>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) (logo background tingles) >> Hey everyone, it's so good to see you, welcome back to theCube's day two coverage of MWC 23. We are live in Barcelona, Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson, Dave we have had no signage of people dropping out, this conference is absolutely jam packed. There's so much interest in the industry, you've had a lot of interviews this morning, before we introduce our guests and have a great conversation about the industry and challenges and how they're being solved, what are some of the things that stuck out to you in conversations today? >> Well, I think the interesting, kind of umbrella conversation, that seems to be overlapping you know, overlying everything is this question about Open RAN and open standards in radio access network technology and where the operators of networks and the providers of technology come together to chart a better path forward. A lot of discussion of private 5G networks, it's very interesting, I think I've said this a few times, from a consumer's perspective, we feel like 5G has been with us for a long time- >> We do. >> But it's very clear that this, that we're really at the beginning of stages of this and I'm super excited for our guests that we have here because we're going to be able to talk to an actual operator- >> Yes. >> And hear what they have to say, we've heard a lot of people talking about the cool stuff they build, but we're going to get to hear from someone who actually works with this stuff, so- >> Who actually built it, absolutely. Please welcome our two guests, we have Ihab Tarazi CTO and SVP at Dell Technologies, and Juan Carlos Garcia SVP Technology Innovation and Ecosystems at Telephonica, it's great to have you guys on the program. >> So, thank you very much. >> So the buzz around this conference is incredible, 80,000 plus people, 2000 exhibitors, it's standing room only. Lot of opportunity in the industry, a lot of challenges though, Juan Carlos we'd love to get your perspective on, what are some of the industry challenges that Telephonica has faced that your peers are probably facing as well? >> Well we have two kinds of challenges, one is a business challenge, I would say that we may find in other industries, like profitability and growth and I will talk about it. And the second challenge is our technology challenge, we need the network to be ready to embrace a new wave of technologies and applications that are, you know, very demanding in terms of network characteristics and features. On the efficiency and profitability and growth, the solution comes as a challenge from changing the way networks are built and operated, from the traditional way to make them become software platforms. And this is not just at the knowledge challenge, it's also changing the mindset of network operators from a network and service provider to a digital service provider, okay? And this means several things, your network needs to become software-based so that you can manage it digitally and on top of it, you need to be able to deliver detail services digitally, okay? So there are three aspects, making your network so (indistinct) and cloud and cloud waste and then be able to sell in a different way to our customers. >> So some pretty significant challenges, but to your point, Juan Carlos, you share some of those challenges with other industries so there's some commonality there. I wanted to bring Ihab into the conversation, from Dell's perspective, we're seeing, you know, the explosion of data. Every company has to be a data company, we expect to have access to data in real time, if it's a new app, whatever it is. What are some of the challenges that you're seeing from your seat at Dell? >> Yeah, I think Juan Carlos explained that really well, what all the operators are talking about here between new applications, think metaverse, think video streaming, going all the way to the edge, think all the automation of factories and everything that's happening. It's not only requiring a whole new model for delivery and for building networks, but it's throwing out enormous amount of data and the data needs to be acted on to get the value of it. So the challenge is how do I collect the data? How do I catalog it? How do I make it usable? And then how do I make it persistent? So you know, it's high performance data storage and then after that, how do I move it to where I want to and be able to use it. And for many applications that has to happen in milliseconds for the value to come out. So now we've seen this before with enterprise but now I would say this digital transformation is happening at very large scale for all the telcos and starting to deal with very familiar themes we've seen before. >> So Juan Carlos, Telephonica, you hear from partners, vendors that they've done this before, don't worry, you're in good hands. >> Juan Carlos: Yeah, yeah. >> But as a practical matter, when you look at the challenges that you have and you think about the things you'll do to address them as you move forward, what are the immediate short term priorities? >> Okay. >> Versus the longer term priorities? What's realistic? You have a network to operate- >> Yeah. >> You're not just building something out of nothing, so you have to keep the lights on. >> Yeah. >> And you have to innovate, we call that by the way, in the CTO trade, ambidextrous, management using both hands, so what's your order of priorities? >> Well, the first thing, new technologies you are getting into the network need to come with a detail shape, so being cloud native, working by software. On the legacies that you need to keep alive, you need to go for a program to switch (indistinct) off progressively, okay? In fact, in Spain we are going to switch up the copper network in two years, so in 2024, Telephonica will celebrate 100 years and the celebration will be switching up the copper network and we'll have on the fixed access only fiber, okay. So more than likely, the network is necessary, all this digitalization may happen only on the new technologies because the new technologies are cloud-based, cloud native, become already ready for this digitalization process. And not only that, so you need also to build new things, we need an abstraction layer on top of the physical infrastructure to be able to manage the network by software, okay. This is something that happened in the computing world, okay, where the servers, you know, were covered with a cloud stack layer and we are doing the same thing in the network. We are trained to abstract the network services and capabilities and be able to offer them digitally to our customers. And this is a process that we are ongoing with many initiatives in the market, so one was the CAMARA community that was opened in Linux Foundation and the other one was the announcement we made yesterday of the open gateway initiative here at Mobile World Congress where all telecom operators have agreed to launch in this year a set of service APIs that are common worldwide, okay. This is a similar thing to what we did with 2G 35 years ago, to agree on a standard way of delivering a service and in this case is digital services based on APIs. >> What's the net result of? What are the benefits of having those open standards? Is it a benefit that myself as a consumer would enjoy? It seems, I mean, I've been, I'm old enough to remember, you know, a time before cellular telephones and I remember a time when it was very, very difficult to travel from North America to Europe with a cell phone. Now I land and my provider says, "Hey, welcome-" >> Juan Carlos: Yes. >> "Welcome, we're going to charge you a little extra money." And I say, "Hallelujah, awesome." So is part of that interoperability a benefit to consumers or, how, what? >> Yeah, you touch the right point. So in the same way you travel anywhere and you want to still make a call and send an SMS and connect to the internet, you will like your applications in your smartphone to work being them edge applications, okay, and these applications, each application will have to work to be executed very close to where you are, in a way that if you travel abroad the visitor network is serving you, okay. So this means that we are somehow extending the current interconnection and roaming agreements between operators to be able also to deliver edge applications wherever you are, in whatever network, with whatever technology. >> We have that expectation on the consumer side, that it's just going to work no matter where we are, we want apps to be updated, whether I'm banking or I'm shopping for groceries, I want to make sure that they know who I am, the data's got to be there, it's got to be real time, it's got to be right, it's got to serve me personally, but it just has to work. You guys talked about some of the big challenges, but also the opportunities in terms of the future of networking, the data turning companies in the data companies. Walk us through the future of networking from Telephonica's lens, you talked about some of the big initiatives that you have by 2024. >> Yes. >> But if you had a crystal ball and you could look in there and go it looks like this for operators, what would you say? And I'd love to get your feedback too. >> Yeah, I liked how Juan Carlos talked about how the future is, I think I want to add one thing to it, to say, a lot of times the user is no longer a consumer, it's an automated thing, you know, AI think robots, so a lot of times, more and more the usage is happening by some autonomous thing and it needs to always connect. And more and more these things are extending to places where even cellular coverage doesn't exist today, so you have edge compute show up. So, and when you think about it, the things we have to solve as a community here and this is all the discussions is, number one, how you make it a fully open standard model, so everything plugs and play, more and more, there's so many pieces coming, software, hardware, from different components and the integration of all of that is probably one of the biggest challenges people want solved. You know, how it's no longer one box, you buy from one person and put it away, now you have a complex combination of hardware and software. Also the operational model is very important and that is one of the areas we're focused on at Dell, is that while the operational model works inside the data centers for certain application, for telcos, it looks different when you're out at the cell tower and you're going to have these extended temperature changes. And sometimes this may not be inside a cabinet, maybe outside and the person servicing it is not an IT technician. This is somebody that needs to know exactly how to plug it, to be able to place equipment quickly and add capacity, those are just two of the areas, the cloud, making it work like a cloud, where it's intuitive, automated and you can easily add capacity, you can, you know, get a lot of monitoring, a lot of metrics, those are some of the things that we're all solving in this community. >> Let's talk about exactly how you're achieving this, Telephonica and Dell have been working together for a couple of years, you said before we went live. Talk about, you're doing this, you talked about the challenges, the opportunities how are you solving them and why with Dell? >> Okay, well you need to go with the right partners, not to this kind of process of transforming your network into a digital platform. There are big challenges on creating the cloud infrastructure that you need to support the complex, functionality and network requires. And I think you need to have with you, companies that know about the processors, that know about the hardware, the server, that know about how to make an abstraction of that hardware layer so that you can manage that digitally and this is not something any company can do, so you need companies that are very specialized. Telecom operators are changing the way to work, we work in the past with traditionally, with network equipment vendors, now we need to start working with technology providers, hardware (indistinct) providers with cloud providers with an ecosystem that is probably wider than what we had in the past. >> Yes. >> So I come from a background, I call myself a "knuckle dragging hardware engineer" sort of guy, so I'm almost fascinated by the physical part of this. You have a network, part of that network includes towers that have transmitters, receivers, at the base of those towers and like you mentioned, they're not all necessarily in urban areas or easy to access. There's equipment there, let's say that, that tower has been there for 5 years, 10 years, in the traditional world of IT, we have this this concept of the "refresh cycle" >> Juan Carlos: Yeah. >> Where a server may have a useful life of 36 months before it's consuming more power than it should based on the technology. How do you move from, kind of a legacy more proprietary, all-inclusive stack to an open system? I mean, is this a, "Okay, we're planning for an outage for the tower and you're wheeling out old equipment and wheeling in new equipment?" >> Juan Carlos: Yeah. >> I mean that's not, that's what we say as a non-trivial exercise, it's something that isn't, it's not something that's just easy to do, but is that what progress looks like? Sort of, methodically one site at a time? >> Yeah, well, I mean, you have touched an important point. In the technology renewal cycles, we were taking an appliance and replacing that by another one. Now with the current technology, you have the couple, the hardware from the software and the hardware, you need to replace it only when you run out of processing capacity to do what you want, okay? So then we'll be there 2, 3, 4, 5 years, whatever, when you need additional capacity, you replace it, but on the software side you can make the replacement every hour, every week. And this is something that the new technologies are bringing, a flexibility for the telecom operator to introduce a new feature without having to be physically there in the place, okay, by software remotely and this is the kind of software network we want to build. >> Lisa Martin: You know- >> Yeah, I want to add to that if I can- >> Please. >> Yeah. >> I think this is one of the biggest benefits of the open model. If the stack is all integrated as one appliance, when a new technology, we all know how quickly selecon technology comes out and now we have GPU's coming out for AI more increasingly, in an appliance model it may take you two years to take advantage of some new selecon that just came out. In this new open model, as Juan Carlos was saying, you just swap out, you know, you have time to market CPUs launched, it can be put out there at the cell tower and it could double capacity instantly and we're going to need that in that world, that easily going to be AI enabled- >> Lisa Martin: Right. >> So- >> So my last question to you, we only got a minute left or so, is given everything that we've talked about, the challenges, the opportunities, what you're doing together, how would you Juan Carlos summarize how the business is benefiting from the Dell partnership and the technologies that you're enabling with this new future network? >> Well, as I said before, we will need to be able to cover all the characteristics and performance of our network. We will need the right kind of processing capacity, the right kind of hardware solutions. We know that the functionality of the network is a very demanding one, we need hardware acceleration, we need a synchronization, we need time-sensitive solutions and all these can only done by hardware, so you need a good hardware partner, that ensures that you have the processing capacity you need to be able then to run your software, you know, with the confidence that it will work and with the performance that you need. >> That confidence is key. Well it sounds like what Telephonica and Dell have achieved together has been quite successful. Congratulations on the first couple of years, sounds like it's really helping Telephonica's business move in the strategic direction that it wants. We appreciate you joining us on the program today, describing all this, thank you both so much for your time. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you, this was fun. >> A pleasure. >> Good, our pleasure. For our guests and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live day two from Barcelona, MWC 23. Don't go anywhere, Dave and I will be right back with our next guests. (cheerful bouncy music)

>> From "theCUBE" studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from "theCUBE" and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> There are very few political issues that get bipartisan support these days, nevermind consensus spanning geopolitical boundaries. But whether we're talking across the aisle or over the pond, there seems to be common agreement that the power of big tech firms should be regulated. But the government's track record when it comes to antitrust aimed at big tech is actually really mixed, mixed at best. History has shown that market forces rather than public policy have been much more effective at curbing monopoly power in the technology industry. Hello, and welcome to this week's "Wikibon CUBE" insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in frequent "CUBE" contributor Dave Moschella, author and senior fellow at the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation. Dave, welcome, good to see you again. >> Hey, thanks Dave, good to be here. >> So you just recently published an article, we're going to bring it up here and I'll read the title, "Theory Aside, Antitrust Advocates Should Keep Their "Big Tech" Ambitions Narrow". And in this post you argue that big sweeping changes like breaking apart companies to moderate monopoly power in the tech industry have been ineffective compared to market forces, but you're not saying government shouldn't be involved rather you're suggesting that more targeted measures combined with market forces are the right answer. Can you maybe explain a little bit more the premise behind your research and some of your conclusions? >> Sure, and first let's go back to that title, when I said, theory aside, that is referring to a huge debate that's going on in global antitrust circles these days about whether antitrust should follow the traditional path of being invoked when there's real harm, demonstrable harm to consumers or a new theory that says that any sort of vast monopoly power inevitably will be bad for competition and consumers at some point, so your best to intervene now to avoid harms later. And that school, which was a very minor part of the antitrust world for many, many years is now quite ascendant and the debate goes on doesn't matter which side of that you're on the questions sort of there well, all right, well, if you're going to do something to take on big tech and clearly many politicians, regulators are sort of issuing to do something, what would you actually do? And what are the odds that that'll do more good than harm? And that was really the origins of the piece and trying to take a historical view of that. >> Yeah, I learned a new word, thank you. Neo-brandzian had to look it up, but basically you're saying that traditionally it was proving consumer harm versus being proactive about the possibility or likelihood of consumer harm. >> Correct, and that's a really big shift that a lot of traditional antitrust people strongly object to, but is now sort of the trendy and more send and view. >> Got it, okay, let's look a little deeper into the history of tech monopolies and government action and see what we can learn from that. We put together this slide that we can reference. It shows the three historical targets in the tech business and now the new ones. In 1969, the DOJ went after IBM, Big Blue and it's 13 years later, dropped its suit. And then in 1984 the government broke Ma Bell apart and in the late 1990s, went after Microsoft, I think it was 1998 in the Wintel monopoly. And recently in an interview with tech journalist, Kara Swisher, the FTC chair Lena Khan claimed that the government played a major role in moderating the power of tech giants historically. And I think she even specifically referenced Microsoft or maybe Kara did and basically said the industry and consumers from the dominance of companies like Microsoft. So Dave, let's briefly talk about and Kara by the way, didn't really challenge that, she kind of let it slide. But let's talk about each of these and test this concept a bit. Were the government actions in these instances necessary? What were the outcomes and the consequences? Maybe you could start with IBM and AT&T. >> Yeah, it's a big topic and there's a lot there and a lot of history, but I might just sort of introduce by saying for whatever reasons antitrust has been part of the entire information technology industry history from mainframe to the current period and that slide sort of gives you that. And the reasons for that are I think once that we sort of know the economies of scale, network effects, lock in safe choices, lot of things that explain it, but the good bit about that is we actually have so much history of this and we can at least see what's happened in the past and when you look at IBM and AT&T they both were massive antitrust cases. The one against IBM was dropped and it was dropped in as you say, in 1980. Well, what was going on in at that time, IBM was sort of considered invincible and unbeatable, but it was 1981 that the personal computer came around and within just a couple of years the world could see that the computing paradigm had change from main frames and minis to PCs lines client server and what have you. So IBM in just a couple of years went from being unbeatable, you can't compete with them, we have to break up with them to being incredibly vulnerable and in trouble and never fully recovered and is sort of a shell of what it once was. And so the market took care of that and no action was really necessary just by everybody thinking there was. The case of AT&T, they did act and they broke up the company and I would say, first question is, was that necessary? Well, lots of countries didn't do that and the reality is 1980 breaking it up into long distance and regional may have made some sense, but by the 1990 it was pretty clear that the telecom world was going to change dramatically from long distance and fixed wires services to internet services, data services, wireless services and all of these things that we're going to restructure the industry anyways. But AT& T one to me is very interesting because of the unintended consequences. And I would say that the main unintended consequence of that was America's competitiveness in telecommunications took a huge hit. And today, to this day telecommunications is dominated by European, Chinese and other firms. And the big American sort of players of the time AT&T which Western Electric became Lucent, Lucent is now owned by Nokia and is really out of it completely and most notably and compellingly Bell Labs, the Bell Labs once the world's most prominent research institution now also a shell of itself and as it was part of Lucent is also now owned by the Finnish company Nokia. So that restructuring greatly damaged America's core strength in telecommunications hardware and research and one can argue we've never recovered right through this 5IG today. So it's a very good example of the market taking care of, the big problem, but meddling leading to some unintended consequences that have hurt the American competitiveness and as we'll talk about, probably later, you can see some of that going on again today and in the past with Microsoft and Intel. >> Right, yeah, Bell Labs was an American gem, kind of like Xerox PARC and basically gone now. You mentioned Intel and Microsoft, Microsoft and Intel. As many people know, some young people don't, IBM unwillingly handed its monopoly to Intel and Microsoft by outsourcing the micro processor and operating system, respectively. Those two companies ended up with IBM ironically, agreeing to take OS2 which was its proprietary operating system and giving Intel, Microsoft Windows not realizing that its ability to dominate a new disruptive market like PCs and operating systems had been vaporized to your earlier point by the new Wintel ecosystem. Now Dave, the government wanted to break Microsoft apart and split its OS business from its application software, in the case of Intel, Intel only had one business. You pointed out microprocessors so it couldn't bust it up, but take us through the history here and the consequences of each. >> Well, the Microsoft one is sort of a classic because the antitrust case which was raging in the sort of mid nineties and 1998 when it finally ended, those were the very, once again, everybody said, Bill Gates was unstoppable, no one could compete with Microsoft they'd buy them, destroy them, predatory pricing, whatever they were accusing of the attacks on Netscape all these sort of things. But those the very years where it was becoming clear first that Microsoft basically missed the early big years of the internet and then again, later missed all the early years of the mobile phone business going back to BlackBerrys and pilots and all those sorts of things. So here we are the government making the case that this company is unstoppable and you can't compete with them the very moment they're entirely on the defensive. And therefore wasn't surprising that that suit eventually was dropped with some minor concessions about Microsoft making it a little bit easier for third parties to work with them and treating people a little bit more, even handling perfectly good things that they did. But again, the more market took care of the problem far more than the antitrust activities did. The Intel one is also interesting cause it's sort of like the AT& T one. On the one hand antitrust actions made Intel much more likely and in fact, required to work with AMD enough to keep that company in business and having AMD lowered prices for consumers certainly probably sped up innovation in the personal computer business and appeared to have a lot of benefits for those early years. But when you look at it from a longer point of view and particularly when look at it again from a global point of view you see that, wow, they not so clear because that very presence of AMD meant that there's a lot more pressure on Intel in terms of its pricing, its profitability, its flexibility and its volumes. All the things that have made it harder for them to A, compete with chips made in Taiwan, let alone build them in the United States and therefore that long term effect of essentially requiring Intel to allow AMD to exist has undermined Intel's position globally and arguably has undermined America's position in the long run. And certainly Intel today is far more vulnerable to an ARM and Invidia to other specialized chips to China, to Taiwan all of these things are going on out there, they're less capable of resisting that than they would've been otherwise. So, you thought we had some real benefits with AMD and lower prices for consumers, but the long term unintended consequences are arguably pretty bad. >> Yeah, that's why we recently wrote in Intel two "Strategic To Fail", we'll see, Okay. now we come to 2022 and there are five companies with anti-trust targets on their backs. Although Microsoft seems to be the least susceptible to US government ironically intervention at this this point, but maybe not and we show "The Cincos Comas Club" in a homage to Russ Hanneman of the show "Silicon Valley" Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon all with trillion dollar plus valuations. But meta briefly crossed that threshold like Mr. Hanneman lost a comma and is now well under that market cap probably around five or 600 million, sorry, billion. But under serious fire nonetheless Dave, people often don't realize the immense monopoly power that IBM had which relatively speaking when measured its percent of industry revenue or profit dwarf that of any company in tech ever, but the industry is much smaller then, no internet, no cloud. Does it call for a different approach this time around? How should we think about these five companies their market power, the implications of government action and maybe what you suggested more narrow action versus broad sweeping changes. >> Yeah, and there's a lot there. I mean, if you go back to the old days IBM had what, 70% of the computer business globally and AT&T had 90% or so of the American telecom market. So market shares that today's players can only dream of. Intel and Microsoft had 90% of the personal computer market. And then you look at today the big five and as wealthy and as incredibly successful as they've been, you sort of have almost the argument that's wrong on the face of it. How can five companies all of which compete with each other to at least some degree, how can they all be monopolies? And the reality is they're not monopolies, they're all oligopolies that are very powerful firms, but none of them have an outright monopoly on anything. There are competitors in all the spaces that they're in and increasing and probably increasingly so. And so, yeah, I think people conflate the extraordinary success of the companies with this belief that therefore they are monopolist and I think they're far less so than those in the past. >> Great, all right, I want to do a quick drill down to cloud computing, it's a key component of digital business infrastructure in his book, "Seeing Digital", Dave Moschella coined a term the matrix or the key which is really referred to the key technology platforms on which people are going to build digital businesses. Dave, we joke you should have called it the metaverse you were way ahead of your time. But I want to look at this ETR chart, we show spending momentum or net score on the vertical access market share or pervasiveness in the dataset on the horizontal axis. We show this view a lot, we put a dotted line at the 40% mark which indicates highly elevated spending. And you can sort of see Microsoft in the upper right, it's so far up to the right it's hidden behind the January 22 and AWS is right there. Those two dominate the cloud far ahead of the pack including Google Cloud. Microsoft and to a lesser extent AWS they dominate in a lot of other businesses, productivity, collaboration, database, security, video conferencing. MarTech with LinkedIn PC software et cetera, et cetera, Googles or alphabets of business of course is ads and we don't have similar spending data on Apple and Facebook, but we know these companies dominate their respective business. But just to give you a sense of the magnitude of these companies, here's some financial data that's worth looking at briefly. The table ranks companies by market cap in trillions that's the second column and everyone in the club, but meta and each has revenue well over a hundred billion dollars, Amazon approaching half a trillion dollars in revenue. The operating income and cash positions are just mind boggling and the cash equivalents are comparable or well above the revenues of highly successful tech companies like Cisco, Dell, HPE, Oracle, and Salesforce. They're extremely profitable from an operating income standpoint with the clear exception of Amazon and we'll come back to that in a moment and we show the revenue multiples in the last column, Apple, Microsoft, and Google, just insane. Dave, there are other equally important metrics, CapX is one which kind of sets the stage for future scale and there are other measures. >> Yeah, including our research and development where those companies are spending hundreds of billions of dollars over the years. And I think it's easy to look at those numbers and just say, this doesn't seem right, how can any companies have so much and spend so much? But if you think of what they're actually doing, those companies are building out the digital infrastructure of essentially the entire world. And I remember once meeting some folks at Google, and they said, beyond AI, beyond Search, beyond Android, beyond all the specific things we do, the biggest thing we're actually doing is building a physical infrastructure that can deliver search results on any topic in microseconds and the physical capacity they built costs those sorts of money. And when people start saying, well, we should have lots and lots of smaller companies well, that sounds good, yeah, it's all right, but where are those companies going to get the money to build out what needs to be built out? And every country in the world is trying to build out its digital infrastructure and some are going to do it much better than others. >> I want to just come back to that chart on Amazon for a bit, notice their comparatively tiny operating profit as a percentage of revenue, Amazon is like Bezos giant lifestyle business, it's really never been that profitable like most retail. However, there's one other financial data point around Amazon's business that we want to share and this chart here shows Amazon's operating profit in the blue bars and AWS's in the orange. And the gray line is the percentage of Amazon's overall operating profit that comes from AWS. That's the right most access, so last quarter we were well over a hundred percent underscoring the power of AWS and the horrendous margins in retail. But AWS is essentially funding Amazon's entrance into new markets, whether it's grocery or movies, Bezos moves into space. Dave, a while back you collaborated with us and we asked our audience, what could disrupt Amazon? And we came up with your detailed help, a number of scenarios as shown here. And we asked the audience to rate the likelihood of each scenario in terms of its likelihood of disrupting Amazon with a 10 being highly likely on average the score was six with complacency, arrogance, blindness, you know, self-inflicted wounds really taking the top spot with 6.5. So Dave is breaking up Amazon the right formula in your view, why or why not? >> Yeah, there's a couple of things there. The first is sort of the irony that when people in the sort of regulatory world talk about the power of Amazon, they almost always talk about their power in consumer markets, whether it's books or retail or impact on malls or main street shops or whatever and as you say that they make very little money doing that. The interest people almost never look at the big cloud battle between Amazon, Microsoft and lesser extent Google, Alibaba others, even though that's where they're by far highest market share and pricing power and all those things are. So the regulatory focus is sort of weird, but you know, the consumer stuff obviously gets more appeal to the general public. But that survey you referred to me was interesting because one of the challenges I sort of sent myself I was like okay, well, if I'm going to say that IBM case, AT&T case, Microsoft's case in all those situations the market was the one that actually minimized the power of those firms and therefore the antitrust stuff wasn't really necessary. Well, how true is that going to be again, just cause it's been true in the past doesn't mean it's true now. So what are the possible scenarios over the 2020s that might make it all happen again? And so each of those were sort of questions that we put out to others, but the ones that to me by far are the most likely I mean, they have the traditional one of company cultures sort of getting fat and happy and all, that's always the case, but the more specific ones, first of all by far I think is China. You