(upbeat music) (logo crystals tingle) >> Hi, everybody, welcome back to FalCon22, I'm Dave Vellante and you're watching theCube's continuous coverage, this is day two. We live in an API economy, but APIs, you know, they're sometimes vulnerable, Michael Nicosia is here, he's the Chief Operating Officer and co-founder of Salt Security, API Security Specialist, Michael, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, Dave, glad to be here. >> You're very welcome. Why did you and your co-founder, is it Roy? >> Yeah. >> Why did you guys start Salt Security? >> So really easy, I mean, as you mentioned, the proliferation of APIs constantly is growing on a year to year basis. So in 2015, when he and I met, we had this idea that it was going to continue to grow and APIs were going to be critical to every organization from an innovation perspective, from a safety perspective and we thought that current tools out there couldn't protect against the new threat vector that we thought was going to happen. And, you know, you fast forward to 2022 and here we are, it's the largest growing threat vector from an API perspective because APIs are just growing like crazy. >> Right. Well, let's talk about the news, CrowdStrike made an investment in your company. >> Michael: Yes. >> Congratulations. >> Michael: Thank you. >> Tell us about that, why it's important, and to have a strategic partner like that. >> Yeah, so first of all, we're super thrilled about the partnership, I mean, it's amazing. And not only the partnership, the strategic investment for us just signifies the importance of our two companies in terms of what we want to do in the field together or in the market together. So the strategic investment is amazing, the partnership is even more amazing just because it's kind of like, you know, the first in its class from an API security perspective, we've got partners from the cloud providers and then the only other partnerships really have is with API Management vendors. So this is unique in that it goes outside the security ecosystem to provide this partnership and the nice thing about it is it's exclusive, excuse me, and it just continues to validate the leadership where we have an API security, as well as obviously a leadership that CrowdStrike has. >> Exclusive in the sense that CrowdStrike's not going to invest in another API competitor and you're not going to take investment from an endpoint- >> Michael: Exactly. >> Or something like that. >> Endpoint or, you know, really cloud workload situation. >> Anything within that vastly expanding portfolio. >> Michael: Exactly. >> So pretty much anybody. >> Michael: Exactly. >> Except network security, from what I saw in the keynote yesterday, that's sort of on the table, for now. So, okay, so why should customers care about this? What's the benefit to them? >> Yeah, so if you think about, the security profile of organizations and where they seem to have potential risk, threat vectors, you know, endpoint, you know, Cloud obviously API becomes a bigger, threat vector as well. So I think the partnership just solidifies the fact that we want to create a better security profile for organizations and we want to make it safe for them to innovate and continue to do what they do. So I think that's the importance and when you put the two together it just creates a larger value proposition, more stickiness from end point to cloud, to APIs. >> So we have a partner, theCUBE, and in New York city and it's called ETR and they do quarterly surveys of CISOs, CIOs, IT buyers, about 12 to 1500 a quarter. And so I was chatting with those guys last week, they knew we were going to be at CrowdStrike and so they ran some data for all the API security vendors and you guys were, you know they had like the Gartner Magic Quadrant but it's not, you know, vision and execution, it's spending momentum and like presence in their survey, it's like market share, mind share. >> Sure. >> You guys were up and to the right, like, way, way, way ahead, I presume that's why you got the attention of CrowdStrike. I found their data set to be incredibly good, that's how we found CrowdStrike years ago, like, "Wow, who's this company?" >> Yeah. >> You know, companies like CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, Snowflake Off The Charts, but you guys were really noticeable. Talk about the spending momentum you're seeing with customers, where's that coming from? >> Yeah, I mean look, for us it's a continuing growing market, it's accelerating and we're still in the, you know, early stages of the market, which is amazing. But if you think about what organizations do, they innovate, right, they innovate through, you know, software, through applications or APIs. So if you think about, you know, how do they continue to innovate safely? They need a solution, like Salt Security to protect from any bad actors that could potentially create any breaches, vulnerabilities. So I think that that's why CISOs in particular are super excited about talking to us, making sure that they have all of their bases covered especially when it comes to applications that they have within their organization, which continues to grow. >> And not to not to be a methodology geek, but the methodology they use is to essentially say, is a customer spending more or less, they subtract the lesses from the mores and that's what you're left with. And one of the lesses is churn, and if you have high churn, you're spending momentum, >> you know- >> Micheal: Yeah. >> In their methodology goes into the tank. So you have obviously admitted you have very low churn is that what you're saying in the field? >> Micheal: Absolutely. >> Why is that? >> Yeah, I mean, again, I think it's, it goes back to the value that we bring to customers. I think, you know, our solution works, we're the only AI/ML-based solution with deep context so we can really take a closer granular look at the APIs, model those APIs, create a baseline and really protect against them. So I mean, our solution works and it works really well and I think we provide value in that, you know, CISOs don't have to worry about any bad actors trying to infiltrate their applications 'cause they know that Salt Security is there protecting them. >> I know you're not the tech guy but you're the founder, co-founder of a technology company so you got to be conversant in the tech, 'cause this is the way it is in our business, so tell us about the tech, what's so cool about it? What's the differentiation? >> Yeah, I guess, and I mentioned that it's really AI/ML based, you know, we leverage big data and it's really the context associated to that, which means that, you know, we can get into granular details of really baselining the API itself. And what we do really well is, because these are unique attacks and these attacks could be days, weeks, months and we're the only vendor that, that can really correlate across that timeline because of the context-based big data that we leverage to be able to, you know, spot these potential bad actors that we look for. >> And all this happens in the cloud or? >> Absolutely, it's all... >> You have a server in your office? >> No, no, it's all it's a hundred percent SaaS-based, Cloud-based solution, I think that's one of the reasons why the partnership with CrowdStrike is so amazing as well. >> Talk a little bit more about the synergies between CrowdStrike and Salt Security. >> Tons of synergies, I mean, if you think about from, you know, from the part of being a little fluffy culture, the two companies have similar cultures, we go after similar you know, first Cloud, innovative companies. If you think about kind of the technology that CrowdStrike has put forth, revolutionized the endpoint security, and now moving into the Cloud, you know, leveraging AI and ML, we're doing the exact same thing so I think there's a lot of synergies associated with that. And again, the final point that I'll make is that you know, we think together the, you know, better together story is, resonates just because if you think about all of the areas that you know have potential breaches, these threats, we kind of cover 'em all with the partnership. >> When I talk to a founding, you know, co-founder, who's a go to market pro, I like to ask them how did you know when to scale? I mean, you got to have product market fit, I see so many companies failing because they try to go to market before they have, they try to scale go to market before they have product market, but how did you do it? How did you know when to scale? >> You know, it's tricky, and you got to look at a couple of, you know, factors, you got to look at the market, you got to look at, you know, how much potential opportunity exists and you really need to look at, the momentum that is being established. You know, when you talk to CISOs, kind of, you know, talking to them about projects and how, how they prioritize projects and where API security fits, you know, once it begins to be the top three and you start that momentum and obviously you bringing in the revenue. I think that those are signs that we see, that we say, "Okay, we need to double down on making sure we've got coverage across the world in order for us to support demand." >> And you were the first sales rep, right? >> Michael: Yeah. >> Okay. >> Roy and I, I was the first AE, here was the first SE. >> Okay, but your early go-to market pros are probably different than what you're bringing in today, you didn't have, you know, a lot of BDRs at the time, but you guys were hands on consultants- >> Absolutely. >> Like sort of process consultants, sales folks, right? And then you codify that when you're ready to scale and now you're, is that kind of a, what you're doing? >> Absolutely, I mean, you nailed it, I mean, it's in the early stages, it's validating that there's a problem that exists in the market and how important is that problem, you know, to CISOs. So when we first started we met probably about 50 CISOs where we just had that conversation, not about sales, it was more about, "Hey we just want to talk to you about a problem we think exists in the market, love to get your reaction on that problem and then obviously how you're solving that problem and how much of a priority is that problem," How important is it to you? And then once you have those discussions then you can really find those individuals, early adopters if you will, that are ready to buy and then it kind of proliferates from there. >> And then you have a CRO , I presume, right? So what was that like finding him or her, is a really important first sales hire. >> Super important, yeah. >> How did you go about that? How long did it take? >> Yeah so it took about six to eight months and you know it's really tough because, you know, we look at cultural fit, above everything else. So it's not, that, "Can they do the job?" it's culturally, do they fit in? And you know, how much can that individual scale the organization? So there's a lot of factors associated, there's a lot of individuals associated to, you know with the interview process. So that's how we looked at it and obviously we wanted somebody that had experience in a company our size, was able to scale it and so on. The one tricky thing is, and I'll tell you this, is, you know, for Roy and I, you kind of have to let go a little bit, that was really tough, so knowing that you need to do that is something that- >> A little bit of founderitis? >> Micheal: Yeah. >> Dave: It's hard, right? >> Micheal: It's hard. >> Dave: Yeah, it's your baby. >> It's like, whaat? >> I get it, Michael, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, congratulations on the news- >> Thank you Dave. >> The investment and good luck. >> Awesome, thank you so much, appreciate it. >> You're really welcome. All right, keep it right there, we'll be back right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE at FalCon22, CrowdStrike's big user event, we'll be right back. (cheerful bouncy music)

>>Hi, this is Dave Volonte. We're winding down Day two of the Cubes coverage of Vim on 2022. We're here at the area in Las Vegas. Myself and Dave Nicholson had been going for two days. Everybody's excited about the VM on party tonight. It's It's always epic, and, uh, it's a great show in terms of its energy. Danny Allen is here. He's cto of in his back. He gave the keynote this morning. I say, Danny, you know, you look pretty good up there with two hours of sleep. I >>had three. >>Look, don't look that good, but your energy was very high. And I got to tell you the story you told was amazing. It was one of the best keynotes I've ever seen. Even even the technology pieces were outstanding. But you weaving in that story was incredible. I'm hoping that people will go back and and watch it. We probably don't have time to go into it, but wow. Um, can you give us the the one minute version of that >>long story? >>Sure. Yeah. I read a book back in 2013 about a ship that sank off Portsmouth, Maine, and I >>thought, I'm gonna go find that >>ship. And so it's a long, >>complicated process. Five >>years in the making. But we used data, and the data that found the ship was actually from 15 years earlier. >>And in 20 >>18, we found the bow of the ship. We found the stern of the ship, but what we were really trying to answer was torpedoed. Or did the boilers explode? Because >>the navy said the boilers exploded >>and two survivors said, No, it was torpedoed or there was a German U boat there. >>And so >>our goal was fine. The ship find the boiler. >>So in 20 >>19, Sorry, Uh, it was 2018. We found the bow and the stern. And then in 2019, we found both boilers perfectly intact. And in fact, the rear end of that torpedo wasn't much left >>of it, of course, but >>data found that wreck. And so it, um, it exonerated essentially any implication that somebody screwed >>up in >>the boiler system and the survivors or the Children of the survivors obviously appreciated >>that. I'm sure. Yes, Several >>outcomes to it. So the >>chief engineer was one >>of the 13 survivors, >>and he lived with the weight of this for 75 years. 49 sailors dead because of myself. But I had the opportunity of meeting some of the Children of the victims and also attending ceremonies. The families of those victims received purple hearts because they were killed due to enemy action. And then you actually knew how to do this. I wasn't aware you had experience finding Rex. You've >>discovered several of >>them prior to this one. But >>the interesting connection >>the reason why this keynote was so powerful as we're a >>team, it's a data conference. >>You connected that to data because you you went out and bought a How do you say this? Magnanimous magnetometer. Magnetometer, Magnetometer. I don't know what that >>is. And a side >>scan Sonar, Right? I got that right. That was >>easy. But >>then you know what this stuff is. And then you >>built the model >>tensorflow. You took all the data and you found anomalies. And then you went right to that spot. Found the >>wreck with 12 >>£1000 of dynamite, >>which made your heart >>beat. But >>then you found >>the boilers. That's incredible. And >>but the point was, >>this is data >>uh, let's see, >>a lot of years after, >>right? >>Yeah. Two sets of data were used. One was the original set of side scan sonar >>data by the historian >>who discovered there was a U boat in the area that was 15 years old. >>And then we used, of >>course, the wind and weather and wave pattern data that was 75 years old to figure out where the boiler should be because they knew that the ship had continued to float for eight minutes. And so you had to go back and determine the models of where should the boilers >>be if it exploded and the boilers >>dropped out and it floated along >>for eight minutes and then sank? Where was >>that data? >>It was was a scanned was an electronic was a paper. How did you get that data? So the original side scan sonar data was just hard >>drive >>data by the historian. >>I wish I could say he used them to >>back it up. But I don't know that I can say that. But he still had >>the data. 15 years later, the >>weather and >>wind and wave data, That was all public information, and we actually used that extensively. We find other wrecks. A lot of wrecks off Boston Sunken World War Two. So we were We were used to that model of tracking what happened. Wow. So, yes, imagine if that data weren't available >>and it >>probably shouldn't have been right by all rights. So now fast forward to 2022. We've got Let's talk about just a cloud >>data. I think you said a >>couple of 100 >>petabytes in the >>cloud 2019. 500 in, Uh, >>no. Yeah. In >>20 2200 and 42. Petabytes in 20 2500 Petabytes last year. And we've already done the same as 2020. So >>240 petabytes >>in Q one. I expect >>this year to move an exhibit of >>data into the public cloud. >>Okay, so you got all that data. Who knows what's in there, right? And if it's not protected, who's going to know in 50 60 7100 years? Right. So that was your tie in? Yes. To the to the importance of data protection, which was just really, really well done. Congratulations. Honestly, one of the best keynotes I've ever seen keynotes often really boring, But you did a great job again on two hours. Sleep. So much to unpack here. The other thing that really is. I mean, we can talk about the demos. We can talk about the announcements. Um, so? Well, yeah, Let's see. Salesforce. Uh, data protection is now public. I almost spilled the beans yesterday in the cube. Caught myself the version 12. Obviously, you guys gave a great demo showing the island >>cloud with I think it >>was just four minutes. It was super fast. Recovery in four minutes of data loss was so glad you didn't say zero minutes because that would have been a live demos which, Okay, which I appreciate and also think is crazy. So some really cool demos, Um, and some really cool features. So I have so much impact, but the the insights that you can provide through them it's VM one, uh, was actually something that I hadn't heard you talk about extensively in the past. That maybe I just missed it. But I wonder if you could talk about that layer and why it's critical differentiator for Wien. It's >>the hidden gem >>within the Wien portfolio because it knows about absolutely >>everything. >>And what determines the actions >>that we take is the >>context in which >>data is surviving. So in the context of security, which we are showing, we look for CPU utilisation, memory utilisation, data change rate. If you encrypt all of the data in a file server, it's going to blow up overnight. And so we're leveraging heuristics in their reporting. But even more than that, one of the things in Wien one people don't realise we have this concept of the intelligent diagnostics. It's machine learning, which we drive on our end and we push out as packages intervene one. There's up to 200 signatures, but it helps our customers find issues before they become issues. Okay, so I want to get into because I often time times, don't geek out with you. And don't take advantage of your your technical knowledge. And you've you've triggered a couple of things, >>especially when the >>analysts call you said it again today that >>modern >>data protection has meaning to you. We talked a little bit about this yesterday, but back in >>the days of >>virtualisation, you shunned agents >>and took a different >>approach because you were going for what was then >>modern. Then you >>went to bare metal cloud hybrid >>cloud containers. Super Cloud. Using the analyst meeting. You didn't use the table. Come on, say Super Cloud and then we'll talk about the edge. So I would like to know specifically if we can go back to Virtualised >>because I didn't know >>this exactly how you guys >>defined modern >>back then >>and then. Let's take that to modern today. >>So what do you >>do back then? And then we'll get into cloud and sure, So if you go back to and being started, everyone who's using agents, you'd instal something in the operating system. It would take 10% 15% of your CPU because it was collecting all the data and sending it outside of the machine when we went through a virtual environment. If you put an agent inside that machine, what happens is you would have 100 operating systems all on the same >>server, consuming >>resources from that hyper visor. And so he said, there's a better way of capturing the data instead of capturing the data inside the operating system. And by the way, managing thousands of agents is no fun. So What we did is we captured a snapshot of the image at the hyper visor level. And then over time, we just leverage changed block >>tracking from the hyper >>visor to determine what >>had changed. And so that was modern. Because no more >>managing agents >>there was no impact >>on the operating system, >>and it was a far more >>efficient way to store >>data. You leverage CBT through the A P. Is that correct? Yeah. We used the VCR API >>for data protection. >>Okay, so I said this to Michael earlier. Fast forward to today. Your your your data protection competitors aren't as fat, dumb and happy as they used to be, so they can do things in containers, containers. And we talked about that. So now let's talk about Cloud. What's different about cloud data protection? What defines modern data protection? And where are the innovations that you're providing? >>Let me do one step in >>between those because one of the things that happened between hypervisors and Cloud was >>offline. The capture of the data >>to the storage system because >>even better than doing it >>at the hyper visor clusters >>do it on the storage >>array because that can capture the >>data instantly. Right? So as we go to the cloud, we want to do the same thing. Except we don't have access to either the hyper visor or the storage system. But what they do provide is an API. So we can use the API to capture all of the blocks, all of the data, all of the changes on that particular operating system. Now, here's where we've kind of gone full circle on a hyper >>visor. You can use the V >>sphere agent to reach into the operating system to do >>things like application consistency. What we've done modern data protection is create specific cloud agents that say Forget >>about the block changes. Make sure that I have application consistency inside that cloud operating >>system. Even though you don't have access to the hyper visor of the storage, >>you're still getting the >>operating system consistency >>while getting the really >>fast capture of data. So that gets into you talking on stage about how synapse don't equal data protection. I think you just explained it, but explain why, but let me highlight something that VM does that is important. We manage both snapshots and back up because if you can recover from your storage array >>snapshot. That is the best >>possible thing to recover from right, But we don't. So we manage both the snapshots and we converted >>into the VM portable >>data format. And here's where the super cloud comes into play because if I can convert it into the VM portable data format, I can move >>that OS >>anywhere. I can move it from >>physical to virtual to cloud >>to another cloud back to virtual. I can put it back on physical if I want to. It actually abstracts >>the cloud >>layer. There are things >>that we do when we go >>between clouds. Some use bio, >>some use, um, fee. >>But we have the data in backup format, not snapshot format. That's theirs. But we have been in backup format that we can move >>around and abstract >>workloads across. All of the infrastructure in your >>catalogue is control >>of that. Is that Is >>that right? That is about >>that 100%. And you know what's interesting about our catalogue? Dave. The catalogue is inside the backup, and so historically, one of the problems with backup is that you had a separate catalogue and if it ever got corrupted. All of your >>data is meaningless >>because the catalogue is inside >>the backup >>for that unique VM or that unique instance, you can move it anywhere and power it on. That's why people said were >>so reliable. As long >>as you have the backup file, you can delete our >>software. You can >>still get the data back, so I love this fast paced so that >>enables >>what I call Super Cloud we now call Super Cloud >>because now >>take that to the edge. >>If I want to go to the edge, I presume you can extend that. And I also presume the containers play a role there. Yes, so here's what's interesting about the edge to things on the edge. You don't want to have any state if you can help it, >>and so >>containers help with that. You can have stateless environment, some >>persistent data storage, >>but we not only >>provide the portability >>in operating systems. We also do this for containers, >>and that's >>true if you go to the cloud and you're using SE CKs >>with relational >>database service is already >>asked for the persistent data. >>Later, we can pick that up and move it to G K E or move it to open shift >>on premises. And >>so that's why I call this the super cloud. We have all of this data. Actually, I think you termed the term super thank you for I'm looking for confirmation from a technologist that it's technically feasible. It >>is technically feasible, >>and you can do it today and that's a I think it's a winning strategy. Personally, Will there be >>such a thing as edge Native? You know, there's cloud native. Will there be edge native new architectures, new ways of doing things, new workloads use cases? We talk about hardware, new hardware, architectures, arm based stuff that are going to change everything to edge Native Yes and no. There's going to be small tweaks that make it better for the edge. You're gonna see a lot of iron at the edge, obviously for power consumption purposes, and you're also going to see different constructs for networking. We're not going to use the traditional networking, probably a lot more software to find stuff. Same thing on the storage. They're going to try and >>minimise the persistent >>storage to the smallest footprint possible. But ultimately I think we're gonna see containers >>will lead >>the edge. We're seeing this now. We have a I probably can't name them, but we have a large retail organisation that is running containers in every single store with a small, persistent footprint of the point of sale and local data, but that what >>is running the actual >>system is containers, and it's completely ephemeral. So we were >>at Red Hat, I was saying >>earlier last week, and I'd say half 40 50% of the conversation was edge open shift, obviously >>playing a big role there. I >>know doing work with Rancher and Town Zoo. And so there's a lot of options there. >>But obviously, open shift has >>strong momentum in the >>marketplace. >>I've been dominating. You want to chime in? No, I'm just No, >>I yeah, I know. Sometimes >>I'll sit here like a sponge, which isn't my job absorbing stuff. I'm just fascinated by the whole concept of of a >>of a portable format for data that encapsulates virtual machines and or instances that can live in the containerised world. And once you once you create that common denominator, that's really that's >>That's the secret sauce >>for what you're talking about is a super club and what's been fascinating to watch because I've been paying attention since the beginning. You go from simply V. M. F s and here it is. And by the way, the pitch to E. M. C. About buying VM ware. It was all about reducing servers to files that can be stored on storage arrays. All of a sudden, the light bulbs went off. We can store those things, and it just began. It became it became a marriage afterwards. But to watch that progression that you guys have gone from from that fundamental to all of the other areas where now you've created this common denominator layer has has been amazing. So my question is, What's the singer? What doesn't work? Where the holes. You don't want to look at it from a from a glass half empty perspective. What's the next opportunity? We've talked about edge, but what are the things that you need to fill in to make this truly ubiquitous? Well, there's a lot of services out there that we're not protecting. To be fair, right, we do. Microsoft 3 65. We announced sales for us, but there's a dozen other paths services that >>people are moving data >>into. And until >>we had data protection >>for the assassin path services, you know >>you have to figure out how >>to protect them. Now here's the kicker about >>those services. >>Most of them have the >>ability to dump date >>out. The trick is, do they have the A >>P? I is needed to put data >>back into it right, >>which is which is a >>gap. As an industry, we need to address this. I actually think we need a common >>framework for >>how to manage the >>export of data, but also the import of data not at a at a system level, but at an atomic level of the elements within those applications. >>So there are gaps >>there at the industry, but we'll fill them >>if you look on the >>infrastructure side. We've done a lot with containers and kubernetes. I think there's a next wave around server list. There's still servers and these micro services, but we're making things smaller and smaller and smaller, and there's going to be an essential need to protect those services as well. So modern data protection is something that's going to we're gonna need modern data protection five years from now, the modern will just be different. Do you ever see the day, Danny, where governance becomes an >>adjacency opportunity for >>you guys? It's clearly an opportunity even now if you look, we spent a lot of time talking about security and what you find is when organisations go, for example, of ransomware insurance or for compliance, they need to be able to prove that they have certifications or they have security or they have governance. We just saw transatlantic privacy >>packed only >>to be able to prove what type of data they're collecting. Where are they storing it? Where are they allowed to recovered? And yes, those are very much adjacency is for our customers. They're trying to manage that data. >>So given that I mean, >>am I correct that architecturally you are, are you location agnostic? Right. We are a location agnostic, and you can actually tag data to allowable location. So the big trend that I think is happening is going to happen in in this >>this this decade. >>I think we're >>scratching the surface. Is this idea >>that, you know, leave data where it is, >>whether it's an S three >>bucket, it could be in an Oracle >>database. It could be in a snowflake database. It can be a data lake that's, you know, data, >>bricks or whatever, >>and it stays where >>it is. And it's just a note on the on the call of the data >>mesh. Not my term. Jim >>Octagon coined that term. The >>problem with that, and it puts data in the hands of closer to the domain experts. The problem with that >>scenario >>is you need self service infrastructure, which really doesn't exist today anyway. But it's coming, and the big problem is Federated >>computational >>governance. How do I automate that governance so that the people who should have access to that it can have access to that data? That, to me, seems to be an adjacency. It doesn't exist except in >>a proprietary >>platform. Today. There needs to be a horizontal >>layer >>that is more open than anybody >>can use. And I >>would think that's a perfect opportunity for you guys. Just strategically it is. There's no question, and I would argue, Dave, that it's actually >>valuable to take snapshots and to keep the data out at the edge wherever it happens to be collected. But then Federated centrally. It's why I get so excited by an exhibit of data this year going into the cloud, because then you're centralising the aggregation, and that's where you're really going to drive the insights. You're not gonna be writing tensorflow and machine learning and things on premises unless you have a lot of money and a lot of GPS and a lot of capacity. That's the type of thing that is actually better suited for the cloud. And, I would argue, better suited for not your organisation. You're gonna want to delegate that to a third party who has expertise in privacy, data analysis or security forensics or whatever it is that you're trying to do with the data. But you're gonna today when you think about AI. We talked about A. I haven't had a tonne of talk about AI some >>appropriate >>amount. Most of the >>AI today correct me if you think >>this is not true is modelling that's done in the cloud. It's dominant. >>Don't >>you think that's gonna flip when edge >>really starts to take >>off where it's it's more real time >>influencing >>at the edge in new use cases at the edge now how much of that data >>is going to be >>persisted is a >>point of discussion. But what >>are your thoughts on that? I completely agree. So my expectation of the way >>that this will work is that >>the true machine learning will happen in the centralised location, and what it will do is similar to someone will push out to the edge the signatures that drive the inferences. So my example of this is always the Tesla driving down the road. >>There's no way that that >>car should be figuring it sending up to the cloud. Is that a stop sign? Is it not? It can't. It has to be able to figure out what the stop sign is before it gets to it, so we'll do the influencing at the edge. But when it doesn't know what to do with the data, then it should send it to the court to determine, to learn about it and send signatures back out, not just to that edge location, but all the edge locations within the within the ecosystem. So I get what you're saying. They might >>send data back >>when there's an anomaly, >>or I always use the example of a deer running in front of the car. David Floyd gave me that one. That's when I want to. I do want to send the data back to the cloud because Tesla doesn't persist. A tonne of data, I presume, right, right less than 5% of it. You know, I want to. Usually I'm here to dive into the weeds. I want kind of uplevel this >>to sort of the >>larger picture. From an I T perspective. >>There's been a lot of consolidation going on if you divide the >>world into vendors >>and customers. On the customer side, there are only if there's a finite number of seats at the table for truly strategic partners. Those get gobbled up often by hyper >>scale cloud >>providers. The challenge there, and I'm part of a CEO accreditation programme. So this >>is aimed at my students who >>are CEOs and CIOs. The challenge is that a lot of CEOs and CIOs on the customer side don't exhaustively drag out of their vendor partners like a theme everything that Saveem >>can do for >>them. Maybe they're leveraging a point >>solution, >>but I guarantee you they don't all know that you've got cast in in the portfolio. Not every one of them does yet, let alone this idea of a super >>cloud and and and >>how much of a strategic role you can play. So I don't know if it's a blanket admonition to folks out there, but you have got to leverage the people who are building the solutions that are going to help you solve problems in the business. And I guess, as in the form of >>a question, >>uh, do you Do you see that as a challenge? Now those the limited number of seats at >>the Table for >>Strategic Partners >>Challenge and >>Opportunity. If you look at the types of partners that we've partnered with storage partners because they own the storage of the data, at the end of the day, we actually just manage it. We don't actually store it the cloud partners. So I see that as the opportunity and my belief is I thought that the storage doesn't matter, >>but I think the >>organisation that can centralise and manage that data is the one that can rule the world, and so >>clearly I'm a team. I think we can do amazing things, but we do have key >>strategic partners hp >>E Amazon. You heard >>them on stage yesterday. >>18 different >>integrations with AWS. So we have very strategic partners. Azure. I go out there all the time. >>So there >>you don't need to be >>in the room at the table because your partners are >>and they have a relationship with the customer as well. Fair enough. But the key to this it's not just technology. It is these relationships and what is possible between our organisations. So I'm sorry to be >>so dense on this, but when you talk about >>centralising that data you're talking about physically centralising it or can actually live across clouds, >>for instance. But you've got >>visibility and your catalogues >>have visibility on >>all that. Is that what you mean by centralised obliterated? We have understanding of all the places that lives, and we can do things with >>it. We can move it from one >>cloud to another. We can take, you know, everyone talks about data warehouses. >>They're actually pretty expensive. >>You got to take data and stream it into this thing, and there's a massive computing power. On the other hand, we're >>not like that. You've storage on there. We can ephemeral e. Spin up a database when you need it for five minutes and then destroy it. We can spin up an image when you need it and then destroy it. And so on your perspective of locations. So irrespective of >>location, it doesn't >>have to be in a central place, and that's been a challenge. You extract, >>transform and load, >>and moving the data to the central >>location has been a problem. We >>have awareness of >>all the data everywhere, >>and then we can make >>decisions as to what you >>do based >>on where it is and >>what it is. And that's a metadata >>innovation. I guess that >>comes back to the catalogue, >>right? Is that correct? >>You have data >>about the data that informs you as to where it is and how to get to it. And yes, so metadata within the data that allows you to recover it and then data across the federation of all that to determine where it is. And machine intelligence plays a role in all that, not yet not yet in that space. Now. I do think there's opportunity in the future to be able to distribute storage across many different locations and that's a whole conversation in itself. But but our machine learning is more just on helping our customers address the problems in their infrastructures rather than determining right now where that data should be. >>These guys they want me to break, But I'm >>refusing. So your >>Hadoop back >>in their rooms via, um that's >>well, >>that scale. A lot of customers. I talked to Renee Dupuis. Hey, we we got there >>was heavy lift. You >>know, we're looking at new >>ways. New >>approaches, uh, going. And of course, it's all in the cloud >>anyway. But what's >>that look like? That future look like we haven't reached bottle and X ray yet on our on our Hadoop clusters, and we do continuously examine >>them for anomalies that might happen. >>Not saying we won't run into a >>bottle like we always do at some >>point, But we haven't yet >>awesome. We've covered a lot of We've certainly covered extensively the research that you did on cyber >>security and ransomware. Um, you're kind of your vision for modern >>data protection. I think we hit on that pretty well casting, you know, we talked to Michael about that, and then, you know, the future product releases the Salesforce data protection. You guys, I think you're the first there. I think you were threatened at first from Microsoft. 