hi everybody welcome back to re invent 2022. this is thecube's exclusive coverage we're here at the satellite set it's up on the fifth floor of the Venetian Conference Center and this is part of the global startup program the AWS startup showcase series that we've been running all through last year and and into this year with AWS and featuring some of its its Global Partners Ed wallson series the CEO of chaos search many times Cube Alum and Kevin Miller there's also a cube Alum vice president GM of S3 at AWS guys good to see you again yeah great to see you Dave hi Kevin this is we call this our Super Bowl so this must be like your I don't know uh World Cup it's a pretty big event yeah it's the World Cup for sure yeah so a lot of S3 talk you know I mean that's what got us all started in 2006 so absolutely what's new in S3 yeah it's been a great show we've had a number of really interesting launches over the last few weeks and a few at the show as well so you know we've been really focused on helping customers that are running Mass scale data Lakes including you know whether it's structured or unstructured data we actually announced just a few just an hour ago I think it was a new capability to give customers cross-account access points for sharing data securely with other parts of the organization and that's something that we'd heard from customers is as they are growing and have more data sets and they're looking to to get more out of their data they are increasingly looking to enable multiple teams across their businesses to access those data sets securely and that's what we provide with cross-count access points we also launched yesterday our multi-region access point failover capabilities and so again this is where customers have data sets and they're using multiple regions for certain critical workloads they're now able to to use that to fail to control the failover between different regions in AWS and then one other launch I would just highlight is some improvements we made to storage lens which is our really a very novel and you need capability to help customers really understand what storage they have where who's accessing it when it's being accessed and we added a bunch of new metrics storage lens has been pretty exciting for a lot of customers in fact we looked at the data and saw that customers who have adopted storage lens typically within six months they saved more than six times what they had invested in turning storage lens on and certainly in this environment right now we have a lot of customers who are it's pretty top of mind they're looking for ways to optimize their their costs in the cloud and take some of those savings and be able to reinvest them in new innovation so pretty exciting with the storage lens launch I think what's interesting about S3 is that you know pre-cloud Object Store was this kind of a niche right and then of course you guys announced you know S3 in 2006 as I said and okay great you know cheap and deep storage simple get put now the conversations about how to enable value from from data absolutely analytics and it's just a whole new world and Ed you've talked many times I love the term yeah we built chaos search on the on the shoulders of giants right and so the under underlying that is S3 but the value that you can build on top of that has been key and I don't think we've talked about his shoulders and Giants but we've talked about how we literally you know we have a big Vision right so hard to kind of solve the challenge to analytics at scale we really focus on the you know the you know Big Data coming environment get analytics so we talk about the on the shoulders Giants obviously Isaac Newton's you know metaphor of I learned from everything before and we layer on top so really when you talk about all the things come from S3 like I just smile because like we picked it up naturally we went all in an S3 and this is where I think you're going Dave but everyone is so let's just cut the chase like so any of the data platforms you're using S3 is what you're building but we did it a little bit differently so at first people using a cold storage like you said and then they ETL it up into a different platforms for analytics of different sorts now people are using it closer they're doing caching layers and cashing out and they're that's where but that's where the attributes of a scale or reliability are what we did is we actually make S3 a database so literally we have no persistence outside that three and that kind of comes in so it's working really well with clients because most of the thing is we pick up all these attributes of scale reliability and it shows up in the clients environments and so when you launch all these new scalable things we just see it like our clients constantly comment like one of our biggest customers fintech in uh Europe they go to Black Friday again black Friday's not one days and they lose scale from what is it 58 terabytes a day and they're going up to 187 terabytes a day and we don't Flinch they say how do you do that well we built our platform on S3 as long as you can stream it to S3 so they're saying I can't overrun S3 and it's a natural play so it's it's really nice that but we take out those attributes but same thing that's why we're able to you know help clients get you know really you know Equifax is a good example maybe they're able to consolidate 12 their divisions on one platform we couldn't have done that without the scale and the performance of what you can get S3 but also they saved 90 I'm able to do that but that's really because the only persistence is S3 and what you guys are delivering but and then we really for focus on shoulders Giants we're doing on top of that innovating on top of your platforms and bringing that out so things like you know we have a unique data representation that makes it easy to ingest this data because it's kind of coming at you four v's of big data we allow you to do that make it performant on s3h so now you're doing hot analytics on S3 as if it's just a native database in memory but there's no memory SSC caching and then multi-model once you get it there don't move it leverage it in place so you know elasticsearch access you know Cabana grafana access or SQL access with your tools so we're seeing that constantly but we always talk about on the shoulders of giants but even this week I get comments from our customers like how did you do that and most of it is because we built on top of what you guys provided so it's really working out pretty well and you know we talk a lot about digital transformation of course we had the pleasure sitting down with Adam solipski prior John Furrier flew to Seattle sits down his annual one-on-one with the AWS CEO which is kind of cool yeah it was it's good it's like study for the test you know and uh and so but but one of the interesting things he said was you know we're one of our challenges going forward is is how do we go Beyond digital transformation into business transformation like okay well that's that's interesting I was talking to a customer today AWS customer and obviously others because they're 100 year old company and they're basically their business was they call them like the Uber for for servicing appliances when your Appliance breaks you got to get a person to serve it a service if it's out of warranty you know these guys do that so they got to basically have a you know a network of technicians yeah and they gotta deal with the customers no phone right so they had a completely you know that was a business transformation right they're becoming you know everybody says they're coming a software company but they're building it of course yeah right on the cloud so wonder if you guys could each talk about what's what you're seeing in terms of changing not only in the sort of I.T and the digital transformation but also the business transformation yeah I know I I 100 agree that I think business transformation is probably that one of the top themes I'm hearing from customers of all sizes right now even in this environment I think customers are looking for what can I do to drive top line or you know improve bottom line or just improve my customer experience and really you know sort of have that effect where I'm helping customers get more done and you know it is it is very tricky because to do that successfully the customers that are doing that successfully I think are really getting into the lines of businesses and figuring out you know it's probably a different skill set possibly a different culture different norms and practices and process and so it's it's a lot more than just a like you said a lot more than just the technology involved but when it you know we sort of liquidate it down into the data that's where absolutely we see that as a critical function for lines of businesses to become more comfortable first off knowing what data sets they have what data they they could access but possibly aren't today and then starting to tap into those data sources and then as as that progresses figuring out how to share and collaborate with data sets across a company to you know to correlate across those data sets and and drive more insights and then as all that's being done of course it's important to measure the results and be able to really see is this what what effect is this having and proving that effect and certainly I've seen plenty of customers be able to show you know this is a percentage increase in top or bottom line and uh so that pattern is playing out a lot and actually a lot of how we think about where we're going with S3 is related to how do we make it easier for customers to to do everything that I just described to have to understand what data they have to make it accessible and you know it's great to have such a great ecosystem of partners that are then building on top of that and innovating to help customers connect really directly with the businesses that they're running and driving those insights well and customers are hours today one of the things I loved that Adam said he said where Amazon is strategically very very patient but tactically we're really impatient and the customers out there like how are you going to help me increase Revenue how are you going to help me cut costs you know we were talking about how off off camera how you know software can actually help do that yeah it's deflationary I love the quote right so software's deflationary as costs come up how do you go drive it also free up the team and you nail it it's like okay everyone wants to save money but they're not putting off these projects in fact the digital transformation or the business it's actually moving forward but they're getting a little bit bigger but everyone's looking for creative ways to look at their architecture and it becomes larger larger we talked about a couple of those examples but like even like uh things like observability they want to give this tool set this data to all the developers all their sres same data to all the security team and then to do that they need to find a way an architect should do that scale and save money simultaneously so we see constantly people who are pairing us up with some of these larger firms like uh or like keep your data dog keep your Splunk use us to reduce the cost that one and one is actually cheaper than what you have but then they use it either to save money we're saving 50 to 80 hard dollars but more importantly to free up your team from the toil and then they they turn around and make that budget neutral and then allowed to get the same tools to more people across the org because they're sometimes constrained of getting the access to everyone explain that a little bit more let's say I got a Splunk or data dog I'm sifting through you know logs how exactly do you help so it's pretty simple I'll use dad dog example so let's say using data dog preservability so it's just your developers your sres managing environments all these platforms are really good at being a monitoring alerting type of tool what they're not necessarily great at is keeping the data for longer periods like the log data the bigger data that's where we're strong what you see is like a data dog let's say you're using it for a minister for to keep 30 days of logs which is not enough like let's say you're running environment you're finding that performance issue you kind of want to look to last quarter in last month in or maybe last Black Friday so 30 days is not enough but will charge you two eighty two dollars and eighty cents a gigabyte don't focus on just 280 and then if you just turn the knob and keep seven days but keep two years of data on us which is on S3 it goes down to 22 cents plus our list price of 80 cents goes to a dollar two compared to 280. so here's the thing what they're able to do is just turn a knob get more data we do an integration so you can go right from data dog or grafana directly into our platform so the user doesn't see it but they save money A lot of times they don't just save the money now they use that to go fund and get data dog to a lot more people make sense so it's a creativity they're looking at it and they're looking at tools we see the same thing with a grafana if you look at the whole grafana play which is hey you can't put it in one place but put Prometheus for metrics or traces we fit well with logs but they're using that to bring down their costs because a lot of this data just really bogs down these applications the alerting monitoring are good at small data they're not good at the big data which is what we're really good at and then the one and one is actually less than you paid for the one so it and it works pretty well so things are really unpredictable right now in the economy you know during the pandemic we've sort of lockdown and then the stock market went crazy we're like okay it's going to end it's going to end and then it looked like it was going to end and then it you know but last year it reinvented just just in that sweet spot before Omicron so we we tucked it in which which was awesome right it was a great great event we really really missed one physical reinvent you know which was very rare so that's cool but I've called it the slingshot economy it feels like you know you're driving down the highway and you got to hit the brakes and then all of a sudden you're going okay we're through it Oh no you're gonna hit the brakes again yeah so it's very very hard to predict and I was listening to jassy this morning he was talking about yeah consumers they're still spending but what they're doing is they're they're shopping for more features they might be you know buying a TV that's less expensive you know more value for the money so okay so hopefully the consumer spending will get us out of this but you don't really know you know and I don't yeah you know we don't seem to have the algorithms we've never been through something like this before so what are you guys seeing in terms of customer Behavior given that uncertainty well one thing I would highlight that I think particularly going back to what we were just talking about as far as business and digital transformation I think some customers are still appreciating the fact that where you know yesterday you may have had to to buy some Capital put out some capital and commit to something for a large upfront expenditure is that you know today the value of being able to experiment and scale up and then most importantly scale down and dynamically based on is the experiment working out am I seeing real value from it and doing that on a time scale of a day or a week or a few months that is so important right now because again it gets to I am looking for a ways to innovate and to drive Top Line growth but I I can't commit to a multi-year sort of uh set of costs to to do that so and I think plenty of customers are finding that even a few months of experimentation gives them some really valuable insight as far as is this going to be successful or not and so I think that again just of course with S3 and storage from day one we've been elastic pay for what you use if you're not using the storage you don't get charged for it and I think that particularly right now having the applications and the rest of the ecosystem around the storage and the data be able to scale up and scale down is is just ever more important and when people see that like typically they're looking to do more with it so if they find you usually find these little Department projects but they see a way to actually move faster and save money I think it is a mix of those two they're looking to expand it which can be a nightmare for sales Cycles because they take longer but people are looking well why don't you leverage this and go across division so we do see people trying to leverage it because they're still I don't think digital transformation is slowing down but a lot more to be honest a lot more approvals at this point for everything it is you know Adam and another great quote in his in his keynote he said if you want to save money the Cloud's a place to do it absolutely and I read an article recently and I was looking through and I said this is the first time you know AWS has ever seen a downturn because the cloud was too early back then I'm like you weren't paying attention in 2008 because that was the first major inflection point for cloud adoption where CFO said okay stop the capex we're going to Opex and you saw the cloud take off and then 2010 started this you know amazing cycle that we really haven't seen anything like it where they were doubling down in Investments and they were real hardcore investment it wasn't like 1998 99 was all just going out the door for no clear reason yeah so that Foundation is now in place and I think it makes a lot of sense and it could be here for for a while where people are saying Hey I want to optimize and I'm going to do that on the cloud yeah no I mean I've obviously I certainly agree with Adam's quote I think really that's been in aws's DNA from from day one right is that ability to scale costs with with the actual consumption and paying for what you use and I think that you know certainly moments like now are ones that can really motivate change in an organization in a way that might not have been as palatable when it just it didn't feel like it was as necessary yeah all right we got to go give you a last word uh I think it's been a great event I love all your announcements I think this is wonderful uh it's been a great show I love uh in fact how many people are here at reinvent north of 50 000. yeah I mean I feel like it was it's as big if not bigger than 2019. people have said ah 2019 was a record when you count out all the professors I don't know it feels it feels as big if not bigger so there's great energy yeah it's quite amazing and uh and we're thrilled to be part of it guys thanks for coming on thecube again really appreciate it face to face all right thank you for watching this is Dave vellante for the cube your leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage we'll be right back foreign

>> From the CUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the Cube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> A better than expected earnings report in late August got people excited about Snowflake again, but the negative sentiment in the market is weighed heavily on virtually all growth tech stocks and Snowflake is no exception. As we've stressed many times the company's management is on a long term mission to dramatically simplify the way organizations use data. Snowflake is tapping into a multi hundred billion dollar total available market and continues to grow at a rapid pace. In our view, Snowflake is embarking on its third major wave of innovation data apps, while its first and second waves are still bearing significant fruit. Now for short term traders focused on the next 90 or 180 days, that probably doesn't matter. But those taking a longer view are asking, "Should we still be optimistic about the future of this high flyer or is it just another over hyped tech play?" Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. Snowflake's Quarter just ended. And in this breaking analysis we take a look at the most recent survey data from ETR to see what clues and nuggets we can extract to predict the near term future in the long term outlook for Snowflake which is going to announce its earnings at the end of this month. Okay, so you know the story. If you've been investor in Snowflake this year, it's been painful. We said at IPO, "If you really want to own this stock on day one, just hold your nose and buy it." But like most IPOs we said there will be likely a better entry point in the future, and not surprisingly that's been the case. Snowflake IPOed a price of 120, which you couldn't touch on day one unless you got into a friends and family Delio. And if you did, you're still up 5% or so. So congratulations. But at one point last year you were up well over 200%. That's been the nature of this volatile stock, and I certainly can't help you with the timing of the market. But longer term Snowflake is targeting 10 billion in revenue for fiscal year 2028. A big number. Is it achievable? Is it big enough? Tell you what, let's come back to that. Now shorter term, our expert trader and breaking analysis contributor Chip Simonton said he got out of the stock a while ago after having taken a shot at what turned out to be a bear market rally. He pointed out that the stock had been bouncing around the 150 level for the last few months and broke that to the downside last Friday. So he'd expect 150 is where the stock is going to find resistance on the way back up, but there's no sign of support right now. He said maybe at 120, which was the July low and of course the IPO price that we just talked about. Now, perhaps earnings will be a catalyst, when Snowflake announces on November 30th, but until the mentality toward growth tech changes, nothing's likely to change dramatically according to Simonton. So now that we have that out of the way, let's take a look at the spending data for Snowflake in the ETR survey. Here's a chart that shows the time series breakdown of snowflake's net score going back to the October, 2021 survey. Now at that time, Snowflake's net score stood at a robust 77%. And remember, net score is a measure of spending velocity. It's a proprietary network, and ETR derives it from a quarterly survey of IT buyers and asks the respondents, "Are you adopting the platform new? Are you spending 6% or more? Is you're spending flat? Is you're spending down 6% or worse? Or are you leaving the platform decommissioning?" You subtract the percent of customers that are spending less or churning from those that are spending more and adopting or adopting and you get a net score. And that's expressed as a percentage of customers responding. In this chart we show Snowflake's in out of the total survey which ranges... The total survey ranges between 1,200 and 1,400 each quarter. And the very last column... Oh sorry, very last row, we show the number of Snowflake respondents that are coming in the survey from the Fortune 500 and the Global 2000. Those are two very important Snowflake constituencies. Now what this data tells us is that Snowflake exited 2021 with very strong momentum in a net score of 82%, which is off the charts and it was actually accelerating from the previous survey. Now by April that sentiment had flipped and Snowflake came down to earth with a 68% net score. Still highly elevated relative to its peers, but meaningfully down. Why was that? Because we saw a drop in new ads and an increase in flat spend. Then into the July and most recent October surveys, you saw a significant drop in the percentage of customers that were spending more. Now, notably, the percentage of customers who are contemplating adding the platform is actually staying pretty strong, but it is off a bit this past survey. And combined with a slight uptick in planned churn, net score is now down to 60%. That uptick from 0% and 1% and then 3%, it's still small, but that net score at 60% is still 20 percentage points higher than our highly elevated benchmark of 40% as you recall from listening to earlier breaking analysis. That 40% range is we consider a milestone. Anything above that is actually quite strong. But again, Snowflake is down and coming back to churn, while 3% churn is very low, in previous quarters we've seen Snowflake 0% or 1% decommissions. Now the last thing to note in this chart is the meaningful uptick in survey respondents that are citing, they're using the Snowflake platform. That's up to 212 in the survey. So look, it's hard to imagine that Snowflake doesn't feel the softening in the market like everyone else. Snowflake is guiding for around 60% growth in product revenue against the tough compare from a year ago with a 2% operating margin. So like every company, the reaction of the street is going to come down to how accurate or conservative the guide is from their CFO. Now, earlier this year, Snowflake acquired a company called Streamlit for around $800 million. Streamlit is an open source Python library and it makes it easier to build data apps with machine learning, obviously a huge trend. And like Snowflake, generally its focus is on simplifying the complex, in this case making data science easier to integrate into data apps that business people can use. So we were excited this summer in the July ETR survey to see that they added some nice data and pick on Streamlit, which we're showing here in comparison to Snowflake's core business on the left hand side. That's the data warehousing, the Streamlit pieces on the right hand side. And we show again net score over time from the previous survey for Snowflake's core database and data warehouse offering again on the left as compared to a Streamlit on the right. Snowflake's core product had 194 responses in the October, 22 survey, Streamlit had an end of 73, which is up from 52 in the July survey. So significant uptick of people responding that they're doing business in adopting Streamlit. That was pretty impressive to us. And it's hard to see, but the net scores stayed pretty constant for Streamlit at 51%. It was 52% I think in the previous quarter, well over that magic 40% mark. But when you blend it with Snowflake, it does sort of bring things down a little bit. Now there are two key points here. One is that the acquisition seems to have gained exposure right out of the gate as evidenced by the large number of responses. And two, the spending momentum. Again while it's lower than Snowflake overall, and when you blend it with Snowflake it does pull it down, it's very healthy and steady. Now let's do a little pure comparison with some of our favorite names in this space. This chart shows net score or spending velocity in the Y-axis, an overlap or presence, pervasiveness if you will, in the data set on the X-axis. That red dotted line again is that 40% highly elevated net score that we like to talk about. And that table inserted informs us as to how the companies are plotted, where the dots set up, the net score, the ins. And we're comparing a number of database players, although just a caution, Oracle includes all of Oracle including its apps. But we just put it in there for reference because it is the leader in database. Right off the bat, Snowflake jumps out with a net score of 64%. The 60% from the earlier chart, again included Streamlit. So you can see its core database, data warehouse business actually is higher than the total company average that we showed you before 'cause the Streamlit is blended in. So when you separate it out, Streamlit is right on top of data bricks. Isn't that ironic? Only Snowflake and Databricks in this selection of names are above the 40% level. You see Mongo and Couchbase, they know they're solid and Teradata cloud actually showing pretty well compared to some of the earlier survey results. Now let's isolate on the database data platform sector and see how that shapes up. And for this analysis, same XY dimensions, we've added the big giants, AWS and Microsoft and Google. And notice that those three plus Snowflake are just at or above the 40% line. Snowflake continues to lead by a significant margin in spending momentum and it keeps creeping to the right. That's that end that we talked about earlier. Now here's an interesting tidbit. Snowflake is often asked, and I've asked them myself many times, "How are you faring relative to AWS, Microsoft and Google, these big whales with Redshift and Synapse and Big Query?" And Snowflake has been telling folks that 80% of its business comes from AWS. And when Microsoft heard that, they said, "Whoa, wait a minute, Snowflake, let's partner up." 'Cause Microsoft is smart, and they understand that the market is enormous. And if they could do better with Snowflake, one, they may steal some business from AWS. And two, even if Snowflake is winning against some of the Microsoft database products, if it wins on Azure, Microsoft is going to sell more compute and more storage, more AI tools, more other stuff to these customers. Now AWS is really aggressive from a partnering standpoint with Snowflake. They're openly negotiating, not openly, but they're negotiating better prices. They're realizing that when it comes to data, the cheaper that you make the offering, the more people are going to consume. At scale economies and operating leverage are really powerful things at volume that kick in. Now Microsoft, they're coming along, they obviously get it, but Google is seemingly resistant to that type of go to market partnership. Rather than lean into Snowflake as a great partner Google's field force is kind of fighting fashion. Google itself at Cloud next heavily messaged what they call the open data cloud, which is a direct rip off of Snowflake. So what can we say about Google? They continue to be kind of behind the curve when it comes to go to market. Now just a brief aside on the competitive posture. I've seen Slootman, Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake in action with his prior companies and how he depositioned the competition. At Data Domain, he eviscerated a company called Avamar with their, what he called their expensive and slow post process architecture. I think he actually called it garbage, if I recall at one conference I heard him speak at. And that sort of destroyed BMC when he was at ServiceNow, kind of positioning them as the equivalent of the department of motor vehicles. And so it's interesting to hear how Snowflake openly talks about the data platforms of AWS, Microsoft, Google, and data bricks. I'll give you this sort of short bumper sticker. Redshift is just an on-prem database that AWS morphed to the cloud, which by the way is kind of true. They actually did a brilliant job of it, but it's basically a fact. Microsoft Excel, a collection of legacy databases, which also kind of morphed to run in the cloud. And even Big Query, which is considered cloud native by many if not most, is being positioned by Snowflake as originally an on-prem database to support Google's ad business, maybe. And data bricks is for those people smart enough to get it to Berkeley that love complexity. And now Snowflake doesn't, they don't mention Berkeley as far as I know. That's my addition. But you get the point. And the interesting thing about Databricks and Snowflake is a while ago in the cube I said that there was a new workload type emerging around data where you have AWS cloud, Snowflake obviously for the cloud database and Databricks data for the data science and EML, you bring those things together and there's this new workload emerging that's going to be very powerful in the future. And it's interesting to see now the aspirations of all three of these platforms are colliding. That's quite a dynamic, especially when you see both Snowflake and Databricks putting venture money and getting their hooks into the loyalties of the same companies like DBT labs and Calibra. Anyway, Snowflake's posture is that we are the pioneer in cloud native data warehouse, data sharing and now data apps. And our platform is designed for business people that want simplicity. The other guys, yes, they're formidable, but we Snowflake have an architectural lead and of course we run in multiple clouds. So it's pretty strong positioning or depositioning, you have to admit. Now I'm not sure I agree with the big query knockoffs completely. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but snowflake, as we see in the ETR survey data is winning. So in thinking about the longer term future, let's talk about what's different with Snowflake, where it's headed and what the opportunities are for the company. Snowflake put itself on the map by focusing on simplifying data analytics. What's interesting about that is the company's founders are as you probably know from Oracle. And rather than focusing on transactional data, which is Oracle's sweet spot, the stuff they worked on when they were at Oracle, the founder said, "We're going to go somewhere else. We're going to attack the data warehousing problem and the data analytics problem." And they completely re-imagined the database and how it could be applied to solve those challenges and reimagine what was possible if you had virtually unlimited compute and storage capacity. And of course Snowflake became famous for separating the compute from storage and being able to completely shut down compute so you didn't have to pay for it when you're not using it. And the ability to have multiple clusters hit the same data without making endless copies and a consumption/cloud pricing model. And then of course everyone on the planet realized, "Wow, that's a pretty good idea." Every venture capitalist in Silicon Valley has been funding companies to copy that move. And that today has pretty much become mainstream in table stakes. But I would argue that Snowflake not only had the lead, but when you look at how others are approaching this problem, it's not necessarily as clean and as elegant. Some of the startups, the early startups I think get it and maybe had an advantage of starting later, which can be a disadvantage too. But AWS is a good example of what I'm saying here. Is its version of separating compute from storage was an afterthought and it's good, it's... Given what they had it was actually quite clever and customers like it, but it's more of a, "Okay, we're going to tier to storage to lower cost, we're going to sort of dial down the compute not completely, we're not going to shut it off, we're going to minimize the compute required." It's really not true as separation is like for instance Snowflake has. But having said that, we're talking about competitors with lots of resources and cohort offerings. And so I don't want to make this necessarily all about the product, but all things being equal architecture matters, okay? So that's the cloud S-curve, the first one we're showing. Snowflake's still on that S-curve, and in and of itself it's got legs, but it's not what's going to power the company to 10 billion. The next S-curve we denote is the multi-cloud in the middle. And now while 80% of Snowflake's revenue is AWS, Microsoft is ramping up and Google, well, we'll see. But the interesting part of that curve is data sharing, and this idea of data clean rooms. I mean it really should be called the data sharing curve, but I have my reasons for calling it multi-cloud. And this is all about network effects and data gravity, and you're seeing this play out today, especially in industries like financial services and healthcare and government that are highly regulated verticals where folks are super paranoid about compliance. There not going to share data if they're going to get sued for it, if they're going to be in the front page of the Wall Street Journal for some kind of privacy breach. And what Snowflake has done is said, "Put all the data in our cloud." Now, of course now that triggers a lot of people because it's a walled garden, okay? It is. That's the trade off. It's not the Wild West, it's not Windows, it's Mac, it's more controlled. But the idea is that as different parts of the organization or even partners begin to share data that they need, it's got to be governed, it's got to be secure, it's got to be compliant, it's got to be trusted. So Snowflake introduced the idea of, they call these things stable edges. I think that's the term that they use. And they track a metric around stable edges. And so a stable edge, or think of it as a persistent edge is an ongoing relationship between two parties that last for some period of time, more than a month. It's not just a one shot deal, one a done type of, "Oh guys shared it for a day, done." It sent you an FTP, it's done. No, it's got to have trajectory over time. Four weeks or six weeks or some period of time that's meaningful. And that metric is growing. Now I think sort of a different metric that they track. I think around 20% of Snowflake customers are actively sharing data today and then they track the number of those edge relationships that exist. So that's something that's unique. Because again, most data sharing is all about making copies of data. That's great for storage companies, it's bad for auditors, and it's bad for compliance officers. And that trend is just starting out, that middle S-curve, it's going to kind of hit the base of that steep part of the S-curve and it's going to have legs through this decade we think. And then finally the third wave that we show here is what we call super cloud. That's why I called it multi-cloud before, so it could invoke super cloud. The idea that you've built a PAS layer that is purpose built for a specific objective, and in this case it's building data apps that are cloud native, shareable and governed. And is a long-term trend that's going to take some time to develop. I mean, application development platforms can take five to 10 years to mature and gain significant adoption, but this one's unique. This is a critical play for Snowflake. If it's going to compete with the big cloud players, it has to have an app development framework like Snowpark. It has to accommodate new data types like transactional data. That's why it announced this thing called UniStore last June, Snowflake a summit. And the pattern that's forming here is Snowflake is building layer upon layer with its architecture at the core. It's not currently anyway, it's not going out and saying, "All right, we're going to buy a company that's got to another billion dollars in revenue and that's how we're going to get to 10 billion." So it's not buying its way into new markets through revenue. It's actually buying smaller companies that can complement Snowflake and that it can turn into revenue for growth that fit in to the data cloud. Now as to the 10 billion by fiscal year 28, is that achievable? That's the question. Yeah, I think so. Would the momentum resources go to market product and management prowess that Snowflake has? Yes, it's definitely achievable. And one could argue to $10 billion is too conservative. Indeed, Snowflake CFO, Mike Scarpelli will fully admit his forecaster built on existing offerings. He's not including revenue as I understand it from all the new stuff that's in the pipeline because he doesn't know what it's going to look like. He doesn't know what the adoption is going to look like. He doesn't have data on that adoption, not just yet anyway. And now of course things can change quite dramatically. It's possible that is forecast for existing businesses don't materialize or competition picks them off or a company like Databricks actually is able in the longer term replicate the functionality of Snowflake with open source technologies, which would be a very competitive source of innovation. But in our view, there's plenty of room for growth, the market is enormous and the real key is, can and will Snowflake deliver on the promises of simplifying data? Of course we've heard this before from data warehouse, the data mars and data legs and master data management and ETLs and data movers and data copiers and Hadoop and a raft of technologies that have not lived up to expectations. And we've also, by the way, seen some tremendous successes in the software business with the likes of ServiceNow and Salesforce. So will Snowflake be the next great software name and hit that 10 billion magic mark? I think so. Let's reconnect in 2028 and see. Okay, we'll leave it there today. I want to thank Chip Simonton for his input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our Editor in Chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Check it out for all the news. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch David.vallante@siliconangle.com. DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. And please do check out etr.ai, they've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis. (upbeat music)

