>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Well everyone, welcome back to the live coverage of theCUBE here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon, Kubernetes Con 2018, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs, breaking down day two, wrapping up our coverage of KubeCon and all the success that we've seen with Kubernetes, I thought it would be really appropriate to bring on the cofounder of KubeCon originally, Joseph Jacks, known as JJ in the industry, a good friend of theCUBE and part of the early formation of what is now Cloud Native. We were all riffing on that at the time. welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me John. >> So, for the story, for the folks out there, you know Cloud Native was really seen by the devops community, and infrastructure code was no secret to the insiders in the timeframes from 2010 through 2015, 16 timeframe, but really it was an open stack summit. A lot of people were kind of like, hey, you know, Google's got Kubernetes, they're going to open it up and this could be a real game changer, container, Docker was flying off the shelves. So we just kind of saw, right, and you were there and we were talking so there was a group of us. You were one of them. And you founded KubeCon, and bolted into the, at that time, the satellite Linux Foundation events, and then you pass it off as a good community citizen to the CNCF, so I wanted to just make sure that people knew that. What a great success. What's your impression? I mean, are you blown away? >> I am definitely blown away. I mean I think the size and scale of the European audience is remarkable. We had something like slightly less than half this in Austin last year. So to see more than that come here in Europe I think shows the global kind of growth curve as well as like, I think, Dan and someone else was asking sort of raise your hand if you've been to Kubecon Austin and very few actually, so there's a lot of new people showing up in Europe. I think it just shows the demand-- >> And Dan's been traveling around. I've seen him in China, some events I've been to. >> Joseph: All over. >> He's really working hard so props to him. We gave him some great props earlier. But he also told us Shanghai is coming online. >> Joseph: Yeah. >> So you got Shanghai, you to Barcelona next year for the European show, and of course Seattle. This is a community celebrating right now because there's a lot of high fives going on right now because there's a lot of cool, we've got some sort of core standard, defacto standard, now let's go to work. What are you working on now? You got a stealth startup? Share a little bit about it. I know you don't want to give the details out, but where is it kind of above the stack? Where you going to be playing? >> Sure, so we're not talking too much in terms of specifics and we're pretty stealthy, but I can tell you what I'm personally very excited about in terms of where Kubernetes is going and kind of where this ecosystem is starting to mature for practitioners, for enterprises. So one of the things that I think Kubernetes is starting to bring to bear is this idea of commoditizing distributed systems for everyday developers, for everyday enterprises. And I think that that is sort of the first time in sort of maybe, maybe the history of software development, software engineering and building applications, we're standardizing on a set of primitives, a set of building blocks for distributed system style programming. You know we had in previous eras things like Erlang and fault tolerant programming and frameworks, but those were sort of like pocketed into different programming communities and different types of stacks. I think Kubernetes is the one sort of horizontal technology that the industry's adopting and it's giving us these amazing properties, so I think some of the things that we're focusing on or excited about involve sort of the programming layer on top of Kubernetes in simplifying the experience of kind of bringing all stateful and enterprise workloads and different types of application paradigms natively into Kubernetes without requiring a developer to really understand and learn the Kubernetes primitives themselves. >> That's next level infrastructure as code. Yeah so as Kubernetes becomes more successful, as Kubernetes succeeds at a larger and larger scale, people simply shouldn't have to know or understand the internals. There's a lot of people, I think Kelsey and a few other people, started to talk about Kubernetes as the Linux kernel of distributed computing or distributed systems, and I think that's a really great way of looking at it. You know, do programmers make file system calls directly when they're building their applications? Do they script directly against the kernel for maybe some very high performance things. But generally speaking when you're writing a service or you're writing a microservice or some business logic, you're writing at a higher level of abstraction and a language that's doing some IO and maybe some reading and writing files, but you're using higher level abstractions. So I think by the same token, the focus today with Kubernetes is people are learning this API. I think over time people are going to be programming against that API at a higher level. And what are you doing here, the show? Obviously you're (mumbles) so you're doing some (mumbles) intelligence. Conversations you've been in, can you share your opinion of what's going on here? Your thoughts on the content program, the architecture, the decisions they've made. >> I think we've just, so lots of questions in there. What am I doing here? I just get so energized and I'm so, I just get reinvigorated kind of being here and talking to people and it's just super cool to see a lot of old faces, people who've been here for a while, and you know, one of the things that excites me, and this is just like proof that the event's gotten so huge. I walk around and I see a lot of familiar faces, but more than 80, 90% of people I've never seen before, and I'm like wow this has like gotten really super huge mainstream. Talking with some customers, getting a good sense of kind of what's going on. I think we've seen two really huge kind of trends come out of the event. One is this idea of multicloud sort of as a focus area, and you've talked with Bassam at Upbound and the sort of multicloud control plane, kind of need and demand out there in the community and the user base. I think what Bassam's doing is extremely exciting. The other, so multicloud is a really big paradigm that most companies are sort of prioritizing. Kubernetes is available now on all the cloud providers, but how do we actually adopt it in a way that is agnostic to any cloud provider service. That's one really big trend. The second big thing that I think we're starting to see, just kind of across a lot of talks is taking the Kubernetes API and extending it and wrapping it around stateful applications and stateful workloads, and being able to sort of program that API. And so we saw the announcement from Red Hat on the operator framework. We've seen projects like Kube Builder and other things that are really about sort of building native custom Kubernetes APIs for your applications. So extensibility, using the Kubernetes API as a building block, and then multicloud. I think those are really two huge trends happening here. >> What is your view on, I'm actually going to put you on test here. So Red Hat made a bet on Kubernetes years ago when it was not obvious to a lot of the other big wales. >> Joseph: From the very beginning really. >> Yeah from the very beginning. And that paid off huge for Red Hat as an example. So the question is, what bets should people be making if you had to lay down some thought leadership on this here, 'cause you obviously are in the middle of it and been part of the beginning. There's some bets to be made. What are the bets that the IBMs and the HPs and the Cisco's and the big players have to make and what are the bets the startups have to make? >> Well yeah, there's two angles to that. I mean, I think the investment startups are making, are different set of investments and motivated differently than the multinational, huge, you know, technology companies that have billions of dollars. I think in the startup category, startups just should really embrace Kubernetes for speeding the way they build reliable and scalable applications. I think really from the very beginning Kubernetes is becoming kind of compelling and reasonable even at a very small scale, like for two or three node environment. It's becoming very easy to run and install and manage. Of course it gives you a lot of really great properties in terms of actually running, building your systems, adopting microservices, and scaling out your application. And that's what's sort of like a direct end user use case, startups, kind of building their business, building their stack on Kubernetes. We see companies building products on top of Kubernetes. You see a lot of them here on the expo floor. That's a different type of vendor startup ecosystem. I think there's lots of opportunities there. For the big multinationals, I think one really interesting thing that hasn't really quite been done yet, is sort of treating Kubernetes as a first-class citizen as opposed to a way to commercialize and enter a new market. I think one of the default ways large technology companies tend to look at something hypergrowth like Kubernetes and TensorFlow and other projects is wrapping around it and commercializing in some way, and I think a deeper more strategic path for large companies could be to really embed Kubernetes in the core kind of crown jewel IP assets that they have. So I'll give you an example, like, for let's just take SAP, I'll just pick on SAP randomly, for no reason. This is one of the largest enterprise software companies in the world. I would encourage the co-CEOs of SAP, for example. >> John: There's only one CEO now. >> Is there one CEO now? Okay. >> John: Snabe left. It's now (drowned out by talking). >> Oh, okay, gotcha. I haven't been keeping up on the SAP... But let's just say, you know, a CEO boardroom level discussion of replatforming the entire enterprise application stack on something like Kubernetes could deliver a ton of really core meaningful benefits to their business. And I don't think like deep super strategic investments like that at that level are being made quite yet. I think at a certain point in time in the future they'll probably start to be made that way. But that's how I would like look at smart investments on the bigger scale. >> We're not seeing scale yet with Kubernetes, just the toe is in the water. >> I think we're starting to see scale, John. I think we are. >> John: What's the scale number in clusters? >> I'll give you the best example, which came up today, and actually really surprised me which I think was a super compelling example. The largest retailer in China, so essentially the Amazon of China, JD.com, is running in production for years now at 20,000 compute nodes with Kubernetes, and their largest cluster is a 5,000 node cluster. And so this is pushing the boundary of the sort of production-- >> And I think that may be the biggest one I've heard. >> Yeah, that's certainly, I mean for a disclosed user that's pretty huge. We're starting to see people actually talk publicly about this which is remarkable. And there are huge deployments out there. >> We saw Tyler Jewell come on from WSO2. He's got a new thing called Ballerina. New programming language, have you seen that? >> Joseph: I have, I have. >> Thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on that? >> You know, I think that, so I won't make any particular specific comments on Ballerina, I'm not extremely informed on it. I did play with a little bit, I don't want to give any of my opinions, but what I'd say, and I think Tyler actually mentioned this, one of the things that I believe is going to be a big deal in the coming years, is so, trying to think of Kubernetes as an implementation detail, as the kernel, do you interact directly with that? Do you learn that interface directly? Are you sort of kind of optimizing your application to be sort of natively aware of those abstractions? I think the answer to all of those questions is no, and Kubernetes is sort of delegated as a compiler target, and so frankly like directionally speaking, I think what Ballerina's sort of design is aspiring towards is the right one. Compile time abstraction for building distributed systems is probably the next logical progression. I like to think of, and I think Brendan Burns has started to talk about this over the last year or two. Everyone's writing assembly code 'cause we're swimming yaml and configuration based designs and systems. You know, sort of pseudodeclarative, but more imperative in static configurations. When in reality we shouldn't be writing these assembly artifacts. We should be delegating all of this complexity to a compiler in the same way that you know, we went from assembly to C to higher level languages. So I think over time that starts to make a lot of sense, and we're going to see a lot of innovation here probably. >> What's your take on the community formation? Obviously, it's growing, so, any observations, any insight for the folks watching what's happening in the community, patterns, trends you'd see, like, don't like. >> I think we could do a better job of reducing politics amongst the really sort of senior community leaders, particularly who have incentives behind their sort of agendas and sort of opinions, since they work for various, you know, large and small companies. >> Yeah, who horse in this race. >> Sure, and there's, whether they're perverse incentives or not, I think net the project has such a high quality genuine, like humble, focused group of people leading it that there isn't much pollution and negativity there. But I think there could be a higher standard in some cases. Since the project is so huge and there are so many very fast moving areas of evolution, there tends to be sort of a fast curve toward many cooks being in the kitchen, you know, when new things materialize and I think that could be better handled. But positive side, I think like the project is becoming incredibly diverse. I just get super excited to see Aparna from Google leading the project at Google, both on the hosted Saas offering and the Kubernetes project. People like Liz and others. And I just think it's an awesome, welcoming, super diverse community. And people should really highlight that more. 'Cause I think it's a unique asset of the project. >> Well you're involved in some deep history. I think we're going to be looking this as moment where there was once a KubeCon that was not part of the CNCF, and you know, you did the right thing, did a good thing. You could have kept it to yourself and made some good cash. >> It's definitely gotten really big, and it's way beyond me now at this point. >> Those guys did a good job with CNCF. >> They're doing phenomenal. I think vast majority of the credit, at this scale, goes to Chris Anasik and Dan Conn, and the events team at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, and obviously Kelsey and Liz and Michelle Noorali and many others. But blood, sweat, and tears. It's no small feat pulling off an event like this. You know, corralling the CFP process, coordinating speakers, setting the themes, it's a really huge job. >> And now they got to deal with all the community, licenses, Lauren your thoughts? >> Well they're consistent across Apache v2 I believe is what Dan said, so all the projects under the CNCF are consistently licensed. So I think that's great. I think they actually have it together there. You know, I do share your concerns about the politics that are going on a little bit back and forth, the high level, I tend to look back at history a little bit, and for those of us that remember JBoss and the JBoss fork, we're a little bit nervous, right? So I think that it's important to take a look at that and make sure that that doesn't happen. Also, you know, open stack and the stuff that we've talked about before with distros coming out or too many distros going to be hitting the street, and how do we keep that more narrow focused, so this can go across-- >> Yeah, I started this, I like to list rank and iterate things, and I started with this sheet of all the vendors, you know, all the Kubernetes vendors, and then Linux Foundation, or CNCF took it over, and they've got a phenomenal sort of conformance testing and sort of compliance versioning sheet, which lists all the vendors and certification status and updates and so on and I think there's 50 or 60 companies. On one hand I think that's great, because it's more innovation, lots of service providers and offerings, but there is a concern that there might be some fragmentation, but again, this is a really big area of focus, and I think it's being addressed. Yeah, I think the right ones will end up winning, right? >> Joseph: Right, for sure. >> and that's what's going to be key. >> Joseph: Healthy competition. >> Yes. >> All right final question. Let's go around the horn. We'll start with you JJ, wrapping up KubeCon 2018, your thoughts, summary, what's happened here? What will we talk about next year about what happened this week in Denmark? >> I think this week in Denmark has been a huge turning point for the growth in Europe and sort of proof that Kubernetes is on like this unstoppable inflection, growth curve. We usually see a smaller audience here in Europe, relative to the domestic event before it. And we're just seeing the numbers get bigger and bigger. I think looking back we're also going to see just the quality of end users and the end user community and more production success stories starting to become front and center, which I think is really awesome. There's lots of vendors here. But I do believe we have a huge representation of end users and companies actually sharing what they're doing pragmatically and really changing their businesses from Financial Times to Cern and physics projects, and you know, JD and other huge companies. I think that's just really awesome. That's a unique thing of the Kubernetes project. There's some hugely transformative companies doing awesome things out there. >> Lauren your thoughts, summary of the week in Denmark? >> I think it's been awesome. There's so much innovation happening here and I don't want to overuse that word 'cause I think it's kind of BS at some point, but really these companies are doing new things, and they're taking this to new levels. I think that hearing about the excitement of the folks that are coming here to actually learn about Kubernetes is phenomenal, and they're going to bring that back into their companies, and you're going to see a lot more actually coming to Europe next year. I also true multicloud would be phenomenal. I would love that if you could actually glue those platforms together, per se. That's really what I'm looking for. But also security. I think security, there needs to be a security seg. We talked to customers earlier. That's something they want to see. I think that that needs to be something that's brought to the table. >> That's awesome. My view is very simple. You know I think they've done a good job in CNCF and Linux Foundation, the team, building the ecosystem, keeping the governance and the technical and the content piece separate. I think they did a good job of showing the future state that we'd like to get to, which is true multicloud, workload portability, those things still out of reach in my opinion, but they did a great job of keeping the tight core. And to me, when I hear words like defacto standard I think of major inflection points where industries have moved big time. You think of internetworking, you think of the web, you think of these moments where that small little tweak created massive new brands and created a disruptor enabler that just created, changed the game. We saw Cisco coming out of that movement of IP with routers you're seeing 3Com come out of that world. I think that this change, this new little nuance called Kubernetes is going to be absolutely a defacto standard. I think it's definitely an inflection point and you're going to see startups come up with new ideas really fast in a new way, in a new modern global architecture, new startups, and I think people are going to be blown away. I think you're going to see fast rising growth companies. I think it's going to be an investment opportunity whether it's token economics or a venture backer private equity play. You're going to see people come out of the wood work, real smart entrepreneur. I think this is what people have been waiting for in the industry so I mean, I'm just super excited. And so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for everything you do for the community. I think you truly extract the signal from the noise. I'm really excited to see you keep coming to the show, so it's really awesome. >> I appreciate your support, and again we're co-developing content in the open. Lauren great to host with you this week. >> Thank you, it's been awesome. >> And you got a great new venture, high five there. High five to the founder of KubeCon. This is theCUBE, not to be confused with KubeCon. And we're theCUBE, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. It's a wrap of day two global coverage here exclusively for KubeCon 2018, CNCF and the Linux Foundation. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for coverage of KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CloudNative Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We're here with Kelsey Hightower, co-chair of the program as well as a staff engineer, developer, advocate, at Google Cloud Platform, a celebrity in the industry, dynamic, always great to have you on, welcome back. >> Awesome, good to be back. >> How are you feeling, tired? You've got the energy, day two? >> I'm good, I finished my keynote yesterday. My duties are done, so I get to enjoy the conference like most attendees. >> Great. Keynote was phenomenal, got good props. Great content format, very tight, moving things along. A little bit of a jab at some of the cloud providers. Someone said, "Oh, Kelsey took a jab at the cloud guys." What was that about, I mean, there was some good comments on Twitter, but, keeping it real. >> Honestly, so I work at a cloud provider, so I'm part of the cloud guys, right? So I'm at Google Cloud, and what I like to do is, and I was using Amazon's S3 in my presentation, and I was showing people basically like the dream of, in this case, serverless, here's how this stuff actually works together right now. We don't really need anything else from the cloud providers. Here's what you can do right now, so, I like to take a community perspective, When I'm on the stage, so I'm not here only to represent Google and sell for Google. I'm here to say, "Hey, here's what's possible," and my job is to kind of up-level the thinking. So that was kind of the goal of that particular presentation is like, here's all this stuff, let's not lock it all down to one particular provider, 'cause this is what we're here for, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, is about taking all of that stuff and standardizing it and making it accessible. >> And then obviously, people are talking about the outcome, that that's preferred right now in the future, which is a multi-cloud workload portability. Kubernetes is playing a very key role in obviously the dev ops, people who have been doing it for many many years, have eaten glass, spit nails, custom stuff, have put, reaped the benefits, but now they want to make it easy. They don't want to repeat that, so with Kubernetes nice formation, a lot of people saying here on theCUBE and in the hallways that a de facto standard, the word actually said multiple times here. Interesting. >> Yeah, so you got Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard for computes, but not events, not data, not the way you want to compute those events or data, so the job isn't complete. So I think Kubernetes will solve a large portion of compute needs, thumbs up, we're good to go. Linux has done this for the virtualization layer, Kubernetes is doing it for the containerization, but we don't quite have that on the serverless side. So it's important for us all to think about where the industry is going and so it's like, hey, where the industry is moving to, where we are now, but it's also important for us to get ahead of it, and also be a part of defining what the next de facto standard should be. >> And you mentioned community, which is important, because I want to just bring this up, there's a lot of startups in the membership of CNCF, and when you have that first piece done, you mentioned the other work to be done, that's an opportunity to differentiate. This is the commercialization opportunity to strike that balance. Your reaction to that, how do you see that playing out? Because it is an opportunity to create some value. >> Honestly I'm wearing a serverless.com T-shirt right now, right, that's the startup in the space. They're trying to make serverless easy to use for everyone, regardless of the platform. I think no matter what side of the field you stand on, we need these groups to be successful. They're independent companies, they're going for ambition, they're trying to fill the gaps in what we're all doing, so if they're successful, they just make a bigger market for everyone else, so this is why not only do we try to celebrate them, we try to give them this feedback, like, "Hey, here's what we're doing, "here's what the opportunities are," so I think we need them to be successful. If they all die out every time they start something, then we may not have people trying anymore. >> And I think there's actually a serverless seg in the CNCF, right? And I think that they're doing a lot of great work to kind of start to figure out what's going on. I mean, are you aware what those guys are up to? >> Exactly, so the keynote yesterday was largely about some of the work they're doing. So you mentioned the serverless seg, and CNCF. So some of the work that they're doing is called cloud events. But they wanted to standardize the way we take these events from the various providers, we're not going to make them all work the same way, but what we can do is capture those events in a standard way, and then help define a way to transport those between different providers if you will, and then how those responses come back. So at least we can start to standardize at least that part of the layer, and if Google offers you value, or Amazon offers you value, you own the data, and that data generates events, you can actually move it wherever you want, so that's the other piece, and I'm glad that they're getting in front of it. >> Well I think goal is, obviously, if I'm using AWS, and then I want to use Asher, and then I want to go to Google Cloud, or I want my development teams are using different components, and features, in all of them, right? You want to be able to have that portability across the cloud-- >> And we say together, so the key part of that demo was, if you're using one cloud provider for a certain service, in this case, I was using Google Translate to translate some data, but maybe your data lives in Amazon, the whole point was that, be notified that your data's in Amazon, so that it can be fired off an event into Google, function runs a translation, and writes the data back to Amazon. There are customers that actually do this today, right? There are different pieces of stacks that they want to be able to access, our goal is to make sure they can actually do that in a standard way, and then, show them how to do it. >> A lot of big buzz too also going on around Kubeflow, that Google co-chaired, or co-founded, and now part of the CNCF, Istio service meshes, again, this points to the dots that are connecting, which is okay, I got Kubernetes, we got containers, now Istio, what's your vision on that, how did that play out? An opportunity certainly to abstract the weights of complexity, what's your thoughts on Istio? >> So I think there's going to be certain things, things like Istio, there are parts of Istio that are very low level, that if done right, you may never see them. That's a good thing, so Istio comes in, and says, "Look, it's one thing to connect applications together, "which Kubernetes can help you do "with this built-in service discovery, "how does one app find the other app," but then it's another thing to lock down security and implement policy, this app can talk to this app under these conditions. Istio comes in, brings that to the playing field. Great, that's a great addition. Most people will probably wrap that in some higher-level platform, and you may never see it! Great! Then you mention Kubeflow, now this is a workflow, or at least an opinionated workflow, for doing machine-learning, or some analytics work. There's too many pieces! So if we start naming every single piece that you have to do, or we can say, "Look, we know there's a way that works, "we'll give it a name, we'll call it Kubeflow," and then what's going to happen there is the community's going to rally around actually more workflow, we have lots of great technology wrapped underneath all of that, but how should people use it? And I think that's what I'm actually happy to see now that we're in like year four or five of this thing, as people are actually talking about how to people leverage all of these things that fall below? >> As the IQ starts to increase with cloud-native, you're seeing enterprises, and there's levels of adoption, the early adopters, you know, the shiny new toy, are pushing the envelope, fast followers coming in, then you got the mainstream coming in, so mainstream, there's a lot of usage and consumption of containers, very comfortable with that, now they're bumping into Kubernetes, "Oh wow, this is great," different positions of the adoption. What's your message to each one, mainstream, fast followers, early adoptives, the early adoptives keep pushing, keep bringing that community together, form the community, fast forward. What's the position, what's the Kelsey Hightower view of each one of those points of the evolution? >> So I think we need a new model. So I think that model is kind of out now. Because if you look at the vendor relationships now, so the enterprise typically buys off the shelf when it's mature and ready to go. But at this point now, a lot of the library is all in the programming languages, if you see a language or library that you need, if it's on GitHub, you look around, it's like, "We're going to use this open-source library, "'cause we got to ship," right? So, they started doing early adoption maybe at the library level. Now you're starting to see it at the service level. So if I go to my partner or my vendor, and they say, "Hey, the new version of our software requires Kubernetes." Now, that's a little bit early for some of these enterprises to adopt, but now you're having the vendor relationship saying, "We will help you with Kubernetes." And also, a lot of these enterprises, it's early? Guess what, they have contributors to these projects. They helped design them. I remember back in the day, when I was in financial services, JPMC came out with their own messaging standard, so banks could communicate with each other. They gave that to Red Hat, and Red Hat turns it into a product, and now there's a new messaging standard. That kicked off ten years ago, and now we're starting to see these same enterprises contribute to Kubernetes. So I think now, there's a new model where, if it's early, enterprises are becoming the contributors, donating to the foundations, becoming members of things like CNCF, and on the flip side, they may still use their product, but they want a say in their future. >> So you can jump in at any level as a company, you don't need to wait for the mainstream, you can have a contributor, and in the front wave, to help shepherd through. >> Yeah, you need more say, I think when people bought typical enterprise software, if there wasn't a feature in there, you waited for the vendor to do it, the vendor comes up with their feature, and tells you it's going to cost another 200 million dollars for this add-on, and you have no say into the progress of it, or the speed of it. And then we moved to a world where there was APIs. Look, here's APIs, you can kind of build your own thing on top, now, the vendor's like, "You know what? "I'm going to help actually build the product that I rely on," so if vendor A is not my best partner right now, I could pick a different vendor and say, "Hey, I want a relationship, around this open-source "ecosystem, you have some features I like right now, "but I may want to able to modify them later." I think that's where we are right now. >> Well I think also the emergence of open-source offices, and things like that, and, you know, enterprises that are more monolithic, have really helped to move things forward with their users and their developers. I'm seeing a lot of folks here that are actually coming from larger companies inside of