>> Narrator: At the DataWorks Summit, Europe 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live from Munich, Germany at DataWorks 2017, Hadoop Summit formerly, the conference name before it changed to DataWorks. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Dave Vellante. Our next guest, we're excited to have Alan Nance who flew in, just for the CUBE interview today. Executive Vice President with Virtual Clarity. Former star, I call practitioner of the Cloud, knows the Cloud business. Knows the operational aspects of how to use technology. Alan, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Thank you for having me again. >> Great to see you, you were in the US recently, we had a chance to catch up. And one of the motivations that we talked with you today was, a little bit about some of the things you're looking at, that are transformative. Before we do that, let's talk a little about your history. And what your role is at Virtual Clarity. >> So, as you guys have, basically, followed that career, I started out in the transformation time with ING Bank. And started out, basically, technology upwards. Looking at converged infrastructure, converged infrastructure into VDI. When you've got that, you start to look at Clouds. Then you start to experiment with Clouds. And I moved from ING, from earlier experimentation, into Phillips. So, while Phillips, at that time had both the health care and lighting group. And then you start to look at consumption based Cloud propositions. And you remember the big thing that we were doing at that time, when we identified that 80% of the IT spend was non differentiating. So the thing was, how do we get away from almost a 900 million a year spend on legacy? How do we turn that into something that's productive for the Enterprise? So we spent a lot of time creating the consumption based infrastructure operating platform. A lot of things we had to learn. Because let's be honest, Amazon was still trying to become the behemoth it is now. IBM still didn't get the transition, HP didn't get it. So there was a lot of experimentation on which of the operating model-- >> You're the first mover on the operating model, The Cloud, that has scaled to it. And really differentiated services for your business, for also, cost reductions. >> Cost reductions have been phenomenal. And we're talking about halving the budget over a three year period. We're talking about 500 million a year savings. So these are big, big savings. The thing I feel we still need to tackle, is that when we re-platform your business, it should leave to agile acceleration of your growth path. And I think that's something that we still haven't conquered. So I think we're getting better and better at using platforms to save money, to suppress the expenditure. What we now need to do is to convert that into growth platform business. >> So, how about the data component? Because you were CIO of infrastructure at Phillips. But lately, you've been really spending a lot of time thinking about the data, how data adds value. So talk about your data journey. >> Well if I look at the data journey, the journey started for me, with, basically, a meeting with Tom Ritz in 2013. And he came with a very, very simple proposition. "You guys need to learn how to create "and store, and reason over data, "for the benefit of the Enterprise." And I think, "Well that's cool." Because up until that point, nobody had really been talking about data. Everyone was talking about the underlying technologies of the Cloud, but not really of the data element. And then we had a session with JP Rangaswami, who was at Salesforce, who basically, also said, "Well don't just think "about data lakes, but think also "about data streams and data rivers. "Because the other thing that's "going to happen here is that data's "not going to be stagnant in a company like yours." So we took that, and what happened, I think, in Phillips, which I think you see in a lot of companies, is an explosion across the Enterprise. So you've got people in social doing stuff. You got CDO's appearing. You've got the IOT. You've got the old, legacy systems, the systems of record. And so you end up with this enormous fragmentation of data. And with that you get a Wild West of what I call data stewardship. So you have a CDO who says, "Well I'm in charge of data." And you got a CMO who says, "Well I'm in charge of marketing data." Or you've got a CSO, says, "Yeah, "but I'm the security data guy." And there's no coherence, in terms of moving the Enterprise forward. Because everybody's focused on their own functionality around that data and not connecting it. So where are we now? I think right now we have a huge proliferation of data that's not connected, in many organizations. And I think we're going to hybrid but I don't think that's a future proof thing for most organizations. >> John: What do you mean by that? >> Well, if I look at what a lot of those suppliers are saying, they're really saying, "The solution "that you need, is to have a hybrid solution "between the public Cloud and your own Cloud." I thought, "But that's not the problem "that we need to solve." The problem that we need to solve is first of all, data gravity. So if I look at all the transformations that are running into trouble, what do they forget? When we go out and do IOT, when we go out and do social media analysis, it all has to flow back into those legacy systems. And those legacy systems are all going to be in the old world. And so you get latency issues, you get formatting issues. And so, we have to solve the data gravity issue. And we have to also solve this proliferation of stewardship. Somebody has to be in charge of making this work. And it's not going to be, just putting in a hybrid solution. Because that won't change the operating model. >> So let me ask the question, because on one of the things you're kind of dancing around, Dave brought up the data question. Something that I see as a problem in the industry, that hasn't yet been solved, and I'm just going to throw it out there. The CIO has always been the guy managing IT. And then he would report to the CFO, get the budget, blah, blah, blah. We know that's kind of played out its course. But there's no operational playbook to take the Cloud, mobile data at scale, that's going to drive the transformative impact. And I think there's some people doing stuff here and there, pockets. And maybe there's some organizations that have a cadence of managers, that are doing compliance, security, blah, blah, blah. But you have a vision on this. And some information that you're tracking around. An architecture that would bring it to scale. Could you share your thoughts on this operational model of Cloud, at a management level? >> Well, part of this is also based on your own analyst, Peter Boris. When he says, "The problem with data "is that its value is inverse to its half life." So, what the Enterprise has to do is it has to get to analyzing and making this data valuable, much, much faster then it is right now. And Chris Sellender of Unifi recently said, "You know, the problem's not big data. "The problem's fast data." So, now, who is best positioned in the organization to do this? And I believe it's the COO. >> John: Chief Operating Officer? >> Chief Operating Officer. I don't think it's going to be the CIO. Because I'm trying to figure out who's got the problem. Who's got the problem of connecting the dots to improving the operation of the company? Who is in charge of actually creating an operating platform that the business can feed off of? It's the C Tower. >> John: Why not the CFO? >> No, I think the CFO is going to be a diminishing value, over time. Because a couple of reasons. First of all, we see it in Phillips. There's always going to be a fiduciary role for the CFO. But we're out of the world of capex. We're out of the world of balancing assets. Everything is now virtual. So really, the value of a CFO, as sitting on the tee, if I use the racquetball, the CFO standing on the tee is not going to bring value to the Enterprise. >> And the CIO doesn't have the business juice, is your argument? Is that right? >> It depends on the CIO. There are some CIO's out there-- >> Dave: But in general, we're generalizing. >> Generally not. Because they've come through the ranks of building applications, which now has to be thrown away. They've come through the ranks of technology, which is now less relevant. And they've come through the ranks of having huge budgets and huge people to deploy certain projects. All of that's going away. And so what are you left with? Now you're left with somebody who absolutely has to understand how to communicate with the business. And that's what they haven't done for 30 years. >> John: And stream line business process. >> Well, at least get involved in the conversation. At least get involved in the conversation. Now if I talk to business people today, and you probably do too, most of them will still say there's this huge communication gulf. Between what we're trying to achieve and what the technology people are doing with our goals. I mean, I was talking to somebody the other day. And this lady heads up the sales for a global financial institution. She's sitting on the business side of this. And she's like, "The conversation should be "about, if our company wants to improve "our cost income ratio, and they ask me, "as sales to do it, I have to sell 10 times "more to make a difference. "Then if IT would save money. "So for every Euro they save. "And give me an agile platform, "is straight to the bottom line. "Every time I sell, because of our "cost income ratio, I just can't sell against that. "But I can't find on the IT side, "anybody who, sort of, gets my problem. "And is trying to help me with it." And then you look at her and what? You think a hybrid solution's going to help her? (laughs) I have no idea what you're talking about. >> Right, so the business person here then says, "I don't really care where it runs." But to your point, you care about the operational model? >> Alan: Absolutely. >> And that's really what Cloud should be, right? >> I think everybody who's going to achieve anything from an investment in Cloud, will achieve it in the operating world. They won't just achieve it on the cost savings side. Or on making costs more transparent, or more commoditized. Where it has to happen is in the operating model. In fact, we actually have data of a very large, transportation, logistics company, who moved everything that they had, in an attempt to be in a zero Cloud. And on the benchmark, saved zero. And they saved zero because they weren't changing the operating model. So they were still-- >> They lifted and shifted, but didn't change the operational mindset. >> Not at all. >> But there could have been business value there. Maybe things went faster? >> There could have been. >> Maybe simpler? >> But I'm not seeing it. >> Not game changing. >> Not game changing, certainly yes. >> Not as meaningful, it was a stretch. >> Give an example of a game changing scenario. >> Well for me, and I think this is the next most exciting thing. Is this idea of platforms. There's been an early adoption of this in Telco. Where we've seen people coming in and saying, "If you stock all of this IT, as we've known it, "and you leverage the ideas of Cloud computing, "to have scalable, invisible, infrastructure. "And you put a single platform on top of it "to run your business, you can save money." Now, I've seen business cases where people who are about to embark on this program are taking a billion a year out of their cost base. And in this company, it's 1/7th of their total profit. That's a game changer, for me. But now, who's going to help them do that? Who's going to help them-- >> What's the platform look like? >> And a million's a lot of money. >> Let's go, grab a sheet of paper how we-- >> So not everybody will even have a billion-- >> But that gets the attention of certainly, the CEO, the COO, CFO says, "Tell me more." >> You're alluding to it, Dave. You need to build a layer to punch, to doing that. So you need to fix the data stewardship problem. You have to create the invisible infrastructure that enables that platform. And you have to have a platform player who is prepared to disrupt the industry. And for me-- >> Dave: A Cloud player. >> A Cloud player, I think it's a born in the Cloud player. I think, you know, we've talked about it privately. >> So who are the forces to attract? You got Microsoft, you got AWS, Google, maybe IBM, maybe Oracle. >> See, I think it's Google. >> Dave: Why, why do you think it's Google? >> I think it's because, the platforms that I'm thinking of, and if I look in retail, if I look in financial services, it's all about data. Because that's the battle, right. We all agree, the battle's on data. So it's got to be somebody who understands data at scale, understands search at scale, understands deep learning at scale. And understands technology enough to build that platform and make it available in a consumption model. And for me, Google would be the ideal player, if they would make that step. Amazon's going to have a different problem because their strategy's not going down that route. And I think, for people like IBM or Oracle, it would require cannibalizing too much of their existing business. But they may dally with it. And they may do it in a territory where they have no install base. But they're not going to be disrupting the industry. I just don't think it's going to be possible for them. >> And you think Google has the Enterprise chops to pull it off? >> I think Google has the platform. I would agree with Alan on this. Something, I've been very critical on Google. Dave brings this up because he wants me to say it now, and I will. Google is well positioned to be the platform. I am very bullish on Google Cloud with respect to their ability to moon shot or slingshot to the future faster, than, potentially others. Or as they say in football, move the goal posts and change the game. That being said, where I've been critical of Google, and this is where, I'll be critical, is their dogma is very academic, very, "We're the technology leader, "therefore you should use Google G Suite." I think that they have to change their mindset, to be more Enterprise focused, in the sense of understand not the best product will always win, but the B chip they have to develop, have to think about the Enterprise. And that's a lot of white glove service. That's a lot of listening. That's not being too arrogant. I mean, there's a borderline between confidence and arrogance. And I think Google crosses it a little bit too much, Dave. And I think that's where Google recognizes, some people in Google recognize that they don't have the Enterprise track record, for sure on the sales side. You could add 1,000 sales reps tomorrow but do they have experience? So there's a huge translation issue going on between Google's capability and potential energy. And then the reality of them translating that into an operational footprint. So for them to meet the mark of folks like you, you can't be speaking Russian and English. You got to speak the same language. So, the language barrier, so to speak, the linguistics is different. That's my only point. >> I sense in your statements, there's a frustration here. Because we know that the key to some really innovative, disruption is with Google. And I think what we'd all like to do, even while I was addressing the camera. I'd love to see Diane, who does understand Enterprise, who's built a whole career servicing Enterprises extremely well, I'd like to see a little bit of a glimpse of, "We are up for this." And I understand when you're part of the bigger Google, the numbers are a little bit skewered against you to make a big impact and carry the firm with you. But I do believe there's an enormous opportunity in the Enterprise space. And people are just waiting for this. >> Well Diane Greene knows the Enterprise. So she came in, she's got to change the culture. And I know she's doing it. Because I have folks at Google, that I know that work there, that tell me privately, that it's happening, maybe not fast enough. But here's the thing. If you walked in the front door at Google, Alan Nance, this is my point, and he said, "I have experience and I have a plan "to build a platform, to knock a billion "dollars off seven companies, that I know, personally. "That I can walk in and win. "And move a billion dollars to their "bottom line with your platform." They might not understand what that means. >> I don't know, you know I was at Google Next a few weeks ago, last month. And I thought they were more, to your point, open to listening. Maybe not as arrogant as you might be presenting. And somewhat more humble. Still pretty ballsy. But I think Google recognizes that it needs help in the Enterprise. And here's why. Something that we've talked about in the past, is, you've got top down initiatives. You've got bottom up initiatives. And you've got middle out. What frequently happens, and I'd love for you to describe your experiences. The leaders say, the top CXO's say, "Okay we're going." And they take off and the organization doesn't follow them. If it's bottoms up, you don't have the top down in premature. So how do you address that? What are you seeing and how do you address that problem? >> So I think that's a really, really good observation. I mean, what I see in a lot of the big transformations that I've been involved in, is that speed is of the essence. And I think when CEO's, because usually it's the CEO. CEO comes in and they think they've got more time than they actually have to make the impact in the Enterprise. And it doesn't matter if they're coming in from the outside or they've grown up. They always underestimate their ability to do change, in time. And now what's changed over the past few years, is the average tenure of a CEO is six years. You know, I mean, Jack Welch was 20 years at GE. You can do a lot of damage in 20 years. And he did a lot of great things at GE over a 20 year period. You've only got six years now. And what I see in these big transformation programs is they start with a really good vision. I mean Mackenzie, Bain, Boston. They know the essence of what needs to happen. >> Dave: They can sell the dream. >> They can sell the dream. And the CEO sort of buys into it. And then immediately you get into the first layer, "Okay, okay, so we've got to change the organization." And so you bring in a lot of these companies that will run 13 work streams over three years, with hundreds of people. And at the end of that time, you're almost halfway through your tenure. And all you've got is a new design. Or a new set of job descriptions or strategies. You haven't actually achieved anything. And then the layer down is going to run into real problems. One of the problems that we had at the company I worked at before, was in order to support these platforms you needed really good master data management. And we suddenly realized that. And so we had to really put in an accelerated program to achieve that, with Impatica. We did it, but it cost us a year and 1/2. At a bank I know, they can't move forward because they're looking at 700 million of technology debt, they can't get past. So they end up going down a route of, "Maybe one of these big suppliers "can buy our old stuff. "And we can tag on some transformational "deal at the back end of that." None of those are working. And then what happens is, in my mind, if the CEO, from what I see, has not achieved escape velocity at the end of year three. So he's showing the growth, or she's showing the digital transformation, it's kind of game over. The Enterprise has already figured out they've stalled it long enough, not intentionally. And then we go back into an austerity program. Because you got to justify the millions you've spent in the last three years. And you've got nothing to show for it. >> And you're preparing three envelopes. >> So you got to accelerate those layers. You got to take layers out and you've got to have a really, I would say almost like, 90 day iteration plans that show business outcomes. >> But the technology layer, you can put in an abstraction layer, use APIs and infrastructure as code, all that cool stuff. But you're saying it's the organizational challenges. >> I think that's the real problem. It is the real problem, is the organization. And also, because what you're really doing in terms of the Enterprise, is you're moving from a more traditional supply chain that you own. And you've matriculated with SAP or with Oracle. Now you're talking about creating a digital value chain. A digital value chain that's much more based on a more mobile ecosystem, where you would have thin text in one area or insurance text, that have to now fit into an agile supply chain. It's all about the operating model. If you don't have people who know how to drive that, the technology's not going to help you. So you've got to have people on the business side and the technology side coming together to make this work. >> Alan, I have a question for you. What's you're prediction, okay, knowing what you know. And kind of, obviously, you have some frustrations in platforms with trying to get the big players to listen. And I think they should listen to you. But this is going to happen. So I would believe that what you're saying with the COO, operational things radically changing differently. Obviously, the signs are all there. Data centers are moving into the Cloud. I mean this is radical stuff, in a good way. And so, what's your prediction for how this plays out vis a vis Amazon Web Services, Google Cloud Platform Azure, IBM Cloud SoftLayer. >> Well here's my concern a little bit. I think if Google enters the fray I think everybody will reconfigure. Because if we'd assume that Google plays to its strengths and goes out there and finds the right partners. It's going to reconfigure the industry. If they don't do that, then what the industry's going to do is what it's done. Which means that the platforms are going to be hybrid platforms that are dominated by the traditional players. By the SOPs, by the Oracles, by the IBMs. And what I fear is that there may actually be a disillusionment. Because they will not bring the digital transformation and all the wonderful things that we all know, are out there to be gained. So you may get, "We've invested all this money." You see it a little bit with big data. "I've got this huge layer. "I've got petabytes. "Why am I not smarter? "Why is my business not going so much better? "I've put everything in there." I think we've got to address the operating problem. And we have to find a dialogue at the C Suite. >> Well to your point, and we talked about this. You know, you look at the core of Enterprise apps, the Oracle stuff is not moving in droves, to the Cloud. Oracle's freezing the market right now. Betting that it can get there before the industry gets there. And if it does-- >> Alan: It's not. >> And it might, but if it does, it's not going to be that radical transformation you're prescribing. >> They have too much to lose. Let's be honest, right. So Oracle is a victim of it's own success, pretty much like SAP. It has to go to the Cloud as a defensive play. Because the last thing either of those want is to be disintermediated by Amazon. Which may or may not happen anyway. Because a lot of companies will disintermediate if they can. Because the licensing is such a painful element for most enterprises, when they deal with these companies. So they have to believe that the platform is not going to look like that. >> And they're still trying to figure out the pricing models, and the margin models, and Amazon's clearly-- >> You know what's driving the pricing models is not the growth on the consumer side. >> Right, absolutely. >> That's not what's driving it. So I think we need another player. I really think we need another player. If it's not Google, somebody else. I can't think who would have the scale, the money to-- >> The only guys who have the scale, you got 10 cents, maybe a couple China Clouds, maybe one Japan Cloud and that's it. >> To be honest, you raise a good point. I haven't really looked at the Ali Baba's and the other people like that who may pick up that mantle. I haven't looked at them. Ali Baba's interesting, because just like Amazon, they have their own business that runs on platforms. And a very diverse business, which is growing faster than Amazon and is more profitable than Amazon. So they could be interesting. But I'm still hopeful. We should figure this out. >> Google should figure it out. You're absolutely right. They're investing, and I thought they put forth a pretty good messaging at the Google Next. You covered it remotely but I think they understand the opportunity. And I think they have the stomach for it. >> We had reporters there as well, at the event. We just did, they came to our studio. Google is self aware that they need to work on the Enterprise. I think the bigger thing that you're highlighting is the operational model is shifting to a scale point where it's going to change stewardship and COO meaning to be, I like that. The other thing I want to get your reaction to is something I heard this morning, on the CUBE from Sean Connelly. Which that goes with some of the things that we're seeing where you're seeing Cloud becoming a more centralized view. Where IOT is an Edge case. So you have now, issues around architectural things. Your thoughts and reaction to this balance between Edge and Cloud. >> Well I think this is where you're also going to have your data gravity challenge. So, Dave McCrory has written a lot about the concept of data gravity. And in my mind, too many people in the Enterprise don't understand it. Which is basically, that data attracts more data. And more data you have, it'll attract more. And then you create all these latency issues when you start going out to the Edge. Because when we first went out to the Edge I think, even at Phillips, we didn't realize how much interaction needed to come back. And that's going to vary from company to company. So some company's are going to want to have that data really quickly because they need to react to it immediately. Others may not have that. But what you do have is you have this balancing act. About, "What do I keep central? "And what do I put at the Edge?" I think Edge Technology is amazing. And when we first looked at it, four years ago, I mean, it's come such a long way. And what I am encouraged by is that, that data layer, so the layer that Sean talks about, there's a lot of exciting things happening. But again, my problem is what's the Enterprise going to do with that? Because it requires a different operating model. If I take an example of a manufacturing company, I know a manufacturing company right now that does work in China. And it takes all the data back to its central mainframes for processing. Well if you've got the Edge, you want to be changing the way you process. Which means that the decision makers on the business need to be insitu. They need to be in China. And we need to be bringing, systems of record data and combining it with local social data and age data, so we get better decisions. So we can drive growth in those areas. If I just enable it with technology but don't change the business model the business is not going to grow. >> So Alan, we always loved having you on. Great practitioner, but now you've kind of gone over to the dark side. We've heard of a company called Virtual Clarity. Tell us about what you're doing there. >> So what we're vested in, what I am very much vested in, with my team at Virtual Clarity, is creating this concept of precision guided transformation. Where you work on the business, on what are the outcomes we really need to get from this? And then we've combined, I would say it's like a data nerve center. So we can quickly analyze, within a matter of weeks, where we are with the company, and what routes to value we can create. And then we'll go and do it. So we do it in 90 day increments. So the business now starts to believe that something's really going to happen. None of these big, insert miracle here after three year programs. But actually going out and doing it. The second thing that I think that we're doing that I'm excited about is bringing in enlightened people who represent the Enterprise. So, one of my colleagues, former COO of Unilever, we just brought on a very smart lady, Dessa Grassa, who was the CDO at JP Morgan Chase. And the idea is to combine the insights that we have on the demand side, the buy side, with the insights that we have on the technology side to create better operating models. So that combination of creating a new view that is acceptable to the C Suite. Because these people understand how you talk to them. But at the same time, runs on this concept of doing everything quickly. That's what we're about right now. >> That's awesome, we should get you hooked up with our new analyst we just hired, James Corbelius, from IBM. Was focusing on exactly that. The intersections of developers, Cloud, AI machine learning and data, all coming together. And IOT is going to be a key application that we're going to see coming out of that. So, congratulations. Alan thank you for spending the time to come in. >> Thanks for allowing me. >> To see us in the CUBE. It's the CUBE, bringing you more action. Here from DataWorks 2017. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Dave Vallante, here on the CUBE, SiliconANGLE Media's flagship program. Where we've got the events, straight from SiliconANGLE. Stay with us for more great coverage. Day one of two days of coverage at DataWorks 2017. We'll be right back.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Spark became a top level Apache project in 2014, and then shortly thereafter, burst onto the big data scene. Spark, along with the cloud, transformed and in many ways, disrupted the big data market. Databricks optimized its tech stack for Spark and took advantage of the cloud to really cleverly deliver a managed service that has become a leading AI and data platform among data scientists and data engineers. However, emerging customer data requirements are shifting into a direction that will cause modern data platform players generally and Databricks, specifically, we think, to make some key directional decisions and perhaps even reinvent themselves. Hello and welcome to this week's wikibon theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we're going to do a deep dive into Databricks. We'll explore its current impressive market momentum. We're going to use some ETR survey data to show that, and then we'll lay out how customer data requirements are changing and what the ideal data platform will look like in the midterm future. We'll then evaluate core elements of the Databricks portfolio against that vision, and then we'll close with some strategic decisions that we think the company faces. And to do so, we welcome in our good friend, George Gilbert, former equities analyst, market analyst, and current Principal at TechAlpha Partners. George, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you, Dave. >> All right, let me set this up. We're going to start by taking a look at where Databricks sits in the market in terms of how customers perceive the company and what it's momentum looks like. And this chart that we're showing here is data from ETS, the emerging technology survey of private companies. The N is 1,421. What we did is we cut the data on three sectors, analytics, database-data warehouse, and AI/ML. The vertical axis is a measure of customer sentiment, which evaluates an IT decision maker's awareness of the firm and the likelihood of engaging and/or purchase intent. The horizontal axis shows mindshare in the dataset, and we've highlighted Databricks, which has been a consistent high performer in this survey over the last several quarters. And as we, by the way, just as aside as we previously reported, OpenAI, which burst onto the scene this past quarter, leads all names, but Databricks is still prominent. You can see that the ETR shows some open source tools for reference, but as far as firms go, Databricks is very impressively positioned. Now, let's see how they stack up to some mainstream cohorts in the data space, against some bigger companies and sometimes public companies. This chart shows net score on the vertical axis, which is a measure of spending momentum and pervasiveness in the data set is on the horizontal axis. You can see that chart insert in the upper right, that informs how the dots are plotted, and net score against shared N. And that red dotted line at 40% indicates a highly elevated net score, anything above that we think is really, really impressive. And here we're just comparing Databricks with Snowflake, Cloudera, and Oracle. And that squiggly line leading to Databricks shows their path since 2021 by quarter. And you can see it's performing extremely well, maintaining an elevated net score and net range. Now it's comparable in the vertical axis to Snowflake, and it consistently is moving to the right and gaining share. Now, why did we choose to show Cloudera and Oracle? The reason is that Cloudera got the whole big data era started and was disrupted by Spark. And of course the cloud, Spark and Databricks and Oracle in many ways, was the target of early big data players like Cloudera. Take a listen to Cloudera CEO at the time, Mike Olson. This is back in 2010, first year of theCUBE, play the clip. >> Look, back in the day, if you had a data problem, if you needed to run business analytics, you wrote the biggest check you could to Sun Microsystems, and you bought a great big, single box, central server, and any money that was left over, you handed to Oracle for a database licenses and you installed that database on that box, and that was where you went for data. That was your temple of information. >> Okay? So Mike Olson implied that monolithic model was too expensive and inflexible, and Cloudera set out to fix that. But the best laid plans, as they say, George, what do you make of the data that we just shared? >> So where Databricks has really come up out of sort of Cloudera's tailpipe was they took big data processing, made it coherent, made it a managed service so it could run in the cloud. So it relieved customers of the operational burden. Where they're really strong and where their traditional meat and potatoes or bread and butter is the predictive and prescriptive analytics that building and training and serving machine learning models. They've tried to move into traditional business intelligence, the more traditional descriptive and diagnostic analytics, but they're less mature there. So what that means is, the reason you see Databricks and Snowflake kind of side by side is there are many, many accounts that have both Snowflake for business intelligence, Databricks for AI machine learning, where Snowflake, I'm sorry, where Databricks also did really well was in core data engineering, refining the data, the old ETL process, which kind of turned into ELT, where you loaded into the analytic repository in raw form and refine it. And so people have really used both, and each is trying to get into the other. >> Yeah, absolutely. We've reported on this quite a bit. Snowflake, kind of moving into the domain of Databricks and vice versa. And the last bit of ETR evidence that we want to share in terms of the company's momentum comes from ETR's Round Tables. They're run by Erik Bradley, and now former Gartner analyst and George, your colleague back at Gartner, Daren Brabham. And what we're going to show here is some direct quotes of IT pros in those Round Tables. There's a data science head and a CIO as well. Just make a few call outs here, we won't spend too much time on it, but starting at the top, like all of us, we can't talk about Databricks without mentioning Snowflake. Those two get us excited. Second comment zeros in on the flexibility and the robustness of Databricks from a data warehouse perspective. And then the last point is, despite competition from cloud players, Databricks has reinvented itself a couple of times over the year. And George, we're going to lay out today a scenario that perhaps calls for Databricks to do that once again. >> Their big opportunity and their big challenge for every tech company, it's managing a technology transition. The transition that we're talking about is something that's been bubbling up, but it's really epical. First time in 60 years, we're moving from an application-centric view of the world to a data-centric view, because decisions are becoming more important than automating processes. So let me let you sort of develop. >> Yeah, so let's talk about that here. We going to put up some bullets on precisely that point and the changing sort of customer environment. So you got IT stacks are shifting is George just said, from application centric silos to data centric stacks where the priority is shifting from automating processes to automating decision. You know how look at RPA and there's still a lot of automation going on, but from the focus of that application centricity and the data locked into those apps, that's changing. Data has historically been on the outskirts in silos, but organizations, you think of Amazon, think Uber, Airbnb, they're putting data at the core, and logic is increasingly being embedded in the data instead of the reverse. In other words, today, the data's locked inside the app, which is why you need to extract that data is sticking it to a data warehouse. The point, George, is we're putting forth this new vision for how data is going to be used. And you've used this Uber example to underscore the future state. Please explain? >> Okay, so this is hopefully an example everyone can relate to. The idea is first, you're automating things that are happening in the real world and decisions that make those things happen autonomously without humans in the loop all the time. So to use the Uber example on your phone, you call a car, you call a driver. Automatically, the Uber app then looks at what drivers are in the vicinity, what drivers are free, matches one, calculates an ETA to you, calculates a price, calculates an ETA to your destination, and then directs the driver once they're there. The point of this is that that cannot happen in an application-centric world very easily because all these little apps, the drivers, the riders, the routes, the fares, those call on data locked up in many different apps, but they have to sit on a layer that makes it all coherent. >> But George, so if Uber's doing this, doesn't this tech already exist? Isn't there a tech platform that does this already? >> Yes, and the mission of the entire tech industry is to build services that make it possible to compose and operate similar platforms and tools, but with the skills of mainstream developers in mainstream corporations, not the rocket scientists at Uber and Amazon. >> Okay, so we're talking about horizontally scaling across the industry, and actually giving a lot more organizations access to this technology. So by way of review, let's summarize the trend that's going on today in terms of the modern data stack that is propelling the likes of Databricks and Snowflake, which we just showed you in the ETR data and is really is a tailwind form. So the trend is toward this common repository for analytic data, that could be multiple virtual data warehouses inside of Snowflake, but you're in that Snowflake environment or Lakehouses from Databricks or multiple data lakes. And we've talked about what JP Morgan Chase is doing with the data mesh and gluing data lakes together, you've got various public clouds playing in this game, and then the data is annotated to have a common meaning. In other words, there's a semantic layer that enables applications to talk to the data elements and know that they have common and coherent meaning. So George, the good news is this approach is more effective than the legacy monolithic models that Mike Olson was talking about, so what's the problem with this in your view? >> So today's data platforms added immense value 'cause they connected the data that was previously locked up in these monolithic apps or on all these different microservices, and that supported traditional BI and AI/ML use cases. But now if we want to build apps like Uber or Amazon.com, where they've got essentially an autonomously running supply chain and e-commerce app where humans only care and feed it. But the thing is figuring out what to buy, when to buy, where to deploy it, when to ship it. We needed a semantic layer on top of the data. So that, as you were saying, the data that's coming from all those apps, the different apps that's integrated, not just connected, but it means the same. And the issue is whenever you add a new layer to a stack to support new applications, there are implications for the already existing layers, like can they support the new layer and its use cases? So for instance, if you add a semantic layer that embeds app logic with the data rather than vice versa, which we been talking about and that's been the case for 60 years, then the new data layer faces challenges that the way you manage that data, the way you analyze that data, is not supported by today's tools. >> Okay, so actually Alex, bring me up that last slide if you would, I mean, you're basically saying at the bottom here, today's repositories don't really do joins at scale. The future is you're talking about hundreds or thousands or millions of data connections, and today's systems, we're talking about, I don't know, 6, 8, 10 joins and that is the fundamental problem you're saying, is a new data error coming and existing systems won't be able to handle it? >> Yeah, one way of thinking about it is that even though we call them relational databases, when we actually want to do lots of joins or when we want to analyze data from lots of different tables, we created a whole new industry for analytic databases where you sort of mung the data together into fewer tables. So you didn't have to do as many joins because the joins are difficult and slow. And when you're going to arbitrarily join thousands, hundreds of thousands or across millions of elements, you need a new type of database. We have them, they're called graph databases, but to query them, you go back to the prerelational era in terms of their usability. >> Okay, so we're going to come back to that and talk about how you get around that problem. But let's first lay out what the ideal data platform of the future we think looks like. And again, we're going to come back to use this Uber example. In this graphic that George put together, awesome. We got three layers. The application layer is where the data products reside. The example here is drivers, rides, maps, routes, ETA, et cetera. The digital version of what we were talking about in the previous slide, people, places and things. The next layer is the data layer, that breaks down the silos and connects the data elements through semantics and everything is coherent. And then the bottom layers, the legacy operational systems feed that data layer. George, explain what's different here, the graph database element, you talk about the relational query capabilities, and why can't I just throw memory at solving this problem? >> Some of the graph databases do throw memory at the problem and maybe without naming names, some of them live entirely in memory. And what you're dealing with is a prerelational in-memory database system where you navigate between elements, and the issue with that is we've had SQL for 50 years, so we don't have to navigate, we can say what we want without how to get it. That's the core of the problem. >> Okay. So if I may, I just want to drill into this a little bit. So you're talking about the expressiveness of a graph. Alex, if you'd bring that back out, the fourth bullet, expressiveness of a graph database with the relational ease of query. Can you explain what you mean by that? >> Yeah, so graphs are great because when you can describe anything with a graph, that's why they're becoming so popular. Expressive means you can represent anything easily. They're conducive to, you might say, in a world where we now want like the metaverse, like with a 3D world, and I don't mean the Facebook metaverse, I mean like the business metaverse when we want to capture data about everything, but we want it in context, we want to build a set of digital twins that represent everything going on in the world. And Uber is a tiny example of that. Uber built a graph to represent all the drivers and riders and maps and routes. But what you need out of a database isn't just a way to store stuff and update stuff. You need to be able to ask questions of it, you need to be able to query it. And if you go back to prerelational days, you had to know how to find your way to the data. It's sort of like when you give directions to someone and they didn't have a GPS system and a mapping system, you had to give them turn by turn directions. Whereas when you have a GPS and a mapping system, which is like the relational thing, you just say where you want to go, and it spits out the turn by turn directions, which let's say, the car might follow or whoever you're directing would follow. But the point is, it's much easier in a relational database to say, "I just want to get these results. You figure out how to get it." The graph database, they have not taken over the world because in some ways, it's taking a 50 year leap backwards. >> Alright, got it. Okay. Let's take a look at how the current Databricks offerings map to that ideal state that we just laid out. So to do that, we put together this chart that looks at the key elements of the Databricks portfolio, the core capability, the weakness, and the threat that may loom. Start with the Delta Lake, that's the storage layer, which is great for files and tables. It's got true separation of compute and storage, I want you to double click on that George, as independent elements, but it's weaker for the type of low latency ingest that we see coming in the future. And some of the threats highlighted here. AWS could add transactional tables to S3, Iceberg adoption is picking up and could accelerate, that could disrupt Databricks. George, add some color here please? >> Okay, so this is the sort of a classic competitive forces where you want to look at, so what are customers demanding? What's competitive pressure? What are substitutes? Even what your suppliers might be pushing. Here, Delta Lake is at its core, a set of transactional tables that sit on an object store. So think of it in a database system, this is the storage engine. So since S3 has been getting stronger for 15 years, you could see a scenario where they add transactional tables. We have an open source alternative in Iceberg, which Snowflake and others support. But at the same time, Databricks has built an ecosystem out of tools, their own and others, that read and write to Delta tables, that's what makes the Delta Lake and ecosystem. So they have a catalog, the whole machine learning tool chain talks directly to the data here. That was their great advantage because in the past with Snowflake, you had to pull all the data out of the database before the machine learning tools could work with it, that was a major shortcoming. They fixed that. But the point here is that even before we get to the semantic