>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Dockercon live 2020. Brought to you by, Docker, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to the DockerCon 2020, #DockerCon20. This is The Cube virtual coverage with Docker on their event here. And we're in the studio in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE, we're here with a great guest to talk about Docker Desktop, the Microsoft relationship, and the key news that's coming out. Ben De St Paer-Gotch is the product manager for Docker Desktop. Ben, great for coming on, thanks for spending the time with me. >> Thanks for having me, I really appreciate it. >> So obviously, this is a virtual conference, we wish we could be in person, but given the state of affairs we're going to do remotely, but the momentum Docker has is phenomenal, it's always been great with containers. It's the number one downloaded app around for developers. Microsoft just had their Build conference, which was again virtual as well, or digital, as they say, it's interchangeable. But clear momentum now with Docker as containers actually is the standard, you guys are doing great. What's the key news out of the Microsoft world for people who missed it last week with MS Build? >> Yeah, so last year at Build, Microsoft announced WSO2 to the Windows subsystem with Linux two. (mumbles) The mapping between the windows (mumbles) Which, went really well but it just didn't provide the same centered needed Linux experience. Last year, they announced Windows subsystem Linux two, (Provides an actual Linux one on windows machine, and we've been working hard with Microsoft over the last year to integrate proper desktop as a main desktop application for working with containers with WSO2. A build this year, Microsoft has gone on and announced that WSO2 is going to have a few new features, and it's going to have new features. (mumbles) Mention Linux graphical, Linux applications, you can access the file system, the installation is going to become a slicker which I guess I'm the most excited about that pitch. But the most exciting announcement is, they will be bringing GPU support to WSO2 which means that we will be able to provide and give you support through Docker desktop or container workloads that peoples are working on. And now we're launching Gray and Agua through containers and docks and desktops and Windows which is really cool because we haven't been able to do that before. >> So is this the first GPU support on Microsoft Windows for Docker, with Docker? >> It's, yeah, it's the first GPU Support for Docker Desktop or Mac or Windows. So, previously the hypervisor hasn't passed through the GPU, pretty much, which meant that we couldn't access it from Docker desktop. So Docker desktop isn't about a lightweight VM we sorts of plumb all that in for you. But we're limited about what we could get access to from the hypervisor, Microsoft putting this through and giving us access for the first time, we can actually, we can go. >> Not to go on a side tangent here, but you know, all these virtual events, and I was watching some of the build stuff as well, as well as us immediate streamers and doing stuff, you can see people's home rigs. And you talk to any Developer, video streamer, or anyone who is working remotely, if you don't have the best GPU's in there, I mean, this has just become, I mean, quite frankly, you need the GPU's. So this is important, it's not only from a vanity standpoint performance. Having that support, I'm going to want the best GPU's, I'm always going to be upgrading my machine for that extra power. What's the impact? What does it mean for me as a Developer? Does it increase stuff? What's the bottom line? >> As a Developer, it means you actually have access to it. So, especially when you're doing workloads on the CPU, you've got minimum amounts of power utilization you can do. When you're running workloads for an L Development, you have a lot of power up process you've got to log, to do your mobile training. So, in an element cycle, you're likely to have your application which you're going to use to produce a modeling, you're going to have training data. Taking that training data and producing a model requires lots of panel processing which is an enormous calculations in producing with finer waitings. Doing that on a CPU has to be done on a serial fashion rather than parallel, which is huge and intensive and takes a really long time. Whereas on a GPU, you can do all of that in parallel which massively reduces the amount of time it will take to run those training functions. Either just straight up in Linux or running them in a container, which as the more of people are looking at running container with workloads, it's how I first, the first team that I was on actually used Docker. I was working in Amazon Alexa, and my team picked up the opportunity to run our workload in container. And that was my first experience, so even though my team backed down, so I could see the system. >> Yeah, ML workloads automations could be critical of that performance. Okay, let's get into some of the momentum with Microsoft, you guys have obviously, builds over, we're here now at DockerCon, there's news. Could you share some of the tidbits for what's being talked about now with Docker and DockerCon. >> Yeah, absolutely, so, along with everything else we've been doing, we've been partnering with Microsoft trying to make the best experience generally with Docker desktop, and with WSO2 and with the VSCO. I've been working closely with Microsoft guys to actually try and improve our experience in Windows as it is today, and to improve some of those integrations with VSCO, and also working with the VSCO team on the Docker plugin for VSCO to give our feedback, and to hear feedback from those guys on the errors and issues they're seeing with Docker desktop and to really try to produce the best experience we can on Windows. End to end, from very front end running all the way through that first push, that first run on the cloud using Docker. >> So what is some of the new product management processes and customer support things that you guys are doing? This comes up a lot, obviously, we had a great conversation around shift left with security. That's great news there. You start to see a lot of this added value for Developers, wanted their support right? So how do I get things I need, and from a customer standpoint? It's kind of a moving train this world and it's only getting better and better from a Developer standpoint. But there's more complexity, it's got to be abstract the way you've got, you know, this new abstraction layers developing. You've got a lot of automation. How does the customer get the support they need in the same agile way that Developers are cranking out code? >> It's a really good question, it's something I think we're still working on as well. So, we're trying to working out and one of the big things I'm trying to work out is, how to make it easier for people to get started with Docker, and how do we also make sure with the things we build, we don't leave a cliff edge instead of a lining path. You don't get to a certain point in an easy process, and then the next step, takes you straight off a cliff, so that's not useful for anyone. So, producing those parts and those ways for people to learn and actually progress is something we're really trying to work out. How to make it natural from the first experience all the way through. From an actual support perspective, the other thing we're looking at, is we're trying to do more things in the open. We're really trying at Docker to bring as many of the new features and pieces we're developing which we have to do that in the open with community visibility, so that if people really want it fixed, they can open the PR and they can help us out. And then the last thing that my team really stood out was our Docker of having actions. As creators, someone already finished, could you do this? Someone else had a PR and emerged it. So, to a certain extent, you've got your one side which had you on board and this ever growth spiral and you keep learning. The other side is how'd you fix the board when you find an issue? In that one, we're really trying to work with the community, a lot more than we have in the last couple of years. >> Awesome, some folks watching, hit him up on Twitter, he's the Product Manager for Docker Desktop among other things. You guys are very transparent, you've got your Twitter handle on the lower third. People can chime in or just jump on the chat, we'll follow up and get you the info. Final question for you Ben, as you look at this reality we're in, there's kind of a holistic kind of moment now where people kind of realizing the new realities here. You're looking at the.. you get the keys to the kingdom with Docker Desktop, okay. You got some momentum with Microsoft, the developer role is moving fast and fast as the head room increases for capabilities with automation. And I know you mentioned a few of those things. GPU is now available. What's the future look like for these Developers? The next short, medium and long term? What's your view as you look out over the landscape because you've got to look at the product roadmap, your engagement with the community. Can you share some insight into how you're thinking about Docker Desktop going forward? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think what really interesting point as you say, which is that, if you look at sort of a lot of the Developer side of things that have sort of come out in the last like six months, six to eighteen months. The things I see, I see daily like you mention, things like orchestrating for containers gaining momentum. If you think about crossing the Kaizen model, we're just passed the early Dockers now. We're kind of into the early majority, but we're going to start to move over the next few years into the late majority. What that really means is that people here have been using one of two of these technologies. Maybe you've been using cloud, maybe you've been using Edge, maybe you've been using containers, maybe you've been using CICD, maybe you are using Expiration, maybe you're not. Maybe you've got a Microservice application, maybe it's a little bit of a mole rat. What we're really going to see is, you're going to start to see, all of these changes intersecting and overlapping. And people who have started to pick up model two of these will start to pick up all of them. And that's probably going to happen as we move into the majority of users. So from a what's coming instead of a lot of those thing that you see in best practice in the ideal Developer setup, so a beautiful CICD, a more of an orchestrated environment, Microservice architecture, we're going to see a lot more of that becoming the norm. But I think along with that, we'll also see a level of recognition coming along that a single Microservice alone doesn't provide value. And that's it's going to be some of those groups of services that will provide the user outcome. And that's where my focus is at the end which is you know, an authentication service is great but it doesn't provide value unless you give access to something as authentic. >> It's been issued that the new Docker is all about Developer experience. This is really the core mission. I mean, since the sale of the piece of morantis, Docker has retrenched and reinvented, but stayed core to its principles. Just share with the Developers who've been watching that are coming back into the ecosystem, what is this new Docker vibe? Share your thoughts. >> The new Docker vibe is about working in the open, and it's about solving problems for Developments. The original goal of Docker was to make it easy to pack and ship. It was to reduce Developer friction. As we move more into, sort of, the enterprise space, we worry more about Ops and DevOps. We're not trying to re-focus on Developer and if you sort of think there's two parts to the Developer life cycle, where you've got your work, where you're doing your creative work, where you're writing code. And then you've sort of got your part of the inner loop. And then you've got your part where you're trying to get that code out to production, you're trying to get your value to someone else. Instead of your outer loop, we're really trying to focus on the inner loop And sort of our mantra is that any bit for a Developer should spend as much as their time as possible creating new and exciting things and we're onto those holes that reduce those boring, Monday, repetitive tasks, that we're really trying to work out how we take those boring repetitive pieces and how do we make them just vanish like magic from new users or how do we reduce the friction for the experience from users? From both desktop and hub, we're really trying to bring those two together to achieve that. >> You know what's great about folks who have been in the class since day one. All of us have scar tissue experiences, you know the one thing that's constant is constant change. And one of the things that you guys have done at Docker, and hats off to the whole, you know, original team, is that brand of Docker has symbolized quality openness, and set the standard, I mean, if you look back and containers were really coming around, it's not a new concept. But Docker really set the industry on this path and it's been great to follow every DockerCon at TheCube coverage, but more importantly, as the demand for Developers to build these next wave of Cambrian explosion of applications. It's going to be more important than ever to have more of these abstractions, more of these tools in this real time, more Developers experience because there's more building going on. And it's not just one cloud, it's all clouds, it's all things. >> Yeah, I think it was like when IDC analyzed the future report a couple years ago, I think it was maybe the 2018 one. They said that maybe 2017. They said to date, we've built 500 millions applications worldwide and by 2023, we'll build another 500 million. The rate of creation is just insane, it's exponential growth of us producing more and more applications and connecting more and more devices to do them. The sheer volume of creation and the rate of new technology supporting, even with the rate of companies adopting, I guess more of a warm cloud. I think it's like 60 percent of companies are now more than one cloud provider. Maybe even more, maybe it's like 80 percent. It's ridiculous. >> I was just having this debate on Twitter about this multi-cloud. Someone tried to call us out saying, "Oh you guys were pooing on multi-cloud in 2016 and 18." I go "Look at, no one was Pooping on multi-cloud, it didn't exist." I had multiple clouds but there was no real use case. Now you're starting to see the use cases, where yeah, I had multiple clouds and I got Azure here, I got this over here. But no one wakes up and spreads their workloads wrong. This is going back a few years. Certainly the hybrid was developing, but I think now you're starting to see with networking and some of these inter-operable dynamics, you start to see innovation pockets in wide spaces in large market opportunities for start-ups and companies to thread the clouds together at the right place. So I think multi-cloud is becoming apparent from a use case stand point. Still a ton of work to do, I mean direct connects, got SLA's, I mean all kinds of stuff at the networking level but it is real. It's going to be one of those realities that everyone has, at least one or two, if not three. It could be optimization, this is what Developers do right? Solve problems. >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean if nothing else, I've encounter a couple of companies even just where redundancy is handled by multi-cloud strategy. If you want to achieve more nines and you're just balancing workloads between two clouds. >> I mean, the Zoom news was really a testament to that because everyone got into a twist over that. Oh Zoom moves off Amazon, no they didn't move off Amazon, they went to Oracle, they got Adge, they're everywhere. Why wouldn't they be? They need to pass it, they fail over, they need fall tolerance, I mean, these are basic distributing computing concepts that is one on one. You've got to have these co-locations. And optimization for those clouds and the apps on Microsoft as well, so why wouldn't you do it? >> Exactly. And that's that hybrid, that multi-cloud, compounding that some of which you said earlier, that over changes when you're looking at how you go to CICD, how you're bundling these applications, creating more applications than ever. Coming back, sort of, with more AI workloads, much like GPU and you combine that with, sort of, last in the growth of age devices as well. It sort of makes for a really interesting future. And Docker is sort of, that summation SOV, what we're using to frame how we're thinking about our product and what we should be building. >> Great, for the audience out there, hit him up on Twitter, Ben's available, they're out in the open, if you're interested in how Docker makes life easier on the Windows platform, with the GPU support, they've got security now built in, shifting left. Give these guys a call and of course, we love the mission, out in the open. It's theCUBE's mission as well and great to chat with you. Ben, thanks for spending the time with me today. >> Been an absolute pleasure, thank you for having me. >> Okay, just TheCube's coverage, the virtual Cube with DockerCon co-creating together out in the open. DockerCon20, #Docker20, I'm John Fer with TheCube, stay tuned for our next segment, and thanks for watching. (ambient music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, welcome back to our DockerCon 2020 DockerCon 20 coverage this is theCUBE virtual here in the Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew, I'm John Furrier your host, got two great guests here. Scott Johnson is the CEO of Docker and Peter McKay CEO of Snyk hot security startup with some big news, you guys have rolled out, but really it's got an impact to developers. Scott and Peter great to see you guys again. >> Great to see John. >> Good to see you John. I'm glad we can at least talk remotely. I wish we were face to face, but obviously we're living in a time of crisis were you starting to see a Cambrian explosion starting to emerge where all people are recognizing that a lot is going to come out of this. You guys have announced a strategic alliance. Can you guys take a minute to explain what is this alliance and what does it mean ? Scott, we'll start with you. >> Absolutely, and thank you, Peter, thank you, John, for this chance to share with you all that's going on it's very exciting. Look, what we saw together as teams, both, both Peter's and ours was the developer experience is getting better and better in terms of faster and faster iterations but we weren't in the world of the Docker Desktop and Docker Hub experience having kind of scary as a first pass citizen that was really right in front and center with developer workflow. And so in working with Peter's team, we realized that the two companies had the same vision of like, let's bring that developer for security just right in center, in the user experience in the command line, in the tooling and just make it natural. So that developers could continue to iterate rapidly, continue to ship value, ship features fast. But in addition to doing that, do so in a secure fashion and in a secure manner. And really that's what this partnership is about is making security just kind of built in natural developer friendly developer first. We're very very excited to partner with Snyk and then bring this to development community. >> Peter, you guys have a unique business model, you're developer first security. What does this mean to you? Docker has got millions of developers out there who know containers, there's certainly developer first. What does this alliance mean to you guys as Snyk? >> Yeah, when you think of the developer community, you think of Docker, I mean, that's when we looked at the front end of our funnel, the people who we go after and our users, it's developers, and when you think developers, you think Docker and so we've got... Scott and I got together I'd say four or five months ago where we started talking about building a tighter relationship together the synergies between what he was doing and the team was doing, we're doing at Docker. And what we were trying to do is kind of embed the developer experience and develope and integrate security into that really made a very compelling value proposition together for developers and embedding that security into that application development into your containers and your image and your application development life cycle just made it a better developer experience overall. >> We've been talking to a lot of developers, certainly for DockerCon and just outside of the industry anecdotally, is that Docker really revolutionized, container ideas has been such a great win for developers. Containerizing applications really has changed the game, has spawned the generation of Kubernetes and cloud native microservices. What specifically is going on with you guys in this partnership? Where's the security fit in because can I just do a scan and scan the vulnerabilities? I mean, what's unique here? What does this mean for developers? What's going on with the alliance? >> Yeah, I'll take it first, Peter, but then jump in. So John, in the history of application development, so often security is not addressed until the end. And so developers they're shipping rapidly. They're they're iterating quickly, but then it gets, right before production and the alarm goes off and security team swoops in and security is often seen as a point of friction or a way to delay applications from getting the market and delivering value quickly. And this partnership completely reverses that where instead of having security be further down the stream of the tool chain or the application development life cycle, we're pulling it right up in front and having it be right alongside all the other activities that a developer is doing around building their code around, testing their code around, running their code locally. And it's the whole shift left I'm mean I'm sure you've seen out there and we are shifting this as far left it can be where it's right there on the local Docker Desktop in the command line as a primary emotion and its primary tool to building a great secure application as any other aspect of the tool chain. And that was really the focus of the partnership, which is like, make this just native and as far left as possible and not make security an afterthought or something that gets taken place by other Ops people downstream. >> Peter. >> If you think can about... That's the whole concept of how Snyk was founded. We all came from an application security background where it was security tools for security people, and it really... The whole industry needed this fundamental shift in the approach. And as Scott said that whole shifting left concept to really scale security in the right way and is to embed it into that application development life cycle into embedded into the tools that developers use each and every day. So they wanted to be a security expert, a developer doesn't need to be someone who knows all the vulnerabilities, they just need to know how to develop the most creative, indeed the most agile organization to develop, much better applications. And if they can do it in a more secure way they would obviously do it, but don't make them do something dramatically different and don't ask them to be security experts. And that's what we've tried to do in the partnership with Docker allows us to embed that continuous security insights into that whole development loop to when they develop these applications, they're secure when they're done and all the way through that development life cycle, you're testing for vulnerabilities in auto remediating along the way. So it allows them to develop very creative at the pace in which they want to develop. And it makes them more secure by doing it. >> Yeah, let me pick up on Peter's point there, which is so often security has been something that's discovered late in the process, right? Either just before production or sometimes even in production. And then just think about that feedback loop. It's got to go all the way back upstream all the way to the element team developers got to go find what they're working on. Well, maybe not hours ago, it could have been days ago could even be weeks ago and then both figure out how to remediate, get it all the way through the inner loop and the outer loop. We're completely blowing that up and disrupting that by bringing it all the way forward such that the feedback is right then and there with the developer in the moment on the laptop, in their inner loop and giving them the immediate response that they need and the single they need to take action remediate and then move on to the next creative thing they can do is they're just thinking about shortening that whole feedback loop. And really as Peter said, building security in from the get go because the signal is there to give them a indication of what they need to do right then and there. >> Great, I want to get into the... I mean, I can see the workflow advantage, so I totally get that. I've heard on theCUBE many times that security has got to be built in from the beginning. We've heard that before many times, I don't think I've heard security discussed this way, combined with the trends arounds automation. So can you guys talk about how that fits in? Because I get shifting left all that workflow, all goodness. But now I'm assuming there's a whole op side of security. And then if I'm trying to automate things and that's the real trend we're seeing here, how does that all work? Does that all come together? And it's this kind of unique that you guys are doing? Can you unpack that a little bit and clarify? >> Yeah, I mean, this has been something that we've been focused on quite a bit. I mean, the first it's... Used to be that you used to find a lot of vulnerability and yes we find a lot of vulnerabilities. And what we tried to do is focused on the prioritization and really hear the critical ones that developers need to fix first, second, third, and fourth based on severity. And we build that all in and that's something that we learned that we built into the process. And then last phase is this auto remediation. To the extent we can auto correct and auto fix, which is becoming increasingly a bigger part because the more you learn about the vulnerabilities in some of the fixes, the more you can automate and remediate that just makes the whole development process that much more productive and efficient. And that's really what we're trying to do, not only just find vulnerabilities, prioritize them, what are the ones that are what the team feels as severity one twos and threes embed that into the process. So you fix these are the ones you're fixing first, second, and third, into the extent they could be auto remediated, then fix them automatically. So we're trying to build that increasingly into the application. >> So, is this the first secure containerization deployment model? I mean, have other people have been doing this? I mean, is this new to Docker new to the industry? What's what's going on? >> Well, so we're here to talk about the partnership and of course there's a wealth of a very active ecosystem in and around security and other spaces. But we think this is the first that brings it this close to the developer in the moment in the command line on the desktop. And thus we think it has a lot of value to offer development team. >> I'll put my developer hat on. I'm one of the millions of developers, containers are part of my daily design coding, What's in it for me? Why does it matter to me as a developer? What does it do for me? Save time? What's the impact for the developer? >> Well, you think about... I mean, just look at the old model, right? The old model is you develop an application, you send it to the security team and they'll audit it. They'll tell you all the vulnerabilities and then they'll ship it back to you. You fix it, then they'll check it again. And they were waiting in the queue and then they'll tell you what's wrong and they'll send it back and think of that long. It's just like... Can you remember in the early day, when they a quality issue, fix it earlier in the life cycle of an application, don't wait till the end where the quality is embedded into the process. And so what you find is, the developers are embracing this and we have our like Docker, you have a freemium where developers can try it and realize that look, and I'm going to have to do security anyway, I mean, I have to develop secure application. If I can use a tool that's built for me and embedded into my development life cycle so I don't have to be a security expert and I don't have to wait for the security teams, to tell me what's wrong. And I can embed this all the way through and then not have to go through that painful step at the very end, to go through that security audit. I would do that any day of the week-- >> (mumbles) it back to you, do the scans, "Hey, you got to fix this." And then developer Scott your point moves on. They're coding, right? I mean, that's a problem. >> Developers want to ship, right? I mean, going back to your point, John, like one of the revolutions of Docker is that it is given the expectation that developers can ship faster. And right now in much of the state of the state, because security is important, like it can serve as a gate. And as Peter just walked you through it can slow down developer shipping and having impact. And so for you, the developer, John, like this gives you freedom to ship early often, high-frequency everything the promise of the container development model. This really unleashes that. >> Yeah 'cause that rails around the security policies too allows them to be projected in as syntax, if you will, or as part of the coding environment so I don't have to worry about it. I mean, at the end of the day, it's peace of mind, more than anything, time is certainly a pain in the butt, but yeah, as a developer, the creativity we needed more than ever. Okay, so with the COVID crisis-- >> One last point I want to make on that, sorry, it's also the security teams want it to because they don't want to be the bottleneck. They don't want to be doing this at the last minute and having all the pressure on them. I mean, they know that a big chunk of their business is going through these applications. So a lot of the budget dollars that come from people buying Snyk and embedding it into the process is from security because they can't keep up this digital transformation and what companies are going through. They don't want to be, there's one of two things. Either they're going to be the bottleneck or the developers are going to go around them and just put an application in the cloud in it and ship the container, put it anywhere then going around security. So they don't want that either. So there's just a very tight alignment between developers want to ship fast and security teams want to do the same. >> I hate to say it, but the whole agility is now not only just normal for us insiders in the industry. It's proven now with this COVID crisis that you have to be fast, you have to be at scale. And I think this speaks to some of the experiences you guys had in the industry, you were talking earlier. If you're not moving at the pace that you need to move at the scale you need the automation it's proven cloud native is going is completely ratified in my mind. There's no doubt, that means microservices is front and center and this change that's happening right now. And when we come out of this pandemic, there's going to be growth winners and not growth winners. We flat line to decline or winners, and it's all going to be based on microservices. So for the developers out there going to be called into the office as someday or in a Zoom, let's get these apps double down on this, kill that project. There's going to be those conversations >> It's happening right now, John. So look, what's happening, as a result of COVID an entire bodies of human activity are shifting from offline online. Like social, consumer, B2B, healthcare going down the list, finance, commerce, retail, like massive tectonic shift going from offline online. That means massive demand for new applications, new application development, and quickly, some this shift is happening and there's a bunch of businesses that didn't have exposure to digital they're like, "Oh my goodness, I need a digital strategy. "I need a digital channel. "I need a digital revenue stream." And so the demand for new applications quickly is exploding through the roof. And we see this across the board in our industry right now which is very, very fortunate given the other circumstances and other industries, but you're absolutely right. Like this lets them ship faster. And now is the time when they need to ship and ship fast. >> And the budgets are going to be allocated on these new projects was just a nuance in your point, it's new projects and then there's fixing modernizing the old stuff. Because look at Walmart, Walmart got hamstrung on the eCommerce side, they just killed their jet acquisition. They spent $3 billion on, this is the reality. This is not like just a strategy to do innovation, innovation strategy or some walk down, digital transformation lane. This is happening, it has to be done. What do they do? >> Its interesting and it starts, we always say, we start with the new and replaced the old. We start with a new application, it usually is always the case where we usually start with a lot of the companies is a new (mumbles) on application. And then it expands from there. And so know you look at what you used to be the best practices were tech companies, and then it moved to financial services, industries and insurance and then in retail, now you look at manufacturing, you look across the board, as Scott said, this offline to online, is driving so much of the empowering developers to take on more responsibility and to own more of it, but to be faster and to be more agile. And that's really, what's driving this big shifts in the market. And like you said earlier, if they're not there, they're in trouble because this market is driving that direction. >> I want to get both of your comments on this final question, because even with the progression of the developers from the Steve bomber developer development developers, speech on YouTube to developers on the front lines, cloud native, and now today it's been a progression. And I think it's always been the developers on the front lines are getting closer to the front lines. I think now it's even more compelling because there's a scale and agility speed game going on. So I think it's just another step function, developer relevance. It's not so much, they've never been close to, they have been getting closer they're in the business conversation and the ones that could move fast are the ones going to deliver the value. So if automation is in the playbook, if cloud need is not in the playbook, this is going to be the new developer equation, the ones that meet that will be successful. Can you guys react to that and your thoughts? >> Go ahead Peter. >> I mean, I think what we're trying to do is make that developer experience just one from just the partnership with Docker and is a key, just making it really easy, do the integration, do a lot of the work, make the developer experience as seamless as possible, make it very efficient for them, make it easy for them to try and buy, make it just a great experience and allow them to, or empower them to take on more of the responsibility of getting that App published and in the containers out the door. And that's what we're excited about with the partnership with Docker is that with the number of developers that they have, the work that we do together, and the roadmap that we have is really making that experience just an incredible journey for our developer and that's what we want to continue to make sure we foster. >> Scott, the new relevance of developers, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I would only--building on Peter's point, observed that a lot of the developer expectations are informed by the stack and what's possible. And to your points earlier about the previous waves, John, like, developers are important, but their full potential if you will was perhaps muted or gated because there was not a clean abstraction between the application on the underlying infrastructure. And now, as we know, Dockerization and the surrounding ecosystem of Kubernetes and other tools, we have a much cleaner separation between the Application and the infrastructure, and that allows and set expectations for a much higher cadence of release much faster, time to value, much more agile operations in terms of responding to competitors and the market and your customers. And so with that expectation, how do you unleash that? And this partnership is really key to that, by taking the friction out. As we talked about kind of historical security models and bringing a new model that bring the security way left right into the developers around that experience. And then in some sense, really fulfills that ability to move quickly, react in an agile fashion and have an impact as quickly as possible. >> That's awesome security built into the workflow, automated industry first, guys thanks so much for a great partnership, but the final work at the plugin for the relationship going forward, how's that work is going to be available is integration code is it development? Give a quick plug for what's happening, the relationship and what's happening going forward? >> Look, Docker only succeeds if the ecosystem succeeds. and we're very very proud and humbled to join arms with Peter and the Snyk team as a partner in the security ecosystem. And so you'll see us not only in this integrated developer experience on the command line, which is going to be very, very valuable to developers that we've been talking about, but you'll see us out there promoting the solution in different forms and community groups. And so it doesn't stop and end with the DockerCon experience, look for us in the year ahead to do more and more together. >> Awesome. >> I agree and I think that just culturally and the way the organizations work really well together, I think this is a beginning of a longer journey and a longer partnership we're going to have together with Scott and the team, so we're excited. I think the validation, the early validation we've got from the development teams that we've been talking to around the world, I think there's tremendous desire for this to happen, and we're excited to launch the journey together, with Scott and team. >> It's been a lot of fun watching this progression, like you said, create that headroom, the developable, we'll take it right up and there'll be another step function, more progression. Great job guys. Congratulations on the great partnership >> We need to security built in, we need more creativity. We need that, we need this new modern era to be flourishing. Thanks for your time, appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> theCUBE coverage, virtual CUBE coverage of DockerCon 20. I'm John Furrier your host, along with Docker for DockerCon 20 #Docker 20. Thanks for watching and stay tuned for our next segment of DockerCon 20 virtual. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Dockercon Live 2020, brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Everyone welcome back to Dockercon 2020, #Docker20. This is theCUBE and Docker's coverage of Dockercon 20. I'm John Furrier in the Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew, we got a great interview segment here and big news around developer workflow code to cloud. We've got Amanda Silver, Corporate Vice President, product for developer tools at Microsoft and Scott Johnson, the CEO of Docker. Scott had a great Keynote talking about this relationship news has hit about the extension of the Microsoft partnership. So congratulations, Amanda, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Amanda, tell us about what your role is at Microsoft. You guys are well known in the developer community. You had to develop a ecosystem even when I was in college going way back. Very modern now, the cloud is the key, code to cloud, that's the theme. Tell us about your role at Microsoft. >> Yeah, so I basically run the product, Product Design and User Research team that works on our developer tools at Microsoft. And so that includes the Visual Studio product as well as Visual Studio code that's become pretty popular in the last few years but it also includes things like the dotNET runtime and the TypeScript programming language, as well as all of our Azure tooling. >> What's your thoughts on the relationship with Docker? Obviously the news extension of an existing relationship, Microsoft's got a lot of tools, you got a lot of things you guys are doing, bringing the cloud to every business. Tell us about your thoughts on this relationship with Docker? >> Yeah well, we're very excited about the partnership for sure. Our goal is really to make sure that Azure is a fantastic place where all developers can kind of bring their code and they feel welcome. They feel natural. We really see a unique opportunity to make the experience really great for the Docker community by creating more integrated and seamless experience across Docker desktop, Windows and Visual Studio and we really appreciate how Docker has kind of, supported our Windows ecosystem to run in Docker as well. >> Scott, this relationship and an extension with Microsoft is really, I think, impressive and also notable because Microsoft's got so many tools out there and they have so successful with Azure. You guys have been so successful with your developer community but this also is a reflective of the new Docker. Can you share your thoughts on how this partnership with Microsoft, extending the way it is, with the growth of the cloud is a reflection of the new Docker? >> Yeah, absolutely John, it's a great question. One of the things that we've really been focused on since November is fully embracing the ecosystem and all the partnerships and all the possibilities of that ecosystem and part of that is just reality that we're a smaller company now and we can't do it all, nor should we do it all. Part of it's the reality that developers love choice and no one's going to change their minds on choice, and third is just acknowledging that there's so much creativity and so much energy outside the four walls of Docker that we'd be silly not to take advantage of that and welcome it and embrace it and provide that as a phenomenal experience for our developers. So this is a great example of that. The Snyk partnership we announced last week is a great example of that and you're going to see many more partnerships like this going forward that are reflective of exactly this point. >> You've been a visionary on the product side, interviewed before. Also deploying is more important than ever, that whole workflow simplifying, it's not getting complex, people want choice, building code, managing code, deploying code. This has been a big focus of yours. Can you just share your thoughts on where Microsoft comes in? Because they got stuff too, you've got stuff, it all works together. What's your thoughts? >> Right, so it needs to work together because developers want to focus on their app. They don't want to focus on duct taping and stringing together different siloed pools. So you can see in the demo and you'll see in demonstrations later throughout the conference, just the seamless experience that a developer gets in the Docker command line inner operating with Visual Studio Code, with the Docker command line and then deploying to Azure and what's wonderful about the partnership is that both parties put real engineering effort and design effort into making it a great experience. So a lot of the complexities around configuration, around default settings, around security, user management, all of that is abstracted out and taken away from the developers so they can focus on applications and getting those applications deployed to the cloud as quickly as possible. Getting their apps from code to cloud is the watchword or the call to action for this partnership and we think we've really hit it out of the park with the integration that you saw. >> Great validation in the critical part of the workflow you guys been part of. Amanda, we're living in a time we're doing these remote interviews. The COVID crisis has shown the productivity gains of working at home and working, sheltering in place but it also has highlighted the focus of developers, mainly who have also worked at home. They're been kind of used to this, you see the rigs. I saw at Microsoft build some amazing rigs from the studio, so these guys streaming their code demos. This is a Cambrian explosion of new kinds of productivity. You got the world's getting more complex at scale. This is what cloud does. What's your thoughts on this? 'Cause the tooling, there's more tools than ever, right? >> Yeah. >> I still got to deploy code. It's got to be more agile, it's got to be faster, it's got to be at scale. This is what you guys believe in. What's your thinking on all these tooling and abstraction layers? And the end of the day, developers still got to do their job. >> Yeah, well, absolutely. And now even more than ever, I think we've certainly seen over the past few months, a more rapid acceleration of digital transformation that has really happened in the past few years. Paper processes are now becoming digital processes all of a sudden. Everybody needs to work and learn from home and so there's just this rapid acceleration to kind of move everything to support our new remote first lifestyle. But even more so, we now have remote development teams actually working from home as well in a variety of different kinds of environments, whether they're using their own personal machine to connect to their infrastructure or they're using a work issued machine. It's more important than ever that developers are productive but they are productive as a team. Software is a team sport, we all need to be able to work together and to be able to collaborate. And one of the most important aspects of agility for developers is consistency. And what Docker really enables with containerization, is to make the infrastructure consistent and repeatable so that as developers are moving through the lifecycle from their local desktop and developing on their local desktop, to a test environment and to staging and to production, it's really, it's infrastructure for developers as well as operations. And so, that infrastructure, that's completely customizable for what the developers operating system of choice is, what their app stack is, all of those dependencies kind of running together. And so that's what really enables developers to be really agile and have a really fast iteration cycle but also to have that consistency across all of their development team. And we now need to think about things like, how are we actually going to bring on interns for the summer and make sure that they can actually set up their developer boxes in a consistent way that we can actually support them and things like Docker really help with that. >> As your container instances and Visual Studio cloud that you guys have has had great success. There's a mix and match formula here and the other day, developers want to ship the code. What's the message that you guys are sending here with this because I think productivity is one, simplification is the other but as developers, we're on the front lines and they're shipping in real time. This is a big part of the value proposition that you guys bringing to the table. >> Yeah, the core message is that any developer and their code is welcome (laughs) and that we really want to support them, empower them and increase their velocity and the impact that they can have. And so, having things like the fact that the Docker CLI is natively integrated into the Azure experience is a really important aspect of making sure that developers are feeling welcome and feeling comfortable. And now that the Docker CLI tools that are part of Docker desktop have access to native commands that work well with Azure container instances, Azure container instances, if anybody is unfamiliar with that, is the simplest and fastest way to kind of set up containers in Azure and so we believe that developers have really been looking for a really simple way to kind of get containers on Azure and now we have that really consistent experience across our servers, services and our tools. Visual Studio code and Visual Studio extensions make full use of Docker desktop and the Docker CLI so that they can get that combination of the productivity and the power that they're looking for. And in fact, we've integrated these as a design point since very early on in our partnership when we've been partnering with Docker for quite a while. >> Amanda, I want to ask you about the tool chain. We've heard about workflows, making it simpler. Bottom line from a developer standpoint, what's the bottom line for me? What does this mean to me, everyday developer out there? >> I really think it means, your productivity on your terms. And so, Microsoft has been a developer company since the very beginning with Bill Gates and GW Basic. And it's actually similar for Docker. They really have a developer first point of view, which certainly speaks to my heart and so one of the things that we're really trying to do with Docker is to make sure that we can create a workflow that's super productive at every stage of the developer experience, no matter which stack they're actually targeting, whether there's targeting Node or Python, or dotNET and C Sharp or Java, we really want to make sure that we have a super simple experience that you can actually initiate all of these commands, create Docker container images and use the Docker compose files. And then, just kind of do that consistently, as you're deploying it all the way up into your infrastructure in Azure. And the other thing that we really want to make sure is that that even post deployment, you can actually inspect and diagnose these containers and images without having to leave the tool. So we also think about the process of writing the code but also the process of kind of managing the code and remediating issues that might come up in production. And so we really want you to be able to look at containers up in the Azure, that are deployed into Azure and make sure that they're running and healthy and that if something's wrong, that you can actually open up a shell and be in an interactive mode and be able to look at the logs from those containers and even inspect one to see environment variables or other details. >> Yeah, that's awesome. Writing code, managing code and then you got to deploy, right? So what I've been loving about the past generation of Agile is deployment's been faster to play off all the time. Scott, this brings up that the ease of use but you'll want to actually leverage automation. This is the trend that you want to get into. You want to make it easy to write code, manage code but during the deployment phase, that's a big innovation. That's the last point, making that better and stronger. What's your thoughts on simplifying that? >> Well, as a big part of this partnership, John, that Docker and Microsoft embarked on, as you saw from the demo in the keynote, all within the Docker command line, the developer's able to do it in two simple commands, deploy an app, define and compose from their desktop to Azure. And there's a whole slew of automation and pre-configured smart defaults or sane defaults that have gone on behind the scenes and it a lot of hardcore engineering work on part of Docker-Microsoft together to simplify that and make that easy. And that goes exactly to your point, which is, the simpler you can make it, make an abstract way to kind of underline plumbing and infrastructure, the faster Devs can get their application from code to cloud. >> Scott, you've been a product CEO, you've been a product person now you're the CEO but you have a product back when you've been involved with a relationship with Microsoft for a long time. What's the state of the market right now? I see Microsoft has evolved because just the performance, corporate performance, the shift to the cloud has been phenomenal. Now developers getting more empowered, there's more demand for the pressure to put developers to do more and more creativity. So you've seen this evolve, this relationship, what does it mean? >> Yeah, it's honestly a wonderful question, John and I want to thank Amanda and the entire Microsoft team for being long standing partners with us on this journey. So it might not be known to everyone on today's day's event but Microsoft came to the very first Dockercon event way back in June 2014 and I had the privilege of greeting them and welcoming them and then they were full on, ready to see what all the excitement about Docker was about and really embraced it. And you mentioned kind of openness in Microsoft's growth over time in that dimension and we think Docker, together with Microsoft have really shown what an open developer community can do. That started back in 2014 and then we embarked on an open source collaboration around the Docker command line of the Docker engine, bringing that Docker engine from Linux and now moving it to Windows applications. And so all the sudden the promise of write once and use the same primitives, the same formats, the same command lines, as you can with Linux onto Windows applications, we brought that promise to the market. And it's been an ongoing journey together with Microsoft on open standards base, developer facing friendliness, ease of use, fast time to deploy and this partnership that we announced yesterday and we highlighted at the keynote is just another example of that ongoing relationship, laser-like focused on developer productivity and helping teams build great apps. >> Why do you like Azure in the cloud for Docker? Can you share why? >> Well, as Amanda has been sharing, it's super focused on, what are the needs of developers to help them continue to stay focused on their apps and not have their cognitive load burdened by other aspects of getting their apps to the cloud and Azure does a phenomenal job of simplifying and providing sane defaults out of the box. And as we've been talking about, it's also very open to partner integrations like the one we've announced yesterday and highlighted that make it just easy for development teams to choose their tools and build their apps and deploy them onto Azure as quickly as possible. So it's a phenomenal platform for developers and we're very excited and proud to partner with Microsoft on it. >> Amanda on your side, I see Docker's got millions of developers. you guys got millions of developers even more. How do you see the developers in Microsoft's side engaging with Docker desktop and Docker hub? Where does it all fit? I mentioned earlier how I see Docker context really improving the way that individuals and teams work with their environments in making sure that they're consistent but I think this really comes together as we work with Docker desktop and Docker Hub. When developers sign in to Docker Hub from Docker desktop, everything kind of lights up and so they can see all of the images in their repositories and they can also see the cloud environments that they're running them in. And so, once you sign into the Hub, you can see all the contexts that map to the logical environments they have access to, like Dev, NQA and maybe staging. And another use case that's really important is that we can access the same integration environment. So, I can have microservices that I've been working on but I can also see microservices that my teammates and their logs from the services that they've been working on, which I think is really great and certainly helps with team productivity. The other thing too, is that this also really helps with hybrid cloud deployments, where, you might have some on-premises hosted containers and you might have some that's hosted in a public cloud. And so you can see all of those things through your Docker Hub. >> Well, I got to say, I love the code to cloud tagline, I think that's very relevant and catchy. And I think, I guess to me what I'm seeing and I'd love to get your thoughts, Amanda on this is you oversee a key part of Microsoft's business that's important for developers, just the vibe and people are amped up right now. I know people are tensed, anxiety with the COVID-19 crisis but I think people are generally agreeing that this is going to be a massive inflection point for just more headroom needed for developers to accelerate their value on the front lines. What's your personal take on this? You've seen these waves before but now in this time, what are you most excited about? What are you optimistic about? What's your view on the opportunities? Can you share your thoughts, because people are going to get back to work. They're working now remotely but if we go back to hybrid world, they're going to be jamming on projects. >> Yeah, for sure but people are jamming on projects right now and I think that in a lot of ways, developers are first responders in that they are... Developers are always trying to support somebody else. We're trying to support somebody else's workflow and so we have examples of people who are creating new remote systems to be able to schedule meetings in hospitals for the doctors who are actually the first responders taking care of patients but at the end of the day, it's the developer who's actually creating that solution. And so we're being called to duty right now and so we need to make sure that we're actually there to support the needs of our users and that we're basically cranking on code as fast as we can. And to be able to do that, we have to make sure that every developer is empowered and they can move quickly but also that they can collaborate really quickly. And so I think that Docker Hub, Docker kind of helps you ensure that you have that consistency but you also have that connection to the infrastructure that's hosted by your your organization. >> I think you nailed, that's amazing insight. I think that's... The current situation in the community matters because there's a lot of frontline work being done to your point but then we got to rebuild, the modernization is happening as well coming out of this so there's going to be that. And there's a lot of camaraderie going on and massive community involvement I'm seeing more of. The empathy but also now there's going to be the building, the creation, the new creation. So, Scott, this is going to call for more simplicity and to abstract away the complexities. This is the core issue. >> Well, that's exactly right. And it is time to build and we're going to build our way out of this and it is the community that's responding. And so in some sense, Microsoft and Docker are there to support that moory energy and give them the tools to go and identify and have an impact as quickly as possible. I referenced in the keynote, completely bottoms up organic adoption of Docker desktop and Docker Hub in racing to provide solutions against the COVID-19 virus. It's a war against this pandemic that is heavily dependent on applications and data. And there's over 200 projects, community projects on Docker Hub today, where you've got tools and containers and data analysis all in service to the COVID-19 battle that's being fought. And then as you said, John, as we get through the other side, there's entire industries that are completely rethinking their approach that were largely offline before but now see the imperative and the importance of going online. And that tectonic shift, nearly overnight of offline to online behavior and commerce and social and going down the list, that requires new application development. And I'm very pleased about this partnership is that together, we're giving developers the tools to really take advantage of that opportunity and go and build our way out of it. >> Well, Scott, congratulations on a great extended partnership with Microsoft and the Docker brand. I'm a big fan from day one. I know you guys have pivoted on a new trajectory, which is phenomenal, very community oriented, very open source, very open. So congratulations on that. Amanda, thanks for spending the time to come on. I'll give you the final word. Take a minute to talk about what's new at Microsoft for the folks that know Microsoft, know they have a developer mindset from day one. Cloud is exploding, code to cloud. What's the update? What's the new narrative? What should people know about Microsoft with developer community? Can you share some data for the folks that aren't in the community or might want to join or the folks in the community who want to get an update? >> Yeah, it's a great kind of question. Right now, I think we are all really focused on making sure that we can empower developers throughout the world and that includes both those who are building solutions for their organizations today but also, I think we're going to end up with a ton of new developers over this next period, who are really entering the workforce and learning to create digital solutions. Overall, there's a massive developer shortage across the world. There's so much opportunity for developers to kind of address a lot of the needs that we're seeing out of organizations, again, across the world. And so I think it's just a really exciting time to be a developer and my only hope is that basically we're building tools that actually enable them to solve the problem. >> Awesome insight, and thank you so much for your time. Code to cloud developers are cranking away, they're the first responders, going to take care of business and then continue to build out the modern applications. And when you have a crisis like this, people cut right through the noise and get right to the tools that matter. So thanks for sharing the Microsoft-Docker partnership and the things that you guys are working on together. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage. We are at Dockercon 2020 Digital. This is theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier, bringing all the action, more coverage. Stay with us for more Dockercon Virtual after this short break. (gentle music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon Live 2020. Really excited to be part of this online event. We've been involved with DockerCon for a long time, of course one of my favorite things is always to be able to talk to the practitioners. Of course we remember for years, Docker exploded onto the marketplace, millions of people downloaded it, using it. So joining me is Hui Xue, who is a Principal Deputy Director of Medical Signal Processing at the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, which is part of the National Institute of Health. Hui, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for inviting me. >> So let's start. Of course, the name of your institute, very specific. I think anyone in the United States knows the NIH. Tell us a little bit about your role there and kind of the scope of what your team covers. >> So I'm basically a researcher and developer of the medical imaging technology. We are the heart, lung and the blood, so we work and focus on imaging the heart. So what we exactly do is to develop the new and novel imaging technology and deploy them to the front of our clinical library, which Docker played an essential role in the process. So, yeah, that's what we do at NHLBI. >> Okay, excellent. So research, you know, of course in the medical field with the global pandemic gets a lot of attention. So you keyed it up there. Let's understand, where does containerization and Docker specifically play into the work that your team is doing? >> So, maybe I'd like to give an example which will suffice. So for example, we're working on the magnetic resonance imaging, MRI. Many of us may may already have been scanned. So we're using MRI to image the heart. What Docker plays, is Docker allow us to deploy our imaging technology to the clinical hospital. So we have a global deployment around 40 hospitals, a bit more, around the world. If we are for example develop a new AI-based image analysis for the heart image, what we do with Docker is we can put our model and software into the Docker so that our collaboration sites, they will pull the software that contains the latest technology, then use them for the patients, of course under the research agreement at NIH. Because Docker is so efficient, available globally, we can actually implement a continuous integration and testing, update the framework based on Docker. Then our collaborators would have the latest technology instead of, you know, in the traditional medical imaging in general, the iteration of technology is pretty slow. But with all this latest technology, and such like container Docker come into the field. It's actually relatively new. In the past two to three years, all these paradigm is, it's changing, certainly very exciting to us. It give us the flexibility we never had before to reach our customers, to reach other people in the world to help them. They also help us so that's a very good experience to have. >> Yeah that's pretty powerful what you're talking about there rather than you know, we install some equipment, who knows how often things get updated, how do you make sure to synchronize between different locations. Obviously the medical field highly regulated and being a government agency, talk a little bit about how you make sure you have the right version control, security is in place, how do all of those things sort out? >> Yes, that's an essential question. So firstly I want to clarify one thing. So it's not NIH who endorse Docker, it's us as researchers. We practiced Docker too and we trust its performance. This container technology is efficient, it's globally available and it's very secure. So all the communication between the container and the imaging equipment is encrypted. We also have all the paperwork it saved to set up to allow us to provide technology to our clinician. When they post the latest software, every version they put up into the Docker went through an automated integration test system. So every time they make a change, the newer version of software runs through a rigorous test, something like 200 gigabytes of data runs through and checked everything is still working. So the basic principle is we don't allow any version of the software to be delivered to customer without testing Docker. Let's say this container technology in general actually is 100% automating all this process, which actually give us a lot of freedom so we have a rather very small team here at NIH. Many people are actually very impressed by how many customer we support within this so small team. So the key reason is because we have a strongly utilized container technology, so its automation is unparalleled, certainly much better than anything I had before using this container technology. So that's actually the key to maintain the quality and the continuous service to our customers. >> Yeah, absolutely. Automation is something we've been talking about in the industry for a long time but if we implement it properly it can have a huge impact. Can you bring us inside a little bit, you know, what tools are you doing? How is that automation set up and managed? And how that fits into the Docker environment. >> So I kind of describe to be more specific. So we are using a continuous testing framework. There are several apps to be using a specific one to build on, which is an open source Python tool, rather small actually. What it can do is, this tool will set up at the service, then this service will watch for example our GitHub repo. Whenever I make a change or someone in the team makes a change for example, fix a bug, add a new feature, or maybe update a new AI model, we push the edge of the GitHub then there's a continuous building system that will notice, it will trigger the integration test run all inside Docker environment. So this is the key. What container technology offers is that we can have 100% reproducible runtime environment for our customers as the software provider, because in our particular use case we don't set up customer with the uniform hardware so they bought their own server around the world, so everyone may have slightly different hardware. We don't want that to get into our software experience. So Docker actually offers us the 100% control of the runtime environment which is very essential if we want to deliver a consistent medical imaging experience because most applications actually it's rather computational intensive, so they don't want something to run for like one minute in one site and maybe three minutes at another site. So what Docker place is that Docker will run all the integration tests. If everything pass then they pack the Docker image then send to the Docker Hub. Then all our collaborators around the world have new image then they will coordinate with them so they will find a proper time to update then they have the newer technology in time. So that's why Docker is such a useful tool for us. >> Yeah, absolutely. Okay, containerization in Docker really transformed the way a lot of those computational solutions happen. I'm wondering if you can explain a little bit more the stack that you're using if people that might not have looked at solutions for a couple of years think oh it's containers, it's dateless architectures, I'm not sure how it fits into my other network environment. Can you tell us what are you doing for the storage in the network? >> So we actually have a rather vertical integration in this medical imaging application, so we build our own service as the software, its backbone is C++ for the higher computational efficiency. There's lots of Python because these days AI model essential. What Docker provides, as I mentioned, uniform always this runtime environment so we have a fixed GCC version then if we want to go into that detail. Specific version of numerical library, certain versions of Python, will be using PyTorch a lot. So that's our AI backbone. Another way of using Docker is actually we deploy the same container into the Microsoft Azure cloud. That's another ability I found out about Docker, so we never need to change anything in our software development process, but the same container I give you must work everywhere on the cloud, on site, for our customers. This actually reduces the development cost, also improve our efficiency a lot. Another important aspect is this actually will improve customers', how do they say it, customer acceptance a lot because they go to one customer, tell them the software you are running is actually running on 30 other sites exactly the same up to the let's say heights there, so it's bit by bit consistent. This actually help us convince many people. Every time when I describe this process I think most people accept the idea. They actually appreciate the way how we deliver software to them because we always can falling back. So yes, here is another aspect. So we have many Docker images that's in the Docker Hub, so if one deployment fails, they can easily falling back. That's actually very important for medical imaging applications that fail because hospitals need to maintain their continuous level of service. So even we want to avoid this completely but yes occasionally, very occasionally, there will be some function not working or some new test case never covered before, then we give them an magnet then, falling back, that's actually also our policy and offered by the container technology. >> Yeah, absolutely. You brought up, many have said that the container is that atomic unit of building block and that portability around any platform environment. What about container orchestration? How are you managing these environments you talked about in the public cloud or in different environments? What are you doing for container orchestration? >> Actually our set-up might be the simplest case. So we basically have a private Docker repo which we paid, actually the Institute has paid. We have something like 50 or 100 private repos, then for every repo we have one specific Docker setup with different software versions of different, for example some image is for PyTorch another for TensorFlow depending on our application. Maybe some customer has the requirement to have rather small Docker image size then they have some trimmed down version of image. In this process, because it's still in a small number like 20, 30 active repo, we are actually managing it semi-automatically so we have the service running to push and pull, and loading back images but we actually configured this process here at the Institute whenever we feel we have something new to offer to the customer. Regarding managing this Docker image, it's actually another aspect for the medical image. So at the customer side, we had a lot of discussion with them for whether we want to set up a continuous automated app, but in the end they decided, they said they'd better have customers involved. Better have some people. So we were finally stopped there by, we noticed customer, there are something new to update then they will decide when to update, how to test. So this is another aspect. Even we have a very high level of confirmation using the container technology, we found it's not 100%. In some site, it's still better have human supervision to help because if the goal is to maintain 100% continuous service then in the end they need some experts on the field to test and verify. So that's how they are in the current stage of deployment of this Docker image. We found it's rather light-weight so even with a few people at NIH in our team, they can manage a rather large network globally, so it's really exciting for us. >> Excellent. Great. I guess final question, give us a little bit of a road map as to, you've already talked about leveraging AI in there, the various pieces, what are you looking for from Docker in the ecosystem, and your solution for the rest of the year? >> I would say the future definitely is on the cloud. One major direction we are trying to push is to go the clinical hospital, linking and use the cloud in building as a routine. So in current status, some of sites, hospital may be very conservative, they are afraid of the security, the connection, all kinds of issues related to cloud. But this scenario is changing rapidly, especially container technology contributes a lot on the cloud. So it makes the whole thing so easy, so reliable. So our next push is to move in lots of the application into the cloud only. So the model will be, for example, we have new AI applications. It may be only available on the cloud. If some customer is waiting to use them they will have to be willing to connect to the cloud and maybe sending data there and receive, for example, the AI apps from our running Docker image in the cloud, but what we need to do is to make the Docker building even more efficiency. Make the computation 100% stable so we can utilize the huge computational power in the cloud. Also the price, so the key here is the price. So if we have one setup in the cloud, a data center for example, we currently maintain two data centers one across Europe, another is in United States. So if we have one data center and 50 hospitals using it every day, then we need the numbers. The average price for one patient comes to a few dollars per patient. So if we consider this medical health care system the costs, the ideal costs of using cloud computing can be truly trivial, but what we can offer to patients and doctor has never happened. The computation you can bring to us is something they never saw before and they never experienced. So I believe that's the future, it's not, the old model is everyone has his own computational server, then maintaining that, it costs a lot of work. Even doctor make the software aspects much easier, but the hardware, someone still need to set-up them. But using cloud will change all of. So I think the next future is definitely to wholly utilize the cloud with the container technology. >> Excellent. Well, we thank you so much. I know everyone appreciates the work your team's doing and absolutely if things can be done to allow scalability and lower cost per patient that would be a huge benefit. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, stay tuned for lots more coverage from theCUBE at DockerCon Live 2020. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the view with digital coverage of Docker con live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >>LeBron. Welcome back to DockerCon 2020 hashtag Docker 20 this is the cube and Dockers coverage of Docker con 20 I'm Sean for you and the Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew. We've got a great interview segment here in big news around developer workflow code to cloud. We've got Amanda silver corporate vice president, product for developer tools at Microsoft and Scott Johnson, the CEO of Docker. Scott had a great keynote talking about this relationship news has hit about the extension of the Microsoft partnership. So congratulations Amanda. Welcome to the cube. >>Thanks for having me. >>Amanda, tell us a bit about what your role is at Microsoft. You guys are well known in the developer community to develop an ecosystem when even when I was in college going way back, very modern. Now cloud is, is the key code to cloud. That's the theme. Tell us about your role at Microsoft. >>Yeah. So I basically run the product, uh, product design and user research team that works on our developer tools that Microsoft and so that includes the visual studio product as well as visual studio code. Um, that's become pretty popular in the last few years, but it also includes things like the.net runtime and the TypeScript programming language as well as all of our Azure tooling. >>What's your thoughts on the relationship with Docker? I'll show you the news extension of an existing relationship. Microsoft's got a lot of tools. You've got a lot of things you guys are doing, bringing the cloud to every business. Tell us about your thoughts on this relationship with Donker. >>Yeah, well we're very excited about the partnership for sure. Um, you know, our goal is really to make sure that Azure is a fantastic place where all developers can kind of bring their code and they feel welcome. They feel natural. Uh, we really see a unique opportunity to make the experience really great for Docker, for the Docker community by creating more integrated and seamless experience across Docker, desktop windows and visual studio. And we really appreciate how, how Docker is kind of, you know, supported our windows ecosystem to run in Docker as well. >>Scott, this relationship and an extension with Microsoft is really, uh, I think impressive and also notable because Microsoft's got so many, so many tools out there and they have so successful with Azure. You guys have been so successful with your developer community, but this also is reflective of the new Docker. Uh, could you share your thoughts on how this partnership with Microsoft extending the way it is with the growth of the cloud is a reflection of the new Docker? >>Yeah, absolutely. John's great question. One of the things that we've really been focused on since November is fully embracing the ecosystem and all the partnerships and all the possibilities of that ecosystem. And part of that is just reality. That we're a smaller company now and we can't do it all, nor should we do it all. Part of us. The reality that developers love voice and no one's gonna change their minds on choice. And third is just acknowledging that there's so much creativity and so much energy. The four walls of Docker that we'd be building, not the big advantage of that and welcome it and embrace it and provide that as a phenomenal experience part of Alfred's. So this is a great example of that. The sneak partnership we announced last week is a grant to have that and you're going to see many more of uh, partnerships like this going forward that are reflective of exactly this point. >>You've been a visionary on the product side of the interviewed before. Also deploying is more important than ever. That whole workflow, simplifying, it's not getting complex. People want choice, building code, managing code, deploying code. This has been a big focus of yours. Can you just share your thoughts on where Microsoft comes in because they got stuff too. You've got stuff, it all works together. What's your thoughts? >>Right? So it needs to work together, right? Because developers want to focus on their app. They don't want to focus on duct taping and springing together different siloed pools, right? So you can see in the demo and you'll see in, uh, demonstrations later throughout the conference. Just the seamless experience that a developer gets in the document man line inter-operating with visual studio code with the Docker command line and then deploying to Azure and what's what's wonderful about the partnership is that both parties put real engineering effort and design effort into making it a great experience. So a lot of the complexities around the figuration around default settings around uh, security, user management, all of that is abstracted out and taken away from the developer so they can focus on applications and getting those applications deployed to the proudest quickly as possible. Getting their app from code to cloud is the wok word or the or the call to action for this partnership. And we think we really hit it out of the park with the integration that you saw, >>Great validation and a critical part of the workflow. You guys have been part of Amanda, we're living in a time we're doing these remote interviews. The coven crisis has shown the productivity gains of working at home and working in sheltering in place, but also as highlighted, the focus of developers mainly who have also worked at home. They've kind of used to this. Do you see the rigs? I saw her at Microsoft build some amazing rigs from the studio. So these guys streaming their code demos. This is, um, a Cambrin explosion of new kinds of productivity. And yet the world's getting more complex at scale. This is what cloud does. What's your thoughts on this? Cause the tooling is more tools than ever, right? So I still gotta deploy code. It's gotta be more agile. It's gotta be faster. It's gotta be at scale. This is what you guys believe in. What's your thinking on all these tooling and abstraction layers and the end of the day, don't you still got to do their job? >>Yeah, well, absolutely. And now, even more than ever. I mean, I think we've, we've certainly seen over the past few months, uh, uh, a more rapid acceleration of digital transformation. And it's really happened in the past few years. Uh, you know, paper processes are now becoming digit digital processes. All of a sudden, you know, everybody needs to work and learn from home. And so there's just this rapid acceleration to kind of move everything to support our new remote lifestyle. Um, but even more so, you know, we now have remote development teams actually working from home as well in a variety of different kinds of, uh, environments. Whether they're using their own personal machine to connect to their infrastructure or they're using a work issued machine. You know, it's more important than ever that developers are productive, but they are productive as a team. Right? Software is a team sport. >>We all need to be able to work together and to be able to collaborate. And one of the most important aspects of agility for developers is consistency. And, uh, what Docker really enables is, uh, with, with containerization is to make the infrastructure consistent and repeatable so that as developers are moving through the life cycle from their local, local dev desktop and developing on their local desktop to a test environment and to staging and to production, it's really, it's infrastructure of or, or developers as well as operations. And so it's that, that infrastructure that's completely customizable for what the developer's operating system of choices, what their app stack is, all of those dependencies kind of running together. And so that's what really enables developers to be really agile and have a really, really fast iteration cycle but also to have that consistency across all of their development team. And you know, we, we now need to think about things like how are we actually going to bring on interns for the summer, uh, and make sure that they can actually set up their developer boxes in a consistent way that we can actually support them. And things like Docker really helped with that >>As your container instances and a visual studio cloud that you guys have has had great success. Um, there's a mix and match formula here. At the end of the day, developers want to ship the code. What's the message that you guys are sending here with this? Because I think productivity is one, simplification is the other, but as developers on the front lines and they're shipping in real time, this is a big part of the value proposition that you guys are bringing to the table. >>Yeah, I mean the, the core message is that any developer and their code is welcome, uh, and that we really want to support them and power them and increase their velocity and the impact that they can have. Um, and so, you know, having things like the fact that the Docker CLI is natively integrated into the Azure experience, uh, is a really important aspect of making sure that developers are feeling welcome and feeling comfortable. Um, and now that the Docker CLI tools are, that are part of Docker desktop, have access to native commands that work well with Azure container instances. Uh, Azure container instances, if anybody's on familiar with that, uh, is the simplest and fastest way to kind of set up containers and Azure. And, and so we believe that developers have really been looking for a really simple way to kind of get containers on Azure. And now we that really consistent experience across our service services and our tools and visual studio code and visual studio extensions make full use of Docker desktop and the Docker CLI so that they can get that combination of the productivity and the power that they're looking for. And in fact, we've, we've integrated these as a design point since very early on in our partnership when we've been partnering with, with Docker for quite a while. >>Amanda, I want to ask you about the, the, the, the tool chain. We've heard about workflows, making it simpler, bottom line, from a developer standpoint, what's the bottom line for me? What does this mean to me? Uh, every day developer out there? >>Um, I, I mean, I really think it means you know, your productivity on your terms. Um, and so, you know, Microsoft has been a developer company since the very, very beginning with, you know, bill Gates and, and, uh, GW basic. Um, and it's actually similar for Docker, right? They really have a developer first point of view, uh, which certainly speaks to my heart. And so one of the things that we're really trying to do with, with Docker is to make sure that we can create a workflow that's super productive at every stage of the developer experience, no matter which stack they're actually targeting, whether there's targeting node or Python or.net and C-sharp or Java. Uh, we really want to make sure that we have a super simple experience that you can actually initiate all of these commands, create, you know, Docker container images and use the compose Docker compose files. >>Um, and then, you know, just kind of do that consistently as you're deploying it all the way up into your infrastructure in Azure. And the other thing that we really want to make sure is that that even post deployment, you can actually inspect and diagnose these containers and images without having to leave the tool. Um, so we, we also think about the process of writing the code, but also the process of kind of managing the code and remediating issues that might come up in production. And so, you know, we really want you to be able to look at containers up in the Azure. Uh, up that are deployed into Azure and make sure that they're running and healthy and that if there, if something's wrong, that you can actually open up a shell and be in an interactive mode and be able to look at the logs from those containers and even inspect when to see environment variables or other details. >>Yeah, that's awesome. You know, writing code, managing code, and then you've got to deploy, right? So what I've been loving about the, the past generation of agile is deployment's been fast to deploy all the time. Scott, this brings up that the ease of use, but you want to actually leverage automation. This is the trend that you want to get in. You want, you don't want, you want to make it easy to write code, manage code. But during the deployment phase, that's a big innovation. That's the last point. Making that better and stronger. What's your thoughts on simplifying that? >>So that was a big part of this partnership, John, that the Docker in Microsoft embarked on and as you saw from the demo and the keynote, um, all within the man line, the developers able to do in two simple commands, deploy an app, uh, defining compose from the desktop to Azure and there's a whole slew of automation and pre-configured smart defaults or sane defaults that have gone on behind the scenes and that took a lot of hardcore engineering work on part of Docker and Microsoft together to simplify that and make that easy and that, that goes exactly to your point. We just like the simpler you can make it more, you can abstract a way to kind of underlying plumbing and infrastructure. The faster devs can get there. Their application from code to cloud. >>Scott, you've been a product CEO, you've been a product person, a CEO, but you have a product background. You've been involved with the relationship with Microsoft for a long time. What's the state of the market right now? I mean, obviously Microsoft has evolved. Look at just the performance corporate performance. The shift to the cloud has been phenomenal. Now developers getting more empowered, there's more demand for the pressure to put on developers to do more and more, more creativity. So you've seen this evolve, this relationship, what does it mean? >>Yeah, it's honestly a wonderful question, John. And I want to thank Amanda and the entire Microsoft team for being long standing partners with us on this journey. So it's might not be known to everyone on today's, uh, day's event. But Microsoft came to the very first Docker con event, uh, way back in June, 2014 and I had the privilege of, of reading them and welcoming them and they're, they were full on ready to see what all the excitement about Docker was about and really embrace it. And you mentioned kind of openness and Microsoft's growth over that, uh, over time in that dimension. And we think kind of Docker together with Microsoft have really shown what an open developer community can do. And that started back in 2014 and then we embarked on an open source collaboration around the Docker command line of the Docker engine, bringing that Docker engine from Linux and now moving it to windows applications. And so all of a sudden the promise of right ones and use the same primitives, the same formats, the same fan lines, uh, as you can with Linux onto windows applications. We brought that promise to the market and it's been an ongoing journey together with Microsoft of open standards based, developer facing friendliness, ease of use, fast time to deploy. And this, this partnership that we announced yesterday and we highlighted at the keynote is just another example of that ongoing relationship laser like focused on developer productivity and helping teams build great apps. >>Why do you like Azure in the cloud for Docker? Can you share why? >>Well, it's as Amanda has been sharing, it's super focused on what are the needs of developers to help them continue to stay focused on their apps and not have their cognitive load burdened by other aspects of getting their apps to the cloud. And Azure, phenomenal job of simplifying and providing sane defaults out of the box. And as we've been talking about, it's also very open to partner like the one we've announced >>Yesterday and highlighted, you know, but >>Uh, make it just easy for development teams to choose their tools and build their apps and deploy them onto Azure. It's possible. So, uh, it's, it's a phenomenal plan, one for developers and we're very excited and proud of partner with Microsoft on it. >>Amanda, on your side, I see DACA has got millions of developers. You guys got millions of developers even more. How do you see the developers in Microsoft side engaging with Docker desktop and Docker hub? Where does it all fit? >>I think it's a great question. I mean, I mentioned earlier how the Docker context can help individuals and teams kind of work in their environments work. Let me try that over. I mentioned earlier how I, how I see Docker context really improving the way that individuals and teams work with their environments and making sure that they're consistent. But I think this really comes together as we work with Docker desktop and Docker hub. Uh, when developers sign into Docker hub from Docker desktop, everything kind of lights up. And so they can see all of the images in their repositories and they can also see the cloud environments they're running them in. And so, you know, once you sign into the hub, you can see all the contexts that map to the logical environments that they have access to like dev and QA and maybe staging. And another use case that's really important is that, you know, we can access the same integration environment. >>So, so I could have, you know, microservices that I've been working on, but I can also see microservices that my, my teammates and their logs, uh, from the services that they've been working on, which I think is really, really great and certainly helps with, with team productivity. The other thing too is that this also really helps with hybrid cloud deployments, right? Where, you know, you might have some on premises, uh, hosted containers and you might have some that's hosted in a public cloud. And so you can see all of those things, uh, through your Docker hub. >>Well, I got to say I love the code to cloud tagline. I think that's very relevant and, and catchy. Um, and I think, I guess to me what I'm seeing, and I'd love to get your thoughts, Amanda, on this, as you oversee a key part of Microsoft's business that's important for developers, just the vibe and people are amped up right now. I know people are tense and anxiety with the covert 19 crisis, but I think people are generally agreeing that this is going to be a massive inflection point for just more headroom needed for developers to accelerate their value on the front lines. What's your personal take on this and you've seen these ways before, but now in this time, what are you most excited about? What are you optimist about? What's your view on the opportunities? Can you share your thoughts? Because people are going to get back to work or they're working now remotely, but when we go back to hybrid world, they're going to be jamming on projects. >>Yeah, for sure. But I mean, people are jamming on projects right now. And I think that, you know, in a lot of ways, uh, developers are our first responders in, you know, in that they are, developers are always trying to support somebody else, right? We're trying to somebody else's workflow and you know, so we have examples of people who are, uh, creating new remote systems to be able to, uh, schedule meetings in hospitals or the doctors who are actually the first, first responders taking care of patients. But at the end of the day, it's the developer who's actually creating that solution, right? And so we're being called the duty right now. Um, and so we need to make sure that we're actually there to support the needs of our users and that we're, we're basically cranking on code as fast as we can. Uh, and to be able to do that, we have to make sure that every developer is empowered and they can move quickly, but also that they can collaborate freely. And so, uh, I think that, you know, Docker hub Docker kind of helps you ensure that you have that consistency, but you also have that connection to the infrastructure that's hosted by your, your organization. >>I think you nailed that amazing insight. And I think that's, you know, the current situation in the community matters because there's a lot of um, frontline work being done to your point. But then we've got to rebuild. The modernization is happening as well coming out of this. So there's going to be that and there's a lot of comradery going on and massive community involvement. I'm seeing more of, you know, the empathy, but also now there's going to be the building, the creation, the new creation. So Scott, this is going to call for more simplicity and to abstract away the complexities. This is the core issue. >>Well that's exactly right and it is time to build, right? Um, and we're going to build our way out of this. Um, and it is the community that's responding. And so in some sense, Microsoft and Docker are there to support that, that community energy and give them the tools to go. And identify and have an impact as quickly as possible. We have referenced in the keynote, um, completely bottoms up organic adoption of Docker desktop and Docker hub in racing to provide solutions against the COBIT 19 virus. Right? It's a, it's a war against this pandemic that is heavily dependent on applications and data and there's over 200 projects, community projects on Docker hub today where you've got uh, cools and containers and data analysis all in service to the photo at 19 battle that's being fought. And then as you said, John, as we, as we get through this, the other side, there's entire industries that are completely rethinking their approach that were largely offline before that. Now see the imperative and the importance of going online and that tectonic shift nearly overnight of offline to online behavior and commerce and social and go on down the list that requires new application development. And I'm very pleased about this partnership is that together we're giving developers the tools to really take advantage of that opportunity and go and build our way out of it. >>Well, Scott, congratulations on a great extended partnership with Microsoft and the Docker brand. You know, I'm a big fan of from day one. I know you guys have pivoted on a new trajectory which is very community oriented, very open source, very open. So congratulations on that Amanda. Thanks for spending the time to come on. I'll give you the final word. Take a minute to talk about what's new at Microsoft. For the folks that know Microsoft, know they have a developer mindset from day one cloud is exploding code to cloud. What's the update? What's the new narrative? What should people know about Microsoft with developer community? Can you share from some, some, some uh, data for the folks that aren't in the community or might want to join with folks in the community who want to get an update? >>Yeah, it's a, it's a great, great kind of question. I mean, you know, right now I think we are all really focused on making sure that we can empower developers throughout the world and that includes both those who are building solutions for their organizations today. But also I think we're going to end up with a ton of new developers over this next period who are really entering the workforce and uh, and learning to create, you know, digital solutions overall. There's a massive developer shortage across the world. Um, there's so much opportunity for developers to kind of, you know, address a lot of the needs that we're seeing out of organizations again across the world. Um, and so I think it's just a really exciting time to be a developer. Uh, and you know, my, my uh, my only hope is that basically we're, we're building tools that actually enable them to solve problems. >>Awesome insight and thank you so much for your time code to cloud developers are cranking away that the first responders are going to take care of business and then continue to build out the modern applications. And when you have a crisis like this, people cut right through the noise and get right to the tools that matter. So thanks for sharing the Microsoft Docker partnership and the things that you guys are working on together. Thanks for your time. Okay. This is the cubes coverage. We are Docker con 2020 digital is the cube virtual. I'm Sean for bringing all the action. More coverage. Stay with us for more Docker con virtual. After this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage, it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live 2020. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman and two great guests here in the DevNet studio where the theCUBE is sitting all week long, been packed with action, Mandy Whaley, Senior Director Developer Experience, Cisco DevNet and Par Merat, Senior Director welcome back to this CUBE. Good to see you guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Glad to be here. >> So, we have had a lot of history with you guys from day one. >> Mandy: Yes. >> Watching DevNet from an idea of "Hey, we should do developer thing." And you also have DevNet Create which is a separate, more developer focused. DevNet and Cisco's developer environment. We've been there from the beginning, what a progression! Congratulations on the success. >> Thank you. Thank you so much, it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here, you know, learning in the workshops, and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco Live, and At DevNet Create, which you mentioned, which is coming up in March. So its right on the corner. >> DevNet Zone which we're in has been really robust, it's been the talk of the show every year, and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed, because people are learning developers, new developers as well as Cisco engineers who are certified, are coming getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments require new skills. It's a technology shift. >> Yeah, exactly and what we have in the DevNet Zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shifts. So, we have demos around IoT and security, and showing how, you know, to prevent threats from attacking the industrial routers and things like that. We have coding workshops from beginning, intro to Python, intro to Gets, all the way up through advanced, like, Kubernetes topics and things like that. So, people can really dive in with what they're looking for. And this year, we are really excited because we have the new DevNet certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February. So, a lot of people are here saying, "I am ready to skill up for those exams, "I am starting to dive into these topics." >> Well, Susie Wee was on, she's the chief of DevNet, among other things, and she said, there's going to be a DevNet 500. The first 500 certifications of DevNet are going to be, kind of, like, the hall of fame or, you know, inaugural or founder certifications. So, can you explain what does it mean? It's not a DevNet certification badge. It's a series of different, can go deeper than that? >> Yeah, just like we have our, you know, existing Network Certifications which are so respected and loved around the world, people get CCIE tattoos and things. Just like there is an associate and professional and expert level on the networking track, there's now a DevNet Associate, a DevNet Professional and coming soon DevNet Expert. And then there's also Specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation, IoT web access. So, it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software. So they're about 80% software skills, 20% knowledge of networking, and then how you really connect up and down the stack. >> So these are new certifications, they're not replacing anything else >> No, no, no they're all the same stuff? >> They are new, they are part of the same program, they have the same rigor, the same kind of test. They actually have ways to interweave with the existing networking certifications, because we want people to do both skill path, right, to build this new IT team of the future. And so, it's a completely new set of exams. The exams are going to be available to take February 24th, and you can start signing up now. So, with the DevNet 500, you know, that's going to be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get DevNet certifications. It'll be life-time achievement, they'll always be in a DevNet 500, right? And I've had people coming up and telling me, you know "I'm signed up for the first day, "I'm taking my exams on the first day, "I'm trying to get into that." >> Stu and I always want to be on the list, so I think we might be on the 500 study up there (laughs). >> Of course, yeah, And what's really great is with the certifications, we've heard from people in the Zone that, they have been coming and taking classes and learning the skills, but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work, you know, to have that sort of progression. And so with the certifications they will really will have that. And it's also really important for our partners and Par Merat is doing lot of work with certifications and partners. >> Yeah, Par, definitely, I would love to hear a little bit, we've interviewed on theCUBE over the years some of the DevNet partners from a technology standpoint, of course the channel ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business. Give us the update as to, you know, DevNet partnering as well as, what will these certifications mean to about the technology and go-to-market partners? >> Yeah, the wonderful thing about this is, it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software, and making sure that we are providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together. And what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of programmability. And this new DevNet specialization, which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner, allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint, from a recognition standpoint, that as a practice they have these skills. And look, at the end of the day, it's all about delivering what our customers need. And our customers are asking us for significant help in automation, digital transformation, they're trying to drive new business outcomes. And this will provide that recognition on who to partner with in the market. >> Yeah, this is so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the the partner ecosystem build data center practices. Went from the silos and now embracing, you've got the hardware the software, we're talking multicloud. It's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with with where they are going. >> It really is. And another benefit that we are finding in talking to our partners is where packaging this up and rolling it out, is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint, from a practice stand point and from a competitive differentiation standpoint. But it will also help them attract talent. I mean, it's no secret, there is a talent shortage right now. If you talk to any CEO that's top of mind, and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people. Smart people like working on smart things, right? And so this has really been a big traction point for them as well. >> It's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles. So some of the ways that you can combine the new DevNet certifications with the network engineering certifications. We've looked at it and said, you know, there's a role of network automation developer. That's a new role. Everyone we ask in one of our sessions, "Who needs that person on their team?" So many customers, partners raise their hands saying, "We want the Network Automation Developers on our team." And you can combine your CCNP Enterprise with a DevNet certification and build up the skills to be that Network Automation Developers >> Certainly it's been great buzz. I've got to get your guys' thoughts because certainly it's great for careers and you guys are betting on the people, and the people are betting on Cisco. This is what's going on, it's a maturity of DevNet, almost. It's like a pinch-me moment for you guys, but you continue to grow. I've got to ask you, what are some of the cool things that you're showing here? As you mature, you still have the start here session, which is intro to Python and other things, pretty elementary, and then there's more advanced things. What are some of the new things that's going on that you could share? >> So some of the new things we've got going on, one of my favorites is the IoT and security demonstration. There's an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things, and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot arm. And then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access, you know, something that that robot was using, that's getting in the way of it working? So you could detect threats and move forward on that. We also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing, to how you would deploy automation, to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi-domain automation. So really helping engineers, like, look at that whole progression, that's been really popular. >> Par, talk about the specialization, which ones are more, I'd say popular or entry level, which ones are people coming into getting certified first, network engineering, automation first? Or what's the-- >> Yeah, so the program's going to to roll out with three different levels. One is a specialized level, the second is an advanced level, and then we'll look to that third level. Again, they're anchored in the individual certs. And so as we look for that entry level, it's really all about automation, right? I mean, some things you take for granted, but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale, and have repeatable, scalable benefits from that. The second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience, compliance experiences, and then that next level, again, will anchor towards the expert level that's coming out. But one thing I want to point out is, in addition to just having the certified people on staff, they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it. So it's not just enough to say, "I passed an exam." As we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge, they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really, there's a lot behind it. >> So that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if we pass (laughs). >> Well, you might be able to be in the 500 list, but I don't know that theCUBE would end up being specialized. >> It's good banner advertising. No, seriously all fun, it's all fun. Cisco Live in Europe. Is there a difference between European and U.S.? Are you seeing any differences in geographic talent? >> You know what, the first couple of years that we did it, I think there was a bigger difference. It felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the U.S., slightly different in Europe. Last year and this year I feel, like they have converged. It's the same focus on DevOps, automation, security is a huge focus in both places. And it also feels like the interest and level of the people attending has also converged. It's really similar. Congratulations, it's been fun to watch the rise and success of DevNet, continues to be strong, obviously in the hub here, and the DevNet zone behind us, packed sessions. >> Mandy: Yes, yes. >> What's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success, what's jumped out? >> Yeah, I think, you know, one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit. We were hoping it would happen, we just didn't realize it would happen this soon. We're attracting new companies, new partners, so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional VARs. This is also available for our non resellers and we are finding different companies accessing DevNet resources and learning these skills. So that's been a really great benefit of DevNet overall. >> Definitely, my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what they went back and did, and the change that they drove in their company. And I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement, take back some new ideas, really create change, and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them. Those are my favorite surprises. >> And I tell you, we've known for years how important the developer is, but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just, Oh, the developer has some tools that they'd liked in the corner. The developer connected to the business and driving things forward. >> Mandy: Exactly. So perfect timing, congratulations on the certification-- >> The other thing that's been great is that Cisco itself, we now have APIs across the whole portfolio and up and down the stack. So that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers. >> So Cisco is API first company? >> We are building APIs everywhere we can, and the community is taking them and finding creative things to build. >> Well, it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco, but also impact customers has been great to watch. Par many thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. >> theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco Live 2020 I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, Stu Miniman. Be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back, everyone to the Cube's live coverage Day four of four days of wall to wall action here in Barcelona, Spain, for Cisco Live. 2020. I'm John Furrier with my co host Dave Volante, with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco Live. The president of Europe, Middle East Africa and Russia. Francisco Wendy Mars Cube Alumni. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on to. I kind of put a book into the show here. Thanks for joining us. >>It's absolutely great to be here. Thank you. >>So what a transformation. As Cisco's business model of continues to evolve, we've been saying brick by brick, we still think big move coming. I think there's more action. I can sense the walls talking to us like Cisco live in the US and more technical announcement. In the next 24 months, you can see you can see where it's going. It's cloud, it's APS. It's policy based program ability. It's really a whole another business model shift for you and your customers. Technology shift in the business model shift. So I want to get your perspective this year. Opening. Keynote. Oh, you let it off Talking about the philosophy of the business model, but also the first presenter was not a networking guy. It was an application person. App dynamics. Yep, this is a shift. What's going on with Cisco? What's happening? What's the story? >>You know, if if you look for all of the work that we're doing is is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers to change, that's happening in the market and it is all around. You know, if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in, how do they capture that opportunity? How do they use technology to help them? But, you know, if you look at it, really, there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution. It's actually the business operations for for organizations. Plus, there people, they're people in the communities within that those three things working together. And if you look at it with, it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco, that linkage off the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network. And bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insights and the value our customers are looking for. >>You know, we've been talking about the the innovation sandwich, you know, you got data in the middle and you've got technology and applications underneath. That's kind of what's going on here, but I'm glad you brought up the part about business model. This is operations and people in communities. During your keynote, you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars. Yes, people in communities, business model and business operations. There was no 800 series in there. There was no product discussions. This is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing. I tweeted provocatively, the killer wrap in digital business model. Because you think about it. The applications are the business. What's running under the covers is the technology, but it's all shifting and changing, so every single vertical every single business is impacted by. This is not like a certain secular thing in the industry. This is a real change. Can you describe how those three things are operating with that can >>sure. I think if you look from, you know, so thinking through those three areas. If you look at the actual business model itself, our business models is organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers. We are all much more specific about what we want. We have incredible choice in the market. We are more informed than ever before. But also we are interested in the values of the organizations that we're getting the capability from us as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain. So if you look in that business model itself, this is about, you know, organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring, but also that they have a strong, strong focus around the experience, that they're customer gains from an application, a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels, which is at the end of the day, the application. Then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems, the tools, the processes? As we all evolve, our businesses have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that. And then, of course, in driving any transformation, the critical success factor is your people and your culture. You need your teams with you. The way teams operate now is incredibly different. It's no longer command and control. It's agile capability coming together. You need that to deliver on any transformation. Never, never mind. Let it be smooth, you know, in the execution they're all three together. >>But what I like about that model and I have to say, this is, you know, 10 years of doing the Cube, you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens. Not surprising as we entered the last decade, there's a lot of talk about Cloud. Well, it kind of was a good predictor. We heard a lot about digital transformation. A lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword, but we really are. I feel like exiting this cloud era into the digital era. It feels, really, and there are companies that get it and are leaning in. There are others that maybe you're complacent. I'm wondering what you're seeing in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital, every CEO wants to get it right. But there is complacency. Their financial services said Well, I'm doing pretty well, not on my watch. Others say, Hey, we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted. What are you seeing in the region? In terms of that sentiment, >>I would say across the region, you know, there will always be verticals and industries that slightly more advanced than others. But I would say that the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance off transfer. Digital transformation is here. It is affecting my business. I if I don't disrupt, I myself will be disrupted and we challenged Help me. So I You know, I'm not disputing the end state and the guidance and support soon drive the transition and risk mitigated manner, and they're looking for help in that there's actually pressure in the board room now around a what are we doing within within organizations within the enterprise service, right of the public sector, any type of style of company. There's that pressure point in the board room of Come on, we need to move it speed. >>Now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role and contribute. It's not the be all end. All that plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations developing and nurturing communities. Can you add more specifics? What role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three years? >>So I think, you know, if you look at it, technology is fundamental to all of those fears in regard. Teoh Theo innovation that differentiation technology could bring the key challenges. One being able to apply it in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business. So and then the customer's organization. Otherwise, it's technology for the sake of technology. So we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case, the use cases, the way by which that innovation could be used to deliver value to the organization on also different ways by which a company will work. Look at the collaboration Kate Capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility. Look at the the APP D discussion of helping the link the layer of the application into the infrastructure of the network to get to root, cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you actually arises and causes downtime many, many ways. >>I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation. Agile methodology, technology, softer development, No problem check. That's 10 years ago. But business agility is moving from a buzz word to reality. Exactly. That's what you're kind of getting. >>Their teams have. Teams operate, how they work and being able to be quick, efficient, stand up, stand down and operate in that way. >>You know, we were kind of thinking out loud on the Cube and just riffing with Fabio Gori on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with you, Gene Kim around kind of real time. What was interesting is we're like, Okay, it's been 13 years since the iPhone, and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe, Middle East Africa mobility has been around before the iPhone, so more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region. So you you you have a region that's pretty much I think, the tell signs for what's going on North American around the world. And so you think about that. You say Okay, how is value created? How the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay. If the value activities are shifting and being more agile and the economics are changing with SAS, if someone's not on this bandwagon is not an end state discussion, very. It's done Deal. >>Yeah, it's But I think also there were some other conversation which, which are very prevalent here, is in the region so around trust around privacy law, understanding compliance. If you look at data where data resides, portability of that data GDP our came from Europe has pushed out on those conversations will continue as we go over time. And if I also look at, you know, the dialogue that you saw, you know, within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain, you know, from a climate standpoint and many other areas >>as well. David, I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from. It's coming from your region, not so much the us US. We've got some great innovations. But look at Blockchain. Us is like, don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States. A little dangerous to, But that's where innovation is coming from, and this is really the key that we're focused on. I want to get your thoughts on. How do you see it going? Next level? The next level. Next. Gen Business model. What's your What's your vision? >>So I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like it with the introduction. Introduction of artificial intelligence, Robotics capability five g of course, you know, on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona a few weeks time. And if you talked about with the iPhone, the smartphone, of course, when four g was introduced, no one knew what the use case where that would be. It was the smartphone, which wasn't around at that time. So with five G and the capability there, that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and capability and what we can bring to market >>the way we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important. Some of the things you were talking about before. It's interesting what you're saying. John and Wendy, the GDP are set this standard and and you're seeing in the US they're stovepipes for that standard California is gonna do want every state is gonna have a difference, and that's going to slow things down. It's going to slow down progress. Do you see sort of an extension of GDP, our like framework of being adopted across the region, potentially accelerating some of these sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward? >>I think I think that will because I think there'll be more and more if you look at this is terminology of data. Is the new oil What do you do with data? How do you actually get value from that data? Make intelligent business decisions around that? So, yeah, that's critical. But yet if you look for all of ours, we are extremely passionate about where's our data used again? Back to trust and privacy. You need compliance, you need regulation. And I think this is just the beginning off how we will see that >>evolving. You know, when you get your thoughts. David, I've been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage. Long live storage. But data needs to be stored somewhere. Networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away. In fact, there's more pressure now to get the smartphone. That was 13 years ago, before that. Mobility, data and Video. Now super important driver. That's putting more pressure on you guys. And so hey, we did well, networking. So it's kind of like Moore's Law. More networking, more networking. So video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video. >>But if you look out the Internet of the future, you know what? So if you look for all of us now, we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access of. That's an Internet of the future. The next phase. We want even more so they'll be more more requirement for speed availability, that reliability of service, the way by which we engage in we communicate. There's some fundamentals there, so continuing to grow, which is which is so, so exciting force. >>So you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of C level executives. I got to believe security is up. There is a topic one other. What's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers? >>So I think there's a There's a huge excitement around the opportunity, realizing the value of the of the opportunity on. You know, if you look at top of mind conversations around security around, making sure that you can make taint, maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the customer go elsewhere, How do you do that? How do you enrich at all times and also looking at market? Jason sees, you know, as you go in a new tour at senior levels, within, within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in. They're a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve. And actually, one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate us on? When is it too fast? And one is one of my too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for a company. >>So you feel like sentiment. There's still strong, even though we're 10 years into this, this bull market you get Brexit, China tensions with US US elections. But but generally you see sentiment still pretty strong demand. >>So I would say that the the the excitement around technology, the opportunity that is there around technology in its broader sense is greater than ever before. And I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume and see value from us. But it's a fantastic times, >>gets economic indicators way. So >>I know you >>have to be careful, >>but really, the real I think I'm trying to get to is is the mindset of the CEO. The corner office right now is it is that we're gonna we're gonna grow short term by cutting or do we going to be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity? And it's probably both. You see a lot of automation in cars >>both, and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations, it's it's the three things helped me to make money, how to save money, keep me out of trouble. So those are the pivots they all operate with on, you know, depending on where an organization is in its journey, whether they're start up there in the middle, the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in a well, there's all different variables, you know? So it's it's it's mixed. >>Wendy, thanks so much to spend the time to come on. The Cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching. If you haven't seen the keynote opening section, that's good. Second, the business model. I think it's really right on. I think that's gonna be a conversation will continue. So thanks for sharing that before we look. Before we leave, I want to just ask a question around, What? What's going on for you here in Barcelona? As the show winds down, you had all your activities. Take us in the day in the life of what you do. Customer meetings. What were some of those conversations? Take us inside inside. What? What goes on for you here? >>I tell you, it's been an amazing It's been amazing few days, So it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes We just talked about conversations with partners. There's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with on also spending time with the teams as well. The definite zone, you know, is amazing. We have this afternoon the closing session where we got a fantastic, um, external guests who's coming in is going to be really exciting as well. And then, of course, the party tonight and will be announcing the next location, which I'm not going to reveal now. Later on today, >>we kind of figured it out because that's our job is to break news, but we're not gonna break it for you to have that. Hey, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate. When any market in Europe, Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got her hand on the pulse and the future is the business model. That's what's going on. Fundamentally radical change across the board in all areas. This is the Cube, bringing you all the action here in Barcelona. Thanks for watching. >>Yeah, yeah,

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage, it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live 2020. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman and two great guests here in the DevNet studio where the theCUBE is sitting all week long, been packed with action, Mandy Whaley, Senior Director Developer Experience, Cisco DevNet and Par Merat, Senior Director welcome back to this CUBE. Good to see you guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Glad to be here. >> So, we have had a lot of history with you guys from day one. >> Mandy: Yes. >> Watching DevNet from an idea of "Hey, we should do developer thing." And you also have DevNet Create which is a separate, more developer focused. DevNet and Cisco's developer environment. We've been there from the beginning, what a progression! Congratulations on the success. >> Thank you. Thank you so much, it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here, you know, learning in the workshops, and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco Live, and At DevNet Create, which you mentioned, which is coming up in March. So its right on the corner. >> DevNet Zone which we're in has been really robust, it's been the talk of the show every year, and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed, because people are learning developers, new developers as well as Cisco engineers who are certified, are coming getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments require new skills. It's a technology shift. >> Yeah, exactly and what we have in the DevNet Zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shifts. So, we have demos around IoT and security, and showing how, you know, to prevent threats from attacking the industrial routers and things like that. We have coding workshops from beginning, intro to Python, intro to Gets, all the way up through advanced, like, Kubernetes topics and things like that. So, people can really dive in with what they're looking for. And this year, we are really excited because we have the new DevNet certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February. So, a lot of people are here saying, "I am ready to skill up for those exams, "I am starting to dive into these topics." >> Well, Susie Wee was on, she's the chief of DevNet, among other things, and she said, there's going to be a DevNet 500. The first 500 certifications of DevNet are going to be, kind of, like, the hall of fame or, you know, inaugural or founder certifications. So, can you explain what does it mean? It's not a DevNet certification badge. It's a series of different, can go deeper than that? >> Yeah, just like we have our, you know, existing Network Certifications which are so respected and loved around the world, people get CCIE tattoos and things. Just like there is an associate and professional and expert level on the networking track, there's now a DevNet Associate, a DevNet Professional and coming soon DevNet Expert. And then there's also Specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation, IoT web access. So, it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software. So they're about 80% software skills, 20% knowledge of networking, and then how you really connect up and down the stack. >> So these are new certifications, they're not replacing anything else >> No, no, no they're all the same stuff? >> They are new, they are part of the same program, they have the same rigor, the same kind of test. They actually have ways to interweave with the existing networking certifications, because we want people to do both skill path, right, to build this new IT team of the future. And so, it's a completely new set of exams. The exams are going to be available to take February 24th, and you can start signing up now. So, with the DevNet 500, you know, that's going to be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get DevNet certifications. It'll be life-time achievement, they'll always be in a DevNet 500, right? And I've had people coming up and telling me, you know "I'm signed up for the first day, "I'm taking my exams on the first day, "I'm trying to get into that." >> Stu and I always want to be on the list, so I think we might be on the 500 study up there (laughs). >> Of course, yeah, And what's really great is with the certifications, we've heard from people in the Zone that, they have been coming and taking classes and learning the skills, but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work, you know, to have that sort of progression. And so with the certifications they will really will have that. And it's also really important for our partners and Par Merat is doing lot of work with certifications and partners. >> Yeah, Par, definitely, I would love to hear a little bit, we've interviewed on theCUBE over the years some of the DevNet partners from a technology standpoint, of course the channel ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business. Give us the update as to, you know, DevNet partnering as well as, what will these certifications mean to about the technology and go-to-market partners? >> Yeah, the wonderful thing about this is, it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software, and making sure that we are providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together. And what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of programmability. And this new DevNet specialization, which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner, allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint, from a recognition standpoint, that as a practice they have these skills. And look, at the end of the day, it's all about delivering what our customers need. And our customers are asking us for significant help in automation, digital transformation, they're trying to drive new business outcomes. And this will provide that recognition on who to partner with in the market. >> Yeah, this is so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the the partner ecosystem build data center practices. Went from the silos and now embracing, you've got the hardware the software, we're talking multicloud. It's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with with where they are going. >> It really is. And another benefit that we are finding in talking to our partners is where packaging this up and rolling it out, is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint, from a practice stand point and from a competitive differentiation standpoint. But it will also help them attract talent. I mean, it's no secret, there is a talent shortage right now. If you talk to any CEO that's top of mind, and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people. Smart people like working on smart things, right? And so this has really been a big traction point for them as well. >> It's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles. So some of the ways that you can combine the new DevNet certifications with the network engineering certifications. We've looked at it and said, you know, there's a role of network automation developer. That's a new role. Everyone we ask in one of our sessions, "Who needs that person on their team?" So many customers, partners raise their hands saying, "We want the Network Automation Developers on our team." And you can combine your CCNP Enterprise with a DevNet certification and build up the skills to be that Network Automation Developers >> Certainly it's been great buzz. I've got to get your guys' thoughts because certainly it's great for careers and you guys are betting on the people, and the people are betting on Cisco. This is what's going on, it's a maturity of DevNet, almost. It's like a pinch-me moment for you guys, but you continue to grow. I've got to ask you, what are some of the cool things that you're showing here? As you mature, you still have the start here session, which is intro to Python and other things, pretty elementary, and then there's more advanced things. What are some of the new things that's going on that you could share? >> So some of the new things we've got going on, one of my favorites is the IoT and security demonstration. There's an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things, and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot arm. And then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access, you know, something that that robot was using, that's getting in the way of it working? So you could detect threats and move forward on that. We also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing, to how you would deploy automation, to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi-domain automation. So really helping engineers, like, look at that whole progression, that's been really popular. >> Par, talk about the specialization, which ones are more, I'd say popular or entry level, which ones are people coming into getting certified first, network engineering, automation first? Or what's the-- >> Yeah, so the program's going to to roll out with three different levels. One is a specialized level, the second is an advanced level, and then we'll look to that third level. Again, they're anchored in the individual certs. And so as we look for that entry level, it's really all about automation, right? I mean, some things you take for granted, but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale, and have repeatable, scalable benefits from that. The second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience, compliance experiences, and then that next level, again, will anchor towards the expert level that's coming out. But one thing I want to point out is, in addition to just having the certified people on staff, they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it. So it's not just enough to say, "I passed an exam." As we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge, they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really, there's a lot behind it. >> So that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if we pass (laughs). >> Well, you might be able to be in the 500 list, but I don't know that theCUBE would end up being specialized. >> It's good banner advertising. No, seriously all fun, it's all fun. Cisco Live in Europe. Is there a difference between European and U.S.? Are you seeing any differences in geographic talent? >> You know what, the first couple of years that we did it, I think there was a bigger difference. It felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the U.S., slightly different in Europe. Last year and this year I feel, like they have converged. It's the same focus on DevOps, automation, security is a huge focus in both places. And it also feels like the interest and level of the people attending has also converged. It's really similar. Congratulations, it's been fun to watch the rise and success of DevNet, continues to be strong, obviously in the hub here, and the DevNet zone behind us, packed sessions. >> Mandy: Yes, yes. >> What's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success, what's jumped out? >> Yeah, I think, you know, one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit. We were hoping it would happen, we just didn't realize it would happen this soon. We're attracting new companies, new partners, so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional VARs. This is also available for our non resellers and we are finding different companies accessing DevNet resources and learning these skills. So that's been a really great benefit of DevNet overall. >> Definitely, my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what they went back and did, and the change that they drove in their company. And I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement, take back some new ideas, really create change, and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them. Those are my favorite surprises. >> And I tell you, we've known for years how important the developer is, but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just, Oh, the developer has some tools that they'd liked in the corner. The developer connected to the business and driving things forward. >> Mandy: Exactly. So perfect timing, congratulations on the certification-- >> The other thing that's been great is that Cisco itself, we now have APIs across the whole portfolio and up and down the stack. So that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers. >> So Cisco is API first company? >> We are building APIs everywhere we can, and the community is taking them and finding creative things to build. >> Well, it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco, but also impact customers has been great to watch. Par many thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. >> theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco Live 2020 I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, Stu Miniman. Be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage here at Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona, Spain. I'm jumpers student of cube coverage. We've got a lot of stuff going on in Cisco Multi cloud and cloud technology. Quantification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now. Cloud is here here to stay. We got two great guests unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves. We got you. Gene Kim, global product marketing. Compute Storage at Cisco Global marketing manager and Rob Gori, senior director. Cloud Solution Marketing Guys come back. Thanks for coming back. Appreciate it. Great to see you Barcelona guys. So, Bobby, we've had multiple conversations and you see that from the sales force given kind of the the discussion in the motivation Cloud is big. It's here. It's here to stay. It's changing. Cisco AP I first week here in all the products, it's changing everything. What's the story now? What's going on? >>I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona is because this time it's all about the application of spirits. I mean, the last two years we've being announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space where I think about all the announcements with AWS is the Googles the azure, so the world. But this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributive world. There is an application explosion. Ultimately, we will help for the right operation stools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer. And that's incredibly important because at the end, what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer. Otherwise, ultimately nothing's gonna work. And, of course, you're gonna lose your brand and your customers. >>One of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry. Also, Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote. You had APP dynamics first, not networking. Normally it's like what's in the hood? Routers and the gear. No, it was about the applications. This is the story we're seeing. It's kind of a quiet unveiling. Its not get a launch, but it's evolving very quickly. Can you share what's going on behind this? All this? >>Absolutely. It's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago, in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement, if you want from the application experience side of the House, is because with Appdynamics, we already have very, very powerful application performance management, which it's evolving extremely rapidly. First of all, Appdynamics can correlate not just the application for four months to some technology, maybe eyes, but through actual business KP eyes. So app dynamics can give you, for instance, serial time visibility off, say, a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation. Now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level. And that's the Appdynamics experience. Journey maps. What are those? It's actually the ability off, focusing not so much on front ends and back ends and the business performances, but really focusing on what the user is seen in front of his or her screen. And so what really matters is capturing the journey that given user of your application is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver or you have, like, a sudden drop off somewhere. And you know why this is important because in the end we've been talking about is the problem of the application, performance issues or performance. It could be a badly designed page. How do you know? And so this is a very precious information they were giving to application developers know, just through the idea. Ops, guys, that is incredibly gracious. >>Okay, you want to get this in. So you just brought up that journey. So that's part of the news. Just break down real quick. One minute what the news is. >>Yeah, so we have three components. The 1st 1 as you as you correctly pointed out, is really the introduction of the application. The journey maps, right. The experience journey maps. That's very, very important. The second he's way are actually integrating Appdynamics with the inter site. Actually, inter site the optimization manager, the workload optimization, workload, optimizer. And so because there is exchange of data between the two now, you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem. We have a worker problem for structure problem, which is after me, where you really need to do as quickly as you can. And thirdly, way have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform, which is hyper converge flagship platform for Cisco with a fully containerized version, the tax free if you want as well, that is a great platform for containerized applications. >>So you do and what I've been talking to customers last few years. When they go through their transformational journey, there's the modernization they need to do. The pattern I've seen most successful is first, modernize the platform often HD I is, you know, an option for that. It really simplifies the environment, reduces the silos on, has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is. And then, if I've got a good platform, then I can modernize the applications on top of it. But often those two have been a little bit disconnected. It feels like the announcements now that they are coming together. What are you seeing? What're you hearing? How your solutions at solving this issue >>exactly. I mean, as we've been talking to our customers, a lot of them are going through a different application. Modernizations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them. And to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs. And so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talk to us about. A lot of it has to be ableto it's got to be very simple, very turnkey, fully integrated, ready to turn on the other. One is something that's very agile, right? Very Dev Ops friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on prim. So as you mentioned, High Flex Application Platform takes our hyper converge system and build on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability. And it provides a full stack, fully supported element platform for our customers, and one of the best great aspects of it is it's all managed from inter site, from the physical infrastructure to the hyper converge layer to all the way to the container management. So it's very exciting to have that full stack management and inter site as well. >>It's great to see you, John and I have been following this kubernetes wave since the early early days. Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Googles of the world because, you know, a few years ago you talk to customers and they're like, Oh, well, I'm just going to build my own community. Nobody ever said that is easy now. Just delivering as a service seems to be the way most people want it. So if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google, they've got their manage service that I could do that or that there partners we're working with. So explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment. Because on Prem absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation that customers need. >>Yes, so, essentially from the customer experience perspective, as I mentioned, very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flex application platform we're taking are happening for software were integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it analytics k VM based. And then on top of that, we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top of as well. And so, in essence, right? It's a fully curated kubernetes stack that has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and provide that in a very turnkey way. And as I mentioned, the inter site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management. >>Fabio This is the previous announcements you've made with the public clouds. This just ties into those hybrid environments. That's exactly a few years ago. People like, Oh, is there going to be a distribution that wins in kubernetes? We don't think that's the answer, but still, I can't just move between kubernetes. You know seamlessly yet. But this is moving toward that >>direct. Absolutely. A lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation. At the same time, they weren't off course a multi cloud approach and I really care about marking the difference between multi cloud hybrid Cloud has been a lot of confusion. But if you think about a multi cloud is re routed into the business need or harnessing innovation from wherever it comes from, you know the different clouds capability from things, and you know what they do today. Tomorrow it could even change, so people want optionality, so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking, security and application of workload management. And we've been executing towards that goal so fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid apartments. >>And once you nail that operations on hybrid, that's where multi cloud comes in. That's really just a connection point. >>Absolutely, you know, you might know is an issue. So in order to fulfill your business, your line of business needs you. Then you have a hybrid problem, and you want to really kind of have a consistent production grade environment between things on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better. Now, of course, they're different school thoughts. But most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud, as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every time. >>I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is, because a lot of times it's a point, the finger at the other first, it's the application promising the problem, so I want to get into that. But first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform. Eugene, if you could just share the main problem that you guys solve, what are some of the pain points that customers had? What problem does the AP solved? >>Yeah, as I mentioned, it's really the platform for our customers to modernize the applications on right, and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right, really? The ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to, you know, but bringing any third party hyper visor licenses as well support costs that's well integrated. There you have your integrated, hyper converged storage capability. You have the cloud based management, and that's really developing. You provide that developer dev ops simplicity from that agility that they're looking for internally as well as for their production environments. And then the other aspect is the simplicity to manage all this right and the entire life cycle management >>as well. So it's the operational side of the hole in under the covers hobby on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a bit skeptical, Normal rightfully so. But I can see a problem where it's like Whose fault is it? Applications, problem or the network? I mean, it runs on where? Sears Workloads, Banking app. It's having trouble. How do you know where the problem is? And how do you solve that problem with what's going on for that specific issue? >>Absolutely. And you know, the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side, right? And I love what are appdynamics VP? GM Any? Whitaker said. You know, he has this terminology. Beast develops, which it may sound like an interesting acrobatics, but it's absolutely too. The business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because, as you said, you know, developer just drops their containers and their code to the I T. Ops team, but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is going to be in the code or in the application is actually deployed. Or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU. So in the end, it boils down to one very important thing. You have to have visibility, insights and take action at every layer of the stack. Instrumentation. Absolutely. There are players that only do it in their software overlay domain. The problem is, very often these kind of players assume they're underneath. Things are fine, and very often they're not. So in the end, this visibility inside in action is the loop that everybody's going after these days, too, Really get to the next. If you want a generational operation, where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace, right? So your I T ops, if you're faster than your competitors, >>will still still questioning the GM of APP Dynamics. Run, observe, ability. And he's like, No, it's not a feature, it's everywhere. So he's comment was observe. Abilities don't really talk about it because it's a big in. You agree with that? >>Absolutely. It has to be at every layer of the stack, and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stock, from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problems. Otherwise, the finger pointing quote unquote will continue, and you will not be able to gain the speed you need. >>Okay, so The question on my mind I want to get both of you guys could weigh in on this is that if you look at Cisco as a company, you got a lot going on. You guys huge customer base core routers to know applications. There's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity. You got I o. T. Security members talking about that. You got the WebEx rooms totally popular. It's got a lot of glam, too, and having the WebEx kind of, I guess, what virtual presence was telepresence kind of model. And then you get cloud. Is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything? Because you can't do I ot edge without having some sort of cloud operational things. Stuff we're talking about is not just a division. It's kind of it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco. What's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around cloud ification? >>Well, I would say it's it's a couple of dimensions. The 1st 1 is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture. That, of course, is the cornerstone of Cisco's. The knowledge is strategy, right? If you think about it, it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the users to the applications themselves. Like if you look at the latest US from I. D. C. 58% of workloads is heading to a public cloud, and the edge is like the data center is exploding many different directions. So you have this highly distributed kind of fabric. Guess what sits in between. All these applications and micro services is a secure network, and that's exactly what we're executing upon. Now that's the first kind of consideration. The second is if you look at the other civil line. Most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure. You look at the hyper flex. AP is actually managed by Inter site, which is a SAS kind of component. This journey started long time ago with Cisco Iraqi on then, of course, we have sass properties like WebEx. Everything else absolutely migrate borders. >>We've been reporting Eugene that five years ago we saw the movement where AP, eyes were starting to come in when you go back five years ago. Not a lot of the gear and stuff that Cisco had AP eyes. Now you got AP eyes building in all the new products that you see the software shift with you intent based networking to APP dynamics. It's interesting. It's you're seeing kind of the agile mindset. This is something you and I talk all the time. But agile now is the new model. Is it ready for customers? I mean, the normal enterprises still have the infrastructure and separated, and they're like, Okay, how do I bring it together? What do you guys see in the customer base? What's going on with that early adopters, Heavy duty hardcore pioneers out there. But you know, the general mainstream enterprise. Are they there yet? Have they had that moment of awakening? >>Yeah, I mean, I think they they are there because fundamentally, it's all about ensuring that application experience. And you could only ensure the application experience right by having your application teams and infrastructure teams work together. And that's what's exciting. You mentioned Ap eyes and what we've done. They were with APP dynamics, integrating with inner sight workload. Optimizer as you mentioned all the visibility inside in action and what APP Dynamics has provides. Provide that business and end user application performance experience. Visibility Inter site. It's giving you visibility on the underlining workload, and the resource is whether it's on prim in your private data center environment or in a different type of cloud providers. So you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inter site local optimizer is then also optimizing the resource is to proactively ensure that application experience. So before you know, if we talk about someone at a check out and they're about there's of abandonment because the function is not working, we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that. So, you know, in the end, I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with APP Dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application performing and at the same time, if there's an issue, the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology, where the issue is and entertain safely, whether it be manual intervention or even automatically our ops capability. Go ahead and provide that action so the action could be, you know, scaling out the VM that's on Prem or looking at new, different type of easy to template in the cloud. That's a very exciting about this. It's really the application experience is now driving and optimize the infrastructure in real >>time. And let me flip your question like, Do you even have a choice, John, when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications? If you're a large enterprise here, 5 to 7000 apps you have another 2 3000 applications just coming into into the and then 50% of the existing ones that are going to be re factor lifted and shifted the replace or retired by SAS application. It's just like a tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh, by the way, because again the micro services kind of effect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly, Like last year, we were eight average interdependencies for applications. Now we have 20 so in Beijing imaginable happens as you are literally flooded with this can really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can >>see. You and I have been talking for at least five years now, if not longer. Networking has been the key kind of last change over clarification. I would agree with you guys. I think last question because I wanted to get your perspective. But think about it. It's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that mobile app can change business. But now you get the pressure of the networks. Bringing that pressure on the network or the pressure of the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data. I mean, you got mobile check now you got it. Video. I mean more people doing video now than ever before. Videos of consumer. Well, it's streaming. You got data? These two things absolutely forced customers to deal with it. >>But what really tipped the balance? John is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because, as you know, it's an I t. So the inflection points. Nothing gets a linear right. So once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps, and we're absolutely they're already all of a sudden your traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically. So why in the world are you continuing? Kind of, you know, concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the Internet. You have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level and as close to the users this possible, and that it implies a radical change of the >>way I would even add to that. And I think you guys are right on where you guys are going. It may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco, but in the keynote, the business model shifts come from SAS. So you got all this technical stuff going on. You have the sass ification, or cloud changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players get better. So I think that whole business model conversation never was discussed at Cisco Live before in depth. Okay, run your business, connect your hubs campus move packets around Dallas applications in business model, >>but also the fact that there is increasing number off software capabilities and so fundamental. You want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer buying a using what they really need the right at any given point in time, all the way to having enterprise agreements. >>I also think that's about delivering these application experiences free for small, different experience. That's really what's differentiating you from your competitors, right? And so that's a different type of >>shift as well. Well, you guys have got a good That's a good angle on this cloud. I love it. I got to ask the question. What can we expect next from Cisco? More progression along cloud ification? What's next? >>Well, I would say we've been incredibly consistent, I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy, which again is sent around helping customers really gluing this mix, set off data centers and clouds to make it work as one right as much as possible. And so what we really deliver is networking security and application performance management, and we're integrating this more and more on the two sides of the equation, right? The data center side and the public cloud side and more more integrated in between all of these layers again, to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster. We'll continue doing so and >>we'll get you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to sales teams. What are they? What's the vibe with sales team? They get excited by this. What's the >>oh yeah, feedback. And absolutely, from the inter site work optimizer and the app Dynamics side. It's very exciting for them. Switch the conversation they're having with their customers, really from that application experience and proactively ensuring it. And on the hyper flex application platform side, this is extreme exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers. And you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize the applications on hyper >>flex. You guys are riding a pretty big waves here at Cisco in a cloud way to get the i o t. Security wave. Great stuff. Thanks for coming in. Thanks for sharing the insights. Appreciate it. >>Thank you for having >>coverage here in Barcelona. I'm John. First, Minutemen back with more coverage. Fourth day of four days of cube coverage. Be right back after this short break. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops 2 min and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig in to of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK kia nini TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been ok you know compromise before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard Enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors gone from hacktivists to criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile looked like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same you know bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talked to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were apart sort of administrator in your part detective most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what production should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window yeah using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over unsecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think is a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in okay what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yeah automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threat modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people and you know versus allowing them to you know do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it I've tried to understand I know that's a high level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field say the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna reimage this machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what it's called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black box is is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wonder you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the stealthWatch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids um they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at definitely definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but start-stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives off the land so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came of the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially assured securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me since there's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and that's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness well you know 20 years ago they then write me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these company us the bank I mean that's guys a dinner table company every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just I you know a tort or a jipner's you've been in this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you're a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really Thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more what you're working on what's some of the best resources I have to go to do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we publish all our our lars security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch it all right yeah I think they've traveled thank you so much for de Villante um Stu Mittleman John Fourier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys

>>live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners >>back. This is the Cube's coverage >>of Cisco Live 2020 here in Barcelona, doing about three and 1/2 days of wall to wall coverage here. Stew Minimum. My co host for this segment is Dave Volante. John Furrier is also here, scaring the floor and really happy to welcome to the program. Two first time guests. I believe so. Uh, Derek is the product manager of product marketing for Cloud Computing with Cisco, and sitting to his left is Matt Ferguson, who's director of product development, also with the Cisco Cloud Group. David here from Boston. Matt is also from the Boston area, and customers is coming over from London. So thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. All right, so obviously, cloud computing something we've been talking about many years. We've really found fascinating relationship. Cisco's had, with its customers a zealous through the partner ecosystem, had many good discussions about some of the announcements this week. Maybe start a little bit, you know, Cisco's software journey and positioning in the cloud space right now. >>So it's a really interesting dynamic when we started transitioning to multi cloud and we actually deal with Cloud and Compute coming together and we've had whether you're looking at three infrastructure ops organization or whether you're looking at the APS up operations or whether you're looking at, you know, your DEV environment, your security operations. Each organization has to deal with their angle, which they view, you know, multi cloud. Or they view how they actually operate within those the cloud computing context. And so whether you're on the infrastructure side, you're looking at compute. You're looking at storage. You're looking at resources. If you're on an app operator, you're looking at performance. You're looking at visibility assurance. If you are in the security operations you're looking at, maybe governance. You're looking at policy, and then when you're a developer, you really sort of thinking about see I CD. You're talking about agility, and there's very few organizations like Cisco that actually is looking at from a product perspective. All those various angles >>of multi cloud >> is definitely a lot of pieces. Maybe up level it for us a little bit. There's so many pieces way talk for so long. You know you don't talk to any company that doesn't have a cloud. Strategy doesn't mean that it's not going to change over time. And it means every company's got a known positioning. But talk about the relationship Cisco has with its customers and really the advisory condition that you want to have with >>its actually a very relevant question. To what? To what Matt is talking about, because Wei talked a lot about multi cloud as a trend and hybrid clouds and this kind of relationship between the traditional view of looking at computing data centers and then expanding to different clouds. You know, public cloud providers have now amazing platform capabilities. And if you think about it, the it goes back to what Matt said about I t ops and development kind of efforts. Why is this happening? Really, there's There's the study that we did with with an analyst, and there was an amazing a shocking stats around how within the next three years, organizations will have to support 50% more applications than they do now. And we have been trying to test this, that our events that made customer meetings etcetera, that is a lot of a lot of change for organizations. So if you think about why are they use, why do they need to basically let go and expand to those clouds? Is because they want to service. I T ops teams want to servers with capabilities, their developers faster, right? And this is where you have within the I T ops kind of theme organization. You have the security kind of frame through the compute frame, the networking where, you know Cisco has a traditional footprint. How do you blend all this? How do you bring all this together in a linear way to support individual unique application modernization efforts? I think that's what we're hearing from customers in terms of the feedback. And this is what influences our >>strategy to converts the different business units. And it's an area engineering effort, right? >>I want to poke at that a little bit. I mean, a couple years ago, I have to admit I was kind of a multi cloud skeptic. I always said that I thought it was more of a symptom that actually strategy a symptom of shadow I t and different workloads and so forth, but now kind of buying in because I think I t in particular has been brought in to clean up the crime scene. I often say so I think it is becoming a strategy. So if you could help us understand what you're hearing from customers in terms of their strategy towards multi cloud and how Cisco it was mapping into that, >>yeah, so So when we talk to customers, it comes back to the angle at which they're approaching the problem. And, like you said, that shadow I t. Has been probably around for longer than anybody want, cares to admit, because people want to move faster. Organizations want to get their product out to market sooner. And so what? What really is we're having conversations now about, you know, how do I get the visibility? How do I get you know, the policies in the governance so that I can actually understand either how much I'm spending in the cloud or whether I'm getting the actual performance that I'm looking for, that I need that connectivity. So I get the bandwidth, and so these are the kinds of conversations that we have with customers is going. I realized that this is going on now I actually have to Now put some governance and controls around. That is their products is their solutions, is there? You know, they're looking to Cisco to help them through this journey because it is a journey. Because as much as we talk about cloud and you know, companies that were born in the cloud cloud native there is a tremendous number of I see organizations that are just starting that journey that are just entering into this phase where they have to solve these problems. >>Yeah, I agree. And they're starting the journey with a deliberate strategy as opposed to Okay, we got this thing. But if you think about the competitive landscape, it's kind of interesting. And I want to try to understand where Cisco fits because again, you initially had companies that didn't know in a public cloud sort of pushing multi cloud. You say? Well, I guess they have to do that. But now you see, and those come out with Google, you see Microsoft leaning in way. Think eventually aws is gonna lead in. And then you say I'm kind of interested in working with some of these cloud agnostic not trying to force Now, now Cisco. A few years ago, you didn't really think about Cisco as a player. Now this goes right in the middle. I have said often that Cisco's in a great position John Furrier as well to connect businesses and from a source of networking strength, making a strong argument that we have the most cost effective, most secure, highest performance networks to connect clouds. That seems to be a pretty fundamental strength of yours. And does that essentially summarize your strategy? And And how does that map into the actions that you're taking in terms of products and services that you're bringing to market? >>I would say that I can I can I can take that. Yeah, for sure. It's chewy question for hours. So I was thinking about satellite you mentioned before. Like Okay, that's, you know, the world has turned around completely way seem to talk about Target satellite Is something bad happening? And now, suddenly we completely forgot about it, like let let free, free up the developers and let them do whatever they want. And basically that is what I think is happening out there in the market. So all of the solutions you mentioned in the go to market approaches and the architectures that the public cloud providers at least our offering out there. Certainly the Big Three have differences have their strengths on. And I think those things are closer to the developer environment. Basically, you know, if you're looking into something like AI ml, there's one provider that you go with. If you're looking for a mobile development framework, you're gonna go somewhere else. If you're looking for a D, are you gonna go somewhere else? Maybe not a big cloud, but your service provider. But you've been dealing with all this all this time, so you know that they have their accreditation that you're looking for. So where does Cisco come in? You know, we're not a public cloud provider way offer products as a service from our data centers and our partners data centers. But at the the way that the industry sees a cloud provider a public cloud like AWS Azure, Google, Oracle, IBM, etcetera, we're not that we don't do that. Our mission is to enable organizations with software hardware products SAS products to be able to facilitate their connectivity, security, visibility, observe ability, and in doing business and in leveraging the best benefits from those clubs. So way kind of way kind of moved to a point where we flip around the question, and the first question is, Who is your club provider? What? How many? Tell us the clouds you work with, and we can give you the modular pieces you can put we can put together for you. So these, so that you can make the best out of >>your club. Being able to do that across clouds in an environment that is consistent with policies that are consistent, that represent the edicts of your organization, no matter where your data lives, that's sort of the vision and the way >>this is translated into products into Cisco's products. You naturally think about Cisco as the connectivity provider networking. That's that's really sort of our, you know, go to in what we're also when we have a significant computing portfolio as well. So connectivity is not only the connectivity of the actual wire between geography is point A to point B. In the natural routing and switching world, there's connectivity between applications between compute and so this week. You know, the announcements were significant in that space when you talk about the compute and the cloud coming together on a single platform, that gives you not only the ability to look at your applications from an experience journey map so you can actually know where problems might occur in the application domain. You can actually, then go that next level down into the infrastructure level and you can say, Okay, maybe I'm running out of some sort of resource, whether it's compute resource, whether it's memory, whether it's on your private cloud that you have enabled on Prem, or whether it's in the public cloud, that you have that application residing and then, quite candidly, you have the actual hardware itself. So inter site. It has an ability to control that entire stack so you can have that visibility all the way down to the hardware layer. >>I'm glad you brought up some of the applications. I wonder if we could stay there for a moment. Talk about some of the changing patterns for customers. A lot of talk in the industry about cloud native often gets conflated with micro services, container ization and lots of the individual pieces there. But when one of Our favorite things have been talking about this week is software that really sits at the application layer and how that connects down through some of the infrastructure pieces. So help us understand what you're hearing from customers and how you're helping them through this transition to cost. You're saying, Absolutely, there's going to be lots of new applications, more applications and they still have the old stuff that they need to continue to manage because we know in I t nothing ever goes away. Yeah, >>that's that's definitely I was I was thinking, you know, there's there's a vacuum at the moment on and there's things that Cisco is doing from from a technology perspective to fill that gap between application. What you see when it comes to monitoring, making sure your services are observable. And how does that fit within the infrastructure stack, You know, everything upwards of the network layer. Basically, that is changing dramatically. Some of the things that matter touched upon with regards to, you know, being able to connect the networking, the security and the infrastructure of the compute infrastructure that the developers basically are deploying on top. So there's a lot of the desert out of things on continue ization. There's a lot of, in fact, it's one part of the off the shelf inter site of the stack that you mentioned and one of the big announcements. Uh huh. You know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry around. Okay, how does that abstract further the conversation on networking, for example? Because that now what we're seeing is that you have a huge monoliths enterprise applications that are being carved down into micro services. Okay, they know there's a big misunderstanding around what is cloud native? Is it related to containers? Different kind of things, right? But containers are naturally the infrastructure defacto currency for developers to deploy because of many, many benefits. But then what happens between the kubernetes layer, which seems to be the standard and the application? Who's going to be managing services talking to each other that are multiplying? You know, things like service mesh, network service mess? How is the never evolving to be able to create this immutable infrastructure for developers to deploy applications? So there's so many things happening at the same time where Cisco has actually a lot of taking a lot of the front seat. Leading that conversation >>is where it gets really interesting. Sort of hard to squint through because you mentioned kubernetes is the de facto standard, but it's a defacto standard that's open everybody's playing with. But historically, this industry has been defined by a leader comes out with a de facto standard kubernetes, not a company. It's an open standard, so but there's so many other components than containers. And so history would suggest that there's going to be another defacto standard or multiple standards that emerge. And your point earlier. You got to have the full stack. You can't just do networking. You can't just do certain if you so you guys are attacking that whole pie. So how do you think this thing will evolve? I mean, you guys obviously intend to put out a stat cast a wide net as possible, captured not only your existing install basement attract, attract others on you're going aggressively at it as a czar. Others How do you see it shaking out? You see you know, four or five pockets, you see one leader emerging. I mean, customers would love all you guys to get together and come up with standards. That's not going to happen. So where it's jump ball right now? >>Well, yeah. You think about, you know, to your point regarding kubernetes is not a company, right? It is. It is a community driven. I mean, it was open source by a large company, but it's community driven now, and that's the pace at which open source is sort of evolving. There is so much coming at I t organizations from a new paradigm, a new software, something that's, you know, the new the shiny object that sort of everybody sort of has to jump onto and sort of say, that is the way we're gonna function. So I t organizations have to struggle with this influx of just every coming at them and every angle. And I think what starting toe happen is the management and the you know that Stack who controls that or who is helping i t organizations to manage it for them. So really, what we're trying to say is there's elements that have to put together that have to function, and kubernetes is just one example Docker, the operating system that associated with it that runs all that stuff then you have the application that goes right sides on top of it. So now what we have to have is things like what we just announced this week. Hx AP the application platform for a check so you have the Compute cluster, but then you have the stack on top of that that's managed by an organization that's looking at the security that's looking at the the actual making opinions about what should go in the stack and managing that for you. So you don't have to deal with that because you just focus on the application development. Yeah, >>I mean, Cisco's in a strong position to do. There's no question about it. To me, it comes down to execution. If you guys execute and deliver on the products and services that you say, you know, you announced, for instance, this weekend previously, and you continue on a road map, you're gonna get a fair share of this market place. I think there's no question >>so last topic before we let you go is love your viewpoint on customers. What's separating kind of leaders from you know, the followers in this space, you know, there's so much data out there. And I'm a big fan of the State of Dev Ops report Help separate, You know, some not be not. Here's the technology or the piece, but the organizational and, you know, dynamics that you should do. So it sounds like you like that report also, love. What do you hear from customers? How do you help guide them towards becoming leaders in the cloud space? >>Yeah, The State of Dev Ops report was fascinating. I mean, they've been doing that for a number of years now. Yeah, exactly. And really what? It's sort of highlighting is two main factors that I think that are in this revolution or the third paradigm shift. Our journey we're going through, there's the technology side for sure, and so that's getting more complex. You have micro services, you have application explosion. You have a lot of things that are occurring just in technology that you're trying to keep up. But then it's really about the human aspect of human elements, the people about it. And that's really I think, what separates you know, the elites that are really sort of, you know, just charging forward and ahead because they've been able to sort of break down the silos because really, what you're talking about in cloud Native Dev Ops is how you take the journey of the experience of the service from end end from the development all the way to production. And how do you actually sort of not have organizations that look at their domain their data, set their operations and then have to translate that or have to sort of you have another conversation with another organization that that doesn't look at that, That has no experience of that? So that is what we're talking about, that end and view. >>And in addition to all the things we've been talking about, I think security's a linchpin here. You guys are executing on security. You got a big portfolio and you've seen a lot of M and A and a lot of companies trying to get in, and it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out. But that's going to be a key because organizations are going to start there from a strategy standpoint, and they build out >>Yeah, absolutely. If you follow Dev ops methodologies, security gets baked in along the way so that you're not having to 100% gone after anything, just give you the final word. >>I was just a follow up with You. Got some other model was saying, There's so many, there's what's happening out there Is this democracy around? Standards with is driven by communities and way love that in fact, Cisco is involved in many open sores community projects. But you asked about customers and just right before you were asking about you know who is gonna be the winner. There's so many use cases. >>Uh huh. >>There's so much depth in Tim's off. You know what customers want to do with on top of kubernetes, you know, take Ai Ml, for example, something that we have way have some, some some offering services on there's cast. A mother wants to ai ml their their container stuck. Their infrastructure will be so much different to someone else, is doing something just hosting. And there's always going to be a SAS provider that is niche servicing some oil and gas company, you know, which means that the company of that industry will go and follow that instead of just going to a public cloud provider that is more agnostic. Does that make sense? Yeah. >>Yeah. There's relationships that exist that are just gonna get blown away. That add value today. And they're not going to just throw him out. Exactly. >>Well, thank you so much for helping us understand the updates where your customers are driving super exciting space. Look forward to keeping an eye on it. Thanks so much. Alright, there's still lots more coming here from Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona. People are standing watching all the developer events, lots going on the floor and we still have more. So thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah.