Europe, and they're actually trying to learn Kubernetes now, and they are here to bring that back into their companies, that they want to know about what's going on, right? >> That's a good observation-- >> It's great. >> That open-source office is replacing the I'm the vendor management person. >> Well you need legal-- >> Exactly. >> And you need all of those folks to just get the checkmarks, and get the approval, so that folks can actually take code in, and if it's under the right license, which is super important, or put code back out. >> And it seemed to be some of the same people that were managing the IBM relationship. The people that were managing the big vendor relationship, right? This thing's going to cost us all this cash, we got to make sure that we're getting the right, we're complying with the licensing model, that we're not using more than we paid for, in case we get an audit, the same group has some of the similar skills needed to shepherd their way through the open-source landscape, and then, in many cases, hiring in some of those core developers, to sit right in the organization, to give back, and to kind of have that first-tier support. >> That's a really good point, Lauren. I think this is why I think CNCF has been so successful is, they've kind of established the guardrails, and kind of the cultural notion of commercializing, while not foregoing the principles of open-source, so the operationalizing of open-source is really huge-- >> I'm kind of laughing over here, because, I started the open-source organization at Cisco, and Cisco was not, was new to open-source, and we had to put open data into the Linux Foundation, and I just remember the months of calls I was on, and the lawyers that I got to know, and-- >> You got scar tissue to prove it, too. >> I do, and I think when we did CNCF, I was talking to Craig years ago when we kind of kicked that off, it was really something that we wanted to do differently, we wanted to fast track it, we had the exact license that we wanted, we had the players that we wanted, and we really wanted to have this be something community-based, which I think, Kelsey, you've said it right there. It's really the communities that are coming together that you're seeing here. What else are you seeing here? What are the interesting projects that you see, that are kind of popping up, we have some, but are there others that you see? >> Well, so now, these same enterprises, now they have the talent, or at least not letting the talent leave, the talent now is like, "Well, we have an idea, and it's not core "to our business, let's open-source it." So, Intuit just inquired this workflow, small little start-up project, Argo, they're Intuit now, and maybe they had a need internally, suck in the right people, let the project continue, throw that Intuit logo there, and then sometimes you just see tools that are just being built internally, also be product ties from this open-source perspective, and it's a good way for these companies to stay engaged, and also to say, "Hey, if we're having this problem, "so are other people," so this is new, right? This open-source usually comes from the vendors, maybe a small group of developers, but now you're starting to see the companies say, "You know what, let's open-source our tool as well," and it's really interesting, because also they're pretty mature. They've been banked, they've been used, they're real, someone depends on them, and they're out. Interesting to see where that goes. >> Well yeah, Derek Hondell, from VMware, former Linux early guy, brought the same question. He says, "Don't confuse project with product." And to your point about being involved in the project, you can still productize, and then still have that dual relationship in a positive way, that's really a key point. >> Exactly, we're all learning how to share, and we're learning what to share. >> Okay, well let's do some self awareness here, well, for you, program's great, give you some props on that, you did a great job, you guys are the team, lot of high marks, question marks that are here that we've heard is security. Obviously, love Kubernetes, everyone's high-fiving each other, got to get back to work to reality, security is a conversation. Your thoughts on how that's evolving, obviously, this is front and center conversation, with all this service meshes and all these new services coming up, security is now being fought in the front end of this. What's your view? >> So I think the problem with security from certain people is that they believe that a product will come out that they can buy, to do security. Every time some new platform, oh, virtualization security. Java security. Any buzzword, then someone tries to attach security. >> It's a bolt-on. >> It's, yeah. So, I mean, most people think it's a practice. The last stuff that I seen on security space still applies to the new stack, it's not that the practice changed. Some of the threat models are the same, maybe some new threat models come up, or new threat models are aggravated because of the way people are using these platforms. But I think a lot of companies have never understood that. It's a practice, it will never be solved, there's nothing you can buy or subscribe to-- >> Not a silver bullet. >> Like antivirus, right? I'm only going to buy antivirus, as long as I run it, I should never get a virus. It's like, "No!" That's not how that works. The antivirus will be able to find things it knows about. And then you have to have good behavior to prevent having a problem in the first place. And I think security should be the same way, so I think what people need to do now, is they're being forced back into the practice of security. >> John: Security everywhere, basically. >> It's just a thing you have to do no matter what, and I think what people have to start doing with this conversation is saying, "If I adopt Kubernetes, does my threat model change?" "Does the container change the way I've locked down the VM?" In some cases, no, in some cases, yes. So I think when we start to have these conversations, everyone needs to understand the question you should ask of everyone, "What threat model should I be worried about, "and if it's something that I don't understand or know," that's when you might want to go look for a vendor, or go get some more training to figure out how you can solve it. >> And I think, Tyler Jewell was on from Ballerina, and he was talking about that yesterday, in terms of how they actually won't, they assume that the code is not secure. That is the first thing that they do when they're looking at Ballerina in their programming language, and how they actually accept code into it, is just they assume it's not secure. >> Oh exactly, like at Google we had a thing, we called it BeyondCorp. And there's other aspects to that, if you assume that it's going to be bad if someone was inside of your network, then pretend that someone is already inside your network and act accordingly. >> Yep, exactly, it's almost the reverse of the whitelisting. Alright, so let me ask you a question, you're in a unique position, glad to have you here on theCUBE, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights and perspective, but you also are the co-chair of this progress, so you get to see the landscape, you see the 20 mile stare, you have to have that long view, you also work at Google, which gives a perspective of things like BeyondCorp, and all of the large-scale work at Google, a lot of people want to, they're buying into the cloud-native, no doubt about it, there's still some educational work on the peoples' side, and process, and operationalizing it, with open-source, et cetera, but they want to know where the headroom is, they want to know, as you said, where's the directionally correct vector of the industry. So I got to ask you, in your perspective, where's all this going? For the folks watching who just want to have a navigation, paint the picture, what's coming directionally, shoot the arrow forward, as service meshes, as you start having this service layer, highly valuable, creative freedom to do things, what's the Kelsey vision on-- >> So I think this world of computing, after the mainframe, the mainframe, you want to process census data, you walk up, give it, it spits it back out. To me, that is beautiful. That's like almost the ultimate developer workflow. In, out. Then everyone's like, "I want my own computer, "and I want my own programming language, "and I want to write it in my basement, "without the proper power, or cords, or everything, "and we're all going to learn how "to do computing from scratch." And we all learnt, and we have what we call a legacy. All the mistakes I've made, but I maintain, and that's what we have! But the ultimate goal of computing is like the calculator, I want to be able to have a very simple interface, and the computer should give me an answer back. So where all this is going, Istio, service mesh, Kubernetes, cloud-native, all these patterns. Here's my app, run it for me. Don't ask me about auto scale groups, and all, run it for me. Give me a security certificate by default. Let's encrypt. Makes it super easy for anyone to get a tailored certificate rotated to all the right things. So we're slowly getting to a world where you can ask the question, "Here's my app, run it for me," and they say, "Here's the URL, "and when you hit this URL, we're going to do "everything that we've learned in the past "to make it secure, scalable, work for you." So that may be called open-shift, in its current implementation with Red Hat, Amazon may call it Lambda, Google Cloud may call it GKE plus some services, and we're never going to stop until the experience becomes, "Here's my app, run it for me." >> A resource pool, just programmability. And it's good, I think the enterprises are used to lifting and shifting, I mean, we've been through the evolution of IT, as we build the legacy, okay, consolidation, server consolidation, oh, hello VMs, now you have lift and shift. This is not a lift and shift kind of concept, cloud-native. It is a-- >> It doesn't have to be a lift and shift. So some people are trying to make it a lift and shift thing, where they say, "Look, you can bolt-on some of the stuff "that you're seeing in the new," and some consultants are like, "Hey, we'll sit their and roll up the sleeves, "and give you what we can," and I think that's an independent thing from where we're pushing towards. If you're ready, there's going to be a world, where you give us your code, and we run it, and it's scary for a lot of people, because they're going to be like, "Well, what do I do?" "What knobs do I twist in that world?" So I think that's just, that's where it's going. >> Well, in a world of millions of services coming out on the line, it's in operating, automation's got to be key, these are principles that have to go get bought into. I mean, you got to understand, administration is the exception, not the rule. This is the new world. It's kind of the Google world, and large-scale world, so it could be scary for some. I mean, you just bump into people all the time, "Hey Kelsey, what do I do?" And what do you say to them? You say, "Hey, what do I do?" What's the playbook? >> Often, so, it's early enough. I wasn't born in the mainframe time. So I'm born in this time. And right now when you look at this, it's like, well, this is your actual opportunity to contribute to what it should do. So if you want to sit on the sidelines, 'cause we're in that period now, where that isn't the case. And everyone right now is trying to figure out how to make it the case, so they're going to come up with their ways of doing things, and their standards, and then maybe in about ten years, you'll be asked to just use what we've all produced. Or, since you're actually around early enough, you can participate. That's what I tell people, so if you don't want to participate, then you get the checkpoints along the way. Here's what we offer, here's what they offer, you pick one, and then you stay on this digital transformation to the end of time. Or, you jump in, and realize that you're going to have a little bit more control over the way you operate in this landscape. >> Well, jumping in the deep end of the pool has always been the philosophy, get in and learn, and you'll survive, with a lot of community support, Kelsey, thanks for coming on, final question for you, surprise is, you're no longer going to be the co-chair, you've co-chaired up to this point, you've done a great job, what surprised you about KubeCon, the growth, the people? What are some of the things that have jumped out at you, either good, surprise, what you did expect, not expect, share some commentary on this movement, KubeCon and CloudNative. >> Definitely surprised that it's probably this big this fast, right? I thought people, definitely when I saw the technology earlier on, I was like, "This is definitely a winner," "regardless of who agrees." So, I knew that early on. But to be this big, this fast, and all the cloud providers agreeing to use it and sell it, that is a surprise, I figured one or two would do it. But to have all of them, if you go to their website, and you read the words Kubernetes' strong competitors, well alright, we all agree that Kubernetes is okay. That to me is a surprise that they're here, they have booths, they're celebrating it, they're all innovating on it, and honestly, this is one of those situations that, no matter how fast they move, everyone ends up winning on this particular deal, just the way Kubernetes was set up, and the foundation as a whole, that to me is surprising that it's still true, four years later. >> Yeah, I mean rising tide floats all boats, when you have an enabling, disruptive technology like Kubernetes, that enables people to be successful, there's enough cake to be eating for everybody. >> Awesome. >> Kelsey Hightower, big time influencer here, inside theCUBE cloud, computing influencer, also works at Google as a developer advocate, also co-chair of KubeCon 2018, I wish you luck in the next chapter, stepping down from the co-chair role-- >> Stepping down from the co-chair, but always in the community. >> Always in the community. Great voice, great guy to have on theCUBE, check him out online, his great Twitter feed, check him out on Twitter, Kelsey Hightower, here on theCUBE, I'm joined here by Lauren Cooney, be right back with more coverage here at KubeCon 2018, stay with us, we'll be right back. (bright electronic music)

>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF Cloud Native Compute Foundation, which is part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got two great guests here, we've got Liz Rice, the co-chair of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, kind of a dual naming because it's Kubernetes and it's Cloud Native and also technology evangelist at Aqua Security. She's co-chairing with Kelsey Hightower who will be on later today, and CUBE alumni as well, and Janet Kuo who is a software engineer at Google. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for inviting us. >> Super excited, we have a lot of energy even though we've got interviews all day and it's kind of, we're holding the line here. It's almost a celebration but also not a celebration because there's more work to do with Kubernetes. Just the growth of the CNCF continues to hit some interesting good performance KPIs on metrics. Growth's up on the membership, satisfaction is high, Kubernetes is being called a de facto standard. So by all kind of general qualitative metrics and quantitative, it's doing well. >> Lauren: It's doing great. >> But it's just the beginning. >> Yeah, yeah. I talked yesterday a little bit in, in the keynote, about project updates, about how Kubernetes has graduated. That's a real signal of maturity. It's a signal to the end-user companies out there that you know, the risk, nothing is ever risk-free, but you know, Kubernetes is here to stay. It's stable, it's got stable governance model, you know, it's not going away. >> John: It's working. >> It's going to continue to evolve and improve. But it's really working, and we've got end users, you know, not only happy and using it, they're prepared to come to this conference and share their stories, share their learnings, it's brilliant. >> Yeah, and Janet also, you know, you talk about China, we have announcement that, I don't know if it's formally announced, but Shanghai, is it out there now? >> Lauren: It is. >> Okay, so Shanghai in, I think November 14th, let me get the dates here, 14th and 15th in Shanghai, China. >> Janet: Yeah. >> Where it's going to be presented in either English or in Chinese, so it's going to be fully translated. Give us the update. >> Yeah, it will be fully translated, and we'll have a CFP coming soon, and people will be submitting their talks in English but they can choose to present either in English or Chinese. >> Can you help us get a CUBE host that can translate theCUBE for us? We need some, if you're out there watching, we need some hosts in China. But in all seriousness, this is a global framework, and this is again the theme of Cloud Native, you know. Being my age, I've seen the lift and shift IT world go from awesome greatness to consolidation to VMwares. I've seen the waves. But this is a different phenomenon with Cloud Native. Take a minute to share your perspectives on the global phenomenon of Cloud Native. It's a global platform, it's not just IT, it's a global platform, the cloud, and what that brings to the table for end users. >> I think for end users, if we're talking about consumers, it actually is, well what it's doing is allowing businesses to develop applications more quickly, to respond to their market needs more quickly. And end users are seeing that in more responsive applications, more responsive services, improved delivery of tech. >> And the businesses, too, have engineers on the front lines now. >> Absolutely, and there's a lot of work going on here, I think, to basically, we were talking earlier about making technology boring, you know, this Kubernetes level is really an abstraction that most application developers don't really need to know about. And making their experience easier, they can just write their code and it runs. >> So if it's invisible to the application developer, that's the success. >> That's a really helpful thing. They shouldn't have to worry about where their code is running. >> John: That's DevOps. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I think the container in Kubernetes technology or this Cloud Native technology that brings developer the ability to, you know, move fast and give them the agility to react to the business needs very quickly. And also users benefit from that and operators also, you know, can manage their applications much more easily. >> Yeah, when you have that abstraction layer, when you have that infrastructure as code, or even this new abstraction layer which is not just infrastructure, it's services, micro-services, growth has been phenomenal. You're bringing the application developer into an efficiency productivity mode where they're dictating the business model through software of the companies. So it's not just, "Hey build me something "and let's go sell it." They're on the front lines, writing the business logic of businesses and their customers. So you're seeing it's super important for them to have that ability to either double down or abandon quickly. This is what agile is. Now it's going from software to business. This, to me, I think is the highlight for me on this show. You see the dots connecting where the developers are truly in charge of actually being a business impact because they now have more capability. As you guys put this together and do the co-chair, do you and Kelsey, what do you guys do in the room, the secret room, you like, "Well let's do this on the content." I mean, 'cause there's so much to do. Take us through the process. >> So, a little bit of insight into how that whole process works. So we had well over 1,000 submissions, which, you know, there's no, I think there's like 150 slots, something like that. So that's a pretty small percentage that we can actually accept. We had an amazing program committee, I think there were around 60 people who reviewed, every individual reviewer looked at a subset. We didn't ask them to look at all thousand, that would be crazy. They scored them, that gave us a kind of first pass, like a sort of an ability to say, "Well, anything that was below average, "we can only take the top 15%, "so anything that's below average "is not going to make the cut." And then we could start looking at trying to balance, say, for example, there's been a lot of talk about were there too many Istio talks? Well, there were a lot of Istio talks because there were a lot of Istio submissions. And that says to us that the community wants to talk about Istio. >> And then number of stars, that's the number one project on the new list. I mean, Kubeflow and Istio are super hot. >> Yeah, yeah, Kubeflow's another great example, there are lots of submissions around it. We can't take them all but we can use the ratings and the advice from the program committee to try and assemble, you know, the best talks to try and bring different voices in, you know, we want to have subject matter experts and new voices. We want to have the big name companies and start-ups, we wanted to try and get a mix, you know. A diversity of opinion, really. >> And you're a membership organization so you have to balance the membership needs with the content program so, challenging with given the growth. I mean, I can only imagine. >> Yeah, so as program co-chairs, we actually have a really free hand over the content, so it's one of the really, I think, nice things about this conference. You know, sponsors do get to stand on stage and deliver their message, but they don't get to influence the actual program. The program is put together for the community, and by doing things like looking at the number of submissions, using those signals that the community want to talk about, I hope we can carry on giving the attendees that format. >> I would just say from an outsider perspective, I think that's something you want to preserve because if you look at the success of the CNCF, one thing I'm impressed by is they've really allowed a commercial environment to be fostered and enabled. But they didn't compromise the technical. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And the content to me, content and technical tracks are super important because content, they all work together, right? So as long as there's no meddling, stay in your swim lane, whatever, whatever it is. Content is really important. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Because that's the learning. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay, so what's on the cut list that you wish you could have put back on stage? Or is that too risque? You'll come back to that. >> Yeah. >> China, talk about China. Because obviously, we were super impressed last year when we went to go visit Alibaba just to the order of magnitude to the cultural mindset for their thinking around Cloud Native. And what I was most impressed with was Dr. Wong was talking about artistry. They just don't look at it as just technology, although they are nerdy and geeky like us in Silicon Valley. But they really were thinking about the artistry 'cause the app side of it has kind of a, not just design element to the user perspective. And they're very mobile-centric in China, so they're like, they were like, "This is what we want to do." So they were very advanced in my mind on this. Does that change the program in China vis a vis Seattle and here, is there any stark differences between Shanghai and Copenhagen and Seattle in terms of the program? Is there a certain focus? What's the insight into China? >> I think it's a little early to say 'cause we haven't yet opened the CFP. It'll be opening soon but I'm fully expecting that there will be, you know, some differences. I think the, you know, we're hoping to have speakers, a lot more speakers from China, from Asia, because it's local to them. So, like here, we tried to have a European flavor. You'll see a lot of innovators from Europe, like Spotify and the Financial Times, Monzo Bank. You know, they've all been able to share their stories with us. And I think we're hoping to get the same kind of thing in China, hear local stories as well. >> I mean that's a good call. I think conferences that do the rinse and repeat from North America and just slap it down in different regions aren't as effective as making it localized, in a way. >> Yeah. >> That's super important. >> I know that a lot of China companies, they are pretty invested pretty heavily into Kubernetes and Cloud Native technology and they are very innovative. So I actually joined a project in 2015 and I've been collaborating with a lot of Chinese contributors from China remotely on GitHub. For example, the contributors from Huawei and they've been invested a lot in this. >> And they have some contributors in the core. >> Yeah, so we are expecting to see submissions from those contributors and companies and users. >> Well, that's super exciting. We look forward to being there, and it should be excellent. We always have a fun time. The question that I want to ask you guys now, just to switch gears is, for the people watching who couldn't make it or might watch it on YouTube on Demand who didn't make the trip. What surprised you here? What's new, I'm asking, you have a view as the co-chair, you've seen it. But was there anything that surprised you, or did it go right? Nothing goes perfect. I mean, it's like my wedding, everything happens, didn't happen the way you planned it. There's always a surprise. Any wild cards, any x-factors, anything that stands out to you guys? >> So what I see from, so I attend, I think around five KubeCons. So from the first one it's only 550 people, only the small community, the contributors from Google and Red Hat and CoreOS and growing from now. We are growing from the inner circle to the outside circle, from the just contributors to also the users of it, like and also the ecosystem. Everyone that's building the technology around Cloud Native, and I see that growth and it's very surprising to me. We have a keynote yesterday from CERN and everyone is talking about their keynote, like they have I think 200 clusters, and that's amazing. And they said because of Kubernetes they can just focus on physics. >> Yeah, and that's a testimonial right there. >> Yeah. >> That was really good stories to hear, and I think maybe one of the things that surprises me, it sort of continues to surprise me is how collaborative, it's something about this kind of organization, this conference, this whole kind of movement, if you like. Where companies are coming in and sharing their learnings, and we've seen that, we've seen that a lot through the keynotes. And I think we see it on the conference floor, we see it in the hallway chat. And I think we see it in the way that the different SIGs and working groups and projects are all, kind of, collaborating on problem solving. And that's really exciting. >> That's why I was saying earlier in the beginning that there's a celebration amongst ourselves and the community. But also a realization that this is just the beginning, it's not a, it's kind of like when you get venture funding if you're a start-up. That's really when it begins, you don't celebrate, but you take a little bit of a pause. Now my personal take only to all of the hundreds of events we do a year is that I that think this community here has fought the hard DevOps battle. If you go back to 2008 timeframe, and '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, those years were, those were hyper scale years. Look at Google, Facebook, all the original DevOps engineers, they were eating glass and spitting nails. It was hard work. And it was really build your own, a lot of engineering, not just software development. So I think this, kind of like, camaraderie amongst the DevOps community saying, "Look, this is a really big "step up function with Kubernetes." Everyone's had some scar tissue. >> Yeah, I think a lot of people have learned from previous, you know, even other open source projects that they've worked on. And you see some of the amazing work that goes into the kind of, like, community governance side. The things that, you know, Paris Pittman does around contributor experience. It's so good to see people who are experts in helping developers engage, helping engineers engage, really getting to play that role. >> There's a lot of common experiences for people who have never met each other because there's people who have seen the hard work pay with scale and leverage and benefits. They see it, this is amazing. We had Sheryl from Google on saying, "When I left Google and I went out into the real world, "I was like, oh my God, "they don't actually use Borg," like, what? "What do they, how do they actually write software?" I mean, so she's a fish out of water and that, it's like, so again I think there's a lot of commonality, and it's a super great opportunity and a great community and you guys have done a great job, CNCF. And we hope to nurture that, the principles, and looking forward to China. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, we appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> Okay we're here at CNCF's KubeCon 2018, I'm John Furrier, more live coverage. Stay with us, day two of two days of CUBE coverage. Go to thecube.net, siliconangle.com for all the coverage. We'll be back, stay with us after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018 brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018 part of the CNCF, I'm John Furrier the co-host of theCUBE with Lauren Cooney co-host this week founder of Spark Labs. Our next guest is Cheryl Hung, Product Engineering Manager, StorageOS, she has a lot of DevOps, she runs the CloudNative or founder of the CloudNative meetup in London. >> Exactly. >> It's great to have you on. >> Thank you, it's great to be on. >> So, you've drank the koolaide on CloudNative, so we're loving the trend, the trend is your friend here. So CloudNative's super hot and you're doing StorageOS as the name of the company, which is a DevOps oriented that your obviously using Kubernetes. First question, how excited are you with the CloudNative trend right now, because people are getting it with Kubernetes, what's your reaction to the momentum? >> So before I joined my current company, I was an Engineer at Google for about five years and I'm probably a CloudNative in the true sense of the word and that I joined Google when I was 21, I don't remember a time before what we think of is containers and orchestrators and I use Borg, which was the internal predecessor to Kubernetes, so when I came out and I started looking into Docker and Kubernetes I thought, this is obvious, this is just how software is built and run, right? >> John: Yeah. >> It was so interesting to realize no, the industry's not there. >> What did you find? What was it like go out and say wait a minute, you do all that? What was it like? >> As I said I'd completely forgotten that this how software was done before, so when I came out, I was like this totally makes sense to me, this is very, very natural to me that you run software packaged in a container and then you orchestrate it across data centers and across machines with something like Kubernetes now. But seeing the whole industry move to this mindset has been really impressive, particularly for the CNCF they've put a lot of effort into spreading this paradigm and getting the adoption. >> John: They've done a good job. Before we dig in I want some DevOps questions I have for you because this is such an exciting topic. Take a minute to explain StorageOS, what the company does and your role there. >> StorageOS has been around for a couple of years, two, three years now and one of the biggest problems with containers is their designed to be stateless, they're designed so that you don't have to worry about running containers in different environments or moving them around, they should always run the same. So, but clearly there is a need for storage, if you're doing something interesting with your application, you have to make a decision about where to actually store the data at the end of the day. So, StorageOS, we do persistent storage for containers and it's an abstraction layer for storage that runs on top of any infrastructure could be on prem, could be one of the cloud providers, could be virtual machines and we provide storage to pods and to the applications and so the containers that are running and we also manage replication and high availability, among other things. My role that is officially Product Manager, I do a ton of different things, because we're a 15 person start-up. So I actually manage DevOps Engineers, I do public speaking, I write and speak about storage and containers and cloud, I write all the technical documentation for the product and very excitingly as of yesterday in fact, we announced our GA product, so now I can finally say we have a real genuine product that's out there and we think it's ready to go out publicly and live. >> That's great. >> Very, very exciting. >> So, you're not busy at all is what you basically are saying. >> I do a million things, but I have a great time. >> That's awesome. So what is with your one data release and the product is actually out the door, what kind of applications are you supporting, for example? What do you see as the kind of use cases of folks that are coming in and using, your solution? >> The biggest one that is not yet a solved problem is the database use case. So transactional database is like MySQL and Postgres and so on. The other use case that I see a lot is with CICD Pipelines, so people running Jenkins to build their software and they need to store the artifacts off the software somewhere and it's quite difficult to do that at the moment. So those I think are our two priorities. >> That's great. >> In DevOps world right now, one of the things that's super exciting is the whole infrastructorous code thing is happening, you mentioned that this is people are getting it. The challenge of staffing up is hard, you guys are wearing a lot of different hats as startups do, but as companies start to grow and do more CloudNative true CloudNative, you got to hire people and people got to learn. What are you finding is a good mechanism for learning? Obviously, you do a meet-up, that's a great face to face group opportunity, what are some of the things that people can do to get involved, how are you guys recruiting, how do you manage the team, is it small teams, whats the workflow look like? If you can share some insight into that, that'd be very helpful. >> Yeah so, I'm the hiring manager for DevOps Engineers and when I started looking for this I thought what would be great is if I could find someone who has some experience with running Kubernetes in production. Clearly that's very difficult because Kubernetes has only been around for really a year or two and widely adopted. Meet-ups are a brilliant way for people to get into this space, find out what the community is talking about and then also to learn and to teach others and I really encourage people to go and do public speaking themselves and become known in the community for it. Aside from that I think DevOps is a very worldly defined term, which is one of the difficulties with finding people. DevOps encompasses everything from people who are traditionally Linux's Admins to people who really do understand the container mindset and the orchestrated mindset. So I think for me, my best channel to find the right people has always been either face to face, people I know or else looking for things like Kubernetes or other orchestrators. >> So let me ask you how the Kubernetes, we've been given some good hat tips and props to the CNCF for doing a good job with Kubernetes, what is it about Kubernetes and the CNCF that's working in your mind? Why is it working so well? Obviously it's successful, its got the kind of defacto standard because a lot of people love it, what are they doing right and what is the work areas that you see are opportunities for people to innovate? >> So the CNCF has a couple of different branches, one thing that I think they did really well at the beginning was they decided that the technical direction and the vision of the projects would be set amongst the community rather than being controlled by one of Google or Microsoft or Red Hat or one of the big, big names in this. So separating the governing board from the technical oversight committee is something I think they did really right at the beginning and also encouraging the meet-ups and the face to face and the community growth. So in terms of innovation in this sphere, there's a lot of unsolved problems, we have a absolute massive tools out there and we don't have best practices and a lot of experience in how it's done. I work for StorageOS, because storage is one of those unsolved problems for containers, security is another one, Servilous is really coming and there's a lot of opportunity now to get involved in those conversations and steer towards where you want your own community and your own people to be. >> That, that is great and your doing, I've been in Open-source for quite awhile and the strategy is spot on. So, what do you see in terms of inside of the CNCF, projects that you're excited about or things that you want to get engaged with further or just in general, what's really cool? >> On a personal, technical level I think Servilous is very, very exciting, I still think of myself as an Engineer in many ways so I think the developer experience with that is great. One thing that I've seen new a KubeCon is there's a lot of focus now on getting the new first-time contributors, the mentors expanding the community looking beyond just can you submit code to how do we onboard and bring in more people so we have a more diverse set of opinions and feelings that can come in. >> Training, setting people up, open arms. >> Yeah, yeah, these things don't happen by themselves, they do take effort and I'm really glad that Open-source is really, really flown itself full heartedly into those kind of efforts. >> Cheryl great to have you on theCUBE, appreciate your commentary, my final question for you is for the folks watching who couldn't come today, this week, what's going on here? Share the vibe, share the story, what's this top story, what's the most important thing happening this week that people should know about? >> If I see one trend in people that I talk to, it's Kubernetes is getting is getting boring (laughing). What's the next big thing, service measures seem to be a hot topic, a lot of people are talking about them. But it's quite, I think it's great actually that Kubernetes is now becoming boring, people are standardizing on one thing so we're not duplicating a bunch of effort and there's a lot of buzz in the hallway about okay, we're fully bought into, bought into Kubernetes now we know this is success the CNCF has graduated Kubernetes. So now what are the difficult problems? Now it's about communicating between on the the networking side between federating between clusters across different regions. Those are all things that are not yet solved problems and that makes them quite an interesting challenge. >> You need boring to get to the exciting stuff, because in this case is good. >> Boring really is good. >> You're rallying around something solid to go attack other opportunities. >> I think it's just a trend of we have innovation at the very cutting edge beginning, people rally around and they become standers then they become commodities and people no longer find those exciting, but that allows us to work on even more exciting new things. >> Cheryl great stuff, congratulations on your meet-up and your success and your start-up shipping the products. This is theCUBE bringing you all the action here in Copenhagen, I'm John Furrier and Lauren Cooney here Cube coverage continues, stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier cohost of the Cube, here with my cohost this week Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. Got two great guests in the industry here, Lew Tucker, the CTO of Cloud Computing for Cisco Systems and Aparna Sinha who's the group project manager for Google Cloud, thanks for coming on, great to see you guys. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> So obviously the two big players, you've got networking, you've got moving up the stack and Google Cloud with all the goodness you have hundreds of people here at this show. Cloud native big, you're cloud native, >> Aparna: Yeah. >> You guys are running the networks a lot of stuff's happening, but the big story's the Kubernetes de facto standard position that's been echoed by many people here, Kubernetes tightly controlled core with a lot of innovation going on around Kubernetes. >> Aparna: Yes. >> When I hear words like de facto standards, it reminds me of the old networking days when the OSI model and the TCPIP was forming. Massive shifts at that point. >> Lew: Yeah, yeah. >> Almost a seminal moment now. >> Yeah but in fact I think in open source it's a different notion than in the old days of standards. Here we've got multiple communities, multiple companies that are working together to create a common platform and that's what I think the success of open source is about. So actually, Kubernetes coming into CNCF has really makes that possible and we just graduated it so we should have a celebration around Kubernetes now has graduated in terms of a CNCF project. >> Yeah and you know one think I would say about de facto standard, I don't take that for granted. Kubernetes is built as a platform that runs anywhere across on premises, data centers, public clouds, runs anywhere but, you know that it will be or is a de facto standard is something that we don't take for granted. We make sure in the community that we're working on increase support for, for example different types of storage with a storage interface standard, different types of networking, with a CNI different types of run times, so establishing those interfaces and establishing those standards is key to making it the platform. But that's certainly the potential of Kubernetes is to be-- >> Yeah I mean it's not the end game, it's the beginning. >> Aparna: It is. >> And the nurturing and making sure that ecosystem with thrive is important. And that's why I want to get your thoughts, 'cause you've got Google and Cisco here so lets talk about first the relationship, you guys are working together. >> Lew: Absolutely, yeah. >> Talk about the relationship between Google and Cisco. >> Sure, I think it came about because we're both recognizing that enterprises for example are incorporating cloud computing as a part of their overall IT strategy. And so they needed to find a way, how can they actually make that happen without companies that are working in both of those areas getting together. So it's very natural I think for the two of us to sort of come together because this way we can take our enterprise customers and using Kubernetes as sort of the foundational platform make it so that they can run applications wherever they want, they can run it in their private data center they can run it in Google Cloud, and we can make this now, to provide a lot of the networking so that you can extend private networks into Google Cloud and vice versa, so I think it's a marriage made in heaven in that way. >> Aparna you're reaction to the partnership. >> Yeah, you know, Google is a very developer friendly, developer focused company, always has been, you know the majority of Google is actually developers so it's a company for developers by developers and you know with Google Cloud actually the irony is we're also a networking company and so there's a nice affinity working with Cisco. Our DNA is very much open source, there's multiple projects that have come out of Google that have been very successful open source projects. I mean Tenser Flow, Kubernetes I think is unique in that we've really created and participated and built a community around it and so with this partnership, we're really excited to have Cisco also be part of the community, certainly with Kubernetes but also the Istio Project. And a lot of the projects in cloud native have come from Google's experience running services at global scale. Kubernetes certainly came that way from the Borg heritage and then Istio also from, from what we call one platform, internally to manage service. >> That's a great point, you brought up scale and it's interesting, it's almost like you have two large scale companies here, you have Cisco with massive scale footprint of enterprises from day one, routers you need to move packets around the internet. You guys have built scale for Google with millions of services out there, millions of users, I mean it's unprecedented. So now as you come into the enterprise, the Cisco relationship is an opportunity to blend the best of Google with the footprint at Cisco, how is that going to work, how's that working and what's the vision? I mean obviously it's a nice match, you've got a great footprint in the enterprise, you've got massive scale with the cloud, bringing that in, moving it out, hybrid cloud obviously, is that the? >> Yeah well we often notice for example as I sort of said, the foundational piece is actually running Kubernetes everywhere and so we just recently announced a Cisco container platform which is based on Kubernetes, that means that enterprises now can develop applications in Google Cloud and then run them in their enterprises or vice verse and then on top of that and we're adding in the networking capabilities, through things such as CSR and things like that to allow us to connect both the enterprise and their public cloud running Kubernetes and then Istio as we're mentioning is this thing on top and I'm, as you know, a big fan of where that really is going to take us because I think one of the things that enterprises want to be able to do is that they want to be able to consume services out of Google Cloud, whether it be in kind of terms of the data services or increasingly AI, intelligence service, Tenser Flow, be able to use as a part of their enterprise applications and so I have within my team for example contributed both in terms of what we're doing in terms of Istio, Kubernetes, I've got people on my team who are bringing for example IPB6 into Kubernetes, that's important because, guess what, service providers also want to move into a container world. And then also Cube Flow and so all of these things are starting to come together so that you can start building applications as an assembly of these services and many other services that I will see coming from the public cloud and Google in particular. >> Aparna, I want to ask you, because this is important to distinguish this Istio trend because we asked a lot of people at the Cube here and in our reporting, okay what's next after Kubernetes? If you have a de facto standard, you have stuff coming around it, an eco system, everyone talks about service mesh and Istio project. >> Aparna: Yeah. >> Now the best thing about infrastructure as code which is dev ops in the cloud is you can make things programmable and automate, so if you look at what Istio's doing, it feels like an application benefit but also an automated networking concept with services. >> Aparna: Sure. >> So you got kind of a new dynamic going on where a lot of dynamic things are happening a lot of services are being provisioned, maybe for the first time. >> Aparna: Yeah, yeah. >> So how do you instrument it? This is going to be a future area of innovation. >> So again going back to that standard, right? That platform that runs everywhere, why is it a standard, why is it becoming a standard and I hear this from our customers, our users, it's because they don't have to train multiple times for multiple different environments, they can really scale their workforce, they can hire people that they trained up in Kubernetes and they can scale that workforce so it applies regardless of where they go and it gives them that mobility and if you think about the eco system around Kubernetes right so Kubernetes is one project, a major big project but then the eco system around Kubernetes has really exploded in the last year it has gone from 4000 projects to 15000 projects and I was looking through those projects and seeing you know, which are the ones that have the most stars and there's actually three projects that stood out as having more than 3000 stars but being new, like in the last year and Istio was at the top of that list and obviously it's very popular in terms of the number of stars but it's only one year old and I don't know how much people know that. >> And I think it's interesting, 'cause I'm going to throw kind of a curve ball here at you and say, you know I'm hearing that the service mesh is actually, people are using it. >> Aparna: Yes. >> But it's actually hasn't been deployed into production, is that the case? >> Aparna: It's starting to be. >> Okay. >> So on GKE, Google Kubernetes Engine we've got customers that are deploying Istio, it's starting. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Again it's a one year old project and then also on premise, using the open source and we've got a program called the EEPE program it's like an early program, they're deploying and using Istio and it tends to be a very nice attach to Kubernetes. >> So what is the use case for that? >> One of the things to understand, it is very new and less than a year old, we're not even at a one dot out yet but the components that go into it, Envoy for example has been battle tested because Istio's made up of, just to get technical, in terms of having proxies that make up the data plane and that's battle testing or whatever. So now we're adding a control plane on top of that, where policy, telemetry, observability, all of that comes to the fore. That's what's new. So bringing that together and so people have and Istio's not the only service mesh, service meshes have actually been made up of these proxies and have you manage them, Istio's just seems to be a better way to the community is agreeing-- >> A proxy can be very inefficient, so I want to just ask a question on that because one of the things that I'm trying to understand is for the average person in tech, not the inside baseball, they're trying to understand why is Istio so powerful. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So is there, what paid points are they solving? >> The easiest way to think about that is we've moved to a microservices architecture and that's so that every development team can focus on their particular area of expertise, they don't want to have to learn networking and everything else, so what we've done is we've offloaded all of the issues around how do you do load balancing, circuit breakers and telemetry off to a service mesh, that allows the developer to dramatically increase their productivity because they're only focused on their one application area and now the operations team brings that together through the networking concept. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So they built a distributed application without having to know very much about the specificity. >> Yes, it's very much that separation of concern and you know Kubernetes has the same principle, it separates you know the infrastructure from the applications and what Istio does, it allows you to manage those applications at scale, visualize them, make them secure and to control them in a scalable way, so you're not writing the service management pieces into the application and the developer is therefor freed from that burden and the application operations team can then manage things like distributing certificates or rotating certificates, right? Those are things you need to do across all of your services. >> So you're bringing us on that system and I know you guys run at scale, hundreds of thousand of services, if not more, I don't know what the number is, millions whatever it is. >> Aparna: Four million containers. >> Tons. >> Aparna: A week! >> So when you talk about that, what I'm hearing and I've talked to the SRE, site reliable engineers before, the roll of the admin is gone to more of an operator and then the operator role is less of an operating, 'cause it's operating only on exception, 'cause if you got policy in the control plane, that seems to be where the action is, is that, am I getting that right? How do you explain that notion of less admin, more operational kind of-- >> There is a change in roles, the administration of the application is not so application specific if you will, right? And I think the best analogy to it is the way we do development at Google, everybody is a developer right? And they write their services but there's a lot of common infrastructure that you do not replicate so for example storage, monitoring, logging, you know publishing your API, you know quotas, rate limiting, chargebacks, billing, all of that is common infrastructure, you write your service, it is immediately using all of that infrastructure, you don't build those things into your application and that has so many benefits, you know you can write your service and it can be global. >> So on time savings, no brainer, automation-- >> And when you change any one of those services that has a monitoring or anything, now you don't have to tell the application development team that that change is happening. >> So this is infrastructure as code, passes the test right? You can program the infrastructure. >> This is services, this is a services world, rather than infrastructure world or an application siloed world, this is the world of services, that's really what we're here for. >> What's the growth in microservices? I'm seeing different stats, can you just give an order of magnitude, just from your own personal experience in looking at the market, how fast is the notion of microservices growing? 'Cause this is really the proxy for the cloud native shift. And you guys are certainly micro services oriented, we talk about this all the time, any data or any anecdotes around growth of microservices? >> Well I mean there's a lot of surveys and most of the surveys point towards, I think containers are a good proxy, you know 88 percent of enterprises are using containers, it's becoming, whether you move to the cloud or not actually containers are basically a way of doing things more repeatedly, giving you efficiency from an infrastructure perspective giving you reliability so that you know you can basically exchange out the hardware and your container environment is still resilient and then giving you that developer productivity, that's becoming something that enterprises are embracing, it seems from these surveys and I think that's the building block for microservices. >> And I think many people are already moved, remember Soho, we've got history here, so we've been trying to move towards this world in which it is a services world and before it was much too heavyweight Ectimel RPC and everything that made it, Soap and everything else, difficult to do these things. Now things have gotten much much easier. So a lot of people are actually doing a services architecture already. And the microservices I think is just a more formal way of doing that at a finer grain and when you get to this finer grain, that's when you need something like a service mesh now to pull things back together again. >> Alright, lets do a plug for the service mesh, people that are watching have got to be intrigued by this conversation, what's the state of the service mesh piece, lot of stars so good good community vibe going on, how do they get involved, what's needed, where's the white space, where's the work being done? >> And I think also John, what skills are needed to actually as a developer, you know we've got a lot of new folks here at that show that are just learning about this and what do they need to know to actually do this and bring this back to their companies. >> If they're, so first of all it's at Istio.io so that's the place to start, there's a lot of very good documentation there, there's very simple examples that can be downloaded so that you can try it out, you can try it out we're using containers so on top of cumulating, you can do it on your laptop, you can do it in the cloud so we're in this wonderful age of the internet in fact that most of the learning is done online and that you can get everything you need online you don't have to walk away from the show with a CD pack or anything else like that. So I would encourage developers to just simply try it out by themselves. Remember then there's Istio developers, people that are actually contributing code into Istio, that's sort of a specialized group of people who are very interested in it. More people, it'll be 10 to one users of Istio than there will be actually of the Istio developer community and the Istio developer community I urge people to get involved 'cause that's where we need to expand the number of use cases and make sure that we're covering the things that are important across the board for variety. >> Yeah, I mean Istio's not that difficult to learn, it's an L7 Proxy. It has a great affinity to Kubernetes project so if you are using Kubernetes or are involved in Kubernetes project then it basically is something that you can deploy into your Kubernetes cluster and you can get started with it. There are a number of trainings and workshops actually at this conference, there were a couple of Istio trainings and there are many tracks and then there's training online, there's a tutorial on the Google site with the GKE and I think on many other companies as well to get started with Istio but it's basically a proxy and in, it's not actually only limited to Kubernetes, you can run it in a VM environment, you can, it basically any service, it is a proxy that intercepts and you know basically can provide load balancing, traffic managing, quotas, all of those things that you expect of a rich proxy and so if you have a networking background it's actually very easy to pick it up. >> That's great, now when you're talking about these kind of, you know, these proxy and things along those lines, I'm sure that there are use cases that are the first ones to pop up, can you talk a little bit about that. >> Yes, I think the first use case of Istio is actually Canary, Canary deployment, so being able to route traffic from one version of your application to another version of your application. Make sure that that, lets say it's an upgrade, you know, make sure that that's running well and then gradually route more of you're traffic. So that's a very developer centric use case that appeals and then of course security. And that's a less developer centric, more control and ops perspective and then observability and again, control, also an ops perspective, those are the three main use cases. >> Okay. >> That's great, that's awesome and you have Cube Flow going on here, you guys had a couple of Google folks on. >> Yes, so I mentioned three projects that are the top projects, Istio number one, number two is Cube Flow, again within the last year, more than 3000 stars and then the last one is Scaffold. >> Great stuff, I love the programmability, automation. >> And one of the things that we mentioned before, because when people hear proxy, they think of the old time, actually when you've used a proxy and a DNS which now it's very high performance and one of the things that you're seeing also, it connects up with other open source projects such as FDIO which is VPP, which is now being used, integrated into envoy which is a proxy, so the data plane itself, I think is going to be more efficient than people trying to do their own network. >> That's a good point Lew, I mean people think proxies are inefficient, it's a hack, a bridge between point A and point B. >> Yes, that was a lot of the initial skepticism around this, so you know, this was about two years ago we were sitting around saying okay, Kubernetes, what's next? And we came up with a open service broker, so you can consume services and then the early start of Istio, starting with Envoy and then building the service mesh around that and that was indeed one of the early concerns as well, will it be too heavy, will it add latency, will there be performance bottle neck, I think a lot of that concern has been addressed and it will continue to be addressed. >> Well we got to wrap up be I want to get some comments from you guys, reaction to the show here in Europe, obviously Google is in big force, Istio is prime time, you predicted that in Austin, it looks like it's tracking beautifully, reactions, what did you walk away with here from this event? What observations, revelations, surprises, share some color for the folks that couldn't make it. >> We were talking earlier about the number of use cases now that we've seen that our customers are coming in and describing how they're using Kubernetes and other of the technologies making up the cloud native world. And that allows people to learn and so that's what I'm always excited, because I can sit there in the audience and you can see everybody else going oh, I'm going to apply that to what I'm trying to do and just the breath now of-- >> John: So you're surprised at the uptake, or you're happy with the uptake, that's your reaction? >> Yeah and I think you would agree too. >> Yeah, I think the reason I come to KubeCon is to meet users, it's a user conference, and with each passing KubeCon, it becomes more and more user-centric so some of the talks here, the takeaways that I had, you know the folks from Spotify talked about how users need to get more involved and the benefits of getting more involved in the community, that was a very inspiring talk. Another talk yesterday talked about how Kubernetes needs to be a platform for everything, not just cloud native, but actually also Legacy and so these are points. And then the third piece, a lot of users talking about multicloud, right and making that a reality, these are things that I'm taking away as you know, users are doing this today. >> John: Multicloud certainly is a path, people have that outcome in mind. >> Yes. >> Doing the work now to get there. Thanks for coming on, Aparna and Lew. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you guys, you're awesome, senior folks in the industry, experienced executives, driving the change here, cloud native, microservices architecture, whole new modern paradigm shift in software architecture, here at KubeCon, Kubernetes, Istio, hot projects, Cube Flow and more here on the Cube, live coverage here in Copenhagen, stay with us for more coverage, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. This is the theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We have two of the main players here at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, Dan Kohn, Cube alumni, Executive Director, and Dee Kumar, Vice President of product marketing. Great to see you guys. Welcome back. >> Oh, thrilled to be here. >> So you guys, not to build your head up a little bit, but you're doing really well. Successful, we're excited to be a part of the seeing, witnessing the growth. I know you work hard, we've talked in the past and off camera. Just, it's working. CNCF's formula is working. The Linux Foundation has brought a lot to the table, you've taken the ball with this cloud-native community, with Kubernetes' growth, good actors in the community, a lot of things clicking on all cylinders. >> Thanks, we're thrilled to be here. And, yeah, 43 hundred people is the biggest ever for KubeCon CloudNativeCon. It's actually the biggest conference the Linux Foundation has ever thrown, which is incredibly exciting, and also here in Europe to show it's not just a North American focus. >> And you've got the big North American event in Seattle. What's the over-under on that? Six thousand, eight thousand? >> (laughing) I think we could probably go a little higher. 