>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. Presenting Accelerating Automation with DevNet. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got a great conversation and a virtual event, Accelerating Automation with DevNet , Cisco DevNet. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here. Cube alumni, Susie Wee, Vice President, Senior Vice President, GM, and also CTO of Cisco DevNet and Ecosystem Success CX, all that great stuff. Mandy Whaley, who's the Director, Senior Director of DevNet Certifications, And Eric Thiel, Director of Developer Advocacy, Susie, Mandy, Eric, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to see you, John. >> So we're not in person >> It's great to be here. >> We don't, can't be at the DevNet Zone. We can't be on site doing DevNet Create, all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years. We're virtual, theCUBE virtual. Thanks for coming on. Susie, I got to ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you had has been awesome, but DevNet Create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the DevNet community. This ties into the theme of accelerating automation with DevNet, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or XaaS as it's called (Susie laughs) and automation plays a critical role. Could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your vision? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are coming online as, well I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud, as they're growing in new areas, as we're dealing with security, as everyone's dealing with the pandemic, there's so many things going on. But what happens is, there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking, it has security, it has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need? And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable, and you don't need just apps riding on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation, you can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the stack by leveraging automation. >> You know, I remember a few years ago when DevNet Create first started, I interviewed Todd Nightingale, and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds about you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about then, this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was at Cisco Europe in Barcelona before all the COVID hit. And you had >> Susie: Yeah. >> The massive cloud surge and scale happening going on, right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that, because the businesses need to stay alive. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> I just want to get your thoughts on what's going on in your world, because you were there in person. Now we're six months in, scale is huge. >> We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home can I make sure that my IT infrastructure is automated? How from home can I make sure that every employee is out there and working safely and securely? You know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. So we had to extend business applications to people's homes in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what we had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate digitally transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still in that environment today. >> You know one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, Kubernetes microservices. So those things, again, all DevOps and, you know, you guys got some acquisitions, you've bought ThousandEyes, you got a new one. You just bought recently PortShift to raise the game in security, Kuber and all these microservices. So observability super hot, but then people go work at home as you mentioned. How do you (chuckles) >> Yeah What are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's Zooms and Web Ex's and education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this in the app side? How are you guys looking at the, what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this programmability challenge and observability challenge that's such a huge deal? >> Yeah, absolutely. And you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right? You know, back when we talked to Todd before, he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use, this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place. And now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger, at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers. And he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation and the APIs into all of it. But when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. They had to build in. And what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. All of that used to be an IT conversation. It became a CEO and a board-level conversation. So all of a sudden, CEOs were actually, you know, calling on the Heads of IT and the CIO and saying, you know, "How's our VPN connectivity? Is everybody working from home? How many people are connected and able to work and what's their productivity?" So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure IT stuff became a board level conversation and, you know, once again, at first everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people working, but now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >> Susie, I know you got to go, but real quick, describe what accelerating automation with DevNet means. >> (giggles)Well, you've been, you know, we've been working together on DevNet and the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time and the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people run things. Our DevNet community has risen to this challenge. People have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. You know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerating automation, while it is about going digital. It's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications, of, you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people, just as much as it is about automation and technology. >> And we got DevNet Create right around the corner, Virtual, unfortunately, won't be in person, but will be virtual. Susie, thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know you've got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. Thanks. >> Thank you so much. Have fun. >> Thank you. >> Thanks John. >> Okay. Mandy, you heard Susie, it's about people. And one of the things that's close to your heart, you've been driving as Senior Director of DevNet Certifications, is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity, network programmability, automation, network design, solution architect, cloud, multi-cloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >> Oh yes, absolutely. You know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers, that Susie was mentioning. Those are what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network automation engineer, network automation developer, which Susie mentioned, and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. >> Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this piece of getting the certifications. First, before we get started, describe what your role is as Director of Developer Advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact Switch, and get some certifications and yet they can code more. What's your role? >> Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our, historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the DevNet Creates, the Cisco Lives and helping the community connect and to help share technical information with them, doing hands on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? So that's had to pivot quite a bit. Obviously Cisco Live US, we pivoted very quickly to a virtual event