>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman and this is Silicon Angle Media's theCUBE, worldwide leader in live, enterprise tech coverage here at DockerCon 2017, Austin, Texas. Happy to have on the program, a guest that's been on before. Mazda Marvasti, he's the CEO of appLariat, and he's brought along a managed service provider of his, also a customer of his, Thomas Chamtie, who is the founder of KMicro Technologies. Gentleman, thanks so much for joining me. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you sir. >> Alright, so you're both from Orange County, come down here to Austin, I have some local friends of mine they're like, God all these tech conferences are coming down here. I'm like, this seems to be where open source kind of gathers. There's the OSCON coming in a couple weeks, I'll be back later this year for Cube-con, come there. First time for both of you. Just quick, how's the show been for you so far? >> It's been really well received in terms of our product announcement and our company, and not just open source, enterprise. Enterprise applications are all over the place. For us, doing a launch at DockerCon was very appropriate because our company is all about taking your existing applications, new applications and taking them through the journey of not just into the cloud, but into the container era, running on a modern container environment. So it's been well received so far. >> Mazda, it takes some really interesting stuff this week and even the last few months when I've been hearing the cloud space. We've been talking about micro services and cloud-native and everything like that. But customers have, you talk of the enterprise, they've got hundreds if not thousands of existing applications. Therefore, what about them? Ben Golub got on stage, said, "it's not a bimodal world, we need to give them platform, to be able to move forward." That ties into the vision of your company right? >> Oh absolutely. The real problems and the real opportunities are with the existing applications. How do you get those applications same kinds of capabilities that you're trying to give brand new applications being done with microservices. That's why Thomas with KMicro, they're a managed service provider that they're working with customers along the same journey. >> Thomas, before we get into the solution with appLariat, just give us the thumbnail, your background and your company. >> Basically, KMicro as a company is a three year old company, we do managed services for mid to large sized customers. I, myself have been doing IT for about 20 years. Not the fresh guy on the block. But we were introduced to appLariat, when we were looking to do a little project for a client of ours. They had a specific legacy application that they needed to modernize. We're looking for a solution for them that would help them modernize the application, at the same time stay up to date with the latest technologies. Docker seemed, in addition to containerizing, all their application was the solution, was the way to go for them. That's when we were introduced to appLariat and worked together on that project and we've been working with them since then. We love working with these guys, their solution seems to solve a huge issue for a lot of our clients and we look forward to actually doing that again and again for more clients. >> I mean, the challenge here is how does KMicro repeatably do that across customers? So you have consistency which is the same thing when you look at an enterprise. Yeah, I can hand craft an application so that it's containerized and I can deploy it. But how do I get repeatability and consistency across different teams across my applications? That's the scale issue, that you can't use muscle memory to move your applications into the cloud. >> Mazda you're totally right. I've watched the app modernization environment and when you go say, oh what's the killer app, what's the number one thing, it's custom. And that's not scalable, that's not repeatable. Maybe unpack for us a little bit about what you guys bring, that journey along there and how you fit in that spectrum. >> Again, the key is, not to be reliant upon software artists to sit there and script away per application, how does this thing get containerized? What you want to bring is automation and uniformity across these applications. So that you have the same type of consistency for the applications. Then not only that, but when you deploy it, how does the orchestrator manage those deployed containers? Because if you're not going to run it in on an orchestrator, it becomes really difficult to manage it. We use Kubernetes from the backend to actually orchestrate these containers but then you have to have a policy layer that manages that entire infrastructure. Kubernetes is great at knowing that to do, it just doesn't know when to do it. So we provide that when capability. Again, that's a solution that a managed service provider can essentially say okay, now I can repeatably do this across my customers and manage the environments in a similar manner. Versus having to do one-offs. That's what we're trying to get away from. >> Thomas, could you maybe, if it's possible, walk us through a little bit that project with the customer. How long it took, how many people were involved. Where some of the heavy lifting is there. Anything that you've done this, to say oh okay, here's what we've learned for the next time. >> So one of the clients is a GPS tracking company. And they have the DevOps team that were struggling maintaining their code. They have code all over the place. Mazda was more involved on this project than I might have been, so he'll chime in on that. But what we walked out at the end with this client, is that they had a platform that their DevOp could go to and test their code against without having to spend tremendous amount of time or effort into putting all the pieces together. The application will actually do all of that for you from A to Z. They didn't have to worry about storage or processing or memory or any of that stuff. It was just there for them to use. In a second, or a few seconds, they could just conduct an environment, test their code against it, and all was said, when they're done with it, it just shuts down. And it scales up as well, so if they needed to do some testing against an application or a code, they would do the test and then shut down the environment and they're ready to go. And move on. >> Right, the primary use case was that I'm spending way too much money on AWS for DevTest. Because developers would go spin up the VMs and use it to develop and do some unit testing and then the VMs will just live there. So ongoing, continuous basis. Once we put the AWS under a Kubernetes cluster, we're then able to manage the cluster size based on usage and availability, etc. Not only that but then the IT side of the house is able to govern that environment for the developers. The developers don't care to go provision machines or use iAds or anything like that. They just want to deploy their applications, be able to test it and go back and modify code. That's all they care about while IT cares about where does that code go, who looks at it, how does it get tested, what is the cost infrastructure for that. By using our product to manage that AWS cluster, they were able to save 50% on their AWS costs by just managing that DevTest environment. Now we're moving it into production. Those are the kinds of use cases that really you find containerization can bring. You talk about bringing new capabilities to the apps, but it also really goes to cost savings as well. And that was something that-- >> 50% probably conservative even, I would think. We had one of the keynotes case studies this morning, I think it was Visa, was like, 90% of my environment is being utilized less than 10%. >> Mazda: Underutilized, right. >> We know that, heck, I think back, we had server sprawl, we had vm sprawl, now we have cloud sprawl. Is it the whole API economy that allows your software to be able to plug into this, manage some of these environments? How much of it is just cloud, how much is it containers allowing us to do some of this-- >> So every layer we talk about is another layer of abstraction. Cloud is an abstraction, container is an abstraction. Orchestration is an abstraction. Every time you bring these abstractions, you're introducing inefficiency into the system. It brings efficiency in terms of how you develop, how much more secure your application is, how easily you can bring your applications up and down. It brings inefficiencies in terms of these things living on. In terms of sprawl along the cloud boundaries that your applications are running. We bring the efficiency in terms of policies. That says who gets to have what where? And when does it die? Because nothing should live forever. Unless it's your production app, it should not live forever. And when should it die? Expiring those applications and then reclaiming the environment to a smaller size so that your costs are lower or giving the resource to someone else who may need to use it. >> Mazda, Dockers made a real emphasis this week about the ecosystem. Can you talk about partnering with them, how easy it is to work with them, what you're seeing over the last year or so? >> Yeah, we're primarily using the open source Docker containerization mechanism. Because that's really prevalent in the marketplace. We found the same thing in terms of using Kubernetes. Customers are looking for having a degree of control. Close source at a level where your application is running at this point is becoming really difficult. For customers to be able to manage that ability to be able to say okay, I don't have control over this part of my environment, that doesn't make any sense to me. The open source community is really come along in terms of moving the enterprises into their direction. What we're doing is that we're leveraging those open source elements so at the end of the day, we are not in the interconnect between the customer and their applications. They can always go back to those open source tools to manage the applications however they want. We're providing the orchestration layer that sits on top of those open source tools, really unifying them and bringing them together. >> Thomas, what is this whole containerization, your partnership with appLariat mean to your business? How do you expect it to change what you guys are doing? >> There's a couple of things. One of them is modernizing the applications that we talked about a minute ago. But another thing that we wanted to bring on the table and use their solution for was disaster recovery. No one had thought of real time disaster recovery without the efforts of going through a whole bunch of configuration and maintaining, a whole bunch of things. Just to have disaster recovery for a company, no matter what cloud you're in, no matter what infrastructure you use, it doesn't matter. That's when appLariat, we think, is a really good platform that we're going to build on to actually provide what we call real time disaster recovery services for our clients. I think that'll take us, that'll be pretty good for our clients and it's going to help us grow our business as well. >> Yeah, that's another one of those areas where you see a lot of managed service providers providing disaster recovery services but what that means is that they'll provide you a location in the cloud for you to have your application and then services along the lines of people. In bringing those applications to run over there. Then when there is a disaster, have to go through a lot of manual effort to get that site up and running. So what we're talking about, is that if you have your applications already containerized, you can snap shot it anywhere. Once it's snap shotted, it can come up and go down very quickly. Having that ability in terms of being able to provide disaster recovery services on a containerized application is a whole new set of capabilities that now I think it's viable for our organizations. >> Let alone the cost savings as well. Like you were talking about. The cost savings are huge. I only need to speed up the environment when needed. It doesn't have to sit idle, sitting there, costing us money or costing the client money. >> Do you see passing that savings onto your customers? >> Absolutely, absolutely. That's one of the areas that was untapped in the past and with doctoring, containerizing applications technologies, this is the next thing. This is the future of doing disaster recovery. We see it that way. And then we look for-- >> Mazda, oh sorry. >> Yeah, no worries. >> Mazda, want to give you the final word. When people leave DockerCon 2017, what do you want them to know about appLariat and the solutions you're providing. >> What I want them to know is that you don't need to become a scripting ninja to be able to containerize our applications and bring cloud native capabilities to your existing applications. You don't need to become a scripting magician. You can take your existing applications through a very easy process, get them containerized, deploy it on Kubernetes without having to know anything about the underlying infrastructure that it actually takes for those platforms to run. On an ongoing basis, as newer technologies comes along, we'll be the abstraction layer in front of the application for those customers so that they don't need to bother. Do I need to make a bet on something? Do I need to learn new technologies, do I need to upgrade my people? Keep doing what you're doing, your existing CICD process stays as is, your existing developer work levels and skillset remains as is. Everything else should be abstracted and taken away from you. >> Mazda and Thomas, thank you so much for joining us, we'll be back with lots more programming, thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Austin, Texas, it's the CUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker in support from its ecosystem partners. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman here with the final wrap with Jim Kobielus at DockerCon 2017. The CUBE's really excited that we were here for the third year. Have to have a big shout out to our partners and our sponsors that allow us to be here. Of course, Docker's been a great partnership. They talk a lot about ecosystem, really bringing some media people like ourselves giving us some of the great speakers from their company, the partner ecosystem and their customers, and the sponsors for the show, for ourselves, App Lariat, CISCO, Iguazio, Skelety, Cononical, and Red Hat. Without them we couldn't bring you this programming. Really excited to be able to be here. They're starting to tear down the show here, so not a lot of time, so many things to dock to. >> The show itself is containerized. >> We're not even going to be able to talk about the Franklin's barbeque. >> You just did. >> But Jim ... Absolutely. Jim, you've gotten to be on the CUBE here, see some of the show. Give us your quick hits. >> Sure. >> on your takeaways from the show. >> First of all, my first takeaway is this is a vibrant developer ecosystem, clearly. This show is much larger than the year before, and the year before that. It'll probably be twice as large next year. That's my prediction based on the sheer amount of developers migrating into the Docker ecosystem because so many organizations are Dockerizing their applications, containerizing their applications. That's a huge focus for me and Wikibon, as an analyst, is the containerization of application development with microservices and all that, for cloud deployment and multi-clouds, hot, hot, hot across all niches. So, vibrant ecosystem. Docker as the core solution-provider and the centerpiece of this community. Amazing show. The Enterprise Edition, of course, that preceded the announcement of that and the release preceded this show. That's critically important in getting Docker into new accounts that, with a full stack. Clearly it's enterprise ready. Developers, more developers will be exposed to Docker through the EE. Docker, at this show, had a couple of really important announcements for developers. Moby. Project Moby, for customization of container images and so forth, clearly that's going to be a multiplier effect on the ecosystem of developers, ISVs and so forth, Building applications, and customizing containerized Docker applications and images for a wide range of opportunities. >> Yeah, Jim, just want to comment on the Moby piece here 'cause it was really interesting. I think the last couple of years, it's been that pull and tug as to what was the open-source piece, what is the company itself doing, and I think it's clarifying. Kubernetes is a big rising tide in the environment, and all they cared about is they've got the open-source pieces that they need to be able to do Kubernetes. So, with Moby Project it's like okay, now I understand what's out and open. I understand what Docker's doing. I saw some humility from Solomon Hykes, talking, it's like we're listening. We're working, you know, ecosystem, ecosystem, ecosystem. So it was good to see that maturity. I mean, there were some people that I talk to, and they're like, "Oh, will this be the last DockerCon?" I'm like, "I don't think anybody watching this show would say that coming out." As you said, I expect the show to grow; it's doing really well. >> Solomon's totally partner-focused. Look at him. >> Kudos to what they're doing. The partners are excited. It's not just lip service. "Oh yeah. We did some little announcement on the side." No. We're excited. This is there. I know you've got a bunch of pieces, but I want to ask you, are developers excited about taking this legacy ... >> There's lots of news I'm going to analyze. >> Legacy applications, and like helping to move those in, or they only want to work on the cool new stuff? >> Oh, that's a huge theme. MTA. I forget what exactly the acronym stands for, but it's wrapping legacy applications, containerizing them in the Docker ecosystem. That is so important so all of these legacy applications will be Dockerized before long, and refactored, in addition to all the Greenfield development of containerized applications. So the MTA announcement, just as critical as the Moby announcement and so forth in terms, and EE as part of the show, of getting Docker, getting their ecosystem, getting developers working in this environment, more and more developers. This entire Docker, this entire ecosystem has a magnetic force on the developer community, or will. Those are very important. Also I thought the announcements with Microsoft, in terms of containers are going into Windows in a larger way, Linux containers and so forth, that also, 'cause Microsoft has a huge presence obviously in not only enterprise but small to midsize businesses. We're going to see Docker in ever-smaller deployments, hosts and so forth, across the board. More buyers, in other words, more companies will be Dockerizing more applications thanks to, in part, Microsoft as clearly a forerunner. >> Jim, absolutely. I say it at almost every cloud show. I want to follow the data and I want to follow the applications, and you had Microsoft and you had Oracle. You had two of the big players from an application standpoint, Oracle's now in the Docker store. >> Oracle's in the Docker store. That is huge. >> Yeah. >> That has validated containers and Docker for ... >> How about you? From the data standpoint, I heard, we talked to Iguazio about some of the analytics and things ... >> Jim: I'm a data guy, yeah. >> Yeah, you're a data guy. What's a data guy think at a show like this? Is it too infrastructure-focused, or did you see some of the data future here? >> No. It's infrastructure-focused in the sense that it needs to be to harden this technology for enterprise deployment, but it's really dev-ops focused, you know, Kubernetes and everything, and Swarm and whatnot. Look at all these vendors. Here are these tools for the dev-ops life cycle, Kubernetes and everything. That's really, really important. It's all about developers and speeding of development, and putting containerized Docker applications and images into production, and managing them and securing them and so forth. Just the sheer range of dev-ops tools on this show floor that's packing up now was amazing. I'm just uncracking my research here. Very important. So I'm going to wrap up. So, the adoption is amazing. I mean, all these industries, including like Visa. We had a swap-meet, who have adopted Docker into core applications that they're running major businesses on. That's some serious validation in its own right. >> Jim, one of the feedback I got from, it was actually John White from Expedient. >> Okay. >> talked about, and he said he deals with kind of small to mid, to little bit large enterprises, and he said, all that this keynote reminds us of AWS Re:Invent a couple of years ago. >> Oh yeah. >> Big global names. I mean, it's, you know, Visa. You know. Around the globe. Northern Trust. These are not, you know, your regional companies that did a little initiative. It's virtualization started in a lot of small environments. Containerization really started in the likes of Google. I remember the first DockerCon. It was Google and Facebook, and they're the ones that have been doing these projects pre-Docker, and it's slowly moving down. Part of the things I look at is where's the watermark >> Jim: Yeah. >> Where below this you're probably not going to do containers because you're going to go live on a platform that leverages container. The service writers I talked to ... >> Jim: They're going to live in a public cloud like Microsoft, or you know. >> Stu: The cloud guys. I'm going to go to, right, I'm going to go to Microsoft. I'm going to go to Oracle. >> Jim: AWS or IBM. >> Stu: I'm going to go AWS. >> Jim: Whoever it might be. >> Right. Any of them because they're going to just take care of that, and I won't care that it was containerized, so at the end of the day, it's not that tool, it's the wave of that modernization. >> Oh. Yeah, I want to end on a data note because we were talking about data. Okay. I thought Iguazio, I thought Yaron was very, that was very good to have him. There's a lot of storage foundations like Veritas and so forth, so storage in a Docker environment and persistent storage and data protection, pretty important, but also containerizing the new wave of applications that are machine-learning and deep learning and artificial intelligence. We got a fair look at some of that from Solomon yesterday because Solomon mentioned that the open AI consortium is based in their internal test bed training network on Docker, on Swarm and so forth. I, in my prior life, I just joined Wikibon a few weeks ago, I've focused on data science, which is a key development theme, by the way, I'll focus on for Wikibon. I saw a lot of containerization. I saw a fair amount of Docker and a lot of the data science oriented app dev that was going on in the business world. That's going to be a huge theme for me under Wikibon, but also, I mean Solomon sort of alluded to a lot, and so did Yaron, a lot of the work that's going on in the AI community Dockerized their application. Tenser flowing, all that. Huge theme we'll probably see much more of at next year's DockerCon I predict containerizing AI. >> All right. Well. >> For deployment into autonomous vehicles. Whatever. >> Jim, you've long been a CUBE alumn, but now you are a veteran of doing the CUBE. I really appreciate you coming on. >> I'm on this side of the table now. It's amazing. >> Stu: I want to give a shout out to the whole team here. John Furrier, I know, was really disappointed. He loves this show. Usually my co-host. A lot of these open-sourced shows. John, you better be down here in Austin for CUBECon at the end of the year with me. So many shows now through July 4th. The CUBE has so many activities going on. If you go to theCUBE.net, you can see all of our upcoming shows. Always watch us live. If we're not at the show that you think we should be at, go ahead and Ping us. Reach out to us through Twitter or through the website. Jim's research, a lot of it's going to be on Wikibon.com. Siliconangle.com is also where we have some research corner, some of the other pieces there, so check out the whole SiliconANGLE Media for Jim, myself, Ava, Leonard, Brandon, Jay, Sam, who's already heading to the airport. Thank you so much for watching The CUBE. Hope to see you at lots of shows coming around and thank you for sharing.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's TheCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker. And support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman, joined with Jim Kobielus, happy to have at the end of our two days of live coverage here of DockerCon 2017 on TheCUBE, we've got a practitioner and also what was one that did a great presentation in the keynote this morning, happy to welcome Swamy Kocherlakota who is the global head of Infrastructure and Operations with Visa, so Swamy welcome and what's in your wallet? >> Yes. I all have Visa cards in my wallet, right. >> In your container, here at DockerCon. >> That's a good one, Jim, I like that so we were really impressed, I tell you social media was lighting up, going through your case study, talking about how it's kind of the before very much a virtualized environment looks like many data centers I went through and that digital transformation if you will as to what you're doing. Before we get into kind of your case studies, tell us just a little bit about you, your role, how much you're flying around the world, with the Infrastructure and Ops. >> Right, so, I'm responsible for Visa Inc's Operations and Infrastructure, so my responsibility is to kind of run everything that's inside Visa that does the payment processing. So that's my responsibility. I travel a lot, we have a global team, Visa is a global company, so I'm on the road a lot. >> So, I love the case study you did today because it's always what we want to do as analysts is let's talk about the pain points, let's paint the before, how did everything go through and point the after, so we want to encapsulate a little bit of that and as I said highly virtualized environment, what was the pain point, what was the objective, I don't think any executive came down and said, "Hey containers are awesome, let's just do stuff because it sounds cool." What was the real business driver for what you were doing? >> Right so like I mentioned in the keynote the number one priority that we have for my organization is to make developers productive. We take this as a challenge where any employee, a developer who joins Visa, we want them to be able to write code and publish code into production on the same day. That's what we're aspiring to go. That was the driver. So we're looking at every minute of what it takes to get the provisioning and we're trying to streamline it so that we can deliver that vision quickly. >> Great and virtualized environment going to containerize, can you talk, how big a scope is this? Did it change your underlying infrastructure itself or can you maybe flesh that out a little bit for us? >> Right so when I talk about provisioning our, in general, managing operations for a large organization, a large enterprise, I look at it from two dimensions. One, the one-time provisioning. But then most of the challenges and the opportunities are in the life cycle, right? Yes virtualization solved the one-time provisioning, but we haven't really solved the managing the lifecycle. It still takes, even if it takes one day to create a provision, the virtual image, the pre provisioning tasks, post provisioning tasks, and care and feeding of it, whether it's patching and maintenance, doing tech refresh, it's still very intrusive and very painful. So when we looked at the whole problem we want to solve all of them at once and that's where the containerization and micro services attracted us. >> And Swamy, when this rolled out, I mean is this 100% your environment in this new one or have you been doing a phased approach? How does it look today? >> I wish it's 100%, but we are in the early stages, so we have one application, it is now a tower of success, and we have about five other application teams that are looking into it. And then we build more towers of success and then this becomes kind of like the part of the center offering. >> The initial implementation was a pilot, a showcase of the technology, or explain where the idea for this initial implementation came from. Was it driven from the business level or from the technical level? >> I'd say partnership between the application team and the infrastructure teams, the boundaries between the two teams are kind of blurrying. And at Visa one of the great things that we have is that we collaborate very well internally. So when we wanted to do have this mission of making developers productive on the same day, when an application team is going through the refactoring process we basically said, "Hey, maybe we can join forces" and we have a good collaboration and we said, "let's do it together". >> So there was a refactoring project already underway and then containers and Docker came into the overall equation essentially or that project. >> They both came at the same time, they both came at the same time. It's a perfect marriage at the time. The timing of when we want to do refactoring and the timing of when we want containers came at the same time. >> So you're saying it was