>> Announcer: Live from New York City It's TheCube. Covering CyberConnect 2017. Brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> It got out of control, they were testing it. Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in New York City for CyberConnect 2017. This is Cube's coverage is presented by Centrify. It's an industry event, bringing all the leaders of industry and government together around all the great opportunities to solve the crisis of our generation. That's cyber security. We have Cricket Liu. Chief DNS architect and senior fellow at Infoblox. Cricket, great to see you again. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, nice to be back John. >> So we're live here and really this is the first inaugural event of CyberConnect. Bringing government and industry together. We saw the retired general on stage talking about some of the history, but also the fluid nature. We saw Jim from Aetna, talking about how unconventional tactics and talking about domains and how he was handling email. That's a DNS problem. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You're the DNS guru. DNS has become a role in this. What's going on here around DNS? Why is it important to CyberConnect? >> Well, I'll be talking tomorrow about the first anniversary, well, a little bit later than the first anniversary of the big DDoS attack on Dyn. The DNS hosting provider up in Manchester, New Hampshire. And trying to determine if we've actually learned anything, have we improved our DNS infrastructure in any way in the ensuing year plus? Are we doing anything from the standards, standpoint on protecting DNS infrastructure. Those sorts of things. >> And certainly one of the highlight examples was mobile users are masked by the DNS on, say, email for example. Jim was pointing that out. I got to ask you, because we heard things like sink-holing addresses, hackers create domain names in the first 48 hours to launch attacks. So there's all kinds of tactical things that are being involved with, lets say, domain names for instance. >> Cricket: Yeah, yeah. >> That's part of the critical infrastructure. So, the question is how, in DDoS attacks, denial-of-service attacks, are coming in in the tens of thousands per day? >> Yeah, well that issue that you talked about, in particular the idea that the bad guys register brand new domain names, domain names that initially have no negative reputation associated with them, my friend Paul Vixie and his new company Farsight Security have been working on that. They have what is called a -- >> John: What's the name of the company again? >> Farsight Security. >> Farsight? >> And they have what's called a Passive DNS Database. Which is a database basically of DNS telemetry that is accumulated from big recursive DNS servers around the internet. So they know when a brand new domain name pops up, somewhere on the internet because someone has to resolve it. And they pump all of these brand new domain names into what's called a response policy zone feed. And you can get for example different thresh holds. I want to see the brand new domain names created over the last 30 minutes or seen over the last 30 minutes. And if you block resolution of those brand new domain names, it turns out you block a tremendous amount of really malicious activity. And then after say, 30 minutes if it's a legitimate domain name it falls off the list and you can resolve it. >> So this says your doing DNS signaling as a service for new name registrations because the demand is for software APIs to say "Hey, I want to create some policy around some techniques to sink-hole domain address hacks. Something like that? >> Yeah, basically this goes hand in hand with this new system response policy zone which allows you to implement DNS policy. Something that we've really never before done with DNS servers, which that's actually not quite true. There have been proprietary solutions for it. But response policy zones are an open solution that give you the ability to say "Hey I do want to allow resolution of this domain name, but not this other domain name". And then you can say "Alright, all these brand new domain names, for the first 30 minutes of their existence I don't want-- >> It's like a background check for domain names. >> Yeah, or like a wait list. Okay, you don't get resolved for the first 30 minutes, that gives the sort of traditional, reputational, analyzers, Spamhaus and Serval and people like that a chance to look you over and say "yeah, it's malicious or it's not malicious". >> So serves to be run my Paul Vixie who is the contributor to the DNS protocol-- >> Right, enormous contributor. >> So we should keep an eye on that. Check it out, Paul Vixie. Alright, so DNS's critical infrastructure that we've been talking about, that you and I, love to riff about DNS and the role What's it enabled? Obviously it's ASCII, but I got to ask you, all these Unicode stuff about the emoji and the open source, really it highlight's the Unicode phenomenon. So this is a hacker potential haven. DNS and Unicode distinction. >> It's really interesting from a DNS standpoint, because we went to a lot of effort within the IETF, the Internet Engineering Task Force, some years ago, back when I was more involved in the IETF, some people spent a tremendous amount of effort coming up with a way to use allow people to use Unicode within domain name. So that you could type something into your browser that was in traditional or simplified Chinese or that was in Arabic or was in Hebrew or any number of other scripts. And you could type that in and it would be translated into something that we call puny code, in the DNS community, which is an ASCII equivalent to that. The issue with that though, becomes that there are, we would say glifs, most people I guess would say characters, but there are characters in Unicode that look just like, say Latin alphabet characters. So there's a lowercase 'a' for example, in cyrillic, it's not a lowercase 'a' in the Latin alphabet, it's a cyrillic 'a', but it looks just like an 'a'. So it's possible for people to register names, domain names, that in there Unicode representation, look like for example, PayPal, which of course has two a's in it, and those two a's could be cyrillic a's. >> Not truly the ASCII representation of PayPal which we resolve through the DNS. >> Exactly, so imagine how subtle an attack that would be if you were able to send out a bunch of email, including the links that said www.-- >> Someone's hacked your PayPal account, click here. >> Yeah, exactly. And if you eyeballed it you'd think Well, sure that's www.PayPal.com, but little do you know it's actually not the -- >> So Jim Ruth talked about applying some unconventional methods, because the bad guys don't subscribe to the conventional methods . They don't buy into it. He said that they change up their standards, is what I wrote down, but that was maybe their sort of security footprint. 1.5 times a day, how does that apply to your DNS world, how do you even do that? >> Well, we're beginning to do more and more with analytics DNS. The passive DNS database that I talked about. More and more big security players, including Infoblox are collecting passive DNS data. And you can run interesting analytics on that passive DNS data. And you can, in some cases, automatically detect suspicious or malicious behavior. For example you can say "Hey, look this named IP address mapping is changing really, really rapidly" and that might be an indication of let's say, fast flux. Or you can say "These domain names have really high entropy. We did an engram analysis of the labels of these". The consequence of that we believe that this resolution of these domain names, is actually being used to tunnel data out of an organization or into an organization. So there's some things you can do with these analytical algorithms in order to suss out suspicious and malicious. >> And you're doing that in as close to real time as possible, presumably right? >> Cricket: That's right. >> And so, now everybody's talking about Edge, Edge computing, Edge analytics. How will the Edge effect your ability to keep up? >> Well, the challenge I think with doing analytics on passive DNS is that you have to be able to collect that data from a lot of places. The more places that you have, the more sensors that you have collecting passive DNS data the better. You need to be able to get it out from the Edge. From those local recursive DNS servers that are actually responding to the query's that come from say your smart phone or your laptop or what have you. If you don't have that kind of data, you've only got, say, big ISPs, then you may not detect the compromise of somebody's corporate network, for example. >> I was looking at some stats when I asked the IOT questions, 'cause you're kind of teasing out kind of the edge of the network and with mobile and wearables as the general was pointing out, is that it's going to create more service area, but I just also saw a story, I don't know if it's from Google or wherever, but 80% plus roughly, websites are going to have SSL HTBS that they're resolving through. And there's reports out here that a lot of the anti virus provisions have been failing because of compromised certificates. And to quote someone from Research Park, and we want to get your reaction to this "Our results show", this is from University of Maryland College Park. "Our results show that compromised certificates pose a bigger threat than we previously believed, and is not restricted to advanced threats and digitally signed malware was common in the wild." Well before Stuxnet. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And so breaches have been caused by compromising certificates of actual authority. So this brings up the whole SSL was supposed to be solving this, that's just one problem. Now you've got the certificates, well before Stuxnet. So Stuxnet really was kind of going on before Stuxnet. Now you've got the edge of the network. Who has the DNS control for these devices? Is it kind of like failing? Is it crumbling? How do we get that trust back? >> That's a good question. One of the issues that we've had is that at various points, CAs, Certificate Authorities, have been conned into issuing certificates for websites that they shouldn't have. For example, "Hey, generate a cert for me". >> John: The Chinese do it all the time. >> Exactly. I run www. Bank of America .com. They give it to the wrong guy. He installs it. We have I think, something like 1,500 top level certification authorities. Something crazy like that. Dan Komenski had a number in one of his blog posts and it was absolutely ridiculous. The number of different CA's that we trust that are built into the most common browsers, like Chrome and Firefox and things like that. We're actually trying to address some of those issues with DNS, so there are two new resource records being introduced to DNS. One is TLSA. >> John: TLSA? >> Yeah, TLSA. And the other one is called CAA I think, which always makes me think of a California Automotive Association. (laughter) But TLSA is basically a way of publishing data in your own zone that says My cert looks like this. You can say "This is my cert." You can just completely go around the CA. And you can say "This is my cert" and then your DNS sec sign your zone and you're done. Or you can do something short of that and you can say "My cert should look like this "and it should have this CA. "This is my CA. "Don't trust any other one" >> So it's metadata about the cert or the cert itself. >> Exactly, so that way if somebody manages to go get a cert for your website, but they get that cert from some untrustworthy CA. I don't know who that would be. >> John: Or a comprimised-- >> Right, or a compromised CA. No body would trust it. No body who actually looks up the TSLA record because they'll go "Oh, Okay. I can see that Infoblox's cert that their CA is Symantech. And this is not a Symantech signed cert. So I'm not going to believe it". And at the same time this CAA record is designed to be consumed by the CA's themselves, and it's a way of saying, say Infoblox can say "We are a customer of Symantech or whoever" And when somebody goes to the cert and says "Hey, I want to generate a certificate for www.Infoblox.com, they'll look it up and say "Oh, they're a Symantech customer, I'm not going to do that for you". >> So it creates trust. So how does this impact the edge of the network, because the question really is, the question that's on everyone's mind is, does the internet of things create more trust or does it create more vulnerabilities? Everyone knows it's a surface area, but still there are technical solutions when you're talking about, how does this play out in your mind? How does Infoblox see it? How do you see it? What's Paul Vixie working on, does that tie into it? Because out in the hinterlands and the edge of the network and the wild, is it like a DNS server on the device. It could be a sensor? How are they resolving things? What is the protocol for these? >> At least this gives you a greater assurance if you're using TLS to encrypt communication between a client and a web server or some other resource out there on the internet. It at least gives you a better assurance that you really aren't being spoofed. That you're going to the right place. That your communications are secure. So that's all really good. IOT, I think of as slightly orthogonal to that. IOT is still a real challenge. I mean there is so many IOT devices out there. I look at IOT though, and I'll talk about this tomorrow, and actually I've got a live event on Thursday, where I'll talk about it some more with my friend Matt Larson. >> John: Is that going to be here in New York? >> Actually we're going to be broadcasting out of Washington, D.C. >> John: Were you streaming that? >> It is streamed. In fact it's only streamed. >> John: Put a plug in for the URL. >> If you go to www.Infoblox.com I think it's one of the first things that will slide into your view. >> So you're putting it onto your company site. Infoblox.com. You and Matt Larson. Okay, cool. Thursday event, check it out. >> It is somewhat embarrassingly called Cricket Liu Live. >> You're a