>> Instructor: "theCUBE" presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain and we're at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, and my co-host, Enrico Signoretti. Enrico's really proud of me. I've called him Enrico instead of Enrique every session. >> Every day. >> Senior IT analyst at GigaOm. We're talking to fantastic builders at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2022 about the projects and their efforts. Enrico, up to this point, it's been all about provisioning, insecurity, what conversation have we been missing? >> Well, I mean, I think that we passed the point of having the conversation of deployment, of provisioning. Everybody's very skilled, actually everything is done at day two. They are discovering that, well, there is a security problem. There is an observability problem a and in fact, we are meeting with a lot of people and there are a lot of conversation with people really needing to understand what is happening. I mean, in their cluster work, why it is happening and all the questions that come with it. And the more I talk with people in the show floor here or even in the various sessions is about, we are growing so that our clusters are becoming bigger and bigger, applications are becoming bigger as well. So we need to now understand better what is happening. As it's not only about cost, it's about everything at the end. >> So I think that's a great set up for our guests, Matt Provo, founder and CEO of StormForge and Patrick Brixton? >> Bergstrom. >> Bergstrom. >> Yeah. >> I spelled it right, I didn't say it right, Bergstrom, CTO. We're at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon where projects are discussed, built and StormForge, I've heard the pitch before, so forgive me. And I'm kind of torn. I have service mesh. What do I need more, like what problem is StormForge solving? >> You want to take it? >> Sure, absolutely. So it's interesting because, my background is in the enterprise, right? I was an executive at UnitedHealth Group before that I worked at Best Buy and one of the issues that we always had was, especially as you migrate to the cloud, it seems like the CPU dial or the memory dial is your reliability dial. So it's like, oh, I just turned that all the way to the right and everything's hunky-dory, right? But then we run into the issue like you and I were just talking about, where it gets very very expensive very quickly. And so my first conversations with Matt and the StormForge group, and they were telling me about the product and what we're dealing with. I said, that is the problem statement that I have always struggled with and I wish this existed 10 years ago when I was dealing with EC2 costs, right? And now with Kubernetes, it's the same thing. It's so easy to provision. So realistically what it is, is we take your raw telemetry data and we essentially monitor the performance of your application, and then we can tell you using our machine learning algorithms, the exact configuration that you should be using for your application to achieve the results that you're looking for without over-provisioning. So we reduce your consumption of CPU, of memory and production which ultimately nine times out of 10, actually I would say 10 out of 10, reduces your cost significantly without sacrificing reliability. >> So can your solution also help to optimize the application in the long run? Because, yes, of course-- >> Yep. >> The lowering fluid as you know optimize the deployment. >> Yeah. >> But actually the long-term is optimizing the application. >> Yes. >> Which is the real problem. >> Yep. >> So, we're fine with the former of what you just said, but we exist to do the latter. And so, we're squarely and completely focused at the application layer. As long as you can track or understand the metrics you care about for your application, we can optimize against it. We love that we don't know your application, we don't know what the SLA and SLO requirements are for your app, you do, and so, in our world it's about empowering the developer into the process, not automating them out of it and I think sometimes AI and machine learning sort of gets a bad rap from that standpoint. And so, at this point the company's been around since 2016, kind of from the very early days of Kubernetes, we've always been, squarely focused on Kubernetes, using our core machine learning engine to optimize metrics at the application layer that people care about and need to go after. And the truth of the matter is today and over time, setting a cluster up on Kubernetes has largely been solved. And yet the promise of Kubernetes around portability and flexibility, downstream when you operationalize, the complexity smacks you in the face and that's where StormForge comes in. And so we're a vertical, kind of vertically oriented solution, that's absolutely focused on solving that problem. >> Well, I don't want to play, actually. I want to play the devils advocate here and-- >> You wouldn't be a good analyst if you didn't. >> So the problem is when you talk with clients, users, there are many of them still working with Java, something that is really tough. I mean, all of us loved Java. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Maybe 20 years ago. Yeah, but not anymore, but still they have developers, they have porting applications, microservices. Yes, but not very optimized, et cetera, cetera, et cetera. So it's becoming tough. So how you can interact with this kind of old hybrid or anyway, not well engineered applications. >> Yeah. >> We do that today. We actually, part of our platform is we offer performance testing in a lower environment and stage and we, like Matt was saying, we can use any metric that you care about and we can work with any configuration for that application. So perfect example is Java, you have to worry about your heap size, your garbage collection tuning and one of the things that really struck me very early on about the StormForge product is because it is true machine learning. You remove the human bias from that. So like a lot of what I did in the past, especially around SRE and performance tuning, we were only as good as our humans were because of what they knew. And so, we kind of got stuck in these paths of making the same configuration adjustments, making the same changes to the application, hoping for different results. But then when you apply machine learning capability to that the machine will recommend things you never would've dreamed of. And you get amazing results out of that. >> So both me and Enrico have been doing this for a long time. Like, I have battled to my last breath the argument when it's a bare metal or a VM, look, I cannot give you any more memory. >> Yeah. >> And the argument going all the way up to the CIO and the CIO basically saying, you know what, Keith you're cheap, my developer resources are expensive, buy bigger box. >> Yeah. >> Yap. >> Buying a bigger box in the cloud to your point is no longer a option because it's just expensive. >> Yeah. >> Talk to me about the carrot or the stick as developers are realizing that they have to be more responsible. Where's the culture change coming from? Is it the shift in responsibility? >> I think the center of the bullseye for us is within those sets of decisions, not in a static way, but in an ongoing way, especially as the development of applications becomes more and more rapid and the management of them. Our charge and our belief wholeheartedly is that you shouldn't have to choose. You should not have to choose between costs or performance. You should not have to choose where your applications live, in a public private or hybrid cloud environment. And so, we want to empower people to be able to sit in the middle of all of that chaos and for those trade offs and those difficult interactions to no longer be a thing. We're at a place now where we've done hundreds of deployments and never once have we met a developer who said, "I'm really excited to get out of bed and come to work every day and manually tune my application." One side, secondly, we've never met, a manager or someone with budget that said, please don't increase the value of my investment that I've made to lift and shift us over to the cloud or to Kubernetes or some combination of both. And so what we're seeing is the converging of these groups, their happy place is the lack of needing to be able to make those trade offs, and that's been exciting for us. >> So, I'm listening and looks like that your solution is right in the middle in application performance, management, observability. >> Yeah. >> And, monitoring. >> Yeah. >> So it's a little bit of all of this. >> Yeah, so we want to be, the intel inside of all of that, we often get lumped into one of those categories, it used to be APM a lot, we sometimes get, are you observability or and we're really not any of those things, in and of themselves, but we instead we've invested in deep integrations and partnerships with a lot of that tooling 'cause in a lot of ways, the tool chain is hardening in a cloud native and in Kubernetes world. And so, integrating in intelligently, staying focused and great at what we solve for, but then seamlessly partnering and not requiring switching for our users who have already invested likely, in a APM or observability. >> So to go a little bit deeper. What does it mean integration? I mean, do you provide data to this, other applications in the environment or are they supporting you in the work that you do. >> Yeah, we're a data consumer for the most part. In fact, one of our big taglines is take your observability and turn it into action ability, right? Like how do you take that, it's one thing to collect all of the data, but then how do you know what to do with it, right? So to Matt's point, we integrate with folks like Datadog, we integrate with Prometheus today. So we want to collect that telemetry data and then do something useful with it for you. >> But also we want Datadog customers, for example, we have a very close partnership with Datadog so that in your existing Datadog dashboard, now you have-- >> Yeah. >> The StormForge capability showing up in the same location. >> Yep. >> And so you don't have to switch out. >> So I was just going to ask, is it a push pull? What is the developer experience when you say you provide developer this resolve ML learnings about performance, how do they receive it? Like, what's the developer experience. >> They can receive it, for a while we were CLI only, like any good developer tool. >> Right. >> And, we have our own UI. And so it is a push in a lot of cases where I can come to one spot, I've got my applications and every time I'm going to release or plan for a release or I have released and I want to pull in observability data from a production standpoint, I can visualize all of that within the StormForge UI and platform, make decisions, we allow you to set your, kind of comfort level of automation that you're okay with. You can be completely set and forget or you can be somewhere along that spectrum and you can say, as long as it's within, these thresholds, go ahead and release the application or go ahead and apply the configuration. But we also allow you to experience the same, a lot of the same functionality right now, in Grafana, in Datadog and a bunch of others that are coming. >> So I've talked to Tim Crawford who talks to a lot of CIOs and he's saying one of the biggest challenges or if not, one of the biggest challenges CIOs are facing are resource constraints. >> Yeah. >> They cannot find the developers to begin with to get this feedback. How are you hoping to address this biggest pain point for CIOs-- >> Yeah.6 >> And developers? >> You should take that one. >> Yeah, absolutely. So like my background, like I said at UnitedHealth Group, right. It's not always just about cost savings. In fact, the way that I look about at some of these tech challenges, especially when we talk about scalability there's kind of three pillars that I consider, right? There's the tech scalability, how am I solving those challenges? There's the financial piece 'cause you can only throw money at a problem for so long and it's the same thing with the human piece. I can only find so many bodies and right now that pool is very small, and so, we are absolutely squarely in that footprint of we enable your team to focus on the things that they matter, not manual tuning like Matt said. And then there are other resource constraints that I think that a lot of folks don't talk about too. Like, you were talking about private cloud for instance and so having a physical data center, I've worked with physical data centers that companies I've worked for have owned where it is literally full, wall to wall. You can't rack any more servers in it, and so their biggest option is, well, I could spend $1.2 billion to build a new one if I wanted to, or if you had a capability to truly optimize your compute to what you needed and free up 30% of your capacity of that data center. So you can deploy additional name spaces into your cluster, like that's a huge opportunity. >> So I have another question. I mean, maybe it doesn't sound very intelligent at this point, but, so is it an ongoing process or is it something that you do at the very beginning, I mean you start deploying this. >> Yeah. >> And maybe as a service. >> Yep. >> Once in a year I say, okay, let's do it again and see if something change it. >> Sure. >> So one spot, one single.. >> Yeah, would you recommend somebody performance test just once a year? Like, so that's my thing is, at previous roles, my role was to do performance test every single release, and that was at a minimum once a week and if your thing did not get faster, you had to have an executive exception to get it into production and that's the space that we want to live in as well as part of your CICD process, like this should be continuous verification, every time you deploy, we want to make sure that we're recommending the perfect configuration for your application in the name space that you're deploying into. >> And I would be as bold as to say that we believe that we can be a part of adding, actually adding a step in the CICD process that's connected to optimization and that no application should be released, monitored, and sort of analyzed on an ongoing basis without optimization being a part of that. And again, not just from a cost perspective, but for cost and performance. >> Almost a couple of hundred vendors on this floor. You mentioned some of the big ones Datadog, et cetera, but what happens when one of the up and comings out of nowhere, completely new data structure, some imaginative way to click to telemetry data. >> Yeah. >> How do, how do you react to that? >> Yeah, to us it's zeros and ones. >> Yeah. >> And, we really are data agnostic from the standpoint of, we're fortunate enough from the design of our algorithm standpoint, it doesn't get caught up on data structure issues, as long as you can capture it and make it available through one of a series of inputs, one would be load or performance tests, could be telemetry, could be observability, if we have access to it. Honestly, the messier the better from time to time from a machine learning standpoint, it's pretty powerful to see. We've never had a deployment where we saved less than 30%, while also improving performance by at least 10%. But the typical results for us are 40 to 60% savings and 30 to 40% improvement in performance. >> And what happens if the application is, I mean, yes Kubernetes is the best thing of the world but sometimes we have to, external data sources or, we have to connect with external services anyway. >> Yeah. >> So, can you provide an indication also on this particular application, like, where the problem could be? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and that's absolutely one of the things that we look at too, 'cause it's, especially when you talk about resource consumption it's never a flat line, right? Like depending on your application, depending on the workloads that you're running it varies from sometimes minute to minute, day to day, or it could be week to week even. And so, especially with some of the products that we have coming out with what we want to do, integrating heavily with the HPA and being able to handle some of those bumps and not necessarily bumps, but bursts and being able to do it in a way that's intelligent so that we can make sure that, like I said, it's the perfect configuration for the application regardless of the time of day that you're operating in or what your traffic patterns look like, or, what your disc looks like, right. Like 'cause with our low environment testing, any metric you throw at us, we can optimize for. >> So Matt and Patrick, thank you for stopping by. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> We can go all day because day two is I think the biggest challenge right now, not just in Kubernetes but application re-platforming and transformation, very, very difficult. Most CTOs and EASs that I talked to, this is the challenge space. From Valencia, Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host Enrico Signoretti and you're watching "theCube" the leader in high-tech coverage. (whimsical music)

(upbeat music) >> We're back. This is Dave Vellante of theCUBE, and we're here with Ray Wang, who just wrote a book reminiscent of the famous Tears for Fears song, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a World of Digital Giants. Ray, great to see again, man. >> What's going on, man, how are you? >> Oh great, thanks for coming on. You know, it was crazy, been crazy, but it's good to see you face-to-face. >> Ray: This is, we're in the flesh, it's live, we're having conversations, and the information that we're getting is cut right. >> Dave: Yeah, so why did you write this book and how did you find the time? >> Hey, we're in the middle of pandemic. No, I wrote the book because what was happening was digital transformation efforts, they're starting to pop up, but companies weren't always succeeding. And something was happening with digital giants that was very different. They were winning in the marketplace. And never in the form of, if you think about extreme capitalism, if we think about capitalism in general, never in the history of capitalism have we seen growth of large companies. They get large, they fall apart, they don't have anything to build, they can't scale. Their organizations are in shambles. But what happened? If you look at 2017, the combined market cap of the FAANGs and Microsoft was 2 trillion. Today, it is almost 10.2 trillion. It's quintupled. That's never happened. And there's something behind that business model that they put into place that others have copied, from the Airbnbs to the Robloxes to what's going to happen with like a Starlink, and of course, the Robinhoods and you know, Robinhoods and Coinbases of the world. >> And the fundamental premise is all around data, right? Putting data at the core, if you don't do that, you're going to fly blind. >> It is and the secret behind that is the long-term platforms called data-driven digital networks. These platforms take the ability, large memberships, our large devices, they look at that effect. Then they look at figuring out how to actually win on data supremacy. And then of course, they monetize off that data. And that's really the secret behind that is you've got to build that capability and what they do really well is they dis-intermediate customer account control. They take the relationships, aggregate them together. So food delivery app companies are great example of that. You know, small businesses are out there that hundreds and thousands of customers. Today, what happens? Well, they've been aggregated. Millions of customers together into food delivery app. >> Well, I think, you know, this is really interesting what you're saying, because if you think about how we deal with Netflix, we don't call the Netflix sales department or the marketing department of the service, just one interface, the Netflix. So they've been able to put data at their core. Can incumbents do that? How can they do that? >> Incumbents can definitely do that. And it's really about figuring out how to automate that capture. What you really want to do is you start in the cloud, you bring the data together, and you start putting the three A's, analytics, automation, and AI are what you have to be able to put into place. And when you do do that, you now have the ability to go out and figure out how to create that flywheel effect inside those data-driven digital networks. These DDDNS are important. So in Netflix, what are they capturing? They're looking at sentiment, they're looking at context. Like why did you interact with, you know, one title versus another? Did you watch Ted Lasso? Did you switch out of Apple TV to Netflix? Well, I want to know why, right? Did you actually jump into another category? You switched into genres. After 10:00 p.m., what are you watching? Maybe something very different than what you're watching at 2:00 p.m.. How many members are in the home, right? All these questions are being answered and that's the business graph behind all this. >> How much of this is kind of related to the way organizations or companies are organized? In other words, you think about, historically, they would maybe put the process at the core or the, in a bottling plant, the manufacturing facility at the core and the data's all dispersed. Everybody talks about silos. So will AI be the answer to that? Will some new database, Snowflake? Is that the answer? What's the answer to sort of bringing that data together and how do you deal with the organizational inertia? >> Well, the trick to it is really to have a single plane to be able to access that data. I don't care where the data sits, whether it's on premise, whether it's in the cloud, whether it's in the edge, it makes no difference. That's really what you want to be able to do is bring that information together. But the glue is the context. What time was it? What's the weather outside? What location are you in? What's your heart rate? Are you smiling, right? All of those factors come into play. And what we're trying to do is take a user, right? So it could be a customer, a supplier, a partner, or an employee. And how do they interact with an order doc, an invoice, an incident, and then apply the context. And what we're doing is mining that context and information. Now, the more, back to your other point on self service and automation, the more you can actually collect those data points, the more you can capture that context, the more you're able to get to refine that information. >> Context, that's interesting, because if you think about our operational systems, we've contextualized most of them, whether it's sales, marketing, logistics, but we haven't really contextualized our data systems, our data architecture. It's generally run by a technical group. They don't necessarily have the line of business context. You see what HPE is doing today is trying to be inclusive of data on prem. I mentioned Snowflake, they're saying no way. Frank Slootman says we're not going on prem. So that's kind of interesting. So how do you see sort of context evolving with the actually the business line? Not only who has the context actually can, I hate to use the word, but I'm going to, own the data. >> You have to have a data to decisions pathway. That data decisions pathway is you start with all types of data, structured, unstructured, semi-structured, you align it to a business process as an issue, issue to resolution, order to cash, procure to pay, hire to retire. You bring that together, and then you start mining and figuring out what patterns exist. Once you have the patterns, you can then figure out the next best action. And when you get the next best action, you can compete on decisions. And that becomes a very important part. That decision piece, that's going to be automated. And when we think about that, you and I make a decision one per second, how long does it get out of management committee? Could be a week, two weeks, a quarter, a year. It takes forever to get anything out of management committee. But these new systems, if you think about machines, can make decisions a hundred times per second, a thousand times per second. And that's what we're competing against. That asymmetry is the decision velocity. How quickly you can make decisions will be a competitive weapon. >> Is there a dissonance between the fact that you just mentioned, speed, compressing, that sort of time to decision, and the flip side of that coin, quality, security, governance. How do you see squaring that circle? >> Well, that's really why we're going to have to make that, that's the automated, that's the AI piece. Just like we have all types of data, we got to spew up automated ontologies, we got to spit them up, we got to be using, we've got to put them back into play, and then we got to be able to take back into action. And so you want enterprise class capabilities. That's your data quality. That's your security. That's the data governance. That's the ability to actually take that data and understand time series, and actually make sure that the integrity of that data is there. >> What do you think about this sort of notion that increasingly, people are going to be building data products and services that can be monetized? And that's kind of goes back to context, the business lines kind of being responsible for their own data, not having to get permission to add another data source. Do you see that trend? Do you see that decentralization trend? Two-part question. And where do you see HPE fitting into that? >> I see, one, that that trend is definitely going to exist. I'll give you an example. I can actually destroy the top two television manufacturers in the world in less than five years. I could take them out of the business and I'll show you how to do it. So I'm going to make you an offer. $15 per month for the next five years. I'm going to give you a 72 inch, is it 74? 75 inch, 75 inch smart TV, 4k, big TV, right? And it comes with a warranty. And if anything breaks, I'm going to return it to you in 48 hours or less with a brand new one. I don't want your personal information. I'm only going to monitor performance data. I want to know the operations. I want to know which supplier lied to me, which components are working, what features you use. I don't need to know your personal viewing habits, okay? Would you take that deal? >> TV is a service, sure, of course I would. >> 15 bucks and I'm going to make you a better deal. For $25 a month, you get to make an upgrade anytime during that five-year period. What would happen to the two largest TV manufacturers if I did that? >> Yeah, they'd be disrupted. Now, you obviously have a pile of VC money that you're going to do that. Will you ever make money at that model? >> Well, here's why I'll get there and I'll explain. What's going to happen is I lock them out of the market for four to five years. I'm going to take 50 to 60% of the market. Yes, I got to raise $10 billion to figure out how to do that. But that's not really what happens at the end. I become a data company because I have warranty data. I'm going to buy a company that does, you know, insurance like in Asurion. I'm going to get break/fix data from like a Best Buy or a company like that. I'm going to get at safety data from an underwriter's lab. It's a competition for data. And suddenly, I know those habits better than anyone else. I'm going to go do other things more than the TV. I'm not done with the TV. I'm going to do your entire kitchen. For $100 a month, I'll do a mid range. For like $500 a month, I'm going to take your dish washer, your washer, your dryer, your refrigerator, your range. And I'll do like Miele, Gaggenau, right? If you want to go down Viking, Wolf, I'll do it for $450 a month for the next 10 years. By year five, I have better insurance information than the insurance companies from warranty. And I can even make that deal portable. You see where we're going? >> Yeah so each of those are, I see them as data products. So you've got your TV service products, you've got your kitchen products, you've got your maintenance, you know, data products. All those can be monetized. >> And I went from TV manufacturer to underwriter overnight. I'm competing on data, on insurance, and underwriting. And more importantly, here's the green initiative. Here's why someone would give me $10 billion to do it. I now control 50% of all power consumption in North America because I'm also going to do HVAC units, right? And I can actually engineer the green capabilities in there to actually do better power purchase consumption, better monitoring, and of course, smart capabilities in those, in those appliances. And that's how you actually build a model like that. And that's how you can win on a data model. Now, where does HPE fit into that? Their job is to bring that data together at the edge. They bring that together in the middle. Then they have the ability to manage that on a remote basis and actually deliver those services in the cloud so that someone else can consume it. >> All right, so if you, you're hitting on something that some people have have talked about, but it's, I don't think it's widely sort of discussed. And that is, historically, if you're in an industry, you're in that industry's vertical stack, the sales, the marketing, the manufacturing, the R&D. You become an expert in insurance or financial services or whatever, you know, automobile manufacturing or radio and television, et cetera. Obviously, you're seeing the big internet giants, those 10 trillion, you know, some of the market caps, they're using data to traverse industries. We've never seen this before. Amazon in content, you're seeing Apple in finance, others going into the healthcare. So they're technology companies that are able to traverse industries. Never seen this before, and it's because of data. >> And it's the collapsing value chains. Their data value chains are collapsing. Comms, media, entertainment, tech, same business. Whether you sell me a live stream TV, a book, a video game, or some enterprise software, it's the same data value stream on multi-sided networks. And once you understand that, you can see retail, right? Distribution, manufacturing collapsed in the same kind of way. >> So Silicon Valley broadly defined, if I can include, you know, Microsoft and Amazon in there, they seem to have a dual disruption agenda, right? One is on the technology front, disrupting, you know, the traditional enterprise business. The other is they're disrupting industries. How do you see that playing out? >> Well the problem is, they're never going to be able to get into new industries going forward because of the monopoly power that people believe they have, and that's what's going on, but they're going to invest in creating joint venture startups in other industries, as they power the tools to enable other industries to jump and leap frog from where they are. So healthcare, for example, we're going to have AI in monitoring in ways that we never seen before. You can see devices enter healthcare, but you see joint venture partnerships between a big hyperscaler and some of the healthcare providers. >> So HPE transforming into a cloud company as a service, do you see them getting into insurance as you just described in your little digital example? >> No, but I see them powering the folks that are in insurance, right? >> They're not going to compete with their customers maybe the way that Amazon did. >> No, that's actually why you would go to them as opposed to a hyperscale that might compete with you, right? So is Google going to get into the insurance business? Probably not. Would Amazon? Maybe. Is Tesla in the business? Yeah, they're definitely in insurance. >> Yeah, big time, right. So, okay. So tell me more about your book. How's it being received? What's the reaction? What's your next book? >> So the book is doing well. We're really excited. We did a 20 city book tour. We had chances to meet everybody across the board. Clients we couldn't see in a while, partners we didn't see in a while. And that was fun. The reaction is, if you read the book carefully, there are $3 trillion market cap opportunities, $1000 billion unicorns that can be built right there. >> Is, do you have a copy for me that's signed? (audience laughing) >> Ray: Sorry (coughs) I'm choking on my makeup. I can get one actually, do you want one? >> Dave: I do, I want, I want one. >> Can someone bring my book bag? I actually have one, I can sign it right here. >> Dave: Yeah, you know what? If we have a book, I'd love to hold it. >> Ray: Do you have any here as well? >> So it's obviously you know, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a world of Digital Giants, available, you know, wherever you buy books. >> Yeah, so, oh, are we still going? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, we're going. >> Okay. >> Dave: What's the next book? >> Next book? Well, it's about disrupting those digital giants and it's going to happen in the metaverse economy. If we think about where the metaverse is, not just the hardware platforms, not just the engines, not just what's going on with the platforms around defy decentralization and the content producers, we see those as four different parts today. What we're going to actually see is a whole comp, it's a confluence of events that's going to happen where we actually bring in the metaverse economy and the stuff that Neal Stephenson was writing about ages ago in Snow Crash is going to come out real. >> So, okay. So you're laying out a scenario that the big guys, the disruptors, could get disrupted. It sounds like crypto is possibly a force in that disruption. >> Ray: Decentralized currencies, crypto plays a role, but it's the value exchange mechanisms in an Algorand, in an Ether, right, in a Cardano, that actually enables that to happen because the value exchange in the smart contracts power that capability, and what we're actually seeing is the reinvention of the internet. So you think, see things like SIOM pop-up, which actually is creating the new set of the internet standards, and when those things come together, what we're actually going to move from is the seller is completely transparent, the buyer's completely anonymous and it's in a trust framework that actually allows you to do that. >> Well, you think about those protocols, the internet protocols that were invented whenever, 30 years ago, maybe more, TCP/IP, wow. I mean, okay. And they've been co-opted by the internet giants. It's the crypto guys, some of the guys you've mentioned that are actually innovating and putting, putting down new innovation really and have been well-funded to do so. >> I mean, I'll give you another example of how this could happen. About four years ago, five years ago, I wanted to buy Air Canada's mileage program, $400 million, 10 million users, 40 bucks a user. What do I want them in a mileage program? Well think about it. It's funded, a penny per mile. It's redeemed at 1.6 cents a mile. It's 2 cents if you buy magazines, 2 1/2 cents if you want, you know, electronics, jewelry, or sporting equipment. You don't lose money on these. CFOs hate them, they're just like (groans) liability on the books, but they mortgage the crap out of them in the middle of an ish problem and banks pay millions of dollars a year pour those mileage points. But I don't want it for the 10 million flyers in Canada. What I really want is the access to 762 million people in Star Alliance. What would happen if I turned that airline mileage program into cryptocurrency? One, I would be the world's largest cryptocurrency on day one. What would happen on day two? I'd be the world's largest ad network. Cookie apocalypse, go away. We don't need that anymore. And more importantly, on day three, what would I do? My ESG here? 2.2 billion people are unbanked in the world. All you need is a mobile device and a connection, now you have a currency without any government regulation around, you know, crayon banking, intermediaries, a whole bunch of people like taking cuts, loansharking, that all goes away. You suddenly have people that are now banked and you've unbanked, you've banked the unbanked. And that creates a whole very different environment. >> Not a lot of people thinking about how the big giants get disintermediated. Get the book, look into it, big ideas. Ray Wang, great to see you, man. >> Ray: Hey man, thanks a lot. >> Hey, thank you. All right and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more great content from HPE's big GreenLake announcements. Be right back. (bright music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. (intense music) >> Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante in theCUBE, and as you know, I've been doing a CEO series, and welcome to the isolation economy. We're here at theCUBE's remote studio, and really pleased to have Charlie Giancarlo, who is the CEO of PureStorage. Charlie, I wish we were face-to-face at Pure Accelerate, but this'll have to do. Thanks for coming on. >> You know, Dave, it's always fun to be face-to-face with you. At Pure Accelerate when we do it in person is great fun, but we do what we have to do, and actually, this has been a great event for us, so appreciate you coming on air with me. >> Yeah, and we're going to chat about that, but I want to start off with this meme that's been going around the internet. I was going to use the wrecking ball. I don't know if you've seen that. It's got the people, the executives in the office building saying, "Eh, digital transformation; "not in my lifetime," complacency, and then this big wrecking ball, the COVID-19. You've probably seen it, but as you can see here, somebody created a survey, Who's leading the digital transformation at your company? The CEO, the CTO, or of course circled is COVID-19, and so we've seen that, right? You had no choice but to be a digital company. >> Well, there's that, and there's also the fact that the CEOs who've been wanting to push a digital transformation against a team that wants to stick with the status quo, it gives the CEO now, and even within our own company in Pure, to drive towards that digital transformation when people didn't really take up the mantle. So no, it's a great opportunity for digital transformation, and of course, the companies that have been doing it all along have been getting ahead during this crisis, and the ones that haven't are having some real trouble. And you and I have had some really interesting conversations. Again, that's, I think, the thing I miss most, not only having you in theCUBE, but the side conversations at the cocktail parties, et cetera. And we've talked about IP, and China, and the history of the US, and all kinds of interesting things there, but one of the things I want to put forth, and I know you guys, Kix especially, has done a lot of work on Tech For Good, but the narrative pre-COVID, PC I guess we'd call it, was really a lot of vitriol toward big tech especially, but you know what? That tech lash... Without tech, where would we be right now? >> Well, just think about it, right? Where would we be without videoconferencing, without the internet, right? We'd be sheltered in place with literally nothing to do, and all business would stop, and of course many businesses that require in-person have, but thank God you can still get goods at your home. You can still get food, you can still get all these things that today is enabled by technology. We've seen this ourselves, in terms of having to make emergency shipments during our first quarter to critical infrastructure to keep things going. It's been quite a quarter. I was saying to my team recently that we had just gotten everyone together in February for our sales kickoff for the year, and it felt like a full year since I had seen them all. >> Well, I had interviewed, I think, is it Mike Fitzgerald, your head of supply chain. >> Yes. >> In March, and he was saying, "No. "We have no disruptions. "We're delivering for clients," and we certainly saw that in your results in the quarter. >> Yeah, no, we're very fortunate, but we had been planning for doing our normal business continuity disaster planning, and actually, once we saw COVID in Asia in January we started exercising all those muscles, including pre-shipping product around to depos around the world in case transportation got clogged, which it in fact did. So we were well-prepared, but we're also, I think, very fortunate in terms of the fact that we had a very distributed supply chain. >> Yeah, I mean you guys obviously did a good job. You saw in Dell's earnings they held pretty firm. HPE, on the other hand, really saw some disruption, so congratulations to you and the team on that. So as we think about exiting this isolation economy, we've done work that shows about 44% of CIOs see a U-shaped recovery, but it's very fragmented. It varies by industry. It varies by how digital the organizations are. Are they able to provide physical distancing? How essential are these organizations? And so I'm sure you're seeing that in your customer base as well. How are you thinking about exiting this isolation economy? >> Well, I've certainly resisted trying to predict a U- or a V-shape, because I think there are many more unknowns than there are knowns, and in particular, we don't know if there's a second wave. If there is a second wave, is it going to be more or less lethal than the first wave? And as you know, maybe some of your audience knows, I contracted COVID in March. So I've done a lot of reading on not just COVID, but also on the Spanish flu of 1918-1919. It's going to take a while before this settles down, and we don't know what it's going to look like the rest of the year or next year. So a lot of the recovery is going to depend on that. What we can do, however, is make sure that we're prepared to work from home, work in the office, that we make sure that our team out in the field is well-placed to be able to support our customers in the environment, and the way that we're incenting our overall team now has less to do with the macro than it does with our specific segment, and what I mean by that is we're incenting our team to continue to build market share, and to continue to outperform our competition as we go forward, and also on our customer satisfaction figure, which you know is our Net Promoter Score, which is the highest in the industry. So that's how we're incenting our team. >> Yeah, and we're going to talk about that, and by the way, yes, I did know, and it's great to see you healthy, and I'd be remiss if I didn't also express my condolences, Matt, the loss of Matt Danziger, your head of IR, terrible tragedy. Of course Matt had some roots in Boston, went to school in Maine. >> Yeah. >> Loved Cape Cod, and so really sad loss, I'm sure, for all of the Puritans. >> It's affected us all very personally, because Matt was just an incredible team member, a great friend, and so young and vital. When someone that young dies for almost unexplainable reasons. It turned out to be a congenital heart condition that nobody knew about, but it just breaks... It just breaks everyone's heart, so thank you for your condolences. I appreciate it. >> You're welcome. Okay, so let's get into the earnings a little bit. I want to just pull up one of the charts that shows roughly, I have approximately Q1 because some companies like NetApp, Dell, HPE, are sort of staggered, but the latest results you saw IBM growing at 19%. Now we know that was mainframe-driven in a very easy compare. Pure plus 12, and then everybody else in the negative. Dell, minus five, so actually doing pretty well relative to NetApp and HPE, who, as I said, had some challenges with deliveries. But let's talk about your quarter. You continue to be the one sort of shining star in the storage business. Let's get into it. What are your big takeaways that you want us to know about? >> Well, of course I'd rather see everybody in the black, right, everybody in the positive, but we continue to take market share and continue to grow 20 to 30% faster than the rest of the industry combined, and it's quarter after quarter. It's not just a peak in one quarter and then behind in another quarter. Every quarter we're ahead of the rest of the industry, and I think the reasoning is really quite straightforward. We're the one company that invests in storage as if it's high technology. You do hear quite often, and even among some customers, that storage is commoditized, and all of our competitors invest in it, or don't invest in it, as if it's a commoditized market. Our view is quite straightforward. The science and the engineering of computing and data centers continues to evolve, continues to advance, has to advance if we continue down this path of becoming more of a digital economy. As we all know, processors advance in speed and capability. Networking advances in terms of speed and capability. Well, data storage is a third of data center spend, and if it doesn't continue to advance at the same pace or faster than everything else, it becomes a major bottleneck. We've been the innovator. If you look at a number of different studies, year after year, now over six or seven years, we are the leader in innovation in the data storage market, and we're being rewarded for that by penetrating more and more of the customer base. >> All right, let's talk about that. And you mentioned in your keynote at Accelerate that you guys spend more on R&D as a percentage of revenue than anybody, and so I want to throw out some stats. I'm sorry, folks, I don't have a slide on this. HPE spends about 1.8 billion a year on R&D, about 6% of revenues. IBM, I've reported on IBM and how it's spending the last 10 years, spent a huge amount on dividends and stock buybacks, and they spent six billion perpetually on R&D, which is now 8% of revenue. Dell at five billion. Of course Dell used to spend well under a billion before the EMC acquisition. That's about 6% of revenue. And NetApp, 800 million, much higher. They're a pure play, about 13%. Pure spends 430 million last year on R&D, which is over 30% of revenue on R&D, to your point. >> Yeah, yeah, well, as I said, we treat it like it's high technology, which it is, right? If you're not spending at an appropriate level you're going to fall behind, and so we continue to advance. I will say that you mentioned big numbers by the other players, but I was part of a big organization as well with a huge R&D budget, but what matters is what percent of the revenue of a specific area are you spending, right? You mentioned Dell and VMware. A very large fraction of their spend is on VMware. Great product and great company, but very little is being spent in the area of storage. >> Well, and the same thing's true for IBM, and I've made this point. In fact, I made this point about Snowflake last week in my breaking analysis. How is Snowflake able to compete with all these big whales? And the same thing for you guys. Every dime you spend on R&D goes to making your storage products better for your customers. Your go-to-market, same thing. Your partner ecosystem, same thing, and so you're the much more focused play. >> Right, well I think it boils down to one very simple thing, right? Most of our competitors are, you might call them one-stop shops, so the shopping mall of IT gear, right? The Best Buy, if you will, of information technology. We're really the sole best of breed player in data storage, right, and if you're a company that wants two vendors, you might choose one that's a one-stop shop. If you have the one-stop shop, the next one you want is a best of breed player, right? And we fill that role for our customers. >> Look it, this business is a technology business, and technology and innovation is driven by research and development, period, the end. But I want to ask you, so the storage business generally, look, you're kind of the one-eyed man in the land of the blind here. I mean the storage business has been somewhat on the back burner. In part it's your fault because you put so much flash into the data center, gave so much headroom that organizations didn't have to buy spindles anymore to get to performance, the cloud has also been a factor. But look, last decade was a better decade for storage than the previous decade when you look at the exits that you guys had and escape velocity, Nutanix, if you can kind of put them in there, too. Much larger than say the Compellents or 3PARs. They didn't make it to a billion. So my question is storage businesses, is it going to come back as a growth business? Like you said, you wish everybody were in the black here. >> Right, well a lot of what's being measured, of course, is enterprise on-prem storage, right? If we add on-prem and cloud, it actually continues to be a big growth business, because data is not shrinking. In fact, data is still growing faster than the price reduction of the media underneath, right, so it's still growing. And as you know, more recently we've introduced what we call Pure as-a-Service and Cloud Block Store. So now we have our same software, which we call Purity, that runs on our on-prem arrays, also running on AWS, and currently in beta on Azure. So from our point of view this is a... First of all, it's a big market, about $30 to $40 billion total. If you add in cloud, it's another $10 to $15 billion, which is a new opportunity for us. Last year we were about 1.65 billion. We're still less than, as you know, less than 10% of the overall market. So the opportunity for us to grow is just tremendous out there, and whether or not total storage grows, for us it's less important right now than the market share that we pick up. >> Right, okay, so I want to stay on that for a minute and talk about... I love talking about the competition. So what I'm showing here with this kind of wheel slide is data from our data partner ETR, and they go out every quarter. They have a very simple methodology. It's like Net Promoter Score, and it's very consistent. They say relative to last year, are you adopting the platform, that's the lime green, and so this is Pure's data. Are you increasing spend by 6% or more? That's the 32%, the forest green. Is spending going to be flat? Is it going to decrease by more than 6%? That's the 9%. And then are you replacing the platform, 2%. Now this was taken at the height of the US lockdown. This last survey. >> Wow. >> So you can see the vast majority of customers are either keeping spending the same, or they're spending more. >> Yeah. >> So that's very, very strong. And I want to just bring up another data point, which is we like to plot that Net Score here on the vertical axis, and then what we call market share. It's not like IDC market share, but it's pervasiveness in the survey. And you can see here, to your point, Pure is really the only, and I've cited the other vendors on the right hand, that box there, you're the only company in the green with a 40% Net Score, and you can see everybody else is well below the line in the red, but to your point, you got a long way to go in terms of gaining market share. >> Exactly, right, and the reason... I think the reason why you're seeing that is really our fundamental and basic value is that our product and our company is easy to do business with and easy to operate, and it's such a pleasure to use versus the competition that customers really appreciate the product and the company. We do have a Net Promoter Score of over 80, which I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another company in any industry with Net Promoter Scores that high. >> Yeah, so I want to stay on the R&D thing for a minute, because you guys bet the company from day one on simplicity, and that's really where you put a lot of effort. So the cloud is vital here, and I want to get your perspective on it. You mentioned your Cloud Block Store, which I like that, it's native to AWS. I think you're adding other platforms. I think you're adding Azure as well, and I'm sure you'll do Google. >> Azure, Azure's in beta, yes. >> Yeah, Google's just a matter of time. Alibaba, you'll get them all, but the key here is that you're taking advantage of the native services, and let's take AWS as an example. You're using EC2, and high priority instances of EC2, as an example, to essentially improve block storage on Amazon. Amazon loves it because it sells Compute. Maybe the storage guys in Amazon don't love it so much, but it's all about the customer, and so the native cloud services are critical. I'm sure you're going to do the same thing for Azure and other clouds, and that takes a lot of investment, but I heard George Kurian today addressing some analysts, talking about they're the only company doing kind of that cloud native approach. Where are you placing your bets? How much of it is cloud versus kind of on-prem, if you will? >> Yeah, well... So first of all, an increasing fraction is cloud, as you might imagine, right? We started off with a few dozen developers, and now we're at many more than that. Of course the majority of our revenue still comes from on-prem, but the value is the following in our case, which is that we literally have the same software operating, from a customer and from a application standpoint. It is the same software operating on-prem as in the cloud, which means that the customer doesn't have to refactor their application to move it into the cloud, and we're the one vendor that's focused on block. What NetApp is doing is great, but it's a file-based system. It's really designed for smaller workloads and low performance workloads. Our system's designed for high performance enterprise workloads, Tier 1 workloads in the cloud. To say that they're both cloud sort of washes over the fact that they're almost going after two completely separate markets. >> Well, I think it's interesting that you're both really emphasizing cloud native, which I think is very important. I think that some of the others have some catching up to do in that regard, and again, that takes a big investment in not just wrapping your stack, and shoving it in the cloud, and hosting it in the cloud. You're actually taking advantage of the local services. >> Well, I mean one thing I'll mention was Amazon gave us an award, which they give to very few vendors. It's called the Well-Architected AWS Award, because we've designed it not to operate, let's say, in a virtualized environment on AWS. We really make use of the native AWS EC2 services. It is designed like a web service on EC2. >> And the reason why this is so important is just, again, to share with our audience is because when you start talking about multi-cloud and hybrid cloud, you want the same exact experience on-prem as you do in the cloud, whether it's hybrid or across clouds, and the key is if you're using cloud native services, you have the most efficient, the highest performance, lowest latency, and lowest cost solution. That is going to be... That's going to be a determinate of the winner. >> Yes, I believe so. Customers don't want to be doing... Be working with software that is going to change, fundamentally change and cause them to have to refactor their applications. If it's not designed natively to the cloud, then when Amazon upgrades it may cause a real problem with the software or with the environment, and so customers don't want that. They want to know they're cloud native. >> Well, your task over the next 10 years is something. Look it, it's very challenging to grow a company the size of Pure, period, but let's face it, you guys caught EMC off-guard. You were driving a truck through the Symmetrics base and the VNX base. Not that that was easy. (chuckling) And they certainly didn't make it easy for ya. But now we've got this sort of next chapter, and I want to talk a little bit about this. You guys call it the Modern Data Experience. You laid it out last Accelerate, kind of your vision. You talked about it more at this year's Accelerate. I wonder if you could tell us the key takeaways from your conference this year. >> Right, the key takeaway... So let me talk about both. I'll start with Modern Data Experience and then key takeaways from this Accelerate. So Modern Data Experience, for those that are not yet familiar with it, is the idea that an on-prem experience would look very similar, if not identical, to a cloud experience. That is to say that applications and orchestrators just use APIs to be able to call upon and have delivered the storage environment that they want to see instantaneously over a high speed network. The amazing thing about storage, even today, is that it's highly mechanical, it's highly hardware-oriented to where if you have a new application and you want storage, you actually have to buy an array and connect it. It's physical. Where we want to be is just like in the cloud. If you have a new application and you want storage or you want data services, you just write a few APIs in your application and it's delivered immediately and automatically, and that's what we're delivering on-prem with the Modern Data Experience. What we're also doing, though, is extending that to the cloud, and with Cloud Block Store as part of this, with that set of interfaces and management system exactly the same as on-prem, you now have that cloud experience across all the clouds without having to refactor applications in one or the other. So that's our Modern Data Experience. That's the vision that drives us. We've delivered more and more against it starting at the last Accelerate, but even more now. Part of this is being able to deliver storage that is flexible and able to be delivered by API. On this Accelerate we delivered our Purity 6.0 for Flash Array, which adds not only greater resiliency characteristics, but now file for the first time in a Flash Array environment, and so now the same Flash Array can deliver both file and block. Which is a unified experience, but all delivered by API and simple to operate. We've also delivered, more recently, Flash Array 3.0... I'm sorry, Purity 3.0 on FlashBlade that delivers the ability for FlashBlade now to have very high resiliency characteristics, and to be able to even better deliver the ability to restore applications when there's been a failure of their data systems very, very rapidly, something that we call Rapid Restore. So these are huge benefits. And the last one I'll mention, Pure as-a-Service allows a customer today to be able to contract for storage as a service on-prem and in the cloud with one unified subscription. So they only pay for what they use. They only pay for what they use when they use it, and they only pay for it, regardless of where it's used, on-prem or in the cloud, and it's a true subscription model. It's owned and operated by Pure, but the customer gets the benefit of only paying for what they use, regardless of where they use it. >> Awesome, thanks for that run through. And a couple other notes that I had, I mean you obviously talked about the support for the work from home and remote capabilities. Automation came up a lot. >> Yep. >> You and I, I said, we have these great conversations, and one of the ones I would have with you if we were having a drink somewhere would be if you look at productivity stats in US and Europe, they're declining-- >> Yes. >> Pretty dramatically. And if you think about the grand challenges we have, the global challenges, whether it's pandemics, or healthcare, or feeding people, et cetera, we're not going to be able to meet those challenges without automation. I mean people, for years, have been afraid of automation. "Oh, we're going to lose jobs." We don't have enough people to solve all these problems, and so I think that's behind us, right-- >> Yeah, I agree. >> The fear of automation. So that came up. Yeah, go ahead, please. >> I once met with Alan Greenspan. You may remember him. >> Of course. >> This is after he was the chairman, and he said, "Look, I've studied the economies now "for the last 100 years, "and the fact of the matter is "that wealth follows productivity." The more productive you are as a society, that means the greater the wealth that exists for every individual, right? The standard of living follows productivity, and without productivity there's no wealth creation for society. So to your point, yeah, if we don't become more productive, more efficient, people don't live better, right? >> Yeah, I knew you'd have some good thoughts on that, and of course, speaking of Greenspan, we're seeing a little bit of rational exuberance maybe in the market. (chuckling) Pretty amazing. But you also talked about containers, and persisting containers, and Kubernetes, the importance of Kubernetes. That seems to be a big trend that you guys are hopping on as well. >> You bet. It is the wave of the future. Now, like all waves of the future, it's going to take time. Containers work entirely differently from VMs and from machines in terms of how they utilize resources inside a data center environment, and they are extraordinarily dynamic. They require the ability to build up, tear down connections to storage, and create storage, and spin it down at very, very rapid rates, and again, it's all API-driven. It's all responsive, not to human operators, but it's got to be responsive to the application itself and to the orchestration environment. And again, I'll go back to what we talked about with our Modern Data Experience. It's exactly the kind of experience that our customers want to be able to be that responsive to this new environment. >> My last question is from John Furrier. He asked me, "Hey, Charlie knows a lot about networking." We were talking about multi-cloud. Obviously cross-cloud networks are going to become increasingly important. People are trying to get rid of their MPLS networks, really moving to an SD-WAN environment. Your thoughts on the evolution of networking over the next decade. >> Well, I'll tell you. I'm a big believer that even SD-WANs, over time, are going to become obsolete. Another way to phrase it is the new private network is the internet. I mean look at it now. What does SD-WAN mean when nobody's in the local office, right? No one's in the remote office; they're all at home. And so now we need to think about the fact... Sometimes it's called Zero Trust. I don't like that term. Nobody wants to talk about zero anything. What it really is about is that there is no internal network anymore. The fact of the matter is even for... Let's say I'm inside my own company's network. Well, do they trust my machine? Maybe not. They may trust me but not my machine, and so what we need to have is going to a cloud model where all communication to all servers goes through a giant, call it a firewall or a proxy service, where everything is cleaned before it's delivered. People, individuals only get, and applications, only get access to the applications that they're authorized to use, not to a network, because once they're in the network they can get anywhere. So they should only get access to the applications they're able to use. So my personal opinion is the internet is the future private network, and that requires a very different methodology for authentication for security and so forth, and if we think that we protect ourselves now by firewalls, we have to rethink that. >> Great perspectives. And by the way, you're seeing more than glimpses of that. You look at Zscaler's results recently, and that's kind of the security cloud, and I'm glad you mentioned that you don't like that sort of Zero Trust. You guys, even today, talked about near zero RPO. That's an honest statement-- >> Right. >> Because there's no such thing as zero RPO. (chuckling) >> Right, yeah. >> Charlie, great to have you on. Thanks so much for coming back in theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Dave, always a pleasure. Thank you so much, and hopefully next time in person. >> I hope so. All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (smooth music)

