>>Machine intelligence is everywhere. AI is being embedded into our everyday lives, through applications, process automation, social media, ad tech, and it's permeating virtually every industry and touching everyone. Now, a major issue with machine learning and deep learning is trust in the outcome. That is the black box problem. What is that? Well, the black box issue arises when we can see the input and the output of the data, but we don't know what happens in the middle. Take a simple example of a picture of a cat or a hotdog for you. Silicon valley fans, the machine analyzes the picture and determines it's a cat, but we really don't know exactly how the machine determined that. Why is it a problem? Well, if it's a cat on social media, maybe it isn't so onerous, but what if it's a medical diagnosis facilitated by a machine? And what if that diagnosis is wrong? >>Or what if the machine is using deep learning to qualify an individual for a home loan and that person applying for the loan gets rejected. Was that decision based on bias? If the technology to produce that result is opaque. Well, you get the point. There are serious implications of not understanding how decisions are made with AI. So we're going to dig into the issue and the topic of how to make AI explainable and operationalize AI. And with me are two guests today, Shea speaky, who's the co-founder and COO of cognitive scale and long time friend of the cube and newly minted CEO of cognitive scale. Bob pitchy, Yano, gents. Welcome to the cube, Bob. Good to see you again. Welcome back on. >>Thanks for having us >>Say, let me start with you. Why did you start the company? I think you started the company in 2013. Give us a little history and the why behind cognitive scale. >>Sure. David. So, um, look, I spent some time, um, you know, through multiple startups, but I ended up at IBM, which is where I met Bob. And one of the things that we did was the commercialization of IBM Watson initially. And that led to, uh, uh, thinking about how do you operationalize this because of the, a lot of people thinking about data science and machine learning in isolation, building models, you know, trying to come up with better ways to deliver some kind of a prediction, but if you truly want to operationalize it, you need to think about scale that enterprises need. So, you know, we were in the early days, enamored by ways, I'm still in landed by ways. The application that takes me from point a to point B and our view is look as you go from point a to point B, but if you happen to be, um, let's say a patient or a financial services customer, imagine if you could have a raise like application giving you all the insights that you needed telling you at the right moment, you know, what was needed, the right explanation so that it could guide you through the journey. >>So that was really the sort of the thesis behind cognitive scale is how do you apply AI, uh, to solve problems like that in regulated industries like health care management services, but do it in a way that it's done at scale where you can get, bring the output of the data scientists, application developers, and then those insights that can be powered into those end applications like CRM systems, mobile applications, web applications, applications that consumers like us, whether it be in a healthcare setting or a financial services setting can get the benefit of those insights, but have the appropriate sort of evidence and transparency behind it. So that was the, that was the thesis for. >>Got it. Thank you for that. Now, Bob, I got to ask you, I knew you couldn't stay in the sidelines, my friend. So, uh, so what was it that you saw in the marketplace that Lord you back in to, to take on the CEO role? >>Yeah, so David is an exciting space and, uh, you're right. I couldn't stay on the sideline stuff. So look, I always felt that, uh, enterprise AI had a promise to keep. Um, and I don't think that many enterprises would say, you know, with their experience that yeah, we're getting the value that we wanted out of it. We're getting the scale that we wanted out of it. Um, and we're really satisfied with what it's delivered to us so far. So I felt there was a gap in keeping that promise and I saw cognitive scale as an important company and being able to fill that gap. And the reason that that gap exists is that, you know, enterprise AI, unlike AI, that relates to one particular conversational service or one particular small narrow domain application is really a team sport. You know, it involves all sorts of roles, um, and all sorts of aspects of a working enterprise. >>That's already scaled with systems of engagement, um, and, and systems of record. And we show up in the, with the ability to actually help put all of that together. It's a brown field, so to speak, not a Greenfield, um, and where Shea and Matt and Minosh and the team really focused was on what are the important last mile problems, uh, that an enterprise needs to address that aren't necessarily addressed with any one tool that might serve some members of that team? Because there are a lot of great tools out there in the space of AI or machine learning or deep learning, but they don't necessarily help come together to, to deliver the outcomes that an enterprise wants. So what are those important aspects? And then also, where do we apply AI inside of our platform and our capabilities to kind of take that operationalization to the next level, uh, with, you know, very specific insights and to take that journey and make it highly personalized while also making it more transparent and explainable. >>So what's the ICP, the ideal customer profile, is it, is it highly regulated industries? Is it, is it developers? Uh, maybe you could parse that a little bit. >>Yeah. So we do focus in healthcare and in financial services. And part of the reason for that is the problem is very difficult for them. You know, you're, you're working in a space where, you know, you have rules and regulations about when and how you need to engage with that client. So the bar for trust is very, very high and everything that we do is around trusted AI, which means, you know, thinking about using the data platforms and the model platforms in a way to create marketplaces, where being able to utilize that data is something that's provisioned in permission before we go out and do that assembly so that the target customer really is somebody who's driving digital transformation in those regulated industries. It might be a chief digital officer. It might be a chief client officer, customer officer, somebody who's really trying to understand. I have a very fragmented view of my member or of my patient or my client. And I want to be able to utilize AI to help that client get better outcomes or to make sure that they're not lost in the system by understanding and more holistically understanding them in a more personalized way, but while always maintaining, you know, that that chain of trust >>Got it. So can we get into the product like a little bit more about what the product is and maybe share, you can give us a census to kind of where you started and the evolution of the portfolio >>Look where we started there is, um, the application of AI, right? So look, the product and the platform was all being developed, but our biggest sort of view from the start had been, how do you get into the trenches and apply this to solve problems? And as well, pointed out, one of the areas we picked was healthcare because it is a tough industry. There's a lot of data, but there's a lot of regulation. And it's truly where you need the notion of being able to explain your decision at a really granular level, because those decisions have some serious consequences. So, you know, he started building a platform out and, um, a core product is called cortex. It's the, it's a software platform on top of this. These applications are built, but to our engagements over the last six, seven years, working with customers in healthcare, in financial services, some of the largest banks, the largest healthcare organizations, we have developed a software product to essentially help you scale enterprise AI, but it starts with how do you build these systems? >>Building the systems requires us to provide tooling that can help developers take models, data that exists within the enterprise, bring it together, rapidly, assemble this, orchestrate these different components, stand up. These systems, deploy these systems again in a very complex environment that includes, you know, on-prem systems as well as on the cloud, and then be able to done on APIs that can plug into an application. So we had to essentially think of this entire problem end to end, and that's poor cortex does, but extremely important part of cortex that didn't start off. Initially. We certainly had all the, you know, the, the makings of a trusted AI would be founded the industry wasn't quite ready over time. We've developed capabilities around explainability being able to detect bias. So not only are you building these end to end systems, assembling them and deploying them, you have as a first-class citizen built into this product, the notion of being able to understand bias, being able to detect whether there's the appropriate level of explainability to make a decision and all of that's embedded within the cortex platform. So that's what the platform does. And it's now in its sixth generation as we >>Speak. Yeah. So Dave, if you think about the platform, it really has three primary components. One is this, uh, uh, application development or assembly platform that fits between existing AI tools and models and data and systems of engagement. And that allows for those AI developers to rapidly visualize and orchestrate those aspects. And in that regard were tremendous partners with people like IBM, Microsoft H2O people that provide aspects that are helping develop the data platform, the data fabric, things like the, uh, data science tools to be able to then feed this platform. And then on the front end, really helping transform those systems of engagement into things that are more personalized with better recommendations in a more targeted space with explainable decisions. So that's one element that's called cortex fabric. There's another component called cortex certify. And that capability is largely around the model intelligence model introspection. >>It works, uh, across things that are of cost model driven, but other things that are based on deterministic algorithms, as well as rule-based algorithms to provide that explainability of decisions that are made upstream before they get to the black box model, because organizations are discovering that many times the data has, you know, aspects of dimensions to it and, and, and biases to it before it gets to the model. So they want to understand that entire chain of, of, uh, of decisioning before it gets there. And then there's the notion of some pew, preacher rated applications and blueprints to rapidly deliver outcomes in some key repeating areas like customer experience or like lead generation. Um, those elements where almost every customer we engage with, who is thinking about digital transformation wants to start by providing better client experience. They want to reduce costs. They want to have operational savings while driving up things like NPS and improving the outcomes for the people they're serving. So we have those sets of applications that we built over time that imagine that being that first use application, that starter set, that also trains the customer on how to you utilize this operational platform. And then they're off to the races building out those next use cases. So what we see as one typical insertion place play that returns value, and then they're scaling rapidly. Now I want to cover some secret sauce inside of the platform. >>Yeah. So before you do, I think, I just want to clarify, so the cortex fabric, cause that's really where I wanted to go next, but the cortex fabric, it seems like that's the way in which you're helping people operationalize inject use familiar tooling. It sounds like, am I correct? That the cortex certify is where you're kind of peeling the onion of that complicated, whether it's deep learning or neural networks, which is that's where the black box exists. Maybe you could tell us, you know, is that where the secret sauce lives, if not, where is it? And if >>It actually is in all places right though. So there's some really important, uh, introductions of capabilities, because like I mentioned, many times these, uh, regulated industries have been developed and highly fragmented pillars. Just think about the insurance companies between property casualty and personal lines. Um, many times they have grown through acquisition. So they have these systems of record that are, that are really delivering the operational aspects of the company's products, but the customers are sometimes lost in the scenes. And so they've built master data management capabilities and data warehouse capabilities to try to serve that. But they find that when they then go to apply AI across some of those curated data environments, it's still not sufficient. So we developed an element of being able to rapidly assemble what we call a profile of one. It's a very, very intimate profile around declared data sources, uh, that relate to a key business entity. >>In most cases, it's a person, it's a member, it's a patient, it's a client, but it can be a product for some of our clients. It's real estate. Uh, it's a listing. Um, you know, it can be someone who's enjoying a theme park. It can be someone who's a shopper in a grocery store. Um, it can be a region. So it's any key business entity. And one of the places where we applied our AI knowledge is by being able to extract key information out of these declared systems and then start to make longitudinal observations about those systems and to learn about them. And then line those up with prediction engines that both we supply as well as third parties and the customers themselves supply them. So in this theme of operationalization, they're constantly coming up with new innovations or a new model that they might want to interject into that engagement application. Our platform with this profile of one allows them to align that model directly into that profile, get the benefits of what we've already done, but then also continue to enhance, differentiate and provide even greater, uh, greater value to that client. IBM is providing aspects of those models that we can plug in. And many of our clients are that's really >>Well. That's interesting. So that profile of one is kind of the instantiation of that secret sauce, but you mentioned like master data management data warehouse, and, you know, as well as I do Bob we've we've we've decades of failures trying to get a 360 degree view for example of the customer. Uh, it's just, just not real time. It's not as current as we would want it to be. The quality is not necessarily there. It's a very asynchronous process. Things have changed the processing power. You and I have talked about this a lot. We have much more data now. So it's that, that, that profile one. So, but also you mentioned curated apps, customer experience, and lead gen. You mentioned those two, uh, and you've also talked about digital transformation. So it sounds like you're supporting, and maybe