celebrity. >> It's also Matt Larson Live. >> Both of you guys know what you're talking about. It's great. >> So there's a discussion among certain boards of directors that says, "Look, we're losing the battle, "we're losing the war. "We got to shift more on response "and at least cover our butts. "And get some of our response mechanisms in place." What do you advise those boards? What's the right balance between sort of defense perimeter, core infrastructure, and response. >> Well, I would certainly advocate as a DNS guy, that people instrument their DNS infrastructure to the extent that they can to be able to detect evidence of compromise. And that's a relatively straight forward thing to do. And most organizations haven't gone through the trouble to plumb their DNS infrastructure into their, for example, their sim infrastructure, so they can get query log information, they can use RPZs to flag when a client looks up the domain name of a known command and control server, which is a clear indication of compromise. Those sorts of things. I think that's really important. It's a pretty easy win. I do think at this point that we have to resign ourselves to the idea that we have devices on our network that are infected. That game is lost. There's no more crunchy outer shell security. It just doesn't really work. So you have to have defensive depth as they say. >> Now servs has been around for such a long time. It's been one of those threats that just keeps coming. It's like waves and waves. So it looks like there's some things happening, that's cool. So I got to ask you, CyberConnect is the first real inaugural event that brings industry and some obviously government and tech geeks together, but it's not black hat or ETF. It's not those geeky forums. It's really a business community coming together. What's your take of this event? What's your observations? What are you seeing here? >> Well, I'm really excited to actually get the opportunity to talk to people who are chiefly security people. I think that's kind of a novelty for me, because most of the time I think I speak to people who are chiefly networking people and in particular that little niche of networking people who are interested in DNS. Although truth be told, maybe they're not really interested in DNS, maybe they just put up with me. >> Well the community is really strong. The DNS community has always been organically grown and reliable. >> But I love the idea of talking about DNS security to a security audience. And hopefully some of the folks we get to talk to here, will come away from it thinking oh, wow, so I didn't even realize that my DNS infrastructure could actually be a security tool for me. Could actually be helpful in any way in detecting compromise. >> And what about this final question, 'cause I know we got a time check here. But, operational impact of some of these DNS changes that are coming down from Paul Vixie, you and Matt Larson doing some things together, What's the impact of the customer and they say "okay, DNS will play a role in how I role out my architecture. New solutions for cyber, IOT is right around the corner. What's the impact to them in your mind operationally. >> There certainly is some operational impact, for example if you want to subscribe to RPZ feeds, you've got to become a customer of somebody who provides a commercial RPZ feed or somebody who provides a free RPZ feed. You have to plumb that into your DNS infrastructure. You have to make sure that it continues transferring. You have to plumb that into your sim, so when you get a hit against an RPZ, you're notified about it, your security folks. All that stuff is routine day to day stuff. Nothing out of the ordinary. >> No radical plumbing changes. >> Right, but I think one of the big challenges in so many of the organizations that I go to visit, the security organization and the networking organization are in different silos and they don't necessarily communicate a lot. So maybe the more difficult operational challenge is just making sure that you have that communication. And that the security guys know the DNS guys, the networking guys, and vice versa. And they cooperate to work on problems. >> This seems to be the big collaboration thing that's happening here. That it's more of a community model coming together, rather than security. Cricket Liu here, DNS, Chief Architect of DNS and senior fellow of Infoblox. The legend in the DNS community. Paul Vixie amongst the peers. Really that community holding down the fort I'll see a lot of exploits that they have to watch out for. Thanks for your commentary here at the CyberConnect 2017 inaugural event. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>> Hello, we are here On the Ground. This is theCUBE's On the Ground program at Centrify's Headquarters. We go to Cricket Liu, chief DNS officer at Infoblox. Been with the company from the beginning. Great to see you again. Wrote the book on DNS. What year was that? That was between DNS, was like, when I was born. >> Yeah, 1992. September 1992 was when it was published. >> Great to see you. We've done some podcasts together over the years. >> Yeah, good to see you too. >> DNS, now obviously global, ICANN's now global, it's part of the U.N., all different governance bodies, but it's certainly still critical infrastructure. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Critical infrastructure is now the big conversation as the security paradigm has moved from data center to the Cloud, there's no perimeter anymore. >> Yeah. >> How is that changing the DNS game? >> Well, I think that folks are starting to realize how critical DNS is. In October of last year, we had that huge DDoS attack against Dyn, the big DNS hosting provider in New Hampshire and I think that woke a lot of folks up. A lot of folks realized, holy cow, these guys are not too big to fail as they say. Even though they have enormous infrastructure, widely distributed around the globe, they have such a concentrational power that a huge number of really, really popular web properties were inaccessible for quite sometime, so I think that caused a lot of people to look at their own DNS infrastructure and to reevaluate it and say, well maybe I need to do something. >> Interesting about the stack wars that are going on, that attack, as we've lived through and you've been part of it as chief technical officer in many companies. DNS was always that part where it'd be secure but now you have block change, you have new kinds of infrastructure with mobile computing now over 10 years post iPhone. >> Yep, the critical moment. >> How has infrastructure changed, beyond DNS 'cause it still needs to work together? >> Yeah, well, it's funny because we do have all of these new types of devices. We do have new technologies. But a lot of things have remained the same. DNS is still the same. The remarkable thing is that the latest version in my book is 10 years old, actually 11 years old now, so it's older than the iPhone and people still buy it because the underlying theory is still the same. It hasn't changed. It's a testament, really, to the quality of the original design of DNS that it still works for anything and that it's scaled to serve a network as diverse and as large as the internet is today. >> What's your biggest observation, looking back over the past decade with DNS, about the emergence of virtual machines, now Cloud. Again, the game is still the same 'cause DNS is the plumbing and it provides a lot of the key critical infrastructure for the web and now mobile. What's the biggest observations that you've seen over the decade? >> Well I'd say one of the things that's happened over the last several years that's maybe the most important development in DNS is something that we call response policy zones. Up until now, DNS servers have just been sort of blithely complicit when it comes to, for example, malware. Malware wakes up on a device and it assumes that it has DNS available to it and it uses DNS, for example, to find command to control server, maybe a drop server to exfiltrate data to. In the DNS server, even though it's being asked to look up the address record for CommandAndControlServer.Malware.Org, it just happily goes along with it. A few years ago, Paul Vixie, who I've known for a very long time, came up with this idea called response policy zones which is basically to imbue our DNS servers with resolution policy so that you can tell them, hey if you get a query for a domain name that we know is being used maliciously, don't answer it. Don't resolve it like you normally do. Instead, hand back a little white lie like that doesn't exist and moreover, log the fact that somebody looked it up because it's a good indication that they're infected. >> So bringing policy to DNS is really making it more intelligent. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And certainly as networks grow, I was just watching some of my friends setting up the wireless at Burning Man and the whole new change of how Wi-Fi is being deployed and how networks are being constructed is really coming down to some of the basic principles of DNS to route more, be responsive, and this is kind of a new change. >> Yeah, there's a lot going on in changes to the deployment of DNS. It used to be that most big companies ran all their own DNS infrastructure. At this point, I think most large companies don't bother running, for example, what we'd call their external authoritative DNS infrastructure. They give that to a big hosting provider to do, somebody like Dyn or Verisign or Neustar or somebody like that, so that's a big change. >> Cricket, I want to ask you about the CyberConnect Event going on in New York. Infoblox is involved. Security is paramount, so now an industry event. Centrify is the main sponsor. You guys are involved as a vendor, but it's not a vendor event, it's a industry event. It's a broad category. What's your thoughts on this kind of industry event? Usually in events it's been Black Hat or vendor events pushing their wares and selling their stuff but now security is global. What's your take on this event? >> Well, I'm hoping to be able to spend a little bit of time talking to folks who come to the event about DNS and how it can be used as a tool in their security tool chain. The folks who come to us as Infoblox to our events already know about DNS. They're already network administrators or they're responsible for DNS or something like that. My hope is that we can reach a broader audience through CyberConnect and actually talk to folks who maybe haven't considered DNS as a security tool. Who maybe haven't thought about the necessity to bolster their DNS infrastructure. >> One final question since we're on bonus material time. I've got to ask you about the global landscape. I mean, in my early days involved in DNS when I came was from the '98 to the 2000 time frame. International domain names were Unicode. That's not ASCII. So that technically wasn't DNS, but still, they were keywords. They had this global landscape in, say, China, that actually wasn't DNS so there's all these abstraction layers. Has anything actually evolved out of that trend of really bringing an abstraction layer on top of DNS and certainly now with the nation-states with security are issues, China, Russia, et cetera. How does all that play out? >> Well, international domain names have actually taken off in some areas. And basically it's as you say, you have the ability now to use Unicode labels in domain names in certain contexts, for example, if you're using your web browser you can type in a Unicode domain name and then what the web browser does is it translates it into an equivalent ASCII representation and then resolves it using DNS which is the traditional DNS that doesn't actually know about Unicode. There are actually some very interesting security implications to using Unicode. For example, people can register things that have Unicode, we would say, glyphs in them that look exactly like regular ASCII characters. For example, you could register paypal.com where the A's are actually lowercase A's in Cyrillic. It's not the same code point as an ASCII A. So it's visually. >> Great for hackers. >> Oh yeah. Visually indistinguishable from paypal.com in a lot of contexts and people might click on it and go to a page that looks like PayPal's. >> John: So its a phishing dream. >> Yeah, really dangerous potentially and so we're working out some of the implications of that, trying to figure out, within, for example, web browsers, how do we protect the user from things like this? >> And a lot of SSL out there, now you're seeing HTTPS everywhere. Is that now the norm? >> Yeah, actually, within the internet engineering task force, the IETF, after it became obvious that state-sponsored-- >> John: Attacks. >> Eavesdropping. >> You were smiling. >> Was kind of the norm. >> Got to find the right word. >> Yeah, the IETF embarked on an effort called DPRIVE and DPRIVE is basically a bunch of individual tracks to encrypt basically every single part of the DNS channel, especially that between what we call a stub resolver and the recursive DNS server so that if you're a customer here in the United States and a subscriber to an ISP like Comcast or whomever, you can make sure that that first hop between your computer and the ISP is secured. >> We're getting down and dirty under the hood with Cricket Liu on DNS. I got to ask kind of up level to the consumer. One of the things that kind of pisses me off the most when I'm surfing the web is you see the browser doesn't resolve or you go hit someone's website, oh yeah, something.io, these new domain names, top level gTLDs are out there, .media, all these, and companies have firewalls or whatever their equipment is and it doesn't let it through. Because they're trying to protect the perimeter still, must be, I mean, what does that mean when companies aren't letting those URLs then, it is a firewall issue or is it more they're still perimeter based, they're not resolving it, they're afraid of malware? Somethings aren't resolving in? What does that mean? >> Well I think as often as not it's an operational problem. It could be just a misconfiguration on the part of the folks who are hosting the target website's DNS. It could be that. I don't know a lot of folks who-- >> So it's one of their policies or something, it's just kind of locking down. >> Could be that too. Or it could be, for example, that they have a proxy server and they're trying to limit access to the internet by category. Maybe it does categorization and filtering by-- >> Can you work on that? Can you write some code for that? Well thanks, great to see you, thanks for sharing this conversation here On The Ground at Centrify. >> You're welcome. >> And good luck with the CyberConnect Conference. >> Yeah, nice to see you too. >> Alright, I'm John Furrier with On The Ground here on theCUBE at Centfity's headquarters in Silicon Valley. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Good morning everybody. Welcome back to Las Vegas. This is day four of theCUBE's wall-to-wall coverage of our Super Bowl, aka AWS re:Invent 2022. I'm here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. My name is Dave Vellante. Sanjay Poonen is in the house, CEO and president of Cohesity. He's sitting in as our guest market watcher, market analyst, you know, deep expertise, new to the job at Cohesity. He was kind enough to sit in, and help us break down what's happening at re:Invent. But Paul, first thing, this morning we heard from Werner Vogels. He was basically given a masterclass on system design. It reminded me of mainframes years ago. When we used to, you know, bury through those IBM blue books and red books. You remember those Sanjay? That's how we- learned back then. >> Oh God, I remember those, Yeah. >> But it made me think, wow, now you know IBM's more of a systems design, nobody talks about IBM anymore. Everybody talks about Amazon. So you wonder, 20 years from now, you know what it's going to be. But >> Well- >> Werner's amazing. >> He pulled out a 24 year old document. >> Yup. >> That he had written early in Amazon's evolution about synchronous design or about essentially distributed architectures that turned out to be prophetic. >> His big thing was nature is asynchronous. So systems are asynchronous. Synchronous is an illusion. It's an abstraction. It's kind of interesting. But, you know- >> Yeah, I mean I've had synonyms for things. Timeless architecture. Werner's an absolute legend. I mean, when you think about folks who've had, you know, impact on technology, you think of people like Jony Ive in design. >> Dave: Yeah. >> You got to think about people like Werner in architecture and just the fact that Andy and the team have been able to keep him engaged that long... I pay attention to his keynote. Peter DeSantis has obviously been very, very influential. And then of course, you know, Adam did a good job, you know, watching from, you know, having watched since I was at the first AWS re:Invent conference, at time was President SAP and there was only a thousand people at this event, okay? Andy had me on stage. I think I was one of the first guest of any tech company in 2011. And to see now this become like, it's a mecca. It's a mother of all IT events, and watch sort of even the transition from Andy to Adam is very special. I got to catch some of Ruba's keynote. So while there's some new people in the mix here, this has become a force of nature. And the last time I was here was 2019, before Covid, watched the last two ones online. But it feels like, I don't know 'about what you guys think, it feels like it's back to 2019 levels. >> I was here in 2019. I feel like this was bigger than 2019 but some people have said that it's about the same. >> I think it was 60,000 versus 50,000. >> Yes. So close. >> It was a little bigger in 2019. But it feels like it's more active. >> And then last year, Sanjay, you weren't here but it was 25,000, which was amazing 'cause it was right in that little space between Omicron, before Omicron hit. But you know, let me ask you a question and this is really more of a question about Amazon's maturity and I know you've been following them since early days. But the way I get the question, number one question I get from people is how is Amazon AWS going to be different under Adam than it was under Andy? What do you think? >> I mean, Adam's not new because he was here before. In some senses he knows the Amazon culture from prior, when he was running sales and marketing prior. But then he took the time off and came back. I mean, this will always be, I think, somewhat Andy's baby, right? Because he was the... I, you know, sent him a text, "You should be really proud of what you accomplished", but you know, I think he also, I asked him when I saw him a few weeks ago "Are you going to come to re:Invent?" And he says, "No, I want to leave this to be Adam's show." And Adam's going to have a slightly different view. His keynotes are probably half the time. It's a little bit more vision. There was a lot more customer stories at the beginning of it. Taking you back to the inspirational pieces of it. I think you're going to see them probably pulling up the stack and not just focused in infrastructure. Many of their platform services are evolved. Many of their, even application services. I'm surprised when I talk to customers. Like Amazon Connect, their sort of call center type technologies, an app layer. It's getting a lot. I mean, I've talked to a couple of Fortune 500 companies that are moving off Ayer to Connect. I mean, it's happening and I did not know that. So it's, you know, I think as they move up the stack, the platform's gotten more... The data centric stack has gotten, and you know, in the area we're working with Cohesity, security, data protection, they're an investor in our company. So this is an important, you know, both... I think tech player and a partner for many companies like us. >> I wonder the, you know, the marketplace... there's been a big push on the marketplace by all the cloud companies last couple of years. Do you see that disrupting the way softwares, enterprise software is sold? >> Oh, for sure. I mean, you have to be a ostrich with your head in the sand to not see this wave happening. I mean, what's it? $150 billion worth of revenue. Even though the growth rates dipped a little bit the last quarter or so, it's still aggregatively between Amazon and Azure and Google, you know, 30% growth. And I think we're still in the second or third inning off a grand 1 trillion or 2 trillion of IT, shifting not all of it to the cloud, but significantly faster. So if you add up all of the big things of the on-premise world, they're, you know, they got to a certain size, their growth is stable, but stalling. These guys are growing significantly faster. And then if you add on top of them, platform companies the data companies, Snowflake, MongoDB, Databricks, you know, Datadog, and then apps companies on top of that. I think the move to the Cloud is inevitable. In SaaS companies, I don't know why you would ever implement a CRM solution on-prem. It's all gone to the Cloud. >> Oh, it is. >> That happened 15 years ago. I mean, begin within three, five years of the advent of Salesforce. And the same thing in HR. Why would you deploy a HR solution now? You've got Workday, you've got, you know, others that are so some of those apps markets are are just never coming back to an on-prem capability. >> Sanjay, I want to ask you, you built a reputation for being able to, you know, forecast accurately, hit your plan, you know, you hit your numbers, you're awesome operator. Even though you have a, you know, technology degree, which you know, that's a two-tool star, multi-tool star. But I call it the slingshot economy. This is like, I mean I've seen probably more downturns than anybody in here, you know, given... Well maybe, maybe- >> Maybe me. >> You and I both. I've never seen anything like this, where where visibility is so unpredictable. The economy is sling-shotting. It's like, oh, hurry up, go Covid, go, go go build, build, build supply, then pull back. And now going forward, now pulling back. Slootman said, you know, on the call, "Hey the guide, is the guide." He said, "we put it out there, We do our best to hit it." But you had CrowdStrike had issues you know, mid-market, ServiceNow. I saw McDermott on the other day on the, on the TV. I just want to pay, you know, buy from the guy. He's so (indistinct) >> But mixed, mixed results, Salesforce, you know, Octa now pre-announcing, hey, they're going to be, or announcing, you know, better visibility, forward guide. Elastic kind of got hit really hard. HPE and Dell actually doing really well in the enterprise. >> Yep. >> 'Course Dell getting killed in the client. But so what are you seeing out there? How, as an executive, do you deal with such poor visibility? >> I think, listen, what the last two or three years have taught us is, you know, with the supply chain crisis, with the surge that people thought you may need of, you know, spending potentially in the pandemic, you have to start off with your tech platform being 10 x better than everybody else. And differentiate, differentiate. 'Cause in a crowded market, but even in a market that's getting tougher, if you're not differentiating constantly through technology innovation, you're going to get left behind. So you named a few places, they're all technology innovators, but even if some of them are having challenges, and then I think you're constantly asking yourselves, how do you move from being a point product to a platform with more and more services where you're getting, you know, many of them moving really fast. In the case of Roe, I like him a lot. He's probably one of the most savvy operators, also that I respect. He calls these speedboats, and you know, his core platform started off with the firewall network security. But he's built now a very credible cloud security, cloud AI security business. And I think that's how you need to be thinking as a tech executive. I mean, if you got core, your core beachhead 10 x better than everybody else. And as you move to adjacencies in these new platforms, have you got now speedboats that are getting to a point where they are competitive advantage? Then as you think of the go-to-market perspective, it really depends on where you are as a company. For a company like our size, we need partners a lot more. Because if we're going to, you know, stand on the shoulders of giants like Isaac Newton said, "I see clearly because I stand on the shoulders giants." I need to really go and cultivate Amazon so they become our lead partner in cloud. And then appropriately Microsoft and Google where I need to. And security. Part of what we announced last week was, last month, yeah, last couple of weeks ago, was the data security alliance with the biggest security players. What was I trying to do with that? First time ever done in my industry was get Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, Wallace, Tenable, CyberArk, Splunk, all to build an alliance with me so I could stand on their shoulders with them helping me. If you're a bigger company, you're constantly asking yourself "how do you make sure you're getting your, like Amazon, their top hundred customers spending more with that?" So I think the the playbook evolves, and I'm watching some of these best companies through this time navigate through this. And I think leadership is going to be tested in enormously interesting ways. >> I'll say. I mean, Snowflake is really interesting because they... 67% growth, which is, I mean, that's best in class for a company that's $2 billion. And, but their guide was still, you know, pretty aggressive. You know, so it's like, do you, you know, when it when it's good times you go, "hey, we can we can guide conservatively and know we can beat it." But when you're not certain, you can't dial down too far 'cause your investors start to bail on you. It's a really tricky- >> But Dave, I think listen, at the end of the day, I mean every CEO should not be worried about the short term up and down in the stock price. You're building a long-term multi-billion dollar company. In the case of Frank, he has, I think I shot to a $10 billion, you know, analytics data warehousing data management company on the back of that platform, because he's eyeing the market that, not just Teradata occupies today, but now Oracle occupies or other databases, right? So his tam as it grows bigger, you're going to have some of these things, but that market's big. I think same with Palo Alto. I mean Datadog's another company, 75% growth. >> Yeah. >> At 20% margins, like almost rule of 95. >> Amazing. >> When they're going after, not just the observability market, they're eating up the sim market, security analytics, the APM market. So I think, you know, that's, you look at these case studies of companies who are going from point product to platforms and are steadily able to grow into new tams. You know, to me that's very inspiring. >> I get it. >> Sanjay: That's what I seek to do at our com. >> I get that it's a marathon, but you know, when you're at VMware, weren't you looking at the stock price every day just out of curiosity? I mean listen, you weren't micromanaging it. >> You do, but at the end of the day, and you certainly look at the days of earnings and so on so forth. >> Yeah. >> Because you want to create shareholder value. >> Yeah. >> I'm not saying that you should not but I think in obsession with that, you know, in a short term, >> Going to kill ya. >> Makes you, you know, sort of myopically focused on what may not be the right thing in the long term. Now in the long arc of time, if you're not creating shareholder value... Look at what happened to Steve Bomber. You needed Satya to come in to change things and he's created a lot of value. >> Dave: Yeah, big time. >> But I think in the short term, my comments were really on the quarter to quarter, but over a four a 12 quarter, if companies are growing and creating profitable growth, they're going to get the valuation they deserve. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Do you the... I want to ask you about something Arvind Krishna said in the previous IBM earnings call, that IT is deflationary and therefore it is resistant to the macroeconomic headwinds. So IT spending should actually thrive in a deflation, in a adverse economic climate. Do you think that's true? >> Not all forms of IT. I pay very close attention to surveys from, whether it's the industry analysts or the Morgan Stanleys, or Goldman Sachs. The financial analysts. And I think there's a gluc in certain sectors that will get pulled back. Traditional view is when the economies are growing people spend on the top line, front office stuff, sales, marketing. If you go and look at just the cloud 100 companies, which are the hottest private companies, and maybe with the public market companies, there's way too many companies focused on sales and marketing. Way too many. I think during a downsizing and recession, that's going to probably shrink some, because they were all built for the 2009 to 2021 era, where it was all about the top line. Okay, maybe there's now a proposition for companies who are focused on cost optimization, supply chain visibility. Security's been intangible, that I think is going to continue to an investment. So I tell, listen, if you are a tech investor or if you're an operator, pay attention to CIO priorities. And right now, in our business at Cohesity, part of the reason we've embraced things like ransomware protection, there is a big focus on security. And you know, by intelligently being a management and a security company around data, I do believe we'll continue to be extremely relevant to CIO budgets. There's a ransomware, 20 ransomware attempts every second. So things of that kind make you relevant in a bank. You have to stay relevant to a buying pattern or else you lose momentum. >> But I think what's happening now is actually IT spending's pretty good. I mean, I track this stuff pretty closely. It's just that expectations were so high and now you're seeing earnings estimates come down and so, okay, and then you, yeah, you've got the, you know the inflationary factors and your discounted cash flows but the market's actually pretty good. >> Yeah. >> You know, relative to other downturns that if this is not a... We're not actually not in a downturn. >> Yeah. >> Not yet anyway. It may be. >> There's a valuation there. >> You have to prepare. >> Not sales. >> Yeah, that's right. >> When I was on CNBC, I said "listen, it's a little bit like that story of Joseph. Seven years of feast, seven years of famine." You have to prepare for potentially your worst. And if it's not the worst, you're in good shape. So will it be a recession 2023? Maybe. You know, high interest rates, inflation, war in Russia, Ukraine, maybe things do get bad. But if you belt tightening, if you're focused in operational excellence, if it's not a recession, you're pleasantly surprised. If it is one, you're prepared for it. >> All right. I'm going to put you in the spot and ask you for predictions. Expert analysis on the World Cup. What do you think? Give us the breakdown. (group laughs) >> As my... I wish India was in the World Cup, but you can't get enough Indians at all to play soccer well enough, but we're not, >> You play cricket, though. >> I'm a US man first. I would love to see one of Brazil, or Argentina. And as a Messi person, I don't know if you'll get that, but it would be really special for Messi to lead, to end his career like Maradonna winning a World Cup. I don't know if that'll happen. I'm probably going to go one of the Latin American countries, if the US doesn't make it far enough. But first loyalty to the US team, and then after one of the Latin American countries. >> And you think one of the Latin American countries is best bet to win or? >> I don't know. It's hard to tell. They're all... What happens now at this stage >> So close, right? >> is anybody could win. >> Yeah. You just have lots of shots of gold. I'm a big soccer fan. It could, I mean, I don't know if the US is favored to win, but if they get far enough, you get to the finals, anybody could win. >> I think they get Netherlands next, right? >> That's tough. >> Really tough. >> But... The European teams are good too, but I would like to see US go far enough, and then I'd like to see Latin America with team one of Argentina, or Brazil. That's my prediction. >> I know you're a big Cricket fan. Are you able to follow Cricket the way you like? >> At god unearthly times the night because they're in Australia, right? >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> I watched the T-20 World Cup, select games of it. Yeah, you know, I'm not rapidly following every single game but the World Cup games, I catch you. >> Yeah, it's good. >> It's good. I mean, I love every sport. American football, soccer. >> That's great. >> You get into basketball now, I mean, I hope the Warriors come back strong. Hey, how about the Warriors Celtics? What do we think? We do it again? >> Well- >> This year. >> I'll tell you what- >> As a Boston Celtics- >> I would love that. I actually still, I have to pay off some folks from Palo Alto office with some bets still. We are seeing unprecedented NBA performance this year. >> Yeah. >> It's amazing. You look at the stats, it's like nothing. I know it's early. Like nothing we've ever seen before. So it's exciting. >> Well, always a pleasure talking to you guys. >> Great to have you on. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. Love the expert analysis. >> Sanjay Poonen. Dave Vellante. Keep it right there. re:Invent 2022, day four. We're winding up in Las Vegas. We'll be right back. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (lighthearted soft music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Espania this is theCUBE the leader in live tech coverage, we're here in Barcelona, at Cisco Live 2020 inside the Devnet zone. This is day one Eric Herzog is back to talk about cybersecurity he's the CMO and vice president of global channels for IBM storage, good to see you again my friend. >> Dave, Stu, thank you very much for having us we love being on theCUBE and you are the leaders in IT information no one better especially for realtime. >> Thank you very much for that so we're going to talk cyber, very important topic it's a big tailwind for Cisco, IBM obviously a big player in security its on every CIO's mind. What's your angle though in storage specifically? >> Sure, what I think one of the key things is that when people think security they think keep the bad guy out and when the bad guy gets in chase him down and catch him. What they don't realize is sometimes it could be a day, a week or weeks till they know the bad guy is in. So how are you going to protect yourself when all your valuable data is exposed like that, and then when you do have an incident, particularly malware or ransomware, how do you come back to a state where you know you have good data and you basically don't have to pay the ransom or in the case of malware that data is good data. So we can help on both fronts with the things we've done with our cyber resiliency play inside our storage portfolio. So compliments and gives IT and the CSO as well as the CIO, an overall comprehensive security strategy so that when they're in my house how am I keeping them from somehow stealing it even though they're in the house, that's what we can help with. >> Okay I see where you're going here so and by the way I've seen stats that say it's upwards of two hundred or three hundred days before people even realize they've been infiltrated and then it becomes a matter of okay how do I respond, now you've got malware, not only malware but you've got ransomware, and so let's talk more specifically about how you attack that problem. Do you help me sort of find when somethings been penetrated? By looking at the backup corpus? analytics? what do you guys do? >> So we do a couple things, so first of all we do have in our Spectrum Protect Suite, which is our modern data protection, it does the backup et cetera is we can detect anomalous activity in backup data sets, snaps and replicas. We use AI and machine learning to understand if that's a new occurrence so lets take an example, the backup data set runs from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. at midnight you have all kinds of weirdo backup activity, why? Because if you're malware or ransomware you want to get to the secondary data sets first before you attack the primary otherwise they'll just go back to the secondary, yeah they'll lose some time but they'll go to that. So we can detect that and alert the backup admin the storage admin whoever you tell us to do. Then overtime if that process changes and so you're always going to have certain activity at time that previously didn't. We learn that and stop sending alerts and stop sending notes. And obviously we don't say we think it's malware this or ransomware that, what we do is alert them to anomalous activity as an attack could be starting. So that's just one of the things we do, we have much more that we do in cyber resiliency, but in that case monitoring and detection, threat detection, we help do by looking at secondary data sets. >> Eric, wonder if you could bring us on sign to the organization of your customers, because is this something that just the storage team buys or are you being bought in you said by the CSO or you know some other organization and you know want it installed then how does this play out inside the organization? >> Sure, so it's a hybrid strategy so lets take for example, we have a thing called Safeguarded Copy, we've had it for eighteen months now in the mainframe, wildly successful, wildly successful, not just with the new Z but with the old Z14 and the reason is we would go in to the storage guys, and in the Z world money was tight, and we said what if we could help you protect against mal or ransomware or even internal threats we has dual access control capability from an internal management perspective they said "really?" And then the storage guys actually took that to the security team and said guess what we can help you and they said "oh my god." and they gave money actually to the storage guys, in other instances we approach the security side and in fact one of the things we've done is talked to a lot of our partners who have a security practice a storage practice and never thought about thinking of them in a holistic fashion, so from a partner perspective it gives a more holistic solution to the end user, they sell keep the bad guy out, track the bad guy down and by the way did you know that IBM's flash system will do data-at-rest encryption with no performance penalties so you can encrypt everything on that and there's no penalty, it's at line speed so if they're there for a week or two hundred days or whatever, that data is protected because it's encrypted. So that's more of a the partners work in a holistic security strategy. >> I mean IBM has a long heritage in security, RACF all you old mainframers, Resource Access Control Facility was the gold standard back in the day, and really you know set the road map for you know best practice. So obviously things have changed a lot, what is best practice today are you recommending customers set up air gaps? certainly tooling but more tooling is a challenge for people but how are you seeing customers combat the problem? >> So what we do is we look at if from a storage perspective so we have a couple things, A we have air gaping to tape and air gaping out to clouds, so our Spectrum Virtualize sits on-prem and off-prem we can do air gaping with our Spectrum scale product which are AI and big data again put it out, IBM can all put eventually a snap or a replica out to a cloud, gives you a logical air gap, tape will work with anything file, block and object, then you have a physical air gap, so that's one aspect, the other thing of course you had mentioned already is encrypting, you can encrypt file block and object data, in fact we can worm it, so make it immutable and then encrypt a worm, so and in fact with our object storage because of the way we do our hashing and the way we do our erasure encoding and the way we hide the key, is we basically make it almost non crackable. So file, block and object, what we do to prevent and then the air gaping and the last thing to do is incidents recovery, so they had an incident to go back to a known good copy, so the Safeguarded Copy we can basically mount instantaneously snaps or replicas, they would do a ring-fence network cause obviously they do it online with the real network they could crash it or compromise so you set up a ring-fence network and you keep bringing back the snaps or replicas and look it at right, have the app guys come in run an app and "oh no there's malware okay we can't use that snap" and it's very easy to do, we can automate the process they have to put the ring-fence around and they can go back to as many copies or replicas they have whether it be the file side block or object. So that would help in incident recovery after they know they've had an attack, they've cleaned it up, now you've got to make sure that your secondary data is good data before you restore it, otherwise you could put the malware, ransomware right back in to what you had. So the recovery side, protection side on-prem with encryption and then obviously with air gaping protection but if you will out of house either physical or out to cloud. >> Eric help us connect the dots between what your talking about and the audience here at Cisco Live, obviously networking people there's always a little bit of security inside there, so help us understand how these go together and the reception you get from them. >> Well again the reception is very good because what we do is, Cisco is looking at doing all the network security we're a partner of theirs again allows them or their channel partners to go in and say here's a holistic strategy, keep the bad guy out, okay here's what you do to track the bad guy down, by the way here's what you do on the network side with our Cisco gear, here's what you can do with the storage gear so, partner can go with a holistic strategy to the end user right and say here's what we will do for the network, here's what we'll do for the storage and of course it doesn't step on each other because you're looking at the network traffic, where looking of course at primary storage and secondary storage and actually hybrid multi