know, Amazon retail is a low margin business. It would be vulnerable if it didn't have the cloud profits behind it, but imagine a year from now two years from now trade tensions with China get worse and Christmas comes along and China just says, well, you know, American consumers if you want that new exercise bike or that new shoes or clothing, well, anything that we make well, actually that's not available on Amazon right now, but you can get that from Alibaba. And maybe in America that's a little more farfetched, but in many countries all over the world it's not farfetched at all. And so the retail divisions vulnerability to China just seems pretty obvious. Another possible disruption, Amazon has spent billions and billions with their warehouses and their robots and their automated inventory systems and all the efficiencies that they've done there, but you could argue that maybe someday that's not really necessary that you have Search which finds where a good is made and a logistical system that picks that up and delivers it to customers and why do you need all those warehouses anyways? So those are probably the two top one, but there are others. I mean, a lot of retailers as they get stronger online, maybe they start pulling back some of the premium products from Amazon and Amazon takes their cut of whatever 30% or so people might want to keep more of that in house. You see some of that going on today. So the idea that the Amazon is in vulnerable disruption is probably is wrong and as part of the work that I'm doing, as part of stuff that I do with Dave and SiliconANGLE is how's that true for the others too? What are the scenarios for Google or Apple or Microsoft and the scenarios are all there. And so, will these companies be disrupted as they have in the past? Well, you can't say for sure, but the scenarios are certainly plausible and I certainly wouldn't bet against it and that's what history tells us. And it could easily happen once again and therefore, the antitrust should at least be cautionary and humble and realize that maybe they don't need to act as much as they think. >> Yeah, now, one of the things that you mentioned in your piece was felt like narrow remedies, were more logical. So you're not arguing for totally Les Affaire you're pushing for remedies that are more targeted in scope. And while the EU just yesterday announced new rules to limit the power of tech companies and we showed the article, some comments here the regulators they took the social media to announce a victory and they had a press conference. I know you watched that it was sort of a back slapping fest. The comments however, that we've sort of listed here are mixed, some people applauded, but we saw many comments that were, hey, this is a horrible idea, this was rushed together. And these are going to result as you say in unintended consequences, but this is serious stuff they're talking about applying would appear to be to your point or your prescription more narrowly defined restrictions although a lot of them to any company with a market cap of more than 75 billion Euro or turnover of more than 77.5 billion Euro which is a lot of companies and imposing huge penalties for violations up to 20% of annual revenue for repeat offenders, wow. So again, you've taken a brief look at these developments, you watched the press conference, what do you make of this? This is an application of more narrow restrictions, but in your quick assessment did they get it right? >> Yeah, let's break that down a little bit, start a little bit of history again and then get to Europe because although big sweeping breakups of the type that were proposed for IBM, Microsoft and all weren't necessary that doesn't mean that the government didn't do some useful things because they did. In the case of IBM government forces in Europe and America basically required IBM to make it easier for companies to make peripherals type drives, disc drives, printers that worked with IBM mainframes. They made them un-bundle their software pricing that made it easier for database companies and others to sell their of products. With AT&T it was the government that required AT&T to actually allow other phones to connect to the network, something they argued at the time would destroy security or whatever that it was the government that required them to allow MCI the long distance carrier to connect to the AT network for local deliveries. And with that Microsoft and Intel the government required them to at least treat their suppliers more even handly in terms of pricing and policies and support and such things. So the lessons out there is the big stuff wasn't really necessary, but the little stuff actually helped a lot and I think you can see the scenarios and argue in the piece that there's little stuff that can be done today in all the cases for the big five, there are things that you might want to consider the companies aren't saints they take advantage of their power, they use it in ways that sometimes can be reigned in and make for better off overall. And so that's how it brings us to the European piece of it. And to me, the European piece is much more the bad scenario of doing too much than the wiser course of trying to be narrow and specific. What they've basically done is they have a whole long list of narrow things that they're all trying to do at once. So they want Amazon not to be able to share data about its selling partners and they want Apple to open up their app store and they don't want people Google to be able to share data across its different services, Android, Search, Mail or whatever. And they don't want Facebook to be able to, they want to force Facebook to open up to other messaging services. And they want to do all these things for all the big companies all of which are American, and they want to do all that starting next year. And to me that looks like a scenario of a lot of difficult problems done quickly all of which might have some value if done really, really well, but all of which have all kinds of risks for the unintended consequence we've talked before and therefore they seem to me being too much too soon and the sort of problems we've seen in the past and frankly to really say that, I mean, the Europeans would never have done this to the companies if they're European firms, they're doing this because they're all American firms and the sort of frustration of Americans dominance of the European tech industry has always been there going back to IBM, Microsoft, Intel, and all of them. But it's particularly strong now because the tech business is so big. And so I think the politics of this at a time where we're supposedly all this great unity of America and NATO and Europe in regards to Ukraine, having the Europeans essentially go after the most important American industry brings in the geopolitics in I think an unavoidable way. And I would think the story is going to get pretty tense over the next year or so and as you say, the Europeans think that they're taking massive actions, they think they're doing the right thing. They think this is the natural follow on to the GDPR stuff and even a bigger version of that and they think they have more to come and they see themselves as the people taming big tech not just within Europe, but for the world and absent any other rules that they may pull that off. I mean, GDPR has indeed spread despite all of its flaws. So the European thing which it doesn't necessarily get huge attention here in America is certainly getting attention around the world and I would think it would get more, even more going forward. >> And the caution there is US public policy makers, maybe they can provide, they will provide a tailwind maybe it's a blind spot for them and it could be a template like you say, just like GDPR. Okay, Dave, we got to leave it there. Thanks for coming on the program today, always appreciate your insight and your views, thank you. >> Hey, thanks a lot, Dave. >> All right, don't forget these episodes are all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search, "Breaking Analysis Podcast". Check out ETR website, etr.ai. We publish every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @davevellante. Comment on my LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vellante for Dave Michelle for "theCUBE Insights" powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (slow tempo music)

(contemplative upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE, here in Palo Alto, California. Got a great topic on expanding capabilities for urgent computing. Dan Stanzione, he's Executive Director of TACC, the Texas Advanced Computing Center, and Rajesh Pohani, VP of PowerEdge, HPC Core Compute at Dell Technologies. Gentlemen, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. >> Thanks, John. >> Thanks, John, good to be here. >> Rajesh, you got a lot of computing in PowerEdge, HPC, Core Computing. I mean, I get a sense that you love compute, so we'll jump right into it. And of course, I got to love TACC, Texas Advanced Computing Center. I can imagine a lot of stuff going on there. Let's start with TACC. What is the Texas Advanced Computing Center? Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, we're part of the University of Texas at Austin here, and we build large-scale supercomputers, data systems, AI systems, to support open science research. And we're mainly funded by the National Science Foundation, so we support research projects in all fields of science, all around the country and around the world. Actually, several thousand projects at the moment. >> But tied to the university, got a lot of gear, got a lot of compute, got a lot of cool stuff going on. What's the coolest thing you got going on right now? >> Well, for me, it's always the next machine, but I think science-wise, it's the machines we have. We just finished deploying Lonestar6, which is our latest supercomputer, in conjunction with Dell. A little over 600 nodes of those PowerEdge servers that Rajesh builds for us. Which makes more than 20,000 that we've had here over the years, of those boxes. But that one just went into production. We're designing new systems for a few years from now, where we'll be even larger. Our Frontera system was top five in the world two years ago, just fell out of the top 10. So we've got to fix that and build the new top-10 system sometime soon. We always have a ton going on in large-scale computing. >> Well, I want to get to the Lonestar6 in a minute, on the next talk track, but... What are some of the areas that you guys are working on that are making an impact? Take us through, and we talked before we came on camera about, obviously, the academic affiliation, but also there's a real societal impact of the work you're doing. What are some of the key areas that the TACC is making an impact? >> So there's really a huge range from new microprocessors, new materials design, photovoltaics, climate modeling, basic science and astrophysics, and quantum mechanics, and things like that. But I think the nearest-term impacts that people see are what we call urgent computing, which is one of the drivers around Lonestar and some other recent expansions that we've done. And that's things like, there's a hurricane coming, exactly where is it going to land? Can we refine the area where there's going to be either high winds or storm surge? Can we assess the damage from digital imagery afterwards? Can we direct first responders in the optimal routes? Similarly for earthquakes, and a lot recently, as you might imagine, around COVID. In 2020, we moved almost a third of our resources to doing COVID work, full-time. >> Rajesh, I want to get your thoughts on this, because Dave Vellante and I have been talking about this on theCUBE recently, a lot. Obviously, people see what cloud's, going on with the cloud technology, but compute and on-premises, private cloud's been growing. If you look at the hyperscale on-premises and the edge, if you include that in, you're seeing a lot more user consumption on-premises, and now, with 5G, you got edge, you mentioned first responders, Dan. This is now pointing to a new architectural shift. As the VP of PowerEdge and HPC and Core Compute, you got to look at this and go, "Hmm." If Compute's going to be everywhere, and in locations, you got to have that compute. How does that all work together? And how do you do advanced computing, when you have these urgent needs, as well as real-time in a new architecture? >> Yeah, John, I mean, it's a pretty interesting time when you think about some of the changing dynamics and how customers are utilizing Compute in the compute needs in the industry. Seeing a couple of big trends. One, the distribution of Compute outside of the data center, 5G is really accelerating that, and then you're generating so much data, whether what you do with it, the insights that come out of it, that we're seeing more and more push to AI, ML, inside the data center. Dan mentioned what he's doing at TACC with computational analysis and some of the work that they're doing. So what you're seeing is, now, this push that data in the data center and what you do with it, while data is being created out at the edge. And it's actually this interesting dichotomy that we're beginning to see. Dan mentioned some of the work that they're doing in medical and on COVID research. Even at Dell, we're making cycles available for COVID research using our Zenith cluster, that's located in our HPC and AI Innovation Lab. And we continue to partner with organizations like TACC and others on research activities to continue to learn about the virus, how it mutates, and then how you treat it. So if you think about all the things, and data that's getting created, you're seeing that distribution and it's really leading to some really cool innovations going forward. >> Yeah, I want to get to that COVID research, but first, you mentioned a few words I want to get out there. You mentioned Lonestar6. Okay, so first, what is Lonestar6, then we'll get into the system aspect of it. Take us through what that definition is, what is Lonestar6? >> Well, as Dan mentioned, Lonestar6 is a Dell technology system that we developed with TACC, it's located at the University of Texas at Austin. It consists of more than 800 Dell PowerEdge 6525 servers that are powered with 3rd Generation AMD EPYC processors. And just to give you an example of the scale of this cluster, it could perform roughly three quadrillion operations per second. That's three petaFLOPS, and to match what Lonestar6 can compute in one second, a person would have to do one calculation every second for a hundred million years. So it's quite a good-size system, and quite a powerful one as well. >> Dan, what's the role that the system plays, you've got petaFLOPS, what, three petaFLOPS, you mentioned? That's a lot of FLOPS! So obviously urgent computing, what's cranking through the system there? Take us through, what's it like? >> Sure, well, there there's a mix of workloads on it, and on all our systems. So there's the urgent computing work, right? Fast turnaround, near real-time, whether it's COVID research, or doing... Project now where we bring in MRI data and are doing sort of patient-specific dosing for radiation treatments and chemotherapy, tailored to your tumor, instead of just the sort of general for people your size. That all requires sort of real-time turnaround. There's a lot AI research going on now, we're incorporating AI in traditional science and engineering research. And that uses an awful lot of data, but also consumes a huge amount of cycles in training those models. And then there's all of our traditional, simulation-based workloads and materials and digital twins for aircraft and aircraft design, and more efficient combustion in more efficient photovoltaic materials, or photovoltaic materials without using as much lead, and things like that. And I'm sure I'm missing dozens of other topics, 'cause, like I said, that one really runs every field of science. We've really focused the Lonestar line of systems, and this is obviously the sixth one we built, around our sort of Texas-centric users. It's the UT Austin users, and then with contributions from Texas A&M , and Texas Tech and the University of Texas system, MD Anderson Healthcare Center, the University of North Texas. So users all around the state, and every research problem that you might imagine, those are into. We're just ramping up a project in disaster information systems, that's looking at the probabilities of flooding in coastal Texas and doing... Can we make building code changes to mitigate impact? Do we have to change the standard foundation heights for new construction, to mitigate the increasing storm surges from these sort of slow storms that sit there and rain, like hurricanes didn't used to, but seem to be doing more and more. All those problems will run on Lonestar, and on all the systems to come, yeah. >> It's interesting, you mentioned urgent computing, I love that term because it could be an event, it could be some slow kind of brewing event like that rain example you mentioned. It could also be, obviously, with the healthcare, and you mentioned COVID earlier. These are urgent, societal challenges, and having that available, the processing capability, the compute, the data. You mentioned digital twins. I can imagine all this new goodness coming from that. Compare that, where we were 10 years ago. I mean, just from a mind-blowing standpoint, you have, have come so far, take us through, try to give a context to the level of where we are now, to do this kind of work, and where we were years ago. Can you give us a feel for that? >> Sure, there's a lot of ways to look at that, and how the technology's changed, how we operate around those things, and then sort of what our capabilities are. I think one of the big, first, urgent computing things for us, where we sort of realized we had to adapt to this model of computing was about 15 years ago with the big BP Gulf Oil spill. And suddenly, we were dumping thousands of processors of load to figure out where that oil spill was going to go, and how to do mitigation, and what the potential impacts were, and where you need to put your containment, and things like that. And it was, well, at that point we thought of it as sort of a rare event. There was another one, that I think was the first real urgent computing one, where the space shuttle was in orbit, and they knew something had hit it during takeoff. And we were modeling, along with NASA and a bunch of supercomputers around the world, the heat shield and could they make reentry safely? You have until they come back to get that problem done, you don't have months or years to really investigate that. And so, what we've sort of learned through some of those, the Japanese tsunami was another one, there have been so many over the years, is that one, these sort of disasters are all the time, right? One thing or another, right? If we're not doing hurricanes, we're doing wildfires and drought threat, if it's not COVID. We got good and ready for COVID through SARS and through the swine flu and through HIV work, and things like that. So it's that we can do the computing very fast, but you need to know how to do the work, right? So we've spent a lot of time, not only being able to deliver the computing quickly, but having the data in place, and having the code in place, and having people who know the methods who know how to use big computers, right? That's been a lot of what the COVID Consortium, the White House COVID Consortium, has been about over the last few years. And we're actually trying to modify that nationally into a strategic computing reserve, where we're ready to go after these problems, where we've run drills, right? And if there's a, there's a train that derails, and there's a chemical spill, and it's near a major city, we have the tools and the data in place to do wind modeling, and we have the terrain ready to go. And all those sorts of things that you need to have to be ready. So we've really sort of changed our sort of preparedness and operational model around urgent computing in the last 10 years. Also, just the way we scheduled the system, the ability to sort of segregate between these long-running workflows for things that are really important, like we displaced a lot of cancer research to do COVID research. And cancer's still important, but it's less likely that we're going to make an impact in the next two months, right? So we have to shuffle how we operate things and then just, having all that additional capacity. And I think one of the things that's really changed in the models is our ability to use AI, to sort of adroitly steer our simulations, or prune the space when we're searching parameters for simulations. So we have the operational changes, the system changes, and then things like adding AI on the scientific side, since we have the capacity to do that kind of things now, all feed into our sort of preparedness for this kind of stuff. >> Dan, you got me sold, I want to come work with you. Come on, can I join the team over there? It sounds exciting. >> Come on down! We always need good folks around here, so. (laughs) >> Rajesh, when I- >> Almost 200 now, and we're always growing. >> Rajesh, when I hear the stories about kind of the evolution, kind of where the state of the art is, you almost see the innovation trajectory, right? The growth and the learning, adding machine learning only extends out more capabilities. But also, Dan's kind of pointing out this kind of response, rapid compute engine, that they could actually deploy with learnings, and then software, so is this a model where anyone can call up and get some cycles to, say, power an autonomous vehicle, or, hey, I want to point the machinery and the cycles at something? Is the service, do you guys see this going that direction, or... Because this sounds really, really good. >> Yeah, I mean, one thing that Dan talked about was, it's not just the compute, it's also having the right algorithms, the software, the code, right? The ability to learn. So I think when those are set up, yeah. I mean, the ability to digitally simulate in any number of industries and areas, advances the pace of innovation, reduces the time to market of whatever a customer is trying to do or research, or even vaccines or other healthcare things. If you can reduce that time through the leverage of compute on doing digital simulations, it just makes things better for society or for whatever it is that we're trying to do, in a particular industry. >> I think the idea of instrumenting stuff is here forever, and also simulations, whether it's digital twins, and doing these kinds of real-time models. Isn't really much of a guess, so I think this is a huge, historic moment. But you guys are pushing the envelope here, at University of Texas and at TACC. It's not just research, you guys got real examples. So where do you guys see this going next? I see space, big compute areas that might need some data to be cranked out. You got cybersecurity, you got healthcare, you mentioned oil spill, you got oil and gas, I mean, you got industry, you got climate change. I mean, there's so much to tackle. What's next? >> Absolutely, and I think, the appetite for computing cycles isn't going anywhere, right? And it's only going to, it's going to grow without bound, essentially. And AI, while in some ways it reduces the amount of computing we do, it's also brought this whole new domain of modeling to a bunch of fields that weren't traditionally computational, right? We used to just do engineering, physics, chemistry, were all super computational, but then we got into genome sequencers and imaging and a whole bunch of data, and that made biology computational. And with AI, now we're making things like the behavior of human society and things, computational problems, right? So there's this sort of growing amount of workload that is, in one way or another, computational, and getting bigger and bigger. So that's going to keep on growing. I think the trick is not only going to be growing the computation, but growing the software and the people along with it, because we have amazing capabilities that we can bring to bear. We don't have enough people to hit all of them at once. And so, that's probably going to be the next frontier in growing out both our AI and simulation capability, is the human element of it. >> It's interesting, when you think about society, right? If the things become too predictable, what does a democracy even look like? If you know the election's going to be over two years from now in the United States, or you look at these major, major waves >> Human companies don't know. >> of innovation, you say, "Hmm." So it's democracy, AI, maybe there's an algorithm for checking up on the AI 'cause biases... So, again, there's so many use cases that just come out of this. It's incredible. >> Yeah, and bias in AI is something that we worry about and we work on, and on task forces where we're working on that particular problem, because the AI is going to take... Is based on... Especially when you look at a deep learning model, it's 100% a product of the data you show it, right? So if you show it a biased data set, it's going to have biased results. And it's not anything intrinsic about the computer or the personality, the AI, it's just data mining, right? In essence, right, it's learning from data. And if you show it all images of one particular outcome, it's going to assume that's always the outcome, right? It just has no choice, but to see that. So how we deal with bias, how do we deal with confirmation, right? I mean, in addition, you have to recognize, if you haven't, if it gets data it's never seen before, how do you know it's not wrong, right? So there's about data quality and quality assurance and quality checking around AI. And that's where, especially in scientific research, we use what's starting to be called things like physics-informed or physics-constrained AI, where the neural net that you're using to design an aircraft still has to follow basic physical laws in its output, right? Or if you're doing some materials or astrophysics, you still have to obey conservation of mass, right? So I can't say, well, if you just apply negative mass on this other side and positive mass on this side, everything works out right for stable flight. 'Cause we can't do negative mass, right? So you have to constrain it in the real world. So this notion of how we bring in the laws of physics and constrain your AI to what's possible is also a big part of the sort of AI research going forward. >> You know, Dan, you just, to me just encapsulate the science that's still out there, that's needed. Computer science, social science, material science, kind of all converging right now. >> Yeah, engineering, yeah, >> Engineering, science, >> slipstreams, >> it's all there, >> physics, yeah, mmhmm. >> it's not just code. And, Rajesh, data. You mentioned data, the more data you have, the better the AI. We have a world what's going from silos to open control planes. We have to get to a world. This is a cultural shift we're seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Well, it is, in that, the ability to drive predictive analysis based on the data is going to drive different behaviors, right? Different social behaviors for cultural impacts. But I think the point that Dan made about bias, right, it's only as good as the code that's written and the way that the data is actually brought into the system. So making sure that that is done in a way that generates the right kind of outcome, that allows you to use that in a predictive manner, becomes critically important. If it is biased, you're going to lose credibility in a lot of that analysis that comes out of it. So I think that becomes critically important, but overall, I mean, if you think about the way compute is, it's becoming pervasive. It's not just in selected industries as damage, and it's now applying to everything that you do, right? Whether it is getting you more tailored recommendations for your purchasing, right? You have better options that way. You don't have to sift through a lot of different ideas that, as you scroll online. It's tailoring now to some of your habits and what you're looking for. So that becomes an incredible time-saver for people to be able to get what they want in a way that they want it. And then you look at the way it impacts other industries and development innovation, and it just continues to scale and scale and scale. >> Well, I think the work that you guys are doing together is scratching the surface of the future, which is digital business. It's about data, it's about out all these new things. It's about advanced computing meets the right algorithms for the right purpose. And it's a really amazing operation you guys got over there. Dan, great to hear the stories. It's very provocative, very enticing to just want to jump in and hang out. But I got to do theCUBE day job here, but congratulations on success. Rajesh, great to see you and thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Okay. >> Thanks very much. >> Great conversation around urgent computing, as computing becomes so much more important, bigger problems and opportunities are around the corner. And this is theCUBE, we're documenting it all here. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (contemplative music)

(radio calls) >> Announcer: From around the globe, its theCUBE covering Space & Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal poly. Hello, welcome back to theCUBE virtual coverage with Cal Poly for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium, a day four and the wrap up session, keynote session with the Lieutenant Governor of California, Eleni Kounalakis. She's here to deliver her keynote speech on the topic of California's role in supporting America's Cybersecurity future. Eleni, take it away. >> Thank you, John, for the introduction. I am Lieutenant Governor Eleni Kounalakis. It is an honor to be part of Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. As I speak kind of Pierre with the governor's office of business and economic development is available on the chat, too ready to answer any questions you might have. California and indeed the world are facing significant challenges right now. Every day we are faced with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and the economic downturn that is ensued. We have flattened the curve in California and are moving in the right direction but it is clear that we're not out of the woods yet. It is also impossible right now to escape the reality of climate change from the fire sparked by exceptionally rare, dry lightening events to extreme heat waves threatening public health and putting a strain on our electricity grid. We see that climate change is here now. And of course we've been recently confronted with a series of brutal examples of institutionalized racism that have created an awakening among people of all walks of life and compelled us into the streets to march and protest. In the context of all this, we cannot forget that we continue to be faced with other less visible but still very serious challenges. Cybersecurity threats are one of these. We have seen cities, companies and individuals paralyzed by attacks costing time and money and creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and insecurity. Our state agencies, local governments, police departments, utilities, news outlets and private companies from all industries are target. The threats around cybersecurity are serious but not unlike all the challenges we face in California. We have the tools and fortitude to address them. That is why this symposium is so important. Thank you, Cal Poly and all the participants for being here and for the important contributions you bring to this conference. I'd like to also say a few words about California's role in America's future in space. California has been at the forefront of the aerospace industry for more than a century through all the major innovations in aerospace from wooden aircraft, to World War II Bombers, to rockets and Mars rovers. California has played a pivotal role. Today, California is the number one state in total defense spending, defense contract spending and total number of personnel. It is estimated the Aerospace and Defense Industry, provides $168 billion in economic impact to our state. And America's best trained and most experienced aerospace and technology workforce lives here in California. The fact that the aerospace and defense sector, has had a strong history in California is no accident. California has always had strong innovation ecosystem and robust infrastructure that puts many sectors in a position to thrive. Of course, a big part of that infrastructure is a skilled workforce. And at the foundation of a skilled workforce is education. California has the strongest system of public higher education in the world. We're home to 10 university of California campuses, 23 California State university campuses and 116 California Community Colleges. All told nearly 3 million students are enrolled in public higher education. We also have world renowned private universities including the California Institute of Technology and Stanford University numbers one and three in the country for aerospace engineering. California also has four national laboratories and several NASA facilities. California possesses a strong spirit of innovation, risk taking and entrepreneurship. Half of all venture capital funding in the United States, goes to companies here in California. Lastly, but certainly no less critical to our success, California is a diverse state. 