a success and then essentially it was improved on internally within your development organization and other, other, tell us other, what other areas of Visa are likely to become containerized fairly soon in terms of before applications. >> There are about five other groups that we're looking at. That still is work in progress. The next use case that I'm excited about is the, kind of like the batch use case, right? That's about as much as I can say about the rest of the five are close. >> Understood. >> Swamy, there's a certain set of data services that you get when you have a virtualized environment. Can you talk to us a little bit about that difference going to containers as to how much was seamless, how much did you have to plan, I think about things like high availability security, that I'm sure important to you guys. >> Right see... Yeah, so the way we have done the implementation, used a kind of process the same high standards that we have with availability and security as well, in fact I would argue that availability is higher because now we have cemented those microservices in a way where we know exactly when we need the help of another service. And then we compare this so from an availability perspective, it's better than what we have today, which is already good, because we can scale up and down, we know when the system is going, needs more resources. And from a security perspective, even before the implementation we made sure that it is rock solid and it has the right controls for us. >> One of the slides we liked that you did in the presentation this morning was talking about utilization. We know that most companies are not utilizing most of it. First of all, forecasting what you're going to use, when you're going to use it, is really tough. You either overdo it, you under do it, you've got way too much gear sitting there. You're really transforming yourself to be an internal service provider, do you have any key metrics as to how much greater utilization, what that means to the business, just total cost that you need to be concerned with? >> Right. See the absolute numbers so far, we'd like to see our infrastructure be 90% utilized, 80% utilized, is kind of old school in my mind. >> Stu: That's audacious. >> That's your goal. >> Say that again? >> That's your goal. >> That's your target utilization. >> Well I don't have a target utilization. That's what I'm saying is that that, using a particular watermark as your target utilization is old school. It should be elastic. >> Stu: Oh okay it's old school. Yeah yeah. >> Because sometimes when we do campaigns, we don't know what type of a workload we will get, we just are focusing on just run enough and then only grow when you need, this is why we call it a just in time infrastructure. That way you only provision when you need it, when you're done with it, we'll do provision. With the microservices and how fast we can get the containers, you can do that. >> Okay how about the operational impact, what you're doing, how much retraining did you do, were there professional services you needed to have come in, was it changing roles or was there any change in headcount? I know it's just the one application you've done so far, but where is it today, what do you see as you roll this out further? >> From a operation perspective the skill set mix will change. Instead of having a eyes on glass when you have an operational issue, we are working in a predictive environment where you can proactively say that a particular outage can occur, so the skill set may change but in terms of the size and scale of the operation, at least the way that we are in, we don't see a whole lot of shift there. >> Swamy, were there any surprises when you rolled this out or anything that you look back that you say, "Okay well now when I go to the next five groups I'll be able to say, oh we'll do this faster, you need to plan this a little bit differently." What lessons learned can you share? >> Right, so there were four lessons learned that I mentioned and one is it's very important to have the right granularity for your service, right? When you take a monolithic service and then divide it into 10, 12 microservices, you got to make sure that the granularity is right, that's number one. And you don't want it to be overly granular, or you don't want to keep it monolithic. And the second thing is you are releasing that to microservices, however, from a memory perspective you have to make sure that you're not asking for a whole lot of memory as well. You cannot have the same heap size as if a big monolithic service. Microservices needs to have smaller footprint so it can run more and get the more utilization of your hardware. Because everything is memory bound. Even in your virtual environment it's not a CPU, it's all memory bound. >> Alright, Swamy, you've been interacting with a lot of people at the show, what's your take of the show so far, interaction with your peers, are you able to get, find a lot of other companies that are, have similar challenges that you can kind of share experiences with? >> So a couple of things that I liked about the announcement that Docker has made. One, the enhancements that they are making on the security are very valuable. And then the whole notion about secure supply chain is very relevant. And the second thing that I liked is how easy it is now to take a virtual workload and then putting them in the container. So I think the announcement that they made was attractive. As far as the Expo floor is concerned, we're not putting our workloads in public clouds anytime soon. We're still building private clouds and then hosting it inside, where a lot of people on the expo where they're offering services for the cloud. For example Datadog and stuff like that, I wish we had seen more on how to manage large container deployments from an Operations perspective and any innovation there. But I also haven't had a chance to completely sweep through the floor also. >> In the keynote I heard it was containers are everywhere you want to be. Did they take the tagline from Visa? Everywhere you want to be? >> Maybe. Maybe. I did not notice it, but yeah. >> Swamy, want to give you the final word, as you look out, things you're excited about in the ecosystem or anything, feedback that you'd give to be able to make your job easier, help you move this forward even more into your environment. >> I think the one thing that I would say is that in order to be able to transform an enterprise idea and take the innovation as rapidly as we would like to have every enterprise, the infrastructure and application teams have to partner. And the boundaries between them should be collapsed and they should innovate together, collaborate together. That I would say is number one. And number two, the ecosystem is becoming complex. It's difficult to navigate what should be, because for every single member of, or part of the ecosystem, you have more than one choice. So picking up the right stack is very important as well. >> Alright, well Swamy, really appreciate you joining us, sharing online and the really great kind of encapsulation notes. I had said early on in this wave of Docker it was like, "Oh maybe Docker can help free us from the infrastructure." But of course we know there's relationships, they need to go together, and as we're maturing that complexity is getting better. >> Excellent. >> Thank you so much for joining us and sharing with this community and ours, Jim and I will be back with our wrap up here from the two days of live coverage. Thanks for watching TheCube. (soft techno music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas it's the Cube, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the Cube's coverage of DockerCon 2017 here in Austin, Texas. Getting towards the end of our two days of coverage. Really been geeking out on a lot of the technology here, and I was happy to be able to pull in two guys I know, I've had them on the Cube before, to really go in into how this who container wave is impacting their business, to go into the technology some. So I want to welcome back to the program, first you know John White. He's the Vice President of Product Strategy with Expedient and who I'm happy to see not wearing his football jersey. John, thanks for joining me again. >> (laughs) Good to see you. >> And Joep Piscaer, who is the CTO of OGD. I had the pleasure of interviewing Joep over in Europe last year at a show, so, you know, welcome over to Austin. I think Vienna and Austin, woe meet coma at both of those places. >> Oh yeah. >> So yeah, it seems every time we get together there's a lot of that going around. >> There's always a meet excuse, right? >> Right, so maybe start with you, have you been to DockerCon before? What's your experience been here at the show so far? >> Yeah, so this is my second DockerCon. I've been here last year as well, in Seattle. And I'm kind of liking the vibe this time round. So last year it was really, you know, all about developers. I'm kind of liking it, more about the enterprise right now. You know, as an enterprise guy, work for an MSP, so you know, we deal with a lot of enterprises. And it's good to see that Docker is, you know, giving the enterprise a lot of thought and a lot of attention because, you know, that was one area where they were lacking last year. >> So John, you know, you look at a lot of the ecosystem, you're also a service provider. What's your take so far? >> Yeah, so this is the first time for me at DockerCon. I go to a lot of conferences, so I read the room a little bit differently, I guess, than most. It's been interesting for me. These two days have been jam-packed. I've been soaking up a lot of new knowledge and new vendors, new potential partners for us to look into. But I'll agree, I think a lot of the focus on the enterprise, figuring out maybe how this is relevant to them and the future is actually a really great way to go and I hope to see more of that. Looking for those use cases right now is a little bit hard, especially when you have people like Visa that have been working on this for, you know, a few years now and only six months into production. We're just so very, very early in this technology that I think we're still walking, maybe, probably still crawling even, through it. >> Yeah, before we go into the tech, let's talk about ecosystems. So it's a word that I heard over and over again in the keynotes. You know, John, I was talking with you at VN World at AWS Free Invent, as a service provider sometimes, it feels like body blows and head shots, going to some of these shows because how they're partnering with you, how do you see Docker? What kind of things do they build? How does that, you know, help or hurt your business? >> Yeah, so Docker is a company, we really haven't worked with them quite yet. The ecosystem, though, is interesting here. There's a lot of new faces here, a lot of faces that I've interacted with on the Virtualization Days, now kind of porting over to here, so, you know, I've already started to reach out to some of them to kind of get an understanding, like for instance, of risks on the network side, what they're doing, how they're actually interacting with Docker. And think that's going to be really important because I think that's going to be one of my bigger challenges in the future, is how I actually network all this stuff together. You know, I can see us definitely starting to work closer with Docker, with Docker Data Center. I think customers are going to demand something like that. And they're not going to want to host it inside of their data centers. They're going to want to host it in probably a third party service provider. >> Yeah, I'm sure both of you were looking at, I think it was the Visa case study, we talked about utilization of what they had and I thought of you guys, cause it was like, oh, wait, big surprise, my utilization is really low because wait, why am I doing this in house when I should be going to somebody to handle that. Your thoughts on the ecosystem, you know, we talked at the Nucanic Show, you know, when you look at technology partners, you know, how does Docker and their ecosystem fit in to your thoughts? >> So it's like a whole new ecosystem to get into, right? So it's kind of discovering from ground zero again, what's the ecosystem look like? Who's doing what, who's developing what kind of new trends? So it's good to be there early, just to get a good feel about the ecosystem, get to know the people and be able to kind of develop a strategy around Docker, because it is early days, right? So it's way too early to go in to a customer and say we have a complete package for you. That's just not going to happen between now and like six months. So the issue really is how you get to a point with the customer where you can jointly develop a strategy to get Docker into your service profile. And going to events like DockerCon really helps to actually kind of achieve that goal. >> So you guys are always in an interesting space, you know, you're consuming some of the technologies from the vendor, you've got your customers, you know, putting demands on you, so you know, CTO sets strategy, why not dig in for us a little bit as to what your seeing, what's good, what's bad, you know. There's networking, there's storage, there's security, you know. Maybe John, start with you. I don't know if networking would be the one to start, but I'll let you choose. >> Yeah I think we're going to run, I mean, we're an infrastructure company. We've been running virtual infrastructure since 2007. We know it, we understand it. And you start to understand where the pitfalls are. This is going to change it. I mean, the bin packing problem is going to change significantly over the next few years. Some of the people, I went to their use case session, they're saying they're seeing 70% reduction in resources. Now, they're not saying 70% reduction in resources, you know, just because they made things smaller. They just packed them tighter into a smaller group of boxes. That's going to be interesting. And you know, discovering how we can actually provide that at the true infrastructure layer for our customers is going to be a really big challenge for us. And it's going to revolve around us having pretty strong partner relationships since we don't do the professional services to kind of figure out how to transform your application. We're going to need somebody to help us there. We're going to handle the infrastructure underneath. >> Maybe explain that a little more. Like you know, if I'm saying well, if I'm Amazon and I can just do that, they've got kind of infinite resources there and therefore as a customer I don't need to worry about that, you know. What do you have to worry about? And should your customers care or will you make that transparent to them? >> Let's think about, you know, we went to virtualization. We had P to V converters, right? We all used them, we all tested them. We said okay, this physical server now can run as a virtual server, that works. You really don't have, even though they announce something where you can take a VMDK to an image, Docker image, you really don't have a clean way to do that unless you think that building a big monolithic container is going to save you time and money. Maybe it will. But there's going to be some sort of application transformation that you have to do to be really successful inside of this new platform in the future. And that's something where I think you're going to have to have partners really ingrained to help build the cultural, help build the bridges to the operational teams, help to show the value to the executive team and why you're going to save money, why you're going to do something more secure, you know, how it's going to benefit you in the future. And those are just pretty big challenges that are out there in front of us. >> Joep? >> Yeah so that's the major issue, right? So from our perspective, we use ISVs for the software we deploy for customers, you know, a lot. I'd probably say like 90% of the applications we deploy, we didn't develop or the customer didn't develop in house. It's just all, you know, standardized V stuff. And having a networks of ISVs around you to help you transition from virtual machines into some kind of container format, to address the bin packing problem, that's going to be, that's going to be the biggest challenge to solve, right? It's not just packing up an application and moving it into a container. It's actually transforming it from whatever it is now into something more efficient, more scalable, more resilient. And that's you know really the issue we're trying to tackle, as far as looking at the ecosystem, looking at how to build our practice around it. It's not just infrastructure anymore. It is really all about the application now. So you have to develop a whole new set of skills. You have to develop new people around you. You have to develop new services. And that's interesting because it does have real advantages for the customers, but it's going to take a while to have that mature to a level the customers can actually pull it off the shelf and implement it in their own companies. >> One thing I think on the infrastructure side that I just was in Visa's use case, they were talking about how they're doing it on bare metal. That's different for us. We've been running virtualization for so long, now to say to the engineers, hey look, we're actually just going to run a Linux operating system, or even a Microsoft operating system now on bare metal, and we're going to run containers and get rid of that hypervisor. That's going to be a pretty unique conversation to have. We've already created the monitoring tools and unit performance tools, looking all at the VM. Now we might go back to just running servers again. It'll be a new challenge. >> Yeah really interesting. So there was a lot of focus in the keynote about how they've been maturing security. Want to get your take on that. You know, two years ago it was like oh wait, that's one of the biggest barriers to putting things in production. It feels at a high level like we've made some good progress. Is security still an issue? Are you comfortable with where we are? Maybe anything that still needs to be done? >> You want to go first? >> Sure. (laughing) >> This is a can of worms. >> Yeah so security is always, you know, it's always a can of worms. But you know, my take on it, it doesn't actually matter if it runs in a container or VM. Like 90% of the threads come from outside the compute right? So it's going to come off the network, off the internet, off the users. So really from a security perspective, I'm kind of ambiguous which way to go. But again, the ecosystem story comes back into play, right? Is the ecosystem mature enough to actually deliver security products for containers? The VMware ecosystem was completely mature in that sense. It can just pick off, you know, 20 products and basically do that same thing. And for Docker, that's going to be, you know, a challenge to say the least, to get up to a point where you can pick whatever you actually need. And it's going to be a discovery and it's going to be a little while before we get there. >> Yeah, so I have to read through your tweets to find the answer, John? >> No, no, I'll give you, I think well, security's a mess kind of in general but it's, I think some of the things that they're doing you know, early on, that before there's any critical mass adoption yet, making sure encrypted traffic and handling TLS certificates in an easy fashion, that's great. I was impressed with the notary function, where it can go and look at the image and know if there's any vulnerabilities, and go and identify the problems. It really helps the developers kind of understand the operational asks that people actually have to make sure, okay look, you're going to roll out this new image, this new code? Let's make sure it's secure to get started, at least. We all know it's going to kind of, maybe fall out of the norm once it actually gets up and running operational and production. But let's make sure it's secure at least to boot the thing. >> What do you see containers, when does it have a significant impact on your business? Does it transform the way that you deliver your service? Will it change pricing? >> Yeah, I think it's going to. I mean, a few things that are going to happen. I mean, it's going to increase in scale, so you're going to have more to actually manage, which is going to be a new challenge. That's one side of it. But you're going to probably end up consuming more infrastructure in the long run. And that infrastructure is going to get commoditized even more than it already is right now. And you're going to have to make sure that that's down to the minimum dollars or the minimum cents that you need to provide that very small segment of actual storage or RAM or compute that you need. And that's going to really shift the business. And especially when you look at a lot of containers where you have some that may be run on a monthly basis, a lot of them are only going to be running maybe a few seconds, a few minutes. So you're going to have to have very granular tracking and understanding for that show back charge back to the CFO that you're actually running the services for so they know exactly what they can expect for the bill that month. That's really different than what we're doing today. >> You know will that be a challenge for you to continue to compete against the public clouds, where it seems that that's a more natural fit for some of the pricing and the models that they've built? >> I don't think so. I think this is something where you're even getting more high touch with the application. You know, data sovereignty, that was listed up there I think on Met Life's use case today. That's always going to be important. They're going to want to know where the data's living, why it's living there, how to audit, how to do compliance against it. That's always going to be really important, that'll make us be a little bit different than the public cloud. >> Alright, your business? >> So I agree, right. So the pricing is going to be something to kind of readjust. But I kind of see a lot of advantages in terms of security, the secure software supply chain. So I'm really liking that message. So instead of having a big unknown in terms of whatever is coming into your data center, you now can say with a certain degree of certainty that the application you are running is secure, it's been tested, it's been tested by the compliance team. And I think enterprises in the end are really looking at how to mitigate those security risks and having such a secure software supply chain is absolutely going to help in that respect. >> Alright, so what feedback would you give to the community, what more do you want to see developed, areas where you think we need to make some progress, you know? Joep, I'll start with you. >> So the biggest is monolithic applications. So a lot of enterprises still have legacy applications. >> Well, you've got Oracle in the Docker store now. >> Yeah, exactly. (laughs) But it's still a monolith, right? So addressing that problem one way or the other, but especially in terms of availability, recoverability, I think that's one major area where Docker needs to focus on in the coming months. >> Alright, so John, same question, with a little twist for you is what you'd like to see and anything that if you're talking to VM Ware, what they should be doing more in this space. >> Okay, yeah. I think, I want to see from Docker a lot more use cases. I want to see them start to build their user group and community a little bit more, a lot more sharing needs to occur. The use case session that they had, it was basically two days of use cases running, were great. A lot of those companies, I had a hard time relating to my customers, I mean, Visa, Met Life, they're huge. I really don't, our service, you know, small to medium into the large, but those, they don't have the same use cases. So continue to focus on, you know, how we can actually work on this together with these new customers. On the VMware side of it, VMware's in every data center in the world. And they have a story around VIC, they have a story around Photon. They need to continue to figure out how to build that bridge to, maybe that VM decay to container tool that they have. Work on it together, see what you can do together to take this on to the next level of understanding of really how we can actually transform these applications that were all built in Vms. >> Alright, well, John, Joep, really appreciate you guys coming through. You never hold back sharing your opinions on it. Look forward to reading, I'm sure you'll probably do write ups from the show, too. And we've actually got Visa on as our next guest here. You've probably given me a couple of questions to ask there too, when I go into it. But getting towards the end of Cube's coverage here at DockerCon 2017. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas. It's the CUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, with my co-host, James Kobielus, who's been digging into all the application development angles. Happy to welcome back to the program, here at DockerCon, Yaron Haviv, who is the co-founder and CTO of iguazio. Yaron, great to see you. >> Thanks. >> How have you been? >> Great, great, been busy traveling a lot. >> We talked about how some of us celebrated Passover recently, I had brisket at home. We had Franklin's Barbecue brisket here. Anthony Bourdain said the only two people that know how to do brisket well, are Franklin's and the Jews. (all laugh) >> So we had Passover, a lot of good food, but also a lot of traveling. I was also in a Kubernetes conference in Europe and here. Prior to that, big data show, so it's a lot of traveling. >> Kubernetes, Docker, Ecosystem. You've been watching this, your company is involved in it. What's your take on the state of the ecosystem, and what do you think of the announcements this week? >> You know, I have also been to the Kubernetes conference, and you see those are still small, relatively small shows. And it's mostly developer focused. What we see is that Kubernetes is taking a lot of share from the others, because most of the guys that adopt are not enterprises yet. It's people that have a large enough infrastructure that they want to use it internally, and Kubernetes is a little more flexible. And on the other end, you see Docker trying to create a greenware-like, shrink wrapped, version of container infrastructure. So we see those two, and there's obviously the Public Cloud with their fully integrated stack. Now, what I notice here in the show, and also when, a couple of weeks ago, in the Kubernetes conference, think about the stack. It has, let's say, 20 components. So someone like Amazon brings the entire 20 components, and it's fully integrated and secure and networking and storage and data services and everything. And here, what you'll see, is a lot of vendors, this guy has those four components, the other guys have those five components, in some cases they actually overlap. So this guy will have three unique components, and two other components, et cetera. And it's very hard to assemble a full blown solution. So as a buyer, how do you decide which components am I going to choose? That's part of the challenge, and also helps serve the cloud guys. >> I remember when I first joined at Wikibon, we talked about, the hyperscale model was you take your team of PhDs, you just architect your application and software. You're the enterprise though, you don't have that talent. So you will spend money to buy that packaged solution. I want to buy it as a service, I want to buy it easy. Where do you see the maturity of this market, and how that fits for, and what can the enterprise consume, how do they do it? Or do they just go to platforms? >> So this is why our positioning was, it was a platform. We are not a component. We are a fully integrated system. We have multi-tendency, we have security, we have data lifecycle management. We integrate with applications, we have our own UI. But it's focused more on the data services. So if you take a dozen Amazon data services, you need to send Dynamo, and others, and object and file. We basically pack all of them, because data is the biggest challenge, as you know. High volubility, versioning, reliability, security. The biggest and toughest challenge is the data. And once you solve that one, the applications, they all become stateless, and that's much easier. There still needs to be a bigger ecosystem around it, which is why we are doing a lot more work with CNCF. And trying to create standards for the different interactions between those components. So when a buyer goes and buys a certain component from one vendor, it doesn't necessarily lock in to that. They can just go and modify it in the future. I think once you solve the data problem, of the persistency, which is sort of the toughest challenge in this environment, the rest of it becomes simpler. >> One of the questions James has been asking this week, is where analytics fits in? I look at your real-time continuous analytics piece, not an application that I heard talked about too much, maybe we can get your viewpoint on it? >> And the relevance is, of course, much of the application development that is going on, the hot stuff, is related to artificial intelligence, on streaming analytics, clearly continuous. >> Which is where we focus on. Some of the things that I try, to work with