>> Announcer: From Sand Hill Road in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, presenting the People First Network, insights from entrepreneurs and tech leaders. (bright electronic music) >> Everyone, welcome to this special CUBE conversation. We're here at Sand Hill Road at Mayfield Fund. This is theCUBE, co-creation of the People First Network content series. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Our next guest, Yuvi Kochar, who's the Data-centric Digital Transformation Strategist at GameStop. Variety of stints in the industry, going in cutting-edge problems around data, Washington Post, comScore, among others. You've got your own practice. From Washington, DC, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you, thanks for hosting me. >> This is a awesome conversation. We were just talking before we came on camera about data and the roles you've had over your career have been very interesting, and this seems to be the theme for some of the innovators that I've been interviewing and were on the People First is they see an advantage with technology, and they help companies, they grow companies, and they assist. You did a lot of different things, most notably that I recognized was the Washington Post, which is on the mainstream conversations now as a rebooted media company with a storied, historic experience from the Graham family. Jeff Bezos purchased them for a song, with my opinion, and now growing still, with the monetization, with subscriber base growing. I think they're number one in subscribers, I don't believe, I believe so. Interesting time for media and data. You've been there for what, how many years were you at the Washington Post? >> I spent about 13 years in the corporate office. So the Washington Post company was a conglomerate. They'd owned a lot of businesses. Not very well known to have owned Kaplan, education company. We owned Slate, we owned Newsweek, we owned TV stations and now they're into buying all kinds of stuff. So I was involved with a lot of varied businesses, but obviously, we were in the same building with the Washington Post, and I had front row seat to see the digital transformation of the media industry. >> John: Yeah, we-- >> And how we responded. >> Yeah, I want to dig into that because I think that illustrates kind of a lot what's happening now, we're seeing with cloud computing. Obviously, Cloud 1.0 and the rise of Amazon public cloud. Clearly, check, done that, a lot of companies, startups go there. Why would you provision a data center? You're a startup, you're crazy, but at some point, you can have a data center. Now, hybrid cloud's important. Devops, the application development market, building your own stack, is shifting now. It seems like the old days, but upside down. It's flipped around, where applications are in charge, data's critical for the application, infrastructure's now elastic. Unlike the old days of here's your infrastructure. You're limited to what you can run on it based on the infrastructure. >> Right. >> What's your thoughts on that? >> My thoughts are that, I'm a very, as my title suggests, data-centric person. So I think about everything data first. We were in a time when cloud-first is becoming old, and we are now moving into data-first because what's happening in the marketplace is the ability, the capability, of data analytics has reached a point where prediction, in any aspect of a business, has become really inexpensive. So empowering employees with prediction machines, whether you call them bots, or you call them analytics, or you call them machine learning, or AI, has become really inexpensive, and so I'm thinking more of applications, which are built data-out instead of data-in, which is you build process and you capture data, and then you decide, oh, maybe I should build some reporting. That's what we used to do. Now, you need to start with what's the data I have got? What's the data I need? What's the data I can get? We were just talking about, everybody needs a data monetization strategy. People don't realize how much asset is sitting in their data and where to monetize it and how to use it. >> It's interesting. I mean, I got my computer science degree in the 80s and one of the tracks I got a degree in was database, and let's just say that my main one was operating system. Database was kind of the throwaway at that time. It wasn't considered a big field. Database wasn't sexy at all. It was like, database, like. Now, if you're a database, you're a data guru, you're a rock star. The world has changed, but also databases are changing. It used to be one centralized database rules the world. Oracle made a lot of money with that, bought all their competitors. Now you have open source came into the realm, so the world of data is also limited by where the data's stored, how the data is retrieved, how the data moves around the network. This is a new dynamic. How do you look at that because, again, lagging in business has a lot to do with the data, whether it's in an application, that's one thing, but also having data available, not necessarily in real time, but if I'm going to work on something, I want the data set handy, which means I can download it or maybe get real-time. What's your thoughts on data as an element in all that moving around? >> So I think what you're talking about is still data analytics. How do I get insights about my business? How do I make decisions using data in a better way? What flexibility do I need? So you talk about open source, you think about MongoDB and those kind of databases. They give you a lot of flexibility. You can develop interesting insights very quickly, but I think that is still very much thinking about data in an old-school kind of way. I think what's happening now is we're teaching algorithms with data. So data is actually the software, right? So you get an open source algorithm. I mean Google and everybody else is happy to open source their algorithms. They're all available for free. But what, the asset is now the data, which means how you train your algorithm with your data, and then now, moving towards deploying it on the edge, which is you take an algorithm, you train it, then you deploy it on the edge in an IoT kind of environment, and now you're doing decision-making, whether it's self-driving cars, I mean those are great examples, but I think it's going down into very interesting spaces in enterprise, which is, so we have to all think about software differently because, actually, data is a software. >> That's an interesting take on it, and I love that. I mean I wrote a blog post in 2007 when we first started playing with the, in looking at the network effects on social media and those platforms was, I wrote a post, it was called Data is the New Development Kit. Development kit was what people did back then. They had a development kit and they would download stuff and then code, but the idea was is that data has to be part of the runtime and the compilation of, as software acts, data needs to be resident, not just here's a database, access it, pull it out, use it, present it, where data is much more of a key ingredient into the development. Is that kind of what you're getting at? >> Yes. >> Notion of-- >> And I think we're moving from the age of arithmetic-based machines, which is we put arithmetic onto chips, and we then made general-purpose chips, which were used to solve a huge amount of problems in the world. We're talking about, now, prediction machines on a chip, so you think about algorithms that are trained using data, which are going to be available on chips. And now you can do very interesting algorithmic work right on the edge devices, and so I think a lot of businesses, and I've seen that recently at GameStop, I think business leaders have a hard time understanding the change because we have moved from process-centric, process automation, how can I do it better? How can I be more productive? How can I make better decisions? We have trained our business partners on that kind of thinking, and now we are starting to say, no, no, no, we've got something that's going to help you make those decisions. >> It's interesting, you mentioned GameStop. Obviously, well-known, my sons are all gamers. I used to be a gamer back before I had kids, but then, can't keep up anymore. Got to be on that for so long, but GameStop was a retail giant in gaming. Okay, when they had physical displays, but now, with online, they're under pressure, and I had interviewed, again, at an Amazon event, this Best Buy CIO, and he says, "We don't compete with price anymore. "If they want to buy from Amazon, no problem, "but our store traffic is off the charts. "We personalize 50,000 emails a day." So personalization became their strategy, it was a data strategy. This is a user experience, not a purchase decision. Is this how you guys are thinking about it at GameStop? >> I think retail, if you look at the segment per se, personalization, Amazon obviously led the way, but it's obvious that personalization is key to attract the customer. If I don't know what games you play, or if I don't know what video you watched a little while ago, about which game, then I'm not offering you the product that you are most prone or are looking for or what you want to buy, and I think that's why personalization is key. I think that's-- >> John: And data drives that, and data drives that. >> Data drives that, and for personalization, if you look at retail, there's customer information. You need to know the customer. You need to know, understand the customer preferences, but then there's the product, and you need to marry the two. And that's where personalization comes into play. >> So I'll get your thoughts. You have, obviously, a great perspective on how tech has been built and now working on some real cutting-edge, clear view on what the future looks like. Totally agree with you, by the way, on the data. There's kind of an old guard/new guard, kind of two sides of the street, the winners and the losers, but hey, look, I think the old guard, if they don't innovate and become fresh and new and adopt the modern things that need to attract the new expectations and new experiences from their customers, are going to die. That being said, what is the success formula, because some people might say, hey, I'm data-driven. I'm doing it, look at me, I'm data. Well, not really. Well, how do you tell if someone's really data-driven or data-centric? What's the difference? Is there a tell sign? >> I think when you say the old guard, you're talking about companies that have large assets, that have been very successful in a business model that maybe they even innovated, like GameStop came up with pre-owned games, and for the longest of times, we've made huge amount of revenue and profit from that segment of our business. So yes, that's becoming old now, but I think the most important thing for large enterprises at least, to battle the incumbent, the new upstarts, is to develop strategies which are leveraging the new technologies, but are building on their existing capability, and that's what I drive at GameStop. >> And also the startups too, that they were here in a venture capital firm, we're at Mayfield Fund, doing this program, startups want to come and take a big market down, or come in on a narrow entry and get a position and then eat away at an incumbent. They could do it fast if they're data-centric. >> And I think it's speed is what you're talking about. I think the biggest challenge large companies have is an ability to to play the field at the speed of the new upstarts and the firms that Mayfield and others are investing in. That's the big challenge because you see this, you see an opportunity, but you're, and I saw that at the Washington Post. Everybody went to meetings and said, yes, we need to be digital, but they went-- >> They were talking. >> They went back to their desk and they had to print a paper, and so yes, so we'll be digital tomorrow, and that's very hard because, finally, the paper had to come out. >> Let's take us through the journey. You were the CTO, VP of Technology, Graham Holdings, Washington Post, they sold it to Jeff Bezos, well-documented, historic moment, but what a storied company, Washington Post, local paper, was the movie about it, all the historic things they've done from a reporting and journalism standpoint. We admire that. Then they hit, the media business starts changing, gets bloated, not making any money, online classifieds are dying, search engine marketing is growing, they have to adjust. You were there. What was the big, take us through that journey. >> I think the transformation was occurring really fast. The new opportunities were coming up fast. We were one of the first companies to set up a website, but we were not allowed to use the brand on the website because there was a lot of concern in the newsroom that we are going to use or put the brand on this misunderstood, nearly misunderstood opportunity. So I think it started there, and then-- >> John: This is classic old guard mentality. >> Yes, and it continued down because people had seen downturns. It's not like media companies hadn't been through downturns. They had, because the market crashes and we have a recession and there's a downturn, but it always came back because-- >> But this was a wave. I mean the thing is, downturns are economic and there's business that happens there, advertisers, consumption changes. This was a shift in their user base based upon a technology wave, and they didn't see it coming. >> And they hadn't ever experienced it. So they were experiencing it as it was happening, and I think it's very hard to respond to a transformation of that kind in a very old-- >> As a leader, how did you handle that? Give us an example of what you did, how you make your mark, how do you get them to move? What were some of the things that were notable moments? >> I think the main thing that happened there was that we spun out washingtonpost.com. So it became an independent business. It was actually running across the river. It moved out of the corporate offices. It went to a separate place. >> The renegades. >> And they were given-- >> John: Like Steve Jobs and the Macintosh team, they go into separate building. >> And we were given, I was the CTO of the dotcom for some time while we were turning over our CTO there, and we were given a lot of flexibility. We were not held accountable to the same level. We used the, obviously, we used-- >> John: You were running fast and loose. >> And we were, yes, we had a lot of flexibility and we were doing things differently. We were giving away the content in some way. On the online side, there was no pay wall. We started with a pay wall, but advertising kind of was so much more lucrative in the beginning, that the pay wall was shut down, and so I think we experimented a lot, and I think where we missed, and a lot of large companies miss, is that you need to leave your existing business behind and scale your new business, and I think that's very hard to do, which is, okay, we're going to, it's happening at GameStop. We're no longer completely have a control of the market where we are the primary source of where, you talk about your kids, where they go to get their games. They can get the games online and I think-- >> It's interesting, people are afraid to let go because they're so used to operating their business, and now it has to pivot to a new operating model and grow. Two different dynamics, growth, operation, operating and growing. Not all managers have that growth mindset. >> And I think there's also an experience thing. So most people who are in these businesses, who've been running these businesses very successfully, have not been watching what's happening in technology. And so the technology team comes out and says, look, let me show you what we can do. I think there has to be this open and very, very candid discussion around how we are going to transform-- >> How would you talk about your peer, developed peers out there, your peers and other CIOs, and even CISOs on the security side, have been dealing with the same suppliers over, and in fact, on the security side, the supplier base is getting larger. There's more tools coming out. I mean who wants another tool? So platform, tool, these are big decisions being made around companies, that if you want to be data-centric, you want to be a data-centric model, you got to understand platforms, not just buying tools. If you buy a hammer, they will look like a nail, and you have so many hammers, what version, so platform discussions come in. What's your thoughts on this? Because this is a cutting-edge topic we've been talking about with a lot of senior engineering leaders around Platform 2.0 coming, not like a classic platform to... >> Right, I think that each organization has to leverage or build their, our stack on top of commodity platforms. You talked about AWS or Azure or whatever cloud you use, and you take all their platform capability and services that they offer, but then on top of that, you structure your own platform with your vertical capabilities, which become your differentiators, which is what you take to market. You enable those for all your product lines, so that now you are building capability, which is a layer on top of, and the commodity platforms will continue to bite into your platform because they will start offering capabilities that earlier, I remember, I started at this company called BrassRing, recruitment automation. One of the first software-as-a-service companies, and I, we bought a little company, and the CTO there had built a web server. It was called, it was his name, it was called Barrett's Engine. (chuckles) And so-- >> Probably Apache with something built around it. >> So, in those days, we used to build our own web servers. But now today, you can't even find an engineer who will build a web server. >> I mean the web stack and these notions of just simple Web 1.0 building blocks of change. We've been calling it Cloud 2.0, and I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things I've been riffing on lately is this, I remember Marc Andreessen wrote the famous article in Wall Street Journal, Software is Eating the World, which I agree with in general, no debate there, but also the 10x Engineer, you go into any forum online, talking about 10x Engineers, you get five different opinions, meaning, a 10x Engineer's an engineer who can do 10 times more work than an old school, old classical engineer. I bring this up because the notion of full stack developer used to be a real premium, but what you're talking about here with cloud is a horizontally scalable commodity layer with differentiation at the application level. That's not full stack, that's half stack. So you think the world's kind of changing. If you're going to be data-centric, the control plane is data. The software that's domain-specific is on top. That's what you're essentially letting out. >> That's what I'm talking about, but I think that also, what I'm beginning to find, and we've been working on a couple of projects, is you put the data scientists in the same room with engineers who write code, write software, and it's fascinating to see them communicate and collaborate. They do not talk the same language at all. >> John: What's it like? Give us a mental picture. >> So a data scientist-- >> Are they throwing rocks at each other? >> Well, nearly, because the data scientists come from the math side of the house. They're very math-oriented, they're very algorithm-oriented. Mathematical algorithms, whereas software engineers are much more logic-oriented, and they're thinking about scalability and a whole lot of other things, and if you think about, a data scientist develops an algorithm, it rarely scales. You have to actually then hand it to an engineer to rewrite it in a scalable form. >> I want to ask you a question on that. This is why I got you and you're an awesome guest. Thanks for your insights here, and we'll take a detour into machine learning. Machine learning really is what AI is about. AI is really nothing more than just, I love AI, it gets people excited about computer science, which is great. I mean my kids talk about AI, they don't talk about IoT, which is good that AI does that, but it's really machine learning. So there's two schools of thought on machine. I call it the Berkeley school on one end, not Berkeley per se but Berkeley talks about math, machine learning, math, math, math, and then you have other schools of thought that are on cognition, that machine learning should be more cognitive, less math-driven, spectrum of full math, full cognition, and everything in between. What's your thoughts on the relationship between math and cognition? >> Yeah, so it's interesting. You get gray hair and you kind of move up the stack, and I'm much more business-focused. These are tools. You can get passionate about either school of thought, but I think that what that does is you lose sight of what the business needs, and I think it's most important to start with what are we here trying to do, and what is the best tool? What is the approach that we should utilize to meet that need? Like the other day, we were looking at product data from GameStop, and we know that the quality of data should be better, but we found a simple algorithm that we could utilize to create product affinity. Now whether it's cognition or math, it doesn't matter. >> John: The outcome's the outcome. >> The outcome is the outcome, and so-- >> They're not mutually exclusive, and that's a good conversation debate but it really gets to your point of does it really matter as long as it's accurate and the data drives that, and this is where I think data is interesting. If you look at folks who are thinking about data, back to the cloud as an example, it's only good as what you can get access to, and cybersecurity, the transparency issue around sharing data becomes a big thing. Having access to the data's super important. How do you view that for, as CIOs, and start to think about they're re-architecting their organizations for these digital transformations. Is there a school of thought there? >> Yes, so I think data is now getting consolidated. For the longest time, we were building data warehouses, departmental data warehouses. You can go do your own analytics and just take your data and add whatever else you want to do, and so the part of data that's interesting to you becomes much more clean, much more reliable, but the rest, you don't care much about. I think given the new technologies that are available and the opportunity of the data, data is coming back together, and it's being put into a single place. >> (mumbles) Well, that's certainly a honeypot for a hacker, but we'll get that in a second. If you and I were doing a startup, we say, hey, let's, we've got a great idea, we're going to build something. How would we want to think about the data in terms of having data be a competitive advantage, being native into the architecture of the system. I'll say we use cloud unless we need some scale on premise for privacy reasons or whatever, but we would, how would we go to market, and we have an app, as apps defined, great use case, but I want to have extensibility around the data, I don't want to foreclose any future options, How should I think about my, how should we think about our data strategy? >> Yes, so there was a very interesting conversation I had just a month ago with a friend of mine who's working at a startup in New York, and they're going to build a solution, take it to market, and he said, "I want to try it only in a small market "and learn from it," and he's going very old school, focus groups, analytics, analysis, and I sat down, we sat at Grand Central Station, and we talked about how, today, he should be thinking about capturing the data and letting the data tell him what's working and what's not working, instead of trying to find focus groups and find very small data points to make big decisions. He should actually utilize the target, the POC market, to capture data and get ready for scale because if you want to go national after having run a test in... >> Des Moines, Iowa. >> Part of New York or wherever, then you need to already have built the data capability to scale that business in today's-- >> John: Is it a SaaS business? >> No, it's a service and-- >> So he can instrument it, just watch the data. >> And yes, but he's not thinking like that because most business people are still thinking the old way, and if you look at Uber and others, they have gone global at such a rapid pace because they're very data-centric, and they scale with data, and they don't scale with just let's go to that market and then let's try-- >> Yeah, ship often, get the data, then think of it as part of the life cycle of development. Don't think it as the old school, craft, launch it, and then see how it goes and watch it fail or succeed, and know six months later what happened, know immediately. >> And if you go data-centric, then you can turn the R&D crank really fast. Learn, test and learn, test and learn, test and learn at a very rapid pace. That changes the game, and I think people are beginning to realize that data needs to be thought about as the application and the service is being developed, because the data will help scale the service really fast. >> Data comes into applications. I love your line of data is the new software. That's better than the new oil, which has been said before, but data comes into the app. You also mentioned that app throws off data. >> Yuvi: Yes. >> We know that humans have personal, data exhaust all the time. Facebook made billions of dollars on our exhaust and our data. The role of data in and out of the application, the I/O of the application, is a new concept, you brought that up. I like that and I see that happening. How should we capture that data? This used to be log files. Now you got observability, all kinds of new words kind of coming into this cloud equation. How should people think about this? >> I think that has to be part of the design of your applications, because data is application, and you need to design the application with data in mind, and that needs to be thought of upfront, and not later. >> Yuvi, what's next for you? We're here in Sand Hill Road, VC firm, they're doing a lot of investments, you've got a great project with GameStop, you're advising startups, what's going on in your world? >> Yes, so I'm totally focused, as you probably are beginning to sense, on the opportunity that data is enabling, especially in the enterprise. I'm very interested in helping business understand how to leverage data, because this is another major shift that's occurring in the marketplace. Opportunities have opened up, prediction is becoming cheap and at scale, and I think any business runs on their capability to predict, what is the shirt I should buy? How many I should buy? What color should I buy? I think data is going to drive that prediction at scale. >> This is a legit way that everyone should pay attention to. All businesses, not just one-- >> All businesses, everything, because prediction is becoming cheap and automated and granular. That means you need to be able to not just, you need to empower your people with low-level prediction that comes out of the machines. >> Data is the new software. Yuvi, thanks so much for great insight. This is theCUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier here at Sand Hill Road at the Mayfield Fund, for the People First Network series. Thanks for watching. >> Yuvi: Thank you. 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>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas It's The Cube covering Adobe Summit 2019 brought to you by Adobe. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to The Cube's live coverage here in Las Vegas for Adobe Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick. Our next guest is Jason Woosley, Vice President of Commerce Product and Platform for Adobe, part of the big keynote display this morning and news on the announcement of the Commerce Cloud, formerly Magento. Congratulations. Welcome to The Cube. >> Hey, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. >> Love the commerce angle because now that's a big part of a journey, people buy stuff. >> Absolutely. >> That's the most important, one of the most important parts. >> So when you think about an experience end to end, right it culminates hopefully in a transaction, and that's one of the pieces that makes the Magento acquisition fit so well into the Adobe family. We actually kind of finished that last mile of the transition getting to actual ownership. >> You know, I love this event because it feels a little like Woodstock, as Steve Lucas said on stage because you've got the best of big data all the intoxicating conversations and discussions. You get the best of the cloud, all the geek stuff under the hood. >> Oh, yeah. >> Then you've got the applications which are super relevant. So, it's really kind of, I love the content, love that you guys are in the middle of, I think, a great wave of innovation coming. But if you look at the big picture, you're seeing the same kind of themes, latency, relevance. I mean, these are tech terms used on your product in commerce a lot different than other things. So, you start to see these geek terms kind of weaving into this new cloud. >> I think you're really starting to see a convergence of some of the terminology and what really matters and that's the customer experience, right. It's really about answering what the customer wants and getting that is, that's the magic. >> It's accepting the fact that it's a disjointed journey. I love the journey conversation but it's not the straight pipe like it used to be. You're in and out, you're looking on a website, you're jumping over from a tweet, you know, there's so many kind of in's and out's, in's and out's, in's and outs before you get to that buy. >> And consumers are so sophisticated now, right. I mean they absolutely take advantage of all of those channels and that's why it's so important for merchants who are trying to be relevant. You've got to be present at every point where your customers are and it's a tough thing to do because there's just a proliferation of channels, I mean, you know, we've got digital kiosks, we've got buy online pick up in store, all these omnichannels operations coming together now. So it becomes even more important for merchants to make that investment and make sure that not only are they at the place where their customers are but they're there with a relevant and personalized message. >> Jason, I've got to ask you a question. I bring this up in a lot of these kind of user experience conversations. When you have new things coming on the market that are hard to operationalize out of the gate. It takes some time. We're starting to see that with you guys that built the platform. People are starting to operationalize new capabilities. But on the consumer side, the user side, expectations become the new experience. It's kind of a cliche in the tech world. What are some of those experiences that you're seeing that's becoming the new expectations. To your point about, the old way, I can smell a marketing funnel a mile away. I'm trying to buy something and all this other distractions that are not relevant to me are there. So you start to see some frustration but now users expect something new. What is that expectation that's converting it to experience? >> It's across the board and expectation are sky high, right. And it seems like every time we see something innovative you think about Amazon Prime, right, two day shipping. That was crazy back in the day and now, two day shipping is considered standard shipping, right. If you wanna be fast, you're doing same day. And that kind of, it's so hard to keep up with that pace of innovation and it happens all over the place. It's not just in logistics. People are expecting to be able to take advantage of omnichannel operations, right. Millennials especially. 