>> Presenter: theCUBE presents Ignite '22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Hey guys and girls. Welcome back to theCube's live coverage at Palo Alto Ignite '22. We're live at the MGM Grand Hotel in beautiful Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. This is day one of our coverage. We've been talking with execs from Palo Alto, Partners, but one of our most exciting things is talking with Founders day. We get to do that next. >> The thing is, it's like I wrote this weekend in my breaking analysis. Understanding the problem in cybersecurity is really easy, but figuring out how to fix it ain't so much. >> It definitely isn't. >> So I'm excited to have Nir here. >> Very excited. Nir Zuk joins us, the founder and CTO of Palo Alto Networks. Welcome, Nir. Great to have you on the program. >> Thank you. >> So Palo Alto Networks, you founded it back in 2005. It's hard to believe that's been 18 years, almost. You did something different, which I want to get into. But tell us, what was it back then? Why did you found this company? >> I thought the world needed another cybersecurity company. I thought it's because there were so many cybersecurity vendors in the world, and just didn't make any sense. This industry has evolved in a very weird way, where every time there was a new challenge, rather than existing vendors dealing with a challenge, you had new vendors dealing with it, and I thought I could put a stop to it, and I think I did. >> You did something differently back in 2005, looking at where you are now, the leader, what was different in your mind back then? >> Yeah. When you found a new company, you have really two good options. There's also a bad option, but we'll skip that. You can either disrupt an existing market, or you can create a new market. So first, I decided to disrupt an existing market, go into an existing market first, network security, then cyber security, and change it. Change the way it works. And like I said, the challenges that every problem had a new vendor, and nobody just stepped back and said, "I think I can solve it with the platform." Meaning, I think I can spend some time not solving a specific problem, but building a platform that then can be used to solve many different problems. And that's what I've done, and that's what Palo Alto Networks has done, and that's where we are today. >> So you look back, you call it now, I think you call it a next gen firewall, but nothing in 2005, can it be next gen? Do you know the Silicon Valley Show? Do you know the show Silicon Valley? >> Oh! Yeah. >> Yeah, of course. >> You got to have a box. But it was a different kind of box- >> Actually. >> Explain that. >> Actually, it's exactly the same thing. You got to have a box. So I actually wanted to call it a necessary evil. Marketing wouldn't go for that. >> No. >> And the reason I wanted to call it a necessary evil, because one of the things that we've done in order to platform our cyber security, again, first network security now, also cloud security, and security operations, is to turn it into a SaaS delivered industry. Today every cyber security professional knows that, when they buy cyber security, they buy usually a SaaS delivered service. Back then, people thought I was crazy to think that customers are going to send their data to their vendor in order to process, and they wanted everything on premise and so on, but I said, "No, customers are going to send information to us for processing, because we have much more processing power than they have." And we needed something in the infrastructure to send us the information. So that's why I wanted to call it the necessary evil. We ended up calling it next generation firewall, which was probably a better term. >> Well, even Veritas. Remember Veritas? They had the no hardware agenda. Even they have a box. So it is like you say, you got to have it. >> It's necessary. >> Okay. You did this, you started this on your own cloud, kind of like Salesforce, ServiceNow. >> Correct. >> Similar now- >> Build your own data centers. >> Build your own data center. Okay, I call it a cloud, but no. >> No, it's the same. There's no cloud, it's just someone else's computer. >> According to Larry Ellison, he was actually probably right about that. But over time, you've had this closer partnership with the public clouds. >> Correct. >> What does that bring you and your customers, and how hard was that to navigate? >> It wasn't that hard for us, because we didn't have that many services. Usually it's harder. Of course, we didn't do a lift and shift, which is their own thing to do with the cloud. We rebuild things for the cloud, and the benefits, of course, are time to market, scale, agility, and in some cases also, cost. >> Yeah, some cases. >> In some cases. >> So you have a sort of a hybrid model today. You still run your own data centers, do you not? >> Very few. >> Really? >> There are very, very few things that we have to do on hardware, like simulating malware and things that cannot be done in a virtual machine, which is pretty much the only option you have in the cloud. They provide bare metal, but doesn't serve our needs. I think that we don't view cloud, and your viewers should not be viewing cloud, as a place where they're going to save money. It's a place where they're going to make money. >> I like that. >> You make much more money, because you're more agile. >> And that's why this conversation is all about, your cost of goods sold they're going to be so high, you're going to have to come back to your own data centers. That's not on your mind right now. What's on your mind is advancing the unit, right? >> Look, my own data center would limit me in scale, would limit my agility. If you want to build something new, you don't have all the PaaS services, the platform as a service, services like database, and AI, and so on. I have to build them myself. It takes time. So yeah, it's going to be cheaper, but I'm not going to be delivering the same thing. So my revenues will be much lower. >> Less top line. What can humans do better than machines? You were talking about your keynote... I'm just going to chat a little bit. You were talking about your keynote. Basically, if you guys didn't see the keynote, that AI is going to run every soc within five years, that was a great prediction that you made. >> Correct. >> And they're going to do things that you can't do today, and then in the future, they're going to do things that you can't... Better than you can do. >> And you just have to be comfortable with that. >> So what do you think humans can do today and in the future better than machines? >> Look, humans can always do better than machines. The human mind can do things that machines cannot do. We are conscious, I don't think machines will be conscious. And you can do things... My point was not that machines can do things that humans cannot do. They can just do it better. The things that humans do today, machines can do better, once machines do that, humans will be free to do things that they don't do today, that machines cannot do. >> Like what? >> Like finding the most difficult, most covert attacks, dealing with the most difficult incidents, things that machines just can't do. Just that today, humans are consumed by finding attacks that machines can find, by dealing with incidents that machines can deal with. It's a waste of time. We leave it to the machines and go and focus on the most difficult problems, and then have the machines learn from you, so that next time or a hundred or a thousand times from now, they can do it themselves, and you focus on the even more difficult. >> Yeah, just like after 9/11, they said that we lack the creativity. That's what humans have, that machines don't, at least today. >> Machines don't. Yeah, look, every airplane has two pilots, even though airplanes have been flying themselves for 30 years now, why do you have two pilots, to do the things that machines cannot do? Like land on the Hudson, right? You always need humans to do the things that machines cannot do. But to leave the things that machines can do to the machines, they'll do it better. >> And autonomous vehicles need breaks. (indistinct) >> In your customer conversations, are customers really grappling with that, are they going, "Yeah, you're right?" >> It depends. It's hard for customers to let go of old habits. First, the habit of buying a hundred different solutions from a hundred different vendors, and you know what? Why would I trust one vendor to do everything, put all my eggs in the same basket? They have all kind of slogans as to why not to do that, even though it's been proven again and again that, doing everything in one system with one brain, versus a hundred systems with a hundred brains, work much better. So that's one thing. The second thing is, we always have the same issue that we've had, I think, since the industrial revolution, of what machines are going to take away my job. No, they're just going to make your job better. So I think that some of our customers are also grappling with that, like, "What do I do if the machines take over?" And of course, like we've said, the machines aren't taking over. They're going to do the benign work, you're going to do the interesting work. You should embrace it. >> When I think about your history as a technology pro, from Check Point, a couple of startups, one of the things that always frustrated you, is when when a larger company bought you out, you ended up getting sucked into the bureaucratic vortex. How do you avoid that at Palo Alto Networks? >> So first, you mean when we acquire company? >> Yes. >> The first thing is that, when we acquire companies, we always acquire for integration. Meaning, we don't just buy something and then leave it on the side, and try to sell it here and there. We integrate it into the core of our products. So that's very important, so that the technology lives, thrives and continues to grow as part of our bigger platform. And I think that the second thing that is very important, from past experience what we've learned, is to put the people that we acquire in key positions. Meaning, you don't buy a company and then put the leader of that company five levels below the CEO. You always put them in very senior positions. Almost always, we have the leaders of the companies that we acquire, be two levels below the CEO, so very senior in the company, so they can influence and make changes. >> So two questions related to that. One is, as you grow your team, can you be both integrated? And second part of the question, can you be both integrated and best of breed? Second part of the question is, do you even have to be? >> So I'll answer it in the third way, which is, I don't think you can be best of breed without being integrated in cybersecurity. And the reason is, again, this split brain that I've mentioned twice. When you have different products do a part of cybersecurity and they don't talk to each other, and they don't share a single brain, you always compromise. You start looking for things the wrong way. I can be a little bit technical here, but please. Take the example of, traditionally you would buy an IDS/IPS, separately from your filtering, separately from DNS security. One of the most important things we do in network security is to find combining control connections. Combining control connections where the adversaries controlling something behind your firewall and is now going around your network, is usually the key heel of the attack. That's why attacks like ransomware, that don't have a commanding control connection, are so difficult to deal with, by the way. So commanding control connections are a key seal of the attacks, and there are three different technologies that deal with it. Neural filtering for neural based commanding control, DNS security for DNS based commanding control, and IDS/IPS for general commanding control. If those are three different products, they'll be doing the wrong things. The oral filter will try to find things that it's not really good at, that the IPS really need to find, and the DN... It doesn't work. It works much better when it's one product doing everything. So I think the choice is not between best of breed and integrated. I think the only choice is integrated, because that's the only way to be best of breed. >> And behind that technology is some kind of realtime data store, I'll call it data lake, database. >> Yeah. >> Whatever. >> It's all driven by the same data. All the URLs, all the domain graph. Everything goes to one big data lake. We collect about... I think we collect about, a few petabytes per day. I don't write the exact number of data. It's all going to the same data lake, and all the intelligence is driven by that. >> So you mentioned in a cheeky comment about, why you founded the company, there weren't enough cybersecurity companies. >> Yeah. >> Clearly the term expansion strategy that Palo Alto Networks has done has been very successful. You've been, as you talked about, very focused on integration, not just from the technology perspective, but from the people perspective as well. >> Correct. >> So why are there still so many cybersecurity companies, and what are you thinking Palo Alto Networks can do to change that? >> So first, I think that there are a lot of cybersecurity companies out there, because there's a lot of money going into cybersecurity. If you look at the number of companies that have been really successful, it's a very small percentage of those cybersecurity companies. And also look, we're not going to be responsible for all the innovation in cybersecurity. We need other people to innovate. It's also... Look, always the question is, "Do you buy something or do you build it yourself?" Now we think we're the smartest people in the world. Of course, we can build everything, but it's not always true that we can build everything. Know that we're the smartest people in the world, for sure. You see, when you are a startup, you live and die by the thing that you build. Meaning if it's good, it works. If it's not good, you die. You run out of money, you shut down, and you just lost four years of your life to this, at least. >> At least. >> When you're a large company, yeah, I can go and find a hundred engineers and hire them. And especially nowadays, it becomes easier, as it became easier, and give them money, and have them go and build the same thing that the startup is building, but they're part of a bigger company, and they'll have more coffee breaks, and they'll be less incentive to go and do that, because the company will survive with or without them. So that's why startups can do things much better, sometimes than larger companies. We can do things better than startups, when it comes to being data driven because we have the data, and nobody can compete against the amount of data that we have. So we have a good combination of finding the right startups that have already built something, already proven that it works with some customers, and of course, building a lot of things internally that we cannot do outside. >> I heard you say in one of the, I dunno, dozens of videos I've listened to you talked to. The industry doesn't need or doesn't want another IoT stovepipe. Okay, I agree. So you got on-prem, AWS, Azure, Google, maybe Alibaba, IoT is going to be all over the place. So can you build, I call it the security super cloud, in other words, a consistent experience with the same policies and edicts across all my estates, irrespective of physical location? Is that technically feasible? Is it what you are trying to do? >> Certainly, what we're trying to do with Prisma Cloud, with our cloud security product, it works across all the clouds that you mentioned, and Oracle as well. It's almost entirely possible. >> Almost. >> Almost. Well, the things that... What you do is you normalize the language that the different cloud scale providers use, into one language. This cloud calls it a S3, and so, AWS calls it S3, and (indistinct) calls it GCS, and so on. So you normalize their terminology, and then build policy using a common terminology that your customers have to get used to. Of course, there are things that are different between the different cloud providers that cannot be normalized, and there, it has to be cloud specific. >> In that instance. So is that, in part, your strategy, is to actually build that? >> Of course. >> And does that necessitate running on all the major clouds? >> Of course. It's not just part of our strategy, it's a major part of our strategy. >> Compulsory. >> Look, as a standalone vendor that is not a cloud provider, we have two advantages. The first one is we're security product, security focused. So we can do much better than them when it comes to security. If you are a AWS, GCP, Azure, and so on, you're not going to put your best people on security, you're going to put them on the core business that you have. So we can do much better. Hey, that's interesting. >> Well, that's not how they talk. >> I don't care how they talk. >> Now that's interesting. >> When something is 4% of your business, you're not going to put it... You're not going to put your best people there. It's just, why would you? You put your best people on 96%. >> That's not driving their revenue. >> Look, it's simple. It's not what we- >> With all due respect. With all due respect. >> So I think we do security much better than them, and they become the good enough, and we become the premium. But certainly, the second thing that give us an advantage and the right to be a standalone security provider, is that we're multicloud, private cloud and all the major cloud providers. >> But they also have a different role. I mean, your role is not the security, the Nitro card or the Graviton chip, or is it? >> They are responsible for securing up to the operating system. We secure everything. >> They do a pretty good job of that. >> No, they do, certainly they have to. If they get bridged at that level, it's not just that one customer is going to suffer, the entire customer base. They have to spend a lot of time and money on it, and frankly, that's where they put their best security people. Securing the infrastructure, not building some cloud security feature. >> Absolutely. >> So Palo Alto Networks is, as we wrap here, on track to nearly double its revenues to nearly seven billion in FY '23, just compared to 2020, you were quoted in the press by saying, "We will be the first $100 billion cyber company." What is next for Palo Alto to achieve that? >> Yeah, so it was Nikesh, our CEO and chairman, that was quoted saying that, "We will double to a hundred billion." I don't think he gave it a timeframe, but what it takes is to double the sales, right? We're at 50 billion market cap right now, so we need to double sales. But in reality, you mentioned that we're growing the turn by doing more and more cybersecurity functions, and taking away pieces. Still, we have a relatively small, even though we're the largest cybersecurity vendor in the world, we have a very low market share that shows you how fragmented the market is. I would also like to point out something that is less known. Part of what we do with AI, is really take the part of the cybersecurity industry, which are service oriented, and that's about 50% of the cybersecurity industry services, and turn it into products. I mean, not all of it. But a good portion of what's provided today by people, and tens of billions of dollars are spent on that, can be done with products. And being one of the very, very few vendors that do that, I think we have a huge opportunity at turning those tens of billions of dollars in human services to AI. >> It's always been a good business taking human labor and translating into R and D, vendor R and D. >> Especially- >> It never fails if you do it well. >> Especially in difficult times, difficult economical times like we are probably experiencing right now around the world. We, not we, but we the world. >> Right, right. Well, congratulations. Coming up on the 18th anniversary. Tremendous amount of success. >> Thank you. >> Great vision, clear vision, STEM expansion strategy, really well underway. We are definitely going to continue to keep our eyes. >> Big company, a hundred billion, that's market capital, so that's a big company. You said you didn't want to work for a big company unless you founded it, is that... >> Unless it acts like a small company. >> There's the caveat. We'll keep our eye on that. >> Thank you very much. >> It's such a pleasure having you on. >> Thank you. >> Same here, thank you. >> All right, for our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live emerging and enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, brilliant humans and welcome back to Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are live from the AWS Reinvent Show floor here with the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with Dave Valante, and we have a very exciting conversation with you. Two, two companies you may have heard of. We've got AWS and Red Hat in the house. Manu and Joel, thank you so much for being here. Love this little fist bump. Started off, that's right. Before we even got rolling, Manu, you said that you wanted this to be the best segment of, of the cubes airing. We we're doing over a hundred segments, so you're gonna have to bring the heat. >>We're ready. We're did go. Are we ready? Yeah, go. We're ready. Let's bring it on. >>We're ready. All right. I'm, I'm ready. Dave's ready. Let's do it. How's the show going for you guys real quick before we dig in? >>Yeah, I think after Covid, it's really nice to see that we're back into the 2019 level and, you know, people just want to get out, meet people, have that human touch with each other, and I think a lot of trust gets built as a functional that, so it's super amazing to see our partners and customers here at Reedman. Yeah, >>And you've got a few in the house. That's true. Just a few maybe, maybe a couple >>Very few shows can say that, by the way. Yeah, it's maybe a handful. >>I think one of the things we were saying, it's almost like the entire Silicon Valley descended in the expo hall area, so >>Yeah, it's >>For a few different reasons. There's a few different silicon defined. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't have strong on for you. So far >>It's, it's, it is amazing. It's the 10th year, right? It's decade, I think I've been to five and it's, it grows every single year. It's the, you have to be here. It's as simple as that. And customers from every single industry are here too. You don't get, a lot of shows have every single industry and almost every single location around the globe. So it's, it's a must, must be >>Here. Well, and the personas evolved, right? I was at reinvent number two. That was my first, and it was all developers, not all, but a lot of developers. And today it's a business mix, really is >>Totally, is a business mix. And I just, I've talked about it a little bit down the show, but the diversity on the show floor, it's the first time I've had to wait in line for the ladies' room at a tech conference. Almost a two decade career. It is, yeah. And it was really refreshing. I'm so impressed. So clearly there's a commitment to community, but also a commitment to diversity. Yeah. And, and it's brilliant to see on the show floor. This is a partnership that is robust and has been around for a little while. Money. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the partnership here? >>Yes. So Red Hand and AWS are best friends, you know, forever together. >>Aw, no wonder we got the fist bumps and all the good vibes coming out. I know, it's great. I love that >>We have a decade of working together. I think the relationship in the first phase was around running rail bundled with E two. Sure. We have about 70,000 customers that are running rail, which are running mission critical workloads such as sap, Oracle databases, bespoke applications across the state of verticals. Now, as more and more enterprise customers are finally, you know, endorsing and adopting public cloud, I think that business is just gonna continue to grow. So a, a lot of progress there. The second titration has been around, you know, developers tearing Red Hat and aws, Hey, listen, we wanna, it's getting competitive. We wanna deliver new features faster, quicker, we want scale and we want resilience. So just entire push towards devs containers. So that's the second chapter with, you know, red Hat OpenShift on aws, which launched as a, a joint manage service in 2021 last year. And I think the third phase, which you're super excited about, is just bringing the ease of consumption, one click deployment, and then having our customers, you know, benefit from the joint committed spend programs together. So, you know, making sure that re and Ansible and JBoss, the entire portfolio of Red Hat products are available on AWS marketplace. So that's the 1, 2, 3, it of our relationship. It's a decade of working together and, you know, best friends are super committed to making sure our customers and partners continue successful. >>Yeah, that he said it, he said it perfectly. 2008, I know you don't like that, but we started with Rel on demand just in 2008 before E two even had a console. So the partnership has been there, like Manu says, for a long time, we got the partnership, we got the products up there now, and we just gotta finalize that, go to market and get that gas on the fire. >>Yeah. So Graviton Outpost, local zones, you lead it into all the new stuff. So that portends, I mean, 2008, we're talking two years after the launch of s3. >>That's right. >>Right. So, and now look, so is this a harbinger of things to come with these new innovations? >>Yeah, I, I would say, you know, the innovation is a key tenant of our partnership, our relationship. So if you look at from a product standpoint, red Hat or Rel was one of the first platforms that made a support for graviton, which is basically 40% better price performance than any other distribution. Then that translated into making sure that Rel is available on all of our regions globally. So this year we launched Switzerland, Spain, India, and Red Hat was available on launch there, support for Nitro support for Outpost Rosa support on Outpost as well. So I think that relationship, that innovation on the product side, that's pretty visible. I think that innovation again then translates into what we are doing on marketplace with one click deployments we spoke about. I think the third aspect of the know innovation is around making sure that we are making our partners and our customers successful. So one of the things that we've done so far is Joe leads a, you know, a black belt team that really goes into each customer opportunity, making sure how can we help you be successful. We launched and you know, we should be able to share that on a link. After this, we launched like a big playlist, which talks about every single use case on how do you get successful and running OpenShift on aws. So that innovation on behalf of our customers partners to make them successful, that's been a key tenant for us together as >>Well. That's right. And that team that Manu is talking about, we're gonna, gonna 10 x that team this year going into January. Our fiscal yield starts in January. Love that. So yeah, we're gonna have a lot of no hiring freeze over here. Nope. No ma'am. No. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know what I love about working with aws and, and, and Manu just said it very, all of that's customer driven. Every single event that we, that he just talked about in that timeline, it's customer driven, right? Customers wanted rail on demand, customers want JBoss up in the cloud, Ansible this week, you know, everything's up there now. So it's just getting that go to market tight and we're gonna, we're gonna get that done. >>So what's the algorithm for customer driven in terms of taking the input? Because if every customers saying, Hey, I this a >>Really similar >>Question right up, right? I, that's what I want. And if you know, 95% of the customers say it, Jay, maybe that's a good idea. >>Yeah, that's right. Trends. But >>Yeah. You know, 30% you might be like, mm, you know, 20%, you know, how do you guys decide when to put gas on the fire? >>No, that, I think, as I mentioned, there are about 70,000 large customers that are running rail on Easy Two, many of these customers are informing our product strategy. So we have, you know, close to about couple of thousand power users. We have customer advisory booths, and these are the, you know, customers are informing us, Hey, let's get all of the Red Hat portfolio and marketplace support for graviton, support for Outpost. Why don't we, why are we not able to dip into the consumption committed spend programs for both Red Hat and aws? That's right. So it's these power users both at the developer level as well as the guys who are actually doing large commercial consumption. They are the ones who are informing the roadmap for both Red Hat and aws. >>But do, do you codify the the feedback? >>Yeah, I'm like, I wanna see the database, >>The, I think it was, I don't know, it was maybe Chasy, maybe it was Besos, that that data beats intuition. So do you take that information and somehow, I mean, it's global, 70,000 customers, right? And they have different weights, different spending patterns, different levels of maturity. Yeah. Do you, how do you codify that and then ultimately make the decision? Yeah, I >>If, I mean, well you, you've got the strategic advisory boards, which are made up of customers and partners and you know, you get, you get a good, you gotta get a good slice of your customer base to get, and you gotta take their feedback and you gotta do something with it, right? That's the, that's the way we do it and codify it at the product level, I'm sure open source. That's, that's basically how we work at the product level, right? The most elegant solution in open source wins. And that's, that's pretty much how we do that at the, >>I would just add, I think it's also just the implicit trust that the two companies had built with each other, working in the trenches, making our customers and partners successful over the last decade. And Alex, give an example. So that manifests itself in context of like, you know, Amazon and Red Hat just published the entire roadmap for OpenShift. What are the new features that are becoming over the next six to nine to 12 months? It's open source available on GitHub. Customers can see, and then they can basically come back and give feedback like, Hey, you know, we want hip compliance. We just launched. That was a big request that was coming from our >>Customers. That is not any process >>Also for Graviton or Nvidia instances. So I I I think it's a, >>Here's the thing, the reason I'm pounding on this is because you guys have a pretty high hit rate, and I think as a >>Customer, mildly successful company >>As, as a customer advocate, the better, you know, if, if you guys make bets that pay off, it's gonna pay off for customers. Right. And because there's a lot of failures in it. Yeah. I mean, let's face it. That's >>Right. And I think, I think you said the key word bets. You place a lot of small bets. Do you have the, the innovation engine to do that? AWS is the perfect place to place those small bets. And then you, you know, pour gas on the fire when, when they take off. >>Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, it's not expensive to experiment. Yeah. >>Especially in the managed service world. Right? >>And I know you love taking things to market and you're a go to market guy. Let's talk gtm, what's got your snow pumped about GTM for 2023? >>We, we are gonna, you know, 10 x the teams that's gonna be focused on these products, right? So we're gonna also come out with a hybrid committed spend program for our customers that meet them where they want to go. So they're coming outta the data center going into a cloud. We're gonna have a nice financial model for them to do that. And that's gonna take a lot of the friction out. >>Yeah. I mean, you've nailed it. I, I think the, the fact that now entire Red Hat portfolio is available on marketplace, you can do it on one click deployment. It's deeply integrated with Amazon services and the most important part that Joel was making now customers can double dip. They can drive benefit from the consumption committed spend programs, both from Red Hat and from aws, which is amazing. Which is a game changer That's right. For many of our large >>Customers. That's right. And that, so we're gonna, we're gonna really go to town on that next year. That's, and all the, all the resources that I have, which are the technology sellers and the sas, you know, the engineers we're growing this team the most out that team. So it's, >>When you say 10 x, how many are you at now? I'm >>Curious to see where you're headed. Tell you, okay. There's not right? Oh no, there's not one. It's triple digit. Yeah, yeah. >>Today. Oh, sweet. Awesome. >>So, and it's a very sizable team. They're actually making sure that each of our customers are successful and then really making sure that, you know, no customer left behind policy. >>And it's a great point that customers love when Amazonians and Red Hats show up, they love it and it's, they want to get more of it, and we're gonna, we're gonna give it to 'em. >>Must feel great to be loved like that. >>Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I would say yes. >>Seems like it's safe to say that there's another decade of partnership between your two companies. >>Hope so. That's right. That's the plan. >>Yeah. And I would say also, you know, just the IBM coming into the mix here. Yeah. I, you know, red Hat has informed the way we have turned around our partnership with ibm, essentially we, we signed the strategic collaboration agreement with the company. All of IBM software now runs on Rosa. So that is now also providing a lot of tailwinds both to our rail customers and as well as Rosa customers. And I think it's a very net creative, very positive for our partnership. >>That's right. It's been very positive. Yep. Yeah. >>You see the >>Billboards positive. Yeah, right. Also that, that's great. Great point, Dave. Yep. We have a, we have a new challenge, a new tradition on the cube here at Reinvent where we're, well, it's actually kind of a glamor moment for you, depending on how you leverage it. We're looking for your 32nd hot take your Instagram reel, your sizzle thought leadership, biggest takeaway, most important theme from this year's show. I know you want, right, Joel? I mean, you TM boy, I feel like you can spit the time. >>Yeah. It is all about Rosa for us. It is all in on that, that's the native OpenShift offering on aws and that's, that's the soundbite we're going go to town with. Now, I don't wanna forget all the other products that are in there, but Rosa is a, is a very key push for us this year. >>Fantastic. All right. Manu. >>I think our customers, it's getting super competitive. Our customers want to innovate just a >>Little bit. >>The enterprise customers see the cloud native companies. I wanna do what these guys are doing. I wanna develop features at a fast clip. I wanna scale, I wanna be resilient. And I think that's really the spirit that's coming out. So to Joel's point, you know, move to worlds containers, serverless, DevOps, which was like, you know, aha, something that's happening on the side of an enterprise is not becoming mainstream. The business is demanding it. The, it is becoming the centerpiece in the business strategy. So that's been really like the aha. Big thing that's happening here. >>Yeah. And those architectures are coming together, aren't they? That's correct. Right. You know, VMs and containers, it used to be one architecture and then at the other end of the spectrum is serverless. People thought of those as different things and now it's a single architecture and, and it's kind of right approach for the right job. >>And, and a compliments say to Red Hat, they do an incredible job of hiding that complexity. Yeah. Yes. And making sure that, you know, for example, just like, make it easier for the developers to create value and then, and you know, >>Yeah, that's right. Those, they were previously siloed architectures and >>That's right. OpenShift wanna be place where you wanna run containers or virtual machines. We want that to be this Yeah. Single place. Not, not go bolt on another piece of architecture to just do one or the other. Yeah. >>And hey, the hybrid cloud vision is working for ibm. No question. You know, and it's achievable. Yeah. I mean, I just, I've said unlike, you know, some of the previous, you know, visions on fixing the world with ai, hybrid cloud is actually a real problem that you're attacking and it's showing the results. Agreed. Oh yeah. >>Great. Alright. Last question for you guys. Cause it might be kind of fun, 10 years from now, oh, we're at another, we're sitting here, we all look the same. Time has passed, but we are not aging, which is a part of the new technology that's come out in skincare. That's my, I'm just throwing that out there. Why not? What do you guys hope that you can say about the partnership and, and your continued commitment to community? >>Oh, that's a good question. You go first this time. Yeah. >>I think, you know, the, you know, for looking into the future, you need to look into the past. And Amazon has always been driven by working back from our customers. That's like our key tenant, principle number 1 0 1. >>Couple people have said that on this stage this week. Yeah. >>Yeah. And I think our partnership, I hope over the next decade continues to keep that tenant as a centerpiece. And then whatever comes out of that, I think we, we are gonna be, you know, working through that. >>Yeah. I, I would say this, I think you said that, well, the customer innovation is gonna lead us to wherever that is. And it's, it's, it's gonna be in the cloud for sure. I think we can say that in 10 years. But yeah, anything from, from AI to the quant quantum computing that IBM's really pushing behind that, you know, those are, those are gonna be things that hopefully we show up on a, on a partnership with Manu in 10 years, maybe sooner. >>Well, whatever happens next, we'll certainly be covering it here on the cube. That's right. Thank you both for being here. Joel Manu, fantastic interview. Thanks to see you guys. Yeah, good to see you brought the energy. I think you're definitely ranking high on the top interviews. We >>Love that for >>The day. >>Thank >>My pleasure >>Job, guys. Now that you're competitive at all, and thank you all for tuning in to our live coverage here from AWS Reinvent in Las Vegas, Nevada, with Dave Valante. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching The Cube, the leading source for high tech coverage.