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners come back this is the cubes coverage of Cisco live 2020 here in Barcelona doing about three and a half days of wall-to-wall coverage here I'm Stu minim and my co-host for this segment is Dave Volante John furs also here scouring the floor and really happy to welcome to the program to first-time guests I believe so Ron Daris is the product manager of product marketing for cloud computing with Cisco and sitting to his left is Matt Ferguson who's director of product development also with the Cisco cloud group Dave and I are from Boston Matt is also from the Boston area yes and Costas is coming over from London so thanks so much for joining us thanks IBPS all right so obviously cloud computing something we've been talking about many years we've really found fascinating the relationship Cisco's had with its customers as well as through the partner ecosystem had many good discussions about some of the announcements this week maybe start a little bit you know Cisco's software journey and you know positioning in this cloud space right now yes oh so it's a it's a really interesting dynamic when we start transitioning to multi cloud and we actually deal with cloud and compute coming together and we've had whether you're looking at the infrastructure ops organization or whether you're looking at the apps operations or whether you're looking at you know your dev environment your security operations each organization has to deal with their angle at which they view you know multi cloud or they view how they actually operate within those the cloud computing context and so whether you're on the infrastructure side you're looking at compute you're looking at storage you're looking at resources if you're an app operator you're looking at performance you're looking at visibility assurance if you are in the security operations you're looking at maybe governance you're looking at policy and then when you're a developer you really sort of thinking about CI CD you're talking about agility and there's very few organizations like Cisco that actually is looking at from a product perspective all those various angles of multi-cloud yeah definitely a lot of piece of cost us maybe up level it for us a little bit there's there's so many pieces you know we talked for so long you know you don't talk to any company that doesn't have a cloud strategy doesn't mean that it's not going to change over time and it means every company's got at home positioning but talk about the relationship cisco has with its customer and really the advisory position that you want to have with them it's actually a very relevant question to what to what Matt is talking about because we talk a lot about multi cloud as a trend and hybrid clouds and this kind of relationship between the traditional view of looking at computing data centers and then expanding to different clouds you know public cloud providers have now amazing platform capabilities and if you think about it the the it goes back to what Matt said about IT ops and the development kind of efforts why is this happening really you know there's there's the study that we did with with an analyst and there was an amazing a shocking stat around how within the next three years organizations will have to support 50% more applications than they do now and we have been trying to test this stat our events that made customer meetings etc that is a lot of a lot of change for organizations so if you think about why are they use why do they need to basically what go and expand to those clouds is because they want to service IT Ops teams want ER servers with capabilities their developers faster right and this is where you have within the IT ops kind of theme organization you have the security kind of frame the compute frame the networking where you know Cisco has a traditional footprint how do you blend all this how do you bring all this together in a linear way to support individual unique application modernization efforts I think that's what are we hearing from customers in terms of the feedback and this is what influences our strategy to converts the different business units and engineering engineering efforts right couple years ago I have to admit I was kind of a multi cloud skeptic I always said I thought it was more of a symptom than actually a strategy a symptom of you know shadow IT and different workloads and so forth but now I'm kind of buying in because I think IT in particular has been brought in to clean up the crime scene I often say so I think it is becoming a strategy so if you could help us understand what you're hearing from customers in terms of their strategy toward the multi cloud and how Cisco that was mapping into that yeah so so when we talk to customers it comes back to the angle at which they're approaching the problem in like you said the shadow IT has been probably around for longer than anybody won't cares to admit because the people want to move faster organizations want to get their product out to market sooner and and so what what really is we're having conversations now about you know how do I get the visibility how do I get you know the policies and the governance so that I can actually understand either how much I'm spending in the cloud or whether I'm getting the actual performance that I'm looking for that I need the connectivity so I get the bandwidth and so these are the kinds of conversations that we have with customers is is is going I realize that this is going on now I actually have to now put some you know governance and controls around that is their products is their solutions is their you know they're looking to Cisco to help them through this journey because it is a journey because as much as we talk about cloud and you know companies that were born in the cloud cloud native there is a tremendous number of IT organizations that are just starting that journey that are just entering into this phase where they have to solve these problems yeah I agree and it's just starting the journey with a deliberate strategy as opposed to okay we got this this thing but if you think about the competitive landscape its kind of interesting and I want to try to understand where Cisco fits because again you you initially had companies that didn't know in a public cloud sort of pushing multi cloud and you'd say oh well okay so they have to do that but now you see anthos come out with Google you see Microsoft leaning in we think eventually AWS is going to lean in and then you say I'm kind of interested in working with someone whose cloud agnostic not trying to force now now Cisco a few years ago you didn't really think about Cisco as a player now so this goes right in the middle I have said often that Cisco's in a great position John Fourier as well to connect businesses and from a source of networking strength making a strong argument that we have the most cost-effective most secure highest performance network to connect clouds that seems to be a pretty fundamental strength of yours and does that essentially summarize your strategy and and how does that map into the actions that you're taking in terms of products and services that you're bringing to market I would say that I can I can I can take that ya know it's a chewy question for hours yeah so I I was thinking about a satellite in you mentioned this before and you're like okay that's you know the world is turning around completely because we we seem to talk about satellite e is something bad happening and now suddenly we completely forgot about it like let let free free up the developers gonna let them do whatever they want and basically that is what I think is happening out there in the market so all the solutions you mentioned in the go to market approaches and the architectures that the public cloud providers at least are offering out there certainly the big three have differences have their strengths and I think those strengths are closer to the developer environment basically you know if you're looking into something like a IML there's one provider that you go with if you're looking for a mobile development framework you're gonna go somewhere else if you're looking for a dr you're gonna go somewhere else maybe not a big cloud but your service provider that you've been dealing with all these all these times and you know that they have their accreditation that you're looking for so where does Cisco come in you know we're not a public cloud provider we offer products as a service from our data centers and our partners data centers but at the - at the way that the industry sees a cloud provider a public cloud like AWS a sure Google Oracle IBM etc we're not that we don't do that our mission is to enable organizations with software hardware products SAS products to be able to facilitate their connectivity security visibility observability and in doing business and in leveraging the best benefits from those clouds so we we kind of we kind of moved to a point where we flip around the question and the first question is who is your cloud provider what how many tell us the clouds you work with and we can give you the modular pieces you can put we can put together for you so there's so that you can make the best out of your plan it's been being able to do that across clouds we're in an environment that is consistent with policies that are consistent that represent the edicts of your organization no matter where your data lives that's sort of the the vision in the way this is translated into products into Cisco's product you naturally think about Cisco as the connectivity provider networking that's that's really sort of our you know go to in what we're also when we have a significant computing portfolio as well so connectivity is not only the connectivity of the actual wire between geographies point A to point B in the natural routing and switching world there's connectivity between applications between cute and so this week you know the announcements were significant in that space when you talk about the compute and the cloud coming together on a single platform that gives you not only the ability to look at your applications from a experience journey map so you can actually know where the problems might occur in the application domain you can actually then go that next level down into the infrastructure level and you can say okay maybe I'm running out of some sort of resource whether it's compute resource whether it's memory whether it's on your private cloud that you have enabled on Prem or whether it's in the public cloud that you have that application residing and then why candidly you have the actual hardware itself so inter-site it has an ability to control that entire stack so you can have that visibility all the way down to the hardware layer I'm glad you brought up some of the applications wonderful we can you know stay there for a moment and talk about some of the changing patterns for customers a lot of talk in the industry about cloud native often it gets conflated with you know microservices containerization and lots of the individual pieces there but you know one of our favorite things that been talked about this week is the software that really sits at the application layer and how that connects down through some of the infrastructure pieces so help us understand what you're hearing from customers and and where how you're helping them through this transition to constants as you were saying absolutely there's going to be lots of new applications more applications and they still have the the old stuff that they need to continue to manage because we know an IT nothing ever goes away that's that's definitely true I was I was thinking you know there's there's a vacuum at the moment and and there's things that Cisco is doing from from technology leadership perspective to fill that gap between the application what do you see when it comes to monitoring making sure your services are observable and how does that fit within the infrastructure stack you know everything upwards network the network layer base again that is changing dramatically some of the things that Matt touched upon with regards to you know being able to connect the the networking the security in the infrastructure the computer infrastructure that the developers basically are deploying on top so there's a lot of there's a lot of things on containerization there's a lot of in fact it's you know one part of the of the self-injure side of the stack that you mentioned and one of the big announcements you know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry around ok how does that abstract further the conversation on networking for example because that now what we're seeing is that you have huge monoliths enterprise applications that are being carved down into micro services ok they you know there's a big misunderstanding around what is cloud native is it related to containers different kind of things right but containers are naturally the infrastructure de facto currency for developers to deploy because of many many benefits but then what happens you know between the kubernetes layer which seems to be the standard and the application who's gonna be managing services talking to each other that are multiplying you know things like service mesh network service mess how is the network evolving to be able to create this immutable infrastructure for developers to deploy applications so there's so many things happening at the same time where cisco has actually a lot of taking a lot of the front seat this is where it gets really interesting you know it's sort of hard to squint through because you mentioned kubernetes is the de facto standard but it's a de-facto standard that's open everybody's playing with but historically this industry has been defined by you know a leader who comes out with a de facto standard kubernetes not a company right it's an open standard and so but there's so many other components than containers and so history would suggest that there's going to be another de facto standard or multiple standards that emerge and your point earlier is you you got to have the full stack you can't just do networking you can't just do certain few so you guys are attacking that whole pie so how do you think this thing will evolve I mean you guys are obviously intend to put out as Casta as wide a net as possible capture not only your existing install base but attractive attract others and you're going aggressively at it as are as are others how do you see it shaking out deep do you see you know four or five pockets do you see you know one leader emerging I mean customers would love all you guys to get together come up with standards that's not going to happen so we're it's jump ball right now well yeah and you think about you know to your point regarding kubernetes is not a company right it is it is a community driven I mean it was open source by a large company but it's but it's community driven now and that's the pace at which open source is sort of evolving there is so much coming at IT organizations from a new paradigm a new software something that's you know the new the shiny object that sort of everybody sort of has to jump on to and sort of say that is the way we're going to function so IT organizations have to struggle with this influx of just every coming at them and every angle and I think what's starting to happen is the management and the you know that stack who controls that or who is helping IT organizations to manage it for them so really what we're trying to say is there's elements that you have to put together that have to function and kubernetes is just one example docker the operating system that associated with it that runs all that stuff then you have the application that goes rides IDEs on top of it so now what we have to have is things like what we just announced this week HX ap the application platform for HX so you have the compute cluster but then you have the on top of that that's managed by an organization that's looking at the security that's looking at the the actual making opinions about what should go in the stock and managing that for you so you don't have to deal with that because you can just focus on the application development yeah I mean Cisco's in a strong position to do there's no question about it and to me it comes down to execution if you guys execute and deliver on the the products and services that you say you know your nouns for instance this week and previously and you continue on a roadmap you're gonna get a fair share of this marketplace I think there's no question so last topic before we let you go is love your viewpoint on customers what's separating kind of leaders from you know the followers in this space you know there's so much data out there you know I'm a big fan of the state of DevOps report yeah focus you know separate you know some but not the not here's the technology or the piece but the organizational and you know dynamics that you should do so it sounds like Matt you you like that that report also love them what are you hearing from customers how do you help guide them towards becoming leaders in the cloud space yeah the state of DevOps report was fascinating and I mean they've been doing that for what a number of years yeah exactly and really what it's sort of highlighting is two main factors that I think that are in this revolution or this this this paradigm shift or journey we're going through there's the technology side for sure and so that's getting more complex you have micro services you have application explosion you have a lot of things that are occurring just in technology that you're trying to keep up but then it's really about the human aspect that human elements the people about it and that's really I think what separates you know the the elites that are really sort of you know just charging forward in the head because they've been able to sort of break down the silos because really what you're talking about in cloud native DevOps is how you take the journey of that experience of the service from end to end from the development all the way to production and how do you actually sort of not have organizations that look at their domain their data set their operations and then have to translate that or have to sort of you know have another conversation with another organization that it doesn't look at that that has no experience of that so that is what we're talking about that end-to-end view is that in addition to all the things we've been talking about I think Security's a linchpin here now you guys are executing on security you got a big portfolio and you've seen a lot of M&A and a lot of companies now trying to get in and it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out but that's going to be a key because organizations are going to start there from a strategy standpoint and then build out yeah absolutely if you follow the DevOps methodology its security gets baked in along the way so that you're not having to sit on after do anything Custis give you the final word I was just as follow-up with regard what what Mark was saying there's so many there's what's happening out there is this just democracy around standards which is driven by communities and we will love that in fact cisco is involved in many open-source community projects but you asked about customers and and just right before you were asking about you know who's gonna be the winner there's so many use cases there's so much depth in terms of you know what customers want to do with on top of kubernetes you know take AI ml for example something that we have we have some some offering the services around there's the customer that wants to do AML there their containers that their infrastructure will be so much different to someone else's doing something just hosting yeah and there's always gonna be a SAS provider that is niche servicing some oil and gas company you know which means that the company of that industry will go and follow that instead of just going to a public law provider that is more organized if there's a does that make sense yeah yeah this there's relationships that exist the archer is gonna get blown away that add value today and they're not gonna just throw them out so exactly right well thank you so much for helping us understand the updates where your customers are driving super exciting space look forward to keeping an eye on it thank you thank you so much all right there's still lots more coming here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona people are standing watching all the developer events lots of going on the floor and we still have more so thank you for watching the cute [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops to Minh and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig into of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK Kia Nene TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been okay you know compromised before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's uh it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors going from hacktivists took criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile look like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talk to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were part sort of administrator in your part detective and most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what productions should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of great technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over insecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think it's a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in ok what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yes automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threaten modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and the storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people you know versus allowing them to do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that and you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it try to understand I know that's a high-level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field see the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna readjust machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what is called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and in a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black boxes is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wondered you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the self watch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at dev net right yeah yeah I mean definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but you know start/stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives down so bad so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah no I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came on the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially exerted securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me it's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and it's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his is his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah I'm and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness you know twenty years ago then right me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these coming off the bank I mean that's those guys a dinner table cover every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just you know a tort or a jipner's you've been to this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like it's always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you've a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more of what you're working on but what's some of the best resource I have to go do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we published all our our laurs security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch alright yeah and a travels thank you so much for de Villante I'm Stu Mittleman John furrier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John Faria my co-host to many men to great guests here in the dev net studio where the cube is sitting all week long been packed with action mindy Whaley senior director developer experiences but dev net and partner a senior director welcome back to this cube good to see you guys glad to be here so we've had a lot of history with you guys what from day one yes watching def net from an idea of hey we should develop earthing you also have definite create yes separate more developer focused definite is Cisco's developer environment we've been here from the beginning what a progression congratulations on the success thank you thank you so much it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here you know learning in the workshops and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco live and it definitely ate what you mentioned which is coming up in March so it's right around the corner def net zone which we're in it's been really robust spins it's been the top of the show every year and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed because people are learning developers new developers as well as Cisco engineers who were certified coming in getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments are new skills is a technology shift yeah exactly and what we have in the definite zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shift so we have demos around IOT and security and showing how you know to prevent threats from attacking the Industrial routers and things like that we have coding workshops from you know beginning intro to Python intro to get all the way up through advanced like kubernetes topics and things like that so people can really dive in with what they're looking for and this year we're really excited because we have the new definite certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February so a lot of people are here saying I'm ready to skill up for those exams I'm starting to dive into this topic well Susie we was on she's the chief of deaf net among other things and she said there's gonna be a definite 500 the first 500 certifications of deaf net are gonna be kind of like the Hall of Fame or you know the inaugural or founder certifications so can you explain what this it means it's not a definite certification badge it's a series of write different sir can you deeper in then yeah just like we have our you know existing network certifications which are so respected and loved around the world people get CCIE tattoos and things just like there's an associate and professional and expert level on the networking truck there's now a definite associate a definite professional and coming soon definite expert and then there's also specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation IOT WebEx so it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software so there are about 80 80 % software skills 20 percent knowledge of networking and then how you really connect up and down the stock so these are new certifications not replacing anything all the same stuff they're new they're part of the same program they have the same rigor the same kind of tests they actually have ways to enter weave with the existing networking certifications because we want people to do both skill paths right to build this new IT team of the future and so it's a completely new set of exams the exams are gonna be available to take February 24th and you can start signing up now so with the definite 500 you know that's gonna be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get dead note certifications it'll be a lifetime achievement they'll always be in the definite 500 right and I've had people coming up and telling me you know I'm signed up for the first day I'm taking my exams on the first day I'm trying to get into them you and I only always want to be on the lift so I think we might be on them and what's really great is with the certifications we've heard from people in the zone that they've been coming and taking classes and learning these skills but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work you know to have that sort of progression and so with the certifications they really will have that and it's also really important for our partners and par is doing a lot of work with certifications and partners yeah definitely that would love to hear a little bit we've interviewed on the cube over the years some of the definite partners from a technology standpoint of course the the channels ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business gives the update as to you know definite partnering as well as what will these certifications mean to both the technology and go to market partners yeah the wonderful thing about this is it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software and making sure that we're providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together and what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of program ability and this new definite specialization which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint from a recognition standpoint that as a practice they have these skills and look at the end of the day it's all about delivering what our customers need and our customers are asking us for significant help in automation digital transformation they're trying to drive new business outcomes and this this will provide that recognition on on who to partner with in the market it's so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the partner ecosystem build data center practices went from the silos and now embracing you've got the hardware the software we're talking multi cloud it's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with where they're going it really is and and another benefit that we're finding and talking to our partners is we're packaging this up and rolling it out is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint from a practice standpoint and from a competitive differentiation standpoint but it'll also help them attract challenge I mean it's no secret there is a talent shortage right now if you talk to any CEO that's top of mind and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people smart people like working on smart things right and so this has really been a big traction point for them as well it's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles so some of the ways that you can combine the new definite certifications with the network engineering certifications we've looked at it and said you know there's there's a role of Network automation developer that's a new role everyone we ask in one of our sessions who needs that person on their team so many customers partners raise their hands like we want the network Automation developer on our team and you can combine you know your CCNP Enterprise with a definite certification and build up the skills to be that Network automation developer certainly has been great buzz I got to get your guys thoughts because certainly it's for careers and you guys are betting on the the people and the people are betting on Cisco mm-hmm yes this is what's going on submit surety of Devin it almost it's like a pinch me moment for you guys because you continue to grow I got to ask you what are some of the cool things that you're showing here as you mature you still have the start here session which is intro to Python and other things pretty elementary and then there's more advanced things what are some of the new things that's going on yeah that you could share so some of the new things we've got going on and one of my favorites is the IOT insecurity demonstration there's a an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot alarm and then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access you know something that that robot was it was using it's getting in the way of it working so you could detect threats and move forward on that we also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing to how you would deploy automation to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi domain automation so really helping engineers like look at that whole progression that's been that's been really popular Park talked about the specialization which ones are more popular or entry-level which ones are people coming into getting certified first network engineering automation first or what's the yeah so we're so the program is going to roll out with three different levels one is a specialized level the second is an advanced level and then we'll look to that third level again they're anchored in the in the individual certs and so as we look for that entry level it's really all about automation right I mean some things you take for granted but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale and have repeatable scalable benefits from that this the second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that an additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience compliance experiences and then that next level again we'll anchor towards the expert level that's coming out but one thing I want to point out is in addition to just having the certified people on staff they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it so it's not just enough to say I've passed an exam as we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really there's a lot behind it that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if a 500 list I don't know that the cube would end up being specialized its advertising no seriously all fun it's all fun it's Cisco live in Europe is there a difference between European and USD seeing any differences in geographic talent you know in the first couple years we did it I think there was a bigger difference it felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the US slightly different in Europe last year and this year I feel like they have converged it's it's the same focus on DevOps automation security as a huge focus in both places and it also feels like the the interest and level of the people attending has also converged it's really similar congratulations been fun to watch the rise and success of Devon it continues to be strong how see in the hub here and the definite zone behind us pact sessions yes what's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success what's what's jumped out yeah I think you know one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit we're hoping it would happen we just didn't realize it would happen this soon we're attracting new companies new partners so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional bars this is also available for our non resale and we are finding different companies accessing definite resources and learning these skills so that's been a really great benefit of Deb net overall definitely my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what the what they went back and did and the change that they drove and they come in their company and I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement take back some new ideas really create change and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them those are my favorite surprises and I tell you we've known for years how important the developer is but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just oh the developer has some tools that they like in the corner the developer connected to the business and driving things forward exactly so perfect timing congratulations on this certification their thing that's been great is that our at Cisco itself we now have API is across the whole portfolio and up and down the stock so that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers so Cisco's API first company we are building it guys everywhere we can and and that the community is is taking them and finding creative things to build it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco but also impact customers has been great to watch far many thanks for coming up yeah games live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco live 20/20 I'm John Ford Dave Dave Alon face to many men we right back with more after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage here at Cisco live 20/20 and partial into Spain I'm John first evening men cube coverage we've got a lot of stuff going on with Cisco multi-cloud and cloud technologies of clarification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now cloud is here here to stay we got two great guests to unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves we got eugene kim global product marketing and compute storage at cisco global part of marketing manager and fabio corey senior director cloud solutions marketing guys great comeback great thanks for coming back appreciate it thanks very much great to see a lot of guys so probably we've had multiple conversations and usually even out from the sales force given kind of the that the discussion and the motivation cloud is big it's here it's here to stay it's changing Cisco API first we hear and all the products it's changing everything what's the story now what's going on I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona it's because this time it's all about the application experience I mean the last two years we've been announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space right think about all the announcements with the AWS the Google's the Azure so the world but this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributed world well there is an application explosion ultimately we will help for the right operations tools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer and that's incredibly important because at the end what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer otherwise ultimately nothing is gonna work and of course you're going to lose your brand and your customers one of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry also Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote you had app dynamics first not networking normally it's like what's under the hood the routers and the gear no it was about the applications this is the story we're seeing it's kind of a quiet unveiling it's not yet a launch but it's evolving very quickly can you share what's going on behind this all this absolutely it's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement if you want from the application experience side of the house is because without dynamics we already have a very very powerful application performance measurement tool which it's evolving extremely rapidly first of all after Amex can correlate not just the application performance to some technology kpi's but to true actual business KPIs so AB dynamics can give you for instance the real-time visibility of say a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level and that's the dynamics experience journey Maps what are those it's actually the ability of focusing not so much on front-ends and backends and databases performances but really focusing on what the user is seeing in front of his or her screen and so what really matters is capturing the journey that a given user of your application is is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver oh you have like a sudden drop of somewhere and you know why that is important because in the end we've been talking about is it a problem of the application performance user performance well it could be a badly designed page how do you know and so this is a very precious information is that were giving to application developers not just to the IT ops guys that is incredibly precious to get this in so you just brought up that journey so that's part of the news so just break down real quick one minute yeah what the news is yeah so we have three components the first one as you as you correctly pointed out is really introduction the application journey Maps right the experience journey Maps that's very very important the second is we are actually integrating after am it's with the inter-site action inter-site optimization manager the workload team is a workload promisor and so because there is a change of data between the two now you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem we have a workload problem or infrastructure problem which is ultimate what you really need to do as quickly as you can and thirdly we have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform which is hyper-converged flat G flat for Cisco with a fully containerized version we tax free if you want as well there is a great platform for containerized application of parameter so you teen when I've been talking to customers last few years when they go through their transformational journey there's the modernization they need to do the patterns I've seen most successful is first you modernize the platform often HCI is you know and often for that it really simplifies the environment you know reduces the silos and has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is and then if I've got a good platform then I can modernize the applications on top of it but often those two have been a little bit disconnected it feels like the announcements now that they are coming together what are you seeing what are you hearing how is your solution set solving this issue yeah exactly I mean as we've been talking to our customers love them are going through different application modernisations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them and to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs and so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talked to us about a lot of it has to be able to it's got to be very simple very turnkey and a fully integrated ready to turn on the other one is something that's very agile right very DevOps friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on Prem as far we mentioned high flex application platform takes our hyper-converged system and builds on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability and it provides a full stack fully supported element platform for our customers and the one of the best great aspects of is that's all managed from inside from the physical infrastructure to the hyper-converged layer to all the way to the container management so it's very exciting to have that full stack management and insight as well yeah it's great to you know John and I have been following this kubernetes wave you know since the early early days Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Google's the world because you know a few years ago you talked to customers and they're like oh well I'm just gonna build my own urbanity right back nobody ever said that is easy now just delivering at his service seems to be the way most people wanted so if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google they've got their manage service that I could do that or that they're through partners they're working with so explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment because I'm tram absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation the customers need yes so essentially from the customer experience perspective as I mentioned it's very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flicks application platform we're taking our hyper grew software we're integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it Linux KVM based and then on top of that we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top as well and so in essence right it's a fully curated kubernetes stack right it has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and and providing that in a very turnkey way and as I mentioned the inner site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management ok Fabio this the previous announcement you've made with the public clouds yeah this just ties into those hybrid environments that's exactly you know a few years ago people like oh is there gonna be a distribution that wins in kubernetes we don't think that's the answer but still I can't just move between kubernetes you know seamlessly yet but this is moving towards that direction so a lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation at the same time they want of course a multi cloud approach and I really care about you know marking the difference between you know multi-cloud hybrid cloud there's been a lot of confusion but if you think about it multi cloud is really rooted into the business need of harnessing innovation from whatever it comes from you know the different clouds PV different things and you know what they do today tomorrow it could even change so people want option maladie so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking security and application of workload management and we've been executing towards that goal to fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid environments I want you to nail that operations on ibrid that's where multi cloud comes in absolutely just a connection point absolutely you're not a shitty mice no isn't a shit so in order to fulfill your business like your I know business needs you then you have a hybrid problem and you want to really kind of have a consistent production rate environment between fins on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better now of course there are different school of thoughts but most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every clock I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is because a lot of times it's a point the finger at the other first and where's it's the application problem isn't a problem so I want to get into that but first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform Eugene if you could just share the main problem that you guys saw what did some of the pain points that customers had what problems does the AP solve yeah as I mentioned it's really the platform for our customers to modernize their applications on right and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right really the ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to you know but you know bringing any third party hypervisor licenses as well as support cost so that's fully integrated there you have your integrated hyper-converged storage capability you have the cloud-based management and that's really developing you providing that developer DevOps simplicity from the data Julie that they're looking for internally as well as for their product production environments and then the other aspect is its simplicity to be able to manage all this right in the entire lifecycle management as well so it's the operational side of the whole yeah uncovers Papio on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a little bit skeptical you know normally rightfully so but I can see in a problem where it's like whose fault is it gasification is problem or the network I mean it runs into more serious workloads the banking app that's having trouble how do you know where it what the problem is and how do you solve that problem what what's going on for that specific issue absolutely and you know the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side