cloud storage as ways for them to protect their data so it's completely in complimentary play, by the way the other things that IBM security division does both to keep the bad guy out and track the bad, are also none of these things step on each other, it allows you to have a truly holistic strategy cause right now network security is semi thought about, storage security is almost never though about. So it's like let me give you a whole strategy that's going to work bring the data back, help you understand it, keep the data from being stolen, immutable copies, if they're get there and they steal the data, encrypted data, so all kinds of strategies the networking guys just so it allows the end user or certainly the CIO to go to the CSO or to the chief legal officer and say I've got a holistic strategy yes I'm good, it's not an if question it's a when, so here's what I'm doing to reduce the incidents time, here's what I'm doing to keep the bad guy out which is not what we do in the storage division, here's what we do if they're in to keep the data safe so we know if it gets stolen it can't be used. And by the way once we clean up the malware and ransomware we need to get you up and going as soon as possible mister CEO or CFO now or the line of business guys, we can do that with without having the data being compromised or the data being bad data. >> It's interesting to hear tape as part of the equation, right it keeps coming back, but it is part of the best practice, so there's the air gap but tape kind of the last resort, you don't want to really recover from tape, but you know if you have tape in an offsite location, you know if it's a lot of data it's fast to move, because you're putting it on a truck, it may be an RPO issue, but are you seeing that certain industries, financial services in particular, maybe or certain companies are mandating that last resort? >> So what you're seeing with tape overall, is for IBM to renaissance, both inside the data centers, so from that perspective think enterprise accounts, the global fortune two thousand, and from that perspective it's partially about the air gaping, it's partially I've got gobs of data, what's the cheapest way to make sure I've got a backup copy, okay then we're also seeing a huge take up with hyperscalers and cloud providers. So we have several of the top ten cloud providers on the planet that when you buy their archive or cold store that actually goes onto IBM tape platters, so you have a cost angle which is independent of the cyber resiliency side, then you've got the cyber resiliency side, and for us when we're talking bigger accounts, so think enterprise up to that you know fortune two thousand they're probably going to do different things for different data sets, so certain things might be snapped out to the cloud, other data sets might go out to tape and their are regulated industries still, like healthcare, finance and obviously the government itself where sometimes tape is still like mandated and so even though it's legacy the bottom line is they need it and then once you get in there between the cost angle of what they can save and the fact that oh wait, I thought just back to well wait, what about malware and ransomware and by the way a smart company is going to use a hybrid combination, so they'll have some stuff going out to the cloud then they have on premises. Again our safeguard copy on the mainframe is actually can be on premise, so you've got five hundred immutable snaps that are encrypted and then you keep going back to your final one that didn't have the malware and ransomware, so it's probably a combination strategy even on the storage side which would include tape, what we could do for file block and object on flash we could even do it for if someones got older disk or you know want to use second or like IBM cloud object storage is mostly done on disk, well guess what now that older data is encrypted it's wormed, it's protected, by the way we can air gap IBM cloud objects storage out to the cloud too, so it may well be a very comprehensive strategy based on application workload use case value of the data set and obviously with things like tape and backup to the cloud you have a secondary use case, which is not just about the security but I need to back up the data in case there's a fire or me being the silicon valley guy need to go out to tape cause there might really be an earthquake and as great as IBM arrays are or any of our competitors arrays, cause we as you know with our software support all our competition, those arrays are going to be crushed when the building falls down in silicon valley, so you might need to have tape for cheap backup, so there's a lot of different angles that involve not just cyber resilient but the combination of cyber resiliency and really data reliability and data safety that are independent of the cyber attack worry and you can combine them cause of they way we put this together with our technologies. >> Yeah your talking about a comprehensive strategy, which is very important because this has become a board level topic and it's no longer I'm sure it still happens in many organizations "oh yeah check off item yeah we do that, we do backup to whatever cloud tape" check off, but in many organizations, if not most certainly publicly traded organizations, it's a board level conversation and they really do their homework, down to even the testing, although testing is a little tough right, it's time consuming and cumbersome, but definitely thinking through the board wants to know what happens if okay what about this what about that and they've experienced a lot of different permutations, so it's again not just a check off item anymore you can say oh yeah we comply it's really no we need something that actually works because we know we're going to get hacked. >> Well that's part of the reason Safeguarded Copy on the mainframe side has done so well, companies that are using mainframe it is the most mission critical workloads, the highest transaction workloads, so in the financial sector, in the government sector, in some of the big giant manufacturing or retailers, they're running mainframes and they have been for years and they're not stopping and so for them system uptime is an issue, security is an issue, so the Safeguarded Copy for us has really been really a grand slam home run product, to use a very US centric term, but maybe a sixer if you like cricket or it was a try if you like rugby, but for all those various sports it's been very successful because of what they use that mainframe for and how critical that data, so it's been very successful from that perspective. >> They're like oh, how about, you're obviously sharing a lot of knowledge specific to storage, I said before IBM's got a long heritage in security, how do you collaborate with the other you know security pros at IBM, how much of that sort of filters in to storage and back out? >> So what we do is we make sure that they're aware of what we do, they're looking at some new things, that I can't disclose, around security that would make places for people to go and practice if you will, and do some other things. We're going to be involved in that program which allows people to try things out if you will in a very secure way and someday IBM's going to do a cross storage will be part of its security and some of the other divisions but we haven't yet rolled it out, but it's something they're working on that we'll be part of. And then obviously there are many times in the big accounts where you know the security division are in there the storage guys are in there, but the account team knows that there's both issues and bring us together inside of a big account, so that happens as well more if you will from the sales side versus this official program that we're going to be launching shortly later this year. >> So wrap it up what's going on at Cisco Live? What are the conversations like with customers? What's IBM all about here? >> So for us our big thing has been about both our hybrid mutlicloud technology, which allows seamless move data back and forth, and we have a product called the Versastack, which incorporates our award winning Flashsystems, so we're positioned to either standalone or with the Versastack we have a Versastack in the booth. And then also obviously cyber resiliency, so I just presented yesterday on hybrid multicloud and then today I presented on cyber resiliency and how those things work together, and what we do as Cisco, so it's been a very good show and you know very successful for IBM here at Cisco Live. >> Good to hear, well you guys are great partners thanks for coming on theCUBE, love the shirt as always Eric Herzog IBM thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> All right your welcome, all right keep it right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest for Cisco Live Barcelona, Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman for John Furrier, we'll be right back. 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>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> And welcome back, here on theCUBE, along with Justin Warren, I'm John Walls and now we're joined by Peter Nichol, who's the CEO of Instaclustr. Peter, good to see you this morning sir. >> Thank you very much John. Nice to meet you. >> and Todd Greene, CEO of PubNub. >> Good to see ya. >> Good morning Todd. >> Good morning. >> First off, let's just talk about what the two of you guys do or specifically what Instaclustr does and PubNub. Peter, if you would. >> Basically at a high level, what Instaclustr does is, we help customers to build applications that have to scale massively in a reliable way. Massive scale means terabytes or petabytes of data or even more. Reliability means the application has got to be up and running all of the time. The way we do that is, we focus on technologies in the data layer and we allow companies to essentially outsource the management of those technologies to us. So they can focus on building their application, which is what they do best, and we focus on taking a lot of the complexity away, which is helping to manage the technologies in the data layer. And the technologies that we focus on are basically in the area of storage, search, messaging, and analytics. Those technologies are Cassandra, for storage, Kafka, for messaging, Spark, for analytics, and Elasticsearch for search. We can manage all of those technologies, in any of the cloud providers, including AWS, and essentially this allows customers to outsource that and focus on their core business. We've got some great customers, PubNub being one of our best customers, a hot startup in Silicon Valley, and we're really proud to have them here with us today. >> So Todd, >> Thanks Peter. >> if you will, give us the PubNub story. >> PubNub is a company that provides a global network, which is infrastructure for real-time applications. What's a real-time application? When we started the company six, seven years ago, we made this realization that, the world was moving from applications that sort of requested data when they needed to, you know, you pull up social information, you wanted to see where something was, you ask a question, to ones where things were constantly moving and changing. So devices were emitting data and consuming data all the time. Uber was launching and everyone wanted to see where their taxi was now. Chat applications were getting big inside, dating apps and B to B apps, and B to C apps, and on top of that IoT was exploding and people needed a way to control devices and turn lights on and off. And all the infrastructure that existed at the time, didn't really address these real-time use cases. So these companies were building that stuff themselves. So PubNub launched this thing we call a Data Stream Network, but it effectively does three things. It allows you to connect to devices and leave an always-on connection over the internet, to deliver data bidirectionally to those devices. Real-time message signaling in under a quarter of a second, and then control that data going back and forth, so being able to provide logic. That core infrastructure, that sort of connect, deliver, control, powers everything from Peloton exercise bikes to Symphony Investor chat applications, athenahealth doctor, patient, nurse, kinds of collaboration and lots of IoT companies, from Logitech Harmony to Samsung smart refrigerators. Across the board, it turns out, our infrastructure has been the key to making these real-time experiences come alive. >> So you had this moment, and startups usually do, they have, you hope you do, they reach a tipping point, right, of success And things work great and you hit a boiling point (laughs) in a way, a few years back, to where things were working almost too well, and that's how you got in to Instaclustr. Tell us, give me that story if you would, or share that with our folks watching. >> Yeah absolutely, you know, it's funny, I was talking to someone recently at Amazon, at AWS, who said we rarely talk to a company your size that actually is doing more traffic than AWS is and we discovered we were doing more than twice as many messages, these control signals we talked about, around our network, more than twice as many as the world's global SMS traffic. We were doing close to 50 billion of these messages per day. So as you can imagine, that's not a simple infrastructure. We store that data, we process it, we route it, we do all these things and in one of our storage layers, built on Cassandra, we were really struggling with the expertise needed to scale this thing at the size that we needed to scale it. And we hit a tipping point about two years ago, when we realized we really needed help and we needed help immediately. We had a lot of outreach to a lot of companies, including the company themselves that had created Cassandra. But once we stumbled on Instaclustr, it was like, you know, the clouds parting, right? All of the sudden we had folks from Instaclustr on with us 24 by 7, helping us migrate, helping us move to a more stable and scaled infrastructure and we've had this ongoing relationship ever since. We now have them managing a lot of different uses of Cassandra