>> I've got Madhav Mekala here with me, commerce architect at PepsiCo Madhav welcome to the program. >> Thank you Lisa. >> So we're going to be talking about the solution that you implemented that helped with the global supply chain. So let's talk first about your role, commerce architect. Help me understand that a little bit better. >> So Frito-Lay PepsiCo is pretty big. It's a conglomerate of multiple product lines. So I worked for Frito-Lay, which is basically all the salty snacks and then we have a Quaker products as well in our portfolio. So I oversee all the architecture for all the commercial IoT solutions in the FNA portfolio. >> Got it all the commercial lines. So we all know the last 18 months major challenges with the global supply chain component shortages, we've seen a huge increase in the cost of raw materials, limited labor, but you guys actually started to tackle this challenge before the pandemic happened. So talk to me about the catalyst that PepsiCo, what you saw to modernize field service and supply chain application. >> Yeah, so we have a pretty old system that our field force, our frontline users are using. So we have a world-class supply chain system where we go into the stores and place orders and deliver products throughout the U.S. And then we penetrate, I think, more than 95% of the households with our products. So we need to have a robust supply chain as well as a good frontline sales application, to be able to manage the orders, and be able to deliver the products, right? So the system that we have is almost 20 year old system running on a very outdated technology. We've been trying to replace that for a while now. And finally, we started this early last year to completely replace the solution with a brand new IPhone based app. And then that gives our frontline the ability to go place orders, do deliveries to retail execution in the store like check-in check-out, bill displays. There are so much functionality that our RSRs or frontline users do in the stores and this app enables them to do much more efficiently. >> And we're going to break into that, but you mentioned you had a 20 year old technology. Talk to me about some of the challenges that that likely presented to those frontline workers. >> Yeah. I mean, there are multiple challenges for one, we cannot enable new business models. So business wants to come up with new ideas for, to be able to implement in the field, but with our system being so old, it's so hard to implement anything on that one. And then even the physical device is not scaling. We had a lot of memory issues, so it's time for it to kind of retire, but also the technology we use the 3G technology is retiring pretty soon at the next year. So we were definitely need to move to a new solution. And this is one of the must things we have to do right away. So that's where we started the project and we are in pilot phase right now. >> What would have been some of those negative consequences, had you not undertaken the effort? I imagine from a competitive perspective, knowing how much competition is out there, what would some of those challenges have been if this had persisted? >> Yeah, so one is the stability of the application, right? So the frontline users have to spend more time because the app is not stable, the current one. So that reduces the efficiency of our Salesforce. Right? And then on the other hand, we also not able to put new features or new business models enable new business models on top of the existing ones. So we are losing out on some of them because of our outdated system. So that's one thing we want to solve with the new one. >> So this is really critical to really evolve PepsiCo's business at, at its baseline, right? >> That's true. Yeah. It is very critical application that we are building and this will enable us to do a lot more things in future. And we can come up with new ideas, including like virtual reality or connecting to multiple systems. There are so many new ideas that we want to enable once we have this in place. >> Awesome. Talk to me about why Couchbase and then tell us more about, you started to talk a little bit about the solution, but let's go ahead and dig in and unpack the actual solution that you implemented. >> Yeah. So this is, eh, we call it an ERP and a mobile device because it has so much functionality as a company Frito-Lay, we have been over a hundred years in this business, right? We have so many optimized process that we have that kind of led to some digility in the system because we want to do in a particular way, because that's the best way to do it as part of our business process. So what we're trying to do here is take that business process and also provide an app that will enhance it and then connect to more, more systems. So that's what we are trying to do here. And then on top of that one, we will replace all the existing peripherals that we use with the new technology, like Bluetooth and all so that, they are much more faster and they slot more productive for our frontline force. >> Sounds like a lot of sales folks are going to to be a lot more productive. Talk to me about where Couchbase is as an integral component to this new system. >> Yeah. So one of the key requirements for this app is offline mode. What that means is one of our other salesforce who go from our system from our DC to other stores, should be able to run the whole day without any major disruption, even if they're not connected, let's say because when they go into big stores, typically there's no connection there all metal boxes. So the cellular reception is not there, but most of our work that we do from our frontline is within the store. So it has to be a full offline where we have to have all the data within the device and we should be able to place orders, create inventory that records or adjust inventory, and then create invoices. All the majority of the things that we