(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE Live in Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22. John, this is day two of our coverage wall-to-wall three days of coverage on theCUBE. We've been talking a lot about the developer and how the world is starting to really revolve around developer and DevOps portfolios. >> Yes, developers, startups, big companies, all transforming. This next segment, we want to hear from how Dell Technologies cloud natives, big time strategy there and looking forward to it. It's good. It's going to be a great segment. >> Yes, please welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE. Brad Maltz is here, Senior Director of DevOps Portfolio and DevRel for Dell Technologies. Good to see you. >> Thank you guys for having me. >> So, Dell at KubeCon, what's going on? >> Yeah, that's literally the most common question I'm getting. So for us, it's a lot about our customer base is making that transformation into a DevOps world. And they have a ton of Dell and they're like, Hey, from a Dell perspective, how do you help us make that transformation into a DevOps operating model? So we're here to explain that. We're here to talk about infrastructure as code, our container Kubernetes story, our multi-cloud story. We're talking about all of it. >> Tell us about those stories and what the value is in it for companies to work with Dell as they transition. >> So when we look at it from a DevOps perspective for us, it's all about the culture, the operating model shift they're trying to make. And what that means to them is they have to figure out how do they automate all of the stacks they have to deal with. Whether it's going to be server, storage, data protection, network, and all the way up through the hypervisor and Kubernetes. That means they need to work with an ecosystem of tools. Things like Ansible, things like Terraform, all that stuff. Our job is to make our portfolio more consumable in the infrastructure as code space. That's one part of the discussion. The second part of the conversation is Kubernetes won. Kubernetes won the abstraction in this multi-cloud world and we as Dell are helping our customers consume Kubernetes. Whether it's by bringing solutions and more appliance oriented mentality to the market or whether it's actually enabling them with our container storage modules and CSI drivers. >> So it as supercloud as we call or multi-cloud as some people call it, you're starting to see the abstraction for interoperability, but essentially just distributed hybrid cloud. Edge as you guys have a big presence. So Dell's supplying not just the data center anymore. Cloud models are moving to hybrid on-premises, edge is growing. We saw some great use cases where military applications are using Kubernetes and all kinds of new things. So this real examples happening right now. This is going to impact Dell's customers and Dell as a supplier of compute and servers. And the gear that runs everything. Like at a telco, you can have a data center at an edge spot, like a box could be a data center. >> Telco is a great example cause we created the business, the Telco business unit. And in the Telco business unit, our goal was, hey, telco is a little different than enterprise edge. Enterprise edge, retail, manufacturing, healthcare. They have certain needs. Telco, much smaller group of customers that have a much different set of needs. And that's very similar is how do we scale at the edge? How do we control things programmatically? How do we do it in a secure way? And how do we do it so that our people internally don't have to deal with the underpinnings of all that infrastructure. Just make it easier for them. That's our goal through the edge discussions, through telco and all that. >> Yeah. We've been doing a big thing on why hardware matters. Hardware's back. We look at all the hyperscalers, the big competition is faster, faster, faster chips, faster the physics. This is part of the supply chain both hardware and software. Okay. So developers want more power. At the end of the day, this community here wants invisible infrastructure and they want it fast. >> Brad: Yes, that's exactly right. >> There's a lot under the hub. It's still servers. >> You still got firmware, you still got bio, you still got to management operating system, You still got to patch things, kernels, security issues, all of that from a server perspective. We haven't even talked about storage or networking or any of the other stuff. So there's a ton of buttons and dials under the covers. >> And that's totally going to be awesome. And the question comes in, okay, now take me to the cloud native because automation, infrastructures code, these are now the hotspots. Software supply chain, not hardware, software supply chain. So these are all things that are going to be intersecting. What's your view? >> In the multi-cloud view of the world, what we really have are our customers are saying, okay, we started on one cloud, Amazon or Azure or Google. And they're like, you know what? We had to go to a second cloud for whatever reason, many reasons. Now we have to manage two clouds. And by the way, we never got fully off-prem. So now we have all of our on-premises stuff plus multiple clouds. How do we deal with the complexity there? And the complexity there is everything from data problems of data mobility, data protection, replication, all that stuff. How do we deal with the actual application life cycle management across that? And that's where a lot of the tooling we're discussing comes in. That's where Kubernetes comes in and they want to do it in an agnostic way. 'Cause if they can't begin to transition to do it in a standardized layer, then the end of the day they're still going to be managing three totally different environments with three separate engineering teams. >> So is your target audience primarily existing Dell customers, legacy customers, or is it really wide open? >> It's actually been opening up. So we have kind of, the way I view it is we have three different segments that we're going to be going after. We have what I would say is the top 10% of the industry that's really able to skill up into this DevOps world very quickly. They're going to go after the GitOps, they're going to go after all those things. That's a combination of existing customers, but also the really, really large customers that can build their own clouds on-premises. We then have the other end of the spectrum. People that aren't making the shift. People that are like, you know what this DevOps transformation it's not going to help us there, but we still need server and storage and whatnot. And then I like to call it the squishy middle. 60, 70% of the market that's like, we can't scale up in time, we can't hire the people, they're not available 'cause that 10% just got them all, but we still have the same problems. And how do we operate in a world where we have that multi-cloud type of a problem, but we can't find the people. Now you got to figure out more of the no-code, low-code packaged solutions, packaged automation coming from companies like Dell and others. >> So there's customers that are either at the beginning of their journey are not convinced yet. What are some of the barriers that they're seeing that Dell can help them overcome? >> Number one thing, education. >> Lisa: Really? >> We're hearing that consistently here at KubeCon and just customer meetings all over the place. There is a segment of the industry that they're empowered to move into a DevOps model. They don't have the ability or resources. They're not able to say, I've been doing this forever in this way in storage. How do I do that in another thing? And they're scared. They want somebody to come in and kind of handhold them a little bit, but somebody they trust. Somebody they've been working with for a very long time. That's Dell's role. Hands-on labs, training materials, how-to videos, but do it in the comfortable way that they feel like, okay we got this. >> And the success with the customers has been that well-documented. The success with the company, again, continues to survive and thrive in all conditions. So Michael Dell knows what he's doing. Love following his strategy. Michael, if you're watching, I know he watches theCUBE video, congratulations. But now the hard question for Dell is this, the applications used to run on PCs, now they're running PCs under the covers and servers. The application space here at this community is enabled by Kubernetes, is creating a new application runtime like environment. I like, compared to the old app server days when things were like just application specific, development got easier. We're in that renaissance now where the app runtime is being enabled by Kubernetes. You guys been there, done that in the old school, now the new school. What's your view on this Kubernetes? What's Dell's view on? >> Yeah, so back to Kubernetes won in my head. It's just flat out won and part of the reason, and it beat out a lot of things. You remember Cloud Foundry, which there's still a thing, but Cloud Foundry went a little too far up into the application stack and constrained the application developers a bit too much. Kubernetes success is two things. It's because they're not constraining the developer, but they're also figuring out how to enable that IT operations mindset. And they become that happy medium that's out there. So now all of a sudden, application modernization conversations and cloud-native app development, there is a standard package. There's standard load balancing and security paradigm, standard registration mechanisms, all built into the Kubernetes layer, by the way, enabled by an ecosystem. And because they're actually going through that, what's happening now is we can finally move forward. We can take that next step and we can build around that ecosystem of Kubernetes. >> That is thematically something that we've been hearing, John, for the last day and a half is the maturation of Kubernetes People, what's next? We are ready for the next step. Talk about Dell as an enabler of that. >> Yeah, so a funny, another part of that paradigm is Kubernetes does not equal virtualization. And this is a hard one in this industry right now. A lot of people say, well, yeah, we did the VMware pivot and then the KVM and everything else and they're like, this is just another one of those pivots. I'm like, no it's not. Virtualization was the pivot of physical hardware became virtual hardware, but you still thought of it in CPU memory disc and you managed it in the same way. Kubernetes, it's a such a different way of thinking about operationalization and all that abstraction that what we're realizing is people need to take baby steps into Kubernetes right now. The maturity of it is great because there is an ecosystem around it, but the majority of the industry isn't even aware of the basics of Kubernetes right now. So our job, we look at it as the education part, but also can we deliver the solutions together with the OpenShift's of the world and the Tanzu's of the world and the Rancher's of the world. Can we deliver more of that full stack experience going into the next few years? That's where we believe we can help accelerate them. Education and that delivery mechanism. >> And the community support is going to be there too. You got to have the. >> 100%. >> The community, not just education, which you guys done before, but doing it with open source vibe. >> That's where DevRel comes in. So the DevRel half of my world now is all about Dell in the community. And to be part of community isn't just to say, Hey, I'm going to go sponsor something. That's not community to me. >> It doesn't hurt. >> It doesn't hurt, but we're going to do that. We're definitely going to help with that. What our notion is you got to participate, you got to contribute, you got to be there, you got to be part of the community. That's part of my developer relations team is to become part of it. >> You got to be part of it and belong. Belonging is earning. >> Brad: Yes. >> And that's the key. And the other thing we were talking about standards and Dell has won a lot of business 'cause the PC and the servers all had standards, standard components. Standards now in the community are being driven by developer consensus. >> Brad: Yes. >> So that is an interesting new paradigm. So if you make cloud native work where all the hardware and software that's powering the builders is invisible. The developers will tell you what they want. >> 100%. >> And that's why your Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry example is so on point. It's a little bit nuanced, but what happened there is, let's explain Kubernetes was loosely de facto enabling. They didn't try to take too much territory. They didn't over push. >> Brad: Exactly. >> They were very flexible, lightweight at first, but it was enabling. >> It was organic. >> And we called it on theCUBE, I'm not going to lie, we called that early on. So props to us. >> Brad: Good job. >> Pat on the back. >> Lisa: Pat your own back. >> We get it right a lot. But now there's impact though. But the Dell I think speaks to the theme here, which just we talked is that you got startups here. We had from Envoy, we saw the donator there. He started his own company. You got Dell, which has large enterprises running massive workloads with a lot of legacy and modernization. So you got a combination of both coming together. This is going to be a collision of innovation. >> Oh I look, that's exactly right. Part of what I've been getting is not just the end users, the infrastructure developers, and whatnot around here. Startups look, come to Dell, and they're like, why are you here? Like we build this and we don't talk to you. And we're like, why not? If we come to market and start delivering more of those Kubernetes oriented solutions and the Kubernetes stack experience, that's where you guys should be working with us. You're part of the ecosystem. >> Well, your job is to say to them, look it when you want to write your software for the edge and we have market share of the most hardware at the edge, 'cause we perform better on the edge. No one wants to write software on the slower platform. >> No. >> Name me one I want to write software that's just, this is something, but people don't understand that's why you're here. >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> The game is about performance. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Cloud can do it, you can do it with a machine. So it depends where in the distributed computing chain you're at. >> You bring up one topic that actually isn't a core discussion topic around DevOps, but I am seeing more HPC and a AI/ML conversations popping up in this DevOps cloud native space. 'Cause even the market of HPC, which is a very traditional market, commodity server driven in the past, they're starting to say, how do I take advantage of Kubernetes and all of the benefits that we've been talking about. >> What are some of the things that you've heard like in your sense is the key theme or the talk track of Kubernetes, its evolution? What's on the developer's minds the last day and a half at this conference? >> Oh, okay. That's a hard question, but a good one. So the way I look at it is probably it's the robustness of the features within Kubernetes, not the native features, but even partner included features. They just want to be able to handle security in a much more, I hate to say zero trust, but secure cloud native way. There's tools in the Kubernetes ecosystem that are so integrated into Kubernetes. They don't have to think sometimes as much about how do they do it themselves. They can go find through open source or off-the-shelf startup and say, I need that and I can spin it up in about five minutes and now I'm doing that without having to spend weeks or months and having to build that. And that's security is one example. You can go through the networking discussion, you can go through so many different areas. The fact is because of community and the ecosystem, that is the winning formula for Kubernetes to enable the development. That's all I'm hearing here is they're like, give me more, give me more startups, give me more of these technologies. >> And ease of use has been a big topic here. We've been talking before we came on camera about VMware has done great since it used the virtual machine example versus Kubernetes. That is millions of developers and operators on VMware. They have about 200,000 plus just in VMUG alone. So they are going to transform their careers. They're looking for a home. They're looking for a community for the next 10 years. I mean, VMware will still be around with Broadcom, but I'm speculating that it will be much more in maintenance mode. But to get someone's career in fourth gear, fifth gear, you got to go and get that next skill set, and that's the question. Where do all these operators, IT operators go to become enterprise operators? >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> That is a big topic. What's your reaction? >> Sp I'm actually a living proof of that. I grew up in the VMware ecosystem. And for me making that pivot, it took me many years. One of the ways I did that was I actually have run in Dell, our advanced development pivotal Dojos, if you remember Pivotal. >> Yes. >> And doing the Pair Programming in Agile. It took me that mental shift to say, okay, we were doing it that way and now there's a new way to do it through code with developers and using all the new buzzwords. And that pivot is different for somebody that's just starting now, and they don't have access to a Dojo that they can go handle like a whole bunch of pair programmers. How do they make that pivot? That's 100% what we have to do. >> Okay, so my question is this, this is a hard question for you, maybe you can answer or not or maybe you can. What's different now than the attempt in the past from Dell EMC to do work or align with the developers? I think, was it five, six years ago, it was an effort. Was it timing? What's different now from then? >> So that attempt was awesome. That team was great. I was very close to that team and that was from the EMC side originally is where they have built that out. And the notion of that was that we just have to go start contributing knowledge and technology into the community and start really taking the brand and trying to expand the brand to be relevant in that community. Nothing wrong. That was actually an amazing way they did it. I think through the merger there was definitely a little bit of, okay, well, maybe this isn't one of our top priorities right now and that's probably what happened through the actual merger. >> John: It's a little bit distraction. >> It was distraction. >> Timings wasn't as good now. >> You try merging a 67 billion merger. I mean it's just really hard to do. What happened here is I think we finally got past a lot of that with the merger and now we're in steady stage/growth mode, which is a notion that now we can go and do this again in the new world, taking our lessons learned from what we did before, and try to actually go and update that in these new power apps. >> And you could point to some specific timing issues. Like at that time this community wasn't as advanced along. Kubernetes wasn't as clear. Visibility to that value proposition. Although a lot of people were speculating what happened that way. >> Exactly. >> But now with multi-cloud, I think developers starting to see the reality that it ain't going to be one cloud. >> Well, multi-cloud is not one cloud, so 100%. >> Well, I mean there's multi-cloud today, but it's really not multi-cloud by the way it could be. The people have multiple clouds. I think that gives developers comfort that existing enterprise players. Remember Microsoft wasn't really in the cloud game six, seven years ago. Look where they are now. Significant progress, nipping at the heels of AWS. So all the enterprise players are back at the table. >> Brad: Yeah, definitely. We're here. >> And that's timing issue. >> We're here. >> Talk about, you're here, you are helping customers get to the basics of Kubernetes. You talked a lot about the importance of the education. >> Brad: Yes. >> That screams to me that Dell can be a facilitator of cultural change within organizations, whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer or whatnot. Another thing that I'm curious about, what you guys are doing, how you've evolved, Dell is a massive partner ecosystem. How is the partner ecosystem involved in helping customers build their DevOps portfolios and really start embracing, understanding, and learning about Kubernetes? >> So that's an ever changing world right now. And that's part of why we're here at KubeCon is to help expand that. We have a very, very strong partner community. Not even just channel, but like technology partner community. And our goal is to understand with our DevOps portfolio what needs to be the next step of that partner community. Do we have to go partner up with like the, I'll use examples, the Solo.io. Do we have to partner up with all the mesh companies, the HashiCorp, which we are, We have to understand where the layers that make sense and where don't. There are some that don't make sense because they're so often to an app developer land or they're so far above even Kubernetes sometimes that maybe they don't make sense in our partner community. >> How influential are, I know we got to go soon, but how influential are your customers in helping to make some of those decisions? It's all about the customer at the end of the day. >> They're the only one that's deciding for us. They have to come to us. We have to see the need. We have to understand the discussions through our sales mechanisms, our other mechanisms. We're using that data every single day, every hour to make those decisions. >> Awesome. Brad, it's been great to have you. Sorry we took more of your time than we planned, but it was so interesting. >> No, this is awesome. >> Dell at KubeCon, you've done a great job of explaining why that absolutely resonates, the relevance, and why customers should be looking at Dell as their partner for this. Thank you so much for your time and your insights. >> Thank you guys. >> All right. For John Furrier and our guest, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22 from Detroit, Michigan. Stick around, our next guest will be here in just a minute. (gentle music)

(bright music) (crowd talking indistinctly in the background) >> Hey guys, welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. theCUBE is live at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2022. You might notice something really unique here. Lisa Martin with our newest co-host of theCUBE, Savannah Peterson! Savannah, it's great to see you. >> It's so good to be here with you (laughs). >> I know, I know. We have a great segment coming up. I always love talking couple things, cars, one, two, with companies that have been around for a hundred plus years and how they've actually transformed. >> Oh yeah. >> Ford is here. You have a great story about how you, about Ford. >> Ford brought me to Detroit the first time. I was here at the North American International Auto Show. Some of you may be familiar, and the fine folks from Ford brought me out to commentate just like this, as they were announcing the Ford Bronco. >> Satish: Oh wow. >> Which I am still lusting after. >> You don't have one yet? >> For the record. No, I don't. My next car's got to be an EV. Although, ironically, there's a Ford EV right behind us here on set today. >> I know, I know. >> Which we were both just contemplating before we went live. >> It's really shiny. >> We're going to have to go check it out. >> I have to check it out. Yep, we'll do that. Yeah. Well, please welcome our two guests from Ford, Satish Puranam, is here, The Technical Leader at Cloud and Rebecca Risk, Principal Architect, developer relations. We are so excited to have you guys on the program. >> Clearly. >> Thanks for joining us. (all laugh) >> Thank you for having us. >> I love you're Ford enthusiasts! Yeah, that's awesome. >> I drive a Ford. >> Oh, awesome! Thank you. >> I can only say that's one car company here. >> That's great. >> Yes, yes. >> Great! Thank you a lot. >> Thank you for your business! >> Absolutely. (all laugh) >> So, Satish, talk to us a little bit about- I mean I think of Cloud as a car company but it seems like it's a technology company that makes cars. >> Yes. Talk to us about Ford as a Cloud first, technology driven company, and then we're going to talk about what you're doing with Red Hat and Boston University. >> Yeah, I'm like everything that all these cars that you're seeing, beautiful right behind us it's all built on, around, and with technology, right? So there's so much code goes into these cars these days, it's probably, it's mind boggling to think that probably your iPhones might be having less code as opposed to these cars. Everything from control systems, everything is code. We don't do any more clay models. Everything is done digital, 3D, virtual reality and all that stuff. So all that takes code, all of that takes technology. And we have been in that journey for the last- since 2016 when we started our first mobile app and all that stuff. And of late we have been like, heavily invested in Google. Moving a lot of these experiences, data acquisition systems AI/ML modeling for like all the autonomous cars. It's all technology and like from the day it is conceived, to the day it is marketed, to the day when you show up for a servicing, and hopefully soon how you can buy and you know, provide feedback to us, is all technology that drives all of this stuff. So it's amazing for us to see everything that we go and immerse ourselves in the technology. There is a real life thing that we can see what we all do for it, right? So- >> Yes, we're only sorry that our audience can't actually see the car, >> Yep. >> but we'll get some B-roll for you later on. Rebecca, talk a little bit about your role. Here we are at KubeCon, Savannah and I and John were talking when we went live this morning, that this is huge. That the show floor is massive, a lot bigger than last year. The collaboration and the spirit of the community is not only alive and well, as we heard in the keynote this morning, it's thriving. >> Yeah. >> Talk about developer relations at Ford and what you are helping to drive in your role. >> Yeah, so my team is all about helping developers work faster with different platforms that my team curates and produces, so that our developers don't have to deal with all of the details of setting up their environments to actually code. And we have really great people, kind of the top software developers in the company, are part of my team to produce those products that other people can use, and accelerate their development. And we have a great relationship with the developers in the company and outside with the different vendor relationships that we have, to make sure that we're always producing the next platform with the next tech stack that our developers will want to continue to use to produce the really great products that we are all about making at Ford. >> Let's dig in there a little bit because I'm curious and I suspect you both had something to do with it. How did you approach your Cloud Native transformation and how do you evaluate new technologies for the team? >> It's sometimes- many a times I would say it's like dogfooding and like experimentation. >> Yeah. Isn't anything in innovation a lot of- >> Yeah, a lot of experimentation. We started our, as I said, the Cloud Native journey back in 2016 with Cloud Foundry and things, technologies around that. Soon realized, that there was like a lot of buzz around that time. Twelve-Factor was a thing, Stateless was a thing. And then all those Stateful needs to drive the Stateless. So where do we do that thing? And the next logical iteration was Kubernetes was bursting upon the scene at that time. So we started doing a lot of experimentation. >> Like the Kool-Aid man, burst on the Kubernetes scene- >> Exactly right. >> Through the wall. >> So, the question is like, why can't we do? I think we were like crazy enough to say that Kubernetes people are talking about our serverless or Twelve-Factor on Kubernetes. We are crazy enough to do Stateful on Kubernetes and we've been doing it successfully for five years. So it's a lot about experimentation. I think good chunk of experiments that we do do not yield the results that we get, but many a times, some of them are like Gangbusters. Like, other aspects that we've been doing of late is like partnering with Becky and rest of the organization, right? Because they are the people who are like closest to the developers. We are somewhat behind the scenes doing some things but it is Becky and the rest of the architecture teams who are actually front and center with the customers, right? So it is the collaborative effort that we've been working through past few years that has been really really been useful and coming around and helping us to make some of these products really beautiful. >> Yeah, well you make a lot of beautiful products. I think we've all, I think we've all seen them. Something that I think is really interesting and part of why I was so excited for this interview, and kind of nudged John out, was because you've been- Ford has been investing in technology in a committed way for decades and I don't think most people are aware of that. When I originally came out to Dearborn, I learned that you've had a head of VR who happens to be a female. For what it's worth, Elizabeth, who's been running VR for you for two and a half decades, for 25 years. >> Satish: Yep. >> That is an impressive commitment. What is that like from a culture perspective inside of Ford? What is the attitude around innovation and technology? >> So I've been a long time Ford employee. I just celebrated my 29th year. >> Oh, wow! >> Congratulations! >> Wow, congrats! That's a huge deal. >> Yeah, it's a huge deal. I'm so proud of my career and all that Ford has brought to me and it's just a testament. I have many colleagues like me who've been there for their whole career or have done other things and come to Ford and then spent another 20 years with us because we foster the culture that makes you want to stay. We have development programs to allow you to upscale and change your role and learn new things and play with the new technologies that people are interested in doing and really make an impact to our community of developers at Ford or the company itself and the results that we're delivering. So to have that, you know, culture for so many years that people really love to work. They love to work with the people that they're working with. They love to stay engaged and they love the fact that you can have many different careers within the same umbrella, which we call the "blue oval". And that's really why I've been there for so long. I think I probably had 13 very unique and different jobs along the way. It's as if I left, and you know shopped around my skills elsewhere. But I didn't ever have to leave the company. It's been fabulous. >> The cultural change and adoption of- embracing modern technology- Cloud Native automotive software is impressive because a lot of historied companies, you guys have been there a long time, have challenges with that because it's really hard to get an entire moving, you'll call it the blue oval, to change and adapt- >> Savannah: I love that. >> and be willing to experiment. So that that is impressive. Talk about, you go by Becky, so I'll call you Becky, >> Rebecca/Becky: Yeah. >> The developer culture in terms of the developers really being the center of the nucleus of influencing the direction in which the company's going. I imagine that they probably are fairly influential. >> Yeah, so I had a very- one of the unique positions I held was a culture change for our department, Information Technology in 2016. >> Satish: Yeah. >> As the teacher was involved with moving us to the cloud, I was responsible- >> You are the transformation team! This is beautiful. I love this. We've got the right people on the show. >> Yeah, we do. >> I was responsible for changing the culture to orient our employees to pay attention to what do we want to create for tomorrow? What are the kind of skills we need to trust each other to move quickly. And that was completely unique. >> Satish: Yeah. >> Like I had men in the trenches delivering software before that, and then plucked out because they wanted someone, you know who had authentic experience with our development team to be that voice. And it was such a great investment that Ford continues to do is invest in our culture transformation. Because with each step forward that we do, we have to refine what our priorities are. And you do that through culture transformation and culture management. And that's been, I think really, the key to our successful pivots that we've made over the last six years that we've been able to continue to refine and hone where we really want to go through that culture movement. >> Absolutely. I think if I could add another- >> Please. >> spotlight to it is like the biggest thing about Ford has been among various startup-like culture, right? So the idea is that we encourage people to think outside the box, right? >> Savannah: Or outside the oval? >> Right! (laughs) >> Lisa: Outside the oval, yes! >> Absolutely! Right. >> So the question is like, you can experiment with various things, new technologies and you will get all the leadership support to go along with it. I think that is very important too and like we can be in the trenches and talk about all of these nice little things but who the heck would've thought that, you know Kubernetes was announced in 2015, in late 2016, we have early dev Kubernetes clusters already running. 