within PubNub. >> Yeah, so, infrastructure is, (stammers) sorry, Instaclustr is built on all these open-source technologies you mentioned, like Cassandra and Spark and Kafka, but what made you choose those technologies? What was it that was attractive about them that said, you know what, this is what we want to base our company on? >> Customers are always basically looking for three things, and I think Todd summed it up very well in his business, it's basically all about scalability. If your business is successful, you want to be able to scale massively as you get more and more customers. The second thing is reliability, which means the applications have got to be always on, always up and running. The third thing is performance, which is all about latency and speed and feed and all that type of thing. We chose Cassandra because it is one of the most popular, highly scalable data bases. It's used by Apple and Netflix and big companies that have got millions of customers. We generally pick technologies, based on those three criteria, but we also focus on open-source only, for two reasons. Number one, open-source doesn't involve expensive license fees, so customers don't get locked in with expensive license fees and number two, open-source provides a degree of flexibility, cloud independence, so if you don't want to be locked in to a specific cloud provider, and you want to keep your options in the future, choose open-source. >> Okay, that's a pretty compelling sort of argument there and certainly I think the world has discovered that open-source is totally a thing that we should all be using. I'm old enough to remember when open-source was verboten and you shouldn't be using it and now it just seems to be everywhere. What is it about Instaclustr that makes you special though, because open-source, anyone could use it. I could go and download it >> Yep, yep. >> for free tomorrow, so maybe I could attempt to steal PubNub's customers, steal your customers away. So clearly that's not going to be possible for me to be able to do tomorrow. What is it about Instaclustr that you've invested in this company that makes you so special, that means that PubNub was able to rely on you? >> Right, so I think the main thing is, we have 100% of our focus on operations, not on developing proprietary IP, which we sell, which is the typical software model, we take the open-source software and we actually manage it for our customers. Basically what that means is, if they want to use Cassandra, they go to our website, they go to the customer portal, they choose the cloud provider they want to use, they choose the technology they want to use, what regions do they want to run in, what size is their cluster? They press a button and everything else is done behind the scenes by us. We do the provisioning, we install the software, and from that point on, we're managing it 24 by 7. So instead of, for example, PubNub having to build their own team for each one of these technologies, they can outsource it to us, we can do it much cheaper and we can get them to market much faster, if we're doing our job right. It's all about the operations. We can do it much cheaper and faster and that's our main advantage. The other advantage is we manage all of these different technologies in the data layer, which means that customers have one vendor they can go to, to manage several different technologies. It's all heavily, highly, integrated from one vendor. That's a big, rather than having five different vendors to manage five different technologies, we provide the complete platform. >> So Todd, what does this mean for you, now that you have this partner that you can rely on and that you can trust? What does that change for the business? What has that enabled you to be able to do now that you can look forward to saying, you know what, we can do this to grow our business. >> Well that's a good question. Like Instaclustr, we operate PubNub. Customers pay us, not for our technology, but for our ability to operate our technology at massive scale. And we provide five nines SLA, which is a fancy way for saying, if we have an outage for more than 26 seconds in a month, we provide credits back to our customers. That's a really hard, high bar to fill. And so philosophically, we see ourselves as an operations company ourselves, right? And so we're very careful about who we would bring in to the fold as part of operations, right? And so it has to be an organization that has the same security levels that we do, SOC 2 Type II Compliance, has the same understandings and philosophy around operating things at high availability, and can do it in a way that we feel like, you know, in many ways is a part of our team and not some vendor that we don't know how to get on the phone. Not some vendor that we don't really trust, right? It has to feel like it's part of our company. So really it's only been Instaclustr that we've been able to develop that trust around. And so it is actually in all of us to sort of focus on areas where we can do more innovation while keeping the five nines SLAs at 26 seconds minimum, you know, maximum, of issues any month, but allow us to focus a lot more on innovation and not on the things that, frankly, Instaclustr, as far as we can tell, is best in the world at, which is really operating this infrastructure, the Cassandra piece. >> And what do you want to take on then? You told about innovation. If there's an area of your business, you say alright, this is where 2019, where I want it to take us, what would that be? >> It's a great question. One of the big changes for PubNub, was that we built our initial business on the backs of other startups and it was great. We got to some level of scale by powering a lot of innovative interesting applications that were themselves trying to be the first real-time this and the first real-time that and the first real-time the other thing. And then about two years ago something happened, a year and a half ago, that need for real-time, for having things update in real time, inventory, prices, chat applications, moving things on a map, seeing where your trucks were, that went mainstream, and now even the largest app companies in the world, if they release any kind of application, whether it's a business application or a consumer app, if it doesn't have that same real-time experience like an Uber or like a Snapchat, people kind of look at it and say, well this feels like it was built 20 years ago, right? And so what's happened to our industry, has been the moving of the need for this real-time experience, into the mainstream. Now that's been great for us, but it also means as we are selling to a larger and larger group of, we call mainstream larger enterprise customers, the way we package our product, the way we make it consumable by larger companies, make it easier to deploy our product, make it easier to understand and adding features that round that out, is really the core of our focus right now. Is really being able to appeal to those larger companies. We already have the scale, in fact, we recently participated in an event which was the Guinness Book of World (stammers) Record's largest online event in history. And we powered the source in India for Cricket, we powered the largest social interaction, over 10 million people synchronously going through our network, all in one virtual environment. So we know we can scale this thing beyond any existing human need and now it's really about making sure it's accessible to the world's largest companies. >> So it was cricket in India? >> Yes, yes. >> I would've thought it was the Justin Warren fan club, but I guess not, I (stammers) second online, right? >> Yeah, probably. >> There's a lot of people in India who love cricket, and they all have mobile phones. >> Yes, well gentlemen, thanks for being with us, Peter, Todd, continued success and then thanks for being here on theCUBE. >> Okay, thank you very much. >> Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure, thank you. >> We continue live coverage here from Las Vegas. We're in the Sands. We're here all week at AWS re-Invent. (calm digital music)

>> Live, from Las Vegas! It's theCube! Covering VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCube's live coverage in Las Vegas for VMworld 2018, it's theCube. We got two sets, 24 interviews per day, 94 interviews total. Next three days, we're in day two of three days coverage. It's our ninth year of covering VMworld. It's been great. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, next guest, Cube alumni, number one in the leading boards right now, Sanjay Poonen did a great job today on stage, keynote COO for VMware. Great to have you back. Thanks for coming on. >> John and Dave, you're always so kind to me, but I didn't realize you've been doing this nine years. >> This is our ninth year. >> That's half the life of VMware, awesome. Unreal. Congratulations. >> We know all the stories, all the hidden, nevermind, let's talk about your special day today. You had a really, so far, an amazing day, you were headlining the key note with a very special guest, and you did a great job. I want you to tell the story, who was on, what was the story about, how did this come about? Tech for good, a big theme in this conference has really been getting a lot of praise and a lot of great feedback. Take us through what happened today. >> Well listen, I think what we've been trying to do at VMware is really elevate our story and our vision. Elevate our partnerships, you've covered a lot of the narrative of what we've done with Andy Jessie. We felt this year, we usually have two 90 minute sessions, Day One, Day Two, and it's filled with content. We're technical company, product. We figured why don't we take 45 minutes out of the 180 minutes total and inspire people. With somebody who's had an impact on the world. And when we brainstormed, we had a lot of names suggested, I think there was a list of 10 or 15 and Malala stood out, she never spoke at a tech conference before. I loved her story, and we're all about education. The roots of VMware were at Stamford Campus. Diane Greene, and all of that story. You think about 130 million girls who don't go to school. We want to see more diversity in inclusion, and she'd never spoken so I was like, you know what, usually you go to these tech conferences and you've heard somebody who's spoken before. I'm like, lets invite her and see if she would come for the first time, and we didn't think she would. And we were able to score that, and I was still a little skeptical 'cause you never know is it going to work out or not. So thank you for saying it worked, I think we got a lot of good feedback. >> Well, in your first line, she was so endearing. You asked her what you thought a tech conference, you said too many acronyms. She just cracked the place up immediately. >> And then you heard my response, right? If somebody tells me like that, you tell VMotion wrong she looked at me what? >> Tell them about our story, real quick, our story I want to ask you a point in question. Her story, why her, and what motivated you to get her? >> Those stories, for any of you viewers, you should read the book "I'm Malala" but I'll give you the short version of the story. She was a nine year old in the Pashtun Area of the Swat Valley in Pakistan, and the Taliban setted a edict that girls could not go to school. Your rightful place was whatever, stay at home and become a mom with babies or whatever have you. You cannot go to school. And her father ran a school, Moster Yousafzai, wonderful man himself, an educator, a grandfather, and says know what, we're going to send you to school. Violating this order, and they gave a warning after warning and finally someone shot her in 2012, almost killed her. The bullet kind of came to her head, went down, and miraculously she escaped. Got on a sort of a hospital on a plane, was flown to London, and the world if you remember 2012, the world was following the story. She comes out of this and she's unscathed. She looks normal, she has a little bit of a thing on the right side of her face but her brains normal, everything's normal. Two years later she wins the Nobel Peace Prize. Has started the Malala Fund, and she is a force of nature, an amazing person. Tim Cook has been doing a lot with her in the Malala Fund. I think that actually caught my attention when Tim Cook was working with her, and you know whatever Apple does often gets a little bit of attention. >> Well great job selecting her. How's that relevant to what you guys are doing now, because you guys had a main theme Tech for Good? Why now, why VMware? A lot of people are looking at this, inspired by it. >> There are milestones in companies histories. We're at our 20 year birthday, and I'm sure at people's birthday they want to do big things, right? 