this is not necessarily the case, but I'm curious as to what's going on here, maybe supporting more revenue generation in the early phases than say privacy or compliance, or is it actually, do you have use cases for both? >>It's all, it's all of it. Um, and, and shake and, you know, really talk passionately about some of the things we've helped clients do, like for instance, uh, J money. Why don't you talk about the, the hospital, um, uh, uh, you know, discharge processes. >>Absolutely. So, so, you know, just to make this a bit more real, they, you know, when you talk about a profile on one, it's about understanding of patient, as I said earlier, but it's trying to bring this notion of not just the things that you know about the patient you call that declared information. You can find the system in, you can find this information in traditional EMR systems, right? But imagine bringing in, uh, observed information, things that you observed an interaction with the patient, uh, and then bring in inferences that you can then start drawing on top of that. So to bring this to a live example, imagine at the point of care, knowing when all the conditions are right for the patient to be discharged after surgery. And oftentimes as you know, those, if all the different evidence of the different elements that don't come together, you can make some really serious mistakes in terms of patient discharge, bad things can happen. >>Patient could be readmitted or even worse. That could be a serious outcome. Now, how do you bring that information at the point of care for the person making a decision, but not just looking at the information, you know, but also understanding not just the clinical information, but the social, the socioeconomic information, and then making sure that that decision has the appropriate evidence behind it. So then when you do make that decision, you have the appropriate sort of, uh, you know, the guidance behind it for audit reasons, but also for ensuring that you don't have a bad outcome. So that's the example Bob's talking about, where we have a flight this in real settings, in, in healthcare, but also in financial services and other industries where you can make these decisions based on the machine, telling you with a lot of detail behind it, whether this is the right decision to be made, we call this explainability and the evidence that's needed. >>You know, that's interesting. I, I, I'm imagining a use case in my mind where after a patient leaves, so often there's just a complete disconnect with the patient, unless that patient has problems and goes back, but that patient might have some problems, but they forget it's too much of a pain in the neck to go back, but, but the system can now track this and we could get much more accurate information and that could help in future diagnoses and, and also decision-making for a patient in terms of, of outcomes and probability of success. Um, question, what do you actually sell? So it's a middleware product. It's a, how do I license it? >>It's a, it's a, uh, it's a software platform. So we sell software, um, and it is deployed in the customer's cloud environment of choice. Uh, of course we support complete hybrid cloud capabilities. Um, we support native cloud deployments on top of Microsoft and Amazon and Google. And we support IBM's hybrid cloud initiative with red hat OpenShift as well, which also puts us in a position to both support those public cloud environments, as well as the customer's private cloud environments. So constructed with Kubernetes in that environment, um, which helps the customer also re you know, realize the value of that operational appar operationalization, because they can modify those applications and then redeploy them directly into their cloud environment and start to see those as struck to see those spaces. Now, I want to cover a couple of the other components of the secret sauce, if I could date to make sure that you've got a couple other elements where some real breakthroughs are occurring, uh, in these spaces. >>Um, so Dave, you and I, you know, we're passionate about the semiconductor industry, uh, and you know, we know what is, you know, happening with regard to innovation and broadening the people who are now siliconized their intellectual property and a lot of that's happening because those companies who have been able to figure out how to manufacture or how to design those semiconductors are operationalizing those platforms with our customers. So you have people like apple who are able to really break out of the scene and do things by utilizing utilities and macros their own knowledge about how things need to work. And it's just, it's very similar to what we're talking about doing here for enterprise AI, they're operationalizing that construction, but none of those companies would actually start creating the actual devices until they go through simulation and design. Correct. Well, when you think about most enterprises and how they develop software, they just immediately start to develop the code and they're going through AB testing, but they're all writing code. >>They're developing those assets. They're creating many, many models. You know, some organizations say 90% of the models they create. They never use some say 50, and they think that's good. But when you think about that in terms of, you know, the capital that's being deployed, both on the resources, as well as the infrastructure, that's potentially a lot of waste as well. So one of the breakthroughs is, uh, the creation of what we call synthetic data and simulations inside of our, of our operational platform. So cortex fabric allows someone to actually say, look, this is my data pattern. And because it's sensitive data, it might be, you know, PII. Um, we can help them by saying, okay, what is the pattern of that data? And then we can create synthetic data off of that pattern for someone to experiment with how a model might function or how that might work in the application context. >>And then to run that through a set of simulations, if they want to bring a new model into an application and say, what will the outcomes of this model be before I deployed into production, we allow them to drive simulations across millions or billions of interactions to understand what is that model going to be effective. Was it going to make a difference for that individual or for this application or for the cost savings goal and outcomes that I'm trying to drive? So just think about what that means in terms of that digital transformation officers, having the great idea, being in the C-suite and saying, I want to do this with my business. Oftentimes they have to turn around to the CIO or the chief data officer and say, when can you get me that data? And we all know the answer to that question. They go like this, like the, yeah, I've got a couple other things on the plate and I'll get to that as soon as I can. >>Now we're able to liberate that. Now we're able to say, look, you know, what's the concept that you're trying to develop. Let's create the synthetic data off of that environment. We have a Corpus of data that we have collected through various client directions that many times gets that bootstrapped and then drive that through simulation. So we're able to drive from imagination of what could be the outcome to really getting high confidence that this initiative is going to have a meaningful value for the enterprise. And then that stimulates the right kind of following and the right kind of endorsement, uh, throughout really driving that change to the enterprise and that aspect of the simulations, the ability to plan out what that looks like and develop those synthetic aspects is another important element that the secret sauce inside of cortex fabric, >>Back to the semiconductor innovation, I can do that very cheaply. I think, I think I I'm thinking AWS cloud, I could experiment using graviton or maybe do a little bit of training with some, you know, new processors and, and then containerize it, bring it back to my on-premise state and apply it. Uh, and so, uh, just a as you say, a much more agile environment, um, yeah, >>Speed efficiency, um, and the ability to validate the hypothesis that, that started the process. >>Guys, think about the Tam, the total available market. Can we have that discussion? How big is that? >>I mean, if you think about the spend across, uh, the healthcare space and financial services, we're talking about hundreds of billions, uh, in that, in terms of what the enterprise AI opportunity, as in just those spaces. And remember financial services is a broad spectrum. So one of the things that we're actually starting to roll out today in fact, is a SAS service that we developed. That's based on top of our offerings called trust star trust star.ai, and trust star is a set of personalized insights that get delivered directly to the loan officer inside of, uh, an institution who's trying to, uh, really match, uh, lending to someone who wants to buy a property. Um, and when you think about many of those organizations, they have very, very high demand. They've got a lot of information, they've got a lot of regulation they need to adhere to. >>But many times they're very analytically challenged in terms of the tools they have to be able to serve those needs. So what's happening with new listings, what's happening with my competitors, what's happening. As people move from high tax states, where they want to potentially leave into new, more attractive toxin and opportunity-based environments where they're not known to those lending institutions that maybe, you know, they're, they're trying to be married up with. So we've developed a set of insights that are, is, this is a subscription service trust r.ai, um, which goes directly to the loan officer. And then we use our platform behind the scenes to use things like the home disclosure act, data, MLS data, other data that is typically Isagenix to those sources and providing very customized insights to help that buyer journey. And of course, along the way, we can identify things like are some of the decisions more difficult to explain, are there potential biases that might be involved in that environment as people are applying for mortgages, and we can really drive growth through inclusion for those lending institutions, because they might just not understand that potential client well enough, that we can identify the kind of things that they can do to know them better. >>And the benefit is really to hold there, right? And shale, I'll let you jump in, but to me, it's twofold. There. One is, you know, you want to have accurate decisions. You want to have low risk decisions. And if you want to be able to explain that to an individual that may get rejected, here's why, um, and, and it wasn't because of bias. It was because of XYZ and you need to work on these things, but go ahead shape. >>Now, this is going to add that point here, Dave, which is a double-faced point on the dam. One of the things that, and the reason why, you know, industries like healthcare, financial services spending billions, it's not because they look at AI in isolation, they actually looking at the existing processes. So, you know, established disciplines like CRM or supply chain procurement, whether it is contact center and so on. And the examples that we gave you earlier, it's about infusing AI into those existing applications, existing systems. And that's, what's creating the left because what's been missing so far is the silos of data and you traditional traditional transaction systems, but this notion of intelligence that can be infused into the systems and that's, what's creating this massive market opportunity for us. >>Yeah. And I think, um, I think a lot of people just misunderstood in the, or in the early, early days of the AI, you know, new AI when we came out of the AI winter, if you will, people thought, okay, the incumbents are in big trouble now because they are not, they're not AI developers, but really what you guys are showing is it's not about building your own AI. It's about applying AI and having the tools to do so. The incumbents actually have a huge advantage because they've got the systems in place. They can, if they, if they're smart, they can infuse AI and then extract value out of that for their customers. >>And that's why, you know, companies like, uh, like IBM are an investor in a great partner in this space. Anthem is an investor, uh, you know, of the company, but also, you know, someone who can utilize the capabilities, Microsoft, uh, Intel, um, you know, we've been, we've been, uh, you know, really blessed with a great backing Norwest venture partners, um, obviously is, uh, an investor in us as well. So, you know, we've seen the ability to really help those organizations think about, um, you know, where that future lies. But one of the things that is also, you know, one of the gaps in the promises when a C-suite executive like a digital transformation officer, chief digital chief customer officer, they're having their idea, they want to be accountable to that idea. They're having that idea in the boardroom. And they're saying, look, I think I can improve my customer satisfaction and, uh, by 20 points and decrease the cost of my call center by 20 or 30 or 50 points. >>Um, but they need to be able to measure that. So one of the other things that, uh, we've done a cognitive scale is help them understand the progress that they're making across those business goals. Um, now when you think about this people like Andrew Nang, or just really talking about this aspect of goal oriented AI, don't start with the problem, start with what your business goal is, start with, what outcome you're trying to drive, and then think about how AI helps you along that goal. We're delivering this now in our product, our version six product. So while some people are saying, yeah, this is really the right way to potentially do it. We have those capabilities in the product. And what we do is we identify this notion of the campaign, an AI campaign. So when the case that I just gave you where the chief digital officer is saying, I want to drive customer satisfaction up. >>I want to have more explainable decisions, and I want to drive cost down. Maybe I want to drive, call avoidance. Um, you know, and I want to be able to reduce a handling time, um, to drive those costs down, that is a campaign. And then underneath that campaign, there's all sorts of missions that support that campaign. Some of them are very long running. Some of them are very ephemeral. Some of them are cyclical, and we have this notion of the campaign and then admission planner that supports the goals of that campaign, showing that a leader, how they're doing against that goal by measuring the outcomes of every interaction against that mission and all the missions against the campaign. So, you know, we think accountability is an important part of that process as well. And we've never engaged an executive that says, I want to do this, but I don't want to be accountable to the result, but they're having a hard time identifying I'm spending this money. >>How do I ensure that I'm getting the return? And so we've put our, you know, our secret sauce into that space as well. And that includes, you know, the information around the trustworthiness of those, uh, capabilities. Um, and I should mention as well, you