different communities, it's explained, that right now we have bifurcation, we have the Apache ecosystem, and we have the Docker ecosystem, totally separate ecosystems, and by the way, you know that cloud is where most analytics happen. >> James: Yes. >> So basically, analytics and cloud technology have to converge. This is what we have been trying to pitch, is why do you use YARN, as a scheduler, where I can use Kubernetes, and it's more generic. Because I can schedule any type of work. So this is something that we are trying to push, and all this notion of continuous integration, when we say continuous analytics, it's not just about the real-time aspect, it's also about the continuous development and integration. >> James: Yes. >> So you actually want this notion of server-less function, which is one of the things I like. Also, just immutable code and infrastructure, you want to adopt those notions, so analytics is going to go into real-time, more and more. So that means, unless I have my connected car pipeline that I get streams, and I process it, and I generate insights. What happens if I find a bug in my application, or I just want to enhance it, and create another feature? So I want to be able to just push a new version, of my analytics code into some platforms, hopefully ours. >> You also want to train that new algorithm as well, to make sure it's fit for whatever specific... >> Yeah, but you have to have this notion of continuity, which means all the integrations we did, have to be different, it has to be a lot more atomic. >> Yeah. >> It has to be check-pointed. All those things that I can basically knock down my analytic process, and relaunch it, and it goes seamlessly and continues. And that's not the Apache model, to play around at bootcamp enough, it's a lot more Legacy kind of approach, which I don't connect to too much. >> Yaron, maybe complete out the stack that you're building, how does serverless fit into this also? >> Okay, so basically, we are building all the data engines, we are doing streaming, we are doing objects, files, NoSQL, SQL, for us it's all integrated into the same very high performance engine. We also have built in analytics, so we can build things like joints and aggregations, and all of the computations on the data as it injects, and it could basically present itself as many different things. Now one of the things we get asked from customers, and we demonstrated that in Strata, let's assume I'm throwing an image into this thing, I want to be able to immediately analyze the image, and say if there is a face, if there is something suspicious about the picture, or maybe even simple things, like extract meta-data information, like geolocation of the picture, so I can do something with it. So we had to develop internally, an event driven process, we didn't call it serverless internally, where you throw data, and it immediately launches and triggers a process, which is a Docker container based process. It has high speed message bust integration into our data platform, that immediately invokes and processes that in a very elastic fashion. So if you throw thousands of objects, it elastically generates multiple workers to work on that, and that's also how we design things like DR, and backup internally in our platform to be very flexible, so we can build DR to S3. How do we do it? We basically have serverless functions that know how to convert the updates into a continuous stream of updates, and then they just go and there is a small code that says "Go right to S3". And that allows me a lot flexibility to develop new features. So this is all this notion of data lifecycle management, with every advance in our product, is actually based on serverless functions, we just didn't call it serverless. One of the things that we're working on with the community, is trying to detach that portion from our product, and contribute it as an open-source projects, because it's much faster and much more optimized than what you'll see, including IBM Whisk or Amazon Lambda implementation of that. >> Are you working with the Apache... Are you working in the context of the Apache framework to expose, for example, machine learning pipeline functions as serverless functions? >> So again, Apache is not the right necessarily place to do that. >> You can do them in Spark. >> I do them in Spark and all that, but we do want the Kubernetes environment to deal with all the constriction requirements for that thing. The way that we do, for example, tensorflow integration is we may expose file into tensor float, on one end, to be able to look at the image, and the same time the metadata updates, so what the image contains is exposed to tensorflow as sort of a key value store, or document store. It just updates attributes on the same image. So the way that we work now with healthcare, an MRI image lands and something looks at the MRI image, and senses cancer. Basically, you can mainly attack the same image, with records, which fields say contains cancer by this guy, take picture of this guy. And then, when you want to run a query, and say, you know what, give me all the MRIs pictures that contain query, it now flips and acts like a database, and you just pull all those images. It's a different approach to how to do those things. >> Yaron talked about Docker containers, Kubernetes, serverless, how do virtual machines fit into the environment? >> I had some interesting conversations at Kubernetes with some friends that are high ranked in this industry, without disclosing, do you really need openstack in between bare metal and containers? Because the traditional approach is, Okay, we have bare metal, we need to put virtualization layer for isolation, and then we need to put Kubernetes or Docker. And we figure out that very little amount of risk, actually, in putting, especially with the new security, things around containers and image signing, and what we do, which is authenticating the container, not the infrastructure on data access, network isolation, all those things that eventually can collapse and eliminate virtualization, but not for every application. Some applications which are more traditional Legacy, the application may still require VMs, because it's quite a different philosophy to develop microservices and develop VMs. Apart of what I see here in the show is not everyone internalizes that. People still think in the notion of Here's my lightweight VM, that happen to be called Docker container, and I'm going to give it the volume, and I'm going to create snapshots on that volume, and all that stuff. But if you think about it, what is really microservices? It's about allowing this elasticity, so the same workload can spawn multiple workers, it's the ability to go and create update versions, it's the ability to knock down this container anytime I want, and just kill it and launch it in a different place. You know how Google works, or Amazon or Ebay, or all those guys. You're basically killing containers on purpose, to basically test their system. All this notion that my configuration and my logs and all that stuff, sits inside the container, is not cloud native, and it doesn't allow this elasticity that you want if you're building a Netflix or an Ebay, or a modern enterprise infrastructure. So I think we need to put those two things aside. You have Legacy applications, keep them in the VMs. You have new workloads, you need to think of data, and data integration, and microservices differently on something which is entirely stateless. The image of the container builds from the get. OK? And create a Docker image. And if you want to go to a different image, you just go and recreate, from source, the same image. The data for that image needs to be stored in a data facility like a database or an object or something like that. >> Yaron, final question I have for you is, talk a little about the customers you're interacting with, talk about the people that are here, as you said, there's a spectrum of how far along they are in the thinking. You're pretty advanced in some of your architectural thoughts and opinionated as to where you're going. Where are the customers today, how many of them are ready for the future versus sticking to what they have got? >> So what you mentioned before, part of the key challenge for enterprises is they all want to move into the digital transformation, they all want to be competitive, because some have existential threats, think about even banks, today, where Apple comes with Apple Pay, it kills a lot of the margins they are making from all those small transactions. And now, no one really cares how many branches you have in the bank, because all the Y Generation just goes to their mobile app. Someone like a bank, have to immediately transition and be able to offer premium services, offer better experiences for the mobile application, be able to analyze user behavior, some things that are more strategic. The traditional things that IT deals with like exchange server management, SAP, all those Legacy things will move to the cloud, because there's no real value there. And what you see is more and more enterprises thinking about how do we generate the differentiation, which is more about analyzing data, and being able to provide better service to the customers, and the biggest challenge is they don't know how to do it. Because what the industry tells them, Go to Apache, and take a dozen of projects, and now integrate those and figure out the security problem, and you know what, you want to add Kubernetes, that's from a different story, but let's try and glue this together, and that's extremely complicated. So what we are trying to do is go to those customers, say you know what, we're building a full blown solution, fully integrated, security is baked in, all the different data services, it integrates with things like Kubernetes natively, we actually do the extra mile, we actually build Spark and tensorflow, and the images that contain everything, including support for us, that you can just launch Spark and it connects and works. We want to make life easier for those enterprises to solve those key challenges that they are working on. And this is working extremely well for us, actually the challenge we have, we only have, I think, two sales guys and we have a huge pipeline, and we can't really deliver for most of those projects. >> Good challenges to have sometimes, talk about scaling, which has been one of the themes of the week here. Yaron Haviv, great to catch up with you as always. We'll be back with two days of our coverage here, at DockerCon 2017. You're watching the CUBE. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman joining with my co-host Jim Kobielus. We're here with theCUBE at DockerCon 2017. When I talked to John Furrier, he said Stu, at DockerCon, we're going to get Solomon Hykes, the founder. We're going to get Ben Golub, the CEO. And we're also, of course, going to get Marianna Tessle, who is the EVP of Strategic Development. Marianna, thank you for having us back again, we've been having a great event. How is everything with you? >> Thank you first of all, it's great. This is the second day of DockerCon. I think we had a great set of announcement yesterday, and an amazing set of announcement today as well. It's really going great. You know I have been roaming the exhibit hall, and actually a couple of people said this is one of the best shows they have been part of, and this very engaged audience is great to hear. >> From the keynote yesterday, the word that stuck out to me is really scaling. We talk about scaling employment, scaling the ecosystem, and the show itself. I was at that first DockerCon when we were wedged into that hotel room, as Ben joked. We had 100 more people than we told the Fire Marshall. Because it was tight. TheCUBE is usually a little bit smaller footprint than we have at some other shows. But, Austin, first of all, you pick great locations. I mean, San Francisco, Seattle, here. I'm looking forward to... Have we announced yet where next year's is? >> I don't think we've announced it yet. Usually it happens in the afternoon. >> Here in Austin. Talk to us a little about some of those announcements and stuff that you're excited about with growing the ecosystem. >> You know, I'm going to continue the theme you started with scale, and obviously like you said, a lot of things are changing, and scaling. One of the things we have noticed more and more are companies and enterprises have really started to use us more in scale and more in production, more apps, more of that going on. One of the trends we've noticed that actually Ben covered on stage today is that there's not just the leading edge of development and all new apps, web apps, but actually, we are starting to see more of traditional apps coming on board as well. More traditions Ops saying, I want those benefits as well. I do not want to go all the way to the extreme of re-writing my code, and going to microservices. But I can reap a lot of the benefits from Docker rising and putting our tools on top. So we're actually seeing more and more of that. And more and more companies. >> The discussion with Solomon, we talked this morning. He said, Oh, I don't know what Lego set we are. And I said, You know that green, flat piece that you can build everything on top of, so you can have your spaceset, your castle, and all the pieces there. You want to be a platform that can build. One of the announcements you guys had today, it's the modernized traditional applications. Maybe you can walk us through a little bit what that means, you know that mix of microservices verses traditional apps. How you guys see yourself participating in a customer's journey. >> Right. So, when we call this program, by the way it has a nickname, MTA. It's like you said, what we've seen is customers and users that want to have benefit across the board was if they write new code as they have more traditional apps with traditional stacks. What we came up with is a way for you to move from a more traditional to the new and Dockerizing really quickly. One of the things we also announced today, is a go-to market and a program helping customers to do that. We have great partners we announced today and I'm sure we're going to have even more, whether it's Microsoft, Avalon, HPE, and Cisco. What we're going to basically provide is a way for you to very quickly start seeing the benefits. Taking the traditional app, and within days, like five days, you should be able to get it in a modern state and start seeing the benefits from that. It's something that we're going to encourage customers to do very quickly and see the benefits. In fact, we had a customer today, Noran Trust, who's already been doing that, talking about the benefits they've been seeing from this program. >> Marianna, in terms of developer enablement, that's everything to getting Dockerizing, a universal phenomenon for wrapping legacy systems, for refactoring existing code, for building greenfield applications. What will Docker do to continue to improve the experience of Project Moby as an enabler of your ISV ecosystem? Going forward, how do you see the experience of front-end in front of Moby evolving to enable very simplicity and speed of development? >> First of all, I have to say that one of the magic, or secret sauces of Docker is our user experience, and the way we made technologies sometimes that were already available super accessible and super useful for developers and ops and users. So I would say that's definitely something that we have the DNA to do. And a project in Moby, we see ISV's and companies, and it doesn't have to be a company, it could be like users, a company that can come in and collaborate and really create a new component, or a new project from what we're going to put there, and hopefully others as well is a whole set of these Lego building blocks they can assemble. >> Are there any plans of Dockers to provide task-oriented skins or experiences on Moby for different roles, different developer roles associated with particular projects, you know, task, or wrapping a legacy system is a different task, obviously, from developing a greenfield containerized application. So to an extend, will you evolve the tool to enable more task oriented role specific interfaces? >> I would say as far as Moby, and across the company, we do have this realization that it could be that developers started to use Docker first, but actually Ops, and even like we talked about, traditional IT, it's pretty prevalent. So our thought is really to cater to all of these audiences, kind of understand, have a conversation with them and understand what exactly they need and what would make them more productive. An example of what I mentioned with the MTA program, the Modernized Traditional Apps, that one is targeted more towards an Ops audience. Different things we do, we try to understand our audience and engage with them, and see what's going to make them most productive. Both in terms of tool sets and in terms of how we bring it to them. >> Right, right. >> Marianna, we had the opportunity to have some of the partner keynote speakers on theCUBE, John Gossman on from Microsoft yesterday, we had Mark Cavage on from Oracle, here. There's a lot going on. Maybe give our audience a little flavor as to some of the other partner activity going on that we might have missed if we weren't watching close. >> I think we had the same conversation last year, just explaining how important it is for us that we work well with our ecosystem. It's a big part of our plan and strategy, and again confirmation that customers want to use choice, different things, that we're not alone in the world, and we really want to engage with a vast ecosystem. So you saw from Cloud providers to a more on-prem infrastructure to ISV's to networking providers, storage providers. Like a whole understanding and way to be a full platform, we really need to understand how to integrate and how to engage with that ecosystem, and how to help customers have benefits of the entire thing combined. So we've been really looking at who are the different leaders; Sometimes customers take us there, they're like, hey please partner with this company or that company. Understanding mapping of what is needed, and starting from Cloud, infrastructure, network, storage, management, monitoring, security, all the way to ISV's. I would, since you brought up that fact that Mark was here, Mark from Oracle. I do want to talk about that because I think that is maybe even a bit new and unique. Another thing that we announced today, the fact that we have Oracle, Dockerizing their apps and putting them in Docker store and that is big, and again, to us that is obviously big, but again, big for user. It's a very easy way to get software you really need. And not only that, we announced several weeks ago, a certification program. The nice thing about that, if something is certified in store, you can really use that with a lot of trust. You know it's been tested, it's secure. That we made sure that it followed best practices. We made sure that our support engagement with the publisher. Again, geared toward enterprises that really want to have that confidence of downloading something from the store and just using it. Again, Oracle is kind of groundbreaking in putting their software there, and we're very excited about that and we think there is going to be more to come. We really are looking forward to this being an amazing service for our users who want to really start from components that exist and the components that they can trust and be productive very quickly. >> I'm curious, how do you think of the Docker store in relation to things like the Amazon Marketplace, or you know, many of your other partners have their own piece. There really is no kind of enterprise app store today so what do you guys want to own? How do you integrate with partners as you look at that develop over time? >> For us, Docker Store started as an enabler as we saw more and more need from users to to basically, Hey, I want.. Let's say since I talked about Oracle I want to use a database. I don't want to go and Dockerize it again. If somebody already did it and they're already prepared, they already went through it, why wouldn't I just re-use it? So the fact that you can put things in this building block and then move them around, it actually enables the idea that you can re-use the same component between different users. So basically you have here something you can do once, and many people can benefit. So that's the benefit we see. It started with official images long ago. We saw unbelievable traction for it. Users really love it, it makes them productive very quickly. We wanted to expand it to a wider set of ISV's, a wider set of components, a wider set of apps, and make them available. We, right now, see it as more of an enabler and again it's one of those things, listening to our users, listening to our customers, we saw that that's one of the things that will make them productive really quickly. >> One of the things we saw in abundance at DockerCon this year is customers of Visa, MetLife, and so forth, up on stage, talking about how they are using Docker in their business for actual live applications. In terms of partners, are you focusing on particular vertical industries in terms of partnership with ISV's and VAR's, particular geographies? Give us a sense for where you're going in terms of diversification of geographies and industries, and in terms of your focus on partnerships. >> Yeah, and again different parts of the stack require different kinds of partnerships. Like on the South end of the stack on the infrastructure, we're looking for partners that either provide on-prem or Cloud infrastructure, or they can provide a set of plug-ins that integrate with us and a set of tools that can be used with Docker to complete and enhance the overall experience of users using Docker. So that's kind of one set of partnerships that started from hardware vendors, to different plug-ins. On the North side of it as we look at it, we just talked about the fact that we have... >> Jim: Top of the application, the application services end of the staff is the North, right? >> Exactly, and all the way to the content. What you actually put inside and what you run. >> Data, so forth and so on. >> Exactly. We'll form a set of partnerships there and making sure that those components are available in store, those components are Dockerized, that companies can really use that, and obviously Microsoft is a huge partner for us in the OS and as your others as well. >> The storage vendors, like Veritask and so forth, there is a fair amount of data inside the ecosystem that really you're going to continue to develop a partnership. >> Absolutely, Adera, Quadera, you've seen a lot, and we continue partner and seeing what's needed there. Understanding we are trying to predict where customers are today, where they're going to maybe, what they will need a year or two from now, and be ready for that. >> Marianna, that leads me to my final question. We know where you're going to be in Europe, you won't tell us yet the location of the North American show for next year, but as you look at the ecosystem, how do you see that developing? When we sit down with you a year from now, what do you hope to have as the progress? >> As I look at the exhibit hall, I am hoping that we're going to see a bigger exhibit hall with every single DockerCon. And, not just for fun, but really, it kind of indicates the collaboration we have with the ecosystem. I would like us to be known as a trusted and productive partner for our ecosystem. And a trusted and productive partner for our customer. That kind of knows to work together with all these contingencies to have amazing results. Like you said, we seen customers on stage, we seen the press releases of people say it took me months to get VM going, it takes me seconds to get this now going. So you see the kind of productivity and we would like to enhance it even more and get there faster. >> Absolutely, Marianna, always a pleasure to catch up with you. We've got a few more interviews left, two days of live coverage, for Jim Kobielus, and I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. 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(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker in support from its eco-system partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2017. Happy to welcome to the program one of the Keynote speakers from this morning. It's Mark Cavage who is the Vice President of Engineering with Oracle, and, also joining, is Sidhartha Argawal who's the Vice President of Product Management and Strategy, also with Oracle. You've been on the programs a few times, thanks for joining us again. And Mark, thank you for joining us for the first time on theCUBE. >> Absolutely, glad to be here. >> So, you know, one of the topics we've been talking about, this week, is kind of the maturation of what goes on in containers, and the thing that jumped out at me is, you know, we talk about all the use cases, some of the cool things you're doing, it's like, "What applications do I run in containers?," pretty much all applications that I'm running. And, I've said, the stickiest application that's out there today is the one that your company does. You know, you talked about the Database, talked about some of your products. You know, Oracle, very well known as to kind of where your applications do. So, you know, on the Keynote this morning, I mean, there was actually like a pretty good round of applause talking about your announcement. So, Mark, let's start with you as to the announcement you made, you know, partnership with Docker. and what's happening. >> Sure. Yeah, no, absolutely. Honestly, like we're really thrilled about it. We're really excited leading up to this. You know, as I say, or as I said, there's a few people that know about that Database and know about Java. So, we got a lot of people using our apps. You know, we've been working with Docker for a few months. It's a great partnership. As we, you know, kind of announced in the partnership, or in the Keynote, sorry, you know, we put out basically everything that's important, right. So, we started with the bedrock software that people are using to build all the modern or their traditional, mission-critical applications, they're now modernized. So, database, WebLogic, Java, Linux, that's all certified now in Docker. So, it's a big deal for us. We're really happy about it. >> Great, it's interesting to hear. It's like, "Oh, we've been a great partnership "for a few months." I mean, you know application development, you know, is like decades it takes for things to change. Talk about how this fits into to kind of overall strategy, the platforms you build, and what's happening at Oracle these days. >> Yeah, I mean developers are wanting to leverage the Oracle content in the containerized format so that they could easily, for example, not have to worry patching, upgrading, et cetera. They could easily move those into production. So, what we're doing is we're connecting a lot with developers by having a series of events called Oracle Code Events where these are free events where we inviting developers to come. The topics are containers, microservices, dev-ops, chatbots, machine learning, and it's not about Oracle delivering all the sessions in those events. We opened up a call for papers and in three months we got 1800 submissions for external speakers to deliver sessions. So, it's about a 50-50 split between external speakers and internal Oracle speakers talking about all exciting, sort of, areas in dev-ops, in containers, in microservices. We created a developer portal so developers can go to that portal and, from Oracle, get access to all the assets that are there. We're creating a Oracle Champions program, called Oracle Gurus, so that people who really good, who really want to be blogging and talking about content, they can get recognized by Oracle. So, we're doing a lot to connect with developers. >> That's great. And, you know, in the Keynote, you talked about this is free for test and dev purposes. Got to ask you about, which probably your favorite question, though, is, you know, the audience... You know, I looked on social media and it's like, "All right, what does this mean "when I containerize from a licensing standpoint?" We've all seen kind of, you know, cloud pricing models, if it's, you know, Oracle versus if I'm using, say, AWS. So, what is the licensing impact when we go to a containerized environment? >> I know, honestly it's not any different than we are today, but, you know, we'll be clarifying it over the next couple months. >> Stu: Okay. >> As I said, we'll be iterating a lot with Docker Store and all their software catalog we put out there. It's, you know, stay tuned for more. >> And I think the one thing to add is that, you know, the key benefit that developers get is, for example, if they go to Docker Hub today. You have 80 different images that different people have put up for WebLogic or for Oracle Databases. You don't know which one you want to use, right. But, when you come to Docker Store, Oracle has certified the images and put those images up. So now, you can get support from Oracle. It's certified by Oracle. And then, if you report problems, Oracle knows which images to fix or what problems to fix as opposed to some random images that might be there on Docker Hub. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yeah, that's been a real problem, so it's a big deal. >> Yeah. >> So, we've seen a lot of diversity as to how users can consume the applications. Maybe, give us a little insight as to how things are going in Oracle. I mean, you know, you've got your staff, you've got your cloud, you know, we talked about containers here. I mean, it's, you know, rapid change in something that, you know, overall, I mean, the application they're using doesn't drastically change overnight. Consumption models. >> Yeah, no, you know honestly the company's been going through a huge transformation over the last few years, as I'm sure you've been told, as I'm sure Sidhartha has told you. You know, we're actually containerizing ourselves, internally, across the board. Almost all the new PATH software we're building, almost all of the new IS software we're building, we're building towards that. All of our PATH software, all of our IS software, we're going pay by the hour, fully metered, fully usage-based pricing. >> So, you know, we want to make sure the people can consume in a subscription based format, and it goes across application development, cloud services, across Integration Cloud Services, analytics, management from the cloud, identity, et cetera, everything is on a subscription basis and we're also enabling this on-premise. So, there's developers who work at financially-sensitive companies that have compliance issues, or that work in companies within countries that are data residency issues, and they're unable to benefit from the rapid innovation that's happening in the cloud. So, we're actually providing that same subscription model in their data center. So, we ship an appliance, they start using the appliance, and we're actually delivering the service on that appliance. So, they could do dev-test in the public cloud, and then, you know, do production on-prem where they're meeting the compliance requirements, data residency requirements, and Oracle is managing that environment. You're not buying the appliance. You're actually buying the service just as you were buying it in the public cloud. >> Mark: And the pricing is identical. >> And the pricing is identical between public cloud and what you get delivered as public cloud in a data center, yes. >> One of the things, you know, those of us that watch Oracle for a long time. You know, people have the perception of what Oracle is. I've seen a number of, you know, really good people that I know, Oracle's hired over the last few years. Mark, I mean you were called one, you know, one of those rock star developers. You've got a really good pedigree from the some of the previous clouds. Give us a little insight as to what you see from an engineering culture, you know, architecturally standpoint, you know, is this the Oracle... That, when you joined Oracle, is this what you expected? You know, what's it really like inside? >> Yeah, honestly, as I said, really the company is changing across the board a lot faster than people realize. And that's truth for both, you know, the rock stars that were already in the company and the rock stars that are coming into the company now. You know, you've interviewed the Seattle team before about some of the cloud up there. We've brought in several hundred people from outside companies, from, you know, really strong pedigrees, right, Googles, Amazons, Microsofts, et cetera. We've done a ton of hiring in the Bay Area. We've brought in a lot of start-up talent. We've done, you know... There's been, of course, a few acquisitions. We bring in really solid teams, and then, honestly, just the culture, itself, is changing. Really, you know, transformation to a cloud company is, it actually impacts everything, right. It impacts the way you do support. It impacts the way you do development. It impacts the way you do operations. It impacts everything, so. >> Well, I think, you know, if you think about it, we're going from a company that built airplanes and sold those airplanes to others, for example, Boeing selling airplanes to Air France, et cetera, to actually becoming an airline where you're now not just building the airplane, you're actually flying the airplane, operating the airplane. So, in the Development and Engineering organizations, the engineers are understanding that they need to understand what the impact is on Operations of what they're releasing. They can't say, "Oh, send me the log files. "I'll log a ticket," because by that time it's affected many people. So, one, they have to create transparency into what's happening in production in real-time. Two, be able to respond and react to that in real-time. And the other thing that is a change in culture, both in Engineering and actually across the board including in Sales, is customer success. In cloud, people expect to get value in three months, four months, six months, et cetera. So, having a very significant focus on ensuring customer success within three to four months, right, then, they will renew their subscriptions. They will continue working with us. So, there's actually a very significant change in culture that's happening. And the other thing is, we're not just going after the large enterprises that used to be the bread-and-butter for Oracle, but now we also have small-medium businesses, start-ups, et cetera, saying, "Hey, if I don't have "to worry about installing, managing, configuring, "Oracle Databases, Oracle content, "I can just go use the capabilities that are being provided "by Oracle and pay for it as a subscription." And so, we're really shooting towards developers realizing that the Oracle cloud platform is a open, modern, easy platform. Open, because they have a choice of programming languages, Java, SE, PHP, Ruby. Open, in terms of database choices, not just the Oracle atabase, but MySQL, Cassandra, MongoDB, and Hadoop clusters, and open in terms of choice of deployment shapes, right, where you can have VMs, you can have bare metal, you can have containers, or you could have server-less computing. >> Yeah, you brought up speed. You know the pace of change is just phenomenal. I think about the traditional kind of software life-cycles versus, you know, where Docker is today. I mean, you used to go from 18 month down to six weeks. So, kind of a two-part question. How are you guys, internally, managing that pace of change? And, how are you helping your customers, you know, manage that pace of change? You know, Docker has the CE and the EE. So, you want to be more bleeding edge, everything else, or do you want something that's a little more stable? How do you guys view it internally and externally? >> Yeah, no, that's a great question. Certainly, internally, we're, you know, we're as bleeding edge as... We just talked about this a second ago. You know, we're moving fast. We're shipping software every day. The interesting thing, I find, is actually customers are going through the same transformation. And, most people don't realize when they go to microservices, actually, it's a big organizational change, right. Like, it changes the way that you have to structure your team. It changes the way they communicate with each other. And so, honestly, you know, a huge part... To the previous question, a huge part of this for us is, we need to be doing this because our customers are doing it too, right. So, we need to have empathy. So, we're doing that. >> Well, and I think, in terms of speed, you know, previously Oracle might release on-prem software once every 12, 18, 24 months. Now, I'll give you the example of the Integration Cloud Service. We've had four releases of it, four to five releases of it within a year. So, you know, the rate at which we've actually getting the releases out, getting the content out, means that customers are getting innovation much faster. And also what we're doing is, we're taking input from customers on the releases that have happened so that we're actually prioritizing the input that we're getting plus the roadmap that we've set up to say, "Hey, what should we be working on next?" So, our roadmaps are actually changing inflight. So, it's not like you set the roadmap for the next nine months or 12 months, but you're actually saying, "Hey, but this is the input we got, "and we need to deliver faster," you know, or, "We need to deliver a different set of capabilities "within that same time frame." And I think customers are now getting used to the fact that if they didn't have to get the new build, install the build, manage, configure, make changes, et cetera. They're saying, "I just got the new capabilities. "My application still works "and now if I want to use that capabilities, "I can start leveraging it," right. So, for example, orchestration was added to the Integration Cloud Service. They didn't have to do anything to their existing integrations but now they could use orchestration for more complex integrations if they wanted. >> Yeah, want to give you both a final word on this. Either, you know, conversation you've had with, you know, a customer or partner, or, you know, key takeaway you want to have people beyond what we've covered already. Mark? >> Yeah, no, you know, honestly, I really said it this morning in the Keynote where we really are focused on developers. Developers really are driving decisions these days. We know that. This announcement from us, with Docker, was the first of many things you're going to see. We absolutely committed, so stay tuned for more. >> Mark: One more developer and will, will, will... >> Oh yeah, you told, you warned me about that. >> Yeah, absolutely, Sidhartha. >> I think that, you know, what we've heard is developers are surprised when they find out the capabilities we have to help them build microservices, container-based applications. Being able to have a run time for microservices, being able to have API management for all the API services and microservices, being able to have a monitoring management infrastructure from the cloud so they don't have to install it and having a CI/CD pipeline all provided to them as a service in the cloud, wonderful, that's the feedback that we've gotten for those who've come and tried the Oracle cloud platform. >> All right. Sidhartha, Mark, thank you so much for joining us, giving the update. Congratulations on the announcement today. Know a lot of people will be checking out the Docker Store to understand that is, yeah... Well, we'll have to talk sometime about kind of the enterprise app store, in general, and where these all live, but we'll be back with more coverage, here. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, we're here at DockerCon 2017 in beautiful Austin, Texas, had a great party down on Rainy Street last night, 5500 people and many of them, a good majority of them made it to keynote this morning, but we're checking in with a lot of guests here, happy to welcome onto the program. I've got a returning guest in a new role and I have a new guest, so both of you from Puppet, Deepak Giridharagopal, who's the CTO and Omari Gazitt, who's the Chief Product Officer. We caught up with you at a previous cloud role that you had had. Deepak, since it's your first time on the program, you've been with Puppet for awhile now, can you give our audience a little bit about your background and your role? >> Sure, so, I've, software guy, I've been programming forever, done a bunch of different start-ups, actually lived in Austin and was part of the Austin start-up scene for quite some time, so I went to school here. So, I've been here for maybe 15 years, something like that. >> Is that a Hook'em Horns or is that a? >> It's Hook'em Horns, yeah, absolutely. So, UT computer science and also, fellow Texan, not UT but from Rice so, there you go. >> That's right. >> Owl's are okay too. But yeah, I've been working here for awhile, previous start-up I was at did a lot of email archival and stuff like that, so I was an early engineer there. We ended up getting acquired by Dell, but that was during an era where we charged people based on storage, so the more we could store, the more money we could make, but that was really early on into how you use software to scale out a bunch of systems and things like that, so that's how I got involved with Puppet the project before I actually joined the company, so I ended up using a lot of that stuff to build out all the systems that we had, maintained a lot of relationships with the community, have a lot of patches inside of Puppet core, so eventually joined the company. So now I've been there for about six years, I'm CTO and Chief Architect, so I'm responsible for all the ones and zeros, I guess and overall technical strategy. >> Alright, so Omri, how long ago did you find Puppet and tell us about your role. >> Absolutely, seven weeks ago, so, you know, fresh, brand new but very excited about this new role, as Deepak said, I'm also a fellow Texan. I went to school at the cross-town rival, maybe the different city rival at Rice but, I don't think we've ever beat UT in football, maybe once. So, I don't even know what the Rice equivalent of Hook'em Horns is. I spent many years at bit companies like Microsoft where I helped start .NET and was really deeply involved in Azure as well as well as HP where I ended up being the General Manager and Vice President for the Helium platform. For that I did a number of start-ups, including one here in Texas, in Houston that ended up going public and the fun thing about coming back to Texas. The last time I was here was Open Stack Summit in Austin. It's always going to get great Tex Mex, so really enjoyed that last night as well. >> Alright, so Deepak, you've been with Puppet long enough that you know, there was no Docker in there. >> That's true. >> Containers did exist, can you walk us through, you have an architect role, how does containers impact your product and how your customers are using you? >> I mean, I think it's, there's a lot of interest, I think. There's almost, I don't think there's a single customer or really user that I go and talk to and I talk to a lot of them that are unaware of containerization. They know it's a thing. I do think though that a lot of them are trying to fit it into their brains and I think that's kind of the main role that we kind of play because the products that we build and all the projects that we have, the open source or commercial stuff, it's all about helping people automate, deploy, manage all the software that they've got, no matter what kind of software it is. So containerization to a lot of these folks, they come to us kind of asking, okay, well, I've heard a lot about it or I'm getting a lot of pressure from development teams to start deploying stuff using it, how do we adopt that kind of technology in a way that comports with all the rest of our practices for managing our software, which for a lot of customers, they're still in the process of evolving because a lot of the people we talk to, they come to us to kind of move from more of the older way of managing deploying and automating their stuff into more of a DevOps kind of mindset where rapid iteration, continuous delivery, so the technology is definitely a big part of it, the processes are also a big part of it, but ultimately I think they come to us saying, this is really cool, it seems very different than virtualization, you know, so how do we actually deal with that? How do we enforce security policies on all these things? How do we deploy it? Can we share code? How do we stand up the container infrastructure itself? I don't know anything about software defined networking, now I have to. How do I get that expertise and how do I configure that, manage it and the applications themselves that are containerized now, they're just architected and built, and in many cases, fundamentally different ways than software of previous generations and that requires a lot of uplift of the rest of an organization in order to make that stuff possible. So it's happening, but I think there's definitely a gulf between the, you know, kind of leading edge and a lot of the stuff that we've seen here in the keynotes today, which have been awesome, there's a ton of great stuff they've announced for systems builders and things like that. I can build custom kernels and all kinds of stuff, that's great, but there's a huge gulf between the leading edge tech like that and that tool chain and what I think most enterprises can fit into their heads. What they understand, what they have established practices around and you know, we have to meet in the middle. Obviously we can't bring all the new tech and make it snap to this line of how we used to do things, 'cause that's not going to work, but simultaneously, we can't just shift everybody over to doing absolutely everything brand new because they have this thing called paying customers and revenue generating software that's already running, so, how do you bridge that gap and that's where I view our role is, being that bridge to the future. >> Actually one of the things I liked in the keynote, they said it would be great if we just had this kind of easy button, that we do things but I think, as you said, you help customers take what they have, move them forward, help make it easier. You joined the company, why is it exciting at Puppet these days, how do things like containerization fit into your thoughts going forward? >> Absolutely, I'm super excited to be at the company. I've worked most of my career really serving the developer customer, the developer constinuency, and one of the things that I saw working in the container ecostystem over the last few years is that there really is a lot of excitement from development in organizations around effectively packaging microservices in a new way and the advantages here are real. There is a lot of acceleration that you get but the larger movement of DevOps is actually how you get that agility, that velocity, that Ben was talking about in his keynote today. There's only one mode and that is quick, right, and that resonated strongly with me because we saw, we saw that exactly in large companies like HP and obviously at Puppet now where, at the core of the value that we bring to our customers is helping them transform, helping them do things in a more cross-functional way, in a way where they can accelerate delivery from taking months to taking days or even hours and Puppet's point of view largely comes from the Ops part of DevOps and our customers are asking us, what's our role, what's our evolving role in this new world and that's exactly why it's so exciting to be part of a company that is actually bringing that unique point of view and most of our customers are asking, great, containers, now what? What about all the things that we have to worry about? What about security? What about compliance? What about reporting? What about kind of having visibility into my entire estate of things? That doesn't change just because you go from running things on bare metal to running things in VM's, with containers, we have another order of magnitude increase of the number of things you're managing and so, the management challenges just become larger and our job, the way that we see our job is to really help our customers transition, employ these accelerate technologies like Docker, like containerization, and the container platforms, but do it in a way that, make sure that these operators continue to be able to their jobs, to get the visibility and the control they need to make sure that they deliver on the Dev of the business as well. >> Yeah, I had an interesting conversation with Soloman Hikes earlier on theCUBE here and he said his background was actually on the operations side and when they built Docker it was the developers as their customer, want to throw it out to the both of you, is to kind of that, that developer operator and then kind of your enterprise buyer, how's that dynamic changing? We've watched the whole DevOps discussion for many years as to kind of, who do you sell to, who's actually got budget, who makes decisions? Is it some c-level management that said, oh, I read about this and do it or the developers bubbling things up? Where are things today, what are you seeing? >> Well, I definitely think the sort of, the era of, you have one of two really high level buyers that make all these decisions about everything is going to be architected. It's all going to be built in this way, it's all going to work in this way, this is how, operationally, it's going to work, security is going to be enforced this way mostly by just saying no to things, the way we make things stable in production is to say no to making changes. If IT of the late '90's was a political party or the 2000's was a political party, it would be no, we can't, which doesn't make any sense anymore. So I think in 2017, I view, especially with respect to containerization, I think the big change is around empowerment and I think the DevOps movement, in many ways is about fostering collaboration and empowerment, so you don't want to have a separate security function that just puts, I'm going to secure this application at the very end of the assembly line, that doesn't work, just like it never worked for quality assurance or anything like that. We'll make it work, we'll put QA in at the very end, ideally you want all of that baked in as early as possible and I think stuff like containers, I think the rise of containerization has enabled developers to feel more empowered over a large swath of the staff then they previously maybe had the ability to be. So, if you believe in the idea of a container as being the unit of delivery of software in the future, I mean, that's a pretty powerful abstraction. So if I'm a developer at my laptop, I could put all kinds of stuff into this black box and the power is, I have all the autonomy inside that box. I can do whatever I want with it and that's very empowering, that's a lot of responsibility. I think the flip side though and I think something that we learned as part of the DevOps movement as well is that it can just be about developer empowerment. It has to also be about operation empowerment. It has to be about security empowerment. If you think about it, I think there's a future, I hope this isn't the one that we actually get, but I think there's a future where, for example, all developers are building everything with containers are like great, I can put all the stuff I want in this black box and then, here you go, here you go operations team, here's this black box that you can do anything you want with it, I mean, that's kind of a 2017 tech version of throwing it over the wall, right, because the people with the pager still have to care about what's inside that black box and now, if you have a hundred development teams doing thousands of containers all the time, that's way more black boxes that you have to manage. So if you're an IT director or a CIO or something like that and you have to deal with your entire estate of stuff, that's a pretty gnarly problem and then you have to combine that with all the previous generations of software that you still have and you still have to maintain. So, I understand why our customers come to us a lot of times and ask us, is there a unified way that we can kind of model and manage all the stuff that we've got? How do we see inside a lot of these things that are opaque and they are black boxes so, I'm aiming more for a future where the containers uses that unit of delivery for software but it's used as a coordination point where it's not just developers putting whatever they want in a Docker file, it's developers and Op staff coordinating to figure out, how do we stitch these containers together into a proper application? How do we secure it? Does it meet all of our standards and things like that and that's pretty great. I'm very optimistic about that. That's a place I want to be in. >> I, just to amplify a little bit, it's great to be at a company where the users love the software. Our selling motion typically is a bunch of practitioners at a company really love using our software and then we get a call from the CIO saying, hey, we have thousands of nodes under management, we would like to have a deeper relationship with you, let's go have a conversation about that, so that's a fantastic validation of the value of the product as a tool of empowerment and I would say that, just to echo Deepak's point, it's all about end to end velocity. If you're just making the dev's go faster, you're not necessarily relieving the right bottlenecks and we've seen that, even in our own development. As I've come up to speed on how Puppet does things, some of the impressive pieces of focus really are on our own value steam, how the technology, value stream, in terms of how we get ideas to our customers. We always think about inserting operations folks, security folks, QA, development, product management, project management altogether and collaborating from the beginning of a project or beginning of a sprint and that, in effect, speeds up everything. Again, to echo Deepak's point, if you just make the life of the dev better or faster, you may not actually be solving for total velocity. >> Great point about why you guys are sticky, why your customers love you. Omri, I'm sure you've got great viewpoint, but Deepak, feel free to chime in, the cloud providers themselves, I look at the platforms out there. I mean Docker is a platform provider, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, others out there, some of your previous employers build platforms and they're trying to simplify and add automation and do this thing, why are you guys, is this a big opportunity for you guys, where do you guys become relevant or even more relevant as time goes on with these platforms? You want to start, Omri? >> Absolutely, so, the cloud is the big platform disruption of our time, in our industry and you're either going to ride it or get washed over by it and the most important thing that brought me to a company like Puppet is just this huge opportunity as our customers are moving to cloud platforms with more and more of their workloads, the ability to manage a more heterogeneous set of things becomes even more imperative, right? The more complexity you have, the more you need tools to help you manage through that complexity and so, as we see our customers start managing those in the cloud, our job is to make that friction free for them, so, make it as easy as possible to adopt Puppet in AWS of in Azure or in any of these cloud platforms and on top of that, I would say, we are also moving our entire portfolio to the cloud, to become cloud native. To deliver in a way that again, takes a lot of the burden off of our customer's hands because if you see the move to cloud, one of the most attractive pieces of it for enterprises is that they can give up some or perhaps most of even all of the operations burden to another vendor and that's an incredible kind of efficiency gainer for these enterprises. They don't want to run software anymore. Now, the vast majority of our customers still run software and not just our software, a whole bunch of other software, but their aspiration long term is to be able to hand some of that or maybe most of that management burden to their vendors and that's exactly the journey that we're also on, so that's why it's super exciting to be at a company that sees that opportunity, that vision and the expansion of market that gives us. >> I agree 100%. I think the big change for people that build applications or manage applications if they want to put them on the cloud is like at the amusement park, they have the sign where you have to be this tall to ride, if you want to have your stuff work in the cloud, you have to be this automated to ride. You just have to because otherwise there's no point, I mean, what's the point of putting your stuff on EC2 and I can elastically bring up a zillion instances of something if I have to provision them by hand or if I have to reconfigure them by hand. It just becomes a really expensive, absurdly expensive way to run a traditional workload that isn't ready for something like the cloud so that's way I'm really optimistic about our role and our customers are really, we have a huge amount of coordination and involvement with them trying to get them that automated so that they can take advantage of a lot of this technology. I also think that just the idea of being able to, for a lot of our customers and users, moving stuff onto the cloud itself, that's challenging. I don't think it's as easy. I know there are plenty of people that have tools that do these kinds of things but I just don't find it that easy to simply say, yep, you can just forklift your thing and now it's a cloud app. There's more stuff you've got to do and, in my mind, I think step one, if you have an app and if you have a workload and you want to move it to somewhere else, step one is you got to model what that workload actually looks, how that works. You have to have an understanding of how that's supposed to behave. That way, after you move it, ideally automation helps you move it, that's where our software comes in, but at a minimum, if you've got an understanding of how it worked before, now after you've transplanted it, you can actually validate it works the way that you want it to work. So I think automation is, it's non-negotiable. You have to have that and if you're not using a platform that lets you do that, then, I don't know, you're going to have a really hard time and unless you're planning on having all over infrastructure, 100% of your estate with a single vendor in the cloud, you're going to need a platform that works across everything that you've got, from your mainframe processing all your trillions of dollars of currency transactions or something like that, all the way to the app you built a year ago that you thought was oh current, maybe before you picked up a book on containers and the stuff that you're going to build tomorrow that's going to be cloud native and you don't want 18 different tools for 18 different vendors managing stuff in 18 different ways 'cause that's not really, I don't see that as a path to scaling out what you can do. >> Yeah, it reminds me of another quote that Ben used in a keynote is you need to be past and future proof, so yeah, we're going to have to leave it there, Deepak and Omri, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for watching theCUBE. >> Omri: Thanks. >> Deepak: Thank you very much. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and we're back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is SilconANGLES production of the Cube, here at DockerCon 2017, Austin, Texas. Happy to have on the program Kiran Kamity, who was CEO of ContainerX which was acquired by Cisco. And you're currently the senior director and head of container products at Cisco. And also joining us is Brad Wong, who is the director of product management at Docker. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Brad: Thanks for having us. [Kiran] Thank you, Stu. >> So Kiran, talk a little bit about ContainerX, you know, bring us back to, why containers, you know why you help start a company with containers, and when to be acquired by a big company like Cisco. >> Yeah, it was actually late 2014 is when Pradeep and I, my co-founder from ContainerX, we started brainstorming about, you know, what do we do in the space and the fact that the space was growing, and my previous company called RingCube, which has sold to Citrix, where we had actually built a container between 2006 and 2010. So we wanted to build a management platform for containers, and it was in a way there was little bit of an overlap with Docker Datacenter, but we were focusing on mostly tendency aspects of it. Bringing in concepts like viamordi rs into containers et cetera. And we were acquired by Cisco about eight months ago now, and the transition in the last eight months has been fantastic. >> Great, and Brad, you're first time on the cube, so give us your background, what brought you to Docker? >> Yeah, so actually before Docker I was at actually, a veteran of Cisco, interestingly enough. Many different ventures in Cisco, most recently I was actually part of the Insieme Networks team, focusing on the software defined networking, and Application Centric Infrastructure. Obviously I saw a pretty trend in the infrastructure space, that the future of infrastructure is being led by applications and developers. With that I actually got to start digging around with Docker quite a lot, found some good interest, and we started talking, and essentially that's how I ended up at Docker, to look at our partner ecosystem, how we can evolve that. Two years ago now, actually. >> I think two years ago Docker networking was a big discussion point. Cisco's been a partner there, but bring us up to speed if you would, both of you, on where you're engaging, on the engineering side, customer side, and the breadth and depth of what you're doing. >> You're right, two years ago, networking was in quite a different place. We kicked it off with acquiring a company back then called SocketPlane, which helped us really define-- >> Yeah and we know actually, ---- and ----, two alums, actually I know those guys, from the idea to starting the company, to doing acquisition was pretty quick for you and for them. >> Right, and we felt that we really needed to bring on board a good solid networking DNA into the company. We did that, and they helped us define what a successful model would be for networking which is why they came up with things like the container networking model, and live network, which then actually opened the door for our partners to then start creating extensions to that, and be able to ride on top of that to offer more advanced networking technologies like Contiv for example. >> Contiv was actually an open source project that was started within Cisco, even before the container was acquisitioned. Right after the acquisition happened, that team got blended into our team and we realized that there were some really crown jewels in Contiv that we wanted to productize. We've been working with Docker for the last six months now trying to productize that, and we went from alpha to beta to g a. Now Contiv is g a today, and it was announced in a blog post today, and it's actually 100% open-source networking product that Cisco TAC and Cisco advanced services have offered commercial support and services support. It's actually a unique moment, because this is the fist 100% open-source project that Cisco TAC has actually offered commercial support for, so it's a pretty interesting milestone I think. >> I think also with that, we also have it available on Docker store as well. It's actually the first Docker networking plug-in that it's been certified as well. We're pretty also happy to have that on there as well. >> Yeah. >> Anything else for the relationship we want to go in beyond those pieces? >> We also saw that there was a lot of other great synergies between the two companies as well. The first thing we wanted to do was to look at how we can also make it a lot better experience for joint customers to get Docker up and running, Docker Enterprise Edition up and running on infrastructure, specifically on Cisco infrastructure, so Cisco UCS. So we also kicked off a series of activities to test and validate and document how Docker Enterprise Edition can run on Cisco UCS, Nexus platforms, et cetera. We went ahead with that and a couple months later we brought out, jointly, to our Cisco validated designs for Docker Enterprise Edition. One on Cisco UCS infrastructure alone, and the other one jointly with NetApp as well, with the FlexPod Solution. So we're also very very happy with that as well. >> Great. Our community I'm sure knows the CVD's from what they are out there. UCS was originally designed to be the infrastructure for virtualized environments. Can you walk me through, what other significant differences there or anything kind of changing to move to containers versus what UCS for virtualized environment. >> The goal with that, UCS is esentially considered a premium kind of infrastructure server infrastructure for our customers. Not only can they run virtual environments today, but our goal is as containers become mainstreamed, containers evolved to being a first-class citizen alongside VM. We have to provide our customers with a solution that they need. And a turnkey solution from a Cisco standpoint is to take something like a Docker stack, or other stacks that our customer stopped, such as Kubernetes or other stacks as well, and offer them turnkey kind of experience. So with Docker Data Center what we have done is the CVD that we've announced so far has Docker Data Center, and the recipe provides an easy way for customers to get started with USC on Docker Data Center so that they get that turnkey experience. And with the MTA program that was announced, today at the key note. So that allows Cisco and Docker to work even more closely together to have not just the products, but also provide services to ensure that customers can completely sort of get started very very easily with support from advanced services and things like that. >> Great, I'm wondering if you have any customer examples that you can talk through. If you can't talk about a specific, logo, maybe you can talk about. Or if there are key verticals that you see that you're engaging first, or what can you share? >> We've been working joint customer evals, actually a couple of them. Once again I don't think we can point out the names yet. We haven't fully disclosed, or cleared it with their Prs Definitely into financials. Especially the online financials, a significant company that we've been working with jointly that has actually adopted both Contiv, and is actually seeing quite a lot of value in being able to take Docker, and also leverage the networking stack that Contiv provides. And be able to not just orchestrate networking policies for containers, but the other thing that they want to do is to have those same policies be able to run on cloud infrastructure, like EWS for example. So they obviously see that Docker is a great platform to be enable their affordability between on premises and also public cloud. But at the same time be able to leverage these kind of tools that makes that transition, and makes that move a lot easier so they don't have to re-think their security networking policies all over again. That's been actually a pretty used case I thought of the joint work that we did together with Contiv. >> Some of the customers that we've been talking to in fact we have one customer that I don't think I'm supposed say the name just yet, but we've drollled it out, has drolled out Contiv with the Docker on time. In five production data centers already. And these are the kind of customers that actually take to advanced networking capabilites that Contiv offers so that they can comprehensive L2 networking, L3 networking. Their monitoring pools that they currently use will be able to address the containers, because the L2, the L3 networking capabilities allows each container to have an IP address that is externally addressable, so that the current monitoring tools that you use for VMs et cetera can completely stay relevant, and be applicable in the container world. If you have an ACI fabric that continues to work with containers. So those are some of the reasons why these customers seem to like it. >> Kiran, you're relatively new into Cisco, and you were a software company. Many people they still think of Cisco as a networking company. I've heard people derogatory it's like, "Oh they made hardware define networking when they rolled out some of this stuff." Tell us about, you talk about an open source project that you guys are doing. I've talked to Lou Tucker a number of times. I know some of the software things you guys are doing. Give us your viewpoint as to your new employer, and how they might be different than people think of as the Cisco that we've known for decades. >> Cisco is, has of course it has, you know, several billion dollars of revenue coming in from hardware and infrastructure. And networking and security have been the bread and the butter for the company for many many years now But as the world moves to Cloud-Native becoming a first class citizen, the goal is really to provide complete solutions to our customers. And if you think of complete solutions, those solutions include things like networking, thing like security. Including analytics, and complete management platforms. At the same time, at the end of the day, the customers want to come to peace with the fact that this is a multi-cloud world Customers have data centers on premises, or on hosted private cloud environments. They have workloads that are running on public clouds. So with products like cloud center, our goal is to make sure that whatever they, the applications that they have, can be orchestrated across these multiple clouds. We want to make sure that the pain points the customers have around deploying whole solutions include easy set-up of products on infrastructure that they have, and that includes partnerships like UCS, or running on ACI or Nexus. We want to make sure that we give that turnkey experience to these customers. We want to make sure that those workloads can be moved across and run across these different clouds. That's where products like cloud center come in. We want to make sure that these customers have top grade analytics, which is completely software. That's were the app dynamics acquisition comes in. And we want to make sure that we provide that turnkey experience with support in terms of services. With our massive services organization, partners, et cetera. We view this as our job is to provide our customers what they need in terms of the end solution that they're looking for. And so it's not just hardware, it's just a part of it. Software, services, et cetera, complimented. >> Alright, Brad last question that I have for you in the keynote yesterday, I couldn't count how many times the word ecosystem was used. I think it was loud and clear that everybody there I think it was like, you know, Docker will not be successful unless it's partners are successful, kind of vice versa. When you look at kind of the product development piece of things, how does that resonate with you and the job that you're doing? >> We basically are seeing Docker become more of a, more and more of a platform as evidenced by yesterdays keynote. Every platform, the only way that platform's going to be successful is if we can do great, we have great options for our partners, like Cisco, to be able to integrate with us on multiple different levels, not just on one place. The networking plug-in is just one example. Many many other places as well Yesterday we announced two new open source initiatives. Lennox kit and also the movi project. You can imagine that there's probably lots of great places where partners like Cisco can actually play in there, not just only in the service fees, but maybe also in things like IOT as well, which is also a fast-emerging place for us to be. And all the way up until day two type of monitoring, type of environment as well where we think there's a lot of great places where once again, options like app dynamics, tetration analytics can fit in quite nicely with how do you take applications that have been migrated or modernized into containers, and start really tracking those using a common tool set. So we think that's really really good opportunities for our ecosystem partners to really innovate in those spaces, and to differentiate as well. >> Kiran, I want to give you the final word, take-aways that you want the users here, and those out watching the show to know about, you know, Cisco, and the Docker environment. >> I want to let everybody know that Cisco is not just hardware. Our goal is to provide turnkey complete solutions and experiences to our customers. And as they walk through this journey of embracing Cloud-Native workloads, and containerized workload there's various parts of the problem, that include all the way from hardware, to running analytics, to networking, to security, and services help, and Cisco as a company is here to offer that help, and make sure that the customers can walk away with turnkey solutions and experiences. >> Kiran and Brad, thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, DockerCon 2017, you're watching theCube.

>> Voiceover: Live from Austin, Texas. It's the Cube, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its Ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and joining me, my co-host, for the second day of theCube's program, Jim Kobielus. Really excited to have, not only the founder of Docker, Solomon Hykes, he's also the CTO, Chief Product Officer, did some keynotes here, all over the place. So, Solomon, thank you so much, thanks for havin' us. Congratulations on all the progress and welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thanks a lot! It's a lot of fun! >> So many things to talk about, but let's start with you. How ya doin'? I'm sure there's so much that went into this week. What are you most proud of? What are you most excited about these days? >> Where to start? The cool thing, for me, about DockerCon is I focus on the keynote. We just package up the nice story, try to explain what we're doing, where we're going, and that's a pretty massive team effort. I think it's 30 of us for months preparing, deciding what we want to talk about, working on demos, pulling all-nighters. It's just really fun to see a keynote go from nothing to a really nice, fun story. Then I get to show up and discover all the other cool stuff. I'm like everyone else. I just marvel at the organization, the crowd, the energy. I'm a happy camper right now. >> It's interesting some of the dynamics in the industry. Okay, what's the important part? Who contributes to what? What fits where? Two years ago we had the hugging out as to the runtime and had the Open Source Foundation step in. Big thing at the keynote yesterday, two big things: it was Moby project and Linux Kit. Can you, maybe, unpack for our audience a little bit? What is Docker, the company? What's the Open Source? Who are some of the main players? It was the whole keynote, so we don't have time to get into it. What's real, and what was there? >> You're right, that was the big announcement, the Moby Project. Basically, in a nutshell, we launched Docker and we made it a product and an open source project, all rolled into one. We just kind of adopted this hybrid model, building a product that would just help people be more efficient, developers and ops, and at the same time, we would develop that in the open. That really helped us. It participated in the appearance of this huge Ecosystem. It was a big decision for us. Over time, both grew. Docker grew as a product, and it grew as an open source project. So over time we had to adapt to that growth. On the open source side that meant gradually spitting out smaller projects out of the main one. Now we have dozens of projects, literally. We got containerd. We got SwarmKit. We got InfraKit. We got all these components, and each of those is a project. Then we integrate them. What we're doing now, is we're completing that transformation and making sure there's a place for open source collaboration, free-for-all, openness, modularity, try new things, move fast, break things maybe. Then there's the product that integrates, takes the best parts, integrates them together, makes sure they're tested, they're solid, and then ships that to developers and customers. Basically we're saying, Moby is for open source collaboration. It's our project and all of it. And Docker is the product that integrates that open project into something that people can consume that's simple. It's two complementary parts to our platform. >> Could you talk a little bit about, there's kind of that composable nature of what you're building there. There's what Docker will build from it, and I think you've got a couple of examples of some of your partners. What's going to happen in the Cloud? What's going to happen with some of these others? Walk us through one of those. >> Everything about Docker's modular. So really, if you installed Docker for your favorite platform, whether it's the Mac, Windows, your favorite Cloud provider, Linux server, etc., you're actually installing a product that's an assembly of lots of components. Like I said, these components are developed in the open and then they're assembled. Now with the Moby Project, there's a place to assemble in the open, start the assembly in the open, so that other companies, the broader Ecosystem, can collaborate in the assembly, kind of experiment with how things fit together. The really cool thing about that is it makes it way easier to ports the platform, to expand it and customize it. So if you're a Cloud provider and you see all the pieces and you think "Well, I could optimize that. "I could add a little bit of magic "to make it work even better in my Cloud or in my hardware." Then you can do that in the open. You can do that with a community. Then you can partner with Docker to test it, and certify it, and distribute it as an easy-to-use product. Everything can go faster. >> You mentioned open a lot there. Does that mean that Docker is now closed? There's certain people that are very dogmatic when it comes to open source, so maybe you can parse that for us. >> I think it's the same people that were complaining before that we were confusing our product and an open project. We think of ourselves as having a lot to learn, and there's an Ecosystem that's made of a lot of people and companies and projects that have had a lot of experience with openness in the past. We spend most of our time listening, figuring out what the next step should be, and then taking that next step. People told us, "Clarify the relative place, "open source collaboration and your product." That's what we did. Now, I'm sure someone's going to say, "I preferred it before." Well, we just have to, at some point, chose. The key thing to remember is, Docker does everything in the open, and then integrates it into a product that you can use. If you don't like the product, if you want an alternative, then you still have all the pieces in the open right now. I would say, no. Not only is Docker not going closed, we're actually accelerating the rate at which we're opening up stuff. >> Personally, I felt it was a nice maturation of what you've done before, which was batteries are included but swappable. But we've taken the next step. It reminds me of those cool little science kits my kids get. Where it's like, oh okay, I could free build it or I can do it or I could do some other things. >> We use that tagline. It used to be, Docker has batteries included, but swappable. You can make other batteries and we'll swap them in to the product. We'll decide what's in there. Now everyone can do the swapping. It's a big free-for-all. Honestly, it's fun to watch. >> Is there any piece of Docker, the project, outside of core Docker, that Docker the company will refrain from building, will rely on ISVs to build? Or will Docker the company get involved, or reserve for itself the latitude to get involved in development of more peripheral pieces of the overall project going forward? >> We spent a lot of time thinking about that. Honestly, there's so many different constraints, we just decided we're going to follow the users, follow the customers. We just want a platform that works and solves people's problems. That's the starting point. From there, we work out the implementation details, what technology to use, the order in which to build things. Also, what makes more sense in the core platform and what makes more sense as an add-on. It's kind of on a case-by-case basis. >> Is there a grand vision document or functional service layered architecture that all of these components of the project are implementing or enabling? In other words, will Docker, as a project ever be complete or will it always be open-ended, will it constantly evolve and possibly broaden in scope continuously, indefinitely? >> If you look at the Moby Project on the one side, with experimentations and all the building blocks, I think that's going to just continuously expand. Really, openness is all about scale. There's only so much one company can build on their own, but if you really show the Ecosystem you're serious about really welcoming everybody and allowing for different opinions and approaches, then, honestly, I think there's no limit to how large that project can scale. I think Moby can go into tens of thousands of contributors as open source becomes easier and more accessible, which we're really working on, I think it can go into hundreds of thousands. That's going to take a while. That will, I think, never end growing. I think Docker, the product, the company, the reason we've been so successful is that we've been, well at least we've worked really hard to focus and be disciplined in what problems we want to solve, so it's a more iterative approach. We would rather solve less problems, but solve them really, really well, so that if you're using Docker for developing or going to production, you're really delighted Just every detail kind of fits together. There's a roadmap, of course. We're going to do more and more. But we don't want to rush trying to do everything. >> Solomon, great progress on all of these pieces. I've got the tough one for you. In the last year or so, Kubernetes has really exploded out there. Lots of your Ecosystem is heavily using it. Is it that Docker Swarm and Kubernetes will just be options out there? I look at Microsoft Dasher and they're very supportive of both initiatives. Many of your partners are there. How do you guys look at that dynamic and how would you like people to think of that going forward? >> It's a great case study of why we're transitioning to this open project model with Moby. The whole point is that at any given time, Docker, the product, will not be using all of the building blocks out there. It's just not possible. There's too many permutations. So we have to chose. One of these building blocks is orchestration. A year ago when we decided to build an orchestration, we had really specific opinions on what it should look like, as product builders. We looked around and we decided it needs to be a new kind of a building block. So we built Swarm Kits for our own use and we integrated it. Now that there's an open project for elaboration, we're throwing Swarm Kit in there so that everyone can modify it, extend it, and also replace it with something else. I think the big change, now, is that if you look at something like Kubernetes or Rocket as a container on time. Honestly, I could make a super long list of all the components out there that are really cool and we don't use in Docker. Now you can combine them all in Moby in custom assemblies. And we actually demoed that on stage yesterday. We showed taking some pieces from Docker and taking Kubernetes as a piece and plugging it together and saying "Look, there you go! "Weekend project." I think we're going to see a lot of conversions and reuse of ideas and codes, especially in the orchestration piece. I think over time, the differences between Kubernetes, Swarm Kit, and others will really diminish. We'll just integrate the bits and pieces that make the most sense. I don't really think of Kubernetes as a competitor or a problem. I think of it as another cool component in the Moby Ecosystem. Yeah, I think it's a lot of cool stuff. >> I tell ya, the Kubernetes community is just so thrilled that containerd is now open source. It really solves that issue and really it hasn't been something I've heard a lot, coming into the show. It's one of the themes we wanted to look at, and it hasn't been something that is like, Oh boy! Fight, war, anything like that. Hey! Congrats on that! I want to turn back to your root there. I think about dotCloud to Docker. It's a lot about the application modernization. Fast forward to today, Ben's up on stage talking of the journey. How do we take your legacy applications and wrap them in? What do you think about that kind of progression? We like that spectrum out there to help customers, at least partially, and be able to make changes. But I can't imagine that's when you started Docker that that was one of the use cases that you really thought you'd use. What surprised you? What's changed how you built things? What do you see from customers? >> Actually, you'll find this surprising, but this actually was a use case that we had in mind from the very beginning. I think that was lost in the noise for the first few years in the life of Docker because it became this exciting, new thing. >> Come on, Cloud native, Cloud native! >> Yeah, exactly! Docker has a huge developer community now. We spent a lot of time making it great for devs. The truth is, I used to be sysadmin. I used to be on call. I'm an ops guy first and we learned how to help developers. Developers are the customer. The Docker came out of our ops roots and then it evolved to help the developers. That's something that's now lost in the noise of history. It's a really pragmatic tool. It's built to solve real problems. One design opinion we baked in from the beginning is that it has to allow you to do things incrementally. If Docker forces you to throw away what you have, just to get the benefits, then we screwed up. The whole point is that Docker can adapt to what you're doing. For example, you'll see a lot of details in how Docker's designed to allow for stateful applications to run in there, to allow for your own network model to fit. Before Docker, all the containers solutions, all the paths, required you to change your app. Even things like port discovery. You had to change the source code. Docker did not require that. It gives you extra things you can do if you want to go further. But the starting point is incremental. Honestly, I'm really glad that now that's resonating, that we're reaching that point in the community where there's a lot of people using Docker interested in that, because for a few years I was worried that that would be missed in the noise of early adopters that don't mind rewriting everything. From the beginning, Docker was not just for Cloud-Native, microservices, Twelve-Factor, etc. I'm, personally, as a designer of products, as a pragmatist, I'm just happy that we're there. >> How do you see Docker evolving to support more complex orchestrations for data? For hybrid data cloud, environments private and public? You got the likes of Microsoft, Oracle, and IBM as partners and so forth. They have these complex scenarios now, their customers or petabytes scale and so forth. Where do you see that going, the data, the persistence of storage side of the containerization under Docker going? >> I think there's a lot of work to do. I think over time we're going to see specialized solutions for different uses of data. Data has such a big word. It's like computing. Just like computing now is no longer considered one category but it's specialized, I