>>Good evening, brilliant humans. My name is Savannah Peterson and very delighted to be streaming to you. Live from the Cube Studios here in Motor City, Michigan. I've got John Furrier on my left. John, this is our last interview of the day. Energy just seems to keep oozing. How >>You doing? Take two, Three days of coverage, the queue love segments. This one's great cuz we have a practitioner who's implementing all the hard core talks to be awesome. Can't wait to get into it. >>Yeah, I'm very excited for this one. If it's not very clear, we are a community focused community is a huge theme here at the show at Cape Con. And our next guests are actually a provider and a customer. Turning it over to you. Lisa and Jake, welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having us. >>It's great to be here. It is our pleasure. Lisa, you're with Cockroach. Just in case the audience isn't familiar, give us a quick little sound bite. >>We're a distributed sequel database. Highly scalable, reliable. The database you can't kill, right? We will survive the apocalypse. So very resilient. Our customers, mostly retail, FinTech game meet online gambling. They, they, they need that resiliency, they need that scalability. So the indestructible database is the elevator pitch >>And the success has been very well documented. Valuation obviously is a scorp guard, but huge customers. We were at the Escape 19. Just for the record, the first ever multi-cloud conference hasn't come back baby. Love it. It'll come back soon. >>Yeah, well we did a similar version of it just a month ago and I was, that was before Cockroach. I was a different company there talking a lot about multi-cloud. So, but I'm, I've been a car a couple of years now and I run community, I run developer relations. I'm still also a CNCF ambassador, so I lead community as well. I still run a really large user group in the San Francisco Bay area. So we've just >>Been in >>Community, take through the use case. Jake's story set us up. >>Well I would like Jake to take him through the use case and Cockroach is a part of it, but what they've built is amazing. And also Jake's history is amazing. So you can start Jake, >>Wherever you take >>Your Yeah, sure. I'm Jake, I'm CEO and co-founder of Offset. Oted is the commercial entity behind Spice Dvy and Spice Dvy is a permission service. Cool. So a permission service is something that lets developers and let's platform teams really unlock the full potential of their applications. So a lot of people get stuck on My R back isn't flexible enough. How do I do these fine grain things? How do I do these complex sharing workflows that my product manager thinks is so important? And so our service enables those platform teams and developers to do those kinds of things. >>What's your, what's your infrastructure? What's your setup look like? What, how are you guys looking like on the back end? >>Sure. Yeah. So we're obviously built on top of Kubernetes as well. One of the reasons that we're here. So we use Kubernetes, we use Kubernetes operators to orchestrate everything. And then we use, use Cockroach TV as our production data store, our production backend data store. >>So I'm curious, cause I love when these little matchmakers come together. You said you've now been presenting on a little bit of a road show, which is very exciting. Lisa, how are you and the team surfacing stories like Jakes, >>Well, I mean any, any place we can obviously all the social medias, all the blogs, How >>Are you finding it though? >>How, how did you Oh, like from our customers? Yeah, we have an open source version so people start to use us a long time before we even sometimes know about them. And then they'll come to us and they'll be like, I love Cockroach, and like, tell me about it. Like, tell me what you build and if it's interesting, you know, we'll we'll try to give it some light. And it's always interesting to me what people do with it because it's an interesting technology. I like what they've done with it. I mean the, the fact that it's globally distributed, right? That was like a really important thing to you. Totally. >>Yeah. We're also long term fans of Cockroach, so we actually all work together out of Workbench, which was a co-working space and investor in New York City. So yeah, we go way back. We knew the founders. I, I'm constantly saying like if I could have invested early in cockroach, that would've been the easiest check I could have ever signed. >>Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've been following that too and you guys are now using them, but folks that are out there looking to have the, the same challenges, what are the big challenges on selecting the database? I mean, as you know, the history of Cockroach and you're originating the story, folks out there might not know and they're also gonna choose a database. What's the, what's the big challenge that they can solve that that kind of comes together? What, what would you describe that? >>Sure. So we're, as I said, we're a permission service and per the data that you store in a permission service is incredibly sensitive. You need it to be around, right? You need it to be available. If the permission service goes down, almost everything else goes down because it's all calling into the permission service. Is this user allowed to do this? Are they allowed to do that? And if we can't answer those questions, then our customer is down, right? So when we're looking at a database, we're looking for reliability, we're looking for durability, disaster recovery, and then permission services are one of the only services that you usually don't shard geographically. So if you look at like AWS's iam, that's a global service, even though the individual things that they run are actually sharded by region. So we also needed a globally distributed database with all of those other properties. So that's what led us >>To, this is a huge topic. So man, we've been talking about all week the cloud is essentially distributed database at this point and it's distributed system. So distributed database is a hot topic, totally not really well reported. A lot of people talking about it, but how would you describe this distributed trend that's going on? What are the key reasons that they're driving it? What's making this more important than ever in your mind, in your opinion? >>I mean, for our use case, it was just a hard requirement, right? We had to be able to have this global service. But I think just for general use cases, a distributed database, distributed database has that like shared nothing architecture that allows you to kind of keep it running and horizontally scale it. And as your requirements and as your applications needs change, you can just keep adding on capacity and keep adding on reliability and availability. >>I'd love to get both of your opinion. You've been talking about the, the, the, the phases of customers, the advanced got Kubernetes going crazy distributed, super alpha geek. Then you got the, the people who are building now, then you got the lagers who are coming online. Where do you guys see the market now in terms of, I know the Alphas are all building all the great stuff and you guys had great success with all the top logos and they're all doing hardcore stuff. As the mainstream enterprise comes in, where's their psychology, what's on their mind? What's, you share any insight into your perspective on that? Because we're seeing a lot more of it folks becoming like real cloud players. >>Yeah, I feel like in mainstream enterprise hasn't been lagging as much as people think. You know, certainly there's been pockets in big enterprises that have been looking at this and as distributed sequel, it gives you that scalability that it's absolutely essential for big enterprises. But also it gives you the, the multi-region, you know, the, you have to be globally distributed. And for us, for enterprises, you know, you need your data near where the users are. I know this is hugely important to you as well. So you have to be able to have a multi-region functionality and that's one thing that distributed SQL lets you build and that what we built into our product. And I know that's one of the things you like too. >>Yeah, well we're a brand new product. I mean we only founded the company two years ago, but we're actually getting inbound interest from big enterprises because we solve the kinds of challenges that they have and whether, I mean, most of them already do have a cockroach footprint, but whether they did or didn't, once they need to bring in our product, they're going to be adopting cockroach transitively anyway. >>So, So you're built on top of Cockroach, right? And Spice dv, is that open source or? >>It >>Is, yep. Okay. And explain the role of open source and your business model. Can you take a minute to talk about the relevance of that? >>Yeah, open source is key. My background is, before this I was at Red Hat. Before that we were at CoreOS, so CoreOS acquisition and before that, >>One of the best acquisitions that ever happened for the value. That was a great, great team. Yeah, >>We, we, we had fun and before that we built Qua. So my co-founders and I, we built Quay, which is a, a first private docker registry. So CoreOS and, and all of those things are all open source or deeply open source. So it's just in our dna. We also see it as part of our go-to market motion. So if you are a database, a lot of people won't even consider what you're doing without being open source. Cuz they say, I don't want to take a, I don't want to, I don't want to end up in an Oracle situation >>Again. Yeah, Oracle meaning they go, you get you locked in, get you in a headlock, Increase prices. >>Yeah. Oh yeah, >>Can, can >>I got triggered. >>You need to talk about your PTSD there >>Or what. >>I mean we have 20,000 stars on GitHub because we've been open and transparent from the beginning. >>Yeah. And it >>Well, and both of your projects were started based on Google Papers, >>Right? >>That is true. Yep. And that's actually, so we're based off of the Google Zans of our paper. And as you know, Cockroach is based off of the Google Span paper and in the the Zanzibar paper, they have this globally distributed database that they're built on top of. And so when I said we're gonna go and we're gonna make a company around the Zabar paper, people would go, Well, what are you gonna do for Span? And I was like, Easy cockroach, they've got us covered. >>Yeah, I know the guys and my friends. Yeah. So the question is why didn't you get into the first round of Cockroach? She said don't answer that. >>The question he did answer though was one of those age old arguments in our community about pronunciation. We used to argue about Quay, I always called it Key of course. And the co-founder obviously knows how it's pronounced, you know, it's the et cd argument, it's the co cuddl versus the control versus coo, CTL Quay from the co-founder. That is end of argument. You heard it here first >>And we're keeping it going with Osted. So awesome. A lot of people will say Zeed or, you know, so we, we just like to have a little ambiguity >>In the, you gotta have some semantic arguments, arm wrestling here. I mean, it keeps, it keeps everyone entertained, especially on the over the weekend. What's, what's next? You got obviously Kubernetes in there. Can you explain the relationship between Kubernetes, how you're handling Spice dv? What, what does the Kubernetes piece fit in and where, where is that going to be going? >>Yeah, great question. Our flagship product right now is a dedicated, and in a dedicated, what we're doing is we're spinning up a single tenant Kubernetes cluster. We're installing all of our operator suite, and then we're installing the application and running it in a single tenant fashion for our customers in the same region, in the same data center where they're running their applications to minimize latency. Because of this, as an authorization service, latency gets passed on directly to the end user. So everybody's trying to squeeze the latency down as far as they can. And our strategy is to just run these single tenant stacks for people with the minimal latency that we can and give them a VPC dedicated link very similar to what Cockroach does in their dedicated >>Product. And the distributed architecture makes that possible because it's lighter way, it's not as heavy. Is that one of the reasons? >>Yep. And Kubernetes really gives us sort of like a, a level playing field where we can say, we're going going to take the provider, the cloud providers Kubernetes offering, normalize it, lay down our operators, and then use that as the base for delivering >>Our application. You know, Jake, you made me think of something I wanted to bring up with other guests, but now since you're here, you're an expert, I wanna bring that up, but talk about Super Cloud. We, we coined that term, but it's kind of multi-cloud, is that having workloads on multiple clouds is hard. I mean there are, they are, there are workloads on, on clouds, but the complexity of one clouds, let's take aws, they got availability zones, they got regions, you got now data issues in each one being global, not that easy on one cloud, nevermind all clouds. Can you share your thoughts on how you see that progression? Because when you start getting, as its distributed database, a lot of good things might come up that could fit into solving the complexity of global workloads. Could you share your thoughts on or scoping that problem space of, of geography? Yeah, because you mentioned latency, like that's huge. What are some of the other challenges that other people have with mobile? >>Yeah, absolutely. When you have a service like ours where the data is small, but very critical, you can get a vendor like Cockroach to step in and to fill that gap and to give you that globally distributed database that you can call into and retrieve the data. I think the trickier issues come up when you have larger data, you have huge binary blobs. So back when we were doing Quay, we wanted to be a global service as well, but we had, you know, terabytes, petabytes of data that we were like, how do we get this replicated everywhere and not go broke? Yeah. So I think those are kind of the interesting issues moving forward is what do you do with like those huge data lakes, the huge amount of data, but for the, the smaller bits, like the things that we can keep in a relational database. Yeah, we're, we're happy that that's quickly becoming a solved >>Problem. And by the way, that that data problem also is compounded when the architecture goes to the edge. >>Totally. >>I mean this is a big issue. >>Exactly. Yeah. Edge is something that we're thinking a lot about too. Yeah, we're lucky that right now the applications that are consuming us are in a data center already. But as they start to move to the edge, we're going to have to move to the edge with them. And it's a story that we're gonna have to figure out. >>All right, so you're a customer cockroach, what's the testimonial if I put you on the spot, say, hey, what's it like working with these guys? You know, what, what's the, what's the, you know, the founders, so you know, you give a good description, little biased, but we'll, we'll we'll hold you on it. >>Yeah. Working with Cockroach has been great. We've had a couple things that we've run into along the way and we've gotten great support from our account managers. They've brought in the right technical expertise when we need it. Cuz what we're doing with Cockroach is not you, you couldn't do it on Postgres, right? So it's not just a simple rip and replace for us, we're using all of the features of Cockroach, right? We're doing as of system time queries, we're doing global replication. We're, you know, we're, we're consuming it all. And so we do need help from them sometimes and they've been great. Yeah. >>And that's natural as they grow their service. I mean the world's changing. >>Well I think one of the important points that you mentioned with multi-cloud, we want you to have the choice. You know, you can run it in in clouds, you can run it hybrid, you can run it OnPrem, you can do whatever you want and it's just, it's one application that you can run in these different data centers. And so really it's up to you how do you want to build your infrastructure? >>And one of the things we've been talking about, the super cloud concept that we've been issue getting a lot of contrary, but, but people are leaning into it is that it's the refactoring and taking advantage of the services. Like what you mentioned about cockroach. People are doing that now on cloud going the lift and shift market kind of had it time now it's like hey, I can start taking advantage of these higher level services or capability of someone else's stack and refactoring it. So I think that's a dynamic that I'm seeing a lot more of. And it sounds like it's working out great in this situation. >>I just came from a talk and I asked them, you know, what don't you wanna put in the cloud and what don't you wanna run in Kubernetes or on containers and good Yeah. And the customers that I was on stage with, one of the guys made a joke and he said I would put my dog in a container room. I could, he was like in the category, which is his right, which he is in the category of like, I'll put everything in containers and these are, you know, including like mis critical apps, heritage apps, since they don't wanna see legacy anymore. Heritage apps, these are huge enterprises and they wanna put everything in the cloud. Everything >>You so want your dog that gets stuck on the airplane when it's on the tarmac. >>Oh >>God, that's, she was the, don't take that analogy. Literally don't think about that. Well that's, >>That's let's not containerize. >>There's always supply chain concern. >>It. So I mean going macro and especially given where we are cncf, it's all about open source. Do y'all think that open source builds a better future? >>Yeah and a better past. I mean this is, so much of this software is founded on open source. I, we wouldn't be here really. I've been in open source community for many, many years so I wouldn't say I'm biased. I would say this is how we build software. I came from like in a high school we're all like, oh let's build a really cool application. Oh you know what? I built this cuz I needed it, but maybe somebody else needs it too. And you put it out there and that is the ethos of Silicon Valley, right? That's where we grew up. So I've always had that mindset, you know, and social coding and why I have three people, right? Working on the same thing when one person you could share it's so inefficient. All of that. Yeah. So I think it's great that people work on what they're really good at. You know, we all, now you need some standardization, you need some kind of control around this whole thing. Sometimes some foundations to, you know, herd the cats. Yeah. But it's, it's great. Which is why I'm a c CF ambassador and I spend a lot of time, you know, in my free time talking about open source. Yeah, yeah. >>It's clear how passionate you are about it. Jake, >>This is my second company that we founded now and I don't think either of them could have existed without the base of open source, right? Like when you look at I have this cool idea for an app or a company and I want to go try it out, the last thing I want to do is go and negotiate with a vendor to get like the core data component. Yeah. To even be able to get to the >>Prototypes. NK too, by the way. Yeah. >>Hey >>Nk >>Or hire, you know, a bunch of PhDs to go and build that core component for me. So yeah, I mean nobody can argue that >>It truly is, I gotta say a best time if you're a developer right now, it's awesome to be a developer right now. It's only gonna get better. As we were riff from the last session about productivity, we believe that if you follow the digital transformation to its conclusion, developers and it aren't a department serving the business, they are the business. And that means they're running the show, which means that now their entire workflow is gonna change. It's gonna be have to be leveraging services partnering. So yeah, open source just fills that. So the more code coming up, it's just no doubt in our mind that that's go, that's happening and will accelerate. So yeah, >>You know, no one company is gonna be able to compete with a community. 50,000 users contributing versus you riding it yourself in your garage with >>Your dogs. Well it's people driven too. It's humans not container. It's humans working together. And here you'll see, I won't say horse training, that's a bad term, but like as projects start to get traction, hey, why don't we come together as, as the world starts to settle and the projects have traction, you start to see visibility into use cases, functionality. Some projects might not be, they have to kind of see more kind >>Of, not every feature is gonna be development. Oh. So I mean, you know, this is why you connect with truly brilliant people who can architect and distribute sequel database. Like who thought of that? It's amazing. It's as, as our friend >>You say, Well let me ask you a question before we wrap up, both by time, what is the secret of Kubernetes success? What made Kubernetes specifically successful? Was it timing? Was it the, the unambitious nature of it, the unification of it? Was it, what was the reason why is Kubernetes successful, right? And why nothing else? >>Well, you know what I'm gonna say? So I'm gonna let Dave >>First don't Jake, you go first. >>Oh boy. If we look at what was happening when Kubernetes first came out, it was, Mesosphere was kind of like the, the big player in the space. I think Kubernetes really, it had the backing from the right companies. It had the, you know, it had the credibility, it was sort of loosely based on Borg, but with the story of like, we've fixed everything that was broken in Borg. Yeah. And it's better now. Yeah. So I think it was just kind and, and obviously people were looking for a solution to this problem as they were going through their containerization journey. And I, yeah, I think it was just right >>Place, the timing consensus of hey, if we just let this happen, something good might come together for everybody. That's the way I felt. I >>Think it was right place, right time, right solution. And then it just kind of exploded when we were at Cores. Alex Povi, our ceo, he heard about Kubernetes and he was like, you know, we, we had a thing called Fleet D or we had a tool called Fleet. And he's like, Nope, we're all in on Kubernetes now. And that was an amazing Yeah, >>I remember that interview. >>I, amazing decision. >>Yeah, >>It's clear we can feel the shift. It's something that's come up a lot this week is is the commitment. Everybody's all in. People are ready for their transformation and Kubernetes is definitely gonna be the orchestrator that we're >>Leveraging. Yeah. And it's an amazing community. But it was, we got lucky that the, the foundational technology, I mean, you know, coming out of Google based on Go conferences, based on Go, it's no to coincidence that this sort of nature of, you know, pods horizontally, scalable, it's all fits together. I does make sense. Yeah. I mean, no offense to Python and some of the other technologies that were built in other languages, but Go is an awesome language. It's so, so innovative. Innovative things you could do with it. >>Awesome. Oh definitely. Jake, I'm very curious since we learned on the way and you are a Detroit native? >>I am. Yep. I grew up in the in Warren, which is just a suburb right outside of Detroit. >>So what does it mean to you as a Michigan born bloke to be here, see your entire community invade? >>It is, I grew up coming to the Detroit Auto Show in this very room >>That brought me to Detroit the first time. Love n a I a s. Been there with our friends at Ford just behind us. >>And it's just so interesting to me to see the accumulation, the accumulation of tech coming to Detroit cuz it's really not something that historically has been a huge presence. And I just love it. I love to see the activity out on the streets. I love to see all the restaurants and coffee shops full of people. Just, I might tear up. >>Well, I was wondering if it would give you a little bit of that hometown pride and also the joy of bringing your community together. I mean, this is merging your two probably most core communities. Yeah, >>Yeah. Your >>Youth and your, and your career. It doesn't get more personal than that really. Right. >>It's just been, it's been really exciting to see the energy. >>Well thanks for going on the queue. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. Thanks >>For having us. Yeah, thank you both so much. Lisa, you were a joy of ball of energy right when you walked up. Jake, what a compelling story. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. John, thanks for the banter and the fabulous questions. I'm >>Glad I could help out. >>Yeah, you do. A lot more than help out sweetheart. And to all of you watching the Cube today, thank you so much for joining us live from Detroit, the Cube Studios. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our event wrap up next.

