>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (ambient music) >> Lisa: Hey everyone, welcome back to Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE Live at MWC 23. Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. This is day two of four days of cube coverage but you know that, because you've already been watching yesterday and today. We're going to have a great conversation next with EnterpriseWeb and Red Hat. We've had great conversations the last day and a half about the Telco industry, the challenges, the opportunities. We're going to unpack that from this lens. Please welcome Dave Duggal, founder and CEO of EnterpriseWeb and Azhar Sayeed is here, Senior Director Solution Architecture at Red Hat. >> Guys, it's great to have you on the program. >> Yes. >> Thank you Lisa, >> Great being here with you. >> Dave let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of EnterpriseWeb. What kind of business is it? What's the business model? What do you guys do? >> Okay so, EnterpriseWeb is reinventing middleware, right? So the historic middleware was to build vertically integrated stacks, right? And those stacks are now such becoming the rate limiters for interoperability for so the end-to-end solutions that everybody's looking for, right? Red Hat's talking about the unified platform. You guys are talking about Supercloud, EnterpriseWeb addresses that we've built middleware based on serverless architecture, so lightweight, low latency, high performance middleware. And we're working with the world's biggest, we sell through channels and we work through partners like Red Hat Intel, Fortnet, Keysight, Tech Mahindra. So working with some of the biggest players that have recognized the value of our innovation, to deliver transformation to the Telecom industry. >> So what are you guys doing together? Is this, is this an OpenShift play? >> Is it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so we've got two projects right her on the floor at MWC throughout the various partners, where EnterpriseWeb is actually providing an application layer, sorry application middleware over Red Hat's, OpenShift and we're essentially generating operators so Red Hat operators, so that all our vendors, and, sorry vendors that we onboard into our catalog can be deployed easily through the OpenShift platform. And we allow those, those vendors to be flexibly composed into network services. So the real challenge for operators historically is that they, they have challenges onboarding the vendors. It takes a long time. Each one of them is a snowflake. They, you know, even though there's standards they don't all observe or follow the same standards. So we make it easier using models, right? For, in a model driven process to on boards or streamline that onboarding process, compose functions into services deploy those services seamlessly through Red Hat's OpenShift, and then manage the, the lifecycle, like the quality of service and the SLAs for those services. >> So Red Hat obviously has pretty prominent Telco business has for a while. Red Hat OpenStack actually is is pretty popular within the Telco business. People thought, "Oh, OpenStack, that's dead." Actually, no, it's actually doing quite well. We see it all over the place where for whatever reason people want to build their own cloud. And, and so, so what's happening in the industry because you have the traditional Telcos we heard in the keynotes that kind of typical narrative about, you know, we can't let the over the top vendors do this again. We're, we're going to be Apifi everything, we're going to monetize this time around, not just with connectivity but the, but the fact is they really don't have a developer community. >> Yes. >> Yet anyway. >> Then you have these disruptors over here that are saying "Yeah, we're going to enable ISVs." How do you see it? What's the landscape look like? Help us understand, you know, what the horses on the track are doing. >> Sure. I think what has happened, Dave, is that the conversation has moved a little bit from where they were just looking at IS infrastructure service with virtual machines and OpenStack, as you mentioned, to how do we move up the value chain and look at different applications. And therein comes the rub, right? You have applications with different requirements, IT network that have various different requirements that are there. So as you start to build those cloud platform, as you start to modernize those set of applications, you then start to look at microservices and how you build them. You need the ability to orchestrate them. So some of those problem statements have moved from not just refactoring those applications, but actually now to how do you reliably deploy, manage in a multicloud multi cluster way. So this conversation around Supercloud or this conversation around multicloud is very >> You could say Supercloud. That's okay >> (Dave Duggal and Azhar laughs) >> It's absolutely very real though. The reason why it's very real is, if you look at transformations around Telco, there are two things that are happening. One, Telco IT, they're looking at partnerships with hybrid cloud, I mean with public cloud players to build a hybrid environment. They're also building their own Telco Cloud environment for their network functions. Now, in both of those spaces, they end up operating two to three different environments themselves. Now how do you create a level of abstraction across those? How do you manage that particular infrastructure? And then how do you orchestrate all of those different workloads? Those are the type of problems that they're actually beginning to solve. So they've moved on from really just putting that virtualizing their application, putting it on OpenStack to now really seriously looking at "How do I build a service?" "How do I leverage the catalog that's available both in my private and public and build an overall service process?" >> And by the way what you just described as hybrid cloud and multicloud is, you know Supercloud is what multicloud should have been. And what, what it originally became is "I run on this cloud and I run on this cloud" and "I run on this cloud and I have a hybrid." And, and Supercloud is meant to create a common experience across those clouds. >> Dave Duggal: Right? >> Thanks to, you know, Supercloud middleware. >> Yeah. >> Right? And, and so that's what you guys do. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Dave, I mean, even the name EnterpriseWeb, you know we started from looking from the application layer down. If you look at it, the last 10 years we've looked from the infrastructure up, right? And now everybody's looking northbound saying "You know what, actually, if I look from the infrastructure up the only thing I'll ever build is silos, right?" And those silos get in the way of the interoperability and the agility the businesses want. So we take the perspective as high level abstractions, common tools, so that if I'm a CXO, I can look down on my environments, right? When I'm really not, I honestly, if I'm an, if I'm a CEO I don't really care or CXO, I don't really care so much about my infrastructure to be honest. I care about my applications and their behavior. I care about my SLAs and my quality of service, right? Those are the things I care about. So I really want an EnterpriseWeb, right? Something that helps me connect all my distributed applications all across all of the environments. So I can have one place a consistency layer that speaks a common language. We know that there's a lot of heterogeneity down all those layers and a lot of complexity down those layers. But the business doesn't care. They don't want to care, right? They want to actually take their applications deploy them where they're the most performant where they're getting the best cost, right? The lowest and maybe sustainability concerns, all those. They want to address those problems, meet their SLAs meet their quality service. And you know what, if it's running on Amazon, great. If it's running on Google Cloud platform, great. If it, you know, we're doing one project right here that we're demonstrating here is with with Amazon Tech Mahindra and OpenShift, where we took a disaggregated 5G core, right? So this is like sort of latest telecom, you know net networking software, right? We're deploying pulling elements of that network across core, across Amazon EKS, OpenShift on Red Hat ROSA, as well as just OpenShift for cloud. And we, through a single pane of deployment and management, we deployed the elements of the 5G core across them and then connected them in an end-to-end process. That's Telco Supercloud. >> Dave Vellante: So that's an O-RAN deployment. >> Yeah that's >> So, the big advantage of that, pardon me, Dave but the big advantage of that is the customer really doesn't care where the components are being served from for them. It's a 5G capability. It happens to sit in different locations. And that's, it's, it's about how do you abstract and how do you manage all those different workloads in a cohesive way? And that's exactly what EnterpriseWeb is bringing to the table. And what we do is we abstract the underlying infrastructure which is the cloud layer. So if, because AWS operating environment is different then private cloud operating environment then Azure environment, you have the networking is set up is different in each one of them. If there is a way you can abstract all of that and present it in a common operating model it becomes a lot easier than for anybody to be able to consume. >> And what a lot of customers tell me is the way they deal with multicloud complexity is they go with mono cloud, right? And so they'll lose out on some of the best services >> Absolutely >> If best of, so that's not >> that's not ideal, but at the end of the day, agree, developers don't want to muck with all the plumbing >> Dave Duggal: Yep. >> They want to write code. >> Azhar: Correct. >> So like I come back to are the traditional Telcos leaning in on a way that they're going to enable ISVs and developers to write on top of those platforms? Or are there sort of new entrance and disruptors? And I know, I know the answer is both >> Dave Duggal: Yep. >> but I feel as though the Telcos still haven't, traditional Telcos haven't tuned in to that developer affinity, but you guys sell to them. >> What, what are you seeing? >> Yeah, so >> What we have seen is there are Telcos fall into several categories there. If you look at the most mature ones, you know they are very eager to move up the value chain. There are some smaller very nimble ones that have actually doing, they're actually doing something really interesting. For example, they've provided sandbox environments to developers to say "Go develop your applications to the sandbox environment." We'll use that to build an net service with you. I can give you some interesting examples across the globe that, where that is happening, right? In AsiaPac, particularly in Australia, ANZ region. There are a couple of providers who have who have done this, but in, in, in a very interesting way. But the challenges to them, why it's not completely open or public yet is primarily because they haven't figured out how to exactly monetize that. And, and that's the reason why. So in the absence of that, what will happen is they they have to rely on the ISV ecosystem to be able to build those capabilities which they can then bring it on as part of the catalog. But in Latin America, I was talking to one of the providers and they said, "Well look we have a public cloud, we have our own public cloud, right?" What we want do is use that to offer localized services not just bring everything in from the top >> But, but we heard from Ericson's CEO they're basically going to monetize it by what I call "gouge", the developers >> (Azhar laughs) >> access to the network telemetry as opposed to saying, "Hey, here's an open platform development on top of it and it will maybe create something like an app store and we'll take a piece of the action." >> So ours, >> to be is a better model. >> Yeah. So that's perfect. Our second project that we're showing here is with Intel, right? So Intel came to us cause they are a reputation for doing advanced automation solutions. They gave us carte blanche in their labs. So this is Intel Network Builders they said pick your partners. And we went with the Red Hat, Fort Net, Keysite this company KX doing AIML. But to address your DevX, here's Intel explicitly wants to get closer to the developers by exposing their APIs, open APIs over their infrastructure. Just like Red Hat has APIs, right? And so they can expose them northbound to developers so developers can leverage and tune their applications, right? But the challenge there is what Intel is doing at the low level network infrastructure, right? Is fundamentally complex, right? What you want is an abstraction layer where develop and this gets to, to your point Dave where you just said like "The developers just want to get their job done." or really they want to focus on the business logic and accelerate that service delivery, right? So the idea here is an EnterpriseWeb they can literally declaratively compose their services, express their intent. "I want this to run optimized for low latency. I want this to run optimized for energy consumption." Right? And that's all they say, right? That's a very high level statement. And then the run time translates it between all the elements that are participating in that service to realize the developer's intent, right? No hands, right? Zero touch, right? So that's now a movement in telecom. So you're right, it's taking a while because these are pretty fundamental shifts, right? But it's intent based networking, right? So it's almost two parts, right? One is you have to have the open APIs, right? So that the infrastructure has to expose its capabilities. Then you need abstractions over the top that make it simple for developers to take, you know, make use of them. >> See, one of the demonstrations we are doing is around AIOps. And I've had literally here on this floor, two conversations around what I call as network as a platform. Although it sounds like a cliche term, that's exactly what Dave was describing in terms of exposing APIs from the infrastructure and utilizing them. So once you get that data, then now you can do analytics and do machine learning to be able to build models and figure out how you can orchestrate better how you can monetize better, how can how you can utilize better, right? So all of those things become important. It's just not about internal optimization but it's also about how do you expose it to third party ecosystem to translate that into better delivery mechanisms or IOT capability and so on. >> But if they're going to charge me for every API call in the network I'm going to go broke (team laughs) >> And I'm going to get really pissed. I mean, I feel like, I'm just running down, Oracle. IBM tried it. Oracle, okay, they got Java, but they don't they don't have developer jobs. VMware, okay? They got Aria. EMC used to have a thing called code. IBM had to buy Red Hat to get to the developer community. (Lisa laughs) >> So I feel like the telcos don't today have those developer shops. So, so they have to partner. [Azhar] Yes. >> With guys like you and then be more open and and let a zillion flowers bloom or else they're going to get disrupted in a big way and they're going to it's going to be a repeat of the over, over the top in, in in a different model that I can't predict. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely true. I mean, look, they cannot be in the connectivity business. Telcos cannot be just in the connectivity business. It's, I think so, you know, >> Dave Vellante: You had a fry a frozen hand (Dave Daggul laughs) >> off that, you know. >> Well, you know, think about they almost have to go become over the top on themselves, right? That's what the cloud guys are doing, right? >> Yeah. >> They're riding over their backbone that by taking a creating a high level abstraction, they in turn abstract away the infrastructure underneath them, right? And that's really the end game >> Right? >> Dave Vellante: Yeah. >> Is because now, >> they're over the top it's their network, it's their infrastructure, right? They don't want to become bid pipes. >> Yep. >> Now you, they can take OpenShift, run that in any cloud. >> Yep. >> Right? >> You can run that in hybrid cloud, enterprise web can do the application layer configuration and management. And together we're running, you know, OSI layers one through seven, east to west, north to south. We're running across the the RAN, the core and the transport. And that is telco super cloud, my friend. >> Yeah. Well, >> (Dave Duggal laughs) >> I'm dominating the conversation cause I love talking super cloud. >> I knew you would. >> So speaking of super superpowers, when you're in customer or prospective customer conversations with providers and they've got, obviously they're they're in this transformative state right now. How, what do you describe as the superpower between Red Hat and EnterpriseWeb in terms of really helping these Telcos transforms. But at the end of the day, the connectivity's there the end user gets what they want, which is I want this to work wherever I am. >> Yeah, yeah. That's a great question, Lisa. So I think the way you could look at it is most software has, has been evolved to be specialized, right? So in Telcos' no different, right? We have this in the enterprise, right? All these specialized stacks, all these components that they wire together in the, in you think of Telco as a sort of a super set of enterprise problems, right? They have all those problems like magnified manyfold, right? And so you have specialized, let's say orchestrators and other tools for every Telco domain for every Telco layer. Now you have a zoo of orchestrators, right? None of them were designed to work together, right? They all speak a specific language, let's say quote unquote for doing a specific purpose. But everything that's interesting in the 21st century is across layers and across domains, right? If a siloed static application, those are dead, right? Nobody's doing those anymore. Even developers don't do those developers are doing composition today. They're not doing, nobody wants to hear about a 6 million lines of code, right? They want to hear, "How did you take these five things and bring 'em together for productive use?" >> Lisa: Right. How did you deliver faster for my enterprise? How did you save me money? How did you create business value? And that's what we're doing together. >> I mean, just to add on to Dave, I was talking to one of the providers, they have more than 30,000 nodes in their infrastructure. When I say no to your servers running, you know, Kubernetes,running open stack, running different components. If try managing that in one single entity, if you will. Not possible. You got to fragment, you got to segment in some way. Now the question is, if you are not exposing that particular infrastructure and the appropriate KPIs and appropriate things, you will not be able to efficiently utilize that across the board. So you need almost a construct that creates like a manager of managers, a hierarchical structure, which would allow you to be more intelligent in terms of how you place those, how you manage that. And so when you ask the question about what's the secret sauce between the two, well this is exactly where EnterpriseWeb brings in that capability to analyze information, be more intelligent about it. And what we do is provide an abstraction of the cloud layer so that they can, you know, then do the right job in terms of making sure that it's appropriate and it's consistent. >> Consistency is key. Guys, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure really digging through EnterpriseWeb. >> Thank you. >> What you're doing >> with Red Hat. How you're helping the organization transform and Supercloud, we can't forget Supercloud. (Dave Vellante laughs) >> Fight Supercloud. Guys, thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you so much Lisa. >> Thank you. >> Thank you guys. >> Very nice. >> Lisa: We really appreciate it. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage coming to you live from MWC 23. We'll be back after a short break.

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas, "theCube" is on our fourth day of covering AWS re:Invent, live from the Venetian Expo Center. This week has been amazing. We've created a ton of content, as you know, 'cause you've been watching. But, there's been north of 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. We've had amazing conversations across the AWS ecosystem. Lisa Martin, Paul Gillan. Paul, what's your, kind of, take on day four of the conference? It's still highly packed. >> Oh, there's lots of people here. (laughs) >> Yep. Unusual for the final day of a conference. I think Werner Vogels, if I'm pronouncing it right kicked things off today when he talked about asymmetry and how the world is, you know, asymmetric. We build symmetric software, because it's convenient to do so, but asymmetric software actually scales and evolves much better. And I think that that was a conversation starter for a lot of what people are talking about here today, which is how the cloud changes the way we think about building software. >> Absolutely does. >> Our next guest, Holger Mueller, that's one of his key areas of focus. And Holger, welcome, thanks for joining us on the "theCube". >> Thanks for having me. >> What did you take away from the keynote this morning? >> Well, how do you feel on the final day of the marathon, right? We're like 23, 24 miles. Hit the ball yesterday, right? >> We are going strong Holger. And, of course, >> Yeah. >> you guys, we can either talk about business transformation with cloud or the World Cup. >> Or we can do both. >> The World Cup, hands down. World Cup. (Lisa laughs) Germany's out, I'm unbiased now. They just got eliminated. >> Spain is out now. >> What will the U.S. do against Netherlands tomorrow? >> They're going to win. What's your forecast? U.S. will win? >> They're going to win 2 to 1. >> What do you say, 2:1? >> I'm optimistic, but realistic. >> 3? >> I think Netherlands. >> Netherlands will win? >> 2 to nothing. >> Okay, I'll vote for the U.S.. >> Okay, okay >> 3:1 for the U.S.. >> Be optimistic. >> Root for the U.S.. >> Okay, I like that. >> Hope for the best wherever you work. >> Tomorrow you'll see how much soccer experts we are. >> If your prediction was right. (laughs) >> (laughs) Ja, ja. Or yours was right, right, so. Cool, no, but the event, I think the event is great to have 50,000 people. Biggest event of the year again, right? Not yet the 70,000 we had in 2019. But it's great to have the energy. I've never seen the show floor going all the way down like this, right? >> I haven't either. >> I've never seen that. I think it's a record. Often vendors get the space here and they have the keynote area, and the entertainment area, >> Yeah. >> and the food area, and then there's an exposition, right? This is packed. >> It's packed. >> Maybe it'll pay off. >> You don't see the big empty booths that you often see. >> Oh no. >> Exactly, exactly. You know, the white spaces and so on. >> No. >> Right. >> Which is a good thing. >> There's lots of energy, which is great. And today's, of course, the developer day, like you said before, right now Vogels' a rockstar in the developer community, right. Revered visionary on what has been built, right? And he's becoming a little professorial is my feeling, right. He had these moments before too, when it was justifying how AWS moved off the Oracle database about the importance of data warehouses and structures and why DynamoDB is better and so on. But, he had a large part of this too, and this coming right across the keynotes, right? Adam Selipsky talking about Antarctica, right? Scott against almonds and what went wrong. He didn't tell us, by the way, which often the tech winners forget. Scott banked on technology. He had motorized sleds, which failed after three miles. So, that's not the story to tell the technology. Let everything down. Everybody went back to ponies and horses and dogs. >> Maybe goes back to these asynchronous behavior. >> Yeah. >> The way of nature. >> And, yesterday, Swami talking about the bridges, right? The root bridges, right? >> Right. >> So, how could Werner pick up with his video at the beginning. >> Yeah. >> And then talk about space and other things? So I think it's important to educate about event-based architecture, right? And we see this massive transformation. Modern software has to be event based, right? Because, that's how things work and we didn't think like this before. I see this massive transformation in my other research area in other platforms about the HR space, where payrolls are being rebuilt completely. And payroll used to be one of the three peaks of ERP, right? You would size your ERP machine before the cloud to financial close, to run the payroll, and to do an MRP manufacturing run if you're manufacturing. God forbid you run those three at the same time. Your machine wouldn't be able to do that, right? So it was like start the engine, start the boosters, we are running payroll. And now the modern payroll designs like you see from ADP or from Ceridian, they're taking every payroll relevant event. You check in time wise, right? You go overtime, you take a day of vacation and right away they trigger and run the payroll, so it's up to date for you, up to date for you, which, in this economy, is super important, because we have more gig workers, we have more contractors, we have employees who are leaving suddenly, right? The great resignation, which is happening. So, from that perspective, it's the modern way of building software. So it's great to see Werner showing that. The dirty little secrets though is that is more efficient software for the cloud platform vendor too. Takes less resources, gets less committed things, so it's a much more scalable architecture. You can move the events, you can work asynchronously much better. And the biggest showcase, right? What's the biggest transactional showcase for an eventually consistent asynchronous transactional application? I know it's a mouthful, but we at Amazon, AWS, Amazon, right? You buy something on Amazon they tell you it's going to come tomorrow. >> Yep. >> They don't know it's going to come tomorrow by that time, because it's not transactionally consistent, right? We're just making every ERP vendor, who lives in transactional work, having nightmares of course, (Lisa laughs) but for them it's like, yes we have the delivery to promise, a promise to do that, right? But they come back to you and say, "Sorry, we couldn't make it, delivery didn't work and so on. It's going to be a new date. We are out of the product.", right? So these kind of event base asynchronous things are more and more what's going to scale around the world. It's going to be efficient for everybody, it's going to be better customer experience, better employee experience, ultimately better user experience, it's going to be better for the enterprise to build, but we have to learn to build it. So big announcement was to build our environment to build better eventful applications from today. >> Talk about... This is the first re:Invent... Well, actually, I'm sorry, it's the second re:Invent under Adam Selipsky. >> Right. Adam Selipsky, yep. >> But his first year. >> Right >> We're hearing a lot of momentum. What's your takeaway with what he delivered with the direction Amazon is going, their vision? >> Ja, I think compared to the Jassy times, right, we didn't see the hockey stick slide, right? With a number of innovations and releases. That was done in 2019 too, right? So I think it's a more pedestrian pace, which, ultimately, is good for everybody, because it means that when software vendors go slower, they do less width, but more depth. >> Yeah. >> And depth is what customers need. So Amazon's building more on the depth side, which is good news. I also think, and that's not official, right, but Adam Selipsky came from Tableau, right? >> Yeah. So he is a BI analytics guy. So it's no surprise we have three data lake offerings, right? Security data lake, we have a healthcare data lake and we have a supply chain data lake, right? Where all, again, the epigonos mentioned them I was like, "Oh, my god, Amazon's coming to supply chain.", but it's actually data lakes, which is an interesting part. But, I think it's not a surprise that someone who comes heavily out of the analytics BI world, it's off ringside, if I was pitching internally to him maybe I'd do something which he's is familiar with and I think that's what we see in the major announcement of his keynote on Tuesday. >> I mean, speaking of analytics, one of the big announcements early on was Amazon is trying to bridge the gap between Aurora. >> Yep. >> And Redshift. >> Right. >> And setting up for continuous pipelines, continuous integration. >> Right. >> Seems to be a trend that is common to all database players. I mean, Oracle is doing the same thing. SAP is doing the same thing. MariaDB. Do you see the distinction between transactional and analytical databases going away? >> It's coming together, right? Certainly coming together, from that perspective, but there's a fundamental different starting point, right? And with the big idea part, right? The universal database, which does everything for you in one system, whereas the suite of specialized databases, right? Oracle is in the classic Oracle database in the universal database camp. On the other side you have Amazon, which built a database. This is one of the first few Amazon re:Invents. It's my 10th where there was no new database announced. Right? >> No. >> So it was always add another one specially- >> I think they have enough. >> It's a great approach. They have enough, right? So it's a great approach to build something quick, which Amazon is all about. It's not so great when customers want to leverage things. And, ultimately, which I think with Selipsky, AWS is waking up to the enterprise saying, "I have all this different database and what is in them matters to me." >> Yeah. >> "So how can I get this better?" So no surprise between the two most popular database, Aurora and RDS. They're bring together the data with some out of the box parts. I think it's kind of, like, silly when Swami's saying, "Hey, no ETL.". (chuckles) Right? >> Yeah. >> There shouldn't be an ETL from the same vendor, right? There should be data pipes from that perspective anyway. So it looks like, on the overall value proposition database side, AWS is moving closer to the universal database on the Oracle side, right? Because, if you lift, of course, the universal database, under the hood, you see, well, there's different database there, different part there, you do something there, you have to configure stuff, which is also the case but it's one part of it, right, so. >> With that shift, talk about the value that's going to be in it for customers regardless of industry. >> Well, the value for customers is great, because when software vendors, or platform vendors, go in depth, you get more functionality, you get more maturity you get easier ways of setting up the whole things. You get ways of maintaining things. And you, ultimately, get lower TCO to build them, which is super important for enterprise. Because, here, this is the developer cloud, right? Developers love AWS. Developers are scarce, expensive. Might not be want to work for you, right? So developer velocity getting more done with same amount of developers, getting less done, less developers getting more done, is super crucial, super important. So this is all good news for enterprise banking on AWS and then providing them more efficiency, more automation, out of the box. >> Some of your customer conversations this week, talk to us about some of the feedback. What's the common denominator amongst customers right now? >> Customers are excited. First of all, like, first event, again in person, large, right? >> Yeah. >> People can travel, people meet each other, meet in person. They have a good handle around the complexity, which used to be a huge challenge in the past, because people say, "Do I do this?" I know so many CXOs saying, "Yeah, I want to build, say, something in IoT with AWS. The first reference built it like this, the next reference built it completely different. The third one built it completely different again. So now I'm doubting if my team has the skills to build things successfully, because will they be smart enough, like your teams, because there's no repetitiveness and that repetitiveness is going to be very important for AWS to come up with some higher packaging and version numbers.", right? But customers like that message. They like that things are working better together. They're not missing the big announcement, right? One of the traditional things of AWS would be, and they made it even proud, as a system, Jassy was saying, "If we look at the IT spend and we see something which is, like, high margin for us and not served well and we announced something there, right?" So Quick Start, Workspaces, where all liaisons where AWS went after traditional IT spend and had an offering. We haven't had this in 2019, we don't have them in 2020. Last year and didn't have it now. So something is changing on the AWS side. It's a little bit too early to figure out what, but they're not chewing off as many big things as they used in the past. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Did you get the sense that... Keith Townsend, from "The CTO Advisor", was on earlier. >> Yep. >> And he said he's been to many re:Invents, as you have, and he said that he got the sense that this is Amazon's chance to do a victory lap, as he called it. That this is a way for Amazon to reinforce the leadership cloud. >> Ja. >> And really, kind of, establish that nobody can come close to them, nobody can compete with them. >> You don't think that- >> I don't think that's at all... I mean, love Keith, he's a great guy, but I don't think that's the mindset at all, right? So, I mean, Jassy was always saying, "It's still the morning of the day in the cloud.", right? They're far away from being done. They're obsessed over being right. They do more work with the analysts. We think we got something right. And I like the passion, from that perspective. So I think Amazon's far from being complacent and the area, which is the biggest bit, right, the biggest. The only thing where Amazon truly has floundered, always floundered, is the AI space, right? So, 2018, Werner Vogels was doing more technical stuff that "Oh, this is all about linear regression.", right? And Amazon didn't start to put algorithms on silicon, right? And they have a three four trail and they didn't announce anything new here, behind Google who's been doing this for much, much longer than TPU platform, so. >> But they have now. >> They're keen aware. >> Yep. >> They now have three, or they own two of their own hardware platforms for AI. >> Right. >> They support the Intel platform. They seem to be catching up in that area. >> It's very hard to catch up on hardware, right? Because, there's release cycles, right? And just the volume that, just talking about the largest models that we have right now, to do with the language models, and Google is just doing a side note of saying, "Oh, we supported 50 less or 30 less, not little spoken languages, which I've never even heard of, because they're under banked and under supported and here's the language model, right? And I think it's all about little bit the organizational DNA of a company. I'm a strong believer in that. And, you have to remember AWS comes from the retail side, right? >> Yeah. >> Their roll out of data centers follows their retail strategy. Open secret, right? But, the same thing as the scale of the AI is very very different than if you take a look over at Google where it makes sense of the internet, right? The scale right away >> Right. >> is a solution, which is a good solution for some of the DNA of AWS. Also, Microsoft Azure is good. There has no chance to even get off the ship of that at Google, right? And these leaders with Google and it's not getting smaller, right? We didn't hear anything. I mean so much focused on data. Why do they focus so much on data? Because, data is the first step for AI. If AWS was doing a victory lap, data would've been done. They would own data, right? They would have a competitor to BigQuery Omni from the Google side to get data from the different clouds. There's crickets on that topic, right? So I think they know that they're catching up on the AI side, but it's really, really hard. It's not like in software where you can't acquire someone they could acquire in video. >> Not at Core Donovan. >> Might play a game, but that's not a good idea, right? So you can't, there's no shortcuts on the hardware side. As much as I'm a software guy and love software and don't like hardware, it's always a pain, right? There's no shortcuts there and there's nothing, which I think, has a new Artanium instance, of course, certainly, but they're not catching up. The distance is the same, yep. >> One of the things is funny, one of our guests, I think it was Tuesday, it was, it was right after Adam's keynote. >> Sure. >> Said that Adam Selipsky stood up on stage and talked about data for 52 minutes. >> Yeah. Right. >> It was timed, 52 minutes. >> Right. >> Huge emphasis on that. One of the things that Adam said to John Furrier when they were able to sit down >> Yeah >> a week or so ago at an event preview, was that CIOs and CEOs are not coming to Adam to talk about technology. They want to talk about transformation. They want to talk about business transformation. >> Sure, yes, yes. >> Talk to me in our last couple of minutes about what CEOs and CIOs are coming to you saying, "Holger, help us figure this out. We have to transform the business." >> Right. So we advise, I'm going quote our friends at Gartner, once the type A company. So we'll use technology aggressively, right? So take everything in the audience with a grain of salt, followers are the laggards, and so on. So for them, it's really the cusp of doing AI, right? Getting that data together. It has to be in the cloud. We live in the air of infinite computing. The cloud makes computing infinite, both from a storage, from a compute perspective, from an AI perspective, and then define new business models and create new best practices on top of that. Because, in the past, everything was fine out on premise, right? We talked about the (indistinct) size. Now in the cloud, it's just the business model to say, "Do I want to have a little more AI? Do I want a to run a little more? Will it give me the insight in the business?". So, that's the transformation that is happening, really. So, bringing your data together, this live conversation data, but not for bringing the data together. There's often the big win for the business for the first time to see the data. AWS is banking on that. The supply chain product, as an example. So many disparate systems, bring them them together. Big win for the business. But, the win for the business, ultimately, is when you change the paradigm from the user showing up to do something, to software doing stuff for us, right? >> Right. >> We have too much in this operator paradigm. If the user doesn't show up, doesn't find the click, doesn't find where to go, nothing happens. It can't be done in the 21st century, right? Software has to look over your shoulder. >> Good point. >> Understand one for you, autonomous self-driving systems. That's what CXOs, who're future looking, will be talked to come to AWS and all the other cloud vendors. >> Got it, last question for you. We're making a sizzle reel on Instagram. >> Yeah. >> If you had, like, a phrase, like, or a 30 second pitch that would describe re:Invent 2022 in the direction the company's going. What would that elevator pitch say? >> 30 second pitch? >> Yeah. >> All right, just timing. AWS is doing well. It's providing more depth, less breadth. Making things work together. It's catching up in some areas, has some interesting offerings, like the healthcare offering, the security data lake offering, which might change some things in the industry. It's staying the course and it's going strong. >> Ah, beautifully said, Holger. Thank you so much for joining Paul and me. >> Might have been too short. I don't know. (laughs) >> About 10 seconds left over. >> It was perfect, absolutely perfect. >> Thanks for having me. >> Perfect sizzle reel. >> Appreciate it. >> We appreciate your insights, what you're seeing this week, and the direction the company is going. We can't wait to see what happens in the next year. And, yeah. >> Thanks for having me. >> And of course, we've been on so many times. We know we're going to have you back. (laughs) >> Looking forward to it, thank you. >> All right, for Holger Mueller and Paul Gillan, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCube", the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, friends. Welcome back to The Cube's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2022. We're in Vegas. Lovely Las Vegas. Beautiful outside, although I have only seen outside today once, but very excited to be at re:Invent. We're hearing between 50,000 and 70,000 attendees and it's insane, but people are ready to be back. This morning's keynote by CEO Adam Selipsky was full of great messages, big focus on data, customers, partners, the ecosystem. So excited. And I'm very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to the program, David Shacochis, VP Enterprise Portfolio Strategy Product Management at Lumen. David, welcome back. >> Lisa, good to be here. The Five Timers Club. >> You are in the Five Timers Club. This is David's fifth appearance on the show. And we were talking before we went live- >> Do we do the jacket now and do we do the jacket later? >> Yeah, the jacket will come later. >> Okay. >> The Five Timers Club, like on SNL. We're going to have that for The Cube. We'll get you measured up and get that all fitted for you. >> That'd be better. >> So talk a little bit about Lumen. 'Cause last time you hear it wasn't Lumen. >> We weren't Lumen last time. So this is the first time... last time we were here on The Cube at re:Invent. This was probably 2019 or so. We were a different company. The company was called CenturyLink back then. We rebranded in 2020 to really represent our identity as a delivery of...as a solutions provider over our fiber network. So Lumen is the corporate brand, the company name. It represents basically a lot of the fiber that's been laid throughout the world and in North America and in enterprise metropolitan areas over the past 10 to 15 years. You know, companies like CenturyLink and Quest and Level 3, all those companies have really rolled up into building that core asset of the network. So Lumen is really the brand for the 21st century for the company, really focused on delivering services for the enterprise and then delivering a lot of value added services around that core network asset. >> So rebranding during the pandemic, what's been the customer feedback and sentiment? >> Yeah, I think customers have really actually appreciated it as certainly a more technology oriented brand, right? Sort of shifting away a little bit from some of the communications and telecom background of the company and the heritage. And while those assets that were built up during that period of time have been substantial, and we still build off of those assets going forward, really what a lot of the customer feedback has been is that it puts us in a posture to be a little bit more of a business solutions provider for customers, right? So there's a lot of things that we can do with that core network asset, the fiber networking a lot of the services that we launch on that in terms of public IP, you know, public internet capacity, private networking, private VPNs, VoIP and voice services. These are services that you'd expect from a company like that. But there's a lot of services inside the Lumen brand that you might surprise you, right? There's an edge computing capability that can deliver five milliseconds of latency within 95% of North American enterprise. >> Wow. >> There's a threat detection lab that goes and takes all of the traffic flowing over the public side of our network and analyzes it in a data lake and turns it into threat intelligence that we then offer off to our customers on a subscription basis. There's a production house that goes and, you know, does production networking for major sports arenas and sports events. There's a wide range of services inside of Lumen that really what the Lumen brand allows us to do is start talking about what those services can do and what networking can do for our customers in the enterprise in a more comprehensive way. >> So good changes, big brand changes for Lumen in the last couple of years. Also, I mean, during a time of such turmoil in the world, we've seen work change dramatically. You know, everybody...companies had to pivot massively quickly a couple years ago. >> Yep. >> Almost approaching three years ago, which is crazy amazing to be digital because they had to be able to survive. >> They did >> Now they're looking at being able to thrive, but now we're also in this hybrid work environment. The future of work has changed. >> Totally. >> Almost permanently. >> Yep. >> How is Lumen positioned to address some of the permanent changes to the work environments? Like the last time we were at re:Invented- >> Yeah. >> In person. This didn't exist. >> That's right. So really, it's one of the things we talk to our customers almost the most about is this idea of the future of work. And, you know, we really think about the future of work as about, you know, workers and workloads and the networks that connect them. You think about how much all of those demands are shifting and changing, right? What we were talking about, and it's very easy for all of us to conceptualize what the changing face of the worker looks like, whether those are knowledge workers or frontline workers the venues in which people are working the environments and that connectivity, predictability of those work desk environments changes so significantly. But workloads are changing and, you know we're sitting here at a trade show that does nothing but celebrate the transformation of workloads. Workloads running in ways in business logic and capturing of data and analysis of data. The changing methodologies and the changing formats of workloads, and then the changing venues for workloads. So workloads are running in places that never used to be data centers before. Workloads are running in interesting places and in different and challenging locations for what didn't used to be the data center. And so, you know, the workloads and the workloads are in a very dynamic situation. And the networks that connect them have to be dynamic, and they have to be flexible. And that's really why a lot of what Lumen invests in is working on the networks that connect workers and workloads both from a visibility and a managed services perspective to make sure that we're removing blind spots and then removing potential choke points and capacity issues, but then also being adaptable and dynamic enough to be able to go and reconfigure that network to reach all of the different places that, you know, workers and workloads are going to evolve into. What you'll find in a lot of cases, you know, the workers...a common scenario in the enterprise. A 500 person company with, you know, five offices and maybe one major facility. You know, that's now a 505 office company. >> Right. >> Right? The challenge of the network and the challenge of connecting workers and workloads is really one of the main conversations we have with our customers heading into this 21st century. >> What are some of the things that they're looking forward to in terms of embracing the future of work knowing this is probably how it's going to remain? >> Yeah, I think companies are really starting to experiment carefully and start to think about what they can do and certainly think about what they can do in the cloud with things like what the AWS platform allows them to do with some of the AWS abstractions and the AWS services allow them to start writing software for, and they're starting to really carefully, but very creatively and reach out into their you know, their base of enterprise data, their base of enterprise value to start running some experiments. We actually had a really interesting example of that in a session that Lumen shared here at re:Invent yesterday. You know, for the few hundred people that were there. You know, I think we got a lot of great feedback. It was really interesting session about the...really gets at this issue of the future of work and the changing ways that people are working. It actually was a really cool use case we worked on with Major League Baseball, Fox Sports, and AWS with the... using the Lumen network to essentially virtualize the production truck. Right? So you've all heard that, you know, the sports metaphor of, you know, the folks in the booth were sitting there started looking down and they're saying, oh great job by the guys or the gals in the truck. >> Yep. >> Right? That are, you know, that bring in that replay or great camera angle. They're always talking about the team and their production truck. Well, that production truck is literally a truck sitting outside the stadium. >> Yep. >> Full of electronics and software and gear. We were able to go and for a Major League Baseball game in...back in August, we were able to go and work with AWS, using the Lumen network, working with our partners and our customers at Fox Sports and virtualize all of that gear inside the truck. >> Wow. That's outstanding. >> Yep. So it was a live game. You know, they simulcast it, right? So, you know, we did our part of the broadcast and many hundreds of people, you know, saw that live broadcast was the first time they tried doing it. But, you know, to your point, what are enterprises doing? They're really starting to experiment, sort to push the envelope, right? They're kind of running things in new ways, you know, obviously hedging their bets, right? And sort of moving their way and sort of blue-green testing their way into the future by trying things out. But, you know, this is a massive revenue opportunity for a Major League Baseball game. You know, a premier, you know, Sunday night baseball contest between the Yankees and the Cardinals. We were able to go and take the entire truck, virtualize it down to a small rack of connectivity gear. Basically have that production network run over redundant fiber paths on the Lumen network up into AWS. And AWS is where all that software worked. The technical director of the show sitting in his office in North Carolina. >> Wow. >> The sound engineer is sitting in, you know, on his porch in Connecticut. Right? They were able to go and do the work of production anywhere while connected to AWS and then using the Lumen network, right? You know, the high powered capabilities of Lumens network underlay to be able to, you know, go and design a network topology and a worked topology that really wasn't possible before. >> Right. It's nice to hear, to your point, that customers are really embracing experimentation. >> Right. >> That's challenging to, obviously there was a big massive forcing function a couple of years ago where they didn't have a choice if they wanted to survive and eventually succeed and grow. >> Yeah. >> But the mindset of experimentation requires cultural change and that's a hard thing to do especially for I would think legacy organizations like Major League Baseball, but it sounds like they have the appetite. >> Yeah. They have the interest. >> They've been a fairly innovative organization for some time. But, you know, you're right. That idea of experimenting and that idea of trying out new things. Many people have observed, right? It's that forcing function of the pandemic that really drove a lot of organizations to go and make a lot of moves really quickly. And then they realized, oh, wait a minute. You know... I guess there's some sort of storytelling metaphor in there at some point of people realizing, oh wait, I can swim in these waters, right? I can do this. And so now they're starting to experiment and push the envelope even more using platforms like AWS, but then using a lot of the folks in the AWS partner network like Lumen, who are designing and sort of similarly inspired to deliver, you know, on demand and virtualized and dynamic capabilities within the core of our network and then within the services that our network can and the ways that our network connects to AWS. All of that experimentation now is possible because a lot of the things you need to do to try out the experiment are things you can get on demand and you can kind of pat, you can move back, you can learn. You can try new things and you can evolve. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Right. Absolutely. What are some of the things that you're excited about as, you know, here was this forcing function a couple years ago, we're coming out of that now, but the world has changed. The future of work as you are so brilliantly articulated has changed permanently. What are you excited about in terms of Lumen and AWS going forward? As we saw a lot of announcements this morning, big focus on data, vision of AWS is really that flywheel with Adams Selipsky is really, really going. What are you excited about going forward into 2023? >> Yeah, I mean we've been working with AWS for so long and have been critical partners for so long that, you know, I think a lot of it is continuation of a lot of the great work we've been doing. We've been investing in our own capabilities around the AWS partner network. You know, we're actually in a fairly unique position, you know, and we like to think that we're that unique position around the future of work where between workers, workloads and the networks that connect them. Our fingers are on a lot of those pulse points, right? Our fingers are on at really at the nexus of a lot of those dynamics. And our investment with AWS even puts us even more so in a position to go where a lot of the workloads are being transformed, right? So that's why, you know, we've invested in being one of the few network operators that is in the AWS partner network at the advanced tier that have the managed services competency, that have the migration competency and the network competency. You can count on one hand the number of network operators that have actually invested at that level with AWS. And there's an even smaller number that is, you know, based here in the United States. So, you know, I think that investment with AWS, investment in their partner programs and then investment co-innovation with AWS on things like that MLB use case really puts us in a position to keep on doing these kinds of things within the AWS partner network. And that's one of the biggest things we could possibly be excited about. >> So what does the go to market look like? Is it Lumen goes in, brings in AWS, vice versa? Both? >> Yeah, so a lot of being a member of the AWS partner network you have a lot of flexibility. You know, we have a lot of customers that are, you know, directly working with AWS. We have a lot of customers that would basically look to us to deliver the solution and, you know, and buy it all as a complete turnkey capability. So we have customers that do both. We have customers that, you know, just look to Lumen for the Lumen adjacent services and then pay, you know, pay a separate bill with AWS. So there's a lot of flexibility in the partner network in terms of what Lumen can deliver as a service, Lumen can deliver as a complete solution and then what parts of its with AWS and their platform factors into on an on-demand usage basis. >> And that would all be determined I imagine by what the customer really needs in their environment? >> Yeah, and sort of their own cloud strategy. There's a lot of customers who are all in on AWS and are really trying to driving and innovating and using some of the higher level services inside the AWS platform. And then there are customers who kind of looked at AWS as one of a few cloud platforms that they want to work with. The Lumen network is compatible and connected to all of them and our services teams are, you know, have the ability to go and let customers sort of take on whatever cloud posture they need. But if they are all in on AWS, there's, you know. Not many networks better to be on than Lumen in order to enable that. >> With that said, last question for you is if you had a bumper sticker or a billboard. Lumen's rebranded since we last saw you. What would that tagline or that phrase of impact be on that bumper sticker? >> Yeah, I'd get in a lot of trouble with our marketing team if I didn't give the actual bumper sticker for the company. But we really think of ourselves as the platform for amazing things. The fourth industrial revolution, everything going on in terms of the future of work, in terms of the future of industrial innovation, in terms of all the data that's being gathered. You know, Adam in the keynote this morning really went into a lot of detail on, you know, the depth of data and the mystery of data and how to harness it all and wrangle it all. It requires a lot of networking and a lot of connectivity. You know, for us to acquire, analyze and act on all that data and Lumen's platform for amazing things really helps forge that path forward to that fourth industrial revolution along with great partners like AWS. >> Outstanding. David, it's been such a pleasure having you back on The Cube. We'll get you fitted for that five timers club jacket. >> It sounds good. (Lisa laughs) >> I'll be back. >> Thanks so much for your insights and your time and well done with what you guys are doing at Lumen and AWS. >> Thanks Lisa. >> For David Shacochis, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube hopefully all day. This is our first full day of coverage at AWS re:Invent '22. Stick around. We'll be back tomorrow, and we know we're going to see you then. Have a great night. (upbeat music)

(lighthearted music) >> Hey all. Welcome back to theCube's coverage of Kubecon North America '22 CloudNativeCon. We're in Detroit. We've been here all day covering day one of the event from our perspective. Three days of coverage coming at you. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. John, a lot of buzz today. A lot of talk about the maturation of Kubernetes with different services that vendors are offering. We talked a little bit about security earlier today. One of the things that is a hot topic is national security. >> Yeah, this is a huge segment we got coming up. It really takes that all that nerd talk about Kubernetes and puts it into action. We actually see demonstrable results. This is about advanced artificial intelligence for tactical decision making at the edge to support our military operations because a lot of the deaths are because of bad technology. And this has been talked about. We've been covering Silicon Angle, we wrote a story there now on this topic. This should be a really exciting segment so I'm really looking forward to it. >> Excellent, so am I. Please welcome back one of our alumni, Nick Barcet senior director, customer led open innovation at Red Hat. Great to have you back. Greg Forrest joins us as well from Lockheed Martin Director of AI Foundations. Guys, great to have you on the program. Nick, what's been your perception before we dig into the news and break that open of KubeCon 2022? >> So, KubeCon is always a wonderful event because we can see people working with us in the community developing new stuff, people that we see virtually all year. But it's the time at which we can really establish human contact and that's wonderful. And it's also the moments where we can make big topic move forward and the topics have been plenty at this KubeCon from MicroShift to KCP, to AI, to all domains have been covered. >> Greg, you're the director of AI foundations at Lockheed Martin. Obviously well known, contractors to the military lot of intellectual property, storied history. >> Greg: Sure. >> Talk about this announcement with Red Hat 'cause I think this is really indicative of what's happening at the edge. Data, compute, industrial equipment, and people, in this case lives are in danger or to preserve peace. This is a killer story in terms of understanding what this all means. What's your take on this relationship with Red Hat? What's the secret sauce? >> Yeah, it's really important for us. So part of our 21st century security strategy as a company is to partner with companies like Red Hat and Big Tech and bring the best of the commercial world into the Department of Defense for our soldiers on the ground. And that's exactly what we announced today or Tuesday in our partnership. And so the ability to take commercial products and utilize them in theater is really important for saving lives on the ground. And so we can go through exactly what we did as part of this demonstration, but we took MicroShift at the edge and we were able to run our AI payloads on that. That provided us with the ability to do things like AI based RF sensing, so radio frequency sensing. And we were also able to do computer vision based technologies at the edge. So we went out, we had a small UAV that went out and searched for a target on the ground. It found a target using its radio frequency capabilities, the RF capabilities. Then once we're able to hone in on that target, what Red Hat device edge and MicroShift enables us to do is actually then switch sensing modalities. And then we're able to look at this target via the camera and use computer vision-based technologies to actually more accurately locate the target and then track that target in real time. So that's one of the keys to be able to actually switch modalities in real time on one platform is really important for our joint all domain operations construct. The idea of how do you actually connect all of these assets in the environment, in the battle space. >> Talk about the challenge and how hard it is to do this. The back haul, you'll go back to the central server, bring data back, connecting things. What if there's insecurity around connectivity? I mean there's a lot of things going, can you just scope the magnitude of how hard it's to actually deploy something at a tactical edge? >> It is. There's a lot of data that comes from all of these sensors, whether they're RF sensors or EO or IR. We're working across multiple domains, right? And so we want to take that data back and train on that and then redeploy to the edge. And so with MicroShift, we're able to do that in a way that's robust, that's repeatable, and that's automated. And that really instills trust in us and our customers that when we deploy new software capabilities to the edge over the air, like we did in this demonstration that they're going to run right on the target hardware. And so that's a huge advantage to what we're doing here that when we push software to the edge in real time we know it's going to run. >> And in realtime is absolutely critical. We talk about it in so many different industries. Oh, it's customers expect realtime access whether it's your banking app or whatnot. But here we're talking about literally life and death situations on the battlefield. So that realtime data access is literally life and death. >> It's paramount to what we're doing. In this case, the aircraft started with one role which was to go find a radio frequency admitter and then switch roles to then go get cameras and eyes on that. So where is that coming from? Are there people on the ground? Are there dangerous people on the ground? And it gives the end user on the ground complete situational awareness of what is actually happening. And that is key for enhanced decision making. Enhanced decision making is critical to what we're doing. And so that's really where we're advancing this technology and where we can save lives. >> I read a report from General Mattis when he was in service that a lot of the deaths are due to not having enough information really at the edge. >> Greg: Friendly fire. >> Friendly fire, a lot of stuff that goes on there. So this is really, really important. Nick, you're sitting there saying this is great. My customer's talking about the product. This is your innovation, Red Hat device edge in action. This is real. This is industrial- >> So it's more than real. Actually this type of use case is what convinced us to transform a technology we had been working on which is a small form factor of Kubernetes to transform it into a product. Because sometimes, US engineers have a tendency to invent stuff that are great on paper, but it's a solution trying to find a problem. And we need customers to work with us to make sure that do solution do solve a real problem. And Lockheed was great. Worked with us upstream on that project. Helped us prove out that the concept was actually worth it and we waited until Lockheed had tested the concept in the air. >> Okay, so Red Hat device edge and MicroShift, explain that, how that works real quick for the folks that don't know. So one of the thing we learned is that Kubernetes is great but it's only part of the journey. In order to get those workloads on those aircraft or in order to get those workloads in a factory, you also need to consider the full life cycle of the device itself. And you don't handle a device that is inside of a UAV or inside of a factory the same way you handle a server. You have to deal with those devices in a way that is much more akin to a setup box. So we had to modify how the OS was behaving to deal with devices and we reduced what we had built in real for each edge aspect and combined it with MicroShift and that's what became with that Red Hat device edge. >> We're in a low SWAP environment, space, weight and power, right? Or very limited, We're on a small UAS in this demonstration. So the ability to spool up and spool down containers and to save computing power and to do that on demand and orchestrate that with MicroShift is paramount to what we're doing. We wouldn't be able to do it without that capability. >> John: That's awesome. >> I want to get both of your opinions. Nick, we'll start with you and then Greg we'll go to you. In terms of MicroShift , what is its superpower? What differentiates it from other competing solutions in the market? >> So MicroShift is Kubernetes but reduced to the strict minimum of a runtime version of Kubernetes so that it takes a minimal footprint so that we maximize the space available for the workload in those very constraints environments. On a board where you have eight or 16 gig of RAM, if you use only two gig of that to run the infrastructure component, you leave the rest for the AI workload that you need on the drone. And that's what is really important. >> And these AI payloads, the inference that we're doing at the edge is very compute intensive. So again, the ability to manage that and orchestrate that is paramount to running on these very small board computers. These are small drones that don't have a lot of weight that don't allow a lot of space. >> John: Got to be efficient >> And be efficient with it. >> How were you guys involved? Talk about the relationship. So you guys were tightly involved. Talk about the roles you guys played together. Was it co-development? Was it customer/partner? Talk about the relationship. >> Yeah, so we started actually with satellite. So you can think of small cube sets in a very similar environment to a low powered UAV. And it started there. And then in the last, I would say year or so, Nick we have worked together to develop MicroShift. We work closely on Slack channels together like we're part of the same team. >> John: That's great. >> And hey Red Hat, this is what we need, this is what we're looking for. These are the constraints that we have. And this team has been amazing and just delivered on everything that we've asked for. >> I mean this is really an example of the innovation at the edge, industrial edge specifically. You got an operating system, you got form factor challenges, you got operating parameters. And just to having that flex, you can't just take this and put it over there. >> But it's what really is a community applied to an industrial context. So what happened there is we worked as part of the MicroShift community together with a real time communication channel, the same slack that anybody developing Kubernetes uses we've been using to identify where the problems were, how to solve them, bring new ideas and that's how we tackle these problems. >> Yeah, a true open source model I mean the Red Hat and the Lockheed teams were in it together on a daily basis communicating like we were part of the same company. And and that's really how you move these things forward. >> Yeah, and of course open source is great but also you got to lock down the security. How did you guys handle that? What's going on with the security? 'Cause you got to make sure no take over the devices. >> So the funny thing is that even though what we produce is highly inclusive of security concern, our development model is completely open. So it's not security biopurification, it's security because we apply the best practices. >> John: You see everything. >> Absolutely. >> Yes. >> And then you harden it in the joint development, there it is. >> Yeah, but what we support, what we offer as a product is the same for Lockheed or for any other customer because there is no domain where security is not important. When you control the recognition on a drone or where you control the behavior of a robot in a factory, security is paramount because you can't immobilize a country by infecting a robot the same way you could immobilize a military operation- >> Greg: That's right. >> By infecting a UAV. >> Not to change the subject, but I got to go on a tangent here cause it pops in my head. You mentioned cube set, not related to theCUBE of course. Where theCube for the video. Cube sets are very powerful. People can launch space right now very inexpensively. So it's a highly contested and congested environment. Any space activity going on around the corner with you guys? 'Cause remember the world's not around, it's edge is now in space. Mars is the edge. >> That's right. >> Our first prototype for MicroShift was actually a cube set. >> Greg: That's where it started. >> And IBM project, the project called Endurance. That's the first time we actually put MicroShift into use. And that was a very interesting project, very early version of MicroShift . And now we have talks with many other people on reproducing that at more industrial level this was more like a cool high school project. >> But to your point, the scalability across different platforms is there. If we're running on top of MicroShift on this common OS, it just eases the development. Behind the scenes, we have a whole AI factory at Lockheed Martin where we have a common ecosystem for how we actually develop and deploy these algorithms to the edge. And now we've got a common ecosystem at the edge. And so it helps that whole process to be able to do that in automated ways, repeatable ways so we can instill trust in our DRD customer that the validation of verification of this is a really important aspect. >> John: Must be a fun place to work. >> It is, it's exciting. There's endless opportunities. >> You must get a lot of young kids applying for those jobs. They're barely into the whole. I mean, AI's a hot feel and people want to get their hands on real applications. I was serious about space. Is there space activity going on with you guys or is it just now military edge, not yet military space? Or is that classified? >> Yeah, so we're working across multiple fronts, absolutely. >> That's awesome. >> What excite, oh, sorry John. What excites you most, never a dull moment with what you're doing, but just the potential to enable a safer, a more secure world, what excites you most about this partnership and the direction and the we'll say the trajectory it's going on? >> Yeah, I think, for me, the safer insecure world is paramount to what we're doing. We're here for national defense and for our allies and that's really critical to what we're doing. That's what motivates me. That's what gets me up in the morning to know that there is a soldier on the ground who will be using this technology and we will give be giving that person the situational awareness to make the right decisions at the right time. So we can go from small UAVs to larger aircraft or we can do it in a small confined edge device like a stalker UAV. We can scale this up to different products different platforms and they don't even have to be Lockheed Martin >> John: And more devices that are going to be imagined. >> More devices that we haven't even imagined yet. >> Right, that aren't even on the frontier yet. Nick, what's next from your perspective? >> In the domain we are in, next is always plenty of things. Sustainability is a huge domain right now on which we're working. We have lots of things going on in the AI space, stuff going on with Lockheed Martin. We have things going on in the radio network domain. We've been very heavily involved in telecommunication and this is constantly evolving. There is not one domain that, in terms of infrastructure Red Hat is not touching >> Well, this is the first of multiple demonstrations. The scenarios will get more complex with multiple aircraft and in the future, we're also looking at bringing a lot of the 5G work. Lockheed has put a large focus on 5G.mil for military applications and running some of those workloads on top of MicroShift as well is things to come in the future that we are already planning and looking at. >> Yeah, and it's needed in theater to have connectivity. Got to have your own connectivity. >> It's paramount, absolutely. >> Absolutely, it's paramount. It's game-changing. Guys, thank you so much for joining John and me on theCube talking about how Red Hat and Lockheed Martin are working together to leverage AI to really improve decision making and save more lives. It was a wonderful conversation. We're going to have to have you back 'cause we got to follow this. >> Yeah, of course. >> This was great, thank you so much. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> Lisa: Our pleasure, thank you. >> Greg: Really appreciate it. >> Excellent. For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from KubeCon CloudNativeCon '22 from Detroit. Stick around. Next guest is going to join John and Savannah in just a minute. (lighthearted music)