20, 30, 40, 50, these decades are big ones and we thought, lets make this year a year to remember in various things we do. We had a 20 year anniversary celebration on campus, we invited Diane Greene back. It was a beautiful moment internally at Vmware during one of our employee meetings. It was a private moment, but just with her to thank her. And man, there were people emotional almost in tears saying thank you for starting this company. A way to give back to us, same way here. What better way to talk about the impact we're having in the community than have someone who is of this reputation. >> Well we're behind your mission 100%, anything you need. We loved the message, Tech for Good, people want to work for a mission driven company. People want to buy >> We hope so. >> from mission driven companies, that stated clear and the leadership you guys are providing is phenomenal. >> We had some rankings that came out around the same time. Fortune ranked companies who are changing the world, and VMware was ranked 17th overall, of all companies in the world and number one in the software category. So when you're trying to change the world, hopefully as you pointed out it's also an attractor of talent. You want to come here, and maybe even attractor of customers and partners. >> You know the other take-away was from the key note was how many Cricket fans there are in the VMworld Community. Of course we have a lot of folks from India, in our world but who's your favorite Cricketer? Was it Sachin Tendulkar? (laughs) >> Clearly you're reading off your notes Dave! >> Our Sonya's like our, >> Dead giveaway! >> Our Sonya's like our Cricket Geek and she's like, ask him about Sachin, no who's your favorite Cricketer, she wants to know. >> Sachin Tendulkar's way up there, Shayuda Free, the person she likes from Pakistan. I grew up playing cricket, listen I love all sports now that I'm here in this country I love football, I love basketball, I like baseball. So I'll watch all of them, but you know you kind of have those childhood memories. >> Sure >> And the childhood memories were like she talk about, India, Pakistan games. I mean this was like, L.A. Dodgers playing Giants or Red Socks, Yankee's, or Dallas Cowboys and the 49ers, or in Germany playing England or Brazil in the World Cup. Whatever your favorite country or team rivalry is, India Pakistan was all there more, but imagine like a billion people watching it. >> Yeah, well it was a nice touch on stage, and I'd say Ted Williams is my favorite cricketer, oh he plays baseball, he's a Red Sock's Player. Alright Sanjay, just cause your in the hot seat, lets get down to business here. Great moment on stage, congratulation. Okay Pat Gelsinger yesterday on the key note talked about the bridges, VMware bridging, connecting computers. One of the highlights is kind of in your wheelhouse, it's in your wheelhouse, the BYOD, Bring Your Own Device bridge. You're a big part of that. Making that work on on the mobile side. Now with Cloud this new bridge, how is that go forward because you still got to have all those table stakes, so with this new bridge of VMware's in this modern era, cloud and multicloud. Cluely validated, Andy Jassy, on stage. Doing something that Amazon's never done before, doing something on premise with VMware, is a huge deal. I mean we think it's a massive deal, we think it's super important, you guys are super committed to the relationship on premises hybrid cloud, multicloud, is validated as far as we're concerned. It's a done deal. Now ball's in your court, how are you going to bring all that mobile together, security, work space one, what's your plan? >> I would say that, listen on as I described in my story today there's two parts to the VMware story. There's a cloud foundation part which is the move the data center to the cloud in that bridge, and then there's the desk job move it to the mobile. Very briefly, yes three years of my five years were in that business, I'm deeply passionate about it. Much of my team now that I put in place there, Noah and Shankar are doing incredible jobs. We're very excited, and the opportunity's huge. I said at my key note of the seven billion people that live in the world, a billion I estimate, work for some company small or big and all of them have a phone. Likely many of those billion have a phone and a laptop, like you guys have here, right? That real estate of a billion in a half, maybe two billion devices, laptops and phones, maybe in some cases laptop, phone, and tablets. Someone's going to manage and secure, and their diverse across Apple, Google, big option for us. We're just getting started, and we're already the leader. In the data center, the cloud world, Pat, myself, Raghu, really as we sat three years ago felt like we shouldn't be a public cloud ourselves. We divested vCloud Air, as I've talked to you on your show before, Andy Jassy is a friend, dear friend and a classmate of mine from Harvard Business School. We began those discussions the three of us. Pat, Raghu, and myself with Andy and his team and as every quarter and year has gone on they become deeper and deep partnerships. Andy has told other companies that VMware Amazon is the model partnership Amazon has, as they describe who they would like to do business more with. So we're proud when they do that, when we see that happen. And we want to continue that. So when Amazon came to us and said listen I think there's an opportunity to take some of our stack and put it on premise. We kept that confidential cause we didn't want it to leak out to the world, and we said we're going to try'n annouce it at either VMworld or re:Invent. And we were successful. A part with these projects is they inevitably leak. We're really glad no press person sniffed it out. There was a lot of speculation. >> Couldn't get confirmation. >> There was a lot of speculation but no one sniffed it out and wrote a story about it, we were able to have that iPhone moment today, I'm sorry, yesterday when we unveiled it. And it's a big deal because RDS is a fast growing business for them. RDS landing on premise, they could try to do on their own but what better infrastructure to land it on than VMware. In some cases would be VMware running on VxRail which benefits Dell, our hardware partners. And we'll continue doing more, and more, and more as customers desire, so I'm excited about it. >> Andy doesn't do deals, as you know Andy well as we do. He's customer driven. Tell me about the customer demand on this because it's something we're trying to get reporting on. Obviously it makes sense, technically the way it's working. You guys and Andy, they just don't do deals out of the blue. There's customer drivers here, what are those drivers? >> Yeah, we're both listening to our customers and perhaps three, four, five years ago they were very focused on student body left, everybody goes public cloud. Like forget your on premise, evaporate, obliterate your data centers and just go completely public. That was their message. >> True, sweep the floor. >> Right, if you went to first re:Invent I was there on stage with them as an SAP employee, that's what I heard. I think you fast forward to 2014, 2015 they're beginning to realize, hey listen it's not as easy. Refactoring your apps, migrating those apps, what if we could bring the best of private cloud and public cloud together enter VMware and Amazon. He may have felt it was harder to have those cultivations of VMware or for all kinds of reasons, like we had vCloud Air and so on and so forth but once we divested that decision culminations had matured between us that door opened. And as that door opened, more culminations began. Jointly between us and with customers. We feel that there are customers who want many of those past type of services of premise. Cause you're building great things, relational database technology, AI, VI maybe. IoT type of technologies if they are landing on premise in an edge-computing kind of world, why not land on VMware because we're the king of the private cloud. We're very happy to those, we progress those discussion. I think in infrastructure software VMware and Amazon have some of the best engineers on the planet. Sometimes we've engineers who've gone between both companies. So we were able to put our engineering team's together. This is a joint engineering effort. Andy and us often talk about the fact that great innovation's built when it's not just Barny go to Marketing and Marketing press releases this. The true joint engineering at a deep level. That's what happened the last several months. >> Well I can tell you right now the commitment I've seen from an executive level and deep technology, both sides are deep and committed to this. It's go big or go home, at least from our perspective. Question I want to ask you Sanjay is you're close to the customer's of VMware. What's the growth strategy? If you zoom out, look down on stage and you got vSAN, NSX at the core, >> vSANjay (laughs) >> How can you not like a product that has my name on it? >> So you got all these things, where's the growth going to come from, the merging side, is the v going to be the stable crown jewels at NSX? How do you guys see the growth, where's it going to come from? >> Just kind of look at our last quarter. I mean if you peel back the narrative, John and Dave, two years ago we were growing single digits. Like low single digits. Two, three percent. That was, maybe the legacy loser description of VMware was the narrative everyone was talking about >> License revenue was flattish right? >> And then now all of sudden we're double digits. 12, 15 sort of in that range for both product revenue. It's harder to grow faster when you're bigger, and what's happened is that we stabilize compute with vSphere in that part and it's actually been growing a little bit because I think people in the VMware cloud provider part of our business, and the halo effect of the cloud meant that as they refresh the servers they were buying more research. That's good. The management business has started to grow again. Some cases double digits, but at least sort of single digits. NSX, the last few order grew like 30, 40%. vSAN last year was growing 100% off a smaller base, this year going 60, 70%. EUC has been growing double digits, taking a lot of share from company's like Citrix and MobileIron and others. And now, also still growing double digits at much bigger paces, and some of those businesses are well over a billion. Compute, management, end-user computing. We talked about NSX on our queue forming called being a 1.4 billion. So when you get businesses to scale, about a billion dollar type businesses and their sort of four, training five that are in that area, and they all get to grow faster than the market. That's the key, you got to get them going fast. That's how you get growth. So we focus on those on those top five businesses and then add a few more. Like VMware Cloud on AWS, right now our goal is customer logo count. Revenue will come but we talked on our earnings call about a few hundred customers of VMware Cloud and AWS. As that gets into the thousands, and there's absolutely that option, why? Because there's 500,000 customers of VMware and two million customers of Amazon, so there's got to be a lot of commonality between those two to get a few thousand. Then we'll start caring about revenue there too, but once you have logos, you have references. Containers, I'd like to see PKS have a few hundred customers and then, we put one on stage today. National Commercial Bank of Jamaica. Fantastic story of PKS. I even got my PKS socks for this interview. (John laughs) >> So that give you a sense as to how we think, there will be four, five that our businesses had scale and then a few are starting to get there, and they become business to scale. The nature of software is we'll always be doing this show because there will be new businesses to talk about. >> Yeah, hardware is easy. Software is hard, as Andy Patchenstien said on theCUBE yesterday. Congratulations Sanjay and all the success, you guys are doing great financially. Products looking really good coming out, the bloom is rising from the fruit you guys have harvested, coming together. >> John if I can say one last thing, I shared a picture of a plane today and I put two engines behind it. There's something I've learned over the last years about focus of a company, and I joked about different ways that my name's are pronounced but at the core of me there's a DNA. I said on stage I'd rather not be known as smart or stupid but having a big heart. VMware, I hope is known by our customers as having these two engines. An engine of innovation, innovating product and a variety of other things. And focused on customer obsession. We do those, the plane will go a long way. >> And it's looking good you guys, we can say we've been to Radio Event, we've been doing a lot of great stuff. Congratulations on the initiative, and a great interview with you today on doing Tech for Good and sharing your story. Getting more exposure to the kind of narratives people want to hear. More women in tech, more girls in tech, more democratization. Congratulations and thanks so much for sharing. >> Thank you John and Dave. >> Appreciate you being here. >> Sanjay Poonen, COO of VMware. Friend of theCUBE, Cube Alumni, overall great guy. Big heart and competitive too, we know that from his Twitter stream. Follow Sanjay on Twitter. You'll have a great time. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, stay with us for more coverage from day two live, here in Las Vegas for VMware 2018. Stay with us. (tech music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE! Covering women transforming technology. >> Hi, welcome to theCube. Lisa Martin on the ground at the 3rd Annual Women Transforming Technology event at VMware in Palo Alto, and I'm joined by an author and a senior VMware engineer, Pratima Rao Gluckman. Welcome to the Cube, Pratima. >> Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here >> It's great to have you here. So you have been an engineer here for about ten years. You knew from when you were a kid, love this, engineer, you knew you wanted to be that. You fell in love with your first programming class. It was like a Jerry McGuire, you complete me kind of moment I'm imagining. Tell me a little bit about your career in engineering and specifically as a female. >> Okay, so I was raised, born and raised, in India, and I grew up in an environment where I was gender blind. You know, my oldest sister played cricket for the country. >> Lisa: Wow! >> And it was a man's game! You know and a lot of people kind of talked about that, but it wasn't like she couldn't do it, right? So, I always grew up with this notion that I could do anything, and I could be whoever I wanted to be. And then I came to the United States, and that whole narrative stayed with me, the meritocracy narrative. Like you work hard, you know, society, the world will take care of you, and good things will happen, but it wasn't until 2016 was when I had this aha moment, and that's when I suddenly felt, suddenly I was aware of my gender, and I was like, okay I'm a female in tech, and there's lots of challenges for women in tech. And I didn't quite realize that. It was just that aha moment, and VMware has been a great company. I've been with VMware for nine years, I started as an engineer, and I moved into engineering management. We had Diane Greene who founded the company, the culture was always meritocratic, but I think something in 2016 kind of made me just thinking about my career and thinking about