when conditions changed. And we're able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in person where you're bound by the parameters of, you know, how big the convention center is, we were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our DevNet Day that was kind of attached onto Cisco Live. And we got great feedback from the audience that now we were actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We are always helping out build new sandboxes, new learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on the DevNet site. And then my team also looks after communities, such as the Cisco Learning Network where there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. We've seen a huge shift now in that group, that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the DevNet certifications and helping other people that are trying to get onboard with programmability. They're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with helping you answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the DevNet space as well, and are helping people with that set of certifications. So it's great seeing the community come along and really see that. >> I got to ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Is there anything in particular, obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been leader in that, but as you move up the stack as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? >> Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability now that we need it while we're virtual. So that's actually been a huge uptick and we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out' how can I do this at scale? And I think one good example that Susie was talking about the VPN example. And we actually had a number of SEs in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that IT departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you didn't normally look at in the old days. You would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. And when that number went to 100%, things like licenses started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they have the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the SEs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, use some open source tooling to monitor and alert on these things and then published it, so the whole community could go out and get a copy of it, try it out in their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that in trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >> That's great. Mandy, I want to get your thoughts on this too, because as automation continues to scale, it's going to be a focus and people are at home and you guys had a lot of content online for you recorded every session in the DevNet Zone. Learning's going on, sometimes linearly and non linearly. You got the certifications, which is great. That's key, great success there. People are interested, but what other learnings are you seeing? What are people doing? What's the top top trends? >> Yeah. So what we're seeing is like you said, people are at home, they've got time. They want to advance their skillset. And just like any kind of learning, people want choice they want to be able to choose what matches their time that's available and their learning style. So we're seeing some people who want to dive into full online study groups with mentors leading them through a study plan. And we have two new expert-led study groups like that. We're also seeing whole teams at different companies who want to do an immersive learning experience together with projects and office hours and things like that. And we have a new offer that we've been putting together for people who want those kinds of team experiences called Automation Bootcamp. And then we're also seeing individuals who want to be able to, you know, dive into a topic, do a hands-on lab, get some skills, go to the rest of the day of do their work and then come back the next day. And so we have really modular self-driven hands-on learning through the DevNet Fundamentals course, which is available through DevNet. And then there's also people who are saying, "I just want to use the technology. "I like to experiment and then go, you know, "read the instructions, read the manual, "do the deeper learning." And so they're spending a lot of time in our DevNet sandbox, trying out different technologies, Cisco technologies with open source technologies, getting hands-on and building things. And three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest in specific technologies. One is around SD-WAN. There's a huge interest in people skilling up there because of all the reasons that we've been talking about. Security is a focus area where people are dealing with new scale, new kinds of threats, having to deal with them in new ways. and then automating their data center using infrastructure as code type principles. So those are three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest and you'll be hearing some more about that at DevNet Create. >> Awesome. Eric and Mandy, if you guys can wrap up this Accelerating Automation with DevNet package and virtual event here and also tee up DevNet Create because DevNet Create has been a very kind of grassroots, organically building momentum over the years. And again, it's super important cause it's now the app world coming together with networking, you know, end to end programmability and with everything as a service that you guys are doing, everything with APIs, I only can imagine the enablement that's going to create. >> Mandy: Yeah >> Can you share the summary real quick on Accelerating Automation with DevNet and tee up DevNet Create. Mandy, we'll start with you. >> Yes, I'll go first and then Eric can close this out. So just like we've been talking about with you at every DevNet event over the past years, you know, DevNet's bringing APIs across our whole portfolio, and up and down the stack and Accelerating Automation with DevNet , Susie mentioned the people aspect of that. The people skilling up and how that transforms teams, And I think that it's all connected in how businesses are being pushed on their transformation because of current events. That's also a great opportunity for people to advance their careers and take advantage of some of that quickly changing landscape. And so what I think about Accelerating Automation with DevNet, it's about the DevNet community. It's about people getting those new skills and all the creativity and problem solving that will be unleashed by that community with those new skills. >> Eric, take us home here, Accelerating Automation with DevNet and DevNet Create, a lot of developer action going on in Cloud Native right now, your thoughts. >> Absolutely. I think it's exciting. I mentioned the transition to virtual for DevNet Day this year, for Cisco Live and we're seeing, we're able to leverage it even further with Create this year. So, whereas it used to be, you know, confined by the walls that we were within for the event. Now we're actually able to do things like we're adding the Start Now track for people that want to be there. They want to be a developer, a network automation developer for instance, we've now got a track just for them where they can get started and start learning some of the skills they'll need, even if some of the other technical sessions were a little bit deeper than what they were ready for. So I love that we're able to bring that together with the experienced community that we usually do from across the industry bringing us all kinds of innovative talks, talking about ways that they're leveraging technology, leveraging the cloud to do new and interesting things to solve their business challenges. So I'm really excited to bring that whole mix together, as well as getting some of our business