think data will be the same. I think it's a great fit for this modular Lego approach to the Docker Ecosystem. We're going to see different approaches to different data models, and I think we're going to see a lot modularization and a lot of different assemblies. Again, I think a lot of that will happen in Moby and we'll see a lot of cool, open stuff. We, ourselves, are facing a lot of data related questions, in request for customers. There's stuff in there already. You've got data volumes. And I think you're going to see a lot more on the data topic in the next year. >> Like containerization of artificial intelligence and deep learning and all that. Clearly, that's very incognito so far because, yeah. >> We're seeing a lot of really cool machine learning use cases using Docker already. OpenAI is all on Docker. We watch what they're doing with great interest. >> Are you a member of that consortium? >> Let's say friends and family (laughs). So OpenAI came out of the Y Combinator Ecosystem and Docker is a Y Combinator company. We spend a lot of time with them. I think AI on Docker is a really cool use case. I'm a big fan of that. >> Jim: Cool! Us too! >> Solomon, unfortunately, we're runnin' low on time. Last question I have for you is, there is so many things we can do with Docker now. Here's a bunch of the use cases like, "Oh, I can run lots of applications." Everything from Oracles in the store now, things like that. What is the quick win when you're talking to customers and let's get started? What's the thing that gets them the most excited that impacts their business the fastest? >> Ya know, it's-- >> And it never comes down to one thing, but, ya know. >> Honestly, we keep talking about Lego. I think it's like asking, what's your favorite Lego toy? I think we're maturing in the model. I think Lego is just the perfect analogy because it's a lot of building blocks. There's more and more, but there's also the sets. I think we're consolidating around a few different sets. There's maybe a dozen main use cases. We're seeing people identify with one, and then we're helping them see a starting point there. Here's a starter set for your problem, and then it clicks. >> Yeah, I hear that, and I can't help but think back. You're the big green platform that all my Legos build on. I can have my space stuff. I can have my farm set. Maybe the Duplos don't quite fit on it. It's the platform helping me to modernize a lot of what we're doing. Solomon Hykes, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Likewise! Congratulations on all the progress here, and we look forward to catching up with you the next time! We'll be back. Jim and I will be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's The Cube. Covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (techno music) Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is Silicon Angle Media's production of The Cube, the worldwide leader in enterprise tech coverage and this is DockerCon 2017. We're here at the Austin Convention Center, just had the day two kick-off at the keynote. Really, yesterday was the developer day, today is the enterprise day. And to help me break down the latest news and what's happening in the ecosystem, I grabbed just some guy. (laughter) And of course, that's actually in his Twitter bio, which is why I do this, and I happen to have a good friend of mine, a good friend of the community, Stephen Foskett, who is the organizer of TechFieldDay. Stephen, always great to see ya and thanks for taking time out to get a little casual and dig into some open-source developer stuff. >> Yeah, you know, these are the developers, I'm used to wearing my fancy clothes, but I figured I would try to blend in a little bit here with the DevOps crowd at DockerCon. >> Yeah, I saw one of the demo guys had like a flashy jacket. I figured you'd come in in tails and- >> Yeah, I do usually have flashy shirts and stuff on, but yesterday I felt a little out of place, I mean these guys are, well, a lot of t-shirts here. >> Yeah, so today not as many announcements but it's always interesting. Shows like Amazon, shows like this, it's like, okay, one day let's talk to the developers and one day let's talk to the enterprise. What's your take on that? How is Docker doing with their maturation and what do you see in the marketplace? >> Yeah, I think that's really the key to what they're planning, so yesterday, I don't want to say developer because it was developer and ops but it was basically traditional Docker day, yesterday. And today is all about the enterprise. And I think that Docker had a very clear goal from today and that was to really plant their flag and say, not just Docker Day the center like last year, but that Docker is not only ready to be in the enterprise and not only has the tools to be in the enterprise, but is already there with some major customers. >> Yeah and great customers, had Visa and MetLife up onstage and no better way to say we're ready for enterprise applications than say, hey, Oracle is in the store there. What's your take, anything on the customer case studies Oracle? >> Well, let's take the customer case studies first. So clearly the takeaway from the Visa presentation and the MetLife presentation was nothing more than Visa is using Docker and Anchore, MetLife is using Docker and Anchore. I mean, basically these are massive, traditional companies with absolutely critical workloads, huge security requirements, and they're using Docker in production. I think that, if we would have all listened, Ben could have stood up there and said, "Hey everybody, Docker, MetLife, enterprise, production" and that would have been a substitute for 45 minutes of discussion. Because it's not like Visa's really going to tell us the secret ins and outs of their infrastructure, but they told us the most important thing, which is that a lot of those transactions are running through Docker containers. And that's what Docker wanted us to hear. >> It's interesting. Ben kind of blew up the myth of bimodal IT. And one of the things we'd kind of been looking at and want to get your opinion on, is taking my older applications and just kind of wrapping and moving them. Without changing a line of code, I can bring this into this environment what, you know many of us called for years, 'lift and shift'. What do you think about the modern, building new applications versus the old applications and, of course, customers don't have two IT environments. They usually need to move things together and have kind of a whole strategy. >> Yeah and well, I'm ambivalent about this whole concept of bimodal IT, but I'm not ready to reject it. I think it still matters from an app perspective, from an app-to-app perspective, and I think it's absolutely true that there are multiple kinds of apps. In fact, I think there's probably more than two kinds. I think that's maybe the real problem. You've got the real traditional applications, you know Southwest just announced that they're moving their reservation system forward from some old mainframe to some new mainframe, and that's causing all sorts of disruption in travel. Those kind of applications and then there's the more open systems packaged applications from the '90s and the 2000s and those things can be moved forward. And then there's sort of the applications that can be really modernized with containers and then there's the applications that you can 'microservice-cize' and then there's real cloud applications. So it's not just bimodal IT, it's really octomodal IT. >> And I like that Ben put it up there, it was a journey that they talked about. It's let's get everything on kind of a shared platform and have a way that we can do it the old way, start breaking it apart into more pieces, or totally rewrite. Because we know the migration cost of having to rewrite an application, it's really tough. >> Stephen: It's huge. >> But it's something that, for too long, people were like, 'oh well, I'll just run on that really old application that kind of sucked for way too long,' so I know sometimes I'm getting on my soap box and being like, please, your users hate that application and they'd like to be a little bit more modern. But it's not an easy thing and there's multiple paths to get there. There was an announcement, they called it the 'modernized traditional applications'. Any take on that and how that fits into the discussion we were just having? >> Well they talked about that a little bit today, not to put in too much of a plug, but we actually had a 45 minute discussion of that with TechFieldDay on Monday and it was embargoed. But the video is actually uploaded now and so if you just Google 'TechFieldDay Docker modernized tradition applications', there's a much deeper dive into that and really what that means and essentially, it's a take on the old P2V strategy that we saw in virtualization that it is possible to literally just scoop up a traditional application and put it in a container. But it's doing more than that and there's all sorts of things that are going on here there identifying which components are part of the application, they're helping you set up the network so that the application will connect still the right way. And I think by choice, Docker didn't really want to emphasize all the real nuts and bolts. I mean, they showed a great, well, an amusing demo of this in action with Ben playing the straight man at the keynote, and that's worth watching as well, but it remains to be seen to what extent they're going to be able to modernize traditional applications and containerize traditional applications. >> Okay, so Stephen, one of the things that is probably the least mature in the Docker ecosystem is storage. I know it's something you've spent some time digging into, what's your take on where we are with storage and containers, where it needs to go, what's the truth and reality? >> Yeah, well my, as you say, my background is storage. And I love storage, I really do. But absolutely, Docker, when I first started experimenting with Docker, I was really blown away by the sort of amateur hour storage approach that they took, I mean, it was essentially, here's a company that knows nothing about storage or networking, building a storage and a networking system. You know, what's wrong with these people? But over time, I've kind of, my view has become a little more nuanced. Because I see that Docker wasn't trying to build an enterprise-grade storage infrastructure, they were trying to build a storage layer that would allow you efficiently to deploy containers. The whole idea always was that storage would be external to the container. And if you're using internal container storage, if you're using the layered file systems, you're doing it wrong if you're doing any kind of real IO. And so, you know we saw a proliferation of plug-ins to allow you to use real storage systems, enterprise storage systems. Ben mentions Nimble and NetApp and companies like that. And in addition, we're starting now to see a whole raft of really interesting, basically container storage arrays. So you've got companies like Storage OS and Portworx developing real enterprise-concept storage specifically targeted at containers. And I think that that's really what's going to happen, is we're going to have the containers using the layered Docker storage but real heavy IO and enterprise applications are either going to us plugged-in enterprise storage or Dockerized enterprise storage. >> Reminds us a lot of what we saw with virtualization- >> Stephen: Absolutely. >> We spent a decade fixing that, I actually remember at Intel Developer Forum, gosh was it like two years ago, Nick Weaver, good friend of ours, works over at Intel, used to work at EMZ, goes to this presentation, I get up at the end, I'm like, 'hey Nick, how are we going to solve all these issues like we did for VMware?" And he was like, 'oh my gosh.' >> And it's pretty much the same story, isn't it? >> It is that same story. >> You know, we're seeing basically the same thing, like virtual storage appliances equals container storage appliances. >> The oversimplified thing of it for me is I felt like we moved along faster with storage and networking took a long time in the virtualization layer, and here it's flipped. Networking seems to move along a little bit faster and storage is there and it's a little nuanced as to what that storage solution looks like, it's not just like, 'oh, we put it all in the hypervisor and eventually it works and we do everything in VM layer.' It's like, well, containers are a little bit different. >> Yeah and some of these container storage solutions are really clever. They've take the lessons from virtualization, from cloud storage, they're building distributed storage, it's really cool. But I think there's another thing to think about there too and that's that Docker invested pretty heavily in creating a, I don't want to say a real enterprise networking layer, but a better networking layer for Swarm. And I think that that may be a road sign of what they may do for storage as well. I think we may see Docker developing a more advanced storage layer, maybe not an enterprise storage layer, but at least something scalable, something distributed for Swarm customers. >> Yeah, I want to get just a little broader from you, just your take on storage these days. I look at adoption of Amazon, VMware's going to go on Amazon. Look, Azure Stack's coming out this summer and you know, we're going to have the S2D as the storage layer for what that's built on. What's the storage market look like from the Foskett viewpoint? >> Well storage is really conservative and when you talk about the market and you talk about the technology, these are two very different things. So the technology is rapidly advancing, we're seeing the world is right now being blown away by the current wave, which is distributed, NVMe, ultra high-performance flash storage, exemplified by a company like Excelero, for example. That's absolutely the coolest stuff out there right now. But then the market is still adopting SAN. You know what I mean? The market is still, you know, 'hey, should we implement iSCSI? Hey, should we look at NFSv4?' Things like that and it's a real kind of facepalm thing because you look at the reality of storage and it doesn't keep up with the promise of enterprise storage. But it's, yeah and then there's the whole aspect of sort of cloud storage, off-premises storage and that is also a potentially game-changer for the market. But overall, I would say that you'd be a fool to bet on radical transformation of storage. It's just not going to happen. You know, that's why HP's going to get tremendous value out of buying Nimble. That's why NetApp and Dell EMC are going to be selling a lot of product for a long time. Because although they're innovating and advancing and keeping up with some of these new waves of storage, the truth is most buyers are buying very calm, boring stuff still. >> Alright, Stephen, unfortunately we're running low on time. Why don't you be the final word, let's talk about the community aspect. I loved, you come into a lot of these open-source shows, it's just got a great vibe, enthusiastic, really people that want to learn. And I know that always excites me, it's the kind of thing that you love, hanging out with those people too. What's your take on kind of the Docker ecosystem and community? >> It's wonderful. I mean, it reminds me of how VMware was back, well, the last decade. It's a warm, inviting, exciting community. And one of the things that I really want to highlight here at DockerCon that I've seen is that it's a lot more of a diverse community than I've seen traditionally in IT. I'm more of in enterprise IT and so there's a lot of people walking around that look like me. And looking here, there's a lot of people that don't. And that is fantastic. Docker has done a great job of emphasizing diversity, they've got onsite child care, they've got, I mean, Solomon tweeted that there's 20% women attendees at DockerCon. To me, yeah, the vibe is great, but wow! Talk about broadening IT and talk about modernizing IT. That's modernizing IT. >> Alright, well Stephen Foskett, always great to catch up with you. I'm sure I will see you at many conferences throughout our travels throughout the year and we've got a full day of coverage here from DockerCon 2017. Solomon Hykes is coming on, we do have Visa who did the case study, many other partners, Oracle who made an announcement today. I've got a couple of service providers who actually participated in Stephen's TFDX event here before the event. So stay tuned for all our coverage and thank you for watching The Cube. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Austin, Texas at DockerCon 2017. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the two days of live broadcast, Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program, John Gossman, who is the lead architect with Microsoft Azure. Also part of the keynote this morning. John, had the pleasure of interviewing you two years ago. We went though the obligatory wait, Microsoft Open Source, Linux, and Windows and everything living together. It's like cats and dogs. But thanks so much for joining us again. >> Yeah well as I was saying, that's 14 years in cloud years. So it's been a lot of change in that time, but thanks for having me again. >> Yeah. Absolutely. You said it was three years that you've been working Microsoft and Docker together. 21 years in it, dog or cloud years, if you will. I think Docker is more whales and turtles, as opposed to the dogs. But enough about the cartoons and the animals. Why don't you give our audience just a synopsis of kind of the key messages you were trying to get across in the keynote this morning. >> Okay well the very simple message is that what we enabled this new technology, Hyper-V isolation for Linux containers, is the ability to run Linux containers just seamlessly on Windows using the normal Docker experience. It's just Docker run, BusyBox or Docker run, MySQL, or whatever it is, and it just works. And of course if you know a little more technical detail about containers, you realize that one of the reasons that the containers are the way there are is that all the containers on a box normally share a kernel. And so you can run a Canonical, Ubuntu on user space, on a Red Hat kernel or vice versa. But Windows and Linux kernels are too different. So if you want to run Windows container, it's not going to run easily on Linux and vice versa. And you can still get this effect, if you want it, by also using a virtual machine. But then you've got the management overhead of managing the virtual machine, managing the containers, all the complexity that that involves. You have to get a VHD or AMI or something like that, as well a container image and you lose a lot of that sort of experience. >> John, first of all, I have to say congratulations to Microsoft. When the announcement was made that Windows containers were going to be developed, I have to say that I and most of my peers were a little bit skeptical as to how fast that would work; the development cycle. Probably because we have lots of experience and it's always okay, we understand how many man years this usually takes, but you guys hit and were delivering, got through the Betas, so can you speak to us about where we are with Windows containers? And one of the things people want to kind of understand is, compared to like Linux containers, how do you expect the adoption of that now that it's generally available to roll out? Do I have to wait for the next server refresh, OS refresh, how do you expect your customers to adopt and embrace? >> Well we were able to get this to work so quickly because if you remember, Docker didn't actually invent containers. They took a bunch of kernel primitives that were in Linux and put a really great user experience on it. And I'm not taking anything away from Docker by doing that, because oftentimes in the technology industry, it's easy to make something that was complicated, powerful, but not easy to use. And Windows already had a lot of those kernel primitives, same sort of similar kind of kernel primitives built-in. They had to take out Java javax, I think when Windows 2000. And so it was kind of the same experience. We took the Docker engine, so we got the API, we were using the open source project, so we have complete compatibility. And then we just had to write a basically a new back-end, and that's why it was able to come up rather quickly. And now we're in a mode you know, Windows server updates things more incrementally, than we did in the past. So this will just keep on improving as time goes on. >> Okay, one of the other big announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit. And it was open source project, we actually saw Solomon move it to open source during the keynote, when they laid out the ecosystems for it like IBM, HPE, INTEL and Microsoft. So what does that mean for Microsoft? You are now a provider of Linux? How are we supposed to look at this? >> Yeah. So we're working with all the Linux vendors. So if you saw our blog about the work we did today. We also have announcements from SUSE and Red Hat and Canonical, and the usual people. And one of the things I said in this box, I said look there's the new model is that you could choose both the Linux container that you want and the kernel that you want to run it on. And we're open to all sorts of things. But we have been working with Docker for a long time. On making sure that there was a great experience for running Docker for Linux on Windows. This thing called Docker for Windows. Which they developed. And we have been helping out. And that's basically an earlier generation of this same Linux technology. So it's just the next step on that journey. >> Microsoft's pretty well recognized to have a robust solution for a hybrid cloud. Cause of course you go your Azure stack, that you're putting on premises. There's Azure itself, it's really the cloud first methodology that you've been rolling through and you offer as a service. Containers really anywhere in your environment, baked in anywhere? How should we be thinking about this going forward? >> Yeah absolutely. I mean one of the points of containers in general, one of the attractive parts of containers is that they run everywhere. Including from your laptop, to the various clouds to bare metal, to virtualized environments. And so we have both things. We want Windows containers, where we're the vendor of the container. We want those to work everywhere. And we also, as the vendors of Azure and Azure Stack, and just server system center, and other older enterprise technologies. We want containers to work on all those things. So both directions. I mean, that's kind of the world we're in now, where everything works everywhere. >> Can you square you container strategy as reflected in your partnership with Docker, With your serverless computer strategy for Azure Functions? I'm trying to get a sense for Microsoft's overall approach to running containers as it relates to the Azure strategy. >> In some ways, you can think of this as a serverless functions mode as a step even further. You just deploy a hardware machine and install everything on it. Next thing, you'd have a virtual machine and you install everything. And then you put your code and all its affinities to the container. And with serverless with Azure Functions, it's like, well why do any of that? Just write a function. Now at the same time, we think there's lots of reasons. Under the covers, all of these past systems, going all the way back, that's how Docker started. Run a container underneath the covers. in the same place, it's not literally a Docker container, but the same place down in functions has that sort of a capability. And we're certainly thinking about how Docker can handle for work in that serverless model in the future. >> See one of my core focus areas for Wikibon as an analyst, is looking at developers going more deeply into deep learning and machine learning. To what extent is Microsoft already taking its core tools in that area and containerizing them and enabling access to that functionality through serverless APIs and functions and so forth in Azure? On the serverless stuff, I'm not on the serverless team. I'm not really qualified to explain everything on their end. I do know that the CNT team has a Docker container that they put the bits in. There's the Azure Machine Learning team who's been working a lot of these sort of technologies. I'm just not the right guy to answer that question. >> As you talk to your customers, where does this fit in to the whole discussion? Do containers just happen in the background? Is it helping them with some of their application modernization? Does it help Microsoft change the way we architect things? What's kind of the practitioner, your ultimate end user viewpoint on this? Well cloud adoption is at all points on the curve simultaneously. Even the inside of individual companies. So everybody's in it, in a kind of different place. The two models that I think people have really concentrated on, is on one end, the path at least is infrastructure where you just bring your existing applications and another one would be PADS, where you rewrite the application for a more modern architecture, more cloud centric architecture. And containers fit kind of squarely in the middle of that in some respects. Because in many ways and primarily, I see Docker containers as a better form of infrastructure. It is an easier, more portable way to get all your dependency together and run them everywhere. So a lot of lift-and-shift works is in there, but once you're in containers, it is also easier to break the components apart and put them back together into a more microservice oriented cloud-native model. >> I think that's a great point because we've been having this discussion about okay, there's applications that I'm rewriting, but then I've got this huge amount of applications that I need some way to have the bridge to the future, if you will. Because I don't know, there's one analyst firm that calls it bimodal, but to customers we talked to in general, we don't segment everything we do. I have application type infrastructure and I need to be able to live across multiple environments. Wrapping versus refactoring. >> And they do both. But I always prefer to, you know some people come in and they talk about legacy and they're developers. I'm a developer, right? Developers we always want to rewrite everything. And there's a time and place to doing that. But the legacy applications are required for those applications to work. And if you don't need to refactor that thing, if you can get it into a container or virtual machine or however, and get it into that more environment, and then work around it, re-architect it, it's a whole different set of approaches. It's a good conversation to have with a customer to understand. I've seen people go both too slow, and I see people refactor their whole thing and then try to figure out how to get it to work again. >> So Microsoft has a gigantic user base, What kind of things are you doing to help educate and help the people that had certification or jobs were running exchange to move towards this new kind of world and cloud in general. And containers specifically maybe. >> Well we have a ton of stuff. I'm not familiar with the certification programs myself, but we certainly have our Developer Evangelism team, out going out training people. We've been trying to improve our documentation. And we have a bunch of guidance on cloud migration and things like that. There is a real challenge and it's the same problem for our customers and anybody looking at cloud. Is to re-educate people who have been working in some of their previous moment. Which is another reason again, where the lift and shift stuff is, you can make it more like it is on Premise, or more like it is on your laptop. It makes that journey a little easier. But we're indefinitely in one of those points where the industry is changing so fast, I personally have to spend a lot of time, What's going on? What happened this day? What's new today coming to the conference, I learn new things. >> You bring up a huge challenge that we see. I kind of like Docker has their two delivery models. They've got the Community Edition, CE, and the Enterprise Edition, EE. An EE feels more like traditional software. It's packaged, it's on the regular release cycle. CE is, Solomon talked this morning about the edge pieces. Can I keep up with every six months, or can I have stuff flying at me? People inside of Docker can't keep up with the pace of change that much. What do you see, I mean, I think back to the major Windows operating system releases that we used to, like the Intel tick-tock on releases. It's the pace of change is tough for everyone, how are you helping, you know with you product development and customers, you know, take advantage of things and try to keep up with this rapidly changing ecosystem? >> This is a constant challenge with physically software now. We can't afford to only ever ship things every three years. And at the same time there's stability. So with the major products like Windows, we have these stable branches, where things are pretty much the same going along. And then there's an inactive branch Where things are coming down and the changes and the updates are coming. I'd say the one biggest difference I'd say, but you know I've been in this industry for a long time. So say between the '90s and now, is that we have so much of it is actually off servers. Where when something crashes, we get a crash dump and we can debug the thing and so going out in the field we have much more capability in finding what's going on in the customer base than we did 20 years ago. But other than that, it's just a really hard challenge to both satisfy people that can't have anything to change, and everything changing. >> John you've been watching this for a number of years, what do we still have left to do? We come back to DockerCon next year, you know, we'll have more people, it'll be a bigger event, but you know, what's the progression, what kind of things are you looking forward to the ecosystem and yourself and Docker, knocking down and moving customers forward with? >> The first year was kind of like, what is this thing? Second year was now, the individual Docker container is there now how do you orchestrate them and next step is how do we network these things. And there's an initiative now to standardize on storage, for storage systems and docker containers. Monitoring. There's a lot of things that are still to do. We have a long ways to go. On the other side, I think this other track, which we talked about today, which is that virtualization and containers are going to blur and mend, and I don't think that seven years from now we're going to be talking about containers or virtual machines, we're just going to be saying it's some unit of compute and then there's so much in knobs and tweaks that you want it a little more isolated, you want it a little less isolated, you trade off some performance for something else. >> Business capability, in other words the enterprise architecture framework of business capabilities, will be paramount in terms of composing applications or microservices. From what I understand you saying. >> Yeah, I think where we're really going to get to is a model where people we get past this basics of storage of networking and start working up the next level So things like Helm or DCS Universe, or Storm Stacks, where you can describe more of an application, it just keeps moving up. And so I think in seven years, we won't be talking so much about this, it'll some other disruption, right? But there won't be talking about this virtualization layer as much as building apps again. >> On a visual composition of microservices, what is Microsoft doing, you say that you long ago entered Microsoft during the Vizio acquisition, what's Microsoft doing to enable more visual composition across these functions, across orchestrated team-like environments going forward? >> I think there is some work going on. It's not my area again, on visual composition, despite the fact that I came from Vizio. I kind of got away from that space >> Well I'm betraying my age. I remember that period. >> All right. Well John, always a pleasure catching up with you and thank you so much for joining us for this segment. Look forward to watching Microsoft going forward. >> Thanks. Thank you for having me. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE.