do are in the store and they should be able to do without the connection. So that's where we explored multiple options and kind of zeroed in on Couchbase where we bring all the data into Couchbase database on the device and then sync it when there is connection, but there's no connection, we still have all the data on the device and we can go do all of our duties in the stores without any issues, even if it is not connected. >> So the sales folks can be in the stores with their mobile device, doing all the transactions that they need to do with the stores, regardless of if there's connectivity. Talk to me about what happens when they get back to connectivity in that and the Couchbase database sync. >> Yeah. And the other big thing we want is instant connect. I mean, when there's connectivity, we want instant sync with the backend, right? If there's new data that comes, we need that in the device. At the same time, if I place an order, I want to send it back immediately to our backend systems so that our fulfillment starts for those. So that's very critical when we have a lot of cutoff times for our orders. So we need order as soon as we've placed to be going into the backend systems. So what happens when it gets connected, as soon as the sales folks come out of the store or when, within the story they could connectivity the Couchbased technology that we are using using the sync gateway immediately syncs the data back and forth if there's any new data that's available. So that is key for us in this particular app. >> So our transactions happening in real time or near real time. >> Yeah. So the data flow happens in real time when there's connectivity, but when it is not connected still, it doesn't have any issue with the actual transactions with the RSR that can go complete anything that. >> Got it. Okay. So there's no impediment there. In fact, it's a productivity enhancer. It sounds like for all of those sales folks out on the frontline. Tell us so millions of documents go through the system, tens of billions of dollars. Talk to me about the volume of data and the actual monetary value that's traversing the system. >> Yeah. It's huge, again, this is kind of the lifeline of the company. The sales are always the life of any company, right? So most of the sales for Frito-Lay goes through our system and we're talking anywhere between hundreds of thousands of documents that flow through back and forth between the Couch between the device and the server. So there's a lot of master data that comes like products price from customers, all that information that comes from the backend to the device and all the orders inventory and everything that gets created on the device gets flown sync back to the server. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very complex system. And also from the volume perspective, it's huge. So we had to build a massive infrastructure on the backend to be able to handle all this. One of the key feature is again, we have this massive data that we need to sync to the devices, but each device should only get the portion of the data that they want because a particular Salesforce only goes to a small set of 20 stores, let's say. So the data that we sync to that device is only for those 20 stores. So that's the key here. So Couchbase allows us to do that. The Couchbase sync, where we can subset the data into different portions and only send the data that is relevant for a particular device. >> So then from a, from a latency perspective, it must be pretty low latency, pretty fast to be able to get this data back to the device and to the sales person that is in the middle of a transaction. >> Yes. I mean, it's pretty, the sink is very fast. The Couchbase sync, especially user's web sockets. And we do continuous replicators where if I complete an order, the next instant it's on the server. So it's, it's we observed the speeds improved a lot. So the technology that we are using uses syncs for a long, long time compared to Couchbase, and that's another productivity gain for our Salesforce. >> What were some of the differentials? You mentioned some of the technology requirements that PepsiCo had in rearchitecting, the infrastructure, but what were some of the key technology differentiators that really made Couchbase stand out as the obvious choice? >> Yeah, so we, when we started this project, we all know the sink is the key for this whole project, because we thought the data going back and forth, we cannot really build a robust offline app. So we looked at multiple options, other providers that are doing the sync. And we also looked at building our own sink, in-house using APIs, but then we did lots of performance testing across all the options that we had at that time. And then Couchbase came above all of them pretty handily. So obviously we can coach base takes care of the sync, and then we can focus on our business process. So we can go build all the business process and not worry about how to build the syncing engine. And then that is itself a big effort. So that's what Couchbase provided us saying a instant sync engine. And then we were able to focus more on our, the app applicants, the frontline application, the sensor application. >> And those business processes. Let's talk about some of the business outcomes. We've mentioned a few already in our conversation, increased in productivity, the sales forces increased in that as well. But I imagine there's a lot of benefits for the end-user customer in terms of being able to get the transactions completed faster. What are some of those positive business outcomes that PepsiCo is seeing as a result of implementing Couchbase? >> Yeah. So you hit on a couple of them that the sync times are definitely a big factor where that will directly give more time for the sales folks to go either go to most stores, or even if they go to the existing stores, they can do more, spend more time