27% of all Californians are foreign born, 27% more than one in four of our population of 40 million people are immigrants from another country, Europe central and South America, India, Asia, everywhere. Our rich cultural diversity is our strength and helps drive our economy. As I look to the future of industries like cybersecurity and the growing commercial space industry, I know our state will need to work with those industries to make sure we continue to train our workforce for the demands of an evolving industry. The office of the lieutenant governor has a unique perspective on higher education and workforce development. I'm on the UC Board of Regents, the CSU Board of Trustees. And as of about two weeks ago, the Community Colleges Board of Governors. The office of the lieutenant governor is now the only office that is a member of every governing board, overseeing our public higher education system. Earlier in the symposium, we heard a rich discussion with Undersecretary Stewart Knox from the California Labor and Workforce Development Agency about what the state is doing to meet the needs of space and cybersecurity industries. As he mentioned, there are over 37,000 job vacancies in cybersecurity in our state. We need to address that gap. To do so, I see an important role for public private partnerships. We need input from industry and curriculum development. Some companies like Lockheed Martin, have very productive partnerships with universities and community colleges that train students with skills they need to enter aerospace and cyber industries. That type of collaboration will be key. We also need help from the industry to make sure students know that fields like cybersecurity even exist. People's early career interests are so often shaped by the jobs that members of their family have or what they see in popular culture. With such a young and evolving field like cybersecurity, many students are unaware of the job opportunities. I know for my visits to university campuses that students are hungry for STEM career paths where they see opportunities for good paying jobs. When I spoke with students at UC Merced, many of them were first generation college students who went through community college system before enrolling in a UC and they gravitated to STEM majors. With so many job opportunities available to STEM students, cybersecurity ought to be one that they are aware of and consider. Since this symposium is being hosted by Cal Poly, I wanted to highlight the tremendous work they're doing as leaders in the space and cybersecurity industry. Cal Poly California Cybersecurity Institute, does incredible work bringing together academia, industry and government training the next generation of cyber experts and researching emerging cybersecurity issues. As we heard from the President of Cal Poly, Jeff Armstrong the university is in the perfect location to contribute to a thriving space industry. It's close to Vandenberg Air Force Base and UC Santa Barbara and could be home to the future permanent headquarters of US Space Command. The state is also committed to supporting this space industry in the Central Coast. In July, the State of California, Cal poly US-based force and the others signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a commercial space port at Vandenberg Air Force Base and to develop a master plan to grow the commercial space industry in the region. Governor Newsom has made a commitment to lift up all regions of the state. And this strategy will position the Central Coast to be a global leader in the future of the space industry. I'd like to leave you with a few final thoughts, with everything we're facing. Fires, climate change, pandemic. It is easy to feel overwhelmed but I remain optimistic because I know that the people of the State of California are resilient, persistent, and determined to address our challenges and show a path toward a better future for ourselves and our families. The growth of the space industry and the economic development potential of projects like the Spaceport at Vandenberg Air Force Base, our great example of what we can look forward to. The potential for the commercial space industry to become a $3 trillion industry by mid century, as many experts predict is another. There are so many opportunities, new companies are going to emerge doing things we never could have dreamed of today. As Lieutenant General John Thompson said in the first session, the next few years of space and cyber innovation are not going to be a pony ride at the state fair, they're going to be a rodeo. We should all saddle up. Thank you. >> Okay, thank you very much, Eleni. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your participation and all your support to you and your staff. You guys doing a lot of work, a lot going on in California but cybersecurity and space as it comes together, California's playing a pivotal role in leading the world and the community. Thank you very much for your time. >> Okay, this session is going to continue with Bill Britton. Who's the vice president of technology and CIO at Cal Poly but more importantly, he's the director of the cyber institute located at Cal Poly. It's a global organization looking at the intersection of space and cybersecurity. Bill, let's wrap this up. Eleni had a great talk, talking about the future of cybersecurity in America and its future. The role California is playing, Cal Poly is right in the Central Coast. You're in the epicenter of it. We've had a great lineup here. Thanks for coming on. Let's put a capstone on this event. >> Thank you, John. But most importantly, thanks for being a great partner helping us get this to move forward and really changing the dynamic of this conversation. What an amazing time we're at, we had quite an unusual group but it's really kind of the focus and we've moved a lot of space around ourselves. And we've gone from Lieutenant General Thompson and the discussion of the opposition and space force and what things are going on in the future, the importance of cyber in space. And then we went on and moved on to the operations. And we had a private company who builds, we had the DOD, Department Of Defense and their context and NASA and theirs. And then we talked about public private partnerships from President Armstrong, Mr. Bhangu Mahad from the DOD and Mr. Steve Jacques from the National Security Space Association. It's been an amazing conference for one thing, I've heard repeatedly over and over and over, the reference to digital, the reference to cloud, the reference to the need for cybersecurity to be involved and really how important that is to start earlier than just at the employment level. To really go down into the system, the K through 12 and start there. And what an amazing time to be able to start there because we're returning to space in a larger capacity and it's now all around us. And the lieutenant governor really highlighted for us that California is intimately involved and we have to find a way to get our students involved at that same level. >> I want to ask you about this inflection point that was a big theme of this conference and symposium. It was throughout the interviews and throughout the conversations, both on the chat and also kind of on Twitter as well in the social web. Is that this new generation, it wasn't just space and government DOD, all the normal stuff you see, you saw JPL, the Hewlett Foundation, the Defense Innovation Unit, Amazon Web Services, NASA. Then you saw entrepreneurs come in, who were doing some stuff. And so you had this confluence of community. Of course, Cal Poly had participated in space. You guys does some great job, but it's not just the physical face-to-face show up, gets to hear some academic papers. This was a virtual event. We had over 300 organizations attend, different organizations around the world. Being a virtual event you had more range to get more people. This isn't digital. This symposium isn't about Central California anymore. It's global. >> No, it really has gone. >> What really happened to that? >> It's really kind of interesting because at first all of this was word of mouth for this symposium to take place. And it just started growing and growing and the more that we talk to organizations for support, the more we found how interconnected they were on an international scale. So much so that we've decided to take our cyber competition next year and take it globally as well. So if in fact as Major General Shaw said, this is about a multinational support force. Maybe it's time our students started interacting on that level to start with and not have to grow into it as they get older, but do it now and around space and around cybersecurity and around that digital environment and really kind of reduce the digital dividing space. >> Yeah, General Thompson mentioned this, 80 countries with programs. This is like the Olympics for space and we want to have these competitions. So I got great vision and I love that vision, but I know you have the number... Not number, the scores and from the competition this year that happened earlier in the week. Could you share the results of that challenge? >> Yeah, absolutely. We had 83 teams participate this year in the California Cyber Innovation Challenge. And again, it was based around a spacecraft scenario where a spacecraft, a commercial spacecraft was hacked and returned to earth. And the students had to do the forensics on the payload. And then they had to do downstream network analysis, using things like Wireshark and autopsy and other systems. It was a really tough competition. The students had to work hard and we had middle school and high school students participate. We had an intermediate league, new schools who had never done it before or even some who didn't even have STEM programs but were just signing up to really get involved in the experience. And we had our ultimate division which was those who had competed in several times before. And the winner of that competition was North Hollywood. They've been the winning team for four years in a row. Now it's a phenomenal program, they have their hats off to them for competing and winning again. Now what's really cool is not only did they have to show their technical prowess in the game but they also have to then brief and out-brief what they've learned to a panel of judges. And these are not pushovers. These are experts in the field of cybersecurity in space. We even had a couple of goons participating from DefCon and the teams present their findings. So not only are we talking technical, we're talking about presentation skills. The ability to speak and understand. And let me tell you, after reading all of their texts to each other over the weekend adds a whole new language they're using to interact with each other. It's amazing. And they are so more advanced and ready to understand space problems and virtual problems than we are. We have to challenge them even more. >> Well, it sounds like North Hollywood got the franchise. It's likethe Patriots, the Lakers, they've got a dynasty developing down there in North Hollywood. >> Well, what happens when there's a dynasty you have to look for other talent. So next year we're going global and we're going to have multiple states involved in the challenge and we're going to go international. So if North Hollywood pulls it off again next year, it's going to be because they've met the best in the world than defeated >> Okay, the gauntlet has been thrown down, got to take down North Hollywood from winning again next year. We'll be following that. Bill, great to get those results on the cyber challenge we'll keep track and we'll put a plug for it on our site. So we got to get some press on that. My question to you is now as we're going digital, other theme was that they want to hire digital natives into the space force. Okay, the DOD is looking at new skills. This was a big theme throughout the conference not just the commercial partnerships with government which I believe they had kind of put more research and personally, that's my personal opinion. They should be putting in way more research into academic and these environments to get more creative. But the skill sets was a big theme. What's your thoughts on how you saw some of the highlight moments there around skill sets? >> John, it's really interesting 'cause what we've noticed is in the past, everybody thinks skill sets for the engineering students. And it's way beyond that. It's all the students, it's all of them understanding what we call cyber cognizance. Understanding how cybersecurity works whatever career field they choose to be in. Space, there is no facet of supporting space that doesn't need that cyber cognizance. If you're in the back room doing the operations, you're doing the billing, you're doing the contracting. Those are still avenues by which cybersecurity attacks can be successful and disrupt your space mission. The fact that it's international, the connectivities, all of those things means that everyone in that system digitally has to be aware of what's going on around them. That's a whole new thought process. It's a whole new way of addressing a problem and dealing with space. And again it's virtual to everyone. >> That's awesome. Bill, great to have you on. Thank you for including theCUBE virtual, our CUBE event software platform that we're rolling out. We've been using it for the event and thank you for your partnership in this co-creation opening up your community, your symposium to the world, and we're so glad to be part of it. I want to thank you and Dustin and the team and the President of Cal Poly for including us. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, John. It's been an amazing partnership. We look forward to it in the future. >> Okay, that's it. That concludes the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, your host with Cal Poly, who put on an amazing virtual presentation, brought all the guests together. And again, shout out to Bill Britton and Dustin DeBrum who did a great job as well as the President of Cal poly who endorsed and let them do it all. Great event. See you soon. (flash light sound)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back I'm Stu Miniman, this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, the virtual event. Of course, when we talk about Cloud Native we talk about Kubernetes there's a lot that's happening to modernize the infrastructure but a very important thing that we're going to talk about today is also what's happening up the stack, what sits on top of it and some of the new use cases and applications that are enabled by all of this modern environment and for that we're going to talk about artificial intelligence and machine learning or AI and ML as we tend to talk in the industry, so happy to welcome to the program. We have two first time guests joining us from Red Hat. First of all, we have Abhinav Joshi and Tushar Katarki they are both senior managers, part of the OpenShift group. Abhinav is in the product marketing and Tushar is in product management. Abhinav and Tushar thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks a lot, Stu, we're glad to be here. >> Thanks Stu and glad to be here at KubeCon. >> All right, so Abhinav I mentioned in the intro here, modernization of the infrastructure is awesome but really it's an enabler. We know... I'm an infrastructure person the whole reason we have infrastructure is to be able to drive those applications, interact with my data and the like and of course, AI and ML are exciting a lot going on there but can also be challenging. So, Abhinav if I could start with you bring us inside your customers that you're talking to, what are the challenges, the opportunities? What are they seeing in this space? Maybe what's been holding them back from really unlocking the value that is expected? >> Yup, that's a very good question to kick off the conversation. So what we are seeing as an organization they typically face a lot of challenges when they're trying to build an AI/ML environment, right? And the first one is like a talent shortage. There is a limited amount of the AI, ML expertise in the market and especially the data scientists that are responsible for building out the machine learning and the deep learning models. So yeah, it's hard to find them and to be able to retain them and also other talents like a data engineer or app DevOps folks as well and the lack of talent can actually stall the project. And the second key challenge that we see is the lack of the readily usable data. So the businesses collect a lot of data but they must find the right data and make it ready for the data scientists to be able to build out, to be able to test and train the machine learning models. If you don't have the right kind of data to the predictions that your model is going to do in the real world is only going to be so good. So that becomes a challenge as well, to be able to find and be able to wrangle the right kind of data. And the third key challenge that we see is the lack of the rapid availability of the compute infrastructure, the data and machine learning, and the app dev tools for the various personas like a data scientist or data engineer, the software developers and so on that can also slow down the project, right? Because if all your teams are waiting on the infrastructure and the tooling of their choice to be provisioned on a recurring basis and they don't get it in a timely manner, it can stall the projects. And then the next one is the lack of collaboration. So you have all these kinds of teams that are involved in the AI project, and they have to collaborate with each other because the work one of the team does has a dependency on a different team like say for example, the data scientists are responsible for building the machine learning models and then what they have to do is they have to work with the app dev teams to make sure the models get integrated as part of the app dev processes and ultimately rolled out into the production. So if all these teams are operating in say silos and there is lack of collaboration between the teams, so this can stall the projects as well. And finally, what we see is the data scientists they typically start the machine learning modeling on their individual PCs or laptops and they don't focus on the operational aspects of the solution. So what this means is when the IT teams have to roll all this out into a production kind of deployment, so they get challenged to take all the work that has been done by the individuals and then be able to make sense out of it, be able to make sure that it can be seamlessly brought up in a production environment in a consistent way, be it on-premises, be it in the cloud or be it say at the edge. So these are some of the key challenges that we see that the organizations are facing, as they say try to take the AI projects from pilot to production. >> Well, some of those things seem like repetition of what we've had in the past. Obviously silos have been the bane of IT moving forward and of course, for many years we've been talking about that gap between developers and what's happening in the operation side. So Tushar, help us connect the dots, containers, Kubernetes, the whole DevOps movement. How is this setting us up to actually be successful for solutions like AI and ML? >> Sure Stu I mean, in fact you said it right like in the world of software, in the world of microservices, in the world of app modernization, in the world of DevOps in the past 10, 15 years, but we have seen this evolution revolution happen with containers and Kubernetes driving more DevOps behavior, driving more agile behavior so this in fact is what we are trying to say here can ease up the cable to EIML also. So the various containers, Kubernetes, DevOps and OpenShift for software development is directly applicable for AI projects to make them move agile, to get them into production, to make them more valuable to organization so that they can realize the full potential of AI. We already touched upon a few personas so it's useful to think about who the users are, who the personas are. Abhinav I talked about data scientists these are the people who obviously do the machine learning itself, do the modeling. Then there are data engineers who do the plumbing who provide the essential data. Data is so essential to machine learning and deep learning and so there are data engineers that are app developers who in some ways will then use the output of what the data scientists have produced in terms of models and then incorporate them into services and of course, none of these things are purely cast in stone there's a lot of overlap you could find that data scientists are app developers as well, you'll see some of app developers being data scientist later data engineer. So it's a continuum rather than strict boundaries, but regardless what all of these personas groups of people need or experts need is self service to that preferred tools and compute and storage resources to be productive and then let's not forget the IT, engineering and operations teams that need to make all this happen in an easy, reliable, available manner and something that is really safe and secure. So containers help you, they help you quickly and easily deploy a broad set of machine learning tools, data tools across the cloud, the hybrid cloud from data center to public cloud to the edge in a very consistent way. Teams can therefore alternatively modify, change a shared container images, machine learning models with (indistinct) and track changes. And this could be applicable to both containers as well as to the data by the way and be transparent and transparency helps in collaboration but also it could help with the regulatory reasons later on in the process. And then with containers because of the inherent processes solution, resource control and protection from threat they can also be very secure. Now, Kubernetes takes it to the next level first of all, it forms a cluster of all your compute and data resources, and it helps you to run your containerized tools and whatever you develop on them in a consistent way with access to these shared compute and centralized compute and storage and networking resources from the data center, the edge or the public cloud. They provide things like resource management, workload scheduling, multi-tendency controls so that you can be a proper neighbors if you will, and quota enforcement right? Now that's Kubernetes now if you want to up level it further if you want to enhance what Kubernetes offers then you go into how do you write applications? How do you actually make those models into services? And that's where... and how do you lifecycle them? And that's sort of the power of Helm and for the more Kubernetes operators really comes into the picture and while Helm helps in installing some of this for a complete life cycle experience. A kubernetes operator is the way to go and they simplify the acceleration and deployment and life cycle management from end-to-end of your entire AI, ML tool chain. So all in all organizations therefore you'll see that they need to dial up and define models rapidly just like applications that's how they get ready out of it quickly. There is a lack of collaboration across teams as Abhinav pointed out earlier, as you noticed that has happened still in the world of software also. So we're talking about how do you bring those best practices here to AI, ML. DevOps approaches for machine learning operations or many analysts and others have started calling as MLOps. So how do you kind of bring DevOps to machine learning, and fosters better collaboration between teams, application developers and IT operations and create this feedback loop so that the time to production and the ability to take more machine learning into production and ML-powered applications into production increase is significant. So that's kind of the, where I wanted shine the light on what you were referring to earlier, Stu. >> All right, Abhinav of course one of the good things about OpenShift is you have quite a lot of customers that have deployed the solution over the years, bring us inside some of your customers what are they doing for AI, ML and help us understand really what differentiates OpenShift in the marketplace for this solution set. >> Yeah, absolutely that's a very good question as well and we're seeing a lot of traction in terms of all kinds of industries, right? Be it the financial services like healthcare, automotive, insurance, oil and gas, manufacturing and so on. For a wide variety of use cases and what we are seeing is at the end of the day like all these deployments are focused on helping improve the customer experience, be able to automate the business processes and then be able to help them increase the revenue, serve their customers better, and also be able to save costs. If you go to openshift.com/ai-ml it's got like a lot of customer stories in there but today I will not touch on three of the customers we have in terms of the different industries. The first one is like Royal Bank of Canada. So they are a top global financial institution based out of Canada and they have more than 17 million clients globally. So they recently announced that they build out an AI-powered private cloud platform that was based on OpenShift as well as the NVIDIA DGX AI compute system and this whole solution is actually helping them to transform the customer banking experience by being able to deliver an AI-powered intelligent apps and also at the same time being able to improve the operational efficiency of their organization. And now with this kind of a solution, what they're able to do is they're able to run thousands of simulations and be able to analyze millions of data points in a fraction of time as compared to the solution that they had before. Yeah, so like a lot of great work going on there but now the next one is the ETCA healthcare. So like ETCA is one of the leading healthcare providers in the country and they're based out of the Nashville, Tennessee. And they have more than 184 hospitals as well as more than 2,000 sites of care in the U.S. as well as in the UK. So what they did was they developed a very innovative machine learning power data platform on top of our OpenShift to help save lives. The first use case was to help with the early detection of sepsis like it's a life-threatening condition and then more recently they've been able to use OpenShift in the same kind of stack to be able to roll out the new applications that are powered by machine learning and deep learning let say to help them fight COVID-19. And recently they did a webinar as well that had all the details on the challenges they had like how did they go about it? Like the people, process and technology and then what the outcomes are. And we are proud to be a partner in the solution to help with such a noble cause. And the third example I want to share here is the BMW group and our partner DXC Technology what they've done is they've actually developed a very high performing data-driven data platform, a development platform based on OpenShift to be able to analyze the massive amount of data from the test fleet, the data and the speed of the say to help speed up the autonomous driving initiatives. And what they've also done is they've redesigned the connected drive capability that they have on top of OpenShift that's actually helping them provide various use cases to help improve the customer experience. With the customers and all of the customers are able to leverage a lot of different value-add services directly from within the car, their own cars. And then like last year at the Red Hat Summit they had a keynote as well and then this year at Summit, they were one of the Innovation Award winners. And we have a lot more stories but these are the three that I thought are actually compelling that I should talk about here on theCUBE. >> Yeah Abhinav just a quick follow up for you. One of the things of course we're looking at in 2020 is how has the COVID-19 pandemic, people working from home how has that impacted projects? I have to think that AI and ML are one of those projects that take a little bit longer to deploy, is it something that you see are they accelerating it? Are they putting on pause or are new project kicking off? Anything you can share from customers you're hearing right now as to the impact that they're seeing this year? >> Yeah what we are seeing is that the customers are now even more keen to be able to roll out the digital (indistinct) but we see a lot of customers are now on the accelerated timeline to be able to say complete the AI, ML project. So yeah, it's picking up a lot of momentum and we talk to a lot of analyst as well and they are reporting the same thing as well. But there is the interest that is actually like ramping up on the AI, ML projects like across their customer base. So yeah it's the right time to be looking at the innovation services that it can help improve the customer experience in the new virtual world that we live in now about COVID-19. >> All right, Tushar you mentioned that there's a few projects involved and of course we know at this conference there's a very large ecosystem. Red Hat is a strong contributor to many, many open source projects. Give us a little bit of a view as to in the AI, ML space who's involved, which pieces are important and how Red Hat looks at this entire ecosystem? >> Thank you, Stu so as you know technology partnerships and the power of open is really what is driving the technology world these days in any ways and particularly in the AI ecosystem. And that is mainly because one of the machine learning is in a bootstrap in the past 10 years or so and a lot of that emerging technology to take advantage of the emerging data as well as compute power has been built on the kind of the Linux ecosystem with openness and languages like popular languages like Python, et cetera. And so what you... and of course tons of technology based in Java but the point really here is that the ecosystem plays a big role and open plays a big role and that's kind of Red Hat's best cup of tea, if you will. And that really has plays a leadership role in the open ecosystem so if we take your question and kind of put it into two parts, what is the... what we are doing in the community and then what we are doing in terms of partnerships themselves, commercial partnerships, technology partnerships we'll take it one step at a time. In terms of the community itself, if you step back to the three years, we worked with other vendors and users, including Google and NVIDIA and H2O and other Seldon, et cetera, and both startups and big companies to develop this Kubeflow ecosystem. The Kubeflow is upstream community that is focused on developing MLOps as we talked about earlier end-to-end machine learning on top of Kubernetes. So Kubeflow right now is in 1.0 it happened a few months ago now it's actually at 1.1 you'll see that coupon here and then so that's the Kubeflow community in addition to that we are augmenting that with the Open Data Hub community which is something that extends the capabilities of the Kubeflow community to also add some of the data pipelining stuff and some of the data stuff that I talked about and forms a reference architecture on how to run some of this on top of OpenShift. So the Open Data Hub community also has a great way of including partners from a technology partnership perspective and then tie that with something that I mentioned earlier, which is the idea of Kubernetes operators. Now, if you take a step back as I mentioned earlier, Kubernetes operators help manage the life cycle of the entire application or containerized application including not only the configuration on day one but also day two activities like update and backups, restore et cetera whatever the application needs. Afford proper functioning that a "operator" needs for it to make sure so anyways, the Kubernetes operators ecosystem is also flourishing and we haven't faced that with the OperatorHub.io which is a community marketplace if you will, I don't call it marketplace a community hub because it's just comprised of community operators. So the Open Data Hub actually can take community operators and can show you how to run that on top of OpenShift and manage the life cycle. Now that's the reference architecture. Now, the other aspect of it really is as I mentioned earlier is the commercial aspect of it. It is from a customer point of view, how do I get certified, supported software? And to that extent, what we have is at the top of the... from a user experience point of view, we have certified operators and certified applications from the AI, ML, ISV community in the Red Hat marketplace. And from the Red Hat marketplace is where it becomes easy for end users to easily deploy these ISVs and manage the complete life cycle as I said. Some of the examples of these kinds of ISVs include startups like H2O although H2O is kind of well known in certain sectors PerceptiLabs, Cnvrg, Seldon, Starburst et cetera and then on the other side, we do have other big giants also in this which includes partnerships with NVIDIA, Cloudera et cetera that we have announced, including our also SaaS I got to mention. So anyways these provide... create that rich ecosystem for data scientists to take advantage of. A TEDx Summit back in April, we along with Cloudera, SaaS Anaconda showcased a live demo that shows all these things to working together on top of OpenShift with this operator kind of idea that I talked about. So I welcome people to go and take a look the openshift.com/ai-ml that Abhinav already referenced should have a link to that it take a simple Google search might download if you need some of that, but anyways and the other part of it is really our work with the hardware OEMs right? And so obviously NVIDIA GPUs is obviously hardware, and that accelerations is really important in this world but we are also working with other OEM partners like HP and Dell to produce this accelerated AI platform that turnkey solutions to run your data-- to create this open AI platform for "private cloud" or the data center. The other thing obviously is IBM, IBM Cloud Pak for Data is based on OpenShift that has been around for some time and is seeing very good traction, if you think about a very turnkey solution, IBM Cloud Pak is definitely kind of well ahead in that and then finally Red Hat is about driving innovation in the open-source community. So, as I said earlier, we are doing the Open Data Hub which that reference architecture that showcases a combination of upstream open source projects and all these ISV ecosystems coming together. So I welcome you to take a look at that at opendatahub.io So I think that would be kind of the some total of how we are not only doing open and community building but also doing certifications and providing to our customers that assurance that they can run these tools in production with the help of a rich certified ecosystem. >> And customer is always key to us so that's the other thing that the goal here is to provide our customers with a choice, right? They can go with open source or they can go with a commercial solution as well. So you want to make sure that they get the best in cloud experience on top of our OpenShift and our broader portfolio as well. >> All right great, great note to end on, Abhinav thank you so much and Tushar great to see the maturation in this space, such an important use case. Really appreciate you sharing this with theCUBE and Kubecon community. >> Thank you, Stu. >> Thank you, Stu. >> Okay thank you and thanks a lot and have a great rest of the show. Thanks everyone, stay safe. >> Thanks you and stay with us for a lot more coverage from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, the virtual edition I'm Stu Miniman and thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (soft upbeat music plays)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to the Palo Alto Studios, theCube. I'm John Furrier, we here for a special Cube Conversation and special report, big news from VMware to discuss the launch of the availability of vSphere 7. I'm here with Krish Prasad SVP and General Manager of the vSphere Business and Cloud Platform Business Unit. And Paul Turner, VP of vSphere Product Management. Guys, thanks for coming in and talking about the big news. >> Thank you for having us. >> You guys announced some interesting things back in March around containers, Kubernetes and vSphere. Krish, tell us about the hard news what's being announced? >> Today we are announcing the general availability of vSphere 7. John, it's by far the biggest release that we have done in the last 10 years. We premiered it as project Pacific few months ago. With this release, we are putting Kubernetes native support into the vSphere platform. What that allows us to do is give customers the ability to run both modern applications based on Kubernetes and containers, as well as traditional VM based applications on the same platform. And it also allows the IT departments to provide their developers, cloud operating model using the VMware cloud foundation that is powered by this release. This is a key part of our (murmurs) portfolio solutions and products that we announced this year. And it is targeted fully at the developers of modern applications. >> And the specific news is vSphere.. >> Seven is generally available. >> Generally a vSphere 7? >> Yes. >> So let's on the trend line here, the relevance is what? What's the big trend line, that this is riding obviously we saw the announcements at VMware last year, and throughout the year, there's a lot of buzz. Pat Gelsinger says, "There's a big wave here with Kubernetes." What does this announcement mean for you guys with the marketplace trend? >> Yes what Kubernetes is really about is people trying to have an agile operation, they're trying to modernize the IT applications. And the best way to do that, is build off your current platform, expand it and make it a an innovative, an Agile Platform for you to run Kubernetes applications and VM applications together. And not just that customers are also looking at being able to manage a hybrid cloud environment, both on-prem and public cloud together. So they want to be able to evolve and modernize their application stack, but modernize their infrastructure stack, which means hybrid cloud operations with innovative applications Kubernetes or container based applications and VMs. >> What's exciting about this trend, Krish, we were talking about this at VMworld last year, we had many conversations around cloud native, but you're seeing cloud native becoming the operating model for modern business. I mean, this is really the move to the cloud. If you look at the successful enterprises, leaving the suppliers, the on premises piece, if not moved to the cloud native marketplace technologies, the on-premise isn't effective. So it's not so much on-premises going away, we know it's not, but it's turning into cloud native. This is the move to the cloud generally, this is a big wave. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, John, if you think about it on-premise, we have, significant market share, we are by far the leader in the market. And so what we are trying to do with this, is to allow customers to use the current platform they are using, but bring their modern application development on top of the same platform. Today, customers tend to set up stacks, which are different, so you have a Kubernetes stack, you have stack for the traditional applications, you have operators and administrators who are specialized in Kubernetes on one side, and you have the traditional VM operators on the other side. With this move, what we are saying is that you can be on the same common platform, you can have the same administrators who are used to administering the environment that you already had, and at the same time, offer the developers what they like, which is Kubernetes dial-tone, that they can come and deploy their applications on the same platform that you use for traditional applications. >> Yeah, Paul, Pat said Kubernetes can be the dial-tone of the internet. Most millennials might even know what dial-tone is. But what he meant is that's the key fabric, that's going to orchestrate. And we've heard over the years skill gap, skill gap, not a lot of skills out there. But when you look at the reality of skills gap, it's really about skills gaps and shortages, not enough people, most CIOs and chief information security officers, that we talk to, say, I don't want to fork my development teams, I don't want to have three separate teams, I don't have to, I want to have automation, I want an operating model that's not going to be fragmented. This kind of speaks to this whole idea of, interoperability and multi cloud. This seems to be the next big way behind hybrid. >> I think it is the next big wave, the thing that customers are looking for is a cloud operating model. They like the ability for developers to be able to invoke new services on demand in a very agile way. And we want to bring that cloud operating model to on-prem, to Google Cloud, to Amazon cloud to Microsoft Cloud to any of our VCPP partners. You get the same cloud operating experience. And it's all driven by a Kubernetes based dial-tone that's effective and available within this platform. So by bringing a single infrastructure platform that can run in this hybrid manner, and give you the cloud operating agility the developers are looking for, that's what's key in version seven. >> Does Pat Gelsinger mean when he says dial-tone of the internet Kubernetes. Does he mean always on? or what does he mean specifically? Just that it's always available? what's the meaning behind that phrase? >> The first thing he means is that developers can come to the infrastructure, which is, The VMware Cloud Foundation, and be able to work with a set of API's that are Kubernetes API's. So developers understand that, they are looking for that. They understand that dial-tone, right? And you come to our VMware cloud foundation that runs across all these clouds, you get the same API set that you can use to deploy that application. >> Okay, so let's get into the value here of vSphere 7, how does VMware and vSphere 7 specifically help customers? Isn't just bolting on Kubernetes to vSphere, some will say is that's simple or (murmurs) you're running product management no, it's not that easy. Some people say, "He is bolting Kubernetes on vSphere." >> it's not that easy. So one of the things, if anybody has actually tried deploying Kubernetes, first, it's highly complicated. And so definitely one of the things that we're bringing is you call it a bolt on, but it's certainly not like that we are making it incredibly simple. You talked about IT operational shortages, customers want to be able to deploy Kubernetes environments in a very simple way. The easiest way that you can do that is take your existing environment that route 90% of IT, and just turn on the Kubernetes dial-tone, and it is as simple as that. Now, it's much more than that, in version seven, as well, we're bringing in a couple things that are very important. You also have to be able to manage at scale, just like you would in the cloud, you want to be able to have infrastructure, almost self manage and upgrade and lifecycle manage itself. And so we're bringing in a new way of managing infrastructure so that you can manage just large scale environments, both on-premise and public cloud environments at scale. And then associated with that as well is you must make it secure. So there's a lot of enhancements we're building into the platform around what we call intrinsic security, which is how can we actually build in a truly a trusted platform for your developers and IT. >> I was just going to touch on your point about this, the shortage of IT staff, and how we are addressing that here. The way we are addressing that, is that the IT administrators that are used to administering vSphere can continue to administer this enhanced platform with Kubernetes, the same way they administered the older releases, so they don't have to learn anything new. They are just working the same way. We are not changing any tools, process, technologies. >> So same as it was before? >> Same as before. >> More capability. >> More capability. And developers can come in and they see new capabilities around Kubernetes. So it's a best of both worlds. >> And what was the pain point that you guys are solving? Obviously, the ease of use is critical, obviously, operationally, I get that. As you look at the cloud native developer cycles, infrastructure as code means, as app developers, on the other side, taking advantage of it. What's the real pain point that you guys are solving with vSphere 7. >> So I think it's multiple factors. So first is we've talked about agility a few times, there is DevOps is a real trend inside an IT organizations. They need to be able to build and deliver applications much quicker, they need to be able to respond to the business. And to do that, what they are doing is they need infrastructure that is on demand. So what we're really doing in the core Kubernetes kind of enablement, is allowing that on demand fulfillment of infrastructure, so you get that agility that you need. But it's not just tied to modern applications. It's also all of your existing business applications and your monitoring applications on one platform, which means that you've got a very simple and low cost way of managing large scale IT infrastructure. So that's a huge piece as well. And then I do want to emphasize a couple of other things. We're also bringing in new capabilities for AI and ML applications for SAP HANA databases, where we can actually scale to some of the largest business applications out there. And you have all of the capabilities like the GPU awareness and FPGA awareness that we built into the platform, so that you can truly run this as the fastest accelerated platform for your most extreme applications. So you've got the ability to run those applications, as well as your Kubernetes and Container based application. >> That's the accelerated application innovation piece of the announcement right? >> That's right, yeah. It's quite powerful that we've actually brought in, basically new hardware awareness into the product and expose that to your developers, whether that's through containers or through VMs. >> Krish, I want to get your thoughts on the ecosystem and then the community but I want to just dig into one feature you mentioned. I get the lifestyle improvement, life lifecycle improvement, I get the application acceleration innovation, but the intrinsic security is interesting. Could you take a minute, explain what that is? >> Yeah, so there's a few different aspects. One is looking at how can we actually provide a trusted environment. And that means that you need to have a way that the key management that even your administrator is not able to get keys to the kingdom, as we would call it. You want to have a controlled environment that, some of the worst security challenges inside in some of the companies has been your internal IT staff. So you've got to have a way that you can run a trusted environment independent. We've got vSphere Trust Authority that we released in version seven, that actually gives you a secure environment for actually managing your keys to the kingdom effectively your certificates. So you've got this, continuous runtime. Now, not only that, we've actually gone and taken our carbon black features, and we're actually building in full support for carbon black into the platform. So that you've got native security of even your application ecosystem. >> Yeah, that's been coming up a lot conversations, the carbon black and the security piece. Krish obviously vSphere everywhere having that operating model makes a lot of sense, but you have a lot of touch points, you got cloud, hyper scalars got the edge, you got partners. >> We have that dominant market share on private cloud. We are on Amazon, as you will know, Azure, Google, IBM Cloud, Oracle Cloud. So all the major clouds, there is a vSphere stack running. So it allows customers if you think about it, it allows customers to have the same operating model, irrespective of where their workload is residing. They can set policies, components, security, they set it once, it applies to all their environments across this hybrid cloud, and it's all supported by our VMware Cloud Foundation, which is powered by vSphere 7. >> Yeah, I think having that, the cloud as API based having connection points and having that reliable easy to use is critical operating model. Alright guys, so let's summarize the announcement. What do you guys their takeaway from this vSphere 7, what is the bottom line? What's it really mean? (Paul laughs) >> I think what we're, if we look at it for developers, we are democratizing Kubernetes. We already are in 90% of IT environments out there are running vSphere. We are bringing to every one of those vSphere environments and all of the virtual infrastructure administrators, they can now manage Kubernetes environments, you can you can manage it by simply upgrading your environment. That's a really nice position rather than having independent kind of environments you need to manage. So I think that is one of the key things that's in here. The other thing though, I don't think any other platform out there, other than vSphere that can run in your data center in Google's, in Amazon's, in Microsoft's, in thousands of VCPP partners. You have one hybrid platform that you can run with. And that's got operational benefits, that's got efficiency benefits, that's got agility benefits. >> Great. >> Yeah, I would just add to that and say that, look, we want to meet customers, where they are in their journey. And we want to enable them to make business decisions without technology getting in the way. And I think the announcement that we made today, with vSphere 7, is going to help them accelerate their digital transformation journey, without making trade offs on people, process and technology. And there is more to come. Look, we are laser focused on making our platform the best in the industry, for running all kinds of applications and the best platform for a hybrid and multi cloud. And so you will see more capabilities coming in the future. Stay tuned. >> Well, one final question on this news announcement, which is awesome, vSphere, core product for you guys, if I'm the customer, tell me why it's going to be important five years from now? >> Because of what I just said, it is the only platform that is going to be running across all the public clouds, which will allow you to have an operational model that is consistent across the cloud. So think about it. If you go to Amazon native, and then you have a workload in Azure, you're going to have different tools, different processes, different people trained to work with those clouds. But when you come to VMware and you use our Cloud Foundation, you have one operating model across all these environments, and that's going to be game changing. >> Great stuff, great stuff. Thanks for unpacking that for us. Congratulations on the announcement. >> Thank you. >> vSphere 7, news special report here, inside theCube cCnversation, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music) >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCube. We are having a very special Cube Conversation and kind of the the ongoing unveil, if you will of the new VMware vSphere 7.0 we're going to get a little bit more of a technical deep dive here today we're excited to have longtime Cube alumni, Kit Colbert here, is the VP and CTO of Cloud Platform at VMware. Kit, great to see you. And, and new to theCube, Jared Rosoff. He's a Senior Director of Product Management VMware, and I'm guessing had a whole lot to do with this build. So Jared, first off, congratulations for birthing this new release. And great to have you on board. >> Feels pretty good, great to be here. >> All right, so let's just jump into it. From kind of a technical aspect, what is so different about vSphere 7? >> Yeah, great. So vSphere 7, bakes Kubernetes right into the virtualization platform. And so this means that as a developer, I can now use Kubernetes to actually provision and control workloads inside of my vSphere environment. And it means as an IT admin, I'm actually able to deliver Kubernetes and containers to my developers really easily right on top of the platform I already run. >> So I think we had kind of a sneaking suspicion that might be coming with the acquisition of the FTO team. So really exciting news. And I think Kit you tease it out quite a bit at VMware last year about really enabling customers to deploy workloads across environments, regardless of whether that's on-prem, public cloud, this public cloud, that public cloud. So this really is the realization of that vision. >> It is, yeah. So, we talked at VMworld about project Pacific, this technology preview, and as Jared mentioned, what that was, is how do we take Kubernetes and really build it into vSphere. As you know, we had Hybrid Cloud Vision for quite a while now. How do we proliferate vSphere to as many different locations as possible. Now part of the broader VMware Cloud Foundation portfolio. And as we've gotten more and more of these instances in the cloud on-premises, at the edge, with service providers, there's a secondary question, how do we actually evolve that platform? So it can support not just the existing workloads, but also modern workloads as well. >> All right. So I think you brought some pictures for us a little demo. So why (murmurs) and let's see what it looks like. You guys can keep the demo? >> Narrator: So we're going to start off looking at a developer actually working with the new VMware Cloud Foundation for and vSphere 7. So what you're seeing here is a developer is actually using Kubernetes to deploy Kubernetes. The selfie in watermelon, (all laughing) So the developer uses this Kubernetes declarative syntax where they can describe a whole Kubernetes cluster. And the whole developer experience now is driven by Kubernetes. They can use the coop control tool and all of the ecosystem of Kubernetes API's and tool chains to provision workloads right into vSphere. And so, that's not just provisioning workloads, though. This is also key to the developer being able to explore the things they've already deployed, so go look at, hey, what's the IP address that got allocated to that? Or what's the CPU load on this workload I just deployed. On top of Kubernetes, we've integrated a Container Registry into vSphere. So here we see a developer pushing and pulling container images. And one of the amazing things about this is, from an infrastructure is code standpoint. Now, the developers infrastructure as well as their software is all unified in source control. I can check in, not just my code, but also the description of the Kubernetes environment and storage and networking and all the things that are required to run that app. So now we're looking at sort of a side by side view, where on the right hand side is the developer continuing to deploy some pieces of their application and on the left hand side, we see vCenter. And what's key here is that as the developer deploys new things through Kubernetes, those are showing up right inside of the vCenter console. And so the developer and IT are seeing exactly the same things, the same names, and so this means what a developer calls their IT department and says, "Hey, I got a problem with my database," we don't spend the next hour trying to figure out which VM they're talking about. They got the same name, they see the same information. So what we're going to do is that, we're going to push the the developer screen aside and start digging into the vSphere experience. And what you'll see here is that vCenter is the vCenter you've already known and love, but what's different is that now it's much more application focused. So here we see a new screen inside of vCenter vSphere namespaces. And so these vSphere namespaces represent whole logical applications, like the whole distributed system now as a single object inside of vCenter. And when I click into one of these apps, this is a managed object inside of vSphere. I can click on permissions, and I can decide which developers have the permission to deploy or read the configuration of one of these namespaces. I can hook this into my active directory infrastructure, so I can use the same, corporate credentials to access the system, I tap into all my existing storage. So, this platform works with all of the existing vSphere storage providers. I can use storage policy based management to provide storage for Kubernetes. And it's hooked in with things like DRS, right? So I can define quotas and limits for CPU and memory, and all that's going to be enforced by DRS inside the cluster. And again, as an admin, I'm just using vSphere, but to the developer, they're getting a whole Kubernetes experience out of this platform. Now, vSphere also now sucks in all this information from the Kubernetes environment. So besides, seeing the VMs and things that developers have deployed, I can see all of the desired state specifications, all the different Kubernetes objects that the developers have created, the compute network and storage objects, they're all integrated right inside the vCenter console. And so once again, from a diagnostics and troubleshooting perspective, this data is invaluable, often saves hours, just to try to figure out what we're even talking about more trying to resolve an issue. So, as you can see, this is all baked right into vCenter. The vCenter experience isn't transformed a lot, we get a lot of VI admins who look at this and say, "Where's the Kubernetes?" And they're surprised. They're like, they've been managing Kubernetes all this time, it just looks, it looks like the vSphere experience they've already got. But all those Kubernetes objects, the pods and containers, Kubernetes clusters, load balancer stores, they're all represented right there natively in the vCenter UI. And so we're able to take all of that and make it work for your existing VI admins. >> Well, it's pretty wild. It really builds off the vision that again, I think you kind of outlined Kit teased out at VMworld, which was, the IT still sees vSphere, which is what they want to see, what they're used to seeing, but (murmurs) see Kubernetes and really bringing those together in a unified environment. So that, depending on what your job is and what you're working on, that's what you're going to see in this kind of unified environment. >> Yeah, as the demo showed, (clears throat) it is still vSphere at the center, but now there's two different experiences that you can have interacting with vSphere, Kubernetes base one, which is of course great for developers and DevOps type folks, as well as the traditional vSphere interface API's, which is great for VI admins and IT operations. >> And then it really is interesting too, you tease that a lot. That was a good little preview, people knew they're watching. But you talked about really cloud journey and kind of this bifurcation of kind of classical school apps that are that are running in their classic VMs, and then kind of the modern, kind of cloud native applications built on Kubernetes. And you outlined a really interesting thing that people often talk about the two ends of the spectrum, and getting from one to the other, but not really about kind of the messy middle, if you will, and this is really enabling people to pick where along that spectrum, they can move their workloads or move their apps. >> Yeah, I think we think a lot about it like that, we talk to customers, and all of them have very clear visions on where they want to go, their future state architecture. And that involves embracing cloud and involves modernizing applications. And you know, as you mentioned, it's challenging for them. Because I think what a lot of customers see is this kind of these two extremes either you're here where you are, kind of the old current world, and you got the bright Nirvana future on the far end there. And they believe that the only way to get there is to kind of make a leap from one side to the other, they have to kind of change everything out from underneath you. And that's obviously very expensive, very time consuming, and very error prone as well. There's a lot of things that can go wrong there. And so I think what we're doing differently at VMware is really to your point as you call it, the messy middle, I would say it's more like, how do we offer stepping stones along that journey? Rather than making this one giant leap we had to invest all this time and resources? How can we enable people to make smaller incremental steps, each of which have a lot of business value, but don't have a huge amount of cost? >> And it's really enabling kind of this next gen application, where there's a lot of things that are different about it. But one of the fundamental things is where now the application defines the resources that it needs to operate, versus the resources defining kind of the capabilities what the application can do. And that's where everybody is moving as quickly as makes sense. As you said, not all applications need to make that move, but most of them should, and most of them are, and most of them are at least making that journey. Do you see that? >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that, certainly this is one of the big evolutions we're making in vSphere from, looking historically at how we managed infrastructure, one of the things we enable in vSphere 7, is how we manage applications. So a lot of the things you would do in infrastructure management of setting up security rules or encryption settings, or, your resource allocation, you would do this in terms of your physical and virtual infrastructure, you talk about it in terms of, this VM is going to be encrypted, or this VM is going to have this firewall rule. And what we do in vSphere 7 is elevate all of that to application centric management. So you actually look at an application and say, I want this application to be constrained to this much CPU. Or I want this application to have these security rules on it. And so that shifts the focus of management really up to the application level. >> And like, I can even zoom back a little bit there and say, if you look back, one thing we did was something like vSAN before that people had to put policies on a LAN an actual storage LAN, and a storage array. And then by virtue of a workload being placed on that array, inherited certain policies. And so, vSAN will turn that around allows you to put the policy on the VM. But what Jared is talking about now is that for a modern workload, a modern workloads is not a single VM, it's a collection of different things. You got some containers in there, some VMs, probably distributed, maybe even some on-prem, some on the cloud. And so how do you start managing that more holistically? And this notion of really having an application as a first class entity that you can now manage inside of vSphere is really powerful and very simplified one. >> And why this is important is because it's this application centric point of view, which enables the digital transformation that people are talking about all the time. That's a nice big word, but when the rubber hits the road is how do you execute and deliver applications. And more importantly, how do you continue to evolve them and change them, based on on either customer demands or competitive demands, or just changes in the marketplace. >> Yeah when you look at something like a modern app that maybe has 100 VMs that are part of it, and you take something like compliance. So today, if I want to check if this app is compliant, I got to go look at every individual VM and make sure it's locked down hardened and secured the right way. But now instead, what I can do is I can just look at that one application object inside of vCenter, set the right security settings on that and I can be assured that all the different objects inside of it are going to inherit that stuff. So it really simplifies that. It also makes it so that that admin can handle much larger applications. If you think about vCenter today, you might log in and see 1000 VMs in your inventory. When you log in with vSphere 7, what you see is few dozen applications. So a single admin can manage much larger pool of infrastructure, many more applications than they could before. Because we automate so much of that operation. >> And it's not just the scale part, which is obviously really important, but it's also the rate of change. And this notion of how do we enable developers to get what they want to get done, done, i.e. building applications, while at the same time enabling the IT operations teams to put the right sort of guardrails in place around compliance and security performance concerns, these sorts of elements. And so being by being able to have the IT operations team really manage that logical application at that more abstract level, and then have the developer be able to push in new containers or new VMs or whatever they need inside of that abstraction. It actually allows those two teams to work actually together and work together better. They're not stepping over each other. But in fact, now they can both get what they need to get done, done, and do so as quickly as possible but while also being safe, and in compliance, and so forth. >> So there's a lot more to this, this is a very significant release, right? Again, a lot of foreshadowing, if you go out and read the tea leaves, it's a pretty significant kind of re-architecture of many, many parts of vSphere. So beyond the Kubernetes, kind of what are some of the other things that are coming out in this very significant release? >> Yeah, that's a great question, because we tend to talk a lot about Kubernetes, what was Project Pacific, but it's now just part of vSphere. And certainly, that is a very large aspect of it. But to your point, vSphere 7 is a massive release with all sorts of other features. And so there is a demo here, let's pull up some slides. And we're ready to take a look at what's there. So, outside of Kubernetes, there's kind of three main categories that we think about when we look at vSphere 7. So the first first one is simplified Lifecycle Management. And then really focused on security as a second one, and then applications as well, but both including, the cloud native apps that could fit in the Kubernetes bucket as well as others. And so we go on the first one, the first column there, there's a ton of stuff that we're doing, around simplifying life cycles. So let's go to the next slide here where we can dive in a little bit more to the specifics. So we have this new technology vSphere Lifecycle Management, vLCM. And the idea here is how do we dramatically simplify upgrades, lifecycle management of the ESX clusters and ESX hosts? How do we make them more declarative, with a single image, you can now specify for an entire cluster. We find that a lot of our vSphere admins, especially at larger scales, have a really tough time doing this. There's a lot of ins and outs today, it's somewhat tricky to do. And so we want to make it really, really simple and really easy to automate as well. >> So if you're doing Kubernetes on Kubernetes, I suppose you're going to have automation on automation, because upgrading to the sevens is probably not an inconsequential task. >> And yeah, and going forward and allowing you as we start moving to deliver a lot of this great VCR functionality at a more rapid clip. How do we enable our customers to take advantage of all those great things we're putting out there as well. >> Next big thing you talk about is security. >> Yep >> We just got back from RSA. Thank goodness, we got that show in before all the badness started. But everyone always talks about security is got to be baked in from the bottom to the top. Talk about kind of the the changes in the security. >> So I've done a lot of things around security, things around identity federation, things around simplifying certificate management, dramatic simplifications they're across the board. What I want to focus on here, on the next slide is actually what we call vSphere Trust Authority. And so with that one, what we're looking at here is how do we reduce the potential attack surfaces, and really ensure there's a trusted computing base? When we talk to customers, what we find is that they're nervous about a lot of different threats, including even internal ones, right? How do they know all the folks that work for them can be fully trusted. And obviously, if you're hiring someone, you somewhat trust them. How do you implement the concept of least privilege. >> Jeff: Or zero trust (murmurs) >> Exactly. So they idea with trust authority that we can specify a small number of physical ESX hosts that you can really lock down ensure a fully secure, those can be managed by a special vCenter Server, which is in turn very locked down, only a few people have access to it. And then those hosts and that vCenter can then manage other hosts that are untrusted and can use attestation to actually prove that, okay, this untrusted host haven't been modified, we know they're okay, so they're okay to actually run workloads or they're okay to put data on and that sort of thing. So it's this kind of like building block approach to ensure that businesses can have a very small trust base off of which they can build to include their entire vSphere environment. >> And then the third kind of leg of the stool is, just better leveraging, kind of a more complex asset ecosystem, if you will, with things like FPGAs and GPUs, and kind of all of the various components that power these different applications which now the application can draw the appropriate resources as needed. So you've done a lot of work there as well. >> Yeah, there's a ton of innovation happening in the hardware space, as you mentioned, all sorts of accelerators coming out. We all know about GPUs, and obviously what they can do for machine learning and AI type use cases, not to mention 3D rendering. But FPGAs, and all sorts of other things coming down the pike as well there. And so what we found is that as customers try to roll these out, they have a lot of the same problems that we saw in the very early days of virtualization, i.e. silos of specialized hardware that different teams were using. And what you find is, all the things we found before you find very low utilization rates, inability to automate that, inability to manage that well, putting security and compliance and so forth. And so this is really the reality that we see in most customers and it's funny because, and sometimes you think, "Wow, shouldn't we be past this?" As an industry should we have solved this already, we did this with virtualization. But as it turns out, the virtualization we did was for compute and then storage network. But now we really need to virtualize all these accelerators. And so that's where this bit fusion technology that we're including now with vSphere, really comes to the forefront. So if you see in the current slide, we're showing here, the challenges that just these separate pools of infrastructure, how do you manage all that? And so if the we go to the next slide, what we see is that, with that fusion, you can do the same thing that we saw with compute virtualization, you can now pool all these different silos infrastructure together. So they become one big pool of GPUs of infrastructure that anyone in an organization can use. We can, have multiple people sharing a GPU, we can do it very dynamically. And the great part of it is that it's really easy for these folks to use. They don't even need to think about it, in fact, integrates seamlessly with their existing workflows. >> So it's free, it's pretty cheap, because the classifications of the assets now are much, much larger, much varied and much more workload specific right. That's really the opportunity slash challenge there. >> They are a lot more diverse And so like, a couple other things just, I don't have a slide on it, but just things we're doing to our base capabilities, things around DRS and vMotion. Really massive evolutions there as well to support a lot of these bigger workloads, right. So you look at some of the massive SAP HANA or Oracle databases, and how do we ensure that vMotion can scale to handle those, without impacting their performance or anything else there? Making DRS smarter about how it does load balancing, and so forth. So a lot of the stuff not just kind of brand new, cool new accelerator stuff, but it's also how do we ensure the core as people have already been running for many years, we continue to keep up with the innovation and scale there as well. >> All right. So Jared I give you the last word. You've been working on this for a while. There's a whole bunch of admins that have to sit and punch keys. What do you tell them? What should they be excited about? What are you excited for them in this new release? >> I think what I'm excited about is how IT can really be an enabler of the transformation of modern apps. I think today, you look at all of these organizations, and what ends up happening is, the app team ends up sort of building their own infrastructure on top of IT infrastructure. And so, now, I think we can shift that story around. I think that there's an interesting conversation that a lot of IT departments and app dev teams are going to be having over the next couple of years about how do we really offload some of these infrastructure tasks from the dev team? Make you more productive, give you better performance, availability, disaster recovery and these kinds of capabilities. >> Awesome. Well, Jared, congratulation and Kit both of you for getting the release out. I'm sure it was a heavy lift. And it's always good to get it out in the world and let people play with it. And thanks for for sharing a little bit more of a technical deep dive into this ton more resources for people that didn't want to go down into the weeds. So thanks for stopping by. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Alright, he's Jared, he's Kit, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCube. We're in the Palo Alto Studios. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and welcome to a special Cube Conversation. I'm Stu Miniman, and we're digging into VMware vSphere 7 announcement. We've had conversations with some of the executives some of the technical people, but we know that there's no better way to really understand the technology than to talk to some of the practitioners that are using it. So really happy to have joined me on the program. I have Philip Buckley-Mellor, who is an infrastructure designer with British Telecom joining me digitally from across the pond. Phil, thanks so much for joining us. >> Nice too. >> Alright, so Phil, let's start of course, British Telecom, I think most people know, you know what BT is and it's, really sprawling company. Tell us a little bit about, your group, your role and what's your mandate. >> Okay, so, my group is called service platforms. It's the bit of BT that services all of our multi millions of our customers. So we have broadband, we have TV, we have mobile, we have DNS and email systems. And it's all about our customers. It's not a B2B part of BT, you're with me? We specifically focus on those kind of multi million customers that we've got in those various services. And in particular, my group we do infrastructure. we really do from data center all the way up to really about boot time or so we'll just pass boot time, and the application developers look after that stage and above. >> Okay, great, we definitely going to want to dig in and talk about that, that boundary between the infrastructure teams and the application teams. But let's talk a little bit first, we're talking about VMware. So, how long has your organization been doing VMware and tell us, what you see with the announcement that VMware is making for vSphere 7? >> Sure, well, I mean, we've had really great relationship with VMware for about 12, 13 years, something like that. And it's a absolutely key part of our infrastructure. It's written throughout BT, really, in every part of our operations, design, development, and the whole ethos of the company is based around a lot of VMware products. And so one of the challenges that we've got right now is application architectures are changing quite significantly at the moment, And as you know, in particular with serverless, and with containers and a whole bunch of other things like that. We're very comfortable with our ability to manage VMs and have been for a while. We currently use extensively we use vSphere NSXT, VROPs, login site, network insight and a whole bunch of other VMware constellation applications. And our operations teams know how to use that they know how to optimize, they know how to pass the plan, and (murmurs). So that's great. And that's been like that for half a decade at least, we've been really, really confident with our ability to deal with VMware environments. And along came containers and like, say, multi cloud as well. And what we were struggling with was the inability to have a single pane of glass, really on all of that, and to use the same people and the same processes to manage a different kind of technology. So we, we've been working pretty closely with VMware on a number of different containerization products. For several years now, I've worked really closely with the vSphere integrated containers, guys in particular, and now with the Pacific guys, with really the ideal that when we bring in version seven and the containerization aspects of version seven, we'll be in a position to have that single pane of glass to allow our operations team to really barely differentiate between what's a VM and what's a container. That's really the Holy Grail. So we'll be able to allow our developers to develop, our operations team to deploy and to operate, and our designers to see the same infrastructure, whether that's on-premises, cloud or off-premises, and be able to manage the whole piece in that respect. >> Okay, so Phil, really interesting things you walk through here, you've been using containers in a virtualized environment for a number of years, want to understand and the organizational piece just a little bit, because it sounds great, I manage all the environment, but, containers are a little bit different than VMs. if I think back, from an application standpoint, it was, let's stick it in a VM, I don't need to change it. And once I spin up a VM, often that's going to sit there for, months, if not years, as opposed to, I think about a containerization environment. It's, I really want to pool of resources, I'm going to create and destroy things all the time. So, bring us inside that organizational piece. How much will there needs to be interaction and more interaction or change in policies between your infrastructure team and your app dev team? >> Well, yes, me absolutely right, that's the nature and the timescales that we're talking about between VMs and containers is wildly different. As you say, we probably almost certainly have Vms in place now that were in place in 2018 certainly I imagine, and haven't really been touched. Whereas as you say, VMs and a lot of people talk about spinning them all up all the time. There are parts of architecture that require that, in particular, the very client facing bursty stuff, does require spinning up and spinning down pretty quickly. But some of our some of our other containers do sit around for weeks, if not months, really does depend on the development cycle aspects of that, but the heartbeat that we've really had was just visualizing it. And there are a number of different products out there that allow you to see the behavior of your containers and understand the resource requirements that they are having at any given moment. Allies troubleshoot and seven. But they need any problems, the new things that we we will have to get used to. And also it seems that there's an awful lot of competing products, quite a Venn diagram of in terms of functionality and user abilities to do that. So again coming back to being able to manage through vSphere. And to be able to have a list of VMs on alongside is a list of containers and to be able to use policies to define how they behave in terms of their networking, to be able to essentially put our deployments on rails by using in particular tag based policies, means that we can take the onus of security, we can take the onus of performance management and capacity management away from the developers who don't really have a lot of time, and they can just get on with their job, which is to develop new functionality, and help our customers. So that means then we have to be really responsible about defining those policies, and making sure that they're adhered to. But again, we know how to do that with the VMs through vSphere. So the fact that we can actually apply that straight away, just with slightly different compute unit, is really what we're talking about here is ideal, and then to be able to extend that into multiple clouds as well, because we do use multiple clouds where (murmurs) and as your customers, and we're between them is an opportunity that we can't do anything other than be excited about (murmurs) >> Yeah, Phil, I really like how you described really the changing roles that are happening there in your organization need to understand, right? There's things that developers care about the they want to move fast, they want to be able to build new things and there's things that they shouldn't have to worry about. And, you know, we talked about some of the new world and it's like, oh, can the platform underneath this take care of it? Well, there's some things platforms take care of, there's some things that the software or your team is going to need to understand. So maybe if you could dig in a little bit, some of those, what are the drivers from your application portfolio? What is the business asking of your organization that's driving this change? And being one of those tail winds pushing you towards, Kubernetes and the vSphere 7 technologies? >> Well, it all comes down to the customers, right? Our customers want new functionality. They want new integrations, they want new content, they want better stability and better performance and our ability to extend or contracting capacity as needed as well. So there will be ultimate challenges that we want to give our customers the best possible experience of our products and services. So we have to have address that really from a development perspective, it's our developers have the responsibility to, design and deploy those. So, in infrastructure, we have to act as a firm, foundation, really underneath all of that. That allows them to know that what they spend their time and develop and want to push out to our customers is something that can be trusted is performant. We understand where the capacity requirements are coming from in the short term, and in the long term for that, and he's secure as well, obviously, is a big aspect to it. And so really, we're just providing our developers with the best possible chance of giving our customers what will hopefully make them delighted. >> Great, Phil, you've mentioned a couple of times that you're using public clouds as well as, your VMware firm. Want to make sure I if you can explain a little bit a couple of things. Number one is, when it comes to your team, especially your infrastructure team, how much are they in involved with setting up some of the basic pieces or managing things like performance in the public cloud. And secondly, when you look at your applications, or some of your clouds, some of your applications hybrid going between the data center and the public cloud. And I haven't talked to too many customers that are doing applications that just live in any cloud and move things around. But you know, maybe if you could clarify those pieces as to, what cloud really means to your organization and your applications? >> Sure, well, I mean, tools. Cloud allows us to accelerate development, which is nice because it means we don't have to do on-premises capacity lifts for new pieces of functionality are so we can initially build in the cloud and test in the cloud. But very often, applications really make better sense, especially in the TV environment where people watch TV all the time. I mean, yes, there are peak hours and lighter hours of TV watching. Same goes for broadband really. But we generally were well more than an eight hour application profile. So what that allows us to do then is to have applications that are, well, it makes sense. We run them inside our organization where we have to run them in our organization for, data protection reasons or whatever, then we can do that as well. But where we say, for instance, we have a boxing match on. And we're going to be seeing an enormous spike in the amount of customers that want to sign up into our auto journey to allow them to view that and to gain access to that, well, why would you spend a lot of money on servers just for that level of additional capacity? So we do absolutely have hybrid applications, not sorry, hybrid blocks, we have blocks of sub applications, dozens of them really to support our platform. And what you would see is that if you were to look at our full application structure for one of the platforms, I mentioned, that some of the some of those application blocks have to run inside some can run outside and what we want to be able to do is to allow our operations team to define that, again, by policies to where they run, and to, have a system that allows us to transparently see where they're running, how they're running, and the implications of those decisions so that we can tune those maybe in the future as well. And that way, we best serve our customers. We got to get our customers yeah, what they need. >> All right, great, Phil, final question I have for you, you've been through a few iterations of looking at VMs containers, public cloud, what what advice would you give your peers with the announcement of vSphere 7 and how they can look at things today in 2020 versus what they might have looked at, say a year or two ago? >> Well, I'll be honest, I was a little bit surprised by vSphere 7. We knew that VMware will working on trying to make containers on the same level, both from a management deployment perspective as VMs. I mean, they're called VMware after all right? And we knew that they were looking at that. But I was surprised by just quite how quickly they've managed to almost completely reinvent the application, really. It's, you know, if you look at the whole Tansy stuff and the Mission Control stuff, I think a lot of people were blown away by just quite how happy VMware were to reinvent themselves from an application perspective, and to really leap forward. And this is, between version six and seven. I've been following these since version three, at least. And it's an absolutely revolutionary change in terms of the overall architecture. The aims to, to what they want to achieve with the application. And luckily, the nice thing is, is that if you're used to version six is not that big a deal, it's really not that big a deal to move forward at all, it's not such a big change to process and training and things like that. But my word, there's an awful lot of work underneath that, underneath the covers. And I'm really excited. And I think all the people in my position should really use take it as an opportunity to revisit what they can achieve with, in particular with vSphere, and with in combination with NSXT, it's quite hard to put into place unless you've seen the slides about it and unless you've seen the product, just how revolutionary the version seven is compared to previous versions, which have kind of evolved through a couple of years. So yeah, I think I'm really excited about it. And I know a lot of my peers or the companies that I speak with quite often are very excited about seven as well. So yeah, I'm really excited about though the whole base >> Well, Phil, thank you so much. Absolutely no doubt this is a huge move for VMware, the entire company and their ecosystem rallying around, help move to the next phase of where application developers and infrastructure need to go. Phil Buckley joining us from British Telecom. I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you so much for watching theCube. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high-tech coverage it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE two stages, three days of coverage, our tenth year here at the VMworld show. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host for this segment is Bobby Allan. And welcome back, two of our CUBE alumni. >> How are you? >> As I said back in 2010 we didn't even know what a CUBE alumni was. People were trying to figure out what we're doing but now we have thousands of them and both of these gentlemen have been on the program, a few times. >> Thanks for having us back. >> You're welcome. So, first, over we have Ajay Patel, who I believe was doing another filming evening with our crew-- >> Absolutely >> Earlier today. >> The Accenture Innovation Center. >> Ah, excellent. Beautiful building Accenture has here in San Francisco. >> Ajay: Beautiful (mumbles) >> One of the other benefits of being back in San Francisco is we brought in people and it's really easy to get in and out and do other things in the Valley. But Ajay is the senior vice president and general manager of the cloud provider software business unit inside VMware. And one of his partners is Rackspace. We have Peter FitzGibbon who is the vice president of Product Alliances, with for mentioned Rackspace. >> Yeah, super to be back in San Francisco. It's a great change from Vegas. >> Yeah, you know, there is some debate in the community of course it's a little more expensive here in San Francisco and there are other logistic challenges. We're excited to be back here and yeah, really excited to be talking with both of you. Peter, let's start, you know Rackspace has had a long, long partnership with VMware. When I remember back to like VMware Environments Hosted it's like, Rackspace was the one with the lion's share in that market. And, you know, Rackspace has gone through a lot of changes in the last 10 years that we've been doing this coverage. When I think about multi cloud, all of these environments you've got a nice perspective on this and lots of customers you've worked with. So, give us the update on what you're hearing from customers and your relationship with VMware. >> Yeah, so, 20-year history with VMware that we're very proud of. I would say it's almost being re-birthed in the last two years though. Two years ago, we were one of the first VMware Cloud Verified partners. We launched our VMware Cloud VMware Cloud Foundation Private Cloud. We added that about six months later in customer data centers. We're now one of the major partners of VMware Cloud AWS >> Ajay: VMware Cloud AWS yep. >> And that's one of the areas that we're continuing to expand upon. We announced some new services this week, specifically around VMware Cloud AWS or support of HDX, both for migrations for ongoing support as well as a number of, what we call Rackspace service blocks. Which are additional manage services that we are applying, specifically for VMware Cloud and AWS. So, exciting times at Rackspace and VMware continues to be a look, a major part of our portfolio. >> Ajay: And thank you for all the support, Peter. >> Yeah, so Ajay, bring us up to speed of what's happening in your space you know, a lot of attention gets paid, you know Every time, you know, I saw Sanjay Poon, up on stage at the Goolge clould event, and of course the AWS partnership has been one of the biggest stories in all of tech, for the last couple of years. And that's been extending to, you know first it was like, wait, you know Rackspace has data centers and many of your other partners have data centers, but how did these all, play together and how does the VMware software pull them all together. >> So Stu, I think, you and I have been talking about this world of hybrid multi and we've been arguing, whether it's just a transitionary stage, or here to stay. Hopefully that debate's over, right? Hybrid's a new reality, multi cloud's a new reality and we talk about these hyper scales but you know, Rackspace and many of my VCP partners they've been longstanding in this journey with us. I don't know if you caught Pat's keynote? We demonstrated, that we have over 10 000 data centers through our VCPP network and Rackspace being one of our top 10 partners. So you start, to start seeing this mix of VMware everywhere. Whether it's trough our service provider cloud the customer manage cloud or even a hyper scale VMware cloud. You now have the ubiquitous VMware infrastructure to play with. >> At some point it's just cloud. (chattering) >> That is a great point, when I talk to customers most of them, they have a cloud strategy it's usually not a hybrid or a multi or all these things. Here's the nuance I want to, you know, ask for a second then I definitely want Bobby to jump in with what he's been talking to customers about. You know, hybrid cloud is a reality because customers have their own data centers and they have public cloud. The ideal of multi cloud, customers have multiple clouds, but, you know, one of the definitions I put out there is, multi cloud exists when the multi cloud solution is more valuable than the sum of the pieces. And I'm not sure that we're quite there yet. I think we're starting to move down that path. But what are you both seeing? And does that resonate with what you see today? >> Yeah like, all of our customers have workloads in multiple locations and trying to provide the assessments of where to put the right workloads at the right time is one of the key values that we hold dear. And before we ever talk about where we're going to but a workload we assess whether, what our clients environments is and determine, maybe this is an AWS workload maybe this is a WMS workload maybe this workload really belongs in the data center for, due to laws of the lands laws of gravity and physics. >> And I think, what's happening, really is any application, typically choosing a platform or the cloud service that's driving the decision. Collectively what ends up happening because of that, you are in multiple clouds. So, I think what's it's a result of the reality that applications are driving location and platform choices and the way to drive consistency is trying to pick a few common things whether it's kubernetes as a platform or VMware, right? Those are a way to, kind of, unify these desperate choices that are made individually. That are collectively making each of our customers multi cloud, right? >> Ajay, I want to piggyback on that because you talked about the applications driving a lot of the choices, when applications teams in my experience are, kind of, making the choices they don't care about a centralized strategy and obviously, this very powerful partnership can support multiple places and ways around your workloads. How do you lead the witness, a little bit towards simplification and just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. >> Yes, so I think what's happening from our perspective is depending on which side of the IT house you're at if you're part of the core IT that's running and maintaining mission critical systems you're really looking for something that's reliable, performance scalable, secure. And you, maybe, looking at a hardware refresher looking at your data center strategy and you're looking to migrate that workload. You're not really looking to re-change the app just because it's cool. >> Bobby: Right. >> If you're part of digital transformation effort you're looking to say, okay how do I get something out there quickly? >> Bobby: Right. >> How do I integrate on the average my data and application assets while leveraging cloud services? >> Bobby: Right. So, we're seeing this tension in some ways where the, kind of, net new is really pushing the envelope of cloud with self service elasticity, new capability while as the old guard is like I got to keep my running business, running keep it secure. And how do you bridge these two worlds and bring them together? We call it DevOps and, you know, ITA and the traditional, kind of new developer. Reality is, you're trying to bring the two worlds on a common platform. Whether it's VM's or containers and so the exciting part for us is, how do we unify? How do we deliver this experience and give them the choice, where it makes more sense. And blur the lines between public and private. Those are just locations and makes more sense for your customer or your application that you can drive. >> Bobby: Right, excellent. >> We find ourselves in those conversations, all the time trying to bridge two sides of the equation at a customer and trying to get them together on a uniformed strategy and weighing the pros and cons of different locations or different workloads. So, it's not easy, it's not a challenge of course. >> Peter, I'd love you to bring us inside some of those VMware on AWS customers because, you know, some of the first customers I talked to, it was, you know, I'm a VMware shop and there's a part of your group that's like oh my gosh, I can't change and this was a driver saying hey, you don't need to, we can bring you along. But, the value, once again needs to be Oh hey, I need to do some innovative things I want to be able to access some of those cool amazing services that, you know everybody is providing on a daily basis. So, you know, are you seeing that progression are there any interesting use cases that are coming out? >> Progression is the word, we could call it progressive transformation inside Rackspace. Like, you're a VMware customer let's bring you ion the journey towards public cloud. And let's help you leverage those address services. So, we find ourselves in a great position where a very large number of engineers, that support our native AWS workloads, we've brought those two groups together from our VMware expertise and address expertise. So when a customer lands on a VMware address I consider it a failure, if they haven't transformed part of the application in three months. If they're not really consuming those native AWS services. And that's what we really try inject. It's like, get our AWS engineers looking at those workloads let's start consuming those native services and that's what we're finding really exciting about how customers are starting to adopt and starting to plug and play into some of those services. >> Oh I look at it, as you know, you'll see a team Sanjay called it M&MS, migrate and modernize but a part of the migrate is often modernize your infrastructure first by putting on a modern cloud platform. And then modernize your application using cloud services. How it says, it's M-M and M, right, to follow through because it's not just about lifting and shifting keeping the old crap as it is. You got to really start to look at how do you drive innovation drive your Cube to a better place. So that you can operate it more affectively and then modernize for application results. And your service blocks, are really catered to helping that customers. So you can talk a little bit about how they're building the services that compliment our offer. >> Yeah, so our service blocks is... In the past, we offered them one big block manage service to a customer. We realized, let's decompose that and offer the customer what they need at a specific point in time. So we, think about Lego blocks, where at some point you may need, just some support or at some point you might need some architectural services and design and other times you might say cost optimization. That sort of stuff. So over time, we're adding on these Lego blocks if you will, to add a customer, to give them what they need at the point they need it, and not more. So, it's an exciting concept that every month, we're adding more services. We launched a Rackspace manage security service block today specifically for VMware cloud. So, we continue to add these and provide incremental value. >> I want to ask you a little bit of a controversial question. There's a saying, pioneers take the arrows but settlers take the land. >> Right >> So, if I'm a technology leader how do I embrace all this newness without getting shot, partnering with your firms. >> So, you know, we always say lock-ins bad but reality is, we always choose to reject technology platforms. And if you're a VMware customer I hate to say it, you're running on VMware infrastructure you have VMware ecosystem, you have VMware run books you have VMware partners, managing your on-prem assets what if I could you a path forward on any cloud of your choice without having to change any of your day-tot-day operation while leveraging the innovation future. What is the safest path for you, Mr Customer? And so, in this world, you can think of us being laggard in some sense. Because we're not pushing them to a single destination. We're giving them that choice, leveraging the strength. I think the innovative part that we've done today has really brought containers and VM'S in a single solution. We talked about containers killing VM'S two years ago, right? You know, VMware was getting trouble with docker VMware was going to be trouble with Openstack. Where are those two companies today and where is VMware? It's about simplifying for the customer a common solution. And we're taking those choices away and making this easy. Giving partners who can help them on their journey. So, I would say we're the safer choice. >> Okay >> That will be my response. >> Peter, we're not going to ask you about Openstack. (Giggles) >> I'm really back to VMware, it's working progress. (Giggles) >> Interesting point, the settlers right? At this point VMSware and AWS is two years old I think that first year, what was definitely some pioneers our there. But now I think we're really in there where the settlers are coming on and we're seeing large-scale adoption in the platform and now that VMware is offering more and more services, natively we can add more those managed services and help those customers really transform and not worry about the underlying IS that's rock-solid at this point. >> Peter, I would like you to get into it a little bit, kind of, the containerization and the kubernetes, you know, Docker, obviously a lot of hype, but containerization that's hugely important, you know a lot of the keynote this morning was talking about cloud native. I talked to lots of customers, you know there's some that, yes, they will want the VMware journey but many of them say, well, If I'm going to cloud I can just use containers. Why would I have the overhead of VM's? when cloud founders was originally created it was not for that type of environment. So where does that fit into, you know your world containers? >> Yeah, we actually launched some more services on that today as well, some more professional services and manage services, so safely around advanced kubernetes support, across all our platforms so this isn't just a VMware announcement this is on AWS, Microsoft, Badger and Google. So, another exciting progression, or hybrid could story and making investments in those resources to deliver kubernetes. We also launched a cloud native service block today, as well, that is really giving customers access to deep engineering skills and giving them cloud reliability engineers that can help them transform their workloads and get them ready for the cloud. >> I think, for us, if you... Project (mumbles) sorry tan zoo as a solution, and project pacific. Our two marquee announcements we made this week and if you look at the way we're focusing on the bull run manage aspects of the full life cycle and our active participation in the kubernetes community we're starting the beginnings of what I felt, like Java in 2000 when I was at BA, right? Where Weblogic and Java was the runtime for rolling and building new apps. Kubernetes and containers are the new runtime for building distributed apps across Cal platforms. And we're in this early journey and we are uniquely in opposition with the combination of pivotal for build. With project Pacific we're bringing containers into V&V-sphere, so VM's and containers become first class. Trough your point, we demonstrated eight percent performance improvement over bare metal on a V-sphere container based solution. Starting to engineer, based on a key scheduling work that we do in the kernel and in the hypervisor we're driving that deep into the kubernetes platform into the core platform itself. And then manage is going to be the new interesting bit. What is that control panel that everyone is going to fight over? And the manage services partner can help them choose. So, I think the battleground is more and more going to manage I think we secured our base with the runtime. And the bill will be about choice. (Mumbles) >> And Tan zoo is music to our ears we can now, again, focus on what's the additional manage services and service-- >> How do you help customers build apps? And change the engineering culture is what you provide. We just give you the runtime across any of these clouds. >> We want to help everyone, transform applications also transform the culture and how they do their business all that rapport-- >> Engineering transformation is a big one. Sajay transformation we talked about, internally for us VMware, same with our customers. You got to change the mindset of how you build the applications. In this container service based architecture >> Agree, agree >> What else is keeping folks up at night? That you talk to? Love to know that, just hot tail. >> Nothing keeps me up at night it's an exciting world we live in so loaded question, what excites me? What excites me is the progression, that VMware is making and the announcement Lydon video and GPU access link I think, early next year. I think that can be another wave of VMC adoptions. So, not keep me up at night but keep me interesting and excited. >> I think to that point I can build on what Pat said about tech for good, I mean we have a joined customer feeding America, right? We're now taking technology and making it available so that, you know, the 60 000 plus distribution centers they have, are up all the time. They're not even worried about infrastructure. They can focus on feeding the cause which is, I think 47 million people being fed. It's scary, right? >> Well, we want to bring it back to the organization of the discussion, you said you're helping customers with because we are worried you know, about how racking, stacking, configuring how doing all of those things, you know how do you help them? I talked to a number of customers at this show and they said look, my roles in my organization is still hardware to find And it's tough to move into a software role but if I want to get into the6 tech for good I need to be able to uplift my skills uplift my organizations, yeah. >> It's difficult, right? Organizational changes differ for every company but as part of the digital transformation there is also organizational transformation so we're having customers think about what is the progression form a VMware administrator to a DevOps-- >> Or cloud, I bet. (Giggles) >> It's not easy, it's your short answer on that. >> I think for us, is really starting to drive the cultural chance providing the tools and bring the self service in where they can be a coach, right? Be the trailblazer, who can come in and help change your organization. Teach them how to do it right. Not everyone will get there, hopefully bulk of the organization can shift right. >> Peter, I want to give you the final word you know, your partners and customers to understand. Take aways from VMware 2019. >> Yeah, it's great to be here, as usual thanks for having us. I think, Tan Zoo is really exciting. The progression that we're making with adding service blocks on top of VMware and AWS and or other hybrid cloud announcements. So, great to be here, but the Tan Zoo is kind of the story of the show. >> For me, it's a VMware is here to stay. We want to be, be have been, your strategic partner for the last decade. We're here to stay for the next decade. We're going to help you solve these hard complex problems and give you the choice you need. Across a broader ecosystem of partners and solutions. so, very excited to be here and to deliver that value. >> And Peter, thank you so much for joining us again, Bobby Allen, thank you for co-hosting. I'm Stu Miniman and as always thank you for watching theCUBE.