>>As we said in our analysis of Dell's future, the transformation of Dell into Dell emc and now Dell Technologies has been one of the most remarkable stories in the history of the technology industry. After years of successfully integrated EMC and becoming VMware's number one distribution channel, the metamorphosis of Dell com culminated in the spin out of VMware from Dell and a massive wealth creation milestone pending, of course the Broadcom acquisition of VMware. So where's that leave Dell and what does the future look like for this technology powerhouse? Hello and welcome to the Cube's exclusive coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. My name is Dave Ante and I'll be hosting the program today In conjunction with the Dell Tech Summit. We'll hear from four of Dell's senior executives. Tom Sweet is the CFO of Dell Technologies. He's gonna share his views of the company's position and opportunities and answer the question, why is Dell good long term investment? >>Then we'll hear from Jeff Boudreau was the president of Dell's ISG business unit. He's gonna talk about the product angle and specifically how Dell is thinking about solving the multi-cloud challenge. And then Sam Grow Cot is the senior vice president of marketing's gonna come in the program and give us the update on Apex, which is Dell's as a service offering and a new edge platform called Project Frontier. By the way, it's also Cybersecurity Awareness Month, and we're gonna see if Sam has any stories there. And finally, for a company that's nearly 40 years old, Dell has some pretty forward thinking philosophies when it comes to its culture and workforce. And we're gonna speak with Jen Savira, who's Dell's chief Human Resource officer about hybrid work and how Dell is thinking about the future of work. We're gonna geek out all day and talk multi-cloud and edge and latency, but first, let's talk wallet. Tom Sweet cfo, and one of Dell's key business architects. Welcome back to the cube, >>Dave, it's good to see you and good to be back with you. So thanks for having me, Jay. >>Yeah, you bet. Tom. It's been a pretty incredible past 18 months. Not only the pandemic and all that craziness, but the VMware spin, you had to give up your gross margin binky as kidding, and, and of course the macro environment. I'm so sick of talking about the macro, but putting that aside for a moment, what's really remarkable is that for a company at your size, you've had some success at the top line, which I think surprised a lot of people. What are your reflections on the last 18 to 24 months? >>Well, Dave, it's been an incredible, not only last 18 months, but the whole transformation journey. If you think all the way back maybe to the LBO and forward from there, but, you know, stepping into the last 18 months, it's, you know, I, I think I remember talking with you and saying, Hey, you know, this scenario planning we did at the beginning of this pandemic journey was, you know, 30 different scenarios roughly, and none of which sort of panned out the way it actually did, which was a pretty incredible growth story as we think about how we helped customers, you know, drive workforce productivity, enabled their business model during the all remote work environment. That was the pandemic created. And couple that with the, you know, the, the rise then and the infrastructure spin as we got towards the tail end of the, of the pandemic coupled with, you know, the spin out of VMware, which culminated last November, as you know, as we completed that, which unlocked a pathway back to investment grade within unlocked, quite frankly shareholder value, capital allocation frameworks. It's really been a remarkable, you know, 18, 24 months. It's, it's never dull at Dell Technologies. Lemme put it that way. >>Well, well, I was impressed with you, Tom, before the leverage buyout and then what I've seen you guys navigate through is, is, is truly amazing. Well, let's talk about the challenging macro. I mean, I've been through a lot of downturns, but I've never seen anything quite like this with fed tightening and you're combating inflation, you got this recession looming, there's a bear market you got, but you got zero unemployment, you're rising wages, strong dollar, and it's very confusing. But it spending is, you know, it's somewhat softer, but it's still not bad. How are you seeing customers behave? How is Dell responding? >>Yeah, look, if you think about the markets we play in Dave, and we should start there as a grounding, you know, the, the total market, the core market that we think about is roughly 700 and, you know, 50 billion or so. If you think about our core IT services capability, you couple that with some of the, the growth initiatives that we're driving and the adjacent markets that that, that brings in, you're roughly talking a 1.4 to $1.5 trillion market opportunity, total addressable market. And so from from that perspective, we're extraordinarily bullish on where are we in the journey as we continue to grow and expand. You know, we have, we're number one share in just about every category that we plan, but yet when you look at that, you know, number one share in some of these, you know, our highest share position may be, you know, low thirties and maybe in the high end of storage you're at the upper end of thirties or 40%. >>But the opportunity there to continue to expand the core and, and continue to take share and outperform the market is truly extraordinary. So, so you step back and think about that, then you say, okay, what have we seen over the last number of months and quarters? It's been, you know, really great performance through the pandemic as, as you highlighted, we actually had a really strong first half of the year of our fiscal year 23 with revenue up 12% operating income up 12% for the first half. You know, what we talked about as you, if you might recall in our second quarter earnings, was the fact that we were starting to see softness. We had seen it in the consumer PC space, which is not a big area of focus for us in the sense of our, our total revenue stream, but we started to see commercial PC soften and we were starting to see server demand soften a bit and storage demand was, was holding quite frankly. >>And so we gave a a framework around guidance for the rest of the year as a, of what we were seeing. You know, the macro environment as you highlight it continues to be challenging. You know, if you look at inflation rates and the efforts by central banks across the globe to with through interest rate rise to press down and, and constrain growth and push down inflation, you couple that with supply chain challenges that continue principle, particularly in the ISG space. And then you couple that with the Ukraine war and the, and the energy crisis that that's created. And particularly in Europe, it's a pretty dynamic environment. And, but I'm confident, you know, I'm confident in the long term, but I do think that there is, you know, that there's navigation that we're going to have to do over the coming number of quarters, who knows quite how long, you know, to, to make sure the business is properly positioned and, you know, we've got a great portfolio and you're gonna talk to some of the team LA later on as you think your way through some of the solution capabilities we're driving what we're seeing around technology trends. >>So the opportunities there, there's some short term navigation that we're gonna need to do just to make sure that we address some of the, you know, some of the environmental things that we're seeing right >>Now. Yeah. And as a global company, of course you're converting local currencies back to appreciated dollars. That's, that's, that's another headwind. But as you say, I mean, that's math and you're navigating it. And again, I've seen a lot of downturns, but you know, the best companies not only weather the storm, but they invest in ways they that allow them to cut out, come out the other side stronger. So I wanna talk about that longer term opportunity, the relationship between the core, the the business growth. You mentioned the tam, I mean, even as a lower margin business, if, if you can penetrate that big of a tam, you could still throw off a lot of cash and you've got other levers to turn in potentially acquisitions and software. And, but so ultimately what gives you confidence in Dell's future? How should we think about Dell's future? >>Yeah, look, I, I think it comes down to we are extraordinarily excited about the opportunity over the long term digital transformation continues. I I am on numerous customer and CIO calls every week. Customers are continuing to invest in digital transformation and infrastructure to enable their business model. Yes, maybe it's gonna slow or, or pause or maybe they're not gonna invest quite at the same rate over the next number of quarters, but over the long term the needs are there. You look at what we're doing around the, the growth opportunities that we see, not only in our core space where we continue to invest, but also in the, what we call the strategic adjacencies. Things like 5G and modern telecom infrastructure as our, the telecom providers across the globe open up their, what a cl previous been closed ecosystems, you know, to open architecture. You think about, you know, what we're doing around the edge and the distribution now that we're seeing of compute and storage back to the edge given data gravity and latency matters. >>And so we're pretty bullish on the opportunity in front of us, you know, yes, we will and we're continuing to invest and you know, Jeff Boudreau talk about that I think later on in the program. So I'm excited about the opportunities and you look at our cash flow generation capability, you know, we are in, in, in normal times a, a cash flow generation machine and we'll continue to do so, You know, we've got a negative, you know, CCC in terms of, you know, how do we think about efficiency of working capital? And we look at our, you know, our capital allocation strategy, which has now returned, you know, somewhere in near 60% of our free cash flow back to shareholders. And so, you know, there's lots to, lots of reasons to think about why this, you know, we are a great sort of, I think value creation opportunity and a over the long term that the long term trends are with us, and I expect them to continue to be so, >>Yeah, and you guys, you, you, you do what you say you're gonna do. I mean, I said in my, in my other piece that I did recently, I think you guys put 46 billion on the, on the, on the balance sheet in terms of debt. That's down to I think 16 billion in the core, which that's quite remarking and that gives you some other opportunities. Give us your, your closing thoughts. I mean, you kind of just addressed why Dell is a good long term play, but I'll give you an opportunity to bring us home. >>Hey, Dave. Yeah, look, I, I just think if you look at the good, the market opportunity, the size and scale of Dell and how we think about the competitive advantages that we have, we com you know, if you look at, say we're a hundred billion revenue company, which we were a year, you know, last year, that as we reported roughly 60, 65 billion of that in the client, in in PC space, roughly, you know, 35 to 40 billion in the ISG or infrastructure space, those markets are gonna continue the opportunity to grow, share, grow at a premium to the market, drive, cash flow, drive, share gain is clearly there. You couple that with, you know, what we think the opportunity is in these adjacent markets, whether it's telecom, the edge, what we're thinking around data services, data management, you know, we, and you cut, you put that together with the long term trends around, you know, data creation and digital transformation. We are extraordinarily well positioned. We have the largest direct selling organization in in the technology space. We have the largest supply chain, our services footprint, you know, well positioned in my mind to take advantage of the opportunities as we move forward. >>Well Tom, really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. Good to see you again. >>Nice seeing you. Thanks Dave. >>All right. You're watching the Cubes exclusive behind the scenes coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. In a moment, I'll be back with Jeff Boudreau. He's the president of Dell's ISG Infrastructure Solutions Group. He's responsible for all the important enterprise business at Dell, and we're excited to get his thoughts, keep it right there. >>Welcome back to the cube's exclusive coverage of the Dell Technology Summit. I'm Dave Ante and we're going inside with Dell execs to extract the signal from the noise. And right now we're gonna dig into customer requirements in a data intensive world and how cross cloud complexities get resolved from a product development perspective and how the ecosystem fits in to that mosaic to close the gaps and accelerate innovation. And with me now as friend of the cube, Jeff Boudreau, he's the president of the Infrastructure Solutions Group, ISG at Dell Technologies. Jeff, always good to see you. Welcome. >>You too. Thank you for having me. It's great to see you and thanks for having me back on the cube. I'm thrilled to be here. >>Yeah, it's our pleasure. Okay, so let's talk about what you're observing from customers today. You know, we talk all the time about operating in a data driven multi-cloud world, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what does that all mean to you when you have to translate that noise into products that solve specific customer problems, Jeff? >>Sure. Hey, great question. And everything always starts with our customers. There are motivation, they're top of mind, everything we do, my leadership team and I spend a lot of time with our customers. We're listening, we're learning, we're really understanding their pain points, and we wanna get their feedback in regards to our solutions, both turn and future offerings, really ensure that we're aligned to meeting their business objectives. I would say from these conversations, I'd say customers are telling us several things. First, it's all about data for no surprise going back to your opening. And second, it's about the multi-cloud world. And I'd say the big thing coming from all of this is that both of those are driving a ton of complexity for our customers. And I'll unpack that just a bit, which is first the data. As we all know, data is growing at unprecedented rates with more than 90% of the world's data being produced in the last two years alone. >>And you can just think of that in it's everywhere, right? And so as it as the IT world shifts towards distributed compute to support that data growth and that data gravity to really extract more value from that data in real time environments become inherently more and more hybrid and more and more multi-cloud. Which leads me to the second key point that I've been hearing from our customers, which it's a multi-cloud world, not new news. Customers by default have multiple clouds running across multiple locations that's on-prem and off-prem, it's running at the edge and it's serving a variety of different needs. Unfortunately, for most of our CU customers, multi-cloud is actually added to their complexity. As we've discussed. It's been a lot more of multi-cloud by default versus multi-cloud by design. And if you really think about our customers, I mean, I, I, I've talking to 'EM all the time, you think about the data complexity, that's the growth and the gravity. >>You think about their infrastructure complexity shifting from central to decentralized it, you think about multi-cloud complexity. So you have these walled gardens, if you will. So you have multiple vendors and you have these multiple contracts that all creates operational complexity for their teams around their processes of their tools. And then you think about security complexity that that dries with the, just the increased tax service and the list goes on. So what are we seeing for our customers? They, what they really want from us, and what they're asking us for is simplicity, not complexity. The immediacy, not latency. They're asking for open and aligned versus I'd say siloed and closed. And they're looking for a lot more agility and not rigidity in what we do. So they really wanna simplify everything. They're looking for a simpler IT and a more agile it. And they want more control of their data, right? >>And so, and they want to extract more of the value to enrich their business or their customer engagements, which all sounds pretty obvious and we've probably all heard it a bunch, but it's really hard to achieve. And that's where I believe, and we believe as Dell that we, it creates a big opportunity for us to really help our customers as that great simplifier of it. We're already doing this today on just a couple quick examples. First is Salesforce. We've supported recently, we've supported their global expansion with a multi-cloud solution to help them drive their business growth. Our solution delivered a reliable and consistent IT experience. We go back to that complexity and it was across a very distributed environment, including more than 60 data centers, 230 countries and hundreds of thousands of customers. It really provided Salesforce with the flexibility of placing workloads and data in an environment based on the right service level. >>Objective things like cost complexity or even security compliance considerations. The second customer A is a big New England Patriot fan. And Dan, Dave, I know you are as well. Oh yeah, this one's near, near data to my heart, it's the craft group. We just created a platform to span all the businesses that create more, I'd say data driven, immersive, secure experience, which is allowing them to capture data at the edge and use it for real time insights for things like cyber resiliency, but also like safety of the facilities. And as being a PA fan like I am, did they truly are meeting us where we are in our seats on their mobile devices and also in the parking lot. So just keep that in mind next time you're there. The bottom line, everything we're doing is really to make it simpler for our customers and to help them get the most of their data. I'd say we're gonna do this, is it through a multi-cloud by design approach, which we talked a lot about with you and and others at Dell Tech world earlier this year, >>Right? And we had Salesforce on, actually at Dell Tech group. The craft group is interesting because, you know, when you get to the stadium, you know, everybody's trying to get, get, get out to the internet and, and, but then the experience is so much better if you can actually, you know, deal with that edge. So I wanna talk about complexity though. You got data, you got, you know, the, the edge, you got multiple clouds, you got a different operating model across security model, different. So a lot of times in this industry we solve complexity with more complexity and it's like a bandaid. So I wanna, I wanna talk to, to how you're innovating around simplicity in ISG to address this complexity and what this means for Dell's long term strategy. >>Sure, I'd love to. So first I, I'd like to state the obvious, which are our investments in our innovations really focused on advancing, you know, our, our our customers needs, right? So we are really, our investments are gonna be targeted. We, we believe customers can have the most value. And some of that's gonna be around how we create strategic partnerships as well connected to what we just spoke about. Much of the complexity of customers have or experiencing is in the orchestration and management of all the data in all these different places and customers, you know, they must be able to quickly deploy and operate across cloud environments. They need to increase their developer productivity, really enabling those developers that do what they do best, which is creating more value for their customers than for their businesses. Our innovation efforts are really focused on addressing this by delivering an open and modern IT architecture that allows customers to run and manage any workload in any cloud anywhere. >>Data lives we're focused on, also focused on consumption based solutions, which allow for a greater degree of simplicity and flexibility, which they're really asking for as well. The foundation for this is our software to define common storage layer, that common storage layer. You can think about this Dave, as our ias if you will. It underpins our data access in mobility across all data types and locations. So you can think private, public, telecom, colo, edge, and it's delivered in a secure, holistic, and consistent cloud experience through Apex. We are making a ton of progress to let you just to be, just to be clear, we've made headway in things like Project Alpine, which you're very well aware of. This is our storage as a service. We announce this back in in January, which brings our unique software IP from our flagship storage platform to all the major public clouds. >>Really delivering the best of both worlds, allowing our customers to take advantage of Dell's enterprise class data services and storage software, such as performance at scale, resiliency, efficiency and security. But in addition to that, we're leveraging the breadth of the public cloud services, right? They're on demand scaling capabilities and access to analytical services. So in addition, we're really, we're, we're on our way to win at the edge as well with Project Frontier, which reduces complexity at the edge by creating an open and secure software platform to help our customers simplify their edge operations, optimize their edge environments and investments, secure that edge environment as well. I believe you're gonna be discussing Project Frontier here with Sam Gro Crop, the very near future. So I won't give up too many more details there. And lastly, we're also scaling Apex, which, oh, well, shifting from our vision, really shifting from vision to reality and introducing several new Apex service offerings, which are coming to market over the next month or so. And the intent is really supporting our customers on their as a service transitions by modernize the consumption experience and providing that flexible as a service model. Ultimately, we're trying to help our customers achieve that multi-cloud by design to really simplify it and unlock the power of their data. >>So some good examples there. I I like to talk about the super Cloud as you, you know, you're building on top of the, you know, hyperscale infrastructure and you got Apex is your cloud, the common storage layer, you call it your is. And that's, that's a ingredient in what we call the super cloud out to the edge. You have to have a common platform there and one of the hallmarks of a cloud company. And as you become a cloud company, everybody's a cloud company ecosystem becomes really, really important in terms of product development and, and innovation. Matt Baker always loves to stress it's not a zero zero sum game. And, and I think Super Cloud recognizes that, that there's value to be built on top of other clouds and, and, and of course on top of your infrastructure so that your ecosystem can add value. So what role does the ecosystem play there? >>For me, it's, it's pretty clear. It's, it's, it's critical. I can't say that enough above the having an open ecosystem. Think about everything we just discussed, and I agree with your super cloud analogy. I agree with what Matt Baker had said to you, I would certain no one company can actually address all the pain points and all the issues and challenges our customers are having on their own, not one. I think customers really want and deserve an open technology ecosystem, one that works together. So not these close stacks that discourages interoperability or stifles innovation and productivity of our, of each of our teams. We del I guess have a long history of supporting open ecosystems that really put customers first. And to be clear, we're gonna be at the center of the multi-cloud ecosystem and we're working with partners today to make that a reality. >>I mean, just think of what we're doing with VMware. We continue to build on our first and best alliances with them in August at their VMware explorer, which I know you were at, we announced several joint engineering initiatives to really help customers more easily manage and gain value from their data and their infrastructure. For multi-cloud specifically, we strength our relationship with VMware and with Tansu as part of that. In addition, just a few weeks ago we announced our partnership with Red Hat to simplify our multi-cloud deployments for managing containerized workloads. I'd say, and using your analogy, I could think of that as our multicloud platform. So that's kind of our PAs layer, if you will. And as you're aware, we have a very long standing and strategic partnership with Microsoft and I'd say stay tuned. There's a lot more to come with them and also others in this multicloud space. >>Shifting a bit to some of the growth engines that my team's responsible for the edge, right? As you think about data being everywhere, we've established partnerships for the Edge as well with folks like PTC and Litmus for the manufacturing edge, but also folks like Deep North for the retail edge analytics and data management. Using your Supercloud analogy, Dave the sa, right? This is our Sasa, we've announced that we're collaborating, partnering with folks like Snowflake and, and there's other data management companies as well to really simplify data access and accelerate those data insights. And then given customers choice of where they'd like to have their IT and their infrastructure, we've we're expanding our colo partnerships as well with folks like eex and, and they're allowing us to broaden our availability of Apex, providing customers the flexibility to take advantage of those as a service offerings wherever it's delivered and where they can get the most value. So those are just some you can hear from me. I think it's critical not only for, for us, I think it's critical for our customers. I think it's been critical, critical for the entire, you know, industry as a whole to really have that open technology ecosystem as we work with our customers on our multi-cloud solutions really to meet their needs. We'll continue to collaborate with whoever customers choose and you know, and who they want us to do business with. So I'd say a lot more coming in that space. >>So it's been an interesting three years for you, just, just over three years now since you've been made the president of the IS isg. And so you had to dig in and, and it was obviously a strange time around the world, but, but you really had to look at, okay, how do we modernize the platform? How do we make it, you know, cloud first, You've mentioned the edge, we're expanding. So what are the big takeaways? What do you want customers and our audience to understand? Just some closing thoughts and if you could summarize. >>Sure. So I'd say first, you know, we discussed we're working in a very fast paced, ever-changing market with massive amounts of data that needs to be managed. It's very complex and our customers need help with that complexity. I believe that Dell Technologies is uniquely positioned to help as their multicloud champion. No one else can solve the breadth and depth of the challenges like we can. And we're gonna help our customers move forward when they basically moving from a multi-cloud by default, as we've discussed before, to multicloud by design. And I'm really excited for the opportunity to work with our customers to help them expand that ecosystem as they truly realize the future of it and, and what they're trying to accomplish. >>Jeff, thanks so much. Really appreciate your time. Always a pleasure. Go pats and we'll see you on the blog. >>Thanks Dave. >>All right, you're watching exclusive insight insights from Dell Technology Summit on the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>Hello everyone, this is Dave Lanta and you're watching the Cubes coverage of the Dell Technology Summit 2022 with exclusive behind the scenes interviews featuring Dell executive perspectives. And right now we're gonna explore Apex, which is Dell's as a service offering Dell's multi-cloud and edge strategies and the momentum around those. And we have news around Project Frontier, which is Dell's vision for its edge platform. And there's so much happening here. And don't forget it's cyber security Awareness month. Sam Grot is here, he's the senior vice president of marketing at Dell Technologies. Sam, always great to see you. How you doing? >>Always great to be here, Dave. >>All right, let's look at cloud. Everybody's talking about cloud Apex, multi-cloud, what's the update? How's it going? Where's the innovation and focal points of the strategy? >>Yeah, yeah. Look Dave, if you think back over the course of this year, you've really heard, heard us pivot as a company and discussing more and more about how multi-cloud is becoming a reality for our customers today. And when we listen and talk with our customers, they really describe multi-cloud challenges and a few key threads. One, the complexity is growing very, very quickly. Two, they're having a harder time controlling how their users are accessing the various different clouds. And then of course, finally the cloud costs are growing unchecked as well. So we, we like to describe this phenomenon as multi-cloud by design. We're essentially, organizations are waking up and seeing cloud sprawl around their organization every day. And this is creating more and more of those challenges. So of course at Dell we've got a strong point of view that you don't need to build multicloud by by default, rather it's multicloud by design where you're very intentional in how you do multicloud. >>And how we deliver multicloud by design is through apex. Apex is our modern cloud and our modern consumption experience. So when you think about the innovation as well, Dave, like we've been on a pretty quick track record here in that, you know, the beginning of this year we introduced brand new Apex backup services that provides that SAS based backup service. We've introduced or announced project outline, which is bringing our storage software, intellectual property from on-prem and putting it and running it natively in the public cloud. We've also introduced new Apex cyber recovery services that is simplifying how customers protect against cyber attacks. They can run an Amazon Azure, aw, I'm sorry, Amazon, aws, Azure or Google. And then, you know, we are really focused on this multi-cloud ecosystem. We announce key partnerships with SaaS providers such as Snowflake, where you can now access our information or our data from on-prem through the Snow Snowflake cloud. >>Or if needed, we can actually move the data to the Snowflake cloud if required. So we're continuing to build out that ecosystem SaaS providers. And then finally I would say, you know, we made a big strategic announcement just recently with Red Hat, where we're not only delivering new Apex container services, but we announce the strategic partnership to build jointly engineered solutions to address hybrid and multi-cloud solutions going forward. You know, VMware is gonna always continue to be a key partner of ours at the la at the recent VMware explorer we announced new Tansu integration. So, So Dave, I, I think in a nutshell we've been innovating at a very, very fast pace. We think there is a better way to do multi-cloud and that's multi-cloud by design. >>Yeah, we heard that at Dell Technologies world. First time I had heard that multi-cloud by design versus sort of default, which is great Alpine, which is sort of our, what we called super cloud in the making. And then of course the ecosystem is critical for any cloud company. VMware of course, you know, top partner, but the Snowflake announcement was very interesting Red Hat. So seeing that expand, now let's go out to the edge. How's it going with the edge expansion? There's gotta be new speaking of ecosystem, the edge is like a whole different, you know, OT type, that's right, ecosystem, that's telcos what and what's this new frontier platform all about? >>Yeah, yeah. So we've talked a lot about cloud and multi clouds, we've talked about private and hybrid cloud, we've talked about public clouds, clouds and cos, telcos, et cetera. There's really been one key piece of our multi-cloud and technology strategy that we haven't spent a lot of time on. And that's the edge. And we do see that as that next frontier for our customers to really gain that competitive advantage that is created from their data and get closer to the point of creation where the data lives. And that's at the edge. We see the edge infrastructure space growing very, very quickly. We see upwards of 300% year of year growth in terms of amount of data being created at the edge. That's almost 3000 exabytes of data by 2026. So just incredible growth. And the edge is not really new for Dell. We've been at it for over 20 years of delivering edge solutions. >>81% of the Fortune 100 companies in the US use Dell solutions today at the Edge. And we are the number one OEM provider of Edge solutions with over 44,000 customers across over 40 industries and things like manufacturing, retail, edge healthcare, and more. So Dave, while we've been at it for a long time, we have such a, a deep understanding of how our customers are using Edge solutions. Say the bottom line is the game has gotta change. With that growth that we talked about, the new use cases that are emerging, we've got to un unlock this new frontier for customers to take advantage of the edge. And that's why we are announcing and revealing Project Frontier. And Project Frontier in its most simplest form, is a software platform that's gonna help customers and organizations really radically simplify their edge deployments by automating their edge operations. You know, with Project Frontier organizations are really gonna be able to manage, OP, and operate their edge infrastructure and applications securely, efficiently and at scale. >>Okay, so it is, first of all, I like the name, it is software, it's a software architecture. So presumably a lot of API capabilities. That's right. Integration's. Is there hardware involved? >>Yeah, so of course you'll run it on Dell infrastructure. We'll be able to do both infrastructure orchestration, orchestration through the platform, but as well as application orchestration. And you know, really there's, there's a handful of key drivers that have been really pushing our customers to take on and look at building a better way to do the edge with Project Frontier. And I think I would just highlight a handful of 'em, you know, freedom of choice. We definitely see this as an open ecosystem out there, even more so at the Edge than any other part of the IT stack. You know, being able to provide that freedom of choice for software applications or I O T frameworks, operational technology or OT for any of their edge use cases, that's really, really important. Another key area that we're helping to solve with Project Frontier is, you know, being able to expect zero trust security across all their edge applications from design to deployment, you know, and of course backed by an end and secure supply chain is really, really important to customers. >>And then getting that greater efficiency and reliability of operations with the centralized management through Project Frontier and Zero Touch deployments. You know, one of the biggest challenges, especially when you get out to the far, far reach of the frontier is really IT resources and being able to have the IT expertise and we built in an enormous amount of automation helps streamline the edge deployments where you might be deploying a single edge solution, which is highly unlikely or hundreds or thousands, which is becoming more and more likely. So Dave, we do think Project Frontier is the right edge platform for customers to build their edge applications on now and certain, excuse me, certainly, and into the future. >>Yeah. Sam, no truck rolls. I like it. And you, you mentioned, you mentioned Zero trust. So we have Mother's Day, we have Father's Day. The kids always ask When's kids' day? And we of course we say every day is kids' day and every day should be cybersecurity awareness day. So, but we have cybersecurity awareness month. What does it mean for Dell? What are you hearing from customers and, and how are you responding? >>Yeah, yeah. No, there isn't a more prevalent pop of mind conversation, whether it's the boardroom or the IT departments or every company is really have been forced to reckon with the cybersecurity and ransom secure issues out there. You know, every decision in IT department makes impacts your security profile. Those decisions can certainly, positively, hopefully impact it, but also can negatively impact it as well. So data security is, is really not a new area of focus for Dell. It's been an area that we've been focused on for a long time, but there are really three core elements to cyber security and data security as we go forward. The first is really setting the foundation of trust is really, really important across any IT system. And having the right supply chain and the right partner to partner with to deliver that is kind of the foundation in step one. >>Second, you need to of course go with technology that is trustworthy. It doesn't mean you are putting it together correctly. It means that you're essentially assembling the right piece parts together. That, that coexist together in the right way. You know, to truly change that landscape of the attackers out there that are gonna potentially create risk for your environment. We are definitely pushing and helping to embrace the zero trust principles and architectures that are out there. So finally, while when you think about security, it certainly is not absolute all correct. Security architectures assume that, you know, there are going to be challenges, there are going to be pain points, but you've gotta be able to plan for recovery. And I think that's the holistic approach that we're taking with Dell. >>Well, and I think too, it's obviously security is a complicated situation now with cloud you've got, you know, shared responsibility models, you've got that a multi-cloud, you've got that across clouds, you're asking developers to do more. So I think the, the key takeaway is as a security pro, I'm looking for my technology partner through their r and d and their, you mentioned supply chain processes to take that off my plate so I can go plug holes elsewhere. Okay, Sam, put a bow on Dell Technology Summit for us and give us your closing thoughts. >>Yeah, look, I I think we're at a transformative point in it. You know, customers are moving more and more quickly to multi-cloud environments. They're looking to consume it in different ways, such as as a service, a lot of customers edge is new and an untapped opportunity for them to get closer to their customers and to their data. And of course there's more and more cyber threats out there every day. You know, our customers when we talk with them, they really want simple, consistent infrastructure options that are built on an open ecosystem that allows them to accomplish their goals quickly and successfully. And look, I think at Dell we've got the right strategy, we've got the right portfolio, we are the trusted partner of choice, help them lead, lead their, their future transformations into the future. So Dave, look, I think it's, it's absolutely one of the most exciting times in it and I can't wait to see where it goes from here. >>Sam, always fun catching up with you. Appreciate your time. >>Thanks Dave. >>All right. A Dell tech world in Vegas this past year, one of the most interesting conversations I personally had was around hybrid work and the future of work and the protocols associated with that and the mindset of, you know, the younger generation. And that conversation was with Jen Savira and we're gonna speak to Jen about this and other people and culture topics. Keep it right there. You're watching the cube's exclusive coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. Okay, we're back with Jen Vera, who's the chief human resource officer of Dell, and we're gonna discuss people, culture and hybrid work and leadership in the post isolation economy. Jen, the conversations that we had at Dell Tech World this past May around the new work environment were some of the most interesting and engaging that I had personally. So I'm really eager to, to get the update. It's great to see you again. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Thanks for having me Dave. There's been a lot of change in just a short amount of time, so I'm excited to, to share some of our learnings >>With you. I, I mean, I bet there has, I mean, post pandemic companies, they're trying, everybody's trying to figure out the return to work and, and what it looks like. You know, last May there was really a theme of flexibility, but depending, we talked about, well, millennial or not young old, and it's just really was mixed, but, so how have you approached the topic? What, what are your policies? What's changed since we last talked? You know, what's working, you know, what's still being worked? What would you recommend to other companies to over to you? >>Yeah, well, you know, this isn't a topic that's necessarily new to Dell technology. So we've been doing hybrid before. Hybrid was a thing. So for over a decade we've been doing what we called connected workplace. So we have kind of a, a history and we have some great learnings from that. Although things did change for the entire world. You know, March of 2020, we went from kind of this hybrid to everybody being remote for a while. But what we wanted to do is, we're such a data driven company, there's so many headlines out there, you know, about all these things that people think could happen will happen, but there wasn't a lot of data behind it. So we took a step back and we asked our team members, How do you think we're doing? And we asked very kind of strong language because we've been doing this for a while. >>We asked them, Do you think we're leading in the world of hybrid in 86% of our team members said that we were, which is great, but we always know there's nuance right behind that macro level. So we, we asked 'em a lot of different questions and we just went on this kind of myth busting journey and we decided to test some of those things. We're hearing about Culture Willow Road or new team members will have trouble being connected or millennials will be different. And we really just collected a lot of data, asked our team members what their experience is. And what we have found is really, you don't have to be together in the office all the time to have a strong culture, a sense of connection, to be productive and to have it really healthy business. >>Well, I like that you were data driven around it in the data business here. So, but, but there is a lot of debate around your culture and how it suffers in a hybrid environment, how remote workers won't get, you know, promoted. And so I'm curious, you know, and I've, and I've seen some like-minded companies like Dell say, Hey, we, we want you guys to work the way you wanna work. But then they've, I've seen them adjust and say, Well yeah, but we also want you to know in the office be so we can collaborate a little bit more. So what are you seeing at Dell and, and, and how do you maintain that cultural advantage that you're alluding to in this kind of strange, new ever changing world? >>Yeah, well I think, look, one approach doesn't fit all. So I don't think that the approach that works for Dell Technologies isn't necessarily the approach that works for every company. It works with our strategy and culture. It is really important that we listen to our team members and that we support them through this journey. You know, they tell us time and time again, one of the most special things about our culture is that we provide flexibility and choice. So we're not a mandate culture. We really want to make sure that our team members know that we want them to be their best and do their best. And not every individual role has the same requirements. Not every individual person has the same needs. And so we really wanna meet them where they are so that they can be productive. They feel connected to the team and to the company and engaged and inspired. >>So, you know, for, for us, it really does make sense to go forward with this. And so we haven't, we haven't taken a step back. We've been doing hybrid, we'll continue to do hybrid, but just like if you, you know, we talk about not being a mandate. I think the companies that say nobody will come in or you have to come in three days a week, all of that feels more limiting. And so what we really say is, work out with your team, work out with your role, workout with your leader, what really makes the most sense to drive things forward. >>I >>You were, so >>That's what we, you were talking before about myths and you know, I wanna talk about team member performance cuz there's a lot of people believe that if, if you're not in the office, you have disadvantages, people in the office have the advantage cuz they get FaceTime. Is is that a myth? You know, is there some truth to that? What, what do you think about that? >>Well, for us, you know, we look, again, we just looked at the data. So we said we don't wanna create a have and have not culture that you're talking about. We really wanna have an inclusive culture. We wanna be outcome driven, we're meritocracy. But we went and we looked at the data. So pre pandemic, we looked at things like performance, we looked at rewards and recognition, we looked at attrition rates, we looked at sentiment, Do you feel like your leader is inspiring? And we found no meaningful differences in any of that or in engagement between those who worked fully remote, fully in the office or some combination between. So our data would bust that myth and say, it doesn't, you don't have to be in an office and be seen to get ahead. We have equitable opportunity. Now, having said that, you always have to be watching that data. And that's something that we'll continue to do and make sure that we are creating equal opportunity regardless of where you work. >>And it's personal too, I think, I think some people can be really productive at home. I happen to be one that I'm way more productive in the office cause the dogs aren't barking. I have less distractions. And so I think we think, and, and I think the takeaway that in just in talking to, to, to you Jen and, and folks at Dell is, you know, whatever works for you, we're we're gonna, we're gonna support. So I I wanted to switch gears a little bit, talk about leadership and, and very specifically empathic leadership has been said to be, have a big impact on attracting talent, retaining talent, but, but it's hard to have empathy sometimes. And I know I saw some stats in a recent Dell study. It was like two thirds the people felt like their organization underestimates the people requirements. And I, I ask myself, I'm like, what am I missing? I hope, you know, with our folks, so especially as it relates to, to transformation programs. So how can human resource practitioners support business leaders generally, specifically as it relates to leading with empathy? >>I think empathy's always been important. You have to develop trust. You can have the best strategy in the world, right? But if you don't feel like your leader understands who you are, appreciates the the value that you bring to the company, then you're not gonna get very far. So I think empathetic leadership has always been part of the foundation of a trusting, strong relationship between a leader and a team member. But if I think we look back on the last two years, and I imagine it'll be even more so as we go forward, empathetic leadership will be even more important. There's so much going on in the world, politically, socially, economically, that taking that time to say you want your team members to see you as credible, that you and confident that you can take us forward, but also that, you know, and understand me as a human being. >>And that to me is really what it's about. And I think with regard to transformation that you brought up, I think one of the things we forget about is leaders. We've probably been thinking about a decision or transformation for months or weeks and we're ready to go execute, we're ready to go operationalize that thing. And so sometimes when we get to that point, because we've been talking about it for so long, we send out the email, we have the all hands and we just say we're ready to go. But our team members haven't always been on that journey for those months that we have. And so I think that empathetic moment to say, Okay, not everybody is on a change curve where I am. Let's take a pause, let me put myself in their shoes and really think about how we bring everybody along. >>You know, Jen, in the spirit of myth busting, I mean I'm one of those people who felt like that a business is gonna have a hard time, harder time fostering this culture of collaboration and innovation post isolation economy as they, they could pre covid. But you know, I noticed there's a, there's an announcement today that came across my desk, I think it's from Newsweek. Yes. And, and it's the list of top hundred companies recognized for employee motivation satisfaction. And it was really interesting because you, you always see, oh, we're the top 10 or the top hundred, But this says as a survey of 1.4 million employees from companies ranging from 50 to 10,000 employees. And it recognizes the companies that put respect, caring, and appreciation for their employees at the center of their business model. And they doing so have earned the loyalty and respect of the people who work for them. >>Number one on the list is Dell sap. So congratulations SAP was number two. I mean, there really isn't any other tech company on there, certainly no large tech companies on there. So I always see these lists, they go, Yeah, okay, that's cool, top a hundred, whatever. But top one in, in, in an industry where there's only two in the top is, is pretty impressive. And how does that relate to fostering my earlier skepticism of a culture of collaboration? So first of all, congratulations, you know, how'd you do it? And how are you succeeding in, in this new world? >>Well thanks. It does feel great to be number one, but you know, it doesn't happen by accident. And I think while most companies have a, a culture and a spouse values, we have ours called the culture code. But it's really been very important to us that it's not just a poster on the wall or or words on paper. And so we embed our culture code into all of our HR practices, that whole ecosystem from recognition of rewards to performance evaluation, to interviewing, to development. We build it into everything. So it really reflects who we are and you experience it every day. And then to make sure that we're not, you know, fooling ourselves, we ask all of our employees, do you feel like the behaviors you see and the experience you have every day reflects the culture code? And 94% of our team members say that, in fact it does. So I think that that's really been kind of the secret to our success. If you, if you listen to Michael Dell, he'll always say, you know, the most special thing about Dell is our culture and our people. And that comes through being very thoughtful and deliberate to preserve and protect and continue to focus on our culture. >>Don't you think too that repetition and, well first of all, belief in that cultural philosophy is, is important. And then kind of repeating, like you said, Yeah, it's not just a poster in the wall, but I remember like, you know, when we're kids, your parents tell you, okay, power positive thinking, do one to others as others, you know, you have others do it to you. Don't make the say you're gonna do some dumb things but don't do the same dumb things twice and you sort of fluff it up. But then as you mature you say, Wow, actually those were, >>They might have had a >>Were instilled in me and now I'm bringing them forward and, you know, paying it forward. But, but so i, it, it, my, I guess my, my point is, and it's kind of a point observation, but I'll turn it into a question, is isn't isn't consistency and belief in your values really, really important? >>I couldn't agree with you more, right? I think that's one of those things that we talk about it all the time and as an HR professional, you know, it's not the HR people just talking about our culture, it's our business leaders, it's our ceo, it's our COOs ev, it's our partners. We share our culture code with our partners and our vendors and our suppliers and, and everybody, this is important. We say when you interact with anybody at Dell Technologies, you should expect that this is the experience that you're gonna get. And so it is something that we talk about that we embed in, into everything that we do. And I think it's, it's really important that you don't just think it's a one and done cuz that's not how things really, really work >>Well. And it's a culture of respect, you know, high performance, high expectations, accountability at having followed the company and worked with the company for many, many years. You always respect the dignity of your partners and your people. So really appreciate your time Jen. Again, congratulations on being number one. >>Thank you so much. >>You're very welcome. Okay. You've been watching a special presentation of the cube inside Dell Technology Summit 2022. Remember, these episodes are all available on demand@thecube.net and you can check out s silicon angle.com for all the news and analysis. And don't forget to check out wikibon.com each week for a new episode of breaking analysis. This is Dave Valante, thanks for watching and we'll see you next time.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Organizations have considerable room to improve their performance without making expensive changes to their talent, their structure, or their fundamental business model. You don't need a slew of consultants to tell you what to do. You already know. What you need is to immediately ratchet up expectations, energy, urgency, and intensity. You have to fight mediocrity every step of the way. Amp it up and the results will follow. This is the fundamental premise of a hard-hitting new book written by Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake, and published earlier this year. It's called "Amp It Up, Leading for Hypergrowth "by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, "and Elevating Intensity." Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. At Snowflake Summit last month, I was asked to interview Frank on stage about his new book. I've read it several times. And if you haven't read it, you should. Even if you have read it, in this Breaking Analysis, we'll dig deeper into the book and share some clarifying insights and nuances directly from Slootman himself from my one-on-one conversation with him. My first question to Slootman was why do you write this book? Okay, it's kind of a common throwaway question. And how the heck did you find time to do it? It's fairly well-known that a few years ago, Slootman put up a post on LinkedIn with the title Amp It Up. It generated so much buzz and so many requests for Frank's time that he decided that the best way to efficiently scale and share his thoughts on how to create high-performing companies and organizations was to publish a book. Now, he wrote the book during the pandemic. And I joked that they must not have Netflix in Montana where he resides. In a pretty funny moment, he said that writing the book was easier than promoting it. Take a listen. >> Denise, our CMO, you know, she just made sure that this process wasn't going to. It was more work for me to promote this book with all these damn podcasts and other crap, than actually writing the book, you know. And after a while, I was like I'm not doing another podcast. >> Now, the book gives a lot of interesting background information on Slootman's career and what he learned at various companies that he led and participated in. Now, I'm not going to go into most of that today, which is why you should read the book yourself. But Slootman, he's become somewhat of a business hero to many people, myself included. Leaders like Frank, Scott McNealy, Jayshree Ullal, and my old boss, Pat McGovern at IDG, have inspired me over the years. And each has applied his or her own approach to building cultures and companies. Now, when Slootman first took over the reins at Snowflake, I published a Breaking Analysis talking about Snowflake and what we could expect from the company now that Slootman and CFO Mike Scarpelli were back together. In that post, buried toward the end, I referenced the playbook that Frank used at Data Domain and ServiceNow, two companies that I followed quite closely as an analyst, and how it would be applied at Snowflake, that playbook if you will. Frank reached out to me afterwards and said something to the effect of, "I don't use playbooks. "I am a situational leader. "Playbooks, you know, they work in football games. "But in the military, they teach you "situational leadership." Pretty interesting learning moment for me. So I asked Frank on the stage about this. Here's what he said. >> The older you get, the more experience that you have, the more you become a prisoner of your own background because you sort of think in terms of what you know as opposed to, you know, getting outside of what you know and trying to sort of look at things like a five-year-old that has never seen this before. And then how would you, you know, deal with it? And I really try to force myself into I've never seen this before and how do I think about it? Because at least they're very different, you know, interpretations. And be open-minded, just really avoid that rinse and repeat mentality. And you know, I've brought people in from who have worked with me before. Some of them come with me from company to company. And they were falling prey to, you know, rinse and repeat. I would just literally go like that's not what we want. >> So think about that for a moment. I mean, imagine coming in to lead a new company and forcing yourself and your people to forget what they know that works and has worked in the past, put that aside and assess the current situation with an open mind, essentially start over. Now, that doesn't mean you don't apply what has worked in the past. Slootman talked to me about bringing back Scarpelli and the synergistic relationship that they have and how they build cultures and the no BS and hard truth mentality they bring to companies. But he bristles when people ask him, "What type of CEO are you?" He says, "Do we have to put a label on it? "It really depends on the situation." Now, one of the other really hard-hitting parts of the book was the way Frank deals with who to keep and who to let go. He uses the Volkswagen tagline of drivers wanted. He says in his book, in companies there are passengers and there are drivers, and we want drivers. He said, "You have to figure out really quickly "who the drivers are and basically throw the wrong people "off the bus, keep the right people, bring in new people "that fit the culture and put them "in the right seats on the bus." Now, these are not easy decisions to make. But as it pertains to getting rid of people, I'm reminded of the movie "Moneyball." Art Howe, the manager of the Oakland As, he refused to play Scott Hatteberg at first base. So the GM, Billy Bean played by Brad Pitt says to Peter Brand who was played by Jonah Hill, "You have to fire Carlos Pena." Don't learn how to fire people. Billy Bean says, "Just keep it quick. "Tell him he's been traded and that's it." So I asked Frank, "Okay, I get it. "Like the movie, when you have the wrong person "on the bus, you just have to make the decision, "be straightforward, and do it." But I asked him, "What if you're on the fence? "What if you're not completely sure if this person "is a driver or a passenger, if he or she "should be on the bus or not on the bus? "How do you handle that?" Listen to what he said. >> I have a very simple way to break ties. And when there's doubt, there's no doubt, okay? >> When there's doubt, there's no doubt. Slootman's philosophy is you have to be emphatic and have high conviction. You know, back to the baseball analogy, if you're thinking about taking the pitcher out of the game, take 'em out. Confrontation is the single hardest thing in business according to Slootman but you have to be intellectually honest and do what's best for the organization, period. Okay, so wow, that may sound harsh but that's how Slootman approaches it, very Belichickian if you will. But how can you amp it up on a daily basis? What's the approach that Slootman takes? We got into this conversation with a discussion about MBOs, management by objective. Slootman in his book says he's killed MBOs at every company he's led. And I asked him to explain why. His rationale was that individual MBOs invariably end up in a discussion about relief of the MBO if the person is not hitting his or her targets. And that detracts from the organizational alignment. He said at Snowflake everyone gets paid the same way, from the execs on down. It's a key way he creates focus and energy in an organization, by creating alignment, urgency, and putting more resources into the most important things. This is especially hard, Slootman says, as the organization gets bigger. But if you do approach it this way, everything gets easier. The cadence changes, the tempo accelerates, and it works. Now, and to emphasize that point, he said the following. Play the clip. >> Every meeting that you have, every email, every encounter in the hallway, whatever it is, is an opportunity to amp things up. That's why I use that title. But do you take that opportunity? >> And according to Slootman, if you don't take that opportunity, if you're not in the moment, amping it up, then you're thinking about your golf game or the tennis match that's going on this weekend or being out on your boat. And to the point, this approach is not for everyone. You're either built for it or you're not. But if you can bring people into the organization that can handle this type of dynamic, it creates energy. It becomes fun. Everything moves faster. The conversations are exciting. They're inspiring. And it becomes addictive. Now let's talk about priorities. I said to Frank that for me anyway, his book was an uncomfortable read. And he was somewhat surprised by that. "Really," he said. I said, "Yeah. "I mean, it was an easy read but uncomfortable "because over my career, I've managed thousands of people, "not tens of thousands but thousands, "enough to have to take this stuff very seriously." And I found myself throughout the book, oh, you know, on the one hand saying to myself, "Oh, I got that right, good job, Dave." And then other times, I was thinking to myself, "Oh wow, I probably need to rethink that. "I need to amp it up on that front." And the point is to Frank's leadership philosophy, there's no one correct way to approach all situations. You have to figure it out for yourself. But the one thing in the book that I found the hardest was Slootman challenged the reader. If you had to drop everything and focus on one thing, just one thing, for the rest of the year, what would that one thing be? Think about that for a moment. Were you able to come up with that one thing? What would happen to all the other things on your priority list? Are they all necessary? If so, how would you delegate those? Do you have someone in your organization who can take those off your plate? What would happen if you only focused on that one thing? These are hard questions. But Slootman really forces you to think about them and do that mental exercise. Look at Frank's body language in this screenshot. Imagine going into a management meeting with Frank and being prepared to share all the things you're working on that you're so proud of and all the priorities you have for the coming year. Listen to Frank in this clip and tell me it doesn't really make you think. >> I've been in, you know, on other boards and stuff. And I got a PowerPoint back from the CEO and there's like 15 things. They're our priorities for the year. I'm like you got 15, you got none, right? It's like you just can't decide, you know, what's important. So I'll tell you everything because I just can't figure out. And the thing is it's very hard to just say one thing. But it's really the mental exercise that matters. >> Going through that mental exercise is really important according to Slootman. Let's have a conversation about what really matters at this point in time. Why does it need to happen? And does it take priority over other things? Slootman says you have to pull apart the hairball and drive extraordinary clarity. You could be wrong, he says. And he admits he's been wrong on many things before. He, like everyone, is fearful of being wrong. But if you don't have the conversation according to Slootman, you're already defeated. And one of the most important things Slootman emphasizes in the book is execution. He said that's one of the reasons he wrote "Amp It Up." In our discussion, he referenced Pat Gelsinger, his former boss, who bought Data Domain when he was working for Joe Tucci at EMC. Listen to Frank describe the interaction with Gelsinger. >> Well, one of my prior bosses, you know, Pat Gelsinger, when they acquired Data Domain through EMC, Pat was CEO of Intel. And he quoted Andy Grove as saying, 'cause he was Intel for a long time when he was younger man. And he said no strategy is better than its execution, which if I find one of the most brilliant things. >> Now, before you go changing your strategy, says Slootman, you have to eliminate execution as a potential point of failure. All too often, he says, Silicon Valley wants to change strategy without really understanding whether the execution is right. All too often companies don't consider that maybe the product isn't that great. They will frequently, for example, make a change to sales leadership without questioning whether or not there's a product fit. According to Slootman, you have to drive hardcore intellectual honesty. And as uncomfortable as that may be, it's incredibly important and powerful. Okay, one of the other contrarian points in the book was whether or not to have a customer success department. Slootman says this became really fashionable in Silicon Valley with the SaaS craze. Everyone was following and pattern matching the lead of salesforce.com. He says he's eliminated the customer service department at every company he's led which had a customer success department. Listen to Frank Slootman in his own words talk about the customer success department. >> I view the whole company as a customer success function. Okay, I'm customer success, you know. I said it in my presentation yesterday. We're a customer-first organization. I don't need a department. >> Now, he went on to say that sales owns the commercial relationship with the customer. Engineering owns the technical relationship. And oh, by the way, he always puts support inside of the engineering department because engineering has to back up support. And rather than having a separate department for customer success, he focuses on making sure that the existing departments are functioning properly. Slootman also has always been big on net promoter score, NPS. And Snowflake's is very high at 72. And according to Slootman, it's not just the product. It's the people that drive that type of loyalty. Now, Slootman stresses amping up the big things and even the little things too. He told a story about someone who came into his office to ask his opinion about a tee shirt. And he turned it around on her and said, "Well, what do you think?" And she said, "Well, it's okay." So Frank made the point by flipping the situation. Why are you coming to me with something that's just okay? If we're going to do something, let's do it. Let's do it all out. Let's do it right and get excited about it, not just check the box and get something off your desk. Amp it up, all aspects of our business. Listen to Slootman talk about Steve Jobs and the relevance of demanding excellence and shunning mediocrity. >> He was incredibly intolerant of anything that he didn't think of as great. You know, he was immediately done with it and with the person. You know, I'm not that aggressive, you know, in that way. I'm a little bit nicer, you know, about it. But I still, you know, I don't want to give into expediency and mediocrity. I just don't, I'm just going to fight it, you know, every step of the way. >> Now, that story was about a little thing like some swag. But Slootman talked about some big things too. And one of the major ways Snowflake was making big, sweeping changes to amp up its business was reorganizing its go-to-market around industries like financial services, media, and healthcare. Here's some ETR data that shows Snowflake's net score or spending momentum for key industry segments over time. The red dotted line at 40% is an indicator of highly elevated spending momentum. And you can see for the key areas shown, Snowflake is well above that level. And we cut this data where responses were greater, the response numbers were greater than 15. So not huge ends but large enough to have meaning. Most were in the 20s. Now, it's relatively uncommon to see a company that's having the success of Snowflake make this kind of non-trivial change in the middle of steep S-curve growth. Why did they make this move? Well, I think it's because Snowflake realizes that its data cloud is going to increasingly have industry diversity and unique value by industry, that ecosystems and data marketplaces are forming around industries. So the more industry affinity Snowflake can create, the stronger its moat will be. It also aligns with how the largest and most prominent global system integrators, global SIs, go to market. This is important because as companies are transforming, they are radically changing their data architecture, how they think about data, how they approach data as a competitive advantage, and they're looking at data as specifically a monetization opportunity. So having industry expertise and knowledge and aligning with those customer objectives is going to serve Snowflake and its ecosystems well in my view. Slootman even said he joined the board of Instacart not because he needed another board seat but because he wanted to get out of his comfort zone and expose himself to other industries as a way to learn. So look, we're just barely scratching the surface of Slootman's book and I've pulled some highlights from our conversation. There's so much more that I can share just even from our conversation. And I will as the opportunity arises. But for now, I'll just give you the kind of bumper sticker of "Amp It Up." Raise your standards by taking every opportunity, every interaction, to increase your intensity. Get your people aligned and moving in the same direction. If it's the wrong direction, figure it out and course correct quickly. Prioritize and sharpen your focus on things that will really make a difference. If you do these things and increase the urgency in your organization, you'll naturally pick up the pace and accelerate your company. Do these things and you'll be able to transform, better identify adjacent opportunities and go attack them, and create a lasting and meaningful experience for your employees, customers, and partners. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching. And thank you to Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast for Breaking Analysis. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our EIC over at Silicon Angle who does some wonderful and tremendous editing. Thank you all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in enterprise tech. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave ante. >>When Frank sluman took service, now public many people undervalued the company, positioning it as just a better help desk tool. You know, it turns out that the firm actually had a massive Tam expansion opportunity in it. SM customer service, HR, logistics, security marketing, and service management. Generally now stock price followed over the years, the stellar execution under Slootman and CFO, Mike scar Kelly's leadership. Now, when they took the reins at snowflake expectations were already set that they'd repeat the feet, but this time, if anything, the company was overvalued out of the gate, the thing is people didn't really better understand the market opportunity this time around, other than that, it was a bet on Salman's track record of execution and on data, pretty good bets, but folks really didn't appreciate that snowflake. Wasn't just a better data warehouse that it was building what they call a data cloud, and we've turned a data super cloud. >>Hello and welcome to this. Week's Wikibon cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis, we'll do four things. First. We're gonna review the recent narrative and concerns about snowflake and its value. Second, we're gonna share survey data from ETR that will confirm precisely what the company's CFO has been telling anyone who will listen. And third, we're gonna share our view of what snowflake is building IE, trying to become the defacto standard data platform, and four convey our expectations for the upcoming snowflake summit. Next week at Caesar's palace in Las Vegas, Snowflake's most recent quarterly results they've been well covered and well documented. It basically hit its targets, which for snowflake investors was bad news wall street piled on expressing concerns about Snowflake's consumption, pricing model, slowing growth rates, lack of profitability and valuation. Given the, given the current macro market conditions, the stock dropped below its IPO offering price, which you couldn't touch on day one, by the way, as the stock opened well above that and, and certainly closed well above that price of one 20 and folks express concerns about some pretty massive insider selling throughout 2021 and early 2022, all this caused the stock price to drop quite substantially. >>And today it's down around 63% or more year to date, but the only real substantive change in the company's business is that some of its largest consumer facing companies, while still growing dialed back, their consumption this past quarter, the tone of the call was I wouldn't say contentious the earnings call, but Scarelli, I think was getting somewhat annoyed with the implication from some analyst questions that something is fundamentally wrong with Snowflake's business. So let's unpack this a bit first. I wanna talk about the consumption pricing on the earnings call. One of the analysts asked if snowflake would consider more of a subscription based model so that they could better weather such fluctuations and demand before the analyst could even finish the question, CFO Scarelli emphatically interrupted and said, no, <laugh> the analyst might as well have asked, Hey Mike, have you ever considered changing your pricing model and screwing your customers the same way most legacy SaaS companies lock their customers in? >>So you could squeeze more revenue out of them and make my forecasting life a little bit easier. <laugh> consumption pricing is one of the things that makes a company like snowflake so attractive because customers is especially large customers facing fluctuating demand can dial and their end demand can dial down usage for certain workloads that are maybe not yet revenue producing or critical. Now let's jump to insider trading. There were a lot of insider selling going on last year and into 2022 now, I mean a lot sloop and Scarelli Christine Kleinman. Mike SP several board members. They sold stock worth, you know, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars or, or more at prices in the two hundreds and three hundreds and even four hundreds. You remember the company at one point was valued at a hundred billion dollars, surpassing the value of service now, which is this stupid at this point in the company's tenure and the insider's cost basis was very often in the single digit. >>So on the one hand, I can't blame them. You know what a gift the market gave them last year. Now also famed investor, Peter Linsey famously said, insiders sell for many reasons, but they only buy for one. But I have to say there wasn't a lot of insider buying of the stock when it was in the three hundreds and above. And so yeah, this pattern is something to watch our insiders buying. Now, I'm not sure we'll keep watching snowflake. It's pretty generous with stock based compensation and insiders still own plenty of stock. So, you know, maybe not, but we'll see in future disclosures, but the bottom line is Snowflake's business. Hasn't dramatically changed with the exception of these large consumer facing companies. Now, another analyst pointed out that companies like snap, he pointed to company snap, Peloton, Netflix, and face Facebook have been cutting back. >>And Scarelli said, and what was a bit of a surprise to me? Well, I'm not gonna name the customers, but it's not the ones you mentioned. So I, I thought I would've, you know, if I were the analyst I would've follow up with, how about Walmart target visa, Amex, Expedia price line, or Uber? Any of those Mike? I, I doubt he would've answered me anything. Anyway, the one thing that Scarelli did do is update Snowflake's fiscal year 2029 outlook to emphasize the long term opportunity that the company sees. This chart shows a financial snapshot of Snowflake's current business using a combination of quarterly and full year numbers in a model of what the business will look like. According to Scarelli in Dave ante with a little bit of judgment in 2029. So this is essentially based on the company's framework. Snowflake this year will surpass 2 billion in revenues and targeting 10 billion by 2029. >>Its current growth rate is 84% and its target is 30% in the out years, which is pretty impressive. Gross margins are gonna tick up a bit, but remember Snowflake's cost a good sold they're dominated by its cloud cost. So it's got a governor. There has to pay AWS Azure and Google for its infrastructure. But high seventies is a, is a good target. It's not like the historical Microsoft, you know, 80, 90% gross margin. Not that Microsoft is there anymore, but, but snowflake, you know, was gonna be limited by how far it can, how much it can push gross margin because of that factor. It's got a tiny operating margin today and it's targeting 20% in 2029. So that would be 2 billion. And you would certainly expect it's operating leverage in the out years to enable much, much, much lower SGNA than the current 54%. I'm guessing R and D's gonna stay healthy, you know, coming in at 15% or so. >>But the real interesting number to watch is free cash flow, 16% this year for the full fiscal year growing to 25% by 2029. So 2.5 billion in free cash flow in the out years, which I believe is up from previous Scarelli forecast in that 10, you know, out year view 2029 view and expect the net revenue retention, the NRR, it's gonna moderate. It's gonna come down, but it's still gonna be well over a hundred percent. We pegged it at 130% based on some of Mike's guidance. Now today, snowflake and every other stock is well off this morning. The company had a 40 billion value would drop well below that midday, but let's stick with the 40 billion on this, this sad Friday on the stock market, we'll go to 40 billion and who knows what the stock is gonna be valued in 2029? No idea, but let's say between 40 and 200 billion and look, it could get even ugly in the market as interest rates rise. >>And if inflation stays high, you know, until we get a Paul Voker like action, which is gonna be painful from the fed share, you know, let's hope we don't have a repeat of the long drawn out 1970s stagflation, but that is a concern among investors. We're gonna try to keep it positive here and we'll do a little sensitivity analysis of snowflake based on Scarelli and Ante's 2029 projections. What we've done here is we've calculated in this chart. Today's current valuation at about 40 billion and run a CAGR through 2029 with our estimates of valuation at that time. So if it stays at 40 billion valuation, can you imagine snowflake grow into a 10 billion company with no increase in valuation by the end, by by 2029 fiscal 2029, that would be a major bummer and investors would get a, a 0% return at 50 billion, 4% Kager 60 billion, 7%. >>Kegar now 7% market return is historically not bad relative to say the S and P 500, but with that kind of revenue and profitability growth projected by snowflake combined with inflation, that would again be a, a kind of a buzzkill for investors. The picture at 75 billion valuation, isn't much brighter, but it picks up at, at a hundred billion, even with inflation that should outperform the market. And as you get to 200 billion, which would track by the way, revenue growth, you get a 30% plus return, which would be pretty good. Could snowflake beat these projections. Absolutely. Could the market perform at the optimistic end of the spectrum? Sure. It could. It could outperform these levels. Could it not perform at these levels? You bet, but hopefully this gives a little context and framework to what Scarelli was talking about and his framework, not with notwithstanding the market's unpredictability you're you're on your own. >>There. I can't help snowflake looks like it's going to continue either way in amazing run compared to other software companies historically, and whether that's reflected in the stock price. Again, I, I, I can't predict, okay. Let's look at some ETR survey data, which aligns really well with what snowflake is telling the street. This chart shows the breakdown of Snowflake's net score and net score. Remember is ETS proprietary methodology that measures the percent of customers in their survey that are adding the platform new. That's the lime green at 19% existing snowflake customers that are ex spending 6% or more on the platform relative to last year. That's the forest green that's 55%. That's a big number flat spend. That's the gray at 21% decreasing spending. That's the pinkish at 5% and churning that's the red only 1% or, or moving off the platform, tiny, tiny churn, subtract the red from the greens and you get a net score that, that, that nets out to 68%. >>That's an, a very impressive net score by ETR standards. But it's down from the highs of the seventies and mid eighties, where high seventies and mid eighties, where snowflake has been since January of 2019 note that this survey of 1500 or so organizations includes 155 snowflake customers. What was really interesting is when we cut the data by industry sector, two of Snowflake's most important verticals, our finance and healthcare, both of those sectors are holding a net score in the ETR survey at its historic range. 83%. Hasn't really moved off that, you know, 80% plus number really encouraging, but retail consumer showed a dramatic decline. This past survey from 73% in the previous quarter down to 54%, 54% in just three months time. So this data aligns almost perfectly with what CFO Scarelli has been telling the street. So I give a lot of credibility to that narrative. >>Now here's a time series chart for the net score and the provision in the data set, meaning how penetrated snowflake is in the survey. Again, net score measures, spending velocity and a specific platform and provision measures the presence in the data set. You can see the steep downward trend in net score this past quarter. Now for context note, the red dotted line on the vertical axis at 40%, that's a bit of a magic number. Anything above that is best in class in our view, snowflake still a well, well above that line, but the April survey as we reported on May 7th in quite a bit of detail shows a meaningful break in the snowflake trend as shown by ETRS call out on the bottom line. You can see a steady rise in the survey, which is a proxy for Snowflake's overall market penetration. So steadily moving up and up. >>Here's a bit of a different view on that data bringing in some of Snowflake's peers and other data platforms. This XY graph shows net score on the vertical axis and provision on the horizontal with the red dotted line. At 40%, you can see from the ETR callouts again, that snowflake while declining in net score still holds the highest net score in the survey. So of course the highest data platforms while the spending velocity on AWS and Microsoft, uh, data platforms, outperforms that have, uh, sorry, while they're spending velocity on snowflake outperforms, that of AWS and, and Microsoft data platforms, those two are still well above the 40% line with a stronger market presence in the category. That's impressive because of their size. And you can see Google cloud and Mongo DB right around the 40% line. Now we reported on Mongo last week and discussed the commentary on consumption models. >>And we referenced Ray Lenchos what we thought was, was quite thoughtful research, uh, that rewarded Mongo DB for its forecasting transparency and, and accuracy and, and less likelihood of facing consumption headwinds. And, and I'll reiterate what I said last week, that snowflake, while seeing demand fluctuations this past quarter from those large customers is, is not like a data lake where you're just gonna shove data in and figure it out later, no schema on, right. Just throw it into the pond. That's gonna be more discretionary and you can turn that stuff off. More likely. Now you, you bring data into the snowflake data cloud with the intent of driving insights, which leads to actions, which leads to value creation. And as snowflake adds capabilities and expands its platform features and innovations and its ecosystem more and more data products are gonna be developed in the snowflake data cloud and by data products. >>We mean products and services that are conceived by business users. And that can be directly monetized, not just via analytics, but through governed data sharing and direct monetization. Here's a picture of that opportunity as we see it, this is our spin on our snowflake total available market chart that we've published many, many times. The key point here goes back to our opening statements. The snowflake data cloud is evolving well beyond just being a simpler and easier to use and more elastic cloud database snowflake is building what we often refer to as a super cloud. That is an abstraction layer that companies that, that comprises rich features and leverages the underlying primitives and APIs of the cloud providers, but hides all that complexity and adds new value beyond that infrastructure that value is seen in the left example in terms of compressed cycle time, snowflake often uses the example of pharmaceutical companies compressing time to discover a drug by years. >>Great example, there are many others this, and, and then through organic development and ecosystem expansion, snowflake will accelerate feature delivery. Snowflake's data cloud vision is not about vertically integrating all the functionality into its platform. Rather it's about creating a platform and delivering secure governed and facile and powerful analytics and data sharing capabilities to its customers, partners in a broad ecosystem so they can create additional value. On top of that ecosystem is how snowflake fills the gaps in its platform by building the best cloud data platform in the world, in terms of collaboration, security, governance, developer, friendliness, machine intelligence, etcetera, snowflake believes and plans to create a defacto standard. In our view in data platforms, get your data into the data cloud and all these native capabilities will be available to you. Now, is that a walled garden? Some might say it is. It's an interesting question and <laugh>, it's a moving target. >>It's definitely proprietary in the sense that snowflake is building something that is highly differentiatable and is building a moat around it. But the more open snowflake can make its platform. The more open source it uses, the more developer friendly and the great greater likelihood people will gravitate toward snowflake. Now, my new friend Tani, she's the creator of the data mesh concept. She might bristle at this narrative in favor, a more open source version of what snowflake is trying to build, but practically speaking, I think she'd recognize that we're a long ways off from that. And I also think that the benefits of a platform that despite requiring data to be inside of the data cloud can distribute data globally, enable facile governed, and computational data sharing, and to a large degree be a self-service platform for data, product builders. So this is how we see snow, the snowflake data cloud vision evolving question is edge part of that vision on the right hand side. >>Well, again, we think that is going to be a future challenge where the ecosystem is gonna have to come to play to fill those gaps. If snowflake can tap the edge, it'll bring even more clarity as to how it can expand into what we believe is a massive 200 billion Tam. Okay, let's close on next. Week's snowflake summit in Las Vegas. The cube is very excited to be there. I'll be hosting with Lisa Martin and we'll have Frank son as well as Christian Kleinman and several other snowflake experts. Analysts are gonna be there, uh, customers. And we're gonna have a number of ecosystem partners on as well. Here's what we'll be looking for. At least some of the things, evidence that our view of Snowflake's data cloud is actually taking shape and evolving in the way that we showed on the previous chart, where we also wanna figure out where snowflake is with it. >>Streamlet acquisition. Remember streamlet is a data science play and an expansion into data, bricks, territory, data, bricks, and snowflake have been going at it for a while. Streamlet brings an open source Python library and machine learning and kind of developer friendly data science environment. We also expect to hear some discussion, hopefully a lot of discussion about developers. Snowflake has a dedicated developer conference in November. So we expect to hear more about that and how it's gonna be leveraging further leveraging snow park, which it has previously announced, including a public preview of programming for unstructured data and data monetization along the lines of what we suggested earlier that is building data products that have the bells and whistles of native snowflake and can be directly monetized by Snowflake's customers. Snowflake's already announced a new workload this past week in security, and we'll be watching for others. >>And finally, what's happening in the all important ecosystem. One of the things we noted when we covered service now, cause we use service now as, as an example because Frank Lupin and Mike Scarelli and others, you know, DNA were there and they're improving on that service. Now in his post IPO, early adult years had a very slow pace. In our view was often one of our criticism of ecosystem development, you know, ServiceNow. They had some niche SI uh, like cloud Sherpa, and eventually the big guys came in and, and, and began to really lean in. And you had some other innovators kind of circling the mothership, some smaller companies, but generally we see sluman emphasizing the ecosystem growth much, much more than with this previous company. And that is a fundamental requirement in our view of any cloud or modern cloud company now to paraphrase the crazy man, Steve bomber developers, developers, developers, cause he screamed it and ranted and ran around the stage and was sweating <laugh> ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem equals optionality for developers and that's what they want. >>And that's how we see the current and future state of snowflake. Thanks today. If you're in Vegas next week, please stop by and say hello with the cube. Thanks to my colleagues, Stephanie Chan, who sometimes helps research breaking analysis topics. Alex, my is, and OS Myerson is on production. And today Andrew Frick, Sarah hiney, Steven Conti Anderson hill Chuck all and the entire team in Palo Alto, including Christian. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you Christian writer, of course, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out. And Rob ho is our E IIC over at Silicon angle. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast, wherever you listen to search breaking analysis podcast, I publish each week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can email me directly anytime David dot Valante Silicon angle.com. If you got something interesting, I'll respond. If not, I won't or DM me@deteorcommentonmylinkedinpostsandpleasedocheckoutetr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Valante for the insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you next week. I hope if not, we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