3 65. No, there are other vendors in the in the salesforce space. But what I tell people we weren't the first to do data capture at the hyper >>visor level. There's two other >>vendors I won't tell you they were No one remembers them. Microsoft 3 65. We weren't the first one to for that, but we're now >>the largest. So >>there are other vendors in the salesforce space. But we're looking at We're going to be aggressive. Danielle, Thanks >>so much for coming to Cuba and letting us pick your brain like that Really great job today. And congratulations on >>being back >>in semi normal. Thank you for having me. I love being on all right. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there. More coverage. Day volonte for Dave >>Nicholson, By >>the way, check out silicon angle dot com for all the written coverage. All the news >>The cube dot >>net is where all these videos We'll we'll live. Check out wiki bond dot com I published every week. I think I'm gonna dig into the cybersecurity >>research that you guys did this week. If I can >>get a hands my hands on those charts which Dave Russell promised >>me, we'll be right back >>right after this short break. Mm.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to this startup showcase. It's great to be here and talk about some of the innovations we are doing at AWS, how we work with our partner community, especially our open source partners. My name is Deepak Singh. I run our compute services organization, which is a very vague way of saying that I run a number of things that are connected together through compute. Very specifically, I run a container services organization. So for those of you who are into containers, ECS, EKS, fargate, ECR, App Runner Those are all teams that are within my org. I also run the Amazon Linux and BottleRocketing. So anything AWS does with Linux, both externally and internally, as well as our high-performance computing team. And perhaps very relevant to this discussion, I run the Amazon open source program office. Serving at AWS for over 13 years, almost 14, involved with compute in various ways, including EC2. What that has done has given me a vantage point of seeing how our customers use the services that we build for them, how they leverage various partner solutions, and along the way, how AWS itself has gotten involved with opensource. And I'll try and talk to you about some of those factors and how they impact, how you consume our services. So why don't we get started? So for many of you, you know, one of the things, there's two ways to look at AWS and open-source and Amazon in general. One is the number of contributors you may have. And the number of repositories that contribute to. Those are just a couple of measures. There are people that I work with on a regular basis, who will remind you that, those are not perfect measures. Sometimes you could just contribute to one thing and have outsized impact because of the nature of that thing. But it address being what it is, increasingly we'll look at different ways in which we can help contribute and enhance open source 'cause we consume a lot of it as well. I'll talk about it very specifically from the space that I work in the container space in particular, where we've worked a lot with people in the Kubernetes community. We've worked a lot with people in the broader CNCF community, as well as, you know, small projects that our customers might have got started off with. For example, I want to like talking about is Argo CD from Intuit. We were very actively involved with helping them figure out what to do with it. And it was great to see how into it. And we worked, etc, came together to think about get-ups at the Kubernetes level. And while those are their projects, we've always been involved with them. So we try and figure out what's important to our customers, how we can help and then take because of that. Well, let's talk about a little bit more, here's some examples of the kinds of open source projects that Amazon and AWS contribute to. They arranged from the open JDK. I think we even now have our own implementation of Java, the Corretto open source project. We contribute to projects like rust, where we are very active in the rest foundation from a leadership role as well, the robot operating system, just to pick some, we collaborate with Facebook and actively involved with the pirates project. And there's many others. You can see all the logos in here where we participate either because they're important to us as AWS in the services that we run or they're important to our customers and the services that they consume or the open source projects they care about and how we get to those. How we get and make those decisions is often depends on the importance of that particular project. At that point in time, how much impact they're having to AWS customers, or sometimes very feel that us contributing to that project is super critical because it helps us build more robust services. I'll talk about it in a completely, you know, somewhat different basis. You may have heard of us talk about our new next generation of Amazon Linux 2022, which is based on fedora as its sub stream. One of the reasons we made this decision was it allows us to go and participate in the preneurial project and make sure that the upstream project is robust, stays robust. And that, that what that ends up being is that Amazon Linux 2022 will be a robust operating system with the kinds of capabilities that our customers are asking for. That's just one example of how we think about it. So for example, you know, the Python software foundation is something that we work with very closely because so many of our customers use Python. So we help run something like PyPy which is many, you know, if you're a Python developer, I happened to be a Ruby one, but lots of our customers use Python and helping the Python project be robust by making sure PyPy is available to everybody is something that we help provide credits for help support in other ways. So it's not just code. It can mean many different ways of contributing as well, but in the end code and operations is where we hang our happens. Good examples of this is projects that we will create an open source because it makes sense to make sure that we open source some of the core primitives or foundations that are part of our own services. A great example of that, whether this be things that we open source or things that we contribute to. And I'll talk about both and I'll talk about things near and dear to my heart. There's many examples I've picked the two that I like talking about. The first of these is firecracker. Many of you have heard about it, a firecracker for those of you who don't know is a very lightweight virtual machine manager, which allows you to run these micro VMs. And why was this important many years ago when we started Lambda and quite honestly, Fugate and foggy, it still runs quite a bit in that mode, we used to have to run on VMs like everything else and finding the right VM for the size of tasks that somebody asks for the size of function that somebody asks for is requires us to provision capacity ahead of time. And it also wastes a lot of capacity because Lambda function is small. You won't even if you find the smallest VM possible, those can be a little that can be challenging. And you know, there's a lot of resources that are being wasted. VM start at a particular speed because they have to do a whole bunch of things before the operating system spins up and the virtual machine spins up and we asked ourselves, can we do better? come up with something that allows us to create right size, very lightweight, very fast booting. What's your machines, micro virtual machine that we ended up calling them. That's what led to firecracker. And we open source the project. And today firecrackers use, not just by AWS Lambda or foggy, but by a number of other folks, there's companies like fly IO that are using it. We know people using firecracker to run Kubernetes on prem on bare metal as an example. So we've seen a lot of other folks embrace it and use it as the foundation for building their own serverless services, their own container services. And we think there's a lot of value and learnings that we can bring to the table because we get the experience of operating at scale, but other people can bring to the table cause they may have specific requirements that we may not find it as important from an AWS perspective. So that's firecracker an example of a project where we contribute because we feel it's fundamentally important to us as continually. We were found, you know, we've been involved with continuity from the beginning. Today, we are a whole team that does nothing else, but contribute to container D because container D underlies foggy. It underlies our Kubernetes offerings. And it's increasingly being used by customers directly by their placement. You know, where they're running container D instead of running a full on Docker or similar container engine, what it has allowed us to do is focus on what's important so that we can operate continuously at scale, keep it robust and secure, add capabilities to it that AWS customers need manifested often through foggy Kubernetes, but in the end, it's a win-win for everybody. It makes continuously better. If you want to use containers for yourself on AWS, that's a great way to you. You know, you still, you still benefit from all the work that we're doing. The decision we took was since it's so important to us and our customers, we wanted a team that lived in breathed container D and made sure a super robust and there's many, many examples like that. No, that we ended up participating in, either by taking a project that exists or open sourcing our own. Here's an example of some of the open source projects that we have done from an AWS on Amazon perspective. And there's quite a few when I was looking at this list, I was quite surprised, not quite surprised I've seen the reports before, but every time I do, I have to recount and say, that's a lot more than one would have thought, even though I'd been looking at it for such a long time, examples of this in my world alone are things like, you know, what work had to do with Amazon Linux BottleRocket, which is a container host operating system. That's been open-sourced from day one. Firecracker is something we talked about. We have a project called AWS peril cluster, which allows you to spin up high performance computing clusters on AWS using the kind of schedulers you may use to use like slum. And that's an open source project. We have plenty of source projects in the web development space, in the security space. And more recently things like the open 3d engine, which is something that we are very excited about and that'd be open sourced a few months ago. And so there's a number of these projects that cover everything from tooling to developer, application frameworks, all the way to database and analytics and machine learning. And you'll notice that in a few areas, containers, as an example, machine learning as an example, our default is to go with open source option is where we can open source. And it makes sense for us to do so where we feel the product community might benefit from it. That's our default stance. The CNCF, the cloud native computing foundation is something that we've been involved with quite a bit. You know, we contribute to Kubernetes, be contribute to Envoy. I talked about continuity a bit. We've also contributed projects like CDK 8, which marries the AWS cloud development kit with Kubernetes. It's now a sandbox project in Kubernetes, and those are some of the areas. CNCF is such a wide surface area. We don't contribute to everything, but we definitely participate actively in CNCF with projects like HCB that are critical to eat for us. We are very, very active in just how the project evolves, but also try and see which of the projects that are important to our customers who are running Kubernetes maybe by themselves or some other project on AWS. Envoy is a good example. Kubernetes itself is a good example because in the end, we want to make sure that people running Kubernetes on AWS, even if they are not using our services are successful and we can help them, or we can work on the projects that are important to them. That's kind of how we think about the world. And it's worked pretty well for us. We've done a bunch of work on the Kubernetes side to make sure that we can integrate and solve a customer problem. We've, you know, from everything from models to work that we have done with gravity on our arm processor to a virtual GPU plugin that allows you to share and media GPU resources to the elastic fabric adapter, which are the network device for high performance computing that it can use at Kubernetes on AWS, along with things that directly impact Kubernetes customers like the CDKs project. I talked about work that we do with the container networking interface to the Amazon control of a Kubernetes, which is an open source project that allows you to use other AWS services directly from Kubernetes clusters. Again, you notice success, Kubernetes, not EKS, which is a managed Kubernetes service, because if we want you to be successful with Kubernetes and AWS, whether using our managed service or running your own, or some third party service. Similarly, we worked with premetheus. We now have a managed premetheus service. And at reinvent last year, we announced the general availability of this thing called carpenter, which is a provisioning and auto-scaling engine for Kubernetes, which is also an open source project. But here's the beauty of carpenter. You don't have to be using EKS to use it. Anyone running Kubernetes on AWS can leverage it. We focus on the AWS provider, but we've built it in such a way that if you wanted to take carpenter and implemented on prem or another cloud provider, that'd be completely okay. That's how it's designed and what we anticipated people may want to do. I talked a little bit about BottleRocket it's our Linux-based open-source operating system. And the thing that we have done with BottleRocket is make sure that we focus on security and the needs of customers who want to run orchestrated container, very focused on that problem. So for example, BottleRocket only has essential software needed to run containers, se Linux. I just notice it says that's the lineups, but I'm sure that, you know, Lena Torvalds will be pretty happy. And seeing that SE linux is enabled by default, we use things like DM Verity, and it has a read only root file system, no shell, you can assess it. You can install it if you wanted to. We allowed it to create different bill types, variants as we call them, you can create a variant for a non AWS resource as well. If you have your own homegrown container orchestrator, you can create a variant for that. It's designed to be used in many different contexts and all of that is open sourced. And then we use the update framework to publish and secure repository and kind of how this transactional system way of updating the software. And it's something that we didn't invent, but we have embraced wholeheartedly. It's a bottle rockets, completely open source, you know, have partners like Aqua, where who develop security tools for containers. And for them, you know, something I bought in rocket is a natural partnership because people are running a container host operating system. You can use Aqua tooling to make sure that they have a secure Indiana environment. And we see many more examples like that. You may think so over us, it's all about AWS proprietary technology because Lambda is a proprietary service. But you know, if you look peek under the covers, that's not necessarily true. Lambda runs on top of firecracker, as we've talked about fact crackers and open-source projects. So the foundation of Lambda in many ways is open source. What it also allows people to do is because Lambda runs at such extreme scale. One of the things that firecracker is really good for is running at scale. So if you want to build your own firecracker base at scale service, you can have most of the confidence that as long as your workload fits the design parameters, a firecracker, the battle hardening the robustness is being proved out day-to-day by services at scale like Lambda and foggy. For those of you who don't know service support services, you know, in the end, our goal with serverless is to make sure that you don't think about all the infrastructure that your applications run on. We focus on business logic as much as you can. That's how we think about it. And serverless has become its own quote-unquote "Sort of environment." The number of partners and open-source frameworks and tools that are spun up around serverless. In which case mostly, I mean, Lambda, API gateway. So it says like that is pretty high. So, you know, number of open source projects like Zappa server serverless framework, there's so many that have come up that make it easier for our customers to consume AWS services like Lambda and API gateway. We've also done some of our own tooling and frameworks, a serverless application model, AWS jealous. If you're a Python developer, we have these open service runtimes for Lambda, rust dot other options. We have amount of number of tools that we opened source. So in general, you'll find that tooling that we do runtime will tend to be always be open-sourced. We will often take some of the guts of the things that we use to build our systems like firecracker and open-source them while the control plane, etc, AWS services may end up staying proprietary, which is the case in Lambda. Increasingly our customers build their applications and leverage the broader AWS partner network. The AWS partner network is a network of partnerships that we've built of trusted partners. when you go to the APN website and find a partner, they know that that partner meets a certain set of criteria that AWS has developed, and you can rely on those partners for your own business. So whether you're a little tiny business that wants some function fulfill that you don't have the resources for or large enterprise that wants all these applications that you've been using on prem for a long time, and want to keep leveraging them in the cloud, you can go to APN and find that partner and then bring their solution on as part of your cloud infrastructure and could even be a systems integrator, for example, to help you solve this specific development problem that you may have a need for. Increasingly, you know, one of the things we like to do is work with an apartment community that is full of open-source providers. So a great one, there's so many, and you have, we have a panel discussion with many other partners as well, who make it easier for you to build applications on AWS, all open source and built on open source. But I like to call it a couple of them. The first one of them is TIDELIFT. TIDELIFT, For those of you who don't know is a company that provides SAS based tools to curate track, manage open source catalogs. You know, they have a whole network of maintainers and providers. They help, if you're an independent open developer, or a smart team should probably get to know TIDELIFT. They provide you benefits and, you know, capabilities as a developer and maintainer that are pretty unique and really help. And I've seen a number of our open source community embraced TIDELIFT quite honestly, even before they were part of the APN. But as part of the partner network, they get to participate in things like ISP accelerate and they get to they're officially an advanced tier partner because they are, they migrated the SAS offering onto AWS. But in the end, if you're part of the open source supply chain, you're a maintainer, you are a developer. I would recommend working with TIDELIFT because their goal is making all of you who are developing open source solutions, especially on AWS, more successful. And that's why I enjoy this partnership with them. And I'm looking to do a lot more because I think as a company, we want to make sure that open source developers don't feel like they are not supported because all you have to do is read various forums. It's challenging often to be a maintainer, especially of a small project. So I think with helping with licensing license management, security identification remediation, helping these maintainers is a big part of what TIDELIFT to us and it was great to see them as part of a partner network. Another partner that I like to call sysdig. I actually got introduced to them many years ago when they first launched. And one of the things that happened where they were super interested in some of our serverless stuff. And we've been trying to figure out how we can work together because all of our customers are interested in the capabilities that cystic provides. And over the last few years, he found a number of areas where we can collaborate. So sysdig, I know them primarily in a security company. So people use cystic to secure the bills, detect, you know, do threat response, threat detection, completely continuously validate their posture, get this continuous analytics signal on how they're doing and monitor performance. At the end of it, it's a SAS platform. They have a very nice open source security stack. The one I'm most familiar with. And I think most of you are probably familiar with is Falco. You know, sysdig, a CNCF project has been super popular. It's just to go SSS what 3, 37, 40 million downloads by now. So that's pretty, pretty cool. And they have been a great partner because we've had to do make sure that their solution works at target, which is not a natural place for their software to run, but there was enough demand and interest from our customers that, you know, or both companies leaned in to make sure they can be successful. So last year sister got a security competency. We have a number of specific competencies that we for our partners, they have integration and security hub is great. partners are lean in the way cystic has onto making our customer successful. And working with us are the best partners that we have. And there's a number of open source companies out there built on open source where their entire portfolio is built on open source software or the active participants like we are that we love working with on a day to day basis. So, you know, I think the thing I would like to, as we wind this out in this presentation is, you know, AWS is constantly looking for partnerships because our partners enable our customers. They could be with companies like Redis with Mongo, confluent with Databricks customers. Your default reaction might be, "Hey, these are companies that maybe compete with AWS." but no, I mean, I think we are partners as well, like from somebody at the lower end of the spectrum where people run on top of the services that I own on Linux and containers are SE 2, For us, these partners are just as important customers as any AWS service or any third party, 20 external customer. And so it's not a zero sum game. We look forward to working with all these companies and open source projects from an AWS perspective, a big part of how, where my open source program spends its time is making it easy for our developers to contribute, to open source, making it easy for AWS teams to decide when to open source software or participate in open source projects. Over the last few years, we've made significant changes in how we reduce the friction. And I think you can see it in the results that I showed you earlier in this stock. And the last one is one of the most important things that I say and I'll keep saying that, that we do as AWS is carry the pager. There's a lot of open source projects out there, operationalizing them, running them at scale is not easy. It's not all for whatever reason. It may not have anything to do with the software itself. But our core competency is taking that and being really good at operating it and becoming experts at operating it. And then ideally taking that expertise and experience and operating that project, that software and contributing back upstream. Cause that makes it better for everybody. And I think you'll see us do a lot more of that going forward. We've been doing that for the last few years, you know, in the container space, we do it every day. And I'm excited about the possibilities. With that. Thank you very much. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the showcase. >> Okay. Welcome back. We have Deepak sing here. We just had the keynote closing keynote vice-president of compute services. Deepak. Great to a great keynote, great wisdom and insight from that session. A very notable highlights and cutting edge trends and product information. Thanks for sharing. >> No, anytime it's always good to be here. It's too bad that we still doing this virtually, but always good to talk to you, John. >> We'll get hopefully through this way pretty quickly, I want to jump right in. Cause we don't have a lot of time. I want to get some quick question. You've brought up a good things. Open source innovation. Okay. Going next level. You've seen the rise of super clouds and super apps developing at open source. You're seeing big companies contributing, you know, you mentioned Argo into it. You're seeing that dynamic where companies are forming around this. This is a rising tide. This is, this is actually real. It's not the old school of, okay, here's a project. And then someone manages support and commercialization of it. It's actually platform in cloud scale. This is next gen. >> Yeah. And actually I think it started a few years ago. We can talk about a company that, you know, you're very familiar with as part of this event, which is armory many years ago, Netflix spun off this project called Spinnaker. A Spinnaker is CISED you know, CSED system that was developed at Netflix for their own purposes, but they chose to open solicit. And since then, it's become very popular with customers who want to use it even on prem. And you have a company that spun up on it. I think what's making this world very unique is you have very large companies like Facebook that will build things for themselves like VITAS or Netflix with Spinnaker and open source them. And you can have a lot of discussion about why they chose to do so, etc. But increasingly that's becoming the default when Amazon or Netflix or Facebook or Mehta, I guess you call them these days, build something for themselves for their own needs. The first question we ask ourselves is, should it be opensource? And increasingly we are all saying yes. And here's what happens because of that. It gives an opportunity depending on how you open source it for innovation through commercial deployments, so that you get SaaS companies, you know, that are going to take that product and make it relevant and useful to a very broad number of customers. You build partnerships with cloud providers like AWS, because our customers love this open source project and they need help. And they may choose an AWS managed service, or they may end up working with this partner on a day-to-day basis. And we want to work with that partner because they're making our customers successful, which is one reason all of us are here. So you're having this set of innovation from large companies from, you know, whether they are just consumer companies like Metta infrastructure companies like us, or just random innovation that's happening in an open source project that which ends up in companies being spun up and that foster that innovative innovation and that flywheel that's happening right now. And I think you said that like, this is unique. I mean, you never saw this happen before from so many different directions. >> It really is a nice progression on the business model side as well. You mentioned Argo, which is a great organic thing that was Intuit developed. We just interviewed code fresh. They just presented here in the showcase as well. You seeing the formation around these projects develop now in the community at a different scale. I mean, look at code fresh. I mean, Intuit did it Argo and they're not just supporting it. They're building a platform. So you seeing the dynamics of tools and now emerging the platforms, you mentioned Lambda, okay. Which is proprietary for AWS and your talk powered by open source. So again, open source combined with cloud scale allows for new potential super applications or super clouds that are developing. This is a new phenomenon. This isn't just lift and shift and host on the cloud. This is actually a construction production developer workflow. >> Yeah. And you are seeing consumers, large companies, enterprises, startups, you know, it used to be that startups would be comfortable adopting some of these solutions, but now you see companies of all sizes doing so. And I said, it's not just software it's software, the services increasingly becoming the way these are given, delivered to customers. I actually think the innovation is just getting going, which is why we have this. We have so many partners here who are all in inventing and innovating on top of open source, whether it's developed by them or a broader community. >> Yeah. I liked, I liked the represent container. Do you guys have, did that drove that you've seen a lot of changes and again, with cloud scale and open source, you seeing the dynamics change, whether you're enabling that, and then you see kind of like real big change. So let's take snowflake, a big customer of AWS. They started out as a startup too, but they weren't a data warehouse. They were bringing data warehouse like functionality and then changing everything differently and making it consumable for the cloud. And hence they're huge. So that's a disruption into an incumbent leader or sector. Then you've got new capabilities emerging. What's your thoughts, Deepak? Can you share your vision on how you have the disruption to existing leaders, old guard, if you will, as you guys call them and then new capabilities as these new platforms emerge at a net new functionality, how do you see that emerging? >> Yeah. So I speak from my side of the world. I've lived in over the last few years, which has containers and serverless, right? There's a lot of, if you go to any enterprise and ask them, do you want to modernize the infrastructure? Do you want to take advantage of automated software delivery, continuous delivery infrastructure as code modern observability, all of them will say yes, but they also are still a large enterprise, which has these enterprise level requirements. I'm using the word enterprise a lot. And I usually it's a trigger word for me because so many customers have similar requirements, but I'm using it here as large company with a lot of existing software and existing practices. I think the innovation that's coming and I see a lot of companies doing that is saying, "Hey, we understand the problems you want to solve. We understand the world where you live in, which could be regulated." You want to use all these new modalities. How do we allow you to use all of them? Keep the advantages of switching to a Lambda or switching to, and a service running on far gate, but give you the same capabilities. And I think I'll bring up cystic here because we work so closely with them on Falco. As an example, I just talked about them in my keynote. They could have just said, "Oh no, we'll just support the SE2 and be done with it." They said, "No, we're going to make sure that serverless containers in particular are something that you're going to be really good at because our customers want to use them, but requires us to think differently. And then they ended up developing new things like Falco that are born in this new world, but understand the requirements of the old world. If you get what I'm saying. And I think that a real example. >> Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, first of all, they're smart. So that was pretty obvious for most people that know, sees that you can connect the dots on serverless, which is a great point, but not everyone can see that again, this is what's new and and systig was just found in his backyard. As I found out on my interview, a great, great founder, they would do a new thing. So it was a very easy to connect the dots there again, that's the trend. Well, I got to ask if they're doing that for serverless, you mentioned graviton in your speech and what came out of you mentioned graviton in your speech and what came out of re-invent this past year was all the innovation going on at the compute level with gravitron at many levels in the Silicon. How should companies and open source developers think about how to innovate with graviton? >> Yeah, I mean, you've seen examples from people blogging and tweeting about how fast their applications run and grab it on the price performance benefits that they get, whether it's on, you know, whether it's an observability or other places. something that AWS is going to embrace across a compute something that AWS is going to embrace across a compute portfolio. Obviously you can go find EC2 instances, the gravitron two instances and run on them and that'll be great. But we know that most of our customers, many of our customers are building new applications on serverless containers and serveless than even as containers increasingly with things like foggy, where they don't want to operate the underlying infrastructure. A big part of what we're doing is to make sure that graviton is available to you on every compute modality. You can run it on a C2 forever. You've been running, being able to use ECS and EKS and run and grab it on almost since launch. What do you want me to take it a step further? You elastic Beanstalk customers, elastic Beanstalk has been around for a decade, but you can now use it with graviton. people running ECS on for gate can now use graviton. Lambda customers can pick graviton as well. So we're taking this price performance benefits that you get So we're taking this price performance benefits that you get from graviton and basically putting it across the entire compute portfolio. What it means is every high level service that gets built on compute infrastructure. And you get the price performance benefits, you get the price performance benefits of the lower power consumption of arm processes. So I'm personally excited like crazy. And you know, this has graviton 2 graviton 3 is coming. >> That's incredible. It's an opportunity like serverless was it's pretty obvious. And I think hopefully everyone will jump on that final question as the time's ticking here. I want to get your thoughts quickly. If you look at what's happened with containers over the past say eight years since the original founding of the first Docker instance, if you will, to how that's evolved and then the introduction of Kubernetes and the cloud native wave we're seeing now, what is, how would you describe the relationship between the success Docker, seeing now with Kubernetes in the cloud native construct what's different and why is this combination so successful? >> Yeah. I often say that containers would have, let me rephrase that. what I say is that people would have adopted sort of the modern way of running applications, whether containers came around or not. But the fact that containers came around made that migration and that journey is so much more efficient for people. So right from, I still remember the first doc that Solomon gave Billy announced DACA and starting to use it on customers, starting to get interested all the way to the more sort of advanced orchestration that we have now for containers across the board. And there's so many examples of the way you can do that. Kubernetes being the most, most well-known one. Here's the thing that I think has changed. I think what Kubernetes or Docker, or the whole sort of modern way of building applications has done is it's taken people who would have taken years adopting these practices and by bringing it right to the fingertips and rebuilding it into the APIs. And in the case of Kubernetes building an entire sort of software world around it, the number of, I would say number of decisions people have to take has gone smaller in many ways. There's so many options, the number of decisions that become higher, but the com the speed at which they can get to a result and a production version of an application that works for them is way low. I have not seen anything like what I've seen in the last 6, 7, 8 years of how quickly the most you know, the most I would say is, you know, a company that you would think would never adopt modern technology has been able to go from, this is interesting to getting a production really quickly. And I think it's because the tooling makes it So, and the fact that you see the adoption that you see right and the fact that you see the adoption that you see right from the fact that you could do Docker run Docker, build Docker, you know, so easily back in the day, all the way to all the advanced orchestration you can do with container orchestrator is today. sort of taking all of that away as well. there's never been a better time to be a developer independent of whatever you're trying to build. And I think containers are a big central part of why that's happened. >> Like the recipe, the combination of cloud-scale, the timing of Kubernetes and the containerization concepts just explode as a beautiful thing. And it creates more opportunities and will challenges, which are opportunities that are net new, but it solves the automation piece that we're seeing this again, it's only makes things go faster. >> Yes. >> And that's the key trend. Deepak, thank you so much for coming on. We're seeing tons of open cloud innovations, thanks to the success of your team at AWS and being great participants in the community. We're seeing innovations from startups. You guys are helping enabling that. Of course, they want to live on their own and be successful and build their super clouds and super app. So thank you for spending the time with us. Appreciate. >> Yeah. Anytime. And thank you. And you know, this is a great event. So I look forward to people running software and building applications, using AWS services and all these wonderful partners that we have. >> Awesome, great stuff. Great startups, great next generation leaders emerging. When you see startups, when they get successful, they become the modern software applications platforms out there powering business and changing the world. This is the cube you're watching the AWS startup showcase. Season two episode one open cloud innovations on John Furrier your host, see you next time.

