(gentle music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of the AWS Startup Showcase. Season two, episode three. This is about MarTech, emerging cloud scale customer experience. This is our ongoing series that you know and love hopefully that feature a great number of AWS ecosystem partners. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Got a great guest here from Branch. Michelle Lerner joins me, the senior director of business development. She's going to be talking about Branch but also about one of your favorite brands, Peet's, yep, the coffee place, and how they supercharged loyalty and app adoption with Branch. Michelle, it's great to have you on the program. >> Yeah. Great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. >> Tell us a little bit about Branch, what you guys do for the modern mobile marketer. >> Yeah, absolutely. So you can think about Branch as a mobile linking platform. So what that means is we offer a seamless deep linking experience and insightful campaign measurement across every single marketing channel and platform on mobile. We exist so that we can break down walled gardens to help our customers engage with their customers in the most optimal way across any device and from every marketing channel. Our products are specifically designed to help create an amazing user experience, but also provide full picture holistic downstream measurement across any paid, owned, and earned channels so that brands can actually see what's working. So what that really means is that we make it really easy to scale our links across every single marketing channel, which then route the users to the right place at any device through even past install so that they can get to the context that they expect for a seamless experience. We then provide that cross channel analytics back to the brand so that they could see what's working and they can make better business decisions. So kind of summing it up, our industry leading mobile linking actually powers those deep links, also supports that measurement so that brands can build a sophisticated experience that actually delight their users but also improve their metrics and conversion rates. >> Those two things that you said are key. We expected to be delighted with whatever experience we're having and we also want to make sure, and obviously, the brands want to make sure that they're doing that but also that from an attribution perspective, from a campaign conversion perspective, that they can really understand the right tactics and the right strategic elements that are driving those conversions. That's been a challenge for marketers for a long time. Speaking of challenges, we've all been living through significant challenges. There's no way to say it nicely. The last two years, every industry completely affected by the pandemic talk. We're going to talk about Peet's Coffee. And I want to understand some of the challenges that you saw in the quick service restaurant or QSR industry at large. Talk to me about those industry challenges and then we'll dig into the Peet's story. >> Yeah, absolutely. So obviously the pandemic changed so much in our lives whether it's going to work or commuting or taking our kids to school or even getting our morning coffee. So when you think about Peet's, specifically within the QSR industry, they knew that they needed to innovate in order to make sure that they could provide their customers with their daily cups of coffee in a really safe and effective way. So they thought really quickly on their feet, they engaged us at Branch to help launch their order ahead messaging across their online and offline channels. They really wanted to maintain their commitment to an excellent customer experience but in a way that obviously would be safe and effective. >> That was one of the things that I missed the very most in the very beginning of the pandemic was going to my local Peet's. I missed that experience. Talk me about, you mentioned the online and offline, I'm very familiar with the online as an app user, mobile app user, but what were some of the challenges that they were looking to Branch to resolve on the offline experiences? People were queuing outside or for those folks that were they trying to get folks to convert to using the mobile app that maybe weren't users already? What was that online and offline experience? What were some of the challenges they were looking to resolve? >> Yeah, absolutely. The modern marketer is really both, like you said, online and offline, there is a heavy focus within the app and Peet's kind of wanted to bridge those two by pushing users into the app to provide a better experience there. So what they ended up doing was they used our deep linking capabilities to seamlessly route their customers to their loyalty program and their rewards catalog and other menu offerings within the app so that they could actually get things done in real time, but also in real time was the ability to then measure across those different campaigns so that they had visibility, Peet's, into kind of the way that they could optimize that campaign performance but also still give that great experience to their users. And they actually saw higher loyalty adoption, order values, and attributed purchases when they were able to kind of see in real time where these users were converting. But another thing that we're actually seeing across the board and Peet's did a great job of this was leveraging Branch power QR codes where we are seeing like the rebirth of the QR code. They're back, they're here to stay. They actually used that across multiple channels. So they used it with their in-store signage. You might have even seen it on their to go cups, coffee cards that were handed out by baristas. They were all encouraging customers to go order ahead using the Peet's coffee app. But that was kind of just the beginning for them. The creation of unique links for those QR codes actually spread for them to create Branch links across everything from emails to ads on Instagram. So before long, most of Peet's retail marketing were actually Branch links just because of the ease of creation and reliability, but more so again, going back to that customer experience, it really provided that good experience for the customers to make sure that they were getting within the mobile app so that they can take action and order their coffee. Another way that Branch kind of bridges the different platforms is actually between mobile web and app. Peet used Branch Journeys and that's a product of ours. It's a way that they can convert their mobile web users into app users. So they used deferred deep links with the ultimate goal of then converting those users into high value app users. So the Peet's team actually tested different creative and interstitials across the mobile site which would then place those users into the key pages, like either the homepage or the store locator, or the menu pages within the app. So that also helped them kind of build up not just their mobile app order online but also their delivery business so they could hire new trials of seasonal beverages. They could pair them with a free delivery offering. So they knew that they were able to leverage that at scale across multiple initiatives. >> I love those kinds of stories where it's kind of like a land and expand where there was obviously a global massive problem. They saw that recognized our customers are still going to be is demanding. Maybe if not more than they were before with I want my coffee, I want it now, you mentioned real time. I think one of the things we learned during the pandemic is access to realtime data isn't a nice to have anymore. We expect it as consumers even in our business lives, but the ability to be able to measure, course correct, but then see, wow, this is driving average order value up, we're getting more folks using our mobile app, maybe using delivery. Let's expand the usage of Branch across what we're doing in marketing can really help transform our marketing organization and a business at the brand level. >> Absolutely. And it also helps predict that brand loyalty. Because like you said, we, as consumers expect that that brands are going to kind of follow us where we are in our life cycle as consumers and if you don't do that, then you're going to be left in the dust unfortunately. >> I think one of the memories that will always stick with me, Michelle, during the last couple years is that first cup of Peet's that I didn't have to make at home myself. Just finally getting the courage to go back in, use the app, go in there, but oh man, that was probably the best taste of coffee I probably will ever have. You mentioned some of the products, you mentioned Journeys, and that allows them to do AB testing, looking at different CTAs, being able to kind of course correct and adjust campaigns in real time. >> Yeah, absolutely. So Journeys, what it does is it's basically a banner or a full page interstitial that is populated on the mobile web. So if you go to let's say Peets.com, you could get served as a user, either different creative or depending on where you are, location wise, you could be in the store, maybe there's a promotion. So it's triggered by all these different targeting capabilities. And so what that does is it takes me as a user. I can click that and go into the app where, like we said before, we have higher order value, higher lifetime value of a customer. And all my credit card information is saved. It just makes it so much more seamless for me to convert as a user within the app. And obviously Peet's likes that as well because then their conversion rates are actually higher. There's also kind of fun ways to play around with it. So if I am already a loyal customer and I have the app, you probably would target different creative for me than you would for someone who doesn't have the app. So you could say, hey, download our app, get $5 off of your next mobile order. Things like that you could play around with and you can see really does help increase that loyalty. But actually they were able to take, they kind of are experimenting with the geotargeted journeys in different key markets with different Peet's. And actually it was helping ultimately get their reinstalls growing. So for customers who maybe had the app before but needed to reinstall it because now there's such a bigger focus, they saw it both on the acquisition and the re-engagement side as well. >> So Branch has been pretty transformative, not in my estimation to Peet's marketing, but to Peet's as a business I'm hearing absolutely customer loyalty, revenue obviously impacted, brand loyalty, brand reputation. These are things that really kind of boil up to the top of the organization. So we're not just talking about benefits to the marketing and the sales folks. This is the overall massive business outcomes that you guys are enabling organizations like Peet's to generate. >> Yeah, definitely. And that's kind of what we tell our customers when they come to Branch. We want them to think about what their overall business objectives are versus if you think just campaign by campaign, okay, that's fine. But ultimately what are we trying to achieve? How could we help the bottom line? And then how can we also kind of help integrate with other mobile marketing technology or the modern tech stack that they're using? How do we integrate into that and actually provide not just a seamless experience for their end user, but with their marketing orgs, their product orgs, whoever's kind of touching the business as well? >> Have you noticed along those lines in the last couple of years as things like customer delight, seamless experience, the ability to translate, if I start on my iPad and I go to my laptop and then I finish a transaction on my phone, have you noticed your customer conversations increasing up to the C-suite level? Is this much more of a broad organizational objective around we've got to make sure that we have a really strong digital user experience? >> Yeah, absolutely. Like we were talking about before, it really does help affect the bottom line when you're providing a great experience with Branch being a mobile linking platform, our links just work. We outperform everybody else in the space and it might sound like really simple, okay, a link is working getting me from point A to point B, but doing it the right way and being consistent actually will increase performance over time of all these campaigns. So it's just an addition to providing that experience, you're seeing those key business results every single time. >> Talk about attribution for a minute because I've been in marketing for a long time in the tech industry. And that's always one of the challenges is we want to know what lever did the customer pull that converted them from opportunity to a lead to whatnot? Talk about the ability for Branch from an attribution perspective to really tell those marketers and the organization exactly, tactically, down to the tactical level, this is what's working. This is what's not working. Even if it's a color combination for example. That science is critical. >> Yeah, absolutely. Because we are able to cover the entire marketing life cycle of that they're trying to reach their customers. We cover off on email. We have mobile web to app. We have organic, we have search. No matter what you can look at that purview under a Branch lens. So we are just providing not just the accurate attribution down to the post-install, what happens after that, but also a more holistic view of everything that's happening on mobile. So then you can stitch all that together and really look at which ones are actually performing so you could see exactly which campaigns attributed directly to what amount of spend or which campaigns helped us understand the true lifetime long term value of customers, let's say in this case who ordered delivery or pickup. So to the kind of customer persona, it really helped. And also they actually were able to see Peet's because of our attribution, they saw actually a four and a half time increase in attributed purchases at the peak of the pandemic. And even since then, they're still seeing a three times increase in monthly attributed purchases. So because they actually have the view across everything that they're doing, we're able to provide that insight. >> That insight is so critical these days, like we mentioned earlier talking about real time data. Well we expect the experiences to be real time. And I expect that when I go back on the app they're going to know what I ordered last time. Maybe I want that again. Maybe I want to be able to change that, but I want them to know enough about me in a non creepy way. Give me that seamless experience that I'm expecting because of course that drives me to come back over and over again and spend way too much money there which I'm guilty of, guilty as charged. >> Coffee is totally fine. >> Right? Thank you. Thank you so much for validating that. I appreciate that. But talk to me about, as we are kind of wrapping things up here, the brick and mortars, it was such a challenge globally, especially the mom and pops to be able to convert quickly and figure out how do we reach a digital audience? How do we get our customers to be loyal? What's some of the advice that you have for the brick and mortars or those quick service restaurants like Peet's who've been navigating this the last couple years now here we are in this interesting semi post pandemic I would like to believe world? >> Yeah, we're getting there slowly but surely, but yeah, it's really important for them to adapt as we kind of move into this semi post pandemic world, we're kind of in the middle of like a hybrid online, offline, are we in stores, are we ordering online? These brand and customer relationships are super complex. I think the mobile app is just one part of that. Customers really shouldn't have any problems getting from the content or item they're looking for, no matter if they're in the store, if they're in the app, if they're on the desktop, if they're checking their email, if they're perusing TikTok, the best customer relationships really are omnichannel in nature. So what I would say, the need for providing the stellar customer experience isn't going to go away. It's actually really key. Whether it's driving users from their mobile properties to the app, providing a great in-store experience, like the QR codes, customers are expecting a lot more than they did before the pandemic. So they're not really seeing these brand touch points as little silos. They're seeing one brand. So it really should feel like one brand you should speak to the customers as if it's one brand across every single device, channel, and platform, and really unify that experience for them. >> Absolutely. That's going to be I think for so many different brands, whether it's a brick and mortar QSR, that's going to be one of the defining competitive advantages. If they can give their end users a single brand experience across channels, and you mentioned TikTok, those channels are only going to grow. As are I think or expectations. I don't think anybody's going to go back to wanting less than they did two years ago, right? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Well this has been great, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me, talking about Branch, what you guys are doing, mobile linking platform, mobile measurement platform, the deep links, what you were able to do with Peet's Coffee, a beloved brand since the 60s and so many others. We appreciate your insights, your time and the story that you shared. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. I hope you have a great rest of your day. >> You as well. For Michelle Lerner, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of the AWS Showcase. Keep it right here. More great content coming up from theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. (gentle music)

>>Welcome to the cubes coverage of Dell tech world 2022. My name is Dave Volante and I'm currently in our studios outside of Boston. As we prepare to gather for the first in person Dell technologies world since 20 19, 1 of the major structural change and the technology business during the pandemic was IBM's spin out of Kendra. A world class technology services provider that lived inside of IBM. Kendra is a large business with trailing 12 month revenues north of 18 billion. It's got 90,000 employees worldwide. Kendra has long term predictable cash flows. And in my view is one of the most undervalued companies in the technology sector. As a separate company, Kendra is able to turn many of its former internal IBM roadblocks into tailwinds and ecosystem. Partnerships are one of the best examples of new opportunities that are opening up for the newly separate at company. In this next segment, we're gonna dig into a new partnership between Kendra and Dell technologies and what is the most critical priority for organizations today? Cyber resiliency and with me are two really impressive and talented guests. Chris Lovejoy is global security and resiliency practice leader at Kendra. Michelle Weston is vice president of, of global offerings for security and resiliency also at kindred ladies. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on and spending some time with us. >>Thank thank you. >>Okay. Let's zoom out a little bit and start with a big picture. What would you say are, are the one or two major trends or changes even in cyber that you've seen since the pandemic, maybe Chris, you could start us off and Michelle, you can chime in. >>Sure. Happy to. And, um, you know, I think part of this actually preceded the pandemic and, um, you know, the fact is, you know, a lot of organizations have been engaging in the adoption of new technologies, you know, be it cloud AI IOT, what, what, whatever that may be. Um, and they've been introducing that technology without, um, adequate security control and during the COVID pandemic, um, when, you know, technology transformation happened for existential reasons, what we were seeing is organizations throwing at even more technology at cyclic, right, with absolutely no security control whatsoever. And in the meantime, the regulators who are, you know, watching this in, you know, horror are introducing new requirements in and around, um, what we're calling cyber resilience today. And it's all based on this concept that, you know, conventional cybersecurity assume that the adversaries could be kept out of organizations. >>Um, you could protect the organization and sort of block it, um, as rising numbers of disruptive attacks, like, you know, ransomware attacks have shown those approaches don't work. And so, um, what we're seeing is that the market is really moving toward this concept of cyber resiliency, which goes beyond cybersecurity. It assumes that the advanced a adversaries are frankly, many adversaries can overcome, um, conventional protections and that, um, they, that organization need to prepare to recover. Um, so our approach, the approach that we're taking to the market is really to help organizations in binding security plus continuity plus disaster recovery, then giving them the ability to anticipate, protect, um, with stand and recovery from any adverse condition associated with their cyber real estate. Um, and this is why we're so excited to work with Dell, uh, because they're really, uh, paving the roads for us to actually, you know, work together in solving these needs for our clients. >>Got it. That makes sense. And now Michelle, as Chris was saying, these worlds are coming together. What used to be adjacencies, oftentimes they, after thoughts, bolted on, and now you've got the work from home and, and hybrid work, not to mention, as Chris was saying, you're injecting AI and all this data, you know, this is a complicated situation for a lot of people, isn't it? >>Yeah. And it was only even more complicated during, during the pandemic as well. I think, uh, another trend that we saw was the end enterprise was outside the enterprise, right? Uh, everyone was working from home. They weren't in the data centers, their own resiliency and security protocols were already at risk because they were so manual and people intensive. And yet we know, you know, the bad actors actually took advantage of, of that right. Uh, data centers were, uh, less monitored. Um, we had all of the employees working from home. Now, the enterprise is outside of the enterprise, but you still need security and resiliency for all of those endpoints. Right. And I think that's driving a higher need, um, coming out of the PA the pandemic and even with this hybrid model, okay. We'll return to work, but not, not in the same fashion that we did prior to the pandemic. >>That's the new reality. The other thing that I would say is that those customers that had adopted cloud already and cloud enabled their business, they were able to fare, um, the best during the pandemic. They were able to sustain their businesses. Um, alternatively, and it's kind of a different lens to it. I think the pandemic actually drove new ways of working and some really creative solutions. I mean, if you look at, um, you know, food delivery services that, uh, proliferated during the pandemic, or, uh, that are now offering fitness online, um, fitness classes online, people had to think, um, intelligently and, and creatively on how they sustain their businesses. So I think all of that's coming together, but certainly this need of, as you said, not thinking of security and resiliency as an afterthought, but as a forethought planning for those things efficiently and effectively, that we find customers that do that, uh, do it the best. And, uh, I think that Kendra offers a unique value pro in here because bringing both together is a journey that we started a couple of years ago that we've only accelerated with the, uh, spin of the Kendra company. >>Yeah. Interesting. So I wanted to talk about that partnership because mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, Dell's got this massive channel, it's got infrastructure technology expertise, uh, but Dell, you know, Dell's a product company, Kendra is a services company, so it's a really good match in that sense. Right. Uh, maybe you could talk about how the partnership came together and, you know, what are the critical aspects that folks need to be aware of? >>Yeah. I would say Dell's an excellent partner for us and they have been for a number of years. So in a lot of ways that's not new. Okay. Uh, we've been partnering in market together for quite quite some time. In fact, the solution that we'll talk about today was first put into market in 2018. And you're absolutely right. We, we come together in the best ways. They're leveraging our strengths with regard to manage services, professional services. And we are certainly looking at them as a key technology provider, um, for our portfolio, we've worked together for years. Uh, we manage backup environments based on their data protection solutions, including data domain, but what was unique. And I think we were both ahead of the market at the time, um, was the 2018 solution that we put in to market and have only enhanced and augmented it ever since it's, it's called, um, cyber volt is, is the solution from Dell technologies. >>We certainly manage that solution in market for them today. And then we have unique differentiation in our Kindra portfolio that we've integrated with that and add to, um, their cyber incident recovery features, um, Dell initially put the solution in market coming out of, um, some of the ransomware attacks that they had cyber attacks that they had. They realized there was a need to protect the large data domain install base around the world. Um, they developed some proprietary solar solution, uh, software on top of their large data domain boxes and, and any cyber incident recovery solution. You need a, a few things you need the ability to assure imutable storage, a, a copy that you can assure has not been altered so that when you initiate the recovery, you know that you've got a clean copy and you're not propagating whatever is there. Um, so the solution has that, um, it has the other component that you need, which is the ability to scan the data for anomalies, right? >>So they're scanning the backup files continuously to look for anomalies. And then lastly, you need some form of data mover, which the data domain, um, solution offers. So they came to us in 2018 and said, look, we've got this solution. We think we're ahead of the market. Uh, we were also investing in cyber incident recovery with a key asset that we acquired in market in 2015, um, that we've continued to bake cyber incident recovery features and functions into, and they said, let's marry the two. And let's have you provide all of the managed services capabilities around this for clients. Um, that is a key piece because when it comes to cyber, uh, there's always a level of confidence that customers have, right? Yes. I can recover from any adverse condition. If you ask them, can you recover from a cyber attack with a hundred percent assurance? I don't think there's a customer today that could say given how sophisticated and how much these, these attack vectors are changing, that, that they, they have that a hundred percent confidence level. So a managed service provider, a phone, a friend in the event of is a, is a unique value proposition. Um, and that's what the two companies are bringing together, uh, for customers today. >>Got it. Thank you. So, so Chris, maybe as a services company, you, you, you have to be ignite, you know, to technology, you know, the best fit, et cetera. But, but prior to the spin, we never would've heard it, something like this. And so what, maybe you could talk about the partnership from your perspective. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. And I, I do wanna, um, you know, sort of double click on this a little bit, you, and you mentioned it in your opening, you know, headwinds being wins now. And I think this is important, incredibly important. You know, what people don't realize about Kendra is that, you know, we were never able to, as the services organization, um, that was really focused on strategic outsourcing and providing other kinds of services to, uh, clients while under the IBM banner are really never able to talk about the technical depth that we had across any number of platforms, including, um, the hyperscalers. And we have thousands upon thousands of people with hyperscaler certifications. Um, we have experience with pretty much every security and resilience technology out there. Um, we have broad and early with organizations like yours, that we were never able to speak about now, you know, when it comes to a client, you know, let's be realistic. >>Everybody is engaged in some sort of it modernization program. And while, and we have to realize also that those it modernization programs, you know, oftentimes they have no destination per se. You know, we talk about them as a journey, but we, if no destination, they just keep going and going and going. And the directions change every day, depending on, you know, what the strategic, uh, requirements are from whatever C-suite, you have, you know, sitting at the table, uh, what the competitive trends are, what the market is telling you, et cetera. And so what clients are saying to us is that the value we offer is that we can untangle the mess. That is their environment. We can meet them where they are, we can get them where they wanna go. And so, you know, when it comes to a relationship with Dell, you know, we believe that, you know, particularly in the area of security, in resilience, that there is a unique proposition to be had around the services and the cross platform experience and certifications and skills that our, um, our teams have married with the technology advances that Dell has made in the, in, in the world, as well as our experience in, you know, sort of the two that has have been frankly, hidden over the past few years. >>I think we have some, uh, something unique that we can offer to the market. Particularly, as I said, in this space of security and resilience, where all of our clients are, you know, looking for some sort of solution to this, you know, gee, I can't spend enough money to protect myself. I need to make sure that if the worst happens that I can bring myself back again, that's what we can do for our clients. >>Great. Thank you, Michelle. I wanna go back to the solution for a moment. You mentioned a number of things, integrations. I got like a zillion questions here. I'm interested in what kind of integrations you talked about imutability where does, where does that occur? Is that in the cloud? Is that the, you know, Dell technology is scan for anomalies again, what is that? Is that some kind of, you know, AI magic, you got a high speed data mover. Is there an air gap involved, maybe help me fill in some of those gaps. >>Yeah. And I think you, I think you've netted out the solution. Any cyber incident recovery solution in my mind would have those three things. They have some form of imutable storage. Uh, this could be cloud object storage in the case of the Dell solution, they're actually using their retention lock feature on the large data domain devices. Right? So think of this solution as having two data domains, they both have this retention lock feature. That's the imutable storage. They're able to move data and forth between the two, uh, that's another key piece. And then finally, for any incident recovery solution, you need the ability to scan and make sure that there aren't anomalies, um, in this case, in the backup files. So they're using a, a third party to scan thatno scan those files for anomalies. And when when's detected, that kind of gives the indication that something may be there and then they can go in and triage it and, and, and clean the environment if needed. >>Um, so we certainly manage that end to end, and that is one approach. It is an on-premise approach. It uses the data domain, uh, technologies. We know that clients have a lot more than that, right? So where Kendra comes in with its cyber incident recovery solution that also integrates with Dell's cyber incident recovery solution is we support cloud, um, multiple infrastructure. We have also imutable storage that we leverage. Um, and then in terms of our anomaly scanning capabilities, in this case, we're using technology that we had originally developed in IBM research that we integrated into the software product. Um, again, this is on an acquisition we did in market five years ago, called son Nobi. It's a software product. Um, it ingests and automates all of your workflows in the, in, in the event of any failover failback, any, uh, outage, including cyber and that technology underpin a lot of what we do on the incident recovery perspective, Dells use data domain. >>We've used the software, all both solutions have all three components of the cyber incident recovery, uh, solution when they're integrated, there's real power there, right? Because now you're looking at protection, not just of the backup environ, um, but all environments, including production, you're looking at being able to scale beyond OnPrem. Um, and more importantly, you're looking at the speed to recover, right? The not needing to rehydrate the data, but to be able to recover with the RTOs and RPOs that are expected, um, of our customers on the resiliency orchestration side, the Kendra solution. Um, this is, this is push of a button fail over, fail back in the event of an outage. Um, you can recover the entire hybrid estate in the matter of minutes and what we know with respect to any outage it's costly. We know know that downtime is costly, but with respect to cyber, we know that that's more costly than a typical outage, sometimes four X, um, you don't always recover from the brand damage from the loss of customers. So being down and, and coming up as quickly as you can, with the additional data verification, data validation and assurance that you're not propagating, whatever is there is the value prop, um, that both CU, both companies are really serving. >>And where does an air gap fit in into this equation? Is that yet another layer of protection what's best practice there? >>Um, so think of the air gap is just between the data movement and the immune storage, right? You need to be able to cut connection in a way, right. That is an air gap solution. And it's based on the imutable storage that both have. >>Okay. And that would be, it could be local, I guess, but it also could be, it should be maybe remote. Yes. Mm-hmm >><affirmative> okay. Exactly. And, and the ability to manage and orchestrate that air gap is a key value prop again, of the Kendra solution. >>Okay. And so I've mentioned local or remote. I mean, obviously the trade off is recovery time, you know, uh, I guess RTO, um, but, but <laugh> and RPO. So a lot of layers is, is what I'm hearing is that's always security pros in this framework. >>Let me give you another example, the reason why this is so important. Um, most of our Dr. Processes today, they all rely on people, right? We had a large client that was impacted when we were IBM. They were impacted with pet. They had a great Dr plan. They were a customer of ours. Um, we managed that service for them. Their Dr. Plan was still people intensive. And when that attack happened, it took out the badge readers to the people that you've invested in. Can't get on site to manage the incident, can't bring up the environment. And then if you look at going back to the very beginning of our conversation, COVID being sort of, uh, another way that that happened with access and the ability to continuously monitor and have the people on site that ability was impacted. So this is where you need to invest in technology, uh, P and processes to make sure that you are as robust as you can be. And as Chris said, your ability to anticipate with stand and recover from any adverse condition, that's, that's the value prop that our global practice brings. Yeah. >>To your, to your point, the adversary is well funded and motivated. Chris, we'll give you the last word, where do, where do you wanna see this partnership go? You know, kinda what what's next? What should we look for in the coming months and in, in years? >>Yeah. I'm, you know, I think, you know, very simply, and I'm going put my CISO hat on right. For a minute, because I think it's important to speak, you know, for the customer as a customer, you know, at the end of the day, I, I think most C-suite executives do don't realize the extent to which security, continuity and disaster recovery have been separate silos. And what is shocking to our clients when they get into a ransomware event in particular is the fact that they have their, um, systems, their services, their data is locked up, their backups have been sort of implemented or have, have been, you know, sort of subverted. They call in the pros, they call in the folks that help them with the incident response. The incident responders are able to identify the ransomware strain. They're able to contain the ransomware strain, but the damage is done. >>Now, what, how do you bring the environment back? How do you that the data is good? How do you, how do you find the system configurations and load them again? In what order do you load them? What they don't realize is that security and recovery, they have to be merged together. And so what I think that we can do it, it's not just, you know, build customer demand is not just sell a solution. We can really help clients. And so my hope is that we are able to bring cyber resilience into every organization, every large enterprise out there that needs to, you know, continually service their clients and their employees. They need to stay in business that we're able to bring the solution to them in such a way that they're able to, you know, bring back their environments to serve their clients when the worst does happen. >>Great. Yes. Thank you. We're definitely seeing that data protection world and the cybersecurity world. They, they adjacencies, but they really are coming together and part of a comprehensive plan. Okay. We have to leave it there. Thanks so much folks for coming on the cube really appreciate your time and your insights. >>Thanks for having us. And >>Thank you. Thank you for watching the Cube's coverage of Dell technologies world 2022. Keep it right there. We're running all week with live coverage from the show floor. We're pumping in deep dives like this one throughout the week. So don't go away.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello. Welcome to today's session of the AWS Startup Showcase, The Next Big Thing in AI, Security & Life Sciences. Today featuring TetraScience for the life sciences track. I'm your host Natalie Erlich, and now we are joined by our special guests, Michelle Bradbury, VP of Product at TetraScience, as well as Mike Tarselli, the Chief Scientific Officer at TetraScience. We're going to talk about the R&D Data Cloud movement in life sciences, unlocking experimental data to accelerate discovery. Thank you both very much for joining us today. >> Thank you for having us. >> Yeah, thank you. Great to be here. >> Well, while traditionally slower to adopt cloud technology in R&D, global pharmas are now launching digital lab initiatives to improve time to market for therapeutics. Now, can you discuss some of the key challenges still facing big pharma in terms of digital transformation? >> Sure. I guess I'll start in. The big pharma sort of organization that we have today happens to work very well in its particular way, i.e., they have some architecture they've installed, usually on-premises. They are sort of tentatively sticking their foot into the cloud. They're learning how to move forward into that, and in order to process and automate their data streams. However, we would argue they haven't done enough fast enough and that they need to get there faster in order to deliver patient value and efficiencies to their businesses. >> Well, how specifically, now for Michelle, can R&D Data Cloud help big pharma in this digital transformation? >> So the big thing that large pharmas face is a couple different things. So the ecosystem within large pharma is a lot of diverse data types, a lot of diverse file types. So that's one thing that the data cloud handles very well to be able to parse through, harmonize, and bring together your data so that it can be leveraged for things like AI and machine learning at large-scale, which is sort of the other part where I think one of the large sort of challenges that pharma faces is sort of a proliferation of data. And what cloud offers, specifically, is a better way to store, more scalable storage, better ability to even tier your storage while still making it searchable, maintainable, and offer a lot of flexibility to the actual pharma companies. >> And what about security and compliance, or even governance? What are those implications? >> Sure. I'll jump into that one. So security and compliance, every large pharma is a regulated industry. Everyone watching this probably is aware of that. And so we therefore have to abide by the same tenets that they would. So 21 CFR Part 11 compliance, getting ready for GXP ready systems, And in fact, doing extra certifications around a SOC 2 Type 2, ISO 9001, really every single regulation that would allow our cloud solution to be quality, ready, inspectable, and really performant for what needs to be done for an eventual FDA submission. >> And can you also speak about some of the advances that we're seeing in machine learning and artificial intelligence, and how that will impact pharma, and what your role is in that at TetraScience? >> Sure. I'll pass this one to Michelle first. >> I was going to say I can take that one. So one of the things that we're seeing in terms of where AI and ML will go with large pharma is their ability to not only search and build models against the data that they have access to right now, which is very limited in the way they search, but the ability to go through the historical amount of data, the ability to leverage mass parallel compute on top of these giant data clusters, and what that means in terms of not only faster time to market for drugs, but also, I think, more accurate and precise testing coming in the future. So I think there's so much opportunity for this really data-rich vertical and industry to leverage in a lot of the modern tooling that it hasn't been able to leverage so far. >> And Mike, what would you say are the benefits that a fully automated lab could bring with increased fairness and data liquidity? >> Yeah, sure. Let's go five years into the future. I am a bench chemist, and I'm trying to get some results in, and it's amazing because I can look up everything the rest of my colleagues have ever done on this particular project with a single click of a button in a simple term set in natural language. I can then find and retrieve those results, easily visualize them in our platform or in any other platform I choose to use. And then I can inspect those, interrogate those, and say, "Actually, I'm going to be able to set up this automation cascade." I'll probably have it ready by the afternoon. All the data that's returned to me through this is going to be easily integratable, harmonized, and you're going to be able to find it, obviously. You're going to interoperate it with any system, so if I suddenly decide that I need to send a report over to another division in their preferred vis tool or data system of choice, great! I click three buttons, configure it. Boom. There goes that report to them. This should be a simple vision to achieve even faster than five years. And that data liquidity that enables you to sort of pass results around outside of your division, and outside of even your sort of company or division, to other who are able to see it should be fairly easy to achieve if all that data is ingested the right way. >> Well, I'd love to ask this next question to both of you. What is your defining contribution to the future of cloud scale? >> Mike, you want to go first? >> (chuckles) I would love to. So right now the pharmaceutical and life sciences companies, they aren't seeing data increase linearly. They're seeing it increase exponentially, right? We are living in the exabyte era, and really have on the internet since about 2016. It's only going to get bigger, and it's going to get bigger in a power law, right? So you're going to see, as sequencing comes on, as larger form microscopy comes on, and as more and more companies are taking on more and more data about each individual sample, retaining that data for longer, doing more analytics of that data, and also doing personalized medicine, right, more data about a specific patient, or animal, or cell line. You're just going to see this absolute data explosion. And because of that, the only thing you can really do to keep up with that is be in the cloud. On-prem, you will be buying disk drives and out of physical materials before you're going to outstrip the data. Michelle? >> Yeah. And, I think, to go along with not just the data storage scale, I think the compute scale. Mike is absolutely right. We're seeing personalized drugs. We're seeing customers that want to, within a matter of three, four hours, get to a personalized drug for patients. And that kind of scale on a compute basis not just requires a ton of data, but requires mass compute ability to be able to get it right, right? And so it really becomes this marriage of getting a huge amount of data, and getting the mass compute to be able to really leverage that per patient. And then the one thing that... Sort of enabling that ecosystem to come centrally together across such a diverse dataset is sort of that driving force. If you can get the data together but you can't compute it, if you can compute it but you can't get it together, it all needs to come together. Otherwise it just doesn't work. >> Yeah. Well, on your website you have all these great case studies, and I'd love it if you could outline some of your success stories for us, some specific, concrete examples. >> Sure. I'll take one first, and then they'll pass to Michelle. One really great concrete example is we were able to take data format processing for a biotech that had basically previously had instruments sitting off in a corner that they could not connect, were integratable for a high throughput screening cascade. We were able to bring them online. We were able to get the datasets interpretable, and get literally their processing time for these screens from the order of weeks to the order of minutes. So they could basically be doing probably a couple hundred more screens per year than they could have otherwise. Michelle? >> We have one customer that is in the process of automating their entire lab, even using robotics arms. So it's a huge mix of being able to ingest IoT data, send experiment data to them, understand sampling, getting the results back, and really automating that whole process, which when they even walked me through it, I was like, "Wow," and I'm like, "so cool." (chuckles) And there's a lot of... I think a lot of pharma companies want, and life science companies, want to move forward in innovation and do really creative and cool things for patients. But at the end of it, you sort of have to also realize it's like their core competency is focusing on drugs, and getting that to market, and making patients better. And we're just one part of that, really helping to enable that process and that ecosystem come to life, so it's really cool to watch. >> Right, right. And I mean, in this last year we've seen how critical the healthcare sector is to people all over the world. Now, looking forward, what do you anticipate some of the big innovations in the sector will be in the next five years, and where do you see TetraScience's role in that? >> So I think some of the larger innovations are... Mike mentioned one of them already. It's going to be sort of the personalized drugs the personalized health care. I think it is absolutely going to go to full lab automation to some degree, because who knows when the next pandemic will hit, right? And we're all going to have to go home, right? I think the days of trying to move around data manually and trying to work through that is just... If we don't plan for that to be a thing of the past, I think we're all going to do ourselves a disservice. So I think you'll see more automation. I think you'll see more personalization, and you'll see more things that leverage larger amounts of data. I think where we hope to sit is really at the ecosystem enablement part of that. We want to remain open. That's one of the cornerstones. We're not a single partner platform. We're not tied to any vendors. We really want to become that central aid and the ecosystem enabler for the labs. >> Yeah, to that point- >> And I'd also love to get your insight. >> Oh! Sorry. (chuckles) Thank you. To that point, we're really trying to unlock discovery, right? Many other horizontal cloud players will do something like you can upload files, or you can do some massive compute, but they won't have the vertical expertise that we do, right? They won't have the actual deep life sciences dedication. We have several PhDs, postdocs, et cetera, on staff who have done this for a living and can do this going forward. So you're going to see the realization of something that was really exciting in sort of 2005, 2006, that is fully automated experimentation. So get a robot to about an experiment, design it, have a human operator assist with putting together all the automation, and then run that over and over again cyclically until you get the result you want. I don't think that the compute was ready for that at the time. I don't think that the resources were up to snuff, but now you can do it, and you can do it with any tool, instrument, technique you want, because to Michelle's point, we're a vendor-agnostic partner networked platform. So you can actually assemble this learning automation cascade and have it run in the background while you go home and sleep. >> Yeah, and we often hear about automation, but tell us a little bit more specifically what is the harmonizing effect of TetraScience? I mean, that's not something that we usually hear, so what's unique about that? >> You want to take that, or you want me to go? >> You go, please. (chuckles) >> All right. So, really, it's about... It's about normalizing and harmonizing the data. And what does that... What that means is that whether you're a chromatography machine from, let's say Waters, or another vendor, ideally you'd like to be able to leverage all of your chromatography data and do research across all of it. Most of our customers have machinery that is of same sort from different customers, or sorry, from different vendors. And so it's really the ability to bring that data together, and sometimes it's even diverse instrumentation. So if I track a molecule, or a project, or a sample through one piece, one set of instrumentation, and I want to see how it got impacted in another set of instrumentation, or what the results were, I'm able to quickly and easily be able to sort of leverage that harmonized data and come to those results quickly. Mike, I'm sure you have a- >> May I offer a metaphor from something outside of science? Hopefully that's not off par for this, but let's say you had a parking lot, right, filled with different kinds of cars. And let's say you said at the beginning of that parking lot, "No, I'm sorry. We only have space right here for a Ford Fusion 2019 black with leather interior and this kind of tires." That would be crazy. You would never put that kind of limitation on who could park in a parking lot. So why do specific proprietary data systems put that kind of limitation on how data can be processed? We want to make it so that any car, any kind of data, can be processed and considered together in that same parking lot. >> Fascinating. Well, thank you both so much for your insights. Really appreciate it. Wonderful to hear about R&D Data Cloud movement in big pharma, and that of course is Michelle Bradbury, VP of Product at TetraScience, as well as Mike Tarselli, the Chief Scientific Officer at TetraScience. Thanks again very much for your insights. I'm your host for theCUBE, Natalie Erlich. Catch us again for the next session of the AWS Startup Session. Thank you. (smooth music)

>> From around the globe. It's theCUBE. With digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's ongoing coverage of IBM Think 2021. The virtual cube. You know, the pandemic has caused us to really rethink this whole concept of operational resilience. So we're going to dig into that and talk about the importance of constructing a holistic resilience plan and get the perspective of some really great domain experts. Allen Downs is the Vice President in Global Cloud Security and Resiliency Services at IBM. And he's joined by Ms. Michelle Weston who is the Director of Cloud Security and Resiliency Offerings at IBM. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Now, before we get into it, I said, IBM, but I want to ask you Allen, about an announcement you made last month about Kyndryl, new spinout from IBM. What can you tell us? >> Very excited about the name. I think there's a lot of meaning in the name censored around new growth and censored around partnership and relationship. So if you look at the name that was announced, I think it really does typify what we set out to be as a trusted partner in the industry. All born around new growth, censored around strong partnership and relationship. So very pleased and excited. I look forward to the opportunity we have going forward. >> Yeah. Congratulations on that. Add some clarity, Martin Schroeder, new CEO, Cube alum, great exec. Love it. So good luck. Allen, let me stay with you for a second. I mean, operational resilience it means different things to different people. And we know from speaking with CIOs in our community during the pandemic, it doesn't just mean Disaster Recovery. In fact, a lot of CIO said that their business continuing strategy were too focused on DR. Allen, what does operational resilience mean from your perspective? >> So I'll answer it this way. Operational resiliency risk is defined as the quantifiable steps is defined as the quantifiable steps that any client needs to take in order to respond, recover from an unplanned outage. It sits squarely within operational risk and if you think about it operational risk is the kind of non-financial element of risk and defined within that category, operational resiliency risk is trying to identify those steps, trying to identify those steps, both preactive and reactive both preactive and reactive that a client needs to consider that they would have to take in the event of an unplanned disruption or an unplanned outage that would impact their ability to serve their clients or to serve their organization. That's how I define operational resiliency risk. >> Great. And I wonder Michelle if you can add to that, but I think, you know, I sometimes say that the pandemic was like a forced march to digital and part of that was business resilience but you know, where do we go from here? You know, we had 14 months shoved into our face and now we have some time to think about. So how should clients think about evolving their strategies in this regard? >> Yeah, well certainly with respect to what was called NewCo now, Kyndryl, our approach has been advisory-led. We will help clients along this journey. One thing that I'd like to point out and one of the journeys that we've been taking over the last couple of years is it really is about security and resiliency together. If you think of that planning and how to mitigate your operational risk, if the security and resiliency go hand in hand, they're the same people within the organization that are planning for that and worried about it. And so we had already started about three years ago to pull the two together and to have a unified value proposition for clients around security and resiliency both being advisory-led doing everything for a client from project-based to the digital consumption world, which we know clients live in today to a fully managed service all around security and resiliency together. >> Yeah. So, I mean, it's a really important topic. I mean, you heard Chair Powell last month. He was, he was on 60 Minutes saying, well, yeah, yeah. We're worried about inflation but we're way more worried about the security. So, so Allen, where, let's say you're in the virtual conference room with the board of directors, what's that conversation like? Where does it start? >> I think there is a huge concern right now with regards to security and obviously resiliency as well. But if you just think about what we've all been through and what's transpired in the last 12 months, the, what we call the threat landscape has broadened significantly. And therefore clients have had to go through a rapid transformation not just by moving employees to home base, but also their clients having a much higher expectation in terms of access to systems, access to transactions, which are all digital. So you referred to it earlier but the transformation our clients have had to go on driving a higher dependence on those systems that enable them to serve their clients digitally and enable them to and allow the employees to work remotely in this period has increased the dependencies that they have across the environment that are running many of the critical business processes. So the discussion of the boardroom is very much, are we secure? Are we safe? How do we know? How safe and secure and resilient should we be? And based on that facts about how fit, safe and secure should we be, where are we today as an organization? And I think these are the questions that are at the boardroom. It's basically from a resiliency, security perspective where should we be that supports our strategy, vision and our client expectation? And then the second question is very much, where are we today? How do we know that we are secure? How do we know that we can recover from any unplanned or unforeseen disruption to our environments? >> So Michelle, I mean Allen just mentioned the threat surface is expanding and we're just getting started. Everybody's like crazy about 5G, leaning in the Edge, IoT and that's just going to be orders of magnitude by the end of the decade compared to where it is today. So how do you think about the key steps that organizations should take to ensure operational resilience? You know, not only today, but also putting in a roadmap. >> Yeah. Yeah. And one thing that we do know from our clients is those that have actually planned for resiliency and security at the forefront. They tend to do that more effectively and more efficiently. It's much better to do that than to try to do that after an outage. You'll certainly learn a lot but that's not the experience that you want to go through. You want to have that planning and strategy in the forefront as Allen said. In terms of the threat vector, the pandemic brought that on as well. We saw a surgent of cyber attacks, opportunistic attacks. You know, we saw the best of people in the pandemic as well as the worst in people. Some of those attacks were on agencies that were trying to recover or trying to treat the public with respect to the COVID-19 pandemic. So none of us can let our guard down here. I think we can anticipate that that's only going to increase. And with the emergence of these new technologies like Cloud, we know that there's been such a massive benefit to clients. In fact those that were Cloud-enabled sustained their businesses during the pandemic. Full stop. But with that comes a lot more complexity. Those threat vectors increased, 5G, I expect to be the same. So again, resiliency and security have never been more relevant, more important. We see a lot of our clients putting budget there and those that plan for it with a strategic mindset and understand that whatever they have today may be good enough, but in the future they're going to have to invest and continue to evolve that strategy, are those that have done the best. >> Yeah. The bolt-on strategy doesn't really work that well. But, and I, and I wonder if you think about when when we talk to CSOs for example, and you ask them, what's your biggest challenge? They'll say things like lack of talent. We got too many tools. It's just as we're under the hamsters on wheels. So I would think that's, you know, unfortunately for some, but it's good for your, your business. That's a dynamic that you can help with. I mean, you're a services organization. You've got deep expertise in this. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, that lack of talent that skills gap and how you guys address that. >> I think this is really the fit for managed services providers like Kyndryl. Certainly with some of our largest clients, if we look at Pettus as an example, that notion of phone a friend is really important. When it starts to go down, and you're not sure, you know, what you're going to do next, you want the expertise. You want to be able to phone someone and you want to be able to rely on them to help you recover your most critical data. One of the things clients have also been asking us for is a vaulted capability. Almost like the safe deposit box for your data and your critical applications being able to put them somewhere and then in the event of needing to recover, you certainly could call someone to help you do exactly that. >> Allen, I wonder if you could address this. I mean, I like IBM. I was, I'm a customer. I, I trust IBM, what's your relationship? Are you still going to, you know, be able to allow me to tap the pieces that I like and maybe you guys can be more agile in some respects? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, sure Dave. And many of our clients we have a long history with and a very positive experience of delivering, you know, market-leading and high, high quality of services and product. The relationship continues. So we will remain very close to IBM and we will continue to work with many of IBM's customers as well, IBM work with our customers going forward. So the relationship I believe whilst the different dynamic, will continue and I believe engenders an opportunity for growth. And, you know, we mentioned it earlier the very name signifies the fact that it's new growth. And I do think that partnership will continue and will continue together to deliver the type of service, the quality of products and services that our clients have you know, enjoyed from IBM over the last number of years. >> Michelle, I might take one of my takeaways from your earlier comments that you guys are hands on, consultative in nature. And I think about the comment I made about a lot of CIOs said we were way too, DR-focused, but when I think about DR, a lot of times it was a checkbox to the board. Hey, we got it. But when was the last time you tested it? Well, we don't test it because it's too risky to test. We do, we do fail over but we don't want to fail back because it's just too risky. Can I stress test? You know, my environment. Are we at the point now where technology and expertise will allow us to do that is that part of what you bring to the table? >> It is exactly what we bring to the table. So from a first of all, from a compliance and regulatory perspective, you no longer have that option. A lot of the auditors are asking you to demonstrate your DR plan. We have technology and I think we've talked about this before. About the automation that we have in our portfolio with resiliency orchestration that allows you to see the risk in your environment on a day-to-day basis, proactively manage it. I tried to recover this. There's a, there's a failure and then you're able to proactively address it. I also give the example from a resiliency work restoration perspective in this very powerful software automation that we have for DR. We've had clients that have come in scheduled a DR Test. It was to be all day they've ordered in lunch. And the DR Test fail over, fail back, took 22 minutes and lunch was canceled. (Dave laughs) >> I love it. >> So that is very powerful and very powerful with an auditor. >> That's awesome. Okay, guys, we got to leave it there. Really great to get the update. Best of luck to you. And congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. And thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's continuous coverage of IBM Think 2021. Be right back. (calm music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome to the cubes coverage of IBM. Think the digital experience I'm Lisa Martin. I've got two guests with me here today. Ryan Dennings joins us manager of ECM solutions at auto owners insurance company, Ryan, welcome to the program. Thank you. And Michelle Christianson is here as well. VP of enterprise report management practice at end choice, Michelle. It's good to have you on the program. Thank you. Thank you. So let's, let's go ahead and start with you. You guys are a customer of and choice and IBM, talk to us a little bit about auto owners company. I know this is a fortune 500. This was founded in 1916. You've got about nearly 3 million policy holders, but give us an overview of auto owners insurance. >>Sure. So I don't want to said insurance is an insurance company. That's headquartered in Lansing, Michigan. We write insurance in 26 States throughout the United States. Um, just by our name being auto owners insurance, which is how we started. Um, we write all personal lines, commercial lines and also have a life insurance company, >>So comprehensive and that across those nearly 3 million policy holders. Michelle, tell us a little bit about end choice. I know this, you guys are an IBM gold business partner, but this is end choices first time on the cubes. So give us a background. Sure, sure. Great. So in choice are an IBM gold business partner. Uh, we have had 28 years success with IBM as a business partner. Our headquarters are in areas, um, Austin, Texas, and, uh, Tempe, Arizona, as well as Shelton Connecticut. We cover all of North America and we are a hundred percent focused on the IBM digital business automation space. We have about 500 customers now that we've helped, uh, through the years. And we continue to be a leading support provider as well as an implementation partner with all the IBM solutions. And talk to me a little bit Michelle, about how it is that you work with with, um, auto owners. >>So we assisted auto owners recently in their digital transformation journey and they were, uh, dealing with an antiquated product and wanted to get for moving forward, you know, provided better customer satisfaction, um, experience, um, for their clients agents. And so we partnered with them and with IBM and bringing them a content manager on demand solution as well as navigator and several other products within the IBM digital business automation portfolio. Excellent client. Oh, sorry Michelle, go ahead. Nope. That's that's fine. All right, Ryan, tell us a little bit about auto owners, your relationship with IBM and choice and how is it helping you to address some, the challenges in the market today? >>Sure. So I don't know if this has a long-term relationship with IBM. Um, originally starting back as we go as a mainframe customer and then, you know, more recently, um, helping us with different modern technology initiatives. Uh, they were instrumental in the nineties when we created our initial web offerings. And then more recently they've been helping us with our digital business automation, which has helped us to, um, mature our content, offering it. >>So you have had a long standing relationship with IBM. Right. And you mentioned the nineties, ah, a time when we didn't have to wear a mask on our faces. So a couple of decades it goes back. Yeah. >>Yes. For sure. Yes. Even further than that back, you know, back into the seventies from the mainframe side of things, >>Uh, the seventies, another good time. All right. So Michelle had talked to me a little bit about what end choices doing with IBM solutions to help auto owners from a digital transformation perspective is as I said, this is a company that was founded in 1916. And I always love to hear how history companies like that are actually working with technology companies to facilitate that transformation a lot harder than it sounds well. That's correct. Just as I mentioned, we're focused on helping customers develop their strategies, their digital strategy and creating those transformative solutions. So we're helping organizations like auto owners, um, with their journey by first realizing, um, their existing, existing, digital state, what challenges they might have and what needs they might need. And then we break that down or we deconstruct those technical and process. And finally we re-invent, um, their strategic offering with modern capabilities. >>So we're focused on technologies like RPA machine learning, artificial intelligence, they're more efficient, scalable, and secure. So any way we can bring those technologies into the equation we go forward. So this offers us, our clients, um, smarter and more into intuitive interfaces, creating basically a better user experience and a better user experience then becomes disruptive to their competition. So they gain a better place in the market space. Ryan talked to us about that process as much as you were involved in it. I liked that Michelle said, you know, we kind of look at the environment, we deconstruct it and then we reinvent it. Talk to me about how IBM and enChoice have ha has helped auto owners to do that so that your digital infrastructure is much more modern. And I presume much more resilient when there are market dynamics like we're living in now. >>Yeah, for sure. So, you know, we've, we've gone through a couple of transformation journeys at auto owners with IBM. Um, when I started the team about seven years ago, we originally started using file NATS and data cap and case manager and content aggregator, um, as our first, um, movement from a traditional, um, platform that we had for content management into a more modern platform. And that helped us a lot to improve our business process, um, improve how we capture content and bring it into the system and make it actionable more recently, we've been working with Michelle and the team on our, um, migration to a content management on demand platform. And that's really going to be transformative in terms of how we're able to present content and documents and bills, um, to our agents and customers, um, to be able to transform that content and show it in ways that are, um, important, um, for our customers to be able to see it to, um, engage from, with auto owners in a, in a digital era. >>So Ryan, just a couple of questions on that is that, is that a facilitation of like the digitization of processes that had some paper involved cause you guys have about 48,000 agents. So a lot of folks, a lot of content, tell me a little bit more about how, um, that like content manager on demand, for example, and what you're doing with ETF, how has that really revolutionizing and driving part of that digital transformation? >>Sure. So, uh, you know, there's two parts to that in terms of that content management management on demand journey. Um, one is the technology portion of it, but IBM's provided and that suite of software gives us some functionality that we haven't had in the past. Um, specifically some functionality around searching and searchability of our content, um, that will make it easier for people to find the content that they're looking for, um, ability to implement, uh, records management policies and other things that help us manage that content more effectively, um, as well as, um, some different options to be able to present the content, uh, to our customers and agents in a, in a better and more modern way. Um, and I'm choices role rolling that has really been, sorry, guide us on that journey, um, to help us make the right choices along the way on the project and help us get to a successful implementation and production. >>Excellent. Michelle, talk to me about hybrid cloud AI data, a big theme of, uh, IBM think is your, how is enChoice using hybrid cloud and AI, you mentioned some of the ways, but kind of break into that a little bit more about how you're helping customers like auto owners and others really take advantage of those modern technologies. Well, sure, sure. So, um, of course with the Calpec offerings that IBM has come forward with and where we focus in the cloud Pak for automation, um, several of those offerings are, some of them are, um, uh, built specifically to, uh, survive or to, to, um, be hosted in a hybrid environment. And as we working with auto owners, um, transforming their platforms going forward, for example, they just invested in, in a, um, a, uh, I just lost the word here. I, they just invested in a new platform mainframe platform where they're going to be leveraging the red hats and from there they'll drive forward into containerization. >>So, um, Ryan mentioned, uh, some of the ways that we'll be presenting the content for his agents and his customers and a particular, um, that entire viewing platform itself can be moved to a containerization state. So, um, so it's going to be a lot easier for him to transition into that and to maintain it and to management manage it. And of course, um, just that whole, um, the ease of function around it will be a lot easier. So we are in our area as an IBM business partner. Um, we work with, uh, these solutions to try to stay ahead of the game, to try to be able to assist our customers to understand what makes sense, when is it time to move into those? Um, it's great to take advantage of the new stuff, but nobody wants to be, you know, the bleeding game. We want to be the leading game. >>And, um, so that's some of the areas we focus with our clients to really stay tight with the labs tight with IBM and understanding their strategies and convey those and educate our customers on those excellent leading edge. Ran, talk to me a little bit. I love this a bank, uh, sorry. Uh, an insurance company from the early 19 hundreds moving into the using container technology. I'll have stories like that. Talk to me a little bit about hybrid cloud AI and how those technologies are going to be facilitators of the continuation of the digital transformation and probably enabling more opportunities for your agents to meet more needs from, from your policy holders. >>Yeah, for sure. So, uh, first and foremost, um, we were a red hat open shift, uh, customer before IBM acquired them and we were doing microservices development and things like that on the platform. Um, and then we were super excited about IBM's digital business automation strategy to, uh, move to cloud pack, um, and have that available for software products to run on OpenShift. Um, at the end of last year, we updated our license thing so that we can move in that direction and we're starting to, um, deploy, um, digital business automation products on our OpenShift platform, which is super exciting for me. It's going to make for faster upgrades, more scalability. Um, just a lot of ease of use things, um, for my team, um, to make their jobs easier, but also easier for us to adapt new upgrades and software offerings from IBM. Um, there's also a number of products that are in the, um, containerized or OpenShift only offering as they're initially coming out, whether it's mobile capture or automated document processing, um, the same a couple, um, and those are both things that we're looking at auto owners to continue to mature in this space and be able to offer more functionality to our associates, our customers, and our agents, um, to continue to grow the business >>Very forward-thinking uh, awesome Ryan, thanks for sharing with us. What auto insurance or auto owners insurance is doing, how you're being successful and how, how you've done so much transformation already. I want to throw the last question to Michelle. Take us out Michelle with what's next from end choices perspective in terms of your digital transformation. Um, well we have been a hundred percent focus on helping all of our customers develop their digital strategy and, uh, and creating their own transformative solutions. So as we continue to work with our clients, take them through the journey. Um, as I mentioned before, we try to encourage them not to focus on the, the technology itself, but really to focus on creating their exceptional customer experience when driving their digital strategy. And we see ourselves as, you know, helping transform our clients experience such that, you know, customer experience becomes what enChoice does best. >>So we see not only our own organization going through the transformation, but making sure that we're taking our clients with us and with 500 clients, we're, we're really busy. So that's always good. That is good. It sounds like the last year has been, uh, very fruitful for you. And I love that you mentioned customer experience, Michelle. I think that is so important and as well as employee experience, but having a good customer experience, especially these days. Table-stakes I thank you both so much for sharing what you guys are doing with IBM solutions, the transformation that you're both of your companies are on, and we look forward to hearing what's to come. Thank you both for your time. Thank you. Thank you for Rand Dunnings and Michelle Christiansen. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of IBM. Think that digital experience.

>>from >>Around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back to the cubes ongoing coverage of IBM Think 2021 virtual cube, you know, the pandemic has caused us to really rethink this this whole concept of operational resilience and we're gonna dig into that and talk about the importance of constructing a holistic resilience plan and get the perspective of some really great domain experts. Alan Downs is the vice president, global Cloud security and resiliency services at IBM and he's joined by MS Michelle what? Weston who is the director of cloud security and resiliency offerings at IBM folks. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. >>Now before we get into it, I said IBM but I want to ask you, alan about an announcement you made last month about Kendrell new spin out from IBM. What can you tell us? >>Very excited about the name? I think there's a lot of meaning in the name centered around new growth and censored around partnership and relationship. So if you look at the name that was announced I think it really does typify what we set out to be as a trusted partner in the industry. All born around new growth centered around strong partnership and relationship. So very pleased and excited and look forward to the opportunity we have going forward. >>Yeah congratulations on that. Had some clarity martin schroder. New ceo Cubillan. Great executive love it. So good luck. Um Alan let me stay with you for a second. I mean operational resilience it means different things to different people and we know from speaking with C. IOS in our community during the pandemic. It doesn't just mean disaster recovery. In fact a lot of C. I. O. Said that their business continuing strategy were too focused on on D. R. Ellen. What does operational resilience mean from your perspective? >>So I'll answer it this way. Operational resiliency risk is defined as the quantifiable steps that any client needs to take in order to respond, recover from an unplanned outage. It sits squarely within operational risk. And if you think about it, operational risk is the kind of non financial element of risk. And defined within that category, operational resiliency risk is trying to identify those steps both pre active and reactive that a client needs to consider that they would have to take in the event of an unplanned disruption or an unplanned outage that would impact their ability to serve their clients or to serve their organization. That's how I define operational resiliency risk. >>Great and I wonder Michelle if you can add to that but I think you know I sometimes say that the pandemic was like a forced march to digital and part of that was business resilience. But You know, where do we go from here? You know, we had 14 months shoved into our face and now we have some time to think about. So how should clients think about evolving their strategies in this regard? >>Yeah, Well, certainly with respect to what was called Newco now, Kendrell, um our approach has been advisory led. Uh we will help clients along this journey. Uh, one thing that I'd like to point out in one of the journeys that we've been taking over the last couple of years is it really is about security and resiliency together. If you think of that planning and how to mitigate your operational risk, the security and resiliency go hand in hand through the same people within the organization that are planning for that and worried about it. And so we had already started about three years ago to pull the two together and to have a unified value proposition for clients around security and resiliency, both being advisory lead, doing everything for a client from project based to the digital consumption world which we know clients live in today to a fully managed service all around security and resiliency together. >>Yeah, so I mean it's really important topic. I mean you heard Chair Powell last month. He was he was on 60 minutes saying well yeah worried about inflation, were way more worried about security. So so alan you know, were let's say you're in the virtual, you know, conference room with the board of directors. What's that conversation like? Uh where does it start? >>I think there is a huge concern right now with regard to security and obviously resiliency as well. But if you just think about what we've all been through and what's transpired in the last 12 months, the what we call the threat landscape has broadened significantly and therefore clients have had to go through a rapid transformation not just by moving employees to home base, but also their clients having a much higher expectation in terms of access to systems, access to transactions which are all digital. So you referred to it earlier. But the transformation, our clients have had to go on driving a higher dependence on those systems that enable them to serve their clients digitally and enable them to allow the employees to work remotely in this period has increased the dependencies that they have across the environment that are running many of the critical business processes. So the discussion in the boardroom is very much are we secure? Are we safe? How do we know how safe and secure and resilient should we be? And based on that fact about how safe and secure should we be? Where are we today as an organization? And I think these are the questions that are at the boardroom is basically from a resiliency security perspective, where should we be that supports our strategy vision and our client expectation? And then the second question is very much where are we today? How do we know that we are secure? How do we know that we can recover from any unplanned or unforeseen disruption to our environments? >>So Michelle, I mean I just mentioned the threat surface is expanding and we're just getting started, everybody's like crazy about five G leaning in the edge Iot and that's just uh this could be orders of magnitude by the end of the decade compared to where it is today. So how do you think about the key steps that organizations should should take to ensure operational resilience, you know, not only today, but also putting in a road map. >>Yeah, yeah. And and one thing that we do know from our clients is those that have actually planned for resiliency and security at the forefront. They tend to do that more effectively and more efficiently. Um It's much better to do that than to try to do that after an outage. You certainly learn a lot. Um but that's not the experience that you want to go through. You want to have that planning and strategy in the forefront. As Alan said in terms of the threat vector, the pandemic brought that on as well. We saw surgeons Of cyberattacks, opportunistic attacks. Um you know, we saw the best of people in the pandemic as well as the worst in people. Some of those attacks were on agencies that we're trying to recover. We're trying to treat the public with respect to the COVID-19 pandemic. So none of us can let our guard down here. I think we can anticipate that that's only going to increase. And with the emergence of these new technologies like cloud, we know that there's been such a massive benefit to clients. In fact those that were cloud enabled to sustain their businesses during the pandemic full stop. But with that comes a lot more complexity. Those threat vectors increase five G. I expect to be the same. So again, resilience and security have never been more relevant. More important, we see a lot of our clients putting budget there and those that plan for it with a strategic mindset and understand that whatever they have today may be good enough, but in the future they're going to have to invest and continue to evolve that strategy. Are those that have done the best. >>Yeah, the bolt on strategy doesn't doesn't really work that well, but and I wonder if you think about when we talk to CSOS for example, and you ask them what's your biggest challenge? They'll say things like lack of talent. We got too many tools. It's just as we're on the hamsters on wheels. So I would think that's, you know, unfortunately for some, but it's good for your, your business. That's that's a dynamic that you can help with. I mean you're a services organization, you got deep expertise in this. So I wonder if you could, could talk a little bit about that, that lack of talent, that skills gap and how you guys address that. >>I think this is really the fit for managed services providers like Kendrell, um, certainly with some of our largest clients, if we look at Peta as an example, that notion of phone a friend is really important when it starts to go down and you're not sure what you're gonna do next. You want the expertise, you want to be able to phone someone and you want to be able to rely on them to help you recover your most critical data. One of the things clients have also been asking us for is a vaulted capability, almost like the safe deposit box for your data and your critical applications. Being able to put them somewhere and then in the event of needing to recover, um, you certainly could call someone to help you do exactly that >>Ellen. I wonder if you can address this. I mean, I like IBM I was I'm a customer. I trust IBM. What's your relationship? Are you still gonna, you know, be able to allow me to tap the pieces that that I like and maybe you guys can be more agile in some respects, maybe you can talk about that a little bit. >>She has Sure, Dave and many of our clients, we have a long history with a very positive experience of delivering, you know, market leading and high high quality of services and product the relationship continue. So we will remain very close to IBM and we will continue to work with many of IBM's customers as will IBM work with our customers going forward. So the relationship, I believe whilst a different dynamic will continue and I believe engenders an opportunity for growth and you know, we mentioned earlier the very name signifies the fact that it's new growth and I do think that that partnership will continue and we'll continue together to deliver the type of service, the quality of products and services that our clients have, you know, enjoyed from IBM over the last number of years, >>Michelle my, one of my takeaway from your earlier comments as you guys are hands on consultative in nature. Um, and I think about the comment I made about a lot of Ceo said we were way too d our focus. But when I think about d are a lot of times it was a checkbox to the board. Hey, we got it. But it was last time you tested it. Well, we don't test it because it's too risky to test. You know, we, we do fail over, but we don't fail back because it's just too risky. Can I stress test, you know, my environment, we, at the point now where technology and expertise will allow us to do that is that part of what you bring to the table? >>It is exactly exactly what we bring to the table. So from a first of all, from a compliance and regulatory perspective, you no longer have that option. A lot of the auditors are asking you to demonstrate your d our plan. We have technology and I think we've talked about this before about the automation that we have in our portfolio with resiliency orchestration that allows you to see the risk in your environment on a day to day basis. Proactively manage it. I tried to recover this, there's a there's a failure and then you're able to proactively address it. I also give the example from a resiliency orchestration perspective in this very powerful software automation that we have for D. R. We've had clients that have come in scheduled A. D. R. Test, it was to be all day they've ordered in lunch And the D. R. test fail over failed back took 22 minutes and lunch was canceled. >>I love >>it. Very powerful and very powerful with an auditor. >>That's awesome. Okay guys, we've got to leave it there. Really great to get the update. Best of luck to you and congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you so much >>and thank you for watching. This is Dave Volonte for the cubes continuous coverage of IBM think 2021 right back. >>Mhm.