units together too and talk straight from their engineering departments. What are they doing? What are they seeing? What are they thinking about when they're building new APIs into their platforms? What problems are they hoping that customers will be able to solve with them? So I think together seeing all of that and then bringing the community together from all of our usual channels. So like I said, Cisco learning network, we've got a ton of community coming together, sharing their ideas and helping each other grow those skills. I see nothing but acceleration ahead of us for automation. >> Awesome. Thanks so much. >> I would >> Go ahead, Mandy. >> Can I add one more thing? >> Add one more thing. >> Yeah, I was just going to say the other really exciting thing about Create this year with the virtual nature of it is that it's happening in three regions and you know, we're so excited to see the people joining from all the different regions and content and speakers and the regions stepping up to have things personalized to their area, to their community. And so that's a whole new experience for DevNet Create that's going to be fantastic this year. >> Yeah, that's it. I was going to close out and just put the final bow on that by saying that you guys have always been successful with great content focused on the people in the community. I think now during, with this virtual DevNet, virtual DevNet create virtual theCUBE virtual, I think we're learning new things. People are working in teams and groups and sharing content, we're going to learn new things. We're going to try new things and ultimately people will rise up and will be resilient. And I think when you have this kind of opportunity, it's really fun. And we'll ride the wave with you guys. >> So thank you so much (Susie laughs) for taking the time to come on theCUBE and talk about your awesome Accelerating Automation and DevNet Create Looking forward to it, thank you. >> Thank you so much, >> All right, thanks a lot. >> Happy to be here. >> Okay, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE virtual here in Palo Alto studios doing the remote content and men, we stay virtual until we're face to face. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at DevNet Create. Thanks for watching. (upbeat outro) >> Controller: Okay John, Here we go, John. Here we go. John, we're coming to you in five, four, three, two. >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got a great conversation and a virtual event, Accelerating Automation with DevNet, Cisco DevNet. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here. Cube alumni, Susie Wee, Senior Vice President GM and also CTO at Cisco DevNet and Ecosystem Success CX, all that great stuff. Mandy Whaley, who's the Director, Senior Director of DevNet Certifications, and Eric Thiel, Director of Developer Advocacy. Susie, Mandy, Eric, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to see you, John. So we're not in person. >> It's great to be here >> We don't, can't be at the DevNet zone. We can't be on site doing DevNet Create, all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years. We're virtual, theCUBE virtual. Thanks for coming on. Susie, I got to ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you had has been awesome. But DevNet Create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the DevNet community. This ties into the theme of Accelerating Automation with DevNet, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or XaaS as it's called. And automation plays (Susie laughs) a critical role. Could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your vision? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are coming online as ,well I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud, as they're growing in new areas, as we're dealing with security, as everyone's dealing with the pandemic, there's so many things going on, but what happens is there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking. It has security. It has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need. And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable and you don't need just apps riding on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation. You can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the stack by leveraging automation. >> You know, I remember a few years ago when DevNet Create first started, I interviewed Todd Nightingale and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds, but you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about then, this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was Cisco Europe in Barcelona before all the COVID hit. And you had this massive cloud surge and scale happening going on right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever, the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that because the businesses need >> Absolutely. >> to stay alive. I just want to get your thoughts on what's going on in your world, because you were there in person now we're six months in scale is huge. >> We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is, as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home, can I make sure that my IT infrastructure is automated? How from home can I make sure that every employee is out there and working safely and securely, you know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. So we had to extend business applications to people's homes in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they wouldn't let, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what we had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate, digitally transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still all in that environment today. >> You know one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, Kubernetes microservices. So those things, again, all DevOps and you know, you guys got some acquisitions, you bought ThousandEyes, you got a new one. You just bought recently PortShift to raise the game in security, Kuber and all these microservices. So observability is super hot, but then people go work at home as you mentioned. How do you observe, what are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's Zooms and Web Ex's and education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this in the app side? How are you guys looking at the, what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this programmability challenge and observability challenges? It's a huge deal. >> Yeah, absolutely. And you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right? You know, back when we talked to Todd before he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use, this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place. And now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers and he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation and the APIs into all of it. But when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. They had to build in. And what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. All of that used to be an IT conversation. It became a CEO and a board level conversation. So all of a sudden CEOs were actually, you know, calling on the heads of IT and the CIO and saying, you know, how's our VPN connectivity? Is everybody working from home. How many people are you know, connected and able to work and what's their productivity? So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure IT stuff became a board level conversation. And, you know once again, at first everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people working. But now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >> Susie, I know you got to go, but real quick, describe what Accelerating Automation with DevNet means. >> (laughs) Well, you know, we've been working together on DevNet in the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time. And the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people run things. Our DevNet community has risen to this challenge. People have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. You know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerating automation, while it is about going digital, it's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications, of you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people just as much as it is about automation and technology. >> And we got DevNet Create right around the corner virtual, unfortunately won't be in person, but will be virtual. Susie, thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. Thanks. >> Thank you so much. Have fun. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, John. >> Okay, Mandy, you heard Susie, it's about people. And one of the things that's close to your heart you've been driving is, as senior director of DevNet Certifications is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity, network programmability, automation, network design, solution architect, cloud multicloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >> Oh yes, absolutely. You know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers that Susie was mentioning. Those are what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network automation engineer, network automation developer which Susie mentioned, and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. And this is why we created the DevNet certification. Several years ago, our DevNet community, who's been some of those engineers who have been coming into that software and infrastructure side and meeting. They ask us to help create a more defined pathway to create resources, training, all the things they would need to take all those steps to go after those new jobs. >> Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this piece of getting the certifications. First, before we get started, describe what your role is as Director of Developer Advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact Switch, and get some certifications and yet they can code more. What's your role >> Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our, historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the DevNet Creates, the Cisco Lives and helping the community connect and to help share technical information with them, doing hands-on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? So that's had to pivot quite a bit. Obviously Cisco Live US, we pivoted very quickly to a virtual event when conditions changed and we were able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in-person where you're bound by the parameters of you know, how big the convention center is. We were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our DevNet Day that was kind of attached onto Cisco Live. And we got great feedback from the audience that now we were actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We were always helping out build new sandboxes new learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on the DevNet site. And then my team also looks after communities such as the Cisco Learning Network where there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. And we've seen a huge shift now in that group that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the DevNet certifications and helping other people that are trying to get on board with programmability, they're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with, you know, helping answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the DevNet space as well, and are helping people with that set of certifications. So it's great seeing the community come along and really see that. >> Yeah, I mean, it's awesome, and first of all, you guys done a great job. I'm always impressed when we were at physical events in the DevNet Zone, just the learning, the outreach. Again, very open, collaborative, inclusive, and also, you know, you had one-on-one classes and talks to full blown advanced, (sneezes)Had to sneeze there >> Yeah, and that's the point. >> (laughs)That was coming out, got to cut that out. I love prerecords. >> Absolutely. >> That's never happened to me to live by the way. I've never sneezed live on a thousand--. (Eric laughs) >> You're allergic to me. >> We'll pick up. >> It happens. >> So Eric, so I got to ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Is there anything in particular? Obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been a leader in that, but as you move up the stack, as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? >> Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability now that we need it while we're virtual. So that's actually been a huge uptick. And we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out how can I do this at scale? And I think one good example that Susie was talking about the VPN example. And we actually had a number of SEs in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that IT departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you didn't normally look at in the old days, you would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. And when that number went to 100%, things like licensing started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they had the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the SEs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, used some open source tooling to monitor and alert on these things and then published it, so the whole community could go out and get a copy of it, try it out in their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that in trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >> That's huge and you know, you brought up this sharing concept. I mean, one of the things that's interesting is you've got more sharing going on. >> Controller: John, let's pause right here. Let's pause right here. I'm going to try and bring Eric and Mandy and everybody out. And then just start right from here to bring Eric and Mandy back in and close up. Stand by Eric just hold tight. >> All right, hold on >> Controller: just for one moment. Hold tight, we got Mandy back >> Controller: Standby. Standby. Standby. Standby, standby, standby. Hold hold hold.

>> Narrator: Live from London, England, it's theCUBE covering AWS summit London 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to XL London everybody, My name is Dave Velante and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is our one-day coverage of AWS summit, London. theCUBE will go up to the events we extract the signal of the noise and I have recruited a co-host Theresa Carlson who's a friend and vice president worldwide public sector at AWS and we have a really special segment for you today. Anna Sergeant is here. She's a computing teacher and Charlotte who's a student at Townley. Wait till you see what we have in store for you. Theresa, let's get it started. So first of all, welcome (mumbles). >> Well, and I'm so thrilled to be your co-host, I just wanna tell you that right now. >> That's a first for you, right? >> Yes, it is. >> I finally got one up on for you. >> Yeah, exactly, I get to be on theCUBE (mumbles). >> So here's the deal, so you have this GetIT program. Tell us what that's all about and then we'll get into it. >> Well you know, we talked about over the last few years just in general about skills. Skills development, how critical it is and important for every age and GetIT is really a continuation of what we're trying to do to create job skills around cloud computing at every age, especially in elementary and primary school years. So GetIT today, what you're going to see from both Charlotte and Anna is we did a