75 hundred we're going to max out, so we'll see if we hit that or not. But we had 42 hundred six months ago when you were with us in Austin, and so we think a ton of people, you know people joke about Seattle being the cloudy city, because it's not just Amazon there, but Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and IBM all have huge Cloud offices. >> Yeah, and University of Washington has an amazing program in computer science, a lot of tech there. Seattle's certainly an awesome city. I got to ask you, you know, you do a lot of work with the members in the organization. Obviously the success is well-documented. We're seeing that Kubernetes is now going to main stream tech. And still learning, a lot of people learning about Kubernetes, but there's a lot going on. You talk to a lot of people. What's the vibe? What's the conversation like? What is actually happening in the membership organization that's notable, that you'd like to share and get the word out on? >> Actually Dee's been working directly with all the members since we've been putting together our marketing plan. >> So one thing I can do share, in terms of the vibe, and some of the feedback that we have received from the members, is they really, I think it's about what we've heard from all the keynotes and the sessions, it's about really us coming together as a community and defining, what is Cloud-native? And what's that journey? And so as a step towards that, what we have done as in CNCF is we have launched the interactive landscape which kind of showcases a lot of the member work that we are jointly working on. And secondly, the trail map is our attempt to define what is the cloud-native journey. So we've kind of highlighted about 10 steps and the processes to get to a cloud-native journey. And I think the next steps, in terms of the vision and the goal, is to really engage the member community and to start building on that. What is containerization? What is orchestration? Microservices? CICD? And Dan, I think in his keynote, touched upon continuous integration. We really need to figure out integration, testing, development, deployment, and what does that, all that narrative mean, and how as a community we have a common understanding and a framework. And then the next step would again be in terms of building use cases, and also really showcasing some heroes in the community which is our developers. So our developers and contributors end of the day are the heart and soul of the cloud-native ecosystem. So we really want to bring their stories, match that up with our end users. We're seeing incredible growth with just leveraging the cloud-native different types of architectures. >> One of the things I'm looking at, the cloud-native Interactive Landscape map, which is, by the way, pretty impressive. The market cap numbers in the trillions, of course includes Amazon, (Dee laughing) so let's take that out, but good healthy distribution. I want to talk about the startups, because they are going to be the lifeblood of the future. The total funding to date is 4.7 billion of cloud-native compute foundation members, startups. Significant investment. They got to build, they're building products. What do they care about? What is the most important thing for them? You guys, can you share what they're asking for, is there a profile that you're seeing emerge? Because there's a new era coming, right? It's the new guard. The new guard of startups. >> There's incredible diversity of startups there, and what I love about the startup ecosystem, kind of like the open source ecosystem, is they're all looking for their niche. And so there's kind of an evolutionary strategy for it. But it's really amazing to see different approaches towards attacking different markets, consulting specific products and such. One of the neat things about CNCF is that we like to think of ourselves as a commercially friendly startup. All 20 of our projects, commercially friendly open source foundation. All 20 of our projects use the Apache 2.0 license which allows you to create a commercial product on top of it. We are very cognizant of the fact that most large enterprises are going to want support from a business startup or an established industry player and in many cases, both, in order to roll this out. And so we love the fact that that's available if they need it, but they also could download the projects directly and work with it themselves if they want. >> Well I think that's an important point. I always want to highlight, because what you said I think is really, I think, is a big part of the success. You guys do a great job of balancing community, and the role of the people within the community, and the traditional Linux Foundation mission of having great open source. But at the same time, you're like, hey, it's okay to have a business model with Open. And I think this new era is being highly accelerated on commercialization. And I think this is, I think, a unique part of the digital fabric, the digital businesses of the future. And Cloud hits that right on. So that's, to me, a great step. The question I have for you is, how do you keep it going? What's next? Because the bar is high. Now you got to do more. What's the strategy? What's the plan? >> So one thing we can do is, like a highlighter to get back to the cloud-native journey, as a story. Today we kind of have a lot of emphasis on Kubernetes. And it's just not limited to containers and orchestration, and we really want to expand the narrative and the story to address all the 20, 19 different projects that is all housed under the cloud-native computing foundation umbrella. And we really want to bring out use cases, value props, and I think there's a lot to be told here. Like how do we address security? There's a lot of sessions and keynotes today that bring about security applications, testing, CICD, how does it develop a community, can enable all these different amazing technologies. So we've had a lot of talk about it, but I think it's something that startups that I've been talking to have asked me to help or the CNCF in terms of just simplifying these conversations. Like how do we make it simple? And to your earlier point, like they want to start with simplicity and that eventually leads to monetization, and they want to take the fabric from CNCF so they can then start building a narrative in terms of a solution, and what does that mean in terms of value creation? >> Exactly and I actually work with a couple startups inside of the CNCF, and work with them on their business model, and what they're doing, and what is that narrative that they're going to start telling? You know, I think it's interesting because you have all these communities actually coming together in that ecosystem. And when you take a look at that, you probably, you talk about use cases. And I think those are really what the developers are going to be driven towards is their, you know, onboarding to this platform, basically. And what are the top use cases that you guys see kind of across the board? >> So I think there are three main use cases and I think our partner did a great job of summarizing that today. So I think it's primarily security, because that's the enterprise audience, and most Fortune 100 companies are dealing with that. Second, I would say it's about agility. It's about who gets to market first, and back to the startup point. It's about addressing that. Thirdly I would just say it's scalability. I think it's about going beyond, you know, a science project where you just have Kubernetes, or a couple containers deployed in your own QA or staging environments. And people are really thinking about, how do you adopt Kubernetes on a large scale? How do you take it to a production type of environment? And what does that mean? And I think, today, "Financial Times" Sarah Wells, she did an amazing job of just taking us through what it took them in terms of getting from where they were and how they had to deal with, you know, all the challenges and I think she made a great point about technologies can be boring. So I think that was some of the key takeaways in terms of the three use cases that we could build on collectively would be agility, scalability, and security. >> Well, you're also changing the conversation, really. You know, we had the great customer of, you know, Kubernetes on here earlier. And they were talking about, really, how their whole infrastructure, they don't have to worry about it, it's, you know, based on AWBS now and they were phenomenal and, really, what the point was is that, you know, they are not just an energy company, they're actually a technology company and a software company. And that's really what, you know, folks want to be working with today. And are you seeing more of that as, you know, with the startups, is that they have the opportunity to start shifting their companies more in the direction of technology for the end users? >> Absolutely. Yeah. But it is amazing the just range of different approaches that they're taking. But we think there's every level of the stack. We have this, you referred to the Interactive Landscape before, and I will give the quick pitch, it's a l.cncf.io, but it is amazing to see all of the different layers of which these startups are operating. >> And you guys do a good job of breaking down which ones are open source, which ones are not, funding, public, private, category. So, good job. So what's the numbers look like? Dan, I'd like you to just take a minute, just, I know you do this a lot, but just do it on the record, what's the numbers? Members, growth? How many cities are you going to be doing KubeCon in? You mentioned Shanghai before we came on. Just run us through the numbers, inside the numbers. >> So, the first number that I think's the most exciting is we've over 20 thousand developers actively engaged across our 20 projects. And so those aren't users, I mean the users is hundreds of thousands. But those are people who've actually found issues with it, made a documentation fix, or, you know, added some significant new feature in order to scratch the itch that they were having. We have 43 hundred people here in KubeCon CloudNativeCon. These events are always a great check-in. We were together in Seattle just a year and a half ago and had a thousand people, 15 hundred here a year ago, 42 hundred in Austin in six months. What we're very excited to do is head to Shanghai in November for our first ever KubeCon CloudNativeCon China, where we now have three platinum members there, three gold members, just a huge level of engagement and interest. >> John: And a big developer community there in China. >> Definitely. >> Lauren: Huge developer community there. >> And obviously the language issue is a barrier, and we're going to be investing real resources to have simultaneous interpretation for all of our talks and all of our tracks. >> John: In real time or post-- >> Definitely in real time. >> Primarily in English and then-- >> No, we can do it both ways, and so we're telling every speaker that they can present in Chinese or English, and then the question can be in Chinese or English. >> I love that. And it's a cost, but we think that that can really help bridge those two different parts. And then we'll be in Seattle in December 11th through 13th for our biggest ever event, KubeCon CloudNativeCon. Along that journey, we've been increasing members and so we had, I believe, 68 in Berlin a year ago, and we're at 216 today, and of those we have 52 members are end user community, who we're particularly proud of. >> Well, congratulations. I want to get those numbers out in the end, because last time we talked about they had more projects coming, coming so good job. Dee, I want to get your thoughts on the branding. Obviously, CNCF, Linux Foundation, separate group, part of the Linux Foundation. I noticed you got CloudNativeCon built into it, still. Branding, guys, thoughts in here, because there's more than Kubernetes here, right, these Cloud-natives, so what's the, are you going to keep one, both, dual branding, what's the thoughts? >> So, I would say the branding will be defined by the community and the fact that we have 20 different projects. I wouldn't put a very strong emphasis on just having one type of a branding associated with cloud-natives. One of the things that I'm thinking about is I've been talking to the community, and I think it's the developers and contributors, again, who's going to define the branding of cloud-native in general. And I think it's still something that we, as a community, have to figure it out. But, essentially, it's going to be beyond containers, orchestration. There's a lot of talks around Prometheus, we talked about Code OS, Redhead. So I think it's just, you know, a combination of how all these projects work together, in a way, it's going to define the branding strategy. So I think it's a little bit too early for me to make some comments on that. >> The best move is not to move at this point. (Dan laughs) I'm a big fan of cloud-native, but KubeCon... Little bit of a conflict with theCUBE, because people-- >> Oh yeah (laughs). >> But we're not going to put a trademark and bring it on you guys, yet. >> We appreciate that. >> We love the confusion. You're in good company, vice versa. Okay, serious question, Dan. I want to ask you, and Dee you can weigh in, too, on this. You're a student of the industry. You've also been around a while, you've seen many waves. For folks that-- >> I'm not that old. (Dan laughs) >> This is a new wave. You're younger than me. For the folks that are looking at this going, "Okay, the numbers are there. I'm seeing growth, "you've got my attention." And they're still trying to grok what this wave is about, this new modern era, cloud-native, KubeCon, Kubernetes. Certainly insiders kind of see it, and there's a lot of people who are kind of high-fiving each other, but, yet, it's not yet fully here. >> Dan: No. >> How important, how do you describe it to someone at a cocktail party or in the elevator. How do I explain to them the historic nature of what's happening. In your own words, what's happening? >> And it is tricky because, you know, at my kids' little leagues games, if we're just chatting about what we do, I sometimes describe it as the plumbing software for the internet. And it's not a bad metaphor; Linux has also been described that way, because plumbing is really important. Now, most of us never think about it, we don't have to worry about it, but if it breaks, we all get extremely upset. And, so, I do think of our sort of overarching method is to say that the whole way this software is being developed, being deployed, especially being pushed into production, is changing. And it's almost all for the positive, where, in the last decade, you had virtualization, but that was often through a proprietary solution that you were paying a tax for every new application you deployed. And the idea today, that you can pick this software platform and then deploy to any public, private, or hybrid cloud and avoid that lock-in, but get all these advantages in terms of higher velocity, lower cost, better efficiency, the slack of lock-in. Those are really amazing stories that lots of enterprises are just now hearing. There's this cliche of crossing the chasm. And I do think we can make the argument that 2018 is really the year that Kubernetes crosses the chasm outside of just innovators and into the early majority. >> You know, I think that's definitely the case. I've been walking around and talking to people and one of the things that I'm hearing is that folks are here to learn, and there are actually kind of beginners on Kubernetes and they actually want to learn more and their companies have sent them here in order to actually figure out if the technology is going to work back at their home company, which is, you know, ranges from tech companies to banks to different types of, you know, manufacturing and things along those lines. It's really a tremendous, you know, growth. What do you see in terms of end users? What types of end users are you seeing mostly? Or what kind of categories do those fall into? >> So we've 52 companies in our end user community now, and a number of them are up on the stage, including folks like Spotify I thought gave a really inspiring talk today about not just being a user of software, but how to engage with the community and contribute back and such. But the thing that I love is that there really is not sort of one industry that we're focused on or avoiding. So, finance who have tons of issues around regulation and such, they're much more likely to be deploying Kubernetes in their own infrastructure on bare-metal. But we have just fantastic stories. Bloomberg won our first ever end user award. We're very big on publishing, so to have not just "The New York Times", but Reddit and Wikipedia. And then a number of just very interesting consumer-oriented companies like a Pinterest or a Twitter, Spotify, and then the list sort of keeps going and going. >> Yeah, it's impressive, and I got to say, you know, you're agnostic as everyone needs plumbing, right, so plumbing is vertical agnostics. So, it's-- >> Well, in the cliche from Marc Andreessen, that software's eating the world is, again, somewhat true. That there really is not a company today that can avoid writing its own software. I mean, as I was saying in my keynote yesterday, that software tends to just be the tip of the pyramid that they're building on tons of open source. But, every company today needs to-- >> And your point of commercialization-friendly or membership organization, which you've built, is important. And I got to say, for the first time, we heard on theCUBE multiple times, not from the visionary to believe and drink the Kool-Aid, so to speak, like us and you guys and users and other commercial entities have used the word "de facto standard" to describe Kubernetes. Now, there's only a few times in history when you've heard that word. There's been inflection points. >> Dan: Linux, certainly one of them. (laughs) >> Yes so, again, when you have a de facto standard that's determined by the community, just really good things happen. So we're hopeful and we'll keep monitoring it. >> Yeah, and I do want to say that we take that responsibility very seriously. And so we have thing like our certified Kubernetes program about making sure the Kubernetes remains compatible between the carefulness that we do apply to new projects coming in, so we hope to live up to that. >> Great and, Dee, we talked yesterday, going to get that share that information with our team, happy to amplify it. There's a lot of people who want to learn, they want to discover and find out who to connect with, so a robust community. >> We really appreciate you going with us on this journey. >> It's been fun, we're going to hang along for the ride. We're going to be a sidecar, pun intended. (laughing) Well, theCUBE, Dan, thanks so much. Congratulations, executive director. >> Oh, thank you very much. >> Dee, good work. CNCF, here inside the cube at their event, here at KubeCon 2018, I'm John Furrier and Lauren Cooney. We'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudnativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here at Copenhagen, Denmark, Cube's coverage of Kubecon 2018 in Europe, this is all about the Kubernetes the future of cloud native, CloudNativeCon part of the CNCF Cloud Native Foundation, I'm John Furrier and my co-host Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs industry expert of open source. So, we have two end user customers of Kubernetes and Cloud Native, Zach Arnold, software engineer Ygenre energy fund, and Austin Adams software development manager, same company. You guys are doing really interesting business model around energy and equity in buildings and homes, but you're writing code, so you have to make all this stuff work, so I'm sure you're cloud native, why have a data center when you can have the cloud >> Austin : We were born in the cloud. >> You were born in the cloud. So take us through, explain the business real quick, and then what's your back end, technical scaling situation look like in terms of infrastructure, software and what's the make up of the systems. >> Zach: You know the business best. >> Yeah, so Ygrene operates under something called PACE, property assess clean energy. We operate in a couple of different states. We work with local governments to create a PACE program that is accepted in different counties or jurisdictions within the state, and then we allow homeowners and contracting companies to provide financing for home improvements that are specifically within the domain of renewable energy or energy efficiency. >> So, you basically finance a solar panel that I put on my house or building if there's benefits there, and then you guys get the financing and you tie in with the government so the property taxes, the leverage the security is the building right, or the asset. >> Yeah, and the way that we're chartered is basically we can put a tax on the property which gives us some guarantees on repayment and things like that, and it's a great model so far. >> It's a new financial engineering around energy efficiancy so you've got to build systems, so you're working with government, so now we all know how government systems work, so you've got to be agile and nimble. Take us through how the back end works, what's it look like, what's the system look like, you're hosted in the cloud, is it Amazon, Google? >> So everything that we have is in a cloud provider that starts with an A, and ends with an S, it's AWS I don't know if I can say that, I think I can say that, AWS all the way-- >> Yes, it's good. >> And we have tons of services, we have Kubernetes running most of our main services. Within our migration we actually started with our main service. A lot of people start with, you know, their smallest microservice, we just went whole-hog and just went in for it, so they system is mainly a lone-management system. Underwriting data aggregation and underwriting processing, so every application that comes in we have to underwrite it and make sure every little thing checks out, and our underwriting system has won awards for how accurate it is and how high quality it is as well. >> So, I'm doing a mental white board in my mind, just kind of graphing this so just help me out here and take us through this. So, you guys are a cutting edge company, new progressive business model, real innovative, great stuff. Cloud native, so you're born in the cloud no data center, cool, check, it's what everyone does, and now you're like okay, now I've got to deal with these legacy systems. So, you're putting containers around things, so you have to interface, you build your own system so that's cool, but you're dealing with other systems and then how are you handling that, you are just containerizing it, so take us through some of those linkages. >> Yeah, so where we're creating, a lot of times when we have to integrate with another system, we'll create a small service that is code that we own, and we'll reach out to those integrations, those vendors and we'll do aggregation within our system and provide an interface back to our systems. You know, like everyone, we're breaking up the monolith or whatever, maybe in 10 years we'll go back to a monolith, who knows but you know we're slicing out things, making microservices, it looks like a mess on the back end, just tons of microservices going everywhere and that's why we're using all these Cloud Native tools to be able to manage that. So, in order to move quickly, we're wanting to containerize everything, everything runs in a container at this point. >> Lauren: Great. >> A lot of our services follow this kind of we're kind of calling the container adaptor pattern, it follows the software adaptor pattern where, just like Austin was saying, let's say for example we're interfacing with a credit vendor, we create a service where we talk to our own service that has a well defined interface that we know will always get a credit report back with the following fields, but then where that information actually comes from, whether it's one of the big three credit vendors or someone else who has a well defined API, that's largely not the concern of the main loan management system, it's the concern of the microservice that's responsible for reaching out to that other entity there. So, that's how we've kind of gotten to beat around the legacy interfacing of all these other different financial services and tools that help to aggregate data.. >> It's super clever you can optimize on a service basis but now you have to orchestrate and kind of conduct everything through-- >> And keep everything secure. >> That's really interesting, I mean I think what I'm looking at here is a huge ecosystem of partners and companies and end users coming together and one of the questions, beyond why you are here, what are you looking at here, what is interesting to you, what do you want to learn about that you might bring into your, you know, architecture essentially? >> Austin and I were talking about this, we kind of tend to look at the CNCF list of projects as a dinner menu. (laughs) >> We're refreshing that page frequently, because we're adding projects at an alarming rate, but one project we're using FluentD, Notary, Kubernetes, of course, Prometheus, things like that, we want to start using those things more extensively. One's that we're really excited about are Spire and Spiffy, the identity, kind of a new take, not necessarily new but new for cloud native take on identity of services and authentication, as well as the open policy agent to provide a single DSL to do all of your policy and authorization-- >> Lauren: That's a lot of work, load and management and identity correct? >> Yeah, yes. >> Authorization and authentication are two of the most important things that happen in our system and we have so many different ways that it happens right now, it can tend to look a little clogy, just from the sense of the fact that we need a little more coordination or standardization around it, I mean we have well written policies that are documented but the way that those actually get enforced are, it's individualized based on the service, you know, if it's a cloud based policy, then it's AWS IAM, if it's Kubernetes based policy it's RBAC using Kubernetes RBAC, so it kind of looks like if we can abstact a lot of that functionality out of the services, the containers, the orchestration tool or the cloud, to making those decisions, that would really, really simplify things for us. >> So, you guys are end users, so are you part of like an end user group that gives feedback directly into the community or how does that work, and do you contribute to that? >> Yes, so we're on the fringes of the contributor community as well, and we're definitely on GitHub on all these projects posting issues and in some cases providing our own PR's or whatever. None of us are within the Kubernetes orb but that's definitely something we all are achieving or aspiring to be is jumping into some of these projects, especially some of the smaller projects that we're using on a daily basis on our build servers like, Portheurs or Notary, some of those things we're actively contributing to those. >> So, you've traded on mastery of product but being active on the project is the key, the balance there. >> Yeah, I mean typically what you find in the fiance industry is when they go for a solution, they lead with their wallet as for what we can purchase, or what we can sponsor, but Ygrene has been, our managers and management have been incredibly empowering this way, they say well what can we give, we lead with our hands. >> Yeah, and this is interesting, if you have a good business model innovation, which you guys have, you can be a completely clean sheet of paper to build it. >> Right >> So, that's the best thing about the cloud. You can really move fast and go from, you know, point A to point B, move the needle. >> Yeah, with it at the same time there's kind of a clean slate, there's even a clean slate in terms of best practices within our industry. Now if we were in mortgage, there's a lot of rules, there's a lot of clear guidelines on how to do security and auditing and things that you need, where in our industry that's all emerging, so we have a chance to also set the pace, set the tone for what security might look like, or what cloud usage might look like within the PACE industry. But at the same time, we're getting increasing government regulations, so we're having to make these decisions around, what are the tools that are going help us achieve maximum customer protection and audit-ability while maintaining our business model without totally-- >> And you're going to need flexibility because you don't know what's going to come next you've got to be ready for anything, and that is what leads to my next question, two points, how do you guys prepare for what's next, what's the main ethos around, technical architecture around being prepared for that, ready state that's coming to you, and then two, what have you learned over the, what's the scar tissue look like, what's the moments of joy and despair going on because you're reiterating, your learning, you're always constantly getting knocked down, standing back up. so this is what innovation is, it can be fun and also grueling at the same time. >> Yeah, so how we deal with what's new beyond our like software process, we have a well-defined process that everything gets churned into. Government is really good about giving us notice about when stuff's going into effect, so we always have target dates that we're going toward. But, in terms of what's next in terms of our software, we have this interesting culture within our organization, everyone wants to improve everything, I think it's called a Kaizen culture, just people are looking at stuff they want to improve it, and so our process allows for anyone to throw something on the backlog. It will get prioritized and put around, but we're allowing all of our engineers to say, hey we want to do this, and you know, putting it into an open forum where, you know, we might not do it but we have the discussion, and we have all the channels to have those discussions and, like most technology companies or technology focused companies, we spend a lot of time talking about technologies, and making those decisions. >> You guys really have the cultural ethos but the people to bate and then commit. >> And that's one of my, you know, recommendations for any company trying to move to cloud native or Kubernetes is, always, you have to have your evangelists, on your team, because you can't expect people who have been doing it one way forever to instantly be onboard. You need some sort of technical evangelist whether that's outside company, it works best, I think, if it's someone you've hired, or someone in your organization who's preaching the gospel of Kubernetes or cloud native. >> Spark Labs, Lauren's company's doing a lot of that work, but that really nails it, I mean, you got to just, it's not a technical issue, per se-- >> Exactly. >> We're hearing that all through the show here. What's on your wish list, what is the holiday's want to bring for you? If you could throw your wish list out there, and you can, a magic wand, crystal ball >> EKS, if Amazon would respond to our request. >> Okay, we just had AG on yesterday, he said it's coming >> It's coming. >> He said, months, >> Did he say months, I thought it was a few months, So maybe >> We'll check the transcripts. >> Alright >> Yeah, it wasn't tomorrow. >> That's alright. >> And that's one of our, that's our scar tissue right? We're doing this ourself, you know, there's this huge control board and we got people, you know, doing the knobs and things and we're relatively small, you know, we're a small engineering organization so we're doing a lot of this ourselves where we can abstract a lot of that work out to a cloud provider that we are already on. >> Well it's going to be good reps for you guys as this thing gets abstracted away, you're going to have a great core competencies in Kubernetes, I think that is a notable thing there. >> Austin: For sure. >> One of the things on my wish list, I was speaking to Jace and Josh Burkus and a lot of the core contributors in Kubernetes at the Contributors Summit, I kind of realized that I would love to see a coordinated cross cutting after, either on part of the CNCF or on part of The Kubernetes Project proper, to have a proactive security, I wouldn't call it a working group, I guess a SIG, a Special Interest Group. It would be, I know that we can deal with zero day issues really, really quickly. For example, the Azure host path mapping issue that was a few months ago, but right now it's kind of on the responsibility of each SIG to implement whatever security looks like to them individually, which is great, it means there are people thinking about security, that makes me sleep better at night. But, seeing some coordination around that and kind of driving towards, okay we have this tool that seems to be changing the game, how are we going to change the game with security? Like is there a way to look at that and even, 'cause authentication and authorization have been around since more than one user used a terminal in the 1960's and 70's. But, even with this new step of admission controllers, where we have more fine grain control around how stuff gets into the cluster. I think it would be great to look at what a coordinated cloud native security effort would look like. >> I think that's great, I mean we've been talking to a lot of vendors here and a lot of folks that have projects, and we bring security every single time and they kind of have an answer, but they really don't. >> They body swerve you, we've got this we've got that. >> Or you're the developer and you have to build it in yourself, so I totally agree with that recommendation I think it's fabulous. >> Yeah, Kubernetes is making so many things simpler at certain levels. Now, if we can focus those efforts at making security simple for people, because they're security experts, they can put their two cents in >> Lauren: Let's build it in and not block it on. >> Build it in and not expect every developer to know. >> Zach: Don't bolt it on, build it in. >> Build it from the beginning, there are all kinds of new ways. The fact there is no perimeter with the cloud brings up, really kind of throws everyone for a loop because you have to go to the chipset down, I mean what Google got, I think is a very interesting approach, they're trying to push forward this multilayer approach from chip to kernel to OS to app, interesting. They've got, managing through all their security, they've got android, I mean spear phishing is a huge problem right now, we're seeing and a lot of enterprises we talk to are like, well, it's like the firewalls and VPN's like that's old school, they need to modernize that so this is going to get them thinking about that. So great, hey guys, thank you for coming on and sharing your feedback-- >> Thank you. >> And your data and your place and how you are architected on AWS and your work with Kubernetes. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Cube coverage here in Copenhagen. It's theCUBE's coverage at Kubecon 2018. We'll be back with more after this short break.