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think, The Digital Experience. I'm Lisa Martin. I've got two guests with me here today. Ryan Dennings joins us, Manager of ECM Solutions at Auto-Owners Insurance Company, Ryan, welcome to the program. >> Thank you. And Michelle Christensen is here as well, VP of Enterprise Report Management Practice at enChoice, Michelle, it's good to have you on the program. >> Thank you. Thank you. So let's, Ryan let's go ahead and start with you. You guys are a customer of enChoice and IBM, talk to us a little bit about Auto-Owners Company. I know this is a fortune 500. This was founded in 1916. You've got about nearly 3 million policy holders but give us an overview of Auto-Owners Insurance. >> Sure. So Auto-Owners Insurance is an insurance company that's headquartered in Lansing, Michigan. We write insurance in 26 States throughout the United States. Despite our name being Auto-Owners Insurance, which is how we started, we write all personal lines, commercial lines, and also have a life insurance company. >> So comprehensive and that across those nearly 3 million policy holders. Michelle, tell us a little bit about enChoice. I know this, you guys are an IBM Gold Business Partner but this is enChoice's first time on the Cube, so give us a background. >> Sure, sure, great. So enChoice are an IBM Gold Business Partner. We have had 28 years success with IBM as a business partner. Our headquarters are in areas of Austin, Texas, and Tempe, Arizona, as well as Shelton, Connecticut. We cover all of North America and we are a hundred percent focused on the IBM Digital Business Automation Space. We have about 500 customers now that we've helped through the years and we continue to be a leading support provider as well as an implementation partner with all the IBM Solutions. >> And talk to me a little bit Michelle about how it is that you work with with Auto-Owners. >> So we assisted Auto-Owners recently in their digital transformations journey and they were dealing with an antiquated product and wanted to get moving forward, you know provide a better customer satisfaction experience for their client's agents, and so we partnered with them and with IBM and bringing them a content manager on-demand solution as well as navigator and several other products within the IBM Digital Business Automation Portfolio. >> Excellent, Ryan Oh, sorry Michelle, go ahead. >> Nope. That's that's fine. All right, Ryan, tell us a little bit about Auto-Owners, your relationship with IBM and enChoice and how is it helping you to address some of the challenges in the market today? >> Sure. So Auto-Owners has a long-term relationship with IBM originally starting back years ago as a mainframe customer and then, you know more recently helping us with different modern technology initiatives. They were instrumental in the nineties when we redid our initial web offerings, and then more recently they've been helping us with our Digital Business Automation which has helped us to mature our content offering at Owners. >> So you have had a long standing relationship with IBM, Ryan, and then you mentioned the nineties at a time when we didn't have to wear masks on our faces. (laughing) So a couple of decades it goes back, yeah? >> Yes. For sure. Yes. Even further than that, that, you know back into the seventies from the mainframe side of things. >> The seventies, another good time. (laughing) All right. So Michelle, talk to me a little bit about what enChoice is doing with IBM Solutions to help Auto-Owners from a digital transformation perspective is as I said this is a company that was founded in 1916, and I always love to hear how history companies like that are actually working with technology companies to facilitate that transformation. It's a lot harder than it sounds. >> Well, that's correct. Yes. As I mentioned, we're focused on helping customers develop their strategy, their digital strategy and creating those transformative solutions. So we're helping organizations like Auto-Owners with their journey, by first realizing their existing digital state, what challenges they might have and what needs they might need, and then we break that down or we deconstruct those technical and processizations and finally we re-invent their strategic offering with modern capabilities. So we're focused on technologies like RPA, machine learning, artificial intelligence, they're more efficient, scalable, and secure, so any way we can bring those technologies into the equation we go for it. So this offers us, our clients smarter and more intuitive interfaces creating basically a better user experience, and a better user experience then becomes disruptive to their competition. So they gain a better place in the market space. >> Ryan talked to us about that process as much as you were involved in it. I liked that Michelle said, you know we kind of look at the environment, we deconstruct it and then we re-invent it. Talk to me about how IBM and enChoice has helped Auto-Owners to do that so that your digital infrastructure is much more modern, and I presume much more resilient when there are market dynamics like we're living in now. >> Yeah, for sure. So, you know, we've, we've gone through a couple of transformation journeys at Auto-Owners with IBM. When I started the team about seven years ago we originally started using file NATS and data cap, and case manager, and content aggregator as our first movement from a traditional platform that we had for content management into a more modern platform, and that helped us a lot to improve our business process, improve how we capture content and bring it into the system and make it actionable. More recently, we've been working with Michelle and the enChoice team on our migration to a content management on-demand platform, and that's really going to be transformative in terms of how we're able to present content and documents and bills to our agents and customers, to be able to transform that content and show it in ways that are important for our customers to be able to see it, to engage with Auto-Owners in a, in a digital era. >> So Ryan, just a couple of questions on that, is that is that a facilitation of like the digitization of processes that had some paper involved cause you guys have about 48,000 agents, so a lot of folks, a lot of content, tell me a little bit more about how that like content manager on-demand, for example and what you're doing with ECF, how has that really revolutionizing and driving part of that digital transformation? >> Sure. So, you know, there's two parts to that in terms of that content management on-demand journey. One is the technology portion of it, but IBM's provided, and that suite of software gives us some functionality that we haven't had in the past. Specifically, some functionality around searching and searchability of our content that will make it easier for people to find the content that they're looking for, ability to implement records management policies and other things that help us manage that content more effectively, as well as some different options to be able to present the content to our customers and agents in a in a better and more modern way and enChoice's role in that has really been to guide us on that journey to help us make the right choices along the way on the project and help us get to a successful implementation and production. >> Excellent. Michelle, talk to me about Hybrid Cloud AI Data a big theme of IBM Think this year. How is enChoice using Hybrid Cloud and AI? You mentioned some of the other ways but kind of break into that a little bit more about how you're helping customers like Auto-Owners and others really take advantage of those modern technologies. >> Well, sure, sure. So of course with the Cloud Pak offerings that IBM has come forward with and where we focus in the Cloud Pak for automation, several of those offerings are some of them are built specifically to survive or to to be hosted in a hybrid environment, and as we're working with Auto-Owners transforming their platforms going forward for example, they just invested in, in a, a I just lost the word here. They just invested in a, a new platform, mainframe platform where they're going to be leveraging the red hats, and from there they'll drive forward into containerization. So Ryan mentioned some of the ways that we'll be presenting the content for his agents and his customers in a particular that entire viewing platform itself can be moved to a containerization state. So, so it's going to be a lot easier for him to transition into that and to maintain it and to manage it. And of course, just that whole, the ease of function around it will be a lot easier. So we are in our area as an IBM business partner, we work with these solutions to try to stay ahead of the game, to try to be able to assist our customers to understand what makes sense, when is it time to move into those. It's great to take advantage of the new stuff but nobody wants to be, you know, the bleeding game. We want to be the leading game. And so that's some of the areas we focus with our clients to really stay tight with the labs, tight with IBM and understanding their strategies and convey those and educate our customers on those. >> Excellent leading edge. Ryan, talk to me a little bit. I love this a bank, sorry an insurance company from the early 1900's moving into the using container technology. I love stories like that. Talk to me a little bit about Hybrid Cloud AI and how those technologies are going to be facilitators of the continuation of the digital transformation, and probably enabling more opportunities for your agents to meet more needs from from your policy holders. >> Yeah, for sure. So first and foremost, we were a Red Hat OpenShift customer before IBM acquired them and we were doing microservices development and things like that on the platform, and then we were super excited about IBM's digital business automation strategy to move to a Cloud Pak and have that available for software products to run on OpenShift. At the end of last year, we updated our licensing so that we can move in that direction, and we're starting to deploy digital business automation products on our OpenShift platform which is super exciting for me. It's going to make for faster upgrades, more scalability, just a lot of ease of use things for my team to make their jobs easier but also easier for us to adapt new upgrades and software offerings from IBM. There's also a number of products that are in the containerized or OpenShift only offering as they're initially coming out, whether it's mobile capture or automated document processing to name a couple. And those are both things that we're looking at Auto-Owners to continue to mature in this space and be able to offer more functionality to our associates, our customers, and our agents to continue to grow the business. >> Very forward-thinking, awesome Ryan. Thanks for sharing with us what Auto-Owners Insurance is doing, how you're being successful and how you've done so much transformation already. I want to throw the last question to Michelle. Take us out Michelle with what's next from enChoice's perspective in terms of your digital transformation. >> Well, we have been a hundred percent focused on helping all of our customers develop their digital strategy and and creating their own transformative solutions. So as we continue to work with our clients, take them through the journey, as I mentioned before, we try to encourage them not to focus on the, the technology itself, but really to focus on creating their exceptional customer experience when driving their digital strategy. And we see ourselves as, you know helping transform our client's experience such that you know customer experience becomes what enChoice does best. So we see not only our own organization going through the transformation, but making sure that we're taking our clients with us and with 500 clients we're, we're really busy. So that's always good. >> That is good. It sounds like the last year has been very fruitful for you, and I love that you mentioned customer experience, Michelle. I think that is so important and as well as employee experience, but having a good customer experience, especially these days. Table-stakes. I thank you both so much for sharing what you guys are doing with IBM Solutions, the transformation that both of your companies are on and we look forward to hearing what's to come. Thank you both for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for Ryan Dennings and Michelle Christiansen. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think The Digital Experience. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody Jeffrey Frick with theCUBE. We are getting through the COVID crisis. It continues and impacting the summer. I can't believe the summer's almost over, but there's a whole lot of things going on in terms of privacy and contact tracing and this kind of this feeling that there's this conflict between kind of personal identification and your personal privacy versus the public good around things like contact tracing. And I was in a session last week with two really fantastic experts. I wanted to bring them on the show and we're really excited to have back for I don't even know how many times Michelle has been on Michelle Dennedy, She is the former chief privacy officer at Cisco and now she's running the CEO of Identity, Michelle great to see you. >> Good to see you always Jeff >> Yeah and for the first time Dr. Ann Cavoukian and she is the executive director Global Privacy & Security By Design Center. Joining us from Toronto, worked with the government and is not short on opinions about privacy. (laughing) Ann good to see you. >> Hi Jeff thank you >> Yes, so let's jump into it cause I think one of the fundamental issues that we keep hearing is this zero-sum game. And I know and it's a big topic for you that there seems to be this trade off this either or and specifically let's just go to contact tracing. Cause that's a hot topic right now with COVID. I hear that it's like you're telling everybody where I'm going and you're sharing that with all these other people. How is this even a conversation and where do I get to choose whether I want to participate or not? >> You can't have people traced and tracked and surveil. You simply can't have it and it can't be an either or win lose model. You have to get rid of that data. Zero-sum game where only one person can win and the other one loses and it sums to a total of zero. Get rid of that, that's so yesterday. You have to have both groups winning positive sum. Meaning yes, you need public health and public safety and you need privacy. It's not one versus the other. We can do both and that's what we insist upon. So the contact term tracing app that was developed in Canada was based on the Apple Google framework, which is actually called exposure notification. It's totally privacy protective individuals choose to voluntarily download this app. And no personal information is collected whatsoever. No names, no geolocation data, nothing. It's simply notifies you. If you've been exposed to someone who is COVID-19 positive, and then you can decide on what action you wish to take. Do you want to go get tested? Do you want to go to your family doctor, whatever the decision lies with you, you have total control and that's what privacy is all about. >> Jeffrey: But what about the person who was sick? Who's feeding the top into that process and is the sick person that you're no notifying they obviously their personal information is part of that transaction. >> what the COVID alerts that we developed based on the Apple Google framework. It builds on manual contact tracing, which also take place the two to compliment each other. So the manual contact tracing is when individuals go get to get tested and they're tested as positive. So healthcare nurses will speak to that individual and say, please tell us who you've been in contact with recently, family, friends, et cetera. So the two work together and by working together, we will combat this in a much more effective manner. >> Jeffrey: So shifting over to you Michelle, you know, there's PIN and a lot of conversations all the time about personal identifiable information but right. But then medical has this whole nother class of kind of privacy restrictions and level of care. And I find it really interesting that on one hand, you know, we were trying to do the contract tracing on another hand if you know, my wife works in a public school. If they find out that one of the kids in this class has been exposed to COVID somehow they can't necessarily tell the teacher because of HIPAA restriction. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on this kind of crossover between privacy and health information when it gets into this kind of public crisis and this inherent conflict for the public right to know and should the teacher be able to be told and it's not a really clean line with a simple answer, I don't think. >> No and Jeff, and you're also layering, you know, when you're talking about student data, you layering another layer of legal restriction. And I think what you're putting your thumb on is something that's really critical. When you talk about privacy engineering, privacy by design and ethics engineering. You can't simply start with the legal premise. So is it lawful to share HIPAA covered data. A child telling mommy I don't feel well not HIPAA covered. A child seeing a doctor for medical services and finding some sort of infection or illness covered, right? So figuring out the origin of the exact same zero one. Am I ill or not, all depends on context. So you have to first figure out, first of all let's tackle the moral issues. Have we decided that it is a moral imperative to expose certain types of data. And I separate that from ethics intentionally and with apologies to true ethicists. The moral imperative is sort of the things we find are so wrong. We don't want a list of kids who are sick or conversely once the tipping point goes the list of kids who are well. So then they are called out that's the moral choice. The ethical choice is just because you can should you, and that's a much longer conversation. Then you get to the legal imperative. Are you allowed to based on the past mistakes that we made. That's what every piece of litigation or legislation is particularly in a common law construct in the US. It's very important to understand that civil law countries like the European theater. They try to prospectively legislate for things that might go wrong. The construct is thinner in a common law economy where you do, you use test cases in the courts of law. That's why we are such a litigious society has its own baggage. But you have to now look at is that legal structure attempting to cover past harms that are so bad that we've decided as a society to punish them, is this a preventative law? And then you finally get to what I say is stage four for every evaluation is isn't viable, are the protections that you have to put on top of these restrictions. So dire that they either cannot be maintained because of culture process or cash or it just doesn't make sense anymore. So does it, is it better to just feel someone's forehead for illness rather than giving a blood assay, having it sent away for three weeks and then maybe blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. >> Right. >> You have to look at this as a system problem solving issue. >> So I want to look at it in the context of, again kind of this increased level of politicization and or, you know, kind of exposure outside of what's pretty closed. And I want to bring up AIDS and the porn industry very frankly right? Where people behaving in the behavior of the business risk a life threatening disease of which I still don't think it as a virus. So you know why, cause suddenly, you know, we can track for that and that's okay to track for that. And there's a legitimate reason to versus all of the other potential medical conditions that I may or may not have that are not necessarily brought to bear within coming to work. And we might be seeing this very soon. As you said, if people are wanting our temperatures, as we come in the door to check for symptoms. How does that play with privacy and healthcare? It's still fascinates me that certain things is kind of pop out into their own little bucket of regulation. I'm wondering if you could share your thoughts on that Ann. >> You know, whenever you make it privacy versus fill in the blank, especially in the context of healthcare. You end up turning it to a lose lose as opposed to even a win lose. Because you will have fewer people wanting to allow themselves to be tested, to be brought forward for fear of where that information may land. If it lands in the hands of your employer for example or your whoever owns your house if you're in renting, et cetera. It creates enormous problems. So regardless of what you may think of the benefits of that model. History has shown that it doesn't work well that people end up shying away from being tested or seeking treatment or any of those things. Even now with the contact tracing apps that have been developed. If you look globally the contact tracing apps for COVID-19. They have failed the ones that identify individuals in the UK, in Australia, in Western Canada that's how it started out. And they've completely dropped them because they don't work. People shy away from them. They don't use them. So they've gotten rid of that. They've replaced it with the, an app based on the Apple Google framework, which is the one that protects privacy and will encourage people to come forward and seek to be tested. If there's a problem in Germany. Germany is one of the largest privacy data protection countries in the world. Their privacy people are highly trusted in Germany. Germany based their app on the Apple Google framework. About a month ago they released it. And within 24 hours they had 6.5 million people download the app. >> Right. >> Because there is such trust there unlike the rest of the world where there's very little trust and we have to be very careful of the trust deficit. Because we want to encourage people to seek out these apps so they can attempt to be tested if there's a problem, but they're not going to use them. They're just going to shy away from them. If there is such a problem. And in fact I'll never forget. I did an interview about a month ago, three weeks ago in the US on a major major radio station that has like 54 million people followers. And I was telling them about the COVID alert the Canadian contact tracing app, actually it's called exposure notification app, which was built on the Apple Google framework. And people in hoard said they wouldn't trust anyone with it in the US. They just wouldn't trust it. So you see there's such a trust deficit. That's what we have to be careful to avoid. >> So I want to hold on the trust for just a second, but I want to go back to you Michelle and talk about the lessons that we can learn post 9/11. So the other thing right and keep going back to this over and over. It's not a zero-sum game. It's not a zero-sum game and yet that's the way it's often positioned as a way to break down existing barriers. So if you go back to 9/11 probably the highest profile thing being the Patriot Act, you know, where laws are put in place to protect us from terrorism that are going to do things that were not normally allowed to be done. I bet without checking real exhaustively that most of those things are still in place. You know, cause a lot of times laws are written. They don't go away for a long time. What can we learn from what happened after 9/11 and the Patriot Act and what should be really scared of, or careful of or wary of using that as a framework for what's happening now around COVID and privacy. >> It's a perfect, it's not even an analogy because we're feeling the shadows of the Patriot Act. Even now today, we had an agreement from the United States with the European community until recently called the Privacy Shield. And it was basically if companies and organizations that were, that fell under the Federal Trade Commissions jurisdiction, there's a bit of layering legal process here. But if they did and they agreed to supply enough protection to data about people who were present in the European Union to the same or better level than the Europeans would. Then that information could pass through this Privacy Shield unencumbered to and from the United States. That was challenged and taken down. I don't know if it's a month ago or if it's still March it's COVID time, but very recently on basis that the US government can overly and some would say indifferent nations, improperly look at European data based on some of these Patriot Act, FISA courts and other intrusive mechanisms that absolutely do apply if we were under the jurisdiction of the United States. So now companies and private actors are in the position of having to somehow prove that they will mechanize their systems and their processes to be immune from their own government intrusion before they can do digital trade with other parts of the world. We haven't yet seen the commercial disruption that will take place. So the unintended consequence of saying rather than owning the answers or the observations and the intelligence that we got out of the actual 9/11 report, which said we had the information we needed. We did not share enough between the agencies and we didn't have the decision making activity and will to take action in that particular instance. Rather than sticking to that knowledge. Instead we stuck to the Patriot Act, which was all but I believe to Congress people. When I mean, you see the hot mess. That is the US right now. When everyone but two people in the room vote for something on the quick. There's probably some sort of a psychological gun to your head. That's probably well thought out thing. We fight each other. That's part of being an American dammit. So I think having these laws that say, you've got to have this one solution because the boogeyman is coming or COVID is coming or terrorists or child pornographers are coming. There's not one solution. So you really have to break this down into an engineering problem and I don't mean technology when I say engineering. I mean looking at the culture, how much trust do you have? Who is the trusted entity? Do we trust Microsoft more than we trust the US government right now? Maybe that might be your contact. How you're going to build people, process and technology not to avoid a bad thing, but to achieve a positive objective because if you're not achieving that positive objective of understanding that safe to move about without masks on, for example, stop, just stop. >> Right, right. My favorite analogy Jeff, and I think I've said this to you in the past is we don't sit around and debate the merits of viscosity of water to protect concrete holes. We have to make sure that when you lead them to the concrete hole, there's enough water in the hole. No, you're building a swimming pool. What kind of a swimming pool do you want? Is it commercial, Is it toddlers? Is it (indistinct), then you build in correlation, protection and da da da da. But if you start looking at every problem as how to avoid hitting a concrete hole. You're really going to miss the opportunity to build and solve the problem that you want and avoid the risk that you do not want. >> Right right, and I want to go back to you on the trust thing. You got an interesting competent in that other show, talking about working for the government and not working directly for the people are voted in power, but for the kind of the larger bureaucracy and agency. I mean, the Edelman Trust Barometer is really interesting. They come out every year. I think it's their 20th year. And they break down kind of like media, government and business. And who do you trust and who do you not trust? What what's so fascinating about the time we're in today is even within the government, the direction that's coming out is completely diametrically opposed oftentimes between the Fed, the state and the local. So what does kind of this breakdown of trust when you're getting two different opinions from the same basic kind of authority due to people's ability or desire to want to participate and actually share the stuff that maybe or maybe not might get reshared. >> It leaves you with no confidence. Basically, you can't take confidence in any of this. And when I was privacy commissioner. I served for three terms, each term that was a different government, different political power in place. And before they had become the government, they were all for privacy and data protection believed in and all that. And then once they became the government all that changed and all of a sudden they wanted to control everyone's information and they wanted to be in power. No, I don't trust government. You know, people often point to the private sector as being the group you should distrust in terms of privacy. I say no, not at all. To me far worse is actually the government because everyone thinks they're there to do good job and trust them. You can't trust. You have to always look under the hood. I always say trust but verify. So unfortunately we have to be vigilant in terms of the protections we seek for privacy both with private sector and with the government, especially with the government and different levels of government. We need to ensure that people's privacy remains intact. It's preserved now and well into the future. You can't give up on it because there's some emergency a pandemic, a terrorist incident whatever of course we have to address those issues. But you have to insist upon people's privacy being preserved. Privacy forms the foundation of our freedom. You cannot have free and open societies without a solid foundation of privacy. So I'm just encouraging everyone. Don't take anything at face value, just because the government tells you something. It doesn't mean it's so always look under the hood and let us ensure the privacy is strongly protected. See emergencies come and go. The pandemic will end. What cannot end is our privacy and our freedom. >> So this is a little dark in here, but we're going to lighten it up a little bit because there's, as Michelle said, you know, if you think about building a pool versus putting up filling a hole, you know, you can take proactive steps. And there's a lot of conversation about proactive steps and I pulled Ann your thing Privacy by Design, The 7 Foundational Principles. I have the guys pull up a slide. But I think what's really interesting here is, is you're very, very specific prescriptive, proactive, right? Proactive, not reactive. Privacy is the default setting. You know, don't have to read the ULAs and I'm not going to read the, all the words we'll share it. People can find it. But what I wanted to focus on is there is an opportunity to get ahead of the curve, but you just have to be a little bit more thoughtful. >> That's right, and Privacy By Design it's a model of prevention, much like a medical model of prevention where you try to prevent the harms from arising, not just deal with them after the facts through regulatory compliance. Of course we have privacy laws and that's very important, but they usually kick in after there's been a data breach or privacy infraction. So when I was privacy commissioner obviously those laws were intact and we had to follow them, but I wanted something better. I wanted to prevent the privacy harms from arising, just like a medical model of prevention. So that's a Privacy By Design is intended to do is instantiate, embed much needed privacy protective measures into your policies, into your procedures bake it into the code so that it has a constant presence and can prevent the harms from arising. >> Jeffrey: Right right. One of the things I know you love to talk about Michelle is compliance, right? And is compliance enough. I know you like to talk about the law. And I think one of the topics that came up on your guys' prior conversation is, you know, will there be a national law, right? GDPR went through on the European side last year, the California Protection Act. A lot of people think that might become the model for more of a national type of rule. But I tell you, when you watch some of the hearings in DC, you know, I'm sure 90% of these people still print their emails and have their staff hand them to them. I mean, it's really scary that said, you know, regulation always does kind of lag probably when it needs to be put in place because people maybe abuse or go places they shouldn't go. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on where you think legislation is going to going and how should people kind of see that kind of playing out over the next several years, I guess. >> Yeah, it's such a good question Jeff. And it's like, you know, I think even the guys in Vegas are having trouble with setting the high laws on this. Cameron said in I think it was December of 2019, which was like 15 years ago now that in the first quarter of 2020, we would see a federal law. And I participated in a hearing at the Senate banking committee, again, November, October and in the before times. I'm talking about the same thing and here we are. Will we have a comprehensive, reasonable, privacy law in the United States before the end of this president's term. No, we will not. I can say that with just such faith and fidelity. (laughing) But what does that mean? And I think Katie Porter who I'm starting to just love, she's the Congresswoman who's famous for pulling on her white board and just saying, stop fudging the numbers. Let's talk about the numbers. There's about a, what she calls the 20% legislative flip phone a caucus. So there are 20% or more on both sides of the aisle of people in the US who are in the position of writing our laws. who are still on flip phones and aren't using smart phones and other kinds of technologies. There's a generation gap. And as much as I can kind of chuckle at that a little bit and wink, wink, nudge, nudge, isn't that cute. Because you know, my dad, as you know, is very very technical and he's a senior citizen. This is hard. I hope he doesn't see that but... (laughing) But then it's not old versus young. It's not let's get a whole new group and crop and start over again. What it is instead and this is, you know, as my constant tome sort of anti compliance. I'm not anti compliance. You got to put your underwear on before your pants or it's just really hard. (laughing) And I would love to see anyone who is capable of putting their underwater on afterwards. After you've made the decision of following the process. That is so basic. It comes down to, do you want the data that describes or is donated or observed about human beings. Whether it's performance of your employees. People you would love to entice onto your show to be a guest. People you'd like to listen and consume your content. People you want to meet. People you want to marry. Private data as Ann says, does the form the foundation of our freedom, but it also forms the foundation of our commerce. So that compliance, if you have stacked the deck proactively with an ethics that people can understand and agree with and have a choice about and feel like they have some integrity. Then you will start to see the acceleration factor of privacy being something that belongs on your balance sheet. What kind of data is high quality, high nutrition in the right context. And once you've got that, you're in good shape. >> I'm laughing at privacy on the balance sheet. We just had a big conversation about data on the balance sheets. It's a whole, that's a whole another topic. So we can go for days. I have Pages and pages of notes here. But unfortunately I know we've got some time restrictions. And so, and I want to give you the last word as you look forward. You've been in this for a while. You've been in it from the private side, as well as the government side. And you mentioned lots of other scary things, kind of on the horizon. Like the kick of surveillance creep, which there's all kinds of interesting stuff. You know, what advice do you give to citizens. What advice do you give to leaders in the public sector about framing the privacy conversation >> I always want to start by telling them don't frame privacy as a negative. It's not a negative. It's something that can build so much. If you're a business, you can gain a competitive advantage by strongly protecting your customer's privacy because then it will build such loyalty and you'll gain a competitive advantage. You make it work for you. As a government you want your citizens to have faith in the government. You want to encourage them to understand that as a government you respect their privacy. Privacy is highly contextual. It's only the individual who can make determinations relating to the disclosure of his or her personal information. So make sure you build that trust both as a government and as a business, private sector entity and gain from that. It's not a negative at all, make it work for you, make it work for your citizens, for your customers, make it a plus a win win that will give you the best returns. >> Isn't it nice when doing the right thing actually provides better business outcomes too. It's like diversity of opinion and women on boards. And kind of things- >> I love that. we cover these days. >> Well ladies, thank you very very much for your time. I know you've got a hard stop, so I'm going to cut you loose or else we would go for probably another hour and a half, but thank you so much for your time. Thank you for continuing to beat the drum out there and look forward to our next conversation. Hopefully in the not too distant future. >> My pleasure Jeff. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you too. >> All right She's Michelle. >> She's Ann. I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE's studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi and welcome to a special CUBE Conversation, I'm Stu Miniman and happy to welcome back to the program, Michelle Peluso. She is the Senior Vice President of Digital Sales as well as the Chief Marketing Officer for IBM. Michelle, thanks so much for joining us. >> Hey Stu, great to see you again. Boy we had fun at Think, thank you so much for your help. >> Yeah, well Michelle, I'm really excited to, you know, get a little bit of the inside what happened from your end. Got to talk to you, you know, at the show, instead of 20,000 people, you know, dealing with San Francisco and Moscone and everything there. You had, if I read right, 100,000 people at least registered for the digital event, you know, bring us inside a little bit the control center, what was it like being part of that event, your team, of course, all distributed, and you know, anything surprise you during that event, >> Well it was nerve wracking. (laughing) Look, what an exciting thing, and kudos to the team for so much innovation. I mean, we had in 60 days to build a platform. Of course, using IBM technology, lots of media, the IBM Cloud, integrate some third parties, build a reporting suite. We make all of the content because in this world, of course, there are different things front and center on our clients minds, and not only that, but we had to film it all in remote locations in peoples homes, and make it all work, and so the team did an extraordinary job, and on the really positive side, you mentioned we had over 100,000 clients and business partners register, but it was still even more than three times any audience we've ever had come to our physical events at Think. So it was really extraordinary, and now of course, we're following up. We have a treasure trove of information about what clients are interested in, and what our business partners are interested in. We have a great opportunity to leverage the on demand content to continue the conversation. >> It's great. It's really interesting to time shift things instead of okay I'm going to dedicate however many days to do the event. Now, I love that mix of you can watch it live, you can watch it on demand, you can follow up. You know, how are you any trends that you're seeing as to where people are going, or how you're making sure that there are people to support and engage, not just say, you know, hey, here's a lot of content, you know, go watch our breakouts, go watch the cube stuff. >> Yeah, yeah. Well this is a huge thing, right? So both in terms of what we actually had to say, we really took our time to say, we interviewed clients, we look at search, you know, what's happening, what are our clients searching for, and PS data. So our big seven conversations, things like supply chain resiliency, things like engaging customers virtually, things like virtual work and return to work. We knew that those were really pertinent conversations, and now we have, you know, a couple things happening. One, all of our sellers are reaching out to people. Their clients, their business partners to talk about what they liked, what they didn't like, where they had to go deep in that conversation to progress, that conversation. For those that maybe registered and didn't attend, we're sending them on demand sessions based on what they said they were interested in, so they can consume at their own pace, and for many, we know that there are real opportunities that have emerged. So real business opportunity if they want IBM's help with, and there, of course, we're accelerating the conversations with those clients. >> Yeah, Michelle, your team actually sent over a few questions that some of the audience gave, and one of them talked about that there is, you know, no shortage of data out there. But what they put in the question is often there's not enough people that can curate or help you sort through. So you know, I think with the digital experience, right? How are you helping people curate the information? How are you making sure that people get from, you know, the data down that path towards you know, knowledge and you know, turn data into results eventually. >> Sure, well you have to ask good questions, you know? There's got to be great data standards, and governance, and you have to ask good questions, and that's really the simple thing. And you know, for us, we can ask some very simple questions. What are the signals we have on some clients that tend to think that they're interested in going deeper? You know, the clients where, you know, we had maybe 20, 30, 40 attendees. We had some clients attend over 1,000 sessions, and you know, really, maybe they're majoring on AI, or maybe they majored on cloud, and so how do we pair up our our sellers, our client execs with those clients to talk about taking that conversation to the next phase, right? To the next opportunity. Maybe doing demos, maybe doing a virtual garage, et cetera. Secondly, we had a lot of clients actually sign up for things like virtual garages, throughout Think there were these calls to action, and so we had many clients say, "Hey, I want to start "a virtual garage. I'll take advantage of that to our "free consulting." So for them, we know that we've got to go down a very specific path very quickly. And then there are other clients where the data said you know, there's a late, maybe a little bit of interest, but we have to nurture that they're not ready for the next step. So I think it always starts with just asking great questions. We're a very data driven organization in IBM marketing. We're really passionate about what we can learn. And, you know, beyond, of course, the data and things like Think we're passionate about things like Net Promoter Score. We get a million data points every year from our clients about how they're feeling about IBM. So all this enriches our ability to make sense of this world for our clients. >> Yeah, so Michelle, what one of the things I found really interesting is we've had online events for quite a long time now. You know, we've worked with IBM on that hybrid model, in physical and online events before, but there's a real thirst for you know, what are best practices now? What can you learn? So, you know, when your peers are reaching out for you, and saying, "Hey, Michelle, you did this." Other than not trying to do it all in from you know, from start to finish in six weeks, what other tips would you give, or lessons learned that you have? >> Well, I think, first of all, the platform makes a huge decision, right? We really have to have a flawless technical experience. And so we were very lucky to have Watson Media and hosting on the IBM Cloud. But we integrated some really good third party tooling before you know, analytics, real time analytics, and things like chat, et cetera. Secondly, I think you really have to think about how to make this engaging for the audience. It can't feel like a streaming event. And so for us that meant things like chat of course, then things like moderated live expert sessions mean things like going off platforms, Reddit and hosting sessions on Reddit, things like one on one client executive briefing room. So the second part is really about engaging the audience, and making sure it doesn't just feel like streaming third, shorter is better. You know, people's attention spans are small and no one can sit for five or six hours in front of a computer and consume. So we really cut down and tightened up our key messages. That I think was critical. I think the mix of live and on demand was really powerful and something to think about, but the last thing I would say is that how you progress and follow up on that interest, we all know how to do it in the event. You know, you sit down with your client, and you just watch today in sessions, you have a beer, you're probably watching some 80's band play, and you're talking about what you like, what you think what's exciting to you. What are your challenges? In a digital world that's harder for our client reps and our sellers, and so really thinking of the onset, and how do we make sure we create the space for those conversations after the event is critical. >> Great. Well, Michelle, so where do you and the IBM team take all those learnings? You know, engagement absolutely critical as you talked? What What should we expect to be seeing from IBM through the rest of 2020 when it comes to digital apps? >> I think we'll do things really differently from here on out. I mean, I think that, you know, of course we'll go back to live physical experiences at some point when it's safe for all of us. It is in certain parts of the world already, but we have a series of Think summits coming up all around the world, that idea that you can really engage bigger audiences, we can give them time to make the most of this. They don't have to spend money flying somewhere to really go deep. That's exciting to me. I think we've learned so much. So stay tuned for the Think regional summits happening all around the world, and and I hope we continue to innovate and bring the best of physical and digital into a new brand of experiences and events. >> Yeah, it's really fascinating stuff, Michelle, right? Not only do you get to reach a global audience, but you have the opportunity to personalize things a little bit more. >> Yeah. >> So, thank you so much for joining us. Definitely... >> It's always great to see you. >> Hope to see more and more on the summit's going forward. >> Terrific, always great to see you, and always thank you for your partnership. >> All right. Thank you for watching. I'm Stu Miniman, and as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (calming music)

(relaxing music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBEs coverage of IBM Think 2020, the digital experience, we're getting to talk to the IBM executive, the customers, and their partners Where they are around the globe, really happy to bring back the program, one of our people online. Michelle Peluso, she is the senior vice president of digital sales and chief marketing officer for all of IBM. Michelle, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you so much. It's great to have you as we get ready for Think 2020. >> boy, Michelle, you know, working for a big company like IBM, I can only imagine how much current global activities have impacting you, anybody If you turn on TV, you know that the ads that you're seeing are obviously have a very different manner than what we were seeing before this happened. And, you know, the focus of Think, of course, you know, really centers around what is happening, how you're helping IBM customers in part through there. So give us a little bit of insight as to, you know, how much the team has had the, you know, rapidly move towards the new reality? >> Well, look our company has been very focused on a couple of major priorities. First of all, our people keeping them safe and healthy and thinking about what are we learning from all this? How do we use new tools in different ways? How do we work in agile ways that will outlast even this current crisis? Secondly, of course, our clients we have pivoted hard to the essential offerings for recovery and transformation our clients need most right now. Things like business continuity, things like enabling Watson to engage all your customers virtually, things like supply chain resiliency, things like increased agility on the cloud, health and human Services. These are new offerings, new bundles that we know our clients need most right now, and so we've been pivoting hard. Third thing, as a marketer, of course, I've been very focused on how does the brand show up in this moment? How do we think about this cadre of events we used to do in person? How do we transform and think about generating demand in a virtual world, really improving the end to end digital experiences of everything we do? And of course, lastly, it's about how do we help create a cure? How do we help make sure that we speed this process along so we've done a lot from you know, taking super computing power and really applying it to the fight to find cures and find vaccines. We have donated things like Watson Assistant so that governments can get access to free chatbots to help their customers with knowledge and information about COVID-19. So, lots of things we're doing across all those friends. It's certainly been a time of really rapid transformation and the most important thing we can do is listen and pivot quickly. >> Yeah, really important points Michelle, listening to customers. I'm curious, you know, what are you hearing from customers? Obviously, you know, they have lots of challenges. And therefore, it probably changed a little bit how they think about who they partner with, you know, who they go to, to be a trusted, you know, partner in these times. So, you know, what feedback Are you getting from customers? How do they look at the relationship with IBM in your ecosystem, that might be a little different than before? >> Well, we're talking to customers more than ever, as you can imagine. And I think we have seen seven offerings, seven things that our clients really are learning going through this experience and need help with. And those range as I mentioned earlier, from supply chain continuity and resiliency to the new cybersecurity landscape. There's so many different and unique cyber risks right now. Virtual teaming, virtual work from home. Business continuity and resiliency, increased agility on the cloud things like, you know, making sure that we're supporting the health and human Services of our people. So those are some of the examples of what matters most to clients right now virtually engaging with customers with Watson. So those are the things that we have pivoted hard to make sure that we help our clients with the essential process of recovery and transformation. Because there isn't going where, there's no back to normal. We were very convinced that this is a rethink and Think 2020 is coming at the perfect time, as businesses start to slowly reopen their doors. You know, it's going to be a very important conversation with our clients on how we accelerate recovery and transformation. And transformation is important because we have learned a lot. And there are some things that we need to go back and improve. And there's some lessons we've learned that we can, you know, take with us into this sort of new world. So it's a challenging time for sure. But it's also one that is ripe with opportunities. And I've seen so much creativity and so much dedication. As we, you know, we had to remake Think in 60 days, a totally new platform, you know, new capabilities, new content, and at three x the volume. So the teams have done a remarkable job. And I'm excited for the conversation. >> What I'm curious, what you're hearing, is customers that are, you know, starting are in the midst of that journey, is the global pandemic, is it accelerating what they're doing? Is it stalling them? They're not definitely finding, >> you know, and I think it's really two things. One is, how does the team operate and you know, I've been very passionate for my entire career about agile as a discipline, small cross functional teams aligned on a mission, shared values, really have an incredible ability using the agile rituals to prioritize and to move quickly and to optimize that is more important than ever before. That is what is enabling kind of this more rapid, you know, cycles we're seeing and then I think are critical. >> What should we be taking as lessons and, you know, new practices that will continue in the future? >> Well, from a client perspective, I think we're going to see where digital has always sort of been, you know, mission critical. I think there's going to be incredible and continued, you know, rapid acceleration to a digital environment. And that's not just outside in what, you know, do we have a good mobile app? Do we have a good web experience that's inside out. How do we digitize the, you know, the call center so that customers can get virtual answers with chatbots? How do we digitize and use AI to improve HR, supply chain apart from fundamental, you know, manufacturing operational procedures. So that's one thing I think will be a permanent change. Secondly, I think we're going to see the same thing on the cloud, I think clients that had you know, three to five year journeys on their roadmaps of how they think about their cloud architecture in what workloads are we going to move to the public cloud? Almost all of them are saying that now has to be compressed. So I think we're going to see more rapid acceleration and adoption and journey to cloud. I think there's some new things that we'll see in terms of blockchain and cybersecurity and others that will also reimagine the landscape of our clients. On the people side, you know, we're adjusting, right? We're going to have to figure out this new way of being, this new way of normal, which might be a bit more hybrid than we're used to. Sometime in the office, sometime at home. I fundamentally believe more agile teams truly agile is a mission. So I think these are just some of the areas that we're going to see a reimagination of how work gets done, and what work gets done to make us more resilient, you know, stronger, and to emerge from what has been an immensely challenging period for so many, and personally so, for so many. And how do we take some lessons from this? So we emerged stronger >> All right. So Michelle, I was looking back at when we first had you on theCUBE. And when you were, you know, just coming on IBM as the CMO. And you know, you talk then about how you've always worked for digital companies, so here in 2020, the global pandemic, of course, you know, is on everyone's mind, but when people leave Think, how should they be thinking about IBM? if, you know, what is different, you know, and what is the same, over 100 year old company, one of the most trusted brands in the industry, but new leadership with Arvind, And how do you want people to think of IBM going forward? >> I think times of great challenge, are actually meant for the IBM brand. I think that our clients are looking more than ever for partners they can trust who can help them find the world's most innovative technology, with deep expertise and understanding of how work actually happens across these industries and with a blanket of Kind of security and likely trusted, responsible stewardship that matters more. So I hope our clients and our business partners because we have an immensely rich agenda for our business partners, I hope they emerge knowing that IBM is their essential partner for recovery and for transformation. And there is simply nothing we won't do to help them make their business stronger and in so doing to build a stronger more resilient world. >> Well, Michelle Peluso congratulations and the team on everything to make Think 2020 Digital come and really appreciate being able to participate with you. >> Thanks for I really appreciate it. >> Stay tuned for lots more coverage from the cube. I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering RSA Conference 2020 San Francisco. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey welcome back, get ready, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're at RSA 2020, here at Moscone, it's a really pretty day outside in San Francisco, unfortunately we're at the basement of Moscone, but that's 'cause this is the biggest thing going in security, it's probably 15,000 people, we haven't got the official number yet, but this is the place to be and security is a really really really big deal, and we're excited to have our next guest, I haven't seen her for a little while, since data privacy day. I tried to get Scott McNealy to join us, he unfortunately was predisposed and couldn't join us. Michelle Finneran Dennedy, in her new job, the CEO of DrumWave. Michelle, great to see you. >> Great to see you too, I'm sorry I missed you on privacy day. >> I know, so DrumWave, tell us all about DrumWave, last we saw you this is a new adventure since we last spoke. >> It's a new adventure, so this is my first early stage company, we're still seeking series A, we're a young company, but our mantra is we are the data value company. So they have had this very robust analytics engine that goes into the heart of data, and can track it and map it and make it beautiful, and along came McNealy, who actually sits on our board. And they said we need someone, it's all happening. So they asked Scott McNealy, who is the craziest person in privacy and data that you know and he said "Oh my God, get the Dennedy woman." So, they got the Dennedy woman and that's what I do now, so I've taken this analytics value engine, I'm pointing it to the board as I've always said, Grace Hopper said, data value and data risk has to be on the corporate balance sheet, and so that's what we're building is a data balance sheet for everyone to use, to actually value data. >> So to actually put a value on the data, so this is a really interesting topic, because people talk about the value of data, we see the value of data wrapped up, not directly, but indirectly in companies like Facebook and Google and those types of companies who clearly are leveraging data in a very different way, but it is not a line item on a balance sheet, they don't teach you that at business school next to capital assets and, right, so how are you attacking the problem, 'cause that's a huge, arguably will be the biggest asset anyone will have on their balance sheet at some point in time. >> Absolutely, and so I go back to basic principles, the same as I did when I started privacy engineering. I look and I say "Okay, if we believe the data's an asset," and I think that at least verbally, we all say the words "Yes, data is an asset," instead of some sort of exhaust, then you have to look back and say "What's an asset?" Well an asset, under the accounting rules, is anything tangible or intangible that is likely to cause economic benefit. So you break that down, what is the thing, well you got to map that thing. So where is your data? Well data tells you where it is. Instead of bringing in clip boards and saying "Hey, Jeff, my man, do you process PII?" We don't do that, we go to your system, and when you go on DrumWave, you're automatically receiving an ontology that says what is this likely to be, using some machine learning, and then every single column proclaims itself. And so we have a data provenance for every column, so you put that into an analytics engine, and suddenly you can start asking human questions of real data. >> And do you ask the questions to assess the value of the data, or is the ultimate valuation of that data in the categorization and the ontology, and knowing that I have this this this and this, or I mean we know what the real value is, the soft value is what you can do with it, but when you do the analytics on it, are you trying to get to unlock what the potential, underlying analytic value is of that data that you have in your possession? >> Yeah, so the short answer is both, and the longer answer is, so my cofounder, Andre Vellozo, believes, and I believe too, that every conversation is a transaction. So just like you look at transactions within the banking context, and you say, you have to know that it's there, creating a data ontology. You have to know what the context is, so when you upload your data, you receive a data provenance, now you can actually look at, as the data controller, you open what we call your wallet, which is your portal into our analytics engine, and you can see across the various data wranglers, so each business unit has put their data on, because the data's not leaving your place, it's either big data, small data, I don't really care data. Everything comes in through every business unit, loads up their data set, and we look across it and we say "What kind of data is there?" So there's quantitative data saying, if you took off the first 10 lines of this column in marketing, now you have a lump of data that's pure analytics. You just share those credentials and combine that dataset, you know you have a clean set of data that you can even sell, or you can create an analytic, because you don't have any PII. For most data sets, you look at relative value, so for example, one of the discussions I had with a customer today, we know when we fail in privacy, we have a privacy breach, and we pay our lawyers, and so on. Do you know what a privacy success is? >> Hopefully it's like an offensive lineman, you don't hear their name the whole game right, 'cause they don't get a holding call. >> Until they put the ball in the hole. So who's putting the ball in the hole, sales is a privacy success. You've had a conversation with someone who was the right someone in context to sign on the bottom line. You have shared information in a proportionate way. If you have the wrong data, your sale cycle is slower. So we can show, are you efficiently sharing data, how does that correlate with the results of your business unit? Marketing is another privacy success. There's always that old adage that we know that 50% of marketing is a waste, but we don't know which 50%. Well now we can look at it and say "All right," marketing can be looked at as people being prepared to buy your product, or prepared to think in a new, persuasive way. So who's clicking on that stuff, that used to be the metric, now you should tie that back to, how much are you storing for how long related to who's clicking, and tying it to other metrics. So the minute you put data into an analytics engine, it's not me that's going to tell you how you're going to do your data balance sheet, you're going to tell me how dependent you are on digital transactions versus tangible, building things, selling things, moving things, but everyone is a digital business now, and so we can put the intelligence on top of that so you, the expert in value, can look at that value and make your own conclusions. >> And really, what you're talking about then is tying it to my known processes, so you're almost kind of parsing out the role of the data in doing what I'm trying to do with my everyday business. So that's very different than looking at, say, something like, say a Facebook or an Amazon or a Google that are using the data not necessarily, I mean they are supporting the regular processes, but they're getting the valuation bump because of the potential. >> By selling it. >> Or selling it, or doing new businesses based on the data, not just the data in support of the current business. So is that part of your program as well, do you think? >> Absolutely, so we could do the same kind of ontology and value assessment for an Apple, Apple assesses value by keeping it close, and it's not like they're not exploiting data value, it's just that they're having everyone look into the closed garden, and that's very valuable. Facebook started that way with Facebook Circles way back when, and then they decided when they wanted to grow, they actually would start to share. And then it had some interesting consequences along the line. So you can actually look at both of those models as data valuation models. How much is it worth for an advertiser to get the insights about your customers, whether or not they're anonymized or not, and in certain contexts, so healthcare, you want it to be hyper-identifiable, you want it to be exactly that person. So that valuation is higher, with a higher correlation of every time that PII is associated with a treatment, to that specific person with the right name, and the same Jr. or Sr. or Mrs. or Dr., all of that correlated into one, now your value has gone up, whether you're selling that data or what you're selling is services into that data, which is that customer's needs and wants. >> And in doing this with customers, what's been the biggest surprise in terms of a value, a piece of value in the data that maybe just wasn't recognized, or kind of below the covers, or never really had the direct correlation or association that it should've had? >> Yeah, so I don't know if I'm going to directly answer it or I'm going to sidewind it, but I think my biggest surprise wasn't a surprise to me, it was a surprise to my customers. The customers thought we were going to assess their data so they could start selling it, or they could buy other data sources, combine it, enrich it, and then either sell it or get these new insights. >> Jeff: That's what they brought you in for. >> Yeah, I know, cute, right? Yeah, so I'm like "Okay." The aha moment, of course, is that first of all, the "Oh my God" moment in data rarely happens, sometimes in big research cases, you'll get an instance of some biometric that doesn't behave organically, but we're talking about human behavior here, so the "Aha, we should be selling phone data "to people with phones" should not be an aha, that's just bad marketing. So instead, the aha for me has been A, how eager and desperate people are for actually looking at this, I really thought this was going to be a much more steep hill to climb to say "Hey, data's an asset," I've been saying this for over 20 years now, and people are kind of like "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Now for the first time, I'm seeing people really want to get on board and look comprehensively, so I thought we'd be doing little skinny pilots, oh no, everyone wants to get all their data on board so they can start playing around with it. So that's been really a wake-up call for a privacy gal. >> Right, well it's kind of interesting, 'cause you're kind of at the tail end of the hype cycle on big data, with Hadoop, and all that that represented, it went up and down and nobody had-- >> Michelle: Well we thought more was more. >> We thought more was more, but we didn't have the skills to manage it, and there was a lot of issues. And so now you never hear about big data per say, but data's pervasive everywhere, data management is pervasive everywhere, and again, we see the crazy valuations based on database companies, that are clearly getting that. >> And data privacy companies, I mean look at the market in DC land, and any DCs that are looking at this, talk to mama, I know what to do. But we're seeing one feature companies blowing up in the marketplace right now, people really want to know how to handle the risk side as well as the value side. Am I doing the right thing, that's my number one thing that not CPOs are, because they all know how crazy it is out there, but it's chief financial officers are my number one customer. They want to know that they're doing the right thing, both in terms of investment, but also in terms of morality and ethics, am I doing the right thing, am I growing the right kind of business, and how much of my big data is paying me back, or going back to accountancy rules, the definition of a liability is an asset that is uncurated. So I can have a pencil factory, 