(inspirational music) >> The history of high performance computing is unique and storied. You know, it's generally accepted that the first true supercomputer was shipped in the mid 1960s by Controlled Data Corporations, CDC, designed by an engineering team led by Seymour Cray, the father of Supercomputing. He left CDC in the 70's to start his own company, of course, carrying his own name. Now that company Cray, became the market leader in the 70's and the 80's, and then the decade of the 80's saw attempts to bring new designs, such as massively parallel systems, to reach new heights of performance and efficiency. Supercomputing design was one of the most challenging fields, and a number of really brilliant engineers became kind of quasi-famous in their little industry. In addition to Cray himself, Steve Chen, who worked for Cray, then went out to start his own companies. Danny Hillis, of Thinking Machines. Steve Frank of Kendall Square Research. Steve Wallach tried to build a mini supercomputer at Convex. These new entrants, they all failed, for the most part because the market at the time just wasn't really large enough and the economics of these systems really weren't that attractive. Now, the late 80's and the 90's saw big Japanese companies like NEC and Fujitsu entering the fray and governments around the world began to invest heavily in these systems to solve societal problems and make their nations more competitive. And as we entered the 21st century, we saw the coming of petascale computing, with China actually cracking the top 100 list of high performance computing. And today, we're now entering the exascale era, with systems that can complete a billion, billion calculations per second, or 10 to the 18th power. Astounding. And today, the high performance computing market generates north of $30 billion annually and is growing in the high single digits. Supercomputers solve the world's hardest problems in things like simulation, life sciences, weather, energy exploration, aerospace, astronomy, automotive industries, and many other high value examples. And supercomputers are expensive. You know, the highest performing supercomputers used to cost tens of millions of dollars, maybe $30 million. And we've seen that steadily rise to over $200 million. And today we're even seeing systems that cost more than half a billion dollars, even into the low billions when you include all the surrounding data center infrastructure and cooling required. The US, China, Japan, and EU countries, as well as the UK, are all investing heavily to keep their countries competitive, and no price seems to be too high. Now, there are five mega trends going on in HPC today, in addition to this massive rising cost that we just talked about. One, systems are becoming more distributed and less monolithic. The second is the power of these systems is increasing dramatically, both in terms of processor performance and energy consumption. The x86 today dominates processor shipments, it's going to probably continue to do so. Power has some presence, but ARM is growing very rapidly. Nvidia with GPUs is becoming a major player with AI coming in, we'll talk about that in a minute. And both the EU and China are developing their own processors. We're seeing massive densities with hundreds of thousands of cores that are being liquid-cooled with novel phase change technology. The third big trend is AI, which of course is still in the early stages, but it's being combined with ever larger and massive, massive data sets to attack new problems and accelerate research in dozens of industries. Now, the fourth big trend, HPC in the cloud reached critical mass at the end of the last decade. And all of the major hyperscalers are providing HPE, HPC as a service capability. Now finally, quantum computing is often talked about and predicted to become more stable by the end of the decade and crack new dimensions in computing. The EU has even announced a hybrid QC, with the goal of having a stable system in the second half of this decade, most likely around 2027, 2028. Welcome to theCUBE's preview of SC22, the big supercomputing show which takes place the week of November 13th in Dallas. theCUBE is going to be there. Dave Nicholson will be one of the co-hosts and joins me now to talk about trends in HPC and what to look for at the show. Dave, welcome, good to see you. >> Hey, good to see you too, Dave. >> Oh, you heard my narrative up front Dave. You got a technical background, CTO chops, what did I miss? What are the major trends that you're seeing? >> I don't think you really- You didn't miss anything, I think it's just a question of double-clicking on some of the things that you brought up. You know, if you look back historically, supercomputing was sort of relegated to things like weather prediction and nuclear weapons modeling. And these systems would live in places like Lawrence Livermore Labs or Los Alamos. Today, that requirement for cutting edge, leading edge, highest performing supercompute technology is bleeding into the enterprise, driven by AI and ML, artificial intelligence and machine learning. So when we think about the conversations we're going to have and the coverage we're going to do of the SC22 event, a lot of it is going to be looking under the covers and seeing what kind of architectural things contribute to these capabilities moving forward, and asking a whole bunch of questions. >> Yeah, so there's this sort of theory that the world is moving toward this connectivity beyond compute-centricity to connectivity-centric. We've talked about that, you and I, in the past. Is that a factor in the HPC world? How is it impacting, you know, supercomputing design? >> Well, so if you're designing an island that is, you know, tip of this spear, doesn't have to offer any level of interoperability or compatibility with anything else in the compute world, then connectivity is important simply from a speeds and feeds perspective. You know, lowest latency connectivity between nodes and things like that. But as we sort of democratize supercomputing, to a degree, as it moves from solely the purview of academia into truly ubiquitous architecture leverage by enterprises, you start asking the question, "Hey, wouldn't it be kind of cool if we could have this hooked up into our ethernet networks?" And so, that's a whole interesting subject to explore because with things like RDMA over converged ethernet, you now have the ability to have these supercomputing capabilities directly accessible by enterprise computing. So that level of detail, opening up the box of looking at the Nix, or the storage cards that are in the box, is actually critically important. And as an old-school hardware knuckle-dragger myself, I am super excited to see what the cutting edge holds right now. >> Yeah, when you look at the SC22 website, I mean, they're covering all kinds of different areas. They got, you know, parallel clustered systems, AI, storage, you know, servers, system software, application software, security. I mean, wireless HPC is no longer this niche. It really touches virtually every industry, and most industries anyway, and is really driving new advancements in society and research, solving some of the world's hardest problems. So what are some of the topics that you want to cover at SC22? >> Well, I kind of, I touched on some of them. I really want to ask people questions about this idea of HPC moving from just academia into the enterprise. And the question of, does that mean that there are architectural concerns that people have that might not be the same as the concerns that someone in academia or in a lab environment would have? And by the way, just like, little historical context, I can't help it. I just went through the upgrade from iPhone 12 to iPhone 14. This has got one terabyte of storage in it. One terabyte of storage. In 1997, I helped build a one terabyte NAS system that a government defense contractor purchased for almost $2 million. $2 million! This was, I don't even know, it was $9.99 a month extra on my cell phone bill. We had a team of seven people who were going to manage that one terabyte of storage. So, similarly, when we talk about just where are we from a supercompute resource perspective, if you consider it historically, it's absolutely insane. I'm going to be asking people about, of course, what's going on today, but also the near future. You know, what can we expect? What is the sort of singularity that needs to occur where natural language processing across all of the world's languages exists in a perfect way? You know, do we have the compute power now? What's the interface between software and hardware? But really, this is going to be an opportunity that is a little bit unique in terms of the things that we typically cover, because this is a lot about cracking open the box, the server box, and looking at what's inside and carefully considering all of the components. >> You know, Dave, I'm looking at the exhibitor floor. It's like, everybody is here. NASA, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, Intel, HPE, AWS, all the hyperscale guys, Weka IO, Pure Storage, companies I've never heard of. It's just, hundreds and hundreds of exhibitors, Nvidia, Oracle, Penguin Solutions, I mean, just on and on and on. Google, of course, has a presence there, theCUBE has a major presence. We got a 20 x 20 booth. So, it's really, as I say, to your point, HPC is going mainstream. You know, I think a lot of times, we think of HPC supercomputing as this just sort of, off in the eclectic, far off corner, but it really, when you think about big data, when you think about AI, a lot of the advancements that occur in HPC will trickle through and go mainstream in commercial environments. And I suspect that's why there are so many companies here that are really relevant to the commercial market as well. >> Yeah, this is like the Formula 1 of computing. So if you're a Motorsports nerd, you know that F1 is the pinnacle of the sport. SC22, this is where everybody wants to be. Another little historical reference that comes to mind, there was a time in, I think, the early 2000's when Unisys partnered with Intel and Microsoft to come up with, I think it was the ES7000, which was supposed to be the mainframe, the sort of Intel mainframe. It was an early attempt to use... And I don't say this in a derogatory way, commodity resources to create something really, really powerful. Here we are 20 years later, and we are absolutely smack in the middle of that. You mentioned the focus on x86 architecture, but all of the other components that the silicon manufacturers bring to bear, companies like Broadcom, Nvidia, et al, they're all contributing components to this mix in addition to, of course, the microprocessor folks like AMD and Intel and others. So yeah, this is big-time nerd fest. Lots of academics will still be there. The supercomputing.org, this loose affiliation that's been running these SC events for years. They have a major focus, major hooks into academia. They're bringing in legit computer scientists to this event. This is all cutting edge stuff. >> Yeah. So like you said, it's going to be kind of, a lot of techies there, very technical computing, of course, audience. At the same time, we expect that there's going to be a fair amount, as they say, of crossover. And so, I'm excited to see what the coverage looks like. Yourself, John Furrier, Savannah, I think even Paul Gillin is going to attend the show, because I believe we're going to be there three days. So, you know, we're doing a lot of editorial. Dell is an anchor sponsor, so we really appreciate them providing funding so we can have this community event and bring people on. So, if you are interested- >> Dave, Dave, I just have- Just something on that point. I think that's indicative of where this world is moving when you have Dell so directly involved in something like this, it's an indication that this is moving out of just the realm of academia and moving in the direction of enterprise. Because as we know, they tend to ruthlessly drive down the cost of things. And so I think that's an interesting indication right there. >> Yeah, as do the cloud guys. So again, this is mainstream. So if you're interested, if you got something interesting to talk about, if you have market research, you're an analyst, you're an influencer in this community, you've got technical chops, maybe you've got an interesting startup, you can contact David, david.nicholson@siliconangle.com. John Furrier is john@siliconangle.com. david.vellante@siliconangle.com. I'd be happy to listen to your pitch and see if we can fit you onto the program. So, really excited. It's the week of November 13th. I think November 13th is a Sunday, so I believe David will be broadcasting Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Really excited. Give you the last word here, Dave. >> No, I just, I'm not embarrassed to admit that I'm really, really excited about this. It's cutting edge stuff and I'm really going to be exploring this question of where does it fit in the world of AI and ML? I think that's really going to be the center of what I'm really seeking to understand when I'm there. >> All right, Dave Nicholson. Thanks for your time. theCUBE at SC22. Don't miss it. Go to thecube.net, go to siliconangle.com for all the news. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and for Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you in Dallas. (inquisitive music)

(melodic music) >> Good afternoon. Welcome back to Chicago. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. Day one of our coverage of Ansible Fest 2022. John, it's great to be back in person. People are excited to be here. >> Yeah. We've had some great conversations with folks from Ansible and the community and the partner side. >> Yeah. One of the things I always love talking about John, is talking with organizations that have been around for a long time that maybe history, maybe around nearly a hundred years, how are they embracing technology to modernize? Yeah, we got a great segment here with the financial services leader, end user of Ansible. So it's be great segment. >> Absolutely. Please welcome Noor Shadid to the program, the senior SVP, excuse me, senior technology manager at Wells Fargo. Noor it's great to have you on theCUBE. Thank you for joining us. >> Of course. Happy to be here. >> Thanks. >> Talk a little bit about technology at Wells Fargo. I was mentioning to you I've been a longtime customer and I've seen the bank evolve incredibly so in the years I've been with it. But... >> Yeah. >> ...talk about Wells Fargo was a technology-driven company. >> Yeah. So I like to consider Wells, right? Being in a financial institution company. So I consider us a technology company that does banking as a customer, right? Like we were talking about. There's so much that we've been able to release over the couple of years, right? I mean, decades worth of automation and technology has been coming out, but lately, right? The way we provide for our customers, how fast at scale, what we're doing for our customers, it's been, it's been significant, right? And I think our goal is always how can we enhance the process for our customers and how can we provide them the next best thing? And I think technology has really allowed us to evolve with our customers. >> The customers. We are so demanding these days. Right? I think one of the things that short supplied in the last two years was patience and tolerance. >> Yes. >> People. And I don't think that's going to rubber band back? >> Yeah. No, I don't think so. >> So how, talk to us about how Wells is using automation to really drive innovation and, surprise and delight those customers on a minute by minute basis. >> Yeah. And so, you know, if you think about banking, we've been able, with automation, we've been able to bring banking into the 21st century. You do not have to go to a branch to manage your money anymore. You do not have to go, you know, go to deposit your check inside of a branch. You can do it through your mobile app, right? That's driven by automation and innovation, right? And, you know, we have all of these back ends tools working for us to help get us to this next generation of, of banking. We can instantly send money to each other. We don't have to worry about, I need to go and figure out how I'm going to get money to this person and I need to wait, you know, X amount of days. You, you have the ability and you have, you feel safe being able to manage your money at the organization. And so automation has really allowed us to get to this place where we can constantly enhance and provide features and reliability to our customers. >> It's interesting you mentioned that you guys are a technology can have it do banking reminds me of the old iPhone analogy. It's a computer that happens to make phone calls. >> Yeah. >> So like, this is the similar mindset. How do you guys keep up? >> Yeah. >> With the technology? >> So it's tough, right? Because there's so much that comes out. And I think the only thing that's constant in technology is change, right? Because it's constantly evolving. But what we do is we, integrate very well with these new tools. We do proof of concepts where we try to, you know, what's on the market, what's hot, how can we involve, like, how can we involve these new tools in our processes? How can we provide a better end result for our customers by bringing in these new tools? So we have a lot of different teams that bring, you know, their jobs are to like, do these proof of concepts and help us build and evolve our own strategies, right? So it keeps us, it keeps us on our toes and I think it keeps, you know, all these new things that are coming out in the market. We're a part of it. We want to evolve with those, what the latest and greatest is. And it's, it's been working right as customers of financial services and us managing our money through, you know, through banks. It's been great. >> So the business is the application. >> Yes. >> And how do you guys make that happen when it comes down to getting the teams aligned? What's the culture like? Explain. >> Yeah. So at Wells we have evolved so much over the, over the last few years. The culture right now is we want to make changes. You know, we are making changes. We want to drive through innovation. We want to be able to provide our, you know, it's a developer centric approach right now, right? We want to push to the next and the greatest. And so everybody is excited and everybody's adapting to all of what's happening in the environment right now. So it's been great because we are able to use all of these new features and tools and things that we were just talking about by allowing our developers to do that work and allowing people to learn these new skills and be able to apply them in their jobs, which is now creating this, you know, a better result for our customers because we're releasing at such a faster pace. And at scale. >> Talk about how, you talked about multiple groups in the organization really investing in innovative technology. How do you get buy-in? What's that sort of pyramid like up to the top level? >> Yeah. >> Because to your point, you're making changes very quickly and consumers demand it. >> Yep. >> You can do everything from home these days. >> Yep. >> You don't have to go into a branch. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Which has changed dramatically in the last it's. >> Powerful few years. Yeah. >> But how, what's that buy-in conversation like from our leadership? >> Yeah. If you don't have leadership buy-in, it's very difficult to make those changes happen. But we at Wells have such a strong support from our leadership to be a part of the change and be, you know, constantly evolve and get better. So the way we work, cause we're such a large organization, you know, we bring in our business, you know, our business teams and we talk to them about what is it that's best going to better our customers. How do we also not just support external but internal, right? How do we provide these automated tools or processes for people to want to do this next work and, and do these, you know, these new releases for our customers. And so we bring in our business partners and, and we bring in our leadership and, our stakeholders and we kind of present to them, you know, this is what we're trying to do. This is the return that you'll get. This is what our customers will also receive. And this is, you know, this is how we keep evolving with that. >> How has the automation culture changed? Because big discussion here is reuse, teamwork, I call it multiplayer kind of organizations where people are working together. 'Cause that's a big theme of automation. >> Yeah. >> Reuse, leverage. >> Yep. >> Can you explain how you guys look at that? >> Yeah. It's changed the way that we do banking because we're eliminating a lot of the repetitive tasks in the toil because we have partners that are developing these, you know, services. So specifically with Ansible, we have these playbooks, rather than having every customer write the same playbook but with their own little, you know, flavor to it, we're able to create these generic patterns that customers can just consume simply by just going into a tool, filling out you know, filling out that playbook template, credentials, or whatever it is that they need and executing it. They don't have to worry about developing something from scratch. And it also allows our customers to feel safe because they don't have to have those skills out the box to be able to use these automation tools, right? They can use what's already been written and executed. >> So that make things go faster with the benefits or what? Speed? >> Faster stability, right? We're now speed, stability, scalability, because we're now able to use this at scale. It's not just individual teams trying to do this within small spaces. We're able to reliable, right? Automation allows us to be reliable internally and for our customers. Because you're not asking, there's no human intervention when you're automating, right? You have these opportunities now for people to just, it's one click, you know, one click solution or you're, you're end to end. You got self-healing involved. It's really driving the way that we do our work today. >> So automation sounds like it's really fueling the internal employee experience at Wells... >> Yes. >> ...as well as the customer experience. And those two things are like this to me. They're inextricably linked. >> A hundred percent because if you need it, they need to be together, right? You want your internal to also be happy because they want to be able to develop these solutions and provide these automation opportunities for our teams, right? And so with the customers, they're constantly seeing these great features come out, right? We can, you know, with AIML today, we're now able to detect fraud significantly. What we would've, what we could've done a couple years ago. And, and developers are excited to be able to do that, right? To be able to learn all these new tools and new technologies. >> What's interesting Wells is you guys are like an edge application. Obviously everyone's got banking in their hand. FinTech obviously money's involved. So there's people interested in getting that money. >> Yeah. >> Security hackers or whatnot. So when you got speed and you got the consistency, I get that. As you look at securing the app, that becomes a big part of what, what's the conversations like there? >> Yeah. >> 'Cause that's the number one concern. And it's an Edge app. I got my mobile, I got my desktop. >> Yeah. >> Everything's in the cloud on premise. >> Yeah. And, and I think for us, security is number one. You know, we want to make sure that we are providing the best for our customers and that they feel safe. Banking, whatever financial service you're working with, you want to feel like you can trust that your money with those services. Right? So what we do is we make sure that our security partners are with us from day one. They're a part of the process. They're automating their pieces as well. We don't want to rely on humans to do a lot of the manual work and do the checking and the logging. You want it to be through automation and new tools, right? You want it to be done through trusted services. You don't, you know, security is right there with us. They're part of our technology organization. They are in the technology org. So they're the ones that are helping us get to that next generation to provide, you know, more secure processes and services for customers. >> And that's key for trust. >> Yes. >> And trust is critical to reduce churn and to, you know, increase the customer lifetime value. But, but people, I mean, especially with the amount of generations that are alive today in banking, you need to be able to deliver that trust intrinsically to any customer. >> Yes, a hundred percent. And you want to be able to not only trust the service but yourself that you can do it. You know, when you go into your app and you make a payment, or when you go in and you want to send, you know, you want to send money to a different, you know, a different bank account, you want to be able to know that what you just did is secure and is where you plan to send it. And so being able to create that environment and provide those services is, is everything right for our customers. >> What are some of the state-of-the-art kind of techniques or trade craft around building apps? 'Cause I mean, basically you're digitally transformed. I mean, you guys are technology first. >> Yeah. >> The app is the company. >> Yeah. >> That's, that's the bank. How do you stay current? What's some of the state of the art things that you guys do that wasn't around just a few years ago? >> Yeah, I mean, right now just using, we're using tools like Terraform and Ansible. We're making sure that those two are hand in hand working well together. So when we work on provisioning, when we, during provisioning where it's all, you know, it's automated, fully end to end, you know, AI ops, right? Being able to detect reoccurring issues that are happening. So if you have a incident we want to learn from that incident and we want to be able to create, you know, incident tickets without having to rely on a human to find that, you know, that problem that was occurring and self-healing, right? All of this is starting to evolve and bringing in the, the proper alerting tools, bringing in the pro, you know, the right automation tools to allow that self-healing to work. That's, you know, these are things that we didn't have, you know, year, decade ago. This is all coming out now as we're starting to progress and, and really take innovation and, you know, automation itself.... >> What's the North star internally when you guys say, hey, you know, down five years down the road, bridge to the future, we're transforming, we've continued to innovate. Scale is a big deal. Data, data sovereignty, all these things are coming up. And what's the internal conversation like when you talk about a future state? >> Yeah, I think right now we're on our cloud transformation journey, right? We're moving right now. We have workloads into our two CSPs or public cloud. Also providing a better service for infrastructure and being able to provide services internally at a faster space, right? So moving into the public cloud, making sure everything's virtualized, moving away from hard, you know, physical hardware or physical servers. That's kind of the journey that we're on right now. Right? Also, machine learning. We want to be able to rely on these, you know, bots. We want to be able to rely on, on things learning from what we're doing so that we don't make the same mistakes again. >> Where would you say the most value or the highest ROI that you've gotten from automation today? Where is that in the organization? >> There's so much, but what I mean because of all of the work that we're doing, there's a lot that I could list, but what I will say is that the ability to allow self-healing in our environments without causing issues is a very big return. Automating failovers, right? I think a lot of our financial institutions have made that a priority where they want to make sure that their applications are active, active and also that when things do go wrong, there is something in place to make sure that that incident actually doesn't, you know, take down any problems. I think it's just also investing in people. Right now, the market is hot and we want to make sure that people feel like they're being able to contribute, they're using the latest and greatest tools. They're able to upskill within our own environments at the firm. And I think our organization does an amazing job of prioritizing people. And so we see the return because we're prioritizing people. And I think, you know, a lot of institutions are trying, you know, people first, people first. But I can say that at Wells, because we are actually driving this, we're allowing, you know, we're enforcing that. We want our engineers to get the certifications. We're providing, you know, vouchers so that people can get those clouds certifications. It's when you do that and you put people first, everything kind of comes together. And I think, you know, a lot of what we see in our industry, it's not really the technology that's the problem, it's process because you're so, you know, we're working at large scales. Our environments are massive. So, you know, my three years at Wells have seen a significant amount of change that has really driven us to be.... >> On that point better. How about changing of the roles? IT, I mean, back in the day, IT serves the business, you know, IT is the business now, right? As, as you've been pointing out. What does the roles change of as automation scales in, is it the operator? I mean, we know what's going on with dev's devs are doing more IT in the CICD pipe lining. >> Yep. >> So we see that velocity check, good cloud native development. What's the op scene look like? It seems to be a multi-tool role. >> Yeah. >> Where the versatility of the skill set... >> Yep. >> ...is the quick learner. >> Yep, able to adapt. >> And yeah, what's your view on this new persona that's emerging from this new opportunity? >> Yeah, and I think it's a great question because if you think about where we're going, and even the term DevOps, right? It means so many things to different people. But literally when you think about what DevOps is allowing our developers and our operations to work together on one team, it's allowing, you know, our operation engineers aren't, you know, years ago, ops engineers were not doing the development work. They were relying on somebody to do the development work and they were just supporting making sure our systems were always available, right? Our engineers are ops are now doing the development work. They're able to contribute and to get, they're writing their own playbooks. They're able to take them into production and ensure that they're, being used correctly. We are change driven execution organization. Everything is driven through change and allowing our ops engineers or production score engineers to write their own playbooks, right? And they know what's happening in the environment. It's powerful. >> Yeah. You're seeing DevOps become a job title. >> Yeah (laughs). >> Used to be like a function of philosophy... >> Yeah, yeah. >> ... and then SRE's... >> SRE's. >> SRE are like how many servers do you have? I don't know, a cloud, what's next? (all laugh) >> What's next? Yeah, I think with SREs it's, you know, it's important that if you have site reliability engineers, you're working towards, you know, those non-functional requirements... >> Yeah. >> ...making sure that you're handling those key components that are required to ensure that our systems, our applications and our integrations, you know, are up there and they're meeting the standards that we set for those other faults. >> And, and I think Red Hat Ansible nailed it here because infrastructure is code. We get that infrastructure has configuration as code, but OPS says code really is that SRE outcome. SRE also came from the Google background, but that means infrastructure's just doing, it's thing. >> Yes. >> The ops is automated. >> Yes. >> That's an interesting concept. >> Yeah, because it's not, you know, it's still new, right? A lot of organizations used to see, and they probably still see operations as being the, you know, their role is just to make sure that the lights are on and they have specific access so they, you know, they're not touching code, but the people that are doing the work and know the environment should really be the ones under creating the content for it. So yeah, I mean it's crazy what's happening now. >> So I got an analogy that's going to be banking analogy, but for tech, you know, back in the automation, Oh, going to put my job out of business, ATMs are going to put the teller out of business as more tellers now than there are before the ATMs. So that metaphor applies into tech where people are like, "What am I auto? What's automating away? Is it my job?" And so actually people know it's not. >> Yeah. >> But what does that free up? So if you assume, if you believe that's good, you say, okay, all the grunt work and the low level on differentiated heavy lifting gets automated away. >> Yeah. >> Great. What does that free up the talent to do? >> Yeah, so when you, and that's great that you bring it up because I think people fear, you know, of automation, especially people that weren't doing automation in the past and now their roles are now they're able to automate those roles out. They're fearful that they don't have a space, a role anymore. But that's not the case at all. What we prioritize is now that those new engineers have this new skill set, apply them. Start using it to be a part of this transformation, right? We're moving from, we went from physical to virtual to now, you know, we're moving into the public, moving into the cloud, right? And that, that transformation, you need people who are ramping up their skill sets, you know, being a part of one of the tools that I own is terraform at Wells that, you know, right now our priority is we're trying to ramp up the organization to learn terraform, right? We want people to learn, you know, this new syntax, this new, you know, HCL and it's, you know, people have been automating some of the stuff that they're doing in their day to day and now trying to learn something new so that they can contribute to this new transformation. >> So new functionality, higher value services? >> Yes, yeah. >> It brings tremendous opportunity for those folks involved in automation. >> Yes. >> or on so many levels. >> Yep. >> Last question, Noor for you is what, you know, as we are rounding out calendar year 2022, entering into 2023, that patience is, that we talked about is still not coming back. What's next for Wells as a technology company that does banking? >> I mean, you name it, we're working on it, because we want to be able to deliver the best for our customers. And I think right now, you know, our digital transformation strategy and, and moving into the public cloud and getting our applications re-architected so that we are moving into microservice driven apps, right? We're moving these workloads into the public cloud in a seamless way. We're not lifting and shifting so that we're not causing more problems into the environment. Right. And I think our, our, our goal is right, Like I was saying earlier, people and evolving with the technology that's coming out. We're not, you know, we are a part of the change and we are happy to be a part of that change and making those changes happen. >> People first. >> Awesome, awesome stuff. >> Automation first sounds outstanding and I will never look at Wells Fargo as a bank again. >> Yeah. (laughter) >> Perfect. Perfect. >> Yeah, that's awesome. >> It's been such a pleasure having you on the program, talking about how transformative Wells has been and continues to be. >> Yeah. >> We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. It was lovely being her. Pleasure here. Thank you guys. >> For our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching theCUBE all day, I'm sure, live from Chicago at Ansible Fest 2022. We hope you have a wonderful rest of your day and John and I will see you tomorrow morning.