know, when we think about that aspect of the responsible AI capabilities, it's really important. The partnerships that we're driving across that space, no one company is going to have the perfect model intelligence tool to be able to address an enterprise's needs. It's much like cybersecurity, right? People thought initially, well, I'll do it myself. I'll just turn up my firewall. You know, I'll make my applications, you know, uh, you know, roll access much more granular. I'll turn down the permissions on the database and I'll be safe from cybersecurity. And then they realized, no, that's not how it was going to work. >>And by the way, the threats already inside and there's, long-term persistent code running, and you have to be able to scan it, have intelligence around it. And there are different capabilities that are specialized for different components of that problem. The same is going to be turnaround responsible and trustworthy AI. So we're partnered with people like IBM, people like Microsoft and others to really understand how we take the best of what it is that they're doing partner with the best, uh, that they're doing and make those outcomes better for clients. And then there's also leaders like the responsible AI Institute, which is a non-profit independent organization who were thinking about a new rating systems for, um, the space of responsible and trusted AI, thinking about things like certifications for professionals that really drive that notion of education, which is an important component of addressing the problem. And we're providing the integration of our tools directly with those assessments and those certifications. So if someone gets started with our platform, they're already using an ecosystem that includes independent thinkers from across the entire industry, um, including public sector, as well as the private sector, to be able to be on the cutting edge of what it's going to take to really step up to the challenge in that space. >>Yeah. You guys got a lot going on. I mean, you're eight years in now and you've got now an executive to really drive the next scale. You mentioned Bob, some of your investors, uh, Anthem, IBM Norwest, uh, I it's Crunchbase, right? It says you've raised 40 million. Is that the right number? Where are you in fundraising? What can you tell? >>Um, they're a little behind where we are, but, uh, you know, we're staged B and, uh, you know, we're looking forward to now really driving that growth. We're past that startup phase, and now we're into the growth phase. Um, and we're seeing, you know, the focus that we've applied in the industries, um, really starting to pay off, you know, initially it would be a couple of months as a customer was starting to understand what to be able to do with our capabilities to address their challenges. Now we're seeing that happen in weeks. So now is the right time to be able to drive that scalability. So we'll be, you know, looking in the market of how we assemble that, uh, you know, necessary capability to grow. Um, Shay and I have worked, uh, in the past year of, uh, with the board support of building out our go to market around that space. >>Um, and in the first hundred days, it's all about alignment because when you're going to go through that growth phase growth phase, you really have to make sure that things were pointed in the right direction and pointed together in the right direction, simplifying what it is that we're doing for the market. So people could really understand, you know, how unique we are in this space, um, and what they can expect out of an engagement with us. Um, and then, you know, really driving that aspect of designing to go to market. Um, and then scaling that. >>Yeah, I think I, it sounds like you've got, you got, if you're, if you're in down to days or weeks in terms of the ROI, it sounds like you've got product market fit nailed. Now it's about sort of the next phase is you really driving your go to market and the science behind how your dimension and your, your sales productivity, and you can now codify what you've learned in that first phase. I like the approach. A lot of, a lot of times you see companies, of course, this comes out of the west coast, east coast guy, but you see the double, double, triple, triple grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, and then, and then churn becomes that silent killer of the S the software company. I think you guys, it sounds you've, you've taken a much, much more adult-like approach, and now you're ready to really drive that scale. I think it's the new formula really for success for hitting escape velocity. Guys, we got to go, but thanks so much. Uh, uh, Bob, I'll give you the last word, w w w what you mentioned some of your a hundred day priorities. Maybe you can summarize that and what should we be looking for as Martin? >>I mean, I, I think, I think the, you know, the, our measures of success are our clients measure success and the same for our partners. So we're not doing this alone, we're doing it with system integrator partners, and we're doing it with a great technology partners in the market as well. So this is a part about keeping that promise for enterprise AI. And one of the things that I'll say just in the last couple of minutes is, you know, this is not just a company with a great vision and great engineers to develop out this great portfolio, but it's a company with great values, great commitments to its employees and the marketplace and the communities we serve. So I was attracted to the culture of this company, as well as I was, uh, to the, uh, innovation and what they mean to the, to the space of a, >>And I said, I said, I'll give you last word. Actually, I got a question for Shea you Austin based, is that correct? >>But we have a global presence, obviously I'm operating out of Austin, other parts of the U S but, uh, offices in, in, uh, in the UK, as well as in India, >>You're not moving to tax-free Texas. Like everybody else. >>I've got to, I've got an important home, uh, and life in Connecticut cell. I'll be traveling back and forth between Connecticut and Austin, but keeping my home there. >>Thanks for coming on and best of luck, we want to follow your progress and really appreciate your time today. Good luck. >>Thank you, Dave. All right. >>Thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Volante. We'll see you next time.

>>Yeah. Okay. Now we're going to dig deeper into HP es moral and try to better understand how it's going to impact customers. And with me to do that are Robert Christensen is the vice president strategy in the office of the C, T. O. And Kumar Srikanth is the chief technology officer and head of software both, of course, with Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Good seeing you. Thanks for having us. >>Always. Great. Great to see you guys. So, Esmeralda, kind of a interesting name. Catchy name. But tomorrow, what exactly is H P E s bureau? >>Yeah. It's indeed a catchy name. Our branding team done a fantastic job. I believe it's actually a derivation from Esmeralda. The Spanish for Emerald Berlin. Supposed to have some very mystical powers. Um, and they derived as moral from there, and we all actually, initially that we heard it was interesting. Um, so as well was our effort to take all the software, the platform tools that HB has and provide these modern operating platform to the customers and put it under one brand. It has a modern container platform. It has a persistent stories distribute the date of February. It has been foresight, as many of our customers similar, So it's the think of it as a container platform offering for modernization of the civilization of the customers. >>Yeah, it's an interesting to talk about platform, so it's not a lot of times people think product, but you're positioning it as a platform, so it has a broader implications. >>That's very true. So as the customers are thinking of this civilization, modernization containers and microservices, as you know there has become, has become the stable whole. So it's actually a container orchestration platform. It offers open source proven. It is as well as the persistence always bolted to >>so by the way, s moral, I think emerald in Spain, I think in the culture it also has immunity powers as well. So immunity >>from >>lock in and all those other terrible diseases. Maybe it helps us with covid to rob Robert. When you talk to customers, what problems do you probe for that that is immoral. Can can do a good job solving. >>Yeah, they That's a really great question because a lot of times they don't even know what it is that they're trying to solve for, other than just a very narrow use case. But the idea here is to give them a platform by which they can bridge both the public and private environment for what to do an application development specifically in the data side. So when they're looking to bring Container Ization, which originally got started on the public cloud and has moved its way, I should say, become popular in the public cloud and has moved its way on premises. Now Esmeralda really opens the door to three fundamental things. But how do I maintain an open architecture like you're referring to some low or oh, no lock in of my applications And there were two. How do I gain a data fabric or data consistency of accessing the data so I don't have to rewrite those applications when I do move them around and then, lastly, where everybody is heading down, the real value is in the AI ML initiatives that companies are are really bringing that value of their data and locking the data at where the data is being generated and stored. And so the is moral platform is those multiple pieces that I was talking about stacked together to deliver those solutions for the client. >>So come on, what's the How does it work? What's the sort of I p or the secret sauce behind it all? What makes HP different? >>Continuing our team of medical force around, uh, it's a moral platform for optimizing the data Indians who were close. I think I would say there are three unique characteristics of this platform. Number one is actually provides you both an ability to run stable and stateless were close under the same platform, and number two is as we were thinking about. Unlike analogues, covenant is open source. It actually produce you all open source government as well as an orchestration behind you. So you can actually you can provide this hybrid, um, thing that drivers was talking about. And then actually we built the work flows into it. For example, we're actually announced along with Esmeralda MLS, but on their customers can actually do the work flow management. Our own specifically did the work force. So the magic is if you want to see the secrets of is all the efforts that have been gone into some of the I p acquisitions that HBs the more years we should be. Blue Data bar in the nimble emphasize, all these pieces are coming together and providing a modern digitalization platform for the customers. >>So these pieces, they all have a little bit of a machine intelligence in them. Yeah, People used to think of a I as the sort of separate thing, having the same thing with containers, right? But now it's getting embedded in into the stack. What? What is the role of machine intelligence or machine learning in Edinburgh? >>I would take a step back and say, You know this very well. They're the customer's data amount of data that is being generated, and 95% or 98% of data is machine generated, and it has a serious amount of gravity, and it is sitting at the edge, and we were the only the only one that edge to the cloud data fabric that's built. So the number one is that we are bringing computer or a cloud to the data. They're taking the data to the cloud like if you go, it's a cloud like experience that provides the customer. Yeah, is not much value to us if we don't harness the data. So I said this in one of the blood. Of course, we have gone from collecting the data era to the finding insights into the data so that people have used all sorts of analysis that we are to find data is the new oil to the air and the data. And then now you're applications have to be modernized. And nobody wants to write an obligation in a non microservices fashion because you want to build the modernization. So if you bring these three things, I want to have a data. Gravity have lots of data. I had to build an area applications and I want to have an idea those three things I think we bring together to the customs. >>So, Robert, let's stay on customers from it. I mean, you know, I want to understand the business impact, the business case. I mean, why should all the you know, the cloud developers have all the fun? You mentioned that you're bridging the cloud and on Prem, uh, they talk about when you talk to customers and what they are seeing is the business impact. What's the real drivers for them. >>That's a great question because at the end of the day I think the reason survey that was that cost and performance is still the number one requirement for the real close. Second is agility, the speed of which they want to move. And so those two are the top of mind every time. But the thing we find in as moral, which is so impactful, is that nobody brings together the silicon, the hardware, the platform and all that stacked together work and combined, like as moral does with the platforms that we have and specifically, you know, when we start getting 90 92 93% utilization out of ai ml workloads on very expensive hardware, it really, really is a competitive advantage over a public cloud offering which does not offer those kind of services. And the cost models are so significantly different. So we do that by collapsing the stack. We take out as much intellectual property, give me, um, as much software pieces that are necessary. So we are closest to the silicon closest to the applications bring into the hardware itself, meaning that we can inter leave the applications, meaning that you can get to true multi tendency on a particular platform that allows you to deliver a cost optimized solution. So when you talk about the money side, absolutely. There's just nothing out there and then on the second side, which is agility. Um, one of the things that we know is today is that applications need to be built in pipelines. Right? This is something that has been established now for quite some time now. That's really making its way on premises. And what Kumar was talking about was, how do we modernize? How do we do that? Well, there's going to be something that you want to break into Microservices and containers. There's something you don't now the ones that they're going to do that they're gonna get that speed and motion etcetera out of the gate. And they can put that on premises, which is relatively new these days to the on premises world. So we think both will be the advantage. >>Okay, I want to unpack that a little bit. So the cost is clearly really 90 plus percent utilization. I mean, come on. You know, even even a pre virtualization. We know what it was like even with virtualization, you never really got that high. I mean, people would talk about it, but are you really able to sustain that in real world workloads? >>Yeah, I think when you I think when you when you make your exchangeable currency into small pieces, you can insert them into many areas. And we have one customer was running 18 containers on a single