2017, we are live with workloads on Kubernetes! >> Savannah: Early adopters over here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm like all of this thing doesn't happen without lot of foresight and support from the leadership, but it's also the grassroot efforts that is encouraged all along to be on the front end of all of these things and try different things. Some of them may not work >> Savannah: Right. >> But that's okay. But how do we know we are doing something, if you're not failing? We have to fail in order to do something, right? >> Lisa: I always say- >> So I think that's been a great thing that is encouraged very often and otherwise I would not be doing, I've done a whole bunch of stuff at Ford. Without that kind of ability to support and have an appetite for, some of those things would not have been here at all. >> I always say failure is not a bad F-word. >> Satish: Yep. >> Savannah: I love that. >> But what you're talking about there is kind of like driving this hot wheel of experimentation. You have to have the right culture and the mindset- >> Satish: Absolutely. >> to do that. Try fail, move on, learn, iterate, go. >> Satish: Correct. >> You guys have a great partnership with Red Hat and Boston University. You're speaking about that later today. >> Satish: Yes. >> Unpack that for us. What, from a technical perspective, what are you doing and what's it resulting in? >> Yeah, I think the biggest thing is Becky was talking about as during this transformation journey, is lot has changed in very small amount of time. So we traditionally been like, "Hey, here's a spreadsheet of things I need you to deliver for me" to "Here is a catalog of things, you can get it today and be successful with it". That is frightening to several of our developers. The goal, one of the things that we've been working with Q By Example, Red Hat and all the thing, is that how can we lower the bar for the developers, right? Kubernetes is great. It's also a wall of YAML. >> It's extremely complex, number one complaint. >> The question is how can I zero on? I'm like, if we go back think like when we talk about in cars with human-machine interfaces, which parts do I need to know? Here's the steering wheel, here's the gas pedal, or here's the brake. As long as you know these two, three different things you should be fairly be okay to drive those things, right? So the idea of some of the things with enablementing we are trying to do is like reduce that barrier, right? Reduce- lower the bar so that more people can participate in it. >> One of the ways that you did that was Q By Example, right, QBE? >> Satish: Yes, Yes. >> Can you tell us a little bit more about that as you finish this answer? >> Yeah, I think the biggest thing with Q By Example is like Q By Example gives you the small bite-sized things about Kubernetes, right? >> Savannah: Great place to start. >> But what we wanted to do is that we wanted to reinforce that learning by turning into a real world living example app. We took part info, we said, Hey, what does it look like? How do I make sure that it is highly available? How do I make sure that it is secure? Here is an example YAML of it that you can literally verbatim copy and paste into your editor and click run and then you will get an instant gratification feedback loop >> I was going to say, yeah, they feel like you're learning too! >> Yes. Right. So the idea would be is like, and then instead of giving you just a boring prose text to read, we actually drop links to relevant blog posts saying that, hey you can just go there. And that has been inspirational in terms of like and reinforcing the learning. So that has been where we started working with the Boston University, Red Hat and the community around all of that stuff. >> Talk a little bit about, Becky, about some of the business outcomes. You mentioned things like upskilling the workforce which is really nice to hear that there's such a big focus on it. But I imagine too, there's more participation in the community, but also from an end customer perspective. Obviously, everything Ford's doing is to serve the end customers >> Becky: Right. How does this help the end customer have that experience that they really, these days, demand with patience being something that, I think, is gone because of the pandemic? >> Right? Right. So one of the things that my team does is we create the platforms that help Accelerate developers be successful and it helps educate them more quickly on appropriate use of the platforms and helps them by adopting the platforms to be more secure which inherently lead to the better results for our end customers because their data is secure because the products that they have are well created and they're tested thoroughly. So we catch all those things earlier in the cycle by using these platforms that we help curate and produce. And that's really important because, like you had mentioned, this steep learning curve associated with Kubernetes, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> So my team is able to kind of help with that abstraction so that we solve kind of the higher complex problems for them so that developers can move faster and then we focus our education on what's important for them. We use things like Q By Example, as a source instead of creating that content ourselves, right? We are able to point them to that. So it's great that there's that community and we're definitely involved with that. But that's so important to help our developers be successful in moving as quickly as they want and not having 20,000 people solve the same problems. >> Satish: (chuckles) Yeah. >> Each individually- >> Savannah: you don't need to! >> and sometimes differently. >> Savannah: We're stronger together, you know? >> Exactly. >> The water level rises together and Ford is definitely a company that illustrates that by example. >> Yeah, I'm like, we can't make a better round wheel right? >> Yeah! So, we have to build upon what we have already been built ahead of us. And I think a lot of it is also about how can we give back and participate in the community, right? So I think that is paramount for us as like, here we are in Detroit so we're trying to recruit and show people that you know, everything that we do is not just old car and sheet metal >> Savannah: Combustion. >> and everything and right? There's a lot of tech goes and sometimes it is really, really cool to do that. And biggest thing for us is like how can we involve our community of developers sooner, earlier, faster without actually encumbering them and saying that, hey here is a book, go master it. We'll talk two months later. So I think that has been another journey. I think that has been a biggest uphill challenge for us is that how can we actually democratize all of these things for everybody. >> Yeah. Well no one better to try than you I would suspect. >> We can only try and hope everything turns out well, right? >> You know, as long as there's room for the bumpers on the lane for if you fail. >> Exactly. >> It sounds like you're driving the program in the right direction. Closing question for you, what's next? Is electric the future? Is Kubernetes the future? What's Ford all in on right now, looking forward? (crowd murmuring in the background) >> Data is the king, right? >> Savannah: Oh, okay, yes! >> Data is a new currency. We use that for several things to improve the cars improve the quality of autonomous driving Is Level 5 driving here? Maybe will be here soon, we'll see. But we are all working towards it, right? So machine learning, AI feedback. How do you actually post sale experience for example? So all of these are all areas that we are working to. We are, may not be getting like Kubernetes in a car but we are putting Kubernetes in plants. Like you order a Marquis or you order a Bronco, you see that here. Here's where in the assembly line your car is. It's taking pictures. It's actually taking pictures on Kubernetes platform. >> That's pretty cool. >> And it is tweeting for you on the Twitter and the social media platform. So there's a lot of that. So it is real and we are doing it. We need more help. A lot of the community efforts that we are seeing and a lot of the innovation that is happening on the floor here, it's phenomenal. The question is how we can incorporate those things into our workflows. >> Yeah, well you have the right audience for that here. You also have the right attitude, >> Exactly. >> the right appetite, and the right foundation. Becky, last question for you. Top three takeaways from your talk today. If you're talking to the developer community you want to inspire: Come work for us! What would you say? >> If you're ready to invest in yourself and upskill and be part of something that is pretty remarkable, come work for us! We have many, many different technical career paths that you can follow. We invest in our employees. When you master something, it's time for you to move on. We have career growth for you. It's been a wonderful gift to me and my family and I encourage everyone to check us out careers.ford.com or stop by our booth if you're happen to be here in person. >> Satish: Absolutely! >> We have our curated job openings that are specific for this community, available. >> Satish: Absolutely. >> Love it. Perfect close. Nailed pitch there. I'm sure you're all going to check out their job page. (all laugh) >> Exactly! And what you talked about, the developer experience, the customer experience are inextricably linked and you guys are really focused on that. Congratulations on all the work that you've done. We got to go get a selfie with that car girl. >> Yes, we do. >> Absolutely. >> We got to show them, we got to show the audience what it looks like on the inside too. We'll do a little IG video. (Lisa laughs) >> Absolutely. >> We will show you that for our guests and my cohost, Savannah Peterson. Lisa Martin here live in Detroit with theCUBE at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2022. The one and only John Furrier, who you know gets FOMO, is going to be back with me next. So stick around. (all laugh) (bright music)

>>The queue presents Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture, Silicon angle. We are going to talk to some amazing folks, especially in today's segment. Paul there's a lot of companies here, like what what's been the, the consistent theme you've heard so far in the show. >>Well, you know, one thing that's different from this show, it seems to me than others I've attended is it's all around open source. We're not seeing a lot of companies bringing new proprietary technology to market. We are seeing them try to piece together, open source components with some kind of, perhaps there's a proprietary element to it, but to create some kind of a, a common management interface or control plane, and that's quite different from what I think we've seen in the past and open source business models have been difficult to make work historically. And these companies are all taking their, their own approaches to it. But I think the, the degree to which this, the people here of coalesced around the importance of open source is building blocks to the future of, of applications is something I've not seen quite this way before. >>Well, with our current segment guests, we're gonna go deep into kind of these challenges and how enterprises are addressing, and their partners are addressing with those challenges we have with us, a flower head of cloud native HCL technologies. We'll get into how a system integrator is helping with this transition to Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Welcome to the show. You're now cute. Alum. Welcome. >>Thanks for having us. >>So we're gonna get right off, off the bat. We're gonna talk about this. What are some of the trends you're seeing when it comes to application migration? You've done, I'm assuming at this point, thousands of them, what are some of the common trends? >>Well, it's a very good question. And clearly a C we've helped thousands of clients move tens of thousands of applications to what we would call a cloud native, you know, environment. I think the overwhelming trend that we're seeing of course is clients realize it's a particularly complex, sophisticated journey. It requires a certain set of skills and capability clients increasingly asking us for anything that we can do to simplify and accelerate the journey, cuz what's really important to clients. If you're on a transformation journey to cloud is you wanna see some value very quickly. So I don't wanna wait three to five years to transform my applications portfolio. If you can do something in three to five days, that would be perfect. Thank you. >>Well, three to five days, that sounds more akin to when we were doing P to V or V to V migrations, I'm sure HCL is at this point done in the millions of those types of migrations. What are some of the challenges or the nuance in doing a traditional migration from a traditional MI monolithic application to a cloud native? >>Well, it's another good question. Of course you notice that there's a general trend in the industry. Clients don't really want to lift and shift anymore. Lift and shift doesn't really bring any transformational value to my, to my company. So clients are looking for increasingly what we could call cloud native modernization. I want my applications to really take advantage of the cloud native environment. They need to be elastic and kind of more robust than maybe before now in particular, I think a lot of clients have realized that this state of Nirvana, which was we're gonna modernize everything to be a cloud native microservices based application. That is a tremendous journey, but no client really has the time patient or resources to fully refactor or rearchitect all of their applications. They're looking for more immediate kind of impact. So a key trend that we've seen of course is clients still want to refactor and modernize applications, but they're focusing those resources on those applications that will bring greater impact to their business. >>What they now see as a better replacement for lift and shift is probably what we would call replatforming, where they want all of the advantages of a cloud native environment, but they haven't necessarily got the time to modernize the code base. They wanna refactor to Kubernetes and re replatform to Kubernetes in particular, and they want us to take them there quickly. And that's why, for example, this week at cuon eight sellers announced a new set of tools called KMP based on conveyor, an open source project supported by red hat. And the key attraction of KMP is it lets me replatform my applications to Kubernetes immediately, right? Within two or three minutes, I can bring an application from a legacy platform directly onto Kubernetes and I can take it straight into production. That's the kind of acceleration that clients are looking for today. Isn't >>That just a form of lift and shift though? >>Well, no lift and shift typically of course, was moving virtual machines from one place to another. You know, the focus of Kubernetes of course is containerization of solutions. And it's not just about containerizing the solution and movement. It it's the DevOps tool chain around the solution as well. And of course, when I take that application into production in a Kubernetes based environment, I'm expecting to operate it in a different way as well. So that's where we see tremendous focus on what we would call cloud native operations clients expecting to use practices like site reliability engineering, to run these replatformed applications in a different way to, >>It sounds like you're saying, I mean, replatforming has been a, a spectrum of options. I think Gartner has seven different types of platforming. Are you seeing clients take more mature attitude now to replatforming? Are they looking more carefully at the characteristics of their legacy applications and, and try to try to make maybe more nuanced choices about what to replatform, what to just leave >>Alone? I think clients and I I'm sure Ramon's got some comments on this too, but clients have a lot more insight now in terms of what works for them. They they've realized that this, this promise of maybe a microservices based applications estate is a good one, but I can't do that for every application. If I am a large enterprise with several thousand applications in my portfolio, I can't refactor everything to become microservices based. So clients see replatforming possibly it's a middle ground. I, I get a lot of the advantages from a cloud native environment. My applications are inherently more efficient, hopefully a lot more performance. >>Yeah. It's, it's a matter of software delivery performance. Yeah. So legacy workloads will definitely benefit from being brought into Kubernetes in the software delivery per performance department. So it's a matter of somehow revamping your, your legacy applications and getting the benefits in, in life's application, life cycle management, a full tolerance and all that stuff. It's about leveraging the, what Kubernetes offers. >>When you say bringing legacy applications into Kubernetes. It's not that simple, right? I mean, what's involved in doing that. >>It, it, isn't, it's just a matter of taking a holistic view at your application portfolio and understanding the nuance sets of each application type within your organization and trying to come up with a suitable migration strategy for each one of these application types. And for that, what we're trying to do is provide a series of standardized tools and methodologies from a community perspective, we created this conveyor community. It, it was kick started by red hat and IBM, but we are trying to bring as many vendors and GSI as possible to try to set up these standards to make these road towards Kubernetes as easy as >>Possible. So we've done a little bit of app modernization in the CTO advisor hybrid infrastructure. And one of the things that we've found is there's plenty of Avan advantages. If I take a monolithic application that has that I've traditionally had to scale off to game performance, I can take selective parts of that, and now I can add autoscaling to it. Exactly. However, as I look at a landscape Allen of thousands of applications, I need to dedicate developer resources to get that done in my traditional environment. But my traditional environment is busy building new. My traditional or my developers are building new applications and new capabilities. I just don't have the resources to do that. How does HCL and red hat team together to kind of fast track that capability? >>Well, I'll comment on two things in particular, actually the, the first thing when it comes to skilling, I think the thing that's really surprised us at HCL is so many of our clients around the world have said, we are desperately short of skills. We cannot hire ourselves out of this problem. We need to get our existing developer community reskilled around platforms like OpenShift, conveyor, and other projects too. So the first thing that's happened to us at eight seal is we've been incredibly busy undertaken, probably what we would call developer workforce modernization, right? Where we have to help the client reskill their entire technical and developer community to give them the skills, right. So we will help the clients develop a community, build the cloud native understanding, help them understand how to modernize tools for example, or applications. But the second thing I mention is, and this comes back to a comment the Ram made around around conveyor. >>It's been really encouraging to see the open source community, start to invest in building the supporting frameworks around my kind of modernization journey, because if I'm a developer that's reskilling and I'm attempting to maybe modernize an application, being able to dip into an opensource project, I mean, a good example would be tackled part of the conveyor project. Exactly. You now have open source based tools that will help you analyze your applications. They will go into the source code and they will give the developer guidance in terms of what would be effective treatments to undertake. So perhaps a development team that are new to this modernization journey, they would benefit from a project like conveyor, for example, exactly because I need to know where can I safely modernize my application now for experience organizations like HCL that comes naturally to us, but for people who are just starting this journey, if I can take an open source tool like tackle or the rest of conveyor, for example, and use that to accelerate my journey, it takes a lot of pressure off, off my organization, but it also accelerates the journey too. And >>It's not just a matter of, of tooling. We we're also, opensourcing the, the modernization methodology that we've been using in red hat consulting for years. So this whole conveyor communities, it's all about knowledge sharing on one hand and building a set of tools together based on that knowledge that we are sharing to make it as easy as possible. >>And what role does red hat play in all that, I mean is your, your, you you've carved out this position for yourself as the, as the true open source company. Is that, does that position you for a leadership role in helping or companies make this >>Transition? I wouldn't say we should be leading the whole thing. We, we kick started it, but we want to get other vendors on board for this thing. One cool thing about the Camra community is that IBM is opensourcing a lot of their IP. So IBM research is on board. In this thing, we have some really crazy stuff related to a AI being applied to application analysis. We have some machine learning in place. We have very cool stuff that has been sitting on a, on a corner in IBM research for quite some years that now it's being open sourced and integrated in a unified user experience to streamline the modernization process as much as possible. >>So let's talk about the elephant of the room. HCL was leading the conversation around cloud Foundry circa five plus years ago. And as customers are thinking about their journey to cloud native, how should they think about that cloud Foundry to cloud native or Kubernetes replatform? >>Well with within the cloud Foundry community, we've, we've been quite staunched supporters of Kubernetes for quite some time, right? It's, it's quite a, a stated intent of the cloud Foundry foundation to, to move across to Kubernetes platform right now that is a significant engineering journey for cloud Foundry to take. Now we're in this position where a lot of large users of cloud Foundry have a certain urgency to their journey. They, they want to consolidate on a single Kubernetes based infrastructure. We, we see a lot of traction around OpenShift, for example, from red hat in terms of its market leadership. So a lot of clients are saying we would like to consolidate all of our platforms around a single kind of Kubernetes vendor, whether that's red hat or anyone else, you know, quite frankly. So what HCL is doing right now with the tools and the solutions we've announced this week is we're simply accelerating that journey for clients. If I've got a large installed base of applications running in my cloud Foundry environment, and I've also started to invest in standardize on Kubernetes place platforms like OpenShift, most clients would see it as quite a sensible choice to now try and consolidate those two environments into one. And that's simply what we're doing at HCL. We're making it very, very easy. In fact, we fully automated the journey so I can move all of my applications from cloud Foundry into for example, OpenShift pretty much immediately, and it just simplifies the entire journey. >>So the, as we start to wrap up the segment, I like to know customer stories. What, what, how customers either surprised or challenged when they get into, even with the help of an ACL in redhead, why are they seeing the most difficult parts of their migrations? >>Well, my, my simple comment would be maybe complexity, right? And the, the associated requirement for skilled people to undertake this modernization work, right? We spoke about this, of course, in terms of clients now are a lot more realistic. They understand that their ambition now needs to be somewhat tempered by their ability to sort of drive modernization quickly. So we see a lot of clients when they look at their very large global portfolios of applications, they're trying to invest their resources in the higher priority applications, the revenue generative applications in particular, but they have to bring everything else with them as well. Now, a common kind of separation point was we see a lot of clients who might say I'm gonna properly modernize and refactor, maybe five to 10% of my portfolio, but the other 90% also needs to come on the journey as well. And that's really where replatforming in particular kicks in. So, so the key trend again, is, is clients send to us, I've gotta take the entire journey. All right, I've got the resources and the skills to really focus on this much of my application base. Can someone simplify the overall journey so I can afford to bring everything on a cloud native journey? >>So the key to success here is having a holistic view at the application portfolio, segmenting the application portfolio in different application types and ordering the, the priorities of these application types and come up with suitable migration strategies for each one of them is >>Really necessary to move everything though. >>Not necessarily, no. Yeah. Or not necessarily. Yeah, absolutely not everything, but it would make sense. As we were saying before, it will definitely move, make sense to move legacy applications towards Kubernetes, to leverage all the software delivery. >>That's, that's a big project, right? >>It is. >>If you're gonna restructure the application around eight API and microservices, >>That it should be taken the way I've seen organizations succeeding the most in these road towards cloud native and Kubernetes in general is trying to address the whole portfolio. Maybe not move everything, but try to have this holistic view and not leave anything behind. Because if you try to do this isolated initiatives of bringing these or that application in, in isolation, you're Def you, you will miss part of the picture and you might be doomed to fail >>There. Yeah. It's been my experience that if you don't have a plan to migrate your applications to a cloud native operating model, then you're doomed to follow lift and shift examples to the public cloud. Yeah. Whether you're going to any other clouds, if you don't make that, that operational transition. Last question on operational transition, we've talked a lot about the replatforming process itself. What about day two at the I've landed to the cloud? What are some of the top considerations for, for compliance op observability? Just making sure my apps stay up in transitioning my workforce to that model. >>I think the over, you know, the overarching trend or theme that, that I see is clients now are, are asking for what I would call cloud native operations. Now in particular, there's a very solid theme around what we would call reliability engineering. So think about site reliability, engineering, SRE platform, reliability engineering, PR E. These are the dominant topics that clients now want to engage HCL on in particular, because the point you make is a valid one. I've modernized my application. Now I need to modernize the way that I operate the application in production. Otherwise I won't see those benefits. So that general theme of SRE is keeping us really busy. We're busy, re-skilling all of those operations teams around the world as well, because they need to know how to run these environments appropriately >>Too. And also being able to measure your progress while your transitioning is important. And that's one of the concerns that we are addressing as well in the community with a called polars to, to measure and to effectively measure the software delivery performance of, of the organization after the transition has been done. >>And this is a really good point by the way, cuz most, most people think it's a bit of a black art. How do I understand how I modernize my application? How do I understand how I've improved my kind of value chain around software creation and many people thought you needed to bring in very expensive consultants to advise you on these, on these black lives? No, >>Definitely >>Not. But in open source projects like conveyor from, from red hat, the availability of these tools available on an open source model means exactly any engineer, any developer can get these tools off the shelf and get that immediate benefit. >>Well, a flower head of creative labs at HCL at Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Thank you for joining the Q you now cube alum. You'll have a nice profile like the profile pictures on here. Awesome. Absolutely. Thank you. From Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture and Silicon angle. We are going to talk to some amazing folks, especially in today's segment. Paul, uh, there's a lot of companies here, like what what's been the, the consistent theme you've heard so far in the show. >>Well, you know, one thing that's different from this show, it seems to me than others I've attended is it's all around open source. We're not seeing a lot of companies bringing new proprietary technology to market. We are seeing them try to piece together, open source components with some kind of, perhaps there's a proprietary element to it, but to create some kind of a, a common management interface or control plane, and that's quite different from what I think we've seen in the past open source business models have been difficult to make work historically. Uh, and these companies are all taking their, their own approaches to it. But I think the, the degree to which this, the people here of coalesced around the importance of open source is building blocks to the future of, of applications is something I've not seen quite this way before. >>Well, with our current segment, guess we're gonna go deep into kind of these challenges and how enterprises are addressing, and their partners are addressing with those challenges we have with us, a flower head of cloud native HCL technologies. We'll get into how a system integrator is helping with this transition to Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Welcome to the show. You're now cube alum. Welcome. Thanks for having us. So we're gonna get right off, uh, off the bat. We're gonna talk about this. What are some of the trends you're seeing when it comes to application migration? You've done, I'm assuming at this point, thousands of them, what are some of the common trends? >>Well, it's a very good question. And clearly ACL we've helped thousands of clients move tens of thousands of applications to what we would call a cloud native, um, you know, environment. I think the overwhelming trend that we're seeing of course is clients realize it's a particularly complex, sophisticated journey. It requires a certain set of skills and capability clients increasingly us for anything that we can do to simplify and accelerate the journey, cuz what's really important to clients. If you're on a transformation journey to cloud is you wanna see some value very quickly. So I don't wanna wait three to five years to transform my applications portfolio. If you can do something in three to five days, that would be perfect. Thank you. >>Well, three to five days, that sounds more akin to when we were doing, uh, P to V or V to V migrations. I'm sure. Uh, HCL is at this point done in the millions of those types of migrations. What are some of the challenges or the nuance in doing a traditional migration from a traditional MI monolithic application to a cloud native? >>Well, it's another good question. Of course you notice that there's a general trend in the industry. Clients don't really want to lift and shift anymore. Lift and shift doesn't really bring any transformational value to my, to my company. So clients are looking for increasingly what we could recall, cloud native modernization. I want my applications to really take advantage of the cloud native environment. They need to be elastic and kind of more robust than maybe before now in particular, I think a lot of clients have realized that this state of Nirvana, which was we're gonna modernize everything to be a cloud native microservices based application. That is a tremendous journey, but no client really has the time patient or resources to fully refactor or rearchitect all of their applications. They're looking for more immediate kind of impact. So a key trend that we've seen of course is clients still want to refactor and modernize applications, but they're focusing those resources on those applications that will bring greater impact to their business. >>What they now see as a better replacement for lift and shift is probably what we would call replatforming, where they want all of the advantages of a cloud native environment, but they haven't necessarily got the time to modernize the code base. They wanna refactor to Kubernetes in re replatform to Kubernetes in particular, and they want us to take them there quickly. And that's why, for example, this week at cuon eight sellers announced a new set of tools called KMP based on conveyor, an open source project supported by red hat. And the key attraction of KMP is it lets me replatform my applications to Kubernetes immediately, right? Within two or three minutes, I can bring an application from a legacy platform directly onto Kubernetes and I can take it straight into production. That's the kind of acceleration that clients are looking for today. Isn't >>That just a form of lift and shift though? >>Well, no lift and shift typically of course, was moving virtual machines from one place to another. You know, the focus of Kubernetes of course is containerization of solutions. And it's not just about containerizing the solution and moving it. It's the DevOps tool chain around the solution as well. And of course, when I take that application into production in a Kubernetes based environment, I'm expecting to operate it in a different way as well. So that's where we see tremendous focus on what we would call cloud native operations clients expecting to use practices like site reliability engineering, to run these replatformed applications in a different way to, so >>It sounds like you're saying, I, I mean, replatforming has been a, a spectrum of options. I think Gartner has seven different types of re-platforming. Uh, are you seeing clients take more mature attitude now toward replatforming? Are they looking more carefully at the characteristics of their legacy applications and, and trying to try to make maybe more nuanced choices about what to replatform, what to just leave >>Alone? I think clients and I I'm sure Ramon's got some comments on this too, but clients have a lot more insight now in terms of what works for them. They they've realized that this, this promise of maybe a microservices based applications estate is a good one, but I can't do that for every application. If I am a large enterprise with several thousand applications in my portfolio, I can't refactor everything to become microservices based. So clients see replatforming possibly is a middle ground. I, I get a lot of the advantages from a cloud native environment. My applications are inherently more efficient, hopefully a lot more performance. >>Yeah. It's, it's a matter of software delivery performance. Yeah. So, uh, legacy workloads will definitely benefit from, uh, being brought into Kubernetes in the software delivery per performance department. So, uh, it's a matter of, uh, somehow Rebump your, your legacy applications and getting the benefits in, in life's application, life cycle management, a, uh, full tolerance and all that stuff. It's about leveraging the, what Kubernetes offers. >>When you say bringing legacy applications into Kubernetes. It's not that simple, right? I mean, what's involved in doing that. >>It, it, isn't, it's just a matter of taking a holistic view at your application portfolio and understanding the nuances of each application type within your organization and trying to come up with a suitable migration strategy for each one of these application types. And for that, what we're trying to do is provide a series of standardized, um, tools and methodologies, uh, from a community perspective, uh, we created this conveyor community. Uh, it, it was kick started by red hat and IBM, but we are trying to bring as many vendors and GSI, uh, as possible to try to set up these standards to make these, uh, road towards Kubernetes as easy as >>Possible. So we've done a little bit of, uh, app modernization in the CTO advisor hybrid infrastructure. And one of the things that we've found, there's plenty of Avan advantages. If I take a monolithic application that has, uh, that I've traditionally had to scale off to, uh, game performance, I can take selective parts of that, and now I can add auto-scaling to it. Exactly. However, as I look at a landscape Allen of thousands of applications, uh, I need to dedicate developer resources to get that done and my traditional environment, but my traditional environment is busy building new. My traditional or my developers are building new applications and new capabilities. I just don't have the resources to do that. How does HCL and red hat team together to kind of fast track that capability? >>Well, um, I'll comment on two things in particular, actually the, the first thing when it comes to skilling, I think the thing that's really surprised us at HCL is so many of our clients around the world have said, we are desperately short of skills. We cannot hire ourselves out of this problem. We need to get our existing developer community re-skilled around platforms like OpenShift, conveyor, and other projects too. So the first thing that's happened to us at eight still is we've been incredibly busy undertaken, probably what we would call developer workforce modernization, right, where we have to help the client reskill their entire technical and developer community to give them the skills, right. So we will help the clients develop a community, build the cloud native understanding, help them understand how to modernize tools for example, uh, or applications. But the second thing I mention is, and this comes back to a comment that Ramon made around around conveyor. >>It's been really encouraging to see the open source community start to invest in building the supporting frameworks around my kind of modernization journey, because if I'm a developer that's re-skilling and I'm attempting to maybe modernize an application, being able to dip into an open source project, I mean, a good example would be tackled part of the conveyor project. Exactly. You now have open source based tools that will help you analyze your applications. They will go into the source code and they will give the developer guidance in terms of what would be effective treatments to undertake. So perhaps a development team that are new to this modernization journey, they would benefit from a project like conveyor, for example, because I need to know where can I safely modernize my application now for experience organizations like HCL that comes naturally to us, but for people who are just starting this journey, if I can take an open source tool like tackle or the rest of the conveyor, for example, and use that to accelerate my journey, it takes a lot of pressure off, off my organization, but it also accelerates the journey too. >>And it's not just a matter of, of tooling. We we're also opensourcing, uh, the, the modernization methodology that we've been using in red hat consulting for years. So this whole conveyor communities, it's all about knowledge sharing on one hand and building a set of tools together, based on that knowledge that we are sharing to make it as easy as possible. >>And what role does red hat play in all that, I mean, is your you've carved out this position for yourself as the, as the true open source company. Is that, does that position you for a leadership role in helping companies make this >>Transition? I wouldn't say we should be leading the whole thing. Uh, we, we kick started it, but we want to get other vendors on board for this thing. One cool thing about the Camira community is that IBM is, uh, opensourcing a lot of their IP. So IBM research is on board. In this thing, we have some really crazy stuff related to a AI being applied to application analysis. We have some machine learning in place. We have very cool stuff that has been sitting on a, on a corner in IBM research for quite some years that now it's being open sourced and integrated in a, uh, unified user experience to streamline the, uh, modernization process as much as >>Possible. So let's talk about the elephant of the room. Uh, HCL was leading the conversation around cloud Foundry circa five plus years ago. And as customers are thinking about their journey to cloud native, how should they think about that cloud Foundry to cloud native or Kubernetes, uh, replatforming? >>Well within the cloud Foundry community, we've, we've been quite staunched supporters of Kubernetes for quite some time, right? It's, it's quite a, a stated intent of the cloud Foundry foundation to, to move across to Kubernetes platform right now that is a significant engineering journey for cloud Foundry to take. Now we're in this position where a lot of large users of cloud Foundry have a certain urgency to their journey. They, they want to consolidate on a single Kubernetes based, okay. Um, infrastructure. We, we see a lot of traction around OpenShift, for example, from red hat in terms of its market leadership. So a lot of clients are saying we would like to consolidate all of our platforms around a single kind of Kubernetes vendor, whether that's red hat or anyone else, you know, quite frankly. So what ATL is doing right now with the tools and the solutions we've announced this week is we're simply accelerating that journey for clients. If I've got a large installed base of applications running in my cloud Foundry environment, and I've also started to invest in standardize on Kubernetes based platforms like OpenShift, most clients would see it as quite a sensible choice to now try and consolidate those two environments into one. And that's simply what we're doing at HCL. We're making it very, very easy. In fact, we fully automated the journey so I can move all of my applications from cloud Foundry into for example, OpenShift pretty much immediately. And it just simplifies the entire journey. >>So the, as we start to wrap up the segment, I like to know customer stories. What, what, how customers either surprised or challenged when they get into, even with the help of an ACL in redhead, why are they seeing the most difficult parts of their migrations? >>Well, my, my simple comment would be maybe complexity, right? And the, the associated requirement for skilled people to undertake this modernization work, right? We spoke about this, of course, in terms of clients now are a lot more realistic. They understand that their ambition now needs to be somewhat tempered by their ability to sort of drive modernization quickly. So we see a lot of clients when they look at their very large global portfolios of applications, they're trying to invest their resources in the higher priority applications, the revenue generative applications in particular, but they have to bring everything else with them as well. Now, a common kind of separation point was we see a lot of clients who might say I'm gonna properly modernize and refactor, maybe five to 10% of my portfolio, but the other 90% also needs to come on the journey as well. And that's really where replatforming in particular kicks in. So, so the key trend again, is, is clients send to us, I've gotta take the entire journey. All right, I've got the resources and the skills to really focus on this much of my application base. Can someone simplify the overall journey so I can afford to bring everything on a cloud native journey? >>So the key to success here is having a holistic view at the application portfolio, segmenting the application portfolio in different application types and ordering the, the priorities of these application types and come up with suitable migration strategies for each one of them is >>Really necess necessary to move everything though. >>Not necessarily no, or, uh, not necessarily. Yeah, absolutely not everything. But, uh, it would make sense. Uh, as we were saying before, it will definitely move, make sense to move legacy applications towards Kubernetes, to leverage all the, uh, software delivery >>That's >>That's project, right? >>It is. If >>You're gonna restructure the application around APIs and microservices, >>That it should be taken the, the way I've seen, uh, organizations succeeding the most in this, uh, road towards cloud native and Kubernetes in general is trying to address the whole portfolio. Maybe not move everything, but try, try to have this holistic view and not leave anything behind, because if you try to do this isolated, uh, initiatives of bringing this or that applications in a, in isolation, you're Def you, you will miss part of the picture and you might be, uh, doomed to fail >>There. Yeah. It's been my experience that if you don't have a plan to migrate your applications to a cloud native operating model, then you're doomed to follow lift and shift examples to the public cloud. Yeah. Whether you're, uh, going to any other clouds, if you don't make that, that operational transition. Last question on operational transition, we've talked a lot about the replatforming process itself. What about day two, uh, at the I've landed to the cloud? What are some of the top considerations for, for compliance, uh, op op observability, just making sure my apps stay up and transitioning my workforce to that model. >>I, I, I think the over, you know, the overarching trend or theme that, that I see is clients now are, are asking for what I would call cloud native operations. Now in particular, there's a very solid theme around what we would call reliability engineering. So think about site reliability, engineering, SRE platform, reliability engineering, PR E. These are the dominant topics that clients and I want to engage, uh, HCL on in particular, because the point you make is a valid one. I've modernized my application. Now I need to modernize the way that I operate the application in production. Otherwise I won't see those benefits. So that general theme of SRE is keeping us really busy. We're busy, re-skilling all of those operations teams around the world as well, because they need to know how to run these environments appropriately too. >>And also being able to measure your progress while your transitioning is important. And that's one of the concerns that we are addressing as well in the premier community with a tool called polars to, to measure, to effectively measure the software delivery performance of, of the organization after the transition has been done. >>And this is a really good point by the way, cuz most, most people think it's a bit of a black art. How do I understand how I modernize my application? How do I understand how I've improved my kind of value chain around software creation and many people thought you needed to bring in very expensive consultants to advise you on these, on these black lives? No, >>Definitely >>Not. But in open source projects like conveyor from, from red hat, the availability of these tools available on an open source model means exactly any engineer, any developer can get these tools off the shelf and get that immediate benefit. >>Well, a flower head of creative labs at HCL at Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Thank you for joining the QPI. Now Cuba alum, uh, you'll have a nice profile like the profile picture on here. Awesome. >>Absolutely. Thank you. >>From Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Braking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Intel's big announcement this week underscores the threat that the United States faces from China. The US needs to lead in semiconductor design and manufacturing. And that lead is slipping because Intel has been fumbling the ball over the past several years, a mere two months into the job, new CEO Pat Gelsinger wasted no time in setting a new course for perhaps, the most strategically important American technology company. We believe that Gelsinger has only shown us part of his plan. This is the beginning of a long and highly complex journey. Despite Gelsinger's clear vision, his deep understanding of technology and execution ethos, in order to regain its number one position, Intel we believe we'll need to have help from partners, competitors and very importantly, the US government. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we'll peel the onion Intel's announcement of this week and explain why we're perhaps not as sanguine as was Wall Street on Intel's prospects. And we'll lay out what we think needs to take place for Intel to once again, become top gun and for us to gain more confidence. By the way this is the first time we're broadcasting live with Braking Analysis. We're broadcasting on the CUBE handles on Twitch, Periscope and YouTube and going forward we'll do this regularly as a live program and we'll bring in the community perspective into the conversation through chat. Now you may recall that in January, we kind of dismissed analysis that said Intel didn't have to make any major strategic changes to its business when they brought on Pat Gelsinger. Rather we said the exact opposite. Our view at time was that the root of Intel's problems could be traced to the fact that it wasn't no longer the volume leader. Because mobile volumes dwarf those of x86. As such we said that Intel couldn't go up the learning curve for next gen technologies as fast as its competitors and it needed to shed its dogma of being highly vertically integrated. We said Intel needed to more heavily leverage outsourced foundries. But more specifically, we suggested that in order for Intel to regain its volume lead, it needed to, we said at the time, spin out its manufacturing, create a joint venture sure with a volume leader, leveraging Intel's US manufacturing presence. This, we still believe with some slight refreshes to our thinking based on what Gelsinger has announced. And we'll talk about that today. Now specifically there were three main pieces and a lot of details to Intel's announcement. Gelsinger made it clear that Intel is not giving up its IDM or integrated device manufacturing ethos. He called this IDM 2.0, which comprises Intel's internal manufacturing, leveraging external Foundries and creating a new business unit called Intel Foundry Services. It's okay. Gelsinger said, "We are not giving up on integrated manufacturing." However, we think this is somewhat nuanced. Clearly Intel can't, won't and shouldn't give up on IDM. However, we believe Intel is entering a new era where it's giving designers more choice. This was not explicitly stated. However we feel like Intel's internal manufacturing arm will have increased pressure to serve its designers in a more competitive manner. We've already seen this with Intel finally embracing EUV or extreme ultraviolet lithography. Gelsinger basically said that Intel didn't lean into EUV early on and that it created more complexity in its 10 nanometer process, which dominoed into seven nanometer and as you know the rest of the story and Intel's delays. But since mid last year, it's embraced the technology. Now as a point of reference, Samsung started applying EUV for its seven nanometer technology in 2018. And it began shipping in early 2020. So as you can see, it takes years to get this technology into volume production. The point is that Intel realizes it needs to be more competitive. And we suspect, it will give more freedom to designers to leverage outsource manufacturing. But Gelsinger clearly signaled that IDM is not going away. But the really big news is that Intel is setting up a new division with a separate PNL that's going to report directly to Pat. Essentially it's hanging out a shingle and saying, we're open for business to make your chips. Intel is building two new Fabs in Arizona and investing $20 billion as part of this initiative. Now well Intel has tried this before earlier last decade. Gelsinger says that this time we're serious and we're going to do it right. We'll come back to that. This organizational move while not a spin out or a joint venture, it's part of the recipe that we saw as necessary for Intel to be more competitive. Let's talk about why Intel is doing this. Look at lots has changed in the world of semiconductors. When you think about it back when Pat was at Intel in the '90s, Intel was the volume leader. It crushed the competition with x86. And the competition at the time was coming from risk chips. And when Apple changed the game with iPod and iPhone and iPad, the volume equation flipped to mobile. And that led to big changes in the industry. Specifically, the world started to separate design from manufacturing. We now see firms going from design to tape out in 12 months versus taking three years. A good example is Tesla and his deal with ARM and Samsung. And what's happened is Intel has gone from number one in Foundry in terms of clock speed, wafer density, volume, lowest cost, highest margin to falling behind. TSMC, Samsung and alternative processor competitors like NVIDIA. Volume is still the maker of kings in this business. That hasn't changed and it confers advantage in terms of cost, speed and efficiency. But ARM wafer volumes, we estimate are 10x those of x86. That's a big change since Pat left Intel more than a decade ago. There's also a major chip shortage today. But you know this time, it feels a little different than the typical semiconductor boom and bust cycles. Semiconductor consumption is entering a new era and new use cases emerging from automobiles to factories, to every imaginable device piece of equipment, infrastructure, silicon is everywhere. But the biggest threat of all is China. China wants to be self-sufficient in semiconductors by 2025. It's putting approximately $60 billion into new chip Fabs, and there's more to come. China wants to be the new economic leader of the world and semiconductors are critical to that goal. Now there are those poopoo the China threat. This recent article from Scott Foster lays out some really good information. But the one thing that caught our attention is a statement that China's semiconductor industry is nowhere near being a major competitor in the global market. Let alone an existential threat to the international order and the American way of life. I think Scotty is stuck in the engine room and can't see the forest of the trees, wake up. Sure. You can say China is way behind. Let's take an example. NAND. Today China is at about 64 3D layers whereas Micron they're at 172. By 2022 China's going to be at 128. Micron, it's going to be well over 200. So what's the big deal? We say talk to us in 2025 because we think China will be at parody. That's just one example. Now the type of thinking that says don't worry about China and semi's reminds me of the epic lecture series that Clay Christiansen gave as a visiting professor at Oxford University on the history of, and the economics of the steel industry. Now if you haven't watched this series, you should. Basically Christiansen took the audience through the dynamics of steel production. And he asked the question, "Who told the steel manufacturers that gross margin was the number one measure of profitability? Was it God?" he joked. His point was, when new entrance came into the market in the '70s, they were bottom feeders going after the low margin, low quality, easiest to make rebar sector. And the incumbents nearly pulled back and their mix shifted to higher margin products and their gross margins went up and life was good. Until they lost the next layer. And then the next, and then the next, until it was game over. Now, one of the things that got lost in Pat's big announcement on the 23rd of March was that Intel guided the street below consensus on revenue and earnings. But the stock went up the next day. Now when asked about gross margin in the Q&A segment of the announcement, yes, gross margin is a if not the key metric in semi's in terms of measuring profitability. When asked Intel CFO George Davis explained that with the uptick in PCs last year there was a product shift to the lower margin PC sector and that put pressure on gross margins. It was a product mix thing. And revenue because PC chips are less expensive than server chips was affected as were margins. Now we shared this chart in our last Intel update showing, spending momentum over time for Dell's laptop business from ETR. And you can see in the inset, the unit growth and the market data from IDC, yes, Dell's laptop business is growing, everybody's laptop business is growing. Thank you COVID. But you see the numbers from IDC, Gartner, et cetera. Now, as we pointed out last time, PC volumes had peaked in 2011 and that's when the long arm of rights law began to eat into Intel's dominance. Today ARM wafer production as we said is far greater than Intel's and well, you know the story. Here's the irony, the very bucket that conferred volume adventures to Intel PCs, yes, it had a slight uptick last year, which was great news for Dell. But according to Intel it pulled down its margins. The point is Intel is loving the high end of the market because it's higher margin and more profitable. I wonder what Clay Christensen would say to that. Now there's more to this story. Intel's CFO blame the supply constraints on Intel's revenue and profit pressures yet AMD's revenue and profits are booming. So RTSMCs. Only Intel can't seem to thrive when there's this massive chip shortage. Now let's get back to Pat's announcement. Intel is for sure, going forward investing $20 billion in two new US-based fabrication facilities. This chart shows Intel's investments in US R&D, US CapEx and the job growth that's created as a result, as well as R&D and CapEx investments in Ireland and Israel. Now we added the bar on the right hand side from a Wall Street journal article that compares TSMC CapEx in the dark green to that of Intel and the light green. You can see TSMC surpass the CapEx investment of Intel in 2015, and then Intel took the lead back again. And in 2017 was, hey it on in 2018. But last year TSMC took the lead, again. And appears to be widening that lead quite substantially. Leading us to our conclusion that this will not be enough. These moves by Intel will not be enough. They need to do more. And a big part of this announcement was partnerships and packaging. Okay. So here's where it gets interesting. Intel, as you may know was late to the party with SOC system on a chip. And it's going to use its packaging prowess to try and leap frog the competition. SOC bundles things like GPU, NPU, DSUs, accelerators caches on a single chip. So better use the real estate if you will. Now Intel wants to build system on package which will dis-aggregate memory from compute. Now remember today, memory is very poorly utilized. What Intel is going to do is to create a package with literally thousands of nodes comprising small processors, big processors, alternative processors, ARM processors, custom Silicon all sharing a pool of memory. This is a huge innovation and we'll come back to this in a moment. Now as part of the announcement, Intel trotted out some big name customers, prospects and even competitors that it wants to turn into prospects and customers. Amazon, Google, Satya Nadella gave a quick talk from Microsoft to Cisco. All those guys are designing their own chips as does Ericsson and look even Qualcomm is on the list, a competitor. Intel wants to earn the right to make chips for these firms. Now many on the list like Microsoft and Google they'd be happy to do so because they want more competition. And Qualcomm, well look if Intel can do a good job and be a strong second sourced, why not? Well, one reason is they compete aggressively with Intel but we don't like Intel so much but it's very possible. But the two most important partners on this slide are one IBM and two, the US government. Now many people were going to gloss over IBM in this announcement, but we think it's one of the most important pieces of the puzzle. Yes. IBM and semiconductors. IBM actually has some of the best semiconductor technology in the world. It's got great architecture and is two to three years ahead of Intel with POWER10. Yes, POWER. IBM is the world's leader in terms of dis-aggregating compute from memory with the ability to scale to thousands of nodes, sound familiar? IBM leads in power density, efficiency and it can put more stuff closer together. And it's looking now at a 20x increase in AI inference performance. We think Pat has been thinking about this for a while and he said, how can I leave leap frog system on chip. And we think he thought and said, I'll use our outstanding process manufacturing and I'll tap IBM as a partner for R&D and architectural chips to build the next generation of systems that are more flexible and performant than anything that's out there. Now look, this is super high end stuff. And guess who needs really high end massive supercomputing capabilities? Well, the US military. Pat said straight up, "We've talked to the government and we're honored to be competing for the government/military chips boundary." I mean, look Intel in my view was going to have to fall down into face not win this business. And by making the commitment to Foundry Services we think they will get a huge contract from the government, as large, perhaps as $10 billion or more to build a secure government Foundry and serve the military for decades to come. Now Pat was specifically asked in the Q&A section is this Foundry strategy that you're embarking on viable without the help of the US government? Kind of implying that it was a handout or a bailout. And Pat of course said all the right things. He said, "This is the right thing for Intel. Independent of the government, we haven't received any commitment or subsidies or anything like that from the US government." Okay, cool. But they have had conversations and I have no doubt, and Pat confirmed this, that those conversations were very, very positive that Intel should head in this direction. Well, we know what's happening here. The US government wants Intel to win. It needs Intel to win and its participation greatly increases the probability of success. But unfortunately, we still don't think it's enough for Intel to regain its number one position. Let's look at that in a little bit more detail. The headwinds for Intel are many. Look it can't just flick a switch and catch up on manufacturing leadership. It's going to take four years. And lots can change in that time. It tells market momentum as well as we pointed out earlier is headed in the wrong direction from a financial perspective. Moreover, where is the volume going to come from? It's going to take years for Intel to catch up for ARMS if it never can. And it's going to have to fight to win that business from its current competitors. Now I have no doubt. It will fight hard under Pat's excellent leadership. But the Foundry business is different. Consider this, Intel's annual CapEx expenditures, if you divide that by their yearly revenue it comes out to about 20% of revenue. TSMC spends 50% of its revenue each year on CapEx. This is a different animal, very service oriented. So look, we're not pounding the table saying Intel's worst days are over. We don't think they are. Now, there are some positives, I'm showing those in the right-hand side. Pat Gelsinger was born for this job. He proved that the other day, even though we already knew it. I have never seen him more excited and more clearheaded. And we agreed that the chip demand dynamic is going to have legs in this decade and beyond with Digital, Edge, AI and new use cases that are going to power that demand. And Intel is too strategic to fail. And the US government has huge incentives to make sure that it succeeds. But it's still not enough in our opinion because like the steel manufacturers Intel's real advantage today is increasingly in the high end high margin business. And without volume, China is going to win this battle. So we continue to believe that a new joint venture is going to emerge. Here's our prediction. We see a triumvirate emerging in a new joint venture that is led by Intel. It brings x86, that volume associated with that. It brings cash, manufacturing prowess, R&D. It brings global resources, so much more than we show in this chart. IBM as we laid out brings architecture, it's R&D, it's longstanding relationships. It's deal flow, it can funnel its business to the joint venture as can of course, parts of Intel. We see IBM getting a nice licensed deal from Intel and or the JV. And it has to get paid for its contribution and we think it'll also get a sweet deal and the manufacturing fees from this Intel Foundry. But it's still not enough to beat China. Intel needs volume. And that's where Samsung comes in. It has the volume with ARM, has the experience and a complete offering across products. We also think that South Korea is a more geographically appealing spot in the globe than Taiwan with its proximity to China. Not to mention that TSMC, it doesn't need Intel. It's already number one. Intel can get a better deal from number two, Samsung. And together these three we think, in this unique structure could give it a chance to become number one by the end of the decade or early in the 2030s. We think what's happening is our take, is that Intel is going to fight hard to win that government business, put itself in a stronger negotiating position and then cut a deal with some supplier. We think Samsung makes more sense than anybody else. Now finally, we want to leave you with some comments and some thoughts from the community. First, I want to thank David Foyer. His decade plus of work and knowledge of this industry along with this collaboration made this work possible. His fingerprints are all over this research in case you didn't notice. And next I want to share comments from two of my colleagues. The first is Serbjeet Johal. He sent this to me last night. He said, "We are not in our grandfather's compute era anymore. Compute is getting spread into every aspect of our economy and lives. The use of processors is getting more and more specialized and will intensify with the rise in edge computing, AI inference and new workloads." Yes, I totally agree with Sarbjeet. And that's the dynamic which Pat is betting and betting big. But the bottom line is summed up by my friend and former IDC mentor, Dave Moschella. He says, "This is all about China. History suggests that there are very few second acts, you know other than Microsoft and Apple. History also will say that the antitrust pressures that enabled AMD to thrive are the ones, the very ones that starved Intel's cash. Microsoft made the shift it's PC software cash cows proved impervious to competition. The irony is the same government that attacked Intel's monopoly now wants to be Intel's protector because of China. Perhaps it's a cautionary tale to those who want to break up big tech." Wow. What more can I add to that? Okay. That's it for now. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes are all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search for Braking Analysis podcasts and you can always connect with me on Twitter @dvellante or email me at david.vellante, siliconangle.com As always I appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and in clubhouse please follow me so that you're notified when we start a room and start riffing on these topics. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Susic on digital brought to you by Susan. >>Welcome back. I'm stew minimum in coming to you from our Boston area studio. And this is the Cube's coverage of Silicon Digital 20. Happy to welcome to the program. Two of the keynote president presenters. First of all, we have Dr Mr Giacomo. He is the president of engineering and innovation and joining him, his presenter on the keynote stage, Daniel Nelson, who is the Vice president of Product solutions. Both of you with Souza. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Thank you for having us. >>All right, So? So, Dr T let let's start out. You know, innovation, open source. Give us a little bit of the message for our audience that Daniel are talking about on stage. You know how you know we've been watching for decades the growth in the proliferation of open source and communities. So give us the update there, >>Andi. It's not stopping. It's actually growing even more and more and more and more innovations coming from open source. The way we look at it is that our customers that they have their business problems have their business reality. Andi s So we we have to curate and prepare and filter all the open source innovation that they can benefit from because that takes time to understand that. Match your needs and fix your problems. So it's Susa. We've always done that since 27 per sales. So working in the open source projects innovating they are, but with customers in mind. And what is pretty clear in 2020 is that large enterprises, small startups. Everybody's doing software. Everybody's doing, I t. And they all have the same type of needs in a way. They need to simplify their landscape because they've been accumulating investments all the way. Our infrastructure Joseph well, different solutions, different platforms from different bundles. They need to simplify that and modernize and the need to accelerate their business, to stay relevant and competitive in their own industries. And that's what we're focusing on. >>Yeah, it's interesting. I completely agree. When you say simplify thing, you know, Daniel, I I go back in the communities about 20 years, and in those days, you know, we were talking about the operating clinic was helping to, you know, go past the proprietary UNIX platforms. Microsoft, the enemy. And you were talking about, you know, operating system server storage, the application that it was a relatively simple environment and inherited today's, you know, multi cloud ai in your based architecture, you know, applications going through this radical transformation growth, though, give us a little bit of insight as to, you know, the impact this is having on ecosystems. And of course, you know, Susie's now has a broad portfolio that at all >>it's a great question, and I totally get where you're coming from. Like if you look 20 years ago, the landscape is completely different that the technologies were using or you're completely different. The problems were trying to solve with technology are more and more sophisticated, you know, at the same time that you know, there's kind of nothing new under the sun, every company, every technology, you know, every you know, modality goes through. This expansion of capabilities and the collapse around simplification is the capabilities become more more complex, manageable. And so there's this continuous tension between capabilities, ease of use, consume ability. What we see with open source is that that that that's kind of dynamic that still exist, but it's more online of like. Developers want easy to use technologies, but they want the cutting edge. They want the latest things. They want those things within their packets. And then if you look at operations groups or or or people that are trying to consume that technology, they want that technology to be consumable simple. It works well with others. People tend to pick and choose and have one pane of glass field operate within that. And that's where we see this dynamic. And that's kind of what the Susan portfolio was built. It's like, How do we take, you know, the thousands and thousands of developers that are working on these really critical projects, whether it's Linux is like you mentioned or kubernetes or for cloud foundry? And how do we make that then more consumable to the thousands of companies that are trying to do it, who may even be new to open source or may not contribute directly but have all the benefits that are coming to it. And that's where Susan fits and worse. Susan, who's fits historically and where we see us continuing to fit long term, is taking older is Legos. Put it together for companies that want that and then allow them a lot of autonomy and choice and how these technologies are consumed. >>One of the themes that I heard you both talked about in the keynote it was simplifying modernized. Telerate really reminded me of the imperatives of the CIO. You know, there's always run the business they need to help grow the business. And if they have the opportunity, they want to transform the business. I think you know, you said run improve in scale scale. Absolutely. You know, a critical thing that we talk about these days when I think back to the Cloud Foundry summit. You know, on the keynote stage, it was in the old way. If I could do faster, better, cheaper. Ah, you could use two of them today. We know faster, faster, faster is what you want. So >>it was a >>little bit of insight as to who you know, you talked about, you know, cloud foundry and kubernetes application modernization. You know, what are the imperatives that you're hearing from customers? And how are we with all of these tools out there? Hoping, You know, I t not just be responsive to the business, but it actually be a driver for the transformation of the business. >>It's a great question. And so when I talk to customers and Dr T feel free to chime in, you talked. You know, as many or more customers than then Ideo. You know they do have these these what are historically competing imperatives. But what we see with the adoption of some of these technologies that that faster is cheaper, faster is safer, you know, creating more opportunities to grow and to innovate better is the business. It's not risk injection when we change something, it's actually risk mitigation when we get good and changing. And so it's kind of that that that modality of moving from, um, you know, a a simplify model or very kind of like a manufacturing model of software so much more organic, much more permissive, much more being able to learn with an ecosystem style. And so that's how we see companies start to change the way they're adopting the technology. What's interesting about them is that same level of adoption that seemed thought of adoption is also how open source is is developed open source is developed organically is developed with many eyes. Make shallow bots is developed by like, Let me try this and see what happens right and be able to do that in smaller and smaller recommends. Just like we look at red Green deployments or being able to do micro services or binary or any of those things. It's like let's not do one greatly or what we're used to in waterfall, cause that's actually really risk. Let's do many, many, many steps forward and be able to transform an iterative Lee and be able to go faster iterative Lee and make that just part of what the business is good at. And so you're exactly right, like those are the three imperatives of the CIO. What I see with customers is the more that they are aligning those three areas together and not making them separate. But we have to be better at being faster and being transformed. And those are the companies that are really using I t. As a competitive advantage within the rich. >>Yeah, because most of the time they're different starting points. They have a history. They have different business strategy and things they've done in the past, you need to be able to accommodate all of that and the faster micro service, that native developments for sure, for the new APS. But they're also coming from somewhere on diff. You don't take care of that. You get are you can just accelerates if you simplify your existing because otherwise you spend your time making sure that your existing it's still running. So you have to combine all of that together. And, yeah, do you mentioned about funding and communities? And that's really I love those topics because, I mean, everybody knows about humanities. Now. It's picking up in terms of adoption in terms of innovation, technology building ai ml framework on top of it now, what's very interesting as where is that cloud? Foundry was designed for fast software development until native from the beginning, that 12 factor app on several like 45 years ago. Right? What we see now is we can extract the value that cloud foundry brings to speed up and accelerate your stuff by the Romans hikers, and we can combine that very nicely on very smoothly, simple in a simple way, with all the benefits you get from kubernetes and not from one communities from your communities running in your public clouds because you have records. They are. You have services that you want to consume from one public clouds. We have a great silicon fireside chat with open shot from Microsoft Azure actually discussing those topics. You might have also communities clusters at the edge that you want to run in your factory or close to your data and workloads in the field. So those things and then you mentioned that as well, taking care of the I T ops, simplify, modernize and accelerate for the I T ops and also accelerates forward their local themselves. We're benefiting from a combination of open source technologies, and today there's not one open source technology that can do that. You need to bundle, combine them, get our best, make sure that they are. They are integrated, that they are certified to get out of their stable together, that the security aspects, all the technology around them are integrating the services as well. >>Well, I'm really glad you brought up, you know, some of those communities that are out there, you know, we've been saying for a couple of years on the Cube. You know, Kubernetes is getting baked in everywhere. You know, Cisco's got partnerships with all the cloud providers, and you're not fighting them over whether to use a solution that you have versus theirs. I worry a little bit about how do I manage all of those environments. You end up with kubernetes sprawl just like we have with every other technology out there. Help us understand what differentiates Tuesday's, you know, offerings in this space. And how do you fit in with you know, the rest of that very dynamic and defer. >>So let me start with the aspect of combining things together on and Danielle. Maybe you can take the management piece. So the way we are making sure that Sousa, that we don't also just miles into a so this time off tools we have a stack, and we're very happy if people use it. But the reality is that there are customers that they have. Some investments have different needs. They use different technologies from the past. But we want to try different technologies, so you have to make sure that's for communities. Like for any other part of the stack. The I T stock of the stack. Your pieces are model around that you can accommodate different. Different elements are typically at Susa. We support different types off hyper visors. Well, that's focused on one. But we can support KPMG's and I probably this way, all of the of the Nutanix, hyper visor, netapp, hyper visors and everything. Same thing with the OS. There's not only one, we know that people are running, and that's exactly the same. Which humanities? And there's no one, probably that I've seen in our customer base that will just need one vendor for communities because they have a hybrid needs and strategy, and they will benefit from the native communities they found on a ks e ks decay. I remember clouds, you name them Andi have vendors in Europe as well. Doing that so far for us, it's very important that we bring us Sutro. Custom. Males can be combined with what they have, what they want, even if it's from the circle competition. And so this is a cloud. Foundry is running on a case. You can find it on the marketplace of public clouds. It could run on any any any communities. He doesn't have to be sitting on it. But then you end up with a lot of sales, right? How do we deal with that? >>So it's a great question, and I'll actually even broaden that out because it's not like we're only running kubernetes. Yes, we've got lots of clusters. We've got lots of of containers. We've got lots of applications that are moving there, but it's not like all the V M's disappear. It's not like all the beige boxes, like in the data center, like suddenly don't exist. You know, we we we all bring all the sense and decisions in the past word with us wherever we go. And so for us, it's not just that lens of how do we manage the most modern, the most cutting edge? That's definitely a part of it. But how do you do that? Within the context of all the other things you have to do within your business? How do I manage virtual virtual machines? How do I manage bare metal? How do I manage all those? And so for us, it's about creating a presentation layer on top of that where you can look at your clusters. Look at your V EMS. Look at all your deployments and be able to understand what's actually happening with the fire. We don't take a prescriptive approach. We don't say you have to use one technology. You have to use that. What we want to do is to be adaptive to the customer's needs. And so you've got these things here, some of our offerings. You've got some legacy offerings to Let's show you bring those together. Let's show you how you modernize your viewpoints, how you simplify your operational framework and how you end up accelerating what you can do with the staff that you've got in place. >>Yeah, I'm just on the management piece. Is there any recommendation from your team? You know, last year at Microsoft ignite, there was the launch of Azure are on. And, you know, we're starting to see a lot of solutions come out. There are concerns. Is that any of us that live through the multi vendor management days, um, you know, don't have good memories from those. It is a different discussion if we're just talking about kind of managing multiple kubernetes. But how do we learn from the past and you know, What do you recommend for people in this, you know, multi cloud era. >>So my suggestion to customers is you always start with what are your needs? What is strategic problems you're trying to solve, and then choose a vendor that is going to help you solve those strategic problems? So is it going to take a product centric view Isn't gonna tell you use this technology and this technology and this technology, what is going to take the view of, like, this is the problem you're gonna solve? Let me be your advisor within that and choose people that you're going to trust within that, um, that being said, you wanna have relationships with customers that have been there for a while that have done this that have a breath of experience in solving enterprise problems because everything that we're talking about is mostly around the new things. But keep in mind that there are there are nuances about the enterprise. There are things that are that are intrinsically bound within the enterprise that it takes a vendor with a lot of enterprise experience to be able to meet customers where they are. I think you've seen that you know in some of the some of the real growth opportunities with them hyper scaler that they've kind of moved into being more enterprise view of things, kind of moving away from just an individual bill perspective, enterprise problems. You're seeing that more and more. I think vendors and customers need to choose companies that meet them where they are that enable their decisions. Don't prescribe there. >>Okay, go ahead. >>Yes, Sorry. Yeah. I also wanted to add that I would recommend people to look at open source based solutions because that will prevent them to be in a difficult situation, potentially in the three years from now. So there are open source solutions that can do that on book. A viable, sustainable, healthy, open source solutions that are not just one vendor but multi vendor as well, because that leaves those open options open for you in the future as well. So if you need to move for another vendor or if you need to implement with an additional technology, you've made a new investment or you go to a new public clouds. If you based Duke Tracy's on open source, you have a little chance but later left >>I think that's a great point. Dr. T and I would you know, glom onto that by saying customers need to bring a new perspective on how they adjudicate these solutions, like it's really important to look at the health of the open source community. Just because it's open source doesn't mean that there's a secret army of gnomes that, you know in the middle of the night going fixed box, like there needs to be a healthy community around that. And that is not just individual contributors. That is also what are the companies that are invested in this, where they dedicating resources like That's another level. So what level of sophistication that a lot of customers need to bring into their own vendor selection? >>Excellent. Uh, you know, speaking about communities in open source. Want to make sure you have time share a little bit about the AI platform discussed in your >>Yeah, it's very, very interesting. And something I'm super excited about it, Sousa. And it's kind of this this, uh, we're starting to see ai done in these really interesting problems to solve and like, I'll just give you one example is that we're working with um uh, Formula One team around using AI to help them actually manage in car mechanics and actually manage some of the things that they're doing to get super high performance out of their vehicles. And that is such an interesting problem to solve. And it's such a natural artificial intelligence problem that even when you're talking about cars instead of servers or you're talking about race tracks, you know instead of data centers, you still got a lot of the same problems. And so you need an easy to use AI stack. You need it to be high performance. You needed to be real time. You need to be able to decisions made really quickly, easy, the same kinds of problems. But we're starting to see them in all these really interesting wheels in areas, which is one of the coolest things that I've seen in my career. Especially is in terms of I T. Is that I t is really everywhere. It's not. Just grab your sweater and go to the data center because it's 43 degrees in there. You know, it's also getting on the racetrack. It's also go to the airfield. It's also go to the grocery store and look at some of the problems being being being addressed himself there. And that is super fascinating. One of the things that I'm super excited up in our industry in total. >>Alright, well, really good to discussion here, Daniel. Dr B. Thank you so much for sharing everything from your keynote and been a pleasure washing. >>Thank you. >>Alright, Back with lots more coverage from Susan Con Digital 20. I'm stew minimum. And as always, Thank you for watching. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of SUSECON Digital. Brought to you by SUSE. >> Welcome back. I'm Stuart Miniman coming to you from our Boston area studio and this is theCUBE coverage of SUSECON Digital 20. Happy to welcome to the program two of the keynote present presenters. First of all, we have Dr. Thomas Giacomo. He is the President of Engineering and innovation and joining him his co presenter from Makino state, Daniel Nelson, who is the Vice President of Product Solutions, both of you with SUSE. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> All right. So, Dr. T, Let's start out, innovation, open source, give us a little bit of the message for our audience that you and Daniel were talking about on stage. We've been watching for decades, the growth in the proliferation of open source communities, so give us the update there. >> Yeah. And then it's not stopping, it's actually growing even more and more and more and more innovations coming from open source. The way we look at it is that our customers there, they have their business problems, they have their business reality. And so we, we have to curate, and prepare and filter all the open source innovation that they can benefit from, because that takes time to understand how that can match your needs and fix problems. So at SUSE, we've always done that, since 27 plus years. So, working in the open source projects, innovating there but with customers in mind, and what is pretty clear in 2020 is that large enterprises, more startups, everybody's doing software, everybody's is doing IT and they all have the same type of needs in a way they need to simplify their landscape, because they've been accumulating investments all the way or infrastructure or software, different solutions, different platforms from different vendors. They need to simplify that. They need to modernize, and they need to accelerate their business stay relevant and competitive in their own industries. And that's what we are focusing on. >> Yeah, it's interesting, I completely agree when you say simplify thing, you know, Daniel, I go back in the opportunities about 20 years. And in those days, we were talking about the operating Linux was helping to go past the proprietary Unix platform, Microsoft, the big enemy. And you were talking about operating system, server storage, the application that on, it was a relatively simple environment in there compared to today's multi cloud, AI, container based architecture, applications going through this radical Information broke, though, gives a little bit of insight as to the impact this is having on ecosystems and, of course SUSE now has a broad portfolio that at all? >> It's a great question and I totally get where you're coming from, like, if you look 20 years ago, the landscape is completely different, the technologies we're using are completely different, the problems we're trying to solve with technology are more and more sophisticated. At the same time, though, there's kind of nothing new under the sun. Every company, every technology, every modality goes through this expansion of capabilities and the collapse around simplification as the capabilities become more and more complex and more manageable. So there's this continuous tension between capabilities, ease of use consume ability. What we see with open source is that, that kind of dynamic still exists, but it's more online of like developers want, easy to use technologies, but they want the cutting edge. They want the latest things. They want those things within their packages. And then if you look at operations groups or people that are trying to consume that technology, they want that technology to be consumable simple, works well with others be able to pick and choose and have one pane of glass to be able to operate within that. And that's where we see this dynamic. And that's kind of what the SUSE portfolio was built upon. It's like, how do we take the thousands and thousands of developers that are working on these really critical projects, whether it's Linux like you mentioned, or Kubernetes, or or Cloud Foundry? And how do we make that then more consumable to the thousands of companies that are trying to do it, who may even be new to open source or may not contribute directly, but when you have all the benefits that are coming to it, and that's where SUSE fits and where SUSE has fits historically, and where we see us continuing to fit long term is taken all those Legos, put into together for companies that want that, and then allow them a lot of autonomy and choice and how those technologies are consumed. >> Right, one of the themes that I heard you both talk about, in the keynote, it was simplifying, modernize, celebrate, really reminded me of the imperatives of the CIO. There's always run the business, they need to help grow the business, and if they have the opportunity, they want to transform the business. I think you said, run improve in scale. Scale absolutely a critical thing that we talk about these days, when I think back to the Cloud Foundry summit, in the keynote stage, it was the old way if I could do faster, better, cheaper, you could do them today. We know Faster, faster, faster is what you want. So give us a little bit of insight as to, you talked about Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes, application, modernization, what are the imperatives that you're hearing from customers and how are we, with all of these tools out there helping, IT, not just be responsive to the business but actually be a driver for that transformation of the business? >> It's a great question. And so when I talk to customers, and Dr. T, feel free to chime in, you talk to as many or more customers than I do. They do have these what are historically competing imperatives. But what we see with the adoption of some of these technologies is that faster is cheaper, faster is safer, creating more opportunities to grow and to innovate betters the business. It's not risk injection, when we change something, it's actually risk mitigation, when we get good at changing. And so it's kind of that modality of moving from, a simplified model or a very kind of like a manufacturing model of software to a much more organic, much more permissimuch more being able to learn within ecosystems model. And so that's how we see companies start to change the way they're adopting this technology. What's interesting about them is that same level of adoption. That same thought of adoption, It's also how open sources is developed. Open Source has developed organically, it's developed with many eyes make shallow bugs, it's developed by like, let me try this and see what happens, right? And be able to do that in smaller and smaller increments just like we look at Red Green deployments or being able to do micro services, or Canary or any of those things. It's like, let's not, do one greatly for what we're used to and waterfall is that's actually really risky. Let's do many, many, many steps forward and be able to transform it iteratively and be able to go faster iteratively and make that just part of what the business is good at. And so you're exactly right. Like those are the three imperatives of the CIO. What I see with customers is the more that they are aligning those three imperatives together and not making them separate, but we have to be better at being faster and being transformative. Those are the companies that are really using IT as a competitive advantage within their reach. >> Yeah, because most of the time they have different starting points. They have a history. They have different business strategy and things they've done in the past. So you need to be able to accommodate all of that and the faster microservice, native development posture for the new apps, but they're also coming from somewhere, and if you don't take care of that together, you can just accelerate if you simplify your existing because otherwise you spend your time making sure that your existing is running. So you have to combine all of that together, and the two, you mentioned Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes and I love those topics because, I mean, everybody knows about Kubernetes. Now it's picking up in terms of adoption, in terms of innovation technology, uilding AI ML framework on top of it. Now, what's very interesting as well is that, Cloud Foundry was designed for fast software development, and cloud native from the beginning that by the factor apps, and several like four or five years ago, right? What we see now is we can extract the value that Cloud Foundry brings to speed up and accelerate our software development cycles, and we can combine that very nicely and very smoothly simple in a simple way, with all the benefits you get from Kubernetes, and not from one Kubernetes. From your Kubernetes running in your public clouds because you have workloads there, you have services that you want to consume from one public clouds. We have a great SUSECON fireside chat with open shot from Microsoft. Asia, we're actually discussing those topics. Or you might have also Kubernetes clusters at the edge that you want to run in your factory or close to your data and workloads in the field. So those things and Daniel mentioned that as well taking care of the IT ops, like simplify, modernize and accelerate for the IT ops and also accelerate for the developers themselves, we benefiting from a combination of open source technologies. And today, there's not one open source technology that can do that. You need to bundle combine them together and best make sure that they are integrated, hat they are certified together, that they are stable together, that the security aspects, all the technology around them are deeply integrated into services as well. >> Well, I'm really glad you brought up some of those Kubernetes that are out there. We've been saying for a couple years on theCUBE, Kubernetes is getting baked in everywhere. SUSE's got partnership with all the cloud providers and you're not fighting them over whether to use a solution that you have versus theirs. I worry a little bit about, how do I manage all those environments? Do I end up with Kubernetes sprawl just like we have with every other technology out there? Help us understand what differentiates SUSE's offerings in this space? And how do you fit in with the rest of that very dynamic and diverse. >> So, let me start with the aspect of combining things together. And Daniel, maybe you can take the management piece. So, first of all, we are making sure at SUSE that we don't force our customers into a SUSE stack. Of course we have a SUSE stack, and we're very happy people use it. But the reality is that the customer knows that they have some investments, they have different needs, they use different technologies from the past, or they want to try different technologies. So you have to make sure that for Kubernetes like for any other part of the stack, the IT stack or the developer stack, your pieces are our modular that you can accommodate different different elements. So typically, at SUSE, we support different types of hypervisors We're not like focused on one but we can support KVM, Xen, Hyper-V, vSphere, all of the nutanix hypervisor, NetApp hypervisors and everything. Same thing with the OS, there's not only one Linux that people are running, and that's exactly the same with kubernetes. There's no one probably that I've seen in our customer base that will just need one vendor for Kubernetes because they have a hybrid cloud needs and strategy and they will benefit from the native Kubernetes they found on AKA, CKA, SDK, Alibaba clouds, you name them and we have cloud vendors in Europe as well doing that. So for us, it's very important that what we bring as SUSE to our customers can be combined with what they have, what they want, even if it's from the so called competition. And so the SUSE Cloud Foundry is running on. I guess, you can find it on the marketplace of public clouds. It could run on any Kubernetes. It doesn't have to be SUSE Kubernetes. But then you end up with a lot of cells, right? So how do we deal with that then? >> So it's a great question. And I'll actually even broaden that out because it's not like we're only running Kubernetes. Yes, we've got lots of clusters, we've got lots of containers, we've got lots of applications that are moving there. But it's not like all the VMs disappeared. It's not like all the beige boxes, like in the data center, like suddenly don't exist. We all bring all the sins and decisions of the past board with us wherever we go. So for us, it's not just that lens of how do we manage the most modern, the most cutting edge? That's definitely a part of it. But how do you do that within the context of all the other things you have to do within your business? How do I manage virtual machines? How do I manage bare metal? How do I manage all those. And so for us, it's about creating a presentation layer. On top of that, where you can look at your clusters, look at your VMs, look at all your deployments, and be able to understand what's actually happening within your environment. We don't take a prescriptive approach. We don't say you have to use one technology or have to use that technology. What we want to do is to be adaptive to the customer's needs. And say you've got these things. Here's some of our offerings. You've got some legacy offerings too. Let's show you how to bring those together. Let's show you how you modernize your viewpoints, how you simplify your operational framework and how you end up accelerating what you can do with the stuff that you've got in place. >> Yeah, I'm just on the management piece. Is there any recommendations from your team? Last year at Microsoft Ignite, there was a launch of Azure Arc, and, we're starting to see a lot of solutions come out there. Our concern is that any of us that live through the multi vendor management days, don't have good memories from those. It is a different discussion if we're just talking about kind of managing multiple Kubernetes. But, how do we learn from the past? And, what, what are you recommending for people in this multi cloud era? >> So my suggestion to customers is you always start with what are your needs, what is strategic problems you're trying to solve. And then choose a vendor that is going to help you solve those strategic problems. So isn't going to take a product centric view. Isn't going to tell you, use this technology and this technology and this technology, but it's going to take the view of like, this is the problem you're going to solve. Let me be your advisor within that and choose people that you're going to trust within that. That being said, you want to have relationships with customers that have been there for a while that have done this that have a breadth of experience in solving enterprise problems. Coz, I mean, everything that we're talking about, is mostly around the new things. But keep in mind that there are nuances about the enterprise, there are things that are that are intrinsically found within the enterprise, that it takes a vendor with a lot of experience to be able to meet customers where they are. I think you've seen that in some of the real growth opportunities within the hyper scalars. They've kind of moved into being more enterprise, view of things, kind of moving away from just an individual bill perspective to enterprise problems. You're seeing that more and more. I think vendors and customers need to choose companies that meet them where they are, that enable their decisions, not prescribe their decision. >> Okay. Oh-- >> Let me just add to that. >> Please go ahead. >> Yeah, sorry. Yeah. I also wanted to add that I would recommend people to look at open source based solutions because that will prevent them to be in a difficult situation potentially, in a few years from now. So there are open source solutions that can do that. And look at viable, sustainable, healthy open source solutions that are not just one vendor, but multi vendor as well, because that leaves doors options open for you in the future as well. So if you need to move for another vendor, or if you need to complement with an additional technology, or you've made a new investment or you go to a new public cloud, if you base your choices on open source, you have a better chance but from a data. >> I think that's a great point, Dr. T, and I would glom on to that by saying, customers need to bring a new perspective on how they adjudicate these solutions. Like it's really important to look at the health of the open source community. Just because it's open source doesn't mean that there's a secret army of gnomes that you know, in the middle of the night go and fix box, like there needs to be a healthy community around that. And that is not just individual contributors. That is also what are the companies that are invested in this? Where are they dedicating resources? Like that's another level of sophistication that a lot of customers need to bring into their own vendor selection process. >> Excellent. Speaking about communities and open ports, want to make sure you have time to tell us a little bit about the AI platform discussed. >> Yeah, it's it's very, very interesting and something I'm super excited about it SUSE. And it's kind of this, we're starting to see AI done and it's really interesting problems to solve. And like, I'll just give you one example, is that we're working with a Formula One team around using AI to help them actually manage in car mechanics and actually manage some of the things that they're doing to get super high performance out of their vehicles. And that is such an interesting problem to solve. And it's such a natural artificial intelligence problem that even then you're talking about cars instead of servers or you're talking about racing stack instead of data centers, you still got a lot of the same problems. And so you need an easy to use AI stack, you need it to be high performance, you need it to be real time, you need to be able to get decisions made really quickly. These are the same kinds of problems. But we're starting to see them in all these really interesting real world scenarios, which is one of the coolest things that I've seen in my career, especially as it turns of IT, is that IT is really everywhere. It's not just grab your sweater and go to the data centre, because it's 43 degrees in there, it's also get on the racetrack, it's also go to the airfield, it's also go to the grocery store and look at some of the problems being addressed and solved there. And that is super fascinating. One of the things that I'm super excited about in our industry in total. >> All right, well, really good discussion here. Daniel, Dr. T, thank you so much for sharing everything from your keynote and been a pleasure watching. >> Thank you. >> All right back with lots more covered from SUSECON Digital 20 I'm Stuart Miniman and as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of theCUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we're going deep into AWS. In a couple of weeks, theCUBE is going to be at the eighth AWS Reinvent, which will be our seventh year of having theCUBE at that show. You know, reinvent has really become the Super Bowl for enterprise tech innovation. And, ahead of the event, what I want to do is talk about the revolution of cloud, and the impact that it's having on the industry. And of course, I want to dig in to some of the data using the ETR data set. Before I do that, let me first say that the cloud 2.0, which is a term that we've been using, is becoming a reality. This is something that John Furrier and I talk about a lot here at theCUBE and at SiliconANGLE. The cloud is not about an incremental transition, it's really about transformation. We're talking here about the end to end modernization of the enterprise. The game is changing, and the engine of innovation is really being driven by new architectures, and these architectures have built around a few items. Data, machine intelligence, and of course cloud, for scale. We feel like what we are witnessing is the build out of this massively scalable distributed system. And this system is transforming businesses, and really enabling entire new companies and business models to emerge. The cloud is the under pitting of this digital revolution, and virtually every industry is going to be disrupted, no industry is safe. All right, let's get right to it. So, the key questions that I want to explore in this session, let's start with the spending patterns. We're going to look at the ETR survey data, and what services are attracting the most action inside cloud, and which vendors are winning? I then want to look at the market share data from a couple of angles. I'll look at ETR data, I'll talk about some other market data. Then we're going to drill into some of the services that are critical to innovation, and I specifically want to look at databases in particular analytic data stores. And then I want to look at the data and analytic services at AI, machine intelligence, and then I want to look at the data around containers and functions, like Lambda, which are very hot right now. Then, we're going to share some data on how the cloud is impacting the so called, "old guard." This is a pejorative term that Andy Jassy coined to refer to the legacy enterprise tech providers. Then I want to make some comments about the AWS ecosystem, it's getting a lot of chatter lately. And then I want to share some thoughts on what you can expect this year at Reinvent, and then I'll wrap. So the first data point that I want to show you here really draws on ETR's latest survey of 1,336 respondents. So what this chart does is it cuts the data, and it's showing just the cloud sector ranked by net score. Now remember, net score is a measure of spending momentum. Okay? So you can see where the action is. So at the top, you see Azure Functions and AWS Lambda popping right up. Look at their net scores, they've got a net score of 74% and 71% respectively. You can see Azure overall, this is the overall Azure business that's right up there as well, and of course AWS overall, so people responded AWS is right there. Very, very high, but it's dropped a little bit below Azure. We'll talk about that more in a moment. Then you can see VMware Cloud on AWS, it's got strong momentum, which is a real positive. You've got Google Cloud Functions, again, Functions very hot right now. Open Shift from Red Hat, GCP is up there, VMware Cloud. Then you've got Alibaba. Alibaba's only got 18 mentions, whereas the others have much higher shared in, so I'm not going to really put too much weight on that. And you can see the other folks as well on that chart. But also you can you can point out the functions. The Azure functions, and services like Lander, Lambda, are gaining really a lot of momentum in the marketplace, and I think point to a new mode of compute. What I want to do now is I want to isolate in this chart, the big 3 in cloud, and put them into context with a legacy player, you know, namely IBM. I'm not trying to pick on the legacy guys, but I think it's good for context. So as you can see here, Azure and AWS, they've been neck and neck battling it out in the last 10 surveys or so. And you can see even Google, somewhat behind, but it's still got pretty strong spending momentum. Now, these figures overall are trending down relative to the expectations earlier in the year. This is something that we've talked about, that spending is reverting back to pre '18 levels, not falling off a cliff, still solid in the grand scheme of things. So you can see, you know, net scores here are well above 50% for AWS and Azure. Now take a look at IBM. The ETR data shows them in the red zone, with a net score of 16%. That is not a surprise, that they're behind the Big 3. And I've said many many times, here's the thing, IBM and Oracle, I'm not showing Oracle here, they're at least in the cloud game. Think about it, HP had the public cloud, they had to tap out. Cisco, they don't have a public cloud. Dell EMC, even VMware, they don't have a public cloud. So at least IBM and Oracle have a cloud play, where they can take their SaaS business and run it, and get vertically integrated and some operating leverage. Okay, I'm going to switch gears a little bit and talk about market share. And we want to focus here on the battle between Azure and AWS. We all know Microsoft is growing faster, but AWS is much larger. And this is something that AWS CEO Andy Jassy, he takes a lot of time to explain to the analyst, and to the crowd at Reinvent. Let's take a look at what Jassy said last year at Reinvent on this topic, and then we'll come back. >> So if you look at the provider who most people think is the second place provider in this space, in their last financials they grew 76% year over year. And you can look at that and say, "Oh, 76% is more than 46%." But if you look at it in reality, that 76% represents about a billion dollars of growth year over year. If you look at the 46% growth of AWS on that much larger base, that represents $2.1 billion of growth year over year. So more than double that. So AWS not only has a significant market segment leadership position in share, but also on an absolute revenue basis is growing meaningfully faster than anybody else. >> Okay so, think about what Jassy said. He was using Q3 data and he said that AWS had a $27 billion run rate business. And if you look at those charts that I showed, or he showed, it looked like the yellow bar, which was Microsoft, even though they didn't say, you know, "the company that shall not be named." It was about 1/3 the size of AWS, so where would that put Microsoft? Somewhere around 9 billion last year, on kind of an apples to apples run rate basis, using those extrapolated market data that Jassy showed. By the way, ironically, this is about what AWS did last quarter which you can see here on this chart that I'm showing you. You might remember, I showed you this chart in a previous episode of Breaking Analysis. And what it shows is AWS' quarterly revenue on the blue bars, and the growth rate on the right hand axis, that's the red line. And you can see Jassy talked about 46% growth.. And you can see that in Q3 last year, and then look how its moderated. It's 35% in Q3 in 2019, the last quarter that they announced. So Jassy is right. AWS is growing slower than Microsoft last year, which was growing in the mid-70's. But Microsoft was 59% last quarter so that trend is continued. If, you know, that's if you believe Microsoft numbers, which are really not clean. It's hard to say sometimes with all the SaaS in there, and Office 365, LinkedIn, I don't know what else is in there but we try to parse that out. Regardless, Jassy's point that size matters is still correct. But, Microsoft is closing the gap. I talked to the Wikibon team recently, and they think that AWS is going to come in at $35 billion dollars in revenue this year. And they have Microsoft's IS business at around $15 billion. So that's 43% of AWS's business versus 33% at this time last year. So you can see that Microsoft is closing that gap. AWS is still adding $8 billion a year in growth, but Microsoft is definitely catching up. So what is the spending data show? Let's take a look here at the ETR data, and see what they say about market share. Now, remember, in the ETR parlance market share is a measure of how pervasive a vendor is within the data set. And as you can see here, it maps pretty well to the market estimates that I was just talking about. Although it actually appears that in these lines that AWS is widening that lead. But you can see in the net scores, by the way, this is net scores across all sectors, not just cloud computing, so it pulls in the other segments. But none the less, you can see Azure has a somewhat higher net score which indicates stronger spending intentions. So that pretty much fits what we see in the market for the most part. Now it's not all rosy for Microsoft. You know, they are super strong in the ETR data set across the board, but specifically in cloud. So that's important, I don't want to lose sight of that, but I want to share something that Gartner said recently, and it's a 2019 magic quadrant on cloud computing. Microsoft Azure's reliability issues continue to be a challenge for customers, largely as a result of Azure's growing pains. Since September of 2018, Azure has had multiple service-impacting incidents, including significant outages involving Azure active directory. The nature of many of these outages is such that customers had no controls in order to mitigate the downtime. So, caution is what Gartner said. So despite the great numbers and the fact that Azure is gaining, it's having growing pains. For years I've talked about the economies of scale for AWS due to its automation. I talked about the companies marginal economics at volume, and you can see it in the firm's operating margins. The question to ask, is Microsoft running into dis-economies at scale, due to it's large install base, and does it have technical debt? Because it's jamming large software estate into Azure, and having to preserve the past while trying to innovate for the future. I don't know, and it's hard to tell because Microsoft is so big and so profitable, but it's something that CIO's definitely should keep an eye on. Now, I want to look at some key sectors here and evaluate how AWS is doing in some of the areas where we see really innovation. And I want to start in the all important data base area. Now I'm going to focus here on analytic databases, and data warehouses, and I think there's some interesting trends going on here. So this is a cut of the ETR data warehouse segment. Now I've talked about Snowflake in the previous episodes of Breaking Analysis, and you can see why. Snowflake has a net score of 71%. They're one of the highest and most interesting newer companies in this space and in the ETR data set. You can see AWS doing very well, and I want to make some comments on both Snowflake and AWS Redshift. But before I do that, look at Oracle and Teradata on this chart. What you see here is the classic innovator's dilemma. It's at play where AWS and Snowflake, you can see them, they're solidly in the green, and you got the two legacy players affirmly in the red. So I include them as reference points. But I want to come back to Redshift and Snowflake, because I feel like there's something new going on in cloud. Where cloud 1.0 was all about IS and compute and storage and throw in some data base, there's this new trend emerging that's really driving new workloads. And this data that now sits in the cloud, it's maybe stored in S3, and customers are using data stores like Redshift and Snowflake to get more insights out of that data. They're bringing tools like data bricks into the equation, and really driving a whole new set of work loads that are not just about provisioning infrastructure, but really extracting insights much more quickly from the data and applying it to your business. And for AWS, it's driving tons of compute sales and customers are getting more value out of their data. Now, here's the interesting thing. Redshift and Snowflake are both best in class modern data warehouses, they seem to be coexisting, they're both thriving, you know, why is that? They're both MPP columnar stores, so they've got many similar attributes, but I think what it comes down to really is what I call horses for courses. I don't have time to dig into it today, but when you peel back the onion, what you find is different approaches to things like architecture, security, scaling, different philosophies, pricing, different feature sets. So it really comes down to the best strategic fit, and for now it looks like to me, there's room for both platforms. They're both doing very well from a spending momentum perspective. We'll see how that plays out over time. Let's now take a look at the analytic sector. Now here, we're talking about things like Amazon's quarry services, elastic map reduce, search kinesis, quick site glue, streaming, those kinds of tooling. You can see in this chart that AWS is very strong and it leads Microsoft by a small margin in the ETR data set. Now for comparison, and again, I'm not trying to pick on the legacy players, but I think it's important to provide context, and when it comes to spending momentum, the data doesn't lie. You can see here, IBM they've had a sizeable and very impressive set of capabilities in the analytic space, but you can see where the buyers are placing their bets. Now, what I'm showing you now in this next chart is a similar view, but this time I'm showing ETR market share for both AI and the machine learning segment. So for context I've added IBM Watson. Remember, market share for ETR is a measure of pervasiveness, not only to AWS and Microsoft, though they're battling it out for the top spot, but they got stronger spending momentum as you can see by the net scores. Look at Watson, I mean, it's respectable in the ETR data, but it just doesn't have the scale of the top two players. Okay, finally, I want to look at the container space. It's hot and I want to focus on Lambda from AWS. So what we're showing here is the net scores for Lambda, and Amazon's elastic container service. And you can see Lambda, very very strong. ECS is tapering a little bit, it's showing less momentum overtime, but still well over 50% net score. But look at Pivotal Cloud Foundry, they've showed a steady down term over time. This underscores the work that VMware and Pat Gelsinger have to do with one of their newest acquisitions. As in aside, this is an opportunity for VMware, which in my opinion, I've said they really need to get their developer act together, really to drive new innovation. And by the way, Pivotal just had some layoffs, but my understanding that it was not in engineering but rather folks that VMware saw as redundant, rolls that they already had in place. The bottom line is, Pivotal has been steadily losing momentum in the ETR surveys. But look, a 27 net score is not a disaster by any means. I said on my last Breaking Analysis, that if I were Michael Dell, I'd dedicate a thousand engineers to open sources, using Pivotal to really appeal to developers, and make his hardware run better on the open source tooling and apps that these thousand build. And make his infrastructure programmable. This is how the edge is going to be won. It's not going to be by throwing boxes over the top of the fence, but really a bottoms up by devs. I digress. The last data point that I want to share here is really designed to address the question, how is the cloud impacting what Jassy calls the "old guard?" So this view shows market share, which again is defined by ETR, remember they do the math to measure the pervasiveness of a vendor in their data set. And they call that market share. And I've cut that data by just the cloud spenders. So those buyers spending heavily, and I've isolated on AWS, Azure, and Google Cloud. And how their spending on traditional vendors has changed overtime. And I'm picking out Cisco, HPE, Dell EMC, and Oracle. And the story you can see is clear. They came out of the downturn in 2010, and the big guys who were holding their breath, and they came up for air and they saw lots of pet up demands, so they did pretty well. But the cloud has continued to slowly eat away at their share, and their spending momentum as seen by the net scores in this table, has been affected. But look at Cisco. They actually have quite a strong net score, its 37%. So to me, by the way, this makes sense. And I think Cisco is in a good position to connect clouds and secure data moving across clouds. But the cloud, it's long steady march continues. And we are entering a new era that I think is only going to see greater share gains for the cloud in my view. By the way, I don't want to just, back to my rant about the edge in programmable infrastructure, and how developers are going to win the edge. Cisco with Devnet is actually in a pretty good position here, and done a good job. And I think they're one of the few, if not the only legacy player that is going to figure this out. Now before I close, I want to make a few comments on the ecosystem, and give a glimpse as to what to expect at Reinvent in 2019. All right first the ecosystem. There's a lot of sort of chatter, and griping, and concerns around AWS cannibalizing the ecosystem partners. And I think frankly, that concern has merit. You know when AWS has this insane customer focus, you can pretty much take that to the bank. If a customer wants something and expresses that to AWS, and they see a space to fill where it can leverage that flywheel that they always talk about at ad services, AWS is not going to sub optimize it's portfolio to protect it's partner. It's going to go hard after it. So as a partner of AWS, it's up to you to keep innovating and moving fast. And that's hard, because AWS is probably moving faster than you are. But you know, you can still specialize as a partner, and thrive as a best debride player. I mean, look at the Snowflake example. There's plenty of opportunities out there in security, backup, governess, machine intelligence, work flow, edge, and of course, there's the infamous multi cloud opportunity. And I saw infamous because AWS doesn't use that term, you're not going to see it on the floor of Reinvent this year because it's frankly not allowed. AWS is very controlling over the messaging that it puts out to it's customers, and that includes the rules of the ecosystem if you want to go to their show. But you'll hear plenty of side conversations about multi cloud, and we're certainly going to be talking about it on theCUBE. Is multi cloud a symptom of multi vendor? You know what I think on this topic. I think it's more than that than it is a strategy. But CIO's are now being asked to clean up the multi cloud mess, so it does have merit. But it creates complexity, and that means opportunity for partners. So multi cloud is white space for the ecosystem, as is hybrid, and on prim connectivity, so partners are hedging their bet, they're supporting multiple clouds, and they're partnering with Azure and Google, and that makes sense to do so. But here's the thing. Cloud 2.0 is getting more complex. AI, new workloads, edge, new use cases, machine learning, more API's, more services, more complicated pricing. These are confusing matters for customers, and partners can help simplify this. As well, thinking about competition with Microsoft, Microsoft is kind of an easy choice. If you're already a Microsoft software customer, (murmurs) So partners need AWS, and AWS need partners to help them deliver solutions to go to market, and keep it simple. John Furrier says this a lot, that winning in the enterprise requires salesmanship, and AWS partners, they're a powerful channel, so AWS has to lean on this channel to really create solutions for customers and simplify. Okay, let's talk about what to expect at Reinvent 2019, and I want to start with storage. Jeff Bar put out a blog post announcing a series of new storage offers around block store, new gateways, S3 replication, a new Windows file server capabilities, and stronger emphasis on file storage. Now, most of the world's data is stored on file, and AWS is expanding it's portfolio. It started with S3 object, back in 2006, and then EBS, block store, and now a big emphasis on file services. So I expect to hear a lot about that, and as well, we're going to hear about outpost. What progress has Amazon made with outpost? What's the status? What's the vision for outpost? How does it fit in at the edge? You know as I just said in my rant earlier, the edge is all about developers, and I like AWS' edge approach. I think AWS has the right perspective. It's very devs centric. It's bottoms up from devs, not over the top like many of the box sellers. Now at Reinvent, you're probably going to hear more about unplugging Oracle databases, certainly security is going to be a big focus, as will AI and machine learning. I also expect a lot on transformation of industries. As Microsoft continues to grow in IS, expect AWS to somehow try to change the game again. And I'm not sure AWS can win the battle head on with CIO's. Rather, I think AWS is really going to focus on this duel disruption agenda, both within the horizontal technology stack but also within industries. In other words, expect AWS to increasingly focus on enabling industry transformation in different segments, like media, health care, financial services, manufacturing, government, automobiles, telco, virtually every vertical. This dual disruption agenda, both in the tech stack and within industries, its in AWS's DNA because it's in Amazon's DNA. It's driven by Jeff Bezos at the top. Now in closing, I want to stress again, the cloud 2.0 is here, and it's getting more complex. The so called "old guard" is hanging on to it's install basis, but in many ways, it's working hard to get simpler. Now are these two domains going to collide together and create an equilibrium in the cloud native wannabes and the cloud native guys? Probably not functionally, but there are a lot of opportunities for the big whales to capitalize on this industry consolidation, and compete by simplifying their experience enough to keep customers hanging around. You know, don't forget, the enterprise business for years has relied on high touch specials, and unique requirements, and that's the wheelhouse for the legacy players, it's not AWS'. And maybe this approach is going to continue to pick away at those opportunities with repeatable and automatible solutions. So this should be really interesting to watch. Stop by theCUBE, come see us at Reinvent, we got two sets there. This is Dave Vellante, signing out from this episode of CUBE insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNative Con brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Kubecon CloudNative Con here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host is Justin Warren. And one of the things we always love to do is really dig in to some of the customer use cases. And joining us to do that, Andrey Rybka, who's the head of Compute Architecture and the CTO Office at Bloomberg. Andrey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, so just to set the stage, last year we had your colleague Steven Bauer, came, talked about your company's been using Kubernetes for a number of years. You're a member of the CNCF as one of those end users there and you're even an award winner. So, congratulations on all the process. You've been doing if for years, so all the problems, I'm sure are already solved, so now we just have a big party, right? >> Yes, well I'm mean certainly we are at the stage where things are quite mature and there's a lot of workloads that are running Kubernetes. We run Kubernetes on-premises. Steven has an excellent data sense platform that does machine learning with GPUs and bare metal. We also have a really excellent team that runs basically Platform as a Service, generic Platform as a Service, not GPUs but effectively runs any kind of stateless app or service and that's been extremely successful and, you know there's a lot interest in that. And we also run Kubernetes in Public Cloud. So, a lot of workloads for like Bloomberg.com, actually are backed now by Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so we want to spend a bunch of time talking about the applications, the data, the services, that you've built some PaaS's there. Yes, so step us back for a second if you would, and give us the, What led to Kubernetes? And as you said, you've got your on-premises environment, you've got Public Cloud, where was that when you started and what's the role of Kubernetes and that today? >> Sure, we started back in 2015, evaluating all kinds of sort of container orchestration platforms. It's very clear that developers love containers for its portability and just the ability to have the same environments that runs kind of on-premises or on your laptop and runs on the actual deployment environment, the same thing, right? So, we looked at Mesos, Marathon, Cloud Foundry, even OpenShift before it was Kubernetes. And we, in no specific order continuously evaluate all different options and once we make a decision, we recommend to the engineering team and work in partnership with engineers. So all of those awards and everything, actually I want to say, that this is really a kudos to our engineering team. We just a small part of the puzzle. Now as far as like how we made the Kubernetes selection, it was a bit risky. We started with a pre-alpha version and you know I read the Borg paper, how Google actually did Borg. And when I sort of realized, well they're trying to do the same thing with Kubernetes. It was very clear, this is kind of, you know we're going to build on mature experience, right. So, some what it was risky but also a safe bet because you know there was some good computer science and engineering behind the product. So we started alpha version, they're consumer web groups actually were one of the first deployments of there kind of Kubernetes and they present them at the first Kubecon. It was an excellent talk on how we did Kubernetes and you know we came a long way since then. We've got sort of now, probably about 80 to 100 clusters running and you know, they run full high availability, DR -1. I would say it is one of the most reliable environments that we have, you know. We have frequently, you know infrastructure outages, hypervisors, you know, obviously hardware fails, which is normal, and we rarely see any issues and actually you know no like any major issues whatsoever. So, the things we expected out of Kubernetes, the things like reliability, elastic infrastructure, auto-scaling, the multi-tenancy it all worked out. Higher density of sort of packing the nodes, you know that's another great sort of value add that we expected but now we finally realizing that. >> So, one question I've had from a lot of customers, particularly traditional enterprises who are used to doing things and have a lot of virtual machine infrastructure. They're looking at Kubernetes but they're finding it somewhat opaque, a little bit scary. Talk us through, How did you convince the business that this was the choice that we should make and that we need to change the way that we're developing applications and deploying applications and we want to do this with Kubernetes? How did you convince them that this was going to be okay in the end? >> Yes, yes, that's a really good question. A lot of people were scared and you know they were, is this going to break things or you know is this just a shiny new thing. And there was a lot of education that had to occur. We've shown a lot of POCs now. The way we exposed Kubernetes was not just like raw Kubernetes. We actually wanted to keep it safe, so we sort of stayed away from some, like more alpha type of workloads and moved towards kind of like the more stable things. And so, we exposed it Platform as a Service. So, the developers did not actually get to necessarily like kubectl you know, apply a config and just deploy the app. We actually had a really good sort of offering where we had kind of, almost like Git-flow kind of environment where you have, you know your source control, then you have CICD pipeline and then once it goes through all those check and balances, you deploy your containers. So from that perspective, we actually hid quite a bit of things that made things a bit dangerous or potentially a little bit more complicated. And that's proven to be the right strategy because right now as far as the reliability I would say this is probably one of the most reliable environments that we have. And this is by design, you know. We basically tell the developers, by default you're supposed to run at least two replicas at least two Data Centers by default or two, you know, regions or two availability zones, and you can't change that. There's some people who are asking me like can I just deploy just in one Data Center, I'm like, I'm sorry, no. Like by default its like that. And auto-scaling on so if one Data Center goes and you need DR -1, so if you started with two minimum replicas then it auto-scales to four or whatever that will be set. So, you know, I think we've basically put a prototype of a proof of concept relatively fast. And We've got with the initial Platform as a Service, you know from zero to actual delivery in about three months. A lot of building blocks were there and we just put kind of the pieces of the puzzle together. >> All right, that does echo a lot of the discussion that was at had in the keynote today, even was about looking at making Kubernetes easier to consume, essentially by having all of these sensible defaults like you mentioned. You will have two replicas. It will run in these two different zones. And kind of removing some of that responsibility for those decisions from the developers. >> Andrey: Yes. >> How does that line up with the idea of DevOps which seems to be partly about making the developers a bit more responsible for their service and how it runs in production. It sounds like you've actually taken a lot of that effort away from them by, we've done all this work for you so you don't have to think about that anymore. >> I mean a little bit of background, we have about 5,500 engineers. So, expecting everybody to learn DevOps and Kubernetes is not realistic, right? And most developers really want to write applications and services that add business value, right? Nobody wants to really manage networking at the lower level, you know there's a lot of still complexity in this environment, right? So, you know, as far as DevOps, we've built shared kind of teams that have basically like, think of like centralized SRE teams that build the core platform components. We have a world class kind of software infrastructure group which builds those type of components. On top of the sort of, the technology infrastructure team that caters to the hardware and the virtualization infrastructure built on OpenStack. So you know, there is very much kind of a lot of common services/shared services teams that build that as a platform to developers and that is how we can scale. Because, you know, it's very hard to do that if every team is just sort of duplicating each one of those things. >> So Andrey, let's talk a little bit about your application portfolio. >> Andrey: Sure. >> Bloomberg must have thousands of applications out there. >> Andrey: Yes, yes. >> From what you were describing, is this only for kind of net new applications. If I want to use it I have to build something new, replacing something else or, or can you walk us through kind of what percentage is on this platform today and how is that migration or transition? >> And some is not net new, we actually did port quite a bit of the sort of the classic Bloomberg services that developers expect to the platform. And it's seamless to the developers. So, we've been doing quite a bit of sort of Linux migration meaning from like things like Solaris, AIX, and this platform was built purposefully to help developers to migrate their services. Now, they're not sort of lift and shift type of migrations. You can't just expect the, you know classic C++ shared memory app suddenly like jump and start being in containers, right? So there is some architectural changes, differences that had to be done. The type of applications that we see, you know, they're just sort of microservices oriented. Bloomberg has been around since 1981 and they've been doing service-oriented architecture since like early 90s. So, you know, things were already kind of in services kind of framework and mentality. And before, you know we had service matches, Bloomberg had its own kind of paradigm of service matches. So, all we do is kind of retro-fit the same concepts with new frameworks. And what we did is we brought in sort of like a new mentality of open source first. So, most new systems that we built, we look for kind of what about if you know, we look for open source components that can fit in this particular problem set. So there applications that we have right now, we have quite a bit of data services, data transformation pipelines, machine learning, you know, there's quite a bit of the machine learning as far as like the actual learning part of training, and then there is the inference part that runs quite a bit. We have quite a few of accounting services, like, I mentioned Bloomberg.com, and many sort of things that you would normally think of like accounting delivery services that run on Kubernetes. And I mean, at this point, we certainly try to be a little bit conscious about stateful services, so we don't run as much of databases and things like that. Eventually, we will get there once we prove the reliability and resiliency around the stateful set in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, do you have an estimate internal or goals as to what percentage your applications are on this platform now and a roadmap going forward? >> I mean, it's hard to say but going forward, I see majority of all services migrating to Kubernetes because for us, Kubernetes is become an essentially standardized compute fabric. You know, one thing that we've been missing, you know, a lot of open source projects deliver, you know virtualized infrastructure. But, you know, that's not quite enough, right. You need other sort of concepts to be there and Kubernetes did deliver that for us. And more importantly, it also delivered us kind of a, almost like a multi-cloud strategy, you know, kind of accidentally because, you know none of the cloud providers have any standard APIs of any source, right? Like, so even if use Terraform, that's not necessarily multi-cloud, it's just like you got to write HCO for each cloud provider. In Kubernetes, more or less, that becomes kind of a really solved problem. >> So which, what flavor of Kubernetes are you using? Do you leverage any of the services from the Public Cloud on Kubernetes? >> Yeah, I mean, excellent question. So, you know we want to leverage managed offerings as much as possible because things like patch and the security of you know, CVE's, and things like that, I want somebody to take care of that for me and harden things, and out of the box. So, the key to our multi-cloud strategy is use managed offering but based on open source software. So if you want to deploy services, deploy them on Kubernetes as much as possible. If you want to use databases, use manage database but based on the open source software, like Postgres, or MySQL. And that makes it affordable, right, to an extent, I mean, there's going to be some slight differences, but I do believe that managed is better than if I'm going to go and bootstrap VM's and manage my own control plane and the workers and things like that. >> Yeah, and it is a lot of additional work that I think organizations genuinely did try to roll their own and do everything themselves. There's a lot more understanding since the advent of cloud essentially that actually making someone else do this for what is essentially the undifferentiated heavy lifting. If you can get someone else to do that for you, >> Andrey: Absolutely >> it's a much better experience. Which is actually what you've built with the Kubernetes services for your developers. You are becoming that managed service for your app developers. I think a few enterprise organizations have tried to do that a little bit with centralized IT. They haven't quite got that service mentality there where I'm the product owner and I need to create something which my developers find is valuable to use so that they want to use it. >> This is exactly spot on. When I joined Bloomberg six years ago, one of the things we wanted to do is effectively offer a Public Cloud like services on-premises and now we're there. We actually have a lot of managed offerings whether you want Kafka as a service, queuing as a service, or you know, cache as a service, or even Kubernetes but not necessarily we want to expose Kubernetes as a service, we want to expose Platform as a Service. So, you hit the nail on the head because effectively developers want kind of the same things that they see in the Public Cloud. I want you know, function as a service, I want lambda something like this. Well, that's a type of Platform as a Service. So, you're spot on. >> Yeah, Andrey, last question I have for you. You know, you talked about the maturity of the managed offerings there, something we've seen a lot this year is the companies that, How am I going to manage across, you know, various environments? There we saw, you know, Microsoft with Azure, or VMware with Honzu, what do you think of that? Is that something that interests you or anything else in the ecosystem that you still think needs to mature to help your business? >> Sure, sure, I mean, I think that the use cases they're trying to address are definitely near and dear to my heart. Because we are trying to be multi-cloud. And in order to be truly mature multi-cloud sort of company, we need to have sort of mature kind of multi-cloud control plane. That has kind of the deployment address, ACD pipeline address than it need to address security, not just day one but day two, a load and monitoring and all of you know, if I were just to have three different portals to look at, it is very complicated, you're going to miss things. I want one pane of glass, right. So, what this company is addressing is extremely important and I see a lot of value in it. Now from my point of view, in general, what we prefer if it was an open source project that we could contribute and we could collaborate on, we still want to pay money for the support and what not, we don't want to just be free riders, right? But if it's an open source product and we can be part of it, it's not just read-only open source, that is definitely something that I would be very much interested in participating. And majority of the developers that we have are very happy to participate in open source. I think you seen some of our contributors here. We have some people contributing to Kubeflow. There's many other projects, we have quite a bit of cube projects like the case engineering with powerfulseal. If somebody wants to check it out, we've got some really interesting things. >> Andrey, really appreciate you sharing what you and your engineering teams are doing. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for all the contributions back to the community. >> Yep. >> For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman back with more of our three day wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNative Con. Thank you for watching theCube. (dramatic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by RedHat, a CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome back to Kubecon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer, and happy to welcome back to the program, was on the keynote stage earlier at the conference, Derek Collison is the founder and CEO of Synadia. >> Yes, welcome. >> Stu: Showing the logo, thanks so much for joining us, Derek. >> Oh, thank you, I really appreciate it, it's been a while. >> Yeah, it has, so you know, we've known you for many years, had you on the program, you look at us, you've got one of those VIP logos 'cause you've been on the show a few times, and you've seen a couple of these waves. Latest thing, of course, you're talking a lot about NATS, but of course Cloud Foundry you built that, so you've seen a lot of these waves, but I want to start with something you said that I thought was really thought-provoking and interesting. A lot of people, we talk about the Cloud economy, talk about the data economy... You talk about the connective economy, so, explain to our audience a little bit what that means. >> So, the general gist of it is, hey, where's the innovation and where's the value coming out of information technology, IT, infrastructure and things like that, and for a long time, we were swept up in the Cloud economy, which was how you move from CapEx into OpEx, and things like that, and then of course it was all about data. And it still is about data, but if you notice, it's not the data moving to where you're trying to process things, now it's all of a sudden being distributed, and so you take that, and you take MicroServices, and you take all these things, and at least from my perspective, I see the value driving out of these systems now is in, how are they connected? How are you observing them, how are you securing them and trusting them? And I believe that's where the value in the next wave of innovation's going to come from. >> Yeah, it's funny, I hear sometimes we talk about the pendulum of technology, and I look in the ten years we've been doing this, really we're talking about the journey along the distributed architecture we've been trying to build, and it's not moving back and forth, but it's kind of... >> Derek: Circling. >> It's kind of circling, and some of the themes are repeating, but it's growing that along the way, so, give us NATS and messaging, how this plays into helping to solve that communication issue, it's the kind of thing, we read about in the Google papers as to, global distributed architectures. >> Yeah, so, the general gist is that NATS was built to power Cloud Foundry, right, and that was the deployment mechanism for applications and such like that. And NATS, just like a lot of the other technologies, was built for an itch I needed to scratch. And it was a silo technology. So about two years ago, we had the opportunity to actually think about if we wanted to make a business out of NATS, right? And any time you say open source and commercial entity, there's challenges, and I don't think anyone has all of the answers. But the answer we came up with internally as a team was, we need to build something that's value is greater than the sum of its parts. I personally, again, and a lot of people won't agree with me and that's okay, I don't believe in the open core model. I don't believe in the fact that you make certain enterprise features and certain open source features. However, what I do believe is that if we could take a communication technology and make it a true utility, like the global cellular now, or the Internet, and connect everything, we'd have these opportunities that no one could foresee, for example, with the web, or even with the global cellular network and what people think is about to happen with the 5G. So we took NATS, which is a very mature technology, made it multi-tinted, made it very, very forward-looking secure, made it run in any Cloud, Edge, IoT, with the hope that we could encourage people to connect everything, start isolated, but have the ability to say, hey, we want to start sharing data securely in an audited way, that it's drop-dead simple to do. It's not a, let's plan a six-month project to integrate your systems with these systems and things like that, and so that's the gist of what we're trying to do, and we believe that running this thing as a server as such that it's a utility, it's not just something for you or for you or for me, it's that we're all using the same thing and we're all connected if we want to be, we think there's value there. >> Derek, maybe let's go in a little bit on NATS, and the service you're running too, but maybe educate us a little bit on the landscape here. We've already talked about IoT, Cloud data, VAP messaging, and I think people understand, to a certain extent, what a messaging system is, sometimes it gets conflated with a streaming system, maybe you could talk about what NATS does really well, we've talked about security, we've talked about a few other things, you've teased already here, but how should we be thinking about NATS? >> Well, I think, outside of NATS, just in general, any type of way of communications, we need to think secure by default, right? We can't do what happened with the Internet, where we go, ooh, it'd be really nice to do these kind of things, but we need security. And we have to wait, as a group of excited individuals, probably 15 years to get that, we can't do that in this generation with IoT and things. But when you look at NATS, or any technology, there's essentially two types of patterns that anybody wants to support. A service-based pattern, where I ask you a question, you give me an answer, ninety-plus percent of distributed systems today, that's their main architectural pattern. So I'm coordinating and asking a lot of questions of these services, micro-services, you know, has become popular. Streaming is now becoming popular with things like Kafka and stuff like that, it's been around for a while, but that's the second, other pattern. So it's like, I'm emitting events or data streams or things like that, and they could be persisted or not, but essentially if you want to make it simple, it's services and streams, and for us, we wanted technology that did equally well in both of them, right, you didn't have to pick one technology for one pattern and another one for a different one. >> All right, let's talk a little bit about your business. So you talked a little bit about kind of the business model, so explain the business model, what you're doing, how that actually goes together? >> Yeah, and for the viewers, this is our take on it, which means it's advice, you get what you pay for, it's free, type of stuff, but, you know... Been around the block a little bit. So, when we started out, what we didn't want to do is ignore the old models. I don't think a long-term business model is the old models, meaning recurring support, consulting, NRE work type of stuff, but I've also seen startups that ignore that and say, "no, we're not going to do that at all." And I did a little bit of that with my prior company, so we embrace that, but we know long-term that's not going to be it. So we deploy a global network, we have a global network, it's available with a single URL, secure by default, runs in every Cloud, every major GO, and more importantly, you can extend it on your own, on your own servers, with the RN off to do that. And we believe that Saas model, that utility model where, again, its value is greater than the sum of its parts, allows us to keep everything open-source, but there's a value in being connected to this network. Multi-Cloud, Cloud to Edge, all that kind of stuff. And what we want is we want customers to slowly transition to that. I've been telling people there's basic cable, which is like, just the dial tone, then there's going to be premium channels on that, that you can pay for, like storage, DR, secrets, zero-trust mechanisms, anomaly detection around communication patterns. People might opt in and say, "ooh, we want to pay for those things 'cause they're interesting to us." And then the last piece of that pie is, there may be people who are running against the global utility, running their own servers, and they go, "that service right there inside of that system, we love it, we want it on premise, can we actually license it from you?" So it's a combination of softwares and service, license revenue, and recurring support. >> Okay, and so, are you enabling partners to deliver those services, is that Synadia does that themselves, where do those premium services come from? >> So, we're going to seed the market, but yeah, we want it to be an open marketplace, and what we will provide is things like billing and such like that, almost, not exactly, but almost like the app store, the Apple app store, where someone who just wants to write a simple service, and if people like it, they don't have to do much, they just have it run and it's receiving stuff and they just get paid. So we do think that's a federated model. Believe it or not, we also feel running the network on a global scale is also federated. So we've designed it such that we don't have to be the only operators. Matter of fact, if we're successful, we're the smallest operator going forward. But, the system is always interconnected, right, so if John's trying to connect in and he's connecting to a Google server, I can connect to that server also, even though Synadia might have actually granted me the rights to access the system. And so we're working on that, we're thinking about that, but Cloud providers are really good at running infrastructure and running services on that infrastructure. We want to embrace that, we just want to make sure that any user of the system, it's like a SIM card that's unlocked, essentially, right? You could go to any provider that you want and it works, that's what we want to make sure we set up for. >> Right, it seems like a great example of this next wave of companies that's being built on top of the existing Cloud infrastructure. You don't have to be a hoster yourself, you could take advantage of and partner with all the other infrastructure providers and interconnect them in several different ways. Maybe, Derek, could you give us an example of an app, what an app might look like that's globally distributed and what kind of messages would be being passed back and forth? >> Sure, so, we're about to release something on Synadia where we truly believe, at the base of everything, it's just sending messages. And so, most people think of NATS as a communication mechanism, and it is, but when we say storage or state storage, they kind of say, "oh, NATS doesn't do that." But we can send a message to a KV service that says KV.set, and I could send a message that says KV get and get it back. Now, what's interesting is, we can make that zero trust, meaning, it leaves your app totally encrypted, so none of our servers, none of Google, Amazon, or Azure's servers, actually even understand what the heck it is, but what's interesting is, you could connect to any of our servers worldwide, or even run your own servers, and connect to those, and it works, all the time. We have another one that's just a usage server, meaning it tells you how much usage you've been racking up, let's say, over the month, kind of like a cell bill. And the way we built it was, there's multiple servers that are running, collecting this data, totally independent, there's no consensus. Everyone has the same subject, NGS.usage, you send a request saying, "what's my usage for the last hour?" Yet the backend service, guaranteed secure, trusted, it receives a request that it knows it's John, knows it's Stu, knows it's Derek, and so it can say, "oh, I'm trying to get John's usage, I'm trying to get Stu's usage." Yet the user experience is, everyone does the same thing, which we think is extremely powerful. And you don't have to do anything unnatural to get that with a system like NATS, right, where we tried to put security first and really think hard about what it meant, and that wasn't fun, it wasn't easy, but we think it's important. >> Yeah. So, Derek, I want to kind of step up-level a second here, 'cause you've got some great viewpoints on things, so, there's some people that look at a show like this or look at the industry and say, "Ah, there's all this hype around multi-Cloud, but there's a lot of challenges." Does it become least common denominator? How do these things work together? My definition that I've been saying for a while, I'll use a phrase you've used a couple of times. If, for multi-Cloud to be real, the value that I get out of it has to be greater than the sum of its parts. You live through the PaaS and the post-PaaS era, you've done a number of environments here, so where are we today, where do we need to go as an industry, as a whole, to reach that value statement that we talk about? >> Yeah, that's a great question. Even from day one in Cloud Foundry, I've believed in multi-Cloud, but I've watched how the markets have actually reacted and what they are doing, and the first wave in my perspective was, posturing for better pricing. To be honest with you, it was Netflix go, "hey we're going to move to Google unless you give us a better price." And I've seen that time and time again. Where it becomes real, though, is, when there's a class of service in a given Cloud provider, that is extremely attractive. Amazon, just in terms of the breadth, Azure a lot for some of the big data stuff, Google a lot for some of the AI stuff they have. Where an organization has a legitimate use to say "we really need best of breed in AI," best of breed in, let's say, big data, and they want to run an app in Azure and an app in Google, and that's kind of the realest situation I've seen. The notion of running something that's truly oblivious and can run anywhere, it's possible, but your lowest common denominators compute and simple storage, and a lot of times, that's not actually distinguishing. So I still see a lot of pricing pressure, you know, posturing, around multi-Cloud, just as a negotiation tactic. Where I see it being real is, this class of app, we want to run it in this Cloud provider to access these services that are differentiating. >> Derek, you have been around for a few generations of Stack wars, PaaS wars, I don't know that they need a name. Any advice to application architects and technologists who are choosing technologies here? I mean, here at this conference, Kubernetes is kind of a common assumption for a lot of what people are doing, not everybody, but there's a lot of other parts that plug into it, and a lot of other decisions to be made about architectures, and about, everything from messaging, to security, to networking, to storage, and I can go on and on and on and on. So, I mean how... Again, you've seen this happen a couple times, people having to pick and make choices, worried about lock-in, whatever they're worried about, I don't know. What are your thoughts on what's the, what are the right ways to do this so you actually succeed? >> Yeah, you know, it's a great question. And yeah, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth quite a bit, but I think for the viewers, I can simplify it, at least from my perspective. It goes between choice and simplicity. So if you look in even the PaaS wars versus IaS versus all that stuff, PaaS was a swing towards simplicity, get stuff done, you know what I mean? And then there was like, "oh, I can get stuff done, but I don't have enough choice." So we saw this swing back, and I think Kubernetes hit at the absolute perfect time to take advantage of, "hey, we need choice at these base layers," right? And the way Kubernetes was architected was to give you that full choice. So if a startup's coming along and saying, okay, given the fact that the pendulum's over here, knowing it's going to be swinging back, and at least in my opinion, we're swinging back for simplicity, concentrate on, how do you simplify what people are struggling with today? So at this conference, there's a tremendous amount of people, you can get a lot of insight into what's going on, ask 'em where it hurts, you know what I mean? What are you struggling with? How long have you been struggling with it? And then solve those problems, especially when the pendulum you know is starting to swing back around. Hey, can we do this in a more simplified way, why does it have to be so hard? Those are the big opportunities right now. But again, it'll swing this way, and it'll swing back, eventually it'll get to the middle, and then we'll pick a whole other class of problems to, you know, swing back and forth from. >> Well, you know, it actually, it's not surprising to me that you're actually echoing a comment that Steve Harrod made on the program yesterday, saying when he goes and talks to all the companies here, it's, tell me how you make my life better as a company, and that's what we need to focus on. That wave toward simplicity absolutely is something we see, it's something we've been driving toward from Kubernetes, but an area that you're spending some time in talking about at the keynote, Edge computing. And absolutely, we need simplicity for that to be able to come there. What are you seeing in the Edge space, what's real, customers you're talking to, give us a little bit of forward-looking as where you see that whole space going. >> Yeah, so, I mean, for me, Edge and IoT, you can define it a lot of different ways, but even for enterprise companies that are here, it's, hey, do you deploy a piece of software out into the field, or a hardware/software combination? So, Bose headsets, Peloton bikes, whatever, that's kind of an industrial IoT type of thing. I see a lot of people wanting to drag what they think works in Cloud out to the Edge. Kubernetes works here, we're going to drag it out here. We're just going to slim it up a little bit and package it. I don't know if that's the right answer. What I think we need to think about is how do we get data and compute, compute meaning processing of that data, securely in a trusted fashion out to the Edge, however that works? It doesn't necessarily mean we have to have all the same pieces, but you have to say, I want to push an update and I want it to go over the air so to speak to the Edge, I want to be able to trust that it's doing the right thing. And so I think there's a massive amount of opportunity around that, and in how do you move all those pieces around. And what we're trying to do at Synadia is encompassing both, right? So we started with the secure by default, trusting in the beginning, and then if we say, hey, it's just messages, and in the keynote, I talked a little bit about our excitement around web assembly. But where we get excited about it is, we give you a drop-dead easy system and say, I want to digitally sign that web assembly for use in this certain situation at the Edge. And then that shovels it out there, and the system looks at it, verifies that it was signed by John, and says, yep, I can run this now. And so we're looking very heavily at those types of opportunities. We don't care how the things are deployed per se, but I would say that I think as you get further out, I think you're going to see more common denominators around web assembly, secure and signed web assemblies, than on how we actually deploy them. So you're going to see lighter weight things, not to say that Kubernetes might not have relevance out there, but I don't think it's needed to get to where we want. We need that trust factor, ubiquitous, communications to really kind of light that field up. The other one at least that we feel we need to meet the customer where they're at, is most of the IoT type devices are MQTT. And so we talked also that in Q1, we're going to allow native MQTT apps to connect directly into a NATS server and the NGS ecosystem, meaning you get the best of both worlds as well. Then an Edge router's running a NATS server, could be a raspberry pie, thousands of devices all connecting in, we think that connectivity and trust will light up a lot of opportunities. >> All right, well, Derek, always a pleasure to catch up with you, thanks so much for the updates. >> Thank you guys, I really appreciate it. >> All right. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here at Kubecon CloudNativeCon, thanks for watching theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live, from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by RedHat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's fourth year of covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is the North America show here in San Diego it's 2019, he is John Troyer, I am Stu Miniman, and happy to welcome to the program, first of all, I have Murli Thirumali, who is the co-founder and CEO of Portworx, and Murli, thank you so much for bringing one of your customers on the program, Satish Puranam, who is a Technical Specialist with Ford Motor Company. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Delighted to be here. >> All right, so Satish, we're going to start with you because, you know, the growth of this ecosystem has been phenomenal, there were End Users up on the mainstage, we've already had them, there's over, there's 129 now CNCF End User Participants there, but, you know, bring us in Ford, you know, we were getting ready for this, we're talking, there's so much change going in from, you know, of course, everybody talks about autonomous vehicles, and what there have, but, you know, technology has really embedded itself deeply into a company like Ford, so before we get into all the crew, just, bring us a little about into your world, what's happening, changing, and, you know, what your team does. >> Sure, in like uh, Ford generally has been in like a transformation journey for about the last two years now, that includes like, completely redoing our Data Centers, our Application Portfolio, as part of this monolithic journey, we started our journey with Cloud Foundry, we have been a huge favorite to Cloud Foundry shops for some time. And then, we also would like to start dabbling with like, Kubernetes and things, associated technologies primarily do for like, looking for like, data services, messaging services, lot of the stateful things, right? Cloud Native and like, Kubernetes, and I- Cloud Foundry, I am sorry, Did great wonders for us, for qualified graphs. So what do we do with like, stateful things? And that's what we started dabbling with Kubernetes and things like that. >> Yeah, Satish, if I could, I want to step back one second here, and say, you know, you do a transformation, consolidation, moving from monoliths to microservices, what was the business driver here, was it one day, some executive got up and said, you know, "hey this sounds really cool, go do it", or was there a specific driver in the business that now, your organization needs to respond to? >> I think the business drive is cost efficiency. Like, uh, there were, like, a lot of things that we would have not done, so there's a lot of technical debt we have to pay down, because of various fragmentation and various other things, so it's always about realizing business efficiencies, and most importantly, speed at which we deliver services to our customers internally, so that was the main driving force for our engaging in this transformation journey for like, about the last few years. >> Okay, Murli we'd love to have bring you to this conversation here. You obviously, agility is one of the things I hear most from customers, the driver of what new things. Infrastructure for the longest time, in many ways, it was like a boat anchor of what held us back. >> Murli: Yep. >> Especially you know, our friends in Networking and Storage, it is difficult to change and keep up with, with what's driving there, so bring us uh, bring us up to speed with Portworx and how you fit into Ford and more broadly. >> Yeah, just a quick introduction to Portworx, we've been around for about five years, now, right from the early days of containers and Kubernetes, and you know, we have quite a few customers now in Production, we have about 130 customers, 50 of the uh, the global 2k and so on, many, almost all those customers are in Production, deploying stat significant workloads. The interesting thing about Kubernetes in the last couple of years, especially, is that everybody recognizes it has won the war for orchestrating containers and applications, but the reality is, the customer still has to manage the whole stack, the stack of not just the app but the data itself underneath, and that's kind of the role of Portworx, Portworx is the platform for storage for Kubernetes, and we orchestrate all the underlying storage and the data applications, with that being said, I think one of the things that we've seen that Ford has kind of led the way in, and has been really amazing, is some of the many surprising things that people don't really know about Kubernetes, which has been happening now with customers like Ford for a while, one of them, for example, is just the use of Kubernetes in on-prem applications. Very few people really kind of, they think of Kubernetes as something that was born in the Cloud, and therefore, has kind of really only mushroomed in the Cloud, and you know, the, one of the key things about Kubernetes, and most of our customers are actually on-prem, and it to me is transforming the Data Center. The agility that Satish speaks about, is something that you don't just need because you are operating in the Cloud, you need that for all of your on-prem applications, too, and that's been one of the unique characteristics that we've seen from Ford. >> Yeah, and that's, I mean, you talked about your journey, Satish, you know, the pivotal folks really talk a lot about transformation and agility you know, no matter where your apps were sitting, I'm kind of curious in terms of the storage and the stateful- statefulness of the applications that your working with now, you know, what kind of a, if I looked at it, the diagram, what kind of a set-up would there be? So there's a Portworx layer underneath and beside Kubernetes that's managing some of the storage and some of the replication? Is it then, is the data sitting in a, you know, on a SAN somewhere, is it sitting in the Cloud, I mean, can you kind of describe what a typical application would look like? >> With your typical application, yes we draw storage, we've been drawing storage for the past several years from NetApp as being as the primary source of our data, and then we run on top of that, we run some kind of storage overlays, we dabble with quite a few technologies, including, uh, Rook, NetApp Trident, Uh, Loster, You know I'm like a, it was a journey A journey that we took us, to ultimately lead us to Portworx and we just didn't started with Portworx, but the toughest aspect has been the gravity that the stories bring along with it, and all the things that are, Cloud Native is great but Cloud Native has stayed somewhere and that has to be managed someplace, and we said "Hey, can we do that with Kubernetes?" Right? So, I think we have done a- I won't say an outstanding job but at least we've done a reasonably good job at actually at least wrapping our heads around it and we have quite a few workloads in production that are actually stateful, whether they are Base Systems, uh, there are also like Data Messaging Systems, many cards applications and all that stuff so that has been something that we have been working on for the past few years on our platforms at least. >> Yeah, well I wonder if you could expand a little bit on kind of the application suite you know, "What can we do? What can't we do?" Listen to the keynote this morning I definitely heard it was, if you look at a multi cluster environment, You know, you want to mirror and have the same things there. Well I can't just magically have all the data everywhere and data has gravity and the laws of physics do apply so I can't just automatically replicate terabytes from here to the Cloud or back so help us understand where we are. >> So, you know, one of the, uh, one of the things Satish told me yesterday which I loved was he saying, he said: "Stateful is almost easier than stateless now because of the fact that we have these extensions of Kubenetes." So, one of the things that's been very very impactful is that Kubernetes is now these extensions for managing you know, storage networking and so on, and in fact the way they do that is through an API that just an overlay, so we are an example of an overlay. And so think about it this way, if a customer about 60 percent of our customers are building a platform as their service, in many cases they don't even know what applications are going to be in there, so over our customer base we see the same alphabet soup over and over and over again. Guess what it is, Postgress, Cassandra's, all the databases Redis, right? You know, all of the messaging queues, right? Things like Kafta and uh, you know, Streaming Data, for example, Spark workloads. And so, one of the key things that is happening around with customers particularly on the enterprise side, like large enterprises, they are using all kinds of applications and they're all stateful. I mean they're very few enterprises that are not stateful and they're all running on some kind of a storage substrate that has virtualized the underlying storage. So we run on top of the underlying hardware, but then we're enabled to kind of work with all of the orchestration that Kubernetes provides but we're adding the orchestration of the Data infrastructure as well as the storage itself And I think that's one of the key things that's changed with Kubernetes in the last, I would say, two and a half years is, most people used to think of it as "in the cloud and stateless" but now it's "on-prem and stateful." >> So Satish, one of the things we've talked to customers is their journey of modernizing their applications, it's, there's things that you might build brand-new and are great here but, you know, I'm sure you have thousands of applications and-- >> Satish: Absolutely. >> You know, going from the old way to a brand new thing, there's lot of different ways to get there. Some of it you might need to just-- Where are you with the journey of getting things onto this platform layer that we're talking about? And what will that journey look like for Port? >> Net new apps, anything being new we're talking about writing and like Cloud Native, Twelve factor Apps, like, but anything new, I'm like, anything existing data services, messaging services, what we affectionately call as table stakes services, right? So, which are the Twelve Factor Apps rely on, we are targeting towards Kubernetes. The idea is, "are we there yet?" Probably "no" like We are getting there with along with our partners to put it on the platforms like Kubernetes, right? So, we are also doing a lot of automation orchestration on VMs itself. But the idea is heavy and heavier workloads are going to be lining on Kubernetes platforms, and there will be a lot of work in the upcoming years particularly 2020, where we will be concentrating more on those things and with the continuing growth would be on Twelve Factor, Net New, would be Twelve Factor, Net New, could be in Cloud Foundry, could be in Kubernetes. Time will tell, but uh, that's the guiding philosophy, so to speak, but uh, There's a lot that we have to learn in this journey right now. >> Well I was kind of curious about that Satish, we've talked about an alphabet soup, we've talked about a lot of different projects, and certainly here at KubeCon, the thing about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation is that not that they don't have opinions, but everybody has an opinon, there's lots of different components here, it's not one stack, it's a collection of things that could be put together in several different ways. So you've tried a bunch of different things with storage, I'm actually, I'm interested if there are, if there were kind of surprises or, you know, containerized activity is probably different than I/O activity and storage I/O is probably different than in a virtual machine, the storage itself has some different assumptions built into it, so like, do you have any advise for people? I'm interested in the storage case but also just in, you don't have to evaluate nerworking and security and compliance and a lot of different things. Like, how do you go about approaching this sort of evaluation in this trial; in this journey of when you have-- when you're facing an "alphabet soup" of options? >> I think uh, it all comes down to basic engineering, right? So, what I make, think about "what are your failure points?" I'm like, "could be servers failing, infrastructure, hardware failing" right? So, the basic tendance is that we try to introduce failure as early as possible, like, "what happens if you pull the wire?" and "what happens if the server failure, failure happens?" The question that always comes back is that "is there a way I can compose the same infrastructure so that I can spread it across a couple of failure domains?" I think that was the whole idea of when we started, is like, "can we decompose the problem such that we can actually take advantage of primitives that begged into Kebernetes?" The great thing with CSI, that we're just realizing, before that were all flex drivers, but, how do you actually organize storage in the back end that actually allows you to actually compose this thing on the front end using the Kubernetes primitives. I think that was the process we though. >> John: And CSI is a standard API, >> Correct. >> Yeah, storage API, yeah. >> Exactly. I mean that's what we are relying, we're hoping that it's going to help us with things like, uh, moving compute, uh, to the storage rather than moving storage to the compute. That's one of the evolving, thinking that we're working with. Portworx, we've been working with the community folks from work and a couple of other areas. It's, there's lot to be done here, like we're just in still early days I would say. >> Murli, want to make sure we get out there, Portworx had some updates for this week so what do you say to latest? >> Yeah, so, the updates actually relate to exactly to what Satish was talking about, you know, the idea of, so, container storage has kind of been on it's own journey right? In the early days that John remembers well, it was really providing storage per system, making that data available everywhere. It's then clearly moved to HA being having the High Availability say within the cluster and so on. So, but the data life cycle for the application that's been containerized extends well beyond that so we are making extensions to our own product that are kind of following that path. So, one of the things we launched a few months ago was disaster recovery, DR, which is very very specific to containers, so, container granular DR, so you can kind of you know, take a snapshot, not just of the data, but of the application state as well as the Kubernetes pods back and recover all three of them. At this KubeCon we're announcing two other things. One of them is backup, so our customers, as they make the journey through their app life cycle, inevitably they need to backup their data and we have, again, container granular backup, that will provide all of, by the way, on existing storage. We're not asking anybody to up change, there's underneath their hardware storage substructure. The last thing we're introducing is storage capacity management which is fully automated. You know one of the characteristics of Kubernetes is all of that is "get the person" "get the trouble to get out of the picture," right? The world is going to be automated. Kubernetes is one of the ways people are doing that. And what we have provided is the ability to auto-resize volumes, and auto-resize pods of storage and add more nodes automatically based on policy that is completely automated so that again, these applications, you know when the characteristics of containerized workloads, they aren't predictable; they go up and down and they grow very fast sometimes, and so all of that management, so autopilot, uh, you know, backup DR have now been added in addition to persistent in HA. >> Alright, so before I let you both go, uh, want to talk about 2020? >> So soon. >> Satish, I want to give you a wish. You talked about all the things you'd do the next couple of years, if you could get one thing more out if this ecosystem to make your lives easier for you and your team, you know? What would that be? >> I think standardization on more of these interfaces. Kerbenetes provides a great platform for everybody to interact equally. Uh, more things like CSI, CRI, stuff that's happening in the community. And more standardization will lead to actually, make my life and things and end prizes a lot more easier. Will like to see continue that happening, GPU space looks very interesting, um, so we'll see. That would be my wish at least. >> Alright so Murli, I'm not giving you a wish. You're going to tell me, what should we be looking for from Portworx in participation in, you know, in this community over the next year. >> I think one of the big changes that's happened, really, in the last couple of years that is really kind of achieving a hockey stick is that enterprises are recognizing that stateful apps are really, should be using Kubernetes and can use Kubernetes. So to me, what I predict is that I think, Kubernetes is going to move from not, from just managing applications, to actually managing infrastructure like storage. And so I, you know, my belief is that 2020 is the beginning of where Kubernetes becomes the control plane across the Data Center and Cloud. It's the new control plane. No, what Openstack was aspiring to be many years ago, and that it will be looking upwards to manage applications and downwards to manage infrastructure and, it's not just us who are doing that, folks like VMware with Project Pacific have kind of kind of indicated that that's the direction that we see. So I think it's roll is now much more than just an app orchestrator, it's really going to be the new control plane for infrastructure and apps in the enterprise and in the Cloud. >> Murli, Satish, thank you so much for sharing all the update. >> Thank you >> Pleasure to catch up with both of you >> Thanks. >> Northbound, Southbound, Multi Cloud, theCube is at all of these environments and all the shows. For John Trayer, I'm Stu Miniman as always, thank you for watching theCube.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to two cubes. Live coverage in San Francisco, California for VM World 2019. I'm John Ferrier, Postal Cuba David Lattin, My Coast, Dave. 10 years covering the BM World Paul Maritz laid out the stack early on. We saw that and watch it go through Its motions now >> remain from the marketing people got a hold of >> that mainframe turned into cloud Now hybrid cloud seven years after we first started about 2012 has been great Our next guest, Paul Falsone, S V. P and general manager of the Cloud Native APS. This is a business unit within VM where that is going to the next level. This is the Act three is Jerry Chen said any of you I talked earlier for VM wears a company. I won't say moving up the staff because there is no stack. It's cloud, right? So its applications on top of operating infrastructure Dev ops going enterprise scale is about developers building APS operating them in scale. This is a big focus of what you're doing. >> It is a dead end of the day. One of my close friend of mine, who's in front of customers all the time, reminds our team constantly that our customers applications matter of the most cause. That's what they used to get in front of their customers with the Dillman teams and the tools they're building the user. Japs come second cause that's what supports the abs. And then the infrastructure comes third zone away. There is that stacks it, but never forget you were at the bottom of the pecking order, if you will, when it comes to ultimately bringing full customer value to our company, our customers, businesses. >> And it's one of the things we've been looking back at our 10 years covering VM where I think you're 13 15 of'em world is that the virtual ization of all very quickly around really optimizing server virtualization really kind of change. The game of one kind of knows that our knows the history there, but it did it without any code changes, too, APs and I think that was a very innovative thing. Now we looking containers and what Kubernetes is bringing to the table. You're starting to get some clear visibility into what's happening and what's possible. Could >> you >> share your vision on what that visibility is that you guys are eyeing for the marketplace in four of'em, where, >> sure, the APP development methodologies are changing, changing more today than they have in the last 20 years. We're seeing ah lot of new concepts and approaches that right now really only accessible to a small percentage of application developers worldwide. We want to try to bring those application development methodologies, practices tools to the mainstream so we can. We can touch the 13 or $14 million.1,000,000 enterprise developers around the world and help the CEOs in their line of business counterparts at our customers get a CZ much productivity out of their development teams as possible. At the end of the day, those APS we're gonna power the next decade of those organizations success or failures with their customers, and so that's becoming a real competitive asset. I've had a number of customer discussions here this week where the primary theme is how me help my developers move faster at enterprise scale, but in a regulated environment in an environment where compliance is is front center >> to big things going on in your world that we covered extensively, honestly, pretty impactful to the Vienna, where portfolio one as open source and hefty oh, acquisition half a billion dollars almost a year ago, about a year left in less than a year, probably was that we close in December last year. So yes, ovary. Just recently we know those guys all people. I mean, I've been covering that for a while, and then I'll see the pivotal acquisition. Just announced a drink from the fire hose. There be doing tons of press briefings, those to impact points, kind of leaving a mark. >> So we've been we've been building up to this. I joined AA Drink them were in 2012 through the Sierra acquisition, but I moved into this role about just about three years ago, and one of the things that we identified early on was, ah, close partnership with Pivotal was going to be essential inside of the Del Technologies umbrella for us to exist in thrive together. And so that's where the idea for P Cass was born. So the combination of V. M. R. R and D with pivotal RND focused on delivering our first community service to our enterprise. Customers we brought helped you in last year. Once they saw what we were doing and thought about the possibility of what would happen if we actually took some of the concepts of communities and p ks and embed them into V sphere, That was, I think, the real ah ha moment for for us and the happier team coming together in the power of what that could enable. But all along the way, we always believed that that was just covering the infrastructure side of the equation. You still needed to get through the making the APP developers productive and efficient in this new infrastructure world and so on to be able to do so on any cloud. And that's where the pivotal piece finally came together last just last month. July Pivotal put out a lot of information in the market around how they're evolving their portfolio to be very cool, bernetti centric, moving forward. And that was a big part about getting all the pieces lined up so that the M word could deliver what we announced this week. The in the town's a portfolio with the component tree for building running in managing modern applications on any club, >> we've kind of come full circle here, predates, and I Sarah, But you guys talking about the stack? Yeah. Paul Moretz. I used to have the whole stack. Ed actually applications up here with Simba. Spring sources around. Exactly. And then you had these when I used to call the misfit toys. Have you had some assets in the M. C as coming in Vienna, where Paul Maritz, Joe Tucci decided, create pivotal as the The platform developed next generation applications. Now it's all come full circle there. So my question is related to that stack and particularly the death part of that stack. This audience is not Deb's not, but increasingly, you've gotta attract that audience. So what's what's your thoughts there? And so >> I think pivotals done a very nice job over the years through the Con Foundry Foundation. The work they've done there through the spring community Spring is at this stage is is arguably the most popular modern Java development environment on the planet. So, you know, we're seeing a tremendous amount of leverage of that of that framework and so between the events of pimples is actively involved in Leeds and their ability to help customers, um teach their enterprise developers how to get the most out of this modern tool kit. We think that there is some wonderful ingredients to a recipe to really scale this thing up in a big way. We way. I also believe that Veum we're still has a lot to learn about what it means to best support enterprise developers and their organizations. And so we are quite a bit in learning mode right now. We're gonna take a lot of lessons from the pivotal team as we as we move forward towards the close and learn a lot more about the team in the culture and their customer engagements. But one of the things I think is is front and center to what pivotal has for customers today is their transformation Service's customers. You've got different groups inside a customer summer looking to build the newest applications. Some of them are just trying to get more operational efficiency out of what they have today. Some of these customers have 12,000 applications in their environments. Um, pivotal has ah set of service is that come in and they help them take their existing monolithic applications and just modernize key components of them so they can operate them more efficiently and reclaim a lot of resources to go do other things. That, I think is probably the lowest hanging fruit for enterprise organizations today. And I'm very, very excited about the service is that pimple has to make available the customers on that front. >> Assad and Jerry Chen, earlier than the other set I was mentioning earlier is a VC now, Greylock, big time to your one. We see former VM Where, uh, guy from 22,003. He also worked on cloud foundries in sight. We ask about the white spaces where starts to thrive in one of the transit is kind of pointing to was have some cummings going public. Some are being bought at sizable numbers, but we rift on. The idea of monitoring was a boring category right now. Observe ability, which is just be monitoring 2.0, you got I pose. You got acquisitions. I mean, major action happening in this observe ability space. I bring this up because that's an area you think, Oh, it's a white space Data opportunities for companies to build service is really points to this cloud. 2.0 application Renaissance And I want to get your thoughts on that environment. What needs to be in place to make that happen? Honestly, pivotals keep for you guys. I get that on Vienna. Where side, but for the ecosystem and for the marketplace, people trying to make careers and or do things What is that cloud 2.0, complexity that need to be abstracted away or >> so The Pepto team had a great Craig and Joe had this great, uh, one liner on kubernetes is all about where the people structure meets the infrastructure. When you think about that, our enterprise organizations have thousands if not tens of thousands of developers all trying to do similar. But a lot of cases different things at the same time, across lots of different cloud infrastructures. On the infrastructure team side, you've got private cloud, you've got hybrid cloud. You've got public cloud environments that you have to get your arms around, monitor, manage, secure and get visibility into. We believe that Carini sits at that perfect layer between the two domains on. This is a big part of why we developed Tom's a mission control. It's just that that perfect layer between the two domains, too, access the company's later and give you full visibility into what all of your developers were doing on every piece of your infrastructure. And we also think that's gonna be a very interesting place for third parties to plug into to gain access to all of the community's clusters that we're helping. Our customers managed across their app landscape to do very interesting things. And so we're really excited about the ecosystem that that project will open up. >> You think this opportunity to start ups in there? >> I do. I do. I think there's a ton of other I mean, think about it just really basic math. Ah, VM based application. When it gets containerized, it has just on the compute side alone. Never mind the networking in the storage site. There are 10 times as many moving parts. A typical containerized EPA's 10 times as many moving parts as avian bay Step. If you think about that applied to the networking layer, you think about that applied to the storage layer, the security layer. You've got 10 times as many points to secure. Now, how do you get your head around that level of complexity As a an operations person, you can't do it. Humans can't do it anywhere. You can't write down your actions. Control this on a pad of paper and know what's what's accessing what anymore, >> Dave. One more question, if I may, on the on the VM container thing, there's a debate or are architectural kind of conversation, and customers are having around when to do containers in three days on bare metal or with V EMS. How do you guys talk to that house? The >> steam going because that was my question. So there was a snarky tweets yesterday. I want to get your reaction to it. And the tweet was during yesterday's keynote. I thought we we launched pivotal so that we didn't have to run containers on V EMS. Now the reality to your point is that people are running containers on bare metal. They're running him on vehement the EMS. I don't have any data, but I wonder if you could comment on that >> so way Probably have a couple of snarky comments of our own on this three share one of the things that put up on stage. Yes, I'll start at the kind of a little little. And I worked my way up at the base layer. The testing we're doing with Project Pacific, which is something we announced this week, which is effectively bringing kubernetes into the heart of the sphere. We're actually using combinations to make the sphere better. We're also going to expose communities to our customers through V sphere, just like we exposed the EMS today. This is a pretty exciting project for the for the company in our early testing of this project, based on the advanced scheduling capabilities of the SX hyper visor take advantage of modern hardware. We're seeing an 8% better performance in a certain test sweet versus what you'd see on bare metal so are ready at the early stages. We're seeing some benefits now take that a step further. The big public college for writers out there if you look at service is like G K on Google. If you look at a ks, uh, recast on Amazon, a cast on his door, every single one of their community service is is run against a virtualized environment, not on a bare metal environment. Why is that? Well, because their customers are using containers in VM, side by side, the flexibility you get out of that virtualization layer. Whether you're a big public cloud provider or your ah smaller enterprise shop running your own data centers, the benefits are proportionate, rather equal on dso >> the narratives off a little bit. What you're saying. What I hear you saying is people use virtualization for a lot of efficiency and scale reasons that's independent of what happens with bearnaise decisions. So if you decide you want to run Cubans on bare metal, go >> to go to town. We think >> if you want to do that, >> you want to do that. But we don't. We actually see a lot of customers who have started down that path. When they go to get to that operational stage, they're realizing they're now dealing with firm where again, they're dealing with Nick drivers again. They're dealing with stuff, and they can easily take that and turn it over to their ops team that's already managing a huge virtualized state and operated with the same tool. >> That's a really a layer thing around round scale. You do the virtual ization for Ryan reasons, and then cos sits on top of it for a whole another reason. >> And the I'd say its operations scale these operations teams need to, you know, just look at the number of announcements we made this week. For an ops team to get their head around all of these new technologies simultaneously is impossible to bring them in one new capability of time into the thing that they're already operating for. That organization is very >> positive. If I understood yesterday, you're claiming better before 8% better performance relative to bare metal. I know that's apples to apples. Or what kind of juicing you're doing on the benchmark >> sex schedule that it chooses it right there. >> I want to ask you about integration and look at it as a quasi. His story of the the industry. You go back to see A with all the acquisitions, right? Historical force it with fusion. Different layer of the stack. I know. Certainly Del did a lot of acquisitions. Some of them work. Some of them didn t m c. Same thing pretty successful. Actually. VM were great engineering. Um, very strong. Go to market on really good acquisitions. My question is on integration with the nice Sarah background, I wonder. I mean, nice. Sarah seems to be very well integrated into the VM. Where platform How is integration The state of integration today within V. M. Where is it a lot easier today because we're living in this AP I economy. What about VM? Wears sort of integration ethos. One of the challenges. I wonder if you could comment and that long. So >> I've been through, uh, to significant integrations of'em where the 1st 1 was with this nice era on. I was on the I was on the incoming side, not the receiving side. The next was with hep Theo. I was on the receiving side, not the incoming side. And so, as coming into this year, back in 2012 Pat was extremely supportive and asked his entire team to be very supportive of getting us integrated quickly and productive. A CZ fastest possible. We were on campus on the via more campus from the next era office within days of the deal closing. That's how efficient Veum work. That's like that's the mindset hammerhead coming into. We were in a building. We were co located with the other networking engineers and product managers. Within the first week on, we were off to the races. That was about 100 20 person company. Hep Ko is about 100% company, Um, about the same efficiency we were consolidating. Offices were bringing them over again, mostly distributed team, but they had a center of gravity. In Seattle. We had a center of gravity in Bellevue. We brought the team's over within within a couple of months in about three months. In three and 1/2 months in, we had the team fully integrated. The organizational design done all the tools in a greater we're all in the same systems. So what happens very quickly now, an organization that's much bigger like like pivotal 3000 employees. Public company takes a little bit longer to get from Deal announced the deal close because it's too public entities. It'll take a little bit longer to do all the integration, but we're already thinking thinking about we know them so well and they know us so well. We already know where the potential landmines are, where the potential rough spots are. Pat prides himself and, uh, this pushes down into the rest of them were on well, welcoming new team members in new groups into the company. And so we try to do that really were very culturally sensitive way optimized for the right tool kit s O that we take, we take some learning like cloud health. When they came in, they had a lot of expertise around. SAS drooling and support of customers were adopting all of that, right. Were jettisoned some of our older tools in favor of some of the things that >> we're gonna win the modernization. So I want to get your thoughts on the last question for the second congratulations, your your your area. We love what you're doing. We think it's super important. Would be covering it like a blanket this year and going forward. But Pakistan came on was wrapped. Talking about 10 years and doing the riffing on the Cube are 10 years covering it. We have some 10 years forward, which waves to be on. They highlighted on the past 10 years in this ear acquisition as a critical moment to bring VM. We're into the S T D C kind of concept started networking up, so we know the history they're sti n and then going forward, he says. If you're not a networking and security in the next wave and Kubernetes is Number one, you're really gonna be missing out. So we highlighted networking, security and kubernetes. But networking. It's nice here on both sides of that 10 year spectrum. You're part of that. >> Why is that? Why is that wise >> watching people know that networking is the most important piece of the wave here? What's the relevance of what he's saying? Share their thoughts on >> Think about the increasing complexity of what at modernization drives into the infrastructure. You're getting smaller and smaller moving parts that that need to operate together at scale in a comprehensive, logical way. But at any point in time, if you're if you're an enterprise organization, if you've got if you've got compliance requirements, audit ability, requirements. If you want to protect, you hear about the number of of small towns that get blackmailed on a daily basis because someone's secured an encrypted There, there, there count taxpayer data and they're there, their victims. All right, this is this >> is some say, cyber warfare. >> It is something. So if you think about in orderto help, our customers get the most out of their developers, these tools that open up I think the potential of a lot more avenues of attack get a lot more complex. And so we think that these two have to progress hand in hand. One. We do want to help developers go as fast as possible. We won't help enterprises get the most out of those developers. That's a big part of why we brought them were into into the damn warfare. We're bringing a pivotal into the VM. We're family, but at the same time, we recognize that the infrastructure has to progress. Every bit is fast, and the network is the thing that ties all these parts together. Whether it's a layer three year layer for networking today or level layer several networking layer seven AP I based networking in the future >> all. I mean, I'm not gonna bring up I ot or industrial i ot to takeovers of physical devices, whether it's a self driving bus off a cliff or taking over towns and cities warfare, I mean the service areas of enormous networks, Internet connectivity applications over the cloud native. Anyway, we know that, right? So a lot to talk about. Thanks for coming on. The Cube Sharing your insight. Senior Vice President, General manager, The Cloud Native APS Group. This is really the key instrument with envy em where to take kubernetes and the advancement of cloud to 0.0 to the next level. I'm John for a day. Volante, be back after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high-tech coverage, it's theCUBE, covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. Two sets, wall-to-wall coverage, our 10th year. We actually call this one the Valley set, over on the other side, it's in the middle of a meadow, and this was in the valley. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for this segment is, of course, John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. And joining us, the quintessential Valley guest that we have, Jerry Chen. Long time participant in the program, climbing up the leaderboard here of theCUBE Times at VMworld. Jerry, thank you so much for joining us. >> Stu, John, thanks for having me back. >> All right, so we knew you back when you worked for VMware. >> Jerry: Right. >> You're now a partner at Greylock. We watched some of your amazing startups, we've had many of them on our program. Just a little bit going on in your world this day, maybe we'll start there. >> Sure, it amazes me, both being at VMworld 10 years since you guys started covering. For me, I joined VMware back in 2003. So I was at the first Vmworld, through every single one of them, and seeing this ecosystem reinvent itself, and juxtapose that with every other conference at Moscone. So Dreamforce, Oracle OpenWorld, VMworld. And I would say five years ago, no one would have thought Dreamforce itself, or Salesforce as an ecosystem big enough for investors. But yes, now they can invest in startups. All they do is sell to the Salesforce ecosystem. You can always invest in a startup. All they sell to is the VMware ecosystem. And for sure, when, you and I, three of us go to Amazon or an event, that ecosystem just continues to grow exponentially year over year. >> And this some of the highlights of Datadog, we were talking before we came on camera. They always had a big booth, they bet on the AWS ecosystem, not a lot of Datadog here, but monitoring turns into observability, a key component, which basically was a white space. I mean, monitoring was boring. A little sector, but because of the nature of the data security auditing, this has become kind of a killer category. >> I think last week you saw SignalFX get acquired by Splunk, which is another huge enterprise company, and Datadog filed their S-1. No one thought monitoring would be a big enough market to support multiple billion plus companies, and what we've learned is making a bet on just cloud-native companies like Datadog did, purely in the Amazon Ecosystem, was a great bet because they've grown super fast, and that market turned out to be very big. In addition, it could be Splunk, and they could bet on logging for mostly on-premise companies. That turned out to be a large market. So I think five, 10 years ago, no one thought that these markets would be so big and so gigantic. The cloud itself, you can have a multi-billion dollar company like Datadog purely on a cloud-native application and cloud-native companies, if you will. >> You know, it's interesting, you're a VC and the enterprise specialist at Greylock. Consumer used to be all the rage in venture. "Oh, we're going to consumer against Facebook," Facebook breaks democracy, all kinds of problems. Being regulated. But enterprise became really hot with the cloud, and then you have an interesting dynamic. Now a thousand flowers are blooming on the startup side, so yes, there's a lot of action in startups, but the buyers of startups and the IPO markets is where the liquidity happens, which you care about, right? So now you have liquidity options for IPO for fast-growing flit scalers as you guys call it, and then the M and A market are buying the companies. So I got to ask you, with seeing Splunk as a great example, where they own the log market, log files, bring SignalFX in, former VMware guys and Facebook guys, comes in, they add some servability piece to it. Splunk's got more power now because of the acquisition. It's not just token acquisition. This is the market, product market slash M and A market. What's your thoughts on that? Because that's a key exit opportunity, and the numbers are pretty sizable when you think about it. >> I think just going back to the opportunity, the market's so big that you have multiple multi-billion dollar companies, so like Splunk's a huge company, great company. We're investors in a company called Sumo Logic. That's going to also be a successful company, and also a big-- >> John: And filed for IPO. >> And a big company that's OZA, Amazon, and Vmworld. So I think what you have here is each of these markets are monitoring, APM, the log, infrastructure, are turning out to be multi multi-billion, and larger than we anticipated. So I think before, to your analogy in the consumer, we always knew consumer markets had huge TAMs. Like how many billion in people are on Facebook? How many billion people are on Twitter? What we're learning now is the market and the TAM for these enterprise software companies, be it SAAS, be it LOG, be it Metrics, be it security, those TAMs are actually bigger than we thought beforehand as well. >> And the driver of that is what? Cloud, transformation, just replatforming, modernization? The businesses are businesses still. >> I think the move to cloud is accelerate, I think your last line, "businesses are businesses," is what's key. Like every business now is being touched by software. They all got to go cloud so I'm an investor in a company called Blend that does mortgage software. So the entire financial services industry, from mortgages to car loans and consumer lending, that's all going digital. That's all going online. Jobs that were like mortgage brokers are going to be an app on your phone now. So finance, retail, healthcare, construction, so all these markets now are going to the cloud, going digital, so these TAMs are expanding exponentially. >> Yeah, Jerry, want to get your take on the ecosystem. You know, we look at VMware, they built a big ecosystem, the end user computing space, you know. You've coined the term Virtual Desktop Infrastructure, from that environment there was an ecosystem around there. I see VMware at a lot of shows, and they have a good presence there, and there's some overlap between the public cloud space. Like when I go to this show, and I walk through the expo hall, oh my gosh. Data protection is everywhere, and all of those companies are at a all of the cloud environment, but do you see a transition from, you know, where VMware is in kind of the cloud-native space? Is there a lot of overlap, or what's your thinking on those kind of dynamics? >> I think all above. I think VMware at Vwworld, and like all these tech companies are constantly reinventing themselves and expanding. So you have, as a VC, say it's this company I'm looking at, when it's two individuals, and a dog, and PowerPoint. Is it a feature, is it a product, or is it a company? It's a feature, it's okay. You know, it's probably not worth the investment, but it's worthwhile. It'll get acquired for something. Is it a product? Some companies are just one killer product, right? And you can ride that product for the arc of the company. But then some startups turn out be companies, multi-product companies. And there always have one or two great products, and then you start adding new things as the market evolves, and VMware has done that. And so, as a result of adding server virtualization, desktop virtualization, Cloud Foundry which I helped build, out in the Kubernetes stuff. So they're adding multiple products to their company. I think the great companies can do that. Look at Amazon. They keep launching 10 new products every single month. Microsoft has done a great job reinventing themselves. So I think the great companies can reinvent, but not transform, they just add to what they have, and just to be a multi-product family. >> Stu: All right, so you mentioned Cloud Foundry. >> Yeah. >> Pivotal, of course, is now back in the mothership where it started there. When Cloud Foundry first started it was, "Well, we're not going to take the hypervisor "and put it all of these places." We needed a slightly different footprint. Well, five years later, we're talking about Kubernetes is going to be baked into Vsphere, and Vsphere is going to be a main piece of VMware's cloud-native strategy. Has the market changed or some of those technology pieces, you know, still a challenge? What's your take there? >> You know, it's a great question because I think what we're seeing is there's never ever in technology as you guys know, on platforms, it's a zero-sum game. It's never always going to all mainframe, all client server, all VMs, all microservers, all Serverless, right? And I think we're seeing is it's also never going to be all Amazon, it's never going to be all Google, it's never going to be all Azure, right? I think we talked about early days, it's not a winner take all. It may be, you know, what one-third, two-thirds, or something, 25-40% market share, but it's not going to be all or nothing. And so we're seeing companies now have architectures on multiple clouds, multiple technologies, and so just like 10 years ago, you had a mainframe team, you had a Windows team, you had a Solaris team. Remember Sun and Spark? And a Linux team. Now you have a Google team, and Azure team, an Amazon team, and an on-prem team. And so you just had these different stacks evolve, and I think what's interesting to see is like, we've kind of had this swing of momentum around Docker, Containers, Kubernetes, Serverless, but at the same time you see a bunch of folks realize, okay, what's happening is I'm choosing how much I want to consume. Like an API, a container, or a whole VM, right? And people realizing, yes, maybe consuming the APIs is our right level of consumption, but quite frankly, Stu, John, buying whole VMs also what I want. So you see a bunch of companies say, I'm just going to build better monolithic applications around VMware, I'm going to build better microservices around Docker and Kubernetes, and then we'll use Serverless where I think I need to use Serverless. >> Yeah, that's a good point. One of the things we hear from customers we talk to, and there's two types of enterprise customers, at least in the enterprise infrastructure side, classic CIOs and then CISOs. Two different spectrums. CIOs, old, traditional, multi-vendor means a good thing, no lock in, I know how to deal with that world. CISOs, they want to build their own stacks, manage their own technology, then push APIs out to the suppliers, and rechange the supplier relationship because security is so important they're forced to the cutting edge. So I look at that a kind of canary in the coal mine, and want to get your thought on that, because we're seeing a trend where enterprises are building software. They're saying, hey, you know, I want a stack internally that we're going to do for a variety of different reasons, security or whatever, and that doesn't really blend well for the multi-cloud team approach, because not everyone can have three killer teams building stacks, so you're seeing some people saying, you know, I'm going to pick a cloud here and go all in on certain things, build the stack, and then have a backup cloud there. And then some CIOs say, hey, you know what? I want all the cloud guys in there negotiating their best price maybe, or whatever. >> I think it's great nuance you pointed out. Even just like we had a Windows team and a Linux team, you still had a single database team that ran across both, or storage teams are ran across both. So I think the nuance here is certain parts of the stack should be Azure, Amazon, VMware. Certain parts of the stack should be, I think that the ultimate expression is just an API with service errors. So one of the companies you guys are familiar with, Roxette, it's a search and Serverless analytics company. It's basically an API in the cloud, multi-cloud, to do search and analytics. And just like you had a database team that's independent across all these stacks, for certain parts of the architecture, you're going to want something like Roxette, that's going to be independent of the architecture stacks. And so it's not all isolated, it's not siloed, it's not all horizontal, depending on the part of the stack, you're going to either want a horizontal cross-cloud solution, or a team that's going to go deep on one. >> So it's really a contextual decision based on what the environment looks like, or business. >> And there's certain areas of technology that we know from history that lends themself to either full stacks versus horizontals. Just like I said, there was a storage team and a database team, right? That's Oracle, or something that ran across Windows and Linux and Sun, you're going to see someone like Roxette become this search and Serverless analytics team across multiple cloud stacks. >> This is why the investment is such a great opportunity for the enterprise VCs right now because, I mean, there's so many dimensions of opportunities for companies to grow and become pretty large, and the markets are shifting so the TAM is pretty big. Michael Dell was just on the other side, I interviewed him. He says, you know, he was getting kind of in Dave's grill saying, "Well, the TAM for enterprise is bigger than cloud TAM." I go, "Well that TAM is going to be replatformized, so like that's going away and moving, shifting, so the numbers are big but they're shifting so tons of opportunities. >> It depends if you're a big company like Dell versus a small startup. Oftentimes, this true that the TAM for enterprise is still much larger than cloud, but your point is what's shifting were the dollars growing fast. >> The TAM for horses was huge at one point, and then, you know, cars came along, right? So you know. >> Every startup, what you want to do, you want to attach to a growing budget. You don't want to attach to a flat to shrinking budget. And so right now, if you're a founder, and say, "Okay, where are the budget dollars flowing to?" Everyone's got a kind of a cloud strategy, just like they had a VMware virtualization strategy, so if I'm like a startup G, metrics, or data analytics, I'm going to try to attach to where the dollars are flowing. That's a cloud strategy, that's an AI application strategy, security strategy. >> So let me ask you one question. So if I'm going to start up, this is a hypothetical startup, startups got an opportunity. It's a SaaS-based startup, they say, "You know what? "This is a feature in the market "that's part of a bigger system, "but I'm going to innovate on that." I think that with the markets shifting, that could evolve into a large TAM to your point about Datadog. What's the strategy, from an investment standpoint, that you would take? Would you say go all in on the single product? Do you want to have one or two features? What's the makeup of that approach, because you want to have some maybe defensibility, is it go all in on the one thing and hope that you return into like a Salesforce, then you bolt stuff on, or do you go in and try to do a little platform play underneath? >> It depends where you are in the startup world. We're in lifecycle. Look, startups succeed because they do one thing better, right? And so focus, focus, focus. And you have to have something that's like 10 times faster, 10 times better, 10 times cheaper, or something different. Something the world hasn't seen before. But if you do that one thing well, either A, you're taking budget dollars from incumbents, or B, you're something net new, the world hasn't seen, people will come to you when they see utility. As an investor I like to see that focus, I like to see, you know, some founders you get say, hey, Stu, think bigger. Some founders like John think smaller. Like what's your wedge? What's that initial entry point to the customer you're going to hit? Because once you land that, you get the right to do the next product, the next feature. >> That's the land, adopt, expand, like Xoom did. Or they picked video, >> Correct, voice, et cetera. >> I mean who the hell thought that was going to be a big market? It's a legacy market but they innovated with the cloud. >> Absolutely. I have all these sayings that I try to say like, "You don't get to play the late innings, "if you don't make it out the early innings," right? You know, and so if you want and have this strategy for this large platform, that's great, and every VC wants to see a path there. But they want to see execute from we're going to land, and we're expand. Now, startups fail because either where they land, they picked incorrectly. Like you decided to storm the wrong beach, right? Or it's either to small, or it's too big. The initial landing spot is too big, and they can't hold that ground. And so part of the art of navigating from Point A to Point B, or where I say, Act one, Act two, Act three of a lifecycle is make sure that you land correctly, earn your keep, show a lot of value, win that first battle, if you will, Act one, and then they move to Act two, Act three, and you can see a company like VMware clearly on their second, third act, right? And they've done a nice job of owning one product category, server virtualization, desktop virtualization, now expanding to other adjacent categories, buying companies like Carbon Black, right? In terms of security. So it doesn't happen overnight. I mean, VMware started in 1998. I was there when there was about 200 employees. People forget Amazon's been, gosh 27, 1998, when Bezos started selling books. Now they're selling books, movies, food, groceries, video, right? >> When did you first use AWS? Was it when the EC2 launched? I mean, everyone kicked the tires on that puppy. >> We all kicked the tires. I was at VMware as a Product Manager, I think it was '06 when they launched, right? And we all kind of kicked the tires on it. And it was a classic innoverse dilemna. We saw this thing that you thought was small and a very narrow surface area. Amazon started with an EC2, >> Two building blocks, storage and EC2. >> S-3, right, that's it. And then they said, "Okay, we're going to give a focus, focus on basic compute and basic object storage," and people were like, "What can you do with S-3? "Nothing," right? It's not a Sand, it's an availability. It's going to fail all the time, but people just started innovating and working their way through it. >> All right, so Jerry, when you look at the overall marketscape out there today, it seems like you still feel pretty confident that it's a good time for startups. Would you say that's true? >> Absolutely. >> All right, I want to get your final word here. 10 years in theCUBE at Vmworld, you know, you've known John for a long time. Did you think we'd make it? Any big memories as to what you've seen as we've changed over the years. >> I've plenty, let's go back to, >> John: Okay, now you can embarrass us. >> 10 year anniversary of VMworld. For your first Vmworld 10 years ago, I was like a Product Manager, and John Furrier, I think I met at a Press dinner, and he's like, "Hey, Chen," walking by, "come here, sit down," and they turn the camera on, and we had no idea what was going on, and he just started asking a bunch of random questions. I'm like, sure, I haven't cleared this with marketing or anyone else, but why not? >> John: Hijack interview, we call that. >> Hijack interview, and then it's been amazing to watch the two of you, Dave, John, everybody, grow SiliconANGLE and theCUBE in particular, and to this, the immediate franchise, in terms of both having a presence at all these shows, like Amazon, Oracle World, DreamForce, Vmworld, etc. But also the content you guys have, right? So now you have 10 years of deep content, and embarrassingly enough, 10 years, I guess, of videos of yours truly, which is always painful to watch, like either what I was saying, or you know, what my hair looked like back then. >> Stu: Jerry, you still have hair though, so. (laughing) >> Well, the beautiful thing is that we can look at the reputation trajectory of what people say and what actually happens. You always had good picks, loved the post you did on MOATs. That turned out to be very timeless content, and yeah, sometimes you miss it, we sometimes cringe. >> We miss a bunch. >> I remember starting one time with no headset on. Lot of great memories, Jerry. Great to have you in the community. Thanks for all your contribution. >> I look forward to the next 10 years of theCUBE, so I got to be here for the 20th anniversary, and now if I walk away, come back on right away, do I get another notch on my CUBE attending list so I can go up and catch Hared in the best? >> If you come on the other set, that counts as another interview. >> Perfect, so I got to catch up with Steve and the rest of the guys. >> Steve just lost it to Eric Herzog just a minute ago. We had a ceremony. It was like a walk through the supermarket, the doors thing, and the confetti came down. 11th time so you got to get to 11 now. So 12 is the high water mark. >> Done, we need t-shirts. (laughing) >> Well Jerry, thanks so much for joining us again. For John Furrier, I'm Stu Miniman, and you can go to theCUBE.net, if you search for Jerry Chen, there's over 16 interviews on there. I know I've gone back and watched some of them. Some great discussions we've had over the years. Thanks so much, and stay tuned for lots more coverage here at Vmworld 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to our live coverage here in Mosconi North Lobby, Of'em World 2019. I'm John for a Student and a Volante celebrating our 10th VM World or 10 years of covering the M world. Dave's stew. What a run been Go back across Mosconi South 10 years ago with the green set. This is 10 years later. 10:10 p.m. World BMC Rule No longer the show, so that kind of folds in the Dell Technologies Man, The world's changed. Pat Nelson had just delivered his keynote as CEO Sanjay Poon and a CEO came on talk to customers stew. A lot of acquisitions, a lot of cloud native, a lot of cloud. 2.0, this is turning into VM. Wear 2.0, where vm zehr kind of only one part of the equation. So let's jump into the analysis, Dave. I mean, you put out some killer research on silken angle dot com, and we keep on dot com around customer spend still, we put out a lot of analysis on all the key trends that Vienna was playing into. Cloud two point. Oh, is what we're calling it. It's enterprise Cloud of fresh scale Day. What? What? What? What do you want? Your analysis, Latino >> John, when you go back. 10 VM Worlds ago, it was all about virtualization, completely changing the deployment dynamics. When when I first saw a VM deployed, I went, Oh, my God, This is gonna change everything. And it did. But while compared to now what's happening with cloud and a I we heard so much about five g. It was also the big, big difference in the ecosystem. Back when e. M. C owned VM wearing 2010 there was that sort of Chinese wall stew. You were working there, you know, just before that. And there wasn't a lot of, you know, swapping of I P, if you will. They were sort of treating them as unequal player to net app and everybody else out there. Tod Nielsen used to say, for every dollar spent on of'em were licensed, 15 spent an ecosystem. You don't hear that kind of narrative anymore, you hear we're crushing the HC. I vendor where number one basically a sort of backhand to Nutanix We heard on the on the keynote Very tight integration VX rail project Dimension So much, much tighter integration since Pat Tell Singer joined VM. Where from the emcee lots has changed >> will be a lot of research on reporting leading up to the show around Cloud two point. Oh, I'll see Dev. Ops is willing to home of the dimension on enterprise scale, the number of acquisitions of'em wears made and then, boom. They dropped two monsters on the table or the 11th hour pivotal for 2.7 billion carbon black for 2.1 billion. Lot of stories in those AK was other acquisitions, your analysis and how that played out today on the >> Kino. As Dave said when we started coming to this event back in 2010 you know, the virtual machine was the center of the universe. What were these servers that it lived on, how to storage and network and get fixed to be ableto live in that environment And the keynote. It was a lot of cloud, you know, John, we brought in a lot of the Cloud camp people that first year and some people were like, Why are we talking about Cloud? This is VM World, and we're like, Well, this is the future. And today we're not talking about V EMS at the center we're talking about containers were talking about cloud native applications, that multi cloud world absolutely something that pack l singer did. Front center actually felt it almost glossed over a little bit of the H C, I and NSX and all these wonderful things. Sure, there was some big del pieces in there. The M word cloud on Delhi emcee the Del Di are, you know, data protection, power protect, you know, into the VM where peace something that you definitely would not have seen under the old emcee Federation model. So Michael Dell, absolutely having his strong footprint here. Dave's done a lot of analysis talking about things like Pivotal getting pulled in and like so many different acquisitions, Pivotal came out of'em wear and, you know, carbon black Boston based companies so many different pieces here to get them talking about applications and where Veum, where the company sits in this multi cloud world where they're trying to be, you know, maintain their relationship with us. >> Let's get into the analysis on the whole ecosystems. I really want to dig into the work. Dave, you didn't and the team did. But let's go through the keynote first. So my personal opinion was it felt like, um, I'll give him a C plus Pat because it just didn't have a lot of meat. In my opinion, it felt like it was too much tech for good, although super important to have that mission driven stuff I think is really valuable as the market tends to look >> at tech >> as bad actors. I thought that was addressing. That was a positive thing, but it felt too much. I didn't see a lot of specifics. It felt do is and David, if they were hiding something, they were putting a lot of it didn't seem like there's a lot of substance coming out specifically around how Kubernetes was going to be impacted. Specifically, how Cooper is going to sit within the VM where ecosystem products specifically I just didn't feel like the product side was there. >> Well, you know what? I'll say it, John and General, I agree with you because Day one usually is here is the company vision. And if the vision is kubernetes, well, we've been hearing kubernetes for a bunch of years. Kubernetes is not the answer. Kubernetes is an enable ionizing technology job. Ada, who we up on stage? You know, we had him on the Cuban. He's like, look committed. This is not a magic layer. It's this thin layer that's gonna help us go between clouds. Getting into some of their future projects is something I usually would expect on Day two, the vision of V. M. Whereas a company, it feels like we're in that transition from who do you want a big tech for? Good? That that's great stuff. You know, Pat has a long history of talking about, you know, that moral compass that he has and wants the company to live. That which is a good change from many of the Silicon Valley companies. But, you know, I didn't get a strong feel for their vision and it was not >> a conservative. They didn't want to actually put a position down there because I think everyone in the hallway that I talked to wants to know how Cooper is gonna impact the sphere for instance, is gonna change the makeup of the sphere. And what's the impact on the product side the head that stat about bare metal being 8%. I was like, a little bit biased. Maybe there, So are they. They tiptoeing. Dave, you think? I mean, the spend numbers show that if you could just hold the line for 24 months and the new trends won't take away from that license, I mean, is it a tactical thing? Or do you think that here's the >> thing? I want to go back? I do want to give'em where? Props on one thing and you've used this term to If you go back to 8 4009 Paul Maritz talked about. We're building the software mainframe and passed them pretty consistent about that they used, they said, Any workload, any app? What's different today than back then is, he said, any workload, any up any cloud. Really. Cloud wasn't as much of a factor back then, but that vision has been fairly consistent it to you. Answer your question, Veum. We're spending remains strong, you know they're spending data that we shared with the GT R on silicon angle yesterday and today is that 41% of the VM were installed. Base is going to spend Maurine the second half of 2019 and only 7% are going to spend less. Okay, that's a real positive. But at the same time, the data clearly shows that cloud is negatively impacting VM wear spend and so that's a real threat. So multi club Pat said today technologists who Master Master Multi Cloud will own the next decade. He's talking to his audience. I'm not sure I agree with that. How much you're mastering Multi Cloud is what's gonna be the determining factor to own the next decade. >> Well, I'm stumped. Stick with my position. That multi cloud is not a reality. I think it's really more overhyped, and our actually just started to be hyped and probably will be then over hypes. And then seven years from now we'll start seeing multiple clouds truly interoperable. But I think multi cloud is we find on the Cuba simply enterprises have multiple vendors and multiple environments that happen to be those vendors have cloud, so I don't think it actually is an operating model yet. But again, just like on the Cube 2012 stew. We talked about hybrid Cloud. I called. I asked, yes. When was it a halfway house of the weigh station? He had a connection. >> So gassy. So, John, here's what I say. Number one is customers today absolutely have multiple clouds. But for multi cloud, to be a reality multi cloud must be greater than the sum of just the piece is that it's made up today and absolutely were not there. Today. VM wear has a strong reason why it should be at the center of that discussion. But they're gonna be right at loggerheads with Red Hat and Microsoft and Google and Cisco in that kind of debate at the multi cloud >> and we had, we had a story on our special report on silicon angle dot com. Check it out. It's called Coping With Multi Cloud. Were coping was by design. Coping as a mechanism used to deal with uncertainty. Coping strategies is what CEOs are going to deal with. But read that post. But in it I kind of see. I mean, I kind of agree and disagree. We have two perspectives, Dave developing. You want to get your thoughts butts do on this C I ose that come from a traditional I t background tend to like multi vendor things because they know they don't want lock. And they're afraid if you then swing to the progressive side si SOS, for instance, who are have a gun to their head in terms of security, they're all saying no, we're betting on one cloud and we'll have backup clouds, but our development staff is gonna build stacks. Have AP eyes, and we'll share those AP ice to our suppliers. Cloud vendors are saying Support our specs. So to spectrums the old school I t. Guys saying Multi vendor equals multi cloud. And then then, on the other end, See says to say, I'm gonna build technology and build a stack, exposed FBI's and let the clouds support my my tooling that not the other way around your thoughts. I >> pulled a quote in my piece That's on Silicon angle as well. From David. If lawyer and he was defining a hybrid multi cloud, he said, any application of application service can run on any note of the hybrid cloud without rewriting re compiling a re testing. My argument would be you're never gonna have that North Star without a high degree of homogeneity. And there's three examples of high degrees of homogeneity in hybrid Cloud. Today it's azure stack. It's clouded customer, and it's outposts. You're so this idea that we're gonna have this diverse set of clouds and yet they're all gonna run is one to me. I ask, Is it technically feasible? And is it Is it practical? >> Well, Steve, Steve Harry was on his Hey had announced the signal. FX has come. Portfolio can be sold on a big deal to split when he was on The Cube with me last week and he said one of them looking back on the 10 years that 1 may be M where great was virtual ization allowed for massive efficiencies and improvements without rewriting the apse. The question today's point is, is that a reality? Can what's next? So that that next gain that's not gonna require people to rewrite their APs >> well and that actually not rewriting the axes where VM or has its strength. Because, you know, I I made a joke during the keynote. It was like you have a V M insert magic. Congratulations. You now have a cloud workload because I just did. VM were cloud and it's the same app. But on the other hand, that's actually been my biggest dig on V M. Where is the long pole? In the tent and modernization is modernizing wraps. And that is that Tom Zoo that Veum were announced. They're taking bit Nami and pivotal because we do need to modernize the application. If you have an application, you've been running long enough that your users are complaining about it. We need to modernize that. VM wear has not been much of enabler of that pivotal. Yes, absolutely. That's what the cloud Foundry Labs, the pivotal Labs has been doing for years. It is a tough thing to do. That's what the developers we hear it Amazon. They're building new abs. I don't hear modern building new app at VM where, but they are moving in that >> direct question for you guys and John you in particular, but also used to as well followed AWS probably more closely than any two people I know, Pat said. Strength, lies and differences, not similarities. I've noted many differences in philosophy between A. W S and V M. where they're both winning in the market place. We know a divorce is growing much faster, but a divorce doesn't believe in multi cloud. A Devil's doesn't believe security is broken. That's that's VM wears narrative VM where says it wants to be the best infrastructure and develop our software company. That's kind of like eight of us is the platform for that. They both want to be the security cloud, and and VM were said today they have 10,000 cloud data centers, and I'm guessing that Andy Jassy wouldn't think that many of those data centers are cloud data centers. Your thoughts on the differences between between A. W S s philosophy and VM wears narrative. And can they both? Is there enough market for them both to win? >> Well, it's strikingly different. I mean, AWS is just in a breed of its own. VM wears hedging and playing there their bets. They're kind of putting, you know, bets on each horse, right? Interesting enough in the cloud thing. There was no mention of Google Cloud. I didn't see that mentioned there. Andi was speculation. Wouldn't Oracle be great partnering with Google? That's not a rumor. I'm just kind of put it out there. That would be a good combination partnership, given the Oracle's cloud is failing miserably, I think v M. Where because of the operating leverage in the enterprise, has that operational layer down to me, Amazon is the model, the future, because they are clearly born with a dev ops mindset. They have an environment where developers can build applications and they could operate. It scale with all the efficiencies of operations. So I think cloud to foreigners were calling. It is all about having developers and operational excellence without a lot of disruption or re platforming. So I think that's where the differences are. You have company that have toe have to work with this world of legacy applications, and that requires first lift and shift, which doesn't become attractive. Then you add containers on the game changes. So I think container ization really was, I think, the seminal moment in the shift where where you got kubernetes and containers. So let the enterprise cloud. Native guys get in and have an operational framework that takes advantage of the horsepower of public cloud, which is computing storage, which is why we think networking and security will be the absolute focus areas for Cloud two point. Oh, and Amazon is just dominating the depth and the ops. And I don't think anyone is coming close. >> I'd love to hear your thoughts, too, but I just got caught. I don't think Oracles Cloud is failing miserably. I think it's I wouldn't say it that way. I think their infrastructures of service is irrelevant and the cloud is all about SAS. But just, you know, that's what I think. Waken debate that somebody >> has been great for the Oracle customers. But in terms of all metrics in terms of public and enterprise, cloud with multiple environments nonstarter. >> So there's a bit of a schism out there if you talk to customers. There are many customers when they deploy in Public Cloud, although uses, you know, compute storage and, like the identity management and that's it. And they'll stop and I talkto you con many customers that are using kubernetes so that if they want to hit the eject button, but they're all on Amazon today, so it's not like they're all fleeing Amazon or doing it. But we talked to lots of developers that are deep in aws they're using those service is they're using Lambda and they're building it. So how deep will they go? And that's where I look at this VM we're offering. And it's if I'm gonna take the sphere and extend that with kubernetes. I saw Cuba. Well, um, actually in the Twitter stream said it is, you know, cloud lock in to Dato is what we get if we do that. Because the whole reason VM were originally created called Foundry. So they didn't have to take that entire V's fear colonel and put it everywhere. So it's a nice bridge. That van, where has the partnership they have with AWS is a great strategy. But I still think it is a bridge to an ultimate solution where they'll still use the M where the embers not going anyway. But that shift of where my application live in what service is I do is going to change a lot over the next 3 to 5. >> Let's not lose sight, Dave, of where we are in the industry. I mean, we're at VM World 2019. We go to reinvents coming up. We kind of live in a tech bubble in the sense that all this stuff is all kind of great skating to where the puck is gonna be. But the reality is in most I tea shops, and again, I use ceases as a proxy in my mind, because they're in the cutting edge of all the real critical nature of security, of the impact that harm that could happen to a company. So I look at sea. So she's more of a canary in the coal mine for trends than the nutritional CEO. At this point, most enterprises are just trying to rationalize kubernetes, generally speaking like never mind, like making a centerpiece of their entire architecture. They're looking at their existing environment saying, Hey, I got V EMS that did great for me. Serve a consolidation enabled more efficiency, not rewriting code. Now what? I gotta do kubernetes and do all this other stuff. How do I suspect my VM with kubernetes? Is it on bare metal? So I think we're way ahead right now. In the narrative, I think the reality is that people catch up. That's where the proof is gonna come into. That's why the customer survey numbers are interesting. >> Keep keep. Townsend is set on the Cube VM, where moves at the speed of the CEO, so they're not moving too far ahead of them, but they are key heating up with them. >> Let me share some data to share some data so you could go to Silicon Angle. Look at the V M World 2019 90 spending survey containers, Cloud NSX and pivotal its data from Enterprise Technology Research that we analyzed. There's no evidence right now that Container's air hurting VM wear. But then that was the narrative that containers are gonna kill the M where but long term. There's real threats there. So that's what the pivotal acquisition, at least in part was about. I want to address the pivotal acquisition cause we haven't dug into it a little bit a cz, Much as I'd like to see. There's really three things there. One pivotal was struggling. You look at the stock price, you look at their buying patterns, you know the stock was down that not even close to their original AIPO price, so they wanted to get out of the public eye right now would not be on that 30 day shot clock. The second is it's a hedge on containers. And the third is it's a financial scheme. I mean, I'll call it that VM wears paying $800 million in cash for an asset that's worth $4 billion. How can that be? Well, they already owned 15% of pivotal there. Give. They're exchanging stock. So their trade trading paper to Adele in exchange for Dell's 70% ownership in Pivotal. So they pick up this asset, and it's basically a forced migration by Michael Del, who controls 96% of the voting shares. So there's all kinds of inside nuance going on there that nobody's really talked about it a >> great deal for Of'em. Where and Michael Dell? It's >> a very good deal for VM wear and Michael Dell. >> Let's unpack that are rapidly. >> Just did the one piece on that, right, because kubernetes it was the elephant, the room that was damaging what Pivotal was doing. VM were made a couple of acquisitions VM where needs to react at, so it made sense to pull out back in. Even if it does go against some of the original mission, that Cloud Foundry and Pivotal had to be able to be that cloud native without that full strong time, >> it's all about building apse, right? It's all about enabling developers. >> Let's on that note. Let's go around the horn and talk about what we expect from the emerald this year. And then we'll kick off three days of wall to wall coverage. I'll start, I expect. And I'm not looking for is how VM wear and its ecosystem and who's really deep in the ecosystem, who's kind of independent and neutral, what they're doing with their containers and kubernetes play. Because I think the container revolution that was started with Dr Absolutely is very relevant to the C i o and the Sea. So so and then how they're using data in that in their applications. So you know how VM Way wants to position themselves on the control plane, how that fits in the NSX. I think containers in the container ization is going to change. I think bare metal is gonna be a super important topic in the next couple of years. Dio I'm kind of swinging back to the my feeling that you know, hyper convergence what it did for server storage networking back when you were calling those those moves. I think that kind of hyper convergence mentality is coming up the stack, and I think Containers and the Kubernetes Chess Board will will play out. >> I think if you my feelings, if you don't own a public cloud, you better convince your customers in your ecosystem that the future is in our definition of cloud, which is multi cloud. And that's what this VM world to me is all about. >> Yeah, you know, Veum wears taking their software state and trying to live in all of those cloud world. So you know, V. Amar has 600,000 customers and they want to be the ones to educate them on the kubernetes containers. You know you're at modernization, but there's a lot of other places customers can learn about this. No one understand where VM wear really adds value beyond all of those pieces, because all the cloud platforms have their kubernetes. >> A lot of other places, like the public cloud. That's where all the action >> exactly comes back down the cloud 2.0 Dev and ops developers and operations all come together with software. Thank you. Breaking it down here for three days. Wall to wall coverage here in Moscow north to set celebrating our 10th year covering VM World. Thanks for watching stay with us from or action after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's theCUBE! Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host, Justin Warren, and this is theCUBE, live from the lobby of Moscone North here in San Francisco. The 10th year we've had theCUBE and happy to bring back two CUBE alums. Which, of course, in 2010 we didn't even have the idea of a CUBE alum, we were just gathering some friends, some industry experts. To my right is Jaspreet Singh, who's the founder and CEO of Druva. Sitting next to him is Kit Colbert, who's the Vice President CTO of the Cloud Platform Business Unit at VMware. Gentleman, thanks so much for joining us. >> Good morning. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, so Jaspreet, I remember talking to you when Druva was a new company and cloud native wasn't the thing that came to mind when we were talking about it. We've known for a long time how important data is, and protecting that and managing that, of course, is something the industry's been looking at a long time. But give us the update on kind of Druva and you brought along Kit, so we're going to be talking about some of the cool, cloud native multi-cloud modernization type things, how that fits in your world. >> Absolutely. If you think about the world, right? In 1998, say for a start, they would create a whole notion of size and no software and the whole picture, right? Since then applications went in size, then came developer tools which were in size, and now it's all about infrastructure and first your management which is getting to be a cloud native, public cloud orientated size world. To where Druva comes in. As the world gets more and more fragmented, the data gets more and more fragmented. The multiple versions of cloud are different parts of strategy. Data management has to get more and more centralized. Which is where Druva comes in and which is where me and Kit are together. I think as VMware build a strategy for multi-cloud. Pulling the whole VMC approach to multiple versions of public cloud. Druva is a great partner, to sort of bring the data management together. A single control plane to manage multiple versions of cloud deployment on a single plane. >> All right, great so Kit it sounds like VMC is the kind of key component work together. 'cause when I think at Druva, a lot of what I think of is SaaS. And SaaS isn't necessarily the first thing that I think of when I think of VMware, so... >> We're tryin' to get there, tryin' to get there Stu. >> Yeah, no but pull it together as to where your customers intersect. >> Yeah absolutely, so it's a great partnership and definitely really focused on rallying around VMware Cloud and native AWS. And the core idea there was that we could deliver a cloud service to our customers of our VMware infrastructure, right? And we'll become a SaaS company, transforming into that. And that's something that we've been very focused on strategically, right? And so VMware Cloud and AWS is really the first offering. But there's many more coming. So just earlier today we announced the availability of VMware Cloud on Dell EMC. This idea of bringing our cloud service, STDC as a service on premises, to customer data centers, to customer edge locations. And the cool part about it, as Jaspreet mentioned, is that this world is becoming more and more distributed and we're seeing that with just the number of STDCs and how they're proliferating everywhere and you do need that centralization in terms, from a management perspective in order to handle all that diversity. And so, that's the big focus for us, in terms of the infrastructure, kind of just the core compute, source, network but you then have to up-level and say, how do you think about the data? And that's really where this partnership comes in. >> Right, so Jaspreet so if I understand that correctly, what you're trying to do here is to provide one data management method, no matter where the data lives. So, I don't have to go and find one tiny thing for, oh okay, I've got this other weird bit in the corner here, that I need a special, dedicated data protection thing for, 'cause that's always difficult. Data protection is hard enough. I really don't need to have, oh how am I going to deal out of this particular thing? Oh, now I've got to go and get another tool. And learn how to use it, maintain it, keep everyone skilled in it. Well actually, I can just pick Druva and then I've solved that problem. >> That's right. I think we are more forward-looking, than backward-looking. So, what we're doing is, any new application comes into an enterprise. Think about, from a point of view of a new cloud, like a VMC, AWS deployment. If you're deploying, you know, a lot of new edge location or data centers or new cloud services, Druva's a perfect partner to bring data management, along with it. For a legacy application that you always had, you can keep your legacy vendor with you. Where it has a con wall, you can keep them as they remain in your enterprise. Bring Druva for the new applications at hence. All the new workload that are more cloud bound workload, is our core focus, hence the VMC partnership. >> Right, so does that mean I'll be able to use Druva wherever VMC is available? >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Because you're expanding how many places I can get VMC now, I've noticed. >> Yeah, very exciting. >> That's very interesting >> It is, yeah, and I think that's again, the beauty of the partnership, is that we're doing a ton of work to deliver VMC to more and more locations. We've partnered with AWS, and now we've got global coverage, almost all the regions by the end of this calendar year. And now with VMware Cloud on Dell EMC , we can go wherever the customer is. They essentially give us a street address, and we can deliver hardware there and then operate it remotely and they can take advantage of that. And the cool thing about it, that all comes up to this control plan that we have running in the cloud and this is how we can interact with Druva. They can have a few simple APIs they can manage via us to access all those workloads that are distributed all over the place. >> Think of public cloud. Public cloud is nothing but Amazon's, initially was a concept of Amazon applying retail to IT. You can buy a resource anywhere in the globe at a fixed price point at certain SLA. That's the promise of, public cloud promise of VMC to get same VMware experience wherever you go across the world same price point. Same promise with Druva . The same data you put anywhere, can be managed, predicted end-to-end, same policy, same price point across the globe. >> And people often forget that part of it, that we're technologists. So people like to look at that the speeds and feeds and what does the technology do but there's, when you're running a business is actually a lot more to it and pricing models and things that technologists sometimes find boring. I love a good spreadsheet but something as, a simple pricing model where I can understand it and I know what it's going to do for me, was when I spin up a brand new application and I understand how am I going to manage this over the long term, how am I going to protect it, and what's it going to do for the the ROI on that? And what's that going to look like in three years' time? Not just turning up the brand new project. What is the operational cost of that going to look like? These are the kinds of things that people, I think are starting to get a lot more used to now that they particularly with cloud it's a much more operational model. It's not a build model. It's, yes build is one part of it, but you also need to be able to run and manage it >> And think of what we call the world of two ransomwares. There is a ransomware when you're worried about a data breach or data loss and there's another ransomware we have to, your data production vendor or your hardware vendors say is, you know, give me five years of money up front with the promise to manage the data eventually. So in the public cloud world, it's pay-as-you-go on demand. You need a new application you spin up a new workload in VMC in AWS. You need data protection spin up right there and then, no pre-planning, pre-positioning, architecture reviews needed. >> And I think like, the great thing about Druva and what we're talking about here in this consistency of operations. How you're managing data, really goes into the whole strategy that VMware has around driving consistency across infrastructure as well. I think one of the big value propositions that we can help with is taking a lot of this very heterogeneous infrastructure with different capabilities, different hardware form factors and layering on our virtual infrastructure which simplifies a lot of that and delivering that consistent experience. And of course data management as we said is a key part of that experience. >> Yeah, you mentioned kind of the move of VMware towards being more of a SaaS player and working in those environments. One of the flags along that journey is VMware's always had a robust ecosystem. But in the cloud my understanding is you've released now a VMware Cloud Marketplace. Reminds me a little bit of a certain cloud provider that has a very well-known marketplace. Give us a little bit about it, and Jaspreet'll, of course tell us about the Druva piece of that. >> Yeah, absolutely. We're kind of really evolving our strategic aims. Historically we've looked at how do we really virtualize an entire data center? This concept of the software-defined data center. Really automating all that and driving great speed efficiency increases. And now as we've been talking about, we're in this world where you kind of have STDCs everywhere. On Prem, in the cloud, different public clouds. And so how do you really manage across all those? These are things we've been talking about. So the cloud marketplace fits into that whole concept in the sense that now we can give people one place to go to get easy access to both software and solutions from our partners as well as open source solutions, and these are things that come from the Bitnami acquisition that we recently did. So, the idea here is that we cannot make it super simple for customers to become aware of the different solutions to draw those consistent operations that exists on top of our platform and with our partners and then make it really easy for them to consume those as well >> And Druva's part of it. We were day one launch partner on the marketplace. Marketplace serves predominantly two purposes. One is, the ease of E-commerce, you can drive through a marketplace. Second, is the ease of integration. You have a prepackaged solution, which comes along with it. It's a whole beauty of cloud, exactly as I mentioned. We see cloud beyond technology. It's an E-commerce model most companies should adapt to. And as the part of the progress, our commitment is to be in marketplace day one. Druva is right now number one ISP globabally for AWS. So we understand the whole landscape of how E-commerce gets done on public cloud very very well, and we are super thrilled to be a partnership with VMC on the marketplace, the VMC Marketplace. >> It's another one of those important indicators. I think about VMware's Cloud journey. Cloud isn't a destination, it's not a location. It's a way of doing things-- >> Kit: It's a model, yep. >> So having this this marketplace way of consuming software and becoming far more like as you say, it's STDC, but with that software as a service on Earth. You can have STDC as a service. That's probably too many letters in that. >> We use that internally, yes the STDC, AAS (laughs). >> Seeing those features coming to VMware and the partners that you bring in to that ecosystem. And Stu and I we spoke before, it's like VMware is always been a great partner for everyone in that ecosystem and it does have a real ecosystem and we see it again this year at the show. That you have these partners who come in, and you're finding ways to make it easier for those integrations to happen in a nice, easy to consume way and customers like that. So the enterprise is a heterogeneous environment. If you just do one acquisition and all of a sudden, I've got two different ways of doing the same thing. So being able to have known trusted solutions to do that, where I don't have to spend ages and ages figuring out how to, how do I configure this? I don't actually make this do what I need it to do. It's like I'm trying to solve a customer problem. I'm not trying to build technology for its own sake for most of the customers. I just want something that works, and particular with data protection, I just want it to work. >> The owners aren't producing more back abutments. >> No, which, I don't think it should. it's kind of a shame. I used to be a back out man but we don't need anymore of those >> I think this is the idea. You talked in the beginning about this notion of service delivery and how can we take all these STDC's that we have out there that customers are running, and enhance their value and enhance the value to the customer's business by adding on these value-added services. So, I think that's one of the beauties of cloud marketplace is that they can very easily extend what they, customers can extend what they already have with these additional services. >> Jaspreet, VMware's been going through a lot of change. They've made acquisitions. I saw a number of announcements today, that I don't think I would have seen back in the EMC days of you know, some of the data protection solutions being baked into the platform. Tell us what it means to be a VMware partner today. >> I think it's great to see VMware innovating and making strong progress. I think in this world of constant change it can either be in the front end of, you can never never over-innovate. You can be in the front end of, being in the edge, driving change, driving Innovation, driving chain industry or taking a back seat and then be in HPE. So I think I love to see VMware what they're doing and making all the progress and great to be a partner in this change, in this journey to see as a strong partner. >> Yeah, I mean, we're not standing still and it's funny like. So one of the biggest announcements today in my mind is Project Pacific, this re-architecture of vSphere to building Kubernetes into the fabric of what vSphere is. And it's funny when you start looking at that because I think folks have a concept in their mind, of what vSphere is, right? It's VM-based and I have worked with it in certain ways. It's got a certain API or interface and we're fundamentally changing all that. We're rethinking, as I mentioned how we deliver our STDC's, our customers consume them. And so I think that notion of being at the forefront, we're very committed to that >> Kit, I'm glad you broke it up 'cause I'm still having a little trouble thinking through it. Now on the one hand, every company is going through this, we're going to containerize everything, we're going to make it microservices, every infrastructure component, now has that fundamental building block. Docker had a ripple effect on what happens, similar to what VMware had a decade before. But I look at Project Pacific and I'm like well, when Cloud Foundry was originally created, it was, we want back then we called it Paz, but I want a thin layer, and I don't want to pull VMware along for that necessarily. It might fit underneath it, but it might not. So help us understand as to like, how is this not like, a lock into what, you're going to use vSphere and you're going to have your license agreement with us every year and now you're going to be locked into this because this is your Kubernetes platform. >> Yeah, that's a good question. So look, I actually think it drives more openness because Kubernetes is an open platform and we're integrating that in, and we're leveraging the Kubernetes API. And so, the vSphere will have two northbound APIs, one of which is based on the existing VM-based one and the other one which is Kubernetes. And so partially, it's we're actually opening it up. The cool thing about what we can do with Pacific is that we have what, 300, 400000 customers running vSphere. They have an aggregate around 70 million workloads. We're able to take that massive footprint and move it forward almost overnight by building Kubernetes into vSphere. And so the way I look at it, is this is a huge force multiplier for our customers, this ability to move their fleet of applications forward at basically, zero cost, very little cost. And while leveraging all the tools and technologies, they already have. This is another good thing, that our partnership with Druva as well, is that because the way we've architected this, all the tools that use vSphere today and the vSphere's APIs, those APIs will see the Kubernetes pods and things that are provisioned and those tools can operate on those pods just like they can on VMs. And those things just work out of the box. So like if a customer gets specific and uses Druva, and they start provisioning some pods, into Kubernetes on vSphere, Druva will see those they can manage the data, it's all automatic. And of course, Druva can do extra cool things, like even get deeper integration there. But the point is that we've got, you know thousands of partners again who's out of the box that stuff will work. Now is that lock in? No, I actually think that because people are switching over to Kubernetes, they now have the ability to move that to a different Kubernetes environment if they so see fit. Anyway, so that's my quick answer >> Think about the world. Virtualization is practically free right now. What you pay for is the enterprise, once you pay for abstraction level, remove complexity, make my scale happen, and this is where you pay for the whole VMware stack. When the customer start deploying containers, they haven't seen the complexity they would see at scale. When you see the complexity in management and data plane and insecurity plane, then they would need the ecosystem of providers to solve those complexities at scale but as we're a think if Kubernetes takes off and production application, right now it's mostly dev and test, it goes to a production application, the world would need something which is a much more robust sort of control planes to manage it end-to-end >> Yeah, I mean, we solved a lot of the hard problems around running applications in production. And I think what we're doing with Pacific, is enabling all those cool innovations to work not just for existing apps but for new Kubernetes-based apps as well. >> All right, well Kit and Jaspreet, thank you so much. A lot of new things for everybody to dig into and I always appreciate both of you and your teams are very responsive and dig in. Be looking forward to more blog posts and more podcasts from your team and the like, to go into it more. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman. We have tons more coverage here at VMworld 2019. Thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)