60% of them really prefer to be able to have a tangible interaction with the product before they buy it. But they still want to buy online. So now they do buy online pick up in store or click and collect, they call it in Europe. And it's just become a huge fad. We've seen a 250% increase of the largest retailers of buy online pick up in store in the last year. Absolutely crazy. >> It's pretty wild when Best Buy gets on stage and says, we're not a brick and mortar retailer. (laughing) >> It actually changes the game, right. What else is interesting though is these brick and mortars that have an online presence, they actually have a distinct advantage because of that tangibility, right. You've got the opportunity to do all of your shopping online but you've also got a place to go do showcasing and actually interact with some of those especially more high tech tools. >> Right. >> You guys have been out front on the Magento side. We covered your event last year for the acquisition. And a couple things popped out at me that I want to get your reaction to now. One is obviously the role of the community. But as you started getting into the cloud kind of play the economics are changing, too, right. So you have community, economics and then large scale. These are new table stakes. So what's your reaction to that? How is Adobe and how are your customers adjusting to this new normal? Your thoughts on this shift? >> Yeah, I think that they adjust faster than we expect them to. It's really interesting because as you see these demands for things like cloud operations. Really, that's taking a whole set of responsibilities away from the merchant and allowing a single vendor to provide that as a service and we're seeing that again and again, right. This service based economy that's just becoming much, much more prevalent. What it means for our community and I'm glad you brought that up because our commerce community is the largest in the world, it's highly engaged. We have a tremendous amount of participation from those guys. And they're actually helping lead the way. They help merchants feel good about adopting new technologies. They're also incredibly innovative and they take our product and do things that we would never have thought of. >> They provide product feedback, too, the developers, that creates a nice fly wheel. >> It is a great fly wheel. >> It's a great use case. Congratulations, you guys done some nice work there. >> Oh, thanks, thanks. >> And Adobe's certainly gonna get the benefits of that. The other question I wanna ask you is something I noticed on digital over the years is that, it's gotten more prevalent now that everyone's connected. You know, the old days of buying tech. Let's buy this great project, we'll build it out and multiple year payback and everyone nerds out. It's like a project and they have fun doing it. And then, like, what was the value. When the value today is about money. When people lose money, the friction, all those other kinds of coolness, the shiny new toy, it goes away. >> Yeah, it falls away. >> You're in the middle of that. You see more of that now. People whose businesses are on the line. Security breach or revenue. >> Jason: Yeah. >> I mean, the optimization around the new way just goes right to the problem right there. >> The very best way to tackle that is an iterative experimental way. You've go to be able to make small bets. Learn from those bets and then pivot. This concept that we can take an idea, go into our back rooms and code it for three years and come back out with something that meets the market, it's a fallacy. It's never gonna work, right? So you've gotta start delivering shippable increments much faster, smaller pieces and then make sure that you've got that feedback loop closed so that you can actually respond to your customers. >> Jeff: Right, the other piece which you just talked on briefly but I wanna unpack it in reference to what you just said, two big words. Open source and ecosystem. >> Jason: Yeah. >> And as you said, you can't just go in the back room. Even if you knew the product, you can't necessarily go in the back room and build it yourself. >> Jason: Yeah. >> Fundamentally, believe that not all the experts are in your four walls and that there's, by rule, a lot more outside and leveraging that capability is really a game-changer. >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean, we have three hundred thousand developers that call themselves Magento engineers and don't take a paycheck from Adobe. It's phenomenal what they're able to do and they help us move very, very quickly. We saw last year when the Amazon patent expired for one-click checkout on the day that it expired one of our community members created a pool request that made every Magento store able to take advantage of it. >> John: They were probably waiting right there on that clock. >> Oh no, they were waiting. (John laughing) Because the licensing fees were extortion. >> That's innovation. >> It is. >> That's our example of community driven innovation. >> And that's a great place to go get that, right. Within your four walls, you've got lots of expertise but you always end up with some blinders on. We've got profit margins to go chase. We've got all kinds of good business things to go do. The community, however, completely unfettered. They've got the ability to go try all kinds of cool stuff. >> Two questions on that thread. One is community. A lot of people try the buzzword. Hey, let's get a community. You can't buy a community. You've got to earn it. Talk about that dynamic and then talk about how Adobe's reacted to Magento's community because Adobe's pretty open. >> Yeah. >> They're creatives. I don't think they'd be anti-community. They have developers. They got a bunch of community themselves. So, community, buying a community versus earning it, and then the impact of Magento's community to Adobe. >> You cannot buy it. 100% you cannot buy a community. And you have to deserve it. And really, you have to think about yourselves as custodians of a community rather than, I mean, we're members. We used to have this saying, we are Magento. Everybody inside Magento, in the ecosystem, our partners, our developers. Everybody is part of that solution so trying to own it, trying to exert control over it, it's a recipe for not having it at all, right. So you have to be very cautious and it really is a custodianship. It's an honor and it's a privilege and you have to kind of take it seriously. >> If you get it right, the benefits are multi-fold. >> That's exactly it. >> Now, Adobe, obviously they have, we heard and we see that they're open to that and working with it. >> Adobe has been terrific and it was, I think, one of the biggest fears from our community as acquisition unfolded was hey, Adobe, big corporate company not a lot of open source projects. They've got some but their core isn't about open source and what was gonna happen to our community as we came in. It's been absolutely terrific because Adobe has been absolutely investing and making sure that we continue to be terrific custodians of this community and in fact, they're trying now to expand that community to the rest of their products. They would love to have our community members that are able to go out and innovate so rapidly, do so across the entire Adobe portfolio. >> Well, it's interesting, too. If you have a platform play in the cloud scale and some of these cross functional connection tissue points that's recipe for robust ecosystem development. >> Exactly. >> Because they means there's white space, there's opportunities to build on top of. That's a platform. >> Right, and you will see innovation and ingenuity from that you'll never expect. It's just phenomenal. >> So I'm curious to get your take on a specific feature I wanna dive into which is dynamic pricing. Right, hotels have been doing dynamic pricing forever. You give the authorization to the kid working at the front counter if it's 11 o'clock, you got a open room take whatever walks in the door. >> Jason: Yeah. >> To the airline, it's got very sophisticated but most companies haven't really be able to excuse dynamic pricing. Just curious, when you bring in capabilities that you get now with the Adobe suite and the data now that you have around the customer and the data that you now have around the context, I mean, are we gonna see much better execution of things like dynamic pricing. >> We're gonna see democratization of a lot of those things that were typically reserved to the very, very big industries, right. I think you're looking at airlines, they did a great job. But they invested hundreds of millions of dollars into systems to go do that. Now, with things like Sensei and artificial intelligence our machine learning capabilities, we can actually bring those capabilities to small merchants and everyday folks to go out and do those experiments with your pricing and understand where you have elasticity and where you don't. Once you have that information, you're making much better decisions across the board for your business. >> And that's actually the benefits of the Magento platform and scale that you have. So the question is, as you guys continue to get this cloud scale going, what are some of the platforms priorities for you guys? What product areas you looking at? What white spaces are gonna leap for the ecosystem? Can you share a little insight into what you guys are thinking? >> Yeah, I mean, one, we try to open everything to the ecosystem. There's really not a lot of advantage for us to have anything that's super closed off and secret sauce. We try to make sure that everything is available and so what you'll see is investments in things like SDK's. An SDK is software development kit basically lets you use any language, any tool that you're comfortable with to go ahead and integrate, extend and contribute to our core capabilities. You'll see us continue to invest in making sure that everybody that wants to participate has a very, very easy path to do so. >> And in terms of the developer program, you mention SDK, what's your impression of that? Can you give an update? We're not really familiar with that much, we're learning Adobe. What do you guys have for developer programs within Adobe? >> Well, it is terrific. We have a project called Adobe I/O that actually does a terrific job at sort of standardizing the API and interfaces between all of the different components within the digital experience suite. So, you'll continue to see us investing in that. Certainly, commerce is gonna start participating in that Adobe I/O model and that's going to make it even more broadly available to these great folks. >> Even one of the things we had on The Cube today was a historic moment. We been doing this for 10 years, hundreds of shows a year. We had our first guest on, one of your customers from Metlite. His title was Marketing CIO and I'm like, okay. He's part of the global technology operations team of Metlite. But I think the bigger story there is that we think we'll be a bigger trend than just one-off. We think, we're seeing the connection between the IT world, data, developers, applications coming together where marketing is like a CIO. >> And it's exactly right. We look at the CMO and the CIO as two sides of the same coin. And more often than not they have the same objectives. They're coming at it from a slightly different perspective and so you really do end up having to marry the message so that it resonates not only with the IT folks and usually that's about cloud processes, ease of use, ease of deployment, low cost operation and then on the marketing side it's really about feature availability and visual merchandising and being able to bring their great products to life. >> And an interesting quote, he said, what's it like, to be a marketing CIO, share to others who might to be that. He goes, well, I'm kind of a matchmaker and a translator. (laughing) >> I think that's pretty good a way to put it. Yeah, that makes good sense. >> He puts projects together, translating jargon to business benefits. Emphasis was on the business. You got to know the business. We had Dollar Shape Club on earlier, another one of your Adobe's customers. They were like, no, we need to know the business. It's about the data, data processing, the data systems, business. It has to be blended. It's the art and science of business and technology. >> Yeah, the only get that right when you put the customer right in the middle. You have to build all of those business processes and all of those systems around what that customer's looking for. >> So I'm just curious, Jason, what's changed over the last couple of years, 'cos we've been talking about the 360 view of the customer since, I don't when, but a while. >> A while, yeah. >> And we've been talking about omnichannel marketing and touching the customer for a while but it seems like we've hit a tipping point. Maybe I'm misreading the tealeaves but you know, what are the kind of critical factors that are making that much more a reality than just talk it was a couple years back? >> Well, on omnichannel, we're certainly seeing a maturity, an understanding of what it takes to do omnichannel. It's not just a commerce operation. omnichannel actually stretches back into your supply chain. To be able to really think about the way you deliver to customers as a single channel. Your supply chain has to be highly flexible. Your logistic capabilities have to be extremely flexible and they have to be able to tuned for the things that are important to your customers. Either speed of delivery or cost of delivery. All of those kinds of things. In the omnichannel space, I think we're finally starting to see the maturity of, okay, how do we make these things real. And that's critically important. And the other one. >> 360, 360 view of the customer. >> 360 view of the customer. Almost the same thing there, right. We're finally seeing the technology start to catch up and the big challenge there was we always had one view or the other. You either had a behavioral view of your customer, how they interact with your content. Or you had this great transactional view, the dollar and cents behind a relationship. Now, we're starting to see companies especially like Adobe, that have made these incredible investments to bring those two houses of data together, and that really starts to tell the full story. Again, going back to that customer journey, you need to be able to observe that entire journey in order to make those kinds of decisions. >> Jason, I wish we had more time. I wanna get one more question. I know we might wanna break here. Maybe we can follow up as a separate conversation in Palo Alto. You know, having a digital footprint you hear that buzzword, I'll get a digital footprint out there. It makes a lot of sense but a world that has been dominated by silos, it's hard to have footprint when you have siloed entities. So, in your mind, your reaction between something that's foundational and then data silos. Maybe silos could be okay at the app level but what's the foundational footprint? I mean, foundation's everything. >> Jason: It is. >> Without a foundation, you clearly can't build on. >> Yeah, and we talked a little bit about the Adobe experience platform this morning. Eric Shantenu and Anje will come on and talk about, we've got this amazing capability now to really take that data, standardize it and make it available for all kinds of systems and processes. And I think that's where you're going to see the real foundation for all of these siloed efforts. It's gonna be in this kind of common data understanding, what they call a XDM. >> And customers got silos, too. They've got agencies. All kinds of things out there. >> Absolutely. >> Data everywhere. Jason, thanks for coming on. We really appreciate it. >> Hey, guys, I really appreciate it. Thanks so much. >> Jason Woosley on The Cube here at Adobe Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier. Day one of two days of wall-to-wall live coverage. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Adobe Summit 2019. Brought to you by Adobe. >> Welcome back everyone, live CUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for Adobe Summit 2019 I'm John Furrier. With Jeff Frick. Our next guest is Jeff Allen, Senior Director Product Marketing, Adobe. Jeff, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. Nice to be here. >> So day one is kind of winding down, big, great keynote, laid out the platform product's working together, lot of data, lots of data conversations. >> Yeah, exciting day. Excited to have Adobe Analytics in the mix with that, you saw the four clouds we talked about, Analytics Cloud is one of them and really kind of core to everything we do at Adobe, right? In fact, even in the Creative Cloud side, Document Cloud side, our customers have to be able to measure what they're doing and so, data is obviously key to that. >> Tapping the data across the different applications and now clouds - It's interesting - it's a whole new grail, people have been trying to do for how many years? >> Forever, from the beginning. >> And it's always been that holy grail, where is it? Now some visibility is starting to get to see into the benefits of horizontal scale, diverse data, contextual workloads, >> Absolutely, yeah. >> This is a big deal. >> It is a big deal. >> Explain why it's impacting. >> It's funny. Our culture now expects data right? We measure everything. Our kids are taught to measure things, even something as simple as likes on, my kids, they argue about whether the picture mom posted of them or the other one got more likes, right? So we kind of have hardwired our society around measurement, and now of course, marketing has always been a measurement-heavy discipline, and so, it's just absolutely core to what we're doing. >> And we had a historic moment, we've been doing theCUBE, it's our 10th season, a lot of events. >> Congratulations. >> And we had a guest come on here, that we've never had before, the title was Marketing CIO, it was one of your customers at MetLife >> Interesting, yeah. >> But this brings the question of, of the confluence of you know, the factions coming together. IT, creative, marketing, where the tech, measurement, data. >> Yeah, totally. >> Data processing, information systems, kind of an IT concept now being driven and married in with the business side. >> Absolutely. >> This is really the fundamental thing. >> I started my career marketing to CIOs, in fact, I've spent most of my career marketing to the CIO organization, right, and about 7 years ago, I came over to Adobe to market to marketing, right? And I used to say, "You know I kind of like marketing to this guy, I understand him better," right? Because I know how marketers think a lot better than CIOs, I had to go learn how they thought. But it's amazing how the tech explosion has happened in MarTech and AdTech, all of these vendors here at this event, this is just a piece of our industry, right? There's thousands of companies serving marketing organizations, and so, all of a sudden, the tech stack looks more crazy than even what many CIOs manage, and so it doesn't surprise me at all that organizations, you're talking to organizations that have a CIO/CMO hybrid role. >> Jeff, I'm curious how the landscape is changing, because all the talk here is about experiences, right? And the transaction is part of the experience, but it's not the end game, in fact, it's just a marker on a journey that hopefully lasts a long time. How does that change kind of the way that you look at data, the way customers are looking at data, you know, how the KPIs are changing, and what they're measuring, and the value of the different buckets of data as it's no longer about getting to that transaction, boom, ship the product, and we're done. >> Yeah, so I look after Adobe Analytics, and Adobe Analytics was the first component we acquired in this business, right? Experience Cloud, started with the acquisition of a company called Omniture back in 2009, was an analytics company, primarily web and mobile app analytics, and it has grown since then, to measure many more things. And we've seen our category with analytics that we've addressed move from web analytics to a broader view of digital analytics, right? The digital parts of marketing to all of marketing, the rest of marketing said, "Hey, we need measurements too. We need tools." And then it clicked out another broader click to this idea of experience, right? Because everybody has a stake in experience, and experience is all wrapped around people and how people move through experiences with your brand, so that's where we sit today, is really helping organizations measure experiences, and that spans every person in the organization. >> Talk about the dynamic between how the old way of thinking was shifting to this new way, and specifically, the old way was "I'm a database guy. I've got operational databases and analytical databases," you know, and that was it. You know, relational, unstructured, you know, kind of quadrants. Now, it's kind of, you have (laughs) it's not about databases, it's about data. So you have operational data, which is the analytical data now >> Yeah. >> So you have now, this new dynamic, it's not about the databases anymore >> Absolutely. >> It's about the data itself. >> It's not about, I would say, it's not about the stores of data, right? It's about really getting the insights out of the data, and you know, for the longest time, in my career, uh, you went to CIO, the CIO organization and there was a BI team there, and you would ask them for data, and they could go to the main frame, they could go to these big IT systems, and you know, in 30 days, they could email you back a .csv file, or even before that meeting, give you a .zip file or something with the .csv file on it. And then you got to go see if you could even get it to open on your laptop and get it into Excel and start to manipulate it. And those days don't work. >> And then you go get your root canal right after. It's a painful process. >> What if the data - today that data is trying to understand, "Hey I got a guy that just checked into the hotel. He's standing in front of me, I need to know if he had a bad experience the last time he checked in with us, so I know if I need to give him an upgrade. And you can't go down to I.T. real quick and ask them to take 30 days to get that data and then crunch the data all to find out. Customers need to know, and in the experience business, immediately this person just walked into the hotel and we need to give them a good experience, we blew it last time for them. That's what the experience business wants out of data. >> One of the questions we had with Anjul, who runs engineering on the platform side, was around the rise of prominence of streaming data, how is that impacting the analytics piece, because, you know, if you want the flow, this is a key part of probably your side of the business. Can you comment, what's your reaction to that - streaming trend? >> We've been talking about streaming for a while. CIO, this isn't a new thing, we were streaming applications, right, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, but really in the story I just shared, right? The idea of going down and waiting in this asynchronous process with data, the experience business can't handle that, so streaming data is really implying that, as it's coming in, we're processing it, and learning from it, and getting that out into the systems and the people that can take action, instantaneously. >> Talk about the dynamic that customers have around, traditional silos within their organization, you know, that guy runs the database and data for that department, that person runs the data over there, and if this vision is to be, is to be, is to come true, you have to address all the data, you got to know what's out there you got to have data about the data, you got to know in real time, and these are important concepts. How does a company get through that struggle, to break down those kind of existing organizational structures? >> It's a cultural shift, I mean, who has a desktop publishing team anymore in their organization, right? Everyone does desktop publishing, that is how data is too. Everyone's got to be comfortable with data, they have to be conversing around data, and everyone needs access to data. So, that's, you know, that's what is happening in our industry, the analytics industry, is that we're democratizing that data, and getting it everybody's hands, but it's not enough to give them charts and graphs, they have to be able to manipulate that and make it apply to their part of the business, so they can make a decision, and go, and so, that shift in how people think about data, as it's not part of your - it's part of everyone's job, as opposed to being a specialized, siloed job. >> I'm just curious to get your take, a lot of conversations here about you know, Adobe, using their own products, eating your own dog food, drinking your own champagne, whatever analogy (laughs) you like to use. And when you see the DDOM, right, the Data-Driven Operating Model, on the screen, in the keynote, with the CEO, and he says, "Basically everyone at this company is running their business off of these dashboards, that's got to be pretty, pretty, uh, profound for a guy like you who is helping feed those things. >> It's cool. I like to talk about what I call the modern measurement team. The modern measurement team is no longer that centralized data team, right, or that centralized BI team, but every single function, right, under CIO. Every one of the CEO's directs, has their own data team. You go look around and you see that in every single function, there is a sophisticated data team. They have the best tools in the industry, they have the smartest people they can find, they have PhDs on staff, and that's not enough. So, these teams now have to get that out to every constituent in their organization. And that's what we're trying to do at Adobe, that's what we're seeing our best customers do as well, is trying to inform every decision anybody makes. >> And that's where machine learning really shines. You get high quality data on the front end, with the semantic data pipeline capability, get that into the machine learning, help advance, automate, that seems to be the trend. >> Yeah. Yeah, look the insights that you can get from the data, the ability to predict with rich data, it sounds - prediction sounds like - invention used to sound like this novel thing, right, and then you realize, we're inventing things all the time, that's not so - that's just creativity. Well, the same thing is happening with AI and ML, is we're able to predict things with good statistical modeling, with pretty strong, uh, reliability around those models. >> The keynote had great content, I liked how you guys did a lot things really well, you had the architectural slides, platform was a home run, how you guys evolved as a business, see you laid that out nicely, but one of the things I liked, not that obvious, unless you go to a lot of events like we do, everyone says "The journey of the customer", I mean, it's a, it's become a cliche, you guys actually mapped specific things to the journey piece that fit directly into the Adobe set of products and technologies, and the platform. It's interesting, so the word journey has become, actually something you can look at, see some product, see some - a pathway to get some value. >> There's definitely a risk if the word journey, becomes like "Big Data" and all these cliche terms, you know, that means everything, so it comes to mean nothing. But for us, journey, and as marketers especially, journey is just naturally understanding where did I interact with this person, and what did that lead to along the way, right? And so, customer journey, is absolutely core to data analytics. >> All the hype markets, cloud washing, until Amazon shows them how it's done, everyone else kind of follows, you guys are doing it here with journey, one of the things that came out was a journey IQ. I didn't really catch that. Can you take a minute to explain? >> So we have a couple of things. We have something called Segment IQ, Attribution IQ, and now we have even introduced Journey IQ. And when you see that IQ moniker on one of our, kind of our super umbrella features - that means that we're applying AI and ML, right, and Sensei is involved. So we're using powerful data techniques, and we're also wrapping it with a really simple user experience. So Journey IQ starts to break down the customer journey in terms that a normal person, without a PhD, without knowing statistical methods, or advanced mathematics, can leverage those techniques to get really powerful insights. And that's specifically around the customer journey. >> So the IQ is a marker that you guys use to indicate some extra intelligence coming out of the Adobe, from the platform. >> Yeah, yeah, if we're going to democratize data, right, we have to democratize data science as well, right? And so, a big part of what we're doing at Adobe Analytics is really simplifying the user experience, right? So I don't say, Do you want to run a regression model against this to answer your question? We just say Click this button to analyze. Right? So it's a simple user experience, behind the scenes, we can run these powerful models for the customer, and give them back valuable insights. So, Journey IQ is specifically taking things like cohorts, and introducing cohort analysis into the experience, making it simple to do powerful things with cohorts. >> What's the pitch to a customer when you go to one and talk about all this complicated tech and kind of new, operationalized business models around the way you guys are rolling it out, when they just want to ask you, "Hey Jeff, I care about customer experiences." So, bottom line me. What's the pitch? >> How can you possibly address your customer's needs if you don't know what they think. Right? What they need? So, at the end of the day, the great thing about working with customers, like most businesses do, is customers are happy to tell you where you're getting it right, and where you're getting it wrong, right? And that's all over the data. So all you have to do is develop a culture of using data to make decisions, and 9 times out of 10, if you have the right data, and people are using the data to make decisions, they are going to make the right calls and get it right for your customer. And when they don't, they're using opinions and they're going to get it wrong all the time. >> Or, bad data, could be hearsay. >> Or you course correct, or that wasn't - you know, make an adjustment. Right? Again, based on the data. >> Exactly, yeah. >> You're in product marketing, which is a unique position, because you have to look back into the engineering organization, and look out to the customers, so you're, you're in a unique position. What's the customer trend look like right now? What are some of the things you're hearing from the market basket of customers that you talk to? Generally, their orientation towards data? Where are they on the progress bar? What is the state of the market on the landscape of the customer, what patterns are you seeing? >> Good question. So there's a lot of - there's a lot of, um, anxiety around where do I have pockets of data that I'm not able to leverage, and how do I bring that together, so when we tell a platform story, like you heard us tell today, customers are really excited about that, because they know, they've known forever. I mean, this isn't a new problem, like, data silos have been around as long as data has. So, the idea of being able to bring this data into a central place, and do powerful things with it, that's a big point of stress for our customers. And they know, like, "Hey, I have dark spots in my customer experience, that I lose the customer." For example, if I'm heavily oriented around digital, let's say, um, I'm a retailer, and I see a customer, I acquire them through advertising channels, they come through an experience on my website, and they buy the product. Success. I ship the product to them, and then they return it in the retail store. The digital team might not see that return. >> So they might think it was successful. >> They think it was successful. So what do they do? They go take more money and spend it in the ad channel, where that person originated. When in reality, if they could look at the data over time, and incorporate this other channel data, of in-store returns, the picture might look very different. >> So basically, basically. >> It's those dark spots that customers are really needing. >> So getting access to more diverse data, gives you better visibility into what's happening contextually, to open up those blind spots. >> Exactly. Yup. It's just that, adding resolution to a photo. >> Love this conversation, obviously we're data-driven as well on theCUBE, we're sharing the data out there. This interview is data as well. >> Fantastic. >> Jeff, final question for you - for the folks that couldn't make it here, what's the - how would you summarize the show this year, what's the vibe, what's the top story here, what's the big story that needs to be told from Adobe Summit? >> We're just a day in, there a lot, there's a lot to do still, right? We still have two more solid days of this show. But you know, the big themes are going to be around data, they are going to be optimizing the experience for your customers, and what's really amazing is how many customers are here, telling their stories. That's the thing, I wish everybody in your audience could experience by coming here, because there is 300 breakout sessions that feature our customers talking. All of our sessions on main stage, we bring customers out, and we learn from them. That's the best part of my job, is seeing how customers do that. >> Some of the best marketing, you let the customers do the talking, and they're doing innovative things. They're not just your standard, typical, testimonials, they're actually doing - I mean, Best Buy, what a great example that was. >> Cool brand - we work with some of the coolest brands in the world, so, fascinating, brilliant people. >> Marketing, at scale, with data. Good job, Jeff, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Jeff Allen, here inside theCUBE with Adobe. I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick. Stay with us for more Day 1 coverage after this short break. Stay with us.