server and each of those containers, as you know, early days of data. You actually modernized what we consider we won containers of micro B. Um, so if you actually build these microservices and you have all anti affinity rules and you have rationing formulas all correctly, you can pack being part of these things extremely violent. We have seen this again. It's not a guarantee. It all depends on your application and your I mean, as an engineer, we want to always understand how this can be that sport. But it is a very modern utilization of the platform with the data and once you know where the data is, and then it becomes very easy to match those >>now. The other piece of the value proposition that I heard Robert is it's basically an integrated stack, so I don't have to cobble together a bunch of open source components. It's there. There's legal implications. There's obviously performance implications that I would imagine that resonates is particularly with the enterprise buyer, because they have the time to do all this integration. >>That's a very good point. So there is an interesting, uh, interesting question that enterprise they want to have an open source, so there is no lock in. But they also need help to implement and deploy and manage it because they don't have expertise. And we all know that Katie has actually brought that AP the past layer standardization. So what we have done is we've given the open source and you write to the covenant is happy, but at the same time orchestration, persistent stories, the data fabric, the ai algorithms, all of them are bolted into it. And on the top of that, it's available both as a licensed software and run on Prem. And the same software runs on the Green Lake so you can actually pay as you go and you don't we run it for them in in a collar or or in their own data center. >>Oh, good. I was one of my latter questions, so I can get this as a service paid by the drink. Essentially, I don't have to install a bunch of stuff on Prem and pay >>a perpetual license container at the service and the service in the last Discover. And now it's gone production. So both MLRS is available. You can run it on friends on the top of Admiral Container platform or you can run inside of the Green Bay. >>Robert, are there any specific use case patterns that you see emerging amongst customers? >>Yeah, absolutely. So there's a couple of them. So we have a really nice relationship that we see with any of the Splunk operators that were out there today. Right? So Splunk containerized their operator. That operator is the number one operator, for example, for Splunk, um, in the i t operation side or notifications as well as on the security operation side. So we found that that runs highly effective on top of his moral on top of our platforms that we just talked about what, uh, Kumar just talked about, but I want to also give a little bit of backgrounds to that same operator platform. The way that the Admiral platform has done is that we've been able to make highly active, active with a check availability at 95 nines for that same spark operator on premises on the kubernetes open source, which is, as far as I'm concerned. Very, very high end computer science work. You understand how difficult that is? Uh, that's number one. Number two, you'll see spark just a spark. Workloads as a whole. All right. Nobody handles spark workloads like we do. So we put a container around them, and we put them inside the pipeline of moving people through that basic, uh uh, ml ai pipeline of getting a model through its system through its train and then actually deployed to our MLS pipeline. This is a key fundamental for delivering value in the data space as well. And then, lastly, this is This is really important. When you think about the data fabric that we offer, um, the data fabric itself, it doesn't necessarily have to be bolted with the container platform to container at the actual data. Fabric itself can be deployed underneath a number of our for competitive platforms who don't handle data. Well, we know that we know that they don't handle it very well at all. And we get lots and lots of calls for people say, Hey, can you take your as Merrill data for every and solve my large scale, highly challenging data problems, we say yes. And then when you're ready for a real world full time but enterprise already, container platform would be happy to privilege. >>So you're saying if I'm inferring correctly, you're one of the values? Is your simplifying that whole data pipeline and the whole data science science project? Unintended, I guess. >>Okay, >>that's so so >>absolutely So where does the customer start? I mean, what what are the engagements like? Um, what's the starting point? >>It's being is probably one of the most trusted enterprise supplier for many, many years, and we have a phenomenal workforce of the both. The PowerPoint next is one of the leading world leading support organization. There are many places to start with. The right one is Obviously all these services are available on the green leg as we just start apart and they can start on a pay as you go basis. We have many customers that. Actually, some of the grandfather from the early days of pleaded and map are and they're already running, and they actually improvised on when, as they move into their next generation modernization, um, you can start with simple as metal container platform with persist with the story compared to this operation and can implement as as little as $10 and to start working. Um, and finally, there is a a big company like HP E. As an enterprise company defined next services. It's very easy for the customers to be able to get that support on the day to operation. >>Thank you for watching everybody's day volonte for the Cube. Keep it right there for more great content from Esmeralda. >>A mhm, okay.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality symposium brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi everybody. This is Dave Vellante and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the MIT CDOIQ 2020 event. Of course, it's gone virtual. We wish we were all together in Cambridge. They were going to move into a new building this year for years they've done this event at the Tang Center, moving into a new facility, but unfortunately going to have to wait at least a year, we'll see, But we've got a great guest. Nonetheless, Doug Laney is here. He's a Business Value Strategist, the bestselling author, an analyst, consultant then a long time CUBE friend. Doug, great to see you again. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Dave, great to be with you again as well. So can I ask you? You have been an advocate for obviously measuring the value of data, the CDO role. I don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like the last 150 days have done more to accelerate people's attention on the importance of data and the value of data than all the great work that you've done. What do you think? (laughing) >> It's always great when organizations, actually take advantage of some of these concepts of data value. You may be speaking specifically about the situation with United Airlines and American Airlines, where they have basically collateralized their customer loyalty data, their customer loyalty programs to the tunes of several billion dollars each. And one of the things that's very interesting about that is that the third party valuations of their customer loyalty data, resulted in numbers that were larger than the companies themselves. So basically the value of their data, which is as we've discussed previously off balance sheet is more valuable than the market cap of those companies themselves, which is just incredibly fascinating. >> Well, and of course, all you have to do is look to the Trillionaire's Club. And now of course, Apple pushing two trillion to really see the value that the market places on data. But the other thing is of course, COVID, everybody talks about the COVID acceleration. How have you seen it impact the awareness of the importance of data, whether it applies to business resiliency or even new monetization models? If you're not digital, you can't do business. And digital is all about data. >> I think the major challenge that most organizations are seeing from a data and analytics perspective due to COVID is that their traditional trend based forecast models are broken. If you're a company that's only forecasting based on your own historical data and not taking into consideration, or even identifying what are the leading indicators of your business, then COVID and the economic shutdown have entirely broken those models. So it's raised the awareness of companies to say, "Hey, how can we predict our business now? We can't do it based on our own historical data. We need to look externally at what are those external, maybe global indicators or other kinds of markets that proceed our own forecasts or our own activity." And so the conversion from trend based forecast models to what we call driver based forecast models, isn't easy for a lot of organizations to do. And one of the more difficult parts is identifying what are those external data factors from suppliers, from customers, from partners, from competitors, from complimentary products and services that are leading indicators of your business. And then recasting those models and executing on them. >> And that's a great point. If you think about COVID and how it's changed things, everything's changed, right? The ideal customer profile has changed, your value proposition to those customers has completely changed. You got to rethink that. And of course, it's very hard to predict even when this thing eventually comes back, some kind of hybrid mode, you used to be selling to people in an office environment. That's obviously changed. There's a lot that's permanent there. And data is potentially at least the forward indicator, the canary in the coal mine. >> Right. It also is the product and service. So not only can it help you and improve your forecasting models, but it can become a product or service that you're offering. Look at us right now, we would generally be face to face and person to person, but we're using video technology to transfer this content. And then one of the things that I... It took me awhile to realize, but a couple of months after the COVID shutdown, it occurred to me that even as a consulting organization, Caserta focuses on North America. But the reality is that every consultancy is now a global consultancy because we're all doing business remotely. There are no particular or real strong localization issues for doing consulting today. >> So we talked a lot over the years about the role of the CDO, how it's evolved, how it's changed the course of the early... The pre-title days it was coming out of a data quality world. And it's still vital. Of course, as we heard today from the Keynote, it's much more public, much more exposed, different public data sources, but the role has certainly evolved initially into regulated industries like financial, healthcare and government, but now, many, many more organizations have a CDO. My understanding is that you're giving a talk in the business case for the CDO. Help us understand that. >> Yeah. So one of the things that we've been doing here for the last couple of years is a running an ongoing study of how organizations are impacted by the role of the CDO. And really it's more of a correlation and looking at what are some of the qualities of organizations that have a CDO or don't have a CDO. So some of the things we found is that organizations with a CDO nearly twice as often, mention the importance of data and analytics in their annual report organizations with a C level CDO, meaning a true executive are four times more often likely to be using data, to transform the business. And when we're talking about using data and advanced analytics, we found that organizations with a CIO, not a CDO responsible for their data assets are only half as likely to be doing advanced analytics in any way. So there are a number of interesting things that we found about companies that have a CDO and how they operate a bit differently. >> I want to ask you about that. You mentioned the CIO and we're increasingly seeing lines of reporting and peer reporting alter shift. The sands are shifting a little bit. In the early days the CDO and still predominantly I think is an independent organization. We've seen a few cases and increasingly number where they're reporting into the CIO, we've seen the same thing by the way with the chief Information Security Officer, which used to be considered the fox watching the hen house. So we're seeing those shifts. We've also seen the CDO become more aligned with a technical role and sometimes even emerging out of that technical role. >> Yeah. I think the... I don't know, what I've seen more is that the CDOs are emerging from the business, companies are realizing that data is a business asset. It's not an IT asset. There was a time when data was tightly coupled with applications of technologies, but today data is very easily decoupled from those applications and usable in a wider variety of contexts. And for that reason, as data gets recognized as a business, not an IT asset, you want somebody from the business responsible for overseeing that asset. Yes, a lot of CDOs still report to the CIO, but increasingly more CDOs you're seeing and I think you'll see some other surveys from other organizations this week where the CDOs are more frequently reporting up to the CEO level, meaning they're true executives. Along I advocated for the bifurcation of the IT organization into separate I and T organizations. Again, there's no reason other than for historical purposes to keep the data and technology sides of the organizations so intertwined. >> Well, it makes sense that the Chief Data Officer would have an affinity with the lines of business. And you're seeing a lot of organizations, really trying to streamline their data pipeline, their data life cycles, bringing that together, infuse intelligence into that, but also take a systems view and really have the business be intimately involved, if not even owned into the data. You see a lot of emphasis on self-serve, what are you seeing in terms of that data pipeline or the data life cycle, if you will, that used to be wonky, hard core techies, but now it really involving a lot more constituent. >> Yeah. Well, the data life cycle used to be somewhat short. The data life cycles, they're longer and they're more a data networks than a life cycle and or a supply chain. And the reason is that companies are finding alternative uses for their data, not just using it for a single operational purpose or perhaps reporting purpose, but finding that there are new value streams that can be generated from data. There are value streams that can be generated internally. There are a variety of value streams that can be generated externally. So we work with companies to identify what are those variety of value streams? And then test their feasibility, are they ethically feasible? Are they legally feasible? Are they economically feasible? Can they scale? Do you have the technology capabilities? And so we'll run through a process of assessing the ideas that are generated. But the bottom line is that companies are realizing that data is an asset. It needs to be not just