>>from Santa Clara, California In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Okay, welcome back to altitude. 2020 for the folks on the Livestream. I'm John Furrier Steve Mullaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with Cloud Network Architects. We got Bobby. Will be They gone. Luis Castillo, National Instruments. David should nick with fact set. Guys, welcome >>to the stage for this digital >>event. Come on up. >>Hey, good to see you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah. >>Okay. Customer panel. This is my favorite part. We get to hear the real scoop. Get the gardener. Given this the industry overview. Certainly multi clouds, very relevant. And cloud native networking is the hot trend with live stream out there in the digital events of guys. Let's get into it. The journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and soon going to be a lot more coming. So I want to get into the journey. What's it been like? Is it really got a lot of scar tissue? Uh, what is some of the learnings >>Yeah, absolutely. So multi Cloud is whether or not we accepted as network engineers is a reality. Um, like Steve said about two years ago, companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and move there. Whether or not whether or not we accept that fact, we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging, um, without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds. So that's it's it's really important to start thinking about that. You >>guys are on the other Panelists here this different phases of this journey. Some come at it from a networking perspective. Some comment from a problem. Troubleshooting. Which What's your experiences? >>Yeah, so, uh, from a networking perspective, it's been incredibly exciting. It's kind of a once in a generational opportunity to look at how you're building out your network. You can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years. But it just never really worked on Prem, so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have And then all the interesting challenges that come up that you, uh, that you get to tackle >>and in fact said, you guys are mostly aws, right? >>Right now, though, where we are looking at multiple clouds, we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today. But a lot of the initial work has been with them, >>and you see it from a networking perspective. That's where you guys are coming at it from. Yep. Yeah. So >>we evolved more from a customer requirement. Perspective started out primarily is AWS. But as the customer needed mawr resources manager like HPC, you know, Azure A D. Things like that. Even recently, Google do analytics. Our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment. >>Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation. I want you to lead this sector. >>Yeah, so I mean, I think you guys agreed that journey. It seems like the journey started a couple of years ago got real serious. The need for multi cloud, whether you're there today. Of course it's going to be there in the future, so that's really important. I think the next thing is just architecture. I love to hear what you you had some comments about architecture matters. It all starts. I mean, every enterprise I talked to maybe talk about architecture in the importance of architecture. Maybe Bobby >>is from architectural perspective. We started our journey five years ago. Wow. Okay. And we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect. Okay? And we call it networking security. Net sec versus just network on that. Fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto networks and aviatrix aviatrix doing the orchestration piece of it. But that journey came because of the need for simplicity, the need for a multi cloud orchestration without having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along. >>Right? I guess. The other question, I I also had around architectures also, Louise, maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about scripting right and some of your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so for us, we started, We started creating Ah, the network constructs with cloud formation. And we've stuck with that, for the most part. What's interesting about that is today on premise, we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks, but confirmation has become a little bit like the new manual for us. So we're now having issues with having the automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture, making it consistent with azure architecture and Google Cloud. So it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD Wan brought to the to the wan side. Now it's going up into into the cloud networking architectures, >>right? So on the fourth generation of you mentioned, you're 1/4 gen architecture. What do you guys? What have you learned? Is there any lessons? Scar tissue, what to avoid? What worked? What was some of the >>one of the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out, you haven't right? Amazon will change something as you change something, you know, transit gateway, the game changer eso uh, and listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front. But I think from a simplicity perspective, we said We don't want to do things four times. We want two things. One time we want to have a right to an AP I, which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times. How >>important is architecture in the progression, is it? You guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it. I mean, how are you guys looking at the architecture? >>I mean, you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there. So all of those things we've gone through similar evolutions. We're on our fourth or fifth evolution. Uh, I think about what We started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway without a transit gateway without ah, a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80 20 that Steve was talking about. Just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it, so we >>needed to figure out a way to do it. We >>couldn't say. You need to come back to the network team in a year. Maybe Amazon will have a solution for you. We need to do it now and evolve later and maybe optimize or change. Really, you're doing things in the future, But don't sit around and wait. You can't. >>I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the livestream that comes up a lot. A lot of cloud architects out in the community. What should they be thinking about? The folks that are coming into this proactively and are realizing the business benefits are there? What advice would you guys give them? An architecture, which should be they be thinking about and what some guiding principles you could share. >>So I would start with, ah, looking at an architectural model that that can, that can spread and and give consistency the different two different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support. Um, cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native tool set, and that's good. If only it was realistic, too. Talk about only one cloud, but because it doesn't, it's it's, um, it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model. >>How do I do my day one work so that I'm not spending 80% of my time troubleshooting or managing my network. Because if I'm doing that, then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements to embrace new technologies. So it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on. >>Bobby. Your advice? The architect. I >>don't know what else I can add to. That simplicity of operations is gives key. >>Alright, so the holistic view of Day two operation you mentioned let's could jump in. Day one is you're getting stuff set up. Day two is your life after. This is what you're getting at, David. So what does that look like? What are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stare out post multi cloud world one of the things that you want in a day to operations? >>Yeah, infrastructure as code is really important to us. So how do we How do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and putting them into like, a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router cli and troubleshooting things on an ad hoc nature. So moving more towards the Devil Ops model. >>Here's the thing I had on that day two. >>Yeah, I would. I would love to add something. So in terms of day two operations, you can you can either sort of ignore the day two operations for a little while where you get well, you get your feet wet, um, or you can start approaching it from the beginning. The fact is that the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space. And when you run into an issue, you're gonna end up having a bad day, going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on. So that's something that the industry just now is beginning to realize. It's It's such a such a big gap. >>I think that's key, because for us, we're moving to more of an event driven or operations. In the past. Monitoring got the job done. It is impossible to modern monitor something that's not there when the event happens, right, so the event driven application and then detection is important. >>I think Gardner is about the Cloud Native wave coming into networking. That's going to be a serious thing. I want to get you guys perspective. I know you have different views of how you came into the journey and how you're executing. And I always say the beauty's in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies the networks laid out. So, Bobby, you guys do a lot of high performance encryption both on AWS and Azure. That's kind of a unique thing for you. How are you seeing that impact with multi cloud? >>And that's a new requirement for us to where we, uh we have a requirement to encrypt, and they never get the question Should encryption and encrypt. The answer is always yes, you should encrypt. You should get encrypt for perspective. We we need to moderate a bunch of data from our data centers. We have some huge data centers on. Getting that data to the cloud is is timely experiencing some cases, So we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything, leaving the data center. So we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to decrypt you know 10 20 gigabytes of data as it moves to the cloud itself. David, you're using >>terra form. You've got fire net. You've got a lot of complexity in your network. What do you guys look at the future for your environment? >>Yes. So something exciting that we're working on now is fire net. So for our security team, they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge based around Polito on with our commitments to our clients, you know, it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor it So there's a lot of stock to compliance and things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Prem and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things were gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on Prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier. >>And you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on. What's your what's your unique angle on this? >>Um, yeah. No, absolutely so full disclosure. I'm not not not an aviatrix customer yet. >>It's okay. We want to hear the truth. So that's good. Tell >>us what you're thinking about. What's on your mind. >>No, really, Um, when you when you talk about, um, implementing the to like this, it's It's really just really important. Teoh talk about automation and focus on on value. So when you talk about things like encryption and thinks like so you're encrypting tunnels and encrypting the path and those things are, should it should should be second nature, Really? When you when you look at building those back ends and managing them with your team, it becomes really painful. So tools like aviatrix that that had a lot of automation. It's out of out of sight, out of mind. You can focus on the value you don't have to focus on. >>I got to ask, You guys are seeing the traces here. They're their supplier to the sector, but you guys are customers. Everyone's pitching your stuff that people are not going to buy my stuff. How >>do you >>guys have that conversation with the suppliers, like the cloud vendors and other folks? What's the What's the leg or a P? I all the way you got to support this. What are some >>of the >>what are some of your requirements? How do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want Teoh knock on your door and pitch you something? What's the conversation like? >>It's definitely It's definitely a p. I driven. Um, we we definitely look at the at the structure of the vendors provide before we select anything. Um, that that is always first of mine. And also, what problem are we really trying to solve? Usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable. Like implementing Cisco solution on the on the cloud isn't really doesn't really add a lot of value. >>David, what's your conversations like with suppliers? So you have a certain new way to do things as becomes more agile, essentially networking and more dynamic. What are some of the conversations with the other incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what you require? >>So ease of use is definitely, definitely high up there. We've had some vendors come in and say, Hey, you know, when you go to set this up, we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're going to sit with you for a day to configure. And that's kind of a red flag. Wait a minute. You know, we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own, what's going on there and why is that? So, uh, you know, having having some ease of use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important. >>How about you in the old days was Do a bake off winner takes all. I mean, is it like that anymore? What's evolving Bake off >>last year for us to win, So But that's different now, because now when you when you get the product, you install the product in AWS in azure or have it up and running a matter of minutes. And the key is, can you be operational within hours or days instead of weeks? But we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs, because you want to be. You would be put into a box with the other customers who have needs that pastor cut their needs. >>You can almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value, how you can roll a penny solutions. But then you have might have other needs. So you got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping. So you're trying to be proactive in the same time. Deal with what you got here. How do you guys see that evolving? Because multi cloud to me is definitely relevant. But it's not yet clear how to implement across. How do you guys look at this? Bakes versus, you know, future solutions coming? How do you balance that? >>Um, so again. So right now we were. We're taking the the ad hoc approach and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud on demand, really leveraging the native constructs of each cloud. But but there's there's a breaking point. For sure you don't you don't get to scale this like like Simone said, and you have to focus on being able to deliver Ah, developer their their sandbox play area for the things that they're trying to build quickly. And the only way to do that is with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to. >>So you spent a lot more stuff becoming pretty quickly. >>I was very. I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year, >>and you guys see similar trends. New stuff coming fast. >>Yeah, the one of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network, being able to provide segmentation between production, non production workloads, even businesses, because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there. So the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key. >>So the cios that are watching are saying, Hey, take that hill, do multi cloud and then the bottoms up organization cause you're kind of like off a little bit. It's not how it works. I mean, what is the reality in terms of implementing, you know, and as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear, but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast. What are some of the barriers of blockers? One of the enabler, >>I think the reality is, is that you may not think of multi cloud, but your businesses, right? So I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements. I think in a secure manner, because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective, that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that, you know, if the Tier three application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud, so lift and shift is not the way to go. >>Scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage of all of these clouds, and it used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came. That was a good thing. But as clouds become bigger, there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale. How do you guys keep the choice open? How you guys thinking about interoperability? What is some of the conversations that you guys were having around those key concepts? >>Well, when we look at when we look at the from a networking perspective, it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be able to communicate between them. Developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their business. Um and and like Like you said, it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that your company is in already, Um, that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly. >>Yeah, and the A lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing? So are they swimming with Amazon or azure and just helping facilitate things? They're doing the heavy lifting AP I work for you or are they swimming upstream? And they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way, and so that helps you stay out of the lock in, because there, you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be, it's not like Amazon's going to release something in the future that completely, uh, you know, makes you have designed yourself into a corner. So the closer they're more cloud native, they are, the more, uh, the easier it is to, uh >>to the boy. But you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of the cloud Native technology of limits sets. T J W. Is a game changer in terms of cost and performance. Right. So to completely ignore, that would be wrong. But, you know, if you needed to have encryption teaching double encrypted, so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption. So the aviatrix, too, will give you the beauty of both worlds. You can use T. W or the gateway real >>quick in the last minute we have. I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys. I hear a lot of people say to me, Hey, the pick The best cloud for the workload you got, then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes. So that seems to be Do you guys agree with that? I mean, is it doing one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS. That work was great on this from a cloud standpoint. Do you agree with that premise? And then what is multi cloud stitch them all together? >>Yeah, um, from from an application perspective, it it can be per workload, but It can also be an economical decision. Certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that value. Um, but the the network problem is still the same. >>It doesn't go away. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hole, right? So if it works better on that cloud provider, then it's our job to make sure that that service is there. People can use >>it. Yeah, I agree. You just need to stay ahead of the game. Make sure that the network infrastructure is there. Secure is available and is multi cloud capable. >>Yeah. At the end of the day, you guys just validating that. It's the networking game now. Cloud storage. Compute Check. Networking is where the action is. Awesome. Thanks for your insights. Appreciate you coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(upbeat music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Welcome everyone to this special CUBE Conversation Around the CUBE segment, Unpacking AI, number two, sponsored by Juniper Networks. We've got a great lineup here to go around the CUBE and unpack AI. We have Ken Jennings, all-time Jeopardy champion with us. Celebrity, great story there, we'll dig into that. John Hinson, director of AI at Evotek and Charna Parkey, who's the applied scientist at Textio. Thanks for joining us here for Around the CUBE Unpacking AI, appreciate it. First question I want to get to, Ken, you're notable for being beaten by a machine on Jeopardy. Everyone knows that story, but it really brings out the question of AI and the role AI is playing in society around obsolescence. We've been hearing gloom and doom around AI replacing people's jobs, and it's not really that way. What's your take on AI and replacing people's jobs? >> You know, I'm not an economist, so I can't speak to how easy it's going to be to retrain and re-skill tens of millions of people once these clerical and food prep and driving and whatever jobs go away, but I can definitely speak to the personal feeling of being in that situation, kind of watching the machine take your job on the assembly line and realizing that the thing you thought made you special no longer exists. If IBM throws enough money at it, your skill essentially is now obsolete. And it was kind of a disconcerting feeling. I think that what people need is to feel like they matter, and that went away for me very quickly when I realized that a black rectangle can now beat me at a game show. >> Okay John, what's your take on AI replacing jobs? What's your view on this? >> I think, look, we're all going to have to adapt. There's a lot of changes coming. There's changes coming socially, economically, politically. I think it's a disservice to us all to get to too indulgent around the idea that these things are going to change. We have to absorb these things, we have to be really smart about how we approach them. We have to be very open-minded about how these things are going to actually change us all. But ultimately, I think it's going to be positive at the end of the day. It's definitely going to be a little rough for a couple of years as we make all these adjustments, but I think what AI brings to the table is heads above kind of where we are today. >> Charna, your take around this, because the role of humans versus machines are pretty significant, they help each other. But is AI going to dominate over humans? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a thing that we see over and over again in every bubble and collapse where, you know, in the automotive industry we certainly saw a bunch of jobs were lost, but a bunch of jobs were gained. And so we're just now actually getting into the phase where people are realizing that AI isn't just replacement, it has to be augmentation, right? We can't simply use images to replace recognition of people, we can't just use black box to give our FICO credit scores, it has to be inspectable. So there's a new field coming up now called explainable AI that actually is where we're moving towards and it's actually going to help society and create jobs. >> All right so let's stay on that next point for the next round, explainable AI. This points to a golden age. There's a debate around are we in a bubble or a golden age. A lot of people are negative right now on tech. You can see all the tech backlash. Amazon, the big tech companies like Apple and Facebook, there's a huge backlash around this so-called tech for society. Is this an indicator of a golden age coming? >> I think so, absolutely. We can take two examples of this. One would be where, you remember when Amazon built a hiring algorithm based upon their own resume data and they found that it was discriminating against women because they had only had men apply for it. Now with Textio we're building augmented writing across the audience and not from a single company and so companies like Johnson and Johnson are increasing the pipeline by more than nine percent which converts to 90,000 more women applying for their jobs. And so part of the difference there is one is explainable, one isn't, and one is using the right data set representing the audience that is consuming it and not a single company's hiring. So I think we're absolutely headed into more of a golden age, and I think these are some of the signs that people are starting to use it in the right way. >> John, what's your take? Obviously golden age doesn't look that to us right now. You see Facebook approving lies as ads, Twitter banning political ads. AI was supposed to solve all these problems. Is there light at the end of this dark tunnel we're on? >> Yeah, golden age for sure. I'm definitely a big believer in that. I think there's a new era amongst us on how we handle data in general. I think the most important thing we have here though is education around what this stuff is, how it works, how it's affecting our lives individually and at the corporate level. This is a new era of informing and augmenting literally everything we do. I see nothing but positives coming out of this. We have to be obviously very careful with our approaching all the biases that already exist today that are only going to be magnified with these types of algorithms at mass scale. But ultimately if we can get over that hurdle, which I believe collectively we all need to do together, I think we'd live in much better, less wasteful world just by approaching the data that's already at hand. >> Ken, what's your take on this? It's like a daily double question. Is it going to be a golden age? >> Laughs >> It's going to come sooner or later. We have to have catastrophe before, we have to have reality hit us in the face before we realize that tech is good, and shaping it? It's pretty ugly right now in some of the situations out there, especially in the political scene with the election in the US. You're seeing some negative things happening. What's your take on this? >> I'm much more skeptical than John and Charna. I feel like that kind of just blinkered, it's going to be great, is something you have to actually be in the tech industry and hearing all day to actually believe. I remember seeing kind of lay-person's exposure to Watson when Watson was on Jeopardy and hearing the questions reporters would ask and seeing the memes that would appear, and everyone's immediate reaction just to something as innocuous as a AI algorithm playing on a game show was to ask, is this Skynet from Terminator 2? Is this the computer from The Matrix? Is this HAL pushing us out of the airlock? Everybody immediately first goes to the tech is going to kill us. That's like everybody's first reaction, and it's weird. I don't know, you might say it's just because Hollywood has trained us to expect that plot development, but I almost think it's the other way around. Like that's a story we tell because we're deeply worried about our own meaning and obsolescence when we see how little these skills might be valued in 10, 20, 30 years. >> I can't tell you how much, by the way, Star Trek, Star Wars and Terminators probably affected the nomenclature of the technology. Everyone references Skynet. Oh my God, we're going to be taken over and killed by aliens and machines. This is a real fear. I thinks it's an initial reaction. You felt that Ken, so I've got to ask you, where do you think the crossover point is for people to internalize the benefits of say, AI for instance? Because people will say hey, look back at life before the iPhone, look at life before these tools were out there. Some will say society's gotten better, but yet there's this surveillance culture, things... And on and on. So what do you guys think the crossover point is for the reaction to change from oh my God, it's Skynet, gloom and doom to this actually could be good? >> It's incredibly tricky because as we've seen, the perception of AI both in and out of the industry changes as AI advances. As soon as machine learning can actually do a task, there's a tendency to say there's this no true Scotsman problem where we say well, that clearly can't be AI because I see how the trick worked. And yeah, humans lose at chess now. So when these small advances happen, the reaction is often oh, that's not really AI. And by the same token, it's not a game-changer when your email client can start to auto-complete your emails. That's a minor convenience to you. But you don't think oh, maybe Skynet is good. I really do think it's going to have to be, maybe the inflection point is when it starts to become so disruptive that actually public policy has to change. So we get serious about >> And public policy has started changing. >> whatever their reactions are. >> Charna, your thoughts. >> The public policy has started changing though. We just saw, I think it was in September, where California banned the use of AI in the body cameras, both real-time and after the fact. So I think that's part of the pivot point that we're actually seeing is that public policy is changing.` The state of Washington currently has a task force for AI who's making a set of recommendations for policy starting in December. But I think part of what we're missing is that we don't have enough digital natives in office to even attempt to, to your point Ken, predict what we're even going to be able to do with it, right? There is this fear because of misunderstanding, but we also don't have a respect of our political climate right now by a lot of our digital natives, and they need to be there to be making this policy. >> John, weigh in on this because you're director of AI, you're seeing positive, you have to deal with the uncertainty as well, the growth of machine learning. And just this week Google announced more TensorFlow for everybody. You're seeing Open Source. So there's a tech push, almost a democratization, going on with AI. So I think this crossover point might be sooner in front of us than people think. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah it's here right now. All these things can be essentially put into an environment. You can see these into products, or making business decisions or political decisions. These are all available right now. They're available today and its within 10 to 15 lines of code. It's all about the data sets, so you have to be really good stewards of the data that you're using to train your models. But I think the most important thing, back to the Skynet and all this science-fiction side, we have to collectively start telling the right stories. We need better stories than just this robots are going to take us over and destroy all of our jobs. I think more interesting stories really revolve around, what about public defenders who can have this informant augmentation algorithm that's going to help them get their job done? What about tailor-made medicine that's going to tell me exactly what the conditions are based off of a particular treatment plan instead of guessing? What about tailored education that's going to look at all of my strengths and weaknesses and present a plan for me? These are things that AI can do. Charna's exactly right, where if we don't get this into the right political atmosphere that's helping balance the capitalist side with the social side, we're going to be in trouble. So that's got to be embedded in every layer of enterprise as well as society in general. It's here, it's now, and it's real. >> Ken, before we move on to the ethics question, I want to get your thoughts on this because we have an Alexa at home. We had an Alexa at home; my wife made me get rid of it. We had an Apple device, what they're called... the Home pods, that's gone. I bought a Portal from Facebook because I always buy the earliest stuff, that's gone. We don't want listening devices in our house because in order to get that AI, you have to give up listening, and this has been an issue. What do you have to give to get? This has been a big question. What's your thoughts on all this? >> I was at an Amazon event where they were trumpeting how no technology had ever caught on faster than these personal digital assistants, and yet every time I'm in a use case, a household that's trying to use them, something goes terribly wrong. My friend had to rename his because the neighbor kids kept telling Alexa to do awful things. He renamed it computer, and now every time we use the word computer, the wall tells us something we don't want to know. >> (laughs) >> This is just anecdata, but maybe it speaks to something deeper, the fact that we don't necessarily like the feeling of being surveilled. IBM was always trying to push Watson as the star Trek computer that helpfully tells you exactly what you need to know in the right moment, but that's got downsides too. I feel like we're going to, if nothing else, we may start to value individual learning and knowledge less when we feel like a voice from the ceiling can deliver unto us the fact that we need. I think decision-making might suffer in that kind of a world. >> All right, this brings up ethics because I bring up the Amazon and the voice stuff because this is the new interface people want to have with machines. I didn't mention phones, Androids and Apple, they need to listen in order to make decisions. This brings up the ethics question around who sets the laws, what society should do about this, because we want the benefits of AI. John, you point out some of them. You got to give to get. Where are we on ethics? What's the opinion, what's the current view on this? John, we'll start with you on your ethics view on what needs to change now to move the ball faster. >> Data is gold. Data is gold at an exponential rate when you're talking about AI. There should be no situation where these companies get to collect data at no cost or no benefit to the end consumer. So ultimately we should have the option to opt out of any of these products and any of this type of surveillance wherever we can. Public safety is a little bit different situation, but on the commercial side, there is a lot of more expensive and even more difficult ways to train these models with a data set that isn't just basically grabbing everything our of your personal lives. I think that should be an option for consumers and that's one of those ethical check-marks. Again, ethics in general, the way that data's trained, the way that data's handled, the way models actually work, it has to be a primary reason for and approach of how you actually go about developing and delivering AI. That said, we cannot get over-indulgent in the fact that we can't do it because we're so fearful of the ethical outcomes. We have to find some middle ground and we have to find it quickly and collectively. >> Charna, what's your take on this? Ethics is super important to set the agenda for society to take advantage of all this. >> Yeah. I think we've got three ethical components here. We certainly have, as John mentioned, the data sets. However, it's also what behavior we're trying to change. So I believe the industry could benefit from a lot more behavioral science, so that we can understand whether or not the algorithms that we're building are changing behaviors that we actually want to change, right? And if we aren't, that's unethical. There is an entire field of ethics that needs to start getting put into our companies. We need an ethics board internally. A few companies are doing this already actually. I know a lot of the military companies do. I used to be in the defense industry, and so they've got a board of ethics before you can do things. The challenge is also though that as we're democratizing the algorithms themselves, people don't understand that you can't just get a set of data that represents the population. So this is true of image processing, where if we only used 100 images of a black woman, and we used 1,000 images of a white man because that was the distribution in our population, and then the algorithm could not detect the difference between skin tones for people of color, then we end up with situations where we end up in a police state where you put in an image of one black woman and it looks like ten of them and you can't distinguish between them. And yet, the confidence rate for the humans are actually higher, because they now have a machine backing their decision. And so they stop questioning, to your point, Ken, about what is the decision I'm making, they're like I'm so confident, this data told me so. And so there's a little bit of you need some expert in the loop and you also can't just have experts, because then you end up with Cambridge Analytica and all of the political things that happened there, not just in the US, but across 200 different elections and 30 different countries. And we are upset because it happened in the US, but this has been happening for years. So its just this ethical challenge of behavior change. It's not even AI and we do it all the time. Its why the cigarette industry is regulated (laughs). >> So Ken, what's your take on this? Obviously because society needs to have ethics. Who runs that? Companies? The law-makers? Someone's got to be responsible. >> I'm honestly a little pessimistic the general public will even demand this the way we're maybe hoping that they will. When I think about an example like Facebook, people just being able to, being willing to give away insane amounts of data through social media companies for the smallest of benefits: keeping in touch with people from high school they don't like. I mean, it really shows how little we value not being a product in this kind of situation. But I would like to see this kind of ethical decisions being made at the company-level. I feel like Google kind of surreptitiously moved away from it's little don't be evil mantra with the subtext that eh, maybe we'll be a little evil now. It just reminds me of Manhattan Project era thinking, where you could've gone to any of these nuclear scientists and said you're working on a real interesting puzzle here, it might advance the field, but like 200,000 civilians might die this summer. And I feel like they would've just looked at you and thought that's not really my bailiwick. I'm just trying to solve the fission problem. I would like to see these 10 companies actually having that kind of thinking internally. Not being so busy thinking if they can do something that they don't wonder if they should. >> That's a great point. This brings up the point of who is responsible. Almost as if who is less evil than the other person? Google, they don't do evil, but they're less evil than Amazon and Facebook and others. Who is responsible? The companies or the law-makers? Because if you look up some of the hearings in Washington, D.C., some of the law-makers we see up there, they don't know how the internet works, and it's pretty obvious that this is a problem. >> Yeah, well that's why Jack Dorsey of Twitter posted yesterday that he banned not just political ads, but also issue ads. This isn't something that they're making him do, but he understands that when you're using AI to target people, that it's not okay. At some point, while Mark is sitting on (laughs) this committee and giving his testimony, he's essentially asking to be regulated because he can't regulate himself. He's like well, everyone's doing it, so I'm going to do it too. That's not an okay excuse. We see this in the labor market though actually, where there's existing laws that prevent discrimination. It's actually the company's responsibility to make sure that the products that they purchase from any vendor isn't introducing discrimination into that process. So its not even the vendor that's held responsible, it's the company and their use of it. We saw in the NYPD actually that one of those image recognition systems came up and someone said well, he looked like, I forget the name of what the actor was, but some actor's name is what the perpetrator looked like and so they used an image of the actor to try and find the person who actually assaulted someone else. And that's, it's also the user problem that I'm super concerned about. >> So John, what's your take on this? Because these are companies are in business to make money, for profit, they're not the government. And who's the role, what should the government do? AI has to move forward. >> Yeah, we're all responsible. The companies are responsible. The companies that we work with, I have yet to interact with customers, or with our customers here, that have some insidious goal, that they're trying to outsmart their customers. They're not. Everyone's looking to do the best and deliver the most relevant products in the marketplace. The government, they absolutely... The political structure we have, it has to be really intelligent and it's got to get up-skilled in this space and it needs to do it quickly, both at the economy level, as well as for our defense. But the individuals, all of us as individuals, we are already subjected to this type of artificial intelligence in our everyday lives. Look at streaming, streaming media. Right now every single one of us goes out through a streaming source, and we're getting recommendations on what we should watch next. And we're already adapting to these things, I am. I'm like stop showing me all the stuff you know I want to watch, that's not interesting to me. I want to find something I don't know I want to watch, right? So we all have to get educated, we're all responsible for these things. And again, I see a much more positive side of this. I'm not trying to get into the fear-mongering side of all the things that could go wrong, I want to focus on the good stories, the positive stories. If I'm in a courtroom and I lose a court case because I couldn't afford the best attorney and I have the bias of a judge, I would certainly like artificial intelligence to make a determination that allows me to drive an appeal, as one example. Things like that are really creative in the world that we need to do. Tampering down this wild speculation we have on the markets. I mean, we are all victims of really bad data decisions right now, almost the worst data decisions. For me, I see this as a way to actually improve all those things. Fraud fees will be reduced. That helps everybody, right? Less speculation and these wild swings, these are all helpful things. >> Well Ken, John and Charna, thank- (audio feedback) >> Go ahead, finish. Get that word in. >> Sorry. I think that point you were making though John, is we are still a capitalist society, but we're no longer a shareholder capitalist society, we are a stakeholder capitalist society and the stakeholder is the society itself. It is us, it what we want to see. And so yes, I still want money. Obviously there are things that I want to buy, but I also care about well-being. I think it's that little shift that we're seeing that is actually you and I holding our own teams accountable for what they do. >> Yeah, culture first is a whole new shift going on in these companies that's a for-profit, mission-based. Ken, John, Charna, thanks for coming on Around the CUBE, Unpacking AI. Let's go around the CUBE Ken, John and Charna in that order, and just real quickly, unpacking AI, what's your final word? >> (laughs) I really... I'm interested in John's take that there's a democratization coming provided these tools will be available to everyone. I would certainly love to believe that. It seems like in the past, we've seen no, that access to these kind of powerful, paradigm-changing tools tend to be concentrated among a very small group of people and the benefits accrue to a very small group of people. But I hope that doesn't happen here. You know, I'm optimistic as well. I like the utopian side where we all have this amazing access to information and so many new problems can get solved with amazing amounts of data that we never could've touched before. Though you know, I think about that. I try to let that help me sleep at night, and not the fact that, you know... every public figure I see on TV is kind of out of touch about technology and only one candidate suggests the universal basic income, and it's kind of a crackpot idea. Those are the kind of things that keep me up at night. >> All right, John, final word. >> I think it's beautiful, AI's beautiful. We're on the cusp of a whole new world, it's nothing but positivity I see. We have to be careful. We're all nervous about it. None of us know how to approach these things, but as human beings, we've been here before. We're here all the time. And I believe that we can all collectively get a better lives for ourselves, for the environment, for everything that's out there. It's here, it's now, it's definitely real. I encourage everyone to hurry up on their own education. Every company, every layer of government to start really embracing these things and start paying attention. It's catching us all a little bit by surprise, but once you see it in production, you see it real, you'll be impressed. >> Okay, Charna, final word. >> I think one thing I want to leave people with is what we incentivize is what we end up optimizing for. This is the same for human behavior. You're training a new employee, you put incentives on the way that they sell, and that's, they game the system. AI's specifically find the optimum route, that is their job. So if we don't understand more complex cost functions, more complex representative ways of training, we're going to end up in a space, before we know it, that we can't get out of. And especially if we're using uninspectable AI. We really need to move towards augmentation. There are some companies that are implementing this now that you may not even know. Zillow, for example, is using AI to give you a cost for your home just by the photos and the words that you describe it, but they're also purchasing houses without a human in the loop in certain markets, based upon an inspection later by a human. And so there are these big bets that we're making within these massive corporations, but if you're going to do it as an individual, take a Coursera class on AI and take a Coursera class on ethics so that you can understand what the pitfalls are going to be, because that cost function is incredibly important. >> Okay, that's a wrap. Looks like we have a winner here. Charna, you got 18, John 16. Ken came in with 12, beaten again! (both laugh) Okay, Ken, seriously, great to have you guys on, a pleasure to meet everyone. Thanks for sharing on Around the CUBE Unpacking AI, panel number two. Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. I've been defeated by artificial intelligence again! (all laugh) (upbeat music)

