(upbeat music) >> You got it, it's theCUBE. We are in Vegas. This is the Cube's live coverage day one of the full event coverage of AWS reInvent '22 from the Venetian Expo Center. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. We love being in Vegas, Dave. >> Well, you know, this is where Super Cloud sort of was born. >> It is. >> Last year, just about a year ago. Steve Mullaney, CEO of of Aviatrix, you know, kind of helped us think it through. And we got some fun stories around. It's happening, but... >> It is happening. We're going to be talking about Super Cloud guys. >> I guess I just did the intro, Steve Mullaney >> You did my intro, don't do it again. >> Sorry I stole that from you, yeah. >> Steve Mullaney, joined just once again, one of our alumni. Steve, great to have you back on the program. >> Thanks for having me back. >> Dave: It's happening. >> It is happening. >> Dave: We talked about a year ago. Net Studio was right there. >> That was two years. Was that year ago, that was a year ago. >> Dave: It was last year. >> Yeah, I leaned over >> What's happening? >> so it's happening. It's happening. You know what, the thing I noticed what's happening now is the maturity of the cloud, right? So, if you think about this whole journey to cloud that has been, what, AWS 12 years. But really over the last few years is when enterprises have really kind of joined that journey. And three or four years ago, and this is why I came out of retirement and went to Aviatrix, was they all said, okay, now we're going to do cloud. You fast forward now three, four years from now, all of a sudden those five-year plans of evacuating the data center, they got one year left, two year left, and they're going, oh crap, we don't have five years anymore. We're, now the maturity's starting to say, we're starting to put more apps into the cloud. We're starting to put business critical apps like SAP into the cloud. This is not just like the low-hanging fruit anymore. So what's happening now is the business criticality, the scale, the maturity. And they're all now starting to hit a lot of limits that have been put into the CSPs that you never used to hit when you didn't have business critical and you didn't have that scale. They were always there. The rocks were always there. Just it was, you never hit 'em. People are starting to hit 'em now. So what's happening now is people are realizing, and I'm going to jump the gun, you asked me for my bumper sticker. The bumper sticker for Aviatrix is, "Good enough is no longer good enough." Now it's funny, it came in a keynote today, but what we see from our customers is it's time to upgrade the native constructs of networking and network security to be enterprise-grade now. It's no longer good enough to just use the native constructs because of a lack of visibility, the lack of controls, the lack of troubleshooting capabilities, all these things. "I now need enterprise grade networking." >> Let me ask you a question 'cause you got a good historical perspective on the industry. When you think about when Maritz was running VMWare. He was like any app, he said basically we're building a software mainframe. And they kind of did that, right? But then they, you know, hit the issue with scale, right? And they can't replicate the cloud. Are there things that we can draw from that experience and apply that to the cloud? What's the same, what's different? >> Oh yeah. So, 1992, do you remember what happened in 1992? I do this, weird German software company called SAP >> Yeah, R3. announced a release as R/3. Which was their first three-tier client-server application of SAP. Before that it ran on mainframes, TCP/IP. Remember that Protocol War? Guess what happened post-1992, everybody goes up like this. Infrastructure completely changes. Cisco, EMC, you name it, builds out these PCE client-server architectures. The WAN changes, MPLS, the campus, everything's home running back to that data center running SAP. That was the last 30 years ago. Great transformation of SAP. They've did it again. It's called S/4Hana. And now it's running and people are switching to S/4Hana and they're moving to the cloud. It's just starting. And that is going to alter how you build infrastructure. And so when you have that, being able to troubleshoot in hours versus minutes is a big deal. This is business critical, millions of dollars. This is not fun and games. So again, back to my, what was good enough for the last three or four years for enterprises no longer good enough, now I'm running business critical apps like SAP, and it's going to completely change infrastructure. That's happening in the cloud right now. And that's obviously a significant seismic shift, but what are some of the barriers that customers have been able to eliminate in order to get there? Or is it just good enough isn't good enough anymore? >> Barriers in terms of, well, I mean >> Lisa: The adoption. Yeah well, I mean, I think it's all the things that they go to cloud is, you know, the complexity, really, it's the agility, right? So the barrier that they have to get over is how do I keep the developer happy because the developer went to the cloud in the first place, why? Swipe the credit card because IT wasn't doing their job, 'cause every time I asked them for something, they said no. So I went around 'em. We need that. That's what they have to overcome in the move to the cloud. That is the obstacle is how do I deliver that visibility, that control, the enterprise, great functionality, but yet give the developer what they want. Because the minute I stop giving them that swipe the card operational model, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to go around me again and I can't, and the enterprise can't have that. >> That's a cultural shift. >> That's the main barrier they've got to overcome. >> Let me ask you another question. Is what we think of as mission critical, the definition changing? I mean, you mentioned SAP, obviously that's mission critical for operations, but you're also seeing new applications being developed in the cloud. >> I would say anything that's, I call business critical, same thing, but it's, business critical is internal to me, like SAP, but also anything customer-facing. That's business critical to me. If that app goes down or it has a problem, I'm not collecting revenue. So, you know, back 30 years ago, we didn't have a lot of customer-facing apps, right? It really was just SAP. I mean there wasn't a heck of a lot of cust- There were customer-facing things. But you didn't have all the digitalization that we have now, like the digital economy, where that's where the real explosion has come, is you think about all the customer-facing applications. And now every enterprise is what? A technology, digital company with a customer-facing and you're trying to get closer and closer to who? The consumer. >> Yeah, self-service. >> Self-service, B2C, everybody wants to do that. Get out of the middle man. And those are business critical applications for people. >> So what's needed under the covers to make all this happen? Give us a little double click on where you guys fit. >> You need consistent architecture. Obviously not just for one cloud, but for any cloud. But even within one cloud, forget multicloud, it gets worst with multicloud. You need a consistent architecture, right? That is automated, that is as code. I can't have the human involved. These are all, this is the API generation, you've got to be able to use automation, Terraform. And all the way from the application development platform you know, through Jenkins and all other software, through CICD pipeline and Terraform, when you, when that developer says, I want infrastructure, it has to go build that infrastructure in real time. And then when it says, I don't need it anymore it's got to take it away. And you cannot have a human involved in that process. That's what's completely changed. And that's what's giving the agility. And that's kind of a cloud model, right? Use software. >> Well, okay, so isn't that what serverless does, right? >> That's part of it. Absolutely. >> But I might still want control sometimes over the runtime if I'm running those mission critical applications. Everything in enterprise is a heterogeneous thing. It's like people, people say, well there's going to, the people going to repatriate back to on-prem, they are not repatriating back to on-prem. >> We were just talking about that, I'm like- >> Steve: It's not going to happen, right? >> It's a myth, it's a myth. >> And there's things that maybe shouldn't have ever gone into the cloud, I get that. Look, do people still have mainframes? Of course. There's certain things that you just, doesn't make sense to move to the new generation. There were things, certain applications that are very static, they weren't dynamic. You know what, keeping it on-prem it's, probably makes sense. So some of those things maybe will go back, but they never should have gone. But we are not repatriating ever, you know, that's not going to happen. >> No I agree. I mean, you know, there was an interesting paper by Andreessen, >> Yeah. >> But, I mean- >> Steve: Yeah it was a little self-serving for some company that need more funding, yeah. You look at the numbers. >> Steve: Yeah. >> It tells the story. It's just not happening. >> No. And the reason is, it's that agility, right? And so that's what people, I would say that what you need to do is, and in order to get that agility, you have to have that consistency. You have to have automation, you have to get these people out of the way. You have to use software, right? So it's that you have that swipe the card operational model for the developers. They don't want to hear the word no. >> Lisa: Right. >> What do you think is going to happen with AWS? Because we heard, I don't know if you heard Selipsky's keynote this morning, but you've probably heard the hallway talk. >> Steve: I did, yeah. >> Okay. You did. So, you know, connecting the dots, you know doubling down on all the primitives, that we expected. We kind of expected more of the higher level stuff, which really didn't see much of that, a little bit. >> Steve: Yeah. So, you know, there's a whole thing about, okay, does the cloud get commoditized? Does it not? I think the secret weapon's the ecosystem, right? Because they're able to sell through with guys like you. Make great margins on that. >> Steve: Yeah, well, yeah. >> What are your thoughts though on the future of AWS? >> IAS is going to get commoditized. So this is the fallacy that a lot of the CSPs have, is they thought that they were going to commoditize enterprise. It never happens that way. What's going to happen is infrastructure as a service, the lower level, which is why you see all the CSPs talking about what? Oracle Cloud, industry cloud. >> Well, sure, absolutely, yeah. >> We got to get to the apps, we got to get to SAP, we got to get to all that, because that's not going to get commoditized, right. But all the infrastructural service where AWS is king that is going to get commoditized, absolutely. >> Okay, so, but historically, you know Cisco's still got 60% plus gross margins. EMC always had good margin. How pure is the lone survivor in Flash? They got 70% gross margins. So infrastructure actually has always been a pretty good business. >> Yeah that's true. But it's a hell of a lot easier, particularly with people like Aviatrix and others that are building these common architectural things that create simplicity and abstract the way the complexities of underneath such that we allow your network to run an AWS, Azure, Google, Oracle, whatever, exactly the same. So it makes it a hell of a lot easier >> Dave: Super cloud. >> to go move. >> But I want to tap your brain because you have a good perspective of this because servers used to be a great margin business too on-prem and now it's not. It's a low margin business 'cause all the margin went to Intel. >> Yeah. But the cloud guys, you know, AWS in particular, makes a ton of dough on servers, so, or compute. So it's going to be interesting to see over time if that gets com- that's why they're going so hard after silicon. >> I think if they can, I think if you can capture the workload. So AWS and everyone else, as another example, this SAP, they call that a gravity workload. You know what gravity workload is? It's a black hole. It drags everything else with it. If you get SAP or Oracle or a mainframe app, it ain't going anywhere. And then what's going to happen is all your other apps are going to follow it. So that's what they're all going to fight for, is type of app. >> You said something earlier about, forget multicloud, for a moment, but, that idea of the super cloud, this abstraction layer, I mean, is that a real business value for customers other than, oh I got all these clouds, I need 'em to work together. You know, from your perspective from Aviatrix perspective, is it an opportunity for you to build on top of that? Or are you just looking at, look, I'm going to do really good work in AWS, in Azure? Now we're making the same experience. >> I hear this every single day from our customers is they look and they say, good enough isn't good enough. I've now hit the point, I'm hitting route limitations. I'm hitting, I'm doing things manually, and that's fine when I don't have that many applications or I don't have mission critical. The dogs are eating the dog food, we're going into the cloud and they're looking and then saying this is not an operational model for me. I've hit the point where I can't keep doing this, I can't throw bodies at this, I need software. And that's the opportunity for us, is they look and they say, I'm doing it in one cloud, but, and there's zero chance I'm going to be able to figure that out in the two or three other clouds. Every enterprise I talk to says multicloud is inevitable. Whether they're in it now, they all know they're going to go, because it's the business units that demand it. It's not the IT teams that demand it, it's the line of business that says, I like GCP for this reason. >> The driver's functionality that they're getting. >> It's the app teams that say, I have this service and GCP's better at it than AWS. >> Yeah, so it's not so much a cost game or the end all coffee mug, right? >> No, no. >> Google does this better than Microsoft, or better than- >> If you asked an IT person, they would rather not have multicloud. They actually tried to fight it. No, why would you want to support four clouds when you could support one right? That's insane. >> Dave and Lisa: Right. If they didn't have a choice and, and so it, the decision was made without them, and actually they weren't even notified until day before. They said, oh, good news, we're going to GCP tomorrow. Well, why wasn't I notified? Well, we're notifying you now. >> Yeah, you would've said, no. >> Steve: This is cloud bottle, let's go. >> Super cloud again. Did you see the Berkeley paper, sky computing I think they call it? Down at Berkeley, yep Dave Linthicum from Deloitte. He's talking about, I think he calls it meta cloud. It's happening. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> It's happening. >> No, and because customers, customers want that. They... >> And talk about some customer example or two that you think really articulates the value of why it's happening and the outcomes that it's generating. >> I mean, I was just talking to Lamb Weston last night. So we had a reception, Lamb Weston, huge, frozen potatoes. They serve like, I dunno, some ungodly percentage of all the french fries to all the fast food. It's unbelievable what they do. Do you know, they have special chemicals they put on the french fries. So when you get your DoorDash, they stay crispy longer. They've invented that patented it. But anyway, it's all these businesses you've never heard of and they do all the, and again, they're moving to SAP or they're actually SAP in the cloud, they're one of the first ones. They did it through Accenture. They're pulling it back off from Accenture. They're not happy with the service they're getting. They're going to use us for their networking and network security because they're going to get that visibility and control back. And they're going to repatriate it back from a managed service and bring it back and run it in-house. And the SAP basis engineers want it to happen because they see the visibility and control that the infrastructure guy's going to get because of us, which leads to, all they care about is uptime and performance. That's it. And they're going to say the infrastructure team's going to lead to better uptime and better performance if it's running on Aviatrix. >> And business performance and uptime, business critical >> That is the business. That is the business. >> It is. So what are some of the things next coming down the pike from Aviatrix? Any secret sauce you can share? >> Lot of secrets. So, two secrets. One, the next thing people really want to do, embedded network security into the network. We've kind of talked about this. You're going to be seeing some things from us. Where does network security belong? In the network. Embedded in the fabric of the network, not as this dumb device called the next-gen firewall that you steer traffic to. It has to be into the fabric of what we do, what we call airspace. You're going to see us talk about that. And then the next thing, back to the maturity of the cloud, as they build out the core, guess what they're doing? It's this thing called edge, Dave, right? And guess what they're going to do? It's not about connecting the cloud to the edge to the cloud with dumb things like SD-WAN, right? Or SaaS. It's actually the other way around. Go into the cloud, turn around, look out at the edge and say, how do I extend the cloud out to the edge, and make it look like a VPC. That's what people are doing. Why, 'cause I want the operational model. I want all the things that I can do in the cloud out at the edge. And everyone knows it's been in networking. I've been in networking for 37 years. He who wins the core does what? Wins the edge, 'cause that's what happens. You do it first in the core and then you want one architecture, one common architecture, one consistent way of doing everything. And that's going to go out to the edge and it's going to look like a VPC from an operational model. >> And Amazon's going to support that, no doubt. >> Yeah, I mean every, you know, every, and then it's just how do you want to go do that? And us as the networking and network security provider, we're getting dragged to the edge by our customer. Because you're my networking provider. And that means, end to end. And they're trying to drag us into on-prem too, yeah. >> Lot's going on, you're going to have to come back- >> Because they want one networking vendor. >> But wait, and you say what? >> We will never do like switches and any of the keep Arista, the Cisco, and all that kind of stuff. But we will start sucking in net flow. We will start doing, from an operational perspective, we will integrate a lot of the things that are happening in on-prem into our- >> No halfway house. >> Copilot. >> No halfway house, no two architectures. But you'll take the data in. >> You want one architecture. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, totally. >> Right play. >> Amazing stuff. >> And he who wins the core, guess what's more strategic to them? What's more strategic on-prem or cloud? Cloud. >> It flipped three years ago. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So he who wins in the clouds going to win everywhere. >> Got it, We'll keep our eyes on that. >> Steve: Cause and effect. >> Thank you so much for joining us. We've got your bumper sticker already. It's been a great pleasure having you on the program. You got to come back, there's so, we've- >> You posting the bumper sticker somewhere? >> Lisa: It's going to be our Instagram. >> Oh really, okay. >> And an Instagram sto- This is new for you guys. Always coming up with new ideas. >> Raising the bar. >> It is, it is. >> Me advance, I mean, come on. >> I love it. >> All right, for our guest Steve Mullaney and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

[Music] we're here with steve melanie the president and ceo of aviatrix steve john and i started this whole super cloud narrative as a way to describe that something different is happening specifically within the aws ecosystem but more broadly across the cloud landscape at re invent last year you and i spoke on the cube and you said one of your investors guy named nick sterile said to you at the show it's happening steve welcome to the cube what's happening what did nick mean by that yeah we were we were just getting ready to go on and i leaned over and he looked at me and he whispered in my ear and said it's happening he said it just like that and and you're right it was it was kind of funny and we talked about that and what he means is enterprises you know this is why i went to aviatrix three and a half years ago is the the the flip switch for enterprises and they said now we mean it we've been talking about cloud for 12 years or 15 years now we mean it we are digitally transforming we are the movement to cloud is going to make that happen and oh by the way of course it's multi-cloud because enterprises put workloads where they run best where they have the best security the best performance the best cost and the business is driving this transformation and they decide that i'm going to use that azure and another business unit decides i'm using google and another one says i'm using aws and so of course it's going to be multi-cloud and i think we're going to start seeing actual multi-cloud applications once that infrastructure and you know you call it the super cloud once that starts getting built developers are going to go wait a minute so i can pick this feature from google and and that service from azure and that service from aws easily without any hesitation once that happens they're going to start really developing today there aren't multi-cloud applications but but but the what's happening is the enterprise embracing public cloud they're using multiple clouds many of them call it four plus one right they're four different public clouds plus what they have on prem that to me is what's happening i am now re-architecting my enterprise infrastructure from applications all the way down to the network and i am embracing uh uh public clouds in that in that process so i mean you nailed us so many things in there i mean digitally transforming to me this is the digital transformation it's leveraging embracing the capex from the hyperscalers now you know people in the industry we're not trying to do what gartner does and create a new category per se but we do use super cloud as a metaphor so i don't expect necessarily vendors to use it or not but but i and i get that but when you talk about multi-cloud what specifically is new in other words what you touched on some of this stuff what constitutes a modern multi-cloud or what we would call a super cloud you know network architecture what are the salient attributes yeah i would say today so two years ago there was no such thing even as multiple clouds it was aws let's be clear everything was aws and for people to even back then two three years ago to even envision that there would be anything else other than aws people couldn't even envision now people kind of go yeah that was done we now see that we're going to use multiple clouds we're going to use azure we're going to use gcp and we're going to use this and we'll guess we're going to use oracle and even ollie cloud we're going to use five or four or five different public clouds what's but that would be i think of as multiple clouds but from an i.t perspective they need to be able to support all those clouds in these shared services and what they're going to do i actually think we're starting and you may have hit on something in the super cloud or i know you've talked about metacloud that that's got bad connotations for facebook i know everybody's like no please not another meta thing but there is that concept of this abstracted layer above you know writing we call it you know altitude you know aviatrix everything's you know riding above the clouds right that that that common abstracted layer this application infrastructure that runs the application that rides above all the different public clouds and i think once we do that you know dave what's going to happen is i think really what's going to happen is you're going to start seeing these these multi-cloud applications which to my knowledge really doesn't exist today i i think that might be the next phase and in order for that to happen you have to have all of the infrastructure be multi-cloud meaning not just networking and network security from from from aviation but you need snowflake you need hashtag you need datadog you need all the new horsemen of the new multi-cloud which isn't the old guys right this is all new people aviatrix dashie snowflake datadonk you name it that are going to be able to deliver all this multi-cloud cross-cloud wherever you want to talk about it such that application development and deployment can happen seamlessly and frictionlessly across multi-cloud once that happens the entire stack then you're going to start seeing and that to me starts enabling this what you guys call you know the super cloud the meta cloud the whatever cloud but that then rides above all the individual clouds that that's going to start getting a whole new realm of application development in my mind so we've got some work to do to basic do some basic blocking and tackling then the application developers can really build on top of that so so some of the skeptics on on this topic would ask how do you envision this changing networking versus it just being a bolt-on to existing fossilized network infrastructure in other words yeah how do we get from point a where we are today to point b you know so-called networking so we can actually build those uh super cloud applications yeah so you know what it is it's interesting because it goes back to my background at nasira and what we used to talk about then it isn't about managing complexity it's about creating simplicity it's very different and when you put the intelligence into the software right this is what computer science is all about we're turning networking into computer science when you create an abstraction layer we are not just an overlay day we dave we actually integrate in with the native services of the cloud we are not managing the complexity of these multi-clouds we are using it you know controlling the native constructs adding our own intelligence to this and then creating what is basically simplification for the people above it so we're simplifying things not just managing the complexity that's how you get the agility for cloud that's how you get to be able to do this because if all you are is a veneer on top of complexity you're just hiding complexity you're not creating simplicity and what happens is it actually probably gets more complex because if all you're doing is hiding the bad stuff you're not getting rid of it i love that i love that we're doing that at the networking and network security layer you're going to see snowflake and datadog and other people do it at their layers you know i reminds of a conversation i had with cause the one of the founders of pure storage who they're all about simplicity this idea of of creating simplicity versus like you said just creating you know a way to handle the complexity compare you know pure storage with the sort of old legacy emc storage devices and that's what you had you had you you had emc managing the complexity at pure storage disrupting by creating simplicity so what are the challenges of creating that simplicity and delivering that seamless experience that continuous experience across cloud is it engineering is it mindset is it culture is it technology what is it well i mean look at look you see the recession that we're we're hitting you see there is a significant problem that we have in the general it industry right now and it's called skills gap skills shortage it's two problems we don't have enough people and we don't have enough people that know cloud and the reason is everybody on the same tuesday three and a half years ago all said now i mean i'm moving the cloud we're a technology company we don't make sneakers anymore we don't make beer we're a technology company and we're going to digitally transform and we're going to move the cloud guess what three years ago there were probably seven people that understood cloud now everyone on the same tuesday morning all decides to try to hire those same seven people there's just not enough people around so you're going to need software and you're going to have to put the intelligence into the software because you're not going to be able to a hire those people and b even if you hire them you can't keep them as soon as they learn cloud guess what happens dave they're off they're on to the next job at the next highest bidder so how are you going to handle that you have to have software that intelligent software that is going to simplify things for you we have people managing massive multi-cloud network and network security people with two people on-prem they got hundreds right you it's not about taking that complex model that it had on-prem and jam it into the cloud you don't have the people to do it and you're not going to get the people to do it you know i want to ask you yeah so i want to ask you about the go to market challenges because we our industry gets a bad rap for for selling we're really good at selling and then but but actually delivering what we sell sometimes we fall down there so so i love tom sweet as cfo of of dell he talks about the the say do ratio uh how that's actually got to be low but you know but you know what i mean uh the math the fraction guy right so but do do what you say you're going to do are there specific go to market challenges related to this type of cross cloud selling where you can set you have to set the customer's expectations because what you're describing is not going to happen overnight it's a journey but how do you handle that go to market challenge in terms of setting those customer expectations and actually delivering what you say you can sell and selling enough to actually have a successful business um so i think everything's outside in so so i think the the what really is exciting to me about this cloud computing model that with the transformation that we're going through is it is business-led and it is led by the ceo and it is led by the business units they run the business it is all about agility is about enabling my developers and it's all about driving the business market share revenue all these kind of things you know the last transformation of mainframe to on to pc client server was led by technologists it wasn't led by the business and it was it was really hard to tie that to the business so then so this is great because we can look at the initiatives you can look at the the the initiatives of the ceo in your company and now as an i.t person you can tie to that and they're going to have two or three or four initiatives and you can actually map it to that so that's where we start is let's look at what the c your ceo cares about he cares about this he cares about that he cares about driving revenue he cares about agility of getting new applications out to the market sooner to get more revenue there's this and oh by the way transfer made transforming your infrastructure to the cloud is the number one thing so it's all about agility so guess what you need to be able to respond to that immediately because tomorrow the business is going to go to you and say great news dave we're moving to gcp wait what no one told me about that well we're telling you now and uh you need to be ready tomorrow and if you're sitting there and you're tied to the low-level constructs and all you know is aws well i don't have those people and even if i have even if i could hire them i'm not allowed to because i can't hire anybody how am i going to respond to the business and the needs of the business now all of a sudden i'm in the way as the infrastructure team of the ceo's goals because we decided we need to we need to get the ai capabilities of gcp and we're moving to gcp or i just did a big deal with gcp and uh miraculously they said i need to run on gcp right i did a big deal with google right guess what comes along with that oh you're moving to gcp great the business says we're moving to gcp and the i.t guys are sitting there going well no one told me well sorry so it's all about agility it's all about that and the and and complexity is the killer to agility this is all about business they're going to come to you and say we just acquired a company we need to integrate them oh but they got they use the same ip address range as we do there's overlapping ips and oh by the way they're in a different cloud how do i do that no one cares the business doesn't care they're like me they're very impatient get it done or we'll find someone who will yeah so you've got to get ahead of that and so when we in terms of when we talk to customers that's what we do this isn't just about defenses this is about making you get promoted making you do good for your company such that you can respond to that and maybe even enable the company to go do that like we're going to enable people to do true multi-cloud applications because the infrastructure has to come first right you you put the foundation in your big skyscraper like the crew behind me and the plumbing before you start building the floors right so infrastructure comes first then comes then comes the applications yeah so you know again some people call it super cloud like us multi-cloud 2.0 but the the real mega trend that i see steve and i'd love you to bottom line this and bring us home is you know andreessen's all companies are software companies it's like version 2.0 of that and the applications that are going to be built on that top this tie into the digital transformations it was goldman it's jpmc it's walmart it's capital one b of a oracle's acquisition of cerner is going to be really interesting to see these super clouds form within industries bringing their data their tooling and their specific software expertise built on top of that hyperscale infrastructure and infrastructure for companies like yours so bottom line is stephen steve what's the future of cloud how do you see it the future is n plus one so two years ago people had one plus one i had what i had on prem and then what i had in aws they today if you talk to an enterprise they'll have what they call four plus one right which is four public clouds plus what i have on prem it's going to n plus one right and what's going to happen is exactly what you said you're going to have industry clouds you're going to the the multi-cloud aspect of it is going to end it's not going to go from four to one some people think oh it's not going to be four it's going down to one or two bs it's going to end it's going to a lot as they start extending to the edge and they start integrating out to the to the branch offices it's not going to be about that branch offer so that edge iot or edge computing or data centers or campus connecting into the cloud it's going to be the other way around the cloud is going to extend to those areas and you're going to have ai clouds you know whether it's you know ultra beauty who's a customer of ours who's starting to roll out ar and vr out to their retail stores to show you know makeup and this and the other thing these are new applications transformations are always driven by new applications that don't exist this isn't about lift and shift of the existing applications the 10x tam in this market is going to becomes all the new things that's where the explosion is going to happen and you're going to see end level those those branch offices are going to look like clouds and they're going to need to be stitched together and treated like one infrastructure so it's going to go from four plus one to n plus one and that's what you're gonna want as an enterprise i'm gonna want n clouds so we're gonna see an explosion it's not going to be four it's going to be end now at the end underneath all of that will be leveraging and effectively commoditizing the existing csps yeah and but you're going to have an explosion of people commoditizing them and just like the goldmans and the industry clubs are going to do they're going to build their own eye as well right no way no way it's that's what's going to happen it's going to be a 10x on what we saw last decade with sas it's all going to happen around clouds and supercloud steve malini thanks so much for coming back in the cube and helping us sort of formulate this thinking i mean it really started with with with you and myself and john and nick and really trying to think this through and watching this unfold before our eyes so great to have you back thank you yeah it's fun thanks for having me are you welcome but keep it right there for more action from super cloud 22 be right back [Music] you