measured as one and managed as one, but also monetized as an asset. And as we've talked about previously, data has these unique qualities that it can be used over and over again, and it generate more data when you use it. And it can be used simultaneously for multiple purposes. So companies like, you mentioned, Apple and others have built business models, based on these unique qualities of data. But I think it's really incumbent upon any organization today to do so as well. >> But when you observed those companies that we talk about all the time, data is at the center of their organization. They maybe put people around that data. That's got to be one of the challenge for many of the incumbents is if we talked about the data silos, the different standards, different data quality, that's got to be fairly major blocker for people becoming a "Data-driven organization." >> It is because some organizations were developed as people driven product, driven brand driven, or other things to try to convert. To becoming data-driven, takes a high degree of data literacy or fluency. And I think there'll be a lot of talk about that this week. I'll certainly mention it as well. And so getting the organization to become data fluent and appreciate data as an asset and understand its possibilities and the art of the possible with data, it's a long road. So the culture change that goes along with it is really difficult. And so we're working with 150 year old consumer brand right now that wants to become more data-driven and they're very product driven. And we hear the CIO say, "We want people to understand that we're a data company that just happens to produce this product. We're not a product company that generates data." And once we realized that and started behaving in that fashion, then we'll be able to really win and thrive in our marketplace. >> So one of the key roles of a Chief Data Officers to understand how data affects the monetization of an organization. Obviously there are four profit companies of your healthcare organization saving lives, obviously being profitable as well, or at least staying within the budget, depending upon the structure of the organization. But a lot of people I think oftentimes misunderstand that it's like, "Okay, do I have to become a data broker? Am I selling data directly?" But I think, you pointed out many times and you just did that unlike oil, that's why we don't like that data as a new oil analogy, because it's so much more valuable and can be use, it doesn't fall because of its scarcity. But what are you finding just in terms of people's application of that notion of monetization? Cutting costs, increasing revenue, what are you seeing in the field? What's that spectrum look like? >> So one of the things I've done over the years is compile a library of hundreds and hundreds of examples of how organizations are using data and analytics in innovative ways. And I have a book in process that hopefully will be out this fall. I'm sharing a number of those inspirational examples. So that's the thing that organizations need to understand is that there are a variety of great examples out there, and they shouldn't just necessarily look to their own industry. There are inspirational examples from other industries as well, many clients come to me and they ask, "What are others in my industry doing?" And my flippant response to that is, "Why do you want to be in second place or third place? Why not take an idea from another industry, perhaps a digital product company and apply that to your own business." But like you mentioned, there are a variety of ways to monetize data. It doesn't involve necessarily selling it. You can deliver analytics, you can report on it, you can use it internally to generate improved business process performance. And as long as you're measuring how data's being applied and what its impact is, then you're in a position to claim that you're monetizing it. But if you're not measuring the impact of data on business processes or on customer relationships or partner supplier relationships or anything else, then it's difficult to claim that you're monetizing it. But one of the more interesting ways that we've been working with organizations to monetize their data, certainly in light of GDPR and the California consumer privacy act where I can't sell you my data anymore, but we've identified ways to monetize your customer data in a couple of ways. One is to synthesize the data, create synthetic data sets that retain the original statistical anomalies in the data or features of the data, but don't share actually any PII. But another interesting way that we've been working with organizations to monetize their data is what I call, Inverted data monetization, where again, I can't share my customer data with you, but I can share information about your products and services with my customers. And take a referral fee or a commission, based on that. So let's say I'm a hospital and I can't sell you my patient data, of course, due to variety of regulations, but I know who my diabetes patients are, and I can introduce them to your healthy meal plans, to your gym memberships, to your at home glucose monitoring kits. And again, take a referral fee or a cut of that action. So we're working with customers and the financial services firm industry and in the healthcare industry on just those kinds of examples. So we've identified hundreds of millions of dollars of incremental value for organizations that from their data that we're just sitting on. >> Interesting. Doug because you're a business value strategist at the top, where in the S curve do you see you're able to have the biggest impact. I doubt that you enter organizations where you say, "Oh, they've got it all figured out. They can't use my advice." But as well, sometimes in the early stages, you may not be able to have as big of an impact because there's not top down support or whatever, there's too much technical data, et cetera, where are you finding you can have the biggest impact, Doug? >> Generally we don't come in and run those kinds of data monetization or information innovation exercises, unless there's some degree of executive support. I've never done that at a lower level, but certainly there are lower level more immediate and vocational opportunities for data to deliver value through, to simply analytics. One of the simple examples I give is, I sold a home recently and when you put your house on the market, everybody comes out of the woodwork, the fly by night, mortgage companies, the moving companies, the box companies, the painters, the landscapers, all know you're moving because your data is in the U.S. and the MLS directory. And it was interesting. The only company that didn't reach out to me was my own bank, and so they lost the opportunity to introduce me to a Mortgage they'd retain me as a client, introduce me to my new branch, print me new checks, move the stuff in my safe deposit box, all of that. They missed a simple opportunity. And I'm thinking, this doesn't require rocket science to figure out which of your customers are moving, the MLS database or you can harvest it from Zillow or other sites is basically public domain data. And I was just thinking, how stupid simple would it have been for them to hire a high school programmer, give him a can of red bull and say, "Listen match our customer database to the MLS database to let us know who's moving on a daily or weekly basis." Some of these solutions are pretty simple. >> So is that part of what you do, come in with just hardcore tactical ideas like that? Are you also doing strategy? Tell me more about how you're spending your time. >> I trying to think more of a broader approach where we look at the data itself and again, people have said, "If you tortured enough, what would you tell us? We're just take that angle." We look at examples of how other organizations have monetized data and think about how to apply those and adapt those ideas to the company's own business. We look at key business drivers, internally and externally. We look at edge cases for their customers' businesses. We run through hypothesis generating activities. There are a variety of different kinds of activities that we do to generate ideas. And most of the time when we run these workshops, which last a week or two, we'll end up generating anywhere from 35 to 50 pretty solid ideas for generating new value streams from data. So when we talk about monetizing data, that's what we mean, generating new value streams. But like I said, then the next step is to go through that feasibility assessment and determining which of these ideas you actually want to pursue. >> So you're of course the longtime industry watcher as well, as a former Gartner Analyst, you have to be. My question is, if I think back... I've been around a while. If I think back at the peak of Microsoft's prominence in the PC era, it was like windows 95 and you felt like, "Wow, Microsoft is just so strong." And then of course the Linux comes along and a lot of open source changes and low and behold, a whole new set of leaders emerges. And you see the same thing today with the Trillionaire's Club and you feel like, "Wow, even COVID has been a tailwind for them." But you think about, "Okay, where could the disruption come to these large players that own huge clouds, they have all the data." Is data potentially a disruptor for what appear to be insurmountable odds against the newbies" >> There's always people coming up with new ways to leverage data or new sources of data to capture. So yeah, there's certainly not going to be around for forever, but it's been really fascinating to see the transformation of some companies I think nobody really exemplifies it more than IBM where they emerged from originally selling meat slicers. The Dayton Meat Slicer was their original product. And then they evolved into Manual Business Machines and then Electronic Business Machines. And then they dominated that. Then they dominated the mainframe software industry. Then they dominated the PC industry. Then they dominated the services industry to some degree. And so they're starting to get into data. And I think following that trajectory is something that really any organization should be looking at. When do you actually become a data company? Not just a product company or a service company or top. >> We have Inderpal Bhandari is one of our huge guests here. He's a Chief-- >> Sure. >> Data Officer of IBM, you know him well. And he talks about the journey that he's undertaken to transform the company into a data company. I think a lot of people don't really realize what's actually going on behind the scenes, whether it's financially oriented or revenue opportunities. But one of the things he stressed to me in our interview was that they're on average, they're reducing the end to end cycle time from raw data to insights by 70%, that's on average. And that's just an enormous, for a company that size, it's just enormous cost savings or revenue generating opportunity. >> There's no doubt that the technology behind data pipelines is improving and the process from moving data from those pipelines directly into predictive or diagnostic or prescriptive output is a lot more accelerated than the early days of data warehousing. >> Is the skills barrier is acute? It seems like it's lessened somewhat, the early Hadoop days you needed... Even data scientist... Is it still just a massive skill shortage, or we're starting to attack that. >> Well, I think companies are figuring out a way around the skill shortage by doing things like self service analytics and focusing on more easy to use mainstream type AI or advanced analytics technologies. But there's still very much a need for data scientists and organizations and the difficulty in finding people that are true data scientists. There's no real certification. And so really anybody can call themselves a data scientist but I think companies are getting good at interviewing and determining whether somebody's got the goods or not. But there are other types of skills that we don't really focus on, like the data engineering skills, there's still a huge need for data engineering. Data doesn't self-organize. There are some augmented analytics technologies that will automatically generate analytic output, but there really aren't technologies that automatically self-organize data. And so there's a huge need for data engineers. And then as we talked about, there's a large interest in external data and harvesting that and then ingesting it and even identifying what external data is out there. So one of the emerging roles that we're seeing, if not the sexiest role of the 21st century is the role of the Data Curator, somebody who acts as a librarian, identifying external data assets that are potentially valuable, testing them, evaluating them, negotiating and then figuring out how to ingest that data. So I think that's a really important role for an organization to have. Most companies have an entire department that procures office supplies, but they don't have anybody who's procuring data supplies. And when you think about which is more valuable to an organization? How do you not have somebody who's dedicated to identifying the world of external data assets that are out there? There are 10 million data sets published by government, organizations and NGOs. There are thousands and thousands of data brokers aggregating and sharing data. There's a web content that can be harvested, there's data from your partners and suppliers, there's data from social media. So to not have somebody who's on top of all that it demonstrates gross negligence by the organization. >> That is such an enlightening point, Doug. My last question is, I wonder how... If you can share with us how the pandemic has effected your business personally. As a consultant, you're on the road a lot, obviously not on the road so much, you're doing a lot of chalk talks, et cetera. How have you managed through this and how have you been able to maintain your efficacy with your clients? >> Most of our clients, given that they're in the digital world a bit already, made the switch pretty quick. Some of them took a month or two, some things went on hold but we're still seeing the same level of enthusiasm for data and doing things with data. In fact some companies have taken our (mumbles) that data to be their best defense in a crisis like this. It's affected our business and it's enabled us to do much more international work more easily than we used to. And I probably spend a lot less time on planes. So it gives me more time for writing and speaking and actually doing consulting. So that's been nice as well. >> Yeah, there's that bonus. Obviously theCUBE yes, we're not doing physical events anymore, but hey, we've got two studios operating. And Doug Laney, really appreciate you coming on. (Dough mumbles) Always a great guest and sharing your insights and have a great MIT CDOIQ. >> Thanks, you too, Dave, take care. (mumbles) >> Thanks Doug. All right. And thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, our continuous coverage of the MIT Chief Data Officer conference, MIT CDOIQ, will be right back, right after this short break. (bright music)

