>> You don't know me, I watch theCUBE. I queue up your videos, I listen to 'em while I'm on the treadmill. It helps me learn. It expands my knowledge, thank you. So it's really an honor to be part of that community. This is Dave Vellante, thanks for watching theCUBE, and for more information, just click here. (gentle techno music) >> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's theCUBE, covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we are winding down at Open Networking Summit 2017, it's quite a conference. A lot of buzz about open-source as it goes into the networking space and continues to find traction. A lot of big companies donating projects to open-source, and then of course 5G and IoT, and the innovation never stops. So, Scott, really enjoying having Scott Raynovich cohost with us for these last couple days. Scott, what'd you think? >> Thanks again, Jeff. It's been a great show, lots of activity, some good news flow, actually announcements, and people opening up to us about open-source. As you said, lots of good stuff. >> Right. So I should've checked the tape from 2014, 'cus I think you actually co-hosted theCUBE at ONS in 2014, a long time ago. But clearly the narratives are changing quite significantly from there. >> Totally different world. >> You've been following this thing forever. So, before we get into some of the specifics, just kind of your general impressions of direction, and speed in that direction, as we continue to evolve. >> Sure, sure. Well, we talked a little bit about it with Martin, and that Martin kind of talked about in his keynote, how when he started Nicira, which for those of you who don't follow the SDN world, was kind of one of the first big open-networking startups, you know, let's have our code base be based on open-source, and have commodity hardware, run the software so anybody can swap in any hardware and run the software. That's the concept of open-networking and SDN. As Martin pointed out, when he started, it was like a speculative academic project. And he had no idea what it would become, and he pointed out it's now, after it was acquired by VMware, it's now a billion dollar business. And then we have other people, like AT&T, talking about in the keynote, John Donovan talking about how they're moving from 30% SDN open-networking last year, to more than 50%. So they're going to cross over, so that the majority of their network will be based on homegrown open-networking technology. Leveraging a lot of this open-source, that is the main topic of this show, which is run by the Linux foundation, which has become kind of the giant mega aggregator of networking open-source technologies. So, the main message is, we've gone from the academic speculative phase, to the actual let's get this stuff into production, let's run networks on it, and let's deliver your YouTube videos faster. >> Right, right. And as you look at the sponsor sheet behind us, right, a lot of startups, a lot of innovation, that comes with open-source. But you've still got Cisco, and Juniper, and the incumbents, and we had Dave Ward on from Cisco. So as you look at kind of the incumbent positionings, that benefited from a non open-source world, and dedicated, integrated boxes. >> Absolutely. >> How do you see them reacting and shifting in this new kind of market paradigm? >> Well, the first thing is, they all like to talk about software more than the hardware, right? 'Cause you notice that the discussion tends to focus on software these days. So they know that these hardware platforms are being commoditized, and you have these third-party manufacturers, that are coming out with these so-called "white boxes", which is the generic third-party hardware, that can run all the software. So, Juniper and Cisco are obviously, they have lots of software products, but you see from their acquisition strategies, they're focusing on buying software companies now, and they want to become known as software companies. And, I think, you know, they have a shot. They certainly haven't, lets not, say that Cisco hasn't stopped selling network gear, they're still a huge power in the space. >> Jeff Frick: There's a lot of it (laughs) >> And it's not like everybody is running out to buy commodity hardware, they're still looking for people to help them integrate, people to help provide service and support. The so-called, "throat to choke." >> One throat to choke, right, right. >> Yeah so, you know, that's kind of where they're moving. But obviously some of these companies are big oil tankers and you don't turn them around in a day. >> Right. And then we had Intel on, interesting conversation about 5G. Basically, the message being, 5G is now, you're saying, coming back from Mobile World Congress, it's not quite now. But really, the point was, we're preparing for it coming, which is why the preparation is now. So again, your prospective on 5G, interesting keynote this morning, you're talking about orders of magnitude of change, in the mobile network data capacity, over all these various iterations, and how it's really moving to, from, you know, voice to data, but now, not only from data, from people, but obviously things, internet of things. So, as you look at that kind of evolution, it's coming, right? It's coming in a big, big, big, way. >> Totally, totally. Yeah, I mean 5G is a, I mean, we could talk about 5G all day long. There's so many questions and debates about it. You know, Sandra Rivera, who we had on, from Intel, had some really good points, which is, if you're providing the fundamental technology like Intel, that the chips for the NFE Box, is the chips for the radio. The end to end solution in the semi-conductor space, you obviously have to invest now, and prepare for 5G. The standard won't be ratified or complete 'til, at least, well, they're saying possibly late 2018, but everybody really thinks it's 2019, 2020. But, the biq question is the applications, to your point. There's kind of this explosion of these new wireless WAN technologies, if you will, and internet of things is driving a lot of that. You know, you hear about the self-driving cars,right? >> Right, right. >> The trucks that are going to communicate back to HQ, and tell the boss where they are all the time, and how much fuel they're consuming, and how fast they're going, what their average. This Internet of Things market, self-driving cars, that's going to drive the need for more sophisticated mobile networks. But in industrial space, there's a different need, for very low power, low bandwidth, there's a WAN technology called LoRa, LoRa WAN, which is different from 5G. So, what people are trying to figure out with 5G, is the applications. Where does it fit in? What is, actually, 5G? Verizon has announced a point to point 5G pilot project. It's really "pre 5G", you know 'cause 5G isn't here, but they're kind of experimenting with, as a fiber replacement. Jeff needs faster broadband, he doesn't want to wait for the truck to come in and install. >> Jeff Frick: And dig the cable. >> The cable maybe will have 5G, as a new last mile solution, point to point, or point to point for businesses, you know, the big oil derrick, that needs a big pipe. There's many different applications that are being discussed. You know, for 5G. >> And is the timing of the standard, is it just kind of going through its natural stages? Or are there a couple of, you know, kind of key items that are still being hashed out, that they can't come to agreement, or is just kind of working its way. >> Oh, there's many, many items. I mean, I'm not technically sophisticated enough to dive into all the different. They'll argue about, you know, the protocols for authentication. Exactly how much bandwidth do we need? Are there different flavors of it? A lower bandwidth flavor versus a gigabit flavor. What are the chip sets going to look like? It's a very complex standard. But more importantly, on the business side, the carriers are asking, "How much money are we going to have to spend, to deliver 5G? "And we just spent all this money on LTE "and all the licenses." (Jeff chuckles) >> And does LTE go away, when 5G comes, or they run those in parallel? >> It'll definitely co-exist. >> Jeff Frick: It'll still be there, right? >> Well, that's what I'm saying, that's the question. Like you, Jeff Frick, do you really need 5G now? And what are you going to pay for it? You need to pay so your kids can watch YouTube faster? >> No, but I definitely want my autonomous vehicle to hit the brakes on time, before I hit the pedestrian, so. There's definitely application. >> I didn't realize you had an autonomous vehicle. >> Not yet, but, you know, I'm hoping. If more people watch theCUBE, I'll get one faster. >> So next year, when you acquire your autonomous Tesla. >> Jeff Frick: Right, right, my autonomous, which they just sent the software download, which is amazing. That's a whole different story. Shifting gears, edge, lot of conversation about edge. We do a lot of stuff with G, and IoT, and as you like to say IIoT, the Industrial Internet of Things, and kind of, this whole concept of, you can't get everything back to the cloud, 'cause the speed of light is just too damn slow. >> Scott Raynovich: That's right, that's right. >> And we talked to Ihab Tarazi, from Equinix, and we talk about the edge at the devices, as you said, low power, nasty conditions, yes, we're alive, they're banging plates over there. But then he really talked about the edge of all the clouds, and really the edge in the data center side. Because most of this stuff is traveling peer to peer, direct connect, and having that edge between your organization and then back into all these various clouds. >> That's right, that's right. >> Pretty interesting take, as that kind of back end sophistication and interconnectivity, just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. >> Totally, totally. Google also talked about that, building a new B2, they call it the B2 peering network. If people don't realize, how sophisticated theses networks have to be, right? You think that you, you know, you download a video, and it's just out there, right? It's actually going through a private network possibly, you know, a Netflix, has their own network, then it's peering with your local ISP, it's peering somewhere with your last mile provider, or if you're on a mobile network, it might be getting to you a different way, and so the discussion of where the edge goes is very important because as you pointed out, with IoT computing processing, it takes a long time, as we see with Siri all the time. Have you ever had that problem where Siri's not there? >> Google's always there. >> Yeah (laughs) >> Ok Google, no it works seemlessly, perfectly all the time. >> Okay, you're an Android guy, so yeah. >> Not quite. (laughs) >> So when you ask that question, to Siri or Google, it's going back all the way to the cloud and making that computation, back somewhere in the cloud. So the question is, where should that computation happen? When Jeff Frick needs his breaks, to avoid knocking over the (laughs) >> Unless it's a criminal, that's a different piece of software, you actually want to hit the criminal. >> You don't want that computation getting hung up in the cloud, right? So that's what the debate about the edge is. >> It's fascinating, it's why I love being in this business, it just continues to evolve and change over time. So last thing really, we are at the Open Networking Summit, it's a Linux Foundation show, Linux took this over a litle while ago, and as you said earlier, this huge move to move a lot of these open-source projects to the Linux Foundation, for them to really provide a home, if you will, and a set of resources, and a set of, everything from the 501(c)(3), and everything else you need. AT&T talked about delivering their project open-sourced, today. We heard earlier from Dell EMC, making a contribution. So as you look at the evolution of open-source, and Linux Foundation, as a subset, and how it impacts this networking and software-defined networking catching up to, software-defined compute and software-defined storage. How significant is that, as a driver of this adoption? >> Well, it's a big move. Most of the folks here at ONS are really, more in a telecom world, if you think of networking. What's happened to networking over the last decade, it's moved from enterprise, more to cloud and telecom, right? If you're in enterprise, you don't have to worry about building your network as much anymore, because most of your applications are heading to the cloud, right, with your service provider. So they are emulating what the cloud leaders did. The cloud leaders, such as, Google, were very aggressive with open-source. And the telecom players saw how fast they moved, by sharing code, and having more of a grassroots approach to building the code base. So that's, the reason why it's a big move, is that's a huge shift for telecom, right? 'Cause telecom has, for decades, built their proprietary network so. You want an LTE? Okay, we're going to do it our way, and we're going to work with a vendor, and take years to build this very specific proprietary network. And they've looked at cloud, and they want the speed. They want it to be able to move faster. So AT&T talked about how, when they deployed this new white box network, in production, they did it in three months. Which is, incredible. From the chip coming out of the foundry, to developing the box and the software and the service, it took them three to four months. Which is just an incredible change from the way these networks used to be built, it use to take years. >> Right, well the other really interesting plan, you teased it out, with the announcement with AT&T and this little company SnapRoute, some little startup, and we also heard it from Drew at Dell EMC, that, because of the open-source connection via the Linux Foundation, it exposes them and creates an ecosystem that they can now leverage all the smarts, and ingenuity, and innovation, coming out of a sea of startups, that they may or may not, have ever had a direct relationship with, and to leverage that internally. Pretty cool factor there. >> Exactly, it can all happen a lot faster, 'cause if its all based on open standards, you can, just plug it in, doesn't work the first day, but three months is a big change from, you know, two years. >> Donkey ears. Alright, so last word, you're launching a new thing. >> Oh, great! >> The new Scott Raynovich, so give us, what's the new name, where can people get information, and when do you actually launch? I know that's a little preview, but that's okay. >> It's called Futuriom. That's R-I-O-M. You know, 'cause, the names are running out on the internet, I don't know if you noticed that. (Jeff chuckles) And it launches in two weeks, and it's my hybrid blog research platform. So I'll have contributed information, we'll have big reports on industrial IoT. It's a premium service, but we'll also have free reports. So you can download free stuff, you can download premium reports you want to understand about all of these emerging technologies, and IoT, SD-WAN, cloud infrastructure, where it's going, Futuriom is really-- >> If you can't figure out the spelling, just tweet to Scott, and ask him, he'll send you a link. Yeah, it's at the lower third, so. Well very exciting. >> Thanks a lot. >> And we look forward to watching it grow. And thanks for sitting in with me, here at ONS. >> Thanks, I always love doing theCUBE, so I hope to be back here soon. >> Absolutely, alright, so he's Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE. We are at ONS 2017 in Santa Clara. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. There's a busy schedule. Check SiliconANGLE.tv to see all the shows we're covering over the next several weeks. We'll be pretty much everywhere. So, we're out for now. Thanks, we'll catch you next time. Bye bye. (gentle techno)

>> Robert: It feels like we're talking because it's boring TV. Tech people love tech. Consumers love the benefit of tech. No consumer opens up their iphone and says oh my gosh, I love the technology behind my iphone. >> What's it been like, being on the Shark Tank? >> You know filming is fun and hanging out is fun and it's fun to be a celebrity at first. Your head gets really big and you get really good tables at restaurants. >> Who says tech isn't got a little pizazz. >> Voiceover: More skin in the game. In charge of his destiny, Robert Herjavec is Cube Alumni. Live from Santa Clara, California, it's the Cube covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux foundation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Rick here with the Cube. We're at the open networking summit 2017 in Santa Clara, California. I think it's the fourth year of the conference. We've been coming for a long time. It's pretty amazing, a lot of transformation is happening as this project moves from the conversational to the testing to actual. A lot of deployments being talked about in the keynotes. So happy to have Scott Raynovich joining me again. >> Pleasure as always, thank you. >> Did you have a good night last night? >> Excellent. >> Alright, super. Super guest Drew Schulke, he is the vice president of converged networking at Dell EMC. Drew, Welcome. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> You've been busy at this show. You're doing panels, you're doing keynotes, they're working you. >> It's been a bit of a whirlwind going on thus far. Yeah, I had a keynote talk on economic and organizational impacts of open networking, which went really, really well. A lot of great questions from the audience, really insightful questions on that. Have met with folks like yourself, some other folks in the media, some analysts, talking to some customers which is always nice to have. We'll close it out tomorrow with one of the keynotes. A panel discussion on the role of open source and moving to 5G where I'll be participating with some folks from Intel and Ericsson. I'm looking forward to that, but yeah, definitely a whirlwind week. >> So before we get into some of the specifics, just your general impressions as to how this thing has evolved over time. Impressions of this show this year. >> Yeah, great question. I think the thing that struck me the most this year was the amount of customers coming in and actually talking about putting a lot of the things we've been talking about at this summit for several years into production environments and seeing results out of it. Some great keynotes last night by some folks, Amadeus in the travel industry and talking about their journey actually moving things into production, I thought was fabulous. Which gives people a vision of what really is possible and moving these out of the theoretical and here's the vision, the strategy into here's how you can actually get things done and getting into results. Ultimately, when you put things into production, that's how you ultimately learn and refine things over time. It's a great move forward for us. >> Awesome, so on the economics and organizational impact of open networking, your keynote. What are some of those really key economic drivers that you outlined in that conversation? >> Yeah, great question. You can kind of break it into a capex and an opex discussion. On the capex side, what we've seen is this whole open networking model is built on merchant silicon and the commoditization of hardware, which may sound like okay, that's a bad thing. Well no, it's really, really good because what it's doing is it's allowing all of us to take the benefits of huge volume and scale that's going on. From the biggest cloud providers down to the enterprise, as we move into this hardware model that's based upon merchant silicon and more standard network designs that are capable of supporting multiple OS's, we all benefit from the economies of scale that go in that. We can amortize R&D investments over a larger number of things. That's all goodness, so there's a huge tailwind on the capex side. On the opex side, as we start to disaggregate the network stack and focus on the individual layers, it creates a different operational model that allows for a high degree of automation. One of the things that we brought up in the session was contrasting a study from 2013 where the typical enterprise network admin was controlling about 300 ports. That was the breadth of support that they had back in 2013. That same year, Facebook came out and said an individual operator can support up to 20,000 servers. It's not like they're just super humans. What happened in there was a level of automation. That's a key ingredient of our open networking strategy, is driving that automation. That's where you get true economies of scale on the opex side. Those are the main points on that one. >> Jeff: Yeah, good ones. >> So Drew, one of the themes we've seen here is that the Linux foundation has done a good job of consolidating some of the open source technology and putting them in the same place so we can all track them and figure out what's going to happen. You just told us about Dell donating some of your code to the Linux foundation. >> Drew: Correct. >> Why don't you explain how you made that decision and what you think it's going to do for your customers. >> Yeah absolutely, as a little bit of context, what we see happening in terms of networking software is one, it's become decoupled from the hardware. That's already done right now. But even when we start to look at the software side, we think there's more disaggregation possible. We can peel apart the layers of what currently is a network operating system today and create a based operating system upon which several different companies can come in and put in what at that point becomes applications on top of it to do things like an L2, L3 stack, or to do MLAG, or tapping, or anything like that. It creates an ecosystem similar to what we had with servers 20 years ago, where I've got an operating system that basically keeps the box running. Then I've got applications which are really the magic on top of it. That's sort of the context. What we donated was that base OS. We've worked on something called OS 10. We have an open edition of it which you can go out to the web and download for free today and start playing around with it. It's an unmodified Linux kernel currently based on the Debian distribution which we believe will serve as a solid foundation for that evolving network and ecosystem going forward. Linux foundation agreed with that and accepted our donation of that to be the foundation of the open switch project, which was talked a little bit about at this particular summit as well. We couldn't be happier to be working with the Linux foundation on the open switch project. Look forward to getting even more of the ecosystem working on that with someone like the Linux foundation behind it to build a very, very capable stack which ultimately benefits all of our customers at the end. >> Where will we see this code go into? What types of products and what markets? Is it NFE for telecom? Is it cloud servers? Where are we going to see this stuff? >> The wonderful thing about it is the answer is all of the above. That's the flexibility of it. Think of it as this way, which is maybe you have a telecom network that's focused on something like MPLS. A company that has a lot of good IP around MPLS can then write an application that can run on that base operating system giving the customer the ability to pick that specific application without having to worry about dragging on an operating system and hardware that may not