>>We're seeing green here at Vemo in 2022, you're watching the cube, Dave ante and David Nicholson wrapping up our second day of coverage. Dave, good show. Good to be, you know, again, good to be back. This is our third show in a row. We're a Cuban as well. So the cube is, is out there, but same every, every show we go to so far has been most of the people here haven't been out in two plus years. Yeah. Right. And, and, and they're like, Hey, let's go. Let's hug. Let's shake. I got my red band on cuz we've been on a lot of shows or just being careful <laugh> um, you know, Hey, but it's great to see people back, uh, >>Absolutely >>Such a different vibe than virtual virtual sucks. Everybody hates it now, but now it's going hybrid. People are trying to figure that out. Yeah. Uh, but it's, it's in your view, what's different. What's the same >>In terms of, uh, in person versus hybrid kind of what's happened since what's >>Different being here now versus say 2019, not that you were here in 2019, but a show in 2019. >>I, I think there's right now, there's a certain sense of, uh, of appreciation for the ability to come and do this. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, >>As opposed to on we or oh, another show, right? >>Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, a personal opinion is that, um, I think that the hybrid model moving forward is going to end up being additive. I don't know that I don't, you know, people say we'll never go back to having in person the way we did before. Um, I'm holding out hope that that's not the case because I, I think so there's so much value to the kinds of conversations that we have, not only here on the set with folks in person, but just the hallway conversations, uh, the dinner conversations, um, those are so critical, uh, not only with between vendors and customers, but between different business units. Um, you know, I, I, I came into this thinking, you know, I know Veeam very well. I've known them since the beginning. Um, but you think I'm going to a conference to talk about backup software and it wasn't like that at all. I mean, this is, this is an overarching, very, very interesting subject to cover. So how is it different? I think people are appreciative. I wouldn't say we're backed full throttle a hundred percent, um, uh, back in the game yet. But, uh, but we we're getting there. Some >>Of the highlights Veeam now, number one, statistical tie for first place in revenue. There aren't a lot of segments, especially in storage where Dell is not number one, I guess technically Dell is like, I don't know, half a percentage point ahead, but Veeam's gonna blow by that. Unless Dell gets its data, >>Protect me as the luxury of focus, they can focus >>Like a laser on it focus. Right? That, that we, we saw this in the P PC where focused, we saw Dell's ascendancy cuz they were focused on PCs, right? Yeah. We saw Seagate on dis drives Intel and microprocesors Oracle on databases and, and, and Veeam applied that model to what they call modern data protection. Um, and, and the, so the reason why we think they're gonna go past is they growing at 20 plus percent each year. And, and I can almost guarantee Dell's data protection business isn't although it's been in a, I, I sense a downward slope lately, they don't divulge that data. Um, but if they were growing nicely, they would be talking about it. So I think they've been kind of hiding that ball, but Dell, you know, you can't count those guys out they're baby. >>No, you can't. And there's always >>A, they don't like to lose. They get that EMC DNA still in >>There. Yeah. You take, you can, you might take your eye off the ball for a little while to focus on other things. But uh, I think it'll be healthy for the industry at large, as Veeam continues to take market share. There's definitely gonna be pushback from, from others in the field, but >>The pure software play. Um, and you know that no hardware agenda thing and all that I think is, is clearly in Veeam's favor. Uh, but we'll see. I mean, Dell's got other, other strengths as do others. I mean, this is, this is, let's not forget this, this, this market is crowded and getting kind. I mean, you got, you got other players, new, new entrants, like cohesive in Rubrik Rubic, by the way is the one I was kind of referring to. That seems to be, you go to their LinkedIn, they seem to be pivoting to security. I was shocked when I saw that. I'm like, wow, is that just like a desperation move? Is that a way to get your valuation up? Is that, is there something I'm missing? I, I don't know. I haven't talked to those guys in a little bit, need to get, get there, but cause he and Rubrik couldn't get to IPO prior to, uh, you know, the, the, the, the, the tech sell off the tech lash. >>If you will Veeam, didn't need toves. We have 30% EBITDA and, and has had it for a while. So they've been, they caught lightning in a bottle years ago, and then now they got the inside capital behind them. Um, you got new entrance, like, like Kuo, you got com. Vault is out there. You still got, you know, Veritas is still out there competing and you know, a number of other, you get you got is wherever HP software landed in, in the MicroStrategy, uh, micro strategy. <laugh> um, no not micro strategy anyway, in that portfolio of companies that HP sold its software business to, you know, they're still out there. So, you know, a lot of ways to, to buy backup and recovery software, but these guys being the leader is no surprise. >>Yeah. You know, it's, I, I, I have to say it to me. It's a classic story of discipline >>Microfocus, sorry, >>Microfocus. Yeah, that's right. That's right. You know, it's funny. I, I, I could see that logo on a, I know I've got a notebook at home. Um, but, but theme is a classic example of well disciplined growth where you're not playing the latest buzzword game and trying to create adjacent businesses that are really, that might sound sexy, but have nothing to do with your core. They've been very, very disciplined about their approach, starting with, you know, looking at VMFS and saying, this is what we're gonna do, and then branching out from there in a logical way. So, so they're not out ahead of the tips of their skis in a way that some others have have gotten. And those, you know, sometimes swinging for the fence is great, but you can strike out that way also. And they've been hitting, you know, you could say they've been hitting singles and doubles just over and over and over again for years now. Well, that's been a great strategy. >>You've seen this a lot. I mean, I, I think you watched this at EMC when you were there as you, it was acquisitions to try to keep the growth up. It was, it was great marketing. I mean, unbelievable marketing cloud meets big data. Oh yeah. And you'd hear on CNBC. AMC is the cloud company. You're like, eh, fucking have a cloud. So, so you, you you've seen companies do that to your point about getting ahead of your skis. VMs never done that EMS like, eh, this is the product that works great. Yeah. Customers love it. They buy it, you know, we got the distribution channel set up and so that's always been, been, been part of their DNA. Um, and I think the other piece is putting meat on the bone of the tagline of modern data protection. When I first heard that I'm like, mm, okay. >>But then when you peel the onion on that, the core is back up in recovery, a lot of focus on recovery. And then the way they, I remember it was there in the audience when they announced, you know, support for bare metal, people went crazy. I'm like, wow, okay. They cuz they used to say, oh, never virtualization forever. Okay. So they beat that drum and you never say never in this business, do you, and then moving on to cloud and hybrid and containers and we're hearing about super cloud now, and maybe there'll be an edge use case there it's still unclear what that pattern is. You've talked about that with Zs, but it's not clear to me where you put your muscle yet in, um, in edge, but really being able to manage all that data that is people talk about data management that starts to be data management. And they've got a footprint that enables 'em to do that. >>Yeah. And, and I'd like to see that same discipline approach. That's gotten them here to continue no need to get on board a hype cycle. Um, what I really love from a business execution perspective from Veeam is the fact that they know their place in terms of the, their strategic advisory role for end user customers and their places largely in partnership with folks in the channel partners, large and small, um, in a couple of the conversations we had over the last few days, we talked about this idea that there are fewer and fewer seats at the table. Uh, working with customers, customers can't have 25 strategic vendor partners and a lot of smaller niche players that focus on something even as important as backup will pretend that they are, that they hold the same sort of strategic weight as a hyperscale cloud provider. Does they pretend that they're gonna be there in the CX O meetings? Um, when they're not Veeam knows exactly how to best leverage what they do with customers and that's through partners in the channel. >>The other thing is, um, new CEO, a non Eron, uh, the fifth CEO, I think I'm correct. Is that right at, at VE yes. Um, so two founders, uh, and then when Peter McKay came on, he was co CEO. Um, and then, um, yep. And let's see, I think yep. You the fifth. Okay. So each of the CEOs kind of had their own mark. Right. Um, and we asked an on in the analyst thing, what do you want your legacy to be? And I, I loved his answer. He's like, this is a fragmented business with a lot of adjacencies and we are the leader in revenue, but we only have 12% revenue share. I want to take that to 25%, 40%. That's like EMC at 30 plus percent of the storage market, Cisco of 60% of the networking market. Wow. If anybody could ever get there, but so 25 to 30% of a market that's that's big. Yeah. I liked his demeanor thought he had a really good style philosophy. Well-spoken well spoken. So new leadership, obviously insight brought him in to take them to the next level. Um, and, and really drive. I gotta believe get ready for IPO. We kind of admitted that. >>Yeah. And I, and IPO for them, one thing he mentioned is that, um, in this case, this is not an IPO let's high five and go to Vegas and get table service because now we finally have money. Uh, they're not doing, you know, obviously an injection in capital from an IPO is always a good thing or should be a good thing if handled properly, but that's not their primary driver. So it'll be very interesting to see if they can hit the timing. Right. Um, how that, how that works out >>Well and, and bill large is his was predecessor. Uh, he, he, he took over, uh, once the company, excuse me, went private. Um, >>Yeah, that phone backed up. >>I still good in the mic once the company went private, uh, well, no, they were always private. Once they got acquired for five plus billion dollars from inside capital, um, they, they put bill in charge, perfect choice for the transition. And it was like, okay, bill. It's like, when you, my brother's a sailor. He says, Hey, take, take the wheel, see that lighthouse or see that tree go for it, keep it on track. And that's what bill did. Perfect. And he knew the company knew where all the skeletons were buried and, and was perfect. Perfect transition for that. Now they're bringing in somebody who they feel can take it to the next level. They're at a billion. He said he could see 5 billion and, and beyond. So that's kind of cool. Um, the other thing was ecosystem as companies got a really robust ecosystem, all the storage array vendors came on. >>The, the, the backup appliance companies, you know, came on to the cube and had a presence here. Why? Because this is where all the customers are. This is the leader in backup in recovery. Yeah. They all want to partner with that leader. Now they're at out the other shows as well, uh, for the Veeam competitors, but frankly, Veeam, Veeam competitors. They don't have, like you said, they're pure play. Many of them don't have a show like this, or it's a smaller event. Um, and so they gotta be here. Uh, and I think the, the, the other thing was the ransomware study. What I really liked about Veeam is they not only just talked about it, they not only talked about their solution. They sh they did deep dive surveys and shared a ton of data with guys that knew data. Um, Dave Russell and Jason Buffington, both former analysts, Russell was a Gartner very well respected top Gartner analyst for years. Jason buff, Buffington at ESG who those guys did always did some really good, still do deep research. So you had them representing that data, but sharing it with the community, of course, it's, it's gonna be somewhat self-serving, but it wasn't as blatant. It that wasn't nearly as blatant as I often see with these surveys, gender surveys, I'll look at 'em. I can tell within like, seconds, whether it's just a bunch of marketing, you know, what, or there's real substance. Yeah. And this one had real substance to >>It. Yeah. And it's okay. When substance supports your business model. >>Yeah. Cool. >>It's great. Good >>Marketing. But yeah, as an best marketing, I'm not gonna use it. The whole industry can use this and build on it. Yeah. I think there were a lot of unanswered questions. I, what I love about Vema is they're going back and they, they did it in February. They, they updated it just recently. Now they're going back and doing more cuz they want to get it by country. So they're making investments. And then they're sharing that with the industry. I love that. >>It'll be interesting to see if they continue it over time, how things change if things change. Um, one of the things that we really didn't talk a lot about is, uh, and you know, it's, I know it's talked about behind closed doors, um, this idea of, uh, stockpiling day zero exploits, and the fact that a lot of these, these >>Things, >>A lot of these problems arguably could have been headed off, had our taxpayer funded organizations, shared information with private industry in a more timely fashion. Um, um, we had, um, uh, uh, was it, uh, Gina from AWS who gave the example of, uh, the not Petia, uh, experience in the hospital environment. And that came directly out of frankly a day zero exploit that the NSA had identified years earlier within Microsoft's operating system. And, uh, somehow others got ahold of that and used it for nefarious means. So the intent to stockpile and hang onto these things is always, um, noble, but sometimes the result is, uh, less than desirable. So that's, it'll be an interesting conversation. >>We'd be remiss if we didn't mention the, the casting acquisition, the, the, the container data protection, small piece of the business today. Uh, but strategic in the sense that, yeah, absolutely. If you want to appeal to developers, if, if, if, if, if you want to be in the cloud, you know, you better be able to talk containers generally in Kubernetes specifically. So they gotta play there as well. >>Well, they, they, they hit virtualization cloud containers. Maybe I'm missing something in between, but they seem to be >>Ransomware >>Catching waves effectively. Yeah. Ransomware, uh, catching waves effectively, uh, again, not in an artificial buzzword driven way, but in a legitimate disciplined business growth approach that, uh, that's impressive. >>And I, and I think Danny mentioned this, we, he said we've been a PLG product led growth company. Um, and I think they're evolving now. We talked about platforms versus product. We still got still a product company. Uh, but they're bill wants to build out a Supercloud. So we're watching that very closely. I, I think it is a thing. You got a lot of grief for the term, super cloud. Some people wince at it, but it's, there's something brewing. There's something different. That's not just cloud public cloud, not hybrid cloud, not private cloud it's across cloud it's super cloud. All right, Dave, Hey, it was a pleasure working with you this week. Always kind of funny. I mean, we're, the crew was out in, uh, in Valencia, Spain. Yeah. Uh, they'll in fact, they'll be broadcasting, I believe all the way through Friday. Uh, that's an early morning thing for the, uh, for the west coast and, but east coast should be able to catch that easily. >>Of course you can all check out all the replays on the cube.net, also YouTube, youtube.com/silicon angle go to wikibon.com. There's some, you know, research there I publish every week and, and others do, uh, as well, maybe not as frequently, but, uh, we have a great relationship with ETR. I'm gonna poke into some data protection stuff in their survey. See if I can find some interesting, uh, data there. And don't forget to go to Silicon an angle.com, which is all the news. This is the cube, our flagship production we're out at VEON 2022. Thanks for watching.

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by, >>Hey, welcome to the cubes coverage of forward for UI path forward for live from the Bellagio in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin with David. David's great to be back sitting at an anchor desk. >>Yeah, good to see. This is my first show. Since June, we were at mobile world Congress and I've been, I've been doing a number of shows where they'll they'll the host myself would be there with some guests as a pre-record to some simulive show, but this is real live awesome to be working with you again. So we did live last week at a DC public sector summit for AWS next week's cube con. So it's three in a row. So maybe it's a trend. It we'll see. >>Well, the thing that was really surprising was that we were in the keynote briefly this morning. It was standing room only. There are a lot of people at this conference. They think they were expecting about 2000. And to me it looked like there were at least out, if not more >>Funny leases, most companies, if not virtually all of them, except for a handful are canceling physical events. And because they're saying their customers aren't traveling, but I've talked to over a dozen customers here. I just got here yesterday afternoon. I've talked about 10 or 12 customers who are here. They're flying, they're traveling. And we're going to dig into a lot of that. Today. We have Uber coming on the program. We have applied materials coming on, blue cross blue shield. I'm really happy that UI path decided to, to put a number of customers on the cubes so we can test what we're hearing, you know, in the marketing. >>Well, one of the first things that they said in the keynote this morning was we want to hear from our customers, what are we doing? Right? What are we not doing enough of? What do you want more? They've got eight over 8,000 customers. You mentioned some of the ones that are going to be on the program this week, including Chevron and Merck who are on today. And 70% of their revenue comes from existing customers. This is a company that has, is really kind of a use case in land and expand. Yeah. >>And I think you're going to see this trend. You know what it's like with COVID it's day to day, month to month, quarter to quarter, you're trying to figure out, okay, what's the right model. Clearly hybrid is the, is the new abnormal, if you will. And I think we're going to see is, is you're going to have VIP events and this is kind of a VIP event. It's not, you know, 5,000 people, it's kind of 1500, 2000, but there are a lot of VIP customers here. Obviously the partners here. So what they did before the show is they had a partner summit. It was packed. You talk about standing room only. They had a healthcare summit, it was packed. And so they have these little VIP sections, little events within the event, and then they broadcast it out to a wider audience. And I think that's going to be the normal one. I think you're going to see CEO's in a room, maybe in a hotel and in wherever in Manhattan or, or San Francisco. And then they'll broadcast out to that wider audience. I think people are learning how to build better hybrid events, but by the way, this is all new. As I said, hybrid events, I meant virtual events. And now they're learning to learn how to build hybrid events. And that's a nother new process. >>It is, but it's also exciting to see the traction, the momentum that is here from, uh, you know, they, and they IPO at about what six months ago, you covered that your breaking analysis that you did right before the IPO and the breaking analysis that you did last last week, I believe really fascinating. Interesting acceleration is, is a theme. We're going to talk about the acceleration of automation and the momentum that the pandemic is driving. But this is a company that's accelerated everything. As you said on your breaking analysis, lightning in a bottle, this is a company that went global very quickly. We're seeing them as some of the leading companies. We can probably count on one hand who are actually coming back to these hybrid events and say, we want to be with our customers again and learn from you what you're doing, what's going on. And we've got a lot of news to share. >>Yeah, we've been covering UI path since 2015. And the piece we wrote back at IPO was, uh, you, you bypass long, strange trip to IPO and it, and it was strange. And that they kind of hung out as a software development shop for the better part of a decade. And then just listening and learning, writing code, they were kind of geeks writing code and loved it. And then they realized, wow, we have something here we can. And they, their uniqueness is they have a computer vision technology. They have the ability to sort of infer what a form looks like and then actually populated. And the thing that UI path did that was different was they made sound, sounds crazy. They made the product really simple to use, right? And we know simplicity works. We see that with best example in storage, storage, complicated business, pure storage, right? >>They pop it in. You kind of Veeam is another one. It just works. And so they, they created a freemium model that made it easy for departments to start small, you know, maybe for 15, 20, 20 $5,000, you could get a software robot and then it would do things like whatever it, it would pull data out of one spreadsheet, put it into another pull date out of one, SAS populated and people then realize, wow, I am saving a ton of time. I can do some other things. I'm more productive. And other people looking over her shoulder would say, Hey, what is that you're using? Can I get that? And then all of a sudden, like you said, lightning in a bottle and it exploded, not a conventional Silicon valley, you know, funded company, even though they got a lot of funding, they got, they raised close to a billion dollars before they went public. Um, and now they're public went public in April. The stock has been sort of trending downward for the last four or five months, a little bit off on sympathy, but you know, >>What do you think that is? They had such momentum going into it. They clearly have a lot of momentum here. 8,000 plus customers. They've got over 1200 customers with an ARR above a hundred thousand. Why do you think the stock is? >>So I think a couple of things, at least, I think first of all, the street doesn't fully understand this company. You know, Daniel DNAs has never been the CEO of a public company. He's not from Silicon valley. He's, you know, from, from, uh, Eastern Europe and they don't know him that well, uh, they've got, you know, the very, very capable, and so they're educating the streets. So there's a comfort level there. They're looking at their growth and they're inferring from their billings that their growth is, is declining. The new growth from new customers in particular. But there, the ARR is still growing at 60% annually. They also guided a little bit conservatively for the street. And the other thing is they've been profitable. I'm not if a cashflow basis. And then they guided that they would actually be, be somewhat unprofitable in the coming quarter. >>People didn't like that. They don't care about profits until you're somewhat profitable. And then you say, Hey, we're going to be a little less profitable, but of course they get events like this. So that I think it's just a matter of the street, getting to understand them. And I will say this, and you know, this, they're getting a lot of business from their existing customers. We saw this with snowflake, uh, Cleveland research, put out a note saying, oh, Snowflake's new customer growth is slowing. We published research from our friends at ETR that showed well, they're getting a lot of business from existing customers that sort of fat middle is really where they're starting to mind. And you can see this with UI path. The lifetime value of the customers is just growing and growing and growing. And so I'm not as concerned. The stocks, you know, we don't, we don't, we're not the stock advisors, but the stock is just over 50. >>Now it wasn't 90 at one point. So it's got a valuation of somewhere around 26 billion, which was closer to 50 billion. So who knows, maybe this is a buying opportunity. There's not a lot of data. So the technical analyst are saying, well, we really don't know where it's going to cook it down to 30. It could go, could go rock it up from here. I think the point Lisa is, this is a marathon. It's not a sprint, it's a long-term play. And these guys are the leaders. And they're, I think moving away from the pack. And the last thing is this concern about competition from Microsoft who bought a company last year to really in earnest, get into this business. And everybody's afraid of Microsoft. >>Well, one thing that we know that's growing considerably is the total addressable market pre pandemic. It was about 30 billion. It's now north of 60 billion. We've seen the pandemic accelerate a lot of things. Talk to me a little bit about automation as its role in digital transformation from your side. >>Yeah, I think, you know, this is again, it's a really good question because when you look at these total available market numbers, the way that companies virtually all companies, whether it's Dell or Cisco or UI path or anybody, they take data from like Gartner and IDC and they say, okay, these are the markets that we kind of play in, and this is how it's growing. What's really happening. Lisa's all these markets are converging because of digital. So to your question, it's a di what's a digital business. A digital business is a data business and they differentiate by the way in which they use data. And if you're not a digital business during the pandemic, you're out of business. So all of these markets, cloud machine intelligence, AI automation, orchestra, uh, container orchestration, container platforms, they're all coming together as one, it's all being built in as one. >>So 60 billion up from 30 billion, I think it could be a hundred billion. I think, you know, they threw out a stat today that 2% of processes are automated, uh, says to me that, I mean, anything digital is going to be automated. So that is hundreds of billions of dollars of, of market opportunity, right? And so there's no shortage of market opportunity for this company. And that's why, by the way, everybody's entering it. We saw SAP make some acquisitions. We S we see in for talking about it, uh, uh, Salesforce service now, and these SAS companies are all saying, Hey, we can own the automation piece within our stack, what UI path is doing. And the reason why I liked their strategy better is they're a specialist in automation horizontally across all these software stacks. And that's really why their Tam I think is, >>And that gives them quite a big differentiator that horizontal play >>It does. I think I see. So I don't see, I think there's a continuum and I think you got Microsoft over here with Azure and personal productivity in their cloud. And then you've got the pure plays, which are really focusing on a broader automation agenda. That's UI path, that's automation, anywhere I would put blue prism in that category, the blueprints, and by the way, is getting, getting acquired by Vista. And they're gonna merge them with Tipco company that, you know, quite a bit about, and that's an integration play. So that's kind of interesting. I would put them as more of a horizontal play. And then in the fat middle, you've got SAP and in four, and, and, you know, IBM's getting into the game, although they, I think they OEM from a lot of different companies and all those other companies I mentioned before, they're kind of the walled gardens. >>And so I think that UI path is less of a head-to-head competitor with Microsoft today anyway, than it is for instance, with automation anywhere. And it's, and it's growing faster than automation, anywhere from what we can tell. And it's, it's still leader in that horizontal play. You know, you never discount Microsoft, but I think just like for instance, Okta is a specialist in, in, in access identity, access management and privileged, privileged access management and access government, they compete with Microsoft's single sign on, right. But they're a horizontal play. So there's plenty of room for, for both in my view. Anyway, >>Some of the things that you can you think that we're going to hear, you know, seem to be at this inflection point where UI path wants to move away from being an RPA point solution to an enterprise automation platform they made, they made some announcements about vision a couple of years ago at the last in-person event. What are some of the things you think that are going to be announced in the next couple? >>That's a really good question. I'm glad you picked up on that because they started as a point tool essentially. And then they realized, wow, if we're really going to grow as a company, we have to expand that. So they made acquisite, they've been making acquisitions. One of the key acquisitions they made was a company called process gold. So it's funny when we've done previous, uh, RPA events, I've said RPA in its early days was kind of scripts paving the cow path, meaning you're taking existing processes of saying, okay, we're just going to automate them where UI path is headed in others is they're looking across the enterprise and how do we go end to end? How do we take a broader automation agenda and drive automation throughout the entire organization? And I think that's a lot of what we're going to hear from today. We heard that from executives, APAR co co Kaylon, and, um, and, and, and Ted Kumar talked about their engineering and their product vision. And I think you iPad test to show that that's actually what's happening with customers and they have the portfolio to deliver >>Well, those two executives that you just mentioned, and a lot of others are going to be on the program. The next couple of days jam packed. Dave, I'm looking forward to unpacking what UI path is doing. The acceleration in the automation markets. We're going to have a fun couple of days. >>Thanks for coming on here for David >>Lente. I'm Lisa Martin. We're going to be back live from Las Vegas at UI path forward for in just a minute.

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by, >>Hey, welcome to the cubes coverage of forward for UI path forward for live from the Bellagio in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin with David. David's great to be back sitting at an anchor desk. >>Yeah, good to see. This is my first show. Since June, we were at mobile world Congress and I've been, I've been doing a number of shows where they'll they'll the host myself would be there with some guests as a pre-record to some simulive show, but this is real live awesome to be working with you again. So we did live last week at a DC public sector summit for AWS next week's cube con. So it's three in a row. So maybe it's a trend. It we'll see. >>Well, the thing that was really surprising was that we were in the keynote briefly this morning. It was standing room only. There are a lot of people at this conference. They think they were expecting about 2000. And to me it looked like there were at least out, if not more >>Funny leases, most companies, if not virtually all of them, except for a handful are canceling physical events. And because they're saying their customers aren't traveling, but I've talked to over a dozen customers. I just got here yesterday afternoon. I've talked about 10 or 12 customers who are here. They're flying, they're traveling. And we're going to dig into a lot of that. Today. We have Uber coming on the program. We have applied materials coming on, blue cross blue shield. I'm really happy that you AIPAC decided to, to put a number of customers on the cubes so we can test what we're hearing, you know, in the marketing. >>Well, one of the first things that they said in the keynote this morning was we want to hear from our customers, what are we doing? Right? What are we not doing enough of? What do you want more? They've got eight over 8,000 customers. You mentioned some of the ones that are going to be on the program this week, including Chevron and Merck who are on today. And 70% of their revenue comes from existing customers. This is a company that has, is really kind of a use case in land and expand. Yeah. >>And I think you're going to see this trend. You know what it's like with COVID it's day to day, month to month, quarter to quarter, you're trying to figure out, okay, what's the right model. Clearly hybrid is the, is the new abnormal, if you will. And I think we're going to see is, is you're going to have VIP events. And this is kind of a VIP event. It's not, you know, 5,000 people, it's kind of 1500, 2000, but there are a lot of VIP customers here. Obviously the partners here. So what they did before the show is they had a partner summit. It was packed. You talked about standing room only. They had a healthcare summit, it was packed. And so they have these little VIP sections, little events within the event, and then they broadcast it out to a wider audience. And I think that's going to be the normal one. I think you're going to see CEO's in a room, maybe in a hotel and wherever in Manhattan or, or San Francisco. And then they'll broadcast out to that wider audience. I think people are learning how to build better hybrid events, but by the way, this is all new. As I said, hybrid events, I meant virtual events. And now they're learning to learn how to build hybrid events. And that's a whole nother new process. >>It is. But it's also exciting to see the traction, the momentum that is here from, you know, they and they IPO at about what six months ago, you covered that your breaking analysis that you did right before the IPO and the breaking analysis that you did last last week, I believe really fascinating. Interesting acceleration is a theme. We're going to talk about the acceleration of automation and the momentum that the pandemic is driving. But this is a company that's accelerated everything. As you said on your breaking analysis, lightning in a bottle, this is a company that went global very quickly. We're seeing them as some of the leading companies. We can probably count on one hand who are actually coming back to these hybrid events and say, we want to be with our customers again and learn from you what you're doing, what's going on. And we've got a lot of news to share. >>Yeah, we've been covering UI path since 2015. And the piece we wrote back at IPO was, uh, you, you bypass long, strange trip to IPO and it, and it was strange. And that they kind of hung out as a software development shop for the better part of a decade. And then just listening and learning, writing code, they were kind of gigs writing code and loved it. And then they realized, wow, we have something here we can. And they, their uniqueness is they have a computer vision technology. They have the ability to sort of infer what a form looks like and then actually populated. And the thing that UI path did that was different was they made it sound, sounds crazy. They made the product really simple to use, and we know simplicity works. We see that with best example in storage storage, a complicated business, pure storage, right? >>They pop it in. You kind of Veeam is another one. It just works. And so they, they created a freemium model. It made it easy for departments to start small, you know, maybe for 15, 20, 20 $5,000, you could get a software robot and then it would do things like whatever it, it would pull data out of one spreadsheet, put it into another pull date out of one, SAS populated and people then realize, wow, I am saving a ton of time. I can do some other things I'm more productive. And then other people looking over her shoulder would say, Hey, what is that you're using? Can I get that? And then all of a sudden, like you said, lightning in a bottle and it exploded, not a conventional Silicon valley, you know, funded company, even though they got a lot of funding, they got, they raised, I think, close to a billion dollars before they went public. Um, and now they're public went public in April. The stock has been sort of trending downward for the last four or five months, a little bit off on sympathy, but you know, >>What do you think that is? They had such momentum going into it. They clearly have a lot of momentum here. 8,000 plus customers. They've got over 1200 customers with an ARR above a hundred thousand. Why do you think the stock is? >>So I think a couple of things, at least, I think first of all, the street doesn't fully understand this company. You know, Daniel DNAs has never been the CEO of a public company. He's not from Silicon valley. He's, you know, from, from, uh, Eastern Europe and they don't know him that well, uh, they've got, you know, the very, very capable, and so they're educating the streets. So there's a comfort level there. They're looking at their growth and they're inferring from their billings that their growth is, is declining. The new growth from new customers in particular. But there, the ARR is still growing at 60% annually. They also guided a little bit conservatively for the street. And the other thing is they've been profitable. I'm not if a cashflow basis. And then they guided that they would actually be, be somewhat unprofitable in the coming quarter. >>People didn't like that. They don't care about profits until you're somewhat profitable. And then you say, Hey, we're going to be a little less profitable, but of course they get events like this. So that, that, I think it's just a matter of the street getting to understand them. And I will say this, and you know, this, they're getting a lot of business from their existing customers. We saw this with snowflake, uh, Cleveland research, put out a note saying, oh, Snowflake's new customer growth is slowing. We published research from our friends at ETR that showed well, they're getting a lot of business from existing customers that sort of fat middle is really where they're starting to mind. And you can see this with UI path. The lifetime value of the customers is just growing and growing and growing. And so I'm not as concerned. The stocks, you know, we don't, we don't, we're not the stock advisors, but the stock is just over 50. >>Now it wasn't 90 at one point. So it's got a valuation of somewhere around 26 billion, which was closer to 50 billion. So who knows, maybe this is a buying opportunity. There's not a lot of data. So the technical analyst are saying, well, we really don't know where it's going to cook it down to 30. It could go, could go rock it up from here. I think the point Lisa is, this is a marathon. It's not a sprint, it's a long-term play. And these guys are the leaders. And they're, I think moving away from the pack. And the last thing is this concern about competition from Microsoft who bought a company last year to really in earnest, get into this business. And everybody's afraid of Microsoft. >>Well, one thing that we know that's growing considerably is the total addressable market pre pandemic. It was about 30 billion. It's now north of 60 billion. We've seen the pandemic accelerate a lot of things. Talk to me a little bit about automation as its role in digital transformation from your side. >>Yeah, I think, you know, this is again, it's a really good question because when you look at these total available market numbers, the way that companies virtually all companies, whether it's Dell or Cisco or UI path or anybody, they take data from like Gartner and IDC and they say, okay, these are the markets that we kind of play in, and this is how it's growing. What's really happening leases. All these markets are converging because of digital. So to your question, it's a di what's a digital business. A digital business is a data business and they differentiate by the way in which they use data. And if you're not a digital business during the pandemic, you're out of business. So all of these markets, cloud machine intelligence, AI automation, orchestra, uh, container orchestration, container platforms, they're all coming together as one, it's all being built in as one. >>So 60 billion, you know, up from 30 billion, I think it could be a hundred billion. I think, you know, they threw out a stat today that 2% of processes are automated says to me that, I mean, anything digital is going to be automated. So that is hundreds of billions of dollars of, of market opportunity, right? And so there's no shortage of market opportunity for this company. And that's why, by the way, everybody's entering it. We saw SAP make some acquisitions. We S we see in for talking about it, uh, uh, Salesforce, uh, service now, and these SAS companies are all saying, Hey, we can own the automation piece within our stack, what UI path is doing. And the reason why I liked their strategy better is they're a specialist in automation horizontally across all these software stacks. And that's really why they're Tam, I think is, >>And that gives them quite a big differentiator that horizontal play >>It does. I think I see. So I don't see, I think there's a continuum and I think you got Microsoft over here with Azure and personal productivity in their cloud. And then you've got the pure plays, which are really focusing on a broader automation agenda. That's UI path, that's automation, anywhere I would put blue prism in that category blueprints. And by the way, he's getting, getting acquired by Vista, and they're gonna merge them with TIBCO company that, you know, quite a bit about, and that's an integration play. So that's kind of interesting. I would put them as more of a horizontal play. And then in the fat middle, you've got SAP and in four and, you know, IBM is getting to the game. Although they, I think they OEM from a lot of different companies and all those other companies I mentioned before, they're kind of the walled gardens. >>And so I think that UI path is less of a head-to-head competitor with, with Microsoft today anyway, than it is for instance, with automation anywhere. And it's, and it's growing faster than automation, anywhere from what we can tell. And it's, it's still a leader in that horizontal play. You know, you never discount Microsoft, but I think just like for instance, Okta is a specialist in, in, in access identity, access management and privileged, privileged access management and access government, they compete with Microsoft's single sign on, right. But they're a horizontal play. So there's plenty of room for, for both in my view. Anyway, >>Some of the things that you can you think that we're going to hear, you know, seem to be at this inflection point where UI path wants to move away from being an RPA point solution to an enterprise automation platform they made, they made some announcements about vision a couple of years ago at the last in-person event. What are some of the things you think that are going to be announced in the next couple? >>That's a really good question. I'm glad you picked up on that because they started as a point tool essentially. And then they realized, wow, if we're really going to grow as a company, we have to expand that. So they made acquisite, they've been making acquisitions. One of the key acquisitions they made was a company called process gold. So it's funny when we've done previous, uh, RPA events, I've said RPA in its early days was kind of scripts paving the cow path, meaning you're taking existing processes of saying, okay, we're just going to automate them where UI path is headed in others is they're looking across the enterprise and how do we go end to end? How do we take a broader automation agenda and drive automation throughout the entire organization? And I think that's a lot of what we're going to hear from today. We heard that from executives, APAR, co Kaylon, and, um, and, and, and Ted Coomer talked about their engineering and their product vision. And I think you iPad has to show that that's actually what's happening with customers and they have the portfolio to deliver >>Well, those two executives that you just mentioned, and a lot of others are going to be on the program. The next couple of days jam packed. Dave, I'm looking forward to unpacking what UI path is doing. The acceleration in the automation market. We're going to have a fun >>Couple of days. Thanks for coming on here for David >>Lante. I'm Lisa Martin. We're going to be back live from Las Vegas at UI path forward for in just a minute.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back. I'm stupid a man. And this is the cubes coverage of VM World 2020 our 11th year at VM World. And of course, we've been watching VM where they're doing a lot more in the cloud the last few years. Big partnership with A W s. And part of that is they bring their ecosystem with them. So Justus, they've had hundreds of companies working with them in the data center. When they do VM ware cloud on AWS in azure oracle, all the cloud service fighters, the data protection companies can come along and continue to partner with them. That's part of what we're gonna be discussing. Happened. Welcome back to the program. It's been a few years. Deepak Mohan. He's the executive vice president of products organization at Veritas. Deepak, thank you so much for joining us. You've got a beautiful veritas facility behind you there. >>Yeah. Nice to meet you. Stew. Yeah. We're really excited about the way in world event and a happy to be on the show. with you? >>Yes. So? So? So let's before we dig in tow data, resiliency and all the other pieces, you know, the Veritas VM relationship goes, goes way back. I mean, I think back to the early oughts, uh, you know, talk about the software companies. You know, Veritas was the, you know, software company in the industry that really got a lot of it started. Yeah, a little company that you and I both know knee M c picked up VM where the rest is history there. But veritas that that partnership has been there since the early early days off from VM ware. So just free refresh our viewers a little bit on on that partnership. >>Yeah, So we, um we're and Veritas have bean partners for, like 20 years. In fact, I'll say, both companies were founded about the same time. We, uh, neighbors in Silicon Valley and Veritas was actually one of the first companies to have introduced the concept off software defined data center software, defined storage. In fact, even before, you know, visa and all came into the picture. But as we and we're progressed with, the virtual is ations off the infrastructure. It was really important for enterprise customers to ensure that both their applications stay resilient and highly available, and all that data remains protected. So at 87% off the global fortune 500 customers are veritas customers. They're all using we and we're in their infrastructures. So any time we, um we're introduces a technology we have to ensure it is available, it's protected eso that partnership goes along a long way where every remember platform has way supported on day one for the Veritas solution. So very tight partnership. We get to see each other frequently and make sure that our solutions are joined at the hip. >>Yeah, Deepak, the term we hear from Veritas, we talked about data resiliency. And as you laid out there, you know, some things have changed. You know, 20 years ago, we weren't talking about cloud native environments, and you know all of these various pieces. Uh, it was really multi vendor heterogeneous environments that veritas lived in. Um, but even in all of these environments of, of course, you know, data resiliency, you know, making sure my data is protected, making sure things they're secure. Um, is still, you know, top of mine and so important for organizations. So, you know, talk to us a little bit about you know what that means here in 2020. With Veritas? Yes. >>So I'll say. 20 years ago, uh, we had one application. One server. Life was very fairly simple. Um, you know? Then came William where? You know, now we have the hybrid private clouds, public clouds, hybrid clouds. So the infrastructure is shifting into these other models, but the need for application resiliency and data resiliency is getting more and more complex because now we have applications that are running on Prem. They're running in virtual machines. They're running in hybrid environments. They're running in private clouds. They're running in infrastructure as a service. SAAS applications. So they're all over the place now, think about the job off the CEO. First, you have to make sure all these applications are up and running 24 by seven. Second, these applications have to be protected, which means, in case off a disaster in case often issue, you have to be ableto recover them a third. How do you be compliant with regulations with things? So so customers now have to have visibility into their infrastructure. So the job of the CEO is becoming super complex to keep in handle on everything. And that's where, uh, the companies like Veritas who are doing application resiliency data resiliency has become really important. I mean, as an example, last year at VM World Show floor, I actually counted the number off backup vendors compared to storage vendors. And there was actually more data protection and resiliency vendors on the floor. Then they were actually storage. Wentz. >>Yeah, Deepak here. You're absolutely right. We saw that, you know, for for years we used to call it storage world because they had all come in partner with VM Ware. But data protection. So So eso important here when one of the big conversations this year, of course, is that rollout of Project Pacific with VCR 77 update one just right, right ahead of the M world. Uh, I'm assuming Veritas is just keeping in lockstep with vm ware, but, you know, talk a bit about you know how that fits into the portfolio. >>Oh, absolutely. So, uh so one off the keys for veritas success over the last 20 years, uh, is that we have kept up with all the technology transformations and all the technology disruptions that happened. And as these hybrid cloud disruption that happening with you mentioned Project Pacific. But you know that it's the 10 zoo platform we are. We are one off the design partners with VM ware for to ensure the data protection layers are done correctly. Eso So we are definitely working with VM ware on the on the Chenzhou uh, resiliency as well as leveraging the Valero platform. So we'll make sure that as a customers are deploying these new solutions the Veritas Solutions out there or or to offer them the resiliency and data protection needed >>Deepak, we've watched that that real maturation of what VM was doing in the cloud, of course, the partnership, you know, first with IBM at VM World a few years ago, right after VM world, it was with a W s. And there was a lot of interest. But we are seeing that customer adoption. I wonder if you talk about how closely you worked with them. Do you have any, you know, maybe anonymous customers that you talk about? You know what they're seeing in the cloud? Why vm ware and Veritas went when they go to this environment. >>Yes. So I'll we have several customers who are moving into the cloud space, uh, leveraging VMC or now with the azure reimburse solutions. So what happens is when these customers we have large financials, for example, who are using now we anywhere and migrating their workloads into the cloud have eso. So they may be deploying virtual machines there. But the need for H A and data resilience in backup actually gets a little bit more complex because the old environments are still there on prime. Some workloads are now moving to the cloud, and they're leveraging The Veritas Solutions want to support the migration. Second, to offer the resiliency, leveraging the Veritas resiliency platform or net backup overeaters input scale. An example is I'll use an example of an air one airline customer reservation systems now moving to KWS within two availability zones. The application availability comes with the Veritas solution. So Veritas is Prue is on their journey to the cloud helping enterprise customers work in these hybrid use cases. >>Deepak, since you've got so many customers and they're going through their cloud journeys, uh, Veritas works across all the environment. You get a good view point as to where we are. One of the things we're really trying to help clarify people. We throw out these terms Hybrid cloud and multi cloud. Most customers I talked to we have a cloud strategy and you use more than one cloud. Yes. Is portability the big concern? Well, no, I'm not moving things all over the time. I don't wake up and say, you know, I'm checking the stock market and therefore I'm gonna, you know, move toe one of the other, but I need tohave my multiple environment. It's difficult on them with different skill sets. Uh, and you know, we're seeing, you know, companies like Veritas and VM where, you know, living where the customer is. So give us a little insight as toe what you're seeing from the customers, this whole hybrid, multi cloud environment. What? What does it mean to to your customers? >>Eso what? What? And says, You know, we have a variety of customers and, you know, invariably, when we talked to them, each one of them has, ah, little bit different journey to the cloud. I you know, some customers I'd say maybe more mid market. Want to move completely towards ah platform as a service approach and leverage either azure or a W s. Uh, but I'll say most of the enterprise customers are looking at, uh, taking workloads. It could be one of the applications. Some are further ahead in the journey, and they're taking now a mission Critical application. Okay, You know, it could be and s a p workload. It could be a thumb mission critical, you know, building system reservation systems and then using VM ware as the mechanism to go into the cloud with it and and and And when they do that, they're looking for the same level and same level of tools for both availability and data protection. Eso I'll say that we have lots of different examples between utilities, healthcare companies, financials, government. Yeah, who are ill say the common theme is now they're moving towards. I'll say the harder workloads are now moving to the cloud. And now they're absolutely leveraging tools from where eaters. They want to make sure that our solutions actually support those complex and highly scalable use cases. And we're absolutely doing that with the solutions. >>Deepak, you talk about some of the challenges that customers have. You know, some things have changed in 2021 thing that has not changed eyes that security is top of mind. We often see the, you know, data protection and security. Some of those pieces go hand in hand. I remember years ago talking at at the Veritas conference, it was G, D, p. R. And Ransom. Where were the big things that we talked about with every single customer as to how they were defending and preparing for that? So give us, give us the state of your environment. We know that even when everybody's working from home, unfortunately, the bad actors they're actually working over telling >>No. Yes. So I'll see the problem off. Ran somewhere has actually gotten a whole lot worse over the last couple of years. Uh, so, Aziz, we think about ransom where, uh, we have the security layer, which means, you know, first is you have to make sure your infrastructure is protected. You know, the second layer is detection. Which means how do you know if there's ransomware sitting in your environment? Because it could have come in and it may actually click in at a much later time, and the third is recovery. And to be able to recover, you need really good data protection and back up policies within the companies were able to recover it. So, of course, uh, most companies invest a lot in the security software, but we know that ransomware still get sent. It can get into a phishing attack. It can get into email some one off the employees at home clicks on something. You know, Ransomware is in eso the backup, and the data protection is the last line of defense from to be able to recover. So now you have it. You're stuck. What do you do? You want to find the last best copy, uh, be able to recover very, very quickly, and and the problem is is really serious. I was actually talking to my one off our tech support leaders, and we get at least one color day with one of our customers that have been hit with ransom er and we helped them through the recovery process s Oh, that's a heavy investment area for Veritas. Without that backup software backup exact software, but also with the hardened very terse appliances. We provide a very solid way for our customers to be able to protect and recover from Ransomware. The only thing I suggest is you know, once you have been hit at and if you don't have a good backup you know, I talked about that huge. Just state that entire state has to be protected also from ransomware, which means standardization is key. So when something happens, are you going to look at nine products to recover from or you want all your catalogs, all your data, all your insights in one place, so you can then go quickly, come back online and not have to pay the ransom? >>All right. Well, Deepak, let's let's bring it home. We're here at VM World. We we talked at the beginning about the long partnership. You were there, you know, Day zero with the VCR seven activity. What do you want people to take away from VM World 2020. When it comes to Veritas, >>I'm a key message. Tow our mutual customers as that veritas is here to support your journey to the hybrid cloud to the cloud. We are investing heavily in the solutions we Our goal is to continue providing today zero support for all we end where solutions and releases. And we're working very closely with VM ware on the 10 zoo platform rollout. We have a design partner with me and were there as well as leveraging the right AP eyes, whether to be a d. P. V i o P sent were certified on every latest versions off the VM Ware portfolio. We have several 100 engineers that work the just to make sure that we support these platforms, you know, in additional say's as the women were connects toe aws and to azure. Those solutions are also extremely well certified. So where it'll works very closely with AWS we were the first to be certified on the the AWS solutions. >>Uh, you're you're you're talking about like outposts, I believe. >>Oh, yes. Outpost. Yeah, so we just got the outpost ready. Certification, you know, works extremely well with the reimburse solutions. A swell Aziz A V s, uh, azure reimburse solutions so heavy areas off investment for us. So the same way that our customers have depended on us over the last 20 years. We are writing the technology disruptions to help our customers into the next wave with the same set off solutions working both on prime hybrid and clouds. >>Yeah, Deepak, I'm having flashbacks. You and I remember the things when it was the V x f s and the Vieques VM. And now we've got the, uh you know, uh, you know all the very the VM Ware versions on A V s and Google Cloud VM Ware engine. It gets a little confusing out there. But, hey, I really appreciate you giving us some clarity as to how you're helping customers with their their data resiliency supporting and ransomware and the deepen long partnership that Veritas and VM Ware have. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Thank you. Stew. >>Alright, Stay tuned. Lots more coverage from VM World 2020. I'm stew minimum and thank you for watching the Cube

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Welcome back everybody. Jeffrey here with the cube. We're at RSA 2020, downtown San Francisco and Moscone center, 40,000 professionals in the security industries, the biggest security event in the world. I'm pretty sure, certainly the biggest one in the U S we're excited to have somebody who's been running around taking care of these problems and talking to customers for a very long time. It's got a great longterm perspective. We're happy to have him. Jonathan, new wind, the VP global field say-so team for fortunate. Jonathan, great to see you. So you said you've been coming to this show for a long, long time. Love to get kind of your impressions that the human element is the theme. Yeah, well, sheer, you know, I, I think, uh, it's changing. It's uh, the attendance is broken out by very senior people who've been here for, you know, multiple events and then a whole new slew of people are coming into the industry, right. >>And there's a lot of excitement. It's, um, there's a little bit less of a buzz. It just seems it's a little bit less people here this year because of the virus scare. Um, but overall I think that the themes are pretty consistent, which is kind of tragic that the themes are consistent year after year because this suggests that not a lot has changed despite the $130 billion and it works with purity span. You know, absolutely complexity. Uh, everyone is telling me about how to solve complexity, how to do more with less, uh, how to do more with less and fewer people and how to get their arms around this vast volume of data that's being generated. And there's a lot of talk about automation and AI, uh, but much more practical, less buzzwords and more practical solutions. And yet still tons of new vendors, right? Tons of new opportunities. >>You know, I don't know what the final count is on the vendor side, but it's a really large number and you go off into the corners to the EDBD little, little, a little mini boost is still a time of innovation. So I think that people trying to move the ball. So I think when the first show first started, there were less than a less than 500 vendors, I think in the industry back in 2007 I think today we're North of of 5,000 and it's probably 8,000 or about 5,000 vendors in the immediate vicinity here. But just go around the corner and there are dozens of others having their own events and the neighboring hotels and restaurants. It's astounding the number of different point products are still coming into the industry and, and, and that really suggests that we haven't gotten our arms around integrating all of this technology. >>And it's just another level of complexity. So what do you tell your friends on the buy side, right? Who know you and say, say Jonathan, I'm going, I'm going to RSA. How in the heck am I supposed to navigate not only the show specifically, but kind of this vendor landscape and then make sense of it all? I'm telling him to look for vendors that are partners that have a longterm perspective and that do the integration for you. You know, one of the things coming from an operational background, as I talked to other CSOs, like our job is to operate technology. It really isn't about integrating technology. It really isn't about OAA and product. I want to focus my budget and my resources on operating technologies and manage risk. So I look for partners and mentors like, like Fordanet that has a fabric with 258 plus different products and vendors that are already integrated out of the box. >>I'm looking for someone that solves complexity rather than a specific problem or specific threat vector. And I'm really looking for some of that helps me understand and manage risk because that's the object of the exercise in cybersecurity today. It's not about compliance, it's about compliance, it's about security, it's about resilience, but a reasonable level of care in managing risk. Right. And yeah, it's, it's a great topic cause I was thinking that kind of in terms of insurance. Yeah. In terms of, you know, how much do you spend and you can't insure everything to 100% right. So it's going to be some number less than that. Everybody else needs a piece of the pie. But how do you make those kinds of trade offs, investment versus risk? Because you can't absolutely protect everything. It makes no sense. So I think that value of it comes back to the CSO and his or her team. >>It's a very human decision. Uh, there is no prescriptive definition of what reasonable care is. You know, outside of one statement by Kamala Harrison, she was the state's attorney in California here, which is the CIS 20 is the minimum level of reasonable care. And so now we have to understand how do we define what is reasonable, what is the risk appetite or tolerance for a company? And once you identify those things, what are the controls and mitigation measures that you're gonna have in place to mitigate those risks? And then what's left is residual risk. And that's a hard decision. How much will you absorb? How much will you transfer, uh, and how much will you just tolerate? Um, but it's really no longer just about compliance, uh, and it's no longer just about having a security or continuity or resilience about all of those things. At a reasonable level. >>Right. It's interesting as pulling up Winnie Naylor from, from Cisco gave one of