>>We're back with Jess Borgman of Starburst and Richard Jarvis of EVAs health. Okay. We're gonna get into lie. Number two, and that is this an open source based platform cannot give you the performance and control that you can get with a proprietary system. Is that a lie? Justin, the enterprise data warehouse has been pretty dominant and has evolved and matured. Its stack has mature over the years. Why is it not the default platform for data? >>Yeah, well, I think that's become a lie over time. So I, I think, you know, if we go back 10 or 12 years ago with the advent of the first data lake really around Hudu, that probably was true that you couldn't get the performance that you needed to run fast, interactive, SQL queries in a data lake. Now a lot's changed in 10 or 12 years. I remember in the very early days, people would say, you'll, you'll never get performance because you need to be column. You need to store data in a column format. And then, you know, column formats were introduced to, to data lake. You have Parque ORC file in aro that were created to ultimately deliver performance out of that. So, okay. We got, you know, largely over the performance hurdle, you know, more recently people will say, well, you don't have the ability to do updates and deletes like a traditional data warehouse. >>And now we've got the creation of new data formats, again, like iceberg and Delta and hoote that do allow for updates and delete. So I think the data lake has continued to mature. And I remember a quote from, you know, Kurt Monash many years ago where he said, you know, it takes six or seven years to build a functional database. I think that's that's right. And now we've had almost a decade go by. So, you know, these technologies have matured to really deliver very, very close to the same level performance and functionality of, of cloud data warehouses. So I think the, the reality is that's become a lie and now we have large giant hyperscale internet companies that, you know, don't have the traditional data warehouse at all. They do all of their analytics in a data lake. So I think we've, we've proven that it's very much possible today. >>Thank you for that. And so Richard, talk about your perspective as a practitioner in terms of what open brings you versus, I mean, the clothes is it's open as a moving target. I remember Unix used to be open systems and so it's, it is an evolving, you know, spectrum, but, but from your perspective, what does open give you that you can't get from a proprietary system where you are fearful of in a proprietary system? >>I, I suppose for me open buys us the ability to be unsure about the future, because one thing that's always true about technology is it evolves in a, a direction, slightly different to what people expect and what you don't want to end up done is backed itself into a corner that then prevents it from innovating. So if you have chosen the technology and you've stored trillions of records in that technology and suddenly a new way of processing or machine learning comes out, you wanna be able to take advantage your competitive edge might depend upon it. And so I suppose for us, we acknowledge that we don't have perfect vision of what the future might be. And so by backing open storage technologies, we can apply a number of different technologies to the processing of that data. And that gives us the ability to remain relevant, innovate on our data storage. And we have bought our way out of the, any performance concerns because we can use cloud scale infrastructure to scale up and scale down as we need. And so we don't have the concerns that we don't have enough hardware today to process what we want to do, want to achieve. We can just scale up when we need it and scale back down. So open source has really allowed us to maintain the being at the cutting edge. >>So Jess, let me play devil's advocate here a little bit, and I've talked to JAK about this and you know, obviously her vision is there's an open source that, that data mesh is open source, an open source tooling, and it's not a proprietary, you know, you're not gonna buy a data mesh. You're gonna build it with, with open source toolings and, and vendors like you are gonna support it, but come back to sort of today, you can get to market with a proprietary solution faster. I'm gonna make that statement. You tell me if it's a lie and then you can say, okay, we support Apache iceberg. We're gonna support open source tooling, take a company like VMware, not really in the data business, but how, the way they embraced Kubernetes and, and you know, every new open source thing that comes along, they say, we do that too. Why can't proprietary systems do that and be as effective? >>Yeah, well I think at least with the, within the data landscape saying that you can access open data formats like iceberg or, or others is, is a bit dis disingenuous because really what you're selling to your customer is a certain degree of performance, a certain SLA, and you know, those cloud data warehouses that can reach beyond their own proprietary storage drop all the performance that they were able to provide. So it is, it reminds me kind of, of, again, going back 10 or 12 years ago when everybody had a connector to hit and that they thought that was the solution, right? But the reality was, you know, a connector was not the same as running workloads in hit back then. And I think similarly, you know, being able to connect to an external table that lives in an open data format, you know, you're, you're not going to give it the performance that your customers are accustomed to. And at the end of the day, they're always going to be predisposed. They're always going to be incentivized to get that data ingested into the data warehouse, cuz that's where they have control. And you know, the bottom line is the database industry has really been built around vendor lockin. I mean, from the start, how, how many people love Oracle today, but our customers, nonetheless, I think, you know, lockin is, is, is part of this industry. And I think that's really what we're trying to change with open data formats. >>Well, it's interesting remind of when I, you know, I see the, the gas price, the TSR gas price I, I drive up and then I say, oh, that's the cash price credit card. I gotta pay 20 cents more, but okay. But so the, the argument then, so let me, let me come back to you, Justin. So what's wrong with saying, Hey, we support open data formats, but yeah, you're gonna get better performance if you, if you, you keep it into our closed system, are you saying that long term that's gonna come back and bite you cuz you're gonna end up, you mentioned Oracle, you mentioned Teradata. Yeah. That's by, by implication, you're saying that's where snowflake customers are headed. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a movie that, you know, we've all seen before. At least those of us who've been in the industry long enough to, to see this movie play over a couple times. So I do think that's the future. And I think, you know, I loved what Richard said. I actually wrote it down. Cause I thought it was an amazing quote. He said, it buys us the ability to be unsure of the future. That that pretty much says it all the, the future is unknowable and the reality is using open data formats. You remain interoperable with any technology you want to utilize. If you want to use spark to train a machine learning model and you wanna use Starbust to query via sequel, that's totally cool. They can both work off the same exact, you know, data, data sets by contrast, if you're, you know, focused on a proprietary model, then you're kind of locked in again to that model. I think the same applies to data, sharing to data products, to a wide variety of, of aspects of the data landscape that a proprietary approach kind of closes you and, and locks you in. >>So I, I would say this Richard, I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Cause I talked to a lot of Oracle customers, not as many te data customers there, but, but a lot of Oracle customers and they, you know, they'll admit yeah, you know, the Jammin us on price and the license cost, but we do get value out of it. And so my question to you, Richard, is, is do the, let's call it data warehouse systems or the proprietary systems. Are they gonna deliver a greater ROI sooner? And is that in allure of, of that customers, you know, are attracted to, or can open platforms deliver as fast an ROI? >>I think the answer to that is it can depend a bit. It depends on your business's skillset. So we are lucky that we have a number of proprietary teams that work in databases that provide our operational data capability. And we have teams of analytics and big data experts who can work with open data sets and open data formats. And so for those different teams, they can get to an ROI more quickly with different technologies for the business though, we can't do better for our operational data stores than proprietary databases. Today we can back off very tight SLAs to them. We can demonstrate reliability from millions of hours of those databases being run at enterprise scale, but for an analytics workload where increasing our business is growing in that direction, we can't do better than open data formats with cloud-based data mesh type technologies. And so it's not a simple answer. That one will always be the right answer for our business. We definitely have times when proprietary databases provide a capability that we couldn't easily represent or replicate with open technologies. >>Yeah. Richard, stay with you. You mentioned, you know, you know, some things before that, that strike me, you know, the data brick snowflake, you know, thing is always a lot of fun for analysts like me. You've got data bricks coming at it. Richard, you mentioned you have a lot of rockstar, data engineers, data bricks coming at it from a data engineering heritage. You get snowflake coming at it from an analytics heritage. Those two worlds are, are colliding people like PJI Mohan said, you know what? I think it's actually harder to play in the data engineering. So IE, it's easier to for data engineering world to go into the analytics world versus the reverse, but thinking about up and coming engineers and developers preparing for this future of data engineering and data analytics, how, how should they be thinking about the future? What, what's your advice to those young people? >>So I think I'd probably fall back on general programming skill sets. So the advice that I saw years ago was if you have open source technologies, the pythons and Javas on your CV, you command a 20% pay, hike over people who can only do proprietary programming languages. And I think that's true of data technologies as well. And from a business point of view, that makes sense. I'd rather spend the money that I save on proprietary licenses on better engineers, because they can provide more value to the business that can innovate us beyond our competitors. So I think I would my advice to people who are starting here or trying to build teams to capitalize on data assets is begin with open license, free capabilities because they're very cheap to experiment with. And they generate a lot of interest from people who want to join you as a business. And you can make them very successful early, early doors with, with your analytics journey. >>It's interesting. Again, analysts like myself, we do a lot of TCO work and have over the last 20 plus years and in the world of Oracle, you know, normally it's the staff, that's the biggest nut in total cost of ownership, not an Oracle. It's the it's the license cost is by far the biggest component in the, in the blame pie. All right, Justin, help us close out this segment. We've been talking about this sort of data mesh open, closed snowflake data bricks. Where does Starburst sort of as this engine for the data lake data lake house, the data warehouse, it, it fit in this, in this world. >>Yeah. So our view on how the future ultimately unfolds is we think that data lakes will be a natural center of gravity for a lot of the reasons that we described open data formats, lowest total cost of ownership, because you get to choose the cheapest storage available to you. Maybe that's S3 or Azure data lake storage or Google cloud storage, or maybe it's on-prem object storage that you bought at a, at a really good price. So ultimately storing a lot of data in a data lake makes a lot of sense, but I think what makes our perspective unique is we still don't think you're gonna get everything there either. We think that basically centralization of all your data assets is just an impossible endeavor. And so you wanna be able to access data that lives outside of the lake as well. So we kind of think of the lake as maybe the biggest place by volume in terms of how much data you have, but to, to have comprehensive analytics and to truly understand your business and understanding holistically, you need to be able to go access other data sources as well. And so that's the role that we wanna play is to be a single point of access for our customers, provide the right level of fine grained access controls so that the right people have access to the right data and ultimately make it easy to discover and consume via, you know, the creation of data products as well. >>Great. Okay. Thanks guys. Right after this quick break, we're gonna be back to debate whether the cloud data model that we see emerging and the so-called modern data stack is really modern or is it the same wine new bottle when it comes to data architectures, you're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm John fury host of the cube here in Palo Alto, California. We're talking open source. We're talking about the data center. We're talking about cloud scale, bringing that software benefits all to the table, all around the network, the network operating system, and more gotta go a guest here, sir. Rob Capor director of product management, Dell networking, sir. Rob. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you, John. Good to be here. Thanks for inviting me. >>You know, we were talking before we came on camera around how the networking business is changing, why hardware matters, why software's more important. And in all of this shift, that's happening in the transition to fully distributed computing, which Matt, you got the edge, you got the data center, you got the cloud all coming together. One of the common threads in all of this is open source. Okay. Open source software, next generations coming. You're seeing more and more new cool things in open source, but also in parallel with the enterprise. This is a huge kind of flash point to the next gen open source enterprise convergence with, with open source software and the communities and all and all that, all that good stuff. And you're in the middle of it. What's driving this Hmm. Source and the data center. We're seeing the levels of support like we've never seen before and specifically at the network level. >>Awesome. Yeah. So, well, to set the context, let's start by looking at the story of comput solution, right? Uh, in the nineties, the comput infrastructure was vertically integrated. Uh, there were multiple vendors each offering their own operating system, usually a version of hearings, uh, on, on the proprietary hardwares. If I wanted to run a Solas operating system, I had to run that over a Spoor and the applications were written, especially for, for that architecture. So, so this represented multiple challenges back then the customer were locked in growth and innovation developers had to recreate applications for, for different architectures and, and the interoperability was extremely difficult, but with the advent of X 86 architecture and standardized operating systems like like windows and Linux, the stack got disaggregated, which allowed for flexibility, innovation, affordability and finding expand engine. We see a similar trend happening on the networking side now where the traditional networking solutions, uh, are not flexible. >>The switch, the network operating system, the APIs are all provided by the same vendor. So if a feature is, is needed, the user has to either wait for the vendor to deliver it, or is forced to replace then time for structure. But with the of open networking and opensource networking based solutions, we see an evolution that has paved the way for the customers to unlock their data center technologies and innovate. The modern data center is, is no longer centered around protocol sax. It's about agility, flexibility, innovation, network automation, and simplicity. It's about how to make operations more agile, agile, more effective, and, and, you know, bake it into an overall infrastructure today. A large element of, uh, of, of business action behind open networking is that companies are moving towards application centricity and, and a true realization of as a service model. Right? So, so that is where Sonic comes into the picture, right? >>But it's large and diverse community around, around modular containers, architecture born in Microsoft as your environment, Sonic is, is built for automation, telemetry and scale. And the flexibility of this architecture allows you for, you know, in terms of running to applications by providing that high level of redundancy. So, so basically know Sonic kind of check marks to all the requirements of the modern data center from open flexible architectures to cloud economics. And if you have to follow a comput evolution analogy, we believe that, you know, switches is the server now in Sonic is the Linux for networking. >>It's like the Ker of networking. I mean, we'd be and reporting. We've had all the cube conversations where Sonic's been mentioned and people have been saying things like it's taking the networking world by storm. Um, and all, all that with open source kind of ties it and scales it together. Can you take a minute to explain a little bit about what it is? What is Sonic, what does it stand for? Why is it important? What does it do? What's the benefit to the customers? What are they, what what's going on around Sonic take a minute to explain what is Sonic. >>Absolutely. Yeah. So is Sonic stands for software for open talking in the cloud. It's a brain of Microsoft in, in 2016, they announced their contribution of Sonic to the open source community and, and through the networking technology to revolutionary set forward with the yet level of this aggregation by breaking the monolithic nos into multiple containers components. And, and through the use of ization, Sonic provides the, the network managers, the plug and place sensibility, the ability to run third party proprietary or open source application containers and, and perform those in-service updates with zero down time. Sonic is, is primarily designed across four main per principles. First one is the notion of control where, uh, Sonic is an open software organizations are deploying it, working on it. The network managers can decide what features they want to ship on a switch, so that there's less potential for bug and, and tailored for more of the use cases, right? >>Sonic was designed for extensibility for, uh, the developers to come and add new cable, roll those out rapidly on, on a platform. Uh it's it was designed for agility. The ability to take changes, roll those out rapidly, whether it's a bug fix or a new feature coming out, uh, which is significant. And finally Sonic was designed around this notion of open collaboration with such a diverse community around. We have Silicon vendors to ODM providers. It contribute is the more people work on it better and more like the software it becomes. Yeah. I mean, it has evolved considerably and, and since it's inception, it's, it's, uh, the growth is, is nurtured by an increasing set of users, uh, a vibrant open source community. Uh, and then there's a long, uh, trail of, of, you know, falling from, from the non hyperscalers where they like the value propers, you know, technology. And I want to adapt it for their environment. >>Yeah. And of course we love Silicon here at Silicon angle on the cube. Uh, but this is the whole new thing. Silicon advances is still software hardware matters. Dave LAN is doing a big thing called on why hardware matters with our team hardware and software together with open source really is coming back smaller, faster, cheaper. It's really good. So I want to ask you about Sonic, what types of customers mm-hmm <affirmative> would be looking to implement this, is this more of a, a reset in the data center? Is it a cloud scale team? Is it tributed computing? What's the new look of the customer who are implementing the like so, so, >>Well, uh, you know, it has evolved considerably since it's <inaudible> right. It was born into a hyperscale environment and we see a big end happening where, uh, you know, there's a wider appeal that is across non hyperscalers who want to emulate the best practices of the hyperscalers. They, but they want to do it on their own dumps. They want, uh, uh, a feature solution that is tailored for enterprise use cases. And, and, you know, looking at this whole contains architecture, Sonic kinda fits the build well where, you know, providing a Linux, no, that can be managed by the same set of automation management tools. Uh, and you know, these are the same teams, you know, uh, that have, you know, been acclimated world on website. Now with this all tool consolidation and consistent operations across the data center infrastructure, we, we see that Sonic brings a lot of value, uh, to these distributed application use cases, these modern data center environments, where you, you know, you have, you know, customers looking for cloud economics, multi vendor ecosystem, open and flexible architectures. And in fact, you know, uh, you know, we are told by the industry analyst that there's a strong possibility that, you know, during the next three to six years, Sonic is going to become analog as to Linux. Uh, now allowing the enterprises to, to sanitize on this. No, and, and, and, you know, they also predict that, uh, you know, 40% of the organizations that have, uh, you large data centers or 200 plus switches will deploy Sonic in production. And the market is going to be approximately 2.5 billion by, by 25. >>You know, we've Al we've always been riffing about the network layers, always the last area to kind of get the innovation, because it's so important. I mean, right. If you look at the advances of cloud and cloud scale, obviously Amazon did great work and what starts with networking lay what they did kind of with the, in the cloud, but even in the enterprise, it's so locked down, it's so important. Um, and things like policy, these are the concepts that have been moving up the stack. We see that, but also software's moving down the stack, right? So this notion of a network operating system kind of now is in play at the data center level, not just on the server, you're talking about like packets and observability monitoring, you know, more and more and more data coming in. So with data surging, tsunami of data, new, um, agile architectures changing in real time dynamic policy, this is what's happening. What's the role of Dell in all this? You guys got the hardware, um, you got the servers now it's open source, it's got community. What is Dell bringing to the table? What's your role in this development and the evolution of Sonic and, and what do you guys bringing to the table? >>Absolutely. So, so we are now, uh, enterprise Sonic distribution by Dell technologies, a commercial offering for Sonic in June last year. And our vision has been primarily to bridge the cap between hyperscale networking and enterprise networking. Right here we are, we are combining the stents and value proposition of Sonic and Dell technologies where the customers get an innovative, scalable, open source NA, which is hardened supported and backed by industry leader and open networking that has been, that has been our primary play into this where enterprise Sonic by Dell, we, we CU the customers, you know, get support and deployment services. Uh, we work with the customers in building out a roadmap that is, you know, a predictable software and hardware roadmap for them. Uh, we, we provide extended and validated use cases where, uh, you know, they can average, you know, Sonic for their, you know, specific environments, whether it's a cloud environment or the enterprise environment, uh, we've created a partner ecosystem where, uh, you know, with, with certain organizations that allow you to leverage the inherent automation, telemetric capabilities in the NAS, uh, to enhance the usability of the software, we have, uh, created an intuitive CLI framework called manage framework to allow you to better consume Sonic for your environment. >>We offer support for open conflict models and then also answerable playbooks for, for network automation. So, so it's been a journey, uh, you know, we are making the solution ready for enterprise consumption is a, a big fan falling that is happening from the non hyperscaler awards. And, uh, we've made significant in, in, in the community as well. Yeah. 1 million lines plus of code what fixes and, and helping with the documentation. So we are at the forefront of, of so journey. >>So you're saying that you, you're saying Dell for the folks watching you guys are putting the work in you're investing in opensource. >>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we, we are, uh, you know, extending open source to the bottom market, you know, making it enterprise ready, uh, with, with feature enhancements and building a partner ecosystem. Uh, you know, we, we ensure that, you know, it advanced through extensive internal testing and validation for the customers. And then, uh, in order to allow the customers to absorb this new technology in house, uh, you know, we, we provide virtual to MOS. We have, you know, hands on labs for, for customers and channel partners. We, we also help them with, with a lot of documentation and reference architecture so that, you know, it's a knowledge repository across the board that can be leveraged for the modern use cases. So, yeah, so that's been a, it's been a journey with the customers and it's always in evolution where we, you know, get better of it with extended use cases and, and more capabilities on the portfolio. >>You know, I always, I always talk with Michael Dell at the Dell tech world every year. And sometimes we text back and forth. Uh, we kind of grew up together in the industry about the same age. Um, and we joke about the Dell early days of Dell, how supply chain was really part of their advantage. Um, and this is getting a little bit of a throwback, but you look back back then it was a of systems architecture. You have suppliers, you have chips, you have boards, you build PCs, you build servers. And the DNA of Dell, Dell technologies has always been around the system and with open source and tributed computing cloud data center edge, it's a system. And we're hearing words like supply chain in software, right? So when you start to think about Sonic and network operating systems and that kind of, those kinds of systems, when you modernize it, it's still gotta enable things to enable value. So what's the enabling value that Sonic has for the modern era here and comput as new kinds of supply chains emerge, new kinds of partnerships have to evolve. And the environment under the covers is changing too. You got cloud native, you got growth of containers. I think DACA was telling us that the container market there is pushing 20 million developers. I mean, massive cloud native activity and open source growth. This is a system. >>No, absolutely. I mean, uh, you know, the modern world has changed so much from, from, you know, the proprietary infrastructure and stacks. Now, uh, we Dell, you know, becoming, uh, uh, you know, more software focused now because that's a real value, uh, that you bring to the customers. Now, it's all about application centricity. Nobody is talking about out, you know, protocol stacks, or, you know, they, they want simplicity. They want ease of network management. And how do you expose all these capabilities? It's, it's with software, right? Sonic being open software. There's so much happening, uh, in, in the community around it. You know, we provide not bond interfaces that, you know, customers can hook up into their applications and get better at monitoring, get better at you managing that entire CIC CD pipeline in the infrastructure. So I think, you know, soft is, is a core in the heart of, you know, the modern data center infrastructure today. And, you know, we've been, uh, you know, uh, uh, at the forefront of this journey with, with Sonic and, uh, you know, bringing the real choice and flexibility for the customers. >>It's certainly an exciting time if you're in the data center, you're in, in architecture, cloud architecture, urine in data engineering, a new growing field, not just data science data is code. We did a big special on that recently in the cube, but also just overall scale. And so this, these are all new factors in C CXOs are dealing with obviously securities playing a big part of it and the role of data, uh, and also application developers all in the partner ecosystem becomes a really important part of, so I have to ask you, can you expand a little bit more on your comment earlier about the partner ecosystem and the importance of plays mm-hmm, <affirmative> in providing a best in class service because you're relying on others in open source, but you're commercializing Sonic with others. So there's a, there's a ecosystem play here. What's, what's talk more about that and, and the importance of it, >>Right, right. Yes, sir. As I mentioned earlier, right, the modern data center is no longer centered on protocol stack, right? So it's about agility, flexibility, choice, uh, network automation, simplicity, and based on these needs, we've built up, uh, portfolio with, with plethora of options, for, uh, you know, integrations into open source tool chains and, and also building enterprise partnerships for, uh, with, with technologies that matter to the customers. Right? So, uh, the ecosystem partners, uh, are, are, you know, apps are Juniper. Um, Okta, there are crews that offer solutions at simplify network management and monitoring of, of massive complex networks and leverage the, the inherent automation telemetry capabilities in Sonic. It comes to the open source tools. Uh, you know, these, these are tools that, you know, the broader, the, the tier two cloud of this point is the large enterprises also want, you know, based on how they're moving towards an open source based ecosystem. We have, you know, created ible modules for network automation. We have integrated into open source marketing tools like Telegraph or far and Promeus, and then we continue to, you know, scaling and expanding on easy integrations and ecosystem partners, uh, to bring the choice, flexibility, uh, to the customers where, uh, you know, they can leverage inherent software capabilities and leverage it to their application business needs. >>Rob, great to have you on the cube Sergeant Kabar, director of product management, Dell tech, Dell networking, Dell technologies, um, networking really important area. That's where the innovation is. It matters the most latency. You can't change the, the laws of physics, but you can certainly change architectures. This is kind of the new normal going on. Find final point final comment. What can people expect to see around Sonic and where this goes? What, what happens next? How do you see this evolving? >>Well, there's a, uh, you know, I think we start off a journey to an exciting, you know, evolution on a networking happening with Sonic so much. This, this technology has to offer with, you know, a lot of technical value prop and microservices, container architecture with such a diverse community around it. There's, uh, a lot of feature additions, extended use cases that are coming up with Sonic. And we, we, we actively engage in the community with lot of feature enhancements and help also helping stay the community in, in a direction that, you know, uh, brings Sonic to the wider market. So, you know, I think this is, this is great, you know, start to a fantastic journey here. And, uh, we look forward to the exciting things that are coming on the so journey. >>Awesome. Thanks for coming on. Great cube culture. We'll follow up more. I wanna track this Dell networking networking's important software operating systems. It's a system approach distributed computings back modernizing here with Dell technologies. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Awesome. Thank you, John. >>I'm John furry with the cube here at Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching.