'cause I sell pencils, and that's great, that's where I house my pencils, I go and I get, but if something happened and somehow the route driver disappeared, and that general manager went away, now I own a pencil factory that has holes in the roof, that has rotting merchandise, that kids can get into, and maybe the ceiling falls, there's a fire, all that is, if I'm not utilizing that asset, is a liability, and we're seeing real money coming out of the European Union, there was a hotel case where the data that they were hoarding wasn't wrong, it was about real people who had stayed at their hotels, it just was in the 90s. And so they were fined 14.5 million Euros for keeping stale data, an asset had turned into a liability, and that's why you're constantly balancing, is it value, is it risk, am I taking so much risk that I'm not compensating with value and vice versa, and I think that's the new aha moment of really looking at your data valuation. >> Yeah, and I think that was part of the big data thing too, where people finally realized it's not a liability, thinking about "I got to buy servers to store it, "and I got to buy storage, and I got to do all this stuff," and they'd just let it fall on the floor. It's not free, but it does have an asset value if you know what to do with it. So let's shift gears about privacy specifically, because obviously you are the queen of privacy. >> I like that, that's my new title. >> GDPR went down, and now we've got the California version of GDPR, love to get your update, did you happen to be here earlier for the keynotes, and there was a conversation on stage about the right to be forgotten. >> Jennifer: Oh dear god, now, tell me. >> And is it even possible, and a very esteemed group of panelists up there just talking about very simple instances where, I search on something that you did, and now I want to be forgotten. >> Did no one watch Back to the Future? Did we not watch that show? Back to the Future where all their limbs start disappearing? >> Yes, yes, it's hard to implement some of these things. >> This has been my exhaustion with the right to be forgotten since the beginning. Humanity has never desired a right to be forgotten. Now people could go from one village to the next and redo themselves, but not without the knowledge that they gained, and being who they were in the last village. >> Jeff: Speaking to people along the way. >> Right, you become a different entity along the way. So, the problem always was really, differential publicity. So, some dude doesn't pay back his debtors, he's called a bad guy, and suddenly, any time you Google him, or Bing him, Bing's still there, right? >> Jeff: I believe so. >> Okay, so you could Bing someone, I guess, and then that would be the first search term, that was the harm, was saying that your past shouldn't always come back to haunt you. And so what we try to do is use this big, soupy term that doesn't exist in philosophy, in art, the Chimea Roos had a great right to be forgotten plan. See how that went down? >> That was not very pleasant. >> No, it was not pleasant, because what happens is, you take out knowledge when you try to look backwards and say "Well, we're going to keep this piece and that," we are what we are, I'm a red hot mess, but I'm a combination of my red hot messes, and some of the things I've learned are based on that. So there's a philosophical debate, but then there's also the pragmatic one of how do you fix it, who fixes it, and who gets to decide whose right it is to be forgotten? >> And what is the goal, that's probably the most important thing, what is the goal that we're trying to achieve, what is the bad thing that we're trying to avoid, versus coming up with some grandiose idea that probably is not possible, much less practical. >> There's a suit against the Catholic Church right now, I don't know if you heard this, and they're not actually in Europe, they live in Vatican City, but there's a suit against, about the right to be forgotten, if I decide I'm no longer Catholic, I'm not doing it, Mom, I'm hearing you, then I should be able to go to the church and erase my baptismal records and all the rest. >> Jeff: Oh, I hadn't heard that one. >> I find it, first of all, as someone who is culturally Catholic, I don't know if I can be as saintly as I once was, as a young child. What happens if my husband decides to not be Catholic anymore? What happens if I'm not married anymore, but now my marriage certificate is gone from the Catholic Church? Are my children bastards now? >> Michelle's going deep. >> What the hell? Literally, what the hell? So I think it's the unintended consequence without, this goes back to our formula, is the data value of deletion proportionate to the data risk, and I would say the right to be forgotten is like this. Now having an indexability or an erasability of a one-time thing, or, I'll give you another corner case, I've done a little bit of thinking, so you probably shouldn't have asked me about this question, but, in the US, when there's a domestic abuse allegation, or someone calls 911, the police officers have to stay safe, and so typically they just take everybody down to the station, men and women. Guess who are most often the aggressors? Usually the dudes. But guess who also gets a mugshot and fingerprints taken? The victim of the domestic abuse. That is technically a public record, there's never been a trial, that person may or may not ever be charged for any offense at all, she just was there, in her own home, having the crap beat out of her. Now she turns her life around, she leaves her abusers, and it can happen to men too, but I'm being biased. And then you do a Google search, and the first thing you find is a mugshot of suspected violence. Are you going to hire that person? Probably not. >> Well, begs a whole discussion, this is the generation where everything's been documented all along the way, so whether they choose or not choose or want or don't want, and how much of it's based on surveillance cameras that you didn't even know. I thought you were going to say, and then you ask Alexa, "Can you please give me the recording "of what really went down?" Which has also been done, it has happened, it has happened, actually, which then you say "Hm, well, is having the data worth the privacy risk "to actually stop the perp from continuing the abuse?" >> Exactly, and one of my age-old mantras, there's very few things that rhyme, but this one does, but if you can't protect, do not collect. So if you're collecting all these recordings in the domestic, think about how you're going to protect. >> There's other people that should've hired you on that one. We won't go there. >> So much stuff to do. >> All right Michelle, but unfortunately we have to leave it there, but thank you for stopping by, I know it's kind of not a happy ending. But good things with DrumWave, so congratulations, we continue to watch the story evolve, and I'm sure it'll be nothing but phenomenal success. >> It's going to be a good time. >> All right, thanks a lot Michelle. She's Michelle, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at RSA 2020 in San Francisco, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (techno music)

>>Live from Washington, D C it's the cube covering Boomi world 19 how to buy bullying. >>Hey, welcome back to the cube. Lisa Martin with John furrier covering day one of Dell Boomi world 2019 we're in D C this year. We're not in Vegas. Pretty cool. Big news with fed ramp and Boomi. John and I are very pleased to walk them slalom gas, a couple of them saw them as both a partner and a customer. Please welcome Michelle ye practice area lead and founder slalom innovation for good. Michelle, great to have you. Thank you so much. Excited to be here and we have Shane Fisher solution principle, business applications and integration. Shane, welcome. >>Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate being here. >>So the Boomi World yesterday I know kicked off for partners with partner summit today kicking off for customers and everybody else with a lot of energy, a lot of excitement. But one of the things that Boomi talks Slalom about that solemn is involved in both is their 9,000 plus customers, which obviously you guys have a big hand in and 580 partners of which you guys are winning a number of partner awards over the last few years. She didn't. We're going to start with you and then we're going to get to the innovation for good. Michelle with you, tell us about some, you guys have some really outstanding use cases of where you're helping organizations implement Boomi. Tell us about Illumina, about the business overall and then we'll go into some of those use cases. >>Absolutely. So we are part of a group within slalom that really kind of focuses on, uh, business process, automation integration and things like that. And so we've had just the unique privilege of being able to help a number of life sciences customers in particular. Um, couple of that I'm super excited about are SightLife and Juno therapeutics. Um, you know, both, obviously with great missions, um, you know, Juno therapeutics, they're there, their mission and objective is to cure all, all kinds of lymphomas. Um, and you know, obviously that, that's a great mission, you know, that that just really makes you excited to go to work every day, you know, to, to be able to support that. >>So talk to us about, so I believe it's an immunotherapy company. Yes. Talk to us about what was their it environment like, as you know, on the one on there, they're processing all this data, patient data, wanting to probably get patients into clinical trials to evaluate new potential therapeutics, talk to us about their it environment. I imagine disparate systems, things not connected, give us that before picture and why slalom went in with Boomi. >>Absolutely. Um, so as you can imagine with any sort of startup, you know, even in like the life sciences space, um, you know, you start fairly immature. Um, you know, you don't have a lot of systems. There's a lot of manual processes. Um, you know, a lot of paperwork based processes. Um, you know, tracking patients, you know, manually or using bespoke, uh, you know, like to SQL databases, things like that. Right. Um, it's, it's kind of, you know, it's that necessary sort of bootstrapping that, that a lot of, you know, very early companies do. But then you get, you know, you reach a certain level where it's like, okay, we've got to grow up a little bit. And so what kind of, what started our journey, which, you know, is that they selected Salesforce as kind of that, that center to sort of collect patient data and be sort of that, um, you know, the first touch point, you know, when we first kind of, uh, you know, interact with the patient, um, and are able to kind of track them through their life cycle and give them the best service possible. Um, and obviously once you have Salesforce embedded into your, your infrastructure, now I need to integrate that. Right. And so that was kind of where slalom, uh, became involved, um, and went through a product selection. Um, Boomi came out, the clear winner, um, you know, not surprisingly. Um, and yeah, and we, we stood that up for them, you know, and, and started sort of connecting, you know, Salesforce to some of their other, you know, systems and automated. >>What were some of the reasons why Boomi was the winner? Was there certain categories you had focused on? Was it something specific around what they had? What was the use case that made them stand out? >>So I think speed of delivery and just ease of use are kind of the, the two main things that really stood out. Um, you know, particularly in this, in the Salesforce realm. I mean, Boomi just integrates so naturally and so easily with Salesforce. I mean it's, it's as easy as it could be, right? And so that was just a natural use case. Um, and then just, it's the speed of delivery, you know, being able to attack, crank through these integrations. Um, we heard a gentleman during the keynote talk about man integrations used to take like four months to deliver. And you think about it now, it's like, that is silly, but it's true. That's, that's, that's the world we came from. And so to have a platform that just makes it so much easier, so much snappier, particularly in a, in a, in a space where it's so important, like what the end goal is. So you get that patient care and you know, and get them the best medicine and stuff like that. >>Yeah. Well, and it's such a story that everybody on earth has been touched by. So Michelle, talk to us about Juno therapeutics as a great example of what you're doing with, with, um, the program tech for good innovation for good, but also give us a little bit of your interesting backstory on you had a personal connection to this. Tell us about that. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm, the solemn innovation for good team is only about three months old. So it's a pretty new capability. And what it really stems from is we're an extremely purpose-driven company. I think that's also one reason why we partner so well with Boomi, um, is because we share a lot of that passion together and we're trying to make the world a better place. Um, so, you know, one thing that we try to do is say, Hey, major not for profit. >>Whoever you are, we understand that you have the same challenges all of our other commercial clients do. So do you know, as a great example of I have information everywhere, how do I get this under control and get value out of that? And that's why this partnership makes so much sense. Um, and so we bring to the not-for-profits our expertise in technology, but then also our connections and partners like Boomi to the table to say, all right, what could we be doing to accelerate this person's mission or this organization's mission and do that, you know, using our strengths. Um, and so another client of ours for example, is American cancer society and very well tied to, um, do you know, therapeutics because actually immunotherapy is a huge opportunity, um, for newer treatments that are less invasive and damaging than chemotherapy. Um, and so my own personal story is of course, uh, I have a history of breast cancer in my own family. Um, and again, like you said, we've all been impacted by cancer. So helping clients like this through our technology is exactly what we should be doing. >>You know, one of the things that's interesting is there's a Renaissance of tech for good startups and yeah, we started reporting on this couple of years ago when we were in DC with Amazon. We saw that with cloud computing and the life cycle changes of delivery and integration that you can get off the ground with very little capital and you could also ran, you don't have to spend all your grant money. So there's a real Renaissance in entrepreneurial thinking in this area, which is now kind of spawning social investing, social impact. But actually businesses are getting to profitability. So what's, this kind of speaks to the Boomi ethos. I want to get your opinion on this. You guys are close to all this. Is that true? Do you believe that? What do you see? What's your thoughts on this wave of tech for good? I won't say philanthropy because people are building real apps and there's real value being created. Your thoughts. >>Yeah. So I can kick us off. Um, yeah. I think exactly as Shane was saying, our abilities. So if we can reduce time for integration, let's say to two months, three months, I don't know, for something simple as a POC, then, um, the speed at which we're changing the landscape is incredible. Um, and as an example, so we did some work with breast cancer images and using AI machine learning in the cloud, um, and we were actually able to reduce the time it takes to do that analysis from three years into a couple of hours in the span of three months. Wow. So when I think about like, okay, like it's not like this massive, okay, first we're going to do this three year integration plan, then when we're done with a three year integration plan, Oh, on the way now we can unlock AI and machine learning. It makes so much sense. Right? Exactly. Oh yeah. You know, all the money that the not for profits have. Right. So, um, you know, I, when I look at them like it makes complete sense that we should be capitalizing on this and transform that whole industry. >>Shane Renaissance, your thoughts and you what did you, what's your opinion? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I was just talking to a gentleman last night from a retail company who again, you know, a very similar story has launched his own private foundation and is using technology to do it, um, and an impact. Absolutely. Um, and there's so, there's so many companies out there that are doing this, um, you know, it's where they call it a responsible capitalism, you know, something like that. Um, and, and yeah, I think the technology is sort of enabling, uh, you know, more of that sort of behavior. If you think of it from a, you know, a classic pace layering standpoint, right? It's the um, you know, where do you want to spend your investment dollars? You want to spend that on infrastructure or do you want to spend that on the things that matter? And I think, you know, making the infrastructure and making these applications so much easier to work with is just unlocking all the rest of the, you know, the potential for, for, you know, just having a unimpactful >>the impact impact is a commercial impact for profit. People do that. That's what businesses do. Yeah. The workloads are workloads. The impact is impact depending upon what you're trying to do. This is the innovation that we're seeing. >>Yeah, absolutely. I'm one of the things too that Chris McNabb talked about this morning that's even more critical when we're talking about immunotherapy, American cancer society and organizations like that is shortening that time to value. John and I were talking about that in our open and when you're, we're talking about literally life and death situations and the element within an organization, the technology stuff where you can save even a couple of clicks for a workflow. There's this snowball effect there because as anybody knows, your family knows we've all been touched by cancer. There isn't time. You're racing against a clock. So that time to value in an example like this really speaks volumes about those outcomes that John was talking about. And I, I mean, I'd love to get your thoughts, Shane on, I feel like as the tools are evolving and becoming even easier and easier to use and we can democratize those insights faster and enable more and more types of people to leverage these technologies. So I don't know if you're seeing the same. Yeah, >>no, absolutely. And that, that sort of, that time to value is kind of, I was thinking about the SightLife use case as you were kind of talking about that, right. And this is literally where, you know, SightLife's mission is about matching, um, I donors to people that need them, right? Um, and you know, tragically, you know, people that lose their lives, but being able to harvest that, you know, those valuable, you know, eyes so that somebody can see every second counts in that, in that overall life cycle. And so if you can reduce that, which is what SightLife did, reduce that life cycle from like a 24 hour cycle down to hours. Um, you know, it's, it's impactful. I mean that's just has huge impact. >>And you're also helping, they have, SightLife has a goal. I was looking at my notes here of ending corneal blindness by 2040. So sh any element that they can possibly shorten in that entire is essential for them to achieve that goal. And I also was reading that the success rate of corneal transplants is very high. Yet the majority of those folks that need it are in areas that are low income, not as accessible. How can Slalom help site SightLife be able to achieve that goal of ending corneal blindness in that time? Like how is Boomi going to be a facilitator of that shortened time to value? >>Yeah, I mean I, from my standpoint, Michelle feel free to, to jump in as well, but um, it's a, it's about kind of exactly what you said, right? It's like finding those opportunities to reduce time. Um, and the other thing particularly in life sciences, right, is, you know, quality is a big, big deal. Um, and making sure you're matching, you know, the right patient to the, you know, blood types matching blood to blood. In the, in the Juno use case we call that the vein to vein process where they actually take the patient's blood ship into a manufacturing site, use their own blood and their, their, you know, their own immune system basically to manufacture a drug and then re-inject that into the patient. Imagine if you messed that up somehow. Um, you know, it's kind of a big deal. So >>we help give them that, that view. Cause we talk about John and I at every cube event that the cube covers, which is a lot data is always one of the number one topics of conversation. And we think, well it's the new blood, it's the new oil. It is. If an organization actually has access and visibility to it. And if the applications like Salesforce, ERP, blood bank applications for example, have the ability to leverage a single source of that data that's governed, that they can trust. How does Boomi facilitate that vein to vein process? For example, I'm just wondering, is there, from a master data hub perspective, is that one of the elements in our that's able to help those on the other end, be sure that the data that they're matching is indeed correct? >>Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great question. Um, so right now, um, we haven't explored MDH yet at Juno. Um, but I think that's one of those things that may be coming at some point in the future. Um, we call it a chain of identity, right? Is ensuring that the blood that you took from the patient is the same blood that comes back essentially like tracking that through the entire life cycle. Um, and right now, you know, we're using the Boomi platform using Boomi integration to accomplish that. Um, you know, we logged sort of, you know, patient identifying information all the way through the chain, but we also redacted when we log because obviously there's GDPR, there's all these other, you know, regulations around that. Um, so there's a, again, in life sciences is a very interesting balance. You have to walk, you know there's regulations you have to follow and things like >>I'd love to get one last question for the people watching that aren't maybe changing careers or doing something entrepreneurial in social impact, your advice to them because people can see value, they see how path and get their funding requirements are lower. A lot more people saying, Hey, I'm not just doing good. I'm actually can make as a living a lifestyle choice or whatever reason, business reason. What's your guys' advice to folks thinking about making the change? Best practices, lessons learned, scar tissue, anything that you'd share for months or years to four months from four hours hardcore. How do you get this up and running quick? What's the best practice element? Michelle started on this one? >>No, I, I do have some advice. You know, I don't think it's necessarily an easy path to do this. However, I think it's much more feasible now to do it, especially with the speed of technology. And what I would say is, you know, it doesn't have to be a black and white, you know, situation where it's, I either do social good or a drive revenue. And I think at slalom anyway, and with many of these other companies, we have found operating models that support both. And I think if you maintain your passion but also your business mind and the technology sense and combine those, I, I think that's the way to go. >>Shane technical thoughts standing up stuff's cloud Boomi. Yeah. >>I mean it, it's, it's, it's a very wide and deep world out there. Um, but the thing that's so awesome, um, you know, I, I, I tell, um, you know, my directs this all the time, um, the opportunity to teach yourself things is like, at no other time, you know, in our world, uh, it, all the information is there. Um, yeah. Starting with Boomi itself, I mean, buoy verse, you know, you can go teach yourself whatever you need to know. Um, so I, I'd say, you know, follow your passions and, and you know, be a, be a fearless learner because the opportunities are there. Great insight. >>I like that. Be a fearless learner. Well, Shane, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing what you guys are doing at slalom and we look forward to hearing continued successes. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Thank you for Shane and Michelle and John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube from Boomi world 2019 thanks for watching.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE! Covering Cisco Live! Europe brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCube's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live! Europe 2019. We're at day three of three days of coverage I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante Our next two guests we're going to talk about privacy data Michelle Dennnedy, VP and Chief Privacy officer at Cisco and Robert Waitman who is the Director of Security and Trust. Welcome back, we had them last year and everything we talked about kinda's happening on steroids here this year >> Yep. >> Welcome back >> Thank you glad to be here >> Thanks for having us >> So security, privacy all go hand in hand. A lot going on. You're seeing more breaches you're seeing more privacy challenges Certainly GDPR's going to the next level. People are, quote, complying here's a gig of data go figure it out. So there's a lot happening, give us the update. >> Well, as we suggested last year it was privacypalooza all year long running up to the enforcement deadline of May 25, 2018. There were sort of two kinds of companies. There's one that ran up to that deadline and said woohoo we're ready to drive this baby forward! And then there's a whole nother set of people who are still sort of oh my gosh. And then there's a third category of people who still don't understand. I had someone come up to me several weeks ago and say what do I do? When is this GDPR going to be a law? I thought oh honey you need a hug >> Two years ago, you need some help. >> And some companies in the US, at least were turning off their websites. Some media companies were in the news for actually shutting down their site and not making it available because they weren't ready. So a lot of people were caught off guard, some were prepared but still, you said people would be compliant, kind of and they did that but still more work to do. >> Lots more work to do and as we said when the law was first promulgated two and a half years ago GDPR and the deadline A, It's just one region but as you'll hear as we talk about our study it's impacting the globe but it's also not the end of anything it's the beginning of the information economy at long last. So, I think we all have a lot to do even if you feel rather confident of your base-level compliance now it's time to step up your game and keep on top of it. >> Before we get into some of the details of the new finding you guys have I want you to take a minute to explain how your role is now centered in the middle of Cisco because if you look at the keynotes data's in the center of a lot of things in this intent based network on one side and you've got cloud and edge on the other. Data is the new ingredient that's feeding applications and certainly collective intelligence for security. So the role of data is critical. This is a big part of the Cisco tech plan nevermind policy and or privacy and these other things you're in the middle of it. Explain your role within Cisco and how that shapes you. >> How we sort of fit in. Well it's such a good question and actually if you watch our story through theCUBE we announced, actually on data privacy day several years ago that data is the new currency and this is exactly what we're talking about the only way that you can operationalize your data currency is to really think about it throughout the platform. You're not just pleasing a regulator you're not just pleasing your shareholders you're not just pleasing your employee base. So, as such, the way we organize our group is my role sits under the COO's office our Chief Operations Office under the office of John Stewart who is our Chief Trust officer. So security, trust, advanced research all live together in operations. We have sister organizations in places like public policy, legal, marketing, the sales groups the people who are actually operationalizing come together for a group. My role really is to provide two types of strategy. One, rolling out privacy engineering and getting across inside and outside of the company as quickly as possible. It's something new. As soon as we have set processes I put them into my sister organization and they send them out as routine and hopefully automated things. The other side is the work Robert and I do together is looking at data valuation models. Working about the economics of data where does it drive up revenue and business and speed time to closure and how do we use data to not just be compliant in the privacy risk but really control our overall risk and the quality of our information overall. It's a mouth full >> So that's interesting and Robert, that leads me to a question when we've seen these unfunded mandates before we saw it with Y2K, the Enron backlash certainly the United States the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. And the folks in the corner office would say oh, here we go again. Is there any way to get more value beyond just reducing risk and complying and have you seen companies be able to take data and value and apply it based on the compliance and governance and privacy policies? >> Dave that's a great question. It's sort of the thought that we had and the hypothesis was that this was going to be more valuable than just for the compliance reasons and one of the big findings of the study that we just released this week was that in fact those investments you know we're saying that good privacy is very good for business. It was painful, some firms stuck their head in the sand and said I don't want to even do this but still, going through the GDPR preparation process or for any of the privacy regulations has taken people to get their data house in order and it's important to communicate. We wanted to find out what benefits were coming from those organizations that had made those investments and that's really what came out in our study this week for international data privacy day we got into that quite a bit. >> What is this study? can you give us some details on it? >> It's the Data Privacy Benchmark study we published this week for international data privacy day. It's sort of an opportunity to focus on data privacy issues both for consumers and for businesses sort of the one day a year kind of like mother's day that you should always think of your mom but mother's day's a good day so you should always think of privacy when you're making decisions about your data but it's a chance to raise awareness. So we published our study this year and it was based on over thirty-two hundred responses from companies around the world from 18 countries all sorts of sizes of companies and the big findings were in fact around that. Privacy has become a serious and a boardroom level issue that the awareness has really skyrocketed for companies who are saying before I do business with you I want to know how you're using my data. What we saw this year is that seven out of eight companies are actually seeing some sales delay from their customers asking those kinds of questions. But those that have made the investment getting ready for GDPR or being more mature on privacy are seeing shorter delays. If you haven't gotten ready you're seeing 60% longer delays. And even more interestingly for us too is when you have data breaches and a lot of companies have them as we've talked about those breaches are not nearly as impactful. The organizations that aren't ready for GDPR are seeing three times as many records impacted by the breach. They're seeing system downtime that's 50% longer and so the cost of the whole thing is much more. So, kind of the question of is this still something good to do? Not only because you have to do it when you want to avoid 4% penalties from GDPR and everything else but it's something that's so important for my business that drives value. >> So the upshot there is that you do the compliance. Okay, check the box, we don't want to get fined So you're taking your medicine basically. Turns into an upside with the data you're seeing from your board. Sales benefit and then just preparedness readiness for breaches. >> Right, I mean it's a nice-- >> Is that right? >> That's exactly right John you've got it right. Then you've got your data house in order I mean there's a logic to this. So then if you figured out where your data is how to protect it, who has access to it you're able to deal with these questions. When customers ask you questions about that you're ready to answer it. And when something bad goes wrong let's say there is a breach you've already done the right things to control your data. You've got rid of the data you don't need anymore. I mean 50% of your data isn't used for anything and of course we suggest that people get rid of that that makes it less available when and if a breach occurs. >> So I got to ask you a question on the data valuation because a lot of the data geeks and data nerds like myself saw this coming. We saw data, mostly on the tech side if you invested in data it was going to feed applications and I think I wrote a blog post in 2007 data's going to be part of the development kits or development environment you're seeing that now here. Data's now part of application development it's part of network intelligence for security. Okay, so yes, check, that's happening. At the CFO level, can you value the data so it's a balance sheet item? Can you say we're investing in this? So you start to see movement you almost project, maybe, in a few years, or now how do you guys see the valuation? Is it going to be another kind of financial metric? >> Well John, it's a great point. Seeing where we're developing around this. So I think we're still in somewhat early days of that