>>And welcome to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, Mary Roth, VP of engineering operations with couch basis here for Couchbase connect online. Mary. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on remotely for this segment. >>Thank you very much. It's great to be here. >>Love the fire in the background, a little fireside chat here, kind of happening, but I want to get into shooting, you know, engineering and operations with the pandemic has really kind of shown that, you know, engineers and developers have been good working remotely for a while, but for the most part it's impacted companies in general, across the organizations. How did the Couchbase engineering team adapt to the remote work? >>Uh, great question. Um, and I actually think the Couchbase team responded very well to this new model of working imposed by the pandemic. And I have a unique perspective on the couch space journey. I joined in February, 2020 after 20 plus years at IBM, which had embraced a hybrid in-office rewrote remote work model many years earlier. So in my IBM career, I live four minutes away from my research lab in almond and valley, but IBM is a global company with headquarters on the east coast and SU. So throughout my career, I often found myself on phone calls with people around the globe at 5:00 AM in the morning, I quickly learned and quickly adopted to a hybrid model. I'd go into the office to collaborate and have in-person meetings when needed. But if I was on the phone at >> 5: 00 AM in the morning, um, I didn't feel the need to get up at 4:30 AM to go in. >>I just worked from home and I discovered I could be more productive. They're doing think time work. And I really only needed the in-person time for collaboration. These hybrid model allowed me to have a great career at IBM and raise my two daughters at the same time. So when I joined Couchbase I joined a company that was all about being in-person and instead of a four minute commute, it was going to be an hour or more commute for me each way. This was going to be a really big transition for me, but I was excited enough by couch facing what it offered that I decided to give it a try. Well, that was February, 2020. I showed up early in the morning on March 10th, 2020 for an early morning meeting in person only to learn that I was one of the only few people that didn't get the memo. >>We were switching to a remote remote working model. And so over the last year, I have had the ability to watch cow's face and other companies pivot to make this remote working model possible and not only possible, but effective. And I'm really happy to see the results. Our remote work model does have its challenges that's for sure, but it also has its benefits better work-life balance and more time to interact with family members during the day and more quiet time, just to think we just did a retrospective on a major product release Couchbase server 7.0 that we did over the past 18 months. And one of the major insights by the leadership team is that working from home actually made people more effective. I don't think a full remote model is the right approach going forward, but a hybrid model that IBM adopted many years ago and that I was able to participate in for most of my career, I believe is a healthier and more productive approach. >>Well, great story. I love the, um, the, uh, you come back and now you take leverage all the best practices from the IBM days, but how did the, your team and the Couchbase engineering team react and were there any best practices or key learnings that you guys pulled out of that, >>Uh, the, the initial reaction was not good. I mean, as I mentioned, it was a culture based on in-person people had to be in person in person meetings. So it took a while to get used to it, but the, there was a forcing function, right? We had to work remotely. That was the only option. And so people made it work. I think the advancement of virtual meeting technology really, really helps a lot over earlier days in my career where I had just bad phone connections, that was very difficult. But with the virtual meetings that you have, where you can actually see people and interact, I think is really quite helpful. >>What's the DNA of the culture. What's the DNA. Every company's got the DNA entails Moore's law. Um, and at what's the engineering culture at Couchbase like if you could describe it. >>Uh, the engineering culture at Couchbase is very familiar to me. We are at our heart, a database company, and I grew up in the database world, which has a very unique culture based on two values, merit and mentorship. And we also focus on something that I like to call growing. The next generation. Now database technology started in the late sixties, early seventies with a few key players and institutions. These key players were extremely bright and they tackle it and solve really hard problems with elegant solutions long before anybody knew they were going to be necessary. Now, those original key players, people like Jim gray, Bruce Lindsey, Don Chamberlin, pat Salinger, David Dewitt, Michael Stonebraker. They just love solving hard problems. And they wanted to share that elegance with a new generation. And so they really focused on growing the next generation of leaders, which became the Mike caries and the Mohans and the lower houses of the world. And that culture grew over multiple generations with the previous generation cultivating, challenging and advocating for the next, I was really lucky to grow up in that culture. And I've advanced my career as a result, as being part of it. The reason I joined Couchbase is because I see that culture alive and well, here are two fundamental values on the engineering side, our merit and mentorship. >>One of the things I want to get your thoughts on, on the database questions. I remember, you know, back in the old glory days, you mentioned some of those luminaries, you know, there wasn't many database geeks out there, Zuri kind of small community now is databases are everywhere. So you see there's no one database that's ruling the world, but you starting to see a pattern of database kinds of things, and more emerging, more databases than ever before. They're on the internet, they're on the cloud. There are none the edge it's essentially we're living in a large distributed computing environment. So now it's cool to be in databases cause they're everywhere. So, I mean, this is kind of where we're at. What's your reaction to that? >>Uh, you're absolutely right there. There used to be a, a few small vendors and a few key technologies and it's grown over the years, but the fundamental problems are the same data, integrity, performance and scalability. And in the face of district distributed systems, those were all the hard problems that those key leaders solve back in the sixties and seventies. They're not, they're not new problems. They're still there. And they did a lot of the fundamental work that you can apply and reapply in different scenarios and situations. >>It's pretty exciting. I love that. I love the different architectures that are emerging and allows for more creativity for application developers. And this becomes like the key thing we're seeing right now, driving the business and a big conversation here at the, at the event is the powering, these modern applications that need low latency. There's no more, not many spinning disks anymore. It's all in Ram, all these kinds of different memory, you got decentralization and all kinds of new constructs. How do you make sense of it all? How do you talk to customers? What's the, what's the, what's the main core thing happening right now? If you had to describe it? >>Yeah, it depends on the type of customer you're talking to. Um, we have focused primarily on the enterprise market and in that market, there are really fundamental issues. Information for, for these enterprises is key. It's their core asset that they have and they understand very well that they need to protect it and make it available more quickly. I started as a DBA at Morgan Stanley back, um, right out of college. And at the time I think it was, it probably still is, but at the time it was the best run it shop that I'd ever seen in my life. The fundamental problems that we had to solve to get information from one stock exchange to another, to get it to the sec, um, are the same problems that we're solving today. Back then we were working on mainframes and over high-speed data comm links today, it's the same kind of problem. It's just the underlying infrastructure has changed. >>You know, the key has been a big supporter of women in tech. We've done thousands of interviews on why I got you. I want to ask you, uh, if you don't mind, um, career advice that you give women who are starting out in the field of engineering, computer science, what do you wish you knew when you started your career? And you could be that person now, what would you say? >>Yeah, well, there are a lot of things I wish I knew then, uh, that I know now, but I think there are two key aspects to a successful career in engineering. I actually got started as a math major and the reason I, I became a math major is a little convoluted. Is it as a girl, I was told we were bad at math. And so for some reason I decided that I had to major in it. That's actually how I got my start. Um, but I've had a great career and I think there are really two key aspects first. And is that it is a discipline in which respect is gained through merit. As I had mentioned earlier, engineers are notoriously detail oriented and most of our perfectionist, they love elegant, well thought out solutions and give respect when they see one. So understanding this can be a very important advantage if you're always prepared and you always bring your a game to every debate, every presentation, every conversation you have build up respect among your team, simply through merit. While that may mean that you need to be prepared to defend every point early on say, in your graduate career or when you're starting over time, others will learn to trust your judgment and begin to intuitively follow your lead just by reputation. The reverse is also true. If you don't bring your a game and you don't come prepared to debate, you will quickly lose respect. And that's particularly true if you're a woman. So if you don't know your stuff, don't engage in the debate until you do. That's awesome. >>That's >>Fine. Continue. Thank you. So my second piece of advice that I wish I could give my younger self is to understand the roles of leaders and influencers in your career and the importance of choosing and purposely working with each. I like to break it down into three types of influencers, managers, mentors, and advocates. So that first group are the people in your management chain. It's your first line manager, your director, your VP, et cetera. Their role in your career is to help you measure short-term success. And particularly with how that success aligns with their goals and the company's goals. But it's important to understand that they are not your mentors and they may not have a direct interest in your long-term career success. I like to think of them as say, you're sixth grade math teacher. You know, you're getting an a in the class and advancing to seventh grade. >>They own you for that. Um, but whether you get that basketball scholarship to college or getting to Harvard or become a CEO, they have very little influence over that. So a mentor is someone who does have a shared interest in your longterm success, maybe by your relationship with him or her, or because by helping you shape your career and achieve your own success, you help advance their goals. Whether it be the company success or helping more women achieve, we do put sip positions or getting more kids into college, on a basketball scholarship, whatever it is, they have some long-term goal that aligns with helping you with your career. And they gave great advice. But that mentor is not enough because they're often outside of the sphere of influence in your current position. And while they can offer great advice and coaching, they may not be able to help you directly advance. >>That's the role of the third type of influencer. Somebody that I call an advocate, an advocate is someone that's in a position to directly influence your advancement and champion you and your capabilities to others. They are in influential positions and others place, great value in their opinions. Advocates stay with you throughout your career, and they'll continue to support you and promote you wherever you are and wherever they are, whether that's the same organization or not. They're the ones who, when a leadership position opens up will say, I think Mary's the right person to take on that challenge, or we need to move in a new direction. I think Mary's the right person to lead that effort. Now advocates are the most important people to identify early on and often in your career. And they're often the most overlooked people early on, often pay too much attention and rely on their management chain for advanced managers, change on a dime, but mentors and advocates are there for you for the long haul. And that's one of the unique things about the database culture. Those set of advocates were just there already because they had focused on building the next generation. So I consider, you know, Mike Carey is my father and Mike Stonebraker is my grandfather. And Jim gray is my great-grandfather and they're always there to advocate for me. >>That's like a scheme and a database. You got to have it all white. They're kind of teed up. Beautiful, great advice. >>Thank you for that. That was really a masterclass. And that's going to be great advice for folks really trying to figure out how to play the cards they have a and the situation and to double down or move and find other opportunities. So great stuff there. I do have to ask you Maira, thanks for coming on the technical side and the product side Couchbase Capella was launched, uh, in conjunction with the event. What is, what is the bottom line for that as, as an operations and engineering, you know, built the products and roll it out. What's the main top line message for about that product? >>Yeah, well, we're very excited about the release of Capella and what it brings to the table is that it's a fully managed in an automated database cloud offering so that customers can focus on development and building and improving their applications and reducing the time to market without having to worry about the hard problems underneath and the operational database management efforts that come with it. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, I started my career as a UVA and it was one of the most sought after and highly paid positions in it because operating a database required so much work. So with Capella, what we're seeing is, you know, taking that job away from me, I'm not going to be able to apply for a DBA tomorrow. >>That's great stuff. Well, great. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate congratulations on the company and public offering this past summer in July and thanks for that great commentary and insight on the QPR. Thank you. >>Thank you very much. >>Okay. Mary Ross, VP of engineering operations at Couchbase part of Couchbase connect online. I'm John furry host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Hello, welcome back to the Red Hat Summit, 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Ferez, theCUBE coverage. I'm in Palo Alto with the remote interviews for our virtual conference here. We've got two great guests, CUBE alumnis, Tom Anderson, VP of Ansible Automation Platform, and Robin Bergeron, who's the Senior Manager, Ansible Community, community architect and all the great things involved. Robin, great to see you. Tom, thanks for coming back on Red Hat Summit, here, virtual. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having us. >> So since last summit, what's the updates on the Ansible Community and the Automation Platform? Tom, we'll start with you. Automation Platform, what's the big updates? >> Yeah. So since last Summit a lot has happened in Ansible land, if you will. So last time, I remember talking to you about content collections. Packing distribution format for into the sports. So we put a lot of effort into bringing all the Ansible content collections really, as well as the commercial users. And we launched last year a program certified content, working with our partners, including partners to certify the content collections that they create. Co-certify them, where we work together to make sure that the developed against, and tested against a Proctor spec, so that both of us can provide them to our customer bases with the confidence that they're going to be working and performing properly, and that we at Red Hat, and our partnership, co-support those out in our customer's production parts. That was a big deal. The other thing that we announced, late last fall, was the private automation hub. And that's the idea where our customers, obviously appreciate the idea of being able to go to Ansible galaxy or to the Ansible automation opt, to go and grab these content collections, these integrations, and bring them down in their environment. They wanted a way, they wanted a methodology, or a repository, where they can curate content from different sources, and then the manager across their environment, the automation across the environment. Kind of leaning into a little bit of automation content as code, if you will. And so we launched the automation hub, the private automation hub, where that sits in our customer's infrastructure; whether that's in the cloud, or on premise, or both, and allows them to grab content from galaxy, from the Ansible automation hub, the Ansible, automation hub on call.red hat.com, as well as their internally developed content, and be able to manage and provide that across their organization, governed by a set policies. So lots of stuff that's going on. Really advanced considering the amount of content that we provide. The amount of collections that we provide. Have certified that for our customers. And have the ability to curate and manage that content across the teams. >> I want to do a drill down on some of the unification of teams, which is a big message as well, as operating at scale, cause that's a super value proposition you guys have. And I want to get into that, but Robin, I want to come back to you on the community. So much has gone on. We're now into the pandemic for almost a year and a half now. It's been a productivity boom. Developers have been working at home for a long time, so it's not a new workflow for them, but you've seen a lot more productivity. What it's changed in the community since last summit, again, virtual to virtual again, between the windows here, event windows. You guys have a lot going on. What's new in the community? Gives us an update. >> Yeah, well, I mean, if we go back to summit, you know, this time-ish, you know, last year, we were wrapping up, more or less, the, it was, you know, we used to have everything you would install Ansible. You would get all the modules. You had everything, you know. It was all all altogether, which, you know, it was great for new users, who don't want to have to figure things out. It helps them to really get up and started running quickly. And, but, you know, from a community perspective, trying to manage that level of complexity turned out to be pretty hard. So the move to collections was actually great for, you know, not just, you know, for about user perspective, but also from a community perspective. And we came out with the Ansible 2-10. That was last fall, I believe. And that was the first real release of Ansible where we had, you know, collections were fully instantiated. We, you know, they were available on galaxy, but you could also get them as part of the Ansible community distribution. Fast forward to now, you know, we just had the Ansible 3.0 release, here in February, and we're looking to Ansible 4.0 here in early May. So, you know, there's been a lot of activity. A lot has improved, honestly, as a result of the changes that we've made. It's made it a lot easier for contributors to get in with a smaller group, that's more of their size and, you know, be able to get started and identify, you know, who are their interested peers in the community. So it's been a boom for us, honestly. You know, the pandemic otherwise is, you know, I think taught all of us, you know, certainly you, John, about the amazing things that we can do virtually. So we've had a lot of our meetups pivot to being virtual meetups, and things like that. And it's been great to see how easily the community has been able to pivot around, you know, this sort of event. I hope that we don't have to just keep practicing it for forever, but in the meantime, you know, it's enabled us to continue to get things done. Thank goodness to every video platform on Earth. >> Yeah. Well, we appreciate it. We're going to come back and talk more about that in the future; the best practice, what we all learned, and stories, but I think I want to come back to you on the persona side of Ansible, because one of the things we talked about last time that seems to be gaining a lot of traction, is that multiple personas. So I want to just hold on to that. We'll come back. Tom, back to you. We're at Red Hat summit. You guys have Ansible Fest, which is your own event that you guys drilled down on this. So users watching can know this your own community, but now we're part of Red Hat, part of IBM, which IBM Thinks, also happening soon as well. Red Hat summit still is unique event. How is Ansible fitting into the big picture? Because the value proposition of unifying teams is really consistent now with Red Hat's overall arching thing; which is operating at scale, open shift, Robin just mentioned. Where's the automation platform going this year? What's the story here at Red Hat summit for the automation platform? >> Yeah, no, that's a great question . We've seen so, we got time, just a little bit of the pandemic, and how it has accelerated some existing trends that we already saw. And one of those is really around the democratization of the application to work routines. More people delivering infrastructure and applications, independent of each other. Which is great. Faster and more agile, all those other good words that apply to that. But what that does bring up is the opportunity for patient work. Replication of effort. Not reusing necessarily things that are in existence already that other teams may have. They'd be not complying with all of the policies, if you will, the configuration and clients' policies. And so it's really kind of brought Ansible out into focus even more here. Now, because of the kind of common back lane that Ansible provides; a common language and common automation backplane across these different teams, and across these different personas. The great thing about what we supply for these different personas, whether it's outpatient developers, infrastructure honors, network engineers, SecOps teams, GetOps teams. There's so many of these obstacles out there, who now all want independent access to infrastructure, and deploying infrastructure. And Ansible has the kind of leverage that each of those communities, whether it's APIs or CLIs, or event based automation, or web hooks, et cetera, et cetera, you know? Service catalogs, utilize all of those interfaces, if you will, or modalities are accessible in Ansible automations. So it's really allowed us to be this sort of connective tissue, or glue, across these different silos or manes of the organization. Timing it opens specifically, one of the things that we talked about last fall, at our Ansible Fest, was our integration between the Ansible automation platform, our advanced cluster management product, and our OpenShift platform, that allows native applications, running on OpenShift, be able to talk to a Ansible automation operator that's running on that same platform, to do things off platform for their customers are already using Ansible. So connecting their cloud native platforms with our existing systems and infrastructures. Systems of records, network systems, ticketing systems, you name it. So all of those sorts of integrations, Ansible's become the connected glue across all of these different environments. Tying traditional IT, cloud IT, cloud native, you name it. So it's really been fun, and it's been an exciting time for us inside the portfolio and out. >> That's a great point. Connective tissue is a great way to describe some of these platform benefits, cause you guys have been on this platform for really long time. And the benefits are kind of being seen in the market, certainly as people have to move faster with the agility. Robin, I want to come back to you because he brought up this idea of personas. I mean, we all know DevOps infrastructure has code; it's been our religion for over a decade or more, but now the word DevSecOps is more prevalent in all the conversations. The security's now weaved in here. How are you seeing that play out in the community? And then, Tom, if you can give some color commentary too, on the automation platform, how security fits in? So DevOps, everything's being operationalized at scale, we get that. That's one of the value propositions you have, but DevSecOps has a persona. More people want more sec. Dev is great, more ops and standardization, more developers, agile standards, and then security. DevSecOps. What's your? >> I thought it was DevNetSecOps? (man chuckling) >> Okay. I've forgot net. Put net in there. Well, networks abstracted away, you know, as we say. >> Yeah! Well, you know, from my perspective, you know, they're people in their jobs all over the places, right? Like, they, you know, the more they can feel like they're efficient, and doing great stuff at their work, like, they're happy to bring as many people into the fold as possible. Right? And you know, normally, security's always been this, you know, it's sort of like networking, right? It's always been this sort of isolated, this special group over here, that's the traditional, you know, one of the traditional IT bottlenecks that causes us to not be able to get anything done. But, you know, on a community level, we see folks who are interested in security, you know, all the time. I know we've certainly done quite a bit of work with the some folks at IBM around one of their products; which I assume Tom will get more into here in just a moment. But from, you know, community perspective, I mean, we've seen people who've been writing, you know, playbooks and roles and, you know, now collections for, you know, all of the traditional government testing, you know, is, you know, missed standards, all of that kind of stuff. And, you know, it's one of those, it's part of network effects. And it's a great place for actually automation hub. I think, you know, for folks who were on prem or, you know, any of our customers are really going to start to see lots of value. How it will be able to connect folks inside the organization, you know, organically through just the place where I'm doing my Ansible things, allows them to find each other, really. And build those, you know, take it from being silos of automation everywhere into a really sort of networked, you know, internal network of Ansible friends and Ansible power users that, you know, can work together and collaborate, you know, just the same way that we do in open source. >> Yeah. And Tom, so IT modernization requires security. What's your take on this? Because you know, you got cluster, a lot of cluster, advanced cluster management issues. You got to deal with the modern apps that are coming. IT's got to evolve. What's your take on all this? >> Yeah. Not only does IT have to evolve, but it's the integration of IT into the rest of the environment. To be able to respond. So, one of the areas that we put a lot of effort into advancement of curating and solutions around security automation. And we've talked about that in the past, the idea of connecting SecOps teams that are doing intrusion detection, or threat hunting, and then responding in an automated way to those threat protections. Right? So connect SecOps with my team; which has traditionally been siloed operations and silo teams. And now with this curated, Ansible security automation solution that we brought to market, with our partners, that connects those two teams in a seamless sort of way. And we've got a lot of work with our friends at IBM, around this area because they are digging that security, their facility, the products in their portfolio. So we've done a lot of work with them. We've done a lot of work with lots of our partners; whether it's cyber or Microsoft, or whoever. Those areas are traditionally, Ansible's done a great job on sort of compliance around configuration enforcement, right? Setting configuration. Now we moved into connecting set-mops with IT. Security automation, now of our acquisition of SecOps, along with our advanced cluster management integration with Ansible, we're starting to say, what are the things inside that DevSecOps workflow that may require integration or automation, or package automation with other parts of the environment? So bringing all of those pieces together, as we move forward, which is really exciting for us. >> Okay, I got to ask you guys the number one question that I get all the time, and I see in the marketplace, kind of a combo question, is, how do I accelerate the automation of my cloud native development, with my traditional infrastructure? Because as people put in green, if one of the cloud projects, whether it's, and then integrating with the cloud on premises with the traditional infrastructure, how do I accelerate those two environments? How do I automate, accelerate the automation? >> It's a great short for us, as what we were talking about last Ansible Fest. We are bringing together with our advanced, cluster management product, ownership platform. Ansible is just been widespread use in all of the automation of both traditional, and cloud native, infrastructures. Whether it's cloud infrastructure, on-premise storage, compute network, you name it. Customers are using Ansible, using Ansible to do all kinds of pieces of infrastructure. Being able to tie that to their new, cloud native initiatives, without having to redo all of that work that they've already done, you integrate that, this thing, infrastructure automation, with their cloud native stuff, it accelerates substantially the, what I call, the operationalization of their cloud native platforms, with their existing IT infrastructure in the existing, IT ecosystem. I believe that that's what the Ansible automation platform plays a key role in connecting those pieces together, without having to redo all that work, that's been done and invested. >> Robin, what's your take on this? This is what people are working on in the trenches. They realize cloud benefits. They've got some cloud native action, and also then they got on the traditional environment, and they've got to get them connected and automated. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the beauty of Ansible, you know, from a end user perspective is, you know, how easy it is to learn and how easy the languages to learn. And I think, you know, that portability, you know, it doesn't matter like, how much of a rocket scientist you are, you know? Everybody appreciates simplicity. Everybody appreciates being able to hand something simple to somebody else, and letting other people get done, and having it, be more or less, it's not quite English, but it's definitely, you know, Ansible's quite readable. Right? And you know, when we looked at, when we started to work on all the Ansible operators, you know, one of that, one of the main pieces there was making sure that that simplicity that we have in Ansible, is brought over directly into the operator. So, just because it's cloud native doesn't mean you suddenly have to learn, you know, a whole set of new languages. Ansible's just as portable there, as it is to any other part of the, your IT organization, infrastructure, whatever it is that you have going on. >> Well, there's a lot of action going on here at Red Hat summit, 2021. Things I wanted to bring up, in context of the show, is the success, and the importance, of you guys having Ansible collections. This has come up multiple times, as we talked about those personas, and you've got these new contributors. You've got people contributing content, as open-source continues to grow and be phenomenal. Value proposition. Touch on this concept of collections. What's the updates? Why is it important? Why should folks pay attention to it, and continue to innovate with collections? >> From a commercial perspective, or from a product perspective, collections have made it a lot easier for contributors to create, and deploy, and distribute content. As Robin's mentioned earlier, previous iterations of Ansible have all of that integration. All of those collections, all within one big group. We call the "batteries included" back in the time. Back in the day, right? That that meant that contributors deployed content with the base, Ansible distribution, they had to wait for the next version of Ansible to come out. That's when that content would get redistributed with the next version of Ansible. By de-coupling, on platform, or engine, putting that into collections, individual elements of related integrations, those can move that their own pace. So users, new customers, can get the content they need, based their contributors like and keep up with. So, customers will have to wait for the next version of the shipping products and get a new version of the new integration they really like now. So again, de-coupling those things, it allows them to move at different paces. The engine, or the platform itself, needs to be stable, performance secure. It's going to move at a certain lifecycle. The content itself, all the different content, hub, and network providers, platforms, all of those things can now move at their own pace. Each of those have their own life cycle. Allows us to get more functionality in our customers hands a lot quicker. And then launching our certified program, partners, when we support that content, certified support that content, helps meet the values that we bring to our customers with this subscription. It's that ecosystem of partners that we work with, who certified and support the stuff that we ship and support with our customers. Benefits both from the accessing the technology, as well as to the access to the value added in terms of integration, testing and support. >> Robin, what's your take on the community? I see custom automation with connect here. A lot of action going on with collections. >> Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it's been interesting, you know? Tom just mentioned the, you know, how everything, previously, all had to be released all at once. Right? And if you think about, you know, sure I have Ansible installed, but you know, how often do I have to, you know, just even as a regular, I'm not a system administrator these days, type person, like how often do I have to, you know, click that button to update, you know, my Mac or my Linux machine? Or, you know, my windows machine, or you know, the operating system on my telephone, right? Every time one of these devices that Ansible connects to, or program, or whatever it is, connects to something, those things are all operating and, you know, developing themselves at their own paces. Right? So when a new version of, you know, we'll call it Red Hat, Enterprise Linux. When a new version of Red Hat, Enterprise Linux comes out, if there are new changes, or new features that, you know, we want to be able to connect to, that's not really helpful when we're not releasing for another six months. Right? So it's really helped us, you know, from a community angle, to able to have each of these collections working in concert with, you know, for example, the Lennox subsystems that are actually making things that will turn be turned into collections, right? Like, SE Linux, or a system D, right? Like, those things move at their own pace. We can update those at our own pace in collections, and then people can update those collections without having to wait another six months, or eight months, or whatever it is, for a new version of Ansible to come out. It's really made it easier for all of those, you know, developers of content to work on their content and their, you know, Ansible relationships almost in sync. And make sure that, you know, not, "I'm going to do it over here. And then I'm going to come back over here and fix everything later." It's more of a, you know, continuous development process. >> So, the experience. So the contributor experience is better then? You'd say? >> I'm sorry? >> The contributor experience is better then? >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 100%. I mean, it's, you know, there's something to be said for, I wouldn't say it's like, instant satisfaction, but certainly the ability to have a little bit more independence, and be able to release things as you see fit, and not be gated by the entire rest of the project, is amazing for those folks. >> All right. So I'll put you on the spot, Robin. So if I'm a developer, bottom line me, what's in it for me? Why should I pay attention to collections? What's the bottom line? >> Well, you know, Ansible is a platform, and Ansible benefits from network effects. You know, the reason that we've gotten as big as we have, is sort of like the snowball rolling downhill, right? The more people that latch onto what you're doing, the more people benefit and the more, you know, additional folks want to join in. So, you know, if I was working on any other product that I would consider being able to have automated with Ansible, you know, the biggest thing that I would look at is, well, you know, what are those people also using? Are they automating it with Ansible? And I can guarantee you, 99% of the time, everything else that people are using is also being automated with Ansible. So you'd be crazy to not, you know, want to participate, and make sure that you're providing the best, Ansible experience for, you know, your application, cause for every application or, you know, device that we can connect to, there's probably 20 other competitors that also make similar applications that, you know, folks might also consider in lieu of you if you're not using, if you're not providing Ansible content for it. >> Hey, make things easier, simple to use, and you reduce the steps it takes to do things. That's a winning formula, Tom. I mean, when you make things that good, then you get the network effect. But this highlights what you mentioned earlier, about connective tissue. When you were using words like "connective tissue" it implies an organizational's, not a mechanism. It's not just software, it's people. As a people experience here in the automation platform. >> Robin: Yep. >> This seems to be the bottom line. What's your take? What's your bottom line view? I'm a developer, what's in it for me? Why should I pay attention to the automation platform? >> What Robert just said to me is, more people using. Automation platform, crossing those domains, and silos as kind of connective tissue across those teams, and its personas, means those contributors, those developers, creating automation content, getting in the hands of more people across the organization. In a more simplified way by using Ansible automation. They get access, the automation itself, those personas, they get access to the system automation faster, they can have the money quicker, local to local folks. To reinvent the wheel in terms of automation, we're trying to, (man speaking faintly) They don't want to know about the details, and what it takes to configure the network, configure the storage elements. They rely on those automation developers and contributors that review that for them. One powers of the platform. Across those teams, across those others. Okay we're going to talk about SecOps, The ITOps, in SecOps, in networkOps. And to do all of these tasks, with the same language, and same unition content, running faster, and it's monitoring core responsibilities without worrying. >> Robin, you wanted to talk about something in the community, any updates? I think navigator, you mentioned you wanted to mention a plug for that? >> Absolutely! So, you know, much like any other platform in the universe, you know, if you don't have really great tools for developing content, you're kind of, you know, dead in the water, right? Or you're leaving it to fate. So we've been working on a new project, not part of the product yet, but you know, it's sort of in a community, exploratory phrase. A release, early release often, or, you know, minimum viable product, I guess, might be the other way to describe it currently. It's called Ansible navigator. It's a Tooey, which is like a gooey, but it's got a, sort of a terminal, user interface look to it, that allows you to, you know, develop, it's a sort of interface where you can develop content, you know, all in one window. Have your, you know, documentation accessible to you. Have, you know, all of your test results available to you in one window, rather than, I'm going to do something here, And then I'm going to go over here, and now I'm not sure. So now I'm going to go over here and look at docs instead. It's all, you know, it's all in one place. Which we think will actually, but I mean, I know the folks who have seen it already been like, (woman squealing) but you know, it's definitely in early, community stages right now. It's, you know, we can give you the link. It's github.com/Ansible/Ansiblenavigator >> A tooey versus a gooey, versus a command line interface. >> Yeah! >> How do you innovate on the command line? It's a cooey, or a? >> Yeah! >> It's, you know, there are so many IDs out there and I think Tom can probably talk to some of this, you know, how that might relate to VA code or, you know, many of the other, you know, traditional developer IDs that are out there. But, you know, the goal is certainly to be able to integrate with some of those other pieces. But, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, if everybody's using the same tool and we can start to enforce higher levels, quality and standards through that tool, there's benefits for everyone. Tom, I don't know if you want to add on to that in any way? >> Yeah, it's just kind of one of our focus areas here, which is making it as easy as possible for contributors to create Ansible automation content. And so part of that is production, meaning S & K. Remember what happened to S & K for Ansible? That involved developers and contributors to use ID's, build and deploy automation content. So, I'm really focused on making that contributor life their job. >> Well, thanks for coming on Tom and Robin. Thanks for sharing the insight here at Red Hat Summit 21, virtual. So you guys continue to do a great job with the success of the platform, which has been, you know, consistently growing and having great satisfaction with developers, and now ops teams, and sec teams, and net teams. You know, unifying these teams is certainly a huge priority for enterprises because the end of the day, cloud-scale is all about operating. Which means more standards, more operations. That's what you guys are doing. So congratulations on the continued success. Thanks for sharing. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay. I'm John for here in theCUBE we are remote with CUBE virtual for Red Hat Summit, 2021. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Hi, Lisa Martin here covering the Broadcom dev ops virtual forum. I'm very pleased to be joined today by a cube alumni, Jeffrey Hammond, the vice president and principal analyst serving CIO is at Forester. Jeffrey. Nice to talk with you today. >>Good morning. It's good to be here. Yeah. >>So a virtual forum, great opportunity to engage with our audiences so much has changed in the last it's an understatement, right? Or it's an overstated thing, but it's an obvious, so much has changed when we think of dev ops. One of the things that we think of is speed, you know, enabling organizations to be able to better serve customers or adapt to changing markets like we're in now, speaking of the need to adapt, talk to us about what you're seeing with respect to dev ops and agile in the age of COVID, what are things looking like? >>Yeah, I think that, um, for most organizations, we're in a, uh, a period of adjustment, uh, when we initially started, it was essentially a sprint, you know, you run as hard as you can for as fast as you can for as long as you can and you just kind of power through it. And, and that's actually what, um, the folks that get hub saw in may when they ran an analysis of how developers, uh, commit times and a level of work that they were committing and how they were working, uh, in the first couple of months of COVID was, was progressing. They found that developers, at least in the Pacific time zone were actually increasing their work volume, maybe because they didn't have two hour commutes or maybe because they were stuck away in their homes, but for whatever reason, they were doing more work. >>And it's almost like, you know, if you've ever run a marathon the first mile or two in the marathon, you feel great and you just want to run and you want to power through it and you want to go hard. And if you do that by the time you get to mile 18 or 19, you're going to be gassed. It's sucking for wind. Uh, and, and that's, I think where we're starting to hit. So as we start to, um, gear our development chops out for the reality that most of us won't be returning into an office until 2021 at the earliest and many organizations will, will be fundamentally changing, uh, their remote workforce, uh, policies. We have to make sure that the agile processes that we use and the dev ops processes and tools that we use to support these teams are essentially aligned to help developers run that marathon instead of just kind of power through. >>So, um, let me give you a couple of specifics for many organizations, they have been in an environment where they will, um, tolerate Rover remote work and what I would call remote work around the edges like developers can be remote, but product managers and, um, you know, essentially scrum masters and all the administrators that are running the, uh, uh, the SCM repositories and, and the dev ops pipelines are all in the office. And it's essentially centralized work. That's not, we are anymore. We're moving from remote workers at the edge to remote workers at the center of what we do. And so one of the implications of that is that, um, we have to think about all the activities that you need to do from a dev ops perspective or from an agile perspective, they have to be remote people. One of the things I found with some of the organizations I talked to early on was there were things that administrators had to do that required them to go into the office to reboot the SCM server as an example, or to make sure that the final approvals for production, uh, were made. >>And so the code could be moved into the production environment. And so it actually was a little bit difficult because they had to get specific approval from the HR organizations to actually be allowed to go into the office in some States. And so one of the, the results of that is that while we've traditionally said, you know, tools are important, but they're not as important as culture as structure as organization as process. I think we have to rethink that a little bit because to the extent that tools enable us to be more digitally organized and to hiring, you know, achieve higher levels of digitization in our processes and be able to support the idea of remote workers in the center. They're now on an equal footing with so many of the other levers, uh, that, that, um, uh, that organizations have at their disposal. Um, I'll give you another example for years. >>We've said that the key to success with agile at the team level is cross-functional co located teams that are working together physically co located. It's the easiest way to show agile success. We can't do that anymore. We can't be physically located at least for the foreseeable future. So, you know, how do you take the low hanging fruits of an agile transformation and apply it in, in, in, in the time of COVID? Well, I think what you have to do is that you have to look at what physical co-location has enabled in the past and understand that it's not so much the fact that we're together looking at each other across the table. It's the fact that we're able to get into a shared mindspace, uh, from, um, uh, from a measurement perspective, we can have shared purpose. We can engage in high bandwidth communications. It's the spiritual aspect of that physical co-location that is actually important. So one of the biggest things that organizations need to start to ask themselves is how do we achieve spiritual colocation with our agile teams? Because we don't have the, the ease of physical co-location available to us anymore? >>Well, the spiritual co-location is such an interesting kind of provocative phrase there, but something that probably was a challenge here, we are seven, eight months in for many organizations, as you say, going from, you know, physical workspaces, co-location being able to collaborate face to face to a, a light switch flip overnight. And this undefined period of time where all we were living with with was uncertainty, how does spiritual, what do you, when you talk about spiritual co-location in terms of collaboration and processes and technology help us unpack that, and how are you seeing organizations adopted? >>Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a great question. And, and I think it goes to the very root of how organizations are trying to transform themselves to be more agile and to embrace dev ops. Um, if you go all the way back to the, to the original, uh, agile manifesto, you know, there were four principles that were espoused individuals and interactions over processes and tools. That's still important. Individuals and interactions are at the core of software development, processes and tools that support those individual and interact. Uh, those individuals in those interactions are more important than ever working software over comprehensive documentation. Working software is still more important, but when you are trying to onboard employees and they can't come into the office and they can't do the two day training session and kind of understand how things work and they can't just holler over the cube, uh, to ask a question, you may need to invest a little bit more in documentation to help that onboarding process be successful in a remote context, uh, customer collaboration over contract negotiation. >>Absolutely still important, but employee collaboration is equally as important if you want to be spiritually, spiritually co-located. And if you want to have a shared purpose and then, um, responding to change over following a plan. I think one of the things that's happened in a lot of organizations is we have focused so much of our dev ops effort around velocity getting faster. We need to run as fast as we can like that sprinter. Okay. You know, trying to just power through it as quickly as possible. But as we shift to, to the, to the marathon way of thinking, um, velocity is still important, but agility becomes even more important. So when you have to create an application in three weeks to do track and trace for your employees, agility is more important. Um, and then just flat out velocity. Um, and so changing some of the ways that we think about dev ops practices, um, is, is important to make sure that that agility is there for one thing, you have to defer decisions as far down the chain to the team level as possible. >>So those teams have to be empowered to make decisions because you can't have a program level meeting of six or seven teams and one large hall and say, here's the lay of the land. Here's what we're going to do here are our processes. And here are our guardrails. Those teams have to make decisions much more quickly that developers are actually developing code in smaller chunks of flow. They have to be able to take two hours here or 50 minutes there and do something useful. And so the tools that support us have to become tolerant of the reality of, of, of, of how we're working. So if they work in a way that it allows the team together to take as much autonomy as they can handle, um, to, uh, allow them to communicate in a way that, that, that delivers shared purpose and allows them to adapt and master new technologies, then they're in the zone in their spiritual, they'll get spiritually connected. I hope that makes sense. >>It does. I think we all could use some of that, but, you know, you talked about in the beginning and I've, I've talked to numerous companies during the pandemic on the cube about the productivity, or rather the number of hours of work has gone way up for many roles, you know, and, and, and times that they normally late at night on the weekends. So, but it's a cultural, it's a mind shift to your point about dev ops focused on velocity, sprints, sprints, sprints, and now we have to, so that cultural shift is not an easy one for developers. And even at this folks to flip so quickly, what have you seen in terms of the velocity at which businesses are able to get more of that balance between the velocity, the sprint and the agility? >>I think, I think at the core, this really comes down to management sensitivity. Um, when everybody was in the office, you could kind of see the mental health of development teams by, by watching how they work. You know, you call it management by walking around, right. We can't do that. Managers have to, um, to, to be more aware of what their teams are doing, because they're not going to see that, that developer doing a check-in at 9:00 PM on a Friday, uh, because that's what they had to do, uh, to meet the objectives. And, um, and, and they're going to have to, to, um, to find new ways to measure engagement and also potential burnout. Um, friend of mine once had, uh, had a great metric that he called the parking lot metric. It was helpful as the parking lot at nine. And how full was it at five? >>And that gives you an indication of how engaged your developers are. Um, what's the digital equivalent equivalent to the parking lot metric in the time of COVID it's commit stats, it's commit rates. It's, um, you know, the, uh, the turn rate, uh, that we have in our code. So we have this information, we may not be collecting it, but then the next question becomes, how do we use that information? Do we use that information to say, well, this team isn't delivering as at the same level of productivity as another team, do we weaponize that data or do we use that data to identify impedances in the process? Um, why isn't a team working effectively? Is it because they have higher levels of family obligations and they've got kids that, that are at home? Um, is it because they're working with, um, you know, hardware technology, and guess what, they, it's not easy to get the hardware technology into their home office because it's in the lab at the, uh, at the corporate office, uh, or they're trying to communicate, uh, you know, halfway around the world. >>And, uh, they're communicating with a, with an office lab that is also shut down and, and, and the bandwidth just doesn't enable the, the level of high bandwidth communications. So from a dev ops perspective, managers have to get much more sensitive to the, the exhaust that the dev ops tools are throwing off, but also how they're going to use that in a constructive way to, to prevent burnout. And then they also need to, if they're not already managing or monitoring or measuring the level of developer engagement, they have, they really need to start whether that's surveys around developer satisfaction, um, whether it's, you know, more regular social events, uh, where developers can kind of just get together and drink a beer and talk about what's going on in the project, uh, and monitoring who checks in and who doesn't, uh, they have to, to, um, work harder, I think, than they ever have before. >>Well, and you mentioned burnout, and that's something that I think we've all faced in this time at varying levels and it changes. And it's a real, there's a tension in the air, regardless of where you are. There's a challenge, as you mentioned, people having, you know, coworker, their kids as coworkers and fighting for bandwidth, because everyone is forced in this situation. I'd love to get your perspective on some businesses that are, that have done this well, this adaptation, what can you share in terms of some real-world examples that might inspire the audience? >>Yeah. Uh, I'll start with, uh, stack overflow. Uh, they recently published a piece in the journal of the ACM around some of the things that they had discovered. Um, you know, first of all, just a cultural philosophy. If one person is remote, everybody is remote. And you just think that way from an executive level, um, social spaces. One of the things that they talk about doing is leaving a video conference room open at a team level all day long, and the team members, you know, we'll go on mute, you know, so that they don't have to, that they don't necessarily have to be there with somebody else listening to them. But if they have a question, they can just pop off mute really quickly and ask the question. And if anybody else knows the answer, it's kind of like being in that virtual pod. Uh, if you, uh, if you will, um, even here at Forrester, one of the things that we've done is we've invested in social ceremonies. >>We've actually moved our to our team meetings on, on my analyst team from, from once every two weeks to weekly. And we have built more time in for social Ajay socialization, just so we can see, uh, how, how, how we're doing. Um, I think Microsoft has really made some good, uh, information available in how they've managed things like the onboarding process. I think I'm Amanda silver over there mentioned that a couple of weeks ago when, uh, uh, a presentation they did that, uh, uh, Microsoft onboarded over 150,000 people since the start of COVID, if you don't have good remote onboarding processes, that's going to be a disaster. Now they're not all developers, but if you think about it, um, everything from how you do the interviewing process, uh, to how you get people, their badges, to how they get their equipment. Um, security is a, is another issue that they called out typically, uh, it security, um, the security of, of developers machines ends at, at, at the corporate desktop. >>But, you know, since we're increasingly using our own machines, our own hardware, um, security organizations kind of have to extend their security policies to cover, uh, employee devices, and that's caused them to scramble a little bit. Uh, so, so the examples are out there. It's not a lot of, like, we have to do everything completely differently, but it's a lot of subtle changes that, that have to be made. Um, I'll give you another example. Um, one of the things that, that we are seeing is that, um, more and more organizations to deal with the challenges around agility, with respect to delivering software, embracing low-code tools. In fact, uh, we see about 50% of firms are using low-code tools right now. We predict it's going to be 75% by the end of next year. So figuring out how your dev ops processes support an organization that might be using Mendix or OutSystems, or, you know, the power platform building the front end of an application, like a track and trace application really, really quickly, but then hooking it up to your backend infrastructure. Does that happen completely outside the dev ops investments that you're making and the agile processes that you're making, or do you adapt your organization? Um, our hybrid teams now teams that not just have professional developers, but also have business users that are doing some development with a low-code tool. Those are the kinds of things that we have to be, um, willing to, um, to entertain in order to shift the focus a little bit more toward the agility side, I think >>Lot of obstacles, but also a lot of opportunities for businesses to really learn, pay attention here, pivot and grow, and hopefully some good opportunities for the developers and the business folks to just get better at what they're doing and learning to embrace spiritual co-location Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us on the program today. Very insightful conversation. >>My pleasure. It's it's, it's an important thing. Just remember if you're going to run that marathon, break it into 26, 10 minute runs, take a walk break in between each and you'll find that you'll get there. >>Digestible components, wise advice. Jeffery Hammond. Thank you so much for joining for Jeffrey I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching Broadcom's dev ops virtual forum >>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom, >>Continuing our conversations here at Broadcom's dev ops virtual forum. Lisa Martin here, please. To welcome back to the program, Serge Lucio, the general manager of the enterprise software division at Broadcom. Hey, Serge. Welcome. Thank you. Good to be here. So I know you were just, uh, participating with the biz ops manifesto that just happened recently. I just had the chance to talk with Jeffrey Hammond and he unlocked this really interesting concept, but I wanted to get your thoughts on spiritual co-location as really a necessity for biz ops to succeed in this unusual time in which we're living. What are your thoughts on spiritual colocation in terms of cultural change versus adoption of technologies? >>Yeah, it's a, it's, it's quite interesting, right? When we, when we think about the major impediments for, uh, for dev ops implementation, it's all about culture, right? And swore over the last 20 years, we've been talking about silos. We'd be talking about the paradox for these teams to when it went to align in many ways, it's not so much about these teams aligning, but about being in the same car in the same books, right? It's really about fusing those teams around kind of the common purpose, a common objective. So to me, the, this, this is really about kind of changing this culture where people start to look at a kind of OKR is instead of the key objective, um, that, that drives the entire team. Now, what it means in practice is really that's, uh, we need to change a lot of behaviors, right? It's not about the Yarki, it's not about roles. It's about, you know, who can do what and when, and, uh, you know, driving a bias towards action. It also means that we need, I mean, especially in this school times, it becomes very difficult, right? To drive kind of a kind of collaboration between these teams. And so I think there there's a significant role that especially tools can play in terms of providing this complex feedback from teams to, uh, to be in that preface spiritual qualification. >>Well, and it talked about culture being, it's something that, you know, we're so used to talking about dev ops with respect to velocity, all about speed here. But of course this time everything changed so quickly, but going from the physical spaces to everybody being remote really does take it. It's very different than you can't replicate it digitally, but there are collaboration tools that can kind of really be essential to help that cultural shift. Right? >>Yeah. So 2020, we, we touch to talk about collaboration in a very mundane way. Like, of course we can use zoom. We can all get into, into the same room. But the point when I think when Jeff says spiritual, co-location, it's really about, we all share the same objective. Do we, do we have a niece who, for instance, our pipeline, right? When you talk about dev ops, probably we all started thinking about this continuous delivery pipeline that basically drives the automation, the orchestration across the team, but just thinking about a pipeline, right, at the end of the day, it's all about what is the meantime to beat back to these teams. If I'm a developer and a commit code, I don't, does it take where, you know, that code to be processed through pipeline pushy? Can I get feedback if I am a finance person who is funding a product or a project, what is my meantime to beat back? >>And so a lot of, kind of a, when we think about the pipeline, I think what's been really inspiring to me in the last year or so is that there is much more of an adoption of the Dora metrics. There is way more of a focus around value stream management. And to me, this is really when we talk about collaboration, it's really a balance. How do you provide the feedback to the different stakeholders across the life cycle in a very timely matter? And that's what we would need to get to in terms of kind of this, this notion of collaboration. It's not so much about people being in the same physical space. It's about, you know, when I checked in code, you know, to do I guess the system to automatically identify what I'm going to break. If I'm about to release some allegation, how can the system help me reduce my change pillar rates? Because it's, it's able to predict that some issue was introduced in the outpatient or work product. Um, so I think there's, there's a great role of technology and AI candidate Lynch to, to actually provide that new level of collaboration. >>So we'll get to AI in a second, but I'm curious, what are some of the, of the metrics you think that really matter right now is organizations are still in some form of transformation to this new almost 100% remote workforce. >>So I'll just say first, I'm not a big fan of metrics. Um, and the reason being that, you know, you can look at a change killer rate, right, or a lead time or cycle time. And those are, those are interesting metrics, right? The trend on metric is absolutely critical, but what's more important is you get to the root cause what is taught to you lean to that metric to degrade or improve or time. And so I'm much more interested and we, you know, fruit for Broadcom. Are we more interested in understanding what are the patterns that contribute to this? So I'll give you a very mundane example. You know, we know that cycle time is heavily influenced by, um, organizational boundaries. So, you know, we talk a lot about silos, but, uh, we we've worked with many of our customers doing value stream mapping. And oftentimes what you see is that really the boundaries of your organization creates a lot of idle time, right? So to me, it's less about the metrics. I think the door metrics are a pretty, you know, valid set metrics, but what's way more important is to understand what are the antiperspirants, what are the things that we can detect through the data that actually are affecting those metrics. And, uh, I mean, over the last 10, 20 years, we've learned a lot about kind of what are, what are the antiperspirants within our large enterprise customers. And there are plenty of them. >>What are some of the things that you're seeing now with respect to patterns that have developed over the last seven to eight months? >>So I think the two areas which clearly are evolving very quickly are on kind of the front end of the life cycle, where DevOps is more and more embracing value stream management value stream mapping. Um, and I think what's interesting is that in many ways the product is becoming the new silo. Uh, the notion of a product is very difficult by itself to actually define people are starting to recognize that a value stream is not its own little kind of Island. That in reality, when I define a product, this product, oftentimes as dependencies on our products and that in fact, you're looking at kind of a network of value streams, if you will. So, so even on that, and there is clearly kind of a new sets, if you will, of anti-patterns where products are being defined as a set of OTRs, they have interdependencies and you have have a new set of silos on the operands, uh, the Abra key movement to Israel and the SRE space where, um, I think there is a cultural clash while the dev ops side is very much embracing this notion of OTRs and value stream mapping and Belgium management. >>On the other end, you have the it operations teams. We still think business services, right? For them, they think about configure items, think about infrastructure. And so, you know, it's not uncommon to see, you know, teams where, you know, the operations team is still thinking about hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands of business services. And so the, the, there is there's this boundary where, um, I think, well, SRE is being put in place. And there's lots of thinking about what kind of metrics can be fined. I think, you know, going back to culture, I think there's a lot of cultural evolution that's still required for true operations team. >>And that's a hard thing. Cultural transformation in any industry pandemic or not is a challenging thing. You talked about, uh, AI and automation of minutes ago. How do you think those technologies can be leveraged by DevOps leaders to influence their successes and their ability to collaborate, maybe see eye to eye with the SRS? >>Yeah. Um, so th you're kind of too. So even for myself, as a leader of a, you know, 1500 people organization, there's a number of things I don't see right. On a daily basis. And, um, I think the, the, the, the technologies that we have at our disposal today from the AI are able to mind a lot of data and expose a lot of, uh, issues that's as leaders we may not be aware of. And some of the, some of these are pretty kind of easy to understand, right? We all think we're agile. And yet when you, when you start to understand, for instance, uh, what is the, what is the working progress right to during the sprint? Um, when you start to analyze the data you can detect, for instance, that maybe the teams are over committed, that there is too much work in progress. >>You can start to identify kind of, interdepencies either from a technology, from a people point of view, which were hidden, uh, you can start to understand maybe the change filler rates he's he is dragging. So I believe that there is a, there's a fundamental role to be played by the tools to, to expose again, these anti parents, to, to make these things visible to the teams, to be able to even compare teams. Right. One of the things that's, that's, uh, that's amazing is now we have access to tons of data, not just from a given customer, but across a large number of customers. And so we start to compare all of these teams kind of operate, and what's working, what's not working >>Thoughts on AI and automation as, as a facilitator of spiritual co-location. >>Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's um, you know, th there's, uh, the problem we all face is the unknown, right? The, the law city, but volume variety of the data, uh, everyday we don't really necessarily completely appreciate what is the impact of our actions, right? And so, um, AI can really act as a safety net that enables us to, to understand what is the impact of our actions. Um, and so, yeah, in many ways, the ability to be informed in a timely matter to be able to interact with people on the basis of data, um, and collaborate on the data. And the actual matter, I think is, is a, is a very powerful enabler, uh, on, in that respect. I mean, I, I've seen, um, I've seen countless of times that, uh, for instance, at the SRE boundary, um, to basically show that we'll turn the quality attributes, so an incoming release, right. And exposing that to, uh, an operations person and a sorry person, and enabling that collaboration dialogue through data is a very, very powerful tool. >>Do you have any recommendations for how teams can use, you know, the SRE folks, the dev ops says can use AI and automation in the right ways to be successful rather than some ways that aren't going to be nonproductive. >>Yeah. So to me, the th there, there's a part of the question really is when, when we talk about data, there are there different ways you can use data, right? Um, so you can, you can do a lot of an analytics, predictive analytics. So I think there is a, there's a tendency, uh, to look at, let's say a, um, a specific KPI, like a, an availability KPI, or change filler rate, and to basically do a regression analysis and projecting all these things, going to happen in the future. To me, that that's, that's a, that's a bad approach. The reason why I fundamentally think it's a better approach is because we are systems. The way we develop software is, is a, is a non-leader kind of system, right? Software development is not linear nature. And so I think there's a D this is probably the worst approach is to actually focus on metrics on the other end. >>Um, if you, if you start to actually understand at a more granular level, what har, uh, which are the things which are contributing to this, right? So if you start to understand, for instance, that whenever maybe, you know, you affect a specific part of the application that translates into production issues. So we, we have, I've actually, uh, a customer who, uh, identified that, uh, over 50% of their unplanned outages were related to specific components in your architecture. And whenever these components were changed, this resulted in these plant outages. So if you start to be able to basically establish causality, right, cause an effect between kind of data across the last cycle. I think, I think this is the right way to, uh, to, to use AI. And so pharma to be, I think it's way more God could have a classification problem. What are the classes of problems that do exist and affect things as opposed to analytics, predictive, which I don't think is as powerful. >>So I mentioned in the beginning of our conversation, that just came off the biz ops manifesto. You're one of the authors of that. I want to get your thoughts on dev ops and biz ops overlapping, complimenting each other, what, from a, the biz ops perspective, what does it mean to the future of dev ops? >>Yeah, so, so it's interesting, right? If you think about DevOps, um, there's no felony document, right? Can we, we can refer to the Phoenix project. I mean, there are a set of documents which have been written, but in many ways, there's no clear definition of what dev ops is. Uh, if you go to the dev ops Institute today, you'll see that they are specific, um, trainings for instance, on value management on SRE. And so in many ways, the problem we have as an industry is that, um, there are set practices between agile dev ops, SRE Valley should management. I told, right. And we all basically talk about the same things, right. We all talk about essentially, um, accelerating in the meantime fee to feedback, but yet we don't have the common framework to talk about that. The other key thing is that we add to wait, uh, for, uh, for jeans, Jean Kim's Lascaux, um, to, uh, to really start to get into the business aspect, right? >>And for value stream mapping to start to emerge for us to start as an industry, right. It, to start to think about what is our connection with the business aspect, what's our purpose, right? And ultimately it's all about driving these business outcomes. And so to me, these ops is really about kind of, uh, putting a lens on this critical element that it's not business and it, that we in fact need to fuse business 19 that I need needs to transform itself to recognize that it's, it's this value generator, right. It's not a cost center. And so the relationship to me, it's more than BizOps provides kind of this Oliver or kind of framework, if you will. That set the context for what is the reason, uh, for it to exist. What's part of the core values and principles that it needs to embrace to, again, change from a cost center to a value center. And then we need to start to use this as a way to start to unify some of the, again, the core practices, whether it's agile, DevOps value, stream mapping SRE. Um, so, so I think over time, my hope is that we start to optimize a lot of our practices, language, um, and, uh, and cultural elements. >>Last question surgeon, the last few seconds we have here talking about this, the relation between biz ops and dev ops, um, what do you think as DevOps evolves? And as you talked to circle some of your insights, what should our audience keep their eyes on in the next six to 12 months? >>So to me, the key, the key, um, challenge for, for the industry is really around. So we were seeing a very rapid shift towards kind of, uh, product to product, right. Which we don't want to do is to recreate kind of these new silos, these hard silos. Um, so that, that's one of the big changes, uh, that I think we need to be, uh, to be really careful about, um, because it is ultimately, it is about culture. It's not about, uh, it's not about, um, kind of how we segment the work, right. And, uh, any true culture that we can overcome kind of silos. So back to, I guess, with Jeffrey's concept of, um, kind of the spiritual co-location, I think it's, it's really about that too. It's really about kind of, uh, uh, focusing on the business outcomes on kind of aligning on driving engagement across the teams, but, but not for create a, kind of a new set of silos, which instead of being vertical are going to be these horizontal products >>Crazy by surge that looking at culture as kind of a way of really, uh, uh, addressing and helping to, uh, re re reduce, replace challenges. We thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time at today's DevOps virtual forum. >>Thank you. Thanks for your time. >>I'll be right back >>From around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of devops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome to Broadcom's DevOps virtual forum, I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm joined by another Martin, very socially distanced from me all the way coming from Birmingham, England is Glynn Martin, the head of QA transformation at BT. Glynn, it's great to have you on the program. Thank you, Lisa. I'm looking forward to it. As we said before, we went live to Martins for the person one in one segment. So this is going to be an interesting segment guys, what we're going to do is Glynn's going to give us a really kind of deep inside out view of devops from an evolution perspective. So Glynn, let's start. Transformation is at the heart of what you do. It's obviously been a very transformative year. How have the events of this year affected the >> transformation that you are still responsible for driving? Yeah. Thank you, Lisa. I mean, yeah, it has been a difficult year. >>Um, and although working for BT, which is a global telecommunications company, um, I'm relatively resilient, I suppose, as a, an industry, um, through COVID obviously still has been affected and has got its challenges. And if anything, it's actually caused us to accelerate our transformation journey. Um, you know, we had to do some great things during this time around, um, you know, in the UK for our emergency and, um, health workers give them unlimited data and for vulnerable people to support them. And that's spent that we've had to deliver changes quickly. Um, but what we want to be able to do is deliver those kinds of changes quickly, but sustainably for everything that we do, not just because there's an emergency. Um, so we were already on the kind of journey to agile, but ever more important now that we are, we are able to do those, that kind of work, do it more quickly. >>Um, and that it works because the, the implications of it not working is, can be terrible in terms of you know, we've been supporting testing centers,  new hospitals to treat COVID patients. So we need to get it right. And then therefore the coverage of what we do, the quality of what we do and how quickly we do it really has taken on a new scale and what was already a very competitive market within the telco industry within the UK. Um, you know, what I would say is that, you know, we are under pressure to deliver more value, but we have small cost challenges. We have to obviously, um, deal with the fact that, you know, COVID 19 has hit most industries kind of revenues and profits. So we've got this kind of paradox between having less costs, but having to deliver more value quicker and  to higher quality. So yeah, certainly the finances is, um, on our minds and that's why we need flexible models, cost models that allow us to kind of do growth, but we get that growth by showing that we're delivering value. Um, especially in these times when there are financial challenges on companies. So one of the things that I want to ask you about, I'm again, looking at DevOps from the inside >>Out and the evolution that you've seen, you talked about the speed of things really accelerating in this last nine months or so. When we think dev ops, we think speed. But one of the things I'd love to get your perspective on is we've talked about in a number of the segments that we've done for this event is cultural change. What are some of the things that you've seen there as, as needing to get, as you said, get things right, but done so quickly to support essential businesses, essential workers. How have you seen that cultural shift? >>Yeah, I think, you know, before test teams for themselves at this part of the software delivery cycle, um, and actually now really our customers are expecting that quality and to deliver for our customers what they want, quality has to be ingrained throughout the life cycle. Obviously, you know, there's lots of buzzwords like shift left. Um, how do we do shift left testing? Um, but for me, that's really instilling quality and given capabilities shared capabilities throughout the life cycle that drive automation, drive improvements. I always say that, you know, you're only as good as your lowest common denominator. And one thing that we were finding on our dev ops journey was that we  would be trying to do certain things quick, we had automated build, automated tests. But if we were taking a weeks to create test scripts, or we were taking weeks to manually craft data, and even then when we had taken so long to do it, that the coverage was quite poor and that led to lots of defects later on in the life cycle, or even in our production environment, we just couldn't afford to do that. >>And actually, focusing on continuous testing over the last nine to 12 months has really given us the ability to deliver quickly across the whole life cycle. And therefore actually go from doing a kind of semi agile kind of thing, where we did the user stories, we did a few of the kind of agile ceremonies, but we weren't really deploying any quicker into production because our stakeholders were scared that we didn't have the same control that we had when we had more waterfall releases. And, you know, when we didn't think of ourselves. So we've done a lot of work on every aspect, um, especially from a testing point of view, every aspect of every activity, rather than just looking at automated tests, you know, whether it is actually creating the test in the first place, whether it's doing security testing earlier in the lot and performance testing in the life cycle, et cetera. So, yeah,  it's been a real key thing that for CT, for us to drive DevOps, >>Talk to me a little bit about your team. What are some of the shifts in terms of expectations that you're experiencing and how your team interacts with the internal folks from pipeline through life cycle? >>Yeah, we've done a lot of work on this. Um, you know, there's a thing that I think people will probably call it a customer experience gap, and it reminds me of a Gilbert cartoon, where we start with the requirements here and you're almost like a Chinese whisper effects and what we deliver is completely different. So we think the testing team or the delivery teams, um, know in our teeth has done a great job. This is what it said in the acceptance criteria, but then our customers are saying, well, actually that's not working this isn't working and there's this kind of gap. Um, we had a great launch this year of agile requirements, it's one of the Broadcom tools. And that was the first time in, ever since I remember actually working within BT, I had customers saying to me, wow, you know, we want more of this. >>We want more projects to have extra requirements design on it because it allowed us to actually work with the business collaboratively. I mean, we talk about collaboration, but how do we actually, you know, do that and have something that both the business and technical people can understand. And we've actually been working with the business , using agile requirements designer to really look at what the requirements are, tease out requirements we hadn't even thought of and making sure that we've got high levels of test coverage. And what we actually deliver at the end of it, not only have we been able to generate tests more quickly, but we've got much higher test coverage and also can more smartly, using the kind of AI within the tool and then some of the other kinds of pipeline tools, actually deliver to choose the right tasks, and actually doing a risk based testing approach. So that's been a great launch this year, but just the start of many kinds of things that we're doing >>Well, what I hear in that, Glynn is a lot of positives that have come out of a very challenging situation. Talk to me about it. And I liked that perspective. This is a very challenging time for everybody in the world, but it sounds like from a collaboration perspective you're right, we talk about that a lot critical with devops. But those challenges there, you guys were able to overcome those pretty quickly. What other challenges did you face and figure out quickly enough to be able to pivot so fast? >>I mean, you talked about culture. You know, BT is like most companies  So it's very siloed. You know we're still trying to work to become closer as a company. So I think there's a lot of challenges around how would you integrate with other tools? How would you integrate with the various different technologies. And BT, we have 58 different IT stacks. That's not systems, that's stacks, all of those stacks can have hundreds of systems. And we're trying to, we've got a drive at the moment, a simplified program where we're trying to you know, reduce that number to 14 stacks. And even then there'll be complexity behind the scenes that we will be challenged more and more as we go forward. How do we actually highlight that to our users? And as an it organization, how do we make ourselves leaner, so that even when we've still got some of that legacy, and we'll never fully get rid of it and that's the kind of trade off that we have to make, how do we actually deal with that and hide that from our users and drive those programs, so we can, as I say, accelerate change,  reduce that kind of waste and that kind of legacy costs out of our business. You know, the other thing as well, I'm sure telecoms is probably no different to insurance or finance. When you take the number of products that we do, and then you combine them, the permutations are tens and hundreds of thousands of products. So we, as a business are trying to simplify, we are trying to do that in an agile way. >>And haven't tried to do agile in the proper way and really actually work at pace, really deliver value. So I think what we're looking more and more at the moment is actually  more value focused. Before we used to deliver changes sometimes into production. Someone had a great idea, or it was a great idea nine months ago or 12 months ago, but actually then we ended up deploying it and then we'd look at the users, the usage of that product or that application or whatever it is, and it's not being used for six months. So we haven't got, you know, the cost of the last 12 months. We certainly haven't gotten room for that kind of waste and, you know, for not really understanding the value of changes that we are doing. So I think that's the most important thing of the moment, it's really taking that waste out. You know, there's lots of focus on things like flow management, what bits of our process are actually taking too long. And we've started on that journey, but we've got a hell of a long way to go. But that involves looking at every aspect of the software delivery cycle. >> Going from, what 58 IT stacks down to 14 or whatever it's going to be, simplifying sounds magical to everybody. It's a big challenge. What are some of the core technology capabilities that you see really as kind of essential for enabling that with this new way that you're working? >>Yeah. I mean, I think we were started on a continuous testing journey, and I think that's just the start. I mean as I say, looking at every aspect of, you know, from a QA point of view is every aspect of what we do. And it's also looking at, you know, we've started to branch into more like AI, uh, AI ops and, you know, really the full life cycle. Um, and you know, that's just a stepping stone to, you know, I think autonomics is the way forward, right. You know, all of this kind of stuff that happens, um, you know, monitoring, uh, you know, watching the systems what's happening in production, how do we feed that back? How'd you get to a point where actually we think about change and then suddenly it's in production safely, or if it's not going to safety, it's automatically backing out. So, you know, it's a very, very long journey, but if we want to, you know, in a world where the pace is in ever-increasing and the demands for the team, and, you know, with the pressures on, at the moment where we're being asked to do things, uh, you know, more efficiently and as lean as possible, we need to be thinking about every part of the process and how we put the kind of stepping stones in place to lead us to a more automated kind of, um, you know, um, the future. >>Do you feel that that planned outcomes are starting to align with what's delivered, given this massive shift that you're experiencing? >>I think it's starting to, and I think, you know, as I say, as we look at more of a value based approach, um, and, um, you know, as I say, print, this was a kind of flow management. I think that that will become ever, uh, ever more important. So, um, I think it starting to people certainly realize that, you know, teams need to work together, you know, the kind of the cousin between business and it, especially as we go to more kind of SAS based solutions, low code solutions, you know, there's not such a gap anymore, actually, some of our business partners that expense to be much more tech savvy. Um, so I think, you know, this is what we have to kind of appreciate what is its role, how do we give the capabilities, um, become more of a centers of excellence rather than actually doing mounds amounts of work. And for me, and from a testing point of view, you know, mounds and mounds of testing, actually, how do we automate that? How do we actually generate that instead of, um, create it? I think that's the kind of challenge going forward. >>What are some, as we look forward, what are some of the things that you would like to see implemented or deployed in the next, say six to 12 months as we hopefully round a corner with this pandemic? >>Yeah, I think, um, you know, certainly for, for where we are as a company from a QA perspective, we are, um, you let's start in bits that we do well, you know, we've started creating, um, continuous delivery and DevOps pipelines. Um, there's still manual aspects of that. So, you know, certainly for me, I I've challenged my team with saying how do we do an automated journey? So if I put a requirement in JIRA or rally or wherever it is and why then click a button and, you know, with either zero touch for one such, then put that into production and have confidence that, that has been done safely and that it works and what happens if it doesn't work. So, you know, that's, that's the next, um, the next few months, that's what our concentration, um, is, is about. But it's also about decision-making, you know, how do you actually understand those value judgments? >>And I think there's lots of the things dev ops, AI ops, kind of that always ask aspects of business operations. I think it's about having the information in one place to make those kinds of decisions. How does it all try and tie it together? As I say, even still with kind of dev ops, we've still got elements within my company where we've got lots of different organizations doing some, doing similar kinds of things, but they're all kind of working in silos. So I think having AI ops as it comes more and more to the fore as we go to cloud, and that's what we need to, you know, we're still very early on in our cloud journey, you know, so we need to make sure the technologies work with cloud as well as you can have, um, legacy systems, but it's about bringing that all together and having a full, visible pipeline, um, that everybody can see and make decisions. >>You said the word confidence, which jumped out at me right away, because absolutely you've got to have be able to have confidence in what your team is delivering and how it's impacting the business and those customers. Last question then for you is how would you advise your peers in a similar situation to leverage technology automation, for example, dev ops, to be able to gain the confidence that they're making the right decisions for their business? >>I think the, the, the, the, the approach that we've taken actually is not started with technology. Um, we've actually taken a human centered design, uh, as a core principle of what we do, um, within the it part of BT. So by using human centered design, that means we talk to our customers, we understand their pain points, we map out their current processes. Um, and then when we mapped out what this process does, it also understand their aspirations as well, you know? Um, and where do they want to be in six months? You know, do they want it to be, um, more agile and, you know, or do they want to, you know, is, is this a part of their business that they want to do one better? We actually then looked at why that's not running well, and then see what, what solutions are out there. >>We've been lucky that, you know, with our partnership, with Broadcom within the payer line, lots of the tools and the PLA have directly answered some of the business's problems. But I think by having those conversations and actually engaging with the business, um, you know, especially if the business hold the purse strings, which in, in, uh, you know, in some companies include not as they do there is that kind of, you know, almost by understanding their, their pain points and then starting, this is how we can solve your problem. Um, is we've, we've tended to be much more successful than trying to impose something and say, well, here's the technology that they don't quite understand. It doesn't really understand how it kind of resonates with their problems. So I think that's the heart of it. It's really about, you know, getting, looking at the data, looking at the processes, looking at where the kind of waste is. >>And then actually then looking at the right solutions. Then, as I say, continuous testing is massive for us. We've also got a good relationship with Apple towards looking at visual AI. And actually there's a common theme through that. And I mean, AI is becoming more and more prevalent. And I know, you know, sometimes what is AI and people have kind of this semantics of, is it true AI or not, but it's certainly, you know, AI machine learning is becoming more and more prevalent in the way that we work. And it's allowing us to be much more effective, be quicker in what we do and be more accurate. And, you know, whether it's finding defects running the right tests or, um, you know, being able to anticipate problems before they're happening in a production environment. >>Well, thank you so much for giving us this sort of insight outlook at dev ops sharing the successes that you're having, taking those challenges, converting them to opportunities and forgiving folks who might be in your shoes, or maybe slightly behind advice enter. They appreciate it. We appreciate your time. >>Well, it's been an absolute pleasure, really. Thank you for inviting me. I have a extremely enjoyed it. So thank you ever so much. >>Excellent. Me too. I've learned a lot for Glenn Martin. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube >>Driving revenue today means getting better, more valuable software features into the hands of your customers. If you don't do it quickly, your competitors as well, but going faster without quality creates risks that can damage your brand destroy customer loyalty and cost millions to fix dev ops from Broadcom is a complete solution for balancing speed and risk, allowing you to accelerate the flow of value while minimizing the risk and severity of critical issues with Broadcom quality becomes integrated across the entire DevOps pipeline from planning to production, actionable insights, including our unique readiness score, provide a three 60 degree view of software quality giving you visibility into potential issues before they become disasters. Dev ops leaders can manage these risks with tools like Canary deployments tested on a small subset of users, or immediately roll back to limit the impact of defects for subsequent cycles. Dev ops from Broadcom makes innovation improvement easier with integrated planning and continuous testing tools that accelerate the flow of value product requirements are used to automatically generate tests to ensure complete quality coverage and tests are easily updated. >>As requirements change developers can perform unit testing without ever leaving their preferred environment, improving efficiency and productivity for the ultimate in shift left testing the platform also integrates virtual services and test data on demand. Eliminating two common roadblocks to fast and complete continuous testing. When software is ready for the CIC CD pipeline, only DevOps from Broadcom uses AI to prioritize the most critical and relevant tests dramatically improving feedback speed with no decrease in quality. This release is ready to go wherever you are in your DevOps journey. Broadcom helps maximize innovation velocity while managing risk. So you can deploy ideas into production faster and release with more confidence from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Hi guys. Welcome back. So we have discussed the current state and the near future state of dev ops and how it's going to evolve from three unique perspectives. In this last segment, we're going to open up the floor and see if we can come to a shared understanding of where dev ops needs to go in order to be successful next year. So our guests today are, you've seen them all before Jeffrey Hammond is here. The VP and principal analyst serving CIO is at Forester. We've also Serge Lucio, the GM of Broadcom's enterprise software division and Glenn Martin, the head of QA transformation at BT guys. Welcome back. Great to have you all three together >>To be here. >>All right. So we're very, we're all very socially distanced as we've talked about before. Great to have this conversation. So let's, let's start with one of the topics that we kicked off the forum with Jeff. We're going to start with you spiritual co-location that's a really interesting topic that we've we've uncovered, but how much of the challenge is truly cultural and what can we solve through technology? Jeff, we'll start with you then search then Glen Jeff, take it away. >>Yeah, I think fundamentally you can have all the technology in the world and if you don't make the right investments in the cultural practices in your development organization, you still won't be effective. Um, almost 10 years ago, I wrote a piece, um, where I did a bunch of research around what made high-performance teams, software delivery teams, high performance. And one of the things that came out as part of that was that these teams have a high level of autonomy. And that's one of the things that you see coming out of the agile manifesto. Let's take that to today where developers are on their own in their own offices. If you've got teams where the team itself had a high level of autonomy, um, and they know how to work, they can make decisions. They can move forward. They're not waiting for management to tell them what to do. >>And so what we have seen is that organizations that embraced autonomy, uh, and got their teams in the right place and their teams had the information that they needed to make the right decisions have actually been able to operate pretty well, even as they've been remote. And it's turned out to be things like, well, how do we actually push the software that we've created into production that would become the challenge is not, are we writing the right software? And that's why I think the term spiritual co-location is so important because even though we may be physically distant, we're on the same plane, we're connected from a, from, from a, a shared purpose. Um, you know, surgeon, I worked together a long, long time ago. So it's been what almost 15, 16 years since we were at the same place. And yet I would say there's probably still a certain level of spiritual co-location between us, uh, because of the shared purposes that we've had in the past and what we've seen in the industry. And that's a really powerful tool, uh, to build on. So what do tools play as part of that, to the extent that tools make information available, to build shared purpose on to the extent that they enable communication so that we can build that spiritual co-location to the extent that they reinforce the culture that we want to put in place, they can be incredibly valuable, especially when, when we don't have the luxury of physical locate physical co-location. Okay. That makes sense. >>It does. I shouldn't have introduced us. This last segment is we're all spiritually co-located or it's a surge, clearly you're still spiritually co located with jump. Talk to me about what your thoughts are about spiritual of co-location the cultural impact and how technology can move it forward. >>Yeah. So I think, well, I'm going to sound very similar to Jeff in that respect. I think, you know, it starts with kind of a shared purpose and the other understanding, Oh, individuals teams, uh, contributed to kind of a business outcome, what is our shared goal or shared vision? What's what is it we're trying to achieve collectively and keeping it kind of aligned to that? Um, and so, so it's really starts with that now, now the big challenge, always these over the last 20 years, especially in large organization, there's been specialization of roles and functions. And so we, we all that started to basically measure which we do, uh, on a daily basis using metrics, which oftentimes are completely disconnected from kind of a business outcome or purpose. We, we kind of reverted back to, okay, what is my database all the time? What is my cycle time? >>Right. And, and I think, you know, which we can do or where we really should be focused as an industry is to start to basically provide a lens or these different stakeholders to look at what they're doing in the context of kind of these business outcomes. So, um, you know, probably one of my, um, favorites experience was to actually weakness at one of a large financial institution. Um, you know, Tuesday Golder's unquote development and operations staring at the same data, right. Which was related to, you know, in calming changes, um, test execution results, you know, Coverity coverage, um, official liabilities and all the all ran. It could have a direction level links. And that's when you start to put these things in context and represent that to you in a way that these different stakeholders can, can look at from their different lens. And, uh, and it can start to basically communicate and, and understand have they joined our company to, uh, to, to that kind of common view or objective. >>And Glen, we talked a lot about transformation with you last time. What are your thoughts on spiritual colocation and the cultural part, the technology impact? >>Yeah, I mean, I agree with Jeffrey that, you know, um, the people and culture, the most important thing, actually, that's why it's really important when you're transforming to have partners who have the same vision as you, um, who, who you can work with, have the same end goal in mind. And w I've certainly found that with our, um, you know, continuing relationship with Broadcom, what it also does though, is although, you know, tools can accelerate what you're doing and can join consistency. You know, we've seen within simplify, which is BTS flagship transformation program, where we're trying to, as it can, it says simplify the number of systems stacks that we have, the number of products that we have actually at the moment, we've got different value streams within that program who have got organizational silos. We were trying to rewrite, rewrite the wheel, um, who are still doing things manually. >>So in order to try and bring that consistency, we need the right tools that actually are at an enterprise grade, which can be flexible to work with in BT, which is such a complex and very dev, uh, different environments, depending on what area of BT you're in, whether it's a consumer, whether it's a mobile area, whether it's large global or government organizations, you know, we found that we need tools that can, um, drive that consistency, but also flex to Greenfield brownfield kind of technologies as well. So it's really important that as I say, for a number of different aspects, that you have the right partner, um, to drive the right culture, I've got the same vision, but also who have the tool sets to help you accelerate. They can't do that on their own, but they can help accelerate what it is you're trying to do in it. >>And a really good example of that is we're trying to shift left, which is probably a, quite a bit of a buzz phrase in their kind of testing world at the moment. But, you know, I could talk about things like continuous delivery direct to when a ball comes tools and it has many different features to it, but very simply on its own, it allows us to give the visibility of what the teams are doing. And once we have that visibility, then we can talk to the teams, um, around, you know, could they be doing better component testing? Could they be using some virtualized services here or there? And that's not even the main purpose of continuous delivery director, but it's just a reason that tools themselves can just give greater visibility of have much more intuitive and insightful conversations with other teams and reduce those organizational silos. >>Thanks, Ben. So we'd kind of sum it up, autonomy collaboration tools that facilitate that. So let's talk now about metrics from your perspectives. What are the metrics that matter? Jeff, >>I'm going to go right back to what Glenn said about data that provides visibility that enables us to, to make decisions, um, with shared purpose. And so business value has to be one of the first things that we look at. Um, how do we assess whether we have built something that is valuable, you know, that could be sales revenue, it could be net promoter score. Uh, if you're not selling what you've built, it could even be what the level of reuse is within your organization or other teams picking up the services, uh, that you've created. Um, one of the things that I've begun to see organizations do is to align value streams with customer journeys and then to align teams with those value streams. So that's one of the ways that you get to a shared purpose, cause we're all trying to deliver around that customer journey, the value with it. >>And we're all measured on that. Um, there are flow metrics which are really important. How long does it take us to get a new feature out from the time that we conceive it to the time that we can run our first experiments with it? There are quality metrics, um, you know, some of the classics or maybe things like defect, density, or meantime to response. Um, one of my favorites came from a, um, a company called ultimate software where they looked at the ratio of defects found in production to defects found in pre production and their developers were in fact measured on that ratio. It told them that guess what quality is your job to not just the test, uh, departments, a group, the fourth level that I think is really important, uh, in, in the current, uh, situation that we're in is the level of engagement in your development organization. >>We used to joke that we measured this with the parking lot metric helpful was the parking lot at nine. And how full was it at five o'clock. I can't do that anymore since we're not physically co-located, but what you can do is you can look at how folks are delivering. You can look at your metrics in your SCM environment. You can look at, uh, the relative rates of churn. Uh, you can look at things like, well, are our developers delivering, uh, during longer periods earlier in the morning, later in the evening, are they delivering, uh, you know, on the weekends as well? Are those signs that we might be heading toward a burnout because folks are still running at sprint levels instead of marathon levels. Uh, so all of those in combination, uh, business value, uh, flow engagement in quality, I think form the backbone of any sort of, of metrics, uh, a program. >>The second thing that I think you need to look at is what are we going to do with the data and the philosophy behind the data is critical. Um, unfortunately I see organizations where they weaponize the data and that's completely the wrong way to look at it. What you need to do is you need to say, you need to say, how is this data helping us to identify the blockers? The things that aren't allowing us to provide the right context for people to do the right thing. And then what do we do to remove those blockers, uh, to make sure that we're giving these autonomous teams the context that they need to do their job, uh, in a way that creates the most value for the customers. >>Great advice stuff, Glenn, over to your metrics that matter to you that really make a big impact. And, and, and also how do you measure quality kind of following onto the advice that Jeff provided? >>That's some great advice. Actually, he talks about value. He talks about flow. Both of those things are very much on my mind at the moment. Um, but there was this, I listened to a speaker, uh, called me Kirsten a couple of months ago. It taught very much around how important flow management is and removing, you know, and using that to remove waste, to understand in terms of, you know, making software changes, um, what is it that's causing us to do it longer than we need to. So where are those areas where it takes long? So I think that's a very important thing for us. It's even more basic than that at the moment, we're on a journey from moving from kind of a waterfall to agile. Um, and the problem with moving from waterfall to agile is with waterfall, the, the business had a kind of comfort that, you know, everything was tested together and therefore it's safer. >>Um, and with agile, there's that kind of, you know, how do we make sure that, you know, if we're doing things quick and we're getting stuff out the door that we give that confidence, um, that that's ready to go, or if there's a risk that we're able to truly articulate what that risk is. So there's a bit about release confidence, um, and some of the metrics around that and how, how healthy those releases are, and actually saying, you know, we spend a lot of money, um, um, an investment setting up our teams, training our teams, are we actually seeing them deliver more quickly and are we actually seeing them deliver more value quickly? So yeah, those are the two main things for me at the moment, but I think it's also about, you know, generally bringing it all together, the dev ops, you know, we've got the kind of value ops AI ops, how do we actually bring that together to so we can make quick decisions and making sure that we are, um, delivering the biggest bang for our buck, absolutely biggest bang for the buck, surge, your thoughts. >>Yeah. So I think we all agree, right? It starts with business metrics, flow metrics. Um, these are kind of the most important metrics. And ultimately, I mean, one of the things that's very common across a highly functional teams is engagements, right? When, when you see a team that's highly functioning, that's agile, that practices DevOps every day, they are highly engaged. Um, that that's, that's definitely true. Now the, you know, back to, I think, uh, Jeff's point on weaponization of metrics. One of the key challenges we see is that, um, organizations traditionally have been kind of, uh, you know, setting up benchmarks, right? So what is a good cycle time? What is a good lead time? What is a good meantime to repair? The, the problem is that this is very contextual, right? It varies. It's going to vary quite a bit, depending on the nature of application and system. >>And so one of the things that we really need to evolve, um, as an industry is to understand that it's not so much about those flow metrics is about our, these four metrics ultimately contribute to the business metric to the business outcome. So that's one thing. The second aspect, I think that's oftentimes misunderstood is that, you know, when you have a bad cycle time or, or, or what you perceive as being a buy cycle time or better quality, the problem is oftentimes like all, do you go and explore why, right. What is the root cause of this? And I think one of the key challenges is that we tend to focus a lot of time on metrics and not on the eye type patterns, which are pretty common across the industry. Um, you know, if you look at, for instance, things like lead time, for instance, it's very common that, uh, organizational boundaries are going to be a key contributor to badly time. >>And so I think that there is, you know, the only the metrics there is, I think a lot of work that we need to do in terms of classifying, descend type patterns, um, you know, back to you, Jeff, I think you're one of the cool offers of waterscrumfall as a, as, as a key pattern, the industry or anti-spatter. Um, but waterscrumfall right is a key one, right? And you will detect that through kind of a defect arrival rates. That's where that looks like an S-curve. And so I think it's beyond kind of the, the metrics is what do you do with those metrics? >>Right? I'll tell you a search. One of the things that is really interesting to me in that space is I think those of us had been in industry for a long time. We know the anti-patterns cause we've seen them in our career maybe in multiple times. And one of the things that I think you could see tooling do is perhaps provide some notification of anti-patterns based on the telemetry that comes in. I think it would be a really interesting place to apply, uh, machine learning and reinforcement learning techniques. Um, so hopefully something that we'd see in the future with dev ops tools, because, you know, as a manager that, that, you know, may be only a 10 year veteran or 15 year veteran, you may be seeing these anti-patterns for the first time. And it would sure be nice to know what to do, uh, when they start to pop up, >>That would right. Insight, always helpful. All right, guys, I would like to get your final thoughts on this. The one thing that you believe our audience really needs to be on the lookout for and to put on our agendas for the next 12 months, Jeff will go back to you. Okay. >>I would say look for the opportunities that this disruption presents. And there are a couple that I see, first of all, uh, as we shift to remote central working, uh, we're unlocking new pools of talent, uh, we're, it's possible to implement, uh, more geographic diversity. So, so look to that as part of your strategy. Number two, look for new types of tools. We've seen a lot of interest in usage of low-code tools to very quickly develop applications. That's potentially part of a mainstream strategy as we go into 2021. Finally, make sure that you embrace this idea that you are supporting creative workers that agile and dev ops are the peanut butter and chocolate to support creative, uh, workers with algorithmic capabilities, >>Peanut butter and chocolate Glen, where do we go from there? What are, what's the one silver bullet that you think folks to be on the lookout for now? I, I certainly agree that, um, low, low code is, uh, next year. We'll see much more low code we'd already started going, moving towards a more of a SAS based world, but low code also. Um, I think as well for me, um, we've still got one foot in the kind of cow camp. Um, you know, we'll be fully trying to explore what that means going into the next year and exploiting the capabilities of cloud. But I think the last, um, the last thing for me is how do you really instill quality throughout the kind of, um, the, the life cycle, um, where, when I heard the word scrum fall, it kind of made me shut it because I know that's a problem. That's where we're at with some of our things at the moment we need to get beyond that. We need >>To be releasing, um, changes more frequently into production and actually being a bit more brave and having the confidence to actually do more testing in production and go straight to production itself. So expect to see much more of that next year. Um, yeah. Thank you. I haven't got any food analogies. Unfortunately we all need some peanut butter and chocolate. All right. It starts to take us home. That's what's that nugget you think everyone needs to have on their agendas? >>That's interesting. Right. So a couple of days ago we had kind of a latest state of the DevOps report, right? And if you read through the report, it's all about the lost city, but it's all about sweet. We still are receiving DevOps as being all about speed. And so to me, the key advice is in order to create kind of a spiritual collocation in order to foster engagement, we have to go back to what is it we're trying to do collectively. We have to go back to tie everything to the business outcome. And so for me, it's absolutely imperative for organizations to start to plot their value streams, to understand how they're delivering value into aligning everything they do from a metrics to deliver it, to flow to those metrics. And only with that, I think, are we going to be able to actually start to really start to align kind of all these roles across the organizations and drive, not just speed, but business outcomes, >>All about business outcomes. I think you guys, the three of you could write a book together. So I'll give you that as food for thought. Thank you all so much for joining me today and our guests. I think this was an incredibly valuable fruitful conversation, and we appreciate all of you taking the time to spiritually co-located with us today, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you. Thank you for Jeff Hammond serves Lucio and Glen Martin. I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching the broad cops Broadcom dev ops virtual forum.

(upbeat music) >> Facilitator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with other leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Java is the world's most popular programming language. And it remains the leading application development platform. But what's the status of Java? What a customers doing? And very importantly, what is Oracle's and the community strategy with respect to Java? Welcome everybody to this Java power panel on theCUBE. I'm your host, Dave Vellante. Manish Gupta here, he's the Vice President of Global Marketing at Java for Oracle, Donald Smith is also on the panel, and he's the Senior Director of Product Management at Oracle and we're joined by David Floyd who is a CTO of Wikibon Research and has done a number of research activities on this very topic. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Manish, I want to start with you. Can you help us understand really what dig into Oracle strategy with respect to Java. The technology, the licensing, the support. How has that evolved over time? Take us through that. >> Dave, with 51 billion JVMs deployed worldwide, Java has truly cemented its position as the language of innovation and the technology world. There's no question about that. In fact, I like to say it's really the language of empowerment. Given the the impact it has had numerous applications ranging from the Mars Rover to genomics and everything in between. As Oracle acquired sign over 10 years ago, it's really kept it front of mind, two aspects of what we want to do with the technology and the platform. The first one was to ensure there was broad accessibility to the technology and the platform for anybody that wanted to benefit from it. And the second one was to ensure that the ecosystem remained vibrant and thriving throughout. I managed to do both. And underpinning these two objectives were really three pillars of our strategy. The first one was around trust, ensuring that openness and transparency of the technology was as was before continued to be the case going forward. The second element of that within the trust pillar was to ensure that as enterprises invested in the technology that investment was protected, it was not, you invest and you lose over a period of time in a backward compatibility, interoperability, certifications, were all foundational to the platform itself to the features, to the innovation moving forward. And more recently as we have rethought to the support, the licensing and the overall structure of the pricing that we have ensured that ultimately the trust comes along in those dimensions as well. So the launch of the Java subscription came along with, pay as you go model, it's a transparent pricing structure and discuss structure published on the website. So you can go and see what it would cost for the desktop on servers or cloud deployment. So those were the things that made kind of the first pillar happen. The second one was Dunno innovation. Over the last 25 years, Java has stood the test of time. It has delivered the needs of today while preparing for the future. And that remains the case. It is not something that has sort of focused on the fat of the day and the hot thing for the day, but really more important that it is prepared to deal with the mission critical, massive scale deployments that can run for years, for decades, in some cases. And keeping that in mind, Oracle has continued to put more and more technology into the open source world with every release that comes out, you can see 80 plus percent of the contributions come from Oracle. So that's the second pillar around innovation. And the third piece of the strategy has been around predictability. Ensuring that Java, the technology and platform perform as advertised, and that goes into the feature releases, it goes into the release process, it goes into the fact that you were broadly within the open JDK environment for developing and executing the roadmap. From a CIO standpoint, it's important to know that the technology used to develop your applications has talent around. And your, if you're going to develop something like Java, you'll find the right Java engineers to do the job. That is not a question, right? And so that's part of predictability. And finally, again with the change in the six months release cadence that came about three years ago, with the release of Java 10, we've really made sure that it's not, no, a bunch of things come about. You don't know when they're going to be released, but you know, like clockwork, you'll have a new Java list every six months. And that's been the case every March and September, since Java 10, you've had a new release of Java with certain features that come up and we just launched Java 15. So trust innovation predictability, have really been the three pillars on which we've executed the strategy for Java. >> Excellent, thank you for that intro, and we're going to get into it now. I'm glad you mentioned the sun acquisition. I said at the time that Java was the linchpin of that acquisition, many people, of course, we looked at the integration piece with the hardware, but it was really Java and the capabilities that it brings. And of course, a lot of Oracle software written in Java and not the least of which is a fusion. But now let's get into the components of this. And I want to talk a little bit about the methodology of this and going to call on you David Floyer. But essentially my understanding is that Wikibon went through and David, you led this, you did a technical deep dive, which you always do, did a number of in depth interviews with Java customers. And then of course you also did a web survey and then you built from that data and economic model. So you can try to understand the sort of dimensions of the financials if you will. So what were your key findings there? >> So the key findings were that Java was in a good state that people were happy with the Java. The second key finding is that the business case itself for using the Oracle services, the subscription services was good. It didn't mean to say that that wasn't for every company, the right way to do it, but there was a very good return on that. And the third area was that there was a degree of confidence that the new way of doing things, the six-month cycle, as opposed to the three-year cycle was overall a benefit to the rate of change, the ability for them to introduce new features quickly. >> Okay, well, I mean, you know, and I read that research. And to me my takeaways where I saw the continued relevance of Java, which is kind of goes without saying, but a lot of times it gets lost in the headlines. That subscription piece is key. We're going to get into some of the economics as to how that affects customers and it saves you money. And the other piece was the roadmap becoming more transparent. And I don't want to dig into that a little bit, but before we do, let's get into that innovation component Manish, mentioned that several times, but Don, I want to go to you guys. We have a slide on the various components of the innovation. If you would bring this up and Don I wonder if you could talk to this and give us some examples if you would. >> Yeah, sure. So we were the number one development platform for the last 25 years. We want to be the number one development platform for the next 25 years. And in order to do that, we have to be constantly innovating and constantly innovating not only the business side in terms of the subscription and the support offerings and commercial features like Manish was talking about, but also the platform in general. And so the way we like to talk about innovation as we break it down by these pillars that you can see on the slide. And so the first pillar is continuous improvements to the language. So this is watching developers trying to write the same piece of code over and over again, and us asking, can we make you more efficient? Can we give you more language features that reduce the amount of boilerplate that you have to write? The second pillar is a project that we just announced a few months ago called Leyden. And the idea with Leyden is addressing the longterm pinpoints of Java slow startup time and time to peak performance. So if you go back 10 years ago, everybody knows about Java as an enterprise platform, Java EE application servers. They all had the notion of being very long lived. And so Java at that time would be optimized towards long lived applications, startup, and performance. Where if it took a little while to get there, it didn't matter as long as when it got there, it was super fast. And so we're trying to get that peak performance faster in the world of microservices. In a similar vein with project loom, we're looking at making concurrency simple again, looking at how developers are doing more reactive style programming and realizing that the threading model needs to be rethought from the ground up, that project is looking really, really good. Then we have project Panama. Project Panama is all about making it easier to connect Java with native libraries. Valhalla is all about improving, there's a couple of benefits, but it's all about improving memory density and being able to access and iterate and operate over primitive data types at super fast speeds by better optimizing how that information is stored in memory. And then the other pillar of the final pillar that we have been working on from an innovation perspective is ZGC. We introduced a new garbage collector technology a few years ago, G1GCE a generational garbage collector with the eye towards making garbage collection in Java pause lists. So if you, again, if you go back in time and look at the history of Java, memory management is awesome, but there's always that cost and risk of a garbage collection cycle, taking a bit of time away from a critical application. And ZGC is all about getting rid of that. So lots of innovation, lots of different pillars going on right now. >> Awesome, I'm impressed. There's something after Valhalla. I thought that was Nirvana. (laughing) But now, and these are all open source projects, right? And you guys obviously provide committers, there are other people in the open source world who provide that, is that correct Don? >> Yeah, that's correct. We have about 80% of the contributions in open JDK. We are the stewards of open JDK and lead the project. Most of the pillars I talked about here are you know Oracle folks working on that. >> Awesome. Okay, let's get into some of the data. David, I want to come back to you and talk about some of the survey results guys, if you bring up that next slide. Why David, why do people upgrade? What are the drivers? It's really talks to the large companies and what's different from the small company or mid-size companies? What are the takeaways here? >> David: Well, so this is interesting, and as you might expect, large enterprises, have very concerned about application stability. Whereas midsize or enterprises are much more concerned about the performance, making sure that the performance is good. They are both concerned about reliable performance and security, but it's interesting that from a regulation point of view, mid-size companies really want to make sure that they are obeying the regulations, that they are meeting those. Whereas larger organizations usually have their own security and regulation functions looking very hard at these things. So that looking less to the platform to provide those than their own people. >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think the midsize organizations don't have as many people running around taking care of security and it's harder for them to keep up with the edicts of the organization. So they want to stay more current. Don, I wonder if you can add anything to this data from an innovation standpoint. >> Yeah, well, and from a product management standpoint, and what we see here is when you look at just going from fortune 500 to global 2000, you see things that are important to one or less so than the other. You can extrapolate that all the way down to a small company or a startup. And that's why providing the most flexibility in terms of an offering to allow people to decide what, when, where, and how they would be going to upgrade their software so they can do it when they want, and on their own terms. You can see that that becomes really important. And also making sure that we're providing innovation in a broad way so that it'll appeal both to the enterprise and again extrapolating that forward down to even very small startups. >> You know, David, the other thing that struck me in the data, if we bring up that other piece is the upgrade strategy, and there was a stark difference between large enterprises and midsize organizations. Talk to this data, if you would. >> Yes, this is again, a pretty stark difference between them. When you're looking at large enterprises, they really wants stability and they don't want to upgrade so often. Whereas mid-size enterprises, are much more willing to both upgrade on a regular cadence and really have a much more up-to-date, or have always have the latest software. They're driving smaller applications, but they're much more agile about their approach to it. Again, emphasizing what Don was saying about the smaller enterprises wanting a different strategy and a different way of doing things than large enterprises. >> So Manish this says to me that you got it right from a strategy standpoint. I mean, any color you can add here. >> Yeah, it's very intuitive that whether you're a large organization, a mid-sized enterprise or a small business, right? You face competitive pressures, your dynamics are unique. What you're able to do with the resources, what you desire to do at the pace that is appropriate for your environment, are really unique to you, and to try to force one model across any one size or across any set of dynamics is just not appropriate. So we've always felt that giving the enterprises and the organization, the ability to move at the pace of their business is the right approach. And so when we designed the Oracle Java SE subscription, we truly have that front and center in our thought process. And that structure seems to be working well. >> David, what I like about the way you do research is you actually build an economic model. A lot of these business value projects. I know this well, having been in the business a long time, they'll go out to ask the customer what they got, and then the customer said, "Well, I got a 111% ROI, and boom, that's what it is. You actually construct an economic model, you bring in rules of thumb, it allows you to do what ifs you can test that model and calibrate it against the real world. So I commend you on that. You've done a lot of hard work there, but bottom line at forests, I mean, let's bring up the economics. I mean, that's what people ultimately want to know. Does this save me money? What's the bottom line here? >> Yeah. Yes, that's a very important question. And the way we go about it is to ask the questions so that we can extract from those questions, how much effort it took, for example, to upgrade things, how much effort it took for important applications and not so important applications. So we have a very detailed model driven by the survey itself and in the back of the research, I'm a great believer that you should be able to follow exactly what the research said, what the survey said and how it was applied to the model. So, and what were you focused on was, what was the return of using the Java subscription service or taking an upgrade every six months? Those were the two ways that we looked at it. And for large enterprises, the four-year costs for the enterprise was $11 million, but for taking the additional subscription service, and this was well well covered, the payback is within a year, well covered by the lower costs of managing in a lot of systems and environment. And we found a very similar result on those midsize services. There, it was 3 million, and again, they got that back the year in terms of payback. So, but that's one alternative. There is another alternative that may be worthwhile the extra money if you really want to be up-to-date and or if you want to drive a much more aggressive strategy for your organization. >> So these are huge numbers. I mean, he's talking about 30% savings on average for large and mid-sized enterprises in the percentage terms, but the absolute dollars are actually enormous. So, you know, large companies here, we're talking about $20 billion enterprises with 500 or more Java applications. And mid-size is, you're talking about a couple, two, $3 billion companies. Manish, what are you saying in the customer base in terms of the economics? >> Yeah, you know anytime an organization is looking at an offering and a solution, they want to make sure just giving them the value. And we all know that the priorities of businesses have, they want to focus on that. Managing the Java estate is important, but is it the thing where they want to invest the dollars? And if they are investing the dollars, are they getting the return? We find that if you can give the enterprises an ability where they can see the return, the cost is right for them. And if you can mirror that and you can map it also with reduce risk, then you put the right formula. And with the subscription, they're able to not only see the cost savings that the model indicates clearly, but they're also able to reduce the risk in terms of security protection and other things. So it's a really, really good combination for the enterprises. >> Well, thank you, I wonder Manish, if you could bring us home here and just kind of summarize from your thoughts, everything you've heard today, what are the key takeaways? >> You know Java has been around for 25 years, and we certainly believe it's really positioned well for what's required today. And perhaps more importantly, what is needed for the next decade and for the next 25 years. Having now served thousands of customers with the Java subscription, it's clear that it is meeting the needs of fortune 10 organizations all the way down to a 5% development house, for example. What we're hearing from across the board is really Java has been the go to platform and it continues to be the go to platform for mission critical development and deployment. However, the complexity as the Java estate becomes large when you've got tens to hundreds, in some cases over a thousand applications running across the enterprise, that complexity can be daunting. And the Java subscription is really serving the needs in three ways. One, it's getting them the best of class support from Oracle, which is a steward of Java, the company that is generating over 80% of innovation with every single release. The second thing they're getting the business flexibility. So they can move at the pace that works for them. And therapies is as a business model as indicated that they're getting it at a lower cost while having your list. So the combination of these things is the reason why we're seeing very high renewal rates, why we're seeing thousands of organization take it over. And I want to wrap it up by saying one final thing, that you can count on Oracle to be the transparent, to be the right steward or both technology innovation, as well as to ensuring the support for the vast ecosystem whether it's libraries, frameworks, user groups, educational services and so on. So Java is here, has been here for the enterprise, large and small, and it's ready for the next generation as well. >> Great, thank you for that. Well, one more question. What's the call to action? If I'm a mid-sized company or a large company, I've made investments in Java, what, what should I do next? >> I would say, take a look at the Oracle subscription. It will reduce your rates. It'll save you a cost and it'll give you a lower risk parameter for your organization. >> Great, nice and crisp, I like it. If you like, if you guys don't object, I'm going to give you my summary. I've been taking notes this whole time and so, we've explored two options. Customers can do it yourself or go with the subscription on a regular cadence. It's very clear to me that that Java remains relevant as we set up top. It's the world's most popular programming language we know about all that. The ecosystem is really moving fast. Of course, with the stewardship of Oracle cloud microservices, the development of, of modern applications. I think that the directional changes that Manish you guys and, and Don and Oracle have made were really the right call. The research that David you did, shows that it's serving customers better. It lowers costs, it's cutting down risk particularly for the mid-sized companies that maybe are, or don't have the security infrastructure and the talent to go chase those problems. And I love the roadmap piece. The more transparent roadmap really is going to give the industry and the community much more confidence to invest and move forward. So guys, thanks very much for coming on this CUBE Java power panel. It was great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, I thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante, for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

(upbeat music) >> Facilitator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with other leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Java is the world's most popular programming language. And it remains the leading application development platform. But what's the status of Java? What a customers doing? And very importantly, what is Oracle's and the community strategy with respect to Java? Welcome everybody to this Java power panel on theCUBE. I'm your host, Dave Vellante. Manish Gupta here, he's the Vice President of Global Marketing at Java for Oracle, Donald Smith is also on the panel, and he's the Senior Director of Product Management at Oracle and we're joined by David Floyd who is a CTO of Wikibon Research and has done a number of research activities on this very topic. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Manish, I want to start with you. Can you help us understand really what dig into Oracle strategy with respect to Java. The technology, the licensing, the support. How has that evolved over time? Take us through that. >> Dave, with 51 billion JVMs deployed worldwide, Java has truly cemented its position as the language of innovation and the technology world. There's no question about that. In fact, I like to say it's really the language of empowerment. Given the the impact it has had numerous applications ranging from the Mars Rover to genomics and everything in between. As Oracle acquired sign over 10 years ago, it's really kept it front of mind, two aspects of what we want to do with the technology and the platform. The first one was to ensure there was broad accessibility to the technology and the platform for anybody that wanted to benefit from it. And the second one was to ensure that the ecosystem remained vibrant and thriving throughout. I managed to do both. And underpinning these two objectives were really three pillars of our strategy. The first one was around trust, ensuring that openness and transparency of the technology was as was before continued to be the case going forward. The second element of that within the trust pillar was to ensure that as enterprises invested in the technology that investment was protected, it was not, you invest and you lose over a period of time in a backward compatibility, interoperability, certifications, were all foundational to the platform itself to the features, to the innovation moving forward. And more recently as we have rethought to the support, the licensing and the overall structure of the pricing that we have ensured that ultimately the trust comes along in those dimensions as well. So the launch of the Java subscription came along with, pay as you go model, it's a transparent pricing structure and discuss structure published on the website. So you can go and see what it would cost for the desktop on servers or cloud deployment. So those were the things that made kind of the first pillar happen. The second one was Dunno innovation. Over the last 25 years, Java has stood the test of time. It has delivered the needs of today while preparing for the future. And that remains the case. It is not something that has sort of focused on the fat of the day and the hot thing for the day, but really more important that it is prepared to deal with the mission critical, massive scale deployments that can run for years, for decades, in some cases. And keeping that in mind, Oracle has continued to put more and more technology into the open source world with every release that comes out, you can see 80 plus percent of the contributions come from Oracle. So that's the second pillar around innovation. And the third piece of the strategy has been around predictability. Ensuring that Java, the technology and platform perform as advertised, and that goes into the feature releases, it goes into the release process, it goes into the fact that you were broadly within the open JDK environment for developing and executing the roadmap. From a CIO standpoint, it's important to know that the technology used to develop your applications has talent around. And your, if you're going to develop something like Java, you'll find the right Java engineers to do the job. That is not a question, right? And so that's part of predictability. And finally, again with the change in the six months release cadence that came about three years ago, with the release of Java 10, we've really made sure that it's not, no, a bunch of things come about. You don't know when they're going to be released, but you know, like clockwork, you'll have a new Java list every six months. And that's been the case every March and September, since Java 10, you've had a new release of Java with certain features that come up and we just launched Java 15. So trust innovation predictability, have really been the three pillars on which we've executed the strategy for Java. >> Excellent, thank you for that intro, and we're going to get into it now. I'm glad you mentioned the sun acquisition. I said at the time that Java was the linchpin of that acquisition, many people, of course, we looked at the integration piece with the hardware, but it was really Java and the capabilities that it brings. And of course, a lot of Oracle software written in Java and not the least of which is a fusion. But now let's get into the components of this. And I want to talk a little bit about the methodology of this and going to call on you David Floria. But essentially my understanding is that Wikibon went through and David, you led this, you did a technical deep dive, which you always do, did a number of in depth interviews with Java customers. And then of course you also did a web survey and then you built from that data and economic model. So you can try to understand the sort of dimensions of the financials if you will. So what were your key findings there? >> So the key findings were that Java was in a good state that people were happy with the Java. The second key finding is that the business case itself for using the Oracle services, the subscription services was good. It didn't mean to say that that wasn't for every company, the right way to do it, but there was a very good return on that. And the third area was that there was a degree of confidence that the new way of doing things, the six-month cycle, as opposed to the three-year cycle was overall a benefit to the rate of change, the ability for them to introduce new features quickly. >> Okay, well, I mean, you know, and I read that research. And to me my takeaways where I saw the continued relevance of Java, which is kind of goes without saying, but a lot of times it gets lost in the headlines. That subscription piece is key. We're going to get into some of the economics as to how that affects customers and it saves you money. And the other piece was the roadmap becoming more transparent. And I don't want to dig into that a little bit, but before we do, let's get into that innovation component Manish, mentioned that several times, but Don, I want to go to you guys. We have a slide on the various components of the innovation. If you would bring this up and Don I wonder if you could talk to this and give us some examples if you would. >> Yeah, sure. So we were the number one development platform for the last 25 years. We want to be the number one development platform for the next 25 years. And in order to do that, we have to be constantly innovating and constantly innovating not only the business side in terms of the subscription and the support offerings and commercial features like Manish was talking about, but also the platform in general. And so the way we like to talk about innovation as we break it down by these pillars that you can see on the slide. And so the first pillar is continuous improvements to the language. So this is watching developers trying to write the same piece of code over and over again, and us asking, can we make you more efficient? Can we give you more language features that reduce the amount of boilerplate that you have to write? The second pillar is a project that we just announced a few months ago called Leyden. And the idea with Leyden is addressing the longterm pinpoints of Java slow startup time and time to peak performance. So if you go back 10 years ago, everybody knows about Java as an enterprise platform, Java EE application servers. They all had the notion of being very long lived. And so Java at that time would be optimized towards long lived applications, startup, and performance. Where if it took a little while to get there, it didn't matter as long as when it got there, it was super fast. And so we're trying to get that peak performance faster in the world of microservices. In a similar vein with project loom, we're looking at making concurrency simple again, looking at how developers are doing more reactive style programming and realizing that the threading model needs to be rethought from the ground up, that project is looking really, really good. Then we have project Panama. Project Panama is all about making it easier to connect Java with native libraries. Valhalla is all about improving, there's a couple of benefits, but it's all about improving memory density and being able to access and iterate and operate over primitive data types at super fast speeds by better optimizing how that information is stored in memory. And then the other pillar of the final pillar that we have been working on from an innovation perspective is ZGC. We introduced a new garbage collector technology a few years ago, G1GCE a generational garbage collector with the eye towards making garbage collection in Java pause lists. So if you, again, if you go back in time and look at the history of Java, memory management is awesome, but there's always that cost and risk of a garbage collection cycle, taking a bit of time away from a critical application. And ZGC is all about getting rid of that. So lots of innovation, lots of different pillars going on right now. >> Awesome, I'm impressed. There's something after Valhalla. I thought that was Nirvana. (laughing) But now, and these are all open source projects, right? And you guys obviously provide committers, there are other people in the open source world who provide that, is that correct Don? >> Yeah, that's correct. We have about 80% of the contributions in open JDK. We are the stewards of open JDK and lead the project. Most of the pillars I talked about here are you know Oracle folks working on that. >> Awesome. Okay, let's get into some of the data. David, I want to come back to you and talk about some of the survey results guys, if you bring up that next slide. Why David, why do people upgrade? What are the drivers? It's really talks to the large companies and what's different from the small company or mid-size companies? What are the takeaways here? >> David: Well, so this is interesting, and as you might expect, large enterprises, have very concerned about application stability. Whereas midsize or enterprises are much more concerned about the performance, making sure that the performance is good. They are both concerned about reliable performance and security, but it's interesting that from a regulation point of view, mid-size companies really want to make sure that they are obeying the regulations, that they are meeting those. Whereas larger organizations usually have their own security and regulation functions looking very hard at these things. So that looking less to the platform to provide those than their own people. >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think the midsize organizations don't have as many people running around taking care of security and it's harder for them to keep up with the edicts of the organization. So they want to stay more current. Don, I wonder if you can add anything to this data from an innovation standpoint. >> Yeah, well, and from a product management standpoint, and what we see here is when you look at just going from fortune 500 to global 2000, you see things that are important to one or less so than the other. You can extrapolate that all the way down to a small company or a startup. And that's why providing the most flexibility in terms of an offering to allow people to decide what, when, where, and how they would be going to upgrade their software so they can do it when they want, and on their own terms. You can see that that becomes really important. And also making sure that we're providing innovation in a broad way so that it'll appeal both to the enterprise and again extrapolating that forward down to even very small startups. >> You know, David, the other thing that struck me in the data, if we bring up that other piece is the upgrade strategy, and there was a stark difference between large enterprises and midsize organizations. Talk to this data, if you would. >> Yes, this is again, a pretty stark difference between them. When you're looking at large enterprises, they really wants stability and they don't want to upgrade so often. Whereas mid-size enterprises, are much more willing to both upgrade on a regular cadence and really have a much more up-to-date, or have always have the latest software. They're driving smaller applications, but they're much more agile about their approach to it. Again, emphasizing what Don was saying about the smaller enterprises wanting a different strategy and a different way of doing things than large enterprises. >> So Manish this says to me that you got it right from a strategy standpoint. I mean, any color you can add here. >> Yeah, it's very intuitive that whether you're a large organization, a mid-sized enterprise or a small business, right? You face competitive pressures, your dynamics are unique. What you're able to do with the resources, what you desire to do at the pace that is appropriate for your environment, are really unique to you, and to try to force one model across any one size or across any set of dynamics is just not appropriate. So we've always felt that giving the enterprises and the organization, the ability to move at the pace of their business is the right approach. And so when we designed the Oracle Java SE subscription, we truly have that front and center in our thought process. And that structure seems to be working well. >> David, what I like about the way you do research is you actually build an economic model. A lot of these business value projects. I know this well, having been in the business a long time, they'll go out to ask the customer what they got, and then the customer said, "Well, I got a 111% ROI, and boom, that's what it is. You actually construct an economic model, you bring in rules of thumb, it allows you to do what ifs you can test that model and calibrate it against the real world. So I commend you on that. You've done a lot of hard work there, but bottom line at forests, I mean, let's bring up the economics. I mean, that's what people ultimately want to know. Does this save me money? What's the bottom line here? >> Yeah. Yes, that's a very important question. And the way we go about it is to ask the questions so that we can extract from those questions, how much effort it took, for example, to upgrade things, how much effort it took for important applications and not so important applications. So we have a very detailed model driven by the survey itself and in the back of the research, I'm a great believer that you should be able to follow exactly what the research said, what the survey said and how it was applied to the model. So, and what were you focused on was, what was the return of using the Java subscription service or taking an upgrade every six months? Those were the two ways that we looked at it. And for large enterprises, the four-year costs for the enterprise was $11 million, but for taking the additional subscription service, and this was well well covered, the payback is within a year, well covered by the lower costs of managing in a lot of systems and environment. And we found a very similar result on those midsize services. There, it was 3 million, and again, they got that back the year in terms of payback. So, but that's one alternative. There is another alternative that may be worthwhile the extra money if you really want to be up-to-date and or if you want to drive a much more aggressive strategy for your organization. >> So these are huge numbers. I mean, he's talking about 30% savings on average for large and mid-sized enterprises in the percentage terms, but the absolute dollars are actually enormous. So, you know, large companies here, we're talking about $20 billion enterprises with 500 or more Java applications. And mid-size is, you're talking about a couple, two, $3 billion companies. Manish, what are you saying in the customer base in terms of the economics? >> Yeah, you know anytime an organization is looking at an offering and a solution, they want to make sure just giving them the value. And we all know that the priorities of businesses have, they want to focus on that. Managing the Java estate is important, but is it the thing where they want to invest the dollars? And if they are investing the dollars, are they getting the return? We find that if you can give the enterprises an ability where they can see the return, the cost is right for them. And if you can mirror that and you can map it also with reduce risk, then you put the right formula. And with the subscription, they're able to not only see the cost savings that the model indicates clearly, but they're also able to reduce the risk in terms of security protection and other things. So it's a really, really good combination for the enterprises. >> Well, thank you, I wonder Manish, if you could bring us home here and just kind of summarize from your thoughts, everything you've heard today, what are the key takeaways? >> You know Java has been around for 25 years, and we certainly believe it's really positioned well for what's required today. And perhaps more importantly, what is needed for the next decade and for the next 25 years. Having now served thousands of customers with the Java subscription, it's clear that it is meeting the needs of fortune 10 organizations all the way down to a 5% development house, for example. What we're hearing from across the board is really Java has been the go to platform and it continues to be the go to platform for mission critical development and deployment. However, the complexity as the Java estate becomes large when you've got tens to hundreds, in some cases over a thousand applications running across the enterprise, that complexity can be daunting. And the Java subscription is really serving the needs in three ways. One, it's getting them the best of class support from Oracle, which is a steward of Java, the company that is generating over 80% of innovation with every single release. The second thing they're getting the business flexibility. So they can move at the pace that works for them. And therapies is as a business model as indicated that they're getting it at a lower cost while having your list. So the combination of these things is the reason why we're seeing very high renewal rates, why we're seeing thousands of organization take it over. And I want to wrap it up by saying one final thing, that you can count on Oracle to be the transparent, to be the right steward or both technology innovation, as well as to ensuring the support for the vast ecosystem whether it's libraries, frameworks, user groups, educational services and so on. So Java is here, has been here for the enterprise, large and small, and it's ready for the next generation as well. >> Great, thank you for that. Well, one more question. What's the call to action? If I'm a mid-sized company or a large company, I've made investments in Java, what, what should I do next? >> I would say, take a look at the Oracle subscription. It will reduce your rates. It'll save you a cost and it'll give you a lower risk parameter for your organization. >> Great, nice and crisp, I like it. If you like, if you guys don't object, I'm going to give you my summary. I've been taking notes this whole time and so, we've explored two options. Customers can do it yourself or go with the subscription on a regular cadence. It's very clear to me that that Java remains relevant as we set up top. It's the world's most popular programming language we know about all that. The ecosystem is really moving fast. Of course, with the stewardship of Oracle cloud microservices, the development of, of modern applications. I think that the directional changes that Manish you guys and, and Don and Oracle have made were really the right call. The research that David you did, shows that it's serving customers better. It lowers costs, it's cutting down risk particularly for the mid-sized companies that maybe are, or don't have the security infrastructure and the talent to go chase those problems. And I love the roadmap piece. The more transparent roadmap really is going to give the industry and the community much more confidence to invest and move forward. So guys, thanks very much for coming on this CUBE Java power panel. It was great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, I thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante, for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> from Austin, Texas. It's Theo Cube, covering your storage. Accelerate 2019. Brought to you by pure storage. >> Welcome to Austin, Texas. This is the Cube. Live at the fourth annual pure accelerate. I'm Lisa Martin with David, Dante, Dave or in Texas, >> Texas again. >> Austin, Texas. Very interesting venue for this fourth annual hear stories. >> A lot of construction, >> music, a >> lot of music. >> So we just came from the keynote and news announcements, customers on stage. But the first thing to point out is, this is here is about to celebrate their 10th anniversary. Charlie Giancarlo, CEO and chairman who's coming on the program with us, and just a few minutes talking about what they have innovated and delivered these 10 X improvements and 10 years kind of this overnight success in 10 years and what's coming? What was with the things that really stuck out at you, Nicky Note. >> Well, first of all, ironically, this is the 10th year of the Cube, not our 10th anniversary, but it's the 10th year of doing the Cube. And so our fourth year, I think it's pure accelerate about what 3000 people here, >> you know, the keynotes >> pure was laying out what their vision is of the modern data experience and that I felt like the keynotes least there were sort of, ah, speed date of what's coming. There was a couple of major announcements that we'll talk about, >> Uh, but >> they really are trying to differentiate as the modern storage company turn a deep position. The competition, as the old guard is to use this term that Andy Jassy uses pure, didn't use that term. But they really talked about it's time to go Modern. And so they were an overnight success. It took him 10 years, was one of the comments that was on stage. So I think this is worth pointing out. A couple of things. I mean, let me lay out. Sort of my thoughts on Pure is a company. They were the only storage company Ah, in the past. Let's call a decade to reach what I'll call escape velocity. They achieved a billion dollars a couple years ago. They're doing their due about a billion and 1/2 on a trailing 12 month basis. They'll do 1.7 billion this year and evaluations about 4.5 billion. So they got a a three ex valuation in that fluctuates. That's pretty good for a storage company. Billy on Lee major storage company. That's really growing rapidly. They got 28% growth. I did a breaking analysis on Lincoln, and I'll just share with you some of the numbers. Dallas flat at 0%. So Del is actually gaining share with no growth has got a scary NetApp minus 16% in the quarter H P E minus 3% IBM minus 21%. And so it is pure A 28%. So they're really crushing it in terms of growth. They've also got a 69% gross gross margin, even if it's in its heyday. E emcees gross margins weren't that high, you know. They were in the sort of mid sixties, and so, and they've also got a good balance sheet. About a billion dollars in cash A little. A little more than that, they got some debt. They're shifting their model to a deferred revenue model. Now the only thing is, you know they're growing much, much faster than the competition. But they're throwing off a lot less cash because they're much smaller. Just as an example, they probably throw off 5 to 6% of their revenues in cash. Netapp probably throws about 23% of its revenues, often catch the big Delta there, so the point is long winded. But but pure storage is in growth mode. And until the market rewards more consistent with a cash flow, they're gonna, I think, stay in huge growth mode. >> There was a great analysis. Dave and I saw an analysis that you did with some spends data, just a couple of your reverence. A little bit of that. There's there seems to be a tailwind behind here you mention the 28% wrote that they announced in Q two, and some of the things that also they talked about were there. Adding about in Q two of F Y 2020 about seven net new customers every business day, adding about 450 new customers just in that quarter. Like you said, 3000 folks expected here today. The momentum is behind them, but they're also a company of firsts. You talked about this a number of times. The first, with all flashed the first with envy me on the back and a couple of additional firsts announced today. Talk about the as a service model and how that youth, in your opinion, you think might continue that trajectory that they're on. >> Yes, so basically pure laid out today, said that vast majority are Pouliot Portfolio is gonna be available as a service. That's the cloud consumption mall is important because pure has about $600 million in deferred revenue, largely coming from their evergreen service. But there they are, slowly shifting their model to a subscription model. It's gonna be very interesting to see how that plays out. Um, we've seen a number of companies do a tableau in Adobe kind of pulled the band Aid off and did it Splunk has taken years to do. It will be interesting to see how how pure goes. For that. I'll >> bring it >> back to the cloud up yours largely an on Prem storage company. That's where most of the revenues come from. But we heard the gentleman from Amazon today. I think it was E ethan whiner, not Ethan, anyway, Mr Whiner, he said. That gardener did A survey last year showed 88% of customers said they have a cloud for a strategy, but 86% of those customers continue to spend on prim. So here you have the cloud. Amazon gorilla wants everybody to go to the cloud pure would much rather they make much more money on Prem? But they realize customers air pulling them in. So they have to move to that as a service model. One of the interesting things that pure is done, which, you know, that's not really a first. But it certainly is for the large storage companies they've announced. Ah, block storage on AWS. So basically what they're doing is they're taking the pure experience. It all looks like pure software, and they're front ending cheap s3 storage from Amazon with E. C. To compute instances, and they've architected using Amazon service. Is this basically a block storage array in the cloud so Amazon gets paid, pure, gets paid? It's a little bit of a premium, but you get higher availability. You get great right performance and you get the pure cloud experience pretty interesting strategy, >> and they're talking about it really as this. This positioning it rather as a bridge, a bridge to hybrid cloud. This numbers that the Amazon gentlemen, share that you mentioned Gardner were really interesting both sides recognizing there's a forcing function there and that forcing function is the customers from the enterprise to the small business who need to have data available immediately wherever it is people to extract this insights from it quickly so that those companies, whether it's a capital one or a Delta Airlines or a smaller organization, can act on it quickly to Dr Competitive Advantage. Same kind of challenge that your storage has. But really that forcing function of the customer, clearly bringing the giant AWS together with yet another story >> so pure as they say reached escape velocity. They and Nutanix were the only on a new entrance that reached a billion dollars Nutanix. I really don't consider a storage company. They're kind of hyper converged. And the way they did that as they drove a truck through E emcees install base with flash. So they were the first within all flash array. Maybe maybe they weren't the first, but they were the first to really drive it. They hired a bunch of DMC sales reps. They knew where all the skeletons were buried and they really took out a lot of old Symmetric Se's and Claire eons and V. Max is and all the old sort of GMC install base, and that helped them catapult their way there 1st 10 years. Now they got to do that again. They got to get to get They're on their way to two billion. But how did they get to five billion? Um, and and so the way they do that is they have to expand their tam. I mean, we'll talk to Charlie Jean Carlo about this. My feeling is a big job of the CEO is to expand the Tamil. How do they do that? They go after new workloads like a i. They go for cloud. They go from multi cloud. These are all very large markets in which they don't participate. Data protection. They'll partner with Lex, Kohi City and Rubric and Beam to to have data protection software running on their flash. A raise with very, very fast restores. That's something that's taking off. It's gonna be really interested in seeing as they say, they've got this subscription model that's coming in. They've got all this deferred revenue that in a way, it's going to slow him down a little bit just from an accounting standpoint, cause when you recognize deferred revenue, you recognize that, you know over 12 months over 36 months, so that's a little bit of a transition. The other thing that pure is facing in a tactical basis is Nande pricing. It's like this countervailing effects nan pricing is coming down, which means lower prices, lower costs but also lower revenue. But at the same time, it becomes more competitive with spinning disk. This is something else. We'll talk to Charlie Jean. Cholera right about it opens up new markets. So this tam expansion is critical for pure in terms of driving this modern data experience into these new workloads and fighting the competition, the competition is not sitting still. All those companies that I mentioned the H P ease, the the Delhi emcees, et cetera, are basically taking a page out of your swords narrative, talking about the cloud experience, talking about, you know, flexible pricing models, building cloud products on prime and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. So it's hard sometimes for customers to squint through that. And really, no, I guess the bottom line, the last thing I'll say is pure. Doesn't have as many feet on the street is these other guys. So it's gotta leverage the channel increasingly, and that's how it gets beyond two billion on its way to five billion. >> And that was one of the factors that they attributed the second quarter. 28% year on year growth is to not just innovation, but also to the channel. So they've done a good job of really pivoting. There's large enterprise deals to be covered, direct and then bringing in the channel for those smaller mid size business customers. Adding a lot of momentum in cute to you mentioned the nan pricing that in some of the political climate with the start of China, most of their businesses in the Americas so they're not facing as many of those challenges. So they did lower guidance for the rest of it is >> the second time they've >> lowered 20. However, they kind of attributed that thio the nan supply oversupply and they say happy Matt to flatten out quickly, say they're >> not worried about the macro. I mean, look, if if the economy is good and is booming and people are spending money on cap ex. That's good for even a high growth company. They're basically positioning to the street that if if the economy does turn down and there's a softness at the macro, they'll actually gain share more rapidly. Which, by the way, is probably true. But look at the rising tide lifts all boats. Nobody wants to see Ah recession. Having said that, well, it's interesting. When you saw Pure Lower, its guidance stock took a hit, and then net app, I'd be him. All these other company you have to see a deli emcee they announced in the market said, Wow, pure must be doing really well compared to these other guys. So it's come back in a big way. My opinion pure is going to in the e. T. Our data shows this from a spending intentions Pure is going to continue to gain share at a much, much more rapid pace of the other. The other guys, from a product standpoint, delicacies consolidating its product portfolio, trying to lower its cost. H. P E is really focused on limbo. IBM needs a mainframe product cycle to get back going, Ned APS facing its challenges and its kind of tweaking its go to market model. So all these other companies air dealing with sort of some structural changes. Where is pure is like put the put the foot on the gas and accelerate no pun intended. And so I think they're gonna continue to gain share for quite quite a number of quarters. >> I want to talk about sustainability before we break. And one of the things that Charlie talked about on his keynote is in terms of the modern data experience, he said. It was three things. It was simple, seamless and sustainable, an inch sustainable. You really started talking about the evergreen model that they launched a while ago that seems to be really sticky with organizations. He also talked about sustainability is a lot of other organization I need to adjust in terms of, you know, waste and carbon emissions and things like that. But I'm just curious, since Pierre is much smaller than the competitors that you mentioned and a lot more focus, obviously all in on flash. Where does the evergreen model, in your opinion, give them that tail winter? That advantage? >> Well, the Evergreen model was first of all brilliant marketing strategy and a business strategy Because if you think about the traditional storage vendors, they make so much money on maintenance, they would never have done this unless pure force them to do it. Because they're making so much cash on the maintenance. You know, it's it's you. You put the storage array in and we're just gonna charge you maintenance. And if you're not on the maintenance contract, sorry. You don't get all the software upgrades, everything else. So it's just this, you know, this lock in strategy, which is work brilliantly for two decades pure, comes along and says, Hey, where? Software driven. We're gonna allow you to get all the modern software. As long as you're got a subscription with us, we'll swap out your controller for free. You know, the competitors hate that. There's all kinds of nuances and stuff, but it worked, and customers love it. And so it's very strong, and it's a fundamental as they said, they got $600 million in deferred revenue, largely from that evergreen model. So they, you know, Charlie mentioned first for non disruptive upgrades. First for cloud management, first for a I ops first for always on que Os first with always on encryption, and if they're really the first, we're probably the first big company. They got a lot of attention there. Last thing, it's it's a four big announcements today. There's a I ready infrastructure, airy. They're doing some stuff they were first to announce with video. You know, a year or so ago, they got cloud offerings. Ah, block storage for AWS. And they've got clout Snap for Azure, which is actually pretty hot. It's backup on Azure, and they got product extensions. They got cheaper flash with a flash or a C for capacity. And then they have extended their all flashy raise their flash played etcetera with storage class, memory and and storage memory. And in this, this as a service model. Those are really the four big announcements that were gonna dig into all this week. >> We are, and we're gonna be talking with This is a great event. Two days. The cube is going to be here. We have seven pure customers to talk to you that I think kind of a record, at least in my cube experience of the last >> AWS always puts a lot of customers up too. You know. All >> right, well, there's no better validation than the success of a brand, whether we're talking about Evergreen or their first or the reaction of the market to bringing flash down to satya prices. So excited to dig into customer stories with you, Dave. Course we'll talk to some partners who got c'mon slung Cisco somebody else and probably forgetting. And, of course, some of the pure, exactly gonna be exciting two days with you and looking for two days >> looking forward to at least a great >> all right stick around. Dave and I will be right back with our first guest, Charlie Giancarlo, chairman and CEO of Pier Storage. Stick around, come back Mawston in just a minute.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, its theCUBE, covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, SilconANGLE's premier live streaming show where we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise we are live day two of Dell Technologies World. I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend, welcoming back a CUBE alumni, Gil Shneorson Senior Vice President of VxRail and GM at Dell EMC. Hey Gil. >> Thank you for having me back. >> Well we're excited to talk to you. So looking at some of the announcements that came out today where Dell EMC says they're the number one market leader in global hyper-converged infrastructure, and you've said that's happened really quickly. Tell us a little bit about that leadership. >> I think we found a way to take a systems approach to what is otherwise a software-defined world. So we found a way to get all of the economical benefits of hyper-converged driven by software, at the same time own the responsibility for those systems to be up and running and life cycle managed, taking away more of the responsibility then customers would have to do it on their own and I think that recipe has led us to a leadership position very, very quickly. >> So, you know we talked earlier today, can you expand upon some of that responsibility alleviating from customers, specifically around SLAs, around IO when you software-define or software-deliver storage, kind of the operating model changes. Can you expand upon that? >> Yeah, that's a very good point. So look at software-defined storage technology, for example. We happen to work with VSAN, which is the leading software-defined technology, but when customers choose to deploy software-defined solutions on their own, they're doing something that they haven't been doing in many, many years, which is take on the responsibility for up timing. It used to be that storage vendors, you know held responsibility for storage up time, for IOPs, for performance. So I think what we're doing is we found the balance. We've been getting a lot of benefits of hyper-converged and software defined, but at the same time own the responsibility from an operations standpoint to make it more like a traditional architecture and what they know. And that combination is very, very important. So for example, the ability to look at the entire system from software to driver to firmware, and always deliver a known good package because something that customers would have to do on their own, and they're all capable of doing it, but if they could choose not to do it why not offload it to somebody like us that does it for them. And so while there are two deployment models, we have a very massive growth in the systems approach, model (music drowns out voice) and I think people hand off things that they could do but they choose not to because they can focus on other things in the IT shop. For example, digital transformation and really the path to the multicloud by adding more and more layers on top of infrastructure that they can trust. >> Speaking of multicloud, I was in Jeff Clarke's opening session this morning. He was talking about, he gave a stat, I think it was 50 plus to 56% of users surveyed are using more than one cloud. So one of the things I also saw in the press release about the advancements of VxRail and VxRack, giving customers a clear path to adopt VMWare-based multiclouds. What is that clear path? How was that differentiated? So let's remember that both of those products, VxRail and VxRack SDDC are products that are built on the VMWare stack. They're optimized for VMWare users. They're not agnostic to anything. They're really VMWare on VMWare with automation and hardware and packaging that we do as a system. By delivering that robust infrastructure in one of the announcements that we made was that we created the VMWare validated design to add the rest of the VMWare stack and create an infrastructure as a service environment. That inherently comes with the ability to offload workloads to VMWare's service provider, cloud service provider, including Amazon and Google and the likes, but really a very vast network. So you take an infrastructure that's based on VMWare and harden is designing the system, you add on top of it to a prescriptive VVD exactly how to add the layered toppings like VRealize Automation, and through that inherently you get the entire VMWare value proposition going from a local solution to multicloud. And so the announcement was that validated design, which is very important, and then the announcement also included all sorts of hardware innovations or small evolutions like NVMe drives and 25 gigabyte ethernet, and higher memory CPUs. All of those are just to make sure that the infrastructure itself is ready to support that software stack that ultimately leads them to a full IO solution and offloading to the multicloud that are available to them. >> So big announcement or big set of education last year at VM World was the VCF. VMWare Cloud Foundation. It is the foundation of VMWare's infrastructure cloud play. Can you help talk through the importance in how VCF differentiates VMWare, VxRail, VxRack from competitors. >> So VCF is a software bundle. It's also an orchestrator that allows customers to manage multiple VMWare clusters within context. It's called a workload domain, and they can manage those clusters, and they can deploy them, they can life cycle management, they can microsegment them with NSX, and they can move workloads between them and to the cloud. VxRack SDDC is a system that basically lays down the VCF bits on a system premanufactured, and that's how we benefit from VCF as a differentiator. What we've done in addition we've announced 14G servers to be supported in that architecture. And we've also extended it to a, for example, a dial home on a system level. A lot of serviceability features, a physical view of the service as part of the graphic user interface. So not only does VCF differentiate VMWare by having the ability to finally leverage the entire stack, our value add is in taking that in the physical to virtual integration, if you will, life cycle management, and serviceability around servicing all of the system, which makes it a very robust infrastructure. So today customers have two choices. They can buy VxRack with VCF on top of it, or they can get to the same outcome with VxRail following a VVD prescriptive. And so what we do is we let them choose. If they're not ready for an NSX deployment they'd start with one, if they are they'll start with the other. Either way the outcome is going to be a full (music drowns out voice) from VMWare that can offload to multicloud. We just give them choices of how to get there. >> So want to kind of play off the value add for a second. We're at this event, the event theme Make It Real, making digital transformation real is a mandatory for businesses, right? They have the opportunity to take and apply data to multiple cases, use cases, within their organization to deliver differentiation. So you talked about a lot of the value out of the choices that you're giving customers from an IT perspective, what are some of the business, when you're sitting there with customers, what are some of the business outcomes they're looking for this technology to help them deliver? >> So that's a good question. So two levels of an answer. One is that by getting an automated infrastructure, IT itself can free up cycle to actually implement the (mumbles). It also frees up time for those organizations who are embarking on native cloud application development. For example, to deploy pivotal Cloud Foundry on top of (mumbles) Which is another prescriptive reference cycle actually that we have out there. And allow them to innovate. What I'm most interested in when I visit customers is what workloads are running on HCI. And I ask them and they say, is it testive, is it mission critical? And I'm happy to see that by now HCI, and specifically our products, have become mission critical, data centered, so all the way from the core to the edge running, banking applications a scale, running trading applications scale, running manufacturing application scale, running ports all over the world. I mean there's one customer that runs ports with automated trucks where the AI that runs those trucks is running on a VxRail. I mean, it's very, very exciting to see how our technology has been adopted into mainstream, into mainstream application compute. I think that's very exciting. And IT can enable more of those applications run and develop more because they have to do less in managing the physical infrastructure across multi companies. >> So Lee Caswell, Senior Vice President of Products over at VMWare brought in his customer from Celtic yesterday, and he validated that. They went all in from a legacy three tier architecture on Dell SE, they were Dell customer before, went with the Xrack, sorry VxRail, mission critical applications out the gate. So I'm seeing a shift. Last year around this time we were doing education and saying, you know, what is HCI versus a traditional architecture? Are you seeing that same thing at the show, as a shift that customers are no longer asking oh what is VxRail or VxRack, but that very thing is how can we accelerate digital transformation using VxRail or VxRack? >> Yeah, we have a very large percentage of the meetings, in fact almost 200 meetings that were requested to review the technology with us initial. That's a lot, that shows a lot of interest. There are a few customers that still don't know, and we've met some of those at the show. There are a few customers who are still contemplating whether HCI is right for them. And by the way, to those customers we say, don't rush into it, you have choices. If that's what you used to, what the economics were for you, there is no reason to rush into HCI. It's just depending on if you're going to get a better outcome than what you have today. But a very common question from customers is okay, then why do I need traditional storage? And for somebody from my vantage point, let's say there's a lot of bare-metal computing out there that requires traditional. But we think that traditional storage becomes more specialized, you know specific DR use cases, very large ratios between compute and storage and requires shared storage, but the HCI type of technology is definitely, and we see it with market growth, right? The market is growing at 60 to 70%. We're growing over 150% and taking share in this growing market, but we're still very, very small if you compare it to the whole IT tam. So there's a lot of way to go. Partly is that we still need to work on the last mile, being sure that our products are more mature, that we figure out how to operate them in a real life environment. So there's work to do, but the economical benefits are so strong that customers are making the choice more and more and more, and they trust us to know how to close the gaps that we still have. And it's a very collaborative effort between our and our customers. We listen, we respond very quickly, and so we can keep the machine going. >> It sounds like a momentum that we talked about with you I think at VM World back in eight or so months ago continues. And we want to thank you for stopping by theCUBE, sharing what's new with VxRack, VxRail, and how customers can be successful there. >> Absolutely. >> Thanks, Gil. >> Thank you for having me again. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. We are live in a concert at Dell Technologies World. I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend. We'll be right back with our next guest after a short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube. Covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC, and it's ecosystem partners. (light music) >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, everybody, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host Keith Townsend. Craig Nunes is here, he's the CMO of Datrium. >> Yeah. >> Dave: Long time CUBE's alum, it's great to see you again. >> Great to be back, awesome. >> Dave: And James Stock is a Datrium customer, he's the Vice President of IT at Grow Financial. James, welcome, first time on theCUBE, looking good man. >> It is, yes, thank you very much. >> All right, Craig, Datrium-- >> Yeah. >> You guys are smoking hot, changing the storage world give us the quick update, we'll get into it. >> Look, we are filling a huge gap, bigger, I think, than we had imagined. Because, a lot of, it's no secret, the array market is in decline. And Hyper Converged has tried to reinvent that market. And it has to a degree on the low end, BDI, that kind of stuff. But data centers need an answer that scales. They need an answer that's got resilience. And it turns out, after all these years, back up is still a problem. Figuring out the cloud is still a problem. And so we put together a system that really takes a tier one approach to HCI, a full on scale out back up system and a cloud DR approach built into one convert system. And customers love it. From cloud to back up to performance in primaries, it's been awesome reception. >> Well, let's see if they really love it, I guess. So James, first of all, so let's start with Grow Financial, your role, you heard the pitch, and then we'll get into how it your applying it to new business. But, tell us about your company. >> So we started in 1955 in a broom closet in McDowell Air Force bases headquarters, there in Tampa. And over the years, we've grown. We're now a $2.4 billion in assets. We have over 200,000 members, and we do lending throughout the south eastern United States. Offices in Tampa, and in South Carolina. >> So in your role, head of IT-- >> Basically, what I tell people, is that if it plugs in, I'm responsible for it. >> (laughs) okay. All right, so, take us through the Datrium project of before and after, what was the motivation? >> So, really, the issue that we were running into is that our existing storage solution, which was the Dell SE, was our trays were running end of life, and if we only had a couple of them, it probably wouldn't have been a problem. We might not of even entertained it, but we had probably two dozen. So, we started looking around and said, "all right, "well, what does it cost to replace what we've got? "and what else is on the market?". And we started to find out that just replacing what we had with like, was going to cost almost 200 grand more than what our full Datrium replacement cost. So, it started making financial sense, right away. But, we met up with Datrium probably, might've been summer of 2016, when they were on version one. And it looked good, you could see the promise, the whole idea of having that back in storage, that was really intriguing, because none of the other players had anything like that at the time. And we said, "All right, we're not ready." And then when they came back out in May of last year, whoa, the difference in what they've done in such a short period of time is what really kind of blew us away. >> Okay, but, we're here at Dell Technologies World, where you guys are a partner of Dells, right? So you're using Dell servers and right? >> James: Yep. >> That's part of the deal here, so, they let you in. >> They let us in, in fact, our compute nodes, it's no secret, our Dell branded compute nodes, and in fact we have partnered with Dell in one of their data centers to set a world record IO mark on Dell here, just to prove a lot of the performance specs that we've shared in the market, proved it out. And we've proved it out on Dell here. >> Cool, so James, talk to me a little bit about your perception of Olby converge. Because I've talked to Craig about Olby convergence versus Hyper convergence versus Converge infrastructure, at the end of the day, you just want a reliable, fast system, however, what about the Olby convergence story drew you today? >> So, I didn't have to replace any of the nodes I had, if I really didn't have, if I wanted too. So I've got CISCO nodes around my call center, I've got Dell nodes, I've got Datrium nodes now. But at the time, it wouldn't have mattered. I could've just, like, in my CISCO environment, I actually had to add a raid controller to the UCS box and then I could throw any solid state drives that I wanted into the device. So that was where it really got compelling, and I'm like wait a minute, so you're telling me, I don't have to buy enterprise flash drives, and stick these into each of my servers. I could just go down to Best Buy, or wherever local, grab something off the shelf, and throw it in there, as long as the server supported it? And, okay, where do I sign up? >> So we've heard that story, and one of the things that some of the hyper converge infrastructure players say, you know what, we could do that, but it's almost impossible to support. Because of firmware issues, et cetera, et cetera. Did you guys run into any of those issues? >> Nope, that's been the greatest thing. When we first started to do our reference calls, it was like everybody I talked to, I said, well, where's the catch? >> Keith: Right. Because that really seemed too good to be true. And customer after customer that I called, they said, "we ran into it with our back ups." But they finished a third of the time faster. I said, "how is that even possible?" and, so we didn't believe it either. We actually had to go back and check because some of our backup jobs finished so fast, we thought it was an error or something like that. They were fine, it was just, you're backing up from flash now, instead of backing up from old spinning discs. >> Okay, so you put the system in, talk about the business impact. It sounds like there was some residual impacts from the initial motivation? >> Right, right, so from the business impact, that's a tough story to sell. Because, really, where we saw it, it was on the backend. And that was the way our systems were before, there really wasn't a huge deal of impact in the business with our old system, until it came back to back up times. Now, where I will say that we still have reductions is, if I have to reboot a server today, our call center application, buyers are putting it on Datrium, it took anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes for that to boot up. Well, 15 to 20 minutes while our call centers down, is like an eternity. Now, that time's down to about five to seven minutes. So, like overnight, you've more than halfed that time. And the same thing with web servers, or anything else that would be member facing, those times have been greatly reduced. So, if I do have to reboot something, because everybody knows it happens, it's sped up the process tremendously for us. >> And what's the secret sauce here? We're talking architecture, just sort of modern approach? Software design? >> So that the secret sauce, if you will, is this split design that runs your workloads. Especially read intensive workloads, on flash, on the host with powerful software, Datrium software. All of your durable data does not live on those hosts, those hosts are not stay full, they can fail at any time, and you still have data availability. So you've got that bullet proof availability, and on the back end, your data's kept secure, it is shared so we don't have any network traffic between hosts, your network doesn't blow up when you install, like it does with a hyper converged approach. And that split provisioning, that split architecture is the breakthrough, and that's why we talk about beyond HCI, we took a good step there. The scale line attributes, VIUM centric admin, but then we really built in tier one capabilities, full on backup, and of course, we haven't talked about it, but access to AWS re-offset backups. >> So, James, let's talk about day two operations. What are the advantages of hyper converged? There's this idea of like I'm one pane of glass. Like, firmware updates, I can free line my operations. Do you guys see similar advantages, day two, versus your previous infrastructures? >> Yeah, I mean, one of the things that saves us a lot of times now, is the fact that there's just one big pool of data out there, instead of having to provision lunds, we were setting up our exchange conversion, so we're building out four or five servers for that. Well, normally, that'd be about a two hour process, not that we were sitting there waiting the whole time, but, all right, we'll carve out some space in this one, twiddle your thumbs, go do something else. Come back, and maybe they'll be done. Well, now, that's like an instant process. So those sort of things are like, "wow, you know what, "I'm saving tons of time", just in admin experiences. In terms of pane of glass, it is a single pane of glass. One of the cool things that we've run into is every now and then, of course, we've got to do our disaster recovery testing, we're a financial institution. Well, Datrium's approach is really unique, and a problem that we used to have, is if I failed over to our DR facility, well, now I've got to bring that data back. Because if you fail in over, it's not a problem, you've already seated that data. Well, it doesn't work the other way around. It does with Datrium. So with Datrium, when I go to bring that data back, it's now doing a differential copy back, so I'm not sitting there for days and days and days, waiting to finish my DR testing anymore. So, there's just so many different benefits that have just been great for us. >> I mean, that's huge, because a lot of times, organizations, they can't test DR's, it's too risky, or they just don't have time, and even on the resources. >> James: Right. >> Did you have that problem beforehand? Or are you guys-- >> Well, yeah, because what you would run into is that it took so much to do it before, that I had to run my guys ragged for two or three weeks. I'm like, "All right, stay up overnight, make sure "it all copies" and then once it's copied, okay bring it back up. So, I mean, yeah, that was a challenge before that's not a problem anymore. >> Burning the team out, right. And or missing your window. >> Well, and because of the way that it's architected with the production groups, I no longer need to use a third party recovery tools to do the transitions back and forth. I can do that, natively, inside their application. >> I would also like to ask practitioners, if you had to mull it again, what would you do over. And it sounds like nothing, or what kind of advice would you give to your peers embarking on a similar journey? >> Do all of your reference calls. See it for yourself, I mean, I take quite a number of reference calls because people are in the same boat I was. Is it true, does it really work the way that you say it does? Yeah, it does. I'll screen share with them, if they want to see our numbers, I'll show them. >> All right, last word, what are we looking for? >> What are we looking for? >> Dave: Looking forward. >> So you're going to see us double down on the work we just went into market. Our DVX 4.0 software which comes with that cloud DVX, cloud based capability. And take that in to full on disaster recovery, orchestration. And not in the too distant future, you'll get the whole run down, so stay tuned. >> Awesome, Craig, thanks for coming on. James, pleasure meeting you. >> Likewise, thank you. >> Good luck with everything. Thanks for hanging out with me. >> Always. >> All right, Keith, good job, good questions. All right, keep it right there everybody, we will be back with our next guest, right after this short break. You're watching theCUBE live, from Dell Technologies World 2018. We'll be right back. (light music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is SiliconANGLE Media's live coverage wall to wall of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon here in Austin, Texas. Got the house banner rocking all day. I'm Stu Miniman, happy to be joined on the program, Dan Walsh who's a consulting engineering with Red Hat. Rocking the red hat, Dan thanks so much for joining us. >> Pleasure to be here. >> Alright so we've, you know Red Hat has a strong presence at the show, we had Clayton on yesterday, top contributor, won an award actually for all the contribution he's done here. Going through a lot of angles. Why don't you start with, tell us kind of your role, what you've been doing at Red Hat. >> So at Red Hat I'm a consulting engineer, which basically means I lead a team of about 20 engineers, and we work on the base operating system. Basically anything to do with containers from the operating system on down. So kernel engineers. But everything underneath Kubernetes. So traditionally for the last four and a half years I've been working on the Docker Project as well as other container type efforts. We've added things like file system support, Docker, lots of kernel changes, lots of, you know we're working forever on usernames base things like that. More recently though we've been working, we started to work on sort of one of the, well OpenShift and Kubernetes were built on top of Docker originally, and they found over time that the Docker base was changing in ways that were continuously breaking Kubernetes. So about a year and a half ago we start to work on a project called Crio. So a little history is if you go back, Kubernetes was originally built on top of Docker. But core OS came to Kubernetes and wanted to get rocket support into Kubernetes. And rather than add rocket support, Kubernetes decided to find this interface. Basically a CRI, container runtime interface, which is an API that they would call out to to run containers. So rocket could build a container runtime interface, they actually built a shim for the Docker API. But we decided at that time to basically build our own one, and we called it Crio. So it's container runtime interface for OCI images. So the plan was to build a very minimalist daemon that could support Kubernetes, and Kubernetes alone. So we don't support any other orchestrations or anything else. It's totally based on Kubernetes CRI. So our versioning matches up with Kubernetes. So Kubernetes one dot eight, you got Crio one dot eight. Kubernetes one dot nine, you got Crio one dot nine. >> So Dan we've been talking about this. You know Red Hat made a pretty strong bet on Kubernetes relatively early in there. Red Hat, very open, everything you do is 100% open source. Why for Crio, why only Kubernetes? There's other orchestrations out there that are open source. >> Well let's take a step back. So one of our goals in my group was to take, sort of what does it mean to run a container. So if you think about when I run a container, what do I need? I need a standard container image format, so there's the OCI image bundle format that defines that. The next thing I need is the ability to pull an image from a container registry to the host. So we built a library called containers image that actually implements all of the capabilities of moving containers back and forth around, but basically at a Command Line or a library level. We built a tool on top of that called Scopio, which allows us to basic Command Line, I can move from one container registry to another, I can move container registries to different kinds of storage. I can move directly from a container registry into a Docker daemon. So we have a, so the next step you need when you want to run a container is storage. So you need to take that container image and put in on disk. And in the case of containers you do that on top of what's called the copy and write file system. So you need to be able to have a layering file system. So we created another project called container storage that allows you to basically store those images on storage. The last step for running a container is actually to launch an OCI runtime. So we, OCI runtime specification and run c takes care of that. So we have the four building components for what it means to run a container separate. So we're building other tools around that, but we built one too that was focused on Kubernetes. And again, the reason Red Hat bet on Kubernetes is we felt that they had the best longterm potential, and judging by this show I think we made a sane bet. But we will work with others. I mean these are all fully open source projects. We actually have contributors coming in that are contributing at these low level tools. For instance pivotal is a major contributor in container image. And they're using it for pulling images into their base. We have other products that projects are using, and so it's just not Kubernetes. It's just Crio is a daemon for Kubernetes. >> Yeah Dan it's really interesting. You listen in Clayton's keynote this morning. He talked about one of the goals you have at Red Hat is making that underlying infrastructure boring so that everything about it can rely on it, and works on. There's a lot of work that goes on under there. So it's like, the plumbers and the mechanics down underneath making sure it all works. >> A lot of times when I give talks, the number one thing I'm always trying to teach people is that containers are not anything really significantly different. Containers are just processes on a Linux system. So if you booted up a regular REL system right now, and you looked at Pid One of a system. Let me take a step back, I define containers as being something that has, c groups associated with a resource constraints, it has some security constraints associated with it, and it has these things called name spaces, which is a virtualization layer that gives you a different view of the processes. If you looked at every process on a Linux system, they all c groups associated with them, they all have security constraints associated with them, and they all have name spaces associated with. So if you went to Pid One, if you went to slash proc Pid One slash NS you would see the name spaces associated with Pid One. So that means that every process on Linux is in a container. By the definition of a container being those three things. And all that happens on the system is you toggle those. So you can tighten them or change some of the name space and stuff like that, and that gives you the feel of the virtualization. But bottom line is they're all containers. So all the tools like Docker, rocket, Crio, run c, or any one of those tools are all just basically going into the kernel, configuring the kernel, and then launching the Pid One on the system. And from that point on it's just a kernel that's taking 'em. We at Red Hat has a t-shirt that we often wear that says Linux is containers and containers is Linux. And that actually proves the point. So bottom line is you know the operating system is key, and my team and the developers I work with, and the open source community is all about how can we make containers better? How can we further constrain these processes? How can we create new name spaces? How can we create new c groups, new stuff like that? So it's all low level stuff. >> Dan, you know give us some flavor as to some of the customer conversations you're having at the show here. Where are they? I mean we know it's a spectrum of where they are, but what are some of the commonalities that you're hearing? >> I mean at Red Hat our customers run the gamut. So you know we have customers who can barely get off a rel five which came out 12 years ago. Two sort of the leading edge customers. And the funny thing is a lot of these are in the some companies. So most of our customers at this point are just beginning to move into the container world. You know they might have a few containers running, or they had their developers insisting, hey this container stuff cool I want to start playing with it. But getting them from that step to the step of say Kubernetes, or to get them to step with OpenShift, is sort of a big leap. My fear with a lot of this is a lot of people are concentrating too much on the containers. You know the bottom line is what people need to do is develop applications. And secure applications. My history is very based in heavy security. So really we face a lot of customers who sort of have home grown environments. And their engineers come in and say oh I want to do a Docker build, or I want to talk to the Docker socket. And I always look at that and question, you know you're supposed to be building apps, you're building banking apps, or you're building military apps, you're building medical apps. They should be concentrating on that and not so much on the containers. And that's actually the beauty of OpenShift. You can set up OpenShift workloads in such a way that their interaction to build a container is just a Git check it. And it's not, you don't have to go out and understand what it means to build a container. You don't have to get the knowledge of what it means to be able to build a container and things like that. >> Dan you bring up a really good point. At this show most of the customers I'm talking about, it's really about the speed for them to be able to deliver on the applications. Yes there's the people building all the tooling, and the projects here, and there's many customers that are involved with it. But we've gone further up the stack where it's closer to the application, less to that underlying infrastructure. >> And the other thing customers are looking for, in my case, as I said I have a strong background in security, I did SE Linux for like 13 years. Most of my time talking to customers is about security, and how can we actually confine containers, how do we keep them under control, and especially when they go to multi tenancy. And some good things, I don't know if you're going to talk to Kata? Have you heard about the Kata project? >> So we've talked to a couple people, Kata coming out of the open-- >> Clear containers and-- >> Yeah clear container of the intel. >> Yeah and I think that those, getting to those levels of using hardware isolation, it really helps out in-- >> It's interesting because actually, you know when first looking at, it's like wait it's kind of a lightweight VM, it's a container. Where does that fit in? >> They're really just containers, 'cause they're not, a lightweight VM would be actually booting up like an init system and running logging and all these other things. So like a Kata container or, I'm more familiar with clear containers. A clear container is literally just running a very small init system and then it launches run c to run, actually start up the container. So it has almost no operating system inside of the lightweight VM. As opposed to running just regular virtual machines. >> Dan would love your take on, you know you talked about security. Security of containers, the role of security in the cloud native space. What are you seeing, and what do we need to work on even more as an industry? >> It's funny because my world view is at a much lower level than other security people that we talk to. There's other security people that'll be looking at sort of network isolation and role based access control inside of Kubernetes. I look at it as basically multi tenancy. So running multiple containers with different workloads, and what happens if one container gets hacked, how does that affect the other containers that are running and how do I protect the services? So over the years when we've been working with Docker, I got SE Linux support in, we've gotten Setcom support in. We're trying to take advantage of everything in the Linux kernel to further tighten the security. But the bottom line is a process inside of the container is talking to the real kernel on the host. Any vulnerability in the host kernel could lead to an escalation and a breakout. So that's why no matter what you say, a hyper, like a hyper shell, a separate container running inside of a VM is always going to be more secure. But that being, on the other hand, containers in a lot of cases you want to have some interaction. If you go all the way to VM you get really bad isolation. So you really have to cover the gamut. So a lot of times I'll tell people to look at containers as being, they're not a zero sum game. You don't have to throw away all your VMs to move to containers. I tell people the most secure way to run a application is separate physical hardware. The second most is on VM. So the third most is inside a container. And then you can go on to all down the line. But there's nothing to say that you can't run your containers inside of separate VMs, inside of separate physical machines. So you can set up your environment in such a way. Say you have your web front end sitting inside of VMs inside of (mumbles) zone on separate physical hardware you setup your databases or your credit card data on separate physical machines, separate VMs, and separate containers inside of it. So you can build up these really high levels of security based on containers, virtualization, and physical hardware. I can go on forever on this stuff. >> Dan Walsh, really appreciate sharing some of the ways that Red Hat's trying to help some of those underlying pieces become boring. So the customers won't have to worry about. >> That's really what it's about. If you know what's going on at the host level then I haven't done my job. So our goal is to basically take that host level, and make it disappear. And you can work with your higher level orchestration level. >> Well Dan, it's great to catch up with you, thanks so much for joining us. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon 2017 in Austin, Texas. I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live, from San Francisco , it's The Cube. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. >> Okay we're back here live in San Francisco at Moscone West for exclusive coverage of Samsung Developer Conference on John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and the host of the cube here. Our next guest is Mary Min, Vice President of Global Business Development at SE Works Inc. Former entrepreneur, gamer, still entrepreneurial in her new world, but has seen the evolution of gaming. Here to talk about Augmented Reality, Virtual Reality, and kind of the trajectory of life in the digital era. Welcome to The Cube. >> Okay thank you. >> So we were just talking before we came on about the evolution of your career. You had a start-up, you sold it. It was a game. You been gaming since the late 90s and looking forward. What is the evolution of gaming and how it relates to Augmented Reality? Because there's a debate that goes on in the industry. Oh, VR is the next big thing, but yet it failed. Tim Cook recently came out and said hey, you know, don't get your hopes up. There's still more head room to do. Not necessarily a bad thing. Because now Augmented Reality is winning. You're seeing it in industrial IOT. You're seeing Augmented Reality. So what's your thoughts about how people should think about the evolution of this new wave of innovation. >> I think that with any new technology that's really life-changing for society as a whole, nothing ever gets done on the first iteration or the first phase. Things will never really take off on the first round especially when you're going mass consumer. Because people need time for learned behavior. People are creatures of habit. They like to stick what's familiar. And in order for them to move from one leap to the next, you need baby steps. And those baby steps unfortunately will include pioneers in whatever field, whether it be AR, or VR, that need to blaze the trail for their successors to come and start building on top of that as well. I read something really interesting this morning coming here where if you have someone who's trying to dig a well, and you need to dig 10 feet, the first person fails because they only dug the first foot. Second person, third person, subsequently until the ninth person, that well is not dug. But that 10th person is who successfully has the water filling the well. That 10th person could not have dug that final last foot if the first nine didn't go before him. And I consider that's really the phase that VR and AR honor as well. We needed that first iteration of VR in order to have the new generation of engineers, entrepreneurs, product people, mindset people, to start thinking about how to shape the future of this ecosystem. And we needed that to have it's course in order for AR to build on top of those learnings. And hopefully as we subsequently start to build on those as well, we don't view this as failures necessarily, but as necessary advancements in order to get to the ultimate goal of integrating more technology into our lives to make it a better life. >> And the relationship between the hardware platforms, whether it's console, PC, handset, or headset, and software, is interesting. And I want to talk about that with you. But first I want to tell you a story. Tell about your entrepreneur story. You were at UC-Berkeley Cal here, University of California - Berkeley, my daughter is a junior there, but... Great school, doing a lot of cutting-edge stuff there at Berkeley, and certainly not a lack of protests either these days. But, tell us the story. You dropped out and started a company. Tell the story. >> So I was attending Berkeley, and I'm very grateful that I was able to go to Cal. Particularly because I grew up in southern California where around the time that I grew up, there really wasn't a lot of start-ups or entrepreneurial minded people. And I came up here and became really immersed in tech and that was my first foray into it. And during college, I was working at a gaming company to help support myself through school. And just really fell in love with it. And decided that was truly what I wanted to do. My parents supported my decision, and so with their help and approval, I started building games. And I've been building games since, again, the mid-to-late 90s until now. Ran a couple of companies. Founded a few of them. And the latest one that I founded was a few years ago called Second-Wave Games. We had sold it to a larger company called World Golf Tour. And here I am now building tools for game developers actually. >> And what an evolution. You go back, I mean, the Nokia phones. You know, then the iPhone hit the scene. The smart phones. So everything in-between has been a balance of being creative with software and art, if you will gaming as art. What has changed? I mean obviously things fail, because it's a content business. Content is games. So there's always that symbiotic relationship between hardware and software. Who pushes who? Is it the yin and the yang? Or is it the good and the bad? What's going on between the relationship these days? Because we certainly see it on the enterprise side. Software at the end is driving infrastructure. What's the relationship from the content, from the artistry standpoint, and the handset. >> From our point, content makers are not very interested in any platform or hardware that doesn't have the distribution. But the hardware manufacturers need the content in order to push the distribution of hardware. So it becomes a chicken and the egg problem. And it really depends on the approach that people will take. The content distributors do not own the platform. They don't own the distribution of the actual devices that will run things. So it really kind of falls on the hardware manufacturers to decide what path they will go down. We will see more aggressive things like Microsoft when they first launched the Xbox for example. They took a heavy loss on every unit that they sold. But they were focused primarily on distribution. And then, they hit on this magic, very very like, really really run-away hit called Halo. You like Halo, you have to play on Xbox. It's not available on the other consoles. >> And Call of Duty right after it. >> Call of Duty right after it. >> The list is endless. >> So that becomes a really excellent example of how content drives adaptation of hardware. Because if you are huge fans of this title, you have to go to this hardware. And there is no other argument about it. >> It's interesting, the evolution of the internet, early adopters you saw as the adult industry. It was a leading indicator of the trends in online advertising. That's a big joke in the industry. Now, you are seeing the leading indicators in terms of cutting-edge pioneer blade trailers is gaming. Virtual communities, virtual currencies, the gaming culture you can almost use as a precursor to what you're seeing on the crypto side with blockchain. You can see on the Augmented Reality. That's a gamification of life where now the content is the real world. So that's super exciting for someone who has been in the gaming era. And software developers got to be sitting there licking their chops saying, hey I want to get in on this. >> So at my current company, SEWORKS, when we started developing our solution, we actually tested it first and foremost with gaming. With gaming apps above everything else. And people were a little puzzled thinking why would you test gaming above finance or healthcare or IOT? And our answer is because gaming is the most complex thing anyone can possibly make. It contains pretty much every single piece of technology that you could ever know. There are communications layers, there have the most sophisticated graphics layers, they have intense AI layers, they have intense algorithms, anything calculated, and it is in itself an inherit small economical ecosystem as well. So it is a very complex mini-world that you are building inside of the constraints of one application which then has to be very sophisticated in technology in order to run on our current set of hardware and devices. So it's the most challenging thing that we could build for and that's why we chose it. And I see the same thing happening. Gaming is life and life is games. Outside of solving your very basic human needs of shelter, food, and sleep, clothing. What's the immediate next thing that you want to do? People want to be entertained in some format or another. And games are really just almost like a primal urge in an instant. >> Yeah, and you said you're seeing the intersection of E-commerce, entertainment, and web services or cloud. Which you can bundle in IOT, all intersecting. And that's really what the real world is. Analog digital coming together is the consumerization of physical and digital. Which Samsung is putting out there. And this is the perfect beginning wave coming. Do you agree? >> I think so. As I was sitting through the keynote today, and I'm just reflecting on the future where I can watch TV and there's this beautiful scene of a local in northern California. Then I say, I want to go! And I jump in my car and the destination is magically loaded on my GPS in my very smart car, and it just takes me there. I don't have think about it. And on the way, they've already made reservations, right? It seems like a very seamless integration of everything if it's ideally done, and part of me, I think the security paranoia in me, is also a little afraid that too much information is going to be not necessarily a good thing in a lot of senses, because what we see, and what I've seen in almost 20 years of tech, is every time we rush to new technology, new platforms, new distribution, methodologies, people rush in and make the same mistakes over and over again. So I am a little afraid that with this era, it's going to be exactly the same. Where we see explosion of growth, we see explosion of content, people coming in with a gold rush, and then a few years later when thing are established, we're going to start to see the security leaks, the data leaks, the breaches. >> It's kind of like you don't know that smoking is bad for you until they realized people die of lung cancer. It's like data is the same thing. You don't know how much privacy you have given up. I mean look at Equifax. There's going to be more of those. So I think permission-less, permission-based data security, huge issue governing. That's big. >> It is, particularly because your average consumer is not very privacy sensitive. If I want to use something, I want to use something and asking me for permissions is just a hurdle that if I'm motivated enough to actually use a service, or use an app, I'm just going to keep brushing aside without really thinking about it. And alarmingly, the number of apps that we look at, the number of permissions that they ask, is kind of scary. >> Mary, great to have you on the cube. Great conversation. Great thought leadership. I'll give you the final word. What are you guys doing at SEWORKS? What are you up to after the event? What are some of the things you're working on? Get the plug in for your company. >> Yeah, so, what SEWORKS does is, we do tools for developers to help you alleviate your security needs when you're developing for mobile apps or for IOT or for connected, anything actually. If you're building on Android or iOS, we have a solution for you. We're essentially like your armory so we outfit you with an incredible shield that protects your application when it ships to the public. Against hacking and reverse engineering. >> So security as a service? >> We're security as a service. Just think of us as your on-call hackers, how's that? >> Great, your white hat shield for the apps, for mobile, mobile development is hot obviously. New user experiences and expectations are here. There's a big wave coming in, we're seeing on machine learning. You're seeing with AI. And certainly Augmented Reality and Virtual Reality. All powered by unlimited compute in the cloud. Mary Min, SEWORKS, The Cube, more live coverage here in San Francisco after the short break.

(energetic music playing) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman here at the Silicon Ango Media Office in Palo Alto, happy to welcome back to the program Kiran Bhageshpur, who is the CEO of Igneous Systems. Kiron, great to see you. >> Great to see you again, Stu. >> Alright, so we've been really busy at theCUBE looking at so many big trends, and of course, really looking at kind of massively scalable distributed type of architectures are something we've been looking at, and something I know Igneous has been doing since the earliest days. But, the exact focus of what you've been working on, I think's changed a little bit since you first came out of Stealth and we've been looking at what your doing. So, why don't you bring our audience up to speed. >> Love to do that. It's not changed so much as expanded if you will. We launched, I believe I was here last, in October of last year, just as we were getting ready to launch. And, at that time, we launched the company and the platform, which the beginning services was object of the service, televert as a service and the enterprise data center. And, that was just the beginning. We've gone on since then, expanded the number of native services available, but really what we have done is built applications on top of that. So, the first application that we have developed and deployed at customers is backup and archive for massive file systems. So, we are talking about people who have terabytes of data, billions of files, spread across hundreds of systems. So, that's kind of been a pretty exciting thing, and it's a very unique set of challenges both for customers and for us to go forward. >> So, it's interesting, just step back for a second, object storage is something. If you talk to anybody that's a storage technologist they're like absolutely the way we need to architect things. But, usually we tend to get away from talking about object storage itself, and truly what do I do with it, what are those applications, what are those use cases. So, there's still object underneath it if I understand it right, it's just you're getting closer, moving up the stack a little bit, and getting closer to what your customers were asking for. >> Absolutely. The underlying infrastructure is still a collection of cloud services, not just object and S3, but a bunch of other services, which are very API compatible with the cloud, but, really, that doesn't matter because those are just tools. What matters is what are you doing with that, and what we are doing to begin with is really backup, archive, and discovery of massive files inside the enterprise. >> Alright, so there're some backup we've been doing for a long time, but backup has been broken. We were at the VM world show, there was a lot of buzz around some of the new companies, sometimes they called them secondary storage; you know, Rubric, Cohesity, Veem who everybody knows from the virtualization world, why don't you tell us are you part of kind of a similar wave? How do you kind of compare and contrast that to some of those other players? >> Great question. It's similar, but quite different. So, if you look at Rubric or Veem, for example, Veem really came about by doing tight integration with Veemware and doing a Veemware specific backup, which was the right technology, the right time for VMS and virtualization. Similarly, Rubric, and for that matter Cohesity, are really re-imagining data protection primarily for structured workflows, databases, physical servers, VMS, tightly integrating it and re-imagining how that feels from an experience point of view. We are really looking explicitly at unstructured data. This is data which lives on network devices from a net-app or a deliMC or a whole bunch of others and the content is really digital assets. It's data that could be media data, it could be microscopy imaging, it could be design data for a variety of work flows and this stuff continues to grow. It is monotonically increasing in every place, whether it is on premises or on the cloud or the edge, and protecting and managing this data is really a challenge and getting worse for customers. >> Yeah, the word that keeps coming up a lot is data. And, one of the things I know we've been excited about storage use to be about storing it. Now when we're talking about data, how do I leverage it? How do I get get value out of it? How do I discover different pieces of it? How have you been seeing these changes, your background you worked on some of the scale-out NASA solutions in the past, so how do we see kind of, unlocking the value of data? >> Yeah, you are absolutely right. If you go back 10 years ago, the real problem with how do I store all of this data, today there are plenty of solutions for ways you store data, especially on the primary teir, right? The challenge is really getting data from where it lives to where it's needed, whether it is backing it up or archiving it into the cloud. Being able to automatically discover things about it. Simple things like how is it growing, who is using it, how big is it, how much of it is what size of data? What about things you can infer about it by looking at the type of data it is. This is what now becomes valuable because if you look at the data sets and sizes, even modest size businesses today will have para bytes of data, billions of files, and that's challenging for any system system to go, sort of understand, unless you build it as a part of the platform. >> Okay, how about organizationally? Yah know, one of the other shifts we've seen is, you know, it used to be the storage administrator. How do I, how do I grow, how do I manage it, how do I have all of my protections and things set? A lot of the types of applications you are using are closer to the business, this is what runs the business. The business user needs to be involved. How are you setting your solution up to, you know, do what the business user needs? >> Great, yeah that's a good question. Today if you look at this data sets, this is not stuff that is an IT application. It's an end-user business focused application where they research in a life sciences world, or its designed in an electronic design world, right? And in all of these cases, essentially the end-user cares, because this data is critical to their daily working, working experience. Now, IT is clearly involved; it's a clear sort of partner of the business unit and actually operationalizing this data and making it easier to go consume. But now, it's really a joint thing, the final decision maker is always the end-user. In fact, we find ourselves in multiple places where we talk to IT, and talk to the IT teams. They get excited, but very quickly they bring in the end-users to make certain, whether the end-users are researchers or software developers, or even (mumbles) to make it so that they're comfortable with what we're talking about and they get really excited and that's sort of the starting point for our deployments. >> Yeah, we saw a similar dynamic between the business and the IT when we talked about cloud. And when I talked cloud I specifically mean public cloud and your customers, I have to imagine, they're all using public cloud in one way or another. Maybe, explain that dynamic how public cloud fits in with what your doing and how some of those IT and business people. >> Right. Look, cloud is simply the most disruptive trend in the last 10 years. In fact, you have to go back to Veemware, and Veemware's virtualization to see another trend of that magnitude. And all of our customers are embracing the cloud. They are wanting to go adopt cloud patterns, if you will. But the 180 over there massively challenged is around large data sets. Think about it, if you have terabytes of data that continues to grow, it's billion of files, it's spread across multiple geographies and dozens to hundreds of systems, it's a challenge to go leverage this in the cloud. So they're looking to ask, to be able to go chart the journey from all on premise, to a true hybrid world where they can use those cloud patterns much more effectively. >> Yah know I'm curious, and maybe it doesn't fit exactly for what Igneous is doing today. But, we've been talking about the data center versus the public cloud and a lot of those environments. I talked to some companies, that, you know, when I'm building those data legs, I'm doing that in the public cloud too. Then the discussion that's come up a lot in the past year, is Edge; so, IOT applications, we know we're going to have orders of magnitude more devices, and there's going to be a lot of data but the requirement for the data center versus the public cloud versus the Edge are very different. How does Igneous look at that? How are you having those discussions? Customers, how do they get their arms around all the various places of data?-- >> Right. You're absolutely right. The requirements are different, as in the public cloud is this massive hyper-scale, always available. The enterprise is a smaller version of that. And the Edge has a very different physical characteristics. But, what we believe is important is the same patterns, the same API's are available everywhere. And if you look at what the big public cloud providers are doing, Amazon with, you know, Snowball, and Green Grass, they're trying to go move their API's out and we completely embrace that trend. And, that's one of the reasons we built our platform to be API compatible with the cloud, with a variety of the cloud services. Because that means the services we run can run in the enterprise data center or in the public cloud or on the Edge all on a platform which is appropriate for the three. >> Yeah, and, to drill down to specifically, you say API compatible, that's S3, that's fully compatible. And do we have an API creep every cloud seems to have not only one API but many API's especially our friends at Amazon, what are you seeing out there, and what is the breath of offering they have today? >> Yeah, so, its SS3 is a constant storage leg is the obvious one, but the ones we did not talk about the last time were things like index store. So this is the equal of Amazon's dynamoDB, or Azure's table store the ability to go store a massive amount of index. But it's not just that. It's also the ability to go around compute, close to the data, which boils down to Cubanaties and containers. So all these three are part of our on the line platform. We don't talk about that to customers except after they become customers; we really focus on the application which is back up, archive, and discovery of all of their file data. >> Yeah, Kiran, take me inside the customers you are talking to; a lot of times we're like, I hear this term secondary storage out there and I worked on converge and hyper-converge stuff, you know, those terms are something that customers hear about after awhile, but they don't solve the problem. What, can you help translate for us, what's going on in your customers and why is secondary storage important to them? What's different than traditional back up, and how do you fit in? >> Right, so if you look at all of these guys, the data, the fundamental truth is data sets are growing and they are growing monotonically. Every year it is more. We've talked to folks where in the two years that we've spent as we were growing up as a company, they've sort of essentially had a 40 percent growth in their on search data sets, right? So then, the question is a couple of things. One, they clearly realize that not all of that stuff needs to live, or should live, on high performance, relatively expensive primary tiers. Right? That's the first set of piece. But the question is, how do you find out, what is active what is not active and how do you move it to the appropriate place; so this is sort of trend line and this is the patterns that they are living with. What we do is go in, very simply start off by saying, lets go find all of your filers, you know some of them, some of them you may not even know about, and let's go automatically back-up all of the data, and give you intelligence about all that. What is sort of simple intelligence. The intelligence could be how infrequently are these data sets changing, how frequently are parts of this data being accessed or modified by your applications. So that's sort of first part of this. And when this drives to is, not only does this reduce the cost of backup, which is really an insurance policy, it makes possible a bunch of intelligence about the data itself which is the beginnings of, sort of appropriately staging data on the right infrastructure. >> Alright. Kiran, you've had a number of customers since the early days talk to us a little bit about the journey you've been going on with them. How many of them have been pulling you towards the direction you are now going? What's their response been? To I guess what you call it, kind of storage as a service? >> Yeah, you know people love the whole concept of our offering as a service; initially when we talked of customers they kind of a little skeptical of our ability to go do this but they very quickly fall in love with that. It's pretty amazing. What's not to like about infrastructure that is inside your data center but that you do not have to manage at all? And when I say do not manage, people don't even look at things like drives or CPUs or network. That's not the world they live in. They live in the world of what's logically important to them, which if my backup's running, is my data being archived, how quickly is my data growing, who is accessing this data? And so on, and it goes to the next level, which is they don't have to go to manage things like software updates, just like you don't know what version of Gmail you're running or you do not know what version of S3 is being used in the cloud. Our customers don't know what version it is. Is it API level compatible or is it guarantee the services are not interrupted; and they absolutely love that aspect once they get used to it. We tell our customers, "You don't call us, we call you if there is an issue." And we're living up to that and they are pretty jazzed about that. >> Yeah, I love that. Kind of the version control thing is something we said is something, is cloud experience is actually what we want. (Mumbles) when we wrote true private cloud is exactly that; you don't know or care what version of Azure you're running, you assume that they're going to test that out and do that. Can you give us any kind of concrete examples, customers, love if you can share any names, but a lot of your customers are quite big, but what are the concrete results? What are they seeing, any good stories you can share? >> Yeah! So I give you an example of one of our largest customers, can't mention the name, but it is a large tech company in California. There's a lot of large tech companies in California-- (giggles) >> There's a bunch, yeah. >> Well, lets go through the South in California. And, these folks had an enormous amount of data. We started off by telling them, "Hey give us your most "complex systems, the ones that you are not able "to go back up today." And we started with their file systems, which were literally had this thing called file density, which is an enormous number of files in a relatively small amount of storage. So you're talking about a billion plus files and terabytes of data, and this is things that they had never been able to back up and we go off and we were able to go back it up and completely system protect. So, that's an example of a used case where we can go to a customer and allow them to accomplish what they cannot do today just from a basic back-up point of view. And, take it to the next level. In fact they did this great demo for their internal teams where they showed how easy it is to search through this data and essentially accomplish in seconds what typically, in their current world, takes hours to do. >> Okay, yeah, that's great. Yeah, sounds like you have some really good interesting, large companies there. Is that, what's the typical profile you see? Is it really companies that have specific challenges because they've got the massive scale? How far down does this scale? >> So. Uh, that's a common question that comes along. And the way I like to answer that is we are applicable to people with lots of data. It turns out it could be much smaller companies with lots of data, so we've got customers who are in the hundreds of people only world-wide, maybe two or three locations, but they are really looking at a multi-terabyte sized data problem. Similar data density problem. In fact, another one that we are working with has got 300 million files and a terabyte of data. How do you back it up? How do you go discover information about that? That's what we solve, and for these smaller companies which still have the problem, they are actually starting to find out about us and come to us. Which is really gratifying. >> Okay, well you seem pretty excited about it, about the space, what's exciting you the most about where we are today with the technology. >> The really sure is, people talk about data and they immediately go to databases, they talk about virtualization and physical servers. But that's not where the data lives. The data hasn't lived there for over a decade. And more and more of the data lives outside in files and object and there is this sort of ability to go understand that better, manage that better, protect that better and last but not least, provide intelligence to users because this data is something they care about. People are not keeping this because somebody else told them to; it is their life blood. It is their sort of livlihood, if you will, from a company point of view, and helping customers be able to go take that to the next level will bring this sort of cloud patterns to these used cases. That's pretty exciting. >> Yeah, absolutely! Want to sort of give you the final word. I hear this and I think about, you know, the whole wave of big data, what we're starting to talk about, you know, continuously with AI and ML really it is about unlocking data, so huge opportunities going forward. Any of the other trends outside what we've discussed already that you want to give us for a final word? >> You know, the last thing that I say is it is about data. It is about complete automation all across the, across the sky, weather it is storing, managing, or deriving intelligence and the reason you want to go automate all that stuff using intelligence in the software systems itself is simply because it's too large. There's no other way to go do it. And last, but not the least, all of the stuff has to be offered as a service because the cloud has gotten people really hooked on this sort of, comparatively, easy world of not having to go managing infrastructure. And I think those are the three things we should, we hold by. >> Alright, Kiran Bhageshpur, I really appreciate the update on Igneus systems. Absolutely customers dealing with massive amounts of data, how do I unlock the value of that without having to be down in the guts which has really been the history of storage. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (energetic music playing)

>> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles. It's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by, the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello everyone, welcome back. Our live coverage, theCUBE's live coverage, of the Open Source Summit in North America, it's a part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier your host, with Stu Miniman our co-host. Our next guest is Tanmay Bakshi, who is an IBM honorary cloud advisor, algorithmist, former CUBE alumni. Great to see you. >> Thank you very much! Glad to be here! >> You get taller every year. It was what, three years ago, two years ago? >> I believe yeah, two years ago, Interconnect 2016. >> IBM show... doing a lot of great stuff. You're an IBM VIP, you're doing a lot of work with them. IBM Champion. >> Thank you >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> What's new? You're pushing any code today? >> Definitely! Now today, getting ready for my BoF that I've got tonight, it's been absolutely great. I've been working on a lot of new projects that I'm going to be talking about today and tomorrow at my keynote. Like I've been working on AskTanmay, or course you know, Interconnect 2016, very first time I presented AskTanmay. Since then, a lot has changed, I've incorporated real, deep learning algorithms, custom, with tensorflow. Into AskTanmay, AskTanmay now thinks about what it's actually looking at, using Watson as well, it's really interesting. And of course, new projects that I'm working on, including DeepSPADE, which actually, basically helps online communities, to detect, and of course report and flag spam, from different websites. For example, Stack Overflow, which I'm working on right now. >> So you're doing some deep learning stuff >> Tanmay: Yes >> with IBM Watson, the team, everything else. >> Tanmay: Exactly, yes. >> What's the coolest thing you've worked on, since we last talked? (laughing) >> Well it would have to be a tie between AskTanmay, DeepSPADE, and advancement to the Cognitive Story. As you know, from last time, I've been working on lots of interesting projects, like with AskTanmay, some great new updates that you'll hear about today. DeepSPADE itself though, I'd like to get a little bit more into that. There's actually, I mean of course, everyone listening right now has used Stack Overflow or Stack Exchange at one point in their lives. And so, they've probably noticed that, a little bit, here and there, you'd see a spam message on Stack Overflow, on a comment or post. And of course there are methods to try and prevent spam on Stack Overflow, but they aren't very effective. And that's why a group of programmers, known as Charcoal SE, actually went ahead and started creating, basically this sweep to try and prevent spam on Stack Exchange. And they call it, SmokeDetector. And it helps them to find and remove spam on Stack Exchange. >> This is so good until it goes out, and the battery needs to be replaced, and you got to get on a chair. But this whole SmokeDetector, this is a real way they help create a good, healthy community. >> Yes, exactly. So, they try and basically find spam, report to moderators, and if enough alarms are set off, they try and report it, or flag it automatically, via other people's accounts. And so basically, what I'm trying to do is, I mean, a few weeks ago, when I found out about what they're doing, I found out that they use regular expressions to try and find spam. And so they have, you know, years of people gathering experience, they're experts in this field. And they keep, you know, adding more regular expressions to try and find spam. And since I, you know, am really really passionate about deep learning, I thought why not try and help them out, trying to augment this sort of SmokeDetector, with deep learning. And so, they graciously donated their data set to me, which has a good amount of training, training rows for me to actually train a deep learning system to classify a post between spam or non-spam. And you'll be hearing a lot more about the model architecture, the CNN plus GRU model, that I've got running in Keras, tonight during my BoF. >> Now, machine learning, could be a real benefit to spam detection, cause the patterns. >> Tanmay: Exactly. >> Spammers tend to have their own patterns, >> Tanmay: Exactly. >> as do bots. >> Tanmay: Yes, exactly, exactly. And eventually, you realize that hey, maybe we're not using the same words in every post, but there's a specific pattern of words, or specific type of word, that always appears in a spam message. And machine learning would help us combat against that. And of course, in this case, maybe we don't actually have a word, or a specific website, or a specific phone number, that would trigger a regular expression alarm. But in the context that this website appears, machine learning can tell us that, "hey, yeah, this is probably a spam post." There are lots of really interesting places where machine learning can tie in with this, and help out with the accuracy. In fact, I've been able to reach around 98% accuracy, and around 15 thousand testing rows. So, I'm very glad with the results so far, and of course, I'm continuing to do all this brand retuning and everything... >> Alright, so how old are you this year? I can't keep the numbers straight. Are you 13, 14? >> Well originally, Interconnect 2016, I was 12, but now I'm 13 years old, and I'm going to be 14 in October, October 16th. >> Okay, so you're knocking on 14? >> Tanmay: Uh, not just yet there, I'll be 14... >> So, Tanmay, you're 14, you're time's done, at this point. But, one of your missions, to be serious, is helping to inspire the next generation. Especially here, at the Open Source Summit, give us a preview of what we're going to see in your keynote. >> Sure, definitely. And now, as you mentioned, in fact, I actually have a goal. Which is really to reach out to and help 100 thousand aspiring coders along their journey, of learning to code, and of course then applying that code in lots of different fields. In fact I'm actually, already around 4,500 people there. Which, I'm very very excited about. But today, during my BoF, as I mentioned, I'm going to be talking a lot about the in-depth of the DeepSpade and AskTanmay projects I've been working on. But tomorrow, during my keynote, you'll be hearing a lot about generally all the projects that I've been working on, and how they're impacting lots of different fields. Like, healthcare, utility, security via artificial intelligence and machine learning. >> So, when you first talked to us about AskTanmay, it's been what almost 18 months, I think there. What's changed, what's accelerating? I hear you throw out things like Tensorflow, not something we were talking about two years ago. >> Tanmay: Yeah. >> What have been some of the key learnings you've had, as you've really dug into this? >> Sure, in fact, this actually something that I'm going to be covering tonight. And that is, that AskTanmay, you could say, that it's DNA, well, from AskMSR, that was made in 2002. And I took that, revived it, and basically made it into AskTanmay. In its DNA, there were specific elements, like for example, it really relies on data redundancy. If there's no data redundancy, then AskTanmay doesn't do well. If you were to ask it where it was, where's the Open Source Summit North America going to be held, it wouldn't answer correctly, because it's not redundant enough on the internet. It's mentioned once or twice, but not more than that. And so, I learned that it's currently very, I guess you could say naive how it actually understands the data that it's collecting. However, over the past, I'd say around six or seven months, I've been able to implement a BiDAF or Bi-Directional Attention Flow, that was created by Allen AI. It's completely open-source, and it uses something that's called a SQuAD data set, or Stanford Question and Answer Data Set. In order to actually take paragraphs and questions, and try to return answers as snippets from the paragraphs. And so again, integrating AskTanmay, this allows me to really reduce the data redundancy requirement, able to merge very similar answers to have, you know better answers on the top of the list, and of course I'm able to have it more smart, it's not as naive. It actually understands the content that it's gathering from search engines. For example, Google and Bing, which I've also added search support for. So again, a lot has changed, using deep learning but still, sort of the key-points of AskTanmay requires very little computational power, very very cross-platform, runs on any operating system, including iOS, Android, etc. And of course, from there, open-source completely. >> So how has your life changed, since all the, you've been really in the spotlight, and well-deserved I think. It's been great to have you On theCUBE multiple times, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you No, definitely of course. >> Dave Vallante was just calling. He wants to ask you a few questions himself. Dave, if you're watching, we'll get you on, just call right now. What's going on, what are you going to do when... Are you like happy right now? Are you cool with everything? Or is there a point where you say, "Hey I want to play a little bit with different tools", you want more freedom? What's going on? >> Well, you see, right now I'm very very excited, I'm very happy with what I'm doing. Because of course I mean, my life generally has changed quite a bit since last Interconnect, you could say. From Interconnect 2016 to 17, to now. Of course, since then, I've been able to go into lots of different fields. Not only am I working with general deep learning at IBM Watson, now I'm working with lots of different tools. And I'm working especially, in terms of like, for example Linux. What I've been doing with open-source and everything. I've been able to create, for example, AskTanmay now integrated Keras and tensorflow. DeepSpade is actually built entirely off of tensorflow and Keras. And now I've also been able to venture into lots of different APIs as well. Not just with IBM Watson. Also things like, we've got the Dandelion API. Which AskTanmay also relies off of Dandelion, providing text similarity services for semantic and syntactic text similarity. Which, again, we'll be talking about tonight as well. So, yeah, lot's has changed, and of course, with all this sort of, new stuff that I'm able to show, or new media for which I'm able to share my knowledge, for example, all these, you know CUBE, interviews I've been doing, and of course all these keynotes, I'm able to really spread my message about AI, why I believe it's not only our future, but also our present. Like, for example, I also mentioned this last time. If you were to just open up your phone right now, you already see that you're, half of your phone is powered by AI. It's detecting that hey you're at your home right now, you just drove back from work, and it's this time on this day, so you probably want to open up this application. It predicts that, and provides you with that. Apart from that, things like Siri, Google Now, these are all powered by AI, they're already an integral part of our lives. And of course, what they're going to be doing in our lives to come is just absolutely great. With like, healthcare, providing artificial communication ability for people who can't communicate naturally. I think it's going to be really really interesting. >> Tanmay, it's always great have you on theCUBE. Congratulations. >> Tanmay: Thank you very much. >> AskTanmay, good projects. Let's stay in touch, as we start to produce more collaboration, we'd love to keep promoting your work. Great job. And you're an inspiration to many. >> Tanmay: Thank you very much, glad to be here. >> Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Live coverage from the Open Source Summit's theCUBE, in Los Angeles. I'm John Furrer, Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more live coverage after short this break. (upbeat music)