>>We're back in Boston, the Cube's coverage of AWS reinforced 2022. My name is Dave ante. Steve Malanney is here as the CEO of Aviatrix longtime cube alum sort of collaborator on super cloud. Yeah. Uh, which we have an event, uh, August 9th, which you guys are participating in. So, um, thank you for that. And, yep. Welcome to the cube. >>Yeah. Thank you so great to be here as >>Always back in Boston. Yeah. I'd say good show. Not, not like blow me away. We were AWS, um, summit in New York city three weeks ago. I >>Took, heard it took three hours to get in >>Out control. I heard, well, there were some people two I, maybe three <laugh>, but there was, they expected like maybe nine, 10,000, 19,000 showed up. Now it's a free event. Yeah. 19,000 people. >>Oh, I didn't know it >>Was that many. It was unbelievable. I mean, it was packed. Yeah. You know, so it's a little light here and I think it's cuz you know, everybody's down the Cape, >>There are down the Cape, Rhode Island that's after the fourth. The thing is that we were talking about this. The quality of people are pretty good though. Yeah. Right. This is there's no looky lose it's everybody. That's doing stuff in cloud. They're moving in. This is no longer, Hey, what's this thing called cloud. Right. I remember three, four years ago at AWS. You'd get a lot of that, that kind of stuff. Some the summit meetings and things like that. Now it's, we're a full on deployment mode even >>Here in 2019, the conversation was like, so there's this shared responsibility model and we may have to make sure you understand. I mean, nobody's questioning that today. Yeah. It's more really hardcore best practices and you know how to apply tools. Yeah. You know, dos and don't and so it's a much more sophisticated narrative, I think. Yeah. >>Well, I mean, that's one of the things that Aviatrix does is our whole thing is architecturally. I would say, where does network security belong in the network? It shouldn't be a bolt on it. Shouldn't be something that you add on. It should be something that actually gets integrated into the fabric of the network. So you shouldn't be able to point to network security. It's like, can you point to the network? It's everywhere. Point to air it's everywhere. Network security should be integrated in the fabric and that wasn't done. On-prem that way you steered traffic to this thing called a firewall. But in the cloud, that's not the right architectural way. It it's a choke point. Uh, operationally adds tremendous amount of complexity, which is the whole reason we're going to cloud in the first place is for that agility and the ability to operationally swipe the card and get our developers running to put in these choke points is completely the wrong architecture. So conversations we're having with customers is integrate that security into the fabric of the network. And you get rid of all those, all those operational >>Issues. So explain that how you're not a, a checkpoint, but if you funnel everything into one sort of place >>In the, so we are a networking company, uh, it is uh, cloud networking company. So we, we were born in the cloud cloud native. We, we are not some on-prem networking solution that was jammed in the cloud, uh, wrapped >>In stack wrapped >>In, you know, or like that. No, no, no. And looking for wires, right? That's VM series from Palo. It doesn't even know it's in the cloud. Right. It's looking for wires. Um, and of course multicloud, cuz you know, Larry E said now, could you believe that on stage with sat, Nadela talking about multi-cloud now you really know we've crossed over to this is a, this is a thing, whoever would've thought you'd see that. But anyway, so we're networking. We're cloud networking, of course it's multi-cloud networking and we're gonna integrate these intelligent services into the fabric. And one of those is, is networking. So what happens is you should do security everywhere. So the place to do it is at every single point in the network that you can make a decision and you embed it and actually embed it into the network. So it's that when you're making a decision of does that traffic need to go somewhere or not, you're doing a little bit of security everywhere. And so what, it looks like a giant firewall effectively, but it's actually distributed in software through every single point in a network. >>Can I call it a mesh? >>It's kind of a mesh you can think of. Yeah, it's a fabric. >>Okay. It's >>A, it's a fabric that these advanced services, including security are integrated into that fabric. >>So you've been in networking much of >>Your career career, >>37 years. All your career. Right? So yay. Cisco Palo Alto. Nicera probably missing one or two, but so what do you do with all blue coat? Blue coat? What do you do with all that stuff? That's out there that >>Symantics. >>Yes. <laugh> keep going. >>Yeah, I think that's it. That's >>All I got. Okay. So what do you do with all that stuff? That's that's out there, you rip and replace it. You, >>So in the cloud you mean yeah. >>All this infrastructure that's out there. What is that? Well, you >>Don't have it in the right. And so right now what's happening is people, look, you can't change too many things. If you're a human, you know, they always tell you don't change a job, get married and have a kid or something all in the same year. Like they just, just do one of 'em cuz you it's too much. When people move to the cloud, what they do is they tend to take what they do on Preem and they say, look, I'm gonna change one thing. We're gonna go to the cloud, everything else. I'm gonna keep the same. Cuz I don't wanna change three things. So they kind of lift and shift their same mentality. They take their firewalls, their next gen fire. I want them, they take all the things that they currently do. And they say, I'm gonna try to do that in the cloud. >>It's not really the right way to do it. But sometimes for people that are on-prem people, that's the way to get started and I'll screw it up and not screw it up and, and not change too many things. And look, I'm just used to that. And, and then I'll, then I'll go to change things, to be more cloud native, then I'll realize I can get rid of this and get rid of that and do that. But, but that's where people are. The first thing is bring these things over. We help them do that, right? From a networking perspective, I'll make it easier to bring your old security stuff in. But in parallel to that, we start adding things into the fabric and what's gonna happen is eventually we start adding all these things and things that you can't do separately. We start doing anomaly detection. We start doing behavioral analysis. Why? Because the entire network, we are the data plan. We see everything. And so we can start doing things that a standalone device can't do because not all the traffic steered to them. It can only control what's steered to you. And then eventually what's happening is people look at that device. And then they look at us and then they look at the device and they look at us and they go, why do I have both of this? And we go, I don't know. >>You don't need it. >>Well, can I get rid of that other thing? That's a tool. >>Sure. And there's not a trade off. There's not a trade off. You >>Don't have to. No. Now people rid belts and suspenders. Yeah. Cause it's just, who has, who has enough? Who has too much security buddy? They're gonna, they're gonna do belt suspenders. You know anything they can do. But eventually what will happened is they'll look at what we do and they'll go, that's good enough. That happened to me. When I was at Palo Alto networks, we inserted as a firewall. They kept their existing firewall. They had all these other devices and eventually all those went away and you just had a NextGen >>Firewall just through attrition, >>Through Atian. You're like, you're looking, you go, well, that platform is doing all these functions. Same. Thing's gonna happen to us. The platform of networking's gonna do all your network security devices. So any tool or agent or external, you know, device that you have to steer traffic to ISS gonna go away. You're not gonna need it. >>And, and you talking multi-cloud obviously, >>And then don't wanna do the same thing. Whether man Azure, you know the same. >>Yeah. >>Same, same experie architecture, same experience, same set of services. True. Multi-cloud native. Like you, that's what you want. And oh, by the way, skill, gap, skill shortage is a real thing. And it's getting worse. Cause now with the recession, you think you're gonna be able to add more people. Nope. You're gonna have less people. How do I do this? Any multicloud world with security and all this kind of stuff. You have to put the intelligence in the software, not on your people. Right? >>So speaking of recession. Yep. As a CEO of a well funded company, that's got some momentum. How are you approaching it? Do you have like, did you bring in the war time? Conig I mean, you've been through, you know, downturns before. This is you are you >>I'm on war time already. >>Okay. So yeah. Tell me more about how you you're kind of approaching this >>So recession down. So didn't change what we were doing one bit, because I run it that way from the very beginning. So I've been around 30 years, that's >>Told me he he's like me. You know what he said? >>Yeah. Or maybe >>I'm like, I want be D cuz he said, you know, people talk about, you know, only do things that are absolutely necessary during times like this. I always do things that are only, >>That's all I >>Do necessary. Why would you ever do things that aren't necessary? >><laugh> you'd be surprised. Most companies don't. Yeah. Uh, recession's very good for people like snowflake and for us because we run that way anyway. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I, I constantly make decisions that we have to go and dip there's people that aren't right for the business. I move 'em out. Like I don't wait for some like Sequoia stupid rest in peace. The world's ending fire all your people that has no impact on me because I already operated that way. So we, we kind of operate that way and we are, we are like sat Nadel even came out and kind of said, I don't wanna say cloud is recession proof, but it kind of is, is we are so look, our top customer spends 5 million a year. Nothing. We haven't even started yet. David that's minuscule. We're not macro. We're micro 5 million a year for these big enterprises is nothing right. SA Nadel is now starting to count people who do billion dollar agreements with him billion over a period of number of years. Like that's the, the scale we have not even >>Gun billion dollar >>Agreements. We haven't even under begun to understand the scope of what's happening in the cloud. Right. And so yeah, the recession's happening. I don't know. I guess it's impacting somebody. It's not impacting me. It's actually accelerating things because it's a flight to quality and customers go and say, I can't get gear on on-prem anyway, cuz of the, uh, shortage, you know, the, uh, uh, get chips. Um, and that's not the right thing. So guess what the recession says, I'm gonna stop spending more money there and I'm gonna put it into the cloud. >>All right. So you opened up Pandora's box, man. I wanna ask you about your sort of management philosophy. When you come into a company to take, to go lead a company like that. Yeah. How, what, what's your approach to assess the team? Who do you, who do you decide? How do you decide who to keep on the bus? Who to throw off the bus put in the right seats. So how long does that take you? >>Doesn't take long. When I join, we were 30, 30, 8 people. We're now 525. Um, and my view on everything and I I've never met Frank Lubin, but I guarantee you, he has the same philosophy. You have a one year contract me included next year, the board might come to me and say, you were the right CEO for this year. You're not next year. Ben Horowitz taught me that it's a one year contract. There's no multi-year contract. So everybody in the company, including the CEO has a one year >>Contract. So you would say that to the board. Hey, if you can find somebody better, >>If, and, and you know what, I'll be the first one to pull myself, fire myself and say, we're, we're replacing me with somebody better right now. There isn't anybody better. So it's me. So, okay, next year maybe there's somebody better. Or we hit a certain point where I'm not the right guy. I'll I'll, I'll pull myself out as the CEO, but also internally the same thing just because you're the right guy this year. And we hire people for the, what you need to do this year. We're not gonna, we don't hire, oh, like this is the mistake. A lot of companies make, well, we wanna be a billion dollars in sales. So we're gonna go hire some loser from HPE. Who's worked at a company for a billion dollars. And by the way has no idea how they became a billion dollars, right. In revenue or billions of dollars. >>But we're gonna go hire 'em because they must know more than we do. And what every single time you bring them in what you realize, they're idiots. They have no idea how we got to that. And so you, you don't pre-hire for where you want to be. You hire for where you are that year. And then if it's not right, and then if it's not right, you'd be really nice to them. Have great severance packages, be, be respectful for people and be honest with them. I guarantee you Frank, Salman's not, if you're not just have this conversation with a sales guy before I came into here, very straight conversation, Northeast hockey player mentality. We're straight. If you're not working out or I don't think you're doing things right. You're gonna know. And so it's a one year, it's a one year contract. That's what you do. So you don't have time. You don't the luxury of >>Time. So, so that's probably the hardest part of, of any leadership job is, and people don't like confrontation. They like to put it off, but you don't run away from it. It's >>All in a confrontation, right? That's what relationships have built. Why do war buddies hang out with each other? Cuz they've gone through hell, right? It's in the confrontation. And it's, it's actually with customers too, right? If there's an issue, you don't run from it. You actually bring it up in a very straightforward manner and say, Hey, we got a problem, right? They respect you. You respect them, blah, blah, blah. And then you come out of it and go, you know, you have to fight like, look with your wife. You have to fight. If you don't fight, it's not a relationship you've gotta see in that, in that tension is where the relationship's >>Built. See, I should go home and have a fight tonight. You gotta have a fight with your wife. <laugh> you know, you mentioned Satia and Nadella and Larry Ellison. Interesting point. I wanna come back to that. What Oracle did is actually pretty interesting, do we? For their use case? Yeah. You know, it's not your thing. It's like low latency database across clouds. Yeah. Who would ever thought that? But >>We love it. We love it because it drives multi-cloud it drives. Um, and, and, and I actually think we're gonna have multi-cloud applications that are gonna start happening. Um, right now you don't, you have developers that, that, that kind of will use one cloud. But as we start developing and you call it the super cloud, right. When that starts really happening, the infrastructure's gonna allow that networking and network security is that bottom layer that Aviatrix helps once that gets all handled. The app, people are gonna say, so there's no friction. So maybe I can use autonomous database here. I can use this service from GCP. I can use that service and, and put it all into one app. So where's the app run. It's a multicloud app. Doesn't exist today. >>No, that doesn't happen today. >>It's it's happen. It's gonna happen. >>But that's kind of what the vision was. No, seven, eight years ago of what >>It's >>Gonna, that would be, you know, the original premise of hybrid. Right? Right. Um, I think Chuck Hollis, the guy was at EMC at the time he wrote this piece on, he called it private cloud, but he was really describing hybrid cloud application and running in both places that never happened. But it's starting to, I mean, the infrastructure is getting put in place to enable that, I guess is what you're saying. >>Yep. >>Yeah. >>Cool. And multicloud is, is becoming not just four plus one is a lot of enterprises it's becoming plus one, meaning you're gonna have more and more. And then there won't be infrastructure clouds like AWS and so forth, but it's gonna be industry clouds. Right? You've you've talked about that again, back to super clouds. You're gonna have Goldman Sachs creating clouds and you're gonna have AI companies creating clouds. You're gonna have clouds at the edge, you know, for edge computing and all these things all need to be networked with network security integrated. And you mentioned fact >>Aviatrix you mentioned Ben Horowitz, that's mark Andreesen. All, all companies are software companies. All companies are becoming cloud companies. Yeah. Or, or they're missing missing opportunities or they might get disrupted. >>Yeah. Every single company I talk to now, you know, whether you're Heineken, they don't think of themselves as a beer company anymore. We are the most technologically, you know, advanced brewer in the world. Like they all think they're a technology company. Now, whether you're making trucks, whether you're making sneakers, whether you're making beer, you're now a technology company, every single company in >>The world, we are too, we're we're building a media cloud. You're you know, John's, it's a technology company laying that out and yeah. That's we got developers doing that. That's our, that's our future. Yep. You know? Cool. Hey, thanks for coming on, man. Thank you. Great to see you. Thank you for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back right after this short break. It keeps coverage. AWS reinforced 20, 22 from Boston. Keep it right there. >>You tired? How many interviewed.

(bright music) >> Welcome back to AWS re:Invent. You're watching theCUBE. And we're here with Steve Mullaney, who is the president and CEO of Aviatrix. Steve, I got to tell ya, great to see you man. >> We started the whole pandemic, last show we did was with you guys. >> Steve: Don't say we started, we didn't start it. (steve chuckles) >> Right, we kicked it off (all cross talking) >> It's going to be great. >> Our virtual coverage, that hybrid coverage that we did, how ironic? >> Steve: Yeah, was as the world was shutting down. >> So, great to see you face to face. >> Steve: Great to see you too. >> Wow, so you're two years in? >> Steve: Two and a half years yeah. >> Started, the company was standing start $2 billion valuation, raised a bunch of dough. >> Steve: Yeah. >> That's good, you got to feel good about that. >> We were 38 people, two and a half years ago, we're now 400. We had a couple million in ARR, we're now going to be over a 100 million next year, next calendar year, so significant growth. We just raised $200 million, three months ago at a $2 billion valuation. Now have 550 customers, 54 of them are fortune 500, when I started two and a half years ago, we didn't have any fortune 500s, we had probably about a 100 customers. So, massive growth, big growth (indistinct). >> Awesome, I got to ask you, I love to ask CEO's, entrepreneurs, how did you know when to scale? >> You just know it, when you see it. (indistinct) Yeah, there's no formula, you just know it and what you look for is that point where you say, okay, we've now proven the model and until you do that you minimize things and we actually just went through this. We had 12 sales teams, four months ago, we now have 50. 50, five zero and it's that step function as a company, you don't want to linearly grow 'cause you want to hold until you say, it's happening. And then once you say it's happening, okay, the dogs are eating the dog food, this is good then you flip the other way, and then you say, let's grow as fast as we possibly can and that's kind of the mode we're in right now. >> Okay, You've... >> You just know it when you see it. >> Other piece of that is how fast do you scale? And now you're sort of doing that step function as your going. >> Steve: We are going as fast as we possibly can. >> Wow, that's awesome, congratulations and I know you've got to long way to go. So okay, let's talk about the big trends that you're seeing that Aviatrix has taken advantage of, maybe explain a little bit about what you guys do. >> Yeah. So we are, what I like to call Multi- Cloud Native Networking and Network Security. So, if you think of... >> David: What is multicloud native? You got to explain that. >> I got to to explain that. Here's what's happened, it's happening and what I mean by it's happening is, enterprises at two and a half years ago, this is why I joined Aviatrix, all decided for the first time, we mean it now, we are going into Cloud 'cause before that they were just mouthing it. And they said, "We're going into the Cloud." And oh by the way, I knew two and a half years ago of course it was going to be multicloud, 'cause enterprises run workloads where they run best. That's what they do, it's sometimes it's AWS, sometimes it's ads or sometimes it's Google, it's of course going to be multicloud. And so from an enterprise perspective, they love the DevOps, they love the simplicity, the automation, the infrastructure is code, the Terraform, that Cloud operational model, because this is a business transformation, moving to Cloud is not a technology transformation it's the business. It's the CEO saying we are digitizing we have an existential threat to the survival of our company, I want to grow a market share, I want to be more competitive, we're doing this, stop laying across the tracks technology people, will run you over, we're doing this. And so when they do that as an enterprise, I'm BNY Mellon, I'm United Airlines, you name it, your favorite enterprise. I need the visibility and control from a networking and network security perspective like I used to have on-prem. Now I'm not going to do it in the horrible complex operational model the Cisco 1994 data center, do not bring that crap into my wonderful Cloud, so that ain't happening but, all I get from the Native constructs, I don't get enough of that visibility and control, it's a little bit of a black box, I don't get that. So where do I get the best of the Cloud from an operational model, but yet with the visibility and control that I need, that I used to have on-prem from networking network security, that's Aviatrix. And that's where people find us and so from a networking and network security, so that's why I call it multicloud Native because what we do is, create a layer basically an abstraction layer above all the different Clouds, we create one architecture for networking and network security with advanced services not basic services that run on AWS, Azure, Google, Oracle, Ali Cloud, Top Secret Clouds, GovClouds, you name it. And now the customer has one architecture, which is what enterprises want, I want one network, I want one network security architecture, not AWS Native, Azure Native, Google Native. >> David: Right. >> We leverage those native constructs, abstract it, and then provide a single common architecture with demand services, irrespective of what Cloud you're on. >> Dave, I've been saying this for a couple of years now, that Cloud Native... >> Does that make sense Dave? >> Absolutely. >> That abstraction layer, right? And I said, "The guys who do this, who figure this out are going to make a lot of dough." >> Yeah. >> Snowflakes obviously doing it. >> Yeah. >> You guys are doing it, it's the future. >> Yeah. >> And it's really an obvious construct when you look back at the world of call it Legacy IT for a moment... >> Steve: Yeah. >> Because did we have different networks to hookup different things in a data center? >> No, one network. >> One network of course. I don't care if the physical stack comes from Dell, HP or IBM. >> Steve: That's right, I want an attraction layer above that, yeah. >> Exactly. >> So the other thing that happens is, everybody and you'll understand this from being at Oracle, everybody wants to forget about the network. Network security, it's down in the bowels, it's like plumbing, electricity, it's just, it has to be there but people want to forget about it and so you see Datadog, you see Snowflake, you see HashiCorp going IPO in early December. Guess what? That next layer underneath that, I call it the horsemen of the multicloud infrastructure is networking and network security, that's going to be Aviatrix. >> Well, you guys make some announcements recently in that space, every company is a security company but you're really deep into it. >> Well, that's the interesting thing about it. So I said multicloud Native Networking and Network Security, it's integrated, so guess where network security is going to be done in the Cloud? In the network. >> David: Network. >> Yeah in the network. >> What a strange concept but guess what on-prem it's not, you deflect traffic to this thing called a firewall. Well, why was that? I was at Synoptics, I was at Cisco 'cause we didn't care about network security, so that's why firewall companies existed. >> Dave: Right. >> It should be integrated into the infrastructure. So now in the Cloud, your security posture is way worse than it was on-prem. You're connected to the internet by default so guess what? You want your network to do network security, so we announced two things in security; one, we're now a security competency partner for AWS, they do not give that out lightly. We were networks competency four years ago, we're now network security competency. One of the few that are both, they don't do that, that took us nine months of working with them to get there. And they only do that for the people that really are delivering value. And then what we just announced what we call, 'ThreatIQ with ThreatGuard.' So again, built into the network because we are the network, we understand the traffic, we're the control plane and the data plane, we see all traffic. We integrate into the network, we subscribe to threat databases, public databases, where we see what are the malicious IPS. If we have any traffic anywhere in your overall, and this is multicloud, not just AWS, every single Cloud, if we see that malicious traffic going some into IP guess what? It's probably BIT Mining, Bitcoin, crypto mining, it's probably some sort of data ex filtration. It could be some tour thing that you're connected to, whatever it is, you should not have traffic going. And so we do two things we alert and we show you where that all is and then with ThreatGuard, we actually will do a firewall rule right at that gateway, at that point that it's going out and immediately gone. >> You'll take the action. >> We'll take the action. >> Okay. >> And so every single customer, Dave and David, that we've shown this new capability to, it lights up like a Christmas tree. >> Yeah al bet. Okay, but now you've made some controversial statements... >> Steve: Which time? >> Okay, so you said Cisco, I think VMware... >> Dave: He's writing them down. >> I know but I can back it up. >> I think you said the risk, Cisco, VMware and Arista, they're not even in the Cloud conversation now. Arista, Jayshree Ullal is a business hero of mine, so I don't want to... >> Steve: Yeah, mine too. >> I don't want to interrogate her, she's awesome. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But what do you mean by that? Because can't Cisco come at this from their networking perspective and security and bring that in? What do you mean by they're not in the Cloud conversation? >> They're not in the conversation. >> David: Okay, defend that. >> And the reason is they were about four years ago. So when you're four years ago, you're moving into the Cloud, what's the first thing you do? I'm going to grab my CSR and I'm going to try to jam it in the Cloud. Guess what? The CSR doesn't even know it's in the Cloud, it's looking for ports, right? And so what happens is the operational model is horrendous, so all the Cloud people, it just is like oil and water, so they go, oh, that was horrendous. So no one's doing that, so what happens in the Cloud is they realize the number one thing is the Cloud operational model. I need that simplicity, I have to be a single Terraform provider, infrastructure is code. Where do I put my box with my wires? That's what the on-prem hardware people think. >> David: The selling ports your saying? >> The selling boxes. >> David: Yeah. >> And so they'll say, "Oh, we got us software version of it, it runs as a VM, it has no idea it's in the Cloud." It is not Cloud Native, I call that Cloud naive, they don't understand so then the model doesn't work. And so then they say, "Okay, I'm not going to do that." Then the only other thing they can do, is they look at the Cloud providers themselves and they say, "All right, I'm going to use Native constructs, what do you got?" And what happens basically is the Cloud providers say, "Well, we do everything and anything you'll ever need and networking and network security." And the customers, "Oh my God, it's fantastic." Then they try to use it and what they realize is you get very basic level services, and you get no visibility and control because they're a black box, you don't get to go in. How about troubleshooting, Packet Captures, simple things? How about security controls, performance traffic engineering, performance controls, visibility nothing, right? And so then they go, "Oh shit, I'm an enterprise, I'm not just some DevOps Danny three years ago, who was just spinning up workloads and didn't care about security." No, that was the Cloud three years ago. This is now United, BNY, Nike. This is like elite of elite. So when my VC was here, he said, "It's happening." That's what he meant, it's happening. Meaning enterprises, the dogs are eating the dog food and they need visibility and control, they cannot get it from the Cloud providers. >> It's happening in early days Dave. >> So Steve, we're going to stipulate that you can't jam this stuff into Cloud, but those dinosaurs are real and they're there. Explain how you... >> Steve: Well you called them dinosaurs not me but they're roaming the earth and they're going to run out of food pretty soon. (all laughing) The comet hit the earth. >> Hey, they're going to go down fighting. (all laughing) >> But the dinosaurs didn't all die the day after the comet hit the earth... >> Steve: That's right. >> They took awhile. >> Steve: They took a while. >> So, how are you going to saddle them up? That's the question because you're... >> Steve: It's over there walking dead, I don't need to do anything. >> Is it the captain Kirk to con, let them die. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Because you're in the Cloud, you're multicloud... >> Steve: Yeah. >> That's great, but 80% of my IT still on-prem and I still have Cisco switches. Isn't that just not your market or? >> When IBM and DEC did we have to do anything with IBM and DEC in the 90s, early 90s, when we created BC client server, IP architectures? No, they weren't in the conversation. >> David: Yeah. >> So, we dint compete with them, just like whatever they do on-prem, keep doing it, I wish you the best. >> But you need to integrate with them and play with them. >> Steve: No. >> Not at all? >> No, no we integrate, here is the thing that's going to happen, so to the on-prem people, it's all point of reference. They look at Cloud as off-prem, I'm going to take my operational model on-prem and I'm going to push it into the Cloud. And if I push it into multiple Clouds, they're going to call that multicloud, see we are multicloud. You're pushing your operational model into the Cloud. What's happening is Cloud has won, it won two and a half years ago with every enterprise. It's like a rock in the water. And what's going to happen is that operational model is moving out to the edge, it's moving to the branch, it's moving to the data center and it's moving into edge computing. That's what's happening... >> So outpost, so I put an outpost in my data center... >> Outpost looks like... >> Is that Aviatrix? >> Absolutely, we're going to get dragged with that... >> Dave: Okay, alright. >> Because we're the networking and network security provider, and as the company pushes out, that operational model is going to move out, not the existing on-prem OT, IT branch office then pushing in. And so, what's happening is you're coming at it from the wrong perspective. And this wave is just going to push over and so I'm just following behind this wave of AWS and Azure and Google. >> Here's the thing, you can do this and you don't have a bunch of legacy deductible debt... >> Steve: Yeah. >> So you can be Cloud Native, multicloud native, I think you called it? >> Steve: Yeah, yeah. >> I love it, you're building castles on the sand. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Jerry Chen's thing. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Now, the thing is, today's executives, they're not as naive as Ken Olsen, UNIX as, "Snake oil," who would need a PC, so they're not in denial. >> They're probably not in denial, yeah. >> Right, and so they have some resources, so the problem is they can't move as fast as you can. So, you're going to do really well. >> Steve: Yeah. >> I think they'll eventually get there Steve, but you're going to be, I don't know how many, four or five years ahead, that's a nice lead. >> That's a bet I'll take any day. >> David: Then what you don't think they'll ever get there? >> No, 10 years. (steve laughing) >> Okay, but they're not going out of business. >> No, I didn't say that. >> I know you didn't. >> What they're doing, I wish them all the best. >> Because a lot of their customers move... >> I don't compete with them. >> Yeah. We were out of time. >> Yeah. >> What did you mean by AWS is like Sandals? You mean like cool like Sandals? >> Steve: Oh, no, no, no. I don't want to... >> You mean like the vacation place? >> Have you ever been to Sandals? >> I never done it. What do you mean by that? >> There coming, there coming. Which version of sandals (indistinct)? (people cross talking) >> This is for an enterprise by the way, and look, Sandals is great for a lot of people but if you're a Cloud provider, you have to provide the common set of services for the masses because you need to make money. And oh, by the way, when you go to Sandals, go try it, like get a bottle of wine, they say, "We got red wine or white wine?" "Oh, great, what kind of red wine?" "No, red wine and it's in a box." And they hope that you won't know the difference. The problem is some people in enterprises want Four Seasons, so they want to be able to swipe the card and get a good bottle of wine. And so that's the thing with the Cloud, but the Cloud can't offer up a 200 bottle of wine to everybody. My mom loves box wine, so give her box wine. Where ISBs like us come in, is great but complimentary to the Cloud provider for that person who wants that nice bottle of wine because if AWS had to provide all this level of functionality for everybody, their instant sizes would be too big, >> Too much cost for that. (people cross talking) You're right on. And as long as you can innovate fast and stay ahead of that and keep adding value... >> Well, here's the thing, they're not going to do it for multicloud either though. >> David: I wouldn't trust them to do it with multicloud. >> No. >> David: I wouldn't. >> No enterprise would and I don't think they would ever do it anyway. >> That makes sense. Steve, we've got to go man. You're awesome, love to have you on theCUBE, come back anytime. >> Awesome, thank you. >> All right, keep it right there everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. (bright music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 it's virtual this year because of the pandemic. We're not there in person and in real life, we're remote. I'm John for a year hosting the cube or the cube virtual. Um, as we continue to cover the three weeks of AWS reinvent and analyze the keynotes, we bring it in, uh, from our Cuban alumni, uh, network experts. And we have here great guest, Steve Malaney, CEO of Ava Trex, industry executive legend, former entrepreneur had done startups, um, been very, very successful with luminary and Silicon Valley, um, Palo Alto networks and the Sierra Cisco, I me, all the companies you've worked for. Um, Steve, great to see you again. >>Oh yeah. Hey awesome. Even if it's just virtual, John's great to be back in the cube. >>Okay, Steve, what's up? Am I muted? I got you. Okay. >>Gotcha. Oh, okay. I just said it's great. They're great to be back in the cube. >>I had to shut up my volume, got to love live cube TV. Um, I wanted to bring you on, because one, we've been talking with you guys and your company that you're now heading. You came off the board to take the helm of Ava tricks. You really saw the vision early on before the pandemic. We were actually, we did a hybrid event with you guys, a digital hybrid and your vision of multi-cloud and hybrid was pretty much in line with what Andy Jassy. And Amazon's now rolling out, except they're not calling it. Multi-cloud, they're just saying hybrid. But when you factor in the edge, the complexity there, you're really talking multiple environments. So I want to get your take, as you look at what Amazon has done in their announcements, they're continuing to power long. What's your analysis. What's your industry take? >>Yeah, I, I think it's, uh, you know, I think it's great. I think, you know, when we were a year ago, it was just a little over a year ago, we were at a multi-cloud conference and I think people kind of thought, wow, is multicloud something that the vendors are wanting to happen because they don't want to be killed by AWS. And you know, I mean, I saw this two years ago, I call it the Cambridge and explosion to cloud where every enterprise to we are now going to move to cloud. And they had been talking about it for six or seven years, but they didn't really mean it. And two years ago I saw they meant it and I knew what was going to happen. It was going to go multi-cloud they we're going to care about day two operations, visibility, control, security, all the things that enterprises care about. And I think, um, you know, what we've seen really over the last year is AWS and all the other cloud providers recognizing this, that the world is going multicloud. Um, and day two operations matter. You've gotta be able to operationalize this and enterprises. Can't just, it's not just about wiring it and building it up. You got do, you can operate it. And so that's, I think the thing that's really interesting is the maturity of the messaging. I would say from AWS to recognize, um, where enterprises are in their journey. >>You know, Steve, I want to just reflect on something. When I was 19 years old in my first job, uh, in New York, it was on a prime mini computer, my first exposure to the enterprise office and then went and worked for IBM and HP and others. I've been in the, around the enterprise. Let me just go back 10 years in Silicon Valley, you could literally count on one or two hands. The number of enterprise experts out there that you knew of that were out circulating that weren't retired. Um, because it went through this kind of commodity stage of outsource everything kind of down to the bone, you know, just keeping the lights on there. Wasn't really a lot of innovation in the enterprise. Now it's the hottest thing in the world. And you, and you look at what's happening with cloud. They're redefining the enterprise in Andy Jassy said to me, and I'm going to interview him, uh, later this week. And you know, he said, we're done with eyes and pads. We checked that's anything. I say anyone, but he's kind of implying that we did. I, as in pass, we're targeting global it. >>Yeah. Well, you know, >>Now enterprise is super hot and you know, it's, it's a whole nother ball game to restructuring on G >>Yeah, I mean, so I, uh, the AWS is marketing slogan, Mark. My words I'll bet you a hundred bucks within the next year is going to change. They are not going to say go build anymore. Right? Because that's what they're going to say. Go consume because no enterprise wants to build and Oh, by the way, here's the other thing that they're now also figuring out. Cause I know Andy Jassy analysis, there's a skills shortage of cloud, so they don't have the skills at the aptitude, but there's also a people shortage. It's not just the skills, it's the amount of people. They don't have the ability to go deploy this. And they're going to, you're going to need solutions like ABA tricks, abstract the way a lot of the complexities of the underlying clouds and deliver this architecture for people to be able to actually deploy. >>Where is the skill gaps in your opinion, where do you see them? >>You know, I was just talking to a customer yesterday and he said most of my, most of my team are CLI jockeys. And so for networking, that means the CLI the command line interface that a human manipulates to control the Cisco router. That's the old operational model. The model of this, these days are Terraform. You're going to infrastructure is code everything. You need scriptures. You need, you need developers that are going to be driving your infrastructure. And, and, but I can't, I can't fire all these people that I've had in my enterprise for the last 30 years. I got to bring them along. I got to bring them along and the tools and the platforms to be able to go, to go do that. >>Andy's argument and Amazon's position is we eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting and we have all this training and content to bring everyone along. Okay. By that. >>Well, I mean, here's, here's the thing that I think AWS and all the, all the cloud providers are figuring out is the enterprise is a different beast. You know, when you go to a company as AWS and say, Hey, you can get it as long as it's any color you want, as long as it's black. And so guess what, I'm a service. And the beautiful thing is you don't need to know anything about how we do anything and just trust me, it's all going to work that does not go over well with an enterprise because they say, I'm the guy that needs to know I will get fired. If this infrastructure goes down, you know, you saw us East one go down two weeks ago, Google had a outage to two days ago or whatever it was, shit happens. I don't know if I can say that on the cube. >>We're not going to actually see regulated at this point, but who's going to know. >>Um, and you know what? I've got to have that visibility in controls and enterprise, and I need the granular controls and the visibility to troubleshoot and the security controls and the performance controls that I used to have on prem, because I'm a regulated enterprise. I need that visibility and control. And the cloud providers just say, look, I deliver a service and I deliver it to everybody. And it's the same service. And you don't need to know that does not fly with the >>Well, certainly you're seeing more regulated industries. It used to be just public sector. I just talked with Teresa Carlson. She now took over all the industries. So FinTech is regulated. Energy is regulated. Telecom's regulated. The only thing that's not regulated is a VC and startup sectors, right? So there's a >>Well, and, and, and every, every good CIO of an enterprise knows nothing good comes from your, from your infrastructure that gets outsourced. We tried that it doesn't work. Now, maybe in 20 years, I can outsource my infrastructure if I'm the CIO of a major enterprise corporation. But right now I am not outsourcing that I have to have control. Now, am I going to leverage services and basic infrastructure from the cloud providers? Absolutely. I'm not going to build it on my own data centers. That world is over, but what I'm going to maintain is the visibility and control. >>Yeah. And that's what we heard from Verner. Vogel's around observability systems, thinking control versus observability, um, evolvable systems, things like reasoning, um, you know, these are, these are innovations, right? So, so let's get back to that builders thing, because you mentioned that earlier, I think there might be an opportunity. And I think this is where I think Jassy will either look brilliant or it might not pan out. So go big or go home moment. Can Amazon create a market for companies to say, instead of bringing along everybody, I'm going to bring along some people and hire more builders because there's rewards as spoils to be had for those builders. At this point in time, given the pandemic, it's kind of put everything on full display in terms of what to do. What's your thoughts on that? >>I think, I think outside in meaning I, I look at the customer and I, and I sit at the same side of the table as a customer. I think, what did they want? And every enterprise customer right now is building out their PRI it's just like in 1992, when they built out their private infrastructures, global infrastructure, and they did it with on-prem and data centers. I bought my stories, my compute, my networking, my MPLS, and I built my infrastructure. And it was my infrastructure. They're doing the same thing. It's just, they're architecting on top of cloud and they're doing it in a multi-cloud world because they're not going to be locked in to just one cloud. And they're going to have some applications that run better on GCP. Some have better in AWS and some on Oracle, and all of our customers are doing this. And what they want though, is a common infrastructure. That's their architecture and their infrastructure, not an AWS architecture and a Google architecture and an Azure architecture. What architecture, abstracted away above the clouds. That's my architecture. And it's common for my global network that that's what enterprises want to do. And I think each of the individual clouds are going to have to understand that they are a piece of the puzzle. They are not the puzzle. And I think you're going to have to come to that realization. >>I appreciate your expertise and insight into the commentary real quick, last 30 seconds, give a quick plug for Ava tricks. What are you guys doing? What's new cause the quick update. >>I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy just since, uh, I've been the CEO for two years and you know, the, the logos of large enterprise that we're getting right now. My, my Cambrian explosion that I saw two years ago is real, um, more executing on that strategy. It's a, who's who of logos right now. We've got 450 customers now we're, uh, exploding and more importantly, enterprises are now getting that deployment phase. They have, they're done with the architecture phase of, Hey, let me check this whole thing out in cloud. And now they're pushing the button and they're, they're accelerating, which my guess is it's not a coincidence that AWS is now talking about operations. And what Aviatrix does is, is, is, does gives that visibility and control cloud networking, but in a very cloud native way with Terraform simplicity, agility, because agility is part of mission critical infrastructure. Now can't be like it was in 1994 with a Cisco infrastructure where it said, what year do you want your, your, your infrastructure, Mr. Customer? >>Great. And the biggest thing people should pay attention to this year, uh, for around the enterprise dynamics with cloud and scale what's what should people be watching >>In your opinion? Just the continued movement of big enterprises, uh, all into cloud. The center of gravity is now into cloud and, uh, they're going to be completely running away from everything on prem. >>All right. Steven Landy, CEO of VBA tricks, a proven success entrepreneur CEO, back in the two years of the helm, the VBA tricks. Great to see you. I wish we were in person. One of our last events was your altitude event. It's on YouTube. If anyone was interested in watching, we had a great time. Steve, thank you so much for your candid commentary. Yeah. Thanks, John. Okay. I'm Jennifer with the cube. You're watching the cube virtual here on the cube. Thanks for watching..

>>from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering a ws re invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and in along with its ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage in Las Vegas for eight of his re invent 2019 R Seventh year out of the eight years I've had it, we've seen the rise and dominance of Amazon continued to thunder away at the competition span. Their lead printing money stew minimum in my coz right here next to me. I'm John, very extracting from noise. Our next guest, steam A lady who's the presidency of Aviatrix Cube alone was on Tuesdays part of our editorial segment. Who his company or one of his employees going to term. You take the tea at a cloud native cloud naive, which has been going viral. Welcome back to the Cube. Thank you. All right, so let's get into the aviatrix value. Probably wanna get digging more, but first explain what you guys do and what market you're targeting. >>So we do. I would say cloud native, not naive. Cloud native networking that embraces and extends the basic constructs the native constructs of the public clouds, not just a W s, but all the public clouds and builds a multi cloud architecture, networking in security architecture for enterprise customers that that delivers the simplicity and the automation that people want from cloud. That's why they want a cloud native but yet brings along the functionality, the performance and the visibility and control that they had on on Prem. So that kind of taste great less filling, not one of the other. Both. I want the simplicity and automation of anything that expect from the cloud. But I need that enterprise functionality that control the security, the performance that he used to have on Prem because I wasn't doing that for my own health. I need to bring that along. That's what we do. >>What main problem you solving for customers? What's the big pain point? So what are you enabling? >>The big pain point is the center of gravity, as Andy Joshi's talked is moving from on Prem into the cloud. So it's so it's no longer. I mean, data centers aren't going away. They're going to still be there. But the investment architecture is in the cloud and you're going to see the clouds start moving out with their their announcements. You see everything that outposts and on everything else they're doing is taking the architecture moving out. The problem we solve is A W S says to every enterprise customer. We will give you anything and everything you ever need from networking and security. You don't need anybody else. And so so what ends up happening is as enterprises. So for an SNB, that's great. If you've got a few, VP sees life is good. Use all the native stuff from AWS. What happens, though, is your Qualcomm or your USA or your new name it big 50 year old 100 year old enterprise. You have complex networking and security demands. You go to the cloud. There's so many limitations of what the native constructs of all the clouds could do. You start realizing, okay, I need Maur. And so we're very complimentary to AWS. We sit on top of that. We leverage those basic constructs. We program those contracts and then we extend that functionality to deliver the functionality that they need. >>That's awesome, stupid when I want to dig into that, but I want to first get to the hard news you guys have news here at reinvent? What's the big news story that you guys were putting out there? Two >>announcements and actually goes perfectly with the way the world's going and also with the embrace and extend of a W s. So the first is we introduced what we call aviatrix Cloud win. So they announced Transit Gateway Network manager with accelerated VPN leveraging global accelerator as just a way to bring in basically embraced branch offices into the cloud. So if you think of SD win in that market, if your if your center of gravity is on Prem in a data center on pls is horrible, you needed a better way to do branch office connectivity. SC wait is fantastic, and it's a great, optimal way to get back to that data center. Well, as the center of gravity moves into the cloud, their data centers in the cloud. I just need to get better optimal access performance in late and see into a W s because that's the center of gravity. So AWS with the global accelerator allows youto get on one of their 250 pops around the world as quickly as possible. So if you're in Singapore, get on that pop VPN in, and then you go across the global backbone of AWS all the way out to that BBC in Virginia. It's beautiful, because guess what? That is the most optimal way to get there instead of vpc to vpc across the Internet right on the AWS backbone. Well, Steve, it's fascinating stuff because if you look at the traditional network, it was I knew the knobs and how I need to get everything to work. But the big challenge for most network people is most of the network that they're responsible for. They can't touch it. That's right. They can adjust it. So are we recreating some of the environment? Or how? Because clubs supposed to be simple? Well, that's easy, but it needs to meet the enterprise requirements. Help that network administrator there there, sometimes going away to the cloud administrator. You still networkings tough and therefore, how do we make that? That's part of what we do is that's the other thing that we solve is people think they go to the cloud and they think, Oh, go build. I don't want to build anything. I want to consume. It's still difficult. We come in and abstract away a lot of the details for them such that we deliver that service on the cloud win. The other thing that we do again, back to embracing and extending. What do you What? What router is out in that branch office 87% of the time. Sisko, right? I mean, course it is. So the S D wearing guys will go in and say, We'll rip that box out and put in another little box like a 20,000 branches. I'm not ripping out anything, right? That's very painful. So with our cloud win, we can orchestrate and reconfigure the Sisko. All of our engineers came from Cisco. So any Cisco IOS router out there, we can orchestrate and reconfigure to set up the VPN automatically through our orchestrator so that when you don't rip and replace out that Roger that's existing there. So now AWS loves it because that's the last piece of friction. They want no friction, and it's always in that physical to cloud transition There. All the complexity is, and by enabling their network manager and an accelerated VPN and global accelerated to use the existing Cisco. Roger, that's out there. No one else does that Cisco doesn't do that. We're the only ones. So when you embrace a native construct, what's the native construct in the branch office? B, G P. And Cisco IOS. We embrace it and then and then enhance it and make it better. >>Are you only on Cisco about June 1st? >>Wait. Now it's just go. Francisco's 87% >>of every bridge your software abstraction software across. And you you basically change the game with SD. Win a little bit, you modernize >>It s t win is great for the old way of doing networking. When you look for the next five years, you're still gonna need SD went. It's a bubble market. It's like when optimization us riverbed. If when optimization is a great market, it was for a while, just like SC win. But that's kind of the old way. But Maur Maura, what you're gonna find is what Where my branches need to connect to is in the cloud. And if you do that, you don't need esti win. You just need better connectivity. Tate of us provide. >>I gotta ask you the question about the cloud naive because there's a lot of old school I t people who still think there's food in the data center. Still, action there on box makers are all in the vendor side supplying boxes. They're still want to supply boxes, right? So as those old guys and gals do their thing, they're stuck in their ways, right? That's friction. Total gas. He talks about the transformation as new leadership. What has to change in that old world? What should those C I ose and CEOs tell their their staff? And what should the staff do themselves? >>I actually think the customers air there. I think the vendors are that the vendors are the one that aren't They're the ones who are cloud naive. They actually don't even know what they don't know. The customers are the ones they say, Oh, no, And this is the whole shift that Josh was talking about business transformation. They understand. And they are bringing along all their people and they have some people that are probably further along and experts in AWS. But they absolutely number one requirement for them is we've got to bring along the people they don't want to leave them behind and say, You get to work on the old data center and these guys are gonna work in Cloud. They're bringing them all in. >>Talk about your customers who's buying from you? What's it look like? What kind of scope do you have? A customer base? >>It's funny. It's It's It's all the old networking guys. It is not. It's not developers signing that. It's it's It's old. I t. Now they don't want to do it the old way. They want to do it the new cloud way. But these guys understand BDP. They understand networking, and they're in charge now. And so it's like because it's gotten so serious for enterprises. This the networking team, the security team it is. It is I t that is running this, so that's a big company. Small companies, we get him. All right, Steve, I want to make sure I understand this because when I hear cod Native, I really think a lot about that application. Mind shift. Yeah, Micro Service is our protector, and that's on it for sure. Networking. Unfortunately, for the most part, it's nothing. Bites are going through the pipes, and I haven't really thought about that. So you know, it's not just because it's cloud but cloud native and therefore things like your container and doctors Dr. Rise thing. This is what this world is built for that your solution is solving for yes. So I'll give you a perfect example. So So we help. We actually helped a dhobi us come out with T g. W. Last year, Cheri, I found, was on stage with Day Brown and the networking keynote launching T g w whenever Great. Of course, before that, you were just doing bpc the vpc peering It was a horrible mess. So you need a transit architecture. So they came out with T g w Fantastic. So we embrace and extend T g w. So the problem is, they come out with T g. W. But guess what a Doris doesn't do. Don't propagate routes to spoke VP sees. Okay, so how did the routes get propagated? Well, you have a person. They need manual. If there's an update on the on from you manually update the routes. Well, that might work. If you've got three. VP sees again. You're an SNB. But I'm an enterprise. I got 3000 vpc That is not gonna work. So cloud native we are We are not just sitting on top of AWS. We are in the matrix we are in. We understand natively. So our central control, it will actually like we're not. There's no b g p running at that layer, but our central control it will push routes an update, routing tables everywhere. It needs to be learned. The routes from Amman Prem push it where it needs to be, and then everything automatically works. Yeah, it reminds me, you know, we had more than a decade ago. We went from all the north south traffic to the East west, propagated by VM. Yes, is an order of magnitude 8 12 and know that this cloud environment people can't do it. There's not enough people. I don't have enough man hours because the machine learning So here's devices need to be here. Another thing that's happened in guys is there is there is 100% of people in there in the universe that that that no cloud, that number's growing, but there's a fixed set. Everybody's going after all those people. You've got the big clock. They're all hiring like crazy. The vendors are probably hiring. You've got customers they're stealing from each other. It's very difficult to keep a staff. And so they look and they say I probably could figure this out, but there's no way I'm going to be able to operationalize it. There's just zero chance I could do that And there's just so much change. And honestly, they say it's a full time job just keeping up with what Amazon is announcing their get implementing. And so that's where they look and they come to Austin. They say there's zero chance that I can deploy networking architecturally without aviatrix >>on the network and guys because you and I always say the neighboring guys have the keys to the kingdom. They always have. I mean, people have tried to move the center of power away from the networking guys, But now, as the cloud gets the center of gravity, some of the power networking guys got to step up their game. But they don't want to rip and replace anything is as you went out earlier. It's complex, even pull one or two out. So the concern that I might have put the question to you is Steve. Great, great energy. But I'm really nervous that these routes are not gonna be. There's gonna be some coherency issues around updating routes because that's my number one concern. How do you guys solve that? >>Well, the one thing I've always seen, who's the worst? When? When? When most things happen, Who's the culprit? Human, right? It's always a human. Does something wrong. And so I would much rather trust some sort of automated software because at least if you program it correctly, it's going to do the right thing so way have not had. I mean, it's so >>you know what I'm sure is no issue there. >>Yeah, no, there's no issue, I mean, and what we do see, sometimes our people say, because there's a lot of people that are that are very smart, they get into the cloud and they are do it yourselfers and they love to go build, and they love the complexity, and they want all that they feel they feel like this job security and what we sometimes have to do is say you. But think about day to think about handing off the operations. You might get hit by a bus, and then your company is screwed, and you gotta almost get them enlightened to realize that they should be working on higher level things other than low level things. I'd say that's something that we kind of educate. People, >>houses Amazon there, one cloud of many 34 maybe one or two jazz. He said to me. You know, mostly primaries will be picked, probably Amazon. But in some cases, as you will be a primary less than that eight arrests. So multi cloud is the word that it was Something about an Amazon sees me loosening up a bit what it is, so they recognize it. What is multi cloud? I mean, what is really going on? I think >>I think if you're a small company, absolutely pick one cloud like for sure, right, like that doesn't make sense to go multiple clouds in your small medium business. If you're not that, if your needs are not that complex, pick one cloud right? And if it's a Toby asses the later stay with them. If it just happens to be, well, I got a bunch of credits and azure. Okay, maybe do them. I think. To date most people are picking eight of us There, there, there, there, The killer here. But when you talk to the enterprise, the real enterprise right that are just now moving into the cloud, they're all multi cloud Just had one today. Super large chip company down L a San Diego area. Guess what. Use it. All three clouds. I asked him why. Well, because we started in AWS. We got some things there we've got. We've got a bunch of stuff that runs and an azure with offers 3 65 other things that they dio and Google for ml and that kind of stuff. It runs better their enterprises. They're gonna pick where the workload run best, and they're big. And so they're gonna look and they're gonna They're gonna They're gonna elevate up building architecture that works across all of them. I don't think multi cloud means I'm gonna move this workload from here to here. That's never gonna happen. Maybe in 20 years. But I doubt it. It's just that the workloads heir destined, they run better on that and they're gonna focus on >>different park loads for the cloud that picked the right guy for the right workload. >>Yeah, and I'm so big and I require different companies and I get acquired. And and and And you got to think of the on Prem data centers eyes another cloud that's a multi. And then I go into Europe, and I have GDP are and I need another cloud. I mean, they're gonna have 45 clouds, and I don't think it's gonna be 20% across all >>that could be a power lot. They'll be more than 13 closets. Be specialty clouds a riff on this all the time. Well, Steve, I want to thank you for coming on the Q. Appreciate it. Give a quick blood for the company. How many employees you're gonna hire, some of your objectives >>growing fast. We've got over 400 customers and you ask one of our customers we've got customers spending millions of dollars a year with us all the way down the customer spending $5 a month. Why? Because of the wonderful thing of cloud they can consume. We've got 400 customers all over the world and even know who probably 300 of them are right. Why they go on the market place they go like this, they download. Maybe they come on drift. Ask one question. They launch and they spent $5 a month. I don't even know what they're doing. And eventually we watched their Amar are it just grows and grows and grows and grows. And eventually like, Whoa, Now you're spending 50 grand a year. We should talk. So it's kind of like how some companies used open source that ends up being our funnel a low friction zero friction High velocity Landon expand model. And then we have the traditional enterprises that you'd imagine every so everything in between >>your hiring, >>we're hiring like crazy, hiring a whole bunch of sales organization around the world. We just raised $40 million Siri see a month ago and we're going for >>fresh financing. Aviatrix see Mulaney, CEO of aviatrix here on the Cuba Reinvent 2019 Stay with us for more coverage. Day three of our three days of World War coverage Two sets here, thanks to Intel for the being our headline sponsor without their supporting our mission, which is bringing you the best confident possible. We want to thank Intel on. All of our sponsors were right back with more coverage after this short break