right and I love what our app dynamics VP GM Danny winoker said you know it has this terminology beast DevOps which you know may sound like an interesting acrobatics but it's absolutely true the business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because as you said you know developer edges you know drops their containers and their code to the IET ops team but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is gonna be in the code or in how the application is actually deployed or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU so in the end it boils down to one very important thing you have to have visibility inside and take action and every layer of the stack I mean instrumentation absolutely there are players that only do it in their software overlay domain the problem is very often these kind of players assume that underneath links are fine and very often they're not so in the end this visibility inside inaction is the loop that everybody is going after these days to really get to the next if you want generational operation where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace right regardless of your IT ops if you're faster than your competitor well still still was questioning the GM of AppDynamics running observability and he's like no it's not to feature it's everywhere so he his comment was yeah but serve abilities don't really talk about it because it's big din do you agree with that absolutely it has to be at every layer of the stack and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stack from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problem otherwise the finger-pointing quote-unquote will continue and you will not be able to gain the speed that you need okay so the question on my mind I want to get both of you guys can weigh in on this is that you look at Cisco as a company you got a lot going on I mean a guy's huge customer base core routers - no applications there's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity you got IOT security Ramirez talked about that you got the WebEx rooms got totally popular it's kind of got a lot of glam to it having the WebEx kind of you know I guess what virtual presence was yeah telepresence kind of model and then you get cloud is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything because you can't do IOT edge without having some sort of cloud operational things so there's stuff you're talking about is not just a division it's kind of gonna it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco what's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around clarification well I would say it's it's a couple of dimension the first one is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture that of course is the cornerstone of Cisco's technology strategy right if you think about it it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the user the applications themselves like if you look at the latest stats from IDC 58% of workloads is heading to the public cloud and to the edge it's like the data center is literally exploding in many different directions so you have this highly distributed kind of fabric guess what sits in between all these applications and microservices is a secure network and that's exactly what we're executing upon now that's the first kind of consideration the second is if you look at the other silver line most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure you look at the IP flex ap is actually managed by inter site which is a SAS kind of component this journey started a long time ago with Cisco Meraki and then of course we have SAS properties like WebEx everything else is kind of absolutely migrants reporter we've been reporting eugen that from years ago we saw the movement where api's are starting to come in when you go back five years ago not a lot of the gear and stuff at Cisco had api's now you got api's building into all the new products that's right you see the software shift with you know you know intent-based networking to AppDynamics it's interesting it's you're seeing kind of this agile mindset this is some of you and I talk about all the time but agile now is the new model is it ready for customers I mean the normal Enterprise is still got the infrastructure and application it's separated okay how do I bring it together what are you guys seeing the customer base what's going on with with not that not the early adopters heavy-duty hardcore pioneers out there but you know the the general mainstream enterprise are they there yet have they had that moment of awakening yeah I mean I think they they are there because fundamentally it's all about that ensuring that application experience and you can only ensure that application experience right by having your application teams and your structure teams work together and that's what's exciting you mentioned the API is and what we've done there with AppDynamics integrating with inter-site workload optimizer as Fabio mentioned it's all about visibility inside action and what app dynamics is provides providing that business and end-user application performance experience visibility inner sites giving you know visibility on the underlining workload and the resources whether it's on Prem in your you know drive data center environment or in different type of cloud providers so you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inner side local optimizer is then also optimizing the resources to proactively ensure that application experience so before you know if we talk about someone at a checkout and they're about to have abandonment because the functions not working we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that so you know in the end I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with app dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application is performing and at the same time if there's an issue the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology where the issue is and insert' aeneas lee whether it be manual intervention or even automatically there's or a ops capability go ahead and provide that action so the action could be you know scaling out the VMS it's on-prem or looking at a new different type of ec2 template in the cloud that's what's very exciting about this it's really the application experience is now driving and optimizing infrastructure in real time and let me flip your question like do you even have a choice John when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications if you're a large enterprise you have 5 to 7,000 apps you have another to 3,000 applications just coming into into the the frame and then 50% of the existing ones that are gonna be refactor lifted and shifted or replace or retired by SAS application it's just like it's tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh by the way because of again the micro service is kind of affect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly like last year we were eight average interdependencies for applications now we are 20 so imaging imaging what happens as as you are literally flooded with the way the scanner really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can still and I have been toilet for at least five years now if not longer the networking has been the key kind of last changeover - clarification and I would agree with you guys I think I've asked the question because I wanted to get your perspective but think about it it's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that a mobile app can change business but now if you look at the pressure the network's bringing the pressure on the network or the pressure for the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data I mean so you got mobile check now you've got video I mean more people doing video now than ever before videos of consumer oil as streaming you got data these two things absolutely forced yeah the customers to deal with it but what really tipped the the balance John is is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because as you know it's in IT sort of inflection points nothing is linear right so once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps and we're absolutely there already all of a sudden you're traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically so why in the world are you continuing kind of you know concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the internet you have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level as close to the users as possible and that implies a radical change I would even add to that and I think you guys are right on where you guys are going it may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco but in the keynote the business model shifts come from SAS so you got all this technical stuff going on now you have this Asif ocation or cloud that's changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players can get better so I think that whole business model conversation yeah never was discussed at Cisco live before yeah in depth as well hey run your business connect your hubs campus move packets around that was applications in business model yeah but also the fact that there is increasing number of software capabilities and so fundamental you want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer by now using what they really need right at any given point in time all the way to having enterprise agreements I also think that's about delivering these application experiences for your business small different type experience that's really what's differentiating you from your different competitors right and so I think that's a different type of shift as well well you guys are good got some good angle on this cloud I love it I got to ask you the question what can we expect next from Cisco more progression along clarification what's next well I would say we've been incredibly consistent I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy which again is centered around helping customers really gluon this mix set of data centers and clouds to make it work as one write as much as possible and so what we really deliver is networking security and application of performance management and we're integrating there's more and more on the two sides of the equation right the the designer side and the powerful outside and more more integrating in between all of these layers again to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster we'll continue doing so and you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to the sales teams what are they what's their vibe with the sales team they get excited by this what's that oh yeah feedback oh yeah absolutely from the inner side were claw optimizer and they have dynamics that's very exciting for them especially the conversations they're having with their customers really from that application experience and proactively insuring it and on the hyper flex application platform side this is extremely exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers and you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize their applications on hyper flex you guys are riding some pretty big waves here at Cisco I get a cloud way to get the IOT Security wave it's pretty exciting pretty big stuff thanks for coming in thanks for sharing the insights Fabio I appreciate it thank you for having us your coverage here in Barcelona I'm John Force dude Minutemen be back with more coverage fourth day of four days of cube coverage we right back after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] why Trump Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back to Barcelona everybody we're here at Cisco live and you're watching the cube the leader in live tech coverage we got to the events and extract the signal from the noise this is day one really we started a zero yesterday Eric Hertzog is here he's the CMO and vice president of storage channels probably been on the cube more than [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back everyone's two cubes live coverage day four of four days of wall-to-wall action here in Barcelona Spain Francisco live 2020 I'm John Ferrier with mykos Dave Volante with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco live the president of Europe Middle East Africa and Russia Francisco Wendy Mars cube alumni great to see you thanks for coming on to kind of put a bookend to the show here thanks for joining us right there it's absolutely great to be here thank you so what a transformation as Cisco's business model of continues to evolve we've been saying brick by brick we still think is a big move coming I think there's more action I can sense the walls talking to us like let's just go live in the US and more technical announcements in the next 24 months you can see you can see where it's going it's cloud its apps yeah its policy based program ability it's really a whole nother business model shift for you and your customers the technology shift and the business model shift so I want to get your perspective of this year opening key no you let it off talking about the philosophy of the business model but also the first presenter was not a networking guy it was an application person yeah app dynamics yep this is a shift what's going on with Cisco what's happening what's the story well you know if you look for all of the work that we're doing is but is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers the change that's happening in the market and it is all around you know if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in how do they capture that opportunity how do they use technology to help them but you know if you look at it really there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution it's actually the business operations for for organisations plus their people there are people in the communities within that those three things working together and if you look at it with you know it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco that linkage of the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network and bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insight and the value our customers are looking for you know we've been talking about the in the innovation sandwich you know you got you know date in the middle and you got technology and applications underneath that's kind of what's going on here but you I'm glad you brought up the year the part about business model business operations and people in communities because during your keno you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars yes people in communities business model and business operations there was no 800 series in there there was no product discussions this is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing I tweeted provocatively the killer app and digital the business model because you think about it the applications are the business and what's running under the covers is the technology but it's all shifting and changing so every single vertical every single business is impacted by this it's not like a certain secular thing in the industry this is a real change can you describe how those three things are operating with that constitute think if you look from you know so thinking through those three areas if you look at the actual business model itself our business models as organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers we are all much more specific about what we want we have incredible choice in the market we are more informed than ever before but also we are interested in the values of the organizations that were getting the capability from as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain so if you look in that business model itself this is about you know organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring but also that they have a strong strong focus around the experience that their customer gains from an application a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels which is at the end of the day the application then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems the tools and the processes as we all evolve our businesses you have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that and then of course in driving any transformation the critical success factor is your people and your culture you need your teams with you the way teams operate now is incredibly different it's no longer command and control its agile capability coming together you need that to deliver on any transformation never never mind let it be smooth you know in the execution there so it's all three together what I like about that model and I have to say we this is you know ten years to do in the cube you you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens not surprising as we entered the last decade it was a lot of talk about cloud well it kind of was a good predictor we heard a lot about digital transformations a lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword but we really are I feel like an exiting this cloud era into the digital era it feels real and there are companies that you know get it and are leaning in there are others that maybe you're complacent I'm wondering what you're seeing in in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital yeah be CEO wants to get it right but there is complacency there when it's a services say well I'm doing pretty well not on my watch others say hey we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted what are you seeing in the region in terms of that sentiment I would say across the region you know there will always be verticals and industries that are slightly more advanced than others but I would say that then the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance of transfer digital transformation is here it is affecting my business i if I don't disrupt I myself will be disrupted and be challenged help me so I you know I'm not disputing the end state I need guidance and support to drive the transition and a risk mythic mitigated manner and they're looking for help in that and there's actually pressure in the boardroom now around a what are we doing within within organizations within that enterprise the service right of the public said to any type of style of company there's that pressure point in the boardroom of come on we need to move it speed now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role in contribute it's not the be-all end-all but plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations and developing and nurturing communities can you add more specifics what role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three spheres so I think you know if you look at it technology is fundamental to all of those spheres in regard to the innovation the differentiation technology can bring then the key challenges one of being able to reply us in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business so in then the customers organization otherwise it's just technology for the sake of technology so we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case the use cases the way by which that innovation can be used to deliver the value to the organization and also different ways by which a company will work look at the collaboration capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility look at the app D discussion of helping to link the layer of the application into the infrastructure the network's to get to root cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you thought it actually arises and causes downtime many many ways I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation a gel methodology technology software development no problem check that's ten years ago but business agility mmm it's moving from a buzzword to reality exactly that's what you're kind of getting in here and teams how teams operate how they work you know and being able to be quick efficient stand up stand down and operate in that way you know we were kind of thinking out loud on the cube and just riffing with Fabio gory on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with Eugene Kim around just just kind of real-time what was interesting is we're like okay it's been 13 years since the iPhone and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe Middle East Africa mobilities been around before the iPhone so with in more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region so you got you out you have a region that's pretty much I think the tell signs for what's going on in North America and around the world and so you think about that you say okay how is value created how the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay if the value activities are shifting and be more agile and the economics are changing with sass if someone's not on this bandwagon it's not an in-state discussion where it's done deal yeah it's but I think also there were some other conversation which which are very prevalent here is in in the region so around trust around privacy law understanding compliance you look at data where data resides portability of that data GDP are came from Europe you know and as ban is pushed out and those conversations will continue as we go over time and if I also look at you know the dialogue that you saw so you know within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain you know from a climate standpoint and many other areas as well Dave and I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from it's coming from Europe region not so much the u.s. I mean us discuss some crazy innovations but look at blockchain us is like don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States little bit dangerous to but that's where innovation is coming from and this is really the key that we're focused on I want to get your thoughts on how do you see it going next level the next level next-gen business model what's your what's your vision so I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like with the introduction of artificial intelligence robotics capability 5g of course you know on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona in a few weeks time and if you talked about with the iPhone the smartphone of course when 4G was introduced no one knew what the use case would that would be it was the smartphone which wasn't around at that time so with 5g in the capability there that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and the capability and what we can bring to market when we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important some of the things you were talking about before it's interesting what you're saying John and when the the GDP are set the standard and and you see in the u.s. there are stovepipes for that standard California is going to do one every state is going to have a different center that's going to slow things down that's going to slow down progress do you see sort of an extension of a GDP are like framework of being adopted across the region and that potentially you know accelerating some of these you know sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward I think I think the will because I think there'll be more and more you know if you look at there's this terminology of data is the new oil what do you do with data how do you actually get value from that data and make intelligent business decisions around that so you know that's critical but yet if you look for all of ours we are extremely passionate about you know where is our data used again back to trust and privacy you need compliance you need regulation you know I think this is just the beginning of how we will see that evolve you know when do I get your thoughts does Dave and I have been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage long live storage and but data needs to be stored somewhere networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away in fact there's more pressure now forget the smartphone that was 13 years ago before that mobility data and video now super important driver that's putting more pressure on you guys and so hey we're networking so it's kind of like Moore's law it's like more networking more networking so video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video but if you look at the Internet of the future you know what so if you look for all of us now we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access to that and inter vetted the future the next phase we want even more so there'll be more and more - you know requirement for speed availability that reliability of service the way by which we engage and we communicate there's some fundamentals there so continuing to to grow which is which is so so exciting for us so you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of c-level executives I got to believe security is up there as a topic what other what's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers so I think that there's a huge excitement around the opportunity realizing the value of the of the opportunity you know if you look at top of mind conversations are around security around making sure that you can make tank maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the custom will go elsewhere how do you do that how do you enrich at all times and also looking at markets adjacencies you know as you go in and you talk at senior levels within within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in there are a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve and actually one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate at and when is it too fast and when is what am I too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for companies so you feel like sentiment is still strong even though we're 10 years into this this bull market you know you got Briggs it you get you know China tensions with the US u.s. elections but but generally you see Tennessee sentiment still pretty strong and demand so I would say that the the excitement around technology the opportunity that is there around technology in its broadest sense is greater than ever before and I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume I see value from us but it's you know it's fantastic science it tastes trying to get some economic indicators but really the real thing I'm trying to get you is Minh set of the CEO the corner office right now is it is it we're gonna we're gonna grow short-term by cutting or do we do are we gonna be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity and it's probably both you're seeing a lot of automation yeah and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations it's it's that the three things helped me to make money how me to save money keep me out of trouble you know so those are the pivots they all operate with and you know depending on where an organization is in its journey whether a start-up there you know in in the in the mid or the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in as well there's all different variables you know so it's it's it's mix Wendy thanks so much for spending the time to come on the cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching if you haven't seen the keynote opening sections that's a good section the business model I think it's really right on I think that's going to be a conversation it's going to continue thanks for sharing that before we look before we leave I want to just ask you a question around what you what's going on for you here at Barcelona as the show winds down you had all your activities take us in the day of the life of what you do customer meetings what were some of those conversations take us inside inside what what goes on for you here well I'd say it's been an amazing it's been an amazing few days so it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes we just talked about conversations with partners and there's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with and also you know spending time with the teams as well the DEF net zone you know is amazing we have this afternoon the closing session where we've got a fantastic external guest who's coming in it's going to be really exciting as well and then of course the party tonight and we'll be announcing the next location which I'm not gonna reveal now later on today we kind of figured it out already because that's our job and there's the break news but we're not gonna break it for you you can have that hey thank you so much for coming on really appreciate Wendy Martin expecting the Europe Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got our hand on the pulse and the future is the business model that's what's going on fundamental radical change across the board in all areas this the cue bringing you all the action here in Barcelona thanks for watching [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music]

>>Fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back everyone cubes live coverage from Barcelona, Spain. We are here for Cisco live 20 twists to keeps coverage. I'm Chomper with myself. It goes to minimum. This has been four days of coverage. We got another day tomorrow. A lot of action around application developers and programmable infrastructure and really at the heart of this is hybrid cloud and multi-cloud, which is the future of where the enterprises are going. And really it's at the center of it is the suppliers, the cloud service providers. I say Cisco power. They've got two great guests and cube alumni. David cope, senior director of cloud business development, Cisco, Benjamin MacLean, EMIA chief product officer for three D S outscale. Guys, welcome back. Good to see you again. Thanks for coming. Benjamin. We talked to two years ago here I think was what the early days when we started publicly riffing on the notion of cloud service providers going to start to be really more instrumental in how enterprises will deploy and manage workloads and applications. So we were right, it turns out we were right. We >>went actually even even further than that is. Um, so now I'll scale is not only a primary care provider or now we also have a, an on prem solution. So you can uh, we can deploy all stacks, uh, on your prem with hardware, software and services. And we actually, uh, start building locally compliance, uh, stacks. So in France we actually got the second class certification for the French government and we are also working for the ITI FedRAMP certification for the U S >>great. Take a minute to give an update of the busy. You just had an acquisition, you're now part of a different company. Explain that and the relationship to the bigger company. >>So, um, I'll scale was actually founded in 2010 and we actually started to provide to be called services starting 2012, something like this. And a decile system was always one of the big customers. Um, they were actually transforming themselves from being a software vendor to a software as a service company, which is a huge move for a company this size. And we are actually supporting them going this direction and they felt that they needed, uh, to intern to have an internal support, uh, phone call services, uh, within the group so that we actually part of the family now. >>Well congratulations. But I think this trust of the larger trend, David, we talked about how cloud service right are going to be merged emerging as more of a focal point. The global system integrators are already doing it. This is a tell sign for how enterprises, large enterprises, they start to be thinking they need people to support them with multiple, their own stacks, their own in house teams supporting these new workloads. What's your thoughts on, >>well, I mean I think these guys are a great example of sort of the evolution we've seen with the cloud. I think came out of beta in 2008 or something like that. And, and since then we've seen cloud go through sort of skepticism, >>experimentation, debate about private versus public. But today I think both desires and also tools have enabled companies to start focusing just on their business and realize now they can place and manage workloads wherever their business priorities drive them, not it constraints. And so you can get the best of both worlds. You can support this agility and yeah, you can also start to manage governance and policies across these very different private and public environments. Benjamin, bring us a little bit inside your really hybrid solution. You're helping with customers. Uh, we've had many years looking at this. I've seen some providers say, Oh, we're going to help put a stack on your environment, but if you let it touch it, Oh well I need to adjust something or make a change. And then you know, if you're helping manage it, Oh wait, you're, you're out of compliance. You've done something different from an application standpoint. We have seen, I, I might have my monolith in my data center, I have microservices in the public cloud or you know, in your service provider there. It makes sense to do that. But help us understand kind of what goes where, who manages what and what's really happening for your customers. So, >>uh, we try to come in with a very simple approach where basically the perimeter of responsibility is the same everywhere you go. So whether you're on prem or into the cloud, you should see your focus on your application and your area of expertise as a company and being able to deliver to your customers. And um, so we just want to make sure that's focused for our customers. Very easy to say, okay, it's not because I'm on prem, then I need to do it jobs. I'm still need to manage the application. And um, since Oscar is actually providing both public cloud and on premise solution, we want to provide it with as much as solution isolation as possible. And that's one of the reasons why else get actually, uh, was integrated within Cisco cloud center. So we can actually live rate, uh, the governance across the board, the, the immersion 80 of of deploy, application, deployment, whatever, wherever you are. And it's exactly the same thing for the customer. You don't have to sacrifice anything because you're on frame or you want it to be out. >>What specifically about Cisco is driving that? Because you said a couple of things that caught my attention. One is you're providing a platform so the apps could work anywhere. I heard you kind of tease that that is that one of the things that Cisco is bringing to the table. What's the, what's the Cisco value there? >>For me it's um, we, I mean it's been like 40 years that this goes around and they always, uh, worked, uh, to actually bring bridges between platforms, between solutions, between companies. And I feel that the, exactly why we're actually using the solution. So it's different for each. It's not a network bridge for this one, it's more an application ratio. Uh, I would say a pipeline application bridge and that's where we actually find the value for us. Your >>thoughts real quick, go off on tangent a little bit on the operating model of cloud, cause we were riffing on this two years ago. This is now the big conversation here. Hybrid really is all about having that operating model, whether it's on public or on premises. How do you guys serving your customers when they have an app? Hey I got a dad, I just want to build my app. I don't care where it is and I have my operation gotta be seamless across. How are you implementing that? >>To be honest, I don't feel like it's like it's a, we are still, we are not there yet. I feel companies still struggle to actually uh, build an app, being able to deploy whatever the tenants they choose, whether it's going to be a to be cloud provider or an American one. They under your plan one or even a Chinese one now. And uh, all on trend. And since the stacks are always different, they always have to pay for the difference within this platform on their side. And I feel like the tools are actually helping these companies. So it's not actually the cloud providers making the Fort is usually the tools and the ecosystem around these providers are actually providing more tools and more solutions. So it's easier for the companies that actually manage the application at the end. >>David, maybe you can help us dig in a little bit to the management and the software that Cisco's uh, working on and delivering here to help with these type of environments. You know, the way I look at the world is is businesses have applications, applications run on infrastructure in the state of the industry today is you should no longer care about where that application is running. It's just infrastructure. It's in my data center. It's in somebody else's data center called the cloud. So the state of the business today is how do I create sort of a declarative model which describes my application independent of having to know the nuances of each of the end points and then be able to manage the entire life cycle from optimizing cost, performance placement and then the ongoing policy based governance. And for us, that management platform is cloud center, which is a cloud management platform. There's others in the industry that take a similar approach. But that really is where this blurring of data centers and clouds supporting any apps, uh, is, is occurring because your, what's some of the workloads that you guys work on? Give some anecdotal feedback on some of the day to day things you're working on. Is it on premise driving the action? Is that the app developers, your customers, but you have, you're serving multiple, a big company, right? >>Yeah. Um, from what I seen is, uh, we have a lot of traction on OnPrem solution because historically it's been, uh, usual stacks, which are usually lack of usability for the customers. Um, they are now used to use it to the public cloud, the features, the capabilities, the agility, and then where you'll go by, you're going back on frame. You, you, you feel like you're traveling time, bike and backwards. And that's, that's usually an issue, uh, with our solution where we don't change the level of responsibility of the customer. So it doesn't have to have a data center, people, operation people. It's still the same guys that were actually working into the public out and they are going to operate exactly the same way on prem. So that's a huge premise for this for these companies right now. Yeah. Yeah. Actually. Great. So we deployed a one like the beginning of this year to last year and it's gonna continue to grow. Uh, especially if you're a dental assistant company, uh, as a, >>I forgot to ask you as an expert then Nirvana, the Holy grail or whatever word we want to use is to have applications just completely have programmable infrastructure. That's the dev ops, you know, Holy grail, which we're getting there. Yeah. Where are we in your mind, how far do we have to go to get the app developers just coding away in the progress of innovation? What's your thoughts on where the industry is and what we're dealing with here? >>I think you can already do it. If you sacrifice a part of your freedom or your part or part of your possibility. We can find tools that actually working pretty well with each other. But once you're in, you're going to be in for at once. The issue is more always going to become a more standardized way to actually work for this company. And that means also for us providers to provide kind of assemble level of interface and the same which works. So the company, and I mean so apart from code center, like the application actually being able to work across infrastructure platforms, whatever they are, I be cloud center for the cross platform work. Yeah. So customer is one of these tools that actually kind of, uh, leverage different platforms and don't really care. And as a user, you don't really care all the difference you can deploy, whether it's going to be on VMware, on to the cloud, and you don't expect the same level of capability in terms of infrastructure. But still you still deploy exactly the same pipelines and some workloads exactly the same way. >>What do I have to think about it? Whether it's, whether it's so managing all of its operating divisions or whether it's it ops trying to manage its developers is there's this sort of natural, some usually unspoken tension where it ops wants to support the agility that developers are looking for in business units are looking for, but at the same time it ops is torn because they have to ensure governance and security and all that. So today I think with these new platforms you do a little bit of judo frankly, is you are allowed developers or operating units to use the environment or tools of choice, but you still have these new cloud management platforms that allow you to apply and enforce governance. And those policies can either be exposed to them or it can be hidden from them. You get to choose, well that's the choice is key in the policy. >>It means automation. Yes, the policies nailed down the business logic. Get automation exactly as the Holy wishes even better, which I'm psyched to see more of that. But I got to ask you guys, I stopped at your Cisco booth, your multi-cloud with this. By the way, I love the demos over there. You get all the Cisco servers, provide everything else, but you guys got a multi cloud section. Of course there's a lot of Kubernetes being discussed there. So Benjamin, I got to get your take on this because Stu and I always joke, the joke is just broke containers around it. You can do anything. You're dealing with a lot of on premises legacy and enterprise stuff Coubernetties and as service meshes come down the pike and micro services, that seems to be really a great way to deal with it. How were you looking at that? What's your vision and how, what are some of the practitioner tools that are out there? What's your view on that? >>For me, the appeal of communities for, for the customers is, uh, less, uh, a way to work than the fact that it's actually is, is a standout. So we are talking about the fact that wherever you are, you're always a, I think different APA calls a different way to educate yourself differently. Policy management. And I feel that the appeal of communities is that you can use it over any cloud platform in the world. And he's always failed to send me, they always behave the same way and he's kind of the promise. The same is that you can get with containers, but you get it on the orchestration layer of these containers. Uh, and I feel that that's why people are quite rushing into it because they feel that if it doesn't work there, then it might work somewhere else. >>So are you dealing with some of these enterprise applications? What do you guys do? >>Um, so the interest for se, so we just, we provide, uh, the control plane or the master nodes and usually customers see or manage the resources or the, the resource pool, uh, on which they're going to deploy containers in whatever we S we still manage mostly VMs and block storage. So the, the basic breaks of any, uh, infrastructure as a service provider and um, and the customers start from there and actually build on the application and they can even reuse things that have been done somewhere else. Uh, in any other cloud platform. >>David, talk about the Cisco vision here because I think you guys have been seeing this now. I used the multi-cloud is kind of a future state that's out. See everyone has multicloud now, but hybrid is where the action is and this by getting this common operating model with you've got these Kubernetes trends and things coming down the pipe with micro services that really is impacting the momentum. How do you guys see that? What's your position on this? >> I think you're right. I mean when you look at Kubernetes specifically, I think it's obviously maturing from just developer centric activities now into production. Most Kubernetes today, it has been deployed on prem or in the cloud, but now that's the foundation that's going to enable the future of hybrid workloads where I can start again. Blurring the boundaries between data centers and clouds develop on the cloud, prod on prem, develop on prem, access to service on the cloud. >>So we're just starting to see sort of these hybrid Coobernetti's workflows. And Cisco has a container platform that's native Kubernetes but we've also, it runs on prem but it's also optimized to work with public clouds that support Kubernetes. And so it really becomes a single environment, a pool of resources for the application. >> I think it sets the table nicely for the app developers, the future because end of the day students just develop your app and yeah, things go and happen. Benjamin, final question while you're here. I want to get your expert opinion on this because I want to kind of go back to our 2018 and modernized our chat a little bit around cloud service providers because I think this is still going to be the hottest area because I think you are, you're a unique, you got acquired and you're still servicing a big customer base, but you're now part of the mother I guess. Um, which is good. You got a lot of work to do, but cloud service providers will still serve as a lot of customers and this is going to be a fast growing market. What's your advice for other cloud service providers out there that are really trying to understand how do I build my infrastructure? How do I deal with the clouds? Do I just go all in on one, do I build my own? How do I serve as the on premises? What's your advice? >>I think like if your company, a main area of expertise is not it, you shouldn't actually invest, uh, in house. Its, I think nowadays we, you, we have like, and I'm not talking only about our scale, but we have like a lot of different solution, a lot of, uh, technological partners such as Cisco and NetApp, uh, that have a great solution that actually proven, uh, there is solution as ourselves. So at scale. Um, so I feel like anything that you do try to be or from the ground, uh, would have a huge advantage in terms of, of time of technology. Um, and again, for any other cloud provider. I think also we're going to see kind of the separation we're talking about in 2018 is still going to continue to exist and I think it's going to even increase where we're going to see, um, local compliance or great regulation. I actually for the past two years, uh, dramatically increased in terms of of strengths and numbers and uh, and that, and I feel like the approach of Muti local cloud as we've been pushing for the past 10 years within our scale, it makes even more sense. >>Do you see specialty clouds emerging fast or are building on say Amazon, Google or other clouds or what do you see? >>Yeah, to be honest, I even think that the, the big three in the U S are even starting to find their own place, which is not the same. And I feel we're going to see the same thing with the Chinese and reopen actors as well. >>Awesome. Benjamin's great to have you on. Great to have your insight from the field. Appreciate David. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate that insight from Cisco as well. It's the cube coverage day. Three of our four days of coverage on shofar is do men and men stay with us for more coverage from Barcelona after this short break?