the careers of the women around me, I felt like we were stuck. But at the same time be focused on the women that were successful, for instance Yanbing Li, who's our senior VP and general manager of our storage business. And we were talking about her, and I said, this is what I said, I said, "There are some women who are successful despite everything "that we're dealing with, and I just want "to know their stories, and I'm going to write this book." The moment I said that it just felt right. I felt like this was something I wanted to do, and the stories in this book are inspiring stories of these women, just listening to Laila Ali this morning, her inspirational story, and this book has around 19 stories of these executive women, and they're just not role models, I mean every story offers strategies of how to thrive in the tech world. >> So interesting that first of all I love the title, Pratima, of this book, "Nevertheless She Persisted." So simple, so articulate, and so inspiring. So interesting, though, that you were working as an engineer for quite a few years before you realized, kind of looked around, like, whoa, this is a challenge that I'm actually living in. Yanbing is a CUBE alumni, I love her Twitter handle. So you said all right, I want to talk to some women who have been persistent and successful in their tech careers, as kind of the genesis of the book. Talk to us about, maybe, of those 19 interviews that range from, what, c-levels to VPs to directors. What are some of the stories that you found, what kind of blew your mind of, wow, I didn't know that you came from that kind of background? >> So when I started off I was very ambitious. I said I'd go interview CEO women, and I did a lot of research, and I found some very disturbing facts. You know, Fortune Magazine lists Fortune 500 companies, and they rank them based on their prior year's fiscal revenues, and from that data there were 24 women CEOs in 2014. That number dropped to 21 in 2015, and it dropped again in 2016, but it went up slightly in 2017 to 32 women, which is promising, but back in 2018 we're down to 24. So we have very very few women CEOs, and when I started off I said I'll talk to the CEO women, and I couldn't find any CEO women, my network, my friends' network, And so I dropped one level and I said let me go talk to SVPs and when I looked at VMware and VMware's network, Yanbing was one of them, so she's in the book, and then I reached out to contacts outside of my network. So I have some women from LinkedIn, I have Google, I have Facebook, I have some women from startups. So I have around four CEOs in the book, I've got, and what's great about this book is it's got a diverse set of women. Right? They have different titles; I've got directors, senior directors, VPs, Senior VPs, GMs, and CEOs. And some of them have PhDs, some of them have a Master's Degree, and some actually don't have formal training in computer science. I thought this would be interesting because a woman with any background can relate to it. Right? And so that was helpful. And so that's kind of how I went off and I started to write this book. And when I interviewed these women, there was a common theme that just kept emerging, and that was persistence. And they persisted against gender bias, stereotype threat, just the negative messages from media and society. I mean like Laila Ali was talking about just even the messages she got from her dad. >> Right. >> Right? Someone who was so close to her who basically said "Women can't box." And that didn't stop her; I mean she persisted. When I was listening to her, she didn't use the word, but, you know, she said she was believing in herself and all that, but she persisted through all those negative messages, right? And she said no one can tell her what to do. (laughs) >> Yeah her confidence is very loud and clear, and I think that you do find women, and I imagine some of them are some of the interviewees in your book, who have that natural confidence, and as you were saying when Muhammad Ali was trying to talk her out of it, and trying to, as she said, "He tried to get me think it was my idea," but she just knew, well no, this is what I want to do. And she had that confidence. Did you find that a lot of the women leaders in this book had that natural confidence? Like you grew up in an environment where you just believed "I can do this, my sister's playing cricket." Did you find that was a common thread, or did you find some great examples of women who wanted to do something, but just thought "Can I do this?" And "How do I do that?" What was the kind of confidence level that you saw? >> I was surprised because I had a question on imposter syndrome, and I asked these women, Telle Whiteney, who's the CEO, she was the CEO, ex-CEO >> Lisa: Grace Hopper >> Yes. The founder of Grace Hopper. I asked her about imposter syndrome and this is what she told me, she said "I feel like I'm not good enough" and that actually gave me goosebumps. I remember I was sitting in front of greatness and this is what she was telling me. And then I asked her "How do you overcome it?" and she said "I just show up the next day." And that actually helped me with this book because I am not an author. >> That's persistence. >> I mean I am an author now but 2 years ago when I started to write this, writing is not my forte. I'm a technologist, I build teams, I manage teams, I ship products, I ship technical products, but everyday I woke up and I said, "I'm feeling like an imposter." It was just her voice right? Yanbing also feels the same way, I mean she does feel times where she feels like, "I'm lacking confidence here." Majority of the people actually, pretty much all the women, this one woman, Patty Hatter, didn't feel like she had imposter syndrome but the rest of them face it everyday. Talia Malachi who's a principal engineer at VMWare, it's very hard to be a PE, she said that she fights it every day, and that was surprising to me, right? Because I was sitting in front of all these women, they were confident, they've achieved so much, but they struggle with that every day. But all they do is they persist, they show up the next day. They take those little steps and they have these goals and they're very intentional and purposeful, I mean just like what Layla said, right? She said, "Everything that I've done in the last 20 years "has been intentional and purposeful." And that's what these women did. And I learned so much from them because 20 years ago I was a drifter (laughs) you know I just kind drifted and I didn't realize that I could set a goal and I could reach it and I could do all these amazing things, and I didn't think any of this was possible for me. But I'm hoping that some girl somewhere can read this book and say "You know what this is possible", right? This is possible and you know role models, I think we need lots of these role models. >> We do I think, you know imposter syndrome I've suffered for it for so long before I even knew what it was and I'll be honest with you even finding out that it was a legitimate issue was (exhales) okay I'm not the only one. So I think it's important that you, that these women and youth are your voice, in your book, identified it. This is something I face everyday even though you may look at me on the outside and think, "She's so successful, she's got everything." And we're human. And Laila Ali talked about of having to revisit that inner lawyer, that sometimes she goes silent, sometimes the pilot light goes out and needs to be reignited or turned back up. I think that is just giving people permission, especially women, and I've felt that in the keynote, giving us permission to go, "Ah, you're not going to feel that everyday, "you're not going to feel it everyday." Get up the next day to your point, keep persisting and pursuing your purpose is in and of itself so incredibly empowering. >> Right but also imposter syndrome is good for you and I talk about that a little bit in the book. And you know why it's good for you? It's you getting out of your comfort zone, you're trying something different, and it's natural to feel that way, but once you get over it, you've mastered that, and Laila talked about it too today she said, "You get uncomfortable to the point "where you get comfortable." >> Lisa: Yes. >> So every time that you find that you have this imposter syndrome, just remember that greatness is right around the corner. >> Yep. I always say "Get uncomfortably uncomfortable". >> Pratima: Yes. >> And I loved how she said that today. So one of the big news of the day is VMWare with Stanford announcing that they are investing $15,000,000 in a new Women's Leadership Innovation Lab at Stanford. Phenomenal. >> Pratima: Yes. >> And they're really going to start studying diversity and there's so many different gaps that we face, wage gap, age gap, gender gap, you know mothers vs motherless gap, and one of the things that was really interesting that, I've heard this before, that the press release actually cited a McKinsey report that says, "Companies with diversity "on their executive staff are 21% more profitable." >> Yes. >> And that just seems like a, no duh, Kind of thing to me for organizations like VMWare and your other partners in this consortium of Wt Squared to get on board to say, "Well of course." Thought diversity is so important and it actually is demonstrated to impact a companies' profitability. >> Right, yeah. And that's true, I just hope that more people listen to it and internalize it, and organizations internalize that, and what VMWare's doing is fantastic. I mean I'm so proud to be part of this company that's doing this. And you Shelly talked about change right? She said, "I think, right now the way I feel "about this whole thing, is we need to stop talking about "diversity and inclusion, we just need to say "enough is enough, this is important, let's just do it." >> Lisa: We should make this a part of our DNA. >> Exactly. Just make it, why do we have to fight for all this, right? It's just pointless and you know, men have wives and daughters and mothers and you know, It impacts societies as a whole and organizations, and we have so much research on this and what I like about what the Stanford Research Lab is doing is, they're actually working with woman all the way from middle-school to high-school to the executive suite, and that's amazing because research has now shown, there was a report in March 2014 by a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, for Judith Warner, and so she documented, just with the rate of change, like I talked with all the percentages and the number of women CEOs, just with that rate of change, the equality of men and women at the top will not occur until 2085. >> Lisa: Oh my goodness. >> That's 63 years from now. That means all our daughters would be retired by then. My daughters was born on 2013 and so she won't live in a world of female leaders that's representative of the population. And so that realization actually really, really, really broke my heart and that made me want to write this book, to create these role models. And what Stanford is doing, is they're going to work on this and I'm hoping that they can make that transition sooner. Like we don't have to wait 'till 2085. I want this for my daughter. >> It has to be accelerated, yes. >> It has to be accelerated and I think all of us need to do that, our daughters should be in the 20s, 30s when this happens, not when they're in their 70s. >> Lisa: And retired. >> And retired, I mean we don't want that. And we don't know how that number's going to get pushed further, right? Like if we don't do anything now... It. (exhales) >> Lisa: Right. 2085 becomes, what? >> I know! It's insane. >> In the spirit of being persistent, with the theme of this 3rd annual Wt Squared being Inclusion in Action, you're a manager and in a people or hiring role, tell me about the culture on your team and how your awareness and your passion for creating change here, lasting change. How are you actually creating that inclusion through action in your role at VMWare? >> So what I do is when I have to hire engineers on my team, I talk to my recruiter, have a conversation, I'm like, "I need more diversity." It's just not women, I want diversity with the men too. I want different races, different cultures because I believe that if I have a diverse team I'm going to be successful. So it's almost like I'm being selfish but that is very important. So I have that conversation with my recruiters, so I kind have an expectation set. And then we go through their hiring process and I'm very aware of just the hiring panel, like who I put on the panel, I make sure to have at least a women on the panel and have some diversity. My team right now is not really that diverse and I'm working hard to make that because it is hard, you know the pipeline has to get built at a certain point, and then start getting those resumes, but I try to have at least one female on the panel, and during the selection process the first thing I'll tell them is, let's get the elephant out of the room, age, gender, whatever, like let's take that out, let's just talk about skills and how well this person has done in an interview. And that's how I conducted and you know I've had fairly good success of hiring women on the team. But I've also seen that it's hard to retain women because they tend to drop-out faster than the men and so it's constant, it's just constant work to make that happen. >> Yeah. I wish we had more time to talk about retention because it is a huge issue. So the book is Nevertheless, She Persisted. Where can people get a copy of the book? >> So you can get it on Amazon, that's, I think, the best place to get it. You can also get it from my publisher's site which is FriesenPress. >> Excellent well Pratima thank you so much for stopping by. >> Thank you. >> And sharing your passion, how your persisting, and how you're also helping more of us learn how to find that voice and pursue our passions, thank you. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching. We are TheCUBE on the ground at VMWare for the Third Annual Women Transforming Technology Event. I'm Lisa Martin thanks for watching. (upbeat music)