perfect all right we're good uh muhammad you ready yeah i have a watery eyes always so i always tell my interviewers or the producers that sometimes it shouldn't there shouldn't be a problem in the 10-minute window but well yeah so do that while i'm talking you'll see it on the return feed it's a little delayed but and most people have tears when they see dave vellante yeah i i have that effect on people thanks for that okay we all said we good leonard why don't you go alex bye-bye yeah alex got the i just got the thumbs up we're good okay muhammad here we go on dave in five four three we continue now with the network powering hybrid work now we just heard from lawrence wang on the rapid move to wi-fi 6e which is going to increase wi-fi efficiency enable routers and devices to more efficiently use bandwidth and that additional spectrum that lawrence talked about that means more wi-fi channels which is really going to help reduce overlap between networks and make a noticeable difference especially in crowded places we're here now with muhammad imam who's senior director of product management for catalyst switching this is a multi-billion dollar business for cisco if you ever listen to cisco's earnings calls you'll hear the cfo scott heron he'll talk about the catalyst 9000 and double-digit growth and switching this is the fastest ramping product in cisco's history so muhammad that's got to make you feel pretty good yes indeed thank you david and thank you for having me here yeah great to have you so uh look catalyst 9000 it's been really successful what does the 9000x bring to the table for your customers yeah absolutely and um indeed the catalyst 9000 family of switches have been extremely popular with our customers as you said fastest ramping product in cisco's history and the last four or five years we have really evolved the catalyst 9000 family of switches to a very comprehensive product portfolio um addressing the various enterprise use cases that that we that we address but now we see increase in demand on the networks and that really stems from some of the most recent trends that we are seeing right part of it is hybrid workspaces is going to be a video dominant hybrid workspace right a lot of cases is going to be high definition 4k 8k videos we are seeing cloud-based applications everywhere right my spreadsheet is used to be on excel sheet now it's either an office 365 or smartsheets my files used to be on my computer now it's on in the dropbox right so these are trends that are really uh putting pressure on our networks we are also seeing trends where vr headsets are becoming common they are being used for trainings and education use cases webex hologram in certain industries we are seeing robotics are becoming more and more popular and they come with a lot of um applications that are very latency sensitive and as lawrence mentioned earlier wi-fi 6e is really making over the year multi gigabit wi-fi possible right and for all of these different trends and the recent technologies that that are evolving we really need the network that can really address and deliver for these applications and that's where we are bringing the catalyst 9000 x that addresses the increase in network demand we are expanding the catalyst 9000 family with top-of-line premium introductions in the access layer of the switches of the network as well as in the aggregation and core layers so we are bringing 400 gig high-speed core and enterprise core and edge layers of the network we are bringing point-to-point ip ipsec security which will give you 100 gig of ipsec encryption um high density of multi-gigabit which is becoming very common as we evolve our wi-fi networks because we don't want our wired infrastructure to be the bottleneck when the wireless infrastructure is capable of going more than a gig high density of 90 watt powering the smart buildings use cases right right um these are all different use cases that are being enabled by the catalyst 9000 and the new getless 9000x family is really addressing some of these new trends and applications well it's good because the metaverse is coming too and we're going to need some help with that right who knows how much bandwidth will need for metabolism absolutely yeah guarantee will be a lot more but so i want to i want to hear more about the the new products that you've just launched and maybe how these offerings are going to help with this new hybrid work model that we've just been discussing absolutely so let me start with the catalyst 9300 we are introducing the catalyst 9300x which is the highest density full multi-gigabit platform with 100 gig uplinks and 90 watt of power on every port available right that's an industry first that we are bringing on the catalyst 9300 family it is also capable of one terabit per second of a stacking which is also unheard of in the industry this will serve our customers with all the new trends that we talked about including the hybrid world um and some of the new trends that are going to come in the next decade but 9300x is not just a high-end campus switch it can also be a lean branch and a box solution where you don't really need an sd van but you do need an encryption point to point from the catalyst 93 from your front branch with the catalyst 9300x to the data center or to the cloud so for the first time we are introducing the ipsec based encryption natively in the hardware and that means no compromise on performance and you can get up to 100 gig of encrypted traffic with the catalyst 9300x second is the catalyst 9400 we are introducing soup 2 and soup 2 xl with 100 gig uplinks enhancing and the the scale and performance giving our customers options for fully loaded line rate multi give it board on a 10 slot chassis right it will give you two to three times bandwidth boost to your existing line cards since it completely removes the over subscriptions and you know the soup 2 on the catalyst 9400 is coming up with the version of the asic that we used in the past on the catalyst 9600 that means it's also bringing the core capabilities that we used that we today have on 9600 on the catalyst 9400 and that brings high density 10 gig um ports on the catalyst 9400 without over subscription right with the core capabilities then we have the catalyst 9600 where we are introducing is supervisor 2 which really triples the bandwidth per slot on the catalyst 98600 it introduces 400 gig uplink and truly drives the transition to 200 gig in the core get 6k customers uh with excel scale requirements now they can transition to the cat 9k with soup 2. and by the way we are also introducing a combo line card on the catalyst 9600 which means now you don't have to burn a whole slot for your uplink pores in fact you can get up to 400 gig of uplink with this new line card um so that's that's a bunch of things that we are bringing on the catalyst 9600 in line with catalyst 9600 we are also introducing catalyst 9500x 100 gig box with 400 gig uplinks in a fixed form factor and all the benefits that i just talked about on the on the supervisor 2 and 9600 it's also available in a fixed form factor on catalyst 9500x got it so that's in summary kind of the multiple uh product lines that we are introducing yeah it's a lot to unpack there i mean your the big theme there of course is optionality you got a lot of choices for customers i love the encrypt everything without a trade-off you know no performance impact and anytime you can reduce my oversubscription it's going to make me happy you know muhammad we've reported in our breaking analysis segments the importance of custom silicon and not every company has the resources or the expertise to develop their own silicon cisco of course does catalyst 9k is bringing silicon 1 based products with this launch tell us more about that why is this important yeah that's really exciting development that we have on the cad 9k family because you know the silicon one is a powerful asic that enables high performance and high scale with modern silicon architecture bringing the architect a converged architecture for switching as well as routing cad 9k as we know has been running on a uadp asic which has been a programmable asic it has served us really well so far on the cat9k family but with the silicon one we are taking it to another level silicon one brings the capabilities of uadp asic and unlocks the excel scale and high performance in the enterprise switches this is a critical and foundational element to meet the core requirement for the next ticket silicon one is a 12.8 terabits per second chip supports up to 10 million routes supports much deeper buffers brings multi-slice voq architectures with this new architecture silicon 1a6 has paved the way to transition the cad 6k xl deployments to cat 9k right so that's kind of the the um the silicon one uh importance in the ket99k family that we are bringing now yeah and it brings differentiation a lot of people kind of sometimes don't appreciate that but but when you have the control like that you can do things that you might not be able to do with off-the-shelf silicon but so but i i want to ask you what about customers that previously purchased from you as you evolve the portfolio to 9k x how do you protect their investment yeah thank you for asking that question because when we started building the cad 9k we always thought about investment protection for our customers so if you buy today how you will have a very long life for that for that product and you will be able to unlock new powers on that platform that you have purchased maybe five years back right that's exactly what we are doing with the catalyst 199000x talking about modular right on the modular side the supervisors that that that we are introducing now are backward compatible with the line cars that you already have in some cases the lime card throughput is doubling and tripling because now you have a new machine that is going to power these line cards right so you don't have to change your line card you just change your supervisor and you have much higher performance and scale with this new supervisor similarly on the stackables you can stack with the existing catalyst 9300s for example and you will be able to you don't have to rip and replace everything it's not a forklift upgrade for our customers you can continue benefiting from your existing catalyst 9000 deployments and add to the power with the catalyst 9000x components as well as new platforms that we are introducing nice that's key this just speaks to the software content that you guys i know you have a lot of software engineers running around and this is welcome to the 2020s folks new world you know i i muhammad zero trust was kind of a buzzword before the pandemic but it's really become a mainstream topic today we talked about the infrastructure we know security has to be built in from the start it can't be bolted on and zero trust is really top of mind for customers how are their security requirements changing as a result of hybrid work and and how do you make sure that as we shift to hybrid that these new security requirements are addressed what are you doing there absolutely and we know as you said security is top of mind for our customers in fact security has been highlighted as the number one reason why a lot of customers pick cisco and cat9k we have a comprehensive zero truss architecture with software defined access where we started with segmentation and expanded into endpoint classification and visibility now we are taking that to the next level and we are introducing talus powered truss assessment for unmanaged endpoints to further make the the workplace is stronger with zero trust and software defined access truss analytics it detects traffic from end points that are exhibiting unusual um behavior by pretending to be um using a mag spoofing or probe is spoofing or man the metal techniques when truss analytics detects such anomalies it signals endpoint analytics to lower the trusted score so we have a trusted score system when when the trusted score goes down it shows up on the dashboard and the network admin can completely deny or limit the access to the network from these endpoints from other security aspect that we are introducing and i touched on that briefly earlier is um for non-sdvan internet only branches where we are where where services security services might be in the cloud right that's a trend that we are seeing to secure that connectivity from a lean branch to the cloud we are introducing the ipsec capability with the catalyst 9300x and that's built in as as we just talked about and as far as the automation is concerned for these use cases they are we are bringing those automation with our command center the cisco dna center and we are bringing the full life cycle of automation as well as assurance for the secure connectivity that is being provided with the with the cisco dna center well a couple takeaways there for me i mean endpoint security has really become much more important up for obvious reasons when you have remote workers the built-in ipsec just that really emphasizes that you got to have it you know built in from the ground up you can't just bolt it on and the automation is key the number one problem that csos face is you know lack of talent so automation you know definitely helps helps with that so okay muhammad thank you so much really appreciate you coming on in a moment we'll look at private 5g and what's been happening at mobile world congress you're watching cube's coverage of the network powering hybrid work made possible by cisco

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Cisco is a company at the crossroads. It's transitioning from a high margin hardware business to a software subscription-based model, which also should be high margin through both organic moves and targeted acquisitions. It's doing so in the context of massive macro shifts to digital in the cloud. We believe Cisco's dominant position in networking combined with a large market opportunity and a strong track record of earning customer trust, put the company in a good position to capitalize on cloud momentum. However, there are clear challenges ahead for Cisco, not the least of which is the growing complexity of its portfolio, a large legacy business, and the mandate to maintain its higher profitability profile as it transitions into a new business model. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we welcome in Zeus Kerravala, who's the founder and principal analyst at ZK Research, long time Cisco watcher who together with me crafted the premise of today's session. Zeus, great to see you welcome to the program. >> Thanks Dave. It's always a pleasure to be with you guys. >> Okay, here's what we're going to talk about today, set the agenda. The catalyst for this session, Zeus and I attended Cisco's financial analyst day. We received a day and a half of firehose presentations, drill downs, interactions, Q and A with Cisco execs and one key customer. So we're going to share our takeaways from these sessions and add our additional thoughts. Now, in particular, we're going to talk about Cisco's TAM, its transformation to a subscription-based model, and how we see that evolving. As always, we're going to bring in some ETR spending data for context and get Zeus' take on what that tells us. And we'll end with a summary of Cisco's cloud strategy and outlook for how it could win in the cloud. So let's talk about Cisco's sort of structure and TAM opportunities. First, Zeus, Cisco has four main lines of business where it's organized it's executives around sort of four product areas. And it's got a large service component as well. Network equipment, SP routing, data center, collaboration that security, and as I say services, that's not necessarily how it's going to market, but that's kind of the way it organizes its ELT, its executive leadership team. >> Yeah, the in fact, the ELT has been organized around those products, as you said. It used to report to the street three product segments, infrastructure platforms, which was by far the biggest, it was all their networking equipment, then applications, and then security. Now it's moved to five new segments, secure agile networks, hybrid work, end to end security, internet for the future and optimized app experiences. And I think what Cisco's trying to do is align their, the way they report along the lines of the way customers buy. 'Cause I think before, you know, they had a very simplistic model before. It was just infrastructure, apps, and security. The ELT is organized around product roadmap and the product innovation, but that's not necessarily the way customers purchase things and so, purchase things so I think they've tried to change things a little bit there. When you look at those segments though, you know, by, it's interesting. They're all big, right? So, by far the biggest distilled networking, which is almost a hundred billion dollar TAM as they reported and they have it growing a about a 9% CAGR as reported by other analyst firms. And when you think about how mature networking is Dave, the fact that that's still growing at high single digit CAGR is still pretty remarkable. So I think that's one of those things that, you know, watchers of Cisco historically have been calling for the network to be commoditized for decades. For as long as I've been watching Cisco, we've been, people have been waiting for the network to be commoditized. My thesis has always been, if you can drive enough innovation into things, you can stave off commoditization and that's what they've done. But that's really the anchor for them to sell all their other products, some of which are higher margin, some which are a little bit sore, but they're all good high margin businesses to your point. >> Awesome. We're going to dig into that. So, so they flattened the organization when Geckler left. You've got Todd Nightingale, Jonathan Davidson, Liz Centoni, and Jeetu Patel who we heard from and we'll make some comments on what we heard from them. One of the big takeaways at the financial analysts meeting was on the TAM, as you just mentioned. Liz Centoni who also is heavily involved in strategy and the CFO Scott Herren, showed this slide, which speaks to the company's TAM and the organizational structure that you were just talking about. So the big message was that Cisco has got a large and growing market, you know, no shortage of available market. Somewhere between eight and 900 billion, depending on which of the slides you pull out of the deck. And ironically Zeus, when you look at the current markets number here on the right hand side of this slide, 260 billion, it just about matches the company's market cap. Maybe an interesting coincidence, but at any rate, what was your takeaway from this data? >> Well, I think, you know, the big takeaway from the data is there's still a lot of room ahead for Cisco to grow, right? Again, this is a, it's a company that I think most people would put in the camp of legacy IT vendor, just because of how long they've been around. But they have done a very good job of staving off innovation. And part of that is just these markets that they play in continue to grow and they continue to have challenges that they can solve. I think one of the things Cisco has done though, since the arrival of Chuck Robbins, is they don't fight these trends anymore, Dave. I know prior to Chuck's arrival, they really fought the tide of software defined networking and you know, trends like that, and even cloud to some extent. And I remember one of the first meetings I had with Chuck, I asked him about that and he said that Cisco will never do that again. That under his watch, if customers are going through a market transition, Cisco wants to lead them through it, not try and hold them back. And I think for that reason, they're able to look at, all of those trends and try and take a leadership position in them, even though you might look at some of those and feel that some of them might be detrimental to Cisco's business in the short term. So something like software defined WANs, which you would throw into secure agile networks, certainly doesn't, may not carry the same kind of RPOs and margins with it that their traditional routers did, but ultimately customers are going to buy it and Cisco would like to be the ones to sell it to them. >> You know, you bring up a great point. This industry is littered, there's a graveyard of executives who fought the trend. Many people, some people remember Ken Olson of Digital Equipment Corporation. "Unix is snake oil," is what he said. IBM mainframe guys said, "PCs are a toy." And of course the history, they were the wrong side of history. The other big takeaway was the shift to software in subscription. They really made a big point of this. Here's a chart Cisco showed a couple of times to make the point that it's one of the largest software companies in the world. You know, in the top 10. They also made the point that Chuck Robbins, when he joined in 2015, and since that time, it's nearly 4x'ed it's subscription software revenue, and roughly doubled its software sales. And it now has an RPO, remaining performance obligations, that exceeds 30 billion. And it's committing to grow its subscription business in the forward-looking statements by 15 to 17% CAGR through 25, which would imply about a doubling of these, the blue lines. Zeus, it's unclear if that forward-looking forecast is just software. I presume it includes some services, but as Herren pointed out, over time, these services will be bundled into the product revenue, same way SAS companies do it. But the point is Cisco is committed, like many of their peers, to moving to an ARR model. But please, share your thoughts on Cisco's move to software subscriptions and how you see the future of consumption-based pricing. >> Yeah, this has been a big shift for Cisco, obviously. It's one that's highly disruptive. It's one that I know gave their partners a lot of angst for a long time because when you sell things upfront, you get a big check for selling that, right? And when you sell things in a subscription model, you get a much smaller check for a number of months over the period of the contract. It also changes the way you deal with the customer. When you sell a one-time product, you basically wipe your hands. You come back in three or four years and say, "it's time to upgrade." When you sell a subscription, now, the one thing that I've tried to talk to Cisco and its partners about is customers don't renew things they don't use. And so it becomes incumbent on the partner, it becomes incumbent upon Cisco to make sure that things that the customer is subscribing to, that they do use. And so Cisco's had to create a customer success organization. They've had to help their partners create those customer success organizations. So it's really changed the model. And Cisco not only made the shift, they've done it faster than they actually had originally forecast. So during the financial analyst day, they actually touted their execution on software, noting that it hit it's 30% revenue as percent of total target well before it was supposed to, it's actually exceeded its targets. And now it's looking to increase that to, it actually raised its guidance in this area a little bit by a few percentage points, looking out over the next few years. And so it's moved to the subscription model, Dave, the thing that you brought up, which I do see as somewhat of a challenge is the shift to consumption-based pricing. So subscription is one thing in that I write you a check every month for the same amount. When I go to the consumption-based pricing, that's easy to do for cloud services, things like WebEx or Duo or, you know, CloudLock, some of the security products. That that shift should be relatively simple. If customers want to buy it that way. It's unclear as to how you do that when you're selling on-prem equipment with the software add-on to it because in that case, you have to put metering technology in to understand how much they're using. You have to have a minimum baseline to start with. They've done it in some respects. The old HCS product that they sold, the Telcos, actually was sold with a minimum commit and then they tacked on a utilization on top of that. So maybe they move into that kind of model. But I know it's something that they've, they get asked about a lot. I know they're still thinking about it, but it's something that I believe is coming and it's going to come pretty fast. >> I want to pick up on that because I think, you know, they made the point that we're one of the top 10 software companies in the world. It's very difficult for hardware companies to make the transition to software. You know, HP couldn't do it. >> Well, no one's done it. >> Well, IBM has kind of done it, but they really struggle. It's kind of this mishmash of tooling and software products that aren't really well-integrated. But, I would say this, everybody now, Cisco, Dell, HPE with GreenLake, Lenovo, pretty much all the traditional hardware players are trying to move to an as a service model or at least for a portion of their business. HPE's all in, Dell transitioning. And for the most part, I would make the following observation. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this. They're pretty much following a SAS like model, which in my view is outdated and kind of flawed from a customer standpoint. All these guys say, "Hey, we're doing this because "this is what the customers want." I think the cloud is really a true consumption based model. And if you look at modern SAS companies, a lot of the startups, they're moving to a consumption based model. You see that with Snowflake, you see that with Stripe. Now they will offer incentives. But most of the traditional enterprise players, they're saying, "Okay, pay us upfront, "commit to some base level. "If you go over it, you know, "we'll charge you for it. "If you go under it, you're still going to pay "for that base level." So it's not true consumption base. It's not really necessarily the customer's best interest. So that's, I think there's some learnings there that are going to have to play out. >> Yeah, the reason customers are shying away from that SAS type model, I think during the pandemic, the one thing we learned, Dave, is that the business will ebb and flow greatly from month to month sometimes. And I was talking with somebody that worked for one of the big hotel chains, and she was telling me that what their CRM providers, she wouldn't tell me who it was, except said it rhymed with Shmalesforce, that their utilization of it went from, you know, from a nice steady level to spiking really high when customers started calling in to cancel hotel rooms. And then it dropped down to almost nothing as we went through that period of stay at home. And now it's risen back up. And so for her, she wanted to move to a consumption-based model because what happens otherwise is you wind up buying for peak utilization, your software subscriptions go largely underutilized the majority of the year, and you wind up paying, you know, a lot more than you need to. If you go to more of a true consumption model, it's harder to model out from a financial perspective 'cause there's a lot of ebbs and flows in the business, but over a longer period of time, it's more cost-effective, right? And so the, again, what the pandemic taught us was we don't really know what we're going to need from a consumption standpoint, you know, nevermind a year from now, maybe even six months from now. And consumption just creates a lot more flexibility and agility. You can scale up, you can scale down. You can bring in users, you can take out users, you can add consultants, things like that. And it just, it's much more aligned with the way businesses are run today. >> Yeah, churn is a silent killer of a software company. And so there's retention is the key here. So again, I think there's lots of learning. Let's put Cisco into context with some of its peers. So this chart we developed compares five companies to Cisco. Core Dell, meaning Dell, without VMware. VMware, HPE, IBM, we've put an AWS, and then Cisco as, IBM, AWS and Cisco is the integrated plays. So the chart shows the latest quarterly revenue multiplied by four to get a run rate, a three-year growth outlook, gross margin percentage, market cap, and revenue multiple. And the key points here are that one, Cisco has got a pretty awesome business model. It's got 60% gross margin, strong operating margins, not shown here, but in the mid twenties, 25%. It's got a higher growth rate than most of its peers. And as such, a much better, multiple than say, for instance, Core Dell gets 33 cents on the revenue dollar. HPE is double that. IBM's below two X. Cisco's revenue multiple rivals VMware, which is a pure software company. Now in a large part that's because VMware stock took a hit recently, but still the point is obvious. Cisco's got a great business. Now for context, we've added AWS, which blows away any company on this chart. We've inferred a market cap of nearly 600 billion, which frankly is conservative at a 10 X revenue multiple given it's inferred margins and growth rate. Now Zeus, if AWS were a separate company, it could have a market cap that approached 800 billion in my view. But what does this data tell you? >> Well, it just tells me that Cisco continues to be a very well-run company that has staved off commoditization, despite the calling for it for years. And I think the big lesson, and I've talked to financial analysts about this over the years, is that if, I don't really believe anything in this world is a commodity, Dave. I think even when Cisco went to the server market, if you remember back then, they created a new way of handling memory management. They were getting well above average margins for service, albeit less than Cisco's network margins, but still above average for server margins. And so I think if you can continue to innovate, you will see the margin stay where they are. You will see customers continue to buy and refresh. And I think one of the challenges Cisco's had in the past, and this is where the subscription business will help, is getting customers to stay with the latest and greatest. Prior to this refresh of network equipment, some of the stuff that I've seen in the fields, 10, 15 years old, once you move to that sell me a box and then tack on the subscription revenue that you pay month by month, you do drive more consistent refresh. Think about the way you just handle your own mobile phone. If you had to go pay, you know, a thousand dollars every three years, you might not do it at that three-year cycle. If you pay 40 bucks a month, every time there's a new phone, you're going to take it, right? So I think Cisco is able to drive greater, better refresh, keep their customers current, keep the features in there. And we've seen that with a lot of the new products. The new Cat 9,000, some of the new service provider products, the new wifi products, they've all done very well. In fact, they've all outpaced their previous generation products as far as growth rate goes. And so I think that is a testament to the way they've run the business. But I do think when people bucket Cisco in with HP and Dell, and I understand why they do, their businesses were similar at one time, it's really not a true comparison anymore. I think Cisco has completely changed their business and they're not trying to commoditize markets, they're trying to drive innovation and keep the margins up, where I think HP and Dell tend to really compete on price versus innovation. >> Well, and we are going to get to this point about the tailwinds and headwinds and cloud, and how Cisco to do it. But, to your point about, you know, the cell phone analogy. To the extent that Cisco can make that seamless for customers could hide that underlying complexity, that's going to be critical for the cloud. Now, but before we get there, I want to talk about one of the reasons why Cisco such a high multiple, and has been able to preserve its margins, to your point, not being commoditized. And it's been able to grow both organically, but also has a strong history of M and A. It's this chart shows a dominant position in core networking. So this shows, so ETR data within the Fortune 500. It plots companies in the ETR taxonomy in two dimensions, net score on the vertical axis, which is a measure of spending velocity, and market share on the horizontal axis, which is a measure of presence in the survey. It's not like IDC market share, it's mentioned market share if you will. The point is Cisco is far and away the most pervasive player in the market, it's generally held its dominant position. Although, it's been under pressure in the last few years in core networking, but it retains or maintains a very respectable net score and consistently performs well for such a large company. Zeus, anything you'd add with respect to Cisco's core networking business? >> Yeah, it's maintained a dominant network position historically. I think part of because it drives good products, but also because the competitive landscape, historically has been pretty weak, right? We saw companies like 3Com and Nortel who aren't around anymore. It'll be interesting to see moving forward now that companies like VMware are involved in networking. AWS is interested in networking. Arista is a much stronger company. You know, Juniper bought Mist and is in better position. Even Extreme Networks who most people thought was dead a few years ago has made a number of acquisitions and is now a billion dollar company. So while Cisco has done a great job of execution, they've done a great job on the innovation side, their competitive landscape, looking out over the next five years, I think is going to be more difficult than it has been over the previous five years. And largely, Dave, I think that's good for Cisco. I think whenever Cisco's pressed a little bit from competition, they tend to step on the innovation gas a little bit more. And I look back and even just the transition when VMware bought Nicira, that got Cisco's SDN business into gear, like nothing else could have, right? So competition for that company, they always seem to respond well to it. >> So, let's break down Cisco's net score a little bit. Explain why the company has been able to hold its spending momentum despite its large size. This will give you a little insight to the survey. So this chart shows the granular components of net score. The lime green is new adoptions to Cisco. The forest green is spending more than 6%. The gray is flat plus or minus 5%. The pink is spending drops by more than 5%. And the red is we're chucking the platform, we're getting off. And Cisco's overall net score here is 25%, which for a company of its size speaks to the relationships that it has with customers. It's of course got a fat middle in the gray area, like all sort of large established companies. But very low defections as well, it's got low new adoptions. But very respectable. So that is background, Zeus. Let's look at spending momentum over time across Cisco's portfolio. So this chart shows Cisco's net score by that methodology within the ETR taxonomy for Cisco over three survey periods. And what jumps out is Meraki on the left, very strong. Virtualization business, its core networking, analytics and security, all showing upward momentum. AppD is a little bit concerning, but that could be related to Cisco's sort of pivot to full stack observability. So maybe AppD is being bundled there. Although some practitioners have cited to us some concerns in that space. And then WebEx at the end of the chart, it's showing some relative strength, but not that high. Zeus, maybe you could comment on Meraki and any other takeaways across the portfolio. >> Yeah, Meraki has proven to be an excellent acquisition for Cisco. In fact, you might, I think it's arguable to say it's its best acquisition in history going all the way back to camp Kalpana and Grand Junction, the ones that brought up catalyst switches. So, in fact, I think Meraki's revenue might be larger than security now. So, that shows you the momentum it has. I think one of the lessons it brought to Cisco was that simpler is better, sometimes. I think when they first bought Meraki, the way Meraki's deployed, it's very easy to set up. There's a lot of engineering work though that goes into making a product simple to use. And I think a lot of Cisco engineers historically looked at Meraki as, that's a little bit of a toy. It's meant for small businesses, things like that, but it's not for enterprise. But, Rocky's done a nice job of expanding the portfolio, of leveraging the cloud for analytics and showing you a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily get from traditional networking equipment. And one of the things that I was really delighted to see was when they put Todd Nightingale in charge of all the networking business, because that showed to me that Chuck Robbins understood that the things Meraki were doing were right and they infuse a little bit of Meraki into the rest of the company. You know, that's certainly a good thing. The other areas that you showed on the chart, not really a surprise, Dave. When you think of the shift hybrid work and you think of the, some of the other transitions going on, I think you would expect to see the server business in decline, the storage business, you know, maybe in a little bit of decline, just because people aren't building out data centers. Where the other ones are related more to hybrid working, hybrid cloud, things like that. So it is what you would expect. The WebEx one was interesting too, because it did show somewhat of a dip and then a rise. And I think that's indicative of what we've seen in the collaboration space since the pandemic came about. Companies like Zoom and RingCentral really got a lot of the headlines. Again, when you, the comment I made on competition, Cisco got caught a little bit flat-footed, they've caught up in features and now they really stepped on the gas there. Chuck joked that he gave the WebEx team a bit of a blank check to go do what it had to do. And I don't think that was a joke. I think he actually did that because they've added more features into WebEx in the last year then I think they did the previous five years before that. >> Well, let's just drill into video conferencing real quick here, if we could. Here's that two dimensional view, again, showing net score against market share or pervasiveness of mentions, and you can see Microsoft Teams in the upper right. I mean, it's off the chart, literally. Zoom's well ahead of Cisco in terms of, you know, mentions presence. And that could be a spate of freemium, you know, but it's basically a three horse race in this game. And Cisco, I don't think is trying to