>>Welcome to this Q conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson. And today we are joined by Andrew ish and Chris Y Moran, both from Gentech. Andrew is the vice president of marketing. Chris John is the, uh, vice president of product engineering, gentlemen, welcome to the cube. >>Welcome David. Thanks for having us. Hey, >>David, thanks for having us on your show. >>Absolutely. Give us just, let's start out by, uh, giving us some background on, on Gentech. How would you describe to a relative coming over and asking you what you do for a living? What Genotech does? >>Well, I'll take a shot at that. I'm the marketing guy, David, but, uh, I think the best way to think of Genotech first and foremost is a software company. We, uh, we do a really good job of bringing together all of that physical security sensor network onto a platform. So people can make sense out of the data that comes from video surveillance, cameras, access control, reads, license plate recognition, cameras, and from a whole host of different sensors that can live out there in the world. Temperature, sensors, microwaves, all sorts of stuff. So we're a company that's really good at making sense of complex data from sensors. That's kind of, I think that's kind of what we >>Do and, and, and we focus specifically on like larger, complex, critical infrastructure type projects, whether they be airports, uh, large enterprise campuses and whatnot. So we're not necessarily your well known consumer type brand. >>So you mentioned physical, you mentioned physical security. Um, what about the intersection between physical security and, and cyber security who are, who are the folks that you work with directly as customers and where do they, where do they sit in that spectrum of cyber versus physical? >>So we predominantly work with physical security professionals and, uh, they typically are responsible for the security of a facility, a campus, a certain area. And we'll talk about security cameras. We'll talk about access control devices with card readers and, and, and locks, uh, intrusion detection, systems, fences, and whatnot. So anything that you would see that physically protects a facility. And, uh, what's actually quite interesting is that, you know, cybersecurity, we, we hear about cybersecurity and depressed all the time, right. And who's been hacked this week is typically like, uh, a headline that we're all like looking at, uh, we're looking for in the news. Um, so we actually do quite a lot of, I would say education work with the physical security professional as it pertains to the importance of cyber security in the physical security system, which in and of itself is an information system. Right. Um, so you don't wanna put a system in place to protect your facility that is full of cybersecurity holes because at that point, you know, your physical security systems becomes, uh, your weakest link in your security chain. Uh, the way I like to say it is, you know, there's no such thing as physical security versus cyber security, it's just security. Uh, really just the concept or a context of what threat vectors does this specific control or mechanism actually protects against >>Those seem to be words to live by, but are, are they aspirational? I mean, do you, do you see gaps today, uh, between the worlds of cyber and physical security? >>I mean, for sure, right? Like we, physical security evolved from a different part of the enterprise, uh, structure then did it or cyber security. So they, they come at things from a different angle. Um, so, you know, for a long time, the two worlds didn't really meet. Uh, but now what we're seeing, I would say in the last 10 years, Christian, about that, there's a huge convergence of cyber security with physical security. It, so information technology with operation technology really coming together quite tightly in the industry. And I think leading companies and sophisticated CISOs are really giving a big pitcher thought to what's going on across the organization, not just in cybersecurity. >>Yeah. I think we've come a long way from CCTV, which stands for closed circuit television, uh, which was typically like literally separated from the rest of the organization, often managed by the facilities, uh, part of any organization. Uh, and now we're seeing more and more organizations where this is converging together, but there's still ways to go, uh, to get this proper convergence in place. But, you know, we're getting there. >>How, how does Gentech approach its addressable market? Is this, is this a direct model? Uh, do you work with partners? What, what does that look like in your world? >>Well, we're a, we're a partner led company Gentech, you know, model on many friends is all about our partners. So we go to market through our integration channel. So we work with really great integrators all around the world. Um, and they bring together our software platform, which is usually forms the nucleus of sort of any O T security network. Uh, they bring that together with all sorts of other things, such as the sensor network, the cabling, all of that. It's a very complex multiplayer world. And also in that, you know, partnership ecosystem and Christian, this is more your world. We have to build deep integrations with all of these companies that build sensors, whether that's access, Bosch, Canon, uh, Hanoi, you know, we're, we're really working with them them. And of course with our storage and server partners >>Like Dell >>Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. So we have, we have like hundreds of, I would say ecosystem partners, right? Camera manufacturers, uh, access control reader, controller manufacturers, intrusion detection, manufacturers, late LIDAR radar, you know, the list goes on and on and on. And, and basically we bring this all together. The system integrator really is going to pick best of breed based on a specific end customer's I would say requirements and then roll out the system. According >>That's very interesting, you know, at, at Silicon angle on the cube, um, we've initiated coverage of this subject of the question, does hardware still matter? And, and you know, of course we're, we're approaching that primarily from kind of the traditional it, uh, perspective, but you said at the outset, you you're a software company mm-hmm <affirmative>, but clearly correct me if I'm wrong, your software depends upon all of these hardware components and as they improve, I imagine you can do things that maybe you couldn't do before those improvements. The first thing that comes to mind is just camera resolution. Um, you know, sort of default today is 4k, uh, go back five years, 10 years. I imagine that some of the sophisticated things that you can do today weren't possible because the hardware was lagging. Is that, is that a, is that a fair assessment? >>Oh, that's a fair assessment. Just going back 20 years ago. Uh, just VGA resolution on a security camera was like out of this world resolution, uh, even more so if it was like full motion, 30 images per second. So you typically have like, probably even like three 20 by 2 44 images per second, like really lousy resolution, just from a resolution perspective, the, the imagery sensors have, have really increased in terms of what they can provide, but even more so is the horsepower of these devices. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> now it's not uncommon to have, uh, pretty, pretty powerful Silicon in those devices now that can actually run machine learning models and you can actually do computer vision and analytics straight into the device. Uh, as you know, in some of the initial years, you would actually run this on kind of racks of servers in this data center. >>Now you can actually distribute those workloads across on the edge. And what we're seeing is, you know, the power that the edge provides is us as a software company, we have the opportunity to actually bring our workloads where it makes most sense. And in some cases we'll actually also have a ground station kind of in between the sensors and potentially the cloud, uh, because the use case just, uh, calls for it. Uh, just looking from a, from a, from a video security perspective, you know, when you have hundreds or thousands of cameras on an airport, it's just not economical or not even feasible in some cases to bring all that footage to the cloud even more so when 99% of that footage is never watched by anybody. So what's the point. Uh, so you just wanna provide the clips that, that actually do matter to the cloud and for longer term retention, you also want to be able to have sometimes more resilient systems, right? So what happens if the cloud disconnects, you can stop the operations of that airport or stop that operations of that, of that prison, right? It needs to continue to operate and therefore you need higher levels of resiliency. So you do need that hardware. So it's really a question of what it calls for and having the right size type of hardware so that you don't overly complexify the installation, uh, and, and actually get the job done. Are >>You comparing airports to prisons >>Christian? Well, nowadays they're pretty much prepared <laugh>, >>But I mean, this is exactly it, David, but I mean, this payload, especially from the video surveillance, like the, the workload that's going through to the, these ground stations really demands flexible deployment, right? So like we think about it as edge to cloud and, uh, you know, that's, what's really getting us excited because it, it gives so much more flexibility to the, you know, the C I S O and security professionals in places like prisons, airports, also large scale retail and banking, and, uh, other places, >>Universities, the list goes on and on and on, and >>On the flexibility of deployment just becomes so much easier because these are lightweight, you usually word deploying on a Linux box and it can connect seamlessly with like large scale head end storage or directly to, uh, cloud providers. It's, it's really a sophisticated new way of looking at how you architect out these networks. >>You've just given, you've just given a textbook example of why, uh, folks in the it world have been talking about hybrid cloud for, for, for such a long time, and some have scoffed at the idea, but you just, you just present a perfect use case for that combination of leveraging cloud with, uh, on-premises hardware and tracking with hardware advances, um, uh, on, on the subject of camera resolution. I don't know if you've seen this meme, but there's a great one with the, the first deep field image from the, from the, I was gonna say humble, the James web space telescope, uh, in contrast with a security camera F photo, which is really blurry of someone in your driveway <laugh>, uh, which is, which is, uh, sort of funny. The reality though, is I've seen some of these latest generation security cameras, uh, you know, beyond 4k resolution. And it's amazing just, you know, the kind of detail that you can get into, but talk about what what's, what's exciting in your world. What's, what's Gentech doing, you know, over the next, uh, several quarters that's, uh, particularly interesting what's on the leading edge of your, of your world. >>Well, I think right now what's on the leading edges is being driven by our end users. So the, so the, the companies, the governments, the organizations that are implementing our software into these complex IOT networks, they wanna do more with that data, right? It's not just about, you know, monitoring surveillance. It's not just about opening and closing doors or reading license plates, but more and more we're seeing organizations taking this bigger picture view of the data that is generated in their organizations and how they can take value out of existing investments that they've made in sensor networks, uh, and to take greater insight into operations, whether that can be asset utilization, customer service efficiency, it becomes about way more than just, you know, either physical security or cyber security. It becomes really an enterprise shaping O T network. And to us, that is like a massive, massive opportunity, uh, in the, in the industry today. >>Yeah. >>Now you're you're you're oh, go ahead. I'm sorry, Christian, go ahead. Yeah, >>No, it's, it's, it's good. But, you know, going back to a comment that I mentioned earlier about how it was initially siloed and now, you know, we're kind of discovering this diamond in the rough, in terms of all these sensors that are out there, which a lot of organizations didn't even know existed or didn't even know they had. And how can you bring that on kind of across the organizations for non-security related applications? So that's kind of one very interesting kind of, uh, direction that we're, that we've been undergoing for the last few years, and then, you know, security, uh, and physical security for that matter often is kind of the bastard step child. Doesn't get all the budget and, you know, there's lots of opportunities for, to help them increase and improve their operations, uh, as, as Andrew pointed out and really help bringing them into the 21st century. >>Yeah. >>And you're, you're headquartered in Montreal, correct? >>Yes. >>Yeah. So, so the reason, the reason why that's interesting is because, um, and, you know, correct me if I'm, if I'm off base here, but, but you're sort of the bridge between north America and Europe. Uh, and, and, uh, and so you sit at that nexus where, uh, you probably have more of an awareness of, uh, trends in security, which overlap with issues of privacy. Yeah. Where Europe has led in a lot of cases. Um, some of those European like rules are coming to north America. Um, is there anything in your world that is particularly relevant or that concerns you about north America catching up, um, or, or do those worlds of privacy and security not overlap as much as I might think they do? >>Ah, thank you. Any >>Thoughts? >>Absolutely not. No, no. <laugh> joking aside. This is, this is, this is, >>Leave me hanging >><laugh>, uh, this is actually core to our DNA. And, and, and we, we often say out loud how, like Europe has really paved the way for a different way, uh, of, of looking at privacy from a security setting, right. And they're not mutually exclusive. Right. You can have high security all while protecting people's privacy. And it's all of a question of ensuring that, you know, how you kind of, I would say, uh, ethically, uh, use said technology and we can actually put some safeguards in it. So to minimize the likelihood of there being abuse, right? There's, there's something that we do, which we call the privacy protector, which, you know, for all intents and purposes, it's not that complex of an idea. It's, it's really the concept of you have security cameras in a public space or a more sensitive location. And you have your security guards that can actually watch that footage when nothing really happens. >>You, you want to protect people's privacy in these situations. Uh, however, you still want to be able to provide a view to the security guard so they can still make out that, you know, there there's actually people walking around or there's a fight that broke out. And in the likelihood that something did happen, then you can actually view the overall footage. So, and with, with the details that the cameras that you had, you know, the super high mega pixel cameras that you have will provide. So we blur the images of the individuals. We still keep the background. And once you have the proper authorization, and this is based on the governance of the organization, so it can be a four I principle where it could be the chief security officer with the chief privacy officer need to authorize this footage to be kind of UN blurred. And at that point you can UN blur the footage and provide it to law enforcement for the investigation, for example. >>Excellent. I've got Andrew, if you wanted, then I, then I'm. Well, so I, I've a, I have a final question for you. And this comes out of a game that, uh, some friends and I, some friends of mine and I devised over the years, primarily this is played with strangers that you meet on airplanes as you're traveling. But the question you ask is in your career, what you're doing now and over the course of your careers, um, what's the most shocking thing <laugh> that people would learn from what, you know, what do you, what do you find? What's the craziest thing. When you go in to look at these environments that you see that people should maybe address, um, well, go ahead and start with you, Andrew. >>I, >>The most shocking thing you see every day in your world, >>It's very interesting. The most shocking thing I think we've seen in the industry is how willing, uh, some professionals are in our industry to install any kind of device on their networks without actually taking the time to do due diligence on what kind of security risks these devices can have on a network. Because I think a lot of people don't think about a security camera as first and foremost, a computer, and it's a computer with an IP address on a network, and it has a visual sensor, but we always get pulled in by that visual sensor. Right. And it's like, oh, it's a camera. No, it's a computer. And, you know, over the last, I would say eight years in the industry, we've spent a lot of time trying to sensitize the industry to the fact that, you know, you can't just put devices on your, your network without understanding the supply chain, without understanding the motives behind who's put these together and their track record of cybersecurity. So probably the weirdest thing that I've seen in my, um, you know, career in this industry is just the willingness of people not to take time to do due diligence before they hook something up on onto their corporate network where, you know, data can start leaking out, being exfiltrated by those devices and malevolent actors behind them. So gotta ask questions about what you put on your network. >>Christian, did he steal your, did he steal your thunder? Do you have any other, any other thoughts? >>Well, so first of all, there's things I just cannot say on TV. Okay. But you can't OK. >>You can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Saying that you're shocked that not everyone speaks French doesn't count. Okay. Let's just get, let's get past that, but, but go, but yeah, go ahead. Any thoughts? >>So, uh, you know, I, I would say something that I I've seen a lot and, and specifically with customers sometimes that were starting to shop for a new system is you'd be surprised by first of all, there's a camera, the likelihood of actually somebody watching it live while you're actually in the field of view of that camera is close to Neil first and foremost, second, there's also a good likelihood that that camera doesn't even record. It actually is not even functional. And, and I would say a lot of organizations often realize that, you know, that camera was not functioning when they actually knew do need to get the footage. And we've seen this with some large incidents, uh, very, uh, bad incidents that happened, uh, whether in the UK or in Boston or whatnot, uh, when they're, when law enforcement is trying to get footage and they realize that a lot of cameras actually weren't recording and, and, and goes back to Andrew's point in terms of the selection process of these devices. >>Yeah. Image resolution is important, like, because you need an, an image that it actually usable so that you can actually do something with it forensically, but you know, these cameras need to be recorded by a reliable system and, and should something happen with the device. And there's always going to be something, you know, power, uh, uh, a bird ate the lens. I don't know what it might be, or squirrel ate the wire. Um, and the camera doesn't work anymore. So you have to replace it. So having a system that provides, you know, you with like health insights in terms of, of, of if it's working or not is, is actually quite important. It needs to be managed like any it environment, right? Yeah. You have all these devices and if one of them goes down, you need to manage it. And most organizations it's fire and forget, I sign a purchase order. I bought my security system, I installed it. It's done. We move on to the next one and seven years later, something bad happens. And like, uhoh, >>It's not a CCTV system. It's a network. Yeah. Life cycle management counts. >>Well, uh, I have to say on that, uh, I'm gonna be doing some research on Canadian birds and squirrels. I, I had no idea, >>Very hungry. >>Andrew, Chris, John, thank you so much. Great conversation, uh, from all of us here at the cube. Thanks for tuning in. Stay tuned. The cube from Silicon angle media, we are your leader in tech coverage.

[Music] welcome to the great super cloud debate a power panel of three top technology industry analysts maribel lopez is here she's the founder and principal analyst at lopez research keith townsend is ceo and founder of the cto advisor and sanjeev mohan is principal at sanjmo super cloud is a term that we've used to describe the future of cloud architectures the idea is that super clouds are built on top of hyperscaler capex infrastructure and the idea is it goes beyond multi-cloud the premise being that multi-cloud is primarily a symptom of multi-vendor or m a or both and results in more stove we're going to talk about that super cloud's meant to connote a new architecture that leverages the underlying primitives of hyperscale clouds but hides and abstracts that complexity of each of their respective clouds and adds new value on top of that with services and a continuous experience a similar or identical experience across more than one cloud people may say hey that's multi-cloud we're going to talk about that as well so with that as brief background um i'd like to first welcome our painless guys thanks so much for coming on thecube it's great to see you all again great to be here thank you to be here so i'm going to start with maribel you know what i just described what's your reaction to that is it just like what like cloud is supposed to be is that really what multi-cloud is do you agree with the premise that multi-cloud has really been you know what like chuck whitten from dell calls it it's been multi-cloud by default i call it a symptom of multi-vendor what's your take on on what this is oh wow dave another term here we go right more more to define for people but okay the reality is i agree that it's time for something new something evolved right whether we call that super cloud or something else i you know i don't want to really debate the term but we need to move beyond where we are today in multi-cloud and into if we want to call it cloud 5 multi-cloud 2 whatever we want to call it i believe that we're at the next generation that we have to define what that next generation is but if you think about it we went from public to private to hybrid to multi and every time you have a discussion with somebody about cloud you spend 10 minutes defining what you're talking about so this doesn't seem any different to me so let's just go with super cloud for the moment and see where we go and you know if you're interested after everybody else makes their comments i got a few thoughts about what super cloud might mean as well yeah great so i and i agree with you when we like i said in a recent post you could call it cl cloud you know multi-cloud 2.0 but it's something different is happening and sanjeev i know you're not a you're not a big fan of buzz words either but i wonder if you could weigh in on this topic uh you mean by the way sanjeev is at the mit cdo iq conference a great conference uh in boston uh and so he's it's a public place so we're going to have i think you viewed his line when he's not speaking please go ahead yeah so you know i come from a pedigree of uh being an analyst of uh firms that love inventing new terms i am not a big fan of inventing new terms i feel that when we come up with a new term i spend all my time standing on a stage trying to define what it is it takes me away from trying to solve the problem so so i'm you know i find these terms to be uh words of convenience like for example big data you know big data to me may not mean anything but big data connotes some of this modern way of handling vast volumes of data that traditional systems could not handle so from that point of view i'm i'm completely okay with super cloud but just inventing a new term is what i have called in my previous sessions tyranny of jargons where we have just too many jargons and uh and they resonate with i.t people they do not resonate with the business people business people care about the problem they don't care about what we and i t called them yeah and i think this is a really important point that you make and by the way we're not trying to create a new industry category per se yeah we leave that to gartner that's why actually i like super cloud because nobody's going to use that no vendor's going to use the term super cloud it's just too buzzy so so but but but it brings up the point about practitioners and so keith i want to bring you in so the what we've talked about and i'll just sort of share some some thoughts on the problems that we see and and get keith get your practitioner view most clouds most companies use multiple clouds we all kind of agree on that i think and largely these clouds operate in silos and they have their own development environment their own operating environment different apis different primitives and the functionality of a particular cloud doesn't necessarily extend to other clouds so the problem is that increases friction for customers increases cost increases security risk and so there's this promise maribel multi-cloud 2.0 that's going to solve that problem so keith my question to you is is is that an accurate description of the problem that practitioners face today do what did i miss and i wonder if you could elaborate so i think we'll get into some of the detail later on why this is a problem specifically around technologies but if we think about it in the abstract most customers have their hands full dealing with one cloud like we'll you know through m a and such and you zoom in and you look at companies that have multiple clouds or multi-cloud from result of mma mna m a activity you'll see that most of that is in silos so organizationally the customer may have multiple clouds but sub orchid silos they're generally a single silo in a single cloud so as you think about being able to take advantage of of tooling across the multicloud of what dave you guys are calling the super cloud this becomes a serious problem it's just a skill problem it's too much capability uh across too many things that look completely different than another okay so dave can i pick up on that please i'd love i was gonna just go to you maribel please chime in here okay so if we think about what we're talking about with super cloud and what keith just mentioned remember when we went to see tcp ip and the whole idea was like how do we get computers to talk to each other in a more standardized way how do we get data to move in a more standardized way i think that the problem we have with multi-cloud right now is that we don't have that so i think that's sort of a ground level of getting us to your super cloud premise is that and and you know google's tried it with anthony's like everybody every hyperscaler has tried their like right one to run anywhere but that abstraction layer you talk about what whatever we want to call it is super necessary and it's sort of the foundation so if you really think about it we've spent like 15 years or so building out all the various components of cloud and now's the time to take it so that cloud is actually more of an operating model versus a place there's at least a base level of it that is vendor neutral and then to your point the value that's going to be built on top of that you know people been trying to commoditize the basic infrastructure for a while now and i think that's what you're seeing in your super cloud multi-cloud whatever you want to call it the infrastructure is the infrastructure and then what would have been traditionally that past layer and above is where we're going to start to see some real innovation but we still haven't gotten to that point where you can do visibility observability manageability across that really complex cloud stack that we have the reason i the reason i love that tcpip example hm is because it changed the industry and it had an ecosystem effect in sanjiv the the the example that i first example that i used was snowflake a company that you're very familiar with that is sort of hiding all that complexity and right and so we're not there yet but please chime in on this topic uh you gotta you gotta view it again uh after you building upon what maribel said you know to me uh this sounds like a multi-cloud operating system where uh you know you need that kind of a common uh set of primitives and layers because if you go in in the typical multi-cloud process you've got multiple identities and you can't have that you how can you govern if i'm if i have multiple identities i don't have observability i don't know what's going on across my different stacks so to me super cloud is that call it single pane of glass or or one way through which i'm unifying my experience my my technology interfaces my integration and uh and i as an end user don't even care which uh which cloud i'm in it makes no difference to me it makes a difference to the vendor the vendor may say this is coming from aws and this is coming from gcp or azure but to the end user it is a consistent experience with consistent id and and observability and governance so that to me makes it a big difference and so one of floyer's contribution conversation was in order to have a super cloud you got to have a super pass i'm like oh boy people are going to love that but the point being that that allows a consistent developer experience and to maribel's earlier point about tcp it explodes the ecosystem because the ecosystem can now write to that super pass if you will those apis so keith do you do do you buy that number one and number two do you see that industries financial services and healthcare are actually going to be on clouds or what we call super clouds so sanjeev hit on a really key aspect of this is identity let's make this real they you love talk about data collaboration i love senji's point on the business user kind of doesn't care if this is aws versus super cloud versus etc i was collaborating with the client and he wanted to send video file and the video file uh his organization's access control policy didn't allow him to upload or share the file from their preferred platform so he had to go out to another cloud provider and create yet another identity for that data on the cloud same data different identity a proper super cloud will enable me to simply say as a end user here's a set of data or data sets and i want to share a collaboration a collaborator and that requires cross identity across multiple clouds so even before we get to the past layer and the apis we have to solve the most basic problem which is data how do we stop data scientists from shipping snowballs to a location because we can't figure out the identity the we're duplicating the same data within the same cloud because we can't share identity across customer accounts or etc we we have to solve these basic thoughts before we get to supercloud otherwise we get to us a turtles all the way down thing so we'll get into snowflake and what snowflake can do but that's what happens when i want to share my snowflake data across multiple clouds to a different platform yeah you have to go inside the snowflake cloud which leads right so i would say to keith's question sanjeev snowflake i think is solving that problem but then he brings up the other problem which is what if i want to share share data outside the snowflake cloud so that gets to the point of visit open is it closed and so sanji chime in on the sort of snowflake example and in maribel i wonder if there are networking examples because that's that's keith's saying you got to fix the plumbing before you get these higher level abstractions but sanji first yeah so i so i actually want to go and talk a little bit about network but from a data and analytics point of view so i never built upon what what keith said so i i want to give an example let's say i am getting fantastic web logs i and i know who uh uh how much time they're spending on my web pages and which pages they're looking at so i have all of that now all of that is going into cloud a now it turns out that i use google analytics or maybe i use adobe's you know analytics uh suite now that is giving me the business view and i'm trying to do customer journey analytics and guess what i now have two separate identities two separate products two separate clouds if i and i as an id person no problem i can solve any problem by writing tons of code but why would i do that if i can have that super pass or a multi-cloud layout where i've got like a single way of looking at my network traffic my customer metrics and i can do my customer journey analytics it solves a huge problem and then i can share that data with my with my partners so they can see data about their products which is a combination of data from different uh clouds great thank you uh maribel please i think we're having a lord of the rings moment here with the run one room to rule them all concept and i'm not sure that anybody's actually incented to do that right so i think there's two levels of the stack i think in the basic we're talking a lot about we don't have the basic fundamentals of how do you move data authenticate data secure data do data lineage all that stuff across different clouds right we haven't even spoken right now i feel like we're really just talking about the public cloud venue and we haven't even pulled in the fact that people are doing hybrid cloud right so hybrid cloud you know then you're talking about you've got hardware vendors and you've got hyperscaler vendors and there's two or three different ways of doing things so i honestly think that something will emerge like if we think about where we are in technology today it's almost like we need back to that operating system that sanji was talking about like we need a next generation operating system like nobody wants to build the cloud mouse driver of the 21st century over and over again right we need something like that as a foundation layer but then on top of it you know there's obviously a lot of opportunity to build differentiation like when i think back on what happened with cloud amazon remained aws remained very powerful and popular because people invested in building things on amazon right they created a platform and it took a while for anybody else to catch up to that or to have that kind of presence and i still feel that way when i talk to companies but having said that i talked to retail the other day and they were like hey we spent a long time building an abstraction layer on top of the clouds so that our developers could basically write once and run anywhere but they were a massive global presence retailer that's not something that everybody can do so i think that we are still missing a gap i don't know if that exactly answers your question but i i do feel like we're kind of in this chicken and egg thing which comes first and nobody wants to necessarily invest in like oh well you know amazon has built a way to do this so we're all just going to do it the amazon way right it seems like that's not going to work either but i think you bring up a really important point which there is going to be no one ring to rule them all you're going to have you know vmware is going to solve its multi-cloud problem snowflake's going to do a very has a very specific you know purpose-built system for it itself databricks is going to do its thing and it's going to be you know more open source i would companies like aviatrix i would say cisco even is going to go out and solve this problem dell showed at uh at dell tech world a thing called uh project alpine which is basically storage across clouds they're going to be many super clouds we're going to get maybe super cloud stove pipes but but the point is however for a specific problem in a set of use cases they will be addressing those and solving incremental value so keith maybe we won't have that single cloud operating you know system but we'll have multiple ones what are your thoughts on that yeah we're definitely going to have multiple ones uh the there is no um there is no community large enough or influential enough to push a design take maribel's example of the mega retailer they've solved it but they're not going to that's that's competitive that's their competitive advantage they're not going to share that with the rest of us and open source that and force that upon the industry via just agreement from everyone else so we're not going to get uh the level of collaboration either originated by the cloud provider originated from user groups that solves this problem big for us we will get silos in which this problem is solved we'll get groups working together inside of maybe uh industry or subgroups within the industry to say that hey we're going to share or federate identity across our three or four or five or a dozen organizations we'll be able to share data we're going to solve that data problem but in the same individual organizations in another part of the super cloud problem are going to again just be silos i can't uh i can't run machine learning against my web assets for the community group that i run because that's not part of the working group that solved a different data science problem so yes we're going to have these uh bifurcations and forks within the super cloud the question is where is the focus for each individual organization where do i point my smart people and what problems they solve okay i want to throw out a premise and get you guys reaction to it because i think this again i go back to the maribel's tcpip example it changed the industry it opened up an ecosystem and to me this is what digital transformation is all about you've got now industry participants marc andreessen says every company is a software company you've now got industry participants and here's some examples it's not i wouldn't call them true super clouds yet but walmart's doing their hybrid thing with azure you got goldman sachs announced at the last reinvent and it's going to take its tools its software its data and which is on-prem and connect that to the aws cloud and actually deliver a service capital one we saw sanjiv at the snowflake summit is is taking their tooling and doing it now granted just within snowflake and aws but i fully expect them to expand that across other clouds these are industry examples capital one software is the name of the division that are now it's to the re reason why i don't get so worried that we're not solving the lord of the rings problem that maribel mentioned is because it opens up tremendous opportunities for companies we got like just under five minutes left i want to throw that out there and see what you guys think yeah i would just i want to build upon what maribel said i love what she said you're not going to build a mouse driver so if multi-cloud supercloud is a multi-cloud os the mouse driver would be identity or maybe it's data quality and to teach point that data quality is not going to come from a single vendor that is going to come from a different vendor whose job is to to harmonize data because there might be data might be for the same identity but it may be a different granularity level so you cannot just mix and match so you need to have some sort of like resolution and that is is an example of a driver for multi-cloud interesting okay so you know octa might be the identity cloud or z scaler might be the security cloud or calibre has its cloud etc any thoughts on that keith or maribel yeah so let's talk about where the practical challenges run into this we did some really great research that was sponsored by one of the large cloud providers in which we took all we looked at all the vmware cloud solutions when i say vmware cloud vmware has a lot of products across multi-cloud now in the rock broadcloud portfolio but we're talking about the og solution vmware vsphere it would seem like on paper if i put vmware vsphere in each cloud that is therefore a super cloud i think we would all agree to that in principle what we found in our research was that when we put hands on keyboard the differences of the clouds show themselves in the training gap and that skills gap between the clouds show themselves if i needed to expose less our favorite friend a friend a tc pip address to the public internet that is a different process on each one of the clouds that needs to be done on each one of the clouds and not abstracted in vmware vsphere so as we look at the nuance yes we can give the big controls but where the capital ones the uh jp morgan chase just spent two billion dollars on this type of capability where the spin effort is done is taking it from that 80 percent to that 90 95 experience and that's where the effort and money is spent on that last mile maribel we're out of time but please you know bring us home give us your closing thoughts hey i think we're still going to be working on what the multi-cloud thing is for a while and you know super cloud i think is a direction of the future of cloud computing but we got some real problems to solve around authentication uh identity data lineage data security so i think those are going to be sort of the tactical things that we're working on for the next couple years right guys always a pleasure having you on the cube i hope we see you around keith i understand you're you're bringing your airstream to vmworld or vmware explorer putting it on the on the floor i can't wait to see that and uh mrs cto advisor i'm sure we'll be uh by your side so looking forward to that hopefully sanjeev and maribel we'll see you uh on the circuit as well yes hope to see you there right looking forward to hopefully even doing some content with you guys at vmware explorer too awesome looking forward all right keep it right there for more content from super cloud 22 right back [Music] you

