>> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Welcome to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We are here with Arpit Joshipura, GM of Networking, Edge, IoT for the Linux Foundation. Arpit, great to see you again, welcome back to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you, thank you. Happy to be here. >> So obviously, we love the Linux Foundation. We've been following all the events; we've chatted in the past about networking. Computer storage and networking just doesn't seem to go away with cloud and on-premise hybrid cloud, multicloud, but open-source software continues to surpass expectations, growth, geographies outside the United States and North America, just overall, just greatness in software. Everything's an abstraction layer now; you've got Kubernetes, Cloud Native- so many good things going on with software, so congratulations. >> Well thank you. No, I think we're excited too. >> So you guys got a big event coming up in China: OSS, Open Source Summit, plus KubeCon. >> Yep. >> A lot of exciting things, I want to talk about that in a second. But I want to get your take on a couple key things. Edge and IoT, deep learning and AI, and networking. I want to kind of drill down with you. Tell us what's the updates on the projects around Linux Foundation. >> Okay. >> The exciting ones. I mean, we know Cloud Native CNCF is going to take up more logos, more members, keeps growing. >> Yep. >> Cloud Native clearly has a lot of opportunity. But the classic in the set, certainly, networking and computer storage is still kicking butt. >> Yeah. So, let me start off by Edge. And the fundamental assumption here is that what happened in the cloud and core is going to move to the Edge. And it's going to be 50, 100, 200 times larger in terms of opportunity, applications, spending, et cetera. And so what LF did was we announced a very exciting project called Linux Foundation Edge, as an umbrella, earlier in January. And it was announced with over 60 founding members, right. It's the largest founding member announcement we've had in quite some time. And the reason for that is very simple- the project aims at unifying the fragmented edge in IoT markets. So today, edge is completely fragmented. If you talk to clouds, they have a view of edge. Azure, Amazon, Baidu, Tencent, you name it. If you talk to the enterprise, they have a view of what edge needs to be. If you talk to the telcos, they are bringing the telecom stack close to the edge. And then if you talk to the IoT vendors, they have a perception of edge. So each of them are solving the edge problems differently. What LF Edge is doing, is it is unifying a framework and set of frameworks, that allow you to create a common life cycle management framework for edge computing. >> Yeah. >> Now the best part of it is, it's built on five exciting technologies. So people ask, "You know, why now?" So, there are five technologies that are converging at the same time. 5G, low latency. NFV, network function virtualization, so on demand. AI, so predictive analytics for machine learning. Container and microservices app development, so you can really write apps really fast. And then, hardware development: TPU, GPU, NPU. Lots of exciting different size and shapes. All five converging; put it close to the apps, and you have a whole new market. >> This is, first of all, complicated in the sense of... cluttered, fragmented, shifting grounds, so it's an opportunity. >> It's an opportunity. >> So, I get that- fragmented, you've got the clouds, you've got the enterprises, and you've got the telcos all doing their own thing. >> Yep. >> So, multiple technologies exploding. 5G, Wi-Fi 6, a bunch of other things you laid out, >> Mhmm. >> all happening. But also, you have all those suppliers, right? >> Yes. >> And, so you have different manufacturers-- >> And different layers. >> So it's multiple dimensions to the complexity. >> Correct, correct. >> What are you guys seeing, in terms of, as a solution, what's motivating the founding members; when you say unifying, what specifically does that mean? >> What that means is, the entire ecosystem from those markets are coming together to solve common problems. And I always sort of joke around, but it's true- the common problems are really the plumbing, right? It's the common life cycle management, how do you start, stop, boot, load, log, you know, things like that. How do you abstract? Now in the Edge, you've 400, 500 interfaces that comes into an IoT or an edge device. You know, Zigbee, Bluetooth, you've got protocols like M2T; things that are legacy and new. Then you have connectivity to the clouds. Devices of various forms and shapes. So there's a lot of end by end problems, as we call it. So, the cloud players. So for LF Edge for example, Tencent and Baidu and the cloud leaders are coming together and saying, "Let's solve it once." The industrial IoT player, like Dynamic, OSIsoft, they're coming in saying, "Let's solve it once." The telcos- AT&T, NTT, they're saying "Let's solve it once. And let's solve this problem in open-source. Because we all don't need to do it, and we'll differentiate on top." And then of course, the classic system vendors that support these markets are all joining hands. >> Talk about the business pressure real quick. I know, you look at, say, Alibaba for instance, and the folks you mentioned, Tencent, in China. They're perfecting the edge. You've got videos at the edge; all kinds of edge devices; people. >> Correct. >> So there's business pressures, as well. >> The business pressure is very simple. The innovation has to speed up. The cost has to go down. And new apps are coming up, so extra revenue, right? So because of these five technologies I mentioned, you've got the top killer apps in edge are anything that is, kind of, video but not YouTube. So, anything that the video comes from 360 venues, or drones, things like that. Plus, anything that moves, but that's not a phone. So things like connected cars, vehicles. All of those are edge applications. So in LF Edge, we are defining edge as an application that requires 20 milliseconds or less latency. >> I can't wait for someone to define- software define- "edge". Or, it probably is defined. A great example- I interviewed an R&D engineer at VMware yesterday in San Francisco, it was at the RADIO event- and we were just riffing on 5G, and talking about software at the edge. And one of the advances >> Yes. >> that's coming is splicing the frequency so that you can put software in the radios at the antennas, >> Correct. Yeah. >> so you can essentially provision, in real time. >> Correct, and that's a telco use case, >> Yeah. >> so our projects at the LF Edge are EdgeX Foundry, Akraino, Edge Virtualization Engine, Open Glossary, Home Edge. There's five and growing. And all of these software projects can allow you to put edge blueprints. And blueprints are really reference solutions for smart cities, manufacturing, telcos, industrial gateways, et cetera et cetera. So, lots of-- >> It's kind of your fertile ground for entrepreneurship, too, if you think about it, >> Correct; startups are huge. >> because, just the radio software that splices the radio spectrum is going to potentially maybe enable a service provider market, and towers, right? >> Correct, correct. >> Own my own land, I can own the tower and rent it out, one radio. >> Yep. >> So, business model innovations also an opportunity, >> It's a huge-- >> not just the business pressure to have an edge, but-- >> Correct. So technology, business, and market pressures. All three are colliding. >> Yeah, perfect storm. >> So edge is very exciting for us, and we had some new announcements come out in May, and more exciting news to come out in June, as well. >> And so, going back to Linux Foundation. If I want to learn more. >> LFEdge.org. >> That's kind of the CNCF of edge, if you will, right? Kind of thing. >> Yeah. It's an umbrella with all the projects, and that's equivalent to the CNCF, right. >> Yeah. >> And of course it's a huge group. >> So it's kind of momentum. 