take Zoom head on, rather it seems to be making WebEx a core part of its broader collaboration agenda. But Zeus, maybe you could comment. >> Well, it's all coming together, right? So, it's hard to decouple calling from video from meetings. All of the vendors, including Teams, are going after the hybrid work experience. And if you believe the future is hybrid and not just work from home, then Cisco does have a pretty interesting advantage because it's the only one that makes its own end points, where Teams and Zoom doesn't. And so that end to end experience it can deliver. The Microsoft Teams one's interesting because that product, frankly, when you talk to users, it doesn't have a great user score, like as far as user satisfaction goes, but the one thing Microsoft has done a very good job of is bundling it in to the Office365 licenses, making it very easy for IT to deploy. Zoom is a little bit in the middle where they've appealed to the users. They've done a better job of appealing to IT, but there is a, there is a battleground now going on where video's not just video. It includes calling, includes meetings, includes room systems now, and I think this hybrid work friend is going to change the way we think about these meeting tools. >> Now we'd be remiss if we didn't spend a moment talking about security as a key part of Cisco's business. And we have a graphic on this same kind of X, Y. And it's been, we've seen several quarters of growth. Although, the last quarter security growth was in the low single digits, but Cisco is a major player in security. And this X, Y graph shows, they've got both a large presence and a solid spending momentum. Not nearly as much momentum as Okta or Zscaler or a CrowdStrike and some of the smaller companies, but they're, these guys are on a rocket ship, but others that we featured in these episodes, but much more than respectable for Cisco. And security is critical to the strategy. It's a big part of the subscriber base. And the last thing, Zeus, I'll say about Cisco made the point in analyst day, that this market is crowded. You can see that in this chart. And their goal is to simplify this picture and make it easier for customers to secure their data and apps. But that's not easy, Zeus. What are your thoughts on Cisco's security opportunities? >> Yeah, I've been waiting for Cisco go to break up in security a little more than it has. I do think, I was talking with a CSO the other day, Dave, that said to me he's starting to understand that you don't have to have best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, there's a lot of buyers now will tell you that if you try and have best of breed everywhere, it actually creates a negative when it comes to threat protection because keeping all the policies and things up to date is very, very difficult. And so the industry is moving more to a platform model, right? Now, the challenge for Cisco is how do you get that, the customer to think of the network as part of the platform? Because while the platform model, I think, is starting to gain traction, FloridaNet, Palo Alto, even McAfee, companies like that also have their own version of a security platform. And if you look at the financial performance of companies like FloridaNet and Palo Alto over the past, you know, over the past couple of years, they've been through the roof, right? And so I think an interesting and unique challenge for Cisco is can they convince the security buyer that the network is as important a part of that platform as any other component? If they can do that, I think they can break away from the pack. If not, then they'll stay mixed in with those, you know, Palo, FloridaNet, Checkpoint, and, you know, and Cisco, in that mix. But I do think that may present their single biggest needle moving opportunity just because of how big the security TAM is, and the fact that there is no de facto leader in security today. If they could gain the same kind of position in security as they have a networking, who, I mean, that would move the needle like no other market would. >> Yeah, it's really interesting that they're coming at security, obviously from a position of networking strength. You've got, to your point, you've got best of breed, Okta in identity, you got CrowdStrike in endpoint, Zscaler in cloud security. They're all growing like crazy. And you got Cisco and you know, Palo Alto, CSOs tell us they want to work with Palo Alto because they're the thought leader and they're obviously a major player here. You mentioned FloridaNet, there's a zillion others. We could talk all day about security. But let's bring it back to cloud. We've talked about a number of the piece in Cisco's portfolio, and we haven't really spent any time on full stack observability, which is a big push for Cisco with AppD, Intersight and the ThousandEyes acquisition. And that plays into this equation. But my take, Zeus, is Cisco has a number of cloud knobs that it can turn, it sells core networking equipment to hyperscalers. It can be the abstraction layer to connect on-prem to the cloud and hybrid and across clouds. And it's in a good position with Telcos too, to go after the 5G. But let's use this chart to talk about Cisco's cloud prospects. It's an ETR cut of the cloud customer spending. So we cut it by cloud customers. And they're are, I don't know, 800 or so in the survey. And then looking at various companies performance within that cut. So these are companies that compete, or in the case of HashiCorp, partner with Cisco at some level. Let me just set this up and get your take. So the insert on the chart by the way shows the raw data that positions each dot, the net score and the shared n, i.e. the number of accounts in the survey that responded. The key points, first of all, Azure and AWS, dominant players in cloud. GCP is a distant third. We've reported on that a lot. Not only are these two companies big, they have spending momentum on their platforms. They're growing, they are on that flywheel. Second point, VMware and Cisco are very prominent. They have huge customer bases. And while they're often on a collision course, there's lots of room in cloud for multiple players. When we plotted some other Cisco properties like AppD and Meraki, which as we said, is strong. And then for context, we've placed Dell, HPE, Aruba, IBM and Oracle. And also VMware cloud and AWS, which is notable on its elevation. And as I say, we've added HashiCorp because they're critical partner of Cisco and it's a multi-cloud play. Okay, Zeus, there's the setup. What does Cisco have to do to make the cloud a tailwind? Let's talk about strategy, tailwinds, headwinds, competition, and bottom line it for us. >> Yeah, well, I do think, well, I talked about security being the biggest needle mover for Cisco, I think its biggest challenge is convincing Wall Street in particular, that the cloud is a tailwind. I think if you look at the companies with the really high multiples to their stock, Dave, they're all ones where they're viewed as, they go along with the cloud ride, Right? So the, if you can associate yourself with the cloud and then people believe that the cloud is going to, more cloud equals more business, that obviously creates a better multiple because the cloud has almost infinite potential ahead of it. Now with respect to Cisco, I do think cloud has presented somewhat of a double-edged sword for Cisco. I don't believe the current consumption model for cloud is really a tailwind for Cisco, not really a headwind, but it doesn't really change Cisco's business. But I do think the very definition of cloud is changing before our eyes, Dave. And it's shifting away from centralized clouds. If you think of the way customers bought cloud before, it might have used AWS, it might've used Azure, but it really, that's not really multi-cloud, it's just multiple clouds in which I put things in these centralized resources. It's shifting more to this concept of distributed cloud in which a single application can be built using resources from your private cloud, for AWS, from Azure, from Edge locations, all the cloud providers have built their portfolios to support this concept of distributed cloud and what becomes important there, is a highly agile dynamic network. And in that case with distributed cloud, that is a tailwind for Cisco because now the network is that resource that ties all those distributed cloud components together. Now the network itself has to change. It needs to become a lot more agile and microservices and container friendly itself so I can spin up resources and, you know, in an Edge location, as fast as I can on-prem and things like that. But I do think it creates another wave of innovation and networking, and in that case, I think it does act as a tailwind for Cisco, aside from just the work it's done with the web scalers, you know, those types of companies. So, but I do think that Cisco needs to rethink its delivery model on network services somewhat to take advantage of that. >> At the analyst meeting, Cisco made the point that it does sell to the hyperscalers. It talked about the top six hyperscalers. You know, you had mentioned to me, maybe IBM and Oracle were in there. I always talk about four hyperscalers and only four, but that's fine. Here's my question. Practitioners have told me, buyers have told me, the more money and more workloads I put in the cloud, the less I spend with Cisco. Now, even though that might be Cisco gear powering those clouds, do you see that as a potential threat in that they don't own that relationship anymore and value will confer to the cloud players? >> Yeah, that's, I've heard that too. And I don't, I believe that's true when it comes to general purpose compute. You're probably not buying as many UCS servers and things like that because you are putting them in the cloud. But I do think you do need a refresh the network. I think the network becomes a very important role, plays a very important role there. The variant, the really interesting trend will be, what is your WAM look like? Do you have thousands of workers scattered all over the place, or do you just have a few centralized locations? So I think also, you know, Cisco will wind up providing connectivity within the cloud. If you think of the transition we've seen in other industries, Dave, as far as cloud goes, you think of, you know, F5, a company like that. People thought that AWS would commoditize F5's business because AWS provides their own load balancers, right? But what AWS provides is a very basic, very basic functionality and then use F5's virtual edition or a cloud edition for a lot of the advanced capabilities. And I think you'll see the same thing with the cloud that customers will start buying versions of Cisco that go in the cloud to drive a lot of those advanced capabilities that only Cisco delivers. And so I think you wind up buying more Cisco over time, although the per unit price of what you buy might be a little bit lower. If that makes sense here. >> It does, I think it makes a lot of sense and that fits into the cloud model. You know, you bring up a good point, the conversation with the customer was Rakuten. And that individual was essentially sharing with us, somebody was asking, one of the analysts was asking, "Well, what about the cloud guys? "Aren't they going to really threaten the whole Telco "industry and disrupt it?" And his point was, "Look at, this stuff is not trivial." So to your point, you know, maybe they'll provide some basic functionality. Kind of like they do in a lot of different areas. Data protection is another good example. Security is another good example. Where there's plenty of room for partners, competitors, of on-prem players to add value. And I've always said, "Look, the opportunity "is the cloud players spend 100 billion dollars a year "on CapEx." It's a gift to companies like Cisco who can build an abstraction layer that connects on-prem, cloud for hybrid, across clouds, out to the edge, and really be that layer that is that layer that takes advantage of cloud native, but also delivers that experience, I don't want to use the word seamlessly, but that experience across those clouds as the cloud expands. And that's fundamentally Cisco's cloud strategy, isn't it? >> Oh yeah. And I think people have underestimated over the years, how hard it is to build good networking products. Anybody can go get some silicon and build a product to connect two things together. The question is, can you do it at scale? Can you do it securely? And lots of companies have tried to commoditize networking, you know, White Boxes was looked at as the existential threat to Cisco. Huawei was looked at as the big threat to Cisco. And all of those have kind of come and gone because building high quality network equipment that scales is tough. And it's tougher than most people realize. And your other point on the cloud providers as well, they will provide a basic level of functionality. You know, AWS network equipment doesn't work in Azure. And Azure stuff doesn't work in Google, and Google doesn't work in AWS. And so you do need a third party to come in and act as almost the cloud middleware that can connect all those things together with a consistent set of policies. And that's what Cisco does really well. They did that, you know back when they were founded with routing protocols and you can think this is just an extension of what they're doing just up at the cloud layer. >> Excellent. Okay, Zeus, we're going to leave it there. Thanks to my guest today, Zeus Kerravala. Great analysis as always. Would love to have you back. Check out ZKresearch.com to reach him. Thank you again. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Now, remember I publish each week on Wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Braking Analysis" podcast, and you can connect on Twitter at DVallante or email me David.Vallante@siliconangle.com. Thanks for the comments on LinkedIn. Check out etr.plus for all the survey action. This is Dave Vallante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Be well and we'll see you next time. (light music)

>>mhm. What the special cube conversation here in Palo alto, I'm john Kerry host of the cube. We're here talking about kubernetes Cloud native and all things Cloud, cloud enterprise amir Sure VP of product and morgan Stanley is with me and we are great to have you on the cube. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate you taking the time, >>appreciate it, john good to be here. You >>know, cloud Native obviously super hot right now as the edges around the corner, you're seeing people looking at five G looking at amazon's wavelength outposts you've got as you got a lot of cloud companies really pushing distributed computing and I think one of the things that people really are getting into is okay, how do I take the cloud and re factor my business and then that's one business side then, the technical side. Okay, How do I do it? Like it's not that easy. Right. So it sounds, it sounds really easy to just go to move to the cloud. This is something that's been a big problem. So I know you guys in the center of all this uh and you've got, you know, microservices, kubernetes at the core of this, take a minute to introduce the company, what you guys do then I want to get into some specific questions. >>Mhm, of course. Well, bob Sani is a startup? Silicon Valley startup and what we do is automate system configuration that's typically worked at an engineer does and take lengthy and if done incorrectly at least to a lot of errors and cost overruns and the user experience problems. We completely automate that using an Ai and ml back end so that the engineering can focus on writing code and not worry about having to tune the little pieces working together. >>You know, I love the, I was talking to a V. C on our last uh startup showcase, cloud startup showcase and uh really prominent VC and he was talking about down stack up stack benefits and he says if you're going to be a down stack um, provider, you got to solve a problem. It has to be a big problem that people don't want to deal with. So, and you start getting into some of the systems configuration when you have automation at the center of this as a table stakes item problems are cropping up as new use cases are emerging. Can you talk about some of the problems that you guys see that you solve for developers and companies, >>of course. So they're basically, they're, the problem expresses itself in a number of domains. The first one is that he who pays the bills is separate from he who consumes the resources. It's the engineers that consume the resources and the incentives are to deliver code rapidly and deliver code that works well, but they don't really care about paying the bills. And then the CFO office sees the bills and there's a disparity between the two. The reason that creates a problem, a business problem is that the developers uh, will over provision stuff, uh to make sure that everything works and uh, they don't want to get caught in the middle of the night. You know, the bill comes due at the end of the month or into the quarter and then the CFO has smoke coming out of his ears because there's been clawed overruns. Then the reaction happens to all right, let's cut costs. And then, you know, there's an edict that comes down that says everything, reduce everything by 30%. So people go across and give a haircut to everything. So what happens next to systems out of balance? There's allocation resource misallocation and uh, systems start uh, suffering. So the customers become unhappy. And ironically, if you're not provisioned correctly, Not ironically, but maybe understandably, customers start suffering and that leads to a revenue problem down the line if you have too many problems unhappy. So you have to be very careful about how you cut costs and how you apportion resources. So both the revenue side is happy and it costs are happy because it all comes down to product experience and what the customers consume. You >>know, that's something that everyone who's done. Cloud development knows, you know, whose fault is it? You know, it's this fall. But now you can actually see the services you leave a switch open or, you know, I'm oversimplifying it. But, you know, you experiment services, you can the bills can just have massive, you know, overruns and then, and then you got to call the cloud company and you gotta call the engineers and say why did you do this? You got to get a refund or or the bad one. Bad apple could ruin it for everyone as you, as you highlighted over the bigger companies. So I have to ask you mean everyone lives this. How do companies have cost overruns? Is their patterns that you see that you guys wrote software 4-1, automate the obvious ones. Is there is there are certain things that you know always happen. Are there areas that have some indications? So why do, first of all, why do companies have cloud cost overruns? >>That's a great question. And let's start with a bit of history where we came from a pre cloud world, you built your own data centers, which means that you have an upfront Capex cost and you spend the money and you were forced to live within the needs that your data center provided. You really couldn't spend anymore. That provided kind of a predictable expenditure bottle it came in big chunks. But you know what, your budget was going to be four years from now, three years from now. And you built for that with the cloud computing, Your consumption is now on on demand basis and it's api enabled. So the developer can just ask for more resources. So without any kind of tools that tell the developer here is x amount of CPU or X amount of memory that you need for this particular service, that for it to deliver the right uh, performance that for the customer. The developers incentivized to basically give it a lot more than the application needs. Why? Because the developer doesn't want to pick up service tickets. He's incentivizing delivering functionality quickly and moving on to next project, not in optimizing costs. So that creates kind of uh an agency problem that the guy that actually controls how research are consumed is not incentivized to control the consumption of these resources. And we see that across the board in every company, engineers, engineering organization is a separate organization than the financial organization. So the control place is different. The consumption place and it breaks down the patterns are over provisions. And what we want to do is give engineers the tools to consume precisely the right amount of resources for the service level objectives that they have, given that you want a transaction rate of X and the literacy rate of Why here's how you configure your cloud infrastructure. So the application delivers according to the sls with the least possible resources consumed. >>So on this tool you guys have in the software you guys have, how how do you guys go to mark with that, you target the business buyer or the developer themselves and and how do you handle the developers say, I don't want anyone looking over my shoulder. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna have a blank check to do whatever it takes, um how do you guys roll that out because actually the business benefits are significant controlling the budget, I get that. Um how do you guys rolling this out? How do people engage with you? What's your strategy? >>Right. Are there, is the application owner, is the guy that owns the PML for the application? It tends to be a VP level or a senior director person that owns a SAAS platform and he or she is responsible for delivering good products to the market and delivering good financial results to the CFO So in that person of everything is rolled up, but that person will always favor the revenue site, which means consume more resources than you need in order to maximize customer happiness, therefore faster growth and uh they do that while sacrificing the cost side. So by giving the product owner the optimization tools autonomous of optimization tools that Sandy has, we allow him or her to deliver the right experience to the customer, with the right sufficient resources and address both the performance and the cost side of equation simultaneously, >>awesome. Can you talk about the impact c I C D s having in the cloud native computing on the optimization cycle? Um Obviously, you know, shifting left for security, we hear a lot of that, you're hearing a lot of more microservices being spun up, spun down automatically. Uh I'll see kubernetes clusters are going mainstream, you start to see a lot more dynamic uh activity if you if you in these new workflows, what is the impact of these new CSC D cloud? Native computing on the optimization cycle? >>C i c D is there to enable a fast delivery of software features basically. Uh So, you know, we have a combination of get get ups where you can just pull down repositories, libraries, open source projects from left and right. And using glue code, developers can deliver functionality really quick. In fact, microservices are there in service of that capability, deliver functionality quickly by being able to build functional blocks and then through a piece you put everything together. So ci cd is just accelerates the software delivery code. Between the time the boss says, give me an application until the application team plus the devops team plus SRE team puts it out in production. Now we can do this really quickly. The problem is though, nobody optimizes in the process. So when we deliver 1.0 in six months or less, we've done zero in terms of optimization and at one point, oh, becomes a way that we go through QA in many cases, unfortunately. And it also becomes a way that we go through the optimization. The customer screams that you eyes Laghi, you know, the throughput is really slow and we tinker and tinker and tinker and by the time it typically goes through a 12 month cycle of maturation, we get that system stability in the right performance with a I and machine learning that a person has enabled. We can deliver that, we can shrink that time out considerably. In fact, uh you know what we're going to announce in q khan is something that be called Kite storm is the ability to uh install our product and kubernetes environment in roughly 20 minutes and within two days you get the results. So before you have this optimization cycle that was going on for a very long time now that it's frank down and because of Ci Cd, you know, you don't have the luxury of waiting and the system itself can become part of the way of contributing system. The system being the uh ai ml service, that the presiding deliveries can be uh part and parcel of the Ci cd pipeline, that optimizes the code and gives you the right configuration and you get to go. So >>you guys are really getting down and injecting in some uh instrumentation for metadata around key areas. That right. Is that kind of how it's working? Are you getting in there with codes going to watch? Um how was it working under the hood? Can you just give me a quick example of, you know, how this would play out and what people might expect, how it would handle, >>of course. So what the way we optimize application performance is we have to have a metric against which we measure performance. That metric is an S L O service level, objective and in a kubernetes environment, we typically tap into Prometheus, which is the metrics gathering place metrics database for kubernetes workloads and we really focus on red metrics, the rate of transactions, the error rate and the for delay or latency. So we focus on these three metrics and what we have to do is inject a small container, it's an open source container into the application work space that we call that a container. Servo. Servo interacts with Prometheus to get the metrics and then it talks to our back end to tell the M L engine what's happening and then L engine and does this analysis and comes back with a new configuration which then servo implements in a canary instance. So the Canary instances where we run our experiments and we compare it against the main line, Which the application is doing after roughly 20 generations or so. The Bellingen Learns what part of the problem space to focus on in order to optimize to deliver optimal results. And then it very quickly comes to the right set of solutions to try and it tries those inside uh inside the canary instance and when it finds the optimal solution, it gives the recommendation back to the application team or alternatively, when you have enough trust in the tiny you can ought to promote it into mainline that >>gets the learning in there is a great example of some cloud native action. I want to get into some examples with your customer, but before we get there, I want to ask you, since I have you here, if you don't mind, what is cloud native mean these days, because you know, cloud native become kind of much cloud computing, um which essentially go move to the cloud, but as people start developing in the cloud where there's real new benefits, people talk about the word cloud native, could you take a quick minute to define? What is cloud Native, Does that even mean? What does cloud native mean? >>I'll try to give you my understanding government, we could get into a bit of philosophy. Uh Yeah, that's good. But basically cloud Native means it's, your application is built for the cloud and it takes advantages of the inherent benefits that a cloud environment can give you, which means that you can grow and shrink resources on the fly, if you built your application correctly, that you can scale up and scale down, you're a number of instances very quickly and uh, everything has taken advantage of a P I S so initially that was kind of done inside of the environment. Uh AWS Ec two is a perfect example of that. Kubernetes shifted cloud native to container its workload because it allows for rapid, more, rapid deployment and even enables or it takes advantage of a more rapid development cycle as we look forward. Cloud Native is more likely to be a surplus environment where you write functions and the backend systems of the cloud service provider, just give you that capability and you don't have to worry about maintaining and managing a fleet of any sort, whether it's VMS or containers, that's where it's gonna go. Currently we are to contain our space >>so as you start getting into the service molly good land, which we've been playing with, loves that as you get into that, that's going to accelerate more data. So I gotta ask you as you get into more of this this month, I will say monitoring or observe ability, how we want to look at it. You gotta get at the data. This becomes a critical part of solving a lot of problems and also making sure the machine learning is learning the right thing. How do you view that you guys over there? Because I think everyone is like getting that cloud native and it's not hard sell to say that's all good, but we can go back, you know, the expression ships created ships and then you have shipwrecks, you know, there's always a double edged sword here. So what's the downside? If you don't get the data right? >>Uh well, so the for us, the problem is not too much data, it's lack of data. So if you don't get data right is you don't have enough data. And the places where optimization cannot be automated is where the transaction rates are slow, where you don't have enough fruit. But coming into the application and it really becomes difficult to optimize that application with any kind of speed. You have to be able to profile the application long enough to know what moves its needle and in order for you to hit the S. L. O. Targets. So it's not too much data, it's not enough data. That seems to be the problem. And there are a lot of applications that are expensive to run but have a low throughput. And I would uh in all cases actually in every customer environment that have been in, where that's been the case if the application is just over provision, if you have a low throughput environment and it's costing too much, don't use ml to solve it. That's a wrong application of the technology. Just take a sledgehammer and back your resources by 50%, see what happens. And if that thing breaks back it again, until you find the baggage point. >>Exactly for you over prison, you bang it back down again. It's like the old school now with the cloud. Take me through some examples when you guys had some success, obviously you guys are in the right area right now, you're seeing a lot of people looking at this area to do that in some cases like changing the whole data center and respect of their business. But as you get it with customers with the app side, what some successes can you share some of the use cases, what you guys are being successful, your customers can get some examples. >>Yeah. So well known financial software for midsize businesses that that does accounting. It's uh there are customer during a large fleet and this product has been around for a while. It's not a container ice product. This product runs on VMS. Angela is a large component of that. So the problem for this particular vendor has been that they run on heterogeneous fleet that the application has been a along around for a very long time. And as new instance types on AWS have come in, developers have used those. So the fleet itself is quite heterogeneous and depending on the time of the day and what kind of reports are being run by organisations, they, the mix of resources that the applications need are different. So uh when we started analyzing the stack, we started we started looking at three different tiers, we looked at the database level, we looked at the job of mid tier and we looked at the web front end. And uh one of the things that became counterproductive is that m L. Discovered that using for the mid tier using larger instances but fear of a lot for better performance and lower cost and uh typically your gut feel is to go with smaller instances and more of a larger fleet if you would. But in this case, what the ML produced was completely counter intuitive And the net result for the customer was 78% cost reduction while agency went down by 10%. So think about it that you're, the response time is less, uh 10% less but your costs are down almost 80% 78% in this case. And the other are the fact that happened in the job of mitt here is that we improve garbage collection significantly and because whenever garbage collection happens on a JV M it takes a pause and that from a customer perspective it reflects as downtime because the machines are not responding so by tuning garbage collection Andrzej VMS across this very large fleet we were able to recover over 5000 minutes and month across the entire fleet. So uh, these are some substantial savings and this is what the right application of machine learning on a large fleet can do for assess business. >>And so talk about this fleet dynamic, You mentioned several lists. How do you see the future evolving for you guys? Where are you skating to where the puck is? As the expression goes? Um obviously with server list is going to have essentially unlimited fleets potentially That's gonna put a lot of power in the hands of developers. Okay. And people building experiences, What's the next five years look like for you guys? >>So I'm looking at the product from a product perspective, the service market depends on the mercy of the cloud service provider and typically the algorithms that they use. Uh basically they keep very few instances warm for you until you're the rate of api calls goes up and they start they start uh start turning on VMS are containers for you and then the system becomes more responsive over time. One place that we can optimize the service environment is give predictability of what the cyclicality of load is. So we can pre provision those instances and warm up the engine before the loads come into the system always stays responsive. You may have noticed that some of your apps on your phone that when you start them up, they may have a start up like a minute or two. Especially if it's a it's a terror gap. What's happening in those cases that you're starting an api calls goes in containers being started up for you to start up that instance, not enough of our warm to give you that rapid response. And that can lead to customer churn. So by by analyzing what the load on the overall load of the system is and pre provision the system. We can prevent the downtime uh prevent the lag to start up black on the downside. Which when you know when the usage goes down, it doesn't make sense to keep that many instances up. So we can talk to the back in infrastructure and the commission of those VMS in order to make to prevent cost creeps basically. So that's one place that we're thinking about extending our technology. >>So it's like, it's like the classic example where people say, oh during black monday everyone searches to do e commerce. You guys are thinking about it on A level that's a user centric kind of use case where you look at the application and be smart about what the expectation is on any given situation and then flex the resources on that. Is that right? That by getting right? So if it's your example, the app is a good one. If I wanted to load fast, that's the expectation. It better load fast. >>Yes, that's exactly but more romantic. So I use valentine's day and flowers my example. But you know, it doesn't have to be annual cycles. It can be daily cycles or hourly cycles. And all those patterns are learning about by an Ml back in. >>Alright, so I gotta ask you love the, this, this this new concept because most people think auto scaling right? Because that's a server concept. Can auto scale or database. Okay. On a scale up, you're getting down to the point where, okay, we'll keep the engines warm, getting more detailed. How do you explain this versus a concept like auto scaling. Is it the same as a cousins? >>They're they're basically the way they're expressed, it's the same technology but their way there expressed is different. So uh in a cooper native environment, the H. B A is your auto scaler basically in response to the need, response more instances and you get more containers going on. What happens as services? Less environment is you're unaware of the underpinnings that do that scale up for you. But there is an auto Scaler in place that does that scale up for you. So the question becomes that we're in a stack from a customer's perspective, are you talking about if you imagine your instances we're dealing with the H. B. A. If you're managing at the functional level we have to have api calls on the service provider's infrastructure to pre warm up the engine before the load comes. >>I love I love this under the hood is kind of love new dynamics kind of the same wine, new bottle but still computer science, still coding, still cool and relevant to make these experiences great. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation. I really appreciate it. Take a minute to put a plug in for the company. What are you guys doing in terms of status funding scale employees, what are you looking for? And if someone's watching this and there should be a customer of you guys, what what's, what's, what's going on in their world? What tells them that they need to be calling you? >>Yeah, so we're serious. Dave we've had the privilege of uh, our we've been privileged by having a very good success with large enterprises. Uh, if you go to our website, you'll see the logos of who we have, we will be at Q khan and there were going to be actively targeting the mid market or smaller kubernetes instances, as I mentioned, it's gonna take about 20 minutes to get started and we'll show the results in two hours. And our goal is for our customers to deliver the best user experience in terms of performance, reliability. Uh, so that they, they delight their customers in return and they do so without breaking the bank. So deliver excellent products, do it at the most efficient way possible, deliver a good financial results for your stakeholders. This is what we do. So we encourage anybody who is running a SAS company to come and take a look at us because we think we can help them and we can accelerate there. The growth at the lower cost >>and the last thing people need is have someone coming breathing down their necks saying, hey, we're getting overcharged. Why are you guys screwing up when they're not? They're trying to make a great experience. And I think this is kind of where people really want to do push the envelope and not have to go back and revisit the cost overruns, which if it's actually a good sign if you get some cost overruns here and there because you're experimenting. But again, you don't want to get out of control. >>You don't want to be a visual like the U. S. Debt. >>Exactly. I'm here. Thank you for coming on. Great. We'll see a coupe con. The key will be there in person is a hybrid event. So uh, coupon is gonna be awesome and thanks for coming on the key. Appreciate it. >>John is a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. >>Okay. I'm john fryer with acute here in Palo alto California remote interview with upsetting hot startup series. I'm sure they're gonna do well in the right spot in the market. Really well poisoned cloud Native. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is braking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Database is the heart of enterprise computing. The market is both exploding and it's evolving. The major force is transforming the space include Cloud and data, of course, but also new workloads, advanced memory and IO capabilities, new processor types, a massive push towards simplicity, new data sharing and governance models, and a spate of venture investment. Snowflake stands out as the gold standard for operational excellence and go to market execution. The company has attracted the attention of customers, investors, and competitors and everyone from entrenched players to upstarts once in the act. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll share our most current thinking on the database marketplace and dig into Snowflake's execution. Some of its challenges and we'll take a look at how others are making moves to solve customer problems and try to get a piece of the growing database pie. Let's look at some of the factors that are driving market momentum. First, customers want lower license costs. They want simplicity. They want to avoid database sprawl. They want to run anywhere and manage new data types. These needs often are divergent and they pull vendors and technologies in different direction. It's really hard for any one platform to accommodate every customer need. The market is large and it's growing. Gardner has it at around 60 to 65 billion with a CAGR of somewhere around 20% over the next five years. But the market, as we know it is being redefined. Traditionally, databases have served two broad use cases, OLTP or transactions and reporting like data warehouses. But a diversity of workloads and new architectures and innovations have given rise to a number of new types of databases to accommodate all these diverse customer needs. Many billions have been spent over the last several years in venture money and it continues to pour in. Let me just give you some examples. Snowflake prior to its IPO, raised around 1.4 billion. Redis Labs has raised more than 1/2 billion dollars so far, Cockroach Labs, more than 350 million, Couchbase, 250 million, SingleStore formerly MemSQL, 238 million, Yellowbrick Data, 173 million. And if you stretch the definition of database a little bit to including low-code or no-code, Airtable has raised more than 600 million. And that's by no means a complete list. Now, why is all this investment happening? Well, in a large part, it's due to the TAM. The TAM is huge and it's growing and it's being redefined. Just how big is this market? Let's take a look at a chart that we've shown previously. We use this chart to Snowflakes TAM, and it focuses mainly on the analytics piece, but we'll use it here to really underscore the market potential. So the actual database TAM is larger than this, we think. Cloud and Cloud-native technologies have changed the way we think about databases. Virtually 100% of the database players that they're are in the market have pivoted to a Cloud first strategy. And many like Snowflake, they're pretty dogmatic and have a Cloud only strategy. Databases has historically been very difficult to manage, they're really sensitive to latency. So that means they require a lot of tuning. Cloud allows you to throw virtually infinite resources on demand and attack performance problems and scale very quickly, minimizing the complexity and tuning nuances. This idea, this layer of data as a service we think of it as a staple of digital transformation. Is this layer that's forming to support things like data sharing across ecosystems and the ability to build data products or data services. It's a fundamental value proposition of Snowflake and one of the most important aspects of its offering. Snowflake tracks a metric called edges, which are external connections in its data Cloud. And it claims that 15% of its total shared connections are edges and that's growing at 33% quarter on quarter. This notion of data sharing is changing the way people think about data. We use terms like data as an asset. This is the language of the 2010s. We don't share our assets with others, do we? No, we protect them, we secure or them, we even hide them. But we absolutely don't want to share those assets but we do want to share our data. I had a conversation recently with Forrester analyst, Michelle Goetz. And we both agreed we're going to scrub data as an asset from our phrasiology. Increasingly, people are looking at sharing as a way to create, as I said, data products or data services, which can be monetized. This is an underpinning of Zhamak Dehghani's concept of a data mesh, make data discoverable, shareable and securely governed so that we can build data products and data services that can be monetized. This is where the TAM just explodes and the market is redefining. And we think is in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Let's talk a little bit about the diversity of offerings in the marketplace. Again, databases used to be either transactional or analytic. The bottom lines and top lines. And this chart here describe those two but the types of databases, you can see the middle of mushrooms, just looking at this list, blockchain is of course a specialized type of database and it's also finding its way into other database platforms. Oracle is notable here. Document databases that support JSON and graph data stores that assist in visualizing data, inference from multiple different sources. That's is one of the ways in which adtech has taken off and been so effective. Key Value stores, log databases that are purpose-built, machine learning to enhance insights, spatial databases to help build the next generation of products, the next automobile, streaming databases to manage real time data flows and time series databases. We might've missed a few, let us know if you think we have, but this is a kind of pretty comprehensive list that is somewhat mind boggling when you think about it. And these unique requirements, they've spawned tons of innovation and companies. Here's a small subset on this logo slide. And this is by no means an exhaustive list, but you have these companies here which have been around forever like Oracle and IBM and Teradata and Microsoft, these are the kind of the tier one relational databases that have matured over the years. And they've got properties like atomicity, consistency, isolation, durability, what's known as ACID properties, ACID compliance. Some others that you may or may not be familiar with, Yellowbrick Data, we talked about them earlier. It's going after the best price, performance and analytics and optimizing to take advantage of both hybrid installations and the latest hardware innovations. SingleStore, as I said, formerly known as MemSQL is a very high end analytics and transaction database, supports mixed workloads, extremely high speeds. We're talking about trillions of rows per second that could be ingested in query. Couchbase with hybrid transactions and analytics, Redis Labs, open source, no SQL doing very well, as is Cockroach with distributed SQL, MariaDB with its managed MySQL, Mongo and document database has a lot of momentum, EDB, which supports open source Postgres. And if you stretch the definition a bit, Splunk, for log database, why not? ChaosSearch, really interesting startup that leaves data in S-3 and is going after simplifying the ELK stack, New Relic, they have a purpose-built database for application performance management and we probably could have even put Workday in the mix as it developed a specialized database for its apps. Of course, we can't forget about SAP with how not trying to pry customers off of Oracle. And then the big three Cloud players, AWS, Microsoft and Google with extremely large portfolios of database offerings. The spectrum of products in this space is very wide, with you've got AWS, which I think we're up to like 16 database offerings, all the way to Oracle, which has like one database to do everything not withstanding MySQL because it owns MySQL got that through the Sun Acquisition. And it recently, it made some innovations there around the heat wave announcement. But essentially Oracle is investing to make its database, Oracle database run any workload. While AWS takes the approach of the right tool for the right job and really focuses on the primitives for each database. A lot of ways to skin a cat in this enormous and strategic market. So let's take a look at the spending data for the names that make it into the ETR survey. Not everybody we just mentioned will be represented because they may not have quite the market presence of the ends in the survey, but ETR that capture a pretty nice mix of players. So this chart here, it's one of the favorite views that we like to share quite often. It shows the database players across the 1500 respondents in the ETR survey this past quarter and it measures their net score. That's spending momentum and is shown on the vertical axis and market share, which is the pervasiveness in the data set is on the horizontal axis. The Snowflake is notable because it's been hovering around 80% net score since the survey started picking them up. Anything above 40%, that red line there, is considered by us to be elevated. Microsoft and AWS, they also stand out because they have both market presence and they have spending velocity with their platforms. Oracle is very large but it doesn't have the spending momentum in the survey because nearly 30% of Oracle installations are spending less, whereas only 22% are spending more. Now as a caution, this survey doesn't measure dollar spent and Oracle will be skewed toward the big customers with big budgets. So you got to consider that caveat when evaluating this data. IBM is in a similar position although its market share is not keeping up with Oracle's. Google, they've got great tech especially with BigQuery and it has elevated momentum. So not a bad spot to be in although I'm sure it would like to be closer to AWS and Microsoft on the horizontal axis, so it's got some work to do there. And some of the others we mentioned earlier, like MemSQL, Couchbase. As shown MemSQL here, they're now SingleStore. Couchbase, Reddis, Mongo, MariaDB, all very solid scores on the vertical axis. Cloudera just announced that it was selling to private equity and that will hopefully give it some time to invest in this platform and get off the quarterly shot clock. MapR was acquired by HPE and it's part of HPE's Ezmeral platform, their data platform which doesn't yet have the market presence in the survey. Now, something that is interesting in looking at in Snowflakes earnings last quarter, is this laser focused on large customers. This is a hallmark of Frank Slootman and Mike Scarpelli who I know they don't have a playbook but they certainly know how to go whale hunting. So this chart isolates the data that we just showed you to the global 1000. Note that both AWS and Snowflake go up higher on the X-axis meaning large customers are spending at a faster rate for these two companies. The previous chart had an end of 161 for Snowflake, and a 77% net score. This chart shows the global 1000, in the end there for Snowflake is 48 accounts and the net score jumps to 85%. We're not going to show it here but when you isolate the ETR data, nice you can just cut it, when you isolate it on the fortune 1000, the end for Snowflake goes to 59 accounts in the data set and Snowflake jumps another 100 basis points in net score. When you cut the data by the fortune 500, the Snowflake N goes to 40 accounts and the net score jumps another 200 basis points to 88%. And when you isolate on the fortune 100 accounts is only 18 there but it's still 18, their net score jumps to 89%, almost 90%. So it's very strong confirmation that there's a proportional relationship between larger accounts and spending momentum in the ETR data set. So Snowflakes large account strategy appears to be working. And because we think Snowflake is sticky, this probably is a good sign for the future. Now we've been talking about net score, it's a key measure in the ETR data set, so we'd like to just quickly remind you what that is and use Snowflake as an example. This wheel chart shows the components of net score, that lime green is new adoptions. 29% of the customers in the ETR dataset that are new to Snowflake. That's pretty impressive. 50% of the customers are spending more, that's the forest green, 20% are flat, that's the gray, and only 1%, the pink, are spending less. And 0% zero or replacing Snowflake, no defections. What you do here to get net scores, you subtract the red from the green and you get a net score of 78%. Which is pretty sick and has been sick as in good sick and has been steady for many, many quarters. So that's how the net score methodology works. And remember, it typically takes Snowflake customers many months like six to nine months to start consuming it's services at the contracted rate. So those 29% new adoptions, they're not going to kick into high gear until next year, so that bodes well for future revenue. Now, it's worth taking a quick snapshot at Snowflakes most recent quarter, there's plenty of stuff out there that you can you can google and get a summary but let's just do a quick rundown. The company's product revenue run rate is now at 856 million they'll surpass $1 billion on a run rate basis this year. The growth is off the charts very high net revenue retention. We've explained that before with Snowflakes consumption pricing model, they have to account for retention differently than what a SaaS company. Snowflake added 27 net new $1 million accounts in the quarter and claims to have more than a hundred now. It also is just getting its act together overseas. Slootman says he's personally going to spend more time in Europe, given his belief, that the market is huge and they can disrupt it and of course he's from the continent. He was born there and lived there and gross margins expanded, do in a large part to renegotiation of its Cloud costs. Welcome back to that in a moment. Snowflake it's also moving from a product led growth company to one that's more focused on core industries. Interestingly media and entertainment is one of the largest along with financial services and it's several others. To me, this is really interesting because Disney's example that Snowflake often puts in front of its customers as a reference. And it seems to me to be a perfect example of using data and analytics to both target customers and also build so-called data products through data sharing. Snowflake has to grow its ecosystem to live up to its lofty expectations and indications are that large SIS are leaning in big time. Deloitte cross the $100 million in deal flow in the quarter. And the balance sheet's looking good. Thank you very much with $5 billion in cash. The snarks are going to focus on the losses, but this is all about growth. This is a growth story. It's about customer acquisition, it's about adoption, it's about loyalty and it's about lifetime value. Now, as I said at the IPO, and I always say this to young people, don't buy a stock at the IPO. There's probably almost always going to be better buying opportunities ahead. I'm not always right about that, but I often am. Here's a chart of Snowflake's performance since IPO. And I have to say, it's held up pretty well. It's trading above its first day close and as predicted there were better opportunities than day one but if you have to make a call from here. I mean, don't take my stock advice, do your research. Snowflake they're priced to perfection. So any disappointment is going to be met with selling. You saw that the day after they beat their earnings last quarter because their guidance in revenue growth,. Wasn't in the triple digits, it sort of moderated down to the 80% range. And they pointed, they pointed to a new storage compression feature that will lower customer costs and consequently, it's going to lower their revenue. I swear, I think that that before earnings calls, Scarpelli sits back he's okay, what kind of creative way can I introduce the dampen enthusiasm for the guidance. Now I'm not saying lower storage costs will translate into lower revenue for a period of time. But look at dropping storage prices, customers are always going to buy more, that's the way the storage market works. And stuff like did allude to that in all fairness. Let me introduce something that people in Silicon Valley are talking about, and that is the Cloud paradox for SaaS companies. And what is that? I was a clubhouse room with Martin Casado of Andreessen when I first heard about this. He wrote an article with Sarah Wang, calling it to question the merits of SaaS companies sticking with Cloud at scale. Now the basic premise is that for startups in early stages of growth, the Cloud is a no brainer for SaaS companies, but at scale, the cost of Cloud, the Cloud bill approaches 50% of the cost of revenue, it becomes an albatross that stifles operating leverage. Their conclusion ended up saying that as much as perhaps as much as the back of the napkin, they admitted that, but perhaps as much as 1/2 a trillion dollars in market cap is being vacuumed away by the hyperscalers that could go to the SaaS providers as cost savings from repatriation. And that Cloud repatriation is an inevitable path for large SaaS companies at scale. I was particularly interested in this as I had recently put on a post on the Cloud repatriation myth. I think in this instance, there's some merit to their conclusions. But I don't think it necessarily bleeds into traditional enterprise settings. But for SaaS companies, maybe service now has it right running their own data centers or maybe a hybrid approach to hedge bets and save money down the road is prudent. What caught my attention in reading through some of the Snowflake docs, like the S-1 in its most recent 10-K were comments regarding long-term purchase commitments and non-cancelable contracts with Cloud companies. And the companies S-1, for example, there was disclosure of $247 million in purchase commitments over a five plus year period. And the company's latest 10-K report, that same line item jumped to 1.8 billion. Now Snowflake is clearly managing these costs as it alluded to when its earnings call. But one has to wonder, at some point, will Snowflake follow the example of say Dropbox which Andreessen used in his blog and start managing its own IT? Or will it stick with the Cloud and negotiate hard? Snowflake certainly has the leverage. It has to be one of Amazon's best partners and customers even though it competes aggressively with Redshift but on the earnings call, CFO Scarpelli said, that Snowflake was working on a new chip technology to dramatically increase performance. What the heck does that mean? Is this Snowflake is not becoming a hardware company? So I going to have to dig into that a little bit and find out what that it means. I'm guessing, it means that it's taking advantage of ARM-based processes like graviton, which many ISVs ar allowing their software to run on that lower cost platform. Or maybe there's some deep dark in the weeds secret going on inside Snowflake, but I doubt it. We're going to leave all that for there for now and keep following this trend. So it's clear just in summary that Snowflake they're the pace setter in this new exciting world of data but there's plenty of room for others. And they still have a lot to prove. For instance, one customer in ETR, CTO round table express skepticism that Snowflake will live up to its hype because its success is going to lead to more competition from well-established established players. This is a common theme you hear it all the time. It's pretty easy to reach that conclusion. But my guess is this the exact type of narrative that fuels Slootman and sucked him back into this game of Thrones. That's it for now, everybody. Remember, these episodes they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search braking analysis podcast and please subscribe to series. Check out ETR his website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikinbon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me, Email is David.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at DVelante on Twitter or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Braking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Intel's big announcement this week underscores the threat that the United States faces from China. The US needs to lead in semiconductor design and manufacturing. And that lead is slipping because Intel has been fumbling the ball over the past several years, a mere two months into the job, new CEO Pat Gelsinger wasted no time in setting a new course for perhaps, the most strategically important American technology company. We believe that Gelsinger has only shown us part of his plan. This is the beginning of a long and highly complex journey. Despite Gelsinger's clear vision, his deep understanding of technology and execution ethos, in order to regain its number one position, Intel we believe we'll need to have help from partners, competitors and very importantly, the US government. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we'll peel the onion Intel's announcement of this week and explain why we're perhaps not as sanguine as was Wall Street on Intel's prospects. And we'll lay out what we think needs to take place for Intel to once again, become top gun and for us to gain more confidence. By the way this is the first time we're broadcasting live with Braking Analysis. We're broadcasting on the CUBE handles on Twitch, Periscope and YouTube and going forward we'll do this regularly as a live program and we'll bring in the community perspective into the conversation through chat. Now you may recall that in January, we kind of dismissed analysis that said Intel didn't have to make any major strategic changes to its business when they brought on Pat Gelsinger. Rather we said the exact opposite. Our view at time was that the root of Intel's problems could be traced to the fact that it wasn't no longer the volume leader. Because mobile volumes dwarf those of x86. As such we said that Intel couldn't go up the learning curve for next gen technologies as fast as its competitors and it needed to shed its dogma of being highly vertically integrated. We said Intel needed to more heavily leverage outsourced foundries. But more specifically, we suggested that in order for Intel to regain its volume lead, it needed to, we said at the time, spin out its manufacturing, create a joint venture sure with a volume leader, leveraging Intel's US manufacturing presence. This, we still believe with some slight refreshes to our thinking based on what Gelsinger has announced. And we'll talk about that today. Now specifically there were three main pieces and a lot of details to Intel's announcement. Gelsinger made it clear that Intel is not giving up its IDM or integrated device manufacturing ethos. He called this IDM 2.0, which comprises Intel's internal manufacturing, leveraging external Foundries and creating a new business unit called Intel Foundry Services. It's okay. Gelsinger said, "We are not giving up on integrated manufacturing." However, we think this is somewhat nuanced. Clearly Intel can't, won't and shouldn't give up on IDM. However, we believe Intel is entering a new era where it's giving designers more choice. This was not explicitly stated. However we feel like Intel's internal manufacturing arm will have increased pressure to serve its designers in a more competitive manner. We've already seen this with Intel finally embracing EUV or extreme ultraviolet lithography. Gelsinger basically said that Intel didn't lean into EUV early on and that it created more complexity in its 10 nanometer process, which dominoed into seven nanometer and as you know the rest of the story and Intel's delays. But since mid last year, it's embraced the technology. Now as a point of reference, Samsung started applying EUV for its seven nanometer technology in 2018. And it began shipping in early 2020. So as you can see, it takes years to get this technology into volume production. The point is that Intel realizes it needs to be more competitive. And we suspect, it will give more freedom to designers to leverage outsource manufacturing. But Gelsinger clearly signaled that IDM is not going away. But the really big news is that Intel is setting up a new division with a separate PNL that's going to report directly to Pat. Essentially it's hanging out a shingle and saying, we're open for business to make your chips. Intel is building two new Fabs in Arizona and investing $20 billion as part of this initiative. Now well Intel has tried this before earlier last decade. Gelsinger says that this time we're serious and we're going to do it right. We'll come back to that. This organizational move while not a spin out or a joint venture, it's part of the recipe that we saw as necessary for Intel to be more competitive. Let's talk about why Intel is doing this. Look at lots has changed in the world of semiconductors. When you think about it back when Pat was at Intel in the '90s, Intel was the volume leader. It crushed the competition with x86. And the competition at the time was coming from risk chips. And when Apple changed the game with iPod and iPhone and iPad, the volume equation flipped to mobile. And that led to big changes in the industry. Specifically, the world started to separate design from manufacturing. We now see firms going from design to tape out in 12 months versus taking three years. A good example is Tesla and his deal with ARM and Samsung. And what's happened is Intel has gone from number one in Foundry in terms of clock speed, wafer density, volume, lowest cost, highest margin to falling behind. TSMC, Samsung and alternative processor competitors like NVIDIA. Volume is still the maker of kings in this business. That hasn't changed and it confers advantage in terms of cost, speed and efficiency. But ARM wafer volumes, we estimate are 10x those of x86. That's a big change since Pat left Intel more than a decade ago. There's also a major chip shortage today. But you know this time, it feels a little different than the typical semiconductor boom and bust cycles. Semiconductor consumption is entering a new era and new use cases emerging from automobiles to factories, to every imaginable device piece of equipment, infrastructure, silicon is everywhere. But the biggest threat of all is China. China wants to be self-sufficient in semiconductors by 2025. It's putting approximately $60 billion into new chip Fabs, and there's more to come. China wants to be the new economic leader of the world and semiconductors are critical to that goal. Now there are those poopoo the China threat. This recent article from Scott Foster lays out some really good information. But the one thing that caught our attention is a statement that China's semiconductor industry is nowhere near being a major competitor in the global market. Let alone an existential threat to the international order and the American way of life. I think Scotty is stuck in the engine room and can't see the forest of the trees, wake up. Sure. You can say China is way behind. Let's take an example. NAND. Today China is at about 64 3D layers whereas Micron they're at 172. By 2022 China's going to be at 128. Micron, it's going to be well over 200. So what's the big deal? We say talk to us in 2025 because we think China will be at parody. That's just one example. Now the type of thinking that says don't worry about China and semi's reminds me of the epic lecture series that Clay Christiansen gave as a visiting professor at Oxford University on the history of, and the economics of the steel industry. Now if you haven't watched this series, you should. Basically Christiansen took the audience through the dynamics of steel production. And he asked the question, "Who told the steel manufacturers that gross margin was the number one measure of profitability? Was it God?" he joked. His point was, when new entrance came into the market in the '70s, they were bottom feeders going after the low margin, low quality, easiest to make rebar sector. And the incumbents nearly pulled back and their mix shifted to higher margin products and their gross margins went up and life was good. Until they lost the next layer. And then the next, and then the next, until it was game over. Now, one of the things that got lost in Pat's big announcement on the 23rd of March was that Intel guided the street below consensus on revenue and earnings. But the stock went up the next day. Now when asked about gross margin in the Q&A segment of the announcement, yes, gross margin is a if not the key metric in semi's in terms of measuring profitability. When asked Intel CFO George Davis explained that with the uptick in PCs last year there was a product shift to the lower margin PC sector and that put pressure on gross margins. It was a product mix thing. And revenue because PC chips are less expensive than server chips was affected as were margins. Now we shared this chart in our last Intel update showing, spending momentum over time for Dell's laptop business from ETR. And you can see in the inset, the unit growth and the market data from IDC, yes, Dell's laptop business is growing, everybody's laptop business is growing. Thank you COVID. But you see the numbers from IDC, Gartner, et cetera. Now, as we pointed out last time, PC volumes had peaked in 2011 and that's when the long arm of rights law began to eat into Intel's dominance. Today ARM wafer production as we said is far greater than Intel's and well, you know the story. Here's the irony, the very bucket that conferred volume adventures to Intel PCs, yes, it had a slight uptick last year, which was great news for Dell. But according to Intel it pulled down its margins. The point is Intel is loving the high end of the market because it's higher margin and more profitable. I wonder what Clay Christensen would say to that. Now there's more to this story. Intel's CFO blame the supply constraints on Intel's revenue and profit pressures yet AMD's revenue and profits are booming. So RTSMCs. Only Intel can't seem to thrive when there's this massive chip shortage. Now let's get back to Pat's announcement. Intel is for sure, going forward investing $20 billion in two new US-based fabrication facilities. This chart shows Intel's investments in US R&D, US CapEx and the job growth that's created as a result, as well as R&D and CapEx investments in Ireland and Israel. Now we added the bar on the right hand side from a Wall Street journal article that compares TSMC CapEx in the dark green to that of Intel and the light green. You can see TSMC surpass the CapEx investment of Intel in 2015, and then Intel took the lead back again. And in 2017 was, hey it on in 2018. But last year TSMC took the lead, again. And appears to be widening that lead quite substantially. Leading us to our conclusion that this will not be enough. These moves by Intel will not be enough. They need to do more. And a big part of this announcement was partnerships and packaging. Okay. So here's where it gets interesting. Intel, as you may know was late to the party with SOC system on a chip. And it's going to use its packaging prowess to try and leap frog the competition. SOC bundles things like GPU, NPU, DSUs, accelerators caches on a single chip. So better use the real estate if you will. Now Intel wants to build system on package which will dis-aggregate memory from compute. Now remember today, memory is very poorly utilized. What Intel is going to do is to create a package with literally thousands of nodes comprising small processors, big processors, alternative processors, ARM processors, custom Silicon all sharing a pool of memory. This is a huge innovation and we'll come back to this in a moment. Now as part of the announcement, Intel trotted out some big name customers, prospects and even competitors that it wants to turn into prospects and customers. Amazon, Google, Satya Nadella gave a quick talk from Microsoft to Cisco. All those guys are designing their own chips as does Ericsson and look even Qualcomm is on the list, a competitor. Intel wants to earn the right to make chips for these firms. Now many on the list like Microsoft and Google they'd be happy to do so because they want more competition. And Qualcomm, well look if Intel can do a good job and be a strong second sourced, why not? Well, one reason is they compete aggressively with Intel but we don't like Intel so much but it's very possible. But the two most important partners on this slide are one IBM and two, the US government. Now many people were going to gloss over IBM in this announcement, but we think it's one of the most important pieces of the puzzle. Yes. IBM and semiconductors. IBM actually has some of the best semiconductor technology in the world. It's got great architecture and is two to three years ahead of Intel with POWER10. Yes, POWER. IBM is the world's leader in terms of dis-aggregating compute from memory with the ability to scale to thousands of nodes, sound familiar? IBM leads in power density, efficiency and it can put more stuff closer together. And it's looking now at a 20x increase in AI inference performance. We think Pat has been thinking about this for a while and he said, how can I leave leap frog system on chip. And we think he thought and said, I'll use our outstanding process manufacturing and I'll tap IBM as a partner for R&D and architectural chips to build the next generation of systems that are more flexible and performant than anything that's out there. Now look, this is super high end stuff. And guess who needs really high end massive supercomputing capabilities? Well, the US military. Pat said straight up, "We've talked to the government and we're honored to be competing for the government/military chips boundary." I mean, look Intel in my view was going to have to fall down into face not win this business. And by making the commitment to Foundry Services we think they will get a huge contract from the government, as large, perhaps as $10 billion or more to build a secure government Foundry and serve the military for decades to come. Now Pat was specifically asked in the Q&A section is this Foundry strategy that you're embarking on viable without the help of the US government? Kind of implying that it was a handout or a bailout. And Pat of course said all the right things. He said, "This is the right thing for Intel. Independent of the government, we haven't received any commitment or subsidies or anything like that from the US government." Okay, cool. But they have had conversations and I have no doubt, and Pat confirmed this, that those conversations were very, very positive that Intel should head in this direction. Well, we know what's happening here. The US government wants Intel to win. It needs Intel to win and its participation greatly increases the probability of success. But unfortunately, we still don't think it's enough for Intel to regain its number one position. Let's look at that in a little bit more detail. The headwinds for Intel are many. Look it can't just flick a switch and catch up on manufacturing leadership. It's going to take four years. And lots can change in that time. It tells market momentum as well as we pointed out earlier is headed in the wrong direction from a financial perspective. Moreover, where is the volume going to come from? It's going to take years for Intel to catch up for ARMS if it never can. And it's going to have to fight to win that business from its current competitors. Now I have no doubt. It will fight hard under Pat's excellent leadership. But the Foundry business is different. Consider this, Intel's annual CapEx expenditures, if you divide that by their yearly revenue it comes out to about 20% of revenue. TSMC spends 50% of its revenue each year on CapEx. This is a different animal, very service oriented. So look, we're not pounding the table saying Intel's worst days are over. We don't think they are. Now, there are some positives, I'm showing those in the right-hand side. Pat Gelsinger was born for this job. He proved that the other day, even though we already knew it. I have never seen him more excited and more clearheaded. And we agreed that the chip demand dynamic is going to have legs in this decade and beyond with Digital, Edge, AI and new use cases that are going to power that demand. And Intel is too strategic to fail. And the US government has huge incentives to make sure that it succeeds. But it's still not enough in our opinion because like the steel manufacturers Intel's real advantage today is increasingly in the high end high margin business. And without volume, China is going to win this battle. So we continue to believe that a new joint venture is going to emerge. Here's our prediction. We see a triumvirate emerging in a new joint venture that is led by Intel. It brings x86, that volume associated with that. It brings cash, manufacturing prowess, R&D. It brings global resources, so much more than we show in this chart. IBM as we laid out brings architecture, it's R&D, it's longstanding relationships. It's deal flow, it can funnel its business to the joint venture as can of course, parts of Intel. We see IBM getting a nice licensed deal from Intel and or the JV. And it has to get paid for its contribution and we think it'll also get a sweet deal and the manufacturing fees from this Intel Foundry. But it's still not enough to beat China. Intel needs volume. And that's where Samsung comes in. It has the volume with ARM, has the experience and a complete offering across products. We also think that South Korea is a more geographically appealing spot in the globe than Taiwan with its proximity to China. Not to mention that TSMC, it doesn't need Intel. It's already number one. Intel can get a better deal from number two, Samsung. And together these three we think, in this unique structure could give it a chance to become number one by the end of the decade or early in the 2030s. We think what's happening is our take, is that Intel is going to fight hard to win that government business, put itself in a stronger negotiating position and then cut a deal with some supplier. We think Samsung makes more sense than anybody else. Now finally, we want to leave you with some comments and some thoughts from the community. First, I want to thank David Foyer. His decade plus of work and knowledge of this industry along with this collaboration made this work possible. His fingerprints are all over this research in case you didn't notice. And next I want to share comments from two of my colleagues. The first is Serbjeet Johal. He sent this to me last night. He said, "We are not in our grandfather's compute era anymore. Compute is getting spread into every aspect of our economy and lives. The use of processors is getting more and more specialized and will intensify with the rise in edge computing, AI inference and new workloads." Yes, I totally agree with Sarbjeet. And that's the dynamic which Pat is betting and betting big. But the bottom line is summed up by my friend and former IDC mentor, Dave Moschella. He says, "This is all about China. History suggests that there are very few second acts, you know other than Microsoft and Apple. History also will say that the antitrust pressures that enabled AMD to thrive are the ones, the very ones that starved Intel's cash. Microsoft made the shift it's PC software cash cows proved impervious to competition. The irony is the same government that attacked Intel's monopoly now wants to be Intel's protector because of China. Perhaps it's a cautionary tale to those who want to break up big tech." Wow. What more can I add to that? Okay. That's it for now. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes are all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search for Braking Analysis podcasts and you can always connect with me on Twitter @dvellante or email me at david.vellante, siliconangle.com As always I appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and in clubhouse please follow me so that you're notified when we start a room and start riffing on these topics. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante snowflake's eye-popping ipo this week has the industry buzzing we have had dozens and dozens of inbound pr from firms trying to hook us offering perspectives on the snowflake ipo so they can pitch us on their latest and greatest product people are pumped and why not an event like this doesn't happen very often hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll give you our take on the snowflake ipo and address the many questions that we've been getting on the topic i'm also going to discuss at the end of this segment an angle for getting in on the ground floor and investments which is not for the faint of heart but it's something that i believe is worth talking about now let's first talk about the hottest ipo in software industry history first i want to say congratulations to the many people at snowflake you know the big hitters yeah they're all the news slootman mooglia spicer buffett benioff even scarpelli interestingly you know you don't hear much about the founders they're quite humble and we're going to talk about that in some future episodes but they created snowflake they had the vision and the smarts to bring in operators that could get the company to this point so awesome for them but you know i'm especially happy for the rank and file and the many snowflake people where an event like this it really can be life-changing versus the billionaires on the leaderboard so fantastic for you okay but let's get into the madness as you know by now snowflake ipod at a price of 120. now unless you knew a guy he paid around 245 at the open that's if you got in otherwise you bought at a higher price so you kind of just held your nose and made the trade i guess you know but snowflakes value it went from 33 billion to more than 80 billion in a matter of minutes now there's a lot of finger pointing going on this is this issue that people are claiming that it was underpriced and snowflake left four billion dollars on the table please stop that's just crazy to me snowflakes balance sheet is in great shape thanks to this offering and you know i'm not sure jamming later stage investors even more would have been the right thing to do this was a small float i think it was around 10 percent of the company so you would expect a sharp uptick on day one i had predicted a doubling to a 66 billion dollar valuation and it ended up around 70. now the big question that we now get is is this a fair valuation and can snowflake grow into its value we'll address this in more detail but the short answer is snowflake is overvalued in my opinion right now but it can grow into its valuation and of course as always they're going to be challenges now the other comment we get is yeah but the company is losing tons of money and i say no kidding that's why they're so valuable we've been saying for years that the street right now is rewarding growth because they understand that to compete in software you need to have massive scale so i'm not worried in the least about snowflakes bottom line not yet eventually i'm going to pay much closer attention to operating cash flow but right now i want to see growth i want to see them grow into their valuation now the other common question we get is should i buy when should i buy what are the risks and can snowflake compete with the biggest cloud vendors i'll say this before we get into it and i've said before look it's it's very rare that you're not going to get better buying opportunities than day one of an ipo and i think in this case you will i remember back in 2015 it was i think it was the first calendar for quarter and servicenow missed its earnings and the stock got hit and we had the opportunity to interview frank slootman then ceo of servicenow right after that and i think it's instructive to hear what he said let's listen roll the clip well yeah i think that a lot of the high-flying cloud companies and obviously we're one of them you know we're we're priced to perfection right um and that's that's not an easy place to be for uh for for anybody and you know we're not really focused on that it's it's this is a marathon you know every quarter is one mile marker you can't get too excited about you know one versus the other we're really pacing ourselves we're building you know an enterprise that's going to be here for for a long time you know and after that we saw the stock drop as low as 50 today servicenow is a 450 stock so my point is that snowflake like servicenow is going to be priced to perfection and there will be bumps in the road possibly macro factors or other and if you're a believer you'll have opportunities to get in so be patient now finally i'm going to make some comments later but i'll give you the bumper sticker right now i mean i calculated the weighted average price that the insiders paid on the the s1 that they paid for snowflake and it came out to around six dollars a share and i heard somebody say on tv it was five dollars but my weighted average math got me to six dollars regardless on day one of the ipo the insiders made a 50x return on their investment if you bought on day one you're probably losing some money or maybe about even and there are some ground floor opportunities that exist that are complicated and may be risky but if you're young and motivated or older and have some time to research i think you'll be interested in what i have to say later on all right let's compare snowflake to some other companies on a valuation basis this ought to be interesting so this chart shows some high flyers as compared to snowflake we show the company the trailing 12-month revenue the market cap at the close of the 16th which is the day that snowflake ipod and then we calculate and sort the data on the revenue multiple of the trailing 12 months and the last column is the year-on-year growth rate of the last quarter and i used trailing 12 months because it's simple and it's easy to understand and it makes the revenue multiple bigger so it's more dramatic and many prefer to use a forward revenue uh but that's why i put the growth rate there you can pick your own projected revenue growth and and do the math yourself so let's start with snowflake 400 million dollars in revenue and that's based on a newish pricing model of consumption not a sas subscription that locks you in for a year or two years or three years i love this model because it's true cloud and i've talked about it a while so for a while so i'm not going to dwell on it today but you can see the trailing 12-month revenue multiple is massive and the growth rate is 120 which is very very impressive for a company this size zoom we put zoom in the chart just because why not and and the growth grade is sick so so who knows how that correlates to the revenue multiple but as you can see snowflake actually tops the zoom frothiness on that metric now maybe zoom is undervalued i should take that back let's see i think crowdstrike is really interesting here and as a company that we've been following and talking about quite