with the customer merchandising and making sure everything is correct. So that's one, also the new app users connect with a lot of new peripherals that are not available on the previous platform. Also, the, our folks are very enthusiastic about using a new app, right? So it's like coming into the 21st century for them using such an old lab for a long time. So a lot of things that they see, they can see the images of the bags while ordering, which was not a feature earlier. Some of them are small, but they make a huge impact on our users. So, yeah, I mean, and then this is just a start that we are doing. And then once we are able to completely implement this one, we have a lot more going into, in future. I was just talking about, we can do virtual reality or show them how to sell using virtual reality. We can show a display to a store manager saying, 'Hey, I want to put a display here. And this is how it looks,' they can show it on the phone directly, than just explaining and showing some paper images. So there's a lot of possibilities. >> A lot of improvements to the customer experience. It sounds like, it sounds like adoption is quite high for your folks who are used to 20 year old technology, probably being very excited that they have a modern app. But talk to me a little bit about the appetite of the organization to continue modernizing the application infrastructure and presuming going from older technology to that 21st century, like you talked about. >> Yeah. So in other parts, we are already modernized some of these. So we have been on the journey for the last four, five years building multiple digital platforms. So one of the examples I can give is when COVID hit, there's a lot of disruption for everybody, for the consumers, so they are not able to find the products in the stores, a lot people are afraid to go to the stores to even buy products. So we reacted very quickly and opened a consumer website called snacks.com, which Pepsi never sold it to consumer directly. We always go through our stores, but the first time we open the consumer channel and Couchbase powered some of it for the backend purpose. So this is not a mobile app, it's just a desktop app, but we already have been on the digital transmission journey, even before we quickly turn into COVID for the snacks.com. And similarly, we are, doing this for our retail execution, portion of it using this project. So, and then we'll be continuing to do this going forward to enable a lot of functionality for I mean, for all of our sales, as well as supply chain and other systems, so that we can be more efficient. We can be more elastic saying if there is more demand, our backend should be able to handle all that, which was not the case before. So now we've built a state of the art backend system on cloud. So there's a lot of transmission, digital transmission going on within PepsiCo. And I'm really proud to be part of this project so that we took this to the next level. And then this is just a start. We can do a lot more. >> Right? This is just the beginning. That sounds like a great transformation for a historied company that we all, everybody knows PepsiCo and all of its products. But it sounds like when the pandemic hit, you had the infrastructure in place to be able to pivot quickly to launch that direct to consumer, which of course consumers, patience has been quite thin in the last year and a half. Talk to me a little bit about the impact to the overall organization as a result of being able to, to get more direct with those consumers. >> Yeah. So till now, again, we are the business model is we sell to the stores and then go customer. So we'd never get a direct sense of what consumer liking is. I mean, we get through some surveys and stuff, but we don't have a direct channel to the consumer, which this particular project enabled us snacks.com. So we know the consumer behavior, how they buying patterns, browsing patterns, which ones they like and including with geography and all so we learned a lot from the consumer behavior point of view for the project. And then we kept on enhancing. So one new thing we introduced was called Multipack where the consumers can come and pick, make their own Multipacks basically. They can say, okay, I need these many of this particular product, this particular product and make their Multipack and we ship them the customized Multipack. And it was, such a huge hit that we are not able to even fulfill them so much demand was there for that one, so we had to revamp and then get back. And now it's a huge thing on all the snacks.com platform. So all of this is possible because we had a digital platform underneath that supports this kind of innovation. So the new business models are just coming to life in within weeks or even few months and that's what we will be trying to do with the new platform that we're building for this app as well, where we'll bring in lot of new business models on top of we have already. >> Excellent, a lot of transformation it sounds like at PepsiCo in the last couple of years, I love the customization, that personalization route that you're going and I think that's going to be a huge hit for consumers. And as you said, there's a lot of demand , Madhav thank you for joining me today, talking about how you are modernizing the field service and supply chain application, the impact it's making for end users for your customers and for the sales folks. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much Lisa. >> From McCalla. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this Cube conversation.