competition, there was over 160 applicants and it got netted down to ten schools that came here today and then we had two finalists and then we deemed a winner and they're going to get support and help but also, all these schools are gonna get support and help but it's really about the experience of them learning how to utilize cloud computing in a real-world application that actually matters to them which you can also fight to kind of social responsibility which most of these young people really relate to because they want to do something that matters to them. Just tech for tech is not exciting but tech for good is very exciting and I think that's what you're gonna hear about here today. >> We love to talk about tech for good and Anna, you're at the heart of this so how did you get into this, how did you get this all started, tell us your story. >> Well, my head teacher is quite an innovative person and she's been in conversations with Amazon and Future Foundations and they came to the school with the idea last year and invited the school to be part of the pilot program and so the Amazon ambassadors delivered their presentation to the school in September and as a team in the computing department, we got together and said, well we think this is a great opportunity for girls in tech. So we actually rolled it out as an actual scheme of lessons so the whole year eight, so that's 224 year eight students got together. They all were divided into groups of their own choice and we gave them the outline or the brief and said you know, think of an app for good that would fulfill a social need in your community. So think about the community and prepare a pitch and we then set timelines and deadlines and helped them through the research and obviously spoke to Amazon, came to the London offices as well and spent some time with your colleagues in the London office and you know, and then basically helped the girls pitch their final idea. >> So Charlotte, you got this prompt essentially and then you took it from there. Tell us a little bit about yourself and then how this all came about and what you guys did with that prompt. >> And today is your birthday so happy birthday. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. So basically I'm 13 at the moment but we've been doing this project in year eight as Anna said and basically, we were given the idea to make an app and everyone was really excited initially, but we weren't too sure about what we wanted to make it on and we were lucky enough to have the choice to choose whatever topic we wanted to make it on and kind of decide what cause we wanted to help and the solution to help it with and then we were given loads of help with the Amazon ambassadors and they really were like really kinda generous with all their help. They came to visit us and they watched our presentations and it really gained our confidence because we presented to the class and in front of the teachers and Amazon ambassadors and it's been really lovely because we've been able to gain skills that we didn't have before in computing and it's gained our confidence, it's boosted it and we've just become much like more interested in STEM and computing. >> Charlotte, let me ask you, what was your application about and what inspired you for the application? >> So my app was called Positive Of Me and we based it off of a mental health and kind of having a more positive outlook on life and we decided to do that topic because we thought that it was really important to students to have a stress-free time in school rather than always feeling stressed and under the weather because they have a lot of work or they're under-organized and stuff like that so we believe that it was quite important to help people like that so our features included like a planner, a mood tracker and just other things to kind of keep you organized and happy throughout your school life. >> So fascinated by the adoption of this approach and were you always interested in STEM or was it something that, this catalyzed your interests in your colleagues. >> I was always interested in STEM and in Townley, they like promote it a lot and they're very interested in like, because it's an all-girls school. We promote females and like we try to make sure that girls are interested in all subjects no matter what and it's been quite nice but I believe that it kind of made me more interested in STEM with my classmates because we've had a fun experience. It's not just been doing computing, it's been having a fun experience. We've been designing our own thing that we're passionate about so it's been really lovely in that sense. >> Dave: So, please go ahead. >> Well, I was gonna ask you, how did you bring it together as a group. What were kind of the core components that you worked on to bring the app together and then have the final that you got here today with. >> So we kind of thought of the idea first about mental health, that was kind of our starting point and then we developed it to what features we can include in the app. We made a mind map saying whatever features we wanted, what topics we wanted to cover and then we thought about the target audiences and they really helped us think about this in the boot camp that they hosted. It was really helpful because Amazon ambassadors came to each kind of app and they helped us with what we could include and how to build on that idea. So that helped us include the target audiences, the ages that we wanted to target our app towards and it kind of helped us with that general theme and how many features we wanted to include. >> Because you had time pressures, right, so you have to make some trade-offs. So how did you make those trade-offs? You just talked to the potential recipients of the app or sort of brainstorm? >> We did a lot of surveys to what features people thought were the most important for our app and a lot of groups did that because it kind of, because there were a few different times that we needed to get it done by and every time we obviously had a time limit and so we needed to put the most important features in to our PowerPoints and our presentations and the prototypes and so people, we did surveys and people answered what features they thought were the most important to put in the app and then we implemented those before any other like more unnecessary ones. >> How did you organize your team? How many pizzas did they eat? >> Did you hear about that two pizza team, did Amazon talk to you about, Amazon Web Services, that if you had more people on your team that feeds two pizzas, that's too many 'cause that way you can move faster. >> We mainly decided to team because we got to choose like our friends to work with and obviously, we work better with the people who we're more comfortable around. So that was quite nice that we got to decide who we worked with but then the roles that we were given, we kind of just decided on what each person knew the most about, wanted to do research on and then from there, we kind of just carried on with the topics that we were initially started with. >> You told me something a while ago that really peaked my interest. You said you're an all-girl school and you almost had to reverse engineer your gender because it was all too pink. Can you talk about your thinking around a different kind of diversity. >> So basically we wanted to make the app like accept all the beliefs and stuff so that was our main focus with diversity and we didn't really realize initially that it was mainly quite girly, but then when we presented our initial presentation, obviously we got through the first round where we presented to the class but then we got some feedback from Miss and she really helped us telling us that you know, we want to make it unisex so that it's more approachable for all people and all students rather than