layer, the core foundation is under threat. >> Yep. Got it. Okay. We got a lot of ground to cover. So we're going to take a look at the Spark Execution Engine next. Think of that as the refinery that runs really efficient batch processing. That's kind of what disrupted the DOOp in a large way, but it's not Python friendly and that's an issue because the data science and the data engineering crowd are moving in that direction, and/or they're using DBT. George, we had Tristan Handy on at Supercloud, really interesting discussion that you and I did. Explain why this is an issue for Databricks? >> So once the data lake was in place, what people did was they refined their data batch, and Spark has always had streaming support and it's gotten better. The underlying storage as we've talked about is an issue. But basically they took raw data, then they refined it into tables that were like customers and products and partners. And then they refined that again into what was like gold artifacts, which might be business intelligence metrics or dashboards, which were collections of metrics. But they were running it on the Spark Execution Engine, which it's a Java-based engine or it's running on a Java-based virtual machine, which means all the data scientists and the data engineers who want to work with Python are really working in sort of oil and water. Like if you get an error in Python, you can't tell whether the problems in Python or where it's in Spark. There's just an impedance mismatch between the two. And then at the same time, the whole world is now gravitating towards DBT because it's a very nice and simple way to compose these data processing pipelines, and people are using either SQL in DBT or Python in DBT, and that kind of is a substitute for doing it all in Spark. So it's under threat even before we get to that semantic layer, it so happens that DBT itself is becoming the authoring environment for the semantic layer with business intelligent metrics. But that's again, this is the second element that's under direct substitution and competitive threat. >> Okay, let's now move down to the third element, which is the Photon. Photon is Databricks' BI Lakehouse, which has integration with the Databricks tooling, which is very rich, it's newer. And it's also not well suited for high concurrency and low latency use cases, which we think are going to increasingly become the norm over time. George, the call out threat here is customers want to connect everything to a semantic layer. Explain your thinking here and why this is a potential threat to Databricks? >> Okay, so two issues here. What you were touching on, which is the high concurrency, low latency, when people are running like thousands of dashboards and data is streaming in, that's a problem because SQL data warehouse, the query engine, something like that matures over five to 10 years. It's one of these things, the joke that Andy Jassy makes just in general, he's really talking about Azure, but there's no compression algorithm for experience. The Snowflake guy started more than five years earlier, and for a bunch of reasons, that lead is not something that Databricks can shrink. They'll always be behind. So that's why Snowflake has transactional tables now and we can get into that in another show. But the key point is, so near term, it's struggling to keep up with the use cases that are core to business intelligence, which is highly concurrent, lots of users doing interactive query. But then when you get to a semantic layer, that's when you need to be able to query data that might have thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of joins. And that's a SQL query engine, traditional SQL query engine is just not built for that. That's the core problem of traditional relational databases. >> Now this is a quick aside. We always talk about Snowflake and Databricks in sort of the same context. We're not necessarily saying that Snowflake is in a position to tackle all these problems. We'll deal with that separately. So we don't mean to imply that, but we're just sort of laying out some of the things that Snowflake or rather Databricks customers we think, need to be thinking about and having conversations with Databricks about and we hope to have them as well. We'll come back to that in terms of sort of strategic options. But finally, when come back to the table, we have Databricks' AI/ML Tool Chain, which has been an awesome capability for the data science crowd. It's comprehensive, it's a one-stop shop solution, but the kicker here is that it's optimized for supervised model building. And the concern is that foundational models like GPT could cannibalize the current Databricks tooling, but George, can't Databricks, like other software companies, integrate foundation model capabilities into its platform? >> Okay, so the sound bite answer to that is sure, IBM 3270 terminals could call out to a graphical user interface when they're running on the XT terminal, but they're not exactly good citizens in that world. The core issue is Databricks has this wonderful end-to-end tool chain for training, deploying, monitoring, running inference on supervised models. But the paradigm there is the customer builds and trains and deploys each model for each feature or application. In a world of foundation models which are pre-trained and unsupervised, the entire tool chain is different. So it's not like Databricks can junk everything they've done and start over with all their engineers. They have to keep maintaining what they've done in the old world, but they have to build something new that's optimized for the new world. It's a classic technology transition and their mentality appears to be, "Oh, we'll support the new stuff from our old stuff." Which is suboptimal, and as we'll talk about, their biggest patron and the company that put them on the map, Microsoft, really stopped working on their old stuff three years ago so that they could build a new tool chain optimized for this new world. >> Yeah, and so let's sort of close with what we think the options are and decisions that Databricks has for its future architecture. They're smart people. I mean we've had Ali Ghodsi on many times, super impressive. I think they've got to be keenly aware of the limitations, what's going on with foundation models. But at any rate, here in this chart, we lay out sort of three scenarios. One is re-architect the platform by incrementally adopting new technologies. And example might be to layer a graph query engine on top of its stack. They could license key technologies like graph database, they could get aggressive on M&A and buy-in, relational knowledge graphs, semantic technologies, vector database technologies. George, as David Floyer always says, "A lot of ways to skin a cat." We've seen companies like, even think about EMC maintained its relevance through M&A for many, many years. George, give us your thought on each of these strategic options? >> Okay, I find this question the most challenging 'cause remember, I used to be an equity research analyst. I worked for Frank Quattrone, we were one of the top tech shops in the banking industry, although this is 20 years ago. But the M&A team was the top team in the industry and everyone wanted them on their side. And I remember going to meetings with these CEOs, where Frank and the bankers would say, "You want us for your M&A work because we can do better." And they really could do better. But in software, it's not like with EMC in hardware because with hardware, it's easier to connect different boxes. With software, the whole point of a software company is to integrate and architect the components so they fit together and reinforce each other, and that makes M&A harder. You can do it, but it takes a long time to fit the pieces together. Let me give you examples. If they put a graph query engine, let's say something like TinkerPop, on top of, I don't even know if it's possible, but let's say they put it on top of Delta Lake, then you have this graph query engine talking to their storage layer, Delta Lake. But if you want to do analysis, you got to put the data in Photon, which is not really ideal for highly connected data. If you license a graph database, then most of your data is in the Delta Lake and how do you sync it with the graph database? If you do sync it, you've got data in two places, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a unified repository. I find this semantic layer option in number three actually more promising, because that's something that you can layer on top of the storage layer that you have already. You just have to figure out then how to have your query engines talk to that. What I'm trying to highlight is, it's easy as an analyst to say, "You can buy this company or license that technology." But the really hard work is making it all work together and that is where the challenge is. >> Yeah, and well look, I thank you for laying that out. We've seen it, certainly Microsoft and Oracle. I guess you might argue that well, Microsoft had a monopoly in its desktop software and was able to throw off cash for a decade plus while it's stock was going sideways. Oracle had won the database wars and had amazing margins and cash flow to be able to do that. Databricks isn't even gone public yet, but I want to close with some of the players to watch. Alex, if you'd bring that back up, number four here. AWS, we talked about some of their options with S3 and it's not just AWS, it's blob storage, object storage. Microsoft, as you sort of alluded to, was an early go-to market channel for Databricks. We didn't address that really. So maybe in the closing comments we can. Google obviously, Snowflake of course, we're going to dissect their options in future Breaking Analysis. Dbt labs, where do they fit? Bob Muglia's company, Relational.ai, why are these players to watch George, in your opinion? >> So everyone is trying to assemble and integrate the pieces that would make building data applications, data products easy. And the critical part isn't just assembling a bunch of pieces, which is traditionally what AWS did. It's a Unix ethos, which is we give you the tools, you put 'em together, 'cause you then have the maximum choice and maximum power. So what the hyperscalers are doing is they're taking their key value stores, in the case of ASW it's DynamoDB, in the case of Azure it's Cosmos DB, and each are putting a graph query engine on top of those. So they have a unified storage and graph database engine, like all the data would be collected in the key value store. Then you have a graph database, that's how they're going to be presenting a foundation for building these data apps. Dbt labs is putting a semantic layer on top of data lakes and data warehouses and as we'll talk about, I'm sure in the future, that makes it easier to swap out the underlying data platform or swap in new ones for specialized use cases. Snowflake, what they're doing, they're so strong in data management and with their transactional tables, what they're trying to do is take in the operational data that used to be in the province of many state stores like MongoDB and say, "If you manage that data with us, it'll be connected to your analytic data without having to send it through a pipeline." And that's hugely valuable. Relational.ai is the wildcard, 'cause what they're trying to do, it's almost like a holy grail where you're trying to take the expressiveness of connecting all your data in a graph but making it as easy to query as you've always had it in a SQL database or I should say, in a relational database. And if they do that, it's sort of like, it'll be as easy to program these data apps as a spreadsheet was compared to procedural languages, like BASIC or Pascal. That's the implications of Relational.ai. >> Yeah, and again, we talked before, why can't you just throw this all in memory? We're talking in that example of really getting down to differences in how you lay the data out on disk in really, new database architecture, correct? >> Yes. And that's why it's not clear that you could take a data lake or even a Snowflake and why you can't put a relational knowledge graph on those. You could potentially put a graph database, but it'll be compromised because to really do what Relational.ai has done, which is the ease of Relational on top of the power of graph, you actually need to change how you're storing your data on disk or even in memory. So you can't, in other words, it's not like, oh we can add graph support to Snowflake, 'cause if you did that, you'd have to change, or in your data lake, you'd have to change how the data is physically laid out. And then that would break all the tools that talk to that currently. >> What in your estimation, is the timeframe where this becomes critical for a Databricks and potentially Snowflake and others? I mentioned earlier midterm, are we talking three to five years here? Are we talking end of decade? What's your radar say? >> I think something surprising is going on that's going to sort of come up the tailpipe and take everyone by storm. All the hype around business intelligence metrics, which is what we used to put in our dashboards where bookings, billings, revenue, customer, those things, those were the key artifacts that used to live in definitions in your BI tools, and DBT has basically created a standard for defining those so they live in your data pipeline or they're defined in their data pipeline and executed in the data warehouse or data lake in a shared way, so that all tools can use them. This sounds like a digression, it's not. All this stuff about data mesh, data fabric, all that's going on is we need a semantic layer and the business intelligence metrics are defining common semantics for your data. And I think we're going to find by the end of this year, that metrics are how we annotate all our analytic data to start adding common semantics to it. And we're going to find this semantic layer, it's not three to five years off, it's going to be staring us in the face by the end of this year. >> Interesting. And of course SVB today was shut down. We're seeing serious tech headwinds, and oftentimes in these sort of downturns or flat turns, which feels like this could be going on for a while, we emerge with a lot of new players and a lot of new technology. George, we got to leave it there. Thank you to George Gilbert for excellent insights and input for today's episode. I want to thank Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast, of course Ken Schiffman as well. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our EIC over at Siliconangle.com, he does some great editing. Remember all these episodes, they're available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search Breaking Analysis Podcast, we publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, or you can email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com, or DM me @DVellante. Comment on our LinkedIn post, and please do check out ETR.ai, great survey data, enterprise tech focus, phenomenal. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis.

(gentle upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier host here in Palo Alto, California. theCUBE's second year covering International Women's Day. It's been a great celebration of all the smart leaders in the world who are making a difference from all kinds of backgrounds, from technology to business and everything in between. Today we've got a great guest, Dominique Bastos, who's the senior Vice President of Cloud at Persistent Systems, formerly with AWS. That's where we first met at re:Invent. Dominique, great to have you on the program here for International Women's Day. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John, for having me back on theCUBE. This is an honor, especially given the theme. >> Well, I'm excited to have you on, I consider you one of those typecast personas where you've kind of done a lot of things. You're powerful, you've got great business acumen you're technical, and we're in a world where, you know the world's coming completely digital and 50% of the world is women, 51%, some say. So you got mostly male dominated industry and you have a dual engineering background and that's super impressive as well. Again, technical world, male dominated you're in there in the mix. What inspires you to get these engineering degrees? >> I think even it was more so shifted towards males. When I had the inspiration to go to engineering school I was accused as a young girl of being a tomboy and fiddling around with all my brother's toys versus focusing on my dolls and other kind of stereotypical toys that you would give a girl. I really had a curiosity for building, a curiosity for just breaking things apart and putting them back together. I was very lucky in that my I guess you call it primary school, maybe middle school, had a program for, it was like electronics, that was the class electronics. So building circuit boards and things like that. And I really enjoyed that aspect of building. I think it was more actually going into engineering school. Picking that as a discipline was a little bit, my mom's reaction to when I announced that I wanted to do engineering which was, "No, that's for boys." >> Really. >> And that really, you know, I think she, it came from a good place in trying to protect me from what she has experienced herself in terms of how women are received in those spaces. So I kind of shrugged it off and thought "Okay, well I'm definitely now going to do this." >> (laughs) If I was told not to, you're going to do it. >> I was told not to, that's all I needed to hear. And also, I think my passion was to design cars and I figured if I enroll in an industrial engineering program I could focus on ergonomic design and ultimately, you know have a career doing something that I'm passionate about. So yeah, so my inspiration was kind of a little bit of don't do this, a lot of curiosity. I'm also a very analytical person. I've been, and I don't know what the science is around left right brain to be honest, but been told that I'm a very much a logical person versus a feeler. So I don't know if that's good or bad. >> Straight shooter. What were your engineering degrees if you don't mind sharing? >> So I did industrial engineering and so I did a dual degree, industrial engineering and robotics. At the time it was like a manufacturing robotics program. It was very, very cool because we got to, I mean now looking back, the evolution of robotics is just insane. But you, you know, programmed a robotic arm to pick things up. I actually crashed the Civil Engineering School's Concrete Canoe Building Competition where you literally have to design a concrete canoe and do all the load testing and the strength testing of the materials and basically then, you know you go against other universities to race the canoe in a body of water. We did that at, in Alabama and in Georgia. So I was lucky to experience that two times. It was a lot of fun. >> But you knew, so you knew, deep down, you were technical you had a nerd vibe you were geeking out on math, tech, robotics. What happened next? I mean, what were some of the challenges you faced? How did you progress forward? Did you have any blockers and roadblocks in front of you and how did you handle those? >> Yeah, I mean I had, I had a very eye-opening experience with, in my freshman year of engineering school. I kind of went in gung-ho with zero hesitation, all the confidence in the world, 'cause I was always a very big nerd academically, I hate admitting this but myself and somebody else got most intellectual, voted by the students in high school. It's like, you don't want to be voted most intellectual when you're in high school. >> Now it's a big deal. (laughs) >> Yeah, you want to be voted like popular or anything like that? No, I was a nerd, but in engineering school, it's a, it was very humbling. That whole confidence that I had. I experienced prof, ooh, I don't want to name the school. Everybody can google it though, but, so anyway so I had experience with some professors that actually looked at me and said, "You're in the wrong program. This is difficult." I, and I think I've shared this before in other forums where, you know, my thermodynamic teacher basically told me "Cheerleading's down the hall," and it it was a very shocking thing to hear because it really made me wonder like, what am I up against here? Is this what it's going to be like going forward? And I decided not to pay attention to that. I think at the moment when you hear something like that you just, you absorb it and you also don't know how to react. And I decided immediately to just walk right past him and sit down front center in the class. In my head I was cursing him, of course, 'cause I mean, let's be real. And I was like, I'm going to show this bleep bleep. And proceeded to basically set the curve class crushed it and was back to be the teacher's assistant. So I think that was one. >> But you became his teacher assistant after, or another one? >> Yeah, I gave him a mini speech. I said, do not do this. You, you could, you could have broken me and if you would've done this to somebody who wasn't as steadfast in her goals or whatever, I was really focused like I'm doing this, I would've backed out potentially and said, you know this isn't something I want to experience on the daily. So I think that was actually a good experience because it gave me an opportunity to understand what I was up against but also double down in how I was going to deal with it. >> Nice to slay the misogynistic teachers who typecast people. Now you had a very technical career but also you had a great career at AWS on the business side you've handled 'em all of the big accounts, I won't say the names, but like we're talking about monster accounts, sales and now basically it's not really selling, you're managing a big account, it's like a big business. It's a business development thing. Technical to business transition, how do you handle that? Was that something you were natural for? Obviously you, you stared down the naysayers out of the gate in college and then in business, did that continue and how did you drive through that? >> So I think even when I was coming out of university I knew that I wanted to have a balance between the engineering program and business. A lot of my colleagues went on to do their PEs so continue to get their masters basically in engineering or their PhDs in engineering. I didn't really have an interest for that. I did international business and finance as my MBA because I wanted to explore the ability of taking what I had learned in engineering school and applying it to building businesses. I mean, at the time I didn't have it in my head that I would want to do startups but I definitely knew that I wanted to get a feel for what are they learning in business school that I missed out in engineering school. So I think that helped me when I transitioned, well when I applied, I was asked to come apply at AWS and I kind of went, no I'm going to, the DNA is going to be rejected. >> You thought, you thought you'd be rejected from AWS. >> I thought I'd be, yeah, because I have very much a startup founder kind of disruptive personality. And to me, when I first saw AWS at the stage early 2016 I saw it as a corporation. Even though from a techie standpoint, I was like, these people are insane. This is amazing what they're building. But I didn't know what the cultural vibe would feel like. I had been with GE at the beginning of my career for almost three years. So I kind of equated AWS Amazon to GE given the size because in between, I had done startups. So when I went to AWS I think initially, and I do have to kind of shout out, you know Todd Weatherby basically was the worldwide leader for ProServe and it was being built, he built it and I went into ProServe to help from that standpoint. >> John: ProServe, Professional services >> Professional services, right. To help these big enterprise customers. And specifically my first customer was an amazing experience in taking, basically the company revolves around strategic selling, right? It's not like you take a salesperson with a conventional schooling that salespeople would have and plug them into AWS in 2016. It was very much a consultative strategic approach. And for me, having a technical background and loving to solve problems for customers, working with the team, I would say, it was a dream team that I joined. And also the ability to come to the table with a technical background, knowing how to interact with senior executives to help them envision where they want to go, and then to bring a team along with you to make that happen. I mean, that was like magical for me. I loved that experience. >> So you like the culture, I mean, Andy Jassy, I've interviewed many times, always talked about builders and been a builder mentality. You mentioned that earlier at the top of this interview you've always building things, curious and you mentioned potentially your confidence might have been shaken. So you, you had the confidence. So being a builder, you know, being curious and having confidence seems to be what your superpower is. A lot of people talk about the confidence angle. How important is that and how important is that for encouraging more women to get into tech? Because I still hear that all the time. Not that they don't have confidence, but there's so many signals that potentially could shake confidence in industry >> Yeah, that's actually a really good point that you're making. A lot of signals that women get could shake their confidence and that needs to be, I mean, it's easy to say that it should be innate. I mean that's kind of like textbook, "Oh it has to come from within." Of course it does. But also, you know, we need to understand that in a population where 50% of the population is women but only 7% of the positions in tech, and I don't know the most current number in tech leadership, is women, and probably a smaller percentage in the C-suite. When you're looking at a woman who's wanting to go up the trajectory in a tech company and then there's a subconscious understanding that there's a limit to how far you'll go, your confidence, you know, in even subconsciously gets shaken a little bit because despite your best efforts, you're already seeing the cap. I would say that we need to coach girls to speak confidently to navigate conflict versus running away from it, to own your own success and be secure in what you bring to the table. And then I think a very important thing is to celebrate each other and the wins that we see for women in tech, in the industry. >> That's awesome. What's, the, in your opinion, the, you look at that, the challenges for this next generation women, and women in general, what are some of the challenges for them and that they need to overcome today? I mean, obviously the world's changed for the better. Still not there. I mean the numbers one in four women, Rachel Thornton came on, former CMO of AWS, she's at MessageBird now. They had a study where only one in four women go to the executive board level. And so there's still, still numbers are bad and then the numbers still got to get up, up big time. That's, and the industry's working on that, but it's changed. But today, what are some of the challenges for this current generation and the next generation of women and how can we and the industry meet, we being us, women in the industry, be strong role models for them? >> Well, I think the challenge is one of how many women are there in the pipeline and what are we doing to retain them and how are we offering up the opportunities to fill. As you know, as Rachel said and I haven't had an opportunity to see her, in how are we giving them this opportunity to take up those seats in the C-suite right, in these leadership roles. And I think this is a little bit exacerbated with the pandemic in that, you know when everything shut down when people were going back to deal with family and work at the same time, for better or for worse the brunt of it fell on probably, you know the maternal type caregiver within the family unit. You know, I've been, I raised my daughter alone and for me, even without the pandemic it was a struggle constantly to balance the risk that I was willing to take to show up for those positions versus investing even more of that time raising a child, right? Nevermind the unconscious bias or cultural kind of expectations that you get from the male counterparts where there's zero understanding of what a mom might go through at home to then show up to a meeting, you know fully fresh and ready to kind of spit out some wisdom. It's like, you know, your kid just freaking lost their whatever and you know, they, so you have to sort a bunch of things out. I think the challenge that women are still facing and will we have to keep working at it is making sure that there's a good pipeline. A good amount of young ladies of people taking interest in tech. And then as they're, you know, going through the funnel at stages in their career, we're providing the mentoring we're, there's representation, right? To what they're aspiring to. We're celebrating their interest in the field, right? And, and I think also we're doing things to retain them, because again, the pandemic affected everybody. I think women specifically and I don't know the statistics but I was reading something about this were the ones to tend to kind of pull it back and say well now I need to be home with, you know you name how many kids and pets and the aging parents, people that got sick to take on that position. In addition to the career aspirations that they might have. We need to make it easier basically. >> I think that's a great call out and I appreciate you bringing that up about family and being a single mom. And by the way, you're savage warrior to doing that. It's amazing. You got to, I know you have a daughter in computer science at Stanford, I want to get to that in a second. But that empathy and I mentioned Rachel Thornton, who's the CMO MessageBird and former CMO of AWS. Her thing right now to your point is mentoring and sponsorship is very key. And her company and the video that's on the site here people should look at that and reference that. They talk a lot about that empathy of people's situation whether it's a single mom, family life, men and women but mainly women because they're the ones who people aren't having a lot of empathy for in that situation, as you called it out. This is huge. And I think remote work has opened up this whole aperture of everyone has to have a view into how people are coming to the table at work. So, you know, props are bringing that up, and I recommend everyone look at check out Rachel Thornton. So how do you balance that, that home life and talk about your daughter's journey because sounds like she's nerding out at Stanford 'cause you know Stanford's called Nerd Nation, that's their motto, so you must be proud. >> I am so proud, I'm so proud. And I will say, I have to admit, because I did encounter so many obstacles and so many hurdles in my journey, it's almost like I forgot that I should set that aside and not worry about my daughter. My hope for her was for her to kind of be artistic and a painter or go into something more lighthearted and fun because I just wanted to think, I guess my mom had the same idea, right? She, always been very driven. She, I want to say that I got very lucky that she picked me to be her mom. Biologically I'm her mom, but I told her she was like a little star that fell from the sky and I, and ended up with me. I think for me, balancing being a single mom and a career where I'm leading and mentoring and making big decisions that affect people's lives as well. You have to take the best of everything you get from each of those roles. And I think that the best way is play to your strengths, right? So having been kind of a nerd and very organized person and all about, you know, systems for effectiveness, I mean, industrial engineering, parenting for me was, I'm going to make it sound super annoying and horrible, but (laughs) >> It's funny, you know, Dave Vellante and I when we started SiliconANGLE and theCUBE years ago, one of the things we were all like sports lovers. So we liked sports and we are like we looked at the people in tech as tech athletes and except there's no men and women teams, it's one team. It's all one thing. So, you know, I consider you a tech athlete you're hard charging strong and professional and smart and beautiful and brilliant, all those good things. >> Thank you. >> Now this game is changing and okay, and you've done startups, and you've done corporate jobs, now you're in a new role. What's the current tech landscape from a, you know I won't say athletic per standpoint but as people who are smart. You have all kinds of different skill sets. You have the startup warriors, you have the folks who like to be in the middle of the corporate world grow up through corporate, climb the corporate ladder. You have investors, you have, you know, creatives. What have you enjoyed most and where do you see all the action? >> I mean, I think what I've enjoyed the most has been being able to bring all of the things that I feel I'm strong at and bring it together to apply that to whatever the problem is at hand, right? So kind of like, you know if you look at a renaissance man who can kind of pop in anywhere and, oh, he's good at, you know sports and he's good at reading and, or she's good at this or, take all of those strengths and somehow bring them together to deal with the issue at hand, versus breaking up your mindset into this is textbook what I learned and this is how business should be done and I'm going to draw these hard lines between personal life and work life, or between how you do selling and how you do engineering. So I think my, the thing that I loved, really loved about AWS was a lot of leaders saw something in me that I potentially didn't see, which was, yeah you might be great at running that big account but we need help over here doing go to market for a new product launch and boom, there you go. Now I'm in a different org helping solve that problem and getting something launched. And I think if you don't box yourself in to I'm only good at this, or, you know put a label on yourself as being the rockstar in that. It leaves room for opportunities to present themselves but also it leaves room within your own mind to see yourself as somebody capable of doing anything. Right, I don't know if I answered the question accurately. >> No, that's good, no, that's awesome. I love the sharing, Yeah, great, great share there. Question is, what do you see, what do you currently during now you're building a business of Persistent for the cloud, obviously AWS and Persistent's a leader global system integrator around the world, thousands and thousands of customers from what we know and been reporting on theCUBE, what's next for you? Where do you see yourself going? Obviously you're going to knock this out of the park. Where do you see yourself as you kind of look at the continuing journey of your mission, personal, professional what's on your mind? Where do you see yourself going next? >> Well, I think, you know, again, going back to not boxing yourself in. This role is an amazing one where I have an opportunity to take all the pieces of my career in tech and apply them to building a business within a business. And that involves all the goodness of coaching and mentoring and strategizing. And I'm loving it. I'm loving the opportunity to work with such great leaders. Persistent itself is very, very good at providing opportunities, very diverse opportunities. We just had a huge Semicolon; Hackathon. Some of the winners were females. The turnout was amazing in the CTO's office. We have very strong women leading the charge for innovation. I think to answer your question about the future and where I may see myself going next, I think now that my job, well they say the job is never done. But now that Chloe's kind of settled into Stanford and kind of doing her own thing, I have always had a passion to continue leading in a way that brings me to, into the fold a lot more. So maybe, you know, maybe in a VC firm partner mode or another, you know CEO role in a startup, or my own startup. I mean, I never, I don't know right now I'm super happy but you never know, you know where your drive might go. And I also want to be able to very deliberately be in a role where I can continue to mentor and support up and coming women in tech. >> Well, you got the smarts but you got really the building mentality, the curiosity and the confidence really sets you up nicely. Dominique great story, great inspiration. You're a role model for many women, young girls out there and women in tech and in celebration. It's a great day and thank you for sharing that story and all the good nuggets there. Appreciate you coming on theCUBE, and it's been my pleasure. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thank you so much for having me. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto getting all the content, check out the other interviews some amazing stories, lessons learned, and some, you know some funny stories and some serious stories. So have some fun and enjoy the rest of the videos here for International Women's Days, thanks for watching. (gentle inspirational music)

(mellow music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Startup Showcase. This is the closing panel session on AI machine learning, the top startups generating generative AI on AWS. It's a great panel. This is going to be the experts talking about riding the wave in generative AI. We got Ankur Mehrotra, who's the director and general manager of AI and machine learning at AWS, and Clem Delangue, co-founder and CEO of Hugging Face, and Ori Goshen, who's the co-founder and CEO of AI21 Labs. Ori from Tel Aviv dialing in, and rest coming in here on theCUBE. Appreciate you coming on for this closing session for the Startup Showcase. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> I'm super excited to have you all on. Hugging Face was recently in the news with the AWS relationship, so congratulations. Open source, open science, really driving the machine learning. And we got the AI21 Labs access to the LLMs, generating huge scale live applications, commercial applications, coming to the market, all powered by AWS. So everyone, congratulations on all your success, and thank you for headlining this panel. Let's get right into it. AWS is powering this wave here. We're seeing a lot of push here from applications. Ankur, set the table for us on the AI machine learning. It's not new, it's been goin' on for a while. Past three years have been significant advancements, but there's been a lot of work done in AI machine learning. Now it's released to the public. Everybody's super excited and now says, "Oh, the future's here!" It's kind of been going on for a while and baking. Now it's kind of coming out. What's your view here? Let's get it started. >> Yes, thank you. So, yeah, as you may be aware, Amazon has been in investing in machine learning research and development since quite some time now. And we've used machine learning to innovate and improve user experiences across different Amazon products, whether it's Alexa or Amazon.com. But we've also brought in our expertise to extend what we are doing in the space and add more generative AI technology to our AWS products and services, starting with CodeWhisperer, which is an AWS service that we announced a few months ago, which is, you can think of it as a coding companion as a service, which uses generative AI models underneath. And so this is a service that customers who have no machine learning expertise can just use. And we also are talking to customers, and we see a lot of excitement about generative AI, and customers who want to build these models themselves, who have the talent and the expertise and resources. For them, AWS has a number of different options and capabilities they can leverage, such as our custom silicon, such as Trainium and Inferentia, as well as distributed machine learning capabilities that we offer as part of SageMaker, which is an end-to-end machine learning development service. At the same time, many of our customers tell us that they're interested in not training and building these generative AI models from scratch, given they can be expensive and can require specialized talent and skills to build. And so for those customers, we are also making it super easy to bring in existing generative AI models into their machine learning development environment within SageMaker for them to use. So we recently announced our partnership with Hugging Face, where we are making it super easy for customers to bring in those models into their SageMaker development environment for fine tuning and deployment. And then we are also partnering with other proprietary model providers such as AI21 and others, where we making these generative AI models available within SageMaker for our customers to use. So our approach here is to really provide customers options and choices and help them accelerate their generative AI journey. >> Ankur, thank you for setting the table there. Clem and Ori, I want to get your take, because the riding the waves, the theme of this session, and to me being in California, I imagine the big surf, the big waves, the big talent out there. This is like alpha geeks, alpha coders, developers are really leaning into this. You're seeing massive uptake from the smartest people. Whether they're young or around, they're coming in with their kind of surfboards, (chuckles) if you will. These early adopters, they've been on this for a while; Now the waves are hitting. This is a big wave, everyone sees it. What are some of those early adopter devs doing? What are some of the use cases you're seeing right out of the gate? And what does this mean for the folks that are going to come in and get on this wave? Can you guys share your perspective on this? Because you're seeing the best talent now leaning into this. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from Hugging Face vantage points, it's not even a a wave, it's a tidal wave, or maybe even the tide itself. Because actually what we are seeing is that AI and machine learning is not something that you add to your products. It's very much a new paradigm to do all technology. It's this idea that we had in the past 15, 20 years, one way to build software and to build technology, which was writing a million lines of code, very rule-based, and then you get your product. Now what we are seeing is that every single product, every single feature, every single company is starting to adopt AI to build the next generation of technology. And that works both to make the existing use cases better, if you think of search, if you think of social network, if you think of SaaS, but also it's creating completely new capabilities that weren't possible with the previous paradigm. Now AI can generate text, it can generate image, it can describe your image, it can do so many new things that weren't possible before. >> It's going to really make the developers really productive, right? I mean, you're seeing the developer uptake strong, right? >> Yes, we have over 15,000 companies using Hugging Face now, and it keeps accelerating. I really think that maybe in like three, five years, there's not going to be any company not using AI. It's going to be really kind of the default to build all technology. >> Ori, weigh in on this. APIs, the cloud. Now I'm a developer, I want to have live applications, I want the commercial applications on this. What's your take? Weigh in here. >> Yeah, first, I absolutely agree. I mean, we're in the midst of a technology shift here. I think not a lot of people realize how big this is going to be. Just the number of possibilities is endless, and I think hard to imagine. And I don't think it's just the use cases. I think we can think of it as two separate categories. We'll see companies and products enhancing their offerings with these new AI capabilities, but we'll also see new companies that are AI first, that kind of reimagine certain experiences. They build something that wasn't possible before. And that's why I think it's actually extremely exciting times. And maybe more philosophically, I think now these large language models and large transformer based models are helping us people to express our thoughts and kind of making the bridge from our thinking to a creative digital asset in a speed we've never imagined before. I can write something down and get a piece of text, or an image, or a code. So I'll start by saying it's hard to imagine all the possibilities right now, but it's certainly big. And if I had to bet, I would say it's probably at least as big as the mobile revolution we've seen in the last 20 years. >> Yeah, this is the biggest. I mean, it's been compared to the Enlightenment Age. I saw the Wall Street Journal had a recent story on this. We've been saying that this is probably going to be bigger than all inflection points combined in the tech industry, given what transformation is coming. I guess I want to ask you guys, on the early adopters, we've been hearing on these interviews and throughout the industry that there's already a set of big companies, a set of companies out there that have a lot of data and they're already there, they're kind of tinkering. Kind of reminds me of the old hyper scaler days where they were building their own scale, and they're eatin' glass, spittin' nails out, you know, they're hardcore. Then you got everybody else kind of saying board level, "Hey team, how do I leverage this?" How do you see those two things coming together? You got the fast followers coming in behind the early adopters. What's it like for the second wave coming in? What are those conversations for those developers like? >> I mean, I think for me, the important switch for companies is to change their mindset from being kind of like a traditional software company to being an AI or machine learning company. And that means investing, hiring machine learning engineers, machine learning scientists, infrastructure in members who are working on how to put these models in production, team members who are able to optimize models, specialized models, customized models for the company's specific use cases. So it's really changing this mindset of how you build technology and optimize your company building around that. Things are moving so fast that I think now it's kind of like too late for low hanging fruits or small, small adjustments. I think it's important to realize that if you want to be good at that, and if you really want to surf this wave, you need massive investments. If there are like some surfers listening with this analogy of the wave, right, when there are waves, it's not enough just to stand and make a little bit of adjustments. You need to position yourself aggressively, paddle like crazy, and that's how you get into the waves. So that's what companies, in my opinion, need to do right now. >> Ori, what's your take on the generative models out there? We hear a lot about foundation models. What's your experience running end-to-end applications for large foundation models? Any insights you can share with the app developers out there who are looking to get in? >> Yeah, I think first of all, it's start create an economy, where it probably doesn't make sense for every company to create their own foundation models. You can basically start by using an existing foundation model, either open source or a proprietary one, and start deploying it for your needs. And then comes the second round when you are starting the optimization process. You bootstrap, whether it's a demo, or a small feature, or introducing new capability within your product, and then start collecting data. That data, and particularly the human feedback data, helps you to constantly improve the model, so you create this data flywheel. And I think we're now entering an era where customers have a lot of different choice of how they want to start their generative AI endeavor. And it's a good thing that there's a variety of choices. And the really amazing thing here is that every industry, any company you speak with, it could be something very traditional like industrial or financial, medical, really any company. I think peoples now start to imagine what are the possibilities, and seriously think what's their strategy for adopting this generative AI technology. And I think in that sense, the foundation model actually enabled this to become scalable. So the barrier to entry became lower; Now the adoption could actually accelerate. >> There's a lot of integration aspects here in this new wave that's a little bit different. Before it was like very monolithic, hardcore, very brittle. A lot more integration, you see a lot more data coming together. I have to ask you guys, as developers come in and grow, I mean, when I went to college and you were a software engineer, I mean, I got a degree in computer science, and software engineering, that's all you did was code, (chuckles) you coded. Now, isn't it like everyone's a machine learning engineer at this point? Because that will be ultimately the science. So, (chuckles) you got open source, you got open software, you got the communities. Swami called you guys the GitHub of machine learning, Hugging Face is the GitHub of machine learning, mainly because that's where people are going to code. So this is essentially, machine learning is computer science. What's your reaction to that? >> Yes, my co-founder Julien at Hugging Face have been having this thing for quite a while now, for over three years, which was saying that actually software engineering as we know it today is a subset of machine learning, instead of the other way around. People would call us crazy a few years ago when we're seeing that. But now we are realizing that you can actually code with machine learning. So machine learning is generating code. And we are starting to see that every software engineer can leverage machine learning through open models, through APIs, through different technology stack. So yeah, it's not crazy anymore to think that maybe in a few years, there's going to be more people doing AI and machine learning. However you call it, right? Maybe you'll still call them software engineers, maybe you'll call them machine learning engineers. But there might be more of these people in a couple of years than there is software engineers today. >> I bring this up as more tongue in cheek as well, because Ankur, infrastructure's co is what made Cloud great, right? That's kind of the DevOps movement. But here the shift is so massive, there will be a game-changing philosophy around coding. Machine learning as code, you're starting to see CodeWhisperer, you guys have had coding companions for a while on AWS. So this is a paradigm shift. How is the cloud playing into this for you guys? Because to me, I've been riffing on some interviews where it's like, okay, you got the cloud going next level. This is an example of that, where there is a DevOps-like moment happening with machine learning, whether you call it coding or whatever. It's writing code on its own. Can you guys comment on what this means on top of the cloud? What comes out of the scale? What comes out of the benefit here? >> Absolutely, so- >> Well first- >> Oh, go ahead. >> Yeah, so I think as far as scale is concerned, I think customers are really relying on cloud to make sure that the applications that they build can scale along with the needs of their business. But there's another aspect to it, which is that until a few years ago, John, what we saw was that machine learning was a data scientist heavy activity. They were data scientists who were taking the data and training models. And then as machine learning found its way more and more into production and actual usage, we saw the MLOps become a thing, and MLOps engineers become more involved into the process. And then we now are seeing, as machine learning is being used to solve more business critical problems, we're seeing even legal and compliance teams get involved. We are seeing business stakeholders more engaged. So, more and more machine learning is becoming an activity that's not just performed by data scientists, but is performed by a team and a group of people with different skills. And for them, we as AWS are focused on providing the best tools and services for these different personas to be able to do their job and really complete that end-to-end machine learning story. So that's where, whether it's tools related to MLOps or even for folks who cannot code or don't know any machine learning. For example, we launched SageMaker Canvas as a tool last year, which is a UI-based tool which data analysts and business analysts can use to build machine learning models. So overall, the spectrum in terms of persona and who can get involved in the machine learning process is expanding, and the cloud is playing a big role in that process. >> Ori, Clem, can you guys weigh in too? 'Cause this is just another abstraction layer of scale. What's it mean for you guys as you look forward to your customers and the use cases that you're enabling? >> Yes, I think what's important is that the AI companies and providers and the cloud kind of work together. That's how you make a seamless experience and you actually reduce the barrier to entry for this technology. So that's what we've been super happy to do with AWS for the past few years. We actually announced not too long ago that we are doubling down on our partnership with AWS. We're excited to have many, many customers on our shared product, the Hugging Face deep learning container on SageMaker. And we are working really closely with the Inferentia team and the Trainium team to release some more exciting stuff in the coming weeks and coming months. So I think when you have an ecosystem and a system where the AWS and the AI providers, AI startups can work hand in hand, it's to the benefit of the customers and the companies, because it makes it orders of magnitude easier for them to adopt this new paradigm to build technology AI. >> Ori, this is a scale on reasoning too. The data's out there and making sense out of it, making it reason, getting comprehension, having it make decisions is next, isn't it? And you need scale for that. >> Yes. Just a comment about the infrastructure side. So I think really the purpose is to streamline and make these technologies much more accessible. And I think we'll see, I predict that we'll see in the next few years more and more tooling that make this technology much more simple to consume. And I think it plays a very important role. There's so many aspects, like the monitoring the models and their kind of outputs they produce, and kind of containing and running them in a production environment. There's so much there to build on, the infrastructure side will play a very significant role. >> All right, that's awesome stuff. I'd love to change gears a little bit and get a little philosophy here around AI and how it's going to transform, if you guys don't mind. There's been a lot of conversations around, on theCUBE here as well as in some industry areas, where it's like, okay, all the heavy lifting is automated away with machine learning and AI, the complexity, there's some efficiencies, it's horizontal and scalable across all industries. Ankur, good point there. Everyone's going to use it for something. And a lot of stuff gets brought to the table with large language models and other things. But the key ingredient will be proprietary data or human input, or some sort of AI whisperer kind of role, or prompt engineering, people are saying. So with that being said, some are saying it's automating intelligence. And that creativity will be unleashed from this. If the heavy lifting goes away and AI can fill the void, that shifts the value to the intellect or the input. And so that means data's got to come together, interact, fuse, and understand each other. This is kind of new. I mean, old school AI was, okay, got a big model, I provisioned it long time, very expensive. Now it's all free flowing. Can you guys comment on where you see this going with this freeform, data flowing everywhere, heavy lifting, and then specialization? >> Yeah, I think- >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, I think, so what we are seeing with these large language models or generative models is that they're really good at creating stuff. But I think it's also important to recognize their limitations. They're not as good at reasoning and logic. And I think now we're seeing great enthusiasm, I think, which is justified. And the next phase would be how to make these systems more reliable. How to inject more reasoning capabilities into these models, or augment with other mechanisms that actually perform more reasoning so we can achieve more reliable results. And we can count on these models to perform for critical tasks, whether it's medical tasks, legal tasks. We really want to kind of offload a lot of the intelligence to these systems. And then we'll have to get back, we'll have to make sure these are reliable, we'll have to make sure we get some sort of explainability that we can understand the process behind the generated results that we received. So I think this is kind of the next phase of systems that are based on these generated models. >> Clem, what's your view on this? Obviously you're at open community, open source has been around, it's been a great track record, proven model. I'm assuming creativity's going to come out of the woodwork, and if we can automate open source contribution, and relationships, and onboarding more developers, there's going to be unleashing of creativity. >> Yes, it's been so exciting on the open source front. We all know Bert, Bloom, GPT-J, T5, Stable Diffusion, that work up. The previous or the current generation of open source models that are on Hugging Face. It has been accelerating in the past few months. So I'm super excited about ControlNet right now that is really having a lot of impact, which is kind of like a way to control the generation of images. Super excited about Flan UL2, which is like a new model that has been recently released and is open source. So yeah, it's really fun to see the ecosystem coming together. Open source has been the basis for traditional software, with like open source programming languages, of course, but also all the great open source that we've gotten over the years. So we're happy to see that the same thing is happening for machine learning and AI, and hopefully can help a lot of companies reduce a little bit the barrier to entry. So yeah, it's going to be exciting to see how it evolves in the next few years in that respect. >> I think the developer productivity angle that's been talked about a lot in the industry will be accelerated significantly. I think security will be enhanced by this. I think in general, applications are going to transform at a radical rate, accelerated, incredible rate. So I think it's not a big wave, it's the water, right? I mean, (chuckles) it's the new thing. My final question for you guys, if you don't mind, I'd love to get each of you to answer the question I'm going to ask you, which is, a lot of conversations around data. Data infrastructure's obviously involved in this. And the common thread that I'm hearing is that every company that looks at this is asking themselves, if we don't rebuild our company, start thinking about rebuilding our business model around AI, we might be dinosaurs, we might be extinct. And it reminds me that scene in Moneyball when, at the end, it's like, if we're not building the model around your model, every company will be out of business. What's your advice to companies out there that are having those kind of moments where it's like, okay, this is real, this is next gen, this is happening. I better start thinking and putting into motion plans to refactor my business, 'cause it's happening, business transformation is happening on the cloud. This kind of puts an exclamation point on, with the AI, as a next step function. Big increase in value. So it's an opportunity for leaders. Ankur, we'll start with you. What's your advice for folks out there thinking about this? Do they put their toe in the water? Do they jump right into the deep end? What's your advice? >> Yeah, John, so we talk to a lot of customers, and customers are excited about what's happening in the space, but they often ask us like, "Hey, where do we start?" So we always advise our customers to do a lot of proof of concepts, understand where they can drive the biggest ROI. And then also leverage existing tools and services to move fast and scale, and try and not reinvent the wheel where it doesn't need to be. That's basically our advice to customers. >> Get it. Ori, what's your advice to folks who are scratching their head going, "I better jump in here. "How do I get started?" What's your advice? >> So I actually think that need to think about it really economically. Both on the opportunity side and the challenges. So there's a lot of opportunities for many companies to actually gain revenue upside by building these new generative features and capabilities. On the other hand, of course, this would probably affect the cogs, and incorporating these capabilities could probably affect the cogs. So I think we really need to think carefully about both of these sides, and also understand clearly if this is a project or an F word towards cost reduction, then the ROI is pretty clear, or revenue amplifier, where there's, again, a lot of different opportunities. So I think once you think about this in a structured way, I think, and map the different initiatives, then it's probably a good way to start and a good way to start thinking about these endeavors. >> Awesome. Clem, what's your take on this? What's your advice, folks out there? >> Yes, all of these are very good advice already. Something that you said before, John, that I disagreed a little bit, a lot of people are talking about the data mode and proprietary data. Actually, when you look at some of the organizations that have been building the best models, they don't have specialized or unique access to data. So I'm not sure that's so important today. I think what's important for companies, and it's been the same for the previous generation of technology, is their ability to build better technology faster than others. And in this new paradigm, that means being able to build machine learning faster than others, and better. So that's how, in my opinion, you should approach this. And kind of like how can you evolve your company, your teams, your products, so that you are able in the long run to build machine learning better and faster than your competitors. And if you manage to put yourself in that situation, then that's when you'll be able to differentiate yourself to really kind of be impactful and get results. That's really hard to do. It's something really different, because machine learning and AI is a different paradigm than traditional software. So this is going to be challenging, but I think if you manage to nail that, then the future is going to be very interesting for your company. >> That's a great point. Thanks for calling that out. I think this all reminds me of the cloud days early on. If you went to the cloud early, you took advantage of it when the pandemic hit. If you weren't native in the cloud, you got hamstrung by that, you were flatfooted. So just get in there. (laughs) Get in the cloud, get into AI, you're going to be good. Thanks for for calling that. Final parting comments, what's your most exciting thing going on right now for you guys? Ori, Clem, what's the most exciting thing on your plate right now that you'd like to share with folks? >> I mean, for me it's just the diversity of use cases and really creative ways of companies leveraging this technology. Every day I speak with about two, three customers, and I'm continuously being surprised by the creative ideas. And the future is really exciting of what can be achieved here. And also I'm amazed by the pace that things move in this industry. It's just, there's not at dull moment. So, definitely exciting times. >> Clem, what are you most excited about right now? >> For me, it's all the new open source models that have been released in the past few weeks, and that they'll keep being released in the next few weeks. I'm also super excited about more and more companies getting into this capability of chaining different models and different APIs. I think that's a very, very interesting development, because it creates new capabilities, new possibilities, new functionalities that weren't possible before. You can plug an API with an open source embedding model, with like a no-geo transcription model. So that's also very exciting. This capability of having more interoperable machine learning will also, I think, open a lot of interesting things in the future. >> Clem, congratulations on your success at Hugging Face. Please pass that on to your team. Ori, congratulations on your success, and continue to, just day one. I mean, it's just the beginning. It's not even scratching the service. Ankur, I'll give you the last word. What are you excited for at AWS? More cloud goodness coming here with AI. Give you the final word. >> Yeah, so as both Clem and Ori said, I think the research in the space is moving really, really fast, so we are excited about that. But we are also excited to see the speed at which enterprises and other AWS customers are applying machine learning to solve real business problems, and the kind of results they're seeing. So when they come back to us and tell us the kind of improvement in their business metrics and overall customer experience that they're driving and they're seeing real business results, that's what keeps us going and inspires us to continue inventing on their behalf. >> Gentlemen, thank you so much for this awesome high impact panel. Ankur, Clem, Ori, congratulations on all your success. We'll see you around. Thanks for coming on. Generative AI, riding the wave, it's a tidal wave, it's the water, it's all happening. All great stuff. This is season three, episode one of AWS Startup Showcase closing panel. This is the AI ML episode, the top startups building generative AI on AWS. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (mellow music)

(chill electronic music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startups Showcase, AI and machine learning, the top startups building generative AI on AWS. This is the season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talk about AI and machine learning. Can't believe it's three years and season one. I'm your host, John Furrier. Got a great guest today, we're joined by Joseph Nelson, the co-founder and CEO of Roboflow, doing some cutting edge stuff around computer vision and really at the front end of this massive wave coming around, large language models, computer vision. The next gen AI is here, and it's just getting started. We haven't even scratched a service. Thanks for joining us today. >> Thanks for having me. >> So you got to love the large language model, foundation models, really educating the mainstream world. ChatGPT has got everyone in the frenzy. This is educating the world around this next gen AI capabilities, enterprise, image and video data, all a big part of it. I mean the edge of the network, Mobile World Conference is happening right now, this month, and it's just ending up, it's just continue to explode. Video is huge. So take us through the company, do a quick explanation of what you guys are doing, when you were founded. Talk about what the company's mission is, and what's your North Star, why do you exist? >> Yeah, Roboflow exists to really kind of make the world programmable. I like to say make the world be read and write access. And our North Star is enabling developers, predominantly, to build that future. If you look around, anything that you see will have software related to it, and can kind of be turned into software. The limiting reactant though, is how to enable computers and machines to understand things as well as people can. And in a lot of ways, computer vision is that missing element that enables anything that you see to become software. So in the virtue of, if software is eating the world, computer vision kind of makes the aperture infinitely wide. It's something that I kind of like, the way I like to frame it. And the capabilities are there, the open source models are there, the amount of data is there, the computer capabilities are only improving annually, but there's a pretty big dearth of tooling, and an early but promising sign of the explosion of use cases, models, and data sets that companies, developers, hobbyists alike will need to bring these capabilities to bear. So Roboflow is in the game of building the community around that capability, building the use cases that allow developers and enterprises to use computer vision, and providing the tooling for companies and developers to be able to add computer vision, create better data sets, and deploy to production, quickly, easily, safely, invaluably. >> You know, Joseph, the word in production is actually real now. You're seeing a lot more people doing in production activities. That's a real hot one and usually it's slower, but it's gone faster, and I think that's going to be more the same. And I think the parallel between what we're seeing on the large language models coming into computer vision, and as you mentioned, video's data, right? I mean we're doing video right now, we're transcribing it into a transcript, linking up to your linguistics, times and the timestamp, I mean everything's data and that really kind of feeds. So this connection between what we're seeing, the large language and computer vision are coming together kind of cousins, brothers. I mean, how would you compare, how would you explain to someone, because everyone's like on this wave of watching people bang out their homework assignments, and you know, write some hacks on code with some of the open AI technologies, there is a corollary directly related to to the vision side. Can you explain? >> Yeah, the rise of large language models are showing what's possible, especially with text, and I think increasingly will get multimodal as the images and video become ingested. Though there's kind of this still core missing element of basically like understanding. So the rise of large language models kind of create this new area of generative AI, and generative AI in the context of computer vision is a lot of, you know, creating video and image assets and content. There's also this whole surface area to understanding what's already created. Basically digitizing physical, real world things. I mean the Metaverse can't be built if we don't know how to mirror or create or identify the objects that we want to interact with in our everyday lives. And where computer vision comes to play in, especially what we've seen at Roboflow is, you know, a little over a hundred thousand developers now have built with our tools. That's to the tune of a hundred million labeled open source images, over 10,000 pre-trained models. And they've kind of showcased to us all of the ways that computer vision is impacting and bringing the world to life. And these are things that, you know, even before large language models and generative AI, you had pretty impressive capabilities, and when you add the two together, it actually unlocks these kind of new capabilities. So for example, you know, one of our users actually powers the broadcast feeds at Wimbledon. So here we're talking about video, we're streaming, we're doing things live, we've got folks that are cropping and making sure we look good, and audio/visual all plugged in correctly. When you broadcast Wimbledon, you'll notice that the camera controllers need to do things like track the ball, which is moving at extremely high speeds and zoom crop, pan tilt, as well as determine if the ball bounced in or out. The very controversial but critical key to a lot of tennis matches. And a lot of that has been historically done with the trained, but fallible human eye and computer vision is, you know, well suited for this task to say, how do we track, pan, tilt, zoom, and see, track the tennis ball in real time, run at 30 plus frames per second, and do it all on the edge. And those are capabilities that, you know, were kind of like science fiction, maybe even a decade ago, and certainly five years ago. Now the interesting thing, is that with the advent of of generative AI, you can start to do things like create your own training data sets, or kind of create logic around once you have this visual input. And teams at Tesla have actually been speaking about, of course the autopilot team's focused on doing vision tasks, but they've combined large language models to add reasoning and logic. So given that you see, let's say the tennis ball, what do you want to do? And being able to combine the capabilities of what LLM's represent, which is really a lot of basically, core human reasoning and logic, with computer vision for the inputs of what's possible, creates these new capabilities, let alone multimodality, which I'm sure we'll talk more about. >> Yeah, and it's really, I mean it's almost intoxicating. It's amazing that this is so capable because the cloud scales here, you got the edge developing, you can decouple compute power, and let Moore's law and all the new silicone and the processors and the GPUs do their thing, and you got open source booming. You're kind of getting at this next segment I wanted to get into, which is the, how people should be thinking about these advances of the computer vision. So this is now a next wave, it's here. I mean I'd love to have that for baseball because I'm always like, "Oh, it should have been a strike." I'm sure that's going to be coming soon, but what is the computer vision capable of doing today? I guess that's my first question. You hit some of it, unpack that a little bit. What does general AI mean in computer vision? What's the new thing? Because there are old technology's been around, proprietary, bolted onto hardware, but hardware advances at a different pace, but now you got new capabilities, generative AI for vision, what does that mean? >> Yeah, so computer vision, you know, at its core is basically enabling machines, computers, to understand, process, and act on visual data as effective or more effective than people can. Traditionally this has been, you know, task types like classification, which you know, identifying if a given image belongs in a certain category of goods on maybe a retail site, is the shoes or is it clothing? Or object detection, which is, you know, creating bounding boxes, which allows you to do things like count how many things are present, or maybe measure the speed of something, or trigger an alert when something becomes visible in frame that wasn't previously visible in frame, or instant segmentation where you're creating pixel wise segmentations for both instance and semantic segmentation, where you often see these kind of beautiful visuals of the polygon surrounding objects that you see. Then you have key point detection, which is where you see, you know, athletes, and each of their joints are kind of outlined is another more traditional type problem in signal processing and computer vision. With generative AI, you kind of get a whole new class of problem types that are opened up. So in a lot of ways I think about generative AI in computer vision as some of the, you know, problems that you aimed to tackle, might still be better suited for one of the previous task types we were discussing. Some of those problem types may be better suited for using a generative technique, and some are problem types that just previously wouldn't have been possible absent generative AI. And so if you make that kind of Venn diagram in your head, you can think about, okay, you know, visual question answering is a task type where if I give you an image and I say, you know, "How many people are in this image?" We could either build an object detection model that might count all those people, or maybe a visual question answering system would sufficiently answer this type of problem. Let alone generative AI being able to create new training data for old systems. And that's something that we've seen be an increasingly prominent use case for our users, as much as things that we advise our customers and the community writ large to take advantage of. So ultimately those are kind of the traditional task types. I can give you some insight, maybe, into how I think about what's possible today, or five years or ten years as you sort go back. >> Yes, definitely. Let's get into that vision. >> So I kind of think about the types of use cases in terms of what's possible. If you just imagine a very simple bell curve, your normal distribution, for the longest time, the types of things that are in the center of that bell curve are identifying objects that are very common or common objects in context. Microsoft published the COCO Dataset in 2014 of common objects and contexts, of hundreds of thousands of images of chairs, forks, food, person, these sorts of things. And you know, the challenge of the day had always been, how do you identify just those 80 objects? So if we think about the bell curve, that'd be maybe the like dead center of the curve, where there's a lot of those objects present, and it's a very common thing that needs to be identified. But it's a very, very, very small sliver of the distribution. Now if you go out to the way long tail, let's go like deep into the tail of this imagined visual normal distribution, you're going to have a problem like one of our customers, Rivian, in tandem with AWS, is tackling, to do visual quality assurance and manufacturing in production processes. Now only Rivian knows what a Rivian is supposed to look like. Only they know the imagery of what their goods that are going to be produced are. And then between those long tails of proprietary data of highly specific things that need to be understood, in the center of the curve, you have a whole kind of messy middle, type of problems I like to say. The way I think about computer vision advancing, is it's basically you have larger and larger and more capable models that eat from the center out, right? So if you have a model that, you know, understands the 80 classes in COCO, well, pretty soon you have advances like Clip, which was trained on 400 million image text pairs, and has a greater understanding of a wider array of objects than just 80 classes in context. And over time you'll get more and more of these larger models that kind of eat outwards from that center of the distribution. And so the question becomes for companies, when can you rely on maybe a model that just already exists? How do you use your data to get what may be capable off the shelf, so to speak, into something that is usable for you? Or, if you're in those long tails and you have proprietary data, how do you take advantage of the greatest asset you have, which is observed visual information that you want to put to work for your customers, and you're kind of living in the long tails, and you need to adapt state of the art for your capabilities. So my mental model for like how computer vision advances is you have that bell curve, and you have increasingly powerful models that eat outward. And multimodality has a role to play in that, larger models have a role to play in that, more compute, more data generally has a role to play in that. But it will be a messy and I think long condition. >> Well, the thing I want to get, first of all, it's great, great mental model, I appreciate that, 'cause I think that makes a lot of sense. The question is, it seems now more than ever, with the scale and compute that's available, that not only can you eat out to the middle in your example, but there's other models you can integrate with. In the past there was siloed, static, almost bespoke. Now you're looking at larger models eating into the bell curve, as you said, but also integrating in with other stuff. So this seems to be part of that interaction. How does, first of all, is that really happening? Is that true? And then two, what does that mean for companies who want to take advantage of this? Because the old model was operational, you know? I have my cameras, they're watching stuff, whatever, and like now you're in this more of a, distributed computing, computer science mindset, not, you know, put the camera on the wall kind of- I'm oversimplifying, but you know what I'm saying. What's your take on that? >> Well, to the first point of, how are these advances happening? What I was kind of describing was, you know, almost uni-dimensional in that you have like, you're only thinking about vision, but the rise of generative techniques and multi-modality, like Clip is a multi-modal model, it has 400 million image text pairs. That will advance the generalizability at a faster rate than just treating everything as only vision. And that's kind of where LLMs and vision will intersect in a really nice and powerful way. Now in terms of like companies, how should they be thinking about taking advantage of these trends? The biggest thing that, and I think it's different, obviously, on the size of business, if you're an enterprise versus a startup. The biggest thing that I think if you're an enterprise, and you have an established scaled business model that is working for your customers, the question becomes, how do you take advantage of that established data moat, potentially, resource moats, and certainly, of course, establish a way of providing value to an end user. So for example, one of our customers, Walmart, has the advantage of one of the largest inventory and stock of any company in the world. And they also of course have substantial visual data, both from like their online catalogs, or understanding what's in stock or out of stock, or understanding, you know, the quality of things that they're going from the start of their supply chain to making it inside stores, for delivery of fulfillments. All these are are visual challenges. Now they already have a substantial trove of useful imagery to understand and teach and train large models to understand each of the individual SKUs and products that are in their stores. And so if I'm a Walmart, what I'm thinking is, how do I make sure that my petabytes of visual information is utilized in a way where I capture the proprietary benefit of the models that I can train to do tasks like, what item was this? Or maybe I'm going to create AmazonGo-like technology, or maybe I'm going to build like delivery robots, or I want to automatically know what's in and out of stock from visual input fees that I have across my in-store traffic. And that becomes the question and flavor of the day for enterprises. I've got this large amount of data, I've got an established way that I can provide more value to my own customers. How do I ensure I take advantage of the data advantage I'm already sitting on? If you're a startup, I think it's a pretty different question, and I'm happy to talk about. >> Yeah, what's startup angle on this? Because you know, they're going to want to take advantage. It's like cloud startups, cloud native startups, they were born in the cloud, they never had an IT department. So if you're a startup, is there a similar role here? And if I'm a computer vision startup, what's that mean? So can you share your your take on that, because there'll be a lot of people starting up from this. >> So the startup on the opposite advantage and disadvantage, right? Like a startup doesn't have an proven way of delivering repeatable value in the same way that a scaled enterprise does. But it does have the nimbleness to identify and take advantage of techniques that you can start from a blank slate. And I think the thing that startups need to be wary of in the generative AI enlarged language model, in multimodal world, is building what I like to call, kind of like sandcastles. A sandcastle is maybe a business model or a capability that's built on top of an assumption that is going to be pretty quickly wiped away by improving underlying model technology. So almost like if you imagine like the ocean, the waves are coming in, and they're going to wipe away your progress. You don't want to be in the position of building sandcastle business where, you don't want to bet on the fact that models aren't going to get good enough to solve the task type that you might be solving. In other words, don't take a screenshot of what's capable today. Assume that what's capable today is only going to continue to become possible. And so for a startup, what you can do, that like enterprises are quite comparatively less good at, is embedding these capabilities deeply within your products and delivering maybe a vertical based experience, where AI kind of exists in the background. >> Yeah. >> And we might not think of companies as, you know, even AI companies, it's just so embedded in the experience they provide, but that's like the vertical application example of taking AI and making it be immediately usable. Or, of course there's tons of picks and shovels businesses to be built like Roboflow, where you're enabling these enterprises to take advantage of something that they have, whether that's their data sets, their computes, or their intellect. >> Okay, so if I hear that right, by the way, I love, that's horizontally scalable, that's the large language models, go up and build them the apps, hence your developer focus. I'm sure that's probably the reason that the tsunami of developer's action. So you're saying picks and shovels tools, don't try to replicate the platform of what could be the platform. Oh, go to a VC, I'm going to build a platform. No, no, no, no, those are going to get wiped away by the large language models. Is there one large language model that will rule the world, or do you see many coming? >> Yeah, so to be clear, I think there will be useful platforms. I just think a lot of people think that they're building, let's say, you know, if we put this in the cloud context, you're building a specific type of EC2 instance. Well, it turns out that Amazon can offer that type of EC2 instance, and immediately distribute it to all of their customers. So you don't want to be in the position of just providing something that actually ends up looking like a feature, which in the context of AI, might be like a small incremental improvement on the model. If that's all you're doing, you're a sandcastle business. Now there's a lot of platform businesses that need to be built that enable businesses to get to value and do things like, how do I monitor my models? How do I create better models with my given data sets? How do I ensure that my models are doing what I want them to do? How do I find the right models to use? There's all these sorts of platform wide problems that certainly exist for businesses. I just think a lot of startups that I'm seeing right now are making the mistake of assuming the advances we're seeing are not going to accelerate or even get better. >> So if I'm a customer, if I'm a company, say I'm a startup or an enterprise, either one, same question. And I want to stand up, and I have developers working on stuff, I want to start standing up an environment to start doing stuff. Is that a service provider? Is that a managed service? Is that you guys? So how do you guys fit into your customers leaning in? Is it just for developers? Are you targeting with a specific like managed service? What's the product consumption? How do you talk to customers when they come to you? >> The thing that we do is enable, we give developers superpowers to build automated inventory tracking, self-checkout systems, identify if this image is malignant cancer or benign cancer, ensure that these products that I've produced are correct. Make sure that that the defect that might exist on this electric vehicle makes its way back for review. All these sorts of problems are immediately able to be solved and tackled. In terms of the managed services element, we have solutions as integrators that will often build on top of our tools, or we'll have companies that look to us for guidance, but ultimately the company is in control of developing and building and creating these capabilities in house. I really think the distinction is maybe less around managed service and tool, and more around ownership in the era of AI. So for example, if I'm using a managed service, in that managed service, part of their benefit is that they are learning across their customer sets, then it's a very different relationship than using a managed service where I'm developing some amount of proprietary advantages for my data sets. And I think that's a really important thing that companies are becoming attuned to, just the value of the data that they have. And so that's what we do. We tell companies that you have this proprietary, immense treasure trove of data, use that to your advantage, and think about us more like a set of tools that enable you to get value from that capability. You know, the HashiCorp's and GitLab's of the world have proven like what these businesses look like at scale. >> And you're targeting developers. When you go into a company, do you target developers with freemium, is there a paid service? Talk about the business model real quick. >> Sure, yeah. The tools are free to use and get started. When someone signs up for Roboflow, they may elect to make their work open source, in which case we're able to provide even more generous usage limits to basically move the computer vision community forward. If you elect to make your data private, you can use our hosted data set managing, data set training, model deployment, annotation tooling up to some limits. And then usually when someone validates that what they're doing gets them value, they purchase a subscription license to be able to scale up those capabilities. So like most developer centric products, it's free to get started, free to prove, free to poke around, develop what you think is possible. And then once you're getting to value, then we're able to capture the commercial upside in the value that's being provided. >> Love the business model. It's right in line with where the market is. There's kind of no standards bodies these days. The developers are the ones who are deciding kind of what the standards are by their adoption. I think making that easy for developers to get value as the model open sources continuing to grow, you can see more of that. Great perspective Joseph, thanks for sharing that. Put a plug in for the company. What are you guys doing right now? Where are you in your growth? What are you looking for? How should people engage? Give the quick commercial for the company. >> So as I mentioned, Roboflow is I think one of the largest, if not the largest collections of computer vision models and data sets that are open source, available on the web today, and have a private set of tools that over half the Fortune 100 now rely on those tools. So we're at the stage now where we know people want what we're working on, and we're continuing to drive that type of adoption. So companies that are looking to make better models, improve their data sets, train and deploy, often will get a lot of value from our tools, and certainly reach out to talk. I'm sure there's a lot of talented engineers that are tuning in too, we're aggressively hiring. So if you are interested in being a part of making the world programmable, and being at the ground floor of the company that's creating these capabilities to be writ large, we'd love to hear from you. >> Amazing, Joseph, thanks so much for coming on and being part of the AWS Startup Showcase. Man, if I was in my twenties, I'd be knocking on your door, because it's the hottest trend right now, it's super exciting. Generative AI is just the beginning of massive sea change. Congratulations on all your success, and we'll be following you guys. Thanks for spending the time, really appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, this is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talking about the hottest things in tech. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (chill electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase AI Machine Learning Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS. This is season 3, episode 1 of the ongoing series covering the exciting startup from the AWS ecosystem to talk about AI and machine learning. I'm your host, John Furrier. I'm joined by two great guests here, Adam Wenchel, who's the CEO of Arthur, and Chief Scientist of Arthur, John Dickerson. Talk about how they help people build better LLM AI systems to get them into the market faster. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us, John. >> Well, I got to say I got to temper my enthusiasm because the last few months explosion of interest in LLMs with ChatGPT, has opened the eyes to everybody around the reality of that this is going next gen, this is it, this is the moment, this is the the point we're going to look back and say, this is the time where AI really hit the scene for real applications. So, a lot of Large Language Models, also known as LLMs, foundational models, and generative AI is all booming. This is where all the alpha developers are going. This is where everyone's focusing their business model transformations on. This is where developers are seeing action. So it's all happening, the wave is here. So I got to ask you guys, what are you guys seeing right now? You're in the middle of it, it's hitting you guys right on. You're in the front end of this massive wave. >> Yeah, John, I don't think you have to temper your enthusiasm at all. I mean, what we're seeing every single day is, everything from existing enterprise customers coming in with new ways that they're rethinking, like business things that they've been doing for many years that they can now do an entirely different way, as well as all manner of new companies popping up, applying LLMs to everything from generating code and SQL statements to generating health transcripts and just legal briefs. Everything you can imagine. And when you actually sit down and look at these systems and the demos we get of them, the hype is definitely justified. It's pretty amazing what they're going to do. And even just internally, we built, about a month ago in January, we built an Arthur chatbot so customers could ask questions, technical questions from our, rather than read our product documentation, they could just ask this LLM a particular question and get an answer. And at the time it was like state of the art, but then just last week we decided to rebuild it because the tooling has changed so much that we, last week, we've completely rebuilt it. It's now way better, built on an entirely different stack. And the tooling has undergone a full generation worth of change in six weeks, which is crazy. So it just tells you how much energy is going into this and how fast it's evolving right now. >> John, weigh in as a chief scientist. I mean, you must be blown away. Talk about kid in the candy store. I mean, you must be looking like this saying, I mean, she must be super busy to begin with, but the change, the acceleration, can you scope the kind of change you're seeing and be specific around the areas you're seeing movement and highly accelerated change? >> Yeah, definitely. And it is very, very exciting actually, thinking back to when ChatGPT was announced, that was a night our company was throwing an event at NeurIPS, which is maybe the biggest machine learning conference out there. And the hype when that happened was palatable and it was just shocking to see how well that performed. And then obviously over the last few months since then, as LLMs have continued to enter the market, we've seen use cases for them, like Adam mentioned all over the place. And so, some things I'm excited about in this space are the use of LLMs and more generally, foundation models to redesign traditional operations, research style problems, logistics problems, like auctions, decisioning problems. So moving beyond the already amazing news cases, like creating marketing content into more core integration and a lot of the bread and butter companies and tasks that drive the American ecosystem. And I think we're just starting to see some of that. And in the next 12 months, I think we're going to see a lot more. If I had to make other predictions, I think we're going to continue seeing a lot of work being done on managing like inference time costs via shrinking models or distillation. And I don't know how to make this prediction, but at some point we're going to be seeing lots of these very large scale models operating on the edge as well. So the time scales are extremely compressed, like Adam mentioned, 12 months from now, hard to say. >> We were talking on theCUBE prior to this session here. We had theCUBE conversation here and then the Wall Street Journal just picked up on the same theme, which is the printing press moment created the enlightenment stage of the history. Here we're in the whole nother automating intellect efficiency, doing heavy lifting, the creative class coming back, a whole nother level of reality around the corner that's being hyped up. The question is, is this justified? Is there really a breakthrough here or is this just another result of continued progress with AI? Can you guys weigh in, because there's two schools of thought. There's the, "Oh my God, we're entering a new enlightenment tech phase, of the equivalent of the printing press in all areas. Then there's, Ah, it's just AI (indistinct) inch by inch. What's your guys' opinion? >> Yeah, I think on the one hand when you're down in the weeds of building AI systems all day, every day, like we are, it's easy to look at this as an incremental progress. Like we have customers who've been building on foundation models since we started the company four years ago, particular in computer vision for classification tasks, starting with pre-trained models, things like that. So that part of it doesn't feel real new, but what does feel new is just when you apply these things to language with all the breakthroughs and computational efficiency, algorithmic improvements, things like that, when you actually sit down and interact with ChatGPT or one of the other systems that's out there that's building on top of LLMs, it really is breathtaking, like, the level of understanding that they have and how quickly you can accelerate your development efforts and get an actual working system in place that solves a really important real world problem and makes people way faster, way more efficient. So I do think there's definitely something there. It's more than just incremental improvement. This feels like a real trajectory inflection point for the adoption of AI. >> John, what's your take on this? As people come into the field, I'm seeing a lot of people move from, hey, I've been coding in Python, I've been doing some development, I've been a software engineer, I'm a computer science student. I'm coding in C++ old school, OG systems person. Where do they come in? Where's the focus, where's the action? Where are the breakthroughs? Where are people jumping in and rolling up their sleeves and getting dirty with this stuff? >> Yeah, all over the place. And it's funny you mentioned students in a different life. I wore a university professor hat and so I'm very, very familiar with the teaching aspects of this. And I will say toward Adam's point, this really is a leap forward in that techniques like in a co-pilot for example, everybody's using them right now and they really do accelerate the way that we develop. When I think about the areas where people are really, really focusing right now, tooling is certainly one of them. Like you and I were chatting about LangChain right before this interview started, two or three people can sit down and create an amazing set of pipes that connect different aspects of the LLM ecosystem. Two, I would say is in engineering. So like distributed training might be one, or just understanding better ways to even be able to train large models, understanding better ways to then distill them or run them. So like this heavy interaction now between engineering and what I might call traditional machine learning from 10 years ago where you had to know a lot of math, you had to know calculus very well, things like that. Now you also need to be, again, a very strong engineer, which is exciting. >> I interviewed Swami when he talked about the news. He's ahead of Amazon's machine learning and AI when they announced Hugging Face announcement. And I reminded him how Amazon was easy to get into if you were developing a startup back in 2007,8, and that the language models had that similar problem. It's step up a lot of content and a lot of expense to get provisioned up, now it's easy. So this is the next wave of innovation. So how do you guys see that from where we are right now? Are we at that point where it's that moment where it's that cloud-like experience for LLMs and large language models? >> Yeah, go ahead John. >> I think the answer is yes. We see a number of large companies that are training these and serving these, some of which are being co-interviewed in this episode. I think we're at that. Like, you can hit one of these with a simple, single line of Python, hitting an API, you can boot this up in seconds if you want. It's easy. >> Got it. >> So I (audio cuts out). >> Well let's take a step back and talk about the company. You guys being featured here on the Showcase. Arthur, what drove you to start the company? How'd this all come together? What's the origination story? Obviously you got a big customers, how'd get started? What are you guys doing? How do you make money? Give a quick overview. >> Yeah, I think John and I come at it from slightly different angles, but for myself, I have been a part of a number of technology companies. I joined Capital One, they acquired my last company and shortly after I joined, they asked me to start their AI team. And so even though I've been doing AI for a long time, I started my career back in DARPA. It was the first time I was really working at scale in AI at an organization where there were hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue at stake with the operation of these models and that they were impacting millions of people's financial livelihoods. And so it just got me hyper-focused on these issues around making sure that your AI worked well and it worked well for your company and it worked well for the people who were being affected by it. At the time when I was doing this 2016, 2017, 2018, there just wasn't any tooling out there to support this production management model monitoring life phase of the life cycle. And so we basically left to start the company that I wanted. And John has a his own story. I'll let let you share that one, John. >> Go ahead John, you're up. >> Yeah, so I'm coming at this from a different world. So I'm on leave now from a tenured role in academia where I was leading a large lab focusing on the intersection of machine learning and economics. And so questions like fairness or the response to the dynamism on the underlying environment have been around for quite a long time in that space. And so I've been thinking very deeply about some of those more like R and D style questions as well as having deployed some automation code across a couple of different industries, some in online advertising, some in the healthcare space and so on, where concerns of, again, fairness come to bear. And so Adam and I connected to understand the space of what that might look like in the 2018 20 19 realm from a quantitative and from a human-centered point of view. And so booted things up from there. >> Yeah, bring that applied engineering R and D into the Capital One, DNA that he had at scale. I could see that fit. I got to ask you now, next step, as you guys move out and think about LLMs and the recent AI news around the generative models and the foundational models like ChatGPT, how should we be looking at that news and everyone watching might be thinking the same thing. I know at the board level companies like, we should refactor our business, this is the future. It's that kind of moment, and the tech team's like, okay, boss, how do we do this again? Or are they prepared? How should we be thinking? How should people watching be thinking about LLMs? >> Yeah, I think they really are transformative. And so, I mean, we're seeing companies all over the place. Everything from large tech companies to a lot of our large enterprise customers are launching significant projects at core parts of their business. And so, yeah, I would be surprised, if you're serious about becoming an AI native company, which most leading companies are, then this is a trend that you need to be taking seriously. And we're seeing the adoption rate. It's funny, I would say the AI adoption in the broader business world really started, let's call it four or five years ago, and it was a relatively slow adoption rate, but I think all that kind of investment in and scaling the maturity curve has paid off because the rate at which people are adopting and deploying systems based on this is tremendous. I mean, this has all just happened in the few months and we're already seeing people get systems into production. So, now there's a lot of things you have to guarantee in order to put these in production in a way that basically is added into your business and doesn't cause more headaches than it solves. And so that's where we help customers is where how do you put these out there in a way that they're going to represent your company well, they're going to perform well, they're going to do their job and do it properly. >> So in the use case, as a customer, as I think about this, there's workflows. They might have had an ML AI ops team that's around IT. Their inference engines are out there. They probably don't have a visibility on say how much it costs, they're kicking the tires. When you look at the deployment, there's a cost piece, there's a workflow piece, there's fairness you mentioned John, what should be, I should be thinking about if I'm going to be deploying stuff into production, I got to think about those things. What's your opinion? >> Yeah, I'm happy to dive in on that one. So monitoring in general is extremely important once you have one of these LLMs in production, and there have been some changes versus traditional monitoring that we can dive deeper into that LLMs are really accelerated. But a lot of that bread and butter style of things you should be looking out for remain just as important as they are for what you might call traditional machine learning models. So the underlying environment of data streams, the way users interact with these models, these are all changing over time. And so any performance metrics that you care about, traditional ones like an accuracy, if you can define that for an LLM, ones around, for example, fairness or bias. If that is a concern for your particular use case and so on. Those need to be tracked. Now there are some interesting changes that LLMs are bringing along as well. So most ML models in production that we see are relatively static in the sense that they're not getting flipped in more than maybe once a day or once a week or they're just set once and then not changed ever again. With LLMs, there's this ongoing value alignment or collection of preferences from users that is often constantly updating the model. And so that opens up all sorts of vectors for, I won't say attack, but for problems to arise in production. Like users might learn to use your system in a different way and thus change the way those preferences are getting collected and thus change your system in ways that you never intended. So maybe that went through governance already internally at the company and now it's totally, totally changed and it's through no fault of your own, but you need to be watching over that for sure. >> Talk about the reinforced learnings from human feedback. How's that factoring in to the LLMs? Is that part of it? Should people be thinking about that? Is that a component that's important? >> It certainly is, yeah. So this is one of the big tweaks that happened with InstructGPT, which is the basis model behind ChatGPT and has since gone on to be used all over the place. So value alignment I think is through RLHF like you mentioned is a very interesting space to get into and it's one that you need to watch over. Like, you're asking humans for feedback over outputs from a model and then you're updating the model with respect to that human feedback. And now you've thrown humans into the loop here in a way that is just going to complicate things. And it certainly helps in many ways. You can ask humans to, let's say that you're deploying an internal chat bot at an enterprise, you could ask humans to align that LLM behind the chatbot to, say company values. And so you're listening feedback about these company values and that's going to scoot that chatbot that you're running internally more toward the kind of language that you'd like to use internally on like a Slack channel or something like that. Watching over that model I think in that specific case, that's a compliance and HR issue as well. So while it is part of the greater LLM stack, you can also view that as an independent bit to watch over. >> Got it, and these are important factors. When people see the Bing news, they freak out how it's doing great. Then it goes off the rails, it goes big, fails big. (laughing) So these models people see that, is that human interaction or is that feedback, is that not accepting it or how do people understand how to take that input in and how to build the right apps around LLMs? This is a tough question. >> Yeah, for sure. So some of the examples that you'll see online where these chatbots go off the rails are obviously humans trying to break the system, but some of them clearly aren't. And that's because these are large statistical models and we don't know what's going to pop out of them all the time. And even if you're doing as much in-house testing at the big companies like the Go-HERE's and the OpenAI's of the world, to try to prevent things like toxicity or racism or other sorts of bad content that might lead to bad pr, you're never going to catch all of these possible holes in the model itself. And so, again, it's very, very important to keep watching over that while it's in production. >> On the business model side, how are you guys doing? What's the approach? How do you guys engage with customers? Take a minute to explain the customer engagement. What do they need? What do you need? How's that work? >> Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So it's really easy to get started. It's literally a matter of like just handing out an API key and people can get started. And so we also offer alternative, we also offer versions that can be installed on-prem for models that, we find a lot of our customers have models that deal with very sensitive data. So you can run it in your cloud account or use our cloud version. And so yeah, it's pretty easy to get started with this stuff. We find people start using it a lot of times during the validation phase 'cause that way they can start baselining performance models, they can do champion challenger, they can really kind of baseline the performance of, maybe they're considering different foundation models. And so it's a really helpful tool for understanding differences in the way these models perform. And then from there they can just flow that into their production inferencing, so that as these systems are out there, you have really kind of real time monitoring for anomalies and for all sorts of weird behaviors as well as that continuous feedback loop that helps you make make your product get better and observability and you can run all sorts of aggregated reports to really understand what's going on with these models when they're out there deciding. I should also add that we just today have another way to adopt Arthur and that is we are in the AWS marketplace, and so we are available there just to make it that much easier to use your cloud credits, skip the procurement process, and get up and running really quickly. >> And that's great 'cause Amazon's got SageMaker, which handles a lot of privacy stuff, all kinds of cool things, or you can get down and dirty. So I got to ask on the next one, production is a big deal, getting stuff into production. What have you guys learned that you could share to folks watching? Is there a cost issue? I got to monitor, obviously you brought that up, we talked about the even reinforcement issues, all these things are happening. What is the big learnings that you could share for people that are going to put these into production to watch out for, to plan for, or be prepared for, hope for the best plan for the worst? What's your advice? >> I can give a couple opinions there and I'm sure Adam has. Well, yeah, the big one from my side is, again, I had mentioned this earlier, it's just the input data streams because humans are also exploring how they can use these systems to begin with. It's really, really hard to predict the type of inputs you're going to be seeing in production. Especially, we always talk about chatbots, but then any generative text tasks like this, let's say you're taking in news articles and summarizing them or something like that, it's very hard to get a good sampling even of the set of news articles in such a way that you can really predict what's going to pop out of that model. So to me, it's, adversarial maybe isn't the word that I would use, but it's an unnatural shifting input distribution of like prompts that you might see for these models. That's certainly one. And then the second one that I would talk about is, it can be hard to understand the costs, the inference time costs behind these LLMs. So the pricing on these is always changing as the models change size, it might go up, it might go down based on model size, based on energy cost and so on, but your pricing per token or per a thousand tokens and that I think can be difficult for some clients to wrap their head around. Again, you don't know how these systems are going to be used after all so it can be tough. And so again that's another metric that really should be tracked. >> Yeah, and there's a lot of trade off choices in there with like, how many tokens do you want at each step and in the sequence and based on, you have (indistinct) and you reject these tokens and so based on how your system's operating, that can make the cost highly variable. And that's if you're using like an API version that you're paying per token. A lot of people also choose to run these internally and as John mentioned, the inference time on these is significantly higher than a traditional classifi, even NLP classification model or tabular data model, like orders of magnitude higher. And so you really need to understand how that, as you're constantly iterating on these models and putting out new versions and new features in these models, how that's affecting the overall scale of that inference cost because you can use a lot of computing power very quickly with these profits. >> Yeah, scale, performance, price all come together. I got to ask while we're here on the secret sauce of the company, if you had to describe to people out there watching, what's the secret sauce of the company? What's the key to your success? >> Yeah, so John leads our research team and they've had a number of really cool, I think AI as much as it's been hyped for a while, it's still commercial AI at least is really in its infancy. And so the way we're able to pioneer new ways to think about performance for computer vision NLP LLMs is probably the thing that I'm proudest about. John and his team publish papers all the time at Navs and other places. But I think it's really being able to define what performance means for basically any kind of model type and give people really powerful tools to understand that on an ongoing basis. >> John, secret sauce, how would you describe it? You got all the action happening all around you. >> Yeah, well I going to appreciate Adam talking me up like that. No, I. (all laughing) >> Furrier: Robs to you. >> I would also say a couple of other things here. So we have a very strong engineering team and so I think some early hires there really set the standard at a very high bar that we've maintained as we've grown. And I think that's really paid dividends as scalabilities become even more of a challenge in these spaces, right? And so that's not just scalability when it comes to LLMs, that's scalability when it comes to millions of inferences per day, that kind of thing as well in traditional ML models. And I think that's compared to potential competitors, that's really... Well, it's made us able to just operate more efficiently and pass that along to the client. >> Yeah, and I think the infancy comment is really important because it's the beginning. You really is a long journey ahead. A lot of change coming, like I said, it's a huge wave. So I'm sure you guys got a lot of plannings at the foundation even for your own company, so I appreciate the candid response there. Final question for you guys is, what should the top things be for a company in 2023? If I'm going to set the agenda and I'm a customer moving forward, putting the pedal to the metal, so to speak, what are the top things I should be prioritizing or I need to do to be successful with AI in 2023? >> Yeah, I think, so number one, as we talked about, we've been talking about this entire episode, the things are changing so quickly and the opportunities for business transformation and really disrupting different applications, different use cases, is almost, I don't think we've even fully comprehended how big it is. And so really digging in to your business and understanding where I can apply these new sets of foundation models is, that's a top priority. The interesting thing is I think there's another force at play, which is the macroeconomic conditions and a lot of places are, they're having to work harder to justify budgets. So in the past, couple years ago maybe, they had a blank check to spend on AI and AI development at a lot of large enterprises that was limited primarily by the amount of talent they could scoop up. Nowadays these expenditures are getting scrutinized more. And so one of the things that we really help our customers with is like really calculating the ROI on these things. And so if you have models out there performing and you have a new version that you can put out that lifts the performance by 3%, how many tens of millions of dollars does that mean in business benefit? Or if I want to go to get approval from the CFO to spend a few million dollars on this new project, how can I bake in from the beginning the tools to really show the ROI along the way? Because I think in these systems when done well for a software project, the ROI can be like pretty spectacular. Like we see over a hundred percent ROI in the first year on some of these projects. And so, I think in 2023, you just need to be able to show what you're getting for that spend. >> It's a needle moving moment. You see it all the time with some of these aha moments or like, whoa, blown away. John, I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that comes up a lot for companies that I talked to, that are on my second wave, I would say coming in, maybe not, maybe the front wave of adopters is talent and team building. You mentioned some of the hires you got were game changing for you guys and set the bar high. As you move the needle, new developers going to need to come in. What's your advice given that you've been a professor, you've seen students, I know a lot of computer science people want to shift, they might not be yet skilled in AI, but they're proficient in programming, is that's going to be another opportunity with open source when things are happening. How do you talk to that next level of talent that wants to come in to this market to supplement teams and be on teams, lead teams? Any advice you have for people who want to build their teams and people who are out there and want to be a coder in AI? >> Yeah, I've advice, and this actually works for what it would take to be a successful AI company in 2023 as well, which is, just don't be afraid to iterate really quickly with these tools. The space is still being explored on what they can be used for. A lot of the tasks that they're used for now right? like creating marketing content using a machine learning is not a new thing to do. It just works really well now. And so I'm excited to see what the next year brings in terms of folks from outside of core computer science who are, other engineers or physicists or chemists or whatever who are learning how to use these increasingly easy to use tools to leverage LLMs for tasks that I think none of us have really thought about before. So that's really, really exciting. And so toward that I would say iterate quickly. Build things on your own, build demos, show them the friends, host them online and you'll learn along the way and you'll have somebody to show for it. And also you'll help us explore that space. >> Guys, congratulations with Arthur. Great company, great picks and shovels opportunities out there for everybody. Iterate fast, get in quickly and don't be afraid to iterate. Great advice and thank you for coming on and being part of the AWS showcase, thanks. >> Yeah, thanks for having us on John. Always a pleasure. >> Yeah, great stuff. Adam Wenchel, John Dickerson with Arthur. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Generative AI and AWS. Keep it right there for more action with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the "AWS Startup Showcase." This is season three, episode one. The focus of this episode is AI/ML: Top Startups Building Foundational Models, Infrastructure, and AI. It's great topics, super-relevant, and it's part of our ongoing coverage of startups in the AWS ecosystem. I'm your host, John Furrier, with theCUBE. Today, we're excited to be joined by Jay Marshall, VP of Business Development at Neural Magic. Jay, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Hey, John, thanks so much. Thanks for having us. >> We had a great CUBE conversation with you guys. This is very much about the company focuses. It's a feature presentation for the "Startup Showcase," and the machine learning at scale is the topic, but in general, it's more, (laughs) and we should call it "Machine Learning and AI: How to Get Started," because everybody is retooling their business. Companies that aren't retooling their business right now with AI first will be out of business, in my opinion. You're seeing massive shift. This is really truly the beginning of the next-gen machine learning AI trend. It's really seeing ChatGPT. Everyone sees that. That went mainstream. But this is just the beginning. This is scratching the surface of this next-generation AI with machine learning powering it, and with all the goodness of cloud, cloud scale, and how horizontally scalable it is. The resources are there. You got the Edge. Everything's perfect for AI 'cause data infrastructure's exploding in value. AI is just the applications. This is a super topic, so what do you guys see in this general area of opportunities right now in the headlines? And I'm sure you guys' phone must be ringing off the hook, metaphorically speaking, or emails and meetings and Zooms. What's going on over there at Neural Magic? >> No, absolutely, and you pretty much nailed most of it. I think that, you know, my background, we've seen for the last 20-plus years. Even just getting enterprise applications kind of built and delivered at scale, obviously, amazing things with AWS and the cloud to help accelerate that. And we just kind of figured out in the last five or so years how to do that productively and efficiently, kind of from an operations perspective. Got development and operations teams. We even came up with DevOps, right? But now, we kind of have this new kind of persona and new workload that developers have to talk to, and then it has to be deployed on those ITOps solutions. And so you pretty much nailed it. Folks are saying, "Well, how do I do this?" These big, generational models or foundational models, as we're calling them, they're great, but enterprises want to do that with their data, on their infrastructure, at scale, at the edge. So for us, yeah, we're helping enterprises accelerate that through optimizing models and then delivering them at scale in a more cost-effective fashion. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things, the benefits of OpenAI we saw, was not only is it open source, then you got also other models that are more proprietary, is that it shows the world that this is really happening, right? It's a whole nother level, and there's also new landscape kind of maps coming out. You got the generative AI, and you got the foundational models, large LLMs. Where do you guys fit into the landscape? Because you guys are in the middle of this. How do you talk to customers when they say, "I'm going down this road. I need help. I'm going to stand this up." This new AI infrastructure and applications, where do you guys fit in the landscape? >> Right, and really, the answer is both. I think today, when it comes to a lot of what for some folks would still be considered kind of cutting edge around computer vision and natural language processing, a lot of our optimization tools and our runtime are based around most of the common computer vision and natural language processing models. So your YOLOs, your BERTs, you know, your DistilBERTs and what have you, so we work to help optimize those, again, who've gotten great performance and great value for customers trying to get those into production. But when you get into the LLMs, and you mentioned some of the open source components there, our research teams have kind of been right in the trenches with those. So kind of the GPT open source equivalent being OPT, being able to actually take, you know, a multi-$100 billion parameter model and sparsify that or optimize that down, shaving away a ton of parameters, and being able to run it on smaller infrastructure. So I think the evolution here, you know, all this stuff came out in the last six months in terms of being turned loose into the wild, but we're staying in the trenches with folks so that we can help optimize those as well and not require, again, the heavy compute, the heavy cost, the heavy power consumption as those models evolve as well. So we're staying right in with everybody while they're being built, but trying to get folks into production today with things that help with business value today. >> Jay, I really appreciate you coming on theCUBE, and before we came on camera, you said you just were on a customer call. I know you got a lot of activity. What specific things are you helping enterprises solve? What kind of problems? Take us through the spectrum from the beginning, people jumping in the deep end of the pool, some people kind of coming in, starting out slow. What are the scale? Can you scope the kind of use cases and problems that are emerging that people are calling you for? >> Absolutely, so I think if I break it down to kind of, like, your startup, or I maybe call 'em AI native to kind of steal from cloud native years ago, that group, it's pretty much, you know, part and parcel for how that group already runs. So if you have a data science team and an ML engineering team, you're building models, you're training models, you're deploying models. You're seeing firsthand the expense of starting to try to do that at scale. So it's really just a pure operational efficiency play. They kind of speak natively to our tools, which we're doing in the open source. So it's really helping, again, with the optimization of the models they've built, and then, again, giving them an alternative to expensive proprietary hardware accelerators to have to run them. Now, on the enterprise side, it varies, right? You have some kind of AI native folks there that already have these teams, but you also have kind of, like, AI curious, right? Like, they want to do it, but they don't really know where to start, and so for there, we actually have an open source toolkit that can help you get into this optimization, and then again, that runtime, that inferencing runtime, purpose-built for CPUs. It allows you to not have to worry, again, about do I have a hardware accelerator available? How do I integrate that into my application stack? If I don't already know how to build this into my infrastructure, does my ITOps teams, do they know how to do this, and what does that runway look like? How do I cost for this? How do I plan for this? When it's just x86 compute, we've been doing that for a while, right? So it obviously still requires more, but at least it's a little bit more predictable. >> It's funny you mentioned AI native. You know, born in the cloud was a phrase that was out there. Now, you have startups that are born in AI companies. So I think you have this kind of cloud kind of vibe going on. You have lift and shift was a big discussion. Then you had cloud native, kind of in the cloud, kind of making it all work. Is there a existing set of things? People will throw on this hat, and then what's the difference between AI native and kind of providing it to existing stuff? 'Cause we're a lot of people take some of these tools and apply it to either existing stuff almost, and it's not really a lift and shift, but it's kind of like bolting on AI to something else, and then starting with AI first or native AI. >> Absolutely. It's a- >> How would you- >> It's a great question. I think that probably, where I'd probably pull back to kind of allow kind of retail-type scenarios where, you know, for five, seven, nine years or more even, a lot of these folks already have data science teams, you know? I mean, they've been doing this for quite some time. The difference is the introduction of these neural networks and deep learning, right? Those kinds of models are just a little bit of a paradigm shift. So, you know, I obviously was trying to be fun with the term AI native, but I think it's more folks that kind of came up in that neural network world, so it's a little bit more second nature, whereas I think for maybe some traditional data scientists starting to get into neural networks, you have the complexity there and the training overhead, and a lot of the aspects of getting a model finely tuned and hyperparameterization and all of these aspects of it. It just adds a layer of complexity that they're just not as used to dealing with. And so our goal is to help make that easy, and then of course, make it easier to run anywhere that you have just kind of standard infrastructure. >> Well, the other point I'd bring out, and I'd love to get your reaction to, is not only is that a neural network team, people who have been focused on that, but also, if you look at some of the DataOps lately, AIOps markets, a lot of data engineering, a lot of scale, folks who have been kind of, like, in that data tsunami cloud world are seeing, they kind of been in this, right? They're, like, been experiencing that. >> No doubt. I think it's funny the data lake concept, right? And you got data oceans now. Like, the metaphors just keep growing on us, but where it is valuable in terms of trying to shift the mindset, I've always kind of been a fan of some of the naming shift. I know with AWS, they always talk about purpose-built databases. And I always liked that because, you know, you don't have one database that can do everything. Even ones that say they can, like, you still have to do implementation detail differences. So sitting back and saying, "What is my use case, and then which database will I use it for?" I think it's kind of similar here. And when you're building those data teams, if you don't have folks that are doing data engineering, kind of that data harvesting, free processing, you got to do all that before a model's even going to care about it. So yeah, it's definitely a central piece of this as well, and again, whether or not you're going to be AI negative as you're making your way to kind of, you know, on that journey, you know, data's definitely a huge component of it. >> Yeah, you would have loved our Supercloud event we had. Talk about naming and, you know, around data meshes was talked about a lot. You're starting to see the control plane layers of data. I think that was the beginning of what I saw as that data infrastructure shift, to be horizontally scalable. So I have to ask you, with Neural Magic, when your customers and the people that are prospects for you guys, they're probably asking a lot of questions because I think the general thing that we see is, "How do I get started? Which GPU do I use?" I mean, there's a lot of things that are kind of, I won't say technical or targeted towards people who are living in that world, but, like, as the mainstream enterprises come in, they're going to need a playbook. What do you guys see, what do you guys offer your clients when they come in, and what do you recommend? >> Absolutely, and I think where we hook in specifically tends to be on the training side. So again, I've built a model. Now, I want to really optimize that model. And then on the runtime side when you want to deploy it, you know, we run that optimized model. And so that's where we're able to provide. We even have a labs offering in terms of being able to pair up our engineering teams with a customer's engineering teams, and we can actually help with most of that pipeline. So even if it is something where you have a dataset and you want some help in picking a model, you want some help training it, you want some help deploying that, we can actually help there as well. You know, there's also a great partner ecosystem out there, like a lot of folks even in the "Startup Showcase" here, that extend beyond into kind of your earlier comment around data engineering or downstream ITOps or the all-up MLOps umbrella. So we can absolutely engage with our labs, and then, of course, you know, again, partners, which are always kind of key to this. So you are spot on. I think what's happened with the kind of this, they talk about a hockey stick. This is almost like a flat wall now with the rate of innovation right now in this space. And so we do have a lot of folks wanting to go straight from curious to native. And so that's definitely where the partner ecosystem comes in so hard 'cause there just isn't anybody or any teams out there that, I literally do from, "Here's my blank database, and I want an API that does all the stuff," right? Like, that's a big chunk, but we can definitely help with the model to delivery piece. >> Well, you guys are obviously a featured company in this space. Talk about the expertise. A lot of companies are like, I won't say faking it till they make it. You can't really fake security. You can't really fake AI, right? So there's going to be a learning curve. They'll be a few startups who'll come out of the gate early. You guys are one of 'em. Talk about what you guys have as expertise as a company, why you're successful, and what problems do you solve for customers? >> No, appreciate that. Yeah, we actually, we love to tell the story of our founder, Nir Shavit. So he's a 20-year professor at MIT. Actually, he was doing a lot of work on kind of multicore processing before there were even physical multicores, and actually even did a stint in computational neurobiology in the 2010s, and the impetus for this whole technology, has a great talk on YouTube about it, where he talks about the fact that his work there, he kind of realized that the way neural networks encode and how they're executed by kind of ramming data layer by layer through these kind of HPC-style platforms, actually was not analogous to how the human brain actually works. So we're on one side, we're building neural networks, and we're trying to emulate neurons. We're not really executing them that way. So our team, which one of the co-founders, also an ex-MIT, that was kind of the birth of why can't we leverage this super-performance CPU platform, which has those really fat, fast caches attached to each core, and actually start to find a way to break that model down in a way that I can execute things in parallel, not having to do them sequentially? So it is a lot of amazing, like, talks and stuff that show kind of the magic, if you will, a part of the pun of Neural Magic, but that's kind of the foundational layer of all the engineering that we do here. And in terms of how we're able to bring it to reality for customers, I'll give one customer quote where it's a large retailer, and it's a people-counting application. So a very common application. And that customer's actually been able to show literally double the amount of cameras being run with the same amount of compute. So for a one-to-one perspective, two-to-one, business leaders usually like that math, right? So we're able to show pure cost savings, but even performance-wise, you know, we have some of the common models like your ResNets and your YOLOs, where we can actually even perform better than hardware-accelerated solutions. So we're trying to do, I need to just dumb it down to better, faster, cheaper, but from a commodity perspective, that's where we're accelerating. >> That's not a bad business model. Make things easier to use, faster, and reduce the steps it takes to do stuff. So, you know, that's always going to be a good market. Now, you guys have DeepSparse, which we've talked about on our CUBE conversation prior to this interview, delivers ML models through the software so the hardware allows for a decoupling, right? >> Yep. >> Which is going to drive probably a cost advantage. Also, it's also probably from a deployment standpoint it must be easier. Can you share the benefits? Is it a cost side? Is it more of a deployment? What are the benefits of the DeepSparse when you guys decouple the software from the hardware on the ML models? >> No you actually, you hit 'em both 'cause that really is primarily the value. Because ultimately, again, we're so early. And I came from this world in a prior life where I'm doing Java development, WebSphere, WebLogic, Tomcat open source, right? When we were trying to do innovation, we had innovation buckets, 'cause everybody wanted to be on the web and have their app and a browser, right? We got all the money we needed to build something and show, hey, look at the thing on the web, right? But when you had to get in production, that was the challenge. So to what you're speaking to here, in this situation, we're able to show we're just a Python package. So whether you just install it on the operating system itself, or we also have a containerized version you can drop on any container orchestration platform, so ECS or EKS on AWS. And so you get all the auto-scaling features. So when you think about that kind of a world where you have everything from real-time inferencing to kind of after hours batch processing inferencing, the fact that you can auto scale that hardware up and down and it's CPU based, so you're paying by the minute instead of maybe paying by the hour at a lower cost shelf, it does everything from pure cost to, again, I can have my standard IT team say, "Hey, here's the Kubernetes in the container," and it just runs on the infrastructure we're already managing. So yeah, operational, cost and again, and many times even performance. (audio warbles) CPUs if I want to. >> Yeah, so that's easier on the deployment too. And you don't have this kind of, you know, blank check kind of situation where you don't know what's on the backend on the cost side. >> Exactly. >> And you control the actual hardware and you can manage that supply chain. >> And keep in mind, exactly. Because the other thing that sometimes gets lost in the conversation, depending on where a customer is, some of these workloads, like, you know, you and I remember a world where even like the roundtrip to the cloud and back was a problem for folks, right? We're used to extremely low latency. And some of these workloads absolutely also adhere to that. But there's some workloads where the latency isn't as important. And we actually even provide the tuning. Now, if we're giving you five milliseconds of latency and you don't need that, you can tune that back. So less CPU, lower cost. Now, throughput and other things come into play. But that's the kind of configurability and flexibility we give for operations. >> All right, so why should I call you if I'm a customer or prospect Neural Magic, what problem do I have or when do I know I need you guys? When do I call you in and what does my environment look like? When do I know? What are some of the signals that would tell me that I need Neural Magic? >> No, absolutely. So I think in general, any neural network, you know, the process I mentioned before called sparcification, it's, you know, an optimization process that we specialize in. Any neural network, you know, can be sparcified. So I think if it's a deep-learning neural network type model. If you're trying to get AI into production, you have cost concerns even performance-wise. I certainly hate to be too generic and say, "Hey, we'll talk to everybody." But really in this world right now, if it's a neural network, it's something where you're trying to get into production, you know, we are definitely offering, you know, kind of an at-scale performant deployable solution for deep learning models. >> So neural network you would define as what? Just devices that are connected that need to know about each other? What's the state-of-the-art current definition of neural network for customers that may think they have a neural network or might not know they have a neural network architecture? What is that definition for neural network? >> That's a great question. So basically, machine learning models that fall under this kind of category, you hear about transformers a lot, or I mentioned about YOLO, the YOLO family of computer vision models, or natural language processing models like BERT. If you have a data science team or even developers, some even regular, I used to call myself a nine to five developer 'cause I worked in the enterprise, right? So like, hey, we found a new open source framework, you know, I used to use Spring back in the day and I had to go figure it out. There's developers that are pulling these models down and they're figuring out how to get 'em into production, okay? So I think all of those kinds of situations, you know, if it's a machine learning model of the deep learning variety that's, you know, really specifically where we shine. >> Okay, so let me pretend I'm a customer for a minute. I have all these videos, like all these transcripts, I have all these people that we've interviewed, CUBE alumnis, and I say to my team, "Let's AI-ify, sparcify theCUBE." >> Yep. >> What do I do? I mean, do I just like, my developers got to get involved and they're going to be like, "Well, how do I upload it to the cloud? Do I use a GPU?" So there's a thought process. And I think a lot of companies are going through that example of let's get on this AI, how can it help our business? >> Absolutely. >> What does that progression look like? Take me through that example. I mean, I made up theCUBE example up, but we do have a lot of data. We have large data models and we have people and connect to the internet and so we kind of seem like there's a neural network. I think every company might have a neural network in place. >> Well, and I was going to say, I think in general, you all probably do represent even the standard enterprise more than most. 