issue. I think the organizations that are thinking about data as an asset and monetizing its value are certainly ahead of this we're trying to do that ourselves. We probed on that a little bit in the survey just to get a sense of where organizations are and only about a third of organizations are doing those data mature things. Do they have a complete data map of where their stuff is? Do they have a Chief Data Officer? Are they starting to monetize in appropriate ways, their data? So, there's a long way to go before organizations are really getting the value out of that data. >> But the signals are showing that there's value in the data. Obviously the number of sales there's some upside to compliance not just doin it to check the box there's actually business benefits. So how are you guys thinking about this cause you guys are early adopters or leaders in this how are you thinking about the data measurement of it? Can you share your insights on that? >> Yeah, so you know, data on the balance sheet Grace Hopper 1965, right? data will one day be on the corporate balance sheet because it's in most cases more valuable than the hardware that processes. This is the woman who's making software and hardware work for us, in 1965! Here we are in 2019. It's coming on the balance sheet. She was right then, I believe in it now. What we're doing is, even starting this is a study of correlation rather than causation. So now we have at least the artifacts to say to our legal teams go back and look at when you have one of our new improved streamline privacy sheets and you're telling in a more transparent fashion a deal. Mark the time that you're getting the question. Mark the time that you're finishing. Let's really be much more stilletto-like measuring time to close and efficiency. Then we're adding that capability across our businesses. >> Well one use case we heard on theCUBE this week was around privacy and security in the network versus on top of the network and one point that was referenced was when a salesperson leaves they take the contacts with them. So that's an asset and people get sued over it. So this again, this is a business policy thing. so business policy sounds like... >> Well in a lot of the solutions that exist in the marketplace or have existed I've sat on three encrypted email companies before encrypted email was something the market desired. I've sat on two advisory boards of-- a hope that you could sell your own data to the marketers. Every time someone gets an impression you get a micro cent or a bitcoin. We haven't really got that because we're looking on the periphery. What we're really trying to do is let's look at what the actual business flow and processes are in general and say things like can we put a metric on having less records higher impact, and higher quality. The old data quality in the CDO is rising up again get that higher quality now correlate it with speed to innovation speed to close, launch times the things that make your business run anyway. Now correlate it and eventually find causal connections to data. That's how we're going to get that data on the balance sheet. >> You know, that's a great point the data quality issue used to be kind of a back office records management function and now it's coming to the fore and I just make an observation if you look at what were before Facebook fake news what were the top five companies in the United States in terms of market value Amazon, Google, Facebook was up there, Microsoft, Apple. They're all data companies and so the market has valued them beyond the banks, beyond the oil companies. So you're starting to see clearer evidence quantifiable evidence that there's value there. I want to ask you about we have Guillermo Diaz coming up shortly, Michelle and I want to ask you your thoughts on the technical function. You mentioned it's a board level issue now, privacy. How should the CIO be communicating to the board about privacy? What should that conversation be like? >> Oh my gosh. So we now report quarterly to the board so we're getting a lot of practice We'll put it that way. I think we're on the same journey as the security teams used to you used to walk into the board and go here's what ransomware is and all of these former CFOs and sales guys would look at you and go ah, okay, onto the financials because there wasn't anything for them to do strategically. Today's board metrics are a little soft. It's more activity driven. Have you done your PIAs? Have you passed some sort of a third party audit? Are you getting rejected for third party value chain in your partner communities? That's the have not and da da da. To me I don't want my board telling us how to do operations that's how we do. To really give the board a more strategic view what we're really trying to do is study things like time to close and then showing trending impacts. The one conversation with John Chambers that's always stuck in my head is he doesn't want to know what today's snapshot is cause today's already over give me something over time, Michelle, that will trend. And so even though it sounds like, you know who cares if your sales force is a little annoyed that it takes longer to get this deal through legal well it turns out when you multiply that in a multi-billion dollar environment you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars probably a week, lost to inefficiency. So, if we believe in efficiency in the tangible supply chain that's the more strategic view I want to take and then you add on things like here's a risk portfolio a potential fair risk reporting type of thing if we want to do a new business Do we light up a business in the Ukraine right now versus Barcelona? That is a strategic conversation that is board level. We've forgotten that by giving them activity. >> Interesting what you say about Chambers. John you just interviewed John Chambers and he was the first person, in the mid 90s to talk about a virtual close, if you remember that. So, obviously, what you're talking about is way beyond that. >> Yeah and you're exactly right. Let's go back to those financial roots. One of the things we talk about in privacy engineering is getting people's heads-- the concept that the data changes. So, the day before your earnings that data will send Chuck Robbins to jail if someone is leaking it and causing people to invest accordingly. The day after, it's news, we want everyone to have it. Look at how you have to process and handle and operationalize in 24 hours. Figuring out those data stories helps it turn it on its head and make it more valuable. >> You know, you mentioned John Chambers one of the things that I noticed was he really represented Silicon Valley well in Washington DC and there's been a real void there since he retired. You guys still have a presence there and are doing stuff there and you see Amazon with Theresa Carlson doing some great work there and you still got Oracle and IBM in there doing their thing. How is your presence and leadership translating into DC now? Can you give us an update of what's happening at-- >> So, I don't know if you caught a little tweet from a little guy named Chuck Robbins this week but Chuck is actually actively engaged in the debate for US federal legislation for privacy. The last thing we want is only the lobbyists as you say and I love my lobbyists wherever you are we need them to help give information but the strategic advisors to what a federal bill looks like for an economy as large and complex and dependent on international structure we have to have the network in there. And so one of the things that we are doing in privacy is really looking at what does a solid bill look like so at long last we can get a solid piece of federal legislation and Chuck is talking about it at Davos as was everyone else, which was amazing and now you're going to hear his voice very loudly ringing through the halls of DC >> So he's upping his game in leadership in DC >> Have you seen the size of Chuck Robbins? Game upped, privacy on! >> It's a great opportunity because we need leadership in technology in DC so-- >> To affect public policy, no doubt >> Absolutely. >> And globally too. It's not just DC and America but also globally. >> Yeah, we need to serve our customers. We win when they win. >> Final question, we got to get wrapped up here but I want to get you guys a chance to talk about what you guys announced here at the show what's going on get the plug in for what's going on Cisco Trust. What's happening? >> Do you want to plug first? >> Well, I think a few things we can add. So, in addition to releasing our benchmark study this week and talking about that with customers and with the public we've also announced a new version of our privacy data sheets. This was a big tool to enable salespeople and customers to see exactly how data is being used in all of our products and so the new innovation this week is we've released these very nice, color created like subway maps, you know? They make it easy for you to navigate around it just makes it easy for people to see exactly how data flows. So again, something up on our site at trust.cisco.com where people can go and get that information and sort of make it easy. We're pushing towards simplicity and transparency in everything we do from a privacy standpoint and this is really that trajectory of making it as easy as possible for anyone to see exactly how things go and I think that's the trajectory we're on that's where the legislation both where GDPR is heading and federal legislation as well to try to make this as easy as reading the nutrition label on the food item. To say what's actually here? Do I want to buy it? Do I want to eat it? And we want to make that that easy >> Trust, transparency accountability comes into play too because if you have those things you know who's accountable. >> It's terrifying. I challenge all of my competitors go to trust.cisco.com not just my customers, love you to be there too go and look at our data subway maps. You have to be radically transparent to say here's what you get customer here's what I get, Cisco, here's where my third party's. It's not as detailed as a long report but you can get the trajectory and have a real conversation. I hope everybody gets on board with this kind of simplification. >> Trust.cisco.com we're going to keep track of it. Great work you guys are doing. I think you guys are leading the industry, Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> This is not going to end, this conversation continues will continue globally. >> Excellent >> Thanks for coming on Michelle, appreciate it. Robert thanks for coming on. CUBE coverage here day three in Barcelona. We'll be back with more coverage after this break.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas. It's the CUBE covering ServiceNow Knowledge 2018. Brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Welcome back everyone to the CUBE's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge 18 in Las Vegas Nevada. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. We've got two guests for this panel. We have Katie Benedict who is director advisory people in change at KPMG and Michelle Esposito who is the AVP technology planning for JM Family Enterprises. Welcome Katie and Michelle. >> Thank you for having us. >> So I want to start out with you Michelle, explain to our viewers what JM Family Enterprises is. >> Sure, JM Family's, we're a privately held company located in south Florida. We have about 4,200 associates across the country and I describe us as a diversified automotive company. So we started 50 years ago, it's actually our 50th anniversary. Distributing Toyotas in the U.S. We were the first distributor and we still distribute to the five south eastern states but since then we've grown and expanded into other sectors of the automotive industry. Including auto finance and warranty and insurance products. >> Okay so diversified portfolio of services. >> Yes. >> So recently you had a situation, an implementation situation. Can you tell our viewers a little bit about it and then I want you to chime in Katie with how you worked on it too. >> Sure. So we were an existing ServiceNow customer. We implemented the product back in 2011 and at the time we really just tried to make it look like our old product. We wanted to minimize the disruption to the organization so we said let's just make it look and behave like the old product did. Seemed like a good idea at the time but with that and with the change that happened over time it became very complex to use and it really just wasn't meeting our needs. So, after much consultation with a lot of experts in the field we decided to re-implement ServiceNow. We believed in the platform, we believed in its capabilities and what it could do for us but we needed to start over. So with that comes a lot of change for our organization. People re used to doing things a certain way, they're used to the processes that we already had in place. So trying to get them on board and understand the why to what we were doing was really important. >> And Katie that's where you fit in. So tell us a little bit about KPMG's approach to making this easier, because as Michelle said. We are human nature, we're just resistant to change and sort of we like it the old way. This is hard. So how, what, can you tell us a little bit about your approach. >> Exactly. We were thrilled that JM Family chose KPMG as their implementation partner and really some of things we brought specifically to the table for this re-implementation. Was some of our accelerators. Our process packs to really optimize the new processes that JM Family was using but then also our organizational change management and learning and development capabilities. We specialize in IT transformation from a people perspective and group of a specialized in ServiceNow. We've done, well over 50 implementations of ServiceNow. So we wanted to look from that people perspective, how do we get the right level of buy in. How do we make sure that people understand why we're doing the change. Get that early, quick adoption. A continuous feedback loop we implement a change agent network. Which I've found was one of the most effective things we could have done especially at JM Family given the nature of their organization and given some of the cultural considerations there and it was a tremendous success there I feel. I mean the people there, the associates there were so involved in the initiative and really partnered with our team. As a single team, it wasn't JM Family and KPMG it was one implementation team working together in tandem to make this change happen. >> So what did you learn in the sense of what were people's, what were the sticking points? And then how did you overcome them? >> Yeah. Sure I can take that. As much as people were supportive of the re-implementation and really knew we needed to do it we found that they were still very much embedded with the way we did it today. So even going into this knowing what a huge change management effort it was I was still surprised at how much effort we had to put into it. So it took a lot of communication, a lot of different methods of communication and engagement to get people to really understand what we were doing and why we were doing it. Repetition really explaining it, the change agent network was huge for us and what we did there was. We pulled in some of our bigger supporters and some of our detractors and they were able to kind of permeate the organization in the different departments within IT to really help sell what we were doing. To bring back questions and concerns. So that was really key. >> What was that like bringing in the people who were really butting heads? I mean and how do you navigate between those two factions? >> Honestly I think it was great because I'd rather get that feedback while we're going through the process than hear about it later and hear the implementation not be successful. So in some cases when people brought that feedback that maybe wasn't so positive it was just a matter of more communication, more training but in other times it was you know we really scratched our head and said maybe we really need the rethink about this. Maybe they've got something here and we may need to tweak our approach or do something a little differently. But it was as Katie mentioned, the engagement level was phenomenal. So the positive and the negative we really had a very engaged team. >> So coming out of this Katie, what would you say are sort of the best practices for other leaders that are doing implementation, re-implementations and maybe dealing with some resistance? >> I would say definitely whether it's the implementation or a re-implementation. Don't forget about your people. The technology, especially ServiceNow is fabulous and your processes are generally are standard. You can align to idle processes but getting the adoption is really key and so remembering that this is a transformation. It's not just an implementation of the technology. Paying attention to the people, making sure that they're on board. They know what you're doing, why you're doing it and really what's in it for them is vital to making this a successful project. >> As you're looking at the ServiceNow platform and what you do for JM Family Enterprises what do you see looking ahead as sort of ways you can augment and enhance? >> Oh they have a lot of ideas going forward right now which is very exciting. >> It is, you know we focused in, we're in a second phase implementation. Our first phase really focused on the core ITSM functions and now we're dipping our toe into some other areas. The PPM suite, vendor management, performance analytics. So we're really continuing to mature our use of the product and even looking beyond that. You know we have interest in some of the security operations and even further than that into some of the financial management capabilities. So we definitely plan to continue invest in the platform and see what it can do for us. >> You're evolving just as ServiceNow is evolving too. >> Yes we are. >> Well Michelle and Katie thanks so much for coming on the CUBE. It was great having you. >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, we will have much more of the CUBE's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge 18. Hashtag no 18 just after this.

>> Voiceover: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think 2018. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas everybody, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and this is day three of our wall-to-wall coverage of IBM Think 2018, the inaugural event, IBM's consolidated a number of events here, I've been joking there's too many people to count, I think it's between 30 and 40,000 people. Michelle Boockoff-Bajdek is here, she's the president of >> Michelle: Good job. >> Global Marketing, Michelle B-B, for short >> Yes. >> Global Marketing, business solutions at IBM, and John Bobo, who's the managing director of Racing Ops at NASCAR. >> Yes. >> We're going to have, a fun conversation. >> I think it's going to be a fun one. >> Michelle B-B, start us off, why is weather such a hot topic, so important? >> Well, I think as you know we're both about to fly potentially into a snowstorm tonight, I mean weather is a daily habit. 90% of all U.S. adults consume weather on a weekly basis, and at the weather company, which is part of IBM, right, an IBM business, we're helping millions of consumers anticipate, prepare for, and plan, not just in the severe, but also in the every day, do I carry an umbrella, what do I do? We are powering Apple, Facebook, Yahoo, Twitter, So if you're getting your weather from those applications, you're getting it from us. And on average we're reaching about 225 million consumers, but what's really interesting is while we've got this tremendous consumer business and we're helping those millions of consumers, we're also helping businesses out there, right? So, there isn't a business on the planet, and we'll talk a little bit about NASCAR, that isn't impacted by weather. I would argue that it is incredibly essential to business. There's something like a half a trillion dollars in economic impact from weather alone, every single year here in the U.S. And so most businesses don't yet have a weather strategy, so what's really important is that we help them understand how to take weather insights and turn it into a business advantage. >> Well let's talk about that, how does NASCAR take weather insights and turn it into a business advantage, what are you guys doing, John, with, with weather? >> Oh, it's very important to us, we're 38 weekends a year, we're probably one of the longest seasons in professional sports, we produce over 500 hours of live television just in our top-tier series a year, we're a sport, we're a business, we're an entertainment property, and we're entertaining hundreds of thousands of people live at an event, and then millions of people at home who are watching us over the internet or watching us on television through our broadcast partners. Unlike other racing properties, you know, open-wheeled racing, it's a lot of downforce, they can race in the rain. A 3,500 pound stock car cannot race in the rain, it's highly dangerous, so rain alone is going to have to postpone the event, delay the event, and that's a multi-million dollar decision. And so what we're doing with Weather Channel is we're getting real-time information, hyper-localized models designed around our event within four kilometers of every venue, remember, we're in a different venue every week across the country. Last week we're in the Los Angeles market, next week we're going to be in Martinsville, Virginia. It also provides us a level of consistency, as places we go, and knowing we can pick up the phone and get decision support from the weather desk, and they know us, and they care as much about us as we do, and what we need to do, it's been a big help and a big confidence builder. >> So NASCAR fans are some of the most fanatic fans, a fan of course is short for fanatic, they love the sport, they show up, what happens when, give us the before and after, before you kind of used all this weather data, what was it like before, what was the fan impact, and how is that different now? >> Going back when NASCAR first started getting on television, the solution was we would send people out in cars with payphone money, and they would watch for weather all directions, and then they would call it in, say, "the storm's about ten miles out." Then when it went to the bulky cell phones that were about as big as a bread box, we would give them to them and then they would be in the pullover lane and kind of follow the storm in and call Race Control to let us know. It has three big impacts. First is safety, of the fans and safety of our competitors through every event. The second impact is on the competition itself, whether the grip of the tires, the engine temperature, how the wind is going to affect the aerodynamics of the car, and the third is on the industry. We've got a tremendous industry that travels, and what we're going to have to do to move that industry around by a different day, so we couldn't be more grateful for where we're able to make smarter decisions. >> So how do you guys work together, maybe talk about that. >> Well, so, you know, I think, I think one of the things that John alluded to that's so important is that they do have the most accurate, precise data out there, right, so when we talk about accuracy, a single model, or the best model in the world isn't going to produce the best forecast, it's actually a blend of 162 models, and we take the output of that and we're providing a forecast for anywhere that you are, and it's specific to you and it's weighted differently based on where you are. And then we talk about that precision, which gets down to that four kilometer space that John alluded to that is so incredibly important, because one of the things that we know is that weather is in fact hyper-local, right, if you are within two kilometers of a weather-reporting station, your weather report is going to be 15% more accurate. Now think about that for a minute, analytics perspective, right, when you can get 15% more accuracy, >> Dave: Huge. >> You're going to have a much better output, and so that precision point is important, and then there's the scale. John talks about having 38 race weekends and sanctioning 1,200 races, but also we've got millions of consumers that are asking us for weather data on a daily basis, producing 25 billion forecasts for all of those folks, again, 2.2 billion locations around the world at that half a kilometer resolution. And so what this means is that we're able to give John and his Racing Operations Team the best, most accurate forecast on the planet, and not just the raw data, but the insight, so what we've built, in partnership with Flagship, one of our business partners, is the NASCAR Weather Track, and this is a race operations dashboard that is very specific to NASCAR and the elements that are most important to them. What they need to see right there, visible, and then when they have a question they can call right into a meteorologist who is on-hand 24/7 from the Wednesday leading up to a race all the way till that checkered flag goes down, providing them with any insight, right, so we always have that human intelligence, because while the forecast is great you always want somebody making that important decision that is in fact a multi-million dollar one. >> John, can you take us through the anatomy of how you get from data to insight, I mean you got to, it's amazing application here, you got the edge, you got the cloud, you got your operations center, when do you start, how do you get the data, who analyzes the data, how do you get to decision making? >> Yeah, we're data hogs in every aspect of the sport, whether it's our cars, our events, or even our own operations. We get through Flagship Solutions, and they do a fantastic job through a weather dashboard, the different solutions. We start getting reports on Monday for the week ahead. And so we're tracking it, and in fact it adds some drama to the event, especially as we're looking at the forecast for Martinsville this upcoming weekend. We work closely with our broadcast partners, our track partners, you know, we don't own the venues of where we go, we're the sports league, so we're working with broadcast, we're working with our track venues, and then we're also working with everyone in the industry and all our other official sponsors, and people that come to an event to have a great time. Sometimes we're making those decisions in the event itself, while the race is going on, as things may pop up, pop-up storms, things may change, but whether it's their advice on how to create our policy and be smarter about that, whether it's the real-time data that makes us smarter, or just being able to pick up a phone and discuss the various multi-variables that we see occurring in a situation, what we need to do live, to do, and it's important to us. >> So, has it changed the way, sometimes you might have to cancel an event, obviously, so has it changed the way in which you've made that decision and communicate to your, to your customers, your fans? >> Yeah, absolutely, it's made a lot of us smarter, going into a weekend. You know, weather is something everybody has an opinion about, and so we feel grateful that we can get our opinion from the best place in the country. And then what we do with that is we can either move an event up, we can delay an event, and it helps us make those smarter decisions, and we never like to cancel an event cause it's important to the competition, we may postpone it a day, run a race on a Monday or Tuesday, but you know a 10, 11:00 race on a Monday is not the best viewership for our broadcast partners. So, we're doing everything we can to get the race in that day. >> Yeah so it's got to be a pretty radical condition to cancel a race, but then. >> Yes, yeah. >> So what you'll do is you'll predict, you'll pull out the yellow flag, everybody slows down, and you'll be able to anticipate when you're going to have to do that, is that right, versus having people, you know. >> Right. >> Calling on the block phones? >> Or if we say, let's start the race two hours early, and that's good for the track, it's good for our broadcast partners, and we can get the race in before the bad weather occurs, we're going to do that. >> Okay, and then, so, where are you taking this thing, Michelle, I mean, what is John asking you for, how are you responding, maybe talk about the partnership a little bit. >> Well, you know, yes, so I, you know the good news is that we're a year into this partnership and I think it's been fantastic, and our goal is to continue to provide the best weather insights, and I think what we will be looking at are things like scenario plannings, so as we start to look longer-range, what are some of the things that we can do to better anticipate not just the here and now, but how do we plan for scenarios? We've been looking at severe weather playbooks too, so what is our plan for severe weather that we can share across the organization? And then, you know, I think too, it's understanding potentially how can we create a better fan experience, and how can we get some of this weather insight out to the fans themselves so that they can see what's going to happen with the weather and better prepare. It's, you know, NASCAR is such a tremendous partner for us because they're showcasing the power of these weather insights, but there isn't a business on the planet that isn't impacted, I mean, you know we're working with 140 airlines, we're working with utility companies that need to know how much power is going to be consumed on the grid tomorrow, they don't care as much about a temperature, they want to know how much power is going to be consumed, so when you think about the decisions that these companies have to make, yes the forecast is great and it's important, but it really is what are the insights that I can derive from all of that data that are going to make a big difference? >> Investors. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Airlines. >> Airlines, utility companies, retailers. >> Logistics. >> Logistics, you know, if you think about insurance companies, right, there's a billion dollars in damage every single year from hail. Property damage, and so when you think about these organizations where every single, we just did this great weather study, and I have to get you a copy of it, but the Institute of Business Value at IBM did a weather study and we surveyed a thousand C-level executives, every single one of them said that weather had an impact on at least one revenue metric, every single, 100%. And 93% of them said that if they had better weather insights it would have a positive impact on their business. So we know that weather's important, and what we've got to do is really figure out how we can help companies better harness it, but nobody's doing it better than these guys. >> I want to share a stat that we talked about off-camera. >> Sure. >> 'Cause we all travel, I was telling a story, my daughter got her flight canceled, very frustrating, but I like it because at least you now know you can plan at home, but you had a stat that it's actually improved the situation, can you share that? >> Right, yeah, so nobody likes to have their flights canceled, right, and we know that 70% of all airline delays are due to weather, but one of the things we talked about is, you know, is our flight going to go out? Well airlines are now operating with a greater degree of confidence, and so what they're doing is they trust the forecast more. So they're able to cancel flights sooner, and by doing so, and I know nobody really likes to have their flight canceled, but by doing so, when we know sooner, we're now able to return those airlines to normal operations even faster, and reduce cancellations in total by about 11%. That's huge. And so I think that when you look at the business impact that these weather insights can have across all of these industries, it's just tremendous. >> So if you're a business traveler, you're going to be better off in the long run. >> That's right, I promise. >> So John I have to ask you about the data science, when IBM bought the weather company a big part of the announcement was the number of data scientists that you guys brought to the table. There's an IOT aspect as well, which is very important. But from a data science standpoint, how much do you lean on IBM for the data science, do you bring your own data scientists to the table, how to they collaborate? >> No no, we lean totally on them, this is their expertise. Nobody's going to be better at it in the world than they are, but, you know, we know that at certain times past data may be more predictive, we know that at different times different data sets show different things and they show so much, we want to have cars race, we want to concentrate on officiating a race, putting on the bet entertainment we can for sports fans, it's a joy to look at their data and pick up the phone and not have to figure this out for myself. >> Yeah, great. Well John, Michelle, thanks so much for coming. >> Thank you. >> I'll give you the last word, Michelle, IBM Think, the weather, make a prediction, whatever you like. >> Well, I just have to say, for all of you who are heading home tonight, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, so good luck there. And if you haven't, this is the one thing I have to say, if you haven't had the opportunity to go to a NASCAR race, please do so, it is one of the most exciting experiences around. >> Oh, and I want to mention, I just downloaded this new app. Storm Radar. >> Oh yes, please do. >> Storm radar. So far, I mean I've only checked it out a little bit, but it looks great. Very high ratings, 13,600 people have rated it, it's a five rating, five stars, you should check it out. >> Michelle: I love that. >> Storm Radar. >> John: It is good isn't it. >> And just, just check it out on your app store. >> So, thanks you guys, >> Michelle: Love that. Thank you so much. >> Really appreciate it. And thank you for watching, we'll be right back right after this short break, you're watching theCUBE live from Think 2018. (light jingle)