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering Adobe Summit twenty nineteen brought to you >> by Adobe. >> Well, Brian, welcome to the Cube Lives Conversations here. Recovering Adobe summat twenty nineteen in Las Vegas. I'm tougher with Jeff Frick co hosting for the next two days wall to wall coverage around Adobe Summit, a company that is transformed from some making software to being a full blown cloud and data provider. Changing the user experience That's our Kino revue. Jeff, this morning was the keynote. The CEO Sean Tom knew no. Ryan took over in two thousand seven. Bruce Chizen Cube alumni, right. What a transformation. They actually did it. They kind of kept down low. But over those years absolutely changed the face of Adobe. We're seeing it now with a slew of acquisitions. Now seventeen thousand people attending this conference. This is kind of interesting story, your thoughts >> a lot of interesting stuff going on here, John and I think fundamentally they they took the risk right. They change your business from a by a news buying new license every year for eight hundred bucks. Nine hundred bucks, whatever used to be for Creative Cloud to go to an online model. And I think what was interesting about what Johnson, who said, is when you are when you're collecting money monthly, you have to deliver value monthly. And it completely changed the way that they paste their company the way they deliver products the way their product development works. And they moved to as we talked about all the time, instead of a sample of data that's old and making decisions. Now you can make decisions based on real time data in the way people are actually using the product. And so they've driven that transformation. And then now, by putting your whole sweet and with these gargantuan acquisitions of Mar Keto, now they're helping their customers really make that transition to a really time dynamic, digitally driven, data driven enterprise to drive this customer experience. >> It's interesting. Adobes, transformations, realist, legit It happened. It's happening. It's interesting, Jeff, you and I both live in Palo Alto, and I was looking through my Lincoln and my Facebook. There's literally dozens of friends and your colleagues over the years that I've interfaced with that all work at Adobe but feed all the acquisitions. They've built quite a huge company, and they brought a different set of experiences, and this is the to be the big story. That hasn't been told yet. Adobe again. This our first time covering Adobe Summit and excited to be here and continue to cover this. But here's what's going on That's really important. They transformed and are continuing Transformer. They did it in a way that was clever, smart and very predictive in their mind. They took a slow, slow approach to getting it right, and we heard the CEO talk about this. They had an old software model that was too slow. They want to attract the next generation of users, and they wanted to reimagine their product and the ecosystem changed their business model and change their engagement with customers. Very targeted in its approach, very specific to their business model. And their goals were innovate faster, moved to the cloud moved to a subscription based business model. But that's not it. Here the story is, the data equation was some kind of nuances in the keynote, like we didn't get the data right. Initially, we got cloud right, but data is super important, and then they got it right, and that's the big story. Here is the data driven and this is the playbook. I mean, you can almost substitute Adobe for your company. If someone's looking to do Tracy, pick your spots, execute, don't just talk about >> it, right? Right? Yeah. They call it the DDO in the data driven operating model, and he pulled up the dash board with some fake data talked about The management team runs off of this data, and when you know it's everything from marketing spend and direct campaigns and where people are sampling, there was a large conversation, too, about the buyer journey. But to me, the most important part is the buying act is not the end of the story, right. You want to continue to engage with that customer wherever and however, and whenever they want you. There was an interesting stat that came out during the keynote, where you know the more platforms your customer engages with you, the much higher the likelihood that they're goingto that they're going to renew, that they're going to retain so to me. I think you know, we talk a lot about community and engagement and this experience concept where the product is a piece of the puzzle, but it's not. It's not the most important piece that might be the piece Well, what she experiences built around, but it's It's just a simple piece. I think the guy from Best Buy was phenomenal. The story, the transformation, that company. But they want to be your trusted. A provider of all these services of two hundred dollars a year. They'LL come take care of everything in your home so you know they don't just want to ship a box. Say, say goodbye. They want to stay. >> Well, let's talk. Let's talk about that use case. I think the best bike Kino Best Buy was on the Kino with CEO. But I think that what I what? I was teasing out of that interview and you just brought it up. I want to expand on that They actually had massive competition from Amazon. So you think, Oh my God, they're going to be out of business? No, they match the price. They took price off the table so they don't lose their customers who want to buy it on Amazon. You can still come in the story of experience, right? They shifted the game to their advantage where they said, we're not going to be a product sales company. We're going to sell whatever the client want customers want and match Amazons pricing and then provide that level of personalization. That then brought up the keys CEOs personalization piece, which I'd like to get your thoughts on because you made a stat around their emails, right, he said, Quote personalization at scale, Right? That's what they're >> that's that they're doing right? And he talked about, you know, they used to do an e mail blast and it was an email blast. Now they have forty million versions of that e mail that go out forty million version. So it is this kind of personalization at scale. And you know, the three sixty view of the customer has been thrown around. We could go in the archives. We've been talking about that forever. But it seems that now you know the technology is finally getting to where, where needs to be. The cloud based architectures allow people to engage in this Army Channel way that they could never do it before. And you're seeing As you said, the most important thing is a data architecture that can pull from disparate sources they talked about in the Kenya. The show does they actually built their customer profile as the person was engaging with the website as they gave more information so that they can customize all this stuff for that person. Of course, then they always mentioned, But don't be creepy about it. I >> don't have too >> far so really delivering this mask mask, personalization at scale. >> I think one of the lessons that's coming out a lot of our interviews in the Cube is Get the cloud equation right first, then the data one. And I think Adobe validates that here in my mind when it continue investigating, report that dynamic the hard news. Jeff The show was Adobe Cloud experiences generally available, and I thought that was pretty interesting. They have a multiple clouds because a member they bought Magenta and Marquette on a variety of other acquisitions. So they have a full on advertising cloud analytics, cloud marketing cloud and a commerce cloud. And underneath those key cloud elements, they have Adobe, sensi and Adobe Experience platform, and we have a couple of night coming on to talk about that, and that's making up. They're kind of the new new platform. Cloud platforms experience Cloud. They're calling it, but the CEO at Incheon quote. I want to get your reaction to that. This, he said, quote people by experiences, not products. That's why they're calling it the experience cloud. I hear you in the office all the time talking about this, Jeff. So it's about to experience the product anymore, >> right? It is the passion that you can build around a community in that experience. My favorite examples from the old days is Harley Davidson. How many people would give you know they're left pinkie toe, have their customers tattoo their brand on their body? Right in The Harley Davidson brand is a very special, a special connotation, and the people that associate with that really feel like a part of a community. The other piece of it is the ecosystem. They talk about ecosystem of developers and open source. If you can get other people building their business on the back of your platform again, it's just deepens the hook of engagements that opens up your innovation cycle. And I think it's such a winning formula, John, that we see over and over again. Nobody can do by themselves. Nobody's got all the smartest people in the room, so get unengaged community. Get unengaged, developer ecosystem, more talk of developers and really open it up and let the creativity of your whole community drive the engagement and the experience. >> We will be following the personalization of scale Cube alumni former keep alumni who is not at the show. I wanted to get opinion. Satya Krishna Swami. He's head of persuasion. Adobe had pinned them on linked him. We'LL get him on the Cuban studio so keep on, we're going to follow that story. I think that's huge. This notion of personalization of scale is key, and that brings us to the next big news. The next big news was from our friend former CEO of Marquette. Oh, Steve Lucas. Keep alumni. They launched a account based experience initiative with Adobe, Microsoft and Lincoln, and I find that very interesting. And I'd start with Ron Miller TechCrunch on Twitter about this. Lincoln's involved, but they're keeping in Lincoln again. The problem of data is you have these silos, but you have to figure out how to make it work. So I'm really curious to see how that works, so that brings up that. But I think Steve Lucas it was it was very aggressive on stage, but he brought up a point that I want to get your thoughts on, He said. Were B to B company, but we're doing B to seeing metrics the numbers that they were doing at Marquette. Oh, we're in the B to see rain. So is this notion of B to B B to see kind of blurring? I mean, everyone is a B to C company these days. If everything's direct to consumer, which essentially what cloud is, it's a B to see. >> Yeah, well, it's interesting records. We've talked about the consumer ization of again. Check the tapes for years and years and years, and the expectations of our engagement with applications is driven by how we interact with Amazon. How we interact with Facebook, how we interact with these big platforms. And so you're seeing it more and more. The thing that we talked about in studio the other day with Guy is that now, too, you have all these connected devices, so no longer is distribution. This this buffer between the manufacturing, the ultimate consumer, their products. Now they're all connected. Now they phone home. Now the Tesla's says, Hey, people are breaking in the back window. Let's reconfigure the software tohave a security system that we didn't have yesterday that wasn't on our road map. But people want, and now we have it today. So I think Steve's perception is right on. The other thing is that you know, there's so much information out there. So how do you add value when that person finally visits you in their journey? And let's face it, most of the time, a predominant portion of their engagement is going to be Elektronik, right? They're going to fill out a form. They're going to explore things. How are you collecting that data? How are you magic? How are you moving them along? Not only to the purchase but again, is that it was like to say, is never the orders, the reorder in this ongoing engagement. >> And that's their journey. They want to have this whole life cycle of customer experience. But the thing that that got that caught me off guard by McKeen against first time I went satin Aquino for an adobe on event was with me. All these parts coming together with the platform. This is a cloud show. Let's plain and simple. This is Cloud Technologies, the data show we've gone to all the cloud shows Amazon, Google, Microsoft, you name it CNC Athletics Foundation. This is a show about the application of being creative in a variety of use cases. But the underpinnings of the conversations are all cloud >> right, And they had, you know, to show their their commitments of data and the data message right? They had another cube alumni on Jewell of police have rounded to dupe some it all the time, and she talked about the data architecture and again, some really interesting facts goes right to cloud, she said. You know, most people, if you don't have cloud's been too much time baby sitting your architecture, baby sitting your infrastructure Get out of the way Let the cloud babe sit your infrastructure and talk. And she talked about a modern big data pipe, and she's been involved with Duke. She's been involved with Spark has been involved in all this progression, and she said, You know, every engagement creates more data. So how are you collecting that data? How are you analyzing that data and how are you doing it in real time with new real time so you could actually act on it. So it's It's very much kind of pulling together many of the scenes that we've uncovered >> in the last two parts of a Kino wass. You had a CEO discussion between Cynthia Stoddard and >> Atticus Atticus, other kind. Both of them >> run into it again. Both big Amazon customs, by the way, who have been very successful with the cloud. Then you had and you're talking engineering, that's all. They're my takeaway from the CEO. One chef I want to get your thoughts on because it can be long in the tooth, sometimes the CEO conversation. But they highlighted that cloud journey is is there for Adobe Inn into it? But the data is has to be integrated, totally felt like data. Variables come out the commonality of date, and she mentioned three or four other things. And then they made a point and said, quote data architectures are valuable for the experience and the workload. This is critical with hearing us over and over again. The date is not about which cloud you're using. It's about what the workload, right, right? The workloads are determining cloud selection, so if you need one cloud. That's good. You need to write. It's all depending on the workload, not some predetermined risk management. Multi cloud procurement decision. This is a big shift. This is going to change the game in the landscape because that changes how people buy and that is going to be radical. And I think they're they're adobes right on the right wave. Here they're focusing on the user experience, customer experience, building the platform for the needs of the experience. I think it's very clever. I think it's a brilliant architecture. >> Yeah, she said that the data archive data strategy lagged. Right? The reporting lag. They're trying to do this ddo m >> um, >> they didn't have commonality of data. They didn't have really a date. Architecture's so again. You can't build the house unless you put in the rebar. You build the foundation, you get some cement. But once you get that, that enabled you to build something big and something beautiful, and you've got to pay attention. But really, we talk about data driven. We talk about real time data, they're executing it and really forcing themselves by moving into the subscription business model. >> Alright, Final question I want to get one more thought from you before I weigh in on my my answer to my question, which is What do you mean your opinion? What was the most important story that came out of the keynote one or two >> or well or again? You know, John, I was in the TV business for years and years before getting into tech, and I know the best buy story on what came before them and what came before them and what came before them. So what really impressed me was the digital transformation story that the CEO shared first, to basically try to get even with their number one competitors with which was Amazon in terms of pricing and delivery. And then really rethink who they are Is a company around using technology to improve people's lives. They happen to play in laundry. They play in kitchen, they play in home entertainment. They play in computers and education, so they have a broad footprint and to really refocus. And as he said, To be successful, you need to align your corporate strategy and mission with people's strategy and mission. Sounds like they've been very successful in that and they continue to change the company. >> I agree. And I would just kind of level it up and say the top story, in my opinion, wass the fact that Adobe is winning their innovating. If you look at who's on stage like best buy into it, the people around them are actually executing with Cloud with Dae that at a whole another level that they've gone the next level. I think the big story here is Adobe has transferred, has transformed and continues to do transformation. And they just had a whole nother level. And I think the story is Oracle will be eating their dust because I think they're going to tow. You know, I think sales force should be watching Adobe. This is a big move. I think Oracle is gonna be twisting in the wind from adobes success. >> Well, like he said, you know, they tie the whole thing together from the creativity, which is what creative cloud is to the delivery to them, the monetization in the measuring. So now they you know, they put those pieces together, so it's a pretty complete suite. So now you can tie back. How has my conversion based on What type of creative How is my conversion based on what type of campaigns? And again the forty million email number just blows me away. It's not the same game anymore. You have to do this and you can't do by yourself. You gotta have automation. You got have good analytics and you got a date infrastructure that will support your ability to do that. >> So just a little report card in adobe old suffer model that's over. They have the new model, and it's growing revenues supporting it. They are attracting new generation of users. You look at the demographics here, Jeff. This is not, you know, a bunch of forty something pluses here. This is a young generation new creative model and the products on the customer testimonials standing on this stage represent, in my opinion, a modern architecture, a modern practice, modern cloud kind of capabilities. So, you know, Adobe Certainly looking good from this keynote. I'm impressed, you know. Okay, >> good. Line up all the >> days of live cube coverage here in Las Vegas for Doby summit. I'm John for Jeff. Rick, Thanks for watching. We'll be back with a short break

live from Las Vegas it's the queue covering Adobe summit 2019 brought to you by Adobe welcome back everyone live cube coverage here in Las Vegas for Adobe summit 2019 I'm John fry with Jeff Frick two days of wall-to-wall coverage our next guest is Josh Van Tonder group product marketing manager to Dobby thanks for joining us thanks pleasure you're managing the marketing of the products of experienced manager within the platform great event here really the keynote we have agreed a good view good review this morning it's a great platform a lot of elements to it journey it's the Holy Grail that's super interesting and I mean I think you can see the Holy Grail you know it's it's just great actually hearing from the customers right I think it comes to life when you hear the stories they're telling kind of the solutions they're bringing a market on top of it it's it's it's very exhilarating for the product teams to see it all in action and coming to life through the customers you know we cover hundreds of events a year we hear all the stories everyone talks about innovation it's really happening here is gadot bees transform to cloud years ago so now you start to see Marketo Magento coming through the mix full platform architecture open API is open data this is the beginning of a sea change we started to seeing customers having the end-to-end experience where each functional element can do its job and connect with the data this is progressive that's great stuff it's great stuff so so where where are we what's going on with the product what's what's going on how our customers dealing with this because you got Best Buy up there forty million emails personalized yep personalization at scale yep I mean I think the the crux of what's going on is I think a lot of the organizations I mean essentially the name of the game is delivering personalized experiences right I mean how do you how do you get someone to have that moment that moment of truth where they they get to see and interact with the brand in a way that's relevant to that right I mean I think we all we all respond that way I think you know even statistics show that our own statistics show that so we've done some surveys of other consumers um it's 51 percent say I'm much more likely to buy something from a if it's personalized and 49 1% are gonna say look I'm gonna be more loyal to you because it is relevant to me which makes sense I think you and I would probably agree that if it's it's the nail on the head I want to bring up a point that the in the keynote the CEO said he said people don't buy products they buy experiences okay and this is now kind of become the the kind of the mission of all companies just seeing a big frame with direct-to-consumer yeah in all verticals not just B to B to C directly consumer so now companies can go direct to the consumer so how does that change like the ite equation because the old days were you know Bill stack and rack servers load some soft yeah sell it to a customer but now you're dealing with a user experience model that's everywhere yeah that's an interesting basis I mean a the crux of the issue is under the underneath that is it takes contents and data together to kind of deliver the great experience and at the end of the day IT is front and center as the enabler strategically for how that gets delivered I think what we've been seeing is they're they're sort of I would say four key pillars elements that that they've been using to turn their portfolio to be a strategic advantage so one is how do you manage omni-channel right I mean I guess it's getting further with your message so it's if that's essentially an omni-channel thing the other is being faster about getting to market with that message so you know maybe how does cloud play into that how does how do you enable the marketing teams and then I think the last thing and this is this is one that's been a hot topic is where does where does AI simultaneously help drive that better experience so I think those are sort of the pieces we're seeing coming into play from an IT standpoint where they they have a lot of a lot of influence to advance the overall business mission you know Jeff and I were talking about our intro about how the cloud has really in changed the game with Adobe and the customer base you know the old cloud conversation around DevOps and around the building applications work waterfall processes are gonna be dismantled by agility process based processes you started to see that now with content and creative yet we're agility and feed and data are now the new thing so a Content developer is kind of like a software developer for software you guys are providing cloud tech capabilities for content developers yeah creative developers that's right kind of metaphor there what's how do you view that how do customers react to that that's interesting I mean I think you you know usually you bring up the one side is cloud agility and the corollary to that it's just overall content velocity if you will right so I think from a cloud standpoint the the model would be you know how do i how do I get to market faster and in more geographies how to get to more geographies how do I you know support rolling out new infrastructure or new products more more quickly on the cloud infrastructure and then how do I deal with growth right how do i ami system if you look at it from the content lens which i think is what you're getting at there's a similar paradigm in terms of this agility so from an IT standpoint how do you enable someone that's on the marketing team to discover their content to reuse it more effectively and then deploy it more effectively and there are many pieces to the ité equation that fundamentally empower if you will let that velocity in terms of being able to manage discover and and frankly optimize that content as you get it out there so it's an interesting thing that I think we've been doing a lot of looking at a lot of product innovation specifically from an Adobe standpoint in terms of actually enabling that that product velocity which I mean the platform out there basically is the architecture for the platform to do that yes elements so this is just a perfect storm that's come together finally in terms of capability because we've talked about 360 view of the customer ad nauseam and and we've talked about omni-channel for many many many years but I think the execution on those was was was certainly lagging behind the vision but is it now because of the integration of the platform is it because the Big Data architectures is it because now you know it's it's it's you're reading real-time data on ingest you're not going back this normal data what is it this now and abling just actually execute on the vision that we've been talking about for years yeah I mean I think there there are multiple pieces kind of coming together that are helping so I think you know as you said I think in some sense what you're getting at is there there were historically many silos of how these things have historically been managed and what we're seeing is is a trend towards centralizing that information because ultimately you can drive more insights by looking at it and it's just you get more velocity for reusing it so you know to look at it from let's just take an example of the V omni-channel so if we look at it purely from delivering content what we as say an IOT device comes to market or you have these more advanced single page apps on the web page or an Alexa right what we saw is a rise of separate systems in some sense to manage those but now we're seeing a trend where gosh if we were to have all that content in one place if we had all the analytics behind that in one place we can more effectively personalize the customer journey across each of those and that's effectively what you're hearing a lot of today is can I have sort of a centralized but hybrid model that supports through api's getting that information to different touch points and then the data engine that will allow the personalization across each of that those touch points and that I think is the fundamentally the part that's unlocking a lot of value and is it the acceptance of the of the AI and and kind of the machine learning that's going to help you do it because you can't you can create 40 million emails with the people right you mean you have to have automation and you have to have some intelligence behind that you just can't do it manually so is that where we finally kind of broken through so that I can send 40 million different emails in one campaign with some intelligence and some logic behind who's got what yeah I think you hit the nail and I had that right I mean I think if personalization is the name of the game and you're interacting on more touch points with more pieces of contents how do you get it right for each audience and so that's where AI is it's just adds tremendous a tremendous velocity and help for businesses to get that right so I think you can think of it almost this pipeline to deliver the experience so on one hand how do you create that experience hey I can play a role how do you manage it internally hey I can play a role in terms of discovering the assets and we're using it delivering it it can play a role and actually getting the right content out there I'll give you some examples of that in a second but and then the final piece is it has you know the actual optimization of that right so to give you some examples what we've seen happening is you can literally use the AI the the data on interactions of how people interacting across your system and actually create interfaces on-the-fly for specific segments of audiences right so instead of say I as a marketer creating that interface you know using web development or tooling why not have the system actually recompose what is being served up you know maybe a certain layout with multiple columns works for some audiences maybe it just needs to be one banner with a certain type of image a I can actually do that for you by looking at the analytics of you know how do you react to certain things versus me and drawing corollaries so there's a lot of police places along that chain where AI is the impact is productivity obviously because you know the right to queries or figure out what's come in that's presented to you that's good that's kind of the impact of the marketer right it's about yeah it's about scaling the market or right I mean I think that's one of the big challenges from a business standpoint is you know your team's never big enough to serve every person every single customer as a marketer so that's where a I essentially unlocks that that scale it gives you a marketing team of thousands where you may only have a team of a hundred or twenty depending on the size of the order to tune that up in terms of a customer I've got an Adobe I'm Adobe customer I go the Adobe cloud experience cloud how do I tune this up I mean is there a way that you guys have figured out that allows them to kind of get it up and running fast without a lot of complexity yeah that's like that's a good question it's I mean that's actually it's really critical because that from a marketing standpoint you know IT can bring to bear a number of different technologies but unless they're easy to adopt you're not gonna go anywhere so I think the trick is almost giving marketers the easy button so I think that's that's where a lot of the magic and AI happens is you pick one specific problem you know in Adobe's case we pick a problem where we know we have a lot of intelligence about creative assets and we have visibility and how those are being used so if we bring those together we can solve specific problems about discovering content or how we deliver that optimally but the wit to answer your specific question it's almost as though we try to give an easy button for the marketer right so I feed you a bunch of say audience segments and then I plug you into my my analytics data press a button and I ideally it's gonna just figure it out for me write it and and then test if it works that's the key thing is once you get in a market test it right and and it can do that for you and I don't think there's enough you know kind of highlight on that where you know those dramatic before to do a/b testing now you can test everything you know at such scale it's such detail into your point you think you know your segments and you can create your own segments but you can actually let the Machine create segments based on actual behavior of people which I guess really is enabled by most you know so many of your interactions now with brands is digital so give you that opportunity to grab a piece of that exhaust do the analytics and get some insight out of it yeah that's exactly right I mean I you know data the scale of data I mean everybody's flooded with data right now but it's really where's the needle in the haystack and I think that's that's where AI plays a crucial role I mean it it can do things like figure out anomalies on on your interactions across a large swath of users right if something something you see in the data is it's statistically normal or not and should I pay attention to it and what should i do from it so AI starts to play a role in that it can even do simple things like we all have mobile phones we all want to watch more video on mobile phones the problem is as a business as a marketing team and and I'm sure even you know you folks have the same situation is the content that you create may not be ready to be consumed appropriately on each device right so if I pick up my mol device has it been optimized properly so you can do things like have a I pick the focal points in a video and crop out the rest and follow the focal point and only show that on the phone so well certainly gonna call you up because we have a lot of video we don't have twenty videos here today so a lot of luck but this is the norm people gonna have more velocity of videos that's that's podcasts yep blog posts so the waterfalls I was getting earlier this waterfall thing is over it's more of an agile environment so I got to ask the customer question is that reality yet grounded in the customer base or is it still early adopters or I guess the question is what's the pattern that you're seeing in customers Bart what makes a good market or what makes a good organization to embrace the kind of change that's on our doorstep right now it's a good that's a good question and it I think it takes two to tango I think there's a an IT elements and a marketing elements and I think we're seeing an evolution and how how the two work together in this new model so from an IT standpoint they are the enabler for example to get content onto multiple multiple different channels from a from our marketers standpoint they ultimately are the ones that define and help articulate the right message and type of content if IT and marketers are working well together the more the the IT team is going to enable that market or T marketing team to essentially iterate quickly in content so there's a whole set of things that can be done to enable the marketing team to be agile and getting that content out there so I think you know the evolution I would say is is in in how the two teams are working so I think your waterfall model and past I'd say it's entirely gone but it has been reframed in a ways exploring it that's a good way to test to see if if IT and CM a CIO and the CMO working together yeah probably aligned to four change right they're not maybe not it's so I mean I'll give you a very specific example so one thing that we've been seeing in our world is so for example on cloud you know there's a lot of things you can do more quickly traditionally there have been some waterfall development models what we've seen is IT now has a DevOps process where they're very fast and rolling out application updates but if you can actually standardize that if you can create a pipeline for Creek getting code onto the onto the different environments if you test it and roll it out faster what that means for marketing and business is the time to market goes down so for example we've actually been baking that into our products can we literally here's a best-in-class pipeline for doing an agile development model it's already pre-built into the the infrastructure to enable IT to kind of go faster on the behalf of so here's a question for you put you on the spot sure in all the stores major shifts is always gaps there's always gaps in new markets or white spaces so there's three areas technology gaps skills gaps and culture gaps yep can you talk about what you see as the key gaps that people are starting to get over on figure out how to fill those gaps because they can become direct walkers if they're not resolved so tech gap skills gap and culture gap so just because we talking tech a lot let's reverse it and talk you know sort of the the team and organization elements I mean you think one thing that we've we've definitely been seeing is is if you will the the alignment of what was traditionally a channel management is now moving more closely into the CDO or CMO arm which I think is a good thing right I think what we see as some of our leading customers is the marketing and and chief digital officer x' have increasingly more alignment and a seat at the table of how the individual channel line of businesses are operating and that's a very good thing because it does help close the loop on the customer journey across those channels which I think it's traditionally been a bit of a dilemma so I would say that's one thing we're seeing much more is that the channels the channel management actually going under directly or more alignment with the marketing arm or something like a CDO so on the org side that's one area and that helps with the velocity right and they're rearranging the org structures to align with how does content me to be shared across these teams do you really own that channel is it is it do we do we have a customer journey that is owned across all channels right and I think that's an important conversation that these companies have been struggling with in our and I've evolved a lot in the last few years and we talked about the tech gap already but skills gap what skills are out there that are needed obviously day the machine learning yeah a big one date the machine learning stuff I mean I think Adobe's fuel horse on the races I think we're trying to democratize some of that so as I said earlier the hope is for the marketing team we we give them a neat easy path to to unlock that there are areas where there's been big growth like so for example the front and frameworks and development for single page applications that's an area from an IT standpoint where we've seen a tremendous growth in that technology set and and how that plays a role with the rest of the infrastructure yeah and and and simply how does that actually align with the traditional tools they've been using for managing their websites I think what we've seen is that they're now skill wise and technology wise actually taking of you that you you still have one centralized platform but ultimately you'll have IT developer resources that plug in to say one central hybrid content management system for example any new personas popping out of this just shift that's going on with cloud and and creativity experience cloud any new roles that are emerging that you see popping out yeah I mean I so I mean one example we've seen and it's it's it's been an evolution but you know for example we've seen the rise of something called journey managers right which just goes back to what I was mentioning earlier which are our people that their business and tack align but they're interested in understanding how does a customer actually move across a specific journey so they're mapped to if you will a task a customer's trying to do and how do i optimize that you know assuming and knowing that you know if Josh is going to try and get some customer support he's not just always going to call the support line he's going to try other things and how do I simplify that for him and taking a very holistic view so I think that's that's one thing we've seen more of and it's it's a you know a great way to approach it fascinating insights Josh thanks for coming on I'll give you the final word I put a plug in for what you're working on experience manager what's new what's happening yeah absolutely so we're I'm part of the experience manager team so we're part of the organization that that helps our brands deliver and manage digital experiences so essentially we're enabling if you will omni channel delivery and management of those experiences and a key thrusts for us are around enabling IT to get content effectively across channels and also experience intelligence how do we how do we deliver AI and machine learning innovation to make the marketers job easier for getting personalized experiences to market and enabling IT to support them more efficiently so there's a number of innovations and exciting things that we're very excited about it someone for the congratulations Josh van Tonder group product marketing manager at adobe experience manager his product breaking down what's going on here at Adobe summit and in the industry I'm Jennifer Jeff rick stay with us for more coverage here at adobe summit after this short break

>> From Tavern on the Green, in Central Park, New York, it's theCUBE, covering Veritas Vision Solution Day, brought to you by Veritas. >> Welcome back to the beautiful Tavern on the Green, in the heart of Central Park. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name's Dave Vellante. We're covering Vertias Solution Days, #VtasVision. Veritas used to have the big, single tent, big tent customer event, and decided this year, it's going to go belly to belly. Go out to 20 cities, intimate customer events where they can really sit down with customers across from the table; certainly, this beautiful venue is the perfect place to do that. Harish Venkat is here as the VP of Marketing and Global Sales Enablement at Veritas. Thanks for coming on, Harish. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> So, we're going to change it up a little bit. Let's hit the Escape key a few times and talk about >> Yeah. >> some of the big mega trends that you're seeing. You spend a lot of time with customers. You had some intimate conversations today. What do you see as the big trends driving the marketplace? >> So at my level, what I observe with the highest thing is simplicity, instant gratification, is two things that customers love. Forget about customers, even we as individuals, we love simplicity and instant gratification. Examples around that, you know, think about back in the days where you had to take a picture, process the film, and then realize, "oh my god, the film's not even worth watching." Now you have digital photography, you take millions of pictures, and instantly you view the picture, and keep whatever you want, delete whatever you don't want. A small example of how simplicity and instant gratification is changing the world. In fact, if you listen to Warren Buffett, he'll say, "Invest in companies that is making your life a lot easier," so, if I spread that across the entire industry, I can go on with examples like Netflix disrupting Blockbuster because it made it easy for customers to watch movies at their time, and making it easy for consumption. You look at showrooming concept, where you go to Best Buy's of the world and many others, and look at a product, but you don't buy it right there. You go to your phone and say, "okay, do I do a price compare?" And then order it on the phone, where someone delivers it to your house So the list goes on and on, and the underpinning result as a result of this is disruption, all right? You look at Fortune 500 companies, just in the last decade. Over 52% of those companies have been disrupted and the underpinning phenomenon is all about instant gratification and simplicity. >> And Amazon is another great example of, I remember when my wife said to me, "Dave, you got to invest in this company." It was like... 1997. >> Yeah. >> Invest in this company, Amazon? >> Yeah. >> At the time, it was mostly books, but they started to get into other retail, so right-- >> We missed that boat, didn't we? >> I actually did, but I sold, ah! (laughs) >> I never lost money making a profit, so okay. So, at the same time, customer... Customers just can't get there... >> Yeah. >> Overnight, so what are some of the challenges that they have in getting to that level of simplicity? >> Yeah, so you look at IT spend, and when you look at the breakdown of IT spend, you'll see that about 87%, and in many cases, even greater than 90%, they spend just to keep the lights on and these are well-established companies that I'm talking about. In fact, I was doing a Keynote in, in Minneapolis one time and a CIO came and said, "Harish, I totally disagree." "In my company, it's 96%." >> (Dave laughs) >> Just to keep the lights on! So you're talking about less than 10% of your IT spend gone towards innovation, and then you look at emerging companies who are spending almost 100% all around innovation, leveraging the clouds of the world, leveraging the latest and greatest technology, and then doing these disruptions, and making things simple for consumption, and as a result, the disruption happens, so I think we have an opportunity to re-balance the equation in the enterprise space, and making it more available for innovation than just keeping the lights on. >> So part of that... the equation of shifting that needle, moving that needle, if you will, just eliminating non-value-producing activities that are expensive. We know, still, IT is still very labor-intensive, so we got to take that equation down and shift it. Are you seeing companies have success in shifting, re-training people toward digital initiatives and removing some of the heavy lifting, and what's driving that? >> Yeah, so I think it's a journey, right? So, I mean, the entire notion of journeying to the cloud is one of the big initiative to take out heavily manual-intensive, data center-intensive, which is costing a lot of money. If I can just shift all of those workloads to the cloud, that'll help me re-balance the equation. I view the concept of data intensity, which is really two variables to it. Back to your point, if I can take the non-core activity, rely on my partner ecosystem to say what is best in class solutions that I can use as my foundation layer, and then innovate on top of it, then yes, you have the perfect winning formula to really have a lot of market share and wallet share. If you're trying to do the entire stack by yourself, good luck. You'll be one of those guys who will be disrupted. There is no doubt. >> So well, okay, that says partnerships are very important. >> Without a doubt. >> You're not too alone. >> Channel is very important. >> Yes. >> So, so what do you see, in terms of the ebb and flow in the industry, of partnerships, how those are forming? Hear a lot about "co-opetition," which is kind of an interesting term, that is now, we're living. >> Yeah. >> What's your, what's your observation about partnerships, and how companies are able to leverage them? What's best practice there? >> Yeah, so just as Veritas, we're a data protection leader company. We have incredible market share and wallet share, amongst the Fortune 500 and Fortune 100 companies, but even within our incredible standing, we have to rely on other partners. We don't do everything on our own. We have incredible relationship with our cloud service providers, with the hyper-converged system to the world, like Nutanix. We just announced Pure today, so when we combine those partnerships, we can offer incredible solutions for our customers, who can then take care of the first variable that I talked about, and then innovate on top of it. So I think partner ecosystem is extremely important. For customers, it's very important that they pick the right players, so they don't have to worry about the data, and they can continually focus on innovation. >> We were talking to NBC Universal today, and one of themes in my take-aways was he's trying to get to the... he's a, basically a data protector, backup administrator, essentially, but he's trying to get to the point where he can get the business lines to self-serve. >> Yeah. >> And that seems to me to be part of the simplicity. Now... an individual like that, got to re-skill. Move toward a digital transformation. Move that needle so it's not 90% keeping the lights on. It's maybe you get to 50/50. >> Yeah. What are you seeing in terms of training and re-education of both existing people and maybe even how young people are being educated, your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think the young people coming out of college, they're already tuned to this, so to me, those are the disruptors of the world. You got to keep an eye on those millennials of the world because you don't have to train them more, because they're coming out of college, you know. They don't have the legacy background. They don't have the data centers of the world. They are already in the cloud. They're born in the cloud, sort of individuals, so I think the challenge is more about existing individuals who have the pedigree of all the journey that, you and I, we have seen, and how do you re-tune yourself to the modern world? And I think that presents an opportunity to say, "Okay look, if you don't adapt real quick," "you don't have a chance to survive" "in this limited amount of time you have in the IT space," but having said that, we're also seeing that you have some time window, and that time window will continue to shrink, so when we talk about this transformation journey, you can see year after year, the progress that, that's been made in the transformation, this leap and bound, and that's all related to Moore's Law. You think about computer and storage, it's becoming a lot cheaper, and so the innovation rate is continuing to go up. So you have very limited window: adapt or die. >> So, Harish, we were talking about, we've talked about digital transformation. We talk about simplifying; we're talking about agility. We're talking about shifting budget priorities, all very important initiatives. How is Veritas helping customers achieve these goals, so that they can move the needle from 90% keep the lights on to maybe 50/50, and put more into innovation. >> So four major themes: one is data protection. If you don't have your core enterprise asset, which is your data protected, then you can't really innovate anything on top of it. You'll constantly be worrying about what happens if I have a ransomware attack, what if I have a data outage, so Veritas takes care of it, back to the notion that you pick the best players to take care of the fundamental layer, which is around the data. The second thing that I... I would say Veritas can help is the journey to the cloud. Cloud, again, is another instrument for you to take out cost out of your data center. You're agile, you're nimble, so you can focus on innovation. Do you see the trend? So again, Veritas helps you with that journey to the cloud. It allows to move data and application to the cloud. When you're in the cloud, we protect your data in the cloud. The third thing I would say is doing more with less. I talked about the IT equation already. Software-defined storage allows you to do that. And the last thing I would say is compliance. We can't get away from compliance, the fact that Veritas has solutions to have visibility around the data. You can classify the data. You can always be compliant working with Veritas. You take care of these four layers, you don't have to worry about your data asset. You can worry about innovation at that point. >> So it, to me, it's sort of a modern version of the rebirth of Veritas. When Veritas first started, I always used to think of it as a data management company, not just a backup company. >> Right. >> And that's really what we're talking about here today, evolving toward a data-centric approach, that full life cycle of data management, simplifying that, bringing the cloud experience to your data wherever it is. Could be "on-prem." >> Yeah. >> Could be in the cloud, sort of this API-based architecture, microservices, containers... >> Yep. >> All the kind of interesting buzzwords today, but they enable agility in a cloud-like experience, that Netflix-like experience that you were talking about. >> Absolutely, right, so we're super excited. The one thing I would also say is what our latest net backup, 812, the other thing that I talked about, which is simplicity and ease of use: we are addressing both of that in addition to the robust brand that we have around protecting data. So you now you have simplicity, ease of use, instant gratification, all the basic ingredients, and Veritas is here to protect them. >> Harish, it's been a great day. Thanks for helping me close out the segment here. This venue is really terrific. It's been a while since I've been at Tavern on the Green. Some of you guys, I don't think you've ever seen it before. Seth's down here; he's, he's a city boy but we country bumpkins up in Massachusetts, we love coming down here, in the heart of Yankee country. So thanks very much-- >> Of course. >> For helping me close out here, great segment. All right, thanks for watching, everybody. We're out here, from New York City, Tavern on the Green. You've been watching theCUBE; I'm Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (light electronic music)

(energetic music) >> Announcer: Live from New Orleans, Louisiana, it's The Cube! Covering .NEXT conference, 2018, brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage here of Nutanix .NEXT 2018, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host, Keith Townsend. Happy to welcome to the program two first time guests. We have Sherry Lautenbach who's the SVP of America Sales with Nutanix and Inder Sidhu who is the EVP of Global Customer Success, also with Nutanix. Sherry and Inder, thanks for joining us. >> Sherry: Thank you. >> Alright, so Sherry, first of all, you were up on stage this morning celebrating customers, we actually had the chance yesterday to nominate one of the, to interview one of the, nominees there and talked about what that meant to them and it was really talked about, you know, it's validation, where you know, we're trying something, we think we went out beyond what other people are doing and getting that validation back was just, they were really excited just to be nominated, so, you know, take us inside. >> Yeah, so first of all, we had hundreds of nominations, so it was super hard to choose and break it down to the finalists and then of course the winners, but for us, it was about innovation about cloud trailblazers, you know, dev ops, lots of different types of awards this year, and recognizing things that customers are doing to innovate with Nutanix. The best award we did have was Art.Heart give-back award and that, you know, it says a lot about our company that we focus on what companies are doing to better the communities they live in and the world in general, so. >> Yeah, and JetBlue is the winner there. >> Absolutely. >> Have to say, it makes me even happier to talk about, I have status with JetBlue, cause I fly to a lot of shows. >> Yeah, I can imagine Doug, they've been a great partner of ours, a great spokesperson, and they've really leveraged our technology to innovate with their company, so it's been a, it was a great morning. >> Alright, Inder, we watched Nutanix since the early days, discussion about NPS scores, and when you can't, when you come to an event like this, you can't help but feel the passion of the customers - over 5500 people here. Talk to us about what your role is, your engagement with customers, that whole customer success, and what that means. >> Yeah, customer success in my mind, Stu, is probably the single most important thing that we do at Nutanix, and the reason is because customers drive everything that the company does; it drives our employee behavior, it drives our partner behavior, it drives our product roadmaps. We're an outside-in company, fundamentally, and therefore, driving the customer success holistically, not just in terms of support after they might have an issue, but holistically, end-to-end over the entire life cycle is very very important for us. So, we're creating an organization, an investment, reporting all the way to the CEO to drive exactly that and we're very excited about that. >> Right, and I call it customer obsession, so I've been at Nutanix six months, the first day I showed up to headquarters, they gave me my laptop, and then they brought me up to the customer support area and said, "This is why we're so successful, because we are maniacally focused on ensuring our customers are being delivered value every day." And with a focus on our NPS four daily. So, for me, that was super impressive, and we don't let up on it. >> Stu: You know, Sherry, and I love some of the pieces. You were talking about innovation, talking about developers-- >> Sherry: Yes. >> We've been talking to a lot of customers about their digital transformation. It's not just, "Oh, okay, I'm re-platforming," it's more than that, talking about, what one of the customers said is, you know, "Business as IT." >> Right, no absolutely. So, digital transformation is clearly the buzzword, but it is all about what are companies doing to transform their businesses to become digital. And, Dheeraj always says, you know, "To be in that digital transformation journey is all about what you do to transform not only your IT operations, but the business." And the business drives what digital transformation does, absolutely. And it's not just creating things online or creating a presence, but its actually innovating yourself to differentiate yourself from your competition. We've seen that time and time again on what Amazon did to bookstores or what Netflix did to Blockbuster. And those types of things are the innovation that drives the change. >> Keith: So, Inder, speaking of innovation-- >> Inder: Mmhmm. >> Nutanix digitally transformed themselves into a software company. You guys made a lot of announcements, a lot of new products in the pipeline, a lot of new features available: GA as of the show. Nutanix has become a bigger company, valuation over nine billion dollars, as you get bigger, it's hard to keep that NPS score over 90. Where's the focus and how do you do it as Nutanix grows? >> You know one of the things, I think, as we become a big company in terms of size and scale, in terms of our heart and in terms of our spirit, we're very much a small company. I go tell customers, there is going to be times when we'll screw up. But you'll never find any company that's going to work harder than us to drive your success. And that's where the intent is, that's where the focus is. We're going to do whatever it takes from an holistic end-to-end customer perspective. We're assigning customer success managers to some of our largest customers so we can proactively engage with them, especially along three dimensions. We're not like a lot of other technology companies, where you just try to sell them technology, we're around three things: we want to make sure make sure that our customers can be organizationally proficient, we want to make sure they're operationally efficient and we want to make sure that they're financially accountable. All three of those dimensions have to do with stuff that's important to them. As we make them successful along those dimensions, automatically the technology starts to get adopted and they start seeing some benefits. >> So, Sherry, let's talk about that customer success manager. What are they empowered to do, like, if there's a problem, how do they make it right? >> Well that's a great question, they're empowered to do whatever it takes on behalf of the customer to ensure that one, they're deploying our technology well and they're finding great value in it. It's interesting, I've spoken to many customers at this conference and so many of them have said, you know, using Nutanix has changed my career, my career trajectory, and the business value I provide the organization, not just from an IT standpoint, but on the business side. And so for me, there's no greater compliment when our customers, they're cheering for us, they're rooting for us cause we're helping to transform what they do every day. So the customer success manager is just going to be an overlap in terms of ensuring and driving that success as we get deeper and deeper into these customers. >> And what we're going to do is we're going to start out with customer success managers more at the top of the pyramid, some of the largest accounts, but remember, we still have hundreds and hundreds of account team members from Sherry's team and others; SEs, all of whom provide an even greater leverage, and then extending all the way through our partners. So we have a high-touch model at the top with CSMs, we have a medium-touch model with SEs and account teams and insight sales reps and partners in the middle, and on the bottom of the pyramid, we've got a tech-touch model, where we're going to actually leverage our technology with self-service portals and so on with emails and webinars and training and material that can actually drive their end-to-end success, very focused on that. >> Stu: Sherry, I'm wondering if you can dig in some of the organizational pieces that Inder was talking about. From your customers as you move up the food chain with the products, what are you hearing from your various constituencies inside of companies? >> Inside of our customers? >> Stu: Inside of the customers, yes. >> Right, so, well we cover, in terms of an organizational size, we cover all different types of customers in various ways. We have dedicated account people to our largest accounts alongside with SEs of course. And we leverage our partners, though, in our channel and everything we do, so they're considered an extension of our sales force, which I think is truly valuable and really important that we ensure that they drive success with our customers. >> Anything special you're hearing when you get up to the C-Suite, pain points, that they're hearing more than you heard in the architect or admin standpoint? >> Yeah, no, they're looking for more of, you know, helping to rationalize cloud: how do I get to cloud, what's the right balance in terms of hybrid, on-prem, off-prem, and really, understanding the business value and drivers around it, not just cost efficiency. It's about transforming different areas of their business and many of the C-Suite customers that I speak to really are approaching it many different ways, dependent on what is the key pain point and business problem they're trying to solve. >> Inder: So, two things I'd say to add to Sherry's answer there is that what we see is customers wanting to engage more architecturally rather than an individual point product through a consultative process that is more around business outcomes. So it's not something necessarily new, but it's a little bit new for Nutanix, cause we've historically engaged at the technology level, and now you're finding more and more. Of the Fortune 50, we have 33. Of the Fortune 100, we have 66. So we're actually starting to get to really large customers in a big way. They want a deeper, architectural, all-in engagement, and as our portfolio starts to expand from just HCI to Flow and Beam and Xi and all of those, they're saying gosh, I mean I just literally ran into a CIO in the elevator, coming down this morning, and he said gosh, we were thinking about doing NSX but now that I came here and I heard about Flow and I heard about Xi, I think I'm going to go all-in with you guys, I'm going to put that thing on ice, and really work with you guys on this. Literally, unsolicited, in the elevator, this morning. >> Keith: That's impressive. So as we, on all those lines of growth, you guys have a huge user community: 70,000 participants, and this morning, Dr. Brennan, I'm sorry, Dr. Brené Brown talked about having difficult conversations around diversity. I want to first give you guys kudos, this is from an optics perspective been one of the most diverse technology conferences I've attended from an entertainment to the onstage presence to the keynote speakers, awesome job. As you guys are working towards having a more diverse user set, how are you helping your user community be successful along with their careers from a diversity perspective and whereas a career development perspective. >> Great question, and yes, I'm super proud of the diversity, things we're doing in the company. Just yesterday, I hosted a women's IT luncheon, so we celebrated the women around Nutanix so that was all about building a network of all of our customers: female and male, they were included too in this luncheon. And we had over 130 people, spent time, I said let's exchange business cards, let's talk about some of the challenges you face. We had one of our board members, Sue Bostrom share some very personal stories about challenges she's faced and opportunities to help advance her career, gave a great perspective on that. We also had the CEO of FlyWheel, she talked about failing fast and pivoting, and that to me was great little lessons and tidbits that we can provide our customers to say let's empower you to be even better and to build your network even more effectively. >> And if I can add to that, I think, what we're always looking for is a diversity of ideas, and those diversity of ideas is not just a nice-to-have, it's a must-have because it actually drives positive business outcomes from us when we start to represent what our community of users and what our community of customers is. And that diversity of ideas comes from people who have had a diversity of backgrounds, across a wide range of dimensions of diversity, and that's what we're really looking for. We're not necessarily solving for outcomes, we want to solve for opportunity, and make sure that everybody has that equal opportunity to engage and participate, and the more we do that, the richer we get, the more powerful we get, the more alive we become, I think, with diversity. >> Right, I mean, you think about that, you know, our traditional influencer was in the data center side, but we've found now in terms of diversity of our portfolio, the developer is going to be just as important of an influencer for Nutanix, so we're looking at it from not only our customers and who but what they do. >> Stu: Inder, I was wondering if you could get some colla rosso on the vertical side of things, we know you started early very much in the public sector phase, had a lot of strength there, so speak to how else you're growing in the vertical space. >> Inder: Yeah, one of the things we're doing is as we get into bigger and larger customers, as you know, we have 9000 customers, adding a thousand every quarter, we have about 642 after global 2000 customers and so, as we get into those, those customers want us to be able to talk to them in their language, around their issue. So I'll give you a great example, you know, recently, we hired a guy, his name is Don Mims out of Baylor Scott & White as a Customer Success Manager. Here's a guy who's done everything the Nutanix products, implemented them all through Baylor Scott & White, 7000 beds, 48 hospitals, and here's a guy who's implemented Nutanix, he's implemented AHV, he's implemented Epic. I got 40 other customers in the US alone who want to implement Epic and AHV in the healthcare sector among the provider community, and we're going to go towards those customers with that kind of verticalized expertise. Same thing around financial services, same thing around retail. I mean, when you look at retail, Walmart, Home Depot, Tractor Supply Company, Nordstrom, Target, you know, Best Buy, Kohls, we've got a wide range of customers who give us insight into their operations, and when we engage with them, when you're talking to a retailer, you're talking about dollars per square foot, you're talking about same store sales, you're talking about a flexible workforce and then you translate that into IT, which translates into a hybrid public-private flexible infrastructure. So as we have these conversations, they're very engaging, and we are starting to verticalize if you will, in terms of our overlay expertise. Sales force of course is going to be geographic first, because of the proximity that's required, but we're going to have overlay both in the services and in the sales organization that's going to be very noticeable as well. >> And we have found that there are certain geographies and areas that we can verticalize in the field, so, for example, Tennessee or in California, we can build healthcare verticals which has been very effective cause customers want us to talk in their language, understand what critical business applications they can leverage with Nutanix. So we're trying to mirror, as best we can, the vertical point of view in the field. >> Public sector of course is the first vertical that gets carved out for many companies, service providers, the second, we've already got public sector carved out, and one of the things, great kudos to Sherry and her team, you were proactive, Sherry, with Brad Rhodes in kind of carving out healthcare as a dedicated sales region in the West where people have nowhere to hide, you just live and die by the healthcare success, customer success. >> Well, and also, the familiarity on the use cases, right, cause a lot of the use cases are repeatable, so it just makes a lot of sense for us to bring teams together that can go to market that way. >> Keith: So, let's talk about the speed of Nutanix. I love the story, the impromptu meeting, CIO in an elevator, you guys are wowing me with the technologies in ways I never thought of. Let's talk about the other end of it. Where are customers pushing you, saying, "You know what, you guys need to move faster." You have one customer that's on NSX, you have a bunch that are looking way past that. >> Sherry: Right, no that's a great question, and the great thing about Nutanix is we really don't say no a lot, I mean, we've got to be very thoughtful in what we sign up for, but we will innovate and collaborate with customers in every instance. So what is it that you need, you need a support on a platform? We'll give you the right timeframe to do it, but yeah, we're going to do what we can to deliver on that, so, there is a lot that's coming at us from a speed standpoint with our customers and the demands that they have but I think that's a testament to the adoption and the delight that they have of using Nutanix and wanting to expand that in their enterprise. >> Inder: And I think, to some extent, Keith, I think your question is more about where are we perhaps falling short a little bit, and I'll tell you one area where perhaps we could do better, which is for support of a wider array of platforms. So for example, when we go to Asia Pacific, a lot of our customers are telling us, gosh you got support for Dell or Lenovo or IBM, etc., but what about other platforms that are local, Hitachi or Fujitsu or Inspira or Avia, etc.? So we're going to get very disciplined and structured around it, we don't want to over commit and let anybody down, because extending support to multiple platforms is not trivial, but we want to make sure that when we commit, we say what we'll do and we do what we say. And that's a guarantee that we'd like to provide to our customers. >> Stu: Inder and Sherry, I want to give you both an opportunity: just final takeaways you want your customers to know about Nutanix as they leave the show this year. >> Well, we'd love for more customers to come onboard, one thing I've seen with our customers that are here is that they love our technology, they're delighted. We've helped change jobs and careers with many of our customers and for me that's a huge privilege. >> I'd just say that customer success is the single most important thing for us, for our customers, we might make a mistake every once in a while, but you will never find anybody who works harder on your behalf. We've got the energy, we've got the fire in the belly, we've got the agility, and we're going to do everything that it takes to make you successful, no matter what. Period, end of story. So we're all in, we hope you can be all in with us as well. >> Alright, Inder and Sherry, obviously the passion is here from you, from your customers and the team. Thanks so much for joining us today. For Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman, lots more coverage here coming from Nutanix.NEXT, New Orleans, 2018. Thanks for watching The Cube. >> Thank you. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube. Covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC, and it's ecosystem partners. (light music) >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, everybody, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host Keith Townsend. Craig Nunes is here, he's the CMO of Datrium. >> Yeah. >> Dave: Long time CUBE's alum, it's great to see you again. >> Great to be back, awesome. >> Dave: And James Stock is a Datrium customer, he's the Vice President of IT at Grow Financial. James, welcome, first time on theCUBE, looking good man. >> It is, yes, thank you very much. >> All right, Craig, Datrium-- >> Yeah. >> You guys are smoking hot, changing the storage world give us the quick update, we'll get into it. >> Look, we are filling a huge gap, bigger, I think, than we had imagined. Because, a lot of, it's no secret, the array market is in decline. And Hyper Converged has tried to reinvent that market. And it has to a degree on the low end, BDI, that kind of stuff. But data centers need an answer that scales. They need an answer that's got resilience. And it turns out, after all these years, back up is still a problem. Figuring out the cloud is still a problem. And so we put together a system that really takes a tier one approach to HCI, a full on scale out back up system and a cloud DR approach built into one convert system. And customers love it. From cloud to back up to performance in primaries, it's been awesome reception. >> Well, let's see if they really love it, I guess. So James, first of all, so let's start with Grow Financial, your role, you heard the pitch, and then we'll get into how it your applying it to new business. But, tell us about your company. >> So we started in 1955 in a broom closet in McDowell Air Force bases headquarters, there in Tampa. And over the years, we've grown. We're now a $2.4 billion in assets. We have over 200,000 members, and we do lending throughout the south eastern United States. Offices in Tampa, and in South Carolina. >> So in your role, head of IT-- >> Basically, what I tell people, is that if it plugs in, I'm responsible for it. >> (laughs) okay. All right, so, take us through the Datrium project of before and after, what was the motivation? >> So, really, the issue that we were running into is that our existing storage solution, which was the Dell SE, was our trays were running end of life, and if we only had a couple of them, it probably wouldn't have been a problem. We might not of even entertained it, but we had probably two dozen. So, we started looking around and said, "all right, "well, what does it cost to replace what we've got? "and what else is on the market?". And we started to find out that just replacing what we had with like, was going to cost almost 200 grand more than what our full Datrium replacement cost. So, it started making financial sense, right away. But, we met up with Datrium probably, might've been summer of 2016, when they were on version one. And it looked good, you could see the promise, the whole idea of having that back in storage, that was really intriguing, because none of the other players had anything like that at the time. And we said, "All right, we're not ready." And then when they came back out in May of last year, whoa, the difference in what they've done in such a short period of time is what really kind of blew us away. >> Okay, but, we're here at Dell Technologies World, where you guys are a partner of Dells, right? So you're using Dell servers and right? >> James: Yep. >> That's part of the deal here, so, they let you in. >> They let us in, in fact, our compute nodes, it's no secret, our Dell branded compute nodes, and in fact we have partnered with Dell in one of their data centers to set a world record IO mark on Dell here, just to prove a lot of the performance specs that we've shared in the market, proved it out. And we've proved it out on Dell here. >> Cool, so James, talk to me a little bit about your perception of Olby converge. Because I've talked to Craig about Olby convergence versus Hyper convergence versus Converge infrastructure, at the end of the day, you just want a reliable, fast system, however, what about the Olby convergence story drew you today? >> So, I didn't have to replace any of the nodes I had, if I really didn't have, if I wanted too. So I've got CISCO nodes around my call center, I've got Dell nodes, I've got Datrium nodes now. But at the time, it wouldn't have mattered. I could've just, like, in my CISCO environment, I actually had to add a raid controller to the UCS box and then I could throw any solid state drives that I wanted into the device. So that was where it really got compelling, and I'm like wait a minute, so you're telling me, I don't have to buy enterprise flash drives, and stick these into each of my servers. I could just go down to Best Buy, or wherever local, grab something off the shelf, and throw it in there, as long as the server supported it? And, okay, where do I sign up? >> So we've heard that story, and one of the things that some of the hyper converge infrastructure players say, you know what, we could do that, but it's almost impossible to support. Because of firmware issues, et cetera, et cetera. Did you guys run into any of those issues? >> Nope, that's been the greatest thing. When we first started to do our reference calls, it was like everybody I talked to, I said, well, where's the catch? >> Keith: Right. Because that really seemed too good to be true. And customer after customer that I called, they said, "we ran into it with our back ups." But they finished a third of the time faster. I said, "how is that even possible?" and, so we didn't believe it either. We actually had to go back and check because some of our backup jobs finished so fast, we thought it was an error or something like that. They were fine, it was just, you're backing up from flash now, instead of backing up from old spinning discs. >> Okay, so you put the system in, talk about the business impact. It sounds like there was some residual impacts from the initial motivation? >> Right, right, so from the business impact, that's a tough story to sell. Because, really, where we saw it, it was on the backend. And that was the way our systems were before, there really wasn't a huge deal of impact in the business with our old system, until it came back to back up times. Now, where I will say that we still have reductions is, if I have to reboot a server today, our call center application, buyers are putting it on Datrium, it took anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes for that to boot up. Well, 15 to 20 minutes while our call centers down, is like an eternity. Now, that time's down to about five to seven minutes. So, like overnight, you've more than halfed that time. And the same thing with web servers, or anything else that would be member facing, those times have been greatly reduced. So, if I do have to reboot something, because everybody knows it happens, it's sped up the process tremendously for us. >> And what's the secret sauce here? We're talking architecture, just sort of modern approach? Software design? >> So that the secret sauce, if you will, is this split design that runs your workloads. Especially read intensive workloads, on flash, on the host with powerful software, Datrium software. All of your durable data does not live on those hosts, those hosts are not stay full, they can fail at any time, and you still have data availability. So you've got that bullet proof availability, and on the back end, your data's kept secure, it is shared so we don't have any network traffic between hosts, your network doesn't blow up when you install, like it does with a hyper converged approach. And that split provisioning, that split architecture is the breakthrough, and that's why we talk about beyond HCI, we took a good step there. The scale line attributes, VIUM centric admin, but then we really built in tier one capabilities, full on backup, and of course, we haven't talked about it, but access to AWS re-offset backups. >> So, James, let's talk about day two operations. What are the advantages of hyper converged? There's this idea of like I'm one pane of glass. Like, firmware updates, I can free line my operations. Do you guys see similar advantages, day two, versus your previous infrastructures? >> Yeah, I mean, one of the things that saves us a lot of times now, is the fact that there's just one big pool of data out there, instead of having to provision lunds, we were setting up our exchange conversion, so we're building out four or five servers for that. Well, normally, that'd be about a two hour process, not that we were sitting there waiting the whole time, but, all right, we'll carve out some space in this one, twiddle your thumbs, go do something else. Come back, and maybe they'll be done. Well, now, that's like an instant process. So those sort of things are like, "wow, you know what, "I'm saving tons of time", just in admin experiences. In terms of pane of glass, it is a single pane of glass. One of the cool things that we've run into is every now and then, of course, we've got to do our disaster recovery testing, we're a financial institution. Well, Datrium's approach is really unique, and a problem that we used to have, is if I failed over to our DR facility, well, now I've got to bring that data back. Because if you fail in over, it's not a problem, you've already seated that data. Well, it doesn't work the other way around. It does with Datrium. So with Datrium, when I go to bring that data back, it's now doing a differential copy back, so I'm not sitting there for days and days and days, waiting to finish my DR testing anymore. So, there's just so many different benefits that have just been great for us. >> I mean, that's huge, because a lot of times, organizations, they can't test DR's, it's too risky, or they just don't have time, and even on the resources. >> James: Right. >> Did you have that problem beforehand? Or are you guys-- >> Well, yeah, because what you would run into is that it took so much to do it before, that I had to run my guys ragged for two or three weeks. I'm like, "All right, stay up overnight, make sure "it all copies" and then once it's copied, okay bring it back up. So, I mean, yeah, that was a challenge before that's not a problem anymore. >> Burning the team out, right. And or missing your window. >> Well, and because of the way that it's architected with the production groups, I no longer need to use a third party recovery tools to do the transitions back and forth. I can do that, natively, inside their application. >> I would also like to ask practitioners, if you had to mull it again, what would you do over. And it sounds like nothing, or what kind of advice would you give to your peers embarking on a similar journey? >> Do all of your reference calls. See it for yourself, I mean, I take quite a number of reference calls because people are in the same boat I was. Is it true, does it really work the way that you say it does? Yeah, it does. I'll screen share with them, if they want to see our numbers, I'll show them. >> All right, last word, what are we looking for? >> What are we looking for? >> Dave: Looking forward. >> So you're going to see us double down on the work we just went into market. Our DVX 4.0 software which comes with that cloud DVX, cloud based capability. And take that in to full on disaster recovery, orchestration. And not in the too distant future, you'll get the whole run down, so stay tuned. >> Awesome, Craig, thanks for coming on. James, pleasure meeting you. >> Likewise, thank you. >> Good luck with everything. Thanks for hanging out with me. >> Always. >> All right, Keith, good job, good questions. All right, keep it right there everybody, we will be back with our next guest, right after this short break. You're watching theCUBE live, from Dell Technologies World 2018. We'll be right back. (light music)

>> Announcer: From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube! (bright music) Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this special presentation in the Marlborough offices of theCube. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with a friend, a colleague, a mentor of mine, David Moschella who is an author and a Fellow at Leading Edge Forum. Dave, thanks for coming in. It's great to see you. >> Hey, great to see you again. So we're going to talk about your new book, Seeing Digital: A Visual Guide to Industries, Organizations, and Careers of the 2020s. I got it here on my laptop. Got it off of Amazon, so check it out. We're going to be unpacking what's in there today. This is your third book I believe, right? Waves of Power and... >> David: Customer-Driven IT. >> Customer-Driven IT which was under the '03 timeframe coming out of the dot-com, and to me this is your most significant work, so congratulations on that. >> Well, thank you. >> Dave: I know how much work goes into it. >> You bet. >> So what was the motivation for writing this book? >> Well it's a funny thing when books are a lot of work, and during those times you wind up asking yourself why am I (laughing) doing this because they put in so much time. But for the last seven or eight years our group, the Leading Edge Forum, we've been doing a lot of work mostly for large organizations and our clients told us that the work we've been doing in consumerization, in Cloud, in disruption, in machine intelligence was really relevant to not just them but to their wider audiences of their partners, their customers, their employees. And so people are asking can we get this to a wider audience, and really that is what the book is trying to do. >> Yeah, you guys have done some great work. I know when I can get my hands on it I consume it. For those of you who don't know, Dave originally came up with the theory of disintegration to kind of explain the shift from centralized mainframe era to the sort of open distributed competition along different lines which really defined the Wintel era. So that was kind of your work really explaining industry shifts in a way that helped people and executives really understand that. And then the nice thing about this book is you're kind of open-sourcing a decade's worth of research that yourself and your colleagues have done. So talk about the central premise of the book. We're entering a new era. We're sort of exiting the Cloud, Web 2.0 era. We're still trying to figure out what to call this. But what's the central premise of the book? >> Yeah, the central premise is that the technologies of the 2020s will indeed define a new era, and the IT era industry just evolves. We had the mainframe era, the mini era, the PC and the Internet era, the mobility era, and now we're going in this era of intelligence and automation and blockchains and speech and things that are just a entire new layer of intelligence, and that that layer to us is actually more the powerful than any of the previous layers we've seen. If you think back, the first Web was founded around technologies like search and email and surfing the Web, quite simple technologies and created tremendous companies. And then the more recently we have sort of the social era for Facebook and Salesforce. And all these companies, they sort of took advantage of the Cloud. But again, the technologies are relatively simple there. Now we're really looking at a whole wave of just fundamentally powerful technology and so trying to anticipate what that's going to mean. >> So going from sort of private networks to sort of public networks to a Cloud of remote services to now this set of interrelated digital services that are highly accessible and essentially ubiquitous is what you put forth in the book, right? >> Yeah, and we put a lot of emphasis on words. Why do words change? We had an Internet that connected computers and a Web that sort of connected pages and documents and URLs. And then we started talking about Cloud of stuff out there somewhere in cyberspace. But when we look at the world that's coming and we use those words, pervasive, embedded, aware, autonomous, these aren't words that are really associated with a Cloud. And Cloud is just a metaphor, that word, and so we're quite sure that at some point a different word will emerge because we've always had a different word for every era of change and we're going into one of those eras now. >> So a lot of people have questions about we go to these conferences and everybody talks about digital disruption and digital transformation, and it's kind of frankly lightweight a lot of times. It doesn't have a lot of substance to it. But you point out in the book that CEOs are asking the question, "How do I get digital right?" They understand that something's happening, something's changing. They don't want to get disrupted, but what are some of the questions that you get from some of your clients? >> Yeah, that first question, are we getting digital right sort of leads to almost everything. Companies look at the way that a Netflix or Amazon operates, and then they look at themselves and they see the vast difference there. And they ask themselves, "How can we be more like them? "How can we be that vast, that innovative, that efficient, "that level of simple intuitive customer service?" And one of the ways we try to define it for our clients is how do they become a digital first organization where their digital systems are their face to the marketplace? And most CEOs know that their own firm doesn't operate that way. And probably the most obvious way of seeing that is so many companies now feeling the need to appoint a Chief Digital Officer because they need to give that task to someone, and CDOs are no panacea but they speak to this need that so many companies feel now of really getting it right and having a leadership team in place that they have confidence in. And it's very hard work, and a lot of our clients, they still struggle with it. >> One of the other questions you ask in the book that is very relevant to our audience given that we have a big presence in Silicon Valley is can Silicon Valley pull off a dual disruption agenda? What do you mean by that? >> Yeah, if you look at the Valley historically you could see them essentially as arms merchants. They were selling their products and services to whoever wanted to buy them, and companies would use them as they saw fit. But today in addition to doing that they are also what we say is they're an invading army, and they are increasingly competing with the very customers they've traditionally supplied, and of course Amazon being perhaps the best example of that. So many companies dependent on AWS as a platform, but there's Amazon trying to go after them in health care or retail or grocery stores or whatever business they're in. Yeah, content, every business under the sun. And so they're wearing these two dual disruptions hats. The technologies of our time are very disruptive, machine intelligence, blockchains, virtual reality, all these things have disruptive technology. But that second disruptive agenda of how do you change insurance, how do you change health care, how do change the car industry, that's what we mean, those two different types of disruptions. And they're pursuing both at the same time. >> And because it's digital and it's data, that possibility now exists that a company, a technology company can traverse industries which historically haven't been able to be penetrated, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, in our view every industry is going to be transformed by data one way or another. Whether it is disrupted or not is a second question, but the industry'll be very different when all of these technologies come into play, and the tech companies feel like they have the expertise and the vision of it. But they also have the money, and they're going to bet heavily to pursue these areas to continue their growth agenda. >> So one of the other questions of course that IT people ask is what does it mean for my job, and maybe we can, if we have time, we can talk about that. But you answer many of these questions with a conceptual framework that you call the Matrix which is a very powerful, you said words matter, a very powerful concept. Explain the Matrix. >> Okay, yeah. If we start and go back they have this idea that every generation of technology has its own words, Internet, Web, Cloud, and now we're going to a new era, so there will be a new word. And so we use the word Matrix as our view of that, and we chose it for two reasons. Obviously there's the movie which had its machine intelligence and virtual worlds and all of that. But the real reason we chose it is this concept that a matrix as in matrix mathematics is a structure that has rows and columns. And rows and columns is sort of the fundamental dynamic of what's going on in the tech sector today, that traditionally every industry had its own sort of vertical stack of capabilities that it did and it was sort of top to bottom silo. But today those horizontal platforms, the PayPals, the AWSs, the Facebooks, they run this, Salesforce, all these horizontal services that cut across those firms. And so increasingly every industry is leveraging a common digital infrastructure, and that tension between the traditional vertical stacks and these enormously powerful horizontal technology firms is really the structural dynamic that's in play right now. >> And at the top of that Matrix you have this sort of intelligence and automation layer which is this new layer. You don't like the term artificial intelligence. You make the point in the book there's nothing really artificial about it. You use machine intelligence. But that's that top layer that you see powering the next decade. >> Absolutely, if you look at the vision that everybody tends to have, autonomous cars, personalized health care, blockchain-based accounting, digital cash, virtual education, brain implants for the media, every one of those is essentially dependent on a layer of intelligence, automation, and data that is being built right now. And so just as previous layers of technology, the Web enabled a Google or an Amazon, the Cloud enabled AWS or Salesforce, this new layer enables companies to pursue that next layer of capabilities out there to build that sort of intelligent societal infrastructure of the 2020s which will be vastly different than where we are today. >> Will the adoption of the Matrix, in your opinion, occur faster because essentially it's built on the Internet and we have the Internet, i.e. faster than say the Internet or maybe some other major innovations, or is it going to take time for a lot of reasons? >> I think the speed is actually a really interesting question because the technology of the 2020s are extremely powerful, but most of them are not going to be immediate hits. And if you look back, say, to search, when search came out it was very powerful and you could scale it massively quickly. You look at machine learning, you look at blockchains, you look at virtual realities, you look at algorithms, speech and these areas, they're tremendously powerful. But there's no scenario where those things happen overnight. And so we do not see an accelerating pace of change. In fact it might be people often overestimate the speed of change in our business and consistently do that. But what we see is a sort of fundamental transformation over time, and that's why we put a lot of emphasis on the 2020s because we do not see two years from now this stuff all being in place. >> And you have some good examples in the book going back to the early days of even telephony. So it's worth checking that out. I want to talk about, bring it back to data, Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Facebook, top five companies, public companies in terms of market cap. Actually it's not true after the Facebook fake news thing. I mean Berkshire Hathaway is slightly past Facebook. >> It'll be back (laughs). But I agree, it'll be back, but the key point there is these companies are different, they've got data at their core. When you compare that to other companies even financial services industry companies that are really data companies but the data's very bespoken, it's in silos. Can those companies, those incumbent companies, can they close that gap? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, we do a lot of work in the area of machine intelligence, artificial, whatever you want to call it. And one of the things you see immediately is this ridiculously large gap between what these leading companies do versus most traditional firms because of the talent, the data, the business model, all the things they have. So you have this widening gap there. And so the big question is is that going to widen or is it going to continue, will it narrow? And I think that the scenario for narrowing it I think is a fairly good one. And the message we say to a lot of our clients is that you will wind up buying a lot more machine intelligence than you will build because these companies will bring it to you. Machine intelligence will be in AWS. It'll be in Azure. It'll be in Salesforce. It'll be in your devices. It'll be in your user interfaces. It'll be in the speech systems. So the supply-side innovations that are happening in the giants will be sold to the incumbents, and therefore there will be a natural improvement in today's situation where a lot of incumbents are sort of basically trying to build their own stuff internally, and they're having some successes and some not. But that's a harder challenge. But the supply side will bring intelligence to the market in a quite powerful way and fairly soon. >> Won't those incumbents, though, have to sort of reorganize in a way around those new innovations given that they've got processes and procedures that are so fossilized with their existing businesses? >> Absolutely, and the word digital transformation is thrown around everywhere. But if it means anything it is having an organization that is aligned with the way technology works. And a good example of that is when you use Netflix today there's no separate sales experience, market experience, customer service, it's just one system and you have one team that builds those systems. In a typical corporation of course you have the sales organization and the marketing organization and the IT organization and the customer service organization. And those silos is not the way to build these systems. So the message we send to our clients if you really want to transform yourself you have to have more of this team approach that is more like the way the tech players do it. And that these traditional boundaries essentially go away when you go in the digital world where the customer experience is all those things at the same time. >> So if I'm hearing you correctly it's sort of a natural progression of how they're going to be doing business and the services that they're going to be procuring, but there's probably other approaches. Maybe it's force, but you're seeing maybe M&A or you're seeing joint ventures. Do you see those things as accelerating or precipitating the transformation or do you think it's futile and it really has to be led from the top and at the core? >> It's one of the toughest issues out there. And the reason people talk about transformation is because they see the need. But the difficulty is enormous. Most companies would say this is a three- or four-year process to make significant change, and this in a marketplace that changes every few months. So incumbent firms, they see where they want to go and it's very hard, and this is why this whole thing of getting digital right is so important, that people need to commit to significant change programs, and we're seeing it. And my parent company, DXC, we do a lot of this with clients and they want to embark on this program and they need people who can help them do it. And so leading a transformation agenda in most firms is really what digital leadership is these days and who's capable of doing that which requires tremendous skills in soft skills and hard skills to do right. >> Let's talk about industries and industry disruption. When you looked at the early disrupted industries whether it was publishing, advertising, music, one maybe had the tendency to think it was a bits versus atoms thing, but you point out in the book it's really not the case because you look at taxis, you look at hotels. Those are physical businesses and they've been disrupted quite substantially. Maybe you could give us some thoughts and insight there, particularly with regard to things like health care, financial services which haven't been disrupted. >> And there's a huge part of the work that I've been doing for years. And as you say, if you look at the industries that actually have been disrupted, they're all relatively low-security, low-risk businesses, music, advertising, taxis, retail. All these businesses have had tremendous changes. But the ones that haven't are all the ones where the stakes are higher, banking, insurance, health care, aerospace, defense. They've been hardly disrupted at all. And so you have this split between the low-risk industries that have changed and the high-risk ones that haven't. But what's interesting to me about that is that these technologies of the 2020s are aimed almost directly at those high-risk industries. So machine intelligence is aimed directly at health care and autonomous systems is aimed directly at defense and blockchains are aimed directly at banking and insurance. And so the technologies of the past if you look at Internet and the Web and the Cloud eras, they were not aimed at these industries. But today's are, so you now have at least a highly plausible scenario where those industries might change too. >> When to talk to companies in those industries that haven't been disrupted do you get a sense of complacency that ah well, we haven't been disrupted, We're going to wait and see, or do you see a sense of urgency? >> No, complacency is baked in for years of people saying, "We've heard all this before. "We're doing just fine. "Maybe it's their industry but not ours." >> Dave: You don't buy it. >> Or the main one is, "I'll be (laughing) retired "before any of this stuff matters for the senior execs." And the thing about all four of those is they're probably true. They have heard all this before because there was a lot of excessive hype. Many of them are doing just fine. Well the one about the other industries is a wrong one, but and many of them will be retired before the things really bite if executive's in their late in their career. So the inertia and the complacency is an enormous issue in most traditional companies. >> So let's do a little lightning round if we can. Oh, actually I just want to make a point. In the book you lay out disruption scenarios for each industry which is really worthwhile. We don't have time to go through that here, but let's do a little lightning round here, some of the questions that you ask that I'd love to get your opinion on of which of course there are no right answers but we can maybe frame it. Let's start with retail. Do you think large retail stores are going to disappear? >> Well the first I say is that disruption is never total. There are still bookstores, there are still newspapers, there are still vinyl records. >> Dave: Mainframes, saving IBM. >> (laughing) Indeed, indeed, but real disruption means that the center of gravity is just totally moved on. And when you look at retail from that point of view, absolutely. And will large ones totally disappear? No, but Wal-Mart is teetering. If you go into a large, Best Buy, a company that strong hero locally, you go into there, there's hardly anybody in there. And so those stores are in tremendous trouble. The grocery stores, the clothing stores, they'll have probably a better future, but by and large they will shrink, and the nature of malls will change quite substantially going forward. People are going to have to find other uses for those spaces, and that's actually going on right now. >> It's funny, it is, and certainly some of the more remote malls you find that they're waning. But then some of the higher-end malls, they seem, you can't find a parking space. What's your sense of that, that that's still inevitable or it's because it's more clothing or maybe jewelry? >> And there's some parts of America that have a lot of money, and therefore they fill up malls. But I think if you look at what's going on in the malls, though, they're becoming more like indoor cities full of restaurants and health clubs and movie theaters and sometimes even college courses and health care centers, daycare centers, air conditioning. Think of them as an indoor environment where you might have the traditional anchor stores but they're less necessary over time. Quite a bit less necessary. >> You mentioned college courses. Education's something we haven't talked about which is again ripe for disruption. Machines, will they make better diagnoses than doctors? >> Yeah, you see this already in image processing, anything that has to do with an image, X-rays and mammograms, cancers, anything, tissues. The machine learning progress there has been tremendous and to the point where schools now should be seriously thinking about how many radiologists do they really want to train because those people are not going to be needed as much. However they're still part of the system. They approve things, but the work itself is increasingly done by machines. And it means increasingly that it's not just done by machine, it's done by one machine somewhere else rather than every hospital setting up its own operations to do this stuff. And health care costs are crazy high in every country in the world, especially here in America. But if you're ever going to crack those costs you have to get some sort of scale, and these machine learning-based systems are the way to do it. And so it is to me not just a question of should this happen, it's that this is so what needs to happen. It's really the only sort of economic path that might work. >> You make the point that health care in particular is really ripe for disruption of all industries. The next one's really interesting to me. You talked about blockchain being sort of aimed at banking and financial services and as an industry that has not really yet been disrupted. But do you think banks will lose control of the payment systems? >> Banks have been incredibly good at keeping control through cash and paper checks and credit cards and ATM machines. They've been really good about that and perhaps they will ride this one too. But you can see countries are clearly going to, they're getting rid of cash. They're going to digital currencies. There's the need to be able to send money around as simply as we send emails around, and the banking industry is not really supporting (laughing) those changes right now. So they are at risk, but they are very good at co-opting stuff, and I wouldn't count them out. >> And the government really wants to get rid of paper money. You've made that point, and the government and the financial services-- >> Work together, and yeah. >> They always work together, they have a lot to lose. >> Yeah, and way back when Satoshi Nakamoto, whoever he or she is or it, they, whatever it is, said that bitcoin would either be very, very big or it would vanish altogether. And I think that statement is still true, and we're still in that middle world. But if bitcoin vanishes, something doing a similar thing will emerge because the concepts and the capabilities there are really what people want. >> Yeah, the killer app for blockchain is for right now it's money. (laughing) >> Yeah, it's speculation, (laughing) I mean it's, (laughing) and no one uses it to buy anything. (Dave laughing) That was the original bitcoin vision of using it to go buy pizzas and coffees. It's become gold, it's digital gold. I mean it's all it is. >> The value store... >> It's digital gold that is very good in the dark Web. >> And if anybody does transact in bitcoin they immediately convert it to fiat currency. (laughing) >> Perhaps someday we'll learn that the Russians actually built bitcoin (Dave laughing) and it's Putin's in control. (David and Dave laughing) Stranger things have happened. >> It's possible. >> Hey, why keep it anonymous? >> They are the masters of the dark Web. (Dave laughing) >> Could be Russians, could be a woman. >> David: Right, right, nobody has any idea. >> Robotic process automation is really interesting with software robots, robots. Do you see that reversing sort of offshoring, offshore manufacturing and other services? >> Not really, I think in general people looked at robotics, they looked at 3D printing and said, "Maybe we can bring all this stuff back home." But the reality is that China uses robots and 3D printing too and they're really good at it. If anything's going to bring manufacturing back home it's much more political pressures, trade strategies, and all the stuff you see going on right now because we do have crazy imbalances in the world that probably will have to change. And as Ben Stein the economist once said, "Well if something can't go on forever, it won't." And I think there will be some reversals, but I think they'll be less about technology than they will be about political pressures and trade agreements and those sort of changes. >> Because the technology's widely accessible. So how far do you think we can take machine intelligence and how far should we take machine intelligence? >> Well I make a distinction right now that I think machine intelligence for particular purposes is tremendous if you want to recognize faces or eventually talk to something or have it read something or recognize an activity or read images and do all the things it's doing, it's very good. When they talk about a more general-wise machine intelligence it's actually really poor. But to me that's not that important. And one way we look at machine intelligence, it's almost like the app industry. There'll be an app for that, there'll be a machine learning algorithm for almost every little thing that we do that involves data. And those areas will thrive mightily. And then sort of the bottom line we try to at that as who's got the best data? Facebook is good at facial recognitions because it's got the faces, and Google's good at language translation because it has the books and language pairs better than anybody else. And so if you follow the data and where there's good data machine learning will thrive. And where there isn't it won't. >> The book is called Seeing Digital: A Visual Guide to the Industries, Organizations, and Careers of the 2020s, and part of that visual guide is every single page actually has a graphic. So really a new concept that you've... >> Yeah, and thanks for bringing that in. And the reason the book is called Seeing Digital is that the book itself is a visual book, that every page has a graphic, an image, a picture, and explains itself below. And just in our own work with our own clients people tell us it's just a more impactful way of reading. So it's a different format. It's great in the ebook format because you can use colors, you can do lots of things that the printed world doesn't do so well. And so we tried to take advantage of modern technologies to bring a different sort of book to the market. >> That's great. So Google it and you'll find it easily. Dave, again, congratulations. Thanks so much for coming on theCube. >> David: Thank you, a pleasure. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. We'll see you next time. (bright music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> We are life back here in Las Vegas at the Sands Expo as we continue our coverage here on theCUBE of re:Invent, AWS here on the fourth day of what has been a very successful show. I still hear a lot of buzz, a lot of activity on the show floor. It certainly indicative of what happened here in terms of bringing this community together in a very positive way. I'm with Justin Warren, I'm John Walls. We go from Justin to Dustin, Dustin Kirkland, who is the vice president of product development for Ubuntu on the Canonical. It's good to see you again. >> Likewise, John. >> I should let the two of you probably chat about Australia. We heard these great diving stories about your adventures, your home, your native country. >> Yep. >> Maybe afterwards will get a little photos, travel thing going on. >> Yeah that's right. (laughing) >> All right, 17 years you have been diving. Were going to have to get into that a little bit later on. First off, let's talk about Ubuntu, and maybe the footprint within AWS. Maybe not only what brings you here, but what gets you there? What are you doing there? >> First of all, this is a fantastic conference. Hundreds of these organizations here are involved in Ubuntu, using Ubuntu in AWS and taking advantage of open source, using it for lots of scale out services. To date this year in 2017, over 125 million instances of Ubuntu have launched in AWS alone just this year, and the year is not even over yet. We see anything from media entertainment. Netflix is here. I spent some time with them. One of Netflix's performance engineers gave a talk yesterday about how Netflix tunes their Ubuntu instances in Amazon to the tune of 100,000 instances of Ubuntu running in Amazon to deliver the Netflix experience that I'm sure all of us have. >> John: 100,000? >> Yeah. >> That's amazing. >> It's crazy, yeah. >> I'm a big fan of Ubuntu because I am a mad person. I've been running it as my primary desktop for something like 10 years. >> All right! >> I run it on a laptop. >> Okay. >> I love it, it's great. >> Good. >> People use Ubuntu all the time but it's like it just became the de facto, it seems like overnight of pretty much, hey, if you want to run Linux in cloud, you just spin up in Ubuntu. Just run it up, so what is it about Ubuntu itself, where are you taking the product for people who are using it in cloud? We are hearing a lot about all these different services, and we are hearing about serverless, so how does Ubuntu fit into that AWS world? >> That's a great question. First of all, it's not overnight. We have been doing this since 2004, so we are going on 14 years of building the thing that is Ubuntu. We brought Ubuntu into Amazon in about 2008, which is right when I got involved at Canonical. I was working on Ubuntu before that, but working for Canonical, and that was relatively early in the entire Amazon adventure. You said Ubuntu on the desktop. That's certainly where Ubuntu got its start, but it was Amazon that really busted Ubuntu out into the server space, and so now as you said, if you are starting a new company or a new technology, you almost by default start on Ubuntu. Now where are we taking that? Here we are talking about cloud, but the other half of cloud is the edge. The edge being embedded devices, embedded IOT connected devices. The thing about every IOT device, the I in IOT is Internet. The connected part of a connected device means it has to be connected to something, and what is going to be connected to? The cloud. Every smart autonomous driving vehicle, every oil rig out in West Texas, every airplane, every boat, every ship, every place where you are going to find compute in these next couple of years as we move into the 5G revolution, are connected to services on the backend, the majority of those hosted in Amazon, and the majority of those running Ubuntu. >> When you talk about IOT though, what kind of challenges that that bring into your world? Because you are talking about this, I mean, I can't even think about the order of growth. >> Yeah, billions, literally billions. >> It's just massive connectivity, and in a mobile environment, throw that on top of that, so what does that do for you then in terms of what you are looking at down the road and the kind of capabilities that you have got to build in? >> Security, I mean it starts with security. When we think about devices in our homes accompanying our kids to school, devices that are inside of buses and hospitals, it's all about security, and security is first and foremost. We put a lot of effort into securing Ubuntu. We've created new features as part of where we are taking Ubuntu. Many of the new features we created around Ubuntu are about updates, security updates, being able to make those updates active without rebooting the system, so zero downtime kernel updates is something we call a live patch service which we deliver in Amazon for Ubuntu Amazon users. Extended security maintenance. Security for Ubuntu after end-of-life, say you said you've been using Ubuntu for a long time. Each Ubuntu release has basically a five year lifecycle but some enterprises actually need to run Ubuntu for much longer than five years, and for those enterprises, we provide security updates after the end of life, after that five-year end-of-life, and in many cases, that helps them bridge that gap until the next release of Ubuntu. We've also worked with IBM and the US government to provide FIPS certified cryptography for Ubuntu also available in Amazon, so the Department of Defense contractors, many federal contractors are required to use FIPS bits, and this actually allows them to bring their Ubuntu usage into compliance with what's required for government regulation. >> I'm so glad that you went from IOT to security in, like, a nanosecond. That was going to be my next question. >> Well that is the only answer to that. It's the only right answer to that question in my mind. >> Not enough companies put that much focus on security and you follow it up with specific concrete examples of things that are going to work. The live kernel patching without rebooting things so that you can have the-- I mean, services in the cloud, it has to be always on. You can't take a maintenance window when something is down four hours or a weekend. That's just not acceptable in the cloud world anymore. >> Especially in the retail season. We are just now getting into the retail-- you know, Black Friday was last week, Cyber Monday this week, and the roll up all the way to Christmas, Canonical works with quite a bit with the largest retailers in the world, Walmart, Best Buy, other ones like that, and downtime is just not acceptable. At the same time, security is of the utmost importance. When you are taking people's credit cards, you are placing large amounts of money on the line every time these transactions take place. Security has to be utmost, and being able to do that without impacting the downtime. Downtime is seriously hundreds of thousands of dollars per second on some of these sites during the major holiday rush. >> You just mentioned some of the big names you're working with, so what kind of assurance can you give them that you can sleep with both eyes closed? You don't have to keep that one eye open. Don't worry, if there is an incident of some kind, we are going to take care of it. If you have a problem, rest assured, we are going to be there because, as you pointed out, with the volume involved and the issues of security infiltrations being what they are today, it's hard to rest. >> Right, the return on value, the return on investment of the live patch is easily apparent. Any time someone does the math and realizes, "Let's actually look at how much it costs us "to reboot a data center, "or how much it costs us to wake up the dev ops team "on a Saturday and have them work through a weekend "to roll out this update," whereas with the live patch, at least the patch is applied in milliseconds without downtime, and then we get back on Monday and we rollout a comprehensive plan as to what do we actually need to do about this going forward? That is for the kernel side of things. The other half of it is the user space side of Ubuntu. In the user space side of Ubuntu, we continue to make Ubuntu smaller, smaller and smaller. That might be one of the reasons you are attracted to Ubuntu on your laptop early on is because we really did a good job of making a Linux that was consumable, usable, but also very small and secure. We've actually taken that same approach in the cloud where we continue to minimize the footprint of Ubuntu. That has a security impact in that if you simply leave software out of the default image you are not vulnerable to problems in that software, so we've heard that quite a bit around the container space, the work we do in the container space. We will be in Austin next week for CUBE Con talking about containers. I will save the container talk for next week, but minimizing Ubuntu is an important of that security story as well. >> All right, just reducing that attack surface is fabulous. It also means that when you are actually doing this patching, it's less things to patch, there are less opportunities for downtime, there are less things that can go wrong and cause outages in the rest of the place. Simple is better. >> Dustin : That's right, that's exactly right. >> What else are you doing? We've talked about security a lot here. What are some of the other things that you are doing around supporting the services that we are hearing here at AWS? We've heard a lot about things like serverless. We've heard a lot about high performance computing. We've had guests here on theCUBE talking about what they are doing around data analytics and machine learning, so maybe you could give us a little bit of color around that. >> Let's start with that last point, machine learning and data analytics. We work very closely with both Amazon and Nvidia to enable the GPGPUs, the general-purpose graphics processing units that Nvidia produces which go into servers and Amazon exposes in the some of the largest machine learning type instances. Those instances powered by Ubuntu are working directly with that GPU out of the box by default, and that's something that we've worked very hard on and closely with both Amazon and Nvidia to make sure the Ubuntu experience when using the graphics accelerated instance types just work, and just work out of the box. Those are important for the machine learning and the data analytics because many of those algorithms take advantage of CUDA. CUDA is a set of libraries that allows developers to write applications that scale very, very wide across the CUDA cores, so a given Nvidia GPU may have several thousand Nvidia CUDA cores. Each of those are running little process bits and then the answers are summed up, basically, at the end. That is at the heart of everything that's happening in the AI space, and that I will tie that back to our IOT space in that for those connected devices where memory discs, CPU, power are very constrained, part of the important part of that connection is that they are talking to a cloud that has essentially infinite resources, infinite data at its disposal, enough memory to load those entire data sets and crunch those. The fastest CPUs and the fastest GPUs that can crunch that data, so to really take that and make that real, that's exactly what's powering every autonomous vehicle in the world, essentially, is a little unit inside of the car, a majority of those autonomous vehicles are running Ubuntu on the auto driving unit. Tesla, Google, Uber, all running Ubuntu inside of that car. Every one of those cars are talking to a cloud. Some clouds are Amazon, other, in Google's case, certainly the Google cloud, but they are talking to GPU Nvidia powered AI instances that are crunching all the data that these Tesla cars and GM, and Ford cars are sending to the cloud and constantly making the inference engine better. What gets downloaded to the car is an updated inference engine. That inference engine comes down to the car, and that's how that car decides is it safe to change lanes right now or not? That answer has to be determined inside of the car, not in the cloud, but you can understand why data training and modeling in the cloud is powerful, far more powerful than what can happen inside of a little CPU in a the car. >> John: Let's just keep it on the right side of the road. Can we do that? (laughing) >> Well, you need to talk to this gentleman about that. >> Yeah, I drive on the left side. (laughing) >> Or the left side of the road. >> Don't cross the streams. >> How about the correct side of the road? >> Don't cross the streams. >> Dustin thanks for the time. >> Thank you, John. >> Always good seeing you. >> Likewise. >> And we'll see you next week as well. Down in your hometown, a little barbecue in Austin. >> That sounds good. >> All right, back with more here at re:Invent. We are live in Las Vegas back with more on theCUBE in just a bit.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering the AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host, Keith Townsend, and this is one of the interviews we've been really excited. Of course, we've got about 60 interviews. We love all of them. Lots of good excitement. Lots going on at this ecosystem. Over 43 thousand in attendance here in Las Vegas, but happy to welcome back to the program, Chris Wolf, who's the Vice President and CTO of Global Field and Industry at VMware. Chris, great to see you. >> Thanks Stu, thanks Keith. Great to see you guys. >> So for the year, the whole VMware on AWS has been a hot buzz discussion. We've all been arguing internally and on theCUBE about you know, partnering and how does that work and who gets the most benefit out of it, but let's start, Chris I'd love to hear your viewpoint, you know. You talk to a lot of customers. I've talked to some customers that are really excited about it, especially at VMWorld, that were there testing it and doing it. Give us the customer viewpoint. What's really exciting them? What's interesting them? And I know there's a lot of new news we're wanna gonna get into. >> Yeah, you know, there's so much that I think is exciting to customers because you know, they're struggling with being more agile, being more software defined, being able to have more flexibility in their environments. And to be able to leverage VMware Cloud on AWS allows them to go through data center consolidation easier. It allows them to get applications to the Cloud to take advantage of Cloud services. One of the things people, I think kind of falls between the cracks in VMware Cloud on AWS is the fact that if I want to modernize an application or a traditional application, refactoring an application is enormously expensive. It's very hard to do. It's very time consuming. If I can start to move an application into the VMware Cloud on AWS and then start to integrate that with other native AWS services, I get the benefit of modernizing that application without having to touch any of the application code, which is a huge benefit to customers. >> Yeah, we've spent the last couple of years at this show, which well, do I lift and shift? Do I just re-platform it? Do I refactor it? Do I totally rewrite it? You know, the number of customers that I've talked to at this show, their advice that they give to their peers is like well, go faster. And how do we go faster? Do I just take my VMware stuff that I was doing in my own data center, stick it in VMware on AWS, start using all the cool stuff. Is that kind of the path that you see? >> That's part of it. You know, I think there's a couple threads here. There's the notion that you know, I wanna go faster, but to go faster, I have to slay some old demons in IT. Where I have to change my mindset. You know, I can't say I want to be more software defined and more agile and then have specific hardware requirements in my architecture. Of course, that's not for all applications, but that's part of that shift in mindset is how can I go faster? And if it's harder to transform some of my data centers, if I can get into that operational model by getting on Amazon quicker, then that's good for my business. >> Yeah, let me just poke on one more thing on that and I know Keith wants to jump in here, but one of the great things, I think back to 15 years ago. It was like, you know my Windows operating system going end to life. I'm gonna stick it in VM and keep it there forever. But, boy that application was all the technical data. My users hated it and everything like that. How does VMware go from I managed what you had to enabling your future? >> The thing that we're really focused on here in terms of enabling the future, when you think about programmatic compute and networking and storage and security, all applications need them. I can abstract all that away with a Lambda function or whatever, but at the end of the day, somebody has to do it and that part of the fabric becomes really important for things like having a security auto-trell. The other thread there is where VMware's strategic to customers is that they say, "You know I might wanna start this in the Cloud, "but I wanna maintain full control "of all of the intellectual property, "so I wanna use Kubernetes, I wanna use containers, "I wanna use a variety of open source projects. "I wanna use their native API's for my software engineers, "but I wanna have flexibility to build these applications "without pre-destining their future." Maybe it runs in a Cloud today, maybe it runs in a data center tomorrow, maybe it runs out at the edge. Maybe I do an acquisition and it has to run in that facility. The bottom line is, I don't always know what the future holds for my apps. And for the aspect of the apps that are core to your business, there's a lot value in running them on VMware because we can allow you to maintain that flexibility and independence, just like we've done way back in the past with your traditional enterprise applications. >> So Chris, that's a great setup for the next set of questions, which is, VMware has been known to move at the speed of the CIO. We're at AWS re:Invent. These folks move much faster than the speed of the CIO. The question is around, what's VMware's focus? You know, there's VMware Cloud on AWS, there's PKS, there's VIG. You guys came out with Openstack, VMware integrated Openstack 4.0, and then even VMware Cloud on AWS, the promised innovation three and a half months after the release. Iteration on that. That's much faster than what the CIO used to have. How are those conversations balanced between the CIO and the new business user here at AWS? >> Yeah, way to sugarcoat Keith. That's a good question. Look at CIOs today. There's very innovative CIOs. We had the NFL CIO up on stage in the morning Keynote, right? And I thought that was highly dynamic, really talking about how you have to transform business. What we're really focused on in terms of helping customers is making sure that that fabric that runs their business applications is just as fluid and dynamic as their businesses. The security has to be as fluid and dynamic or more dynamic than the threats that you face. So, these are areas that we're focused on, but your point is: how can VMware continue to deliver quick innovation? I think VMware integrated Openstack actually is an example of VMware integration or innovation, so I'm glad you brought it up. We don't talk about Openstack that much now, but VMware was the very first Openstack distro-vendor to make upgrades of Openstack versions they feature as software. Where our competitors in that space were making it a professional services engagement. You look at us, what we've done in terms of supporting containers natively on vSphere. We announced PKS and we were very quick to embrace Kubernetes. We announced Greengrass preview that we're bringing to market as well on vSphere. So, you're absolutely right to give us the feedback that in the past, you could say Vmware was a bit conservative of a company. We were slow and deliberate in some of our innovations. They were important and we were deliberate because we had a reputation to uphold for product quality. That's what our customers expect, but at the same time, it's very good feedback to say that we have to work quicker, and that's the model that we're in. I think that the AWS partnership for Vmware is one example of how we've had a couple of companies learning from each other in terms of AWS and interacting with the enterprise and VMware in terms of innovating a Cloud space, and you're staring to see the benefits and the fruits of that labor now. >> So, ironically I ran into the VMUG president, Ben Clayton doing a show floor. It's amazing to see the crossover between the VMware community and the AWS community. I think VMware Cloud on AWS has been a boom, a realizing that Cloud is coming into the enterprise in a great way. Let's talk about the community and the users. How do you help move that traditional community of, I think VMUG is 200,000 users. How do you help move that membership forward to this new speed of IT? >> It's a terrific question. There's definitely some challenges with getting folks. Part of it is IT folks, we're builders at heart. We love building everything. We love the pieces and parts. We can understand how they matter, but even if they matter like this much, it doesn't necessarily mean that I should build a snowflake for my business because some of the problems that VMware solves, you could say that every business in the world has to solve the same problems. So why focus on some of those smaller nuisances? What we've been really after is providing much more content into the VMUG communities around transformation, around how more modular IT architectures are important. Even beyond the VMUG community, if you think about some traditional VMware channel partners, where their core focus was on some very tightly integrated hardware-based solutions. Those partners, the more innovative ones, are now building hybrid applications across VMware and AWS components and modernizing enterprises that way. We're trying to encourage our VMUG community to do the same thing. I've had talks with VMUG events this year talking to them about Edge Compute and how VMware is investing there and what R&D looks like. Part of this is, I think all of us in IT, we have to have that point in time where we say "I have to let go, "I know the market's shifting, "I know I have to do something different." If I didn't let go in my past, I would still be known for being a Certified Novell Engineer, right? Times change and we have to change too, so it's really important to be prescriptive and give our community all the tools they need to evolve with us. >> Chris, you mention the Greengrass thing that you have in preview for a bit. I want you talk about that a little bit and when I heard Andy Jassy this morning, he talked about the continuum. Instances, which underneath, that's virtualization from VMware. There's containers and there's serverless. Andy says if he was to build IWBS today, he'd build it all serverless. We know it's not a zero sum game and nothing changes overnight, but virtualization is not decimated by containers overnight and containers doesn't go away now that serverless comes out. I want you to talk about the Greengrass and how that spectrum fits into the customers you're talked to in the VMware journey. >> I think it's really, really exciting and certainly I'm a huge proponent of serverless. My 14 year old son has an Echo Dot in his bedroom and he likes to program it to do really fun things. My favorite example is he had it talking about who the ugliest person in the world is and wanted Alexa to name his sister. There's a part of me that's like "No don't do that, son" but then the other part's like "I'm so proud of you." >> That's awesome. But if we step back, there's this huge press to start doing more in terms of getting the analytics and the intelligence to either where the data's being created or where the data's being consumed. We've had a lot of customers come to us jointly, saying "Look, I can't move the data to the Cloud "to do deep analytics or machine learning. "It defies the laws of physics "or the networking costs are just too much. "Or there's latency considerations. "I need a faster transaction execution time." We have a customer, a joint customer, where they're monitoring the heat of the brake pad on a train and they're trying to understand in real time, how that impacts the train's maintenance schedule and when they should take it out of service. They need to get the intelligence of the Cloud closer to where these things are occurring. Let's bring that all back to Greengrass on vSphere. You heard an announcement of machine learning on Greengrass today. To do machine learning, I need some considerable compute horsepower to really make it effective. Most of our customers already have a lot of that horsepower already out at the edge. One of our customers has six to 10 servers. This is very common of a lot of retail organizations, six to 10 servers per stores times 10,000 stores. They're trying to do more with IOT and more analytics. They want to leverage the investments that they already have an infrastructure. The other part that's strategically important to VMware is this: we want to have Cloud services be able to execute where the data's being created and that's a natural use case for virtualization. Then second, we want to have a platform that can allow the most popular opensource technologies to also run there to give customers all of that choice. So for us, it's all about promoting heterogeneity at the edge. We see those Cloud services as really that new generation of application platforms that customers, they don't want some artificial constraint of a Cloud data center to say "this is where it has to run." I want it to run wherever the business requirements say it needs to run and that's what's important and that's what we're doing with this announcement. >> Chris, we talk to a lot of CTOs, senior architects, CIOs and even looking at VMware, trust that part of it has been very stable in the environment for years, the product selection can be overwhelming. CIOs, CTOs need to focus their investment and their strategies in a certain area. Conversations, where are you telling CTOs, CIOs to focus their investment? >> It's a really good question. You definitely have to have a focus area and for us, it's about a platform for rapid agility and innovation. That's really key. We don't know what the future's gonna be. We can guess and you are both two very visionary guys and you have a general idea of what's gonna happen over the next 12, 18 months, but there's things that are just unexpected, especially in the business context. We can understand technology, but business dynamics change very quickly. Helping CTOs and CIOs understand how to build a fabric that can make them more agile and flexible is really key. That's one. So, greater automation, greater efficiencies, rapid innovation, but even more importantly for a lot that's really top of mind is security. Giving them a way to do rapid recovery, being able to start to segment some of their resources, being able to dynamically offer and adjust security and understand threats in real time and combat them in real time is key. The traditional model of security is: I have a dynamic threat so I'm gonna have increased layers of static security to combat it and I'll just add more layers. Doesn't work. We've had customers have massive outages that we've worked with because they've had ransomware attacks and things like that, so they want to be more agile and more dynamic. Their VMware environments, they've been able to get up very quickly, but these lessons are teaching organizations that they have to think differently. So really, that security and agility I see is really top of line for a lot of folks. >> Chris, I've seen lots of traffic at the VMware booth, talked to a lot of customers that are interested. The elephant in the room when I talk to all of them is cost. We've looked at Big Bear Metal, Amazon released that instance. That's a big hunking instance, a lot of memory, a lot of networking. I've talked to a couple customers that said, "I did the analysis on VMware over AWS "versus heck, just buying a rack "and stick it in my environment." You get a significant difference in there. One customer is like "Hey, it was 3x the cost "for me to just buy it and do it myself, "and I didn't feel I was gonna get any "operational efficiencies even doing it "'cause I know VMware and I know how to run it." What do you say to those customers? What are they missing? I'd love any misconceptions that you're hearing out there. >> I'll give ya an example. Let's use the cost analogy. My daughter wants a new radio for Christmas. I can go to Best Buy and buy a really nice stereo, but that's actually 3x the cost of me buying the circuit board kit, say on Amazon, and soldering in the components myself. When you think about that in a practical, real world example, we used to buy motherboards and build PCs and servers back in the day. We don't even think about doing it anymore and even if I could save 25 dollars doing it, I still wouldn't do it because there's more important things I can be doing with my time to differentiate my business. Look, we are-- >> I wanna poke at that. Because you're partners at Delium Sig and I buy one of the VX whatever family from their team. It's pretty easy to ploy, I do that. I understand how to do VMware. It's not gonna take me months to deploy. I know how to a VMware environment and it's that type of configuration. They're saying it's not building versus buying and I understand there's a spectrum there, but just the raw VMware and AWS. They said "I'm gonna get two bills. "I'm gonna get one from VMware and one from Amazon" and the price of it does seem pretty massive compared to what they were doing. So, are they wrong about that? >> I'm really surprised at that. We're not hearing that from our customers We're seeing them have very solid in terms of cost saving, in terms of running on AWS because unlike a traditional Cloud environment, I can oversubscribe physical hosts, I can run more workloads because it is native VMware. You're also getting additional benefits. I'm getting V-SAN storage, I'm getting NSX for networking and security. To say I'm just gonna take vSphere and compare, I would say that that's probably not the closest comparison. There's other aspects that we're providing that operate in a Cloud environment. And, listen, we had this before. Five years ago, people were saying, "Well, Cloud's too expensive so I'm gonna stay on premises." We don't even think that way anymore. There's other benefits that you're getting in the Cloud model that you have to weigh into consideration and we've seen VMware Cloud on AWS is as price competitive as a lot of the native public Cloud services are without all the added benefits of networking and security and management and other things that we throw in. >> Chris, wanna give you the final word. What's exciting you these days? You used to sit on kind of this side of the table, look at the environment. You're deep in some of the emerging pieces. What's getting you excited? I'd love to hear any final insights on partnering between VMware and Amazon, which a lot of us on the outside are like cats and dogs living together. >> Okay, let's hit a couple of them. First, certainly for me, the innovation that's occurring at the edge, I think is extremely exciting. Driving new use cases around augmented reality, more machine learning. How we're looking in terms of moving services to where data's being generated instead of moving the data, which is always problematic. That's a new wave of innovation that I think is really exciting. So that's the certainly the area I'd say that's most exciting for me, is how we can innovate there. It's also around hybrid applications. It's the integration of things like Lambda functions in a traditional file system. I was with a major global financial services organization yesterday and we were not talking about traditional Lambda function use cases. We were talking about integrating Lambda with database and file system events and VM's running on vSphere. So, there's this whole new way to modernize applications that we're just at the cusp of. That pace of innovation's happening faster and faster. I'll say this about Amazon: we are really committed to working together and I think what you're seeing in the industry in general, it's not just VMware with AWS, but it's with our partners in the container spaces. An example is containers as a service and platform as a service, is we're being very pragmatic about focusing on what we're really, really good at. And there's areas where VMware is fantastic at it, in terms of reliability and heterogeneity at the edge and there's natural synergies where we can work together with Amazon web services. In my opinion, they've been a fantastic partner. All of the work that we've done with the Greengrass team and the IOT team, in terms of bringing Greengrass to market on vSphere, has been an enormously positive experience. We share lessons learned, we share engineering, work together. It's extremely collaborative because just like all of our technology partners, there's always areas where we're going to compete a little bit and there can be some overlap, but there's a lot more areas where we get to work together and that's what we're really focused on with VMware and AWS. >> Well, Chris, I know Keith and I always appreciate your perspectives, the VMware community engagement, know you're always open to having some good, real discussions here, so really appreciate you coming sharing all our viewpoints. Congratulations on all the progress here. We're certainly excited to see where it goes. >> I appreciate the opportunity. >> Alright, for Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here. 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