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. Thank you for being on two. Very, >> very excited about what we have going on for those of you not familiar with that Ella Keira, and I'm going to say his name incorrectly. Look here. Is that correct? Had >> the care is right. Very good. Yes. Also, >> I've practiced that about nineteen times. Oh, the other night, and I can't feel like I get it wrong and is one of the more well rounded individuals I've come across. His work is awesome. Initially learned quite a bit about him from Chase Phelps, who we had on earlier, and that came through Moore from blood flow restriction training. I've had the pleasure of reading up on quite a bit, and his background is more than unique. Well, around his understatement and really excited have on, I call him one of the most unique individuals people need to know about, especially in the sports science sylph sports science world. He really encompasses quite a bit of just about every domain you could think about. So add Thank you for being on here if you don't mind giving a little bit of background and a bio about yourself. >> Thanks so much. You know, not to. Not to warn anybody, really. But it kind of started as a front line medic in the Army. Really? You know, the emphasis back then was a get people back toe action as soon as possible. So that was my mindset. I spent about eight years in an emergency department learning and training through them. I undergo interviews and exercise physiology from University of California. Davis. I love exercise science. I love exercise physiology. Yeah, started doing athletic training because my junior year in college, I was a Division one wrestler. Tor my a c l p c l N L C E o my strength coach, chiropractor, athletic trainer all the above. Help me get back rustling within four months with a brace at a pretty high level of visual. On level on guy was like, Well, I don't want to go to med school, but what I want to do is help other people recover from injury and get back to the activities that they love. And so I was kind of investigating. Try to figure out what I wanted to do, Really want to be an athletic trainer? We didn't realize how much or how little money they make, um And so I was kind of investigating some other things. Checked out physical therapy, dentistry. But I really wanted to be in the locker room. I wanted to have my own practice. I wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do and not sit on protocols and things like that because I don't think that exists. And so I chose chiropractic school. I went to chiropractic school, learned my manual therapy, my manual techniques, diagnosis, loved it, was able to get patients off the street, didn't have tto live and die by insurance and referrals, was able only to open my own clinic. And and about four years in I realized that I didn't really know very much. I knew howto adjust people, and you had to do a little bit soft tissue. But not really. We weren't taught that I felt like my exercise background and really dropped off because I wasn't doing a lot of strength conditioning anymore. And so I went back and got a phD in sports medicine and athletic training. I had a really big goal of publishing and trying to contribute to the literature, but also understanding the literature and how it applies to the clinical science and clinical practice and try to bridge the gap really, between science and in the clinic and love treating patients. I do it every single day. A lot of people think I don't cause I write so much education, but, like I'm still in my clinic right now, twelve hours a day in the last three days, because it's what I love to dio on DH. Then just for kicks and giggles, I went out and got an MBA, too, so I worked in a lot of different environments. Va Medical System, twenty four hour Fitness Corporate I've consulted for a lot of companies like rock tape. It was their medical director. Fisma no trigger point performance. Have done some research for Sarah Gun kind of been able to do a lot with the phD, which I love, but really, my home base is in the clinic in the trenches, helping people get better. In fact, >> activity. That's awesome. Yeah, Tio coming from athletic training back on athlete. So I myself play I. Smit played small Division three basketball, and I'm a certified athletic trainer as well, and it's the initial love you kind of fall into being in that realm, and that's who you typically work with and then realizing that maybe the hours and the practice that they do isn't fit for you and finding ways you can really get a little more hands on work. I took the sports scientists route. It sounds like you're out has been just about everything and all the above. So it's great to hear that because having that well rounded profile, we weren't athlete. Now you've been in the medical side of the street condition inside even the business development side. You really see all domains from different angles. Now I know you are the educational director for smart tools with their blood flow restriction training chase. How younger? Very highly, uh, about your protocols. I've listened to some of them. If you don't mind diving into a little bit, what exactly is blood flow restriction training and what are the potential benefits of it? >> Yeah, you know it is about two thousand fourteen. I got approached by smart tools. They had developed the only FDA listed or at that point of FDA approved instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization tools other people like to call it, you know, basically grass in or whatever. Andi was really intrigued with what their philosophy wass, which was Hey, we want to make things in the US We want to create jobs in the U. S. And and we want to create the highest quality product that also is affordable for the small clinic. Whereas before the options Ray, you know, three thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars here on DH. So I wrote education for smart tools because of that, and because I just blot. I just believed so much in keeping things here in the U. S. And providing jobs and things locally. Um, so that's really where this all started. And in about two thousand fifteen, my buddy Skylar Richards up FC Dallas he has of the MLS. Yes, the the the lowest lost game days in the MLS. And yeah, I mean, when you think about that and how hard that is such a long season, it's such a grind is the longest season in professional sports. You think? Well, what is he doing there? I mean, I really respect his work up there. And so, like, you know, we were working on a project together and how I was fortunate enough to meet him. And I just really got to pick his brand on a lot of stuff and things I was doing in the clinic. And what could I do? Be doing better. And then one day it just goes, you know, have you seen this be afar stuff? And I'm like, No, I have no idea. It's your idea about it. And so, as usual at the science geek that I am, I went and I went to med sports discus. And I was like, Holy crap, man, I can't even I can't even understand how many articles are out there regarding this already. And this is back to you in two thousand fifteen, two thousand sixteen. I was so used to, you know, going and looking up kinesiology, tape research and being really bad. And you gotta kind of apply. You gotta apply a lot of these products to research. That's really not that strong. This was not the case. And so I brought it to neck the CEO of startles. And like, Dude, we've really got a look at this because really, there's only one option, and I saw the parallels between what was happening with Instrument assisted where there wasn't very many options, but they were very, very expensive and what we could do now with another thing that I thought was amazing. And it wasn't a passive modality because I was super excited about because, you know, I had to become a corrective exercise specialist because I knew I didn't have enough time with people to cause to strengthen hypertrophy. But be afar allows me to do that. And so that's really where I kind of switched. My mind went well, I really need to start investigating this and so to answer your question. VFR is the brief and in tremendous occlusion of arterial and venous blood flow, using a tourniquet while exercising at low intensities or even at rest. And so what that means is we basically use it a medical grade tourniquet and restrict the amount of oxygen or blood flow into a limb while it's exercising and totally including Venus, return back to the heart. And what this does is the way that explains my patients. Is it essentially tricks your brain into thinking you're doing high intensity exercise. But you're not and you're protecting tissue and you don't cause any muscle damage that you normally would with high intensity exercise or even low intensity exercise the failure. And so it works perfectly for those people that we can't compromise tissue like for me in a rehab center. >> Gotcha. Yeah, no, it's It's a super interesting area, and it's something that I have dove into not nearly as much as you have. But you can see the benefits really steaming back from its origins right when it was Katsu train in Japan, made for older adults who couldn't really exercise that needed a fine way to induce hypertrophy now being used to help expedite the healing process being used in season after ah, difficult gamed and prove healing, or whether it's not for whether or not it's used to actually substitute a workout. When travel becomes too demanding, toe actually load the system now with B f ar, Are you getting in regards to hypertrophy similar adaptations? Hypertrophy wise. If you were to do be a far with a low low, say, twenty percent of your one right max, compared to something moderately heavier, >> yeah, or exceeds in the time frame. You know, true hypertrophy takes according to the literature, depending on what reference you're looking at at the minimum, twelve weeks, but more likely sixteen weeks. And you've got to train at least sixty five percent. Or you've got to take low intensity loads to find his twenty to thirty five percent of one read max all the way to failure, which we know causes damage to the tissue be a farce. Starts to show hypertrophy changes that we two. So you know, my my best. My so I this It's kind of embarrassing, but it is what it is. But like, you know, I started learning mother our stuff. I'm a earlier Dr. Right? So I go right away and I go by the first product, I can. I have zero idea what I'm doing there. Zero like and a former Mr America and Mr Olympia Former Mr America champion and the one of the youngest Mr Olympia Tze Hor Olympia Mr Olympia ever compete. He competed and hey didn't stand But anyway so high level bodybuilder Okay, whatever you us. But he was definitely Mr America. He comes into my clinic when I was in Denver, It was probably a neighbour of you at the time, and he and he's like, Okay, I got this pain in my in my tryst up. It's been there for six months. I haven't been able to lift this heavy. My my arm isn't his biggest driving me crazy, right? The bodybuilder, of course, is driving him crazy, so I measure it. He's a half inch difference on his involves side versus on uninvolved side. I diagnosed him with Try some tendinitis at zero idea what I'm doing and be a far. But I said, Listen, I want you to use these cuffs. I got to go to Europe. I gotta go lecture in Europe for a couple weeks and I want you two, three times a week. I want you to do three exercise. I like to use the TRX suspension trainer. I've done a lot of work with them, and I really respect their product and I love it for re up. So I said, Listen, I want you three exercises on the suspension trainer I want to do is try to do a bicep. I want to do some, you know, compound exercise, and in that case I gave, Melo wrote, Come back in two weeks. He comes back in the clinic. I remember her is involved. Side was a quarter of an inch larger than his uninvolved type, and he's like, Do, That's two weeks. I'm like, Dude, that's two weeks And he's like, This is crazy and I go, Yeah, I agree. And since then, I've been, like, bought it like it's for hypertrophy. It is unbelievable. You get people that come in and I've had, you know, like after my injury in college rustling I my a c l I've torn it three times. Now, you know, my quad atrophy was bad. My calf was not the same size, literally. Symmetry occurs so quickly. When you start applying these principles, um, it just blows me away. >> So when you're using it, are using it more and isolated manner or are doing more compound exercises. For example, if you're doing a C l artifically assuming they're back too full function ish, Are you doing bodyweight squads or that starting off with the extensions? How do you kind of progress that up program? >> Yeah, it really just depends on where they're at. Like, you know, day with a C l's. You can pretty much start if there's no contraindications, you convey. Stay docks. Start day one. I'm right after surgery to try to prevent as much of that quad wasting that we get from re perfusion, injury and reactive oxygen species. All the other things that occur to literally day one. You can start and you'LL start isolated. You might start with an isometric. I really do like to do isometrics early on in my in my rehab. Um, and you can use the cops and you can You can fatigue out all the motor units if they're not quite air yet. Like, let's say, pre surgically, where they can't use the lamb, they're in a they're either bedridden or they're in a brace or they're a cast. You can use it with electric stim and or a Russian stem. And with that contraction, not only did you drive growth hormone, but you can also prevent atrophy by up to ninety, ninety five percent so you can start early early on, and I like to call it like phases of injury, right? Like pre surgical or pre injury, right at injury, you kind of get into the sub acute phase of inflammation. You kind of progressed isolated exercises and he goingto isolated in compound and you going to compound in any kind of move through the gamut. What's so cool about the afar is you're not having to reinvent the wheel like you use the same protocols, even use. I mean, really. I mean, if you're using lightweight with sarabande or resistance to being which I do every day, I'd be a far on it. Now, instead of your brain thinking you're not doing anything, your brain's like whoa, high intensity exercise. Let's let's help this tissue recovered because it's got to get injured. So we're gonna grow. >> That's yeah, that's pretty amazing. I've used it myself. I do have my smart tools. I'm biased. I like what you're doing. I really like the fact that there's no cords. It's quite mobile, allows us to do sled pushes, resisted marches, whole wide span and movements on DH before we're kind of hopped on air here. You're talking about some of the nutritional interventions you add to that, whether it be vitamin C college in glucose to mean. What specifically are you putting together on DH? Why're you doing that? Is that for tissue healing? >> Yeah, that's right. It's way. Have ah, in my clinic were Multidisciplinary Clinic in Dallas, Texas, and called the Body Lounge is a shameless plug, but way really believe that healing has to start from the inside, that it has to start with the micro nutrients and then the macro nutrients. And then pretty much everything can be prevented and healed with nutrition and exercise. That's what we truly believe, and that's what we try to help people with. The only thing that I use manual therapy for and I do a lot