>>I've got Mada Mykola here with me, commerce architect at PepsiCo Mada. Welcome to the program, >>Lisa. >>So we're going to be talking about the solution that you implemented, um, that helped with the global supply chain. So let's talk though, first about your role commerce architect. Help me understand that a little bit better. >>So Frito, uh, PepsiCo is pretty big. It's a conglomerate of multiple product lines. So I worked for Frito-Lay, which is basically all the salty snacks. And then we have, uh, the Quaker products as well in our portfolio. So I oversee all the architecture for all the commercial IOT solutions, uh, in the CFNA portfolio. >>Got it all the commercial lines. So we all know the last 18 months major challenges with the global supply chain component shortages. We've seen a huge increase in the cost of raw materials, um, limited labor, but you guys actually started to tackle this challenge before the pandemic happened. So talk to me about the catalyst that PepsiCo, what you saw to modernize field service and supply chain application. >>Yeah, so we have a pretty old system that our field force, our frontline users are using. So we have a world-class supply chain system where we go into the stores and place orders and deliver products, the us, and then we penetrate, I think, more than 95% of the households with our products. So we need to have a robust supply chain as well as a good frontline sales application, to be able to manage the orders and be able to deliver the products. Right? So the system that we have is almost 20 year old system running on a video data technology. There've been trying to replace that for a while now. And finally, we started this, uh, early last year to completely replace the solution with a brand new iPhone based app. Uh, and then that gives our frontline the ability to go place orders, do deliveries to retail execution in the store, like checking checkout, build displays. There are so much functionality that our RSRs or Franklin users do in the stores and this app enables them to do much more efficient. >>And we're going to break into that, but you mentioned you had a 20 year old technology. Talk to me about some of the challenges that that likely presented to those frontline workers. >>Yeah. I mean, there are multiple challenges for one, we cannot enable new business models. So business wants to come up with new ideas for, um, to be able to implement in the field, but with our system being so old, it's so hard to implement anything on that one. And then even the physical device is not scaling. We had a lot of memory issues, so it's time for it to kind of retire. And also the technology we use the 3g technologies retiring pretty soon at the next year. So we were definitely need to move to a new solution. And this is one of the most things we have to do, but right away. So that's where we started the project and we are in pilot phase right now. >>What would have been some of those negative consequences? Had you not undertaken the effort? I imagine from a competitive perspective, knowing how much competition is out there, what would some of those challenges have been if this had persisted? >>Yeah. So one is the stability of the application, right? So, uh, the frontline users have to spend more time because the app is not stable, the current one. So that reduces the efficiency of our Salesforce. Right? And then on the other hand, we also not able to put new features or new business models enable new business models on top of the existing ones. So we are losing out on some of them because of our outdated system. So that's one thing we want to solve with the new one. >>So this is really critical to really evolve PepsiCo's business at, at its baseline. Right? >>That's true. Yeah. It is very critical application that we're building and this will enable us to do a lot more things in future. And we can come up with new ideas, including like virtual reality or connecting to multiple systems. There are so many new ideas that we want to enable once we have this in place. >>Awesome. Talk to me about why Couchbase, and then tell us more about, you started to talk a little bit about the solution, but let's go ahead and dig in and unpack the actual solution that you implemented. >>Yeah. So this is, eh, we call it an ERP and a mobile device because it has so much functionality as a company three. Totally. We have been, uh, over a hundred years, uh, in this business, right. We have so many, uh, optimized process, uh, that we have that kind of led to some digital in the system because we want to do in a particular way, because that's the best way to do it as part of our business process. So what we're trying to do here is take that business process and also provide an app that will enhance it and then connect to more, more systems. So that's what we're trying to do here. And then on top of that one, we will replace all the existing peripherals that we use with the new technology, like Bluetooth and also, so that, uh, the, they are much more faster, and it's a lot more productive for our frontline force. >>Sounds like a lot of sales folks are going to be a lot more productive. Talk to me about where Couchbase is as an integral component to this new system. >>Yeah. So one of the key requirements for this app is an offline mode. What that means is, uh, one of our Salesforce who go from our system, uh, from our DC to all the stores, should be able to run the whole day without any, uh, major disruption, even if they're not connected, let's say because when they go into big stores, typically there's no connection. There are metal boxes. So the cellular reception is not there, but most of our work that we do from our frontline is within the store. So it has to be a full offline where we have to have all the data within the device, and we should be able to place artists create inventory that records or adjust inventory, and then create invoices. All the majority of the things that we do are in the store and they should be able to do without, um, the kind of connection. So that's where we explored multiple options and kind of zeroed in on Couchbase where we bring all the data into Couchbase based database on the device, and then sync it when there is