>> They are disruptive technologies. And if you think about the disruption that's happening in business, with IoT, with OT, and with big data, you can't get anything more disruptive to the whole of the business chain as this particular area. It's an area that I focused on myself, asking the question, should everything go to the cloud? Is that the new future? Is 90% of the computing going to go to the cloud with just little mobile devices right on the edge? Felt wrong when I did the math on it, I did some examples of real-world environments, wind farms, et cetera, it clearly was not the right answer, things need to be near the edge. And I think one of the areas to me that solidified it was when you looked at an area like video. Huge amounts of data, real important decisions being made on the content of that video, for example, recognizing a face, a white hat or a black hat. If you look at the technology, sending that data somewhere to do that recognition just does not make sense. Where is it going? It's going actually into the camera itself, right next to the data, because that's where you have the raw data, that's where you have the maximum granularity of data, that's where you need to do the processing of which faces are which, right close to the edge itself, and then you can send the other data back up to the cloud, for example, to improve those algorithms within that camera, to do all that sort of work on the batch basis over time, that's what I was looking at, and looking at the cost justification for doing that sort of work. So today, we've got a set people here on the panel, and we want to talk about coming down one level to where IoT and IT are going to have to connect together. So on the panel I've got, I'm going to get these names really wrong, Sanjeev Kumar? >> Yes, that's right. >> From FogHorn, could you introduce yourself and what you're doing where the data is meeting the people and the machines? >> Sure, sure, so my name is Sanjeev Kumar, I actually run engineering for a company called FogHorn Systems, we are actually bringing analytics and machine learning to the edge, and, so our goal and motto is to take computing to where the data is, than the other way around. So it's a two-year-old company that started, was incubated in the hive, and we are in the process of getting our second release of the product out shortly. >> Excellent, so let me start at the other end, Rohan, can you talk about your company and what contribution you're focusing on? >> Sure, I'm head product marketing for Maana, Maana is a startup, about three years old, what we're doing is we're offering an enterprise platform for large enterprises, we're helping the likes of Shell and Maersk and Chevron digitally transform, and that simply means putting the focus on subject matter experts, putting the focus on the people, and data's definitely an important part of it, but allowing them to bring their expertise into the decision flows, so that ultimately the key decisions that are driving the revenue for these behemoths, are made at a higher quality and faster. >> Excellent. Well, two software companies, we have a practitioner here who is actually doing fog computing, doing it for real, has been doing it for some time, so could you like, Janet George from Western Digital, can you introduce yourself, and say something from the trenches, of what's really going on? >> Okay, very good, thank you. I actually build infrastructure for the edge to deal with fog computing, and so for Western Digital, we're very lucky, because we are the largest storage manufacture, and we have what we call Internet of Things, and Internet of Test Equipment, and I process petabytes of data that comes out of the Internet of Things, which is basically our factories, and then I take these petabytes of data, I process them both on the cloud and then on the edge, but primarily, to be able to consume that data. And the way we consume that data is by building very high-profile models through artificial intelligence and machine learning, and I'll talk a lot more about that, but at the end of the day, it's all about consuming the data that you collect from anywhere, Internet of Things, computer equipment, data that's being produced through products, you have to figure out a way to compute that, and the cloud has many advantages and many trade-offs, and so we're going to talk about the trade-offs, that's where the gap for computing comes into play. >> Excellent, thanks very much. And last but not least, we have Val, and I can never pronounce your surname. >> Bercovici. >> Thank you. (chuckling) You are in the midst of a transition yourself, so talk about where you have been and where you're going. >> For the better part of this century, I've been with NetApp, working at various functions, obviously enterprise storage, and around 2008, my developer instinct kind of fired up, and this thing called cloud became very interesting to me. So I became a self-anointed cloud czar at NetApp, and I ended up initiating a lot of our projects which we know today as the NetApp Data Fabric, that culminated about 18 months ago, in acquisition of SolidFire, and I'm now the acting CTO of SolidFire, but I plan to retire from the storage industry at the end of our fiscal year, at the end of April, and I'm spending a lot of time with particularly the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, that is, the opensource home of Google's Kubernetes Technology and about seven other related projects, we keep adding some almost every month, and I'm starting to lose track, and spending a lot of time on the data gravity challenge. It's a challenge in the cloud, it's a particularly new and interesting challenge at the edge, and I look forward to talking about that. >> Okay, and data gravity is absolutely key, isn't it, it's extremely expensive and extremely heavy to move around. >> And the best analogy is workloads are like electricity, they move fairly easily and lightly, data's like water, it's really hard to move, particularly large bodies around. >> Great. I want to start with one question though, just in the problem, the core problem, particularly in established industries, of how do we get change to work? In an IT shop, we have enough problems dealing with operations and development. In the industrial world, we have the IT and the OT, who look at each other with less than pleasure, and mainly disdain. How do we solve the people problem in trying to put together solutions? You must be right in the middle of it, would you like to start with that question? >> Absolutely, so we are 26 years old, probably more than that, but we have very old and new mix of manufacturing equipment, it's a storage industry, and in our storage industry, we are used to doing things a certain way. We have existing data, we have historical data, we have trend data, you can't get rid of what you already have. The goal is to make connectors such that you can move from where you're at to where you're going, and so you have to be able to take care of the shift that is happening in the market, so at the end of the day, if you look at five years from now, it's all going to be machine learning and AI, right? Agent technology's already here, it's proven, we can see, Siri is out here, we can see Alexa, we can see these agent technologies out there, so machine learning is a getting a lot of momentum, deep learning and neural networks, things like that. So we got to be able to look at that data and tap into our data, near realistically, very different, and the way to do that is really making these connections happen, tapping into old versus new. Like for example, if you look at storage, you have file storage, you have block storage, and then you have object storage, right? We've not really tapped into the field of object storage, and the reason is because if you are going to process one trillion objects like Amazon is doing right now with S3, you can't do it with the file system level storage or with the blog system level storage, you have to go to objects. Think Internet of Things. How many trillions of objects are going to come out of these Internet of Things? So one, you have to be positioned from an infrastructure standpoint. Two, you have to be positioned from a use case prototyping perspective, and three, you got to be able to scale that very rapidly, very quickly, and that's how change happens, change does not happen because you ask somebody to change their behavior, change happens when you show value, and people are so eager to get that value out of what you've shown them in real life, that they are so quick to adapt. >> That's an excellent-- >> If I could comment on that as well, which is, we just got through training a bunch of OT guys on our software, and two analogies that actually work very well, one is sort of, the operational people are very familiar with circuit diagrams, and so, and sort of, flow of things through essentially black boxes, you can think of these as something that has a bunch of inputs and has a bunch of outputs. So that's one thing that worked very well. The second thing that works very well is the PLC model, and there are direct analogies between PLC's and analytics, which people on the floor can actually relate to. So if you have software that's basically based on data streams and time, as a first-class citizen, the PLC model again works very well in terms of explaining the new software to the OT people. >> Excellent, okay, would you want to come in on that as well? >> Sure, I think a couple of points to add to what Janet said, I couldn't agree more in terms of the result, I think Maana did a few projects, a few pilots to convince customers of their value, and we typically focus very heavily on operationalizing the output, so we are very focused on making sure that there is some measurable value that comes out of it, and it's not until the end user started seeing that value that they were willing and open to adopt the newer methodologies. A second point to that is, a lot of the more recent techniques available to solve certain challenges, there are deep learning neural nets there's all sorts of sophisticated AI and machine learning algorithms that are out there, a lot of these are very sophisticated in their ability to deliver results, but not necessarily in the transparency of how you got that, and I think that's another thing that Maana's learning, is yes, we have this arsenal of fantastic algorithms to throw at problems, but we try to start with the simplest approach first, we don't unnecessarily try to brute force, because I think an enterprise, they are more than willing to have that transparency in how they're solving something, so if they're able to see how they were able to get to us, how the software was able to get to a certain conclusion, then they are a lot happier with that approach. >> Could you maybe just give one example, a real-world example, make it a little bit real? >> Right, absolutely, so we did a project for a very large organization for collections, they have a lot of outstanding capital locked up and customers not paying, it's a standard problem, you're going to find it in pretty much any industry, and so for that outstanding invoice, what we did was we went ahead and we worked with the subject matter experts, we looked at all the historical accounts receivable data, we took data from a lot of other sources, and we were able to come up with models to predict when certain customers are likely to pay, and when they should be contacted. Ultimately, what we wanted to give the collection agent were a list of customers to call. It was fairly straightforward, of course, the solution was not very, very easy, but at least on a holistic level, it made a lot of sense to us. When we went to the collection agents, many of them actually refused to use that approach, and this is part of change management in some sense, they were so used to doing things their way, they were so used to trying to target the customers with the largest outstanding invoice, or the ones that hadn't paid for the longest amount of time, that it actually took us a while, because initially, what the feedback we got was that your approach is not working, we're not seeing the results. And when we dug into it, it was because it wasn't being used, so that would be one example. >> So again, proof points that you will actually get results from this. >> Absolutely, and the transparency, I think we actually sent some of our engineers to work with the collections agents to help them understand what approach is it that we're taking, and we showed them that this is not magic, we're actually, instead of looking at the final dollar value, we're looking, we're calculating time value lost, so we are coming up with a metric that allows us to incorporate not just the outstanding amount, or the time that they haven't paid for, but a lot of other factors as well. >> Excellent, Val. >> When you asked that question, I immediately went to more of a nontechnical business side of my brain to answer it, so my experience over the years has been particularly during major industry transitions, I'm old enough to remember the mainframe to client server transition, and now client server to virtualization and cloud, and really, sales reps have that well-earned reputation of being coin-operated, though it's remarkable how much you can adjust compensation plans for pretty much anyone, in a capitalist environment, and the IT/OT divide, if you will, is pretty easy to solve from a business perspective when you take someone with an IT supporting the business mentality, and you compensate them on new revenue streams, new business, all of a sudden, the world perspective changes sometimes overnight, or certainly when that contract is signed. That's probably the number one thing you can do from a people perspective, is incent them and motivate them to focus on these new things, the technology is, particularly nowadays is evolving to support them for these new initiatives, but nothing motivates like the right compensation plan. >> Excellent, a great series of different viewpoints. So the second question I have again coming down a bit to this level, is how do we architect a solution? We heard you got to architect it, and you've got less, like this, it seems to me that that's pretty difficult to do ahead of where you're going, that in general, you take smaller steps, one step at a time, you solve one problem, you go on to the next. Am I right in that? If I am, how would you suggest the people go about this decision-making of putting architectures together, and if you think I'm wrong and you have a great new way of doing it, I'd love to hear about it. >> I can take a shorter route. So we have a number of customers that are trying to adopt, are going through a phased way of adopting our technology and products, and so it begins with first gathering of the data, and replaying it back, to build the first level of confidence, in the sense that the product is actually doing what you're expecting it to do. So that's more from monitoring administration standpoint. The second stage is you should begin to capture analytical logic into the project, where it can start doing prediction for you, so you go into, so from operational, you go into a predictive maintenance, predictive maintenance, predictive models standpoint. The third part is prescriptive, where you actually help create a machine learning model, now, it's still in flux in terms of where the model gets created, whether it's on the cloud, in a central fashion, or some sort of a, the right place, the right context in a multi-level hierarchical fog layer, and then, you sort of operationalize that as close to the data again as possible, so you go through this operational to predictive to prescriptive adoption of the technology, and that's how people actually build confidence in terms of adopting something new into, let's say, a manufacturing environment, or things that are pretty expensive, so I give you another example where you have the case of capacitors being built on a assembly line, manufacturing, and so how do you, can you look at data across different stations and manufacturing on a assembly line? And can you predict on the second station that it's going to fail on the eighth one? By that, what you're doing is you are actually reducing the scrap that's coming off of the assembly line. So, that's the kind of usage that you're going to in the second and third stage. >> Host: Excellent. Janet, do you want to go on? >> Yeah, I agree and I have a slightly different point of view also. I think architecture's very difficult, it's like Thomas Edison, he spent a lot of time creating negative knowledge to get to that positive knowledge, and so that's kind of the way it is in the trenches, we spend a lot of time trying to think through, the keyword that comes to mind is abstraction layers, because where we came from, everything was tightly coupled, and tightly coupled, computer and storage are tightly coupled, structured and unstructured data are tightly coupled, they're tightly coupled with the database, schema is tightly coupled, so now we are going into this world of everything being decoupled. In that, multiple things, multiple operating systems should be able to use your storage. Multiple models should be able to use your data. You cannot structure your data in any kind of way that is customized to one particular model. Many models have to run on that data on the fly, retrain itself, and then run again, so when you think about that, you think about what suits best to stay in the cloud, maybe large amounts of training data, schema that's already processed can stay on the cloud. Schema that is very dynamic, schema that is on the fly, that you need to read, and data that's coming at you from the Internet of Things that's changing, I call it heteroscedastic data, which is very statistical in nature, and highly variable in nature, you don't have time to sit there and create rows and columns and structure this data and put it into some sort of a structured set, you need to have a data lake, you need to have a stack on top of that data lake that can then adapt, create metadata, process that data and make it available for your models, so, and then over time, like I totally believe that now we're running into near realtime compute bottleneck, processing all this pattern processing for the different models and training sets, so we need a stack that we can quickly replace with GPUs, which is where the future is going, with pattern processing and machine learning, so your architecture has to be extremely flexible, high layers of abstraction, ability to train and grow and iterate. >> Excellent. Do you want to go next? >> So I'll be a broken record, back to data gravity, I think in an edge context, you really got to look at the cost of processing data is orders of magnitude less than moving it or even storing it, and so I think that the real urgency, I don't know, there's 90% that think of data at the edge is kind of wasted, you can filter through it and find that signal through the noise, so processing data to make sure that you're dealing with really good data at the edge first, figuring out what's worth retaining for future steps, I love the manufacturing example, I have lots of customer examples ourselves where, for quality control in a high-moving assembly line, you want to take thousands of not millions of images and compare frame and frame exactly according to the schematics where the device is compared to where it should be, or where the components, and the device compared to where they should be, processing all of that data locally and making sure you extract the maximum value before you move data to a central data lake to correlate it against other anomalies or other similarities, that's really key, so really focus on that cost of moving and storing data, yeah. >> Yes, do you want the last word? >> Sure, Maana takes an interesting approach, I'm going to up-level a little bit. Whenever we are faced with a customer or a particular problem for a customer, we try to go over the question-answer approach, so we start with taking a very specific business question, we don't look at what data sources are available, we don't ask them whether they have a data lake, or we literally get their business leaders, their subject matter experts, we literally lock them up in a room and we say, "You have to define "a very specific problem statement "from which we start working backwards," each problem statement can be then broken down into questions, and what we believe is any question can be answered by a series of models, you talked about models, we go beyond just data models, we believe anything in the real world, in the case of, let's say, manufacturing, since we're talking about it, any smallest component of a machine should be represented in the form of a concept, relationships between people operating that machinery should be represented in the form of models, and even physics equations that are going into predicting behavior should be able to represent in the form of a model, so ultimately, what that allows us is that granularity, that abstraction that you were talking about, that it shouldn't matter what the data source is, any model should be able to plug into any data source, or any more sophisticated bigger model, I'll give you an example of that, we started solving a problem of predictive maintenance for a very large customer, and while we were solving that predictive maintenance problem, we came up with a number of models to go ahead and solve that problem. We soon realized that within that enterprise, there are several related problems, for example, replacement of part inventory management, so now that you figured out which machine is going to fail at roughly what instance of time from now, we can also figure out what parts are likely to fail, so now you don't have to go ahead and order a ton of replacement parts, because you know what parts are going to likely fail, and then you can take that a step further by figuring out which equipment engineer has the skillset to go ahead and solve that particular issue. Now, all of that, in today's world, is somewhat happening in some companies, but it is actually a series of point solutions that are not talking to each other, that's where our pattern technology graph is coming into play where each and every model is actually a note on the graph including computational models, so once you build 10 models to solve that first problem, you can reuse some of them to solve the second and third, so it's a time-to-value advantage. >> Well, you've been a fantastic panel, I think these guys would like to get to a drink at the bar, and there's an opportunity to talk to you people, I think this conversation could go on for a long, long time, there's so much to learn and so much to share in this particular information. So with that, over to you! >> I'll just wrap it up real quick, thanks everyone, give the panel a hand, great job. Thanks for coming out, we have drinks for the next hour or two here, so feel free to network and mingle, great questions to ask them privately one-on-one, or just have a great conversation, and thanks for coming, we really appreciate it, for our Big Data SV Event livestreamed out, it'll be on demand on YouTube.com/siliconangle, all the video, if you want to go back, look at the presentations, go to YouTube.com/siliconangle, and of course, siliconangle.com, and Wikibond.com for the research and content coverage, so thanks for coming, one more time, big round of applause for the panel, enjoy your evening, thanks so much.

(lighthearted music) >> We're here now with Manoj Nair, who's the general manager of Metallic and Dave Totten CTO with Microsoft. And we're going to talk about some of the announcements that we heard earlier today and what Metallic and Microsoft are doing to meet customer needs around cyber threats and ensuring secure cloud data management. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thanks Dave. >> Thank you. >> Hey Manoj, let me start with you. We heard early this morning, Dave Totten was here, David Noe, talk a lot about security. Has the conversation changed, how has it changed when you talk to customers, Manoj? What's top of mind. >> Yeah, thank you, Dave. And thank you, Dave Totten. You know, great conversation earlier. Dave, you and I have talked about this in the past, right? Security long a big passion of mine. You know, having lived through nation state attacks in the past and all that. We're seeing those kinds of techniques really just getting mainstream, right? Ransomware has become a mainstream problem in the scourge in our lives. Now, when you look at it from a lens of data and data management, data protection, backup, all of this was very much a passive you know, compliance centric use case. It was pretty static you know, put it in tapes, haul it all over. And what has really changed with this ransomware and cybercrime change rate is data, which is now your most precious asset, is under attack. So now you see security teams, just like you talked with Dave Martin, from ADP earlier, they are looking for that bridge between SecurityOps and ITOps. That data management solution needs to do more. It needs to be part of an active conversation, you know? Not just, you know, recovery readiness. Can you ensure that, are you testing that, is it recoverable? That is your last mile of defense. So then you get questions like that from security teams. You get you know, the need for doing more, signals. Can I get better signals from my data management stack to tell me I might be under attack? So what we're seeing in the conversation is the need to have more active conversations around data management and the bridge between ITOps and SecurityOps is really becoming paramount for our customers. >> Yeah, Dave Totten I mean, I often say that I think data protection used to be this bolt on. Now it's a fundamental component of the digital business stack. Anything you would add to what Manoj just said. >> Yeah, I would just say exactly that. Data is an asset, right? We talked about it a lot about the competitive advantage that customers are now realizing that no longer is IT considered sort of this cost center element. We need to be able to leverage our interactions with customers, with partners, with supply chains, with manufacturers, we need to be able to leverage that to sort of create differentiation and competitive advantage in the marketplace. And so if you think about it, as that way as the fuel for economic profitability and business growth, you would do everything in your power to secure it, to support it, to make sure you had access to it, to make sure that you didn't have you know, bad intent users accessing it. And I think we're seeing that shift with customers as they think more about how to be more efficient with their investments in information technology and then how just to make sure that they protect the lifeblood of their businesses. >> Yeah, and that just makes it harder because the adversary is very capable. They're coming in through the digital supply chain. So it's complicated. And so Dave and maybe Manoj, you can comment as well after, Microsoft and Commvault, you guys have been working together for decades and so you've seen a lot of the changes, a lot of the waves. So I'm curious as to how the partnership has evolved. You've got a recent strategic announcement around Azure with Metallic. Dave, take us through that. >> Yeah, I mean you know, Commvault and Microsoft aren't newlyweds, we've been together now for 25 plus years. We send each other anniversary gifts, all that good stuff. And you know, listen, there's a couple things that are key to our relationship. One, we started believing in each other's engineering organizations, right? We hire the best, we train and retain the best. And we both put a lot of investment behind our infrastructure and the ability to work together to really innovate at real time, rapid speeds. Two, we use Commvault products so you know, there's no greater I think, advantage that if a major supplier or platform partner like Microsoft uses your products. We've used it for years in our Xbox group to support and store the data for a hundred million XBox live users. And we're very avid