(gentle upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. This is season two episode one of an ongoing series covering setting status from the AWS ecosystem. Talking about innovation, here it's open source for this theme. We do this every episode, we pick a theme and have a lot of fun talking to the leaders in the industry and the hottest startups. I'm your host John Furrier here with Lisa Martin in our Palo Alto studios. Lisa great series, great to see you again. >> Good to see you too. Great series, always such spirited conversations with very empowered and enlightened individuals. >> I love the episodic nature of these events, we get more stories out there than ever before. They're the hottest startups in the AWS ecosystem, which is dominating the cloud sector. And there's a lot of them really changing the game on cloud native and the enablement, the stories that are coming out here are pretty compelling, not just from startups they're actually penetrating the enterprise and the buyers are changing their architectures, and it's just really fun to catch the wave here. >> They are, and one of the things too about the open source community is these companies embracing that and how that's opening up their entry to your point into the enterprise. I was talking with several customers, companies who were talking about the 70% of their pipeline comes from the open source community. That's using the premium version of the technology. So, it's really been a very smart, strategic way into the enterprise. >> Yeah, and I love the format too. We get the keynote we're doing now, opening keynote, some great guests. We have Sir John on from AWS started program, he is the global startups lead. We got Swami coming on and then closing keynote with Deepak Singh. Who's really grown in the Amazon organization from containers now, compute services, which now span how modern applications are being built. And I think the big trend that we're seeing that these startups are riding on that big wave is cloud natives driving the modern architecture for software development, not just startups, but existing, large ISV and software companies are rearchitecting and the customers who buy their products and services in the cloud are rearchitecting too. So, it's a whole new growth wave coming in, the modern era of cloud some say, and it's exciting a small startup could be the next big name tomorrow. >> One of the things that kind of was a theme throughout the conversations that I had with these different guests was from a modern application security perspective is, security is key, but it's not just about shifting lab. It's about doing so empowering the developers. They don't have to be security experts. They need to have a developer brain and a security heart, and how those two organizations within companies can work better together, more collaboratively, but ultimately empowering those developers, which goes a long way. >> Well, for the folks who are watching this, the format is very simple. We have a keynote, editorial keynote speakers come in, and then we're going to have a bunch of companies who are going to present their story and their showcase. We've interviewed them, myself, you Dave Vallante and Dave Nicholson from theCUBE team. They're going to tell their stories and between the companies and the AWS heroes, 14 companies are represented and some of them new business models and Deepak Singh who leads the AWS team, he's going to have the closing keynote. He talks about the new changing business model in open source, not just the tech, which has a lot of tech, but how companies are being started around the new business models around open source. It's really, really amazing. >> I bet, and does he see any specific verticals that are taking off? >> Well, he's seeing the contribution from big companies like AWS and the Facebook's of the world and large companies, Netflix, Intuit, all contributing content to the open source and then startups forming around them. So Netflix does some great work. They donated to open source and next thing you know a small group of people get together entrepreneurs, they form a company and they create a platform around it with unification and scale. So, the cloud is enabling this new super application environment, superclouds as we call them, that's emerging and this new supercloud and super applications are scaling data-driven machine learning and AI that's the new formula for success. >> The new formula for success also has to have that velocity that developers expect, but also that the consumerization of tech has kind of driven all of us to expect things very quickly. >> Well, we're going to bring in Serge Shevchenko, AWS Global Startup program into the program. Serge is our partner. He is the leader at AWS who has been working on this program Serge, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, likewise, John, thank you for having me very excited to be here. >> We've been working together on collaborating on this for over a year. Again, season two of this new innovative program, which is a combination of CUBE Media partnership, and AWS getting the stories out. And this has been a real success because there's a real hunger to discover content. And then in the marketplace, as these new solutions coming from startups are the next big thing coming. So, you're starting to see this going on. So I have to ask you, first and foremost, what's the AWS startup showcase about. Can you explain in your terms, your team's vision behind it, and why those startup focus? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know John, we curated the AWS Startup Showcase really to bring meaningful and oftentimes educational content to our customers and partners highlighting innovative solutions within these themes and ultimately to help customers find the best solutions for their use cases, which is a combination of AWS and our partners. And really from pre-seed to IPO, John, the world's most innovative startups build on AWS. From leadership downward, very intentional about cultivating vigorous AWS community and since 2019 at re:Invent at the launch of the AWS Global Startup program, we've helped hundreds of startups accelerate their growth through product development support, go to market and co-sell programs. >> So Serge question for you on the theme of today, John mentioned our showcases having themes. Today's theme is going to cover open source software. Talk to us about how Amazon thinks about opensource. >> Sure, absolutely. And I'll just touch on it briefly, but I'm very excited for the keynote at the end of today, that will be delivered by Deepak the VP of compute services at AWS. We here at Amazon believe in open source. In fact, Amazon contributes to open source in multiple ways, whether that's through directly contributing to third-party project, repos or significant code contributions to Kubernetes, Rust and other projects. And all the way down to leadership participation in organizations such as the CNCF. And supporting of dozens of ISV myself over the years, I've seen explosive growth when it comes to open source adoption. I mean, look at projects like Checkov, within 12 months of launching their open source project, they had about a million users. And another great example is Falco within, under a decade actually they've had about 37 million downloads and that's about 300% increase since it's become an incubating project in the CNCF. So, very exciting things that we're seeing here at AWS. >> So explosive growth, lot of content. What do you hope that our viewers and our guests are going to be able to get out of today? >> Yeah, great question, Lisa. I really hope that today's event will help customers understand why AWS is the best place for them to run open source, commercial and which partner solutions will help them along their journey. I think that today the lineup through the partner solutions and Deepak at the end with the ending keynote is going to present a very valuable narrative for customers and startups in selecting where and which projects to run on AWS. >> That's great stuff Serge would love to have you on and again, I want to just say really congratulate your team and we enjoy working with them. We think this showcase does a great service for the community. It's kind of open source in its own way if I can co contributing working on out there, but you're really getting the voices out at scale. We've got companies like Armory, Kubecost, Sysdig, Tidelift, Codefresh. I mean, these are some of the companies that are changing the game. We even had Patreon a customer and one of the partners sneak with security, all the big names in the startup scene. Plus AWS Deepak saying Swami is going to be on the AWS Heroes. I mean really at scale and this is really a great. So, thank you so much for participating and enabling all of this. >> No, thank you to theCUBE. You've been a great partner in this whole process, very excited for today. >> Thanks Serge really appreciate it. Lisa, what a great segment that was kicking off the event. We've got a great lineup coming up. We've got the keynote, final keynote fireside chat with Deepak Singh a big name at AWS, but Serge in the startup showcase really innovative. >> Very innovative and in a short time period, he talked about the launch of this at re:Invent 2019. They've helped hundreds of startups. We've had over 50 I think on the showcase in the last year or so John. So we really gotten to cover a lot of great customers, a lot of great stories, a lot of great content coming out of theCUBE. >> I love the openness of it. I love the scale, the storytelling. I love the collaboration, a great model, Lisa, great to work with you. We also Dave Vallante and Dave Nicholson interview. They're not here, but let's kick off the show. Let's get started with our next guest Swami. The leader at AWS Swami just got promoted to VP of the database, but also he ran machine learning and AI at AWS. He is a leader. He's the author of the original DynamoDB paper, which is celebrating its 10th year anniversary really impacted distributed computing and open source. Swami's introduced many opensource aspects of products within AWS and has been a leader in the engineering side for many, many years at AWS, from an intern to now an executive. Swami, great to see you. Thanks for coming on our AWS startup showcase. Thanks for spending the time with us. >> My pleasure, thanks again, John. Thanks for having me. >> I wanted to just, if you don't mind asking about the database market over the past 10 to 20 years cloud and application development as you see, has changed a lot. You've been involved in so many product launches over the years. Cloud and machine learning are the biggest waves happening to your point to what you're doing now. Software is under the covers it's powering it all infrastructure is code. Open source has been a big part of it and it continues to grow and change. Deepak Singh from AWS talks about the business model transformation of how like Netflix donates to the open source. Then a company starts around it and creates more growth. Machine learnings and all the open source conversations around automation as developers and builders, like software as cloud and machine learning become the key pistons in the engine. This is a big wave, what's your view on this? How how has cloud scale and data impacting the software market? >> I mean, that's a broad question. So I'm going to break it down to kind of give some of the back data. So now how we are thinking about it first, I'd say when it comes to the open source, I'll start off by saying first the longevity and by ability of open sources are very important to our customers and that is why we have been a significant contributor and supporter of these communities. I mean, there are several efforts in open source, even internally by actually open sourcing some of our key Amazon technologies like Firecracker or BottleRocket or our CDK to help advance the industry. For example, CDK itself provides some really powerful way to build and configure cloud services as well. And we also contribute to a lot of different open source projects that are existing ones, open telemetries and Linux, Java, Redis and Kubernetes, Grafana and Kafka and Robotics Operating System and Hadoop, Leucine and so forth. So, I think, I can go on and on, but even now I'd say the database and observability space say machine learning we have always started with embracing open source in a big material way. If you see, even in deep learning framework, we championed MX Linux and some of the core components and we open sourced our auto ML technology auto Glue on, and also be open sourced and collaborated with partners like Facebook Meta on Fighter showing some major components and there, and then we are open search Edge Compiler. So, I would say the number one thing is, I mean, we are actually are very, very excited to partner with broader community on problems that really mattered to the customers and actually ensure that they are able to get amazing benefit of this. >> And I see machine learning is a huge thing. If you look at how cloud group and when you had DynamoDB paper, when you wrote it, that that was the beginning of, I call the cloud surge. It was the beginning of not just being a resource versus building a data center, certainly a great alternative. Every startup did it. That's history phase one inning and a half, first half inning. Then it became a large scale. Machine learning feels like the same way now. You feel like you're seeing a lot of people using it. A lot of people are playing around with it. It's evolving. It's been around as a science, but combined with cloud scale, this is a big thing. What should people who are in the enterprise think about how should they think about machine learning? How has some of your top customers thought about machine learning as they refactor their applications? What are some of the things that you can share from your experience and journey here? >> I mean, one of the key things I'd say just to set some context on scale and numbers. More than one and a half million customers use our database analytics or ML services end-to-end. Part of which machine learning services and capabilities are easily used by more than a hundred thousand customers at a really good scale. However, I still think in Amazon, we tend to use the phrase, "It's day one in the age of internet," even though it's an, or the phrase, "Now, but it's a golden one," but I would say in the world of machine learning, yes it's day one but I also think we just woke up and we haven't even had a cup of coffee yet. That's really that early, so. And, but when you it's interesting, you've compared it to where cloud was like 10, 12 years ago. That's early days when I used to talk to engineering leaders who are running their own data center and then we talked about cloud and various disruptive technologies. I still used to get a sense about like why cloud and basic and whatnot at that time, Whereas now with machine learning though almost every CIO, CEO, all of them never asked me why machine learning. Instead, the number one question, I get is, how do I get started with it? What are the best use cases? which is great, and this is where I always tell them one of the learnings that we actually learned in Amazon. So again, a few years ago, probably seven or eight years ago, and Amazon itself realized as a company, the impact of what machine learning could do in terms of changing how we actually run our business and what it means to provide better customer experience optimize our supply chain and so far we realized that the we need to help our builders learn machine learning and the help even our business leaders understand the power of machine learning. So we did two things. One, we actually, from a bottom-up level, we built what I call as machine learning university, which is run in my team. It's literally stocked with professors and teachers who offer curriculum to builders so that they get educated on machine learning. And now from a top-down level we also, in our yearly planning process, we call it the operational planning process where we write Amazon style narratives six pages and then answer FAQ's. We asked everyone to answer one question around, like how do you plan to leverage machine learning in your business? And typically when someone says, I really don't play into our, it does not apply. It's usually it doesn't go well. So we kind of politely encourage them to do better and come back with a better answer. This kind of dynamic on top-down and bottom-up, changed the conversation and we started seeing more and more measurable growth. And these are some of the things you're starting to see more and more among our customers too. They see the business benefit, but this is where to address the talent gap. We also made machine learning university curriculum actually now open source and freely available. And we launched SageMaker Studio Lab, which is a no cost, no set up SageMaker notebook service for educating learner profiles and all the students as well. And we are excited to also announce AIMLE scholarship for underrepresented students as well. So, so much more we can do well. >> Well, congratulations on the DynamoDB paper. That's the 10 year anniversary, which is a revolutionary product, changed the game that did change the world and that a huge impact. And now as machine learning goes to the next level, the next intern out there is at school with machine learning. They're going to be writing that next paper, your advice to them real quick. >> My biggest advice is, always, I encourage all the builders to always dream big, and don't be hesitant to speak your mind as long as you have the right conviction saying you're addressing a real customer problem. So when you feel like you have an amazing solution to address a customer problem, take the time to articulate your thoughts better, and then feel free to speak up and communicate to the folks you're working with. And I'm sure any company that nurtures good talent and knows how to hire and develop the best they will be willing to listen and then you will be able to have an amazing impact in the industry. >> Swami, great to know you're CUBE alumni love our conversations from intern on the paper of DynamoDB to the technical leader at AWS and database analyst machine learning, congratulations on all your success and continue innovating on behalf of the customers and the industry. Thanks for spending the time here on theCUBE and our program, appreciate it. >> Thanks again, John. Really appreciate it. >> Okay, now let's kick off our program. That ends the keynote track here on the AWS startup showcase. Season two, episode one, enjoy the program and don't miss the closing keynote with Deepak Singh. He goes into great detail on the changing business models, all the exciting open source innovation. (gentle bright music)

>> Sue: Hello everybody. Thank you for joining us today for the Virtual Vertica BDC 2020. Today's breakout session in entitled Extending Vertica with the Latest Vertica Ecosystem and Open Source Initiatives. My name is Sue LeClaire, Director of Marketing at Vertica and I'll be your host for this webinar. Joining me is Tom Wall, a member of the Vertica engineering team. But before we begin, I encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait. Just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click submit. There will be a Q and A session at the end of the presentation. We'll answer as many questions as we're able to during that time. Any questions that we don't get to, we'll do our best to answer them offline. Alternatively, you can visit the Vertica forums to post you questions after the session. Our engineering team is planning to join the forums to keep the conversation going. Also a reminder that you can maximize your screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slides. And yes, this virtual session is being recorded and will be available to view on demand later this week. We'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready. So let's get started. Tom, over to you. >> Tom: Hello everyone and thanks for joining us today for this talk. My name is Tom Wall and I am the leader of Vertica's ecosystem engineering team. We are the team that focuses on building out all the developer tools, third party integrations that enables the SoftMaker system that surrounds Vertica to thrive. So today, we'll be talking about some of our new open source initatives and how those can be really effective for you and make things easier for you to build and integrate Vertica with the rest of your technology stack. We've got several new libraries, integration projects and examples, all open source, to share, all being built out in the open on our GitHub page. Whether you use these open source projects or not, this is a very exciting new effort that will really help to grow the developer community and enable lots of exciting new use cases. So, every developer out there has probably had to deal with the problem like this. You have some business requirements, to maybe build some new Vertica-powered application. Maybe you have to build some new system to visualize some data that's that's managed by Vertica. The various circumstances, lots of choices will might be made for you that constrain your approach to solving a particular problem. These requirements can come from all different places. Maybe your solution has to work with a specific visualization tool, or web framework, because the business has already invested in the licensing and the tooling to use it. Maybe it has to be implemented in a specific programming language, since that's what all the developers on the team know how to write code with. While Vertica has many different integrations with lots of different programming language and systems, there's a lot of them out there, and we don't have integrations for all of them. So how do you make ends meet when you don't have all the tools you need? All you have to get creative, using tools like PyODBC, for example, to bridge between programming languages and frameworks to solve the problems you need to solve. Most languages do have an ODBC-based database interface. ODBC is our C-Library and most programming languages know how to call C code, somehow. So that's doable, but it often requires lots of configuration and troubleshooting to make all those moving parts work well together. So that's enough to get the job done but native integrations are usually a lot smoother and easier. So rather than, for example, in Python trying to fight with PyODBC, to configure things and get Unicode working, and to compile all the different pieces, the right way is to make it all work smoothly. It would be much better if you could just PIP install library and get to work. And with Vertica-Python, a new Python client library, you can actually do that. So that story, I assume, probably sounds pretty familiar to you. Sounds probably familiar to a lot of the audience here because we're all using Vertica. And our challenge, as Big Data practitioners is to make sense of all this stuff, despite those technical and non-technical hurdles. Vertica powers lots of different businesses and use cases across all kinds of different industries and verticals. While there's a lot different about us, we're all here together right now for this talk because we do have some things in common. We're all using Vertica, and we're probably also using Vertica with other systems and tools too, because it's important to use the right tool for the right job. That's a founding principle of Vertica and it's true today too. In this constantly changing technology landscape, we need lots of good tools and well established patterns, approaches, and advice on how to combine them so that we can be successful doing our jobs. Luckily for us, Vertica has been designed to be easy to build with and extended in this fashion. Databases as a whole had had this goal from the very beginning. They solve the hard problems of managing data so that you don't have to worry about it. Instead of worrying about those hard problems, you can focus on what matters most to you and your domain. So implementing that business logic, solving that problem, without having to worry about all of these intense, sometimes details about what it takes to manage a database at scale. With the declarative syntax of SQL, you tell Vertica what the answer is that you want. You don't tell Vertica how to get it. Vertica will figure out the right way to do it for you so that you don't have to worry about it. So this SQL abstraction is very nice because it's a well defined boundary where lots of developers know SQL, and it allows you to express what you need without having to worry about those details. So we can be the experts in data management while you worry about your problems. This goes beyond though, what's accessible through SQL to Vertica. We've got well defined extension and integration points across the product that allow you to customize this experience even further. So if you want to do things write your own SQL functions, or extend database softwares with UDXs, you can do so. If you have a custom data format that might be a proprietary format, or some source system that Vertica doesn't natively support, we have extension points that allow you to use those. To make it very easy to do passive, parallel, massive data movement, loading into Vertica but also to export Vertica to send data to other systems. And with these new features in time, we also could do the same kinds of things with Machine Learning models, importing and exporting to tools like TensorFlow. And it's these integration points that have enabled Vertica to build out this open architecture and a rich ecosystem of tools, both open source and closed source, of different varieties that solve all different problems that are common in this big data processing world. Whether it's open source, streaming systems like Kafka or Spark, or more traditional ETL tools on the loading side, but also, BI tools and visualizers and things like that to view and use the data that you keep in your database on the right side. And then of course, Vertica needs to be flexible enough to be able to run anywhere. So you can really take Vertica and use it the way you want it to solve the problems that you need to solve. So Vertica has always employed open standards, and integrated it with all kinds of different open source systems. What we're really excited to talk about now is that we are taking our new integration projects and making those open source too. In particular, we've got two new open source client libraries that allow you to build Vertica applications for Python and Go. These libraries act as a foundation for all kinds of interesting applications and tools. Upon those libraries, we've also built some integrations ourselves. And we're using these new libraries to power some new integrations with some third party products. Finally, we've got lots of new examples and reference implementations out on our GitHub page that can show you how to combine all these moving parts and exciting ways to solve new problems. And the code for all these things is available now on our GitHub page. And so you can use it however you like, and even help us make it better too. So the first such project that we have is called Vertica-Python. Vertica-Python began at our customer, Uber. And then in late 2018, we collaborated with them and we took it over and made Vertica-Python the first official open source client for Vertica You can use this to build your own Python applications, or you can use it via tools that were written in Python. Python has grown a lot in recent years and it's very common language to solve lots of different problems and use cases in the Big Data space from things like DevOps admission and Data Science or Machine Learning, or just homegrown applications. We use Python a lot internally for our own QA testing and automation needs. And with the Python 2 End Of Life, that happened at the end of 2019, it was important that we had a robust Python solution to help migrate our internal stuff off of Python 2. And also to provide a nice migration path for all of you our users that might be worried about the same problems with their own Python code. So Vertica-Python is used already for lots of different tools, including Vertica's admintools now starting with 9.3.1. It was also used by DataDog to build a Vertica-DataDog integration that allows you to monitor your Vertica infrastructure within DataDog. So here's a little example of how you might use the Python Client to do some some work. So here we open in connection, we run a query to find out what node we've connected to, and then we do a little DataLoad by running a COPY statement. And this is designed to have a familiar look and feel if you've ever used a Python Database Client before. So we implement the DB API 2.0 standard and it feels like a Python package. So that includes things like, it's part of the centralized package manager, so you can just PIP install this right now and go start using it. We also have our client for Go length. So this is called vertica-sql-go. And this is a very similar story, just in a different context or the different programming language. So vertica-sql-go, began as a collaboration with the Microsoft Focus SecOps Group who builds microfocus' security products some of which use vertica internally to provide some of those analytics. So you can use this to build your own apps in the Go programming language but you can also use it via tools that are written Go. So most notably, we have our Grafana integration, which we'll talk a little bit more about later, that leverages this new clients to provide Grafana visualizations for vertica data. And Go is another rising popularity programming language 'cause it offers an interesting balance of different programming design trade-offs. So it's got good performance, got a good current concurrency and memory safety. And we liked all those things and we're using it to power some internal monitoring stuff of our own. And here's an example of the code you can write with this client. So this is Go code that does a similar thing. It opens a connection, it runs a little test query, and then it iterates over those rows, processing them using Go data types. You get that native look and feel just like you do in Python, except this time in the Go language. And you can go get it the way you usually package things with Go by running that command there to acquire this package. And it's important to note here for the DC projects, we're really doing open source development. We're not just putting code out on our GitHub page. So if you go out there and look, you can see that you can ask questions, you can report bugs, you can submit poll requests yourselves and you can collaborate directly with our engineering team and the other vertica users out on our GitHub page. Because it's out on our GitHub page, it allows us to be a little bit faster with the way we ship and deliver functionality compared to the core vertica release cycle. So in 2019, for example, as we were building features to prepare for the Python 3 migration, we shipped 11 different releases with 40 customer reported issues, filed on GitHub. That was done over 78 different poll requests and with lots of community engagement as we do so. So lots of people are using this already, we see as our GitHub badge last showed with about 5000 downloads of this a day of people using it in their software. And again, we want to make this easy, not just to use but also to contribute and understand and collaborate with us. So all these projects are built using the Apache 2.0 license. The master branch is always available and stable with the latest creative functionality. And you can always build it and test it the way we do so that it's easy for you to understand how it works and to submit contributions or bug fixes or even features. It uses automated testing both for locally and with poll requests. And for vertica-python, it's fully automated with Travis CI. So we're really excited about doing this and we're really excited about where it can go in the future. 'Cause this offers some exciting opportunities for us to collaborate with you more directly than we have ever before. You can contribute improvements and help us guide the direction of these projects, but you can also work with each other to share knowledge and implementation details and various best practices. And so maybe you think, "Well, I don't use Python, "I don't use go so maybe it doesn't matter to me." But I would argue it really does matter. Because even if you don't use these tools and languages, there's lots of amazing vertica developers out there who do. And these clients do act as low level building blocks for all kinds of different interesting tools, both in these Python and Go worlds, but also well beyond that. Because these implementations and examples really generalize to lots of different use cases. And we're going to do a deeper dive now into some of these to understand exactly how that's the case and what you can do with these things. So let's take a deeper look at some of the details of what it takes to build one of these open source client libraries. So these database client interfaces, what are they exactly? Well, we all know SQL, but if you look at what SQL specifies, it really only talks about how to manipulate the data within the database. So once you're connected and in, you can run commands with SQL. But these database client interfaces address the rest of those needs. So what does the programmer need to do to actually process those SQL queries? So these interfaces are specific to a particular language or a technology stack. But the use cases and the architectures and design patterns are largely the same between different languages. They all have a need to do some networking and connect and authenticate and create a session. They all need to be able to run queries and load some data and deal with problems and errors. And then they also have a lot of metadata and Type Mapping because you want to use these clients the way you use those programming languages. Which might be different than the way that vertica's data types and vertica's semantics work. So some of this client interfaces are truly standards. And they are robust enough in terms of what they design and call for to support a truly pluggable driver model. Where you might write an application that codes directly against the standard interface, and you can then plug in a different database driver, like a JDBC driver, to have that application work with any database that has a JDBC driver. So most of these interfaces aren't as robust as a JDBC or ODBC but that's okay. 