>> Narrator: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, live coverage here in theCUBE, in Europe, at Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon Europe 2018. This is theCUBE. We have the CNCF, at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs, new venture around open source and innovation. Our analysts here, today with theCUBE, and our two guests are Michael Hausenblas, who's the direct developer advocate at Red Hat. Diane Meuller's the director of community development at Red Hat, talking about OpenShift, Red Hat, and just the rise and success of OpenShift. It's been really well-documented here on theCUBE, but certainly, in the industry, everyone's taking notice. Great to see you again, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you. >> And wonderful to be here again. >> So, first of all, a lot of big news going on. CoreOS is now part of Red Hat, so that's exciting. I haven't had a chance to talk to you guys about that yet here on theCUBE, but great, great puzzle piece from the industry there for you guys, congratulations. >> Yeah, it's been a wonderful collaboration, having the CoreOS team as part of the Red Hat, and the OpenShift team, it's just a perfect fit. And the team from CoreOS, they've always been my favorite people. Alright, and Brandon Philips and the team over there are just awesome. And to have the expertise from Tectonics, the operator framework, which you'll hear more about here at KubeCon EU this week, to have Quay under the wings of Red Hat now, and Quay is a registry with OpenShift or with any other Kubernetes, you know, the stuff that they brought to the table, and the expertise, as well as the wonderful culture that they had, it was such a perfect fit with OpenShift. >> And you know, you guys bring a lot to the table, too. And I was, I mean, I've been kind of critical of CoreOS in the past, in a good way, 'cause I love those guys. I had good chats with them over the years, but they were so pure open-source guys, like Red Hat. >> Diane: Well, there's nothing wrong with being pure open-source. (laughing) >> No, no, I'm cool with that, but you guys have perfected the business more, you have great customers. So one of the things that they were always strong at was the open-source piece but when you start to monetize, and you start to get into the commercialization, it's hard for a start-up to be both, pure open-source and to monetize. You guys now have it together, >> Yeah. >> Great fit. >> So, it's a wonderful thing. We, on the OpenShift side, we have the OpenShift Commons, which is our open-source community, and we've sort of flipped the model of community development and that's at Red Hat. And one of the things is, they've been really strong, CoreOS, with their open-source projects, whether etcd, or you know, a whole myriad of other things. >> Well, let's double down on that. I want to get your thoughts. What is this OpenShift Commons? Take a minute to talk about what you guys had. You had an event Monday. It was the word on the streets, here in the hallways, is very positive. Take a minute to explain what happened, what's going on with that program? >> So OpenShift Commons is the open-source community around OpenShift Origin, but it also includes all the upstream projects that we collaborate with, with everybody from the Kubernetes world, from the Promytheus, all the CNCF project leads, all kinds of people from the upstream projects that are part of the OpenShift Ecosystem, as well as all the service providers and partners, who are doing wonderful things, and all the hosts, like Google, and you know, Microsoft Azure folks are in there. But, we've kind of flipped the model of community development on its head. In the past, if you were a community manager, which is what I started out as, you were trying to get people to contribute to your own code base. And here, because there's so much cross-community collaboration going on, we've got people working on Kubernetes. We got Kubernetes people making commits to Origin. We work on the OCI Foundation, trying to get the container stuff all figured out. >> So when you say you flipped the model, you mean there's now multiple-project contributions going on, or? >> Yeah, we've got our fingers in lots of pies now, and we have to, the collaboration has to be open, and there has to be a lot of communication. So the OpenShift Commons is really about creating those peer-to-peer networks. We do a lot of stuff virtual. I host my own OpenShift Commons briefings twice a week, and I could probably go to three or four days a week, and do it, because there's so much information. There's a fire hose of new stuff, new features, new releases, and stuff. Michael just did one on FAS. You did one before for the machine-learning Saigon OpenShift on Callum. >> Hold on, I want to just get your thoughts, Michael, on this, because what came up yesterday on theCUBE, was integration glue layers are really important. So I can see the connection here. Having this Commons model allows people to kind of cross-pollenate, one. Two, talk about integration, because we've got Promytheus, I might use KubeFlow. So there's new things happening. What does this mean for the integration piece? Good for it, or accelerating it? What's your thoughts? >> Right, right, right. So, I mainly work upstream which means when it is KubeFlow and other projects. And for me, these kind of areas where you can bring together both, the developers, and the end users, which is super important for us to get the feedback to see where we really are struggling. We hear a lot from those people that meet there, what their pinpoints are. And that is the best way to essentially shape the agenda, to say, well, maybe let's prioritize this over this other feature. And as you mention, integration being one big part, and Functions and Service being, could be considered as the visual basics of applications for Cloud Native Computing. It can act as this kind of glue between different things there. And I'm super excited about Commons. That's for me a great place to actually meet these people, and talk with them. >> So the Commons is almost a cross-pollination of folks that are actually using the code, building the code, and they see other projects that makes sense to contribute to, and so it's an alignment where you allow for that cross-pollination. >> It's a huge series of conversations, and one of the things that is really important to all of the projects is, as Michael said, is getting that feedback from production deployments. People who are working on stuff. So we have, I think we're at around 375 organizational members, so there's... >> John: What percentage of end-user organizations, do you think? >> It's probably about 50/50. You know, you can go to Commons.OpenShift.org, and look up the participants list. I'm behind a little bit in getting everybody in there, but-- >> John: So it's a good healthy dose of end-users? >> It's a good healthy dose of end-users. There's some special interest groups. Our special interest groups are more around used cases. So, we just hosted a machine-learning reception two nights ago, and we had about 200 people in the room. I'd say 50% of them were from the KubeFlow community, and the other 50% were users, or people who are building frameworks for our people to run on OpenShift. And so our goal, as always, is to make OpenShift the optimal, the best place to run your, in this case, machine-learning workloads, or-- >> And I think that's super critical, because one of the things that I've been following a little bit, and you know, I have your blog entry in front of me, is the operator framework, and really what you're trying to do with that framework, and how it's progressing, and where it's going, and really, if you can talk a little bit about what you're doing there, I think that would be great for our viewers. >> So what I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure you get Brandon Philips here, on your KubeFlow, sometime this week, 'cause I don't want to steal the thunder from his keynote tomorrow morning-- >> Lauren: Well, drop a couple hints. (laughs) >> John: Share a little bit, come on. >> So the operator stuff that CoreOS, and they brought it to the table, so it's really their baby. They had done a lot of work to make sure that they had first-class access to be able to inject things into Kubernetes itself, and make it run. And they're going to do a better technical talk on it than I am, and make things run. And so that what they've done is they've opened up and created an STK for operators, so other people can build more. And we think, this is a tipping point for Kubernetes, and I really don't want to steal any thunder here, or get in over my head, is the other part of it, too. >> I think Brandon is the right person to talk about that. >> Brandon, we'll drag Brandon over here. >> I'm super excited about it, but let's-- >> Yeah, let's talk about why you're super excited about it. Is there anything you can kind of tell us in terms of what? >> Enables people to run any kind of workload in communities, in a reliable automated fashion. So you bring the experience that human operators have into software. So you automate that application, which makes it even more suitable to run your enterprise application that so far might have not been the best place to run. >> Lauren: That's great, yeah. >> And yeah, I'm also looking forward to Brandon explaining the details there. >> So I think it's great hearing about that, and we talk a lot about how it's great for users. It's great, you know, operators, developers, how they're building things out, and things along those lines. But one of the things that we are not hearing a ton about here, and we want to hear more about, is security. Security is increasingly important. You know, we're hearing bits and pieces but nothing's really kind of coming together here and what're your thoughts on that? >> Security, I was recently, when I blogged about it, and people on Twitter said, well, is that really true that, you know, couldn't this secure body fall? It's like, well, all the pieces are there. You need to be aware of it. You need to know what you're doing. But it is there, right? All the defaults might not be as you would expect it, but you can enable it. And I think we did a lot of innovations there, as well. With our back, and security context, and so on. And, actually, Liz Rice and myself are working on putting the security cookbook, and for a variety that will come out later this year. We're trying to document the best practice, because it is early days, and it's quite a range of things. From building container images in a secure way, to excess control, and so on, so there's a lot of stuff (mumbles). >> What're some of the end-user feedback sessions, or feedback data that you're getting from these sessions? What is some of the things you guys are hearing? What's the patterns? What's the things that are boiling up to the top? >> Well, there's so many. I mean, this conference is one of those ones where it's a cornucopia of talks, and trying to, I just wrote a little blog post called, The Hitchhiker's Guide to KubeCon. It's on blog.openshift.com. And because, you could spend all of your time here in a different track, and never leave it, like Security 1, or in Operations 1, or-- >> John: There's a lot of great content. >> I think the Istio stuff is probably the hottest thing I'm hearing people going to. There was a great deep-dive training session, hands-on on Monday, here, that got incredible feedback. IBM and Google did that one. We had a lot of customer talks and hands-on training sessions on Monday. Here, there are pretty much, there's a great talk coming up this afternoon, on Kube Controllers that Magic... I think that's at 11:45-ish. There are a lot of the stuff around Service Fish, and service brokers, is really kind of the hot thing that people are looking for to get implemented. And we've got a lot of people from Red Hat working on that. There's, oh man, there's etcd updtes, there's a bazillion things going-- >> John: It's exploding big time here. >> Yeah. >> No doubt about it. >> The number one thing that I'm seeing last couple of months, being onsite with customers, and also here, is that given that Kubernetes is now the defective standard of container authorization, people are much more willing to go all-in, you know? >> Yeah. >> A lot of folks were on the fence, for a couple of years, going like, which one's going to make it? Now, it's kind of like, this is a given. You couldn't, you know, just as Linux is everywhere on the servers, that's the same with Kubernetes, and people are now happy to really invest, to like, okay, let's do it now, let's go all in. >> Yeah, and, what we're hearing, too, just stepping back and looking at the big picture is we see the trend, kind of hearing and connecting the dots, as the number of nodes is going to expand significantly. I mean, Sterring was on stage yesterday, and we heard their, and still small, not a lot of huge, not a lot on a large scale. So, we think that the scale question is coming quickly. >> Well, I think it already came, alright? In the machine-learning reception that we had at night, one of the gentleman, Willem Bookwalter, from Microsoft, and Diane Feddema, from Red Hat, and a whole lot of people are talking about how do we get, because machine-learning workloads, have such huge work, you know, GPU, and Google has their TPU requirements to get to scale, to run these things, that people are already pushing the envelope on Kubernetes. Jeremy Eater from Red Hat has done some incredible performance management work. And on the CNCF blog, they've posted all of that. To get the optimal performance, and to get the scale, is now, I think, one of the next big things, and there's a lot of talks that are on that. >> Yeah, and that's Istio's kind of big service mesh opportunity there, is to bring that to the next level. >> To the next level, you know, there's going to be a lot of things that people are going to experience trying to get the most out of their clusters, but also, I think we're still at the edge of that. I mean, someone said something about getting to 2,500 nodes. And I'm like, thinking, that's just the beginning, baby. >> Yeah, it's going to be more, add a couple zeroes. I got to ask you guys, I got to put you both on the spot here, because it's what we do on theCUBE. You guys are great supporters of theCUBE. We appreciate that, but we've had many conversations over the years with OpenShift, going back to OpenStacks, I don't know what year it was, maybe 2012, or I don't know. I forget what year it was. Now, the success of OpenShift was really interesting. You guys took this to a whole 'nother level. What's the reaction? Are you, as you look back now on where you were with OpenShift and where you are today, do you pinch yourself and say, damn? Or what's your view? >> Red Hat made a big bet on Kubernetes three years ago, three and a half years ago, when people thought we were crazy. You know, they hadn't seen it. They didn't understand what Google was trying to open-source, and some of the engineers inside of Red Hat, Clayton Coleman, Matt Hicks, a lot of great people, saw what was coming, reached out, worked with Google. And the rest of us were like, well, what about Ruby and Rails, and Mongo DB, and you know, doing all this stuff? And like, we invested so much in gears and cartridges. And then, once they explained it, and once Google really open-sourced the whole thing, making that bet as a company, and pivoting on that dime, and making version 3.0 of OpenShift and OpenShift Origin, as a Kubernetes-based platform, as a service, and then, switching over to being a container platform, that was a huge thing. And if you had talked to me back then, three years ago, it was kind of like, is this the right way to go? But, then, you know, okay. >> Well, it's important to history to document that point, because I remember we talked about it. And one of the things, you guys made a good bet, and people were scratching their head, at that time. >> Oh yeah. >> Big time. But also, you've got to give credit to the community, because the leaders in the community recognized the importance of Kubernetes early on. We've been in those conversations, and said, hey, you know, we can't screw this up, because it was an opportunity. People saw the vision, and saw it as a great opportunity. >> I think, as much as I like the technical bits, as an engineer, the API being written and go, and so on, I really think the community, that is what really makes the difference. >> Yeah, absolutely does. >> If you compare it with others, they're also successful. But here with CNCF, all the projects, all the people coming together, and I love the community, I really-- >> It's a case study of how to execute, in my opinion. You guys did a great job in your role, and the people didn't get in the way and try to mess it up. Great smart people understood it, shepherded it through, let it grow. >> And it really is kudos to the Kubernetes community, and the CNCF, for incubating all of this wonderful cross-community collaboration. They do a great job with their ambassadors program. The Kubernetes community does amazing stuff around their SIGs, and making sure that projects get correctly incubated. You know, they're not afraid to rejig the processes. They've just done a wonderful thing, changing the way that new projects come into the Kubernetes, and I think that willingness to learn, learn from mistakes, to evolve, is something that's really kind of unique to the whole new way of thinking about open-source now, and that's the change that we've seen. >> And open-source, open movements, always have a defining moment. You know, the OSI model, remember? That stack never got fully standardized but it stopped at a really important point. PCPIP, IP became really important. The crazy improbability world, CISCO, as we know, and others. This is that kind of moment where there's going to be a massive wealth creation, value creation opportunity because you have people getting behind something, as a de facto standard. And then, there's a lot of edge work around it that can be innovated on. I think, to me, this is going to be one of those moments we look back on. >> Yeah, and I think it's that willingness to adjust the processes, to work with the community, and you know, that Kubernetes, the ethos that's around this project, we've learned from a lot of other foundations' mistakes. You know, not that they're better or worse, but we've learned that you could see the way we're bringing in new projects, and adding them on. We took a step back as a community, and said okay, this is, we're getting too many, too soon, too fast. And maybe, this is not quite the right way to go. And rather than doing the big tent umbrella approach, we've actually starting doing some really re-thinking of our processes, and the governing board and the TOC of the CNCF, have done an awesome job getting that done. >> When you got lightning in a bottle, you stop and you package it up, and you run with it, so congratulations. Red Hat Summit next week, we'll be there, theCUBE. >> Oh yeah. >> Looking forward to going deep on this. >> Well, the OpenShift Commons Gathering is the day before Red Hat Summit. We've completely sold out, so sorry, there's a waitlist. We've gone from being, our first one, I think we had 150 people come. There's over 700 people now coming to the Gathering one, and 25 customers with production deployments speaking. This is the day before Red Hat Summit. And I lost count of how many OpenShift stories are being told at Red Hat Summit. It's going to be a crazy, jetlag-y week, next week, so-- >> Congratulations, you guys got a spring in your step, well done. OpenShift going to the next level, certainly the industry and Kubernetes, a service mesh as Istio. Lot of great coverage here in theCUBE, here in Europe for KubeCon 2018 in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier, and Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs. I'm with theCUBE, we'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us! Day Two, here at KubeCon, we'll be right back. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with my cohost this week, Lauren Cooney, and our next guest, Ed Warnicke, distinguished consulting engineer with Sysco Systems, CUBE alum. Great to see you, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Good to be back. >> So great developer action, end of day one. We're going to be here all day tomorrow. So day one's kind of coming into the books. Your thoughts on what's happening here. Different crowd but active. >> No extremely active. Actually, one of the things I've noticed, and this is sort of a subtle point when you've been around a lot of open source projects is you have a lot of people who are new to the Kubernetes community are coming in. And one of the things I found extremely heartening is, they've got a really organized approach to it. When they did their developer summit, they had an entire track for bringing new contributors on. They've just revamped their documentation to help people that are here, and they're finding better and better ways to articulate the things that people need to hear to help them make the leap to Cloud Native. 'Cause one of the underappreciated things about Cloud Native is that it's different from the move to Cloud 1.0 that we made a few years ago, is that Cloud Native is not a lift and shift behavior. You have to change the way you think about doing your job. >> And that's the global platform. This is not just a transformation process. It's a lifetime transformation. >> Absolutely. >> Huge personnel issue. People process technology, technology last one. >> Ed: Have you accepted Cloud Native into your heart? >> I have come to terms with my-- (Ed laughing) lift and shift problem that I have, and I'm now aware, self-aware of Cloud Native. >> The first step is to admit you have a problem. (John chuckling) The making amends to your infrastructure takes longer. >> I mean, look if-- >> And you would know, so. (laughing) Well, anyways. >> We're all working on it. >> So, I have a question for you here. As you were talking about how you're seeing a lot of new developers coming on in and things along those lines. I'm also running into a lot of new developers at the hotel, at dinner, just walking around and having discussions. Where do you see these guys coming from? I see them coming from banks, from large technology companies that are based in Europe. Where are you seeing these folks? >> So that ends up matching very closely with what I'm seeing as well. From all over the place. From people who finance large energy projects, right? From all areas of finance. Basically, all the sorts of people who have big compute problems are starting to turn up at the Cloud Native world because this is literally where you solve those problems. And I think that's part of what's driving the ecosystem is, the folks in Kubernetes made a number of incredibly intelligent decisions early on about how their architecture was built in terms of the modularity and expandability of it. And the result is that you get lots of people with lots of energy coming in saying, "I have a problem like this." There's an obvious well-worn path to try and put together a proposed solution for solving problems like this. And they engage with the community. One of the things that you're seeing just in terms of how the community grows itself is, they've got special interest groups, SIGs for various areas in Kubernetes. They've now had to spawn working groups that come under them. You're just seeing things like Kubernetes proposals for how you're going to do things coming to far. So there's a lot of the maturity process that you expect to deal with the scale of people who want to solve their problems this way. >> So you're actually not seeing sprawl. You're seeing highly organized groups coming together in a way that can make the platform more positive. >> Yeah, absolutely. Not only am I not seeing sprawl, but I'm starting to see highly intelligent things being said by the people who work at what we think of as the core of Kubernetes. So I've heard a number of people make the comment that they expect the Kubernetes core to actually shrink in terms of what it offers because the broader ecosystem is picking up so much of the slack. So this sort of core APIs of, this is what is Kubernetes without having picked out some options that meet your needs, is keeping itself very tight while having architected it in a way where you could have this broad ecosystem without the kinds of problems you sometimes get with sprawl in other communities. >> So whilst you want to get bigger, but you've got to get smaller to get bigger. >> In some sense, yeah. You have to decide what's really important to get right in the core and really nail it. >> What are they getting right, in your opinion? What's right about it that's going on? You mentioned some of the smart decisions that they're making. >> So, a couple of the things that they've gotten really, really right are our relentless focus on developer needs. So I see this particularly in networking, and I think we've talked about this before. Developers don't want to know about subnets. They don't want to know about L2 segments. They don't even want to know about IP addresses, frankly. What they really care about is two things. Reachability and isolation. Everybody can talk to everybody unless they decide you should be isolated. And service discovery and service running. Those are the only two things they care about, and wouldn't you know it! In Kubernetes, you have network policies that control the reachability and isolation and services that do services discovery and service routing for you. So they've absolutely nailed the fundamental developer needs. >> Made you pain point. >> Yeah. >> So what's your take on just the ecosystem. Obviously, we've commented, and this is always a dangerous game with communities, is logo farm, everyone's here, right? >> Yeah, I mean, they took the CNCF logos and probably, I think they broke them into three categories now. I'm not exactly sure what that means. >> John: A whole new sponsorship level for-- >> Architecture? I'm not sure. (John and Ed laughing) But, Ed, maybe you could provide some clarity here. >> Well, I mean, there is a certain risk in being loved to death, right? Kubernetes is full blown into what I will sometimes call crises of success, which is, you are succeeding so wildly that it's beginning to be a problem. And that's good to see. But I think you're starting to see certain categories of things that are emerging. And there was a good set of readouts from the various SIGs to Kubernetes yesterday in the developer summit. So you've got a bunch of stuff around networking. You have a bunch of things around storage. These are sort of fundamental infrastructure issues. But you have a bunch of things, literally, about how so we expand the Kubernetes platform. How does that work? How do we produce the constructs we need to solve the various problems that are arising, and those things are all sort of progressively moving forward. And we're getting to sort of the interesting point where the people who did the original turn of the APIs are being really blunt and honest saying, "Look! "These are the things we got right, "and these are the things we got wrong." And there's a lot to be said for having that level of honesty with yourself on stage in public, right? When you're the guy who wrote the code, it's unequivocally your mistake. And being able to stand up and say, "Look, "we got this one wrong." >> But that's the community trust that you have, and that's what makes the community. >> And that trust goes both ways. It's the trust of the community in that leader standing on the stage, but it's also the trust of that leader that we're going to move fast, we're going to do things right, but there's always a turn of the crank to do things better. And we got to be straightforward about that. >> And their self-awareness around the iteration is key. They're putting their egos at the door, checking it at the door, focusing