connection, but there's no connection. We still have all the data on the device and we can go do all of our duties in the stores without any issues, even if it is not connected. >>So the sales folks can be in the stores with their mobile device, doing all the transactions that they need to do with the stores, regardless of if there's connectivity. Talk to me about what happens when they get back to connectivity in that and the Couchbase database sync. >>Yeah. And, uh, the other big thing we want is instant connect. I mean, when there's connectivity, we want instant sync with the backend, right? If there's new data that comes, we'll need that in the device at the same time, if I place an order, I want to send it back immediately to our backend systems for that our fulfillment stacks for those. So that's very critical when we have a lot of cutoff times for our artists. So we need artists as soon as we've placed to be going to the backend systems. So what happens when it gets connected, as soon as the sales folks come out of the store, or when within the store, they got connectivity, these codebase technology that we are using using the sync gateway immediately syncs the data back and forth. Uh, if there is any new data that's available. So that is key for us in this particular app. >>So our transactions happening in, in real time or near real time. >>Yeah. So the data flow happens in real time when this kind of gritty, but when it is not connected still, it doesn't have any issue with the actual transactions with the artists that can go complete anything that they would >>Got it. Okay. So there's no impediment there. In fact, it's a productivity enhancer. It sounds like for all of those sales folks out on the frontline TA. So, so millions of documents go through the system, tens of billions of dollars. Talk to me about the volume of data and the actual monetary value. That's traversing the system. >>Yeah. It's huge. Again, this is kind of weak. It's the lifeline of the company. The seals are always the life of any company, right? So most of the goes through our system. And, um, we're talking anywhere between hundreds of thousands of dollars that flow through back and forth, uh, between, uh, between the device and the server. So there's a lot of master data that comes like products place from customers, all that information that comes from the backend to the device and all the orders, inventory, and everything that gets created on the device gets flown back to the subtler. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very complex system. And also from the volume perspective, it's huge. So we had to build a massive infrastructure on the backend to be able to handle all this. One of the key feature is again, we have this massive data that we need to sync to the devices, but each device should only get the portion of the data that they want because a particular Salesforce only goes to a small set of 20 stores, let's say. So the data that we seem to that device is only for those 20 stores. So that's the key here. So Couchbase allows us to do that. The codebase sync, where we can subset the data into different portions and only send the data that is relevant for a particular device. >>So then from a, from a latency perspective, it must be pretty low latency, pretty fast to be able to get this data back to the device and to the sales person that is in the middle of a transaction. >>Yes. Uh, I mean, it's pretty, the sink is very fast. The Cosby's sink, especially user's web sockets. And we do continuous replicators where if I complete an order, the next instant it's on the stairwell. So it's, it's we observed the speeds improve a lot. So the technology that we are using users are things for a long, long time compared to code based. And that's another productivity gain for our Salesforce. >>What were some of the differentials? You mentioned some of the technology requirements that PepsiCo had in rearchitecting, the infrastructure, but what were some of the key technology differentiators that really made Couchbase stand out as the obvious choice? >>Yeah, so we, when we started this project, we all know the sink is the key for this whole project, because we thought that data going back and forth, we cannot really build a robust, um, uh, offline app. So we looked at multiple, uh, options, other providers that are doing the sink. And we also looked at building our own sink. Uh, in-house using API APIs, but then we did lots of, uh, performance testing across all the, uh, options that we had at that time. And then Ottawa cost base came above. All of them are pretty handle it. So obviously we can coach base takes care of the sink, and then we can focus on our business process. So we can go build all the business process and not worry about how we build a single. And then that is itself a big effort. So that's what caught me is prior to seeing instant sync engine. And then we were able to focus more on our, uh, the app application, the frontline application, the sales application, >>And those business processes. Let's talk about some of the business outcomes. We've mentioned a few already in our conversation, increased in productivity. The sales forces increased in that as well, but I imagine there's a lot of benefits for the end-user customer in terms of being able to get the transactions completed faster. What are some of those positive business outcomes that PepsiCo is seeing as a result of implementing Couchbase? >>Yeah. So you hit on a couple of them when the sink times are definitely a big factor with that will directly give more time for the sales folks to go either go to most stores or even they go to the existing stores, they can do more, spend more time with the customer merchandising and making sure everything is correct. So that's one also the new app users, uh, connect with a lot of new peripherals that are not available on the previous