'Cause it's good as a standard is, every database is unique for a reason. And so you can't really expose all of those unique properties of a database through these standard interfaces. So vertica's unique in that it can scale to the petabytes and beyond. And you can run it anywhere in any environment, whether it's on-prem or on clouds. So surely there's something about vertica that's unique, and we want to be able to take advantage of that fact in our solutions. So even though these standards might not cover everything, there's often a need and common patterns that arise to solve these problems in similar ways. When there isn't enough of a standard to define those comments, semantics that different databases might have in common, what you often see is tools will invent plug in layers or glue code to compensate by defining application wide standard to cover some of these same semantics. Later on, we'll get into some of those details and show off what exactly that means. So if you connect to a vertica database, what's actually happening under the covers? You have an application, you have a need to run some queries, so what does that actually look like? Well, probably as you would imagine, your application is going to invoke some API calls and some client library or tool. This library takes those API calls and implements them, usually by issuing some networking protocol operations, communicating over the network to ask vertica to do the heavy lifting required for that particular API call. And so these API's usually do the same kinds of things although some of the details might differ between these different interfaces. But you do things like establish a connection, run a query, iterate over your rows, manage your transactions, that sort of thing. Here's an example from vertica-python, which just goes into some of the details of what actually happens during the Connect API call. And you can see all these details in our GitHub implementation of this. There's actually a lot of moving parts in what happens during a connection. So let's walk through some of that and see what actually goes on. I might have my API call like this where I say Connect and I give it a DNS name, which is my entire cluster. And I give you my connection details, my username and password. And I tell the Python Client to get me a session, give me a connection so I can start doing some work. Well, in order to implement this, what needs to happen? First, we need to do some TCP networking to establish our connection. So we need to understand what the request is, where you're going to connect to and why, by pressing the connection string. and vertica being a distributed system, we want to provide high availability, so we might need to do some DNS look-ups to resolve that DNS name which might be an entire cluster and not just a single machine. So that you don't have to change your connection string every time you add or remove nodes to the database. So we do some high availability and DNS lookup stuff. And then once we connect, we might do Load Balancing too, to balance the connections across the different initiator nodes in the cluster, or in a sub cluster, as needed. Once we land on the node we want to be at, we might do some TLS to secure our connections. And vertica supports the industry standard TLS protocols, so this looks pretty familiar for everyone who've used TLS anywhere before. So you're going to do a certificate exchange and the client might send the server certificate too, and then you going to verify that the server is who it says it is, so that you can know that you trust it. Once you've established that connection, and secured it, then you can start actually beginning to request a session within vertica. So you going to send over your user information like, "Here's my username, "here's the database I want to connect to." You might send some information about your application like a session label, so that you can differentiate on the database with monitoring queries, what the different connections are and what their purpose is. And then you might also send over some session settings to do things like auto commit, to change the state of your session for the duration of this connection. So that you don't have to remember to do that with every query that you have. Once you've asked vertica for a session, before vertica will give you one, it has to authenticate you. and vertica has lots of different authentication mechanisms. So there's a negotiation that happens there to decide how to authenticate you. Vertica decides based on who you are, where you're coming from on the network. And then you'll do an auth-specific exchange depending on what the auth mechanism calls for until you are authenticated. Finally, vertica trusts you and lets you in, so you going to establish a session in vertica, and you might do some note keeping on the client side just to know what happened. So you might log some information, you might record what the version of the database is, you might do some protocol feature negotiation. So if you connect to a version of the database that doesn't support all these protocols, you might decide to turn some functionality off and that sort of thing. But finally, after all that, you can return from this API call and then your connection is good to go. So that connection is just one example of many different APIs. And we're excited here because with vertica-python we're really opening up the vertica client wire protocol for the first time. And so if you're a low level vertica developer and you might have used Postgres before, you might know that some of vertica's client protocol is derived from Postgres. But they do differ in many significant ways. And this is the first time we've ever revealed those details about how it works and why. So not all Postgres protocol features work with vertica because vertica doesn't support all the features that Postgres does. Postgres, for example, has a large object interface that allows you to stream very wide data values over. Whereas vertica doesn't really have very wide data values, you have 30, you have long bar charts, but that's about as wide as you can get. Similarly, the vertica protocol supports lots of features not present in Postgres. So Load Balancing, for example, which we just went through an example of, Postgres is a single node system, it doesn't really make sense for Postgres to have Load Balancing. But Load Balancing is really important for vertica because it is a distributed system. Vertica-python serves as an open reference implementation of this protocol. With all kinds of new details and extension points that we haven't revealed before. So if you look at these boxes below, all these different things are new protocol features that we've implemented since August 2019, out in the open on our GitHub page for Python. Now, the vertica-sql-go implementation of these things is still in progress, but the core protocols are there for basic query operations. There's more to do there but we'll get there soon. So this is really cool 'cause not only do you have now a Python Client implementation, and you have a Go client implementation of this, but you can use this protocol reference to do lots of other things, too. The obvious thing you could do is build more clients for other languages. So if you have a need for a client in some other language that are vertica doesn't support yet, now you have everything available to solve that problem and to go about doing so if you need to. But beyond clients, it's also used for other things. So you might use it for mocking and testing things. So rather than connecting to a real vertica database, you can simulate some of that. You can also use it to do things like query routing and proxies. So Uber, for example, this log here in this link tells a great story of how they route different queries to different vertical clusters by intercepting these protocol messages, parsing the queries in them and deciding which clusters to send them to. So a lot of these things are just ideas today, but now that you have the source code, there's no limit in sight to what you can do with this thing. And so we're very interested in hearing your ideas and requests and we're happy to offer advice and collaborate on building some of these things together. So let's take a look now at some of the things we've already built that do these things. So here's a picture of vertica's Grafana connector with some data powered from an example that we have in this blog link here. So this has an internet of things use case to it, where we have lots of different sensors recording flight data, feeding into Kafka which then gets loaded into vertica. And then finally, it gets visualized nicely here with Grafana. And Grafana's visualizations make it really easy to analyze the data with your eyes and see when something something happens. So in these highlighted sections here, you notice a drop in some of the activity, that's probably a problem worth looking into. It might be a lot harder to see that just by staring at a large table yourself. So how does a picture like that get generated with a tool like Grafana? Well, Grafana specializes in visualizing time series data. And time can be really tricky for computers to do correctly. You got time zones, daylight savings, leap seconds, negative infinity timestamps, please don't ever use those. In every system, if it wasn't hard enough, just with those problems, what makes it harder is that every system does it slightly differently. So if you're querying some time data, how do we deal with these semantic differences as we cross these domain boundaries from Vertica to Grafana's back end architecture, which is implemented in Go on it's front end, which is implemented with JavaScript? Well, you read this from bottom up in terms of the processing. First, you select the timestamp and Vertica is timestamp has to be converted to a Go time object. And we have to reconcile the differences that there might be as we translate it. So Go time has a different time zone specifier format, and it also supports nanosecond precision, while Vertica only supports microsecond precision. So that's not too big of a deal when you're querying data because you just see some extra zeros, not fractional seconds. But on the way in, if we're loading data, we have to find a way to resolve those things. Once it's into the Go process, it has to be converted further to render in the JavaScript UI. So that there, the Go time object has to be converted to a JavaScript Angular JS Date object. And there too, we have to reconcile those differences. So a lot of these differences might just be presentation, and not so much the actual data changing, but you might want to choose to render the date into a more human readable format, like we've done in this example here. Here's another picture. This is another picture of some time series data, and this one shows you can actually write your own queries with Grafana to provide answers. So if you look closely here you can see there's actually some functions that might not look too familiar with you if you know vertica's functions. Vertica doesn't have a dollar underscore underscore time function or a time filter function. So what's actually happening there? How does this actually provide an answer if it's not really real vertica syntax? Well, it's not sufficient to just know how to manipulate data, it's also really important that you know how to operate with metadata. So information about how the data works in the data source, Vertica in this case. So Grafana needs to know how time works in detail for each data source beyond doing that basic I/O that we just saw in the previous example. So it needs to know, how do you connect to the data source to get some time data? How do you know what time data types and functions there are and how they behave? How do you generate a query that references a time literal? And finally, once you've figured out how to do all that, how do you find the time in the database? How do you do know which tables have time columns and then they might be worth rendering in this kind of UI. So Go's database standard doesn't actually really offer many metadata interfaces. Nevertheless, Grafana needs to know those answers. And so it has its own plugin layer that provides a standardizing layer whereby every data source can implement hints and metadata customization needed to have an extensible data source back end. So we have another open source project, the Vertica-Grafana data source, which is a plugin that uses Grafana's extension points with JavaScript and the front end plugins and also with Go in the back end plugins to provide vertica connectivity inside Grafana. So the way this works, is that the plugin frameworks defines those standardizing functions like time and time filter, and it's our plugin that's going to rewrite them in terms of vertica syntax. So in this example, time gets rewritten to a vertica cast. And time filter becomes a BETWEEN predicate. So that's one example of how you can use Grafana, but also how you might build any arbitrary visualization tool that works with data in Vertica. So let's now look at some other examples and reference architectures that we have out in our GitHub page. For some advanced integrations, there's clearly a need to go beyond these standards. So SQL and these surrounding standards, like JDBC, and ODBC, were really critical in the early days of Vertica, because they really enabled a lot of generic database tools. And those will always continue to play a really important role, but the Big Data technology space moves a lot faster than these old database data can keep up with. So there's all kinds of new advanced analytics and query pushdown logic that were never possible 10 or 20 years ago, that Vertica can do natively. There's also all kinds of data-oriented application workflows doing things like streaming data, or Parallel Loading or Machine Learning. And all of these things, we need to build software with, but we don't really have standards to go by. So what do we do there? Well, open source implementations make for easier integrations, and applications all over the place. So even if you're not using Grafana for example, other tools have similar challenges that you need to overcome. And it helps to have an example there to show you how to do it. Take Machine Learning, for example. There's been many excellent Machine Learning tools that have arisen over the years to make data science and the task of Machine Learning lot easier. And a lot of those have basic database connectivity, but they generally only treat the database as a source of data. So they do lots of data I/O to extract data from a database like Vertica for processing in some other engine. We all know that's not the most efficient way to do it. It's much better if you can leverage Vertica scale and bring the processing to the data. So a lot of these tools don't take full advantage of Vertica because there's not really a uniform way to go do so with these standards. So instead, we have a project called vertica-ml-python. And this serves as a reference architecture of how you can do scalable machine learning with Vertica. So this project establishes a familiar machine learning workflow that scales with vertica. So it feels similar to like a scickit-learn project except all the processing and aggregation and heavy lifting and data processing happens in vertica. So this makes for a much more lightweight, scalable approach than you might otherwise be used to. So with vertica-ml-python, you can probably use this yourself. But you could also see how it works. So if it doesn't meet all your needs, you could still see the code and customize it to build your own approach. We've also got lots of examples of our UDX framework. And so this is an older GitHub project. We've actually had this for a couple of years, but it is really useful and important so I wanted to plug it here. With our User Defined eXtensions framework or UDXs, this allows you to extend the operators that vertica executes when it does a database load or a database query. So with UDXs, you can write your own domain logic in a C++, Java or Python or R. And you can call them within the context of a SQL query. And vertica brings your logic to that data, and makes it fast and scalable and fault tolerant and correct for you. So you don't have to worry about all those hard problems. So our UDX examples, demonstrate how you can use our SDK to solve interesting problems. And some of these examples might be complete, total usable packages or libraries. So for example, we have a curl source that allows you to extract data from any curlable endpoint and load into vertica. We've got things like an ODBC connector that allows you to access data in an external database via an ODBC driver within the context of a vertica query, all kinds of parsers and string processors and things like that. We also have more exciting and interesting things where you might not really think of vertica being able to do that, like a heat map generator, which takes some XY coordinates and renders it on top of an image to show you the hotspots in it. So the image on the right was actually generated from one of our intern gaming sessions a few years back. So all these things are great examples that show you not just how you can solve problems, but also how you can use this SDK to solve neat things that maybe no one else has to solve, or maybe that are unique to your business and your needs. Another exciting benefit is with testing. So the test automation strategy that we have in vertica-python these clients, really generalizes well beyond the needs of a database client. Anyone that's ever built a vertica integration or an application, probably has a need to write some integration tests. And that could be hard to do with all the moving parts, in the big data solution. But with our code being open source, you can see in vertica-python, in particular, how we've structured our tests to facilitate smooth testing that's fast, deterministic and easy to use. So we've automated the download process, the installation deployment process, of a Vertica Community Edition. And with a single click, you can run through the tests locally and part of the PR workflow via Travis CI. We also do this for multiple different python environments. So for all python versions from 2.7 up to 3.8 for different Python interpreters, and for different Linux distros, we're running through all of them very quickly with ease, thanks to all this automation. So today, you can see how we do it in vertica-python, in the future, we might want to spin that out into its own stand-alone testbed starter projects so that if you're starting any new vertica integration, this might be a good starting point for you to get going quickly. So that brings us to some of the future work we want to do here in the open source space . Well, there's a lot of it. So in terms of the the client stuff, for Python, we are marching towards our 1.0 release, which is when we aim to be protocol complete to support all of vertica's unique protocols, including COPY LOCAL and some new protocols invented to support complex types, which is our new feature in vertica 10. We have some cursor enhancements to do things like better streaming and improved performance. Beyond that we want to take it where you want to bring it. So send us your requests in the Go client fronts, just about a year behind Python in terms of its protocol implementation, but the basic operations are there. But we still have more work to do to implement things like load balancing, some of the advanced auths and other things. But they're two, we want to work with you and we want to focus on what's important to you so that we can continue to grow and be more useful and more powerful over time. Finally, this question of, "Well, what about beyond database clients? "What else might we want to do with open source?" If you're building a very deep or a robust vertica integration, you probably need to do a lot more exciting things than just run SQL queries and process the answers. Especially if you're an OEM or you're a vendor that resells vertica packaged as a black box piece of a larger solution, you might to have managed the whole operational lifecycle of vertica. There's even fewer standards for doing all these different things compared to the SQL clients. So we started with the SQL clients 'cause that's a well established pattern, there's lots of downstream work that that can enable. But there's also clearly a need for lots of other open source protocols, architectures and examples to show you how to do these things and do have real standards. So we talked a little bit about how you could do UDXs or testing or Machine Learning, but there's all sorts of other use cases too. That's why we're excited to announce here our awesome vertica, which is a new collection of open source resources available on our GitHub page. So if you haven't heard of this awesome manifesto before, I highly recommend you check out this GitHub page on the right. We're not unique here but there's lots of awesome projects for all kinds of different tools and systems out there. And it's a great way to establish a community and share different resources, whether they're open source projects, blogs, examples, references, community resources, and all that. And this tool is an open source project. So it's an open source wiki. And you can contribute to it by submitting yourself to PR. So we've seeded it with some of our favorite tools and projects out there but there's plenty more out there and we hope to see more grow over time. So definitely check this out and help us make it better. So with that, I'm going to wrap up. I wanted to thank you all. Special thanks to Siting Ren and Roger Huebner, who are the project leads for the Python and Go clients respectively. And also, thanks to all the customers out there who've already been contributing stuff. This has already been going on for a long time and we hope to keep it going and keep it growing with your help. So if you want to talk to us, you can find us at this email address here. But of course, you can also find us on the Vertica forums, or you could talk to us on GitHub too. And there you can find links to all the different projects I talked about today. And so with that, I think we're going to wrap up and now we're going to hand it off for some Q&A.

>> Hi, I'm Peter Burris, Welcome to Wikibon's Action Item. (slow techno music) Once again Wikibon's research team is assembled, centered here in The Cube Studios in lovely Palo Alto, California, so I've got David Floyer and George Gilbert with me here in the studio, on the line we have Neil Raden and Jim Kobielus, thank you once again for joining us guys. This week we are going to talk about an issue that has been dominant consideration in the industry, but it's unclear exactly what direction it's going to take, and that is the role that open source is going to play in the next generation of solving problems with technology, or we could say the role that open source will play in future digital transformations. No one can argue whether or not open source has been hugely consequential, as I said it has been, it's been one of the major drivers of not only new approaches to creating value, but also new types of solutions that actually are leading to many of the most successful technology implementations that we've seen ever, that is unlikely to change, but the question is what formal open source take as we move into an era where there's new classes of individuals creating value, like data scientists, where those new problems that we're trying to solve, like problems that are mainly driven by the role that data as opposed to code plays, and that there are new classes of providers, namely service providers as opposed to product or software providers, these issues are going to come together, and have some pretty important changes on how open source behaves over the next few years, what types of challenges it's going to successfully take on, and ultimately how users are going to be able to get value out of it. So to start the conversation off George, let's start by making a quick observation, what has the history of open source been, take us through it kind of quickly. >> The definition has changed, in its first incarnation it was fixed UNIX fragmentation and the high price of UNIX system servers, meaning UNIX the proprietary UNIX's and the proprietary servers they were built, that actually rather quickly morphed into a second incarnation where it was let's take the Linux stack, Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP, Python, and substitute that for the old incumbents, which was UNIX, BEA Web Logic, the J2E server and Oracle Database on an EMC storage device. So that was the collapse of the price of infrastructure, so really quickly then it morphed into something very, very different, which was we had the growth of the giant Internet scale vendors, and neither on pricing nor on capacity could traditional software serve their needs, so Google didn't quite do open source, but they published papers about what they did, those papers then were implemented. >> Like Map Produce. Yeah Map Produce, Big Table, Google File System, those became the basis of Hadoop which Yahoo open sourced. There is another incarnation going, that's probably getting near its end of life right now, which is sort of a hybrid, where you might take Kafka which is open source, and put sort of proprietary bits around it for management and things like that, same what Cloudera, this is called the open core model, it's not clear if you can build a big company around it, but the principle is, the principle for most of these is, the value of the software is declining, partly because it's open source, and partly because it's so easy to build new software systems now, and the hard part is helping the customer run the stuff, and that's where some of these vendors are capturing it. >> So let's David turn our attention to how that's going to turn into actual money. So in this first generation of open source, I think up until now, certainly Red Hat, Canonical have made money by packaging and putting forward distributions, that have made a lot of money, IBM has been one of the leaders in contributing open source, and then turning that into a services business, Cloudera, Horton Works, NapR, some of these other companies have not generated the same type of market presence that a Red Hat or Canonical have put forward, but that doesn't mean there aren't companies out there that have been very successful at appropriating significant returns out of open source software, mainly however they're doing it as George said, as a service, give us some examples. >> I think the key part of open source is providing a win-win environment, so that people are paid to do stuff, and what is happening now a lot is that people are putting stuff into open source in order that it becomes a standard, and also in order that it is maintained by the community as a whole. So those two functions, those two capabilities of being paid by a company often, by IBM or by whoever it is to do something on behalf of that company, so that it becomes a standard, so that it becomes accepted, that is a good business model, in the sense that it's win-win, the developer gets recognition, the person paying for it achieves their business objective of for example getting a standard recognized-- >> A volume. >> Volume, yes. >> So it's a way to get to volume for the technology that you want to build your business around. >> Yes, what I think is far more difficult in this area is application type software, so where open source has been successful, as George said is in the stacks themselves, the lower end of the stacks, there are a few, and they usually come from very very successful applications like Word, Microsoft Word, or things like that where they can be copied, and be put into open source, but even there they have around them software from a company, Red Hat or whoever it is, that will make it successful. >> Yes but open office wasn't that successful, get to the kind of, today we have Amazon, we have some of the hyper scalars that are using that open core model and putting forward some pretty powerful services, is that the new Red Hat, is that the new Canonical? >> The person who's made most money is clearly Amazon, they took open source code and made it robust, and made it in volume, those are the two key things you to have for success, it's got to be robust, it's got to be in volume, and it's very difficult for the open source community to achieve that on its own, it needs the support of a large company to do that, and it needs the value that that large company is going to get from it, for them to put those resources in. So that has been a very successful model a lot of people decry it because they're not giving back, and there's an argument-- >> They being Amazon, have not given back quite as much. >> Yes they have relatively very few commiters. I think that's more of a problem in the T&Cs of the open source contract, so those should probably be changed, to put more onus on people to give back into the pool. >> So let me stop you, so we have identified one thing that is likely going to have to be evolved as we move forward, to prevent problems, some of the terms and conditions, we try to ensure that there is that quid pro quo, that that win-win exists. So Jim Kobielus, let me ask you a question, open source has been, as David mentioned, open source has been more successful where there is a clear model, a clear target of what the community is trying to build, it hasn't been quite successful, where it is in fact is expected that the open source community is going to start with some of the original designs, so for example, there's an enormous plethora of big data tools, and yet people are starting to ask why is big data more successful, and partly it's because putting these tools together is so difficult. So are we going to see the type of artifacts and assets and technologies associated with machine learning, AI, deep learning et cetera, easily lend themselves to an open source treatment, what do you think? >> I think were going to see open source very much take off in the niches of the deep learning and machine learning AI space, where the target capabilities we've built are fairly well understood by our broad community. Machine learning clearly, we have a fair number of frameworks that are already well established, with respect to the core capabilities that need to be performed from modeling and training, and deployment of statistical models into applications. That's where we see a fair amount of takeoff for Tensor Flow, which Google built in an open source, because the core of deep learning in terms of the algorithm, in terms of the kinds of functions you perform to be able to take data and do feature engineering and algorithm selection are fairly well understood, so those are the kinds of very discreet capabilities for which open source code is becoming standard, but there's many different alternative frameworks for doing that, Tensor Flow being one of them, that are jostling for presence in the market. The term is commoditized, more of those core capabilities are being commoditized by the fact that there well understood and agreed to by a broad community. So those are the discrete areas we're seeing the open source alternatives become predominant, but when you take a Tensor Flow and combine it with a Spark, and with a Hadoop and a Kafka and broader collections of capabilities that are needed for robust infrastructure, those are disparate communities that each have their own participants committed and so forth, nobody owns that overall step, there's no equivalent of a lamp stack were all things to do with deep learning machine learning AI on an open source basis come to the fore. If some group of companies is going to own that broadening stack, that would indicate some degree of maturation for this overall ecosystem, that's not happening yet, we don't see that happening right now. >> So Jim, I want to, my bias, I hate the term commoditization, but I Want to unify what you said with something that David said, essentially what we're talking about is the agreement in a collaborative open way around the conventions of how we perform work that compute model which then turns into products and technologies that can in fact be distributed and regarded as a standard, and regarded as a commodity around which trading can take place. But what about the data side of things George, we have got, Jim's articulated I think a pretty good case, that we're going to start seeing some tools in the marketplace, it's going to be interesting to see whether that is just further layering on top of all this craziness that is happening in the big data world, and just adding to it in the ML world, but how does the data fit into this, are we going to see something that looks like open source data in the marketplace? >> Yes, yes, and a modified yes. Let me take those in two pieces. Just to be slightly technical, hopefully not being too pedantic, software used to mean algorithms and data structures, so in other words the recipe for what to do, and the buckets for where to put the data, that has changed in the data in terms of machine learning, analytic world where the algorithms and data are so tied together, the instances of the data, not the buckets, that the data changed the algorithms, the algorithms change the data, the significance of that is, when we build applications now, it's never done, and so you go, the construct we've been focusing on is the digital twin, more broadly defined than a smart device, but when you go from one vendor and you sort of partially build it, it's an evergreen thing, it's never done, then you go to the next vendor, but you need to be able to backport some core of that to the original vendor, so for all intents and purposes that's open source, but it boils down to actually the original Berkeley license for open source, not the Apache one everyone is using now. And remind me of the other question? >> The other issue is are we going to see datasets become open source like we see code bases and code fragments and algorithms becoming open source? >> Yes this is also, just the way Amazon made infrastructure commoditized and rentable, there are going to be many datasets were they used to be proprietary, like a Google web crawl, and Google knowledge graph of disambiguation people, places and things, some of these things are either becoming open source, or openly accessible by API, so when you put those resources together you're seeing a massive deflation, or a massive shrinkage in the capital intensity of building these sorts of apps. >> So Neil, if we take a look at where we are this far, we can see that there is, even though we're moving to a services oriented model, Amazon for example is a company that is able to generate commercial rents out of open source software, Jim has made a pretty compelling case that open source software can be, or will emerge out of the tooling world for some of these new applications, there are going to be some examples of datasets, or at least APIs to datasets that will look more open source like, so it's not inconceivable that we'll see some actual open source data, I think GDPR, and some other regulations, we're still early in the process of figuring out how we're going to turn data into commodity, using Jim's words. But what about the personnel, what about the people? There were reasons why developers moved to open source, some of the soft reasons that motivated them to do things, who they work with, getting the recognition, working on relevant projects, working with relevant technologies, are we going to see a similar set of soft motivators, diffuse into the data scientist world, so that these individuals, the real ones who are creating the real value, are going to have some degree of motivation to participate with each other collaborate with each other in an open source way, what do you think? >> Good question, I think the answer is absolutely true, but it's not unique to data scientists, academics, scientists in molecular biology, civil engineers, they all wannabe recognized by their peers, on some level beyond just their, just what they're doing in their organization, but there is another segment of data scientists that are just guys working for a paycheck, and generating predictive analysis and helping the company along and so forth, and that's what they're going to do. The whole open source thing, you remember object programming, you remember JavaBeans, you remember Web Services, we tried to turn developers into librarians, and when they wanted to develop something, you go to Github, I go to Github right now and I say I'm looking for a utility that can figure out why my face is so pink on this camera, I get 1000 listings of programs, and have no idea which ones work and which ones don't, so I think the whole open source thing is about to explode, it already has, in terms of piece parts. But I think managing in an organization is different, and when I say an organization, there's the Googles and the Amazons and so forth of the world, and then there's everybody else. >> Alright so we've identified an area where we can see some consequence of change where we can anticipate some change will be required to modernize the open source model, the licensing model, we see another one where the open source communities going to have to understand how to move from a product and code to a data and service orientation, can we think of any others? >> There is one other that I'd like to add to that, and that is compliance. You addressed it to some extent, but compliance brings some real-world requirements onto code and data, and you were saying earlier on that one of the options is bringing code and data so that they intermingle and change each other, I wonder whether that when you look at it from a compliance point of view will actually pass muster, because you need from a compliance point of view to prove, for example, in the health service, that it works, and it works the same way every time, and if you've got a set of code and data that doesn't work the same every time, you probably are going to get pushed back from the people who regularly health that this is not, you can't do it that way, you'll have to find another way to do it. But that again is, is at the same each time, so the point I'm making-- >> This is a bigger issue than just open source, this is an issue where the idea if continuous refinement of the code, and the data-- >> Automatic refinement. >> Automatic refinement, could in fact, we're going to have to change some compliance laws, is open source, is it possible the open source community might actually help us understand that problem? >> Absolutely, yes. >> I think that's a good point, I think that's a really interesting point, because you're right George, the idea of a continuous development, is not something that for example Serr Banes actually says I get this, Serr Banes actually says "Oh yeah, I get this." Serr Banes actually is like, yes the data, I acknowledge that this date is right, and I acknowledge the process by which it was created was read, now this is another subject, let's bring this up later, but I think it's relevant here, because in many respects it's a difference between an income statement and balance sheet right? Saying it's good now, is kind of like the income statement, but let's come back to this, because I think it's a bigger issue. You're asserting the open source community in fact may help solve this problem by coming up with new ways of conceiving say versioning of things, and stamping things and what is a distribution, what isn't a distribution, with some of these more tightly bound sets of-- >> What we find normally is that-- >> Jim: I think that we are going to-- >> Peter: Go on Jim. >> Just to elaborate on what Peter was talking about, that whole theme, I think what we're going to see is more open source governance of models and data, within distributed development environments, using technologies like block chain as a core enabler for these workflows, for these as it were general distributed hyper ledgers indicate the latest and greatest version of a given dataset, or a given model being developed somewhere around some common solution domain, I think those kinds of environments for governance will become critically important, as this pipeline for development and training and deployment of these assets, gets ever more distributed and virtual. >> By the way Jim I actually had a conversation with a very large open source distribution company a few months ago about this very point, and I agree, I think blockchain in fact could become a mechanism by which we track intellectual property, track intellectual contributions, find ways to then monetize those contributions, going back to what you were saying David, and perhaps that becomes something that