>> Narrator: Live, from Austin Texas it's the Cube. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back to the Cube SiliconAngle Media's production of DockerCon 2017. I'm Stew Miniman, and joining me for the rap today I have Jim Kobilus who's been my host for the whole day, part of the Wikibon team. Jim, it's been a long day. Your first full day on the Cube, you've been on many times. >> It's been invigorating, I've learned so much. This is an awesomely substantial show. It's been wonderful. We've had so many great guests, oh my gosh. Ben Golub and everybody who came before. Amazing material. >> Stu: And my other guest for the wrap up is John Troyer who's been on the program many times. He sometimes guest host of the program so Chief Reckoner at TechReckoning. John, thanks for joining us. >> Hey, thanks so much for having me, Stu. >> Alright, so you know, we think right, guests we had some really good guests. It's easy for me at the end of the day when you're like oh it's energy flag oh let's have Ben Golub, the CEO of the company that where Docker's gone, and Jerry Chen who always brings energy, part of the V mafia like yourself, John so really interesting stuff. I want to step back, let's talk about the keynote. So I guess John, I'll start with you. Something we've been talking the last year or so is this Docker, Docker, Docker hype. I felt like a little bit of a hype was let out over the last year with the Docker data center, Docker swarm type activity, some of the ecosystem was a little frustrated with the direction that Docker the company was going, compared to where they wanted the open source part to do. Lot of open source, lot of developer talk today. What's your take on the announcements, the ecosystem, opensource? There's so many things, but let's get us started. >> Sure. Well I didn't quite know what to expect, Stu. We hear about Docker going more enterprise, they just made a big enterprise announcement, so I thought we might come in here and hear 45 minutes on digital transformation. And the standard enterprise keynote that you get at every other keynote. And we did not get that this morning. >> I've seen Michael Dell give that keynote in this building. (laughs) So, totally. >> At least we didn't get that here we've all heard that elsewhere. >> Well, at every conference for the last five years, I think. Ten years. So we talked about the ecosystem, that was the first message this morning. It was about growth of the ecosystem, about growth of the partnership, growth of the projects and so that was definitely playing to their strengths, and then they went straight to the code. This was a developer centered keynote, they did live demos with real code. And so they were really playing to the audience here which I think is still predominately developers. So they were signaling that hey, they weren't going all enterprise. Now, the announcements were also interesting. But I think the signal from the keynote was that we are still here, we're all about developer experience, we're about making things simple. >> Yeah, I don't think there's too many shows where you'd start off and they're like oh, here's how you can build really large containers, easier with this multi-part build and filling all this Docker stuff. It's not the suits, it's not the big customers. Having said, does that mean you won't go to tomorrow's keynote because Ben said it's going to be all the enterprise stuff tomorrow. >> I live for the enterprise stuff. I'm really excited about tomorrow. So hopefully, not too much digital transformation. But I think what Docker has announced the last month, not even talking about what happened today, but the Docker packaging, the Docker data, Docker enterprise edition versus consumer edition, and then not consumer, community addition, sorry. And then the tiers of the Docker, Docker enterprise edition, I think is really kind of brilliant. Docker is at a real turning point in its evolution right now. And there was a lot of confusion around what is Docker the project, what is Docker the engine, what is Docker the company, and I think with this kind of packaging, and then with the announcements today, I really think that they've just cleared up a whole lot of confusion in the ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean coming in I think I heard a lot of people who were really excited that container D got open sourced. We went to, all three of us went to kubernetes event last night that was over at the Google Fiber Space a couple of blocks from here. And it was oh, cool I get all the opensource like Docker one, that stuff I need, but not all that upper level stuff and advanced things that Docker is building in to it so there's opensource pieces. That goes into the Moby project. Docker's committing, doubling down on a lot of this. We're going to take all these pieces. We're going to work on them, community's going to build it, they can take that compostable view of putting their solutions. And Docker will package and have monetization and things that they'll do there but the partner ecosystem can do different things with that. So what do you guys take on, let's just start with the Moby project first, some of these open source, the whole ecosystem. Positive, you think it's good? >> Yes, very much so. So the maturation of the container ecosystem is in the form of, what you see though the announcements, one of which is customization. So customize containers to the finest degree. They've got that capability now with Moby, exactly. It's all about containers everywhere. Containerization of applications is now the dominant theme in the developer community across all segments. So I think Docker has done the right thing which is doubling down on developers, doubling down on the message and the tooling now for both customization of containers but also for portability with the Linux kit announcement and so forth. Containerization, micro services and so forth across all segments. One of the areas I focus on is artificial intelligence, deep learning. Containerization is coming to that in a big way as well. A lot of it is to drive things like autonomous vehicles and drones and whatnot. But we're going to see containerization come to every other segment of data science, deep learning, machine learning and so forth. It's not just the people at this show, it's other developer communities that are coming to containerization in a big way. And Docker is becoming a premier development tool then for them. Or will be. >> So Jim, Stu, I think even more tactically, there was this confusion about Docker the engine, Docker the container run time, Docker the container specification. Now as pulling that out with container D and now with Linux kit, you always had the thing where Red Hat would say well we have open shift, it's like Docker or it has a piece of Docker or it can work with Docker, you have Cloud Foundry it's like Docker, or has a Docker, or can work with Docker now. And so everybody had to do this dance by saying well, we use some of the technology there. Now, very clean split, very different branding, we use Linux kit, we use container D, we use the Moby framework. And that actually will help again, look, the death of commercial success is confusion. If a buyer does not understand how to get what you want or what you're selling, he's never going to buy anything. >> Yeah, I think we've seen the end of Docker's well, batteries included but removable, cause some confusion in the marketplace. People are like well, but it's not easy, that's kind of what's there, I want to be able to choose the pieces up front. We talked about with Brian Gracely earlier today, what is the pinioned platform because there's certain solutions. Microsoft wants to build what they want. And they've lots of options, but when they want to build an upper level service, they have the pieces underneath that they care about. It's not like oh, okay wait. I have to do this, then I have to uninstall this, that was like in Linux all the time. It's like up, I'm recompiling, I'm recompiling, I have to add things in and remove them it's like no, no, no. I want it in box. In the kernel. And then I can choose and activate what I need. >> My guess is that next year, my prediction is that next year at DockerCon Docker will double down on experience, developer experience. There's not a enough of it yet, here. I think that will be a core theme for them going forward to continue to deepen their mind share in that community. >> I actually, I'll take that and double it. So, one of the reasons that, I think one of the factors, that caused VMWare to come to prominence was its operator experience and its simplicity. VMWare HA high availability was a one check box. VMWare distributed resource schedule which moved virtual machines around, one check box, right? And so with Docker's focus on developer usability and developer experience with today's announcements of Linux kit, that could actually be a huge, huge deal. If in the future, the application development pipeline greatly depends on building a just enough operating system as we used to say back in the day of VMWare with Jerry Chen. >> Stu: Yeah, good 'ol juice. >> Yeah, if that becomes the defining characteristic of building cloud native apps, and it is right? The Docker file is the defining document of our time. If that's the case, and now they've taken it into the Linux distribution world, which could have repercussions for the whole ecosystem, that could be Docker's, you know, again, their magic check box, the developer experience of rolling out a custom stack has just been the level has just been raised. And Linux kit is not new to the world. They just open sourced it today. But it's what they're using to get out their Docker for AWS and Docker for Google cloud. And Docker on public clouds already uses it so it's already in production today. I'm super impressed. >> And I think there was potential that it could have caused more confusion or upset in the ecosystem. But we interviewed Red Hat, and Canonical today and I'm not saying that jumped up and down and embraced and said oh goody, but it wasn't it was like okay, that's fine. It's not there, because there's always got to be that cooptive. I mean Jim, you came most recently from IBM. The company that I most associated with that word co-opetition. So, there's always, there's the swim lanes, there's where you partner together and there's where you sometimes bump heads as to strategy. >> Yeah. And I don't think people should be too alarmed, I mean from a technical level, right there's stuff that runs in containers, there's stuff that runs underneath containers. There's still a role for Ubuntu and there's still a role for Red Hat and there's still a role for CoreOS and Rancher. I don't know enough, I don't have enough of a crystal ball to say what we'll be talking about next year. It could actually have a fairly large dripple effect going out in our ecosystem. >> John, you've also, you've dug into with a couple of vendors here, what about the storage space? It's one we've been digging out of bed. There's still the general consensus is, we still have a little ways to go on the maturity and it's the furthest behind. Big surprise just like VMWare. We spent over a decade doing that. What's your take on storage? Any other comments on just the broad ecosystem, just what needs to work, be worked on and improved over time. >> I think storage is the next area that needs to be worked on. I think that's the next piece that we see as still a little bit fragmented. I've heard from many vendors here at the show that even from Docker itself, that the surprising thing is that containers are not just for cloud native apps. A lot of the enterprise journey, and I imagine we're going to hear about that in tomorrow's keynote, starts with containerizing your big legacy apps. >> Yeah, it's funny. I made a comment at the Google cloud event in San Francisco a month ago. I'm like, hey when did lift and shift all of a sudden become sexy? (laughs) It's of course nuanced on that, and we've had a few interviews Jim, where we've talked about look, there's initiatives that we want to do the cool app modernization and everything there but in the meantime, it is not a bimodal world. We're not going to leave our old stuff there and let it slowly have Larry the engineer keep an eye on it and sleep all the time. The whole world kind of needs to move forward, containers are part of the way to give us the bridge to the future if you will. >> Yeah, how do you containerize the legacy app the mainframe app for example, it's got a petabyte of data in its storage, I mean you just got to work through the data, I mean the deep data issues there, you know. >> Yeah, you can run Docker on a mainframe. I mean, I've done interviews on that. You work with those people, Jim. And it's one of those oh wait, okay, right. So there's pieces that'll be updated and people that are changed. John, you and I have talked. I remember early days of VMWare. It was let me take that horrible 10 year old application that's running on Windows NT which is going into life, and my hardware's going to die, let me shove it into VM and leave it there for another five, ten years. And it was like, please don't do that. >> Sometimes the real world intrudes. I think we are, part of this problem does get smoothed over or confused but we're talking about both on prem apps and public cloud apps. And that can get a little confusing because the storage issues, going back to storage, are a little different. Right? Especially in the public cloud, you've got issues of data locality, you've got issues of latency, even performance and so you see a number of vendors who are approaching it. It's very easy to connect the container to some sort of persistent volume. It is very hard to give something that its performance and is backed up and is, you know is going to be there. People have spent, the storage industry has spent decades on those problems. I don't think we're there yet in terms of the generic container that is floating either in public cloud or on prem. >> And they can handle the hybrid cloud, hybrid data clouds of which there are a myriad in terms of high public private zones within a distributed data architecture with varying degrees of velocity and variety. Managing all that data in a containerized environments with rich orchestration among them, to replication and streaming and so forth. >> You can do it, but it's not, it's cutting edge right now. >> Yeah, it's cutting edge. >> So, John last question I have to ask you is something near and dear to your heart. When you talk about careers and people that are doing, there's a lot of people here, people I used to see in the VMWare community that learning all the cool new stuff. Anything you see is Docker doing evangelism? Program the influencer program type thing? Are you seeing anything in the educational spaces from career space, what can you share? >> Sure, Docker is very rich in community it's kind of been the engine of their growth. They've long had a huge user group program, they have a campus program, they have a mentorship program, and they also have the Docker captains. The Docker captains started, oh I don't know, a year, a year and a half ago and is an advocacy program, I think there's 70 of them now, they work very closely with them. The come from all across the ecosystem which is kind of interesting. Everybody from Dehli MC and many companies. So that's pretty cool that these people, it feels a lot like early days of VMWare, these people have day jobs but yet they spend their nights and weekends hacking on Docker. And Docker takes advantage of that, I mean in the best sort of way. They give them opportunities, they give them platforms to speak, they give them platforms to help others. And I see that's in full force here. They have a track here at the show, so Dockers are leaning heavily on its community. I even saw one person here, Stu from from a mainline storage company said you know what, my company's not here but I am because I have to learn how to do this. I think people who are here have a good next phase of their career. >> That's a smart. A community advocacy program of that sort is actually is even more important than an event like this in terms of deepening the loyalty of the developers to leverage providers and their growing stacks. >> John: Docker the company is very small. There's a very large community and a very small company. >> Stu: Three hundred and some odd people. >> They have to leverage those resources. >> John: Exactly. >> Well, Jim thanks for all your help co-hosting today, John, really appreciate you coming in, especially some of that community ecosystem expertise that you bring. By the way, John's going to be co-hosting open stack summit with me. Another one that will have lost (mumbles) where that ecosystem community is and where it's going in a couple of weeks in my home state of Massachusetts in Boston. So be sure to tune in tomorrow, we've got a full day of coverage. First guest is going to be Solomon Hykes coming off the day two keynote. We're going to talk a little bit more about enterprise. We got a full lineup of guests. So be sure to check out siliconangle.tv for everything there. So for Jim Kobielus, John Troyer and myself Stu Miniman, thank you for watching day one of the Cube's coverage of DockerCon 2017. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (techno music) >> Welcome back. Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, joined with Jim Kobielus. You're watching theCUBE's SiliconANGLE Media's production of DockerCon 2017. We're the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. And we can't finish any DockerCon without having Jerry Chen on. So, Jerry, partner with Greylock, always a pleasure to interview you. We've had you on the Amazon shows a lot, Docker, other ecosystem shows, so, great to see ya. >> Stu, Jim. Hey, thanks for having me, as always. It's great to be here. >> Alright, so first of all, I mean, you invested back in the dotCloud days. Could you imagine, when you were meeting with Solomon and those guys and everything that we'd be here with 5,500 people as to where they'd go? What's your take on the growth? >> Every year just blows my mind, both in open-source community developers, ecosystem partners, and more recently, past year and a half, the enterprise customers that take Docker seriously, or replatformed applications on Docker, amazes me. I think I did an investment in 2013, and there were a few hundred thousand downloads of Docker, now there's billions and billions of containers being pulled. When I talk to CIOs that I deal with frequently, they're like, "Docker containers, what is this thing, pants?" And then, (laughter) three and a half, four years later, I can't have a conversation without a Fortune 500 CIO without talking about their Docker container strategy. >> By the way, I hear if you do send back a belt or something that's broken to the Docker people, they'll fix it for you, and maybe send some whale stickers. >> It's like the old school Nordstroms where they take any return. They're this urban store, with the four tires return to Nordstrom, return some pants, you'll be fine. >> You know, we work on container strategy, but we're also your repair shop for you know, men's apparel. So, it's always interesting to look at-- >> Jim: Integration fabric. >> Brilliant. You know, the maturation of technology, of ecosystem, of monetization. I feel like you talked about the growth of the containers. We've seen the ecosystem. It's gone through some fits and spurts and changes over the last couple of years. I think we're really well-received this week. And then there's the money maturation and how they mature that. What do you see? How does open-source fit into your investment strategy, and any commentary on Docker and beyond? >> I was thinking about this on the flight over here today. Open source today is very different than open source five years ago, 10 years ago, as 15. So what what Red Hat did 20 years ago, is very different than what Xen tried to do 10 years ago. When I was at VMware, very different from what Docker is doing today. And it's different in a couple ways. I think the way you monetize is different. Because you have cloud, and cloud changes things. The ecosystem's very different, because all of a sudden the developers, contributors, are not just kind of your misfits and rebels working on the weekends. They are Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies. Their jobs are now dedicated to this. And then the business models of the developers' ecosystem, how you work with them is very different. So before, you had maybe one or two models to make money in open source. Or one or two ways to develop a community. We did that at Red Hat, which Greylock was lucky enough to be investors in years ago. I was at VMware around Cloud Foundry, we built that. We had a model mine, we had a spring source as well, and what you've seen Docker in the past three or four years, is they're really pioneering a way to bring open source and community ecosystem into the next 10-20 years. So I think it's one to watch. I think Solomon's probably as good as anybody understanding what developers need. >> So a little broader, what's your thoughts on developers today? You actually made the comment coming over, there's two big developer shows this week. You've got F8 and you've got DockerCon, two very different communities. >> Right, it's kind of funny. There's always this sense of, do you consider yourself a developer? So if I write a line of JavaScript, am I a developer? My two cents is yes. If I'm a developer, from JavaScript to Swift to Docker to cURL hacking, it's all great. But if you look at those two conferences, you have F8 going on right now, and the announcements there around augmented reality and messaging, and it's trying to be a platform, but they're doing many of the same things. You have a distribution platform be it Messenger or Facebook, and they're open sourcing technologies around the camera, the lens, the filters, to have developers a) go through the channel, b) add apps or widgets. It's really beyond my ability to comprehend these filters, but Docker today announced a couple great projects: Moby and Linux Kit, much the same way as trying to give tools to the ecosystem developers to build what they want. I think what you've learned is, if you give developers the building blocks, the "Legos" as they call it today, they're going to build some awesome structures. >> Jim was, we talked about coming in here as the role of how data science fits into the developers, and developer is such a broad term, as to what we have here. >> One of the core themes I have is that the data scientist is the nucleus of next generation developer because much of the IP that's being built in the applications now, is statistical models and machine learning and so forth, driving recommendation, but much of that development is being containerized using new tool kits and so forth. But it needs to be more containerized so you can deploy statistical predictive models, machine learning, deep porting to routing the string ecosystem into a hybrid cloud to perform various functions. >> Right now there's, in most companies, there's a data engineer, there's a data scientist, and the two typically work hand in hand. >> Jim: One manages Hadoop, the other one does the modeling. >> Does the modeling, so one speaks in R and Python and works in Jupyter Notebook, the other person runs on Hadoop or database or Redis. The two need to work together and so what you're seeing now and obviously we're investors of Cloudera, that's another great open source company, what you see now is either a) a set of tools and technologies to either blend the two together in some cases, either enable engineers to be more data scientists, or enable data scientists to be more engineers, but also see a bunch of technology tools that say, no, two different roles, I'm going to create tools purpose-built for the data scientists, create tools purpose-built for the power of a data engineer. And I think there's space for both to the extent that you have applications running from news feed or ads to predicting how my self-driving car should make a left turn, you're going to need tools that are used by both types of populations. >> I think Cloudera now has a collaboration environment in the data science department. IBM has something very similar with what they're doing, so it's a team that has specialties such as coders, such as data modelers and data engineers. Point well taken. Cloudera's made a major entrance into that space of collaborative development, of these rich stacks of IP, essentially, that include deterministic program code, but also probabilistic models in a deepening stack. >> I think you've seen Cloudera definitely follow that path from Hadoop and low-level file system HDFS, to these high-level tools for data scientists that's becoming a platform for machine learning for these next generation applications. I think you see Docker in the infrastructure analogy doing low-level tools like Project Moby and Linux Kit, to high-level services around Docker Datacenter. So you can either have the basic tools for your low-level developer, or for the system admin or administrator who wants to operate or run the cloud, you have tools for him or her, too. >> It's interesting, you look at some of these projects and some of the maturation and pivots you see. We talked about dotCloud went over to Docker. You see a bunch of open stock companies that are now Kubernetes companies. I see companies that were big data, they're now, "Oh, I'm an AI or ML company." It's always like, it's usually not the tool, it's the wave. What is the driver? Is data the driver of our next wave there? Is it the application? Is it some combination of the two? Those are the two that I usually look at. Follow the data, follow the application. >> I would say it's data driving. It's really data application, it's data, and the applications make use of the data. Algorithms, I think, is a component. They're important, but they're a component. So what you see now is, to be on the right side of history, data is outstripping compute and storage, so the amount of videos and center data that we're generating from our phones, our cars, our homes, that is outstripping most of the other charts in compute, networking, whatever. That's definitely kind of a rising tide or a wave, as Stu was saying. Now how do we extract data, or value from this data? And historically, because you didn't have infrastructure, that cloud, or compute capacity to make use of this data, it was kind of stranded, so what you've seen in generation technologies like Hadoop or big data or cloud technologies like Docker did, is distribute your applications across a cloud. That's actually enabling you to now build applications to get value out of this data. And that value can be something like forecasting your sales this quarter. It can be about figuring which shade of brown belt you should wear with your pants, going back to our clothing analogy. Or it could be like, let me build a model around how this car or this drone should drive or fly itself. So you combine the vast amount of data, nearly infinite resource of compute, with these machine-learning or AI techniques. Machine learning is one AI technique, but all these other techniques, you can build another generation application, this new intelligent application to power everything from your home, your car, your watch, or your enterprise app, as wonderful as that is. >> Much of the sea change is less and less coding or programming is actually being done or needs to be done because more of the application logic is being distilled directly from the data in the form of machine learning. There's automated machine learning tools that are coming. Google has been a major investor as is Facebook in automated machine learning. >> I would say application logic from the inside, right. So in my mind, application logic, an application is reflecting business process. Hire to fire, order to cash. You still need a program that does logic. Data in itself, or AI in itself without that context, without that business process, is meaningless, right. Just having a model around Jim or Stu, it doesn't matter unless you're trying to buy something. Google pioneered machine learning in a workflow perfectly. You're searching for something, they knew who you were based upon history, you're searching the right ad and say, "Oh, you really want to buy a car, you want to buy a house." So in the workflow, or in the application logic of a search, they used ML to serve you timely information. Now if you're an enterprise, you're looking at help desk tickets, be it ITSM like ServiceNow, or support tickets like Zendesk supporting B to C support tickets. That's a workflow, there's application logic. They take information on a user or a grumpy customer, and they do things like automatically respond to a help ticket, reset your password, provision a server. So I think when you have AI or have applications using this data in the context of a business process, that's magic. And I think we're seeing some core technologies like TensorFlow out there that are super compelling. But we're seeing a generation of developers and founders take that technology, apply it to a problem, it could be HR or CRM, ITSM, or true vertical. Construction, finance, health care. >> Jim: Streaming media analytics is a core area where that's coming in. >> Media analytics because there's a ton of data. Understand what you watch and what you want to see, and so you apply things to a vertical, like health care, or apply the technology to a problem space like media analytics, and you have a wonderful application and hopefully a great company. >> Jerry, we've talked a lot at the cloud shows about how do the startups maintain relevant and get involved when there's all of these platforms. We talked about what Google does, Amazon of course is eating the entire world in everything. Microsoft is making lot of moves here. How do companies, what do you look for? Has your investment strategy changed at all in the last couple of years? >> It is daunting. I think about this a lot in terms of business models and defensibility, and the question goes, what are the sustainable moats you can build around your business as a startup anymore? 