platform. Um, also the, uh, our folks are very, uh, enthusiastic about using a new app, right? So it's like coming into the 21st century for them using such an old lab for a long time. So a lot of things that they see, they can see the images of the bags while ordering, which was not a feature earlier. Some of them are small, but they make a huge impact on our users. >>Um, so yeah, I mean, and then this is just a start that we are doing. And then once we are able to completely implement this one, we have a lot more going into, in future. I was just talking about, we can do virtual reality or show them how to sell using what filter do. We can show a display to a store manager saying, Hey, I want to put a display here. And this is how it looks. They can show it on the phone that Dan just explaining and showing some paper images. So there's a lot of possibilities, >>A lot of improvements to the customer experience. It sounds like, it sounds like adoption is quite high for your folks who are used to 20 year old technology, probably being very, uh, excited that they have a modern app. But talk to me a little bit about the appetite of the organization to continue modernizing the application infrastructure and presuming going from older technology to that 21st century, like you talked about. >>Yeah. So in other parts, we are already modernized some of these. So we have been on the journey for the last four or five years building multiple digital platforms. So one of the example I can give is when COVID hit, there's a lot of disruption for everybody, for the consumers. So they are not able to find the products in the stores, but people are afraid to go to the stores to even buy products. So we reacted very quickly and opened a consumer of a website called snacks or calm, which Pepsi never sold it to the directly. We always go through our stores, but the first time we open the consumer channel and base powered some of it for the backend purpose. So this is not a mobile app, it's just a desktop app, but we already have been on the district has mission journey even before we quickly turned into COVID for the snacks.com. >>And similarly, we are, you are doing this for our retail execution portion of it, um, using this product. So, and then we'll be continuing to do this going forward, or to enable a lot of functionality for, uh, I mean, for all of our sales, as well as, uh, supply chain and other systems, so that we can be more efficient. We can be more elastic saying if there is more demand, our backend should be able to handle all that, uh, which was not the case before extra. Now we built a state of the art backend system on cloud. So there's a lot of transmission, digital transmission going on within PepsiCo. And I'm really proud to be part of this project so that we took this to the next level. And then this is just a start. We can do a lot more, >>Right? This is just the beginning. That sounds like a great transformation for a history company that we all, everybody knows PepsiCo and all of its products. But it sounds like when the pandemic hit, you had the infrastructure in place to be able to pivot quickly to launch that direct to consumer, which of course consumers, patients has been quite thin in the last year and a half. Talk to me a little bit about the impact to the overall organization as a result of being able to, to get more direct with those consumers. >>Yeah. So till now, again, we are, the business model is we sell to the stores and then go to the customer. So we'd never get a direct, uh, sense of what consumer, uh, liking is. I mean, we get through some surveys and stuff, but we don't have a direct channel with the consumer, which this particular product enabled us next.com. So we know the consumer behavior, how they, um, buying patterns, browsing patterns, which ones they like and including with geography. And also we learned a lot from a consumer behavior point of view for the project. And then we kept on enhancing. So one new thing we introduced was called multipack where the consumers can come and make their own market practices. They can say, okay, I need this many of this particular product, this product per I can make that multipack. And we ship them the customized market back. >>And it was such a huge hit that we are not able to even fulfill them so much demand was there for that one. So we had to revamp and then get back. And now it's a huge thing on our snacks that complex. So all of this is possible because we had a digital platform underneath that supports this kind of innovation. So the new business models are just coming to life in within weeks or even few months. And that's what we will be trying to do with the new platform that could billing for this app as well, where we'll bring in a lot of new business models. We have >>Excellent, a lot of, uh, transformation. It sounds like at PepsiCo in the last couple of years, I'd love the customization, that personalization route that you're going. I think that's going to be a huge hit for consumers. And as you said, there's a lot of demand letter. Thank you for joining me today, talking about how you are modernizing the field service and supply chain application, the impact it's making for end users for your customers and for the sales folks. We appreciate your time. >>Thank you so much >>From out of McCullough. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation.