'Cause even the enterprise is going to have a ton of video content, a ton of text content. So I think it's a great example. So I think that that kind of sea or I'll even go ahead and use that term data lake again, of data that you have, you're probably going to want to be setting up kind of machine learning pipelines that are going to be doing all of the pre-processing from kind of the raw data to kind of prepare it into the format that say a YOLO would actually use or let's say BERT for natural language processing. So you have all these transcripts, right? So we would do a pre-processing path where we would create that into the file format that BERT, the machine learning model would know how to train off of. So that's kind of all the pre-processing steps. And then for training itself, we actually enable what's called sparse transfer learning. So that's transfer learning is a very popular method of doing training with existing models. So we would be able to retrain that BERT model with your transcript data that we have now done the pre-processing with to get it into the proper format. And now we have a BERT natural language processing model that's been trained on your data. And now we can deploy that onto DeepSparse runtime so that now you can ask that model whatever questions, or I should say pass, you're not going to ask it those kinds of questions ChatGPT, although we can do that too. But you're going to pass text through the BERT model and it's going to give you answers back. It could be things like sentiment analysis or text classification. You just call the model, and now when you pass text through it, you get the answers better, faster or cheaper. I'll use that reference again. >> Okay, we can create a CUBE bot to give us questions on the fly from the the AI bot, you know, from our previous guests. >> Well, and I will tell you using that as an example. So I had mentioned OPT before, kind of the open source version of ChatGPT. So, you know, typically that requires multiple GPUs to run. So our research team, I may have mentioned earlier, we've been able to sparcify that over 50% already and run it on only a single GPU. And so in that situation, you could train OPT with that corpus of data and do exactly what you say. Actually we could use Alexa, we could use Alexa to actually respond back with voice. How about that? We'll do an API call and we'll actually have an interactive Alexa-enabled bot. >> Okay, we're going to be a customer, let's put it on the list. But this is a great example of what you guys call software delivered AI, a topic we chatted about on theCUBE conversation. This really means this is a developer opportunity. This really is the convergence of the data growth, the restructuring, how data is going to be horizontally scalable, meets developers. So this is an AI developer model going on right now, which is kind of unique. >> It is, John, I will tell you what's interesting. And again, folks don't always think of it this way, you know, the AI magical goodness is now getting pushed in the middle where the developers and IT are operating. And so it again, that paradigm, although for some folks seem obvious, again, if you've been around for 20 years, that whole all that plumbing is a thing, right? And so what we basically help with is when you deploy the DeepSparse runtime, we have a very rich API footprint. And so the developers can call the API, ITOps can run it, or to your point, it's developer friendly enough that you could actually deploy our off-the-shelf models. We have something called the SparseZoo where we actually publish pre-optimized or pre-sparcified models. And so developers could literally grab those right off the shelf with the training they've already had and just put 'em right into their applications and deploy them as containers. So yeah, we enable that for sure as well. >> It's interesting, DevOps was infrastructure as code and we had a last season, a series on data as code, which we kind of coined. This is data as code. This is a whole nother level of opportunity where developers just want to have programmable data and apps with AI. This is a whole new- >> Absolutely. >> Well, absolutely great, great stuff. Our news team at SiliconANGLE and theCUBE said you guys had a little bit of a launch announcement you wanted to make here on the "AWS Startup Showcase." So Jay, you have something that you want to launch here? >> Yes, and thank you John for teeing me up. So I'm going to try to put this in like, you know, the vein of like an AWS, like main stage keynote launch, okay? So we're going to try this out. So, you know, a lot of our product has obviously been built on top of x86. I've been sharing that the past 15 minutes or so. And with that, you know, we're seeing a lot of acceleration for folks wanting to run on commodity infrastructure. But we've had customers and prospects and partners tell us that, you know, ARM and all of its kind of variance are very compelling, both cost performance-wise and also obviously with Edge. And wanted to know if there was anything we could do from a runtime perspective with ARM. And so we got the work and, you know, it's a hard problem to solve 'cause the instructions set for ARM is very different than the instruction set for x86, and our deep tensor column technology has to be able to work with that lower level instruction spec. But working really hard, the engineering team's been at it and we are happy to announce here at the "AWS Startup Showcase," that DeepSparse inference now has, or inference runtime now has support for AWS Graviton instances. So it's no longer just x86, it is also ARM and that obviously also opens up the door to Edge and further out the stack so that optimize once run anywhere, we're not going to open up. So it is an early access. So if you go to neuralmagic.com/graviton, you can sign up for early access, but we're excited to now get into the ARM side of the fence as well on top of Graviton. >> That's awesome. Our news team is going to jump on that news. We'll get it right up. We get a little scoop here on the "Startup Showcase." Jay Marshall, great job. That really highlights the flexibility that you guys have when you decouple the software from the hardware. And again, we're seeing open source driving a lot more in AI ops now with with machine learning and AI. So to me, that makes a lot of sense. And congratulations on that announcement. Final minute or so we have left, give a summary of what you guys are all about. Put a plug in for the company, what you guys are looking to do. I'm sure you're probably hiring like crazy. Take the last few minutes to give a plug for the company and give a summary. >> No, I appreciate that so much. So yeah, joining us out neuralmagic.com, you know, part of what we didn't spend a lot of time here, our optimization tools, we are doing all of that in the open source. It's called SparseML and I mentioned SparseZoo briefly. So we really want the data scientists community and ML engineering community to join us out there. And again, the DeepSparse runtime, it's actually free to use for trial purposes and for personal use. So you can actually run all this on your own laptop or on an AWS instance of your choice. We are now live in the AWS marketplace. So push button, deploy, come try us out and reach out to us on neuralmagic.com. And again, sign up for the Graviton early access. >> All right, Jay Marshall, Vice President of Business Development Neural Magic here, talking about performant, cost effective machine learning at scale. This is season three, episode one, focusing on foundational models as far as building data infrastructure and AI, AI native. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

(soft music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. AI and Machine Learning: Top Startups Building Foundational Model Infrastructure. This is season 3, episode 1 of the ongoing series covering the exciting stuff from the AWS ecosystem, talking about machine learning and AI. I'm your host, John Furrier and today we are excited to be joined by Luis Ceze who's the CEO of OctoML and Anna Connolly, VP of customer success and experience OctoML. Great to have you on again, Luis. Anna, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. It's great to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> I love the company. We had a CUBE conversation about this. You guys are really addressing how to run foundational models faster for less. And this is like the key theme. But before we get into it, this is a hot trend, but let's explain what you guys do. Can you set the narrative of what the company's about, why it was founded, what's your North Star and your mission? >> Yeah, so John, our mission is to make AI sustainable and accessible for everyone. And what we offer customers is, you know, a way of taking their models into production in the most efficient way possible by automating the process of getting a model and optimizing it for a variety of hardware and making cost-effective. So better, faster, cheaper model deployment. >> You know, the big trend here is AI. Everyone's seeing the ChatGPT, kind of the shot heard around the world. The BingAI and this fiasco and the ongoing experimentation. People are into it, and I think the business impact is clear. I haven't seen this in all of my career in the technology industry of this kind of inflection point. And every senior leader I talk to is rethinking about how to rebuild their business with AI because now the large language models have come in, these foundational models are here, they can see value in their data. This is a 10 year journey in the big data world. Now it's impacting that, and everyone's rebuilding their company around this idea of being AI first 'cause they see ways to eliminate things and make things more efficient. And so now they telling 'em to go do it. And they're like, what do we do? So what do you guys think? Can you explain what is this wave of AI and why is it happening, why now, and what should people pay attention to? What does it mean to them? >> Yeah, I mean, it's pretty clear by now that AI can do amazing things that captures people's imaginations. And also now can show things that are really impactful in businesses, right? So what people have the opportunity to do today is to either train their own model that adds value to their business or find open models out there that can do very valuable things to them. So the next step really is how do you take that model and put it into production in a cost-effective way so that the business can actually get value out of it, right? >> Anna, what's your take? Because customers are there, you're there to make 'em successful, you got the new secret weapon for their business. >> Yeah, I think we just see a lot of companies struggle to get from a trained model into a model that is deployed in a cost-effective way that actually makes sense for the application they're building. I think that's a huge challenge we see today, kind of across the board across all of our customers. >> Well, I see this, everyone asking the same question. I have data, I want to get value out of it. I got to get these big models, I got to train it. What's it going to cost? So I think there's a reality of, okay, I got to do it. Then no one has any visibility on what it costs. When they get into it, this is going to break the bank. So I have to ask you guys, the cost of training these models is on everyone's mind. OctoML, your company's focus on the cost side of it as well as the efficiency side of running these models in production. Why are the production costs such a concern and where specifically are people looking at it and why did it get here? >> Yeah, so training costs get a lot of attention because normally a large number, but we shouldn't forget that it's a large, typically one time upfront cost that customers pay. But, you know, when the model is put into production, the cost grows directly with model usage and you actually want your model to be used because it's adding value, right? So, you know, the question that a customer faces is, you know, they have a model, they have a trained model and now what? So how much would it cost to run in production, right? And now without the big wave in generative AI, which rightfully is getting a lot of attention because of the amazing things that it can do. It's important for us to keep in mind that generative AI models like ChatGPT are huge, expensive energy hogs. They cost a lot to run, right? And given that model usage growth directly, model cost grows directly with usage, what you want to do is make sure that once you put a model into production, you have the best cost structure possible so that you're not surprised when it's gets popular, right? So let me give you an example. So if you have a model that costs, say 1 to $2 million to train, but then it costs about one to two cents per session to use it, right? So if you have a million active users, even if they use just once a day, it's 10 to $20,000 a day to operate that model in production. And that very, very quickly, you know, get beyond what you paid to train it. >> Anna, these aren't small numbers, and it's cost to train and cost to operate, it kind of reminds me of when the cloud came around and the data center versus cloud options. Like, wait a minute, one, it costs a ton of cash to deploy, and then running it. This is kind of a similar dynamic. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think we are going to see increasingly the cost and production outpacing the costs and training by a lot. I mean, people talk about training costs now because that's what they're confronting now because people are so focused on getting models performant enough to even use in an application. And now that we have them and they're that capable, we're really going to start to see production costs go up a lot. >> Yeah, Luis, if you don't mind, I know this might be a little bit of a tangent, but, you know, training's super important. I get that. That's what people are doing now, but then there's the deployment side of production. Where do people get caught up and miss the boat or misconfigure? What's the gotcha? Where's the trip wire or so to speak? Where do people mess up on the cost side? What do they do? Is it they don't think about it, they tie it to proprietary hardware? What's the issue? >> Yeah, several things, right? So without getting really technical, which, you know, I might get into, you know, you have to understand relationship between performance, you know, both in terms of latency and throughput and cost, right? So reducing latency is important because you improve responsiveness of the model. But it's really important to keep in mind that it often leads diminishing returns. Below a certain latency, making it faster won't make a measurable difference in experience, but it's going to cost a lot more. So understanding that is important. Now, if you care more about throughputs, which is the time it takes for you to, you know, units per period of time, you care about time to solution, we should think about this throughput per dollar. And understand what you want is the highest throughput per dollar, which may come at the cost of higher latency, which you're not going to care about, right? So, and the reality here, John, is that, you know, humans and especially folks in this space want to have the latest and greatest hardware. And often they commit a lot of money to get access to them and have to commit upfront before they understand the needs that their models have, right? So common mistake here, one is not spending time to understand what you really need, and then two, over-committing and using more hardware than you actually need. And not giving yourself enough freedom to get your workload to move around to the more cost-effective choice, right? So this is just a metaphoric choice. And then another thing that's important here too is making a model run faster on the hardware directly translates to lower cost, right? So, but it takes a lot of engineers, you need to think of ways of producing very efficient versions of your model for the target hardware that you're going to use. >> Anna, what's the customer angle here? Because price performance has been around for a long time, people get that, but now latency and throughput, that's key because we're starting to see this in apps. I mean, there's an end user piece. I even seeing it on the infrastructure side where they're taking a heavy lifting away from operational costs. So you got, you know, application specific to the user and/or top of the stack, and then you got actually being used in operations where they want both. >> Yeah, absolutely. Maybe I can illustrate this with a quick story with the customer that we had recently been working with. So this customer is planning to run kind of a transformer based model for tech generation at super high scale on Nvidia T4 GPU, so kind of a commodity GPU. And the scale was so high that they would've been paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in cloud costs per year just to serve this model alone. You know, one of many models in their application stack. So we worked with this team to optimize our model and then benchmark across several possible targets. So that matching the hardware that Luis was just talking about, including the newer kind of Nvidia A10 GPUs. And what they found during this process was pretty interesting. First, the team was able to shave a quarter of their spend just by using better optimization techniques on the T4, the older hardware. But actually moving to a newer GPU would allow them to serve this model in a sub two milliseconds latency, so super fast, which was able to unlock an entirely new kind of user experience. So they were able to kind of change the value they're delivering in their application just because they were able to move to this new hardware easily. So they ultimately decided to plan their deployment on the more expensive A10 because of this, but because of the hardware specific optimizations that we helped them with, they managed to even, you know, bring costs down from what they had originally planned. And so if you extend this kind of example to everything that's happening with generative AI, I think the story we just talked about was super relevant, but the scale can be even higher, you know, it can be tenfold that. We were recently conducting kind of this internal study using GPT-J as a proxy to illustrate the experience of just a company trying to use one of these large language models with an example scenario of creating a chatbot to help job seekers prepare for interviews. So if you imagine kind of a conservative usage scenario where the model generates just 3000 words per user per day, which is, you know, pretty conservative for how people are interacting with these models. It costs 5 cents a session and if you're a company and your app goes viral, so from, you know, beginning of the year there's nobody, at the end of the year there's a million daily active active users in that year alone, going from zero to a million. You'll be spending about $6 million a year, which is pretty unmanageable. That's crazy, right? >> Yeah. >> For a company or a product that's just launching. So I think, you know, for us we see the real way to make these kind of advancements accessible and sustainable, as we said is to bring down cost to serve using these techniques. >> That's a great story and I think that illustrates this idea that deployment cost can vary from situation to situation, from model to model and that the efficiency is so strong with this new wave, it eliminates heavy lifting, creates more efficiency, automates intellect. I mean, this is the trend, this is radical, this is going to increase. So the cost could go from nominal to millions, literally, potentially. So, this is what customers are doing. Yeah, that's a great story. What makes sense on a financial, is there a cost of ownership? Is there a pattern for best practice for training? What do you guys advise cuz this is a lot of time and money involved in all potential, you know, good scenarios of upside. But you can get over your skis as they say, and be successful and be out of business if you don't manage it. I mean, that's what people are talking about, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we see kind of three main vectors to reduce cost. I think one is make your deployment process easier overall, so that your engineering effort to even get your app running goes down. Two, would be get more from the compute you're already paying for, you're already paying, you know, for your instances in the cloud, but can you do more with that? And then three would be shop around for lower cost hardware to match your use case. So on the first one, I think making the deployment easier overall, there's a lot of manual work that goes into benchmarking, optimizing and packaging models for deployment. And because the performance of machine learning models can be really hardware dependent, you have to go through this process for each target you want to consider running your model on. And this is hard, you know, we see that every day. But for teams who want to incorporate some of these large language models into their applications, it might be desirable because licensing a model from a large vendor like OpenAI can leave you, you know, over provision, kind of paying for capabilities you don't need in your application or can lock you into them and you lose flexibility. So we have a customer whose team actually prepares models for deployment in a SaaS application that many of us use every day. And they told us recently that without kind of an automated benchmarking and experimentation platform, they were spending several days each to benchmark a single model on a single hardware type. So this is really, you know, manually intensive and then getting more from the compute you're already paying for. We do see customers who leave money on the table by running models that haven't been optimized specifically for the hardware target they're using, like Luis was mentioning. And for some teams they just don't have the time to go through an optimization process and for others they might lack kind of specialized expertise and this is something we can bring. And then on shopping around for different hardware types, we really see a huge variation in model performance across hardware, not just CPU vs. GPU, which is, you know, what people normally think of. But across CPU vendors themselves, high memory instances and across cloud providers even. So the best strategy here is for teams to really be able to, we say, look before you leap by running real world benchmarking and not just simulations or predictions to find the best software, hardware combination for their workload. >> Yeah. You guys sound like you have a very impressive customer base deploying large language models. Where would you categorize your current customer base? And as you look out, as you guys are growing, you have new customers coming in, take me through the progression. Take me through the profile of some of your customers you have now, size, are they hyperscalers, are they big app folks, are they kicking the tires? And then as people are out there scratching heads, I got to get in this game, what's their psychology like? Are they coming in with specific problems or do they have specific orientation point of view about what they want to do? Can you share some data around what you're seeing? >> Yeah, I think, you know, we have customers that kind of range across the spectrum of sophistication from teams that basically don't have MLOps expertise in their company at all. And so they're really looking for us to kind of give a full service, how should I do everything from, you know, optimization, find the hardware, prepare for deployment. And then we have teams that, you know, maybe already have their serving and hosting infrastructure up and ready and they already have models in production and they're really just looking to, you know, take the extra juice out of the hardware and just do really specific on that optimization piece. I think one place where we're doing a lot more work now is kind of in the developer tooling, you know, model selection space. And that's kind of an area that we're creating more tools for, particularly within the PyTorch ecosystem to bring kind of this power earlier in the development cycle so that as people are grabbing a model off the shelf, they can, you know, see how it might perform and use that to inform their development process. >> Luis, what's the big, I like this idea of picking the models because isn't that like going to the market and picking the best model for your data? It's like, you know, it's like, isn't there a certain approaches? What's your view on this? 'Cause this is where everyone, I think it's going to be a land rush for this and I want to get your thoughts. >> For sure, yeah. So, you know, I guess I'll start with saying the one main takeaway that we got from the GPT-J study is that, you know, having a different understanding of what your model's compute and memory requirements are, very quickly, early on helps with the much smarter AI model deployments, right? So, and in fact, you know, Anna just touched on this, but I want to, you know, make sure that it's clear that OctoML is putting that power into user's hands right now. So in partnership with AWS, we are launching this new PyTorch native profiler that allows you with a single, you know, one line, you know, code decorator allows you to see how your code runs on a variety of different hardware after accelerations. So it gives you very clear, you know, data on how you should think about your model deployments. And this ties back to choices of models. So like, if you have a set of choices that are equally good of models in terms of functionality and you want to understand after acceleration how are you going to deploy, how much they're going to cost or what are the options using a automated process of making a decision is really, really useful. And in fact, so I think these events can get early access to this by signing up for the Octopods, you know, this is exclusive group for insiders here, so you can go to OctoML.ai/pods to sign up. >> So that Octopod, is that a program? What is that, is that access to code? Is that a beta, what is that? Explain, take a minute and explain Octopod. >> I think the Octopod would be a group of people who is interested in experiencing this functionality. So it is the friends and users of OctoML that would be the Octopod. And then yes, after you sign up, we would provide you essentially the tool in code form for you to try out in your own. I mean, part of the benefit of this is that it happens in your own local environment and you're in control of everything kind of within the workflow that developers are already using to create and begin putting these models into their applications. So it would all be within your control. >> Got it. I think the big question I have for you is when do you, when does that one of your customers know they need to call you? What's their environment look like? What are they struggling with? What are the conversations they might be having on their side of the fence? If anyone's watching this, they're like, "Hey, you know what, I've got my team, we have a lot of data. Do we have our own language model or do I use someone else's?" There's a lot of this, I will say discovery going on around what to do, what path to take, what does that customer look like, if someone's listening, when do they know to call you guys, OctoML? >> Well, I mean the most obvious one is that you have a significant spend on AI/ML, come and talk to us, you know, putting AIML into production. So that's the clear one. In fact, just this morning I was talking to someone who is in life sciences space and is having, you know, 15 to $20 million a year cloud related to AI/ML deployment is a clear, it's a pretty clear match right there, right? So that's on the cost side. But I also want to emphasize something that Anna said earlier that, you know, the hardware and software complexity involved in putting model into production is really high. So we've been able to abstract that away, offering a clean automation flow enables one, to experiment early on, you know, how models would run and get them to production. And then two, once they are into production, gives you an automated flow to continuously updating your model and taking advantage of all this acceleration and ability to run the model on the right hardware. So anyways, let's say one then is cost, you know, you have significant cost and then two, you have an automation needs. And Anna please compliment that. >> Yeah, Anna you can please- >> Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Maybe the other time is when you are expecting a big scale up in serving your application, right? You're launching a new feature, you expect to get a lot of usage or, and you want to kind of anticipate maybe your CTO, your CIO, whoever pays your cloud bills is going to come after you, right? And so they want to know, you know, what's the return on putting this model essentially into my application stack? Am I going to, is the usage going to match what I'm paying for it? And then you can understand that. >> So you guys have a lot of the early adopters, they got big data teams, they're pushed in the production, they want to get a little QA, test the waters, understand, use your technology to figure it out. Is there any cases where people have gone into production, they have to pull it out? It's like the old lemon laws with your car, you buy a car and oh my god, it's not the way I wanted it. I mean, I can imagine the early people through the wall, so to speak, in the wave here are going to be bloody in the sense that they've gone in and tried stuff and get stuck with huge bills. Are you seeing that? Are people pulling stuff out of production and redeploying? Or I can imagine that if I had a bad deployment, I'd want to refactor that or actually replatform that. Do you see that too? >> Definitely after a sticker shock, yes, your customers will come and make sure that, you know, the sticker shock won't happen again. >> Yeah. >> But then there's another more thorough aspect here that I think we likely touched on, be worth elaborating a bit more is just how are you going to scale in a way that's feasible depending on the allocation that you get, right? So as we mentioned several times here, you know, model deployment is so hardware dependent and so complex that you tend to get a model for a hardware choice and then you want to scale that specific type of instance. But what if, when you want to scale because suddenly luckily got popular and, you know, you want to scale it up and then you don't have that instance anymore. So how do you live with whatever you have at that moment is something that we see customers needing as well. You know, so in fact, ideally what we want is customers to not think about what kind of specific instances they want. What they want is to know what their models need. Say, they know the SLA and then find a set of hybrid targets and instances that hit the SLA whenever they're also scaling, they're going to scale with more freedom, right? Instead of having to wait for AWS to give them more specific allocation for a specific instance. What if you could live with other types of hardware and scale up in a more free way, right? So that's another thing that we see customers, you know, like they need more freedom to be able to scale with whatever is available. >> Anna, you touched on this with the business model impact to that 6 million cost, if that goes out of control, there's a business model aspect and there's a technical operation aspect to the cost side too. You want to be mindful of riding the wave in a good way, but not getting over your skis. So that brings up the point around, you know, confidence, right? And teamwork. Because if you're in production, there's probably a team behind it. Talk about the team aspect of your customers. I mean, they're dedicated, they go put stuff into production, they're developers, there're data. What's in it for them? Are they getting better, are they in the beach, you know, reading the book. Are they, you know, are there easy street for them? What's the customer benefit to the teams? >> Yeah, absolutely. With just a few clicks of a button, you're in production, right? That's the dream. So yeah, I mean I think that, you know, we illustrated it before a little bit. I think the automated kind of benchmarking and optimization process, like when you think about the effort it takes to get that data by hand, which is what people are doing today, they just don't do it. So they're making decisions without the best information because it's, you know, there just isn't the bandwidth to get the information that they need to make the best decision and then know exactly how to deploy it. So I think it's actually bringing kind of a new insight and capability to these teams that they didn't have before. And then maybe another aspect on the team side is that it's making the hand-off of the models from the data science teams to the model deployment teams more seamless. So we have, you know, we have seen in the past that this kind of transition point is the place where there are a lot of hiccups, right? The data science team will give a model to the production team and it'll be too slow for the application or it'll be too expensive to run and it has to go back and be changed and kind of this loop. And so, you know, with the PyTorch profiler that Luis was talking about, and then also, you know, the other ways we do optimization that kind of prevents that hand-off problem from happening. >> Luis and Anna, you guys have a great company. Final couple minutes left. Talk about the company, the people there, what's the culture like, you know, if Intel has Moore's law, which is, you know, doubling the performance in few years, what's the culture like there? Is it, you know, more throughput, better pricing? Explain what's going on with the company and put a plug in. Luis, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm extremely proud of the team that we built here. You know, we have a people first culture, you know, very, very collaborative and folks, we all have a shared mission here of making AI more accessible and sustainable. We have a very diverse team in terms of backgrounds and life stories, you know, to do what we do here, we need a team that has expertise in software engineering, in machine learning, in computer architecture. Even though we don't build chips, we need to understand how they work, right? So, and then, you know, the fact that we have this, this very really, really varied set of backgrounds makes the environment, you know, it's say very exciting to learn more about, you know, assistance end-to-end. But also makes it for a very interesting, you know, work environment, right? So people have different backgrounds, different stories. Some of them went to grad school, others, you know, were in intelligence agencies and now are working here, you know. So we have a really interesting set of people and, you know, life is too short not to work with interesting humans. You know, that's something that I like to think about, you know. >> I'm sure your off-site meetings are a lot of fun, people talking about computer architectures, silicon advances, the next GPU, the big data models coming in. Anna, what's your take? What's the culture like? What's the company vibe and what are you guys looking to do? What's the customer success pattern? What's up? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, second all of the great things that Luis just said about the team. I think one that I, an additional one that I'd really like to underscore is kind of this customer obsession, to use a term you all know well. And focus on the end users and really making the experiences that we're bringing to our user who are developers really, you know, useful and valuable for them. And so I think, you know, all of these tools that we're trying to put in the hands of users, the industry and the market is changing so rapidly that our products across the board, you know, all of the companies that, you know, are part of the showcase today, we're all evolving them so quickly and we can only do that kind of really hand in glove with our users. So that would be another thing I'd emphasize. >> I think the change dynamic, the power dynamics of this industry is just the beginning. I'm very bullish that this is going to be probably one of the biggest inflection points in history of the computer industry because of all the dynamics of the confluence of all the forces, which you mentioned some of them, I mean PC, you know, interoperability within internetworking and you got, you know, the web and then mobile. Now we have this, I mean, I wouldn't even put social media even in the close to this. Like, this is like, changes user experience, changes infrastructure. There's going to be massive accelerations in performance on the hardware side from AWS's of the world and cloud and you got the edge and more data. This is really what big data was going to look like. This is the beginning. Final question, what do you guys see going forward in the future? >> Well, it's undeniable that machine learning and AI models are becoming an integral part of an interesting application today, right? So, and the clear trends here are, you know, more and more competitional needs for these models because they're only getting more and more powerful. And then two, you know, seeing the complexity of the infrastructure where they run, you know, just considering the cloud, there's like a wide variety of choices there, right? So being able to live with that and making the most out of it in a way that does not require, you know, an impossible to find team is something that's pretty clear. So the need for automation, abstracting with the complexity is definitely here. And we are seeing this, you know, trends are that you also see models starting to move to the edge as well. So it's clear that we're seeing, we are going to live in a world where there's no large models living in the cloud. And then, you know, edge models that talk to these models in the cloud to form, you know, an end-to-end truly intelligent application. >> Anna? >> Yeah, I think, you know, our, Luis said it at the beginning. Our vision is to make AI sustainable and accessible. And I think as this technology just expands in every company and every team, that's going to happen kind of on its own. And we're here to help support that. And I think you can't do that without tools like those like OctoML. >> I think it's going to be an error of massive invention, creativity, a lot of the format heavy lifting is going to allow the talented people to automate their intellect. I mean, this is really kind of what we see going on. And Luis, thank you so much. Anna, thanks for coming on this segment. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and being part of the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase AI/ML Top Startups Building Foundation Model Infrastructure. This is season three, episode one of our ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem to talk about data and analytics. I'm your host, Lisa Martin and today we're excited to be joined by two guests from Astronomer. Steven Hillion joins us, it's Chief Data Officer and Jeff Fletcher, it's director of ML. They're here to talk about machine learning and data orchestration. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today. >> Thank you. >> It's great to be here. >> Before we get into machine learning let's give the audience an overview of Astronomer. Talk about what that is, Steven. Talk about what you mean by data orchestration. >> Yeah, let's start with Astronomer. We're the Airflow company basically. The commercial developer behind the open-source project, Apache Airflow. I don't know if you've heard of Airflow. It's sort of de-facto standard these days for orchestrating data pipelines, data engineering pipelines, and as we'll talk about later, machine learning pipelines. It's really is the de-facto standard. I think we're up to about 12 million downloads a month. That's actually as a open-source project. I think at this point it's more popular by some measures than Slack. Airflow was created by Airbnb some years ago to manage all of their data pipelines and manage all of their workflows and now it powers the data ecosystem for organizations as diverse as Electronic Arts, Conde Nast is one of our big customers, a big user of Airflow. And also not to mention the biggest banks on Wall Street use Airflow and Astronomer to power the flow of data throughout their organizations. >> Talk about that a little bit more, Steven, in terms of the business impact. You mentioned some great customer names there. What is the business impact or outcomes that a data orchestration strategy enables businesses to achieve? >> Yeah, I mean, at the heart of it is quite simply, scheduling and managing data pipelines. And so if you have some enormous retailer who's managing the flow of information throughout their organization they may literally have thousands or even tens of thousands of data pipelines that need to execute every day to do things as simple as delivering metrics for the executives to consume at the end of the day, to producing on a weekly basis new machine learning models that can be used to drive product recommendations. One of our customers, for example, is a British food delivery service. And you get those recommendations in your application that says, "Well, maybe you want to have samosas with your curry." That sort of thing is powered by machine learning models that they train on a regular basis to reflect changing conditions in the market. And those are produced through Airflow and through the Astronomer platform, which is essentially a managed platform for running airflow. So at its simplest it really is just scheduling and managing those workflows. But that's easier said than done of course. I mean if you have 10 thousands of those things then you need to make sure that they all run that they all have sufficient compute resources. If things fail, how do you track those down across those 10,000 workflows? How easy is it for an average data scientist or data engineer to contribute their code, their Python notebooks or their SQL code into a production environment? And then you've got reproducibility, governance, auditing, like managing data flows across an organization which we think of as orchestrating them is much more than just scheduling. It becomes really complicated pretty quickly. >> I imagine there's a fair amount of complexity there. Jeff, let's bring you into the conversation. Talk a little bit about Astronomer through your lens, data orchestration and how it applies to MLOps. >> So I come from a machine learning background and for me the interesting part is that machine learning requires the expansion into orchestration. A lot of the same things that you're using to go and develop and build pipelines in a standard data orchestration space applies equally well in a machine learning orchestration space. What you're doing is you're moving data between different locations, between different tools, and then tasking different types of tools to act on that data. So extending it made logical sense from a implementation perspective. And a lot of my focus at Astronomer is really to explain how Airflow can be used well in a machine learning context. It is being used well, it is being used a lot by the customers that we have and also by users of the open source version. But it's really being able to explain to people why it's a natural extension for it and how well it fits into that. And a lot of it is also extending some of the infrastructure capabilities that Astronomer provides to those customers for them to be able to run some of the more platform specific requirements that come with doing machine learning pipelines. >> Let's get into some of the things that make Astronomer unique. Jeff, sticking with you, when you're in customer conversations, what are some of the key differentiators that you articulate to customers? >> So a lot of it is that we are not specific to one cloud provider. So we have the ability to operate across all of the big cloud providers. I know, I'm certain we have the best developers that understand how best practices implementations for data orchestration works. So we spend a lot of time talking to not just the business outcomes and the business users of the product, but also also for the technical people, how to help them better implement things that they may have come across on a Stack Overflow article or not necessarily just grown with how the product has migrated. So it's the ability to run it wherever you need to run it and also our ability to help you, the customer, better implement and understand those workflows that I think are two of the primary differentiators that we have. >> Lisa: Got it. >> I'll add another one if you don't mind. >> You can go ahead, Steven. >> Is lineage and dependencies between workflows. One thing we've done is to augment core Airflow with Lineage services. So using the Open Lineage framework, another open source framework for tracking datasets as they move from one workflow to another one, team to another, one data source to another is a really key component of what we do and we bundle that within the service so that as a developer or as a production engineer, you really don't have to worry about lineage, it just happens. Jeff, may show us some of this later that you can actually see as data flows from source through to a data warehouse out through a Python notebook to produce a predictive model or a dashboard. Can you see how those data products relate to each other? And when something goes wrong, figure out what upstream maybe caused the problem, or if you're about to change something, figure out what the impact is going to be on the rest of the organization. So Lineage is a big deal for us. >> Got it. >> And just to add on to that, the other thing to think about is that traditional Airflow is actually a complicated implementation. It required quite a lot of time spent understanding or was almost a bespoke language that you needed to be able to develop in two write these DAGs, which is like fundamental pipelines. So part of what we are focusing on is tooling that makes it more accessible to say a data analyst or a data scientist who doesn't have or really needs to gain the necessary background in how the semantics of Airflow DAGs works to still be able to get the benefit of what Airflow can do. So there is new features and capabilities built into the astronomer cloud platform that effectively obfuscates and removes the need to understand some of the deep work that goes on. But you can still do it, you still have that capability, but we are expanding it to be able to have orchestrated and repeatable processes accessible to more teams within the business. >> In terms of accessibility to more teams in the business. You talked about data scientists, data analysts, developers. Steven, I want to talk to you, as the chief data officer, are you having more and more conversations with that role and how is it emerging and evolving within your customer base? >> Hmm. That's a good question, and it is evolving because I think if you look historically at the way that Airflow has been used it's often from the ground up. You have individual data engineers or maybe single data engineering teams who adopt Airflow 'cause it's very popular. Lots of people know how to use it and they bring it into an organization and say, "Hey, let's use this to run our data pipelines." But then increasingly as you turn from pure workflow management and job scheduling to the larger topic of orchestration you realize it gets pretty complicated, you want to have coordination across teams, and you want to have standardization for the way that you manage your data pipelines. And so having a managed service for Airflow that exists in the cloud is easy to spin up as you expand usage across the organization. And thinking long term about that in the context of orchestration that's where I think the chief data officer or the head of analytics tends to get involved because they really want to think of this as a strategic investment that they're making. Not just per team individual Airflow deployments, but a network of data orchestrators. >> That network is key. Every company these days has to be a data company. We talk about companies being data driven. It's a common word, but it's true. It's whether it is a grocer or a bank or a hospital, they've got to be data companies. So talk to me a little bit about Astronomer's business model. How is this available? How do customers get their hands on it? >> Jeff, go ahead. >> Yeah, yeah. So we have a managed cloud service and we have two modes of operation. One, you can bring your own cloud infrastructure. So you can say here is an account in say, AWS or Azure and we can go and deploy the necessary infrastructure into that, or alternatively we can host everything for you. So it becomes a full SaaS offering. But we then provide a platform that connects at the backend to your internal IDP process. So however you are authenticating users to make sure that the correct people are accessing the services that they need with role-based access control. From there we are deploying through Kubernetes, the different services and capabilities into either your cloud account or into an account that we host. And from there Airflow does what Airflow does, which is its ability to then reach to different data systems and data platforms and to then run the orchestration. We make sure we do it securely, we have all the necessary compliance certifications required for GDPR in Europe and HIPAA based out of the US, and a whole bunch host of others. So it is a secure platform that can run in a place that you need it to run, but it is a managed Airflow that includes a lot of the extra capabilities like the cloud developer environment and the open lineage services to enhance the overall airflow experience. >> Enhance the overall experience. So Steven, going back to you, if I'm a Conde Nast or another organization, what are some of the key business outcomes that I can expect? As one of the things I think we've learned during the pandemic is access to realtime data is no longer a nice to have for organizations. It's really an imperative. It's that demanding consumer that wants to have that personalized, customized, instant access to a product or a service. So if I'm a Conde Nast or I'm one of your customers, what can I expect my business to be able to achieve as a result of data orchestration? >> Yeah, I think in a nutshell it's about providing a reliable, scalable, and easy to use service for developing and running data workflows. And talking of demanding customers, I mean, I'm actually a customer myself, as you mentioned, I'm the head of data for Astronomer. You won't be surprised to hear that we actually use Astronomer and Airflow to run all of our data pipelines. And so I can actually talk about my experience. When I started I was of course familiar with Airflow, but it always seemed a little bit unapproachable to me if I was introducing that to a new team of data scientists. They don't necessarily want to have to think about learning something new. But I think because of the layers that Astronomer has provided with our Astro service around Airflow it was pretty easy for me to get up and running. Of course I've got an incentive for doing that. I work for the Airflow company, but we went from about, at the beginning of last year, about 500 data tasks that we were running on a daily basis to about 15,000 every day. We run something like a million data operations every month within my team. And so as one outcome, just the ability to spin up new production workflows essentially in a single day you go from an idea in the morning to a new dashboard or a new model in the afternoon, that's really the business outcome is just removing that friction to operationalizing your machine learning and data workflows. >> And I imagine too, oh, go ahead, Jeff. >> Yeah, I think to add to that, one of the things that becomes part of the business cycle is a repeatable capabilities for things like reporting, for things like new machine learning models. And the impediment that has existed is that it's difficult to take that from a team that's an analyst team who then provide that or a data science team that then provide that to the data engineering team who have to work the workflow all the way through. What we're trying to unlock is the ability for those teams to directly get access to scheduling and orchestrating capabilities so that a business analyst can have a new report for C-suite execs that needs to be done once a week, but the time to repeatability for that report is much shorter. So it is then immediately in the hands of the person that needs to see it. It doesn't have to go into a long list of to-dos for a data engineering team that's already overworked that they eventually get it to it in a month's time. So that is also a part of it is that the realizing, orchestration I think is fairly well and a lot of people get the benefit of being able to orchestrate things within a business, but it's having more people be able to do it and shorten the time that that repeatability is there is one of the main benefits from good managed orchestration. >> So a lot of workforce productivity improvements in what you're doing to simplify things, giving more people access to data to be able to make those faster decisions, which ultimately helps the end user on the other end to get that product or the service that they're expecting like that. Jeff, I understand you have a demo that you can share so we can kind of dig into this. >> Yeah, let me take you through a quick look of how the whole thing works. So our starting point is our cloud infrastructure. This is the login. You go to the portal. You can see there's a a bunch of workspaces that are available. Workspaces are like individual places for people to operate in. I'm not going to delve into all the deep technical details here, but starting point for a lot of our data science customers is we have what we call our Cloud IDE, which is a web-based development environment for writing and building out DAGs without actually having to know how the underpinnings of Airflow work. This is an internal one, something that we use. You have a notebook-like interface that lets you write python code and SQL code and a bunch of specific bespoke type of blocks if you want. They all get pulled together and create a workflow. So this is a workflow, which gets compiled to something that looks like a complicated set of Python code, which is the DAG. I then have a CICD process pipeline where I commit this through to my GitHub repo. So this comes to a repo here, which is where these DAGs that I created in the previous step exist. I can then go and say, all right, I want to see how those particular DAGs have been running. We then get to the actual Airflow part. So this is the managed Airflow component. So we add the ability for teams to fairly easily bring up an Airflow instance and write code inside our notebook-like environment to get it into that instance. So you can see it's been running. That same process that we built here that graph ends up here inside this, but you don't need to know how the fundamentals of Airflow work in order to get this going. Then we can run one of these, it runs in the background and we can manage how it goes. And from there, every time this runs, it's emitting to a process underneath, which is the open lineage service, which is the lineage integration that allows me to come in here and have a look and see this was that actual, that same graph that we built, but now it's the historic version. So I know where things started, where things are going, and how it ran. And then I can also do a comparison. So if I want to see how this particular run worked compared to one historically, I can grab one from a previous date and it will show me the comparison between the two. So that combination of managed Airflow, getting Airflow up and running very quickly, but the Cloud IDE that lets you write code and know how to get something into a repeatable format get that into Airflow and have that attached to the lineage process adds what is a complete end-to-end orchestration process for any business looking to get the benefit from orchestration. >> Outstanding. Thank you so much Jeff for digging into that. So one of my last questions, Steven is for you. This is exciting. There's a lot that you guys are enabling organizations to achieve here to really become data-driven companies. So where can folks go to get their hands on this? >> Yeah, just go to astronomer.io and we have plenty of resources. If you're new to Airflow, you can read our documentation, our guides to getting started. We have a CLI that you can download that is really I think the easiest way to get started with Airflow. But you can actually sign up for a trial. You can sign up for a guided trial where our teams, we have a team of experts, really the world experts on getting Airflow up and running. And they'll take you through that trial and allow you to actually kick the tires and see how this works with your data. And I think you'll see pretty quickly that it's very easy to get started with Airflow, whether you're doing that from the command line or doing that in our cloud service. And all of that is available on our website >> astronomer.io. Jeff, last question for you. What are you excited about? There's so much going on here. What are some of the things, maybe you can give us a sneak peek coming down the road here that prospects and existing customers should be excited about? >> I think a lot of the development around the data awareness components, so one of the things that's traditionally been complicated with orchestration is you leave your data in the place that you're operating on and we're starting to have more data processing capability being built into Airflow. And from a Astronomer perspective, we are adding more capabilities around working with larger datasets, doing bigger data manipulation with inside the Airflow process itself. And that lends itself to better machine learning implementation. So as we start to grow and as we start to get better in the machine learning context, well, in the data awareness context, it unlocks a lot more capability to do and implement proper machine learning pipelines. >> Awesome guys. Exciting stuff. Thank you so much for talking to me about Astronomer, machine learning, data orchestration, and really the value in it for your customers. Steve and Jeff, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> My pleasure, thanks. >> And we thank you for watching. This is season three, episode one of our ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCube's presentation of the "AWS Startup Showcase." The topic this episode is AI and machine learning, top startups building foundational model infrastructure. This is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. And this time we're talking about AI and machine learning. I'm your host, John Furrier. I'm excited I'm joined today by Robert Nishihara, who's the co-founder and CEO of a hot startup called Anyscale. He's here to talk about Ray, the open source project, Anyscale's infrastructure for foundation as well. Robert, thank you for joining us today. >> Yeah, thanks so much as well. >> I've been following your company since the founding pre pandemic and you guys really had a great vision scaled up and in a perfect position for this big wave that we all see with ChatGPT and OpenAI that's gone mainstream. Finally, AI has broken out through the ropes and now gone mainstream, so I think you guys are really well positioned. I'm looking forward to to talking with you today. But before we get into it, introduce the core mission for Anyscale. Why do you guys exist? What is the North Star for Anyscale? >> Yeah, like you mentioned, there's a tremendous amount of excitement about AI right now. You know, I think a lot of us believe that AI can transform just every different industry. So one of the things that was clear to us when we started this company was that the amount of compute needed to do AI was just exploding. Like to actually succeed with AI, companies like OpenAI or Google or you know, these companies getting a lot of value from AI, were not just running these machine learning models on their laptops or on a single machine. They were scaling these applications across hundreds or thousands or more machines and GPUs and other resources in the Cloud. And so to actually succeed with AI, and this has been one of the biggest trends in computing, maybe the biggest trend in computing in, you know, in recent history, the amount of compute has been exploding. And so to actually succeed with that AI, to actually build these scalable applications and scale the AI applications, there's a tremendous software engineering lift to build the infrastructure to actually run these scalable applications. And that's very hard to do. So one of the reasons many AI projects and initiatives fail is that, or don't make it to production, is the need for this scale, the infrastructure lift, to actually make it happen. So our goal here with Anyscale and Ray, is to make that easy, is to make scalable computing easy. So that as a developer or as a business, if you want to do AI, if you want to get value out of AI, all you need to know is how to program on your laptop. Like, all you need to know is how to program in Python. And if you can do that, then you're good to go. Then you can do what companies like OpenAI or Google do and get value out of machine learning. >> That programming example of how easy it is with Python reminds me of the early days of Cloud, when infrastructure as code was talked about was, it was just code the infrastructure programmable. That's super important. That's what AI people wanted, first program AI. That's the new trend. And I want to understand, if you don't mind explaining, the relationship that Anyscale has to these foundational models and particular the large language models, also called LLMs, was seen with like OpenAI and ChatGPT. Before you get into the relationship that you have with them, can you explain why the hype around foundational models? Why are people going crazy over foundational models? What is it and why is it so important? >> Yeah, so foundational models and foundation models are incredibly important because they enable businesses and developers to get value out of machine learning, to use machine learning off the shelf with these large models that have been trained on tons of data and that are useful out of the box. And then, of course, you know, as a business or as a developer, you can take those foundational models and repurpose them or fine tune them or adapt them to your specific use case and what you want to achieve. But it's much easier to do that than to train them from scratch. And I think there are three, for people to actually use foundation models, there are three main types of workloads or problems that need to be solved. One is training these foundation models in the first place, like actually creating them. The second is fine tuning them and adapting them to your use case. And the third is serving them and actually deploying them. Okay, so Ray and Anyscale are used for all of these three different workloads. Companies like OpenAI or Cohere that train large language models. Or open source versions like GPTJ are done on top of Ray. There are many startups and other businesses that fine tune, that, you know, don't want to train the large underlying foundation models, but that do want to fine tune them, do want to adapt them to their purposes, and build products around them and serve them, those are also using Ray and Anyscale for that fine tuning and that serving. And so the reason that Ray and Anyscale are important here is that, you know, building and using foundation models requires a huge scale. It requires a lot of data. It requires a lot of compute, GPUs, TPUs, other resources. And to actually take advantage of that and actually build these scalable applications, there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to happen under the hood. And so you can either use Ray and Anyscale to take care of that and manage the infrastructure and solve those infrastructure problems. Or you can build the infrastructure and manage the infrastructure yourself, which you can do, but it's going to slow your team down. It's going to, you know, many of the businesses we work with simply don't want to be in the business of managing infrastructure and building infrastructure. They want to focus on product development and move faster. >> I know you got a keynote presentation we're going to go to in a second, but I think you hit on something I think is the real tipping point, doing it yourself, hard to do. These are things where opportunities are and the Cloud did that with data centers. Turned a data center and made it an API. The heavy lifting went away and went to the Cloud so people could be more creative and build their product. In this case, build their creativity. Is that kind of what's the big deal? Is that kind of a big deal happening that you guys are taking the learnings and making that available so people don't have to do that? >> That's exactly right. So today, if you want to succeed with AI, if you want to use AI in your business, infrastructure work is on the critical path for doing that. To do AI, you have to build infrastructure. You have to figure out how to scale your applications. That's going to change. We're going to get to the point, and you know, with Ray and Anyscale, we're going to remove the infrastructure from the critical path so that as a developer or as a business, all you need to focus on is your application logic, what you want the the program to do, what you want your application to do, how you want the AI to actually interface with the rest of your product. Now the way that will happen is that Ray and Anyscale will still, the infrastructure work will still happen. It'll just be under the hood and taken care of by Ray in Anyscale. And so I think something like this is really necessary for AI to reach its potential, for AI to have the impact and the reach that we think it will, you have to make it easier to do. >> And just for clarification to point out, if you don't mind explaining the relationship of Ray and Anyscale real quick just before we get into the presentation. >> So Ray is an open source project. We created it. We were at Berkeley doing machine learning. We started Ray so that, in order to provide an easy, a simple open source tool for building and running scalable applications. And Anyscale is the managed version of Ray, basically we will run Ray for you in the Cloud, provide a lot of tools around the developer experience and managing the infrastructure and providing more performance and superior infrastructure. >> Awesome. I know you got a presentation on Ray and Anyscale and you guys are positioning as the infrastructure for foundational models. So I'll let you take it away and then when you're done presenting, we'll come back, I'll probably grill you with a few questions and then we'll close it out so take it away. >> Robert: Sounds great. So I'll say a little bit about how companies are using Ray and Anyscale for foundation models. The first thing I want to mention is just why we're doing this in the first place. And the underlying observation, the underlying trend here, and this is a plot from OpenAI, is that the amount of compute needed to do machine learning has been exploding. It's been growing at something like 35 times every 18 months. This is absolutely enormous. And other people have written papers measuring this trend and you get different numbers. But the point is, no matter how you slice and dice it, it' a astronomical rate. Now if you compare that to something we're all familiar with, like Moore's Law, which says that, you know, the processor performance doubles every roughly 18 months, you can see that there's just a tremendous gap between the needs, the compute needs of machine learning applications, and what you can do with a single chip, right. So even if Moore's Law were continuing strong and you know, doing what it used to be doing, even if that were the case, there would still be a tremendous gap between what you can do with the chip and what you need in order to do machine learning. And so given this graph, what we've seen, and what has been clear to us since we started this company, is that doing AI requires scaling. There's no way around it. It's not a nice to have, it's really a requirement. And so that led us to start Ray, which is the open source project that we started to make it easy to build these scalable Python applications and scalable machine learning applications. And since we started the project, it's been adopted by a tremendous number of companies. Companies like OpenAI, which use Ray to train their large models like ChatGPT, companies like Uber, which run all of their deep learning and classical machine learning on top of Ray, companies like Shopify or Spotify or Instacart or Lyft or Netflix, ByteDance, which use Ray for their machine learning infrastructure. Companies like Ant Group, which makes Alipay, you know, they use Ray across the board for fraud detection, for online learning, for detecting money laundering, you know, for graph processing, stream processing. Companies like Amazon, you know, run Ray at a tremendous scale and just petabytes of data every single day. And so the project has seen just enormous adoption since, over the past few years. And one of the most exciting use cases is really providing the infrastructure for building training, fine tuning, and serving foundation models. So I'll say a little bit about, you know, here are some examples of companies using Ray for foundation models. Cohere trains large language models. OpenAI also trains large language models. You can think about the workloads required there are things like supervised pre-training, also reinforcement learning from human feedback. So this is not only the regular supervised learning, but actually more complex reinforcement learning workloads that take human input about what response to a particular question, you know is better than a certain other response. And incorporating that into the learning. There's open source versions as well, like GPTJ also built on top of Ray as well as projects like Alpa coming out of UC Berkeley. So these are some of the examples of exciting projects in organizations, training and creating these large language models and serving them using Ray. Okay, so what actually is Ray? Well, there are two layers to Ray. At the lowest level, there's the core Ray system. This is essentially low level primitives for building scalable Python applications. Things like taking a Python function or a Python class and executing them in the cluster setting. So Ray core is extremely flexible and you can build arbitrary scalable applications on top of Ray. So on top of Ray, on top of the core system, what really gives Ray a lot of its power is this ecosystem of scalable libraries. So on top of the core system you have libraries, scalable libraries for ingesting and pre-processing data, for training your models, for fine tuning those models, for hyper parameter tuning, for doing batch processing and batch inference, for doing model serving and deployment, right. And a lot of the Ray users, the reason they like Ray is that they want to run multiple workloads. They want to train and serve their models, right. They want to load their data and feed that into training. And Ray provides common infrastructure for all of these different workloads. So this is a little overview of what Ray, the different components of Ray. So why do people choose to go with Ray? I think there are three main reasons. The first is the unified nature. The fact that it is common infrastructure for scaling arbitrary workloads, from data ingest to pre-processing to training to inference and serving, right. This also includes the fact that it's future proof. AI is incredibly fast moving. And so many people, many companies that have built their own machine learning infrastructure and standardized on particular workflows for doing machine learning have found that their workflows are too rigid to enable new capabilities. If they want to do reinforcement learning, if they want to use graph neural networks, they don't have a way of doing that with their standard tooling. And so Ray, being future proof and being flexible and general gives them that ability. Another reason people choose Ray in Anyscale is the scalability. This is really our bread and butter. This is the reason, the whole point of Ray, you know, making it easy to go from your laptop to running on thousands of GPUs, making it easy to scale your development workloads and run them in production, making it easy to scale, you know, training to scale data ingest, pre-processing and so on. So scalability and performance, you know, are critical for doing machine learning and that is something that Ray provides out of the box. And lastly, Ray is an open ecosystem. You can run it anywhere. You can run it on any Cloud provider. Google, you know, Google Cloud, AWS, Asure. You can run it on your Kubernetes cluster. You can run it on your laptop. It's extremely portable. And not only that, it's framework agnostic. You can use Ray to scale arbitrary Python workloads. You can use it to scale and it integrates with libraries like TensorFlow or PyTorch or JAX or XG Boost or Hugging Face or PyTorch Lightning, right, or Scikit-learn or just your own arbitrary Python code. It's open source. And in addition to integrating with the rest of the machine learning ecosystem and these machine learning frameworks, you can use Ray along with all of the other tooling in the machine learning ecosystem. That's things like weights and biases or ML flow, right. Or you know, different data platforms like Databricks, you know, Delta Lake or Snowflake or tools for model monitoring for feature stores, all of these integrate with Ray. And that's, you know, Ray provides that kind of flexibility so that you can integrate it into the rest of your workflow. And then Anyscale is the scalable compute platform that's built on top, you know, that provides Ray. So Anyscale is a managed Ray service that runs in the Cloud. And what Anyscale does is it offers the best way to run Ray. And if you think about what you get with Anyscale, there are fundamentally two things. One is about moving faster, accelerating the time to market. And you get that by having the managed service so that as a developer you don't have to worry about managing infrastructure, you don't have to worry about configuring infrastructure. You also, it provides, you know, optimized developer workflows. Things like easily moving from development to production, things like having the observability tooling, the debug ability to actually easily diagnose what's going wrong in a distributed application. So things like the dashboards and the other other kinds of tooling for collaboration, for monitoring and so on. And then on top of that, so that's the first bucket, developer productivity, moving faster, faster experimentation and iteration. The second reason that people choose Anyscale is superior infrastructure. So this is things like, you know, cost deficiency, being able to easily take advantage of spot instances, being able to get higher GPU utilization, things like faster cluster startup times and auto scaling. Things like just overall better performance and faster scheduling. And so these are the kinds of things that Anyscale provides on top of Ray. It's the managed infrastructure. It's fast, it's like the developer productivity and velocity as well as performance. So this is what I wanted to share about Ray in Anyscale. >> John: Awesome. >> Provide that context. But John, I'm curious what you think. >> I love it. I love the, so first of all, it's a platform because that's the platform architecture right there. So just to clarify, this is an Anyscale platform, not- >> That's right. >> Tools. So you got tools in the platform. Okay, that's key. Love that managed service. Just curious, you mentioned Python multiple times, is that because of PyTorch and TensorFlow or Python's the most friendly with machine learning or it's because it's very common amongst all developers? >> That's a great question. Python is the language that people are using to do machine learning. So it's the natural starting point. Now, of course, Ray is actually designed in a language agnostic way and there are companies out there that use Ray to build scalable Java applications. But for the most part right now we're focused on Python and being the best way to build these scalable Python and machine learning applications. But, of course, down the road there always is that potential. >> So if you're slinging Python code out there and you're watching that, you're watching this video, get on Anyscale bus quickly. Also, I just, while you were giving the presentation, I couldn't help, since you mentioned OpenAI, which by the way, congratulations 'cause they've had great scale, I've noticed in their rapid growth 'cause they were the fastest company to the number of users than anyone in the history of the computer industry, so major successor, OpenAI and ChatGPT, huge fan. I'm not a skeptic at all. I think it's just the beginning, so congratulations. But I actually typed into ChatGPT, what are the top three benefits of Anyscale and came up with scalability, flexibility, and ease of use. Obviously, scalability is what you guys are called. >> That's pretty good. >> So that's what they came up with. So they nailed it. Did you have an inside prompt training, buy it there? Only kidding. (Robert laughs) >> Yeah, we hard coded that one. >> But that's the kind of thing that came up really, really quickly if I asked it to write a sales document, it probably will, but this is the future interface. This is why people are getting excited about the foundational models and the large language models because it's allowing the interface with the user, the consumer, to be more human, more natural. And this is clearly will be in every application in the future. >> Absolutely. This is how people are going to interface with software, how they're going to interface with products in the future. It's not just something, you know, not just a chat bot that you talk to. This is going to be how you get things done, right. How you use your web browser or how you use, you know, how you use Photoshop or how you use other products. Like you're not going to spend hours learning all the APIs and how to use them. You're going to talk to it and tell it what you want it to do. And of course, you know, if it doesn't understand it, it's going to ask clarifying questions. You're going to have a conversation and then it'll figure it out. >> This is going to be one of those things, we're going to look back at this time Robert and saying, "Yeah, from that company, that was the beginning of that wave." And just like AWS and Cloud Computing, the folks who got in early really were in position when say the pandemic came. So getting in early is a good thing and that's what everyone's talking about is getting in early and playing around, maybe replatforming or even picking one or few apps to refactor with some staff and managed services. So people are definitely jumping in. So I have to ask you the ROI cost question. You mentioned some of those, Moore's Law versus what's going on in the industry. When you look at that kind of scale, the first thing that jumps out at people is, "Okay, I love it. Let's go play around." But what's it going to cost me? Am I going to be tied to certain GPUs? What's the landscape look like from an operational standpoint, from the customer? Are they locked in and the benefit was flexibility, are you flexible to handle any Cloud? What is the customers, what are they looking at? Basically, that's my question. What's the customer looking at? >> Cost is super important here and many of the companies, I mean, companies are spending a huge amount on their Cloud computing, on AWS, and on doing AI, right. And I think a lot of the advantage of Anyscale, what we can provide here is not only better performance, but cost efficiency. Because if we can run something faster and more efficiently, it can also use less resources and you can lower your Cloud spending, right. We've seen companies go from, you know, 20% GPU utilization with their current setup and the current tools they're using to running on Anyscale and getting more like 95, you know, 100% GPU utilization. That's something like a five x improvement right there. So depending on the kind of application you're running, you know, it's a significant cost savings. We've seen companies that have, you know, processing petabytes of data every single day with Ray going from, you know, getting order of magnitude cost savings by switching from what they were previously doing to running their application on Ray. And when you have applications that are spending, you know, potentially $100 million a year and getting a 10 X cost savings is just absolutely enormous. So these are some of the kinds of- >> Data infrastructure is super important. Again, if the customer, if you're a prospect to this and thinking about going in here, just like the Cloud, you got infrastructure, you got the platform, you got SaaS, same kind of thing's going to go on in AI. So I want to get into that, you know, ROI discussion and some of the impact with your customers that are leveraging the platform. But first I hear you got a demo. >> Robert: Yeah, so let me show you, let me give you a quick run through here. So what I have open here is the Anyscale UI. I've started a little Anyscale Workspace. So Workspaces are the Anyscale concept for interactive developments, right. So here, imagine I'm just, you want to have a familiar experience like you're developing on your laptop. And here I have a terminal. It's not on my laptop. It's actually in the cloud running on Anyscale. And I'm just going to kick this off. This is going to train a large language model, so OPT. And it's doing this on 32 GPUs. We've got a cluster here with a bunch of CPU cores, bunch of memory. And as that's running, and by the way, if I wanted to run this on instead of 32 GPUs, 64, 128, this is just a one line change when I launch the Workspace. And what I can do is I can pull up VS code, right. Remember this is the interactive development experience. I can look at the actual code. Here it's using Ray train to train the torch model. We've got the training loop and we're saying that each worker gets access to one GPU and four CPU cores. And, of course, as I make the model larger, this is using deep speed, as I make the model larger, I could increase the number of GPUs that each worker gets access to, right. And how that is distributed across the cluster. And if I wanted to run on CPUs instead of GPUs or a different, you know, accelerator type, again, this is just a one line change. And here we're using Ray train to train the models, just taking my vanilla PyTorch model using Hugging Face and then scaling that across a bunch of GPUs. And, of course, if I want to look at the dashboard, I can go to the Ray dashboard. There are a bunch of different visualizations I can look at. I can look at the GPU utilization. I can look at, you know, the CPU utilization here where I think we're currently loading the model and running that actual application to start the training. And some of the things that are really convenient here about Anyscale, both I can get that interactive development experience with VS code. You know, I can look at the dashboards. I can monitor what's going on. It feels, I have a terminal, it feels like my laptop, but it's actually running on a large cluster. And I can, with however many GPUs or other resources that I want. And so it's really trying to combine the best of having the familiar experience of programming on your laptop, but with the benefits, you know, being able to take advantage of all the resources in the Cloud to scale. And it's like when, you know, you're talking about cost efficiency. One of the biggest reasons that people waste money, one of the silly reasons for wasting money is just forgetting to turn off your GPUs. And what you can do here is, of course, things will auto terminate if they're idle. But imagine you go to sleep, I have this big cluster. You can turn it off, shut off the cluster, come back tomorrow, restart the Workspace, and you know, your big cluster is back up and all of your code changes are still there. All of your local file edits. It's like you just closed your laptop and came back and opened it up again. And so this is the kind of experience we want to provide for our users. So that's what I wanted to share with you. >> Well, I think that whole, couple of things, lines of code change, single line of code change, that's game changing. And then the cost thing, I mean human error is a big deal. People pass out at their computer. They've been coding all night or they just forget about it. I mean, and then it's just like leaving the lights on or your water running in your house. It's just, at the scale that it is, the numbers will add up. That's a huge deal. So I think, you know, compute back in the old days, there's no compute. Okay, it's just compute sitting there idle. But you know, data cranking the models is doing, that's a big point. >> Another thing I want to add there about cost efficiency is that we make it really easy to use, if you're running on Anyscale, to use spot instances and these preemptable instances that can just be significantly cheaper than the on-demand instances. And so when we see our customers go from what they're doing before to using Anyscale and they go from not using these spot instances 'cause they don't have the infrastructure around it, the fault tolerance to handle the preemption and things like that, to being able to just check a box and use spot instances and save a bunch of money. >> You know, this was my whole, my feature article at Reinvent last year when I met with Adam Selipsky, this next gen Cloud is here. I mean, it's not auto scale, it's infrastructure scale. It's agility. It's flexibility. I think this is where the world needs to go. Almost what DevOps did for Cloud and what you were showing me that demo had this whole SRE vibe. And remember Google had site reliability engines to manage all those servers. This is kind of like an SRE vibe for data at scale. I mean, a similar kind of order of magnitude. I mean, I might be a little bit off base there, but how would you explain it? >> It's a nice analogy. I mean, what we are trying to do here is get to the point where developers don't think about infrastructure. Where developers only think about their application logic. And where businesses can do AI, can succeed with AI, and build these scalable applications, but they don't have to build, you know, an infrastructure team. They don't have to develop that expertise. They don't have to invest years in building their internal machine learning infrastructure. They can just focus on the Python code, on their application logic, and run the stuff out of the box. >> Awesome. Well, I appreciate the time. Before we wrap up here, give a plug for the company. I know you got a couple websites. Again, go, Ray's got its own website. You got Anyscale. You got an event coming up. Give a plug for the company looking to hire. Put a plug in for the company. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So first of all, you know, we think AI is really going to transform every industry and the opportunity is there, right. We can be the infrastructure that enables all of that to happen, that makes it easy for companies to succeed with AI, and get value out of AI. Now we have, if you're interested in learning more about Ray, Ray has been emerging as the standard way to build scalable applications. Our adoption has been exploding. I mentioned companies like OpenAI using Ray to train their models. But really across the board companies like Netflix and Cruise and Instacart and Lyft and Uber, you know, just among tech companies. It's across every industry. You know, gaming companies, agriculture, you know, farming, robotics, drug discovery, you know, FinTech, we see it across the board. And all of these companies can get value out of AI, can really use AI to improve their businesses. So if you're interested in learning more about Ray and Anyscale, we have our Ray Summit coming up in September. This is going to highlight a lot of the most impressive use cases and stories across the industry. And if your business, if you want to use LLMs, you want to train these LLMs, these large language models, you want to fine tune them with your data, you want to deploy them, serve them, and build applications and products around them, give us a call, talk to us. You know, we can really take the infrastructure piece, you know, off the critical path and make that easy for you. So that's what I would say. And, you know, like you mentioned, we're hiring across the board, you know, engineering, product, go-to-market, and it's an exciting time. >> Robert Nishihara, co-founder and CEO of Anyscale, congratulations on a great company you've built and continuing to iterate on and you got growth ahead of you, you got a tailwind. I mean, the AI wave is here. I think OpenAI and ChatGPT, a customer of yours, have really opened up the mainstream visibility into this new generation of applications, user interface, roll of data, large scale, how to make that programmable so we're going to need that infrastructure. So thanks for coming on this season three, episode one of the ongoing series of the hot startups. In this case, this episode is the top startups building foundational model infrastructure for AI and ML. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(light airy music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, AI and machine learning. "Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS." This is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talking about AI machine learning. We have three great guests Bratin Saha, VP, Vice President of Machine Learning and AI Services at Amazon Web Services. Tom Mason, the CTO of Stability AI, and Aidan Gomez, CEO and co-founder of Cohere. Two practitioners doing startups and AWS. Gentlemen, thank you for opening up this session, this episode. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So the topic is hype versus reality. So I think we're all on the reality is great, hype is great, but the reality's here. I want to get into it. Generative AI's got all the momentum, it's going mainstream, it's kind of come out of the behind the ropes, it's now mainstream. We saw the success of ChatGPT, opens up everyone's eyes, but there's so much more going on. Let's jump in and get your early perspectives on what should people be talking about right now? What are you guys working on? We'll start with AWS. What's the big focus right now for you guys as you come into this market that's highly active, highly hyped up, but people see value right out of the gate? >> You know, we have been working on generative AI for some time. In fact, last year we released Code Whisperer, which is about using generative AI for software development and a number of customers are using it and getting real value out of it. So generative AI is now something that's mainstream that can be used by enterprise users. And we have also been partnering with a number of other companies. So, you know, stability.ai, we've been partnering with them a lot. We want to be partnering with other companies as well. In seeing how we do three things, you know, first is providing the most efficient infrastructure for generative AI. And that is where, you know, things like Trainium, things like Inferentia, things like SageMaker come in. And then next is the set of models and then the third is the kind of applications like Code Whisperer and so on. So, you know, it's early days yet, but clearly there's a lot of amazing capabilities that will come out and something that, you know, our customers are starting to pay a lot of attention to. >> Tom, talk about your company and what your focus is and why the Amazon Web Services relationship's important for you? >> So yeah, we're primarily committed to making incredible open source foundation models and obviously stable effusions been our kind of first big model there, which we trained all on AWS. We've been working with them over the last year and a half to develop, obviously a big cluster, and bring all that compute to training these models at scale, which has been a really successful partnership. And we're excited to take it further this year as we develop commercial strategy of the business and build out, you know, the ability for enterprise customers to come and get all the value from these models that we think they can get. So we're really excited about the future. We got hugely exciting pipeline for this year with new modalities and video models and wonderful things and trying to solve images for once and for all and get the kind of general value and value proposition correct for customers. So it's a really exciting time and very honored to be part of it. >> It's great to see some of your customers doing so well out there. Congratulations to your team. Appreciate that. Aidan, let's get into what you guys do. What does Cohere do? What are you excited about right now? >> Yeah, so Cohere builds large language models, which are the backbone of applications like ChatGPT and GPT-3. We're extremely focused on solving the issues with adoption for enterprise. So it's great that you can make a super flashy demo for consumers, but it takes a lot to actually get it into billion user products and large global enterprises. So about six months ago, we released our command models, which are some of the best that exist for large language models. And in December, we released our multilingual text understanding models and that's on over a hundred different languages and it's trained on, you know, authentic data directly from native speakers. And so we're super excited to continue pushing this into enterprise and solving those barriers for adoption, making this transformation a reality. >> Just real quick, while I got you there on the new products coming out. Where are we in the progress? People see some of the new stuff out there right now. There's so much more headroom. Can you just scope out in your mind what that looks like? Like from a headroom standpoint? Okay, we see ChatGPT. "Oh yeah, it writes my papers for me, does some homework for me." I mean okay, yawn, maybe people say that, (Aidan chuckles) people excited or people are blown away. I mean, it's helped theCUBE out, it helps me, you know, feed up a little bit from my write-ups but it's not always perfect. >> Yeah, at the moment it's like a writing assistant, right? And it's still super early in the technologies trajectory. I think it's fascinating and it's interesting but its impact is still really limited. I think in the next year, like within the next eight months, we're going to see some major changes. You've already seen the very first hints of that with stuff like Bing Chat, where you augment these dialogue models with an external knowledge base. So now the models can be kept up to date to the millisecond, right? Because they can search the web and they can see events that happened a millisecond ago. But that's still limited in the sense that when you ask the question, what can these models actually do? Well they can just write text back at you. That's the extent of what they can do. And so the real project, the real effort, that I think we're all working towards is actually taking action. So what happens when you give these models the ability to use tools, to use APIs? What can they do when they can actually affect change out in the real world, beyond just streaming text back at the user? I think that's the really exciting piece. >> Okay, so I wanted to tee that up early in the segment 'cause I want to get into the customer applications. We're seeing early adopters come in, using the technology because they have a lot of data, they have a lot of large language model opportunities and then there's a big fast follower wave coming behind it. I call that the people who are going to jump in the pool early and get into it. They might not be advanced. Can you guys share what customer applications are being used with large language and vision models today and how they're using it to transform on the early adopter side, and how is that a tell sign of what's to come? >> You know, one of the things we have been seeing both with the text models that Aidan talked about as well as the vision models that stability.ai does, Tom, is customers are really using it to change the way you interact with information. You know, one example of a customer that we have, is someone who's kind of using that to query customer conversations and ask questions like, you know, "What was the customer issue? How did we solve it?" And trying to get those kinds of insights that was previously much harder to do. And then of course software is a big area. You know, generating software, making that, you know, just deploying it in production. Those have been really big areas that we have seen customers start to do. You know, looking at documentation, like instead of you know, searching for stuff and so on, you know, you just have an interactive way, in which you can just look at the documentation for a product. You know, all of this goes to where we need to take the technology. One of which is, you know, the models have to be there but they have to work reliably in a production setting at scale, with privacy, with security, and you know, making sure all of this is happening, is going to be really key. That is what, you know, we at AWS are looking to do, which is work with partners like stability and others and in the open source and really take all of these and make them available at scale to customers, where they work reliably. >> Tom, Aidan, what's your thoughts on this? Where are customers landing on this first use cases or set of low-hanging fruit use cases or applications? >> Yeah, so I think like the first group of adopters that really found product market fit were the copywriting companies. So one great example of that is HyperWrite. Another one is Jasper. And so for Cohere, that's the tip of the iceberg, like there's a very long tail of usage from a bunch of different applications. HyperWrite is one of our customers, they help beat writer's block by drafting blog posts, emails, and marketing copy. We also have a global audio streaming platform, which is using us the power of search engine that can comb through podcast transcripts, in a bunch of different languages. Then a global apparel brand, which is using us to transform how they interact with their customers through a virtual assistant, two dozen global news outlets who are using us for news summarization. So really like, these large language models, they can be deployed all over the place into every single industry sector, language is everywhere. It's hard to think of any company on Earth that doesn't use language. So it's, very, very- >> We're doing it right now. We got the language coming in. >> Exactly. >> We'll transcribe this puppy. All right. Tom, on your side, what do you see the- >> Yeah, we're seeing some amazing applications of it and you know, I guess that's partly been, because of the growth in the open source community and some of these applications have come from there that are then triggering this secondary wave of innovation, which is coming a lot from, you know, controllability and explainability of the model. But we've got companies like, you know, Jasper, which Aidan mentioned, who are using stable diffusion for image generation in block creation, content creation. We've got Lensa, you know, which exploded, and is built on top of stable diffusion for fine tuning so people can bring themselves and their pets and you know, everything into the models. So we've now got fine tuned stable diffusion at scale, which is democratized, you know, that process, which is really fun to see your Lensa, you know, exploded. You know, I think it was the largest growing app in the App Store at one point. And lots of other examples like NightCafe and Lexica and Playground. So seeing lots of cool applications. >> So much applications, we'll probably be a customer for all you guys. We'll definitely talk after. But the challenges are there for people adopting, they want to get into what you guys see as the challenges that turn into opportunities. How do you see the customers adopting generative AI applications? For example, we have massive amounts of transcripts, timed up to all the videos. I don't even know what to do. Do I just, do I code my API there. So, everyone has this problem, every vertical has these use cases. What are the challenges for people getting into this and adopting these applications? Is it figuring out what to do first? Or is it a technical setup? Do they stand up stuff, they just go to Amazon? What do you guys see as the challenges? >> I think, you know, the first thing is coming up with where you think you're going to reimagine your customer experience by using generative AI. You know, we talked about Ada, and Tom talked about a number of these ones and you know, you pick up one or two of these, to get that robust. And then once you have them, you know, we have models and we'll have more models on AWS, these large language models that Aidan was talking about. Then you go in and start using these models and testing them out and seeing whether they fit in use case or not. In many situations, like you said, John, our customers want to say, "You know, I know you've trained these models on a lot of publicly available data, but I want to be able to customize it for my use cases. Because, you know, there's some knowledge that I have created and I want to be able to use that." And then in many cases, and I think Aidan mentioned this. You know, you need these models to be up to date. Like you can't have it staying. And in those cases, you augmented with a knowledge base, you know you have to make sure that these models are not hallucinating. And so you need to be able to do the right kind of responsible AI checks. So, you know, you start with a particular use case, and there are a lot of them. Then, you know, you can come to AWS, and then look at one of the many models we have and you know, we are going to have more models for other modalities as well. And then, you know, play around with the models. We have a playground kind of thing where you can test these models on some data and then you can probably, you will probably want to bring your own data, customize it to your own needs, do some of the testing to make sure that the model is giving the right output and then just deploy it. And you know, we have a lot of tools. >> Yeah. >> To make this easy for our customers. >> How should people think about large language models? Because do they think about it as something that they tap into with their IP or their data? Or is it a large language model that they apply into their system? Is the interface that way? What's the interaction look like? >> In many situations, you can use these models out of the box. But in typical, in most of the other situations, you will want to customize it with your own data or with your own expectations. So the typical use case would be, you know, these are models are exposed through APIs. So the typical use case would be, you know you're using these APIs a little bit for testing and getting familiar and then there will be an API that will allow you to train this model further on your data. So you use that AI, you know, make sure you augmented the knowledge base. So then you use those APIs to customize the model and then just deploy it in an application. You know, like Tom was mentioning, a number of companies that are using these models. So once you have it, then you know, you again, use an endpoint API and use it in an application. >> All right, I love the example. I want to ask Tom and Aidan, because like most my experience with Amazon Web Service in 2007, I would stand up in EC2, put my code on there, play around, if it didn't work out, I'd shut it down. Is that a similar dynamic we're going to see with the machine learning where developers just kind of log in and stand up infrastructure and play around and then have a cloud-like experience? >> So I can go first. So I mean, we obviously, with AWS working really closely with the SageMaker team, do fantastic platform there for ML training and inference. And you know, going back to your point earlier, you know, where the data is, is hugely important for companies. Many companies bringing their models to their data in AWS on-premise for them is hugely important. Having the models to be, you know, open sources, makes them explainable and transparent to the adopters of those models. So, you know, we are really excited to work with the SageMaker team over the coming year to bring companies to that platform and make the most of our models. >> Aidan, what's your take on developers? Do they just need to have a team in place, if we want to interface with you guys? Let's say, can they start learning? What do they got to do to set up? >> Yeah, so I think for Cohere, our product makes it much, much easier to people, for people to get started and start building, it solves a lot of the productionization problems. But of course with SageMaker, like Tom was saying, I think that lowers a barrier even further because it solves problems like data privacy. So I want to underline what Bratin was saying earlier around when you're fine tuning or when you're using these models, you don't want your data being incorporated into someone else's model. You don't want it being used for training elsewhere. And so the ability to solve for enterprises, that data privacy and that security guarantee has been hugely important for Cohere, and that's very easy to do through SageMaker. >> Yeah. >> But the barriers for using this technology are coming down super quickly. And so for developers, it's just becoming completely intuitive. I love this, there's this quote from Andrej Karpathy. He was saying like, "It really wasn't on my 2022 list of things to happen that English would become, you know, the most popular programming language." And so the barrier is coming down- >> Yeah. >> Super quickly and it's exciting to see. >> It's going to be awesome for all the companies here, and then we'll do more, we're probably going to see explosion of startups, already seeing that, the maps, ecosystem maps, the landscape maps are happening. So this is happening and I'm convinced it's not yesterday's chat bot, it's not yesterday's AI Ops. It's a whole another ballgame. So I have to ask you guys for the final question before we kick off the company's showcasing here. How do you guys gauge success of generative AI applications? Is there a lens to look through and say, okay, how do I see success? It could be just getting a win or is it a bigger picture? Bratin we'll start with you. How do you gauge success for generative AI? >> You know, ultimately it's about bringing business value to our customers. And making sure that those customers are able to reimagine their experiences by using generative AI. Now the way to get their ease, of course to deploy those models in a safe, effective manner, and ensuring that all of the robustness and the security guarantees and the privacy guarantees are all there. And we want to make sure that this transitions from something that's great demos to actual at scale products, which means making them work reliably all of the time not just some of the time. >> Tom, what's your gauge for success? >> Look, I think this, we're seeing a completely new form of ways to interact with data, to make data intelligent, and directly to bring in new revenue streams into business. So if businesses can use our models to leverage that and generate completely new revenue streams and ultimately bring incredible new value to their customers, then that's fantastic. And we hope we can power that revolution. >> Aidan, what's your take? >> Yeah, reiterating Bratin and Tom's point, I think that value in the enterprise and value in market is like a huge, you know, it's the goal that we're striving towards. I also think that, you know, the value to consumers and actual users and the transformation of the surface area of technology to create experiences like ChatGPT that are magical and it's the first time in human history we've been able to talk to something compelling that's not a human. I think that in itself is just extraordinary and so exciting to see. >> It really brings up a whole another category of markets. B2B, B2C, it's B2D, business to developer. Because I think this is kind of the big trend the consumers have to win. The developers coding the apps, it's a whole another sea change. Reminds me everyone use the "Moneyball" movie as example during the big data wave. Then you know, the value of data. There's a scene in "Moneyball" at the end, where Billy Beane's getting the offer from the Red Sox, then the owner says to the Red Sox, "If every team's not rebuilding their teams based upon your model, there'll be dinosaurs." I think that's the same with AI here. Every company will have to need to think about their business model and how they operate with AI. So it'll be a great run. >> Completely Agree >> It'll be a great run. >> Yeah. >> Aidan, Tom, thank you so much for sharing about your experiences at your companies and congratulations on your success and it's just the beginning. And Bratin, thanks for coming on representing AWS. And thank you, appreciate for what you do. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. Thank you, Aidan. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks so much. >> Okay, let's kick off season three, episode one. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (light airy music)

(light upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's day long coverage of Women in Data Science 2023. Live from Stanford University, I'm Lisa Martin. We've had some amazing conversations today with my wonderful co-host, as you've seen. Tracy Zhang joins me next for a very interesting and inspiring conversation. I know we've been bringing them to you, we're bringing you another one here. Dr. Irene Dankwa-Mullan joins us, the Chief Medical Officer at Marti Health, and a speaker at WIDS. Welcome, Irene, it's great to have you. >> Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity. >> So you have an MD and a Master of Public Health. Covid must have been an interesting time for you, with an MPH? >> Very much so. >> Yeah, talk a little bit about you, your background, and Marti Health? This is interesting. This is a brand new startup. This is a digital health equity startup. >> Yes, yes. So, I'll start with my story a little bit about myself. So I was actually born in Ghana. I finished high school there and came here for college. What would I say? After I finished my undergraduate, I went to medical school at Dartmouth and I always knew I wanted to go into public health as well as medicine. So my medical education was actually five years. I did the MPH and my medical degree, at the same time, I got my MPH from Yale School of Public Health. And after I finished, I trained in internal medicine, Johns Hopkins, and after that I went into public health. I am currently living in Maryland, so I'm in Bethesda, Maryland, and that's where I've been. And really enjoyed public health, community health, combining that aspect of sort of prevention and wellness and also working in making sure that we have community health clinics and safety net clinics. So a great experience there. I also had the privilege, after eight years in public health, I went to the National Institute of Health. >> Oh, wow. >> Where I basically worked in clinical research, basically on minority health and health disparities. So, I was in various leadership roles and helped to advance the science of health equity, working in collaboration with a lot of scientists and researchers at the NIH, really to advance the science. >> Where did your interest in health equity come from? Was there a defining moment when you were younger and you thought "There's a lot of inequities here, we have to do something about this." Where did that interest start? >> That's a great question. I think this influence was basically maybe from my upbringing as well as my family and also what I saw around me in Ghana, a lot of preventable diseases. I always say that my grandfather on my father's side was a great influence, inspired me and influenced my career because he was the only sibling, really, that went to school. And as a result, he was able to earn enough money and built, you know, a hospital. >> Oh wow. >> In their hometown. >> Oh my gosh! >> It started as a 20 bed hospital and now it's a 350 bed hospital. >> Oh, wow, that's amazing! >> In our hometown. And he knew that education was important and vital as well for wellbeing. And so he really inspired, you know, his work inspired me. And I remember in residency I went with a group of residents to this hospital in Ghana just to help over a summer break. So during a summer where we went and helped take care of the sick patients and actually learned, right? What it is like to care for so many patients and- >> Yeah. >> It was really a humbling experience. But that really inspired me. I think also being in this country. And when I came to the U.S. and really saw firsthand how patients are treated differently, based on their background or socioeconomic status. I did see firsthand, you know, that kind of unconscious bias. And, you know, drew me to the field of health disparities research and wanted to learn more and do more and contribute. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I was curious. Just when did the data science aspect tap in? Like when did you decide that, okay, data science is going to be a problem solving tool to like all the problems you just said? >> Yeah, that's a good question. So while I was at the NIH, I spent eight years there, and precision medicine was launched at that time and there was a lot of heightened interest in big data and how big data could help really revolutionize medicine and healthcare. And I got the opportunity to go, you know, there was an opportunity where they were looking for physicians or deputy chief health officer at IBM. And so I went to IBM, Watson Health was being formed as a new business unit, and I was one of the first deputy chief health officers really to lead the data and the science evidence. And that's where I realized, you know, we could really, you know, the technology in healthcare, there's been a lot of data that I think we are not really using or optimizing to make sure that we're taking care of our patients. >> Yeah. >> And so that's how I got into data science and making sure that we are building technologies using the right data to advance health equity. >> Right, so talk a little bit about health equity? We mentioned you're with Marti Health. You've been there for a short time, but Marti Health is also quite new, just a few months old. Digital health equity, talk about what Marti's vision is, what its mission is to really help start dialing down a lot of the disparities that you talked about that you see every day? >> Yeah, so, I've been so privileged. I recently joined Marti Health as their Chief Medical Officer, Chief Health Officer. It's a startup that is actually trying to promote a value-based care, also promote patient-centered care for patients that are experiencing a social disadvantage as a result of their race, ethnicity. And were starting to look at and focused on patients that have sickle cell disease. >> Okay. >> Because we realize that that's a population, you know, we know sickle cell disease is a genetic disorder. It impacts a lot of patients that are from areas that are endemic malaria. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And most of our patients here are African American, and when, you know, they suffer so much stigma and discrimination in the healthcare system and complications from their sickle cell disease. And so what we want to do that we feel like sickle cell is a litmus test for disparities. And we want to make sure that they get in patient-centered care. We want to make sure that we are leveraging data and the research that we've done in sickle cell disease, especially on the continent of Africa. >> Okay. >> And provide, promote better quality care for the patients. >> That's so inspiring. You know, we've heard so many great stories today. Were you able to watch the keynote this morning? >> Yes. >> I loved how it always inspires me. This conference is always, we were talking about this all day, how you walk in the Arrillaga Alumni Center here where this event is held every year, the vibe is powerful, it's positive, it's encouraging. >> Inspiring, yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Inspiring. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's a movement, WIDS is a movement. They've created this community where you feel, I don't know, kind of superhuman. "Why can't I do this? Why not me?" We heard some great stories this morning about data science in terms of applications. You have a great application in terms of health equity. We heard about it in police violence. >> Yes. >> Which is an epidemic in this country for sure, as we know. This happens too often. How can we use data and data science as a facilitator of learning more about that, so that that can stop? I think that's so important for more people to understand all of the broad applications of data science, whether it's police violence or climate change or drug discovery or health inequities. >> Irene: Yeah. >> The potential, I think we're scratching the surface. But the potential is massive. >> Tracy: It is. >> And this is an event that really helps women and underrepresented minorities think, "Why not me? Why can't I get involved in that?" >> Yeah, and I always say we use data to make an make a lot of decisions. And especially in healthcare, we want to be careful about how we are using data because this is impacting the health and outcomes of our patients. And so science evidence is really critical, you know? We want to make sure that data is inclusive and we have quality data. >> Yes. >> And it's transparent. Our clinical trials, I always say are not always diverse and inclusive. And if that's going to form the evidence base or data points then we're doing more harm than good for our patients. And so data science, it's huge. I mean, we need a robust, responsible, trustworthy data science agenda. >> "Trust" you just brought up "trust." >> Yeah. >> I did. >> When we talk about data, we can't not talk about security and privacy and ethics but trust is table stakes. We have to be able to evaluate the data and trust in it. >> Exactly. >> And what it says and the story that can be told from it. So that trust factor is, I think, foundational to data science. >> We all see what happened with Covid, right? I mean, when the pandemic came out- >> Absolutely. >> Everyone wanted information. We wanted data, we wanted data we could trust. There was a lot of hesitancy even with the vaccine. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so public health, I mean, like you said, we had to do a lot of work making sure that the right information from the right data was being translated or conveyed to the communities. And so you are totally right. I mean, data and good information, relevant data is always key. >> Well- >> Is there any- Oh, sorry. >> Go ahead. >> Is there anything Marti Health is doing in like ensuring that you guys get the right data that you can put trust in it? >> Yes, absolutely. And so this is where we are, you know, part of it would be getting data, real world evidence data for patients who are being seen in the healthcare system with sickle cell disease, so that we can personalize the data to those patients and provide them with the right treatment, the right intervention that they need. And so part of it would be doing predictive modeling on some of the data, risk, stratifying risk, who in the sickle cell patient population is at risk of progressing. Or getting, you know, they all often get crisis, vaso-occlusive crisis because the cells, you know, the blood cell sickles and you want to avoid those chest crisis. And so part of what we'll be doing is, you know, using predictive modeling to target those at risk of the disease progressing, so that we can put in preventive measures. It's all about prevention. It's all about making sure that they're not being, you know, going to the hospital or the emergency room where sometimes they end up, you know, in pain and wanting pain medicine. And so. >> Do you see AI as being a critical piece in the transformation of healthcare, especially where inequities are concerned? >> Absolutely, and and when you say AI, I think it's responsible AI. >> Yes. >> And making sure that it's- >> Tracy: That's such a good point. >> Yeah. >> Very. >> With the right data, with relevant data, it's definitely key. I think there is so much data points that healthcare has, you know, in the healthcare space there's fiscal data, biological data, there's environmental data and we are not using it to the full capacity and full potential. >> Tracy: Yeah. >> And I think AI can do that if we do it carefully, and like I said, responsibly. >> That's a key word. You talked about trust, responsibility. Where data science, AI is concerned- >> Yeah. >> It has to be not an afterthought, it has to be intentional. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> And there needs to be a lot of education around it. Most people think, "Oh, AI is just for the technology," you know? >> Yeah, right. >> Goop. >> Yes. >> But I think we're all part, I mean everyone needs to make sure that we are collecting the right amount of data. I mean, I think we all play a part, right? >> We do. >> We do. >> In making sure that we have responsible AI, we have, you know, good data, quality data. And the data sciences is a multi-disciplinary field, I think. >> It is, which is one of the things that's exciting about it is it is multi-disciplinary. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> And so many of the people that we've talked to in data science have these very non-linear paths to get there, and so I think they bring such diversity of thought and backgrounds and experiences and thoughts and voices. That helps train the AI models with data that's more inclusive. >> Irene: Yes. >> Dropping down the volume on the bias that we know is there. To be successful, it has to. >> Definitely, I totally agree. >> What are some of the things, as we wrap up here, that you're looking forward to accomplishing as part of Marti Health? Like, maybe what's on the roadmap that you can share with us for Marti as it approaches the the second half of its first year? >> Yes, it's all about promoting health equity. It's all about, I mean, there's so much, well, I would start with, you know, part of the healthcare transformation is making sure that we are promoting care that's based on value and not volume, care that's based on good health outcomes, quality health outcomes, and not just on, you know, the quantity. And so Marti Health is trying to promote that value-based care. We are envisioning a world in which everyone can live their full life potential. Have the best health outcomes, and provide that patient-centered precision care. >> And we all want that. We all want that. We expect that precision and that personalized experience in our consumer lives, why not in healthcare? Well, thank you, Irene, for joining us on the program today. >> Thank you. >> Talking about what you're doing to really help drive the volume up on health equity, and raise awareness for the fact that there's a lot of inequities in there we have to fix. We have a long way to go. >> We have, yes. >> Lisa: But people like you are making an impact and we appreciate you joining theCUBE today and sharing what you're doing, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you- >> Thank you for having me here. >> Oh, our pleasure. For our guest and Tracy Zhang, this is Lisa Martin from WIDS 2023, the eighth Annual Women in Data Science Conference brought to you by theCUBE. Stick around, our show wrap will be in just a minute. Thanks for watching. (light upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to The Cubes coverage of WIDS 2023 the eighth Annual Women in Data Science Conference which is held at Stanford University. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I'm really excited to be having some great co-hosts today. I've got Hannah Freytag with me, who is a data journalism master student at Stanford. We have yet another inspiring woman in technology to bring to you today. Kelly Hoang joins us, data scientist at Gilead. It's so great to have you, Kelly. >> Hi, thank you for having me today. I'm super excited to be here and share my journey with you guys. >> Let's talk about that journey. You recently got your PhD in information sciences, congratulations. >> Thank you. Yes, I just graduated, I completed my PhD in information sciences from University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. And right now I moved to Bay Area and started my career as a data scientist at Gilead. >> And you're in better climate. Well, we do get snow here. >> Kelly: That's true. >> We proved that the last... And data science can show us all the climate change that's going on here. >> That's true. That's the topic of the data fund this year, right? To understand the changes in the climate. >> Yeah. Talk a little bit about your background. You were mentioning before we went live that you come from a whole family of STEM students. So you had that kind of in your DNA. >> Well, I consider myself maybe I was a lucky case. I did grew up in a family in the STEM environment. My dad actually was a professor in computer science. So I remember when I was at a very young age, I already see like datas, all of these computer science concepts. So grew up to be a data scientist is always something like in my mind. >> You aspired to be. >> Yes. >> I love that. >> So I consider myself in a lucky place in that way. But also, like during this journey to become a data scientist you need to navigate yourself too, right? Like you have this roots, like this foundation but then you still need to kind of like figure out yourself what is it? Is it really the career that you want to pursue? But I'm happy that I'm end up here today and where I am right now. >> Oh, we're happy to have you. >> Yeah. So you' re with Gilead now after you're completing your PhD. And were you always interested in the intersection of data science and health, or is that something you explored throughout your studies? >> Oh, that's an excellent question. So I did have background in computer science but I only really get into biomedical domain when I did my PhD at school. So my research during my PhD was natural language processing, NLP and machine learning and their applications in biomedical domains. And then when I graduated, I got my first job in Gilead Science. Is super, super close and super relevant to what my research at school. And at Gilead, I am working in the advanced analytics department, and our focus is to bring artificial intelligence and machine learning into supporting clinical decision making. And really the ultimate goal is how to use AI to accelerate the precision medicine. So yes, it's something very like... I'm very lucky to get the first job that which is very close to my research at school. >> That's outstanding. You know, when we talk about AI, we can't not talk about ethics, bias. >> Kelly: Right. >> We know there's (crosstalk) Yes. >> Kelly: In healthcare. >> Exactly. Exactly. Equities in healthcare, equities in so many things. Talk a little bit about what excites you about AI, what you're doing at Gilead to really influence... I mean this, we're talking about something that's influencing life and death situations. >> Kelly: Right. >> How are you using AI in a way that is really maximizing the opportunities that AI can bring and maximizing the value in the data, but helping to dial down some of the challenges that come with AI? >> Yep. So as you may know already with the digitalization of medical records, this is nowaday, we have a tremendous opportunities to fulfill the dream of precision medicine. And what I mean by precision medicines, means now the treatments for people can be really tailored to individual patients depending on their own like characteristic or demographic or whatever. And nature language processing and machine learning, and AI in general really play a key role in that innovation, right? Because like there's a vast amount of information of patients and patient journeys or patient treatment is conducted and recorded in text. So that's why our group was established. Actually our department, advanced analytic department in Gilead is pretty new. We established our department last year. >> Oh wow. >> But really our mission is to bring AI into this field because we see the opportunity now. We have a vast amount of data about patient about their treatments, how we can mine these data how we can understand and tailor the treatment to individuals. And give everyone better care. >> I love that you brought up precision medicine. You know, I always think, if I kind of abstract everything, technology, data, connectivity, we have this expectation in our consumer lives. We can get anything we want. Not only can we get anything we want but we expect whoever we're engaging with, whether it's Amazon or Uber or Netflix to know enough about me to get me that precise next step. I don't think about precision medicine but you bring up such a great point. We expect these tailored experiences in our personal lives. Why not expect that in medicine as well? And have a tailored treatment plan based on whatever you have, based on data, your genetics, and being able to use NLP, machine learning and AI to drive that is really exciting. >> Yeah. You recap it very well, but then you also bring up a good point about the challenges to bring AI into this field right? Definitely this is an emerging field, but also very challenging because we talk about human health. We are doing the work that have direct impact to human health. So everything need to be... Whatever model, machine learning model that you are building, developing you need to be precise. It need to be evaluated properly before like using as a product, apply into the real practice. So it's not like recommendation systems for shopping or anything like that. We're talking about our actual health. So yes, it's challenging that way. >> Yeah. With that, you already answered one of the next questions I had because like medical data and health data is very sensitive. And how you at Gilead, you know, try to protect this data to protect like the human beings, you know, who are the data in the end. >> The security aspect is critical. You bring up a great point about sensitive data. We think of healthcare as sensitive data. Or PII if you're doing a bank transaction. We have to be so careful with that. Where is security, data security, in your everyday work practices within data science? Is it... I imagine it's a fundamental piece. >> Yes, for sure. We at Gilead, for sure, in data science organization we have like intensive trainings for employees about data privacy and security, how you use the data. But then also at the same time, when we work directly with dataset, it's not that we have like direct information about patient at like very granular level. Everything is need to be kind of like anonymized at some points to protect patient privacy. So we do have rules, policies to follow to put that in place in our organization. >> Very much needed. So some of the conversations we heard, were you able to hear the keynote this morning? >> Yes. I did. I attended. Like I listened to all of them. >> Isn't it fantastic? >> Yes, yes. Especially hearing these women from different backgrounds, at different level of their professional life, sharing their journeys. It's really inspiring. >> And Hannah, and I've been talking about, a lot of those journeys look like this. >> I know >> You just kind of go... It's very... Yours is linear, but you're kind of the exception. >> Yeah, this is why I consider my case as I was lucky to grow up in STEM environment. But then again, back to my point at the beginning, sometimes you need to navigate yourself too. Like I did mention about, I did my pa... Sorry, my bachelor degree in Vietnam, in STEM and in computer science. And that time, there's only five girls in a class of 100 students. So I was not the smartest person in the room. And I kept my minority in that areas, right? So at some point I asked myself like, "Huh, I don't know. Is this really my careers." It seems that others, like male people or students, they did better than me. But then you kind of like, I always have this passion of datas. So you just like navigate yourself, keep pushing yourself over those journey. And like being where I am right now. >> And look what you've accomplished. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. That's very inspiring. And yeah, you mentioned how you were in the classroom and you were only one of the few women in the room. And what inspired or motivated you to keep going, even though sometimes you were at these points where you're like, "Okay, is this the right thing?" "Is this the right thing for me?" What motivated you to keep going? >> Well, I think personally for me, as a data scientist or for woman working in data science in general, I always try to find a good story from data. Like it's not, when you have a data set, well it's important for you to come up with methodologies, what are you going to do with the dataset? But I think it's even more important to kind of like getting the context of the dataset. Like think about it like what is the story behind this dataset? What is the thing that you can get out of it and what is the meaning behind? How can we use it to help use it in a useful way. To have in some certain use case. So I always have that like curiosity and encouragement in myself. Like every time someone handed me a data set, I always think about that. So it's helped me to like build up this kind of like passion for me. And then yeah. And then become a data scientist. >> So you had that internal drive. I think it's in your DNA as well. When you were one of five. You were 5% women in your computer science undergrad in Vietnam. Yet as Hannah was asking you, you found a lot of motivation from within. You embrace that, which is so key. When we look at some of the statistics, speaking of data, of women in technical roles. We've seen it hover around 25% the last few years, probably five to 10. I was reading some data from anitab.org over the weekend, and it shows that it's now, in 2022, the number of women in technical roles rose slightly, but it rose, 27.6%. So we're seeing the needle move slowly. But one of the challenges that still remains is attrition. Women who are leaving the role. You've got your PhD. You have a 10 month old, you've got more than one child. What would you advise to women who might be at that crossroads of not knowing should I continue my career in climbing the ladder, or do I just go be with my family or do something else? What's your advice to them in terms of staying the path? >> I think it's really down to that you need to follow your passion. Like in any kind of job, not only like in data science right? If you want to be a baker, or you want to be a chef, or you want to be a software engineer. It's really like you need to ask yourself is it something that you're really passionate about? Because if you really passionate about something, regardless how difficult it is, like regardless like you have so many kids to take care of, you have the whole family to take care of. You have this and that. You still can find your time to spend on it. So it's really like let yourself drive your own passion. Drive the way where you leading to. I guess that's my advice. >> Kind of like following your own North Star, right? Is what you're suggesting. >> Yeah. >> What role have mentors played in your career path, to where you are now? Have you had mentors on the way or people who inspired you? >> Well, I did. I certainly met quite a lot of women who inspired me during my journey. But right now, at this moment, one person, particular person that I just popped into my mind is my current manager. She's also data scientist. She's originally from Caribbean and then came to the US, did her PhDs too, and now led a group, all women. So believe it or not, I am in a group of all women working in data science. So she's really like someone inspire me a lot, like someone I look up to in this career. >> I love that. You went from being one of five females in a class of 100, to now having a PhD in information sciences, and being on an all female data science team. That's pretty cool. >> It's great. Yeah, it's great. And then you see how fascinating that, how things shift right? And now today we are here in a conference that all are women in data science. >> Yeah. >> It's extraordinary. >> So this year we're fortunate to have WIDS coincide this year with the actual International Women's Day, March 8th which is so exciting. Which is always around this time of year, but it's great to have it on the day. The theme of this International Women's Day this year is embrace equity. When you think of that theme, and your career path, and what you're doing now, and who inspires you, how can companies like Gilead benefit from embracing equity? What are your thoughts on that as a theme? >> So I feel like I'm very lucky to get my first job at Gilead. Not only because the work that we are doing here very close to my research at school, but also because of the working environment at Gilead. Inclusion actually is one of the five core values of Gilead. >> Nice. >> So by that, we means we try to create and creating a working environment that all of the differences are valued. Like regardless your background, your gender. So at Gilead, we have women at Gilead which is a global network of female employees, that help us to strengthen our inclusion culture, and also to influence our voices into the company cultural company policy and practice. So yeah, I'm very lucky to work in the environment nowadays. >> It's impressive to not only hear that you're on an all female data science team, but what Gilead is doing and the actions they're taking. It's one thing, we've talked about this Hannah, for companies, and regardless of industry, to say we're going to have 50% women in our workforce by 2030, 2035, 2040. It's a whole other ballgame for companies like Gilead to actually be putting pen to paper. To actually be creating a strategy that they're executing on. That's awesome. And it must feel good to be a part of a company who's really adapting its culture to be more inclusive, because there's so much value that comes from inclusivity, thought diversity, that ultimately will help Gilead produce better products and services. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Actually this here is the first year Gilead is a sponsor of the WIDS Conference. And we are so excited to establish this relationship, and looking forward to like having more collaboration with WIDS in the future. >> Excellent. Kelly we've had such a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you for sharing your linear path. You are definitely a unicorn. We appreciate your insights and your advice to those who might be navigating similar situations. Thank you for being on theCUBE today. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Oh, it was our pleasure. For our guests, and Hannah Freytag this is Lisa Martin from theCUBE. Coming to you from WIDS 2023, the eighth annual conference. Stick around. Our final guest joins us in just a minute.