64 founding members-- >> Huge momentum. Yeah, now we are at 70 founding members, and growing. >> And how long has it been around? >> The umbrella has been around for about five months; some of the projects have been around for a couple of years, as they incubate. >> Well let us know when the events start kicking in. We'll get theCUBE down there to cover it. >> Absolutely. >> Super exciting. Again, multiple dimensions of innovation. Alright, next topic, one of my favorites, is AI and deep learning. AI's great. If you don't have data you can't really make AI work; deep learning requires data. So this is a data conversation. What's going on in the Linux Foundation around AI and deep learning? >> Yeah. So we have a foundation called LF Deep Learning, as you know. It was launched last year, and since then we have significantly moved it forward by adding more members, and obviously the key here is adding more projects, right. So our goal in the LF Deep Learning Foundation is to bring the community of data scientists, researchers, entrepreneurs, academia, and users to collaborate. And create frameworks and platforms that don't require a PhD to use. >> So a lot of data ingestion, managing data, so not a lot of coding, >> Platforms. >> more data analyst, and/or applications? >> It's more, I would say, platforms for use, right? >> Yeah. >> So frameworks that you can actually use to get business outcomes. So projects include Acumos, which is a machine learning framework and a marketplace which allows you to, sort of, use a lot of use cases that can be commonly put. And this is across all verticals. But I'll give you a telecom example. For example, there is a use case, which is drones inspecting base stations-- >> Yeah. >> And doing analytics for maintenance. That can be fed into a marketplace, used by other operators worldwide. You don't have to repeat that. And you don't need to understand the details of machine learning algorithms. >> Yeah. >> So we are trying to do that. There are projects that have been contributed from Tencent, Baidu, Uber, et cetera. Angel, Elastic Deep Learning, Pyro. >> Yeah. >> It's a huge investment for us. >> And everybody wins when there's contribution, because data's one of those things where if there's available, it just gets smarter. >> Correct. And if you look at deep learning, and machine learning, right. I mean obviously there's the classic definition; I won't go into that. But from our perspective, we look at data and how you can share the data, and so from an LF perspective, we have something called a CDLA license. So, think of an Apache for data. How do you share data? Because it's a big issue. >> Big deal. >> And we have solved that problem. Then you can say, "Hey, there's all these machine learning algorithms," you know, TensorFlow, and others, right. How can you use it? And have plugins to this framework? Then there's the infrastructure. Where do you run these machine learning? Like if you run it on edge, you can run predictive maintenance before a machine breaks down. If you run it in the core, you can do a lot more, right? So we've done that level of integration. >> So you're treating data like code. You can bring data to the table-- >> And then-- >> Apply some licensing best practices like Apache. >> Yes, and then integrate it with the machine learning, deep learning models, and create platforms and frameworks. Whether it's for cloud services, for sharing across clouds, elastic searching-- >> And Amazon does that in terms of they vertically integrate SageMaker, for instance. >> That's exactly right. >> So it's a similar-- >> And this is the open-source version of it. >> Got it- oh, that's awesome. So, how does someone get involved here, obviously developers are going to love this, but-- >> LF Deep Learning is the place to go, under Linux Foundation, similar to LF Edge, and CNCF. >> So it's not just developers. It's also people who have data, who might want to expose it in. >> Data scientists, databases, algorithmists, machine learning, and obviously, a whole bunch of startups. >> A new kind of developer, data developer. >> Right. Exactly. And a lot of verticals, like the security vertical, telecom vertical, enterprise verticals, finance, et cetera. >> You know, I've always said- you and I talked about this before, and I always rant on theCUBE about this- I believe that there's going to be a data development environment where data is code, kind of like what DevOps did with-- >> It's the new currency, yeah. >> It's the new currency. >> Yeah. Alright, so final area I want to chat with you before we get into the OSS China thing: networking. >> Yeah. >> Near and dear to your heart. >> Near and dear to my-- >> Networking's hot now, because if you bring IoT, edge, AI, networking, you've got to move things around-- >> Move things around, (laughs) right, so-- >> And you still need networking. >> So we're in the second year of the LF Networking journey, and we are really excited at the progress that has happened. So, projects like ONAP, OpenDaylight, Tungsten Fabric, OPNFV, FDio, I mean these are now, I wouldn't say household names, but business enterprise names. And if you've seen, pretty much all the telecom providers- almost 70% of the subscribers covered, enabled by the service providers, are now participating. Vendors are completely behind it. So we are moving into a phase which is really the deployment phase. And we are starting to see, not just PoCs [Proofs of Concept], but real deployments happening, some of the major carriers now. Very excited, you know, Dublin, ONAP's Dublin release is coming up, OPNFV just released the Hunter release. Lots of exciting work in Fido, to sort of connect-- >> Yeah. >> multiple projects together. So, we're looking at it, the big news there is the launch of what's called OVP. It's a compliance and verification program that cuts down the deployment time of a VNF by half. >> You know, it's interesting, Stu and I always talk about this- Stu Miniman, CUBE cohost with me- about networking, you know, virtualization came out and it was like, "Oh networking is going to change." It's actually helped networking. >> It helped networking. >> Now you're seeing programmable networks come out, you see Cisco >> And it's helped. >> doing a lot of things, Juniper as well, and you've got containers in Kubernetes right around the corner, so again, this is not going to change the need, it's going to- It's not going to change >> It's just a-- >> the desire and need of networking, it's going to change what networking is. How do you describe that to people? Someone saying, "Yeah, but tell me what's going on in networking? Virtualization, we got through that wave, now I've got the container, Kubernetes, service