on the advancement. I got to get your thoughts, from both of you guys, I want to ask you guys both a question. I know that you're doing a lot a work with some start-ups, and you with Cisco, the big company. What's interesting about this ecosystem is, the balance between the big players and the enablement for the small start-ups to be successful. We had a variety of start-ups here with news on theCUBE. This is the give get between sharing in projects where there's a balance and everyone can thrive and survive and grow together. Thoughts on that balance. Start-ups have needs, but they're not as big as the big guys. So what's your thoughts on-- >> Why don't you start, Ed. >> Well, to begin with, we can't do everything much as we would like to. Back to the self-honesty, you have to be honest with yourself about that. And nobody has a monopoly on the good ideas. And so you really have to engage with the ecosystem and figure out how different aspects of the problem knit together. I've had a lot of interesting conversations. I, personally, have some interest in what I sort of call unified IO. So converged networking storage. So I'm talking to a lot of folks who are doing storage stuff, lot a little start-ups that are doing really cool things with storage about things we can do to help them there from the network side, and they're excited about that, right? And it's that, that's the sort of open source spirit that makes it possible to have all these start-ups because, I'll be really frank, most of these start-ups, if they were having to try and build the thing themselves, they're simply not resourced to do it. But with so much support from the community in the broad, on a relatively thin start-up budget, you can move mountains. >> Yeah, if you tap the formula properly, that's the key. >> The start-ups are getting more and more sophisticate about tapping that formula because only... Getting a good product is only a very small part of the equation. You also have to get the connection with the community because you have to make sure, even if you're entirely self-interested, if you build a thing, there will be a thing in the open source that does that. And it is a fundamental truth in the modern era that 80% of the value or more of all software is its connection to everything else in the ecosystem. >> Lauren, I want to get your thoughts on this. You're doing this now as a new start-up, you're a founder of and running, but you've built programs. Modern architectures at play here. You're seeing microservices growth phenomenal. Cloud Native is just whole nother ball game, going to a whole nother level. As you're engaging out there, what are you seeing for this modern community formula playbook, whatever you want to call it. There's a way to do things now at a whole nother level that this is going. >> No, I-- >> Your thoughts. >> I definitely agree. I think the developer experience is really key, making it simple, making it just seamless, right? So folks don't have to wait to download something, or they don't have to wait for, you know. They can just click a couple buttons through a GUI and make it really, really simple, especially those on-boarding. What I see from the start-up side is a lot of... This is interesting because I think it's important. A lot of start-ups coming from companies that wouldn't allow them to do open source inside the companies. So they're leaving these larger companies, and they're doing start-ups. They're raising pretty good capital for seed rounds and A rounds. And I think, this is something that's pretty hot right now and we want to take a look at. And the VCs are definitely looking. >> What about the big companies that we all know, obviously Cisco, IBM, you see Amazon here. They have huge scale. Even Microsoft has had developer programs been successful over the years, we all know that. What's the modern tweak that they're making that you're seeing work? >> Oh, I think it's the small teams. Adrian was on here earlier talking about microservices and micro-teams, and I think he's absolutely right. You have to have teams that are building these services that are moving quite quickly and doing it in a way that's rapid enough to keep up or be ahead of the market. >> The micro-team point, I think, is actually really apropos because... This is going to sound very engineering propellor-head, but the management overhead gets to be quite steep when you try and do anything with big teams, right? So you got to have very loose coupling to everything else in the system, which is exactly what Cloud Native is about. And that's what you see not only in the start-ups but you see these sort of hybrid approaches emerge, where you have a start-up that has a small team and another start-up that has a small team that's nearby and a large company like Cisco that has a small team, and there's an interaction between all of these. And we're sort of operating as the growing up of this larger team completely across boundaries. It'll resolve actual user problems. >> I think it's a historic time. I think you guys are right on. This is such an exciting time for, if you're an engineer, software developer, or anyone in large-scale systems, and building applications is going to a whole nother level. Look at blockchain right around the corner, decentralized applications is coming soon. We won't go there in this interview 'cause it's KubeCon, but I got to get your take. What's your view so far of what's working here, hallway conversations you're having? What are some of the things going on here that someone who's not here might want to know about? >> I tend to be very focused on networking things, so the thing that I'm most excited about that's happening here is, the entire world seems to be getting meshy, right? So there's a huge excitement around service mesh and Istio, which I think is extremely well-placed. The fundamental thing that's really happening there is, they're progressively taking parts of the problem that you're not good at if you're writing a microservice, and they're pulling them out into a sidecar envoy so that you don't have to worry about service discovery and service routing. You don't have to worry about the policies for how you're going to figure out what things you do about getting to the next guy in the chain of the work. You don't have to worry about even things as simple as making sure that you respond to faults well, right? And there's a whole new set of ways that you think about problems in this space that's emerging there. One of the things that I'm actually really excited about that's also meshy is when you get to things like people who have less common network problems. So the operators with NFV, people who have more sophisticated network needs. We're starting to reimagine that stuff in the language of service mesh, right? So rather than trying to force all the legacy thinking about networking into Cloud Native where it's not wanted, we try and recast the problems we have into Cloud Native ways of thinking about them. And I think that ends up being intensely powerful. It's, frankly, almost overwhelming because there's so much conceptually going on in this space that you want to be able to draw on for the palette for the things that you're painting. >> Yeah, I mean, it's your point earlier about, and you were kind of joking but serious. This is a mind melt, you got to buy in to the philosophy of this new era of... (Ed laughing) Yeah, just kind of buy into, the Cloud Native is a global platform. It is a fundamental new thing. It's not just a methodology, it's a new way. >> It's a new way of thinking about things. The C in Cloud Native does not stand for container. Container is the smallest possible chunk of this. If you just slap all your applications into containers and try and do a lift and shift, you're going to fall on your face really hard. >> John: In what areas? Just like, what? >> Well, I'll give you a really simple example. Let's say that I have an application that I'm running in vApps, right? And I've got my big database VM. I've got my big web front VM. So I pick them up, I containerize them, I drop them into Kubernetes. So I've got one replica of my database VM and one replica of my web front VM, and that's going to break sometime in the first 24 hours. Because I need to, basically, pick them up and say, "OK, I need a bunch of replicas that are dynamically coming up for all of these things. I need the services to wire mesh them together." So for whatever reason, I lose some number of my replicas, that everything comes back up and goes forward and we never even notice, right? In some sense, the ideal situation is, you have a major bug in your code, right? Let's say you have a piece of code that's leaking memory and it dies every 24 hours. You want, if you think about it right and you deploy it 'cause you don't know you have this bug, you won't even notice that you screwed up that bug because the infrastructure will protect you from it. But if you just try and lift and shift, you're not going to have a happy experience because it's not going to work the way you expect it to. >> And then monitoring tools are getting better, too, and so if you're coming in on the other side you get that. Well, and thanks so much for the commentary. Great, great summary of the event. Any surprises here for you? Any ah-ha moments or revelations or epiphanies or any kind of surprises, good or bad or ugly? >> One of the things I was very impressed with is, I'm very impressed with what you can do with no code. I don't know if you saw that keynote this morning. >> Lauren: With Kelsey. >> In response to Dan Kohn's point about all the sort of total attack surface area. Kelsey got on stage and did the no code project, which has perfect security for whatever it is that you deploy it for. The fact that you can get on code, do something like that, move an entire audience of thousands of people, that's impressive. You don't see speakers who do that very often. That was, I wouldn't say shocking, but very much a pleasant surprise. And it speaks very much to the code of the community. The keynotes today were some of the best I've ever seen. I am not a keynote person, I seldom attend them. The keynotes today were extremely well-done. They had good energy and they were relevant. The walking through of the evolution of the community in brief punctuated explanations of what's going on and why they're important, I've never seen it done better. >> Yeah, they were hitting their marks well. Well, great, thanks for coming on, Ed. Great to see you. >> Yep. >> Thank you, Ed. >> This is commentary from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE coverage of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, KubeCon 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney. Thanks for watching. Be right back. (electronic musical flourish)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018 Europe. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, my cohost this week. Our next guest Shiv Ramji, VP of Product at DigitalOcean, fast growing startup, now growing company. Congratulations, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you very much. >> So you guys got some hard news, you got product, Kubernetes product, and you guys just upgraded your status on CNCF. Let's jump into the product news real quick. What's the hard news? >> Yeah, so we just announced a Kubernetes product and service on our platform. And you know, we've had a lot of customers who've actually have been deploying Kubernetes on our platform, either themselves or through a managed provider. And a lot of customers, specifically businesses, have been asking us to provide native support for Kubernetes. So now this is native support for Kubernetes on the DigitalOcean platform. >> What does native support for customers mean specifically? Is it managing the workload down to, how, what level of granularity, I guess, is the question. Be specific about this support. >> Yeah, yeah. So essentially, typically developers who are deploying container workloads or Kubernetes workloads do this themselves. Now we make it very, very easy. So you can come into our platform and, within a few clicks, deploy a Kubernetes cluster with your typical integrations of monitoring or container registry and the Kubernetes dashboard. >> So you basically just select a couple features and they can go from there? It's just run a gun? >> It's just a few clicks and you are running. And the reason why we did that, and sort of the history of the company has really focused on removing friction for developers to get started. So we make it very, very easy from a product experience perspective, and also from a cost perspective. So we remove all the barriers for any team size to get started. And so that's why we've made the product very, very easy to use, very simple. And then we also plan to have a lot of tutorials around containers or containerizing an application and scaling in the microservices work. >> Lauren: That's great. >> Talk about the security aspect of it. It's been a big topic here. We were talking about it on our intro, Lauren and I, around, you know, that it's evolving in real time. Things are moving fast. Up front work needs to get done. How do your customers think about security in context of the Kubernetes offering? >> So we have a story for that. We are trying to essentially deploy some native integrations and some open source projects that help us do security scanning, so the goal is to essentially let our customers know of vulnerabilities that they may have based on the images that they are deploying. And you know, all of us are guilty of it. We will get a public container image and launch it, and then realize that there are some security flaws. So that's something we do want to address as we continue to roll out additional features throughout this year. >> I know we've interviewed you guys before, but I want you to just take a minute and explain, for the folks watching who might not know DigitalOcean, what you guys do, your value proposition, who you guys target, how you sell the product, what's the service, all that good stuff. Share a one minute update on what you guys do. >> So we are a New York based company that were founded in 2012 out of Techstars. And the value proposition is very simple in that we want to be the cloud platform for developers and their teams, so that they're focused on software that changes the world. And what that means is we take all the complexity in our product development process, essentially to make it very easy for a developer to go from concept or idea to production as fast as they can. Once they get there, we want to also enable them to scale reliably on our platform. And essentially, all of the features that we've launched have been driven by customer demand. So they tell us that, hey, we're scaling on your platform, we really need these additional features, and that's how we respond. So we're very developer-obsessed, and focus on that specific persona, and help them get to the cloud as quickly as possible. >> So you're solving the problem for the developer. Bait pain points are, what? >> So there are three. We think of learning as the first one, as a barrier to developers. So this is why we've built a library of tutorials. There are about 1400 plus tutorials. We get about three million unique visitors on our platform. And about 80% of our customers actually came from one of the tutorials. Right, so that's such a great source of >> Lauren: Documentation is so important. >> Documentation. So important. So that's our first one. The second one is building. This idea of let's remove all friction for you to go from zero, essentially an idea, to production as fast as possible. So there're two things we do there. One, we try to make the product very simple and easy to use. And two, we are very price competitive. So we have a very competitive price to performance ratio in the market, with the idea that, if you want to keep your total cost of operations as low as possible. And so, that's another reason why developers, teams, and also businesses are now, we are in their consideration set, because they're like, well developers love this product, and I can get a cost benefit. Why would I not do that? And then the last one is scaling, which is once you're growing your application, you're going to need ability to scale and support. And so we provide free support to all of our customers, regardless of the size of your workload or size of customer or business. And I think that's a very important value proposition for us. >> So who do you compete against? Like, who are a couple of your competitors? >> So, the best way to answer that is to see, so we go to our customers and see who they compare us with. And typically we are compared against AWS and Google. >> Lauren: Okay, okay. >> And so, they are the ones who will come to us and say, "Hey, we're about to launch an app, or we're considering moving our workloads, you know, here's what our setup looks like in Google or AWS. You know, can you provide us similar capabilities?" And a lot of the times tends to be, you know, our developers already love you. If you have this capabilities and features set, we would love to move our workloads. >> Well I think you've got a tremendous amount of active developers as well, correct? >> Yes, yes. >> So, and you're growing that exponentially. What is, kind of your growth look like, year over year? >> Yeah, so last year we signed the one millionth developer on our platform. There's essentially one million developers that have created an account on our platform. And we sometimes have developers who come in and out of our platforms, if you're done with your project, right, if you're a student. But we have about half a million active developers on our platform, and growing rapidly. And we also foster a community which is growing tremendously. So we've got about three and a half million active developers in our communities, reading articles, and going through Q&A, and posting very interesting projects. >> Those are some great numbers. I mean, they're up there with Salesforce growth. So that's tremendous. >> And also the other news is you're upgrading your membership. Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Talk about that dynamic, why? Size, did you fall into new bucket or you guys are increasing your participation? What's the news? >> Yeah, I mean, we were founded really on this idea of we believe in helping the community, and so free and open source software is what we've built our business on. And so, as we got active with Kubernetes ourselves, and we've been using Kubernetes for two years internally, so we have lots of lessons of our own. And as we were bringing this product to market, it was only the right, it was the right time for us to really upgrade our membership to gold with the CNCF, with the goal of getting to their platinum level where we can contribute to standards and bodies and really influence the evolution of all the tooling around containers and microservices. So, it was the right, the timing was right, and it's the right evolution of us continuing to support the community. >> Making some good profit, contribute that, and help out CNCF. >> Shiven: Absolutely. >> As the VP of Product, you have the keys to the kingdom as they say, in the product management world. (laughing) You got to balance engineering management with product, and you got to look to the market for the, you know, the needs of the customers, and of course they're helping you. Big time developers aren't afraid to share their opinion of what they need. >> Shiven: Never. >> Pain points, that's a good, good, good, good job there. What is on the road map for you? What's next? How are you looking at short, mid, long-term evolution of DigitalOcean's product strategy? >> Yeah, so I'll break it down in three different areas. The first part is really having a core complete feature set for a modern application that's being built in the cloud. So this is where, over the last 12 months, we've developed, we've deployed, developed and deployed load balancers, cloud firewalls, object storage, block storage, a new control panel experience, and a bunch of networking features that we have released. And so, we have some new features coming this year, which allow you to do, you know, the VPC feature, specifically, that allows businesses to have private networking and peering. That's been a top requested feature, so that's something that's going to come later this year to round out our core platform. And then, beyond that, we have two or three different things that we're doing. So the first category is just having a better developer experience. So this is everything from the experience you have when you are launching any cloud resource, whether it's for a control panel, or API, or CLI. So, continue to make that frictionless. So we have a few updates coming there to our control panel, improvements to our API, and adding a bunch of integrations so that, if you're using different products to manage your cloud infrastructure, we make that very, very easy. The second thing is marketplaces. So, a lot of, as you know, lots of other providers have marketplaces and different versions of marketplaces. A lot of our customers and vendors are now coming to us saying, "You have a really big audience and customer base. We really want to integrate our products so we can make it easy for them to spin up those resources." So marketplaces is the second large category that we're working on later this year. We'll have a lot of updates on that. And the third one is tied to developer experience, but it's essentially the Kubernetes product that we're launching. We also have plans to enable a marketplace-like integrations, and a lot of the CICD integrations, so that once you're up and running with your cluster, you got to get your CICD pipelines and tooling working, so that's an area. >> I want to ask you about multicloud, and where you guys are at with multicloud, and kind of connecting to the other cloud providers that are competitors, but, you know, your users are going to want to use as well as your solution. >> Yeah, this is where I think Kubernetes fits really, really well with the multicloud story for us, which is why, sort of, why now for us. If your workloads are in Kubernetes, and this is why we are going to support all of the latest community versions that are available. If your workloads are in Kubernetes, it becomes very easy for you to move those over to our platform, and so. I think we're going to see a combination of sometimes customers will have split workloads, sometimes they'll run different types of workloads in our platform, and so I think Kubernetes really opens up that possibility >> Lauren: That's great. To do that. There's still some more tooling to be done, but that's essentially where we're at. >> How many employees you guys have now? What's the number? >> We are roughly north of 400. So still very small. >> Well, congratulations. You guys are a growing company. Great to have you on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing the news. >> Thank you very much. >> Absolutely. >> Great job. DigitalOcean. You know, hot startup, growing rapidly, I'm sure they're hiring like crazy. >> We are. >> So go check 'em out. The news here at KubeCon is positive industry. Rising tide floats all boats. That's a philosophy we have seen on theCUBE and great ecosystems, of course that's happening here. More live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark after this short break. Stay with us. (upbeat music)

>> Presenter: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back everyone, we're live here with the Cube in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018 Europe, via the CFCF Cloud Native Computing foundation, part of the Linux foundation. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here this week. And up next to Yaron Haviv, the founder, and CTO of Iguazio, and Doug Davis, who is the co-chair of the serverless working group, And the CNCF, as well as a developer advocate for IBM, IBM cloud. Great to see you welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for coming in. So love the serverless work, and want to dig into that with a bunch of questions. So, super important trend as we see in that success functions, and all the good stuff that's going on, programmable infrastructure. So I want to dig into that. But first, Yaron, I want to get into what's going on with the business, what's new with you? Iguazio, I saw you're on the sponsorship list here, you're doing a lot of work. You have some news as well. What's going on at KubeCon, Europe for you. >> Yeah, so we're expanding on the business side very nicely, taking more momentum, and this strength towards edge analytics, edge cloud, people starting to understand that central cloud is not the only way to build clouds. We're also progressing nicely on our serverless framework, called Nuclio. It just was published, maybe eight months ago, already made 2000 stars in GitHub, you know, users. We've got some quotes, NPR's around production version of that, including strong partnership with Acer, on being able to run the same functions in Acer, and the cloud in a joint development effort, as well as customers actually using it to build real-time analytics use case in development in the cloud, and deployment in different locations. >> Our audience knows you well, you've been on the cube many times. You also write for us, as well as other blogs with your opinion pieces and commentary. It's always edgy, and strong, and right on the money, I want to ask you your thoughts on serverless, because you were there from day one, I remember the conversation. It wasn't called serverless, we were talking about resource pools and looking at cloud computing, pontificating about, potentially, what Kubernetes and orchestration was going to look like. It's happening. So, are you happy with the progress of the industry, performance of the tech stack? What's your thoughts on serverless today, state of the union? What's your opinion? >> I think it's progressing nicely. I think many people call everything almost, serverless now. You have serverless data bases, you have serverless everything. I think serverless will become, more and more, a feature of a platform, not necessarily a thing. But, like Salesforce will have serverless functions, Wix will have serverless functions, for their own stuff. Obviously cloud platforms, analytic platforms, et cetera. So there'll be, maybe a family of generic ones, and a family of platform specific, that are more use case oriented. >> Does that connect with your business plan for Iguazio? Are you evolving with it? How are you navigating those waters on the adoption side. >> So, you know, I'm sort of trying to be inclusive, I think there's room for more than one serverless framework. There's also OpenWhisk, and Openfazzer, and a few of those. Our focus is mainly real-time analytics, and high performance in data processing. Yes, we can also do other things, but maybe we won't invest too much in some features that are more front-end oriented, or stuff like that. >> John: So you're staying focused on the core. >> Yes, on the other hand, other people to deal with front-end, we'll focus on HTTP, and Blue Logic, and things like that. Most of the frameworks don't have the same capabilities of Nuclio, like real-time stream distribution, real-time, low latencies, all that stuff. So, I think there's room for multiple frameworks, and that's also part of the relationship with Acer. Acer have their own product, which is very good with integration with the Acer stack, and the Acer components. On the other hand there is real-time analytics, in IOT Nuclio is stronger, So, there interest is, rather than saying, no we'll choose just one horse, why won't we enable the market, and allow the people the choice in solution. >> That's great. On IBM's side, Doug I want to get your thoughts on the working group, as well as IBM. You guys have done a lot of open source, IBM well known in the Linux history books, as we know. And now very active again, continuing that mission, congratulations, and thanks