looks like the basis of a new business model, for how we think about how open source goes after these looser, goosier problems. >> But also to guarantee integrity without going through necessarily a central-- >> Very important, very important because at the end of the day George-- >> It's always hard to find somebody to maintain. >> Right, big companies, one of the big challenges that companies today are having is that they do open source is that they want to be able to keep track of their intellectual property, both from a contribution standpoint, but also inside their own business, because they're very, very concerned that the stuff that they're creating that's proprietary to their business in a digital sense, might leave the building, and that's not something a lot of banks for example want to see happen. >> I want to stick one step into this logic process that it think we haven't yet discussed, which is, we're talking about now how end customers will consume this, but there still a disconnect in terms of how the open source software vendor's or even hybrid ones can get to market with this stuff, because between open source pricing models and pricing levels, we've seen a slow motion price collapse, and the problem is that, the new go to market motion is actually made up of many motions, which is discover, learn, try, buy, recommend, and within each of those, the motion was different, and you hear it's almost like a reflex, like when your doctor hit you on the knee and your leg kind of bounced, everybody says yeah we do land and expand, and land was to discover, learn, try augmented with inside sales, the recommend and standardizes still traditional enterprise software where someone's got to talk to IT and procurement about fitting into the broader architecture, and infrastructure of the firm, and to do that you still need what has always been called the most expensive migratory workforce in the world, which is an enterprise sales force. >> But I would suggest there's a big move towards standardization of stacks, true private cloud is about having a stack which is well established, and the relationship between all the different piece parts, and the stack itself is the person who is responsible for putting that stack and maintaining that stack. >> So for a moment pretend that you are a CIO, are you going to buy OpenStack or are you going to buy the Vmware stack? >> I'm going to buy Vmware stack. >> Because that's about open source? >> No, the point I'm saying is that those open source communities or pieces, would then be absorbed into the stack as an OEM supplier as opposed to a direct supplier and I think that's true for all of these stacks, if you look at the stack for example and you have code from Netapp or whatever it is that's in that code and they're contributing It You need an OEM agreement with that provider, and it doesn't necessarily have to be open source. >> Bottom line is this stuff is still really, really complicated. >> But this model of being an OEM provider is very different from growing an enterprise sales force, you're selling something that goes into the cost of goods sold of your customer, and that the cost of goods sold better be less than 15 percent, and preferably less than five percent. >> Your point is if you can't afford a sales force, an OEM agreement is a much better way of doing it. >> You have to get somebody else's sales force to do it for you. So look I'm going to do the Action Item on this, I think that this has been a great conversation again, David, George, Neil, Jim, thanks a lot. So here's the Action Item, nobody argues that open source hasn't been important, and nobody suggests that open source is not going to remain important, what we think based on our conversation today is that open source is going to go through some changes, and those changes will occur as a consequence of new folks that are going to be important to this like data scientists, to some of the new streams of value in the industry, may not have the same motivations that the old developer world had, new types of problems that are inherently more data oriented as opposed process-oriented, and it's not as clear that the whole concept of data as an artifact, data as a convention, data as standards and commodities, are going to be as easy to define as it was in the cold world. As well as ultimately IT organizations increasingly moving towards an approach that focused more on the consumption of services, as opposed to the consumption of product, so for these and many other reasons, our expectation is that the open source community is going to go through its own transformation as it tries to support future digital transformations, current and future digital transformations. Now some of the areas that we think are going to be transformed, is we expect that there's going to be some pressure on licensing, we think there's going to be some pressure in how compliance is handled, and we think the open source community may in fact be able to help in that regard, and we think very importantly that there will be some pressure on the open source community trying to rationalize how it conceives of the new compute models, the new design models, because where open source always has been very successful is when we have a target we can collaborate to replicate and replace that target or provide a substitute. I think we can all agree that in 10 years we will be talking about how open source took some time to in fact put forward that TPC stack, as opposed to define the true private cloud stack. So our expectation is that open source is going to remain relevant, we think it's going to go through some consequential changes, and we look forward to working with our clients to help them navigate what some of those changes are, both as commiters, and also as consumers. Once again guys, thank you very much for this week's Action Item, this is Peter Barris, and until next week thank you very much for participating on Wikibon's Action Item. (slow techno music)

>> Live from Los Angeles, it's theCube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017 brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, live here at Los Angeles, California it's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrier, your host with my co-host Stu Miniman with Wikibon, and our next two guests, Alan Dickenson who is the program director of the blockchain platform at IBM and Shaun Frankson, who's the co-founder and TED speaker at a company called The Plastic Bank doing some truly amazing things with technology for the betterment of society and communities. We'll get this out in a second. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> So two important things honestly. IBM, well-known in the history books that's being written. Real proponent of Linux, they were one of the early guys in during that movement, with a billion dollars in cash. That's a big number. You guys went all in on Linux, good bet, Linux was successful, it's now the standard so congratulations. Now you have the same thing going on with Blockchain. IBM's got the big bet, the company's best brains at work working on blockchain, kind of reminds me of the Linux move back in the day. Pretty impressive. >> Yeah I mean, there's a lot going on with Blockchain and one of the reasons we're here is that this is a developer event. We really want to help accelerate technology adoption and with our platform we launched two weeks ago, we have a whole suite of capabilities that developers can use that's complimentary, that's free and they can use that to go and try blockchain with a Hyperledger Composer and they can experiment and work on blockchain projects. >> You know I love the IBM marketing department, they always have the best commercials. To me I also love the Smarter Planet and I think Shaun, I would like to give you a chance to talk about your amazing project you have going on. Take a minute to explain, you're up on stage here at the event, pretty compelling, great social good, real value. What's some tech behind it. Take a minute to talk about your work. >> At The Plastic Bank we make plastic waste a currency so in developing countries it can be too valuable to enter the ocean. So the mission to use technology to stop ocean plastic. So we create a recycling ecosystems all around the world where people can go out, recycle the plastic that's abundant in the environment, they can earn enough value to provide for their families, send their kids to school and we have this entire ecosystem where we gather the plastic, we have these incentive programs to sort it, recycle, then we actually sell it back to some of the world's largest corporations who can use that recycled social plastic in their products instead of using new plastic. Which means that every single product tells a story of stopping ocean plastic, reducing global poverty and this really allows just a responsible consumer to make a choice that's helping to stop ocean plastic in the end. >> Well great story I just want to drill down because this highlights couple of big trends we've seen in the Internet business as it got into Big Data. And certainly you guys know a lot about that at IBM. The collective intelligence idea of having these self-forming communities, you think of any problem. Recycling plastic, which is not that hard to do, you go to the placement. How do you get it institutionalized? Is the collective intelligence problem. So you got a clever idea to do this but you also have to support it. There's a lot of cost involved so how did you pull this together? What were some of the nuance to keep the incentives, to keep the motivation, to create the payouts. We all recycle our cans for five cents at some points in our lives, I remember when I was in college it helped me a lot. But it's a whole other scale here. Take a minute to talk about the technology. >> For sure. So we're starting in developing countries that essentially have almost no existing waste management systems so we're really starting from the ground and looking at the way of how do we remove the dangers of the cash-based systems, instead have an asset-backed token that we can safely distribute and create new abilities. So really we're dealing with the unbankable who can now for the first time, save and earn through recycling. So it's not really not looking of how do we go back to you know, what's been done in the past, it's how do we take an area and start with the best technology that exists to safely bring in these new systems. >> When you say unbankable, what does that mean? >> I mean sadly, but most of the world does not qualify for a bank account. They don't have the identity, they don't have the credit history, so it's simple concept of how do you save 200 dollars to send your kid to school. You essentially hide it under a mattress and hope that nothing happens in between. But when you can safely have a digital wallet, it's just instant savings. >> Mobile phone penetration is pretty high in these areas, so they might have mobility but no actual institutional credit bank account, am I getting that right? >> Oh exactly. It's amazing when we think there's countries with no power but who have phones. So that means the education of the mobile payments is still there, it's not a foreign concept, but now you can earn the tokens which can then even be converted into mobile payment. Again where recycling is the equal opportunity. >> So are you using the blockchain component, IBM blockchain, or are you guys using a derivatives, what's the tech? >> So we use IBM blockchain, Hyperledger Fabric and LinuxOne and you know it's a system designed to scale around the world without any interruptions and just it's a go big go at home and do it right. >> You mentioned LinuxOne and I believe there's some announcements week around how to secure containers even more and we've been trying LinuxOne, Linux on the mainframe for quite a few years. Give us the update on what's new. >> One of the new things that we're announcing at this year's show is Emperor II. It's a new Linux platform and it's the technology that's underpinning The Plastic Bank's blockchain. The other thing that we're announcing is the beta for Secure Services Containers. Around the globe we have a lot of cases where data is stolen and blockchain's another type of data, we don't want it to get stolen even though there's a lot of encryption in blockchain. We still don't want the data stolen and people trying to get at it. So we have this idea of Secure Service Containers that kind of wraps around the application and protects it from malware, protects it from insiders, can't see it, insider credentials get compromised, goes into the main ways, data gets stolen. You have to do it that way. Even if IBM gets a court order for us to reveal your blockchain data, we can't do it. It's protected and encrypted in this area, and only you have the encryption keys. So the beta for that is something we also announced today. And then two weeks ago we announced the blockchain platform, it's kind of a technology that we put in place to accelerate and help people. >> Security is a huge issue, I mean the ICO marker for instance, remind me of the old stagecoach robberies, right. You literally do like a multimillion dollar ICO, completely a secured, when you're getting your wallet getting snatched, you're getting hijacked, is that something that is related to that? Or is that just a point of the security is still an open book? I mean you can have secure transactions on the blockchain but you still got your wallets out there, so you got to have a wallet strategy. >> Most of the Secure Container technology can be used for any Linux application that you run when it's out of beta. Right now it's in beta. So we're looking for users that want to have a very secure application environment, running on Linux and sign then up for our beta. >> Shaun can you tell us, what led you to this solution? I'm sure security has got to be high on your list, the kind of financial transactions that are involved in it, but I have to say a young small company, mainframe is not the initial thing that we think of. >> Again, the only way to solve the global problems is really go on such a scale that we can have hundreds of millions of pounds provided to the world's largest companies. Which just means it's got to be large scale, no interruptions and for us, trust is the biggest thing. Investor trust, client trust, and just even everyone's trust that not only the financial side, but you know we're delivering a promise of social good, environmental justice, that if we get an irrefutable trust that it's just the right system, and to me, blockchain's a trust stamp, IBM's a trust stamp, LinuxOne is a trust stamp that just it's the right way to do it on a global scale. And for us it was global was the only way to go. >> And now of course, the supply chain is a channel that you're dealing with that blockchain is a good fit for. A lot of these early use cases, their supply chain like, well you got to keep track of a lot of moving parts and who's contributing to what. >> You can have a digital token that represents the physical asset and you can kind of track it through that way and blockchain can keep the information safe and documented so that you don't lose track of the value. >> Well we're super excited. As you know, we're looking at blockchain for our audience and our world, so it's interesting, a lot of the blockchain, certainly people see the hype and the scams out there and the ICO stuff, which is natural, they're early market, the underbelly kind of shows itself, we've seen that movie before. But, here's the thing that I've never seen in my career ever. Very often, when you have alpha geeks getting super excited, we're talking CTOs, really strong technical people, and A plus entrepreneurs, they're salivating at the blockchain opportunity because they're the canaries in the coal mines in my opinion on disruption opportunities. You seeing use cases where I can solve that problem, people with passion are going after these new opportunities that were ungettable before because you'd have to roll out this complex software product, all these costs to get started. Same pattern. >> We're seeing a lot of technology people get excited about it. But they understand the technology relatively quickly and they can get it. What seems to be slowing down a lot of blockchain adoption is more the linkages with other organizations because when you're exchanging value, you're passing it between one organization and another, and another and a value chain. And getting that value chain where you can articulate who it is, and codifying the ways that you work with the people in the value chain and create a smart contract around that, that's what we see slowing down the progress of blockchain. >> We had Brian Behlendorf on yesterday, he runs the SmartLedger project for the group and we talked about decentralizations versus distributive, we all know what distributive computing is, we've seen that. But now with decentralizations, he had a good quote, he said, minimum viable decentralization and 'cause if people think that you have to have a completely decentralized environment which I thought was a really good observation. >> I agree, I heard him say that and it reminded me of one of the steps we see in blockchain progression is we have to get a minimum viable ecosystem together. We see people sometimes biting off too big of a problem and one thing I like about The Plastic Bank's approach is that they try to get it working right somewhere first and then scale from there. And then the same thing with blockchain. You have to get your ecosystem defined, you have to get that working and then expand from there. And that's one of the things that we've designed into our blockchain platform, is the ability to govern a group of folks that are trying to exchange value and then also how to operate a blockchain once it's exchanging value with a group of folks. Things like, lets say you have a new version of Hyperledger Fabric, you want to take down your blockchain that's operating while you install the new version, but we've made sure that you can do that in a smooth way that keeps on running. >> You know Alan, that is a super smart observation. I hundred percent agree with you. I've always said this, and Stu and I and Dave, we talked about this. Blockchain is a community win. The community could win this together as the community participants increase in that kind of philosophy, the value increases. If it's a winner take all, it doesn't work, clearly. So what do you guys with the ecosystem? That's a good question. Are you guys investing in the ecosystem? Can you give some examples. Obviously you're supporting great projects. >> We've built a lot of technology but one of the things that is unique about IBM's approach to blockchain is the governance tools that we've created to help manage the ecosystem. We're the only blockchain partner out there right now that has these kind of ecosystem partner tools that can kind of speed the creation of bringing multi parties together and helping them think through how they should govern the creation and then also the operation of the blockchain. What if you want to add a few more members after your blockchain is running? That's a technology problem, but it's also a business problem. And will your blockchain keep running? >> Well we'll keep in touch, we definitely want to do a lot more coverage on what you guys are doing. I think it's instrumental, we're doing a lot of coverage as well on the ICO side, tracking that business side of it, but down on the enterprise it's a lot of activity coming and I think Accenture is going to do very well. Shaun, get back to you for a second. Want to ask you a quick question. On a personal note, what has been a learning from your process? You're doing, what seems to be probably an exciting and intoxicating job where you're making social good happen, using some tech. I mean, it's a cool project. Assuming there's been some bumps along the road like any other entrepreneurial venture. What are some of the learnings you've taken away from where you are today, where you've come from and what you achieved? What are some personal learnings? >> I think really the two biggest things is one, especially coming from just a entrepreneurial nature, it's not what you know, it's what you can figure out. There's always a how. And for us, when it was when you come up with such a giant idea and you just know where it's going and where it can go past there. Mentally just becoming the person capable of achieving what you are trying to achieve as compared to getting caught up on all the things you don't know, I mean the more you know, the more you know how much you don't know and it's really just getting inspired by the fact that whatever the next answer, whatever the next hiccup, whatever the next how, we'll figure it out. I might now know the answer, but I'm committed to figuring it out and committed to becoming the person capable of figuring it out. And you know it's a journey and process and an inspiring journey to be on. >> You got to dream the future to create it. What you're saying is it's a growth mindset, I love that growth mindset, say hey we're going to go after it, we're going to see some things and have to figure it out, that's a great mindset. Versus nervousness and insecurity. Good job, well done. Well congratulations on your success and thanks for coming on theCUBE, we really appreciate it. Alan, we look forward to chatting with you in the future and talking blockchain. IBM here on theCUBE with the great projects they're doing on blockchain and also they had an announcement a couple weeks ago around some really cutting edge value around food distribution and value chain so again, Smarter Planet, I know you guys do a lot of investments early on but congratulations, and continued success Shaun. Live coverage here from the Open Source Summit in Los Angeles, California. It's theCube, I'm John Furrier, Stu Minniman, be right back with more after this short break.

(Upbeat Music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and The Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, California for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrrier, with my co-star Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Patrick Chanezan, who is a member of the technical docker, also on the governing board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF, which is the hottest part of the open-source community right now. It's very fast, we're very trendy, a lot of people are on the bandwagon, a lot of contribution going on. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Hey, thanks, John and Stu, it's very good to be back on theCUBE. >> Docker's been just a great company to follow since the beginning, the birth of Docker to the transformation from Dark Cloud to Docker. It's just a great team. We have a lot of respect for you guys. Congratulations. But the CNCF right now is the hottest thing, there's more platinum sponsors than I think maybe members. It seems to be very hot. Industry loves it, developer is going crazy about it, why is CNCF so hot? What's your perspective on that? >> What we're seeing right now is really the realization of adoption of containers, we talked about it two years ago. It was very early, and people were starting to use Docker and just covering containers. Today they're really putting them into production, and what we see at Docker with our customer base is that they are using it more and more to modernize traditional applications. So we see tremendous use of containers everywhere in enterprises, and the rise of CNCF is tied to that, I think. We're seeing more and more developers joining the bandwagon, more and more systems being built based on containers. And at Docker, we're playing a big role into that. >> Patrick, for a couple years, the chant was Docker, Docker, Docker, and sometimes people say, "Cubernetti's is where the hotness is." Well underneath that, there's containers. And a lot of those containers, Docker's involved there. Maybe you can help us understand the nuance a little bit as the Cubernetti's wave has grown, sure there was the Mezos, Docker Swarm, Cubernetti's war, if you will there, but what does this mean for Docker? What are you seeing from your customers? Give us the update on Docker itself. We'll probably need to get into the Mobi stuff, too, as we get into the interview. >> Sure, definitely. That's a big question, so let's start with the beginning. When enterprises adopt containers, what happens is that usually it starts with the wrappers who are adopting containers with Docker. So they download Docker for their Windows machine, or for their Mac, or on Linux, they start modernizing their applications. What we see is more and more enterprising wrappers, modernizing existing applications by Dockerizing them, and then the next step is that they want to put that into production. For that, you need the whole system. So at Docker, we have two systems. We have Docker C and Docker E, our enterprise version that has role-based controlled sequencing and all that good stuff. There are lots of different components that you need in order to have a production container system, and so Cuberneris, the orchestration engine is one piece of that. At Docker, we have swarm kits. But there are lots of other different components and lots of different layers to that system. So you have the infrastructure layer that you are using to deploy that inside the firewall or in different cloud providers. Many different solutions there. At Docker, we have one that's called infrakit, that we're using in our additions, to deploy it everywhere. Then on top of that, you need some version of Linux. At Docker Con in April, we released a project called Linuxkit, which helps you do that. On top of that, you need a container run-time. Traditionally, it's been Docker. Right now, we re-factored the Docker codebase to extract a core run-time component that's called container G, which we donated to CNCF. Container G is nearing one or better, so it would be one of them pretty soon. Then, on top of that, you need an orchestration engine. Docker E comes with its own orchestration based on swarm, Cuberneris is another orchestration engine that people like. Cuberneris, behind the scenes, is using Docker, and right now we are working very closely with theCUBE rneris community to implement CRI container G. So CRI is the container run-time interface in Cuberneris that lets you plug in different engines to plug container G in the place of Docker in there. >> Stu: There's a lot of pieces in here. We had too many interviews yesterday talking about the Open Container Initiative, or OCI, which really made sure we've got the 1.0 version of that done. What container format, seems like we're in agreement. We're not fighting over that kind of piece anymore. From the Cubernetti's community, I heard loud and clear, they're like, we've got container D. We've kind of got what we want. We're happy it's open-sourced. We're going. We were at Docker Con when you annouced Mobi, which is kind of open-source, and it felt like we were still trying to figure out all those pieces. Give us the update as to Mobi, you're talking at the open source show, you talk a little bit about CE and EE being the productized versions, but part of it is what we used to think of as Docker is now Mobi, and the company Docker versus the project. You kind of teased those apart a little bit, right? >> Yes. Exactly. And actually, that's what I came here at the Open Summit to talk about, to give people an update on the Mobi project. So what we announced back in April was the launch of the Mobi project, which is the end of a two year re-factoring of the Docker codebase into different components. So all these components on the stack that I told you about, we just tease them out from the Docker codebase so that it's a modular set of components that you can assemble together. Mobi is three things. It's an open source project where people can collaborate in container-based systems. It's also a tool that we're using to assemble our components into Mobi Corp, which is the upstream of Docker products. Then it's also a set of lots of components, like container G, Linux, Infrakit, Notary, and all the projects I talked about. One other thing we've started doing since April as well is we started proposing to donate some of these container projects to CNCF. So container G is already part of CNCF now. Recently, this summer, we proposed Infrakit, and they think it's a little bit too early for donation, because they want to see other, different projects in there. Right now we're in the process of donating and proposing Notary, so there's an active discussion in there, and I hope that the vote will happen probably next week or something like that. So Notary is the component that we're using for Docker, and we think that this could be used in lots of different Cloud Native systems, so it really has its place in the CNCF. >> So identity component for the container management, or what specifically is that going to address? >> So Notary is the piece that we're using in Docker Con Contrast to make sure that you can trust the images that you've built. A signed signature should be able to revoke all the signatures, all the kind of features that our customers love in Docker E. >> John: It's kind of like Stu and me on Twitter, he's verified, I'm not. But this is important, because now, this is a stamp of approval, if you will, that the community can look to. >> Yeah, definitely. So it's something that we implement in Docker, and now people building other containment systems who will be able to use it. And so Mobi saw a lot of traction for its different projects, some of them are going to CNCF, some of them are growing by themselves. On the Docker side, we made some progress prioritizing all that with Docker C and Docker E. We had a 1706 launch of Docker E recently, with lots of new role-based axis control, controls for enterprises, who are adopting it essentially to modernize their traditional apps. >> Take us through a kind of personal question. You were just at a board meeting with the CNCF. Did everyone show up or are people calling in? >> I think Alexi Richardson was the only one, maybe two people on the phone. >> John: Was Sam Redjay there? >> Sam was not there either, but Epona was standing for him. So the room was full, and to me it's really an impressive achievement, two years after we helped start the CNCF. The first meetings were 10, 15 people at Google deciding to create this foundation, and today, maybe we're twenty or thirty people around the table. An\d everybody-- >> Even before that Google meeting, we were covering theCUBE Con Cubernettis' movement early on from your event. So I think, out of Docker Con and some of the Linux Foundation events, the early momentum, we were there, Stu. Then it became the CNCF, and they decided, hey, let's get the Cloud Native Foundation. So it's interesting to me, seeing the growth from the beginning. And it's unique to have that opportunity to be in the front lines of an organically developing group. It wasn't really build the table and come, this was a realization. >> It was a realization and also a concerted effort to build something together to show customers where the containment systems were going in terms of architecture-- >> What were the factors beside, I mean Docker was big driver. Notably, you should get the credit for pioneering the space. But what were the drivers for this coalescing, this call to arms, if you will, or this organic formation of CNCF. What were the key drivers in your mind. Obviously, containers is one. What are the other ones? >> Yeah, to me, containers is a big one, because when you are starting to design your system with containers in mind, you need to change lots of things, how you're building them and things like that. And how you are architecting things together. There were lots of questions about how you do the balancing in that kind of system, how do you do monitoring, how do you do tracing. The CNCF was assembled so that all these components have a place where we can show our inter-repairability between them. So Docker is part of that, Mezos is part of that, as well as Cuberneris. There's a big inter-repairability work that's happening in there. We had a report in the board meeting today about the new CI Initiative that tests different CNCF projects together. >> John: What CI? >> Sorry, continuous integration. >> John: Got it, yeah. >> So there's the continuous integration-- >> John: Not conversion infrastructure. >> Oh, you're right, yeah. >> We always get acronym-ed up. But Chris Anazik was talking yesterday about the graduation path, still waiting to see something graduate from the process. What's going to graduate first? Any bets, what's the betting, what betting is going on? Do you guys actually make bets? Is there a fantasy drafting going on? >> I don't think that really matters, what matters is really adoption of the components. >> Okay, so what's happening on the graduation scale? What's coming out of the woodworks? What's next? What's going to graduate first? >> So one thing I'm curious about is whether Container G will graduate, because it's kind of mature now, it's reaching 1-0 with the CRI and soon integration in Docker, it may be a good candidate for graduation. For the others, I don't know which ones would be first into the graduation process. >> Well, we know it's a high bar, for sure. >> Patrick, the stuff that's getting mature. What about some of the roadmap there? From Docker and CNCF, something like serverless containers, first generation, are going to be important. We had too many interviews this week talking about, today, many of the containers we'll see in the future where serverless and open Faz and things like that go. So how does that all fit in? Can you give us a Docker and a CNCF view on that? >> Let's talk about the CNCF view first. CNCF is working on lots of different areas where there needs to be more definition about what Cloud Native means for storage, for example, with the CSI Initiative, container storage interface, CNI, container networking interface, and then there's the working group for CI, which is about integrating all these projects together, but the working group I'm most interested in is the serverless one. So we have a Docker rep at the serverless working group, and there we're trying to define what a portable, serverless stack looks like. And at Docker, we're naturally interested in this -- >> Of course, Serverless is a beautiful thing. >> Most of these projects are running on top of Docker, so open Faz for people-- >> I got to ask you, Patrick, because we love serverless, I have a love/hate relationship with the word serverless because technically it's a beautiful thing, but there's servers involved. I'm an old-school, so I kind of look at it differently. The younger generation, they want infrastructure as code. This is a clear obvious thing. It was once a dream, but now it's become a reality. What's your position on that? Where is it on the progress bar? How close are we to serverless? >> I'd say there's an initial adoption of serverless on one of the few stacks that exist out there today. So you have the hosted services, the Faz services, from Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, where I'm more interested, and I think customers are kind of looking for that, is a portable way of doing that. For example, in studying that on top of Docker platforms, so that's what projects like Open Faz is doing. Right now, I think we're really in the stage of discussions with CNCF of what a portable service layer would look like so that you could focus on your code, but be able to deploy on Prim, on top of Docker, or in different cloud providers. So that portability aspect to me is very important there. And I think it's important for customers as well. To me, also, I'm an old timer as well, I used to pitch a platform as a service at the beginning of it, Google App Engine, many years ago. To me, it's kind of a feeling of deja vu. We're kind of re-inventing that, but with containers and in a much more portable way. >> The beautiful thing about being an old-timer is we get to look back and, not so much to the young kids, get off my lawn, we had to walk to school with bare feet in the snow, build our own libraries. I was just talking to Eilene, she's like, "Oh, my low-level class was C and my high-level class was Python." I'm like, "Our low-level class was machine code "and high-level wasn't even C yet." >> Yesterday, at the party, I was discussing with one of the IBM engineers, who's working on Linux and containers on mainframe, and we were talking about GCL, and that's the type of feeling that we got. Like we're getting higher up in the stack, and I think for modern developers, it really helped them-- >> It's a beautiful thing right now. Just think about the young guns that are coming up. This is a beautiful library of options now. 90% of the code is leverage-able. That's like unbelievable. So it really allows the creativity of the developer to be a lot more about structural engineering code-base rather than just being very creative on the 10-20% of real intellectual property that they can bring to the table. >> I would add something, it's really about creating value, as opposed to building infrastructure. When we're getting up the stack, and serverless is an example of that, it's really about creating value for enterprises, and that's what these wrappers are about. >> When you start dreaming in code, you know you're doing good. Patrick, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, and congratulations on all the success with CNCF, and certainty Docker. You guys continue to impress and do a great job. I know there's some changes over there we're looking for, some of the cool stuff graduating out of CNCF, more Docker container goodness from you guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. We appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, we're live in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America coverage with theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman back with more after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Lennox Foundation and Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with my co-host, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Elaine Yeung, @egsy on Twitter, check her out. Student at Holberton School? >> At Holberton School. >> Holberton School. >> And that's in San Francisco? >> I'm like reffing the school right here. (laughs) >> Looking good. You look great, so. Open Source is a new generation. It's going to go from 64 million libraries to 400 million by 2026. New developers are coming in. It's a whole new vibe. >> Elaine: Right. >> What's your take on this, looking at this industry right now? Looking at all this old, the old guard, the new guard's coming in, a lot of cool things happening. Apple's new ARKit was announced today. You saw VR and ARs booming, multimedia. >> Elaine: Got that newer home button. Right, like I-- >> It's just killer stuff happening. >> Stu: (laughs) >> I mean, one of the reason why I wanted to go into tech, and this is why I, like, when I told them that I applied to Holberton School, was that I really think at whatever next social revolution we have, technology is going to be somehow interval to it. It's probably not even, like, an existing technology right now. And, as someone who's just, like, social justice-minded, I wanted to be able to contribute in that way, so. >> John: Yeah. >> And develop a skillset that way. >> Well, we saw the keynote, Christine Corbett Moran, was talking really hardcore about code driving culture. This is happening. >> Elaine: Right. So this is not, like, you know, maybe going to happen, we're starting to see it. We're starting to see the culture being shaped by code. And notions of ruling classes and elites potentially becoming democratized 100% because now software, the guys and gals doing it are acting on it and they have a mindset-- >> Elaine: Right. >> That come from a community. So this is interesting dynamic. As you look at that, do you think that's closer to reality? Where in your mind's eye do you see it? 