mesh wave, how does networking change? >> Yeah, so it's a four step process, right? The first step, as you rightly said, virtualization, moved into VMs. Then came disaggregation, which was enabled by the technology SDN, as we all know. Then came orchestration, which was last year. And that was enabled by projects like ONAP and automation. So now, all of the networks are automated, fully running, self healing, feedback closed control, all that stuff. And networks have to be automated before 5G and IoT and all of these things hit, because you're no longer talking about phones. You're talking about things that get connected, right. So that's where we are today. And that journey continues for another two years, and beyond. But very heavy focused on deployment. And while that's happening, we're looking at the hybrid version of VMs and containers running in the network. How do you make that happen? How do you translate one from the other? So, you know, VNFs, CNFs, everything going at the same time in your network. >> You know what's exciting is with the software abstractions emerging, the hard problems are starting to emerge because as it gets more complicated, end by end problems, as you said, there's a lot of new costs and complexities, for instance, the big conversation at the Edge is, you don't want to move data around. >> No, no. >> So you want to move compute to the edge, >> You can, yeah-- >> But it's still a networking problem, you've still got edge, so edge, AI, deep learning, networking all tied together-- >> They're all tied together, right, and this is where Linux Foundation, by developing these projects, in umbrellas, but then allowing working groups to collaborate between these projects, is a very simple governance mechanism we use. So for example, we have edge working groups in Kubernetes that work with LF Edge. We have Hyperledger syncs that work for telecoms. So LFN and Hyperledger, right? Then we have automotive-grade Linux, that have connected cars working on the edge. Massive collaboration. But, that's how it is. >> Yeah, you connect the dots but you don't, kind of, force any kind of semantic, or syntax >> No. >> into what people can build. >> Each project is autonomous, >> Yeah. >> and independent, but related. >> Yeah, it's smart. You guys have a good view, I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing. Okay, let's talk about the Open Source Summit and KubeCon, happening in China, the week of the 24th of June. >> Correct. >> What's going on, there's a lot of stuff going on beyond Cloud Native and Linux, what are some of the hot areas in China that you guys are going to be talking about? I know you're going over. >> Yeah, so, we're really excited to be there, and this is, again, life beyond Linux and Cloud Native; there's a whole dimension of projects there. Everything from the edge, and the excitement of Iot, cloud edge. We have keynotes from Tencent, and VMware, and all the Chinese- China Mobile and others, that are all focusing on the explosive growth of open-source in China, right. >> Yeah, and they have a lot of use cases; they've been very aggressive on mobility, Netdata, >> Very aggressive on mobility, data, right, and they have been a big contributor to open-source. >> Yeah. >> So all of that is going to happen there. A lot of tracks on AI and deep learning, as a lot more algorithms come out of the Tencents and the Baidus and the Alibabas of the world. So we have tracks there. We have huge tracks on networking, because 5G and implementation of ONAP and network automation is all part of the umbrella. So we're looking at a cross-section of projects in Open Source Summit and KubeCon, all integrated in Shanghai. >> And a lot of use cases are developing, certainly on the edge, in China. >> Correct. >> A lot of cross pollination-- >> Cross pollination. >> A lot of fragmentation has been addressed in China, so they've kind of solved some of those problems. >> Yeah, and I think the good news is, as a global community, which is open-source, whether it's Europe, Asia, China, India, Japan, the developers are coming together very nicely, through a common governance which crosses boundaries. >> Yeah. >> And building on use cases that are relevant to their community. >> And what's great about what you guys have done with Linux Foundation is that you're not taking positions on geographies, because let the clouds do that, because clouds have-- >> Clouds have geographies, >> Clouds, yeah they have agents-- >> Edge may have geography, they have regions. >> But software's software. (laughs) >> Software's software, yeah. (laughs) >> Arpit, thanks for coming in. Great insight, loved talking about networking, the deep learning- congratulations- and obviously the IoT Edge is hot, and-- >> Thank you very much, excited to be here. >> Have a good trip to China. Thanks for coming in. >> Thank you, thank you. >> I'm John Furrier here for CUBE Conversation with the Linux Foundation; big event in China, Open Source Summit, and KubeCon in Shanghai, week of June 24th. It's a CUBE Conversation, thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier cohost of the Cube, here with my cohost this week Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. Got two great guests in the industry here, Lew Tucker, the CTO of Cloud Computing for Cisco Systems and Aparna Sinha who's the group project manager for Google Cloud, thanks for coming on, great to see you guys. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> So obviously the two big players, you've got networking, you've got moving up the stack and Google Cloud with all the goodness you have hundreds of people here at this show. Cloud native big, you're cloud native, >> Aparna: Yeah. >> You guys are running the networks a lot of stuff's happening, but the big story's the Kubernetes de facto standard position that's been echoed by many people here, Kubernetes tightly controlled core with a lot of innovation going on around Kubernetes. >> Aparna: Yes. >> When I hear words like de facto standards, it reminds me of the old networking days when the OSI model and the TCPIP was forming. Massive shifts at that point. >> Lew: Yeah, yeah. >> Almost a seminal moment now. >> Yeah but in fact I think in open source it's a different notion than in the old days of standards. Here we've got multiple communities, multiple companies that are working together to create a common platform and that's what I think the success of open source is about. So actually, Kubernetes coming into CNCF has really makes that possible and we just graduated it so we should have a celebration around Kubernetes now has graduated in terms of a CNCF project. >> Yeah and you know one think I would say about de facto standard, I don't take that for granted. Kubernetes is built as a platform that runs anywhere across on premises, data centers, public clouds, runs anywhere but, you know that it will be or is a de facto standard is something that we don't take for granted. We make sure in the community that we're working on increase support for, for example different types of storage with a storage interface standard, different types of networking, with a CNI different types of run times, so establishing those interfaces and establishing those standards is key to making it the platform. But that's certainly the potential of Kubernetes is to be-- >> Yeah I mean it's not the end game, it's the