the early ketos and she talked about, you know, really this security profession, embracing those pesky people that keep clicking on links because really they're the people that can, that have the data around the specific, um, applications and specific assets that the company has to kinda have that informed decision as to what is it worth to protect and do we need to protect it? Do we need to protect them more? Can we let this thing go a little bit? Yeah. I think the human element is the hardest part, you know, in mind at this conference and its theme, that human element. The hardest part about this job is that it's not just mechanical issues on routing issues and networking issues, but it's about dealing with all types of humans, innocent humans that do strange and bad things unknowingly. >>And then malicious people who do very bad things that by design. And so the research suggests that no matter what we do in security awareness training, some 4% of our employee base will continually fail security awareness tests. Well, we fished actively. And so one of the things that we need to do is use automation and intelligence so that you could comb through all of that data and make a better informed decision about what risks you're going to mitigate, right? And for this 4% that are habitually abusing the system and can't be retrained while you can isolate them, right, and make sure that they're, they're separated and they're not able to, uh, to do things that may harm the organization. Right. The other human element is the people on the security teams, right. And it's a tough resource. There aren't enough of them. And, and, and historically, they'd been the ones that, that integration point between all these different systems and it's a highly stressful job. >>You know, there was a Forbes article that said 17% of all CSOs are functional alcoholics. I mean, I mean, and they met as a 17 for 17%. One of every six CSOs medicates himself or herself with alcohol. And medicate is a very specific term of art. It doesn't mean recreational drinking means you are a functional alcoholic and that tells you about the level of stress and complexity. You know, in this job, our research suggests that the average CSO lifespan is somewhere on the low end of about 12 months on the high end, somewhere about 24. You know, in their role or in their profession, their role and their current job, their current gig, they're not lasting more than than two years. Uh, the sheer complexity and stress of the job and you know, and, and those, of course, 24 months, three of those months are just orientation cause that gives you an idea. >>It's a level of stress and complexity that the average CSO is going to face here. Right. So really begs for a lot more automation, a lot more automation on the defense side. It does, it, it makes for a lot more automation. And how do you help those teams cope with a massive levels of complexity and data that's coming out of these digitized and digitally transformed enterprises, right? And when you think about each person's going to generate three to five terabytes of data per person per day, uh, and that computing is going to change in the next three to five years. Right now 85% of computing and data generated comes from traditional it functions as you move into 5g and edge based computing, the vast majority of data generating computing will be done on the edge. So the level of complexity, the number of technologies and devices that we're going to have to monitor is only going to expand, right? >>Right, right. And the speed of those transactions and the speed of the potential harm. So marry that against the research data says that 99% of the attacks could have been mitigated through simple intermediate controls and that the patches, the signatures were readily available. And so the thing to contemplate as we go into this heightened level of complexity and expansion of our computing environment is we're missing the basics today, right? Right. If 99% of the successful attacks are based upon exploits that are known that the signatures are available in the patches available for then a year, what are we going to do when everything else becomes even more complex, more sophisticated. Yeah. That's funny. That was part of, of of raw heats keynote, uh, to kick off the whole thing is he said, you know, we as security professionals like to focus on the complex, we like to focus on the, the ornate and the, and the super sophisticated attacks on the reality is the vast majority and we're just coming right in the normal side door that they've been coming in all along. >>And one thing I decided during my time at the Verizon data breach investigations report was a 77% of all the breaches were not identified by the security team. They were identified by law enforcement. And so 77, 77% of the case. So let's, so let's say you've got a CIS admin that that goes out and accesses financial information before the earnings call and does insider trading. And it's the sec that calls the FBI. And then it's the FBI that calls you and said, by the way, your CIS admin is going to be charged with insider trading. And that's how they know that there's been a compromise out. And in many cases, what does that tell you? Despite $130 billion of network security spend this year alone, that's seven out of 10 data breaches will be identified by law enforcement and not the security team. Yeah. So that tells you that not the security law enforcement team, either it's the FBI or the sec hires the cl service and it just says that security is so complex that until we find ways like the FORNAS security fabric to automate and to manage complexity in an integrated way, you know, that's the, that's the leading edge indicator that I look for is that at what point do security teams identify more data breaches then law enforcement and the victims and they're way behind at this point? >>I think so, unfortunately. Yes. That's crazy. So, um, but there's a lot more AI now that you guys can use to write on the good guys side. But how does that really square the circle when you're saying so many of it just comes through the simple approaches because of lack of visibility. Uh, SOC teams are overwhelmed by the volume of data. And so the way to address the volume and variety and velocity of data is to use artificial intelligence to use a machine to make human decisions and behavior at machine speed. And so when we launched our 40 AI product offering and the virtual security analysts, you know, the research that we did suggest that is he pivoted a five SOC analysts. And so that's one way of helping SOC teams that are overwhelmed by the volume of data that are understaffed, to use artificial intelligence to distill out from all of that, that data, that useful patterns, and to marry that with our Florida guard intelligence, say, okay, this is the techniques, tactics and procedures most likely associated with this threat vector right now, escalate that to a human to make a decision on whether you want to mitigate that. >>And once you decide to mitigate that, use the automated and integrated capabilities of the fabric to make an efficient and effective, uh, mitigation, uh, of that incident. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. You bring up the sec case. We had a conversation earlier today where we were talking about deep fakes. Yeah. If somebody had the use case that, you know, what, if you just had a pretty straight forward, deep fake of some executive from some companies saying something to move the market and you drop that into the, uh, into the social stream three minutes before the close on a Friday, you get a play off the off the margin leverage. Nobody gets to really investigate the thing until the four minutes are over. Markets are closed, right? You get a significant financials damage in a situation like that, not even really directly impacting the company system. Right. >>So you're, you're hitting on the fact that we are more interconnected than ever and that the traditional compensating controls that we would have used to mitigate that type of risk is not, not as effective. And so, you know, that's going to be a challenge moving forward. Everything is going to be more interconnected, accelerated and decisions will be driven by data. So it's all of those things will drive complexity. So maybe next year when we talk again, we'll see it and see that. But I'm a little, one of the reasons I'm, you know, I have a credit freeze personally is that I'm aware of things like, like deep fakes, uh, impersonations moving my identities. So having a credit freeze allows, allows me to know that no one can leverage my credit even if they have my data. Right. Interesting. So thanks. Question. We sit down here a year from now, uh, without the benefit of 20, 20 hindsight. >>Yeah. You know, what do you think the themes are going to be? What, what do you see as kind of this kind of short term move in the market based on some of these factors that you've identified? I think, uh, more automation, more uh, artificial intelligence ways of automating the traditional process was insecurity. The secondarily, I think there's going to be the rising awareness of edge based computing and smart systems, autonomous level five vehicles that are networked and rather than a sensory based awareness, smart homes, smart industrial applications, uh, that computing will be done on the edge increasingly and those industrial applications, that 85% of the data computer will be done there. And that increasingly the cloud will become a repository for, for, uh, for storage and correlation. But the actual computing and actuation will be done on the edge. And so as 5g takes hold, you're going to see tremendous transformations in our society and our economy and how we conduct commerce, how we communicate. >>Uh, and that leads some more complexity. That's why, that's why I'm so focused on helping organizations getting security right now before that next onslaught of complexity hits us. It's coming. It is the five G IOT thing is, is just around the corner. The look at the telcos, there is a very specific reason why they're investing literally hundreds of billions of dollars into five G and the tremendous societal and economic changes that that will bring in infrastructure, communications and security will have to stay pace with that. One of the things that we're going to see moving forward is that the digital infrastructure is only successful only as successful as a security is. And I think we'll, we should see a breakdown in the traditional operational silos in network operations and security operations as Michelle Dennett. He said earlier on the air, if you cannot protect, you should not connect. But unfortunately people are still connecting before they're ready to. Absolutely. Well, hopefully there'll be a little bit more circumspect going forward. We'll try Jonathan, thanks for, uh, for taking a few minutes and sharing your perspective. Really appreciate it. Always a fun time. Alright, Jonathan, I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube where at RSA 2020 from downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>>Ply from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 20 fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners >>come back to the live coverage of Q four days here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm John for a stupid cube coverage at Cisco live 2020 in Europe. Our next guest, Michael Beasley CTO of the Cisco service provider business unit. Michael, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. It's great to see you guys again. You came on at the Cisco live show last year, 2019 in the U S obviously as a CTO of the service provider group, you're in the middle of all these really big conversations because the service providers, I've been really trying to push the envelope for generations into getting better performance, but the diversity of services that they have to start bolting onto their infrastructure. Now with all the pressure of the cloud providers, everybody's streaming these days, so all these new competition, so service parts still have a huge footprint, huge infrastructure. >>That's the story. What's going on with a service provider. They obviously do, I mean more and more service providers are deploying and running critical infrastructure for their consumer customers, their enterprise customers, and obviously as as the economy, as nations, as industries continued to digitize, that infrastructure's critical for governments, for countries and for whole economic environments. And the reality of course is that the bandwidth keeps growing more and more bandwidth is coming onto the network. We see tremendous innovation and advancements in the access layers, whether it be on the DOCSIS for cable, wifi, six obviously for wifi and for five G with regard to mobility. So the amount of bandwidth that can come on to the network keeps rising, rising exponentially. So the service providers, you know, obviously that poses a set of challenges, but also a set of opportunities as they rethink their architectures and their infrastructure to be able to deliver that bandwidth cost-effectively. >>I know cost is a huge concern for these guys because they do spend a lot of money. Stu and I were just reminiscing about how much we've been following Cisco growing up in the computer industry at our rate and we're there when Cisco was born and watch it progress over the years and now as it's on the next generation or the next gen cloud, next gen, everything. It's interesting you have the service providers say, but the one that you're in, and I would say maybe financial services have always been like the hardcore Cisco customer pushing the envelope on the gear, pushing the envelope on the technology because they have low latency requirements. You move and pack us around. Right now you're starting to add more payload with more bandwidth coming. It really kind of the fit of the bellwether. What are the big trends that they're driving now because again, they have to maintain those table stakes and still pioneer new ground. >>What are some of the things that they're doing that you see or tell signs for the future? >> I think the things that I see is first of all, a drive towards rearchitecting the network such that it's much more simple, easier to operate, more cost effective and more reliable to operate with w with new next generation technology up and down the SAC, the stack from the Silicon through the actual systems, the embedded software, the optical modules, all of the physical ingredients that go into building a next generation software defined transport network. That's really what I see our major customers aim towards. Obviously it takes time. There's an amount of challenges given that some of these customers have been running networks for century. That said the desire and the efforts to partner with us to get to that future state such that the bandwidth can be offered cost-effectively and very reliably as we're building out this, these critical infrastructures. >>I would add. The other aspect is that as these networks are getting more powerful delivering more services, there is more of a consideration for the integrity, the trustworthiness and the security of the actual networks and the actual infrastructure from the hardware through the software in Silicon that actually make the make up these networks in having technologies that can measure the trustworthiness and the fidelity both from a hardware but also from a software perspective and be able to report off of the infrastructure without the station records to verify and to drive analytics with regard to the cleanliness and the trustworthiness of this infrastructure. >>Yeah. Michael, I remember leading up to the announcement that this is gladness. December, it was, Oh here's the next gender issues generation in the internet and in my mind I was like, Oh, sounds like it's time for the next generation of routers. But what I found really interesting is, you know, what are those next generation applications that are going to drive things? You know John talks about from a history lesson, I remember going back, you know, okay, what's going to drive 10 gig? Oh, we're going from a lot of North South to the East. West virtualization wave was really kicking off inside data centers these days. You know, it's multicloud, it's cloud native application 5g of course as a drum beat in the background. Talked a little bit about some of those applications, the business impact that the surface fighters need to be able to enable in this rollout of this new technology. >>Yeah, it's a very interesting area. I've been in the industry for 30 something years, just about 30 years and I think I've never found the industry more exciting than it is today. Obviously there's that set of challenges, but there's an incredible set of opportunities as well. We have all of the applications that we know and love today are continuing to grow at exponential rates and get bigger, you know, further and further adoption. If you think you know the fact that less just slightly less than all humans on the planet are on the internet with more coming in the future at an accelerated rate and bringing more devices with them, we think that the average device per user will go for about two up to about three and a half over the next few years. So you have the current set of applications, whether it be social media, video, video streaming, they continue to grow. >>And then there is a whole new set of applications that we'll see. There's a long list. We will see which ones actually transpire. It's hard to predict, but everything from advances in gaming, artificial intelligence, AR, VR services, telemedicine, the continued digitalization of industry in particular, manufacturing, transportation, oil and gas. All of these industries opened up at the prospect for new applications that will run on top of these infrastructure that will drive exponential growth in bandwidth and also will, will require much, much better latency from the actual network infrastructure. So there are areas that we're focused on and delivering the innovation and the core building blocks to allow our customers to build these networks to offer these services. >>Well, one of the other challenges, and you've talked about these, these transitions in this step function that networking tends to do is the cost involved when you go from one generation to the next. Cisco of course, has a large optics business know major player in the industry. Talk to us a little bit about what 400 gig means today and have people should be thinking about the cost of these types of solutions. >>Yeah, it's interesting. Certainly as we've, as we've seen from each generation as the interface speeds have changed, the actual bomb, the bill of materials for the solution has changed significantly with regard to which piece account for what dollars it used to be. If you go back to the 10 gig generation, the actual networking equipment itself was the majority of the cost. That was the majority of the bomb optic modules that plugged in were a minority. Maybe the optic optic modules were 10 or 15% and the rest was actually the system. As we look to the 400 gig generation that is actually reversed the, we now have network Silicon that is so dense and so fast that eight can power a full 36 ports, a 400 gig on an actual line card. So you're plugging in 36 optical modules to bring that bandwidth to the, to the networking Silicon. >>So as a percentage of the bomb, the optical module is not much higher from a bomb perspective. It also becomes more critical technology with regard to the reliability and the cost of the whole solution. And this is why Cisco is taking a big focus on the optical module space. We've obviously continued our own organic development and we've also been quite active on the M and a front with regard to ensuring that we have the technology and the right R and D programs to be able to deliver very reliable, cost-effective optics at 400 gig and beyond. So you brought up Silicon, so I got to ask the Silicon one question we were covering at the launch in San Francisco, Chuck Robin was there, David Geckler, you had all the top dogs. They're kind of really kind of going off on the future of Silicon, but of course Silicon angle's interested in covering that because that's in our name. >>But the trend is about cloud scale and operational efficiency. And one of the things that's coming out of the cloud trend is an operating model in public cloud and on premise that is proven. That's what people are going through. That's hybrid. How were the SP service providers implementing that? Do you guys see the Silicon one being that opportunity where they can have an end to end software life cycle having operating model? Is that some of the value? So then what's the real story for us writers? So, I mean that's, that's a core aspect of our architecture and our strategy is to have a solution, a full solution that our service provider customers can consume that embodies all of those learnings and all of those operational realities that have built up in the, in the public cloud space. Certainly Silicon one is a key aspect of that with regard to being the fundamental building block from a network processing point of view being the fundamental building block that actually switches traffic that switches pockets and actually routes the traffic through the, through the infrastructure and through the transport network. >>Along with Silicon one we have our embedded software XR seven which is the control plane for that Silicon and it embodies the routing protocols, the management interfaces, analytics, traffic management, QoS services and so forth. But more and more we're augmenting that embedded software with a set of cloud services that are delivered as a SaaS to our customers. That AIDS in operations reduces their deployment efforts, their deployment costs, and also increases reliability of the whole solution. As the SaaS services are augmenting the physical infrastructure, there's less room for human error. There's less room for integration problems with between the layers in the stack. So it's a key aspect of our savagery. Okay. So let me ask you about the user experience or the application experience. So if I'm developing apps on Silicon one, is it multiple stacks? What's the stack look like? What's the, what's the developer environment look like? >>If I'm a telco or I'm a service provider, what's going on? >> So it depends on the, on the use case, what we announced last month was not only the Silicon and our own products, the Cisco 8,000 that uses that Silicon, but we also announced the offerings of Silicon one through a merchant Silicon program where you know, third parties and OEM, a large customer could actually transact with us on the Silicon alone where we're selling them the actual Silicon. In that context, the Silicon comes with a full featured software development kit that sits on top of that Silicon. You can consider that a device driver if you like an abstraction layer that then allows that third party to either use open source or to build their own network services stack on top of that SDK that can then leverage all of the power in the innovation that is in the Silicon one engine. >>Before I get to my video question because I, cause we're doing video, we care about facts but we love more bandwidth. We love more video action. How do you talk to customers that you meet with? Because we hear a lot from the community and our expert network on the cube alumni that in certain there's a lot of pretender products out there, you bolt on a Nick offload. Where is it okay to have kind of like performance enhancements, performance enhancing hardware. That sounds kind of, that didn't sound right, but performance hardware when when the system is more important. So which customer profiles want more of the Silicon one or Cisco 8,000 versus a either an enhancement product and how does the customer determine what's a fit form one may be look good on paper, low price, high performance. How do you go in and say that's pretending that's a player? >>It's interesting. I think that the fundamental root of the answer to that question is you have to look at the application stack that you're trying to deliver. If it's a homogeneous stack where the applications are infrastructure to deliver services to a third party, then what matters simply is that application and all the infrastructure underneath it. How can you deliver that most cost effectively both in terms of capital costs but also operational cost in terms of power and human operational costs with regard to running the infrastructure. If you, if you think about a heterogeneous situation, public cloud is a good example of that where the public cloud provider is responsible and bears the cost of the infrastructure layer and the customer, the customer themselves are bringing the application workloads to run on top of that infrastructure. In that heterogeneous model. Indeed there might be, you know, some valid business security and operational reasons for actually separating the infrastructure out and having a part in the infrastructure dedicated to run the application on a part of the infrastructure dedicated to the overhead of that application, whether it be virtual networking, security functions, analytics and so forth. >>So it's interesting generally with our customers, what they're looking for more than anything else is bottom line. What is the most efficient way to deliver the end result, regardless of how it's architected, regardless of how the processing is separated into different layers of compute and dedicated hardware, what's the most effective way to deliver the outcome, both in terms of capital cost and more and more operational costs. And as everything gets faster, the power draw is more and more a very dominating function with regard to the ongoing operational costs of these networks. I want to get your thoughts on a couple of trends. One is the comeback. A voice. Stu was riffing about his days were going to voice over IP. Now voice, Hey Alexa, you know there's a small, it's not a real deep bandwidth heavy application, so get great voices coming back that fits a service providers. >>But video is growing really fast. So video is putting a lot of pressure on service providers. What's the state of the art there? Can you make a comment on how you see that evolving? What are they doing and what are some best practices and what are people doing? Yeah, I mean you're exactly right. Video in particular over the top video streaming video, but broadly video at all forms continues to grow at exponential levels. Our analysis, if you look at the Cisco VNI study by 2022 we predict that more than 80% of all internet traffic is actually going to be video. And along with its growth, unfortunately the value per bit goes down because especially as you get higher definition videos in particular, the value per bid to the service provider to the, to the entity bearing the transport cost of the video is actually going down. >>So what that drives our customers to do is first of all provision very high bandwidth networks but also optimize the most cost effective way to deliver that video at very high quality to their end users. I would say there's a few things that are top of mind in achieving that. The first is distributing out the network in particular, distributing out, peering into the Metro areas of the network and no longer having Piering dedicated only at the far side of the backbone when peering is done in the Metro. That traffic is literally on the network for less kilometers. So that helps. I would also say the deployment of edge compute caching and CDN services in the Metro really helps in delivering video. We just got a great tutorial on video architecture in the major highways of the pipes Metro appearing. So changing the dynamics of peering relationships, traffic routes, but ultimately making an efficient. >>Exactly. Well Michael, great to have you on. I know you've got mobile world Congress coming up in February. I always a big show, um, spill some of the announcements for us. I'd love to, but I thought I would be not popular with my bosses by now. Just just teasing you. I know you've got some good stuff on. We're waiting to hear them. We haven't heard anything, but we're getting some rumblings as always. Big announcements for you guys. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I look forward to it. Great insights here on the cube, on the service provider market, the needs, what's going on in the network, and really ultimately video's changing and also the architecture is changing and this is putting more pressure. Again, more bandwidth, more things are happening. This is the Cisco powered cube here in Barcelona. I'm Gianforte Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE here live in Barcelona Spain for Cisco Live 2020. This is our first CUBE event for the year. Next 10 years of CUBE history, we look back 10 years since we've been around, for 10 years, we have another 10 more we're looking forward to. And this is the first event for 2020 Cisco Live at Barcelona. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Dave Vellante, Stuart Miniman, extracting the signal from the noise. The cloud business is noisy, the networking business is under siege and changing, Dave and Stu we're pre gaming, Cisco Live, kicking off the show, end of the first kind of pre day, Tomorrow's the big keynotes. David Geckler, Verizon exec is preparing to announce rumor has it some insights into what Cisco's position will be vis a vis cloudification, that's going to change their portfolio and probably identify some opportunities, and also some potential gaps in their strategy and what they can do to be competitive. The number one leader in networking, they got a great market position. But cloud is changing the game with networking. >> Yeah, john, it's funny, I heard you talking about, the 10 years and everything. 