>> Narrator: TheCUBE presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon, Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend and we are in a beautiful locale. The city itself is not that big, 100,000, I mean, sorry, about 800,000 people. And we got out, got to see a little bit of the sites. It is an amazing city. I'm from the US, it's hard to put in context how a city of 800,000 people can be so beautiful. I'm here with Anish Dhar and Ganesh Datta, Co-founder and CTO of Cortex. Anish you're CEO of Cortex. We were having a conversation. One of the things that I asked my client is what is good. And you're claiming to answer the question about what is quality when it comes to measuring microservices? What is quality? >> Yeah, I think it really depends on the company and I think that's really the philosophy we have. When we built Cortex, is that we understood that different companies have different definitions of quality, but they need to be able to be represented in really objective ways. I think what ends up happening in most engineering organizations is that quality lives in people's heads. The engineers who write the services they're often the ones who understand all the intricacies with the service. What are the downstream dependencies, who's on call for this service? Where does the documentation live? All of these things I think impact the quality of the service. And as these engineers leave the company or they switch teams, they often take that tribal knowledge with them. And so I think quality really comes down to being able to objectively codify your best practices in some way and have that distributed to all engineers in the company. >> And to add to that, I think very concrete examples for an organization that's already modern like their idea of quality might be uptime incidents. For somebody that's like going through a modernization strategy, they're trying to get to the 21st century, they're trying to get to Kubernetes. For them, quality means where are we in that journey? Are you on our latest platforms? Are you running CI, are you doing continuous delivery? Like quality can mean a lot of things and so our perspective is how do we give you the tools to say as an organization, here's what quality means to us. >> So at first, my mind was going through when you said quality, Anish, you started out the conversation about having this kind of non-codified set of measurements, historical knowledge, et cetera. I was thinking observability, measuring how much time does it take to have a transaction. But Ganesh you're introducing this new thing. I'm working with this project where we're migrating a monolith application to a set of microservices. And you're telling me Cortex helps me measure the quality of what I'm doing in my project? >> Ganesh: Absolutely. >> How is that? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So I think when you think about observability, you think about uptime and latency and transactions and throughput and all this stuff. And I think that's very high level and I think that's one perspective of what quality is, but as you're going through this journey, you might say like the fact that we're tracking that stuff, the fact that you're using APM, you're using distributed tracing, that is one element of service quality. Maybe service quality means you're doing CICD, you're running vulnerability scans. You're using Docker. Like what that means to us can be very different. So observability is just one aspect of are you doing things the right way? Good to us means you're using SLOs. You are tracking those metrics. You're reporting that somewhere. And so that's like one component for our organization of what quality can mean. >> I'm kind of taken back by this because I've not seen someone kind of give the idea. And I think later on, this is the perfect segment to introduce theCUBE clock in which I'm going to give you a minute to kind of like give me the elevator pitch, but we're going to have the deep conversation right now. When you go in and you... What's the first process you do when you engage in a customer? Does a customer go and get this off of repository, install it, the open source version, and then what? I mean, what's the experience? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we have both a smart and on-prem version of Cortex. It's really straightforward. Basically we have a service discovery onboarding flow where customers can connect to different sets of source for their services. It could be Kubernetes, ECS, Git Repos, APM tools, and then we'll actually automatically map all of that service data with all of the integration data in the company. So we'll take that service and map it to its on call rotation to the JIRA tickets that have the service tag associated with it, to the data algo SLOs. And what that ends ends up producing is this service catalog that has all the information you need to understand your service. Almost like a single pane of glass to work with the service. And then once you have all of that data inside Cortex, then you can start writing scorecards, which grade the quality of those services across those different verticals Ganesh was talking about. Like whether it's a monolith, a microservice transition, whether it's production readiness or security standards, you can really start tracking that. And then engineers start understanding where the areas of risk with my service across reliability or security or operation maturity. I think it gives us in insane visibility into what's actually being built and the quality of that compared to your standards. >> So, okay, I have a standards for SLO that is usually something that is, it might not even be measured. So how do you help me understand that I'm lacking a measurable system for tracking SLO and what's the next step for helping me get that system? >> Yeah, I think our perspective is very much how do we help you create a culture where developers understand what's expected of them? So if SLOs are part of what we consider observability or reliability, then Cortex's perspective is, hey, we want to help your organization adopt SLOs. And so that service cataloging concept, the service catalog says, hey, here's my API integration. Then a scorecard, the organization goes in and says, we want every service owner to define their SLOs, we want you to define your thresholds. We want you to be tracking them, are you passing your SLOs? And so we're not being prescriptive about here's what we think your SLOs should be, ours is more around, hey, we're going to help you like if you care about SLOs, we're going to tell the service owners saying, hey, you need to have at least two SLOs for your service and you got to be tracking them. And the service catalog that data flows from a service catalog into those scorecards. And so we're helping them adopt that mindset of, hey, SLOs are important. It is a component of like a holistic service reliability excellence metric that we care about. >> So what happens when I already have systems for like SLO, how do I integrate that system with Cortex? >> That's one of the coolest things. So the service catalog can be pretty smart about it. So let's say you've sucked in your services from your GitHub. And so now your services are in Cortex. What we can do is we can actually discover from your APM tools, you can say like, hey, for this service, we have guessed that this is the corresponding APM in Datadog. And so from Datadog, here are your SLOs, here are your monitors. And so we can start mapping all the different parts of your world into the Cortex. And that's the power of the service catalog. The service catalog says, given a service, here's everything about that service. Here's the vulnerability scans. Here's the APM, the monitors, the SLOs, the JIRA ticket is like all that stuff comes into a single place. And then our scorecards product can go back out and say, hey, Datadog, tell me about this SLOs for the service. And so we're going to get that information live and then score your services against that. And so we're like integrating with all of your third party tools and integrations to create that single pan of glass. >> Yeah, and to add to that, I think one of the most interesting use cases with scorecards is, okay, which teams have actually adopted SLOs in the first place? I think a lot of companies struggle with how do we make sure engineers defined SLOs are passing them actually care about them. And scorecards can be used to one, which teams are actually meeting these guidelines? And then two, let's get those teams adopted on SLOs. Let's track that, you can do all of that in Cortex, which is I think a really interesting use case that we've seen. >> So let's talk about kind of my use case in the end to end process for integrating Cortex into migrations. So I have this monolithic application, I want to break it into microservices and then I want to ensure that I'm delivering if not, you know what, let's leave it a little bit more open ended. How do I know that I'm better at the end of I was in a monolith before, how do I measure that now that I'm in microservices and on cloud native, that I'm better? >> That's a good question. I think it comes down to, and we talk about this all the time for our customers that are going through that process. You can't define better if you don't define a baseline, like what does good mean to us? And so you need to start by saying, why are we moving to microservices? Is it because we want teams to move faster? Is it because we care about reliability up time? Like what is the core metric that we're tracking? And so you start by defining that as an organization. And that is kind of like a hand wavy thing. Why are we doing microservices? Once you have that, then you define this scorecard. And that's like our golden path. Once we're done doing this microservice migration, can we say like, yes, we have been successful and those metrics that we care about are being tracked. And so where Cortex fits in is from the very first step of creating a service, you can use Cortex to define templates. Like one click, you go in, it spins up a microservice for you that follows all your best practices. And so from there, ideally you're meeting 80% of your standards already. And then you can use scorecards to track historical progress. So you can say, are we meeting our golden path standards? Like if it's uptime, you can track uptime metrics and scorecards. If it's around velocity, you can track velocity metrics. Is it just around modernization? Are you doing CICD and vulnerability scans, like moving faster as a team? You can track that. And so you can start seeing like trends at a per team level, at a per department level, at a per product level saying, hey, we are seeing consistent progress in the metrics that we care about. And this microservice journey is helping us with that. So I think that's the kind of phased progress that we see with Cortex. >> So I'm going to give you kind of a hand wavy thing. We're told that cloud native helps me to do things faster with less defects so that I can do new opportunities. Let's stretch into kind of this non-tech, this new opportunities perspective. I want to be able to move my microservices. I want to be able to move my architecture to microservices, so I reduce call wait time on my customer service calls. So I can easily see how I can measure are we iterating faster? Are we putting out more updates quicker? That's pretty easy to measure. The number of defects, easy to measure. I can imagine a scorecard, but what about this wait time? I don't necessarily manage the call center system, but I get the data. How do I measure that the microservice migration was successful from a business process perspective? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I think it comes down to two things. One, the flexibility of scorecard means you can pipe in that data to Cortex. And what we recommend customers is track the outcome metrics and track the input metrics as well. And so what is the input metric to call wait time? Like maybe it's the fact that if something goes wrong, we have the run books to quickly roll back to an older version that we know is running. That way MTTR is faster. Or when something happens, we know the owner for that service and we can go back to them and say like, hey, we're going to ping you as an incident commander. Those are kind of the input metrics to, if we do these things, then we know our call wait time is going to drop because we're able to respond faster to incidents. And so you want to track those input metrics. And then you want to track the output metrics as well. And so if you have those metrics coming in from your Prometheus or your Datadogs or whatever, you can pipe that into Cortex and say, hey, we're going to look at both of these things holistically. So we want to see is there a correlation between those input metrics like are we doing things the right way, versus are we seeing the value that we want to come out of that? And so I think that's the value of Cortex is not so much around, hey, we're going to be prescriptive about it. It's here's this framework that will let you track all of that and say, are we doing things the right way and is it giving us the value that we want? And being able to report that update to engineer leadership and say, hey, maybe these services are not doing like we're not improving call wait time. Okay, why is that? Are these services behind on the actual input metrics that we care about? And so being able to see that I think is super valuable. >> Yeah, absolutely, I think just to touch on the reporting, I think that's one of the most value add things Cortex can provide. If you think about it, the service is atomic unit of your software. It represents everything that's being built and that bubbles up into teams, products, business units, and Cortex lets you represent that. So now I can, as a CTO, come in and say, hey, these product lines are they actually meeting our standards? Where are the areas of risk? Where should I be investing more resources? I think Cortex is almost like the best way to get the actual health of your engineering organization. >> All right Anish and Ganesh. We're going to go into the speed round here. >> Ganesh: It's time for the Q clock? >> Time for the Q clock. Start the Q clock. (upbeat music) Let's go on. >> Ganesh: Let's do it. >> Anish: Let's do it. >> Let's go on. You're you're 10 seconds in. >> Oh, we can start talking. Okay, well I would say, Anish was just touching on this. For a CTO, their question is how do I know if engineering quality is good? And they don't care about the microservice level. They care about as a business, is my engineering team actually producing. >> Keith: Follow the green, not the dream. (Ganesh laughs) >> And so the question is, well, how do we codify service quality? We don't want this to be a hand wavy thing that says like, oh, my team is good, my team is bad. We want to come in and define here's what service quality means. And we want that to be a number. You want that to be something that can- >> A goal without a timeline is just a dream. >> And CTO comes in and they say, here's what we care about. Here's how we're tracking it. Here are the teams that are doing well. We're going to reward the winners. We're going to move towards a world where every single team is doing service quality. And that's where Cortex can provide. We can give you that visibility that you never have before. >> For that five seconds. >> And hey, your SRE can't be the one handling all this. So let Cortex- >> Shoot the bad guy. >> Shot that, we're done. From Valencia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend. And you're watching theCube. The leader in high tech coverage. (soft music) (soft music) >> Narrator: TheCube presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon, Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. And we are in a beautiful locale. The city itself is not that big 100,000, I mean, sorry, about 800,000 people. And we got out, got to see a little bit of the sites. It is an amazing city. I'm from the US, it's hard to put in context how a city of 800,000 people can be so beautiful. I'm here with Anish Dhar and Ganesh Datta, Co-founder and CTO of Cortex. Anish you're CEO of Cortex. We were having a conversation. One of the things that I asked my client is what is good. And you're claiming to answer the question about what is quality when it comes to measuring microservices? What is quality? >> Yeah, I think it really depends on the company. And I think that's really the philosophy we have when we build Cortex is that we understood that different companies have different definitions of quality, but they need to be able to be represented in really objective ways. I think what ends up happening in most engineering organizations is that quality lives in people's heads. Engineers who write the services, they're often the ones who understand all the intricacies with the service. What are the downstream I dependencies, who's on call for this service, where does the documentation live? All of these things, I think impact the quality of the service. And as these engineers leave the company or they switch teams, they often take that tribal knowledge with them. And so I think quality really comes down to being able to objectively like codify your best practices in some way, and have that distributed to all engineers in the company. >> And to add to that, I think like very concrete examples for an organization that's already modern their idea of quality might be uptime incidents. For somebody that's like going through a modernization strategy, they're trying to get to the 21st century. They're trying to get to Kubernetes. For them quality means like, where are we in that journey? Are you on our latest platforms? Are you running CI? Are you doing continuous delivery? Like quality can mean a lot of things. And so our perspective is how do we give you the tools to say as an organization here's what quality means to us. >> So at first my mind was going through when you said quality and as you started out the conversation about having this kind of non codified set of measurements, historical knowledge, et cetera. I was thinking observability measuring how much time does it take to have a transaction? But Ganesh you're introducing this new thing. I'm working with this project where we're migrating a monolith application to a set of microservices. And you're telling me Cortex helps me measure the quality of what I'm doing in my project? >> Ganesh: Absolutely. >> How is that? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So I think when you think about observability, you think about uptime and latency and transactions and throughput and all this stuff and I think that's very high level. And I think that's one perspective of what quality is. But as you're going through this journey, you might say like the fact that we're tracking that stuff, the fact that you're using APM, you're using distributed tracing, that is one element of service quality. Maybe service quality means you're doing CICD, you're running vulnerability scans. You're using Docker. Like what that means to us can be very different. So observability is just one aspect of, are you doing things the right way? Good to us means you're using SLOs. You are tracking those metrics. You're reporting that somewhere. And so that's like one component for our organization of what quality can mean. >> Wow, I'm kind of taken me back by this because I've not seen someone kind of give the idea. And I think later on, this is the perfect segment to introduce theCube clock in which I'm going to give you a minute to kind of like give me the elevator pitch, but we're going to have the deep conversation right now. When you go in and you... what's the first process you do when you engage in a customer? Does a customer go and get this off of repository, install it, the open source version and then what, I mean, what's the experience? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we have both a smart and on-prem version of Cortex. It's really straightforward. Basically we have a service discovery onboarding flow where customers can connect to different set of source for their services. It could be Kubernetes, ECS, Git Repos, APM tools, and then we'll actually automatically map all of that service data with all of the integration data in the company. So we'll take that service and map it to its on call rotation to the JIRA tickets that have the service tag associated with it, to the data algo SLOs. And what that ends up producing is this service catalog that has all the information you need to understand your service. Almost like a single pane of glass to work with the service. And then once you have all of that data inside Cortex, then you can start writing scorecards, which grade the quality of those services across those different verticals Ganesh was talking about. like whether it's a monolith, a microservice transition, whether it's production readiness or security standards, you can really start tracking that. And then engineers start understanding where are the areas of risk with my service across reliability or security or operation maturity. I think it gives us insane visibility into what's actually being built and the quality of that compared to your standards. >> So, okay, I have a standard for SLO. That is usually something that is, it might not even be measured. So how do you help me understand that I'm lacking a measurable system for tracking SLO and what's the next step for helping me get that system? >> Yeah, I think our perspective is very much how do we help you create a culture where developers understand what's expected of them? So if SLOs are part of what we consider observability and reliability, then Cortex's perspective is, hey, we want to help your organization adopt SLOs. And so that service cataloging concept, the service catalog says, hey, here's my APM integration. Then a scorecard, the organization goes in and says, we want every service owner to define their SLOs. We want to define your thresholds. We want you to be tracking them. Are you passing your SLOs? And so we're not being prescriptive about here's what we think your SLOs should be. Ours is more around, hey, we're going to help you like if you care about SLOs, we're going to tell the service owners saying, hey, you need to have at least two SLOs for your service and you've got to be tracking them. And the service catalog that data flows from the service catalog into those scorecards. And so we're helping them adopt that mindset of, hey, SLOs are important. It is a component of like a holistic service reliability excellence metric that we care about. >> So what happens when I already have systems for like SLO, how do I integrate that system with Cortex? >> That's one of the coolest things. So the service catalog can be pretty smart about it. So let's say you've sucked in your services from your GitHub. And so now your services are in Cortex. What we can do is we can actually discover from your APM tools, we can say like, hey, for this service we have guessed that this is the corresponding APM in Datadog. And so from Datadog, here are your SLOs, here are your monitors. And so we can start mapping all the different parts of your world into the Cortex. And that's the power of the service catalog. The service catalog says, given a service, here's everything about that service. Here's the vulnerability scans, here's the APM, the monitor, the SLOs, the JIRA ticket, like all that stuff comes into a single place. And then our scorecard product can go back out and say, hey, Datadog, tell me about this SLOs for the service. And so we're going to get that information live and then score your services against that. And so we're like integrating with all of your third party tools and integrations to create that single pan of glass. >> Yeah and to add to that, I think one of the most interesting use cases with scorecards is, okay, which teams have actually adopted SLOs in the first place? I think a lot of companies struggle with how do we make sure engineers defined SLOs are passing them actually care about them? And scorecards can be used to one, which teams are actually meeting these guidelines? And then two let's get those teams adopted on SLOs. Let's track that. You can do all of that in Cortex, which is, I think a really interesting use case that we've seen. >> So let's talk about kind of my use case in the end to end process for integrating Cortex into migrations. So I have this monolithic application, I want to break it into microservices and then I want to ensure that I'm delivering you know what, let's leave it a little bit more open ended. How do I know that I'm better at the end of I was in a monolith before, how do I measure that now that I'm in microservices and on cloud native, that I'm better? >> That's a good question. I think it comes down to, and we talk about this all the time for our customers that are going through that process. You can't define better if you don't define a baseline, like what does good mean to us? And so you need to start by saying, why are we moving to microservices? Is it because we want teams to move faster? Is it because we care about reliability up time? Like what is the core metric that we're tracking? And so you start by defining that as an organization. And that is kind of like a hand wavy thing. Why are we doing microservices? Once you have that, then you define the scorecard and that's like our golden path. Once we're done doing this microservice migration, can we say like, yes, we have been successful. And like those metrics that we care about are being tracked. And so where Cortex fits in is from the very first step of creating a service. You can use Cortex to define templates. Like one click, you go in, it spins up a microservice for you that follows all your best practices. And so from there, ideally you're meeting 80% of your standards already. And then you can use scorecards to track historical progress. So you can say, are we meeting our golden path standards? Like if it's uptime, you can track uptime metrics and scorecards. If it's around velocity, you can track velocity metrics. Is it just around modernization? Are you doing CICD and vulnerability scans, like moving faster as a team? You can track that. And so you can start seeing like trends at a per team level, at a per department level, at a per product level. Saying, hey, we are seeing consistent progress in the metrics that we care about. And this microservice journey is helping us with that. So I think that's the kind of phased progress that we see with Cortex. >> So I'm going to give you kind of a hand wavy thing. We're told that cloud native helps me to do things faster with less defects so that I can do new opportunities. Let's stretch into kind of this non-tech, this new opportunities perspective. I want to be able to move my microservices. I want to be able to move my architecture to microservices so I reduce call wait time on my customer service calls. So, I could easily see how I can measure are we iterating faster? Are we putting out more updates quicker? That's pretty easy to measure. The number of defects, easy to measure. I can imagine a scorecard. But what about this wait time? I don't necessarily manage the call center system, but I get the data. How do I measure that the microservice migration was successful from a business process perspective? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I think it comes down to two things. One, the flexibility of scorecard means you can pipe in that data to Cortex. And what we recommend customers is track the outcome metrics and track the input metrics as well. And so what is the input metric to call wait time? Like maybe it's the fact that if something goes wrong, we have the run book to quickly roll back to an older version that we know is running that way MTTR is faster. Or when something happens, we know the owner for that service and we can go back to them and say like, hey, we're going to ping you as an incident commander. Those are kind the input metrics to, if we do these things, then we know our call wait time is going to drop because we're able to respond faster to incidents. And so you want to track those input metrics and then you want to track the output metrics as well. And so if you have those metrics coming in from your Prometheus or your Datadogs or whatever, you can pipe that into Cortex and say, hey, we're going to look at both of these things holistically. So we want to see is there a correlation between those input metrics? Are we doing things the right way versus are we seeing the value that we want to come out of that? And so I think that's the value of Cortex is not so much around, hey, we're going to be prescriptive about it. It's here's this framework that will let you track all of that and say, are we doing things the right way and is it giving us the value that we want? And being able to report that update to engineer leadership and say, hey, maybe these services are not doing like we're not improving call wait time. Okay, why is that? Are these services behind on like the actual input metrics that we care about? And so being able to see that I think is super valuable. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think just to touch on the reporting, I think that's one of the most value add things Cortex can provide. If you think about it, the service is atomic unit of your software. It represents everything that's being built and that bubbles up into teams, products, business units, and Cortex lets you represent that. So now I can, as a CTO, come in and say, hey, these product lines are they actually meeting our standards? Where are the areas of risk? Where should I be investing more resources? I think Cortex is almost like the best way to get the actual health of your engineering organization. >> All right, Anish and Ganesh. We're going to go into the speed round here. >> Ganesh: It's time for the Q clock >> Time for the Q clock. Start the Q clock. (upbeat music) >> Let's go on. >> Ganesh: Let's do it. >> Anish: Let's do it. >> Let's go on, you're 10 seconds in. >> Oh, we can start talking. Okay, well I would say, Anish was just touching on this, for a CTO, their question is how do I know if engineering quality is good? And they don't care about the microservice level. They care about as a business, is my enduring team actually producing- >> Keith: Follow the green, not the dream. (Ganesh laughs) >> And so the question is, well, how do we codify service quality? We don't want this to be a hand wavy thing that says like, oh, my team is good, my team is bad. We want to come in and define here's what service quality means. And we want that to be a number. You want that to be something that you can- >> A goal without a timeline is just a dream. >> And a CTO comes in and they say, here's what we care about, here's how we're tracking it. Here are the teams that are doing well. We're going to reward the winners. We're going to move towards a world where every single team is doing service quality. And that's what Cortex can provide. We can give you that visibility that you never had before. >> For that five seconds. >> And hey, your SRE can't be the one handling all this. So let Cortex- >> Shoot the bad guy. >> Shot that, we're done. From Valencia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend. And you're watching theCube, the leader in high tech coverage. (soft music)

(bright music) >> You know, there's a lot of negative press around the technology industry these days. The tech lash is somewhat understandable, people are struggling and yet the tech industry is booming, creating incredible wealth for a relatively select group of people. I get it. But the reality is, that the technology industry has guided us through the pandemic, allowing us to work remotely, securing our employees, keeping goods and services flowing, and using data and analytics to track COVID and accelerate the development of vaccines. And many in the tech industry are passionate about giving back and applying their talents to solve real world problems. I'll give you an example. After accidents, cancer is the number one cause of death among young people. In the middle of the 20th century, the survival rate for kids with cancer was 0.0%. Today, it's above 85%. Cancer in kids is much different than in adults. The types of cancer, the diagnoses, the treatments, they vary. Different types of research are required to attack the problem. And that takes money. And one of the people here in Boston and beyond that's using his talents, his creativity, his network, and yeah, his wealth, to attack this problem, is my friend, Chris Lynch, entrepreneur, investor, and philanthropist. Chris, awesome to see ya. Welcome back to theCUBE my friend. >> Thanks, Dave. It's great to be here. >> So, listen, this personal story of yours, how'd you get into, where's the passion come from for kids with cancer? >> Dave, it's actually related to one of my startup endeavors. When you're starting, bootstrapping your company, you're typically staying at people's homes to save money. >> Sleeping on couches. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. And for the years of these startups, I've developed relationships with families all over the world, 'cause I've literally lived with them for periods of time until the companies got to points where we didn't have to do that. And there was a family in Seattle that I used to stay with, and they had a son that was a similar age to one of mine and he ultimately passed of cancer. And I stayed with the family, and I stayed with them a few times while they were going through this, and I was touched, I was inspired by their courage, how positive they were. I was thinking in my own circumstance, how could I, I would just hate the world. And in these families, I stay there, they call me Uncle Chris. And I was having dinner at the family home and I was looking at the boy, and I excused myself, went to the bathroom and I started sobbing, and he knocks on the door, comes in and says, "Uncle Chris, it's okay. My dad tells me you can do anything. Just do whatever you can so that other kids don't have what I have." You know and... >> Wow. Wow. And I can see the emotion that you're feeling right now, bringing us back to that moment. >> Well. Yeah. >> It's unbelievable. All right, so you got Tech Tackles Cancer. Is this your latest venture? I think the last one was 2018. It's coming back, took a break 'cause of COVID, and this is going to go down on the 21st at The Sinclair in Harvard Square. Bring a bunch of people in. We got a number of people who have signed up to, actually you're one of them, of course, but to sing karaoke, raise a bunch of dough, and then there's like a little contest, right? So... (he chuckles) Alex, bring up that slide. I got to show the audience who we got here. And this is, Chris, this is your competition. So, here you go. We got, Steve Duplessie, right? That's a great picture, Steve. Thanks for doing this, right. Nathan Hall, who's at Pure Storage. Steiny, Ken Steinhardt, from INFINIDAT. And you got George Hope at HPE. And Joe Lemay, who's an inventor, he's the CEO of Rocketbook. Any of these guys worry you? >> I'm going to sleep easy tonight. (Dave laughs) >> So, how did you get into rock and roll? You wrote a blog one time. You quoted Nietzsche saying that life without music would be a mistake. Rock and roll. Rock on. How'd you get into rock and what's your passion there? >> Well, I always loved rock and roll but I had someone that was staying with us who was a student at BU, and he went to his semester abroad, he went to the UK. And he came back with all this punk rock music, the Sex Pistols and all this stuff. And I heard it and it just triggered something in me. And then I didn't want to do anything but play music and try to be a musician, and my grades and everything else suffered as a result. But music's always inspired me, the creativity, the boldness. A lot of things that I think I apply to my startup life. >> How could people help? Let's say they want to get involved. I mean, obviously, they can attend the event, they donate. What should people do? They could sing? >> Yeah. So they can certainly sponsor the event. There are a number of sponsorship opportunities. They can participate. They can volunteer for the event. It is an all-volunteer organization. Every dollar that we raise goes to the charities that we've listed. And we handle everything else through a lot of arm twisting and whatnot. >> Great. So it's June 24th, sorry, June 21st, at The Sinclair, which is right in Harvard Square. So it's live band karaoke, right? >> Correct. >> I've seen some of the, we're going to share a little clip there. And so, it's a call to action to all you rock and roll technology gods out there. You know, we showed you the five folks plus Chris who were doing it, and so we're dying to see you up there again, you must be really excited about it. >> I am, I am. I'm going to be much better than last time. >> Okay. Well, so just on that note we'll close with a little taste of what's in store for June 21st. We'll see you there. ♪ Now my loneliness ♪ ♪ Is killing me now ♪ ♪ You know I still believe ♪ ♪ Midnight, midnight to six ♪ ♪ Midnight, midnight to six ♪ ♪ Midnight, midnight to six ♪ ♪ Believe in things that you don't understand ♪ ♪ then you're su... ♪ (bright music)

[Music] you know there's a lot of negative press around the technology industry these days the tech lash that's somewhat understandable people are struggling and yet the tech industry is booming creating incredible wealth for a relatively select group of people i get it but the reality is that the technology industry has guided us through the pandemic allowing us to work remotely securing our employees keeping goods and services flowing and using data and analytics to track covet and accelerate the development of vaccines and many in the tech industry are passionate about giving back and applying their talents to solve real world problems i'll give an example after accidents cancer is the number one cause of death among young people in the middle of the 20th century the survival rate for kids with cancer was 0.0 percent today it's above 85 percent cancer in kids is a much different than in adults the types of cancer the diagnoses the treatments they vary different types of research are required to attack the problem and that takes money and one of the people here in boston and beyond that's using his talents his creativity his network and yeah his wealth to attack this problem is my friend chris lynch entrepreneur investor and philanthropist chris awesome to see you welcome back to thecube my friend thanks dave it's great to be here so listen this personal story of yours how did you get into where's the passion come from for kids with cancer dave it's actually related to one of my startup endeavors when you're starting bootstrapping company you're typically staying at people's homes and you know to save money sleeping on couches yeah yeah pretty much and um you know through the years of these startups i've developed relationships with families all over the world you know because i've literally lived with them you know for periods of time until the companies get to points where we didn't have to do that and um there was a family in seattle that i used to stay with and they had a son that was a similar age to one of mine and he ultimately passed of cancer and i stayed with the family and i stayed with them a few times while they were going through this and i was touched i was inspired by their courage how positive they were i was thinking in my own circumstance how could i i would just hate the world and you know in the you know in these families i stay there you know they call me uncle chris and um i was having dinner at the you know at the family home and i was looking at the boy and uh i excused myself went to the to the bathroom and i started sobbing and um he knocks on the door comes comes in and says uncle chris it's okay my dad tells me you can do anything just do whatever you can so that other kids don't have what i have you know in it wow wow and i can see the emotion that you're feeling right now bringing bringing us back to that moment it's it's unbelievable and and the thing is when you started st baldrick's it wasn't it was obviously about the kids but it was also about the family as well right because they're going through right i mean you know we all know as parents how hard it is to be a parent can you imagine having a parent that's you know got a disease like that so it's not just about you know the the cancer and the research it's about the supporting the families as well right that's right and that's why one mission is you know one one of our um you know big beneficiaries you know of of the work we do um because it's obviously we want to find cures um but people you know families are affected every day and we need to provide them the kind of support um you know that that they any child should have and any family should have in this circumstance all right so you got tech tackles cancer this is your latest venture i think the last one was uh 2018. it's coming back took a break because of covid obviously uh but so it's live band karaoke it's the tech industry your network and beyond really kind of giving back how does that all work well basically you know we we once i learned that pediatric cancer was different and that there was it was underfunded we wanted to raise awareness for that we wanted to raise funds to take a different approach applying sort of venture principles how i invest in companies and find the best research in the world which is not in any four walls of any sort of research center so we get the best research from around the world and that we decided to put the money invest the money as well as the support services around those that you know are affected today yeah okay so we've got actually so what's going to happen and this is going to go down on the the 21st at the sinclair and harvard square bring a bunch of people in we've got a number of people who have signed up to actually you're one of them of course but to to sing karaoke raise a bunch of dough and then there's a little contest right no alex bring up that slide i gotta i gotta show the audience who we got here this is chris this is your competition uh so here you go you got we got steve duplessi right he has great picture steve thanks for doing this right nathan hall who's at pure storage steiny ken steinhardt from infinidat and you got george hope at hpe and joe lemay who's uh he's inventor he's a ceo a rocket book any of these guys where are you i'm going to sleep easy tonight [Laughter] how did you get into rock and roll you wrote a blog one time you you quoted nietzsche is saying that life without music would be a mistake you know rock and roll rock on how did you get into rock and roll well i always loved rock and roll but i had that was staying with us he was a student at bu and he he went to his semester abroad he went to the uk and he came back with all this punk rock music the sex pistols and all the stuff and um i heard it and it just triggered something in me and that i didn't want to do anything but play music and you know try to be a musician and um you know my grades and everything else suffered as a result but music's always inspired me the creativity the boldness a lot of things that i think i apply to my startup life how can people help let's say they want to get involved i mean obviously they can attend the event they donate what what should people do they could sing yeah so they could they could certainly sponsor the event there are a number of sponsorship opportunities um they can participate they can volunteer for the event it is an all volunteer organization every dollar that we raise goes to the charities that we've listed um and we handle everything else through a lot of arm twisting and you know and whatnot great so it's june 24th uh sorry june 21st at the sinclair which is right in harvard square so it's live band karaoke right i've seen some of the we're gonna share a little a little a little clip there and so it's a call to action to all you you rock and roll technology gods out there you know we showed you the the five folks plus chris who were doing it um and so we're dying to to see you up there again you must be really excited about it i am i am i'm going to be much better than last time okay well so just on that note we'll close with a little taste of what's in store for june 21st we'll see you there [Music] midnight midnight midnight midnight six midnight midnight six things that you don't understand in yourself [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> Once a staid and boring business dominated by IBM, Oracle, and at the time newcomer Microsoft, along with a handful of wannabes, the database business has exploded in the past decade and has become a staple of financial excellence, customer experience, analytic advantage, competitive strategy, growth initiatives, visualizations, not to mention compliance, security, privacy and dozens of other important use cases and initiatives. And on the vendor's side of the house, we've seen the rapid ascendancy of cloud databases. Most notably from Snowflake, whose massive raises leading up to its IPO in late 2020 sparked a spate of interest and VC investment in the separation of compute and storage and all that elastic resource stuff in the cloud. The company joined AWS, Azure and Google to popularize cloud databases, which have become a linchpin of competitive strategies for technology suppliers. And if I get you to put your data in my database and in my cloud, and I keep innovating, I'm going to build a moat and achieve a hugely attractive lifetime customer value in a really amazing marginal economics dynamic that is going to fund my future. And I'll be able to sell other adjacent services, not just compute and storage, but machine learning and inference and training and all kinds of stuff, dozens of lucrative cloud offerings. Meanwhile, the database leader, Oracle has invested massive amounts of money to maintain its lead. It's building on its position as the king of mission critical workloads and making typical Oracle like claims against the competition. Most were recently just yesterday with another announcement around MySQL HeatWave. An extension of MySQL that is compatible with on-premises MySQLs and is setting new standards in price performance. We're seeing a dramatic divergence in strategies across the database spectrum. On the far left, we see Amazon with more than a dozen database offerings each with its own API and primitives. AWS is taking a right tool for the right job approach, often building on open source platforms and creating services that it offers to customers to solve very specific problems for developers. And on the other side of the line, we see Oracle, which is taking the Swiss Army Knife approach, converging database functionality, enabling analytic and transactional workloads to run in the same data store, eliminating the need to ETL, at the same time adding capabilities into its platform like automation and machine learning. Welcome to this database Power Panel. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm so excited to bring together some of the most respected industry analyst in the community. Today we're going to assess what's happening in the market. We're going to dig into the competitive landscape and explore the future of database and database platforms and decode what it means to customers. Let me take a moment to welcome our guest analyst today. Matt Kimball is a vice president and principal analysts at Moor Insights and Strategy, Matt. He knows products, he knows industry, he's got real world IT expertise, and he's got all the angles 25 plus years of experience in all kinds of great background. Matt, welcome. Thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. Holgar Mueller, friend of theCUBE, vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research in depth knowledge on applications, application development, knows developers. He's worked at SAP and Oracle. And then Bob Evans is Chief Content Officer and co-founder of the Acceleration Economy, founder and principle of Cloud Wars. Covers all kinds of industry topics and great insights. He's got awesome videos, these three minute hits. If you haven't seen 'em, checking them out, knows cloud companies, his Cloud Wars minutes are fantastic. And then of course, Marc Staimer is the founder of Dragon Slayer Research. A frequent contributor and guest analyst at Wikibon. He's got a wide ranging knowledge across IT products, knows technology really well, can go deep. And then of course, Ron Westfall, Senior Analyst and Director Research Director at Futurum Research, great all around product trends knowledge. Can take, you know, technical dives and really understands competitive angles, knows Redshift, Snowflake, and many others. Gents, thanks so much for taking the time to join us in theCube today. It's great to have you on, good to see you. >> Good to be here, thanks for having us. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, let's start with an around the horn and briefly, if each of you would describe, you know, anything I missed in your areas of expertise and then you answer the following question, how would you describe the state of the database, state of platform market today? Matt Kimball, please start. >> Oh, I hate going first, but that it's okay. How would I describe the world today? I would just in one sentence, I would say, I'm glad I'm not in IT anymore, right? So, you know, it is a complex and dangerous world out there. And I don't envy IT folks I'd have to support, you know, these modernization and transformation efforts that are going on within the enterprise. It used to be, you mentioned it, Dave, you would argue about IBM versus Oracle versus this newcomer in the database space called Microsoft. And don't forget Sybase back in the day, but you know, now it's not just, which SQL vendor am I going to go with? It's all of these different, divergent data types that have to be taken, they have to be merged together, synthesized. And somehow I have to do that cleanly and use this to drive strategic decisions for my business. That is not easy. So, you know, you have to look at it from the perspective of the business user. It's great for them because as a DevOps person, or as an analyst, I have so much flexibility and I have this thing called the cloud now where I can go get services immediately. As an IT person or a DBA, I am calling up prevention hotlines 24 hours a day, because I don't know how I'm going to be able to support the business. And as an Oracle or as an Oracle or a Microsoft or some of the cloud providers and cloud databases out there, I'm licking my chops because, you know, my market is expanding and expanding every day. >> Great, thank you for that, Matt. Holgar, how do you see the world these days? You always have a good perspective on things, share with us. >> Well, I think it's the best time to be in IT, I'm not sure what Matt is talking about. (laughing) It's easier than ever, right? The direction is going to cloud. Kubernetes has won, Google has the best AI for now, right? So things are easier than ever before. You made commitments for five plus years on hardware, networking and so on premise, and I got gray hair about worrying it was the wrong decision. No, just kidding. But you kind of both sides, just to be controversial, make it interesting, right. So yeah, no, I think the interesting thing specifically with databases, right? We have this big suite versus best of breed, right? Obviously innovation, like you mentioned with Snowflake and others happening in the cloud, the cloud vendors server, where to save of their databases. And then we have one of the few survivors of the old guard as Evans likes to call them is Oracle who's doing well, both their traditional database. And now, which is really interesting, remarkable from that because Oracle it was always the power of one, have one database, add more to it, make it what I call the universal database. And now this new HeatWave offering is coming and MySQL open source side. So they're getting the second (indistinct) right? So it's interesting that older players, traditional players who still are in the market are diversifying their offerings. Something we don't see so much from the traditional tools from Oracle on the Microsoft side or the IBM side these days. >> Great, thank you Holgar. Bob Evans, you've covered this business for a while. You've worked at, you know, a number of different outlets and companies and you cover the competition, how do you see things? >> Dave, you know, the other angle to look at this from is from the customer side, right? You got now CEOs who are any sort of business across all sorts of industries, and they understand that their future success is going to be dependent on their ability to become a digital company, to understand data, to use it the right way. So as you outline Dave, I think in your intro there, it is a fantastic time to be in the database business. And I think we've got a lot of new buyers and influencers coming in. They don't know all this history about IBM and Microsoft and Oracle and you know, whoever else. So I think they're going to take a long, hard look, Dave, at some of these results and who is able to help these companies not serve up the best technology, but who's going to be able to help their business move into the digital future. So it's a fascinating time now from every perspective. >> Great points, Bob. I mean, digital transformation has gone from buzzword to imperative. Mr. Staimer, how do you see things? >> I see things a little bit differently than my peers here in that I see the database market being segmented. There's all the different kinds of databases that people are looking at for different kinds of data, and then there is databases in the cloud. And so database as cloud service, I view very differently than databases because the traditional way of implementing a database is changing and it's changing rapidly. So one of the premises that you stated earlier on was that you viewed Oracle as a database company. I don't view Oracle as a database company anymore. I view Oracle as a cloud company that happens to have a significant expertise and specialty in databases, and they still sell database software in the traditional way, but ultimately they're a cloud company. So database cloud services from my point of view is a very distinct market from databases. >> Okay, well, you gave us some good meat on the bone to talk about that. Last but not least-- >> Dave did Marc, just say Oracle's a cloud company? >> Yeah. (laughing) Take away the database, it would be interesting to have that discussion, but let's let Ron jump in here. Ron, give us your take. >> That's a great segue. I think it's truly the era of the cloud database, that's something that's rising. And the key trends that come with it include for example, elastic scaling. That is the ability to scale on demand, to right size workloads according to customer requirements. And also I think it's going to increase the prioritization for high availability. That is the player who can provide the highest availability is going to have, I think, a great deal of success in this emerging market. And also I anticipate that there will be more consolidation across platforms in order to enable cost savings for customers, and that's something that's always going to be important. And I think we'll see more of that over the horizon. And then finally security, security will be more important than ever. We've seen a spike (indistinct), we certainly have seen geopolitical originated cybersecurity concerns. And as a result, I see database security becoming all the more important. >> Great, thank you. Okay, let me share some data with you guys. I'm going to throw this at you and see what you think. We have this awesome data partner called Enterprise Technology Research, ETR. They do these quarterly surveys and each period with dozens of industry segments, they track clients spending, customer spending. And this is the database, data warehouse sector okay so it's taxonomy, so it's not perfect, but it's a big kind of chunk. They essentially ask customers within a category and buy a specific vendor, you're spending more or less on the platform? And then they subtract the lesses from the mores and they derive a metric called net score. It's like NPS, it's a measure of spending velocity. It's more complicated and granular than that, but that's the basis and that's the vertical axis. The horizontal axis is what they call market share, it's not like IDC market share, it's just pervasiveness in the data set. And so there are a couple of things that stand out here and that we can use as reference point. The first is the momentum of Snowflake. They've been off the charts for many, many, for over two years now, anything above that dotted red line, that 40%, is considered by ETR to be highly elevated and Snowflake's even way above that. And I think it's probably not sustainable. We're going to see in the next April survey, next month from those guys, when it comes out. And then you see AWS and Microsoft, they're really pervasive on the horizontal axis and highly elevated, Google falls behind them. And then you got a number of well funded players. You got Cockroach Labs, Mongo, Redis, MariaDB, which of course is a fork on MySQL started almost as protest at Oracle when they acquired Sun and they got MySQL and you can see the number of others. Now Oracle who's the leading database player, despite what Marc Staimer says, we know, (laughs) and they're a cloud player (laughing) who happens to be a leading database player. They dominate in the mission critical space, we know that they're the king of that sector, but you can see here that they're kind of legacy, right? They've been around a long time, they get a big install base. So they don't have the spending momentum on the vertical axis. Now remember this is, just really this doesn't capture spending levels, so that understates Oracle but nonetheless. So it's not a complete picture like SAP for instance is not in here, no Hana. I think people are actually buying it, but it doesn't show up here, (laughs) but it does give an indication of momentum and presence. So Bob Evans, I'm going to start with you. You've commented on many of these companies, you know, what does this data tell you? >> Yeah, you know, Dave, I think all these compilations of things like that are interesting, and that folks at ETR do some good work, but I think as you said, it's a snapshot sort of a two-dimensional thing of a rapidly changing, three dimensional world. You know, the incidents at which some of these companies are mentioned versus the volume that happens. I think it's, you know, with Oracle and I'm not going to declare my religious affiliation, either as cloud company or database company, you know, they're all of those things and more, and I think some of our old language of how we classify companies is just not relevant anymore. But I want to ask too something in here, the autonomous database from Oracle, nobody else has done that. So either Oracle is crazy, they've tried out a technology that nobody other than them is interested in, or they're onto something that nobody else can match. So to me, Dave, within Oracle, trying to identify how they're doing there, I would watch autonomous database growth too, because right, it's either going to be a big plan and it breaks through, or it's going to be caught behind. And the Snowflake phenomenon as you mentioned, that is a rare, rare bird who comes up and can grow 100% at a billion dollar revenue level like that. So now they've had a chance to come in, scare the crap out of everybody, rock the market with something totally new, the data cloud. Will the bigger companies be able to catch up and offer a compelling alternative, or is Snowflake going to continue to be this outlier. It's a fascinating time. >> Really, interesting points there. Holgar, I want to ask you, I mean, I've talked to certainly I'm sure you guys have too, the founders of Snowflake that came out of Oracle and they actually, they don't apologize. They say, "Hey, we not going to do all that complicated stuff that Oracle does, we were trying to keep it real simple." But at the same time, you know, they don't do sophisticated workload management. They don't do complex joints. They're kind of relying on the ecosystems. So when you look at the data like this and the various momentums, and we talked about the diverging strategies, what does this say to you? >> Well, it is a great point. And I think Snowflake is an example how the cloud can turbo charge a well understood concept in this case, the data warehouse, right? You move that and you find steroids and you see like for some players who've been big in data warehouse, like Sentara Data, as an example, here in San Diego, what could have been for them right in that part. The interesting thing, the problem though is the cloud hides a lot of complexity too, which you can scale really well as you attract lots of customers to go there. And you don't have to build things like what Bob said, right? One of the fascinating things, right, nobody's answering Oracle on the autonomous database. I don't think is that they cannot, they just have different priorities or the database is not such a priority. I would dare to say that it's for IBM and Microsoft right now at the moment. And the cloud vendors, you just hide that right through scripts and through scale because you support thousands of customers and you can deal with a little more complexity, right? It's not against them. Whereas if you have to run it yourself, very different story, right? You want to have the autonomous parts, you want to have the powerful tools to do things. >> Thank you. And so Matt, I want to go to you, you've set up front, you know, it's just complicated if you're in IT, it's a complicated situation and you've been on the customer side. And if you're a buyer, it's obviously, it's like Holgar said, "Cloud's supposed to make this stuff easier, but the simpler it gets the more complicated gets." So where do you place your bets? Or I guess more importantly, how do you decide where to place your bets? >> Yeah, it's a good question. And to what Bob and Holgar said, you know, the around autonomous database, I think, you know, part of, as I, you know, play kind of armchair psychologist, if you will, corporate psychologists, I look at what Oracle is doing and, you know, databases where they've made their mark and it's kind of, that's their strong position, right? So it makes sense if you're making an entry into this cloud and you really want to kind of build momentum, you go with what you're good at, right? So that's kind of the strength of Oracle. Let's put a lot of focus on that. They do a lot more than database, don't get me wrong, but you know, I'm going to short my strength and then kind of pivot from there. With regards to, you know, what IT looks at and what I would look at you know as an IT director or somebody who is, you know, trying to consume services from these different cloud providers. First and foremost, I go with what I know, right? Let's not forget IT is a conservative group. And when we look at, you know, all the different permutations of database types out there, SQL, NoSQL, all the different types of NoSQL, those are largely being deployed by business users that are looking for agility or businesses that are looking for agility. You know, the reason why MongoDB is so popular is because of DevOps, right? It's a great platform to develop on and that's where it kind of gained its traction. But as an IT person, I want to go with what I know, where my muscle memory is, and that's my first position. And so as I evaluate different cloud service providers and cloud databases, I look for, you know, what I know and what I've invested in and where my muscle memory is. Is there enough there and do I have enough belief that that company or that service is going to be able to take me to, you know, where I see my organization in five years from a data management perspective, from a business perspective, are they going to be there? And if they are, then I'm a little bit more willing to make that investment, but it is, you know, if I'm kind of going in this blind or if I'm cloud native, you know, that's where the Snowflakes of the world become very attractive to me. >> Thank you. So Marc, I asked Andy Jackson in theCube one time, you have all these, you know, data stores and different APIs and primitives and you know, very granular, what's the strategy there? And he said, "Hey, that allows us as the market changes, it allows us to be more flexible. If we start building abstractions layers, it's harder for us." I think also it was not a good time to market advantage, but let me ask you, I described earlier on that spectrum from AWS to Oracle. We just saw yesterday, Oracle announced, I think the third major enhancement in like 15 months to MySQL HeatWave, what do you make of that announcement? How do you think it impacts the competitive landscape, particularly as it relates to, you know, converging transaction and analytics, eliminating ELT, I know you have some thoughts on this. >> So let me back up for a second and defend my cloud statement about Oracle for a moment. (laughing) AWS did a great job in developing the cloud market in general and everything in the cloud market. I mean, I give them lots of kudos on that. And a lot of what they did is they took open source software and they rent it to people who use their cloud. So I give 'em lots of credit, they dominate the market. Oracle was late to the cloud market. In fact, they actually poo-pooed it initially, if you look at some of Larry Ellison's statements, they said, "Oh, it's never going to take off." And then they did 180 turn, and they said, "Oh, we're going to embrace the cloud." And they really have, but when you're late to a market, you've got to be compelling. And this ties into the announcement yesterday, but let's deal with this compelling. To be compelling from a user point of view, you got to be twice as fast, offer twice as much functionality, at half the cost. That's generally what compelling is that you're going to capture market share from the leaders who established the market. It's very difficult to capture market share in a new market for yourself. And you're right. I mean, Bob was correct on this and Holgar and Matt in which you look at Oracle, and they did a great job of leveraging their database to move into this market, give 'em lots of kudos for that too. But yesterday they announced, as you said, the third innovation release and the pace is just amazing of what they're doing on these releases on HeatWave that ties together initially MySQL with an integrated builtin analytics engine, so a data warehouse built in. And then they added automation with autopilot, and now they've added machine learning to it, and it's all in the same service. It's not something you can buy and put on your premise unless you buy their cloud customers stuff. But generally it's a cloud offering, so it's compellingly better as far as the integration. You don't buy multiple services, you buy one and it's lower cost than any of the other services, but more importantly, it's faster, which again, give 'em credit for, they have more integration of a product. They can tie things together in a way that nobody else does. There's no additional services, ETL services like Glue and AWS. So from that perspective, they're getting better performance, fewer services, lower cost. Hmm, they're aiming at the compelling side again. So from a customer point of view it's compelling. Matt, you wanted to say something there. >> Yeah, I want to kind of, on what you just said there Marc, and this is something I've found really interesting, you know. The traditional way that you look at software and, you know, purchasing software and IT is, you look at either best of breed solutions and you have to work on the backend to integrate them all and make them all work well. And generally, you know, the big hit against the, you know, we have one integrated offering is that, you lose capability or you lose depth of features, right. And to what you were saying, you know, that's the thing I found interesting about what Oracle is doing is they're building in depth as they kind of, you know, build that service. It's not like you're losing a lot of capabilities, because you're going to one integrated service versus having to use A versus B versus C, and I love that idea. >> You're right. Yeah, not only you're not losing, but you're gaining functionality that you can't get by integrating a lot of these. I mean, I can take Snowflake and integrate it in with machine learning, but I also have to integrate in with a transactional database. So I've got to have connectors between all of this, which means I'm adding time. And what it comes down to at the end of the day is expertise, effort, time, and cost. And so what I see the difference from the Oracle announcements is they're aiming at reducing all of that by increasing performance as well. Correct me if I'm wrong on that but that's what I saw at the announcement yesterday. >> You know, Marc, one thing though Marc, it's funny you say that because I started out saying, you know, I'm glad I'm not 19 anymore. And the reason is because of exactly what you said, it's almost like there's a pseudo level of witchcraft that's required to support the modern data environment right in the enterprise. And I need simpler faster, better. That's what I need, you know, I am no longer wearing pocket protectors. I have turned from, you know, break, fix kind of person, to you know, business consultant. And I need that point and click simplicity, but I can't sacrifice, you know, a depth of features of functionality on the backend as I play that consultancy role. >> So, Ron, I want to bring in Ron, you know, it's funny. So Matt, you mentioned Mongo, I often and say, if Oracle mentions you, you're on the map. We saw them yesterday Ron, (laughing) they hammered RedShifts auto ML, they took swipes at Snowflake, a little bit of BigQuery. What were your thoughts on that? Do you agree with what these guys are saying in terms of HeatWaves capabilities? >> Yes, Dave, I think that's an excellent question. And fundamentally I do agree. And the question is why, and I think it's important to know that all of the Oracle data is backed by the fact that they're using benchmarks. For example, all of the ML and all of the TPC benchmarks, including all the scripts, all the configs and all the detail are posted on GitHub. So anybody can look at these results and they're fully transparent and replicate themselves. If you don't agree with this data, then by all means challenge it. And we have not really seen that in all of the new updates in HeatWave over the last 15 months. And as a result, when it comes to these, you know, fundamentals in looking at the competitive landscape, which I think gives validity to outcomes such as Oracle being able to deliver 4.8 times better price performance than Redshift. As well as for example, 14.4 better price performance than Snowflake, and also 12.9 better price performance than BigQuery. And so that is, you know, looking at the quantitative side of things. But again, I think, you know, to Marc's point and to Matt's point, there are also qualitative aspects that clearly differentiate the Oracle proposition, from my perspective. For example now the MySQL HeatWave ML capabilities are native, they're built in, and they also support things such as completion criteria. And as a result, that enables them to show that hey, when you're using Redshift ML for example, you're having to also use their SageMaker tool and it's running on a meter. And so, you know, nobody really wants to be running on a meter when, you know, executing these incredibly complex tasks. And likewise, when it comes to Snowflake, they have to use a third party capability. They don't have the built in, it's not native. So the user, to the point that he's having to spend more time and it increases complexity to use auto ML capabilities across the Snowflake platform. And also, I think it also applies to other important features such as data sampling, for example, with the HeatWave ML, it's intelligent sampling that's being implemented. Whereas in contrast, we're seeing Redshift using random sampling. And again, Snowflake, you're having to use a third party library in order to achieve the same capabilities. So I think the differentiation is crystal clear. I think it definitely is refreshing. It's showing that this is where true value can be assigned. And if you don't agree with it, by all means challenge the data. >> Yeah, I want to come to the benchmarks in a minute. By the way, you know, the gentleman who's the Oracle's architect, he did a great job on the call yesterday explaining what you have to do. I thought that was quite impressive. But Bob, I know you follow the financials pretty closely and on the earnings call earlier this month, Ellison said that, "We're going to see HeatWave on AWS." And the skeptic in me said, oh, they must not be getting people to come to OCI. And then they, you remember this chart they showed yesterday that showed the growth of HeatWave on OCI. But of course there was no data on there, it was just sort of, you know, lines up and to the right. So what do you guys think of that? (Marc laughs) Does it signal Bob, desperation by Oracle that they can't get traction on OCI, or is it just really a smart tame expansion move? What do you think? >> Yeah, Dave, that's a great question. You know, along the way there, and you know, just inside of that was something that said Ellison said on earnings call that spoke to a different sort of philosophy or mindset, almost Marc, where he said, "We're going to make this multicloud," right? With a lot of their other cloud stuff, if you wanted to use any of Oracle's cloud software, you had to use Oracle's infrastructure, OCI, there was no other way out of it. But this one, but I thought it was a classic Ellison line. He said, "Well, we're making this available on AWS. We're making this available, you know, on Snowflake because we're going after those users. And once they see what can be done here." So he's looking at it, I guess you could say, it's a concession to customers because they want multi-cloud. The other way to look at it, it's a hunting expedition and it's one of those uniquely I think Oracle ways. He said up front, right, he doesn't say, "Well, there's a big market, there's a lot for everybody, we just want on our slice." Said, "No, we are going after Amazon, we're going after Redshift, we're going after Aurora. We're going after these users of Snowflake and so on." And I think it's really fairly refreshing these days to hear somebody say that, because now if I'm a buyer, I can look at that and say, you know, to Marc's point, "Do they measure up, do they crack that threshold ceiling? Or is this just going to be more pain than a few dollars savings is worth?" But you look at those numbers that Ron pointed out and that we all saw in that chart. I've never seen Dave, anything like that. In a substantive market, a new player coming in here, and being able to establish differences that are four, seven, eight, 10, 12 times better than competition. And as new buyers look at that, they're going to say, "What the hell are we doing paying, you know, five times more to get a poor result? What's going on here?" So I think this is going to rattle people and force a harder, closer look at what these alternatives are. >> I wonder if the guy, thank you. Let's just skip ahead of the benchmarks guys, bring up the next slide, let's skip ahead a little bit here, which talks to the benchmarks and the benchmarking if we can. You know, David Floyer, the sort of semiretired, you know, Wikibon analyst said, "Dave, this is going to force Amazon and others, Snowflake," he said, "To rethink actually how they architect databases." And this is kind of a compilation of some of the data that they shared. They went after Redshift mostly, (laughs) but also, you know, as I say, Snowflake, BigQuery. And, like I said, you can always tell which companies are doing well, 'cause Oracle will come after you, but they're on the radar here. (laughing) Holgar should we take this stuff seriously? I mean, or is it, you know, a grain salt? What are your thoughts here? >> I think you have to take it seriously. I mean, that's a great question, great point on that. Because like Ron said, "If there's a flaw in a benchmark, we know this database traditionally, right?" If anybody came up that, everybody will be, "Oh, you put the wrong benchmark, it wasn't audited right, let us do it again," and so on. We don't see this happening, right? So kudos to Oracle to be aggressive, differentiated, and seem to having impeccable benchmarks. But what we really see, I think in my view is that the classic and we can talk about this in 100 years, right? Is the suite versus best of breed, right? And the key question of the suite, because the suite's always slower, right? No matter at which level of the stack, you have the suite, then the best of breed that will come up with something new, use a cloud, put the data warehouse on steroids and so on. The important thing is that you have to assess as a buyer what is the speed of my suite vendor. And that's what you guys mentioned before as well, right? Marc said that and so on, "Like, this is a third release in one year of the HeatWave team, right?" So everybody in the database open source Marc, and there's so many MySQL spinoffs to certain point is put on shine on the speed of (indistinct) team, putting out fundamental changes. And the beauty of that is right, is so inherent to the Oracle value proposition. Larry's vision of building the IBM of the 21st century, right from the Silicon, from the chip all the way across the seven stacks to the click of the user. And that what makes the database what Rob was saying, "Tied to the OCI infrastructure," because designed for that, it runs uniquely better for that, that's why we see the cross connect to Microsoft. HeatWave so it's different, right? Because HeatWave runs on cheap hardware, right? Which is the breadth and butter 886 scale of any cloud provider, right? So Oracle probably needs it to scale OCI in a different category, not the expensive side, but also allow us to do what we said before, the multicloud capability, which ultimately CIOs really want, because data gravity is real, you want to operate where that is. If you have a fast, innovative offering, which gives you more functionality and the R and D speed is really impressive for the space, puts away bad results, then it's a good bet to look at. >> Yeah, so you're saying, that we versus best of breed. I just want to sort of play back then Marc a comment. That suite versus best of breed, there's always been that trade off. If I understand you Holgar you're saying that somehow Oracle has magically cut through that trade off and they're giving you the best of both. >> It's the developing velocity, right? The provision of important features, which matter to buyers of the suite vendor, eclipses the best of breed vendor, then the best of breed vendor is in the hell of a potential job. >> Yeah, go ahead Marc. >> Yeah and I want to add on what Holgar just said there. I mean the worst job in the data center is data movement, moving the data sucks. I don't care who you are, nobody likes it. You never get any kudos for doing it well, and you always get the ah craps, when things go wrong. So it's in- >> In the data center Marc all the time across data centers, across cloud. That's where the bleeding comes. >> It's right, you get beat up all the time. So nobody likes to move data, ever. So what you're looking at with what they announce with HeatWave and what I love about HeatWave is it doesn't matter when you started with it, you get all the additional features they announce it's part of the service, all the time. But they don't have to move any of the data. You want to analyze the data that's in your transactional, MySQL database, it's there. You want to do machine learning models, it's there, there's no data movement. The data movement is the key thing, and they just eliminate that, in so many ways. And the other thing I wanted to talk about is on the benchmarks. As great as those benchmarks are, they're really conservative 'cause they're underestimating the cost of that data movement. The ETLs, the other services, everything's left out. It's just comparing HeatWave, MySQL cloud service with HeatWave versus Redshift, not Redshift and Aurora and Glue, Redshift and Redshift ML and SageMaker, it's just Redshift. >> Yeah, so what you're saying is what Oracle's doing is saying, "Okay, we're going to run MySQL HeatWave benchmarks on analytics against Redshift, and then we're going to run 'em in transaction against Aurora." >> Right. >> But if you really had to look at what you would have to do with the ETL, you'd have to buy two different data stores and all the infrastructure around that, and that goes away so. >> Due to the nature of the competition, they're running narrow best of breed benchmarks. There is no suite level benchmark (Dave laughs) because they created something new. >> Well that's you're the earlier point they're beating best of breed with a suite. So that's, I guess to Floyer's earlier point, "That's going to shake things up." But I want to come back to Bob Evans, 'cause I want to tap your Cloud Wars mojo before we wrap. And line up the horses, you got AWS, you got Microsoft, Google and Oracle. Now they all own their own cloud. Snowflake, Mongo, Couchbase, Redis, Cockroach by the way they're all doing very well. They run in the cloud as do many others. I think you guys all saw the Andreessen, you know, commentary from Sarah Wang and company, to talk about the cost of goods sold impact of cloud. So owning your own cloud has to be an advantage because other guys like Snowflake have to pay cloud vendors and negotiate down versus having the whole enchilada, Safra Catz's dream. Bob, how do you think this is going to impact the market long term? >> Well, Dave, that's a great question about, you know, how this is all going to play out. If I could mention three things, one, Frank Slootman has done a fantastic job with Snowflake. Really good company before he got there, but since he's been there, the growth mindset, the discipline, the rigor and the phenomenon of what Snowflake has done has forced all these bigger companies to really accelerate what they're doing. And again, it's an example of how this intense competition makes all the different cloud vendors better and it provides enormous value to customers. Second thing I wanted to mention here was look at the Adam Selipsky effect at AWS, took over in the middle of May, and in Q2, Q3, Q4, AWS's growth rate accelerated. And in each of those three quotas, they grew faster than Microsoft's cloud, which has not happened in two or three years, so they're closing the gap on Microsoft. The third thing, Dave, in this, you know, incredibly intense competitive nature here, look at Larry Ellison, right? He's got his, you know, the product that for the last two or three years, he said, "It's going to help determine the future of the company, autonomous database." You would think he's the last person in the world who's going to bring in, you know, in some ways another database to think about there, but he has put, you know, his whole effort and energy behind this. The investments Oracle's made, he's riding this horse really hard. So it's not just a technology achievement, but it's also an investment priority for Oracle going forward. And I think it's going to form a lot of how they position themselves to this new breed of buyer with a new type of need and expectations from IT. So I just think the next two or three years are going to be fantastic for people who are lucky enough to get to do the sorts of things that we do. >> You know, it's a great point you made about AWS. Back in 2018 Q3, they were doing about 7.4 billion a quarter and they were growing in the mid forties. They dropped down to like 29% Q4, 2020, I'm looking at the data now. They popped back up last quarter, last reported quarter to 40%, that is 17.8 billion, so they more doubled and they accelerated their growth rate. (laughs) So maybe that pretends, people are concerned about Snowflake right now decelerating growth. You know, maybe that's going to be different. By the way, I think Snowflake has a different strategy, the whole data cloud thing, data sharing. They're not trying to necessarily take Oracle head on, which is going to make this next 10 years, really interesting. All right, we got to go, last question. 30 seconds or less, what can we expect from the future of data platforms? Matt, please start. >> I have to go first again? You're killing me, Dave. (laughing) In the next few years, I think you're going to see the major players continue to meet customers where they are, right. Every organization, every environment is, you know, kind of, we use these words bespoke in Snowflake, pardon the pun, but Snowflakes, right. But you know, they're all opinionated and unique and what's great as an IT person is, you know, there is a service for me regardless of where I am on my journey, in my data management journey. I think you're going to continue to see with regards specifically to Oracle, I think you're going to see the company continue along this path of being all things to all people, if you will, or all organizations without sacrificing, you know, kind of richness of features and sacrificing who they are, right. Look, they are the data kings, right? I mean, they've been a database leader for an awful long time. I don't see that going away any time soon and I love the innovative spirit they've brought in with HeatWave. >> All right, great thank you. Okay, 30 seconds, Holgar go. >> Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing that we see is really that trend to autonomous as Oracle calls or self-driving software, right? So the database will have to do more things than just store the data and support the DVA. It will have to show it can wide insights, the whole upside, it will be able to show to one machine learning. We haven't really talked about that. How in just exciting what kind of use case we can get of machine learning running real time on data as it changes, right? So, which is part of the E5 announcement, right? So we'll see more of that self-driving nature in the database space. And because you said we can promote it, right. Check out my report about HeatWave latest release where I post in oracle.com. >> Great, thank you for that. And Bob Evans, please. You're great at quick hits, hit us. >> Dave, thanks. I really enjoyed getting to hear everybody's opinion here today and I think what's going to happen too. I think there's a new generation of buyers, a new set of CXO influencers in here. And I think what Oracle's done with this, MySQL HeatWave, those benchmarks that Ron talked about so eloquently here that is going to become something that forces other companies, not just try to get incrementally better. I think we're going to see a massive new wave of innovation to try to play catch up. So I really take my hat off to Oracle's achievement from going to, push everybody to be better. >> Excellent. Marc Staimer, what do you say? >> Sure, I'm going to leverage off of something Matt said earlier, "Those companies that are going to develop faster, cheaper, simpler products that are going to solve customer problems, IT problems are the ones that are going to succeed, or the ones who are going to grow. The one who are just focused on the technology are going to fall by the wayside." So those who can solve more problems, do it more elegantly and do it for less money are going to do great. So Oracle's going down that path today, Snowflake's going down that path. They're trying to do more integration with third party, but as a result, aiming at that simpler, faster, cheaper mentality is where you're going to continue to see this market go. >> Amen brother Marc. >> Thank you, Ron Westfall, we'll give you the last word, bring us home. >> Well, thank you. And I'm loving it. I see a wave of innovation across the entire cloud database ecosystem and Oracle is fueling it. We are seeing it, with the native integration of auto ML capabilities, elastic scaling, lower entry price points, et cetera. And this is just going to be great news for buyers, but also developers and increased use of open APIs. And so I think that is really the key takeaways. Just we're going to see a lot of great innovation on the horizon here. >> Guys, fantastic insights, one of the best power panel as I've ever done. Love to have you back. Thanks so much for coming on today. >> Great job, Dave, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCube and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