of needling and all these other things is to help people get it down there. Pain down enough so that they can do more movement. And so, from a micro nutrient standpoint, we've gotta hit the things that are going to help with college and synthesis and protein sentences, So that would be protein supplementation that would be vitamin C. We do lots of hydration because most of us were walking around dehydrated. If you look at some of the studies looking at, you know, even with a normal diet, magnesium is deficient. Vitamin C is deficient during the winter all of us are vitamin D deficient Bluetooth. I own production starts, you know, basically go to kneel. So all those things we we will supplement either through I am injection intramuscular injection or through ivy >> and you guys take coral. Someone's on that, too for some of the good Earth ion for the violent de aspects are taking precursors in a c. Are you guys taking glue to file? >> We inject glorify on either in your inner, either in your i V or in in the I am. You know, with the literature supporting that you only absorb about five to ten percent of whatever aural supplementation you take. We try to we try to push it. I am arrive. And then in between sessions, yes, they would take Coral to try to maintain their levels. We do pre, you know, lab testing, prior lab testing after to make sure we're getting the absorption rate. But a lot of our people we already know they don't absorb B twelve vitamin, and so we've got to do it. Injectable. >> Yeah, Chef makes sense with the B f r itself. And when I get a couple of questions knocked out for I go too far off topic. I'm curious about some of these cellars swelling protocols and what that specifically is what's happening physiologically and how you implement that. >> Yeah, so South Swell Protocol, where we like to call a five by five protocol way. Use the tourniquet. It's in the upper extremity at fifty percent limb occlusion pressure at eighty percent limb occlusion pressure in the lower extremity. You keep him on for five minutes, and then you rest for three minutes, meaning I deflate the cuffs. But don't take them off, and then I re inflate it same pressure for five minutes and then deflate for three minutes. You're five on three off for five rounds, justified by five protocol. What's happening is that you're basically you're creating this swelling effect because, remember, there's no Venus return, so nothing is. But you're getting a small trickle in of fluid or blood into that limb. And so what happens is the extra Seiler's extra Styler swelling occurs. Our body is just dying for Homo stasis. The pressures increase, and there's also an osmotic uh, change, and the fluid gets pushed extra. Sara Lee into the muscle cell body starts to think that you're going to break those muscle cells. I think of it as like a gay. A za water balloon is a great analogy that I've heard. So the water balloon is starting to swell that muscle cell starts to swell. Your body thinks your brain thinks that those cells need to protect themselves or otherwise. They're going to break and cause a popped oh sis or die. And so the response is this whole cascade of the Mt. Horsey one, which is basically a pathway for protein synthesis. And that's why they think that you can maintain muscle size in in inactive muscle through the South Swell Protocol and then when we do this, also protocol. I also like to add either isometrics if I can or if they're in a cast at electric stim. I like to use the power dot that's my favorite or a Russian stim unit, and then you consent. Make the setting so that you're getting muscular. Contraction with that appears to drive growth forma, and it drives it about one and a half times high intensity exercise and up to three times more so than baseline. When we have a growth hormone spurt like that and we have enough vitamin C. It allows for college and synthesis. I like to call that a pool of healing. So whether you can or cannot exercise that limb that's injured if I can create that pool of healing systemically now I've got an environment that can heal. So I have zero excuse as a provider not to get people doing something to become, you know, healing faster, basically. And are you >> typically putting that at the end? If they were training? Or is that typically beginning? We're in this session I put in assuming that that is done in conjunction with other movements. Exercises? >> Yeah, so, like, let's say I have a cast on your right leg. You've got a fracture. I failed to mention also that it appears that the Afar also helps with bone healing. There's been a couple studies, Um, so if we could get this increased bone healing and I can't use that limb that I'm going to use the other lambs and I'm going to use your cardiovascular function, um, I'm going to use you know, you Let's say with that leg, I'LL do upper body or a commoner with cuffs on in order to train their cardiovascular systems that way. Maintain aerobic capacity while they're feeling for that leg, I will do crossover exercises, so I'll hit that opposite leg because something happens when I use the cuffs on my left leg. I get a neurological response on my right leg, and I and I maintain strength and I reduced the amount of atrophy that occurs. And it's, you know, it's all in neurological. So if I had an hour with somebody and I was trying to do the cell school protocol, I would probably do it first to make sure because it's a forty minute protocol. It is a long protocol. If you add up five, five minutes on three minutes off now, during the three minutes off, I could be soft tissue work. I can do other things toe help that person. Or I could just have an athletic tournament training room on a table, and they can learn to inflate and deflate on their own. It doesn't like it's not has to be supervised the whole time, and that's usually what they do in my office is I'LL put him in the I V Lounge and i'Ll just teach them how to inflate deflate and they just keep time. Uh and there, go ahead. I mean, interrupt my bowl. No, no, no, it's okay. And then I just hit other areas. So if I do have extra time, then I might Do you know another body pushing upper body pole? I might do, you know, whatever I can with whatever time I have. If you don't have that much time, then you do the best you can with the cells for protocol. And who study just came out that if you only do two rounds of that, you don't get the protein synthesis measured through M. Dorsey long. So a lot of times, people ask me what can I just do this twice and according to the literature looks like No, it's like you have to take it two five because you've got to get enough swelling to make it to make the brain think that you're gonna explode >> those muscle cells. >> Well, let me take a step back and trap process majority of that. So essentially, what you do with the seller swelling protocol is that you initiate initiating protein synthesis by basically tripping the body that those cells themselves are going to break down. And then when you add the message of the electrical muscular stimulation, you're getting the growth hormone response, the otherwise wouldn't. Is >> that correct? That's correct. So and go ahead. So imagine after a game, I just you know, I'm Skyler Richards. I just got done with my team. Were on the bus or on the airport, our airplane. My guys have just finished a match. You know, you're Fords have run seven miles at high intensity sprint. You think we have any muscle breakdown? Probably have a little bit of damage. They gotta play again in a few days, and I want to do things to help the recovery. Now I put them on with East M. They're not doing any exercise. There's just chilling there, just hanging out. But we're getting protein synthesis. We're getting growth hormone production. I give him some vitamin C supplementation. I give him some protein supplementation, and now not only do we have protein census, but we also have growth hormone in college, in formation in the presence of vitamin C. So that's where we kind of get into the recovery, which chase is doing a >> lot of work with and how much vitamin C are supplemented with, >> you know, really depends. I try to stick to ride around in a new patient. I won't go start off three thousand and I'LL go to five thousand milligrams. It will cause a little dirty pants if I can quote some of my mentors so I try to start them light and I'll move them up I'LL go with eyes ten thousand if I need it but typically stay in the three to five thousand range >> And are you having collagen with that as well? >> I personally don't but I think it would be a good idea if he did >> with some of that. I guess I really like the idea of using the B f R a zit on the opposite lake that's injured to increase cortical drive. So we're listeners who aren't familiar when you're training one limb yet a neurological phenomenon that occurs to increase performance in the other limb. And so what ends referred to if you had one lamb that was immobilizing couldn't function. If you use BF are on the other limb, you're able to stimulate, so it's higher type to voter units able have a cortical drive that near maximal intent, which is going to help, then increase the performance of the other leg that you also say that is promoting this positive adaptation environment is kind of hormonal. Malu I per se How long does that last for the presence of growth hormone? >> It looks like that the stimulation last somewhere between forty eight and seventy two hours. And so I think that that's why when they've done studies looking at doing the afar for strength of hypertrophy, you know, five days a week, compared to two to three days a week for two to three days a week, or just essentially equal to the five days a week. So I think it is long enough that if you do it like twice a week that you're going to get enough cross over >> cash it and you're using it two for the anthologies of effect. So what do you using Be fr yu have that temporary time period of time window where a need that might be bothering your doesn't irritate as much. And are you using that window than to train other exercise and movements while they have, ah, pain for emotion. >> Yeah, absolutely. So it's and I really can't explain it. It's, um we know from the science that it doesn't matter what type of exercise that we do. There is an animal Jesus effect. And that's why I emphasized so much with provider, especially manual therapists attend to think, Hey, you know, my my hands or my needles or my laser or my ultrasound or East them or whatever it is, is the healing driver. It's not the healing driver exercises a healing driver, and I know that's my opinion and people argue with me. But it's true. My hands are not nearly as important as getting people moving because of the energies that perfect and just overall health effects. With that said, the Afar has some sort of Anil Jesus effect that I can't explain now. Of course, we all know it's in the brain. There's something that goes on where you're able to reduce the pain level for up to forty five minutes and then I can train in that window. There is an overall ability to improve people's movement even longer than that, to what I find is that once I get people moving their tenancy just like inertia. Once you get to move in, it keeps moving. Same thing with people that I work with. They tend to get moving more in my clinic. They get confidence, then they end up moving more and more and more. And they get away from, um, being >> scared. Yeah, I know that. That's a great way to put it, because you do have that hesitation to move. And when you providing a stimulus that might ease some of the pain momentarily. I know there is some research out there. Look at Tanaka Thie, the ten apathy being like knee pain, essentially the layman's term kind way to put it. And they're doing it with, like the Metrodome in the background going Ping Ping ping. They're having that external stimulus that they focus on to help disassociate the brain and the knee and the pain. And this is something I can't top what chase and how he says. Yeah, we've been using, like you alluded to Thebe fr, too. Remove the presence of pain so they can do something. These exercises that they typically associate with pain in a pain for your way. >> Yeah, And then now that they're exercising now you get the additional Anil Jesus effect of the exercise itself. Says I'm like a double like a double lang >> Gotcha. Yeah, with blood flow restriction train because it does promote such an environment that really has an intense Jane court stimulus to the body where you get this type to five or stimulated high levels of lactate high levels of metabolite accumulation. I said she had paper about the possible use of bloodflow restriction trading cognitive performance has curious if you had a chance account dive into some of that. I love to hear some of your thoughts being that you have such asshole listed view of everything. >> Yeah, definitely. I think I didn't get a chance to look at it. I appreciate you sending that to me because I have to lecture and may on reaction times, and I was trying to figure out how I'm gonna like include the afar in this lecture at some point, not be totally, you know, inauthentic. But now I can. So I totally appreciate it. I know that there is, and I know that there's an additional benefit. I've seen it. I've worked with stroke patients, other types of people that I have auto, immune, disease, different types of conditions where I've used the Afar and their functional capacity improves over what their physical capacity is doing on. And so I am not surprised at what I'm seeing with that. And I've got to learn more about what other people are thinking. It was interesting what you sent me regarding the insulin growth factor one. We know that that's driven up much higher with the Afar compared to low intensity exercise and the relationship between that and cognitive function. So I've gotta dive deeper into it. I'm not definitely not a neuroscientists, You know, I'm like a pretty much floor if I p e teacher and, you know, just trying to get people moving. And I've gotta understand them more because there is a large association between that exercise component and future >> health, not just of muscles but also a brain. Yeah, >> one of things that I do work with a neurosurgeon and he's awesome. Dr. Chat Press Mac is extremely intelligent, and he saw the blood flow restriction trade as one those means to improve cognitive performance, and I didn't find the paper after he had talked about it. Well, the things that interested me was the fact that is this huge dresser, especially in a very controlled where typically, if you're going to get that level of demand on the body, you knew something very intense. So do something that is almost no stress, Feli controlled and then allowing yourself to maybe do some sort of dual processing tasks with its reaction time and reading for use in a diner vision board. Whether if you have a laser on your head, you have to walk in a straight line while keeping that laser dot on a specific screen. I'm excited to see how be afar material or just something other domains. Whether it is, you know, motor learning or reeducation ofthe movement or vestibular therapy. I think this has a very unique place to really stress the body physiologically without meeting to do something that requires lots of equipment for having someone