(upbeat contemporary music) >> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain It's theCUBE covering Cisco Live 2018 brought to you by Cisco, Veeam, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier cofounder SiliconANGLE cohost of theCUBE with my cohost partner Stu Miniman this week analyst at Wikibon.com also cohost at many shows across the industry. Our next two guests talking about data, data privacy is Michelle Dennedy who's the vice-president chief privacy officer at Cisco and Robert Waitman who works for her. We've got a smashing new data report to share with you about some of the surveys and customers and impact of privacy in business. Michelle, Robert thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Michelle, good to see you again. You were on the front pages of SiliconAngle.com as a feature story this week of the interview you had on the ground with theCUBE team, welcome back. >> You can't get rid of me. >> Well we love having you on because it's really important because not only is GDPR which we reported on for our last interview but the role of data, data driven organizations you hear that at every C-Sweep from security to user experience and everything in between down the data center. You're measuring everything certainly Cisco managing data center and everything else. But this really nuanced thing here about impacts to businesses because now users are in control of their data and you're seeing things like cryptocurrency and immutable block chain on one end and then just what are the rights of the users and the consumers in context to digital business? This is one of the most cutting-edge social and technical issues. I mean GDPR is a nightmare in and of itself just to figure out where the hell the data is. >> Some people's nightmare is other people's dreams. >> It's good for users but not good for database administrators, good for the tech industry. What are the current challenges right now from your perspective? What are you seeing as the core top three issues that you see around data and data privacy impacting business? >> Well I think you actually put your finger right in the heart of it. It is coming together of human rights, human needs, policy law meets technology capability and functionality. So I think understanding that the data is the common currency across all of these systems whether you're talking about human rights and ownership, whether you're talking about legal rights and management that data currency goes across educating people and making them understand that currency is absolutely critical to surviving this next new era. >> As always I tell my kids advice, I say that if you want to get into something cutting edge, get into data science meets societal, political science and social science. >> Michele: Exactly >> As that's coming together and you know Steve Jobs had that liberal arts meets social meets technology kind of intersection. What are some of the brightest minds in the industry that are in your area working on? I mean how are they attacking this? Are they looking at it from a big picture? Are they diving deep into it? What are the brightest minds doing in this area? >> Well so I have a deep bias and of course I hired some of the best minds here, right? I think the pragmatic mind, I'll put it that way rather than judging anybody's thing. If you're writing pretty policies like, brava to you. But what I really like to see is looking at what is a data inventory? Starting to look at data as a supply chain issue. And the reason I love supply chain and management and measurement is we know how to do it. So we're applying these common business schemas and strategies to this newer functionality of data as a piece of currency that changes and is contextual over time. So the pragmatic thinking I'll put it that way is to really look at privacy engineering as first a business use case requirements gathering exercise and then figuring out how does it work in the architecture. What's your industry? What kind of data do you have? And then you can figure out what are those granular features and requirements. And then the rest of your supply chain pulls through. So when you take kind of that management approach it sounds a little plodding but it's actually very exciting. There's a lot of innovation, it must happen. >> Another thing that we cover I was looking on our research side is nailing that exact point. How do you instrument the data? So talk about some of the confluence things that you just mentioned but then as business starts to look at how they value themselves so we really haven't seen any cutting edge data on this, would love to get your perspective on how data is impacting the valuation of a business. Because valuation techniques have been mostly financial, because you can measure it. >> Yup >> But now that you have data as currency as you mentioned, how are companies looking at the valuation of their enterprise? >> So I brought along a little friend today, because we really believe that the mantra in my working group within Cisco is values to value. So figuring out the instrumentation of the gear. You know I have a lot of support to do that within Cisco, we do engineering pretty good. But then figuring out we actually went out to some academics, we looked at what other people in the marketplace as you say, not a lot of metrics about how to instead of saying how much have we lost, how do we know that there is progress? And so Robert Waitman joined my team about two years ago I stole him from the worlds of economy and finance and business preparation and he said, I don't know anything about privacy and data. He does now, but I said I don't really want you for that, I want to start to build a model that we can share with the world on how to value data and how to look at the upside as well as the downside. >> So Robert, I've got to ask you so one of the things we've been riffing on in theCUBE recently is with the role of decentralized applications and this kind of applies to network theory because Cisco has been a successful network company, the role of the chief economic officer a term that we made up because you're starting to see economics certainly with token economics with cryptocurrency that's all the rage right now so Facebook just recently banned all ads for the coin offerings, but that is the trend that's happening, right? So you're starting to see the role of an economist in business. So with data the valuation, this seems to be a new trend. Your thoughts and reaction to that. >> Yeah, well you know data's not on the balance sheets, so we don't typically valuate and manage it the way you'd manage all of our other assets. But data, especially when it's well curated which is one of the things that privacy enables with that unlocks a lot of values. But that's kind of the focus of our research. Say look, GDPR and all those other things can require you to do certain things, but by having data that's well curated, you can unlock value for your organization. And there are a lot of different ways to do that, whether it's operational or whether it's revenue upside you can get from better understanding curation of your data. >> Before we get into the reports, I just want to ask you one follow up question. Do you see a day where there is going to be a fiscal and monetary data policy? >> Michelle: Yes >> Yes and yes? >> Absolutely and you know, this was predicted. This is my favorite quote. I say it everyday and I'll say it again today. Grace Hopper, 1965 that one day information will be on the corporate balance sheet, because it's more valuable than the hardware that processes it. That day is now. We have enough granularity in the system to actually have big data and analytics. We have enough compute power. The day is now to understand and now we have to figure out what's that report look like and how do we ride on that trend? >> Do you that that's a strategic imperative for CEOs of companies to actually get the data on the balance sheet? >> If so, how? >> I'm going to say that here first. The ones who get it on first are the ones who win. Now they won't get it on the balance sheets first as Robert pointed out. You cannot under our current accounting rules; however, just like we took brand and we turned it into an asset and we valued that asset. It's not allowed on many balance sheets. It's definitely something to invest in or divest in and to curate and measure. So I could go on for a long time about this particular topic. >> We'd love to hear a whole segment on this cutting edge data concepts and currency. Stu wants to get a question in here, go ahead Stu. >> Robert, the keynote yesterday it was security is one of those headwinds you know preventing companies from innovators to slow them down. You've got some good data on privacy and want share what is the mindset of the customers? You know, we've been asking is GDPR just going to slow things to a grinding halt, you know in IT? We think there are some opportunities there, but what's the data telling you? What are you hearing from customers? >> Well I think the world that we're in the background is that customers are asking more questions about data and data privacy, but before they buy a product or service, they want to know who has access to my data? What's it being used for? Is it going to be deleted? How long is it kept? All of those questions are contemplated by GDPR but it's a broader issue of general having privacy controls around data. So in seeing that environment we were wondering as a team is to what extent can we measure how much business may be slowed down by those kinds of questions. And so the study we released last week quantified that for the first time. And what we learned is that 65% of companies globally, and this is based on a survey of 3000 corporations around the world double-blind so we don't know who they are, 65% of them said that we are in fact they are in fact experiencing sales delays due to data privacy issues. And remarkably the average delay is seven point eight weeks. That's almost two months on average across all of these companies having a delay due to customers' asking the right questions about where their data is. We find that remarkable again adding to the idea that organizations who invest and do a better job on this can manage that to a greater degree. >> Just a clarification here this is the germ of the Privacy Maturity Benchmark Study >> Michelle: Correct >> And you can check it out on Robert's Twitter handle which is Robert Waitman his full name no space RobertWaitman W-A-I-T-M-A-N, saw that pinned on your top tweet. Impact to business >> Right >> More cost, more value again unlocking the value we totally agree with you by the way. How and at what cost? >> Well, that cost of sales delay translates into many things that affect the company's bottom line. You might miss quarterly or annual forecast because you're not making revenue. It could be that you lose sales. Once you delay a sale, you're more likely to lose a sale, so every company would be in a different situation as to how much impact it has on their product portfolio and to what degree they're seeing these delays. What we did find is that privacy and investments in privacy maturity can help manage it, so those organizations that are immature from a privacy standpoint are seeing the longest delays on average 16.8 weeks of the most immature and for the companies that are privacy mature according to the standard model only three point four weeks. So think about the difference. Sixteen point eight or three point four by having investments in privacy and we show that correlation and it makes sense because companies can manage their data better >> We've been also riffing on the notion that security was handled in the early days with perimeter based security and now, you know, it's no perimeter. It's the wild west. Security is a great example. You know, of all the vendors no one has more than four percent market share. It's a disaster and we know that. We have friends working on it. Privacy is the same way, it's almost like we got to cover the check box you know compliance. We have a privacy statement, we handle the data. It's more reactive more protection oriented not proactive. So the question is what should companies be doing to be more proactive in driving privacy oriented investments which now we see that translate to more of a business impact certainly at valuation and capability. >> Yup >> Thoughts? >> Well, I mean I would start by saying that what we're trying to put out there is that it's not just about compliance. So this is about both business value on the revenue or cost side as well as the ethical standards that we're trying to set. So we should be doing these privacy controls, because it's the right things to do regardless of the GDPR environment that we're in currently. So that's kind of the overall missioning and it's much longer term than just the GDPR timetable but it's trying to get companies to do the right things to protect the data and also because it's good for their businesses. >> Any anecdotal data on investment thesis, orientation posture from CEOs? What is the investment climate? Are they putting money into it or are they just kind of holding the line? Right now I'm trying to figure things out. Thoughts? >> Thoughts on this one? >> Million dollar question >> Yeah, so and it's a billion dollar question actually which is an important one. I think where we are seeing investment and when when we talk about privacy maturity you can come at it from a number of different vectors. So privacy engineering to Cisco is critical we sell IT things and we depend upon data as an asset, so you would expect us to do heavy investments in raising our security baseline. We've done it. We're having specific training for developers. We've done it and my team actually does not live in legal. I have a wonderful legal support team. I live in operations. So one of the investments you can make is to operationalize your working so you understand which of your business requirements are data sensitive and adding them on. The other piece of the study that is correlated again no causality yet, but we're correlating the number, mix and the complexity of your vendor set with the trend and reporting of the actual harm after a breach. >> Right, so we looked at the privacy maturity and also compared to companies who had been breached and how much they reported they had lost on this. And so interestingly again the privacy immature companies many more of them had lost enough metric here we used was over half a million dollars due to data breaches so 74% of those immature versus only 39% of the mature guys. Now why is that? We can speculate that those who are protecting their data, only keeping the data they need for their business purposes deleting it when they're done with it and having the right knowledge and inventory of where they are, are doing a better job at protecting that critical data asset. So it makes sense, but we need to learn more about what really is behind it and causing that. >> It's so interesting because there's a relationship with security, because that's where people react to what happens if there's a breach in security but they're also separate, decoupled in their own way, and it's interesting that you mention it in your organization and that's I think that is really notable and something I'd like to just double-click on. Most companies' viewed security in the early days metaphor for security in an organizational setting it's part of IT. Now it reports to the C-suite. >> Yes You're getting at a different angles. You're thinking about privacy and data as a separate group not being subservient as say legal or administration function. It's more central to the C-Suite. >> Absolutely >> Are you recommending that companies think differently? >> Absolutely >> Can you explain why? >> Oh I think and again it varies company to company, so I would love to say you know, I'm a legal person by training or I ran away from home from legal a long time ago, so I'm a business person. It's valuable to have lawyers we're nice people. We can be funny sometimes, but typically most companies it is like Bob, Joe, Sally and legal. Now what kind of an innovation posture are you taking? The other part is you know in our lawyers' defenses there is such a plethora and complexity of the laws that they have to be determinative and say this is just enough and this is the gray area. Innovators don't think like that. I don't want my innovators to think like that. I want to do the experimentation so in addition to the work we do in house with our economic guru we actually partner with universities to do financial studies to say where you're having potential breaches at every layer of the network what's the quanta? The other side is I have a seat at the table with all of our engineering teams and our business development teams so that makes a huge difference. >> I totally agree. Robert, I want to ask you a question. Back to my theory that we'll have a C-E-O chief economist officer as a standard role in a similar way not just call in the strategy guy, right? >> Michelle: Yes >> So it's like strategy hey you know whatever. This is really becoming a decentralized world global impact whether it's GDPR or other compliance economic impact is a really critical thing. >> Robert: Right >> What is your view for companies to think about the role of a company and or group to be like a economist center? Like a C-T-O is really important but you also have a V-P of engineering. So C-T-O, V-P of engineering Chief economist officer and group How do you look at that world and how do you envision it in unfolding? >> Well, I think that one element that most companies don't have today is somebody who really thinks about data and the economic value of it today and what it means. Again, because it's not on the balance sheet it's not treated the same way but it's one of our most important assets. So having someone who at least focuses on what is the value and importance of this data to my organization and all the ways that do. Whether it's my value you know in driving my ongoing operations whether it's allowing me to cut costs, whether it's unlocking value that my organization could uncover by inventorying and developing that. So I think that economic value piece of data you know is something that we're going to see more of and because data is being recognized as such an important asset I think there will be some progress in that. >> I think Michelle you made a great point about supply chain. We've been seeing the same trend in that. Block chain has been a great example where not so much bitcoin and a theory of encrypto, block chain as a technology has been impacting the supply chain. That's a data driven trend. >> Michelle: It's exclusively a data driven trend. I mean what you're talking about is indelible auth. And so there's always a place for authentication. Sometimes you just want a watermark. Sometimes you want a dossier. That's I mean that's the whole mystique of block chain is gorgeous but the reality is it's a wonderful tool if you want to authenticate something in the clair. Just like we were talking about P-K-I in the old days now if you apply that to data, so what you're calling a chief economic officer I would call a chief data officer. >> So again economics, ledger, hyper-ledger, block chain are we looking at maybe the world is going to circumvent existing standards with you know disruption with like a block chain, crypto centralized does that come together? I mean it's a collision course, no one knows the answer. Observation? >> Well, there may be some opportunities to do that. But I'm sure that we'll try to have the right ways to have controls around it as well. So not just to birth the system but to do it in a way that makes sense to protect the values that we are all trying to hold onto in terms of individual values you know as well as having the right monitoring and systems around them. >> You know Cisco disrupted the entire network protocols back in the 80s by unlocking value. And again value is the key driver of making change not just for the sake of subverting. >> I love that you're saying that because disruption has always bothered me. That's like me grabbing the chair and watching you fall down and going oh look I have a softer chair. I'd rather like have a more reductionist point of view and say what is essential value. Let's clear out the gunk that's getting in your way. >> Value is the north star for all >> It is. I think it's madly innovative and will it change businesses radically? Yes. If we want to call that disruption we can, but I think it's actually enablement of what we wanted in the first place but don't have yet. >> Well people know me I'm very bullish on crypto and block chain as a unlocking value and changing patterns and offering a new re-imagining industries that are just not moving fast enough >> Wow >> To capture the value >> Yeah >> John: Thanks so much guys for coming on. I know we slotted you in because it's a super important conversation to hear at Cisco Live and the industry. Love to have more time. Maybe we can do a follow-up with you guys. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, you too! >> It's theCUBE talking data privacy, investment, valuing data on the balance sheet. A lot of radical, progressive, cool value opportunities for the industry out there and enterprises. Yeah, this is theCUBE live coverage from Barcelona. More after this short break. (techno music)

(screen switch sound) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the place that you should be. Where is that you say? Linked-In's new downtown San Francisco's headquarters at Data Privacy Day 2018. It's a small, but growing event. Talking, really a lot about privacy. You know we talk a lot about security all the time. But privacy is this kind of other piece of security and ironically it's often security that's used as a tool to kind of knock privacy down. So it's an interesting relationship. We're really excited to be joined by our first guest Michelle Dennedy. We had her on last year, terrific conversation. She's the Chief Privacy Officer at Cisco and a keynote speaker here. Michelle, great to see you again. >> Great to see you and happy privacy day. >> Thank you, thank you. So it's been a year, what has kind of changed on the landscape from a year ago? >> Well, we have this little thing called GDPR. >> Jeff: That's right. >> You know, it's this little old thing the General Data Protection Regulation. It's been, it was enacted almost two years ago. It will be enforced May 25, 2018. So everyone's getting ready. It's not Y2K, it's the beginning of a whole new era in data. >> But the potential penalties, direct penalties. Y2K had a lot of indirect penalties if the computers went down that night. But this has significant potential financial penalties that are spelled out very clearly. Multiples of revenue. >> Absolutely >> So what are people doing? How are they getting ready? Obviously, the Y2k, great example. It was a scramble. No one really knew what was going to happen. So what are people doing to get ready for this? >> Yeah, I think its, I like the analogy it ends because January one, after 2000, we figured it out, right? Or it didn't happen because of our prep work. In this case, we have had 20 years of lead time. 1995, 1998, we had major pieces of legislation saying know thy data, know where it's going, value it and secure it, and make sure your users know where and what it is. We didn't do a whole lot about it. There are niche market people, like myself, who said "Oh my gosh, this is really important." but now the rest of the world has to wake up and pay attention because four percent of global turnover is not chump change in a multi-billion dollar business and in a small business it could be the only available revenue stream that you wanted to spend innovating-- >> Right, right >> rather than recovering. >> But the difficulty again, as we've talked about before is not as much the companies. I mean obviously the companies have a fiduciary responsibility. But the people-- >> Yes. >> On the end of the data, will hit the ULA as we talked about before without thinking about it. They're walking around sharing all this information. They're logging in to public WiFi's and we actually even just got a note at theCube the other day asking us what our impact, are we getting personal information when we're filming stuff that's going out live over the internet. So I think this is a kind of weird implication. >> I wish I could like feel sad for that but there's a part of my privacy soul that's like, "Yes! People should be asking. "What are you doing with my image after this? "How will you repurpose this video? "Who are my users looking at it?" I actually, I think it's difficult at first to get started. But once you know how to do it, it's like being a nutritionist and a chef all in one. Think about the days before nutrition labels for food. When it was first required, and very high penalties of the same quanta of the GDPR and some of these other Asiatic countries are the same, people simply didn't know what they were eating. >> Right. >> People couldn't take care of their health and look for gluten free, or vitamin E, or vitamin A, or omega whatever. Now, it's a differentiator. Now to get there, people had to test food. They had to understand sources. They had to look at organics and pesticides and say, "This is something that the populace wants." And look at the innovation and even something as basic and integral to your humanity as food now we're looking at what is the story that we're sharing with one another and can we put the same effort in to get the same benefits out. Putting together a nutrition label for your data, understanding the mechanisms, understanding the life cycle flow. It's everything and is it a pain in the tuckus some times? You betcha. Why do it? A: You're going to get punished if you don't. But more importantly, B: It's the gateway to innovation. >> Right. It's just funny. We talked to a gal in a security show and she's got 100% hit rate. She did this at Black Hat, social engineering access to anything. Basically by calling, being a sweetheart, asking the right questions and getting access to people's-- >> Exactly. >> So where does that fit in terms of the company responsibility, when they are putting everything, as much as they can in their place. Here like at AWS too you'll hear, "Somebody has a security breach at AWS." Well it wasn't the security of the AWS system, it was somebody didn't hit a toggle switch in the right position. >> That's right. >> So it's pretty complex versus if you're a food manufacturer, hopefully you have pretty good controls as to what you put in the food and then you can come back and define. So it's a really complicated problem when it's the users who you're tryna protect that are often the people that are causing the most problems. >> Absolutely. And every analogy has its failures right? >> Right, right. >> We'll stick with food for a while. >> Oh no I like the food one. >> Alright it's something you can understand. >> Y2K is kind of old, right. >> Yeah, yeah. But think about like, have we made, I was going to use a brand name, a spray on cheese chip, have we made that illegal? That stuff is terrible for your body. We have an obesity crisis here in North America certainly, and other parts of the world, and yet we let people choose what they're putting into their bodies. At the same time we're educating consumers about what the new food chart should look like, we're listening to maybe sugar isn't as good as we thought it was, maybe fat isn't as bad. So giving people some modicum of control doesn't mean that people are always going to make the right choices but at least we give them a running chance by being able to test and separate and be accountable for at least what we put into the ingredients. >> Right, right, okay so what are some of the things you're working on at Cisco? I think you said before we go on the air you have a new report published, study, what's going on? I do, I'm ashamed Jeff to be so excited about data but, I'm excited about data. (laughter) >> Everybody's excited about data. >> Are they? >> Absolutely. >> Alright let's geek out for a moment. >> So what did you find out? >> So we actually did the first metrics reporting correlating data privacy maturity models and asking customers, 3,000 customers plus in 20 different countries from companies of all sizes S and B's to very large corps, are you experiencing a slow down based on the fears of privacy and security problems? We found that 68 percent of these questions said yes indeed we are, and we asked them what is the average timing of slowing down closing business based on these fears. We found a big spread from over 16 and a half weeks all the way down to two weeks. We said that's interesting. We asked that same set of customers, where would you put yourself on a zero to five ad hoc to optimized privacy maturity model. What we found was if you were even middle of the road a three or a four, to having some awareness, having some basic tools, you can lower your risk of loss, by up to 70 percent. I'm making it sound like it's causation, it's just a correlation but it was such a strong one that when we ran the data last year I didn't run the report, because we weren't sure enough. So we ran it again and got the same quantum with a larger sample size. So now I feel pretty confident that the self reporting of data maturity is related to closing business more efficiently and faster on the up side and limiting your losses on the down side. >> Right, so where are the holes? What's the easiest way to get from a zero or one to a three or a four, I don't even want to say three or four, two or three in terms of behaviors, actions, things that people do? >> So you're scratching on my geeky legal underbelly here. (laughter) I'm going to say it depends Jeff. >> Of course of course. >> Couching this and I'm not your lawyer. >> No forward licking statements. >> No forward licking statement. Well, for a reason what the heck. We're looking forward not back. It really does depend on your organization. So, Cisco, my company we are known for engineering. In fact on the down side of our brand, we're known for having trouble letting go until everything is perfect. So, sometimes it's slower than you want cause we want to be so perfect. In that culture my coming into the engineering with their bonafides and their pride in their brand, that's where I start to attack with privacy engineering education, and looking at specs and requirements for the products and services. So hitting my company where it lives in engineering was a great place to start to build in maturity. In a company like a large telco or healthcare or highly regulated industry, come from the legal aspect. Start with compliance if that's what is effective for your organization. >> Right, right. >> So look at where you are in your organization and then hit it there first, and then you can fill up, document those policies, make sure training is fun. Don't be afraid to embarrass yourself. It's kind of my mantra these days. Be a storyteller, make it personal to your employees and your customers, and actually care. >> Right, hopefully, hopefully. >> It's a weird thing to say right, you actually should give a beep >> Have a relationship with people. When you look at how companies moved that curve from last year to this year was it a significant movement? Was it more than you thought less than you thought? Is it appropriate for what's coming up? >> We haven't tracked individual companies time after time cause it's double blind study. So it's survey data. The survey numbers are statistically relevant. That when you have a greater level of less ad hoc and more routinized systems, more privacy policies that are stated and transparent, more tools and technologies that are implemented, measured, tested, and more board level engagement you start to see that even if you have a cyber risk the chances that it's over 500 thousand per event goes down precipitously. If you are at that kind of mid range level of maturity you can take off 70 percent of the lag time and go from about four months of closing a deal that has privacy and security implications to somewhere around two to three weeks. That's a lot of time. Time in business is everything. We run by the quarter. >> Yeah well if you don't sell it today, you never get today back. You might sell it tomorrow, but you never get today back. Alright so we just flipped the calendar. I can't believe it's 2018. That's a whole different conversation. (laughter) What are your priorities for 2018 as you look forward? >> Oh my gosh. I am hungry for privacy engineering to become a non niche topic. We're going out to universities. We're going out to high schools. We're doing innovation challenges within Cisco to make innovating around data a competitive advantage for everyone, and come up with a common language. So that if you're a user interface guy you're thinking about data control and the stories that you're telling about what the real value is behind your thing. If you are a compliance guy or girl, how do I efficiently measure? How do I come back again in three months without having compliance fatigue, because after the first couple days of enforcement of GDPR and some of these other laws come into force it's really easy to say whew, it didn't hit me. I've got no problem now. >> Right. >> That is not the attitude I want people to take. I want them to take real ownership over this information. >> It's very ana logist to what's happening in security. >> Very much so. >> Just baking it in all the way. It's not a walled garden. You can't defend the perimeter anymore, but it's got to be baked into everything. >> It's no mistake that it's like the security world. They're about 25 years ahead of us in data privacy and protection. My boss is our chief trust officer who formally was our CISO I am absolutely free riding on all the progresses the security people have made. We're just really complimenting each others skills, and getting out into other parts of the business in addition to the technical part of the business. >> Exciting times. >> Yeah, it's going to be fun. >> Well great to catch up and >> Yeah you too. >> We'll let you go. Unfortunately we're out of time. We'll see you in 2019. >> Data Privacy Day. >> Data Privacy Day. She's Michelle Dennedy, I'm Jeff Frank. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for tuning in from Data Privacy Day 2018. (music)