a bit in my last security breaking analysis they were at a 65 x trailing 12-month revenue multiple and you see how that's jumped since they reported and they beat expectations but they're similar in size to snowflake with a slower growth rate in a lower revenue multiple so there's some correlation between that growth rate and the revenue multiple sort of now snowflake pulled back on day two it was down early uh this morning as you would expect with both the market being off and maybe some profit taking you know if you got in an allocation at 120 why not take some profits and play with house money so snowflake's value is hovering today it actually bounced back is hovering today you're just under 70 billion and that that brings the revenue multiple down a bit but it's still very elevated now if you project 2x growth let's say 100 for next year and the stock stays in some kind of range which i think it likely will you could see snowflake coming down to crowdstrike revenue multiples in 12 months it'll depend of course on snowflakes earnings reports which i'm sure are going to beat estimates for the next several quarters and if if it's growing faster than these others at that time it should command a premium you know wherever the market prices market's going to go up it's going to go down but we'll look at all these companies i think on a relative basis snowflakes still should command a premium at higher growth rates so you can see also in this chart you've got shopify awesome mongodb twilio servicenow and their respective growth rates shopify incredibly impressive [ __ ] and twilio as well servicenow is like the old dog in this mix so that's kind of interesting now the other big question we get is can snowflake grow in to its valuation this is a chart we shared with you a bit ago and it talks to snowflake's total available market and its expansion opportunity there tam expansion this is something we saw slootman execute at servicenow when everybody underestimated that company's value and i'll briefly explain here look snowflake is disrupting the traditional data warehouse and data lake markets data lake spending is relatively small it's under 2 billion but data lakes they're inexpensive and that's what made them attractive the edw market however the enterprise data warehouse market is it's much much larger now traditional edws they're they're big they're slow they're cumbersome they're expensive and they're complicated but they've been operationalized and are critical for companies reporting and basic analytics but they've failed to live up to their promise of the 360 degree view of the customer and real-time analytics you know i had a customer tell me a while ago that my data warehouse it's like a snake swallowing a basketball he gave me example where a change in a regulation this was a financial company it would occur and it would force a change in the data model in their data warehouse and they'd have to ingest all this new data and the data warehouse choked and every time intel came out with a new processor they'd rush out they'd throw more compute at the problem he called this chasing the chips now what snowflake did was to envision a cloud native world where you could bring compute to massive data volumes on an elastic basis and only pay for what you use sounds so simple but technically snowflakes founders and those innovations of that innovation of separating compute from storage to leverage the flexibility of the cloud it really was profound and clearly based on this week's performance was the right call now i'll come back to this in a bit now where we think snowflake is going is to build a data cloud and and you can see this in the chart where your data can be ingested and accessed to perform near real-time analytics with machine learning and ai and snowflake's advantage as we've discussed in the past is that it runs on any cloud and it can ingest data from a variety of sources now there are some challenges here we're not saying that snowflake is going to participate in all these use cases that we show however with its resources now we expect snowflake to create new capabilities organically and then do tuck-in acquisitions that will allow it to attack many more more use cases in adjacent markets and so you look at this chart and the third layer if that's 60 billion it means snowflake needs to extend into the fourth layer because its valuation is already over 60 billion it's not going to get 100 market share so we call this next layer automated decision making this is where real time analytics and systems are making decisions for humans and acting in real time now clearly data is going to be a pretty critical part of this equation now at this point it's unclear that snowflake has the capability to go after this space as much of the data in this area is probably going to live at the edge but snowflake is betting on becoming a data data layer across clouds and presumably at the edge and as you can see this market is enormous so there's no lack of tam in our view for snowflakes that brings us to the other big question around competition everybody's talking about this look a lot of the investment thesis behind snowflakes snowflake is that slootman and his army including cfo mike scarpelli and what they did at servicenow will be repeated scarpelli is this operational guru he keeps the engine running you know with very very tight controls and you know what it's a pretty good bet snoopman and scarpelli and their team i'm not denying that but i will tell you that snowflake's competition is much more capable than what servicenow faced in its early days now here's a picture of some of the key competitors this is one of our favorites the xy graph and on the vertical axis is net score or spending momentum that is etr's version of velocity based on their quarterly surveys now i'm showing july survey october is in the works it's in the field as i speak on the horizontal axis is market share or pervasiveness in the data set so it's a proxy for market share it's it's based on mentions not dollars and and that's why microsoft is so far to the right because they're huge and they're everywhere and they get a lot of mentions the more relevant data to us is the position of snowflake it remains one of the highest net scores in the entire etr survey based not just the database sector aw aws is its biggest competitor because most of snowflake's business runs on aws but google bigquery you can see there is is technically the most capable relative to snowflake because it's a true cloud native database built from the ground up whereas aws took a database that was built for on-prem par excel and brilliantly really made it work in the cloud by re-architecting many of the pieces but it still has legacy parts to it now here's oracle oracle's huge it's slow growth overall but it's making investments in r d we've talked about that a lot and that's going to allow it to hold on to its customers huge base and you can see teradata and cloud era cloudera is a proxy for data lakes which are low cost as i said and cloudera which acquired hortonworks is credited with the commercialization of that whole big datum and hadoop movement and then teradata is in there as well which of course they've been around forever now there are a zillion other database players we've heard a lot of them from a lot of them this week is on that inbound pr that i talked about but these are the ones that we wanted to focus on today the bottom line is we expect snowflakes vertical axis spending momentum to remain elevated and we think it will continue to steadily move to the right now let's drill into this data a bit more here we break down the components of etr's net score and this is specifically for snowflake over time now remember lime green is new adoptions the forest green is spending more relative to last year than more five percent more uh than last year or or greater gray is flat spending the pink is less spending and the bright red is we're leaving the platform the line up top that's netscore which subtracts the red from the green is an indicator of spending velocity the yellow line at the bottom is market market share or pervasiveness in the survey based on mentions now note the the blue text there that's etr's number one takeaway on snowflake two h-20 spending intentions on snowflake continue to trend robustly mostly characterized by high customer acquisition and expansion rates new adoptions market share among all customers is simultaneously growing impressive let's now look at snowflake against the competition in fortune 500 customers now here we show net score or again spending momentum over time for some of the key competitors and you can see snowflakes net score has actually increased since the april survey again this is the july survey this was taken the april survey was taken at the height of the us lockdown so snowflake's net score is actually higher in the fortune 500 than it was overall which is a good proxy for spend because fortune 500 spends more google mongodb and microsoft also also show meaningful momentum growth since the april survey you know notably aws has come off its elevated levels from last october and april it's still strong but that's something that we're going to continue to watch finally let's look at snowflakes market share or pervasiveness within the big three cloud vendors again this is a cut on the fortune 500 and you can see there are 125 respondents within the big three cloud and the fortune 500 and 21 snowflake respondents within that base of 125 and you can see the steady and consistent growth of share not huge ends but enough to give some confidence in the data now again note the etr callout but this trend is occurring despite the fact that each of the big three cloud vendors has its own competitive offering okay but i want to stress this is not a layup for snowflake as i've said this is not servicenow part two it's a different situation so let's talk about that look the competition here is not bmc which was servicenow's target as much as i love the folks at bmc we're talking here about aws microsoft and google amazon with redshift is dialed into this i've said often that they have copycatted snowflake in many cases and last fall at re invent we heard andy jassy make a big deal about separating compute from storage and he took a kind of a swipe at snowflake without mentioning them by name but let's listen to what andy jassy had had to say and then we'll come back and talk about it play the clip then what we did is because we have nitro like i was talking about earlier we built unique instances that have very fast bandwidth so that if you actually need some of those data from s3 for a query it moves much faster than if you just had to leave it there with without that high speed bandwidth instance and so with ra3s you get to separate your storage from your compute if it turns out by the way on your local ssds that you're not using all the ssd on that local ssd you only pay for what you use so a pretty significant enhancement for customers using redshift at the same time if you think about the prevailing way that people are thinking about separating storage from compute letting people scale separately that way as well as how you're going to do this large-scale compute where you move the storage to the a bunch of awaiting compute nodes there are some issues with this that you got to think about the first is think about how much data you're going to have at the scale that we're at but then just fast forward a few years think about how much data you're going to actually have to move over the network to get to the compute and we so look first of all jassy is awesome he stands up at these events for like reinvent for two hours and it connects trends and business to technology he's got a very deep understanding of the tech he's amazing however what aws has done in separating compute and storage is good but it's not as elegant architecturally as snowflake aws essentially has tiered the storage off the cluster to lower the overall costs but you really you can't turn off the compute completely with snowflake they've truly separated compute and storage and the reason is that redshift is great but it's built on an on-prem architecture that was originally an on-prem architecture that they had to redo so when jassy talks about moving the data to compute what he's really saying is our architecture is such that we had to do this workaround which is actually quite clever but this whole narrative about the prevailing ways to separate compute from storage that's snowflake and moving the data's use the word data's plural to the compute it really doesn't apply to snowflake because they'll just move the compute to the data thank you hadoop for that profound concept now does this mean snowflake is going to cakewalk over redshift not at all aws is going to continue to innovate so snowflake had better keep moving fast multi-cloud new workloads adjacent markets tam expansion etc etc etc microsoft they're huge but as usual there's not a lot to say you know about them they're everywhere they put out 1.0 products they eventually get them right because with their heft they get mulligans that they turn into pars or birdies but i think snowflake is going to bring some innovations to azure and that they're going to get good traction there in my opinion now google bigquery is interesting by all accounts it gets very high technical marks google's playing the long game and i would expect that snowflake is going to have a harder time competing in google cloud than it does within aws and what i'm predicting for azure but we'll see the last point here is that many are talking about the convergence of analytic and operational and transaction databases and the thinking is this doesn't necessarily bode well for specialists like snowflake and i would say a couple of things here first is that while it's definitely true you're not seeing snowflake positioning today as responding at the point of transaction to say for instance influence and order in real time and this may have implications at the edge it's going to have a lot of real-time inferencing but we've learned there are a lot of ways to skin a cat and we see integration layers and innovative approaches emerging in the cloud that could address this gap and present opportunities for snowflake now the other thing i'd say is you know maybe that thinking misses something altogether with the idea of snowflake in that third data layer that we showed you in our tam chart that data as a service layer or data cloud which is maybe a giant opportunity that they are uniquely positioned to address because they're cloud agnostic they've got the vision and they've got the architecture to allow them to very simply ingest data and then serve it up to businesses nonetheless we're going to see this battle continue between what i've often talked about these integrated suites and converged databases in the case of oracle converged pipelines in the case of the cloud guys versus the best of breed players like snowflake we talk about this all the time and there really isn't one single answer it's really horses for courses and customer preferences okay well you know i know you've been waiting for for me to tell you about the angles on ground floor investing and you probably think this is going to be crazy but bear with me and i got to caution you this is a bit tongue-in-cheek and it's one big buyer beware but as i said the insiders on snowflake had a 50x return on day one you probably didn't so i want to talk about the confluence of software engineering crypto cryptography and game theory powered by the underlying value of blockchain and we're talking here about innovations around a new internet in a distributed web or d-web where many distributed computers come together to form one computer that guarantees trust between two or more users for a variety of use cases not just financial store like bitcoin but that too and the motivation behind this is the fact that a small number of companies say five or six today control the internet and have essentially co-opted the major protocols like tcp http smtp pop3 etc etc and these people that we're showing here on this chart they're working on these new innovations there are many of them but i just name a few here olaf carlson we he started poly chain capital to invest in core infrastructure around these new computing paradigms this gentleman mark nadal is someone who's working on new d apps tim berners-lee who invented the internet he's got a project called solid at mit and it emphasizes data ownership and privacy and of course satoshi got it all started when she invented bitcoin and created the notion of fractional shares and by the way the folks at andreessen horowitz are actively making bets in this space so you know maybe this is not so crazy but here's the premise if you're a little guy and you wanted to invest in snowflake you couldn't until late in the game if you wanted to invest in the lamp stack directly in the late 90s there was no way to do that you had to wait for red hat to go public or to get a piece of the linux action but in this world that we're talking about here there are opportunities that are not mainstream and often they're based yes on cryptocurrencies again it's dangerous there are scams and and losers but if you do your homework there are actually vehicles for you to get in on the ground floor and you know some of these innovations are going to take off you could get a 50x or 100 bagger but you have to do your research and there's no guarantee that these innovations are going to be able to take on the big internet giants but there are people really smart technologists and software engineers that are young they're mission driven and they're forming a collective voice against a dystopian future because they want to level the playing field on the internet and this may be the disruptive force that challenges today's giants and if your game i would take a look at the space and see if it's worth throwing a few dollars at okay a little tangent from snowflake but i wanted to put that out there snowflake wow closes its first trading week as a company worth 66 billion dollars roughly the same as goldman sachs worth more than vmware and the list goes on i mean what's what's more is there to say other than remember these episodes are all available as podcasts so please subscribe i publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com so please check that out and please comment on my linkedin post or feel free to email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr thanks for watching everyone we'll see you next time you

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here in our Palo Alto studios in California for a CUBE conversation with Suresh Menon, who's the senior vice president and general manager of Informatica of the master data group. Suresh, great to see you. We couldn't see you in person. Three-time CUBE alumni at Informatica World, industry executive. We're remote. Great to see you. >> Good to see you, John. Great to be back. Wish this was in person, but I think this is fantastic. >> Well, one of the things that's clear in my interviews over the past four months, we've been doing our best to hit the road and we've got a quarantine crew here. We're doing our part telling the stories that matter. Data now more than ever, COVID-19 has shown that the companies that are prepared, that have done the work, for the digital transformation, you know, putting the cliche aside, is real and the benefits are definitely there. And you're seeing things like reaction time, war rooms are being put together, because business still needs to go on. This is the reality. And so companies are seeing some exposure and some opportunities, and so a lot of things are going on. So I want to get your reaction to that, because there are changes on how customers are evolving with data. You guys have been at the forefront of that, pioneering this horizontal data fabric, data 4.0, amidst talks about. What are you seeing from customers? How are they approaching this? Because at the end of the day, they got to come out of the pandemic with a growth strategy and they got to solve the problems they've got to do today and be in position. What are you seeing for changes? >> So one of the most important things that we started seeing, there are about three big trends that we began to see starting in about late March, and share some of the data points that we saw across the world, starting with Italy, which was in the news earlier this year with the pandemic. We saw that in one week, the stats were that online or digital sales increased by 81% in a single week. And it's obvious when you lock down a large population, commerce moves to, away from the brick and mortar kind of model to being completely online and digital. The other part of it that we started seeing is we had already started seeing a lot of our customers starting to struggle with supply chain issues. As borders started closing, opening, and then closing again, how do you maintain a resilient supply chain? And a resilient supply chain also means being able to be really agile in terms of trying to identify alternate supply sources, be able to quickly onboard new suppliers, maybe in different parts of the world that are not so affected. And then finally, the last piece that we saw were every single CFO, chief financial officer, people who ran finance organizations at all of these companies, for them, it is almost as if you're driving down the highway and you suddenly run into, enter this fog bank. The first reaction is to hit the brakes, of course, because you don't know what's (microphone cuts out) so every CFO around the world started saying, I need to be able to understand what my cash flow situation is. Where is it coming in from? Where is it going out of? How do I reconcile across the geographies, lines of business? Because everybody realized that without an adequate cash reserve, who knows how long this thing is going to carry on? We need to be able to survive. And then the fourth element that has always been important for our customers is all about customer engagement, getting the best possible customer experience. That's just being turned up to 11, the volume, because as organizations are saying, there's disruption happening now. There are new ways in which consumers are going out there and buying products and services, and these things might stick. There's also an opportunity for some of these organizations to go out and enter into markets, gain market share, that they were not able to do in the past. And then how do you come out of this, whenever it is, how do we come out of it? It's always by making sure you're retaining your customers and getting more of them. So the underpinnings across all of this, whether it's supplier data, whether it's getting the most accurate product information delivered to your online channels, whether it is being able to understand your supply chain holistically with our data platform under it, and then finally customer experience depends on understanding everything end to end, including everything you need to know about your customer. So data continues to become top of mind for all of these organizations. >> You know, Suresh, we've had conversations over the past three years, and I can remember them vividly all about, and we've been really geeking out, but also getting very industry focused around, oh, the enablement of data and doing all these things, horizontal scalability, application enablement, AI CLAIRE, all these things are very relevant. But now with COVID-19, that that future's been pulled to the present. It's accelerated so fast that everything's impacted the business model. You mentioned supply chain and cash flow. The business is right there visible, and all these things are exposed and heightens the volume, as you said, and so everyone's seeing it happen. They can see the consequences, right? So this is like the most reality view of all time in any kind of is digital transformation, will it happen? So I want to get your thoughts on this, because I've been riffing on this idea of the future of work, the word work, workplaces, workforce, workloads, and workflows, right? So they all have work in them, right? We talk about workflows and workloads. That's a cloud term and a tech term. Workplace is the physical place, now home. Workforce are people, their emotional stability, their engagement. These things are all now exposed and all this new data's coming in. Now the executives have to make these decisions. This has really been a forcing function. So first, I'm sure you agree with all that, but what's your reaction to that? Because this brings up challenges that customers are facing. What's your thoughts on this massive reality? >> Yeah, I mean, this is where I think the other domain that is very important, which is most important for organizations if you have to be successful is really that employee or workforce understanding. We talk about customer 360s. We have to talk about employee 360s, right? And tie that to locations. And there are very few enlightened organizations, I would say, maybe three, four, five years ago, who had said, we really do need to understand everything about employees, where they work from, what are the different locations they go to, whether it's home and whether it's the multiple office locations that the organization might have. And it started quite realistically in the healthcare organization. There's a large healthcare provider here in California who many, many years ago decided that they want to create an employee 360, and considering it's doctors, it's nurses, it's hospital technicians and so on, who move from one hospital to another different outpatient clinics. And we are in a disaster-prone state, and what they said is I need to build this data foundation about my employees to understand where someone is at any given point in time and be able to place them so that if there is, let's say, an earthquake in one part of the state, I want to know who's affected, and more importantly, who's not affected who can go out and help. And we started seeing that mindset now go across every single organization, organizations that said, hey, I was not able to keep track, when the lockdowns were started, I was not able to keep track of which one of my employees were in the air at that time, crossing borders, stuck in different parts of the world. So as much as we talk about product, customer financial data, supplier data, employee data, and an employee 360, and now with a lot of state and local governments creating citizens 360s has also now become top of mind because being able to pull all of this data together, and it's not just your traditional structured data. We're also talking about all the data that you're getting, the interaction data from folks carrying their phones, mobile devices, the swipes that people are doing in and out of locations, being able to capture all of that, tie it all together. Again, we talk about an explosion in volume, which I think is to your point, bringing in more automation with CLAIRE, with artificial intelligence, machine learning techniques, is really the only way to get ahead of this, because it's not humanly possible to say, as your data scales, we need to get the same linearly, the same number of people. That's not going to happen. So technology, AI, has to solve it. >> Well, I want to get to AI in a second. It's on my list to ask you about CLAIRE, get the update there. But you mentioned 360 view of business and the employee angle's definitely relevant. Talk more about this 360 business approach, how are customers approaching it across the enterprise. Certainly now more than ever, it's critical. >> Right, so the 360s have always been around, John, and I think we've had these conversations about 360s now, for the last few years now, and a lot of organizations have gone out and said, create a 360 around a particular, whichever one specific business-critical domain that they want to create a 360 out of. So typically for most organizations, you're buying parts, raw materials from a supplier. So create a supplier 360. You really need to understand is there risk there in the supply chain? Am I allowed to do business with a lot of these suppliers? It's data that helps them create that supplier 360. The product is always important, whether you're manufacturing your own, or if you're a retailer, you're buying these from your suppliers and then selling them via your different channels. And then finally, the third one was always customers, without which none of those organizations would be in business. So customer 360 was always top of mind. But, and there are ancillary domains, whether it's that's the employee 360 we just talked about, finance 360, which are of interest maybe to specific lines of business. These are all being done in silos. If you think about creating a full 360 profile of your suppliers, of your products, of your customers, the industry has been doing it now for a few years, but where this pandemic has really taught a lot of organizations is now it's important to use that platform to start connect (microphone cuts out) a line all the way from your customers via their experience all the way back to your suppliers and all the different functions and domains and 360s that it needs to touch. And the most, I guess real-world example a lot of us had to deal with was the shortages in the grocery stores, right? And that ties all the way back to the supply chain. And you're not providing your best possible customer experience if the goods and products and services that customers want to buy from you are not available. That's when organizations started realizing, we need to start connecting the customer profiles, their preferences, to the products, our inventory, all the way back down to suppliers, and are, for example, can we turn up the production in a particular factory, but maybe that location is under one of the most stringent lockdown conditions and we're not able to bring in or increase capacity there. So how do you get a full 360 across your entire business starting with customer all the way back to supplier. That is what we are saying, the end-to-end 360 view of a business, or as we, there's too many words, we just call it business 360. >> Yeah, it's interesting, and I'm interviewing a lot of your customers lately and talking some of the situations around COVID. There's the pre-COVID, before COVID, during COVID, now looking after COVID. Some have been very happy and well-prepared because they have been using, say, Informatica, and had done the work and are taking advantage of those benefits. I've talked to other practitioners who are struggling with trying to figure out how to architect, because what your customers who've been successful have been telling me is that, look at, we're in good shape right now because we did the work prior to COVID, and now they are being forced to have a 360 view not because it's a holistic corporate mission. It's they have to, right? People are at home, so it's not like, hey, let's get a 360 view of the business and do an assessment and do better and enable things. No, no, no. There's business pressure. So they're enabled. Now new types of data's coming in. So again, back to the catalog and back to some of the things that you guys have been working on. How do you talk to your customers now that they're in COVID for the ones that have been set up before COVID and the ones now that are coming to the table saying, okay, I need to now get quickly deployed with Informatica while I'm in, during the state of COVID so I can have a growth strategy coming out of it, so I don't make these mistakes again. What's your thoughts? >> Absolutely, and I think that the, whether an organization has already, a customer has already laid the groundwork, has the foundation before COVID, and the ones who are now moving full steam ahead because they're missing capabilities in those functions. The conversation is in reality more or less the same, because even for those who have the foundation, what they're starting to see is new forms of data coming in, new forms of, new requirements being placed on the, by the business on that infrastructure, the data infrastructure, and being able to, most importantly, react very, very quickly. And even for those who are starting off right now from scratch, it's the same thing. It's need to get up and running, need to get the answers to these questions, need to get the, we need to get the problems to these solutions as soon as possible. And that the theme, or I guess the talking points for both of those customers is really two things. One is you need agility. You need to be able to bring these solutions up to life and delivering as soon as possible, which means that the capabilities, the solutions you need, whether it's bringing the catalog, understanding where your data is very, very quickly, your business critical information. How do you bring that in, all of that data, and integrate that data into a 360 solution, be able to make sure it's of the highest quality, enrich it, master it, create those 360 profiles by joining it to all of this interaction, transaction data. All that has to be done with the power of technologies like CLAIRE, with artificial intelligence, so that you are up and running in a matter of days or weeks, as opposed to months and years, because you don't have that time. And then the other one which is quite important is cloud, because all of this capability needs infrastructure, hardware to run on. And we've started seeing a lot of, let's say cloud-hesitant verticals, entire verticals now in the last two to three months suddenly going from yeah, cloud is maybe somewhere down the road, as far as our future's concerned. But to now saying, we understand that we have to go to a cloud when our technicians are not able to get access to our data centers to add new machinery in there to take care of the new demands, that migration to cloud. So it's that agility and cloud which really is the common theme when we talk to customers, both- >> Yeah, and now more than ever, they need it, 'cause it's an important time, and it's going to be an inflection point, for sure. There'll be winners and losers, and people want to be on the right side of history here. Suresh, I got to ask you about AI. Obviously CLAIRE's been a big part of it. Now more than ever, if you have bad data, AI can be bad too. So understanding the relationship between data and AI is super important. This is going to be critical to help people move faster and deal with more data as soon as they're dealing with now. What's your thoughts on the role AI will play? >> Oh, AI has a huge role to play. It's already begun to play a huge role in our solutions, whether we start from catalog to integration to 360 solutions. The first thing that AI can really do very, very well is, we've gone from folks who said, let's take supply chain. There were maybe three sources of supplier data that used to come into creating a supplier 360. Today, there are hundreds of sources. If you go all the way to the customer 360, and we are talking about 1,300, 1,400 different sources of data with 90% of them sitting up in the cloud. How is it humanly possible to bring all of that data together? First of all, understand where customer information is sitting across all of those different places, whether it's your clickstream data, call log data, whether it's the actual interaction data that customers are having with in-store, online, collecting all of that information, and from your traditional systems like CRM, ERP, and billing, and all of that, bringing all that together for understanding where it is, catalog gives you that Google for the enterprise view, right? It tells you where all this data is. But then once you've got that there, it also tells you what its relative quality is, what needs to be done to it, how usable is it. To your point of if it's bad data, at least what AI can do first of all is tell you that these are unreliable attributes, these are ones that can be enriched. And then, and this is where AI now moves to the next level, which is to start inferring what kind of rules that are in our, let's say, repository across integration, quality, and mastering, and bring, and matching, bring all that together and say, here, you as the developer who's been tasked with making this happen in a matter of days, we are going to infer for you what you need to do with this data, and then we will be able to go in and bring all these sources in, connect it, load it up into a 360 solution, and create those 360 profiles that everybody downstream, whether it's your engagement systems and other. So it's really about that discovery, that automation, as well as the ability to refine and suggest new rules in order to make your data better and better as you go along. I think that's really the power of CLAIRE and AI. >> I love the Google for the enterprise or data, because the metaphor really is about finding what you're looking for. It's the discovery piece, as you said, to make it easy, and Google did make it easy to find things, which is what their search engine did. But if you look at what Google did after that, they had to have large scales. SREs is what they call them, site reliability engineers, one engineer for thousands and thousands of servers, which they, revolutionizing IT and cloud. You guys are kind of thinking the same way, data scale, right? So it's Google in terms of discovery, right? Find what you're looking for, catalog, get it in, and get it out quest, make it available for applications. But you're kind of teasing out this other point where the AI comes in. That's scale. >> Yes. >> That's super important nuance. >> Absolutely. >> But it's key to the future. >> Absolutely, because when we are starting to talk about now not just tens of millions of records when it comes to customer data or product experience dat and so on. We are already talking about organizations like Dell, for example, with our customer 360, with billions of records going in, which would be equivalent to the scale of, if you look at Google search engine business back maybe 10, 12 years ago. So yes, we are talking about within the context of a single organization or a single company, we're already talking about volumes that were unthinkable even five years ago. So being able to manage that scale, be able to have architectures, technologies that are able to autoscale, and the advantage of course is now we've got an architectural platform that has microservices. As loads start increasing, be able to spawned new instances of those microservices seamlessly. Again, this is another part where AI comes in, AI being able to say, in the old days it was somebody had to see that the CPUs are overloaded to about 100% before someone realized that we have to go out and do something about it. In this new world with AI managing the ops layer, being able to look at is this customer bringing in another, in the cloud rack, cloud world, in a SaaS world, bringing in a billion records that they want to push through in the next 10 minutes, be able to anticipate that, spawn the new infrastructure and the microservices, and be able to take care of that load and then dial those back down when the work is done. This again, from an ops perspective as well, from, so we are able to scale instead of sort of having, let's say, 1000 SREs, I think, to your example, John, have only 10 SREs to make sure that every, look at the dashboard and make sure everything is going well. >> Well, I've been covering you guys for a long time. You guys know that. And I'm a big fan. I always had been a fan of the vision that's playing out. Large scale data, large scale discovery, fast and easy, integrating that into applications for business value. It's not just the data warehouse and just park something over here. This is a mindset. It's a foundational enablement model. You guys have done an amazing job. And now more than ever, it's I think more understood because of the pandemic. >> Absolutely, and people are making that direct connection between the business outcome and the value of having this data foundation that does all the things we described. >> Suresh, great to see you, and bummer we couldn't be in person, but hey, the pandemic hit. Informatica World when virtual. A lot of different events. I know you guys have a lot of things going on virtually, and you're engaging well. Everyone's working at home. Not a problem. Most of the techies can work at home. It's not a big deal. But you've got remote customers. You guys are engaging with them. And congratulations and great to see you. >> Same here. Thank you so much. >> All right, Suresh Menon. He is senior vice president, general manager of master data at Informatica. Data's more important than ever. We're seeing it, this is a foundational thing. If it's not enabling value, then it's not going to be a good solution. This is the new criteria. This is where action matters. People who need data and need to integrate into new workloads, new applications across workforces and new workplaces. This is the reality of the future. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Stu: Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to this special Cube presentation. We're talking with Pensando, and their event is "Future Proof Your Enterprise", to help us really understand where the company is, and the partnerships, what they're hearing from customers. Really happy to welcome back to our program Randy Pond, he's the Chief Financial Officer at Pensando. Randy, thanks so much for joining us. >> Randy: My pleasure, thanks for having me. >> All right, well Randy, obviously today, we're talking to people everywhere, they're remote so, not quite as plush as the last time we talked to you at the Goldman-Sachs office, in New York City, beautiful view in the background. That was a great backdrop, when you talk about bringing a company out of stealth, John Chambers there, your chairman, Antonio Neri >> Yeah Neri. >> Talking about the investment in the partnership. And Goldman-Sachs, an excellent customer there, here we are little bit more than six months later and that partnership with HPE is taking the next step. You've got the general availability, this month, of the HPE Proliant with Pensando Solutions. Bring us up to speed a little bit though, we'll talk about HPE maybe in a second but, your customers, your progress, you had, I believe it was up to your C round of funding, when you came out of stealth so, give us your viewpoint as to where the company is today. >> So today, I think, we're sort of, divide the conversation between financial and a business perspective. So financially, we're in great shape, the C round came together very well, we were way over subscribed. We raised our limits to secure additional funding, which has worked out really well, getting where we are currently with the pandemic. So financially, we're in great shape, our case burn has held steady and we've done a good job of forecasting, that's why I thing the Bird's pleased. From a business perspective, we've done a really good job delivering on our real maximum product perspective. So, the team has released the cloud production, we released the cloud to customers about a month or two ago. We just did a release to the enterprise space, through HPE. We got another release coming up the end of this month. There's releases scheduled for Q3 and Q4 of this year. Our second ASIC will come back, I think, the 15th of June, so we're going to get access to our new design, I think that's great news. You know our cloud customers are excited about that 'cause it provides a little more capability than the current device does. And we had a great Q1 and we're off to a great start on Q2. We overachieved in Q1, we look like we're going to overachieve again in Q2, both in terms of units and dollars, so we're in a pretty good place. >> Yeah, I'd like to see if we could break down say kind of the financial and the business piece. On the financial side piece, you've worked with this team for quite a long time, there's got to be a different financial model that you put in place when you know that you've got, really, your exit built in, add from the three spin-ins before, proof the product, get it out there and then, well, I've got an in-house feed with a full panel there, as opposed today. Is the model we should be thinking, what percentage of that is OEM? You talk about there's the cloud model, and the enterprise model and, how do you structure things a little bit differently for that type of model versus, maybe, what the spin-ins were or a traditional start-up. >> Sure. >> that might have a different, a few different models to choose from? >> So, we're much closer aligned to a traditional start-up environment. Now, the one unique point is the HPE relationship because they've been my partner, they are my primary go to market partner in the enterprise space today but, they're also a strategic investor. So, the reality is, in the enterprise space we have to sell the product through the OEMs, the average enterprise customer doesn't have the capacity to install themself. But that is a very different model than it is in the cloud side. So, it's an indirect sales model, most likely through HPE and other server providers, like Dell, Cisco possibly, and Super Micro. Every customer has their sort of, requested server manufacturer. On the cloud side, individuals build their own so, that's a, I ship to them and they install it themselves, it's a different software model, it's a different manufacturing model as in, we have a more traditional direct sales model on that side, but we've got a partner middle model on the enterprise side today. We've set 'em up as both, HPE sort of serves like a quasi Cisco environment for us, because we're depending on their engine to find our leads, and it's worked out really really well. >> Excellent, maybe bring us inside a little bit, where you are with (away from microphone) about customer acquisition leading up to now and what's the expectation now that HPE is fully ready to roll. >> So, we, I'm going to start the conversation again. There's the cloud side, so on the cloud side we have three committed customers today. One is in production, the other two are going into production later part of this year, they need the release we're going to give them in September/October timeframe but they've committed to us from a design perspective. And then there's a follow-on generational product in '21 where they really ramp hard. I already have a bind contract with two, I'm working on the third. And, on the enterprise side, we're modeling ourselves after the top 200 HPE customers right now. They normally align themselves around financial services, pharmaceuticals, transportation, sled, we're working through those customers. We have active talks with many of them today, they're in our sales pipeline, we manage that relationship together. Generally, HPE opens the door, we explain the technology to the technical team, they say they can see a place for us and they let us stand up a plat, and then we go from there. >> Excellent, so Randy we referenced the global pandemic going on right now. It's been a bit of a bifurcated model in the tech world. Though it's been definitely a tailwind, somewhat, from the cloud standpoint, there's many infrastructure pieces that have seen an immediate acceleration, things like work from home technology. So, there's certain devices and certain deployments. And there's other things that, of course, we put a pause button trying, too much uncertainty out there. What are you seeing at the market and how's that impacting you, as a relatively new start-up? >> Yeah, so in general, your point is well taken. The cloud players are telling us their demand is up dramatically and therefore the signal they're sending us is, they want to accelerate deployment and it's likely it's going to be bigger than we originally had estimated so, that's been great news for us. In the enterprise space it's really very different, you know we're not selling a lot of product to Walmart, or Gap, or the retail space, they're struggling mightily, any hotels, motels, Carnival Lines is not buying our product today. But, if you look at the financials, if you look at the pharmas, their demand's up quite a bit, they're both buying ahead a little bit to hedge their bets in the supply chain, for the situation today, and they're actually seeing the real demand go up. And, the banks especially have seen it go up 'cause their work from home has gone through the roof. So, it's been a good opportunity for us to sort of seize the moment and demonstrate how we can be part of their new implementations, and bring new services to 'em. >> Yeah, Randy, wonder if you can actually give us, a little bit, that voice of the customer and what is the problem you're solving? Because, we talked about, there's certain immediate initiatives that accompany the era, absolutely like, today, security is more important than ever. When people are working from home, the bad actors actually are trying even harder to get involved there, we talked a little bit about cloud, so what is that itch that Pensando scratches and, therefore, how do you fit into the current landscape? >> Sure, you know, with our customers today there's similar problems and dissimilar problems, between the cloud and the enterprise. The similar problems is that Pensando quickly solves things, like East West security inside of their environments, their computer environments, which is difficult to do today, it's expensive and difficult to do today. We've provided pervasively and wire rate, and that's sort of an easy sell, initially. Another one that's been pretty easy for everyone to look at is observability and telemetry because of where we're positioned, in the computer space, we see every packet, which provides us with a lot of knowledge about what's going on in their environment. So, that's been a pretty easy initial sell. In the case of the enterprise customers, we can sell other pieces of their solution that are either expensive, or introduce latency or management problems. Whether it's firewall technology, or load balancing technology, or micro segmentation technology, all of which we can do inside of our blade. And today it's done either through appliances or through virtual machines consuming CPUs. In the cloud space, we do all of that, plus we allow them to download their own image into our devices today, which is pretty powerful, we have a lot of memory and we have a lot of capacity, from an Arm core perspective. And we allow them to pick and choose the features and functionalities they want, and then run everything at wire speeds, at much faster speeds. The enterprise is running 10/25, the cloud partners are running 25/50 going to 100, where we're even more compelling, we think. >> Randy, want to get back to talk a little bit more about HPE. You spent long time working at Cisco, for a good part of that HPE was one of your bigger partners on that. So, tell us what it's like working with HPE, any compare/contrast would be welcome. >> You know, it's interesting, so the cultural environment of HPE, under Antonio Neri, is very similar to what we saw at Cisco. And he and John have a phenomenal relationship, it's a very collegial environment, it's a very bright environment. They move quickly, for a big business. Where it's vastly different is they are much tougher on the numbers side because they're under much more margin pressure, and compounded pressures, that we never had (chuckles) at Cisco, just in all fairness to them. But, if we look through the organization, like the executive that was assigned to our account, from a sales perspective, used to work at Cisco. I think one or two of his guys used to work with Cisco. There's program management people that used to work with Cisco, there're people in engineering that came from Cisco so, it's an environment that's similar enough that it's easy enough for us to navigate. And, we're connected sort of on all levels, which has really been useful, and we have a weekly standing dialog across all the different functions. So, we're pretty deeply embedded with HPE right now and it's gone very very well. >> Yeah, you said that, even with the global pandemic right now, that Pensando is a bit ahead of where you expected shipments to be. I'm curious always, when I talk to a CFO, how do you see macroeconomic impact of what is going on there? Any concerns on your end about supply chain, either for yourselves or for partners, like HPE? How do you see what we're currently going through and the recovery future? >> So, it's an interesting question. You know, getting this pandemic sort of processed through the supply chains like a pig through a python, there's just no way to get around it. I mean, you know we had the first breakdown when they closed the country of Malaysia and I just couldn't build final product. They literally just shut the place down so, it took us about 10 days to get ourselves up and running, from a skeleton perspective. The government worked with us, they let a small crew come into our manufacturing partner to get some finished goods off for one of our OEM customers. As we've come back up, we've seen lead times extend on some of the custom parts, it's just a fact of life. I think there's a little bit of an artificial demand that's driving the supply chain a little bit crazy right now because now people are panicked that what happens if it comes back, will I get caught again, can I get enough inventory to buffer myself for, you know, two weeks to three or four months, depending on how aggressive you want to be, or conservative you want to be in that space. And then, I think, as the supply chain trickles back online, you end up discovering that yes, I can build final product, and I can get the Asics, and the memory, but now I want to buy some, you know, RS232 devices and it turns out that sure he's got 'em but the magnetic, that goes inside of it, that comes from Western China, they aren't quite up and running just yet. But we're seeing legacy problems, nothing catastrophic, nothing that's been painful. We've had to move some work around to get an incremental volume for ourselves, we've added fab vendors, and a few other things. So, it's really made us focus on second sourcing everywhere we can because we thought we were small enough, and the volume perspective wasn't that big a deal, we'll just get second sourcing once we get the product to market. That's heated back up and we're doing all that work now. So, I think, knock on wood, our recovery has gone very well we don't see any big problems in the supply chain. Now, I think, the bigger the player, like an HPE, and the longer the window they were shut down, the harder they pull when they turn the supply chain back on. But I think the big players, Cisco, HPE, and others it's going to take them a longer time, I think, to really see how this trickles all the way through, 'cause you can't really get good visibility how much safety stock or buffer stock does everybody have, at every level of the chain. So, everybody pulls at once, you run dry in a week, a month? Is it fast enough to recover, from a production perspective? All those things, I think, they're still not quite resolved yet. >> Just one other related aspect of the pandemic, that I would love your viewpoint on. You know, work from home, obviously, is what everyone is doing right now. I'm curious if you think that, what the recovery would look like from that standpoint, is there anything from Pensando that makes you shift where you think about hiring it? I've been to the Cisco headquarters and the long street, with a lot of buildings, and a lot of people. And everybody's wondering, will that headquarters, and centralized structure, that we had before, is that forever changed? >> You know that's a great question. So, it's for certain changed, I think, in terms of therapeutic, or a vaccine, for the current covid virus. So, that's just a fact of life and we've been comparing notes with a lot of other companies about what they're doing to bring the workers back, who want it, who are comfortable and want to come back to work. 'Cause, even inside of Pensando, I've got some folks who're like, "Listen, I'm not comfortable coming back, "I've got kids at home , I don't want to take the chance." That's fine, we don't have a problem with that. And, quite frankly, we can make a case that, in some of our functional areas, we're more productive than we were before the pandemic. In India specifically, this has been a boon for us because they're not getting on and off buses, they're not spending three or four hours trying to get back and forth to work, they're happy working from home, we're happy having them at home. The guy who runs India for us says productivity's up, and employee satisfaction couldn't be higher. Our plans now is, we have to bring a small team back into our headquarters, in Milpitas, to bring up our new Asic. But, that's going to be 15 to 20 people, and not all at one time, we're going to spread them out. We're already articulating what parts of the building can and can't be used , one way hallways, masking, temperature taking, everything you would expect. The next phase for us is some sort of rotational work where we'll say, "We're going to bring 25% of the people in, "30% of the people in, you work the week, you're off "for two, you work the week you're off two." And so we can get through the back of this thing, it's unlikely, it's almost impossible, in my mind, we would bring back 100% of our employees in the building. Now, does that change the view longterm? It's a great question because, I think what it's forced us to do is to get more comfortable with remote work, so that we can truly make it an option of any one employee, in specific areas. Like, the lab guys have to be in the lab, and the IT guys got to be in the computer room, but if you're a software developer, or if you're a marketing guy, do you really have to be in the building? And I think it's pushed us to really learn to manage them more effectively, with remoteness. And I think it provides us, at least, with options going forward. When I hire the next 100, do I have to put 'em in a building someplace or do I just deal with them where they are and bring them into the fold? We've brought on dozens of people, since the pandemic started, and quite honestly, we onboard 'em , we train 'em, and we mainstream 'em remotely and it's worked out great. >> Excellent, all right Randy let's bring it back to the HPE partnership for the final question. >> Sure! >> Tell us what we should be looking at, through the rest of this year, what the general availability of this means to your business and the impact you expect it to have on your customer. >> So, from an HPE perspective, I think this is going to be great innovation that they're bringing to the marketplace, to their customer set. It allows them, I think, to separate themselves from the market, at least for some period of time, until the other players get pulled along by the end users. Their product has a pretty steep ramp, their front half and the back half of the year, for us, are dramatically different, in terms of size and ramp. And it really sets us up for a very large, we hope, fiscal '22, which , for us, will end in January 31st of '22. But we're going to know, I mean we go GA in just a few weeks and we're going to get a sense if we can turn these POCs into end customers. And we're also going to see the ramp of the cloud customers in Q4. So, you know, I really feel like, both for us and for HPE, the next three four months, as we start getting back to some regularity of interacting with customers physically, not just remotely, and we see the early benefits and some of the early profit ownership analysis on deployment erect technology. This could be dramatic for us and for them, quite honestly. >> All right, well Randy Pond, CFO of Pensando, thanks so much, really a pleasure catching up with you and getting to discuss about how Pensando's helping to future proof your enterprise. >> Thank you much, my pleasure, have a great day. >> All right, I'm Stu Miniman, check out theCUBE.net for all our coverage, thank you for watching, thank you. (soft music)

[Music] from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering the IBM think brought to you by IBM welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM think 2020 the digital version of IBM think Bill Smith is here he's the general manager of IBM Global Financing bill thanks for coming on thank you very much for having me up I'm looking forward to it yeah me too so you know I remember the days of the the glory days of IBM you know leasing I used to run the leasing program for a couple of years at IDC and it was just it was an awesome time but things have changed a lot I mean iBM has really transformed its financing army what do we need to know about today's IBM Global Financing well some things are still saying but as you said a lot is different we constantly are celebrating our 40th anniversary this year a big part of our business is now software and services financing a lot of project man Singh we still do a lot of hardware business but it's a much much smaller portion of our thirty billion dollar asset base so it's a great business it was a great business back then when you were involved in it the very profitable and and interesting business today as it was then as I said big difference though a lot of software and services yeah well I've of course I would have mentioned that most if not all mainframes are still leased but now you've expanded it to many many more areas what can you tell us about you know some of the financial metrics you know what's the profile of the business look like yeah sure it's a it's a big business it looks a lot like a bank and we're around 30 billion in asset we do business and you know 40 plus countries around the world 26% return on equity most of the portfolio's very high percentage of that portfolio is investment rate so a couple other key metrics is we we actually issue our own debt we became an SCC registrant a couple years ago we have a you know many debt holders we only have one owner and one equity owner and that's IBM it's a very good business but 2% of IBM's revenue but about 10% of IBM's from yeah well so now this is an important aspect that I want to join to it when people you know look at the IBM balance sheet they'll you know go out or whatever Yahoo Finance and say oh my gosh look at all this debt must be you know I know of course the redhead acquisition is part of that but you're carrying a lot of the debt as part of the financing operation but people need to understand it's a very profitable and very high quality debt and if we could just address that one of the big benefits to becoming an SCC registrant is the amount of transparency that we were able to provide the investors so unlike other captive financing companies they just get rolled in to different units or parts of the books you know we actually report in the segment reporting every quarter we certify just like they you know public company would we're still a wholly owned subsidiary but the level of transparency is really great for the investors which is why you know debt holders were able to Willington by our paper it's still a very client based business we do very specialized structures we only do business and NIT as I told the board many times I'd be on board many times we don't do planes trains and automobiles we only do we only do I see and and really you know 99 percent of our businesses is IBM only so you talked about branching into software and services I'm interested in how the the client base has has transformed as a result of that sure you know there's a lot of digital transformations going on there's still a lot of ERP implementations around the world very large project so we we described it as project financing so if client will come to us and say bill we'd like to match the benefit of this very large GBS or services engagement that the IBM team is leading we like to match the benefit when we have the cash outlay so we'll put a structure together that will delay the payment for when those benefits begin to come online for the enterprise and then match payment with when benefits are actually received it's proven to be a very very effective financing instrument for us but highly effective economic instruments for the clients also gives if I'm you know contracting with IBM services you've got a major incentive for the services organization to deliver value as soon as possible and that aligns everybody doesn't it it absolutely does you know we have a lot of business partners where they'll do similar structures as well so other integrators you know if the redhead acquisition and and clients moving to a hybrid cloud model sometimes there's a migration that will take place between the traditional legacy systems and when they move that cloud well that bubble of been we take Dera so will will finance that migration effort for the client and again to match their cash outlays with when they receive the benefit that I've left from that cloud migration in the day there were tons of leasing companies who would take the risk and predict the residual values and then they'd take the paper and and and then it was just an awesome business and of course the government provided some incentives to do that with the investment tax credit what about things like refurbished equipment is that's still something that you do today or is that a thing of the mainframe pass that's great yeah that's a great question you know it's a it's still a really important and a sustainable business for us we we take equipment back that comes off of a lease or sometimes alone but typically a lease and we will refurbish that or reman factor that equipment and then put it back into market oftentimes it goes into our services organization for them to use with their clients the global technology services typically you know we will we will matram a fact or a remarket about 29,000 IT devices a week 16,000 tons of idea quipment around the in a year around the world so these remanufacturing refurbishing centers so it's a even though the hardware business has come down in its percentage of IBM's business compared to software and services it's still a very very big business as you can see by the the size of the number of equipment and the tonnage what about some of the initiatives that are so you mentioned you know the digital transformation a lot going on with cloud machine intelligence I mean those big projects you know some of them are still multi-year you know seven weeks people say oh there's no more multi-year projects but digital transformations are multi-year projects even though you might take them in chunks but I'm going to capitalize those can I finance them as well what role does does IBM finance play in that you absolutely can and and that is a big big part of our business today though the the client will they look I've got a very large digital transformation project going to take place in four countries we are looking for an opportunity to match those cash outlays with when those countries come online or when we begin to receive the benefits we also want you've been and some of the software that goes with this digital transformation and we also want to spin and the IT infrastructure that's required so we may put those services software and hardware on a different financial instruments but it looks like you know one total bill for the client and it and its global it's a global footprint so we're able to handle the different currencies around the world and and again most importantly match those cash outlays with when the benefits are received so bill you know as long as I've been in this business the IT investments from a CFOs perspective have always been viewed as a higher risk granted higher reward but but you know the the CFOs would say okay you're gonna have to have a little higher IRR for this one because you know the business moves so fast technology changes so quickly how are you seeing the CIO - CFO conversation evolve what's your advice to see iPods in terms of how they talk to two CFO's that's another really good question so I was just on with actually new client this morning one was the F of the other one was a treasurer and they were asking my opinion about this financial instrument and and and getting some advice actually the conversation went look it's not really cost the debt issue the cost of money is always part of the economic decision but oftentimes those clients use financing instrument as a way to manage the asset manage the asset throughout the life the project they also want to focus on the delivery the quality of the delivery I think that takes place during these very very large project financing engagements so the CFO specifically said look I really like business case it's quite clear when we're gonna receive these benefit what I'd like to know Bill is how do you view the risk of the implementation and you know we were able to share with them the risk work that we do with with GBS team our level of confidence that it will be done on time and on budget and the skill level of the of the partner team that's been assigned so it actually has allowed us to have a different conversation with different group or senior level at the account CFO Treasury sometimes the controller you play an important role in de-risking the the business case and as well I mean I would imagine right now in there you know these on certain times that you know IBM Global Financing can provide liquidity to businesses who need it that you you know are confident you know are stable business but might need some help you know getting through this pandemic we can and as you said the what makes us a little different is you know we make credit decisions on what we call arm's length credit visions you know for a standalone albeit at the financing company so we're very very focused on maintaining the right investment grade of the portfolio we're going to make really really good prudent risk decisions you know that being said we have some fabulous IBM clients that have been clients for a long time we work very closely with them understanding their financial structures what's what's important to them and they're very transparent with us about you know with financial challenges they have so we'll continue to provide that liquidity we are going to be very prudent but we'll certainly help those really good clients well last question it's kind of where do you see this going what's your kind of vision for IBM global global finance and give us a little glimpse of the future sure you know I think you'll see us continue to migrate in the direction of the IBM company moves the IBM company is aggressively moving towards a hybrid cloud model we'll continue to provide those migration services will continue to do you know some short-term financing a part of the business we didn't talk about was the commercial financing we provide short-term working capital through IBM 6000 isness partners so to help them with their free cash flow running their businesses you know that's a pretty big business for us we'll do about you know 14 billion or so in financing to that commercial financing business so I'll see that continue as well and then finally I'm sure you'll see us continue to grow the software and services financing as well and we'll stay with the very very high anything rate for whatever is left of IBM's Hardware portfolio point you made about the partner financing is huge like you said it helps them bridge their free cash flow it makes IBM a more attractive partner for through those resellers and partners it does and we've been in that business for a very very long time oftentimes we are one of the you know largest predators for those partners so the liquidity that we provide Danville allow them to run their businesses day to day with that short term working capital is something that we're very committed to you over the long term for IBM product and services so IBM Global Financing a very important and strategic part of IBM's business a differentiator a very few companies actually can provide that type of service to their clients and so bill really appreciate you coming to the Kuban and sharing that with with our audience great to have you back yeah very much Brad you've been a real pleasure - our pleasure as well thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Volante for the cube our continuous coverage of IBM think 2020 we'll be right back right after this short break you're watching the cube [Music] you

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation CIOs and CISOs of industries that have been hard hit see significant near term and many permanent shifts to their IT and security strategies this was the consensus of four technology executives at leading companies that are feeling the brunt of the corona virus pandemic welcome to this week's cube insights powered by ETR my name is Dave Volante and in this breaking analysis we want to accomplish three things first we want to tap into a new piece of research from ETR it involves an intimate focus group like set up via an open discussion with leading technology executives we interviewed Eric Bradley the managing director of et ours then program and we'll bring him into this discussion the next thing we want to do is we want to drill in to the various sector commentaries from the four leaders third we're gonna comment an hour take try to add some color and then share with you some of the specific vendor commentary that was called out by the executives let's start by looking at what et our event is et our van is a roundtable discussion it applies a tried-and-true methodology similar to a focus group or in-depth interviews what we sometimes in the research business call ID is ETR invites execs in from its community to participate in a private but open conversation et our clients get to listen in the names of the execs and their companies are transparent but the cube is only allowed to refer to them generically as shown on this slide now we can validate these participants they are legit CIOs and CISOs some and very well-known firms now what I want to do is summarize the CIO and seaso sentiment from this then discussion the overall budget impact for these four organizations is very very severe essentially large project projects are being put on hold although digital transformation initiatives remain a priority there were really four significant areas of emphasis that were cited by these execs cloud-first on-prem is losing out to cloud SAS and of course remote access solutions in fact the best comment on the panel was as a service is saving our SAS traditional networking is shifting to SD win especially rigid MPLS networks securing endpoints and zero trust solutions are the winners and there are a number of vendors rising to the occasion that will talk about it let's see how Eric Bradley of ETR summarizes the venn to summarize what we're seeing here was the real winners and losers are clear not everyone was prepared to have it work from home strategy not everyone was prepared to send their workers out there VPN wasn't didn't have enough bandwidth so there was a real quick uptick in spending but longer-term we're starting to see that these changes will be become more permanent so the real winners and losers right now we're going to see on the losers side traditional networking the MPLS networking isn't a lot of trouble according to all the data and the commentary that we see it's expensive it's difficult to ramp up bandwidth as quickly as you need and it doesn't support remote ok what I want to do now is I want to take a look at some of the verbatim comments and I'll just I'll read them from this slide all spending is shut down 70% of big projects are cut all next-gen projects have been shelled the relationship with our SAS vendor has been a miracle we're accelerating from MPLS to sd when on top of secure gateway technologies these will win this was interesting our business continuity plans were way too DR focused essentially we weren't prepared now let's unpack the cloud first commentary and give you some additional color I feel like all we do around here sometimes is talk about the cloud but it's clear from the data in the ETR data set surveys and the venn that in other data from the cube that that the cloud is only going to be accelerated we said this in 2008 in the 2009 downturns have been good to cloud one of the execs literally said I would like to see my data centers completely deleted Wow let's listen to Erik Bradley's take on this comment I was also shocked about that comment that gentleman also stated that his executives outside of the eyeteeth area the CEO the CFO had never ever ever wanted to discuss cloud they did not want to discuss work from home they did not want to discuss remote access he said that conversation has changed immediately so we've been talking a lot about those aspects of people and process and technology that might be permanent post kovat and clearly you see c-level execs as having a bit of an awakening for things like cloud and work from home not that they didn't see them before but these things are gonna accelerate in our view I want to spend a minute talking about networks SAS and bring cloud again into the discussion I gotta say the panel members really trashed MPLS networks in a big way let me explain MPLS stands for multi-protocol label switching you find this type of infrastructure in big telecom networks and it's there to route traffic and pls is used to create dedicated and and essentially reliable connections it enables things like VPNs quality a service management traffic engineering or shaping but well MPLS is definitely cheaper than t1 it's more expensive than Ethernet now I came into prominence well before the cloud and these execs see it is as outdated and inflexible and this is where SD wind comes into play software-defined wide area networks they're gaining popularity especially with the Sassa fication of applications and of course the general trend toward cloud here's Eric Bradley again explaining what the panel members said from his perspectives winners there or in the SD web space it's gonna be impossible to ignore that going forward and some of our CIO and even CISO panelists said that change will be also we're seeing at the same time what they were calling a on on SAS and cloud now we know these trends obviously were already happening but there be they're being exacerbated they're happening even more quickly and more strong and I don't see that changing anytime soon that of course is at the expense of network sorry data centers whether it be your own or hosted which has huge ramifications on from on from Hardware even the firewall providers so and it really seems as if as networking refresh starts to come up and it's coming up with a lot of large in writes when your network refresh comes up people are going to do an RFP for SD web they are sick and tired of paying MPLS network vendors and they really want to look at something else that was even prior to this situation now what we're hearing is this is a permanent change I particularly had one person say I wanted to find this quote real quickly by then but basically they were basically saying that from a permanency perspective the freedom from MPLS will reduce our network spend by over half while more than doubling or tripling or bandwidth now the challenge of course is customers have multiple MPLS contracts with several different vendors and often they just rubber-stamp the renewal but what customers are gonna start doing is layering in SD win and letting those agreements expire ok I want to talk about secure endpoints in this notion of zero trust solutions as I've said in the cube many many times the idea of digging a moat around the castle doesn't protect your queen anymore because the Queen ie the data has left the castle so companies that can secure gateways and secure endpoints they are going to have more momentum during and post kovat now in the panel Z scalar came up a lot in this context as well as fortunate who as I've reported has done a good job in getting its cloud products to market and of course the et our data shows that fortunate and Z scalar both have strong net scores or spending momentum and fort net especially has really strong pervasiveness in the et our dataset as I've reported previously I've also analyzed that there's been evaluation divergence between Palo Alto Networks and fortunate and house II scalar as well is a disruptor in this space I want you to listen to what Eric Bradley said specifically about Z scalar in Palo Alto Networks roll the clip yes it is and I'm glad you brought up Z scalar to very recently by client request we did a very in-depth research on Z scale and versus Palo Alto charisma access and they were very interested this is before all this happened you know does Palo Alto have a chance of catching up taking share from Z scalar and I've had the pleasure myself personally hosting J the CEO of Z scalar at an event here at City and I have nothing but incredible respect for the company but what we found out through this research is Z scalar at the moment their technology is still ahead according to their and there is no doubt however there doesn't seem to be any real secret sauce that will stop palo alto from inching up so if I had to choose that in a year from now Palo Alto might have had a better chance so in this panel as you brought up Z scalar was mentioned numerous times as just the wave of the future along with Cosby brokers right whether you're talking about a net scope or a force point they're all those people that also play in The Cosby space to secure your access zero Trust is no longer a marketing hype term it is real and it is becoming more real by the week now I personally agree with Eric that palo alto is is definitely going to be in the mix customers that we've talked to they want to work with palo alto networks but there's a sea change going on and it's being driven by sass and cloud and now accelerating because a co vid of course that the trend of remote workers is we think here to stay now i want to end by talking about some specific vendor mentions in addition to the ones we've talked about already and this chart shows some of the vendors and their logos that were called out as either being really really helpful during the this pandemic or super important to the CIOs and CISOs these executives really stressed how thankful they are to these companies and that the fact that these companies have worked very closely with them they've been flexible on pricing and payments and they also specifically mentioned how off-put they were by you know this notion of ambulance-chasing for example trials that required them to make some kind of commitment or swipe a credit card they just don't have time for that right now and then of the patience for it now let me call out a few of the companies that were cited in a positive light look at microsoft is all for the ETR data set in so many sectors Microsoft teams security solutions cloud really came up a lot on on this ven IBM was mentioned as being a great partner as what's oracle many many times we talked about fortunate and Z scalar already Cisco was called out as a strategic vendor was very helpful both the networking and with Cisco teams for collaboration CrowdStrike came up a number of times from CISOs as did Trend Micro and carbon black got a mention that's the VMware acquisition insecurity of course MobileIron that makes sense as well because they're securing and managing remote worker devices now finally interesting Lee Salesforce was brought up many times as a critical vendor one exec said that before coronavirus multiple workers could share a Salesforce license by you know sharing passwords but with the spike and work from home they had to purchase more licenses now one last thing that I want to bring up is start ups I got this question the other day from a client who said how a start-ups fair you might think that in this climate especially among for hard-hit customers that there might be risk-averse as it pertains to using startups once cio however said the following paraphrasing you always hear about the guy that says we'll pick three companies in the upper right hand corner the Gartner Magic Quadrant will test them out and this C so said that one of the things that he's always done is picked two from the upper right and one from the lower left one of the emerging techs and he gives them a shot let's listen to how Eric Bradley describes this dynamic roll the clip it's a great comment and honestly if you're in charge of procurement you'd be stupid not to do that not only just to see what the technology is but now I can play you off the big guys because I have negotiating leverage and I could say oh well I could always just take their contract so it's silly not to do it from a business perspective so it's really interesting and somewhat non-intuitive these comments on startups which of course means despite all the consolidation and acquisitions that you see in the industry you know there's still gonna be a lot of fragmentations a fragmentation especially as I've said many many times in the security space people still want best to breed and innovation and if it can drive business value they're gonna they're gonna go for it ok so look I realize that these are narrow comments from for CIOs and CISOs but they give us some added texture and flavor and color to the core ETR data set and we're going to continue to report on these trends and share more details as they become available both from the ETR data set and from other vents and remember we're gonna be digging into the latest ETR survey over the over the coming weeks as ETR exits its self-imposed quiet period so you can always check out ETR dot plus I publish weekly on wiki bang calm and on Silicon angle calm and of course our YouTube library has all these videos that's youtube.com slash silicon angle by the way these segments are also available as podcasts you can DM me or tweet me at devil ante and please by all means comment on my LinkedIn posts or email me at David Galante at Silicon angle com always appreciate the feedback thanks for watching everybody this is breaking analysis brought to you by the cube powered by ETR this is Dave Volante and we'll see you next time thanks for watching [Music]