just girls schools and then it would have more not purchases but it would have more audience. >> Yeah, better adoption but so, what did that involve? Was it colors, was it language, was it, what made it less girly? >> I mean, it was more colors and the whole theme of the app like the logo. We made it logo that was quite like not young, but quite young and girly a bit and it was mainly the colors though. We did like pink, which is, I mean it's traditionally seen as girly, pink, so we tried to make it, we searched up like unisex colors and it was more green, purple, blue, stuff like that so we implemented that into our app in the second round so that it was more unisex. >> Last time I interviewed you, I had my pink tie and pink shirt on. >> Yes, which I like, I think that was good. I've got my unisex on screen but one of the things that you did do that I really liked is you did the usability which you went out and you asked individuals what features would they like the most. I think that was really important and you can of course always do that with those boys and girls and figure out but that was really smart. So let me ask you another question. One of the things that we do find with girls and something I've been passionate about is they don't get into STEM or technology and they don't stay there. After going through this experience, one, do you think you might be more inclined to stay with technology and then I'd like to just know your opinion on how we can continue to forward this with girls after this experience, what else would you recommend? >> Yes, so as I said earlier, Townley promotes STEM massively. They have STEM days and everything so the girls at our school, we are really interested in it. This project has like really boosted my confidence and like my interest in STEM though because it's, as I said, it's made it more fun. It's not only just doing the computing work, it's made it a fun way to do it and you're working for, you're targeting towards an achievement at the end, to get the app made so everyone's trying really hard to get it done and that kind of gains your knowledge and then you learn all the new technology as you're going along so it's quite interesting. >> What are your thoughts on that Anna. I mean, we're always having this discussion on theCUBE. You look around the show, amazing show first of all, but there's a lot of men here. The line out the men's room is huge and so, because in a male-dominated industry, you look inside your own circles and your circles happen to be other men's so it's a challenge that we want to surface and be aware of. What more would your recommendations be to break those barriers? >> To do the programs like this, to actually go into schools and encourage young people because I think by encouraging all young people you know, you'll get the diversity and also the awareness. We're very subject driven in a way that our education system and actually a lot of the job roles out there we're in school, we're not aware of because we're busy teaching. So it's great to actually come in and we think about app developers and we think about testers and we think about programmers but there's all the other aspects as well which actually, unless industry comes into education and helps us show the students what the breadth of roles are out there you know, it's very easy for students to just go into a sort of like a very sort of set path. So by having programs like this coming into schools and having the industry come and talk to the students and inspire them is you know, a fantastic opportunity hence the reason why we decided to run in the whole year eight, the program >> And I've seen, like you saw today from all the groups but the kind of tech for good that the girls and the boys were able to actually decide on something that was meaningful to them and I've seen that a lot just around the world that when you go and talk to children about tech, you've got to connect the dots and I think you guys did that really well and what you were doing with your particular application but across the board the thing that we saw today which I think inspired them even more 'cause it was the thing that they were passionate about which teaches them along the way. >> Yes, yeah. >> So we love tech and I was introduced at age 12, the C prompt and learn basic. Kids today, you learn tech before you can speak you're you know, punching devices but so what was the tech behind what you were doing. Were you programming, were using cloud technologies. What was behind it? >> We mainly use more simple technology and most of the work was just making PowerPoint presentations and Word documents but obviously there were side things like we made the surveys on Word. We used Photoshop to make prototypes of the screens for the app and we learned a lot of technology at the bootcamp as well. We learned about the different kind of things we could use to make features of the app work and we learnt about obviously, Amazon were like the leaders of the program. >> You Learned about S3 storage, right. You learned about EC2, you learned about all the applications in AWS that you could build it because at the end as you build it, you'll use hopefully all those technologies is what we'll be helping you with. >> You know what I love about this story though is, and Teresa you know this, you can do almost anything with tech. Now sometimes it's too expensive or too complicated but the tech in many ways is the least important. It's more important to understand what the consumer wants, what the customer wants, what that experience is like, what the colors should be, right and then you can make the tech, apply the tech to solve that problem. >> 100%, and put all those tools together but I do hope that you learned what cloud computing was during your, because that was, I always kind of joke because one of the students at the beginning they use it but they don't always know what cloud computing is. So kind of learning the scalability and how, the ease and testing and just moving fast. So I think that's what you guys have done in a big way. From a teacher's point of view, are there other aspects that you think that should be done like either continued or done even better or faster that we're not getting to. >> This is definitely a step in the right direction. We are a bit more traditional because we introduce the students to Python. So they sort of start programming using Python and perhaps we should look more at cloud technology in greater detail in schools but we're kind of a little bit behind in terms of education in the way that we actually, and we need and we need to speed that up. >> And this is one of the big things that we're trying to do on the AWS side, is bring the new technologies into education because that is the highlight of what we see is there's using kind of older outdated technologies and getting them excited to understand how they learn with and utilize new technologies within AWS and a cloud platform because you can move faster, experiment, have quick failures and recoveries and the expenses you know a lot less expensive than you normally did. >> Well I've been around a long time. AWS changed the world and it changed it from a world where technology, especially information technology and enterprises was a world of no. We can't do that because it'll take too long, it's too expensive, no, no, no and what Amazon has done has sort of removed all that friction and turned it into a world yes you know, and builders and it's just amazing what's happening. You're the future and it's really such a pleasure having you both today. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> Anna and Charlotte and of course Teresa, thank you guys for being on theCUBE. >> It's an honor, I agree, it's an honor to co-host but to have you guys and hear your passion and excitement for what you're doing. So my advice, keep it up, don't give up, stick with technology and STEM, you will not regret it, it's a great career. >> And have fun, all right, thanks again. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right and thank you for watching. Keep it right there, we'll be back with our next guest. We're live from the Excel center here at AWS summit London, you're watching theCUBE. (light electronic music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas. It's the CUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, with my co-host, James Kobielus, who's been digging into all the application development angles. Happy to welcome back to the program, here at DockerCon, Yaron Haviv, who is the co-founder and CTO of iguazio. Yaron, great to see you. >> Thanks. >> How have you been? >> Great, great, been busy traveling a lot. >> We talked about how some of us celebrated Passover recently, I had brisket at home. We had Franklin's Barbecue brisket here. Anthony Bourdain said the only two people that know how to do brisket well, are Franklin's and the Jews. (all laugh) >> So we had Passover, a lot of good food, but also a lot of traveling. I was also in a Kubernetes conference in Europe and here. Prior to that, big data show, so it's a lot of traveling. >> Kubernetes, Docker, Ecosystem. You've been watching this, your company is involved in it. What's your take on the state of the ecosystem, and what do you think of the announcements this week? >> You know, I have also been to the Kubernetes conference, and you see those are still small, relatively small shows. And it's mostly developer focused. What we see is that Kubernetes is taking a lot of share from the others, because most of the guys that adopt are not enterprises yet. It's people that have a large enough infrastructure that they want to use it internally, and Kubernetes is a little more flexible. And on the other end, you see Docker trying to create a greenware-like, shrink wrapped, version of container infrastructure. So we see those two, and there's obviously the Public Cloud with their fully integrated stack. Now, what I notice here in the show, and also when, a couple of weeks ago, in the Kubernetes conference, think about the stack. It has, let's say, 20 components. So someone like Amazon brings the entire 20 components, and it's fully integrated and secure and networking and storage and data services and everything. And here, what you'll see, is a lot of vendors, this guy has those four components, the other guys have those five components, in some cases they actually overlap. So this guy will have three unique components, and two other components, et cetera. And it's very hard to assemble a full blown solution. So as a buyer, how do you decide which components am I going to choose? That's part of the challenge, and also helps serve the cloud guys. >> I remember when I first joined at Wikibon, we talked about, the hyperscale model was you take your team of PhDs, you just architect your application and software. You're the enterprise though, you don't have that talent. So you will spend money to buy that packaged solution. I want to buy it as a service, I want to buy it easy. Where do you see the maturity of this market, and how that fits for, and what can the enterprise consume, how do they do it? Or do they just go to platforms? >> So this is why our positioning was, it was a platform. We are not a component. We are a fully integrated system. We have multi-tendency, we have security, we have data lifecycle management. We integrate with applications, we have our own UI. But it's focused more on the data services. So if you take a dozen Amazon data services, you need to send Dynamo, and others, and object and file. We basically pack all of them, because data is the biggest challenge, as you know. High volubility, versioning, reliability, security. The biggest and toughest challenge is the data. And once you solve that one, the applications, they all become stateless, and that's much easier. There still needs to be a bigger ecosystem around it, which is why we are doing a lot more work with CNCF. And trying to create standards for the different interactions between those components. So when a buyer goes and buys a certain component from one vendor, it doesn't necessarily lock in to that. They can just go and modify it in the future. I think once you solve the data problem, of the persistency, which is sort of the toughest challenge in this environment, the rest of it becomes simpler. >> One of the questions James has been asking this week, is where analytics fits in? I look at your real-time continuous analytics piece, not an application that I heard talked about too much, maybe we can get your viewpoint on it? >> And the relevance is, of course, much of the application development that is going on, the hot stuff, is related to artificial intelligence, on streaming analytics, clearly continuous. >> Which is where we focus on. Some of the things that I try, to work with different communities, it's explained, that right now we have bifurcation, we have the Apache ecosystem, and we have the Docker ecosystem, totally separate ecosystems, and by the way, you know that cloud is where most analytics happen. >> James: Yes. >> So basically, analytics and cloud technology have to converge. This is what we have been trying to pitch, is why do you use YARN, as a scheduler, where I can use Kubernetes, and it's more generic. Because I can schedule any type of work. So this is something that we are trying to push, and all this notion of continuous integration, when we say continuous analytics, it's not just about the real-time aspect, it's also about the continuous development and integration. >> James: Yes. >> So you actually want this notion of server-less function, which is one of the things I like. Also, just immutable code and infrastructure, you want to adopt those notions, so analytics is going to go into real-time, more and more. So that means, unless I have my connected car pipeline that I get streams, and I process it, and I generate insights. What happens if I find a bug in my application, or I just want to enhance it, and create another feature? So I want to be able to just push a new version, of my analytics code into some platforms, hopefully ours. >> You also want to train that new algorithm as well, to make sure it's fit for whatever specific... >> Yeah, but you have to have this notion of continuity, which means all the integrations we did, have to be different, it has to be a lot more atomic. >> Yeah. >> It has to be check-pointed. All those things that I can basically knock down my analytic process, and relaunch it, and it goes seamlessly and continues. And that's not the Apache model, to play around at bootcamp enough, it's a lot more Legacy kind of approach, which I don't connect to too much. >> Yaron, maybe complete out the stack that you're building, how does serverless fit into this also? >> Okay, so basically, we are building all the data engines, we are doing streaming, we are doing objects, files, NoSQL, SQL, for us it's all integrated into the same very high performance engine. We also have built in analytics, so we can build things like joints and aggregations, and all of the computations on the data as it injects, and it could basically present itself as many different things. Now one of the things we get asked from customers, and we demonstrated that in Strata, let's assume I'm throwing an image into this thing, I want to be able to immediately analyze the image, and say if there is a face, if there is something suspicious about the picture, or maybe even simple things, like extract meta-data information, like geolocation of the picture, so I can do something with it. So we had to develop internally, an event driven process, we didn't call it serverless internally, where you throw data, and it immediately launches and triggers a process, which is a Docker container based process. It has high speed message bust integration into our data platform, that immediately invokes and processes that in a very elastic fashion. So if you throw thousands of objects, it elastically generates multiple workers to work on that, and that's also how we design things like DR, and backup internally in our platform to be very flexible, so we can build DR to S3. How do we do it? We basically have serverless functions that know how to convert the updates into a continuous stream of updates, and then they just go and there is a small code that says "Go right to S3". And that allows me a lot flexibility to develop new features. So this is all this notion of data lifecycle management, with every advance in our product, is actually based on serverless functions, we just didn't call it serverless. One of the things that we're working on with the community, is trying to detach that portion from our product, and contribute it as an open-source projects, because it's much faster and much more optimized than what you'll see, including IBM Whisk or Amazon Lambda implementation of that. >> Are you working with the Apache... Are you working in the context of the Apache framework to expose, for example, machine learning pipeline functions as serverless functions? >> So again, Apache is not the right necessarily place to do that. >> You can do them in Spark. >> I do them in Spark and all that, but we do want the Kubernetes environment to deal with all the constriction requirements for that thing. The way that we do, for example, tensorflow integration is we may expose file into tensor float, on one end, to be able to look at the image, and the same time the metadata updates, so what the image contains is exposed to tensorflow as sort of a key value store, or document store. It just updates attributes on the same image. So the way that we work now with healthcare, an MRI image lands and something looks at the MRI image, and senses cancer. Basically, you can mainly attack the same image, with records, which fields say contains cancer by this guy, take picture of this guy. And then, when you want to run a query, and say, you know what, give me all the MRIs pictures that contain query, it now flips and acts like a database, and you just pull all those images. It's a different approach to how to do those things. >> Yaron talked about Docker containers, Kubernetes, serverless, how do virtual machines fit into the environment? >> I had some interesting conversations at Kubernetes with some friends that are high ranked in this industry, without disclosing, do you really need openstack in between bare metal and containers? Because the traditional approach is, Okay, we have bare metal, we need to put virtualization layer for isolation, and then we need to put Kubernetes or Docker. And we figure out that very little amount of risk, actually, in putting, especially with the new security, things around containers and image signing, and what we do, which is authenticating the container, not the infrastructure on data access, network isolation, all those things that eventually can collapse and eliminate virtualization, but not for every application. Some applications which are more traditional Legacy, the application may still require VMs, because it's quite a different philosophy to develop microservices and develop VMs. Apart of what I see here in the show is not everyone internalizes that. People still think in the notion of Here's my lightweight VM, that happen to be called Docker container, and I'm going to give it the volume, and I'm going to create snapshots on that volume, and all that stuff. But if you think about it, what is really microservices? It's about allowing this elasticity, so the same workload can spawn multiple workers, it's the ability to go and create update versions, it's the ability to knock down this container anytime I want, and just kill it and launch it in a different place. You know how Google works, or Amazon or Ebay, or all those guys. You're basically killing containers on purpose, to basically test their system. All this notion that my configuration and my logs and all that stuff, sits inside the container, is not cloud native, and it doesn't allow this elasticity that you want if you're building a Netflix or an Ebay, or a modern enterprise infrastructure. So I think we need to put those two things aside. You have Legacy applications, keep them in the VMs. You have new workloads, you need to think of data, and data integration, and microservices differently on something which is entirely stateless. The image of the container builds from the get. OK? And create a Docker image. And if you want to go to a different image, you just go and recreate, from source, the same image. The data for that image needs to be stored in a data facility like a database or an object or something like that. >> Yaron, final question I have for you is, talk a little about the customers you're interacting with, talk about the people that are here, as you said, there's a spectrum of how far along they are in the thinking. You're pretty advanced in some of your architectural thoughts and opinionated as to where you're going. Where are the customers today, how many of them are ready for the future versus sticking to what they have got? >> So what you mentioned before, part of the key challenge for enterprises is they all want to move into the digital transformation, they all want to be competitive, because some have existential threats, think about even banks, today, where Apple comes with Apple Pay, it kills a lot of the margins they are making from all those small transactions. And now, no one really cares how many branches you have in the bank, because all the Y Generation just goes to their mobile app. Someone like a bank, have to immediately transition and be able to offer premium services, offer better experiences for the mobile application, be able to analyze user behavior, some things that are more strategic. The traditional things that IT deals with like exchange server management, SAP, all those Legacy things will move to the cloud, because there's no real value there. And what you see is more and more enterprises thinking about how do we generate the differentiation, which is more about analyzing data, and being able to provide better service to the customers, and the biggest challenge is they don't know how to do it. Because what the industry tells them, Go to Apache, and take a dozen of projects, and now integrate those and figure out the security problem, and you know what, you want to add Kubernetes, that's from a different story, but let's try and glue this together, and that's extremely complicated. So what we are trying to do is go to those customers, say you know what, we're building a full blown solution, fully integrated, security is baked in, all the different data services, it integrates with things like Kubernetes natively, we actually do the extra mile, we actually build Spark and tensorflow, and the images that contain everything, including support for us, that you can just launch Spark and it connects and works. We want to make life easier for those enterprises to solve those key challenges that they are working on. And this is working extremely well for us, actually the challenge we have, we only have, I think, two sales guys and we have a huge pipeline, and we can't really deliver for most of those projects. >> Good challenges to have sometimes, talk about scaling, which has been one of the themes of the week here. Yaron Haviv, great to catch up with you as always. We'll be back with two days of our coverage here, at DockerCon 2017. You're watching the CUBE. (electronic music)