be what they want. That's the telecom use case. Maybe it's a big cloud provider that has some very specific needs around an L2, L3 stack. Maybe they even have their own IP around that that they want to build on top of this OS. We've really opened up the degrees of freedom in that space across all of those industries. I certainly think where we see the early adopters and starting from that OS 10 base solution today, will be more in the telco service provider and in the cloud space, just because of the level of scale and what it is that they can benefit out of this level of flexibility. >> Excellent. >> There had to be some detractors before you open sourced this. I'm just curious, the conversation in the room about should we or should we not open source this project and take it out to the Linux foundation? What was ultimately the decision that pushed it out the door? >> Yeah, we had been working with some other open source based projects for a couple of years already, so there was a comfort level internally. But what we saw, I think going on in the networking space, was heavily influenced by what we saw going on in the server space 20 years ago when client server hit the scene. That stack became massively disaggregated. The folks who tried to keep these things stitched together into monolithic silos ultimately weren't successful. Either had to change their strategy, or drifted off into the sunset. We certainly was influenced by that history and looking forward at what we saw happening in this space. I'd say as well looking at a lot of the innovation coming out from open source projects and start ups in this space as well, doing some new and exciting things in networking. There was a big keynote yesterday and the panel discussion where a venture capitalist starting talking about, hey networking's cool again. I couldn't agree more where we're seeing startups come in and do really interesting things really, really well. What we're trying to do is create a model where those startups don't have to develop their own operating system and develop their own hardware and then all the management tools that go on top of it. Let them focus at what they're good at, which is a certain piece of IP. Let us work through things like the open networking foundation to drive disaggregation of the stack, making them successful. >> It's an interesting way too to build your community almost indirectly if you will. It's not like you have to sign a bunch of partner agreements and you can't keep track of all these startups and all your alliance people running around. But by putting it into the open source, especially with the Linux foundation just automatically, you're exposed to all these different types of new companies and innovations and that exposure goes both ways. >> Drew: Absolutely. >> It's a really cool trend, where we're seeing these big companies donate parts of these things into this formal situation that is the Linux foundation so it has a home and a place to live and grow. >> Absolutely. >> I want to shift gears a little bit. Today's keynote is about 5G. A lot of talk about 5G, mobile world congress is all about 5G but some people saying wait, it's not here yet, it's far out. But clearly, I think the message this morning from Sandra and also on the Cube yesterday is it's coming, but you don't just turn it on one day. You got to put all the pieces in place. What's Dell EMC's perspective on 5G? Where are you guys on this journey? >> For us in terms of where we play at an infrastructure level in the data center, for us, the key step right now is to get to this model where we can decouple function from location. Which is what the telecoms and the mobile networks have been trying to do through things like NFV. What we've been trying to do is help them on that journey long before we even get to the point where 5G is knocking at the door. Working with them today to put in the right infrastructure capable of supporting highly virtualized workloads and also capable of supporting a variety of different software defined networking solutions. If you get those components right, you're setting yourself up with a really good foundation for 5G. If 5G gets here and you haven't decoupled function and location yet in terms of your infrastructure or strategy that's going to be a tough one. What we're trying to do is shepherd that along and move that as fast as we can right now. >> We got Dell EMC World coming up pretty soon right? >> That's right, I hope to see you guys there. >> Previews of this? What can we expect to see? >> It will be interesting. This is the first time that as a combined company we're doing this event in Vegas. We had a preview in October as a newly closed transaction. This will have the full force effect of the combined Dell EMC firm coming together to put on a great show. Looking forward to it. Huge venue, I know you guys play a prominent role there. I'm hoping to see you guys there as well. Yes, there will be lots of announcements. I'm not going to go get myself in trouble by saying what any of those are four weeks in advance of when that's going to happen. >> No hints or anything. >> No hints, but certainly on the networking side, you'll hear a couple of announcements from us in terms of new products that we'll be talking about and stay tuned. >> I'll ask you the softer way to get to the same answer, but I know you're not going to give me the answer, but looking forward, 2017 what are some of your priorities top of mind that you guys are working on where if we see you a year from now, you'll report back that here's what we did in 2017? >> Clearly, this OS 10 strategy that we have, building upon this base is going to be key for that. Continuing to support the donations that we've made through the Linux foundation and Open Switch. Bringing in additional partners to develop on top of that to get their IP ready to be able to take advantage of that will be a key focus for us. But as well, there's some key networking speed transitions coming up that you got to keep pace with from a road map perspective, so you'll probably hear some things about that. Then as well just thinking from a Dell EMC perspective, as we look at how our portfolio as a company is evolving, a big shift toward software defined storage models, converged infrastructure, hyperconverged infrastructure. On the networking side, we're clearly trying to do everything we can to position ourselves to be a value add in any of those solutions today. That'll be the hint of the areas you can expect to hear about in May. >> That's good, that's a good little hint. It's a month to the Dell EMC World again the first combined Dell EMC World >> Drew: In Vegas. >> Well, last year we had EMC World in Vegas and Dell EMC World, it got very confusing. Now there's just one. We're like is it the Vegas one or the Austin one? So now there's just one, it's easier to keep track. >> Drew: One forum to rule them all. >> We look forward to Michael coming on, we had him on at both as well as VM World and it's always great to get his take as well. So Drew, thanks for stopping by and we look forward to seeing you in about a month in Vegas. >> Likewise, thanks guys, great time. >> Drew Schulke, Scott Reynovitch, Jeff Rick. You're watching the Cube from Open Networking Summit 2017. Thanks for watching. We'll be back after this short break. (bright music)

>> Host: Live, from Santa Clara, California, it's TheCUBE covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are coming to the end of day two at Open Networking Summit. We just got here today, it's a great show. Everyone who's talking everything about software-defined networking is here. And along with Scott Raynovich we're joined by Dave Ward, one of the luminaries doing panels, doing keynotes. >> Here we are in TheCUBE. >> And here we are. Dave is the CTO of Engineering and Chief Architect at Cisco Systems. So Dave, great to see you as always. >> Great to see you guys. >> So what's the buzz of the show, you've been here for a couple of days, any surprises? >> No real big surprises to be honest, always there's some great announcements and great launches going on. But really what I'm finding surprising is that this is the sixth year of this conference, can you believe that? So year six from where we started, and I may be the first person to say this, have you ever had anybody in theCUBE today talking about openflow? >> Jeff: No. >> Remember those days? >> Now, nothing against open flow that's not my point, but think about how far we've gone and so. >> Scott: Actually, yeah, Martin was talking about it. >> Course he did. Course he did. He's not going to let it go. (laughter) But love you Martin. But really my point is, look how far we've come in six years. Six years ago we had a protocol, small community, one group working on this stuff, really working in standards, there was no open-source associated with that at that time, now look where we are. Basically the place to do work is now in open-source and come together as a community. So, the buzz for me really is holy shit, this thing is real! There's a lot of people investing a lot of money and time and really trying to work together to improve and build the ecosystem around networking, around network functions, what services are being delivered and building a business off networking again, so networking is back. It's cool again. >> Jeff: Right. Great. And then there's this whole new thing coming down the pike in the form of 5G, and IoT that's just opening up a new opportunity kind of redefine, what are these standards, and how is this going to help push things along? >> Well, it's kind of interesting and so I'm just ripping for a second. When you take a look at where we've come over the last several years and it was SDN controllers and configuring the network. Then it was virtualizing the network. There was a lot of talk yesterday and today about analytics and creating a reactive network. All of that has been built in the those six years and come together in different open-source communities to build those pieces. We've got SDN controllers, projects like OpenDaylight, projects like FD.io, projects like PNDA, P-N-D-A-.io. That's the SDN virtualized network and data analytics piece, but when you get to 5G and IoT, one thing I'll be talking about tomorrow in my keynote, is that there're big blocks missing in the industry. So, let's dial it back to historically, remember when the HVAC contractor logged on to the network and that malware on that laptop stole 70 million credit cards, remember that? >> Yes. >> Still haven't solved that problem yet. And so the reason why I'm bringing this up is what's missing, identity. So we had this notion that networks controlled by IT operators that are going to go in and config and provision that network. Well, we're now to the point where we need to link people and things to be able to drive what that intent is on the network, and whether its buzz words, which is real functionality by the way, of micro-segmentation. HVAC contractor goes into a micro-segment, can't get to the point of sale, can't steal the credit cards. Basic bread and butter stuff we want from the network. This is what SDN is supposed to deliver, virtualized services like firewalls and other sporadic security, we'll just hold that for a second. But that linking of who the person is, what device they're on, where they are on campus, where they are in the world, etc., etc., time of day, whatever the case may be, are now the variables that need to go into the top of this system, into a policy engine that then drives that reactive network. We've made a couple of great strides in six years, but to get to 5G, and in particular to get to IoT, we have to have another couple of major blocks come into the industry to make that work well. Hopefully it's open-source where that's going to go, and it's not just a standards body and not just open-source, cuz we still need things to be manufactured and interoperable and the rest of it. So hopefully these things come together as we've seen the maturing of those two big groups. >> I was going to say, it kind of begs the question, what is the interplay between standards bodies versa or together with open-source projects? Cuz before you didn't really have open-sources standards really set. Set the regs. Now you've got these open-source projects, which have a main channel, they might start forking, there's all kinds of places that they can go, and how do the two kind of work together? >> Well there's been a ton of effort, and coming out of the SDN open-source movement around model-driven networking, and although it sounds kind of geeky, the main way of representing those models is through representation called YANG. The interesting thing about YANG is that's been not only adopted in SDN, as the main object and way of representing the models being converted to network and equipment computes, computers etc. But the IETF has taken that up and really driven a service approach through the IETF which is I want to deliver a VPN service, I want to deliver load engineering on the network versus what we did with SNMP, or what the industry did, which was I'm going to fully distribute this out to all the protocols and all the functions and everybody's going to write a NIB etc., etc. and we know how that turned out. So the craze for model-driven networking, the standards bodies picking this up, IETF, MEF, which is metro ethernet forum, broadband forum, BBF. All these organizations have now taken on that mantra that came out of open-source SDN of model-driven networking and are working towards creating those models so that way we will have a standardized way to program the network. But what's next is the telemetry coming out. Those objects need to be standardized so that way whether it's a Cisco device or somebody else's device, it's actually sending out the same data that can be collected and can be interpreted properly. Does it mean that it's a NIB? Does it mean that it's only going to go over one particular transport? I don't think anybody in the industry really cares whether it's JSON, Google RPC, Protobuffs, Netconf, or any of these pieces, they're all perfectly fine, they have different semantics associated with them, but nonetheless those common objects and common data models have been what has been the key to keeping the industry working together, the common architectural philosophy, and then the standards bodies have thankfully picked that up over the last couple of years. >> Yeah we were talking here earlier, I mean you just threw out a bunch of alphabet soup there and I understand 80% of it, but it does raise the issue we were talking about earlier about these standards development organizations and the IETF, the TM Forum, the MEF. Now we have open-source, so we have the Linux Foundation. We have a lot of these different organizations and I think while you would know better than I as a CTO, people are becoming challenged by tracking and following all this stuff, do you think we need some sort of consolidation of these standards or at least some more unification, we just saw ECOMP and Open-O merge so there seems to be some consolidation. What will we see going forward? What's going to help you as the CTO? >> There's no doubt if there's consolidation, that would be easier to track and easier place to develop, but in reality, Scott, it's 50 shades of YANG. (laughter) >> And the reason why I say that is each and every standards body has done their own specific function, again whether it's Metro Ethernet or its broadband access or its mobility, each one of those standards bodies is redefining themselves to be SDN capable. There's no doubt. If there's a one stop shop, it would be the most optimal way to get something done the fastest, but that's not the way the world works. So actually I think we are going to see a continuous increase of more folks working on this, more foundations being build, etc., etc. Although, what we have witnessed over the last couple days in the last year, is that the communities, the open-source communities in particular, are coming together and trying to integrate the pieces together versus just islands of cool technology that there's a few geeks interested in, no. Thankfully the operators and some enterprises have come in and said I need this stuff to work and I need this stuff to work together and that discipline is actually fundamentally new and different than the way either standards bodies worked or open-source worked in the past. So I'd love to say that there'd be even more consolidation. There's frankly a bit of fatigue over, not saying it's wack-a-mole but you have to chase, you have to really figure out and track where all this stuff is going on in the industry to really keep abreast and understand how wide and how deep it goes. >> It's interesting this trend lately where people are just donating ... The project is just being absorbed into Linux Foundation. So now there's at least kind of a consistency across all these various projects, in terms of the way things are managed, the shows, the communication, and them helping standardize a process to help those projects be more successful in their distribution and adoption in the company. >> Linux Foundation has done the industry a huge service. They understand governance. They've gone through a zillion different experiences of how to build communities. What works well when there's competing factions that need to come together and work, on board marketing team, on board legal team, able to build foundations as necessary, or what's been experimented with over the last couple of years is, if you remember when we started to number these, you need to have a 503C, you need to have a foundation, there was frankly a high cost associated with these. Now, open-source is being contributed there's no foundation, and there's no cost. And so there's a whole continuum of things that the industry, the networking industry I should say, is learning about how to build communities and although this sounds cliche, you may launch a product, but you don't launch a community, you actually have to build it. And it's not all one company that's doing the donating or doing the working and that will produce, that'll create the longevity of that particular project. And that is what the Linux Foundation knows how to do well or at least catalyzed people to come together to do that well. >> Now you mentioned one of the big questions that always comes up with open-source is well how do we make money, right? Cause it's all free. It's like, you know ... >> Are we on Jerry Maguire? What's going on? (laughter) >> Jeff: Free like a puppy. (laughing) >> Still my favorite. >> Free like a puppy, yeah, you guys still got to change the newspaper. So you were on a panel today there was a big discussion about the commercialization and how does, I mean obviously Cisco has to stare at this big puppy in the room if you will, you know. What's going to happen to our licensing model with all this open-source, what came out of that discussion, what came out of the panel about how do you make money in this open-source world? >> So a couple of things, one thing that was discussed was not only how to make money, is which comes first, cost reduction, total cost of ownership, or new service revenue. And really the outcome there, and AT&T, Comcast, and Lightspeed Ventures was also in the panel with me. Needless to say it's a combination of both. If you're coming in with a project and the project is please spend this money so you can save this money, we know how to do that math. We can add up the rows and columns and can understand whether or not money will be saved over time. But the new service revenue really certainly in an enterprise space, is really what's being discussed. In particular, can I get these new services, I need these new security functions, I want to manage all my branches from the cloud or whatever the case might be. So new service revenue is depending on which use case, which technology, which layer. Both of those two balance out and they both are required in the algorithm. Now, can people make money off of it? And the answer is, needless to say, Lightspeed Ventures colleague said, "Hey man, if there's a community "and there's a technology, "you can list off a zillion cases of where that community "is turned into a true company that can provide value-add "and additional IP and move forward." Now, let's move this from just startups to big companies like Cisco or AT&T and Comcast and not only do we all use open-source in our projects, all those companies are contributing to open-source. And in Cisco's case, we're contributing to open-source for a couple of key reasons, one is there are gaps in the industry, which were limiting the industry. So let me give an example. We open-sourced a virtual switch router, which you might think, okay it's Cisco they're going to do something in networking, but the reason why we open-sourced it, and it's a piece that we actually use in our products, was there was not a virtual switch or router that had the scale, performance, or features that enabled the industry to utilize all the capabilities of the hardware underneath, whether it's computer or networking or security. And so the industry literally would have stalled with a limited feature set versus being able to utilize decades of networking knowledge and experience in things that are key and necessary, encapsulations, features, filters, quality of service etc., etc. There's a zillion of these pieces. And so there's a couple different ways, how can somebody make money off of this really is the fundamental question. We contribute into open-source communities and use that open-source to build products as well. And we can do this across video, we can do this in networking, and we do this in NFV, we do this in orchestration in these pieces and we also catalyze an ecosystem around these projects and then potentially around our portfolio as well. And so we continuously expand our ecosystem into startups that are using this technology, advancing the technology, enabling the industry to move faster, and trying to fundamentally create those business outcomes that our customers want. >> I just love that you just innately understand the value of an active community and that really comes through, so but unfortunately the janitors have rolled in, the vacuums are going, the garbage cans are rolling, so before they unplug all of our gear, I want to give you the last word Dave. What are some of your top priorities for 2017? >> So top priorities for 2017 really comes down to working towards filling the gaps I mentioned, identity and policy, but additionally number one, make sure that the automation orchestration policy around networking in a containerized stack is created. So we live through a long era of hypervisors and what it was like to work with open stack and what it was like in open-source and have to invent all this technology. We learned a ton. But it doesn't exist in a containerized world. So for 2017, fill the big gaps in the industry and work towards orchestrating and automating networking, compute, storage, and security in a containerized world. >> Pretty simple. I think that's the answer. I was going to say 42 is usually the answer, but I think that was it Dave. (laughter) >> I love 42. (laughing) >> Thanks Dave, so he's Dave Ward, Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching TheCUBE from Open Networking Summit 2017. We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music) >> You're also an entrepreneur, right? You know the business, you've been in the business.