beginning. >> Aparna: It is. >> And the nurturing and making sure that ecosystem with thrive is important. And that's why I want to get your thoughts, 'cause you've got Google and Cisco here so lets talk about first the relationship, you guys are working together. >> Lew: Absolutely, yeah. >> Talk about the relationship between Google and Cisco. >> Sure, I think it came about because we're both recognizing that enterprises for example are incorporating cloud computing as a part of their overall IT strategy. And so they needed to find a way, how can they actually make that happen without companies that are working in both of those areas getting together. So it's very natural I think for the two of us to sort of come together because this way we can take our enterprise customers and using Kubernetes as sort of the foundational platform make it so that they can run applications wherever they want, they can run it in their private data center they can run it in Google Cloud, and we can make this now, to provide a lot of the networking so that you can extend private networks into Google Cloud and vice versa, so I think it's a marriage made in heaven in that way. >> Aparna you're reaction to the partnership. >> Yeah, you know, Google is a very developer friendly, developer focused company, always has been, you know the majority of Google is actually developers so it's a company for developers by developers and you know with Google Cloud actually the irony is we're also a networking company and so there's a nice affinity working with Cisco. Our DNA is very much open source, there's multiple projects that have come out of Google that have been very successful open source projects. I mean Tenser Flow, Kubernetes I think is unique in that we've really created and participated and built a community around it and so with this partnership, we're really excited to have Cisco also be part of the community, certainly with Kubernetes but also the Istio Project. And a lot of the projects in cloud native have come from Google's experience running services at global scale. Kubernetes certainly came that way from the Borg heritage and then Istio also from, from what we call one platform, internally to manage service. >> That's a great point, you brought up scale and it's interesting, it's almost like you have two large scale companies here, you have Cisco with massive scale footprint of enterprises from day one, routers you need to move packets around the internet. You guys have built scale for Google with millions of services out there, millions of users, I mean it's unprecedented. So now as you come into the enterprise, the Cisco relationship is an opportunity to blend the best of Google with the footprint at Cisco, how is that going to work, how's that working and what's the vision? I mean obviously it's a nice match, you've got a great footprint in the enterprise, you've got massive scale with the cloud, bringing that in, moving it out, hybrid cloud obviously, is that the? >> Yeah well we often notice for example as I sort of said, the foundational piece is actually running Kubernetes everywhere and so we just recently announced a Cisco container platform which is based on Kubernetes, that means that enterprises now can develop applications in Google Cloud and then run them in their enterprises or vice verse and then on top of that and we're adding in the networking capabilities, through things such as CSR and things like that to allow us to connect both the enterprise and their public cloud running Kubernetes and then Istio as we're mentioning is this thing on top and I'm, as you know, a big fan of where that really is going to take us because I think one of the things that enterprises want to be able to do is that they want to be able to consume services out of Google Cloud, whether it be in kind of terms of the data services or increasingly AI, intelligence service, Tenser Flow, be able to use as a part of their enterprise applications and so I have within my team for example contributed both in terms of what we're doing in terms of Istio, Kubernetes, I've got people on my team who are bringing for example IPB6 into Kubernetes, that's important because, guess what, service providers also want to move into a container world. And then also Cube Flow and so all of these things are starting to come together so that you can start building applications as an assembly of these services and many other services that I will see coming from the public cloud and Google in particular. >> Aparna, I want to ask you, because this is important to distinguish this Istio trend because we asked a lot of people at the Cube here and in our reporting, okay what's next after Kubernetes? If you have a de facto standard, you have stuff coming around it, an eco system, everyone talks about service mesh and Istio project. >> Aparna: Yeah. >> Now the best thing about infrastructure as code which is dev ops in the cloud is you can make things programmable and automate, so if you look at what Istio's doing, it feels like an application benefit but also an automated networking concept with services. >> Aparna: Sure. >> So you got kind of a new dynamic going on where a lot of dynamic things are happening a lot of services are being provisioned, maybe for the first time. >> Aparna: Yeah, yeah. >> So how do you instrument it? This is going to be a future area of innovation. >> So again going back to that standard, right? That platform that runs everywhere, why is it a standard, why is it becoming a standard and I hear this from our customers, our users, it's because they don't have to train multiple times for multiple different environments, they can really scale their workforce, they can hire people that they trained up in Kubernetes and they can scale that workforce so it applies regardless of where they go and it gives them that mobility and if you think about the eco system around Kubernetes right so Kubernetes is one project, a major big project but then the eco system around Kubernetes has really exploded in the last year it has gone from 4000 projects to 15000 projects and I was looking through those projects and seeing you know, which are the ones that have the most stars and there's actually three projects that stood out as having more than 3000 stars but being new, like in the last year and Istio was at the top of that list and obviously it's very popular in terms of the number of stars but it's only one year old and I don't know how much people know that. >> And I think it's interesting, 'cause I'm going to throw kind of a curve ball here at you and say, you know I'm hearing that the service mesh is actually, people are using it. >> Aparna: Yes. >> But it's actually hasn't been deployed into production, is that the case? >> Aparna: It's starting to be. >> Okay. >> So on GKE, Google Kubernetes Engine we've got customers that are deploying Istio, it's starting. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Again it's a one year old project and then also on premise, using the open source and we've got a program called the EEPE program it's like an early program, they're deploying and using Istio and it tends to be a very nice attach to Kubernetes. >> So what is the use case for that? >> One of the things to understand, it is very new and less than a year old, we're not even at a one dot out yet but the components that go into it, Envoy for example has been battle tested because Istio's made up of, just to get technical, in terms of having proxies that make up the data plane and that's battle testing or whatever. So now we're adding a control plane on top of that, where policy, telemetry, observability, all of that comes to the fore. That's what's new. So bringing that together and so people have and Istio's not the only service mesh, service meshes have actually been made up of these proxies and have you manage them, Istio's just seems to be a better way to the community is agreeing-- >> A proxy can be very inefficient, so I want to just ask a question on that because one of the things that I'm trying to understand is for the average person in tech, not the inside baseball, they're trying to understand why is Istio so powerful. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So is there, what paid points are they solving? >> The easiest way to think about that is we've moved to a microservices architecture and that's so that every development team can focus on their particular area of expertise, they don't want to have to learn networking and everything else, so what we've done is we've offloaded all of the issues around how do you do load balancing, circuit breakers and telemetry off to a service mesh, that allows the developer to dramatically increase their productivity because they're only focused on their one application area and now the operations team brings that together through the networking concept. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So they built a distributed application without having to know very much about the specificity. >> Yes, it's very much that separation of concern and you know Kubernetes has the same principle, it separates you know the infrastructure from the applications and what Istio does, it allows you to manage those applications at scale, visualize them, make them secure and to control them in a scalable way, so you're not writing the service management pieces into the application and the developer is therefor freed from that burden and the application operations team can then manage things like distributing certificates or rotating certificates, right? Those are things you need to do across all of your services. >> So you're bringing us on that system and I know you guys run at scale, hundreds of thousand of services, if not more, I don't know what the number is, millions whatever it is. >> Aparna: Four million containers. >> Tons. >> Aparna: A week! >> So when you talk about that, what I'm hearing and I've talked to the SRE, site reliable engineers before, the roll of the admin is gone to more of an operator and then the operator role is less of an operating, 'cause it's operating only on exception, 'cause if you got policy in the control plane, that seems to be where the action is, is that, am I getting that right? How do you explain that notion of less admin, more operational kind of-- >> There is a change in roles, the administration of the application is not so application specific if you will, right? And I think the best analogy to it is the way we do development at Google, everybody is a developer right? And they write their services but there's a lot of common infrastructure that you do not replicate so for example storage, monitoring, logging, you know publishing your API, you know quotas, rate limiting, chargebacks, billing, all of that is common infrastructure, you write your service, it is immediately using all of that infrastructure, you don't build those things into your application and that has so many benefits, you know you can write your service and it can be global. >> So on time savings, no brainer, automation-- >> And when you change any one of those services that has a monitoring or anything, now you don't have to tell the application development team that that change is happening. >> So this is infrastructure as code, passes the test right? You can program the infrastructure. >> This is services, this is a services world, rather than infrastructure world or an application siloed world, this is the world of services, that's really what we're here for. >> What's the growth in microservices? I'm seeing different stats, can you just give an order of magnitude, just from your own personal experience in looking at the market, how fast is the notion of microservices growing? 'Cause this is really the proxy for the cloud native shift. And you guys are certainly micro services oriented, we talk about this all the time, any data or any anecdotes around growth of microservices? >> Well I mean there's a lot of surveys and most of the surveys point towards, I think containers are a good proxy, you know 88 percent of enterprises are using containers, it's becoming, whether you move to the cloud or not actually containers are basically a way of doing things more repeatedly, giving you efficiency from an infrastructure perspective giving you reliability so that you know you can basically exchange out the hardware and your container environment is still resilient and then giving you that developer productivity, that's becoming something that enterprises are embracing, it seems from these surveys and I think that's the building block for microservices. >> And I think many people are already moved, remember Soho, we've got history here, so we've been trying to move towards this world in which it is a services world and before it was much too heavyweight Ectimel RPC and everything that made it, Soap and everything else, difficult to do these things. Now things have gotten much much easier. So a lot of people are actually doing a services architecture already. And the microservices I think is just a more formal way of doing that at a finer grain and when you get to this finer grain, that's when you need something like a service mesh now to pull things back together again. >> Alright, lets do a plug for the service mesh, people that are watching have got to be intrigued by this conversation, what's the state of the service mesh piece, lot of stars so good good community vibe going on, how do they get involved, what's needed, where's the white space, where's the work being done? >> And I think also John, what skills are needed to actually as a developer, you know we've got a lot of new folks here at that show that are just learning about this and what do they need to know to actually do this and bring this back to their companies. >> If they're, so first of all it's at Istio.io so that's the place to start, there's a lot of very good documentation there, there's very simple examples that can be downloaded so that you can try it out, you can try it out we're using containers so on top of cumulating, you can do it on your laptop, you can do it in the cloud so we're in this wonderful age of the internet in fact that most of the learning is done online and that you can get everything you need online you don't have to walk away from the show with a CD pack or anything else like that. So I would encourage developers to just simply try it out by themselves. Remember then there's Istio developers, people that are actually contributing code into Istio, that's sort of a specialized group of people who are very interested in it. More people, it'll be 10 to one users of Istio than there will be actually of the Istio developer community and the Istio developer community I urge people to get involved 'cause that's where