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, It's the Cube. Covering AWS reInvent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, we're live here in Las Vegas in the Cube for live coverage of Amazon reInvent 2019. I'm John Furrier here instructing the singer from the noise. We have an amazing guest here, the founder of Aviatrix, I mean the CEO of Aviatrix, Steve Mullaney. Welcome to the Cube, thanks for comin' out. >> Thank you, good to see you. >> So first of all, I want to get into your experience, because I think it's notable having you on, because you've been in the industry for years, you're CEO of a multicloud software, a new kind of company. And this is what Andy Jassy was talking about on his Keynote today, that there's new kinds of companies, there's the born in the cloud, then there's enterprises re-borning in the cloud, my word. It's actually pivoting or re-platforming, re-imagining, whatever you want to call it. This is the new game, and if you're not on that side of the street you could be out of business. >> Steve: Yeah, no we're definitely seeing that and I think that's the thing that really got me excited about a year ago, was watching enterprises make that transition and say you know what, the center of gravity has gone from architectures inside the on-prem data center, is now moved to in the cloud. That shift has happened, people talked about it five years ago, but they didn't mean it. Now when you talk to enterprises, they are actually moving into the cloud, not just talking about it. And they're saying that is the center of gravity. And what's interesting to me was, I think even just the tone of Andy Jassy today and what he was talking about was once you define what your architecture is, you push it everywhere. So cloud 1.0 and 2.0 was really more about taking my architecture that was on-prem and pushing it into the cloud. So let me take virtual clients, a virtual router, basically my hardware router, package it up, put it on the cloud. That's not cloud native, it's cloud naive as we talk, right? So the change that's happened is now everybody realizes that the center of gravity is in the cloud, and you start seeing things like outposts. You see things like wavelength, you see things like TGW network Manager and things getting pushed out. The architecture of the cloud, now actually pushing out and extending out into on premises. >> John: Well, I want to give you a prop for a couple things. One is, for the folks watching, and read my post about my interview with Andy Jassy, I said two things in there that I borrowed or stole from Steve. One was cloud native without the T is cloud naive. And T for trust, T for IT, that was clever. And we're going to get into that-- >> Well I stole that from our sales guy Harold Hilderbrand, so you know what? >> John: Harold shout out to you. The second thing that I heard used when we were talking, we were talking about transitions vs. transformations. I think that is so on point because I think that encapsulates what Jassy's saying and what the industry is feeling right now. Transitions are for incremental improvements, transformations are for flipping the script. >> Steve: Right, right. >> This is really happening. Can you share what you mean by transitions vs. transformations? >> Yeah, so when you're in a computing model, there's been really three computing models. There's mainframe, which was 50's or 60's, to 80's or 90's, there's a 20-30 year period where IBM, DAC and so forth. That was the way you did enterprise computing. Then this PC client server thing came along, which was viewed as a toy at the beginning. For print sharing and work groups and people said are you kidding me? PCs, Servers are just PCs with two power supplies. I'm not running my mission critical infrastructure on PCs. But in the 90's with the internet, IP protocol, it's shifted. That became that transformation. So incumbents never win transformations. DEC, IBM and what happens is they're never in the conversation, because it's a transformation. Incumbents always win transitions, so for the last 20 to 30 years, Cisco, great, fantastic company. Very respected company. John Jamers will talk about transitions and talk about he would pat himself on the back, and how they would win market transitions. You're supposed to win a market transition as an incumbent, don't pat yourself on the back. The customers will force you to win the transition because they don't want another leader when you're in that same model. We are now entering that third transformation, this a model of computing change. This is from the top down business transformation Andy was talking about, which is true. You have companies redefining who they are, and they are leveraging cloud technologies to do that. This is not a cost thing, this is not a bottoms up technology thing that IT guys just say ah I want to learn something new. This is top down business transformation, existential threat to the survival of my company kind of stuff, and we need to move fast, and enterprises all move together. That's now happening and transformations, that confusion creates opportunities, because it moves so fast that the legacy vendors just don't have time. They have the innovators dilemma, they can't move to the new way quick enough. >> Yeah and one of the things I want to get your thoughts on and I want to get your reaction to is as we go to all the events in cloud, in this business, we see everything, the one tell sign, for me, is the security market. Security got unbuckled out of IT, in the board conversation. The jewels are on the table, the security, if you get hacked you're out of business. Talk about threats to the business, security is the leading indicator. What's going on in security? They're building their own staff, they're hiring developers in house. They are really changing the game on how they use technology. That's just in one area. You're talking about a complete reset, or reconsideration of everything that Jassy said. >> Everything, yeah, it's the business, right? Your applications are your business, right? And then all the infrastructure underneath that is there to service the applications and the data, that's why it's there. When you talk to different people, and you talk to customers like NBC and CBS, and content people, they're moving to the cloud. They're now having channels that are 100% hosted on AWS for the first time. Why are you doing that? I asked this of CBS. Because we need to move faster. Guess what, they're competing with Netflix and Amazon. They can't do it the old way, they're going to die. So they're moving all of their channels, hundreds of channels to be now cloud enabled. Because it allows them to deliver it in months as opposed to years. >> Your really interesting background, I'll share with the audience, you have a networking background, the old WellFleet became Bay Networks. Early employee at Cisco, then went to early employee at Palo Alto Networks security company. CEO Of Nicira, which is a big pioneer in software-defined networking. Which, at the time, evolved into the crown jewels of AVMWare. >> Yep, in a sense. >> You would say I would agree with that. And now you're on Aviatrix where it's got a multi-cloud abstraction, so you're kind of riding this new wave. So the question I have for you is, I coined the term being reborn in the cloud. Not born in the cloud. People who are born in the cloud, clean sheet of paper, they can scale up. But an enterprise has got to transform. Has to become reborn with cloud architecture. >> Steve: Yes, yes. >> This is a fundamental, almost look in the mirror moment as an enterprise executive, saying are we being reborn? >> Yes. >> How do companies do that? >> So we have a number of companies, enterprise companies, that are 30 year old, 40 year old enterprise software companies that, honestly, were left for dead. Where people thought, they weren't SaaS. They missed out on the whole Benny Hoff SaaS movement and they were on-prem. They had all the features, all the functionality, but they didn't have the delivery model of SaaS. They were hurting, they were going to die. People left them for dead. Now what they are doing is they've reborn themselves, in the cloud. They are pushing themselves in the cloud. Informatic, Variant, Epsolon, Eluysian, Teradata. We've got tens of these companies, that are, have reinvented themselves and now they're actually doing really, really, well. Because they had the functionality that they've always had, but now they have the delivery mechanism. There not SaaS actually, and the customers like that. Because I get my own three or four VPCs, it's my own network, it's not multi-tenant. It's hosted within AWS and now they're just migrating as fast as they can, all of their on-prem applications of customers into AWS and other clouds. >> John: All right, so I want to ask you about multi-cloud. Jassy didn't use the word multi-cloud, the critics are tweeting away on that. But, of course he's going to say multi-cloud, he's the cloud. He's the one cloud, he wants to be. >> Yeah. >> Multi-cloud is a reality. He did point out in my interview, and I think he might have mentioned on stage, that people are picking up primary and secondary. And then it's not 50/50 it's 70/30, 90/10. Whatever the ratio is then just pick one. Amazon gets picked a lot for the leader. What's your vision and how do you see the multi-cloud playing out? As people start becoming more cloud operations based. >> My view, and people, we are in the first pitch in the first inning of this cloud and people say AWS is a 40 billion dollar run rate, how can that be? Because the money has always been and always will be with large enterprise. They are now just starting to move into the cloud. There's trillions of dollars of spend that's coming into public cloud. So, first off, it's very beginning, early days. Second thing is AWS has done incredibly well with the developers and the born in the cloud people. Enterprises, not so much. And, you know what? Microsoft kind of understands enterprises. So I think we're going to be set up for a little bit of battle here, and it's, by no means, over. So I think AWS recognizes that and every single enterprise that I have talked to says I may not be a third, a third, a third across all three of the big clouds. Maybe I'll have one primary, and I think Andy Jassy says that, which I kind of agree with. I think people will have a primary, but I don't think everyone's primary is going to be AWS. I think there's going to be a lot of Azure primaries. And even some Google primaries, probably more, and I think it will be a two horse race for that. But then they're going to use the other clouds because, I was just talking to a customer today. The signature recognition software runs better in Azure. They're an AWS customer, they're moving to Azure for this. Why, because that app runs better in Azure for some reason. I think people, particularly enterprises, will make that decision. >> All right, so I want to get your take on two things, first of all I agree with you. >> I think that's what will happen. >> I would agree with that, so let's just take this scenario. Amazon wins on capabilities, they're constantly adding new stuff everyday. So, if you're a builder, it's the ultimate tool shed for technology. Azure isn't there yet, they're trying to catch up as fast as they can, they're pedaling as fast as they can. But there's a build out level and then there's a consumption level. So there's having all that capability, but also the customer's consumption has to be addressed. Solutions packaging, ease of use. So delivery mechanisms for infrastructure in the cloud. The consumption, how I buy and use, is now a consideration. Or consumer experience or whatever you want to call it. What's your take on those two dynamics? >> I think you'll see, from AWS, I don't know this, but it has to be, because this is what enterprises want. The phrase 'Go Build' is great for an early adopter. You go tell that to an enterprise, here's the power tools, go build your house. They go, I'm going to cut my hand off. I don't want to go build anything, I want to consume. So I think you're going to see them changing their tune a little bit, because the markets evolved, and I think it's caught them a little bit by surprise as well. I think Microsoft, because they know the enterprise, they won't say 'Go Build'. They're going to say 'Come Consume'. And I think that's going to resonate with enterprises. Because, at the end of the day, they don't really want to do that. Now, either way, I think it's going to be a battle. That's where Aviatrix comes into play. We help enterprises, no matter what cloud you're on, across multiple clouds or one, actually consume services. So we abstract away all the details of those native services. >> Well, I would say, if you got to transform, you have to do some building, but it would have to be the easy kit. >> Steve: Yeah, I want the easy button, I mean. >> John: Paint by numbers. >> Yeah. >> John: Self-installing house. So I got your take on that. So you got a lot of buzz in the analyst community around a phrase I've heard you say. >> Steve: Which one is that? >> There's no more food left in the data center. >> Oh, okay, yeah. >> John: And the animals are leaving the data center. >> And that's right. >> John: Food being the supplier. >> The on-prem data center. >> John: The on-prem are money and the animals being the vendors. So if there's no food in the data center, what's happening? What does that mean? >> Steve: They're goin' through, the center of gravity has moved into the cloud, that's where the food is. So you're going to see a lot of cloud naive legacy vendors put cloud on things, right? It's the same crap they had, they're just going to put cloud on it because, like I said, what do animals do when they run out of food? They go find where the food is, right? If people get mad when I say that because data centers are not going away. I know that data centers aren't goin' away, but they're going to get quarantined like mainframes got quarantined. It's going to be an expense area, it's not going to be an investment. And what do you do with an expense? You quarantine it, you cap it, you hopefully keep it flat, or your reduce it. But, sure, the data centers are going to be around for a long time but all their market caps are based on big growth. And, where people are confused is, for the last five years, everybody said we are moving to cloud. But they were talking. So if you look over the last five years, all the people selling the on-prem have done very well. So, clearly, this whole cloud thing was a hoax, right? Because, for five years, you said it was coming and it hasn't, so therefore I'm good. The problem is you're good right up until you're not good and that just happened. >> And that's happening now in your opinion? >> That's happening now and your seeing it in peoples results, publicly. And they're washing it over. They're saying it's a temporary problem. I compensated the field wrong. Bullshit, I know what's going on and, you know what? There's going to be no hiding from that. >> Yeah, and the expansion's going to be in the cloud where the developers are building apps that drive top line. >> Steve: That's where all the investment's going. >> Okay so, there's a couple of major areas developing with the cloud dynamic. The cloud scale and now data tsunami and data scale. Diversity of data and all those things are happening. You can see that in the announcements. Large scale data, the data layer network, data ops, data as code, infrastructure as code, large scale, all that's great. But networking still becomes the fundamental problem. Jassy talked about it on stage. Hops to the network, they got this wavelength thing for 5G. That's really cool. All the kind of important things that are going on, is going on at the network. Same concepts being applied to a new architecture. >> Yeah. >> Your thoughts? >> Exactly right. One of our customers, I forget who it was, said a phrase to me that I love. Again I steal everything John. >> John: I steal from you. >> Yeah, he said the network comes first. I go that is perfect, I'm going to use that. In fact, actually it's on our website. The network comes first. Because when you're building up that infrastructure, in all of computing. Compute network and storage, what's the most important? Network by far. Why, because if the network isn't architected correctly, you're screwed for life. So you've got to get that right. So that's what everybody is doing right now. Is they look and they say strategically, we're going to go build a city. First thing I got to go and do is get the basic infrastructure, and the network comes first. That is the core of my basic infrastructure. If you get that wrong, life is bad for a long long time. That's what's going on right now. >> Okay, so you've had a great career, you got the CEO of Aviatrix going on. You're also looking at startups, you advise, been on boards. What's your view of the startup landscape if you're advising startups to go at this market, this trillion dollar enterprise market, the money's being thrown in the air and the money's in the middle of the table. How do they attack that money, how do they attack the marketplace? >> First thing, number one, you got to be cloud native. You have got to understand the basic native constructs of Azure, Google, AWS. You cannot be just this thing that plops on top of it, you got to be able to programmatically, program that infrastructure and leverage it. Because all of the hundreds of billions of dollars being spent, you want to use that, right. You don't want to have to go recreate that. So that, to me, is number one. And then number two, I think there's a lot of opportunity in the cloud. Everybody thinks AWS will do anything and everything you need in networking. That is a bunch of crap. There is so many limitations that they have for enterprises. Like hundreds of limitations. The beautiful thing with networking is you push one area, and ten other problems happen. So we've got 20 years of things to do to make networking better. So that's what we're going to do. But also at the edges, right? I would say where the interesting thing happens, is the interface between on-prem and cloud. So BGP, IOS, Cisco IOS, all the things that, because it's kind of like the virtual, the physical interface. It's the cloud to on-prem interface. There's still going to be an interface. >> John: You still need plumbing. >> Then there's still going to be an interface. That interface is where a lot of the complexity and friction comes. So whether it's IoT, edge computing type things, or things that we do of bringing that cloud in a seamless, kind of simple, automated way. Bringing on the on-prem into the cloud world in a very seamless way. >> John: So, I'm got to ask you a final question. You came out of retirement. You had the good life on boards, golfing, clipping coupons, going to the beach every day. Now you're the CEO of a company going grinding it out again. A lot of older ageism coming back into the biz. A lot of people who have been in the systems business. >> Steve: Oh yeah. >> A lot of people coming back into the game. Why did you come back, what was the main driver for you to come back out of retirement? >> 'Cause this is a thousand foot wave and it's ten times bigger than what I saw in client server. It's the biggest opportunity of value creation and innovation that I have ever seen and ever will see in my life. What's also fun is every single one of the customers that we are dealing with are all old guys like me. They're all 40s, 50s, 60s, it's the IT guys from 30 years ago that everyone left for dead. Everyone thought, oh it's the developer-led infrastructure, the developers are going to do everything, uh uh. This is IT, IT is coming back and saying thank you very much developer, we got it from here. This is serious business now. This isn't fun and games anymore. We're taking over. >> But it's serious IT, it's reborn IT, it's not the old IT. >> Not the old IT, they want to do it. It's the old guys. But they're enlightened guys and gals and they want to do it in the cloud way, with the simplicity and the automation. But yet I want to bring the functionality, visibility, and control that I had on-prem. I don't want to do it the old way. I want to do it the new way. Guy today I was just talking to a customer who said, I don't want to build my Dad's network. But he's 50 years old, he's my age, you know. And so, but I think that's the key, they're enlightened networking people, yet they have the 30 years of history of understanding the subtleties of BGP and networking. >> This was our chance to hear you in the Cube, we had such a great time, our team's awesome. It's our seventh year doing reInvent, eight years total of this conference. What's your take of Jassy's Keynote this year? Is this an inflection point? Is this one of those moments where you're going to look back and say this was a time that Amazon made a change, or gassed it extra hard? >> I think, my take is, look every year he says amazing things and every year is another step function. But I think this year will go down as the year that people will look back a couple of years from now and say that was the point, that it got serious, like really serious in terms of big enterprises coming in and I think it's going to send a message to the other public clouds, and a message to all the other enterprises that say hey, maybe I'm falling behind. When you see Goldman Sachs and you see banks are laggers to the cloud. They're not early adopters, they're laggers. You see that and you go well, wait a minute, maybe I'm missing out. I think it's going to actually accelerate because he's seeing it, you know. So I think it will go down as a big inflection point. >> John: Steve Mullaney, President and CEO of Aviatrix, who's going to, you'll be on Thursday to go over some of the stuff you guys do as a company. Appreciate the commentary, and great experience riding the wave. How high was that wave? >> A thousand foot. >> Thousand foot wave. We've been riding this wave for years. What a great time it is to be here at reInvent. Keep coverage, I'm John Furrier. We will be back with more coverage after this short break. Here in the Cube Intel Studios sponsored by Intel. Thanks to Intel for your generous contributions to making the Cube and supporting our mission. We really appreciate it. Thanks for watching, we've got the more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering ESCAPE/19. >> Everyone, welcome to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the ESCAPE Conference 19. This is the inaugural event for multicloud, I think it's the first industry event for, really talking about multicloud and the impact to enterprises and public cloud. My next guest is Steve Mullaney, President and CEO of Aviatrix, storied career in tech, been there done that, seen many waves of innovation. Nicira, Palo Alto Networks, and now Aviatrix. You retired for a while, welcome back! >> I did, yeah, five years, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> It's nice to have you on because I think you have a good perspective on the multicloud because you've been in the industry since the 80s. We've both been broke in at the same time. And we've seen the waves. >> Oh, yeah. >> This wave is bigger than, I think, most of the other waves combined because it brings together so many things, infrastructure, software, cloud scale, and a new modern application environment. And then you complicate everything by throwing IoT out there, edges being pushed to their boundaries, securities equations changed, all this is going on right now, all at the same time. >> No, and that's why I was basically retired for five years, and I was at Nicira, we got bought by VMware, I stayed there for a couple years, and I just said, "Okay, that's it!" I've had a good career and I'm done. And about a year ago, the world changed. And it felt like on a Tuesday morning, I noticed enterprises really, we'd been talking about cloud for 12 years. And five years ago they said, "We're coming in, we're going to do it," but they didn't really mean it. But about a year ago, all in the same day, every enterprise said, "No, now we actually mean it." And I don't know why, I don't know if it was just people retired or just five years of talking about it, they all decided, we're comin' in, and enterprises all moved together. And this wave, as you said, is bigger than, I was around in 1992, in the early 90s, in the movement from mainframe to client server. This is 10 times bigger than that. And more importantly, it's going to happen 10,000 times faster. Because (fingers tapping). What's that? I just deployed 62 data centers around the world. Because if I can leverage the greatest infrastructure built, basic infrastructure of the hyperscalers, AWS, Azure, Google, Alibaba, Oracle, you name it. It's unbelievable the velocity at which you can now start deploying. >> Steve, I think you're onto something big here, and this is why I'm here at this event and why I'm excited, that a lot of the industry thought leaders and practitioners and leaders are doing this event. Small events, inaugural, but I think it has a lot of links. Because there's a lot of tell signs that I like to look at, one is cloud. I've been covering Amazon eight years now, with theCUBE, I've known AWS since it started, and I've done many startups in its launch using AWS. But I've had many conversations with Andy Jassy, one on ones, privately, I got an exclusive coming up for re:Invent with him. I've gotten to know him. It started out, "Everyone's moving to the cloud. "Every data center's not going to exist." And then, you know-- >> Oh, maybe not, yeah, yeah. >> Maybe not, we'll do an output. So I challenged him last year, I said, "Andy, come on, dude, like you were saying like a year ago that." >> Steve: Yeah, it's all AWS or nothing. >> And he said, "John, look I'm not, "I just listen to the customers." And I interviewed him when he did the VMware deal. And he's very customer focused. And when they make these moves with outpost, and I think it's going to be a hybrid message this year at re:Invent, you know it's real. >> Steve: Oh, yeah. >> I think this validates your point, so I got to ask you, what specifically do you see the formula being for multicloud, because certainly everyone's recognized that there's a huge benefit for AWS. But from a scale standpoint, so why not use that? What's going on on the Enterprise on-premise that's making this new thing work? >> I think it all starts with architecture, like anything else. I think right now, enterprises have said, "Okay, we've burned a boat, right? "Now, we're not going to get rid of our data centers, "but in terms of our strategic investment, "we are moving into the cloud. "We are going to leverage "the infrastructure of the hyperscalers. "And whether that is just one hyperscaler, or multiple." And I have not met an enterprise who thinks there only going to be one, right, every single one of them. Now, I don't think they're moving workloads across, I don't think that. I think they see that, I'm going to use Google for AI, I'm going to use AWS because it started there. I'm going to use Azure, for Office 365, and other different things, and everything in infrastructure is always multi. It's never homogeneous, right, it's always that. So I think is going to happen, and I think what people are begging for right now, is, I want to build an architecture that gives me the optionality to be able to deliver a common set of services whether I'm on AWS or multiple clouds. And I want them to be my services and I don't want to have understand the low level abstractions and constructs of each of those clouds, because their all different. One's metric, one's U.S., one's some other weird thing. And I don't have the time, the people, or the resources to be able to do that. Give me a common set of services, that are my services, that I can deploy and abstract away the details of those public clouds. >> Yeah, it's an interesting point there, in fact, I called BS on multicloud last year when it started to kind of rear it's head, I'm like, "Come on, multicloud is bullshit." And I said that on theCUBE. And here's what I meant. Multicloud as an operating model is directionally correct, but the architecture hasn't shown where there's true multicloud. Now, the fact of the matter is, people have Amazon, people have Office and Office 365, that's technically two clouds, >> They're siloed, yeah. >> If they give us Google, that's three clouds. >> I use two or three clouds. >> So, if he have three clouds, I guess they have multiple clouds. But you bring up an interesting point, and going back as a student of the history of tech industry, multi-vendor has been a big deal. >> It is a big deal. >> And like you said, there will be a multi-vendor world, that will happen. The question is how. How do you guys see it happening? >> Well I think what's-- >> Your company is attacking this Aviatrix. >> What's interesting is, so now you think about from a customer perspective which, I do the same thing, same thing with AWS. It's always outside in. Okay, I'm thinking as a enterprise IT person. I'm making the move. Do you believe that your basic infrastructure will lever the hyperscalers, or will you build an on-prem? Everyone says, "I believe that's the way I'm going to go." Great, how do I do that? So, I'm a IT architect, who do I go to to help me? Do I go to CISCO? No. The most shocking thing for me, of the six months I've been at Aviatrix, is that word's never used. It's like it was DEC or IBM in the conversation, when you were talking about client-server, no, why would you? CISCO, Juniper, Arista, any of the networking people, not even in the conversation. VMware, not really in the conversation. So, I don't have any incumbent vendor that I can go to that I used to go to. >> Why aren't they in the conversation? 'Cause of the commodity, they've been extracted away? >> I think it's just because it's the innovation of dilemma. Right, once you're selling a lot of stuff into on-prem, to then go and say, I mean you look at Palo Alto Networks, they're trying to make that transition. Acquiring a bunch of companies, VMware acquiring a bunch of companies. Why are they doing that? Because they know, I got to get off on-prem, everything's going in the cloud. >> So it's a legacy. >> It's a legacy thing, and I think what happens is, there is only one reason, and one reason only, an enterprise customer is not using Aviatrix. 'Cause they never heard of us. That's why, that's the only reason. Once they hear about what they're doing, my God. >> Well, give the plug, talk about the company, what do you guys do-- >> So we deliver, I mean it sounds like I made it up for this conference, but actually this conference was perfect for this. It's networking and security services for the multicloud enterprise. And we're building an architecture, that people can deploy, that will give them this common architecture across all the different clouds. So whether you're just using one cloud or multiple, it doesn't matter, it's the same set of security and networking services. And we do that by embracing and extending the basic constructs that AWS, Google, Azure, and Oracle, and all the other clouds will give you, and to deliver that real enterprise class. Because the other thing we've found is, everyone thinks that the cloud gives you everything and anything you will ever need from networking and security. Let's say AWS, they're going to do everything I need. What the enterprises are figuring out, is once they start going in, what they realize is, it's created for the low-level common basic constructs. And the enterprise starts at, well, I need these BGP feature because guess what, the data center is not going away. And I need more than a hundred route limitations, and I need, all of a sudden there's fifty different limitations AWS will give me. Well, they didn't talk about that! Well, of course they're not going to talk about that. They are just going to go check, check, check, we solve all your problems. As enterprises now move in, with mission critical applications, they're realizing, I need the same level of networking and security services that I had on-prem. I can't get that with the native constructs. So where do I go? That's what we do, so we fill in, we embrace what we can of those constructs, we fill in holes where there are fill in holes. And then we give you the mechanism to be able to orchestrate that across the global network. >> So you operationalize the hyperscale clouds for enterprise, >> Yes. >> that's basically what you do. >> Steve: Exactly, for the enterprise. >> Yeah, exactly. >> On the level that they need. >> So you get the benefits of the cloud, but all those nuances under the cover details like networking and other features you abstract that away and provide an operating model for enterprise compliments. >> And the beautiful thing about it is the velocity, at which we can, we're over the top, effectively over the top. We're integrated into the Cloud Suite, understand what cloud native, we understand all the constructs of accounts, and all the things we need to do. But what we expose to the customer, to the enterprise, is a set of over-the-top services that just work. >> Okay Steve, so I got to ask you, since we are at The Multi-Cloud Conference. What is multicloud, I mean how do you define it, you laid out a pretty compelling architecture of what needs are, levers in the cloud, and on-prem is what Aviatrix does. But what is the definition, how should people understand what is multicloud? >> I think for us, for networking and security in that base, so we're basic infrastructure. We get out there first, right? So, if you're going to build a city, you don't start putting people there first the first thing, if you do it right, is you get sewers, you get electricity, gas, roads, all that. Networking and security, infrastructure, is basic infrastructure goes out first. And you want to create an architecture that's going to live with you for twenty years. You don't want to have to rip up the roads and put the sewers in later. And that architecture needs to be multicloud because, even though you think maybe, most of our customers are 90% AWS right now. But every single one of them say, "But I'm moving to Azure, I'm moving to Google, "I've got retail customers that won't allow me "to put my infrastructure on AWS." Or, "I have machine learning, AI type apps on Google." They all say that same thing. But what they all then say to us, is, "You're going to be the mechanism "upon which I'm going to be able to deploy "this common set of services." So they don't need to know that. >> All right, give an example of a customer you guys have, name a name, we had a customer on stage here-- >> Steve: So, Jefferies. >> John: They did this for a use case. >> Yeah so, Jefferies. Financial Services Institution, lots of requirements, Mark Leon Soon is going to be on stage with me tomorrow. We started working with them about nine months ago. Exactly the same thing, they said, "Okay, you know what? "We need to start moving to the cloud, "we've got to start leveraging the cloud. "But, it's too complicated, right? "Even AWS, says 'Go Build.' "I don't want to go build, I want to consume services. "But they don't have all the service that I needed, "they're too low a level. "They're very high function, high enterprise requirements." So they start using us to orchestrate things, to provide transit networking, to provide egress filtering out to the Internet, we have high performance encryption, AWS will only offer it one gig. We can offer it to 10, 20, 30, 40 gig. So they start deploying, they start realizing all the things we do. Then they go and say, "I want to bring my Palo Alto Networks firewall "into the cloud." When you start looking at that, 'cause then guess what? All my policies, I want the same level that I have on-prem when I'm in the cloud. If I go try to bring in my VM series into AWS the construct that AWS give you, they cause you limitations in performance, in visibility, It's integration hassles, there's performance, sustainability, visibility issues, they force you to use SNAT. And there's all these issues, and they go, "Oh my God, this is a pain in the ass." We solved all that for them. We basically cloudify the VM series for them, so all those limitations go away. So that's just another use case that they use. Now they start looking, and they say, "Okay, now I'm going to start extending into other clouds and I want to use you as the common frame point, the common pane of glass. >> Well Steve, good luck in your venture, you're back in the saddle again. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Another ride here, you feel good about it? >> This is going to be the best, the biggest that I've been, and I was at Palo Alto Networks and VMware Nicira. And this one's going to be bigger than both of those. >> What's your vision for where this is going to be for you, where do you see the company in a few years, what are some of the outcomes you expect to happen? >> Our opportunity, and I look at it as, someone's going to take this opportunity, and the reason I came back is, why not us, someone's going to take it. And the opportunity, honestly, is to become, effectively, what Cisco was in the early 90's. To define the architecture, the networking and the security infrastructure architecture for enterprise customers. They are begging for that right now, that's our opportunity. >> Cloud Interoperability. >> Interoperability, yeah. And so there's so many things that we need to go and do. When you look at also the thing that people are going to say, the operations. So many people think, I want it the same as it was on-prem. I think with the cloud, and across multicloud you can do it right with us, and actually better. Because the visibility that you get is more, than what you get on-prem. >> Well, and the thing that's interesting that's different about this new world that we're talking about is that there is going to be constant improvements in new things which means that the functionality game is going to increase, which means the agility is even more important because the apps are going to have more things to do. >> Yeah. I mean in the end, why do you want to go to cloud? I want to go to cloud 'cause I want it to be self-service and I want agility. I want my developers, I want everybody to be able to do things quicker because all of the sudden they say, "Let's go roll this out", and you want to be able to do it. >> Well, good luck on the new venture, Aviatrix, check 'em out, hot multicloud startup, growing, how many people do you have, put the plug in, >> 100. >> what are you guys looking for, are you hiring, give me a quick plug. >> We just hired a new VP at World Wide Sales, James Winebrenner, who was Viptela CEO, VP Sales in Cisco, hiring a tremendous amount of sales guys right now, we're closing on a $40 million Series C round next week, and we're hiring a lot of people. >> Good luck, we'll be following you Steve, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Again, multicloud, this is a shift that's happening, multicloud is just another word for multi-vendor, in a new modern era, this is what it has been in the technology industry, but a whole new world. This is theCUBE coverage here in New York City, ESCAPE/19, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering ESCAPE/19. >> Everyone, welcome to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the ESCAPE Conference 19. This is the inaugural event for multicloud, I think it's the first industry event for, really talking about multicloud and the impact to enterprises and public cloud. My next guest is Steve Mullaney, President and CEO of Aviatrix, storied career in tech, been there done that, seen many waves of innovation. Nicira, Palo Alto Networks, and now Aviatrix. You retired for a while, welcome back! >> I did, yeah, five years, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> It's nice to have you on because I think you have a good perspective on the multicloud because you've been in the industry since the 80s. We've both been broke in at the same time. And we've seen the waves. >> Oh, yeah. >> This wave is bigger than, I think, most of the other waves combined because it brings together so many things, infrastructure, software, cloud scale, and a new modern application environment. And then you complicate everything by throwing IoT out there, edges being pushed to their boundaries, securities equations changed, all this is going on right now, all at the same time. >> No, and that's why I was basically retired for five years, and I was at Nicira, we got bought by VMware, I stayed there for a couple years, and I just said, "Okay, that's it!" I've had a good career and I'm done. And about a year ago, the world changed. And it felt like on a Tuesday morning, I noticed enterprises really, we'd been talking about cloud for 12 years. And five years ago they said, "We're coming in, we're going to do it," but they didn't really mean it. But about a year ago, all in the same day, every enterprise said, "No, now we actually mean it." And I don't know why, I don't know if it was just people retired or just five years of talking about it, they all decided, we're comin' in, and enterprises all moved together. And this wave, as you said, is bigger than, I was around in 1992, in the early 90s, in the movement from mainframe to client server. This is 10 times bigger than that. And more importantly, it's going to happen 10,000 times faster. Because (fingers tapping). What's that? I just deployed 62 data centers around the world. Because if I can leverage the greatest infrastructure built, basic infrastructure of the hyperscalers, AWS, Azure, Google, Alibaba, Oracle, you name it. It's unbelievable the velocity at which you can now start deploying. >> Steve, I think you're onto something big here, and this is why I'm here at this event and why I'm excited, that a lot of the industry thought leaders and practitioners and leaders are doing this event. Small events, inaugural, but I think it has a lot of links. Because there's a lot of tell signs that I like to look at, one is cloud. I've been covering Amazon eight years now, with theCUBE, I've known AWS since it started, and I've done many startups in its launch using AWS. But I've had many conversations with Andy Jassy, one on ones, privately, I got an exclusive coming up for re:Invent with him. I've gotten to know him. It started out, "Everyone's moving to the cloud. "Every data center's not going to exist." And then, you know-- >> Oh, maybe not, yeah, yeah. >> Maybe not, we'll do an output. So I challenged him last year, I said, "Andy, come on, dude, like you were saying like a year ago that." >> Steve: Yeah, it's all AWS or nothing. >> And he said, "John, look I'm not, "I just listen to the customers." And I interviewed him when he did the VMware deal. And he's very customer focused. And when they make these moves with outpost, and I think it's going to be a hybrid message this year at re:Invent, you know it's real. >> Steve: Oh, yeah. >> I think this validates your point, so I got to ask you, what specifically do you see the formula being for multicloud, because certainly everyone's recognized that there's a huge benefit for AWS. But from a scale standpoint, so why not use that? What's going on on the Enterprise on-premise that's making this new thing work? >> I think it all starts with architecture, like anything else. I think right now, enterprises have said, "Okay, we've burned a boat, right? "Now, we're not going to get rid of our data centers, "but in terms of our strategic investment, "we are moving into the cloud. "We are going to leverage "the infrastructure of the hyperscalers. "And whether that is just one hyperscaler, or multiple." And I have not met an enterprise who thinks there only going to be one, right, every single one of them. Now, I don't think they're moving workloads across, I don't think that. I think they see that, I'm going to use Google for AI, I'm going to use AWS because it started there. I'm going to use Azure, for Office 365, and other different things, and everything in infrastructure is always multi. It's never homogeneous, right, it's always that. So I think is going to happen, and I think what people are begging for right now, is, I want to build an architecture that gives me the optionality to be able to deliver a common set of services whether I'm on AWS or multiple clouds. And I want them to be my services and I don't want to have understand the low level abstractions and constructs of each of those clouds, because their all different. One's metric, one's U.S., one's some other weird thing. And I don't have the time, the people, or the resources to be able to do that. Give me a common set of services, that are my services, that I can deploy and abstract away the details of those public clouds. >> Yeah, it's an interesting point there, in fact, I called BS on multicloud last year when it started to kind of rear it's head, I'm like, "Come on, multicloud is bullshit." And I said that on theCUBE. And here's what I meant. Multicloud as an operating model is directionally correct, but the architecture hasn't shown where there's true multicloud. Now, the fact of the matter is, people have Amazon, people have Office and Office 365, that's technically two clouds, >> They're siloed, yeah. >> If they give us Google, that's three clouds. >> I use two or three clouds. >> So, if he have three clouds, I guess they have multiple clouds. But you bring up an interesting point, and going back as a student of the history of tech industry, multi-vendor has been a big deal. >> It is a big deal. >> And like you said, there will be a multi-vendor world, that will happen. The question is how. How do you guys see it happening? >> Well I think what's-- >> Your company is attacking this Aviatrix. >> What's interesting is, so now you think about from a customer perspective which, I do the same thing, same thing with AWS. It's always outside in. Okay, I'm thinking as a enterprise IT person. I'm making the move. Do you believe that your basic infrastructure will lever the hyperscalers, or will you build an on-prem? Everyone says, "I believe that's the way I'm going to go." Great, how do I do that? So, I'm a IT architect, who do I go to to help me? Do I go to CISCO? No. The most shocking thing for me, of the six months I've been at Aviatrix, is that word's never used. It's like it was DEC or IBM in the conversation, when you were talking about client-server, no, why would you? CISCO, Juniper, Arista, any of the networking people, not even in the conversation. VMware, not really in the conversation. So, I don't have any incumbent vendor that I can go to that I used to go to. >> Why aren't they in the conversation? 'Cause of the commodity, they've been extracted away? >> I think it's just because it's the innovation of dilemma. Right, once you're selling a lot of stuff into on-prem, to then go and say, I mean you look at Palo Alto Networks, they're trying to make that transition. Acquiring a bunch of companies, VMware acquiring a bunch of companies. Why are they doing that? Because they know, I got to get off on-prem, everything's going in the cloud. >> So it's a legacy. >> It's a legacy thing, and I think what happens is, there is only one reason, and one reason only, an enterprise customer is not using Aviatrix. 'Cause they never heard of us. That's why, that's the only reason. Once they hear about what they're doing, my God. >> Well, give the plug, talk about the company, what do you guys do-- >> So we deliver, I mean it sounds like I made it up for this conference, but actually this conference was perfect for this. It's networking and security services for the multicloud enterprise. And we're building an architecture, that people can deploy, that will give them this common architecture across all the different clouds. So whether you're just using one cloud or multiple, it doesn't matter, it's the same set of security and networking services. And we do that by embracing and extending the basic constructs that AWS, Google, Azure, and Oracle, and all the other clouds will give you, and to deliver that real enterprise class. Because the other thing we've found is, everyone thinks that the cloud gives you everything and anything you will ever need from networking and security. Let's say AWS, they're going to do everything I need. What the enterprises are figuring out, is once they stop going in, what they realize is, it's created for the low-level common basic constructs. And the enterprise starts at, well, I need these BGP feature because guess what, the data center is not going away. And I need more than a hundred route limitations, and I need, all of a sudden there's fifty different limitations AWS will give me. Well, they didn't talk about that! Well, of course they're not going to talk about that. They are just going to go check, check, check, we solve all your problems. As enterprises now move in, with mission critical applications, they're realizing, I need the same level of networking and security services that I had on-prem. I can't get that with the native constructs. So where do I go? That's what we do, so we fill in, we embrace what we can of those constructs, we fill in holes where there are fill in holes. And then we give you the mechanism to be able to orchestrate that across the global network. >> So you operationalize the hyperscale clouds for enterprise, >> Yes. >> that's basically what you do. >> Steve: Exactly, for the enterprise. >> Yeah, exactly. >> On the level that they need. >> So you get the benefits of the cloud, but all those nuances under the cover details like networking and other features you abstract that away and provide an operating model for enterprise compliments. >> And the beautiful thing about it is the velocity, at which we can, we're over the top, effectively over the top. We're integrated into the Cloud Suite, understand what cloud native, we understand all the constructs of accounts, and all the things we need to do. But what we expose to the customer, to the enterprise, is a set of over-the-top services that just work. >> Okay Steve, so I got to ask you, since we are at The Multi-Cloud Conference. What is multicloud, I mean how do you define it, you laid out a pretty compelling architecture of what needs are, levers in the cloud, and on-prem is what Aviatrix does. But what is the definition, how should people understand what is multicloud? >> I think for us, for networking and security in that base, so we're basic infrastructure. We get out there first, right? So, if you're going to build a city, you don't start putting people there first the first thing, if you do it right, is you get sewers, you get electricity, gas, roads, all that. Networking and security, infrastructure, is basic infrastructure goes out first. And you want to create an architecture that's going to live with you for twenty years. You don't want to have to rip up the roads and put the sewers in later. And that architecture needs to be multicloud because, even though you think maybe, most of our customers are 90% AWS right now. But every single one of them say, "But I'm moving to Azure, I'm moving to Google, "I've got retail customers that won't allow me "to put my infrastructure on AWS." Or, "I have machine learning, AI type apps on Google." They all say that same thing. But what they all then say to us, is, "You're going to be the mechanism "upon which I'm going to be able to deploy "this common set of services." So they don't need to know that. >> All right, give an example of a customer you guys have, name a name, we had a customer on stage here-- >> Steve: So, Jefferies. >> John: They did this for a use case. >> Yeah so, Jefferies. Financial Services Institution, lots of requirements, Mark Leon Soon is going to be on stage with me tomorrow. We started working with them about nine months ago. Exactly the same thing, they said, "Okay, you know what? "We need to start moving to the cloud, "we've got to start leveraging the cloud. "But, it's too complicated, right? "Even AWS, says 'Go Build.' "I don't want to go build, I want to consume services. "But they don't have all the service that I needed, "they're too low a level. "They're very high function, high enterprise requirements." So they start using us to orchestrate things, to provide transit networking, to provide egress filtering out to the Internet, we have high performance encryption, AWS will only offer it one gig. We can offer it to 10, 20, 30, 40 gig. So they start deploying, they start realizing all the things we do. Then they go and say, "I want to bring my Palo Alto Networks firewall "into the cloud." When you start looking at that, 'cause then guess what? All my policies, I want the same level that I have on-prem when I'm in the cloud. If I go try to bring in my VM series into AWS the construct that AWS give you, they cause you limitations in performance, in visibility, It's integration hassles, there's performance, sustainability, visibility issues, they force you to use SNAT. And there's all these issues, and they go, "Oh my God, this is a pain in the ass." We solved all that for them. We basically cloudify the VM series for them, so all those limitations go away. So that's just another use case that they use. Now they start looking, and they say, "Okay, now I'm going to start extending into other clouds and I want to use you as the common frame point, the common pane of glass. >> Well Steve, good luck in your venture, you're back in the saddle again. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Another ride here, you feel good about it? >> This is going to be the best, the biggest that I've been, and I was at Palo Alto Networks and VMware Nicira. And this one's going to be bigger than both of those. >> What's your vision for where this is going to be for you, where do you see the company in a few years, what are some of the outcomes you expect to happen? >> Our opportunity, and I look at it as, someone's going to take this opportunity, and the reason I came back is, why not us, someone's going to take it. And the opportunity, honestly, is to become, effectively, what Cisco was in the early 90's. To define the architecture, the networking and the security infrastructure architecture for enterprise customers. They are begging for that right now, that's our opportunity. >> Cloud Interoperability. >> Interoperability, yeah. And so there's so many things that we need to go and do. When you look at also the thing that people are going to say, the operations. So many people think, I want it the same as it was on-prem. I think with the cloud, and across multicloud you can do it right with us, and actually better. Because the visibility that you get is more, than what you get on-prem. >> Well, and the thing that's interesting that's different about this new world that we're talking about is that there is going to be constant improvements in new things which means that the functionality game is going to increase, which means the agility is even more important because the apps are going to have more things to do. >> Yeah. I mean in the end, why do you want to go to cloud? I want to go to cloud 'cause I want it to be self-service and I want agility. I want my developers, I want everybody to be able to do things quicker because all of the sudden they say, "Let's go roll this out", and you want to be able to do it. >> Well, good luck on the new venture, Aviatrix, check 'em out, hot multicloud startup, growing, how many people do you have, put the plug in, >> 100. >> what are you guys looking for, are you hiring, give me a quick plug. >> We just hired a new VP at World Wide Sales, James Winebrenner, who was Viptela CEO, VP Sales in Cisco, hiring a tremendous amount of sales guys right now, we're closing on a $40 million Series C round next week, and we're hiring a lot of people. >> Good luck, we'll be following you Steve, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Again, multicloud, this is a shift that's happening, multicloud is just another word for multi-vendor, in a new modern era, this is what it has been in the technology industry, but a whole new world. This is theCUBE coverage here in New York City, ESCAPE/19, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone, to "theCUBE"'s live stage performance here in Palo Alto, California at "theCUBE" Studios. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, kicking off our first inaugural Supercloud event. It's an editorial event, we wanted to bring together the best in the business, the smartest, the biggest, the up-and-coming startups, venture capitalists, everybody, to weigh in on this new Supercloud trend, this structural change in the cloud computing business. We're about to run the Ecosystem Speaks, which is a bunch of pre-recorded companies that wanted to get their voices on the record, so stay tuned for the rest of the day. We'll be replaying all that content and they're going to be having some really good commentary and hear what they have to say. I had a chance to interview and so did Dave. Dave, this is our closing segment where we kind of unpack everything or kind of digest and report. So much to kind of digest from the conversations today, a wide range of commentary from Supercloud operating system to developers who are in charge to maybe it's an ops problem or maybe Oracle's a Supercloud. I mean, that was debated. So so much discussion, lot to unpack. What was your favorite moments? >> Well, before I get to that, I think, I go back to something that happened at re:Invent last year. Nick Sturiale came up, Steve Mullaney from Aviatrix; we're going to hear from him shortly in the Ecosystem Speaks. Nick Sturiale's VC said "it's happening"! And what he was talking about is this ecosystem is exploding. They're building infrastructure or capabilities on top of the CapEx infrastructure. So, I think it is happening. I think we confirmed today that Supercloud is a thing. It's a very immature thing. And I think the other thing, John is that, it seems to me that the further you go up the stack, the weaker the business case gets for doing Supercloud. We heard from Marianna Tessel, it's like, "Eh, you know, we can- it was easier to just do it all on one cloud." This is a point that, Adrian Cockcroft just made on the panel and so I think that when you break out the pieces of the stack, I think very clearly the infrastructure layer, what we heard from Confluent and HashiCorp, and certainly VMware, there's a real problem there. There's a real need at the infrastructure layer and then even at the data layer, I think Benoit Dageville did a great job of- You know, I was peppering him with all my questions, which I basically was going through, the Supercloud definition and they ticked the box on pretty much every one of 'em as did, by the way Ali Ghodsi you know, the big difference there is the philosophy of Republicans and Democrats- got open versus closed, not to apply that to either one side, but you know what I mean! >> And the similarities are probably greater than differences. >> Berkely, I would probably put them on the- >> Yeah, we'll put them on the Democrat side we'll make Snowflake the Republicans. But so- but as we say there's a lot of similarities as well in terms of what their objectives are. So, I mean, I thought it was a great program and a really good start to, you know, an industry- You brought up the point about the industry consortium, asked Kit Colbert- >> Yep. >> If he thought that was something that was viable and what'd they say? That hyperscale should lead it? >> Yeah, they said hyperscale should lead it and there also should be an industry consortium to get the voices out there. And I think VMware is very humble in how they're putting out their white paper because I think they know that they can't do it all and that they do not have a great track record relative to cloud. And I think, but they have a great track record of loyal installed base ops people using VMware vSphere all the time. >> Yeah. >> So I think they need a catapult moment where they can catapult to the cloud native which they've been working on for years under Raghu and the team. So the question on VMware is in the light of Broadcom, okay, acquisition of VMware, this is an opportunity or it might not be an opportunity or it might be a spin-out or something, I just think VMware's got way too much engineering culture to be ignored, Dave. And I think- well, I'm going to watch this very closely because they can pull off some sort of rallying moment. I think they could. And then you hear the upstarts like Platform9, Rafay Systems and others they're all like, "Yes, we need to unify behind something. There needs to be some sort of standard". You know, we heard the argument of you know, more standards bodies type thing. So, it's interesting, maybe "theCUBE" could be that but we're going to certainly keep the conversation going. >> I thought one of the most memorable statements was Vittorio who said we- for VMware, we want our cake, we want to eat it too and we want to lose weight. So they have a lot of that aspirations there! (John laughs) >> And then I thought, Adrian Cockcroft said you know, the devs, they want to get married. They were marrying everybody, and then the ops team, they have to deal with the divorce. >> Yeah. >> And I thought that was poignant. It's like, they want consistency, they want standards, they got to be able to scale And Lori MacVittie, I'm not sure you agree with this, I'd have to think about it, but she was basically saying, all we've talked about is devs devs devs for the last 10 years, going forward we're going to be talking about ops. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things I learned from this day and looking back, and some kind of- I've been sauteing through all the interviews. If you zoom out, for me it was the epiphany of developers are still in charge. And I've said, you know, the developers are doing great, it's an ops security thing. Not sure I see that the way I was seeing before. I think what I learned was the refactoring pattern that's emerging, In Sik Rhee brought this up from Vertex Ventures with Marianna Tessel, it's a nuanced point but I think he's right on which is the pattern that's emerging is developers want ease-of-use tooling, they're driving the change and I think the developers in the devs ops ethos- it's never going to be separate. It's going to be DevOps. That means developers are driving operations and then security. So what I learned was it's not ops teams leveling up, it's devs redefining what ops is. >> Mm. And I think that to me is where Supercloud's going to be interesting- >> Forcing that. >> Yeah. >> Forcing the change because the structural change is open sources thriving, devs are still in charge and they still want more developers, Vittorio "we need more developers", right? So the developers are in charge and that's clear. Now, if that happens- if you believe that to be true the domino effect of that is going to be amazing because then everyone who gets on the wrong side of history, on the ops and security side, is going to be fighting a trend that may not be fight-able, you know, it might be inevitable. And so the winners are the ones that are refactoring their business like Snowflake. Snowflake is a data warehouse that had nothing to do with Amazon at first. It was the developers who said "I'm going to refactor data warehouse on AWS". That is a developer-driven refactorization and a business model. So I think that's the pattern I'm seeing is that this concept refactoring, patterns and the developer trajectory is critical. >> I thought there was another great comment. Maribel Lopez, her Lord of the Rings comment: "there will be no one ring to rule them all". Now at the same time, Kit Colbert, you know what we asked him straight out, "are you the- do you want to be the, the Supercloud OS?" and he basically said, "yeah, we do". Now, of course they're confined to their world, which is a pretty substantial world. I think, John, the reason why Maribel is so correct is security. I think security's a really hard problem to solve. You've got cloud as the first layer of defense and now you've got multiple clouds, multiple layers of defense, multiple shared responsibility models. You've got different tools for XDR, for identity, for governance, for privacy all within those different clouds. I mean, that really is a confusing picture. And I think the hardest- one of the hardest parts of Supercloud to solve. >> Yeah, and I thought the security founder Gee Rittenhouse, Piyush Sharrma from Accurics, which sold to Tenable, and Tony Kueh, former head of product at VMware. >> Right. >> Who's now an investor kind of looking for his next gig or what he is going to do next. He's obviously been extremely successful. They brought up the, the OS factor. Another point that they made I thought was interesting is that a lot of the things to do to solve the complexity is not doable. >> Yeah. >> It's too much work. So managed services might field the bit. So, and Chris Hoff mentioned on the Clouderati segment that the higher level services being a managed service and differentiating around the service could be the key competitive advantage for whoever does it. >> I think the other thing is Chris Hoff said "yeah, well, Web 3, metaverse, you know, DAO, Superclouds" you know, "Stupercloud" he called it and this bring up- It resonates because one of the criticisms that Charles Fitzgerald laid on us was, well, it doesn't help to throw out another term. I actually think it does help. And I think the reason it does help is because it's getting people to think. When you ask people about Supercloud, they automatically- it resonates with them. They play back what they think is the future of cloud. So Supercloud really talks to the future of cloud. There's a lot of aspects to it that need to be further defined, further thought out and we're getting to the point now where we- we can start- begin to say, okay that is Supercloud or that isn't Supercloud. >> I think that's really right on. I think Supercloud at the end of the day, for me from the simplest way to describe it is making sure that the developer experience is so good that the operations just happen. And Marianna Tessel said, she's investing in making their developer experience high velocity, very easy. So if you do that, you have to run on premise and on the cloud. So hybrid really is where Supercloud is going right now. It's not multi-cloud. Multi-cloud was- that was debunked on this session today. I thought that was clear. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think- >> It's not about multi-cloud. It's about operationally seamless operations across environments, public cloud to on-premise, basically. >> I think we got consensus across the board that multi-cloud, you know, is a symptom Chuck Whitten's thing of multi-cloud by default versus multi- multi-cloud has not been a strategy, Kit Colbert said, up until the last couple of years. Yeah, because people said, "oh we got all these multiple clouds, what do we do with it?" and we got this mess that we have to solve. Whereas, I think Supercloud is something that is a strategy and then the other nuance that I keep bringing up is it's industries that are- as part of their digital transformation, are building clouds. Now, whether or not they become superclouds, I'm not convinced. I mean, what Goldman Sachs is doing, you know, with AWS, what Walmart's doing with Azure connecting their on-prem tools to those public clouds, you know, is that a supercloud? I mean, we're going to have to go back and really look at that definition. Or is it just kind of a SAS that spans on-prem and cloud. So, as I said, the further you go up the stack, the business case seems to wane a little bit but there's no question in my mind that from an infrastructure standpoint, to your point about operations, there's a real requirement for super- what we call Supercloud. >> Well, we're going to keep the conversation going, Dave. I want to put a shout out to our founding supporters of this initiative. Again, we put this together really fast kind of like a pilot series, an inaugural event. We want to have a face-to-face event as an industry event. Want to thank the founding supporters. These are the people who donated their time, their resource to contribute content, ideas and some cash, not everyone has committed some financial contribution but we want to recognize the names here. VMware, Intuit, Red Hat, Snowflake, Aisera, Alteryx, Confluent, Couchbase, Nutanix, Rafay Systems, Skyhigh Security, Aviatrix, Zscaler, Platform9, HashiCorp, F5 and all the media partners. Without their support, this wouldn't have happened. And there are more people that wanted to weigh in. There was more demand than we could pull off. We'll certainly continue the Supercloud conversation series here on "theCUBE" and we'll add more people in. And now, after this session, the Ecosystem Speaks session, we're going to run all the videos of the big name companies. We have the Nutanix CEOs weighing in, Aviatrix to name a few. >> Yeah. Let me, let me chime in, I mean you got Couchbase talking about Edge, Platform 9's going to be on, you know, everybody, you know Insig was poopoo-ing Oracle, but you know, Oracle and Azure, what they did, two technical guys, developers are coming on, we dig into what they did. Howie Xu from Zscaler, Paula Hansen is going to talk about going to market in the multi-cloud world. You mentioned Rajiv, the CEO of Nutanix, Ramesh is going to talk about multi-cloud infrastructure. So that's going to run now for, you know, quite some time here and some of the pre-record so super excited about that and I just want to thank the crew. I hope guys, I hope you have a list of credits there's too many of you to mention, but you know, awesome jobs really appreciate the work that you did in a very short amount of time. >> Well, I'm excited. I learned a lot and my takeaway was that Supercloud's a thing, there's a kind of sense that people want to talk about it and have real conversations, not BS or FUD. They want to have real substantive conversations and we're going to enable that on "theCUBE". Dave, final thoughts for you. >> Well, I mean, as I say, we put this together very quickly. It was really a phenomenal, you know, enlightening experience. I think it confirmed a lot of the concepts and the premises that we've put forth, that David Floyer helped evolve, that a lot of these analysts have helped evolve, that even Charles Fitzgerald with his antagonism helped to really sharpen our knives. So, you know, thank you Charles. And- >> I like his blog, by the I'm a reader- >> Yeah, absolutely. And it was great to be back in Palo Alto. It was my first time back since pre-COVID, so, you know, great job. >> All right. I want to thank all the crew and everyone. Thanks for watching this first, inaugural Supercloud event. We are definitely going to be doing more of these. So stay tuned, maybe face-to-face in person. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante now for the Ecosystem chiming in, and they're going to speak and share their thoughts here with "theCUBE" our first live stage performance event in our studio. Thanks for watching. (gentle upbeat music)