10 years ago, if I thought about Cisco, I'd be looking at the I pattern of getting the jitter out of the network and trying to tweak everything. And today, what are we talking about with Cisco? We're talking about software, we're talking about cloud. We're talking about developers. Yeah, they're a networking company at its core, but Cisco has been going through a significant transformation, it's been an interesting one to watch. Dave, you wrote a little bit about, Cisco is one of the four horsemen of the internet era, of course the dotcom, they were one of the ones that actually survived and thrived after the dotcom burst, but Cisco is a very different company today far from the $500 billion market cap that they had a few years back, they were at about $200 billion, but still dominant in switching and routing. But there are threats from a number of environments and a lot of changes as to what you need to think about when it comes to Cisco. >> Well, sometimes it's instructive to look back and see how we got here. Cisco made three big bets during its ascendancy, the first one was it bet on IP, I mean, John, you've talked about this a lot, it decimated the mini computer industry by connecting distributed computing and client server, the underlying plumbing there. The second big bet it made was it trained a bunch of engineers, the Cisco certified engineers CCIEs, and they used that as a lever and created a whole army of people that were Cisco advocates, and that was just a brilliant move. And the third was under the leadership of John Chambers, They did about 180 acquisitions, and they were quite good at acquisitions and what that did for them is it continued to fuel growth, it filled in gaps and it kept them relevant with customers. Now, part of that, too, was, Chambers had dozens and dozens of adjacent businesses, remember, he said they were all going to be a billion dollars. Well, most of them, didn't pan out. So they had to cut and burn, and so but now under the leadership of Roberts, they're a much more focused company, kind of getting back to basics, trying to bet on sure things and so let's talk about what some of those sure things are and how Cisco's performing. >> Well it's clear you said lever, they're got to pull a lever at some point and turn the boat that is Cisco, aircraft carrier, what do you want to call it? In the right direction? That's been something that, we've been covering Cisco for decades Stu as you just pointed out, and while we've been close to all the action, I think Cisco knows what's going on. It's clear to me that they kind of understand the landscape. They understand their opportunities in the future, but they're a massive business, Dave, you pointed it out. The combination of all those mergers. The thing that got my attention was as they understood the unification many, many years ago in the compute side, you saw Cisco clearly understands the unification. They know cloud is here, they know that do not make a move, that's cloud friendly, they were going to get swept away and be adrift with the next wave, which is cloud 3.0, whatever we call it. So to me, that's the big story with Cisco. What is the impact of the company when you cloudify business? That's not public cloud, that's hybrid public, economics are changing, the compute capabilities are changing, the network capabilities are changing, got the edge. I think Cisco will be defined by their actions over the next two to three years. What they announce, how they position it, and what they bring value to the customers because you got Silicon One chip, good move, got cloud position, got App D on the on the top of the stack, you got cloud center, they're trying to get to the cloud, but you can't do that until you have the subscription business, until you, can't do pricing by usage unless you have that model. So I think it's a brick by brick, but slowly they're doing it. We have to hear some things next year on Cisco, on how they're going to be true, cloud enabled? >> Well, software is a huge play for them, right? I mean, they've got it, because Cisco's been the dominant player in networking with two thirds of the market, I mean, they've sustained that for a decade plus, and it has allowed them to drive 60 plus percent gross margins for years and years and years, huge operating margin. So how are they going to continue that? Software is the key. And as you say, John, subscriptions is the cloud model that is critical for Cisco. Now they talk about 70% of their software business is subscriptions and annual recurring revenue, it's unclear really how big their software business is, they give hints, I'd peg it at about seven to eight billion last year, maybe growing to 10, 12 billion this year. So pretty sizable, but that's critical in terms of them driving the margins that they need to throw off free cash flow so they can invest in things like stock buybacks and dividends which prop up the stock. >> Well, the problem is you start chasing your tail on the stock price and or product TAMS and product revenue, you might actually miss the boat on the new product. So it's a balance between cannibalizing your own before you can bring in the new, and this is going to be the challenge with Cisco, when do they bite the bullet and say, "Okay, we got to get a position on this piece here "or that piece there, ultimately, "it's going to be about customers." And what do we know, public cloud succeeded with one data, hybrid cloud is a reality and people are executing specific technologies to do an operating model that's cloud And to me, the big wave for Cisco, in my opinion, is multi cloud, because that's not a technology. That's just, that's a value proposition, it's not so much a technology. >> Yeah, Dave, you mentioned a lot of the acquisitions that Cisco has done. In many ways, though, some of the areas where Cisco can be defined is the acquisitions that they didn't do. Cisco did not buy VMware, and were behind in the virtualization wave. And then they created UCS and that actually was a great tailwind for them, created their data center business. They did not end up buying Nicira, and yet, Nicira's done very well. But if you talk to most customers well, even if you're deploying NSX, whose hardware do you tend to have? Well, yes, sure, it might be Arista, might be somebody else's but Cisco still doing good, going well, so they haven't had, there hasn't been a silver bullet to kill Cisco's dominant, but how are they going to do without cloudification? The data center group has gone through a lot of challenges. If you look at they fumbled along with OpenStack, like many other companies did, they went through just as VMware really failed with VCloud Air, the cloud group inside of Cisco had, they had this large Cisco offering that for a couple of years, everybody's looking, I don't know, are you enabling service providers? What are you doing? Now they have management pieces, they're partnering with Google, Amazon, Azure, across the environments, they are heavily involved in Kubernetes and the service meshes. So it remains to be seen where Cisco will find that next Tam expansion to kind of take them to the next wave. >> But Stu, acquisition is a good piece. And what I think they got to do some M&A clearly and organic but the question is would Nicira have been successful at Cisco versus VMware. Look at the timing of that, I think VMware being bought would have been a home run. But Nicira, I don't think that succeeds at Cisco. I think that would be a bunch of knife fights internally. And Nicira would have been shifted up because what it was then and what it is now and VMware are two different things because VMware took it, and shaped it, that I don't think Cisco could have done it at that time, >> The success would have been a defensive move to keep VMware out. That would have been the nature of the success, but I think you're right, the infighting would have been brutal, but VMware wouldn't have Nicira. >> VMware, What they did when they bought Nicira is they spent the first three or four years just making it an extension of VMware. Now it's starting to become their multi Cloud Interconnect. And that's where we need to see Cisco be involved. Cisco's bought many companies that have promised to be multicloud management or that interconnecting fabric and they have not yet panned out. >> Well, security is the linchpin though here, they've made a bunch of acquisitions in security. And I've always said that they've got a position, their networking is the most cost effective, the highest performance and the most secure to connect multiple clouds to hybrid on-prem. And they're in a good position to do that. >> Well, I think I've always said this from day one, you guys know I'm harping on this, Stu and I, we High Five each other all the time when we say this, but back in the days in IT days, the heyday, if you were a network operator, network designer, network architect, you were the king, king or queen. So you had the keys to the kingdom. VMware is a legitimate threat to Cisco. They compete, and they talk about that all the time. But the question is, which community has the keys to the kingdom? Rhetorical question. >> Yeah, well John one point I made earlier, (John laughing) >> Okay, go ahead. >> I remember Pat Gelsinger got on stage and he's like, "Hey, here's the largest collection of network admins" and everybody's looking at him, what are you talking about Pat? When I talk to customers that are deploying NSX, it is mostly not the network team, it is the virtualization team, and they're still often fighting with the network team. But to your point, where I've seen some of the really smart network architects, and people building stuff, Amazon, Azure, Google all have phenomenal people, and they're building environment back Cisco needs to make sure they partner and are embedded there. >> If you, Dave mentioned the leverage. Cisco's got to pull that lever or, turn the boat around and one shift move now, or otherwise, they'll lose that leverage. They have more power than they think in my opinion, they probably do know, but they have the network. And I think the network guys trump the operating guys, because you always swap in operating staff, but you got the network, and the network runs the business. No one could swap out Cisco boxes for a Synopsis years ago, so or Bay, whatever it turned into, so they have that nested position. If they lose that they're done. >> Yeah, and I agree with you, John, there's a lot of, Stu, you pointed out this, people buy NSX and Cisco ACI, but my question is, okay, how long will that redundancy last? I think, to your rhetorical question, Cisco is sitting in the catbird seat and they know networking, they're investing in it. I don't think they're going to lose sight of that. Yeah, wrist is, common Adam and Juniper, but Cisco, they know how to manage that business and maintain its leadership. I guess my question is, have they lost that acquisition formula? Are they as good at acquisitions as they used to be? >> I think their old model's flawed for the modern era. I think the acquisition's got to come in and integrate and I think VMware has proven that they can do acquisitions right. I think that comes from the EMC kind of concept where it's got to fit in beautifully and have synergies right away. I think what Pat Gelsinger is doing I think he's smart and I think that's why VMware is so successful. They got great technical talent, they know the right waves to be on and they execute. So I think Cisco has got to get out of these siloed acquisitions, this business unit mindset and have things come in, if they work, in line with the strategy and the execution. It has to from day one, I've got it. You got to be fitting perfectly in. >> The portfolio is still pretty complicated. You got the core networking. You got things like WebEx, right? I mean, would you want to be going up against Microsoft Teams? But they're in it, Cisco's in it to win it, and they got to they got to talk about-- >> Don't count out Zoom. >> Talking about, no, Zoom's right there too in the mix. And so Cisco's got some work to do, expect some enhancements coming there, in HCI, they've got to walk a fine line Stu, you made this point. On the one hand, they've got, IBM and NetApp with UCS and conversion infrastructure, but then they buy Springpath, which is designed to replace converged infrastructure. So they've got to walk that fine line. >> All right, what are you guys going to hear this week? Let's just wrap this up by going down the line on thoughts and predictions as the keynote kicks off tomorrow, I took some notes, I was doing some, going around the floor trying to get inside people's heads and ask them probing questions. And here's what I got out of it. I think Cisco is going to recognize cloud and absolutely throw the holy water on the fact that it's part of their strategy. I think we'll hear a little bit about Silicon One and how it relates to the portfolio, but I think the big story will be how tying the application environment together with networking, not end to end but really as one seamless solution for customers. I think it's going to be a top story that's been teased out by some of the booths that I saw, connecting things as one holistic thing with application development focus with DevOps. >> Yeah, so John, ACI was application centric infrastructure. And it was critical back in back in the day there is like, well, the application owner really doesn't have much connection there. If you look at what Cisco has been doing the last few years, it is tying together more that application owner, the DevNet group that, we're sitting here in the DevNet zone, that connection between the developer and making enabling them as part of the business absolutely is a wave that Cisco needs to drive. I don't think we're going to see a ton of the Silicon One, 5G and that kind of stuff, if for no other reason then in about a month, they're going to be sitting here with 100,000 people from Mobile World Congress and that's where they keep their dry powder to make sure that they push that piece of it. But that is super important, so and yeah. >> I think, software and security, I mean, I, as you were talking about, Zoom, Teams, so they better focus on collaboration and I want to hear some stuff there, security, IoT and the edge. They've got a very strong position there. Their security, Cisco security business grew 22% last quarter, it's really doing well. So I want to hear more about that. And I think data center, what they're doing in the data center, what they're doing with their switching business, their HCI stuff and converged infrastructure, hyper converged and, three important areas that we'll hear about this week. >> And Dave, I'll emphasise on what you were saying. Edge edge edge, absolutely, if Cisco is going to maintain a dominant player in the network, they need to deliver on that edge. And I've heard a couple of messaging strategies in the past, there was fog computing and all this other stuff, but I think Cisco is in a position today between Meraki that they have between their core product, >> Dave: Devnet. >> To really be able to enable-- >> And those are really-- >> Well, I want to see more progress, I'm looking forward to see, I'm going to drill them on the interviews we do here. They spent millions, billions of dollars satisfying and creating a subscription model with the cloud. We're going to dig into it, we're going to extract the signal from the noise, theCUBE coverage here in Barcelona, Spain. First show of 2020, Cisco Live 2020, I'm John Furrier, Stuart Miniman, Dave Vellante. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, This is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, California for another Cube Conversation. Where we go in depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Burris. Michael Segal is the product manager, or Area Vice President of Strategic Alliances in NetScout Systems. Michael, we are sitting here in theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in November of 2019, re:Invent 2019 is right around the corner. NetScout and AWS are looking to do some interesting things. Why don't you give us an update of what's happening. >> Yeah, just very brief introduction of what NetScout actually does. So, NetScout assures service, performance and security for the largest enterprises and service providers in the world. We do it for something we refer to as visibility without borders by providing actionable intelligence necessary to very quickly identify the root cause of either performance or security issues. So with that, NetScout, partnering very closely with AWS. We are an advanced technology partner, which is the highest tier for ISVs of partnership. This enables us to partner with AWS on a wide range of activities including technology alignment with road map and participating in different launch activities of new functionality from AWS. It enables us to have go-to market activities together, focusing on key campaigns that are relevant for both AWS and NetScout. And it enables us also to collaborate on sales initiatives. So, with this wide range of activities, what we can offer is a win-win-win situation for our customers, for AWS, and for NetScout. So, from customers' perspective, beyond the fact that NetScout offering is available in AWS marketplace, now this visibility without borders that I mentioned, helps our customers to navigate through their digital transformation journey and migrate to AWS more effectively. From AWS perspective, the win is their resources are now consumed by the largest enterprises in the world, so it accelerates the consumption of compute, storage, networking, database resources in AWS. And for NetScout, this is strategically important because now NetScout becoming a strategic partner to our large enterprise customers as they navigate their digital transformation journey. So that's why it's really important for us to collaborate very, very efficiently with AWS. It's important to our customers, and it's important to AWS. >> And you're going to be at re:Invent. You're actually going to be speaking, as I understand. What are you going to be talking about? >> So we are going to be talking about best practices of migrating to AWS. NetScout also is a platinum sponsor for the re:Invent show. This demonstrates our commitment to AWS, and the fact that we want to collaborate and partner with them very, very efficiently. And beyond that also, NetScout partnered with AWS on the launch of what is referred to as Amazon VPC traffic mirroring. And, this functionality enables us to acquire traffic data and packet data very efficiently in AWS. And it's part of the technology aligns that we have with AWS and demonstrates how we utilize these technology aligns to extend NetScout visibility without borders to AWS cloud. >> There's no reason to make AWS cloud a border. >> Michael Segal: Exactly. >> Michael Segal, NetScout Systems. Thanks very much for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> And, once again we'd like to thank you for joining us for another Cube Conversation. Until next time. (upbeat music)

(funky music) >> Announcer: Live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage it's "theCUBE" covering Vmworld 2019 brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners >> John: Hey welcome back everyone its "theCUBE" live coverage here of VMworld 2019. We're in Moscone North in San Francisco, California. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Our tenth year covering VMworlds. The last show that's still around since "theCUBE" started. EMC World's now a part of Dell Technology World so VMworld was our first show of "theCUBE" in 2010 and we're here with then the Senior Director now the CMO of VMware Robin Matlock. Great to have you. Thanks for coming. 10 years ago we were across the street at the South. The first ever "CUBE", now 10 years later, what a run. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Robin: Well how 'about the fact that this is number 11 VMworld for me so I think we're on, like, number 16 or so for VMworld so, yeah, we've driving been this ship for a while and it's still going strong. >> John: And, you know, when you came in the studio we did a little preview video and one of the things we talked about and you jumped on was this notion of resiliency around VMware. I want to get into that because the keynote this year I thought really used some of his primetime real estate to highlight Tech for Good and really some of the efforts around that so 1. Shareholder value, you guys have been doing great. Stock prices up. But in this era of, you know, corporate responsibility and accountability, this Tech for Good message is real. You guys have been doing it for a while. It's not new, it's not like you're doing it for fashion, it's the real deal and it was a big part of the keynote. >> Robin: It was. In fact, it was really a highlight for part of the keynote for me personally. I mean, I think when it's in our DNA, and that is consistent with our values, and we've been at that for some time. We have values that are all about, you know, customer and community and that's who we are. We also have very high aspirations that of course we have to be performant. We have to perform well as a business and deliver shareholder value but that isn't enough. You know, I do think that Pat leads this narrative that we as a company have to think about giving back more than we take. And it's not just PowerPoint slides, it's real. We empower our employees. I hope you enjoyed the story about Callum Eade swimming the English Channel all for a cause that he chose. He raised the money, he drove that and VMware just opens up those opportunities to allow our employees to do that so I think, we think it's a really important topic, we tried to give it a lot of air time, and give a way for the attendees to connect with it and see what they could take action against. >> John: And also, you guys are also voted one of the best places to work. Your campus in Palo Alto, beautiful and it is a great place to work. But this is the ethos, but it's still competitive and had Carl Eschenbach recently in our studios in Palo Alto and he made a comment he's like, "You know, I've been at VMware "for many, many years", now he's a VC at Sequoia Capital, and Carl said, "You know, everyone's been "trying to kill VMware. This is going to VMware, "that's going to kill virtuals." The resiliency just around the staying power of the product and technology leadership happens. This year it's containers, the attendees are excited by it, the numbers are up, 20,000 people here. Still evolution on the technology side, still great community. >> Robin: Yeah, I mean I think, you know resiliency is in the fabric of VMware but I think innovation is what is the secret sauce and we know in Silicon Valley you better innovate and keep moving forward or you're going to find yourself kind of, left out and, you know, Pat's been an incredible visionary. He's got a team of leaders that are very confident, strong technological disrupters. I mean some of the big acquisitions that we announced just last Thursday at earnings that we are educating folks here about, the intent to acquire Pivotal, the intent to acquire Carbon Black, you know, further that we'll either do it organically or we will acquire interesting combinations of companies to drive unique value to our customers. So I think there was a whole bunch of that today. >> Dave: We were talking in "theCUBE" earlier, Robin, about how now it's a post-virtual machine world and if we go back to 2009, which was my first VMworld as well, Paul Maritz at the time said we're building this software mainframe. Now, of course, you got promoted and I'm sure killed that mainframe from all marketing but (laughs) so well done but you kind of evolved the software-defined data center vision. But one of the takeaways for me from the keynote was this notion of any workload, any app , which was kind of the vision back then and now in a cloud which the cloud wasn't as prominent then. And so from a marketing standpoint you've really, the vision has been consistent but now with all these acquisitions you're making you're really embracing a much broader vision and your marketing message has to evolve as well. >> Robin: To support that, I think the fact that our vision has been incredibly consistent for many years now, I mean, that's Pat's leadership kind of setting that foundation for the company. My job as a marketer is to help find the way to articulate that in a way that's consumable and people understand. But what's happened over the years is we deliver on that vision 'cause, you know, a vision it's not all perfect, we don't have every piece of it or it's not all optimized. All of these moves year after year are just validating and supporting the delivery of that vision to our customers and I think the big moves this year are no different, whether it's Tanzu for Kubernetes, whether it's the Carbon Black acquisition idea, whether it's Pivotal, these are just steps along a journey that's going to deliver on our vision which is delivering any application on any cloud consumed by any device, all with security intrinsically built in the fabric. >> Dave: Well and the gauntlet that you lay down this year in talking to your practitioner audience was that technologists who master multi-cloud will own the next decade. Okay. That kind of says it all, right? And that is a strong message that you're sending to your buyers, to your practitioners so. >> Robin: Yeah, and I think the people that are right here at VMworld, these are the kinds of technologists that have that opportunity in front of them. That's why this whole notion of make your mark it's like, lean into this opportunity. Betting on VMware, building your career on virtualization has opened up many opportunities. It went from compute to storage to networking. It's now into multi-cloud. These are incredible opportunities and these technologists are the ones that can deliver this value for their enterprises. >> Dave: And there's diversity in the messages, you know, all the major cloud players say, "Well no. Just our cloud." You guys are pushing in a new direction. I mean that's what leaders are supposed to do, right? >> Robin: Our strategy has always been about choice, you know, we've really been advocates of letting customers choose the path that's right for them and we know in this cloud war that we're all a part of that customers they are choosing. Some are leaning into AWS, some are leaning into Azure, some are biased towards IBM. Our job is really to enable them to have a rich, powerful experience without friction, efficiently, and operate those workloads in any of those environments. >> John: Have you seen any demographic shift in your primary audience because obviously the operating side, even with Kubernetes, they love it, containers, a messaging channel that's in and of itself but still containers seems to be that next step function with Kubernetes that VM's brought to computing. But when you bring in the dev and the ops that's where it starts to get magical when the operating's got to meet up with the developers. That's been the theme. cloud-Native. All this enablement's coming in. Has there been a shift in demographics to your audience? >> Robin: Well it is an evolving journey, if you will, and yes but it's still, I think we have a long ways to go. We are largely still have an infrastructure audience here, there's a mobility crowd here, there's a cloud architect crowd here. The new audiences are going to be the platform architects that dev/ops community and we do have shifts in that but I would say that's part of the value as we bring Pivotal into the family, we can now merge these audiences and, I think, do a much formidable job at that. >> John: It's interesting, Telco will have them on later. 5G was a big part of the keynote as well >> Robin: Yeah. >> John: A new opportunity, a new affinity group there. >> Robin: Without a doubt, I mean, the whole Edge and Telco clouds are really opening up new entirely new markets. The Telco, the 5G, we do think that's going to be a very significant wave and is going to create new opportunity for new application types, new fundamental architectures that we can now merge between Telco and Enterprise so we think it's really a rich ground for innovation. >> John: You mentioned Pivotal, I think that's more of they were already in the fold, now they're officially in the fold with Dell Technologies but your other acquisitions, there's a lot of them. You got to kind of bring them into the fold so is there the marketing playbook do you have an off-site meeting and you just give them the playbook? How do you handle all the integrations? 'Cause that's always a big challenge. IT integration, messaging integration, again it helps if they're on the fault line of the value proposition but >> Yeah. >> John: What's your strategy to integrate all these companies? >> Robin: Well, you know, any time you're doing a lot of mergers and acquisitions you definitely have to think very strategically about integration and then sometimes you want to integrate fully, right away and sometimes you want to let an acquired company be stand-alone for a little while. Got to get used to the culture a bit-- >> John: Like Velocloud? >> Robin: Velocloud is kind of independent-- >> John: They've got their own building. >> Robin: within the networking team. AirWatch was held very independent for a couple of years. Some other ones are just tuck-ins. You just bring 'em right into the family, you just merge 'em in, it just depends on the size, the scope, the culture and the strategy. I think we take a very purposeful approach to M&A integration and we don't really have a one-size-fits-all strategy. Depends on the circumstances. >> Dave: So follow up on that because clearly there's an engineering culture here at VMware and take the Carbon Black example for instance you talked about how you guys have sort of pretested it with AppDefense but from your standpoint, how do you think about the architecture of the marketing and the messaging? I think you answered it in part. It was sometimes it makes sense to keep it separate sometimes but when you think about the vision do you look at it and say, "Okay this plugs nicely into the vision "and so here's what I'm going to do?" How integrated is it with the rest of the sort of decision-making process? >> Robin: Well, you know, I would take the position that all these acquisitions are plugging into the vision. They are that's why we're buying them because they are very aligned to our strategy and vision. Now I have the challenge as a marketer to deal with a lot of different brands that are coming into the family. I mean, how and when do I consolidate and kind of unite the brands and that is a journey that we're going to be on. We'll take some time to do that. You don't want to rush things in that regard. I think it's very important that the market sees one VMware, one vision and strategy, you know, if it's delivered in a product and it's through an acquisition as a different brand that's okay, we can work on that over time but as long as we're laying out one strategy and vision to the marketplace and just showing these are evidence of proof points of that journey. >> John: Yeah. I mean, you guys, you're pretty clear. Your strategy is to evaluate, understand where they are in the value chain of what you're trying to do. Unlike others like IBM which brings companies in quickly, makes them IBM, you guys are a little bit different, You'll play with whatever the market will give you. That's pretty much what I hear you're saying. >> Robin: Well for example, Carbon Black, experts in security, you know. I think we want to capitalize on that expertise. We want to protect that expertise. They've already been partnering with AppDefense now for some period of time rather than, you know, it's like which one is >> Right. >> Robin: consuming the other (laughing) so our strategy is let's combine AppDefense with Carbon Black and then start working with Patrick and Carbon Black to merge that into the-- >> Yeah. >> Dave: Organizationally, I think that's, at least what I read >> Yeah. >> Dave: was you can set up essentially a cloud security division, right, that Patrick is going to >> That Patrick is going to run. >> Dave: run, so >> That's right. >> John: Okay so VMworld 2019, what's the update here? Give us some factoids, some of the exciting things happening here. We're in the meadow, there's birds chirping here. This is Moscone North, nice build-out, always good build-outs here. Moscone, we're back in from Vegas but what's going on? Labs, activities-- >> Robin: We've got it >> Give the-- >> Robin: all, John >> Give us the highlights. >> Dave: Klingons >> That's right. >> Robin: First of all you've got two great days of keynotes, right, those are really important highlights. Tomorrow we're going to do some really interesting things, demo, technical, deep dive. Great guest celebrity speakers, right, We're going with the sports theme this year and elite athletes and what they're giving back to the world with Lindsey Vonn and Steve Young. But here for the program we have the Hands-On Labs are on fire. They broke records on Sunday so I know they've been really well-attended and consumed. We have over 600 break-outs, so many it's mind-boggling. We have 230 sponsors in the Solutions Exchange and that's probably a place where you can go not just to get the VMware stuff but get that good exposure and lay of the land of the entire ecosystem. And they're all showcasing their innovation. What's new, what's the latest. So I think those give people a really good quick snapshot in one week, you can pretty much get an overview of the entire industry. >> John: Are there any must-sees in your opinion? >> Robin: (breathing in) Oh-- >> John: Or that people are talking about? >> Robin: I think for sure you got to get into this Kubernetes stuff. If you don't come out of this week of VMworld with a good handle on what is Tanzu, what's Tanzu Mission Control, what are we doing with the Heptio acquisition, what is PKS evolution happening, I think you would be missing something if you don't really grok that. Project Pacific work, Kubernetes in vSphere, tightly integrated, so that's a must-do. I think there's a lot happening in the networking space, right. Pat was pretty bold up there about, you know, what is the opportunity relative to network virtualization and the time is now so I think you've really got to get into that from the data center to the Edge to the cloud. Network transformation's hot. And then of course I think the cloud and I think we're really clear on hybrid-cloud and multi-cloud and how to really think about those environments and how, if you're architecting cloud for your company, what you want to be thinking about, what are we doing across multi-cloud, and, you know, I think all that hybrid-cloud stuff, it's all there. >> Dave: As we move to this, you know, this post-VMworld, VMware world how do you-- >> Robin: Is there a post-VMware world? >> Dave: What role, post-virtual-- >> John: Oh look at that, there we go. (laughing) >> Robin: I don't think there's a post-VMware world. >> Dave: Post-VM. I mean virtual machines. >> Robin: Virtualization. >> John: Are you changing the name to container world? >> Robin: No. (laughing) >> Dave: Right, exactly. So what (laughing) yeah what specifically are you guys doing to sort of educate folks, I mean, obviously you've got a lot of Kubernetes sessions, et cetera but just in terms of helping people sort of transform their skill sets into infrastructures of code, being able to take advantage of Kubernetes, you know, we've seen some things in the industry at events like this where you know, guys learn how to program in Python or, you know, whatever it is >> Right. >> Dave: Are there specific plans to do that? Is that actually happening at the event or? >> Robin: Well that's part of what all this content is about, I mean, you know, 600 break-out sessions aren't about, you know, compute virtualization. You can find those but this is about all these different dimensions, right? Whether it's what is Kubernetes, fundamentals, how you think about that in what kind of environment you're running. And I think that's the spirit of what VMworld is about. It's about hands-on, it's about meet the experts, it's about sessions, it's about the ecosystem, it's about having that all at your disposal in one week. >> You forgot something. >> Oh did I? >> The parties. >> The party? >> Everyone >> Well that's not helping your technical-- >> Everyone >> Aptitude >> Everyone knows VMworld has great parties at night and that's where all the action, you guys work hard/play hard one of the ethos of VMware culture. >> Robin: That's right, that's right. Well, we do work hard/play hard because this is intense, right? These guys are trying to jam as much as they can into four days and so we got to let off a little steam and OneRepublic is on stage on Wednesday night. We're going to have a great time. But I do think it's on the back drop of them here they are just like sponges trying to absorb this information. >> John: My final question is, and you guys brought it up in the keynote, around the tech industry good, bad, and Pat says neutral, it's how you shape the technology. Really a call to action and a strategic imperative to be more proactive in accountability and driving change for good. So I got to ask you about the word trust. I've seen a lot of marketing around companies always try to market around trust. Now more than ever the trust, whether it's fake news, company responsibility to security, which is a big part of what you guys do. How do you see that a marketer and what's the conscience of VMware because trust is certainly a big part of what you guys do. Is that a marketing, going to be a marketing ethos? Is it built into everything? Just curious how you personally feel about the word trust. >> Robin: Yeah, well first of all, I think it's foundational to doing good, healthy business. I think you got to be very careful as a marketer to market trust. I think you need to demonstrate your trustworthiness. You need to be consistent. You need to be credible. You need to be there when the times are tough. You need to be, you know, not always asking for something in return and if you earn trust you don't really have to say it. I believe we can position our validity and our credibility proven, you know, having customers say that we're trustworthy, having customers articulate >> Yeah >> Robin: why they depend on us, I believe that's more effective for our customers and, at the end of the day, probably more authentic. >> John: Yeah, and I think people, yeah that tends to be the track record of people who say it maybe haven't earned it, right, earning it's the better marketing strategy-- Yeah, I think these 20,000 (laughing) people are saying it as they show up here with their time and energy and investment. And I think our customers, you heard from a lot of customers on stage today. Gap, Freddie Mac, Verizon, there'll be more tomorrow. You know, I think there's over 100 customers in these sessions here and they're here advocating because they trust VMware. >> John: Well they run their business on you guys. Dave had a survey hey did, just published it yesterday, the spend is not going down. I mean the cloud impacts your business, you're getting into the cloud so that's pretty obvious but just overall the business is healthy >> Oh very >> John: for VMware (laughing) >> Robin: Very healthy. And you know we do that by really trying to have a balanced approach. It is about shareholder value but it's about tech as a force for good, we're passionate about that and ultimately we put customers at the center of our thinking, of our decisions, of our behaviors, and I think that ultimately keeps rewarding us. >> John: Well, Robin, it's been great to work with you over the past 10 years. Continue on. I think you guys have earned the trust, certainly the proof is in the results, and, you know, it is what it is, and the community votes with their wallet on the product and their participation so congratulations. >> Robin: Well if that's an indicator, I think we're getting a pretty good report card. >> John: Thanks, yeah. (laughing) >> Thanks for inviting me. Love being here, guys. Take care. >> John: Alright, Robin Matlock, CMO of VMware here inside "theCUBE" for our 10th year but also as VMware goes to the next level step function with virtualization to containers, Kubernetes, big theme here, I'm John with Dave Vallente, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (funky music)