'Cause you're in the front lines. You're young, a student, you're immersed in that, in all the action. I wish I was in your position and all these great AI libraries. You got TensorFlow from Google, you have all this goodness-- >> Elaine: Right. >> Kind of coming in, I mean-- >> So you're, so let me make sure I am hearing your question right. So, you're asking, like, how do I feel about the democratization of, like, educ-- >> John: Yeah, yeah. Do you feel it? Are you there? Is it happening faster? >> Well, I mean, things are happening faster. I mean, I didn't have any idea of, like, how to use a terminal before January. I didn't know, like, I didn't know my way around Lennox or GitHub, or how to push a commit, (laughs) until I started at Holberton School, so. In that sense, I'm actually experiencing this democratization of-- >> John: Yeah. >> Of education. The whole, like, reason I'm able to go to this school is because they actually invest in the students first, and we don't have to pay tuition when we enroll. It's only after we are hired or actually, until we have a job, and then we do an income-share agreement. So, like, it's really-- >> John: That's cool. >> It's really cool to have, like, a school where they're basically saying, like, "We trust in the education that we're going to give you "so strongly that you're not going to pay up front. >> John: Yeah. >> "Because we know you're going to get a solid job and "you'll pay us at that point-- >> John: Takes a lot of pressure off, too. >> Yeah. >> John: 'Cause then you don't have to worry about that overhang. >> Exactly! I wrote about that in my essay as well. Yeah, just, like because who wants to, like, worry about student debt, like, while you're studying? So, now I can fully focus on learning C, learning Python (laughs) (mumbles) and stuff. >> Alright, what's the coolest thing that you've done, that's cool, that you've gotten, like, motivated on 'cause you're getting your hands dirty, you get the addiction. >> Stu: (laughs) >> Take us through the day in the life of like, "Wow, this is a killer." >> Elaine: I don't know. Normally, (laughs) I'm just kind of a cool person, so I feel like everything I-- no, no. (laughs) >> John: That's a good, that's the best answer we heard. >> (laughs) Okay, so we had a battle, a rap battle, at my school of programming languages. And so, I wrote a rap about Bash scripts and (laughs) that is somewhere on the internet. And, I'm pretty sure that's, like, one of the coolest things. And actually, coming out here, one of my school leaders, Sylvain, he told me, he was like, "You should actually put that, "like, pretty, like, front and center on your "like, LinkedIn." Or whatever, my profile. And what was cool, was when I meet Linus yesterday, someone who had seen my rap was there and it's almost like it was, like, set up because he was like, "Oh, are you the one "that was rapping Bash?" And, I was like, "Well, why yes, that was me." (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> And then Linus said it was like, what did he say? He was like, "Oh, that's like Weird Al level." Like, just the fact that I would make up a rap about Bash Scripts. (laughs) >> John: That's so cool. So, is that on your Twitter handle? Can we find that on your Twitter handle? >> Yes, you can. I will-- >> Okay, E-G-S-Y. >> Yes. >> So, Elaine, you won an award to be able to come to this show. What's your take been on the show so far? What was exciting about you? And, what's your experience been so far? >> To come to the Summit. >> Stu: Yeah. >> Well, so, when I was in education as a dean, we did a lot of backwards planning. And so, I think for me, like, that's just sort of (claps hands). I was looking into the future, and I knew that in October I would need to, like, start looking for an internship. And so, one of my hopes coming out here was that I would be able to expand my network. And so, like that has been already, like that has happened like more than I even expected in terms of being able to meet new people, come out here and just, like, learn new things, but also just like hear from all these, everyone's experience in the industry. Everyone's been just super awesome (laughs) and super positive here. >> Yeah. We usually find, especially at the Open Source shows, almost everyone's hiring. You know, there's huge demand for software developers. Maybe tell us a little bit about Holberton school, you know, and how they're helping, you know, ramp people up and be ready for kind of this world? >> Yeah. So, it's a two-year higher education alternative, and it is nine months of programming. So, we do, and that's split up into three months low-level, so we actually we did C, where we, you know, programmed our own shell, we programmed printf. Then after that we followed with high-levels. So we studied Python, and now we're in our CIS Admin track. So we're finishing out the last three months. And, like, throughout it there's been a little bit, like, intermix. Like, we did binary trees a couple weeks ago, and so that was back in C. And so, I love it when they're, like, throwing, like, C at us when we've been doing Python for a couple weeks, and I'm like, "Dammit, I have to put semicolons (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> "And start compiling. "Why do we have to compile this?" Oh, anyway, so, offtrack. Okay, so after those nine months, and then it's a six month internship, and after that it's nine months of specialization. And so there's different spec-- you can specialize in high-level, low-level, they'll work with you in whatever you, whatever the student, their interests are in. And you can do that either full-time student or do it part-time. Which most of the students that are in the first batch that started in January 2016, they're, most of them are, like, still working, are still working, and then they're doing their nine month specialization as, like, part-time students. >> Final question for you, Elaine. Share your personal thoughts on, as you're immersed in the coding and learning, you see the community, you meet some great people here, network expanding, what are you excited about going forward? As you look out there, as you finish it up and getting involved, what's exciting to you in the world ahead of you? What do you think you're going to jump into? What's popping out and revealing itself to you? >> I think coming to the conference and hearing Jim speak about just how diversity is important and also hearing from multiple speakers and sessions about the importance of collaboration and contributions, I just feel like Lennox and Open Source, this whole movement is just a really, it's a step in the right direction, I believe. And it's just, I think the recognition that by being diverse that we are going to be stronger for it, that is super exciting to me. >> John: Yeah. >> Yeah, and I just hope to be able to-- >> John: Yeah (mumbles) >> I mean, I know I'm going to be able to add to that soon. (laughs) >> Well, you certainly are. Thanks for coming on The Cube. Congratulations on your success. Thanks for coming, appreciate it. >> Elaine: Thank you, thank you. >> And this is The Cube coverage, live in LA, for Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit, North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation, and the Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Los Angeles, is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit, North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with my cohost, Stu Miniman with Wikibon. Our next guest is Ross Turk, Director of Evangelism at Red Hat. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you again. >> Good to see you. >> So, evangelizing is now going to be super more important as Open Source Summit, formerly called The Linux Con, Linux kernel. So, Linux is really now the foundation. So, now all these new products are emerging, hence the new name Open Source Summit. You guys are in the middle of it. >> Ross: Mm-hmm. >> What's the themes that you guys are pumping out there right now from an evangelist standpoint? Give me the order of operations in terms of priorities. >> Well, gosh, we're trying to tell stories about how people operate infrastructure in today's modern world, right, which is a lot about making sure that, you know, dealing with ephemeral infrastructure, dealing with containerized applications, and that sort of thing. It gives a lot more flexibility to people who are doing modern operations. It's about applications that spill over across multiple machines and doing so in a way that doesn't require a lot of heavy lifting or wiring things up by hand. So, there's this whole modern operations experience thing we talk about, but we also talk about a modern developer experience. What does it mean to build applications today? And, of course, you combine those together it turns into Dev Ops, right. But, the large companies still work in these two separate worlds. But, people are building technology differently than they ever did in the past, and they're deploying it differently than they did in the past. So, there's lots of stories that can come out of that. >> Well, let's start with the story that we love. Stu and I were talking about the server list at the beginning because you have the Dev Ops movement certainly is going mainstream. You're seeing a lot of enterprises looking at that as viable. Now, they're operationalizing it, and they need to have that industrial strength Red Hat, Linux. But, now Kubernetes and Servalist, the younger developers, they just want an infrastructure as code. >> That seems to be a very hot story here, and Kubernetes server list is kind of in the hallway conversations. How do you guys bring that to bear? >> Well, I think that what Red Hat does is we give an operating environment that can sit underneath all of it with Rail and everything else we build that is stable and secure and reliable. And, you need that in order to have all of this chaos happening above it with developers deploying microservices and moving things around, and demands changing and all these other things, you need to have something really stable and reliable underneath that, something that you know can be if the applications and virtual machines and containers aren't long running, what sits underneath of them is long running, and it still needs to be stable and reliable. So, a lot of the work we've been doing for the past 20 years around Linux Engineering, I think, contributes to making this stable environment for a modern developer. >> Yeah, Ross, one of the challenges in scaling is usually I've got to worry things like storage. You know, state is there, you know data gravity is something we need to be concerned about. It's great to say ephemeral and I want everything anywhere, and, I can put it in this cloud or use it in that application, but at the end of the day it's tough to build some of these pieces. How's Red Hat helping there as containerization and scale, how does that fit into kind of this storage discussion moving on? >> It's a real struggle right, because you can talk to people and they say oh, every single one of the microservices held over and they scale out, and all this, and they talk about this really elaborate infrastructure like well, where is all your data being stored? Oh, it's sitting in Oracle, you know, so you find this sort of like dissonance between how data is managed and how applications are managed. At Red Hat, we believe that storage should be another microservice alongside all the other microservices make up and application. So, that's why we put a lot of engineering effort into making things like Ceph and Red Hat Gluster Storage work well alongside Open Shift so that a developer can provision storage as needed without having to go to an ops person, and that when that storage gets provisioned it's in containers alongside other containers that are providing the other things that your application needs. >> Software defined storage was the answer, it's the Holy Grail. We've heard software defined data center. We've been covering this also in the VM world, heard an awful lot about that. But, that still is a key part of the software, and now you have hardware stacks, so IOT and Cloud are opening up these new use cases for enterprises where whoa, we actually kind of didn't test that hardware with that software, so it's kind of interesting dynamic because software defined is still super important. What's your view on software defined storage, in particular, is that an answer, is it stable, what's your thoughts? >> Well, I think it's an answer, but it depends on what the question is, just to be kind of-- >> What is software defined storage? Let's start with that one. >> Well, so, what is software defined storage? Software defined storage is, okay, so I'll say it in more like what it isn't. >> The traditional storage, traditional storage solutions get deployed as appliances, which are vertically integrated hardware and software solutions that are built to do one thing, and to do that one thing well. And, that one thing is to store data. They're kind of like big refrigerator-sized things that you bring into your data center with a forklift and it's a big oepration, and then they provide storage for any number of applications. What software defined storage does is it implements those same services and those same capabilities, but it does it entirely in software. So, instead of being this vertically integrated software, hardware solution, you end up with software that lets you build it on any hardware, and that hardware can be physical hardware so you can build a storage cluster made up of 1,000 bare metal servers, or you could build that same cluster on a thousand VMs inside of a public cloud. So, in making storage no longer a hardware problem, like it used to be, I mean fundamentally it's a hardware problem, you get down bits are stored somewhere, but, the management of storage is no longer a hardware concern, it's a software concern, now, and that means it's a little bit more flexible. You can containerize it. You can deploy it in the public cloud. You can deploy it in VMs. You can deploy it on bare metal. So, that's what software defined storage is doing is it's changing things around, but it requires different skills. >> Come on Ross, I want a storageless environment, can we get on that? >> A storageless environment? Sure, I guess. Storage has become somebody else's problem at that point. >> Absolutely, how about, how is containers changing that whole discussion? You know, it took us like a decade to kind of get storage working in a virtualized environment, networking seems to be really tackling the container piece, storage seems a little further behind, you know, what're you seeing some of the big challenges there and how are we looking to solve that? >> Well, here there's when you look at containers and storage, there are really two things to consider. The first is how do you make storage such that a containerized environment can consume it easily, right. This is what at Red Hat we call container ready. So, we call a storage solution container ready, what it means that your container platform knows how to consume it. Most storage is container ready, all it takes is a Kubernetes volume driver to be container ready, and that's one half of it, and that's really, really important. It's the same kind of thing we had to do with virtualization, making sure every hypervisor could talk to every storage system. Now, we're making sure every container platform can talk to every storage system. That's important, but it's only half the puzzle, 'cause the other half is now that you have storage as a software thing, a distributed software thing, you can actually deploy that storage inside the same containers that you're using, that are driving the demand for that storage. So, it's this kind of weird, you know, snake eating it's own tail thing where you as a developer, let's say I'm deploying an application, I need a database, I need a web server, blah, blah, and a bunch of other things, and I need a scale out storage system, I can deploy that in containers just alongside everything else, and it uses the local storage of each of the container hosts to build that shared storage that then is used to provide services to other containerized applications. So, it's the ability to have storage in containers Which is really strange. We call that container native storage. >> It's interesting the markets going pretty crazy, so if you kind of take the Dev Ops and say assume for a minute infrastructure is programmable. >> Mm-hmm. >> But, then you look at the developer action right now on the App side, we've seen all kinds of new stuff Apple has their announcement today with the new iPhone 8. We've been covering that on siliconangle.com. Forbes has got great stories as well. New AR kit, so augmented reality is a huge deal, virtual reality obviously still hyped up, is still promised, those are going to require new chips. That's going to require consumer behavior change, so, the developers are staring at a different market than worrying about provisioning storage, right. So, but, these are now new pressures. New hardware, new opportunities, as a developer, advocate, and evangelist, and an industry participant, and user, how do you look at that, and how is that impacting the developer market because Androids got good stuff coming down, too, not just Apple, Samsung? >> Ross: Yeah. >> It's all multimedia, I mean. >> Well, what's interesting about AR kit is that if you go just back five years that same capability required a very, very particular type of phone, you know, like the project Tango stuff required all these depth cameras and like connect style stuff to do the AR kit, and Apple was able to solve a lot of that in software just using two cameras, right, and in software. And, I think that's really-- >> John: On a phone? >> On a phone, on a phone no less, and I think what's amazing about that is all of the capabilities that we walk around with in our pocket now were really hard to get a long time ago. >> Well, this is interesting, your point, let's stay on this because this really illustrates the point. AR kit, for example is proving that the iPhone now is smart enough and with software, enough horsepower to do that kind of thing, but that's replicable across all devices now as an IOT device. The Internet of Things is going to be a freight train coming down the tracks, security, endpoint security, whether it's, I mean all kinds of coolness, but yet threats are there. So, software has to do all this, right. So, how's that going to impact the cloud game, your business, you guys you have to move faster on hardening things, be more organic on the innovation side, not business-wise, but technical strategy. >> Well, I think a lot of it is enabling developers to work more quickly and build features more quickly, also, educating developers on the security and privacy ramifications of the things that they build because it's really easy to just go out in front and advance and innovate and forget about all of that stuff. So, it's about changing developer culture so that you consider security and privacy first, as opposed to later. And, also, maybe you want to consider storage as well if you're talking about machine learning or IOT and all of these types of things, you're -- >> Videos, I mean this is video, software rendering. That's a storage nightmare. >> It's all got to live somewhere, and once you put it in that place where it lives, it's really hard to move it. So, this is a thing you want to plan from the very beginning. >> And, I think that's what's cool about AI, too, and self-driving cars it's a consumer, you know, flashy, coolness that can say hey, this is happening. I mean how fast is happening, but the developer is now bringing it to the businesses and say, okay, we don't have an AR virtual reality strategy for our retail, for instance, you potentially could be out of business. So, these are the kind of thoughts that are going at the C-level that now are going into what used to be IT, but all of IT, how do you handle this? This is an architectural question, so your thoughts on that, because that seems to be a conversation we see a lot. Architectural that's going to solve problems today, not foreclose future opportunities. >> Well, it's cultural, too, inside of the company, like everywhere inside of a company there used to be Internet teams in companies, remember. We used to be like oh, go talk to the Internet team because something's wrong with the Web or whatever, now, there's no Internet team, everybody's the Internet team, Every single team in an organization is thinking about how to leverage the Internet to make their job more effective. The same is going to be true for everything that we're talking about, you know. Security, interestingly enough, so many people always thought security was somebody else's problem. but just this week, we were reminded that it's everybody's problem, hundreds of millions of people's problem, security. So, I think that as these things kind of advance-- >> John: Security first, and privacy first is critical. >> It is absolutely critical, and there used to be, I mean, I think at some point maybe there won't be a security team inside of a company because everybody's going to be the security team, but it's like everybody's the Internet team now, and I always felt the same way about open source communities. I thought there would never, you know, always everybody-- >> Well, people are ruling their own security now. You have these LifeLock or whatever they call them, these services for a password protection because you can't trust even all these databases that are out there. You have block chain with immutability, yeah, certainly the wallets are not yet, but I mean certainly this is where it might be a future scenario. >> Yeah, and I think for all of these things agility is going to be key. The ability to go down a path a certain distance and realize whoa I've run into a privacy problem, back up a little bit, continue down another path. I think that the faster we can make the development process, I think the less risky we make going into all these new frontiers. >> Yeah, Ross, one of the things we've really liked watching the last kind of five years or so is storage turning into a discussion of data and how can we leverage that data, real-time data, you know, decisions at the edge, analytics, what's exciting you the most about kind of the storage world these days? >> Oh boy. Well, you know, I just spent about five years in the storage infrastructure world, so a lot of what kind of kept me going day and night was saving people money, making things faster, making things easier, but also, giving storage platforms that were elastic enough to handle all of this really interesting stuff that happens on top of them. So, there's all kinds of new big data stacks that I find particularly interesting, a lot of the real time analysis stuff like Apache Spark and things like that. There's so much going into visualization right now, as well, how you handle large amounts of time series data and that sort of thing. There's been a lot of advancements in exactly that. Personally, I'm really excited lately in all the data of this stuff, all the ways you can extract meaning from all this data, you know, the ways that you can give it a business context that allows you to make better decisions with it. >> Not a lot of data conversations here at this conference as is open source software, but I mean data I mean I've said and I wrote a blog post in 2008 Dave always, Dave Olantho always jokes with me because I always reference it, I said data is the new development kit, meaning data is going to be part of the software development model, and it actually is with big data, but, you're not hearing a lot of it here because most people are talking about their communities, their projects, but the role of data is fundamental at the edge. >> Ross: Absolutely. >> And, so, how is that going to change some of these conversations and can data be developed on, and is data now part of the software development life cycle that's coming to fruition in the new way. >> Interesting, I think that's an interesting observation that as we see sort of Dev and Ops coming together, right, the world of the operator and the world of the developer coming together, I think we'll probably, at some point, see the world of the developer come together with the world of the data scientist because as I kind of wrack my brain I'm thinking okay, what type of future developer wouldn't have to be dealing with large amounts of data wouldn't have to have that kind of skill to be able to deal with it. So, I think we're going to start to see more software developers getting more involved in big data, machine learning, data analytics, and things like that for sure. >> Well, either way, this open source growth that's coming is going to be exponential. Data is already there. I mean we have a joke in our office software is eating the world as Mark Andreasen would say years ago, but, data is eating software. So, in terms of how you look at it someone's eating somebody, but, this becomes interesting for the IOT developer, or the industrial developer. Those systems were never connected to IT in the past. It was like they ran their own stuff from their own terminals. >> And, there's this idea that everybody's heard that data has gravity, right. And, I actually was talking to somebody about this and they said, well, actually the data has inertia, and I'm like, no, that's not really it 'cause once it's moving it's not hard to stop it. The idea that data has gravity means that let's say I'm putting together this new IOT application, or whatever, I'm gathering data from a bunch of sensors or whatever, and I've got the data in that place. Now, having all that data in that place is more meaningful to me than most of the software that I wrote. You know, it's like that is the value, the kernel of the data is there, and data having gravity means that it's hard to move once it's in a certain place, but, it also means that it attracts workloads to it, right. So, it used to be that software was king, and software created data and managed data, and now data is king, and it brings software to it, I think. >> I totally agree with you, and I think they might even call this the open data summit soon, but it's beyond open source. Now, this is going to be great. They work hand in hand. Software and data are going to be great. Stu what's your thoughts on the role that data's not being talked much here? >> Yeah, John at Amazon weighed in last year. When we talked to Andy Jassy it was the customers were the flywheel, and I think data's going to be that next flywheel of really feeding into that data gravity discussion that you were having, Ross. You know, when Hadoop came out it was like oh, we're going to bring the code to the data. Well, we know if I'm going to have more data I'm going to have my data sources, I'm going to have third party data sources that I want to be able to work and interact with those, so, data absolutely huge opportunities there, and the companies that can leverage that and get more value out of it is going to be a-- >> Well, we already see it's a competitive advantage, no doubt, but it's the privacy issue still the big debate like we know in our immediate businesses. Look at Facebook, I've got a free App I get to see all my friends' photos, their vacations, everyone's living a great life on Facebook, but, then all of a sudden I give my data away for free for the privilege to use that App, but all the sudden they start injecting fake news at me. I don't want that anymore, and you're still making money off of my data, so that's interesting. Facebook makes money off of my data. >> Yeah, that's-- >> That's my contract with them. >> Yeah, If you ask what their asset is, one person might think it's traffic, you know, or eyeballs, but, I think it's data. >> So, they're using data, I might not like it, so that might be an opportunity for somebody else so your point Stu, so if you start thinking about it differently, data decisions are going to be an architectural challenge. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think enterprise architecture thinking, even today, you're seeing enterprise architects thinking more and more and more about data than they have in the past. >> Ross, what do you think about the show, final word in the segment, what's going on Open Source Summit, share with the folks that are watching? >> The vibe here, it's now a new name, but it's still the same game, multiple events come together. >> Yeah, multiple events together. I like Open Source Summit as a name. I think it's a good name. It's properly named for what's going on here. It's been an interesting experience for me because I've been in this community for a really long time. So, I come here and I run into all kinds of old friends, the hallway track's always a good track for me. The content is fantastic, but the hallway track is always really good, and I can't think of anywhere else where you can go and get this selection of people, right. You have people who're working on all layers of the problem, and they can all come together and talk. So, I don't know-- >> It's really a cross-fertilization, cross-pollination, whatever word you want to use. I think this event's going to be in the 30,000 pretty quickly. I mean this is going to be. Well, if you look at the growth, the numbers, you know, presented on stage, Jim Zemlon, was pointing out the growth, by 2026, 400 million libraries. I mean people still think that's underestimated. >> Yeah. >> So, that's a lot of growth. >> I think it could get there, and I think these folks organize great shows, so I look forward to seeing them scale up to 30,000. >> Ross, thanks for your commentary, appreciate the perspective, and the insight here on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. This is theCUBE live coverage from Open Source Summit, North America. I'm John, for Stu Miniman, back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(quiet jazz) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. (upbeat techno music) >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, live in Los Angeles to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit in North America, I'm John Furrier. My cohost, Steve Miniman. Our next guest is Jono Bacon, who is the founder of Jono Bacon Consulting in the community. A great talk here-- >> Jono: Thank you. >> at Open Source Summit. Great to see you. >> Yeah, thank you for having me on. >> Congratulation on all your recent success, on the personal and business side. Congratulations, great to see you. So, bottom line, Open Source Summit is kind of powered by the Linux Foundation, but pretty significant accomplishment and State of the Union, if you will, calling an Open Source Summit, big tent event. What's your view on this? How do you explain to folks watching? Is this a new event, is it a combination of multiple events, certainly a great, great big tent, >> Jono: Yeah. >> cross pollination. Whatever you want to call it. But what is this event about? Share your opinion. >> I think it's interesting, and I don't work for the Linux Foundation, but I've worked very closely with them for a number of years. And I think what we've been seeing is that in the earlier days of open source, there was, you know, the Linux foundation have played a fairly key role in certain specific areas. And in recent years, they've become a real center of gravity around open source in a variety of different areas, from automotive to cloud and beyond. And obviously there's a ton of events that are happening all over the world. And the open source thing I think is interesting because it's really an umbrella event that's got four other events that are part of it. So the event that I was running, which we launched this time around, was the Open Community Conference, which is kind of like one thread of this broader event. So one of the things I like about it is is different events from my experience draw different types of audiences. The Linux Foundation events have traditionally brought a lot of professionals who work in the industry. In a similar way, that happens at OSCON as well. But I like that the events kind of become a little bit more organized and diversified into those four areas. And I think what happens then is you get a greater bandwidth of content and discussions that go with that. >> I think it's an interesting point of these other streams, if you will, kind of going into the big tent event. It's got an ecosystem vibe to it, cause you don't want to lose the specialty of the topics and interest at the events that matter for the audiences on a content basis and face-to-face communications. But it's interesting that they're taking this approach because, when you look at it, the scale that's coming, in open source generally, categorically, if you put all of the code together, it's exponentially growing. >> Jono: Oh, yeah. >> So, there's a flood coming, there's a big open source flood of code coming. So, I think it's time to think architecturally about the dams and the rivers and the flows. To your point, this is a super important point in history. >> Oh, it's without question. And one of the things that's interesting to me is in my work as a consultant, when I help companies to build communities, it's broken into a few different layers. For example, so one is a technology layer, like which of the lego bricks that you're going to choose to put together, and how do you click them together in different ways? And that's where I think the LF has become a real center of gravity around what those projects are and how to integrate. But the other thing that we're starting to see more and more of is the formalization of the software development lifecycle, which is, it's not nearly just writing code anymore. It's about automated testing and continuous delivery and deployment, and all these different pieces. So I think we're seeing a formalization of the Lego bricks, but also the instructions for how you click them together. And that's really important if we're going to broaden out this bubble. Because this is a bubble that we're in right now. This is full of invariably tech companies talking about technology. But when we get into the bigger enterprises, when we get into non-tech into the-- >> John: Blocking and tackling, the realities are there. >> And there is so much nuance wrapped up in open source that it's alien to the people outside of this world, that we need to build that better interface for that. >> And that's just putting some hardening around either software or process that there's some comfort and reliability to the users. >> I'll give you one example. Like one company that I was working with, who were a large hardware company, fairly unfamiliar with open source. And one of the first questions they asked me was, "What does success look like? We know what all these options are, we see all the things that people are talking about, but we don't know how to determine what success is." And I think even just that, it seems like an obvious thing to the people in this room, but it's not obvious to a lot of people who are new to consumer technology this way. >> They want to see a finish line or some KPI that's says, we're done! >> Jono: Exactly! >> Shipped! >> And also because this is technology that's built by a broad diverse community of people, you then, a lot