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE. Covering your Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> And welcome back to our coverage here on the CUBE Red Hat Summit 2019. We're at the BCEC in Beantown, Boston, Massachusetts playing host this week to some 9000 strong attendees, pack keynotes. Just a great three days of programming here and educational sessions. Stu Miniman and I'm John Walls. We're joined by Mike Piech, who's the VP and general manager of Middleware at Red Hat. Mike, good to see you today. >> Great to be back. >> And Mark Little, VP of engineering Middleware at Red Hat. Mark, Good to see you as well, sir. >> You too. >> Yeah. First of, let's just talk about your ideas at the show here. Been here for a few days. As we've seen on the keynote stage, wide variety of first off, announcements and great case studies, great educational sessions. But your impressions of what's going on and some of the announcements we've heard about this week. >> Well, sure. I mean definitely some very big announcements with RHEL 8 and OpenShift 4. So as Middleware we're a little bit more in sort of gorilla mode here while some of the bigger announcements take a lot of the limelight. But nevertheless those announcements and the advances that they represent are very important for us as Middleware. Particularly OpenShift 4 as sort of the next layer up from OpenShift which the developers sort of touch and feel and live and breathe on a daily basis. We are the immediate beneficiaries of much of the advances in OpenShift and so that's something that, we as the Middleware guys sort of make real for the enterprise application developer. >> I'd say, probably for me, building on that in a way, one of the biggest announcements, one of the biggest surprises is gotta be the first keynote where we had Satya from Microsoft on stage with Jim announcing the collaboration that we're doing. I never believed that would ever happen and that's, that's fantastic. Has a benefit for Middleware as well but just for Red Hat as a whole. Who would've thought it? >> John: Who would have thought it, right? Yeah, we actually just had Marco Bill-Peter on and he was talking about, he's like "Look, we've actually had some of our support people up in Redmond now for a couple of years." And we had Chris Wright on earlier and he says "You know, sometimes we got to these shows and you get the big bang announcement. It's like, well, really we're working incrementally along the way and open source you can watch it. Sure sometimes you get the new chipset or there's a new this or that. But you know, it's very very small things." So in the spirit of that, maybe, you know, give us the updates since last time we got together. What's happening in the Middleware space as you said. If we build up the stack, you know, we got RHEL 8, we got OpenShift 4 and you're sitting on top. >> Yeah. Well one aspect that's an event like this makes clear in almost a reverse sort of way. We put a lot of effort particularly in Mark's team in getting to a much more frequent and more incremental release cycle and style, right. So getting away from sort of big bang releases every year, couple of years, to a much more agile incremental again sort of regime of rolling out functionality. Now, one of the downsides of that is that you don't have these big grand product announcements to make a big deal about in the same way as RHEL just did with 8 for example. So we need to rethink how we sort of (Laughs) >> absence the sort of big .0 releases, you know how we sort of batch up interesting news and roll it out at a large event like this. Now one of the things that we have been working on is our application environment narrative. Right now, the whole idea of the story here is that many people talk about Cloud-Native and about having lot's of different capabilities and services in a cloud environment. And as we've sort of gone through the, particularly the last year or so, it's really become apparent from what our customers tell us and from what we really see as the opportunities in the cloud-native world. The value that we bring is engineering all these pieces together, right? So that it's not simply a list of these disparate, disconnected, independent services but rather Middleware in the world of cloud native re-imagined. It is capabilities that when engineered together in the right way they make for this comprehensive, unified, cohesive environment within which our customers can develop applications and run those applications. And for the developer, you get developer productivity and then at runtime, you're getting operational reliability. So there really is a sort of a dual-sided value proposition there. And this notion of Middleware engineered together for the cloud is what the application environment idea is all about. >> Yeah. I'd add kinda one of the things that ties into that which has been big for us at least at summit this year is an effort that we kicked off or we announced two months ago called Quakers and as you all know a lot of what we do within Middleware, within Red Hat is based on Java and Java is still the dominant language in the enterprise but it's been around for 20 years. It developed in a pre-cloud era and that made lots of assumptions on the way in which the Java language and the JVM on which it runs would develop which aren't necessarily that conducive for running, in a cloud environment, a hybrid cloud environment and certainly public cloud environment based on Linux containers and Kubernetes. So, we've been working for a number of years in the upstream open JDK community to try and make Java much more cloud-native itself. And Quakers kind of builds on that. It essentially is what we call a kub-native approach where we optimize all of the Middleware stack upfront to work really really well in Kubernetes and specifically on OpenShift. And it's all Java though, that's the important thing. And now if people look into this they'll find that we're showing performance figures and memory utilization that is on a per with some of the newer languages like Go for instance, very very fast. Typically your boot time has gone from seconds to tens of milliseconds. And people who have seen it demonstrated have literally been blown away cause it allows them to leverage the skills that they've had invested in their employees to learn Java and move to the cloud without telling them "You guys are gonna have