welcome back to thecube's live coverage coming to you from the big apple in new york city we're talking all things aws summit but right now i've got two powerhouses you know them you love them john furrier dave vellante going to be talking about super cloud guys we've been talking a lot about this there's a big event coming up on the cube august 9th and i gotta start dave with you because we talk about it pretty much in every interview where it's relevant why super cloud yeah so john furrier years ago started a tradition lisa prior to aws which was to lay down the expectation for our audiences what they should be looking for at aws reinvent okay john when did that start 2012 2013. actually 2013 was our first but 2015 was the first time when we get access to andy jassy who wasn't doing any briefings and we realized that the whole industry started looking at amazon web services as a structural forcing function of massive change uh some say inflection point we were saying complete redefinition so you wrote the trillion dollar baby yeah right which actually turns into probably multi-trillion dollars we got it right on that one surprisingly it was pretty obvious so every year since then john has published the seminal article prior to reinvent so this year we were talking we're coming out of the isolation economy and john hedwig also also adam silevski was the new ceo so we had a one-on-one with adam that's right and then that's where the convergence between andy jassy and adam celebski kicked in which is essentially those guys work together even though they he went off and boomerang back in as they say in aws but what's interesting was is that adam zluski's point of view piggyback jassy but he had a different twist yeah some so you know low you know people who didn't have really a lot of thought into it said oh he's copying microsoft moving up the stack we're like no no no no no something structural is happening again and so john wrote the piece and he started sharing it we're collaborating he said hey dave take a take a look add your perspectives and then jerry chen had just written castles in the cloud and he talked about sub-markets and we were sort of noodling and one of the other things was in 2018 2019 around that time at aws re invent there was this friction between like snowflake and aws because redshift separated compute from storage which was snowflake's whole thing now fast forward to 2021 after we're leaving you know the covert economy by the way everyone was complaining they are asking jassy are you competing with your ecosystem the classic right trope and then in in remember jason used to use cloudera as the example i would like to maybe pick a better example snowflake became that example and what the transition was it went from hey we're kind of competitive for sure there's a lot of examples but it went from we're competitive they're stealing our stuff to you know what we're making so much money building on top of aws specifically but also the clouds and cross clouds so we said there's something new happening in the ecosystem and then just it popped up this term super cloud came up to connote a layer that floats above the hyperscale capex not is it's not pass it's not sas it's the combination of the of those things on top of a new digital infrastructure and we chose the term super cloud we liked it better than multi-cloud because multiplayer at least one other point too i think four or five years earlier dave and i across not just aws reinvent all of our other events we were speculating that there might be a tier two cloud service provider models and we've talked with intel about this and others just kind of like evaluating it staring at it and we met by tier two like maybe competing against amazon but what happened was it wasn't a tier two cloud it was a super cloud built on the capex of aws which means initially was a company didn't have to build aws to be like aws and everybody wanted to be like aws so we saw the emergence of the smart companies saying hey let's refactor our business model in the category or industry scope and to dominate with cloud scale and they did it that then continued that was the premise of chen's post which was kind of rift on the cube initially which is you can have a moat in a castle in the cloud and have a competitive advantage and a sustainable differentiation model and that's exactly what's happening and then you introduce the edge and hybrid you now have a cloud operating model that that super cloud extends as a substrate across all environments so it's not multi-cloud which sounds broken and like put it distance jointed joint barriers hybrid cloud which is the hybrid operating model at scale and you don't have to be amazon to take advantage of all the value creation since they took care of the capex now they win too on the other side because because they're selling ec2 and storage and ml and ai and this is new and this is information that people don't might not know about internally at aws there was a debate dave okay i heard this from sources do we go all in and compete and just own the whole category or open the ecosystem and coexist with [ __ ] why do we have these other companies or snowflake and guess what the decision was let's make it open ecosystem and let's have our own offerings as well and let the winner take off smart because they can't hire enough people and we just had aws and snowflake on the cube a few weeks ago talking about the partnership the co-op petition the value in it but what's been driving it is the voice of the customer but i want to ask you paint the picture for the audience of the critical key components of super cloud what are those yeah so i think first and foremost super cloud as john was saying it's not multi-cloud chuck whitten had a great phrase at dell tech world he said multi-cloud by default right versus multi-cloud by design and multi-cloud has been by default it's been this sort of i run in aws and i run my stack in azure or i run my stack in gcp and it works or i wrap my stack in a container and host it in the cloud that's what multi-cloud has been so the first sort of concept is it's a layer that that abstracts the underlying complexity of all the clouds all the primitives uh it takes advantage of maybe graviton or microsoft tooling hides all that and builds new value on top of that the other piece of of super cloud is it's ecosystem driven really interesting story you just told because literally amazon can't hire everybody right so they have to rely on the ecosystem for feature acceleration so it's it also includes a path layer a super pass layer we call it because you need to develop applications that are specific to the problem that the super cloud is solving so it's not a generic path like openshift it's specific to whether it's snowflake or [ __ ] or aviatrix so that developers can actually build on top of and not have to worry about that underlying and also there's some people that are criticizing um what we're doing in a good way because we want to have an open concept sure but here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand they're criticizing or trying to kind of shoot holes in our new structural change that we're identifying to comparing it to old that's like saying mainframe and mini computers it's like saying well the mainframe does it this way therefore there's no way that's going to be legitimate so the old thinking dave is from people that have no real foresight in the new model right and so they don't really get it right so what i'm saying is that we look at structural change structural change is structural change it either happens or it doesn't so what we're observing is the fact that a snowflake didn't design their solution to be multi-cloud they did it all on aws and then said hey why would we why are we going to stop there let's go to azure because microsoft's got a boatload of customers because they have a vertically stacking integration for their install base so if i'm snowflake why wouldn't i be on azure and the same for gcp and the same for other things so this idea that you can get the value of an amp what amazon did leverage and all that value without paying for it up front is a huge dynamic and that's not just saying oh that's cloud that's saying i have a cloud-like scale cloud-like value proposition which which will look like an ecosystem so to me the acid test is if i build on top of say [ __ ] or say snowflake or super cloud by default i'm either a category leader i own the data at scale or i'm sharing data at scale and i have an ecosystem people are building on top of me so that's a platform so that's really difficult so what's happening is these ecosystem partners are taking advantage as john said of all the hyperscale capex and they're building out their version of a distributed global system and then the other attribute of super cloud is it's got metadata management capability in other words it knows if i'm optimizing for latency where in the super cloud to get the data or how to protect privacy or sovereignty or how many copies to make to have the proper data protection or where the air gap should be for ransomware so these are examples of very specific purpose-built super clouds that are filling gaps that the hyperscalers aren't going after what's a good example of a specific super cloud that you think really articulates what you guys are talking about i think there are a lot of them i think snowflake is a really good example i think vmware is building a multi-cloud management system i think aviatrix and virtual you know private cloud networking and for high performance networking i think to a certain extent what oracle is doing with azure is is is definitely looks like a super cloud i think what capital one is doing by building on to taking their own tools and and and moving that to snowflake now that they're not cross-cloud yet but i predict that they will be of i think uh what veeam is doing in data protection uh dell what they showed at dell tech world with project alpine these are all early examples of super well here's an indicator here's how you look at the example so to me if you're just lifting and shifting that was the first gen cloud that's not changing the business model so i think the number one thing to look at is is the company whether they're in a vertical like insurance or fintech or financial are they refactoring their spend not as an i.t cost but as a refactoring of their business model yes like what snowflake did dave or they say okay i'm gonna change how i operate not change my business model per se or not my business identity if i'm gonna provide financial services i don't have to spend capex it's operating expenses i get the capex leverage i redefine i get the data at scale and now i become a service provider to everybody else because scale will determine the power law of who wins in the verticals and in the industry so we believe that snowflake is a data warehouse in the cloud they call it a data cloud now i don't think snowflake would like that dave i call them a data warehouse no a super data cloud but but so the other key here is you know the old saying that andreessen came up with i guess with every company's a software company well what does that mean it means every company software company every company is going digital well how are they going to do that they're going to do that by taking their business their data their tooling their proprietary you know moat and moving that to the cloud so they can compete at scale every company should be if they're not thinking about doing a super cloud well walmart i think i think andreessen's wrong i think i would revise and say that andreessen and the brain trust at andreas and horowitz is that that's no longer irrelevant every company isn't a software company the software industry is called open source everybody is an open source company and every company will be at super cloud that survives yeah to me to me if you're not looking at super cloud as a strategy to get value and refactor your business model take advantage of what you're paying it for but you're paying now in a new way you're building out value so that's you're either going to be a super cloud or get services from a super cloud so if you're not it's like the old joke dave if you're at the table and you don't know who the sucker is it's probably you right so if you're looking at the marketplace you're saying if i'm not a super cloud i'm probably gonna have to work with one because they're gonna have the data they're gonna have the insights they're gonna have the scale they're going to have the castle in the cloud and they will be called a super cloud so in customer conversations helping customers identify workloads to move to the cloud what are the ideal workloads and services to run in super cloud so i honestly think virtually any workload could be a candidate and i think that it's really the business that they're in that's going to define the workload i'll say what i mean so there's certain businesses where low latency high performance transactions are going to matter that's you know kind of the oracle's business there's certain businesses like snowflake where data sharing is the objective how do i share data in a governed way in a secure way in any location across the world that i can monetize so that's their objective you take a data protection company like veeam their objective is to protect data so they have very specific objectives that ultimately dictate what the workload looks like couchbase is another one they they in my opinion are doing some of the most interesting things at the edge because this is where when you when you really push companies in the cloud including the hyperscalers when they get out to the far edge it starts to get a little squishy couchbase actually is developing capabilities to do that and that's to me that's the big wild card john i think you described it accurately the cloud is expanding you've got public clouds no longer just remote services you're including on-prem and now expanding out to the near edge and the deep what do you call it deep edge or far edge lower sousa called the tiny edge right deep edge well i mean look at look at amazon's outpost announcement to me hp e is opportunity dell has opportunities the hardware box guys companies they have an opportunity to be that gear to be an outpost to be their own output they get better stacks they have better gear they just got to run cloud on it yeah right that's an edge node right so so that's that would be part of the super cloud so this is where i think people that are looking at the old models like operating systems or systems mindsets from the 80s they look they're not understanding the new architecture what i would say to them is yeah i hear what you're saying but the structural change is the nodes on the network distributed computing if you will is going to run hybrid cloud all the way across the fact that it's multiple clouds is just coincidence on who's got the best capex value that people build on for their super cloud capability so why wouldn't i be on azure if microsoft's going to give me all their customers that are running office 365 and teams great if i want to be on amazon's kind of sweet which is their ecosystem why wouldn't i want to tap into that so again you can patch it all together in the super cloud so i think the future will be distributed computing cloud architecture end to end and and we felt that was different from multi-cloud you know if you want to call it multi-cloud 2.0 that's fine but you know frankly you know sometimes we get criticized for not defining it tightly enough but we continue to evolve that definition i've never really seen a great definition from multi-cloud i think multi-cloud by default was the definition i run in multiple clouds you know it works in azure it's not a strategy it's a broken name it's a symptom right it's a symptom of multi-vendor is really what multi-cloud has been and so we felt like it was a new term of examples look what we're talking about snowflake data bricks databricks another good one these are these are examples goldman sachs and we felt like the term immediately connotes something bigger something that sits above the clouds and is part of a digital platform you know the people poo poo the metaverse because it's really you know not well defined but every 15 or 20 years this industry goes through dave let me ask you a question so uh lisa you too if i'm in the insurance vertical uh and i'm a i'm an insurance company i have competitors my customers can go there and and do business with that company and you know and they all know that they go to the same conferences but in that sector now you have new dynamics your i.t spend isn't going to keep the lights on and make your apps work your back-end systems and your mobile app to get your whatever now it's like i have cloud scale so what if i refactored my business model become a super cloud and become the major primary service provider to all the competitors and the people that are the the the channel partners of the of the ecosystem that means that company could change the category totally okay and become the dominant category leader literally in two three years if i'm geico okay i i got business in the cloud because i got the app and i'm doing transactions on geico but with all the data that they're collecting there's adjacent businesses that they can get into maybe they're in the safety business maybe they can sell data to governments maybe they can inform logistics and highway you know patterns roll up all the people that don't have the same scale they have and service them with that data and they get subscription revenue and they can build on top of the geico super insurance cloud right yes it's it's unlimited opportunity that's why it's but the multi-trillion dollar baby so talk to us you've done an amazing job of talking which i know you would of why super cloud what it is the critical components the key workloads great examples talk to us in our last few minutes about the event the cube on super cloud august 9th what's the audience going to who are they going to hear from what are they going to learn yeah so august 9th live out of our palo alto studio we're going to have a program that's going to run from 9 a.m to 1 p.m and we're going to have a number of industry luminaries in there uh kit colbert from from vmware is going to talk about you know their strategy uh benoit de javille uh from snowflake is going to is going to be there of g written house of sky-high security um i i i don't want to give it away but i think steve mullaney is going to come on adrian uh cockroft is coming on the panel keith townsend sanjeev mohan will be on so we'll be running that live and also we'll be bringing in pre-recorded interviews that we'll have prior to the show that will run post the live event it's really a pilot virtual event we want to do a physical event we're thinking but the pilot is to bring our trusted friends together they're credible that have industry experience to try to understand the scope of what we're talking about and open it up and help flesh out the definition make it an open model where we can it's not just our opinion we're observing identifying the structural changes but bringing in smart people our smart friends and companies are saying yeah we get behind this because it has it has legs for a reason so we're gonna zoom out and let people participate and let the conversation and the community drive the content and that is super important to the cube as you know dave but i think that's what's going on lisa is that it's a pilot if it has legs we'll do a physical event certainly we're getting phones to bring it off the hook for sponsors so we don't want to go and go all in on sponsorships right now because it's not about money making it's about getting that super cloud clarity around to help companies yeah we want to evolve the concept and and bring in outside perspectives well the community is one of the best places to do that absolutely organic it's an organic community where i mean people want to find out what's going on with the best practices of how to transform a business and right now digital transformation is not just getting digitized it's taking advantage of the technology to leapfrog the competition so all the successful people we talked to at least have the same common theme i'm changing my game but not changing my game to the customer i'm just going to do it differently better faster cheaper more efficient and have higher margins and beat the competition that's the company doesn't want to beat the competition go to thecube.net if you're not all they're all ready to register for the cube on supercloud august 9th 9am pacific you won't want to miss it for john furrier and dave vellante i'm lisa martin we're all coming at you from new york city at aws summit 22. i'll be right back with our next guest [Music] you

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante last week's aws re invent brought into focus the degree to which cloud computing generally and aws specifically have impacted the technology landscape from making infrastructure orders of magnitude simpler to deploy to accelerating the pace of innovation to the formation of the world's most active and vibrant infrastructure ecosystem it's clear that aws has been the number one force for change in the technology industry in the last decade now going forward we see three high-level contributors from aws that will drive the next 10 years of innovation including one the degree to which data will play a defining role in determining winners and losers two the knowledge assimilation effect of aws's cultural processes such as two pizza teams customer obsession and working backwards and three the rise of super clouds that is clouds that run on top of hyperscale infrastructure that focus not only on i.t transformation but deeper business integration and digital transformation of entire industries hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll review some of the takeaways from the 10th annual aws re invent conference and focus on how we see the rise of super clouds impacting the future of virtually all industries one of the most poignant moments for me was a conversation with steve mullaney at aw aws re invent he's the ceo of networking company aviatrix now just before we went on the cube nick sterile one of aviatrix's vcs looked up at steve and said it's happening now before i explain what that means this was the most important hybrid event of the year you know no one really knew what the crowd would be like but well over twenty 000 people came to reinvent and i'd say at least 25 to 26 000 people attended the expo and probably another 10 000 or more came without badges to have meetings and side meetings and do networking off the expo floor so let's call it somewhere between thirty to forty thousand people physically attended the reinvent and another two hundred thousand or more online so huge event now what nick sterile meant by its happening was the next era of cloud innovation is upon us and it's happening in earnest the cloud is expanding out to the edge aws is bringing its operating model its apis its primitives and services to more and more locations yes data and machine learning are critical we talk about that all the time but the ecosystem flywheel was so evident at this year's re invent more so than any other re invent partners were charged up you know there wasn't nearly as much chatter about aws competing with them rather there was much more excitement around the value that partners are creating on top of aws's massive platform now despite aggressive marketing from competitive hyperscalers other cloud providers and as a service or on-prem slash hybrid offerings aws lead appears to be accelerating a notable example is aws's efforts around custom silicon far more companies especially isvs are tapping into aws's silicon advancements we saw the announcement of graviton 3 and new chips for training and inference and as we've reported extensively aws is now on a curve a silicon curve that will outpace x86 vis-a-vis performance price performance cost power consumption and speed of innovation and its nitro platform is giving aws and its partners the greatest degree of optionality in the industry from cpus gpus intel amd and nvidia and very importantly arm-based custom silicon springing from aws's acquisition of annapurna aws started its custom silicon journey in 2008 and is and it has invested massive resources into this effort other hyperscalers notably microsoft google and alibaba which have the scale economics to justify such custom silicon efforts are just recently announcing initiatives in this regard others who don't have the scale will be relying on third-party silicon providers a perfectly reasonable strategy but because aws has control of the entire stack we believe it has a strategic advantage in this respect silicon especially is a domain where to quote andy jassy there is no compression algorithm for experience b on the curve matters a lot and the biggest story in my view this past week was the rise of the super clouds in his 2020 book with steve hamm frank slootman laid out the case for the rise of data cloud a title which i've conveniently stolen for this breaking analysis rise of the super cloud thank you frank in his book slootman made a case for companies to put data at the center of their organizations rather than organizing just around people for example the idea is to create data networks while people of course are critical organizing around data and enabling people to access and share data will lead to the democracy democratization of data and network effects will kick in this was essentially metcalfe's law for data bob metcalf was the inventor of ethernet ethernet he put forth that premise when we we both worked or the premise when we both worked for pat mcgovern at idg that the value of a network is proportional to the square of the number of its users or nodes on the network thought of another way the first connection isn't so valuable but the billionth connection is really valuable slootman's law if i may says the more people that have access to the data governed of course and the more data connections that can be shared or create sharing the more value will be realized from that data exponential value in fact okay but what is a super cloud super cloud is an architecture that taps the underlying services and primitives of hyperscale clouds to deliver incremental value above and beyond what's available from the public cloud provider a super cloud delivers capabilities through software consumed as services and can run on a single hyperscale cloud or span multiple clouds in fact to the degree that a super cloud can span multiple clouds and even on-premises workloads and hide the underlying complexity of the infrastructure supporting this work the more adoption and the more value will be realized now we've listed some examples of what we consider to be super clouds in the making snowflake is an example we use frequently frequently building a data cloud that spans multiple clouds and supports distributed data but governs that data centrally somewhat consistent with the data mesh approach that we've been talking about for quite some time goldman sachs announced at re invent this year a new data management cloud the goldman sachs financial cloud for data with amazon web services we're going to come back to that later nasdaq ceo adina friedman spoke at the day one keynote with adam silipsky of course the new ceo of aws and talked about the super cloud they're building they didn't use that term that's our term dish networks is building a super cloud to power 5g wireless networks united airlines is really in my view they're porting applications to aws as part of its digital transformation but eventually it will start building out a super cloud travel platform what was most significant about the united effort is the best practices they're borrowing from aws like small teams and moving fast but many others that we've listed here are on a super cloud journey just some of the folks we talked to at reinvent that are building clouds on top of clouds that are shown here cohesity building out a data management cloud focused on data protection and governance hashicorp announced its ipo at a 13 billion valuation building an it automation super cloud data bricks chaos search z-scaler z-scaler is building a security super cloud and many others that we spoke with at the event now we want to take a moment to talk about castles in the cloud it's a premise put forth by jerry chen and the team at greylock it's a really important piece of work that is building out a data set and categorizing the various cloud services to better understand where the cloud giants are investing where startups can participate and how companies can play in the castles that are being built that have been built by the hyperscalers and how they can cross the moats that have been dug and where innovation opportunities exist for other companies now frequently i'm challenged about our statements that there really are only four hyperscalers that exist in the world today aws microsoft google and alibaba while we recognize that companies like oracle have done a really excellent job of improving their clouds we don't consider companies like oracle ibm and other managed service providers as hyperscalers and one of the main data points that we use to defend our thinking is capex investment this was a point that was made in castles in the cloud there are many others that we look at elder kpi size of ecosystem partner acceleration enablement for partners feature sets etc but capex is a big one here's a chart from platform nomics a firm that is obsessed with cl with capex showing annual capex spend for five cloud companies amazon google microsoft ibm and oracle this data goes through 2019 it's annual spend and we've superimposed the direction for each of these companies amazon spent more than 40 billion dollars on capex in 2020 and will spend more than 50 billion this year sure there are some warehouses for the amazon retail business in there and there's other capital expenses in these numbers but the vast majority spent on building out its cloud infrastructure same with google and microsoft now oracle is at least increasing its cap x it's going to spend about 4 billion but it's de minimis compared to the cloud giants and ibm is headed in the other direction it's choosing to invest for instance 34 billion dollars in acquiring red hat instead of putting its capital into a cloud infrastructure look that's a very reasonable strategy but it underscores the gap okay another metric we look at is i as revenue here's an updated chart that we showed last month in our cloud update which at the time excluded alibaba's most recent quarter results so we've updated that very slight change it wasn't really material so you see the four hyperscalers and by the way they invested more than a hundred billion dollars in capex last year it's gonna be larger this year they'll collectively generate more than 120 billion dollars in revenue this year and they're growing at 41 collectively that is remarkable for such a large base of revenue and for aws the rate of revenue growth is accelerating it's the only hyperscaler that can say that that's unreal at their size i mean they're going to do more than 60 billion dollars in revenue this year okay so that's why we say there are only four hyperscalers but so what there are so many opportunities to build on top of the infrastructure that the three u.s giants especially are building as folks are really cautious about china at the moment so let's take a look at what some of the companies that we've been following are doing in the super cloud arena if you will this chart shows some etr data plotting net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share or presence in the etr data set on the horizontal axis most every name on the chart is building some type of super cloud but let me start as we often do calling out aws and azure i guess they're already super clouds but they're not building necessarily on top of of of other people's clouds and there are a little bit you know microsoft does some of that certainly google's doing some of that amazon really bringing its cloud to the edge at this point it's not participating in multi-cloud actively anyway aws and azure they stand alone as the cloud leaders and you can debate what's