of these organizations then say, "So, what is my expected social responsibility here?" So, like how do I participate in this world that I'm broadly unfamiliar with? To me it's like a hip hop guy who's trying to join a metal band. You know? (John laughs) It works differently. >> It's completely different genres of developers and also environments. So, what's your advice to customers? Because they have to navigate because the mainstream adoption of Linux, obviously, and now new projects as they graduate or come to fruition will be deployed. So there is an ops, the DevOps certainly is a movement we're seeing, we can agree on. But now I got to put it into production. I'm a bank or I'm an enterprise. Hey, I got some guys that are monitoring. We're not that active, but we're happy to use it, be a user. How do you talk to that customer? >> Jono: Right. >> The way which I try to approach it is is to break it into a few different areas. The first thing is to first of all make sure that everybody's got the same sense of what the problem is that you want to solve. One of the things that was most transformative to me when I started consulting was it's amazing how many people think they're solving the same problem, but they're actually on a completely different grade of the same problem. So to me, what I like to do, is I like to define what I call a set of key themes which are these are the big rocks that we want to target in a time frame, six months or a year, or whatever it might be. Particularly with, when you're either doing community strategy or development, or you're doing a level of open source, it's fundamentally cross-functional. It involves marketing, engineering, product, there are executive stakeholder requirements, and then there's the people on the ground who are delivering those, so getting those themes in place I think is critical. But then to me what's important next, is to break a broader strategy down into smaller, consumable pieces. I think one of the things where a lot of companies get stuck is they're aware of these different Lego bricks that are available to them. They're aware of some optimizations in terms of workflow, but it's such a huge thing to bring into an organization that invariable is already got a very, very, stodgy or very specific culture that they've got to somewhat unseat. So to me, you need that combination of permissive, top-down approach, which is invariably your exec saying we see value in this, but then you need to break the strategy and the execution down into smaller manageable pieces that a team can wrap their head around. >> We talked to the Cisco guy, Ed, and he was, we were talking about DevNet, a huge developer community for Cisco. DevNet Create was kind of their cloud-native group that they've put together, great little skunk works, worked out great. But those are two languages. It's two worlds. The semantics of what they're saying is the same thing, but the translation is needed. This seems to be a common thread within the DevOps community now that the rubber hits the road, and people see the obvious benefits of what is true private cloud or cloud native. So, how do you go ahead? You provide like a dictionary, and say, "Hey, here's the translation. Okay, he really means that." I mean, are you being more herding the cats, being a translator, or is the client further along than that in your mind? >> It varies, it does vary from company to company. And a chunk of this, at least from my experience, is there is a significant translation layer. One of the things I talked about in my keynote on Monday was I see collaboration ... When I do community strategy, but fundamentally, it really is organizational design. It's just outside of a company in some cases, and sometimes inside of a company. In an organization, you'll have a set of stakeholders making decisions, and then the people who've got to execute on those decisions. And there is often a massive translation layer between them. I run a conference called the Community Leadership Summit each year at OSCON, and every year a couple hundred community managers come along, and I hear the same story from a lot of them, which is, I joined this company, I started building out, I started doing my work and my manager wasn't happy. And to me it's because the execs are defining value that they want to see, but it's not getting translated into tatics, and invariably a lot of the folks who are coming into it-- >> John: Where their ROI calculations are-- >> Yeah, a lot of that's-- >> They're not seeing a real answer. They don't know what success looks like. >> And they come in, and they don't necessarily have the strategic background to internalize that requirement into a place that they can move it forward. So, you get this kind of, this impedance mismatch. So, a big chunk of what I tend to do is to really try to understand what those requirements are and to work across the organization to try and-- >> John: You're doing architecture? Like what would be organizational behavior architecture in the wild, but also an arbiter to the managers. It's looking good, it's like you're trying to the score of the game. You're keeping-- >> Jono: And some days as well, as I'm sure anyone who's watching this, will have seen this with the companies they work with, this isn't rocket science. You know, what someone says they want, this is going to sound incredibly patronizing, it's not meant to, but when someone says what they want, invariably what they actually want is not that thing. So for example, I was working with a company a couple of months ago and they were saying, "We just want growth. We absolutely want to grow as quickly as we can." And when I dug into it with their CEO, what they really wanted was brand recognition and acceptance. And those are two very different challenges that you got to approach there. >> John: Stu, get a word in, I'm sorry if I've taken all of it. >> Yeah, John's passionate about community if you can't tell. The question I have for you is, building a community takes time, and things are changing faster than ever. How do you help people manage that pace of change versus I want results? It seems strategy is something that is for today, and we're changing often. So, how do you manage that give and take of growing yet breaking? >> It's a great question. And again, I think it varies. To me, there's some fundamental pieces that are involved in the way that I, and I take one approach and other people will take different approaches, I'm certainly not the only person who's doing this. The approach that I like to take is is we first of all need to treat communities as a journey. I think a lot of people think we have a product or a service, let's get people interested, and it's seen as a series of individual interactions with individual people. Whereas the way I like to look at it is when that person discovers your product, your service, your framework, whatever it may be, there's a journey from how they learn about it, how they go up an on-ramp to get something done, how you get people making their first contribution or how they derive their first piece of value, and then how you incentivize and reward them to keep them moving along the journey. So to me I look at it as this zoomed-out birds-eye view of this journey that I want to craft. And then I like to break that down into small bite-sized pieces that form the strategy. But the other thing is, and this varies depending on the company, is to what level of transparency and openness you need to communicate with different people. So, for example, one of the first things I do with inner source when people bring in open source principles inside a company is to make sure we have weekly reports going out and we're updating the stakeholders, more specifically, on a regular cadence. Because in that kind of environment where there's an existing enterprise, we all see these like digital transformation consultants come in-- >> Oh god, it's a total gravy train. They make the bookings and the billings. Reminds me of the old ERP deployments. Write a big fat check, and it'd be like, all these consultants come in and make all the cash. >> I think a lot of people look around thinking, alright, Lunchbox, you'll be here for a year. You'll be gone then, all right, and we'll go on to the next thing now our CEO cares about. So to me it's like-- >> John: Well, the consulting is being disrupted. It's interesting, you're a contrarian in your world because you have a consulting firm, but the old model things used to be the next gig is get that next consulting gig, so you worked not to actually put yourself out of a job, which is where the client wants to get. And that's where Agile and cloud has come in. It's interesting is, this is where the work product is. You know what success is in that model. You can come in and say, look, we did our work, everything. You've got a community that's vibrant. You got operational, they operationalized your value. >> Jono: Yep. >> You don't need me anymore, unless you want me. So, it's one of those kinds of conversations. Your thoughts? >> I agree. And it's interesting you mentioned Agile. One of the things that I've noticed as well, and I'm sure lots of not just consultants but people notice this as well is there are, I think there are broadly two types of people in the world. I think there's people who take a very kind of organic and somewhat animated approach to how they do things. And then there's some people who really need a roadmap. They need to follow a plan. I think a lot of people who are building organizational design or building communities default to we need to create a process and a workflow so people can follow that and we can have a sense of order. I don't think most people naturally want to work like that. I think there's a reason why people don't stick with to-do lists. It's because people like to have a more organic way of working. And a good example of this, in my mind, is Agile. Some people will take Agile to the nth degree with story points and epics and a lot of that kind of stuff-- >> You serve the process, the process doesn't serve the objective. I mean, it's the classic effectiveness model. But, I mean, that's the whole point. I mean, you could foreclose opportunities if you're too structured. But yet you got to have some boundaries, let the ball bounce around. So, you kind of want both. What is the ideal in your mind? >> In my mind, the approach that I'm a big fan is an approach called munsing, which was a story of, I forget his name, there's a story of a guy back in like the 50s. And he basically owned a TV factory. And what he'd do is he'd go up to like an engineer who's building one of these big, bulky old TVs, and he'd basically pull out components until it stopped working. And then he'd put that last component in so it would be the minimum level of components for it to work. Ended up saving the company a ton of money. I like to take the same approach process. What's the minimum level that you need that gives people the creativity to be successful in a predictable way? So, like with Agile, these epics and stories and things like that, I think a lot of that stuff is just there to deal with crappy product managers, like people who aren't very good at manning your project. No process is going to deal with someone who's not good at organizing. >> You need to bring to me the right level of the human ingredient and the process is what keeps people ticking over-- >> The other thing too that I find in that area is people kind of redefine, or they maybe mischaracterize what outcome is. Everyone's outcome driven. Love that word. (Jono laughs) It's all about the outcome. In this case, the TV's got to work with a less amount of moving parts. >> Jono: Right. >> That's the outcome. And so, outcomes can be bastardized if you will, could be really mangled in its definition. How do you work with clients on trying to really temper and set the expectations on what the outcome is? Cause the manager still wants to know what the outcome is going to be. So, do you reverse engineer from there? How do you tackle that? >> Jono: It's interesting. A big chunk of it for me is just being realistic. There is no minimum amount of work that needs to be put in to achieve any kind of community. I think you can build a tiny community with one person. However, depending on the requirements and the goals, there's just certain things you have to do. And there's certain time and resources that are required. And also just expectations. Like one of the expectations that some people wrestle with I think is, if you're building a community they're either inside your organization or outside, it's only going to succeed if a broader set of people participate. You know, we see this trend where you hire a community manager and that person lives in a forum or a slack channel to build out the community. Doesn't work. >> John: Yeah. >> Because the people in that community want access to other people. >> This value creation mindset in communities. Value has to be a group dynamic. This individual contributions, I get that. But the group dynamic is critical. Not just a message board moderator. I mean, that's basically what you're saying. >> Jono: Exactly. >> That's a message board. >> Nobody wants to deal with >> John: That's a tool. >> the interface of the thing you care about. And that's the community manager. So, a chunk of this then is a different mindset in how people operate. One of my clients is a company called HackerOne. I wrapped up work with them a little while ago, and their CEO is this guy called Mårten Mickos who-- >> John: Yeah, Mårten's great CUBE alumni. >> Phenomenal. For me, he's one of the people I most respect in our industry. >> John: He's a great strategic thinker, understands community, knows tech. Great guy >> Jono: Amazing. >> One of the things that he said when he joined HackerOne was I want everybody in this company to know a hacker. Everybody's got to know our audience. Everybody's got to understand the needs, the desires, the insecurities, the worries, the dynamics, otherwise we can't build a community. It's not just hiring a person to interface to that. That's one of the trickiest things because, again, it takes time. >> John: It's alignment to the audience. >> Right >> John: This is classic. >> Ingratiating in and actually being cool. Aligning with them >> Right. And if it's done well it's really rewarding because I think people who ordinarily wouldn't see the fruits of their labor. >> Well, Jono, I want to get your thoughts as we wrap up the segment here on what's exciting you about potential new things that are coming around the corner. Obviously, we see the promise of blockchain which could have a great big application for communities. We're doing some things with it now that we're testing in our community around trying to create these new value networks. Certainly, there's new tooling coming out. Things like theCUBE and content and communities. New things are coming. The growth is going to be here which is going to create great new opportunities. >> Jono: Yeah. >> What are you excited about as you want to navigate the community landscape? Because the thesis is more people are coming in, more rivers of distinct audiences are going to want specialty but yet the broad market ... What are you excited about the community opportunity? From compensation to interaction to culture. What's your thoughts? >> There's a few things I'll subdivide it into things that relate to my bread and butter which is communities and things just more broadly in technology. The one thing I'm really excited about communities is I feel like the value proposition has become well understood, is not just in open source but outside with Proctor & Gamble, H&R Block, Harley Davidson, all these examples. Where people see the value in doing this work and doing it well. And that's great because I think we're improving the state-of-the-art of how we do this. One of the reasons why I got into this was I want my career to leave a fingerprint on structured, predictable ways in which we can do this as opposed to seeming magic science that a lot of people seem to think community is. >> John: Or a series of one-offs that are not understood or can't be operationalized or leveraged in any way. >> Jono: Yeah, exactly. From a technology perspective, there's a bunch of things. I'm really excited about crowdsource security, things like HackerOne, Bugcrowd, Synack, things like that. I think there's a lot of excitement in my mind around bringing open source into financial services. I think that's an industry that's ripe to be disrupted which is a sentence I never thought I'd ever say. Ripe to be disrupted. (John laughs) And then I'm also really excited about the work that's going on obviously in A.I., but the intersection of A.I. with kind of like voice control. Obviously, things such as Google Home and Alexa, but also things like Mycroft. I think blockchain is interesting. It's kind of less interesting to me. It's not really something I've really been following very closely, but I think it is. I think it's pretty neat. But then also just the formalization of the end-to-end software development lifecycle and how we're seeing, you know, GitHub was transformative in technology for a lot of companies. And now we're seeing GitHub as one piece, and you've got continuous delivery and continuous deployment. And also, we manage ideas, the project manager, all that kind of stuff. >> I think there's a lot of transformative ideas coming. And I think it's super exciting. Congratulations on all the great work you're doing. >> Jono: Thank you. Appreciate it. >> I just think that the self-governing community model that's now becoming mainstream people are starting to figure out how to balance that with the command and control top down and hierarchy job definition specifics, and balancing that. I think the self-governing open source model certainly prove that. And communities as a working example of what you can operationalize. >> It's exciting. >> And crowdsourcing just takes it to the consumer level. >> Right. >> Okay, it's working there too. Okay, great job. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> John: Jono Bacon, >> John: Bacon Consulting. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

(cheerful music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE! Covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Welcome back, and we're live here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE's special coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Two days of wall-to-wall coverage. Our next guest, Ed Warnicke, who is a distinguished consulting engineer with Cisco. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Glad to be here! >> Thanks for coming on. Love to get into it. We love infrastructure as code. We love the cloud developers. The young generation loves it. Making things easy to use all sounds great, but there's still work to get done. The networking... So what's going on here at the Open Source? So this is the big tent event where there's a lot of cross-pollination around projects. Obviously the networking side, you guys at Cisco are doing your share. Give us the update. Networking is still a lot more work to be done. It's a very strategic part of the equation. Certainly making it easier up above makes it programmable. >> Yeah, you have to make the networking invisible even to the DevOps layer. There are certain things that you need from the network. They need isolation and reachability. They need service discovery and service routing. But they don't want to have to think about it. They don't want to be burdened with understanding the nitty gritty details. They don't want to know what subnet they're on, they don't want to have to worry about ACL's, they don't want to think about all of that. And the truth is, there's a lot of work that goes into making the network invisible and ubiquitous for people. And in particular, one of the challenges that we see arising as the world moves more cloud-native, as the microservices get smaller, as the shift happens toward serverless, as Kubernetes is coming on with containers, is that the network is really becoming the run time. And that run time has the need to scale and perform like it never has before. So the number of microservices you'd like to put on a server keeps going up, and that means you need to be able to actually handle that. The amount of traffic that people want to push through them continues to go up. So your performance has to keep up. And that brings a lot of distinct challenges, particularly when you're trying to achieve those in systems that were designed for a world where you had maybe two NIC's on the box, where you weren't really thinking when the original infrastructure was built about the fact that you were actually going to have to do a hell of a lot of routing inside the server because you now have currently hundreds, but hopefully someday thousands and tens of thousands of microservices running there. >> Ed, you know, I think when we've been talking about the last 15 or 20 years or so, I need to move faster with my deployment. It always seemed that networking was the thing that held everything up. It's like, okay, wait, when I virtualized, everything's great and everything, and I can just spit up a VM and do that. Oh, but I need to wait for the network to be provisioned. What are the things you've been working on, what open source projects? There's a lot of them out there helping us to really help that overall agility of work today. >> Absolutely. So one of the things I'm deeply involved in right now is a project called FD.io, usually pronounced Fido, because it's cute. And it means we can give away puppies at conferences. It's great. What FD.io is doing, is we have this core technology called VPP that gives you incredibly performant, incredibly scalable networking purely in user space. Which means from a developer velocity point of view, we can have new features every three months. From an extensibility point of view, you can bring new network features as separate plugins you drop as .so's into a plugin directory instead of having to wait for the kernel to rev on your server. And the revving process is also substantially less invasive. So if you need to take a microservice network as a user space thing and rev it, it's a restart of a process. You're talking microseconds, not 15-minute reboot cycles. You're talking levels of disruption where you don't lose your TCP state, where you don't lose any of those things. And that's really crucial to having the kind of agility that you want in the network. And when I talk about performance and scalability, I'm not kidding. So one of the things we recently clocked out with VPP was being able to route a terabyte per second of traffic with millions of routes in the forwarding tables on commodity servers with no hardware existence at all. And the workloads are starting to grow in that direction. It's going to take them a while to catch up, but to your point about the network being the long pull, we want to be far ahead of that curve so it's not the long pull anymore. So you can achieve the agility that you need in DevOps and move innovative products forward. >> Ed, one of the things that comes up all the time, I wanted to get your reaction to this because you're an important part of it, is developers say, look, I love DevOps. And even ops guys are saying, we want to promote DevOps, so there's a mind meld there if you will. But then what they don't want is a black box. They want to see debugging, and they want to have ease of manageability. So I don't mind pushing dev, if I'm an ops guy, send the dev down, but they need a path of visibility. They need to have access to debug fast. Get access to some of those things. What do you see as gates if you will, that we got to get through to make that seamless and clean right now? Obviously Kubernetes, lot of stuff going on with orchestration. And containers are providing a path. But still, the complaint and nervousness is okay, you can touch and program the infrastructure, but if something happens, you're going to be reactive. >> Yeah, that gets exactly to the point. Because the more invisible the network is, the more visibility you need when things go wrong. And for general operational use. And one of the cool things that's happening in FD.io around that, is number one, it's industrial scale. So you have all sorts of counters and telemetry information that you need from an historical point of view in networks to be able to figure out what's going on. But beyond that, there's a whole lot of innovation that's been happening in the network space that has yet to trickle down all the way to the server edge. A really classic example on the visibility front has to do with in-band iOAM. So we now have the technology, and this is present today in VPP, to be able to say, hey, I would like an in-band trace on the flow though the network of this flow for this customer who's giving me a complaint, where I can see hop by hop through the network including in the edge where VPP is, what's the latency between hops? What path it actually passed through. And there's even a feature there where you could say, at each hop, please send the packet capture at that hop to a third-party point where I can collect it so I can look at it in something like Wireshark. So you can look in Wireshark and say, okay I see where this went into that node and came out that node this way. Node by node by node. I don't know how much more visibility than that is actually physically possible. And that's one of the kinds of things that the velocity of features that you have in VPP has made very possible. That's the kind of thing that would take a long time to work into the traditional development line for networking. >> What's the Cisco internal vibe right now? Because we covered the DevNet Create event that Susie Wee put on, which was kind of like a cloud-native cool event. Kind of grassroots, kind of guerrilla. I love the mojo there. But then you've got the DevNet community at Cisco, which is a robust killer developer community on the Cisco side. How are those worlds coming together? I can imagine that the appetite for the Cisco DevNet teams, the DevNet developer community, is looking at cloud-native as an opportunity. Can you share some insight into what's the sentiment, what's the community vibe, what's going on? For folks that just got to run the networks, I mean this is serious stuff. In the past, they've been like, cloud-native, when you're ready we'll get there. But now there seems to be an onboarding of cloud-native. Talk about the dynamic. >> There has to be, because cloud-native won't wait. And there's a lot of things that the network can do to help you as the run time. The iOAM example is one, but there are a ton more. Again, cloud-native won't wait. They will find a way, and so you have to be able to bring those features at the pace at which cloud-native proceeds. You can't do it on six-month product cycles. You can't do it on 12-month product cycles. You have to be able to respond point by point as things more forward. A good example of this is a lot of the stuff that's happening with server meshes in Insteon. Which is coming really fast. Not quite here, but coming really fast. And for that, the real question is, what can the network do for DevOps? Because there's a synergistic relationship between DevOps and NetOps. >> So you were saying... Just to try to get at the point. So yes, are you seeing that the DevNet community is saying hey we love this stuff? Because they're smart, they know how to adapt. Moving from networks to DevOps. To me it seems like they're connecting the dots. You share some-- Are they, yes no maybe? >> They're absolutely connecting the dots, but there's a whole pipeline with all of this. And DevNet is at the short pointy end where it touches the DevOps people. But to get there, there's a lot of things that have to do with identifying what are the real needs, getting the code written to actually do it, figuring out the proper innovations, engaging with open source communities like Kubernetes so that they're utilized. And by the time you get to DevNet, now we're at the point where you can explain them to DevOps, where they can use them really cleanly. One of the other things is, you want it to come through transparently. Because people want to be able to pick their Kubernetes Helm charts off the web, take the collection of containers for the parts of their application they don't want to have to think about, at least right now, and have it work. So you have to make sure you're supporting all the stuff that's there, and you have to work to be able to take advantage of those new features in the existing API's. Or better yet, just have the results of those API's get better without having to think about new features. >> So they're in great shape. It's not a collision, it's not friction. >> No, no no. >> It's pretty much synergistic. Network guys get the DevOps equation. >> No, we get the DevOps equation, we get the need. There is a learning process for both sides. We deeply need each other. Applications without networking are completely uninteresting. And this is even more true in microservices where it's becoming the run time for the network. On the same side, networks without applications are completely uninteresting because there's no one to talk. And what's fascinating to me is how many of the same problems get described in different language and so we'll talk past each other. So DevOps people will talk about service discovery and service routing. And what they're really saying is, I want a thing, I don't want to have to think about how to get to it. On the network side, for 15 years now, we've been talking about identifier/locator separation. Basically the having an IP address for the thing you want, and having the ability to transparently map that to the location where that thing is without having to... It's the classic renumber your network problem. They're at a very fundamental level the same problem. But it's a different language. >> The game is still the same. There's some language nuances that I think I see some synergies. I see people getting it. It's like learning two languages. Okay, the worlds come together. It's not a collision. But the interesting thing is networking has always been enabling opportunity. This is a fundamental nuance. If you can get this right, it's invisible, as you said. That's the end game. >> Absolutely. That's really what you're looking for. You want invisibility in the normal mode, and you want total transparency when something has to be debugged. The classic example with networks is, when there's a network problem it's almost never the network. It's almost always some little niggle of configuration that went wrong along the way. And so you need that transparency to be able to figure out okay, what's the point where things broke? Or what's the point where things are running suboptimally? Or am I getting the level of service that I need? Am I getting the latency I need, and so forth. And there's been a tendency in the past to shorthand many of those things with networking concepts that are completely meaningless to the underlying problem. People will look at subnets, and say for the same subnet, we should have low latency. Bullshit. I mean basically, if you're on the same subnet, the guy could be on the other end of the WAN in the modern era with L2 overlays. So if you want latency, you should be able to ask for a particular latency guarantee. >> It felt to me that it took the networking community a while to fix things when it came to virtualization. (Ed laughs) but the punch line is, when it comes to containers, and what's happening at Kubernetes, it feels like the networking community is rallying a lot faster and getting ahead of it. So what's different this time? You've got kind of that historical view on it. Are we doing better as an industry now, and why is it? >> So a couple of things. The Kubernetes guys have done a really nice job of laying out their networking API's. They didn't get bogged down in the internal guts of the network that no DevOps guy ever wants to have to see. They got really to the heart of the matter. So if you look at the guarantees that you have in Kubernetes, what is it? Every pod can talk to every other pod at L3. So L2 isn't even in the picture. Which is beautiful, because in the cloud, you need to worry about subnets like you need a hole in the head. Then if you want isolation, you specify a network policy. And you don't talk about IP addresses when you do that. You talk about selectors on labels for pods, which is a beautiful way to go about it. Because you're talking about things you actually care about. And then with services, you're really talking about how do I discover the service I want so I never have to figure out a pod IP? The system does it for me. And there are gaps in terms of there being things that people are going to be able to need to do that are not completely specified on those API's yet. But the things they've covered have been covered so well, and they're being defended so thoroughly, that it's actually making it easier because we can't come in and introduce concepts that harm DevOps. We're forced to work in a paradigm that serves it. >> Okay, great. So this'll be easy, so we'll be ready to tackle serverless. What's that going to mean for the network? >> Serverless gets to be even more interesting because the level of agility that you want in your network goes up. Because you can imagine something in serverless where you don't even want to start a pod until someone has made a request. So there's an L7 piece that has to be dealt with but then you have to worry about the efficiency of how do you actually move that TCP session to the actual instance that's come up for serverless for that thing, and how do you move it to the next thing? Because you're working at an L7, where from the client's point of view, they think it's all the same server, but it's actually been vulcanized across all these microservices. And so you have to find an efficient way of making that transparent that minimizes the degree to which you have to hairpin through things all over the cluster because that just introduces more latency, less throughput, more load on the cluster. You've got to be able to avoid that. And so, by being able to bring sophisticated features quickly to the data plain with something like FD.io and VPP, you can actually start peeling those problems off progressively as serverless matures. Because the truth of the matter is, no one really knows what those things are going to look like. We all like to believe we do, but you're going to find new problems as you go. It's the unknown unknowns that require the velocity. >> So it sounds like you're excited about serverless, though. >> Ed: Usually, yes, definitely. >> So I love serverless too, and I always talk about it. So what is in your opinion the confusion? There are some people who are like, oh it's bullshit. I don't think it is personally. I think it's nirvana. I think it's what people want, what most developers want. There's a server behind it. It's not serverless per se. It's just from a developer standpoint, you don't have to provision hardware. >> Or containers, or VM's, or any of that. >> I personally think it's a good thing. Is it just a better naming convention? Give the people, what's the nuance? Why are people confused? >> I think it's much more fundamental than just the naming convention. Because historically, if you look at the virtualization of workloads, every movement we've had to date has been about some workload run time technology. VM's were about virtual machines. Containers are about containers to run technology. When you get to microservices and serverless, we've made the leap from talking about the underlying technology that most developers don't care about to talking about the philosophy that they do. >> Their run time is their app. Their run time assembly is their code sandwich, not to say the network. >> Just as in serverless, I don't think anyone doubts that the first run of serverless is going to be built on containers. But the philosophy is completely divorced for them. So I'll give you an example. One of the things that we have in VPP is we have an ultra high performance, ultra high scalability userspace TCP stack. We're talking the kind of thing that can trivially handle ten million simultaneous connections with 200,000 new connections coming in every second. And right now, you can scope that to an isolation scope of a container. But there's no reason, with the technology we have, you can't scope it all the way down to a process. So you control the network access at the level of a process. So there's a lot of headroom to go even smaller than containers, even lighter weight than containers. But the serverless philosophy changes not a wit as you have that improvement come in. >> That's beautiful. Ed, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. We really appreciate your perspective. I'd like you to get one final word in to end the segment. Describe what's happening here because the OS Summit, or the Open Source Summit, is the first of its kind, a big tent event. What's your take on it? What's the purpose of the event? What's your experience? Share with the folks who aren't here what this event is all about. >> It's really exciting, because as much as we love The Linux Foundation, and as much as we've all enjoyed things like LinuxCon in the past, the truth is, for years it's been bleeding beyond just Linux. I don't see the OS Summit so much as a shift in focus, as a recognition of what's developed. Last year we had the Open Source Summit here. We just called it LinuxCon. The year before we had the Open Source Summit here. We just called it LinuxCon. And so what's really happening is, we're recognizing what is. There's actually no new creation happening here. It's the recognition of what's evolved. >> And that is open source as a tier one reality that goes way beyond Linux, which is by the way super valuable at the kernel. >> Ed: Oh, we all love Linux. >> All Linux apps... The only apps are Linux apps. But it's a bigger thing. The growth and scale that's coming is unprecedented. I think a lot of people still are pitching themselves, Stu and I were commenting, that what's coming is going to change the face of software development for generations to come. There's an exponential scale of software libraries coming on board. Up to 400 million was forecast by 2026? >> That sounds conservative to me. (laughs) >> You think so? Well, I mean, just to get the scale. So there's going to be some leadership opportunities for the community, in my opinion. >> Absolutely. And this is where the Open Source Summit actually... I mean, words matter because they shape the way we think about things. So where I think the shift to the Open Source Summit has huge value is that it starts to shift the thinking into this broader space. It's not just a recognition of what's happened. It's a new load of software here for the community. >> This is not a marking then, it's a recognition of what's actually happening. I love that quote. Open Source Summit, brilliant move by The Linux Foundation. Create a big tent event for cross-pollination, sharing of ideas. This is the ethos of open source. Ed, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. This is theCUBE with live coverage from the Open Source Summit in North America, formerly LinuxCon and all the other great events here in Los Angeles. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. 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(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello there and welcome to our special exclusive SiliconANGLE Media CUBE coverage here in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host, Stu Miniman, for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage, this is day two of our coverage of what's going on in the Open Source world as the Linux Foundation consolidates their shows into a big tent event. This is the inaugural event of now consolidated, a bunch of little shows come together. This is the big show where the Linux Foundation brings their entire communities together to talk and cross-pollinate with Jim Zemlin, the Executive Director, as they outline that. Stu, we're in our kickoff of day two, we're going to do some analysis and commentary, but before we start I want to get your thoughts on just day one. Yesterday we had a lot of guests, a lot of activities going on at night, we kind of divided and conquered. What did you find out? >> Yeah so John you'd done some coverage of LinuxCon a couple of years ago, it's my first time coming to this show. We do a lot of Open Source coverage with theCUBE's over the years, so coming in it was like, okay, what are we going to be talking about, what's the vibe? And being a big tent event, you know, I was a little surprised to see, I mean, the conversation's the same that we've been hearing the last year. Kubernetes, kind of the big wave that's coming in, not just in Open Source, but really the conversation in cloud, and really was kind of the top issue that kind of containerization, the new way of architecting things, you know, Linux absolutely is down there underneath, and majorly important but, you know, it seems to be that rallying around everything Kubernetes. MesosCon's right next door, and we said two years ago you never would have thought that, Kubernetes, that Mesos would be saying, you know, the best place to run Kubernetes is on DCOS. You know, it was the container wars, the orchestration wars, all those things. Kubernetes really leading the charge there, and it really fed into a lot of the conversations we had here. And in our conversations, like with Christine Corbett, and in some of the keynotes this morning, really talking about the power of collaboration, community, you know, stuff like that, we were passionate about John. >> Yeah, I mean, Stu, here's my take on the big story coming out of L.A. for this event. And I think the top line story is this. The Open Source community has had so much success going in the early days and depending which generation you want to call it, you know, we're a little bit older, old school, maybe fourth generation, you can argue the point but here's the bottom line. The big story is that the Linux Foundation, Linux apps, are everywhere, it's a global standard, it is happening. And the scale of which the growth that's going to be coming is unprecedented, and I think for the first time in the history of the computer industry, you're seeing a pause. You're seeing a moment of excitement from the executive director, the Linux Foundation, the board members, and the participants in the community who are realizing, holy shit, this is going to grow very huge. And Open Source is going to go to a whole 'nother growth level, it's going to be exponential in scale, and you're going to see some blitzscaling going on, as Jerry Chen at Greylock and Reid Hoffman talk about. And that's going to change the nature of the participation. You're going to start to see new accelerated things, certification, the role of the foundation certainly has always been to serve the sustainable communities of Open Source. Their role will change as stewards of Open Source, the responsibility and the reliance on the Open Source software will continue to grow, and I think that scale phenomenon of Open Source is, potentially, might be the biggest wave of all, Stu, and I think some people are going to be washed like driftwood and some people are going to thrive and survive. >> You know, it's interesting, we look back at Linux, and Linux took a long time, you know, more than a decade, to really kind of gain mainstream adoption. You know, Red Hat, of course came out of with kind of the leadership and the dollars, but Linux was the foundation for everything being built today. There would be no Google without Linux. There would be no Amazon as we know it today without Linux. And I really liked, I think it was strong resonance, everybody's a little surprised, Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the keynote this morning, someone that we know, you know, from the movies, and we're here in L.A., they're like, oh great, they brought an actor. Well, he's actually pretty passionate. He has this website hitrecord.org, where they do, you know, collaboration, and it's people that are drawing and creating music and creating little clips and everything and they said how a community can help build on what they're doing. He said it's about community, fair compensation, and collaborating, rather than just socializing and sharing or any of those things. And something we've talked a lot is, what is the translation of participating in the community translate into dollars, translate into value. I know it's something you're really passionate about. >> Yeah, Stu, this is again, the big story is the growth. But let's unpack that a little bit. Open Source has always been about sharing, it's always been about community, it's been about innovation, freedom, they called them radicals in the early days but now they got to grow, flexibility, and execution. Here's the bottom line. The leadership of the Open Source is going to morph radically. Look at the program here. You got inclusion, you got a little politics, not like politics of open source, politics of cultural shaping with Christine Corbett Morgan, so she's talking about that, it's very relevant. You have Dan Lyons coming in, talking about the programmer culture, you have the actor coming in talking about collective intelligence. I believe that there's going to be a new way of how people are going to be compensated, how participation's going to scale and this comes down to some key tell tale signs. One, a new generation's coming into the Open Source world, this younger generation. They love Serverless, the love DevOps, because they don't want to deal with the infrastructure. So all the old folks, guys like our age, and gals, they have to provide leadership. I talked with Sam Ramji about this in detail, about how some of these stewards in the community have to step up and be leaders in a new way of governing because as the onboarding of more source code, more projects with IOT, with cloud, you're going to see a new generation of young developers that quite frankly are going to want to run fast, run faster, and they don't want to deal with networking, they don't want to, they want serverless, they want true programmable infrastructure, and that's going to potentially cause some changes, maybe at the leadership level but also how they run things. So, I think, Stu, this is something that we're watching as a big wave. >> Yeah, and it's funny because, we always talk, I'd love to be able to extract a way, even virtualization, oh, we're going to make it real simple, you don't have to worry it anymore, well, you know, John, we got some more interviews today, you know. Networking, storage, these things just don't magically, fairy dust, everything works really well, you know. Data has gravity, networking has lots of challenges we have to worry about. Open Source is now infused into all of these environments. Really helping to build those distributed architectures. We had a number of interviews yesterday talking about, these things are not easy, these are tough challenges. You know, even you talk to people and say, "Kubernetes is awesome," sure is not simple, it is not easy to crawl out. >> They've not graduated any projects out of the CNCF yet, talking to Chris yesterday, the COO, he said, "look, we haven't even graduated anything out of," but this is the point, Stu. Kubernetes is a tell sign, that's not fully-baked yet, it's an under-the-hood feature. Serverless, which I love the name and hate it at the same time because there's servers out there. The notion is that the due developers don't want a provision hardware, to them they just want a resource pool, so serverless is a good trend. The name is kind of weak in my opinion, but I kind of love it and hate it at the same time, I mean. >> John, it's just like cloud was 10 years ago. >> What do you think of Serverless, Stu? I mean bottom line is that how could you not like Serverless because as a developer you're just programming infrastructure as code. >> Right, absolutely, I want to be able to use things in a much more granular format, I want to be able to when I'm not using it not pay for it, it really fits into that environment. Something of course, with this show we're talking about is today, you say Serverless, I think AWS Lambda. The proprietary offering, how does something like Kubernetes fit into that? There's containers underneath, but there are a few different Open Source versions that functions as a service. There's Open FaaS, there's OpenWhisk, there's a couple of others, so how will I be able to take what we were liking about containers in general and Kubernetes specifically, that I can work across a number of environments to make sure that I'm not, John, I'm going to say the word, locked in, to a certain provider or a certain piece of the ecosystem. >> Well, Open Source is so robust right now. Again, 10% of the original ideas can be written in code that could be part of the 90% Open Source base code base. Jim Zemlin, the executive director called that the Code Sandwich. But the bottom line in my opinion, Stu, and you were just pointing it out is that the leadership has to scale. And I think one of the things that came up in some of my hallway conversations last night, talking to some folks who have been early on in Open Source, in the old days you had to hate someone, there was an enemy. There was Microsoft, and now they're on board. There was the big proprietary main mini-computer guys, the proprietary operating systems, they were the enemy. Who's the enemy now? The enemy is slowness, right? So, kind of the fundamental question is, Open Source doesn't have that enemy anymore, it's the standard. So the question is what is going to motivate the organizations? To me, I think it's speed. Speed is the new normal, scale is the new normal. Slowness and silos will be the enemy. >> Absolutely, John. It's something I've heard at a number of events we've been at recently, companies' number one thing is not cost, it's speed, and one of the reasons that so many companies work on, contribute to Open Source is to help them with that speed. They can't wait for the turn of the crank from the old software beast, or oh gosh, there are some chips or hardware involved in that? Open Source, I want to be able to contribute to the code, work on the code, ship it, move faster. >> And the other thing that came up yesterday, I want to get your thoughts and reaction to, is do you have a fashion model going on here? Never fight fashion, as we say, a good marketer would say. You have CNCF is very fashionable right now. But there's blogging and tackling projects that have been around for a while, like the networking piece. These are stable, great projects. They just don't have the pomp and circumstance as CNCF have. So, the balance of being trendy is an issue now for these Open Source communities. No one wants to work on a project that's boring but the relevance is important. So how do you react to that, Stu, because this is now a dynamic, it's kind of been there for a while, but now with the plethora of projects out there, are you nervous that fashion, fashionable trendy projects like CNCF, might suck all the option out of the governance? >> No, John, I mean, from a press and a marketing standpoint they get the attention, but I think that the stats really prove out, there's so many projects out there. Everybody's contributing to a lot of them, but it is something the developers should think about. We did an interview of a company, I remember years back, said, "how do you get the best people "and how do they choose what to do?" "Oh, whatever they feel is good." And I'm like, well, come on, you got to put a little bit of a business guidance on that to make sure what's going to help your business, what's going to help your career, if you're an individual contributing to this. There are plenty of options out there, both for starting new things as well as contributing to the big ones out there. And I liked what I was hearing from the Linux Foundation as to how they're going to give some governance to companies as to the health, that whole CHAOSS that they rolled out, talk about the health and the circular maintenance of things out there, but you know, so much activity. Kubernetes by no means is taking all of the attention, it just happens to be the current hotness. >> Well, there's some key under-the-hood details that are being worked on, that's the exciting part. Linux is a standard, it is powering. Most of the apps that are written are essential Linux apps if you look at the OS underneath. And again, the apps, again, the DevOps mindset is here, and now it's scaling and things like Serverless are going to be more greatness for developers, certainly as companies like Google, IBM, and others come in with real code and share and collaborate, a lot of people can participate in the greatness of Open Source, and I think that's, the future is bright for Linux and the Open Source Summit community. Stu, day two continues, live coverage here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Coverage of the Open Source Summit North America, in Los Angeles. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(lively, bouncy music) >> Host: Live from Los Angeles, it's The Cube, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by the.

(gentle music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back, and we're live here in Los Angeles, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host with my co-host Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO, Chief Operating Officer of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, formerly Cube-Con, Cloud Native Foundation, all rolled into the most popular Linux Foundation project right now, very fashionable, cloud native, running on native clouds, Chris welcome back to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Awesome, it's been a while, great to be back. >> So you are the Chief Operating Officer of the hottest project, to me at least, in the Foundation. Not the most important, because there's a lot of really important, everything's important, you don't pick a favorite child, but, if one's trending, the CNCF is certainly trending, it's got the most sponsors, it's got the most participants, there's so much action going on, there's so much change and opportunity, around Kubernetes, around containers, around writing cloud-native applications. You've guys have really put together a nice foundation around that, nice group, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Take a step back and explain to us, what the hell is the CNCF? We know what it is, we were there present at creation, but it's super-important, it's growing in relevance every day. Take a minute to explain. >> So I mean, you know, CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud-native technology, and it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting and the idea was, there's a certain set of technology out there that are essentially micro-service-based, that live in containers that are centrally orchestrated by some process, right, that's essentially what we mean when we say cloud-native, right, and CNCF was seeded with Kubernetes as its first project, and as we've seen over the last couple of years, Kubernetes has grown quite well, they have a large community, diverse contributor base, and have done kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, highest velocity open source projects out there, maybe only, compared to the kernel is maybe a little bit faster but it's just great to kind of see it growing. >> Why is it so hot right now? What's the catalyst? >> So I think if we kind of step back and we look at the trends in industry, right, more and more companies are becoming software companies, you know, folks like John Deere, building IoT platforms. You need some type of infrastructure to run this stuff, and especially at scale. You know, imagine sensors in every tractor, farm or in every vehicle, you're going to need serious infrastructure and cloud native really is a way to scale those type of infrastructure needs and so this is kind of I think why you're seeing a lot of interest being piqued in CNCF-related technology. >> A lot of prototypes too. >> Chris, see you know, it's interesting, I look back you know, a year or two ago, and it was like, oh, it was like the orchestration wars, it was Swarm versus Mesos, and now I look at it in the last year it's like, wait, Mesos fully embracing it, MesosCon they're going to be talking about how Mesos is the best place to you know, Kubernetes on DCOS, containerd now part of the container wars, so the container wars, we're going to talk about OCI, you know, Amazon, Microsoft, of course Google, out there at the beginning. Is there anybody that's not on board that Kubernetes... >> I mean we really have the top five cloud providers in the world, depending on what metrics you look at, part of CNCF, you know there's some others out there that still aren't fully part of the family. Hopefully if you stay tuned over the next week or so you may hear some announcements coming from CNCF of other large cloudy-type companies joining the family. >> Every week there's a new platinum sponsor (Chris laughs) and you guys are getting a check every week it seems. >> To me it's great to see companies stepping up to the play and actually sustaining open source foundations that are critical to the actual business, and I think that it's great to see this involvement. So to me I'm personally thrilled, 'cause otherwise we'd be in a situation where if the top five cloud providers in the world weren't part of CNCF, maybe they'd be trying to do their own initiative, so it's great that we have these companies at the table, and all trying to build, you know, find their own pathway to cloud-native. >> You guys are hyper-growth right now, and you're new too, you're still kind of you know, >> Chris: Less than two years old! >> I mean it's amazing. So I want to put a little Jim Zemlin test to you, (Chris laughs) which is, in his keynote today he talked about, this is the big kind of event for the whole community of open source to come together, and again, you're talking 64 million libraries out there now. He projected by 2026, 400 million, it literally is a hockey stick growth, so you got growth there, so he talked about four things, my summary. Project health, so healthiness, sustainability, secure code, training, new members. What's your strategy re those four things? Keeping the CNCF healthy, you don't eat too much and choke on all of that growth... >> Yeah, so in terms of projects, we have a very unique governance structure in place when we designed CNCF. So we kind of have this independent technical operating committee, we kind of jokingly refer to them as a technical supreme court, but they are made up of people from, kind of luminaries in the container cloud-native space, they're from competing companies too, but they try to really wear an independent hat and make sure that we're, projects that we're accepting are high quality, are a good fit for the foundation, and so it's actually fairly hard to get a project in CNCF, 'cause it really requires the blessing of this TOC. So, even though we have 10 projects now in about two years, I think that's about a project every two months, which is an okay pace. The other unique thing that we're doing is we have different levels of projects, we have inception, incubation and graduation. Right now, we have no graduated projects in CNCF, believe it or not, Kubernetes has not graduated yet because they're still finalizing their governance for the project and they're almost there. Once they do that, they'll most likely graduate. >> They'll walk cap and gown all nine yards, eh? >> Exactly, it'll be great. December we'll have the cap and gown ceremony. But the other unique thing is we're not, we do annual kind of reviews for some of our projects, certain levels will be annually reviewed, and if they're not longer healthy or a good fit, we're okay archiving them, or telling, you know, telling them you know, maybe you're not a good fit anymore for the foundation, or you know. And so I think you have to have a process in place where sometimes you do have to move things to the attic. >> Do you have a high bar on the projects >> The initial bar is extremely, extremely high, and I think over time, we may see some projects that get recycled or moved to the attic, or maybe they maybe merged together, we'll see, so we're thinking about this already, so... >> John: Okay, security? >> Security, so we, all projects in CNCF that graduate have to partake in the core infrastructures best practices badging program, so if the CII has this great effort that is basically helping to ensure projects meet a minimal level of best practices that make their projects secure. You know, it doesn't give you like full-blown guarantee, but these are good practices. >> So you were leveraging pre-existing work, classic, open-source ethos. >> Exactly, and they have like a set of domain experts completely focused on security building out these practices and you'll notice Kubernetes recently merged in the CII Best Practices badge, so if you go to the readme, you'll actually see it, and you'll click through and you'll see all the things that they've had to sign off and check on that they participate in, and so all of our projects are kind of going >> Training. >> Training, yeah, we just recently announced couple things. One is we have a >> Looking good so far, you get an A plus. >> Yeah, so as of today we've launched the Certified Kubernetes Administrator Program or CKA for short. So we have folks that are getting trained on, and are having official stamps that they are certified Kubernetes administrators, and to me that's huge, given like how hot the space is, having some stamp of approval that they are really certified in the space is huge. So we also offer free training through edX, so we launched some training courses earlier, and to be honest, if you look at our member companies, lots of great folks out there providing training material. >> So one of the keynotes that Christine Corbett Moran was talking about in her keynote was, more inclusion so there's no ruling class. Now I know you really have a ruling class going on with your high bar, I get that. How are you getting new members in, what's the strategy, who are the new members, how are you going to manage the perception possibly that a few people control the swing votes at potentially big projects? >> So here what's interesting is, people joining CNCF, like I mentioned before, we have a TOC, right? So there's kind of this separation of, I don't say church and state, but like, so the governing board, people who pay to join CNCF, they pay to sustain our open source projects, and so essentially they help with, they pay for marketing, staff, events and so on. They actually don't have technical influence over the projects. You don't have to be a member to have technical influence over our projects. People join CNCF because they want to have a say in the overall budget of how marketing, events and stuff, and just overall support the organization. But on the technical side, there's this kind of firewall, there's an independent TOC, they make the technical decisions. You can't really pay to join that at all, you have to actually be heavily participating in that community. >> John: How does someone get in that group? Is there a code? >> They have to just be like a luminary, we have a kind of election process that happens every two or three years, depending on how things are structured, and it's independently elected by the CNCF member community, essentially, is the simplest way I can explain it. >> The other announcement you talked about, kind of the individual certification, but the KCSP sort of programs >> Correct, exactly. >> Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that. >> Yes, so we had a program set up so it's Kubernetes Certified Service Provider, KCSP, that basically >> rolls right off the tongue >> I know, right, exactly. Herbal space program, whatever, I think of sometimes video games when we say it, but essentially, the program was put in place that a lot of end users out there in companies that are new to cloud native, and they're new to Kubernetes, essentially want to find a trusted set of partners that they can rely on, services and other things, so we created KCSP as a way to vet a certain set of companies that have at least a minimum of three people that have passed the Kubernetes certification exam that I talked about, and are essentially participating upstream in some way actively in the Kubernetes community. So we got a couple handfuls of companies that have launched, which is great, and so now, given that we're growing so fast, companies out there that are early end users that are exploring the space now have a trusted set of companies that go look at, and we're hoping to grow that program over time too. So this is just phase one. >> All right, so Chris, the other thing that I want to make sure we talk about, the Open Container Initiative, so I think it was originally OCP, which of course is, >> Open Container Project which when OCP was announced, it was like, okay, the cold war of Docker versus CoreOS versus everybody else, (Chris laughs) trying to figure out what that container format was, we all shook hands, I took a nice selfie with Ben who was CEO at the time, and everybody. So 1.0 is out. So, container's fully mature, ready to be rolled out right? But what does it mean? >> So I mean it's funny 'cause I basically joined the Linux Foundation, to help both start CNCF and OCI around the same time, right, and OCI was very narrowly scoped to only care about a small set of container-specific issues. One around how do you actually really run containers, start, stop, all that kind of life cycle bit, and how are containers laid out on disk, we call that the image specification. So you have the runtime spec and the image spec, and those are just very limited core pieces, like that OCI was not opinionated on networking or storage or any of, those are all left to other initiatives. And so after almost two years, we shipped 1.0, we got basically all the major container players to agree that this is 1.0 and we're going to build off from this, and so if you look at Docker with it's containerd project, or you know, fully adopting OCI, the Mesos community is, Cloud Foundry, even AWS announced their container register's supporting OCI, so we got the 1.0 out there, now we're going to see an abundance of people building tools and other things. I think you'll see more end users out there exploring containers. I've talked to a lot of companies that I can't necessarily name, but there's a lot of folks out there that may not dive into container technology until there is actually a mature standard and they feel like this technology is just not going to go away or they're going to get locked into some specific platforms. So, with 1.0 out the door, you'll see over the next six to 12 months, more tools being built. We're actually working to roll out a certification program so you get that nice little, you know, hey, this product is OCI-certified and supports the spec, so you'll see that happen over the next... >> Okay, so you've got the runtime spec and the image format spec, >> Yep, those are the two big ones. >> All 1.0, we're ready to roll, what's the roadmap >> Yeah, what's next. So there are early discussions about what other mature areas are out there kind of in container land right now. There are some discussions around distribution, so having a standard API to basically fetch and push container images out there. If you look at it, each container registry has basically a different set of APIs, and wouldn't it be nice if we could all kind of easily work together and have maybe one set, a way to kind of distribute these things. So there are some early discussions around potentially building out a distribution specification, but that's something that the technical community has to decide within OCI to do, and so over the next couple of months we're having some meetings, we're doing a bigger meeting at DockerCon Europe coming up in October to basically try to figure out what's really next. So I think after we shipped 1.0 a lot of people took a little bit of a breather, a break, and say like, congratulate themselves, take some vacation over the summer, and now we're going to get back into the full swing of things over the next couple of months. >> Say, what's the big conversation here, obviously at your event in Austin, it's got a plug for, theCUBE will be live covering it as well. >> I know, I'm excited. >> What's the uptake, what's the conversation in the hallways, any meetings, give us some >> Yeah, so we're doing >> I know there's some big announcement coming on Wednesday, there's some stuff happening >> Yeah, so, you know, first coming Wednesday, so like I mentioned, we have 10 projects right now in CNCF. We have two projects currently out for vote. So one of them is Envoy. There's a company you've probably heard of, Lyft, ride-sharing company, but Envoy essentially is their fancy service mesh that powers the Lyft platform, and many other companies out there are actually taking advantage of Envoy. Google's playing around with it, integrating into the Istio project, which is pretty powerful, but Envoy is currently, it was invited by the TOC for a formal vote, the voting period started last week, so we're collecting votes from the nine TOC members, and once that voting period is hopefully we can announce whether the project was accepted or not. The other project in the pipeline is a project called Jaeger, which is from Uber, you know, nice to have Uber >> John: Jaegermeister. >> Yeah, Jaegermeister, a bit like it. It's nice to have a product from Uber, another product from Lyft, kind of it's nice to see >> And if you have too much Jaeger, you have to take the Lyft to get home, right? >> Exactly, correct. So you know, just like Envoy, Jaeger is, you know, was formally invited by the TOC, it's out for vote, and hopefully we'll count the votes soon and figure out if it gets accepted or not. So Jaeger is focused on distributed tracing, so one problem in micro-services land is once you kind of like refactor your application to kind of be micro-services-based, actually tracing and figuring out what happens when things go wrong is hard, and you need a really good set of distributed tracing tools, 'cause otherwise it's like the worst murder mystery, you have like no idea what's happened, so having solid distributed tracing solution like Jaeger is great, 'cause in CNCF we're going to have a project called OpenTracing, but that's just kind of like the spec of how you do things, there's no full-blown client-server distributed >> For instance you usually need it for manageability >> Exactly, and that's what Jaeger provides, and I'm excited to kind of have these two projects under consideration in CNCF. >> Is manageability the hottest thing going on right now in terms of conversations? (Chris sighs) Or is it more stability and getting projects graduating? >> Yeah, so like our big focus is like, we want to see projects graduate, kind of meet the minimum bar that the TOC set up for graduated projects. In terms of other hot areas that are under discussion in CNCF are storage, so for example we have a storage working group that's been working hard to kind of bring in all the vendors and different storage folks together, and there's some early work called the container storage interface, we call it CSI for short, and so you know there's another project at CNCF called CNI, which basically tried to build a standard around how networking is done in container land. CSI is doing the same thing because, you know, it's no fun rewriting your storage drivers for all the different orchestration systems out there, and so why not get together and build out a standard that is used by Kubernetes, by Mesos, by Cloud Foundry, by Docker, and just have it so they all work across these things. So that's what's happening, and it's still early days, but there's a lot of excitement in that. >> Okay, the event in Austin, what can people expect? Cube-Con. >> You're literally going to have the biggest gathering of Kubernetes and cloud-native talent. It's actually going to be one of our biggest events probably for the Linux Foundation at all. We're probably going to get 3-4,000 people minimum out there, and I'm stoked, we're going to have some... Schedule's not fully announced yet. I do secretly know some of the keynotes potentially, but just wait for that announcement, I promise you it's going to be great. >> And one question I get, just I thought I'd bring it up since you're here in the hot seat, lot of people coming in with, supporting you guys on the governing side, not even cyclical. How are you going to service them, how are you going to scale up, do you have confidence that you have the ability to execute against those sponsorships, support the members, what's your plan, can you share some insights, clarify that? >> You know, pressure makes diamonds, right? We have a lot of people at the right table, and we are doing some hiring, so we have a couple spots open for developer advocacy, technical writing, you know additive things that help our project overall. We're also trying to hire a head of marketing. So like, we are in the process of expanding the organization. >> Do you feel comfortable... >> I feel comfortable, like things are growing, things are moving at a fast clip, but we're doing the best we can to hire and don't be surprised if you hear some announcements soon about some fun hires. >> Well it's been great for us covering, we've been present and creating, if you will, this movement, which has been kind of cool, because it kind of a confluence of a couple of things coming together. >> Chris: Yeah, absolutely. >> It's just been really fun to watch, just the momentum from the cloud really early days, 2009 timeframe to now, it's been a real nice ride and congratulations to the entire community. >> Thank you, like for me it's just exciting to have all these companies sitting together at the same table, having Amazon join, and the other top fighters, all basically committing to saying, we are in the cloud-native, we may have different ways of getting there, but we're all committed working together at some level. So I'm stoked. >> Great momentum, and you guys doing some great work, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> And you know it's working when I get focused, hey can you, so and so, I'm like, oh yeah, no problem, oh wow, they're big time now, you guys are big time. Congratulations. >> Thank you, it's in phase one now, like we have the right people at the table >> Don't screw it up! (John and Chris laugh) As they say. It's on yours. Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, the hottest area of Linux Foundation right now, a lot of action on cloud, cloud-native developers where DevOps is meeting, lot of progress in application development. Still, they're really only two years old, get involved, more inclusion the better. It's theCUBE, Cube coverage of CNCF. We'll be in Austin in December. >> Chris: Yep, six to eight. >> December 6 to 8, we'll be there live. More live coverage coming back in Los Angeles here for the Open Source Summit North America after this short break.

