(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE." We've got great two remote guests coming into our Palo Alto Studios, some tech athletes, as we say, people that've been in the trenches, years of experience, Lena Smart, CISO at MongoDB, Cube alumni, and Tara Hernandez, VP of Developer Productivity at MongoDB as well. Thanks for coming in to this program and supporting our efforts today. Thanks so much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, everyone talk about the journey in tech, where it all started. Before we get there, talk about what you guys are doing at MongoDB specifically. MongoDB is kind of gone the next level as a platform. You have your own ecosystem, lot of developers, very technical crowd, but it's changing the business transformation. What do you guys do at Mongo? We'll start with you, Lena. >> So I'm the CISO, so all security goes through me. I like to say, well, I don't like to say, I'm described as the ones throat to choke. So anything to do with security basically starts and ends with me. We do have a fantastic Cloud engineering security team and a product security team, and they don't report directly to me, but obviously we have very close relationships. I like to keep that kind of church and state separate and I know I've spoken about that before. And we just recently set up a physical security team with an amazing gentleman who left the FBI and he came to join us after 26 years for the agency. So, really starting to look at the physical aspects of what we offer as well. >> I interviewed a CISO the other day and she said, "Every day is day zero for me." Kind of goofing on the Amazon Day one thing, but Tara, go ahead. Tara, go ahead. What's your role there, developer productivity? What are you focusing on? >> Sure. Developer productivity is kind of the latest description for things that we've described over the years as, you know, DevOps oriented engineering or platform engineering or build and release engineering development infrastructure. It's all part and parcel, which is how do we actually get our code from developer to customer, you know, and all the mechanics that go into that. It's been something I discovered from my first job way back in the early '90s at Borland. And the art has just evolved enormously ever since, so. >> Yeah, this is a very great conversation both of you guys, right in the middle of all the action and data infrastructures changing, exploding, and involving big time AI and data tsunami and security never stops. Well, let's get into, we'll talk about that later, but let's get into what motivated you guys to pursue a career in tech and what were some of the challenges that you faced along the way? >> I'll go first. The fact of the matter was I intended to be a double major in history and literature when I went off to university, but I was informed that I had to do a math or a science degree or else the university would not be paid for. At the time, UC Santa Cruz had a policy that called Open Access Computing. This is, you know, the late '80s, early '90s. And anybody at the university could get an email account and that was unusual at the time if you were, those of us who remember, you used to have to pay for that CompuServe or AOL or, there's another one, I forget what it was called, but if a student at Santa Cruz could have an email account. And because of that email account, I met people who were computer science majors and I'm like, "Okay, I'll try that." That seems good. And it was a little bit of a struggle for me, a lot I won't lie, but I can't complain with how it ended up. And certainly once I found my niche, which was development infrastructure, I found my true love and I've been doing it for almost 30 years now. >> Awesome. Great story. Can't wait to ask a few questions on that. We'll go back to that late '80s, early '90s. Lena, your journey, how you got into it. >> So slightly different start. I did not go to university. I had to leave school when I was 16, got a job, had to help support my family. Worked a bunch of various jobs till I was about 21 and then computers became more, I think, I wouldn't say they were ubiquitous, but they were certainly out there. And I'd also been saving up every penny I could earn to buy my own computer and bought an Amstrad 1640, 20 meg hard drive. It rocked. And kind of took that apart, put it back together again, and thought that could be money in this. And so basically just teaching myself about computers any job that I got. 'Cause most of my jobs were like clerical work and secretary at that point. But any job that had a computer in front of that, I would make it my business to go find the guy who did computing 'cause it was always a guy. And I would say, you know, I want to learn how these work. Let, you know, show me. And, you know, I would take my lunch hour and after work and anytime I could with these people and they were very kind with their time and I just kept learning, so yep. >> Yeah, those early days remind me of the inflection point we're going through now. This major C change coming. Back then, if you had a computer, you had to kind of be your own internal engineer to fix things. Remember back on the systems revolution, late '80s, Tara, when, you know, your career started, those were major inflection points. Now we're seeing a similar wave right now, security, infrastructure. It feels like it's going to a whole nother level. At Mongo, you guys certainly see this as well, with this AI surge coming in. A lot more action is coming in. And so there's a lot of parallels between these inflection points. How do you guys see this next wave of change? Obviously, the AI stuff's blowing everyone away. Oh, new user interface. It's been called the browser moment, the mobile iPhone moment, kind of for this generation. There's a lot of people out there who are watching that are young in their careers, what's your take on this? How would you talk to those folks around how important this wave is? >> It, you know, it's funny, I've been having this conversation quite a bit recently in part because, you know, to me AI in a lot of ways is very similar to, you know, back in the '90s when we were talking about bringing in the worldwide web to the forefront of the world, right. And we tended to think in terms of all the optimistic benefits that would come of it. You know, free passing of information, availability to anyone, anywhere. You just needed an internet connection, which back then of course meant a modem. >> John: Not everyone had though. >> Exactly. But what we found in the subsequent years is that human beings are what they are and we bring ourselves to whatever platforms that are there, right. And so, you know, as much as it was amazing to have this freely available HTML based internet experience, it also meant that the negatives came to the forefront quite quickly. And there were ramifications of that. And so to me, when I look at AI, we're already seeing the ramifications to that. Yes, are there these amazing, optimistic, wonderful things that can be done? Yes. >> Yeah. >> But we're also human and the bad stuff's going to come out too. And how do we- >> Yeah. >> How do we as an industry, as a community, you know, understand and mitigate those ramifications so that we can benefit more from the positive than the negative. So it is interesting that it comes kind of full circle in really interesting ways. >> Yeah. The underbelly takes place first, gets it in the early adopter mode. Normally industries with, you know, money involved arbitrage, no standards. But we've seen this movie before. Is there hope, Lena, that we can have a more secure environment? >> I would hope so. (Lena laughs) Although depressingly, we've been in this well for 30 years now and we're, at the end of the day, still telling people not to click links on emails. So yeah, that kind of still keeps me awake at night a wee bit. The whole thing about AI, I mean, it's, obviously I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination in AI. I did read (indistinct) book recently about AI and that was kind of interesting. And I'm just trying to teach myself as much as I can about it to the extent of even buying the "Dummies Guide to AI." Just because, it's actually not a dummies guide. It's actually fairly interesting, but I'm always thinking about it from a security standpoint. So it's kind of my worst nightmare and the best thing that could ever happen in the same dream. You know, you've got this technology where I can ask it a question and you know, it spits out generally a reasonable answer. And my team are working on with Mark Porter our CTO and his team on almost like an incubation of AI link. What would it look like from MongoDB? What's the legal ramifications? 'Cause there will be legal ramifications even though it's the wild, wild west just now, I think. Regulation's going to catch up to us pretty quickly, I would think. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> And so I think, you know, as long as companies have a seat at the table and governments perhaps don't become too dictatorial over this, then hopefully we'll be in a good place. But we'll see. I think it's a really interest, there's that curse, we're living in interesting times. I think that's where we are. >> It's interesting just to stay on this tech trend for a minute. The standards bodies are different now. Back in the old days there were, you know, IEEE standards, ITF standards. >> Tara: TPC. >> The developers are the new standard. I mean, now you're seeing open source completely different where it was in the '90s to here beginning, that was gen one, some say gen two, but I say gen one, now we're exploding with open source. You have kind of developers setting the standards. If developers like it in droves, it becomes defacto, which then kind of rolls into implementation. >> Yeah, I mean I think if you don't have developer input, and this is why I love working with Tara and her team so much is 'cause they get it. If we don't have input from developers, it's not going to get used. There's going to be ways of of working around it, especially when it comes to security. If they don't, you know, if you're a developer and you're sat at your screen and you don't want to do that particular thing, you're going to find a way around it. You're a smart person. >> Yeah. >> So. >> Developers on the front lines now versus, even back in the '90s, they're like, "Okay, consider the dev's, got a QA team." Everything was Waterfall, now it's Cloud, and developers are on the front lines of everything. Tara, I mean, this is where the standards are being met. What's your reaction to that? >> Well, I think it's outstanding. I mean, you know, like I was at Netscape and part of the crowd that released the browser as open source and we founded mozilla.org, right. And that was, you know, in many ways kind of the birth of the modern open source movement beyond what we used to have, what was basically free software foundation was sort of the only game in town. And I think it is so incredibly valuable. I want to emphasize, you know, and pile onto what Lena was saying, it's not just that the developers are having input on a sort of company by company basis. Open source to me is like a checks and balance, where it allows us as a broader community to be able to agree on and enforce certain standards in order to try and keep the technology platforms as accessible as possible. I think Kubernetes is a great example of that, right. If we didn't have Kubernetes, that would've really changed the nature of how we think about container orchestration. But even before that, Linux, right. Linux allowed us as an industry to end the Unix Wars and as someone who was on the front lines of that as well and having to support 42 different operating systems with our product, you know, that was a huge win. And it allowed us to stop arguing about operating systems and start arguing about software or not arguing, but developing it in positive ways. So with, you know, with Kubernetes, with container orchestration, we all agree, okay, that's just how we're going to orchestrate. Now we can build up this huge ecosystem, everybody gets taken along, right. And now it changes the game for what we're defining as business differentials, right. And so when we talk about crypto, that's a little bit harder, but certainly with AI, right, you know, what are the checks and balances that as an industry and as the developers around this, that we can in, you know, enforce to make sure that no one company or no one body is able to overly control how these things are managed, how it's defined. And I think that is only for the benefit in the industry as a whole, particularly when we think about the only other option is it gets regulated in ways that do not involve the people who actually know the details of what they're talking about. >> Regulated and or thrown away or bankrupt or- >> Driven underground. >> Yeah. >> Which would be even worse actually. >> Yeah, that's a really interesting, the checks and balances. I love that call out. And I was just talking with another interview part of the series around women being represented in the 51% ratio. Software is for everybody. So that we believe that open source movement around the collective intelligence of the participants in the industry and independent of gender, this is going to be the next wave. You're starting to see these videos really have impact because there are a lot more leaders now at the table in companies developing software systems and with AI, the aperture increases for applications. And this is the new dynamic. What's your guys view on this dynamic? How does this go forward in a positive way? Is there a certain trajectory you see? For women in the industry? >> I mean, I think some of the states are trying to, again, from the government angle, some of the states are trying to force women into the boardroom, for example, California, which can be no bad thing, but I don't know, sometimes I feel a bit iffy about all this kind of forced- >> John: Yeah. >> You know, making, I don't even know how to say it properly so you can cut this part of the interview. (John laughs) >> Tara: Well, and I think that they're >> I'll say it's not organic. >> No, and I think they're already pulling it out, right. It's already been challenged so they're in the process- >> Well, this is the open source angle, Tara, you are getting at it. The change agent is open, right? So to me, the history of the proven model is openness drives transparency drives progress. >> No, it's- >> If you believe that to be true, this could have another impact. >> Yeah, it's so interesting, right. Because if you look at McKinsey Consulting or Boston Consulting or some of the other, I'm blocking on all of the names. There has been a decade or more of research that shows that a non homogeneous employee base, be it gender or ethnicity or whatever, generates more revenue, right? There's dollar signs that can be attached to this, but it's not enough for all companies to want to invest in that way. And it's not enough for all, you know, venture firms or investment firms to grant that seed money or do those seed rounds. I think it's getting better very slowly, but socialization is a much harder thing to overcome over time. Particularly, when you're not just talking about one country like the United States in our case, but around the world. You know, tech centers now exist all over the world, including places that even 10 years ago we might not have expected like Nairobi, right. Which I think is amazing, but you have to factor in the cultural implications of that as well, right. So yes, the openness is important and we have, it's important that we have those voices, but I don't think it's a panacea solution, right. It's just one more piece. I think honestly that one of the most important opportunities has been with Cloud computing and Cloud's been around for a while. So why would I say that? It's because if you think about like everybody holds up the Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, back in the '70s, or Sergey and Larry for Google, you know, you had to have access to enough credit card limit to go to Fry's and buy your servers and then access to somebody like Susan Wojcicki to borrow the garage or whatever. But there was still a certain amount of upfrontness that you had to be able to commit to, whereas now, and we've, I think, seen a really good evidence of this being able to lease server resources by the second and have development platforms that you can do on your phone. I mean, for a while I think Africa, that the majority of development happened on mobile devices because there wasn't a sufficient supply chain of laptops yet. And that's no longer true now as far as I know. But like the power that that enables for people who would otherwise be underrepresented in our industry instantly opens it up, right? And so to me that's I think probably the biggest opportunity that we've seen from an industry on how to make more availability in underrepresented representation for entrepreneurship. >> Yeah. >> Something like AI, I think that's actually going to take us backwards if we're not careful. >> Yeah. >> Because of we're reinforcing that socialization. >> Well, also the bias. A lot of people commenting on the biases of the large language inherently built in are also problem. Lena, I want you to weigh on this too, because I think the skills question comes up here and I've been advocating that you don't need the pedigree, college pedigree, to get into a certain jobs, you mentioned Cloud computing. I mean, it's been around for you think a long time, but not really, really think about it. The ability to level up, okay, if you're going to join something new and half the jobs in cybersecurity are created in the past year, right? So, you have this what used to be a barrier, your degree, your pedigree, your certification would take years, would be a blocker. Now that's gone. >> Lena: Yeah, it's the opposite. >> That's, in fact, psychology. >> I think so, but the people who I, by and large, who I interview for jobs, they have, I think security people and also I work with our compliance folks and I can't forget them, but let's talk about security just now. I've always found a particular kind of mindset with security folks. We're very curious, not very good at following rules a lot of the time, and we'd love to teach others. I mean, that's one of the big things stem from the start of my career. People were always interested in teaching and I was interested in learning. So it was perfect. And I think also having, you know, strong women leaders at MongoDB allows other underrepresented groups to actually apply to the company 'cause they see that we're kind of talking the talk. And that's been important. I think it's really important. You know, you've got Tara and I on here today. There's obviously other senior women at MongoDB that you can talk to as well. There's a bunch of us. There's not a whole ton of us, but there's a bunch of us. And it's good. It's definitely growing. I've been there for four years now and I've seen a growth in women in senior leadership positions. And I think having that kind of track record of getting really good quality underrepresented candidates to not just interview, but come and join us, it's seen. And it's seen in the industry and people take notice and they're like, "Oh, okay, well if that person's working, you know, if Tara Hernandez is working there, I'm going to apply for that." And that in itself I think can really, you know, reap the rewards. But it's getting started. It's like how do you get your first strong female into that position or your first strong underrepresented person into that position? It's hard. I get it. If it was easy, we would've sold already. >> It's like anything. I want to see people like me, my friends in there. Am I going to be alone? Am I going to be of a group? It's a group psychology. Why wouldn't? So getting it out there is key. Is there skills that you think that people should pay attention to? One's come up as curiosity, learning. What are some of the best practices for folks trying to get into the tech field or that's in the tech field and advancing through? What advice are you guys- >> I mean, yeah, definitely, what I say to my team is within my budget, we try and give every at least one training course a year. And there's so much free stuff out there as well. But, you know, keep learning. And even if it's not right in your wheelhouse, don't pick about it. Don't, you know, take a look at what else could be out there that could interest you and then go for it. You know, what does it take you few minutes each night to read a book on something that might change your entire career? You know, be enthusiastic about the opportunities out there. And there's so many opportunities in security. Just so many. >> Tara, what's your advice for folks out there? Tons of stuff to taste, taste test, try things. >> Absolutely. I mean, I always say, you know, my primary qualifications for people, I'm looking for them to be smart and motivated, right. Because the industry changes so quickly. What we're doing now versus what we did even last year versus five years ago, you know, is completely different though themes are certainly the same. You know, we still have to code and we still have to compile that code or package the code and ship the code so, you know, how well can we adapt to these new things instead of creating floppy disks, which was my first job. Five and a quarters, even. The big ones. >> That's old school, OG. There it is. Well done. >> And now it's, you know, containers, you know, (indistinct) image containers. And so, you know, I've gotten a lot of really great success hiring boot campers, you know, career transitioners. Because they bring a lot experience in addition to the technical skills. I think the most important thing is to experiment and figuring out what do you like, because, you know, maybe you are really into security or maybe you're really into like deep level coding and you want to go back, you know, try to go to school to get a degree where you would actually want that level of learning. Or maybe you're a front end engineer, you want to be full stacked. Like there's so many different things, data science, right. Maybe you want to go learn R right. You know, I think it's like figure out what you like because once you find that, that in turn is going to energize you 'cause you're going to feel motivated. I think the worst thing you could do is try to force yourself to learn something that you really could not care less about. That's just the worst. You're going in handicapped. >> Yeah and there's choices now versus when we were breaking into the business. It was like, okay, you software engineer. They call it software engineering, that's all it was. You were that or you were in sales. Like, you know, some sort of systems engineer or sales and now it's,- >> I had never heard of my job when I was in school, right. I didn't even know it was a possibility. But there's so many different types of technical roles, you know, absolutely. >> It's so exciting. I wish I was young again. >> One of the- >> Me too. (Lena laughs) >> I don't. I like the age I am. So one of the things that I did to kind of harness that curiosity is we've set up a security champions programs. About 120, I guess, volunteers globally. And these are people from all different backgrounds and all genders, diversity groups, underrepresented groups, we feel are now represented within this champions program. And people basically give up about an hour or two of their time each week, with their supervisors permission, and we basically teach them different things about security. And we've now had seven full-time people move from different areas within MongoDB into my team as a result of that program. So, you know, monetarily and time, yeah, saved us both. But also we're showing people that there is a path, you know, if you start off in Tara's team, for example, doing X, you join the champions program, you're like, "You know, I'd really like to get into red teaming. That would be so cool." If it fits, then we make that happen. And that has been really important for me, especially to give, you know, the women in the underrepresented groups within MongoDB just that window into something they might never have seen otherwise. >> That's a great common fit is fit matters. Also that getting access to what you fit is also access to either mentoring or sponsorship or some sort of, at least some navigation. Like what's out there and not being afraid to like, you know, just ask. >> Yeah, we just actually kicked off our big mentor program last week, so I'm the executive sponsor of that. I know Tara is part of it, which is fantastic. >> We'll put a plug in for it. Go ahead. >> Yeah, no, it's amazing. There's, gosh, I don't even know the numbers anymore, but there's a lot of people involved in this and so much so that we've had to set up mentoring groups rather than one-on-one. And I think it was 45% of the mentors are actually male, which is quite incredible for a program called Mentor Her. And then what we want to do in the future is actually create a program called Mentor Them so that it's not, you know, not just on the female and so that we can live other groups represented and, you know, kind of break down those groups a wee bit more and have some more granularity in the offering. >> Tara, talk about mentoring and sponsorship. Open source has been there for a long time. People help each other. It's community-oriented. What's your view of how to work with mentors and sponsors if someone's moving through ranks? >> You know, one of the things that was really interesting, unfortunately, in some of the earliest open source communities is there was a lot of pervasive misogyny to be perfectly honest. >> Yeah. >> And one of the important adaptations that we made as an open source community was the idea, an introduction of code of conducts. And so when I'm talking to women who are thinking about expanding their skills, I encourage them to join open source communities to have opportunity, even if they're not getting paid for it, you know, to develop their skills to work with people to get those code reviews, right. I'm like, "Whatever you join, make sure they have a code of conduct and a good leadership team. It's very important." And there are plenty, right. And then that idea has come into, you know, conferences now. So now conferences have codes of contact, if there are any good, and maybe not all of them, but most of them, right. And the ideas of expanding that idea of intentional healthy culture. >> John: Yeah. >> As a business goal and business differentiator. I mean, I won't lie, when I was recruited to come to MongoDB, the culture that I was able to discern through talking to people, in addition to seeing that there was actually women in senior leadership roles like Lena, like Kayla Nelson, that was a huge win. And so it just builds on momentum. And so now, you know, those of us who are in that are now representing. And so that kind of reinforces, but it's all ties together, right. As the open source world goes, particularly for a company like MongoDB, which has an open source product, you know, and our community builds. You know, it's a good thing to be mindful of for us, how we interact with the community and you know, because that could also become an opportunity for recruiting. >> John: Yeah. >> Right. So we, in addition to people who might become advocates on Mongo's behalf in their own company as a solution for themselves, so. >> You guys had great successful company and great leadership there. I mean, I can't tell you how many times someone's told me "MongoDB doesn't scale. It's going to be dead next year." I mean, I was going back 10 years. It's like, just keeps getting better and better. You guys do a great job. So it's so fun to see the success of developers. Really appreciate you guys coming on the program. Final question, what are you guys excited about to end the segment? We'll give you guys the last word. Lena will start with you and Tara, you can wrap us up. What are you excited about? >> I'm excited to see what this year brings. I think with ChatGPT and its copycats, I think it'll be a very interesting year when it comes to AI and always in the lookout for the authentic deep fakes that we see coming out. So just trying to make people aware that this is a real thing. It's not just pretend. And then of course, our old friend ransomware, let's see where that's going to go. >> John: Yeah. >> And let's see where we get to and just genuine hygiene and housekeeping when it comes to security. >> Excellent. Tara. >> Ah, well for us, you know, we're always constantly trying to up our game from a security perspective in the software development life cycle. But also, you know, what can we do? You know, one interesting application of AI that maybe Google doesn't like to talk about is it is really cool as an addendum to search and you know, how we might incorporate that as far as our learning environment and developer productivity, and how can we enable our developers to be more efficient, productive in their day-to-day work. So, I don't know, there's all kinds of opportunities that we're looking at for how we might improve that process here at MongoDB and then maybe be able to share it with the world. One of the things I love about working at MongoDB is we get to use our own products, right. And so being able to have this interesting document database in order to put information and then maybe apply some sort of AI to get it out again, is something that we may well be looking at, if not this year, then certainly in the coming year. >> Awesome. Lena Smart, the chief information security officer. Tara Hernandez, vice president developer of productivity from MongoDB. Thank you so much for sharing here on International Women's Day. We're going to do this quarterly every year. We're going to do it and then we're going to do quarterly updates. Thank you so much for being part of this program. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (light airy music) >> Hi, everybody, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my co-host Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin is in the house. John Furrier is pounding the news from our Palo Alto studio. We are super excited to be talking about cloud at the edge, what that means. Charles Tsai is here. He's the Senior Director of product management at Dell Technologies and Peter Fetterolf is the Chief Technology Officer at ACG Business Analytics, a firm that goes deep into the TCO and the telco space, among other things. Gents, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. >> Good to be here. >> Yeah, good to be here. >> So I've been in search all week of the elusive next wave of monetization for the telcos. We know they make great money on connectivity, they're really good at that. But they're all talking about how they can't let this happen again. Meaning we can't let the over the top vendors yet again, basically steal our cookies. So we're going to not mess it up this time. We're going to win in the monetization. Charles, where are those monetization opportunities? Obviously at the edge, the telco cloud at the edge. What is that all about and where's the money? >> Well, Dave, I think from a Dell's perspective, what we want to be able to enable operators is a solution that enable them to roll out services much quicker, right? We know there's a lot of innovation around IoT, MEG and so on and so forth, but they continue to rely on traditional technology and way of operations is going to take them years to enable new services. So what Dell is doing is now, creating the entire vertical stack from the hardware through CAST and automation that enable them, not only to push out services very quickly, but operating them using cloud principles. >> So it's when you say the entire vertical stack, it's the integrated hardware components with like, for example, Red Hat on top- >> Right. >> Or a Wind River? >> That's correct. >> Okay, and then open API, so the developers can create workloads, I presume data companies. We just had a data conversation 'cause that was part of the original stack- >> That's correct. >> So through an open ecosystem, you can actually sort of recreate that value, correct? >> That's correct. >> Okay. >> So one thing Dell is doing, is we are offering an infrastructure block where we are taking over the overhead of certifying every release coming from the Red Hat or the Wind River of the world, right? We want telcos to spend their resources on what is going to generate them revenue. Not the overhead of creating this cloud stack. >> Dave, I remember when we went through this in the enterprise and you had companies like, you know, IBM with the AS400 and the mainframe saying it's easier to manage, which it was, but it's still, you know, it was subsumed by the open systems trend. >> Yeah, yeah. And I think that's an important thing to probe on, is this idea of what is, what exactly does it mean to be cloud at the edge in the telecom space? Because it's a much used term. >> Yeah. >> When we talk about cloud and edge, in sort of generalized IT, but what specifically does it mean? >> Yeah, so when we talk about telco cloud, first of all it's kind of different from what you're thinking about public cloud today. And there's a couple differences. One, if you look at the big hyperscaler public cloud today, they tend to be centralized in huge data centers. Okay, telco cloud, there are big data centers, but then there's also regional data centers. There are edge data centers, which are your typical like access central offices that have turned data centers, and then now even cell sites are becoming mini data centers. So it's distributed. I mean like you could have like, even in a country like say Germany, you'd have 30,000 soul sites, each one of them being a data center. So it's a very different model. Now the other thing I want to go back to the question of monetization, okay? So how do you do monetization? The only way to do that, is to be able to offer new services, like Charles said. How do you offer new services? You have to have an open ecosystem that's going to be very, very flexible. And if we look at where telcos are coming from today, they tend to be very inflexible 'cause they're all kind of single vendor solutions. And even as we've moved to virtualization, you know, if you look at packet core for instance, a lot of them are these vertical stacks of say a Nokia or Ericson or Huawei where you know, you can't really put any other vendors or any other solutions into that. So basically the idea is this kind of horizontal architecture, right? Where now across, not just my central data centers, but across my edge data centers, which would be traditionally my access COs, as well as my cell sites. I have an open environment. And we're kind of starting with, you know, packet core obviously with, and UPFs being distributed, but now open ran or virtual ran, where I can have CUs and DUs and I can split CUs, they could be at the soul site, they could be in edge data centers. But then moving forward, we're going to have like MEG, which are, you know, which are new kinds of services, you know, could be, you know, remote cars it could be gaming, it could be the Metaverse. And these are going to be a multi-vendor environment. So one of the things you need to do is you need to have you know, this cloud layer, and that's what Charles was talking about with the infrastructure blocks is helping the service providers do that, but they still own their infrastructure. >> Yeah, so it's still not clear to me how the service providers win that game but we can maybe come back to that because I want to dig into TCO a little bit. >> Sure. >> Because I have a lot of friends at Dell. I don't have a lot of friends at HPE. I've always been critical when they take an X86 server put a name on it that implies edge and they throw it over the fence to the edge, that's not going to work, okay? We're now seeing, you know we were just at the Dell booth yesterday, you did the booth crawl, which was awesome. Purpose-built servers for this environment. >> Charles: That's right. >> So there's two factors here that I want to explore in TCO. One