included in azure in our previous chart on revenue attempts to strip out the microsoft sas business but this is a customer view they see microsoft as a cloud leader which it is so that's why its presence on the horizontal axis and its momentum is is you know very large and very strong stronger than even in aws in this view even though it's is revenue that we showed earlier microsoft is significantly smaller but they both have strong momentum on the vertical axis as shown by that red horizontal line anything above that remember is considered considered elevated that 40 percent or above now google cloud it's well behind these two to we kind of put a red dotted line around it but look at snowflake that blue circle i mean i realize we repeat ourselves often but snowflake continues to hold a net score in the mid to high 70s it held 80 percent for a long time it's getting much much bigger it's so hard to hold that and in 165 mentions in the survey which you can see in the inserted table it continues to expand its market's presence on the horizontal axis now all the technology companies that we track of all of them we feel snowflake's vision and execution on its data cloud and that strategy is most is the most prominent example of a super cloud truly every tech company every company should be paying attention to snowflakes moves and carving out unique value propositions for their customers by standing on the shoulders of cloud giants as ceo ed walsh likes to say now on the left hand side of the chart you can see a number of companies that we spoke with that are in various stages of building out their super clouds data bricks dot spot data robots z z scalar mentioned hashi you see elastic confluent they're all above the forty percent line and somewhat below that line but still respectable we see vmware with tanzu cohesity rubric and veeam and many others that we didn't necessarily speak with directly at reinvent and or they don't show up in the etr dataset now we've also called out cisco dell hpe and ibm we didn't plot them because there's so much other data in there that's not apples to apple but we want to call them up because they all have different points of view and are two varying degrees building super clouds but to be honest these large companies are first protecting their respective on-prem turf you can't blame them those are very large install basis now they're all adding as a service offerings which is cloud-like i mean they're behind way behind trying to figure out you know things like billing and they don't nearly have the ecosystem but they're going to fight rightly they're going to fight hard and compete with their respective portfolios with their channels and their vastly improved simplicity but when you speak to customers at re invent and these are not just startups we're talking to we're talking about customers of these enterprise tech companies these customers want to build on aws they look at aws as cloud and that is the cloud that they want to write to now they want to connect they're on-prem but they're still largely different worlds when you when you talk to these customers now they'll fully admit they can't or won't move everything out of their data centers but the vast vast majority of the customers i spoke with last week at reinvent have much more momentum around moving towards aws they're not repatriating as everybody's talking about or not everybody but many are talking about and yeah there's some recency bias because we just got back but the numbers that we shared earlier don't lie the trend is very clear now these large firms that we mentioned these incumbents in the tech industry these big enterprise tech giants they're starting to move in the super cloud direction and they will have much more credibility around multi-cloud than the hyperscalers but my honest view is that aws's lead is actually accelerating the gap in my opinion is not closing now i want to come back and dig into super cloud a little bit more around 2010 and 2011 we collaborated with two individuals who really shaped our thinking in the big data space peter goldmaker was a cell side analyst at common at the time and abi abhishek meta was with bank of america and b of a was transforming its data operations and avi was was leading that now peter was you know an analyst sharp and less at the time he said you know it's going to be the buyers of big data technology and those that apply big data to their operations who would create the most value he used an example of sap he said look you you couldn't have chosen that sap was going to lead an erp but if you could have figured out who which companies were going to apply erp to their business you would have made a lot of money investing so that was kind of one of his investment theses now he posited that the companies that would apply the big data technology the buyers if you will would create far more value than the cloud errors or the hortonworks or a collection of other number of big data players and clearly he was right in that regard now abi mehta was an example of that and he posited that ecosystems would evolve within vertical industries around data kind of going back to frank slootman's premise that in putting data at the core and that would power the next generation of value creation via data machine learning and business transformation and he was right and that's what we're seeing with the rise of super cloud now after the after the first reinvent we published a post seen on the right hand side of this chart on wikibon about the making of a new gorilla aws and we said the way to compete would be to take an industry focus or one way to compete with take an industry focus and become best to breed within that industry and we aligned really with abbey meta's point of view that industry ecosystems would evolve around data and offer opportunities for non-hyperscalers to compete now what we didn't predict at the time but are now seeing clearly emerge is that these super clouds are going to be built on top of aws and other hyperscale clouds makes sense goldman's financial cloud for data is taking a page out of aws it's pointing its proprietary data algorithms tools and processes at its clients just like amazon did with its technology and it's making these assets available as a service on top of the aws cloud a super cloud for financial services if you will they are relying on aws for infrastructure compute storage networking security and other services like sagemaker to power that super cloud but they're bringing their own ip to the table nasdaq and dish similarly bringing forth their unique value and as i said as i said earlier united airlines will in our view eventually evolve from migrating its apps portfolio to the cloud to building out a super cloud for travel what about your logo what's your super cloud strategy i'm sure you've been thinking about it or perhaps you're already well down the road i'd love to hear how you're doing it and if you see the trends the same or differently as we do okay that's it for now don't forget these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen all you do is search breaking analysis podcast you definitely want to check out etr's website at etr.plus for all the survey data remember we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can email me if you want to get in touch with david.velante at siliconangle.com you can dm me at devolante on twitter you can comment on our linkedin posts this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week stay safe be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>>from Santa Clara, California. In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Okay, welcome back. Altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed. Welcome >>back. I'm John Furrier with the Cube with Steve Mullaney, CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators of folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking Got a great panel. George Buckman with D XY and Derek Monaghan with W W t. Welcome to the stage. >>Okay, right. Yeah. Yeah. >>Okay. You guys are the ones out there advising, building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native networking. We just heard from the customer panel You can see the diversity of where people come into the journey of cloud. It kind of depends upon where you are, but the trends are all clear. Cloud native networking, Dev. Ops up and down the stack. This has been the main engine. What's your guys take of the journey to multi cloud what you're seeing? No. >>Yeah, it's critical. I mean, we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this. They've been >>through >>the migrations of the easy stuff, you know? Now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement. So now the tough stuff is coming on, right? And you know, they need their data processing near where their data is, so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment. >>We heard some of the edge stuff you guys are. You're seeing this movie before, but now it's >>a whole new >>ballgame. What's your take? >>Yeah, so I'll give you a hint. Our practices not called the cloud practice. It's the multi cloud practice. And so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things very consultative. And so when we look at what the trends are a little over a year ago, about a year ago we're having conversations with customers. Let's build a data center in the cloud. Let's put some VP sees that sort of firewalls. Put some DNS and other infrastructure out there, and let's hope it works. This isn't a science project, so we're trying to, We're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision. We're helping with that consultative nature, but it's totally based on the business, and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the APS. And then we evolve into that next journey, which is a foundational >>approach to what are some of the problem statement that your customers are solving when they come to you? One of the top things that are on there, my house to the ease of use, agility, all that stuff. But what specifically they did, digging into >>some complexity? I think when you look at a multi cloud approach, in my view is network requirements are complex. You know, I think they are. But I think the approach can be Let's simplify that. So one thing that we try to do and this is how we talk to customers. Let's just like you. Simplifying aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking. We're trying to simplify the design, the planning, implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms. And so the way we do it is we sit down. We look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common. We anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements. We build out a strategy and then create a set of documents. And guess what? We actually build in the lab. And that lab that we platform built proves out this reference architecture actually >>work? Absolutely. We we implement similar concepts. I mean, they're proven practices. They work great. So, >>George, you mentioned that the hard part is now upon us. Are you referring to networking? What specifically are you getting? And Terrence is the easy part. Done that before the >>enterprises themselves, migrating their more critical APS or more difficult taps into the environments. You know, they just we just scratched the surface. I believe on what enterprises they're doing to move into the cloud, to optimize their environments, to take advantage of the scale and speed, to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses. So they're just now really starting the >>you get. You guys see what I talked about in terms of the Cambrian explosion? I mean, you're both monster system integrators with, you know, top fortune Enterprise customers, you know, really rely on you for guidance and consulting and so forth and deploy their >>networks. Is that something that you have seen? Does that resonate? Did you notice a year and 1/2 ago. All of a sudden, the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up. >>Yeah. I mean, we're seeing it in our internal environment. You know, we're a huge company or those customer zero r and D. So we're experiencing that internal, Okay? Every one of our other >>customers. So I have another question, but I don't know the answer to this. And the lawyer never asked the question that you don't know the answer to, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. DXC and WWD massive system integrators. >>Why aviatrix >>So great question, Steve. So I think the way we approach things, I think we have a similar vision of similar strategy. How you approach things, how we approach things, that world wide technology number one. We want to simplify the complexity. And so that's your number. One priority is let's take the networking, but simplify it. And I think part of the other point I'm making is we have ah, we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore. If you look at what customers care about, visibility and automation is probably the top three. Maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value. Now I think the partnership that we're building and what I would I get excited about is not just putting years in our lab and showing customers how it works is co developing a solution with figuring out Hey, how can we >>make this better? Visibility's a huge thing In security alone network. Everything's around visibility. What automation you see happening in terms of progression, Order of operations, if you will. What's the low hanging fruit? What are people working on now? What are you What are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud and automation? Yep. So I wanted to get back to answer that question. >>I want to answer your question. You know what led us there and why aviatrix, you know, in working some large internal I t projects and looking at how we're gonna integrate the solutions, you know, we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch up in the Dev ops world, but with a Dev ops mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things. So when you start building your recipes to take a little of this, a little of that, and you mix it all together. Well, when you look around, you say, Wow, look, there's this big bag of 88. Let me plot that in. That solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate, speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run. This. So that was the 11 years about reference architectures. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, they came with a a full slate of reference architectures already out there and ready to go. That fit our needs. So it's very, very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes. What >>do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on? Choice has been a big part of multi cloud in terms of, you know, customers want choice didn't put a workload in the cloud that works. But this notion of choice and interoperability has become a big conversation. >>It is, and I think, the approach, and that's why we talk to customers. It's let's let's speed and the risk of that decision making process, and how do we do that cause interoperability is key. You're not just putting. It's not just a single vendor. We're talking, you know, many, many vendors. I mean, think about the average number of cloud applications. The customer uses a business and enterprise business today. You know, it's it's above 30. It's skyrocketing. So what we do and we look at it from the interoperability approach is how to things Inter operate. We test it out, we validate it. We build a reference. Architectures says. These are the critical design elements. Now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix. And I think the important part there, though, is the automation piece that we had to it in visibility. So I think the visibility is what I see. Lacking cross >>industry today, Cloud native, that's been a big topic. Okay, in terms of aviatrix that you guys see them coming in, they're one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multi cloud. You still got the old guard incomes with huge footprints. How are customers dealing with that kind of component and dealing with >>both of them? Yeah. I mean, where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor. And, you know, we have partnerships with many vendors. So our objective is to provide a solution that meets that client. >>And you they all want multi vendor. They all want interoperability. Correct. Alright. So I got to ask you guys a question. What? We're defining day two operations. What does that mean? I mean, you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture. What is day to operations? I mean, what's the definition of that? >>Yeah. So I think from our perspective, my experience, we, you know, day to operations, whether it's not just the, you know, the orchestration piece and setting up and let it lot automate and have some, you know, change control. You're looking at this from a data perspective. How do we support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolved. The cloud is very dynamic. The the nature of how the fastest expanding the number of features is astonishing trying to keep up to date with number of just networking capabilities and services that are added. So I think Day two operations starts with a fundamental understanding of, you know, building out supporting customers environments and making it the automation piece Easy >>from from, you know, distance. Yeah, and you know, taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose. Hey, I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on Prem and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering >>for the folks watching out there. Guys take a minute to explain, As you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work. What are some of the engagement that you guys get into? How does that progress? What is the what's what happens there? They call you up and say, Hey, I need a multi cloud or you already in there and >>take us through. Why? How >>someone can engage to use a global less side to come in and make this thing happen? What's the typical engagement look like? >>Yeah, So from our perspective, we typically have a series of workshops and a methodology that we kind of go along the journey Number one. We have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation, meaning the network Foundation That's a very critical element. We got a factor in security. We got a factor in automation. So we think about foundation. We do a workshop that starts with education. A lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer. What is VPC share? You know what is a private Lincoln Azure? How does that impact your business? We have customers. I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners. Well, there's many ways to accomplish that. So our goal is to understand those requirements and then build >>that strategy with them. Yeah, I mean, I'm one of the guys. It's down in the weeds making things happen. So I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day. But we have a similar approach. You know, we have a consulting practice that will go out and apply their practices to see what >>and when do you parachute in? >>Yeah, And when I say is I'm on the back end working with our offering. Development leads for the networking. So we understand are seeing what customers are asking for and we're in the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers that just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs. So the patterns air similar. >>All right, final question for you guys. I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like. And you know, the name customers, you know, to get and reveal kind of who they are. But what does success look like in multi cloud? You paint a picture for the folks here and watching the livestream. If someone says, Hey, I want to be multi cloud. I have my operations agile. I want Full Dev ops. I want program ability. Security built in from day zero. What does success look like? Yeah, >>I think success looks like this. So when you're building out a network, the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud. So what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have, most of our customers are on to public clouds. Today they might be dabbling is you build that network foundation an architecture that takes in consideration where you're going. And so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to approach it from a multi cloud perspective, not a single cloud. And let's not forget their branches. Let's not forget our data centers. Let's not forget how all this connects together cause that's how we define multi cloud. It's not just in the cloud, it's on Prem and it's off Prem. And so, collectively, I think the key is also is that we provide them in HLD. You got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked. You go through the journey, but you got to give a salad structural foundation and that networking, which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers put as an afterthought. We want to make that the most critical >>element. Before you start the journey, George, from your seat had a success look for you. >>So you know, it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen with what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud. So I want the success to me. Looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud. >>Guys, great insight. Thanks for coming on. Sharing a round of applause for the global >>system integrators, right? >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from Santa Clara, California In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Okay, welcome back to altitude. 2020 for the folks on the Livestream. I'm John Furrier Steve Mullaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with Cloud Network Architects. We got Bobby. Will be They gone. Luis Castillo, National Instruments. David should nick with fact set. Guys, welcome >>to the stage for this digital >>event. Come on up. >>Hey, good to see you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah. >>Okay. Customer panel. This is my favorite part. We get to hear the real scoop. Get the gardener. Given this the industry overview. Certainly multi clouds, very relevant. And cloud native networking is the hot trend with live stream out there in the digital events of guys. Let's get into it. The journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and soon going to be a lot more coming. So I want to get into the journey. What's it been like? Is it really got a lot of scar tissue? Uh, what is some of the learnings >>Yeah, absolutely. So multi Cloud is whether or not we accepted as network engineers is a reality. Um, like Steve said about two years ago, companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and move there. Whether or not whether or not we accept that fact, we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging, um, without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds. So that's it's it's really important to start thinking about that. You >>guys are on the other Panelists here this different phases of this journey. Some come at it from a networking perspective. Some comment from a problem. Troubleshooting. Which What's your experiences? >>Yeah, so, uh, from a networking perspective, it's been incredibly exciting. It's kind of a once in a generational opportunity to look at how you're building out your network. You can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years. But it just never really worked on Prem, so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have And then all the interesting challenges that come up that you, uh, that you get to tackle >>and in fact said, you guys are mostly aws, right? >>Right now, though, where we are looking at multiple clouds, we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today. But a lot of the initial work has been with them, >>and you see it from a networking perspective. That's where you guys are coming at it from. Yep. Yeah. So >>we evolved more from a customer requirement. Perspective started out primarily is AWS. But as the customer needed mawr resources manager like HPC, you know, Azure A D. Things like that. Even recently, Google do analytics. Our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment. >>Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation. I want you to lead this sector. >>Yeah, so I mean, I think you guys agreed that journey. It seems like the journey started a couple of years ago got real serious. The need for multi cloud, whether you're there today. Of course it's going to be there in the future, so that's really important. I think the next thing is just architecture. I love to hear what you you had some comments about architecture matters. It all starts. I mean, every enterprise I talked to maybe talk about architecture in the importance of architecture. Maybe Bobby >>is from architectural perspective. We started our journey five years ago. Wow. Okay. And we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect. Okay? And we call it networking security. Net sec versus just network on that. Fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto networks and aviatrix aviatrix doing the orchestration piece of it. But that journey came because of the need for simplicity, the need for a multi cloud orchestration without having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along. >>Right? I guess. The other question, I I also had around architectures also, Louise, maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about scripting right and some of your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so for us, we started, We started creating Ah, the network constructs with cloud formation. And we've stuck with that, for the most part. What's interesting about that is today on premise, we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks, but confirmation has become a little bit like the new manual for us. So we're now having issues with having the automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture, making it consistent with azure architecture and Google Cloud. So it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD Wan brought to the to the wan side. Now it's going up into into the cloud networking architectures, >>right? So on the fourth generation of you mentioned, you're 1/4 gen architecture. What do you guys? What have you learned? Is there any lessons? Scar tissue, what to avoid? What worked? What was some of the >>one of the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out, you haven't right? Amazon will change something as you change something, you know, transit gateway, the game changer eso uh, and listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front. But I think from a simplicity perspective, we said We don't want to do things four times. We want two things. One time we want to have a right to an AP I, which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times. How >>important is architecture in the progression, is it? You guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it. I mean, how are you guys looking at the architecture? >>I mean, you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there. So all of those things we've gone through similar evolutions. We're on our fourth or fifth evolution. Uh, I think about what We started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway without a transit gateway without ah, a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80 20 that Steve was talking about. Just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it, so we >>needed to figure out a way to do it. We >>couldn't say. You need to come back to the network team in a year. Maybe Amazon will have a solution for you. We need to do it now and evolve later and maybe optimize or change. Really, you're doing things in the future, But don't sit around and wait. You can't. >>I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the livestream that comes up a lot. A lot of cloud architects out in the community. What should they be thinking about? The folks that are coming into this proactively and are realizing the business benefits are there? What advice would you guys give them? An architecture, which should be they be thinking about and what some guiding principles you could share. >>So I would start with, ah, looking at an architectural model that that can, that can spread and and give consistency the different two different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support. Um, cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native tool set, and that's good. If only it was realistic, too. Talk about only one cloud, but because it doesn't, it's it's, um, it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model. >>How do I do my day one work so that I'm not spending 80% of my time troubleshooting or managing my network. Because if I'm doing that, then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements to embrace new technologies. So it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on. >>Bobby. Your advice? The architect. I >>don't know what else I can add to. That simplicity of operations is gives key. >>Alright, so the holistic view of Day two operation you mentioned let's could jump in. Day one is you're getting stuff set up. Day two is your life after. This is what you're getting at, David. So what does that look like? What are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stare out post multi cloud world one of the things that you want in a day to operations? >>Yeah, infrastructure as code is really important to us. So how do we How do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and putting them into like, a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router cli and troubleshooting things on an ad hoc nature. So moving more towards the Devil Ops model. >>Here's the thing I had on that day two. >>Yeah, I would. I would love to add something. So in terms of day two operations, you can you can either sort of ignore the day two operations for a little while where you get well, you get your feet wet, um, or you can start approaching it from the beginning. The fact is that the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space. And when you run into an issue, you're gonna end up having a bad day, going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on. So that's something that the industry just now is beginning to realize. It's It's such a such a big gap. >>I think that's key, because for us, we're moving to more of an event driven or operations. In the past. Monitoring got the job done. It is impossible to modern monitor something that's not there when the event happens, right, so the event driven application and then detection is important. >>I think Gardner is about the Cloud Native wave coming into networking. That's going to be a serious thing. I want to get you guys perspective. I know you have different views of how you came into the journey and how you're executing. And I always say the beauty's in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies the networks laid out. So, Bobby, you guys do a lot of high performance encryption both on AWS and Azure. That's kind of a unique thing for you. How are you seeing that impact with multi cloud? >>And that's a new requirement for us to where we, uh we have a requirement to encrypt, and they never get the question Should encryption and encrypt. The answer is always yes, you should encrypt. You should get encrypt for perspective. We we need to moderate a bunch of data from our data centers. We have some huge data centers on. Getting that data to the cloud is is timely experiencing some cases, So we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything, leaving the data center. So we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to decrypt you know 10 20 gigabytes of data as it moves to the cloud itself. David, you're using >>terra form. You've got fire net. You've got a lot of complexity in your network. What do you guys look at the future for your environment? >>Yes. So something exciting that we're working on now is fire net. So for our security team, they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge based around Polito on with our commitments to our clients, you know, it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor it So there's a lot of stock to compliance and things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Prem and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things were gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on Prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier. >>And you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on. What's your what's your unique angle on this? >>Um, yeah. No, absolutely so full disclosure. I'm not not not an aviatrix customer yet. >>It's okay. We want to hear the truth. So that's good. Tell >>us what you're thinking about. What's on your mind. >>No, really, Um, when you when you talk about, um, implementing the to like this, it's It's really just really important. Teoh talk about automation and focus on on value. So when you talk about things like encryption and thinks like so you're encrypting tunnels and encrypting the path and those things are, should it should should be second nature, Really? When you when you look at building those back ends and managing them with your team, it becomes really painful. So tools like aviatrix that that had a lot of automation. It's out of out of sight, out of mind. You can focus on the value you don't have to focus on. >>I got to ask, You guys are seeing the traces here. They're their supplier to the sector, but you guys are customers. Everyone's pitching your stuff that people are not going to buy my stuff. How >>do you >>guys have that conversation with the suppliers, like the cloud vendors and other folks? What's the What's the leg or a P? I all the way you got to support this. What are some >>of the >>what are some of your requirements? How do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want Teoh knock on your door and pitch you something? What's the conversation like? >>It's definitely It's definitely a p. I driven. Um, we we definitely look at the at the structure of the vendors provide before we select anything. Um, that that is always first of mine. And also, what problem are we really trying to solve? Usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable. Like implementing Cisco solution on the on the cloud isn't really doesn't really add a lot of