for doing that. But the serverless working group. This is a broader scope now, can you just give us some color on the commentary around how that's evolving, because you guys have a lot of blue chip customers. Cloud Foundry just did a survey, I was talking to Abby Kearns yesterday, about the results came back, mainstream tech, not middle of the country, but they heard about Kubenettis like, what's kubenettis? So you have people going, Okay, I've got a job to do, but now kubenettis has arrived, this is a key part of a micro-services focus. >> Right. Yeah, and so the way the serverless group got started was, about a year ago the CNCF TOC, technical oversight committee, decided serverless is kind of a new technology, we want to figure out what's going on in that space, and so they started up a working group. And our job wasn't to really decide what to do about it yet, it was to sort of give us the landscape of what's going on out there, what are people doing? What does serverless even mean, relative to function of the service, or even the other as's, and stuff like that What does a serverless framework generally look like? What do people use it for? Use cases, and stuff like that. And then at the end of that we produced a white paper with our results, as well as a landscape spreadsheet, to say all of the various technologies out there in that space, who's doing what. Without trying to pick winners, just saying what's there. And then we ended with a set of recommendations in terms of what possible next steps the CNCF could do in this space, with an eye towards interoperability building more than anything else, because that's what, really, we care about. We don't want vendor lock in and all the other good stuff. And so we had a set of recommendations, and one of the main ones was, two main things, one was function signatures was a very popular one, but we decided to focus on eventing first, because we thought that might be an easier fruit to pick off the tree first. And so we were going to focus on the formats, or meta data of an event, as it transfers between systems. And so from the service working group we create a cloud events, sort of little sub-group within our working group, to focus on creating a specification around what the meta-data around an event would look like, just so we can get some commonality. That way, at least the infrastructure between the two systems can transfer the events back and forth, much in the same way HTTP layer, doesn't have to understand the body of the message, but can look at common headers, and know how to route it properly. Same kind of thing with eventing. And again, this is all about trying to get interoperability, and portability for applications, and users more than anybody else. And so that's kind of where our focus has been on. How can we help the end user not get locked into one platform, not get locked into one solution, and make their life easier overall. >> Great. Where are you now with that? Is it running? Is it-- >> Overall done. No. >> Oh you're complete, yeah (laughs) >> Doug: But we did that last week. No, actually as of last week though, we just released our first version, 0.1. It's a very, very basic thing, and people might look at it and say, what's the big deal? But even with that simple little thing we've been able to get some level of interoperability between the various platforms. And if people actually join, when is it? Friday 11 o'clock? >> Yaron: Yeah. >> We have a session where someone's going to demonstrate interoperability between, oh gosh, IBM, you guys, Microsoft. >> Google. >> Dameware, Google. All the various companies involved in this thing. >> Love it, that's great. >> Huawei. >> Yeah. They're all going to be either sending or receiving events, using the cloud event format, to prove interoperability around the specification. So we're just at 0.1, we have some way to go, but that first step was huge just to get agreement, and everybody to the table to agree. So it's been really fun >> And it wasn't easy, it wasn't easy. And he's the peacemaker in the group. (laughs) I'm the troublemaker, he's the peacemaker. >> We have a lot of vocal people in the group, yes. (laughs) >> We're not pointing at anyone. >> No, never. >> Important first step obviously, commonality, and having some sort of standardization kind of thinking. >> Doug: Yes. >> Yaron: Don't use the standard word. There are people allergic to that. >> Well yeah, the standard bodies and what not, but in terms of the community work going on, this is super important. What's the impact of that? Obviously it's a small step, but a big step, right? So, what's it going to impact? What's next, what's coming next now that you've got the meta-data, and you've got the interoperability, what's next? >> Well, obviously we need to finish it up, because 0.1 is obviously just the first step. As I said, I think beyond that people are really itching to do function signatures. Because I think if you can get the event format coming in to be somewhat similar, and then you can get portability of moving your function from one platform to another, with hopefully minimal changes from a function signature point of view, you're a long way there towards getting portability for people. And I think that's probably the next step we're going to be looking at. >> What's the technical case from a commercial entity like yourself, who's in business to make money, obviously you have a business to run. As you build out your architecture, where is this going to be applied for you? What's the impact of this project to your product? >> So beyond my strong religion around open APIs, and you've seen the blogs I've written about it, our interest is twofold. First, we're not the market leader, Amazon is the market leader, et cetera. So if we have a better technology, and things are standard, it's easier for customers to move. Second, is we believe in interoperability, closer to the data, closer to where the processing, especially when 5G is going to evolve, and we're going to see bottlenecks between metro locations. Our sales is, go develop in the cloud, and then push it, you know the diesel twin model. This is exactly what we're demonstrating with Acer. You could develop at Acer, our Nuclio functions and deploy in a factory. So it may not be the same platform, it may not be the same serverless framework. So having the ability to run the same code in different frameworks or different platforms is very important. >> And IBM, you're doing a lot of work. OpenWhisk has been something that's gotten a lot of press and notoriety. What's up with you guys and open source? Obviously we see you guys out there doing a lot of studies and a lot content, a lot of coding. What's new over on the IBM side of the house with serverless? >> From my point of view, I think probably the biggest thing is, we're leading the charge in putting OpenWhisk to run on top of Kubernetes. And I think what's interesting about that is we're going to see, probably, some changes to Kubernetes need to be made to get the better performance that we need. Because when OpenWhisk runs vanilla on top of, say run C, or the docker stuff, we have a lot more freedom there. Pausing containers, stuff like that. Stuff you can't do in Kubernetes. We're probably going to see some more pressure on Kubernetes to add some more features, to get the kind of performance numbers we need going forward. >> And scale too, is important to understand. I was just talking about the keynotes earlier with another guest, and Cern is up there. They have a thousand nodes, it's not massive numbers yet, at scale, I mean Amazon are the big clouds, you guys have clouds. You've got a lot of nodes, so it's a lot more scale going on in the cloud as Kubernetes starts to get it's footing. >> Doug: Yep. >> How do you explain Kubernetes, how do both of you guys explain Kubernetes to the IT transformation group out there, that's going cloud operations. >> So what we've seen, because we're also selling an appliance, a full integrated solution, people, in the enterprise, they don't necessarily want to understand low level of Kubernetes. And actually serverless is a nice way for doing that. If you look at the new Nuclio dashboard, you just go, you write some code, you click deploy, it auto scales, you don't need to think about the underlying cube cut whole, the underlying networking. It's all done there for you. And I think, what you see in the trend in the industry, some people call it serverless, some people call it other things, is more and more abstractions, where users will deploy code, will deploy containers, and some frameworks underneath will deal with the high availability, elasticity, all that. I think that's what enterprise customers are looking for. Not everyone is eBay, and Google, and Netflix. >> John: Your thoughts? >> What I think is interesting, I agree with what you said, but I think it's interesting is you actually have a wider range of people, right. You have some people who think Kubernetes, as you said, nice abstraction layer, you don't have to get into the nitty gritty if you don't need to. But Kubernetes does allow you to get under the covers and twiddle those lower level bits if you actually need to. I think that's one of the things that. People who start out with Docker, they like it, it's so simple to use, and it's wonderful, and they love it. But they found it a little bit limiting, because it was too opinionated, or it didn't give you access to things under the covers. Kubernetes, I think, is trying to find that right balance between the two, and I think for the most part they kind of hit it. There's a little bit more of a learning, because it's not quite as user friendly as Docker is. But once you get over that learning hump, all the flexibility it gives you, people seem to really, really, like that. >> What are some of the things that people do under the covers, you mentioned some tweaks here and there. Is it policy based stuff? What's happening under the covers that Kubernetes getting that their groove swing on now. >> There is something called custom resource definition. So for example, when we deploy a Nulio, maybe OpenWhisk or others have it as well. It's essentially, Nuclio becomes another resource that you can actually view when you're running the Kubernetes CLI, or all the other things that manage it's liveliness, et cetera. So those are services that you get for free as a platform. But if you want your function to keep being alive you need to code your functions into the liveliness API, the thing that monitors it staying alive. So you're getting a generic service, but you need to work with it. >> Yeah, actually I'd go one step further with that and abstract it a little. Because obviously Kubernetes has a lot of knobs you can turn, a lot more than other platforms, like Docker has. But I think, for me the biggest benefit of Kubernetes is the plugability. Custom resource definitions, one of them. Ripping out schedulers, or whatever controllers you want, and replace it with your own. That kind of flexibility to say, I don't have to leave the entire Kubernetes world just to run my own scheduler, or write the infrastructure around it, I can plug in my own. That's the kind of flexibility people seem to really, really like. That way they don't feel locked in, they can still play with part of the ecosystem, but get the flexibility and customization they need. >> Awesome, great commentary there. I want to get your thoughts on KubeCon 2018 Europe, for CNCF. Continuing to see growth in CNCF, fantastic to see. As the boat gets full of people, you've got to be the peacemaker if you're co-chair. As people want to start getting their claws into the projects, this imbalance on the community side, are you guys happy with the direction, obviously the success, and the visibility is increased. What's your take on the show here? What are you guys doing? What's going on around the event for you guys. >> So it only started today, but my impression, comparing it with the previous show in the U.S. There are a lot more decision makers here. I don't know if it's the European culture of not funding every student to every show, or just the maturity of the ecosystem. But that's something I've noticed, the discussions I had with decision makers. and they're also not everyone, like in the U.S.A. everyone wants to build it their own way. People here think about operationalizing solutions, so sometimes you need to take something that someone else already built and test. >> And what's the conversations like, that you're having? Is it architecture? Is it deploying production workloads? >> So for us it's a lot about use cases, because we're doing things in a very different way. We're doing some nice demos on how, we're running real-time analytics with the sample database as the core, and we're showing how it's equivalent to another solution that they may build. And that immediately clicks. The other aspect is really, there is so much technology, but we need someone to wrap it up for us as a package solution. >> Doug, your thoughts. First of all I love your shirt, it says code with all the words in the community. >> Doug: Yeah, it's one of my favorite shirts. I like it. >> Love that shirt. I'm just looking at it like, all these questions are popping in my head. What's your plan at the show here? What's your goal, what are you guys doing, what conversations are you hearing in the hallways? >> Well, obviously being from IBM, we just promote IBM as much as we can. But beyond that, really talk about interoperability around what we're doing here, and make sure people understand that we're not here to necessarily sell our products, which we obviously want to do. We want to make sure that we do it in a way that gives people choice. And that's why we have the serverless working group, the cloud events spec. It's all about giving everybody the choice to move from one platform to another, to get their job done. As much as we want people to buy our stuff, if the customer isn't happy in getting what they need, then we're all going to lose. >> And these projects are super important to get the solidarity around these, quote, standards. >> And just to follow on your previous question about the conference, and stuff that we'd like. Obviously it's great that it's growing so much, but what I really like about this conference, beyond some other ones that I've seen is, a lot of the other ones tend to have more marketing flair to them. And obviously there's a little bit of that here, people are promoting their stuff, but I love the fact that most of the stuff that I'm doing here aren't in the sessions. Because the sessions are great and interesting, but it's the hallway chatter, and interacting with people face to face, and not just to meet them, to actually have real technical, deep discussion with them, here at the conference, because everybody's here you can do that much better face to face than you can over a Zoom call, or something else. The productivity from that level is just astronomical, I love it. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And one thing I would add, just my observation, interviews in the hallways, is that we're living, and we talk about this on the Cube all the time, a modern software architectures here. And it's got some visibility around it, it's not filled in yet, but I think there's clear visibility. Cloud, micro-service, interoperability, portability, pretty clear. And I think people are engaged, people are excited. So you have the progressive new guard coming in, on board. Great job. Thanks for coming on the cube, we appreciate that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Iguazio and IBM, here on the Cube, breaking down KubeCon 2018 Europe. More live coverage, stay with us, we'll be right back after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Live in Copenhagen, Denmark, of KubeCon 2018 Europe. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, my cohost. Exciting startup news here. Obviously, it's a growing ecosystem, all the big names are in it, but, great ecosystem of startups. One launching here, we have Bassam Tabbara, who's the founder and CEO of Upbound, here on theCUBE. Website is going to go live in a few hours. We're here for a quick preview. Thanks for joining theCUBE today. Appreciate it. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> So, you got a company. No one knows about it. (Bassam laughing) Now they're going to hear about it. What are you guys doing? What is Upbound about? And what are you doing? >> So Upbound is going after the problem of multi-cloud. So the way to think about it is that, you know, we're seeing now the ubiquity of Kubernetes, and if you think about what Kubernetes has done, it has solved the problem of taking many machines and making them into one, and doing all the scheduling and management and becoming the operating system of a cluster, right? Upbound is the next level up. Upbound is essentially taking multiple clusters and solving a similar set of problems around running distributed systems, distributed services, global services across clusters. It was really interesting to hear CERN this morning talking about how their managing 210 clusters and you think about 210 clusters, if you would talk about 210 machines, you'd be like, "Wow, that's a lot of machines", right? This is 210 clusters, and so a similar set of problems exist at a higher level, and that's the focus of Upbound. >> So, you guys are announcing a financing, $9 million from an investment Series A financing. Google Ventures as a lead and a variety of industry super-reputable investors. What was the value proposition pitch? What got Google Ventures excited? What was the core value, technology, business model? Give us the deck. >> My understanding of their investment thesis, and it's hard to claim that you always understand this. Essentially, the next level of infrastructure problem is essentially around multi-cloud and enterprises are managing many clusters today, many different cloud environments, whether it's across regions of a public cloud vendor or it's across public cloud vendors or across hybrid boundaries, on premise verse private cloud versus public cloud. It's become a challenge to run things across clusters and there's a lot of interesting scenarios to be solved at that level. That was the premise of the investment. >> John: So, are you guys a management software piece? Are you guys technology? What's the product? >> We're essentially building a service that helps companies run across cloud environments. And it's based on Kubernetes, 'cause Kubernetes is an amazing platform to build on top of, and we've learned that through our investment in Rook. You know, it's a great extension points and awesome community to be working with, We're offering a service for multi-cloud. >> Right, is it going to be, some shape of it, going to be open source or what are you looking at in particular? >> Yeah, obviously there'll be parts of it that are open source. We're a big open-source company. The team that's in Upbound, that's actually the team that's behind Rook, and Rook is a CNCF project now and all open source, obviously. And so, yeah, we're definitely an open-source player. >> Good. >> So you're exposed to the storage challenges with Rook and all the future kind of architecture. We just had Adrian Cockcroft on. we were both high fiving each other and celebrating that microservices is going to be a modern era. >> Bassam: Yes. >> How do you guys solve that problem? What is it going to be, the buyer going to be in a cloud architect? Is it going to be a storage person? Is it an ops person? Who's the target buyer of your service? Or user of your service? >> Well essentially people, DevOps people, that are managing multiple clusters today and understand the challenges around managing multiple clusters, no normalization of policies, separate users, separate user management, observability. All those things come up with a strategist, and of course, let's not forget, stateful workloads and managing state across environments is, I'd say, probably one of the harder problems. So, you know, the buyer is essentially somebody in DevOps, and then obviously, the CTO, CIO level gets involved at some point, but it's a draw. >> When you guys were forming the company. Obviously, with the Rook project, you were exposed to some of the pain points, you mentioned a few of them. What was the one pain point that jumped out at you the most and you said, "Hey, we can build a company around this"? >> The fact that most enterprises are now managing multiple cloud environments and they are completely independent. Anything that they try to normalize or do across them is... There's a human involved, or there's some homegrown script involved to actually run across clusters. And honestly, that's the same problem that people are trying to solve across machines, right? And that led to some, you know, the work that's happening around orchestration, Kubernetes, and others. It's only logical that we move up a level and solve similar set of problems. >> Yeah, I have a question about your service. Just, along the lines of, There are a lot of people coming into this market with, "We've got this integration solution that is multi-cloud," or, "We have this kind of API platform that can solve "for multi-cloud and run applications "cross multiple cloud platforms." >> Right. >> What is your differentiator? >> Yeah, so I mean, multi-cloud has become a thing now, as you've observed. I think the power of what we're doing is that we're building a control plane based on Kubernetes and the great work that's happening in the Kubernetes space around multi-cluster and federation and everything else, and offering a set of services that layer on top of that that solve some critical problems across clouds, including stateful workloads and migration portability across clouds. And essentially, inherently building this on the Kubernetes platform and our experience with that and our experience with the community around Kubernetes, I think is differentiated. >> So that leads me to our next question. So your pricing model, you said that you were going to be open source. So is that control plane going to be open source and then some services are going to be bucketed into-- >> Yeah, it's probably too early for us to talk about the pricing model, but think of it as a service a manage service for multi-cloud. >> Great. >> You can imagine that... Open source is actually quite compatible with a service play. >> Yes it is. >> And $9 million, that's a good chunk of cash. Congratulations. Use of funds? Obviously, hiring out of the gate? What's your priorities on the use of funds on the first round of funding? >> So we're going to accelerate hiring, we're going to accelerate delivering the service, and that's, you know, this is the fun part of a startup. (John laughing) This is my second one. It's the next 18 months is all building and growing and doing product. >> John: And what's your five-year pro-forma revenue projection? (laughing) You made it up on 30C. >> Let me pull up my spreadsheet. (hosts laughing) >> I love those VC slides, "Yeah, we're makin up year five." No, but you want to have some growth, so the trend is your friend. Here, it's multi-cloud, >> That's right. >> And obviously the growth of microservices. Obviously, right. >> That's right. >> Anything else out there that's on your mind observationally, looking at the market? As you start coming, certainly you're doing a lot of due diligence on the market. What are your risk factors? How you thinking about it? What are you looking at closely? How are you studying some of the trend data? >> I mean at some level, the way to think about this is Cloud Native is still at its infancy, right, despite all the amazing momentum that's building around it. I think, you know at some level, we use the term Cloud Native but it's really just cloud computing. I think the adoption cycle is going to be interesting, so that's something that I think about a lot. You know, how long will people kind of make transformative changes to what they're doing? But, I believe the power of open source and the community is that people are. I mean look at this conference. A lot of people are here, including-- >> No doubt open source is a good bet. >> That's right. >> I think the thing that we're watching, love to get your reaction to, and Lauren, you too, is that Stu Miniman, my cohost. He's not here, he's at the Dell EMC World event. We talk about this all the time around what's the migration going to look like from on-prem to cloud? Meaning, how's the on-prem is transferring to cloud ops? >> That's right. >> Right? So okay, perfect for your case, I think. What's the ratio, what's hybrid cloud going to look like when you have a true private cloud, true cloud environment on premise? >> Yeah. >> 'Cause this speaks to the multi-cloud trend because if I can have an on-premise operation, I can make-- >> Very much. >> Well you have to look at the applications too. I mean, that's critical because you've got these monolithic applications that have to be essentially changed and ported into different environments to become multi-cloud. There's heavy lifting there. >> Yeah, I think the interesting thing about what you're describing here is that it used to be that if you're running on premise you're using a completely different stack from say what you're running in public cloud, right? And so, not only was the choice about where you're hosting your compute and your networking and storage, but it was also a choice of stacks, right? Open stack or whatever you're running on premise, and then there was Amazon or others, right? What is happening now is that we're actually normalizing on stacks. So this whole movement around Kubernetes is essentially a way to say that there is now a common stack, regardless of where you're actually being deployed, right? The store is not always there and that's, but it'll get there, right? At some level, it gives people more choices about where they want to host, and in fact, if... Portability becomes more interesting 'cause you could move in and out of clouds, right? There are costs to doing that. Data gravity is a thing, but-- >> John: The containers are helpful. >> Containers are helpful, but, you know, that Amazon truck goes in one direction. (John chuckling) It is interesting to think about that. But at least it becomes possible for people to think about how to manage their infrastructure and how to manage their services across clouds. And, end result is it'll have more choices. >> Well, I think this community, you talked about on our intro today about portability is really what this community cares a lot about. >> Bassam: Very much. >> Choice and non-lock-in. >> Very much. It's amazing how many companies that we talk to that actually have a, like a strategies, you know, CTO, CIO-level down, around not getting locked in to any vendor. Yet, they are not able to fulfill that. >> Yeah, it's hard to talk about lock in when you actually don't even know what Cloud Native is. So, it's interesting discussion, and Adrian Cockcroft was just on from Amazon, and he and I were talking with Lauren about, that's a developer organization and management discussion. >> Yeah. >> First. >> Bassam: That's right. >> So you can't, you don't know what it is? How do you know what-- (Bassam laughing) >> Well, there's... >> A lock in looks like? You can't play chess if you don't know what checkmate looks like. >> Yeah, but the good news is that developers are high up on that food chain now and they're able to actually make these buy decisions. So I think that's going to be critical. >> Well congratulations on the financing. >> Bassam: Thank you. >> Love the company name, Upbound? >> Yes. >> Upbound. >> Bassam: Essentially going above the clouds. >> Above the clouds. >> Like it. >> Congratulations. Looking forward to tracking the progress. And great to have you on theCUBE. $9 million dollars in fresh financing. Upbound just scored a great deal for multi-cloud. Again, that's a great trend. Congratulations. More CUBE coverage here in a moment. Thanks for watching. Be right back, stay with us.