is, how those next gen servers compare to the previous gen, especially in terms of power consumption but other factors and then how these sort of open ran, open ecosystem stacks compared to proprietary stacks. Peter, can you help us understand those? >> Yeah, sure. And Charles can comment on this as well. But I mean there, there's a couple areas. One is just moving the next generation. So especially on the Intel side, moving from Ice Lake to the Sapphire Rapids is a big deal, especially when it comes to the DU. And you know, with the radios, right? There's the radio unit, the RU, and then there's the DU the distributed unit, and the CU. The DU is really like part of the radio, but it's virtualized. When we moved from Ice lake to Sapphire Rapids, which is third generation intel to fourth generation intel, we're literally almost doubling the performance in the DU. And that's really important 'cause it means like almost half the number of servers and we're talking like 30, 40, 50,000 servers in some cases. So, you know, being able to divide that by two, that's really big, right? In terms of not only the the cost but all the TCO and the OpEx. Now another area that's really important, when I was talking moving from these vertical silos to the horizontal, the issue with the vertical silos is, you can't place any other workloads into those silos. So it's kind of inefficient, right? Whereas when we have the horizontal architecture, now you can place workloads wherever you want, which basically also means less servers but also more flexibility, more service agility. And then, you know, I think Charles can comment more, specifically on the XR8000, some things Dell's doing, 'cause it's really exciting relative to- >> Sure. >> What's happening in there. >> So, you know, when we start looking at putting compute at the edge, right? We recognize the first thing we have to do is understand the environment we are going into. So we spend with a lot of time with telcos going to the south side, going to the edge data center, looking at operation, how do the engineer today deal with maintenance replacement at those locations? Then based on understanding the operation constraints at those sites, we create innovation and take a traditional server, remodel it to make sure that we minimize the disruption to the operations, right? Just because we are helping them going from appliances to open compute, we do not want to disrupt what is have been a very efficient operation on the remote sites. So we created a lot of new ideas and develop them on general compute, where we believe we can save a lot of headache and disruptions and still provide the same level of availability, resiliency, and redundancy on an open compute platform. >> So when we talk about open, we don't mean generic? Fair? See what I mean? >> Open is more from the software workload perspective, right? A Dell server can run any type of workload that customer intend. >> But it's engineered for this? >> Environment. >> Environment. >> That's correct. >> And so what are some of the environmental issues that are dealt with in the telecom space that are different than the average data center? >> The most basic one, is in most of the traditional cell tower, they are deployed within cabinets instead of racks. So they are depth constraints that you just have no access to the rear of the chassis. So that means on a server, is everything you need to access, need to be in the front, nothing should be in the back. Then you need to consider how labor union come into play, right? There's a lot of constraint on who can go to a cell tower and touch power, who can go there and touch compute, right? So we minimize all that disruption through a modular design and make it very efficient. >> So when we took a look at XR8000, literally right here, sitting on the desk. >> Uh-huh. >> Took it apart, don't panic, just pulled out some sleds and things. >> Right, right. >> One of the interesting demonstrations was how it compared to the size of a shoe. Now apparently you hired someone at Dell specifically because they wear a size 14 shoe, (Charles laughs) so it was even more dramatic. >> That's right. >> But when you see it, and I would suggest that viewers go back and take a look at that segment, specifically on the hardware. You can see exactly what you just referenced. This idea that everything is accessible from the front. Yeah. >> So I want to dig in a couple things. So I want to push back a little bit on what you were saying about the horizontal 'cause there's the benefit, if you've got the horizontal infrastructure, you can run a lot more workloads. But I compare it to the enterprise 'cause I, that was the argument, I've made that argument with converged infrastructure versus say an Oracle vertical stack, but it turned out that actually Oracle ran Oracle better, okay? Is there an analog in telco or is this new open architecture going to be able to not only service the wide range of emerging apps but also be as resilient as the proprietary infrastructure? >> Yeah and you know, before I answer that, I also want to say that we've been writing a number of white papers. So we have actually three white papers we've just done with Dell looking at infrastructure blocks and looking at vertical versus horizontal and also looking at moving from the previous generation hardware to the next generation hardware. So all those details, you can find the white papers, and you can find them either in the Dell website or at the ACG research website >> ACGresearch.com? >> ACG research. Yeah, if you just search ACG research, you'll find- >> Yeah. >> Lots of white papers on TCO. So you know, what I want to say, relative to the vertical versus horizontal. Yeah, obviously in the vertical side, some of those things will run well, I mean it won't have issues. However, that being said, as we move to cloud native, you know, it's very high performance, okay? In terms of the stack, whether it be a Red Hat or a VMware or other cloud layers, that's really become much more mature. It now it's all CNF base, which is really containerized, very high performance. And so I don't think really performance is an issue. However, my feeling is that, if you want to offer new services and generate new revenue, you're not going to do it in vertical stacks, period. You're going to be able to do a packet core, you'll be able to do a ran over here. But now what if I want to offer a gaming service? What if I want to do metaverse? What if I want to do, you have to have an environment that's a multi-vendor environment that supports an ecosystem. Even in the RAN, when we look at the RIC, and the xApps and the rApps, these are multi-vendor environments that's going to create a lot of flexibility and you can't do that if you're restricted to, I can only have one vendor running on this hardware. >> Yeah, we're seeing these vendors work together and create RICs. That's obviously a key point, but what I'm hearing is that there may be trade offs, but the incremental value is going to overwhelm that. Second question I have, Peter is, TCO, I've been hearing a lot about 30%, you know, where's that 30% come from? Is it Op, is it from an OpEx standpoint? Is it labor, is it power? Is it, you mentioned, you know, cutting the number of servers in half. If I can unpack the granularity of that TCO, where's the benefit coming from? >> Yeah, the answer is yes. (Peter and Charles laugh) >> Okay, we'll do. >> Yeah, so- >> One side that, in terms of, where is the big bang for the bucks? >> So I mean, so you really need to look at the white paper to see details, but definitely power, definitely labor, definitely reducing the number of servers, you know, reducing the CapEx. The other thing is, is as you move to this really next generation horizontal telco cloud, there's the whole automation and orchestration, that is a key component as well. And it's enabled by what Dell is doing. It's enabled by the, because the thing is you're not going to have end-to-end automation if you have all this legacy stuff there or if you have these vertical stacks where you can't integrate. I mean you can automate that part and then you have separate automation here, you separate. you need to have integrated automation and orchestration across the whole thing. >> One other point I would add also, right, on the hardware perspective, right? With the customized hardware, what we allow operator to do is, take out the existing appliance and push a edge optimized server without reworking the entire infrastructure. There is a significant saving where you don't have to rethink about what is my power infrastructure, right? What is my security infrastructure? The server is designed to leverage the existing, what is already there. >> How should telco, Charles, plan for this transformation? Are there specific best practices that you would recommend in terms of the operational model? >> Great question. I think first thing is do an inventory of what you have. Understand what your constraints are and then come to Dell, we will love to consult with you, based on our experience on the best practices. We know how to minimize additional changes. We know how to help your support engineer, understand how to shift appliance based operation to a cloud-based operation. >> Is that a service you offer? Is that a pre-sales freebie? What is maybe both? >> It's both. >> Yeah. >> It's both. >> Yeah. >> Guys- >> Just really quickly. >> We're going to wrap. >> The, yeah. Dave loves the TCO discussion. I'm always thinking in terms of, well how do you measure TCO when you're comparing something where you can't do something to an environment where you're going to be able to do something new? And I know that that's always the challenge in any kind of emerging market where things are changing, any? >> Well, I mean we also look at, not only TCO, but we look at overall business case. So there's basically service at GLD and revenue and then there's faster time to revenues. Well, and actually ACG, we actually have a platform called the BAE or Business Analytics Engine that's a very sophisticated simulation cloud-based platform, where we can actually look at revenue month by month. And we look at what's the impact of accelerating revenue by three months. By four months. >> So you're looking into- >> By six months- >> So you're forward looking. You're just not consistently- >> So we're not just looking at TCO, we're looking at the overall business case benefit. >> Yeah, exactly right. There's the TCO, which is the hard dollars. >> Right. >> CFO wants to see that, he or she needs to see that. But you got to, you can convince that individual, that there's a business case around it. >> Peter: Yeah. >> And then you're going to sign up for that number. >> Peter: Yeah. >> And they're going to be held to it. That's the story the world wants. >> At the end of the day, telcos have to be offered new services 'cause look at all the money that's been spent. >> Dave: Yeah, that's right. >> On investment on 5G and everything else. >> 0.5 trillion over the next seven years. All right, guys, we got to go. Sorry to cut you off. >> Okay, thank you very much. >> But we're wall to wall here. All right, thanks so much for coming on. >> Dave: Fantastic. >> All right, Dave Vellante, for Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's in the house. John Furrier in Palo Alto Studios. Keep it right there. MWC 23 live from the Fira in Barcelona. (light airy music)

(gentle music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here, in our Palo Alto Studios. We're featuring OctoML. I'm with the CEO, Luis Ceze. Chief Executive Officer, Co-founder of OctoML. I'm John Furrier of theCUBE. Thanks for joining us today. Luis, great to see you. Last time we spoke was at "re:MARS" Amazon's event. Kind of a joint event between (indistinct) and Amazon, kind of put a lot together. Great to see you. >> Great to see you again, John. I really have good memories of that interview. You know, that was definitely a great time. Great to chat with you again. >> The world of ML and AI, machine learning and AI is really hot. Everyone's talking about it. It's really great to see that advance. So I'm looking forward to this conversation but before we get started, introduce who you are in OctoML. >> Sure. I'm Luis Ceze, Co-founder and CEO at OctoML. I'm also professor of Computer Science at University of Washington. You know, OctoML grew out of our efforts on the Apache CVM project, which is a compiler in runtime system that enables folks to run machine learning models in a broad set of harder in the Edge and in the Cloud very efficiently. You know, we grew that project and grew that community, definitely saw there was something to pain point there. And then we built OctoML, OctoML is about three and a half years old now. And the mission, the company is to enable customers to deploy models very efficiently in the Cloud. And make them, you know, run. Do it quickly, run fast, and run at a low cost, which is something that's especially timely right now. >> I like to point out also for the folks 'casue they should know that you're also a professor in the Computer Science department at University of Washington. A great program there. This is a really an inflection point with AI machine learning. The computer science industry has been waiting for decades to advance AI with all this new cloud computing, all the hardware and silicon advancements, GPUs. This is the perfect storm. And you know, this the computer science now we we're seeing an acceleration. Can you share your view, and you're obviously a professor in that department but also, an entrepreneur. This is a great time for computer science. Explain why. >> Absolutely, yeah, no. Just like the confluence of you know, advances in what, you know, computers can do as devices to computer information. Plus, you know, advances in AI that enable applications that you know, we thought it was highly futuristic and now it's just right there today. You know, AI that can generate photo realistic images from descriptions, you know, can write text that's pretty good. Can help augment, you know, human creativity in a really meaningful way. So you see the confluence of capabilities and the creativity of humankind into new applications is just extremely exciting, both from a researcher point of view as well as an entrepreneur point of view, right. >> What should people know about these large language models we're seeing with ChatGPT and how Google has got a lot of work going on that air. There's been a lot of work recently. What's different now about these models, and why are they so popular and effective now? What's the difference between now, and say five years ago, that makes it more- >> Oh, yeah. It's a huge inflection on their capabilities, I always say like emergent behavior, right? So as these models got more complex and our ability to train and deploy them, you know, got to this point... You know, they really crossed a threshold into doing things that are truly surprising, right? In terms of generating, you know, exhalation for things generating tax, summarizing tax, expending tax. And you know, exhibiting what to some may look like reasoning. They're not quite reasoning fundamentally. They're generating tax that looks like they're reasoning, but they do it so well, that it feels like was done by a human, right. So I would say that the biggest changes that, you know, now, they can actually do things that are extremely useful for business in people's lives today. And that wasn't the case five years ago. So that's in the model capabilities and that is being paired with huge advances in computing that enabled this to be... Enables this to be, you know, actually see line of sites to be deployed at scale, right. And that's where we come in, by the way, but yeah. >> Yeah, I want to get into that. And also, you know, the fusion of data integrating data sets at scales. Another one we're seeing a lot of happening now. It's not just some, you know, siloed, pre-built data modeling. It's a lot of agility and a lot of new integration capabilities of data. How is that impacting the dynamics? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'll say that the ability to either take the data that has that exists in training a model to do something useful with it, and more interestingly I would say, using baseline foundational models and with a little bit of data, turn them into something that can do a specialized task really, really well. Created this really fast proliferation of really impactful applications, right? >> If every company now is looking at this trend and I'm seeing a lot... And I think every company will rebuild their business with machine learning. If they're not already doing it. And the folks that aren't will probably be dinosaurs will be out of business. This is a real business transformation moment where machine learning and AI, as it goes mainstream. I think it's just the beginning. This is where you guys come in, and you guys are poised for handling this frenzy to change business with machine learning models. How do you guys help customers as they look at this, you know, transition to get, you know, concept to production with machine learning? >> Great. Great questions, yeah, so I would say that it's fair to say there's a bunch of models out there that can do useful things right off the box, right? So and also, the ability to create models improved quite a bit. So the challenge now shifted to customers, you know. Everyone is looking to incorporating AI into their applications. So what we do for them is to, first of all, how do you do that quickly, without needing highly specialized, difficult to find engineering? And very importantly, how do you do that at cost that's accessible, right? So all of these fantastic models that we just talked about, they use an amount of computing that's just astronomical compared to anything else we've done in the past. It means the costs that come with it, are also very, very high. So it's important to enable customers to, you know, incorporate AI into their applications, to their use cases in a way that they can do, with the people that they have, and the costs that they can afford, such that they can have, you know, the maximum impacting possibly have. And finally, you know, helping them deal with hardware availability, as you know, even though we made a lot of progress in making computing cheaper and cheaper. Even to this day, you know, you can never get enough. And getting an allocation, getting the right hardware to run these incredibly hungry models is hard. And we help customers deal with, you know, harder availability as well. >> Yeah, for the folks watching as a... If you search YouTube, there's an interview we did last year at "re:MARS," I mentioned that earlier, just a great interview. You talked about this hardware independence, this traction. I want to get into that, because if you look at all the foundation models that are out there right now, that are getting traction, you're seeing two trends. You're seeing proprietary and open source. And obviously, open source always wins in my opinion, but, you know, there's this iPhone moment and android moment that one of your investors John Torrey from Madrona, talked about was is iPhone versus Android moment, you know, one's proprietary hardware and they're very specialized high performance and then open source. This is an important distinction and you guys are hardware independent. What's the... Explain what all this means. >> Yeah. Great set of questions. First of all, yeah. So, you know, OpenAI, and of course, they create ChatGPT and they offer an API to run these models that does amazing things. But customers have to be able to go and send their data over to OpenAI, right? So, and run the model there and get the outputs. Now, there's open source models that can do amazing things as well, right? So they typically open source models, so they don't lag behind, you know, these proprietary closed models by more than say, you know, six months or so, let's say. And it means that enabling customers to take the models that they want and deploy under their control is something that's very valuable, because one, you don't have to expose your data to externally. Two, you can customize the model even more to the things that you wanted to do. And then three, you can run on an infrastructure that can be much more cost effective than having to, you know, pay somebody else's, you know, cost and markup, right? So, and where we help them is essentially help customers, enable customers to take machine learning models, say an open source model, and automate the process of putting them into production, optimize them to run with the right performance, and more importantly, give them the independence to run where they need to run, where they can run best, right? >> Yeah, and also, you know, I point out all the time that, you know, there's never any stopping the innovation of hardware silicon. You're seeing cloud computing more coming in there. So, you know, being hardware independent has some advantages. And if you look at OpenAI, for instance, you mentioned ChatGPT, I think this is interesting because I think everyone is scratching their head, going, "Okay, I need to move to this new generation." What's your pro tip and advice for folks who want to move to, or businesses that want to say move to machine learning? How do they get started? What are some of the considerations they need to think about to deploy these models into production? >> Yeah, great though. Great set of questions. First of all, I mean, I'm sure they're very aware of the kind of things that you want to do with AI, right? So you could be interacting with customers, you know, automating, interacting with customers. It could be, you know, finding issues in production lines. It could be, you know... Generating, you know, making it easier to produce content and so on. Like, you know, customers, users would have an idea what they want to do. You know, from that it can actually determine, what kind of machine learning models would solve the problem that would, you know, fits that use case. But then, that's when the hard thing begins, right? So when you find a model, identify the model that can do the thing that you wanted to do, you need to turn that into a thing that you can deploy. So how do you go from machine learning model that does a thing that you need to do, to a container with the right executor, the artifact they can actually go and deploy, right? So we've seen customers doing that on their own, right? So, and it's got a bit of work, and that's why we are excited about the automation that we can offer and then turn that into a turnkey problem, right? So a turnkey process. >> Luis, talk about the use cases. If I don't mind going and double down on the previous answer. You got existing services, and then there's new AI applications, AI for applications. What are the use cases with existing stuff, and the new applications that are being built? >> Yeah, I mean, existing itself is, for example, how do you do very smart search and auto completion, you know, when you are editing documents, for example. Very, very smart search of documents, summarization of tax, expanding bullets into pros in a way that, you know, don't have to spend as much human time. Just some of the existing applications, right? So some of the new ones are like truly AI native ways of producing content. Like there's a company that, you know, we share investors and love what they're doing called runwayyML, for example. It's sort of like an AI first way of editing and creating visual content, right? So you could say you have a video, you could say make this video look like, it's night as opposed to dark, or remove that dog in the corner. You can do that in a way that you couldn't do otherwise. So there's like definitely AI native use cases. And yet not only in life sciences, you know, there's quite a bit of advances on AI-based, you know, therapies and diagnostics processes that are designed using automated processes. And this is something that I feel like, we were just scratching the surface there. There's huge opportunities there, right? >> Talk about the inference and AI and production kind of angle here, because cost is a huge concern when you look at... And there's a hardware and that flexibility there. So I can see how that could help, but is there a cost freight train that can get out of control here if you don't deploy properly? Talk about the scale problem around cost in AI. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, very quickly. One thing that people tend to think about is the cost is. You know, training has really high dollar amounts it tends over index on that. But what you have to think about is that for every model that's actually useful, you're going to train it once, and then run it a large number of times in inference. That means that over the lifetime of a model, the vast majority of the compute cycles and the cost are going to go to inference. And that's what we address, right? So, and to give you some idea, if you're talking about using large language model today, you know, you can say it's going to cost a couple of cents per, you know, 2,000 words output. If you have a million users active, you know, a day, you know, if you're lucky and you have that, you can, this cost can actually balloon very quickly to millions of dollars a month, just in inferencing costs. You know, assuming you know, that you actually have access to the infrastructure to run it, right? So means that if you don't pay attention to these inference costs and that's definitely going to be a surprise. And affects the economics of the product where this is embedded in, right? So this is something that, you know, if there's quite a bit of attention being put on right now on how do you do search with large language models and you don't pay attention to the economics, you know, you can have a surprise. You have to change the business model there. >> Yeah. I think that's important to call out, because you don't want it to be a runaway cost structure where you architected it wrong and then next thing you know, you got to unwind that. I mean, it's more than technical debt, it's actually real debt, it's real money. So, talk about some of the dynamics with the customers. How are they architecting this? How do they get ahead of that problem? What do you guys do specifically to solve that? >> Yeah, I mean, well, we help customers. So, it's first of all, be hyper aware, you know, understanding what's going to be the cost for them deploying the models into production and showing them the possibilities of how you can deploy the model with different cost structure, right? So that's where, you know, the ability to have hardware independence is so important because once you have hardware independence, after you optimize models, obviously, you have a new, you know, dimension of freedom to choose, you know, what is the right throughput per dollar for you. And then where, and what are the options? And once you make that decision, you want to automate the process of putting into production. So the way we help customers is showing very clearly in their use case, you know, how they can deploy their models in a much more cost-effective way. You know, when the cases... There's a case study that we put out recently, showing a 4x reduction in deployment costs, right? So this is by doing a mix optimization and choosing the right hardware. >> How do you address the concern that someone might say, Luis said, "Hey, you know, I don't want to degrade performance and latency, and I don't want the user experience to suffer." What's the answer there? >> Two things. So first of all, all of the manipulations that we do in the model is to turn the model to efficient code without changing the behavior of the models. We wouldn't degrade the experience of the user by having the model be wrong more often. And we don't change that at all. The model behaves the way it was validated for. And then the second thing is, you know, user experience with respect to latency, it's all about a maximum... Like, you could say, I want a model to run at 50 milliseconds or less. If it's much faster than 15 seconds, you're not going to notice the difference. But if it's lower, you're going to notice a difference. So the key here is that, how do you find a set of options to deploy, that you are not overshooting performance in a way that's going to lead to costs that has no additional benefits. And this provides a huge, a very significant margin of choices, set of choices that you can optimize for cost without degrading customer experience, right. End user experience. >> Yeah, and I also point out the large language models like the ChatGPTs of the world, they're coming out with Dave Moth and I were talking on this breaking analysis around, this being like, over 10X more computational intensive on capabilities. So this hardware independence is a huge thing. So, and also supply chain, some people can't get servers by the way, so, or hardware these days. >> Or even more interestingly, right? So they do not grow in trees, John. Like GPUs is not kind of stuff that you plant an orchard until you have a bunch and then you can increase it, but no, these things, you know, take a while. So, and you can't increase it overnight. So being able to live with those cycles that are available to you is not just important for all for cost, but also important for people to scale and serve more users at, you know, at whatever pace that they come, right? >> You know, it's really great to talk to you, and congratulations on OctaML. Looking forward to the startup showcase, we'll be featuring you guys there. But I want to get your personal opinion as someone in the industry and also, someone who's been in the computer science area for your career. You know, computer science has always been great, and there's more people enrolling in computer science, more diversity than ever before, but there's also more computer science related fields. How is this opening up computer science and where's AI going with the computers, with the science? Can you share your vision on, you know, the aperture, or the landscape of CompSci, or CS students, and opportunities. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's fair to say that computer has been embedded in pretty much every aspect of human life these days. Human life these days, right? So for everything. And AI has been a counterpart, it been an integral component of computer science for a while. And this medicines that happened in the last 10, 15 years in AI has shown, you know, new application has I think re-energized how people see what computers can do. And you, you know, there is this picture in our department that shows computer science at the center called the flower picture, and then all the different paddles like life sciences, social sciences, and then, you know, mechanical engineering, all these other things that, and I feel like it can replace that center with computer science. I put AI there as well, you see AI, you know touching all these applications. AI in healthcare, diagnostics. AI in discovery in the sciences, right? So, but then also AI doing things that, you know, the humans wouldn't have to do anymore. They can do better things with their brains, right? So it's permitting every single aspect of human life from intellectual endeavor to day-to-day work, right? >> Yeah. And I think the ChatGPT and OpenAI has really kind of created a mainstream view that everyone sees value in it. Like you could be in the data center, you could be in bio, you could be in healthcare. I mean, every industry sees value. So this brings up what I can call the horizontally scalable use constance. And so this opens up the conversation, what's going to change from this? Because if you go horizontally scalable, which is a cloud concept as you know, that's going to create a lot of opportunities and some shifting of how you think about architecture around data, for instance. What's your opinion on what this will do to change the inflection of the role of architecting platforms and the role of data specifically? >> Yeah, so good question. There is a lot in there, by the way, I should have added the previous question, that you can use AI to do better AI as well, which is what we do, and other folks are doing as well. And so the point I wanted to make here is that it's pretty clear that you have a cloud focus component with a nudge focused counterparts. Like you have AI models, but both in the Cloud and in the Edge, right? So the ability of being able to run your AI model where it runs best also has a data advantage to it from say, from a privacy point of view. That's inherently could say, "Hey, I want to run something, you know, locally, strictly locally, such that I don't expose the data to an infrastructure." And you know that the data never leaves you, right? Never leaves the device. Now you can imagine things that's already starting to happen, like you do some forms of training and model customization in the model architecture itself and the system architecture, such that you do this as close to the user as possible. And there's something called federated learning that has been around for some time now that's finally happening is, how do you get a data from butcher places, you do, you know, some common learning and then you send a model to the Edges, and they get refined for the final use in a way that you get the advantage of aggregating data but you don't get the disadvantage of privacy issues and so on. >> It's super exciting. >> And some of the considerations, yeah. >> It's super exciting area around data infrastructure, data science, computer science. Luis, congratulations on your success at OctaML. You're in the middle of it. And the best thing about its businesses are looking at this and really reinventing themselves and if a business isn't thinking about restructuring their business around AI, they're probably will be out of business. So this is a great time to be in the field. So thank you for sharing your insights here in theCUBE. >> Great. Thank you very much, John. Always a pleasure talking to you. Always have a lot of fun. And we both speak really fast, I can tell, you know, so. (both laughing) >> I know. We'll not the transcript available, we'll integrate it into our CubeGPT model that we have Luis. >> That's right. >> Great. >> Great. >> Great to talk to you, thank you, John. Thanks, man, bye. >> Hey, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, Cube Conversation. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(uplifting music) >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon, the inaugural event, in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, here in the Palo Alto Studios. We're calling it theCUBE Center. It's kind of like our Sports Center for tech. It's kind of remote coverage. We've been doing this now for a few years. We're going to amp it up this year as more events are remote, and happening all around the world. So, we're going to continue the coverage with this segment focusing on the data stack, entrepreneurial opportunities around all things security, and as, obviously, data's involved. And our next guest is a friend of theCUBE, and CUBE alumni from 2013, entrepreneur himself, turned, now, venture capitalist angel investor, with his own firm, Opher Kahane, Managing Director, Sonoma Ventures. Formerly the founder of Origami, sold to Intuit a few years back. Focusing now on having a lot of fun, angel investing on boards, focusing on data-driven applications, and stacks around that, and all the stuff going on in, really, in the wheelhouse for what's going on around security data. Opher, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. Great to be back. It's been a while. >> So you're kind of on Easy Street now. You did the entrepreneurial venture, you've worked hard. We were on together in 2013 when theCUBE just started. XCEL Partners had an event in Stanford, XCEL, and they had all the features there. We interviewed Satya Nadella, who was just a manager at Microsoft at that time, he was there. He's now the CEO of Microsoft. >> Yeah, he was. >> A lot's changed in nine years. But congratulations on your venture you sold, and you got an exit there, and now you're doing a lot of investments. I'd love to get your take, because this is really the biggest change I've seen in the past 12 years, around an inflection point around a lot of converging forces. Data, which, big data, 10 years ago, was a big part of your career, but now it's accelerated, with cloud scale. You're seeing people building scale on top of other clouds, and becoming their own cloud. You're seeing data being a big part of it. Cybersecurity kind of has not really changed much, but it's the most important thing everyone's talking about. So, developers are involved, data's involved, a lot of entrepreneurial opportunities. So I'd love to get your take on how you see the current situation, as it relates to what's gone on in the past five years or so. What's the big story? >> So, a lot of big stories, but I think a lot of it has to do with a promise of making value from data, whether it's for cybersecurity, for Fintech, for DevOps, for RevTech startups and companies. There's a lot of challenges in actually driving and monetizing the value from data with velocity. Historically, the challenge has been more around, "How do I store data at massive scale?" And then you had the big data infrastructure company, like Cloudera, and MapR, and others, deal with it from a scale perspective, from a storage perspective. Then you had a whole layer of companies that evolved to deal with, "How do I index massive scales of data, for quick querying, and federated access, et cetera?" But now that a lot of those underlying problems, if you will, have been solved, to a certain extent, although they're always being stretched, given the scale of data, and its utility is becoming more and more massive, in particular with AI use cases being very prominent right now, the next level is how to actually make value from the data. How do I manage the full lifecycle of data in complex environments, with complex organizations, complex use cases? And having seen this from the inside, with Origami Logic, as we dealt with a lot of large corporations, and post-acquisition by Intuit, and a lot of the startups I'm involved with, it's clear that we're now onto that next step. And you have fundamental new paradigms, such as data mesh, that attempt to address that complexity, and responsibly scaling access, and democratizing access in the value monetization from data, across large organizations. You have a slew of startups that are evolving to help the entire lifecycle of data, from the data engineering side of it, to the data analytics side of it, to the AI use cases side of it. And it feels like the early days, to a certain extent, of the revolution that we've seen in transition from traditional databases, to data warehouses, to cloud-based data processing, and big data. It feels like we're at the genesis of that next wave. And it's super, super exciting, for me at least, as someone who's sitting more in the coach seat, rather than being on the pitch, and building startups, helping folks as they go through those motions. >> So that's awesome. I want to get into some of these data infrastructure dynamics you mentioned, but before that, talk to the audience around what you're working on now. You've been a successful entrepreneur, you're focused on angel investing, so, super-early seed stage. What kind of deals are you looking at? What's interesting to you? What is Sonoma Ventures looking for, and what are some of the entrepreneurial dynamics that you're seeing right now, from a startup standpoint? >> Cool, so, at a macro level, this is a little bit of background of my history, because it shapes very heavily what it is that I'm looking at. So, I've been very fortunate with entrepreneurial career. I founded three startups. All three of them are successful. Final two were sold, the first one merged and went public. And my third career has been about data, moving data, passing data, processing data, generating insights from it. And, at this phase, I wanted to really evolve from just going and building startup number four, from going through the same motions again. A 10 year adventure, I'm a little bit too old for that, I guess. But the next best thing is to sit from a point whereby I can be more elevated in where I'm dealing with, and broaden the variety of startups I'm focused on, rather than just do your own thing, and just go very, very deep into it. Now, what specifically am I focused on at Sonoma Ventures? So, basically, looking at what I refer to as a data-driven application stack. Anything from the low-level data infrastructure and cloud infrastructure, that helps any persona in the data universe maximize value for data, from their particular point of view, for their particular role, whether it's data analysts, data scientists, data engineers, cloud engineers, DevOps folks, et cetera. All the way up to the application layer, in applications that are very data-heavy. And what are very typical data-heavy applications? FinTech, cyber, Web3, revenue technologies, and product and DevOps. So these are the areas we're focused on. I have almost 23 or 24 startups in the portfolio that span all these different areas. And this is in terms of the aperture. Now, typically, focus on pre-seed, seed. Sometimes a little bit later stage, but this is the primary focus. And it's really about partnering with entrepreneurs, and helping them make, if you will, original mistakes, avoid the mistakes I made. >> Yeah. >> And take it to the next level, whatever the milestone they're driving with. So I'm very, very hands-on with many of those startups. Now, what is it that's happening right now, initially, and why is it so exciting? So, on one hand, you have this scaling of data and its complexity, yet lagging value creation from it, across those different personas we've touched on. So that's one fundamental opportunity which is secular. The other one, which is more a cyclic situation, is the fact that we're going through a down cycle in tech, as is very evident in the public markets, and everything we're hearing about funding going slower and lower, terms shifting more into the hands of typical VCs versus entrepreneur-friendly market, and so on and so forth. And a very significant amount of layoffs. Now, when you combine these two trends together, you're observing a very interesting thing, that a lot of folks, really bright folks, who have sold a startup to a company, or have been in the guts of the large startup, or a large corporation, have, hands-on, experienced all those challenges we've spoken about earlier, in turf, maximizing value from data, irrespective of their role, in a specific angle, or vantage point they have on those challenges. So, for many of them, it's an opportunity to, "Now, let me now start a startup. I've been laid off, maybe, or my company's stock isn't doing as well as it used to, as a large corporation. Now I have an opportunity to actually go and take my entrepreneurial passion, and apply it to a product and experience as part of this larger company." >> Yeah. >> And you see a slew of folks who are emerging with these great ideas. So it's a very, very exciting period of time to innovate. >> It's interesting, a lot of people look at, I mean, I look at Snowflake as an example of a company that refactored data warehouses. They just basically took data warehouse, and put it on the cloud, and called it a data cloud. That, to me, was compelling. They didn't pay any CapEx. They rode Amazon's wave there. So, a similar thing going on with data. You mentioned this, and I see it as an enabling opportunity. So whether it's cybersecurity, FinTech, whatever vertical, you have an enablement. Now, you mentioned data infrastructure. It's a super exciting area, as there's so many stacks emerging. We got an analytics stack, there's real-time stacks, there's data lakes, AI stack, foundational models. So, you're seeing an explosion of stacks, different tools probably will emerge. So, how do you look at that, as a seasoned entrepreneur, now investor? Is that a good thing? Is that just more of the market? 'Cause it just seems like more and more kind of decomposed stacks targeted at use cases seems to be a trend. >> Yeah. >> And how do you vet that, is it? >> So it's a great observation, and if you take a step back and look at the evolution of technology over the last 30 years, maybe longer, you always see these cycles of expansion, fragmentation, contraction, expansion, contraction. Go decentralize, go centralize, go decentralize, go centralize, as manifested in different types of technology paradigms. From client server, to storage, to microservices, to et cetera, et cetera. So I think we're going through another big bang, to a certain extent, whereby end up with more specialized data stacks for specific use cases, as you need performance, the data models, the tooling to best adapt to the particular task at hand, and the particular personas at hand. As the needs of the data analysts are quite different from the needs of an NL engineer, it's quite different from the needs of the data engineer. And what happens is, when you end up with these siloed stacks, you end up with new fragmentation, and new gaps that need to be filled with a new layer of innovation. And I suspect that, in part, that's what we're seeing right now, in terms of the next wave of data innovation. Whether it's in a service of FinTech use cases, or cyber use cases, or other, is a set of tools that end up having to try and stitch together those elements and bridge between them. So I see that as a fantastic gap to innovate around. I see, also, a fundamental need in creating a common data language, and common data management processes and governance across those different personas, because ultimately, the same underlying data these folks need, albeit in different mediums, different access models, different velocities, et cetera, the subject matter, if you will, the underlying raw data, and some of the taxonomies right on top of it, do need to be consistent. So, once again, a great opportunity to innovate, whether it's about semantic layers, whether it's about data mesh, whether it's about CICD tools for data engineers, and so on and so forth. >> I got to ask you, first of all, I see you have a friend you brought into the interview. You have a dog in the background who made a little cameo appearance. And that's awesome. Sitting right next to you, making sure everything's going well. On the AI thing, 'cause I think that's the hot trend here. >> Yeah. >> You're starting to see, that ChatGPT's got everyone excited, because it's kind of that first time you see kind of next-gen functionality, large-language models, where you can bring data in, and it integrates well. So, to me, I think, connecting the dots, this kind of speaks to the beginning of what will be a trend of really blending of data stacks together, or blending of models. And so, as more data modeling emerges, you start to have this AI stack kind of situation, where you have things out there that you can compose. It's almost very developer-friendly, conceptually. This is kind of new, but kind of the same concept's been working on with Google and others. How do you see this emerging, as an investor? What are some of the things that you're excited about, around the ChatGPT kind of things that's happening? 'Cause it brings it mainstream. Again, a million downloads, fastest applications get a million downloads, even among all the successes. So it's obviously hit a nerve. People are talking about it. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, so, I think that's a great point, and clearly, it feels like an iPhone moment, right, to the industry, in this case, AI, and lots of applications. And I think there's, at a high level, probably three different layers of innovation. One is on top of those platforms. What use cases can one bring to the table that would drive on top of a ChatGPT-like service? Whereby, the startup, the company, can bring some unique datasets to infuse and add value on top of it, by custom-focusing it and purpose-building it for a particular use case or particular vertical. Whether it's applying it to customer service, in a particular vertical, applying it to, I don't know, marketing content creation, and so on and so forth. That's one category. And I do know that, as one of my startups is in Y Combinator, this season, winter '23, they're saying that a very large chunk of the YC companies in this cycle are about GPT use cases. So we'll see a flurry of that. The next layer, the one below that, is those who actually provide those platforms, whether it's ChatGPT, whatever will emerge from the partnership with Microsoft, and any competitive players that emerge from other startups, or from the big cloud providers, whether it's Facebook, if they ever get into this, and Google, which clearly will, as they need to, to survive around search. The third layer is the enabling layer. As you're going to have more and more of those different large-language models and use case running on top of it, the underlying layers, all the way down to cloud infrastructure, the data infrastructure, and the entire set of tools and systems, that take raw data, and massage it into useful, labeled, contextualized features and data to feed the models, the AI models, whether it's during training, or during inference stages, in production. Personally, my focus is more on the infrastructure than on the application use cases. And I believe that there's going to be a massive amount of innovation opportunity around that, to reach cost-effective, quality, fair models that are deployed easily and maintained easily, or at least with as little pain as possible, at scale. So there are startups that are dealing with it, in various areas. Some are about focusing on labeling automation, some about fairness, about, speaking about cyber, protecting models from threats through data and other issues with it, and so on and so forth. And I believe that this will be, too, a big driver for massive innovation, the infrastructure layer. >> Awesome, and I love how you mentioned the iPhone moment. I call it the browser moment, 'cause it felt that way for me, personally. >> Yep. >> But I think, from a business model standpoint, there is that iPhone shift. It's not the BlackBerry. It's a whole 'nother thing. And I like that. But I do have to ask you, because this is interesting. You mentioned iPhone. iPhone's mostly proprietary. So, in these machine learning foundational models, >> Yeah. >> you're starting to see proprietary hardware, bolt-on, acceleration, bundled together, for faster uptake. And now you got open source emerging, as two things. It's almost iPhone-Android situation happening. >> Yeah. >> So what's your view on that? Because there's pros and cons for either one. You're seeing a lot of these machine learning laws are very proprietary, but they work, and do you care, right? >> Yeah. >> And then you got open source, which is like, "Okay, let's get some upsource code, and let people verify it, and then build with that." Is it a balance? >> Yes, I think- >> Is it mutually exclusive? What's your view? >> I think it's going to be, markets will drive the proportion of both, and I think, for a certain use case, you'll end up with more proprietary offerings. With certain use cases, I guess the fundamental infrastructure for ChatGPT-like, let's say, large-language models and all the use cases running on top of it, that's likely going to be more platform-oriented and open source, and will allow innovation. Think of it as the equivalent of iPhone apps or Android apps running on top of those platforms, as in AI apps. So we'll have a lot of that. Now, when you start going a little bit more into the guts, the lower layers, then it's clear that, for performance reasons, in particular, for certain use cases, we'll end up with more proprietary offerings, whether it's advanced silicon, such as some of the silicon that emerged from entrepreneurs who have left Google, around TensorFlow, and all the silicon that powers that. You'll see a lot of innovation in that area as well. It hopefully intends to improve the cost efficiency of running large AI-oriented workloads, both in inference and in learning stages. >> I got to ask you, because this has come up a lot around Azure and Microsoft. Microsoft, pretty good move getting into the ChatGPT >> Yep. >> and the open AI, because I was talking to someone who's a hardcore Amazon developer, and they said, they swore they would never use Azure, right? One of those types. And they're spinning up Azure servers to get access to the API. So, the developers are flocking, as you mentioned. The YC class is all doing large data things, because you can now program with data, which is amazing, which is amazing. So, what's your take on, I know you got to be kind of neutral 'cause you're an investor, but you got, Amazon has to respond, Google, essentially, did all the work, so they have to have a solution. So, I'm expecting Google to have something very compelling, but Microsoft, right now, is going to just, might run the table on developers, this new wave of data developers. What's your take on the cloud responses to this? What's Amazon, what do you think AWS is going to do? What should Google be doing? What's your take? >> So, each of them is coming from a slightly different angle, of course. I'll say, Google, I think, has massive assets in the AI space, and their underlying cloud platform, I think, has been designed to support such complicated workloads, but they have yet to go as far as opening it up the same way ChatGPT is now in that Microsoft partnership, and Azure. Good question regarding Amazon. AWS has had a significant investment in AI-related infrastructure. Seeing it through my startups, through other lens as well. How will they respond to that higher layer, above and beyond the low level, if you will, AI-enabling apparatuses? How do they elevate to at least one or two layers above, and get to the same ChatGPT layer, good question. Is there an acquisition that will make sense for them to accelerate it, maybe. Is there an in-house development that they can reapply from a different domain towards that, possibly. But I do suspect we'll end up with acquisitions as the arms race around the next level of cloud wars emerges, and it's going to be no longer just about the basic tooling for basic cloud-based applications, and the infrastructure, and the cost management, but rather, faster time to deliver AI in data-heavy applications. Once again, each one of those cloud suppliers, their vendor is coming with different assets, and different pros and cons. All of them will need to just elevate the level of the fight, if you will, in this case, to the AI layer. >> It's going to be very interesting, the different stacks on the data infrastructure, like I mentioned, analytics, data lake, AI, all happening. It's going to be interesting to see how this turns into this AI cloud, like data clouds, data operating systems. So, super fascinating area. Opher, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise with us. Great to see you, and congratulations on the work. I'll give you the final word here. Give a plugin for what you're looking for for startup seats, pre-seeds. What's the kind of profile that gets your attention, from a seed, pre-seed candidate or entrepreneur? >> Cool, first of all, it's my pleasure. Enjoy our chats, as always. Hopefully the next one's not going to be in nine years. As to what I'm looking for, ideally, smart data entrepreneurs, who have come from a particular domain problem, or problem domain, that they understand, they felt it in their own 10 fingers, or millions of neurons in their brains, and they figured out a way to solve it. Whether it's a data infrastructure play, a cloud infrastructure play, or a very, very smart application that takes advantage of data at scale. These are the things I'm looking for. >> One final, final question I have to ask you, because you're a seasoned entrepreneur, and now coach. What's different about the current entrepreneurial environment right now, vis-a-vis, the past decade? What's new? Is it different, highly accelerated? What advice do you give entrepreneurs out there who are putting together their plan? Obviously, a global resource pool now of engineering. It might not be yesterday's formula for success to putting a venture together to get to that product-market fit. What's new and different, and what's your advice to the folks out there about what's different about the current environment for being an entrepreneur? >> Fantastic, so I think it's a great question. So I think there's a few axes of difference, compared to, let's say, five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. First and foremost, given the amount of infrastructure out there, the amount of open-source technologies, amount of developer toolkits and frameworks, trying to develop an application, at least at the application layer, is much faster than ever. So, it's faster and cheaper, to the most part, unless you're building very fundamental, core, deep tech, where you still have a big technology challenge to deal with. And absent that, the challenge shifts more to how do you manage my resources, to product-market fit, how are you integrating the GTM lens, the go-to-market lens, as early as possible in the product-market fit cycle, such that you reach from pre-seed to seed, from seed to A, from A to B, with an optimal amount of velocity, and a minimal amount of resources. One big difference, specifically as of, let's say, beginning of this year, late last year, is that money is no longer free for entrepreneurs, which means that you need to operate and build startup in an environment with a lot more constraints. And in my mind, some of the best startups that have ever been built, and some of the big market-changing, generational-changing, if you will, technology startups, in their respective industry verticals, have actually emerged from these times. And these tend to be the smartest, best startups that emerge because they operate with a lot less money. Money is not as available for them, which means that they need to make tough decisions, and make verticals every day. What you don't need to do, you can kick the cow down the road. When you have plenty of money, and it cushions for a lot of mistakes, you don't have that cushion. And hopefully we'll end up with companies with a more agile, more, if you will, resilience, and better cultures in making those tough decisions that startups need to make every day. Which is why I'm super, super excited to see the next batch of amazing unicorns, true unicorns, not just valuation, market rising with the water type unicorns that emerged from this particular era, which we're in the beginning of. And very much enjoy working with entrepreneurs during this difficult time, the times we're in. >> The next 24 months will be the next wave, like you said, best time to do a company. Remember, Airbnb's pitch was, "We'll rent cots in apartments, and sell cereal." Boy, a lot of people passed on that deal, in that last down market, that turned out to be a game-changer. So the crazy ideas might not be that bad. So it's all about the entrepreneurs, and >> 100%. >> this is a big wave, and it's certainly happening. Opher, thank you for sharing. Obviously, data is going to change all the markets. Refactoring, security, FinTech, user experience, applications are going to be changed by data, data operating system. Thanks for coming on, and thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. >> My pleasure. Have a good one. >> Okay, more coverage for the CloudNativeSecurityCon inaugural event. Data will be the key for cybersecurity. theCUBE's coverage continues after this break. (uplifting music)

>>Welcome to the Cube's Continuing coverage of AMD's fourth generation Epic launch. I'm Dave Nicholson and I'm joining you here in our Palo Alto Studios. We have two very interesting guests to dive into some of the announcements that have been made and maybe take a look at this from an AI and ML perspective. Our first guest is Milland Doley. He's a senior director for software and solutions at amd, and we're also joined by Shamus Jones, who's a director of server engineering at Dell Technologies. Welcome gentlemen. How are you? >>Very good, thank >>You. Welcome to the Cube. So let's start out really quickly, Shamus, what, give us a thumbnail sketch of what you do at Dell. >>Yeah, so I'm the director of technical marketing engineering here at Dell, and our team really takes a look at the technical server portfolio and solutions and ensures that we can look at, you know, the performance metrics, benchmarks, and performance characteristics, so that way we can give customers a good idea of what they can expect from the server portfolio when they're looking to buy Power Edge from Dell. >>Milland, how about you? What's, what's new at a M D? What do you do there? >>Great to be here. Thank you for having me at amd, I'm the senior director of performance engineering and ISV ecosystem enablement, which is a long winter way of saying we do a lot of benchmarks, improved performance and demonstrate with wonderful partners such as Shamus and Dell, the combined leverage that AMD four generation processes and Dell systems can bring to bear on a multitude of applications across the industry spectrum. >>Shamus, talk about that relationship a little bit more. The relationship between a M D and Dell. How far back does it go? What does it look like in practical terms? >>Absolutely. So, you know, ever since AM MD reentered the server space, we've had a very close relationship. You know, it's one of those things where we are offering solutions that are out there to our customers no matter what generation A portfolio, if they're, if they're demanding either from their competitor or a m d, we offer a portfolio solutions that are out there. What we're finding is that within their generational improvements, they're just getting better and better and better. Really exciting things happening from a m D at the moment, and we're seeing that as we engineer those CPU stacks into our, our server portfolio, you know, we're really seeing unprecedented performance across the board. So excited about the, the history, you know, my team and Lin's team work very closely together, so much so that we were communicating almost on a daily basis around portfolio platforms and updates around the, the, the benchmarks testing and, and validation efforts. >>So Melind, are you happy with these PowerEdge boxes that Seamus is building to, to house, to house your baby? >>We are delighted, you know, it's hard to find stronger partners than Shamus and Dell with AMD's, second generation epic service CPUs. We already had undisputable industry performance leadership, and then with the third and now the fourth generation CPUs, we've just increased our lead with competition. We've got so many outstanding features at the platform, at the CPU level, everybody focuses on the high core counts, but there's also the DDR five, the memory, the io, and the storage subsystem. So we believe we have a fantastic performance and performance per dollar performance per what edge over competition, and we look to partners such as Dell to help us showcase that leadership. >>Well. So Shay Yeah, through Yeah, go ahead >>Dave. What, what I'd add, Dave, is that through the, the partnership that we've had, you know, we've been able to develop subsystems and platform features that historically we couldn't have really things around thermals power efficiency and, and efficiency within the platform. That means that customers can get the most out of their compute infrastructure. >>So this is gonna be a big question moving forward as next generation platforms are rolled out, there's the potential for people to have sticker shock. You talk about something that has eight or 12 cores in a, in a physical enclosure versus 96 cores, and, and I guess the, the question is, do the ROI and TCO numbers look good for someone to make that upgrade? Shamus, you wanna, you wanna hit that first or you guys are integrated? >>Absolutely, yeah, sorry. Absolutely. So we, I'll tell you what, at the moment, customers really can't afford not to upgrade at the moment, right? We've taken a look at the cost basis of keeping older infrastructure in place, let's say five or seven year old infrastructure servers that are, that are drawing more power maybe are, are poorly utilized within the infrastructure and take more and more effort and time to manage, maintain and, and really keep in production. So as customers look to upgrade or refresh their platforms, what we're finding right is that they can take a dynamic consolidation sometimes 5, 7, 8 to one consolidation depending on which platform they have as a historical and which one they're looking to upgrade to. Within AI specifically and machine learning frameworks, we're seeing really unprecedented performance. Lin's team partnered with us to deliver multiple benchmarks for the launch, some of which we're still continuing to see the goodness from things like TP C X AI as a framework, and I'm talking about here specifically the CPU U based performance. >>Even though in a lot of those AI frameworks, you would also expect to have GPUs, which all of the four platforms that we're offering on the AM MD portfolio today offer multiple G P U offerings. So we're seeing a balance between a huge amount of C P U gain and performance, as well as more and more GPU offerings within the platform. That was real, that was a real challenge for us because of the thermal challenges. I mean, you think GPUs are going up 300, 400 watt, these CPUs at 96 core are, are quite demanding thermally, but what we're able to do is through some, some unique smart cooling engineering within the, the PowerEdge portfolio, we can take a look at those platforms and make the most efficient use case by having things like telemetry within the platform so that way we can dynamically change fan speeds to get customers the best performance without throttling based on their need. >>Melin the cube was at the Supercomputing conference in Dallas this year, supercomputing conference 2022, and a lot of the discussion was around not only advances in microprocessor technology, but also advances in interconnect technology. How do you manage that sort of research partnership with Dell when you aren't strictly just focusing on the piece that you are bringing to the party? It's kind of a potluck, you know, we, we, we, we mentioned P C I E Gen five or 5.0, whatever you want to call it, new DDR storage cards, Nicks, accelerators, all of those, all of those things. How do you keep that straight when those aren't things that you actually build? >>Well, excellent question, Dave. And you know, as we are developing the next platform, obviously the, the ongoing relationship is there with Dell, but we start way before launch, right? Sometimes it's multiple years before launch. So we are not just focusing on the super high core counts at the CPU level and the platform configurations, whether it's single socket or dual socket, we are looking at it from the memory subsystem from the IO subsystem, P c i lanes for storage is a big deal, for example, in this generation. So it's really a holistic approach. And look, core counts are, you know, more important at the higher end for some customers h HPC space, some of the AI applications. But on the lower end you have database applications or some other is s v applications that care a lot about those. So it's, I guess different things matter to different folks across verticals. >>So we partnered with Dell very early in the cycle, and it's really a joint co-engineering. Shamus talked about the focus on AI with TP C X xci, I, so we set five world records in that space just on that one benchmark with AD and Dell. So fantastic kick kick off to that across a multitude of scale factors. But PPP c Xci is not just the only thing we are focusing on. We are also collaborating with Dell and des e i on some of the transformer based natural language processing models that we worked on, for example. So it's not just a steep CPU story, it's CPU platform, es subsystem software and the whole thing delivering goodness across the board to solve end user problems in AI and and other verticals. >>Yeah, the two of you are at the tip of the spear from a performance perspective. So I know it's easy to get excited about world records and, and they're, they're fantastic. I know Shamus, you know, that, you know, end user customers might, might immediately have the reaction, well, I don't need a Ferrari in my data center, or, you know, what I need is to be able to do more with less. Well, aren't we delivering that also? And you know, you imagine you milland you mentioned natural, natural language processing. Shamus, are you thinking in 2023 that a lot more enterprises are gonna be able to afford to do things like that? I mean, what are you hearing from customers on this front? >>I mean, while the adoption of the top bin CPU stack is, is definitely the exception, not the rule today we are seeing marked performance, even when we look at the mid bin CPU offerings from from a m d, those are, you know, the most common sold SKUs. And when we look at customers implementations, really what we're seeing is the fact that they're trying to make the most, not just of dollar spend, but also the whole subsystem that Melin was talking about. You know, the fact that balanced memory configs can give you marked performance improvements, not just at the CPU level, but as actually all the way through to the, to the application performance. So it's, it's trying to find the correct balance between the application needs, your budget, power draw and infrastructure within the, the data center, right? Because not only could you, you could be purchasing and, and look to deploy the most powerful systems, but if you don't have an infrastructure that's, that's got the right power, right, that's a large challenge that's happening right now and the right cooling to deal with the thermal differences of the systems, might you wanna ensure that, that you can accommodate those for not just today but in the future, right? >>So it's, it's planning that balance. >>If I may just add onto that, right? So when we launched, not just the fourth generation, but any generation in the past, there's a natural tendency to zero in on the top bin and say, wow, we've got so many cores. But as Shamus correctly said, it's not just that one core count opn, it's, it's the whole stack. And we believe with our four gen CPU processor stack, we've simplified things so much. We don't have, you know, dozens and dozens of offerings. We have a fairly simple skew stack, but we also have a very efficient skew stack. So even, even though at the top end we've got 96 scores, the thermal budget that we require is fairly reasonable. And look, with all the energy crisis going around, especially in Europe, this is a big deal. Not only do customers want performance, but they're also super focused on performance per want. And so we believe with this generation, we really delivered not just on raw performance, but also on performance per dollar and performance per one. >>Yeah. And it's not just Europe, I'm, we're, we are here in Palo Alto right now, which is in California where we all know the cost of an individual kilowatt hour of electricity because it's quite, because it's quite high. So, so thermals, power cooling, all of that, all of that goes together and that, and that drives cost. So it's a question of how much can you get done per dollar shame as you made the point that you, you're not, you don't just have a one size fits all solution that it's, that it's fit for function. I, I'm, I'm curious to hear from you from the two of you what your thoughts are from a, from a general AI and ML perspective. We're starting to see right now, if you hang out on any kind of social media, the rise of these experimental AI programs that are being presented to the public, some will write stories for you based on prom, some will create images for you. One of the more popular ones will create sort of a, your superhero alter ego for, I, I can't wait to do it, I just got the app on my phone. So those are all fun and they're trivial, but they sort of get us used to this idea that, wow, these systems can do things. They can think on their own in a certain way. W what do, what do you see the future of that looking like over the next year in terms of enterprises, what they're going to do for it with it >>Melan? Yeah, I can go first. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, >>Sure. Yeah. Good. >>So the couple of examples, Dave, that you mentioned are, I, I guess it's a blend of novelty and curiosity. You know, people using AI to write stories or poems or, you know, even carve out little jokes, check grammar and spelling very useful, but still, you know, kind of in the realm of novelty in the mainstream, in the enterprise. Look, in my opinion, AI is not just gonna be a vertical, it's gonna be a horizontal capability. We are seeing AI deployed across the board once the models have been suitably trained for disparate functions ranging from fraud detection or anomaly detection, both in the financial markets in manufacturing to things like image classification or object detection that you talked about in, in the sort of a core AI space itself, right? So we don't think of AI necessarily as a vertical, although we are showcasing it with a specific benchmark for launch, but we really look at AI emerging as a horizontal capability and frankly, companies that don't adopt AI on a massive scale run the risk of being left behind. >>Yeah, absolutely. There's an, an AI as an outcome is really something that companies, I, I think of it in the fact that they're adopting that and the frameworks that you're now seeing as the novelty pieces that Melin was talking about is, is really indicative of the under the covers activity that's been happening within infrastructures and within enterprises for the past, let's say 5, 6, 7 years, right? The fact that you have object detection within manufacturing to be able to, to be able to do defect detection within manufacturing lines. Now that can be done on edge platforms all the way at the device. So you're no longer only having to have things be done, you know, in the data center, you can bring it right out to the edge and have that high performance, you know, inferencing training models. Now, not necessarily training at the edge, but the inferencing models especially, so that way you can, you know, have more and, and better use cases for some of these, these instances things like, you know, smart cities with, with video detection. >>So that way they can see, especially during covid, we saw a lot of hospitals and a lot of customers that were using using image and, and spatial detection within their, their video feeds to be able to determine who and what employees were at risk during covid. So there's a lot of different use cases that have been coming around. I think the novelty aspect of it is really interesting and I, I know my kids, my daughters love that, that portion of it, but really what's been happening has been exciting for quite a, quite a period of time in the enterprise space. We're just now starting to actually see those come to light in more of a, a consumer relevant kind of use case. So the technology that's been developed in the data center around all of these different use cases is now starting to feed in because we do have more powerful compute at our fingertips. We do have the ability to talk more about the framework and infrastructure that's that's right out at the edge. You know, I know Dave in the past you've said things like the data center of, you know, 20 years ago is now in my hand as, as my cell phone. That's right. And, and that's, that's a fact and I'm, it's exciting to think where it's gonna be in the next 10 or 20 years. >>One terabyte baby. Yeah. One terabyte. Yeah. It's mind bo. Exactly. It's mind boggling. Yeah. And it makes me feel old. >>Yeah, >>Me too. And, and that and, and Shamus, that all sounded great. A all I want is a picture of me as a superhero though, so you guys are already way ahead of the curve, you know, with, with, with that on that note, Seamus wrap us up with, with a, with kind of a summary of the, the highlights of what we just went through in terms of the performance you're seeing out of this latest gen architecture from a md. >>Absolutely. So within the TPC xai frameworks that Melin and my team have worked together to do, you know, we're seeing unprecedented price performance. So the fact that you can get 220% uplift gen on gen for some of these benchmarks and, you know, you can have a five to one consolidation means that if you're looking to refresh platforms that are historically legacy, you can get a, a huge amount of benefit, both in reduction in the number of units that you need to deploy and the, the amount of performance that you can get per unit. You know, Melinda had mentioned earlier around CPU performance and performance per wat, specifically on the Tu socket two U platform using the fourth generation a m d Epic, you know, we're seeing a 55% higher C P U performance per wat that is that, you know, when for people who aren't necessarily looking at these statistics, every generation of servers, that that's, that is a huge jump leap forward. >>That combined with 121% higher spec scores, you know, as a benchmark, those are huge. Normally we see, let's say a 40 to 60% performance improvement on the spec benchmarks, we're seeing 121%. So while that's really impressive at the top bin, we're actually seeing, you know, large percentile improvements across the mid bins as well, you know, things in the range of like 70 to 90% performance improvements in those standard bins. So it, it's a, it's a huge performance improvement, a power efficiency, which means customers are able to save energy, space and time based on, on their deployment size. >>Thanks for that Shamus, sadly, gentlemen, our time has expired. With that, I want to thank both of you. It's a very interesting conversation. Thanks for, thanks for being with us, both of you. Thanks for joining us here on the Cube for our coverage of AMD's fourth generation Epic launch. Additional information, including white papers and benchmarks plus editorial coverage can be found on does hardware matter.com.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto Studios. Yeah, during the pandemic, we're not in person. Usually we are, but we are doing remote interviews and as a lead-up to ThoughtSpot Beyond 2020 a virtual event coming up, we got two awesome visionaries here to have a conversation around data and the role of data. Cindi Howson, who's the Chief Data Strategy Officer at ThoughtSpot and Kent Graziano, Chief Technical Evangelist at Snowflake which has been great success. Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> So Kent, >> Yeah, happy to be here. >> Dave Volante who's just a fan boy of Snowflake. I mean, he's just gushing over the success of the company. I see Frank Slootman who you've known for years. Congratulations on your success. Great stuff. >> Yeah, thank you very much. >> Well, the topic I want to get into immediately is obviously data. You know, we're seeing in the heels of Amazon reinvent conference, the role of data cloud in the cloud and also on premise, you're seeing both things going on and companies are adopting this. Now it's a do or die situation for companies to either get on board with a full on data strategy. Can you guys talk about how that move to the cloud is imperative and so important? >> Yeah, I mean, as you said, John, it's the do or die moment and we've seen even pre-pandemic, many organizations were in the process of modernizing their cloud data and analytics moving to the cloud, but COVID has really just accelerated that. The ones that innovated sooner here are performing better and the ones that are still dragging their heels, the laggards, I am not convinced they will survive. >> Kent, do you have thoughts? You guys are born in the cloud data company. I mean, you can't get any more born in the cloud than you guys. >> No, obviously I started out in the on-prem world. I've been with Snowflake for five years now, but exactly what Cindi was saying there. And I've been telling folks, as I've talked to them over the last five years, that it's things are changing. The world is changing, things are changing and this was even pre-pandemic. Things were changing faster than anyone could have imagined and the only way to really keep pace with the growth of data and the diversity of data in my mind was to go to the cloud and this concept of having a data cloud where we can easily share and govern data is the game changer, right? And making customers and organizations so much more successful by being able to do things with data that they just couldn't do in the on-prem world. The elasticity and the power in the cloud is just giving people unprecedented access to do just amazing things. >> Yeah, whether you are a startup or a big company or on-premise trying to transform with digital transformation, you're either inventing or reinventing or creating a category or redefining a category and data is going to be the critical piece of it. And the cloud can actually scale that. So I want to get your thoughts on this notion of re-invention. How does data become because you could be a category creator and redefine a category, but the people have to understand, the customers have to first understand that their problem that they have is something that can be solved with data. This is a critical moment of connection, the product market fit kind of thing, where they go, okay, I get it now. Cindi, when do they have that moment? The aha moment of, I see the problem I got to do this. >> Yeah, well, there's two things. The aha moment and, John, I have to preface this. If I may, you know, many people listening to you may not have met me or Kent until now, Kent and I go way back, both previously independent analysts but we remain with this North star of helping our customers unlock the value of data. So I don't want people to think, oh, we're pushing cloud because we work for these companies. Now, it really is a belief. You have to use this to innovate faster. So when did that aha come? It depends, for some people it's only just now staring at them and that's why there's been a lot of churn in leadership, but let's go back even a few years ago, you can take Walmart as an example as they were maybe losing to Amazon, they went to digital, they went to cloud and are now competing beautifully. So it happens at different paces. Capital One, of course, was earlier here, there's a lot of financial services, organizations that really are moving too slowly to the cloud. And you see how well Capital One is doing versus some of the others that have moved too slow. >> Well, Kent, you guys go way back. You know, you've seen the old school, old guard as Andy Jassy at Amazon calls it, but there is a real shift happening now finally. It's not just the old school data warehouse model anymore, there's new requirements and there's new benefits for being in the cloud that you don't get on-prem or with a data warehouse. You know, you've got a different kind of access to more scale, maybe another company with an API. So the idea of connecting in the cloud, cloud native is completely different. Can you share your view on how that helps people understand the cloud better? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I've certainly seen that. Like I grew up in the on-prem data warehouse world which is where Cindi and I met. And what I'm seeing now is the lines are being blurred between some of what we would have thought of as the traditional silos of data in the on-prem world. The data lake and data warehouse are foremost in my mind is with the data cloud, that line's not really there anymore. It's now about the workload and the use case than it is about, I'll say the structure of the data or the location of the data. We're able to eliminate the data silos by getting them all up into a platform like Snowflake and the form of the data is less important than it was. We can start with a very raw form and be doing data profiling and having data scientists look at it and maybe even feeding a machine learning engine in the process. And then as you discover the important bits in that data, maybe curated, some are cause we do need some data governance, we need some data quality. And that goes more into what you would think of traditionally as a data warehouse type format or a data mart format for running and supporting dashboards. But we're now able to unify all this data and really get to this concept of having a single source of truth and be agile at the same time. That's one of the things that attracted me to Snowflake out of my independent consulting world at the time to jump on board with Snowflake, I was just so amazed at what we could do in the cloud with that power and the elasticity that was unheard of and unthinkable in the on-prem world that we just can make so much more progress. And so, you know, fewer constraints, faster time to value, all kinds of things like that that just were amazing to me. >> Okay. Kent, it's been too long since we've jointly met with customers. You used dashboard, that's a dirty word. We're trying to get rid of those. We'll say cloud flying. >> Well, that's a good point. I mean, let's talk about the dashboard is what people are comfortable with. That's what they're used to, is kind of the first gen but now going beyond the traditional analytics this is where you start to see machine learning and AI become the value and that's the one thing that's constant now is okay, data's accessible. You get cloud scale, massive amounts of data. How fast can you put it to work? Sounds trivial, but it's not. What do you guys react to that comment? >> Yeah, and it's not trivial on the impact, but I would say it's become more trivial to make it happen because you have that unlimited compute or elastic compute, Snowflake separates the compute and storage. So you can do analytics that were just not possible in an on-premises world, on-premises discourages experimentation because of the high fixed costs to even get going. And with ThoughtSpot, the AI driven insights lets you find the anomalies, the correlations without a data scientist on all your data. So granular, every, you know, terabytes, just millions of records within your Snowflake data warehouse. And I think it's also combining the different workloads that in the past used to be separate, right? Kent, they would take the data out and do it on the desktop or in the data lake even, the data scientists anyway. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, well in the past the repositories themselves were even separate, right? You often have very different technologies and I've worked with customers that would have data replicated across two massive data warehouses, one for loading, one for reporting. And then they'd be extracting that very same data into Hadoop cluster to put it in the same place with the semi-structured data, so the data scientists could go at it. So they really had three copies of that same data and the amount of engineering and synchronization required to make that work so that everybody was sort of working off of the same data. And we've been able to now eliminate all of that with Snowflake to put it all in one place, just once and let everyone work on it and really democratize the access to that data in one place. So whether it is, you know, machine learning and AI being one of the really big use cases that's certainly growing now and getting to it faster, you know, driving that time to value in those insights with products like ThoughtSpot to be able to get in there and make it so much easier for professionals to look at that data and analyze that data and find those insights that they really need. >> Yeah. You know, that's a great point. You mentioned, you know, the old way of setting up a dupe cluster and all the time, you know, we all know what happened there. I mean, there was too much engineering going into setting up clusters than getting the value out of the clusters and then in comes Spark and then in comes to Amazon. Hello, you know, Goodbye Hadoop. Right, so Cloudera certainly has shifted, they merged with Hortonworks. You know, they're going back into the clouds, smart, smart move. But the data world has changed. Obviously you guys are leaders in this new data in the cloud phenomenon with new business models, new value propositions. But I got to ask you about kind of the old personnel files that are out there. You talk about people, you know, there's people's jobs, where's the DBA? I ran the data where I set up those clusters. So, you know, I hear what you're saying, Kent, but like the data administrators, do their jobs go away? So take me through the impact because this is a big challenge to how to redeploy and how to retrain or leverage the existing personnel. >> Yeah, and I've been using the agile term refactor, we have to refactor the database administrator's job to be more of an architect or a platform builder. And we're talking more now about having, you know, data coaches, data storytellers. Cindi's talking about that all the time is it's different skillsets, but folks that have been in the space for awhile are very adaptable. And if they're data experts at some level, then, you know, it's just looking at it a little differently. And in reality, when I talk to DBAs, when you look at it and say, well, where do you really get the most joy out of your work? It's delivering the value. Nobody's overly excited about backup and recovery, right? That's not where they're getting their job satisfaction from, it's getting the business access to the data. And so now with the advances in technology we're able to give them that opportunity to really become, you know, data providers and to work in partnership with the business to get the business access to the data they need from new sources, different data types, but, you know, in a more timely manner rather than having to spend 70% of their day working on really manual mundane administration just to keep the platform up and running. And we've had customers tell us that, that they've seen is, you know, 50, 60, 70, 80% reduction or more in the amount of administration necessary, which means that their staff is actually more productive... >> And that's going to be a good shift. Cindi take us through the ship because, you know, one mega trend that's happening and you see chips coming out there with more horsepower, with built-in machine learning, you're seeing this kind of new layer of democratization for insights and storytelling and analytics and then you've got this embedded model and you guys do search embedded into all your activities. You've got three layers, almost a stack of data of software, you know, built in, you know, easy to use and simple and then completely forgotten by the user because it's built into some apps somewhere, right? So you're starting to see this change. How does that affect like who works on stuff? >> Yeah, so it does shift. You have to think the analyst, we talk about the analyst of the future in a way similar to what Kent was saying with the DBAs trying to become data engineers, the analysts of the future really want to be this strategic business champions and even a research report from TDWI talked about how most feel beaten down, they can't keep up with it, but 36% would say if you freed up our time, we would become more strategic business advisors. So that's kind of the core analysts now, the embedded that you're talking about is really where data becomes a product and it's the product managers that are embedding data in these applications. But this people change management is super hard and in fact, Harvard Business Review said the lack of accounting for people change management is one of the top reasons why technology is not adopted for these frontline decision makers. We can make it easy, consumer grade, but if we're not looking at how we change these people's roles, it's still a tough hill to climb. >> Well, I got to ask you both kind of the real question that's kind of in the middle of the table here is you both have seen waves of innovation before, what's going on now? And it's pretty obvious, it's playing out in the real world right now, it's in full display as we see it with COVID and digital transformation how do people do it? What's the playbook? How do you advise folks who are saying, cause you see both sides of the table, you've been there. You now see the other sides, Snowflake and ThoughtSpot. What's the mindset, what's the playbook? What do people do? How do they get going? >> Yeah. So start small with the business outcome, with your biggest pain or your biggest opportunity, learn, figure out how you're going to change the people and then run fast, run faster than you ever have before. The rate of creative destruction has never been faster. >> Yeah. In the agile world they talk about failing fast, so exactly to Cindi's point. Things are changing so rapidly, you don't have time to sit around and mull it over for very long. And so really adopting an agile mindset is very important to being successful today. And certainly with the pandemic, we've seen, you know, many organizations come to the top and those were folks that were able to rapidly adapt. And in part that as their mindset, the willingness to adapt not to sit around and overly complicate the issue, overly discuss the issue, too many committees, all of that, but really getting into that mindset of what can we do today? What technology do we have at hand to take advantage of today to make a significant difference? And that's where, you know, Snowflake we've certainly seen an increase in adoption from many of our customers where they're actually, you know, using Snowflake more, they're creating new use cases and they're able to use that flexibility and the agility of the platform to make significant business changes in a short period of time. But back to Cindi's point, you've got to have the right culture in place, right? And the right mindset in place to even see that as a possibility. >> You know, there are three things that make business go great. You make things easy to use and simple and provide value fast is a really good formula, you guys do that. Kent, congratulations on your success at Snowflake. I know Frank Slootman is going to be speaking at the ThoughtSpot Beyond 2020. You guys had great depths of business success, your customers are voting with their wallet. ThoughtSpot, you guys are having innovative formula, doing very well as well to AI and built in search and all the greatness, the new models are here. And so congratulations. Thanks for watching theCUBE. I'm John Furrrier. To learn more aboutS Snowflake and ThoughtSpot working together, check out Beyond 2020. It's a virtual event on December 9th and 10th and you can register at thoughtspot.com/beyond2020, that's thoughtspot.com/beyond2020. I'm John Furrier from theCUBE, thanks for watching this CUBE conversation. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hey welcome back everybody jeff frick here with the cube coming to you from our palo alto studios with a cube conversation with a great influencer we haven't had him on for a while last had him on uh in may i think of 2019 mid 2019. we're excited to welcome back to the program he's kevin l jackson he is the ceo of gc globalnet kevin great to see you today hey how you doing jeff thanks for having me it's uh it's been a while but i really enjoyed it yeah i really enjoy being on thecube well thank you for uh for coming back so we've got you on to talk about citrix we had you last on we had you on a citrix synergy this year obviously covet hit all the all the events have gone virtual and digital and citrix made an interesting move they decided to kind of break their thing into three buckets kind of around the main topics that people are interested in in their world and that's cloud so they had a citrix cloud summit they had a citrix workplace summit and now they just had their last one of the three which is the citrix security summit uh just wrapped up so before we jump into that i just want to get your take how are you doing how you getting through the kind of covid madness from you know the light switch moment that we experienced in march april 2. you know now we're like seven eight months into this and it's not going to end anytime soon well you know it's it was kind of different for me because um i've been working from home and remotely since i guess 2014 being a consultant and with all my different clients i was doing a lot more traveling um but with respect to doing meetings and being on collaborative systems all day long it's sort of like uh old hat and i say welcome to my world but i find that you know society is really changing the things that you thought were necessary in business you know being physically at meetings and shaking hands that's all like you know although we don't do that anymore yeah i used to joke right when we started this year that we finally got to 2020 the year that we know everything right with the benefit of hindsight but it turned out to be the year that we actually find out that we don't know anything and everything that we thought we knew in fact is not necessarily what we thought and um we got thrown into this we got thrown into this thing and you know thankfully for you and for me we're in you know we're in the tech space we can we can go to digital we're not in the hotel business or the hospitality business or you know so many businesses that are still suffering uh greatly but we were able to make the move in i.t and and citrix is a big piece of that in terms of enabling people to support remote work they've always been in remote work but this really changed the game a lot and i think as you said before we turned on the cameras accelerated you know this digital transformation way faster than anybody planned on oh oh yeah absolutely and another one of the areas that was particularly um accelerated they sort of put the rockets on is security which i'm really happy about because of the rapid increase in the number of remote workers i mean historically companies had most of their workforce in their own buildings on on their own property and there was a small percentage that would remote work remotely right but it's completely flipped now and it flipped within a period of a week or a week and a half and many of these companies were really scrambling to make you know their entire workforce be able to communicate collaborate and just get access to information uh remotely right right well david talked about it in the security keynote you know that you know as you said when this light switch moment hit in mid-march you had to get everybody uh secure and take care of your people and get them set up but you know he talked a little bit about you know maybe there were some shortcuts taken um and now that we've been into this thing in a prolonged duration and again it's going to be going on for a while longer uh that there's really an opportunity to to make sure that you put all the proper uh systems in place and make sure that you're protecting people you're protecting the assets and you're protecting you know the jewels of the company which today are data right and data in all the systems that people are working with every single day yeah yeah absolutely they had to rapidly rethink all of the work models and this uh accelerated digital transformation and the adoption of cloud and it was just this this huge demand for remote work but it was also important to uh keep to think about the user experience the employee experience i mean they were learning new things learning new technologies trying to figure out how to how to do new things and that at the beginning of this uh trend this transition people were thinking that hey you know after a few months we'll be okay but now and it's starting to sink in that this stuff is here to stay so you have to understand that work is not a place and i think actually david said that right it's really you have to look at how the worker is delivering and contributing to the mission of the organization to the business model and you have to be able to measure the workers level of output and their accomplishment and be able to do this remotely so back to office is is not going to happen in reality so the employee experience through this digital environment this digital work space it's critical yeah i think one of the quotes he had whether i think was either this one or one of the prior ones is like back to work is not back to normal right we're not going to go back to the way that it was before but it's interesting you touched on employee experience and that's a big piece of the conversation right how do we measure output versus you know just time punching the clock how do we give people that that experience that they've come to expect with the way they interact in technology in their personal lives but there's an interesting you know kind of conflict and i think you've talked about it before between employee experience and security because those two kind of inherently are going to be always in conflict because the employee's going to want more access to more things easier to use and yet you've got to keep security baked in throughout the stack whether it's access to the systems whether it's the individual and and so there's always this built-in kind of tension between those two objectives well the tension is because of history security has always been sort of a a second thought an afterthought uh you know you said due to work oh security we'll catch up to it when we need to but now because of the importance of data and the inherently global connectivity that we have the the need for security has is paramount so in order to attract that in order to address that the existing infrastructures had this where we just bolted security on to the existing infrastructures uh this is when they when the data centers and we said well as long as it's in our data center we can control it but then we with this covet thing we'll just burst out of any data center we have to rely on cloud so this this concept of just bolting on security just doesn't work because you no longer own or control the security right so you have to look at the entire platform and have a holistic security approach and it has to go from being infrastructure-centric to data centric because that's the only way you're going to provide security to your data to those remote employees right right and there's a very significant shift we hear all the time we've got rsa uh all the time to talk about security and that's this concept of zero trust and and the idea that rather than as you said kind of the old school you put a a wall and a moat around the things that you're trying to protect right you kind of start from the perspective of i don't trust anybody i don't trust where they're coming from i don't trust their device i don't trust that they have access to those applications and i don't trust that they have access to that data and then you basically enable that on a kind of a need to know basis across all those different factors at kind of the least the least amount that they need to get their job done it's a really different kind of approach to thinking about security right and but it's a standardized approach i mean before present time you would customize security to the individual or 2d organization or component of the organization because you know you knew where they were and you would you would say well they won't accept this so we'll do that so everything was sort of piecemeal now that work is not a location you have to be much more standardized much more focused and being able to track and secure that data requires things like digital rights management and and secure browsers and some of the work that citrix has done with google has really been amazing they they looked at it from a different point of view they said okay where people are always working through the cloud in different locations from from anywhere but they all work through their browser so you know we could and i think this was something that the vice president at google said uh sunil potty i believe uh vice president of google cloud they said well we can capitalize on that interface without affecting the experience and he was talking about chrome so so citrix and and google have worked together to drive sort of an agent-less experience to order to enhance security so instead of making everything location specific or organizational specific they set a standard and they support this intent-driven security model yeah it's interesting sunil's a really sharp guy we've had him on thecube a ton of times uh over the years but there's another really interesting take on security and i want to get your your feedback on it and that's kind of this coopetation right and silicon valley is very famous for you know coopetation you might be competing tooth and nail with the company across the street at the same time you got an opportunity to partner you might share apis you know it's a really interesting thing and one of the the items that came out of the citrix show was this new thing called the workspace security alliance because what's interesting in security that even if we're competitors if you're suddenly getting a new type of threat where you're getting a new type of attack and there's a new you know kind of profile actually the industry likes to share that information to help other people in the security business as kind of you know us versus the bad guys even if we're you know competing for purchase orders we're competing you know kind of face-to-face so they announced this security alliance which is pretty interesting to basically bring in partners to support uh coopetition around the zero trust framework uh yeah absolutely this is happening across just about every industry though you're going away from uh point-to-point relationships to where you're operating and working within an ecosystem and in security just this week it's been highlighted by the uh the trick trick bot um activity this uh persistent uh malware that i guess this week is attacking um health care uh facilities the actual the u.s department of homeland security put out an alert now and this is a threat to the entire ecosystem so everyone has to work together to protect everyone's data and that improves that that is the way forward and that's really the only way to be successful so uh we have to go from this point-to-point mindset to understanding that we're all in the same boat together and in this uh alliance the workspace security alliance is an indication that citrix gets it right everyone has workers everyone's workers are remote okay and everyone has to protect their own data so why don't we work together to do that yeah that's great that's interesting i had not heard of that alert but what we are hearing a lot of um in in a lot of the interviews that we're doing is kind of a resurfacing of kind of old techniques uh that the bad guys are using to to try to get remote workers because they're not necessarily surrounded with as much security or have as much baked in in their home setup as they have in the office and apparently you know ransomware is really on the rise and the sophistication of the ransom where folks is very high and that they try to go after your backup and all in you know your replication stuff before they actually hit you up for the uh for the want for the money so it's it's there's absolutely that's right yeah go ahead i'm sorry i was just saying that's indicative of the shift that most of your workers are no longer in your facilities than now and at home where companies never really put a lot of investment into protecting that channel that data channel they didn't think they needed to right right one of the other interesting things that came up uh at the citrix event was the use of uh artificial intelligence and machine learning to basically have a dynamic environment where you're adjusting you know kind of the access levels based on the behavior of the individual so what apps are they accessing what you know are they moving stuff around are they downloading stuff and to actually kind of keep a monitor if you will to look for anomalies and behavior so even if someone is trusted to do a particular type of thing if suddenly they're you know kind of out of band for a while then you know you can flag alerts to say hey what's going on is that this person did their job