value. >>David, what's your conversations like with suppliers? So you have a certain new way to do things as becomes more agile, essentially networking and more dynamic. What are some of the conversations with the other incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what you require? >>So ease of use is definitely, definitely high up there. We've had some vendors come in and say, Hey, you know, when you go to set this up, we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're going to sit with you for a day to configure. And that's kind of a red flag. Wait a minute. You know, we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own, what's going on there and why is that? So, uh, you know, having having some ease of use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important. >>How about you in the old days was Do a bake off winner takes all. I mean, is it like that anymore? What's evolving Bake off >>last year for us to win, So But that's different now, because now when you when you get the product, you install the product in AWS in azure or have it up and running a matter of minutes. And the key is, can you be operational within hours or days instead of weeks? But we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs, because you want to be. You would be put into a box with the other customers who have needs that pastor cut their needs. >>You can almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value, how you can roll a penny solutions. But then you have might have other needs. So you got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping. So you're trying to be proactive in the same time. Deal with what you got here. How do you guys see that evolving? Because multi cloud to me is definitely relevant. But it's not yet clear how to implement across. How do you guys look at this? Bakes versus, you know, future solutions coming? How do you balance that? >>Um, so again. So right now we were. We're taking the the ad hoc approach and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud on demand, really leveraging the native constructs of each cloud. But but there's there's a breaking point. For sure you don't you don't get to scale this like like Simone said, and you have to focus on being able to deliver Ah, developer their their sandbox play area for the things that they're trying to build quickly. And the only way to do that is with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to. >>So you spent a lot more stuff becoming pretty quickly. >>I was very. I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year, >>and you guys see similar trends. New stuff coming fast. >>Yeah, the one of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network, being able to provide segmentation between production, non production workloads, even businesses, because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there. So the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key. >>So the cios that are watching are saying, Hey, take that hill, do multi cloud and then the bottoms up organization cause you're kind of like off a little bit. It's not how it works. I mean, what is the reality in terms of implementing, you know, and as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear, but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast. What are some of the barriers of blockers? One of the enabler, >>I think the reality is, is that you may not think of multi cloud, but your businesses, right? So I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements. I think in a secure manner, because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective, that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that, you know, if the Tier three application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud, so lift and shift is not the way to go. >>Scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage of all of these clouds, and it used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came. That was a good thing. But as clouds become bigger, there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale. How do you guys keep the choice open? How you guys thinking about interoperability? What is some of the conversations that you guys were having around those key concepts? >>Well, when we look at when we look at the from a networking perspective, it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be able to communicate between them. Developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their business. Um and and like Like you said, it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that your company is in already, Um, that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly. >>Yeah, and the A lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing? So are they swimming with Amazon or azure and just helping facilitate things? They're doing the heavy lifting AP I work for you or are they swimming upstream? And they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way, and so that helps you stay out of the lock in, because there, you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be, it's not like Amazon's going to release something in the future that completely, uh, you know, makes you have designed yourself into a corner. So the closer they're more cloud native, they are, the more, uh, the easier it is to, uh >>to the boy. But you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of the cloud Native technology of limits sets. T J W. Is a game changer in terms of cost and performance. Right. So to completely ignore, that would be wrong. But, you know, if you needed to have encryption teaching double encrypted, so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption. So the aviatrix, too, will give you the beauty of both worlds. You can use T. W or the gateway real >>quick in the last minute we have. I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys. I hear a lot of people say to me, Hey, the pick The best cloud for the workload you got, then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes. So that seems to be Do you guys agree with that? I mean, is it doing one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS. That work was great on this from a cloud standpoint. Do you agree with that premise? And then what is multi cloud stitch them all together? >>Yeah, um, from from an application perspective, it it can be per workload, but It can also be an economical decision. Certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that value. Um, but the the network problem is still the same. >>It doesn't go away. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hole, right? So if it works better on that cloud provider, then it's our job to make sure that that service is there. People can use >>it. Yeah, I agree. You just need to stay ahead of the game. Make sure that the network infrastructure is there. Secure is available and is multi cloud capable. >>Yeah. At the end of the day, you guys just validating that. It's the networking game now. Cloud storage. Compute Check. Networking is where the action is. Awesome. Thanks for your insights. Appreciate you coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(electronic music) >> From Santa Clara, California in the heart of Silicon Valley, its theCUBE. Covering Altitude 2020, brought to you by Aviatrix. (electronic music) >> Female pilot: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking, we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude. (upbeat music) Please keep your seat belts fastened and remain in your seat. We will be experiencing turbulence, until we are above the clouds. (thunder blasting) (electronic music) (seatbelt alert sounds) Ladies and gentlemen, we are now cruising at altitude. Sit back and enjoy the ride. (electronic music) >> Female pilot: Altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers, cloud architects and enlightened network engineers, who have individually and are now collectively, leading their own IT teams and the industry. On a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds. Empowering enterprise IT to architect, design and control their own cloud network, regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them. It's time to gain altitude. Ladies and gentlemen, Steve Mullaney, president and CEO of Aviatrix. The leader of multi-cloud networking. (electronic music) (audience clapping) >> Steve: All right. (audience clapping) Good morning everybody, here in Santa Clara as well as to the millions of people watching the livestream worldwide. Welcome to Altitude 2020, all right. So, we've got a fantastic event, today, I'm really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started. So, one of the things I wanted to share was this is not a one-time event. This is not a one-time thing that we're going to do. Sorry for the Aviation analogy, but, you know, Sherry Wei, aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do has an aviation theme. This is a take-off, for a movement. This isn't an event, this is a take-off of a movement. A multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of. And why we're doing that, is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds, so to speak and build their network architecture, regardless of which public cloud they're using. Whether it's one or more of these public clouds. So the good news, for today, there's lots of good news but this is one good news, is we don't have any PowerPoint presentations, no marketing speak. We know that marketing people have their own language. We're not using any of that, and no sales pitches, right? So instead, what are we doing? We're going to have expert panels, we've got Simon Richard, of Gartner here. We've got ten different network architects, cloud architects, real practitioners that are going to share their best practices and their real world experiences on their journey to the multi-cloud. So, before we start, everybody know what today is? In the U.S., it's Super Tuesday. I'm not going to get political, but Super Tuesday there was a bigger, Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago. And Aviatrix employees know what I'm talking about. Eighteen months ago, on a Tuesday, every enterprise said, "I'm going to go to the cloud". And so what that was, was the Cambrian explosion, for cloud, for the enterprise. So, Frank Cabri, you know what a Cambrian explosion is. He had to look it up on Google. 500 million years ago, what happened, there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex, multi-cell organisms. Guess what happened 18 months ago, on a Tuesday, I don't really know why, but every enterprise, like I said, all woke up that day and said, "Now I'm really going to go to cloud" and that Cambrian explosion of cloud meant that I'm moving from a very simple, single cloud, single-use case, simple environment, to a very complex, multi-cloud, complex use case environment. And what we're here today, is we're going to go undress that and how do you handle those, those complexities? And, when you look at what's happening, with customers right now, this is a business transformation, right? People like to talk about transitions, this is a transformation and it's actually not just a technology transformation, it's a business transformation. It started from the CEO and the Boards of enterprise customers where they said, "I have an existential threat to the survival of my company." If you look at every industry, who they're worried about is not the other 30-year-old enterprise. What they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud, that's leveraging AI, and that's where they fear that they're going to actually wiped out, right? And so, because of this existential threat, this is CEO led, this is Board led, this is not technology led, it is mandated in the organizations. We are going to digitally transform our enterprise, because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that. And so, IT is now put back in charge. If you think back just a few years ago, in cloud, it was led by DevOps, it was led by the applications and it was, like I said, before the Cambrian explosion, it was very simple. Now, with this Cambrian explosion, an enterprise is getting very serious and mission critical. They care about visibility, they care about control, they care about compliance, conformance, everything, governance. IT is in charge and that's why we're here today to discuss that. So, what we're going to do today, is much of things but we're going to validate this journey with customers. >> Steve: Did they see the same thing? We're going to validate the requirements for multi-cloud because, honestly, I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multicloud. Many are one cloud today but they all say, " I need to architect my network for multiple clouds", because that's just what, the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run in whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that. The second thing is, is architecture. Again, with IT in charge, you, architecture matters. Whether its your career, whether its how you build your house, it doesn't matter. Horrible architecture, your life is horrible forever. Good architecture, your life is pretty good. So, we're going to talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network. If you don't get that right, nothing works, right? Way more important than compute. Way more important than storage. Network is the foundational element of your infrastructure. Then we're going to talk about day two operations. What does that mean? Well day one is one day of your life, where you wire things up they do and beyond. I tell everyone in networking and IT -- it's every day of your life. And if you don't get that right, your life is bad forever. And so things like operations, visibility, security, things like that, how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud, it's actually about how do I operationalize it? And that's a huge benefit that we bring as Aviatrix. And then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have, I always sayyou can't forget about the humans, right? So all this technology, all these things that we're doing, it's always enabled by the humans. At the end of the day, if the humans fight it, it won't get deployed. And we have a massive skills gap, in cloud and we also have a massive skills shortage. You have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects, right? There's just not enough of them going around. So, at Aviatrix, we said as leaders do, "We're going to help address that issue and try to create more people." We created a program, what we call the ACE Program, again, aviation theme, it stands for Aviatrix Certified Engineer. Very similar to what Cisco did with CCIEs where Cisco taught you about IP networking, a little bit of Cisco, we're doing the same thing, we're going to teach network architects about multicloud networking and architecture and yeah, you'll get a little bit of Aviatrix training in there, but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organizations. So we're going to go talk about that. So, great, great event, great show. We're going to try to keep it moving. I next want to introduce, my host, he is the best in the business, you guys have probably seen him multiple, many times, he is the co-CEO and co founder of theCUBE, John Furrier. (audience clapping) (electronic music) >> John: Okay, awesome, great speech there, awesome. >> Yeah. >> I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited, here at the heart of silicon valley to have this event. It's a special digital event with theCUBE and Aviatrix, where we're live-streaming to, millions of people, as you said, maybe not a million. >> Maybe not a million. (laughs) Really to take this program to the world and this is really special for me, because multi-cloud is the hottest wave in cloud. And cloud-native networking is fast becoming the key engine, of the innovations, so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming. We have a customer panel. Two customer panels. Before that Gartner's going to come out, talk about the industry. We have global system integrators, that will talk about, how their advising and building these networks and cloud native networking. And then finally the ACE's, the Aviatrix Certified Engineers, are going to talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed. So, let's jump right in, let's ask, Simon Richard to come on stage, from Gartner. We'll kick it all off. (electronic music) (clapping) >> John: Hi, can I help you. Okay, so kicking things off, getting started. Gartner, the industry experts on cloud. Really kind of more, cue your background. Talk about your background before you got to Gartner? >> Simon: Before being at Gartner, I was a chief network architect, of a Fortune 500 company, that with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything in IT from a C programmer, in the 90, to a security architect, to a network engineer, to finally becoming a network analyst. >> So you rode the wave. Now you're covering the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi-cloud, is really what everyone is talking about. >> Yes. >> Cloud-native's been discussed, but the networking piece is super important. How do you see that evolving? >> Well, the way we see Enterprise adapting, cloud. The first thing you do about networking, the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way. Is usually led by none IT, like a shadow IT, or application people, sometime a DevOps team and it just goes as, it's completely unplanned. They create VPC's left and right with different account and they create mesh to manage them and they have Direct Connect or Express Route to any of them. So that's the first approach and on the other side. again within our first approach you see what I call, the lift and shift. Where we see like enterprise IT trying to, basically replicate what they have in a data center, in the Cloud. So they spend a lot of time planning, doing Direct Connect, putting Cisco routers and F5 and Citrix and any checkpoint, Palo Alto device, that in a sense are removing that to the cloud. >> I got to ask you, the aha moment is going to come up a lot, in one our panels, is where people realize, that it's a multi-cloud world. I mean, they either inherit clouds, certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever. When's that aha moment? That you're seeing, where people go, "Well I got to get my act together and get on this cloud." >> Well the first, right, even before multi-cloud. So there is two approach's. The first one, like the adult way doesn't scare. At some point IT has to save them, 'cause they don't think about the tools, they don't think about operation, they have a bunch of VPC and multiple cloud. The other way, if you do the lift and shift way, they cannot take any advantages of the cloud. They lose elasticity, auto-scaling, pay by the drink. All these agility features. So they both realize, okay, neither of these ways are good, so I have to optimize that. So I have to have a mix of what I call, the cloud native services, within each cloud. So they start adapting, like all the AWS Construct, Azure Construct or Google Construct and that's what I call the optimal phase. But even that they realize, after that, they are all very different, all these approaches different, the cloud are different. Identities is constantly, difficult to manage across clouds. I mean, for example, anybody who access' accounts, there's subscription, in Azure and GCP, their projects. It's a real mess, so they realized, well I don't really like constantly use the cloud product and every cloud, that doesn't work. So I have, I'm going multi-cloud, I like to abstract all of that. I still want to manage the cloud from an EPI point of view, I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products, but I have to do that and in a more EPI driven cloud environment. >> So, the not scaling piece that you where mentioning, that's because there's too many different clouds? >> Yes. >> That's the least they are, so what are they doing? What are they, building different development teams? Is it software? What's the solution? >> Well, the solution is to start architecting the cloud. That's the third phase. I called that the multi-cloud architect phase, where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud. Fact, even across one cloud it might not scale as well, If you start having like ten thousand security agreement, anybody who has that doesn't scale. You have to manage that. If you have multiple VPC, it doesn't scale. You need a third-party, identity provider. In variously scales within one cloud, if you go multiple cloud, it gets worse and worse. >> Steve, weigh in here. What's your thoughts? >> I thought we said this wasn't going to be a sales pitch for Aviatrix. (laughter) You just said exactly what we do, so anyway, that's a joke. What do you see in terms of where people are, in that multi-cloud? So, like lot of people, you know, everyone I talk to, started at one cloud, right, but then they look and then say okay but I'm now going to move to Azure and I'm going to move to... (trails off) Do you see a similar thing? >> Well, yes. They are moving but there's not a lot of application, that uses three cloud at once, they move one app in Azure, one app in AWS and one app in Google. That's what we see so far. >> Okay, yeah, one of the mistakes that people think, is they think multi-cloud. No one is ever going to go multi-cloud, for arbitrage. They're not going to go and say, well, today I might go into Azure, 'cause I get a better rate on my instance. Do you agree? That's never going to happen. What I've seen with enterprise, is I'm going to put the workload in the app, the app decides where it runs best. That may be Azure, maybe Google and for different reasons and they're going to stick there and they're not going to move. >> Let me ask you guys-- >> But the infrastructure, has to be able to support, from a networking team. >> Yes. >> Be able to do that. Do you agree with that? >> Yes, I agree. And one thing is also very important, is connecting to the cloud, is kind of the easiest thing. So, the wide area network part of the cloud, connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple. >> Steve: I agree. >> IP's like VPN, Direct Connect, Express Route. That's the simple part, what's difficult and even the provisioning part is easy. You can use Terraform and create VPC's and Vnet's across your three cloud provider. >> Steve: Right. >> What's difficult is that they choose the operation. So we'll define day two operation. What does that actually mean? >> Its just the day to day operations, after you know, the natural, lets add an app, lets add a server, lets troubleshoot a problem. >> Something changes, now what do you do? >> So what's the big concerns? I want to just get back to the cloud native networking, because everyone kind of knows what cloud native apps are. That's been the hot trend. What is cloud native networking? How do you guys, define that? Because that seems to be the hardest part of the multi-cloud wave that's coming, is cloud native networking. >> Well there's no, you know, official Gartner definition but I can create one on the spot. >> John: Do it. (laughter) >> I just want to leverage the Cloud Construct and the cloud EPI. I don't want to have to install, like a... (trails off) For example, the first version was, let's put a virtual router that doesn't even understand the cloud environment. >> Right. If I have if I have to install a virtual machine, it has to be cloud aware. It has to understand the security group, if it's a router. It has to be programmable, to the cloud API. And understand the cloud environment. >> And one thing I hear a lot from either CSO's, CIO's or CXO's in general, is this idea of, I'm definitely not going API. So, its been an API economy. So API is key on that point, but then they say. Okay, I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers, aka you called it above the clouds. So the question is... What do I do from an architectural standpoint? Do I just hire more developers and have different teams, because you mentioned that's a scale point. How do you solve this problem of, okay, I got AWS, I got GCP, or Azure, or whatever. Do I just have different teams or do I just expose EPI's? Where is that optimization? Where's the focus? >> Well, I think what you need, from a network point of view is a way, a control plane across the three clouds. And be able to use the API's of the cloud, to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do day to day operation. So you need a view across the three clouds, that takes care of routing, connectivity. >> Steve: Performance. >> John: That's the Aviatrix plugin, right there. >> Steve: Yeah. So, how do you see, so again, your Gartner, you see the industry. You've been a network architect. How do you see this this playing out? What are the legacy incumbent client server, On Prem networking people, going to do? >> Well they need to.. >> Versus people like a Aviatrix? How do you see that playing out? >> Well obviously, all the incumbents, like Arista, Cisco, Juniper, NSX. >> Steve: Right. >> They want to basically do the lift and shift part, they want to bring, and you know, VMware want to bring in NSX on the cloud, they call that "NSX everywhere" and Cisco want to bring in ACI to the cloud, they call that "ACI Anywhere". So, everyone's.. (trails off) And then there's CloudVision from Arista, and Contrail is in the cloud. So, they just want to bring the management plane, in the cloud, but it's still based, most of them, is still based on putting a VM in them and controlling them. You extend your management console to the cloud, that's not truly cloud native. >> Right. >> Cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch. >> We like to call that cloud naive. >> Cloud naive, yeah. >> So close, one letter, right? >> Yes. >> That was a big.. (slurs) Reinvent, take the T out of Cloud Native. It's Cloud Naive. (laughter) >> That went super viral, you guys got T-shirts now. I know you're loving that. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But that really, ultimately, is kind of a double-edged sword. You can be naive on the architecture side and ruleing that. And also suppliers or can be naive. So how would you define who's naive and who's not? >> Well, in fact, their evolving as well, so for example, in Cisco, it's a little bit more native than other ones, because there really is, "ACI in the cloud", you can't really figure API's out of the cloud. NSX is going that way and so is Arista, but they're incumbent, they have their own tools, its difficult for them. They're moving slowly, so it's much easier to start from scratch. Even you, like, you know, a network company that started a few years ago. There's only really two, Aviatrix was the first one, they've been there for at least three or four years. >> Steve: Yeah. >> And there's other one's, like Akira, for example that just started. Now they're doing more connectivity, but they want to create an overlay network, across the cloud and start doing policies and things. Abstracting all the clouds within one platform. >> So, I got to ask you. I interviewed an executive at VMware, Sanjay Poonen, he said to me at RSA last week. Oh, there'll only be two networking vendors left, Cisco and VMware. (laughter) >> What's you're response to that? Obviously when you have these waves, these new brands that emerge, like Aviatrix and others. I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork. How do you respond to that comment? >> Well there's still a data center, there's still, like a lot, of action on campus and there's the wan. But from the cloud provisioning and cloud networking in general, I mean, they're behind I think. You know, you don't even need them to start with, you can, if you're small enough, you can just keep.. If you have AWS, you can use the AWS construct, they have to insert themselves, I mean, they're running behind. From my point of view. >> They are, certainly incumbents. I love the term Andy Jess uses at Amazon web services. He uses "Old guard, new guard", to talk about the industry. What does the new guard have to do? The new brands that are emerging. Is it be more DevOp's oriented? Is it NetSec ops? Is it NetOps? Is it programmability? These are some of the key discussions we've been having. What's your view, on how you see this programmability? >> The most important part is, they have to make the network simple for the Dev teams. You cannot make a phone call and get a Vline in two weeks anymore. So if you move to the cloud, you have to make that cloud construct as simple enough, so that for example, a Dev team could say, "Okay, I'm going to create this VPC, but this VPC automatically associates your account, you cannot go out on the internet. You have to go to the transit VPC, so there's lot of action in terms of, the IAM part and you have to put the control around them to. So to make it as simple as possible. >> You guys, both. You're the CEO of Aviatrix, but also you've got a lot of experience, going back to networking, going back to the, I call it the OSI days. For us old folks know what that means, but, you guys know what this means. I want to ask you the question. As you look at the future of networking, you hear a couple objections. "Oh, the cloud guys, they got networking, we're all set with them. How do you respond to the fact that networking's changing and the cloud guys have their own networking. What's some of the paying points that's going on premises of these enterprises? So are they good with the clouds? What needs... What are the key things that's going on in networking, that makes it more than just the cloud networking? What's your take on it? >> Well as I said earlier. Once you could easily provision in the cloud, you can easily connect to the cloud, its when you start troubleshooting applications in the cloud and try to scale. So that's where the problem occurred. >> Okay, what's your take on it. >> And you'll hear from the customers, that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the clouds by definition, designed to the 80-20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality. And then lead to 20% extra functionality, that of course every Enterprise needs, to leave that to ISV's, like Aviatrix. Because why? Because they have to make money, they have a service and they can't have huge instances, for functionality that not everybody needs. So they have to design to the common and that, they all do it, right? They have to and then the extra, the problem is, that Cambrian explosion, that I talked about with enterprises. That's what they need. They're the ones who need that extra 20%. So that's what I see, there's always going to be that extra functionality. In an automated and simple way, that you talked about, but yet powerful. With the up with the visibility and control, that they expect of On Prem. That kind of combination, that Yin and the Yang, that people like us are providing. >> Simon I want to ask you? We're going to ask some of the cloud architect, customer panels, that same question. There's pioneer's doing some work here and there's also the laggards who come in behind their early adopters. What's going to be the tipping point? What are some of these conversations, that the cloud architects are having out there? Or what's the signs, that they need to be on this, multi-cloud or cloud native networking trend? What are some of the signal's that are going on in the environment? What are some of the thresholds? Are things that are going on, that they can pay attention to? >> Well, once they have the application on multiple cloud and they have to get wake up at two in the morning, to troubleshoot them. They'll know it's important. (laughter) So, I think that's when the rubber will hit the road. But, as I said, it's easier to prove, at any case. Okay, it's AWS, it's easy, user transit gateway, put a few VPC's and you're done. And you create some presents like Equinox and do a Direct Connect and Express Route with Azure. That looks simple, its the operations, that's when they'll realize. Okay, now I need to understand! How cloud networking works? I also need a tool, that gives me visibility and control. But not only that, I need to understand the basic underneath it as well. >> What are some of the day in the life scenarios. you envision happening with multi-cloud, because you think about what's happening. It kind of has that same vibe of interoperability, choice, multi-vendor, 'cause they're multi-cloud. Essentially multi-vendor. These are kind of old paradigms, that we've lived through with client server and internet working. What are some of the scenarios of success, that might be possible? Will be possible, with multi-cloud and cloud native networking. >> Well, I think, once you have good enough visibility, to satisfy your customers, not only, like to, keep the service running and application running. But to be able to provision fast enough, I think that's what you want to achieve. >> Simon, final question. Advice for folks watching on the Livestream, if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or CXO. What's your advice to them right now, in this market, 'cause obviously, public cloud check, hybrid cloud, they're working on that. That gets on premises done, now multi-cloud's right behind it. What's your advice? >> The first thing they should do, is really try to understand cloud networking. For each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitations. And, is what the cloud service provider offers enough? Or you need to look to a third party, but you don't look at a third party to start with. Especially an incumbent one, so it's tempting to say "I have a bunch of F5 experts", nothing against F5. I'm going to bring my F5 in the Cloud, when you can use an ELB, that automatically understand eases and auto scaling and so on. And you understand that's much simpler, but sometimes you need your F5, because you have requirements. You have like iRules and that kind of stuff, that you've used for years. 'cause you cannot do it. Okay, I have requirement and that's not met, I'm going to use Legacy Star and then you have to start thinking, okay, what about visibility control, above the true cloud. But before you do that you have to understand the limitations of the existing cloud providers. First, try to be as native as possible, until things don't work, after that you can start thinking of the cloud. >> Great insight, Simon. Thank you. >> That's great. >> With Gartner, thank you for sharing. (electronic music)