with it with our data centers, our access to Azure data centers, our Microsoft office products. And so we use Commvault services as well. And through that mutual relationship you know, obviously Commvault has seen the ins and outs of what's great about our services and where we're continuing to build and invest. And so they've been able to really you know, dedicate a team of engineers and architects to support all that Azure as a platform, as a service can provide. And then how to take the best of those features and build it into their own first party products. I think when you get close enough to somebody for so many years right, 25 plus years, you figure out what they're great at and you learn to take those advantages like Commvault has with Microsoft and Azure and use it to your advantage, right? To build the best in class product that Metallic actually is. And you're right, the announcement this week it feels culminating, it feels like it's a major milestone in first off, industry innovation but also in our relationship. But it's really not that big of a step change from what we've been doing and building and innovating on for the past you know, 25 years. >> Yeah so Manoj, that's got to be music to your ears. Because you come at it with this rich data protection stack, Microsoft there's so many capabilities. One of the courses, which is Azure. It's like the secret weapon, it's become the secret weapon. How do you think about that relationship, Manoj? >> Absolutely Dave said it right. We are strong partners, 25 years, founding in Western Commvault, mutual customers, partnership. You know, really when you look at it from a customer lens, what our customers have appreciated, over the last year of that strengthening of that partnership basically the two pillars of Commvault the leader of data protection, or you know, for the last 25 years, 10 out of 10 in the Gartner MQ comes together with Azure, the enterprise secure cloud leader in creating Metallic. Metallic, now with 1,000 plus customers around the world, there's a reason they trust it. It's now become part of how they protect their Office 365. No workload left behind, which is very unique, you know? So what we have architected together and now we're taking it to the next phase, our joint partners, right? Our joint customers, that those are some of the things that are really changing in terms of how we're accelerating the partnership. >> Manoj, you and I have talked about ransomware a lot, we did a special segment a while back on that. The adversary is very capable. And you know, I put in the chat this morning, at Commvault Connections, you don't even need a high school diploma to be a ransomwarist. You can go on the dark web, you can buy ransomware as a service. All you need is access to a server and you can stick you know, some malware on it. So you know, it's very, very dangerous times. What is it about data management as a service that makes it a good fit right now from a customer perspective to solve this problem? >> Absolutely. Bad guys, real life, or in the cyber world, they have some techniques. First thing they do in a ransomware is you go after the exits. What are the exit doors? Now you back up data, they know that that backup data can be used to recover. So they go and try to defeat the backup products in that environment. That's number one game that changes with data management as a service. Your data management data protection environment is not inside your environment. Chances to do two simultaneous penetrations to try and anything is possible. But now you've got an additional layer of recovery readiness because that control plane secured on top of Microsoft, Azure, 3,500 security professionals, FedRAMP high standard only data management and service entity to get it. As one of our customers said, "A unicorn in the wild", that is what you have as your data management environment. So if something bad happens, worst case, this environment is ready. Our enterprise customers are starting to understand that this is becoming a big reason to shift to this model. You know, then it's okay if you're not ready to shift the entire model, you're given the easy button of just air gapping of your data. So if you're an existing Commvault customer, appliance, software, anything, secure air gap Metallic cloud storage on hardened Azure Blob protected jointly by us, start there. And finally things like active directory. Talk about shutting the exit path, right? Take that down, your entire environment is not accessible. We make it easy for you to recover that. And because of our partnership, we're able to get it for free to every one of our customers. Go protect your active directory environment using (speaks faintly) kind of three big reasons that we're seeing that entire conversation shift in the minds of our customers. >> Yeah, thank you for that. That's a no brainer. Dave, how do Metallic and Microsoft fit together? Where's the you know, kind of value chain if you will, when it comes to dealing with cyber protection or ransomware recovery, how are your customers thinking about that? >> Yeah well, first it's a shared responsibility model, right? When you've got the best in class platform like Azure with built in protections, scalable data centers all over the global footprint. But then also we spend 10 plus billion dollars a year in security and defense and our own data center environments, right? And so I always find it inspiring when companies believe that their investments in security and platform protection is going to do the job. That's true, that used to be true. Now with Azure, you can take advantage of this global scale and secure you know, footprint of investment that a company like Microsoft has done to really set your heart at ease. Now, what do you do with your actual applications and who has access to it, and how do you actually integrate like Manoj was talking about down to the individual or the individual account that's trying to get access to your environment? Well, that's where Commvault comes in at that point of attack or at that point of an actual data element. So if you've got that environment within Commvault system backed by the umbrella of the Azure security infrastructure, that's how the two sort of compliment each other. And again, it's about shared responsibility, right? We want every customer that leverages Azure to make sure that they know it's secure, it's protected. We've got a mechanism to protect your best interests. Commvault has that exact same mission statement, right? To make sure that every single element that comes into contact with their products is protected, is secure, is trustworthy. You know, I got a long lesson, long, long time ago, early in my career that says you can goof up a product feature, you can goof up the color scheme on a website but if you lose a customer's data or somebody trust, you never get it back. And so we don't take our relationships with customers very lightly. And I think our committed and joint responsibility to delight and support our customers is what has led to this partnership being so successful over the past couple of decades. >> Great, thank you, Dave. And so Manoj, I was saying earlier that data protection has become a fundamental component of your digital business stack. So that sounds good but what should customers be doing to make data protection and data management, a business value driver versus just a liability or exposure or cost factor that has to be managed? What do you think about that? >> No, and then David added earlier, right? It's no longer a liability. In fact it is you know, someone said data is the new oil, right? It is your crown jewels. You got to to start with thinking about an active data protection strategy, not you know, thinking about passive tools and looking at it in terms of a compliance or I need to keep the data around. So that's the number one part is like, how do I have something that protects all my workloads and everyone has a different pace of transformation. So unless you know, you're a company that just got created, you have environments that are on-prem, on the edge, in CoLOS, public cloud. You got you know, SaaS applications, all of those have a critical data that needs to come together. Look for breadth of data protection, something that doesn't leave your workloads behind. Siloed solutions, create a Swiss cheese that create light for the attackers to go after those gaps. You don't want to look for that, you know? And then finally trust. I mean you know, what are the pillars of trust that the solution is built on? You got to figure out how your teams can get to doing more productive things rather than patching systems. You know, making sure that the infrastructure is up. As Dave said you know, we invest a ton jointly in securing this infrastructure. Trust that and leverage that as a differentiator rather than trying to duplicate all of that. So those are some of the you know, key things. And you know, look for players who understand that hybrid is here, give you different entry points. Don't force you know, the single single mode of operation. Those are the things we have built to make it easier for our customers to have a more active data management strategy. >> Dave, Todd, I'll give you the last word we got to go but I want to hit on this notion of zero trust. It used to be a buzz word now it's mainstream. There's so much that this discussion, is it Prudentialist access? Every access is treated maybe as privileged but what does zero trust mean to you in less than a minute? >> Yeah you know, trust but verify, right? Every interaction you have with your infrastructure, with your data, with your applications and you do it at the identity level. We care about identity and we know that that's the core of how people are going to try and access infrastructure. Used to be protect the perimeter. The analogy I always use is we have locks on our houses. Now the bad guys are everywhere. They're getting inside our houses and they're not immediately taking things, they're hiding in the closet and they're popping out three weeks later before anybody knows it. And so being able to actually manage, measure, protect every interaction you have with your infrastructure and do it at the individual or application level, that's what zero trust is all about. So don't trust any interaction, make sure that you pass that authorization through with every ask. And then make sure you protect it from the inside out. >> Great stuff. Okay guys, we've got to leave it there. Thanks so much for the time today. All right next, right after a short break, we're headed into the CXL Power Panel to hear what's on the minds of the executives as it relates to data management in the digital era. Keep it right there, you're watching theCUBE. (lighthearted music)

>>I want to welcome back to the cubes coverage. We're here at another event in person I'm John furrier, host of the cube. We've got to CNCF coop con cloud native con for in-person 2021. And we're back. It's a hybrid event and we're streaming lives on all channels, as well as all the folks watching a great guest kicking off the show here from the co-chairs from cataract coast. Is that right? Danielle Cook. Who's the vice president at Fairwinds and John Foreman director at Accenture. Thanks for coming on your co-chair. Your third co-chair is not here, but you guys are here to talk about the cloud maturity model. Pretty mature funding is flowing tons of announcements. We're going to have a startup on $200 million. They're announcing in funding and observability of all of all hot spaces. Um, so the maturity is it's the journey in the cloud native space now is crossed over to mainstream. That's the we've been telling that story for a couple of years. Now, you guys have been working on this. Tell us about the cloud maturity model you guys worked on. >>So we got together earlier this year because we, um, four of us had been working on maturity models. So Simon Forester, who is one of the co-chairs, who isn't here, he had worked on a maturity model that looked at your legacy journey, all the way to cloud native, um, myself, I had been part of the Fairwinds team working on the Kubernetes maturity model. So, and then, um, we have Robbie, who's not here. And John Foreman, who we all got together, they had worked on a maturity model and we put it together and I've been working since February to go, what is cloud native maturity and what are the stages you need to go through to achieve maturity. So put this together and now we have this great model that people can use to take them from. I have no idea what cloud native is to the steps they can take to actually be a mature organization. >>And, you know, you've made it when you have a book here. So just hold that up to the camera real quick. So you can see it. It's very much in spirit of the community, but in all seriousness, it book's great, but this is a real need. What was the pain point? What was jumping out at you guys on the problem? Was it just where people like trying to get more cloud native, they want to go move faster. It was a confusing, what were the problems you solve in? >>Well, and if anything is, if we start at the beginning, right, there was during the cloud journey DevSecOps and the Kootenays being a thing that then there's journeys to DevSecOps tributaries as well. But everything is leading to cloud native. It's about the journey to cloud native. So everybody, you know, we're taught to go John, the ecosystem's an eyesore man. If I look at, you know, landscape, >>The whole map I >>Need, it's just like in trend map, it's just so confusing what we do. So every time we go to, I revert the wheel and I get them from zero to hero. So we just put together a model instead that we can re reuse yeah. As a good reference architecture. So from that is a primary, how we built because the native trademark you have with us today. So it's a five scale model from one to five what's twice today, or how to, to, you know, what our job is getting to a five where they could optimize a really rocket rolling. >>You know, it's interesting. I love these inflection points and, you know, being a student of history and the tech business there's moments where things are the new thing, and they're really truly new things like first-time operationalized dev ops. I mean the hardcore dev ops or early adopters we've been doing that, you know, we know that, but now mainstream, like, okay, this is a real disruption in a positive way. So the transformation is happening and it's new, new roles, new, new workflows, new, uh, team formations. So there's a, it's complicated in the sense of getting it up and running so I can see the need. How can you guys share your data on where people are? Because now you have more data coming in, you have more people doing dev ops, more cloud native development, and you mentioned security shepherds shifting left. Where's the data tell you, is it, as you said, people are more like a two or more. What's the, what's the data say? >>So we've had, so part of pulling this model together was your experience at Accenture, helping clients, the Fairwinds, um, experience, helping people manage Kubernetes. And so it's from out dozens of clusters that people have managed going, okay, where are people? And they don't even know where they are. So if we provide the guidelines from them, they can read it and go, oh, I am at about two. So the data is actually anecdotal from our experiences at our different companies. Um, but we, you know, we we've made it so that you can self identify, but we've also recognized that you might be at stage two for one application, but five for another application. So just because you're on this journey, doesn't mean everything is in, >>It's not boiler plate. It's really unique to every enterprise because they everyone's different >>Journey. Put you in journey with these things. A big part of this also torn apart one to five, your clients wants to in denial, you know? So, so Mr. CX level, you are level two. We are not, there's no way we would deal with this stuff for years. You've got to be a five. No, sorry. You're too. >>So >>There's use denial also about this. People think they do a cloud-native director rolling, and I'm looking at what they're doing and go, okay, do you do workups security? And they go, what's that? I go, exactly. So we really need to peel back the onion, start from seed year out and we need to be >>All right. So I want to ask more about the, um, the process and how that relates to the themes are involved. What are some of the themes around the maturity model that you guys can share that you see that people can look at and say, how do I self identify? What's the process will come to expect? >>Well, one of the things we did when we were putting it together was we realized that there were themes coming out amongst the maturity model itself. So we realized there's a whole people layer. There's a whole policy layer process and technology. So this maturity model does not just look at, Hey, this is the tech you need to do. It looks at how you introduce cloud native to your organization. How do you take the people along with it? What policies you need to put in place the process. So we did that first and foremost, but one of the things that was super important to all of us was that security was ever present throughout it. Because as everything is shifting left, you need to be looking at security from day one and considering how it's going to happen and roll out from your developers all the way to your compliance people. Um, it's super important. And one of the themes throughout. >>So, so it would be safe to say, then that security was a catalyst for the maturity models because you gotta be mature. I mean, security, you don't fool around security. >>About the last year when I created the program for, since I worked with Cheryl Holland, from CCF, we put together the community certification, her special program. I saw a need where security was a big gap in communities. Nobody knew anything about it. They wanted to use the old rack and stack ways of doing it. They wanted to use their tray micro tombs from yesteryear, and that doesn't work anymore. You need a new set of tools for Kubernetes. It's the upgrade system. It's different way of doing things. So that knowledge is critical. So I think you're part of this again, on this journey was getting certifications out there for people to understand how to do better. Now, the next phase of that now it's how do we put all these pieces together and built this roadmap? >>Well, it's a great group. You guys have the working groups hard to pronounce the name, but, uh, it's a great effort because one of the things I'm hearing and we've been reporting this one, the Cubans looking angle is the modern software developers want speed, and they don't want to wait for the old slow groups now and security, and it are viewed as blockers and like slow things down. And so you start to see a trend where those groups could provide policy and then start putting, feeding up, uh, data models that allow the developers in real time to do their coding, to shift left and to be efficient and move on and code not be waiting for weeks or days >>Comes to play. So today is the age of Caleb's right now, get up this emerging we're only to have now where everything is code policies, code, securities, code policies, cookie figures, code. That is the place for, and then again, walk a fusion more need for a cargo office. >>Okay. What's your thoughts on that? >>So I think what's really important is enabling service ownership, right? You need the developers to be able to do security, see policy, see it live and make sure that, you know, you're not your configuration, isn't stopping the build or getting into production. So, you know, we made sure that was part of the maturity model. Like you need to be looking continuous scanning throughout checking security checking policy. What is your process? Um, and we, you know, we made that ever present so that the developers are the ones who are making sure that you're getting to Kubernetes, you're getting to cloud native and you're doing it. >>Well, the folks watching, if you don't know the cloud native landscape slide, that ecosystem slide, it's getting bigger and bigger. There's more new things emerging. You see role of software abstractions coming in, automation and AI are coming in. So it makes it very challenging if you want to jump right in lifting and shifting to the clouds, really easy check, been there, done that, but companies want to refactor their applications, not just replatform refactoring means completely taking advantage of these higher level services. So, so it's going to be hard to navigate. So I guess with all that being said, what you guys advice to people who are saying, I need the navigation. I need to have the blueprint. What do I do? How do I get involved? And how do I leverage this? >>We want people to, you can go on to get hub and check out our group and read the maturity model. You can understand it, self identify where you're at, but we want people to get involved as well. So if they're seeing something that like, actually this needs to be adjusted slightly, please join the group. The cardiograph is group. Um, you can also get copies of our book available on the show. So if you, um, if you know, you can read it and it takes you line by line in a really playful way as to where you should be at in the maturity model. >>And on top of that, if you come Thursday was Sonia book. And of course, a lot of money, one day, I promise >>You guys are good. I gotta ask, you know, the final question is like more and more, just more personal commentary. If you don't mind, as teams start to change, this is obviously causing a lot of positive transformation if done, right? So the roles and the teams are starting to change. Hearing SRS are now not just the dev ops guys provisioning they're part of the, of the scale piece, the developers shifting left, new kind of workflows, the role of certain engineers and developers now, new team formations. Why were you guys seeing that evolve? Is there any trends that you see around how people are reconfiguring their team makeup? >>I think a lot of things is going to a single panic last tonight, where I'm taking dev and ops and putting them one panel where I can see everything going on in my environment, which is very critical. So right now we're seeing a pre-training where every client wants to be able to have the holy grail of a secret credit class to drive to that. But for you to get there, there's a lot of work you've got to do overnight that will not happen. And that's where this maturity model, I think again, will enhance that ability to do that. >>There's a cultural shift happening. I mean, people are changing there's new skillsets and you know, obviously there's a lot of people who don't have the skill. So it's super important that people work with Kubernetes, get certified, use the maturity model to help them know what skills they need. >>And it's a living document too. It's not, I mean, a book and I was living book. It's going to evolve. Uh, what areas you think are going to come next? So you guys have to predict if you had to see kind of where the pieces are going. Uh, obviously with cloud, everything's getting, you know, more Lego blocks to play with more coolness you have in the, in this world. What's coming next with Sue. Do you guys see any, any, uh, forecasts or >>We're working with each one of the tag groups within the CNCF to help us build it out and come up with what is next based on their expertise in the area. So we'll see lots more coming. Um, and we hope that the maturity grows and because of something that everybody relies on and that they can use alongside the landscape and the trail map. And, um, >>It's super valuable. I think you guys need a plug for any people want to, how they join. If I want to get involved, how do I, what do I do? >>Um, you can join the Carter Garfish group. You can check us out on, get hub and see all the information there. Um, we have a slack channel within the CNCF and we have calls every other Tuesday that people can see the pools. >>Awesome. Congratulations, we'll need it. And super important as people want to navigate and start building out, you know, you've got to edge right around the corner there it's happening real fast. Data's at the edge. You got cloud at the edge. Azure, AWS, Google. I mean, they're pushing really hardcore 5g, lot changes. >>Everybody wants to cloud today. Now one client is, one is more cloud. At least both the cloud is comfortable playing everywhere. One pump wife had DevOps. >>It's distributed computing back in the modern era. Thank you so much for coming on the keep appreciating. Okay. I'm Jennifer here for cube con cloud native con 2021 in person. It's a hybrid event. We're here live on the floor show floor, bringing you all the coverage. Thanks for watching station all day. Next three days here in Los Angeles. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you.