>>Fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the QS live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John. My coasts do many minutes. We are in the dev net. Similar all the action is the accused third year covering where dev net has been evolving into the centerpiece of Cisco strategy. And all the sessions are here. We've got a great guest. Make D as product marketing for Cisco with umbrella is a takeover going on here. The Devin, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. So tell us about umbrella, cause that's a new brand open DNS kind of confer. What's the story with umbrella? Give us the update. >>Sure. So umbrella was first really developed an introduced in the market in 2012 under the open DNS company. We were acquired by Cisco in 2015 and rebranded it to Cisco umbrella. So we've taken the same great product that we've had for years and just continued to develop and add to it. >>And what's the main features now as that same product? Has it been integrated in, cause everything's becoming API base here. We're seeing that. What's the tweak? Is it security? What's the main linkage with the Cisco? >>Yeah, so um, umbrella really started off, uh, providing DNS layer security. So it was often an added layer or foundational layer that customers would use to reduce the amount of malware, make sure that their users were protected anywhere that they were connecting to the internet. And so we've taken that. It's, it's always been developed as an open platform and we've continued to add additional API APIs to it and a lot of additional security features too. So beyond just DNS, we now have a full secure web gateway cloud delivered firewall, uh, Cosby capabilities. So there's been a lot of new capabilities that we've built into the product. >>Can you bring us inside a little bit? We've been in the dev net zone for three years, as John said, got to dev net, create that API economy is something that is so important and that's what so many people, I mean we've seen just huge crowds all week. Help us understand how those APIs fit into Cisco and Cisco umbrella. >>Sure. So when you look at, there's a number of API APIs that we've built into umbrella. So to give you some examples, we have a, uh, a device network device API to make it easy to actually integrate different network devices that you have to umbrella. So how do you get that traffic very easily from any device to our cloud platform? So that's one example. Uh, we've rebuilt a lot of integrations but that allows you to, to help build any additional integrations that you want. Um, we have a reporting API that helps you to, you know, automate some of the, the reporting, send it and integrate it with systems that you have. Um, and then another example, even with, uh, all of the intelligence behind umbrella, we make it available through our investigate API. So we see a lot of organizations use that to enrich their Sam or threat intelligence platform. >>So being able to take all of the data that you have within umbrella and make sure that it can be integrated in the right ways. >> Any new features you guys announcing an umbrella that we should know about here this week? >> Yes. One of the big ones that we've I've been talking about at our booth and in some of the sessions is with any connect, so any connect has always been really big for a lot of Cisco customers to protect roaming users and we've had the ability to, I enable a DNS module as part of that, so that enables them to, even when users are off the VPN, their VPN isn't even turned on. They're still getting protection from umbrella and we've taken that and we've also enabled them to leverage our security gateway functionality when users are roaming as well. So that's for the use cases. >>They're on a VPN, they're doing their thing, they go to a coffee shop or go somewhere else or they're, they're moving around. Exactly. And they might not be actually connected to the VPN, so their traffic isn't actually being protected, so they might be connecting directly to the internet. That's where when they have umbrella enabled there, they can still get the right protection for those users. May talk about the dynamics going on with, with injecting hacks in DNS, because this has always been kind of a, you're always been people but always been chasing this because you are rails, they run the internet, we know some URLs could look like PayPal or this or the other bank. And so it becomes kind of a, your URL, DNS management challenge. This is something that's been fundamental for security. What's, what are some of the things that are going on that people should pay attention to? >>Sure. So I think that there's, there's a few different aspects of that that we're really delivering on today. So first of all, when it comes to just, uh, people, uh, trying to get you to click on a link that looks like PayPal, but it's actually not. Um, so there's a number of different methods that we're using in the product to detect that. So one of the things is, is we'll look at, uh, the way that the domain is actually written. A lot of times you can see some, uh, we, we look at, you know, the, the structure of the wording. And sometimes you can see little, uh, little characters or letters or numbers that are off and we can detect that that's happening. But then we also look at the infrastructure beyond behind the domain. So we look at where is that IP, uh, where is that domain actually hosted? Right? So what's the IP address? What other activity do we see happening on that IP address? Cause you can really learn a lot, right? We saw a, a, a, a PayPal, uh, domain that was supposedly a UK PayPal domain, but it was actually hosted on a Bulletproof hosting site, which no legitimate PayPal account would be or domain would be hosted on. So things like that that we're able to detect. >>Yeah. So make us this way. I saw something talked about online puny code. Is this, what we're talking about here is that there's a different topic, >>a little bit different cause that, but yeah, there, there's also, yeah, they could be embedded within puny code, things like that. But this is just some of our fundamental, what we look at when we're determining if a domain is malicious or not. >>Okay. Could you walk us through a little bit, the demos going on? We've got the takeover going on right now. What, what's the umbrella presence here in the dev net zone and throughout Cisco live? >>Yeah, so there's, there's a lot of different areas that we are. So we have a latch of Verna. Uh, the cafe. Uh, we have all of our demo stations. We have theater presentations pretty much running every 15 minutes. So you can learn more on a number of different topics. Uh, we have the dev net takeover, we have a number of breakout sessions that are happening. Um, so there's a lot of activity happening around Cisco live. >>Well the, Cisco's got a huge technical crowd here. Obviously they're their network geeks. They all know DNS. What are some of the conversations you guys are having? What are some of the cool things that are cause that's not know about programming and they getting into different formats? How is the DNS fitting into that? I've saw some cool demos. What are some of the cool tech conversations? >>Yeah, I think, I think a lot of times it's still, um, we're seeing more of a, a an uptake in people understanding that DNS can be used to actually deliver security as well. So I think, you know, those are some of the, the conversations still educating people about how they can add additional layers of security to their environment and DNS being really one of them. Um, I think what we're also seeing is just because with umbrella we're going beyond just DNS and really taking multiple security services, bringing them into a single cloud platform. And that's a lot of the conversation that we're having and that's where you're seeing the market going. So organizations starting to look at how does that fit into their environment, how can they start to architect their network differently for the future and, and how to wrap security in there. So a lot of the conversations we're having are around that. >>It's interesting the whole dynamic internet conversation kids interesting. Because DNS is, you got to resolve, you got named servers, get your resolution to the, to the destination URL and you load the page or app. As you start getting into more of the dynamic situations, the software is programming it. So it's interesting to see how DNS is evolves. You guys are leading the forefront on that. What's your view on that? What do you, how do you guys see that evolving as you got ACI intent based networking app dynamics over the top kind of programming down as DNS fit into all that? How does that, how does that all work? >>Definitely I think, I think DNS continues to be a, you know, a foundational part of how the internet works. And I, I don't see that really changing. I think, you know, some of the things that we've been, or even the different ways that you see attackers leveraging DNS, uh, you're seeing DNS tunneling for example, being one of the kind of, uh, I wouldn't say newer, but it's one of the types of techniques that nation States are using at times when they're actually embedding, you know, data to, into DNS to exfiltrate it. So, you know, things like that we're seeing, uh, come into place of trying to use DNS in, in different ways from the attack side. Yeah. But I think, you know, when you look at the overall, you know, network and, and all of that, it is a really important and kind of core part of this, >>it's interesting is that the international thing too is you submitted your hosting. A lot of these hosting sites are outside of North America, outside of Europe. They're in these countries where it's suspect, you know, and some of the foreign characters sets get interesting cause that's not ASCII, it's Unicode or you've got all kinds of things going on. So it's a complex not that easy is it? >>No, we have a lot of very, very smart people, doctors working on the, uh, the backend on the, on the engineering side to really look at that. And you know, one of the things that we tried to do, even from the beginning was take a different approach to security where we're not just looking strictly at the file hash or just the basic information, but seeing how can you take data science principles and apply them to use security in new ways to uncover attacks even before they launch. >>I gotta say one of the sessions I was walking around the hall, the couple of the main kind of clusters of people was obviously the big panoramic WebEx room was pretty popular. It looks pretty cool, but the IOT security section was packed. As you hit more devices out there, they're just internet addresses too. And there you've got destination, you got URLs over DNS there too. So you have now that edge piece that's a big security perimeter. I mean, and security surface area, I should say. That's popular. People are interested in this. >>Yes. And that's, I mean, and that's one of the big use cases that we've even seen with umbrella is you have hospitals who have all of these IOT devices and you know that are in their patients and, and it's really scary to think about where they could be connecting on the internet. And that's one of the things that we've seen with umbrella is because we're providing some of that security at the DNS layer, you don't need to have an agent or something on those devices when they're on the network. It's protected by umbrella. So that is one of the use cases that we see. >>I got to ask you, because you came from the acquisition open DNS, I know David, the founder of donut when he started. Great company, great success, congratulations to the whole team there. As you guys come into Cisco, what's it like, because startups are, you know, you're hungry, you grow in and then you get in here, it's almost an a waste of tech. He got new divisions. What's it been like at Cisco with the open DNS now? Umbrella brand, same product with some tweaks. What's it like? >>No, I mean it's been amazing. >>I mean I'm still here, uh, you know, almost five years later. Um, and I think one of the things that's been really exciting is, is the fact that we have been able to leverage a lot of the Cisco technology, right? We've embedded, you know, amp technology, threat grid technology, things that, that ultimately, because we're, you know, sharing those resources and, and embedding them, it's going to make the products more secure. It's going to allow us to share more information between products. And I think just the, you know, the investment, I think Cisco sees where the future is going and you know, how important the cloud is, you know, not only from just a, the way that businesses work, but from the security perspective. So there's been a lot of investment in it. Awesome. Well thanks for coming on sharing your insight. I got to ask you kind of an industry question because you've been on, again the startup now Cisco, most normal people like DNS, I know what a URL is, but they know security. So when they asked you a lot, they hae all this fake news, all this malware, spear fishing. I mean the average consumer, they get the security thing. When they asked you what's going on, what, what do you say to them? How do you explain what you do and your vision of how you see the world evolving? >>Sure. I think, I think for a lot of people, I mean I've, I've been in security now for for a while when I started it was really, it was still all the compliance conversation and you were still educating a lot of people on security. But now my grandma knows about it and you know, she'll ask me questions. So I think, you know, it has become so much more mainstream and you know when I, in in simplest terms, I just talked to people about the fact that we are making sure that wherever users are connecting to the internet, they're doing it securely. You know, no matter what application they're trying to access, we can help secure that. And so that's kind of the, >>and be careful what you click on. It would be, you know, the emails you get. Well you don't know what's in there exactly. Well thanks for come on. Great. Great to have you on. Thanks for the insight. Cisco umbrella. It's taking over dev net dev net zone is packed. It just gets bigger every year and this is where people are learning is very community driven. A lot of, a lot of education, a lot of great content. You're starting out or you're more experienced software certifications all here inside the cube coverage of Barcelona. We'll be right back after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE! Covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's live coverage of Cisco Live 2020, here in Barcelona. Our third year of the show, over 17,000 in attendance between the Cisco people, their large partner ecosystem, and the customers, I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost for this segment is Dave Vellante. John Furrier's scouring the show for all of the news at the event, and joining us, we have two first time guests on the program, first, sitting to my left is Patrick Smith, who is the field CTO for EMEA with Pure Storage. Sitting to his left is Eric Greffier, who is the managing director of EMEAR specialists with Cisco, so you have a slightly larger region than Patrick does, gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Patrick: Great to be here. >> All right, so, we know this show, we were talking that broad ecosystem, and of course Cisco in the data center group has very strong storage partnerships, highlighted by their converged infrastructure stacks. I wrote my research many many years ago, Cisco's brilliant job was when they entered the server market, they made sure that that fragmented storage ecosystem, they made partnerships across the board. And of course, when Pure's ascendancy with the flash era made the stack, so helping to paint those data centers orange with your Cisco partnership, so Patrick, give us the update here, 2020, what's interesting and important to know about Pure Storage and Cisco customer base? >> You know, we continue to see significant adoption of FlashStack, our converged infrastructure with Cisco. Driving just great interest and great growth, both for Pure and for Cisco with the UCS platform, and the value that the customers see in FlashStack, bringing together storage, networking and compute together with overall automation of the stack, and that really gives customers fantastic time to value. And that's what they're looking for in this day and age. >> All right, and Eric, what differentiates the partnership with Pure, versus, as you said, you do work with many of the storage companies out there. >> Well, we had a baby together, it was called FlashStack, and it was couple of years ago now, and as you said, I think the key element for us is really to have those CVDs, those Cisco Validated Designs together, and FlashStack was a great addition to our existing partnership at that time, talking about a couple of years ago. And of course, with the flash technology of Pure, we've seen the demand that we'd say going and going, and it has been amazing, amazing trajectory together. >> But talk a little bit more about the CVDs, the different use cases that you're seeing. You don't have to go through all 20, but maybe pick a couple of your favorite children. >> Well, just to make sure that people understand what CVD means, it's Cisco Validated Design, and this is kind of an outcome in the form of a document, which is available for customers and partners, which is the outcome of the partnership from R&D to R&D, which is just telling customers and partners what they need to order and have in it to fit all of this together for a specific business outcome. And the reason why we have multiple CVDs, is we have one CVD per use case. So the more use cases we have together, the more the CVD's precise, and you just have to follow the CVD design principles. Of course, the later swarms, and maybe Patrick can say a word, but we've been of course doing things regarding analytics and AI, because this is a big demand right now, so maybe Patrick, you want to say a word on this. >> Yeah, you guys were first with the AI and bringing AI and storage together with your partnership with Nvidia, so maybe double down on that. >> The FlashBlade was our move into building a storage platform for AI and model analytics, and we've seen tremendous success with that in lots of different verticals. And so with Cisco we launched FlashStack for AI, which brings together FlashBlade networking, and Cisco's fantastic compute platform with capability for considerable scale of Nvidia GPUs. So an in-a-box capability to really deliver fast time to market solutions for the growing world of analytics and modern AI, people want quick insight into the vast amounts of data we have, and so FlashStack for AI is really important for us being able to deliver as part of the Cisco ecosystem, and provide customers with a platform for success. >> What's happening with modernization, generally, but specifically in Europe, obviously Cisco, long history in Europe, Pure, you've got a presence here, good presence, but obviously much newer. Larger proportion, far larger proportion is in North America, so it's a real opportunity for you guys. What are you seeing in terms of modernization of infrastructure, and apps in the European community? >> Modernization I think is particularly important, and it's more and more seen under the guise of digital transformation, because investing in infrastructure just doesn't get the credit that sometimes it deserves. But the big push there is really all around simpler infrastructure, easier management, and the push for automation. Organizations don't want to have large infrastructure support teams who are either installing or managing in a heavy touch way, their environments, and so the push towards automation, not just at the infrastructure layer, but all the way up the stack, is really key. And you know, we were talking earlier, behind us we have the DevNet sessions here, all about how customers of Cisco and by correlation Pure, can really optimize the management to their environment, use technology like Intersight, like Ansible and others, to really minimize the overhead of managing technology, deliver services faster to customers and be more agile, in this always-on world that we live in, there's no time to really add a human to the cycle of managing infrastructure. >> I think we've been very proud over the years because this notion of converged infrastructure, which was, the promise was to simplify and modernize the data centers, before it was like, "Everything needs to get connected to anything," and coming was this notion of a pod, everything converged, "We've done the job for you, mister customer, "just think about adding some pod." This has been the promise for the last 10 years, and we've been very proud, almost to have created this market, but it wouldn't have been possible without the partnership with the storage players, and with Pure, we've been one step further in terms of simplifying things for customers. >> I love the extension you're talking about, because absolutely converged infrastructure was supposed to deliver on that simplicity, and it was, let's think of the entire rack as a unit of how we manage it, but with today's applications, with the speed of change happening in the environment, we've gone beyond human speed, and so therefore if we don't have the automation that you were talking about, we can't keep up with what the business needs to be able to do there. >> Yeah, that's what it's all about, it's the rapid rate of change. Whether it's business services, whether it's supporting developers in the developer environment, more and more our customers are becoming software development organizations, their developers are a key resource, and making them as efficient as possible is really important, so being able to quickly spin up development environments, new environments for developers, using snapshot technology, giving them the latest sets of data to test their applications on, is really central to enabling and empowering the developer. >> You know, you talk about Cisco's play and kind of creation of the converged infrastructure, Mark, and I think that's fair, by the way. Others may claim it, but I think the mantle goes to you. But there were two friction points, or headwinds, that we pointed out early in the day, the first was organizational, the servers team, the storage team, the network team didn't speak together, then the practitioner told us one day, "Look, you want to solve that problem, "put it in and watch what happens." 'Cause if you try to figure out the organization you'll never get there, and that sort of took care of itself. The other was the channel. The channel likes things separate, they can add value, they have this sort of box selling mentality, so I wonder if you could update us on what the mindset is in the channel, and how that's evolved. >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think the channel actually really likes the simplicity of a converged infrastructure to sell, it's a very simple message, and it really empowers the channel to take, to your point about organization, they have the full stack, all in one sellable item, and so they don't have to fight for the different components, it's one consistent unit that they sell as a whole, and so I think it simplifies the channel, and actually, we find that customers are actively seeking out, it's shown by our growth with FlashStack that customers are actually seeking out the channel partners who are selling FlashStack. >> Yeah, and do you think the channel realizes, "Wow, we really do have to go up the stack, "add more value, do things like partner with"? >> Well for most of the partners, they were heavily specialized on storage or compute or network, so for most of them, supporting the converged infrastructure was to be able to put a foot into another market, which was an expansion for them, which was part number one. Part number two, maybe the things that we've been missing, because since the beginning we had APIs around all those platforms. I don't believe in the early days, I'm talking about five years from now, that they got, that they could really really build something upon the converged infrastructure. Now, if you go through the DevNet area here at Cisco Live, you will see that I think this is the time now for them to understand, and really build new services on top of it, so I believe the value for the channel is pretty obvious now, more than ever. >> Well yeah, it's a great point, you don't usually hear converged infrastructure and infrastructure as code in the same conversation, but the maturation of the platforms underneath are bringing things together. >> They really are, in the same way that IT organizations are freeing up more time to focus up the stack on automation and added value, the same is true of the partners. It's interesting the corollary between the two. >> So I have a question on your act two, so what got us here the last 10 years, both firms were disruptors. Cisco came in and disrupted the compute space, it was misunderstood, "Cisco getting into servers, "that'll never work!" "Well, really not getting into servers, "we're changing the game." "Ah, okay," 10 years later. Pure, all-flash, really created some havoc in the industry, injected a ton of flash into the data center, practically drove a truck through the legacy business. Okay, so very successful. What's act two for you guys, what do you envision, disruptors, are you more incrementalists, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. >> I start, Patrick. Probably for us, phase two is what you heard yesterday morning, I think Liz Anthony did a great speech regarding Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer, sorry for the name, this is a bit long, but what it means is now we truly connect the infrastructure to the application performance, and the fact that we can place and discuss about converged infrastructure but in the context of what truly matters for customers, which is application, this is the first time ever you're going to see such amount of R&D put into bringing the two worlds together. So this is just the beginning, but I think this was probably for me yesterday one of the most important announcement ever. And by the way, Pure is coming with this announcement, so if you as a customer buy Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer, you'll get everything you need to know about Pure and if you have to move things around the storage area, you know the tool will be doing it for you. So we are really the two of us in this announcement, so Patrick, if you want to? >> No, I mean as Eric mentioned, Intersight's important for Cisco, it's important for us, we're very proud to be early integrators as a third party into Intersight to allow that simple management, but you know, as you talk about the future, we were viewed as disruptors when we first came to market with flash array, and we consider still ourselves to be disruptors and innovators, and the amount of our revenue that we invest in innovation, in what is a really focused product portfolio, I think is showing benefits, and you've seen the announcements over the last six months or so with FlashArray//C, bringing all the benefits of flash to tier two applications, and just the interest that that has generated is huge. In the world of networking with NVMe, we have a fabric in RoCEv2, just increasing the performance for business applications that will have fantastic implications for things like SAP, time and performance-critical databases, and then what we announced with direct memory with adding SCM as a read cache onto flash array as well. Really giving customers investment protection for what they bought from us already, because they can, as you well know, Evergreen gives customers an asset that continues to appreciate in value, which is completely the opposite. >> And you're both sort of embracing that service consumption model, I mean Cisco's becoming a very large proportion of your business, you guys have announced some actual straight cloud plays, you've built an aray inside of AWS, which is pretty innovative, so. >> Yes, and as well as the cloud play with Cloud Block Store in AWS, there's Pure as a service, which takes that cloud-like consumption model and allows a customer to run it in their own data center without owning the assets, and that's really interesting, because customers have got used to the cloud-like consumption model, and paying as an OpEx rather than CapEx, and so bringing that into their own facility, and only paying for the data you have written, really does change the game in terms of how they consume and think about their storage environments. >> Patrick, we'd just love to get your viewpoint, you've been talking to a lot of customers this week, you said you've been checking out the DevNet zone, for people that didn't make it to the show here, what have they been missing, what would their peers be telling them in the hallway conversations? >> There's a huge amount as we've been talking about, there's a huge amount on automation, and actually we see it as we go into customers, the number of people we're now talking to who are developers but not developers developing business applications but developers developing code for managing infrastructure is key, and you see it all around the DevNet zone. And then, the focus on containers, I've been talking about it for a long time, and containers is so important for enterprises going forward. We have a great play in that space, and I think as we roll forward, the next three to five years, containers is just going to be the important technology that will be prevalent across enterprises large and small. >> Dave: Yeah, we agree. >> Eric and Patrick, thank you so much for giving us the update, congratulations on all the progress and definitely look forward to keeping an eye on your progress. >> Thanks very much. >> All right, Dave Vellante and I will be back with much more here from Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona, thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)