run up and down with a heavy sled. I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts. I know you haven't had a huge opportunity dive into, but if I had a hand, you the the key to say Hey What do you see in the future for be fr in regards to not just the cognitive standpoint but ways you can use B a far outside of a physical training area. What kinds? Specific domains. You see it being utilised in >> we'LL definitely recovery. I love the fact of, you know, driving growth hormone and supplement incorrectly and letting people heal faster naturally. Ah, I think the ischemic preconditioning protocol is very underutilized and very not known very well, and he's skimming. Preconditioning is when we use one hundred percent occlusion either of the upper extremity or the lower extremity. We keep it on for five minutes and we do two rounds with a three minute rest in between. And I have used this to decrease pain and an athlete prior to going out and playing like a like a high level sport or doing plyometrics. We're doing other things where they're going to get muscle damage to that eye intensity exercise so you get the Anil Jesus effect around an injured tissue. But they really unique thing about the ischemic preconditioning is that it has been shown to reduce the amount of muscle damage that occurs due to the exercise. That's why they call it Preconditioning so we can utilize a prior to a game. We can use a prior to a plyometrics session. We can use it prior to a high intensity lifting session and reduce the amount of damage that occurs to the tissue. So we don't have such a long recovery time when we could continue to train at high levels. I think that that is probably the most exciting thing that I've seen. Absent of cognitive possibilities, I think it wise it on is I'd like to use with the lights. What do some lights? Teo, do some reaction time and do some, you know, memory training and things. And I love to torture my people and get them nice and tired. I think what's going to come around is all these mechanisms. They are what they are. But the true mechanism that I'm seeing is that fatigue is the primary factor. If I can fatigue you centrally and Aiken fatigue, you peripherally and the muscle that's for the adaptation occurs So although right now you know we always are on these. We have to use the specific sets and rats and weights and all these other things so true for the research, because we need to make it is homogenous as we can, but in clinic, if you're a patient, comes to me with a rotator cuff tear. I don't know what you're on, right, Max is for your external rotation. I've gotta guess. And so if I don't do exactly the right amount of weight, doesn't mean I'm not getting the benefit. Well, I'm telling you, anecdotally, that's not true. I just know that I have to take you to fatigue. And so if I'm off by a couple of wraps a big deal, I'm just not going to take you to failure. So I don't get the injury to the tissue that you normally would occur with lightweight to failure. I'm gonna get that fatigue factor. I'm going to get you to adapt, and I'm gonna get you bigger and stronger today than you were yesterday. That's the >> goal. Yeah, that's ah, that's a great way to put it because you're looking at again, you know, mechanisms in why things are occurring versus, you know, being stuck to literature. I have to use twenty percent. How do we find a way to fatigue this system and be fr being a component of that now, outside of blood flow research in train with your practice, it sounds It is quite holistic. Are there any specific areas that you see the other? That was other therapists other, You know, holistic environments could learn from outside of blood flow restriction training. What areas could they really? You know what advice such a safer that I would you give someone who's tried together holistic program to dive into outside of Sebi Afar? Is there any specific devices specific modalities supposed to specific means for a nutrition for that? >> I mean, if I was to try to put us you know what we're trying to dio. I would say that it's all about capacity versus demand. I want to try to maximize the capacity of the individual or the organism to exceed the demands that you're trying to apply to it. If we can do that, will keep you injury free will keep forming. If I allow those demands to exceed your capacity, you're going to get injured. So what can I do to maximize your capacity through nutrition, through exercise, through rest, through meditation, through prayer, through whatever that is through sleep? I think that that's really looking at the person as a whole. And if I can keep thinking about what are the demands that I'm applying? Teo, whatever tissue that is, and I can keep those demands just slightly below and try to increase the capacity, I'm going to get people better. And really, that's all I think about. Can that disk take how much pressure cannot take and what direction can I take it? Well, I'm gonna work at that direction and so we can do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and I try to really make it simple for myself versus Reliant on a modality or anything else in that matter. Really, it's It's really just thinking about how much How much can they How much can they tolerate? And I'm goingto put restrictions on you so that you don't exceed that capacities That way that tissue can heal. And if it can't and you know, maybe that's referral to you know, some of the surgeons are non surgical positions that I work with is they may be fail my treatment. Most people can improve their capacity. We've seen eighty five year olds, Not just me, I'm saying in the literature. Improve their strength through resistance training. Eighty five. The body will always adapt. Ware not weak beings were not fragile, Weaken De stressed and we need to be stressed and we need to be stressed until the day that you put me in the grave. Otherwise we will get Sir Compagnia and we will degrade and our brain will become mush. And I just want to go that way. And I want help as many people that have the same philosophy, whether I'm doing it, one on one with somebody from teaching others. I want them now The same philosophy, Tio >> well, that makes total sense. I love the idea of we need to continually stress ourselves because do you feel like as we age, we have a Smith or belief that we can't do more, but we can't do more because we stopped doing more? Not because we can't. I work with an individual who are hey, hip replacement. Ninety six years old. He came back and four months later was working out again. And that alone was enough evidence for me to realize that it's not necessarily about, Oh, as I get older, I have to be this and we kind of have that thought process. As we age, we do less so we start to do left but find ways to stress the system in a way that can handle it right to the idea. What is the capacity, like you said? And what is their ability to adapt? Are there any specific ways that you assess an individual's capacity to handle load? Is that a lot of subject of understanding who they are? Further any other metrics you using whether we sleep tracking H R V for anything in that domain? >> I have not really done a lot of a lot of that. It's more about, you know what they tell me they want to do. You know you want to come in and you want a lift. Your grandkid. Well, that's That's our That's our marker. You want to come in and you want to do the cross that open. Okay, well, that's your marker. You want to come in, you want to run a marathon. That's your marker. You know, we could always find markers either of activities of daily living or they could be something out there. That's that's that. That's a goal. You know, Never don't half marathon, and I want to do that. So those were really the markers that I use haven't gotten into a lot of the other things. My environment, you >> know? I mean, I would love to have ah, >> whole performance center and a research lab and all that stuff and then, you know, maybe someday that with what I have and what I work with, it's it's more about just what the person wants to do and what is something fun for them to do to keep them active and healthy and from, and that really becomes the marker. And if it's not enough, you know, somebody had a e r physician committee as well. You know, I walk, you know, twenty or thirty minutes and then I walked, you know, at work all day. And I'm like Did It's not enough. And I sent him some articles that looking at physiological adaptation to walking and he's like, Yeah, you're right, it's not enough that I'm like, you know, we're a minimalist. Were like Okay, well, this is the vitamin C you need in order to be healthy, not the recommendations are so you don't get scurvy. A lot is a big difference between, you know, fending off disease versus optimal health. I'm out for optimal health, So let's stress the system to the point where we're not injuring ourselves. But we are pushing ourselves because I think there's such a huge physiological and but also psychological benefit to that. >> Yeah, this that's a great way to put it riff. Ending off disease, right? We're not. Our health care system is not very proactive. You have to have something go wrong for your insurance to take care of it. It's very backwards. That's unfortunate. Then we would like to be like. It's a place where let's not look at micro nutrients and you what were putting in her body as a means to what he says you avoided and scurry. Well, let's look at it from way to actually function and function relative to our own capacity in our own goals. Um, with that, are you doing blood work? I'm assuming of some sort. Maybe. >> Yeah, we do. Labs. Teo, look, att. A variety of different things. We don't currently do Hormonal therapy. We've got some partners in town that do that. We decided we wanted to stay in our lane and, you know, really kind of stick to what we do. And so we refer out any hormonal deficiencies. Whether you need some testosterone growth hormone is from other things. Estrogen, progesterone, whatever s. So we're not doing that currently, and we don't see ourselves doing that because we have some great partners that you a much better job than we would ever do. So I'm also a big believer in stay in your lane, refer out, make friends do whatever is best for the patient of the client. Um, because there's that pays way more dividends them than trying to dio everything you know all announce. Unless you have it already in the house that has a specialty. Yeah. No, that >> makes sense to find a way to facilitate and where you can excel. Um >> and I >> know you got a lot of the time crunch here. We have the wrap it up here for people listening. Where can we find more out about yourself? Where can we listen to you? What social media's are you on and one of those handles >> So instagram I'm under just my name Ed. Look, terra e d l e c a r a Facebook. Same thing. Just Ed. Look era Twitter and la Cara. Everything's just under Everclear. Really? Every Tuesday I do would be a far I call it BF our Tuesday I do kind of a lunch and learn fifteen twenty minutes on either a research article or protocol. If I got a question that was asked of me, I'll answer it on DH. That's an ongoing webinar. Every Tuesday I teach live be If our course is pretty much all over the world, you can go to my website at like keira dot com or d m e on any of the social media handles, and I'LL be happy to respond. Or you could just call my client body Launch Park City's dot com and give me a call >> and you're doing educational stuff that's on the B Afar Tuesday and your webinars well are those sign up websites for those, And if so, is it under your website and look era dot com? >> Uh, that's a great point. I really should have it home there. It's if you go on my social media you you'LL see it was all announced that I'm doing No, you know, whatever topic is I try to be on organized on it. I will put a link on my website. My website's getting redone right now, and so I put a link on there for be If our Tuesday under I have >> a whole >> be fr. It's called B F, our master class. It's my online BF our course on underneath there I'LL put a link. Tio might be a far Tuesdays >> gadget. Is there anything you wanna selfishly promote? Cause guys, that is an amazing resource. Everything he's talking about it it's pretty much goal anyway, You can hear more about where you work out any projects, anything that you'd be wanting others to get into or listen to that you're working on that you see, working on the future or anything you just want to share. >> I'm always looking at, you know, teaching you no more courses like love teaching. I love, you know, doing live courses. Esso I currently teach to be if our course I teach the instrument assist. Of course. Programming. I teach a, uh, a cupping movement assessment and Fossen course. So any of those things you can see on my website where I'm gonna be next? We're doing some cool research on recovery with a pretty well known pretty, well known uh, brand which I hope we'll be able to announce at some point. It looks like the afar Mike increased oxygenation in muscle tissue even with the cuffs on. So it looks like it looks like from preliminary studies that the body adapts to the hypoxic environment and my increased oxygenation while the cuffs are on. I'll know more about that soon, but that's pretty exciting. I'Ll release that when I when I can you know? Other than that if I can help anybody else or help a friend that's in Dallas that wants to see me while I'm here. I practiced from seven. AM almost till seven. P. M. Every night on. I'm also happy to consult either Via Skype. Er, >> um, by phone. >> Gosh. And you smart tools use a dotcom. Correct for the CFR cuffs. >> Yeah, you can either. Go toe. Yeah, you can go to my side of you connect with me. If you want to get it, I can get you. Uh, we could probably do a promotional discount. And if you want to get some cups but smart tools plus dot com is is the mother ship where we're at a Cleveland our We're promoting both our live courses and are and our material in our cups. >> I can vouch them firsthand. They're awesome. You guys do Amazing work and information you guys put out is really killer. I mean, the amount of stuff I've been able to learn from you guys and what you've been doing has helped me a ton. It's really, really awesome to see you guys promoting the education that way. And thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. It was a blast talking Teo again. Guys, go follow him on Instagram. He's got some amazing stuff anyway. You can read about him, learn about him and what he's doing. Please do so and thank you. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it a lot of spreading the word and talking to like minded individuals and making friends. You know that I have kind of this ongoing theme of, you know, it's all about, You know, there's two things that we can control in our life. It's really what we put in our mouths and how much we move and people like you that air getting the word out. This information is really important that we've got to take control of our health. We're the only ones responsible. So let's do it. And then if there's other people that can help you reach out to them and and get the help you need. >> Well, that's great. All right, guys. Thank you for listening. Really Appreciate it. And thank you once again