>> Hi and welcome to Data Cloud catalyst Women in Tech Round Table Panel discussion. I am so excited to have three fantastic female executives with me today, who have been driving transformations through data throughout their entire career. With me today is Lisa Davis, SVP and CIO OF Blue shield of California. We also have Nishita Henry who is the Chief Innovation Officer at Deloitte and Teresa Briggs who is on a variety of board of directors including our very own Snowflake. Welcome ladies. >> Thank you. >> So I am just going to dive right in, you all have really amazing careers and resumes behind you, am really curious throughout your career, how have you seen the use of data evolve throughout your career and Lisa am going to start with you. >> Thank you, having been in technology my entire career, technology and data has really evolved from being the province of a few in an organization to frankly being critical to everyone's business outcomes. Now every business leader really needs to embrace data analytics and technology. We've been talking about digital transformation, probably the last five, seven years, we've all talked about, disrupt or be disrupted, At the core of that digital transformation is the use of data. Data and analytics that we derive insights from and actually improve our decision making by driving a differentiated experience and capability into market. So data has involved as being I would say almost tactical, in some sense over my technology career to really being a strategic asset of what we leverage personally in our own careers, but also what we must leverage as companies to drive a differentiated capability to experience and remain relative in the market today. >> Nishita curious your take on, how you have seen data evolve? >> Yeah, I agree with Lisa, it has definitely become a the lifeblood of every business, right? It used to be that there were a few companies in the business of technology, every business is now a technology business. Every business is a data business, it is the way that they go to market, shape the market and serve their clients. Whether you're in construction, whether you're in retail, whether you're in healthcare doesn't matter, right? Data is necessary for every business to survive and thrive. And I remember at the beginning of my career, data was always important, but it was about storing data, it was about giving people individual reports, it was about supplying that data to one person or one business unit in silos. And it then evolved right over the course of time into integrating data into saying, alright, how does one piece of data correlate to the other and how can I get insights out of that data? Now, its gone to the point of how do I use that data to predict the future? How do I use that data to automate the future? How do I use that data not just for humans to make decisions, but for other machines to make decisions, right? Which is a big leap and a big change in how we use data, how we analyze data and how we use it for insights and involving our businesses. >> Yeah its really changed so tremendously just in the past five years, its amazing. So Teresa we've talked a lot about the Data Cloud, where do you think we are heading with that and also how can future leaders really guide their careers in data especially in those jobs where we don't traditionally think of them in the data science space? Teresa your thoughts on that. >> Yeah, well since I'm on the Snowflake Board, I'll talk a little bit about the Snowflake Data Cloud, we're getting your company's data out of the silos that exist all over your organization. We're bringing third party data in to combine with your own data and we're wrapping a governance structure around it and feeding it out to your employees so they can get their jobs done, as simple as that. I think we've all seen the pandemic accelerate the digitization of our work. And if you ever doubted that the future of work is here, it is here and companies are scrambling to catch up by providing the right amount of data, collaboration tools, workflow tools for their workers to get their jobs done. Now, it used to be as prior people have mentioned that in order to work with data you had to be a data scientist, but I was an auditor back in the day we used to work on 16 column spreadsheets. And now if you're an accounting major coming out of college joining an auditing firm, you have to be tech and data savvy because you're going to be extracting, manipulating, analyzing and auditing data, that massive amounts of data that sit in your clients IT systems. I'm on the board of Warby Parker, and you might think that their most valuable asset is their amazing frame collection, but it's actually their data, their 360 degree view of the customer. And so if you're a merchant, or you're in strategy, or marketing or talent or the Co-CEO, you're using data every day in your work. And so I think it's going to become a ubiquitous skill that any anyone who's a knowledge worker has to be able to work with data. >> Yeah I think its just going to be organic to every role going forward in the industry. So, Lisa curious about your thoughts about Data Cloud, the future of it and how people can really leverage it in their jobs for future leaders. >> Yeah, absolutely most enterprises today are, I would say, hybrid multicloud enterprises. What does that mean? That means that we have data sitting on-prem, we have data sitting in public clouds through software as a service applications. We have a data everywhere. Most enterprises have data everywhere, certainly those that have owned infrastructure or weren't born on the web. One of the areas that I love that Data Cloud is addressing is area around data portability and mobility. Because I have data sitting in various locations through my enterprise, how do I aggregate that data to really drive meaningful insights out of that data to drive better business outcomes? And at Blue Shield of California, one of our key initiatives is what we call an Experienced Cube. What does that mean? That means how do I drive transparency of data between providers, members and payers? So that not only do I reduce overhead on providers and provide them a better experience, our hospital systems are doctors, but ultimately, how do we have the member have it their power of their fingertips the value of their data holistically, so that we're making better decisions about their health care. One of the things Teresa was talking about, was the use of this data and I would drive to data democratization. We got to put the power of data into the hands of everyone, not just data scientists, yes we need those data scientists to help us build AI models to really drive and tackle these tough old, tougher challenges and business problems that we may have in our environments. But everybody in the company both on the IT side, both on the business side, really need to understand of how do we become a data insights driven enterprise, put the power of the data into everyone's hands so that we can accelerate capabilities, right? And leverage that data to ultimately drive better business results. So as a leader, as a technology leader, part of our responsibility, our leadership is to help our companies do that. And that's really one of the exciting things that I'm doing in my role now at Blue Shield of California. >> Yeah its really, really exciting time. I want to shift gears a little bit and focus on women in Tech. So I think in the past five to ten years there has been a lot of headway in this space but the truth is women are still under represented in the tech space. So what can we do to attract more women into technology quite honestly. So Nishita curious what your thoughts are on that? >> Great question and I am so passionate about this for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is I have two daughters of my own and I know how important it is for women and young girls to actually start early in their love for technology and data and all things digital, right? So I think it's one very important to start early started early education, building confidence of young girls that they can do this, showing them role models. We at Deloitte just partnered with LV Engineer to actually make comic books centered around young girls and boys in the early elementary age to talk about how heroes in tech solve everyday problems. And so really helping to get people's minds around tech is not just in the back office coding on a computer, tech is about solving problems together that help us as citizens, as customers, right? And as humanity, so I think that's important. I also think we have to expand that definition of tech, as we just said it's not just about right, database design, It's not just about Java and Python coding, it's about design, it's about the human machine interfaces, it's about how do you use it to solve real problems and getting people to think in that kind of mindset makes it more attractive and exciting. And lastly, I'd say look we have a absolute imperative to get a diverse population of people, not just women, but minorities, those with other types of backgrounds, disabilities, et cetera involved because this data is being used to drive decision making in all involved, right, and how that data makes decisions, it can lead to unnatural biases that no one intended but can happen just 'cause we haven't involved a diverse enough group of people around it. >> Absolutely, lisa curious about your thoughts on this. >> I agree with everything Nishita said, I've been passionate about this area, I think it starts with first we need more role models, we need more role models as women in these leadership roles throughout various sectors. And it really is it starts with us and helping to pull other women forward. So I think certainly it's part of my responsibility, I think all of us as female executives that if you have a seat at the table to leverage that seat at the table to drive change, to bring more women forward more diversity forward into the boardroom and into our executive suites. I also want to touch on a point Nishita made about women we're the largest consumer group in the company yet we're consumers but we're not builders. This is why it's so important that we start changing that perception of what tech is and I agree that it starts with our young girls, we know the data shows that we lose our like young girls by middle school, very heavy peer pressure, it's not so cool to be smart, or do robotics, or be good at math and science, we start losing our girls in middle school. So they're not prepared when they go to high school, and they're not taking those classes in order to major in these STEM fields in college. So we have to start the pipeline early with our girls. And then I also think it's a measure of what your boards are doing, what is the executive leadership in your goals around diversity and inclusion? How do we invite more diverse population to the decision making table? So it's really a combination of efforts. One of the things that certainly is concerning to me is during this pandemic, I think we're losing one in four women in the workforce now because of all the demands that our families are having to navigate through this pandemic. The last statistic I saw in the last four months is we've lost 850,000 women in the workforce. This pipeline is critical to making that change in these leadership positions. >> Yeah its really a critical time and now we are coming to the end of this conversation I want to ask you Teresa what would be a call to action to everyone listening both men and women since its to be solved by everyone to address the gender gap in the industry? >> I'd encourage each of you to become an active sponsor. Research shows that women and minorities are less likely to be sponsored than white men. Sponsorship is a much more active form than mentorship. Sponsorship involves helping someone identify career opportunities and actively advocating for them and those roles opening your network, giving very candid feedback. And we need men to participate too, there are not enough women in tech to pull forward and sponsor the high potential women that are in our pipelines. And so we need you to be part of the solution. >> Nishita real quickly what would be your call to action to everyone? >> I'd say look around your teams, see who's on them and make deliberate decisions about diversifying those teams, as positions open up, make sure that you have a diverse set of candidates, make sure that there are women that are part to that team and make sure that you are actually hiring and putting people into positions based on potential not just experience. >> And real quickly Lisa, we'll close it out with you what would your call to action be? >> Wow, it's hard to what Nishita and what Tricia shared I think we're very powerful actions. I think it starts with us. Taking action at our own table, making sure you're driving diverse panels and hiring setting goals for the company, having your board engaged and holding us accountable and driving to those goals will help us all see a better outcome with more women at the executive table and diverse populations. >> Great advice and great action for all of us to take. Thank you all so much for spending time with me today and talking about this really important issue, I really appreciate it. Stay with us.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, Welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Cube. Welcome back to our ongoing coverage of the biz. Opps manifesto Unveil Something has been in the works for a little while. Today's a formal unveiling and we're excited to have three of the core founding members of the manifesto Authors of the manifesto, if you will joining us again. We've had them all on individually. Now we're gonna have a great power panel. First up, we have met Kirsten returning. He's the founder and CEO of Task Top make good to see again. Where you dialing in from? >>Great to see you again, Jeff. I'm dialing from Vancouver, Canada. >>Vancouver, Canada. One of my favorite cities in the whole wide world. Also, we've got Tom Davenport coming from across the country. He's a distinguished professor and author from Babson College. Tom, great to see. And I think you said you're a fund Exotic place on the East Coast. >>Falmouth, Massachusetts, on Cape Cod. >>Nice. Great to see you again. And also joining surge. Lucio. He is the VP and general manager Enterprise Software division at Broadcom Surge. Great to see you again. Where you coming in from? >>From Boston. Right next to kick off. Terrific. >>So welcome back, everybody again. Congratulations. On this day I know it's It's been a lot of work to get here for this unveil, but let's just jump into it. Biz Opps Manifesto What was the initial reason to do this? And how did you decide to do it in a kind of a coalition way, bringing together a group of people versus just making it an internal company, uh, initiative that, you know, you could do better stuff within your own company Surge. Why don't we start with you? >>Yeah, so? So I think we are really a critical juncture, right? Many large enterprises are basically struggling with their digital transformation. In fact, many recognized that the the Business Society collaboration has been one of the major impediments to drive that kind of transformation. And if we look at the industry today, many people or whether we're talking about vendors or system integrators, consulting firms are talking about the same kind of concepts but using very different language. And so we believe that bringing a lot these different players together assed part of the coalition and formalizing, uh, basically the core principles and values in a busy office manifesto. We can really start to have kind of a much bigger movement where we can all talk about kind of the same concepts. And we can really start to provide kind of a much better support for large organizations to transform eso, whether it is technology or services or trading. I think that that's really the value of bringing all of these players together >>and Mick to you. Why did you get involved in this in this effort? >>So I've been closely involved the actual movement since it started two decades ago with that manifesto, and I think we got a lot of improvement at the team level. And I think, as started just noted, we really need to improving. At the business level, every companies trying to become a software innovator trying to make sure that they can pick them, adapt quickly in the changing market economy and what everyone's dealing with in terms of needing to deliver value to customers. Sooner. However, agile practices have really focused that these metrics these measures and understanding processes that help teams be productive. Those things now need to be elevated to the business as a whole, and that just hasn't happened. Organizations are agile. Transmissions are actually failing because they're measuring activities and how they're becoming more agile. Have teams air functioning, not how much quickly they're delivering value to the customer. So we need to now move. Asked that. And that's exactly what the buzz off there's also manifested. Provides, >>right? Right And Tom to you. You've been covering tech for a very long time. You've been looking at really hard challenges and and a lot of work around analytics and data on data evolution. So there's a definitely a data angle here. I wonder if you kind of share your perspective of of what you got excited Thio to sign on to this manifesto? >>Sure. Well, I have. You know, for the past 15 or 20 years, I've been focusing on Data Analytics and AI. But before that, I was a process management guy and a knowledge management guy and a in general. I think, you know, we've just kind of optimized at too narrow a level. Whether you're talking about agile or Dev ops or, um, ml ops. Any of these kind of obs oriented movements, we're making individual project, um, performance and productivity better, But we're not changing the business effectively enough. And that's the thing that appealed to me about the biz ops idea that we're finally creating a closer connection between what we do with technology and how it changes the business and provides value to it. >>That's great, uh, surge back to you, right? I mean, people have been talking about digital transformation for a long time, and it's been, you know, kind of trucking along. And then Cove it hit, and it was instant lights, which everyone's working from home. You've got a lot more reliance on your digital tools, digital communication both within your customer base and your partner base, but also then you're employees. When if you could share how that really pushed this all along, right, because now suddenly the acceleration of digital transformation is higher. Even more importantly, you've got much more critical decisions to make into what you do next. So kind of your portfolio management of projects has been elevated significantly. When maybe revenues are down on. Do you really have Thio prioritize and get it right? >>Yeah. I mean, I'll just start by quoting city An Adele basically recently said that there's bean two years of digital transformation just last two months, and in many ways that's true. Um, but But yet when we look at large enterprises, they're still struggling with kind of a changes in culture that they really need Thio drive to be able to describe themselves. And not surprisingly, you know, when we look at certain parts of the industry, you know, we see some things which are very disturbing, right. About 40% of the personal loans today are being origin dated by Finn tax of a like of Sophie or or ah Lendingclub, right, Not your traditional brick and worked for bank. And so the while there is kind of ah, much more of an appetite, and it's it's more of a survival type driver these days. The reality is that in order for these large enterprises to truly transform and engage on these digital transformation, they need to start to really aligned the business 90 you know, in many ways and make cover that actually really emerge from the court desire to really improve software predictability, but we've which we have really missed is all the way. Start to aligning the software predictability to business predictability and to be able to have continuously continuous improvement and measurement off business outcomes. So by lining, but of this dis kind of inward metrics that I t is typically being using to business outcomes, we think we can start to really help different stakeholders within the organization to collaborate. So I think there is more than ever. There is an imperative to act now, um, and and results. I think it's kind of the right approach to drive that kind of transformation, >>right? I want to follow up on the culture comment with Utah because you've talked before about kind of process, flow and process flow throughout a whore, unorganized ation. And, you know, we talk about people process and tech all the time, and I think the tech is the easy part compared to actually changing the people the way they think and then the actual processes that they put in place. It's a much more difficult issue than just a tech issue to get this digital transformation in your organization. >>Yeah, you know, I've always found that the soft stuff the you know, the culture of the behavior of the values is the hard stuff to change and mawr and mawr. We we realized that to be successful with any kind of digital transformation, you have tow change, people's behaviors and attitudes. Um, we haven't made much progress in that area as we might have. I mean, I've done some surveys suggesting that most organizations still don't have data driven cultures, and in many cases, there is a lower percentage of companies that say they have that then did a few years ago. So we're kind of moving in the wrong direction, which means I think that we have to start explicitly addressing that cultural behavioral dimension and not just assuming that it will happen if we if we build a system, you know, if if we build it, they won't necessarily come right, >>right? So I want to go toe to you, Nick, because, you know, we're talking about work flows and flow. Andi, you've written about flow both in terms of, you know, moving things along a process and trying to find bottlenecks, identify bottlenecks which is now even more important again when these decisions are much more critical because you have a lot less ah, wiggle room in tough times. But you also talked about flow from the culture side on the people's side. So I wonder if you could just share your thoughts on, you know, using flow as a way to think about things to get the answers better? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I'll refer back to what Tom just said. If you're optimize, you need to optimize your system. You need to optimize how you innovate and how you deliver value to the business into the customer. Now what we've noticed in the data since that that we've learned from customers value streams, enterprise organizations, value streams is that what's taking six months and to and to deliver that value, the flow is that slow. You've got a bunch of unhappy developers. Unhappy customers, when you're innovating, have so high performing organizations we can measure their intent flow time in days. All of a sudden, that feedback loop the satisfaction your developers measurably goes up. So not only do you have people context switching last year, delivering so much more value to customers at a lower cost because you've optimized for flow rather than optimizing for these thes other approximately six that we use, which is how efficient my annual team. How quickly can we deploy software? Those are important, but they do not provide the value of agility, of fast learning, of adaptability, of the business. And that's exactly what the bishops manifesto pushes your organization to. You need to put in place this new operate model that's based on flow on the delivery of business value and on bringing value to market much more quickly than you were before, >>right? I love that. I'm gonna go back to Utah, him on that to follow up, because I think I don't think people think enough about how they prioritize what they're optimizing for. Because, you know, if you're optimizing for a vs B, you know you could have a very different product that that you kick out. You know, my favorite example with With Clayton Christensen and Innovator's Dilemma talking about the three inch our drive, if you optimize it for power, you know, is one thing. If you optimize it for vibration is another thing, and sure enough, you know they missed it on the Palm because it was the it was the game council which which drove that whole business. So when you're talking to customers and we think we're here with cloud all the time people optimizing for cost efficiency instead of thinking about it as an innovation tool, how do you help them? Kind of rethink and really, you know, forced them to to look at the at the prioritization and make sure they're prioritizing on the right thing is make just that. What do you optimizing for? >>Oh yeah, you have one of the most important aspects of any decision or attempt to resolve a problem in an organization is the framing process. And, um, you know, it's it's a difficult aspect toe of the decision toe frame it correctly in the first place. Um, there. It's not a technology issue. In many cases, it's largely a human issue. But if you frame that decision or that problem incorrectly too narrowly, say, or you frame it as an either or situation when you could actually have some of both, um, it's very difficult for the process toe work out correctly. So in many cases, I think we need to think mawr at the beginning about how we frame this issue or this decision in the best way possible before we charge off and build a system to support it. You know, it's worth that extra time to think. Think carefully about how the decision has been structured. Right? >>Surge. I wanna go back to you and talk about the human factors because we just discussed you could put in great technology. But if the culture doesn't adopt it and people don't feel good about it, you know it's not gonna be successful. And that's going to reflect poorly on the technology. Even if I had nothing to do with it. And you know, when you look at the core values of the best hopes manifesto, you know a big one is trust and collaboration. You know, learn, responded pivot. Wonder if you can share your thoughts on trying to get that cultural shift s so that you can have success with the people or excuse me with the technology in the process and helping customers, you know, take this more trustworthy and kind of proactive position. >>So I think I think at the ground level, it really starts with the realization that we were all different. We come from different