we need to expand the number of use cases and make sure that we're covering the things that are important across the board for variety. >> Yeah, I mean Istio's not that difficult to learn, it's an L7 Proxy. It has a great affinity to Kubernetes project so if you are using Kubernetes or are involved in Kubernetes project then it basically is something that you can deploy into your Kubernetes cluster and you can get started with it. There are a number of trainings and workshops actually at this conference, there were a couple of Istio trainings and there are many tracks and then there's training online, there's a tutorial on the Google site with the GKE and I think on many other companies as well to get started with Istio but it's basically a proxy and in, it's not actually only limited to Kubernetes, you can run it in a VM environment, you can, it basically any service, it is a proxy that intercepts and you know basically can provide load balancing, traffic managing, quotas, all of those things that you expect of a rich proxy and so if you have a networking background it's actually very easy to pick it up. >> That's great, now when you're talking about these kind of, you know, these proxy and things along those lines, I'm sure that there are use cases that are the first ones to pop up, can you talk a little bit about that. >> Yes, I think the first use case of Istio is actually Canary, Canary deployment, so being able to route traffic from one version of your application to another version of your application. Make sure that that, lets say it's an upgrade, you know, make sure that that's running well and then gradually route more of you're traffic. So that's a very developer centric use case that appeals and then of course security. And that's a less developer centric, more control and ops perspective and then observability and again, control, also an ops perspective, those are the three main use cases. >> Okay. >> That's great, that's awesome and you have Cube Flow going on here, you guys had a couple of Google folks on. >> Yes, so I mentioned three projects that are the top projects, Istio number one, number two is Cube Flow, again within the last year, more than 3000 stars and then the last one is Scaffold. >> Great stuff, I love the programmability, automation. >> And one of the things that we mentioned before, because when people hear proxy, they think of the old time, actually when you've used a proxy and a DNS which now it's very high performance and one of the things that you're seeing also, it connects up with other open source projects such as FDIO which is VPP, which is now being used, integrated into envoy which is a proxy, so the data plane itself, I think is going to be more efficient than people trying to do their own network. >> That's a good point Lew, I mean people think proxies are inefficient, it's a hack, a bridge between point A and point B. >> Yes, that was a lot of the initial skepticism around this, so you know, this was about two years ago we were sitting around saying okay, Kubernetes, what's next? And we came up with a open service broker, so you can consume services and then the early start of Istio, starting with Envoy and then building the service mesh around that and that was indeed one of the early concerns as well, will it be too heavy, will it add latency, will there be performance bottle neck, I think a lot of that concern has been addressed and it will continue to be addressed. >> Well we got to wrap up be I want to get some comments from you guys, reaction to the show here in Europe, obviously Google is in big force, Istio is prime time, you predicted that in Austin, it looks like it's tracking beautifully, reactions, what did you walk away with here from this event? What observations, revelations, surprises, share some color for the folks that couldn't make it. >> We were talking earlier about the number of use cases now that we've seen that our customers are coming in and describing how they're using Kubernetes and other of the technologies making up the cloud native world. And that allows people to learn and so that's what I'm always excited, because I can sit there in the audience and you can see everybody else going oh, I'm going to apply that to what I'm trying to do and just the breath now of-- >> John: So you're surprised at the uptake, or you're happy with the uptake, that's your reaction? >> Yeah and I think you would agree too. >> Yeah, I think the reason I come to KubeCon is to meet users, it's a user conference, and with each passing KubeCon, it becomes more and more user-centric so some of the talks here, the takeaways that I had, you know the folks from Spotify talked about how users need to get more involved and the benefits of getting more involved in the community, that was a very inspiring talk. Another talk yesterday talked about how Kubernetes needs to be a platform for everything, not just cloud native, but actually also Legacy and so these are points. And then the third piece, a lot of users talking about multicloud, right and making that a reality, these are things that I'm taking away as you know, users are doing this today. >> John: Multicloud certainly is a path, people have that outcome in mind. >> Yes. >> Doing the work now to get there. Thanks for coming on, Aparna and Lew. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you guys, you're awesome, senior folks in the industry, experienced executives, driving the change here, cloud native, microservices architecture, whole new modern paradigm shift in software architecture, here at KubeCon, Kubernetes, Istio, hot projects, Cube Flow and more here on the Cube, live coverage here in Copenhagen, stay with us for more coverage, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. Live in San Francisco. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Cisco's new inaugural DevNet Create event targeting the DevOps open source community as they put their toe in the water, their foray into a community approach to build on top of their success of their classic developer program, DevNet, which is only three years old. Shouldn't call it classics. It's actually emerging still and growing. Arnesc is our pitch, Joshipura GM, Network and Orchestration at the Linux Foundation. I'm also joined with my cohost Peter Burris. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Good to see you again, welcome back. Cube alumni. Obviously open networking. You guys are involved, you're having a great show, we cover it every year. Open Networking Summit, among other things. Huge demand for the technologies. An appetite for content in your area. Here at Cisco DevNet Create, you're seeing the emergence of Cisco taking their roots in networking and plumbing and operations, which, by the way, you know from the networking world. Sacred cows all over the place. Bringing it to the wild west, agile developer who wants infrastructure at Cisco is bringing that application meets infrastructure saying, we're going to bring programmable networking. That's music to the ears to the developers so we are getting infrastructure as code. That's your wheelhouse. What's going on in the Linux Foundation to continue this momentum? How do you guys look at this trend, give us the update on how the Linux Foundation is participating, supporting, getting involved with this programmable networking infrastructure as code trend. >> Sure. So first of all, let me baseline everybody. Linux Foundation is here to create the largest shared technology investment by building sustainable ecosystems. That's the mission in life. Within the Linux Foundation obviously the most successful open source project is Linux. But we're way beyond Linux. We host a whole set of open source projects starting from cloud native, CNCF, cloud foundry to blockchain projects like hyperledger, automotive grade Linux and a whole variety of Let's Encrypt, you name it. That we facilitate this shared technology investment. The area I own, which is networking, has several projects up and down the stack. All the way from data plane acceleration to orchestration, analytics and it's intended for carriers, enterprise, and cloud service providers including one of the most recent, highly successful and much in demand project called ONAP which is a full network automation stack. Open network automation platform. Which again, is an open source way to connect apps to infrastructure. This is the movement that you just mentioned and I'm really excited that the community's finally realizing the implications of the three letter acronym that started this whole thing called SDN. (laughing) >> SDN, SD when, a lot of stuff going on. Software defined, data center, obviously Cisco has a huge dominant preposition in the enterprise, data center in particular, but also they have a huge service provider business MSL. All that, they've been connecting networks on internet scale since the '90s. Really doing a great job. Now they got to really think about the future. What's your view there because I think Linux Foundation, you guys have been great stewards for sustainable ecosystems, but now Cisco has to put their toe into the new ecosystem. What's the meaning of that? What's the view, outlook? What's your take on where they're at? It looks good off the tee, middle of the fairway as we were saying earlier. Messaging's good, 90% of the content's community, agenda's relevant, looks good. >> I think our perspective is there's a major disruption happening. But it's not a technology disruption, it's an end user disruption. What I mean by that is the end users, whether it be carriers, whether it be enterprises whether it be cloud service providers, they are demanding that open source be part of the agenda. The reason for that is very simple. It's providing more agility, providing the access to the source code to allow for much faster feature development. They want to contribute, they want to develop the ecosystem to meet their requirements and everybody is unique as we all know. What is happening is, in this new environment, vendors, service providers, carriers, everybody is re-inventing themselves. They're re-inventing themselves with a new business model and the business model is essentially, how do I take a leadership role in developing this shared technology investment? It's not about a box. It's not about the fastest and the smallest and the largest switch routers, etc. It's about a software plan. >> It used to be about free software. Now, nothing's free because people are putting their company's name on the line. Their business models now are integrated to open source and they have people involved in other parts so technically it's free software but it's really, technically not free. But this is the new business model, this is what people are doing. >> I think you can-- >> It's tier one resource. >> If you look at the world's largest carriers today, whether it's in China, whether it's in US or in Europe, they have deployments that are built on open source. Open source networking specifically is becoming mainstream in terms of deployment. >> What's the hottest mainstream product right now? Is it SDN? What's the hottest in the-- >> SDN is a technology. SDN, NFV, network function virtualization. Those are technologies that enable the deployment of open source projects. We got projects like Open Daylight, ODL, OPNFV, ONAP, these are just names. Again as networking-- >> What's the hottest here, NFV or-- >> Right now ONAP is the hottest. As networking guys we always make these three or four letter acronyms so sorry to bug you. >> That's okay I don't mind. >> But that's how it is. >> So one of the observations at least we made at Wikibon and we made it here a couple times, is that open source has proven to be magnificently successful when the target is well defined. Other words, conventions of an operating system, there's no disagreement about what an operating system does. Hence open source could create a Linux that has just been wildly successful. Open source has not been as good at redefining the new use cases or where the technology might go. Therefore, a lot of times open source developers end up looking at each other and making each other's tools work. Which is, for example, in the big data universe, restricted the adoption of Aduke and the ability of Aduke for example. So getting value you out of it, but it's not as successful as it might be. That raises a question. I'm wondering what role you play in all this. Is there a need for a degree of open source leadership that can set the big picture, the longterm trends without undermining the innovative and inventive freedom of how developers have demonstrated they want to work together? What do you think? >> I think that's an excellent question. What happens is just by throwing software on say, Github, doesn't make you an open source project. I mean yeah, it does make you open source but that doesn't make you a successful open source project. You need a community behind it. You need a community of developers and a sustained ecosystem. One of the things we are championing, and I'm personally driving that agenda, which is thought leadership on how do these pieces fit together. As we are moving from components that were disagregated in networking to production ready software components, to production ready solutions, these all need to fit together and developed in its entirety. When you look at it holistically, from a solutions perspective, the most important thing that matters are use cases. So what we have done-- >> Totally agree. >> What we have done is for every project, strategically, when the requirements are laid down, I think of that as a requirements document. Or when the architecture is laid down. The end user use cases are explicitly defined for the community. The architecture is laid out. In that framework, the Linux Foundation facilitates the developments, the infrastructure the devOps, the agile model to come and co-create this technology in this area. >> So that's how you're doing the ideation. Are you then taking that and stepping up and also doing some of the design work? And it sounds like you are. >> We facilitate the community to do the design work, we give them architectural part leadership, we give them inter-project cross-leadership. For example, we have, in my group, in networking we have about 11 plus projects. There are multiple data plane acceleration projects. When you're putting a solution, you want portion of data plane acceleration to ride on a control plane, to ride on orchestration, to be tested end to end. Projects like OPNFV for example, they test all the pieces. They test things like FDIO, which is an acceleration project, they test open stack. Which again, it's not Linux Foundation but we do bring all the pieces together. Effectively