>> Announcer: Live, from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube. Covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation. >> Welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We are in Santa Clara, California at the Open Networking Summit 2017. I'm joined this whole show by my co-host, Scott Raynovich. Scott, great to see you. We're excited in this segment to get one of the keynote presenters to come down and spend some time with us on The Cube. So, Sandra Rivera, she's the Corporate VP and GM of Network Platform Groups at Intel. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Jeff: And your keynote is all about >> 5G. >> Jeff: 5G is now. >> 5G is happening now. >> That is a powerful, declarative statement. >> Indeed, but it's true. >> Jeff: It's true. >> Yes. If you look at 5G being the true convergence of computing and communications, then you see that so much of the capabilities that we have had in the cloud and in the core of the network, really need to scale out to both the Edge and the Access network, to be ever closer to the end user or the end point. It could be a smart phone, it could be a laptop, it could be a tablet, or it could be some of the new devices that we see, drones and robots and connected cars. So this idea that we have to bring programmable, scalable, flexible computing closer to those end points is really the foundation upon which 5G is going to be built. All of that is really what we're driving with software defined networking and network functions virtualization. So 5G is indeed happening now. >> This is really a continuation of the theme from Mobile World Congress just a few weeks ago. Time flies. >> Is it a few weeks? I think it's a couple months. >> I don't know, I can't keep track anymore. >> 5G at Mobile Congress was all the rage. We were talking a lot about what 5G will enable. Connected cars and smart cities and smart factories and smart homes, as well as those immersive experiences that you'll have in your home, cloud gaming and 3D types of experiences and virtual reality or, actually what we're calling merged reality, the ability to put physical objects in the virtual world or virtual objects in your physical world. All of that requires way more bandwidth, very low latency, and much better responsiveness in that end point near the device or the user, which is what all the innovations in 5G from a radio perspective will enable, but of course the rest of the infrastructure has to support it as well. >> There was quite a bit of discussion at Mobile World Congress about 5G, and I think there was a lot of questions also being raised. Some of the larger carriers, such as Deutsche Telekom, I think maybe Orange, they were questioning the size of the investment that's necessary, and I think for some people it threw the timeline into question a little bit, as we know. As we were discussing prior to the show, the standard, we're looking at 2019, 2020 maybe for deployment? >> Sandra: Right. >> What's Intel's view on the deployment timeline? Does that matter to you? >> It matters a lot because we are investing now, and we're investing with a broad ecosystem of partners. If you look at it just from a pure radio perspective, yes indeed, the 3GPP spec for 5G doesn't really get nailed down until the end of '18. You'll start to see true compliant 5G devices introduced in 2019, and rampant scale in 2020. But the network infrastructure, that idea that you need this programmable, agile, composable infrastructure, really starts now, because you're not going to be able to have a light switch of, "Well, this is the network that I need to support all those devices and all those use cases." That composability of the network is anchored on having a programmable capability as opposed to a fixed function set of boxes or appliances, which is really how networks have been architected and built and deployed up until now. It embraces server volume economics, virtualization technologies and that pooling benefit that you get from sharing an underlying resource, as well as cloud architectures and cloud business models. The idea that you can pay as you go. You hear a lot about network slicing and that really is about composing the network for not too few or not too many resources that you need for that particular end use case. So all that is happening now. We are participating with Verizon in the 5G tech forum. We're working with KT and SKT as they get ready for the Winter Olympics. We're working with operators and telecom equipment manufacturers all over the world to prove out connected car and smart cities and smart factories types of use cases. I think that there's always some healthy skepticism about, are we over-investing or are we investing too early? But if you look at the amount of work that we have to get done in what is a relatively short window of time, we feel like we actually need to speed up. >> And 2019 is right around the corner, Scott. I can't believe we're already a third of the way through 2017. >> I have it marked on my calendar already. It's right here. 5G arrives. But tell us, the play for Intel is to be in the NFV Infrastructure for 5G, is that your play? >> Actually, Intel's strategy for 5G is end to end. Clearly we have modem technology that will go into client devices, yes smartphones, yes tablets, yes laptops, but also drones and robots and cars and any number of devices that haven't even yet been invented. We are in all of the infrastructure, from the access layer in terms of the base stations and a lot of the edge computing that is happening there, we're in the edge of the network which could be close to the enterprise, or close to the consumer, and we're in the core of the network which is where a lot of the switching and routing functions, the authentication functions, the security functions are done. Then, of course, we power most of the world's cloud infrastructure. So back into the cloud and the data center, that's Intel. It really is end to end. We have this broad view and this scalable architecture where it's a consistent silken architecture, a common tool chain, and a very broad access to ecosystem and developers to take you through that end to end portfolio of services and capabilities that you require. >> And at the end of the day, it's just eating up a lot of compute, right? >> Lots of compute. If it's a compute problem, Intel feels pretty comfortable that we have leadership there. Indeed. But we have some new announcements here. >> Okay, because you're here. Besides the keynote, you have announcements, too. >> We have some announcements around our data playing development kit, or DPDK. Intel invented DPDK in 2010. That was a set of libraries and optimized drivers for running high performance packet processing on general purpose CPUs. And of course, if you're in the network business it's all about moving the packets, so you need high performance packet processing. But the ability to have these optimized libraries for queue and buffer management, for flow classification, for quality of service, and run it on your standard server CPU, is a very powerful capability because you no longer need purpose built silken to run those functions. We invented DPDK, we contributed it into open source, it ran in an open source project called DPDK.org, but we announced on Monday of this week that that's moving to the Linux Foundation. We're broadening the community of developers, we are multi-architecture, we are very broad in terms of the developers that are contributing to DPDK and we think that this is a fundamental building block of networks that will be, again, built and deployed over time. >> So you'd already invented it, but you handed it over to Linux Foundation. >> We invented it and we contributed it to open source, actually some years ago, into a project called DPDK.org but the announcement was that it was now moving into a Linux Foundation hosted project, because that gives us a broader umbrella by which we can attract more developers and have greater contributions from a broad ecosystem. >> Right. And we saw AT&T just gave a bunch of stuff to the Linux Foundation. >> Sandra: That's right. >> Scott: Everybody's giving it to the Linux Foundation. >> That's right, it's a good place to be. I was curious. Tell me your take, from the Intel perspective on this show specifically, but also more just open source in general and the role that Linux Foundation plays in taking a project that was obviously of significant value, but enabling it to go places maybe that it wouldn't if it wasn't part of the Foundation. >> Indeed, yeah. So Intel is a big believer in open source, open standards, and a big enabler and investor in broad ecosystems. We're consistently the number one or the number two contributor to many of the projects that we participate in, including Linux, the actual Linux kernel. From networking projects perspective, we really do like the leadership that the Linux Foundation is demonstrating in coalescing the industry around some of the big problems and challenges, as well as opportunities that we face together. >> Yes, we're live. >> We're live, it's that stage. So, we do believe that having just a broader landing zone, if you will, for the work that we're contributing, and having that parallelization that comes from a community of developers tackling the same problems together as opposed to one at a time, or as opposed to doing the same thing in various places, is very, very powerful. So we're very happy to be part of many of these networking projects and, of course, we're a big supporter and partner to the Linux Foundation for many years. >> Okay. I guess we're a third of the way, or a quarter of the way through 2017, on our way to 2019, the launch of 5G. Just curious, Sandra, as you look at what you're working on in 2017, obviously the 5G Initiative and all the developments around that are very exciting, we really are excited about it for the IoT side. We don't really spend too much time on the handset side, per se, but obviously for IoT it's very exciting. But what are some of the other priorities you have for 2017 that you're working on if we catch up a year from now that you can report back on? >> We definitely are driving toward the commercialization of NFV and SDN. We have been through a period of time, of technical feasibility, a lot of early lab trials followed by field trials. But we are absolutely seeing now this much broader scale of commercial deployments and we're going to see that throughout 2017 and 2018. We think that, clearly 5G acts as an accelerant to a lot of that work. A lot of the foundational work that needs to be done in terms of network transformation and network virtualization, enables 5G, and then 5G creates a compelling event for us to go faster. So we're getting ready for some of the 2018 Olympics, types of demonstrations of early technologies on the path to 5G in 2019 and 2020. Network transformation, network virtualization is a fundamental piece of that. The other area that we're investing quite a bit in is data analytics. AI, machine learning, deep learning. One of the things that we know is once we have programmable computing in all parts of the network, in the entire spectrum, from the client, to the access, to the edge, the core, and the cloud, that you can actually collect and harness that data and turn it into business value, either upstream to the content providers or downstream to the consumers of the information or the data. We'll see much more of that really starting to come to fruition this year, not just in the big hyperscale cloud guys but a lot of ways that the enterprises can use data and turn that into business value. So we're pretty excited about everything that's happening on that front, as well. >> You're going to be a busy lady. >> Sandra: We're busy. >> All right. Well, Sandra, thanks for stopping by. I know for Mobile World Congress we could only get you on the phone so it was great to get to meet you in person. >> Sandra: I know, it's more fun this way. >> Absolutely, all right. She's Sandra Rivera, he's Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching The Cube from Open Networking Summit 2017. We'll be back after this short break. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube. Covering open networking summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux foundation. >> Welcome back. We are live in Santa Clara at the open networking summit 2017. Been coming here for a couple years, it's a lot of open source going on in storage, for a long time, a lot of open source going on in compute for a long time, and you know, networking was kind of the last one, but we had Martin Casado on on earlier today. He says it's 10 years since he started Nicira. And now, it's a billion dollar revenue run raid inside vmware, so I think the software defined networking is pretty real. We're excited for this next segment, Scott Raynovich, been cohosting all day, good to see you again, Scott. But we're kind of shifting, we're going to add to open networking, we're going to add to open, not compute, but OpenStack, I get them all mixed up, we were just-- >> It's all infrastructure, it's all in the family. >> All right, so our next guest here, representing the OpenStack foundation, is Ildiko Vancsa, get that right? She is the ecosystem technical lead for OpenStack, welcome. And Lisa-Marie Namphy, she's now officially the OpenStack ambassador, which if you follow her on Twitter, you would have known that a long time ago. >> For the U.S. There's several others globally, but for the U.S., yeah. >> So first off, welcome. >> Thank you. >> And what is the OpenStack team doing here at open networking summit? >> So OpenStack itself is a multipurpose generated cloud platform, so we are not just looking into enterprise, IT use cases, but also trying to address the telecom and NFV space. And this is the conference where we are finding many of our ecosystem member companies represented, and we are also learning what's new in the networking space, what are the challenges of tomorrow and how we can start to address them today. >> Right, 'cause the telco is a very active space for OpenStack as well, correct, there's been a good market segment for you. >> Yes, it is an emerging area. I would say we have more and more telecommunications company around and they are also more and more involved in open source. Because I think it's kind of clear that they are also using open source for a while now, but using open source and participating in open source, those are two different things. So this kind of mindset change and transition towards participating In these communities and going out to the public field and do software development there and collaborate with each other and the enterprise IT segment as well, this is what is happening today and it is really great to see it. >> Host: Great, great. >> And you've seen more and more telco's participating in the OpenStack summits, there was an NFV day, I think, even going all the way back to the Atlanta summit. And certainly, in Barcelona, Ildiko was actually doing one of the main stage key notes, which was very focused on telco. And some of the main sponsors of this upcoming summit are telco's. So there's definitely a nice energy between telco and OpenStack. >> Now, why do you think the telco is just the one that's kind of getting ahead of the curve in terms of the adoption? >> Scalable low class clouds. (all laugh) >> Right, and we had John Donovan from AT&T said today that they're either rapidly approaching or going to hit, very soon, more than 50% of software defined networking within the AT&T network. So if there's any questions as to whether it's real or still in POC's, I think that pretty much says it's in production and running. >> I'm doing a lot more of that, so I also run the OpenStack user group for the San Francisco bay area and have been for the last three years, and if we're not talking about Kupernetes, or Docker and OpenStack, we're talking about networking. And tonight, actually, we're going to, the open contrail team is talking about some of the stuff they're doing with open contrail and containers and sort of just to piggyback off of this conference. And next week, as well, we're talking about the network functionality in Kupernetes at OpenStack, if you want to run in down to the OpenStack cloud. So it's a huge focus and the user group can't get enough of it. >> and your guys' show is coming up very, very soon. >> The OpenStack summit? >> Yes. >> Oh, absolutely, May 8th through 11th in Boston, Massachusetts. >> Host: Like right around the corner. >> Yeah. >> The incredible moving show, right? It keeps going and going and going. >> Yeah, yeah, there's going to be 6,000 plus people there. There was just some recent press releases about some of the keynotes that are happening there. There's a huge focus on, you know, I keep calling this the year of the user, the year of OpenStack adoption. And we're really, throughout the meetups, we're really doing a lot to try to showcase those use cases. So Google will be one that's onstage talking about some really cool stuff they're doing with OpenStack, some machine learning, just really intelligent stuff they're working on, and that's going to be a great keynote that we're looking forward to. Harvard will be up on there, you know, not just big name foundation members, but a lot of use cases that you'll see presented. >> So why do you think this is the year, what's kind of the breakthrough that it is the year of the user, would you say? >> Well, I think that just the reliability of OpenStack. I think enterprises are getting more comfortable. There are very large clouds running on OpenStack, more in Asia and in Europe and Ildiko can probably talk about it, particularly some of the telco related ones. But you know, the adoption is there and you see more stability around there, more integration with other, I don't know what to call it, emerging technologies like containers, like AI, like IOT. So there's a big push there, but I think enterprises have just, they have adopted it. And there's more expertise out there. We've focused a lot on the administrators. There's the COA, the certified administrator of, you know, OpenStack administrator exam you can take. So the operators have come a long way and they're really helping the customers out there get OpenStack clouds up and running. So I just think, you know, it's seven years now, into it, right, so we got to turn the corner. >> So there have been some growing pains with OpenStack, so what can you tell us about the metrics today versus, say, three or four years ago in terms of total installations, maybe breakdown of telecom versus enterprise, what kind of metrics do you have you there? >> I'll let you take that one. >> We are running, continuously running a user survey and we are seeing growing numbers in the telecom area. I'm not prepared with the numbers from the top of my head, but we are definitely seeing more and more adoption in the telecom space like how you mentioned AT&T, they are one of the largest telecom operators onboard in the community, and they are also very active, showing a pretty great example of how to adopt the software and how to participate in the community to make the software more and more NFV ready and ready for the telecom use cases. We also have, as Lisa-Marie just mentioned, the China area and Asia are coming up as well, like we have China Mobile and China Telecom onboard as well. Or Huawei, so we have telecom operators and telecom vendors as well, around the community. And we are also collaborating with other communities, so like who you see around OPNFV, OpenDaylight, and so forth. We are collaborating with them to see how we can integrate OpenStack into a larger environment as part of the full NFV stack. If you look into the ETSI NFV architectural framework, OpenStack is on the infrastructure layer. The NFV infrastructure and virtual infrastructure manager components are covered with OpenStack services mostly. So you also need to look into, then, how you can run on top of the hardware that the telecom industry is expecting in a data center and how to onboard the virtual network functions on top of that, how to put D management and orchestration components on top of OpenStack, and how the integration works out. So we are collaborating with these communities and what is really exciting about the Upcoming summit is that we are transforming the event a little bit. So this time, it will not be purely OpenStack focused, but it will be more like an open infrastructure, even. We are running open source days, so we will have representation from the communities I mentioned and we will also have Kubernetes onboard, for example, to show how we are collaborating with the representatives of the container technologies. We will also have Cloud Foundry and a few more communities around, so it will be a pretty interesting event and we are just trying to show the big picture that how OpenStack and all these other components of this large ecosystem are operating together. And that is going to be a super cool part of the summit, so the summit is May 8th through 11th and on May 9th, the CNCF, the Linux foundation, actually, behind this, the CNCF day, they're calling it Kupernetes day. And the whole day will be dedicated, there will be a whole track dedicated to Kupernetes, basically. And so they did another call for papers and it's like a little mini conference inside the conference. So that's kind of what I was saying about the adoption of other technologies. I'm sure the OpenStack foundation is putting those numbers together that you asked about and probably Jonathan or Bryce will stand onstage on the first day and talk about them. But what I think is more interesting and what I would encourage people to go, there's a Superuser magazine. Superuser does a great job telling the stories of what's happening out there, and some of these use cases, and who's adopting this technology and what they're doing with it. And those stories are more interesting than just, you know, the numbers. Because you can do anything with numbers and statistics, but these actual user stories are really cool so I encourage readers to go out to Superuser magazine and check that out. >> It's like, Lego uses it. >> There you go. >> I had to check real fast. >> Lot of information on there. They do a good job of that. >> Lego alligators. >> So you talked about this day with the Linux foundation, is there increasing amounts of cooperation between OpenStack and Linux foundation? Given all the projects that seem to be blossoming. >> Yeah, I don't even know that it needed to increase, there's always been nice energy between the two. There is, you know, Eileen Evans, who we know very well, was on the board of both, the first woman on both boards. She was my colleague for many years at Hewlett-Packard. She's still on the Linux foundation board and there's been a lot of synergy between those foundations. They've always worked closely together, especially things like the Cloud Foundry foundation that came out of the Linux foundation has always worked very closely with OpenStack, the OpenStack foundation, and the board members, and it's all one big happy family. We're all open source, yeah. >> And you talked about the enterprises being, you know, they've been using open source for a long time, Linux has been around forever. They're really more adopting kind of an open source ethos in terms of their own contributions back and participating back in. So you see just increased adoption, really, of using the open source vehicle as a way to do better innovation, better product development, and to get involved, get back to their engineers to get involved in something beyond just their day job. >> It is definitely a tendency that is happening, so it's not just AT&T, like, I can mention, for example, NTT DoCoMo, who now has engineers working on OpenStack code. They are a large operator in Japan. And it is really not something, I think, that a few years back, they would've imagined that they will just participate in an open source community. I've been involved with OPNFV for, I think, two years now, or two and a half. I'm an OPNFV ambassador as well, I'm trying to focus on the cross-community collaboration. And OPNFV is an environment where you can find many telecom operators and vendors. And it was a really interesting journey to see them, how they get to know open source more and more and how they learned how this is working and how working in public is like and what the benefits are. And I remember when a few people from, for example, DoCoMo came to OPNFV and they were, like, a little bit more shy, just exploring what's happening. And then like a half year later when they started to do OpenStack contributions, they had code batches merged into OpenStack, they added new functionalities, they kind of became advocates of open source. And they were like telling everywhere that open source is the way to go and this is what everyone should be doing and why it is so great to collaborate with other operators out in the public so you can address the common pain points together, rather than everyone is working on it behind closed doors and trying to invent the same wheel at the same time, separately. >> Right. >> So that was a really, really Interesting journey. And I think more and more companies are following this example. And not just coming and giving feedback, but also more and more participating and doing coding documentation work in the community. >> And I think if I can understand, what I think, also, the question you might have been asking, there wasn't a ton of python developers in the beginning and everybody's like how do we get these OpenStack developers in the company, you know, it was this huge shortage. And Linux was the little hanging fruit, it's like well, why do we just hire some Linux developers and then teach them python, and that's how a lot of OpenStack knowledge came into companies. So that was the trend. And I think enough companies, enough enterprises do see the value of something like OpenStack or Linux or Kupernetes or whatever the project has, Docker, to actually dedicate enough full time employees to be doing just that for as long as it makes sense and then maybe it's another technology. But we saw that for years, right, with OpenStack, huge companies. And there still are. Not always the same companies, depending on what a company needs and where they are, they absolutely find value in contributing back to this community. >> Okay, and you said you got a meetup tonight? >> I do, yeah. >> Give a plug for the meetup. >> Juniper, it's open contrail talking about open contrailing and containers. And it's at Juniper here in Sunnyville, so if you go to meetup.com/openstack, that's our user group. We're the first ones, we got that one. So meetup.com/openstack is the Silicon Valley, San Francisco bay area user group. And then next week, we're talking about networking and Kupernetes. >> All right, it's always good to be above the fold, that's for sure. All right, Ildiko, Lisa-Marie, great to see you again and thanks for stopping by, and we'll see you in Boston, if not before. >> Absolutely, we'll both be quite busy, we have four, both four presentations each, it's going to be a nutty week. So I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in Boston, always a pleasure, thanks for inviting us. >> Absolutely, all right, thanks for stopping by. With Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching The Cube from open networking summit 2017. We'll be back after this short break, thanks for watching.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: Live, from Santa Clara, California, it's theCube. Covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation. >> Woman: Sure. Um, so, yeah, as you were saying, OpenDaylight really kind of kicked things off from a open source networking standpoint. I mean, there were certainly other open source controllers earlier, in sort of the market life cycle, but they kind of never really made their way out of the universities. OpenDaylight was the first that really had a lot of commercial participation and uptake, kind of in the real world, so to speak. Um, so with that, I think there was a lot of learning that happened, both on the vendor's side, with regard to open source, as well as on the user side. Um, and as the OpenDaylight platform matured and started coming to fruition, we started seeing a lot of other projects sort of both below at the platform layer as well as further up the stack. So at this point, and we've been talking about this quite a bit here at ONS, um, we've been talking a lot about the whole open networking stack that has sort of come to fruition now. You know, really low level stuff, DPDK was just announced today. Fido, which is sort of big data for networking. Then all the way up the stack to ONAP, which was just announced last month. ONAP is a bringing together of the ECOMP Project that was started by AT&T and then they brought it to The Linux Foundation and Open-O, which actually sort of germinated within The Linux Foundation with a lot of input from, um, a number of small vendors, as well as major carriers, particularly in Asia. So, um, bringing those things together at the orchestration layer, and so now we've got this sort of whole stack. Some of it, a lot of it is Linux Foundation projects, some of it is other projects with other open source foundations. All of which we work with very collaboratively across all those different projects. >> Man: Right, right. >> But at this point, we're really kind of looking at how do we enable people to consume this a little bit more easily from the user side? And then also from the developer side. There are a lot of developers who are involved in multiple different projects. Which of course means that they're spread very thin across all those projects. And we're looking at how do we make it a more feasible and scalable activity for them? >> Right. >> So for example, you know, OpenDaylight is upstream of a lot of other projects. There are a lot of other projects that have a lot of dependencies on OpenDaylight. So how do we streamline the release train in such a way that, you know, everybody gets what they need at the time that they need it, so they can do their releases on a timely basis and so forth and so on. And that just, you know, that makes things a lot easier from a developer standpoint. That also sort of naturally increases the, improves the integration points between those projects which is, of course, better for users. >> Man: Right. >> Um, so those are a lot of the things that we have in motion sort of across the Linux Foundation, um, and I think that the other thing that we've really seen over the last year come to fruition is a lot of the early adopters of OpenDaylight in particular have now spent enough time working with the open source community, either through their vendors or increasingly directly themselves, that they kind of get this open source thing, and they understand kind of what the processes are and why we do things they way they do. >> Right. >> And so they're willing to take a much more active role. AT&T is a prime example of that. They were working on ECOMP themselves internally, and they, very quickly, came to the realization that in order to scale it as quickly as they needed to, I mean, they were putting tens of thousands of their developers through specialized boot camps, right? >> Man: Right, right. >> The networking people to become networking developers. But at the same point, you just can't push people through the system that fast enough, nor can you hire enough people that fast enough. And so that's why this has decided to bring it to the open source community. >> Man: It seems like there's kind of an acceleration of carving out some piece of what was proprietary and putting it out to continue the development in an open source world. >> Any "why", you kind of answered the question just now in terms of there's not enough people. But more interestingly, you talked about some open source stuff just never gets going. What are some of the real secrets that make an open source project run? >> Yeah. >> Versus those that don't, or you know, die on the vine. >> Yeah. Um, there are a lot of different components, of course, like with anything. Some of it is technical, right? Do you have the right architecture? Is it one that can scale? Is it extensible? Are the right kinds of people involved in the project? Is the project being informed by the right kinds of people? So if you go and build something that nobody needs, either because you don't have the right people involved, or because you're not open to that feedback, it's going to die on the vine. So, you know, a successful project really has to have a strong community around it. And it's a-- >> Jeff: Chicken and egg. >> Chicken and egg thing, right? How do you get a strong community? Well, you have the right processes in place, but you also make sure that you have the right people involved so that they can build the right kind of thing. And that they have the skills to do it effectively. >> Right. And then the other interesting trend we're seeing is, The Linux Foundation is becoming kind of the hub where you put these things, um, to grow, and as you said, really to cross-pollinate with the other open source projects that have all these interdependencies. >> And that seems to be an accelerating trend as well, as least from the outside looking in. >> Lisa: Yeah, no, it absolutely is. And I think we learned a lot with, with OpenDaylight and also with OpenStack. You know, when OpenStack started, and OpenStack of course is even older than OpenDaylight, but when OpenStack started, I think there was all kinds of euphoria in the industry because open source was relatively new to infrastructure, and infrastructure people, it was like, "Oh, I can build everything "that I ever wanted to build now!" Um, and so there was this sort of irrational exuberance about feature proliferation. In some ways, kind of at the expense of platform stability initially. And at a certain point, the users, again, started getting involved and said, "That's great. We need the thing to actually work. "At scale, in real world environments. "Please focus on that." And you know, that's the real beauty and strength of open source, is when you have users who care, and see the possibility of a project, they can be actively involved and actively influence where the focus of the project is going to be. And that's how you get to something that's going to be useful to people quickly. >> Thank you. >> Well, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about how you-- on these, I'm always kind of mystified as an analyst or a journalist or whatever, when you see these things. The press release comes out, "ONAP is the new thing", right? There's a new thing every week. How do you ensure the success? How do you get the momentum behind it? I imagine there's a lot of stuff that's been happening behind the scenes for ONAP. >> Lisa: Yep. We try not to keep it too behind the scenes. It has always been part of open source culture and what's proven to be a best practice is openness and transparency of not just the code itself but the processes around it. >> Scott: Mhm. >> Um, if people feel like they understand what's going on, that things aren't being hidden from them, that they can have a voice. >> Scott: Right. >> They're much more actively willing to participate. So that's really kind of the key to building any kind of community. >> And how do you work with a big carrier, like, I mean, the fascinating part about this for me is for our viewers who don't know what ONAP and ONOS and ODL are, it's basically all this carrier software that's becoming open source and they're just putting it out there, saying, "It's no longer our family jewels. "Everybody can use it." I mean, that's a big leap for an AT&T, you know? Tell us how you work with AT&T or Verizon or some of these big, gigantic organizations. Like, they just hand you a thumb drive? (laughter) How do you get the intellectual property? How's that process start? >> In the case of AT&T, they reached out to The Linux Foundation and said, "We want and need to do this. "Help us do it. We don't know how this works. "Help us, teach us." But it's very much a, you know, a big part of the role of The Linux Foundation in all of this project proliferation and so forth is teaching people how to do open source effectively. Because, again, it's not just about throwing coders at a problem, 'cause you can do that inside your own organization as well. It's understanding how to do that in a collaborative manner, how to carve off what parts to open source, 'cause AT&T's ECOMP platform, not all of it has been open source. Some portion of it, the stuff that's really important and proprietary and is considered the crown jewels, that has stayed internal, but they've shared a reasonable, fairly large percentage of the base platform with the open source community. And learning to draw that line is an art. And figuring out what is commodity and really could and should be shared with the rest of the world so we're not all reinventing the same wheel. >> Scott: Right. >> But rather than having ten developers here doing that and ten developers here and duh duh duh dah, we can put 30 developers, all working together, to get the same thing more quickly. That shifted mindset can take a little bit of time, a bit of education, and that's kind of part of what The Linux Foundation brings to that process of onboarding new open source projects. >> Jeff: Right. And then on the other end, I always think of Randy Bias. He's one of our favorite guests, Especially with OpenStack, and he knows a couple OpenStack Silicon Valleys ago, where he was somewhat critical on the other end, saying we also have to kind of reign things in, and you have all this risks of stuff going all over the place, and how do you kind of have some organization at the top end because of successful growth can drive a bunch of different agendas and things can get forked. It's not a simple thing to manage. >> No, and we've tried different models and different approaches within different projects and we've learned a lot from that. OpenDaylight was very much a, you know, you guys figure it out, hands-off kind of model. Other open source projects have been very top-down, from their governant structure to everything else. Others, like Open-O are kind of in-between where they did specifically set up an architecture committee that was composed of the leading members of the project because, again, Open-O in particular is touching the business layer of these carriers. So they really need that architecture to be meeting their specifications. >> Right, right. >> Sort of a lower layer, so it's a little bit less critical. There are lots of different models and sort of a gradation of top-down versus bottom-up and, you know, let a thousand flowers bloom. (chuckling) There are pluses and minuses to all of them. I think that we've been sort of learning as we go through all of these different projects what works. And different--sometimes it's worth shifting the model and starting out one way and shifting as you go along as the project matures, too. >> Jeff: But the net-net, which I think, you said at the beginning, is that big companies are now really learning how to operate effectively in this world, in this open source paradigm. It's matured way, way, way beyond what, we used to always joke, years ago, is a free puppy, you know? (laughing) >> You know, I mean, I think Tokus understand now that it is, yes, it's a free puppy. You still have to do lots of work. I think that understanding is sort of starting to trickle into the enterprise. I still have, every time I do a briefing, people will ask me to tell them about my product, and I say, "I don't have a product. I can't sell you anything." I help bring together a bunch of building blocks that you and your vendors can put together. But I don't have a product. And that, you know, that's a major mind shift for, especially, enterprise IT, where they're used to buying things off the shelf. >> Right. >> So larger enterprises, um, are starting again. They tend to take their cues from the carriers as things get proven out in the carrier world. And so we're starting to see that the same level of understanding and also, drivers in large, especially very distributed types of organizations, where they have 50, a hundred, hundreds of different sites around the world that they need to have a centralized few of in some fashion. And the only way they can get there is with SDN and they have a very strong preference, very clear preference for open source. >> Scott: How big is The Linux Foundation now? >> Lisa: By what metric? >> Uh, people, I guess. >> Lisa: Oh, people. Um... We're a few hundred, no more. But it's not just--we're not the ones doing all the work, right? We organize things. We help things happen. We help teach people. We provide the infrastructure. >> It seems to be growing very fast, like new projects are being added and merged. >> Lisa: But again, it's vendors and it's users. >> Very grassroots. >> Yeah. We help provide the ground, the legal framework, and the technical test facilities and things like that, and kind of the organizational guide rails. But we're here to help, we're not the ones doing the work. >> Right, right. Alright, Lisa, so I'll give you the last word before we sign off here. As you look forward to 2017, what are some of your top priorities for this next year? >> Lisa: Yeah, so, several things. First order is really enabling our users to really be successful with the projects that they already have in hand. In many cases, they're well through the phase of proof of concept and all the way onto production, and we just want to make sure that they're continuing to get everything they want out of the project and supporting them and supporting their vendors. And really building out the commercial ecosystem around it, so that they have a strong base of support. So that's one thing. Certainly on the OpenDaylight side, with some of the newer projects, it's really about figuring out what are the best practices that we can implement for this project, for this project, and for this project in order to make sure that they're successful. And a lot of that, again, is that whole harmonization effort that we have going on. >> Right, right. Alright, Lisa Caywood. She knows all about bringing open source to the enterprise, and thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> Absolutely. I'm Jeff Frick, he's Scott Raynovich. You're watching theCube from Open Networking Summit 2017 in Santa Clara, California. We'll be back after the short break. Thanks for watching. (electronic music)

(lively synth music) >> Announcer: Live, from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube, covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We are at Open Networking Summit, joined here in this segment by Scott Raynovich, my guest host for the next couple days, great to see you again Scott. >> Good to see you. >> And real excited to have a long-time Cube alumni, a many-time Cube alumni always up to some interesting and innovative thing. (Scott laughs) Sam Greenblat, he's now amongst other things the CTO of Nano Global, nano like very very small. Sam, great to see ya. >> Great to see you too Jim. >> So you said before we went offline, you thought you would retire, but there's just too many exciting things going on, and it drug you back into this crazy tech world. >> Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in. (all laugh) >> All right, so what is Nano Global, for people that aren't familiar with the company? >> Nano Global is a Amosil-Q, which is the compound, which is a nano compound that basically kills viruses, pathogens, funguses, and it does it by attaching itself at the nano level to these microbiol, microlife, and it implodes it, and technically that term is called lysis. >> (Jeff) That sounds very scary. >> It's very scary, because we try to sell it as a hand processing. >> You just told me it kills everything, I don't know if I want to put that on my hands, Sam. (all laugh) >> No it's good, that it kills some of the good bacteria, but it basically protects you for 24 hours. You don't have to reapply it, you can wash your hands. >> (Scott) It's like you become Superman or something. >> Absolutely, I literally use it to wash off the trays on the planes, and the armrests, while the guy next to me is sneezing like crazy, to try to kill any airborne pathogens. >> So what about the nanotechnology's got you traveling up to Santa Clara today for? >> Well, what I'm doing is, one of the things we're working on, besides that, is we're working on genomics, and I worked with some other companies on genomics besides Nano, and genomics has me totally fascinated. When I was at Dell, I went to ASU, and for the first time, I saw, pediatric genomics being processed quickly, and that was in a day. Today, a day is unheard of, it's terrible, you want to do it in less than an hour, and I was fascinated by how many people can be affected by the use of genomic medicine, and genomic pharmacology. And you see some of the ads on TV like Teva, that's genomic medicine, added tax, a genomic irregularity in your DNA, so it's amazing. And the other thing I'm very interested in is eradicating in my lifetime, which I don't know if it's going to happen, cancer, and how you do that is very simple. They found that chemotherapy is interesting, but not fascinating, it doesn't always work, but what they're finding is if they can find enough biometric information from genomes, from your proteomics, from your RNA, they can literally customize, it's called precision medicine, a specific medicine track for you, to actually fight the cancer successfully. >> I can't wait for the day, and hopefully it will be in your lifetime, when they look back at today's cancer treatments, and said "now what did you do again? (Sam laughs) You gave them as much poison as they could take, right up to the time they almost die, and hopefully the cancer dies first?" >> I'll take the - >> It's like bloodletting, it will not be that long from now that we look back at this time and say that was just archaic, which is good. >> It's called reactive medicine. It's funny, there's a story, that the guy who actually did the sequencing of the DNA, the original DNA strand tells, that when he was younger, he basically were able to see his chromosomes, and then he was able to get down to the DNA and to the proteins, and he could see that he had an irregularity that was known for basically cancer. And he went to the doctor, and he said "I think I have cancer of the pancreas." And the guy said "your blood tests don't show it." and by the way you don't get that blood test until you're over 40 years old, PS-1, the PS scan. And what happened was they actually found out that he had cancer of the pancreas, so... >> Yeah, it's predictive isn't it? So basically what you're doing is you're data mining the human and the human genome, and trying to do some sort of - >> We're not doing the 23andme, which tells you you have a propensity to be fat. >> Right, right, but walk us through what you're doing. You're obviously, you're here at an IT cloud conference so you're obviously using cloud technology to help accelerate the discovery of medicine, so walk us through how you're doing that. >> What happens is, when you get the swab, or the blood, and your DNA is then processed, it comes in and it gets cut to how many literal samples that they need. 23andme uses the 30x, that's 30 pieces. That's 80, by the way, gigabytes of data. If you were to take a 50x, is what you need for cancer, which is probably low, but it's, that takes you up to 150 gigabytes per person. Now think about the fact, you got to capture that, then you got to capture the RNA of the person, you got to capture his biometrics, and you got to capture his electronic medical record, and all the radiology that's done. And you got to bring it together, look at it, and determine what they should do. And the problem is the oncologic doctors today are scared to death of this, because they know how, if you have this, I'm going to take you in and basically do some radiation. I'm going to do chemotherapy on you and run the course. What's happening is, when you do all of this, you got to correlate all this data, it's probably the world's largest big data outside of Youtube. It's number two in number of bytes, and we haven't sequenced everybody on the planet. Everybody should get sequenced, it should be stored, and then when you get, that's called a germline you're healthy, then you take the cancer and you look at the germline and compare it, and then you're able to see what the difference is. Now open source has great technology to deal with this flood of data. LinkedIn, as you know open source, cacafa and one of the things that's great about that is it's a pull model, it's a producer, broker, subscriber model, and you can open up multiple channels, and by opening up multiple channels, since the subscribers are doing the pull instead of trying to send it all and overflow it, and we all know what it's like to overflow a pipe. It goes everywhere. But doing it through a cacafa model or a NiFi model, which is, by the way, donated by the NSA. We're not going to unmask who donated it but, (laughs) no, I'm only kidding, but the NSA donated it, and data flows now become absolutely critical, because as you get these segments of DNA, you got to send it all down, then what you got to do is do, and you're going to love this, a hidden Markovian chain, and put it all back together, so you can match the pattern, and then once you match the pattern, then you got to do quality control to see whether or not you screwed it up. And then, beyond that, you then have to do something called Smith-Waterman, which is a QC time, and then you can give it to somebody to figure out where the variant is. The whole key is all three of us share 99.9% of the same DNA. That one percent, tenth of a percent, is what is a variant. The variant is what causes all the diseases. We're all born with cancer. You have cancer in you, I have it, Jeff has it, and the only difference between a healthy person and a sick person is your killer cell went to sleep and doesn't attack the cancer. The only way to attack cancer is not chemotherapy, and I know every oncologic person who sees this is going to have a heart attack, it's basically let your immune system fight it. So what this tech does is it moves all that massive data into the variant. Once you get the variant, then you got to look at the RNA and see if there's variance there. Then you got to look at the radiology, the germline, and the biometric data, and once you get that, you can make a decision. I'll give you the guy who's my hero in this is the guy named Dr. Soon. He's the guy who came up with Abroxane. Abroxane is for pancreatic -- >> Jeff: Who is he with now? >> NantHealth. (both laugh) And why I, he discovered, he knew all about medicine, but he didn't know anything about technology. So then this becomes probably the best machine learning issue that you can have, because you have all this data, you're going to learn what it works on patients. And you're going to get all the records back, so what I'm going to talk about, because they wanted to talk about using SDM, using NFA, opening up hundreds of channels from source to, from provider to the subscriber, or consumer, as they call it, with the broker in the middle. And moving that data, then getting it over there, and doing the processing fast enough that it can be done while the patient still hasn't had any other problems. So I have great charts of what the genome looks like. I sent it to you. >> So it's clear these two fields are going to continue to merge, and the bioinformatics, and IT cloud. >> Sam: They're merging, as fast as possible. >> And we just plug our brain and our bodies into the health cloud, and it tells us what's up. >> Exactly, if Ginni was here, Ginni Rometty from IBM, she would tell you that quantum, she'd just announce it first commercially, an available quantum computer. Her first use for it is genomics, because genomics is a very repetitive process that is done in parallel. Remember you just cut this thing into 50 pieces, you put it back together, and now you're looking to see what's hidden, and it doesn't look like it's normal. If you looked at my genetics, one of the things you'll notice, that I will not consume a lot of caffeine. And how they know that is because there's a set of chromosomes, and my 23 chromosomes, that basically says I won't consume it. Turns out to be totally wrong, because of my behavior over the day. (all laugh) But what the Linux Foundation was interesting is everybody here wants to talk about, are we going to use this technology or that technology. What they want is an application, using the technology, and NantHealth that I talked about, can transport a terabyte of data virtually. In other words, it's not really doing it, but it's doing it through multiple sources and multiple consumers, and that's what people are fascinated by. >> All right, well like I said, Sammy gets into the wild and wooly ways and exciting new things. (Sam laughs) So sounds great, and a very bright future on the health care side. Thanks for stopping by. >> Thank you very much. I hope I didn't bore you with... (Jeff and Sam laugh) >> No, no, no, we don't want more chemotherapy, so that's definitely better to have less chemotherapy and more genetic fixing of sickness. So Sam, nice to see you again, thanks for stopping by. >> Thank you very much. >> Scott Raynovich, Jeff Frick, you're watching The Cube, from Open Networking Summit in Santa Clara, we'll be back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (synth music) >> Announcer: Robert Hershevech.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's theCUBE covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are in Santa Clara, California at the Open Networking Summit 2017. Really happy to be joined by my co-host for the next couple of days, Scott Raynovich. And we've been talking to a lot of providers and technical people, but now we want to talk to customers. We love talking to customers, and we're really excited to have Rashesh Jethi. He's the SVP, Head of R&D for the Americas for Amadeus, which is a big travel company. Welcome. >> Thank you so much, Jeff. Thank you, Scott. >> So like I said, we'd love to talk to a practitioner. So you're out on the frontlines, you're seeing all this talk of software-defined and software-defined networking. From your point of view, how real is it, where are we on this journey? What do you see from your point of view? >> Super real. Have you searched for a flight lately? >> I have searched for a flight. >> Excellent. I'm proud to tell you that your flight search very likely was powered by Amadeus, and it's running on a software-defined data center completely. So this stuff is real. We are, I believe, one of the first companies who have actually taken this from what was a very strong academic kind of research project onto this start-up ecosystem, but we're actually out there deploying it, running real world business, using a very purposeful and deliberate software-defined strategy. >> And it's interesting because you said before we got on camera that you guys are actually very active participants in the open source movement and development of this stuff. You're not just kind of a participant waiting in the wings for this stuff to get developed. >> I mean absolutely, and to me, that's one of the reasons which if you're serious about open source, you have to use it. You can't just talk about it. You can't just say it looks like a nice idea. You have to get out there and get your hands dirty and do it. But the other thing also is you have to contribute back. I think that's a big tenet of the open source community. And we all and certainly the company, we grew up and we've seen tech evolve through the ages. And a big part, especially in the last 10 years or so, has been the open source movement, and it's contributing back. It's one of the reasons I'm here. It's one of the reasons the conference organizers invited me, is to actually talk about how we use open source and software-defined strategy for our technology. >> That's cool. So where do you run this software? You run it in private cloud, public cloud? Do you guys build your own data centers? How do you run it? >> Quick history lesson and our quick history-- >> Let's back up. First off, where is Amadeus today for people that aren't familiar with the company? >> We are actually a 30-year-old company. We are celebrating our 30th birthday this year. The company was started in the late '80s as a consortium between four leading European airlines, Lufthansa, Air France, Iberia, and Scandinavian. So we started off, which was very typical at that time, as a mainframe shop, and that's where a lot of our core systems were built. We're a big provider of technology in general to the travel industry even though we were founded by airlines. So to put it in perspective, we carry about 95% of the world's scheduled commercial seats, airline seats, on our platform. >> 95%. >> 95%, so we work with the world's-- >> Are available to purchase. Obviously, 95% of the purchases don't go through your system. >> Right. They are available. They are used by over 90,000 travel agents, retail travel agents, corporate travel, online travel. And we work with over, like I said, 700 airlines, work for their inventory. So chances are if you travel on an airplane, very good chances that our software was used to make the reservation. We also have airline ID systems and hotel ID systems, and we work with the airports. And this is where we do departure control, flight management, baggage reconciliation, a lot of the back end processes. And we started the company, essentially runs as we write our own software. We are offered as a service from day one, so we are one of the oldest software service providers in the industry. And obviously, when we got started to do that, you had to own your own infrastructure. So we are pretty good at it. We have very strong kind of technical chops. We have a large data center outside Munich Airport and a bunch of smaller data centers all over the world. And what we're doing now is really very deliberately making the journey towards a cloud, both our private cloud, so taking our own infrastructure, virtualizing it, and making it available as a service for our own applications, and then where it makes sense, to leverage public cloud infrastructures where they are available. >> So different apps in different clouds, is that-- >> Different apps in different clouds based on customer preferences. The core reservation booking engines, they are in our own private cloud because we do have a lot of regulatory security, privacy considerations. So that stuff, we keep kind of close where we can keep a very watchful eye on it, but there are a lot of transactions we are also talking about. The volume of searches has grown up, right? Obviously, Google has seen a lot of search volume. If you look at our business, it used to be when you wanted to book a flight, you'd go to a travel agent and be able to look at a bunch of flight options and you'd pick one. About 20 years ago, you call it the look to book ratios. You'd look at 10 to 20 options and you'd book one. You want to guess what it is today? >> The look to book ratio was 20 to one. That's got to be way higher. That's got to be 80 to one. >> It's more like 1,000 to one. >> 1,000 to one. >> 1,000 to one. It's partly people like you and I who have a spare moment and have a vacation in mind, and we are looking at options. But keep in mind, anything that you search, it has to come into our systems. We have to configure the journey. We have to price it. We have to make sure it's available before we offer it up to you, right? So it's very transaction and computing intensive even before it touches any of the back ends where we do core kind of booking and passenger processing. And so to handle that scale, those are the kind of very logical applications that make sense for the public cloud. And those are the ones that we've looked to move. Certainly, for customers, we are a global company. We have customers all over the world. Some customers want to have some of these systems closer to their geographic location. So we look at all use cases kind of. >> That's amazing to think of. These things have so changed behavior and the way that we interact. I assume that 20 to one was a function because you would sit down. Now you sit down at your desk, time to book that flight, and maybe you don't get it done that day. You come back two or three times. But as you said, now it's grabbing little bits of time throughout the day whenever we can. But do you get paid on a regular subscription, or do you get paid on the transaction? Has that just increased your overhead, whatever the ratio 20 to 1,000 is? >> Absolutely, no, our business model has been very consistent from day one. We get paid on the number of bookings we make and the number of people that board aircraft, I mean roughly speaking. There are smaller lines of businesses, but those are our two main revenue drivers. So we see a lot of transaction volume upfront, but it doesn't translate to a booking which logically, it won't. Yes, that's noise or revenue for us, but we still have to service that volume because that's eventually, the funnels just gotten wider. And so it makes sense to do that in the most cost efficient manner but without compromising quality, without compromising speed. I mean if you're like me, if you have to wait for more than two or three seconds, you're like, "Ah, I'm moving on." >> Oh, two seconds. It's milliseconds, isn't it? >> Absolutely. >> And by the way, I still don't always find the flight I want. So where are those extra flights? Can you provide those for your service? >> Jeff: That extra 5% those are under. >> That's very different. It's got nothing to do with open source and kind of what we're talking about here, but a lot of what you're doing in there from an engineering perspective is just looking at, for example, machine learning algorithms. And what you said is actually a very common complaint, is how do I find kind of the right sort of flights. And more importantly, if you have certain preferences with airports or airlines or loyalty programs or time of day, how do I provide you context-sensitive results? We are doing a lot of kind of core R&D work for that, but our customers are doing amazing work as well. KAYAK is one of our customers, very close to our offices in the Boston area, and they do pretty amazing work in terms of getting their context right and then applying machine learning technologies and artificial intelligence. It's very, very early days but very exciting, very promising. >> One of the cool features I like are these fare alerts. I don't know if you use them. It tells you, it predicts this is going to go up. You better book now, wait. Do you guys do that sort of thing too? >> Our customers do that. We have a very simple model. Our customers are travel agencies, online, American Express, Expedia, metasearches like KAYAK, Skyscanner, et cetera, the airlines themselves whose products we host in our system and we sell. So a lot of our engineering work is learning to offering kind of core innovation so that they can offer products for people like you and me, their customers, the best products out there. So we focus on enabling them. And then at an operational level, we try to do it in the most efficient manner and the most future proof that we can think of. >> What about security? I mean it sounds like a lot of sensitive data changing hands here, right, where are people going to sit on an airplane, where are they going. You must have incredible security demands on your data now. >> Yes. (Jeff and Scott laugh) I mean you understand, obviously, it's paramount to us. And the good news is, look, we've been in this business for 30 years. We have really deep domain expertise in that. And also, you'll understand why I wouldn't want to talk too much about what we do and how we do it, but absolutely, that's one of the-- >> Scott: You just lock it down. >> Prime drivers of everything we think all the way from application design to things like the infrastructure planning and design to the physical level. I mean everything you can think of and probably a couple of things you may not think of. >> Hopefully a few things we didn't think of. So where do you go next? It sounds like you're enabling a lot of the innovation on your partner's side. You just mentioned KAYAK and people writing some of the machine learning and AI algorithms to help the end traveler find what they're looking for. Where are you guys concentrating? You said you've been at it for 30 years. What are some of the next big hurdles that you're looking to take down? >> It's wonderful, I think, being close to our customers. And one of the reasons I'm in Boston, we are a European company. We are actually headquartered in Madrid. Our core engineering team, our central engineering team is in France. The reason I'm in Boston and my team is in Boston is we've started doing a lot of business here in North America, and we try to stay very close to our customers. And when you listen carefully, and that's why we have two ears and one mouth is to hopefully try to listen a lot, you do see their pain points, you do see where they are going with kind of their business. And it gives us a chance to have a front row seat in designing new products that they can use. So to me, it's kind of two pronged. One is we want to offer the best technology we can to our customers at the best price point we can. And obviously, by now, you've figured out it's mission critical stuff has to always be on. Keeping those kind of boundary conditions in mind, you want to be the best technology provider, and then we want to innovate. So one of the things I'm seeing at this conference, there's a lot of friends from the service providers who are talking about 5G technology. And so with connected cars, with virtual reality, I mean these are all trends that are going to impact us as travelers in a positive way. And so we have a dedicated innovation team across all our business lines. We do a lot of work with academic institutions, with ETH in Zurich, with MIT here, close to my office in Boston. And there's just a chockfull of possibilities in terms of what can be done. >> All right, I'll give you the last word, impressions on the show. What do you get out of a show like this? Why is it important for you to come? >> It's amazing. I mean this morning, Martin Casado was there. He's called kind of the grand daddy of software-defined networking (mumbles). >> He's not that old yet, but he's going to like seeing that clip. (laughs) >> It's true. I read that at The Guardian. It was on one of the newspapers. But the fact is we used NSX for virtualization in our entire data center, and we have close to 20,000 infrastructure devices. All our computers are virtualized, 100% of it, and it's all using NSX from VMware, right? Now this was a sort of brilliant idea by an extremely intelligent and persuasive graduate student at Stanford 15 years ago that is, as he announced this morning, is a billion-dollar business today, right? And we are actually using the technology, and it's very real, to process all of this. So it's great to be able to see what people like him, I mean from Google, he's a great partner of ours. We use Kubernetes for kind of the container deployment strategy for our cloud network. We hear him speak about what they're thinking about in terms of investments and how the network is going to essentially drive the movement of data analytics. It's just phenomenal to get the top leadership. I'm obviously very honored and privileged to be presenting to this audience and to share our thoughts and what we're doing and just to see a lot of the buzz around here and what wonderful ideas are happening in the Valley. There's so much action, as always, going on. >> Great, great, great summary. Well, glad you could take a few minutes to stop by theCUBE. >> Completely my pleasure. Thank you very much. Great meeting you, and have a great rest of the show. >> All right. He's Rashesh, he's Scott, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE from Open Networking Summit 2017 in Santa Clara. We'll be back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Robert Herjavec. >> People obviously know you from Shark Tank, but The Herjavec Group has been really laser focused on cybersecurity. >> I actually helped to bring upon Checkpoint to (mumbles) firewalls, URL filtering, that kind of stuff. >> But you're also...

>> Narrator: Live from Santa Clara, California it's theCUBE. Covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Santa Clara at the Open Networking Summit 2017. We haven't been here for a couple years. Obviously Open is everywhere. It's in hardware, it's in compute, it's in store, and it's certainly in networking as well. And we're excited to be joined first off by Scott Raynovich who will be co-hosting for the next couple of days. Good to see you again Scott. >> Good to see you. >> And our next guest is Ihab Tarazi. He's the EVP and CTO of Equinix. Last time we saw Ihab was at Open Compute Project last year, so great to see you again. >> Yeah, thank you very much, good to be here. I really enjoyed the interview last year so thanks for having me again. >> Now you set it at the high bar, so hopefully we can pull it off again. >> We can do it. >> So first off for folks that aren't familiar with Equinix, give them kind of an overview. Because you don't have quite the profile of Amazon and Google and the other cloud providers, but you're a pretty important piece of the infrastructure. >> Ihab: Yeah absolutely. While we're nowhere close to the size of those players, the place we play in the universe is very significant. We are the edge of the cloud, I would say. We enable all these players, they're all our biggest customers. As well all the networks are our biggest customers. We have over 2,000 clouds in our data centers and over 1,400 networks. We have one of the largest global data center networks. We have 150 data centers and four eMarkets around the world. And that number is going to get a little bigger. Now we announce the acquisition of Verizon data center assets. So we'll have more data centers and a few more markets. >> I heard about the Verizon acquisition, so congratulations, just adding more infrastructure. But let's unpack it a little bit. Two things I want to dig into. One is you said you have clouds in your data centers. So what do you mean by that? >> Yeah the way the cloud architecture is deployed is that the big cloud providers will have these big data centers where they build them themselves and it hosts the applications. And then they work with an edge for the cloud. Either a caching edge or compute edge, or even a network edge in data centers like ours where they connect to all their enterprise customers and all the networks. So we have a significant number of edges, we have 21 markets around the world. We have just about the big list of names, edges, that you can connect to automatically. From AWS, Google, Microsoft, Salesforce.com, Oracle, anybody else you think of. >> So this is kind of an extension of what we heard back a long time ago with you guys and like Amazon specifically on this direct connect. So you are the edge between somebody else's data center and these giant cloud providers. >> Absolutely. And since the last time we talked, we've added a lot more density. More edge nodes and more markets and more new cloud providers. Everywhere from the assess to the infrastructure as a service provider. >> And why should customers care? What's the benefit to your customers for that? >> Yeah the benefit is really significant. These guys want direct access to the cloud for high performance and security. So everybody wants to build the hybrid cloud. Now it's very clear the hybrid cloud is the architecture of choice. You want to build a hybrid cloud, then you want to deploy in a data center and connect to the cloud. And the second thing that's happening, nobody's using just one cloud. Everybody's doing a multi-cloud. So if you want 40, 50 clouds like most companies do, most CIOs, then you're going to want to be in a data center that has as many as possible. If you're going to go global, connect to multi-cloud and have that proximity, you're going to have a hard time finding somebody like Equinix out there. >> Yeah but I've got a question. You mentioned the Verizon deal. There was a trend for a while where all these big service providers were buying data centers, including AT&T, CenturyLink, and now the trend appears to have reversed. Now they're selling the data centers that they bought. I'd love your insight on that. Why that just wasn't their core competency? Why are the selling them back to people like Equinix. >> Yeah that's a good question. What's happened over time as the cloud materialized, is the data canters are much more valuable if they're neutral. If you can come in and connect to all the clouds and all the networks, customers are much more likely to come in. And therefore if a data center is owned by a single network, customers are not as likely to want to use it because they want to use all the networks and all the clouds. And our model of neutrality and how we set up exchanges, and how we provide interconnection, and the whole way we do customer service, is the kind of things people are looking for. >> So you're the Switzerland of the cloud. >> And so the same assets become much more valuable in this new model. >> And I don't know if people understand quite how much direct connection and peer-to-peer, and how much of that's going on, especially in a business-to-business context to provide a much better experience. Versus you know the wild wooly internet of days of old where you're hopping all over the place, Lord knows how many hops you're taking. A lot of that's really been locked down. >> I think the most important step people can think about is by 2020 90% of all the internet, or at least 80 to 90, will be home to the top 10 clouds. Therefore the days of the wild internet, while that continues to be significant, the cloud access and interconnection is very critical, and continues to be even bigger. >> Go ahead. >> So tell us what the logistics are of managing the growth, like you opening how many data centers a year, and how much equipment are you moving into these data centers. We spend over a billion dollars a year on upgrading, adding capacity, and building new data centers. We usually announce five, six, new ones a year. We usually have 20 plus projects, if not more, active at any time. So we have a very focused process and people across the globe manage this thing. We don't want to go dark in any of our key matters like Washington DC, the D.C. market, or let's say the San Jose, Silicon Valley, etc. Because customers want to come in and continue to add and continue to bring people. And that means not only expanding the existing data centers, but buying land and building more data centers beside it, and continue to expand where we need to. And then every year or so we go into one or two more emerging markets. We went into Dubai a while ago and we continue to develop it. And those become long term investments to continue to build our global infrastructure. The last few years we've made massive acquisitions between Telecity in Europe, Bit-isle in Japan, and now the Verizon assents that expanded our footprint significantly into new markets, Eastern Europe, give us bigger markets in places like Tokyo which helped us get to where we are today. >> One of the themes in networking and cloud in general is that the speed of light is just too damn slow. At the end of the day, stuff's got to travel and it actually takes longer than you would think. So does having all these, increased presence, increased egos, increased physical locations, help you address some of that? Because you've got so many more points kind of into this private network if you will. >> Oh yeah absolutely. The content has become more and more localized by market. And the more you have things like IOT and devices pulling in more data, not all the data needs to go all over the globe. And also there is now jurisdiction and laws that require some of the content to stay. So the market approach that we have is becoming the center of mass for where the data resides. And once the data gets into our data center, the value of the data is how you exchange it with other pieces of information, and increasingly how you make immediate decisions on it, you know with automation and machine learning. So when you go to that environment you need massive capacity, very low latency, to many data warehouses or data lakes, and you want to connect that to the software that can make decisions. So that's how we see the world is evolving now. One thing we see though is that complementing that will be a new edge that will form. A lot of people in this conference were talking about that. A lot of the discussion about the open networks here is how we support the 5G, all the explosion of devices, and what we see that connecting to that dense market approach that we have where the data is housed. >> That's interesting you just mentioned all the devices which was going to be my next question. So the internet of things, how will this change the data center edge, as you refer to it? >> Yeah that's the biggest question in the industry, especially for networks. And the same discussion happened at Mobile Work Congress here a little while ago. People now believe that there'll be this compute edge, that the network will be a compute edge. Because you want to be able to put compute, keep pushing it out all the way to the edge. And that edge needs to support today's technologies but also all the open wireless spectrum, all the low powered networks, open R which is one of the frequencies for the millimeter frequencies, and also the 5G as you know. So when you add all that up you're going to need this edge to support. So all the different wireless options plus some amount of compute, and that problem is very hard to solve without an open source model, which is where a lot of people are here looking for solutions. >> It's interesting because your definition of the edge feels like it's kind of closer to the cloud where's there's a lot of converstion, we do a lot of stuff with GE about the edge, which is you know right out there on the device and the sensor. Because as you said depending on the application, depending on the optimization, depending on what you're trying to do, the device is some level of compute and store that's going to be done locally, and some of it will go upstream and get processed and come downstream. But you're talking about a different edge. Or you know of see you guys extending all the way down to that edge. >> We don't see ourselves extending at this time but definitely it's something we're spending a lot of time analyzing to see what happens. I would say a couple of big stats is that today our edge is maybe 100 milliseconds from devices in a market or a lot less in some cases. The new technology will make that even shorter. So with the new technology like you said, you can't beat the speed of light, but with more direct connections you'll get to 40, 50 milliseconds, which is fantastic for the vast majority of applications people want. There'll be very few applications that need much slower latency all the way down to the sub-10 millisecond. For those somebody like a network would need to put compute at the edge to do some of it. So that world of both types will continue. But even the ones that need the very low latency, for some of the data it still needs to compare it to other sources of data and connect to clouds and networks but some of the data will still come back to our data centers. So I think this is how we see the world evolving but it's early days and a lot of brain power will be spent on that. >> So as you look forward to 2017, what are some of the big items on your plate that you're trying to take down for this calendar year? >> The biggest thing I want on our list is that we have an explosion of software model. Everybody who was a software now has a software platform. When we were at OCP for example you saw NetApp, they showed their software as an open source. Every single company from security to storage, even networking, are now creating their platform available as a software. Well those platforms have no place to go today. They have no deployment model. So one of the things we are working on is how we create a deployment model for this as a service model. And most of them is open source, so it needs decoupling of software and hardware. So we are really actively working with all these to create an open source software and just software in general, ecosystem plus this whole open source hardware. >> So do you guys have a pretty aggressive software division inside Equinix, especially in these open source projects? Or how do you kind of interact with them? >> Our model is to enable the industry. So we have some of our tools but mostly for enabling customers and customer service, as well as some of the basic interconnection we do. The vast majority of all the stuff is our partners, and these are our customers. So our model is to enable them and to connect them to everybody else they need at ecosystem to succeed and help them set up as a service model. And as the enterprise customers come to our data center, how to they connect to them. So I would say that's one of the most sought after missions when we go to conferences like this. Everybody who announced today is talking to us about how they enable the announcements they make and given our place in the universe, we would be a very key player in enabling that ecosystem. >> Do you have like a special lab where you test these new technologies? Or how do you do that? >> Yeah that's the plan. And we connect this effort to also what we're doing with OCP and Telecom Infrastructure Project where we have a leadership position and highly engaged. We are creating a lab environment where people can come in and test not only the hardware from TIP and OCP, but also the software from open network, but many other open source software in general under the Linux Foundation or others. In our situation not only can they test it against each other, but they can test the performance against the entire world. How does this work with the internet, the cloud? And that leading us to deployment and go to market models that people are looking for. >> Alright sounds pretty exciting. Equinix, a company that probably handles more of your internet traffic than you ever thought. >> Ihab: That's very true. >> Well thanks again for stopping by. We'll look for you at our next open source show. >> Thank you very much. >> Ihab Tarazi from Equinix. He's Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCube from Open Networking Summit 2017, see you next time after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in L.A. for the Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Stu Miniman, my co-host. Our next guest Jim Zemlin, Executive Director of the Linux Foundation, runs the whole show. Welcome back to The Cube, great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you. Runs the whole show is a little bit of an overstatement. >> Well, certainly great keynote up there, I mean, a lot of things coming together. Just some structural things. Let's get the update on what's going on structurally with the Linux Foundation, one, and then two, the keynote today, this morning, really kind of laid out the state of the union, if you will, and all cylinders are pumping, no doubt, on open source. So give the quick update on kind of what's going on with the Linux Foundation and then let's get in some of the trends inside the open source movement. >> Yeah, I mean, our organization has grown quite a bit in the last few years as evident by all the people who are here at this event. But our focus is really on the projects that are important to, you know, the stability, security, and growth of the global internet and of large-scale systems. And when you look at Linux or Node.js or things like our networking projects which are powering the production networks for 3 1/2 billion people, what we're really focused on is making sure those projects are healthy, making sure that they have great developers who write incredible code, that it's used to power things like China Mobile's network or AT&T's production network. And then, those firms are employing the developers who then write more code, you get more solutions, products, services based on Linux or whatever. More reinvestment, lather, rinse, repeat. It's that cycle we're trying to promote. >> So before we get into some of the stats, structurally, I know this show, we've Cube comments out there, clarify the structure. How the shows are rolling out, how are you guys putting together the big-tent events, and how developers can get involved in the specific events across, but now there's a ton of projects. But just at a high level, what's the structure? >> Yeah, so, you know, and I'll throw out a few stats. We have about 25,000 developers that attend all of our events which are all over the world. But we have our Open Source Summit which is really sort of a summit to come together and talk about these big-picture issues around sustainability to allow for cross-project collaboration. We have project-specific events so the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon event which is coming up in Austin which is going to be blow-out, you know, I'm expecting thousands of people. I think probably three, 4,000 people. >> And even more platinum sponsors than I've ever seen on any project before so huge demand. >> It's crazy, yeah. Yeah, you know, get it while it's good, right? All these things kind of go up and down but they're on the upswing. So we have project-specific and then in the networking sector, we have have the Open Networking Summit which is sort of similar to the Open Source Summit but much more focused on networking technology, SDN, and NFD, and that is going to be in L.A. next year and we'll have a U.S. event and then a European and an Asian. >> And this show's purpose is what? How would you position the Open Source Summit? >> The Open Source Summit is where all the projects come together and do cross-pollination. I mean, the idea here is that if you're just always in your silo, you can't actually appreciate what someone else is doing that may improve your project. >> And Jim, there's a couple of events that came together to make this 'cause it was LinuxCon, ContainerCon, and MesosCon is also co-resident so. >> Exactly, so we just decided after a while that all these events could come together and again, this cross-pollination of ideas. >> And they kind of did, they're just different hotels in Seattle last time. >> Yeah, exactly. That's enough, it's just going to be Open Source-- >> It's a big-tent event. >> It's a big-tent event and it really reflects how open source has gone mainstream in a way that I don't think any of us would've predicted even maybe five, six years ago. >> It's pretty massive. Just to quote some stats. 23 million plus open source developers, what you shared onstage there, want to get to your keynote. 41 billion lines of code. 1,000 plus new projects a day. 10,000 new versions pushed per day. 64 million repos on GitHub. Just amazing growth so this kind of points to obviously the rising tide is floating all boats. I made a comment, I tweeted, in the spirit of the joke of standing on the shoulders of giants before you, it's like, what shoulders are we standing on now? Because there's so many projects. Is there going to be like a legacy like the dual-star, badge values, been around for a while? You mentioned old news and you bring up Linus onstage. I mean, some projects are older, more mature, Bruce Wayne, Tier One, meat and potatoes, some got a little bit more flair and fashion to it, if you will. So you got new dynamics going on. Share your thoughts on this. >> Yeah, I mean, it's like the shoulders you're standing on are almost like stage-diving, right? Where it's just lots of people's shoulders that you're really bouncing around on. But the idea here, and what we really focus on, is what are the most important projects in the world and how do we make sure we sustain those projects. So those are the ones that you're going to generally see focused on here. Like, you know, if you've got two people contributing to one small repo for a very small project, that's probably not something that's going to be super high-profile here. But what we're trying to do is bring together sort of the big projects and also the key contributors. You know, if you look at the distribution of contribution, and this is the thing, I think, if you're a developer listening to something like this, someone who gives just one commit to a project to solve some kind of problem they might have, that's the vast majority of people. Somebody who does maybe five to 10 commits, you know, a little bit less, quite a bit less. The vast majority of code, people who give 25 or more commits to a project, small group of folks, they're here. >> I know Stu wants to ask a question, one final question on the growth 'cause this kind of reminds me of sports as we're like the ESPN of tech here for the community. If you look at the growth, you put a slide in there by SourceClear that show the projection, by 2026, at 400 million libraries, putting it today around, I think, 64 million. This is going to be like an owners meeting. It's kind of like they get together, this event because you are going to have so many projects 'cause this is kind of the vibe you got going on in here. The scale is massive, this is going to be almost like the owners meeting, the teams. Expansion's going to be coming, you have to deal with that, that's challenging. >> We're ready to grow, I mean, we've been working on systems and staffing and processes to help scale with that. You know, we take seriously that that code runs modern society. It keeps us private or doesn't as we saw with the Equifax hack which was a CVE in an open source project and we want to be ready to up our game. Let's say we could have secure coding class at this very event for the greatest developers who are working on our most important projects in the world. Would that make all of our lives better? Yes, absolutely. >> Yes, absolutely would. Yeah and you want to enable that, that's where you're going. >> That's exactly where we're going. >> Jim, the quote that jumped out at me that you gave in the keynote was, projects with sustainable ecosystems are the ones that matter. How do we balance all this? I heard in, you know, Linus's Q and A it was, look, individual's important but companies are important. You put up a slide and said, there's thousands and thousands of projects, sometimes we're going to get some really awesome stuff from three people contributing code versus the massive ecosystem with all the platinum providers so, it's always in technology, it's an and and it's very nuanced but how do we get our arms around this? How do we know where to focus? >> It's worth going back in time to understand where the future is going and study innovation theory, you know, Eric von Hippel at MIT, or Karim Lakhani at Harvard Business School. And you look at the framework, which is, you have corporations who underwrite a lot of development by hiring developers who have an equal importance in this and then users of that software. So those are your main constituents and sometimes they're the same people, right, or the same things. They're not mutually exclusive, they're actually self-reinforcing if you get the formula right and you make sure that the project is in good shape so that it gives confidence to industry or society that, hey, we can count on that. I think Heartbleed and OpenSSL maybe rattled people's cages like, hey, can we count on, not just this project, but can we count on open source period? So we spent a ton of time working with that project to provide them millions in resources, audited their code, expanded their testing, and we learned a hell of a lot about how to support these communities in the most important developer projects in the world and create that positive feedback loop, that's what we're doing. >> Yeah and Jim, it's, as an analyst, one of the things we're always asked is, right, how do I choose the right technology? Whereas companies now are contributing here so it's not just I'm putting dollars in, I'm putting manpower into this. And the foundations sometimes get a lot of lung from people, saying it's like, oh well, people throw money and what do they get out of it? I liked what I heard today, you talking about this cycle, and maybe talk to our audience a little bit about CHAOSS which I though was a nice, tongue-in-cheek acronym to say how you're actually going to bring order to the chaos that we see in the open source world. >> I'm going to come to this but I want to answer one quick question about the roles of organizations like ours. We are the roadies, the supporting cast, and the plumbers and the janitors of the system that keep things going but the real rock stars are the developers. If you think about it, Linux is worth $10 billion. An average kernel developer makes probably, let's say $150,000 a year, by the way, they make more than your average developer because they're in such high demand. The role of organizations like ours is such a tiny fraction financially of what is really fueling this model but it's an important one. What we ask ourselves all the time is, why do you need us? Who cares, right? Like, throw your code up on GitHub, you don't need the Linux Foundation, right? Why do we even exist? And the answer is to do things like this Community Health Analytics for Open Source Software, to provide the infrastructure for sustainability. Sustainability is something that we need to measure, right? How many developers are contributing to a project? Are they from a diverse community so that if one group goes away, there'll be somebody else there to do that work? How much test coverage do they have? Are there code quality metrics that we could look at? Do they have security practices like a responsible disclosure policy, a security mailing list? Have they recently fuzzed their code? Are they a community that's welcoming for people of different backgrounds? And so on and so forth. If you don't have a healthy project, you kind of don't want to bet your company on this project by using it in a production system, right? But here's the interesting thing, how many people are using that code in production also is a metric for health, right? Because that's where the reinvestment is going to come in the form of developers who are working on it. >> There's a difference between being proactive and jamming something down someone's throat. So you're taking an approach, if I get this right, to be kind of the same open source ethos, use some KPIs, key performance indicators, to give them a sense of success. But it's not an edict saying-- >> No, no, it can't be an edict. What you want to do is preserve the organic innovation that goes on in open source and get projects to go, and you'll notice that curve of sort of value to volume goes up and to the left, we could've written it to the right but, you know, the whole copyleft thing we love. How do you get that organic innovation to kind of go from this small project up and to the left? How do you capture that? Well, give tools to everyone so that they can better self-analyze. >> John: You get exponential growth with that. >> Exactly. >> If you try to control, it's linear but you bring it to the community, you get exponential growth. >> Exactly, so we studied a ton of innovation theory, we looked at how we could build frameworks to facilitate this kind of form of mass innovation and so that's where tools like CHAOSS which is being worked on by Red Hat and a lot of companies who want to figure out which project should I work on? How can I spot that one earlier? And we're excited about it. >> You know, I always joke, being the old guy that I am, in the late '80s, early '90s, '80s particularly when I was coding. We did everything, we wrote all the code. You bring up an interesting stat and you put the finger on, at least for me, and I think this is where a lot of us old timers who had to do all the libraries from scratch. You mentioned the code sandwich, the code club, the club sandwich, how code's being made and the interesting thing, as you point out, 90% of most great software is done with open source where the 10% innovation is done with original code or original content, if you will, and that that is the norm. So open source is now called the code sandwich because you can put your differentiation and that's a good use of time. >> That's the meat, right. >> That's the meat, it's not a wish sandwich to use the old Blues Brothers example but I mean look, the thing is is that that's dynamic is real, the code is leverageable, and that this is the dynamic so where'd the number come from? Because that seems really high to me but I love it. >> So that number came from a combination of Sonatype, SourceClear, and other organizations that monitor commercial reuse of software on a global basis. So these are the folks who are actually working with commercial industry to look at the makeup of their code, basically. You don't have to go far to look at a Node.js developer, they're using Node.js, they're taking packages out of NPM, and they're writing, they're cut and paste masters, but they write this critical component that's the meat of their application, it's what they do. >> But that's the innovation fabric that's happening. >> It also is a requirement because let's look at a modern, luxury vehicle today. It has 100 million lines of code in it. That's more than an F-35, like, fighter jet. That's an unbelievable amount of code. Toyota, who we work with, and you know, our AGL, our Automotive Grade Linux, is in their Camry. They couldn't write that code on their own. It's just too much. And this is how we get to autonomous vehicle control and things like that. >> I know you got a tight schedule, I want to make one more comment, get your reaction to it. I made a tweet and said, it's open bar in open source and with a reference to all the goodness being donated by companies, Google TensorFlow, there's a lot of other things coming in, these libraries. A lot of people are bringing really, really big IP to the table, IoT, and I kind of made an open remark 'cause a lot of the young kids, they think this is normal, like, well it's going to get better. Keep on drinking that open source. Is this normal? Is it going to be more like this in the future? Because you have essentially real intellectual property, like say from Google, being given to the open source communities as a gift for innovation. I mean, that is just unprecedented greatness. >> The reason for that is they're not doing it necessarily altruistically although I think you can take it that way, they're doing it in a way that betters themselves and others at the same time. I mean, it is a form of collective capitalism where they've realized, my value's over here, it is better for me to collaborate on underlying infrastructure software that my customers don't care about that's not critical to my system but I absolutely have to have and I'm going to focus on data or I'm going to focus on much higher-level innovation. And what that's doing is creating this hockey stick of innovation where, as we share more and more and more infrastructure software, and as that keeps moving up and up the stack, we all benefit. >> So in the theory of the management, bring up management theory, their theory, I'd love to get your thoughts on, is that they're betting on scale rather than trying to go for profits in the short-term, they'd much rather share intellectual property on the back-end value of scale and scale's the new competitive advantage. >> Exactly, take Kubernetes as an example. The fact that, today, and just even a couple years ago this wasn't known, we didn't quite know where this was going to be, but today you can take Node.js, build a container, you know, take an application, throw it into a container, and use Kubernetes to run it on Azure, Amazon, Google, or in a private cloud. That definition, the ability to do that, unlocks this massive developer productivity which creates more value which is more business opportunity for all these guys. You know, they're not doing it 'cause they're nice people, they're doing it 'cause they're unlocking market potential. >> And they're the real rock stars. Jim you're doing a great job. Congratulations on your success. You got a lot of growth in front of you, a lot of challenges and opportunities certainly with that and of course, the tech athletes out there doing the coding, they're the real rock stars, they're the real athletes. Of course, we get more on The Cube, thanks for your support with The Cube as well, appreciate that. >> Jim: Thank you, thanks for everything. >> Alright, this is live coverage from Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, California. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. Live in San Francisco. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Cisco's new inaugural DevNet Create event targeting the DevOps open source community as they put their toe in the water, their foray into a community approach to build on top of their success of their classic developer program, DevNet, which is only three years old. Shouldn't call it classics. It's actually emerging still and growing. Arnesc is our pitch, Joshipura GM, Network and Orchestration at the Linux Foundation. I'm also joined with my cohost Peter Burris. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Good to see you again, welcome back. Cube alumni. Obviously open networking. You guys are involved, you're having a great show, we cover it every year. Open Networking Summit, among other things. Huge demand for the technologies. An appetite for content in your area. Here at Cisco DevNet Create, you're seeing the emergence of Cisco taking their roots in networking and plumbing and operations, which, by the way, you know from the networking world. Sacred cows all over the place. Bringing it to the wild west, agile developer who wants infrastructure at Cisco is bringing that application meets infrastructure saying, we're going to bring programmable networking. That's music to the ears to the developers so we are getting infrastructure as code. That's your wheelhouse. What's going on in the Linux Foundation to continue this momentum? How do you guys look at this trend, give us the update on how the Linux Foundation is participating, supporting, getting involved with this programmable networking infrastructure as code trend. >> Sure. So first of all, let me baseline everybody. Linux Foundation is here to create the largest shared technology investment by building sustainable ecosystems. That's the mission in life. Within the Linux Foundation obviously the most successful open source project is Linux. But we're way beyond Linux. We host a whole set of open source projects starting from cloud native, CNCF, cloud foundry to blockchain projects like hyperledger, automotive grade Linux and a whole variety of Let's Encrypt, you name it. That we facilitate this shared technology investment. The area I own, which is networking, has several projects up and down the stack. All the way from data plane acceleration to orchestration, analytics and it's intended for carriers, enterprise, and cloud service providers including one of the most recent, highly successful and much in demand project called ONAP which is a full network automation stack. Open network automation platform. Which again, is an open source way to connect apps to infrastructure. This is the movement that you just mentioned and I'm really excited that the community's finally realizing the implications of the three letter acronym that started this whole thing called SDN. (laughing) >> SDN, SD when, a lot of stuff going on. Software defined, data center, obviously Cisco has a huge dominant preposition in the enterprise, data center in particular, but also they have a huge service provider business MSL. All that, they've been connecting networks on internet scale since the '90s. Really doing a great job. Now they got to really think about the future. What's your view there because I think Linux Foundation, you guys have been great stewards for sustainable ecosystems, but now Cisco has to put their toe into the new ecosystem. What's the meaning of that? What's the view, outlook? What's your take on where they're at? It looks good off the tee, middle of the fairway as we were saying earlier. Messaging's good, 90% of the content's community, agenda's relevant, looks good. >> I think our perspective is there's a major disruption happening. But it's not a technology disruption, it's an end user disruption. What I mean by that is the end users, whether it be carriers, whether it be enterprises whether it be cloud service providers, they are demanding that open source be part of the agenda. The reason for that is very simple. It's providing more agility, providing the access to the source code to allow for much faster feature development. They want to contribute, they want to develop the ecosystem to meet their requirements and everybody is unique as we all know. What is happening is, in this new environment, vendors, service providers, carriers, everybody is re-inventing themselves. They're re-inventing themselves with a new business model and the business model is essentially, how do I take a leadership role in developing this shared technology investment? It's not about a box. It's not about the fastest and the smallest and the largest switch routers, etc. It's about a software plan. >> It used to be about free software. Now, nothing's free because people are putting their company's name on the line. Their business models now are integrated to open source and they have people involved in other parts so technically it's free software but it's really, technically not free. But this is the new business model, this is what people are doing. >> I think you can-- >> It's tier one resource. >> If you look at the world's largest carriers today, whether it's in China, whether it's in US or in Europe, they have deployments that are built on open source. Open source networking specifically is becoming mainstream in terms of deployment. >> What's the hottest mainstream product right now? Is it SDN? What's the hottest in the-- >> SDN is a technology. SDN, NFV, network function virtualization. Those are technologies that enable the deployment of open source projects. We got projects like Open Daylight, ODL, OPNFV, ONAP, these are just names. Again as networking-- >> What's the hottest here, NFV or-- >> Right now ONAP is the hottest. As networking guys we always make these three or four letter acronyms so sorry to bug you. >> That's okay I don't mind. >> But that's how it is. >> So one of the observations at least we made at Wikibon and we made it here a couple times, is that open source has proven to be magnificently successful when the target is well defined. Other words, conventions of an operating system, there's no disagreement about what an operating system does. Hence open source could create a Linux that has just been wildly successful. Open source has not been as good at redefining the new use cases or where the technology might go. Therefore, a lot of times open source developers end up looking at each other and making each other's tools work. Which is, for example, in the big data universe, restricted the adoption of Aduke and the ability of Aduke for example. So getting value you out of it, but it's not as successful as it might be. That raises a question. I'm wondering what role you play in all this. Is there a need for a degree of open source leadership that can set the big picture, the longterm trends without undermining the innovative and inventive freedom of how developers have demonstrated they want to work together? What do you think? >> I think that's an excellent question. What happens is just by throwing software on say, Github, doesn't make you an open source project. I mean yeah, it does make you open source but that doesn't make you a successful open source project. You need a community behind it. You need a community of developers and a sustained ecosystem. One of the things we are championing, and I'm personally driving that agenda, which is thought leadership on how do these pieces fit together. As we are moving from components that were disagregated in networking to production ready software components, to production ready solutions, these all need to fit together and developed in its entirety. When you look at it holistically, from a solutions perspective, the most important thing that matters are use cases. So what we have done-- >> Totally agree. >> What we have done is for every project, strategically, when the requirements are laid down, I think of that as a requirements document. Or when the architecture is laid down. The end user use cases are explicitly defined for the community. The architecture is laid out. In that framework, the Linux Foundation facilitates the developments, the infrastructure the devOps, the agile model to come and co-create this technology in this area. >> So that's how you're doing the ideation. Are you then taking that and stepping up and also doing some of the design work? And it sounds like you are. >> We facilitate the community to do the design work, we give them architectural part leadership, we give them inter-project cross-leadership. For example, we have, in my group, in networking we have about 11 plus projects. There are multiple data plane acceleration projects. When you're putting a solution, you want portion of data plane acceleration to ride on a control plane, to ride on orchestration, to be tested end to end. Projects like OPNFV for example, they test all the pieces. They test things like FDIO, which is an acceleration project, they test open stack. Which again, it's not Linux Foundation but we do bring all the pieces together. Effectively the end user has it relatively easy to adopt and start installing. >> Congratulations, I saw that the Linux Foundation recently hired Sheryl Chamberlain as the Chief of Staff. Cube alumni been on many times, shout out for Cheryl. So you guys are growing. How are you guys handling the growth? I want to get your thoughts and you don't have to speak for the whole foundation but in general, for the folks not necessarily familiar with the inner workings of the Linux Foundation, like open source, you guys are always evolving and growing. How are you serving your stakeholders, your members and taking care and maintaining the sustainable ecosystems? >> The difference between a typical, throw the code up on GitHub versus actively managed, sustainable ecosystem is where Linux Foundation comes in. What we provide to projects in different capacity, is everything from IT as a service, marketing as a service, program management, thought leadership, executive directors, PR, media, and most importantly, events, global events to get the word out. All of that service, if you may, is what facilitates the community. Once the community is all coming together, things happen. I'll just give you an example, we just completed a developer summit on one of the projects called ONAP. Ran out of capacity, clearly. 200 people from world-wide, top-notch architects got in a room and they discussed how to merge almost 15 million lines of code. And they figured it out in four days. >> Over coffee. >> Not over coffee, it's like four days. >> I'm kidding (laughing). >> But they figured it out. I think that level of facilitation that we can provide, because you can't have it on a blank piece of paper. You need some framework, some governance, some model and some processes on how to do it. That's what Linux Foundation excels at. >> I want to move into the third area I want to discuss with you, us. You mentioned the three major customer and end users. Carriers, enterprises, cloud service providers. How do you guys relate and serve those customers when there's other stuff going on in the industry? We see Open Compute, Facebook's doing a lot of stuff, Google's throwing in a ton of open source. We have yet to see Amazon make their move with donating really good networking stuff. Certainly we've seen some machine learning out there, but, we're expecting to see an arm's race of presents coming in. It's like open bar at the hotel. More goodness is coming in from the big guys sponsoring great code. >> My mission is this year, at least, one of the things I've laid out at ONS this year was to harmonize the ecosystem. And harmonization doesn't mean merge it all so now we're one solution. Harmonization means understand where each other solutions interwork, inter-operate. If they overlap, we end up merging the projects, like what we did for ECOMP and OpenAL. That's one of the missions. Now in that process, we're looking, not just within the Linux Foundation and in my role, but also outside. That includes not just the software stacks, but also the hardware infrastructure layers. That would be OCP, that could be TIP, etc. And several others that are coming up. As well as harmonization with standards bodies. We believe that standards and open source coexist and there is a complimentary relationship there. We've been actively working with several of the standards. MEF, Team Forum, etc., etc. Trying to get a view. We just published a white paper on the Linux Foundation website on harmonizing standards on open source. There is a whole movement of ecosystem because at the end of the day, a carrier wants to solve a problem. They don't care how we solve it. I mean they do but not in a fragmented sense. And that problem is different from what an enterprise wants to solve and it's different from what a cloud. Now to your earlier question, the great news is cloud carriers and enterprises, they're looking and smelling the same as cloud native apps, cloud container networking and open source networking, they're all start combining, coming together. >> So I want to share with you a comment we had the other day. There's a story of the four wolves that were put into Yellowstone Park and changed the ecosystem cause Yellowstone had a river problem. So they injected four wolves into the ecosystem. Turns out, the deer went away, things started growing, and the whole ecosystem became so much more sustainable. Not that I'm trying to get at who's the wolves, but balancing and coexistence is the point here. You can live with wolves and not get eaten, unless you're their target. But there's a balancing act on ecosystems. And to have a good, sustainable ecosystem you need to have freshness, certainly standards and new blood, new ideas. What is your vision on coexistence because this is one of those things that we're seeing right now emerging, less about my project's better than your project. You're seeing a lot more collaboration going across communities. >> Correct. >> More than ever. >> A hundred percent agree. I think the fundamental problem has always been only the technical geeks understand the differences between the projects. And then the layer of abstraction in people, whether it's management or media, they start looking and feeling as if they are competing. I'll give you an example. In the data plane acceleration kit, we have projects like FDIO, DPDK, Iovisor, OVS, there's lots of projects there. And people like, oh my god, there's so many. Well, guess what? One of them is a kernel driven thing, other one is a set of libraries, third one builds on the libraries. So that level of understanding is missing. >> John: Interplay between all the projects. >> It's interplay. >> Peter Burris: And dependency. >> And dependencies. So that's one of the things that we want to highlight here, very significantly this year in terms of just sheer education. Because part of the coexistence is understanding each other. If we understand each other on what role each of the projects play, it's easy. Whether it's Linux Foundation or outside. So that's the first step. The second step is if they're complimentary, I want to take the next step and test them out for inter-operability. Because now you have put two pieces together. Remember, networking was a fully black box five years ago. >> Literally. >> We took it, blew it up, fragmented it, dis-segregated it, and now we got to pull... And we got tremendous innovation out of each of these layers. We were very successful on the whole disaggregation and SDN disruption. Not it's time to put it into a production ready solution. As we put those things in, we'll see that harmonization is going to play a big role. >> Arpit great to have you on here, sharing the insight. Always great to get the inner workings plus a great perspective on the industry trends and congratulations on your success and we'll continue to follow you and all your work in the networking area, all the projects Stu Miniman and team. We're going to continue to see you at the Open Networking Summit, among all the great shows. >> Thank you very much. >> Alright. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, live coverage here in San Francisco, as part of our exclusive two day coverage of the inaugural Cisco DevNet Create event. I'm John here with Peter Burris, we'll be back with more after this short break, stay with us. >> Hi I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston Massachusetts, it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. You're watching The CUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program Darrell Jordan-Smith who's the Vice President of Telecommunications at Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here thank you >> All right so Darrell last year at the show you know the telcos were like all in force. I got to interview Verizon. We're going to have Beth who was on the keynote stage on Monday on our coverage tomorrow. I know they're a Red Hat customer. When I hear at Red Hat summit, there were some really big telcos that are red hat customers. So to tell us why telco and OpenStack you know go so well together these days? >> Well telcos are looking for a open source for innovation. They need to change the way that they deliver services today and modernize their network infrastructure to become more agile, and a lot of them are doing that because of 5G, the next generation of services that they will be deploying over their network infrastructure. They can't do that unless they have an agile infrastructure fabric and an agile software capability to deliver those applications over those networks. >> All right well there's a lot to dig into yet. Let's start with NFV was the use case last year. Well 5G IOT definitely want to get into though but my understanding, I simplified it. NFV is just how the telcos can help deliver via software services they have. I mean think about how your set-top box, I can get channels and I can get certain programming. Is that kind of what you see, and how do they do their business model? >> Yeah traditionally, they bought appliances, hardware specific appliances. They put them in network operation centers and many thousands of those around the world. In the US there's tens of thousands of them. They're really moving more to a software based model where they don't necessarily need to buy a fixed appliance with its own silicone. They're going with commercial off-the-shelf x86 based technology and they're actually deploying that in what I call next generation data centers around Open Compute platform being an architecture, where you're looking at storage, compute, networking in a scalable fashion using open source technologies to deploy that in at massive scale. >> Very different from you think about like cloud might be a place where you have services run but the telcos are pushing services with their software out to their consumers. >> Yeah they're changing the core network infrastructure to support that and at the mobile edge in these network operation centers at the edge, they're making those more agile as well in order to push as many services out closely to the customer but also to aggregate content and data that their customers would acquire. So for example, you take a video clip on your phone, there's no point in storing that in the core of the network. You want to maybe store that at the edge, where maybe some of your friends would share it at that point in time, more efficient ways of drive that. >> I wonder if you can expand a little bit. That that term edge because we hear is that the edge of the network? Is that a mobile device? Is that a sensor for IOT in the telecom world? Is it all of the above? >> Well a lot of people use it is all the above but in the context I'm using it, it's at the edge of the network. It's not the device. That is a whole separate set of conversations, and things reach a very IOT-centric. At the moment, the telecommunications companies want to make the edge more efficient. They want to build clouds around the edge. They want to aggregate all those different clouds, and they want to build agile based infrastructure. So similarly to the way that Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google deliver their services today, they need to get into that space in order to be agile enough to develop and deploy their next generation of applications and services. >> So at this point OpenStack in its evolution with this customer vertical, it seems like we're not only talking about a cloud but maybe a cloud of clouds. >> Yes absolutely, I mean telcos again, they typically have one of everything. They are looking at decoupled solutions in terms of their network-based infrastructure. They want to be able to manage every layer of that infrastructure independently of the other layers in order to drive maximum flexibility and agility into their infrastructure but also so they don't get locked in to any one particular vendor. That's a big, big theme in the telco space. >> So you use the words agility and flexibility. So I in a previous lifetime, I did work with some telecom providers and they were not known for those words of agility and flexibility. We're in a world now with open source, with CICD, we talked about upgradability, a lot of the talk here at OpenStack is about manageability and flexibility and building, putting containers on top. Maybe we can go there next but do you, as you work with your customers and partners in the telecom space. It seems like they've had to have a cultural shift. I see a lot of people from the carriers here, right. They're as long haired and shaggy, and barefoot as any other engineer here at OpenStack summit. Has there been a real cultural shift inside telecom to accomplish this? >> Yeah, there's a real cultural shift that's ongoing. It's got a ways to go. The telcos themselves are engineeringly orientated. So they traditionally have come from an environment where we'll build it and customers will come. Now they're looking at we need to build it quicker and faster in order to attract customers, get them to come and view our services, get them addicted to a certain degree. Maybe the wrong word but to our content. So building sticky services, trying to reduce the churn they have in their business, driving innovation through open source because I think they've realized that innovation isn't necessarily within their own company. It sits elsewhere so which is the new Uber as it were? Which is new Airbnb? What is the new WhatsApp-based application? They want to create a network infrastructure that's flexible enough with all of those attributes through API so those companies can develop innovative next-generation content and services over their network infrastructure, in order to attract and make services sticky for their customers. >> Darrell, I wonder if you can speak to the complexity of the solutions in the telco space? Last year we spoke to Verizon, and they love what they have but they had to choose some glass, walk over some hot coals to be able to get the solution together. These are big complicated solutions. We've talked in general about OpenStack, and trying to simplify some of the complexity but can you speak to some of the how long it takes to roll these out and some of the effort involved for the telcos? >> Well it's it's sort of a walk, a cruel walk run process to a lot of that because A working with open source is very different than what they traditionally have done, and as you mentioned earlier, traditionally they'll buy an application through our appliance. They'll take nine months to deploy in all their centers. Then another three to six months later, they might switch it off. In the software agile world, they've got to condense that sort of 12 to 18 month period down to maybe three or four weeks. They may stand up a service for an event like the Olympics and then take it down after the Olympics. So there's a lot of complexity and change in the way that they need to deliver those services, and that complexity isn't trivial. So it involves delivering quality of service through the deployment of next generation network infrastructure because they are regulated companies. So they've got to maintain that quality of service in order to be able to bill, and meet the regulations that they they have to adhere to in the markets that they operate their network infrastructure. Very different from the Googles, the Facebooks of the world. They don't have that sort of regulation over their head. The telcos do so they have a level of discipline that they need to achieve in terms of availability of their network infrastructure, the availability of their services, the availability of their applications, and that links into a whole quality of service experience for their customers, and linked into their operation systems support, into their billing system and the list goes on, and on and on. So what we found at Red Hat is that, that is not trivial, that is hard, and a lot of the telcos are very engineeringly oriented. It's great working with them because they really understand the difficulties, and the fact that this is particularly hard. They also know that they want to build it and own it, and understand it themselves, because it's their business model. To them, the network is an asset. It's not something that they can just outsource to someone else, that doesn't necessarily understand that same degree of that asset. So they want to get their heads around that. >> So they need that reliability. From the eyes of a service provider how mature is OpenStack right now? Is it in production? Can they trust it? We're a few more than a few years into the OpenStack evolution so where are we in deployment? >> That, number of operators are in deployment. You mentioned one on a few months ago like Verizon. >> Stu: Yeah, AT&T is on stage. >> Absolutely, AT&T-- >> Deutsche Telekom, the headlines sponsored the event. >> Exactly, I mean, and what they're doing is they're starting very pragmatically. They're looking at specific services, and they're building slowly a service upon service upon service so they go from a crawl to walking, then to a run. I think, what we're seeing in OpenStack is not if but when these guys will deploy at mass scale. We're beginning now to see a general acceptance that this is a methodology and or a technology that they can deploy and will deploy in the NFE context. The other thing that's occurring in the space is they're looking at traditional IT workloads. So a telco-based cloud if you want to use that terminology is just as capable of running IT-based workloads and services as well. So a number of them are looking at their own enterprise and running those environments. Some of them are partnering with some of our partners to build OpenStack public cloud instances. So they want to try and attract services to that environment as well. >> It's interesting you point that out. There's been that ebbing flow of can the telco players be cloud as John pointed out. I worked in telecommunications back in the '90s. Agile and fast was not the thing of the day. One of the big companies who had bought a cloud company just sold off lots of their data centers. Do they feel that they're going to compete against the Amazon, Microsoft, Googles of the world? Do they think they'll be service providers? Where do they see is their natural fit in the cloud ecosystem? >> So my role is on a global basis. In North America, they don't want to, I don't think they feel they can compete in the way that you were intimating in that regard. However, where they do think they can compete and since we're going to probably talk about 5G and IOT, that is the area where they see public cloud applications and services being developed. So they're looking at the insurance industry, the automotive industry, the manufacturing industry, and creating an environment where those applications can be built to many many thousands of millions of devices connected to them. So I think the definition of in North America, of a public cloud infrastructure is going to evolve in that direction. In other markets such as Latin America and in Europe, some of the telecommunications companies believe that they can be competitive in that space. So more recently, Orange announced that they're working with OpenStack to deploy public cloud. Telefonica, Deutsche Telekom, China Mobile, America Movil, they're all using OpenStack to try and enter that specific market space. >> Okay, please talk to us about the 5G angles here. Obviously like Mobile World Congress, it was like be number one conversation. When we went to the Open Networking Summit, it was there. You're the first person to talk about it that I heard I didn't, maybe I missed it in one of the keynotes but you know none of our interviews has come out yet. So how does that fit into the OpenStack picture? >> So 5G is the reason why telcos are building NFEI, that they were NFE because they realize that to connect all of those devices to their network-based infrastructure, they need to do it intelligently, they need to do it at the edge, and they need to have a high degree of flexibility and agility to their network-based infrastructure to create an innovation environment for application developers to connect all those devices. So we talked about smart cars as a good example around 5G. You need low latency, you need the high availability, you need to be reliable, you need to provide all of that network infrastructure as an example plus you need a portfolio of developers that are going to create all sorts of different applications for those vehicles that we driving around on the street. So that without 5G, that does not happen. You're not, you know some metropolitan areas, the amount of connectivity that you have access to in terms of the traditional cloud-based access networking infrastructure doesn't facilitate the amount of density that 5G will actually facilitate. So you need to be able to change the basis in which you're building that infrastructure to lower the cost of the network in terms of being able to drive that. >> All right and I'm curious I think about the global reach we were just talking about. Usually, the global reach of a new technology like 5G lags a little bit in the rest of the world compared to Western Europe and North America. >> Well, I think in Asia, 5G is, if I look at what they're trying to do, the leading vendors ZTE, Samsung, Huawei, they're heavily invested in 5G-based infrastructure, and they don't have, their operators in those part of the world don't have an awful lot of legacy-based infrastructure to be able to have to replace. They can get there a lot faster. The other thing is with 5G, for them, the applications and services in the way that people experience network-based access or Internet if for want of another word is very different than way that maybe we experience it here in the US or in Europe. So I think you're going to see different applications and different business models evolve in different markets in Asia than you would say here in North America. In North America, I think that it's going to take a lot of the operators different business models to look at maybe some of the higher order of applications and services that drive stickiness for their own infrastructure and network services but also some of the more advanced applications like I mentioned smart cars or smart homes, or smart cities or energy or better ways of delivering products in terms of distribution to your home, those those types of applications and services we won't necessarily in some of those other markets be there and similarly for Europe. >> All right Darrell Jordan-Smith, really appreciate you joining us, giving us all the updates on telco, how it fits with OpenStack. Jon Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage here from the OpenStack summit 2017 in Boston. You're watching The CUBE (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Santa Clara, California it's theCube. Covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation. (bright music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Open Networking Summit 2017 put on by The Linux Foundation. We're excited to have a special guest host for the next two days, Scott Raynovich. He's a founder and principal analyst at Futuriom, which hasn't really launched. It's launching in a couple of-- How many days? >> Ten days. >> Ten days. So you heard it first here on theCUBE. We love to launch companies on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> So, Scott, looking forward to working together. >> I'm happy to be on theCUBE once again. >> So, last time when you co-hosted on the cube, it was here at ONS in Santa Clara, but I think it was 2014. >> Scott: It was at least two years ago, maybe three years ago, I think you're right. >> Amazing. So what are you looking forward to? You've been covering this space for a long time. A lot of talk about 5G and IoT and software-defined finally being here. From your seat, what are you looking at? What are you excited about? >> Well, I'm here to check out the buzz, to see if this stuff is actually happening. I think we heard this morning that it has happened. We heard from Martin Casado, the founder of Nicira, one of the SDN pioneers. And he went through the whole evolution of the product, how it's now hit one billion dollars of revenue. >> Jeff: That's pretty real. >> It's not bad. >> A billion, a billion run rate. >> And we heard from AT&T, which is deploying a open software-based network through the entire AT&T network going from 30% software-defined last year to 55% is the target this year. That's real, that's happening. We heard from Google. Again, one of the pioneers of software-defined networking, how they built their entire network on software-defined technologies, open-source. They continue to layer in new elements of software-defined networking and building it out into the WAN, building out these kind of edge data centers. So, it's happening across the board. There's no doubt. >> And then we've got this pesky thing called IoT that's coming down the pipe at a rapid-- I think at Mobile World Congress, as is always the case, a lot of chat about the new handsets, and 5G handsets, but really from our perspective, we think it's much more exciting to talk about the IoT impact, as all these connected devices are running around, how they share data, edge computing, cloud computing. It's pretty interesting times. >> Absolutely, and what's really interesting, I think, I'm focused right now on looking at industrial IoT. How does a car, auto manufacturing factory use sensors and devices to plug data into the cloud and then meld that with artificial intelligence, that we want to throw in another buzzword, right? >> Jeff: Right, right. machine learning, deep learning, there's no shortage. What happens with artificial intelligence working with The Internet of Things and sensors to automate anything from controlling the temperature in a factory to telling your car where to drive. So, lot's of stuff going on. >> So, any particular announcements over the last couple days you think we should highlight? >> Well, this morning's big announcement. AT&T, you know they announced a white box live production, white box system, I don't know if everybody knows what that means, but basically, instead of taking proprietary networking hardware, they use the chips and they used an ODM, Outsource manufacturer to create their own boxes and load their software. You know this new open source stuff called ONAP. And that's an interesting development, Jeff, because it means the operator, the network operator, is now become their own integrator. You know they used to go to Ericsson and Cisco and Juniper to help them integrate these technologies. It looks like their becoming more of the integrator of themselves and their buying the pieces of what they need and gluing it all together, much the way Google built their network. So, that's an interesting trend and the fact that they announced today that this white box system is live in production is significant. >> So, we'll have Dave Ward on later today from Cisco, many time Cube alumni. He's a great guest. But as you look at it kind of from the incumbent's point of view, obviously they have a huge install base, big sales forces, a lot of resources to bear. How are they playing this kind of open source piece of it? How are they leveraging the proprietary stuff they have, distribution and sales, but still kind of being part of the party and not being excluded from all the excitement that's going on? >> Totally, totally. Well, first of all, they absolutely have to focus on software. Because the hardware is becoming commoditized and you can go buy these merchant silicon chips that are fantastic and go gigabits and you plug them in. So, emphasis on software. And then they have to make this transition to integrate more open source technologies. But, you know, the operators are still going to need partners, right? They're still going to need people to help them. And, you know, I liken it to when you go to buy a car. You drive it off the lot but you still got all this service and support, right? You got the maintenance program. You got to bring the car back in. You buy a warranty. There's a lot of services that go along with the installation of the hardware and the software. >> Alright Scott, well it should be a great couple days. Thanks for coming down from the plains of Montana to join us-- >> Well, they're mountains actually. >> here in Santa Clara. Oh, you're in the mountainy part. Oh, that's right. A lot of talk after the basketball game last night of how eastern Washington is so different than the west so I had kind of Spokane in my head, I guess. >> We were kind of going for the Zags and that didn't happen. >> A little bit too many whistles, I think, on both sides last night. Kind of slowed the whole game down but that's a whole different conversation. He's Scott Raynovich. We're here at ONS 2017 for two days of coverage. You're watching theCUBE. I'm Jeff Frick. We'll be back with our next guest after this short break. Thanks for watching. >> Scott: Great (bright music) >> Narrator: Robert Herjavec >> Interviewer: People obviously know you from--

>> Narrator: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube. Covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought you to by the Linux Foundation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with The Cube, along with Scott Raynovich. We're at the Open Networking Summit 2017. Linux Foundation has taken over this show a couple years ago, it's a lot of excitement. A lot of people would say that the networking was kind of the last piece of the puzzle to get software defined, to get open. We're really excited to kick off the show with a really great representative of SDN and everything that it represents. Martin Casado, now with Andreessen Horowitz, Martin, great to see you. >> Hey, I'm super happy to be here. >> So, coming off your keynote, you said it was ten years ago almost to the day that you guys started the adventure called Nicira, which kind of put us where we are now. >> You know, you and I are growing old together here. It has been a decade. I've actually been on The Cube throughout, so I'm very happy to be here. Thanks so much for the intro. >> Absolutely. So, what were your takeaways, Scott, on that keynote? >> It was great, we had some great stuff this morning. Not only was Martin giving the history of Nicira and the origins of SDN and talking about how you made it successful after all these challenges but we also had AT&T unveiling a new incredible white box program, where they're running open networking on their entire network now, so, it was kind of a, I thought, a big day in general to show how far we've gone, right? And you talked a little about that. >> Yeah, listen having come over here since the inception of ONS, what strikes me is, it originally, it was so speculative, it was kind of like wouldn't it be nice and you had all these dreamers. It was largely academics or people from the CTO's office and if you compare those first meetings to now, we're in the industry proper now, right? If you come and you look around, there's huge representation from Telcos, from vendors, from customers, and academics. So, I think we've seen a massive maturation in general. >> I just think I could make a mash-up of all the times we've had you on the Cube table where it's coming! We're almost here! >> Martin: And we're like it's here! >> It's here! But now John Donovan said that their goal, I don't know if it's in the short term or the very near term, is to be over 50 percent software defined, so I guess that's a pretty good definition of being here. >> Yeah, I think so. I think that we're seeing, and I think that the AT&T talk was fantastic, but I think you're seeing this across the industry, which is large customers that have been traditionally conservative, have these targets, and they're actually implementing. I mean, it's one thing to have something on the roadmap. And it's one thing to have something planned. It's another thing to actually start seeing it roll out. >> Jeff: Right. >> Again, this is a process. A lot of my talk was like, how long does it take for an industry to mature? But now, there's many things you can point to that are very real, and I think that was one great example of it. >> Well, the other thing I thought was great in your talk is you mapped out the 10 year journey and you said it so discounts often the hardest part which is changing behavior of the market. That is much harder than the technology and some of the other pieces. >> Right, exactly. So, take this from a technologist standpoint. I basically made a career on making fun of hardware. I'm like, software is so much faster than hardware, and hardware is so slow. But now if I stand back and take a long view, yeah, fine hardware's slower than software, but it's nothing compared to changing organizational behavior or consumer behavior and so, for me it was actually pretty humbling going through this last decade, because you realize that even if you have product market fit, and even if you have a good technical solution, there is a natural law of market physics that you have to overcome a moment of inertia that takes probably a decade, certainly five or six years. >> And that's before things like vendor viability, when you're trying to enter the enterprise space, or legacy infrastructure which is just not getting ripped out, you know? So many hurdles. >> Strictly consumer behavior, right? Consumers are used to doing one thing. I always talk to new entrepreneurs and I say the following: You have two jobs as an entrepreneur. Job number one is you identify a constituency. That constituency wakes up, they think about everything in the world, but they don't think about your thing, so job number one is to get them to think about your thing. That's difficult. It's like Inception. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio Inception. You're putting an idea in somebody's head and then the second thing that you have to do is you have to attach a value to that. So, just because they have the idea doesn't mean that they actually value it. So, you actually have to say, listen, this is worth X amount of dollars. And it turns out that this takes a long time and that's why market category creation is such an effort. That's why it's so neat, we're standing here and we're seeing that this has actually happened, which is fantastic. >> You talked about Nicira, which today, correct me if I'm wrong, it's still the biggest success story in SDN in terms of a startup, you know, 1.3 billion. You talked about different iterations, I think you said, six or seven product iterations and being frustrated at many levels. Did you ever sit there one day and think, "uh, we're going to fail." >> Martin: (laughs) >> Was failure a common- >> Oh man, I don't think there wasn't a quarter when we're like "we're dead." (laughs) By the way, that's every startup. I mean, I'm on- >> Scott: That's just normal, right? >> There's six or seven boards right now, I mean every startup has this oscillator. When we started at Nicira, it was in 2007. And in 2008, the nuclear winter set in, if you remember. The whole economy collapsed, and I think that alone could've killed us. So absolutely, and all startups who do that. But one thing that I never lost faith in was that the problem was real. I wasn't sure we had the right solution or the right approach, and we iterated on that, but I knew there was a real problem here. And when that is kind of a guiding star and a guiding light, we just kept going towards that. I think that's why ultimately we ended up solving the problem we set out to, it was just we took a very crooked path to get there. >> What was the feedback mechanism? Was it like just talking to as many customers as possible or? You talked about the market fit versus the industry fit, how did you gather that information? >> I think in core technical infrastructure, the strategic leaders of a startup have to be piped into the nervous system of both the technology trends and the product market fit. Technology trends because, technology trends provide the momentum for what's going to get adopted and what it looks like. And the product market fit is what is the customer problems that need to be solved. And so I think it's really critical to be deeply into both of those things, which is why things like ONS are so important, because they do kind of find a convergence of both of that. What do customers need but also where's the technology going. >> And it's really neat, that's kind of like the platform versus the application. You're going down the new platform strategy, right? Which is the software-defined networking, but at the end of the day, people buy solutions to their problems that they need to get fixed today. No one's buying a new platform today. >> Yeah, so there's two issues, you're right. There's the technical directions and then the specific applications for that, and one thing I talked about and I really believe is we focus a little bit too much on the technology platform, how those are shifting, early on and less on what the customers need. I don't think you want to 100% flip that, you need to focus on both, but I think that they both should be even-handed. What do customers need and then what is the right technical approach to get there. >> And you also stuck on a couple of really interesting points about decisions. You're going to make a lot mistakes going down the road. But you said, you got to make two or three really good ones and that will make up for a whole lot of little missteps along the path. >> So in retrospect, and this was actually a big a-ha! for me and maybe it's obvious to other people, but this was a big a-ha! to me, even as I was putting together this talk. So, the way venture capital works is you make a lot of bets, but only one in ten will actually produce returns, so you're kind of swinging for the fences and almost all the returns comes from the Googles and the Facebooks and the Ubers and so forth. That's just how it is. Now, as a venture capitalist, you can have a portfolio, you can place ten of those bets in parallel. Going back through all of the slides and everything we've done, I hadn't realized before how similar doing a startup is, which is you make a lot of mistakes in startups, but a few key decisions really drive the strategy. Does that make sense? I always thought maybe you need to do 50/50, or maybe even 80/20, 80% correct and 20 wrong, but it's not that. There's a few key decisions that make it correct, and so the key is you're straddling these two pieces of human nature. On one side, you want to stick with something, you want to make sure that you're not sticking too long with something that isn't going to work, and then the other side you don't want to get rid of something before it's going to work. You want to be both honest with yourself when it's not working and you want to be patient. And if you do that long enough I think that you will find one of the critical decisions to drive the startup forward. >> Yeah, one interesting thing you said, you arrived at a conclusion that the products and individual applications were more important than the platform, and that kind of runs contrary to the meme that you have now where the Harvard Business Review is saying "build a platform, build the next Airbnb." And what you're saying is kind of contrary to that. >> Right, so I went into this with a path from Mindframe, if you look at our original slide deck, which I showed, it was a platform. Now, I think that there's two aspects for this, I think in SDN specifically, there is a reason technically why a platform doesn't work, and the reason for that is networking is about distributed state management, which is very specific to applications. So it's hard for a platform to register that, so technically, I think there's reason for that. From a startup perspective, customers don't buy platforms, customers buy products. I think if you focus on the product, you build a viable business, and then for stickiness you turn that into a platform. But most customers don't know what to do with a platform because that's still a value-add. Products before platforms, I think, is a pretty good adage to live by. >> But design your product with a platform point of view. That way so you can make that switch when that day comes and now you're just adding applications, applications. So, I want to shift gears a little bit just kind of about open source and ONS specifically. We hear time and time again about how open source is such an unbelievable driver of innovation. Think of how your story might have changed if there wasn't, and maybe there was, I wasn't there, something here and how does an open source foundation help drive the faster growth of this space? >> So, I actually think, and I'm probably in the minority of this, but I've always thought that open source does not tend to innovation. That's not like the value of open source is innovation. If you look at most successful open source projects, traditionally they've actually entered mature markets. Linux entered Unix, which is, so I'd say the innovation was Unix not Linux. I would say, Android went into Palm, and Blackberry, and iPhone. I would say MySQL went into Oracle. And so, I think the power and beauty of open source is more on the proliferation of technology and more on the customer adoption, and less on the innovation. But what it's doing is it's driving probably the biggest shift in buying that we've ever seen in IT. So, IT is a 4 trillion dollar market that's this massive market, and right now, in order to sell something, you pretty much have to make it open source or offer it as a service. And the people that buy open source, they do it very different than you traditionally do it. It allows them to get educated on it, it allows them to use it, they get a community as part of it. And that shift from a traditional direct vendor model to that model means a lot of new entrants can come in and offer new things. And so, I think it's very important to have open source, I think it's changing the way people buy things, I think building communities like this is a very critical thing to do, but I do think it's more about go-to-market and actually less about innovation. >> So what does it mean for all these proprietary networking vendors? I mean, are they dead now? >> No, here's actually another really interesting thing, which is I think customers these days like to buy things open source or as a service. Those are the two consumption models. Now, for shipping software, I think shipping closed source software, I think those days are over or they're coming to the end. Like, that's done. But, customers will view, whether it's on-prem or off-prem, an appliance as a service. So, let's say I create MartinHub. So, it's my online service, MartinHub, people like MartinHub. I can sell them that on-premise. Now, MartinHub could be totally closed source, right? Like, Amazon is totally closed source, right? But people still consume it. Because it's a service, they think it's open. And if they want something on-prem, I can deploy that and they still consume it as a service. So, I think the proprietary vendors need to move from shipping closed source software to offering a service, but I think that service can just be on-prem. And I think prem senior shift happens, so I don't think there's going to be like a massive changing of the guard. I do think we're going to see new entrants. I think we're going to see a shift in the market share, but this isn't like a thermonuclear detonation that's going to kill the dinosaurs. (laughs) >> I want to get your take, Martin, on the next big wave that we're seeing which is 5G, and really 5G as an enabler for IoT. So, you've been playing in this space for a while. As you see this next thing getting ready to crest, what are some of your thoughts, also sitting in a VC chair, you probably see all kinds of people looking to take advantage of this thing. >> That's funny. I'm actually going to answer a different question. (laughs) Which is, I-- >> Scott: That's cause 5G doesn't exist yet, right? >> No, I love the question, but it's like, this is really a space that's really near and dear to my heart, which is cellular. And I've actually started looking at it personally, and even in the United States alone, there are something like 20 million people that are under-connected. And I think the only practical way to connect them is to use cellular. And so I've been looking at this problem for about a year, I've actually created a non-profit in it that brings cellular connectivity to indigenous communities. Like, Native American tribes, and so forth. >> Jeff: As the ultimate last mile. >> As the ultimate last mile. Which is interesting, like 5G is fantastic, but if you look at the devices available to these people that have coverage, I think LTE is actually sufficient. So what I'm excited about, and I'm sorry about answering a different question, but it's such a critical point, what I'm excited about is, it used to be 150 thousand dollars to set up a cell tower. Using SDN, I can set up an LTE cell tower for about five thousand dollars and I can use existing fiber at schools as backhaul, so I think now we have these viable deployment models that are relatively cheap that we can actually connect the underprivileged with. And I don't think it's about the next new cellular technology, I think it's actually SDN's impact on the existing one. And that's an area of course that's very personal to me. >> All right, love it. It is as you said, it's repackaging stuff in a slightly different way leveraging the technology to do a new solution. >> And it's truly SDN. If you look at this, there's an LTE stack all in software running on proprietary hardware. I'm sorry, on general purpose hardware that's actually being controlled from Amazon. And again, a factor of ten reduction in the price to set up a cell tower. >> Jeff: Awesome. >> What about the opportunity with Internet of Things and connecting the things with networks' artificial intelligence? >> So, as a venture capitalist, when it comes to networking I'm interested in two areas. One area is networking moving from the machine connecting machines to connecting APIs. So, we're moving up a layer. So we've got microservices, now we need a network to connect those and there're different types of end points, and they require different types of connectivity. But I'm also interested in networks moving out. So, it used to be connecting a bunch of machines but now there's all these new problem domains, the Internet is moving out to interact with the physical world. It's driving cars. It's doing manufacturing, it's doing mining, it's doing forestry. As we reach out to these more mature industries, and different deployment environments, we have to rethink the type of networks to build. So, that's definitely an area that I'm looking at from the startup space. >> What kind of activity's there? I mean, you have guys coming in every day pitching new automated connect-the-car software. >> I think for me it's the most exciting time in IT, right? It's like, the last, say ten fifteen years of the Internet has been the World Wide Web. Which is kind of information processing, it's information in, information out. But because of recent advances in sensors due to the cellphone, the ubiquity of cellphones, the recent advances in AI, the recent advances in robotics, that Internet is now growing hands and eyes and ears. And it's manipulating the physical world. Any industry that's out there, whether it's driving, whether it's farming, is now being automated, so we see all the above. People are coming in, they're changing the way we eat food, they're changing the way we drive cars, they're changing the way we fly airplanes. So, it's almost like IT is the new control layer for the world. >> All right, Martin, thanks again for stopping by. Unfortunately we got to leave it there, we could go all day I'm sure. I'll come up with more good questions for you. >> All right, I really appreciate you taking the time. It's good to see both of you. Thanks very much. >> Absolutely, all right, he's Martin Casado from Andreessen Horowitz. I'm Jeff Frick, along with Scott Raynovich. You're watching The Cube from Open Networking Summit 2017. We'll be back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (mellow music) >> Announcer: Robert Herjavec. >> Man: People obviously know you from Shark Tank, but the Herjavec group has been really laser fo--