>> From the Silicon Angle Media office in Boston Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. (upbeat music) >> Hello everybody, this is Dave Vallante with Stu Miniman and we're going to take a look back at ten years of theCUBE at VMworld and look forward to see what's coming next. So, as I say, this is theCUBE's 10th year at VMworld, that's VMworld, of course 2019. And Stu, if you think about the VMware of 2010, when we first started, it's a dramatically different VMware today. Let's look back at 2010. Paul Maritz was running VMware, he set forth the vision of the software mainframe last decade, well, what does that mean, software mainframe? Highly integrated hardware and software that can run any workload, any application. That is the gauntlet that Tucci and Maritz laid down. A lot of people were skeptical. Fast forward 10 years, they've actually achieved that, I mean, essentially, it is the standard operating system, if you will, in the data center, but there's a lot more to the story. But you remember, at the time, Stu, it was a very complex environment. When something went wrong, you needed guys with lab coats to come in a figure out, you know, what was going on, the I/O blender problem, storage was a real bottleneck. So let's talk about that. >> Yeah, Dave, so much. First of all, hard to believe, 10 years, you know, think back to 2010, it was my first time being at VMworld, even though I started working with VMware back in 2002 when it was like, you know, 100, 150 person company. Remember when vMotion first launched. But that first show that we went to, Dave, was in San Francisco, and most people didn't know theCUBE, heck, we were still figuring out exactly what theCUBE will be, and we brought in a bunch of our friends that were doing the CloudCamps in Silicon Valley, and we were talking about cloud. And there was this gap that we saw between, as you said, the challenges we were solving with VMware, which was fixing infrastructure, storage and networking had been broken, and how were we going to make sure that that worked in a virtual environment even better? But there were the early thought leaders that were talking about that future of cloud computing, which, today in 2019, looks like we had a good prediction. And, of course, where VMware is today, we're talking all about cloud. So, so many different eras and pieces and research that we did, you know, hundreds and hundreds of interviews that we've done at that show, it's definitely been one of our flagship shows and one of our favorite for guests and ecosystems and so much that we got to dig into at that event. >> So Tod Nielsen, who was the President and probably COO at the time, talked about the ecosystem. For every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 was spent on the ecosystem. VMware was a very, even though they were owned by EMC, they were very, sort of, neutral to the ecosystem. You had what we called the storage cartel. It was certainly EMC, you know, but NetApp was right there, IBM, HP, you know, Dell had purchased EqualLogic, HDS was kind of there as well. These companies were the first to get the APIs, you remember, the VASA VAAI. So, we pushed VMware at the time, saying, "Look, you guys got a storage problem." And they said, "Well, we don't have a lot of resources, "we're going to let the ecosystem solve the problem, "here's an API, you guys figure it out." Which they largely did, but it took a long time. The other big thing you had in that 2010 timeframe was storage consolidation. You had the bidding war between Dell and HP, which, ultimately, HP, under Donatelli's leadership, won that bidding war and acquired 3PAR >> Bought 3PAR >> for 2.4, 2.5 billion, it forced Dell to buy Compellent. Subsequently, Isilon was acquired, Data Domain was acquired by EMC. So you had this consolidation of the early 2000s storage startups and then, still, storage was a major problem back then. But the big sea change was, two things happened in 2012. Pat Gelsinger took over as CEO, and VMware acquired Nicira, beat Cisco to the punch. Why did that change everything? >> Yeah, Dave, we talked a lot about storage, and how, you know, the ecosystem was changing this. Nicira, we knew it was a big deal. When I, you know, I talked to my friends that were deep in networking and I talked with Nicira and was majorly impressed with what they were doing. But this heterogeneous, and what now is the multi-cloud environment, networking needs to play a critical role. You see, you know, Cisco has clearly targeted that environment and Nicira had some really smart people and some really fundamental technology underneath that would allow networking to go just beyond the virtual machine where it was before, the vSwitch. So, you know, that expansion, and actually, it took a little while for, you know, the Nicira acquisition to run into NSX and that product to gain maturity, and to gain adoption, but as Pat Gelsinger has said more recently, it is one of the key drivers for VMware, getting them beyond just the hypervisor itself. So, so much is happening, I mean, Dave, I look at the swings as, you know, you said, VMware didn't have enough resources, they were going to let the ecosystem do it. In the early days, it was, I chose a server provider, and, oh yeah, VMware kind of plays in it. So VMware really grew how much control and how much power they had in buying decisions, and we're going through more of that change now, as to, as they're partnering we're going to talk about AWS and Microsoft and Google as those pieces. And Pat driving that ship. The analogy we gave is, could Pat do for VMware what Intel had done for a long time, which is, you have a big ecosystem, and you slowly start eating away at some of that other functionality without alienating that ecosystem. And to Pat's credit, it's actually something that he's done quite well. There's been some ebbs and flows, there's pushback in the community. Those that remember things like the "vTax," when they rolled that out. You know, there's certain features that the rolled into the hypervisor that have had parts of the ecosystem gripe a little bit, but for the most part, VMware is still playing well with the ecosystem, even though, after the Dell acquisition of EMC, you know, we'll talk about this some more, that relationship between Dell and VMware is tighter than it ever was in the EMC days. >> So that led to the Software-Defined Data Center, which was the big, sort of, vision. VMware wanted to do to storage and networking what it had done to compute. And this started to set up the tension between with VMware and Cisco, which, you know, lives on today. The other big mega trend, of course, was flash storage, which was coming into play. In many ways, that whole API gymnastics was a Band-Aid. But the other big piece if it is Pat Gelsinger was much more willing to integrate, you know, some of the EMC technologies, and now Dell technologies, into the VMware sort of stack. >> Right, so Dave, you talked about all of those APIs, Vvols was a huge multi-year initiative that VMware worked on and all of the big storage players were talking about how that would allow them to deeply integrate and make it virtualization-aware storage your so tense we come out on their own and try to do that. But if you look at it, VVols was also what enabled VMware to do vSAN, and that is a little bit of how they can try to erode in some of the storage piece, because vSAN today has the most customers in the hyperconverged infrastructure space, and is keeping to grow, but they still have those storage partnerships. It didn't eliminate it, but it definitely adds some tension. >> Well it is important, because under EMC's ownership it was sort of a let 1,000 flowers bloom sort of strategy, and today you see Jeff Clarke coming in and consolidating the portfolios, saying, "Look, let's let VMware go hard with vSAN." So you're seeing a different type of governance structure, we'll talk about that. 2013 was a big year. That's the year they brought in Sanjay Poonen, they did the AirWatch acquisition, they took on what the industry called VDI, what VMware called EUC, End-User Computing. Citrix was the dominant player in that space, VMware was fumbling, frankly. Sanjay Poonen came in, the AirWatch acquisition, now, VMware is a leader in that space, so that was big. The other big thing in 2013 was, you know, the famous comment by Carl Eschenbach about, you know, if we lose to the book seller, we'll all lose. VMware came out with it's cloud strategy, vCloud Air. I was there with the Wall Street analyst that day listening to Pat explain that and we were talking afterwards to a number of the Wall Street analysts saying, "This really doesn't make a lot of sense." And then they sort of retreated on that, saying that it was going to be an accelerant, and it just was basically a failed cloud strategy. >> And Dave, that 2013 is also when they spun out Cloud Foundry and founded Pivital. So, you know, this is where they took some of the pieces from EMC, the Greenplum, and they took some of the pieces from VMware, Spring and the Cloud Foundation, and put those together. As we speak right now, there was just an SEC Filing that VMware might suck them back in. Where I look at that, back in 2013, there was a huge gap between what VMware was doing on the infrastructure side and what Cloud Foundry was doing on the application modernization standpoint, they had bought the Pivotal Labs piece to help people understand new programming models and everything along those lines. Today, in 2019, if you look at where VMware is going, the changes happening in containerization, the changes happening from the application down, they need to come together. The Achilles heel that I have seen from VMware for a long time is that VMware doesn't have enough a tie to or help build the applications. Microsoft owns the applications, Oracle owns the applications. You know, there are all the ISVs that own the applications, and Pivotal, if they bring that back into VMware it can help, but it made sense at the time to kind of spin that out because it wasn't synergies between them. >> It was what I called at the time a bunch of misfit toys. And so it was largely David Goulden's engineering of what they called The Federation. And now you're seeing some more engineering, financial engineering, of having VMware essentially buy another, you know, Dell Silver Lake asset, which, you know, drove the stock price up 77% in a day that the Dow dropped 800 points. So I guess that works, kind of funny money. The other big trend sort of in that mid-part of this decade, hyperconverged, you know, really hit. Nutanix, who was at one point a strong partner of both VMware and Dell, was sort of hitting its groove swing. Fast forward to 2019, different situation, Nutanix really doesn't have a presence there. You know, people are looking at going beyond hyperconverged. So there's sort of the VMware ecosystem, sort of friendly posture has changed, they point fingers at each other. VMware says, "Well, it's Nutanix's fault." Nutanix will say it's VMware's fault. >> Right, so Dave, I pointed out, the Achilles heel for VMware might be that they don't have the closest tie to the application, but their greatest strength is, really, they are really the data center operating system, if you will. When we wrote out our research on Server SAN was before vSAN had gotten launched. It was where Nutanix, Scale Computing, SimpliVity, you know, Pivot3, and a few others were early in that space, but we stated in our research, if Microsoft and VMware get serious about that space, they can dominate. And we've seen, VMware came in strong, they do work with their partnerships. Of course, Dell, with the VxRail is their largest solution, but all of the other server providers, you know, have offerings and can put those together. And Microsoft, just last year, they kind of rebranded some of the Azure Stack as HCI and they're going strong in that space. So, absolutely, you know, strong presence in the data center platform, and that's what they're extending into their hybrid and multi-cloud offering, the VMware Cloud Solutions. >> So I want to get to some of the trends today, but just real quick, let's go through some of this. So 2015 was the big announcement in the fall where Dell was acquiring EMC, so we entered, really, the Dell era of VMware ownership in 2016. And the other piece that happened, really 2016 in the fall, but it went GA 2017, was the announcement AWS and VMware as the preferred partnership. Yes, AWS had a partnership with IBM, they've subsequently >> VMware had a partnership >> Yeah, sorry, VMware has a partnership with IBM for their cloud, subsequently VMware has done deals with Google and Microsoft, so there's, we now have entered the multi-cloud hybrid world. VMware capitulated on cloud, smart move, cleaned up its cloud strategy, cleaned that AirWatch mess. AWS also capitulated on hybrid. It's a term that they would never use, they don't use it necessarily a lot today, but they recognize that On Prem is a viable portion of the marketplace. And so now we've entered this new era of cloud, hybrid cloud, containers is the other big trend. People said, "Containers are going to really hurt VMware." You know, the jury's still out on that, VMware sort of pushes back on that. >> And Dave, just to put a point on that, you know, everybody, including us, spent a lot of time looking at this VMware Cloud on AWS partnership, and what does it mean, especially, to the parent, you know, Dell? How do they make that environment? And you've pointed out, Dave, that while VMware gets in those environments and gives themselves a very strong cloud strategy, AWS is the key partner, but of course, as you said, Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud, and all the server providers, we have a number of them including CenturyLink and Rackspace that they're partnering with, but we have to wait a little while before Amazon, when they announced their outpost solutions, VMware is a critical software piece, and you've got two flavors of the hardware. You can run the full AWS Stack, just like what they're running in their data center, but the alternative, of course, is VMware software running on Dell hardware. And we think that if VMware hadn't come in with a strong position with Amazon and their 600,000 customers, we're not sure that Amazon would have said, "Oh yeah, hey, you can run that same software stack "that you're running, but run some different hardware." So that's a good place for Dell to get in the environment, it helps kind of close out that story of VMware, Dell, and AWS and how the pieces fit together. >> Yeah, well so, by the way, earlier this week I privately mentioned to a Dell executive that one of the things I thought they should do was fold Pivotal into VMware. By the way, I think they should go further. I think they should look at RSA and Dell Boomi and SecureWorks, make VMware the mothership of software, and then really tie in Dell's hardware to VMware. That seems to me, Stu, the direction that they're going to try to gain an advantage on the balance of the ecosystem. I think VMware now is in a position of strength with, what, 5 or 600,000 customers. It feels like it's less ecosystem friendly than it used to be. >> Yeah, Dave, there's no doubt about it. HPE and IBM, who were two of the main companies that helped with VMware's ascendancy, do a lot of other things beyond VMware. Of course, IBM bought Red Hat, it is a key counterbalance to what VMware is doing in the multi-cloud. And Dave, to your point, absolutely, if you look at Dell's cloud strategy, they're number one offering is VMware, VMware cloud on Dell. Dell as the project dimension piece. All of these pieces do line up. I'll say, some of those pieces, absolutely, I would say, make sense to kind of pull in and shell together. I know one of the reasons they keep the security pieces at arm's length is just, you know, when something goes wrong in the security space, and it's not of the question of if, it's a question of when, they do have that arm's length to be able to keep that out and be able to remediate a little bit when something happens. >> So let's look at some of the things that we're following today. I think one of the big ones is, how will containers effect customer spending on VMware? We know people are concerned about the vTax. We also know that they're concerned about lock-in. And so, containers are this major force. Can VMware make containers a tailwind, or is it a headwind for them? >> So you look at all the acquisitions that they've made lately, Dave, CloudHealth is, from a management standpoint, in the public cloud. Heptio and Bitnami, targeting that cloud native space. Pair that with Cloud Foundry and you see, VMware and Pivotal together trying to go all-in on Kubernetes. So those 600,000 customers, VMware wants to be the group that educates you on containerization, Kubernetes, you know, how to build these new environments. For, you know, a lot of customers, it's attractive for them to just stay. "I have a relationship, "I have an enterprise licensing agreement, "I'm going to stay along with that." The question I would have is, if I want to do something in a modern way, is VMware really the best partner to choose from? Do they have the cost structure? A lot of these environments set up, you know, it's open source base, or I can work with my public cloud providers there, so why would I partner with VMware? Sure, they have a lot of smart people and they have expertise and we have a relationship, but what differentiates VMware, and is it worth paying for that licensing that they have, or will I look at alternatives? But as VMware grows their hybrid and multi-cloud deployments they absolutely are on the short list of, you know, strategic partners for most customers. >> The other big thing that we're watching is multi-cloud. I have said over and over that multi-cloud has largely been a symptom of multi-vendor. It's not necessarily, to date anyway, been a strategy of customers. Having said that, issues around security, governance, compliance have forced organizations and boards to say, "You know what, we need IT more involved, "let's make multi-cloud part of our strategy, "not only for governance and compliance "and making sure it adheres to the corporate edicts, "but also to put the right workload on the right cloud." So having some kind of strategy there is important. Who are the players there? Obviously VMware, I would say, right now, is the favorite because it's coming from a position of strength in the data center. Microsoft with it's software state, Cisco coming at it from a standpoint of network strength. Google, with Anthos, that announcement earlier this year, and, of course, Red Hat with IBM. Who's the company that I didn't mention in that list? >> Well, of course, you can't talk about cloud, Dave, without talking about AWS. So, as you stated before, they don't really want to talk about hybrid, hey, come on, multi-cloud, why would you do this? But any customer that has a multi-cloud environment, they've got AWS. And the VMware-AWS partnership is really interesting to watch. It will be, you know, where will Amazon grow in this environment as they find their customers are using multiple solutions? Amazon has lots of offerings to allow you leverage Kubernetes, but, for the most part, the messaging is still, "We are the best place for you, "if you do everything on us, "you're going to get better pricing "and all of these environments." But as you've said, Dave, we never get down to that homogeneous, you know, one vendor solution. It tends to be, you know, IT has always been this heterogeneous mess and you have different groups that purchase different things for different reasons, and we have not seen, yet, public cloud solving that for a lot of customers. If anything we often have many more silos in the clouds than we had in the data center before. >> Okay. Another big story that we're following, big trend, is the battle for networking. NSX, the software networking component, and then Cisco, who's got a combination of, obviously, hardware and software with ACI. You know, Stu, I got to say, Cisco a very impressive company. You know, 60+% market share, being able to hold that share for a long time. I've seen a lot of companies try to go up against Cisco. You know, the industry's littered with failures. It feels, however, like NSX is a disruptive force that's very hard for Cisco to deal with in a number of dimensions. We talked about multi-cloud, but networking in general. Cisco's still a major player, still, you know, owns the hardware infrastructure, obviously layering in its own software-defined strategy. But that seems to be a source of tension between the two companies. What's the customer perspective? >> Yeah, so first of all, Dave, Cisco, from a hardware perspective, is still going strong. There are some big competitors. Arista has been doing quite well into getting in, especially, a high performance, high speed environments, you know, Jayshree Ullal and that team, you know, very impressive public company that's doing quite well. >> Service providers that do really well there. >> Absolutely, but, absolutely, software is eating the world and it is impacting networking. Even when you look at Cisco's overall strategy, it is in the future. Cisco is not a networking company, they are a software company. The whole DevNet, you know, group that they have there is helping customers modernize, what we were talking about with Pivotal. Cisco is going there and helping customers create those new environments. But from a customer standpoint, they want simplicity. If my VMware is a big piece of my environment, I've probably started using NSX, NSX-T, some of these environments. As I go to my service providers, as I go to multi-cloud, that NSX piece inside my VMware cloud foundation starts to grow. I remember, Dave, a few years back, you know, Pat Gelsinger got up on a stage and was like, "This is the biggest collection of network administrators that we've ever seen!" And everybody's looking around and they're like, "Where? "We're virtualization people. "Oh, wait, just because we've got vNICs and vSwitches "and things like that." It still is a gap between kind of a hardcore networking people and the software state. But just like we see on storage, Dave, it's not like vSAN, despite it's thousands and thousands of customers, it is not the dominant player in storage. It's a big player, it's a great revenue stream, and it is expanding VMware beyond their core vSphere solutions. >> Back to Cisco real quickly. One of the things I'm very impressed with Cisco is the way in which they've developed infrastructures. Code with the DevNet group, how CCIEs are learning Python, and that's a very powerful sort of trend to watch. The other thing we're watching is VMware-AWS. How will it affect spending, you know, near-term, mid-term, long-term? Clearly it's been a momentum, you know, tailwind, for VMware today, but the questions remains, long-term, where will customers place their bets? Where will the spending be? We know that cloud is growing dramatically faster than On Prem, but it appears, at least in the near- to mid-term, for one, two, maybe three more cycles, maybe indefinitely, that the VMware-AWS relationship has been a real positive for VMware. >> Yeah, Dave, I think you stated it really well. When I talked to customers, they were a bit frozen a couple of years ago. "Ah, I know I need to do more in cloud, "but I have this environment, what do I do? "Do I stay with VMware, do I have to make a big change." And what VMware did, is they really opened things up and said, "Look, no, you can embrace cloud, and we're there for you. "We will be there to help be that bridge to the future, "if you will, so take your VMware environment, "do VMware cloud in lots of places, "and we will enable that." What we know today, the stat that we hear all the time, the old 80/20 we used to talk about was 80% keeping the lights on, now the 80% we hear about is, there's only 20% of workloads that are in public cloud today. It doesn't mean that that other 80% is going to flip overnight, but if you look over the next five to ten years, it could be a flip from 80/20 to 20/80. And as that shift happens, how much of that estate will stay under VMware licenses? Because the day after AWS made the announcement of VMware cloud on AWS, they offered some migration services. So if you just want to go on natively on the public cloud, you can do that. And Microsoft, Google, everybody has migration services, so use VMware for what I need to, but I might go more native cloud for some of those other environments. So we know it is going to continue to be a mix. Multi-cloud is what customers are doing today, and multi- and hybrid-cloud is what customers will be doing five years from now. >> The other big question we're watching is Outposts. Will VMware and Outposts get a larger share of wallet as a result of that partnership at the expense of other vendors? And so, remains to be seen, Outposts grabbed a lot of attention, that whole notion of same control plane, same hardware, same software, same data plane On Prem as in the Data Center, kind of like Oracle's same-same approach, but it's seemingly a logical one. Others are responding. Your thoughts on whether or not these two companies will dominate or the industry will respond or an equilibrium. >> Right, so first of all, right, that full same-same full stack has been something we've been talking about now, feels like for 10 years, Dave, with Oracle, IBM had a strategy on that, and you see that, but one of the things with VMware has strong strength. What they have over two decades of experiences on is making sure that I can have a software stack that can actually live in heterogeneous environments. So in the future, if we talk about if Kubernetes allows me to live in a multi-cloud environment, VMware might be able to give me some flexibility so that I can move from one hardware stack to another as I move from data centers to service providers to public clouds. So, absolutely, you know, one to watch. And VMware is smart. Amazon might be their number one partner, but they're lining up everywhere. When you see Sanjay Poonen up on stage with Thomas Kurian at Google Cloud talking about how Anthos in your data center very much requires VMware. You see Sachi Nodella up on stage talking about these kind of VMware partnerships. VMware is going to make sure that they live in all of these environments, just like they lived on all of the servers in the data center in the past. >> The other last two pieces that I want to touch on, and they're related is, as a result of Dell's ownership of VMware, are customers going to spend more with Dell? And it's clear that Dell is architecting a very tight relationship. You can see, first of all, Michael Dell putting Jeff Clarke in charge of everything Dell was brilliant, because, in a way, you know, Pat was kind of elevated as this superstar. And Michael Dell is the founder, and he's the leader of the company. So basically what he's created is this team of rivals. Now, you know, Jeff and Pat, they've worked together for decades, but very interesting. We saw them up on stage together, you know, last year, well I guess at Dell Technologies World, it was kind of awkward, but so, I love it. I love that tension of, It's very clear to me that Dell wants to integrate more tightly with VMware. It's the clear strategy, and they don't really care at this point if it's at the expense of the ecosystem. Let the ecosystem figure it out themselves. So that's one thing we're watching. Related to that is long-term, are customers going to spend more of their VMware dollars in the public cloud? Come back to Dell for a second. To me, AWS is by far the number one competitor of Dell, you know, that shift to the cloud. Clearly they've got other competitors, you know, NetApp, Huawei, you know, on and on and on, but AWS is the big one. How will cloud spending effect both Dell and AWS long-term? The numbers right now suggest that cloud's going to keep growing, $35, $40 billion run-rate company growing at 40% a year, whereas On Prem stuff's growing, you know, at best, single digits. So that trend really does favor the cloud guys. I talked to a Gartner analyst who tracks all this stuff. I said, "Can AWS continue to grow? It's so big." He said, "There's no reason, they can't stop. "The market's enormous." I tend to agree, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, first of all, on the AWS, absolutely, I agree, Dave. They are still, if you look at the overall IT spend, AWS is still a small piece. They have, that lever that they have and the influence they have on the marketplace greatly outweighs the, you know, $30, $31 billion that they're at today, and absolutely they can keep growing. The one point, I think, what we've seen, the best success that Dell is having, it is the Dell and VMware really coming together, product development, go to market, the field is tightly, tightly, tightly alligned. The VxRail was the first real big push, and if they can do the same thing with the vCloud foundation, you know, VMware cloud on Dell hardware, that could be a real tailwind for Dell to try to grow faster as an infrastructure company, to grow more like the software companies or even the cloud companies will. Because we know, when we've run the numbers, Dave, private cloud is going to get a lot of dollars, even as public cloud continues its growth. >> I think the answer comes down to a couple things. Because right now we know that 80% of the spend and stall base is On Prem, 20% in the cloud. We're entering now the cloud 2.0, which introduces hybrid-cloud, On Prem, you know, connecting to clouds, multi-cloud, Kubernetes. So what it comes down to, to me Stu, is to what degree can Dell, VMware, and the ecosystem create that cloud experience in a hybrid world, number one? And number two, how will they be able to compete from a cost-structure standpoint? Dell's cost-structure is better than anybody else's in the On Prem world. I would argue that AWS's cost-structure is better, you know, relative to Dell, but remains to be seen. But really those two things, the cloud experience and the cost-structure, can they hold on, and how long can they hold on to that 80%? >> All right, so Dave here's the question I have for you. What are we talking about when we're talking about Dell plus VMware and even add in Pivotal? It's primarily hardware plus software. Who's the biggest in that multi-cloud space? It's IBM plus Red Hat, which you've stated emphatically, "This is a services play, and IBM has, you know, "just got, you know, services in their DNA, "and that could help supercharge where Red Hat's going "and the modernization." So is that a danger for Dell? If they bring in Pivotal, do they need to really ramp up that services? How do they do that? >> Yeah, I don't think it's a zero sum game, but I also don't think there's, it's five winners. I think that the leader, VMware right now would be my favorite, I think it's going to do very well. I think Red Hat has got, you know, a lot of good market momentum, I think they've got a captive install base, you know, with IBM and its large outsourcing business, and I think they can do pretty well, and I think number three could do okay. I think the other guys struggle. But it's so early, right now, in the hybrid-cloud world and the multi-cloud world, that if I were any one of those five I'd be going hard after it. We know Google's got the dollars, we know Microsoft has the software state, so I can see Microsoft actually doing quite well in that business, and could emerge as the, maybe they're not a long-shot right now, but they could be a, you know, three to one, four to one leader that comes out as the favorite. So, all right, we got to go. Stu, thanks very much for your insights. And thank you for watching and listening. We will be at VMworld 2019. Three days of coverage on theCUBE. Thanks for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Commentator: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a Cube conversation. >> Welcome to this special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We're here with Fletcher Previn, who's the CIO of IBM, part of a series we're calling a new brand of tech leaders, where we profile leaders in technology and business, where there's innovation and a changing of the guard of approaches and results. Fletcher, thanks for joining me today. >> Thanks for having me. >> So we were talking before you came on camera, you have an interesting background. You kind of went to an arts school, got into entertainment as an intern, Conan O'Brien... >> David Letterman. >> David Letterman. You were fast track to be a comedian and get into the business of entertainment, (laughter) and you ended up as the CIO. How does that happen? Tell us the story. >> The comedy's better in tech. (laughter) >> These days, certainly, watching the Senate hearings, it's phenomenal. >> Well, yeah. As you said, I thought I very well might go into entertainment, that's kind of more of the family business. And I spent a lot of time on movie sets and worked as a production assistant on a couple movies, and then was an intern at the David Letterman Show and Conon during college. But I did always have this strong other