change you know why are they doing things that they don't normally do maybe there's a reason maybe there isn't a reason maybe it's not them so you know i think there's so many great applications for applied machine learning and artificial intelligence and these are the types of applications where you're going to see the huge benefits come from this type of technology oh yeah absolutely i mean the citrix analytics for security is really a um security service right um that monitors the activities of of people on the internet and it this machine learning gives you or gives the service this insight no one company can monitor the entire internet and you can go anywhere on the internet so bob working together leveraging this external service you can actually have automated remediation of your users you can put this specific user security risk score so um companies and organizations can be assured that they are within their risk tolerance right right and of course the other thing you've been in the business for a while that we're seeing that we're just kind of on the cusp of right is 5g and iot so a lot more connected devices a lot more data a lot more data moving at machine speed which is really what 5g is all about it's not necessarily for having a better phone call right so we're just going to see you know kind of again this this growth in terms of attack surfaces this growth in terms of the quantity of data and the growth in terms of the the the rate of change that that data is coming in and and the scale and the speed with the old uh you know velocity and and variety and volume uh the old big data memes so again the other thing go ahead the other thing it's not just data when you have 5g the virtual machines themselves are going to be traveling over this network so it's a whole new paradigm yeah yeah so the uh once again to have you know kind of a platform approach to make sure you're applying intelligence to keep an eye on all these things from zero trust uh uh kind of baseline position right pretty damn important yeah absolutely with with edge computing the internet of things this whole infrastructure based data centric approach where you can focus on how the individual is interacting with the network is important and and uh another real important component of that is the um software-defined wide area network because people work from everywhere and you have to monitor what they're doing right right yeah it's really worked from anywhere not necessarily work from home anymore i just want to you know again you've been doing this for a while get your feedback on on the fact that this is so much of a human problem and so much of a human opportunity versus just pure technology i think it's really easy to kind of get wrapped up in the technology but i think you said before digital transformation is a cultural issue it's not a technology issue and getting people to change the way they work and to change the way they work with each other and to change what they're measuring um as you said kobe kind of accelerated that whole thing but this has always been more of a cultural challenge in a technology challenge yeah the technology in a relative sense of you is kind of easy right but it's the expectations of humans is what they're used to is what they have been told in the past is the right thing no longer is right so you have to teach you have to learn you have to accept change and not just change but rapid change and accelerated change and people just don't like change they're uncomfortable in change so another aspect of this culture is learning to be adaptable and to accept change because it's going to come whether you want it or not faster than you think as well for sure you're right well that's great so kevin i'll give i give you the final word as as you think about how things have changed and again i think i think the significant thing is that we went from you know kind of this light switch moment where it was you know emergency and and quick get everything squared away but now we're in this we're in kind of this new normal it's going to be going for a while we'll get back to some some version of a hybrid uh solution at some point and you and i will be seeing each other at trade shows at some point in time in the in the future but it's not going to go back the way that it was and people can't wait and hope that it goes back the way that it was and really need to get behind this kind of hybrid if you will work environment and helping people you know be more productive with the tools they need it always gets back to giving the right people the right information at the right time to do what they need to do so just kind of get your perspective as we you know kind of get to the end of 2020 we're going to turn the page here rapidly on 2021 and we're going to start 2021 in kind of the same place we are today well to be honest we've talked about a lot of these things but the answer to all of them is agility agility agility is the key to success this is like not locking into a single cloud you're going to have multiple clouds not locking into a single application you have multiple applications not assuming that you're always going to be working from home or working through a certain browser you have to be agile to adapt to rapid change and the organizations that recognize that and uh teach their workers teach their entire ecosystem to operate together in a rapidly changing world with agility will be successful that's a great that's a great way to leave it i saw beth comstack the former vice chair at ge give a keynote one time and one of her great lines was get comfortable with being uncomfortable and i think you nailed it right this is about agility it's about change it's we've seen it in devops where you embrace change you don't try to avoid it you know you take that really at the top level and try to architect to be successful in that environment as opposed to sticking your head in the sand and praying it doesn't absolutely all right well kevin so great to catch up i'm i'm sorry it's been as long as it's been but hopefully it'll be uh shorter uh before the next time we get to see each other yes fine thank you very much i really enjoyed it absolutely all right he's kevin l jackson i'm jeff frick you're watching thecube from our palo alto studios keep conversation we'll see you next time you

>> (upbeat music) [Narrator] From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello welcome back to theCUBE virtual coverage of AnsibleFest 2020 Virtual. We're not face to face this year. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're bringing it together remotely. We're in the Palo Alto Studios with theCUBE and we're going remote for our guests this year. And I hope you can come together online enjoy the content. Of course, go check out the events site on Demand Live. And certainly I have a lot of great content. I've got a great guest Skyla Loomis Vice president, for the Z Application Platform at IBM. Also known as IBM Z talking Mainframe. Skyla, thanks for coming on theCUBE Appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me. So, you know, I've talked many conversations about the Mainframe of being relevant and valuable in context to cloud and cloud native because if it's got a workload you've got containers and all this good stuff, you can still run anything on anything these days. By integrating it in with all this great glue layer, lack of a better word or oversimplifying it, you know, things going on. So it's really kind of cool. Plus Walter Bentley in my previous interview was talking about the success of Ansible, and IBM working together on a really killer implementation. So I want to get into that, but before that let's get into IBM Z. How did you start working with IBM Z? What's your role there? >> Yeah, so I actually just got started with Z about four years ago. I spent most of my career actually on the distributed platform, largely with data and analytics, the analytics area databases and both On-premise and Public Cloud. But I always considered myself a friend to Z. So in many of the areas that I'd worked on, we'd, I had offerings where we'd enabled it to work with COS or Linux on Z. And then I had this opportunity come up where I was able to take on the role of leading some of our really core runtimes and databases on the Z platform, IMS and z/TPF. And then recently just expanded my scope to take on CICS and a number of our other offerings related to those kind of in this whole application platform space. And I was really excited because just of how important these runtimes and this platform is to the world,really. You know, our power is two thirds of our fortune 100 clients across banking and insurance. And it's you know, some of the most powerful transaction platforms in the world. You know doing hundreds of billions of transactions a day. And you know, just something that's really exciting to be a part of and everything that it does for us. >> It's funny how distributed systems and distributed computing really enable more longevity of everything. And now with cloud, you've got new capabilities. So it's super excited. We're seeing that a big theme at AnsibleFest this idea of connecting, making things easier you know, talk about distributed computing. The cloud is one big distribute computer. So everything's kind of playing together. You have a panel discussion at AnsibleFest Virtual. Could you talk about what your topic is and share, what was some of the content in there? Content being, content as in your presentation? Not content. (laughs) >> Absolutely. Yeah, so I had the opportunity to co-host a panel with a couple of our clients. So we had Phil Allison from Black Knight and Pat Lane from Allstate and they were really joining us and talking about their experience now starting to use Ansible to manage to z/OS. So we just actually launched some content collections and helping to enable and accelerate, client's use of using Ansible to manage to z/OS back in March of this year. And we've just seen tremendous client uptake in this. And these are a couple of clients who've been working with us and, you know, getting started on the journey of now using Ansible with Z they're both you know, have it in the enterprise already working with Ansible on other platforms. And, you know, we got to talk with them about how they're bringing it into Z. What use cases they're looking at, the type of culture change, that it drives for their teams as they embark on this journey and you know where they see it going for them in the future. >> You know, this is one of the hot items this year. I know that events virtual so has a lot of content flowing around and sessions, but collections is the top story. A lot of people talking collections, collections collections, you know, integration and partnering. It hits so many things but specifically, I like this use case because you're talking about real business value. And I want to ask you specifically when you were in that use case with Ansible and Z. People are excited, it seems like it's working well. Can you talk about what problems that it solves? I mean, what was some of the drivers behind it? What were some of the results? Could you give some insight into, you know, was it a pain point? Was it an enabler? Can you just share why that was getting people are getting excited about this? >> Yeah well, certainly automation on Z, is not new, you know there's decades worth of, of automation on the platform but it's all often proprietary, you know, or bundled up like individual teams or individual people on teams have specific assets, right. That they've built and it's not shared. And it's certainly not consistent with the rest of the enterprise. And, you know, more and more, you're kind of talking about hybrid cloud. You know, we're seeing that, you know an application is not isolated to a single platform anymore right. It really expands. And so being able to leverage this common open platform to be able to manage Z in the same way that you manage the entire rest of your enterprise, whether that's Linux or Windows or network or storage or anything right. You know you can now actually bring this all together into a common automation plane in control plane to be able to manage to all of this. It's also really great from a skills perspective. So, it enables us to really be able to leverage. You know Python on the platform and that's whole ecosystem of Ansible skills that are out there and be able to now use that to work with Z. >> So it's essentially a modern abstraction layer of agility and people to work on it. (laughs) >> Yeah >> You know it's not the joke, Hey, where's that COBOL programmer. I mean, this is a serious skill gap issues though. This is what we're talking about here. You don't have to replace the, kill the old to bring in the new, this is an example of integration where it's classic abstraction layer and evolution. Is that, am I getting that right? >> Absolutely. I mean I think that Ansible's power as an orchestrator is part of why, you know, it's been so successful here because it's not trying to rip and replace and tell you that you have to rewrite anything that you already have. You know, it is that glue sort of like you used that term earlier right? It's that glue that can span you know, whether you've got rec whether you've got ACL, whether you're using z/OSMF you know, or any other kind of custom automation on the platform, you know, it works with everything and it can start to provide that transparency into it as well, and move to that, like infrastructure as code type of culture. So you can bring it into source control. You can have visibility to it as part of the Ansible automation platform and tower and those capabilities. And so you, it really becomes a part of the whole enterprise and enables you to codify a lot of that knowledge. That, you know, exists again in pockets or in individuals and make it much more accessible to anybody new who's coming to the platform. >> That's a great point, great insight.& It's worth calling out. I'm going to make a note of that and make a highlight from that insight. That was awesome. I got to ask about this notion of client uptake. You know, when you have z/OS and Ansible kind of come in together, what are the clients area? When do they get excited? When do they know that they've got to do? And what are some of the client reactions? Are they're like, wake up one day and say, "Hey, yeah I actually put Ansible and z/OS together". You know peanut butter and chocolate is (mumbles) >> Honestly >> You know, it was just one of those things where it's not obvious, right? Or is it? >> Actually I have been surprised myself at how like resoundingly positive and immediate the reactions have been, you know we have something, one of our general managers runs a general managers advisory council and at some of our top clients on the platform and you know we meet with them regularly to talk about, you know, the future direction that we're going. And we first brought this idea of Ansible managing to Z there. And literally unanimously everybody was like yes, give it to us now. (laughs) It was pretty incredible, you know? And so it's you know, we've really just seen amazing uptake. We've had over 5,000 downloads of our core collection on galaxy. And again that's just since mid to late March when we first launched. So we're really seeing tremendous excitement with it. >> You know, I want to want to talk about some of the new announcements, but you brought that up. I wanted to kind of tie into it. It is addictive when you think modernization, people success is addictive. This is another theme coming out of AnsibleFest this year is that when the sharing, the new content you know, coders content is the theme. I got to ask you because you mentioned earlier about the business value and how the clients are kind of gravitating towards it. They want it.It is addictive, contagious. In the ivory towers in the big, you know, front office, the business. It's like, we've got to make everything as a service. Right. You know, you hear that right. You know, and say, okay, okay, boss You know, Skyla, just go do it. Okay. Okay. It's so easy. You can just do it tomorrow, but to make everything as a service, you got to have the automation, right. So, you know, to bridge that gap has everything is a service whether it's mainframe. I mean okay. Mainframe is no problem. If you want to talk about observability and microservices and DevOps, eventually everything's going to be a service. You got to have the automation. Could you share your, commentary on how you view that? Because again, it's a business objective everything is a service, then you got to make it technical then you got to make it work and so on. So what's your thoughts on that? >> Absolutely. I mean, agility is a huge theme that we've been focusing on. We've been delivering a lot of capabilities around a cloud native development experience for folks working on COBOL, right. Because absolutely you know, there's a lot of languages coming to the platform. Java is incredibly powerful and it actually runs better on Z than it runs on any other platform out there. And so, you know, we're seeing a lot of clients you know, starting to, modernize and continue to evolve their applications because the platform itself is incredibly modern, right? I mean we come out with new releases, we're leading the industry in a number of areas around resiliency, in our security and all of our, you know, the face of encryption and number of things that come out with, but, you know the applications themselves are what you know, has not always kept pace with the rate of change in the industry. And so, you know, we're really trying to help enable our clients to make that leap and continue to evolve their applications in an important way, and the automation and the tools that go around it become very important. So, you know, one of the things that we're enabling is the self service, provisioning experience, right. So clients can, you know, from Open + Shift, be able to you know, say, "Hey, give me an IMS and z/OS connect stack or a kicks into DB2 stack." And that is all under the covers is going to be powered by Ansible automation. So that really, you know, you can get your system programmers and your talent out of having to do these manual tasks, right. Enable the development community. So they can use things like VS Code and Jenkins and GET Lab, and you'll have this automated CICB pipeline. And again, Ansible under the covers can be there helping to provision those test environments. You know, move the data, you know, along with the application, changes through the pipeline and really just help to support that so that, our clients can do what they need to do. >> You guys got the collections in the hub there, so automation hub, I got to ask you where do you see the future of the automating within z/OS going forward? >> Yeah, so I think, you know one of the areas that we'd like to see go is head more towards this declarative state so that you can you know, have this declarative configuration defined for your Z environment and then have Ansible really with the data and potency right. Be able to, go out and ensure that the environment is always there, and meeting those requirements. You know that's partly a culture change as well which goes along with it, but that's a key area. And then also just, you know, along with that becoming more proactive overall part of, you know, AI ops right. That's happening. And I think Ansible on the automation that we support can become you know, an integral piece of supporting that more intelligent and proactive operational direction that, you know, we're all going. >> Awesome Skyla. Great to talk to you. And so insightful, appreciate it. One final question. I want to ask you a personal question because I've been doing a lot of interviews around skill gaps and cybersecurity, and there's a lot of jobs, more job openings and there are a lot of people. And people are with COVID working at home. People are looking to get new skilled up positions, new opportunities. Again cybersecurity and spaces and event we did and want to, and for us its huge, huge openings. But for people watching who are, you know, resetting getting through this COVID want to come out on the other side there's a lot of online learning tools out there. What skill sets do you think? Cause you brought up this point about modernization and bringing new people and people as a big part of this event and the role of the people in community. What areas do you think people could really double down on? If I wanted to learn a skill. Or an area of coding and business policy or integration services, solution architects, there's a lot of different personas, but what skills can I learn? What's your advice to people out there? >> Yeah sure. I mean on the Z platform overall and skills related to Z, COBOL, right. There's, you know, like two billion lines of COBOL out there in the world. And it's certainly not going away and there's a huge need for skills. And you know, if you've got experience from other platforms, I think bringing that in, right. And really being able to kind of then bridge the two things together right. For the folks that you're working for and the enterprise we're working with you know, we actually have a bunch of education out there. You got to master the mainframe program and even a competition that goes on that's happening now, for folks who are interested in getting started at any stage, whether you're a student or later in your career, but you know learning, you know, learn a lot of those platforms you're going to be able to then have a career for life. >> Yeah. And the scale on the data, this is so much going on. It's super exciting. Thanks for sharing that. Appreciate it. Want to get that plug in there. And of course, IBM, if you learn COBOL you'll have a job forever. I mean, the mainframe's not going away. >> Absolutely. >> Skyla, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE Vice President, for the Z Application Platform and IBM, thanks for coming. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE here for AnsibleFest 2020 Virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto Studios today, talking about a pretty interesting topic. You probably haven't heard of it, but you're going to know a lot of the attributes and it's going to sound very familiar. And that's BizOps, the concept of BizOps. We've heard about DevOps and DevSecOps and a whole bunch of ops, but BizOps is really a new twist and a new way to think about this. And we're excited to have the woman who actually wrote the book on the topic. She's Laureen Knudsen. She's a Chief Transformation Officer from Broadcom. She's also the co-author of the "Modern Business Management: Creating a Built-to-Change Organization", and a founding member of the BizOps Coalition. Laureen, great to see you. >> Great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. >> Absolutely. For people that aren't familiar with BizOps, give us kind of the quick high level. What is BizOps? >> BizOps is a new way of doing business. Just like Agile changed engineering and DevOps changed how we put things into production, BizOps is changing from soup to nuts. So from concept to cash or strategy to execution, right. There's a lot of... This has been talked about for a few years now, but this is formalizing that structure. So what do you need to do to truly have your strategy linked to your customer base? And so it's creating that umbrella over all of these other ops processes that brings it all together to tie the top to the bottom. >> Right. So, DevOps, right, fundamentally changed, the way the software gets developed. There used to be waterfall, it used to be data market's development document and then a product requirements document, then you put together a plan and you code it for six months or nine months, threw it over the Wall operations, and then hopefully they delivered. That doesn't happen anymore. And that was really set forth about 20 years ago when this kind of revolution happened on the software side. So what's been happening on the business side, and why now do they need their own ops to be pulled into this process? >> Well, sort of in the same way that things happened in the late 1990s, where certain organizations started to realize that that wasn't the most efficient way to create software and came together and created the Agile Manifesto. We've realized that there's certain things in doing business that make us much more effective and efficient. Things like bringing a data stream from the top to the bottom so every level of the organization has the data they need to run their business. Having that trust run throughout the organization, having that communication and that transparency from the strategy to the execution. You know, the global economy is just in dire straits right now, and the world is moving faster than ever. And so being able to respond to that change is vital at all levels of the organization. >> So you wrote the book years ago, I'm sure you've speaking to ton of business leaders, you know, as an author of the book, what were the biggest inhibitors to kind of the adoption of these ops and there must have been something, because why then did you found this coalition? What was the, you know, kind of the founding principle behind the coalition? >> Well, a bunch of industry leaders have come together to realize that in the same way that development needed to change in the early 2000s, really business needs to change today. And to your point, we've been talking about this for a while. Different companies are doing it better than others. And the ones that are doing this well are really heads and tails succeeding above the others. So, it's not easy though. It's not easy to change an entire organization and to change the way you do business. So, the coalition is bringing together some principles and values. We've come together to talk about how we're doing business differently and what actually works. And the main things you need to focus on in order to ensure success. >> Right. But you did it loud and proud with this declarative manifesto and then an event, actually, later this month that you're going to have to really unveil the manifesto, October 15th. I think it's 9:00, or excuse me, >> 11: 00 AM Eastern, 8:00 AM Pacific. Manifesto, right? Just the word manifesto, elicits all types of, kind of emotional response and really strong declarative statement of purpose and mission. So, why the manifesto and what's really the key pieces of the manifesto? >> You know, you need the principles that go along to help you change people, process and technology. And a lot of folks are focusing only on the technology and the data that comes from that technology and all that is key and vital to the way that you run your business differently. It's not the only piece. And so we need to focus on how do we get to bring the people along with us, how do we change our processes to be more efficient and effective. And the four values and the principles that we've created as this coalition, really help companies to do that more easily and to know they're on the right track, in the same way that the Agile principles and the values that brought out in the Agile Manifesto did. >> Right. So, I have a preview version here of the values. And I think it is really important for people to stay kind of fundamental values. 'Cause then everything builds from that and if there's ever a question, you can go back to the values as of a reference point. But just to read a few of, you know, business outcomes over individual projects, trust and collaboration over siloed teams and organizations, data-driven decisions over opinions and judgment calls, and finally, learn responded pivot over following a documented plan. And that seems so, right, so simple and so foundational and so fundamental to the way business works today. But the fact that you have to put this coalition together, and the fact that you're publishing this manifesto, tells me that the adoption really isn't where it should be. And this is really a new way to try to drive the adoption of these values. >> Absolutely. I mean, everybody seems to understand that they need to focus on their customers and that they need to focus on outcomes, but you can't just take something, you know, once you have work in progress and say, well, what's the value of this one piece of work. You have to have started at the beginning to come with the right outcome you're trying to meet, and then ensure that you're doing that all along the path to creating that and to bringing that to your customer base. It's focusing on your customers and creating the trust with your customers as well as through your organization. The data is really vital. Being able to run our businesses on real data and know the reality of the situation rather than at status reports that were created by people saying, yeah, I'm done, but there's no definition of done, right? It's fundamentally changing how we do business, which sounds easy. But as we know because of the Agile transformations that we've done and DevOps transformations that we've done, it's not as easy as it sounds. >> Right. So, why not just try to include more of the business people in the DevOps process? Why the strategy to have BizOps as kind of a standalone activity and again, to have the coalition and manifesto, that means it's super important. Can't the business people participate in the DevOps, or why has that not really been effective? >> It's really a different part of the business. And BizOps is a framework that pulls together all of these other operational pieces. So, security, operations, you know, how do you get something from engineering out to your customers, really were DevOps focuses, right? So, that's great. But running your business includes a lot more than your IT organization or your engineering teams. So this really expands out and brings in all of the rest of the business for how you sell software, how you plan, how you fund your teams, how you look at the work from that high strategic level and ensuring that you create that solid pipeline of data so that you truly know the status of any strategy in your organization. I was working with one group who had really good strategies and they had really good execution and they found that they spent over $100 million annually rolling up that data to try and understand the true status of their strategies. So companies are spending and are being very inefficient in, you know, they're spending millions of dollars on trying to do this link where if you just fundamentally change the way you do business a little bit, day to day, you can have that as a natural outcome of your processes. >> Right. 'Cause you've talked about on some of this stuff about using it as a way to do prioritization and to make sure you're not spending money places that you shouldn't. Another thing that strikes me as I go through the principles are, again, things that in 2020 should not be new information, you know, frequent changes, which was not part of the old paradigm. Trust and transparency. And I think you even tied it back into one of the articles I saw, tying trust and transparency really back to employee engagement, which then drives profitability and productivity. So I wonder if you can talk about the role of trust and in your conversations with people, as you've been kind of developing this idea over the years since the book, getting leaders to, you know, to trust their people, to do what that needs to be done rather than managing tasks, you know, manage the outcome, not manage tasks. >> Right. This is really important. Having trust in your organizations, especially today when everyone's remote, right? And in almost every company in the globe right now, most of their employees are working from their houses. You can't really do command and control well when no one is sitting in your building with you. So being able to have that trust to truly trust in your employees, you know, we spend a lot of money on all of these technical folks that we hire, and then we put people in place to try and direct them what to do on a daily basis. And so having... Building that trust within your organization, and it goes both ways, right? Employees need to trust the leadership, leadership needs to trust the employees, but it's not just from the top level to the end level, right? To the team level. It's actually every level in the middle. So this is truly pulling the pieces of work that we've done over the past few years through the entire organization. It's getting rid of what we call that frozen middle, of middle management and making sure that trust is aligned in there as well. And that the communication and transparency is working through that part of the organization. >> Right. Another principle I want to highlight is talking about the role of machine learning and artificial intelligence. Clearly, we all know, right, data's exploding, et cetera, et cetera, and we want to get the data driven decisions. But what this really calls out is that there's probably more data, both in terms of frequency and complexity, than people can really sift through, in terms of finding what they should be working on and what's important and what's not, you know, the classic separating the signal from the noise. I wonder if you can speak to a little bit about the role of machine learning and artificial intelligence, as an enhancer to productivity in this BizOps world versus a threat to people's jobs. >> Absolutely. I mean, like I said already that there's some companies spending $100 million rolling up data on things that computers can do today, even without machine learning and an AI. But when we put that into place, it really doesn't replace people any more than DevOps removed people from the organization. We automated a lot in testing yet we still have test organizations. It's just a different focus and a way of doing business. And this is no different. I'm seeing a lot of companies though start to try and throw all of their data together. And I've recently started saying that they're creating data land fields when they're attempting to create data lakes. And so you really need to understand your data that you're collecting and why you're collecting it and what outcomes you're trying to get from that data so that you can understand your business and you're not just creating, to your point, more noise. >> Right. So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about the event that's coming up on the 15th, about, you know, kind of, what is the role of the coalition? How should people get involved, what's membership all about, and then what can they expect to happen on the 15th? >> We have 10 industry leaders that have come together to author the BizOps Manifesto. And it's everyone from influencers, transformation experts, CEOs of a lot of companies or of organizations. We have people like Evan Leybourn of the Business Agility Institute and Sally Elatta from AgilityHealth, who have come to help author this and are really transformational leaders across the globe. And to get involved, you can go to bizopsmanifesto.org. and you can sign the manifesto. You can align to that if, you know, if you want to bring this into your own organization, we're happy to help work with that as well. So it's a group of industry leaders who are here to help the globe get more efficient and effective in how they do business. >> It's really interesting, right. It's not really an open source project, but it is kind of a co-opetition in terms of, you know, you're reaching out to lots of different companies and lots of different leaders to participate. They may or may not be competitive, but really this is more kind of an industry, kind of productivity thing, if you will, to bring all these people together at the coalition. Would that be accurate? >> It is accurate, but we're also looking to have competitors. I mean, we've... Competitors is an interesting thing today because there's no company just uses one company software, for example, to automate all of their pieces, right? There's all of these products that have to come together and share data today in the same way that we needed to share, you know, access to software. In the past, integrations were really difficult and now, you know, everyone's got open APIs. It's a very similar thing with data today. And so we are working with our competitors and we're working with, you know, like you said, industry leaders. We have Mik Kersten from Tasktop as part of this as well. We're looking at how we can benefit the companies of the world today, much more efficiently and effectively than we have in the past. So it is a group of people who compete with each other, maybe on a daily basis, but also have the same customers and have the need to help companies today, especially in this economy with the pandemic, right. There's a lot of companies in dire straits right now and we all need to come together as business leaders to help those companies get through this time. And anything that we can do to do that is going to benefit us all in the long run. >> Right. You know, it is really interesting co-opetition, is like you say, most companies have everybody's, you know, a lot of different products and people compete as well as having API connections and having all kinds of interesting relationships. So the lines are not so clean, like they used to be. And as we've seen with DevOps, you know, significant delta in the productivity and the responsiveness and the way software is delivered. So, sounds super exciting. We'll look forward to the event on the 15th. I give you the last word. What are you looking most forward to for the big launch in a couple of weeks? >> I'm really excited for people to give us their feedback on what they think and how this benefits them. And I'm excited to help our customers and help the, you know, the big companies of the world get through these next 18 months. I think we're all in for a bit more of a struggled time, you know, at a difficult time, and anything that we can all do to work together. So I'm looking forward to working with other industry leaders on this as well, and to the benefit of, you know, the global economy. >> Right. Well, great. Well, Laureen, thank you for giving us the one on one on BizOps. Really appreciate it. And best of luck to you and good luck to you and the team on the 15th. >> Thanks so much. >> Alrighty. Thank you. All right, she's Laureen, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music begins)

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >>Hey, welcome back. You're ready, Jeffrey here with the Cuban Apollo Alto studios today, and we're excited. You know, we're slowly coming out of the, uh, out of the summer season. We're getting ready to jump back into the fall. Season, of course, is still covet. Everything is still digital. But you know, what we're seeing is a digital events allow a lot of things that you couldn't do in the physical space. Mainly get a lot more people to attend that don't have to get in airplanes and file over the country. So to preview this brand new inaugural event that's coming up in about a month, we have We have a new guest. He's Dave and Everen. He is the senior vice president of marketing. Former ran tous. Dave. Great to see you. >>Happy to be here today. Thank you. >>Yeah. So tell us about this inaugural event. You know, we did an event with Miranda's years ago. I had to look it up like 2014. 15. Open stack was hot and you guys sponsored a community event in the Bay Area because the open stack events used to move all over the country each and every year. But you guys said, and the top one here in the Bay Area. But now you're launching something brand new based on some new activity that you guys have been up to over the last several months. So let us give us give us the word. >>Yeah, absolutely. So we definitely have been organizing community events in a variety of open source communities over the years. And, you know, we saw really, really good success with with the Cube And are those events in opens tax Silicon Valley days? And, you know, with the way things have gone this year, we've really seen that virtual events could be very successful and provide a new, maybe slightly different form of engagement but still very high level of engagement for our guests and eso. We're excited to put this together and invite the entire cloud native industry to join us and learn about some of the things that Mantis has been working on in recent months. A zwelling as some of the interesting things that are going on in the Cloud native and kubernetes community >>Great. So it's the inaugural event is called Moran Sous launchpad 2020. The Wares and the Winds in September 16th. So we're about a month away and it's all online is their registration. Costars is free for the community. >>It's absolutely free. Eso everyone is welcome to attend You. Just visit Miranda's dot com and you'll see the info for registering for the event and we'd love it. We love to see you there. It's gonna be a fantastic event. We have multiple tracks catering to developers, operators, general industry. Um, you know, participants in the community and eso we'd be happy to see you on join us on and learn about some of the some of the things we're working on. >>That's awesome. So let's back up a step for people that have been paying as close attention as they might have. Right? So you guys purchase, um, assets from Docker at the end of last year, really taken over there, they're they're kind of enterprise solutions, and you've been doing some work with that. Now, what's interesting is we we cover docker con, um, A couple of months ago, a couple three months ago. Time time moves fast. They had a tremendously successful digital event. 70,000 registrants, people coming from all over the world. I think they're physical. Event used to be like four or 5000 people at the peak, maybe 6000 Really tremendous success. But a lot of that success was driven, really by the by the strength of the community. The docker community is so passionate. And what struck me about that event is this is not the first time these people get together. You know, this is not ah, once a year, kind of sharing of information and sharing ideas, but kind of the passion and and the friendships and the sharing of information is so, so good. You know, it's a super or, um, rich development community. You guys have really now taken advantage of that. But you're doing your Miranda's thing. You're bringing your own technology to it and really taking it to more of an enterprise solution. So I wonder if you can kind of walk people through the process of, you know, you have the acquisition late last year. You guys been hard at work. What are we gonna see on September 16. >>Sure, absolutely. And, you know, just thio Give credit Thio Docker for putting on an amazing event with Dr Khan this year. Uh, you know, you mentioned 70,000 registrants. That's an astounding number. And you know, it really is a testament thio. You know, the community that they've built over the years and continue to serve eso We're really, really happy for Docker as they kind of move into, you know, the next the next path in their journey and, you know, focus more on the developer oriented, um, solution and go to market. So, uh, they did a fantastic job with the event. And, you know, I think that they continue toe connect with their community throughout the year on That's part of what drives What drove so many attendees to the event assed faras our our history and progress with with Dr Enterprise eso. As you mentioned mid November last year, we did acquire Doctor Enterprise assets from Docker Inc and, um, right away we noticed tremendous synergy in our product road maps and even in the in the team's eso that came together really, really quickly and we started executing on a Siris of releases. Um that are starting Thio, you know, be introduced into the market. Um, you know, one was introduced in late May and that was the first major release of Dr Enterprise produced exclusively by more antis. And we're going to announce at the launch pad 2020 event. Our next major release of the Doctor Enterprise Technology, which will for the first time include kubernetes related in life cycle management related technology from Mirant is eso. It's a huge milestone for our company. Huge benefit Thio our customers on and the broader user community around Dr Enterprise. We're super excited. Thio provide a lot of a lot of compelling and detailed content around the new technology that will be announcing at the event. >>So I'm looking at the at the website with with the agenda and there's a little teaser here right in the middle of the spaceship Docker Enterprise Container Cloud. So, um, and I glanced into you got a great little layout, five tracks, keynote track D container track operations and I t developer track and keep track. But I did. I went ahead and clicked on the keynote track and I see the big reveal so I love the opening keynote at at 8 a.m. On the 76 on the September 16th is right. Um, I, Enel CEO who have had on many, many times, has the big reveal Docker Enterprise Container Cloud. So without stealing any thunder, uh, can you give us any any little inside inside baseball on on what people should expect or what they can get excited about for that big announcement? >>Sure, absolutely so I definitely don't want to steal any thunder from Adrian, our CEO. But you know, we did include a few Easter eggs, so to speak, in the website on Dr Enterprise. Container Cloud is absolutely the biggest story out of the bunch eso that's visible on the on the rocket ship as you noticed, and in the agenda it will be revealed during Adrian's keynote, and every every word in the product name is important, right? So Dr Enterprise, based on Dr Enterprise Platform Container Cloud and there's the new word in there really is Cloud eso. I think, um, people are going to be surprised at the groundbreaking territory that were forging with with this release along the lines of a cloud experience and what we are going to provide to not only I t operations and the Op Graders and Dev ops for cloud environment, but also for the developers and the experience that we could bring to developers As they become more dependent on kubernetes and get more hands on with kubernetes. We think that we're going thio provide ah lot of ways for them to be more empowered with kubernetes while at the same time lowering the bar, the bar or the barrier of entry for kubernetes. As many enterprises have have told us that you know kubernetes can be difficult for the broader developer community inside the organization Thio interact with right? So this is, uh, you know, a strategic underpinning of our our product strategy. And this is really the first step in a non going launch of technologies that we're going to make bigger netease easier for developing. >>I was gonna say the other Easter egg that's all over the agenda, as I'm just kind of looking through the agenda. It's kubernetes on 80 infrastructure multi cloud kubernetes Miranda's open stack on kubernetes. So Goober Netease plays a huge part and you know, we talk a lot about kubernetes at all the events that we cover. But as you said, kind of the new theme that we're hearing a little bit more Morris is the difficulty and actually managing it so looking, kind of beyond the actual technology to the operations and the execution in production. And it sounds like you guys might have a few things up your sleeve to help people be more successful in in and actually kubernetes in production. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, kubernetes is the focus of most of the companies in our space. Obviously, we think that we have some ideas for how we can, you know, really begin thio enable enable it to fulfill its promise as the operating system for the cloud eso. If we think about the ecosystem that's formed around kubernetes, uh, you know, it's it's now really being held back on Lee by adoption user adoption. And so that's where our focus in our product strategy really lives is around. How can we accelerate the move to kubernetes and accelerate the move to cloud native applications on? But in order to provide that acceleration catalyst, you need to be able to address the needs of not only the operators and make their lives easier while still giving them the tools they need for things like policy enforcement and operational insights. At the same time, Foster, you know, a grassroots, um, upswell of developer adoption within their company on bond Really help the I t. Operations team serve their customers the developers more effectively. >>Well, Dave, it sounds like a great event. We we had a great time covering those open stack events with you guys. We've covered the doctor events for years and years and years. Eso super engaged community and and thanks for, you know, inviting us back Thio to cover this inaugural event as well. So it should be terrific. Everyone just go to Miranda's dot com. The big pop up Will will jump up. You just click on the button and you can see the full agenda on get ready for about a month from now. When when the big reveal, September 16th will happen. Well, Dave, thanks for sharing this quick update with us. And I'm sure we're talking a lot more between now in, uh, in the 16 because I know there's a cube track in there, so we look forward to interview in our are our guests is part of the part of the program. >>Absolutely. Eso welcome everyone. Join us at the event and, uh, you know, stay tuned for the big reveal. >>Everybody loves a big reveal. All right, well, thanks a lot, Dave. So he's Dave. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS Public sector online brought to you by Amazon Web services. Hello and welcome back to the Cube's virtual coverage of AWS Public sector Summit online. Virtual. We're here in the Palo Alto Studios. I'm your host, John Furrier with the Cube with the quarantine crew. We got a great guest Cube alumni. Shannon Kellogg, vice president of Amazon Web Services AWS Public Policy Shannon, Great to see you. >>Hey, John, it's great to be back. I do feel like I'm a bona fide alumnus of the Cube, so thanks for having me. >>It's always great to have you on. You know, we've had many kind of conscious about policy and modernization of government. That's been the big trend kind of waves in your world. Now, with Cove in 19 you cannot ignore this. This was no longer an adjunct of physical spaces or physical realities. This reality is about virtualization, of of data, workloads, work, workforces, workplaces, workloads, work flows, you name it, it's impacted, and certainly this is a tough time for everyone to do work. More importantly, that it shows all the problems with modernization people aren't modern are really suffering. So I want to get your thoughts about as we go through this pandemic and look at stabilizing and coming out of it. A lot of reinvention and a lot of growth strategies that are changing in real time. So I want to get your thoughts on that real quick. >>Yeah, well, John, we've seen more innovation and migration to the cloud in the last few months than we have over the last few years. And, you know, things have been steady the last few years. You know, you've seen organizations continually migrate, Cloud and AWS, but organizations now accelerating, we're seeing at every level of government. We're seeing it in the education sector. We're seeing, of course, in healthcare. And so organizations are trying to transform fast. One of the first problem sets that we were tackling in the early days of the code 19 response was to work with states here in the US as they were trying to set up their unemployment response efforts. And, ah, their you know, their unemployment insurance portals in places where citizens could go in and apply for those benefits. And you had a lot of states that were dealing with some very, um, old legacy systems that had to move quickly. And we, uh, you know, partnered with many of them and in several of our providers service providers to get them set up fast. And so that was one of the first, um, uh, things that we saw, you know, during the early stages of code 19 >>one of the big means going around the Internet, Obviously past couple months, as you know, the cliche of digital transformation or directional mission and then just being celebrated by covert, kind of like, ah, wrecking ball kind of hitting that digital transformation theme. Really kind of exposing people to the reality of it has to happen faster. I want to get your thoughts on this because you published an op ed piece today around the code 19 response on how the federal government should respond to this. And it's titled Rethinking Government Services in the wake of covert 19. You really make some strong points there, and I want to get your thoughts on that. Can you give a quick highlights of the key thoughts on that? Opted? What are you trying to say there? What's the positioning. What's the message? >>Yeah, well, as I mentioned, governments at every level have already started to accelerate their digital transformation effort. And one of the things that I was trying to really emphasize in the op ed today was that there is an opportunity to continue to do that certainly in the federal government, but also at state and local levels. And, um, you know, there have to be some investment in order to continue to enable that transformation, and there has to be continued leadership and focus on it. And, of course, it doesn't end just with government digital transformation. We're seeing it in the education sector. We're seeing it in the health, their sector. And so, uh, what I am trying to emphasize now is that we've come a long way even in a few months, in helping organizations through this transformation provide better citizen services, provide emergency response efforts including, you know, as I mentioned at the state level, getting these unemployment insurance portals set up fast in the virtual call centers organized around those, uh, and certainly at the federal government. We've seen some large scale programmes rolled out without cloud computing. That would not have been successful in several cases. When you think about the billions of dollars and really trillions of dollars that's rolled out through these federal, uh, government relief efforts, uh, I t. Has been a very important part of that. And so now we need to continue to move forward and accelerate this digital transformation across the board. It we owe it, quite frankly, to citizens. And, um, you know, I think that there are a lot of lessons learned that we can draw from covered 19 responses. >>So are you making a case for Congress to allocate money for modernization of these services? >>Yeah, The good news is, John is that Congress for years in a bipartisan way, has been supporting federal I t. Modernization. And now they have an opportunity, especially as you look at what's happening out of the states and again thinking about how some of these old legacy systems really delayed or hurt some of the covered 19 response efforts. The states need funding in order to modernize some of these systems, or it's not every federal agency as the funding that they need either. And there's an opportunity for Congress also to provide some of that funding. I saw that you spoke with my colleague Matt Cornelius over at the Alliance for additional Innovation and talked a lot about the modernizing technologies on it, some of those efforts and how important it is for Congress in a bipartisan way to make sure that the mighty modernization in federal agencies fully funded. And I support that. And I know that many other not only companies but trade associations like the Alliance for Additional Innovation do as well. >>And tomorrow >>I'm and I'm talking about up Skilling, of course, which is an important part. >>Well, I mean, you look at that. Look at the attic being the systems. They're antiquated, their old, you've got unemployment. That's just new jobs need to be filled re Skilling of existing jobs because the cloud is part of it. And then just the local economy is going to be impacted. Just online education, new roles and new responsibilities. So I got to ask you with with what you're seeing, what are the lessons? Have you learned that can keep up the momentum in the government? Because I see this is an accelerant. This pandemic. What lessons? >>In addition to what I was saying earlier on the funding side, having a focus on training and upscaling and re Skilling is really critical. Um, we have a lot of work worse development programmes here at Amazon and AWS that we're rolling out and providing a service or or our public sector customers and colleagues. We're also doing a lot in terms of helping, um, various parts of the population retrain and get involved in the digital economy. One of the I think really great examples of how we've been doing that for several years are the military assistance programs that we have been involved in where we're working with partners, community college level four year education institutions, Teoh provide training and certification for workers that are coming out of the military and or their spouses. That's something that we leave were both again the community college level, but even have partnered with the federal government, the Department of Labor in some of those programs. And we have to continue to do that we and others to accelerate what we're doing in terms of the workforce development effort. Um, you know, across every level of government, right? Frankly, >>you know, I've been doing a lot of virtual cube virtual events covering them, building software for them. Um, and then this is big focus on the remote workers work from home. I get that. That's an I T kind of paradigm. Companies have a focus of their workers, but also there's a remote customer, remote prospect or remote user. So the stakeholders of all these systems now are exposed in the It's pretty obvious who's winning and who's got a good solution. So I got to ask you, What's the learnings? Are you you're seeing over the past few months around this remote worker or remote consumer, because people have to do their jobs. But they also have suppliers in respect to how the Internet has evolved the ecosystem of partners and companies and and stakeholders. There's a lot of learnings here. What would you share the past couple months? >>So John is probably obvious to you that Kobe, 19 has transformed how people are working, obviously, and that's no different here at Amazon. Many of us are working remotely and have been for several months. Certainly, we're seeing, um, a huge transformation in the public sector around remote work. The federal government is you know, for years has had initiatives around Tele work. Uh, champions, like Gerry Connolly, a U S representative from Virginia, have been very focused on trying to move the federal government in that direction. And thank goodness, because I think if if those efforts weren't already in place, you would not have seen a So many people will be able to work from home as fast as they did during covered 19. But still, there's a lot more work to do in our federal agencies to adopt. Hello, work and, um, remote working. Uh, we're seeing that at the state level. We're seeing that in educational institutions, there's a ton more work there to do. And, you know, I think there's an opportunity. Teoh continue through these digital transformation efforts, enabling remote work and tele work. But we also have to have bipartisan collaboration to continue to push forward those efforts at the federal level. >>You know, it's interesting and I want to get your reaction is you're a veteran not only of technology, but also policy. And as I was saying earlier in an interview I was doing this morning around your event, is that on the commercial side. We saw Amazon. I mean, I was a history of Amazon developers. I t enterprise, commercial and now public sector. It's the same movie. Inadequate old systems need to be modernized cloud, certainly helping there. But you look at that. Look at the flywheel of Amazon, infrastructures of service, platforms of service and sass. A lot of people in the public sector are laying down the foundational things around infrastructure, getting on auditing, compliance system that's agile and then building a platform on top for a new workload. So I got to get your reaction to the three things that we're seeing. Changing technology, changing economics and changing expectations and experiences that are happening right now at an accelerated level. All three of those theaters are exploding and change. What's your thoughts and reaction? >>Well, one of the things that I've seen over the years, as you know, you saw first movers in the cloud and you saw organizations adopt these technologies is that sometimes you know when you look at federal workers, for example, or you even look across the public sector. People were a little apprehensive sometimes adopting these new technologies and practices, because they, um you know were adverse the risk or felt that if they did, you know, service a first mover, do something bold that it might come back to potentially, um, you know, hurt them in some way in terms of the risks that they took if something went wrong. And so now, over the last several months, I've seen that apprehension in every organization that we're working with basically not be there, because people recognize that they have to move now, move quickly and adopt these new technologies. Adopt these new practices in order to do their jobs to provide. If you're in government, the right services do your citizens into the people who need those services. If you're in the private sector to move faster, to be able to provide more services more quickly to your customers, I mean, think about a company like ours where we had to scale up very, very fast. We were already scaling rapidly, but we had to scale even more wrap and and so it's really, really important. I think that, you know, we draw on these lessons over the last few months, especially in relation to the public sector, where it's okay to take a risk. It's okay to adopt new technologies and practices. And it's okay to move fast, because you know what? In a situation like over 19 sometimes you're gonna have to move very, very quickly to that remote working environment, or you're gonna have to move very quickly to set up a you know, a digital or virtual call center in order to provide basic services that people need to survive. So it's just a really interesting transformation that I'm seeing out there. >>Yeah, it was interesting out to share some commentary from myself and I want to get your reaction to that is that in the hundreds of people that I've talked to in the DC area, covering public sector of the past many years is has been this younger audience and this younger workforce. And then now look at the pandemic. You look at the impact on education, unemployment in the citizenship of in the communities, not just state, but local. You're seeing an uprising. You're seeing a silent revolution from the younger constituents was saying, you know Hey, I don't care what it takes. Just go faster. Support me. Deliver the kind of serve, Be agile I mean, they're kind of speaking Dev ops in their own way. So a silent revolution is happening and I want to get your thoughts. But I know you and I have talked about this briefly and I use the word summit revolution. But people were younger generation like What are you talking about? Manuals like shipping old procurement methods. What's the problem? What's the blocker? Why is that? There is really no answer to that. So I want to get your thoughts to that cause that's something that we're seeing in this silent revolution is emerging in this I t modernization the government because people will expect faster services. They're >>unemployed. I wanted to be a lot more of the startup mentality. And, you know, I don't think it's, ah, even age restrictive. You know, every organization that we're working with, we have workers at every in every age group, and, you know, we're seeing people just shift to this mentality of okay, I need this service now. I need to move faster, and you know, we have to get access to this remotely in order to do this or to do that. And so to me, it's not you know, necessarily, just in a certain part of our population and everybody is starting. I think that way in every organization that we're working with and they're throwing out some of the, you know, some of the, um uh, old practices or old way of thinking. I mean, I can't tell you how many state officials I've had Call me during this covered 19 response who were asking for help. Like, we've got to do this now. How can we get your help to do this now And and to me, that's just, you know, that start up mentality like we've got to figure this out. No matter if our procurement practices aren't where they should be or our systems aren't where they should be. We have to figure this out. And to me, that's sort of a startup mentality. A you know, a transformational approach that we're seeing across the board. >>I would I would agree with that. Also add that a lot of people want to have a mission and they want to get involved in public service and see a way to contribute. So I see an inward my inbound migration for people getting involved, assault on these public sector problems cause it's a societal impact, and I think you're going to start to see people realizing that they can just taken protest. They can vote, but they also get involved. And I think you're going to see developers. I think it will be a tsunami of of new creative work loads or applications coming quickly. I think that's gonna be very >>interested. John. I I couldn't agree more. I think I think, you know, we're seeing transformation not just in the public sector and how services are providing are provided, but also in our economy and how we interact with people and how we socialize. And, you know, it's just a complete transformation in different way of thinking. And organizations and individuals are out there creating right now, much of it in the cloud, trying to figure out how to innovate, trying to figure out how you know, to come up with new business models and approaches. And so it's It's very exciting, you know, to see some of that also the top there in to talk to people as they're thinking about new ways to do things, you know, it's it's unfortunately very tragic given, You know, the circumstances around Kobe 19. But when things get difficult like this and people, you know, base, uh, challenges like this, you know, they tend to and we all tend to figure out how we can help, how we can maybe think differently, how we can help with the transformation. And we're certainly seeing that in the public sector and through some of these digital transformation efforts. But to your point, we're also seeing it in the private sector. >>What's great about the economy. People solve problems together. And that's one of the best things about America and Free States nations out there. So I want to shift a little bit. As I know this is something that's close to you, your heart as well as mine. You wrote a block post this past year earlier in the year, so we're supporting veterans to get into stem programs. How are you thinking about that and getting them back into the workforce? Certainly for and after the pandemic? >>Yeah, we're really passionate about this area, John. I'm glad you asked. I mentioned a little bit before some of the training that we're doing with colleges and universities and even directly with the government for, um uh, you know, military members that are transferring out. Our folks are already veterans or their spouses. You know. It's also important to remember the families who have been there right at the side of our veterans and those that air service a providing service in the military for the country. And so we're super passionate about that at every level of Amazon and every level, certainly of AWS. We have a lot of programs across Amazon to hire veterans to train veterans, including in above basic skills as well as advanced cloud skills. And we're super excited about all of those programs. I mentioned many of those in the block bus that you're referring to, and I would encourage folks toe look on our AWS public sector blawg for more information on those efforts, we're constantly updating and providing more insight and how those programs are being conduct >>well, Shannon, one of the things that's interesting and just to kind of close out our chat here is sustainability because you look at the carbon footprint, a lot of cars on the road, you see and seeing people being happy about that. But this points to what technology can do to help. Sustainability has had some announcements here at the summit. Can you share highlights on that? >>Yeah. So we have lots going on in sustainability across Amazon. Amazon Web services, or AWS, has been a big part of that. We have, ah, long term goal of being 100% renewable and eventually carbon carbon neutral. Our initial renewable energy goal is in 2025 s. So we've been, um, you know, enabling the availability of a lot more utility scale. Renewable energy is part of that effort just across the river in Virginia. We have multiple solar projects that we've been putting in place and backing financially now for several years as part of that effort. And we're doing that across the country as well as across the world. And that's something that we believe very strongly in. And, you know, the company Amazon just announced a $2 billion climate fund last week that focuses on startups and technology, a new technologies and new companies in this space. And that is also something that we're very proud. So we believe very strongly about this area. I you have been involved for a number of years in sustainability efforts in the in the company and in particular in AWS. Tonight I have the pleasure of also serving on the American Council for Renewable Energy, which does one of the leading non profits and organizations in this space. And there's, you know, there's a lot of momentum for, you know, renewable energy. And even with some of the challenges around code 19 and the economic challenges that industry is is moving forward. And, you know, we as a company are very, very committed to enabling more renewable energy to be available, including right across the river in Virginia. >>Well, Shannon, you got your hands full as the vice president of AWS public policy in d. C. Not only do we have the pandemic, we just got them sea change of massive innovation coming a digital. I know you've got the world down. They're evolving really quickly. Congratulations. And, you know, stay with it and keep keep plugging away for that innovation strategy. Appreciate it, >>John. We appreciate it. Thanks so much for including me and AWS on the queue began during the public sector summit. >>Michael, >>always good to see >>my pleasure. Always. Great societal changes coming. Real impact. This is the focus. Digital technology's going to make a difference. Change the economics. Changing experiences and outcomes for public services. Public in societal change. Kellog Shannon Kellogg, vice President of public Policy here in the Cube. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, (upbeat music) covering HPE Discover Virtual Experience brought to you by HPE. >> Welcome back to theCUBE Coverage of HP Discover Virtual Experience. I'm John Furrier Host of theCUBES. I'm here in the Palo Alto Studios for the remote interviews, were all sheltering in place. And we have two amazing guests on a great topic Women Leaders in Technology Strategy For Growth. Rashmi Kumar, Senior Vice Chief Information Officer at HPE and Marissa Freeman, Chief Brand Officer of HPE. Welcome to theCUBE and looking forward to this great conversation. Thanks for joining. >> Thank you, John. >> Before we jump into it, can you guys explain your roles at HPE as The Chief Information Officer role is pretty well defined but it's changing these days Rashmi and as a Brand Officer with the remote workforce, Marissa, these are changing times. Can you guys take a minute to explain your role? Rashmi we'll start with you. >> Yeah, so my organization and my role is in the middle of digital transformation which has become even more critical in these days of landscape level. My team is involved in end-to-end process transformation for HPE as well as key part of the pivot for as a service and running the operations as smoothly or as well as making all 60,000 employee 20,000 partner move to work from home. We are engaged in this from later part of January, so to say then it first started in China. So the organization is supercritical for the success of HPE to keep our operations running as well as all the employees engaged in their work. >> Awesome. Marissa, your role? >> I am the Chief Brand Officer of Hewlett Packard Enterprise and my responsibility is to help tell our story to customers, prospects, analysts and press and beat the drum for our employees. So as we pivot our company and our strategy, we work with Antonio to ensure that everyone understands why HPE and how we can be your best transformation partner. >> One of the exciting things that's coming out of this new reality is that the role of work is changing as the workforce, workplace, workloads, workflows, variety of topics, but one of them is the personnel piece and you guys have Women Leaders In Technology Program is really phenomenal. Can you talk about the Mission and Vision and what are the goals? Women in Technology something this important and leadership as well? Could you guys explain the mission and vision of Women Leaders and Technology? >> Yeah, sure. So the Women Leaders in Technology established by Hewlett Packard Enterprise to connect with our customers at our annual conference who shared our common belief in inclusion and diversity, specifically advancing gender equality and empowering women with the support of the men at the workforce as well. The event is a collaborative forum for women and men allies who are committed to drive, learn and leverage best practices and technology innovations to make a difference in their businesses and communities. Our goal is to unite influential leaders from around the world with a charter to increase, attract and retain diverse talent by showcasing great contributions made by women, while their careers in STEMplusC, Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics and Computing. And I see that all our leaderships are very passionate about making sure that we get the right level of engagement, both from women and men allies to be able to advance this course at the company and with customer says, well. >> Marissa, on the leadership side we've talked about in the past you and I and you're passionate about the women leadership piece. What's your take on this? >> Well, we know that when women leaders are at a company, the company is more financially successful. We know that women lead differently and bring a unique point of view to the table. And so diversity and inclusion generally speaking, is so very important to the success of a company to the happiness and retention of their employees. So, yes, we we focus a lot on that. And I think, importantly, we think about reward, recruit and report. So it's not just something diversity inclusion is not something that we wish for an HP it's something that we action and we work towards, and it's a journey. We weren't we aren't there yet, but we are on path and it's something that we report on internally to each other, we understand exactly where we are. We recruit with purpose and intention of widening the aperture and bringing in people who are different from each other to add to the fabric of our company, and then we also reward our leaders for doing the right thing and being inclusive and hiring diverse talents. So it is very much part of our culture and our performance. >> I always ask the question because I'm male, and I wanted to rush me brought it up as well. How are the HPE male leaders impacting enhancing and participating in this strategy because it takes everyone involvement to make women in leadership successful and beyond, this is super important. Can you share your thoughts on how that's going? >> So as we form our teams as well as these specific, an employee resource group to be able to focus on younger women or women technologists. We do it alongside our men allies, at some point, technology is so critical digitalization is such an hyper-growth mode. If we need to be successful with our products and services in the marketplace, we need to have equal participation from talent from across the bodies of men and women and irrespective if I'm a woman leader or a man leader, I need to be able to tap into that talent to be able to kind of bring our products and services to our markets or run our operations well in the in the company so we we really when we strive to fulfill the causes Marissa mentioned, from a growth perspective, we are equal partner in making this a priority for the company to ensure we get women and both men and smartest men and women from across technology areas to come and work with us. >> Marissa I want to ask you before I go back to Rashmi about the whole workforce and workplace and technology, from a customer perspective, how are you guys seeing their workplace changing from a business perspective? Because you and I, again, talk about about experiences. And that's something that you really believe in having great experiences at the physical events. Now you're doing the virtual event, but your customers are also living a changing workforce and they need to equip themselves with with this how do you see the big picture there because that's a big part of you guys aligning with the customers and I won't say change the experience but align with the new expectations. These are are new things that are happening in real time. >> Part of running the brand is also understanding culture and what's around the corner. And I think that our company does that by nature anyway, because we are a technology company and we have to think about where our customers are going, where they're heading, skate to where the puck is going and meet them there. So translate approximately 50% of workers will probably not go back to the office full time. So we have a whole suite of products and services that we have been talking about very much in recent times that help everyone work from home. So many of the offerings that we have, for example, during COVID, many of our customers couldn't or wouldn't send their employees into the data centers or into their offices to work on their technology. We had ourselves service people able to help them remotely and in some cases actually show up 25,000 people around the globe there to help. In fact, that was our campaign. And it still is. And it's the theme of HPE Discover, HPE is here to help. So as your workplace changes as you go through the recovery, as you're returned to work as you continue your digital transformation, HPE is here to help with very actionable, instantaneous solutions to help with COVID and beyond. >> We've been following HPE, I've been following HP for many many years and decades and I know and for the folks watching that you guys have a really robust internal intranet and system that you guys have built out and you're really on the leading edge as well. Your own HP, equipment and technology and software always been resilient from my perspective. So Rashmi, I got to ask you, this disruption we're seeing hasn't been forecast. It's not like disaster and recovery scenarios. A hurricane is not a flood or a hurricane Sandy, like we saw in the past, this was a new kind of disruption vector not seen on cybersecurity radars. This is new, so at the end of the day, it's still a disruption. It's a challenging time but there is an opportunity for CxOs out there to look at the projects and saying, where are we exposed? Where are the gaps, and I think we're seeing new app development. We're seeing new kinds of technology projects, kind of being tweaked a little bit, some kind of being sunsetted. It's an opportunity for CxOs to really double down on this. I want to get your take on how you see the challenge being met by the customers and the tech opportunities that they can lead through this. >> Absolutely. So anything this pandemic has taught us that digitalization is our way forward, we have been engaged in the transformation for HPE on a journey for last Couple of years of entire quote to cash process as well as our supply chain and fulfillment process, entire experience for our customers has been changing as well as for our employees. So as our customers look at this pandemic and think about what they need to invest in, is the for the employees work from anywhere anytime and be available to work for and we have technologies, which enables that at the same time. We are right in the middle of providing the best ERP solutions best quote to cash type solutions and our infrastructure and capabilities power that if you take our Edge, Aruba solution, we were in the middle of powering up all the makeshift hospitals as well as the cruise ships which were transitioned as hospital to be able to provide them in internet for connectivity, if you look at the initiatives we had here in the South Bay area and on providing WiFi in the parking lot for schools so that students could complete there studies. So he has this kind of end-to-end solutions around these technologies, which could create resiliency in our customers and provide them product and solution to be able to continue their operations seamlessly even during these times. >> It's interesting, I've always loved the future of work kind of scenario and discussions. But they all kind of felt a little bit too fuzzy around just collaboration, future of work, which is cool. I'm not against that. But when you look at what we're living now, what you were just talking about is it's not its work, place, work force, work, loads, workflows. It's not just collaboration. That's just one aspect of it. I think we're seeing now this new reality is that it's going to impact the entire end-to-end as you point out. Other areas that you see are opportunities for customers. Because, we've heard DevOps has always been on the fringe of kind of the tech community, always leading edge in the cloud for the past 10 years. But now you got operations, IT operations, network operations, all these other systems that were kind of on a nice, path before disrupted. This is not just work, collaboration. It's every What's your thoughts? >> Yes, yeah, great point. So if you look at collaboration, collaboration is kind of the facade versus everything that happens behind the scenes. So if you look at the TV show, what you're seeing is the end result, but there was a huge production effort behind it, to be able to get you that content. And if you look at a particular transaction today from ERP perspective, or a customer buying a product from you, this is the facade there's a lot of stuff that goes behind it for providing our employees the right tools, keeping our networks connected, so that employees can use those to successfully as well as securely. So this time has taught us to quickly pivot and bring in some new capabilities from technology and digital capability perspective in every area of the business, starting from the facade, which is the collaboration tool, at the same time ability to run your business through these technology capabilities. And do it very securely providing connectivity from our data center to manufacturing factories, location to now employees home to our partners and as well as clouds. And that has created a very complex ecosystem of connected universe. For every company. I feel. We are a global company. So we were a little lucky in getting early warnings in January and preparing to come to where we were coming and I'm so proud of the IT team here. We did a major release of our transformation program which we call NDIT on 13th 14th 15th March right before we started sheltering in place. And there were thousands of people working globally to bring this capability for our ERP systems and it went flawlessly. And since then we have done four or five releases and the organization has been able to carry through it. >> Preparedness and resiliency, great features Marissa, back to this brand experience in your role the facade or collaboration of the user experience is the front end of the back end. So you don't have a real hyper-digital or hyper-virtual is my word for it environment where people's businesses and the business impact is going to be severely impacted because people can leave a brand. So if I'm a customer of yours, I'm like, look, I need to get busy reinventing and getting my apps meeting the expectations of the customer. So you got to bring the experience piece of it as well as at enablement. This is a new expectation radically more accelerated than it was in the past? What's your thoughts? >> Well, Antonio a couple of years ago said, the action is at the edge and the cloud is an experience, not a destination. So in order to create those very meaningful and differentiated experiences for their customers, our customers need to have one single platform that's open and secure, so that they can innovate from end to end every workflow from beginning to end so that their experiences they deliver their customers are intuitive, intelligent, differentiated. So that is what we have been working for this entire last few years is to provide that cloud experience to our customers wherever their apps and data live so that they can have the freedom to innovate across the entire estate and do it securely. That is the only way you're going to really provide these truly differentiated and insightful experiences at the edge, which is where the action is. >> Yeah, you guys are really putting out some really insight there. And I would just say that this highlights what I've always believed as making the innovation strategy concept, not just a cliche, but you if you don't have an innovation strategy with tech and people, it's going to be exposed and that table stakes are there because of the of the marketplace. If you don't deliver, the stakes are really high. And this brings back to the women leaders in IT, you guys are doing, how do people get involved? I mean, what's the take on this? You guys doing a great job. What's the process is that the adjoin you guys recruit? I mean, how does someone who's watching or participating in HPE Discover Virtual get involved? >> Let me do a quick commercial because it is HPE discover and the best way to get involved with Women Leaders in Technology is to join up register for HPE discover and join us on July 1st, Managing The Workplace in a New Normal, July 8th, Navigating Change the Mindset for Success in Turbulent Times. And the first one Leading Through Recovery with Rashmi right here. And I believe that's on the first Friday, so coming up next week. So those are three ways in to at least be able to get involved with what we're doing. But we also do throughout the year events with our customers in multiple offices around the globe, where we get together as leaders, we talk about leadership we recruit, then there's all of the other things that we support. And Rashmi maybe want to talk about that from Grace Hopper and all the way through some of the other wonderful organizations that our Women Leaders in Technology are supportive of and engaged in. Rashmi? >> Yes, absolutely. So First of all our global women leader ERG as well as there are a couple other ERGs within business unit which works diligently to create engagement for men, allies and women employees. So, my last travel before this pandemic hit and children place came in was for International Women's Day celebration in Sofia, Bulgaria. And what we did as women leaders of the company is created a competition for the location to host that event. There was an enormous amount of energy when I was in Sofia, with guest speakers with executive speakers and our main allies who were speaking at the event as well. And it was webcasted across the globe for all HPE employees to experience. There were watch parties there was enormous amount of energy going into the event. Similarly, when we participate in Grace Hopper, it's like a carnival for us, we have our boots, we do interviews, Marissa hosted a great event at Disney for our college students who were attending Grace Hopper to come experience, what HPE is all about and how dedicated we are to the cause of women and STEM and young women to showcase our leaders there and what you can be once you are at HPE. So a lot of such events also happen at various locations and as being women, we create everything fun, everything more engaging, and everybody wants to participate in these events. >> Well, certainly know you got to do it virtually >> And I think importantly John, I don't want to overlook that the Allyship. The man at HPE are very, very much a part of this and very supportive of everything that we do. It's not just all women, it is a lot of women but our men are definitely part of the part of the whole fabric of it, including Grace Hopper. >> And it's always great talent coming out of schools and seeing a lot of jobs out there right now there's new job so this brings up the shift. You look at cybersecurity and all cross in tech, it's the aperture of computer science has changed. You don't have to be a coder, you can do a lot of different things. This brings up the culture question I really love to get you guys personal opinions on this. For folks watching wants to see the new kind of Instagram picture of HPE if they want to look inside. How would you describe the culture of HPE these days? Obviously, the innovation you guys are super impressive. What's it like inside? What's it like to work there? How would you describe the culture of HPE? >> Well, it's a wonderful place to work and our culture is the primary reason why it is so, it started with Bill and Dave. And were about community. They were not about building a conglomerate. They were about building a community and that has just stayed with us throughout. Innovation is critical to us being bold, being inclusive. These are our values, but they're not just words on a page, they are actually our values, and we live them and our belief system and then they were put down on a page so that we can all look at them, recognize them, celebrate them, and it starts at the very top. Antonio has been with the company 26 years now I think it is. He is a true HPE, died in the role, Engineer himself. And we all feel really good about being here and being with each other. We have a mission and a purpose and that is to advance the way people live and work. That is why every HPE teammate gets up in the morning. That is what we do for a living. And it comes through in everything that we do. >> Rashmi? >> Yeah, I would like to add there is what Bill and Dave created for us, and the good things that is retained by HPE, as well as our ability to change and pivot. So, as you talked about John, we are an innovation company. We are a huge product and research based company. Now with as a service, though, we are also looking at how do we understand more outside in what our customers are looking for? What kind of experiences when they interact with our products, and how do we really understand it and drive alignment early on with our customers to be able to put these as a service products out to them as well as quickly learn and pivot again as needed. So the points that Marissa mentioned about take risk, be bold don't be afraid to be afraid to fail, as well as customer focus, relentless journey to ensure our customers are getting what they need, has has been kind of a new HPE culture manifesto, which is really embodied by Antonio and the leadership team which is then taken by our employees. So while we are keeping what's good from Dave Vellente, we are also augmenting it based on the changing needs of our customers and the industry that we are in where we cannot be stagnant forever. >> I think carrying that mission and spirit of Bill and Dave is great. In fact, John Chamberlin notices on his on the keynote here at Virtual Experience. He said to me privately that he has mad respect for HPE going back, he was hiring all the executives that from Bill and Dave's cloth there and brought them into Cisco now he's out helping companies and I think that is really about the community and the respect for the Individual citizenship. Those are values that I think, stand the test of time. I think that's great that you guys are keeping that going and that's awesome. And we appreciate the community support with theCUBE and collaborate. So thank you very much for that. And don't forget the innovation. I mean, Marissa go back 30 minutes you guys first coined hybrid cloud. I think that was like happening now innovation is still there. You got to be tech leaders. >> Better is yet to come Greenlake, we love our Greenlake. >> Great stuff. Thank you guys so much for this conversation. I really it was so awesome. Great insight there. Congratulations on the Women Leaders in Technology. Final question for you both complete the sentence. Women Leaders in Technology is a competitive advantage to your clients because, blank. >> Because it's one more way that they can partner with HPE to improve the way their customers live ans more. >> Rashmi, complete the sentence Women Leaders and Tech is a competitive advantage to your customers and clients because? >> We can collaborate to bring better products and services for their customers together. >> Awesome. Thank you so much, and congratulations on the Women in Technology, we'll be following it will be if you got to do the virtual events, let us know. We got the remote studio, we always love collaborating and of course, we got women Wednesdays on theCUBE every week on our site. And thanks for again, all your support and this is a great experience. Thanks for spending the time appreciate Marissa and Rashmi. >> Thank you, stay well >> Thank you. >> Stay well. >> Okay, HPE Virtual Experience. This is theCUBE HPE Discover Virtual Experience for bringing you coverage and great interviews from thought leaders, experts, community practitioners and customers. I'm John Furrier, for theCUBE Thanks for watching. (ambient music)

>> announcer: From around the globe. It's the theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage here at the DockerCon virtual headquarters, anchor desks here in the Palo Alto Studios were quarantined in this virtual event of DockerCon. I'm John Furrier, host along with Jenny Bertuccio, John Kreisa, Peter McKee, other folks who are moderating and weaving in and out of the sessions. But here we have a live sessions with Justin Graham, Vice President of the Products group at Docker. Justin, thanks for coming in DockerCon virtual '20. >> Absolutely, happy to be here from my home office in Seattle, Washington where it is almost sunny. >> You had a great backdrop traveler saying in the chat you got a bandwidth, a lot of bandwidth there. Looking good, some island. What a day for Docker global event. 77,000 people registered. It's just been an awesome party. >> It's been great, I could hardly sleep last night. I was up at 5:00 this morning. I was telling my son about it at breakfast. I interrupted his Zoom school. And he talked a little bit about it, so it's been awesome. I've been waiting for this interview slot for the most of the day. >> So yeah, I got to tell the kids to get off, download those gigabytes of new game updates and get off Netflix, I hear you. But you got good bandwidth. Let's get into it, I love your position. VP of Product at a company that's super technical, a lot of software, a lot of cloud. You've got a good view of the landscape of what the current situation is relative to the product, the deals that are going on with this new announced here, sneak Microsoft expansion, multiple clouds as well as the roadmap and community interaction. So you got a lot going on, you've got your fingers in all the action. When you get the keys to the kingdom, as we say in the product side of things, what's the story today from your perspective around DockerCon? What's the most important thing people should know about of what's going on with this new Docker? Obviously, ease of use, we've heard a lot about. What's going on? >> So I'll start with people. We are hyper focused on helping developers and development teams build and ship applications. That's what we're focused on. That's what we wake up every day thinking about. And we double click on that a minute in terms of what that means. If you think about where source control ends and having a running application on some production compute in the Cloud on the other end, there's a whole lot that needs to happen in the middle of those two things. And we hear from our development community and we see from those folks, there's a lot of complexity and choices and options and things in the middle there. And we really want to help streamline the creation of those pipelines to get those apps moving to production as fastly, as quickly as possible. >> And you can see it in some of the results and some of the sessions, one session coming up at around four, around how pipelining with Docker help increase the problem solving around curing cancer, really solving, saving people's lives to the front lines with COVID 19 to business value. So you seeing, again Docker coming back into the fold relative to the simple value proposition of making things super easy for developers, but on top of the mega trend of microservices. So, outside of some of these awesome sessions with his learning, the hardcore sessions here at DockerCon around microservices from monitoring, you name it, not a trivial thing cause you've got stateless and state, all kinds of new things are going on with multiple clouds. So not an easy-- >> No. >> road to kind of grok or understand you have to manage that. What are people paying attention to? What is happening? I think, first off I'll say, one of the things that I'm super passionate about is increasing access to technology, so the greatest and best ideas can get bubbled up to the top and expose no matter where they come from, whom they come from, et cetera. And I think one of the things that makes that harder, that makes that complex is just how much developers need to understand or even emerging developers need to understand. Just to even get started. Languages, IDEs, packaging, building where do you ship to? If you pick a certain powder end point, you have to understand networking and storage and identity models are just so much you have to absorb. So we're hyper focused on how can we make that complex super easy. And these are all the things that we get asked questions on. And we get interacted with on our public roadmap in other places to help with. So that's the biggest things that you're going to see coming out of Docker starting now and moving forward. We'll be serving that end. >> Let's talk about some of the new execution successes you guys had. Honestly, Snyk is security shifting left, that's a major, I think a killer win for Snyk. Obviously, getting access to millions of developers use Docker and vice versa. Into the shifting left, you get to security in that workflow piece. Microsoft expanding relationship's interesting as well because Microsoft's got a robust tech developer ecosystem. They have their own tools. So, you see these symbiotic relationship with Docker, again, coming into the fold where there's a lot of working together going on. Explain that meaning, what does that mean? >> So you're on the back of the refocus Docker in our hyperfocus on developers and development teams, one of the core tenants of the how. So before that was the what. This is the how we're going to go do it. Is by partnering with the ecosystem as much as possible and bringing the best of breed in front of developers in a way that they can most easily consume. So if you take the Snyk partnership that was just a match, a match made in developer dopamine as a Sean Connolly, would say. We're hyper focused on developers and development teams and Snyk is also hyperfocused on making it as easy as possible for developers and development teams to stay secure ship, fast and stay secure. So it really just matched up super well. And then if you think, "Well, how do we even get there in the first place?" Well, we launched our public roadmap a few months ago, which was a first that Docker has ever done. And one of the first things that comes onto that public roadmap is image vulnerability scanning. For Docker, at that time it was really just focused on Docker Hub in terms of how it came through the roadmap. It got up voted a bunch, there has been some interaction and then we thought, "Well, why just like checking that box isn't enough," right? It's just checking the box. What can we do that really brings sort of the promise of the Docker experience to something like this? And Sneak was an immediate thought, in that respect. And we just really got in touch with them and we just saw eye to eye almost immediately. And then off off the rest went. The second piece of it was really around, well why just do it in Docker Hub? What about Docker Desktop? It's downloaded 80,000 times a week and it's got 2.2 million active installations on a weekly basis. What about those folks? So we decided to raise the bar again and say, "Hey, let's make sure that this partnership includes "not only Docker Hub but Docker Desktop, so you'll be able, when we launch this, to scan your images locally on Docker Desktop. >> Awesome, I see getting some phone calls and then you got to hit this, hit the end button real quick. I saw that in there. I've got an interesting chat I want to just kind of lighten things up a little bit from Brian Stevenson. He says, "Justin, what glasses are those?" (Justin laughing) So he wants to know what kind of glasses you're wearing. >> They're glasses that I think signal that I turned 40 last year. >> (laughs) I'd say it's for your gaming environments, the blue light glasses. >> But I'm not going to say where they came from because it's probably not going to engender a bunch of positive good. But they're nice glasses. They help me see the computer screen and make sure that I'm not a bad fingering my CLI commands >> Well as old guys need the glasses, certainly I do. Speaking of old and young, this brought up a conversation since that came up, I'll just quickly riff into this cause I think it's interesting, Kelsey Hightower, during the innovation panel talked about how the developers and people want to just do applications, someone to get under the hood, up and down the stack. I was riffing with John Chrysler, around kind of the new generation, the kids coming in, the young guns, they all this goodness at their disposal. They didn't have to load Linux on a desktop and Rack and Stack servers all that good stuff. So it's so much more capable today. And so this speaks to the modern era and the expansion overall of opensource and the expansion of the people involved, new expectations and new experiences are required. So as a product person, how do you think about that? Because you don't want to just build for the old, you got to build for the new as well as the experience changes and expectations are different. What's your thoughts around that? >> Yeah, I think about sort of my start in this industry as a really good answer to that. I mean, I remember as a kid, I think I asked for a computer for every birthday and Christmas from when I was six, until I got one given to me by a friend's parents in 1994, on my way off to boarding school. And so it took that long just for me to get a computer into my hands. And then when I was in school there wasn't any role sort of Computer Science or coding courses until my senior year. And then I had to go to an Engineering School at Rensselaer city to sort of get that experience at the time. I mean, just to even get into this industry and learn how to code was just, I mean, so many things had to go my way. And then Microsoft hired me out of college. Another thing that sort of fell my way. So this work that we're doing is just so important because I worked hard, but I had a lot of luck. But not everybody's going to have some of that, right? Have that luck. So how can we make it just as easy as possible for folks to get started wherever you are. If you have a family and you're working another full time job, can you spend a few hours at night learning Docker? We can help you with that. Download Docker Desktop. We have tutorials, we have great docs, we have great captains who teach courses. So everything we're doing is sort of in service of that vision and that democratization of getting into the ideas. And I love what Kelsey, said in terms of, let's stop talking about the tech and let's stop talking about what folks can do with the tech. And that's very, very poignant. So we're really working on like, we'll take care of all the complexity behind the scenes and all of the VMs and the launching of containers and the network. We'll try to help take care of all that complexity behind the curtain so that you can just focus on getting your idea built as a developer. >> Yeah, and you mentioned Kelsey, again. He got a great story about his daughter and Serverless and I was joking on Twitter that his daughter convinced them that Serverless is great. Of course we know that Kelsey already loves Serverless. But he's pointing out this developer dopamine. He didn't say that's Shawn's word, but that's really what his daughter wanted to do is show her friends a website that she built, not get into, "Hey look, I just did a Kubernetes cluster." I mean it's not like... But pick your swim lane. This is what it's all about now. >> Yeah, I hope my son never has to understand what a service mesh is or proxy is. Right? >> Yeah. >> I just hope he just learn the language and just learns how to bring an idea to life and all the rest of it is just behind me here. >> When he said I had a parenting moment, I thought he's going to say something like that. Like, "Oh my kid did it." No, I had to describe whether it's a low level data structure or (laughs) just use Serverless. Shifting gears on the product roadmap for Docker, can you share how folks can learn about it and can you give some commentary on what you're thinking right now? I know you guys put on GitHub. Is there a link available-- >> Absolutely, available. Github.com/docker/roadmap. We tried to be very, very poignant about how we named that. So it was as easy as possible. We launched it a few months ago. It was a first in terms of Docker publicly sharing it's roadmap and what we're thinking and what we're working on. And you'll find very clear instructions of how to post issues and get started. What our code of conduct is. And then you can just get started and we even have a template for you to get started and submit an issue and talk to us about it. And internally my team and to many of our engineers as well, we triaged what we see changing and coming into the public roadmap two to three times a week. So for a half an hour to 45 minutes at a time. And then we're on Slack, batting around ideas that are coming in and saying how we can improve those. So for everyone out there, we really do pay attention to this very frequently. And we iterate on it and the image vulnerability scannings one of those great examples you can see some other things that we're working on up there. So I will say this though, there has been some continual asks for our Lennox version of Docker Desktop. So I will commit that, if we get 500 up votes, that we will triage and figure out how to get that done over a period of time. >> You heard 500 up votes to triage-- >> 500 >> You as get that. And is there a shipping date on that if they get the 500 up votes? >> No, no, (John laughs) you went to a shipping date yet, but it's on the public roadmap. So you'll know when we're working on it and when we're getting there. >> I want before I get into your session you had with the capital, which is a very geeky session getting under the hood, I'm more on the business side. The tail wind obviously for Docker is the micro services trend. What containers has enabled is just going to continue to get more awesome and complex but also a lot of value and agility and all the things you guys are talking about. So that obviously is going to be a tailwind for you. But as you guys look at that piece of it, specifically the business value, how is Docker positioned? Because a of the use cases are, no one really starts out microservices from a clean sheet of paper that we heard some talks here DockerCon where the financial services company said, "Hey, it's simple stack," and then it became feature creep, which became a monolith. And then they had to move that technical debt into a much more polyglot system where you have multiple tools and there's a lot of things going on, that seems to be the trend that also speaks to the legacy environment that most enterprises have. Could you share your view on how Docker fits into those worlds? Because you're either coming from a simple stack that more often and got successful and you're going to go microservice or you have legacy, then you want to decouple and make it highly cohesive. So your thoughts. >> So the simple answer is, Docker can help on both ends. So I think as these new technologies sort of gain momentum and get talked about a bunch and sort of get rapid adoption and rapid hype, then they're almost conceived to be this wall that builds up where people start to think, "Well, maybe my thing isn't modern enough," or, "Maybe my team's not modern enough," or, "Maybe I'm not moderate enough to use this." So there's too much of a hurdle to get over. And that we don't see that at all. There's always a way to get started. Even thinking about the other thing, and I'd say, one we can help, let us know, ping us, we'll be happy to chat with you, but start small, right? If you're in a large enterprise and you have a long legacy stack and a bunch of legacy apps, think about the smallest thing that you can start with, then you can begin to break off of that. And as a proof of concept even by just downloading Docker Desktop and visual studio code and just getting started with breaking off a small piece, and improve the model. And I think that's where Docker can be really helpful introducing you to this paradigm and pattern shift of containers and containerized packaging and microservices and production run time. >> And certainly any company coming out of his post pandemic is going to need to have a growth strategy that's going to be based on apps that's going to be based on the projects that they're currently working, double down on those and kind of sunset the ones that aren't or fix the legacy seems to be a major Taylor. >> The second bit is, as a company, you're going to also have to start something new or many new things to innovate for your customers and keep up with the times and the latest technology. So start to think about how you can ensure that the new things that you're doing are starting off in a containerized way using Docker to help you get there. If the legacy pieces may not be able to move as quickly or there's more required there, just think about the new things you're going to do and start new in that respect. >> Well, let's bring some customer scenarios to the table. Pretend I'm a customer, we're talking, "Hey Justin, you're looking good. "Hey, I love Docker. I love the polyglot, blah, blah, blah." Hey, you know what? And I want to get your response to this. And I say, "DevOps won't work here where we are, "it's just not a good fit." What do you say when you hear things like that? >> See my previous comment about the wall that builds up. So the answer is, and I remember hearing this by the way, about Agile years ago, when Agile development and Agile processes began to come in and take hold and take over for sort of waterfall processes, right? What I hear customers really saying is, "Man, this is really hard, this is super hard. "I don't know where to start, it's very hard. "How can you help? "Help me figure out where to start." And that is one of the things that we're very very very clearly working on. So first off we just, our docs team who do great work, just made an unbelievable update to the Docker documentation homepage, docs.docker.com. Before you were sort of met with a wall of text in a long left navigation that if you didn't know what you were doing, I would know where to go. Now you can go there and there's six very clear paths for you to follow. Do you want to get started? Are you looking for a product manual, et cetera. So if you're just looking for where to get started, just click on that. That'll give you a great start. when you download Docker Desktop, there's now an onboarding tutorial that will walk you through getting your first application started. So there are ways for you to help and get started. And then we have a great group of Docker captains Bret Fisher, many others who are also instructors, we can absolutely put you in touch with them or some online coursework that they deliver as well. So there's many resources available to you. Let us help you just get over the hump of getting started. >> And Jenny, and on the community side and Peter McKee, we're talking about some libraries are coming out, some educational stuff's coming around the corner as well. So we'll keep an eye out for that. Question for you, a personal question, can you share a proud devOps Docker moment that you could share with the audience? >> Oh wow, so many to go through. So I think a few things come to mind over the past few weeks. So for everyone that has no... we launched some exciting new pricing plans last week for Docker. So you can now get quite a bit of value for $7 a month in our pro plan. But the amount of work that the team had to do to get there was just an incredible thing. And just watching how the team have a team operated and how the team got there and just how they were turning on a dime with decisions that were being made. And I'm seeing the same thing through some of our teams that are building the image vulnerability scanning feature. I won't quote the number, but there's a very small number of people working on that feature that are creating an incredible thing for customers. So it's just how we think every day. Because we're actually almost trying to productize how we work, right? And bring that to the customer. >> Awesome, and your take on DockerCon virtual, obviously, we're all in this situation. The content's been rich on the site. You would just on the captains program earlier in the day. >> Yes. >> Doctor kept Brett's captain taught like a marathon session. Did they grill you hard or what was your experience on the captain's feed? >> I love the captain's feed. We did a run of that for the Docker birthday a few months ago with my co-worker Justin Cormack. So yes, there are two Justin's that work at Docker. I got the internal Justin Slack handle. He got the external, the community Slack Justin handle. So we split the goods there. But lots of questions about how to get started. I mean, I think there was one really good question there. Someone was saying asking for advice on just how to get started as someone who wants to be a new engineer or get into coding. And I think we're seeing a lot of this. I even have a good friend whose wife was a very successful and still is a very successful person in the marketing field. And is learning how to code and wants to do a career switch. Right? >> Yeah. >> So it's really exciting. >> DockerCon is virtual. We heard Kelsey Hightower, we heard James Governor, talk about events going to be more about group conventions getting together, whether they're small, medium, or large. What's your take on DockerCon virtual, or in general, what makes a great conference these days? Cause we'll soon get back to the physical space. But I think the genie's out of the bottle, that digital space has no boundaries. It's limitless and creativity. We're just scratching the surface. What makes a great event in your mind? >> I think so, I go back to thinking, I've probably flown 600,000 miles in the past three years. Lots of time away from my family, lots of time away from my son. And now that we're all in this situation together in terms of being sheltered in place in the global pandemic and we're executing an event that has 10 times more participation from attendees than we had in our in person event. And I sat back in my chair this morning and I was thinking, "Did I really need to fly that 600,000 miles "in the past three years?" And I think James Governor, brought it up earlier. I really think the world has changed underneath us. It's just going to be really hard to... This will all be over eventually. Hopefully we'll get to a vaccine really soon. And then folks will start to feel like world's a little bit more back to "normal" but man, I'm going to really have to ask myself like, "Do I really need to get on this airplane "and fly wherever it is? "Why can't I just do it from my home office "and give my son breakfast and take them to school, "and then see them in the evening?" Plus second, like I mentioned before in terms of access, no in person event will be able to compete ever with the type of access that this type of a platform provides. There just aren't like fairly or unfairly, lots of people just cannot travel to certain places. For lots of different reasons, monetary probably being primary. And it's not their job to figure out how to get to the thing. It's our job to figure out how to get the tech and the access and the learning to them. Right? >> Yeah (murmurs) >> So I'm super committed to that and I'll be asking the question continually. I think my internal colleagues are probably laughing now because I've been beating the drum of like, "Why do we ever have to do anything in person anymore?" Like, "Let's expand the access." >> Yeah, expand the access. And what's great too is the CEO was in multiple chat streams. So you could literally, it's almost beam in there like Star Trek. And just you can be more places that doesn't require that spatial limitations. >> Yeah. >> I think face to face will be good intimate more a party-like environment, more bonding or where social face to face is more impactful. >> We do have to figure out how to have the attendee party virtually. So, we have to figure out how to get some great electronic, or band, or something to play a virtual show, and like what the ship everybody a beverage, I don't now. >> We'll co-create with Dopper theCUBE pub and have beer for everybody if need they at some point (laughs). Justin, great insight. Thank you for coming on and sharing the roadmap update on the product and your insights into the tech as well as events. Appreciate it, thank you. >> Absolutely, thank you so much. And thanks everyone for attending. >> Congratulations, on all the work on the products Docker going to the next level. Microservices is a tailwind, but it's about productivity, simplicity. Justin, the product, head of the product for Docker, VP of product on here theCUBE, DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier. Stay with us for more continuous coverage on theCUBE track we're on now, we're streaming live. These sessions are immediately on demand. Check out the calendar. There's 43 sessions submitted by the community. Jump in there, there are own container of content. Get in there, pun intended, and chat, and meet people, and learn. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more after this break. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation everyone welcome to this cube conversation here in the cubes Palo Alto Studios we're here with the quarantine crew I'm John for your host we've got a great guest John Madison CMO an EVP of products of Fortinet and today more than ever in this changing landscape accelerating faster and faster certainly as this covin 19 crisis has forced business to realize a lot of the at scale problems are at hand and a lot of things are exposed in terms of problems and opportunities you have to take care of one of them security John thanks for coming on cube and looking forward to chatting about your recent event you had this week and also the updates at Florida thanks for joining me yeah it's great to be here John so more than ever the innovation strategies are not just talking points anymore in board meetings or companies there's they actually have to come out of this pandemic and operate through it with real innovation with actionable outcomes they've got to get their house in order you're seeing projects really focusing in on the at scale problems which is essentially keep the network's run and keep the sick the security fabric in place this is critical path stuff but the innovation coming out of it has to be a growth play for companies and this has been a big thing so you guys are in the middle of it we've chatted about all the four to guard stuff and all this you're seeing all the traffic you're seeing all the all the impact this work at home has forced companies to not only deal to new realities but it's exposed some things they need to double down on and things they need to either get rid of or fix fast what's your take on all this yeah you know I think it took a lot of people by surprise and the first thing I would like to do is you know spank our employees our customers and partners for the work they've done in the last six to seven weeks now what was happening was a lot of customers had built their work from home programs around a certain percentage 5% 10% 15% and that's what they scaled it for then all of a sudden you know everybody had to work from home and so you went from maybe a thousand people to 10,000 or 5,000 to 50,000 they had to scale very quickly because this had to be implemented in hours and days not weeks and months luckily our systems are able to gaile very quickly we can scale using a security processing units which offload the CPU and allow a lot of users simultaneously to access through VPN SSL VPN IPSec VPN and then we have an implementation at home ranging from a very simple Microsoft Wyant all the way to our clients all the way to even off Buda gate firewalls at home so we really did work very hard to make sure that our customers could maintain their business proposition during these times you know I want to get those work at home and I think it's a little big Sdn story and you guys have been on for a long time I mean we've talked with your you and your folks many times around st Wynn and what it means to to have that in place but this work at home those numbers are off the charts strange and this is disruption this was an unforeseen disruption it's not like a hurricane or flood this is real and we've also talked with you guys and your team around the endpoint you know the edge of the network that's the explosion of the billions of edges this is just an industry kind of inside baseball conversation and then also the immersion of the lifestyle we now live in so you have a world where it was inside baseball for this industry now every company and everyone's feeling it this is a huge issue I'm at home I got to protect myself I got data I gotta have a VPN I mean this is a reality that just wasn't seen I mean what do you guys are what are you guys doing in this area well I think it changes that this long-term architect and so you know the past we talked about there being millions of edges and people go how many billions of edges and what's happened is if you're working from home that's an edge and so the long term architecture means that companies need to take care of where their network edges are now the SEM at home they had them at the branch office they have them at the end of prize and the data center in the cloud then we need to decide know where to apply the security is it at the endpoint is it at the edges is the data center or bout an S T one is absolutely essential because every edge you'll have whether that were home now whether it be in your data center or eCampus on the cloud needs that st-1 technology and make sure you can guide the applications in a secure manner what's interesting is I actually deployed st-1 in my home here I've got two ISP connections one week I'm casting off with AT&T now that may be overkill right now for most people about putting st-1 in their homes but I think long-term homes are gonna be part of the enterprise network it's just another eight take a minute to explain the SD win I would call it the this is a mill especially this is not your grandfather's st win I mean it's changed st when is the internet I mean basically at home what does that mean if users don't know care what the products are at the end of the day they're working at home so kind of SD win has taken on a new broader scope if you will it's not just the classic SD win or is it can you take us through I mean and this is a category that's becoming much broader what's your what's your nails is there yeah again I'm not saying that you know consumers are gonna be putting SD wine in the homes right now but if I'm an executive and I rely on my communication out there are lots of meetings during the day work from home I want it to be as reliable as possible so if my one is pee goes down and I can't get on the internet that's an issue if I have to ISPs I have much higher availability but more importantly us you and I can guide the applications where I want when they want I can make sure you know my normal home traffic goes off certain direction the certain on a VLAN and segmentation policy whereas my war can be completely set out so again I you know I think SDRAM technology is important for the home long term is important for the branch for the enterprise and the data center and Earls St ones built into all up all our forty gates have sp1 you just switch it on we think it's a four essential technology going forward to drive that cloud on-ramp real quick follow-up on that for the folks in the enterprise I see the enterprise will make it easier for their customers their users who are at home so it feels consumer II invisible if you will I think that's the short-term what's what are what are you seeing your customers and prospective customers thinking when they come back or as they operate now in this new reality when they say you know what we really miss forecasted this now they have to get back to business what are they gonna do do they do more sta on I mean what's the architecture how does that get done what's the conversation like you know as this evolved for the next it's gonna slowly open up it still it's going to be a new reality for at least 12 months what's the conversation with the customer right now when it comes to going in and taking care of this so it doesn't happen again yeah what I'm doing actually actually what I'm doing a lot of virtual ABC's obviously we usually have 200 our customers that come to our corporate quarters or executive briefings and I'm doing actually more virtually and a lot of the opening conversations is they don't think they're gonna go completely Hunter's under percent back to where they were there's always going to be now a fraction of work-from-home people they may move around some of their physical location so as I said the ST when is that piece on the edge whether it be your home ranch campus or data centers gonna be there to guide the applications guide the users and devices to the right applications of wherever they may be as it could be in the cloud of communion data center it could be anywhere and then the key conversation thereafter for customers long-term architecture wise is where do I apply my security stack and the security spat consists of basic things like antivirus all right yes more detection capabilities even even response to Isis given that stack how much do I put in the edge how much do I put in my endpoint how much do I put my branch how much I put in my campus data center and cloud and then how do I maintain a policy a single policy across all of those and then now and again maybe I have to move that stack cross so that's going to be the key long term architecture question for enterprises as they move to a slightly different composition of workforce in different locations is hey I've got to make sure every edge that I have I identify and I secure when SP ran and then how do I apply the security stack cross all the diff tell great insight thanks for sharing that I want to get your take on now speaking of working at home you're also the CMO as well as the EVP of products which is a unique job because you can talk about any think when the cube we love it you had an event accelerate 2020 the folks watching go to the hashtag on Twitter hashtag accelerate 20 that's the hash tag you'll see a lot of the the pictures of the slides and some commentary I was laying down some tweets all the analysts were as well what are some of the highlights for you is a great presentation by the CEO you gave a talk and there's a lot of breakouts you had to do a digital event because you couldn't hold the physical event so you kind of had a shelter-in-place kind of and how did it go and what are some of the highlights yeah on the one side I was a bit sad you know we had or what we call accelerates arrange for this year in Barcelona and New York Mexico and San Jose we had to cancel war for them and I'm very quickly spin up a digital event a virtual event and you know we end up there's some initial targets around you know you know each of our physical events we get between two and three thousand and so we're thinking you know if we got to ten thousand this would be great we actually ended up with thirty thirty-two thousand or something like that registered and actually the percentage that showed off was even higher so we had over 20,000 people actually come online and go through our keynotes we built it so you go through the keynotes then you can go off to the painting what we call the breakouts for more detail we did verticals oh it did more technology sessions and so it's great and you know we tried our best to answer the questions online because these things are on demand we had three we had one for the u.s. one premiere and won't write back and so there was times but to get that sort of exposure to me is amazing twenty thousand people on there listening and it connects into another subject which is education and fun yet for some time as invested I would say you know my CEO says but I'll invest a bit more in education versus the marketing advertising budget now go okay okay that's that hey we'll work on that but education for us we announced a few weeks ago that education is now training is free for customers for everybody and we'd also been you know leading the way by providing free training for our partners now it's completely free for everybody we have something called the network security expert which goes from one to eight one and two of that are actually open to the public right now and if I go to the end of last year we had about two to three thousand people maybe a week come on and do the training obviously majority doing the NSC one courses you get further through to eight it's more technical last week we had over eighty thousand people we just think about those numbers incredible because people you know having more time let's do the training and finding is as they're doing this training going up the stack more quickly and they're able to implement their tools more quickly so training for us is just exploded off the map and I and there's a new reality of all the unemployment and also people are at home and there's a lot of job about the skill gap before in another cube conversation it's it's more apparent than ever and why not make it free give people some hope give them some tools to be successful there's demand yes and it's not you know it's not just them you know IT professionals are Ennis e1 is a foundational course and you'll see kids and students and universities doing it and so Ben Mars granddad's dad's doing it so we we're getting all sorts of comments and social media about the training you know our foundation great stuff has a great we'll put a plug on that when should we get that amplified for its really good stuff I got to ask you about the event one of the things I really like about the presentation was from your CEO and you gave one as well was the clarity around the vision of security and a couple of things that were notable to me was the confluence of the collision between networking and security and at the intersection of those two forces you have an accelerated integrated policy dynamic to me this is the heart of DevOps of what used to be in cloud being kind of applied to security you have data you got all kinds of new things emerging new patterns new signals that's security so you got to be you got to be fast you got to identify things so you guys are in this business that's one force and the other one was the billions of edges and this idea that there's no perimeter so it's everything's immersive so illustrate some points of validation on that from your standpoint is that how you guys are seeing it unfold in the future is that happening now can you give us a feeling for whether where we are and that those those kind of paradigms yeah good point so I think it's been happening it's happening now has been happening the future you know if you look at networking and our CEO Enzi talked about this and that networking hasn't really cheer outing and switching we go back to 2000 we had 100 mega under megabit now you have formed a gigabit but the basic function we haven't really changed that much securities different we've gone from a firewall and we add VPN then we at next-gen firewall then we had SSL inspection now we've added sd1 and so this collisions kind of an equal in that you know networking's sped ahead and firewalling is stayed behind because it's just got too many applications on that so the basic principle premise of the company of putting net is to build and bring that together so it's best of all accelerate the basic security network security functions so you can consolidate multiple functions on one system and then bring networking and security together a really good example of security where or nexium firewall where you can accelerate and so our security processing units and my analogy simple analogy is GPUs inside games where their GPU offloads CPU to allow rendering to happen very quick it's the same for us RSP use way of a network SPU and we have a Content SPU which all flows the CPU to allow a security and networking do it be accelerated work now coming to your second point about the perimeter I I'm not quite sure whether the perimeters disappear and the reason I say that is customer still goes they have firewalls on the front of the networks they have endpoint protection they have protection in the cloud so it's not that the perimeters disappeared it's just but much larger and so now the perimeters sitting across all your infrastructure your endpoints your in factories you got IOT devices you've got workloads in different powered and that means you need to look very carefully at those and give visibility initially and then apply the control that control maybe it's a ten-point security it may be SD mine at the edge it may be a compliance template in the cloud but you need visibility of all those edges which have been created with the perimeters reading across the image it's interesting you bring up a good point we always have kind of debates over beers on this on this topic you know the old model was mote you know get the castle and the gate but here the perimeter of the edge if you believe there's an edge and I do believe you find it perfectly the edge is a perimeter it's an endpoint right so it's a door into the internet so are the network so is the perimeter just an end adorn there's more doors right so or service yeah just think about it the castle would did multiple doors is the back everyone's the door there's this dozle someday and you have to define those H's and have visibility of them and that's why things like network access control know for you know zero trust network access is really important making sure you kind of look at the edge inside your way and so your data center and then it's like you powd what workloads are spinning off and what's the configuration and what's there what's from a data perspective right your recommendation and I'm a customer looking at my network I got compute I got edge devices and users I realized there's a billions of edges on my network now and the realities hit me I wasn't really being proactive on investing what do I do what's the PlayBook for me as I start to rethink that and what do I put into place how do I get going now I got to rethink it I now recognize I got full validation I got to manage this I got to do something what's your recommendation to me if I'm a customer the key to me is and I've had this conversation now for the last five years and it's getting louder and louder and that is I suppose I spend a lot of money on point solution point but even end point may have five point products on there and so they're getting to the conclusion it's just too hard to manage I can't find all the right people I get so many alerts from so many security systems I can't work out what's going on and the conversation now is how do I deploy a platform we call it the security fabric now I don't deploy that fabric across my network I'm not saying you should go from 30 vendors to one vendor that would be nice of course but I what I'm saying as you go from 30 vendors down to maybe five or six platform the platform's perform multiple functions it could be they're out there you attach a platform a designer platform just birth protector or a particular organization or part of the network and so the platform allows you then to build automation and the automation allows you to see things more quickly and react to things more quickly and do things without manual intervention the platform approach it's absolutely starting to resonate yes you've still got very very large customers who put everything into segments of a C's Exedra book most customers now moving towards a yeah I think you know as you see and again back to that collision with the end of the intersection we have integrated policies if you're gonna do any integration which is the data problem so we talk about all the time to a lot of different tools can create silos and there's a use case for that but also creates problematic situations I mean a platform gives you a much more robust capability to be adaptive to be real time to program and automate yeah it's it's it's an issue if you've got 30 vendors and just be honest it's also an issue in the industry so I mean networking the story kind of worked out how to work together you can use the same different vendor switches and routers and they roughly work together with cybersecurity they've all been deal you know built totally separately not to even work and that's why you've got these multiple layers you've got a product the security problem then this got its own analytics engine and manager then you've got a manager of managers and an analyzer of analyzers and the sim system and then a saw I mean just goes on it makes it so complex for people and that's why I think they look into something a bit more simplified but most importantly the platform must be friendly from a consumption model you must be able to do an appliance where you need to do virtual machine SAS cloud native container whatever it may be because that network has changed in those ages as those edges move you've got them to have a platform that adaptable to the consumption model require you know I had a great cartridge with Phil Quaid you see your seaso over there and we were chatting around you know this idea of I won't say customization but there's no one turnkey monolithic application it seems to these platforms tend to be enabling where the seaso trend is to have teams building ok and and and almost a customized but building software to automate to solve their use case for their outcome so enabling that is a trend we're seeing so I think you guys are on the right track there any comment on your take on this enabling platform is that something that you guys are seeing that CSIS is looking at more in-house development more use case focus because they have the data they got real-time they need to be building on a platform not told what they could do yeah I think you've always had this this network team trying to build things fast and open and the security team trying to post things down and make it more secure you know it becomes even more problematic if you kind of go to the cloud where you've got pockets a developer's kind of thing do things in the DevOps way really as fast as possible and sometimes the controls are not put in place in fact no the big as I said the biggest issue for the cloud is not so much you know malware it it's more about miss configuration that's why you're seeing the big breaches and that's more of a customer thing to do and so I think what the seaso is trying to do is make sure they apply the controls appropriately and again their job has become much harder now we've got all the multitude of endpoints that they didn't have before they've got now there when that's not just the closed MPLS network is old off different types of broadband 5 G's coming towards the end of this year next year as well the data centers may have decreased a bit but they've still got datacenter capacity and they're probably got 5 or 6 hours and 20 different SAS applications that put a deal with and they've got to deal with developers in there so it's a harder job for them and they need to melt or add those tools but come back to that single point of management great stuff John Madison CMO EVP great insight there it's almost a master class right there you laid it all out on what's going on a final question any change is what any other news updates on the four net front I know you guys got some answer I didn't see the breakouts of the session I had something else going on I think I've been walking dog and do some other things but you know being at home and to take care of things what's new what's what's out that people might have missed that's coming out of for today you're telling me you didn't have 60 hour a breakout on dedicated I don't think yeah we've you know we've have a lot going on you know we have a big R&D team here in North America and Canada and with a lot of products coming out this time of the year we bring out our 40 OS network operating system with 6.4 over 300 new features inside there including new orchestration systems for sp1 and then also we actually launched on network processor seven and the board gate already 200 F powered by four network processor sevens it's some system out there and provide over 800 gigs of fire or capacities but in bill V explain acceleration they can do things like elephant flows huge flows of data so there's always there's always new products coming out of 14 it sure those are the two big ones for this quarter you guys certainly are great interviews to talk to great a lot of expertise there final final question you know everyone every company's got their culture Moore's laws cadence of Moore's laws Intel faster cheaper smaller what's the for Annette culture if you had to kind of boil it down what's it you guys are always pushing great products out there all high quality I'll see security you got to be buttoned up and have good ops and controls but you still need to push the envelope and have stadia what's the culture if you had to kind of boil the culture down for Porter net what would it be that's always an interesting question and so the company's been going since 2000 okay the founders are still there NZ's CEO and Michael Z's the CTO and I think that one of the philosophies is that listen to the customer very closely because you can get distracted by shiny objects all over the place I want to go and do this oh yeah let's build this what about this and in the end the customer and and what they want may get lost and so we listen very closely we use you know we have a very high content of technology people who can translate the customer use case into what we should build and so I think that's the culture we have and maintain that so we're very close to our customers we've been building very quickly for them make sure it works it needs tweaking then we'll look at it again a very very customer driven always great to hear from the founders you guys had a great event accelerate 20 that's the hashtag some great highlights on Twitter some commentary there and of course go to Ford a net site to check out the replays Sean man so thanks for taking the time to share your insights here on the cube conversation I really appreciate it thank you okay it's cube concert here in Palo Alto we're bringing you all the interviews during this time we have our quarantine crew the cube is virtual we'll do whatever it takes to get the interviews out there and get the stories out there and the people behind the tech making it happen I'm John Fourier thanks for watching [Music]