>> Live from Washington DC, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Public Sector Summit. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone to AWS Public Sector Summit here in our nation's capital, Washington DC. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, John Furrier. We are joined by Daniel Castro. He is the Vice President Information Technology and Innovation Foundation, a think tank based here in town. Welcome, Daniel. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, the theme of this conference is all about modernizing government IT. I want to just start by asking a think tank analyst, how do you define IT modernization, particularly as it relates to the public sector? >> Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about how we've had this evolution, and how we do egovernment, right? And we've talked about the stages of egovernment before, for a long time, and it used to be that you had this very basic model. You put some information online, and then you had the transactional model, so you have some communication. Then you'd have something that was a little more interactive. So, maybe you get some more back and forth there. And now I think we're getting into this new model of egovernment. This next stage where we can possibly start automating a lot of more. We can start using AI. We can use IoT, and I think that's where there's a lot of excitement now because there's so much possibility with what we can do with government that didn't exist before, even five years ago. And so, to me, it's exciting to see things like where you can ask Alexa to do something with government, and you can start seeing this next wave that didn't exist even a few years ago. >> What kind of efficiencies do you see, because that seems to be a theme, using data, undifferienciated heavy-lifting tasks, where do you see the use cases in government for being more efficient with cloud and data? >> Well, I have a little bit of experience in government. I used to work in government, and one thing that a lot of people will tell you is that there's a lot of really boring things that you have to do when you're in government. There's a lot of really exciting things, really great things you can do when you're in government that's what attracts, I think, great people. But what I see is the possibility to take a lot of those boring activities out of government. The paperwork associated with your leave, and filing a claim, or all these things that people don't like, to me, that's the possibility. Can we get rid of the boring part of government and just have the really value-added part. And with data, I think that's where we're moving 'cause it's not about moving papers around and tracking. Government has a big information problem, it's can we really get to the core problem, which is the analytics, the decision-making, the problem solving. And that to me, you see so many companies on the floor that are saying, we'll take care of the security problem for you. We'll take care of the storage problem for you. we'll take care of the applications, and leave you to do that you actually wanted to do when you came to government. >> Get rid of the manual tasks, and leaving more room for the creative. And as you said, the analytical, the problem-solving. >> Right. >> Well the thing I want to ask you is that I'm old enough to see the original internet wave. And the US did a great job under the Department of Commerce when the internet came out, the domain name system. They worked internationally with ICANN, variety of other organizations, and so you had this nice growth of the internet. Now it just seems like it's highly accelerated, you got Facebook, you got YouTube. You got all these things going on. You have Amazon, these big whales of tech companies. There's a huge tech-lash going on. There's a lot of tech for good as well. So, we were just talking in our last segment, the pile for tech for good opportunities is a lot higher than the tech for bad, but everyone's focused on the bad actors right now. These are private companies. These aren't public entities, Facebook, YouTube, Amazon so they can't arrest anyone. They can't, they do what they do, right? >> Right. >> So where's the new way to get this under control? What's the think tank's perspectve? What's the community perspective in DC around this? >> What strikes me is the level of optism we see around technology has changed significantly, and part of that's driven by the tech-lash. If you go back to the '90s, people were excited about the potential of the internet, and what it could mean. We've done some analysis looking at even just the reporting in the media. We did sentiment anaylysis of how technology's being described, not just IT, but technology overall and innovation overall. You see a downward trend in the last 20 years. It's been steady, and it's been faster in the last 10 years. That affects, I think, the ability to get the public on board with new technology. It affects the ability of government to say, we're using technology for these new purposes. And it affects the policies. When you mentioned ICANN, the Departmemt of Commerce said We're going to do something fundamentally different with the internet, we're going to help create it, but keep our hands off it That idea was radical and new and exciting and innovative. Now we have all these new technologies like whether it's Jones or IoT or AI, but we don't have government necessarily saying, this is exciting and new and maybe we should do things different this time. We should think about a creative way of ensuring that we are not in the way of innovation. That we're putting in good guard rails to protect people, and instead they want to do kind of the old model, of let's regulate the technology, or focus on how it can go wrong instead of really focusing on how it might go right. >> Well, I got to say, we need more think tanks like what you guys are doing because my personal feeling, not being a very political person, and being from California, is you can't regulate what you don't understand. So if you don't understand it, then get out of the way, and a lot of people that I see in DC, certainly in elected official sides, they really don't know what they're talking about. They're mostly either lawyers or not tech savvy. And the ones that are tech savvy seem to be kind of oppressed, like where are they? Where's the revolution? >> So what's the answer then? I mean they... (laughs) >> Well, I think we have to educate more about what the potential is. When you see people start to understand, here's the technology, here's the benefits. But these are the 10 things we need to do to get there. They understand they need to do more. The problem is, some of the technology, it is kind of confusing to policy makers. Do you try to explain what machine learning is to a 70 year old elected official, and not all of them are familiar with it. Some of them are, but you look at the, Congress has an AI caucus. Congress also has a blockchain caucus, which do you think is bigger? >> Blockchain. >> Blockchain, of course, right? Because people think there's money there, it's immutable. But AI's going to be the one-- >> Infrastructure dynamic around supply chain. >> Yeah. >> Which is a data challenge because now you got encryption, and you have all kinds of immutability. So again, this is an exciting time but what do you do? Do you jump in? Nurture it? Regulate it? >> I think government, what traditionally people think about government is the lag around technology. What I like about this conference is, I think it'll show that government can be the leader in technology. When government's the leader in technology, it de-risks it for both the private sector and the rest of government. So it can say, we're going to be on the cutting edge. We're going to show how it can be done, and by being an early adopter, we can also help shape the technology. So when people are concerned about bias in AI or something, if government's an early adopter, they can help address some of those problems whether it's by making their own data sets available or showing-- >> When government is experimenting with the algorithms and then makes some mistakes, it builds more bias into it. It has more consequences, it feels like that at least. >> I think that's true, but I think the difference is nobody expects the private sector to necessarily put citizen's interest first, but that is government's role. Government's role is to say, how can we make our community better? So when it has a primary seat at the table, it can help shape the technology to get to those types of concerns. Now, of course you have to have a good government. So it's also important that we elect people who are excited about technology and protecting all people. The CIA, and now the DoD with Jedi, and a variety of other contracts going on, I think can be that leader again. If you look at the CIA is done, I think that is a great use case example, a leader gestating since 2013. DoD now on it. My friend, John Markoff, former New York Times columnist, wrote a book, What the Door Mouse Said. It's about how the hippy counter culture created the computer revolution, really from the build-up of technology around government funding to institutions and academic institutions. The counterculture developed, aka, the computer revolution. So I see a similar thing kind of happening now. It feels like you have all this tech out there. You've got this counterculture of people saying, why is there all this red tape? Why can't we use this data? Why is LinkedIn a site load of data? Why is Facebook doing what they're doing? So, I think the question should be asked, the question is, how should we take that position as the government to foster innovation, curb the bad, accelerate good, reward good. So the incentives could be digital I'd love to get your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I think that's a good point. What I see, we had a panel this morning on open data, and one of the big themes there was around the idea of collaboration. It's about partnerships between government and industry whether it's government providing the data, or industry providing the data, and also focusing on specific problems. I think that's how you get out of the siloed approach which is the concern that you have one federal agency, for example, focusing on, this is my problem. And I have the blinders on and not looking how it affects everyone else, and arguably that's the critique that a lot of people have about companies, that they're focused on one problem. They're not looking at the effects they have on the rest of the economy or society. I think you have collaberation on specific problems whether it's the opioid crisis or health care, or energy, then you start getting people from lots of different backgrounds saying, here's the resources we can bring to bear on these problems, and here's how we're going to fix it, and here's how we're going to do things differently. A lot of that gets to, do you have data that you can share? Do you have IT infrastructure that's interoperable? And do you have just kind of an organizational structure, that allows and encourages that type of collaboration? So I think when you keep kind of pushing it then, saying this is the future we want. These are the problems we're going to solve. Then it forces, even governments that are traditionally rigid to start re-orienting around new ways of solving problems. >> Well you know, open source software really could be an indicator of where this could go because you look at the generations of evolution in open source software. Collaberation that come out of that could be applied to data. >> Absolutely, and it forced second government agencies to rethink how they operate. It forced them to say, well maybe this traditional procurement model doesn't work. How else can we do things? How can we move to more service support? Those types of changes came about from a change in licensing the software. (laughs) >> Exactly. Well, Daniel, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. It's been a pleasure, and we look forward to having you on again soon. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for coming on. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for John Furrier, we will have much more from AWS Public Sector Summit, here on theCUBE Teresa Carlson is coming up next. Stay tuned.

>> from San Matteo. It's the Cube covering scaler. Innovation Day Brought to You by scaler. >> Welcome to this Special Cube Innovation Day. Here in San Mateo, California Scale is headquarters for a coast of the Cube. We're here with two great guests. Claudia Carpenter co founder Andy McAlister, Who's Dev evangelist? Uh, great to have you guys here a chat before we came on. Thanks for having us >> Great to be >> so scaler. It's all about the logs. The answer is in the logs. That's the title of the segment Them. I'll see the log files with a lot of exhaust in their data value extracting that, but it's got more operational impact. What's what's the Why is the answer in the locks? >> Because that's where the real information is. It's one thing to be able to tell that something is going around when your systems, but what is going wrong as engineers, what we tend to do is the old print. If it's like here's everything I can think of in this moment and leave it as breadcrumbs for myself to find later, then I need to go and look at those bread crumbs >> in a challenge. Of course, with this is that logs themselves are proliferating. There's lots of data. There's lots of services inside this logs, so you've gotta be able to find your answers as fast as possible. You can't afford Teo. Wait for something else. T lead you to them. You need to deep dive >> the way you guys have this saying it's the place to start. What does that mean? Why? Why is that the new approach? >> What We're trying to differentiate because there's this trend right now in the Dev Ops world towards metrics because they're much smaller to store it, pre digesting what's going on in your systems. And then you just play a lot of graphs and things like that. We agree with that. You do need to be able to see what's going on. You need to be able to set alerts. Metrics are good, but they only get you so far. A lot of people will go through. Look at metrics, dig through and then they stop, switch over and go to their logs. We like to start with the logs, build our metrics from them, and then we go direct to >> the source. I think a minute explain what you mean by metrics, because that has multiple meanings. Because the current way around metrics and you kind of talked about a new approach. Could you just take a minute? Explain what you meant by metrics and how logs are setting up the measures. The difference there. >> So to me, metrics is just counting things right? So at log files of these long textual representations of what's going on in my system and it's impossible to visually parce that I mean literally 10,000 lines. So you count. I've got five of this one in six of this one, and it's much smaller to store. I've got five of this one and six of this one, but that's also not very much information, so that's really the difference. >> But, you know, we have customers who use their metrics to help them indicate something might be wrong inside of here. The problem is, is that modern environments where we have instant gratification, needs and people you know, we'd be wait five seconds. Basically, it's a law sale online here. You need to know what's went wrong, not just where we went wrong or that something went wrong. So building for the logs to the metrics allows you to also have a perfect time back to that specific entrance ancient entrance that lets you be you out. What was wrong? >> He mention Claudia Death ops. And this is really kind of think of fun market because Dev Ops is now going mainstream and see the enterprise now started to adopt. It's still Jean Kim from Enterprise. Debs estimates only 3% of enterprise really there yet. So the action's on the cloud Native Public Cloud side where it's, you know, full blown, you know, cloud native more services. They're coming to see Cooper Netease things of that nature out there. And these services are being stood up and torn down while the rhythmically like. So with who the hell stores that data? That's the logs. The nature of log files and data is changing radically with Dev ops. I'm certainly this is going to be more complications but developers and figuring out what's what. How do you see that? What's your reaction to that trend? >> Yeah, so Dev Ops is a very exciting thing. At were Google. It was sort of like the new thing is the developers had to do their own operations, and that's where this comes from. Unfortunately, a lot of enterprise will just rename their ops people devil apps, and that's not the same thing. It's literally developers doing operations, Um, and right now that it's never been so exciting as as it is right now in the text axe, because you could get so much that's open source. Pre built glue this all these things together. But since you haven't written the code yourself, you've no way deal which going on. So it's kind of like Braille. You've got to go back and look and feel your way through it to figure out what's going on. And that's where logs come into play. >> The logs essentially, you know, lift up, get people eyesight into visibility of things that they care about. Absolute. So what's this red thing? Somebody read what is written? Rennes. >> One of the approaches. You'll hear things like golden signals. You'll hear youse, and you'll hear a red Corvette stands for rates, a rose and duration. And ready is a concept that says, How do you actually work with some of these complex technologies working with you're talking about and actually determined where your problems are. So if you think about it, rate is kind of how much traffic's going through a signal for this as a metric, it's accumulative number. So to back to Claudia's point, it's just number here. But if you're trapping goes up, you want to know what's going wrong here is self explanatory. Something broke, fix it, and then duration is how long things took. You talked about communities, Communities works hands in hands with this concept of micro services. Micro services are everywhere, and there were Khun B places that have thousands of little services, all serving the bigger need here. If one of them goes slow, you need to know what went slow as fast as possible. So rate duration and air is actually combined to give you the overall health of your system. While at the same point logs elect, you figure out what was causing >> the problem we'll take. I'm intrigued by what Claudia said. They're on this. You know, Braille concept is essentially a lot of people are flying blind date with what's going on, but you mentioned micro services. That's one area that's coming. Got state full data. Stateless data. They were given a P I economy. Certainly a state becomes important for these applications. You know, the developers don't may or may not know what's happening, so they need to have some intelligence. Also, security we've seen in the cloud. When you have a lot of people standing up instances whether it's on Amazon or other clouds, they don't actually have security on some of their things. So they got it. Figure out the trails of what the data looks like they need the log files to have understanding of. Did something happened? What happened? Why? What is the bottom line here? Claudia? What what people do to kind of get visibility So they're not flying blind as developers and organizations. >> Well, you gotta log everything you can within reason. They always have to take into account privacy and security. But logs much as you can and pull logs from every one of the components in your systems. The micro services that day was just talking about are so cool. And as engineers, we can't resist them way. Love, complexity >> and cool things. >> Things especially cool things and new things. >> New >> green things. Sorry, easily distracted. But there they are, harder to support. They can be a really difficult environment. So again it's back to bread crumbs, leaving that that trail and being able to go back and reconstruct what happened. >> Okay, what's the coolest thing about scaler since we thought about cool and relevant? You guys certainly in the relevant side thing. Check the box there. What's cool? What's cool about scaler telling us? >> That's great. Answer What isn't. But you know, honestly, when I came to work here, I no idea I was familiar with Log Management was really with long search and so forth. And the first time I actually saw the product, my jaw dropped. Okay, I now go to a trade show, for instance, and I'm showing people to use this. And I hit my return button to get my results. And you showed band with can be really bad and it stalls for 1/10 of a second, and I complain about it now. No, there is nothing quite as thrilling as getting your results as fast as you can think about them. Almost your thought processes the slow part of determining what's going on, and that is mind boggling. >> So the speed is the killer. >> The speed is like what killed me. But honestly, something that Chloe's been heavily involved in It takes you two minutes to get started. I mean, there's no long learning curve there. You get the product and you are there. You're ready to go >> close about ease of use and simplicity, because developers are fickle, but they're also loyal. Do you have a good product? They loved to get in that love the freebie. You know, the 30 day trial, They'll they'll kick the tires on anything. But the product isn't working. You hear about it when it does work. This mass traffic to people you know pound at the doorstep of the product. What's the compelling value proposition for the developer out there? Because they >> don't want to >> waste time. That's like the killer death to any product for development. Waste their time. They don't want to deal with it. >> So we live in the TL D our world right now. Frankly, if I have to read something, I usually move on on DH. That's the approach we take with scaler as well. Yes, we have some documentation, but I always feel like I have failed with the user interface design. If I require you to go read the documentation. So I try to take that into account with everything that we that we put out there making it really easy and fast it just jumping in, try stuff. >> How do you get to solve the complex complexity problem through attraction software? What's the secret sauce for the simplicity of this system? >> For me, it's a complete lack of patients. It's just like I wouldn't put up with that. I'm not gonna ask you to. Frankly, I view this sounds a little bit trite, but I've you Software's a relationship, and I view whoever is looking at it as a peer of mine, and I would be embarrassed if they couldn't figure it out if it wasn't obvious. But it is. We do have this sort of slope here of people who really know what's going on and people wanna optimize. This is your 80 20 split on people that don't know what just want to come in. I want both of them to be happy, so we need to blend those >> to talk about the value proposition of what you guys have because we've been covering you know log file mentioned Lock Management's Splunk events. We've gone, too. There's been no solution that I think may be going on 10 years old, that were once cutting edge. But the world changes so fast with Amazon Web services with Google Cloud with azure. Then get the international clouds out there as well. It's it's here. I mean, the scale is there, you got compute. You got the edge of the network right around the corner in the data problem's not going away. Log files going be needed. You have all this data exhausted, these value. >> If anything, there's always going to be more data that's out there. You're going to have more sources of that data coming in here. You're talking a little bit about you have the hybrid cloud. Where's part on prom? Part in the cloud. You could have multi clouds where across his boundaries. You're gonna have the wonderful coyote world where you have no idea when or where you're going to get an upload from too. This too and EJ environment. And you've got to worry about those and at the same time time, the logging, everything, the breadcrumbs. You have ephemeral events. They're not always there, and those are the ones that kill you. So the model is really simple and applaud Claudia for conning concept wise. But you're playing with concept of kiss, right? We'll hear its keep it simple and sophisticated at the same time. So I can teach you to do this demo in two minutes flat, and from there you can teach yourself everything else that this product's capable of doing it. That simple >> talk about who? The person out there that you want to use his product and why should they give scale or look what's in it for them. >> So for me, I think the perfect is to have Dev ops use it. It's developers. We really have designed a product less for ops and more for engineers. So one of the things that is different about scaler is you have somebody come in and set it up, parsed logs that ingestion of logs, which is different than splunk and sumo on DH. Then it's ready to use right out of the box. So for me, I think that our sweet spot, his engineers, because a lot of our formulations of things you do are more technical you're thinking about about you know what air the patterns here. I'm not going to say it's calculus, because then that wouldn't be simple. But it's along. Those >> engineers might be can also cloud Native is a really key party. People who were cloud native. We're actually looking at four in the cloud or cloud migration, >> right way C a lot. For instance, in the Croup. In any space from the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, we're seeing a tremendous instrument interest in Prometheus. We're seeing a lot of interest in usto with service mesh. The nice thing is that they are already all admitting logs themselves. And so, from our viewpoint, we bring them in. We put them together. So now you can look at each piece as it relates to the very other piece >> Claudia share with the folks who, watching this just some anecdotal use cases of what you guys have used internally, whether customers that give him a feel for how awesome scaler is and what's the what could they expect? >> Well, put me on the spot here. Um, >> I'll kick off. So we have a customer in Germany there need commerce shop, They have 1,000 engineers for here. When we started the product we replace because it was on a charge basis that was basically per user. They came back and they said, Oh my God, you don't understand our queries Air taking 15 minutes to get back By the time the quarry comes back, the engineer's forgotten why he asked the question for this. And so they loaded up. They rapidly discovered something unique. It's that they can discover things because anyone can use it. We now have 500 engineers that touch the log files every day, I will attest. Having written code myself, nobody reads log files for fun. But Scaler makes it easy to discover new things and new connections. And they actually look at what house >> discoveries of real value, proper >> discovery is a massive value proposition. Uh, where you figure out things that you don't know about back to that events thing that Claudia started about was, you can only measure the events that you can already considered. You can't measure things that didn't happen >> close. It quickly thought what the culture on David could chime in. What's the culture like here scaler? >> It is a unique culture and I know everyone probably says that about their startup, but we keep work life balance as a very important component. We're such nerds and unabashedly nerds. Wait, what we do. It's a joyful atmosphere to work in. Our founder, Steve Newman, is there in his flat, his flannel shirt, his socks cruising around. Um, and we are very much into our quality barcode. We have a lot of the principles of Google sort of combined into a start up. I mean to say it's a very honest environment, >> Sol. Heart problems make it a good environment. >> Yeah, and I value provide real values, are critical >> for me and have fun at the same point in time. The people here work hard, but they share what they're working on. They share information. They're not afraid to answer the what are you working on? Question. But we always managed to have fun. We are a pretty tight group that way. >> Well, thanks for sharing that insight. We have a lot of fun here in Innovation Day with the Q p. I'm John Furia. Thanks for watching

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and the Antigo System Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in Seattle for the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloundNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Three days of coverage, we're in day two. A lot of action at Open-source. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000 North America, they were in China, they were all over Europe. The community's growing in a massive way. We had two great guests from Red Hat, all making it happen, part of the community. We've got Diane Mueller, whose theCUBE alumni director of community development, many times on theCUBE, good to see you, and Rob Szumski, principal product manager, both at Red Hat. Guys, thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, glad to be here. - Great to be here. >> So the world's changing a lot, and there was some news recently around Red Hat. I can't remember what it was. Recently, something big news, but you guys have been big players in Open-source for years. We always cover it, we always wax on about the origination of it and how the evolution, but the CloudNative piece has gotten so real, and your role in it particularly, we've had many conversations, going maybe back to the OpenStack days of how OpenShift was developing, then the bet on Kubernetes that you made, Core OS acquisition, those two things I think, to me, at least from my perspective, really catalyzed a lot of things at the right time, right? So, from there, just a lot of things has just been happening really in a good way. Big tail wind for you guys, CloudNative app developers are using Open-source, CI/CD pipeline, and then also policy based up under the hood, completely big shift in moving the game down the field. So big congratulations first of all. But what's new? What's the update? >> The update is Operators. I think the next big thing that we are really focusing on, and that's a game changer for all the second day operations type things, and we'll make Rob talk about it in detail, is the rise of Kubernetes' Operators. It's not a scary thing, it's not like terminator day, or anything like that, but it is really the thing that helps us make the service catalogs, the Kubernetes marketplaces really accessible to all of the data bases as a service, and all of the other things, and takes out some of the complexity of delivering applications and database  as a Service to anybody running Kubernetes anywhere. >> Take a minute to explain Operator, real quick, and then we can jump into it, because I think this is a fundamental trend, that we're seeing. Developer trend is pretty obvious, it's been that word for awhile, CloudScale, ML, machine learning, and all the goodness around application development, but the Operator side of it has been an IT thing. But now you guys have a different, a new approach that's winning. What is it? What is Operator? >> Well, it's Kubernetes that has the approach, and I'll let you-- >> Yeah, so it's basically like the rise of containers was great, because you could take a single container and package an application and give to somebody, and know that they can run it successfully. And Operator does that for a distributed system in the exact same way. So you're using all the Kubernetes primitives, so you're not reinventing service discovery, and seeker management, and all that. And you can give somebody an entire Kafka stack, or a machine learning stack, or whatever it is, these very complex distributed systems, and have them run it without having to be an expert. They need to know Kafka at a high level, but not exactly all the underpinnings of it, because that's all baked in the software. >> And the benefit and the impact of the organization is what? >> And just to clarify, so this was added in, I believe Kubernetes is like 1.7, it's something that's in there, it's not something Red Hat specific- >> Yeah, it's like-- >> So you're extending Kubernetes so that you have a custom resource definition, which is an extensible mechanism for saying, hey, I've got a deployment or a staple set, but what if I want to have a new object called a MongoDB? That knows how to deploy, and manage, and upgrade MongoDB. So that's the extension mechanism that we're using. >> Yeah, so you got to think, there's certain applications that this is going to make, just a lot easier how I manage them, deploy them, things like that. Any specific examples you want to share as to-- >> All the clustered data bases. >> There's a lot of the application side in this model have been very excited about this. >> So its all the vendors and partners that want a hybrid Cloud story, just targeting Kubernetes, and we're using Kubernetes under the hood, and then everybody wants to run like a staple data base tier, whether that's Mongo and Couchbase, and Cassandra, whatever. And these are all distributed systems. >> Alright, so I want you to just perch, you said a hybrid Cloud. Explain that model, because there's just something in general discussion that is hybrid or multi means I'm running multiple places, I'm not necessarily stretching an application, but I have instances there, just want to make sure we're on the same page. >> So this would be more the compatibility that you're programming against when you're building an operator, is Kubernetes. It's not a Cloud offering, it's not OpenShift, so you're just targeting Kubernetes, and so you can run MongoDB on prem, in the Cloud, and have it function the exact same, by standing up one of these Operators. And then if that Operator has higher level constructs for how to do multi-cluster aware data rebalancing, you can take advantage of that too. >> And the Open-source status of this product is what? >> It's all Open-source, it's all in the github repos, there's a Google group for Operator framework, that anyone can come and participate in. We hold SIG meetings on the third Friday of every month, 9 a.m. Pacific Time, and it's a completely Open-source project. There's a whole framework around it, so there's the Operator SDK, the Operator Lifecycle Management, and Operator metering, all the tooling there to help people build and manage these Operators, and it's all being built out there in the open with the community's support and feedback loops. >> What's the feedback? What's the top feedback you guys are getting right now? Seeing right now? >> I have to say, this is really, like I've been hanging out with you guys like for the past three, four months on this topic, trying to get my head around it and everything, and we came here and we had two sessions, an intro session and a deep dive session, intro yesterday, deep dive today. Today's deep dive, the room was about 250 people, and they're were people outside of it-- >> Security guards blocking people from coming in. >> Nobody could come in and it's like, it's insane. It's like, everybody needs these things, and everybody wants to figure out that, and when you ask people in the room whose building one, half the room raises their hands. It's just crazy. This thing crept up on us really, maybe not on Core OS, okay, it crept up on me very quickly, and it's very rapid adoption. We have a Kubernetes Operators workshop on Friday, so not only do we have pre-conference days of like OpenShift Cons that are huge now, but now we're starting to book end, CNCF events and put on other things, just because, and that, we had 100 seats that we were hoping we would fill, and it sold out in like minutes once it got in there, and there's a waiting list of like 300 people. It is like one of, aside from Knative, and all the other wonderful hot things too, it is one of the most interesting developments I think right now. >> Thirst for the content. Would it impact? >> Yeah, and you can get all of the documentation is out there now, and people are already building them. We have a list of 50 community Operators. It's just, it's phenomenal how quickly it's growing. >> You know, Diane and Rob, it's funny because you know, we do so many of these theCUBE interviews, and this is our 10th year doing theCUBE coming up, and I remember the conversations going back in the OpenStack days, we would ask questions like, if you had a magic wand, what would you like, hope to have happened, right? And you know, those are parts of the evolution, where it's like, it's aspirational, things are being built. It seems now with Kubernetes, it's almost like, wait a minute, it's actually, this is like the goodness is so compelling, above and below Kubernetes that it's almost like uncomprehendible. You think about, oh this is actually happening. Finally the kinds of steady state kind of operational things that have been a pain in the butt for years-- >> Yeah, the toil, it's gone, for the most part. >> Yeah. >> So Rob, I've been having a lot of just thinking back to, you're employee number two at Core OS, when I first talked to Core OS, it was, we're going to build all of these individual tools, and we're going to Open-source them, and it's going to be good. We watched this just rising ecosystem and the CNCF, and it feels like what's nice and what's different that I see, compared to some previous things, is it's not one product or even a small group of companies. It's, I have this tool kit, and some of them work together, but many of them are independently used. We've talked to your peers earlier about it, etCD. etCD is totally stand alone, doesn't need to be Kubernetes. What have you seen, if you go back to that original vision, would Core OS just been, part of this whole ecosystem, and done it, if this was available, and has this delivering on a promise that your team had hoped to work on? >> Yeah, so we've always filled in where we see gaps, and so something like etCD, the concept is not new, and it comes from Google, and they have a system internally, and as Brandon got up on stage and said, we needed that coordinate, reboot, to grow out, to cluster of machines. It didn't exist so we had to build it. Same thing with how we wanted to manage Linux. There was no distro that even resembled what we were doing. Wanted to do automatic upgrades, people thought that was crazy, so we had to go build it. And so, but we always adopted the best of breed technology, when it existed. In our early bet Kubernetes, we just saw, this is the thing, and went for it. I don't even remember what version, but it was months and months before it was zero point oh, or one point oh, so it was, we've been doing it forever. And you just see the right thing, and it's the little nugget that you need, and if you don't see it, then you build it. >> What are you surprised about Rob, in terms of the ecosystem now, you mentioned some goodness is happening, still a lot more to do, visibility around value creation, you're starting to see spots where value can be created in the ecosystem, which is great. Still more work areas, but what's surprising you? What do you see as opportunities, challenges? Your thoughts, because this vision of ease of use and programmability, is happening, right? So there's still more work to do. What's your vision there? What's your thoughts? >> I mean, I think self service is key, so this is like the rise of the Cloud comes from self service for developers, and Kubernetes gives you the right abstraction, where self service for VM's, like OpenStack, which is not quite at the level of what you want. You don't want a VM, you actually wanted a place to deploy an application, you wanted load balancing, you wanted service discovery, you didn't want like a bare Ubuntu VM, and so Kubernetes raises you up to where you're productive, and then it's about building stuff on top. But what's interesting, in the space is, we're still kind of competing on Kubernetes installers, and stuff like that, so we're not even really into like the phase where people are being super productive on the platform, other than these leading companies. So I think we'll democratize that, and we'll have a whole new landscape. >> And so 2019 you see as what being a key theme for Kubernetes? >> I think it'll be Core stuff built on top, like all the serverless frameworks, a bunch of container natives storage solutions, solving some of these problems that folks are reaching out to external machine learning, but bringing that onto the cluster, GPU support, that type of stuff. It's all about the workloads. >> And tradition end users, you have a huge install base, with Red Hat, well documented, as the end users start coming in and looking at CloudNative, and doing a reimagine of their environment, whether it's IT span, IT investments, to have a run their coding and the deployments. It's going to change. 