(upbeat instrumental music) >> Hey, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of the International Women Showcase 2022. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I'm pleased to welcome my next guest, Jadesola Adedeji, the Chief Executive Officer of STEM METS. Jadesola, it's wonderful to have you on the program. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. It's great to be here, thank you. >> I was looking you up on LinkedIn and I noticed that your profile describes you as a social entrepreneur. Talk to me about that. >> Well, basically, the idea is that we are a business but we are in the social segment. And of course, that segment for us is education, which is obviously is one of the critical, you know, things that you need in life to thrive and to progress. So it's a social need and we are in that space trying to make a difference and bridge a gap that is in the education sector, which is around digital skills, 21st century skills. >> Jadesola, talk to me about STEM METS, the impetus to found this organization which you and a physician friend founded seven years ago. What was the genesis? >> Okay, so about 10 years ago, my husband and I moved back to Nigeria from North America, where we'd been working and studying. And we decided that we would take our experience and education back home, as well as our young kids, who were six and 10 at the time. But when we got home, what we found was a broken and impoverished educational system. And Nigeria was, you know, essential in our own foundational years. So it was really shocking and disappointing that our education system hadn't moved with the 21st century. A lot of our youth were leaving school without the relevant skills for them to get meaningful jobs. So my co-founder and I decided to do something about that by bringing in a different and more up-to-date way of learning and teaching, which was in STEM education. And so that's how we started, so both of us had a STEM background and we decided that, well, we would do something or attempt to do something about the state of our education in Nigeria. And so that's how we started. >> I love that. And you were talking to me a little bit earlier about the enrollment rate of students. Share with the audience what some of those statistics are and why this STEM METS program is so pivotal. >> Mm hmm. So as I said earlier, there are about 80 million school-age children in Nigeria. There are 10 million children that are out of school, of which about 50 to 60% are actually girls. So we are already at a disadvantage regarding our female population and even diversity in education. And so for us, we saw it as being bad enough that we can't even get into school and then when we get into school, you're not getting quality education. You get an education, but not sufficient enough with skills to get you meaningful jobs. And so for us, STEM education was the answer to trying to bring up the quality of our education and making sure that what the learning that was going on was relevant to the 21st century, which is innovation-driven, which is technology-driven, and combining that with soft skills that are required for the future workplace or even a life in entrepreneurship. And so, that's what we did in response to that. >> Tell us a little bit about the curriculum. And also, are you focused on young, school-age children, primary school, high school? >> Sure. So the great thing about what we do is that early years is essential, we feel, because those are the foundational years when the brain is developing. So we run programs for children from ages three to 16 and we run a variety of programs, so anything from construction with Lego, robotics, coding, UX design, sound and technology, just to be able to show the array of skills and modules that are available under the STEM umbrella, and also be able to showcase the diversity in terms of career options that are available to the children in our community. >> Who are some of the educators? Because one of the things that we say often when we talk about women in STEM and women in tech or some of the challenges with respect to that is, we can't be what we can't see. Talk to me about some of the mentors or the educators within STEM METS that these young girls can have a chance, as young as three, to look up to. >> Well, so that's the thing. So, I think fundamentally, our co-founders, myself and my co-founder were pivotal in terms of positioning ourselves as role models. We're female, we both had a STEM background. And then, secondly, our educators. Not being sexist, but about 90% of our educators are female. So we train them. We make sure they have the skills that they require to also implement our programs. And that is a secondary way of also showcasing to the children and the girls that we are teaching, that look, you know, STEM isn't just for boys. These are live and present role models that you can aspire to be. And we also felt that it was essential for us to recruit from the female pool, and it also helps working mothers. So they are able to look after their family, as well as still earn an income to support their families. Otherwise, they would have to give up one or the other. And because our programs are supplementary classes and we run them as after school clubs or holiday clubs, they are able to manage their time and their family accordingly. So we see what we are doing as two programs. We are educating the kids, we are educating the girls, but we're also capacity building in terms the female work force. So yes, we think that what we're doing is just really feeding the female ecosystem and just ensuring that we are developing women with relevant skills. >> So she can be what she can see because you're enabling her to see it. Talk to me about like the number of educators versus the number of girls that are in the program so far in the first seven years. >> Okay, so to date, we've reached about 10,000 learners, of which I would say about 40% are female. Obviously, our aim is to be sure that that number increases. So we're quite targeted in some of our programs, particularly the ones that we take to low-resource community. We are supported by brands from organizations such as Airbus Foundation, so that enables us to take our programs to the low-resource community and we ensure that the enrollment and the sign-up is equitable, ensuring that the girls also have access to it. >> I'm curious about your background. You said you were 20 years in the pharmaceutical industry. Were you always interested in STEM fields since you were a child or is that something that you got into a little bit later? >> Actually I think unconsciously, well, since I was a child. In our culture, at least then when I was growing up, you were either a doctor, or an engineer, or a lawyer. So there were specific pathways. So if you were in the liberal arts, you were expected to go into maybe law. If you were in science, engineering, or medicine. So I went down the pathway of pharmacy as a sort of in-between because I wasn't very good at physics so engineering wasn't an option. But I think growing up, you know, I felt that we had role models that we could also look up to, so going into the STEM field was something that, you know, was somewhat natural actually in my educational journey. Yeah, so that's how I got into the STEM field, encouraged by my dad actually. You know, he said, "You know, if you're going to "go into a life science sector, "make sure you have something that is professional, "something that can make you independent." So my career started in the pharma industry but then I ended up running my own businesses, as well, so I had a couple of pharmacies in Canada when we lived there. So I ran that as a businesswoman, but still in the life science field. >> So you've reached 10,000 youths so far and you're showing them all about STEM. STEM is a very broad mix of science, technology, engineering, mathematics, arts, as well, if we go to the STEAM area. So you're showing these kids there's so much breadth and depth there within the STEM in and of itself. >> Exactly. So that's why we oftentimes ensure that we have a variety of programs. So, and also, educating the parents and the public that STEM does not mean you're going to be a coder. You know, you can be a graphic designer, you could be a fashion designer even, UX design, you could be a robotics engineer, you could be a pharmacist. You know, so we try and bring in programs that just exposes them to a huge array of career options. One of the programs we brought in last year was a program that Spotify runs, which combines sound and technology. So making beats, making podcasts, and in there was literacy, as well. How do you pull rhymes together? You know, if you wanted to, you know, so music production, sound production, you know, writing poems and literacy. So the idea there is to say the skill sets are transferrable not just within the STEM field but also non-STEM field. So let's not forget, it's not just a technical skills development program. We are learning critical thinking, communication, problem solving, collaboration, how can you work effectively, resilience. So they are life skills that are also incorporated into the concept of STEM education. >> That's so important because as you shared with us, your 20-year history in the pharmaceutical industry, you ran businesses, you ran own pharmacies, you parlayed your expertise in the STEM field into running STEM METS. But what you're showing these kids that you've reached so far and all the many tens of thousands that you'll reach in the future that it's not just doctor, lawyer, firefighter. There are so many, I love how you have a program with Spotify. Kids probably go, "Wait, what? "Music production? "I wouldn't have thought of that "as under the STEM umbrella." But you're showing them, you're making them aware that there's so much breadth to what STEM actually is. >> Exactly, and I think the idea is to inspire creativity and innovation. That there's always a different way to do things. And so, STEM education is actually developing learning and thinking skills. You know, it's not just rote learning or cramming or theory. And you're applying it to real-life situations and real-life scenarios. So, I always say that our vision is to raise future leaders and problem solvers and equip them with skills to tackle challenges affecting our continent, as well as the world. So those skill sets are terribly important really and have a mindset of viewing everything as bringing solutions to any potential challenges that you may face, even personally. >> Which is incredibly important, especially as we've learned in the last two years that we've all lived through. I'm curious that you've got two kids you said, are they showing interest in the STEM arena? >> We are actually quite a STEM family. So my husband's background is in chemical engineering. My son just finished his undergrad in computer science and is doing a post-grad in computer games programming. My daughter is going to university this fall and she's looking into biochemical engineering. So I think the STEM thing was passed along. Not under duress, I think they just showed a general affinity for that. But I mean, we exposed them to a plethora of different programs so we are here now. >> And you're a STEM family. But that exposure is what it's all about, like we talked a minute ago about, you know, she can be what she can see. She needs to be able to see that, she needs to have that exposure, and that's what you're helping to accomplish with the STEM METS. Talk to me, last question. What are some of the objectives that you have for the next, say, two to five years with STEM METS? >> So for us in the next two to five years is really looking for opportunities to extend the reach of our program. With COVID, obviously we had to pivot online so we're seeing ourselves now as a blended learning education company. So we want to build out our online presence and capability. We definitely are looking to reaching about five to 10 thousand learners per year so we're really looking at, you know, our path to scaling. And that could be things like trainer sessions where we also equip our teachers, who then go on to equip students in their community or in their schools, as well. So path to scaling is really important to us and we are looking to see how technology can help us do that. >> Excellent. Well, we wish you the best of luck on your path to scale, and congratulations on all the success and the youths that you have reached so far. Sounds like a great organization and we appreciate learning about that and having the chance to educate more folks on what the STEM METS program is all about. Jadesola, thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you, Lisa. For Jadesola Adedeji, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of the International Women Showcase 2022. (upbeat instrumental music)

(energetic music) >> Hello, welcome to the CUBE's coverage of Boomi's Out of This World event. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We've got two great guests here, Chris McNabb, CEO of Boomi, and Ed Macosky, SVP and Head of Products, talking about hyper automation and the future of connectivity. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on theCUBE, great to see you. >> John, it is great to see you again as well. Looking forward to the next in-person one. >> I miss the in-person events, you guys have had great events and a lot of action happening. Love the big news of going out on your own direction, big financing, change of control, all that good stuff happening, industries growing. Chris, this is a big move. You know, the industry is changing. Can you give us some context to, you know, what's going on in automation and connectivity, because iPaaS, which you guys have pioneered, have been a big part of Cloud and CloudScale, and now we're seeing next-generation things happening. Data, automation, edge, modern application development, all happening. Set some context, what's going on? >> Yeah John, listen, it's a great time to be in our space at this point in time. Our customers, at the end of the day, are looking to create what we announced at last year's thing, called Integrated Experiences, which is the combination of user engagement, more awesome connectivity, and making sure high quality data goes through that experience, and providing 21st century experiences. And we're right at the heart of that work. Our platform really drives all the services that are needed there. But what our customers really need and what we're here to focus on today, that this world is to make sure that we have the world's best cut connectivity capabilities, and process automation engagement of constituents to really do what they want to do, where they want to do it. >> So a lot of big moves happening, what's the story? Take us through the story. I mean, you guys have a transaction with big sum financing, setting up this intelligence connectivity and automation approach. Take us through the story, what happened? >> Yeah. So, you know, the lead business was sold outside of Dell and that deal closed. We are now owned by two top tier private equity firms, FP and TPG. That sale is completed and now we are ready to unleash the Boomi business on this market. I think it's a great, it's a great transaction for Dell, and it's a great transaction for FP, PTG but most specifically, it's really a world-class transaction for the Boomi business, the Boomi customer base, as well as the Boomi employee. So I really looked at this as a win-win-win and sets us up for really going after this one. >> Yeah, and there's a huge wave coming and you're seeing like the, the big wave coming. It's just like, no need to debate it. It's here. It's cloud 2.0, whatever you want to call it, it's scale. IT has completely figured out, that not only is replatforming the cloud, but you got to be in the cloud refactoring. This is driving the innovation. And, this is really I see where you guys are leading. So share with me what is hyper automation? What is that actually mean? >> So what hyper automation really is, is intelligent connectivity automation. So our customers have been doing this. It's very specifically related to taking workflows, taking automation within the business. That's been around for a long time anyway, but adding AI and ML to it. So, as you continue to automate your business, you're getting more and more steam, and you get more and more productivity out of the (mumbles) organization or productivity from the (mumbles). >> So Chris, tell us more about this hyper automation, because you guys have a large install base. Take us through some of the numbers of the customer base, and where the dots are connecting as they look at the new IT landscape as it transforms. >> Yeah. John, great question. You know, when I talk to, you know as many of our 18,000 customers worldwide as I can get to, you know, what they are saying very clearly is their IT news feed is getting more complicated, more distributed, more siloed, and it has more data. And as you work through that problem, what they're trying to accomplish, is they're trying to engage their constituents in a 21st century web, however they want, whether it be mobile web, portals, chat bots, old fashioned telephones. And in doing that, that complicated area is extraordinarily difficult. So that's the pervasive problem that Boomi is purpose-built to help solve. And our customers start out sometimes with just great connectivity. Hyper automation is where the real value comes in. That's where your constituents see a complete difference in how I inter-operate with (mumbles). >> So, first of all, I love the word hyper automation because it reminds me of hyper scale, which, you know, look at the Amazons and the cloud players. You know, that kind of game has kind of evolved. I mean, the old joke is what inning are we in, right? And, and I, to use a baseball metaphor, I think it's a doubleheader and game one is won by the cloud. Right? So, Amazon wins game one, game two is all about data. You guys, this is core to Boomi and I want to get your thoughts on this because data is the competitive advantage. But if you look at the pandemic and the stories that we're reporting on, and this reinvent specifically, that'll be a big story. The refactoring in the cloud is a big strategic effort, not just replatforming, refactoring in the cloud. So this is really where you guys are, I think, skating where the puck is. Am I getting it right, can you just share that vision? >> Yeah, John. From a vision perspective, I think the pandemic has really accelerated people's expectations. You know what we need to be more nimble, more flexible. And because they had a fair amount in the Cloud they have to understand what is the next tier, what is the next generation offerings that we put together tie together and connect. That is not only connecting systems, apps, databases, and clouds. You're connecting people, processes and devices. So we're going to have a great story here and out of this world about how we connect bio centric vest to a video system who a network monitoring hub to protect the officer's safety in Amsterdam in real-time. We can deploy officers to location all automatic. All decisions are automatic, all locations, cameras (mumbles) all automatically. And that's only possible, when we think about next generation technology that Boomi provides. Next generation capabilities by the other providers in that solution. >> Ed, before we get to the product announcements for the even, we'll get your reaction to that. I see in the cloud you can refactor, you got data, you got latency issues. These are all kind of go away when you start thinking about integrating it altogether. What's your reaction to refactoring as the next step? >> Yeah. So my regular, I mean, exactly what Chris said, but as our customers are moving to the cloud, they're not choosing any more, just one cloud. It is a multi-cloud it's multidimensional (mumbles), you got multi-cloud, you got hybrid cloud, you have edge devices, et cetera. And our technology just naturally puts this in the space to do that. And based on what we see with our customers, we actually have, we've connected over 189,000 different devices, application points, data endpoints, et cetera to people. And we're seeing that growth of 44% year on year. So, we're seeing that explosion in helping customers, and we just want to accelerate that, and help them react to these changes as quickly as they possibly can. And a lot of it doesn't require, you know, massive upload project technology. We've been lucky enough to be visionaries that with our deployment technology, being able to embrace this new environment that's coming up or we're right at the forefront of this (mumbles). >> Yeah. I love the intelligence saying, I love hyper automation. Okay, let's get into the product announcements of Out of This World event. What are some of the announcements, and share with us the key highlights. >> Yeah. So first and foremost, we've announced a vision in our tactic. So I talked about the 189,000 applications that we did data endpoints, et cetera, that our customers are picking today. And they're moving very, very rapidly with that and it's no longer about name, connections, and having these fixed auxiliary that connects to applications you need to be able to react intelligently, pick the next endpoint and connect very quickly and bring that into your ecosystem. So we've got this vision towards the connectivity service that we're working on that will basically normalize that connectivity across all of the applications that are plugging into Boomi's iPaaS ecosystem and allow customers to get up and running very quickly. So I'm really excited about that. The other thing we announced is Boomi event streams. So in order to complete this, we can't just, we've been on this EDA journey Event-Driven Architecture for the last couple of years, and embracing an open ecosystem. But we found that in order to go faster for our customers, it's very, very important that we bring this into Boomi's iPaaS platform. Our partnerships in this area are still very important for us. But there is an avenue that our customers are demanding that, "hey, bring us into your platform." And we need to move faster with this, and our new Boomi event streams will allow them to do that. We also recently just announced the Boomi Discover Catalog. So this is the, this is an ongoing vision us. We're, building up into a marketplace where customers and partners can all participate, whether it's inside of a customer's ecosystem or partners, or Boomi, et cetera, offering these quick onboarding solutions for their customers. So we will learn intelligently as people have these solutions to help customers onboard, and build, and connect to these systems faster. So that's kind of how they all come together for us In a hyper automation scenario the last thing too, is we are working on RPA as a last mile connectivity that's where we start RPAs today, you know, gone are going to be the days of having RPA at a desktop perspective where you have to have someone manually run that. Although its RPA our runtime technology extends the desktops anyway. So we are going to bring RPA technology into the IPaaS platform as we move forward here so that our customers can enjoy the benefits of that as well. >> That's real quick. It was going to ask about the fence stream. I love this RPA angle. Tell me more about how that impacts is that's that's what I think, pretty big what's the impact of when you bring robotic processes on our RPA into iPaaS, what's the, what's the impact of the customer? >> The impact of the customer is that we believe that customers can really enjoy true cloud when it comes to RPA technology today, most of the RPA technologies, like I said, are deployed at a desktop and they are, they are manually run by some folks. It helps speed up the business user and adds some value there. But our technology will surely bring it to the cloud and allow that connectivity of what an arm robotic process automation solution will be doing and can tap into the iPaaS ecosystem and extend and connect that data up into the cloud or even other operating systems that the customer (mumbles). >> Okay. So on the event streams that you did, you guys announced, obviously it's the best part of the embedded event driven architecture, You guys have been part of. What is, why is it important for customers? Can you just take a minute to explain why event streams and why event driven approaches are important. >> Because customers need access to the data real time. So, so there's two reasons why it's very important to the customers one is Event Driven Architectures are on the rise, in order to truly scale up an environment. If you're talking tens of millions of transactions, you need to have an Event Driven Architecture in place in order to manage that state. So you don't have any message loss or any of those types of things. So it's important that we continue to invest as we continue to scale on our customers and they scale up their environments with us. The other reason it is very important for us to bring it into our ecosystem, within our platform is that our customers enjoy the luxury of having an integrated experience themselves as they're building, you know, intelligent connectivity and automation solutions within our platform. So to ask a customer, to go work with a third party technology versus enjoying it in an integrated experience itself is why we want to bring it in and have them get their (mumbles) much faster. >> I really think you guys are onto something because it's a partnership world. Ecosystems are now everywhere. There's ecosystems, because everything's a platform now that's evolving from tools to platforms and it's not a one platform rules the world. This is the benefit of how the clouds emerging, almost a whole nother set of cloud capabilities. I love this vision and you start to see that, and you guys did talk about this thing called conductivity marketplace. And what is that? Is that a, is that a place where people are sharing instead of partnershipping? I know there's a lot of partners are connected with each other and they want to have it all automated. How does this all play in? Can you just quickly explain that? >> Yeah, so in the last year we launched and we actually launched open source community around connectors and that sort of thing we invested pretty heavily in RSDK. We see quite a big uptake in the ecosystem of them building specific connectors, as well as solution. And our partners were very excited about partnering with us and (mumbles) to markets and those sorts of things that they can offer solutions to their customers on a marketplace. So, so we are reacting to the popular demand that we have from our partners and customers where they say, Hey, we'd love to participate in this marketplace. We'd love to be able to work with you and publish solutions that we're delivering more customers. So, so we're, we're fulfilling that mission on behalf of our customers and partners. >> You know, Chris, when you look at the cloud native ecosystem at the high level, you're seeing opensource driving a big part of it, large enterprises, large customers are moving to that next level of modern application development. They're partnering, right? They're going to out, outsource and partner some, some edge components, maybe bring someone else over here, have a supplier everything's confide now in the cloud, AKA dev ops meets, you know, business logic. So this seems to be validated. How do you see this evolving? How does this iPaaS kind of environment just become the environment? I mean, it seems to me that that's what's happening. What's your reaction to the, to that trend? >> I think as iPaaS evolves we've extended the breadth of our iPaaS dramatically. We're not an integration platform. We're, we take the broadest definition of the word integration I guess I'll say it that way. You'll be integrating people. Connecting people is just as important as connecting cloud applications So, you know, that that's part one in terms of the vision of what it is two is going to be the importance of speed and productivity. It's critically important that people can figure out how to reconnect because endpoints are exploding. You have to connect these extraordinarily quickly infractions of the amount of time that it ever took and coding, code is just not the way that that works. You have to have it abstracted and you have to make it simpler, low-code, no-code environments, configuration based environments, make it simpler for more people outside of IT to actually use the solutions. So that's where these platforms become much more pervasive than the enterprise, solve a much bigger problem, and they solve it at speeds. So, you know, the vision for this is just to continue to accelerate that, you know, when we got started here, things used to take months and months, you know, it came down to weeks, it came down to days, it's in to hours. We're looking at seconds to define connectivity in an easy button, those get connected and get working. That's our vision for intelligent connectivity. >> Okay, so we're talking about hyper automation in the future context. That's the segment here? What is a feature conductivity? Take me through that. How does that evolve? I can see marketplace. I can see an ecosystem. I see people connecting with partners and applications and data. What is the future of connectivity? >> The vision, right? For connectivity, and they talk about our connectivity as a service, but you know, you have to think about it as connectivity instead of connectors, like an NBO, a thing that talks to it, and what we look at is like, you should be able to point to an endpoint, pick a cloud app, any cloud application.  You have an API. I should be able to automatically programmatically and dynamically, anytime I want go interrogate that, browse it in the button and I've established connectivity, and the amount of take, in the amount of time it's taken me to explain it, you should almost be able to work through it and be connected to that and talking to that endpoint, we're going to bring that kind of connectivity, that dynamic generated, automatic connectivity, in to our platform, and that's the vision >> And people connect to user from a product standpoint and this should be literally plug and play, so to speak, old, old term, but really seamlessly, automated play, automate and play kind of just connect. >> Yes, absolutely. And what Chris was talking, I was thinking about a customer to be named, but one of the, during one of the interviews coming up at Out of this World, the customer was describing to us today, already the capabilities that we have, where he is, a CTO was able to get an integration up and running before this team was able to write the requirements for the integration. So, so those are the types of things we're looking to continue add to, to add to. And we're also, you know, not asking our customers to make a choice. You can scale up and scale down. It's very important for our customers to realize whether the problem's really big or really small our platforms there to get it done fast and in a secure way. >> I see a lot of people integrating in the cloud with each other and themselves other apps, seeing huge benefits while still working on premise across multiple environments. So this kind of new operating models evolving, some people call it refactoring, whatever term you want to use. It's a change of, of a value creation, creates new value. So as you guys go out, Chris, take us through your vision on next steps. Okay. You're, you're going to be independent. You got the financing behind you. Dell got a nice deal. You guys are going forward. What's next for boomi? >> Well, listen John, we, we, you know, we couldn't be more excited having the opportunity to truly unleash, you know, this business out on the market and you know, our employees are super excited. Our customers are going to benefit. Our customers are going to get a lot more product innovation every single day, we are ready to put out 11 releases a year. There's literally a hundred different features we put in that product. We're looking to double down on that and really accelerate our path towards those things what we were talking about today. Engagement with our customers gets to get much better, you know, doubling down on customer success. People support people, PSL in the field gets us engaging our customers in so many different ways. There's so much more folks that when we partner with our customers, we care about their overall success, and this investment really gives us so many avenues now to double down on and making sure that their journey with us and their journey towards their success as a business and how we can help them. Some of them, we help them get there. >> You guys got a lot of trajectory and experience and knowledge in this industry I think. It's really kind of a great position to be in. And as you guys take on this next wave, Chris McNabb, CEO Boomi, Ed Macosky, SVP, head of projects, thanks for coming on the cube, and this is the cube coverage of Boomi's Out of This World. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> I've got Madhav Mekala here with me, commerce architect at PepsiCo Madhav welcome to the program. >> Thank you Lisa. >> So we're going to be talking about the solution that you implemented that helped with the global supply chain. So let's talk first about your role, commerce architect. Help me understand that a little bit better. >> So Frito-Lay PepsiCo is pretty big. It's a conglomerate of multiple product lines. So I worked for Frito-Lay, which is basically all the salty snacks and then we have a Quaker products as well in our portfolio. So I oversee all the architecture for all the commercial IoT solutions in the FNA portfolio. >> Got it all the commercial lines. So we all know the last 18 months major challenges with the global supply chain component shortages, we've seen a huge increase in the cost of raw materials, limited labor, but you guys actually started to tackle this challenge before the pandemic happened. So talk to me about the catalyst that PepsiCo, what you saw to modernize field service and supply chain application. >> Yeah, so we have a pretty old system that our field force, our frontline users are using. So we have a world-class supply chain system where we go into the stores and place orders and deliver products throughout the U.S. And then we penetrate, I think, more than 95% of the households with our products. So we need to have a robust supply chain as well as a good frontline sales application, to be able to manage the orders, and be able to deliver the products, right? So the system that we have is almost 20 year old system running on a very outdated technology. We've been trying to replace that for a while now. And finally, we started this early last year to completely replace the solution with a brand new IPhone based app. And then that gives our frontline the ability to go place orders, do deliveries to retail execution in the store like check-in check-out, bill displays. There are so much functionality that our RSRs or frontline users do in the stores and this app enables them to do much more efficiently. >> And we're going to break into that, but you mentioned you had a 20 year old technology. Talk to me about some of the challenges that that likely presented to those frontline workers. >> Yeah. I mean, there are multiple challenges for one, we cannot enable new business models. So business wants to come up with new ideas for, to be able to implement in the field, but with our system being so old, it's so hard to implement anything on that one. And then even the physical device is not scaling. We had a lot of memory issues, so it's time for it to kind of retire, but also the technology we use the 3G technology is retiring pretty soon at the next year. So we were definitely need to move to a new solution. And this is one of the must things we have to do right away. So that's where we started the project and we are in pilot phase right now. >> What would have been some of those negative consequences, had you not undertaken the effort? I imagine from a competitive perspective, knowing how much competition is out there, what would some of those challenges have been if this had persisted? >> Yeah, so one is the stability of the application, right? So the frontline users have to spend more time because the app is not stable, the current one. So that reduces the efficiency of our Salesforce. Right? And then on the other hand, we also not able to put new features or new business models enable new business models on top of the existing ones. So we are losing out on some of them because of our outdated system. So that's one thing we want to solve with the new one. >> So this is really critical to really evolve PepsiCo's business at, at its baseline, right? >> That's true. Yeah. It is very critical application that we are building and this will enable us to do a lot more things in future. And we can come up with new ideas, including like virtual reality or connecting to multiple systems. There are so many new ideas that we want to enable once we have this in place. >> Awesome. Talk to me about why Couchbase and then tell us more about, you started to talk a little bit about the solution, but let's go ahead and dig in and unpack the actual solution that you implemented. >> Yeah. So this is, eh, we call it an ERP and a mobile device because it has so much functionality as a company Frito-Lay, we have been over a hundred years in this business, right? We have so many optimized process that we have that kind of led to some digility in the system because we want to do in a particular way, because that's the best way to do it as part of our business process. So what we're trying to do here is take that business process and also provide an app that will enhance it and then connect to more, more systems. So that's what we are trying to do here. And then on top of that one, we will replace all the existing peripherals that we use with the new technology, like Bluetooth and all so that, they are much more faster and they slot more productive for our frontline force. >> Sounds like a lot of sales folks are going to to be a lot more productive. Talk to me about where Couchbase is as an integral component to this new system. >> Yeah. So one of the key requirements for this app is offline mode. What that means is one of our other salesforce who go from our system from our DC to other stores, should be able to run the whole day without any major disruption, even if they're not connected, let's say because when they go into big stores, typically there's no connection there all metal boxes. So the cellular reception is not there, but most of our work that we do from our frontline is within the store. So it has to be a full offline where we have to have all the data within the device and we should be able to place orders, create inventory that records or adjust inventory, and then create invoices. All the majority of the things that we do are in the store and they should be able to do without the connection. So that's where we explored multiple options and kind of zeroed in on Couchbase where we bring all the data into Couchbase database on the device and then sync it when there is connection, but there's no connection, we still have all the data on the device and we can go do all of our duties in the stores without any issues, even if it is not connected. >> So the sales folks can be in the stores with their mobile device, doing all the transactions that they need to do with the stores, regardless of if there's connectivity. Talk to me about what happens when they get back to connectivity in that and the Couchbase database sync. >> Yeah. And the other big thing we want is instant connect. I mean, when there's connectivity, we want instant sync with the backend, right? If there's new data that comes, we need that in the device. At the same time, if I place an order, I want to send it back immediately to our backend systems so that our fulfillment starts for those. So that's very critical when we have a lot of cutoff times for our orders. So we need order as soon as we've placed to be going into the backend systems. So what happens when it gets connected, as soon as the sales folks come out of the store or when, within the story they could connectivity the Couchbased technology that we are using using the sync gateway immediately syncs the data back and forth if there's any new data that's available. So that is key for us in this particular app. >> So our transactions happening in real time or near real time. >> Yeah. So the data flow happens in real time when there's connectivity, but when it is not connected still, it doesn't have any issue with the actual transactions with the RSR that can go complete anything that. >> Got it. Okay. So there's no impediment there. In fact, it's a productivity enhancer. It sounds like for all of those sales folks out on the frontline. Tell us so millions of documents go through the system, tens of billions of dollars. Talk to me about the volume of data and the actual monetary value that's traversing the system. >> Yeah. It's huge, again, this is kind of the lifeline of the company. The sales are always the life of any company, right? So most of the sales for Frito-Lay goes through our system and we're talking anywhere between hundreds of thousands of documents that flow through back and forth between the Couch between the device and the server. So there's a lot of master data that comes like products price from customers, all that information that comes from the backend to the device and all the orders inventory and everything that gets created on the device gets flown sync back to the server. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very complex system. And also from the volume perspective, it's huge. So we had to build a massive infrastructure on the backend to be able to handle all this. One of the key feature is again, we have this massive data that we need to sync to the devices, but each device should only get the portion of the data that they want because a particular Salesforce only goes to a small set of 20 stores, let's say. So the data that we sync to that device is only for those 20 stores. So that's the key here. So Couchbase allows us to do that. The Couchbase sync, where we can subset the data into different portions and only send the data that is relevant for a particular device. >> So then from a, from a latency perspective, it must be pretty low latency, pretty fast to be able to get this data back to the device and to the sales person that is in the middle of a transaction. >> Yes. I mean, it's pretty, the sink is very fast. The Couchbase sync, especially user's web sockets. And we do continuous replicators where if I complete an order, the next instant it's on the server. So it's, it's we observed the speeds improved a lot. So the technology that we are using uses syncs for a long, long time compared to Couchbase, and that's another productivity gain for our Salesforce. >> What were some of the differentials? You mentioned some of the technology requirements that PepsiCo had in rearchitecting, the infrastructure, but what were some of the key technology differentiators that really made Couchbase stand out as the obvious choice? >> Yeah, so we, when we started this project, we all know the sink is the key for this whole project, because we thought the data going back and forth, we cannot really build a robust offline app. So we looked at multiple options, other providers that are doing the sync. And we also looked at building our own sink, in-house using APIs, but then we did lots of performance testing across all the options that we had at that time. And then Couchbase came above all of them pretty handily. So obviously we can coach base takes care of the sync, and then we can focus on our business process. So we can go build all the business process and not worry about how to build the syncing engine. And then that is itself a big effort. So that's what Couchbase provided us saying a instant sync engine. And then we were able to focus more on our, the app applicants, the frontline application, the sensor application. >> And those business processes. Let's talk about some of the business outcomes. We've mentioned a few already in our conversation, increased in productivity, the sales forces increased in that as well. But I imagine there's a lot of benefits for the end-user customer in terms of being able to get the transactions completed faster. What are some of those positive business outcomes that PepsiCo is seeing as a result of implementing Couchbase? >> Yeah. So you hit on a couple of them that the sync times are definitely a big factor where that will directly give more time for the sales folks to go either go to most stores, or even if they go to the existing stores, they can do more, spend more time with the customer merchandising and making sure everything is correct. So that's one, also the new app users connect with a lot of new peripherals that are not available on the previous platform. Also, the, our folks are very enthusiastic about using a new app, right? So it's like coming into the 21st century for them using such an old lab for a long time. So a lot of things that they see, they can see the images of the bags while ordering, which was not a feature earlier. Some of them are small, but they make a huge impact on our users. So, yeah, I mean, and then this is just a start that we are doing. And then once we are able to completely implement this one, we have a lot more going into, in future. I was just talking about, we can do virtual reality or show them how to sell using virtual reality. We can show a display to a store manager saying, 'Hey, I want to put a display here. And this is how it looks,' they can show it on the phone directly, than just explaining and showing some paper images. So there's a lot of possibilities. >> A lot of improvements to the customer experience. It sounds like, it sounds like adoption is quite high for your folks who are used to 20 year old technology, probably being very excited that they have a modern app. But talk to me a little bit about the appetite of the organization to continue modernizing the application infrastructure and presuming going from older technology to that 21st century, like you talked about. >> Yeah. So in other parts, we are already modernized some of these. So we have been on the journey for the last four, five years building multiple digital platforms. So one of the examples I can give is when COVID hit, there's a lot of disruption for everybody, for the consumers, so they are not able to find the products in the stores, a lot people are afraid to go to the stores to even buy products. So we reacted very quickly and opened a consumer website called snacks.com, which Pepsi never sold it to consumer directly. We always go through our stores, but the first time we open the consumer channel and Couchbase powered some of it for the backend purpose. So this is not a mobile app, it's just a desktop app, but we already have been on the digital transmission journey, even before we quickly turn into COVID for the snacks.com. And similarly, we are, doing this for our retail execution, portion of it using this project. So, and then we'll be continuing to do this going forward to enable a lot of functionality for I mean, for all of our sales, as well as supply chain and other systems, so that we can be more efficient. We can be more elastic saying if there is more demand, our backend should be able to handle all that, which was not the case before. So now we've built a state of the art backend system on cloud. So there's a lot of transmission, digital transmission going on within PepsiCo. And I'm really proud to be part of this project so that we took this to the next level. And then this is just a start. We can do a lot more. >> Right? This is just the beginning. That sounds like a great transformation for a historied company that we all, everybody knows PepsiCo and all of its products. But it sounds like when the pandemic hit, you had the infrastructure in place to be able to pivot quickly to launch that direct to consumer, which of course consumers, patience has been quite thin in the last year and a half. Talk to me a little bit about the impact to the overall organization as a result of being able to, to get more direct with those consumers. >> Yeah. So till now, again, we are the business model is we sell to the stores and then go customer. So we'd never get a direct sense of what consumer liking is. I mean, we get through some surveys and stuff, but we don't have a direct channel to the consumer, which this particular project enabled us snacks.com. So we know the consumer behavior, how they buying patterns, browsing patterns, which ones they like and including with geography and all so we learned a lot from the consumer behavior point of view for the project. And then we kept on enhancing. So one new thing we introduced was called Multipack where the consumers can come and pick, make their own Multipacks basically. They can say, okay, I need these many of this particular product, this particular product and make their Multipack and we ship them the customized Multipack. And it was, such a huge hit that we are not able to even fulfill them so much demand was there for that one, so we had to revamp and then get back. And now it's a huge thing on all the snacks.com platform. So all of this is possible because we had a digital platform underneath that supports this kind of innovation. So the new business models are just coming to life in within weeks or even few months and that's what we will be trying to do with the new platform that we're building for this app as well, where we'll bring in lot of new business models on top of we have already. >> Excellent, a lot of transformation it sounds like at PepsiCo in the last couple of years, I love the customization, that personalization route that you're going and I think that's going to be a huge hit for consumers. And as you said, there's a lot of demand , Madhav thank you for joining me today, talking about how you are modernizing the field service and supply chain application, the impact it's making for end users for your customers and for the sales folks. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much Lisa. >> From McCalla. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this Cube conversation.