'Cause you feel like economies of scale and ecosystems, network effects, those were historically big defensive moats for a Windows operating system. Now those apply to Facebook's platform, Apple's platform, or AWS. They have scale and they have network effects for the ecosystem, so now your startup is saying, okay, how can I either a) overcome those moats, or b) how can I develop my own IP or my own moats around myself that I can actually sustain and thrive in this generation. I think you got to play a different game. As a startup, you're not going to try to out-scale Google or Microsoft; leave that to Amazon and those three or four players. But you can get scale in a domain, so either a problem space like autonomous vehicles, security is a great one, or vertical construction or health care. You redefine the market that you can dominate, can you build your own moat around that IP. >> It's interesting. did you hear Adrian Cockcroft who went from Battery Ventures over to AWS. He's like, "Well, rather than go startup that business, "come build that next thing at Amazon "and we'll do it there." Is that a viable way for people with the entrepreneurial spirit to go be part of that two-pizza team doing something cool inside a large platform? >> I think Adrian probably has motivation and more developers on Amazon now, but I would say most of our companies, not all, but a lot of them started at Amazon. Some start in ads, some start in Google, some start with their own data centers. I think what they believe is they'll get started in one of these clouds but I don't believe, so we talked about this first, it's not a one-cloud-rules-all world. I think there'll be three or four, if not more, clouds in every different geography from Europe to Asia to Russia to the US, will have different clouds, different players. So I think it's fine to get started in Amazon and be a two-pizza team with the other two-pizza team, but over time I see these applications being cross-cloud, and that's where something like Docker comes into play. Docker wants to be cross-cloud, better than any other technology out there. >> On some level, actually, the moat could be, or increasingly is, the training data that drives the refinement of your AI, like Tesla is a perfect example. The self-driving capabilities that they built into the vehicle, they have now a few years' worth of rich test data, training data I should say, that is a core moat in terms of continuing refinement of those algorithms. So that gives you sort of an example of some startup might come along with some very specialized application that takes the consumer world by storm and then they build up some deep well of training data in some very specialized area that becomes their core asset that their next competitor down the pipe doesn't have. >> It has to be a set of data that's unique or proprietary. You're not going to basically out-train your model on cat photos from Google, right? So it has to be a combination of either proprietary data or a combination of data sources that you can stick together. So it's not just one data source, I believe you have to combine multiple data sources together. >> So Jerry, sitting over Jim's shoulder is VMware's booth. I haven't talked about VMware at all this week. You worked at VMware, I've worked with VMware since pretty early days. What advice would you give VMware in the containerized cloud future? How should they be doing more to be part of more conversations? >> I think it's amazing that they have a presence here in the size and scale. The past couple years they're really done a lot to embrace containers and Docker, so I think that's first and foremost. They've done a couple great moves lately. Embracing Amazon last year, with VMware on Amazon, was a big move. Embracing containers with some of their cloud and data technologies I think was an aggressive move too. So I think they're moving in the right direction. I think what they need to understand is, are they going to revolutionize themselves and push these new technologies aggressively, or are they going to keep hanging onto some of their old businesses? For any company of their size and scale, they have multiple motivations, but I think they're making the right steps. So five years ago, or four years ago, I don't think they would have taken this DockerCon seriously. I don't think they were exhibitors at the first DockerCon. But in the past 24 months they've done some amazing moves, so I would say it makes me smile to see them take these great steps forward. >> Jerry, I want to give you the last word. Any cool companies we should be looking at, or things that are exciting to you without giving away trade secrets? >> I can't broadcast the companies I want because everyone else is going to chase those investments. I don't know, I think I'm going to enjoy spending time, actually less with the companies here but a lot with the developers and customers, because I think by the time they have a booth here, everybody knows the company's investment is probably too far along maybe for me to invest, maybe not. But talking to developers to hear what are their friction points? I think when you hear enough friction either in this ecosystem or another ecosystem or at AWS or VWware, then there's something there, you just got to scratch. >> I was talking to some of the people working the booths and they just said the quality of the attendees here, you learn something with every single person you talk to, and there's only a few shows that say that. Amazon reinvented one, the quality of the attendees always real good, this one and a few others. >> I think people who come here by definition are learners, both the companies and the individuals, and you want to surround yourself with learners, people who are open and honest and always learning. >> Jerry, I think that's a perfect note to end it on. We are always learners here and helping to help our audience in trying to understand these technologies, so Jerry Chen, always a pleasure. And we'll be back with the wrap-up here of day one DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)

(techno music) >> Narrator: From Austin, Texas It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from EnSync System Partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, here with Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program. Someone we've had on theCUBE many times, Ben Golub, who is the CEO of Docker. Welcome Back. Hey, congratulations to you and the team. >> Oh hey, thank you, and I'd like to say, this is our favorite time of year. Followed very closely by the week after DockerCon and we no longer have to do it. >> Absolutely, I mean, look, I'd say the word that stuck out for me the most this morning is, 'scaleability'. So, we talk about how customers are thinking about scaleability, how you scale the different solutions you have. And, look at the scale of an event like this. So, you know, we've got, you know, this big event here, 5,500 people ... Which we were reminiscing back to like the first DockerCon and the growth of this. It's impressive and it's done really well. I haven't seen people griping about taking an hour to check in, the food's been good ... You know, the lines haven't been. >> Ben: Yeah, good. >> And, Austin always a fun place to come, >> Absolutely. >> Apropos for all the open source stuff that's going on. >> Yeah, the only problem is, this is the first place where we've had a Docker conference, where we haven't been at a port. So, like all of these great, look at the containers ships outside, you know, we can no longer do that. But, that's okay. >> Uh, Vancouver would maybe be good. I remember actually, I did puns for an entire week when we were at Open Stack Summit in Vancouver. Overlooking the bay there cause there is container ships everywhere. >> Ben: Is that right? >> So Ben, you know please just bring us up to speed ... Kind of you, the team, we've gone through a lot of the announcements but, so some of the highlights for it. >> Yeah, I mean, I mean obviously this morning we had a lot of fantastic announcements. We talked about Lenox Kit. We talked about Mobi. You saw, just huge improvements in the developer flow. Tomorrow is going to be a lot about enterprise. For me, that's really the most exciting change that we've seen over the past year. It's just an explosion of Docker and the enterprise. You know, Docker has brought on over 400 enterprise class customers. Some of the largest names uh, really in the industry right? And, some of them like, MetLife and VISA and Intuit, will be talking live tomorrow. Um, and what's been especially interesting for us is that, the use of Docker is not just for Greenfield projects. Um, Docker's being used to keep planes in the air, keep trains running on time, and it's being used in the largest, some of the largest financial transactions, handling, you know, millions and millions of transactions a day, right? And, that's really exciting for us, it's also very humbling. >> All those used cases you throw out, it's Docker cover lots of applications, from a wide variety of things. It reminds of what we've see. >> Right, right. A lot of them are, you know, they're 15 three year old applications as well as, you know, two minute old applications. >> Yeah, and it's something we've been picking at is how much is it the new stuff, and how much is it the platform, that can bring some of the older stuff in. And, then we look at how we change it over time. I think it's something we've been struggling with, kind of, whole cloud and app, you know, modernization, for years now. >> Yeah, well I think it's really good. I think, um, that there's this sort of, there's this fallacy, that sort of persisted for a while, where people thought, okay, you know if you're going to have BiModal IT, there's going to be the new cool stuff down in the containers running the cloud, and then all that old stuff is just going to wither and die in some dark data center somewhere. >> Yeah, right. >> It doesn't match what we hear. >> That's absolutely not the case actually, you know. If we look across our customer base, you know, about 50% of them are beginning their Docker journey with their traditional apps. Now that's not where it ends. But, you know, if you think about it just by taking 80% or 90% of the apps out there, our traditional applications run in, you know, traditional infrastructure. And, just by taking a traditional application, you put it inside of a Docker container, you know, automatically you're getting, without changing a single line of code, something between 75% and 5X better resource utilization. You're able to do simple things like, upgrade your data base, or move from an old machine to a new machine, or old data center to a new data center. Again, without changing a single line of code. But, then the magic starts. >> Right? Then you start taking that traditional application, and treating it in a more modern way. CICD, gradually breaking it down into smaller and smaller bits, and that's the way it goes. >> So, You know, some of has struggled. We said, remember back to virtualization. Virtualization has the easy low hanging fruit of, oh, I can consolidate. I can get great utilization. %I can save a lot of money. I think you did a good job laying out. You know, in your last statement there. But, it's not as simple, you know? When it gets bubbled up to the customers, you know, the board, the sea level, when they're doing this. What is it they're like? What's the initiative they're running? Cause, it's not ... Nobody says, oh I have a container problem. >> Ben: Uh, right, right, we fix it. >> What is that business need, you know, that you're helping to, you're helping them to itch? >> Well, it's something all they need to, they need to be more efficient. They need to be faster, right? >> And, Docker helps you do that if you're running brand spanking new applications. >> Yeah, but she loves that. We talked about that for a while. >> It's agility. But, you know, part of agility is also making sure that your existing applications don't weigh you down, right? And, and that they actually support your business gradually going forward. >> Yeah. And, I mean, one of the things, one of the things that excited me about containers in the early days, is ... I'm an infrastructure guy, and, infrastructure has always held us back. and, the atomic, you know, you know, containers bring the applications really as the atomic note. yIt's not the server or their VM. It's the app, or you know, the 12 factor, you know, app there so. So if the app's driving it, not that infrastructure matters, but, it's not the thing driving it. >> Right, well the ... by focusing on the app, we actually let people choose the infrastructure that they want, or migrate from, you know one style of infrastructure to another style, over time. Uh, what it also though means is, if you're focusing on the app, or on the container, then how do you think about security, and how do you think about networking, and how you think about compliance? Uh, all of those things need a refresh. But, the good news is &once you do that refresh, it's actually much faster, and much more efficient. >> Alright, So you know John Furrier wouldn't let this interview come without, you know popping in. So, he is just sending me a note, and he said, "What is the intersection between the cloud native, and the app developers, that you're seeing?" >> Uh, the internet intersection between the cloud native ... >> Cloud native and app developers. >> Um, you know, I think that developers want to build really cool stuff. And, if they build a cloud native, that's fantastic. Um, if they want to build it, not being cloud native, that's very cool too, right? We're seeing this whole generation of, of developers who, you know, may have been working in Java for the past 15 years, or working in, ah, dot net. Um, They're able to do really, really cool things. Um, With Docker, uh, and it actually helps bring them into the cloud native space. But, you don't have to rewrite an amazing application, just because of your architecture, your infrastructure is changing. >> Yeah, you can wrap and refactor, and migrate your existing applications at the pace that you wish. Uh, rather than being forcibly upgraded or migrated. >> That's right, that's right. You also don't need to know what cloud you're going to be running on four years from now. Or, what infrastructure you're going to be running on, or, what your apps going to be able to do, right? Um, you know, this stuff happens organically with Docker. And, that's really part of the beauty of it. >> You know you are developing for the multi-cloud. In other words, the cloud you're on today, and the clouds you might be on tomorrow, and a flexible or graceful transition. And, you know, it's really cloud churn over time you're going to be on a variety of clouds, and you just want to make sure your applications, and your data and all your assets are easily migrate-able. >> Yeah, I think you stated that really well, and I think especially as people start looking into, you know, applications where they want to burst, or applications that are sort of big data where they want to, you know, be moving the application to the data rather than the date to the applications, right? Um, it needs to be multi-cloud because actually, or multi-location, right? Um, and we're happy to help with that. >> Um, so, we've watched the maturity of the technology, and the growth of the system. I mean, I think a lot of us were really happy. Eco system, I mean, you know, Soloman did a great job of highlighting that. To be honest, some of the swarm stuff, with Docker data center last year, felt like ... >> Felt like we were fighting, yeah. >> It felt like a little bit of fighting, and it feels like we're healing, and we're coming together, and, we're growing that. So, maybe speak on that a little bit. But, the follow up question I have for you on kind of the business is, I think we're still pretty early in the modernization strategy for this. And, I think it's good for people to realize that. That, you know, all of this stuff doesn't happen over night. It's amazing to see how far it's come, you know, In just four years of the company. Um, but, you know, I'll let you riff on those two things. >> Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I'll start with the first one, which is, um, you know, fighting within the eco system. You know, there's this sort of this saying that, you know, people hate people of a slightly different sect, more than they hate pagans, right? (laughing) so I think sometimes within, within like the open source community, oh, you take a slightly different approach towards orchestration than I would of taken, therefore, we should be enemies. And, then suddenly you take a step back and say, "now wait a minute, we're all trying to do the same thing. Build great apps and make the world, uh, enable people to build great things, Right?" And, I think as Solomon laid out today, right? Orchestration, container run time, security, networking, various slavers of the security. These are all things, that actually should be really atomic, and we should be able to all collaborate on them. So, you're seeing a lot more of that. Cause also what we're seeing is in terms of modernization you know, modernization isn't a single, isn't driven by a single factor. It's not driven by orchestration, or it's not driven by networking. It's really, what we're seeing more and more is that it's being driven by the supply chain. And it's how do I as an enterprise, with lots of developers building lots of different types of apps. Some are old, some are new, some are Lenix, some are Windows, some are running on Prim, some are running in the cloud. How do I manage that supply chain, and have it be secure no matter where it's going? And, that's where we're able to add a lot of value. What we're finding as a business, to get to your point. Is that we'll meet the customer wherever they want to start. Our business model, our subscription model, we charge based off of you know, nodes per year, or nodes per minute, if you really want to go there. And, we just let them gradually start using more and more and more. So we're actually very excited. Not only do we have, you know, 400 large customers, and you know, 10,000 smaller customers. But, we're seeing every customer is expanding, is renewing, and so customers who were on 40 nodes six months ago, are now on 400, 500, a 1,000 nodes. We have on 12,000 node customer, uh, and that's really good for our business model. >> Yeah, the other question from Furrier is, you know, what KPI's are you tracking this year? Are you talking, 400 enterprise customers, you look at, you know, the size of how many employees you have, you know. What are some of the growth drivers and levers that you guys are playing with this year? >> Yeah, it's honestly for us, the most important metrics that we're looking at is, is obviously number of new users, how that translates into number of new customers. You know, within the customers, how many nodes are they deploying on, and most importantly, how many more of them? >> What about your host, is that growing too? >> That's growing too, right, right? So, designated containers for host is growing. Ah, and for us, the KPI is okay. You know, how are those customers doing? How many of them are renewing? How many of them are expanding? Um, and for us, you know, I think that sort of brings it back to the customer level. We do a good job with the customers, especially with this subscription business model. I think that sort of forces you to, if you invest in the customer, they're going to invest in you. >> Yeah, um, speaking of money, we've got Cherry Chen coming on next. And, as far as you're saying, there's a lot of top VC's here. What do you see that, what's driving investment in this area? Um, you know, where are you guys with dollars? Anything you can you say on that? Just kind of the VC investment end. >> Okay, tell Furrier if he wants to ask difficult questions, you've got to be sitting here, otherwise ... (laughing) Um, uh, no, so, so, we're seeing ... >> He's shy, he can only talk through an intermediary. >> Yeah. I understand. John is not shy. >> Talk for yourself John. >> Um, we're very happy about what's happening with our modernization. We're seeing the top line growing much, much faster than the expanse line growing. I mean, if we want them to cross right at a certain point. But, it looks like that's going to happen pretty soon here. But, I think there's so much interest in this area, because this is really is much broader than a single application, right? I mean, yeah, you can go out and you can invest in some great sales companies, or, you know, some great open source application companies. But, you know, containerization and dockerization, right? It's really a c-chain, and it's impacting infrastructure, and it's impacting apps. It's impacting networking and storage, and also the other traditional areas, but I think in a really exciting way. >> Yeah, can you speak to the culture of Docker? I remember that first show in 2014, 42 employees. And, now you've got a little over 300. What is, you know, the prototype? What do you look for in a docker, an employee there, you know, what do you see this company being when you're a 1,000 employees? >> That's a really good question? >> How do you motivate them? What is the vision that they're all ... >> Well something like this. This is incredibly motivating. And, I honestly, um, for people at Docker, we look for all different types, sort of say, hey, we kind of like people who are type A personalities, and type B bodies, you know? (laughing) We're really excited, but are able to, you know, run at sprint pace for a marathon. Um, but honestly the things that keep us really, really motivated is, I say, if you're ever feeling down at Docker, go talk to users, go talk to customers, and that will get you excited. I spoke this morning about, ah, TGN, which is this non-profit genomics company. The fact that Docker has enabled them to sequence individual pages of genomes, so much faster, and diagnose them, and cure them faster. You know, you heard the story of the young girl who spent the first 12 years of her life in a wheel chair, barely able to talk. And, now because of things that Docker helped enable, she's out, she's living life like a typical teenager. Wants to become a genomics scientist when she grows up. Going to main stream school. I mean that, that's motivating. And, that helps to deal with the normal trough of oh, okay the code didn't work, we missed the ship date, whatever the case may be. >> Yeah, yeah, you didn't help advertising clicks. You know, you're helping to improve lives. And to that, I love that the show here, you've got some charitable events, that you're contributing to. Are there activities you guys are doing at corporate to help to drive, kind of, civic engagement? >> Um, you know, we do, but what we found is the best is when it comes from, from inside our employee base. Of course, our employee base would really love nothing more than going out, and talking to users, and to some extent we do have a lot of charitable things that we do. It's really exciting to have, 14 and 13 year olds who are using your technology. I mean, who would ever thought? I spent my entire life trying to have something that my kids would think is cool, and actually now, they think Docker is. >> How does it tie in with education? Are you guys helping to, you know, the next generation of active people? >> Absolutely, Docker is actually being used very broadly in computer science courses. Just because, that's basically how teachers want students to submit their, submit their projects to them, submit within the Docker container, right? Of course, we're thrilled that they're learning how to use Docker. It also means that students, they don't need to worry about making sure the student's laptops are set up correctly. They can focus on writing great code. So, yeah, we engage in education. We're doing some educational work with people in San Francisco. Just because that's our home base. And, we're really happy to support you know, three, actually four wonderful charities that are here at DockerCon today. You know, some servicing, LGBT youth, we've got one in the genomics space. Uh, one focused on teaching coding. Uh, and that just kind of ... That really helps to stay motivated. To stay motivated. >> It's a shame that you're not having any fun. >> You know, I'm having a ton of fun. I'm exhausted. I'll probably collapse in a corner. You know, come Friday. >> And as you said, your second favorite week of the year is this week, right? >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Alright Ben, I want to give you the final word, you know, we've got another day, I'm sure you've got a ton of stuff in the announcements tomorrow. We're going to have Solomon on right after the key note tomorrow, but when people leave Austin, what do you want them to know about, you know, the Docker community and Docker the company? >> You know, I'd say that, you know, Docker is here, Docker is now, Docker is for old and for new, for on premise, and for cloud, for Lenix and for Windows. Docker is here for you, and however you want to use us, we're going to help you do amazing things faster. >> Alright, I think that's wonderful Cube gem to end this on, Ben Golub, CEO of Docker, always a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations on the show. We are thrilled to be able to be here to cover it. >> Okay. >> And we'll back with one more guest here, on our day one of two days of live coverage, you're watching theCUBE. (techno music)