(relaxing guitar music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, this is CUBE's live coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, as part of the Linux Foundation I'm here with Stu Miniman, co-host now to Wikibon. [Unintelligible] Technical product marketing for Linux containers with Red Hat, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate Red Hat has been, again, the gold standard when it comes to Open Source, this conference really is about Linux, so you can't go any further than to look at the shining example of success that is Red Hat. From when I was growing up, back in the day, when Open Source was radical, Tier 2, Tier 3 some would argue, alternative to the big boys who were the proprietary operating systems. Now, Tier 1, well documented, don't need to recycle all that, but the fact is, Rell is a Tier 1, supports multiple, seven, ten, how many years now has support Rell, is it over twelve? >> Yeah, we're 15 years of Red Hat Enterprise Linux at this point. >> Oh yeah, come on, John, remember when Red Hat Advance Server came out in, what was that, 2002, 2001, turned into Rell eventually. John, I was working for an infrastructure company and keepingupwiththecolonel.org was a total nightmare, and it needed some adult supervision, and that's what Red Hat brought. >> Yeah, of course, Stu, and this is well-known, every bang, this is Tier 1, is part of the operational infrastructure, so it's got to be stable, but now you've got all this growth going on, certainly we heard Zemlin talking about it on [Unintelligible] he's the Executive Director, saying, look it, we're going to have potentially by 2026 400 million libraries in Open Source. So certainly the Open Source realm is growing. >> Sure. >> Operating systems still has got to power all these applications and see what the best of both worlds, you want the stability foundational aspect of the operating system, while still encouraging experimentation, failure, growth, iteration, so Agile and DevOps Ethos is about Open Source, it is about trying it, same time you got to keep the lights on, they want downtime. What's your reaction, how do you guys look at that going forward? You want to enable more, but you don't want to break stuff. >> Yeah, I mean, that's really kind of one of the hearts of most of our customers' problems right, is if you put it in terms of spend, 75-80% of what people spend money on in IT right now, is keeping the lights on. That's really long-term not sustainable. Right, for anybody involved. So one of the things that we need to do, as an operating system, and as a... Broader than an just an operating system as a distribution, where customers come to us and not want just OS bits, but they also want tooling and application components. How do we draw that line between things that move a little bit faster and upstream, that are popular and people want and need access to, at the same time providing that really long-term, stable system user space that really shouldn't change over a long period of time, because that's what provides that sort of application stability that we can ride out over a long period of time. >> Matt, in the Keynote this morning, Jim put out a lot of stats, talking about 10,000 lines of code outed daily. 2,500 lines of code removed daily. 450 organizations contributing, so much going on in the space. What are they working on? What are some of the big issues, because it's stability, we've added growth, sure there's cool things like Coobernetties and containers, I remember that the hot t-shirt at the Red Hat Summit this year was Linux's containers, containers are Linux. So, we know a little bit about that story, so what sort of things is the community working on these days? >> Sure, so like you said, a lot of shiny objects, right? Even those objects, to be honest, they're not that shiny, you look at some of the original support for what's now Linux Containers, we're talking 2006, if you really want to draw the line, 2002, but there's a lot of things going on in new hardware enablement, it's not just new applications that are taking advantage of these different kinds of technologies, we've got new vendors coming out, ARM is about set to take off and add some new challenges and choices to the Enterprise customers. We've got a lot of folks who are working in networking, the networking is stacked within Rell has changed dramatically over the past ten years, and with Open Stack and things that are driving through DPDK, and into virtual functions and things along those lines, there's a lot of core stability and core change and things that we think of as stable over time. >> Matt, isn't some of those new work loads we spent a lot of time this last year hearing about edge computing, IoT, being something that's pretty important going forward, Linux looks like it's going to be a lot of these places, mobile, it's already all there. We talked this morning, 2017's the year of the Linux Desktop, just because there's so many devices now that are Linux, so how does the workload impact that? >> Yeah, so everything these days is really starting to get to the point where almost everything is a distributed workload. We've definitely left the single systems, single workload paradigm, and even the traditional up through the past few years, n-tier, we have app, web, and database, that's really starting to get pushed out across multiple devices. Not only is it getting compute closer to the edge with some of the IT devices, but simply looking at how we do reliability, stability, you mentioned DevOps, that whole ability to move that reliability layer away from relying on expensive components and hardware, or expensive components and software, they really distribute that layer of knowledge that the application and use more replaceable, more commodity sorts of productions. >> Matt, [Unintelligible] operations is, one of my degree in my undergraduate in computer science, and back in the 80s everything was just build your own operating systems, again, this is where systems come back. But even with the Cloud today is really a systems game, and all of us guys and gals from the old days are now in vogue again because the Cloud is an operating system. Now you got sub-systems, you got, maybe it's distributed a little bit more decentralized, but again, it's the same game, different era, if you will. So you're starting to see the absence on operating systems, so the question is Intel and the Grading Table, Paul Merit used to call Intel the hardened top, where a lot of proprietary stuff underneath that crust that no one really cares-- [Audio Cuts Out]

>> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in L.A. for the Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Stu Miniman, my co-host. Our next guest Jim Zemlin, Executive Director of the Linux Foundation, runs the whole show. Welcome back to The Cube, great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you. Runs the whole show is a little bit of an overstatement. >> Well, certainly great keynote up there, I mean, a lot of things coming together. Just some structural things. Let's get the update on what's going on structurally with the Linux Foundation, one, and then two, the keynote today, this morning, really kind of laid out the state of the union, if you will, and all cylinders are pumping, no doubt, on open source. So give the quick update on kind of what's going on with the Linux Foundation and then let's get in some of the trends inside the open source movement. >> Yeah, I mean, our organization has grown quite a bit in the last few years as evident by all the people who are here at this event. But our focus is really on the projects that are important to, you know, the stability, security, and growth of the global internet and of large-scale systems. And when you look at Linux or Node.js or things like our networking projects which are powering the production networks for 3 1/2 billion people, what we're really focused on is making sure those projects are healthy, making sure that they have great developers who write incredible code, that it's used to power things like China Mobile's network or AT&T's production network. And then, those firms are employing the developers who then write more code, you get more solutions, products, services based on Linux or whatever. More reinvestment, lather, rinse, repeat. It's that cycle we're trying to promote. >> So before we get into some of the stats, structurally, I know this show, we've Cube comments out there, clarify the structure. How the shows are rolling out, how are you guys putting together the big-tent events, and how developers can get involved in the specific events across, but now there's a ton of projects. But just at a high level, what's the structure? >> Yeah, so, you know, and I'll throw out a few stats. We have about 25,000 developers that attend all of our events which are all over the world. But we have our Open Source Summit which is really sort of a summit to come together and talk about these big-picture issues around sustainability to allow for cross-project collaboration. We have project-specific events so the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon event which is coming up in Austin which is going to be blow-out, you know, I'm expecting thousands of people. I think probably three, 4,000 people. >> And even more platinum sponsors than I've ever seen on any project before so huge demand. >> It's crazy, yeah. Yeah, you know, get it while it's good, right? All these things kind of go up and down but they're on the upswing. So we have project-specific and then in the networking sector, we have have the Open Networking Summit which is sort of similar to the Open Source Summit but much more focused on networking technology, SDN, and NFD, and that is going to be in L.A. next year and we'll have a U.S. event and then a European and an Asian. >> And this show's purpose is what? How would you position the Open Source Summit? >> The Open Source Summit is where all the projects come together and do cross-pollination. I mean, the idea here is that if you're just always in your silo, you can't actually appreciate what someone else is doing that may improve your project. >> And Jim, there's a couple of events that came together to make this 'cause it was LinuxCon, ContainerCon, and MesosCon is also co-resident so. >> Exactly, so we just decided after a while that all these events could come together and again, this cross-pollination of ideas. >> And they kind of did, they're just different hotels in Seattle last time. >> Yeah, exactly. That's enough, it's just going to be Open Source-- >> It's a big-tent event. >> It's a big-tent event and it really reflects how open source has gone mainstream in a way that I don't think any of us would've predicted even maybe five, six years ago. >> It's pretty massive. Just to quote some stats. 23 million plus open source developers, what you shared onstage there, want to get to your keynote. 41 billion lines of code. 1,000 plus new projects a day. 10,000 new versions pushed per day. 64 million repos on GitHub. Just amazing growth so this kind of points to obviously the rising tide is floating all boats. I made a comment, I tweeted, in the spirit of the joke of standing on the shoulders of giants before you, it's like, what shoulders are we standing on now? Because there's so many projects. Is there going to be like a legacy like the dual-star, badge values, been around for a while? You mentioned old news and you bring up Linus onstage. I mean, some projects are older, more mature, Bruce Wayne, Tier One, meat and potatoes, some got a little bit more flair and fashion to it, if you will. So you got new dynamics going on. Share your thoughts on this. >> Yeah, I mean, it's like the shoulders you're standing on are almost like stage-diving, right? Where it's just lots of people's shoulders that you're really bouncing around on. But the idea here, and what we really focus on, is what are the most important projects in the world and how do we make sure we sustain those projects. So those are the ones that you're going to generally see focused on here. Like, you know, if you've got two people contributing to one small repo for a very small project, that's probably not something that's going to be super high-profile here. But what we're trying to do is bring together sort of the big projects and also the key contributors. You know, if you look at the distribution of contribution, and this is the thing, I think, if you're a developer listening to something like this, someone who gives just one commit to a project to solve some kind of problem they might have, that's the vast majority of people. Somebody who does maybe five to 10 commits, you know, a little bit less, quite a bit less. The vast majority of code, people who give 25 or more commits to a project, small group of folks, they're here. >> I know Stu wants to ask a question, one final question on the growth 'cause this kind of reminds me of sports as we're like the ESPN of tech here for the community. If you look at the growth, you put a slide in there by SourceClear that show the projection, by 2026, at 400 million libraries, putting it today around, I think, 64 million. This is going to be like an owners meeting. It's kind of like they get together, this event because you are going to have so many projects 'cause this is kind of the vibe you got going on in here. The scale is massive, this is going to be almost like the owners meeting, the teams. Expansion's going to be coming, you have to deal with that, that's challenging. >> We're ready to grow, I mean, we've been working on systems and staffing and processes to help scale with that. You know, we take seriously that that code runs modern society. It keeps us private or doesn't as we saw with the Equifax hack which was a CVE in an open source project and we want to be ready to up our game. Let's say we could have secure coding class at this very event for the greatest developers who are working on our most important projects in the world. Would that make all of our lives better? Yes, absolutely. >> Yes, absolutely would. Yeah and you want to enable that, that's where you're going. >> That's exactly where we're going. >> Jim, the quote that jumped out at me that you gave in the keynote was, projects with sustainable ecosystems are the ones that matter. How do we balance all this? I heard in, you know, Linus's Q and A it was, look, individual's important but companies are important. You put up a slide and said, there's thousands and thousands of projects, sometimes we're going to get some really awesome stuff from three people contributing code versus the massive ecosystem with all the platinum providers so, it's always in technology, it's an and and it's very nuanced but how do we get our arms around this? How do we know where to focus? >> It's worth going back in time to understand where the future is going and study innovation theory, you know, Eric von Hippel at MIT, or Karim Lakhani at Harvard Business School. And you look at the framework, which is, you have corporations who underwrite a lot of development by hiring developers who have an equal importance in this and then users of that software. So those are your main constituents and sometimes they're the same people, right, or the same things. They're not mutually exclusive, they're actually self-reinforcing if you get the formula right and you make sure that the project is in good shape so that it gives confidence to industry or society that, hey, we can count on that. I think Heartbleed and OpenSSL maybe rattled people's cages like, hey, can we count on, not just this project, but can we count on open source period? So we spent a ton of time working with that project to provide them millions in resources, audited their code, expanded their testing, and we learned a hell of a lot about how to support these communities in the most important developer projects in the world and create that positive feedback loop, that's what we're doing. >> Yeah and Jim, it's, as an analyst, one of the things we're always asked is, right, how do I choose the right technology? Whereas companies now are contributing here so it's not just I'm putting dollars in, I'm putting manpower into this. And the foundations sometimes get a lot of lung from people, saying it's like, oh well, people throw money and what do they get out of it? I liked what I heard today, you talking about this cycle, and maybe talk to our audience a little bit about CHAOSS which I though was a nice, tongue-in-cheek acronym to say how you're actually going to bring order to the chaos that we see in the open source world. >> I'm going to come to this but I want to answer one quick question about the roles of organizations like ours. We are the roadies, the supporting cast, and the plumbers and the janitors of the system that keep things going but the real rock stars are the developers. If you think about it, Linux is worth $10 billion. An average kernel developer makes probably, let's say $150,000 a year, by the way, they make more than your average developer because they're in such high demand. The role of organizations like ours is such a tiny fraction financially of what is really fueling this model but it's an important one. What we ask ourselves all the time is, why do you need us? Who cares, right? Like, throw your code up on GitHub, you don't need the Linux Foundation, right? Why do we even exist? And the answer is to do things like this Community Health Analytics for Open Source Software, to provide the infrastructure for sustainability. Sustainability is something that we need to measure, right? How many developers are contributing to a project? Are they from a diverse community so that if one group goes away, there'll be somebody else there to do that work? How much test coverage do they have? Are there code quality metrics that we could look at? Do they have security practices like a responsible disclosure policy, a security mailing list? Have they recently fuzzed their code? Are they a community that's welcoming for people of different backgrounds? And so on and so forth. If you don't have a healthy project, you kind of don't want to bet your company on this project by using it in a production system, right? But here's the interesting thing, how many people are using that code in production also is a metric for health, right? Because that's where the reinvestment is going to come in the form of developers who are working on it. >> There's a difference between being proactive and jamming something down someone's throat. So you're taking an approach, if I get this right, to be kind of the same open source ethos, use some KPIs, key performance indicators, to give them a sense of success. But it's not an edict saying-- >> No, no, it can't be an edict. What you want to do is preserve the organic innovation that goes on in open source and get projects to go, and you'll notice that curve of sort of value to volume goes up and to the left, we could've written it to the right but, you know, the whole copyleft thing we love. How do you get that organic innovation to kind of go from this small project up and to the left? How do you capture that? Well, give tools to everyone so that they can better self-analyze. >> John: You get exponential growth with that. >> Exactly. >> If you try to control, it's linear but you bring it to the community, you get exponential growth. >> Exactly, so we studied a ton of innovation theory, we looked at how we could build frameworks to facilitate this kind of form of mass innovation and so that's where tools like CHAOSS which is being worked on by Red Hat and a lot of companies who want to figure out which project should I work on? How can I spot that one earlier? And we're excited about it. >> You know, I always joke, being the old guy that I am, in the late '80s, early '90s, '80s particularly when I was coding. We did everything, we wrote all the code. You bring up an interesting stat and you put the finger on, at least for me, and I think this is where a lot of us old timers who had to do all the libraries from scratch. You mentioned the code sandwich, the code club, the club sandwich, how code's being made and the interesting thing, as you point out, 90% of most great software is done with open source where the 10% innovation is done with original code or original content, if you will, and that that is the norm. So open source is now called the code sandwich because you can put your differentiation and that's a good use of time. >> That's the meat, right. >> That's the meat, it's not a wish sandwich to use the old Blues Brothers example but I mean look, the thing is is that that's dynamic is real, the code is leverageable, and that this is the dynamic so where'd the number come from? Because that seems really high to me but I love it. >> So that number came from a combination of Sonatype, SourceClear, and other organizations that monitor commercial reuse of software on a global basis. So these are the folks who are actually working with commercial industry to look at the makeup of their code, basically. You don't have to go far to look at a Node.js developer, they're using Node.js, they're taking packages out of NPM, and they're writing, they're cut and paste masters, but they write this critical component that's the meat of their application, it's what they do. >> But that's the innovation fabric that's happening. >> It also is a requirement because let's look at a modern, luxury vehicle today. It has 100 million lines of code in it. That's more than an F-35, like, fighter jet. That's an unbelievable amount of code. Toyota, who we work with, and you know, our AGL, our Automotive Grade Linux, is in their Camry. They couldn't write that code on their own. It's just too much. And this is how we get to autonomous vehicle control and things like that. >> I know you got a tight schedule, I want to make one more comment, get your reaction to it. I made a tweet and said, it's open bar in open source and with a reference to all the goodness being donated by companies, Google TensorFlow, there's a lot of other things coming in, these libraries. A lot of people are bringing really, really big IP to the table, IoT, and I kind of made an open remark 'cause a lot of the young kids, they think this is normal, like, well it's going to get better. Keep on drinking that open source. Is this normal? Is it going to be more like this in the future? Because you have essentially real intellectual property, like say from Google, being given to the open source communities as a gift for innovation. I mean, that is just unprecedented greatness. >> The reason for that is they're not doing it necessarily altruistically although I think you can take it that way, they're doing it in a way that betters themselves and others at the same time. I mean, it is a form of collective capitalism where they've realized, my value's over here, it is better for me to collaborate on underlying infrastructure software that my customers don't care about that's not critical to my system but I absolutely have to have and I'm going to focus on data or I'm going to focus on much higher-level innovation. And what that's doing is creating this hockey stick of innovation where, as we share more and more and more infrastructure software, and as that keeps moving up and up the stack, we all benefit. >> So in the theory of the management, bring up management theory, their theory, I'd love to get your thoughts on, is that they're betting on scale rather than trying to go for profits in the short-term, they'd much rather share intellectual property on the back-end value of scale and scale's the new competitive advantage. >> Exactly, take Kubernetes as an example. The fact that, today, and just even a couple years ago this wasn't known, we didn't quite know where this was going to be, but today you can take Node.js, build a container, you know, take an application, throw it into a container, and use Kubernetes to run it on Azure, Amazon, Google, or in a private cloud. That definition, the ability to do that, unlocks this massive developer productivity which creates more value which is more business opportunity for all these guys. You know, they're not doing it 'cause they're nice people, they're doing it 'cause they're unlocking market potential. >> And they're the real rock stars. Jim you're doing a great job. Congratulations on your success. You got a lot of growth in front of you, a lot of challenges and opportunities certainly with that and of course, the tech athletes out there doing the coding, they're the real rock stars, they're the real athletes. Of course, we get more on The Cube, thanks for your support with The Cube as well, appreciate that. >> Jim: Thank you, thanks for everything. >> Alright, this is live coverage from Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, California. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.