>>Well, hi everybody, John Walls here, continuing our coverage on the cube of splunk.com 21. And then we talked a lot about data these days of companies and enterprise all the way down to small business and the importance of day to day to security data protection. But the public sector also has those very same concerns and some unique worries as well. And with me to talk about the public sector and its data transformation, and of course what's going on in that space is Jeremy Reesey, who was the group vice president of the public sector at Splunk. Jeremy. Good to see you today. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. >>Thanks for making time for me, John. You bet. >>Glad to have you. Well, let's, let's just, if first off, let's just paint the picture for those watching who are kind of focused on the private sector a little bit, just share with some general thoughts about the public sector and what's going on in terms of its digital transformation and what kind of concerns or, um, I guess, challenges you think there are broadly speaking first in the public sector around. >>Thanks, John. There's quite a bit of transformation going on right now in our government. And just like in industry, we've seen the pandemic as a catalyst for a lot of that transformation. Uh, you may have seen that Splunk recently released a report on the state of data innovation. And what we found is that, um, a lot of good things are happening, but the government still has a lot of work to do. And so there were pockets of excellence that we saw in the last 18 months where agencies really responded to things like the requirement for vaccinations and the requirement for monitoring, uh, health status in general. Uh, and we saw tremendous, um, speed in rolling out things like tele-health across, uh, the veterans affairs administration. But, uh, we also saw in our report that there were many agencies that haven't yet been able to modernize in the way that they want. And one of the inhibitors to that, frankly, John is their ability to adopt software as a service. And so we've seen a lot of things happening in the last year that, um, moved agency customers towards software as a service, but there's work yet. >>So, and why is that? So when you're talking about SAS, is it, is it, um, bureaucratic, uh, red tape as a regulatory issues? Or is it just about, uh, this is a large, huge institution that makes independent decisions, you know, HHS might make decisions separate from state separate from deity, uh, and then it's fragmented. I mean, what are those challenges? >>Sure. Well, I think there are two sides of a John. I think that our government is inherently designed to move cautiously and to move in such a way that we don't make mistakes. Uh, you use the word re bureaucratic. I'm not a huge fan of that word, but I understand the sentiment. Uh, I think that there are layers to any decision that any part of the government makes and certainly that support of, um, inhibiting speed. But I think the other part of it is our acquisition rules and regulations. And I think we've seen a number of positive changes made, uh, not only in the last administration, but even in this current administration that are helping our government agencies to take advantage of software as a service. Um, but there's still work to do there as well. Uh, we've seen the rise of things like, uh, other transactional authorities, OTAs. Uh, we've seen the establishment of an agile procurement office inside the general services administration, GSA, uh, but uh, other parts have heritage systems, systems that are working really well. And you don't want to change something that's not broken just for the sake of changing it. You want to change it in such a way, uh, that you really do transform and deliver new capabilities. >>Yeah. And I guess, um, you know, it's a matter of obviously of developing an expertise and, and maybe confidence too, right? Because this is, this is a new world, a new tech world, if you will here in the 21st century. And, um, and maybe I misused the word bureaucratic. Um, and I know you said you don't like it, but, but there's a certain kind of institutional energy or whatever you want to call it that kind of prohibits fast changes and, and is cautious and is conservative because, I mean, these are big dollar decisions and they're important decisions to based on security. So, I mean, how do you wrap your arms around that from a Splunk perspective to deal with the government, you know, at large, uh, when they have those kinds of, um, uh, I guess considerations >>Certainly, well, the beauty of where we find ourselves today is that data is incredibly powerful and there's more data available to our agency customers or to any company than ever before. So Splunk is inherently a data platform. We allow our customers be the agency customers, or be the industry customers to ask questions of data that they collect from any source, be it a structured data or unstructured data using Splunk, a customer can say, what's happening. Why is it happening? Where is it happening? And that's incredibly powerful. And I think, um, in this current age where, uh, the pandemic is forcing us to rethink how we deliver services and citizen services specifically, uh, having a data platform is incredibly powerful because the way that we're answering questions today is different than the way we answered questions last year. And it may be very different the way we have to ask questions a year from now. Uh, and that's really what Splunk's is delivering to our customers is that flexibility to be able to ask any question of any data set, uh, and to ask those questions in the context of today, not just the context that they knew yesterday. >>Yeah. W w and you mentioned the pandemic, what has that impact then? Um, obviously the need of, uh, I think about, you know, vaccination of disease, monitoring of outbreak monitoring, uh, emergency care, ICU units, all these things, um, critically important to the government's role right now, um, and continue to be, so what kind of impact has the, the pandemic had in terms of their modernization plans? Um, I'm guessing some of these had to be put on hold, right? Because you've, you've got, uh, you've got an emergency and so you can't conduct business as usual. >>Sure. So it's caused a shift in priorities as you know, John, and then it's also caused us to rethink what has to be done in person and what can be done remotely. And when we think about what can be done remotely, we're seeing a proliferation of devices. Um, we're seeing a proliferation of, uh, the, the level of network access, uh, that is enabled and supported. And with that, we see new security concerns, right? We are seeing, uh, uh, really, uh, an intriguing rise of thought around authentication and making sure that the right person is coming in from the right device, uh, using the right applications at the right time, that is incredibly challenging for our agency customers. Uh, and they have to think about what's happening in, in ways that they didn't have to last year. >>Let's talk about certification a little bit, and I know you announced a FedRAMP a couple of years ago, and now you've come out with a new iteration, if you will. Um, I hear about that. So walk me through that a little bit in our audience as well. And then just talk about the value of certification. Why does that really matter? What's the importance of that? >>Thanks, John. We did recently announced that we've received a provisional authority to operate, uh, in aisle five impact level five. And that's incredibly exciting. I've, I've never worked for a software company that had FedRAMP certification previously. And I think it demonstrates Splunk's commitment to this market, the public sector market. Uh, we are absolutely, um, committed to delivering our software in any environment at any level of classification that our customers need, and that allows them to rest assured that they can decide anything they want to about their data without worrying about the sanctity of that data itself, or the platform that they're using to process that data. That's incredibly exciting. I hope, >>Yeah. You mentioned, uh, the current administration just a little bit ago, you know, the Biden administration, um, no executive orders, you know, focusing in on, on, um, use of, of, uh, or I guess taking appropriate measures, right. To protect your data cyber from a cyber security perspective. Um, what exactly has that done to change the approach the government is taking now, uh, to protecting data and then how have you adapted to that executive order to provide the right services for governments looking to, to make sure they meet those standards and that criteria? >>Well, it's an exciting time as you, as you point out on May 12th, president Biden's son and executive order on improving the nation's cybersecurity. So, uh, from the highest levels, we're seeing the government sort of set a baseline for what makes sense. And they went further in a memo just released on August 27th, uh, by releasing what they call an enterprise logging maturity model. And it has four levels. And it, it indicates what sorts of data agencies should be storing from, and in their systems and for how long they should be storing it. And that's incredibly exciting because a lot of agencies are using Splunk, uh, to make sense of that data. And so this gives them sort of a baseline for what data do they need to collect? How long do they need to keep it collected for what questions do they need to ask of it? And as a result, um, we're making some offers to our customers about how they use Splunk, uh, how they take advantage of our cloud-based storage within our product, um, how they take advantage of our services in mapping their data strategy to this enterprise logging maturity model. And it represents a great opportunity to sort of take a step forward in cybersecurity for these agency customers. >>Yeah. I'm kind of curious here. I mean, I, I came from the wireless space and we had an active dialogue with the government in terms of, uh, communications, emergency communications, um, and, um, and also in, in services, the rural areas, that kind of thing. But sometimes that collaboration didn't go as smoothly as we would've liked, frankly. And, and so maybe lessons have been learned from that in terms of how the private sector melds with the public sector and works with the policy makers, you know, in that respect, what, how would you characterize just overall the relationship, you know, the public private sector relationship in terms of, you know, the sharing of resources and of information and collaboration? >>Well at the federal government level, uh, there's always been pretty incredible collaboration between industry and government, but I think, um, we at Splunk have been engaged through organizations like the Alliance for digital innovation, uh, the us chamber of commerce, um, act by act the American council for technology and the industry advisory council. And we're seeing a rise actually in university partnerships as well, particularly at the state level where, uh, let's say local governments are saying, Hey, we don't have the capacity to do some of these things that we now know we need to do. And we know that, uh, some of those things could be done in collaboration with our university partners and with our state partners. Um, and that's exciting. I think that it is an era where everyone realizes there are new threats. Uh, there are threats that are, um, hard to handle in a silo and that the more we collaborate, whether it's government industry collaboration, or whether it's cross government collaboration, or whether it's cross industry collaboration, the better, and the more effectively, uh, we'll solve some of these problems that face us as a nation. >>What do you make a great point too? Because, uh, it is about pulling resources at some point, and everybody pulling together, uh, in order to combat what has become a certainly vaccine, uh, challenge to say the least Jeremy, thanks for the time. Uh, I appreciate it. And, uh, wish you all the success down the road. >>Thanks for having me, John, you >>Bet Jeremy Risa joining us, talking about the public sector and sparks just exemplary work in that respect. You're watching the cube. Our coverage continues here of.com for 21.

>>I've got Mada Mykola here with me, commerce architect at PepsiCo Mada. Welcome to the program, >>Lisa. >>So we're going to be talking about the solution that you implemented, um, that helped with the global supply chain. So let's talk though, first about your role commerce architect. Help me understand that a little bit better. >>So Frito, uh, PepsiCo is pretty big. It's a conglomerate of multiple product lines. So I worked for Frito-Lay, which is basically all the salty snacks. And then we have, uh, the Quaker products as well in our portfolio. So I oversee all the architecture for all the commercial IOT solutions, uh, in the CFNA portfolio. >>Got it all the commercial lines. So we all know the last 18 months major challenges with the global supply chain component shortages. We've seen a huge increase in the cost of raw materials, um, limited labor, but you guys actually started to tackle this challenge before the pandemic happened. So talk to me about the catalyst that PepsiCo, what you saw to modernize field service and supply chain application. >>Yeah, so we have a pretty old system that our field force, our frontline users are using. So we have a world-class supply chain system where we go into the stores and place orders and deliver products, the us, and then we penetrate, I think, more than 95% of the households with our products. So we need to have a robust supply chain as well as a good frontline sales application, to be able to manage the orders and be able to deliver the products. Right? So the system that we have is almost 20 year old system running on a video data technology. There've been trying to replace that for a while now. And finally, we started this, uh, early last year to completely replace the solution with a brand new iPhone based app. Uh, and then that gives our frontline the ability to go place orders, do deliveries to retail execution in the store, like checking checkout, build displays. There are so much functionality that our RSRs or Franklin users do in the stores and this app enables them to do much more efficient. >>And we're going to break into that, but you mentioned you had a 20 year old technology. Talk to me about some of the challenges that that likely presented to those frontline workers. >>Yeah. I mean, there are multiple challenges for one, we cannot enable new business models. So business wants to come up with new ideas for, um, to be able to implement in the field, but with our system being so old, it's so hard to implement anything on that one. And then even the physical device is not scaling. We had a lot of memory issues, so it's time for it to kind of retire. And also the technology we use the 3g technologies retiring pretty soon at the next year. So we were definitely need to move to a new solution. And this is one of the most things we have to do, but right away. So that's where we started the project and we are in pilot phase right now. >>What would have been some of those negative consequences? Had you not undertaken the effort? I imagine from a competitive perspective, knowing how much competition is out there, what would some of those challenges have been if this had persisted? >>Yeah. So one is the stability of the application, right? So, uh, the frontline users have to spend more time because the app is not stable, the current one. So that reduces the efficiency of our Salesforce. Right? And then on the other hand, we also not able to put new features or new business models enable new business models on top of the existing ones. So we are losing out on some of them because of our outdated system. So that's one thing we want to solve with the new one. >>So this is really critical to really evolve PepsiCo's business at, at its baseline. Right? >>That's true. Yeah. It is very critical application that we're building and this will enable us to do a lot more things in future. And we can come up with new ideas, including like virtual reality or connecting to multiple systems. There are so many new ideas that we want to enable once we have this in place. >>Awesome. Talk to me about why Couchbase, and then tell us more about, you started to talk a little bit about the solution, but let's go ahead and dig in and unpack the actual solution that you implemented. >>Yeah. So this is, eh, we call it an ERP and a mobile device because it has so much functionality as a company three. Totally. We have been, uh, over a hundred years, uh, in this business, right. We have so many, uh, optimized process, uh, that we have that kind of led to some digital in the system because we want to do in a particular way, because that's the best way to do it as part of our business process. So what we're trying to do here is take that business process and also provide an app that will enhance it and then connect to more, more systems. So that's what we're trying to do here. And then on top of that one, we will replace all the existing peripherals that we use with the new technology, like Bluetooth and also, so that, uh, the, they are much more faster, and it's a lot more productive for our frontline force. >>Sounds like a lot of sales folks are going to be a lot more productive. Talk to me about where Couchbase is as an integral component to this new system. >>Yeah. So one of the key requirements for this app is an offline mode. What that means is, uh, one of our Salesforce who go from our system, uh, from our DC to all the stores, should be able to run the whole day without any, uh, major disruption, even if they're not connected, let's say because when they go into big stores, typically there's no connection. There are metal boxes. So the cellular reception is not there, but most of our work that we do from our frontline is within the store. So it has to be a full offline where we have to have all the data within the device, and we should be able to place artists create inventory that records or adjust inventory, and then create invoices. All the majority of the things that we do are in the store and they should be able to do without, um, the kind of connection. So that's where we explored multiple options and kind of zeroed in on Couchbase where we bring all the data into Couchbase based database on the device, and then sync it when there is connection, but there's no connection. We still have all the data on the device and we can go do all of our duties in the stores without any issues, even if it is not connected. >>So the sales folks can be in the stores with their mobile device, doing all the transactions that they need to do with the stores, regardless of if there's connectivity. Talk to me about what happens when they get back to connectivity in that and the Couchbase database sync. >>Yeah. And, uh, the other big thing we want is instant connect. I mean, when there's connectivity, we want instant sync with the backend, right? If there's new data that comes, we'll need that in the device at the same time, if I place an order, I want to send it back immediately to our backend systems for that our fulfillment stacks for those. So that's very critical when we have a lot of cutoff times for our artists. So we need artists as soon as we've placed to be going to the backend systems. So what happens when it gets connected, as soon as the sales folks come out of the store, or when within the store, they got connectivity, these codebase technology that we are using using the sync gateway immediately syncs the data back and forth. Uh, if there is any new data that's available. So that is key for us in this particular app. >>So our transactions happening in, in real time or near real time. >>Yeah. So the data flow happens in real time when this kind of gritty, but when it is not connected still, it doesn't have any issue with the actual transactions with the artists that can go complete anything that they would >>Got it. Okay. So there's no impediment there. In fact, it's a productivity enhancer. It sounds like for all of those sales folks out on the frontline TA. So, so millions of documents go through the system, tens of billions of dollars. Talk to me about the volume of data and the actual monetary value. That's traversing the system. >>Yeah. It's huge. Again, this is kind of weak. It's the lifeline of the company. The seals are always the life of any company, right? So most of the goes through our system. And, um, we're talking anywhere between hundreds of thousands of dollars that flow through back and forth, uh, between, uh, between the device and the server. So there's a lot of master data that comes like products place from customers, all that information that comes from the backend to the device and all the orders, inventory, and everything that gets created on the device gets flown back to the subtler. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very complex system. And also from the volume perspective, it's huge. So we had to build a massive infrastructure on the backend to be able to handle all this. One of the key feature is again, we have this massive data that we need to sync to the devices, but each device should only get the portion of the data that they want because a particular Salesforce only goes to a small set of 20 stores, let's say. So the data that we seem to that device is only for those 20 stores. So that's the key here. So Couchbase allows us to do that. The codebase sync, where we can subset the data into different portions and only send the data that is relevant for a particular device. >>So then from a, from a latency perspective, it must be pretty low latency, pretty fast to be able to get this data back to the device and to the sales person that is in the middle of a transaction. >>Yes. Uh, I mean, it's pretty, the sink is very fast. The Cosby's sink, especially user's web sockets. And we do continuous replicators where if I complete an order, the next instant it's on the stairwell. So it's, it's we observed the speeds improve a lot. So the technology that we are using users are things for a long, long time compared to code based. And that's another productivity gain for our Salesforce. >>What were some of the differentials? You mentioned some of the technology requirements that PepsiCo had in rearchitecting, the infrastructure, but what were some of the key technology differentiators that really made Couchbase stand out as the obvious choice? >>Yeah, so we, when we started this project, we all know the sink is the key for this whole project, because we thought that data going back and forth, we cannot really build a robust, um, uh, offline app. So we looked at multiple, uh, options, other providers that are doing the sink. And we also looked at building our own sink. Uh, in-house using API APIs, but then we did lots of, uh, performance testing across all the, uh, options that we had at that time. And then Ottawa cost base came above. All of them are pretty handle it. So obviously we can coach base takes care of the sink, and then we can focus on our business process. So we can go build all the business process and not worry about how we build a single. And then that is itself a big effort. So that's what caught me is prior to seeing instant sync engine. And then we were able to focus more on our, uh, the app application, the frontline application, the sales application, >>And those business processes. Let's talk about some of the business outcomes. We've mentioned a few already in our conversation, increased in productivity. The sales forces increased in that as well, but I imagine there's a lot of benefits for the end-user customer in terms of being able to get the transactions completed faster. What are some of those positive business outcomes that PepsiCo is seeing as a result of implementing Couchbase? >>Yeah. So you hit on a couple of them when the sink times are definitely a big factor with that will directly give more time for the sales folks to go either go to most stores or even they go to the existing stores, they can do more, spend more time with the customer merchandising and making sure everything is correct. So that's one also the new app users, uh, connect with a lot of new peripherals that are not available on the previous platform. Um, also the, uh, our folks are very, uh, enthusiastic about using a new app, right? So it's like coming into the 21st century for them using such an old lab for a long time. So a lot of things that they see, they can see the images of the bags while ordering, which was not a feature earlier. Some of them are small, but they make a huge impact on our users. >>Um, so yeah, I mean, and then this is just a start that we are doing. And then once we are able to completely implement this one, we have a lot more going into, in future. I was just talking about, we can do virtual reality or show them how to sell using what filter do. We can show a display to a store manager saying, Hey, I want to put a display here. And this is how it looks. They can show it on the phone that Dan just explaining and showing some paper images. So there's a lot of possibilities, >>A lot of improvements to the customer experience. It sounds like, it sounds like adoption is quite high for your folks who are used to 20 year old technology, probably being very, uh, excited that they have a modern app. But talk to me a little bit about the appetite of the organization to continue modernizing the application infrastructure and presuming going from older technology to that 21st century, like you talked about. >>Yeah. So in other parts, we are already modernized some of these. So we have been on the journey for the last four or five years building multiple digital platforms. So one of the example I can give is when COVID hit, there's a lot of disruption for everybody, for the consumers. So they are not able to find the products in the stores, but people are afraid to go to the stores to even buy products. So we reacted very quickly and opened a consumer of a website called snacks or calm, which Pepsi never sold it to the directly. We always go through our stores, but the first time we open the consumer channel and base powered some of it for the backend purpose. So this is not a mobile app, it's just a desktop app, but we already have been on the district has mission journey even before we quickly turned into COVID for the snacks.com. >>And similarly, we are, you are doing this for our retail execution portion of it, um, using this product. So, and then we'll be continuing to do this going forward, or to enable a lot of functionality for, uh, I mean, for all of our sales, as well as, uh, supply chain and other systems, so that we can be more efficient. We can be more elastic saying if there is more demand, our backend should be able to handle all that, uh, which was not the case before extra. Now we built a state of the art backend system on cloud. So there's a lot of transmission, digital transmission going on within PepsiCo. And I'm really proud to be part of this project so that we took this to the next level. And then this is just a start. We can do a lot more, >>Right? This is just the beginning. That sounds like a great transformation for a history company that we all, everybody knows PepsiCo and all of its products. But it sounds like when the pandemic hit, you had the infrastructure in place to be able to pivot quickly to launch that direct to consumer, which of course consumers, patients has been quite thin in the last year and a half. Talk to me a little bit about the impact to the overall organization as a result of being able to, to get more direct with those consumers. >>Yeah. So till now, again, we are, the business model is we sell to the stores and then go to the customer. So we'd never get a direct, uh, sense of what consumer, uh, liking is. I mean, we get through some surveys and stuff, but we don't have a direct channel with the consumer, which this particular product enabled us next.com. So we know the consumer behavior, how they, um, buying patterns, browsing patterns, which ones they like and including with geography. And also we learned a lot from a consumer behavior point of view for the project. And then we kept on enhancing. So one new thing we introduced was called multipack where the consumers can come and make their own market practices. They can say, okay, I need this many of this particular product, this product per I can make that multipack. And we ship them the customized market back. >>And it was such a huge hit that we are not able to even fulfill them so much demand was there for that one. So we had to revamp and then get back. And now it's a huge thing on our snacks that complex. So all of this is possible because we had a digital platform underneath that supports this kind of innovation. So the new business models are just coming to life in within weeks or even few months. And that's what we will be trying to do with the new platform that could billing for this app as well, where we'll bring in a lot of new business models. We have >>Excellent, a lot of, uh, transformation. It sounds like at PepsiCo in the last couple of years, I'd love the customization, that personalization route that you're going. I think that's going to be a huge hit for consumers. And as you said, there's a lot of demand letter. Thank you for joining me today, talking about how you are modernizing the field service and supply chain application, the impact it's making for end users for your customers and for the sales folks. We appreciate your time. >>Thank you so much >>From out of McCullough. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation.