(upbeat music) >> Hi everyone. Welcome back to this Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Got a great conversation around Cloud Native, Cloud Native Journey, how enterprises are looking at Cloud Native and putting it all together. And it comes down to operations, developer productivity, and security. It's the hottest topic in technology. We got Chris Jones here in the studio, director of Product Management for Platform9. Chris, thanks for coming in. >> Hey, thanks. >> So when we always chat about, when we're at KubeCon. KubeConEU is coming up and in a few, in a few months, the number one conversation is developer productivity. And the developers are driving all the standards. It's interesting to see how they just throw everything out there and whatever gets adopted ends up becoming the standard, not the old school way of kind of getting stuff done. So that's cool. Security Kubernetes and Containers are all kind of now that next level. So you're starting to see the early adopters moving to the mainstream. Enterprises, a variety of different approaches. You guys are at the center of this. We've had a couple conversations with your CEO and your tech team over there. What are you seeing? You're building the products. What's the core product focus right now for Platform9? What are you guys aiming for? >> The core is that blend of enabling your infrastructure and PlatformOps or DevOps teams to be able to go fast and run in a stable environment, but at the same time enable developers. We don't want people going back to what I've been calling Shadow IT 2.0. It's, hey, I've been told to do something. I kicked off this Container initiative. I need to run my software somewhere. I'm just going to go figure it out. We want to keep those people productive. At the same time we want to enable velocity for our operations teams, be it PlatformOps or DevOps. >> Take us through in your mind and how you see the industry rolling out this Cloud Native journey. Where do you see customers out there? Because DevOps have been around, DevSecOps is rocking, you're seeing AI, hot trend now. Developers are still in charge. Is there a change to the infrastructure of how developers get their coding done and the infrastructure, setting up the DevOps is key, but when you add the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise, what changes? What is the, what is the, I guess what is the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise these days? >> The Cloud Native journey or the change? When- >> Let's start with the, let's start with what they want to do. What's the goal and then how does that happen? >> I think the goal is that promise land. Increased resiliency, better scalability, and overall reduced costs. I've gone from physical to virtual that gave me a higher level of density, packing of resources. I'm moving to Containers. I'm removing that OS layer again. I'm getting a better density again, but all of a sudden I'm running Kubernetes. What does that, what does that fundamentally do to my operations? Does it magically give me scalability and resiliency? Or do I need to change what I'm running and how it's running so it fits that infrastructure? And that's the reality, is you can't just take a Container and drop it into Kubernetes and say, hey, I'm now Cloud Native. I've got reduced cost, or I've got better resiliency. There's things that your engineering teams need to do to make sure that application is a Cloud Native. And then there's what I think is one of the largest shifts of virtual machines to containers. When I was in the world of application performance monitoring, we would see customers saying, well, my engineering team have this Java app, and they said it needs a VM with 12 gig of RAM and eight cores, and that's what we gave it. But it's running slow. I'm working with the application team and you can see it's running slow. And they're like, well, it's got all of its resources. One of those nice features of virtualization is over provisioning. So the infrastructure team would say, well, we gave it, we gave it all a RAM it needed. And what's wrong with that being over provisioned? It's like, well, Java expects that RAM to be there. Now all of a sudden, when you move to the world of containers, what we've got is that's not a set resource limit, really is like it used to be in a VM, right? When you set it for a container, your application teams really need to be paying attention to your resource limits and constraints within the world of Kubernetes. So instead of just being able to say, hey, I'm throwing over the fence and now it's just going to run on a VM, and that VMs got everything it needs. It's now really running on more, much more of a shared infrastructure where limits and constraints are going to impact the neighbors. They are going to impact who's making that decision around resourcing. Because that Kubernetes concept of over provisioning and the virtualization concept of over provisioning are not the same. So when I look at this problem, it's like, well, what changed? Well, I'll do my scale tests as an application developer and tester, and I'd see what resources it needs. I asked for that in the VM, that sets the high watermark, job's done. Well, Kubernetes, it's no longer a VM, it's a Kubernetes manifest. And well, who owns that? Who's writing it? Who's setting those limits? To me, that should be the application team. But then when it goes into operations world, they're like, well, that's now us. Can we change those? So it's that amalgamation of the two that is saying, I'm a developer. I used to pay attention, but now I need to pay attention. And an infrastructure person saying, I used to just give 'em what they wanted, but now I really need to know what they've wanted, because it's going to potentially have a catastrophic impact on what I'm running. >> So what's the impact for the developer? Because, infrastructure's code is what everybody wants. The developer just wants to get the code going and they got to pay attention to all these things, or don't they? Is that where you guys come in? How do you guys see the problem? Actually scope the problem that you guys solve? 'Cause I think you're getting at I think the core issue here, which is, I've got Kubernetes, I've got containers, I've got developer productivity that I want to focus on. What's the problem that you guys solve? >> Platform operation teams that are adopting Cloud Native in their environment, they've got that steep learning curve of Kubernetes plus this fundamental change of how an app runs. What we're doing is taking away the burden of needing to operate and run Kubernetes and giving them the choice of the flexibility of infrastructure and location. Be that an air gap environment like a, let's say a telco provider that needs to run a containerized network function and containerized workloads for 5G. That's one thing that we can deploy and achieve in a completely inaccessible environment all the way through to Platform9 running traditionally as SaaS, as we were born, that's remotely managing and controlling your Kubernetes environments on-premise AWS. That hybrid cloud experience that could be also Bare Metal, but it's our platform running your environments with our support there, 24 by seven, that's proactively reaching out. So it's removing a lot of that burden and the complications that come along with operating the environment and standing it up, which means all of a sudden your DevOps and platform operations teams can go and work with your engineers and application developers and say, hey, let's get, let's focus on the stuff that, that we need to be focused on, which is running our business and providing a service to our customers. Not figuring out how to upgrade a Kubernetes cluster, add new nodes, and configure all of the low level. >> I mean there are, that's operations that just needs to work. And sounds like as they get into the Cloud Native kind of ops, there's a lot of stuff that kind of goes wrong. Or you go, oops, what do we buy into? Because the CIOs, let's go, let's go Cloud Native. We want to, we got to get set up for the future. We're going to be Cloud Native, not just lift and shift and we're going to actually build it out right. Okay, that sounds good. And when we have to actually get done. >> Chris: Yeah. >> You got to spin things up and stand up the infrastructure. What specifically use case do you guys see that emerges for Platform9 when people call you up and you go talk to customers and prospects? What's the one thing or use case or cases that you guys see that you guys solve the best? >> So I think one of the, one of the, I guess new use cases that are coming up now, everyone's talking about economic pressures. I think the, the tap blows open, just get it done. CIO is saying let's modernize, let's use the cloud. Now all of a sudden they're recognizing, well wait, we're spending a lot of money now. We've opened that tap all the way, what do we do? So now they're looking at ways to control that spend. So we're seeing that as a big emerging trend. What we're also sort of seeing is people looking at their data centers and saying, well, I've got this huge legacy environment that's running a hypervisor. It's running VMs. Can we still actually do what we need to do? Can we modernize? Can we start this Cloud Native journey without leaving our data centers, our co-locations? Or if I do want to reduce costs, is that that thing that says maybe I'm repatriating or doing a reverse migration? Do I have to go back to my data center or are there other alternatives? And we're seeing that trend a lot. And our roadmap and what we have in the product today was specifically built to handle those, those occurrences. So we brought in KubeVirt in terms of virtualization. We have a long legacy doing OpenStack and private clouds. And we've worked with a lot of those users and customers that we have and asked the questions, what's important? And today, when we look at the world of Cloud Native, you can run virtualization within Kubernetes. So you can, instead of running two separate platforms, you can have one. So all of a sudden, if you're looking to modernize, you can start on that new infrastructure stack that can run anywhere, Kubernetes, and you can start bringing VMs over there as you are containerizing at the same time. So now you can keep your application operations in one environment. And this also helps if you're trying to reduce costs. If you really are saying, we put that Dev environment in AWS, we've got a huge amount of velocity out of it now, can we do that elsewhere? Is there a co-location we can go to? Is there a provider that we can go to where we can run that infrastructure or run the Kubernetes, but not have to run the infrastructure? >> It's going to be interesting too, when you see the Edge come online, you start, we've got Mobile World Congress coming up, KubeCon events we're going to be at, the conversation is not just about public cloud. And you guys obviously solve a lot of do-it-yourself implementation hassles that emerge when people try to kind of stand up their own environment. And we hear from developers consistency between code, managing new updates, making sure everything is all solid so they can go fast. That's the goal. And that, and then people can get standardized on that. But as you get public cloud and do it yourself, kind of brings up like, okay, there's some gaps there as the architecture changes to be more distributed computing, Edge, on-premises cloud, it's cloud operations. So that's cool for DevOps and Cloud Native. How do you guys differentiate from say, some the public cloud opportunities and the folks who are doing it themselves? How do you guys fit in that world and what's the pitch or what's the story? >> The fit that we look at is that third alternative. Let's get your team focused on what's high value to your business and let us deliver that public cloud experience on your infrastructure or in the public cloud, which gives you that ability to still be flexible if you want to make choices to run consistently for your developers in two different locations. So as I touched on earlier, instead of saying go figure out Kubernetes, how do you upgrade a hundred worker nodes in place upgrade. We've solved that problem. That's what we do every single day of the week. Don't go and try to figure out how to upgrade a cluster and then upgrade all of the, what I call Kubernetes friends, your core DNSs, your metrics server, your Kubernetes dashboard. These are all things that we package, we test, we version. So when you click upgrade, we've already handled that entire process. So it's saying don't have your team focused on that lower level piece of work. Get them focused on what is important, which is your business services. >> Yeah, the infrastructure and getting that stood up. I mean, I think the thing that's interesting, if you look at the market right now, you mentioned cost savings and recovery, obviously kind of a recession. I mean, people are tightening their belts for sure. I don't think the digital transformation and Cloud Native spend is going to plummet. It's going to probably be on hold and be squeezed a little bit. But to your point, people are refactoring looking at how to get the best out of what they got. It's not just open the tap of spend the cash like it used to be. Yeah, a couple months, even a couple years ago. So okay, I get that. But then you look at the what's coming, AI. You're seeing all the new data infrastructure that's coming. The containers, Kubernetes stuff, got to get stood up pretty quickly and it's got to be reliable. So to your point, the teams need to get done with this and move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> 'Cause there's more coming. I mean, there's a lot coming for the apps that are building in Data Native, AI-Native, Cloud Native. So it seems that this Kubernetes thing needs to get solved. Is that kind of what you guys are focused on right now? >> So, I mean to use a customer, we have a customer that's in AI/ML and they run their platform at customer sites and that's hardware bound. You can't run AI machine learning on anything anywhere. Well, with Platform9 they can. So we're enabling them to deliver services into their customers that's running their AI/ML platform in their customer's data centers anywhere in the world on hardware that is purpose-built for running that workload. They're not Kubernetes experts. That's what we are. We're bringing them that ability to focus on what's important and just delivering their business services whilst they're enabling our team. And our 24 by seven proactive management are always on assurance to keep that up and running for them. So when something goes bump at the night at 2:00am, our guys get woken up. They're the ones that are reaching out to the customer saying, your environments have a problem, we're taking these actions to fix it. Obviously sometimes, especially if it is running on Bare Metal, there's things you can't do remotely. So you might need someone to go and do that. But even when that happens, you're not by yourself. You're not sitting there like I did when I worked for a bank in one of my first jobs, three o'clock in the morning saying, wow, our end of day processing is stuck. Who else am I waking up? Right? >> Exactly, yeah. Got to get that cash going. But this is a great use case. I want to get to the customer. What do some of the successful customers say to you for the folks watching that aren't yet a customer of Platform9, what are some of the accolades and comments or anecdotes that you guys hear from customers that you have? >> It just works, which I think is probably one of the best ones you can get. Customers coming back and being able to show to their business that they've delivered growth, like business growth and productivity growth and keeping their organization size the same. So we started on our containerization journey. We went to Kubernetes. We've deployed all these new workloads and our operations team is still six people. We're doing way more with growth less, and I think that's also talking to the strength that we're bringing, 'cause we're, we're augmenting that team. They're spending less time on the really low level stuff and automating a lot of the growth activity that's involved. So when it comes to being able to grow their business, they can just focus on that, not- >> Well you guys do the heavy lifting, keep on top of the Kubernetes, make sure that all the versions are all done. Everything's stable and consistent so they can go on and do the build out and provide their services. That seems to be what you guys are best at. >> Correct, correct. >> And so what's on the roadmap? You have the product, direct product management, you get the keys to the kingdom. What is, what is the focus? What's your focus right now? Obviously Kubernetes is growing up, Containers. We've been hearing a lot at the last KubeCon about the security containers is getting better. You've seen verification, a lot more standards around some things. What are you focused on right now for at a product over there? >> Edge is a really big focus for us. And I think in Edge you can look at it in two ways. The mantra that I drive is Edge must be remote. If you can't do something remotely at the Edge, you are using a human being, that's not Edge. Our Edge management capabilities and being in the market for over two years are a hundred percent remote. You want to stand up a store, you just ship the server in there, it gets racked, the rest of it's remote. Imagine a store manager in, I don't know, KFC, just plugging in the server, putting in the ethernet cable, pressing the power button. The rest of all that provisioning for that Cloud Native stack, Kubernetes, KubeVirt for virtualization is done remotely. So we're continuing to focus on that. The next piece that is related to that is allowing people to run Platform9 SaaS in their data centers. So we do ag app today and we've had a really strong focus on telecommunications and the containerized network functions that come along with that. So this next piece is saying, we're bringing what we run as SaaS into your data center, so then you can run it. 'Cause there are many people out there that are saying, we want these capabilities and we want everything that the Platform9 control plane brings and simplifies. But unfortunately, regulatory compliance reasons means that we can't leverage SaaS. So they might be using a cloud, but they're saying that's still our infrastructure. We're still closed that network down, or they're still on-prem. So they're two big priorities for us this year. And that on-premise experiences is paramount, even to the point that we will be delivering a way that when you run an on-premise, you can still say, wait a second, well I can send outbound alerts to Platform9. So their support team can still be proactively helping me as much as they could, even though I'm running Platform9s control plane. So it's sort of giving that blend of two experiences. They're big, they're big priorities. And the third pillar is all around virtualization. It's saying if you have economic pressures, then I think it's important to look at what you're spending today and realistically say, can that be reduced? And I think hypervisors and virtualization is something that should be looked at, because if you can actually reduce that spend, you can bring in some modernization at the same time. Let's take some of those nos that exist that are two years into their five year hardware life cycle. Let's turn that into a Cloud Native environment, which is enabling your modernization in place. It's giving your engineers and application developers the new toys, the new experiences, and then you can start running some of those virtualized workloads with KubeVirt, there. So you're reducing cost and you're modernizing at the same time with your existing infrastructure. >> You know Chris, the topic of this content series that we're doing with you guys is finding the right path, trusting the right path to Cloud Native. What does that mean? I mean, if you had to kind of summarize that phrase, trusting the right path to Cloud Native, what does that mean? It mean in terms of architecture, is it deployment? Is it operations? What's the underlying main theme of that quote? What's the, what's? How would you talk to a customer and say, what does that mean if someone said, "Hey, what does that right path mean?" >> I think the right path means focusing on what you should be focusing on. I know I've said it a hundred times, but if your entire operations team is trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of Kubernetes and getting three months into a journey and discovering, ah, I need Metrics Server to make something function. I want to use Horizontal Pod Autoscaler or Vertical Pod Autoscaler and I need this other thing, now I need to manage that. That's not the right path. That's literally learning what other people have been learning for the last five, seven years that have been focused on Kubernetes solely. So the why- >> There's been a lot of grind. People have been grinding it out. I mean, that's what you're talking about here. They've been standing up the, when Kubernetes started, it was all the promise. >> Chris: Yep. >> And essentially manually kind of getting in in the weeds and configuring it. Now it's matured up. They want stability. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Not everyone can get down and dirty with Kubernetes. It's not something that people want to generally do unless you're totally into it, right? Like I mean, I mean ops teams, I mean, yeah. You know what I mean? It's not like it's heavy lifting. Yeah, it's important. Just got to get it going. >> Yeah, I mean if you're deploying with Platform9, your Ops teams can tinker to their hearts content. We're completely compliant upstream Kubernetes. You can go and change an API server flag, let's go and mess with the scheduler, because we want to. You can still do that, but don't, don't have your team investing in all this time to figure it out. It's been figured out. >> John: Got it. >> Get them focused on enabling velocity for your business. >> So it's not build, but run. >> Chris: Correct? >> Or run Kubernetes, not necessarily figure out how to kind of get it all, consume it out. >> You know we've talked to a lot of customers out there that are saying, "I want to be able to deliver a service to my users." Our response is, "Cool, let us run it. You consume it, therefore deliver it." And we're solving that in one hit versus figuring out how to first run it, then operate it, then turn that into a consumable service. >> So the alternative Platform9 is what? They got to do it themselves or use the Cloud or what's the, what's the alternative for the customer for not using Platform9? Hiring more people to kind of work on it? What's the? >> People, building that kind of PaaS experience? Something that I've been very passionate about for the past year is looking at that world of sort of GitOps and what that means. And if you go out there and you sort of start asking the question what's happening? Just generally with Kubernetes as well and GitOps in that scope, then you'll hear some people saying, well, I'm making it PaaS, because Kubernetes is too complicated for my developers and we need to give them something. There's some great material out there from the likes of Intuit and Adobe where for two big contributors to Argo and the Argo projects, they almost have, well they do have, different experiences. One is saying, we went down the PaaS route and it failed. The other one is saying, well we've built a really stable PaaS and it's working. What are they trying to do? They're trying to deliver an outcome to make it easy to use and consume Kubernetes. So you could go out there and say, hey, I'm going to build a Kubernetes cluster. Sounds like Argo CD is a great way to expose that to my developers so they can use Kubernetes without having to use Kubernetes and start automating things. That is an approach, but you're going to be going completely open source and you're going to have to bring in all the individual components, or you could just lay that, lay it down, and consume it as a service and not have to- >> And mentioned to it. They were the ones who kind of brought that into the open. >> They did. Inuit is the primary contributor to the Argo set of products. >> How has that been received in the market? I mean, they had the event at the Computer History Museum last fall. What's the momentum there? What's the big takeaway from that project? >> Growth. To me, growth. I mean go and track the stars on that one. It's just, it's growth. It's unlocking machine learning. Argo workflows can do more than just make things happen. Argo CD I think the approach they're taking is, hey let's make this simple to use, which I think can be lost. And I think credit where credit's due, they're really pushing to bring in a lot of capabilities to make it easier to work with applications and microservices on Kubernetes. It's not just that, hey, here's a GitOps tool. It can take something from a Git repo and deploy it and maybe prioritize it and help you scale your operations from that perspective. It's taking a step back and saying, well how did we get to production in the first place? And what can be done down there to help as well? I think it's growth expansion of features. They had a huge release just come out in, I think it was 2.6, that brought in things that as a product manager that I don't often look at like really deep technical things and say wow, that's powerful. But they have, they've got some great features in that release that really do solve real problems. >> And as the product, as the product person, who's the target buyer for you? Who's the customer? Who's making that? And you got decision maker, influencer, and recommender. Take us through the customer persona for you guys. >> So that Platform Ops, DevOps space, right, the people that need to be delivering Containers as a service out to their organization. But then it's also important to say, well who else are our primary users? And that's developers, engineers, right? They shouldn't have to say, oh well I have access to a Kubernetes cluster. Do I have to use kubectl or do I need to go find some other tool? No, they can just log to Platform9. It's integrated with your enterprise id. >> They're the end customer at the end of the day, they're the user. >> Yeah, yeah. They can log in. And they can see the clusters you've given them access to as a Platform Ops Administrator. >> So job well done for you guys. And your mind is the developers are moving 'em fast, coding and happy. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. >> And and from a customer standpoint, you reduce the maintenance cost, because you keep the Ops smoother, so you got efficiency and maintenance costs kind of reduced or is that kind of the benefits? >> Yeah, yep, yeah. And at two o'clock in the morning when things go inevitably wrong, they're not there by themselves, and we're proactively working with them. >> And that's the uptime issue. >> That is the uptime issue. And Cloud doesn't solve that, right? Everyone experienced that Clouds can go down, entire regions can go offline. That's happened to all Cloud providers. And what do you do then? Kubernetes isn't your recovery plan. It's part of it, right, but it's that piece. >> You know Chris, to wrap up this interview, I will say that "theCUBE" is 12 years old now. We've been to OpenStack early days. We had you guys on when we were covering OpenStack and now Cloud has just been booming. You got AI around the corner, AI Ops, now you got all this new data infrastructure, it's just amazing Cloud growth, Cloud Native, Security Native, Cloud Native, Data Native, AI Native. It's going to be all, this is the new app environment, but there's also existing infrastructure. So going back to OpenStack, rolling our own cloud, building your own cloud, building infrastructure cloud, in a cloud way, is what the pioneers have done. I mean this is what we're at. Now we're at this scale next level, abstracted away and make it operational. It seems to be the key focus. We look at CNCF at KubeCon and what they're doing with the cloud SecurityCon, it's all about operations. >> Chris: Yep, right. >> Ops and you know, that's going to sound counterintuitive 'cause it's a developer open source environment, but you're starting to see that Ops focus in a good way. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Infrastructure as code way. >> Chris: Yep. >> What's your reaction to that? How would you summarize where we are in the industry relative to, am I getting, am I getting it right there? Is that the right view? What am I missing? What's the current state of the next level, NextGen infrastructure? >> It's a good question. When I think back to sort of late 2019, I sort of had this aha moment as I saw what really truly is delivering infrastructure as code happening at Platform9. There's an open source project Ironic, which is now also available within Kubernetes that is Metal Kubed that automates Bare Metal as code, which means you can go from an empty server, lay down your operating system, lay down Kubernetes, and you've just done everything delivered to your customer as code with a Cloud Native platform. That to me was sort of the biggest realization that I had as I was moving into this industry was, wait, it's there. This can be done. And the evolution of tooling and operations is getting to the point where that can be achieved and it's focused on by a number of different open source projects. Not just Ironic and and Metal Kubed, but that's a huge win. That is truly getting your infrastructure. >> John: That's an inflection point, really. >> Yeah. >> If you think about it, 'cause that's one of the problems. We had with the Bare Metal piece was the automation and also making it Cloud Ops, cloud operations. >> Right, yeah. I mean, one of the things that I think Ironic did really well was saying let's just treat that piece of Bare Metal like a Cloud VM or an instance. If you got a problem with it, just give the person using it or whatever's using it, a new one and reimage it. Just tell it to reimage itself and it'll just (snaps fingers) go. You can do self-service with it. In Platform9, if you log in to our SaaS Ironic, you can go and say, I want that physical server to myself, because I've got a giant workload, or let's turn it into a Kubernetes cluster. That whole thing is automated. To me that's infrastructure as code. I think one of the other important things that's happening at the same time is we're seeing GitOps, we're seeing things like Terraform. I think it's important for organizations to look at what they have and ask, am I using tools that are fit for tomorrow or am I using tools that are yesterday's tools to solve tomorrow's problems? And when especially it comes to modernizing infrastructure as code, I think that's a big piece to look at. >> Do you see Terraform as old or new? >> I see Terraform as old. It's a fantastic tool, capable of many great things and it can work with basically every single provider out there on the planet. It is able to do things. Is it best fit to run in a GitOps methodology? I don't think it is quite at that point. In fact, if you went and looked at Flux, Flux has ways that make Terraform GitOps compliant, which is absolutely fantastic. It's using two tools, the best of breeds, which is solving that tomorrow problem with tomorrow solutions. >> Is the new solutions old versus new. I like this old way, new way. I mean, Terraform is not that old and it's been around for about eight years or so, whatever. But HashiCorp is doing a great job with that. I mean, so okay with Terraform, what's the new address? Is it more complex environments? Because Terraform made sense when you had basic DevOps, but now it sounds like there's a whole another level of complexity. >> I got to say. >> New tools. >> That kind of amalgamation of that application into infrastructure. Now my app team is paying way more attention to that manifest file, which is what GitOps is trying to solve. Let's templatize things. Let's version control our manifest, be it helm, customize, or just a straight up Kubernetes manifest file, plain and boring. Let's get that version controlled. Let's make sure that we know what is there, why it was changed. Let's get some auditability and things like that. And then let's get that deployment all automated. So that's predicated on the cluster existing. Well why can't we do the same thing with the cluster, the inception problem. So even if you're in public cloud, the question is like, well what's calling that API to call that thing to happen? Where is that file living? How well can I manage that in a large team? Oh my God, something just changed. Who changed it? Where is that file? And I think that's one of big, the big pieces to be sold. >> Yeah, and you talk about Edge too and on-premises. I think one of the things I'm observing and certainly when DevOps was rocking and rolling and infrastructures code was like the real push, it was pretty much the public cloud, right? >> Chris: Yep. >> And you did Cloud Native and you had stuff on-premises. Yeah you did some lifting and shifting in the cloud, but the cool stuff was going in the public cloud and you ran DevOps. Okay, now you got on-premise cloud operation and Edge. Is that the new DevOps? I mean 'cause what you're kind of getting at with old new, old new Terraform example is an interesting point, because you're pointing out potentially that that was good DevOps back in the day or it still is. >> Chris: It is, I was going to say. >> But depending on how you define what DevOps is. So if you say, I got the new DevOps with public on-premise and Edge, that's just not all public cloud, that's essentially distributed Cloud Native. >> Correct. Is that the new DevOps in your mind or is that? How would you, or is that oversimplifying it? >> Or is that that term where everyone's saying Platform Ops, right? Has it shifted? >> Well you bring up a good point about Terraform. I mean Terraform is well proven. People love it. It's got great use cases and now there seems to be new things happening. We call things like super cloud emerging, which is multicloud and abstraction layers. So you're starting to see stuff being abstracted away for the benefits of moving to the next level, so teams don't get stuck doing the same old thing. They can move on. Like what you guys are doing with Platform9 is providing a service so that teams don't have to do it. >> Correct, yeah. >> That makes a lot of sense, So you just, now it's running and then they move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, right. >> So what is that next thing? >> I think Edge is a big part of that next thing. The propensity for someone to put up with a delay, I think it's gone. For some reason, we've all become fairly short-tempered, Short fused. You know, I click the button, it should happen now, type people. And for better or worse, hopefully it gets better and we all become a bit more patient. But how do I get more effective and efficient at delivering that to that really demanding- >> I think you bring up a great point. I mean, it's not just people are getting short-tempered. I think it's more of applications are being deployed faster, security is more exposed if they don't see things quicker. You got data now infrastructure scaling up massively. So, there's a double-edged swords to scale. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maintenance, downtime, uptime, security. So yeah, I think there's a tension around, and one hand enthusiasm around pushing a lot of code and new apps. But is the confidence truly there? It's interesting one little, (snaps finger) supply chain software, look at Container Security for instance. >> Yeah, yeah. It's big. I mean it was codified. >> Do you agree that people, that's kind of an issue right now. >> Yeah, and it was, I mean even the supply chain has been codified by the US federal government saying there's things we need to improve. We don't want to see software being a point of vulnerability, and software includes that whole process of getting it to a running point. >> It's funny you mentioned remote and one of the thing things that you're passionate about, certainly Edge has to be remote. You don't want to roll a truck or labor at the Edge. But I was doing a conversation with, at Rebars last year about space. It's hard to do brake fix on space. It's hard to do a, to roll a someone to configure satellite, right? Right? >> Chris: Yeah. >> So Kubernetes is in space. We're seeing a lot of Cloud Native stuff in apps, in space, so just an example. This highlights the fact that it's got to be automated. Is there a machine learning AI angle with all this ChatGPT talk going on? You see all the AI going the next level. Some pretty cool stuff and it's only, I know it's the beginning, but I've heard people using some of the new machine learning, large language models, large foundational models in areas I've never heard of. Machine learning and data centers, machine learning and configuration management, a lot of different ways. How do you see as the product person, you incorporating the AI piece into the products for Platform9? >> I think that's a lot about looking at the telemetry and the information that we get back and to use one of those like old idle terms, that continuous improvement loop to feed it back in. And I think that's really where machine learning to start with comes into effect. As we run across all these customers, our system that helps at two o'clock in the morning has that telemetry, it's got that data. We can see what's changing and what's happening. So it's writing the right algorithms, creating the right machine learning to- >> So training will work for you guys. You have enough data and the telemetry to do get that training data. >> Yeah, obviously there's a lot of investment required to get there, but that is something that ultimately that could be achieved with what we see in operating people's environments. >> Great. Chris, great to have you here in the studio. Going wide ranging conversation on Kubernetes and Platform9. I guess my final question would be how do you look at the next five years out there? Because you got to run the product management, you got to have that 20 mile steer, you got to look at the customers, you got to look at what's going on in the engineering and you got to kind of have that arc. This is the right path kind of view. What's the five year arc look like for you guys? How do you see this playing out? 'Cause KubeCon is coming up and we're you seeing Kubernetes kind of break away with security? They had, they didn't call it KubeCon Security, they call it CloudNativeSecurityCon, they just had in Seattle inaugural events seemed to go well. So security is kind of breaking out and you got Kubernetes. It's getting bigger. Certainly not going away, but what's your five year arc of of how Platform9 and Kubernetes and Ops evolve? >> It's to stay on that theme, it's focusing on what is most important to our users and getting them to a point where they can just consume it, so they're not having to operate it. So it's finding those big items and bringing that into our platform. It's something that's consumable, that's just taken care of, that's tested with each release. So it's simplifying operations more and more. We've always said freedom in cloud computing. Well we started on, we started on OpenStack and made that simple. Stable, easy, you just have it, it works. We're doing that with Kubernetes. We're expanding out that user, right, we're saying bring your developers in, they can download their Kube conflict. They can see those Containers that are running there. They can access the events, the log files. They can log in and build a VM using KubeVirt. They're self servicing. So it's alleviating pressures off of the Ops team, removing the help desk systems that people still seem to rely on. So it's like what comes into that field that is the next biggest issue? Is it things like CI/CD? Is it simplifying GitOps? Is it bringing in security capabilities to talk to that? Or is that a piece that is a best of breed? Is there a reason that it's been spun out to its own conference? Is this something that deserves a focus that should be a specialized capability instead of tooling and vendors that we work with, that we partner with, that could be brought in as a service. I think it's looking at those trends and making sure that what we bring in has the biggest impact to our users. >> That's awesome. Thanks for coming in. I'll give you the last word. Put a plug in for Platform9 for the people who are watching. What should they know about Platform9 that they might not know about it or what should? When should they call you guys and when should they engage? Take a take a minute to give the plug. >> The plug. I think it's, if your operations team is focused on building Kubernetes, stop. That shouldn't be the cloud. That shouldn't be in the Edge, that shouldn't be at the data center. They should be consuming it. If your engineering teams are all trying different ways and doing different things to use and consume Cloud Native services and Kubernetes, they shouldn't be. You want consistency. That's how you get economies of scale. Provide them with a simple platform that's integrated with all of your enterprise identity where they can just start consuming instead of having to solve these problems themselves. It's those, it's those two personas, right? Where the problems manifest. What are my operations teams doing, and are they delivering to my company or are they building infrastructure again? And are my engineers sprinting or crawling? 'Cause if they're not sprinting, you should be asked the question, do I have the right Cloud Native tooling in my environment and how can I get them back? >> I think it's developer productivity, uptime, security are the tell signs. You get that done. That's the goal of what you guys are doing, your mission. >> Chris: Yep. >> Great to have you on, Chris. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Chris: Thanks very much. 0 Okay, this is "theCUBE" here, finding the right path to Cloud Native. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, from Palo Alto, Lisa Martin here. This is The Cube's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon, the inaugural event. I'm here with John Furrier in studio. In Boston, Dave Vellante joins us, and our guest, Liz Rice, one of our alumni, is joining us from Seattle. Great to have everyone here. Liz is the Chief Open Source officer at Isovalent. She's also the Emeritus Chair Technical Oversight Committee at CNCF, and a co-chair of this new event. Everyone, welcome Liz. Great to have you back on theCUBE. Thanks so much for joining us today. >> Thanks so much for having me, pleasure. >> So CloudNativeSecurityCon. This is the inaugural event, Liz, this used to be part of KubeCon, it's now its own event in its first year. Talk to us about the importance of having it as its own event from a security perspective, what's going on? Give us your opinions there. >> Yeah, I think security was becoming so- at such an important part of the conversation at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, and the TAG security, who were organizing the co-located Cloud Native Security Day which then turned into a two day event. They were doing this amazing job, and there was so much content and so much activity and so much interest that it made sense to say "Actually this could stand alone as a dedicated event and really dedicate, you know, all the time and resources of running a full conference, just thinking about cloud native security." And I think that's proven to be true. There's plenty of really interesting talks that we're going to see. Things like a capture the flag. There's all sorts of really good things going on this week. >> Liz, great to see you, and Dave, great to see you in Boston Lisa, great intro. Liz, you've been a CUBE alumni. You've been a great contributor to our program, and being part of our team, kind of extracting that signal from the CNCF cloud native world KubeCon. This event really kind of to me is a watershed moment, because it highlights not only security as a standalone discussion event, but it's also synergistic with KubeCon. And, as co-chair, take us through the thought process on the sessions, the experts, it's got a practitioner vibe there. So we heard from Priyanka early on, bottoms up, developer first. You know KubeCon's shift left was big momentum. This seems to be a breakout of very focused security. Can you share the rationale and the thoughts behind how this is emerging, and how you see this developing? I know it's kind of a small event, kind of testing the waters it seems, but this is really a directional shift. Can you share your thoughts? >> Yeah I'm just, there's just so many different angles that you can consider security. You know, we are seeing a lot of conversations about supply chain security, but there's also runtime security. I'm really excited about eBPF tooling. There's also this opportunity to talk about how do we educate people about security, and how do security practitioners get involved in cloud native, and how do cloud native folks learn about the security concepts that they need to keep their deployments secure. So there's lots of different groups of people who I think maybe at a KubeCon, KubeCon is so wide, it's such a diverse range of topics. If you really just want to focus in, drill down on what do I need to do to run Kubernetes and cloud native applications securely, let's have a really focused event, and just drill down into all the different aspects of that. And I think that's great. It brings the right people together, the practitioners, the experts, the vendors to, you know, everyone can be here, and we can find each other at a smaller event. We are not spread out amongst the thousands of people that would attend a KubeCon. >> It's interesting, Dave, you know, when we were talking, you know, we're going to bring you in real quick, because AWS, which I think is the bellweather for, you know, cloud computing, has now two main shows, AWS re:Invent and re:Inforce. Security, again, broken out there. you see the classic security events, RSA, Black Hat, you know, those are the, kind of, the industry kind of mainstream security, very wide. But you're starting to see the cloud native developer first with both security and cloud native, kind of, really growing so fast. This is a major trend for a lot of the ecosystem >> You know, and you hear, when you mention those other conferences, John you hear a lot about, you know, shift left. There's a little bit of lip service there, and you, we heard today way more than lip service. I mean deep practitioner level conversations, and of course the runtime as well. Liz, you spent a lot of time obviously in your keynote on eBPF, and I wonder if you could share with the audience, you know, why you're so excited about that. What makes it a more effective tool compared to other traditional methods? I mean, it sounds like it simplifies things. You talked about instrumenting nodes versus workloads. Can you explain that a little bit more detail? >> Yeah, so with eBPF programs, we can load programs dynamically into the kernel, and we can attach them to all kinds of different events that could be happening anywhere on that virtual machine. And if you have the right knowledge about where to hook into, you can observe network events, you can observe file access events, you can observe pretty much anything that's interesting from a security perspective. And because eBPF programs are living in the kernel, there's only one kernel shared amongst all of the applications that are running on that particular machine. So you don't- you no longer have to instrument each individual application, or each individual pod. There's no more need to inject sidecars. We can apply eBPF based tooling on a per node basis, which just makes things operationally more straightforward, but it's also extremely performant. We can hook these programs into events that typically very lightweight, small programs, kind of, emitting an event, making a decision about whether to drop a packet, making a decision about whether to allow file access, things of that nature. There's super fast, there's no need to transition between kernel space and user space, which is usually quite a costly operation from performance perspective. So eBPF makes it really, you know, it's taking the security tooling, and other forms of tooling, networking and observability. We can take these tools into the kernel, and it's really efficient there. >> So Liz- >> So, if I may, one, just one quick follow up. You gave kind of a space age example (laughs) in your keynote. When, do you think a year from now we'll be able to see, sort of, real world examples in in action? How far away are we? >> Well, some of that is already pretty widely deployed. I mean, in my keynote I was talking about Cilium. Cilium is adopted by hundreds of really big scale deployments. You know, the users file is full of household names who've been using cilium. And as part of that they will be using network policies. And I showed some visualizations this morning of network policy, but again, network policy has been around, pretty much since the early days of Kubernetes. It can be quite fiddly to get it right, but there are plenty of people who are using it at scale today. And then we were also looking at some runtime security detections, seeing things like, in my example, exfiltrating the plans to the Death Star, you know, looking for suspicious executables. And again, that's a little bit, it's a bit newer, but we do have people running that in production today, proving that it really does work, and that eBPF is a scalable technology. It's, I've been fascinated by eBPF for years, and it's really amazing to see it being used in the real world now. >> So Liz, you're a maintainer on the Cilium project. Talk about the use of eBPF in the Cilium project. How is it contributing to cloud native security, and really helping to change the dials on that from an efficiency, from a performance perspective, as well as a, what's in it for me as a business perspective? >> So Cilium is probably best known as a networking plugin for Kubernetes. It, when you are running Kubernetes, you have to make a decision about some networking plugin that you're going to use. And Cilium is, it's an incubating project in the CNCF. It's the most mature of the different CNIs that's in the CNCF at the moment. As I say, very widely deployed. And right from day one, it was based on eBPF. And in fact some of the people who contribute to the eBPF platform within the kernel, are also working on the Cilium project. They've been kind of developed hand in hand for the last six, seven years. So really being able to bring some of that networking capability, it required changes in the kernel that have been put in place several years ago, so that now we can build these amazing tools for Kubernetes operators. So we are using eBPF to make the networking stack for Kubernetes and cloud native really efficient. We can bypass some of the parts of the network stack that aren't necessarily required in a cloud native deployment. We can use it to make these incredibly fast decisions about network policy. And we also have a sub-project called Tetragon, which is a newer part of the Cilium family which uses eBPF to observe these runtime events. The things like people opening a file, or changing the permissions on a file, or making a socket connection. All of these things that as a security engineer you are interested in. Who is running executables who is making network connections, who's accessing files, all of these operations are things that we can observe with Cilium Tetragon. >> I mean it's exciting. We've chatted in the past about that eBPF extended Berkeley Packet Filter, which is about the Linux kernel. And I bring that up Liz, because I think this is the trend I'm trying to understand with this event. It's, I hear bottoms up developer, developer first. It feels like it's an under the hood, infrastructure, security geek fest for practitioners, because Brian, in his keynote, mentioned BIND in reference the late Dan Kaminsky, who was, obviously found that error in BIND at the, in DNS. He mentioned DNS. There's a lot of things that's evolving at the silicone, kernel, kind of root levels of our infrastructure. This seems to be a major shift in focus and rightfully so. Is that something that you guys talk about, or is that coincidence, or am I just overthinking this point in terms of how nerdy it's getting in terms of the importance of, you know, getting down to the low level aspects of protecting everything. And as we heard also the quote was no software secure. (Liz chuckles) So that's up and down the stack of the, kind of the old model. What's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Yeah, I mean I think a lot of folks who get into security really are interested in these kind of details. You know, you see write-ups of exploits and they, you know, they're quite often really involved, and really require understanding these very deep detailed technical levels. So a lot of us can really geek out about the details of that. The flip side of that is that as an application developer, you know, as- if you are working for a bank, working for a media company, you're writing applications, you shouldn't have to be worried about what's happening at the kernel level. This might be kind of geeky interesting stuff, but really, operationally, it should be taken care of for you. You've got your work cut out building business value in applications. So I think there's this interesting, kind of dual track going on almost, if you like, of the people who really want to get involved in those nitty gritty details, and understand how the underlying, you know, kernel level exploits maybe working. But then how do we make that really easy for people who are running clusters to, I mean like you said, nothing is ever secure, but trying to make things as secure as they can be easily, and make things visual, make things accessible, make things, make it easy to check whether or not you are compliant with whatever regulations you need to be compliant with. That kind of focus on making things usable for the platform team, for the application developers who deliver apps on the platform, that's the important (indistinct)- >> I noticed that the word expert was mentioned, I mentioned earlier with Priyanka. Was there a rationale on the 72 sessions, was there thinking around it or was it kind of like, these are urgent areas, they're obvious low hanging fruit. Was there, take us through the selection process of, or was it just, let's get 72 sessions going to get this (Liz laughs) thing moving? >> No, we did think quite carefully about how we wanted to, what the different focus areas we wanted to include. So we wanted to make sure that we were including things like governance and compliance, and that we talk about not just supply chain, which is clearly a very hot topic at the moment, but also to talk about, you know, threat detection, runtime security. And also really importantly, we wanted to have space to talk about education, to talk about how people can get involved. Because maybe when we talk about all these details, and we get really technical, maybe that's, you know, a bit scary for people who are new into the cloud native security space. We want to make sure that there are tracks and content that are accessible for newcomers to get involved. 'Cause, you know, given time they'll be just as excited about diving into those kind of kernel level details. But everybody needs a place to start, and we wanted to make sure there were conversations about how to get started in security, how to educate other members of your team in your organization about security. So hopefully there's something for everyone. >> That education piece- >> Liz, what's the- >> Oh sorry, Dave. >> What the buzz on on AI? We heard Dan talk about, you know, chatGPT, using it to automate spear phishing. There's always been this tension between security and speed to market, but CISOs are saying, "Hey we're going to a zero trust architecture and that's helping us move faster." Will, in your, is the talk on the floor, AI is going to slow us down a little bit until we figure it out? Or is it actually going to be used as an offensive defensive tool if I can use that angle? >> Yeah, I think all of the above. I actually had an interesting chat this morning. I was talking with Andy Martin from Control Plane, and we were talking about the risk of AI generated code that attempts to replicate what open source libraries already do. So rather than using an existing open source package, an organization might think, "Well, I'll just have my own version, and I'll have an AI write it for me." And I don't, you know, I'm not a lawyer so I dunno what the intellectual property implications of this will be, but imagine companies are just going, "Well you know, write me an SSL library." And that seems terrifying from a security perspective, 'cause there could be all sorts of very slightly different AI generated libraries that pick up the same vulnerabilities that exist in open source code. So, I think we're going to go through a pretty interesting period of vulnerabilities being found in AI generated code that look familiar, and we'll be thinking "Haven't we seen these vulnerabilities before? Yeah, we did, but they were previously in handcrafted code and now we'll see the same things being generated by AI." I mean, in the same way that if you look at an AI generated picture and it's got I don't know, extra fingers, or, you know, extra ears or something that, (Dave laughs) AI does make mistakes. >> So Liz, you talked about the education, the enablement, the 72 sessions, the importance of CloudNativeSecurityCon being its own event this year. What are your hopes and dreams for the practitioners to be able to learn from this event? How do you see the event as really supporting the growth, the development of the cloud native security community as a whole? >> Yeah, I think it's really important that we think of it as a Cloud Native Security community. You know, there are lots of interesting sort of hacker community security related community. Cloud native has been very community focused for a long time, and we really saw, particularly through the tag, the security tag, that there was this growing group of people who were, really wanted to work at that intersection between security and cloud native. And yeah, I think things are going really well this week so far, So I hope this is, you know, the first of many additions of this conference. I think it will also be interesting to see how the balance between a smaller, more focused event, compared to the giant KubeCon and cloud native cons. I, you know, I think there's space for both things, but whether or not there will be other smaller focus areas that want to stand alone and justify being able to stand alone as their own separate conferences, it speaks to the growth of cloud native in general that this is worthwhile doing. >> Yeah. >> It is, and what also speaks to, it reminds me of our tagline here at theCUBE, being able to extract the signal from the noise. Having this event as a standalone, being able to extract the value in it from a security perspective, that those practitioners and the community at large is going to be able to glean from these conversations is something that will be important, that we'll be keeping our eyes on. >> Absolutely. Makes sense for me, yes. >> Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the things, Lisa, that I want to get in, and if you don't mind asking Dave his thoughts, because he just did a breaking analysis on the security landscape. And Dave, you know, as Liz talking about some of these root level things, we talk about silicon advances, powering machine learning, we've been covering a lot of that. You've been covering the general security industry. We got RSA coming up reinforced with AWS, and as you see the cloud native developer first, really driving the standards of the super cloud, the multicloud, you're starting to see a lot more application focus around latency and kind of controlling that, These abstraction layer's starting to see a lot more growth. What's your take, Dave, on what Liz and- is talking about because, you know, you're analyzing the horses on the track, and there's sometimes the old guard security folks, and you got open source continuing to kick butt. And even on the ML side, we've been covering some of these foundation models, you're seeing a real technical growth in open source at all levels and, you know, you still got some proprietary machine learning stuff going on, but security's integrating all that. What's your take and your- what's your breaking analysis on the security piece here? >> I mean, to me the two biggest problems in cyber are just the lack of talent. I mean, it's just really hard to find super, you know, deep expertise and get it quickly. And I think the second is it's just, it's so many tools to deal with. And so the architecture of security is just this mosaic and a mess. That's why I'm excited about initiatives like eBPF because it does simplify things, and developers are being asked to do a lot. And I think one of the other things that's emerging is when you- when we talk about Industry 4.0, and IIoT, you- I'm seeing a lot of tools that are dedicated just to that, you know, slice of the world. And I don't think that's the right approach. I think that there needs to be a more comprehensive view. We're seeing, you know, zero trust architectures come together, and it's going to take some time, but I think that you're going to definitely see, you know, some rethinking of how to architect security. It's a game of whack-a-mole, but I think the industry is just- the technology industry is doing a really really good job of, you know, working hard to solve these problems. And I think the answer is not just another bespoke tool, it's a broader thinking around architectures and consolidating some of those tools, you know, with an end game of really addressing the problem in a more comprehensive fashion. >> Liz, in the last minute or so we have your thoughts on how automation and scale are driving some of these forcing functions around, you know, taking away the toil and the muck around developers, who just want stuff to be code, right? So infrastructure as code. Is that the dynamic here? Is this kind of like new, or is it kind of the same game, different kind of thing? (chuckles) 'Cause you're seeing a lot more machine learning, a lot more automation going on. What's, is that having an impact? What's your thoughts? >> Automation is one of the kind of fundamental underpinnings of cloud native. You know, we're expecting infrastructure to be written as code, We're expecting the platform to be defined in yaml essentially. You know, we are expecting the Kubernetes and surrounding tools to self-heal and to automatically scale and to do things like automated security. If we think about supply chain, you know, automated dependency scanning, think about runtime. Network policy is automated firewalling, if you like, for a cloud native era. So, I think it's all about making that platform predictable. Automation gives us some level of predictability, even if the underlying hardware changes or the scale changes, so that the application developers have something consistent and standardized that they can write to. And you know, at the end of the day, it's all about the business applications that run on top of this infrastructure >> Business applications and the business outcomes. Liz, we so appreciate your time talking to us about this inaugural event, CloudNativeSecurityCon 23. The value in it for those practitioners, all of the content that's going to be discussed and learned, and the growth of the community. Thank you so much, Liz, for sharing your insights with us today. >> Thanks for having me. >> For Liz Rice, John Furrier and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon 23. (electronic music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, wonderful Cloud community and welcome back to our wall-to-wall coverage of AWS re:Invent here in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by the brilliant John Furrier. John, how you doing this afternoon? >> Doing great, feeling good. We've got day three here, another day tomorrow. Wall-to-wall coverage we're already over a hundred something videos, live getting up. >> You're holding up well. >> And then Cloud show is just popping. It's back to pre-pandemic levels. The audience is here, what recession? But there is one coming but apparently doesn't seem to be an unnoticed with the Cloud community. >> I think, we'll be talking a little bit about that in our next interview in the state of the union. Not just our union, but the the general global economy and the climate there with some fabulous guests from Software One. Please welcome Neil and Bernd, welcome to the show, guys. How you doing? >> Great, thank you. >> Really good. >> Yeah, like you said, just getting over the jet lag. >> Yeah, yeah. Pretty good today, yeah, (laughing loudly) glad we did it today. >> I love that Neil, set your smiling and I can feel your energy. Tell us a little bit about Software One and what you all do. >> Yeah, so Software One we're a software and Cloud solutions provider. We're in 90 countries. We have 65,000 customers. >> Savannah: Just a few. >> Yeah, and we really focus on being close to the customers and helping customers through their software and Cloud journey. So we transact, we sell software in Cloud, 10,000 different ISVs. And then on top of that we a lot of services around the spend optimization FinOps we'll talk about as well, and lots of other areas. But yeah, we're really a large scale partner in this space. >> That's awesome. FinOps, cost optimization, pretty much all we've been talking about here on the give. It's very much a hot topic. I'm actually excited about this and Bernd I'm going to throw this one to you first. We haven't actually done a proper definition of what FinOps is at the show yet. What is FinOps? >> Well, largely speaking it's Cloud cost optimization but for us it's a lot more than for others. That's our superpower. We do it all. We do the technology side but we also do the licensing side. So, we have a differentiated offering. If you would look at the six Rs of application migration we do it all, not even an Accenture as it all. And that is our differentiation. >> You know, yesterday Adams left was on the Keynote. He's like waving his hands around. It's like, "Hey, we got if you want to tighten your belt, come to the Cloud." I'm like, wait a minute. In 2008 when the last recession, Amazon wasn't a factor. They were small. Now they're massive, they're huge. They're a big part of the economic equation. What does belt tightening mean? Like what does that mean? Like do customers just go to the marketplace? Do they go, do you guys, so a lot of moving parts now on how they're buying software and they're fine tuning their Cloud too. It's not just eliminate budget, it's fine tune the machine if you will... >> 'make a smarter Cloud. >> Explain this phenomenon, how people are tackling this cost optimization, Cloud optimization. 'Cause they're not going to stop building. >> No. >> This is right sizing and tuning and cutting. >> Yeah, we see, of course with so many customers in so many countries, we have a lot of different views on maturity and we see customers taking the FinOps journey at different paces. But fundamentally what we see is that it's more of an afterthought and coming in at a panic stage rather than building it and engaging with it from the beginning and doing it continuously. And really that's the huge opportunity and AWS is a big believer in this of continued optimization of the Cloud is a confident Cloud. A confident Cloud means you'll do more with it. If you lose confidence in that bill in what how much it's costing you, you're going to retract. And so it's really about making sure all customers know exactly what's in there, how it's optimized, restocking, reformatting applications, getting more out of the microservices and getting more value out the Cloud and that will help them tighten that belt. >> So the euphoric enthusiasm of previous years of building water just fallen the pipes leaving the lights on when you go to bed. I mean that's kind of the mentality. People were not literally I won't say they weren't not paying attention but there was some just keep going we're all good now it's like whoa, whoa. We turn that service off and no one's using it or do automation. So there's a lot more of that mindset emerging. We're hearing that for the first time price performance being mindful of what's on and off common sense basically. >> Yeah, but it's not just that the lights are on and the faucets are open it's also the air condition is running. So the FinOps foundation is estimating that about a third of Cloud spend is waste and that's where FinOps comes in. We can help customers be more efficient in the Cloud and lower their Cloud spend while doing the same or more. >> So, let's dig in a little bit there. How do you apply FinOps when migrating to the Cloud? >> Well, you start with the business case and you're not just looking at infrastructure costs like most people do you ought look at software licensing costs. For example, if you run SQL on-premise you have an enterprise agreement. But if you move it to the Cloud you may actually take a different more favorable licensing agreement and save a lot of money. And these things are hidden. They're not to be seen but they need to be part of the business case. >> When you look at the modernization trend we had an analyst on our session with David Vellante and Zs (indistinct) from ZK Consulting. He had an interesting comment. He said, "Spend more in Cloud to save more." Which is a mindset that doesn't come across right. Wait a minute, spend more, save more. You can do bet right now with the Clouds kind of the the thesis of FinOps, you don't have to cut. Just kind of cut the waste out but still spend and build if you're smart, there's a lot more of that going on. What does that mean? >> I mean, yeah I've got a good example of this is, we're the largest Microsoft provider in the world. And when of course when you move Microsoft workloads to the Cloud, you don't... Maybe you don't want a server, you can go serverless, right? So you may not win a server. Bernd said SQL, right? So, it's not just about putting applications in the Cloud and workloads in the Cloud. It's about modernizing them and then really taking advantage of what you can really do in the Cloud. And I think that's where the customers are still pretty immature. They're still on that journey of throwing stuff in there and then realizing actually they can take way more advantage of what services are in there to reduce the amount and get even more in there. >> Yeah, and so the... You want to say, something? >> How much, just building on the stereotypical image of Cloud customer is the marketing person with a credit card, right? And there are many of them and they all buy their own Cloud and companies have a hard time consolidating the spend pulling it together, even within a country. But across countries across the globe, it's really, really hard. If you pull it all together, you get a better discount. You spend more to save more. >> Yeah, and also there's a human piece. We had an intern two summers ago playing with our Cloud. We're on a Cloud with our media plus stack left a service was playing around doing some tinkering and like, where's this bill? What is this extra $20,000 came from. It just, we left a service on... >> It's a really good point actually. It's something that we see almost every day right now which is customers also not understanding what they've put in the Cloud and what the implications of spikes are. And also therefore having really robust monitoring and processes and having a partner that can look after that for them. Otherwise we've got customers where they've been really shocked about not doing things the right way because they've empowered the business but also not with the maturity that the business needs to have that responsibility. >> And that's a great point. New people coming in and or people being platooned through new jobs are getting used to the Cloud. That's a great point. I got that brings up my security question 'cause this comes up a lot. So that's what's a lot of spend of people dialing up more security. Obviously people try everything with security, every tool, every platform, and throw everything at the problem. How does that impact the FinOps equation? 'Cause Dev SecOps is now part of everything. Okay, moving security at the CICD pipeline, that's cool. Check Cloud native applications, microservices event-based services check. But now you've got more security. How does that factor into the cost side? What you guys look at that can you share your thoughts on how your customers are managing their security posture without getting kind of over the barrel, if you will? >> Since we are at AWS re:Invent, right? We can talk about the well architected framework of AWS and there's six components to it. And there's reliability, there's security cost, performance quality, operational quality and sustainability. And so when we think about migrating apps to the Cloud or modernizing them in the Cloud security is always a table stakes. >> And it has to be, yeah, go ahead. >> I really like what AWS is doing with us on that. We partner very closely on that area. And to give you a parallel example of Microsoft I don't feel very good about that at the moment. We see a lot of customers right now that get hacked and normally it's... >> 'yeah that's such a topic. >> You mean on Azure? >> Yeah, and what happens is that they normally it's a crypto mining script that the customer comes in they come in as the customer get hacked and then they... We saw an incident the other day where we had 2,100 security incidents in a minute where it all like exploded on the customer side. And so that's also really important is that the customer's understanding that security element also who they're letting in and out of their organization and also the responsibility they have if things go bad. And that's also not aware, like when they get hacked, are they responsible for that? Are they not responsible? Is the provider... >> 'shared responsibility? >> Yeah. >> 'well that security data lake the open cybersecurity schema framework. That's going to be very interesting to see how that plays out to your point. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Yeah, it is fascinating and it does require a lot of collaboration. What other trends, what other big challenges are you seeing? You're obviously working with customers at incredible scale. What are some of the other problems you're helping them tackle? >> I think we work with customers from SMB all the way up to enterprise and public sector. But what we see is more in the enterprise space. So we see a lot of customers willing to commit a lot to the Cloud based on all the themes that we've set but not commit financially for all the PNLs that they run in all the business units of all the different companies that they may own in different countries. So it's like, how can I commit but not be responsible on the hook for the bill that comes in. And we see this all the time right now and we are working closely with AWS on this. And we see the ability for customers to commit centrally but decentralized billing, decentralized optimization and decentralized FinOps. So that's that educational layer within the business units who owns the PNL where they get that fitness and they own what they're spending but the company is alone can commit to AWS. And I think that's a big trend that we are seeing is centralized commitment but decentralized ownership in that model. >> And that's where the marketplaces kind of fit in as well. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, yeah. Do you want to add some more on that? >> I mean the marketplace, if you're going to cut your bill you go to the marketplace right there you want single dashboard or your marketplace what's the customer going to do when they're going to tighten their belts? What do they do? What's their workflow, marketplace? What's the process? >> Well, on marketplaces, the larger companies will have a private marketplace with dedicated pricing managed service they can call off. But that's for the software of the shelf. They still have the data centers they still have all the legacy and they need to do the which ones are we going to keep which ones are we going to retire, we repurchase, we license, rehouse, relocate, all of those things. >> That's your wheelhouse. >> It's a three, yes is our wheelhouse. It's a three to five year process for most companies. >> This could be a tailwind for you guys. This is like a good time. >> I mean FinOps is super cool and super hot right now. >> Not that you're biased? (all laughing loudly) >> But look, it's great to see it because well we are the magic quadrant leader in software asset management, which is a pedigree of ours. But we always had to convince customers to do that because they're always worried, oh what you're going to find do I have an audit? Do I have to give Oracles some more money or SAP some more money? So there's always like, you know... >> 'don't, (indistinct). >> How compliant do I really want? >> Is anyone paying attention to this? >> Well FinOps it's all upside. Like it's all upside. And so it's completely flipped. And now we speak to most customers that are building FinOps internally and then they're like, hold on a minute I'm a bank. Why do I have hundred people doing FinOps? And so that's the trend that we've seen because they just get more and more value out of it all the time. >> Well also the key mindset is that the consumption based model of Cloud you mentioned Oracle 'cause they're stuck in that whoa, whoa, whoa, how many servers license and they're stuck in that extortion. And now they got Cloud once you're on a variable, what's the downside? >> Exactly and then you can look at all the applications, see where you can go serverless see where you can go native services all that sort of stuff is all upside. >> And for the major workloads like SAP and Oracle and Microsoft defined that customers save in the millions. >> Well just on that point, those VMware, SAP, these workloads they're being rolled and encapsulated into containers and Kubernetes run times moved into the Cloud, they're being refactored. So that's a whole nother ballgame. >> Yes. Lift and shift usually doesn't save you any money. So that's relocation with containers may save you money but in some cases you have to... >> 'it's more in the Cloud now than ever before. >> Yeah >> Yeah, yeah. >> Before we take him to the challenge portion we have a little quiz for you, or not a quiz, but a little prop for you in a second. I want to talk about your role. You have a very important role at the FinOps Foundation and why don't you tell me more about that? You, why don't you go. >> All right, so yeah I mean we are a founding member of the Finops organization. You can tell I'm super passionate about it as well. >> I wanted to keep that club like a poster boy for FinOps right now. It's great, I love the energy. >> You have some VA down that is going to go up on the table and dance, (all laughing loudly) >> We're ready for it. We're waiting for that performance here on theCUBE this week. I promise I would keep everyone up an alert... >> 'and it's on the post. And our value to the foundation is first of all the feedback we get from all our customers, right? We can bring that back as an organization to that also as one of the founding members. We're one of the only ones that really deliver services and platforms. So we'll work with Cloud health, Cloud ability our own platform as well, and we'll do that. And we have over 200 practitioners completely dedicated to FinOps as well. So, it's a great foundation, they're doing an amazing job and we're super proud to be part of that. >> Yeah, I love that you're contributing to the community as well as supporting it, looking after your customers. All right, so our new tradition here on theCUBE at re:Invent 'cause we're looking for your 32nd Instagram reel hot take sizzle of thought leadership on the number one takeaway most important theme of the show this year Bernd do you want to go first? >> Of the re:Invent show or whatever? >> You can interpret that however you want. We've gotten some unique interpretations throughout the week, so we're probing. >> Everybody's looking for the superpower to do more with less in the Cloud. That will be the theme of 2023. >> Perfect, I love that. 10 seconds, your mic very efficient. You're clearly providing an efficient solution based on that answer. >> I won't that much. That's... (laughing loudly) >> It's the quiz. And what about you Neil? Give us your, (indistinct) >> I'm going to steal your comment. It's exactly what I was thinking earlier. Tech is super resilient and tech is there for customers when they want to invest and modernize and do fun stuff and they're also there for when they want to save money. So we are always like a constant and you see that here. It's like this is... It's always happening here, always happening. >> It is always happening. It really can feel the energy. I hope that the show is just as energetic and fun for you guys. As the last few minutes here on theCUBE has been thank you both for joining us. >> Thanks. >> Thank you very much. >> And thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this conversation about FinOps, Cloud confidence and all things AWS re:Invent. We're here in Las Vegas, Nevada with John Furrier, my name is Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright upbeat music)

>>The Cube Presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>Hi everybody. Welcome back to UI Path Forward at five. You're watching the Cubes coverage. Everybody here is automating everything. Mundane tasks, Enterprisewide Automation Platform Beats product. Dave Nicholson. Dave Ante, Garish Pie is here. He is the Global head of Intelligent Enterprise Automation at Cognizant Global. Si, good to see you. Thanks for coming to the queue. Thank you for having me. Tell us about your role. What are you focused on? So, >>So I lead the enterprise automation practice at Cognizant, and we are focused on three broad segments, right? So we help customers anchor to business outcomes in, in looking at the business outcomes, what we look to do is help them drive transformation at a process level, looking at it from a technology standpoint, and then helping them look at how they're trying to drive change across their entire enterprise and bringing that together, you know, and helping them harmonize both at a technology and at a process level in terms of, you know, the outcomes they're trying to achieve. So >>You guys are a partner, I see your booth over there, and you're also a customer, right? Yes, we are. So are you involved in the both sides? One side, what, what, what's your purpose? >>So we do, so we, we sort of work, So we have a full 360 degree relationship with the i p. So we work with them, you know, in a professional services capacity. They, they support us as a partnership in the marketplace where we go into a number of our customers jointly to drive turnkey transformational engagements from an automation standpoint and second from a, as a, as a, as a customer to UiPath, they've been supporting us, you know, drive a number of automation initiatives across our operations book over the course of the last two years. >>Okay. So tell us more about that. So you started your internal journey, we had you guys on last year. Yep. It were just getting started I think, I think I think you, your head count is what, 60,000 somewhere around? Yeah. 70,000. Yeah, $70,000 growing. I think at the time it was maybe less than 10% of the workforce was kind of automated and the goal was to automate everybody. How are you guys doing along >>The, I think it's starting to in industrialize quite significantly. So over the course of the last year since we last spoke to you, probably, you know, we've doubled the head count in terms of the number of people that are now, you know, officially what we call quote unquote citizen developers. And you know, how they are driving automation at a personal level, we've probably gone about 2.5 x in terms of the number of RS we've saved. So we've done about, I think 450,000 rs, you know, in terms of actual saves at a personal automation level. And look, it's, it's been a great, you know, last 12 months too, right? Because, you know, as we've sort of started to get the message percolated more and more, our teams have started to get energized. They are happy that they are, you know, getting a release in terms of what they're doing on a day to day basis, which is largely repetitive at times, very mundane. And now they have the ability to bring in technology to be able to embrace that and drive that, that you know, much more efficiently. >>Are you talking dozens of bots? Thousands of bots? What's the scope of? >>So I think we've, we've scaled to about 3,500 today in terms of the bots and, and it's, it's a journey that continues to evolve. For me, the number is probably something which I wouldn't anchor to because it's, look, it's end of the day what you end up releasing and what you end up freeing and what the teams are doing. And I think, you know, that's the way we are >>Leading. So you're saying like, we always talk about number of boss, but you're saying it's largely in a relevant metric? Well, and not if it's five versus a thousand. Okay. That's meaningful, right? But, but >>Yeah, I think look a number for me, I think it's not about the number, right? It's about the outcome and it's about what impact you're having in, in terms of, you know, what you're trying to get done at the end of the day, right? Because ultimately you're trying to better, you know, what you do on a day to day basis and you know, whether it's done through 10 or whether that's done through 10,000. >>Yeah. But you pay >>Form, >>Right? Exactly. So, so you better get some value out. Exactly. It's about the value. >>But is there, is there a, is there a curve in terms, you know, an s-curve in terms of scalability though? I mean we, we, we've heard organizations doing, from organizations doing an amazing amount of modernization and automation and they say they've got 15 bots running, you have 3,500. Is there a number where it becomes harder to manage or, or is there scalability involved? >>So look, for me, so let me answer it this way, right? I think, I think there are two aspects to it. I think the, the, the, the more you have, you know, the bigger the challenge in terms of how you run the controls, the governance and the residency in terms of, you know, how you manage the, you know, the, the setup of the bots itself. So I think, yeah, I mean we want to have it to a manageable number, but for us, in the way we've looked at the number of bots, one of the things that we've done is we also look at, you know, what's foundational versus what's nuanced in terms of the kind of use cases that you're trying to deliver. So, so any program of this nature, you need to have a setup, which is, you know, which allows you to sort of orchestrate it in the right manner so that as you sort of scale and you bring more people into that equation, you, it's, you're not just creating bots for the sake of it, but you're actually, you know, trying to look at what you can reuse, what you can orchestrate better. >>And then in the context of that, figuring out where you have the gaps and then hence, you know, sort of taking the delta approach of what else and what more you need to build it. >>So you guys have a big observation space. You work with a lot of customers and, and so what are you seeing as the trends when you look out there? How are you applying it to your own business and your customer's businesses? >>So look, for me, I think the last two years, if anything, the one thing I've taken away is that transformation is now extremely, extremely compressed, right? So, so it's almost, you know, what's true today is probably irrelevant tomorrow. So, which means you have to continually evolve in terms of what needs to be done, right? Second is experiences have become extremely, extremely crucial and critical and experiences of, in, in my mind, you know, two or three kinds, right? One the end customer second from an employee standpoint, and third, in terms of the partner ecosystem that you will have as an enterprise that you have to cater to, right? The other element that you know, which becomes true will always remain true is the whole outcome story in terms of, you know, how we have an anchor to why you're trying to do what you're trying to do. >>And that is, you know, core to what you need to get done. So in the way we've looked at it, as we've said, you know, as you sort of look at how transformation is now evolving and how compressed it's starting to become, the more you are able to orchestrate for what the enterprise is trying to get done in terms of modernization, in terms of digitization, in terms of end goals and end outcomes that they're trying to achieve. And the more you're able to sweat what sits within, you know, the enterprise bring that together as you think about automation is, you know, where the true value lies in terms of being able to create an agile enterprise. >>When you think about digital transformation, digital experiences, if it's, if it's a layer cake, where is automation in that, in that layer? Is it, is it sort of the bottom of the stack? Is it, is it the whole stack? >>So for me it's, I mean it's, it's evolved. If you take today's view, I think what's emerging is a very pervasive view of how you think about automation. It sits across, you know, the entire enterprise. It, it, it, it takes a people process, technology dimension, which is age old. It has to cover, you know, all forms of transformation. You know, whether you're looking at end, how do I say, impact in terms of how you're dealing with customers, whether you're looking at the infrastructure, whether you're looking at the data layer in between, it has to be embedded across the base, right? It, it, you have to take a pervasive approach. And for me, I think automation increasingly in the days ahead is gonna be an enterprise capability. You know, it has to be, you know, all pervasive in the way it needs to be set up. >>The key, the operative word there is pervasive. And that seems to be, you know, the era that we're entering, I don't know what you call it, call it the metaverse, I mean, you know, it's more than cloud and cloud is basically just the infrastructure, right? You're building on top of that, whether it's natural language processing or cryptography or virtual, I mean, there's so many different, you know, technology dimensions, right? But it, but the point about pervasive, okay, it's everywhere. It's sensing, it's anticipatory, it feels like there's this new, you know, construct, emerging of platform that is the basis for digital business, right? And I, and I feel like every 15 years our industry goes through some big transformation. How, how do you see it? You know, do you agree that you, it feels like, okay, something new is happening. It's, it's not gonna be the social media, you know, Facebook's not gonna continue to dominate the world as it does. You already seen some cracks in that armor. We saw Microsoft after the pc, and then of course it came back with cloud Amazon looks, you know, indestructible. But that, that's never the end story, right? In our, in our world, how do you see that? >>No, I think all of what you said, I, I would sort of tend to agree with, for me, look, I don't have a crystal ball to say, you know, what's gonna happen with Facebook or Amazon or >>Otherwise. Yeah. But that's what makes this fun. But >>I, Yeah, but, but I think for me, the, the core is I think you're dictated by, you know, us as end consumers, if you're a B2B or a b2b, b2c, you know, depending upon what business you're in, I think the end customer value dictates, you know, what evolves in terms of, you know, the, the manifestation of, you know, how you will two minutes sort of deliver services, the products that you'll get into. And in that context then, you know, whether you take a, a TikTok view to it or whether you take an Amazon view to it, or whether YouTube becomes relevant in the days ahead, I think it's gonna be dictated by, >>By customer, but it tends to be a technology that's the disruptor, it's the microprocessor or it's the social capability or, or maybe it's ai that, that is the catalyst for that. And then the customer adoption dictates, oh, you're right about that. But there, but the, the match is usually technology. Is that fair or not necessarily? Yeah, >>I still look, I mean you talked about metaverse earlier, right? I think we are, I think we are, it's probably hype more than it is reality right now, at least in my view. And it's, I think we are significantly out in terms of, you know, large scale adoption in terms of what needs to be done. You talk about blockchain, blockchains been around, you know, for at least a decade if not more in, in, right. The way it's being talked about, the adoption, you know, in terms of the, the, the applicability of the, you know, of what is that technology I think is understood, but the actual use cases in terms of how it can be taken into the market and how you can scale it across industries, I think is, you know, is still because >>The economics determine ultimately exactly the outcome. So, Okay, that makes sense. >>Yeah. Now you said you don't have a crystal ball. I, I have one, but when I look into it, it's sort of murky when I try to figure out the answer to the question, Is a platform necessary for this, for automation? I mean, this is really the direction, the question, the existential question in terms of the trajectory of UI path. It seems obvious that automation is critical. It's not as obvious where that automation is going to end up eventually because it's so critical. It feels like it's almost the same as, okay, there's an interface between my keystrokes and filling in a box with text. Well, of course there has to be, there has to be that interface, right? So why wouldn't everyone deliver that by default? So as you gaze into my crystal ball with me, tell me about the things that only a platform can do from your perspective. >>So, >>So, so, so think of it this way, right? I mean, any enterprise probably has hundreds of technologies that they've invested in some platform, some applications that you would've built and evolved over time, which are bespoke custom in nature. So for me, I think when you think about automation, I think it's the balance between the two. What a platform allows you to do is to be able to orchestrate, given the complexity and the, the spa that is any enterprise, you know, that's probably got the burden of, you know, what they've done over the course of the, the previous years. And then in that context then, you know, how do you sort of help get the, the best value out of that in terms of what you want to deliver as the end, end outcomes, if I can call it that, right? So for me, I don't think you can say it's, it's her platform versus the rest. >>I think it's gonna be, it's always gonna be a balance and to the question that you asked earlier. And in terms of saying where does an automation end up at? I think if it's gonna be a pervasive view, look, you know, if, if clients are trying to modernize and get onto the cloud, you can do automation at a cloud level too. Now, you know, do I say then, you know, is it, is it sort of inclusive or it's native to what the cloud providers offer? Or do I then go and say automation needs to be something which I will, you know, sort of overlay on top of what the cloud providers offer. So I think it depends upon what dimension that you come at it. So I don't think you can say it's one or the other. You have a platform, I think it helps you orchestrate quite significantly. But there are gonna be aspects within any enterprise, given the complexity that exists that you will have to balance out, you know, platform versus, you know, how you have to address it maybe in a more individual capacity. >>Garris, gotta go. Thank you so much. Appreciate your perspectives. Good conversation. All right, keep it right there. But trains will back it up. We'll be right back right after this short break. The cube live at UI path forward, five from Las Vegas.

>>Hey guys. Good morning. And welcome back to the cube. Lisa Martin here with John furrier. This is the Cube's third day of Wal Dal coverage of VMware Explorer. We're very pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program. Chris Wolf joins us chief research and innovation officer at VMware. Chris, welcome back to the >>Cube. Yeah. Thanks Lisa. It's always a pleasure. >>This has been a great event. We, we, the key note was standing room only on Tuesday morning. We've had great conversations with VMware's ecosystem and VMware of course, what are some of the, the hot things going on from an R and D perspective? >>Yeah, there's, there's a lot. I mean, we're, we have about four or five different priorities. And these look at this is looking at sovereign clouds and multi-cloud edge computing, modern applications and data services. We're doing quite a bit of work in machine learning as well as insecurity. So we're, we're relatively large organization, but at the same time, we really look to pick our bets. So when we're doing something in ML or security, then we wanna make sure that it's high quality and it's differentiated and adds value for VMware, our partners and our customers. >>Where are our customers in the mix in terms of being influential in the roadmap? >>Very, very much in the mix. What we, what we like to do is in early stage R and D, we want to have five to 10 customers as design partners. And that really helps. And in addition to that, as we get closer to go to market, we look to a lineup between one and three of our SI partners as well, to really help us, you know, in a large company, sometimes your organic innovations can get lost in the shuffle. Yeah. And when we have passionate SI that are like, yes, we want to take this forward with you together. That's just awesome. And it also helps us to understand at a very early stage, what are the integration requirements? So we're not just thinking about the, the core product itself, but how would it play in the ecosystem equally important? >>We had hit Culbert on CTO, great work. He's dealing with the white paper and cross cloud, obviously vSphere, big release, lot of this stuff. Dave ante had mentioned that in the analyst session, you had a lot of good stuff you were talking about. That's coming around the corner. That's shipping coming outta the oven and a big theme this year is multi-cloud cloud native. The relationship what's one's ahead. Bleed dog. No one, you kinda get a feel for multi-cloud. It's kind of out front right now, but now cloud native's got the most history what's coming out of the oven right now in terms of hitting the market. That's not yet in this, in the, in the, in the numbers, in terms of sales, like there's, there's some key cloud native stuff coming out. Where's the action. Can you share what you've shared at the analyst meeting? >>Yeah. So at the analyst meeting, what I was going through was a number of our new innovation projects or projects. And, and these are things that are typically close to being product or service at VMware, you know, somewhere in the year out timeframe. Some, some of these are just a few months out. So let me just go through some of them, I'll start with project keek. So keek is super exciting because when you think about edge, what we're hearing from customers is the, the notion of a single platform, a single piece of hardware that can run their cloud services, their containers, their VMs, their network, and security functions. Doing all of this on one platform, gives them the flexibility that as changes happen, it's a software update. They don't have to buy another piece of hardware, but if we step back, what's the management experience you want, right? >>Simple get ops oriented, simple life cycle and configuration management, very low touch. I don't need technical skills to deploy these types of devices. So this is where keek comes in. So what keek is doing is exposing a Kubernetes API above the ESXi hypervisor and taking a complete, get op style of management. So imagine now, when you need to do an update for infrastructure, you're logging into GitHub, you're editing a YAML file and pushing the update. We're doing the same thing for the applications that reside. I can do all of this through GitHub. So this is very, I would say, even internally disruptive to VMware, but super exciting for our customers and partners that we've shared this with. >>What else is happening? What else on the cloud native side Tansu Monterey those lot areas. >>Oh, there's so much. So if we look at project Monterey, I had a presentation within Invidia yesterday. We're really talking through this. And what I'm seeing now is there's a couple of really interesting inflection points with DPU. The first thing is the performance that you're getting and the number of cores that you can save on an X 86 host is actually providing a very strong business case now to bring DPU into the servers, into the data center. So that's one. So now you have a positive ROI. Number two, you start to decouple core services now from the X 86 host itself. So think about a distributed firewall that I can run on a PCI adapter. Now that's DEC coupled, physically from the server, and it really allows me to scale out east west security in a way that I could not do before. So again, I think that's really exciting and that's where we're seeing a lot of buzz from customers. >>So that DPU, which got a lot of buzz, by the way, Lisa, I never, you had trouble interviews on this. I had to the Dell folks too, V X RS taking the advantage of it, the performances, I see the performance angle on that and deep user hot. Can you talk about that security east west thing? Cuz Tom Gillis was on yesterday talking about that's a killer advantage for the security side. Can you touch on that real >>Quick? Yeah. A hundred percent. So what I can now do is take a, a firewall and run it isolated from the X 86 host that it's trying to protect. So it's right next to the host. I can get line rate speeds in terms of analytics and processing of my network and security traffic. So that's also huge. So I'm running line rate on the host and I'm able to run one of these firewall instances on every host in my data center, you cannot do that. You can never afford it with physical appliances. So to me, this is an inflection point because this is the start of network and security functions moving off of hardware appliances and onto DPU. And if you're the ecosystem vendors, this is how they're going to be able to scale some of their services and offerings into the public >>Cloud. So a lot of good stuff happening within the VMware kind of the hardware, low level atoms and the bits as well as the software. The other thing I wanna get your thoughts on relative to the next question is that takes to the next level is the super cloud world we're living in is about cloud native developers, which is DevOps dev security ops and data ops are now big parts of the, the challenges that the people are reigning in the chaos that that's being reigned in. How does VMware look at the relationship to the cloud providers? Cause we heard cloud universal. We had the cloud. If you believe in multi-cloud, which you guys are saying, people are agreeing with, then you gotta have good tight couple coupled relationships with the cloud services, >>A hundred percent. >>We can be decoupled, but highly cohesive, but you gotta connect in via APIs. What's the vision for the VMware customers who want to connect say AWS, for instance, is that seamless? What makes that happen? What's that roadmap look like for taking that VMware on premises hybrid and making it like turbo charging it to be like public cloud hybrid together? >>Yeah, I think there's some lessons that can be learned here. You know, an analogy I've been using lately is look at the early days of virtualization when VMware had vCenter, right? What was happening was you saw the enterprise management vendors try to do this overlay above virtualization management and say, we can manage all hypervisors. And at the end of the day, these multi hypervisor managers, no one bought 'em because they can do 20% of the functionality of a tool from VMware or Microsoft. And that's the lesson that we have to take to multi-cloud. We don't have to overlay every functionality. There's really good capabilities that the cloud providers are offering through their own tooling and APIs. Right? But you, you, if you step back, you say, well, what do I wanna centralize? I wanna have a centralized, secure software supply chain and I can get that through VMware tan zoo and, and where we're going with Kubernetes. When you're going with native cloud services, you might say, you know what, I wanna have a central view of, of visibility for compliance. So that's what we're doing with secure state or a central view of cost management. And we're doing that with cloud health. So you can have some brokering and governance, but then you also have to look from a surgical perspective as to what are the things that I really need to centralize versus what do I not need to centralize? >>One of the themes that we heard on the keynote on Tuesday was the, the different phases and that a lot of customers are still in the cloud chaos phase. We talked a lot about that in the last couple days with VMware, with its partner ecosystem. And, but the goal of getting to cloud smart, how does the R and D organization, how do, how are you helping customers really navigate that journey from the chaos that they're in, maybe they've inherited multi-cloud environment to getting to cloud smart. And what does cloud smart mean from your perspective >>Cloud? Smartt from my perspective means pragmatism. It means really thinking about what should I do here first, right? I don't want to just go somewhere because I can, right. I want to be really mindful of the steps I'm going to take. So one ex one example of this is I've met with a customer this morning and we were talking about using our vRealize network insight tool, because what that allows 'em to do is get a map of all of their application dependencies in their data center. And they can learn like, well, I can move this to the cloud or maybe I can't move this cuz it has all these other dependencies and it would be really difficult. So that's that's one example. It also means really thinking through issues around data sovereignty, you know, what do I wanna hold onto a customer? I just met with yesterday. They were talking about how valuable their data is and their services that they want to use via SA in the cloud. But then there's also services, which is their core research. They wanna make sure that they can maintain that in their data centers and maintain full control because they see researchers will leave. And now all of a sudden, so that intellectual property has actually gone with the person and they need to, they need to have, you know, better accountability there. >>Yeah. One of the things about that we discovered at our super cloud event was is that, you know, we kind didn't really kind of put too much structure on other than our, our vision. It's, it's not just SaaS on cloud and it's not just, multi-cloud, it's a new kind of application end state or reality that if you believe in digital transformation, then technology is everywhere. And like it in the old days, it powered the back office and then terminals and PCs and whatnot, wasn't powering the boardroom obviously or other business. But if, if it happens like that digital transformation, the company is the app, the app is the company. So you're all digital. So that means the operating expenses has to drive an income statement and the CapEx handled by the cloud provides a lot of goodness. So I think everyone's gonna realize that AWS and the hyperscalers are providing great CapEx gifts. They do all the work and you only pay when you've made your success. So that's a great business model. >>Absolutely >>That's and then combine that with open source, which is now growing so fast, going next level, the software industry's open source. That's not even a debate Mo in some circles, maybe like telco, cloud's got the CapEx. The new operating model is this cloud layer. That's going to transform the companies finally in a hundred percent. Okay. That's super cloud. If that's the case, does it really matter who provides the electricity or the power? It's the coders that are in charge. It's the developers that have to make the calls because if the application is the core, the developers are, are not only the front lines, they are the company. This is really kind of where the sea change is. So if, if we believe that, I'm sure you, you agree with that generally? >>Yeah, of >>Course. Okay. So then what's the VMware customer roadmap here. So to me, that's the big story here at the show is that we're at this point in time where the VMware customers are, have to go there >>A hundred percent, >>What's that path. What is the path for the VMware customer to go from here to there? And what's this order of operations or is there a roadmap? Can, can you share your thoughts on >>That? Yeah, I think part of it is, is with these disruptive technologies, you have to start small, you know, whether it's in your data center, into cloud, you have to build the own institutional knowledge of your team members in the organization. It's much easier than trying to attract outside talent, for least for many of our customers. So I think that's important. The other part of this when with the developer and control, like in my organization, I want my innovators to innovate any other noise around them. I don't want them to have to worry about it. And it's the same thing with our customers. So if your developers are building the technologies that is really differentiating your company, then things like security and cryptography shouldn't have to be things they worry about. So we've been doing a lot of work. Like one of the projects we announced this week was around being able to decouple cryptography from the applications themselves. And we can expose that through a proxy through service mesh. And that's really exciting because now it ops can make these changes. Our SecOps teams can make these changes without having to impact the application. So that's really key is focusing the developers on innovation and then really being mindful about how you can build the right automation around everything else. And certainly open source is key to all >>That. So that's so, so then if you, if that's happening, which I'm, I'm not gonna debate that then in essence, what's really going on here is that the companies are decomposing their entire businesses down to levels that are manageable completely different than the way they did them 20, 30 years ago. >>Absolutely. You, you, you could take a modular approach to how you're solving business problems. And we do the same thing with technology, where there might be a ML algorithms that we've developed that we're exposing as SA service, but then all of the interconnects around that service are open source and very flexible so that the businesses and the customers and the VMware partners can decide what's the right way to build a puzzle for a given problem. >>We were talking on day one, I was riffing with an executives. It was Ragu and Victoria. And the concept around cross cloud was if you get to this Nirvana state, which is we, people want to get to this or composability mode, you're not coding, you're composing cuz coding's kinda happening open source and not the old classic, write some code and write that app. It's more orchestrate, compose and orchestrate. Do you, what's your thoughts on >>That? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. And it's it's I would add one more part to it too, which is scope. You know, I think sometimes we see projects fail because the, the initial scope is just too big. You know, what is the problem that you need to solve, scope it properly and then continuously calibrate. So even like our customers have to listen to their customers and we have to be thinking about our customers' customers, right? Because that's really how we innovate because then we can really be mindful of a holistic solution for them. >>You know, Lisa, when we had a super cloud event, you know, one of the panels was called the innovators dilemma with a question mark. And of course everyone kinds of quotes that book innovators dilemma, but one of the panelists, Chris ho beaker on Twitter said, let's change the name from the innovator's dilemma to the integrator's dilemma. And we all kind of got chuckled. We all kind of paused and said, Hey, that's actually a good point. Yeah. If you're now in a cloud and you're seeing some of the ecosystem floor vendors out there talking in this game too, they're all kind of fitting in snapping in almost like modular, like you said, so this is a Lego game. Now it feels like, it feels like, you know, let's compose, let's orchestrate, let's integrate. Now I integrations API driven. Now you're seeing a lot more about API security in the news and we've been covering at least I've probably interviewed six companies in the past, you know, six months that are doing API security, who would've thought API, that's the link, frankly, with the web. Now that's now a target area for hackers. >>Oh. And that's such an innovation area for VMware, John. Okay. >>There it is. So, I mean, this is, again, this means the connected tissue is being attacked yet. We need it to grow. No one's debating that is wrong, but it's under siege. >>Yes. Yes. So something else we introduced this week was a project. We called project Trinidad. And the way, the way you can think about it is a lot of the anomaly detection software today is looking at point based anomalies. Like this API header looks funny where we, where we've gone further is we can look at full sequence based anomalies so we can learn the sequences of transactions at an application takes and really understand what is expected behavior within those API calls within the headers, within the payloads. And we can model legitimate application behavior based on what those expectations are. So like a, like a common sequence might be doing an e-commerce checkout, right? There's lots of operations that happen logging into the site, searching, finding a product, going through the cart. Right. All of those things. Right. So if something's out of sequence, like all of a sudden somebody's just trying to do a checkout, but they haven't actually added to the cart. Right. This just seems odd. Right. So we can start to, and that's a simplistic example, but we're able now to use our algorithms to model legitimate application behavior through the entire sequence of how applications behave and then we can start to trap on anomalies. That's very differentiating IP and, and we think it's gonna be really important for the industry. Yeah. >>Because a lot of the hacks, sometimes on the API side, even as a example, are not necessarily on the API, it's the business logic in them. That's what you're getting at here. Yes. The APIs are hard. Oh our APIs are secure. Right. Well, yeah, but you're not actually securing the business logic internally. That's what you're getting at. If I read >>That right. Or exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it, it's the thing it's right. It's great that you can, you can look at a header, but what's the payload, right? What is what's, what's the actual data flow, right. That's associated with the call and that's what we want to really hone in on. And that's just a, it's, it's a, it's a far different level of sophistication in being able to understand east west vulnerabilities, you know, log for JX voice and these kind of things. So we have some real, it's interesting technology >>There. Security conversations now are not about security there about defense ability because security's a state of time, your secure here, you're not secure or someone might be in the network or in the app, but can you defend yourself from, and in >>That's it, you know, our, our, our malware software, right. That we're building to prevent and respond has to be more dynamic than the threats we face. Right. And this is why machine learning is so essential in, in these types of applications. >>Let me ask you a question. So just now zooming out riffing here since day, three's our conversational day where we debate and just riff more like a podcast style. If you had to do a super cloud or build a NextGen cloud multi-cloud with abstraction layer, that's, you know, all singing and dancing and open everyone's happy hardware below it's working ISAs and then apps are killed. Can ass what's in that. What does it look like to you if you had to architect the, the ultimate super cloud enabler, that something that would disrupt the next 10 years, what would it look like and how does, and assuming, and trying to do where everybody wins go, you have 10 seconds. No, >>Yeah, yeah. So the, you know, first of all, there has to be open source at all of the intersections. I think that's really important. And, and this is, this goes from networking constructs to our database, as a service layers, you know, everything in between, you know, the, the, the participants should be able to win on merit there. The other part of super cloud though, that hasn't happened that I probably is the most important area of innovation is going to be decoupled control planes. We have a number of organizations building sovereign cloud initiatives. They wanna have flexibility in where their services physically run. And you're not going to have that with a limited number of control planes that live in very specific public cloud data centers. So that's an area, give >>An example of what a, a, a, a narrowly defined control plane is. >>Yeah, sure. So my database as a service layer, so the, the, the actual portal that the customer is going into to provision databases, right. Rep managed replication, et cetera. Right. I should be able to run that in a colo. I should be able to run that somewhere in region that is guaranteed, that I'm going to have data stay physically in region. You know, we still have some of these challenges in networking in terms of being able to constrain traffic flows and be able to predict and audit them within a particular region as well. >>It's interesting. You bring up region again, more complexity. You know, you got catalogs here, catalogs different. I mean, this is where the chaos really comes down. I mean, it's, it's advancing, but it's advancing the state of functionality, but making it hella complex, I mean, come on. Don't you think it's like pretty amazingly hard to reign in that? Well, or is it maybe you guys making it easier? I just think I just, my mind just went, oh my God, I gotta, I gotta provision to that region, but then it's gotta be the same over there. And >>When you go back to modular architecture constructs, it gets far easier. This has been really key for how VMware is even building our own clouds internally is so that we have a, a shared services platform for the different apps and services that we're building, so that you do have that modularized approach. Like I said, the, the examples of innovation projects I've shared have been really driven by the fact that, you know, what, I don't know how customers are gonna consume it, and I don't have to know. And if you have the right modular architecture, the right APIs around it, you don't have to limit a particular project or technology's future at the time you build >>It. Okay. So your super would have multiple control planes that you can move, manage with that within one place. I get that. What about the data control plane? That seems to be something that used to be the land grab in, in conversations from vendors. But that seems to be much more of a customer side, cuz if I'm a customer, I want my control plane data plane to be, you know, mine. Like I don't want to have anyone cuz data's gotta move around, gotta be secure. >>Oh exactly. >>And that's gonna be complicated. How does, how do you see the data planes emerging? >>Yeah. Yeah. We, we see an opportunity really around having a, a centralized view that can give me consistent indexing and consistent awareness of data, no matter where it resides. And then being able to have that level of integration now between my data services and my applications, because you're right, you know, right now we have data in different places, but we could have a future where data's more perpetually in motion. You know, we're already looking at time sensitive fabrics where we're expecting microservices to sometimes run in different cell towers depending on the SLA that they need to achieve. So then you have data parts that's going to follow, right? That may not always be in the same cloud data center. So there's, this is enormously complicated, not just in terms of meeting application SLAs, but auditing and security. Right. That makes it even further. So having these types of data layers that can give me a consistent purview of data, regardless of where it is, allow me to manage and life cycle data globally, that's going to be super important, I believe going forward. >>Yeah. Awesome. Well, my one last question, Lisa, gonna get a question in here. It's hard. Went for her. I'm getting all the, all the questions in, sorry, Lisa that's okay. What's your favorite, most exciting thing that you think's going on right now that people should pay attention to of all the things you're looking at, the most important thing that that's happening and maybe something that's super important that people aren't talking about or it could be the same thing. So the, the most important thing that you think that's happening in the industry for cloud next today and, and maybe something that you think people should look at and pay more attention to. >>Okay. Yeah, those are good questions. And that's hard to answer because there's, there's probably so much happening. I I've been on here before I've talked about edge. I still think that's really important. I think the value of edge soft of edge velocity being defined by software updates, I think is quite powerful. And that's, that's what we're building towards. And I would say the industry is as well. If you look at AWS and Azure, when they're packaging a service to go out to the edge it's package as a container. So it's already quite flexible and being able to think about how can I have a single platform that can give me all of this flexibility, I think is really, really essential. We're building these capabilities into cars. We have a version of our Velo cloud edge device. That's able to run on a ruggedized hardware in a police car today. We're piloting that with a customer. So there is a shift happening where you can have a core platform that can now allow you to layer on applications that you're not thinking about in the future. So I think that's probably obvious. A lot of people are like, yeah. Okay. Yes. Let's talk about edge, big deal. >>Oh it's, it's, it's big. Yes. It's >>Exploding, but >>It's complicated too. It's not easy. It's not obvious. Right. And it's merging >>There's new things coming every day. Yeah. Yeah. And related to that though, there is this kind of tension that's existing between machine learning and privacy and that's really important. So an area of investment that I don't think enough people are paying attention to today is federated machine learning. There's really good projects in open source that are having tangible impact on, in a lot of industries in VMware. We are, we're investing in a, in a couple of those projects, namely fate in the Linux foundation and open FFL. And in these use cases like the security product I mentioned to you that is looking at analyzing API sequence API call sequences. We architected that originally so that it can run in public cloud, but we're also leveraging now federated machine learning so that we can ensure that those API calls and metadata associated with that is staying on premises for the customers to ensure privacy. So I think those intersections are really important. Federated learning, I think is a, an area not getting enough attention. All right. All >>Right, Chris, thanks so much for coming on. Unfortunately we are out of time. I know you guys could keep going. Yeah. Good stuff. But thank you for sharing. What's going on in R and D the customer impact the outcomes that you're enabling customers to achieve. We appreciate your >>Insights. We're just getting started >>In, in early innings, right? Yeah. Awesome. Good stuff for guest and John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 2022. Our next guest joins us momentarily. >>Okay.

>> Okay, welcome back to the portion of the program for customer lightning talks, where we chat with Armis' customers for a rapid fire five minute session on their Cisco perspectives and insights into cybersecurity. First up is Tim Everson, CISO of Kalahari resorts and conventions. Let's get it going. Hi, Tim. Welcome to theCUBE and Armis program, managing risk across your extended surface area. >> Thanks for having me appreciate it. >> So let's get going. So unified visibility across the extended asset serves as key. You can't secure what you can't see. Tell me about what you're able to centralize, your views on network assets and what is Armis doing from an impact standpoint that's had on your business? >> Sure. So traditionally basically you have all your various management platforms, your Cisco platforms, your Sims, your wireless platforms, all the different pieces and you've got a list of spare data out there and you've got to chase all of this data through all these different tools. Armis is fantastic and was really point blank dropping in place for us as far as getting access to all of that data all in one place and giving us visibility to everything. Basically opened the doors letting us see our customer wireless traffic, our internal traffic, our PCI traffic because we deal with credit cards, HIPAA, compliance, all this traffic, all these different places, all into one. >> All right, next up, vulnerability management is a big topic, across all assets, not just IT devices. The gaps are there in the current vulnerability management programs. How has Armis vulnerability management made things better for your business and what can you see now that you couldn't see before? >> So Armis gives me better visibility of the network side of these vulnerabilities. You have your Nessus vulnerability scanners, the things that look at machines, look at configurations and hard facts. Nessus gives you all those. But when you turn to Armis, Armis looks at the network perspective, takes all that traffic that it's seeing on the network and gives you the network side of these vulnerabilities. So you can see if something's trying to talk out to a specific port or to a specific host on the internet and Armis consolidates all that and gives you trusted sources of information to validate where those are coming from. >> When you take into account all the criticality of the different kinds of assets involved in a business operation and they're becoming more wider, especially with edge in other areas, how has the security workload changed? >> The security workload has increased dramatically, especially in hospitality. In our case, not only do we have hotel rooms and visitors and our guests, we also have a convention center that we deal with. We have water parks and fun things for people to do. Families and businesses alike. And so when you add all those things up and you add the wireless and you add the network and the audio video and all these different pieces that come into play with all of those things in hospitality and you add our convention centers on top of it, the footprint's just expanded enormously in the past few years. >> When you have a digital transformation in a use case like yours, it's very diverse. You need a robust network, you need a robust environment to implement SaaS solutions. No ages to deploy, no updates needed. You got to be in line with that to execute and scale. How easy was Armis to implement ease of use of simplicity, the plug and play? In other words, how quickly do you achieve this time to value? >> Oh goodness. We did a proof of concept about three months ago in one of our resort locations, we dropped in an Armis appliance and literally within the first couple hours of the appliance being on the network, we had data on 30 to 40,000 devices that were touching our network. Very quick and easy, very drop and plug and play and moving from the POC to production, same deal. We, we dropped in these appliances in site. Now we're seeing over 180,000 devices touching our networks within a given week. >> Armis has this global asset knowledge base, it's crowdsourced an a asset intelligent engine, it's a game changer. It tracks managed, unmanaged IOT devices. Were you shocked when you discovered how many assets they were able to discover and what impact did that have for you? >> Oh, absolutely. Not only do we have the devices that we have, but we have guests that bring things on site all the time, Roku TVs and players and Amazon Fire Sticks and all these different things that are touching our network and seeing those in real time and seeing how much traffic they're using we can see utilization, we can see exactly what's being brought on, we can see vehicles in our parking lot that have access points turned on. I mean, it's just amazing how much data this opened our eyes to that you know it's there but you don't ever see it. >> It's bring your own equipment to the resort just so you can watch all your Netflix, HDMI cable, everyone's doing it now. I mean, this is the new user behavior. Great insight. Anything more you'd want to say about Armis for the folks watching? >> I would say the key is they're very easy to work with. The team at Armis has worked very closely with me to get the integrations that we've put in place with our networking equipment, with our wireless, with different pieces of things and they're working directly with me to help integrate some other things that we've asked them to do that aren't there already. Their team is very open. They listen, they take everything that we have to say as a customer to heart and they really put a lot of effort into making it happen. >> All right, Tim. Well, thanks for your time. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. Up next in this lightning talk session is Brian Gilligan, manager, security and Operations at Brookfield Properties. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Veeam on 2022 at the RS. Nice to be at the aria. My co-host Dave Nicholson here. We spend a lot of time at the Venetian convention center, formerly the sand. So it's nice to have a more intimate venue. I really like it here. George Burg is joining us. He's the vice president of data protection at vast data, a company that some of you may not know about. George. >>Welcome a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. >>So VAs is smoking hot, raised a ton of dough. You've got great founders, hard charging, interesting tech. We've covered a little bit on the Wikibon research side, but give us the overview of the company. Yeah, >>If I could please. So we're here at the, you know, the Veeam show and, you know, the theme is modern data protection, and I don't think there's any company that epitomizes modern data protection more than vast data. The fact that we're able to do an all flash system at exabyte scale, but the economics of cloud object based deep, cheap, and deep archive type solutions and an extremely resilient platform is really game changing for the marketplace. So, and quite frankly, a marketplace from a data protection target space that I think is, is ripe for change and in need of change based on the things that are going on in the marketplace today. >>Yeah. So a lot of what you said is gonna be surprising to people, wait a minute, you're talking about data protection and all flash sure. I thought you'd use cheap and deep disc or, you know, even tape for that or, you know, spin it up in the cloud in a, in a deep archive or a glacier. Explain your approach in, in architecture. Yeah. At a >>High level. Yeah. So great question. We get that question every day and got it in the booth yesterday, probably about 40 or 50 times. How could it be all flash that at an economic point that is the fitting that of, you know, data protection. Yeah. >>What is this Ferrari minivan of which you speak? >>Yeah, yeah, yeah. The minivan that goes 180 miles an hour, right. That, you know, it's, it's really all about the architecture, right? The component tree is, is somewhat similar to what you'll see in other devices. However, it's how we're leveraging them in the architecture and design, you know, from our founders years ago and building a solution that just not, was not available in the marketplace. So yeah, sure. We're using, you know, all flash QLC drives, but the technology, you know, the advanced next generation algorithms or erasure coding or rage striping allows us to be extremely efficient. We also have some technologies around what we call similarity, some advanced data reduction. So you need less, less capacity if you will, with a vast system. So that obviously help obviously helps us out tremendously with their economics. But the other thing is I could sell a customer exactly what they need. If you think about the legacy data protection market purpose built back of appliances, for example, you know, ALA, Adele, Aita, and HP, you know, they're selling systems that are somewhat rigid. There's always a controller in a capacity. It's tied to a model number right. Soon as you need more performance, you buy another, as soon as you need more capacity, you buy another, it's really not modular in any way. It's great >>Model. If you want to just keep, keep billing the >>Customer. Yeah. If, if that, if yeah. And, and I, I think, I think at this point, the purpose, you know, Dave, the purpose built backup appliance market is, is hungry for a change. Right. You know, there's, there's not anyone that has one. It doesn't exist. I'm not just talking about having two because of replication. I'm it's because of organic growth. Ransomware needs to have a second unit, a second copy. And just, and just scalability. Well, you >>Guys saw that fatigue with that model of, oh, you need more buy more, >>Right? Oh, without a doubt, you said we're gonna attack that. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. No, no, no. That's great. Without a doubt. So, so we can configure a solution exactly. To the need. Cause let's face it. Every single data center, every single vertical market, it's a work of art. You know, everyone's retention policies are different. Everyone's compliance needs are different. There might be some things that are self mandated or government mandated and they're all gonna be somewhat different. Right? The fact of the matter is the way that our, our architecture works, disaggregated shared everything. Architecture is different because when we go back to those model numbers and there's more rigid purpose built back of appliances, or, or maybe a raise designed specifically for data protection, they don't offer that flexibility. And, you know, I, I, I think our, our, our, our entry point is sized to exactly what the need is. Our ease of scalability. You need more performance. We just add another compute, another compute box, what we call our C box. If you need more capacity, we just add another data box, a D box, you know, where the data resides. And, you know, I, you know, especially here at Veeam, I think customers are really clamoring for that next generation solution. They love the idea that there's a low point of entry, but they also love the idea that, that it's easy to scale on demand, you know, as, as needed and as needed basis. >>So just, I wanna be just, I want to go down another layer on that architecturally. Cause I think it's important for people to understand. Sure, exactly what you're saying. When you're talking about scaling, there's this concept of the, of the sort of devil's triangle, the tyranny of this combination of memory, CPU and storage. Sure. And if you're too rigid, like in an appliance, you end up paying for things you don't need. Correct. When all I need is a little more capacity. Correct. All I need is a little more horsepower. Well, you wanna horsepower? No, you gotta buy a bunch of capacity. Exactly. Oh, need capacity. No, no. You need to buy expensive CPUs and suck a bunch of power. All I need is capacity. So what, so go through that, just a little more detail in terms of sure. How you cobble these systems together. Sure. My, the way my brain works, it's always about Legos. So feel free to use Legos. >>Yeah. We, so, so with our disaggregated solution, right. We've separated basically hardware from software. Right. So, so, so that's a good thing, right? From an economic standpoint, but also a design and architecture standpoint, but also an underlining underpinning of that solution is we've also separated the capacity from the performance. And as you just mentioned, those are typically relatively speaking for every other solution on the planet. Those are tied together. Right? Right. So we've disaggregated that as well within our architecture. So we, we again have basically three tier, tier's not the right word, three components that build out a vast cluster. And again, we don't sell like a solution designed by a model number. And that's typically our C boxes connected via NVMe over fabric to a D box C is all the performance D is all the capacity because they're modular. You can end up like our, our baseline product would start out as a one by one, one C box one D box, right? >>Connected again, via different, different size and Vme fabrics. And that could scale to hundreds. When we do have customers with dozens of C boxes, meeting high performance requirements, keep in mind when, when vast data came to market, our founders brought it to the market for high performance computing machine learning, AI data protection was an afterthought, but those found, you know, foundational things that we're able to build in that modularity with performance at scale, it behooves itself, it's perfect fit for data protection. So we see in clients today, just yesterday, two clients standing next to each other in the same market in the same vertical. I have a 30 day retention. I have a 90 day retention. I have to keep one year worth of full backups. I have to keep seven years worth of full backups. We can accommodate both and size it to exactly what the need is. >>Now, the moment that they need one more terabyte, we license into 100 terabyte increments so they can actually buy it in a sense, almost in arrears, we don't turn it off. We don't, there's not a hard cat. They have access to that capacity within the solution that they provide and they can have access immediate access. And without going through, let's face it. A lot of the other companies that we're both thinking of that have those traditional again, purpose-built solutions or arrays. They want you to buy everything up front in advance, signing license agreements. We're the exact opposite. We want you to buy for the need as, and as needed basis. And also because the fact that we're, multi-protocol multi-use case, you see people doing many things within even a single vast cluster. >>I, I wanna come back to the architecture if I, I can and just understand it better. And I said, David, Flo's written a lot about this on our site, but I've had three key meetings in my life with Mosia and I, and I you've obviously know the first week you showed up in my offices at IDC in the late 1980s said, tell me everything, you know about the IBM mainframe IO subsystem. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a short meeting. And then they came back a year later and showed us symmetric. I was like, wow, that's pretty impressive. The second one was, I gave a speech at 43 south of 42 south. He came up and gave me a big hug. I'm like, wow. He knows me. And the third one, he was in my offices at, in Mabo several years ago. And we were arguing about the flash versus spinning disc. And he's like, I can outperform an all flash array because we've tuned our algorithms for spinning disc. Everybody else is missing that. You're basically saying the opposite. Correct. We've turned tuned our algorithms to, for QC David Flos says Dave, there's a lot of ways to skin a cat in this technology industry. So I wanted to make sure I got that right. Basically you're skinning the cat with different >>Approach. Yeah. We've also changed really the approach of backup. I mean, the, the term backup is really legacy. I mean, that's 10, 12 years of our recovery. The, the story today is really about, about restore resiliency and recovery. So when you think about those legacy solutions, right, they were built to ingest fast, right? We wanna move the data off our primary systems, our, our primary applications and we needed to fit within a backup window. Restore was an afterthought. Restore was, I might occasionally need to restore something. Something got lost, something got re corrupted. I have to restore something today with the, you know, let's face it, the digital pandemic of, of, of cyber threats and, and ransomware it's about sometimes restoring everything. So if you look at a legacy system, they ingest, I'm sorry. They, they, they write very fast. They, they, they can bring the data in very quickly, but their restore time is typically about 20 to 25%. >>So their reading at only 20, 25% of their right speed, you know, is their rate speed. We flip the script on that. We actually read eight times faster than we write. So I could size again to the performance that you need. If you need 40 terabytes, an hour 50 terabytes an hour, we can do that. But those systems that write at 40 terabytes an hour are restoring at only eight. We're writing at a similarly size system, which actually comes out about 51 terabytes an hour 54 terabytes. We're restoring at 432 terabytes an hour. So we've broken the mold of data protection targets. We're no longer the bottleneck. We're no longer part of your recovery plan going to be the issue right now, you gotta start thinking about network connectivity. Do I have, you know, you know, with the, with our Veeam partners, do we have the right data movers, whether virtual or physical, where am I gonna put the data? >>We've really helped customer aided customers to rethinking their whole Dr. Plan, cuz let's face it. When, when ransomware occurs, you might not be able to get in the building, your phones don't work. Who do you call right? By the time you get that all figured out and you get to the point where you're start, you want to start recovering data. If I could recover 50 times faster than a purpose built backup appliance. Right? Think about it. Is it one day or is it 50 days? Am I gonna be back online? Is it one hour? Is it 50 hours? How many millions of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars were like, will that cost us? And that's why our architecture though our thought process and how the system was designed lends itself. So well for the requirements of today, data protection, not backup it's about data protection. >>Can you give us a sense as to how much of your business momentum is from data protection? >>Yeah, sure. So I joined VAs as we were talking chatting before I come on about six months ago. And it's funny, we had a lot of vast customers on their own because they wanted to leverage the platform and they saw the power of VAs. They started doing that. And then as our founders, you know, decided to lean in heavily into this marketplace with investments, not just in people, but also in technology and research and development, and also partnering with the likes of, of Veeam. We, we don't have a data mover, right. We, we require a data mover to bring us the data we've leaned in tremendously. Last quarter was really our, probably our first quarter where we had a lot of marketing and momentum around data protection. We sold five X last quarter than we did all of last year. So right now the momentum's great pipeline looks phenomenal and you know, we're gonna continue to lean in here. >>Describe the relationship with Veeam, like kind of, sort of started recently. It sounds like as customer demand. Yeah. But what's that like, what are you guys doing in terms of engineering integration go to market? >>Yeah. So, so we've gone through all the traditional, you know, verifications and certifications and, and, and I'm proud to say that we kind of blew the, the, the roof off the requirements of a Veeam environ. Remember Veeam was very innovative. 10, 12 years ago, they were putting flash in servers because they, they, they want a high performing environment, a feature such as instant recovery. We've now enabled. When I talked about all those things about re about restore. We had customers yesterday come to us that have tens of thousands of VMs. Imagine that I can spin them up instantaneously and run Veeam's instant recovery solution. While then in the background, restoring those items that is powerful and you need a very fast high performance system to enable that instant. Recovery's not new. It's been in the market for very long, but you can ask nine outta 10 customers walk in the floor. >>They're not able to leverage that today in the systems that they have, or it's over architected and very expensive and somewhat cost prohibitive. So our relationship with Veeam is really skyrocketing actually, as part of that, that success and our, our last quarter, we did seven figure deals here in the United States. We've done deals in Australia. We were chatting. I, I, I happened to be in Dubai and we did a deal there with the government there. So, you know, there's no, there's no specific vertical market. They're all different. You know, it's, it's really driven by, you know, they have a great, you know, cyber resilient message. I mean, you get seen by the last couple of days today and they just want that power that vast. Now there are other systems in the marketplace today that leverage all flash, but they don't have the economic solution that we have. >>No, your, your design anticipated the era that we're we're in right now from it, it anticipated the ability to scale in, to scale, you know, in >>A variety. Well, listen, anticipation of course, co coincidental architecture. It's a fantastic fit either way, either way. I mean, it's a fantastic fit for today. And that's the conversations that we're having with, with all the customers here, it's really all about resiliency. And they know, I mean, one of the sessions, I think it was mentioned 82 or 84% of, of all clients interviewed don't believe that they can do a restore after a cyber attack or it'll cost them millions of dollars. So that there's a tremendous amount of risk there. So time is, is, is ultimately equals dollars. So we see a, a big uptick there, but we're, we're actually continuing our validation work and testing with Veeam. They've been very receptive, very receptive globally. Veeam's channel has also been very receptive globally because you know, their customers are, you know, hungry for innovation as well. And I really strongly believe ASBO brings that >>George, we gotta go, but thank you. Congratulations. Pleasure on the momentum. Say hi to Jeff for us. >>We'll we'll do so, you know, and we'll, can I leave you with one last thought? Yeah, >>Please do give us your final thought. >>If I could, in closing, I think it's pretty important when, when customers are, are evaluating vast, if I could give them three data points, 100% of customers that Triva test vast POC, vast BVAs 100% Gartner peer insights recently did a survey. You know, they, they do it with our, you know, blind survey, dozens of vast customers and never happened before where 100% of the respondents said, yes, I would recommend VA and I will buy VAs again. It was more >>Than two respondents. >>It was more, it was dozens. They won't do it. If it's not dozens, it's dozens. It's not dozen this >>Check >>In and last but not. And, and last but not least our customers are, are speaking with their wallet. And the fact of the matter is for every customer that spends a dollar with vast within a year, they spend three more. So, I mean, if there's no better endorsement, if you have a customer base, a client base that are coming back and looking for more use cases, not just data protection, but again, high performance computing machine learning AI for a company like VA data. >>Awesome. And a lot of investment in engineering, more investment in engineering than marketing. How do I know? Because your capacity nodes, aren't the C nodes. They're the D nodes somehow. So the engineers obviously won that naming. >>They'll always win that one and we, and we, and we let them, we need them. Thank you. So that awesome product >>Sales, it's the golden rule. All right. Thank you, George. Keep it right there. VEON 20, 22, you're watching the cube, Uber, Uber right back.

[Music] does hardware still matter the attractiveness of software-defined models and services that are running in the cloud really make you wonder don't they but the reality is that software has to run on something and that something is hardware and history in the it business shows that the hardware that you purchase today is going to be up against the price performance of new systems in short order and these new systems will be far superior from a price performance standpoint within a couple of years so when it's time to purchase a new system look at whether it's a laptop a mainframe or a server configuring a leading edge product is going to give you the longest useful life of that new system now when i say a system what makes up a system well there's a lot of underlying technology components of course you have the processor you got memories you got storage devices there's networking like network interface cards there's interconnects and the bus architecture like pcie gen4 or whatever these components are constantly in a leapfrog mode like clock speeds and more cores and faster memories and ssds versus spinning disks and faster network cards the whole gamut so you see a constant advancement of the system components it's like it's a perpetual and sometimes chaotic improvement of the piece parts now i say chaotic because balancing these different components such that you're not wasting resources and that you're ensuring consistent application performance is a critical aspect of architecting systems so it becomes a game of like whack-a-mole meaning you're going to find the bottlenecks and you got to stamp them out it's a constant chase for locating the constraints designing systems that address these constraints without breaking the bank and optimizing all these components in a harmonious way hello everyone this is dave vellante of the cube and while these issues may not capture all the headlines except for maybe tom's hardware blog they're part of an important topic that we want to explore more deeply and to do so we're going to go inside some new benchmarking tests with our good friend kim lenar who's principal performance architect at broadcom kim always great to see you thanks so much for coming back on the cube hi there dave good to see you too thanks for having me on you bet hey so last time we met we talked about the importance of designing these balance systems i talked about that in my open and how solid state threw everything out of whack because the system was designed around spinning disk and we talked about nvme and we're here today with some new data an independent performance lab prowess consulting conducted some initial tests i've seen their their white papers on this stuff it compared the current generation of dell servers with previous models to quantify the performance impact of these new technologies and so before we get into that kim tell us a little about your background and your performance chops sure sure so i started my career about 22 years ago back when the ultra 160 scuzzy was out and just could only do about 20 megabytes a second um but i felt my experience really studying that relationship between the file systems and the application the os and storage layers as well as the hardware interaction i was absolutely just amazed with how you know touching one really affects the other and you have to understand that in order to be a good performance architect so i've authored dozens of performance white papers and i've worked with thousands of customers over the years designing and optimizing and debugging storage and trying to build mathematical models like project that next generation product where we really need to land but honestly i've just been blessed to work with really brilliant um and some of the most talented minds in the industry yeah well that's why i love having you on you you can go go really deep and so like i said we've got these these new white papers uh new test results on these dell servers what's the role people might be wondering what's the role broadcom plays inside these systems well we've been working alongside dell for for decades trying to design some of the industry's best uh storage and it's been a team effort in fact i've been working with some of these people for for you know multiple decades i know their their birthdays and their travel plans and where they vacation so it's been a really great relationship between broadcom and dell over the years we've been with them through the sata to the sas to the ssd kind of revolution now we're working from all the way back at that series five to their latest series 11 products that support nvme so it's been it's been really great but it's not just about you know gluing together the latest host or the latest disk interface you know we work with them to try and understand and characterize their customers and our customers applications the way that they're deployed security features management optimizing the i o path and making sure that when a failure happens we can get those raid volumes back optimal so it's been a really really great um you know role between between broadcom and dell got it okay let's get into the tested framework let's keep it at high level and then we're going to get into some of the data but but what did prowess test what was the workload what can you tell us about you know what they were trying to measure well the first thing is you have to kind of have an objective so what we had done was um we had them benchmark on one of the previous dell poweredge our 740xd servers and then we had them compare that to the rs750 and not just one r 750 there was two different configurations of the rs750 so we get to see kind of you know what gen 3 to gen 4 looks like um and upgrading the processor so we kind of got from like a gold system to maybe a platinum system we've added more controllers we add more drives um and then we said you know let's go ahead and let's do some sql transactional benchmarking on it and i'd like to go into why we chose that but you know microsoft sql server is one of the most popular database management platforms in the world and you know there are two kinds ones at oltp which processes records and business transactions and then there's kind of a an oltp which does analytical analytical processing and does a lot of complex queries and you know together these two things they drive the business operations and help kind of improve productivity it's a real critical part for the decision makers in a uh you know for for all of our companies so before we get in share the actual test results what specifically did prowess measure what were some of the metrics that we're going to see here we focused on the transactional workloads so we did something called a tpcc like and let me be really clear we did not execute a tpcc benchmark but it was a tpcc like benchmark and tpcc is one of the most mature standardized industry database benchmarks in the world and what it does is it simulates a sales model of a wholesale supplier so we can all kind of agree that you know handling payments and orders and status and deliveries and things like that those are those are really critical parts to running a business and ultimately what this results in is something called a new order so somebody might go on they'll log on they'll say hey is this available let me pay you um and then once that transaction is done it's called a new to order so they come up with something called a tpmc which is the new order transactions per minute now the neat thing is it's not just a one-size-fits-all kind of benchmark so you get to scale that in the way you scale the database you scale the size and the capacity of the database by adding more warehouses in our case we actually decided to choose 1400 warehouses which is a pretty standardized size and then you can also test the concurrency so you could start from one thread which kind of simulates a user all the way up to however many threads you want we decided to settle on 100 threads now this is very different from the generic benchmarking we're actually doing real work we're not just doing random reads and random rights which those are great they're critical they tell us how well we're performing but this is more like a paced workload it really executes sql i o transactions uh and you know those in order operations um are very different you do a read and then a write and then another read and those have to be executed in order it's very different from just setting up a q depth and a workers and it also provides very realistic and objective measurements that exercises not just the storage but the entire server all right let's get into some of the results so the first graphic we're going to show you is that what you were just talking about new orders per minute how should we interpret uh this graphic kim well i mean it looks like we won the waccamo game didn't we so we started out with with the baseline here the r740xd and we measured the new order transactions per minute on that we then set up the r 750 in the very first rs 750 and we have the very all the details are laid out in the paper that you just referenced there um but we started out with a single raid controller with eight drives and we measured that we got a 7x increase and then in the second test we actually added another rig controller and another eight drives and then we we kind of upgraded the the processor a little bit we were able to even double that over the initial one so and you know how do we get there that's really the more important thing and you know the the critical part of this understanding and characterizing the workload so we have to know what kind of components to balance you know where are your bottlenecks at so typically an oltp online transaction processing is a mix of transactions that are generally two reads to every one and they're very random and the way this benchmark works is it randomly accesses different warehouses it executes these queries when it executes a read query it pulls that data into memory well once the data is into memory any kind of transactions are acted on it in memory so the actual database engine does in memory transactions then you have something called a transaction log that has to record all those modifications down to non-volatile media and that's based on something um you know just to make sure that you have um all the data in case somebody pulls the plug or something you know catastrophic happens you want to make sure that those are recorded um and then every once in a while um all those in-memory changes are written down to the disk in something called a checkpoint and then we can go ahead and clear that transaction log so there's a bunch of sequence of of different kinds of i o um that happen during the course of an oltp kind of transaction so your bottlenecks are found in the processor and the memory and the amount of memory you know the latency of your disks i mean it really the whole gamut everything could be a bottleneck within there so the trick is to figure out where your bottlenecks are and trying to release those so you can get the the best performance that you possibly can yeah the sequence of events that has to take place to do a right we often we take it for granted okay the the next uh set of data we're going to look at is like you said you're doing reads you're doing right we're going to we're going to bring up now the the data around log rights and and log reads so explain what we're looking at here so as i mentioned earlier the even though the transactions happen in memory um those recorded transactions get committed down to down to the disk but eventually they get committed onto disk what we do first is we do something called a log right it's a transaction log right and that way it allows the it allows the transaction to go ahead and process so the trick here is to have the lowest latency fast disks for that log and it's very critical for your consistency and also for rollbacks and something called asset transactions and operations the log reads are really important also for the recovery efforts so we try to manage our log performance um we want low latency we want very high iops for both reads and for rights but it's not just the logs there's also the database disks and what we see is initially during these benchmarks there's a bunch of reads that are going into the database data um and then ultimately after some period of time we see something called a checkpoint and we'll see this big flurry of rights come down so you have to be able to handle all those flurry of rights as they come down and they're committed down to the disk so some of our important design considerations here are is can our processor handle this workload do we have enough memory and then finally we have three storage considerations we have a database disk we have log disk and then of course there's a temp db as well so because we have the industry leading raid 5 performance we were able to use a raid 5 for the database and that's something that you know just years ago was like whoa oh don't ever use raid 5 on your database that is no longer true our raid 5 is is fast enough and has low enough latency to handle database and it also helps save money um and then for the raid 10 we use that for a log that's pretty standardized so the faster your processor the more cores you know when you double the disk um and we get more performance so yeah you know we just figured out where the bottlenecks were we cleared them out we were able to double that that's interesting go back in history a little bit when raid 5 was all the rage uh emc at the time now of course dell when they announced symmetrics they announced it with with raid 1 which was mirroring and they did that because it was heavily into mainframe and transaction processing and while there was you know additional overhead of you do you need two disk drives to do that the performance really outweighed that and so now we're seeing with the advent of new technologies that you you're solving that problem um i i guess the other thing of course is is rebuild times and we've kind of rethought that so the next set of data that we're going to look at is is is how long it takes to rebuild uh around the raid time so we'll bring that up now and you can kind of give us the the insights here well yeah so you can see that we've been able to reduce the rebuild times and you know how do we do that well i can tell you me and my fellow architects we have been spending the last uh probably the last two years focusing on trying to improve the rebuild so we you know it's not just rebuilding faster it's also how to eloquently handle all the host operations you can't just tell those sorry i'm busy doing rebuilds you've got to be able to handle that because business continuity is a very critical component of that so um so we do that through mirroring and preparity data layouts and so the rebuild times if you can if you can do a really good balance of making sure that you are supplying a sufficient host io that we actually very quickly in the background as soon as as we have a moment we start implementing those rebuilds um you know during those law periods and so making sure that we do aggressive rebuilds by while allowing those business operations to continue have always been a real critical part but we've been working on that a lot over the last couple of generations that said we always tell our customers always have a backup that's that's a critical part to uh to business continuity plans great i wonder if we can come back to the components inside the system how does what broadcom is supplying to dell in these servers contribute to these performance results specifically kim okay so specifically um we we provide the perk storage controller and so the dell r740xd actually has their series 10 h740p controller whereas the h the r750 has the generation 11 perc 11 h755n um so we own those um you know in terms of of trying to make sure that they are integrated properly into the system provided the highest possible performance um but not just the storage controller i want to make sure that everybody knows that we also have our broadcom net extreme e series these are gen 4 pcie 25 gig do ported ethernet controllers so in you know in a critical true deployment it is a really important part of the e-commerce uh business solution so we do own the storage um for these as well as the networking excellent okay so we kind of we went deep inside into the system but let's up level why does this matter to an organization what's the business impact of all this tech coming to fruition we you know as everybody always references there's a massive growth of data and data is required for success it doesn't matter if you're a fortune 500 company or you're just a small to medium business you know it that critical data needs protected and needs protected without the complexity or the overhead or the cost of such hyper-converged infrastructures or sand deployments so we're able to do this on bare metal um and it really helps with the tco so you know and the other thing is nvme right now is the fastest growing storage nvme is so fast um as well from a performance perspective as well so that that dell r 750 with the two perc 11 controllers in it it had over 51 terabytes of storage in a single server you know and that's pretty impressive but there's um so many different performance advantages that the rs 750 provides for sql servers as well so they've got you know the gen 3 intel xeon scalable processors we've got ddr4 3200 memory you know the faster memory is very critical for those in memory transactions as well we have gen 4 pcie it really does justify an upgrade and i can tell you dave that a little over a year ago i had you know i had one of these delos 750 servers sitting in my own house and i was testing it and i was just amazed at the performance i was doing different tpcc and tpch and tpce tests on it and i was telling dell wow this is really this is amazing this server is doing so so well so i was so excited could not wait to see it in print so thank you to the prowess team um for actually showing the world what these servers can do combined with the broadcom storage now speaking of the prowess team when you read the white papers um it really is focused on this small and medium-sized business market so people might be wondering well wait a minute why wouldn't folks just spin up this compute in the cloud why am i buying servers well that's a really good question you know that still you know the studies have shown that the majority of workloads are still on-prem um and also you know there's a challenge here with the skill sets there's a lack of developers for cloud and you know cloud architects so keeping these in prem where you actually own it it really does help keep costs down um and just the management of these r750s are fantastic and the support that dell provides as well great kim i love having you on and we'd like to have you back we're going to leave it there for now but thanks so much i really appreciate your time thanks dave so look this is really helpful in understanding that at the end of the day you still need microprocessors and memories and storage devices controllers and interconnects that we you know we just saw pat gelsinger at the state of the union address nudging the federal government to support semiconductor manufacturing and you know intel is going to potentially match tsm's 100 billion dollar capex commitment and that's going to be a tailwind for the surrounding components you know including semiconductor you know component core infrastructure designers like broadcom now this is a topic that we care about and and like i said kim we're going to have you back and we plan to continue our coverage under the hood in the future so thank you for watching this cube conversation this is dave vellante and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>>Welcome everyone to our continuous coverage on the cube of AWS reinvent 2021. I'm your host, Dave Nicholson. And I am absolutely delighted to be joined by two folks from Unisys. I have a company that has been in the business of helping people with everything related to it for a very, very long time. We heard a talk about data monetization at modernization with ANU Priya, rom Raj vice president of cloud solution management at Unisys, along with ANU palms, the high VP and CTO of cloud solution engineering at UNISIS. And, uh, just so that we keep everything clear, I'm just going to call you on new and ANU Palm, and we'll all know who we're talking to. Sure. The funny thing is I'm David Nicholson or Dave Nicholson. Dave Vellante is one of the founders of Silicon angle, the cube. So usually it's two Dave's battling in >>So I get to be David and he's Dave typically. So we're completely, we're completely used to this, right? So, so tell me about what Eunice is doing UNISIS is doing in the arena of app modernization and data modernization and migration into cloud. You Unisys has a long and storied history of managing it in people's environments, you know, in the sort of on-premise world, as well as, as well as cloud now. But, uh, I knew tell us, tell us a little about what you'd assist is doing in this space. And then we'll, we'll double click and dive in. >>Um, so you, you're probably very, very familiar with the six RS of modernization, right? All the way from migration modernization, all the way from replatform rehost to, to the other side of the spectrum, refactor and rearchitect, right? So what is DASA is that it takes clients on that journey, right? So we see clients in different stages of that journey. There are clients that come to us, uh, recently brought on board a pipeline they're very early in their journey. They just talking about their first set of migrations. There are clients that have taken the leap and done 75% of their workload is on cloud, even for Unisys 95% of more than 95% of our workload actually runs on cloud public cloud. So different stages of the journey, but no matter where they are in the journey, really moving the needle on modernization. Right. And what did he mean by modernization? It's it's taking advantage of the innovation in cloud, whether it's seven containers are AI and bringing that to the client so that they can drive those business outcomes. That's what we are passionate about doing. And we can talk to you about a couple of clients where we've done this on a, but I like to unopened to add on. >>Sure. Yeah. And, and just, and before you dive in on a Palm, I want to hear specifically about the inhibitors that you're seeing, the things that causing friction, right. Movement to cloud. >>Yeah. So cloud of the transformative technology is as disruptive and it brings about lots of benefits that are very well understood, but not realized, um, lower total cost of ownership, higher security, innovation, and agility. But the challenges that you see for customers really benefit from moving and migrating to the cloud are related to security and compliance. That comes up to be the top pain point, followed by cost of ownership that are optimizations that you need to do before you can benefit from really leveraging the benefits from the cloud and then innovation and agility, how to drive that. And there are certain things around app and data about innovation, data analytics, AIML that really helps realize those values, but it needs a concerted effort and a drive and a push to transform your infrastructure from where you are today to really get to derive the true benefits from the cloud. >>And we do a cloud barometer study of about thousands of organizations from a Unisys perspective, Dave, and as a Oklahoma saying, um, more than 60% of our clients say security is the biggest inhibitor they want help with security. You >>No, you're saying the inhibitor to going to cloud is security >>To accelerating the cloud journey. They always are perceptive. >>Is that, is that hesitancy, uh, just perception or is it reality? >>That's a great question, >>Dave, and you don't have to be gentle with me. Like you might with a client, you know, you can, you can reach over and smack me and say get over it. You're going to be fine, Dave, >>Actually, I'm a new from leaned into it already. In many cases, when you, when you actually get to your cloud configuration, right. You probably be more secure in the cloud, but it's getting clients confident with that setup. That's where the rubber meets the road. Right. And that's where we come in to say, um, do you understand the shared responsibility model with cloud? What is the cloud provider do? What does being here at AWS reinvent? What has AWS bring to the table for security? This is what the client is responsible for. For example, application security is completely their client's responsibility, right? In most cases. So, um, just working with the clients so that they understand the shared responsibility model and then making sure we protect all the different layers of the stack, but security, right? Even, even as apps are developed, you need to have DevSecOps pipeline, right? So I didn't say dev ops, I said, dev sec ops, because we want to make security a part of developing your applications and deploying them in cloud as well. So that's what we bring to the table and making sure clients feel confident in, in accelerating their cloud journey. So >>You can deal with customers like me, who, who truly believed that my money is safer in a coffee, can buried in my backyard than it is in a bank, right. With all those banking people wandering around. Um, so when you start looking at an environment and you, and you look at the totality of an it infrastructure landscape, how do you go about determining what is the low hanging fruit? What makes sense to move first from is that, is that always an ROI discussion that comes into play and are your customers, I like to give like five questions at the same time to confuse you and are your customers expecting to immediately save money? And how big is the ROI conversation in this? >>Uh, great question. So a couple of things need to be considered first, just to understand where does the customer in the digital transformation journey are there green fee where they only have on premise data center and they're trying to get to the cloud, or they already have dipped their toes and move to the cloud. And in the cloud, how far in advance are they in their transformation journey, have them not have the done apps and data modernization? Do they have, uh, uh, management operations capability for day one and day two cloud ops and fin ops and security ops, and other leveraging the power of the cloud, the copious amounts of data that cloud brings to the table. Uh, the, the important thing to understand is that 80% of the tools that work in the on-prem do not work in the cloud. So you have to understand the very nature of the cloud and to deal with it differently. >>The same old tools and creeks will not work in the cloud. And I call it the three V's in the cloud, velocity volume, and variety of data is different in the cloud. So when you're talking about security, you need to look at the cloud infrastructure, posture management. You need to look at the cloud workload, pasture management. You need to look at the data that's available and analyze and harness the data using AIML and data analytics. So you need a new set of clicks as it were to really harness the power of the cloud to derive the benefits from increased security, lower cost of ownership and innovation and agility. >>And it makes sense. Yeah. >>I mean, I think you touched on touched on it, but fin ops, right. And you asked the question David on, is that the biggest driver in terms of savings to get to the, to the cloud. And I think it's definitely one of the bigger factors, um, because, and be believe to, to realize that we offer a fin op service. And if you know, Upserve is not just for the cloud, but choosing models at different, right. It's not like your data center planning. We talked about the tools being different. It's more than the tools, right? So you could do reserved instances or you could do spot instances, completely different ballgame with AWS, right. Or you could do AWS savings plans. Are you maximizing all of that? And even beyond that, are you thinking beyond that into like AWS container suppose, um, EKS, are you talking about seven less and that could completely change your bill and your total kind of cost of ownership. You talk Dave about past databases, right? So platform as a service, and that could completely change your total cost of ownership there as well. So are you really maximizing that? And do you have a service around that? Do you have a trusted partner who can help you with fin ops is I think an important consideration there? >>Well, I don't know. Pretty, I know you're dying to talk about a customer example, make it real for us. Give us an example of, uh, of this process inaction where UNISIS has helped a customer on the journey. >>Absolutely. Dave. So, um, uh, one example that comes to mind is a large public university and they've got about a half a million students and they've got 20 plus campuses around the U S in California, Sarah, I might've given myself away there. And, and, uh, in, into what they've done is, um, initially they are big into AWS and they are into their cloud, uh, higher into the IBM cloud journey, uh, big time. And they are a hybrid deployment at this point. And initially, uh, they, uh, when they subscribed to our fin ops service, uh, we, we brought in all the different, uh, thinking around working with different organizations, they need to like business planning, right? You need to know which is your most significant apps and what do you want to invest in them in terms of modernization and in tuning your AWS spend. And so we did that. And so we got them about a 33% cost saving and what they did was then they took, looked at all of their AWS accounts across the campuses and said, we want fin ops across all of them. Let's consolidate all of them. So that's, that's the power of a synopsis is about 33% saving right there. Well, that is >>Particularly exciting for me because I assume that they're going to be lowering my kid's tuition next year. So I'll be, I'll be looking forward to that. And now I know Palm, we know why she was kicked out of the, uh, you know, the, the intelligence agency can't keep a secret. Let's, let's, let's talk about an amusement park, uh, famous for its rodent, but I'm not going to say the name. So, so out upon talk about, uh, the technology space that we're in the midst of here at AWS reinvent, right? Um, each time we have a keynote, we're hit with an, almost a mind boggling number of announcements, right? Customers can't keep, keep this stuff straight. They're 575 different kinds of instances. It used to be, we have S3 and we have VC too. Right. Would you like, would you like one, or would you like both, right? How do you help customers make sense of this? >>Yeah, no, that's, that's a great question because, um, the cloud is, uh, I, as I said, cloud has three V's velocity, variety and volume of data and, and the new kinds of services that are available. Day-by-day, it's growing the keys to really figure out, again, map the business objectives that you as a customer or a company are trying to achieve, understand where you are in your digital transformation journey. And then based on the two, uh, and assess where you at and, and companies like Unisys can work with the customer to assess their, what I call the digital transformation posture, which will then give, uh, give us clear indications or recommendations on what are the next stages in the transformation of journey. So whether it's whether you want to improve your security posture, whether you want to improve your cost of ownership, posture, whether you want to go to go to the cloud and leverage DevSecOps to benefit from the innovation and agility, we can help you. >>Unisys has DevSecOps as a service, uh, containers as a service where we can help our customers and partners migrate to the cloud, modernize the apps. And again, based on research, that's out there, you can speed up app deployment and development by 60% by leveraging the power of the cloud. So the benefits out there for customers to get access to, it's a question of finding the right combination of people, process and technology to get you there. And Unisys being a very trusted advisor is certainly able to help you accelerate that journey and get you to meet your business outcomes. So me, >>Um, let me ask the two of you, what might be an uncomfortable question, and that is obviously Unisys is in the business of managing things that aren't in cloud. Also, you have very, very large existing customers that are spending money with you, right? And if they'll just stay still and not do anything and not change, you'll keep making money into the future. Aren't some of these things that you're doing as a trusted advisor, almost counterintuitive from a, from a finance perspective at Unisys, at least in the short term, how do you, how do you balance that? >>It's a, it's a great question, Dave, and for us, we are customer obsessed. So that's, I know one of the AWS principles and we, we live by that as well. Right? So customer comes first and doing the right thing by them, whether it is the total cost of ownership when it's getting the security posture, right. That comes first for us. And if, if moving them to a public cloud will help them achieve that. We will do that. Right. So even if it means that our bill is going to be lower, right. So we'll give you a great example there. Um, Eunice's, as you know, Dave has been in the mainstream business and we've got customers that are still on clear path, right? So even with those customers, we help them with both transitions. We can run clear path to the, on public cloud and we also help with modernization, right? So we always do the right thing by the customer. It's really the customer's tries in terms of what does the business warrant, how much business disruption are they willing to take as we do this modernization journey. And that's what determines us. And that's what makes us trusted advisers. Um, you're not looking out for the bottom line there in terms of how much our bill would be. Yup. >>Well, that's a, that's actually a great place to wrap up. Uh, I think it's hilarious that you mentioned mainframe since you were five years old, you gave me, you gave me a blank stare. When I mentioned stuff, Unisys was doing 20 years ago on a free auto Palm from Unisys. Thank you so much. It's a great point to close on. You're a trusted advisor when you're doing things that are truly in the customer's best interest and not just in your own company's best interests. I'm Dave Nicholson for the cube. We'd like to thank you for joining our continuous coverage at AWS reinvent 2021 stay tuned because we are your leader in hybrid tech event coverage.

>>Hello everyone. Thank you, add appreciating the studio. We're here at the cube here in cloud city telco DRS Cloud city. I'm Jeffrey Day Volonte. We're here for the next three days. Wall to wall live coverage. It's a physical event with a virtual program. It's hybrid. We're here with Daniel Royston, the Ceo of telco D. R. And the acting Ceo Toby, which is announced today. Great >>to see you. It's awesome to see you guys. >>Awesome to see how you doing, how you >>Feeling? I'm feeling congratulations. Right. 101 days ago, I didn't even think this doesn't exist. Right. And we got in contact with you guys and we said we knew there was always going to be a big virtual component and we invited you guys and here we are together. It's insane. >>Well we did the preview videos, but we're kind of walking through and document in the early stages. It all came together beautifully spectacular For the folks watching behind us is the most spectacular build out clouds. It's an ecosystem open concept. It feels like the Apple store meets paradise. Of course. We got the cube here in the set and we got the studio with all the command and control of adam there. So I gotta ask you with the connected keynotes going on right now. The connected world. Yeah. It's connected. We all know that everyone knows that what's, what's different now real quick before we get into the program, what's going on? >>Yeah. I think a big part of my messages and advocating it's more than just the network, Right? And I think telcos forever have relied on. That's all it is. That's what it's about. And I'm like, nope, you guys got to start focusing on your subscribers, right? And so the over the top players keep coming in and siphoning away their revenue and it's time for them to start focusing on us, right and making experience great. And I think that's what this is all about. >>So we're gonna get the news but I want to toss it to Katie. The roving reporter is going to give it a detail on how it all came together. So Katie take it away. >>Mhm We're here in Barcelona and so excited to be back in this beautiful city over at the convention center. The team is working hard putting the finishing touches to tell Cody are amazing cloud city booth at MwC Barcelona 2021. I'm sure you know the story of how this all came together as one of the biggest vendors Erickson pulled out of M. W. C. With just over 100 days until the start of the event. When this happened last year, it kicked off a tidal wave of departures and MwC was called off this year. We all wondered if MWC was going to be cancelled again and that's when Daniel Royston Ceo of Telco D. R. And Tito G swooped in and took over the booth all 6000 square meters of it. The plan turn the booth into cloud city, the epicenter of public cloud innovation at MWC crews have been working around the clock. Over 100 and 50 people have been on this construction site for over three weeks with covid testing every day to prevent outbreaks during the build and in 100 days, it's become just that Cloud city has over 30 vendors presenting over 70 demos with 24 private meeting areas. Cloud City Live is a virtual showcase and live broadcast studio featuring 50 guests from cloud Thought leaders around the world. They have telepresence robots for a more personalized experience and the Cloud city quest game with a chance to win more than $100,000 to gain access to live streams of our nightly concerts with rosario flores and rock legend Jon bon Jovi. And don't forget to visit cloud city dot telco D R dot com to join in on the fun Daniel Royston and Nacho Gomez, founder and Ceo of one of the key vendors in the construction of the booth gave us a behind the scenes tour of the booth. >>Nacho. We did it. Yeah, we did. It can't even touch because of Covid. Yeah, but look what we did. But right, 100 days ago I called and I said I'm taking over the Ericsson booth. What did you think? I know you were crazy but just a little bit crazy, realized that you were mortgages than I thought. So at the very, at the very beginning I thought, yeah, she's crazy. But then I couldn't sleep that night. But the next uh then I realized that it was a very good it's a great idea. Yeah super smart. So yeah we're gonna show everyone toward the booth. Yeah let's go. Let's go. Okay So how do we build such an amazing, beautiful building now? So this is we've made building inside a book. So it was very hard to find a glassful of facade. The roof is around 24 tones. Yeah so it's crazy crazy but we made it work and it's totally amazing. Yeah. Do you want to go to tragedy life? Do let's go. Okay so here we are Cloud city live. I know we're producing a whole live streaming tv show. We always knew because of covid that not everyone will be able to come to Mwc as we wanted to make sure that people can learn about the public cloud. So over here we have the keynote stage, we're gonna have awesome speakers talking all throughout M. W. C. People from AWS Microsoft, google vendors companies. So really really great content. And then over there we have the cube interviewing people again 15 minute segments, live streaming but also available on demand. And you can find all of this content on cloud city. Tell Cody are calm and it's available for anyone to you. Well, a lot of content. And what about the roberts? I never get them out. Come on. We remember 100 days ago we were locked down. So we came up with the idea of having robots for the people who cannot attend in person. I know right. We always knew that there was gonna be a big virtual component to MWC this year. So we bought 100 telepresence robots. It's a great way to have a more personal experience inside the boot. Just sign up for one on cloud city dot telco D r dot com and you can control it yourself. Right? So today we have Nikki with us, who's dialing in from the Philippines in Manila? Hello, Nicky. Hi there, how are you? I were great. Can you show us a twirl all gaining on us? Super cool. Yeah, it is. What an experience. So Nikki robots are not the only cool thing we have in cloud city. We also have super awesome concert. We have rosario flores on monday. Who's a latin grammy award winner. We have Jon bon Jovi, Jon bon Jovi on Tuesday, can't be changing telephone that a little bit of rock n roll and that's Tuesday. And on Wednesday we have DJ official, it's going to be a super party. Now if you play our cloud city quest on cloud city telco D R dot com you can participate in a live streaming concert and so I know a lot of people out there have been a lockdown. Haven't been able to be going to concerts. Things from austin texas, which is the live music capital of the world, How to have music. It would be so exciting is gonna be great. I'm getting hungry. Why don't we go to the restaurant? Let's go eat. Let's go. Yeah, Here is our awesome restaurant. I know it's called Cloud nine. Right? It's a place to come and sit down and relax now. Barcelona is known for its great food and I'm a foodie. So we had to have a restaurant. Should we go check out my secret bar? Let's go. Mhm. Yeah, here >>thanks to a R. And thank you Nacho if you're watching this at home, I'm so sorry you can't join us in person. However, let's not forget this is a hybrid event meaning we're bringing all the public cloud action right to you wherever in the world you might be. This includes the Pact cloud city live program. We've partnered with the cube Silicon angle Media's live streaming video studio to make sure that all of the keynotes, panel discussions, demos, case studies interviews and way more are available on demand so you can watch them whenever and wherever you want or you can live stream and enjoy all things cloud city as and when they happen. So for those of you not able to join us in, Barcelona, be sure to log in to cloud city live and catch all the action and don't miss the awesome concert Tuesday night with Jon bon Jovi available for free. If you participate in our cloud city quest game, I'll be here throughout MWc bringing you reports and updates. Stay >>tuned. Yeah. >>Mhm. Okay, we're back here on the cube on the floor at mobile world congress in cloud city telco DRS clouds. They were here with D. R. Of telco, D R. Danielle Rice and great to see you back, we're back. So the keynotes going on connected world, the big news here, I'll see the open shift that's happening is going open. Open ran, it's been a big thing. Open ran alliance. You're starting to see the industry come together around this clear mandate that applications are gonna be cloud native and the public cloud is just coming in like a big wave and people are gonna be driftwood or they'll be surfing the wave. Yeah, this is what's happening. >>Yeah, I think public cloud is an unstoppable megatrend. It's hit every other industry regulated industries like banking, right? Top secret industries like government. They all use the public cloud tells us the last, you know, standing old school industry and it's coming and I don't think we could have had an MWc without talking about open man. That's the other major shift. And so we're bringing both of those ideas here together in cloud city. So >>the big theme is telco transformation. Maybe we could start with the basics like paint a picture of what the telco infrastructure looks like, particularly the data center stuff because they all have big data centers >>because that's >>those are the candidates to go into the cloud explained to the audience. >>Well, do you have a time machine? I think if any of us were in tech in the late 90s and early 2000s, that's what telcos like today. Right. So for people outside of the industry don't know right there mostly still managing their own data centers, they're just sort of adopting virtualization. Some of the more advanced telcos are mostly virtualized public cloud. Is this idea that like this advanced thought and so yeah, I mean things are on premise, things are in silom, things don't use a P. I. S there all integrated with custom code. And so the transformation, we can all see it because we've lived it in other industries. And I'm bringing that to telco and say come along for the ride. It totally works and it's gonna be amazing. >>So it's hardened purpose built infrastructure. Okay. That ultimately parts of that need to go to the public cloud. Right. What parts do you see going first? >>I think all of it. Really. Yeah. And I think when you look at like dish in the W. S. Which was an announcement that came out about two months ago. Right. I mean dish was doing all these are FPs. Everyone knew about it. They were looking for a cloud native software and no one knew what they were. They knew a big part was open man. But their coupling open ran with AWS and deploying their parts of their network onto the public cloud and the whole industry is like wait we thought this was years away, right? Or number two, you're crazy. And I'm saying this is what I've been talking about guys. This is exactly what you can do, leverage the Capex over. Let's see. I think Amazon did $100 billion 2020 right, leverage that Capex for yourself. Get that infinite scalability right? It's going to, well we >>have, we have a saying here in the queue, we just made this up called D. R. That's your initial tucker. The digital revolution and the three Rs reset re platform and re factor. I think the observation we're seeing is that you're coming in with the narrative what everyone's kind of like they're waking up because they have to reset and then re platform with the cloud. But the opportunity is gonna be the re factoring, You're seeing the public cloud, do that already with the Enterprise Enterprises. Already re factoring has done that. Already done that now. Telcos the last area to be innovated by the cloud. >>Yeah, I think there's old school big, we're kind of on a hollowed ground here in the Ericsson booth that I took over, right? They bailed and I kind of made fun of them. I was like, they don't have anything to say, right, They're not going to go to the show. I'm like, this is this is a revolution that's happening in telco and I don't think the big guys are really interested in rewriting their software that frankly makes them billions and billions of dollars of revenue. And I'm like to use the public cloud. All of the software needs to be rewritten needs to be re factored and you've got to start training your teams on how to use it. They don't have any capability. The telcos, in terms of those skills hire the right people, retrain your teams, move your applications, rewrite them. And I think that's what we're talking, this is not a short journey, this is a 10 year journey. So >>let's fast forward to the future a little bit because when I look around cloud city, I see ecosystem everywhere. So as you well know, the telcos have generally done a poor job of attacking adjacent seas. So my question is can they go beyond should they go beyond connectivity or is that going to be the role of the ecosystem? >>Yeah, I think it's time that the telco starts to focus on their subscriber, right? It's been really easy for them to rely on the oligopoly of the network, Right? The network, we live in the United States, we see the 18 T Verizon T mobile five G network, five G network. Like what about us? Right. And it's really easy for the over the top players right, that come in and they're always, telcos are always complaining about being coming dumb pipes and I'm like, you don't focus on the customer, we would rather buy from an Apple and amazon if they provided a mobile service because the customer experience will be better. Right? They need to start focusing on us. They have great businesses but they want to make them better. They need to start focusing on the subscriber, so >>it's a partnership with the ecosystem then for them to go beyond just straight connectivity because you're right, those are the brands that we want to do business >>with. You know, there was a great survey, Peter Atherton who will be talking as a speaker I think um I can't remember when he's talking but he was talking about how there was a survey done, where would you rather get your mobile service from? And it had a couple of big names in telco and then of course the obvious, you know, consumer brands, the ones that we all know and it was like overwhelmingly would rather buy from an amazon or an apple. And I'm like, this is like if you guys don't change, right, if telco doesn't change they keep rolling out 60 and blah blah blah. It's about the network and I don't start making about the subscriber right? Those revenues are going to continue to erode and they just sit there and complain about the O. T. T. Players. Like it's time to fight back. Yeah, I own the subscriber >>relationship. It's a digital revolution and I think This event really encapsulates in my mind this hybrid world here because it's physical events back. It's been since 2019 winter that this event actually happened. >>Well no it was even longer than, well I guess winter it was February of 19, right? And so like you look at ericsson and some of the big names that dropped out of the show, the time they come back, three years will have passed three years, right? This is how you feel your sales funnel is how you connect with your customers right? Tokyo is a very global, you know experience and so you gotta, you gotta get in front of people and you got to talk a >>lot of change to its happened, look at just what public clouds done in 2.5 years. You imagine three years being just >>gone, right? And I think a lot of people back to edition A. W. S. I think the industry was a little bit surprised by that announcement. So I've been telling executives if you were surprised by that, if you think that's, you know, if you don't know how that's gonna work, you need to come to cloud cities, you start meeting all the vendors are here. We have over 30 vendors, 70 demos, right? People who are pushing the technology forward, you need to learn what's going on here. We have several dish vendors here. Come learn about open rand, come learn about public cloud. So >>we're tight on time today, but we're going to have you back and we want to get into the tech, Get it to open, ran a little bit, get into what 5G and beyond and how we're going to take advantage of that and monetize it and what that all means. >>And also we want to hear what's going on the hallways. I know you got a lot of your key noting, you're gonna be a lot of events, the yacht. You've got a lot of briefings, >>yep. Yeah, I've already had two meetings this morning. I shot a video. Um, I met with one of the world's largest groups and I met with a tiny little super app company. Right? So running the gamut, doing everything reporter >>now, we could be like our roaming >>reporter. You know, I love, I love talking to execs and telco getting their perspective on what is public cloud and where are they going, what are they thinking about? And you talked to people who really, really get it and you get people who are just nascent and everywhere in between and I love mwc it's going great. >>Daniel Rose and you are a digital revolution telco DDR. There's amazing. Davis has been fantastic. Again for the folks watching, this is a hybrid events, there's an online component and we're reaching out with our remote interviews to get people brought in and we're shipping this content out to the masses all over the world. It's gonna be really amazing cube coverages here. It's gonna be rocking you guys are doing great. I just want to give you a compliment that you guys just did an amazing job. And of course we've got adam in the studio with the team. So adam, I'm gonna pass it off back to you in the studio

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of Veem on 2020 brought to you by beam. >>Hi buddy. Welcome back to Veem on 2020. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes coverage of EMR. This is the first time we've done it. Virtual VIMANA. We've got the, the Veem power panel, bill large and CEO, Jim Kruger, the CMO, Danny Allen. Who's the CTO and senior vice president product strategy. All I have been on earlier guys. Great to see you. Thanks for coming back. digging out of the power panel. Appreciate it. Good. Thank you. Okay. I want to start off a bill. you're going to get a business update, you know we've so I talk a lot about COVID. We can go back to that, but you guys, Mmm. You know, as a private company, you divulge more information. Yeah. Then most private companies. And we appreciate that as an independent guys, if you would bring up that, that one slide, you know, you shared this publicly well earlier. >>I mean, you guys are in a, okay. Billion in revenue now, 21% annual recurring revenue growth. We're going to 75,000 customers, 97% year on year increase in your universal, uh, license bookings. Mmm. Everything seems to be happening. Bill. What, uh, what can you tell us? Well, we had eight. Yeah. We had a great first quarter also that we kicked off where we had, or a transaction with, um, insight venture partners, which, and written the middle of a right in the middle of that quarter. At the end of it, we had that activity that went on, I think would have disrupted, did the business. It didn't land for Q1, really excited about that. We announced our growth, so that here recently, uh, pumped into our row pumped into our second quarter. We, we managed to transition everybody out of offices. We probably add seven per cent of our work for 75% of our work course. >>It needs to move. Yeah, they did that. We had a fantastic April. We're having a very good may. So it's just a great start, uh, with a great customer base. So I'm really excited about it. Okay. You mentioned insight. We obviously covered that. Mmm. Boarded on that. Okay. Insight. They like growth, you know, not like the old school, private equity, you know, suck money out. They want growth options down the road, personality. Maybe it's a rule of 40 rule, you know, the type of company. So that's gotta be exciting, uh, for you guys and your employees. Yeah. I think it's pretty exciting. We've been around a few of us. Who've been around the insight team since 2002. So, uh, a very well known a group of individuals to us. Yeah. Uh, they are focused in the software space and know the infrastructure space really well. >>Uh, my triple that hour, um, our lead on the insight team and his, um, his staff is that's move into, as we move into it, stepping up and moving into our Andrew very revenue focus versus part of a total contract. Bye. Nice. A nice resource to have for things that we might want to do in the future related acquisitions. So we're really excited about it. I mean, if I'm in VC right now, I'm looking at SAS, I'm looking and the software I'm looking for companies that have a, uh, an annual recurring revenue model I'm looking for adoption then. Okay. Okay. And those kinds of cases. Yeah. Do you guys fit that bill? Yeah. There may be a larger size and obviously the early stage startup, but that's kind of the profile of the the company that you want to invest in, in the 2020s, isn't it? >>Absolutely. And I'd also say it's the kind of company we want to invest in, in the future as we go forward to bring in new technologies and expand markets, addressable market, uh, back to comments, we had discussions owner, what's it look like in 2030? And it's like, yeah. Places we're heading. Yeah. Okay. So Danny, Pat Gelsinger is famous on the cube for saying that, look, if you don't ride the waves, can it be yup. Driftwood. So what are the mega trends that you guys are riding, uh, today and that you're seeing in the future? Good. We'll keep you ahead of the pack. Well, we clearly talk a lot about cloud data management. So act two for us is not just moving from perpetual licensing to subscription and evolving with American at a business level. It's also at a technical level. And so we invested heavily, as you know, we demoed earlier today, Veeam backup for office three six, five version. >>Hi, an important point act two for us is not just product. There's also product delivery. That's version, hi of a relief of a product to chemo three years ago. So the backup profits, three 65, we showed you Veem backup for AWS. And you saw from Anton as well, uh, supporting Google cloud storage and supporting all of the major, um, providers. So for us to not just ride the wave, but actually be ahead of everyone else it's to embrace cloud data management and give the customers what they really need. Well, I think you guys are in a unique position too. I mean, you know, if you're, if you, you guys obviously sell on prem, but if you're, there are not prem infrastructure, the company that really living on box margins, um, you know, you can talk the cloud talk, but it's not necessarily a tailwind. Where are you guys? >>So Danny, how is cloud, wait, how cloud is it tailwind of, you know, versus some of the other legacy players? Well, Veem has always been, we always highlight simple, flexible, reliable, but one of the, the parts of flexible of course, is being software defined. And we've been software defined from the very beginning. And if you're in a world where you have to go take a box, plug it into the data center and rack and stack it and do hi, okay. Be there physically. You're not going to survive in this type of environment. So being software defined help desk, not only when the data center, but to help our customers as they go through that evolution. Okay. On prem too, maybe just storing backups in the cloud to actually running their workloads in the cloud. >>Well, so Jim, I want to, I want to turn it to you sort of, I'm thinking about the Veeam brand. Uh, I, we talked earlier about how you guys have always punched above your weight, famous parties and sofa, but now billion dollars now entering a new era. Oh, wait. Yeah. It's ironic that we're now doing virtual events. Okay. No big giant party this year, but I feel like, I mean, you guys are what 14 year old company now. Okay. Kind of growing up your three and your colleagues are bringing, you know, lots of adult supervision. How should we think about, okay. Okay. The or V brand going forward. Yeah, no, I think the, the beam brand is critically important because, uh, there's just a, such a strong affinity and connection with customers. And I think one of the challenges as you get larger and go from 1 billion to 2 billion, a lot of companies miss the beat relative to staying connected to their customers. >>And that's something that we're putting a tremendous amount of focused on that first slide that you see, you flashed up no 91% customer satisfaction, the 75 net promoter score, which is three and a half times industry average. I think our key to success is, is not only bringing great products, the market, but looking at the holistic picture relative to supporting customers and customer satisfaction, which is a key driver of the company. Uh, well, it will help us to continue to build on the brands and, and have, you know, the, the best brand in the market. Well, I w I want to come back to, is the good, the marketing was in the, the panel. I mean, you think about digital. We feel like the war is going to be one in digital in the next a decade. I take the, you pick the GNC example and you think about just even the term, like customer relationship management, you know, we all use CRM systems. >>Yeah. I'm not sure I want to a relationship. Okay. GNC, but I do know this, I want a good deal. Right. If they're going to make me an offer, I'm going to, I'm going to look at that. And, Oh, these other brands, uh, that's digital that is having infrastructure and data, that's obviously protected to be able to offer that at the right time. Awesome. Versus if they can take advantage of it and have the candles. I wonder if you could talk about it, what you see as a, a marketing pro just in terms of digital and, and that customer intimacy. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think it it's a multifaceted, I think one of the key things that, that, again, Veeam does, that's different than other, uh, companies is that we, we have a direct connection with our customers. So yeah, in our head of product management sends out an update every Sunday, and it goes into quite a bit of detail around sort of how to deploy this, how to deploy that. >>Oh, really? Yeah. Creating a digital journey for the customer from a marketing perspective, because yeah. Like within any situation, no, you, you don't want to talk to a salesperson right off the bat because you know, they're going to try to sell you. Uh, so you want to do something investigation, you need the, the contents and information to help you move along that journey until you get to the point where, okay, now it's time, I've kind of narrowed it down and I need to talk to someone to give me some more information. So I look at, you know, one of the key differentiators of Veem is, is that digital promise, uh, which I think from the founding of the company that rattler put into place, uh, here it is as forward. And when we continue to put a lot of focus on that digital experience, which I think gives us definitely a leg up on the competition. >>So bill, you got to place bets as the CEO. I'm interested in where you're placing bets. I mean, you've yeah. Okay. Some pretty substantial investments in the, your partner, a network. Oh, you've got some big names partners that are okay, you're moving a lot of products, you know, through those guys, obviously your heritage as a company is, is okay. Technical development. Uh, you, you are very successful sales organization, but where are you placing your chips on the table these days? And maybe especially in the context of, of this pandemic, if anything changed in your thinking. Yeah. Well, the vets will always be placed on the product side of it. Yeah. That's a, that's a big products. You go partners and you go our employees and those are the big bets that will make, what are we doing on the partner side work, continuing yeah. Pretty aggressive activity and making sure these partners have a simpler place as I've discussed. >>Yeah. Before to do business with them. It's more challenging the larger unit. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, we'll keep that focus on it. The product offering has been, again, always go back to any of our taglines. It just works, but it's in the lab, we're going to win. We're going to win that technical decision a process. And then we're putting it up pretty big bets on our employee base. We're all over the world. 4,300. Yeah. The, uh, I think the decisions we have, like a lot of companies have moving forward are going to be, where are you going to work from? You're going to work from that home office. Are you're going to combine it back into the office or are you going to not, you're just going to do, you know, you're going to go back the way things are. I don't think that's going to happen at all. >>So, so best will always be on bringing good product to market technical decisions. So let's, let's talk to Andy about the product. Um, I mean, you've, by saying you've grown up, you've gone from yeah. Relatively narrow yup. Portfolio to now expanding a lot of different use cases, many, many, you know, several different clouds on prem hybrid. Yeah. Et cetera. Mmm. How do you ensure it, Danny, from, uh, from, uh, product stamp, right. That you don't just get a, a collection of point product that you actually have yep. Platform that even, you know, for instance, your licensing model very easily bored. Yeah. That notion, um, how, how do you ensure that you're more of a platform if you will, than just that a bunch of selection of product, the answer to that would be focused maniacal focus. So it's interesting that you brought up licensing. So one of the things that we're very focused on is making that licensing can move across all these different types of infrastructure. >>So no, the universal license allows you to do that. You can move a workload from physical to virtual, to cloud, to back, um, the application services call with, uh, with his hang the license. But we also do that product level too. One of the interesting things that we've been focused on is it's something internally, we call it the Veeam integration platform that enables you to have a central common control playing across the entire organization. But yet you can deploy in the need of environments that make the most sense. So if you think about what we showed you earlier today with beam backup rate Ws, you're running on a, an interface that you deploy out of the AWS marketplace, but that product actually integrate back into Veem availability suite. So that's true of being backup for AWS, Roger being backup from Nutanix. Every time we, we add a new one capability platform, whether it's fast or virtual or wow, we make sure that it's still cause that central connection to the main control plane. >>And that's why we call this five data management, because it gives you that data management cross all of these different infrastructures. Okay. It's clearly not easy to do, but the focus that we have put on this result, then our customers, the class. Okay. Ultimately, so I want to ask you guys about culture, Jim, a start with you. I mean, a lot of people obviously, sorry, averted or asking, I'm still going to have parties. Uh, you got your two founders and sort of, you know, set good, you know, rat mirror would always be right there in the mix lap. Last one to leave, uh, you know, very hard charging and that's kind of steep. the Veem culture, but I'm interested in, and if, if there's been any sort of discernible change, as you get bigger and bigger, how you're able to maintain that culture, you know, w what are some of the things that you want to, I want to keep, and maybe some of the things that you want to evolve. >>Yeah, no great question. And I think culture is, um, I'm a big believer. Yeah. That culture can really differentiate a company in the marketplace. And I think themes culture, uh, in the past has really done that effectively. And I think that's, you know, it shows in the success of the company. So I definitely see it as, you know, as my job, along with the rest of the executive team continued to, to carry that torch forward. Uh, one of the things that I learned coming to beam was, was really winning the hearts and minds of, of the, the, you know, the customers that you're serving. And so that, that can be anything from a party, uh, being totally open to your customers, listening to your customers. I've given them different channels to give you a feedback and just being a company that's easy to do business with. I think it's critically important. And those are some of the key things from a cultural perspective. Uh, that's how we want to carry forward. You mentioned car charging, absolutely being, being aggressive in the marketplace, uh, but bringing solutions to market that really hit the sweet spot. Oh. Relative to customer need, I think is again, one of the, the cultural pieces and that maniacal focus on customer satisfaction, which is absolutely key. >>So, uh, well, I, I wonder bill, if you could comment, maybe in this context, you know, part of your job of course, is Tam expansion traditionally been a, a European based company moving. So the U S I'm curious as to what effect that will have both culturally, you know, and on Tam as well. You're extremely successful, uh, in, in overseas. Oh, of course. So there's maybe even more penetration within the U S and obviously, you know, throughout the call, we've certainly talked a lot about cloud, but maybe your thoughts on it. Okay. Yeah, no, thanks very much. Hopefully you see no impact on culture, in the sense of our move from a European headquarters to a U S headquarters. We definitely felt it important to bring it and U S headquarters in place. We now have moved all us shareholders. Uh, so it's really our culture, but built on yeah. >>Core values back in 2012, that really the everything else branches off of innovate and iterate it's about everybody sells. We clearly add that yeah. A goal for everyone in the company and yeah. And the fact that we also want to win. So we'll fight hard to win bringing it to the U S okay. A lot of our competitors are based in the U S we think we can put up, uh, even though we've got great numbers against all our competitors, we'll even bring the fight much harder. Now that we're in the United States as a headquarter place, change nothing else internationally, globally. So Danny, every I'll five or seven years or so, you know, Gartner or IDC or whomever, but the service is that we just did a survey. Yeah. X percent of the customers are going to rethink their backup. That is in the next 24 months. >>You see that literally every half a decade. Um, so w w what's what's the driving that now, I mean, certainly cloud is a, is it which factor? Sure. Edge. We're going to be talking about the edge for the next many, many years. And then, and it's really going to start to drive revenue at some point kind of like the cloud was 10 years ago. Uh, but so talk about how you guys sort of stay relevant in that conversation and what customers should be about in terms of those transitions. Well, you know, every customer says I'm going to reevaluate my backup solution five or seven years, but the reality is what's happened. Yeah. Industry itself goes through transition. So we go from physical to virtual and as they go to virtual, for example, they say, Hey, I can't use my legacy providers. So I'm going to choose a new one. >>They choose Veeam. And then of course, we go to cloud and we're going to go to containers and we're going to go to edge. And every time he goes through those iterations, there is an opportunity four, the next generation of wow. Form, uh, to emerge. And so beam's focus here is to make sure that we're ahead of those trends to make sure we're thinking ahead of our customers. So right now, for example, you know, I, I spent an hour in order to, in the amount of time thinking about cloud and containers so that when the customer gets there, when they get the edge, when they get through all of these things, but they have a data management platform that protects them. And step one is always going to be the same. I always say the step one for, for every iteration of infrastructure is just ingest the data because you need to protect it. >>It's only after you protected and begin to manage it, be integrated into the business. Can you be into unleashed, but we go through this cycle over and over again. And ultimately it's the, it's the, the vendor, it's the partner that is most trusted, that wins as Jim alluded to our NPS scores for themselves, our customer base. Great, sorry, uh, self our, our intimacy with the customers. Great. Awesome. So, yeah, as long as we keep that close connection, then we think we're well positioned to the lead as we go through the next iteration of infrastructure. Okay. Let's talk about the competition, Danny. Let's stay with you. Okay. Okay. You've got some, well-funded not even startups anymore. Know the companies that are kind of going after the base. You've got a huge install base okay. Of legacy companies. I mean, I think it's easier for, for some of those guys to attack, you know, sort of a box space, the solution, you guys are more software, but I'm sort of interested in, in your take Danny on the shiny new toys and that have obviously have momentum in the marketplace. >>Yeah. You know, the, the shiny new toys, they come out with a solution that is very packaged up and black box. You can't actually, uh, customize it very much for the user need. And that's, we don't believe that that's going to work in the longterm. And the reason I say that, okay, the pandemic we're in, if you can't go into the data center to rack and stack a box, if you can't actually working with the infrastructure that's already in place, then you're not positioned to work well in the longterm. And, and so we have this unfair advantage we've been around for over a decade. We integrate with over 45 different it's storage vendors. That's not including the wild vendors, you know, all of our partners. And so we do have an unfair advantage with a history of all of these integrations, but, but that flexibility is really what our customers need. >>They don't want to be law into the data center. They don't know two, three years from now, their strategy might change. They might say, take the workload, moving to the cloud. And so if your whole focus is on selling your customers, something that I used them to their data center, that in itself is a challenge. And being software defined we're, we're well positioned to make future for any evolutions that happen in the market. Okay. So we're in a good place. I'm, you know, well, knock on wood, but I think we're going to keep going. Yeah. That's an interesting answer. Not one that I expected. Okay. Got it. Makes sense. In the context. Good QA we had with Andy Jassy a while ago. Yeah. Kind of pushing them on, you know, the zillion API APIs. And he basically had a similar answer. Obviously cloud services is different, but essentially saying, we don't know where the market's going. >>So we want to have very granular roll. Yeah. You're kind of a primitive level, uh, so that we have that flexibility and maybe there's trade off, you know, sometimes just in terms of what you called out of the box, but it's a very handy Jessie like answer, it sort of strikes me. Hm. Well, it's certainly true that the, you know, customers don't know a year from now, uh, they've been using that hardware, but a year from now two years from now, we run into another market impediment. They might want that money back. They might want, you might want flexibility to expand into it, different geography or take advantage of it, the advantage of the elasticity of the cloud and buying a piece of hardware. Just the very fact that you buy hardware that essentially ties you into that hardware, at least three years, probably being software defined. >>You can continue to reuse and leverage all the assets that you've already had committing to a lock-in okay. Period of time. So, so from a, from a marketing standpoint, Jim strategy, brand customer intimacy, what sure you're ready. Well, Dan, you already talked a little bit about it in terms of, uh, you know, kind of the, the three cornerstones of, of, of how we think our simplicity, flexibility and reliability. And, you know, as bill talked about, you know, when, when we get into now into a customer, and if they're testing us out trial in us out nine times out of 10, we're going to win, uh, because they see, they see those three key things and those three key things, uh, we hear on a daily basis from our customers and how important that is. So we continue to build out on each of those, uh, the challenges, keeping it simple. >>And that's an area that we have to continue to focus on. Uh, but I think those are the key differentiators for us going forward. I think the flexibility piece as the integration with all the storage, our ecosystem of partners, well, we have, I think, close to 40 partners that are sponsoring, uh, the on here. Uh, so that's a, that that's a key differentiator because we, we work with basically everybody we're agnostic, uh, and again, just easy to do business with an, a true partner. Okay. I got it. I got one more question for Danny and then I want to, I want to ask, well, it was, but okay. Guys, feel free to chime in on this one as well. But some of the things we haven't talked about, well, Danny, uh, containers protecting containers, uh, the edge, you know, these are all sort of emerging opportunities. >>I know you've got some, yes. You know, on the container side, the edge is early days. There's, you know, whole new models of, you know, potentially a lot of data going to be, we created unclear how much it's going to have to be persisted, but certainly would that much data, you know, the IDC forecasts, a lot of it's going to have to be. So your thoughts on some of those other emerging trends that we haven't talked. Okay. Well, the key to this segment of America are our partners. Trust us. We're thinking about this ahead of when they will actually need it. And you're right. I think we're early days in containers. I think we're early days in edge. We don't know, you know, we have a partner ducks unlimited where they're storing data for 60 years, use it from IOT sensors and they keep it for 60 years because they don't know in the future, if that data is going to be relevant. >>And so our focus is to make sure that we're ahead of our customer base in terms of thinking of it. And then yeah, making sure that our platform supports what they need as they need it. You want to be careful about going too far in advance sometimes in the industry to hear about, you know, people who are talking about magic 60 Dustin's solving, okay. Crazy problems that our customers don't actually have. We're very pragmatic. We want to make sure that problems that we're addressing that are platform fundamentally addresses where they are today. And then also be in those discussions with them about where they're going to be tomorrow. Well, maybe some of that magic pixie dust go, go into the COVID vaccine. That would be good. >>They'll bring us home. So, you know, the virtual forklifts are breaking down, came on 2220. What are the big takeaways from Europe? Your first Vivaan as CEO, we've been to many, um, you know, I know, but w what are the big takeaways as the, as the virtual trucks are pulling away? Yeah. Thanks very much for asking that question. We, uh, you know, we did do our first VM on, in 2014, and I can still remember when rat came, I mean said, let's, let's do this. And it's like, Oh, you've got it. Excuse me. This is going to cost a fortune. Why would we ever end? And then he's obviously right. It continues to be right. So, Hey, the story about Veem is gross. And when you're growing, you got funds available. People interested you to innovate. You mentioned containers. Danny did also at Kubernetes and, you know, we've got our forensic cast and that are here with us. >>And yeah, those are all important relationships and will continue to develop relationships. Yes. Cool., uh, we've supported, we've got great customers. we have a gross engine. We're going to continue that we don't plan on being comfortable with where we are. We'll continue to enter it in, go after it. Mmm. Additional Tam, but we'll also take care of that core base we came from. So I'm really excited about yeah. And a lot of great breakout sessions. Uh, I keep, um, right. Yeah. Coobernetti's was on, there was a lot of great ones. I did like the one though. And it was like, fall in love with tape all over again. So when I first saw that they brought it, I went running from my age, correct dates and my John Fogarty NCCR, I found one. Uh, so, uh, had to get readjusted to not. So in any event, I do think we like to have a lot of fun. >>You'll see that we get back. Yeah. Yeah. See where we go. As far as the virtual versus it, an onsite. Yeah. A in the future, we landing on site when, and if so, you'll and you're there. You'll cool. We'll be at the party. Yeah, indeed. And I, but I do think there's going to be some learnings that we carry forward and, you know, I think for awhile and maybe even perfect quite a long time, there'll be some kind of hybrid going on with the same deliver, delivering a hybrid world. Guys. Thanks so much for coming to the cube, making this a successful power panel. It was really a pleasure having you. Great. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. Keep it right. There are tenuous coverage, the mom, 2024, right back.

from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat last year in 2019 IBM made the biggest M&A move of the year with a 34 billion dollar acquisition of red hat it positioned IBM for the next decade after what was a very tumultuous tenure by CEO Ginni Rometty who had to shrink in order to grow unfortunately she didn't have enough time to do the grille part that has now gone toward Arvind Krishna the new CEO of IBM this is Dave Volante and I'm here with Stu minimun and this is our Red Hat keynote analysis is our 7th year doing the Red Hat summit and we're very excited to be here this is our first year doing Stu the Red Hat summit post IVM acquisition we've also got IBM think next week so what we want to do for you today is review what's going on at the Red Hat summits do you've been wall-to-wall with the interviews we're gonna break down the announcements IBM had just announced its quarter so we get some glimpse as to what's happening in the business and then we're gonna talk about going forward what the prognosis is for both IBM and Red Hat well and Dave of course our audience understands there's a reason why we're sitting farther apart than normal in our studio and you know why we're not in San Francisco where the show is supposed to be this year last year it's in Boston Red Hat summit goes coast-to-coast every year it's our seventh year doing the show first year doing it all digital of course our community is always online but you know real focus you know we're gonna talk about Dave you know you listen to the keynote speeches it's not the as we sit in our preview it's not the hoopla we had a preview with pork or mayor ahead of the event where they're not making big announcements most of the product pieces we're all out front it's open source anyway we know when it's coming for the most part some big partnership news of course strong customer momentum but a different tenor and the customers that Red Hat's lined up for me their interview all talking you know essential services like medical your your energy services your communication services so you know real focus I think Dave both IBM and right making sure that they are setting the appropriate tone in these challenging times yeah I mean everybody who we talked to says look at the employees and safety comes first once we get them working from home and we know that they're safe and healthy we want to get productive and so you've seen as we've reported that that shift to the work from home infrastructure and investments in that and so now it's all about how do we get closer to clients how do we stay close to clients and be there for them and I actually have you know business going forward you know the good news for IBM is it's got strong cash flow it's got a strong balance sheet despite you know the acquisition I mean it's just you know raise some more you know low low cost debt which you know gives them some dry powder going forward so I think IBM is gonna be fine it's just there's a lot of uncertainty but let's go back to your takeaways from the Red Hat Summit you've done you know dozens of interviews you got a good take on the company what are you top three takeaways - yeah so first of all Dave you know the focus everybody has is you know what does Red Hat do for the cloud story for IBM OpenShift especially is absolutely a highlight over 2,000 customers now from some really large ones you know last year I interviewed you know Delta you've got you know forward and Verizon up on stage for the keynote strong partnership with Microsoft talking about what they're doing so OpenShift has really strong momentum if you talk about you know where is the leadership in this whole kubernetes space Red Hat absolutely needs to be in that discussion not only are they you know other than Google the top contributor really there but from a customer standpoint the experience what they've built there but what I really liked from Red Hat standpoint is it's not just an infrastructure discussion it's not OPM's and containers and there's things we want to talk about about VMs and containers and even server lists from Red Hat standpoint but Red Hat at its core what it is it they started out as an operating system company rel Red Hat Enterprise Linux what's the tie between the OS and the application oh my god they've got decades of experience how do you build applications everything from how they're modernizing Java with a project called Korkis through how their really helping customers through this digital transformation I hear a similar message from Red Hat and their customers that I hear from Satya Nadella at Microsoft is we're building lots of applications we need to modernize what they're doing in Red Hat well positioned across the stack to not only be the platform for it but to help all of the pieces to help me modernize my applications build new ones modernize some of the existing ones so OpenShift a big piece of it you know automation has been a critical thing for a while we did the cube last year at ansible fest for the first time from Red Hat took that acquisition has helped accelerate that community in growth and they're really Dave pulling all the pieces together so it's what you hear from Stephanie shirasu ironically enough came over from IBM to run that business inside a Red Hat well you know now she's running it inside Red Hat and there's places that this product proliferate into the IBM portfolio next week when we get where it I didn't think I'm sure we'll hear a lot about IBM cloud packs and look at what's underneath IBM cloud packs there's open shift there's rel all those pieces so you know I know one of the things we want to talk about Davis you know what does that dynamic of Red Hat and IBM mean so you know open shift automation the full integration both of the Red Hat portfolio and how it ties in with IBM would be my top three well red hat is now IBM I mean it's a clearly part of the company it's there's a company strategy going forward the CEO Arvind Krishna is the architect of the Red Hat acquisition and so you know that it's all in on Red Hat Dave I mean just the nuance there of course is the the thing you hear over and over from the Red Hatters is Red Hat remains Red Hat that cultural shift is something I'd love to discuss because you know Jim Whitehurst now he's no longer a Red Hat employee he's an IBM employee so you've got Red Hat employees IBM employees they are keeping that you know separation wall but obviously there's flowing in technology and come on so come on in tech you look at it's not even close to what VMware is VMware is a separate public company has separate reporting Red Hat doesn't I mean yes I hear you yo you got the Red Hat culture and that's good but it's a far cry from you know a separate entity with full transparency the financials and and so I I hear you but I'm not fully buying it but let's let's get into it let's take a look at at the quarter because that I think will give us an indication as to how much we actually can understand about RedHat and and again my belief is it's really about IBM and RedHat together I think that is their opportunity so Alex if you wouldn't mind pulling up the first slide these are highlights from IBM's q1 and you know we won't spend much time on the the the IBM side of the business although we wanted to bring some of that in but hit the key here as you see red hat at 20% revenue growth so still solid revenue growth you know maybe a little less robust than it was you know sequentially last quarter but still very very strong and that really is IBM's opportunity here 2,200 clients using red hat and an IBM container platforms the key here is when Ginni Rometty announced this acquisition along with Arvind Krishna and Jim Whitehurst she said this is going to be this is going to be cash flow free cash flow accretive in year one they've already achieved that they said it's gonna be EPS accretive by year two they are well on their way to achieving that why we talked about this do it's because iBM has a huge services organization that it can plug open shift right into and begin to modernize applications that are out there I think they cited on the call that they had a hundred ongoing projects and that is driving immediate revenue and allows IBM to from a financial standpoint to get an immediate return so the numbers are pretty solid yeah absolutely Dave and you know talking about that there is a little bit of the blurring a line between the companies one of the product pieces that came out at the show is IBM has had for a couple of years think you know MCM multi cloud management there was announced that there were actually some of the personnel and some of the products from IBM has cut have come into Retta of course Red Hat doing what they always do they're making it open source and they're it's advanced cluster management really from my viewpoint this is an answer to what we've seen in the kubernetes community for the last year there is not one kubernetes distribution to rule them all I'm going to use what my platforms have and therefore how do I manage across my various cloud environments so Red Hat for years is OpenShift lives everywhere it sits on top of VMware virtualization environments it's on top of AWS Azure in Google or it just lives in your Linux farms but ACM now is how do I manage my kubernetes environment of course you know super optimized to work with OpenShift and the roadmap as to how it can manage with Azure kubernetes and some of the other environments so you know you now have some former IBM RS that are there and as you said Dave some good acceleration in the growth from the Red Hat numbers we'd seen like right around the time that the acquisition happened Red Hat had a little bit of a down quarter so you know absolutely the services and the the scale that IBM can bring should help to bring new logos of course right now Dave with the current global situation it's a little bit tough to go and be going after new business yeah and we'll talk about that a little bit but but I want to come back to sort of when I was pressing you before on the trip the true independence of Red Hat by the way I don't think that's necessarily a wrong thing I'll give an example look at Dell right now why is Dell relevant and cloud well okay but if Dell goes to market says we're relevant in cloud because of VMware well then why am I talking to you why don't I talk to VMware and so so my point is that that in some regards you know having that integration is there is a real advantage no you know you were that you know EMC and the time when they were sort of flip-flopping back and forth between integrated and not and separate and not it's obviously worked out for them but it's not necessarily clear-cut and I would say in the case of IBM I think it's the right move why is that every Krista talked about three enduring platforms that IBM has developed one is mainframe that's you know gonna here to stay the second was middleware and the third is services and he's saying that hybrid cloud is now the fourth and during platform that they want to build well how do they gonna build that what are they gonna build that on they're gonna build that an open shift they they're there other challenges to kind of retool their entire middleware portfolio around OpenShift not unlike what Oracle did with with Fusion when it when it bought Sun part of the reason - pod Sun was for Java so these are these are key levers not necessarily in and of themselves you know huge revenue drivers but they lead to awesome revenue opportunities so that's why I actually think it's the right move that what IBM is doing keep the Red Hat to the brand and culture but integrate as fast as possible to get cash flow or creative we've achieved that and get EPS accretive that to me makes a lot of sense yeah Dave I've heard you talk often you know if you're not a leader in a position or you know here John Chambers from Cisco when he was running it you know if I'm not number one or number two why am I in it how many places did IBM have a leadership position Red Hat's a really interesting company because they have a leadership position in Linux obviously they have a leadership position now in kubernetes Red Hat culturally of course isn't one to jump up and down and talk about you know how they're number one in all of these spaces because it's about open source it's about community and you know that does require a little bit of a cultural shift as IBM works with them but interesting times and yeah Red Hat is quietly an important piece of the ecosystem let me let me bring in some meteor data Alex if you pull up that that's that second slide well and I've shown this before in braking analysis and what this slide shows in the vertical axis shows net score net score is a measure of spending momentum spending velocity the the horizontal axis is is is called market share it's really not market share it's it's really a measure of pervasiveness the the mentions in the data set we're talking about 899 responses here out of over 1200 in the April survey and this is a multi cloud landscape so what I did here Stu I pulled on containers container platforms of container management and cloud and we positioned the companies on this sort of XY axis and you can see here you obviously have in the upper right you've got Azure in AWS why do I include AWS and the multi cloud landscape you answered that question before but yesterday because Dave even though Amazon might not allow you to even use the word multi cloud you can't have a discussion of multi cloud without having Amazon in that discussion and they've shifted on hybrid expect them to adjust their position on multi-cloud in the future yeah now coming back to this this this data you see kubernetes is on the kubernetes I know is another company but ETR actually tracks kubernetes you can see how hot it is in terms of its net score and spending momentum yeah I mean Dave do you know the thing the the obvious thing to look at there is if you see how strong kubernetes is if IBM plus red hat can keep that leadership in kubernetes they should do much better in that space than they would have on with just their products alone and that's really the lead of this chart that really cuts to the chase do is you see you see red Red Hat openshift has really strong spending momentum although I will say if you back up back up to say April July October 18 19 it actually was a little higher so it's been pushed down remember this is the April survey that what's ran from mid-march to mid April so we're talking right in the middle of the pandemic okay so everybody's down but nonetheless you can see the opportunity is for IBM and Red Hat to kind of meet in the middle leverage IBM's massive install base in its in its services presence in its market presence its pervasiveness so AKA market share in this rubric and then use Red Hat's momentum and kind of meet in the middle and that's the kind of point that we have here with IBM's opportunity and that really is why IBM is a leader in at least a favorite in my view in multi cloud well Dave if you'd look two years ago and you said what was the competitive landscape Red Hat was an early leader in the kubernetes you know multi-cloud discussion today if you ask everybody well who's doing great and kubernetes you have to talk about all the different options that amazon has Amazon still has their own container management with ACS of course IKS is doing strong and well and Amazon whatever they do they we know they're going to be competitive Microsoft's there but it's not all about competition in this space Dave because you know we see Red Hat partnering across these environments they do have a partnership with AWS they do have you know partnership with you know Microsoft up on stage there so where it was really interesting Dave you know one of the things I was coming into this show looking is what is Red Hat's answer to what VMware is really starting to do in this space so vSphere 7 rolled out and that is the ga of project Pacific so taking virtualization in containers and putting them together Red Hat of course has had virtualization for a long time with KVM they have a different answer of how they're doing openshift virtualization and it rather than saying here's my virtual environment and i can also do kubernetes on it they're saying containers are the future and where you want to go and we can bring your VMs into containers really shift them the way you have really kind of a lift and shift but then modernize them Dave customers are good you know you want to meet customers where they are you want to help them move forward virtualization in general has been a you don't want to touch your applications you want to just you know let it ride forever but the real the real driver for companies today is I've got to build new apps I need to modernize on my environment and you know Red Hat is positioning and you know I like what I'm hearing from them I like what I'm hearing from my dad's customers on how they're helping take both the physical the virtual the containers in the cloud and bring them all into this modern era yeah and and you know IBM made an early bet on on kubernetes and obviously around Red Hat you could see actually on that earlier slide we showed you IBM we didn't really talk about it they said they had 23% growth in cloud which is that they're a twenty two billion dollar business for IBM you're smiling yeah look good for IBM they're gonna redefine cloud you know let AWS you know kick and scream they're gonna say hey here's how we define cloud we include our own pram we include Cano portions of our consulting business I mean I honestly have no idea what's in the 22 billion and how if they're growing 22 billion at 23% wow that's pretty awesome I'm not sure I think they're kind of mixing apples and oranges there but it makes for a good slide yeah you would say wait shouldn't that be four billion you added he only added two or three billion you know numbers can tell a story but you can also manipulate but the point is the point is I've always said this near term the to get you know return on this deal it's about plugging OpenShift into services and modernizing applications long term it's about maintaining IBM and red-hats relevance in the hybrid cloud world which is I don't know how big it is it's a probably a trillion-dollar opportunity that really is critical from a strategy standpoint do I want to ask you about the announcements what about any announcements that you saw coming from Red Hat are relevant what do we need to know there yeah so you know one of the bigger ones we already talked about that you know multi cloud manager what Red Hat has the advanced cluster management or ACM absolutely is an era an area we should look VMware Tong's ooh Azure Ark Google anthos and now ACM from Red Hat in partnership with IBM is an area still really early Dave I talked to some of the executives in the space and say you know are we going to learn from the mistakes of multi vendor management Dave you know you think about the CA and BMC you know exactly of the past will we have learned for those is this the right way to do it it is early but Red Hat obviously has a position here and they're doing it um did hear plenty about how Red Hat is plugging into all the IBM environments Dave Z power you know the cloud solutions and of course you know IBM solutions across the board my point of getting a little blue wash but hey it's got to happen I think that's a smart move right you know we talked about you know really modernizing the applications in the environments I talked a bit about the virtualization piece the other one if you say okay how do I pull the virtualization forward what about the future so openshift serverless is the other one it's really a tech preview at this point it's built off of the K native project which is part of the CNC F which is basically how do I still have you know containers and kubernetes underneath can that plug into server list order server let's get it rid of it everything so IBM Oracle Red Hat and others really been pushing hard on this Kay native solution it is matured a lot there's an ecosystem growing as how it can connect to Asher how it can connect to AWS so definitely something from that appdev piece to watch and Dave that's where I had some really good discussions with customers as well as the the Red Hat execs and their partners that boundary between the infrastructure team and the app dev team they're hoping to pull them together and some of the tooling actually helps ansible is a great example of that in the past but you know others in the portfolio and lastly if you want to talk a huge opportunity for Red Hat IBM and it's a jump ball for everyone is edge computing so Red Hat I've talked to them for years about what they were doing in the opened stack community with network function virtualization or NFV Verizon was up on stage I've got an interview for Red Hat summit with Vodafone idea which has 300 million subscribers in India and you know the Red Hat portfolio really helping a lot of the customers there so it's the telco edge is where we see a strong push there it's definitely something we've been watching from the you know the big cloud players and those partnerships Dave so you know last year Satya Nadella was up on the main stage with Red Hat this year Scott Guthrie you know there he's at every Microsoft show and he's not the red head show so it is still ironic for those of us that have watched this industry and you say okay where are some of the important partnerships for Red Hat its Microsoft I mean you know we all remember when you know open-source was the you know evil enemy for from Microsoft and of course Satya Nadella has changed things a lot it's interesting to watch I'm sure we'll talk more at think Dave you know Arvind Krishna the culture he will bring in with the support of Jim Whitehurst comes over from IBM compared to what Satya has successfully done at Microsoft well let's talk about that let's let's talk about let's bring it home with the sort of near-term midterm and really I want to talk about the long term strategic aspects of IBM and Red Hat's future so near-term IBM is suspended guidance like everybody okay they don't have great visibility some some some things to watch by the way a lot of people are saying no just you know kind of draw draw a red line through this quarter you just generally ignore it I disagree look at cash flow look balance sheets look at what companies are doing and how they're positioning that's very important right now and will give us some clues and so there's a couple of things that we're watching with IBM one is their software business crashed in March and software deals usually come in big deals come in at the end of the quarter people were too distracted they they stopped spending so that's a concern Jim Cavanaugh on the call talked about how they're really paying attention to those services contracts to see how they're going are they continuing what's the average price of those so that's something that you got to watch you know near-term okay fine again as I said I think IBM will get through this what really I want to talk about to do is the the prospects going forward I'm really excited about the choice that IBM made the board putting Arvind Krishna in charge and the move that he made in terms of promoting you know Jim Whitehurst to IBM so let's talk about that for a minute Arvind is a technical visionary and it's it's high time that I VM got back to it being a technology company first because that's what IBM is and and I mean Lou Gerstner you know arguably save the company they pivoted to services Sam Palmisano continue that when Ginny came in you know she had a services heritage she did the PWC deal and IBM really became a services company first in my view Arvind is saying explicitly we want to lead with technology and I think that's the right move of course iBM is going to deliver outcomes that's what high-beams heritage has been for the last 20 years but they are a technology company and having a technology visionary at the lead is very important why because IBM essentially is the leader prior to Red Hat and one thing mainframes IBM used to lead in database that used to lead in storage they used to lead in the semiconductors on and on and on servers now they lead in mainframes and and now switch to look at Red Hat Red Hat's a leader you know they got the best product out there so I want you to talk about how you see that shift to more of a sort of technical and and product focus preserving obviously but your thoughts on the move the culture you're putting Jim as the president I love it I think it was actually absolutely brilliant yeah did Dave absolutely I know we were excited because we you know personally we know both of those leaders they are strong leaders they are strong technically Dave when I think about all the companies we look at I challenge anybody to find a more consistent and reliable pair of companies than IBM and Red Hat you know for years it was you know red hat being an open-source company and you know the way their business model said it it's not the you know Evan flow of product releases we know what the product is going to be the roadmaps are all online and they're gonna consistently grow what we've seen Red Hat go from kind of traditional software models to the subscription model and there are some of the product things we didn't get into too much as to things that they have built into you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux and expanding really their cloud and SAS offerings to enhance those environments and that that's where IBM is pushing to so you know there's been some retooling for the modern era they are well positioned to help customers through that you know digital transformation and as you said Dave you and I we both read the open organization by Jim lighters you know he came in to Red Hat you know really gave some strong leadership the culture is strong they they have maintained you know really strong morale and I talked to people inside you know was their concern inside when IBM was making the acquisition of course there was we've all seen some acquisitions that have gone great when IBM has blue washed them they're trying to make really strong that Red Hat stays Red Hat to your point you know Dave we've already seen some IBM people go in and some of the leadership now is on the IBM side so you know can they improve the product include though improve those customer outcomes and can Red Hat's culture actually help move IBM forward you know company with over a hundred years and over 200,000 employees you'd normally look and say can a 12,000 person company change that well with a new CEO with his wing and you know being whitehurst driving that there's a possibility so it's an interesting one to watch you know absolutely current situations are challenging you know red hats growth is really about adding new logos and that will be challenged in the short term yeah Dave I I love you shouldn't let people off the hook for q2 maybe they need to go like our kids this semester is a pass/fail rather than a grid then and then a letter grade yeah yeah and I guess my point is that there's information and you got to squint through it and I think that look at to me you know this is like Arvin's timing couldn't be better not that he orchestrated it but I mean you know when Ginny took over I mean was over a hundred million a hundred billion I said many times that I beams got a shrink to grow she just ran out of time for the Gro part that's now on Arvind and I think that so he's got the cove in mulligan first of all you know the stocks been been pressured down so you know his tenure he's got a great opportunity to do with IBM in a way what such an adela did is doing at Microsoft you think about it they're both deep technologists you know Arvind hardcore you know computer scientist Indian Institute of Technology Indian Institute of Technology different school than Satya went to but still steeped in in a technical understanding a technical visionary who can really Drive you know product greatness you know in a I would with with Watson we've talked a lot about hybrid cloud quantum is something that IBM is really investing heavily in and that's a super exciting area things like blockchain some of these new areas that I think IBM can lead and it's all running on the cloud you know look IBM generally has been pretty good with acquisitions they yes they fumbled a few but I've always made the point they are in the cloud game IBM and Oracle yeah they're behind from a you know market share standpoint but they're in the game and they have their software estate in their pass a state to insulate them from the race to the bottom so I really like their prospects and I like the the organizational structure that they put in place in it by the way it's not just Arvind Jim you mentioned Paul Cormier you know Rob Thomas has been been elevated to senior VP really important in the data analytic space so a lot of good things going on there yeah and Dave one of the questions you've been asking and we've been all talking to leaders in the industry you know what changes permanently after the this current situation you know automation you know more adoption of cloud the importance of developers are there's even more of a spotlight on those environments and Red Hat has strong positioning in that space a lot of experience that they help their customers and being open source you know very transparent there I both IBM and Red Hat are doing a lot to try to help the community they've got contests going online to you know help get you know open source and hackers and people working on things and you know strong leadership to help lead through these stormy weathers so Stuart's gonna be really interesting decade and the cube will be here to cover it hopefully hopefully events will come back until they do will be socially responsible and and socially distant but Stu thanks for helping us break down the the red hat and sort of tipping our toe into IBM more coverage and IBM think and next week this is Dave alotta for Stu minimun you're watching the cube and our continuous coverage of the Red Hat summit keep it right there be back after this short break you [Music]

>> Paige: Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us today for the virtual Vertica BDC 2020. Today's breakout session is entitled, Vertica next generation architecture. I'm Paige Roberts, open social relationship Manager at Vertica, I'll be your host for this session. And joining me is Vertica Chief Architect, Chuck Bear, before we begin, I encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait, just type your question or comment, in the question box that's below the slides and click submit. So as you think about it, go ahead and type it in, there'll be a Q&A session at the end of the presentation, where we'll answer as many questions, as we're able to during the time. Any questions that we don't get a chance to address, we'll do our best to answer offline. Or alternatively, you can visit the Vertica forums to post your questions there, after the session. Our engineering team is planning to join the forum and keep the conversation going, so you can, it's just sort of like the developers lounge would be in delight conference. It gives you a chance to talk to our engineering team. Also, as a reminder, you can maximize your screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slide. And before you ask, yes, this virtual session is being recorded, and it will be available to view on demand this week, we'll send you a notification, as soon as it's ready. Okay, now, let's get started, over to you, Chuck. >> Chuck: Thanks for the introduction, Paige, Vertica vision is to help customers, get value from structured data. This vision is simple, it doesn't matter what vertical the customer is in. They're all analytics companies, it doesn't matter what the customers environment is, as data is generated everywhere. We also can't do this alone, we know that you need other tools and people to build a complete solution. You know our database is key to delivering on the vision because we need a database that scales. When you start a new database company, you aren't going to win against 30 year old products on features. But from day one, we had something else, an architecture built for analytics performance. This architecture was inspired by the C-store project, combining the best design ideas from academics and industry veterans like Dr. Mike Stonebreaker. Our storage is optimized for performance, we use many computers in parallel. After over 10 years of refinements against various customer workloads, much of the design held up and serendipitously, the fact that we don't store in place updates set Vertica up for success in the cloud as well. These days, there are other tools that embody some of these design ideas. But we have other strengths that are more important than the storage format, where the only good analytics database that runs both on premise and in the cloud, giving customers the option to migrate their workloads, in most convenient and economical environment, or a full data management solution, not just the query tool. Unlike some other choices, ours comes with integration with a sequel ecosystem and full professional support. We organize our product roadmap into four key pillars, plus the cross cutting concerns of open integration and performance and scale. We have big plans to strengthen Vertica, while staying true to our core. This presentation is primarily about the separation pillar, and performance and scale, I'll cover our plans for Eon, our data management architecture, Mart analytic clusters, or fifth generation query executer, and our data storage layer. Let's start with how Vertica manages data, one of the central design points for Vertica was shared nothing, a design that didn't utilize a dedicated hardware shared disk technology. This quote here is how Mike put it politely, but around the Vertica office, shared disk with an LMTB over Mike's dead body. And we did get some early field experience with shared disk, customers, well, in fact will learn on anything if you let them. There were misconfigurations that required certified experts, obscure bugs extent. Another thing about the shared nothing designed for commodity hardware though, and this was in the papers, is that all the data management features like fault tolerance, backup and elasticity have to be done in software. And no matter how much you do, procuring, configuring and maintaining the machines with disks is harder. The software configuration process to add more service may be simple, but capacity planning, racking and stacking is not. The original allure of shared storage returned, this time though, the complexity and economics are different. It's cheaper, even provision storage with a few clicks and only pay for what you need. It expands, contracts and brings the maintenance of the storage close to a team is good at it. But there's a key difference, it's an object store, an object stores don't support the API's and access patterns used by most database software. So another Vertica visionary Ben, set out to exploit Vertica storage organization, which turns out to be a natural fit for modern cloud shared storage. Because Vertica data files are written once and not updated, they match the object storage model perfectly. And so today we have Eon, Eon uses shared storage to hold Vertica data with local disk depot's that act as caches, ensuring that we can get the performance that our customers have come to expect. Essentially Eon in enterprise behave similarly, but we have the benefit of flexible storage. Today Eon has the features our customers expect, it's been developed in tune for years, we have successful customers such as Redpharma, and if you'd like to know more about Eon has helped them succeed in Amazon cloud, I highly suggest reading their case study, which you can find on vertica.com. Eon provides high availability and flexible scaling, sometimes on premise customers with local disks get a little jealous of how recovery and sub-clusters work in Eon. Though we operate on premise, particularly on pure storage, but enterprise also had strengths, the most obvious being that you don't need and short shared storage to run it. So naturally, our vision is to converge the two modes, back into a single Vertica. A Vertica that runs any combination of local disks and shared storage, with full flexibility and portability. This is easy to say, but over the next releases, here's what we'll do. First, we realize that the query executer, optimizer and client drivers and so on, are already the same. Just the transaction handling and data management is different. But there's already more going on, we have peer-to-peer depot operations and other internode transfers. And enterprise also has a network, we could just get files from remote nodes over that network, essentially mimicking the behavior and benefits of shared storage with the layer of software. The only difference at the end of it, will be which storage hold the master copy. In enterprise, the nodes can't drop the files because they're the master copy. Whereas in Eon they can be evicted because it's just the cache, the masters, then shared storage. And in keeping with versus current support for multiple storage locations, we can intermix these approaches at the table level. Getting there as a journey, and we've already taken the first steps. One of the interesting design ideas of the C-store paper is the idea that redundant copies, don't have to have the same physical organization. Different copies can be optimized for different queries, sorted in different ways. Of course, Mike also said to keep the recovery system simple, because it's hard to debug, whenever the recovery system is being used, it's always in a high pressure situation. This turns out to be a contradiction, and the latter idea was better. No down performing stuff, if you don't keep the storage the same. Recovery hardware if you have, to reorganize data in the process. Even query optimization is more complicated. So over the past couple releases, we got rid of non identical buddies. But the storage files can still diverge at the fifth level, because tuple mover operations are synchronized. The same record can end up in different files than different nodes. The next step in our journey, is to make sure both copies are identical. This will help with backup and restore as well, because the second copy doesn't need backed up, or if it is backed up, it appears identical to the deduplication that is going to look present in both backup systems. Simultaneously, we're improving the Vertica networking service to support this new access pattern. In conjunction with identical storage files, we will converge to a recovery system that instantaneous nodes can process queries immediately, by retrieving data they need over the network from the redundant copies as they do in Eon day with even higher performance. The final step then is to unify the catalog and transaction model. Related concepts such as segment and shard, local catalog and shard catalog will be coalesced, as they're really represented the same concepts all along, just in different modes. In the catalog, we'll make slight changes to the definition of a projection, which represents the physical storage organization. The new definition simplifies segmentation and introduces valuable granularities of sharding to support evolution over time, and offers a straightforward migration path for both Eon and enterprise. There's a lot more to our Eon story than just the architectural roadmap. If you missed yesterday's Vertica, in Eon mode presentation about supported cloud, on premise storage option, replays are available. Be sure to catch the upcoming presentation on sizing and configuring vertica and in beyond doors. As we've seen with Eon, Vertica can separate data storage from the compute nodes, allowing machines to quickly fill in for each other, to rebuild fault tolerance. But separating compute and storage is used for much, much more. We now offer powerful, flexible ways for Vertica to add servers and increase access to the data. Vertica nine, this feature is called sub-clusters. It allows computing capacity to be added quickly and incrementally, and isolates workloads from each other. If your exploratory analytics team needs direct access to the source data, they need a lot of machines and not the same number all the time, and you don't 100% trust the kind of queries and user defined functions, they might be using sub-clusters as the solution. While there's much more expensive information available in our other presentation. I'd like to point out the highlights of our latest sub-cluster best practices. We suggest having a primary sub-cluster, this is the one that runs all the time, if you're loading data around the clock. It should be sized for the ETL workloads and also determines the natural shard count. Additional read oriented secondary sub-clusters can be added for real time dashboards, reports and analytics. That way, subclusters can be added or deep provisioned, without disruption to other users. The sub-cluster features of Vertica 9.3 are working well for customers. Yesterday, the Trade Desk presented their use case for Vertica over 300,000 in 5 sub clusters running in the cloud. If you missed a presentation, check out the replay. But we have plans beyond sub-clusters, we're extending sub-clusters to real clusters. For the Vertica savvy, this means the clusters bump, share the same spread ring network. This will provide further isolation, allowing clusters to control their own independent data sets. While replicating all are part of the data from other clusters using a publish subscribe mechanism. Synchronizing data between clusters is a feature customers want to understand the real business for themselves. This vision effects are designed for ancillary aspects, how we should assign resource pools, security policies and balance client connection. We will be simplifying our data segmentation strategy, so that when data that originate in the different clusters meet, they'll still get fully optimized joins, even if those clusters weren't positioned with the same number of nodes per shard. Having a broad vision for data management is a key component to political success. But we also take pride in our execution strategy, when you start a new database from scratch as we did 15 years ago, you won't compete on features. Our key competitive points where speed and scale of analytics, we set a target of 100 x better query performance in traditional databases with path loads. Our storage architecture provides a solid foundation on which to build toward these goals. Every query starts with data retrieval, keeping data sorted, organized by column and compressed by using adaptive caching, to keep the data retrieval time in IO to the bare minimum theoretically required. We also keep the data close to where it will be processed, and you clusters the machines to increase throughput. We have partition pruning a robust optimizer evaluate active use segmentation as part of the physical database designed to keep records close to the other relevant records. So the solid foundation, but we also need optimal execution strategies and tactics. One execution strategy which we built for a long time, but it's still a source of pride, it's how we process expressions. Databases and other systems with general purpose expression evaluators, write a compound expression into a tree. Here I'm using A plus one times B as an example, during execution, if your CPU traverses the tree and compute sub-parts from the whole. Tree traversal often takes more compute cycles than the actual work to be done. Especially in evaluation is a very common operation, so something worth optimizing. One instinct that engineers have is to use what we call, just-in-time or JIT compilation, which means generating code form the CPU into the specific activity expression, and add them. This replaces the tree of boxes that are custom made box for the query. This approach has complexity bugs, but it can be made to work. It has other drawbacks though, it adds a lot to query setup time, especially for short queries. And it pretty much eliminate the ability of mere models, mere mortals to develop user defined functions. If you go back to the problem we're trying to solve, the source of the overhead is the tree traversal. If you increase the batch of records processed in each traversal step, this overhead is amortized until it becomes negligible. It's a perfect match for a columnar storage engine. This also sets the CPU up for efficiency. The CPUs look particularly good, at following the same small sequence of instructions in a tight loop. In some cases, the CPU may even be able to vectorize, and apply the same processing to multiple records to the same instruction. This approach is easy to implement and debug, user defined functions are possible, then generally aligned with the other complexities of implementing and improving a large system. More importantly, the performance, both in terms of query setup and record throughput is dramatically improved. You'll hear me say that we look at research and industry for inspiration. In this case, our findings in line with academic binding. If you'd like to read papers, I recommend everything you always wanted to know about compiled and vectorized queries, don't afraid to ask, so we did have this idea before we read that paper. However, not every decision we made in the Vertica executer that the test of time as well as the expression evaluator. For example, sorting and grouping aren't susceptible to vectorization because sort decisions interrupt the flow. We have used JIT compiling on that for years, and Vertica 401, and it provides modest setups, but we know we can do even better. But who we've embarked on a new design for execution engine, which I call EE five, because it's our best. It's really designed especially for the cloud, now I know what you're thinking, you're thinking, I just put up a slide with an old engine, a new engine, and a sleek play headed up into the clouds. But this isn't just marketing hype, here's what I mean, when I say we've learned lessons over the years, and then we're redesigning the executer for the cloud. And of course, you'll see that the new design works well on premises as well. These changes are just more important for the cloud. Starting with the network layer in the cloud, we can't count on all nodes being connected to the same switch. Multicast doesn't work like it does in a custom data center, so as I mentioned earlier, we're redesigning the network transfer layer for the cloud. Storage in the cloud is different, and I'm not referring here to the storage of persistent data, but to the storage of temporary data used only once during the course of query execution. Our new pattern is designed to take into account the strengths and weaknesses of cloud object storage, where we can't easily do a path. Moving on to memory, many of our access patterns are reasonably effective on bare metal machines, that aren't the best choice on cloud hyperbug that have overheads, page faults or big gap. Here again, we found we can improve performance, a bit on dedicated hardware, and even more in the cloud. Finally, and this is true in all environments, core counts have gone up. And not all of our algorithms take full advantage, there's a lot of ground to cover here. But I think sorting in the perfect example to illustrate these points, I mentioned that we use JIT in sorting. We're getting rid of JIT in favor of a data format that can be treated efficiently, independent of what the data types are. We've drawn on the best, most modern technology from academia and industry. We've got our own analysis and testing, you know what we chose, we chose parallel merge sort, anyone wants to take a guess when merge sort was invented. It was invented in 1948, or at least documented that way, like computing context. If you've heard me talk before, you know that I'm fascinated by how all the things I worked with as an engineer, were invented before I was born. And in Vertica , we don't use the newest technologies, we use the best ones. And what is noble about Vertica is the way we've combined the best ideas together into a cohesive package. So all kidding about the 1940s aside, or he redesigned is actually state of the art. How do we know the sort routine is state of the art? It turns out, there's a pretty credible benchmark or at the appropriately named historic sortbenchmark.org. Anyone with resources looking for fame for their product or academic paper can try to set the record. Record is last set in 2016 with Tencent Sort, 100 terabytes in 99 seconds. Setting the records it's hard, you have to come up with hundreds of machines on a dedicated high speed switching fabric. There's a lot to a distributed sort, there all have core sorting algorithms. The authors of the paper conveniently broke out of the time spent in their sort, 67 out of 99 seconds want to know local sorting. If we break this out, divided by two CPUs and each of 512 nodes, we find that each CPU so there's almost a gig and a half per second. This is for what's called an indy sort, like an Indy race car, is in general purpose. It only handles fixed hundred five records with 10 byte key. There is a record length can vary, then it's called daytona sort, a 10 set daytona sort, is a little slower. One point is 10 gigabytes per second per CPU, now for Verrtica, We have a wide variety ability in record sizes, and more interesting data types, but still no harm in setting us like phone numbers, comfortable to the world record. On my 2017 era AMD desktop CPU, the Vertica EE5 sort to store about two and a half gigabytes per second. Obviously, this test isn't apply to apples because they use their own open power chip. But the number of DRM channels is the same, so it's pretty close the number that says we've hit on the right approach. And it performs this way on premise, in the cloud, and we can adapt it to cloud temp space. So what's our roadmap for integrating EE5 into the product and compare replacing the query executed the database to replacing the crankshaft and other parts of the engine of a car while it's been driven. We've actually done it before, between Vertica three and a half and five, and then we never really stopped changing it, now we'll do it again. The first part in replacing with algorithm called storage merge, which combines sorted data from disk. The first time has was two that are in vertical in incoming 10.0 patch that will be EE5 or resegmented storage merge, and then convert sorting and grouping into do out. There the performance results so far, in cases where the Vertica execute is doing well today, simple environments with simple data patterns, such as this simple capitalistic query, there's a lot of speed up, when we ship the segmentation code, which didn't quite make the freeze as much like to bump longer term, what we do is grouping into the storage of large operations, we'll get to where we think we ought to be, given a theoretical minimum work the CPUs need to do. Now if we look at a case where the current execution isn't doing as well, we see there's a much stronger benefit to the code shipping in Vertica 10. In fact, it turns a chart bar sideways to try to help you see the difference better. This case also benefit from the improvements in 10 product point releases and beyond. They will not happening to the vertical query executer, That was just the taste. But now I'd like to switch to the roadmap first for our adapters layer. I'll start with a story about, how our storage access layer evolved. If you go back to the academic ideas, if you start paper that persuaded investors to fund Vertica, read optimized store was the part that had substantiation in the form of performance data. Much of the paper was speculative, but we tried to follow it anyway. That paper talked about the WS with RS, The rights are in the read store, and how they work together for transaction processing and how there was a supernova. In all honesty, Vertica engineers couldn't figure out from the paper what to do next, incase you want to try, and we asked them they would like, We never got enough clarification to build it that way. But here's what we built, instead. We built the ROS, read optimized store, introduction on steep major revision. It's sorted, ordered columnar and compressed that follows a table partitioning that worked even better than the we are as described in the paper. We also built the last byte optimized store, we built four versions of this over the years actually. But this was the best one, it's not a set of interrelated V tree. It's just an append only, insertion order remember your way here, am sorry, no compression, no base, no partitioning. There is, however, a tuple over which does what we call move out. Move the data from WOS to ROS, sorting and compressing. Let's take a moment to compare how they behave, when you load data directly to the ROS, there's a data parsing operation. Then we finished the sorting, and then compressing right out the columnar data files to stay storage. The next query through executes against the ROS and it runs as it should because the ROS is read optimized. Let's repeat the exercise for WOS, the load operation response before the sorting and compressing, and before the data is written to persistent storage. Now it's possible for a query to come along, and the query could be responsible for sorting the lost data in addition to its other processes. Effect on query isn't predictable until the TM comes along and writes the data to the ROS. Over the years, we've done a lot of comparisons between ROS and WOS. ROS has always been better for sustained load throughput, it achieves much higher records per second without pushing back against the client and hasn't Vertica for when we developed the first usable merge out algorithm. ROS has always been better for predictable query performance, the ROS has never had the same management complexity and limitations as WOS. You don't have to pick a memory size and figure out which transactions get to use the pool. A non persistent nature of ROS always cause headaches when there are unexpected cluster shutdowns. We also looked at field usage data, we found that few customers were using a lot, especially among those that studied the issue carefully. So how we set out on a mission to improve the ROS to the point where it was always better than both the WOS and the profit of the past. And now it's true, ROS is better than the WOS and the loss of a couple of years ago. We implemented storage bundling, better catalog object storage and better tuple mover merge outs. And now, after extensive Q&A and customer testing, we've now succeeded, and in Vertica 10, we've removed the whys. Let's talk for a moment about simplicity, one of the best things Mike Stonebreaker said is no knobs. Anyone want to guess how many knobs we got rid of, and we took the WOS out of the product. 22 were five knobs to control whether it didn't went to ROS as well. Six controlling the ROS itself, Six more to set policies for the typical remove out and so on. In my honest opinion is still wasn't enough control over to achieve excess in a multi tenant environment, the big reason to get rid of the WOS for simplicity. Make the lives of DBAs and users better, we have a long way to go, but we're doing it. On my desk, I keep a jar with the knob in it for each knob in Vertica. When developers add a knob to the product, they have to add a knob to the jar. When they remove a knob, they get to choose one to take out, We have a lot of work to do, but I'm thrilled to report that in 15 years 10 is the first release with a number of knobs ticked downward. Get back to the WOS, I've said the most important thing get rid of it for last. We're getting rid of it so we can deliver our vision of the future to our customer. Remember how he said an Eon and sub-clusters we got all these benefits from shared storage? Guess what can't live in shared storage, the WOS. Remember how it's been a big part of the future was keeping the copies that identical to the primary copy? Independent actions of the WOS took a little at the root of the divergence between copies of the data. You have to admit it when you're wrong. That was in the original design and held up to the a selling point of time, without onto the idea of a separate ROS and WOS for too long. In Vertica, 10, we can finally bid, good reagents. I've covered a lot of ground, so let's put all the pieces together. I've talked a lot about our vision and how we're achieving it. But we also still pay attention to tactical detail. We've been fine tuning our memory management model to enhance performance. That involves revisiting tens of thousands of satellite of code, much like painting the inside of a large building with small paintbrushes. We're getting results as shown in the chart in Vertica nine, concurrent monitoring queries use memory from the global catalog tool, and Vertica 10, they don't. This is only one example of an important detail we're improving. We've also reworked the monitoring tables without network messages into two parts. The increased data we're collecting and analyzing and our quality assurance processes, we're improving on everything. As the story goes, I still have my grandfather's axe, of course, my father had to replace the handle, and I had to replace the head. Along the same lines, we still have Mike Stonebreaker Vertica. We didn't replace the query optimizer twice the debate database designer and storage layer four times each. The query executed is and it's a free design, like charted out how our code has changed over the years. I found that we don't have much from a long time ago, I did some digging, and you know what we have left in 2007. We have the original curly braces, and a little bit of percent code for handling dates and times. To deliver on our mission to help customers get value from their structured data, with high performance of scale, and in diverse deployment environments. We have the sound architecture roadmap, reviews the best execution strategy and solid tactics. On the architectural front, we're converging in an enterprise, we're extending smart analytic clusters. In query processing, we're redesigning the execution engine for the cloud, as I've told you. There's a lot more than just the fast engine. that you want to learn about our new data support for complex data types, improvements to the query optimizer statistics, or extension to live aggregate projections and flatten tables. You should check out some of the other engineering talk that the big data conference. We continue to stay on top of the details from low level CPU and memory too, to the monitoring management, developing tighter feedback cycles between development, Q&A and customers. And don't forget to check out the rest of the pillars of our roadmap. We have new easier ways to get started with Vertica in the cloud. Engineers have been hard at work on machine learning and security. It's easier than ever to use Vertica with third Party product, as a variety of tools integrations continues to increase. Finally, the most important thing we can do, is to help people get value from structured data to help people learn more about Vertica. So hopefully I left plenty of time for Q&A at the end of this presentation. I hope to hear your questions soon.

(upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back. You're watching theCUBE, we go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise. This is a very special digital event and we're really covering the transformation not only the industry, but the transformation of Oracle Consulting and its rebirth. Mike Owens is here Group VP of Cloud Advisory and GM of Oracle Elevate, which is a partnership that Oracle announced last Open World with Deloitte, and Don Schmidt is here, who is a Managing Director at Deloitte. Gents, good to see you, welcome. >> Good to be here Dave. >> So, Don I want to start with you. Transformation, right? Everybody talks about that, there's a lot of trends going on in the industry. What do you guys see as the big gestalt transformation that's going on? >> Yeah I think there's an inflection point right now. Everybody have been saying they want to get out their data centers. The leaves haven't really been taking place, right? They've been kind of moving in small bits. We're now at the point where large transformation at scale, of getting out of your data centers, is now here. So, we are here to try to help our clients move faster. How can we do this more effectively, cost efficiently, and get them out of these data centers so they can move on with their day to day business? >> So data centers is just not an efficient use of capital for your customers. >> No, no there's lots of ways to do this a lot faster, cheaper, and get on to innovation. Spend your money there, not on hardware, floor space, power cooling, those fun things. >> Well you guys are spending money on data centers though right? So this is a good business for you all. >> Mike: We do it on behalf of other customers though. Right? >> Yeah and that's what's happening right? My customers, they essentially want to take all this IT labor cost and shift it into R&D get them on your backs and your backs right? Is this that what you see it? You know where are we in terms of that? I mean it started ten plus years ago but it really has started to uptake right? What's driving that? What's the catalyst there? >> You know so from my perspective, I've been doing this a while. A lot of it is either organizations are driving costs or what you're also seeing is IT organizations are no longer the utility in the organization and taking the orders, you're using them to try to top line value, but to do that, they actually have to take their business and change the model of it, so they can take that money and reinvest it in what Don had talked about, investment or continuous investment. So you're starting to hit those inflection points, you know years ago a CIO would be in his job for 15, 20 years, the average tenure for a CIO is you know three to five years on average, and it's because if they're not driving innovation or driving top line growth with an organization, organizations are now starting to flip that around so you're seeing a huge inflection point, with organizations really looking for IT not to be just a back office entity anymore, to truly drive them they have to transform that back to Don's point, because that inflection point, this large data center move over is a good sort of lever to kind of get them and really use it as opportunity to transform their organization. >> And the transformations are occurring, you know within industries, but at different pace. I mean some industries have transformed radically. You think about Ride shares, and digital music and the like others are taking more time, financial services, health care, they're riskier businesses, and you know there's more government in public policy so what do you see in terms of the catalyst for transformation and is there any kind of discernible, industry variance? >> Yeah there definitely is and he's mentioned some of the more start-up kind of organizations where Cloud was right for them at the early stages. These other organizations that have built these large application stacks and have been there for years, it's scary for them to say, "Let me take this big set of equipment and applications, and move it to the Cloud." It's a big effort. Starting from scratch with start-ups, that's a little different story right? So we are kind of at a different point, there are different stages within different industries, some are faster adopters than some of the others with government regulations and some of the technologies that have to kind of catch up to be able to provide those services. >> Do people generally want to take their sort of mission-critical apps which are largely running often on Oracle infrastructure database, they want to move that into the Cloud but do they want to bring that sort of Cloud-operating model to their on-prem and maybe reduce their overall data center footprint but preserve some of that? What are you guys seeing? >> So, two different probably viewpoints. So my viewpoint is, depends on the organization, depends on the regulatory they have, and there's a lot of factors in there. But I would say, as a standard organization would take their journey, mission-critical systems are historically not the first one in there. 'Cause back to the point of changing the operating model the way you want to do business and be effective, you don't go with the crown jewels first, historically, take some other work loads learn how to work in that operating model, how you're doing things change and then you evolve some of those pieces over time. There are organizations that basically, pull the band-aid off and just go right into it, right? But a lot of large enterprises sort of that's why we talk about Cloud as a journey, right? You take this journey you have to make the journey based on what's going on back what Don had talked about the regulatory requirements in history are the right controls in place for what they need at that point. If not, okay so what's an interim step to the journey? Could you bring Cloud in those capabilities on-prem and then have some of the other stuff off-prem? So it's really situational dependent, and we actually walk a customer through and now Don's organization does the same thing. You walk them through what makes best for their journey for where they're at in the industry and what they have today and what they're trying to achieve. >> So Don Deloitte doesn't just do IT it does business transformation, right? So it's like a chicken and egg, let's say that what comes first? The chicken or the egg? The IT transformation or the business transformation? >> I don't think it's an or it's an and. So have the total conversation of where's your Cloud journey for your entire enterprise, and then decide how that's going to be played out in both in IT and in the business. How the joint conversation from an enterprise perspective. >> So let's talk a little bit about the partnership, to your very well known brands, you guys get together, so what was the sort of impetus to get together? How's it going? Give us the update on that front. >> Yeah you know so from Oracle standpoint, Oracle has been really technology focused. It was really created by technologists, right? And back to the point of what we're trying to do with the Cloud and trying to do larger transformation, those aren't some of the skills that we have. We've been bringing in some of those skills in DNA, but if you look at it as why would you try to recreate this situation? Why would you not partner with an organization who does large business transformation like Deloitte? Right? And so the impetus of that is, how do we take the technology with the business transformation, pull that together and back of the one plus one equals three for my customer, right? That's what they really want, so how do we actually scale that into really big things and get big outcomes for our customers? Our partnership is not about trying to take a bunch of customers and move a couple application work loads. Our job, what we're really charted to do is make huge transformational leaps for our customers, using the combined capabilities of the two organizations. So this it's a hug paradigm for us to kind of do this. >> And in our collaboration with the two organizations just the opposite from what Mike just said right? So Deloitte wasn't really big in big IT, right? Business led transformations kind of what Deloitte's been known for, along with our cyber practice, and so we needed the deep skills of the technical experts. >> Right, so take me through what transformation engagement looks like. They don't call you up and say, "Hey want to buy me some transformation." Right? Where does it start? Who are the stake holders? How long does it take? I mean it could be multi year, I presume and never ends maybe but you want to get to business value first, so let's shorten up the time frame. Take me through typical engagement. Typical I know in quotes. And then, how long like take me through the point at which you start to get business value. What do I got to do to get there? >> Yeah so we see two different spectrums on a transformation. And it really aligns to what are your objectives. Do you just need to get out of the data center because you're on archaic dying hardware? Or do you want to take that, take your time and make a little bit more of a transformation journey? Or do you want to play somewhere in the middle of that spectrum? But on either one of those we'll come in and we'll do a discovery conversation. We'll understand what's in your data center, understand what the age or the health of your data center is, help the customers through, business case, TCO, how fast or how slow that journey needs to be for them, crave look our wave groups of how fast and we're going to sequence those over time to get out of their data center. In parallel we're going to be doing as Mike was saying running all the operational aspects. So while we're doing that discovery, we want to start standing up their Cloud center of excellence. Getting Cloud operations into the organization is a different skill set for IT to have, right? They're going to need to retrain themselves, retool themselves in the world of Cloud. So we kind of do that in parallel and then what we want to do is when we start a project, we want to start with a little POC or small little group of safe applications that we can prove how the model works. Move those into the Cloud, and then what we want to do is we want to scale at it, its large pace, right? Get the IT savings, get the cost cuts out of the organization. >> So I cleaned out my barn this weekend and the first thing I did is I got a dumpster. So I could throw some stuff out. So, is that part of the equation like getting rid of stuff? Is that part of the assessment? You know what's not delivering value that you can live without? >> Absolutely right, so there is kind of things that are just going to not go to Cloud, right? No longer need it, it's just laying around in the side, just get rid of that and move forward. >> And earlier one you'll see there's models depends you hear there's the 6 Rs, the 7 Rs and it's really the journey to Cloud it's almost you look at your status is it going to get re-platformed, is it going to get re-hosted, is it going to get retired back to your point. And if it's had something that's an appliance, right? That's something you're not going to put out to Cloud. Okay keep that in your data center. I have something that's so old, I hope it dies in the next two years. Don't spend the money move it to Cloud, let it die over the next two years. So back to the point, you kind of take this discovery and you go, where do things fall on the spectrum? And each one actually has a destination and a lever that you're going to pull, right? And if you're going to retire things okay so out of the business case, those are status quo for the next you're going to kill it over three years, right? Re-platform re-host means different things that they're going to take, right? Whether they do just to infrastructure or take advantage of PaaS or they'll go, "I'm going to blow up the entire application who directed to Cloud native services." Right? As you go through that journey you kind of map that out for them through the discovery process, and that tells you how much value you're going to get based on what you're going to do. >> But boy, this starts to get deep I mean as you used to peel the onions. So you just described what I would think of as wave 1. And then as you keep peeling you got the applications, you got the business process, you might have, reorganizations that's really where you guys have expertise, right? >> Well combined right? 'Cause yeah we're on the organizational side of things, but yeah there's a lot of things you have to sort through, right? And that's where the combined Elevate program really synergizes itself around the tools that we have. We both have tools that will help make sure we get this right, right? Deloitte has a product called Atadata, Oracle has a product called Soar, they married together properly into this transformational journey, to make sure we get the discovery done right and we get the migrations done right as well. >> Well you also have a lot of different stake holders, than you know, let's face it P&L Managers are going to try to hold on to their P&L. So you've got to bring in the senior executives. Clearly the CIOs involved is the CFO, CSWE. Who are the stake holders that you bring together in the room to kick this thing off? >> Depends on the message and depends on the outcome right? So if it's I need to get out of my data center, my data center strategy, historically the CIO. If it's there's an overall cost reduction and I want to re-implement my cost into innovating the business, sometimes that starts the CEO, CFO levels, right? >> Dave: Sure. >> So depends on that one but it is absolutely, back to your point of, the people want to hold their P&L huggers or kind of hold the cost or whatever. And one of the things, if you're not having the right conversations with people at the right level, the analogy that I've used for years is sometimes you're talking to a turkey about thanksgiving, right? So if you're trying to actually help transform and the entity is feeling that they're impacted by that negatively, even though there's a senior direction, so working through the right levels the organization to make sure you're showing how you're enabling them, it's key it's part of this journey. Helping them understand the future and how it's valuable, 'cause otherwise you'll get people that push back, even though it's the right thing for the company. We've seen that time and time again. >> Well it's potentially a huge engagement, so do you guys have specific plays or campaigns that you know I can do to get started maybe do a little test case, any particular offerings that-- >> Mike: I think-- >> Do you want to talk about the campaigns? >> So ]s under the program of Elevate, we've got a couple of campaigns. So the biggest one we've been talking about is around the data center transformation, so that's kind of the first campaign that we're working on together. The next one is around moving JD Edwards specific applications to Oracle's Cloud. And then the third one is around our analytics offering that Deloitte has and how we're going to market through to general put that in as well. Those are our three major campaigns. >> So data center transformation we hit it pretty hard. I'm sorry the third one was Cloud-- >> Analytics. >> Sorry analytics right okay which is kind of an instate that everybody wants to get to. The JDE migration, so you've got what, situations where people have just, the systems. >> And I would say it's actually more of a JDE modernization, alright? >> Okay. >> So you have an organization, right? They may have a JDE or JD Edwards instance that's really it's older, they're maybe on version nine or something like that, they don't want to go all the way to SaaS 'cause they can't simplify the business processes. They need to do that, but they also want to take advantage of the higher level capabilities of Cloud computing, right? IOT, Mobil, et cetera right? So as a modernization, one of the things we're doing is an approach together we work with customers depending where they're going and go hey great, you can actually modernize by taking up this version of JDE through an upgrade process, but that allows you then to move it over to Oracle Cloud infrastructure, which allows you to actually tap into all those platform services, the IOT and stuff like that to take to the next level. Then you can actually do the higher level analytics that sits on top of that. So it's really a journey where the customer wants to get. There's a various kind of four major phases that we can do or entry points with the customer on the JDE modernization, we kind of work them through. So that's a skill of some of the capabilities that Deloitte has as a deep JDE, and as well as Oracle Consulting, and we actually are going to market that together, matter of fact, we're even at conferences together, talking about our approaches here and our future. >> Okay. So that'll allow you to get to a Cloud PaaS layer that'll allow you to sort of modernize that and get out of the sort of technical debt that's built up. >> Where customers are not ready to maybe move their entire data center, right? This gets them on the journey, right? That's the important pieces. We want to get them on the Cloud journey. >> In the analytics campaign, so it seems to me that a lot of companies don't have their data driven, they want to be data driven, but they're not there yet. And so, their data's in silos and so I would imagine that that's all helping them understand where the data is, breaking down, busting down those silos and then actually putting in sort of an analytics approach that drives their, drives us from data to insights. Is that fair? >> Yeah fair. Yeah it's not just doing reporting and dashboards it's actually having KPI-driven insights into their information and their data within their organizations. And so Deloitte has some pre-configured applications for HR, finance, and supply chains. >> So the existing EDW for example would be fitter into that, but then you've got agile infrastructure and processes that you're putting in place, bringing in AI and machine intelligence. That's kind of the future state that you're in. >> And it also has, they look at the particular that's one of the things we like about the other stuff that Deloitte has done. They've actually done the investment of the processes back into those particular business units that they do and actually have KPI-driven ones it prebuilt configurations that actually adds value. These are the metrics that should be driving an HR organization. Here's the metrics that should be driving finance. So rather than doing better analytics, hey help me write my report better. No, we're going to help you transform the way you should be running your business from a business financial transformation, that's why the partnership with Deloitte. So it's really changing the game of true analytics, not better BI. >> Right okay, guys, two power houses. Thanks so much for explaining in The Cube and to our audience, appreciate it. (mumbling) >> Alright, thank you everybody for watching we'll be right back with our next guest you're watching The Cube, from Chicago. We'll be right back right after the short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Reporter: From Chicago, it's The Cube. Covering Oracle transformation date 2020. Brought to you by Oracle Consulting. >> Hi everybody, welcome back. You're watching theCUBE, we go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise. This is a very special digital event and we're really covering the transformation not only the industry, but the transformation of Oracle Consulting and its rebirth. Mike Owens is here Group VP of Cloud Advisory and GM of Oracle Elevate, which is a partnership that Oracle announced last Open World with Deloitte, and Don Schmidt is here, who is a Managing Director at Deloitte. Gents, good to see you, welcome. >> Good to be here Dave. >> So, Don I want to start with you. Transformation, right? Everybody talks about that, there's a lot of trends going on in the industry. What do you guys see as the big gestalt transformation that's going on? >> Yeah I think there's an inflection point right now. Everybody have been saying they want to get out their data centers. The leaves haven't really been taking place, right? They've been kind of moving in small bits. We're now at the point where large transformation at scale, of getting out of your data centers, is now here. So, we are here to try to help our clients move faster. How can we do this more effectively, cost efficiently, and get them out of these data centers so they can move on with their day to day business? >> So data centers is just not an efficient use of capital for your customers. >> No, no there's lots of ways to do this a lot faster, cheaper, and get on to innovation. Spend your money there, not on hardware, floor space, power cooling, those fun things. >> Well you guys are spending money on data centers though right? So this is a good business for you all. >> Mike: We do it on behalf of other customers though. Right? >> Yeah and that's what's happening right? My customers, they essentially want to take all this IT labor cost and shift it into R&D get them on your backs and your backs right? Is this that what you see it? You know where are we in terms of that? I mean it started ten plus years ago but it really has started to uptake right? What's driving that? What's the catalyst there? >> You know so from my perspective, I've been doing this a while. A lot of it is either organizations are driving costs or what you're also seeing is IT organizations are no longer the utility in the organization and taking the orders, you're using them to try to top line value, but to do that, they actually have to take their business and change the model of it, so they can take that money and reinvest it in what Don had talked about, investment or continuous investment. So you're starting to hit those inflection points, you know years ago a CIO would be in his job for 15, 20 years, the average tenure for a CIO is you know three to five years on average, and it's because if they're not driving innovation or driving top line growth with an organization, organizations are now starting to flip that around so you're seeing a huge inflection point, with organizations really looking for IT not to be just a back office entity anymore, to truly drive them they have to transform that back to Don's point, because that inflection point, this large data center move over is a good sort of lever to kind of get them and really use it as opportunity to transform their organization. >> And the transformations are occurring, you know within industries, but at different pace. I mean some industries have transformed radically. You think about Ride shares, and digital music and the like others are taking more time, financial services, health care, they're riskier businesses, and you know there's more government in public policy so what do you see in terms of the catalyst for transformation and is there any kind of discernible, industry variance? >> Yeah there definitely is and he's mentioned some of the more start-up kind of organizations where Cloud was right for them at the early stages. These other organizations that have built these large application stacks and have been there for years, it's scary for them to say, "Let me take this big set of equipment and applications, and move it to the Cloud." It's a big effort. Starting from scratch with start-ups, that's a little different story right? So we are kind of at a different point, there are different stages within different industries, some are faster adopters than some of the others with government regulations and some of the technologies that have to kind of catch up to be able to provide those services. >> Do people generally want to take their sort of mission-critical apps which are largely running often on Oracle infrastructure database, they want to move that into the Cloud but do they want to bring that sort of Cloud-operating model to their on-prem and maybe reduce their overall data center footprint but preserve some of that? What are you guys seeing? >> So, two different probably viewpoints. So my viewpoint is, depends on the organization, depends on the regulatory they have, and there's a lot of factors in there. But I would say, as a standard organization would take their journey, mission-critical systems are historically not the first one in there. 'Cause back to the point of changing the operating model the way you want to do business and be effective, you don't go with the crown jewels first, historically, take some other work loads learn how to work in that operating model, how you're doing things change and then you evolve some of those pieces over time. There are organizations that basically, pull the band-aid off and just go right into it, right? But a lot of large enterprises sort of that's why we talk about Cloud as a journey, right? You take this journey you have to make the journey based on what's going on back what Don had talked about the regulatory requirements in history are the right controls in place for what they need at that point. If not, okay so what's an interim step to the journey? Could you bring Cloud in those capabilities on-prem and then have some of the other stuff off-prem? So it's really situational dependent, and we actually walk a customer through and now Don's organization does the same thing. You walk them through what makes best for their journey for where they're at in the industry and what they have today and what they're trying to achieve. >> So Don Deloitte doesn't just do IT it does business transformation, right? So it's like a chicken and egg, let's say that what comes first? The chicken or the egg? The IT transformation or the business transformation? >> I don't think it's an or it's an and. So have the total conversation of where's your Cloud journey for your entire enterprise, and then decide how that's going to be played out in both in IT and in the business. How the joint conversation from an enterprise perspective. >> So let's talk a little bit about the partnership, to your very well known brands, you guys get together, so what was the sort of impetus to get together? How's it going? Give us the update on that front. >> Yeah you know so from Oracle standpoint, Oracle has been really technology focused. It was really created by technologists, right? And back to the point of what we're trying to do with the Cloud and trying to do larger transformation, those aren't some of the skills that we have. We've been bringing in some of those skills in DNA, but if you look at it as why would you try to recreate this situation? Why would you not partner with an organization who does large business transformation like Deloitte? Right? And so the impetus of that is, how do we take the technology with the business transformation, pull that together and back of the one plus one equals three for my customer, right? That's what they really want, so how do we actually scale that into really big things and get big outcomes for our customers? Our partnership is not about trying to take a bunch of customers and move a couple application work loads. Our job, what we're really charted to do is make huge transformational leaps for our customers, using the combined capabilities of the two organizations. So this it's a hug paradigm for us to kind of do this. >> And in our collaboration with the two organizations just the opposite from what Mike just said right? So Deloitte wasn't really big in big IT, right? Business led transformations kind of what Deloitte's been known for, along with our cyber practice, and so we needed the deep skills of the technical experts. >> Right, so take me through what transformation engagement looks like. They don't call you up and say, "Hey want to buy me some transformation." Right? Where does it start? Who are the stake holders? How long does it take? I mean it could be multi year, I presume and never ends maybe but you want to get to business value first, so let's shorten up the time frame. Take me through typical engagement. Typical I know in quotes. And then, how long like take me through the point at which you start to get business value. What do I got to do to get there? >> Yeah so we see two different spectrums on a transformation. And it really aligns to what are your objectives. Do you just need to get out of the data center because you're on archaic dying hardware? Or do you want to take that, take your time and make a little bit more of a transformation journey? Or do you want to play somewhere in the middle of that spectrum? But on either one of those we'll come in and we'll do a discovery conversation. We'll understand what's in your data center, understand what the age or the health of your data center is, help the customers through, business case, TCO, how fast or how slow that journey needs to be for them, crave look our wave groups of how fast and we're going to sequence those over time to get out of their data center. In parallel we're going to be doing as Mike was saying running all the operational aspects. So while we're doing that discovery, we want to start standing up their Cloud center of excellence. Getting Cloud operations into the organization is a different skill set for IT to have, right? They're going to need to retrain themselves, retool themselves in the world of Cloud. So we kind of do that in parallel and then what we want to do is when we start a project, we want to start with a little POC or small little group of safe applications that we can prove how the model works. Move those into the Cloud, and then what we want to do is we want to scale at it, its large pace, right? Get the IT savings, get the cost cuts out of the organization. >> So I cleaned out my barn this weekend and the first thing I did is I got a dumpster. So I could throw some stuff out. So, is that part of the equation like getting rid of stuff? Is that part of the assessment? You know what's not delivering value that you can live without? >> Absolutely right, so there is kind of things that are just going to not go to Cloud, right? No longer need it, it's just laying around in the side, just get rid of that and move forward. >> And earlier one you'll see there's models depends you hear there's the 6 Rs, the 7 Rs and it's really the journey to Cloud it's almost you look at your status is it going to get re-platformed, is it going to get re-hosted, is it going to get retired back to your point. And if it's had something that's an appliance, right? That's something you're not going to put out to Cloud. Okay keep that in your data center. I have something that's so old, I hope it dies in the next two years. Don't spend the money move it to Cloud, let it die over the next two years. So back to the point, you kind of take this discovery and you go, where do things fall on the spectrum? And each one actually has a destination and a lever that you're going to pull, right? And if you're going to retire things okay so out of the business case, those are status quo for the next you're going to kill it over three years, right? Re-platform re-host means different things that they're going to take, right? Whether they do just to infrastructure or take advantage of PaaS or they'll go, "I'm going to blow up the entire application who directed to Cloud native services." Right? As you go through that journey you kind of map that out for them through the discovery process, and that tells you how much value you're going to get based on what you're going to do. >> But boy, this starts to get deep I mean as you used to peel the onions. So you just described what I would think of as wave 1. And then as you keep peeling you got the applications, you got the business process, you might have, reorganizations that's really where you guys have expertise, right? >> Well combined right? 'Cause yeah we're on the organizational side of things, but yeah there's a lot of things you have to sort through, right? And that's where the combined Elevate program really synergizes itself around the tools that we have. We both have tools that will help make sure we get this right, right? Deloitte has a product called Atadata, Oracle has a product called Soar, they married together properly into this transformational journey, to make sure we get the discovery done right and we get the migrations done right as well. >> Well you also have a lot of different stake holders, than you know, let's face it P&L Managers are going to try to hold on to their P&L. So you've got to bring in the senior executives. Clearly the CIOs involved is the CFO, CSWE. Who are the stake holders that you bring together in the room to kick this thing off? >> Depends on the message and depends on the outcome right? So if it's I need to get out of my data center, my data center strategy, historically the CIO. If it's there's an overall cost reduction and I want to re-implement my cost into innovating the business, sometimes that starts the CEO, CFO levels, right? >> Dave: Sure. >> So depends on that one but it is absolutely, back to your point of, the people want to hold their P&L huggers or kind of hold the cost or whatever. And one of the things, if you're not having the right conversations with people at the right level, the analogy that I've used for years is sometimes you're talking to a turkey about thanksgiving, right? So if you're trying to actually help transform and the entity is feeling that they're impacted by that negatively, even though there's a senior direction, so working through the right levels the organization to make sure you're showing how you're enabling them, it's key it's part of this journey. Helping them understand the future and how it's valuable, 'cause otherwise you'll get people that push back, even though it's the right thing for the company. We've seen that time and time again. >> Well it's potentially a huge engagement, so do you guys have specific plays or campaigns that you know I can do to get started maybe do a little test case, any particular offerings that-- >> Mike: I think-- >> Do you want to talk about the campaigns? >> So ]s under the program of Elevate, we've got a couple of campaigns. So the biggest one we've been talking about is around the data center transformation, so that's kind of the first campaign that we're working on together. The next one is around moving JD Edwards specific applications to Oracle's Cloud. And then the third one is around our analytics offering that Deloitte has and how we're going to market through to general put that in as well. Those are our three major campaigns. >> So data center transformation we hit it pretty hard. I'm sorry the third one was Cloud-- >> Analytics. >> Sorry analytics right okay which is kind of an instate that everybody wants to get to. The JDE migration, so you've got what, situations where people have just, the systems. >> And I would say it's actually more of a JDE modernization, alright? >> Okay. >> So you have an organization, right? They may have a JDE or JD Edwards instance that's really it's older, they're maybe on version nine or something like that, they don't want to go all the way to SaaS 'cause they can't simplify the business processes. They need to do that, but they also want to take advantage of the higher level capabilities of Cloud computing, right? IOT, Mobil, et cetera right? So as a modernization, one of the things we're doing is an approach together we work with customers depending where they're going and go hey great, you can actually modernize by taking up this version of JDE through an upgrade process, but that allows you then to move it over to Oracle Cloud infrastructure, which allows you to actually tap into all those platform services, the IOT and stuff like that to take to the next level. Then you can actually do the higher level analytics that sits on top of that. So it's really a journey where the customer wants to get. There's a various kind of four major phases that we can do or entry points with the customer on the JDE modernization, we kind of work them through. So that's a skill of some of the capabilities that Deloitte has as a deep JDE, and as well as Oracle Consulting, and we actually are going to market that together, matter of fact, we're even at conferences together, talking about our approaches here and our future. >> Okay. So that'll allow you to get to a Cloud PaaS layer that'll allow you to sort of modernize that and get out of the sort of technical debt that's built up. >> Where customers are not ready to maybe move their entire data center, right? This gets them on the journey, right? That's the important pieces. We want to get them on the Cloud journey. >> In the analytics campaign, so it seems to me that a lot of companies don't have their data driven, they want to be data driven, but they're not there yet. And so, their data's in silos and so I would imagine that that's all helping them understand where the data is, breaking down, busting down those silos and then actually putting in sort of an analytics approach that drives their, drives us from data to insights. Is that fair? >> Yeah fair. Yeah it's not just doing reporting and dashboards it's actually having KPI-driven insights into their information and their data within their organizations. And so Deloitte has some pre-configured applications for HR, finance, and supply chains. >> So the existing EDW for example would be fitter into that, but then you've got agile infrastructure and processes that you're putting in place, bringing in AI and machine intelligence. That's kind of the future state that you're in. >> And it also has, they look at the particular that's one of the things we like about the other stuff that Deloitte has done. They've actually done the investment of the processes back into those particular business units that they do and actually have KPI-driven ones it prebuilt configurations that actually adds value. These are the metrics that should be driving an HR organization. Here's the metrics that should be driving finance. So rather than doing better analytics, hey help me write my report better. No, we're going to help you transform the way you should be running your business from a business financial transformation, that's why the partnership with Deloitte. So it's really changing the game of true analytics, not better BI. >> Right okay, guys, two power houses. Thanks so much for explaining in The Cube and to our audience, appreciate it. (mumbling) >> Alright, thank you everybody for watching we'll be right back with our next guest you're watching The Cube, from Chicago. We'll be right back right after the short break. (upbeat music)