the end user has it relatively easy to adopt and start installing. >> Congratulations, I saw that the Linux Foundation recently hired Sheryl Chamberlain as the Chief of Staff. Cube alumni been on many times, shout out for Cheryl. So you guys are growing. How are you guys handling the growth? I want to get your thoughts and you don't have to speak for the whole foundation but in general, for the folks not necessarily familiar with the inner workings of the Linux Foundation, like open source, you guys are always evolving and growing. How are you serving your stakeholders, your members and taking care and maintaining the sustainable ecosystems? >> The difference between a typical, throw the code up on GitHub versus actively managed, sustainable ecosystem is where Linux Foundation comes in. What we provide to projects in different capacity, is everything from IT as a service, marketing as a service, program management, thought leadership, executive directors, PR, media, and most importantly, events, global events to get the word out. All of that service, if you may, is what facilitates the community. Once the community is all coming together, things happen. I'll just give you an example, we just completed a developer summit on one of the projects called ONAP. Ran out of capacity, clearly. 200 people from world-wide, top-notch architects got in a room and they discussed how to merge almost 15 million lines of code. And they figured it out in four days. >> Over coffee. >> Not over coffee, it's like four days. >> I'm kidding (laughing). >> But they figured it out. I think that level of facilitation that we can provide, because you can't have it on a blank piece of paper. You need some framework, some governance, some model and some processes on how to do it. That's what Linux Foundation excels at. >> I want to move into the third area I want to discuss with you, us. You mentioned the three major customer and end users. Carriers, enterprises, cloud service providers. How do you guys relate and serve those customers when there's other stuff going on in the industry? We see Open Compute, Facebook's doing a lot of stuff, Google's throwing in a ton of open source. We have yet to see Amazon make their move with donating really good networking stuff. Certainly we've seen some machine learning out there, but, we're expecting to see an arm's race of presents coming in. It's like open bar at the hotel. More goodness is coming in from the big guys sponsoring great code. >> My mission is this year, at least, one of the things I've laid out at ONS this year was to harmonize the ecosystem. And harmonization doesn't mean merge it all so now we're one solution. Harmonization means understand where each other solutions interwork, inter-operate. If they overlap, we end up merging the projects, like what we did for ECOMP and OpenAL. That's one of the missions. Now in that process, we're looking, not just within the Linux Foundation and in my role, but also outside. That includes not just the software stacks, but also the hardware infrastructure layers. That would be OCP, that could be TIP, etc. And several others that are coming up. As well as harmonization with standards bodies. We believe that standards and open source coexist and there is a complimentary relationship there. We've been actively working with several of the standards. MEF, Team Forum, etc., etc. Trying to get a view. We just published a white paper on the Linux Foundation website on harmonizing standards on open source. There is a whole movement of ecosystem because at the end of the day, a carrier wants to solve a problem. They don't care how we solve it. I mean they do but not in a fragmented sense. And that problem is different from what an enterprise wants to solve and it's different from what a cloud. Now to your earlier question, the great news is cloud carriers and enterprises, they're looking and smelling the same as cloud native apps, cloud container networking and open source networking, they're all start combining, coming together. >> So I want to share with you a comment we had the other day. There's a story of the four wolves that were put into Yellowstone Park and changed the ecosystem cause Yellowstone had a river problem. So they injected four wolves into the ecosystem. Turns out, the deer went away, things started growing, and the whole ecosystem became so much more sustainable. Not that I'm trying to get at who's the wolves, but balancing and coexistence is the point here. You can live with wolves and not get eaten, unless you're their target. But there's a balancing act on ecosystems. And to have a good, sustainable ecosystem you need to have freshness, certainly standards and new blood, new ideas. What is your vision on coexistence because this is one of those things that we're seeing right now emerging, less about my project's better than your project. You're seeing a lot more collaboration going across communities. >> Correct. >> More than ever. >> A hundred percent agree. I think the fundamental problem has always been only the technical geeks understand the differences between the projects. And then the layer of abstraction in people, whether it's management or media, they start looking and feeling as if they are competing. I'll give you an example. In the data plane acceleration kit, we have projects like FDIO, DPDK, Iovisor, OVS, there's lots of projects there. And people like, oh my god, there's so many. Well, guess what? One of them is a kernel driven thing, other one is a set of libraries, third one builds on the libraries. So that level of understanding is missing. >> John: Interplay between all the projects. >> It's interplay. >> Peter Burris: And dependency. >> And dependencies. So that's one of the things that we want to highlight here, very significantly this year in terms of just sheer education. Because part of the coexistence is understanding each other. If we understand each other on what role each of the projects play, it's easy. Whether it's Linux Foundation or outside. So that's the first step. The second step is if they're complimentary, I want to take the next step and test them out for inter-operability. Because now you have put two pieces together. Remember, networking was a fully black box five years ago. >> Literally. >> We took it, blew it up, fragmented it, dis-segregated it, and now we got to pull... And we got tremendous innovation out of each of these layers. We were very successful on the whole disaggregation and SDN disruption. Not it's time to put it into a production ready solution. As we put those things in, we'll see that harmonization is going to play a big role. >> Arpit great to have you on here, sharing the insight. Always great to get the inner workings plus a great perspective on the industry trends and congratulations on your success and we'll continue to follow you and all your work in the networking area, all the projects Stu Miniman and team. We're going to continue to see you at the Open Networking Summit, among all the great shows. >> Thank you very much. >> Alright. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, live coverage here in San Francisco, as part of our exclusive two day coverage of the inaugural Cisco DevNet Create event. I'm John here with Peter Burris, we'll be back with more after this short break, stay with us. >> Hi I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director