(energetic music) >> Everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of WiDS 2023. This is the eighth annual Women in Data Science Conference. As you know, WiDS is not just a conference or an event, it's a movement. This is going to include over 100,000 people in the next year WiDS 2023 in 200-plus countries. It is such a powerful movement. If you've had a chance to be part of the Livestream or even be here in person with us at Stanford University, you know what I'm talking about. This is Lisa Martin. I have had the pleasure all day of working with two fantastic graduate students in Stanford's Data Journalism Master's Program. Hannah Freitag has been here. Tracy Zhang, ladies, it's been such a pleasure working with you today. >> Same wise. >> I want to ask you both what are, as we wrap the day, I'm so inspired, I feel like I could go build an airplane. >> Exactly. >> Probably can't. But WiDS is just the inspiration that comes from this event. When you walk in the front door, you can feel it. >> Mm-hmm. >> Tracy, talk a little bit about what some of the things are that you heard today that really inspired you. >> I think one of the keyword that's like in my mind right now is like finding a mentor. >> Yeah. >> And I think, like if I leave this conference if I leave the talks, the conversations with one thing is that I'm very positive that if I want to switch, say someday, from Journalism to being a Data Analyst, to being like in Data Science, I'm sure that there are great role models for me to look up to, and I'm sure there are like mentors who can guide me through the way. So, like that, I feel reassured for some reason. >> It's a good feeling, isn't it? What do you, Hannah, what about you? What's your takeaway so far of the day? >> Yeah, one of my key takeaways is that anything's possible. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, if you have your vision, you have the role model, someone you look up to, and even if you have like a different background, not in Data Science, Data Engineering, or Computer Science but you're like, "Wow, this is really inspiring. I would love to do that." As long as you love it, you're passionate about it, and you are willing to, you know, take this path even though it won't be easy. >> Yeah. >> Then you can achieve it, and as you said, Tracy, it's important to have mentors on the way there. >> Exactly. >> But as long as you speak up, you know, you raise your voice, you ask questions, and you're curious, you can make it. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's one of my key takeaways, and I was just so inspiring to hear like all these women speaking on stage, and also here in our conversations and learning about their, you know, career path and what they learned on their way. >> Yeah, you bring up curiosity, and I think that is such an important skill. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, you could think of Data Science and think about all the hard skills that you need. >> Mm, like coding. >> But as some of our guests said today, you don't have to be a statistician or an engineer, or a developer to get into this. Data Science applies to every facet of every part of the world. >> Mm-hmm. >> Finances, marketing, retail, manufacturing, healthcare, you name it, Data Science has the power and the potential to unlock massive achievements. >> Exactly. >> It's like we're scratching the surface. >> Yeah. >> But that curiosity, I think, is a great skill to bring to anything that you do. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think we... For the female leaders that we're on stage, and that we had a chance to talk to on theCUBE today, I think they all probably had that I think as a common denominator. >> Exactly. >> That curious mindset, and also something that I think as hard is the courage to raise your hand. I like this, I'm interested in this. I don't see anybody that looks like me. >> But that doesn't mean I shouldn't do it. >> Exactly. >> Exactly, in addition to the curiosity that all the women, you know, bring to the table is that, in addition to that, being optimistic, and even though we don't see gender equality or like general equality in companies yet, we make progress and we're optimistic about it, and we're not like negative and complaining the whole time. But you know, this positive attitude towards a trend that is going in the right direction, and even though there's still a lot to be done- >> Exactly. >> We're moving it that way. >> Right. >> Being optimistic about this. >> Yeah, exactly, like even if it means that it's hard. Even if it means you need to be your own role model it's still like worth a try. And I think they, like all of the great women speakers, all the female leaders, they all have that in them, like they have the courage to like raise their hand and be like, "I want to do this, and I'm going to make it." And they're role models right now, so- >> Absolutely, they have drive. >> They do. >> Right. They have that ambition to take something that's challenging and complicated, and help abstract end users from that. Like we were talking to Intuit. I use Intuit in my small business for financial management, and she was talking about how they can from a machine learning standpoint, pull all this data off of documents that you upload and make that, abstract that, all that complexity from the end user, make something that's painful taxes. >> Mm-hmm. >> Maybe slightly less painful. It's still painful when you have to go, "Do I have to write you a check again?" >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Okay. >> But talking about just all the different applications of Data Science in the world, I found that to be very inspiring and really eye-opening. >> Definitely. >> I hadn't thought about, you know, we talk about climate change all the time, especially here in California, but I never thought about Data Science as a facilitator of the experts being able to make sense of what's going on historically and in real-time, or the application of Data Science in police violence. We see far too many cases of police violence on the news. It's an epidemic that's a horrible problem. Data Science can be applied to that to help us learn from that, and hopefully, start moving the needle in the right direction. >> Absolutely. >> Exactly. >> And especially like one sentence from Guitry from the very beginnings I still have in my mind is then when she said that arguments, no, that data beats arguments. >> Yes. >> In a conversation that if you be like, okay, I have this data set and it can actually show you this or that, it's much more powerful than just like being, okay, this is my position or opinion on this. And I think in a world where increasing like misinformation, and sometimes, censorship as we heard in one of the talks, it's so important to have like data, reliable data, but also acknowledge, and we talked about it with one of our interviewees that there's spices in data and we also need to be aware of this, and how to, you know, move this forward and use Data Science for social good. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah, for social good. >> Yeah, definitely, I think they like data, and the question about, or like the problem-solving part about like the social issues, or like some just questions, they definitely go hand-in-hand. Like either of them standing alone won't be anything that's going to be having an impact, but combining them together, you have a data set that illustrate a point or like solves the problem. I think, yeah, that's definitely like where Data Set Science is headed to, and I'm glad to see all these great women like making their impact and combining those two aspects together. >> It was interesting in the keynote this morning. We were all there when Margot Gerritsen who's one of the founders of WiDS, and Margot's been on the program before and she's a huge supporter of what we do and vice versa. She asked the non-women in the room, "Those who don't identify as women, stand up," and there was a handful of men, and she said, "That's what it's like to be a female in technology." >> Oh, my God. >> And I thought that vision give me goosebumps. >> Powerful. (laughs) >> Very powerful. But she's right, and one of the things I think that thematically another common denominator that I think we heard, I want to get your opinions as well from our conversations today, is the importance of community. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, I was mentioning this stuff from AnitaB.org that showed that in 2022, the percentage of females and technical roles is 27.6%. It's a little bit of an increase. It's been hovering around 25% for a while. But one of the things that's still a problem is attrition. It doubled last year. >> Right. >> And I was asking some of the guests, and we've all done that today, "How would you advise companies to start moving the needle down on attrition?" >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the common theme was network, community. >> Exactly. >> It takes a village like this. >> Mm-hmm. >> So you can see what you can be to help start moving that needle and that's, I think, what underscores the value of what WiDS delivers, and what we're able to showcase on theCUBE. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I think it's very important to like if you're like a woman in tech to be able to know that there's someone for you, that there's a whole community you can rely on, and that like you are, you have the same mindset, you're working towards the same goal. And it's just reassuring and like it feels very nice and warm to have all these women for you. >> Lisa: It's definitely a warm fuzzy, isn't it? >> Yeah, and both the community within the workplace but also outside, like a network of family and friends who support you to- >> Yes. >> To pursue your career goals. I think that was also a common theme we heard that it's, yeah, necessary to both have, you know your community within your company or organization you're working but also outside. >> Definitely, I think that's also like how, why, the reason why we feel like this in like at WiDS, like I think we all feel very positive right now. So, yeah, I think that's like the power of the connection and the community, yeah. >> And the nice thing is this is like I said, WiDS is a movement. >> Yes. >> This is global. >> Mm-hmm. >> We've had some WiDS ambassadors on the program who started WiDS and Tel Aviv, for example, in their small communities. Or in Singapore and Mumbai that are bringing it here and becoming more of a visible part of the community. >> Tracy: Right. >> I loved seeing all the young faces when we walked in the keynote this morning. You know, we come here from a journalistic perspective. You guys are Journalism students. But seeing all the potential in the faces in that room just seeing, and hearing stories, and starting to make tangible connections between Facebook and data, and the end user and the perspectives, and the privacy and the responsibility of AI is all... They're all positive messages that need to be reinforced, and we need to have more platforms like this to be able to not just raise awareness, but sustain it. >> Exactly. >> Right. It's about the long-term, it's about how do we dial down that attrition, what can we do? What can we do? How can we help? >> Mm-hmm. >> Both awareness, but also giving women like a place where they can connect, you know, also outside of conferences. Okay, how do we make this like a long-term thing? So, I think WiDS is a great way to, you know, encourage this connectivity and these women teaming up. >> Yeah, (chuckles) girls help girls. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> It's true. There's a lot of organizations out there, girls who Code, Girls Inc., et cetera, that are all aimed at helping women kind of find their, I think, find their voice. >> Exactly. >> And find that curiosity. >> Yeah. Unlock that somewhere back there. Get some courage- >> Mm-hmm. >> To raise your hand and say, "I think I want to do this," or "I have a question. You explained something and I didn't understand it." Like, that's the advice I would always give to my younger self is never be afraid to raise your hand in a meeting. >> Mm-hmm. >> I guarantee you half the people weren't listening or, and the other half may not have understood what was being talked about. >> Exactly. >> So, raise your hand, there goes Margot Gerritsen, the founder of WiDS, hey, Margot. >> Hi. >> Keep alumni as you know, raise your hand, ask the question, there's no question that's stupid. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I promise you, if you just take that chance once it will open up so many doors, you won't even know which door to go in because there's so many that are opening. >> And if you have a question, there's at least one more person in the room who has the exact same question. >> Exact same question. >> Yeah, we'll definitely keep that in mind as students- >> Well, I'm curious how Data Journalism, what you heard today, Tracy, we'll start with you, and then, Hannah, to you. >> Mm-hmm. How has it influenced how you approach data-driven, and storytelling? Has it inspired you? I imagine it has, or has it given you any new ideas for, as you round out your Master's Program in the next few months? >> I think like one keyword that I found really helpful from like all the conversations today, was problem-solving. >> Yeah. >> Because I think, like we talked a lot about in our program about how to put a face on data sets. How to put a face, put a name on a story that's like coming from like big data, a lot of numbers but you need to like narrow it down to like one person or one anecdote that represents a bigger problem. And I think essentially that's problem-solving. That's like there is a community, there is like say maybe even just one person who has, well, some problem about something, and then we're using data. We're, by giving them a voice, by portraying them in news and like representing them in the media, we're solving this problem somehow. We're at least trying to solve this problem, trying to make some impact. And I think that's like what Data Science is about, is problem-solving, and, yeah, I think I heard a lot from today's conversation, also today's speakers. So, yeah, I think that's like something we should also think about as Journalists when we do pitches or like what kind of problem are we solving? >> I love that. >> Or like kind of what community are we trying to make an impact in? >> Yes. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I think one of the main learnings for me that I want to apply like to my career in Data Journalism is that I don't shy away from complexity because like Data Science is oftentimes very complex. >> Complex. >> And also data, you're using for your stories is complex. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, how can we, on the one hand, reduce complexity in a way that we make it accessible for broader audience? 'Cause, we don't want to be this like tech bubble talking in data jargon, we want to, you know, make it accessible for a broader audience. >> Yeah. >> I think that's like my purpose as a Data Journalist. But at the same time, don't reduce complexity when it's needed, you know, and be open to dive into new topics, and data sets and circling back to this of like raising your hand and asking questions if you don't understand like a certain part. >> Yeah. >> So, that's definitely a main learning from this conference. >> Definitely. >> That like, people are willing to talk to you and explain complex topics, and this will definitely facilitate your work as a Data Journalist. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, that inspired me. >> Well, I can't wait to see where you guys go from here. I've loved co-hosting with you today, thank you. >> Thank you. >> For joining me at our conference. >> Wasn't it fun? >> Thank you. >> It's a great event. It's, we, I think we've all been very inspired and I'm going to leave here probably floating above the ground a few inches, high on the inspiration of what this community can deliver, isn't that great? >> It feels great, I don't know, I just feel great. >> Me too. (laughs) >> So much good energy, positive energy, we love it. >> Yeah, so we want to thank all the organizers of WiDS, Judy Logan, Margot Gerritsen in particular. We also want to thank John Furrier who is here. And if you know Johnny, know he gets FOMO when he is not hosting. But John and Dave Vellante are such great supporters of women in technology, women in technical roles. We wouldn't be here without them. So, shout out to my bosses. Thank you for giving me the keys to theCube at this event. I know it's painful sometimes, but we hope that we brought you great stories all day. We hope we inspired you with the females and the one male that we had on the program today in terms of raise your hand, ask a question, be curious, don't be afraid to pursue what you're interested in. That's my soapbox moment for now. So, for my co-host, I'm Lisa Martin, we want to thank you so much for watching our program today. You can watch all of this on-demand on thecube.net. You'll find write-ups on siliconeangle.com, and, of course, YouTube. Thanks, everyone, stay safe and we'll see you next time. (energetic music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Women in Data Science 2023 live from Stanford University. This is Lisa Martin. My co-host is Tracy Yuan. We're excited to be having great conversations all day but you know, 'cause you've been watching. We've been interviewing some very inspiring women and some men as well, talking about all of the amazing applications of data science. You're not going to want to miss this next conversation. Our guest is Gabriela de Queiroz, Principal Cloud Advocate Manager of Microsoft. Welcome, Gabriela. We're excited to have you. >> Thank you very much. I'm so excited to be talking to you. >> Yeah, you're on theCUBE. >> Yeah, finally. (Lisa laughing) Like a dream come true. (laughs) >> I know and we love that. We're so thrilled to have you. So you have a ton of experience in the data space. I was doing some research on you. You've worked in software, financial advertisement, health. Talk to us a little bit about you. What's your background in? >> So I was trained in statistics. So I'm a statistician and then I worked in epidemiology. I worked with air pollution and public health. So I was a researcher before moving into the industry. So as I was talking today, the weekly paths, it's exactly who I am. I went back and forth and back and forth and stopped and tried something else until I figured out that I want to do data science and that I want to do different things because with data science we can... The beauty of data science is that you can move across domains. So I worked in healthcare, financial, and then different technology companies. >> Well the nice thing, one of the exciting things that data science, that I geek out about and Tracy knows 'cause we've been talking about this all day, it's just all the different, to your point, diverse, pun intended, applications of data science. You know, this morning we were talking about, we had the VP of data science from Meta as a keynote. She came to theCUBE talking and really kind of explaining from a content perspective, from a monetization perspective, and of course so many people in the world are users of Facebook. It makes it tangible. But we also heard today conversations about the applications of data science in police violence, in climate change. We're in California, we're expecting a massive rainstorm and we don't know what to do when it rains or snows. But climate change is real. Everyone's talking about it, and there's data science at its foundation. That's one of the things that I love. But you also have a lot of experience building diverse teams. Talk a little bit about that. You've created some very sophisticated data science solutions. Talk about your recommendation to others to build diverse teams. What's in it for them? And maybe share some data science project or two that you really found inspirational. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I do love building teams. Every time I'm given the task of building teams, I feel the luckiest person in the world because you have the option to pick like different backgrounds and all the diverse set of like people that you can find. I don't think it's easy, like people say, yeah, it's very hard. You have to be intentional. You have to go from the very first part when you are writing the job description through the interview process. So you have to be very intentional in every step. And you have to think through when you are doing that. And I love, like my last team, we had like 10 people and we were so diverse. Like just talking about languages. We had like 15 languages inside a team. So how beautiful it is. Like all different backgrounds, like myself as a statistician, but we had people from engineering background, biology, languages, and so on. So it's, yeah, like every time thinking about building a team, if you wanted your team to be diverse, you need to be intentional. >> I'm so glad you brought up that intention point because that is the fundamental requirement really is to build it with intention. >> Exactly, and I love to hear like how there's different languages. So like I'm assuming, or like different backgrounds, I'm assuming everybody just zig zags their way into the team and now you're all women in data science and I think that's so precious. >> Exactly. And not only woman, right. >> Tracy: Not only woman, you're right. >> The team was diverse not only in terms of like gender, but like background, ethnicity, and spoken languages, and language that they use to program and backgrounds. Like as I mentioned, not everybody did the statistics in school or computer science. And it was like one of my best teams was when we had this combination also like things that I'm good at the other person is not as good and we have this knowledge sharing all the time. Every day I would feel like I'm learning something. In a small talk or if I was reviewing something, there was always something new because of like the richness of the diverse set of people that were in your team. >> Well what you've done is so impressive, because not only have you been intentional with it, but you sound like the hallmark of a great leader of someone who hires and builds teams to fill gaps. They don't have to know less than I do for me to be the leader. They have to have different skills, different areas of expertise. That is really, honestly Gabriela, that's the hallmark of a great leader. And that's not easy to come by. So tell me, who were some of your mentors and sponsors along the way that maybe influenced you in that direction? Or is that just who you are? >> That's a great question. And I joke that I want to be the role model that I never had, right. So growing up, I didn't have anyone that I could see other than my mom probably or my sister. But there was no one that I could see, I want to become that person one day. And once I was tracing my path, I started to see people looking at me and like, you inspire me so much, and I'm like, oh wow, this is amazing and I want to do do this over and over and over again. So I want to be that person to inspire others. And no matter, like I'll be like a VP, CEO, whoever, you know, I want to be, I want to keep inspiring people because that's so valuable. >> Lisa: Oh, that's huge. >> And I feel like when we grow professionally and then go to the next level, we sometimes we lose that, you know, thing that's essential. And I think also like, it's part of who I am as I was building and all my experiences as I was going through, I became what I mentioned is unique person that I think we all are unique somehow. >> You're a rockstar. Isn't she a rockstar? >> You dropping quotes out. >> I'm loving this. I'm like, I've inspired Gabriela. (Gabriela laughing) >> Oh my God. But yeah, 'cause we were asking our other guests about the same question, like, who are your role models? And then we're talking about how like it's very important for women to see that there is a representation, that there is someone they look up to and they want to be. And so that like, it motivates them to stay in this field and to start in this field to begin with. So yeah, I think like you are definitely filling a void and for all these women who dream to be in data science. And I think that's just amazing. >> And you're a founder too. In 2012, you founded R Ladies. Talk a little bit about that. This is present in more than 200 cities in 55 plus countries. Talk about R Ladies and maybe the catalyst to launch it. >> Yes, so you always start, so I'm from Brazil, I always talk about this because it's such, again, I grew up over there. So I was there my whole life and then I moved to here, Silicon Valley. And when I moved to San Francisco, like the doors opened. So many things happening in the city. That was back in 2012. Data science was exploding. And I found out something about Meetup.com, it's a website that you can join and go in all these events. And I was going to this event and I joke that it was kind of like going to the Disneyland, where you don't know if I should go that direction or the other direction. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And I was like, should I go and learn about data visualization? Should I go and learn about SQL or should I go and learn about Hadoop, right? So I would go every day to those meetups. And I was a student back then, so you know, the budget was very restricted as a student. So we don't have much to spend. And then they would serve dinner and you would learn for free. And then I got to a point where I was like, hey, they are doing all of this as a volunteer. Like they are running this meetup and events for free. And I felt like it's a cycle. I need to do something, right. I'm taking all this in. I'm having this huge opportunity to be here. I want to give back. So that's what how everything started. I was like, no, I have to think about something. I need to think about something that I can give back. And I was using R back then and I'm like how about I do something with R. I love R, I'm so passionate about R, what about if I create a community around R but not a regular community, because by going to this events, I felt that as a Latina and as a woman, I was always in the corner and I was not being able to participate and to, you know, be myself and to network and ask questions. I would be in the corner. So I said to myself, what about if I do something where everybody feel included, where everybody can participate, can share, can ask questions without judgment? So that's how R ladies all came together. >> That's awesome. >> Talk about intentions, like you have to, you had that go in mind, but yeah, I wanted to dive a little bit into R. So could you please talk more about where did the passion for R come from, and like how did the special connection between you and R the language, like born, how did that come from? >> It was not a love at first sight. >> No. >> Not at all. Not at all. Because that was back in Brazil. So all the documentation were in English, all the tutorials, only two. We had like very few tutorials. It was not like nowadays that we have so many tutorials and courses. There were like two tutorials, other documentation in English. So it's was hard for me like as someone that didn't know much English to go through the language and then to learn to program was not easy task. But then as I was going through the language and learning and reading books and finding the people behind the language, I don't know how I felt in love. And then when I came to to San Francisco, I saw some of like the main contributors who are speaking in person and I'm like, wow, they are like humans. I don't know, it was like, I have no idea why I had this love. But I think the the people and then the community was the thing that kept me with the R language. >> Yeah, the community factors is so important. And it's so, at WIDS it's so palpable. I mean I literally walk in the door, every WIDS I've done, I think I've been doing them for theCUBE since 2017. theCUBE has been here since the beginning in 2015 with our co-founders. But you walk in, you get this sense of belonging. And this sense of I can do anything, why not? Why not me? Look at her up there, and now look at you speaking in the technical talk today on theCUBE. So inspiring. One of the things that I always think is you can't be what you can't see. We need to be able to see more people that look like you and sound like you and like me and like you as well. And WIDS gives us that opportunity, which is fantastic, but it's also helping to move the needle, really. And I was looking at some of the Anitab.org stats just yesterday about 2022. And they're showing, you know, the percentage of females in technical roles has been hovering around 25% for a while. It's a little higher now. I think it's 27.6 according to any to Anitab. We're seeing more women hired in roles. But what are the challenges, and I would love to get your advice on this, for those that might be in this situation is attrition, women who are leaving roles. What would your advice be to a woman who might be trying to navigate family and work and career ladder to stay in that role and keep pushing forward? >> I'll go back to the community. If you don't have a community around you, it's so hard to navigate. >> That's a great point. >> You are lonely. There is no one that you can bounce ideas off, that you can share what you are feeling or like that you can learn as well. So sometimes you feel like you are the only person that is going through that problem or like, you maybe have a family or you are planning to have a family and you have to make a decision. But you've never seen anyone going through this. So when you have a community, you see people like you, right. So that's where we were saying about having different people and people like you so they can share as well. And you feel like, oh yeah, so they went through this, they succeed. I can also go through this and succeed. So I think the attrition problem is still big problem. And I'm sure will be worse now with everything that is happening in Tech with layoffs. >> Yes and the great resignation. >> Yeah. >> We are going back, you know, a few steps, like a lot of like advancements that we did. I feel like we are going back unfortunately, but I always tell this, make sure that you have a community. Make sure that you have a mentor. Make sure that you have someone or some people, not only one mentor, different mentors, that can support you through this trajectory. Because it's not easy. But there are a lot of us out there. >> There really are. And that's a great point. I love everything about the community. It's all about that network effect and feeling like you belong- >> That's all WIDS is about. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Like coming over here, it's like seeing the old friends again. It's like I'm so glad that I'm coming because I'm all my old friends that I only see like maybe once a year. >> Tracy: Reunion. >> Yeah, exactly. And I feel like that our tank get, you know- >> Lisa: Replenished. >> Exactly. For the rest of the year. >> Yes. >> Oh, that's precious. >> I love that. >> I agree with that. I think one of the things that when I say, you know, you can't see, I think, well, how many females in technology would I be able to recognize? And of course you can be female technology working in the healthcare sector or working in finance or manufacturing, but, you know, we need to be able to have more that we can see and identify. And one of the things that I recently found out, I was telling Tracy this earlier that I geeked out about was finding out that the CTO of Open AI, ChatGPT, is a female. I'm like, (gasps) why aren't we talking about this more? She was profiled on Fast Company. I've seen a few pieces on her, Mira Murati. But we're hearing so much about ChatJTP being... ChatGPT, I always get that wrong, about being like, likening it to the launch of the iPhone, which revolutionized mobile and connectivity. And here we have a female in the technical role. Let's put her on a pedestal because that is hugely inspiring. >> Exactly, like let's bring everybody to the front. >> Yes. >> Right. >> And let's have them talk to us because like, you didn't know. I didn't know probably about this, right. You didn't know. Like, we don't know about this. It's kind of like we are hidden. We need to give them the spotlight. Every woman to give the spotlight, so they can keep aspiring the new generation. >> Or Susan Wojcicki who ran, how long does she run YouTube? All the YouTube influencers that probably have no idea who are influential for whatever they're doing on YouTube in different social platforms that don't realize, do you realize there was a female behind the helm that for a long time that turned it into what it is today? That's outstanding. Why aren't we talking about this more? >> How about Megan Smith, was the first CTO on the Obama administration. >> That's right. I knew it had to do with Obama. Couldn't remember. Yes. Let's let's find more pedestals. But organizations like WIDS, your involvement as a speaker, showing more people you can be this because you can see it, >> Yeah, exactly. is the right direction that will help hopefully bring us back to some of the pre-pandemic levels, and keep moving forward because there's so much potential with data science that can impact everyone's lives. I always think, you know, we have this expectation that we have our mobile phone and we can get whatever we want wherever we are in the world and whatever time of day it is. And that's all data driven. The regular average person that's not in tech thinks about data as a, well I'm paying for it. What's all these data charges? But it's powering the world. It's powering those experiences that we all want as consumers or in our business lives or we expect to be able to do a transaction, whether it's something in a CRM system or an Uber transaction like that, and have the app respond, maybe even know me a little bit better than I know myself. And that's all data. So I think we're just at the precipice of the massive impact that data science will make in our lives. And luckily we have leaders like you who can help navigate us along this path. >> Thank you. >> What advice for, last question for you is advice for those in the audience who might be nervous or maybe lack a little bit of confidence to go I really like data science, or I really like engineering, but I don't see a lot of me out there. What would you say to them? >> Especially for people who are from like a non-linear track where like going onto that track. >> Yeah, I would say keep going. Keep going. I don't think it's easy. It's not easy. But keep going because the more you go the more, again, you advance and there are opportunities out there. Sometimes it takes a little bit, but just keep going. Keep going and following your dreams, that you get there, right. So again, data science, such a broad field that doesn't require you to come from a specific background. And I think the beauty of data science exactly is this is like the combination, the most successful data science teams are the teams that have all these different backgrounds. So if you think that we as data scientists, we started programming when we were nine, that's not true, right. You can be 30, 40, shifting careers, starting to program right now. It doesn't matter. Like you get there no matter how old you are. And no matter what's your background. >> There's no limit. >> There was no limits. >> I love that, Gabriela, >> Thank so much. for inspiring. I know you inspired me. I'm pretty sure you probably inspired Tracy with your story. And sometimes like what you just said, you have to be your own mentor and that's okay. Because eventually you're going to turn into a mentor for many, many others and sounds like you're already paving that path and we so appreciate it. You are now officially a CUBE alumni. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Yay. We've loved having you. Thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> For our guest and for Tracy's Yuan, this is Lisa Martin. We are live at WIDS 23, the eighth annual Women in Data Science Conference at Stanford. Stick around. Our next guest joins us in just a few minutes. (upbeat music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Hey, friends of theCUBE. It's Lisa Martin live at Stanford University covering the Eighth Annual Women In Data Science. But you've been a Cube fan for a long time. So you know that we've been here since the beginning of WiDS, which is 2015. We always loved to come and cover this event. We learned great things about data science, about women leaders, underrepresented minorities. And this year we have a special component. We've got two grad students from Stanford's Master's program and Data Journalism joining. One of my them is here with me, Hannah Freitag, my co-host. Great to have you. And we are pleased to welcome from Intuit for the first time, Shir Meir Lador Group Manager at Data Science. Shir, it's great to have you. Thank you for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> And I was just secrets girl talking with my boss of theCUBE who informed me that you're in great company. Intuit's Chief Technology Officer, Marianna Tessel is an alumni of theCUBE. She was on at our Supercloud event in January. So welcome back into it. >> Thank you very much. We're happy to be with you. >> Tell us a little bit about what you're doing. You're a data science group manager as I mentioned, but also you've had you've done some cool things I want to share with the audience. You're the co-founder of the PyData Tel Aviv Meetups the co-host of the unsupervised podcast about data science in Israel. You give talks, about machine learning, about data science. Tell us a little bit about your background. Were you always interested in STEM studies from the time you were small? >> So I was always interested in mathematics when I was small, I went to this special program for youth going to university. So I did my test in mathematics earlier and studied in university some courses. And that's when I understood I want to do something in that field. And then when I got to go to university, I went to electrical engineering when I found out about algorithms and how interested it is to be able to find solutions to problems, to difficult problems with math. And this is how I found my way into machine learning. >> Very cool. There's so much, we love talking about machine learning and AI on theCUBE. There's so much potential. Of course, we have to have data. One of the things that I love about WiDS and Hannah and I and our co-host Tracy, have been talking about this all day is the impact of data in everyone's life. If you break it down, I was at Mobile World Congress last week, all about connectivity telecom, and of course we have these expectation that we're going to be connected 24/7 from wherever we are in the world and we can do whatever we want. I can do an Uber transaction, I can watch Netflix, I can do a bank transaction. It all is powered by data. And data science is, some of the great applications of it is what it's being applied to. Things like climate change or police violence or health inequities. Talk about some of the data science projects that you're working on at Intuit. I'm an intuit user myself, but talk to me about some of those things. Give the audience really a feel for what you're doing. >> So if you are a Intuit product user, you probably use TurboTax. >> I do >> In the past. So for those who are not familiar, TurboTax help customers submit their taxes. Basically my group is in charge of getting all the information automatically from your documents, the documents that you upload to TurboTax. We extract that information to accelerate your tax submission to make it less work for our customers. So- >> Thank you. >> Yeah, and this is why I'm so proud to be working at this team because our focus is really to help our customers to simplify all the you know, financial heavy lifting with taxes and also with small businesses. We also do a lot of work in extracting information from small business documents like bill, receipts, different bank statements. Yeah, so this is really exciting for me, the opportunity to work to apply data science and machine learning to solution that actually help people. Yeah >> Yeah, in the past years there have been more and more digital products emerging that needs some sort of data security. And how did your team, or has your team developed in the past years with more and more products or companies offering digital services? >> Yeah, so can you clarify the question again? Sorry. >> Yeah, have you seen that you have more customers? Like has your team expanded in the past years with more digital companies starting that need kind of data security? >> Well, definitely. I think, you know, since I joined Intuit, I joined like five and a half years ago back when I was in Tel Aviv. I recently moved to the Bay Area. So when I joined, there were like a dozens of data scientists and machine learning engineers on Intuit. And now there are a few hundreds. So we've definitely grown with the year and there are so many new places we can apply machine learning to help our customers. So this is amazing, so much we can do with machine learning to get more money in the pocket of our customers and make them do less work. >> I like both of those. More money in my pocket and less work. That's awesome. >> Exactly. >> So keep going Intuit. But one of the things that is so cool is just the the abstraction of the complexity that Intuit's doing. I upload documents or it scans my receipts. I was just in Barcelona last week all these receipts and conversion euros to dollars and it takes that complexity away from the end user who doesn't know all that's going on in the background, but you're making people's lives simpler. Unfortunately, we all have to pay taxes, most of us should. And of course we're in tax season right now. And so it's really cool what you're doing with ML and data science to make fundamental processes to people's lives easier and just a little bit less complicated. >> Definitely. And I think that's what's also really amazing about Intuit it, is how it combines human in the loop as well as AI. Because in some of the tax situation it's very complicated maybe to do it yourself. And then there's an option to work with an expert online that goes on a video with you and helps you do your taxes. And the expert's work is also accelerated by AI because we build tools for those experts to do the work more efficiently. >> And that's what it's all about is you know, using data to be more efficient, to be faster, to be smarter, but also to make complicated processes in our daily lives, in our business lives just a little bit easier. One of the things I've been geeking out about recently is ChatGPT. I was using it yesterday. I was telling everyone I was asking it what's hot in data science and I didn't know would it know what hot is and it did, it gave me trends. But one of the things that I was so, and Hannah knows I've been telling this all day, I was so excited to learn over the weekend that the the CTO of OpenAI is a female. I didn't know that. And I thought why are we not putting her on a pedestal? Because people are likening ChatGPT to like the launch of the iPhone. I mean revolutionary. And here we have what I think is exciting for all of us females, whether you're in tech or not, is another role model. Because really ultimately what WiDS is great at doing is showcasing women in technical roles. Because I always say you can't be what you can't see. We need to be able to see more role models, female role role models, underrepresented minorities of course men, because a lot of my sponsors and mentors are men, but we need more women that we can look up to and see ah, she's doing this, why can't I? Talk to me about how you stay the course in data science. What excites you about the potential, the opportunities based on what you've already accomplished what inspires you to continue and be one of those females that we say oh my God, I could be like Shir. >> I think that what inspires me the most is the endless opportunities that we have. I think we haven't even started tapping into everything that we can do with generative AI, for example. There's so much that can be done to further help you know, people make more money and do less work because there's still so much work that we do that we don't need to. You know, this is with Intuit, but also there are so many other use cases like I heard today you know, with the talk about the police. So that was really exciting how you can apply machine learning and data to actually help people, to help people that been through wrongful things. So I was really moved by that. And I'm also really excited about all the medical applications that we can have with data. >> Yeah, yeah. It's true that data science is so diverse in terms of what fields it can cover but it's equally important to have diverse teams and have like equity and inclusion in your teams. Where is Intuit at promoting women, non-binary minorities in your teams to progress data science? >> Yeah, so I have so much to say on this. >> Good. >> But in my work in Tel Aviv, I had the opportunity to start with Intuit women in data science branch in Tel Aviv. So that's why I'm super excited to be here today for that because basically this is the original conference, but as you know, there are branches all over the world and I got the opportunity to lead the Tel Aviv branch with Israel since 2018. And we've been through already this year it's going to be it's next week, it's going to be the sixth conference. And every year our number of submission to make talk in the conference doubled itself. >> Nice. >> We started with 20 submission, then 50, then 100. This year we have over 200 submissions of females to give talk at the conference. >> Ah, that's fantastic. >> And beyond the fact that there's so much traction, I also feel the great impact it has on the community in Israel because one of the reason we started WiDS was that when I was going to conferences I was seeing so little women on stage in all the technical conferences. You know, kind of the reason why I guess you know, Margaret and team started the WiDS conference. So I saw the same thing in Israel and I was always frustrated. I was organizing PyData Meetups as you mentioned and I was always having such a hard time to get female speakers to talk. I was trying to role model, but that's not enough, you know. We need more. So once we started WiDS and people saw you know, so many examples on the stage and also you know females got opportunity to talk in a place for that. Then it also started spreading and you can see more and more female speakers across other conferences, which are not women in data science. So I think just the fact that Intuits started this conference back in Israel and also in Bangalore and also the support Intuit does for WiDS in Stanford here, it shows how much WiDS values are aligned with our values. Yeah, and I think that to chauffeur that I think we have over 35% females in the data science and machine learning engineering roles, which is pretty amazing I think compared to the industry. >> Way above average. Yeah, absolutely. I was just, we've been talking about some of the AnitaB.org stats from 2022 showing that 'cause usually if we look at the industry to you point, over the last, I don't know, probably five, 10 years we're seeing the number of female technologists around like a quarter, 25% or so. 2022 data from AnitaB.org showed that that number is now 27.6%. So it's very slowly- >> It's very slowly increasing. >> Going in the right direction. >> Too slow. >> And that representation of women technologists increase at every level, except intern, which I thought was really interesting. And I wonder is there a covid relation there? >> I don't know. >> What do we need to do to start opening up the the top of the pipeline, the funnel to go downstream to find kids like you when you were younger and always interested in engineering and things like that. But the good news is that the hiring we've seen improvements, but it sounds like Intuit is way ahead of the curve there with 35% women in data science or technical roles. And what's always nice and refreshing that we've talked, Hannah about this too is seeing companies actually put action into initiatives. It's one thing for a company to say we're going to have you know, 50% females in our organization by 2030. It's a whole other ball game to actually create a strategy, execute on it, and share progress. So kudos to Intuit for what it's doing because that is more companies need to adopt that same sort of philosophy. And that's really cultural. >> Yeah. >> At an organization and culture can be hard to change, but it sounds like you guys kind of have it dialed in. >> I think we definitely do. That's why I really like working and Intuit. And I think that a lot of it is with the role modeling, diversity and inclusion, and by having women leaders. When you see a woman in leadership position, as a woman it makes you want to come work at this place. And as an evidence, when I build the team I started in Israel at Intuit, I have over 50% women in my team. >> Nice. >> Yeah, because when you have a woman in the interviewers panel, it's much easier, it's more inclusive. That's why we always try to have at least you know, one woman and also other minorities represented in our interviews panel. Yeah, and I think that in general it's very important as a leader to kind of know your own biases and trying to have defined standard and rubrics in how you evaluate people to avoid for those biases. So all of that inclusiveness and leadership really helps to get more diversity in your teams. >> It's critical. That thought diversity is so critical, especially if we talk about AI and we're almost out of time, I just wanted to bring up, you brought up a great point about the diversity and equity. With respect to data science and AI, we know in AI there's biases in data. We need to have more inclusivity, more representation to help start shifting that so the biases start to be dialed down and I think a conference like WiDS and it sounds like someone like you and what you've already done so far in the work that you're doing having so many females raise their hands to want to do talks at events is a good situation. It's a good scenario and hopefully it will continue to move the needle on the percentage of females in technical roles. So we thank you Shir for your time sharing with us your story, what you're doing, how Intuit and WiDS are working together. It sounds like there's great alignment there and I think we're at the tip of the iceberg with what we can do with data science and inclusion and equity. So we appreciate all of your insights and your time. >> Thank you very much. >> All right. >> I enjoyed very, very much >> Good. We hope, we aim to please. Thank you for our guests and for Hannah Freitag. This is Lisa Martin coming to you live from Stanford University. This is our coverage of the eighth Annual Women in Data Science Conference. Stick around, next guest will be here in just a minute.