>> Announcer.: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, and welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018 in Europe, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Dirk Hohndel, Vice President, Chief Open Source Officer for VMware. Great to see you. CUBE alumni, welcome back. >> Thank you, good to be here. >> So you had a keynote, smashing success today on stage, about open source, all five minutes of it, congratulations. (laughing) Take a minute to explain, I have some specific questions on VMWare, office of the CTO, how you guys are working on some really interesting things. But first, take a minute to explain, the VMware approach to open source that you're leading. What's the architecture of it, how is it organized, can you take a minute to explain-- >> Sure. >> The VMware? >> So we use open source components in literally every single one of our products, and we have a structure where each of the BUs is engaged in open source in the components that they're using, in projects that are related to the business, and they have a central organization that sits in the office of the CTO that I run, so the open source program office, which has much more of a focus of pure open source work. Focused on up stream, focus on the problems that the community sees much more than something that is product driven. I also own the whole compliance work that everyone needs to do to make sure that you follow the licenses and all that. But, fundamentally the balance between having the central organization that has maybe the center of expertise and has people who do open source and nothing but open source, and on the other hand bringing that expertise into the BU. Bring it closer to the products, and engaging across the company. We have more than 7,000 software engineers across the company and we want every single one of them to be mindful and understanding of how open source works, and how we are engaged in that space. >> And how many people, just some stats, can you share, by the numbers, how many people are on the teams, R&D, there's also in the CTO office. How many folks are on your team roughly speaking? >> So I have currently, I want to say, this is quick, 20 some odd people under me, but across the company it's a lot more. There are several hundred people who are, in their daily work engaged with open source all the time. >> That's great. >> So your team is centralized in the business units. Go ahead. >> No, that's great. I was going to say, what is it look like for people that want to contribute code that aren't on your team? Is there a process that's pretty easy to go through? Or can they just put it on GitHub? We would all like that but. >> Yeah so, we have an internal tool that we've developed they simply can request to contribute to an existing project and it goes through a very quick review and depending on the topic, this is typically a two day turnaround time, where they get approval from the BU VP and from me. And if you want to open source a project, so if you have something internal that you've done, that you want to bring out into the community, it's little more complicated with naming, and branding and what not. A lot more people need to nod basically, but it still takes usually a couple of weeks-- >> Yeah. >> And it goes through. But it's an automated process, it's driven by a PM out of my organization. >> That's great. >> And it tries to make it really, really easy. One of my big goals joining VMware was to remove friction out of this process, and to encourage people to engage with the projects that are out there, but also for us to bring software into the open that we've developed, for example internal tools, and make them useful for other people. >> Definitely, I think that's great. >> You mentioned open source models about people, can you elaborate on that because I think this is an important point, we were talking before we came on, about that role of people. >> Well, so open source is... People think of this as a software development methodology, and it is, but fundamentally it's a social phenomenon. It's this experiment of saying the way we do our work is based on relationships. It's based on trust. So I trust you that you've reviewed this code and I take that code that you've reviewed. I know that you are the expert in this area so if I make changes in this area I'll send them to you and ask for your review. It's all about relationships. And these relationships are between people, not between companies. So in so many ways, the role travels with the person, and not with the company. And we have seen this in many cases, where people move from company to company, but the work, their influence, the role comes with them. So it's very much empowering for the engineers. But it's also from a purely human perspective, an engagement where, it's not just about the code that you write, but it's about how you treat people. How you engage with them. This is why conferences like this are so wonderful. There are 4,000 people here, 4,500 people here, and you meet people whom, with whom you've been emailing for years. And this social aspect of this for an introvert like myself, is at the same time a little scary, but also it's super exciting because it is people who are driving this industry. >> John: The face to face connections really make a difference. >> I think it's the community. I mean the community always comes first, I think. I will say this, you build a community, you don't launch one, and I think that's absolutely critical. And I think, can you talk about some of the changes in mentality that you're working with across VMware right now with getting that community first sort of thing moving? >> Well, so, I mean, VMware is a very engineering centric organization. We are driven, we're founded by engineers and driven by engineers, I mean Pat Gelsinger our CEO was an engineer, and so the underlying ethos of contribution and of trying to fix problems and if you see something you go and fix it, that is something that has always been there at VMware, but what I've been trying to bring in to VMware is much more of an up-stream focus. An understanding of, it's not just important that you understand the technology well and you use it well, but also that you contribute back. And that you are seen as playing a big role in this industry. And if you look at the impact that VMware has had in the broader open source community, and how we have shifted our approach to being part of this over the last two years, I think it's been extremely successful. And you can see this with our footprint here, how many talks we have here, and how much presence we have here. I think there's 70 VMware employees at KubeCon this year. >> That's great. >> It's now cultural, it's a Tier One, I'll say Tier One role, not Tier Two when we were growing up in the industry, but part of the business software define, infrastructure, software is taking over the world as Mark Andress said is happening. Open source is there powering it. So I have to ask you the question, that would be on my mind if I'm thinking about going all in as a company, if I'm an enterprise. Hey, you know what, I like this approach. I'm going to go all in. Complete commitment. What's the best practice, what's your advice, because this is something people are talking about doing not just putting a toe in the water going all in and committing to an open source business model with their company. What's your advice for shepherding that process, cultural ethos. What's your take? >> It starts with language. It starts with how you talk about what you're doing. I hear a lot of people saying things like, "Oh, I consume open source," well it bugs me because you consume a commodity. You consume electricity, you don't care where it comes from it's just a plug in the wall. Whatever, right? Open source is always around, about the people. It's always about how do people work. How do they think about security, about releases, about maintenance? What's their work flow? And you can't just consume an open source component, you need to engage with them, you need to understand how their work affects your work. And so my recommendation is always, start with your own language. Start with the approach that you're taking when you're talking about all this. And then figure out, where are you using it, how are you using it, what are the changes that you've made to the components that you're using? How about contributing those changes back? It's a very simple first step to engage. And it's actually a step that makes total business sense because if you have your private branches, your private patches, the next time the upstream project goes through a new release, you need to port these changes, that costs money. So it's actually cheaper to simply contribute them back and have them maintained by the project. And you can use upstream, or you have a minimum set of small adjustments that don't make sense to return to the community. And this is really how you get your toe into the water. Because now you're not just a user of this, you're engaged, you're a contributor. >> You're operationalizing your business. >> Yes, you are, and then the next step is thinking about what of my internal tool sets that maybe are not my core product, but are the things that we build to build the product as part of our workflow. What of those could be used for the product community? So at VMware, for example, we built a software design system, it's called Clarity, and you can use it to create angular-based JavaScript UIs. So we use this for all of our products. We made this tool an open source tool and it's massively successful project, has weekly releases, has a ton of users, a very very active community. And it's one of those cases where you take something that isn't the core of your business, but you are earning your chops in the community. And take it one step at a time and broaden-- >> John: That's the trust relationship you're building? >> That is very much this trust relationship. And it's this track record that you're building of not only doing something, oh here's this old product and I'll open source it and then I walk away. So we call this dump and run right? You throw it over the wall, it's now open source and then you say, customer you're now on your own because it's now open source. >> It's abandoned no one's paying attention. >> Yeah that's a terrible model, but a very good model is one where you think about creating these relationships and creating a track record of being there every week, looking at the bug reports, looking at the issues, looking at the pull requests, and engaging with the people out there. And the value that this creates, the amount of value that you're getting from your outside contributor, very quickly outweighs the additional cost that it takes to get this IP clean and released and all that. >> And then there is documentation and documentation is a tremendous amount of heavy lifting on the inside of a company. But if you can spread it over an open source product that you have, it's great. And it's a really good way for people to start out in open source, I find. >> And you just said open source product, so this one of those things-- >> Project. >> Where, yeah. This is something that I think is where we come back to language being so important. I always talk to the folks internally about this distinction. What is the open source project? What is it, what the community does, what lives on GitHub or what lives in the public side of this? And then what is your product that is based on this project? And in your thinking always keep these two separate. Understand that everything that happens in the project is what is publicly available and what is done in conjunction with your community. >> John: With the team. >> Versus your product which focuses on how does the customer use this. Because open source projects, in and of themselves, are typically built by developers for developers. And the end user has actually different needs. And this is where the business model come in and that's kind of closing the question that you just asked, because the value that the company is providing this space is the understanding of the customer needs. And is the ability to take something that is creating enormous and impressive innovation, which is the community, and taking this to a place where then someone can use it in production. Where it's scales, where it's secure, where it has Day-One and Day-Two operationalization, where it has strong documentation. There is a support number you can call. All these things that a customer is-- >> John: Needs. >> Needs and that an open source project by themselves is unlikely to create. >> It's like putting money in the bank. You can't just take money out of the bank. You've got to deposit good will. The give-get is part of that project and you're saying make the product focus on the customer problems. >> Dirk: Absolutely. >> My question is are you talking kind of about a services wrapper that you put around it and maybe a couple of additional features? In part, or what are you actually kind of, just to get to the crux of it. >> So there are many different ways, many different business models around open source. For us, we are still an enterprise software company. So open source generally provides components of what we do. It may be the API that the customer is asking for. So today, Kubernetes is a set of APIs a lot of people want to use as their way to provide a container service for the orchestration, right? But what is the underlying infrastructure? How do you generate a persistent storage? A flexible networking infrastructure that can grow and shrink as your work loads grow and shrink? How do you manage your individual nodes? How do you deal with internal billings so that you can bill your data center time to your departments? And all these operational aspects are things that we're trying to solve with our products. But we offer to the customer an open source based API. So that's where our business value lies fundamentally. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Communities are a concept that's premised on create value before you capture it. And I think what you're saying is, if you have a project, you better bring something to the table, not just distract. It's a taker. >> Yes. >> If you're just taking all the time, it's not a good trust relationship building, that's what I hear you saying. >> And you will also not be successful because your customer needs, as your customers are coming to you and they're running into issues, you need to be able to address those issues. Which means you need to be productive part of that community. You need to have the in-depth understanding to then help them. >> I've seen people do things like they couldn't get a business model going so they say, "Oh we're just going to open source it, "and hope that a miracle happens." And it's not really that way. I mean, people do open source for the right reasons to bring code to the table, but you're saying nurturing that community project is a for all kind of thing. >> Fundamentally, I always think there are so many brilliant developers in these communities. And if you go into these communities with the assumption that you can learn something from the other developers, you can learn something from the other companies that are involved. And then you can contribute the areas where you are strong, where you have your core knowledge. And you wrap this into a product that provides value for your customers, everyone wins. Your customer wins, >> That a good way-- >> Your community wins, you win. >> So if you're out there thinking about it think about your core competency and what you want to open source, you got a good fit. Okay what's new for you? You diving, you're an avid scuba diver. We talked about that last time you were on theCUBE. What's new with you? >> I haven't been diving. Actually I drove up to Hootsbor to dive in 48 degrees Fahrenheit water, because I haven't been in the water for so long. My next trip is going to be Okinava which is a lot warmer than that. No, the work keeps me busy, so not as much scuba diving as I would want. But we've been very busy. We've been pushing a lot more contributions to a much larger set of projects. My team has been growing, so we've been actively hiring. And we're developing a second generation, internal set of processes to deal with all of these questions you asked about earlier, of how to make sure that you know where you contribute, how you contribute, which components you use. So we're revamping our internal processes around this. >> Lauren: That's great >> And it's keeping us very busy, but I have to say, especially, if you look at this conference here, the success is really very rewarding. We have so many more people actively engaged, and recognized in the community as key contributors. It's been a very very successful year since last we talked. >> It's awesome. Well thanks for your leadership at VMware. We love the KubeCon, we love the Linux Foundation, they've done amazing work. CNCF is just exploded with success and it's a result of, the trend is everyone's friend, which is cloud computing and software defined everything so, VMware. Thanks for coming out Dirk, appreciate it. Live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Lauren Cooney co-hosting with me this week. And we'll be back with more, stay with us after this short break. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to the live CUBE coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018, Kubernetes European conference. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here with Adrian Cockcroft who is the Vice President of Cloud Architecture and Strategy for Amazon Web Services, AWS. CUBE alumni, great to see you, a legend in the industry, great to have you on board today. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks very much. >> Quick update, Amazon, we were at AWS Summit recently, I was at re:Invent last year, it gets bigger and bigger just continue to grow. Congratulations on successful great earnings. You guys posted last week, just continuing to show the scale and leverage that the cloud has. So, again, nothing really new here, cloud is winning and the model of choice. So you guys are doing a great job, so congratulations. Open source, you're handling a lot of that now. This community here, is all about driving cloud standards. >> Adrian: Yeah. >> Your guys position on that is? Standards are great, you do what customers want, as Andy Jassy always says, what's the update? I mean, what's new since Austin last year? >> Yeah, well, it's been great to be back on had a great video of us talking at Austin, it's been very helpful to get the message out of what we're doing in containers and what the open source team that I lead has been up to. It's been very nice. Since then we've done quite a lot. We were talking about doing things then, which we've now actually done and delivered on. We're getting closer to getting our Kubernetes service out, EKS. We hired Bob Wise, he started with us in January, he's the general manager of EKS. Some of you may know Bob has been working with Kubernetes since the early days. He was on the CNCF board before he joined us. He's working very hard, they have a team cranking away on all the things we need to do to get the EKS service out. So that's been major focus, just get it out. We have a lot of people signed up for the preview. Huge interest, we're onboarding a lot of people every week, and we're getting good feedback from people. We have demos of it in the booth here this week. >> So you guys are very customer-centric, following you guys closely as you know. What's the feedback that you're hearing and what are you guys ingesting from an intelligence standpoint from the field. Obviously, a new constituent, not new, but a major constituent is open source communities, as well as paying enterprise customers? What's the feedback? What are you hearing? I would say beyond tire kicking, there's general interest in what Kubernetes has enabled. What's Amazon's view of that? >> Yeah, well, open source in general is always getting a larger slice of what people want to do. Generally, people are trying to get off of their enterprise solutions and evolving into an open source space and then you kind of evolve from that into buying it as a service. So that's kind of the evolution from one trend, custom or enterprise software, to open source to as a service. And we're standing up all of these tools as a service to make them easier to consume for people. Just, everybody's happy to do that. What I'm hearing from customers is that that's what they're looking for. They want it to be easy to use, they want it to scale, they want it to be reliable and work, and that's what we're good at doing. And then they want to track the latest moves in the industry and run with the latest technologies and that's what Kubernetes and the CNCF is doing, gathering together a lot of technologies. Building the community around it, just able to move faster than we'd move on our own. We're leveraging all of those things into what we're doing. >> And the status of EKS right now is in preview? And the estimated timetable for GA? >> In the next few months. >> Next few months. >> You know, get it out then right now it's running in Oregon, in our Oregon data center, so the previews are all happening there. That gets us our initial thing and then everyone go okay, we want to in our other regions, so we have to do that. So another service we have is Fargate, which is basically say just here's a container, I want to run it, you don't have to declare a node or an instance to run it first. We launched that at re:Invent, that's already in production obviously, we just rolled that out to four regions. That's in Virginia, Oregon, Dublin and Ohio right now. A huge interest in Fargate, it lets you simplify your deployments a little bit. We just posted a new blog post that we have an open source blog, you can find if you want to keep up with what's going on with the open source team at AWS. Just another post this morning and it's a first pass at getting Fargate to work with Kubernetes using Virtual Kubelet which is a project that was kicked off by, it's an experimental project, not part of the core Kubernetes system. But it's running on the side. It's something that Microsoft came up with a little while ago. So we now have, we're working with them. We did a pull request, they accepted it, so that team and AWS and a few other customers and other people in the community, working together to provide you a way to start up Fargate as the underlying layer for provisioning containers underneath Kubernetes as the API for doing you know the management of that. >> So who do you work with mostly when you're working in open source? Who do you partner with? What communities are you engaging with in particular? >> It's all over. >> All over? >> Wherever the communities are we're engaging with them. >> Lauren: Okay, any particular ones that stand out? >> Other than CNCF, we have a lot of engagement with Apache Hadoop ecosystem. A lot of work in data science, there's many, many projects in that space. In AI and machine learning, we've sponsored, we've spend a lot of time working with Apache MXNet, we were also working off with TensorFlow by Torch and Caffe and there's a lot, those are all open source frameworks so there's lots of contributions there. In the serverless arena, we have our own SAM service application model. We've been open sourcing more of that recently ourselves and we're working with various other people. Across these different groups there's different conferences you go to, there's different things we do. We just sponsored Rails Conference. My team sponsors and manages most of the open source conference events we go to now. We just did RAILCON, we're doing a Rust conference, soon I think, there's Python conferences. I forget when all these are. There's a massive calendar of conferences that we're supporting. >> Make sure you email us that that list, we're interested actually in looking at what the news and action is. >> So the language ones, AltCon's our flagship one, we'll be top-level sponsor there. When we get to the U.S., CubeCon in Seattle, it's right there, it's two weeks after re:Invent. It's going to be much easier to manage. When we go to re:Invent it's like everyone just wants to take that week off, right. We got a week for everyone to recover and then it's in the hometown. >> You still have that look in your eyes when we interviewed you in Austin you came down, we both were pretty exhausted after re:Invent. >> Yeah, so we announced a bunch of things on Wednesday and Thursday and I had to turn it into a keynote by Tuesday and get everyone to agree. That's what was going on, that was very compressed. We have more time and all of the engineering teams that really want to be at an event like this, were right in the hometown for a lot. >> What's it like workin' at Amazon, I got to ask you it since you brought it up. I mean and you guys run hard at Amazon, you're releasing stuff with a pace that's unbelievable. I mean, I get blown away every year. Almost seems like, inhuman that that you guys can run at that pace. And earnings, obviously, the business results speak for themselves, what's it like there? I mean, you put your running shoes on, you run a marathon every day. >> It's lots of small teams working relatively independently and that scales and that's something other engineering organizations have trouble with. They build hierarchies that slow down. We have a really good engineering culture where every time you start a new team, it runs at its own speed. We've shown that as we add more and more resources, more teams, they are just executing. In fact, their accelerated, they're building on top of other things. We get to build higher and higher level abstractions to layer into. Just getting easier and easier to build things. We're accelerating our pace of innovation there's no slowing down. >> I was telling Jassy they're going to write a Harvard Business School case study on a lot of the management practices, but certainly the impact on the business side with the model that you guys do. But I got to ask you, on the momentum side, super impressed with SageMaker. I predicted on theCUBE at AWS Summit that that will be the fastest growing service. It will overtake Aurora, I think that is currently on stage, presented as the fastest growing service. SageMaker is really popular. Updates there, its role in the community. Obviously, Kubernete's a good fit for orchestrating things. We heard about CubeFlow, is an interesting model. What's going on with SageMaker how is it interplaying with Kubernetes? >> People that want to run, if you're running on-premise, cluster of GPU enabled machines then CubeFlow is a great way of doing that. You're on TensorFlow, that manages your cluster, you run CubeFlow on top. SageMaker is running at very low scale and like a lot of things we do at AWS, what you need to run an individual cluster for any one customer is different from running a multi-tenant service. SageMaker sits on top of ECS and it's now one of the largest generators of traffic to ECS which is Amazon's horizontally scaled, multi-tenant, cluster management system, which is now doing hundreds of millions of container launches a week. That is continuing to grow. We see Kubernetes as it's a more portable abstraction. It has some more, different layers of API's and a big community around it. But for the heavy lifting of running tens of thousands of containers in for a single application, we're still at the level where ECS does that every day and Kubernetes that's kind of the extreme case, where a few people are pushing it. It'll gradually grow scale. >> It's evolution. >> There's an evolution here. But the interesting things are, we're starting to get some convergence on some of the interfaces. Like the interfacing at CNA, CNA is the way you do networking on containers and there is one way of doing that, that is shared by everybody through CNA. EKS uses it, BCS uses it and Kubernetes uses it. >> And the impact of customers is what for that? What's the impact? >> It means the networking structures you want to set up will be the same. And the capabilities and the interfaces. But what happens on AWS is because it has a direct plug-in, you can hook it up to our accelerated networking infrastructure. So, AWS's instances right now, we've offloaded most of the network traffic processing. You're running 25 gigabits of traffic, that's quite a lot of work even for a big CPU, but it's handled by the the Nitro plug-in architecture we have, this in our latest instance type. So if you talked a bit about that at re:Invent but what you're getting is enormous, complete hypervisor offload at the core machine level. You get to use that accelerated networking. You're plugging into that interface. But that, if you want to have a huge number of containers on a machine and you're not really trying to drive very high throughput, then you can use Calico and we support that as well. So, multiple different ways but all through the same thing, the same plug-ins on both. >> System portability. You mentioned some stats, what's the numbers you mentioned? How many containers you're launching a week, hundreds of thousands? On ECS, our container platform that's been out for a few years, so hundreds of millions a week. It's really growing very fast. The containers are taking off everywhere. >> Microservices growth is, again that's the architecture. As architecture is a big part of the conversation what's your dialogue with customers? Because the modern software architecture in cloud, looks a lot different than what it was in the three layered approach that used to be the web stack. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, you know we were just talking to folks about how in large enterprise organizations, you're still finding groups that do waterfall development. How are you working to kind of bring these customers and these developers into the future, per se? >> Yeah, that's actually, I spend about half my time managing the open source team and recruiting. The other half is talking to customers about this topic. I spend my time traveling around the world, talking at summits and events like this and meeting with customers. There's lots of different problems slowing people down. I think you see three phases of adoption of cloud, in general. One is just speed. I want to get something done quickly, I have a business need, I want to do it. I want machines in minutes instead of months, right, and that speeds everything up so you get something done quickly. The second phase is where you're starting to do stuff at scale and that's where you need cloud native. You really need to have elastic services, you can scale down as well as up, otherwise, you just end up with a lot of idle machines that cost you too much and it's not giving you the flexibility. The third phase we're getting into is complete data center shutdown. If you look at investing in a new data center or data center refresh or just opening an AWS account, it really doesn't make sense nowadays. We're seeing lots of large enterprises either considering it or well into it. Some are a long way into this. When you shut down the data center all of the backend core infrastructure starts coming out. So we're starting to see sort of mainframe replacement and the really critical business systems being replaced. Those are the interesting conversations, that's one of the areas that I'm particularly interested in right now and it's leading into this other buzzword, if you like, called chaos engineering. Which is sort of the, think of it as the availability model for cloud native and microservices. We're just starting a working group at CNCF around chaos engineering, is being started this week. So you can get a bit involved in how we can build some standards. >> That's going to be at Stanford? >> It's here, I mean it's a working group. >> Okay, online. >> The CNCF working group, they are wherever the people are, right. >> So, what is that conversation when you talk about that mainframe kind of conversation or shut down data centers to the cloud. What is the key thing that you promote, up front, that needs to get done by the by the customer? I mean, obviously you have the pillars, the key pillars, but you think about microservices it's a global platform, it's not a lift and shift situation, kind of is, it shut down, but I mean not at that scale. But, security, identity, authentication, there's no perimeter so you know microservices, potentially going to scale. What are the things that you promote upfront, that they have to do up front. What are the up front, table stake decisions? >> For management level, the real problem is people problems. And it's a technology problem somewhere down in the weeds. Really, if you don't get the people structures right then you'll spend forever going through these migrations. So if you sort of bite the bullet and do the reorganization that's needed first and get the right people in the right place, then you move much faster through it. I say a lot of the time, we're way upstream of picking a technology, it's much more about understanding the sort of DevOps, Agile and the organizational structures for these more cellular based organizations, you know, AWS is a great example of that. Netflix are another good example of that. Capital One is becoming a good example of that too. In banking, they're going much faster because they've already gone through that. >> So they're taking the Amazon model, small teams. Is that your general recommendation? What's your general recommendation? >> Well, this is the whole point of microservices, is that they're built by these small teams. It's called Conway's law, which says that the code will end up looking like the team, the org structure that built it. So, if you set up a lots of small teams, you will end up with microservices. That's just the way it works, right. If you try to take your existing siloed architecture with your long waterfall things, it's very hard not to build a monolith. Getting the org structure done first is right. Then we get into kind of the landing zone thing. You could spend years just debating what your architecture should be and some people have and then every year they come back, and it's changing faster than they can decide what to do. That's another kind of like analysis paralysis mode you see some larger enterprises in. I always think just do it. What's the standard best practice, layout my accounts like this, my networks like this, my structures we call it landing zone. We get somebody up to speed incredibly quickly and it's the beaten path. We're starting to build automation around these on boarding things, we're just getting stuff going. >> That's great. >> Yeah, and then going back to the sort of chaos engineering kind of idea, one of the first things I should think you should put into this infrastructure is the disaster recovery automation. Because if that gets there before the apps do, then the apps learn to live with the chaos monkeys and things like that. Really, one of the first apps we installed at Netflix was Chaos Monkey. It wasn't added later, it was there when you arrived. Your app had to survive the chaos that was in the system. So, think of that as, it used to be disaster recovery was incredibly expensive, hard to build, custom and very difficult to test. People very rarely run through their disaster recovery testing data center fail over, but if you build it in on day one, you can build it automated. I think Kubernetes is particularly interesting because the API's to do that automation are there. So we're looking at automating injecting failure at the Kubernetes level and also injecting into the underlying machines that are running Good Maze, like attacking the control plane to make sure that the control plane recovery works. I think there's a lot we can do there to automate it and make it into a low-cost, productized, safe, reliable thing, that you do a lot. Rather than being something that everyone's scared of doing that. >> Or they bolted on after they make decisions and the retrofit, pre-existing conditions into a disaster recovery. Which is chaotic in and of itself. >> So, get the org chart right and then actually get the disaster recovery patterns. If you need something highly available, do that first, before the apps turn up. >> Adrian, thanks for coming on, chaos engineering, congratulations and again, we know you know a little about Netflix, you know that environment, and been big Amazon customer. Congratulations on your success, looking forward to keeping in touch. Thanks for coming on and sharing the AWS perspective on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney live in Denmark for KubeCon 2018 part of the CNC at the Cloud Native Compute Foundation. We'll back with more live coverage, stay with us. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)