2019's going to have an impact on what I call mainstream enterprise, for lack of a better description. What's the impact of those guys, 'cause now, they now have head room, they can do more, what's the main stream enterprise look like right now with the impact of Kubernetes? >> I think they're going to start deploying applications and get like lower the time to business value, much, much lower. And I was just talking to a customer, and they ordered bare metal machines like a year ago, and they're still not racked and in the data center. And so people are still getting over that type of stuff, but once you have like a shared Kubernetes layer, you can onboard teams like crazy. I mean, name spaces are free, quote, unquote, and you can get 35 engineering teams on a Kubernetes cluster super easy. >> So they can ramp up in development teams basically, as they bring value in-house, versus outsourcing everything. They start getting development teams, this is where the action is. >> I think you're also going to see the rise of those end users contributing back things, to the Kubernetes community and as Lyft, and Uber, and everybody are great examples of that. Uber with Jaeger, and Lyft is, we were just in the Operators thing, and they raised their hand that they are about to Open-source it, a few Operators that they're building and stuff, and you're just going to see people that you didn't normally see. Often these large foundation driven things are vendor driven, but I think what you see here, is the end user community is now embracing the Open-source, is getting the legal teams there, allowing them to share their things, because one, they get more people to maintain them, and more people working on them, but it's really I think the rise of the end user we'll see, as they start participating more and more in here. And that's the promise of Open-source. >> And that's where CNCF really made it's bones. It wasn't really vendor led per se, it was really end users, the guys building out their stuff for the first time. You see Lyft for instance, great example, you guys did a Core OS, this is like the new generational model. Final question before we break. I want to get this out there. Get a plug in for Red Hat. What are you guys, what's the focus for the show? What's the news? What's the big story for Red Hat here at KubeCon this year? >> I think it's Operators, that's what we're here talking about. It's a really big push to once again get smarter workloads onto the cluster. We've got a really great hybrid story, we've got a really great over the air upgrade story that we're bringing from some of the Core OS technology, and then the next thing is, once it's easy to run 35 clusters, we need a bunch of workloads to put on there. And so we want to save folks from the toil of running all those workloads as well, just like we did at the cluster level. >> Awesome. >> Well put. I couldn't add more. One of the things that Core OS did, you hit the nail on the head earlier, is when there was something missing, they helped us build it, and with the Operator SDK, and the Lifecycle Management, and the metering, and whatever else the tooling is, they have really been inspirational inside of Red Hat. And so they filled a number of gaps, and it's just been all Operators all the time right now. >> It's great when a plan comes together. You guys got a great tail wind. Congratulations on all the success, and it's just the beginning of the wave. It's theCUBE, covering the wave of innovation here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, we'll be back with more live coverage. Day two of Three days of Kube Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle,Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon andCloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone,live Cube coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman hosting three days of coverage. Wall to wall, 8,000 people,double from last year, North America, expanding intoChina, Europe, everywhere. The CNCF is expanding, so is Kubernetes. The rise of Kubernetes has spawned the Cloud Native movement going mainstream that's ecosystem driven. We got a great guest here. Steven Bower, data andanalytics infrastructure lead at Bloomberg, featuredthem on siliconangle.com in one of our special reportsand user using Kubernetes and the variety of Cloud Native. Steven welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for coming on,award winning end user, given all the end users,everyone's kind of award winning. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Congratulations. Bloomberg's known, we've covered you guys, great development team. You guys have a lot ofengineers at Bloomberg as well as being a media company on cable, Bloomberg terminal, everything else. You've got a lot of datascience, you've got a lot of engineers, you're building stuff. What's the focus on Kubernetes? Where are you using it? How are you contributing? What's the dynamic? Why are you winning with Kubernetes? >> Sure, that's a good question. I think, well we're usingit all over the place in lots of different things. We have a huge engineeringteam that does all kinds of different things. So in the area that I manage,which is data and analytics infrastructure, we have been we basically managedatabases and search engines and all kinds of other tech like that. What we've ended uprealizing is that we built something that looks a lot like Kubernetes but doesn't work nearlyas well for all of those different systems, tomanage them at scale. You know, we're talkingthousands of instances of post cross and solar andall kinds of different things and having a singletool, or single platform which we can kind of levelup all of those things really makes a lot of sense in terms of not necessarily like cuttingcosts and things like that 'cause that's actuallynot as interesting to me as actually allowing theteams that manage those things to actually contribute to those projects, contribute to solar or postcross and stuff like that and free them from havingto spend a lot of time managing infrastructure. >> Tim Hopkins said, itwas just on theCUBE here before you came on,from Google, one of the co-leads on Kubernetesat gkegoogles@cloud. He said something interesting. I want to get your reaction to this. One of the benefits of Kubernetesis to give the confidence that deployments are going to be reliable and that confidence gets a flywheel and then people startshipping more as a matter of course of the business,not like oh my God we got to push a new code,oh my God, fingers crossed, press the button. The old model was fingers cross, go, QA, no, no, confidence, theconfidence and the iteration. Is that where you'reseeing the value, too? Does that relate to you? Does that make sense to you?Does that resonate with you? >> Yeah, it definitely does. A lot of the models thatwe're trying to move towards are really like declarative model of both how we develop software andthen how we deploy software and then how we manage it in production. Kubernetes offers that, thatecosystem across the board. That's been really, trying to think of a great way to put this. Being able to have that tooland being able to do that and the repeatability. In the world that I livein, everything we do we don't do one of it,we do, I think we run something like 2000 solar clusters. So all we're doing all daylong is just stamping out the same thing over and overagain and if I can build one system that doesthat very, really cleanly and simply and then I canuse that same system for running post tests orrunning something else that gives us the confidenceand we can test it, we can run it on our laptops. Our developers can developand do all that kind of stuff and it works the same everywherethey go and we can just rinse, lather, repeat kind of. >> So Steve, step back for a second. Your infrastructure, is thisall Bloomberg Data Center's? How does cloud fit into the discussion? >> Yeah, I mean, we dohave some infrastructure running in the cloud but primarily it's all on prem and data center. In my world it's all onmetal because we have all these data systemsthat need direct access to SSDs and MME andall this kind of stuff. >> Can you give us, withoutsharing state secrets, a little bit of the scaleof what you're doing? I love data's at the centerof what you're doing there. We can all understand howimportant data is to your business but talk aboutwhat the requirements are that why you have some special requirements that thetypical enterprise wouldn't. >> Sure, I think, youcan look at Bloomberg as a media company, wehave news, all that stuff. We obviously have the Bloomberg terminal and really what drives that terminal, it's all kinds of software but in the end it's data, right, andit's all kinds of data. What is that definition,big data and all these whatever stuff that everyonewas pitching five years ago. We have all of those problems. We have data that is movingat millions of ticks a second. We have enormous data sets. We have really complex data sets like people scanning courtfilings from tiny little courts all around thecountry and sending that data in and we have tonormalize that and put it in. So all these crazy differenttypes of information. They are both demanding interms of the complexities of parsing data and puttingthem and structuring them into those systems as wellas the scale so we have some pretty enormous andhigh performance systems that require us and kindof drive us to that need for metal and very focused on performance in all different aspects. >> Great, wonder, give us your engagement with this ecosystem here. One of the big questionscoming in is okay, Kubernetes, the thingwe here from the CNTF is well, it's getting kind of boring. I don't know that I agree with the term. I understand they'resaying it's becoming mature and therefore there's less drama around it which is good but this ecosystemis anything but boring. You ask a user like yourself, you've got complex requirements. There's more than 30different projects a year. What do you use out of here? What do you build yourself? What do you contribute to? How do you consideropen-source contributions? It's a big nut and wedon't have a ton of time but if you could scratch thesurface on some of those. >> I think the number onelesson that I've learned from this ecosystem isthat it's moving so rapidly that when we decide tobuild something on our own we have a talk tomorrow aboutour data science platform which we built about ayear-and-a-half, two-years ago. By the time we were ready to talk about it and everything like that,you have all the other different technologiesthat have moved forward. So it made us realize thatif we're going to start something internally,a new project, either A we should go look and seewhat's out there and contribute to that or we should juststart it in open source to begin with rather thanthat oh, let's build it and then we'll open source it. >> Chasing your tail kind of thing. >> Yeah, it's like we have tobecome part of the ecosystem in our entirety. >> That brings up a good question. I want to ask you this incontext of thinking about your peers that mightnot be as progressive as Bloomberg on the tech side. You guys certainly do a greatjob and it's well documented. Classic IT shop, racking andstacking servers and boxes and now we got the wholedigital transformation thing going on, same old, same old but now, 2019, real impact. The investments they'remaking on how to change their IT, their data isnow in front of them. They have to deal with them. This is right front andcenter 'cause companies are realizing they'regoing to go out of business if they don't actually make the adoption 'cause the data's super valuable. So how do you see the Kubernetesand the CNC of ecosystem changing the investment practices of a classic enterprise IT? You know, if your peerscalled you and said hey Steven, hey help me out,what's the secret playbook? Where do I go? I don't want to get, Igot to make some changes. What do they change? What's the impact of theinvestment with Kubernetes? What's the end game? What's the real impact? >> I think, it's a toughthing, right, 'cause Bloomberg is really notlike your typical IT shop. We are a software company at heart and so that makes us alittle bit different. When I talk to other people,I say that in the sense that not a lot of companiescan afford to decide to make a project open-- >> 'cause they outsource everything. >> Right, outsource it. Well, I mean-- >> They outsource everything. >> That's actually a huge change though. We're not sitting heretalking about hundreds of commercial products that are owned by a small handful of vendorsthat are multi-million dollar investments foreverything we're doing. We're talking about lotsof little tiny companies that have products thatare really, really valuable that are in the open sourceworld that we can get our hands on and startworking with before we even make a decision about talkingabout support or whatever. There's all kinds of technologies that, I walk into this room andthese are like friends all around 'cause we'veworked with all their software and we're like hey, theseguys have a company now. This was just a GitHubrepo a couple years ago and I think that that's abig change and embracing that, that's probablyreally hard for your typical kind of IT shop where theywant to have this clear line of I can call techsupport and get someone on the phone and that's like the main-- >> The classic old software model but it's changed. >> So Steve, one of thethings we're trying to get some insight on here isit's not just running Kubernetes in production,it's what am I doing with it. How does that change my business? I understand ML is a big pieceof what you're doing there. Give us some insight as to how does this transform your business? Does it transform your business? >> Specifically on the MLside and we'll talk about this actually that's kind of thefocus of our talk tomorrow so I don't want to stealtheir thunder too much but a lot of it was really about looking at okay, how did ML, deep ML people work? How did they want to work? If you ask an ML personwhat they really want they want an infinitely scalable cluster that it's just theirs and they want to an assay to manage all theinfrastructure for them and a data engineer to managecleaning up all the data and all these things and they wanted that all to themselves and not haveto share it with anyone else. So a lot of what we try tofigure out is how we can actually deliver that to themand it really has transformed. Once people realize that onour platform they had access to an enormous pool of GPUs,it went from oh, I want to work on my box and can you giveme GPUs on my one little box to wow, I can dohyper-parameter tuning across hundreds of GPUs overnight or during the day or whatever their needs are. It really unlocked people's capabilities and they're actuallylike, they went from being skeptical of a systemthat they had to share and things like that 'causeit actually just works and that's really the-- >> That's really thedopamine effect for them. They can see value withouthaving to go through the slogging of the configurationsand the normal stuff >> Yeah, exactly.>> that they had to do. >> Authentication. >> So we've been hearingthreads of the CICD pipeline is a big benefit,which you're kind of seeing as well but whatwe're also seeing people building below Kubernetes seeing storage and networking getting better. How do you see that holistically? Are you seeing is thenetwork more performant, that notion of programmabilitybecomes now part of it, automation, it's software. Everyone has to build software. In fact, I talked to theVP of Technology Innovation at Proctor and Gamble andhe's saying hey, we outsourced everything, I got to start hiring software so maybe not as big asBloomberg but the trend is let's get more software people on board but they still got networks,they still got storage, they still got the gear. What's the impact, the under-the-hood? >> Yeah, I think it'scomplex because you typically have these structures thatare built inside companies where you have a networkingteam and you have an infrastructure, ahardware team and whatever. One of the SREs on my team the other day, he was like, do you thinkwe can talk to the network team about puttingsoftware on their switches? That's a really interestingquestion to start asking and he actually had areally good use case. That makes a lot of sense, maybewe should think about that. And then dealing with, there'sobviously the technology aspect of that but there's also skillsets. Someone that's been workingwith a bunch of switches for a bunch of years isn'tnecessarily a programmer, used to a typical CICDprocess and things like that. >> On the flip side, I thinkthat's cool to recognize the networking guy butwe heard Tim Hopkins say there's a lot of policyknobs in Kubernetes that the networking guyscould potentially take advantage of so it mightwork the other way. Are the network guys looking at Kubernetes saying hey, or are theynot yet that sophisticated but they would love, they'd love policy. Network guys write policy. Wouldn't you want-- >> Yeah, yeah, oh absolutely. It's actually one of thebiggest draws of using Kubernetes in our ecosystem. We've made heavy use ofapplying network policy down to the workload level which means that from a securityperspective, if I know that I'm transmittingdata between two different places and I've only openedup assets for that one application, for thatone particular use case, rather than saying well,I know that I'm running the same workload on thesame box and I got to open it up for everyoneon that box but maybe someone might use thatthing but maybe they won't and like worrying about stuff like that, it's like no, I can runa workload and I know that these are the only two end points that it can talk to. >> Oh, that's a relief. That's like, hey, we're done. >> So for them this is their panacea. I know exactly whatworkloads are doing exactly what on the network andwhat they're capable of so that's been-- >> That's real progress. That's progress. >> Oh, it's huge progress, yeah. And we've been able todo things that we used to not be able to do for years. >> Talk about the-- >> I just had a quicklittle question there. You mentioned you've gotten SREs. When did you pick that up asa term that you called there and how do you see if you talk a little bit to the skill set and the jobs of peoplethat you have inside. >> Bloomberg's a big companyso the terminology of it and what actuallyindividual teams are doing is probably a little bitvaried across the organization. It's been something that'scome in over probably the last two to three years at Bloomberg. In my organization, it wasactually really interesting 'cause when I started off with, you know, you read the Google book and whatever. What I did is I wentto the guys on my team that were going to becomethe SREs for the organization and I had them write thismanifesto about how we should build and deploy and managesoftware and I didn't tell them necessarily up front thatthis is what was going to happen but when they finishedwriting that and agreed that this is how thingsshould work and they argued for a while, I said, okay,now go build all the tooling to make this easy forpeople to do, all right. And that's what we, and thenthey've just been building off their tooling. Turns out when you're workingwith a lot of the tools and the CNTF and then with Kubernetes, that's actually not that hard. There's lots of thingsthere that are just easy when you get to that place and so that's the kind of journey we'vebeen on to really try to build that infrastructure andthey've done a good job. The engineers downstream of them the speed that they're able to develop and the assurance that there was a CVE forKubernetes two weeks ago and we patched it theafternoon the CVE came out. Being able to do that in anysort of company of scale is I've worked a lot ofbanking and stuff like that in my past and it's unheard of to be able to deploy things in that speed. >> And that's really, Imean this is the goodness of clouds, the goodnessof having that kind of consistency operationally. It's funny you use SRE,that's a Google term. It's a great term andyou've got developers, you got operations kindof working together now. That's the magic. Well Steven, thank you so much for sharing this great insight on theCUBE. Certainly great valuefor the folks watching. Lot of traction, a lot ofpeople, end users contributing and consuming Kubernetes,building around it. Great trend, it's really fun to watch. A lot of composable servicesup and down the stack so congratulations. Steve Bower, Data andAnalytics Infrastructure Lead at Bloomberg. This is theCUBE bringingyou all the action, sharing the data here at KubeCon. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back withmore after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon 2018, Cloud Native Con. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier, your host with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Ashesh Badani, who is the Vice-President and General Manager of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Great to see you, welcome back to the Cube. >> Thanks for having me on. Always good to be back. >> So you guys, again, we talk every year with you. It's almost like a check-in. So what's new? You got some big, obviously, the news about the IBM. We don't really want to get into that detail. I know you just a stop on that because it's already out there. But you guys had great success with platformers of service. Now you got the growth of Kubecon and Cloud Native Con, 8000 attendees and users. There's uptake. What's the update on the Red Had side? >> Yeah, we're excited. Excited to be back at Kubecon. It's bigger and better than it's ever been, I think so. That's fantastic. We've been investing in this community for over four years now, since 2014. Really, from the earliest days. Based the entire platform on it. Continue growing that, adding lots of customers across the world. And I think what's really been gratifying for us to see is just the diversity of participants. Both in user perspective as well as the wider ecosystem. So whether you're a storage player, a networking player, management, marketing, what have you. Everything sort of building around this ecosystem. I think we're creating a great amount of value and we're seeing diverse applications being built. >> So you guys have been good then on (mumbles), good timing, a lot of things are going on. This show is an open-source community, right. And that's been a great thing. This is kind of where the end users come from. But two other personas come in that we're seeing participate heavily. The IT pro, the IT expert, and then the classic developer. So you have kind of a melting pot of how this is kind of horizontally connecting. You guys have been successful in the IT side. Where is this impacting the end users?6 How is this open-source movement impacting IT, specifically, and at the end of the day, the developers who are writing code? Have to get more stuff out. What's your thoughts? >> So, we hosted OpenShift Commons yesterday. OpenShift Commons, for the the folks who don't know, is our gathering of participants within the larger OpenShift community. We had lots of end users come and talk about the reason they're adopting a Kubernetes-based platform is to get greater productivity. So for example, if you're someone like Progressive Insurance, an established organization, how do you release applications quicker? How do you make your developers more productive? How do you enable them to have more languages, tools, frameworks at their disposal? To be able to compete in this world where you've got start-ups, you've got other companies trying to compete aggressively with you. I think it's a big dent here, right? It's not just for if you work traditional IT. But it's for if you were a company of all sizes. >> When you talk about customers, every customer is different. You've got, you look at IT, everything is additive, it tends to be a bit of a heterogeneous mess when you get there. Help connect for us what are you hearing from customers? How does, not just Kubernetes, but everything going on here in the Cloud Native environment? How is it helping them? How is it changing the way that they do their business and how's Red Hat involved? >> So one thing we've been noticing is that Hybrid Cloud is here and here to stay. So we've consistently been hearing this from customers. They've invested lots of money and time and energy, skills, in their existing environments. And they want to take advantage of public clouds. But they want to do that with flexibility, with portability, to bring to bear. What we've been trying to do is focus on exactly that. How do we help solve that problem and provide an abstraction. How do you provide primitives. So, for example, we announced our support of Knative, and how we'll make that available as part of OpenShift. Why's that? Well, how can we provide Serverless primitives within the platform so folks can have the flexibility to be able to adopt next-generation technologies. But to be able to do that consistently regardless of where they deploy. >> So, I love that. Talk about meeting the customers there. One of the things that really strikes me, there's so much change going on in the industry. And that's an area that Red Hat has a couple decades of experience. Maybe help explain how Red Hat in bringing some of that enterprise, oversight. Just like they've done for Linux for a long time. >> Yeah, yeah. Stu, you're following us very closely, as are you John, and the team at the Cube. We're trying to embrace that change as it comes upon us. So, I think the last time I was here, I was here with Alex Polvi of Core OS. Red Hat acquired Core OS in January. >> Big deal. >> Yeah, big acquisition for us. And now we're starting to see the fruits of some of that labor. In terms of integrating that technology. Why did we do that? We wanted to get more automation into the platform. So, customers have said, hey, look, I want these clusters to be more self-managing, self-healing. And so we've been really focused on saying how can we take those challenges the customers have, bring that directly into a platform so they're performing more and more like the expectations that they have in the public cloud, but in these diverse, introgenous, environments. >> That speaks to the operating model of cloud. You guys have a wholistic view because you're Red Hat. You got a lot of customers. You have the Dev House model, you got the Kubernetes container orchestration, micro-services. How does that all connect together for the customer? I mean, is it Turn Key and Open Shift? You guys had that nice bet with Core OS, pays big, huge dividends. What are some of those fruits in the operating model? So the customer has to think about the systems. It's a systems model, it's an operating system, so-to-speak. But they still got to develop and build apps. So you got to have a systems-wholistic view and be able to deliver the value. Where does it all connect? What's your explanation? >> So distributed systems are complex. And we're at the point where no individual can keep track of the hundreds, the thousands, the hundred-thousand containers that are running. So, the only way, then, to do it is to be able to say, how can the system be smart? So, at the Commons yesterday we had sort of a tongue-in-cheek slide that said, the factory of the future will only have two employees, a man and a dog. The man's there to feed the dog, and the dog's in place to ensure the man doesn't go off and actually touch the equipment. And the point really being, how can we bring technology that can bring that to bare. So, one example of that is actually through our Core OS acquisition. The Core OS team was working on a technology called, operators. Which is to say, how can we take the human knowledge that exists. To take complex software that's built by third parties and bring that natively into the platform and then have the platform go and manage them on behalf of the actual customer itself. Now we've got over 60 companies building operators. And we've, in fact, taken entire open-shift platforms, put operators to work. So it's completely automated and self-managed. >> The trend of hybrid is hot. You mentioned it's here to stay. We would argue that it's going to be a gateway to multi-cloud. And as you look at the stacks that are developing and the choices, the old concept of a stack-- and Chris was on earlier, the CTO of CNCF. And I kind of agree with him. The old notion of stack is changing because if you've got a horizontal, scale-able cloud framework, you got specialty with machine learning at the top, you got a whole new type of stack model. But, multi-cloud is what the customers want choice for. Red Hat's been around long enough to know what the multi-vendor word was years ago. Multi-vendor choice, multi-cloud choice. Similar paradigms happening now. Modern version of multi-vendor is multi-cloud. How do you guys see the multi-cloud evolution? >> So we keep investing and helping to make that a reality. So, last week, we made some announcements around Open Shift dedicators. Open Shift dedicators is the Open Shift manage service, or AWS. Open Shift is available in ways where it can be self-managed directly by customers in a variety of environments. Directly run around any public cloud or open stack, or what you'd like environment. We have third-party partners. For example, DXC D-systems providing managed versions of Open Shift. And then you can have Red Hat managed Open Shift for you. For example, on AWS, or coming next year, with Microsoft. Through our partnership for Open Shift on Azure. So you as a customer now have, I think, more choice than you ever had before. In terms of adopting Dev-Ops or dealings with micro-services. But then having flexibility with regard to taking advantage of tools, services, that are coming from, pretty much, every corner of IT industry. >> You guys have a huge install base. You've been servicing customers for many, many years, decades. Highest level support. Take us through what a customer, a traditional Red Hat customer that might not be fully embracing the cloud in the past, now is on-boarding to the cloud. What's the playbook? What do you guys offer them? How do you engage with them? What's the playbook? Is it, just buy Open Shift? Is there a series of-- how do you guys bring that Red Hat core Lenux customer that's been on Prim. Maybe a little bit out of shadow IT in the cloud, saying, hey, we're doing additional transformation. What's the playbook? >> So, great question, John. So, first fall into the transformation might be an over-hyped term. Might be a peak hype at this point in time. But I think that the bigger point from my perspective is how do you move more dollars, more euros, more spend towards innovation. That's what every company is sort of trying to do. So, our focus is, how can we build on the investments that they've made? At this point in time, (mumbles) Lenux probably has 50,000 customers. So, pretty much, every customer, any size, around the world, is some kind of Lenux user. How can we then say, how can we now provide you a platform to have greater agility and be able to develop these services quicker? But, at the same time, not forget the things that enterprises care about. So, last week we had our first big security issue released on Kubernetes. The privilege escalation flaw. And so, obviously, we participate in the community. We had a bunch of folks, along with others addressing that, and then we rolled our patches. Our patch roll-out went back all the way to version 3.2, 3.2 shipped in early 2016. Now, the one hand you say, hey, everyone has Dev-Ops, why do you need to have a patch for something that's from 2016? That's because customers still aren't moving as quickly as we'd like. So, I just want to temper, there's an enthusiasm with regard to, everyone's quick, everything's lightning fast. At the same time, we often find-- and so, going back to your question, we often find some enterprises will just take a little bit longer, in reality to kind of get-- (both speaking at once) >> Work loads, they're not going to be moving overnight. >> That's right. >> So there's some legacy from those workloads. >> Right, right. And so, what we want to do is ensure, for example, the platform. So we talked about the security and lifecycle. But, is supporting these Cloud Native, next generation, stateless applications, but also established legacy stateful applications all on the same platform. And so the work we're doing is ensure we don't-- you know, it's like, leave no application behind. So, either the work that we'll do, for example, with Red Hat Innovation Labs. We help sort of move that forward. Or with GSIs, global integrated, real integrators to bring those to bare. >> Ashesh, wonder if we could drill a little bit. There's a lot of re-training that needs to happen. I've been reading lots on there. It's not, oh, I bring in this new Cloud Native team that's just going to totally re-vamp it and take my old admins and fire them all. That's not the reality. There's not enough training people to do all of this wonderful stuff. We see how many people are at this show. Explain what Red Hat's doing. Some of the training maturation, education paths. >> So we do a lot of work on the just core training aspect, learning services, get folks up to speed. There's work that happens, for example, in CNCF. But we do the same thing around certifications, around administering the systems, developing applications, and so on. So that's one aspect that needs to be learned. But then there's another aspect with regard to how do we get the actual platform, itself, to be smart enough to do things, that in the past, individual people had to do? So, for example, if we were to sort of play out the operator vision fully and through execution. In the past, perhaps you needed several database admins. But, if you had operators built for databases, which, for example couch, base, and mongo, and others, have built out. You can now run those within the platform and then that goes and manages on behalf. Now you don't need as many database admins, you free those people up now to build actual business innovation value. So, I think what we're trying to do is increasingly think about how we sort of, if you will, move value up the stack to free up resources to kind of work on building the next generation of services. And I think that's our business transformation work. >> And I think, even though digital transformation is totally over-hyped, which I agree, it actually is really relevant. Because I think the cloud wave, right now, has been certainly validated. But what's recognized is that, people have to re-imagine how they do their infrastructure. And IT is programmable. You're seeing the network. The holy trinity of IT is storage, networking, and compute. So, when you start thinking about that in a way that's cloud-based, it's going to require them to, I don't want to say re-platform, but really move to an operating-environment that's different, that they used to have. And I think that is real. We're seeing evidence of that. With that in mind, what's next? What do you guys got on the horizon? What's the momentum here? What's the most important story that you guys are telling here at Red Hat? And what's around the corner? >> Yeah, so obviously, I talked about a few announcements that we made right around Open Shift Dedicated and the upgrades around that. And things like, for example, supporting bring-your-own-cloud. So, if you got your own Amazon security credentials, we help support that. And manage that on your behalf, as well. We've talked this week about our support native, trying to introduce more server-less technologies into Open Shift. We announced the contribution of SCD to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So, continuing re-affirming our commitment to the community I think looking ahead, going forward, our focus next year will be on Open Shift four, which will be the next release of the platform. And there, it's all about how do we give you a much better install than upgrade experience than you've had before? How do we give you these clusters that you can deploy in multiple different environments and manage that better for you? How do we introduce operators to bring more and more automation to the platform? So, for the next few months our focus is on creating greater automation in the platform and then enabling more and more services to be able to run on that. >> Pretty exciting for you guys riding the wave, the cloud wave. Pretty dynamic. A lot of action. You've guys have had great success, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> You're fun to watch. The Cube coverage here. We're in Seattle for KubeCon 2018 and Cloud Native Con. I'm John your host. Stay with us for more coverage of day one of three days of coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat digital music) >> Hey welcome back, get ready. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studio for a Cube Conversation. Again, we love talking with little companies, emerging companies, kind of maybe technology you haven't heard of before and we're excited to have our next guest 'cause he's right in the heart of security space, which is always a hot topic, continues to be a hot topic and will never go away 'cause the bad guys they just keep working hard to try to break everything that we create. So our next guest is Ambuj Kumar, the co-founder and CEO of Fortanix. Ambuj welcome. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> So give, for the people who aren't familiar with Fortanix kind of the basic 101. >> Yeah, so if you look at all the security today, it falls into three categories. One is protecting your data address. So what that means is, if somebody steals your laptop, how do you protect your hard drive from getting exposed? >> Right. >> So we use encryption for that. Similarly, we also use encryption to secure our data in use. So we connect to some bank website and our data goes encrypted through TELUS and so what that means is if somebody's doing wiretapping our data is protected. However once the applications start to run, whether it's in your data center or public cloud, then the data applications are being exposed. So to fix that Runtime vulnerabilities what the industry has done so far is to secure the infrastructure, try to secure the infrastructure and that is $80 billion per year industry. But we have failed to that because infrastructure is just so vastly complex. So what we do is we use something called Runtime encryption and idea is that your data and applications remain encrypted, so even when people who are running your cloud they're untrusted and they want to get your data, they can't do anything with it. >> So, a lot of stuff there to unpack. So first off we know the perimeter systems don't work anymore. >> Yeah >> I mean you got to put them up they do some level of stuff But you can't secure the perimeter anymore. So it is all this kind of working your security >> Yeah and the encryption all the way through the process. But this is pretty interesting I've never heard of encryption actually at Runtime, I mean it begs the question, you know how does the microprocessor run the encrypted data? >> That's right So it's a long research problem in security. People had been working on something called Fully homomorphic encryption and the idea is that: Can I take my program encrypted data encrypted and run in totally untrusted environment and give you the result that you can decrypt. Chances are that you can do that with very simple programs, like if you're adding some numbers, multiplying those numbers and even in those cases slow by many orders of magnitude. So what normally some operations takes one second will it will take three years. >> Okay >> Not good. >> Laughs >> So what we do is we use some new instructions from Intel called Software Guard Extension, Intel SGX and your data and your programs, they get decrypted in a secure region of CPU So all the memory, all the operating systems accessible things, anything that can be touched by any other process, they only can look at encrypted stuff. Your data get decrypted right when instructions are working on them and at that point it is accessible only to your write process. >> Right. >> So you use this hardware capability to accelerate the encryption decryption. So we can provide all the benefits of fully owned morphic encryption at a performance that is totally acceptable to our customers. >> So let me make sure I understand, So it decrypts it literally at the last possible obviously not second >> Yeah but last possible (laughs) in microprocessor time >> Yeah cycle, runs that process and then is write only to the output of that process. And is that immediately encrypted again >> Exactly >> On the write side as well? >> Yeah Yeah, exactly. Exactly. >> (laughs) So you mentioned the Intel instructions So is this relatively new, the SGX? >> Yeah, so we were first vendor to commercialize Intel SGX, its a new technology, but it's coming in all their CPU's so right now it's in all client CPU's, and some of the data centers CPU's But five years from now all the CPU's you will get from Intel will hopefully have this technology >> Right So obviously Skylake >> Yeah Skylake has it and all newer architecture. >> Wow So a little bit more about the company How long you guys been around, how long you been working on this problem you know funding kind of give us the overview on the company. >> Yeah >> So I have been working on encryption for last seven years the company was founded two years ago >> Okay >> We are funded by some well known security VC's including Foundation Capital and NeoTribe Ventures >> Okay >> We are widely recognized as the pioneers in this field that we are creating Runtime encryption. Recognized by Gartner's Cool Vendor we came number two in RSA Innovation Sandbox you know hundreds of security companies. We have several S&P 500 customers already so we are deployed in their products and environment, we are securing trillions of dollars of assets in realtime. Our goal is to convince CIA to run their most prestigious most sensitive applications on some untrusted cloud in some enemy country. >> Laughs >> It's a long shot >> Are you doing like a POC of something like that with them? Are you in active conversations or is that more of kind of a philosophical goal? >> I cannot confirm of deny that >> Okay, fair enough >> But that's our goal. And until we achieve that, we have something to keep working on. >> Okay. And then where do you guys sit kind of in the world of public clouds with AWS and Azure and Google versus either private (mumbles) or multiple clouds inside the company or you know some of these other kind of options like we hear like the Equinix which I think is one of the places >> Yeah >> How's that work? >> Yeah So our goal is to extricate security from infrastructure So in the end, our goal is that infrastructure will provide you compute cycles and the security will come from the customers, end customers who are developing the applications and deploying the applications. >> Right >> So its cloud agnostic security so meaning that we will go after on-prem customers, we'll go after public cloud, colo and all of that >> Right >> So in the meantime for our go-to market what we did was we partnered with two of really well known strong forces in the industry, one is IBM Cloud >> Yeah where IBM is putting this servers and running our technology and with Equinix, which is world's largest data provider and so if you are in any of the public cloud, if you are in IBM cloud you get our security by default so you are continuous running encryption >> Right >> Isolated from all the threats that might be there, or if you are in some other public cloud you can use it Equinix colo so if you have some applications that you don't want to be hacked you can use our SAS service to run those applications encrypted. >> Right And of course Equinix has got the direct connect to all the public clouds >> Yeah >> So minimum latency integration >> Couple of milliseconds. >> with all the other stuff >> in the public cloud. >> Yeah exactly. So what's the expense, both kind of the overhead expense on the computing side to do this when it's done properly and then what's the expense to run this is this something that is expensive can only be used for the most critical applications, or do you see this several times being more general purpose execution? >> So its will be used to secure anything that you don't want to be hacked and the cost of using Runtime encryption is minimal so I expect it to be wisely adopted and we make it really easy for developers and security organizations to use this technology. So you have to bring in your container and then Fortanix process attaches to your container you don't need to recompile your source code we never get to look at your source code there's no binary transfers nothing like that. And then so it's a simple millisecond long process and we give you modified container and now you can take this modified container run on any cloud you want and if it runs it runs securely. From that point onwards. >> Right And today you just have to make sure its got right microprocessor >> Yeah and in the future hopefully that will be more general purpose. >> Yeah >> Alright So what's next? What are you working on, what's a priority for the balance of 2018? >> Yeah, so we have lots of integration work going on VIA World is coming next week We have support for something called Kermit that allows you to secure your estorial box v send et cetera with Fortanix. Now we are also running integration with some data bases some multi party computers and things like that. So our goal is to make our technology more widely available to a large variety of customers. >> Alight, well Ambuj very interesting story, Encryption at Runtime so >> Yeah >> So we look forward to watching the story unfold. >> Awesome, yeah This is a decade long journey and I think when we have done infrastructure security will be irrelevant. So its going to be very exciting for all the parties involved. >> Alright, we'll keep eye, thanks for stopping by. >> Thanks >> Alrighty, Ambuj Kumar You're watching theCube from our Palo Alto studios See you next time. And thanks for watching. (epic orchestra music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCube. Covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE exclusive coverage of CNCF. The Cloud Native Foundation, Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation of KubeCon 2018 here in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier co-host of theCUBE here with analyst this week Lauren Cooney, who is the founder of Spark Labs, brand new start up that she founded to help companies bring innovation to Cloud Native, bring in all of her expertise to companies. Also, here on theCUBE, Lauren, great to have you this week. >> Thanks, John. >> Here in Europe, you've done so much work in the area of open source over the years. You've done, you were radical renegade, progressive, pushing PHP, bringing that to Microsoft. Doing a lot of great things, and now we're in a new modern era, and you're bringing that expertise, but you're also on the front lines of the new wave. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Cloud Native, so what's your take? What's your analysis? I mean, there's so much going on. You can't just retrofit old school open source, but it's got to build on the next generation. What's your thoughts? >> It has to build on the next generation, but you also have to look back at what has happened in the past. I think what is incredibly important to see is the mistakes that have been made in the past, so that people don't repeat them. One of the things that I'm seeing here and hearing a lot about is multiple distributions of Kubernetes out there, and when I hear multiple distributions I get worried that they're going the open sack route and there is going to be too many distributions out there. I would rather see one or two standard become kind of more standard and people building on top of that. I think it's the right way to go versus the splintering of the community. If the community is going to stay together you're going to have to narrow that down. >> What's the rationale for the distribution? Because, we've seen this before. Certainly at Hadoop, we saw people come out with distros and then abandon them, and then people coalesce around. >> Oh, they'll just die on the vine. I mean, fundamentally they just will die on the vine. It won't be, if it's not de facto already you're probably not going to get it de facto. >> John: What should companies do? Should they have a distro down. >> They should map to one of the key distros right now. They should, basically, use what is out there already. The one that they feel is right, and for their users, and for their company long term. >> I really enjoyed a couple of interviews we had yesterday. I want to just kind of revisit a couple of them. Tyler and Dirk, we had Tyler on from the new programming language ballerina that was launched. He's part of WSO2. Dirk is from Vien, where former early Linux guy, Linux foundation guy, worked with Linux tarballs in the early days. These guys know up the source. So you look at some of those leaders, and they say, "Hey, this is about the people" What are the things that we can draw from the past that are still relevant today? As the new formula of Kubernetes horizontally scalable cloud, Cloud Native thousands and, potentially, millions of micro-services coming online, new kinds of dynamic policy based infrastructure software, everything's coming. >> Service mesh, can't forget service mesh. >> Service meshes are going to be huge. What do we have to keep and preserve, and what is being built out that's new? >> Well, I think that you need to preserve the feeling of the community and what's going on there. I mean, these communities, actually it's communities not community, and these folks are coming along for the wave right? And I think it's important to make sure that people are aware of that, and there's lots of different personalities and lots of different goodness that can be brought to the table with that and the recognition of that. I also think that, for the most part, I do believe that this is one of the strongest communities out there, and it will continue to be for a number of years. >> I want to get your thoughts on something Ed Warnicke said from Cisco because he was very complimentary of the CNCF as are other people, and we have been complimentary as well about keeping everything tight to the core and allowing people to innovate. So you have, and we have commented on theCUBE and other KubeCons about this, and they've been doing it, which is let the innovation foster on the technical side as well as let people flex their business model opportunities. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Not so much just for the sake of commercialization because if you have too much commercialization you might stunt the community of growth organically so there's a balance, and I think CNCF has done a good job there, but they've kept the core of Kubernetes really tight which has allowed the de facto standard approach to be Kubernetes. That has created great opportunity, and people are super excited by that. What's your analysis of what happens next? What needs to happen? What's the momentum phase two of this? >> I think part of it is, how do you monetize, right? It's looking at, and this is part of what Spark Labs actually does, is we actually work with companies, some that are in the CNCF, and we work on them in different ways to monetize. Is it a services wrapper that's going to work? Is it additional features or functionality? The innovation comes with the technology, but with that technology you have to have the business model kind of in mind when you're building this out so you can figure out how to make money. As these smaller companies especially are looking to do and some of the bigger companies as well. >> I really think it's important for the CNCF and the Linux foundation and I know they're on this so its not critical analysis so much as it is more of an observation. You have a long tail of start ups and kind of a fat tail if you will, that are out there, and you have the big whales out there Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and others at the top. There was a comment in Austin, a snarky comment. I won't say by who, but I was looking at the logo board of the sponsors, and the guy said, "All those start-ups, they might be dead in 18 months" and it made me pause and say okay, that's an observation because they were brand new companies. >> Lauren: Mm hmm. >> That can't happen. We need to have a model of preservation for start-ups to experiment, to grow. This is something you're doing at Spark Labs so what's your view of this? And, reaction to the fact that this has to happen. What can we do as an industry and community to make sure the start ups-- >> I think the Linux foundation is doing one of the best things that can be done out there. Other open source foundations do too. Is they create the infrastructure so that folks have the support for marketing, or legal, or something along those lines, but so companies are allowed to innovate and then the Linux Foundation basically bets on the innovation and they bet on multiple innovations with multiple companies so they allow these companies to thrive while giving them the support inside of that. >> John: Yeah. >> And I think that's really helping a lot of these companies along. >> Well, Dave Collins always says is the membership organization, so no members no business model so I mean they're incented to make sure that, or hope, that these guys can survive, and certainly there's going to be some misfires and people will natural evolution. So what are you most excited about? I got to ask ya, I mean you're out on your own now. Congratulations, you started up. >> Thank you. >> Super exciting for you and I'm happy that you're going to go out on your own. What are some of the things you're excited about? What are you digging your teeth into, in terms of projects? Share what you're doing. >> I'm super excited about these companies that are coming out with true multi-cloud. So, allowing applications to run across multiple environments, public, private, et cetera. And we've been saying we can do it for a decade or something like that, but fundamentally that wasn't the case. You did have to re-write code. You did have to do a lot of underlying things to make that occur. One of the things that I'm super excited about is being able to take those companies and figure out how to actually get their product to market faster. Some of these guys are still in stealth. They need to move really fast if they want to catch up. I also love working with them on figuring out how to build out their teams, figuring out how to monetize. What are the next steps? What are the business plans, really, behind this? What is the one, three, five year model that they're going to use? I also love helping them get the money, of course. I think that's the fun part too. >> Yeah, it's always fun. Start-ups are great. What I'm excited about, I got to tell ya, I got to share with you just some personal feelings. I love this market right now because I've seen many waves of innovation and I think this wave of cloud native, whatever you want to call it this massive wave or sets of waves coming in and you got blockchain and other things going on behind it these centralized applications which I think is part of this set coming in, is that it's bigger than all the other waves combined and because there's so much value creation on the horizon and I think historically, this moment in time, historically is going to be a point we're going to look back and say the Kubernetes de facto standard galvanized a set of industry, a new card of players who are going to establish a new way methodology of doing things, and we're documenting it. Secondly, the role of community, as you pointed out, is so important here, and it's strong, but now we're living in a new age of digital. We're seeing formations of new kinds of community engagement digitally, not just the events, so I'm excited with theCUBE and what we're doing here, and what the Linux Foundation is doing because there's now going to be, potentially, exponential growth and acceleration around the combination of community. >> Yup. >> The community growth with this new modern commercialization on digital. >> It's definitely increasingly important, and you have to look at it from the technologies making it happen. The technology is looking at, edge computing is going to make digital happen really when you look at all the end points and things along those lines. And, I think that it's going to be great for everyone involved in that. >> Yeah, and we can learn a lot from looking at the Facebook example of how fake news swayed the election. How people were weaponizing content for bad things. There's also an opposite effect, we believe that you can do the for good. >> Lauren: Totally agree. >> I think digital will have a big role in the next generation community formations, community growth, short cuts to the truth, really that's what it's all about. It's about the people, so certainly we're going to be documenting it. Thanks for your commentary. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Appreciate it, great to work with you this week. Day two of exclusive coverage, here at the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation's, CNCF's KubeCon 2018. This is where Kubernetes, service mesh, Istio a lot of great projects, from a lot of smart people. We're here on the ground covering it live. Day two, we'll be back with more coverage. Stay with us for day two coverage, after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Nassau in the Bahamas it's The Cube covering Polycon 18 brought to you Polymath. >> Hello, welcome to The Cube for a special Cube event, our first kick off for our cryptocurrency, Blockchain, decentralized computing world that we know as Bitcoin, Ethereum, Blockchain and all the rest. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. We're here previewing the conference/\. We'll be live tomorrow and Friday but were here down getting ready for the big festivities which is tonight's opening keynotes. We had the co-founder of Ethereum, Anthony Diiorio, and then Brock Pierce coming on. He also is a chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation. Luminaries as well as a bunch of other great guests, Bill Tai from California, a friend of The Cube's. This is a game changing event, Dave. You and I have talked about this on The Cube many times. The waves of innovation come, you know, this big once in a generation, maybe centuries. We're seeing one that I think is not as even big as the other ones, bigger. You combine the PC Revolution. I was just texting Michael Dell earlier today and said, "This feels like the PC Revolution." A bunch of pioneers coming together but it's got a different vibe. It's bigger. It's like the combination of the internet and PC Revolution all rolled into one with a community vibe on it. So, and we're going to have tons of coverage on this. What I want to ask you, Dave, directly is you've seen many waves and we work with and we cover some of the old guard, older companies like Dell EMC, HPE, Oracle, IBM, Microsoft and they're doing really good work pivoting and trying to be ready for this new wave. It's just on Blockchain, it's just how the world works, Cloud, you know, IoT but decentralized cannot be ignored. So, some think this is a blind spot to these legacy and emerging vendors changing vendors like Oracle and IBM and HPE and Dell Technologies. Are they ready? Do you think they're ready? Do you think they even understand what's coming? And people squabble over Cloud market share and it's just funny, right? It's like there's a bigger thing coming over the top. >> Well, first thing I got to say is I got to give you props as my partner because you've been covering, you know, Blockchain, Bitcoin on SiliconANGLE since I don't know -- >> John: 2010. >> 2010, when I first met you, right. And so once again you are sort of ahead of the curve. I feel like we're at our first Hadoop World, you know, back in 2010. And so, props to you and the SiliconeANGLE team. To answer your question, no. No, they're not ready and to me it's not even about just Blockchain. I mean, Blockchain technology they can adopt. The bigger issue is digital disruption. And digital disruption is all about the data at the core of the organization and business models that are built around data. And if you think about the history of companies, it's human expertise and data's bolted on. We've seen this time and time again but if you look at the top five market cap companies, Facebook, Amazon, Google, et cetera, they're data companies. Data is at the center and they take human expertise and wrap it around there. So, the future is going to be about innovation with data, with artificial intelligence and Cloud economics and the old guard doesn't have those things. Blockchain fits in there. To me Blockchain is about building out a new distributed web and on top of the old web and rewarding those who were building it. So, it's a new form open-source where the builders get paid. >> But it's also decentralized and you have a value store, value creation capture model that has all the wrappings of what we traditionally see in a centralized database or even Cloud. You need networks, you need storage, you need databases, you need tokens, which is a form of data. So token economics, I mean, it's a new value economy, Dave. I mean, I just don't, I feel like the, I just, from my perspective, I just don't think those guys are seeing it. >> No and so it's not only those guys. It's the most of the world. I mean, you turn on CNBC and Buffet's on there saying this is going to end badly and there's negative, you know, trade press about, you know, Bitcoin and Silk Road and all that stuff. What most of the world is missing, and that makes people run away, but this is happening, it's real. It's going be the foundation for a next generation internet. It's happening, you see it all the time. Developers built the internet. Developers are going to rebuild the internet on top of this. So, I would suggest that people just try to squint through or squint passed the negative press and try to really understand what this trend is all about and how it's going to fundamentally change the internet and change the world. >> Well, there's negative press that's worthy. There's a lot of scams out there. There's security issues >> Sure >> but these are evolutionary problem spaces that can be solved. One, the scammers are going to be vetted out, the bubble bursting but the real value, creation is going to come from developers and that, to me, is what I hear you saying as your main point. >> No question about it. And I think that that, you know, there's lots of challenges. This stuff is not easy. First of all, who would've ever thought that something like Ethereum could even have been built, this kind of distributed infrastructure? I mean, it's very, very challenging. Of course we know about the scaling problems, the latency issues, all that stuff but these are problems that smart people are going to go attack and solve. And again I emphasize, it's the new form of, remember the old open systems, right? Unix and open systems. Well fast forward passed open-source, which the internet was built on open-source. Think about Linnux, everything's built on Linnux. But today developers who are building these new protocols are actually going to get paid to that. Guys like Anthony, you know, who made hundreds of millions -- >> Anthony Diiorio, co-founder of Ethereum, doing Jaxx wallet as part of Decentral. Great use case. He's paying it forward and I think the community here is a real dynamic and I think what we learned at The Cube, Dave, is the communities matter and now, more than ever they're actually having an input. Look what open-source has done to the software business over the past three decades, okay? Completely revolutionized the world we live in. So if you take the open-source apply those principals to, whether it's content media or decentralized infrastructure and applications, it's going to be a haven of innovation. >> Well and if you think about this, too, folks. Is that, you know, the centralized model has essentially co-opted all this innovation in the last 15 years, right? They've won. Closed won, Facebook won, they killed RSS. >> Well, Facebook's not winning now. They're under a lot of pressure because they screwed the election over and the data that they're using, some will argue, that, when I use Facebook, okay? Facebook's great, I get a free app, I let them have my data 'cause I want to connect with my friends but they're throwing elections off. I didn't bargain for that. The context has changed. So, to me, the shift of user data is going to move into the hands of the users. Do you agree with that statement? >> Yes, no question. And the other thing, just to finish my thought -- >> That's not good for Facebook. >> And we've talked about this, John. Protocol and development has stagnated, you know? Gmail is built on SMTP, you know, HTTP, DNS, these are all protocols that were developed by governments, and academia and the big guys just co-opted them and so, protocol development stagnated. What you need to understand about Blockchain is it bring back innovation -- >> Well, Anthony Diiorio said on my interview with him, one-on-one, that protocol developers are the most in demand role because those big guys take in co-oping those protocols, Dave, as you pointed out, is causing a revolution. It's almost like the 60s for tech. It's like there is a ground swell. I see it, I feel it. Not just a wave of innovation but the actors and the people involved look at this as a liberating opportunity to free the centralized forces that are quite frankly holding the world back. >> And I want to, this is very important and it was really epiphany when it hit me, is if you wanted to invest in TCP/IP, back in the day, how would you do that? You couldn't invest in TCP/IP. You could maybe invest in companies -- >> John: Cisco. (laughs) >> Yeah, can invest in companies. Okay, but you and I couldn't have gotten in early on Cisco, right? It was all the insiders. Today, developers who are building out these protocols, they can own the protocol. That's a form of investment and they got, essentially, equity in that token. >> Dave, we're going to be doing a lot of crypto shows and Blockchain shows because we're talking about the decentralization of the world. This is the future of our globe and work and play. What are you looking for, as we go down and knock down these shows, as The Cube goes out on this new mission? >> Well, I think Anthony kind of hinted at this. Is he's looking at infrastructure. It's like the early days of the internet with, you know, the pickaxe guys, you know, made all the money. It's the infrastructure that's getting built out. So, I want to see how that develops and how that sets the foundation, the platform for distributed applications, number one. Number two is I want to understand some of these challenges and how they're going to be addressed. The scaling issues, the latency problems, some of the, you know, nitty gritty technical challenges, who's working on those? And the third is, what's the right investment profile? How are the investors at this conference and other conferences going about deciding what to invest in? Right? How do they squint through quality and garbage? >> Well, I'm going to be heading to a special investor event. Dave, I'm going to put my ear to the ground and of course The Cube will go wherever it takes to get the story, whether it's the Bahamas. Not a bad gig here but important. We're going to get the most important stories and share that with you. And continue our mission of getting this content out in the open, shining the light on relevance and the right reputable people. Dave, always great. >> Thanks, John. >> And looking forward to a great week. (techno music)