thread of really loving technology and being drawn into it. First family computer was a Commodore 64, but my first real computer for me was the original Mac 128K. And I knew something was awry when I was working at the Letterman Show, I was kind of more interested in the phone system than who the guest that night was. And so, when I graduated, I just accepted it. Why keep fighting this? I'm going to go out to the West coast and start my career in tech. >> That's interesting, you know you always gravitate towards what your affinity is, and I think a lot of people look at today's work environment as an environment where there's so many shifts and new kind of waves. To me, we've always said on theCube, you know, this wave that we're living on, tech wave, is kind of a combination of main frame, mini computers, localary networks and PCs all kind of rolled up in one. Because there's so many different touchpoints that's changing things. You know, you don't need to be a coder to be successful in cyber security, you can be a policy person. Lot of societal changes with self-driving cars, which side of the street do they drive on? All these new things are happening. And so it's really putting the pressure on digital, and the notion of data, IT has become a central part of it. You're the CIO at IBM, how do you look at that world? Because now, being a technologist, we'll get to the idea of it in a minute, but as a technologist, as someone who's the Chief Information Officer, when you look at the world today, you look at the wave we're on, what does that wave of technology mean to you? >> Yeah, well I think as you said, there is no part of our modern life that is not touched, and hopefully augmented in some way, by technology. And so, you know, that's the answer to the question why am I at IBM. Because the kinds of businesses that IBM is involved in, the kinds of enabling technology that it provides, really underlies a lot of the critical infrastructure and systems for our modern way of life. And so, being able to be at a company that has a narrative position in what our collective future looks like is what drives me. >> Yeah, a lot of the application developers, you guys have a huge portfolio of applications. You got cloud computer, you got on-premise, you got IOT, a lot of things, AI changing. You're changing the nature of application development, but also the role of data. At IBM as the CIO, what is your strategy in looking at all these changes? And how do you implement it with IBM? What is specifically your strategy? >> Well, certainly our strategy is there will be no part of the IT portfolio that is not augmented with IBM technology, and in particular AI. And an AI strategy is a data strategy, for us to be able to really collect, organize, harness the power of that data and then leverage it in innovative ways to be a more effective and efficient business. More broadly though, in terms of what is my strategy to deliver IT services to a huge company of IT professionals, it's to lead with design. And there's a lot underneath that, but one of the first changes that I made when I became CIO of IBM was adding, as a direct report to myself, a person responsible for design and user experience. And IBM's got a huge focus on design thinking and leading with the user experience, but for us to be successful, we got to create an environment where successful, excuse me, where talented people want to work. And that requires us to have empathy, and engineer from the user in instead of IT out. >> And making service is a big part, because we've got consumption, people consuming IT. >> Yeah, exactly. The barrier to entry for people to make decisions about what they use or don't use is very different. I think people coming to the business 10 years ago, very different set of expectations, even 5 or 3 years ago. And so, it's got to be carrot, it can't be stick. People just won't do something because you tell them to do it, they have to perceive that this is making their work life better in some way. >> Culture's a huge thing, I want to get your thoughts on engineering for excellence, this is something that you believe in. What's your view on that? What does that mean? What does engineering for excellence mean for you as CIO? >> Yeah, well we spend a lot of time thinking of IT as the driver of culture change. And when people say we're a culture that values engineering excellence, what does that really mean? And it means that we recognize and reward people who are really passionate about what they do for a living, deep subject matter experts in their field. You know, I sometimes get asked, what are you looking for when you're hiring people? And I'm looking to hire people who are kind, passionate about what they do for a living, and believe in our purpose as a company. And if we surround ourselves with those kind of people, we will be successful in whatever kind of problem we happen to be trying to solve at that moment. >> What are some of the guiding principles in an organization that's engineered for excellence? What are some of the guiding principles that you hire and push forth through your organization? >> Yeah, well as I said, we are trying to attract and retain, and ultimately reward the people who are deeply passionate about what they do and believe in our collective purpose. And so I think the era of the generalist is probably a bygone era. I'm looking to attract people that are doing in their spare time and in their hobbies and at home the same thing that we're paying them to do at work, because they love it and they feel fulfilled by it. >> And the roles are changing too. Talk about the skill gap, this is a big talk track we hear at every event we go to and exec we talk to. The new brand of tech leaders have to address the skill gap because there's more job openings in jobs that don't have a degree requirement. Meaning, the job doesn't have a certificate or a diploma because it's new. Whether it's cyber security, or data science, new kinds of roles and the skill gaps there. Talk about that, that challenge, that opportunity. >> Yeah, well these new and emerging fields, AI, blockchain, cloud, or otherwise, you're right. A lot of those are new, and there are not well established four-year degrees around those kinds of professions. And so, IBM is very heavily involved in what we call the P Tech, or the Pathway to Technology Program, where people can have a successful career in technology without having a traditional four-year college degree. But more broadly, yeah, there is a gap. A gap between the demand and the supply for people in these fields, and so the best protection all of us have against obsolescence is continuous upscaling and education. And that happens organically if you're passionate about what you do, because you're eating, breathing and sleeping the area that you work in. >> Yeah, and sometimes learning on the job too is key, and getting content on the internet, people can self-learn and apply that. Talk about how your organization's structured for learning. How do you retain the best talent? What are some of the strategies you deploy to keep people motivated, keep them informed, and keep them engaged with a good assignment? >> Yeah, well that is a challenge in any large organization, and IBM is 350,000 plus people in 170 countries. And so the era of us being able to get everybody together in a town hall meeting is long gone. And so, how we communicate and get everybody on the same page around mission alignment, what is our strategy, and what skills do you need, and how do you stay informed and educated. That's an ongoing challenge. I think, ultimately, we try to attract people with our purpose as a company. It's an employer of purpose, the kinds of work IBM's involved in attracts people that are mission driven. And then, there is a tremendous focus on providing distance based self-paced learning, online learning, in person learning, badgen programs, the P Tech Program that I mentioned. And to make sure that a person who is motivated and wants to grow their skills, that they have all the vehicles to do that. But I think the other thing I spend a lot of time focused on is, does everybody in this organization have a good understanding of what our purpose as a company is, and how what they do contributes to that purpose, and can they map back really clearly I'm not just a widget in a machine doing something and I have no idea what the impact of it is. I see that what I'm doing contributes to our collective success. >> People want to work for a mission driven company, that's a new data point we've been seeing. >> Fletcher: Yes. >> Talk about the outcome of focus. You know, you hear digital transformation being kicked around, I think it's happening now more than ever, obviously been hyped up. But now you're starting to see companies really digging in. You guys are going through a digital transformation over many years. You supply technology for companies that are transforming digitally. The notion of business outcomes becomes a big part of that. How have you evolved your organization, from an outcome standpoint, that's new and different from the old ways? Can you give an example and talk about that? Old way of doing things and the new way of doing things. How do you talk about technology for business outcomes in a new way? >> Well, ultimately it's a business problem that you're solving. And so there has to be a business driver behind any project that we engage in. And having good discipline around... organizations tend to die of indigestion, not starvation, and getting really disciplined about what we say no to, in some cases is more important than what we agree to do. And it's much harder to stop work than it is to start work in a large organization. And so we've really leveraged Agile as a new way of working to say, "We have a well-defined methodology for "one funnel of work, that gets prioritized "in partnership with the business in a transparent way." where we say, "You submit this many units of demand, "we have this much unit of supply, let's go through "the story definitions, backlog grooming, "future presentations, retrospectives, the mechanics "of working in an Agile way, to be really disciplined "about everyone's on the same page about what "we are going to do and what we're not going to do." >> Yeah, that's a great point. We hear this all the time. Certainly, it's looking valid here, where I'm located. The notion of Agile, fail fast, the lean startup. You know, I never bought into the fail fast thing. No one wants to fail, but in the spirit of learning Agile, failure is a part of the process. So getting to yes is what people want to get to, but you can't say yes to everything. IT has failed in that area. You can't say yes to everything. So you got to say no. >> Yep. >> You got to also get to what you don't want to do. So knowing what is not the right way to go is where Agile kicks in. So Agile, you want to get to a fail point and know what not to do, at the same time you got to say no to all the requests that you possibly could do. >> Yes. >> Is kind of the formula. Talk about that dynamic. Because this is where Agile translates or DevOps translates into business. It's the same kind of concept applied to organizations, process, and people. >> Yeah, so I think in terms of how do we have good discipline around what we do and don't do. It's very important that people understand what their role in the company is and what their lane is and what their mission is. And if we say no to something, it's not an indictment that that piece of work is not valuable. It just may not be something that is aligned to our mission or something that we're supposed to do. And I think those things can get blurry if you don't have really well defined Agile frameworks and ways of working and everybody on the same page. And so all kinds of things can sound like a good idea potentially, but if it's ultimately not really what we're supposed to be doing, that's what creates friction, right? >> I'd love to get your thoughts just as a person in tech who's got a lot of responsibility in IBM. But you talk about IBM, from an IBM capacity or as a person, but we have a lot of conversations here in the Cube, from Netflix to IBM, to practitioners in the field around the role of data. [Fletcher] Mhmm. Everyone wants to be data driven, so there's no debate there. Data driven is a good approach to take on things. >> Fletcher: Yes. >> But how you look at data depends on what you're lookin' at. You can correlate data and you've got causation. So a lot of conversation's been around don't get too caught up in the data for data's sake. Because if you look at just correlation, you might not know what's causing something. So most data scientists love correlation because it's numbers, they're there, you can look at all those correlations, but not understand the cause of something. Can you talk about how you view this? Because this has become an important part of decision making with data. >> Yeah, for sure. And AI very closely related to having a good data and data governance and taxonomy strategy. To really be able to harness the insights from all that data, you got to have a good data governance strategy behind it. But behind every piece of data is a business process. And so ultimately, being able to really map back and understand which business processes are generating this data is sort of the methodology for trying to put your arms around all the massive amounts of data that are being collected. And I think our old strategy was, we'll have a data lake and we'll just dump everything into it. The advent of AI sort of requires a different data strategy and says we need to have a good governance process around this and have a data platform, not a data lake. That we can then build automation against, run AI against it, and be a business that makes better, more informed decisions based on that data, and then help our customers do the same thing. >> And this has certainly come up a lot in AI around bias and contextual relevance, I think it's a big part of what's behind the data. >> Yeah, right. And you need to have explainability and transparency into the recommendations that AI is making. You know, if it's a black box, that's an issue. If AI came back and told you, "I think you should make "your product more expensive." Your first question would be why? And if you can't answer that... And so, AI's autonomous driving is a good example of that. Where you put a human being in the seat and he or she drives the car, and the system compares the inputs that they would make versus what the human is doing, and can explain why they had variances. But if it's just a complete mystery, that's not going to work. >> Yeah, the contextual why is a great question. I want to get your thoughts on security. [Fletcher] Mhmm. But you had made a comment earlier around the general purpose, IT person is kind of a thing of the past. Meaning that specialism and or variety and diversity of skills are always going to be out there. >> Fletcher: Yeah. >> With security, no one company has the same security makeup. Because their posture and or their organization structures are different because their organization mission is different. No one company is the same. >> Right. >> It's kind of like we as individuals, our DNA, everyone's different. So that means that security's not always the same in every company. As the CIO of IBM, you guys are a large multi-national, you're obviously huge. >> Other companies might have different approaches. How do you see security playing out? Because in some cases, CIOs manage security, in some cases the CSO is bolted out separately. >> Fletcher: Right. >> Either way, we know security's a board issue, as is IT. What's your view on security and the role of security within an organization. >> Security's a huge focus for us, it consumes a large amount of my time. And as much as we worry about our data, we really worry about customer data. And the kinds of threats that we're seeing are evolving rapidly, and as an industry statement I would say the advantage continues to go to bad guys, not good guys. Red is easier than blue. And so this really becomes an exercise in do we understand our networks and the systems that underlie those networks better than the people who are trying to break into it? And in particular, some of the more Apex predator, advanced nation state activities. In terms of the organizational construct of CSO, and where it fits in the company, we've had different models. Where we're at today is that the CSO is a peer of mine, and we work very closely together. And the CSO really, for the most part, defines risk and understands what is the attack surface and threat profile of any particular area. And then anything operational falls to the IT department. And so, in our environment, you know IBM's 350,000 plus employees, the IT department that I lead is about 12,000 people. And so, we have to work very closely together on very different threat profiles of general back office workers, people building commercial software, researchers building quantum computers, people doing outsourced IT. All of them have very different security profiles, and we have to be able to meet those requirements for each of those segments. >> We could do a whole hour just on security, one of my favorite topics. But you guys do have large surface area. >> Fletcher: Yes. >> You got a large employee base, diverse virtual workforce and offices. >> Mhmm. >> You got applications. I mean this is a really complicated security framework you guys have. Well, not framework, but just in terms of challenge, opportunity. >> It's a large surface area, hopefully the framework is not complicated, but it does require vigilance and focus. And so as an example, I am a customer of IBM's Xforce and managed security services. IBM's a market leader in the security services business and they're my kind of perimeter defense on some of these things. But no, you're right. It's something that we can't take our focus off of. >> You know, I had a conversation recently with General Keith Alexander, formally the original commander of cyber command, now he's CEO of a startup, doing a private version of NSA. Signaling is huge in security. >> Fletcher: Yep. >> And I know one of your hobbies is to study kind of the general national security thing as a techie. >> Fletcher: Mhmm. >> The enterprises, they're private organizations. You know, the government's job is to protect IBM. But you guys have to protect yourselves. So you have a new world now where there's a private, public partnerships going on where signaling is super important. Where's the data coming, so real time, and sometimes systems can slow that down for the sake of protecting. But at the same time, you need real time. Not just for security, but in business. Retail, to users. So real time's become a big part of it. What's your thoughts on the notion of real time and security? >> It's huge. Our capacity to detect, respond, and remediate a threat in real time, or as near real time as we can, is the name of the game. You're exactly right, the partnership between governments and public sector and private sector, I think is evolving in a positive way. Where we're beginning to see, as an industry statement, more of these kind of advanced nation state type tactics even being used outside of governments. And so that requires a different kind of response. And then we've got to kind of move forward from an environment where things that are publicly available get enriched and analyzed in some way and then become classified and we can't have access to it. And so the kind of information sharing between companies and governments is really helpful in being able to detect threat on the internet in a real time way. And by the way, if you think we got threats now, when you get to AI and then eventually quantum, threat in the future is not going to be about getting you to click on a link in your email that you think is a legitimate email and install some piece of malware. It's going to be about injecting the minimum amount of data required to teach a system something incorrect or different. So you think of image classification in autonomous driving, with a very small piece of data you can teach it that a stop sign is a yield sign. And that's a fairly benign kind of use case, a simple one, but now imagine financial systems, healthcare systems. So that is leading to quantum resistance cryptography, which is how long do you need to retain data and then what is your encryption strategy around it. >> You know it's interesting. The cost of malware injection can be applied to anything with this. So, I got to ask you, 'cause you guys are leading a lot in quantum, Baba Giano and I have had many conversations. You guys got a great group over there, you got power, amazing stuff happening in quantum. Quantum does change security. What specifically should people know about when they hear quantum. Good for security? Potentially harmful for security? It's an opportunity in both ways. You have a quantum computer, you can crack things much faster. The notion of passwords pretty much goes away. So I need multi-factorial authentication. I mean the whole world's changing with quantum. What's your view? >> Well, like all technology, it can be leveraged for good or less good, and it's a reflection of what the human beings who are using that technology intend to do with it. At IBM, we are working on both sides of that issue. We are developing quantum computers, and then on the other side of it developing encryption methodologies that are quantum resistant or quantum proof. So things like lattice cryptography, where you can mathematically prove you can hide keys in N number of layers such that even a quantum computer can't decrypt it. And so then, how long do you really need to keep that data? If it's two or three years, maybe quantum resistant cryptography is less of an issue for you. If you are the social security administration and you got to keep data for the next 50 years, you got to start investing now in what does the quantum future look like and what are the implications to me from a data and encryption perspective? >> Quantam's super exciting. Fletcher, thanks for coming on and sharing your insight, final question for you. As a person in the tech industry, you've had a chance to see the waves, you got a big one coming up from quantum cloud to AI. What are you most excited about? What should people be paying attention to? In terms of the macro trends. Not necessarily just IBM, just your personal view. To be a new brand of tech leader, what are some of the things that people should pay attention to? And what are you excited about? >> Well, what I'm excited about is what all of this technology is going to bring to bear on our lives. I mean, autonomous driving is going to be life changing for people. The insights that AI will drive. And think about how much time all of us spend doing menial, non-value added tasks at work and in our personal lives. And those things we won't have to worry about as much, with RPA and AI and all kinds of technologies. And I think that will free us to be more creative and be more fulfilled, and I feel very optimistic about the future. In terms of the second part of your question, what advice would I have for tech leaders, I think it's do what you're passionate about. I spend a lot of time focused on trying to create an environment where I think talented people want to work, and that means understanding our purpose, communicating that purpose well. And as I say, kind, passionate about what you do, and believe in the company's purpose. >> Yeah, that's interesting. You mentioned tech for good is always an underbelly in every new trend. And if you look at what happened with, say Facebook, I mean we were talking in 2012 around how data could be weaponized. That was years before so called election or other things meddling. >> Fletcher: Yeah. >> I think there's a community obligation, from sharing data for security risks to seeing the good as a vision, but also identifying bad actors that are going to weaponize the good first. Right? You always have those kind of early adopters. Might not be the best characters. So there's kind of a community has to come together and be faster to identify those. >> Yeah, I do think all of us as leaders have an obligation to understand that risk, and then make decisions around, we as the designers of these systems have to make sure that we're engineering them with fairness and without bias. And then, are the people that we're consuming technology from, are the people creating that technology, are their business models compatible with people who are consuming that technology? And making decisions around who is an ethical, trustworthy partner that I want to be in business with to develop the future. >> Fletcher, thanks for coming on. CIO of IBM here inside theCube, as part of this special program, new brand of tech leaders. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From the Amazon Meeting Center in downtown Seattle, it's theCUBE. Covering Imagine A Better World. A global education conference sponsored by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown Seattle at the AWS Imagine Educate Show. It's a public sector show. It's the first time they've ever done it really focusing just on education as opposed to the regular public sector show or the AWS Summits and re:Invent that you're very familiar with. We're excited to be here. One of the big themes here is colleges partnering with high schools. And we're excited to have our next guest really talk about how that's working in this program. We have Howard Stahl. He's a professor at Santa Monica College. Howard, great to see you. >> Thank you. >> And with him is Koda Kol. He's a teacher at Roosevelt High in East L.A. and also an adjunct professor at Santa Monica College. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> So, let's just jump into it. There's a big conversation about training people for the next generation of cloud skills. It's good for the kids, it's also good for the employers, it's good for Amazon, it's good for their customers and their partners. How are the kids feeling about this? How is this program being accepted by kids? Is it cool, is it something they want to do? How hard of a sell is it? >> The students are engaged. They're learning something that is immediately relevant to societal's demand. Our students, they're setting up, spinning up web servers, file servers, even VPN, and the VPN servers is going to disrupt the way schools strategize and implement security, because now when they go back to the high schools they're bypassing all these web securities using VPN. >> Right. >> But they really do love it. The students seem to really drink it up. >> They get it. >> Yeah, they do. >> So is there a particular classification of app or of all the different things that you're teaching 'em, database, security, this or that, that resonates more than others or what is it that connects to what they do every day that makes them think, "Hey, this is cool, I engage "these things every day. "What a great career to get into." >> Yeah, I think, they see Amazon in their daily life every day. Delivering them stuff, making them buy stuff, having them deliver things. And they can see as they peel apart the layers and see behind the scenes how Amazon actually gets that done. >> Right. >> And it seems immediately relevant to them. >> Right. >> And so the student interest has been fantastic. >> Been fantastic. And Koda too, I think it's always the thing too with, especially the kids when they're in high school, 15, 16 right, they're starting to get a little bit of attitude. "Why should I read 400-year English novels Dad, "how's that going to help me in my job?" or "Why am I taking chemistry, I don't want to be a doctor? "I get it I got to take it to get into college "but I don't really want to take Chemistry." This is probably something a little bit different in terms of direct visibility into the application. I mean, those other things have applications too, you just don't see it when you're 15. But this they can see, right? They can see how it's going to directly impact them in a positive way. >> Yes, and it also puts everyone at the same playing field. Students that normally fail their English classes, Math classes, now they're in the same classroom and learning content where everyone is on the same page. So, you got your high performing students also with your students that are failing a class, trying to discover what they want to do in life. >> Right. >> They're together, they're working together. Find a common interest and excelling, engaged and asking for more. "Where can we take more classes? "This is what I want to do, "this is where I want to be." >> That's great. Another thing, we were just at a high school competition called Technovation earlier this week where mainly girl's teams from all over the world building applications. Same kind of a thing. Get 'em involved in an application that they can really see a difference and they get it. And I wonder if some of your kids talk about, everybody wants to be mission driven today, and kids want to do stuff that has a higher impact on society, right? We've got four different garbage cans we have to sort our stuff in 'cause we want to be renewable and take care of the environment. Do they see that software is the easiest way to make a huge impact globally, do they get that? >> They get that, they see it. They're instantly creating servers in 5-10 minutes. Going on their servers, setting up websites. They see the relevance. They're taking advantage of the technology. >> Yeah, that's great. So Howard, I wonder if you could speak a little bit about how a partnership with AWS enables you to do things that you wouldn't be able to do if they weren't helping in this whole process? >> At SMC we've been working with AWS for about four years now to spin up this program. The partnership has been fantastic. AWS has been really giving and helpful. They helped train faculty. So we got professional development from them. Now, as part of this program students get credits on the platforms. Faculty get credits on the platform. They've been helping us with advertising and all kinds of other great things and it's really been a wonderful, wonderful partnership, really fantastic. And that industry connection really makes a big difference in making the program succeed. >> You mentioned something I want to follow up on in terms of the staff. We talk a lot about the kids here and the impact on the kids and their education, but I'm curious to get your take on how this has impacted the staff. This new classification of learning if you will, around cloud computing specifically. This subset of computer science which has had a hard time squeezing in between science and math, especially at the high school level. But how are the staff, the teachers taking to this? Do they see this as a great new opportunity? A bunch of new skills to learn? That's got to be kind of invigorating for them, I imagine as well. >> I think so. I think it's really invigorated people who've been around. It keeps us on our toes, makes us learn new things. It's very exciting for many of us and it has been great. And the wonderful thing about computer science is that it changes a lot. As I often say in math, "They haven't invented any new numbers." But in computer science, what I learned when I was in school. Oh my gosh, things have changed a great deal. And so there's a commitment to keep current. And in the community colleges definitely we try to keep our curriculum current with what industry needs. >> Right, I think it's a really great statement on the role of community colleges, in a very specific role to help match skills with needs in jobs. I mean just really concrete, really straightforward, really kind of a simple mission. >> Yeah, and Amazon actually has connected us with local employers near SMC that have helped us validate our curriculum and actually are very interested in hiring the graduates out of our program right away, 'cause there is such a dearth of industry talent in this particular field. >> Which is great, just to close that loop, right. And if I recall, your certificate program is the model now that's been rolled out to all 19 of the L.A. community colleges. >> Yeah, so this program has really spun up, and become much, much bigger than just one particular college. So we developed a number of classes at SMC and a certificate, and we're using that now as a model throughout L.A. county to bootstrap AWS skills in all the local community colleges. 19 other colleges are working with us. >> Right, right. Agreeing to run the same classes at their institutions. And that's very exciting as well. They've also agreed to find local partner high schools to work with as well. So we're really trying to build a hub of AWS experience down in L.A. in what we call "Silicon Beach". >> Right, right. And then the goal ultimately is to get an associate program, right, over some period of time when you get whatever the certification is, or that process. >> Yeah, so we're working on building an AA Degree in cloud computing as well. >> That's great. Koda, you look like you had something to jump in there. All good? >> All good. >> Okay, good. So I want to give you the last word in terms of what would you say to educators that are not in L.A. about what this type of program has brought to you, and more importantly your students in your everyday life at Roosevelt High? >> It has changed the lives of many students. It's changed my perspective on how I see education because in fact it was a little difficult getting the students to be engaged initially, but ever since we launched this cloud computing every student, we can't get enough classes, sections, open. We open one section up and it gets filled. The students are in class. They want to learn the material. It's a good time to be in education. I love it. >> Well good. Well thanks for sharing the passion, it comes through. >> Well the passion starts with our department chair, Howard Stahl here. He's very passionate and it resonates with all the staff members, which resonates with the students. So now we have the synergy that's happening that we hope to eventually distribute to all the other campuses, and make a model. Use Santa Monica as a model. >> Great. Well Koda, Howard, thanks for taking a few minutes. And, really enjoy this story. I look forward to the follow up next year. >> Thank you. >> Alright he's Koda, he's Howard, I'm Jeff! You're watching theCUBE from downtown Seattle at AWS Imagine Education. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)