to learn a completely new language and start from scratch" >> All right, so Mark, if I get it right cause we've been at the Kubernetes show for a bunch of years but this is, you're looking at kinda the application side of what's happening in those Kubernetes environment >> Mark: Yeah. So many times we've talked about the platforms and the infrastructure down but it's the the art piece on top. Super important. I know down the DevZone people were buzzing around all the Quaker stuff. What else for people that are you know, looking at that kinda cloud-native containerization space? What other areas that they should be looking at when it comes to your space? >> Well, again, tying into the up environment thing, hopefully, you know, you'll have heard of knative and Istio. So knative is, to put it in a quick sentence is essentially an enabler for serverless if you like. It's where we're spinning containers really really quickly based on events. But really any serverless platform lives and dies based on the services in which your business logic can then rely upon. Do I have a messaging service there? Do I have a transaction service or a database service? So, we've been working with, with Google on knative and with Microsoft on knative to ensure that we have a really good story in OpenShift but tying it into our Middleware suite as well. So, many of our Middleware products are now knative enabled if you like. The second thing is, as I mentioned, Istio which is a sidecar approach. I won't go into details on that but again Istio the aim behind that is to remove from the application developer some of the non-functional business logic that they had to put in there like "How do I use a messaging service? How do I secure this endpoint and push it down the infrastructure?" So the security servers, the messaging servers, the cashing servers et cetera. They move out of the business logic and they move into Istio. But from our point of view, it's our security servers that we've been working on for years, it's our transactional servers that we've been working on for years. So, these are bullet-proof implementations that we have just made more cloud-native by embedding them in a way in Istio and like I said, enabling them with knative. >> I think we'd mentioned that Chris Wright was on earlier and one of the things he talked about was, this new data-eccentric focus and how, that's at the core so much of what enterprise is doing these days. The fact that whenever speed is distributed, they are and you've got so many data inputs come in from, so to a unified user trying to get their data the way they wanna see it. You might want it for a totally other reason, right? I'm just curious, how does that influence or how has that influenced your work in terms of making sure that transport goes smoothly? Because you do have so much more to work with in a much more complex environment for multiple uses that are unique, right? >> (Mike) Yeah. >> It's not all the same. >> Huge, huge impact for sure. The whole idea of decomposing an application into a much larger number of much smaller pieces than was done in the past has many benefits probably one of the most significant being the ability to make small changes, small incremental changes and afford a much more trial and error approach to innovation versus more macro-level planning waterfall as they call it. But one of the implications of that is now you have a large number of entities. Whether they be big or small, there's a large number of them running within the estate. And there's the orchestration of them and the interconnection of them for sure but it's a n-squared relationship, right. The more these entities you have, the more potential connections between each of them you have to somehow structure and manage and ensure are being done securely and so on. So that has really driven the need for new ways of tying things together, new ways essentially of integration. It has definitely amplified the need for disciplines, EPI management for example. It has driven a lot of increase demand for an event-driven approach where you're streaming in realtime and distributing events to many receivers and dealing with things asynchronously and not depending on round-trip times for everything to be consistent and so on. So, there's just a myriad of implications there that are very detailed technical-level drive some of the things that we're doing now. >> Yeah, I'll just add that in terms of data itself, you've probably heard this a number of times, data is king. Everything we do is based on data in one way or another, So we as Red Hat as a whole and Middleware specifically, we've had a very strong data strategy for a long time. Just as you've got myriad types of data, you can't assume that one way of storing that data is gonna be right for every type of data that you've got. So, we've worked through the integration efforts on ensuring that no sequel data stores, relational data stores^, in-memory data caching and even the messaging services as a whole is a way of sto^ring data in transit, that allows you to, in some ways it allows you to actually look at it in an event-driven way and make intelligent decisions. So that's a key part of what anybody should do if they are in the enterprise space. That's certainly what we're doing because at the end of the day people are building these apps to use that data. >> Well, gentlemen, I know you have another engagement. We're gonna cut you loose but I do wanna say you're the first guests to get applause. (guests laugh) >> From across all the way there. People at home can't hear but, so congratulations. You've been well received already. >> I think they're clearly tuned in to the renaissance of the job in here. >> Yes. >> Thank you both. >> Thanks for the time. >> Mark: Thanks so much. >> We appreciate that. Back with more, we are watching a Red Hat summer 2019 coverage live on the CUBE. (Upbeat music)