backgrounds. Oftentimes we tend Thio. Blame the data. It's not uncommon my experience that we spend the first, you know, 30 minutes of any kind of one hour the conversation to debate the ability of the data on DSO, one of the first kind of probably manifestations that we've had. Our revelations as we start to engage with our customers is by just exposing high Fidelity data set two different stakeholders from their different lands. We start to enable these different stakeholders to not debate the data, but that's really collaborate to find a solution. So in many ways, when when when we think about kind of the types of changes were trying Thio truly affect around data driven decision making? It's all about bringing the data in context the context that is relevant and understandable for different stakeholders. Whether we're talking about an operator developed for a business analyst, so that's that's the first thing. The second layer, I think, is really to provide context to what people are doing in their specific silo. So I think one of the best examples I have is if you start to be able to align business k p i. Whether you are accounting, you know, with sales per hour or the engagement of your users on your mobile application, whatever it is, if you start to connect that k p I business K p I to the key piece that developers might be looking at, whether it is now the number of defects or velocity or whatever over metrics that they are used to to actually track, you start to be able to actually contextual eyes in what we are. The affecting, basically metric that that is really relevant. And what we see is that this is a much more systematic way to approach the transformation than say, You know, some organizations kind of creating some of these new products or services or initiatives to to drive engagement, right? So, you know, if you look at zoom, for instance, Zoom giving away, it's service thio education is all about. I mean, there's obviously a marketing aspect in there, but it's it's fundamentally about trying to drive also the engagement of their own teams and because now they're doing something for good, and many organizations are trying to do that. But you only can do this kind of things in a limited way. And so you really want to start to rethink? Oh, you connect everybody kind of business objective fruit data. And I always start to get people to stare at the same data from their own lands and collaborating on the data. Right? >>Right. That's good. Uh, Tom, I want to go back to you. You've been studying I t for a long time writing lots of books and and getting into it. Um, Why now? You know what? Why now? Are we finally aligning business objectives with objects? You know, why didn't this happen before? And, you know, what are the factors that are making now? The time for this. This this move with the with the biz ops. >>Well, in much of the past, I t waas sort of a back office related activity. You know, it was important for, um, producing your paychecks and, uh, capturing the customer orders, but the business wasn't built around it. Now, every organization needs to be a software business of data business. A digital business. The anti has been raised considerably. And if you aren't making that connection between your business objectives and the technology that supports it. You run a pretty big risk of, you know, going out of business or losing out to competitors. Totally so. And even if you're in a new industry that hasn't historically been terribly, um, technology oriented customer expectations flow from, you know, the digital native companies that they work with to basically every industry. So you're compared against the best in the world. So we don't really have the luxury anymore of screwing up our I T projects or building things that don't really work for the business. Um, it's mission critical that we do that well, almost every time, >>right. And I just I just wanna fall by that time, in terms of the you've talked extensively about kind of these evolutions of data analytics, from artisanal stage to the big data stage, the data economy stage the ai driven stage. What I find interesting about all the stages you always put a start date. You never put it in date. Um, so you know, is the is the big data. I'm just gonna use that generically moment in time. Finally, here. Where were, you know, off mahogany row with the data scientists, But actually could start to see the promise of delivering the right insight to the right person at the right time to make that decision. >>Well, I think it is true that in general, these previous stages never seem to go away. The three artisanal stuff is still being done, but we would like for less and less of it to be artisanal. We can't really afford for everything to be artisanal anymore. It's too labor and time consuming to do things that way. So we shift Mawr and Mawr of it to be done through automation and be to be done with a higher level of productivity. And, um, you know, at some point maybe we we reached the stage where we don't do anything artisanal e anymore. I'm not sure we're there yet, but, you know, we are We are making progress, >>right? Right. And make back to you in terms of looking at agile because you're you're such a student of agile. When when you look at the opportunity with biz ops, um, and taking the lessons from agile, you know what's been the inhibitor to stop this in the past. And what are you so excited about? you know, taking this approach will enable >>Yeah, I think both surgeon Tom hit on this. Is that in agile? What's happened is that we've been, you know, measuring tiny subsets of the value stream, right? We need to elevate the data's there, developers air working on these tools of delivering features. The foundations for for great culture are there. I spent two decades as a developer, and when I was really happy when I was able to deliver value to customers, the quicker is able to do that. The fewer impediments are in my way, the quicker was deployed and running the cloud, the happier I waas and that's exactly what's happening if we could just get the right data elevated to the business, not just to the agile teams, but really these values of ours are to make sure that you've got these data driven decisions with meaningful data that's oriented and delivering value to customers. None of these legacies that Tom touched on, which has cost center metrics from a nightie, came from where for I t being a cost center and something that provided email on back office systems. So we need thio rapidly shift to those new, meaningful metrics, their customer and business centric. And make sure that every development organization is focused on those as well as the business itself that we're measuring value. And they were helping that value flow without interruption. >>I love that because if you don't measure it, you can't improve on it. And you gotta but you gotta be measuring the right thing. So, gentlemen, thank you again for for your time. Uh, congratulations on the on the unveil of the biz ops manifesto and bringing together this coalition of industry experts to get behind this. And, you know, there's probably never been a more important time than now to make sure that your prioritization is in the right spot. And you're not wasting resource is where you're not gonna get the r. O. I. So, uh, congratulations again. And thank you for sharing your thoughts with us here on the Cube. Thank >>you. All >>right, So we have surged. Tom and Mick. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. It's a biz ops manifesto unveiled. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Yeah,

>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's theCUBE. With digital coverage of BizOps Manifesto Unveiled. Brought to you by BizOps Coalition. >> Hey, welcome back everybody ,Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. Welcome back to our ongoing coverage of the BizOps Manifesto Unveiled. Something has been in the works for a little while. Today's the formal unveiling and we're excited to have three of the core founding members of the manifesto, authors of the manifesto, if you will. And joining us again, we've had them all on individually, now we're going to have a great power panel. First up, we're going to have Mik Kersten returning. He's the founder and CEO of Tasktop. Mik, good to see you again. Where are you dialing in from? >> Great to see you again, Jeff. I'm dialing from Vancouver, Canada. >> Vancouver, Canada. One of my favorite cities in the whole wide world. Also we've got Tom Davenport, coming in from across the country. He's a distinguished professor and author from Babson College. Tom, great to see you. And I think you said you're at a fun exotic place on the East Coast. >> From Massachusetts, Cape Cod. >> Nice, great to see you again. And also joining Serge Lucio. He is the VP and General Manager Enterprise Software Division at Broadcom. Serge, great to see you again, where are you coming in from? >> From Boston right next to Cape Cod. >> Terrific. So welcome back, everybody again. Congratulations on this day. I know it's been a lot of work to get here for this unveil. But let's just jump into it. BizOps Manifesto, what was the initial reason to do this? And how did you decide to do it in a kind of a coalition, way bringing together a group of people versus just making it an internal company initiative that you know, you can do better stuff within your own company? Serge, why don't we start with you? >> Yeah, so I think we were at a really critical juncture, right. Many large enterprises are basically struggling with their digital transformation. In fact, many recognized that the business (indistinct) collaboration has been one of the major impediments to drive that kind of transformation. And if we look at the industry today, many people are, whether we're talking about vendors or system decorators, consulting firms, are talking about the same kind of concepts, but using very different language. And so we believe that bringing all these different players together as part of the coalition and formalizing, basically the core principles and values in a BizOps Manifesto, we can really start to kind of have a much bigger movement where we can all talk about kind of the same concepts and we can really start to provide, could have a much better support for large organizations to transform. So whether it is technology or services or training, I think that's really the value of bringing all of these players together. >> Great. And Mik to you. Why did you get involved in this effort? >> So I've been close and follow the agile movement since it started two decades ago with that manifesto. And I think we got a lot of improvement at the team level and I think as Serge has noted, we really need to improve at the business level. Every company is trying to become a software innovator, trying to make sure that they can pivot that quickly and then changing market economy and what everyone's dealing with in terms of needing to deliver value to customers sooner. However, agile practices have really focused that these metrics, these measures and understanding processes that help teams be productive. Those things now need to be elevated to the business as a whole. And that just hasn't happened. Organizations are actually failing because they're measuring activities and how they're becoming more agile, how teams are functioning not how much quickly they're delivering value to the customer. So we need to now move past that. And that's exactly what the BizOps Manifesto provides. >> Right, great And Tom to you, you've been covering tech for a very very long time. You've been looking at really hard challenges and a lot of work around analytics and data and data evolution. So there's a definitely a data angle here. I wonder if you could kind of share your perspective of what you got excited to sign onto this manifesto. >> Sure. Well, I have, you know, for the past 15 or 20 years, I've been focusing on Data Analytics and AI, but before that I was a process management guy and a knowledge management guy. And in general, I think, you know we've just kind of optimize that to narrow a level whether you're talking about agile or DevOps or MLops, any of these kind of ops oriented movements. We're making individual project performance and productivity better but we're not changing the business effectively enough. And that's the thing that appealed to me about the BizOps idea that we're finally creating a closer connection between what we do with technology and how it changes the business and provides value to it. >> That's great. Serge back to you, right. I mean, people have been talking about digital transformation for a long time and it's been you know, kind of trucking along and then COVID hit and it was instant light switch. Everyone's working from home, you've got a lot more reliance on your digital tools, digital communication, both within your customer base and your partner base but also then your employees. One of you can share how that really pushed this all along, right. Because now suddenly the acceleration of digital transformation is higher. Even more importantly, you got much more critical decisions to make into what you do next. So kind of your portfolio management of projects has been elevated significantly when maybe revenues are down and you really have to prioritize and get it right. >> Yeah. Maybe I'll just start by quoting Satina Nello, basically recently said that there's been two years of digital transformation just last two months. And in any many ways that's true. But yet when we look at large enterprises, they're still struggling with a kind of a changes in culture. That they really need to drive to be able to disrupt themselves. And not surprisingly you know, when we look at certain parts of the industry you know, we see some things which are very disturbing, right? About 40% of the personal loans today, are being originated by fintechs of a like of Sophie or LendingClub, right? Not to traditional brick and mortar for a bank. And so the, well, there is kind of a much more of an appetite and it's a more of a survival type of driver these days. The reality is that in order for these large enterprises to truly transform and engage on this digital transformation they need to start to really align the business in IT. You know, in many ways and make cover that agile really emerge from the core desire to truly improve software predictability which we've really missed is all that we start to aligning the software predictability to business predictability and to be able to have continual sleep continuous improvement and measurement of business outcomes. So by aligning that of these discuss inward metrics that's, IT is typically being using to business outcomes. We think we can start to really help different stakeholders within the organization to collaborate. So I think there is more than ever. There's an imperative to acts now and resolves I think is kind of the right approach to drive that kind of transformation. >> Great. I want to follow up on the culture comment with you, Tom because you've talked before about kind of process flow and process flow throughout a whore and an organization. And, you know, we talk about people process and tech all the time. And I think the tech is the easy part compared to actually changing the people the way they think. And then the actual processes that they put in place. It's a much more difficult issue than just the tech issue to get this digital transformation in your organization. >> Yeah. You know, I've always found that the soft stuff about, you know, the culture of a behavior the values is the hard stuff to change and more and more we realized that to be successful with any kind of digital transformation you have to change people's behaviors and attitudes. We haven't made as much progress in that area as we might have. I mean, I've done some surveys suggesting that most organizations still don't have data driven cultures. And in many cases there is a lower percentage of companies that say they have that then did a few years ago. So we're kind of moving in the wrong direction, which means I think that we have to start explicitly addressing that cultural, behavioral dimension and not just assuming that it will happen if we build system. You know, if we build it, they won't necessarily come. >> Right. So I want to go to you Nick. 'Cause you know, we're talking about workflows and flow and, and you've written about flow both in terms of, you know, moving things along a process and trying to find bottlenecks, identify bottlenecks which is now even more important again when these decisions are much more critical 'cause you have a lot less wiggle room in tough times, but you also talked about flow from the culture side and the people side. So, I wanted if you can just share your thoughts on, you know, using flow as a way to think about things, to get the answers better. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I'll refer back to what Tom has said. If you're optimized, you need to optimize your system. You need to optimize how you innovate and how you deliver value to the business and the customer. Now, what we've noticed in the data, since that we've learned from customers, value streams, enterprise organizations value streams, is that when it's taking six months at the end to deliver that value with the flow is that slow. You've got a bunch of unhappy developers unhappy customers when you're innovating house. So high performing organizations we can measure their end flow time and dates. All of a sudden that feedback loop the satisfaction your developer's measurably goes up. So not only do you have people context, switching glass you're delivering so much more value to customers at a lower cost because you've optimized for flow rather than optimizing for these other approximate tricks that we use which is how efficient is my agile team. How quickly can we deploy software? Those are important, but they do not provide the value of agility of fast learning of adaptability to the business. And that's exactly what the BizOps Manifesto pushes your organization to do. You need to put in place this new operating model that's based on flow on the delivery of business value and on bringing value to market much more quickly than you were before. >> Right. I love that. And I'm going back to you, Tom, on that to follow up 'cause I think, I don't think people think enough about how they prioritize what they're optimizing for 'cause you know if you're optimizing for A versus B, you know you can have a very different product that you kick out and let you know. My favorite example is with Clayton Christensen and innovator's dilemma talking about the three inch hard drive. If you optimize it for power, you know, is one thing if you optimize it for vibration is another thing and sure enough, you know, they missed it on the poem because it was the game console which drove that whole business. So when you when you're talking to customers and we think we hear it with cloud all the time people optimizing for a cost efficiency instead of thinking about it as an innovation tool. How do you help them kind of rethink and really, you know, force them to look at the prioritization and make sure they're prioritizing on the right thing is make just said what are you optimizing for? >> Oh yeah, you have one of the most important aspects of any decision or attempt to resolve a problem in an organization is the framing process. And you know, it's a difficult aspect to the decision to frame it correctly in the first place. There, it's not a technology issue. In many cases, it's largely a human issue, but if you frame that decision or that problem incorrectly to narrowly say, or you frame it as an either or situation where you could actually have some of both, it's very difficult for the process to work out correctly. So in many cases that I think we need to think more at the beginning about how we bring this issue or this decision in the best way possible before we charge off and build a system to support it. You know, it's worth that extra time to think carefully about how the decision has been structured. >> Right. Serge, I want to go back to you and talk about the human factors, because as we've just discussed, you could put it in great technology, but if the culture doesn't adopt it and people don't feel good about it, you know, it's not going to be successful and that's going to reflect poorly on the technology, even if it had nothing to do with it. And you know, when you look at the core values of the Bezos Manifesto, you know, a big one is trust and collaboration, you know, learn, respond and pivot. One of you can share your thoughts on trying to get that cultural shift so that you can have success with the people or excuse me, with the technology in the process and helping customers, you know, take this more trustworthy and kind of proactive position. >> So I think, at the ground level, it truly starts with the realization that we're all different. We come from different backgrounds. Often times we tend to blame the data. It's not uncommon my experiments that we spend the first you know 30 minutes of any kind of one hour conversation to debate the validity of the data. And so one of the first kind of probably manifestations that we've had or revelations as we start to engage with our customers is like just exposing high-fidelity data sets to different stakeholders from their different lens. We start to enable these different stakeholders to not debate the data. That's really collaborate to find a solution. So in many ways, when we think about kind of the types of changes that we're trying to truly effect around data driven decision making it's all about bringing the data in context, the context that is relevant and understandable for different stakeholders, whether we're talking about an operator or a developer or a business analyst. So that's, the first thing. The second layer I think, is really to provide context to what people are doing in their specific cycle. And so I think one of the best examples I have is if you start to be able to align business KPI whether you are counting you know, sales per hour, or the engagements of your users on your mobile applications, whatever it is. You can start to connect that KPI to business KPI to the KPIs that developers might be looking at, whether it is the number of defects or a velocity or whatever, you know metrics that they are used to actually track. You start to be able to actually contextualize in what we are the effecting, basically a metric that is really relevant in which we see is that this is a much more systematic way to approach the transformation than say, you know, some organizations kind of creating some of these new products or services or initiatives to drive engagements, right? So if you look at zoom for instance, zoom giving away it's service to education, is all about, I mean, there's obviously a marketing aspect in therapists. It's fundamentally about trying to drive also the engagement of their own teams. And because now they're doing something for good and the organizations are trying to do that. But you only can do this kind of things in a limited way. And so you really want to start to rethink how you connect to everybody's kind of a business objective through data and now you start to get people to stare at the same data from their own lens and collaborate on all the data. >> Right, great That's a good. Tom I want to go back to you. You've been studying IT for a long time, writing lots of books and getting into it. Why now, you know, what why now (laughs) are we finally aligning business objectives with IT objectives? You know, why didn't this happen before? And you know, what are the factors that are making now the time for this move with the BizOps? >> Well, much of a past, IT was sort of a back office related activity. And, you know, it was important for producing your pay check and capturing the customer orders but the business wasn't built around it. Now, every organization needs to be a software business data business a digital business, the auntie has been raised considerably. And if you aren't making that connection between your business objectives and the technology that supports it you run a pretty big risk of, you know going out of business or losing out to competitors totally. So, and even if you're you know, an industry that hasn't historically been terribly technology oriented customer expectations flow from, you know, the digital native companies that they work with to basically every industry. So you're compared against the best in the world. So we don't really have the luxury anymore of screwing up our IT projects or building things that don't really work for the business. It's mission critical that we do that well almost every time. >> Right. And I just want to follow up by that, Tom In terms of the, you've talked extensively about kind of these evolutions of data and analytics from artisanal stage to the big data stage, the data economy stage the AI driven stage and what I find diff interesting that all those stages, you always put a start date. You never put an end date. So, you know, is the big data I'm just going to use that generically moment in time, finally here, where we're you know, off mahogany row with the data scientists but actually can start to see the promise of delivering the right insight to the right person at the right time to make that decision. >> Well, I think it is true that in general, these previous stages never seemed to go away. The artisanal stuff is still being done but we would like for less and lesser of it to be artisanal, we can't really afford for everything to be artisanal anymore. It's too labor and time consuming to do things that way. So we shift more and more of it to be done through automation and to be done with a higher level of productivity. And, you know at some point maybe we reached the stage where we don't do anything artisanally anymore. I'm not sure we're there yet but you know, we are making progress. >> Right And Mick, back to you in terms of looking at agile 'cause you're such a student of agile, when you look at the opportunity with BizOps and taking the lessons from agile, you know what's been the inhibitor to stop this in the past. And what are you so excited about? You know, taking this approach will enable. >> Yeah. I think both Serge and Tom hit on this is that in agile what's happened is that we've been you know measuring tiny subsets of the value stream right. We need to elevate the data's there. Developers are working on these tools that delivering features that the foundations for great culture are there. I spent two decades as a developer. And when I was really happy is when I was able to deliver value to customers, the quicker I was able to do that the fewer impediments are in my way the quicker was deployed and running in the cloud the happier I was, and that's exactly what's happening. If we can just get the right data elevated to the business, not just to the agile teams but really these values of ours are to make sure that you've got these data driven decisions with meaningful data that's oriented around delivering value to customers. Not only these legacies that Tom touched on, which has cost center metrics from an IT, for IT being a cost center and something that provided email and then back office systems. So we need to rapidly shift to those new meaningful metrics that are customized business centric and make sure that every developer the organization is focused on those as well as the business itself, that we're measuring value and we're helping that value flow without interruptions. >> I love that Mik 'cause if you don't measure it, you can't improve on it but you got to be measuring the right thing. So gentlemen, thank you again for your time. Congratulations on the unveil of the BizOps Manifesto and bringing together this coalition of industry experts to get behind this. And you know there's probably never been a more important time than now to make sure that your prioritization is in the right spot and you're not wasting resources where you're not going to get the ROI. So congratulations again. And thank you for sharing your thoughts with us here on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you from Vancouver. >> Alright, so we had Serge, Tom and Mik. I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. It's a BizOps Manifesto Unveiled. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. Yeah, Lauren, Welcome to the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly and hosted with Silicon Angle acute here in Palo Alto, California for a virtual conference. Couldn't happen in person this year. I'm John for a year. Host the intersection of space and cybersecurity. I'll see critical topics, great conversations. We got a great guest here to talk about the addressing the cybersecurity workforce gap, and we have a great guest, a feature speaker. Stewart Knox, the undersecretary with California's Labor and Workforce Development Office. Stewart Thanks for joining us today. >>Thank you so much, John. Appreciate your time today and listening to a little bit of our quandaries with making sure that we have the security that's necessary for the state of California and making sure that we have the work force that is necessary for cybersecurity in space. >>Great, I'd love to get started. I got a couple questions for you, but first take a few minutes for an opening statement to set the stage. >>Sure, realizing that in California we lead the nation in much of cybersecurity based on Department of Defense contractors within the Santa California leading the nation with over $160 billion within the industry just here in California alone and having over 800,000 bus workers. Full time employment in the state of California is paramount for us to make sure that we face, um, defense manufacturers approximate 700,000 jobs that are necessary to be filled. There's over 37,000 vacancies that we know of in California, just alone in cybersecurity. And so we look forward to making sure that California Workforce Development Agency is leading the charge to make sure that we have equity in those jobs and that we are also leading in a way that brings good jobs to California and to the people of California, a good education system that is developed in a way that those skills are necessarily met for the for the employers here in California and the nation, >>One of the exciting things about California is obviously look at Silicon Valley, Hewlett Packard in the garage, storied history space. It's been a space state. Many people recognize California. You mentioned defense contractors. It's well rooted with with history, um, just breakthroughs bases, technology companies in California. And now you've got technology. This is the cybersecurity angle. Um, take >>them into >>Gets more commentary to that because that's really notable. And as the workforce changes, these two worlds are coming together, and sometimes they're in the same place. Sometimes they're not. This is super exciting and a new dynamic that's driving opportunities. Could you share, um, some color commentary on that dynamic? >>Absolutely. And you're so correct. I think in California we lead the nation in the way that we developed programs that are companies lead in the nation in so many ways around, uh, cyberspace cybersecurity, Uh, in so many different areas for which in the Silicon Valley is just, uh, such a leader in those companies are good qualified companies to do so. Obviously, one of the places we play a role is to make sure that those companies have a skilled workforce. Andi, also that the security of those, uh, systems are in place for our defense contractors onda For the theater companies, those those outlying entities that are providing such key resource is to those companies are also leading on the cutting edge for the future. Also again realizing that we need to expand our training on skills to make sure that those California companies continue to lead is just, um, a great initiative. And I think through apprenticeship training programs on By looking at our community college systems, I think that we will continue to lead the nation as we move forward. >>You know, we've had many conversations here in this symposium, virtually certainly around. The everyday life of consumer is impacted by space. You know, we get our car service Uber lyft. We have maps. We have all this technology that was born out of defense contracts and r and D that really changed generations and create a lot of great societal value. Okay, now, with space kind of on the next generation is easier to get stuff into space. The security of the systems is now gonna be not only paramount for quality of life, but defending that and the skills are needed in cybersecurity to defend that. And the gap is there. What >>can we >>do to highlight the opportunities for career paths? It used to be the day when you get a mechanical engineering degree or aerospace and you graduated. You go get a job. Not anymore. There's a variety of of of paths career wise. What can we do to highlight this career path? >>Absolutely correct. And I think it starts, you know, k through 12 system on. I know a lot of the work that you know, with this bow and other entities we're doing currently, uh, this is where we need to bring our youth into an age where they're teaching us right as we become older on the uses of technology. But it's also teaching, um, where the levels of those education can take them k through 12. But it's also looking at how the community college system links to that, and then the university system links above and beyond. But it's also engage in our employers. You know, One of the key components, obviously, is the employers player role for which we can start to develop strategies that best meet their needs quickly. I think that's one of the comments we hear the most labor agency is how we don't provide a change as fast as we should, especially in technology. You know, we buy computers today, and they're outdated. Tomorrow it's the same with the technology that's in those computers is that those students are going to be the leaders within that to really develop how those structures are in place. S O. K. Through 12 is probably primary place to start, but also continuing. That passed the K 12 system and I bring up the employers and I bring them up in a way, because many times when we've had conversations with employers around what their skills needs were and how do we develop those better? One of the pieces that of that that I think is really should be recognized that many times they recognized that they wanted a four year degree, potentially or five year, six year degree. But then, when we really looked at the skill sets, someone coming out of the community college system could meet those skill sets. And I think we need to have those conversations to make sure not that they shouldn't be continue their education. They absolutely should. Uh, but how do we get those skill sets built into this into 12 plus the two year plus the four year person? >>You know, I love the democratization of these new skills because again. There's no pattern matching because they weren't around before, right? So you gotta look at the exposure to your point K through 12 exposure. But then there's an exploration piece of whether it's community, college or whatever progression. And sometimes it's nonlinear, right? I mean, people are learning different ways, combining the exposure and the exploration. That's a big topic. Can you share your view on this because this now opens up mawr doors for people choice. You got new avenues. You got online clock and get a cloud computing degree now from Amazon and walk in and help. I could be, you know, security clearance, possibly in in college. So you know you get exposure. Is there certain things you see? Is it early on middle school? And then I'll see the exploration Those air two important concepts. Can you unpack that a little bit exposure and exploration of skills? >>Absolutely. And I think this takes place, you know, not only in in the K 12 because somebody takes place in our community colleges and universities is that that connection with those employers is such a key component that if there's a way we could build in internships where experiences what we call on the job training programs apprenticeship training pre apprenticeship training programs into a design where those students at all levels are getting an exposure to the opportunities within the Space and Cybersecurity Avenue. I think that right there alone will start to solve a problem of having 37 plus 1000 openings at any one time in California. Also, I get that there's there's a burden on employers. Thio do that, and I think that's a piece that we have to acknowledge. And I think that's where education to play a larger role That's a place we had. Labor, Workforce, Development Agency, player role With our apprenticeship training programs are pre apprenticeship training programs. I could go on all day of all of our training programs that we have within the state of California. Many of the list of your partners on this endeavor are partners with Employment Training Panel, which I used to be the director of the Brown administration of um, That program alone does incumbent worker training on DSO. That also is an exposure place where ah worker, maybe, you know, you know, use the old adage of sweeping the floors one day and potentially, you know, running a large portion of the business, you know, within years. But it's that exposure that that employee gets through training programs on band. Acknowledging those skill sets and where their opportunities are, is what's valid and important. I think that's where our students we need to play a larger role in the K 12. That's a really thio Get that pushed out there. >>It's funny here in California you're the robotics clubs in high school or like a varsity sport. You're seeing kids exposed early on with programming. But you know, this whole topic of cybersecurity in space intersection around workforce and the gaps and skills is not just for the young. Certainly the young generations gotta be exposed to the what the careers could be and what the possible jobs and societal impact and contributions what they could be. But also it's people who are already out there. You know, you have retraining re Skilling is plays an important role. I know you guys do a lot of thinking on this is the under secretary. You have to look at this because you know you don't wanna have a label old and antiquated um systems. And then a lot of them are, and they're evolving and they're being modernized by digital transformation. So what does the role of retraining and skill development these programs play? Can you share what you guys are working on in your vision for that? >>Absolutely. That's a great question. And I think that is where we play a large role, obviously in California and with Kobe, 19 is we're faced with today that we've never seen before, at least in my 27 years of running program. Similar Thio, of course, in economic development, we're having such a large number of people displaced currently that it's unprecedented with unemployment rates to where we are. We're really looking at How do we take? And we're also going to see industries not return to the level for which they stood at one point in time. Uh, you know, entertainment industries, restaurants, all the alike, uh, really looking at how do we move people from those jobs that were middle skill jobs, topper skilled jobs? But the pay points maybe weren't great, potentially, and there's an opportunity for us to skill people into jobs that are there today. It may take training, obviously, but we have dollars to do that generally, especially within our K 12 and are que 14 systems and our universities. But we really wanna look at where those skill sets are are at currently. And we want to take people from that point in time where they said today, and try to give them that exposure to your point. Earlier question is, how do we get them exposed to a system for which there are job means that pay well with benefit packages with companies that care about their employees? Because that's what our goal is. >>You know. You know, I don't know if you have some visibility on this or ah opinion, but one observation that I've had and talking to whether it's a commercial or public sector is that with co vid uh, there have been a lot of awareness of the situation. We're adequately prepared. There's, um, readiness. But as everyone kind of deals with it, they're also starting to think about what to do. Post covert as we come out of it, Ah, growth strategy for a company or someone's career, um, people starting to have that on the top of their minds So I have to ask you, Is there anything that you see that they say? Okay, certain areas, maybe not doubling down on other areas. We're gonna double down on because we've seen some best practices on a trajectory of value for coming out of co vid with, you know, well, armed skills or certain things because you because that's what a lot of people are thinking right now. It's probably cyber is I mean, how many jobs are open? So you got well, that that's kind of maybe not something double down on here are areas we see that are working. Can you share your current visibility to that dynamic? >>Absolutely. Another great question. One of the key components that we look at Labor Workforce Development Agency. And so look at industries and growth modes and ones that are in decline boats. Now Kobe has changed that greatly. We were in a growth rate for last 78 years. We saw almost every industry might miss a few. You know that we're all in growth in one way or enough, obviously, that has changed. Our landscape is completely different than we saw 67 months ago. So today we're looking at cybersecurity, obviously with 30 plus 1000 jobs cos we're looking at Defense Department contractor is obviously with federal government contracts. We were looking at the supply chains within those we're looking at. Health care, which has always been one, obviously are large one of our large entities that has has grown over the years. But it's also changed with covered 19. We're looking at the way protective equipment is manufactured in the way that that will continue to grow over time. We're looking at the service industry. I mean, it will come back, but it won't come back the way we've seen it, probably in the past, but where the opportunities that we develop programs that we're making sure that the skill sets of those folks are transferrable to other industries with one of the issues that we face constant labor and were forced moment programs is understanding that over the period of time, especially in today's world again, with technology that people skill sets way, don't see is my Parents Day that you worked at a job for 45 years and you retired out of one job. Potentially, that is, that's been gone for 25 years, but now, at the pace for which we're seeing systems change. This is going to continue to amp up. I will stay youth of today. My 12 year old nephew is in the room next door to me on a classroom right now online. And so you know, there. It's a totally different atmosphere, and he's, you know, enjoying actually being in helping learning from on all online system. I would not have been able to learn that way, but I think we do see through the K Through 12 system where we're moving, um, people's interest will change, and I think that they will start to see things in a different way than we have in the past. They were forced systems. We are an old system been around since the thirties. Some even will say prior to the thirties came out of the Great Depression in some ways, and that system we have to change the way we develop our programs are should not be constant, and it should be an evolving system. >>It's interesting a lot of the conversation between the private and public partnerships and industry. You're seeing an agile mind set where it's a growth mindset. It's also reality based mindset and certainly space kind of forces. This conversation with cyber security of being faster, faster, more relevant, more modern. You mentioned some of those points, and with co vid impact the workforce development, it's certainly going to put a lot of pressure on faster learning. And then you mentioned online learning. This has become a big thing. It's not just putting education online per se. There's new touch points. You know you got APS, you got digital. This digital transformation is also accelerating. How do you guys view the workforce development? Because it's going to be open. It's gonna be evolving. There's new data coming in, and maybe kids don't want to stare at a video conference. Is there some game aspect to it? Is there how do you integrate thes new things that are coming really fast? And it's happening kind of in real time in front of our eyes. So I love to get your thoughts on how you guys see that, because it will certainly impact their ability to compete for jobs and or to itself learn. >>I think one of the key components of California's our innovation right and So I think one of the things that we pride ourselves in California is around that, um that said, that is the piece that I think the Silicon Valley and there's many areas in California that that have done the same, um, or trying to do the same, at least in their economy, is to build in innovation. And I think that's part of the K through 12 system with our with our our state universities and our UCS is to be able to bridge that. I think that you we see that within universities, um, that really instill an innovative approach to teaching but also instill innovation within their students. I'm not sure there yet with our fully with our K 12 system. And I think that's a place that either our community colleges could be a bridge, too, as well. Eso that's one component of workforce development I think that we look at as being a key. A key piece you brought up something that's really interesting to me is when you talk about agile on day, one of the things that even in state government on this, is gonna be shocking to you. But we have not been an agile system, Aziz. Well, I think one of the things that the Newsome administration Governor Newsom's administration has brought is. And when I talk about agile systems, I actually mean agile systems. We've gone from Kobol Systems, which are old and clunky, still operating. But at the same time, we're looking at upgrading all of our systems in a way that even our technology in the state of California should be matching the technology that our great state has within our our state. So, um, there in lies. It's also challenges of finding the qualified staff that we need in the state of California for all of our systems and servers and everything that we have. Um, currently. So you know, not only are we looking at external users, users of labor, workforce development, but we're looking at internal users that the way we redevelop our systems so that we are more agile in two different ways. >>You just got me. I triggered with COBOL. I programmed in the eighties with COBOL is only one credit lab in college. Never touched it again. Thank God. But this. But this >>is the >>benefit of cloud computing. I think this is at the heart, and this is the undertone of the conference and symposium is cloud computing. You can you can actually leverage existing resource is whether there legacy systems because they are running. They're doing a great job, and they do a certain work load extremely well. Doesn't make sense to replace what does a job, but you can integrate it in this. What cloud does this is Opening up? Can mawr more and more capabilities and workloads? This is kind of the space industry is pointing to when they say we need people that can code. And that could solve data problems. Not just a computer scientist, but a large range of people. Creative, um, data, science, everything. How does California's workforce solve the needs of America's space industry? This is because it's a space state. How do you see that? Let your workforce meeting those needs. >>Yeah, I think I think it's an investment. Obviously, it's an investment on our part. It's an investment with our college partners. It's an investment from our K 12 system to make sure that that we are allocating dollars in a way through meeting the demand of industry Onda, we do look at industry specific around there needs. Obviously, there's a large one. We wanna be very receptive and work with our employers and our employee groups to make sure that we need that demand. I think it's putting our money where our mouth is and and designing and working with employer groups to make sure that the training meets their needs. Um, it's also working with our employer groups to make sure that the employees are taken care of. That equity is built within the systems, Um, that we keep people employed in California on their able to afford a home, and they're able to afford a life here in California. But it's also again, and I brought up the innovation component. I think it's building an innovation within systems for which they are employers but are also our incoming employees are incumbent workers. And you brought this up earlier. People that already employed and people that are unemployed currently with the skill set that might match up, is how do we bridge those folks into employment that they maybe have not thought about. We have a whole career network of systems out throughout the city, California with the Americans job Centers of California on day will be working, and they already are working with a lot of dislocated workers on day. One of the key components of that is to really look at how do we, um, take what their current skills that might be and then expose them to a system for which we have 37 plus 1000 job openings to Andi? How do we actually get those books employed? It's paying for potentially through those that local Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act, funding for Americans job centers, um, to pay for some on the job, training it Z to be able to pay for work experiences. It's to be able to pay for internships for students, um, to get that opportunity with our employers and also partner with our employers that they're paying obviously a percentage of that, too. >>You know, one of the things I've observed over my, um, career 54 times around the sun is you know, in the old days when I was in college in school, you had career people have longer jobs, as you mentioned. Not like that anymore. But also I knew someone I'm gonna be in line to get that job, maybe nepotism or things of that nature. Now the jobs have no historical thing or someone worked longer in a job and has more seniority. Ah, >>lot of these >>jobs. Stewart don't HAVA requirements like no one's done them before. So the ability for someone who, um, is jumping in either from any college, there's no riel. It's all level set. It's like complete upside down script here. It's not like, Oh, I went to school. Therefore I get the job you could be Anyone could walk into these careers because the jobs air so new. So it's not where you came from or what school you went to or your nationality or gender. The jobs have been democratized. They're not discriminating against people with skills. So this opens up mawr. How >>do you >>see that? Because this really is an opportunity for this next generation to be more diverse and to be mawr contributed because diversity brings expertise and different perspectives. Your thoughts on that? >>Absolutely. And that was one of the things we welcome. Obviously we want to make sure that that everybody is treated equally and that the employers view everyone as employer employer of choice but an employee of choices. Well, we've also been looking at, as I mentioned before on the COVITZ situation, looking at ways that books that are maybe any stuck in jobs that are don't have a huge career pathway or they don't have a pathway out of poverty. I mean, we have a lot of working for people in the state of California, Um, that may now do to cope and lost their employment. Uh, this, you know, Let's let's turn back to the old, you know? Let's try, eliminate, eliminate, eliminate. How do we take those folks and get them employed into jobs that do have a good career pathway? And it's not about just who you knew or who you might have an in with to get that job. It is based on skills, I think, though that said there we need to have a better way to actually match those jobs up with those employers. And I think those are the long, ongoing conversations with those employer groups to make sure that one that they see those skill sets is valid and important. Um, they're helping design this crew sets with us, eh? So that they do match up and that were quickly matching up those close skills. That so that we're not training people for yesterday skills. >>I think the employer angles super important, but also the educators as well. One of the things that was asked in another question by the gas they they said. She said The real question to ask is, how early do you start exposing the next generation? You mentioned K through 12. Do you have any data or insight into or intuition or best practice of where that insertion point is without exposure? Point is, is that middle school is a elementary, obviously high school. Once you're in high school, you got your training. Wheels are off, you're off to the races. But is there a best practice? What's your thoughts? Stewart On exposure level to these kinds of new cyber and technical careers? >>Sure, absolutely. I I would say kindergarten. We San Bernardino has a program that they've been running for a little bit of time, and they're exposing students K through 12 but really starting in kindergarten. One is the exposure Thio. What a job Looks like Andi actually have. I've gone down to that local area and I've had three opportunity to see you know, second graders in a health care facility, Basically that they have on campus, built in on dear going from one workstation as a second grader, Uh, looking at what those skills would be and what that job would entail from a nurse to a Dr Teoh physician's assistant in really looking at what that is. Um you know, obviously they're not getting the training that the doctor gets, but they are getting the exposure of what that would be. Andi, I think that is amazing. And I think it's the right place to start. Um, it was really interesting because I left. This was pre covet, but I jumped on the plane to come back up north. I was thinking to myself, How do we get this to all school district in California, where we see that opportunity, um, to expose jobs and skill sets to kids throughout the system and develop the skill set so that they do understand that they have an opportunity. >>We're here at Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. We have educators. We have, um, students. We have industry and employers and government together. What's your advice to them all watching and listening about the future of work. Let's work force. What can people do? What do you think you're enabling? What can maybe the private sector help with And what are you trying to do? Can you share your thoughts on that? Because we have a range from the dorm room to the boardroom here at this event. Love to get your thoughts on the workforce development view of this. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the mix. I mean, I think it's going to take industry to lead A in a lot of ways, in terms of understanding what their needs are and what their needs are today and what they will be tomorrow. I think it takes education, toe listen, and to understand and labor and workforce development also listen and understand what those needs will look like. And then how do we move systems? How do we move systems quickly? How do we move systems in a way that meets those needs? How do we, uh, put money into systems where the most need is, but also looking at trends? What is that trend going to look like in two years? What does that train gonna look like in five years. But that's again listening to those employers. Um, it's also the music community based organizations. I think, obviously some of our best students are also linked to CBS. And one way or another, it may be for services. It maybe for, uh, faith based. It may be anything, but I think we also need to bring in the CBS is Well, ah, lot of outreach goes through those systems in conjunction with, but I think that's the key component is to make sure that our employers are heard on. But they sit at the table like you said to the boardroom of understanding, and I think bringing students into that so that they get a true understanding of what that looks like a well, um, is a key piece of this. >>So one of the things I want to bring up with you is maybe a bit more about the research side of it. But, um, John Markoff, who was a former New York Times reporter with author of the book What the Dormouse, said It was a book about the counter culture of the sixties and the computer revolution, and really there was about how government defense spending drove the computer revolution that we now saw with Apple and PC, and then the rest is history in California has really participated. Stanford, uh, Berkeley and the University of California School system and all the education community colleges around it. That moment, the enablement. And now you're seeing space kind of bringing that that are a lot of research coming in and you eat a lot of billionaires putting money in. You got employers playing a role. You have this new focus space systems, cybersecurity, defending and making it open and and not congested and peaceful is going to enable quickly new inflection points for opportunities. E want to get your thoughts on that? Because California is participate in drove these revolutions that created massive value This next wave seems to be coming upon us. >>Yeah, absolutely. And again, Nazis covered again as too much of ah starting point to this. But I think that is also an opportunity to actually, because I think one of the things that we were seeing seven months ago was a skill shortage, and we still see the skills shortage, obviously. But I think a key piece to that is we saw people shortage. Not only was it skills shortage, but we didn't have enough people really to fill positions in addition to and I think that people also felt they were already paying the bills and they were making ends meet and they didn't have the opportunities. Thio get additional skills This again is where we're looking at. You know that our world has changed. It changed in the sixties based on what you're you're just expressing in terms of California leading the way. Let's like California lead the way again in developing a system from which labor, workforce development with our universities are, you know, are amazing universities and community college system and structure of how do we get students back into school? You know, a lot of graduates may already have a degree, but how do they now take a skill so that they already have and develop that further with the idea that they those jobs have changed? Whales have a lot of folks that don't have a degree, and that's okay. But how do we make that connection to a system that may have failed? Ah, lot of our people over the years, um, and our students who didn't make it through the school system. How do we develop in adult training school? How do we develop contract education through our community college system with our employer sets that we developed cohorts within those systems of of workers that have amazing talents and abilities to start to fill these needs? And I think that's the key components of hearing Agency, Labor, Workforce Development Agency. We work with our community. Colleges are UCS in our state universities t develop and figure that piece out, and I think it is our opportunity for the future. >>That's such a great point. I want to call that out This whole opportunity to retrain people that are out there because these air new jobs, I think that's a huge opportunity, and and I hope you keep building and investing in those programs. That's that's really worth calling out. Thank you for doing that. And, yeah, it's a great opportunity. Thes jobs they pay well to cyber security is a good job, and you don't really need to have that classical degree. You can learn pretty quickly if you're smart. So again, great call out there question for you on geography, Um, mentioned co vid we're talking about Covic. Virtualization were virtual with this conference. We couldn't be in person. People are learning virtually, but people are starting to relocate virtually. And so one observation that I have is the space state that California is there space clusters of areas where space people hang out or space spaces and whatnot. Then you got, like, the tech community cybersecurity market. You know, Silicon Valley is a talented in these hubs, and sometimes cyber is not always in the same hubs of space. Maybe Silicon Valley has some space here, Um, and some cyber. But that's not generally the case. This is an opportunity potentially to intersect. What's your thoughts on this? Because this is This is something that we're seeing where your space has historical, you know, geography ease. Now, with borderless communication, the work boat is not so much. You have to move the space area. You know what I'm saying? So okay. What's your thoughts on this? How do you guys look at this? Is on your radar On how you're viewing this this dynamic? >>It's absolute on our radar, Like you said, you know, here we are talking virtually on and, you know, 75% of all of our staff currently in some of our department that 80% of our staff are now virtual. Um you know, seven months ago, uh, we were not were government again being slow move, we quickly transitioned. Obviously, Thio being able to have a tele work capacity. We know employers move probably even quickly, more quickly than we did, but we see that as an opportunity for our rural areas. Are Central Valley are north state um, inland Empire that you're absolutely correct. I mean, if you didn't move to a city or to a location for which these jobs were really housed, um, you didn't have an opportunity like you do today. I think that's a piece that we really need to work with our education partners on of to be able to see how much this has changed. Labor agency absolutely recognizes this. We are investing funding in the Central Valley. We're investing funding in the North State and empire to really look a youth populations of how the new capacity that we have today is gonna be utilized for the future for employers. But we also have to engage our universities around. This is well, but mostly are employers. I know that they're already very well aware. I know that a lot of our large employers with, um, Silicon Valley have already done their doing almost 100% tele work policies. Um, but the affordability toe live in rural areas in California. Also, it enables us to have, ah, way thio make products more affordable is, well, potentially in the future. But we want to keep California businesses healthy and whole in California. Of course, on that's another way we can We can expand and keep California home to our 40 plus million people, >>most to a great, great work. And congratulations for doing such a great job. Keep it up. I gotta ask about the governor. I've been following his career since he's been office. A za political figure. Um, he's progressive. He's cutting edge. He likes toe rock the boat a little bit here and there, but he's also pragmatic. Um, you're starting to see government workers starting to get more of a tech vibe. Um um just curious from your perspective. How does the governor look at? I mean, the old, almost the old guard. But like you know, used to be. You become a lawyer, become a lawmaker Now a tech savvy lawmaker is a premium candidates, a premium person in government, you know, knowing what COBOL is. A start. I mean, these are the things. As we transform and evolve our society, we need thinkers who can figure out which side the streets, self driving cars go on. I mean, who does that? I mean, it's a whole another generation off thinking. How does the Governor how do you see this developing? Because this is the challenge for society. How does California lead? How do you guys talk about the leadership vision of Why California and how will you lead the future? >>Absolutely no governor that I'm aware of that I've been around for 26 27 years of workforce development has led with an innovation background, as this governor has a special around technology and the use of technology. Uh, you know, he's read a book about the use of technology when he was lieutenant governor, and I think it's really important for him that we, as his his staff are also on the leading edge of technology. I brought a badge. I'll systems. Earlier, when I was under the Brown administration, we had moved to where I was at a time employment training panel. We moved to an agile system and deported that one of the first within within the state to do that and coming off of an old legacy system that was an antique. Um, I will say it is challenging. It's challenging on a lot of levels. Mostly the skill sets that are folks have sometimes are not open to a new, agile system to an open source system is also an issue in government. But this governor, absolutely. I mean, he has established three Office of Digital Innovation, which is part of California and department technology, Um, in partnership with and that just shows how much he wants. Thio push our limits to make sure that we are meeting the needs of Californians. But it's also looking at, you know, Silicon Valley being at the heart of our state. How do we best utilize systems that already there? How do we better utilize the talent from those those folks is well, we don't always pay as well as they dio in the state. But we do have great benefit packages. Everybody does eso If anybody's looking for a job, we're always looking for technology. Folks is well on DSO I would say that this governor, absolute leads in terms of making sure that we will be on cutting edge of technology for the nation, >>you know, and, you know, talk about pay. I mean, I know it's expensive to live in some parts of California, but there's a huge young population that wants a mission driven job and serving, um, government for the governments. Awesome. Ah, final parting question for you, Stuart, is, as you look at, um, workforce. Ah, lot of people are passionate about this, and it's, you know, you you can't go anywhere without people saying, You know, we got to do education this way and that way there's an opinion everywhere you go. Cybersecurity is a little bit peaked and focused, but there are people who are paying attention to education. So I have to ask you, what creative ways can people get involved and contribute to workforce development? Whether it's stem underrepresented minorities, people are looking for new, innovative ways to contribute. What advice would you give these people who have the passion to contribute to the next cyber workforce. >>Yeah, I appreciate that question, because I think is one of the key components. But my secretary, Julie Sue, secretary of Labor and Workforce Development Agency, talks about often, and a couple of us always have these conversations around. One is getting people with that passion to work in government one or on. I brought it up community based organizations. I think I think so many times, um, that we didn't work with our CBS to the level of in government we should. This administration is very big on working with CBS and philanthropy groups to make sure that thing engagement those entities are at the highest level. So I would say, You know, students have opportunities. Thio also engage with local CBS and be that mission what their values really drives them towards Andi. That gives them a couple of things to do right. One is to look at what ways that we're helping society in one way or another through the organizations, but it also links them thio their own mission and how they could develop those skills around that. But I think the other piece to that is in a lot of these companies that you are working with and that we work with have their own foundations. So those foundations are amazing. We work with them now, especially in the new administration. More than we ever have, these foundations are really starting to help develop are strategies. My secretary works with a large number of foundations already. Andi, when we do is well in terms of strategy, really looking at, how do we develop young people's attitudes towards the future but also skills towards the future? >>Well, you got a pressure cooker of a job. I know how hard it is. I know you're working hard, appreciate you what you do and and we wish you the best of luck. Thank you for sharing this great insight on workforce development. And you guys working hard. Thank you for what you do. Appreciate it. >>Thank you so much. Thistle's >>three cube coverage and co production of the space and cybersecurity supposed in 2020 Cal Poly. I'm John for with silicon angle dot com and the Cube. Thanks for watching

(upbeat music) >> Facilitator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with other leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Java is the world's most popular programming language. And it remains the leading application development platform. But what's the status of Java? What a customers doing? And very importantly, what is Oracle's and the community strategy with respect to Java? Welcome everybody to this Java power panel on theCUBE. I'm your host, Dave Vellante. Manish Gupta here, he's the Vice President of Global Marketing at Java for Oracle, Donald Smith is also on the panel, and he's the Senior Director of Product Management at Oracle and we're joined by David Floyd who is a CTO of Wikibon Research and has done a number of research activities on this very topic. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Manish, I want to start with you. Can you help us understand really what dig into Oracle strategy with respect to Java. The technology, the licensing, the support. How has that evolved over time? Take us through that. >> Dave, with 51 billion JVMs deployed worldwide, Java has truly cemented its position as the language of innovation and the technology world. There's no question about that. In fact, I like to say it's really the language of empowerment. Given the the impact it has had numerous applications ranging from the Mars Rover to genomics and everything in between. As Oracle acquired sign over 10 years ago, it's really kept it front of mind, two aspects of what we want to do with the technology and the platform. The first one was to ensure there was broad accessibility to the technology and the platform for anybody that wanted to benefit from it. And the second one was to ensure that the ecosystem remained vibrant and thriving throughout. I managed to do both. And underpinning these two objectives were really three pillars of our strategy. The first one was around trust, ensuring that openness and transparency of the technology was as was before continued to be the case going forward. The second element of that within the trust pillar was to ensure that as enterprises invested in the technology that investment was protected, it was not, you invest and you lose over a period of time in a backward compatibility, interoperability, certifications, were all foundational to the platform itself to the features, to the innovation moving forward. And more recently as we have rethought to the support, the licensing and the overall structure of the pricing that we have ensured that ultimately the trust comes along in those dimensions as well. So the launch of the Java subscription came along with, pay as you go model, it's a transparent pricing structure and discuss structure published on the website. So you can go and see what it would cost for the desktop on servers or cloud deployment. So those were the things that made kind of the first pillar happen. The second one was Dunno innovation. Over the last 25 years, Java has stood the test of time. It has delivered the needs of today while preparing for the future. And that remains the case. It is not something that has sort of focused on the fat of the day and the hot thing for the day, but really more important that it is prepared to deal with the mission critical, massive scale deployments that can run for years, for decades, in some cases. And keeping that in mind, Oracle has continued to put more and more technology into the open source world with every release that comes out, you can see 80 plus percent of the contributions come from Oracle. So that's the second pillar around innovation. And the third piece of the strategy has been around predictability. Ensuring that Java, the technology and platform perform as advertised, and that goes into the feature releases, it goes into the release process, it goes into the fact that you were broadly within the open JDK environment for developing and executing the roadmap. From a CIO standpoint, it's important to know that the technology used to develop your applications has talent around. And your, if you're going to develop something like Java, you'll find the right Java engineers to do the job. That is not a question, right? And so that's part of predictability. And finally, again with the change in the six months release cadence that came about three years ago, with the release of Java 10, we've really made sure that it's not, no, a bunch of things come about. You don't know when they're going to be released, but you know, like clockwork, you'll have a new Java list every six months. And that's been the case every March and September, since Java 10, you've had a new release of Java with certain features that come up and we just launched Java 15. So trust innovation predictability, have really been the three pillars on which we've executed the strategy for Java. >> Excellent, thank you for that intro, and we're going to get into it now. I'm glad you mentioned the sun acquisition. I said at the time that Java was the linchpin of that acquisition, many people, of course, we looked at the integration piece with the hardware, but it was really Java and the capabilities that it brings. And of course, a lot of Oracle software written in Java and not the least of which is a fusion. But now let's get into the components of this. And I want to talk a little bit about the methodology of this and going to call on you David Floria. But essentially my understanding is that Wikibon went through and David, you led this, you did a technical deep dive, which you always do, did a number of in depth interviews with Java customers. And then of course you also did a web survey and then you built from that data and economic model. So you can try to understand the sort of dimensions of the financials if you will. So what were your key findings there? >> So the key findings were that Java was in a good state that people were happy with the Java. The second key finding is that the business case itself for using the Oracle services, the subscription services was good. It didn't mean to say that that wasn't for every company, the right way to do it, but there was a very good return on that. And the third area was that there was a degree of confidence that the new way of doing things, the six-month cycle, as opposed to the three-year cycle was overall a benefit to the rate of change, the ability for them to introduce new features quickly. >> Okay, well, I mean, you know, and I read that research. And to me my takeaways where I saw the continued relevance of Java, which is kind of goes without saying, but a lot of times it gets lost in the headlines. That subscription piece is key. We're going to get into some of the economics as to how that affects customers and it saves you money. And the other piece was the roadmap becoming more transparent. And I don't want to dig into that a little bit, but before we do, let's get into that innovation component Manish, mentioned that several times, but Don, I want to go to you guys. We have a slide on the various components of the innovation. If you would bring this up and Don I wonder if you could talk to this and give us some examples if you would. >> Yeah, sure. So we were the number one development platform for the last 25 years. We want to be the number one development platform for the next 25 years. And in order to do that, we have to be constantly innovating and constantly innovating not only the business side in terms of the subscription and the support offerings and commercial features like Manish was talking about, but also the platform in general. And so the way we like to talk about innovation as we break it down by these pillars that you can see on the slide. And so the first pillar is continuous improvements to the language. So this is watching developers trying to write the same piece of code over and over again, and us asking, can we make you more efficient? Can we give you more language features that reduce the amount of boilerplate that you have to write? The second pillar is a project that we just announced a few months ago called Leyden. And the idea with Leyden is addressing the longterm pinpoints of Java slow startup time and time to peak performance. So if you go back 10 years ago, everybody knows about Java as an enterprise platform, Java EE application servers. They all had the notion of being very long lived. And so Java at that time would be optimized towards long lived applications, startup, and performance. Where if it took a little while to get there, it didn't matter as long as when it got there, it was super fast. And so we're trying to get that peak performance faster in the world of microservices. In a similar vein with project loom, we're looking at making concurrency simple again, looking at how developers are doing more reactive style programming and realizing that the threading model needs to be rethought from the ground up, that project is looking really, really good. Then we have project Panama. Project Panama is all about making it easier to connect Java with native libraries. Valhalla is all about improving, there's a couple of benefits, but it's all about improving memory density and being able to access and iterate and operate over primitive data types at super fast speeds by better optimizing how that information is stored in memory. And then the other pillar of the final pillar that we have been working on from an innovation perspective is ZGC. We introduced a new garbage collector technology a few years ago, G1GCE a generational garbage collector with the eye towards making garbage collection in Java pause lists. So if you, again, if you go back in time and look at the history of Java, memory management is awesome, but there's always that cost and risk of a garbage collection cycle, taking a bit of time away from a critical application. And ZGC is all about getting rid of that. So lots of innovation, lots of different pillars going on right now. >> Awesome, I'm impressed. There's something after Valhalla. I thought that was Nirvana. (laughing) But now, and these are all open source projects, right? And you guys obviously provide committers, there are other people in the open source world who provide that, is that correct Don? >> Yeah, that's correct. We have about 80% of the contributions in open JDK. We are the stewards of open JDK and lead the project. Most of the pillars I talked about here are you know Oracle folks working on that. >> Awesome. Okay, let's get into some of the data. David, I want to come back to you and talk about some of the survey results guys, if you bring up that next slide. Why David, why do people upgrade? What are the drivers? It's really talks to the large companies and what's different from the small company or mid-size companies? What are the takeaways here? >> David: Well, so this is interesting, and as you might expect, large enterprises, have very concerned about application stability. Whereas midsize or enterprises are much more concerned about the performance, making sure that the performance is good. They are both concerned about reliable performance and security, but it's interesting that from a regulation point of view, mid-size companies really want to make sure that they are obeying the regulations, that they are meeting those. Whereas larger organizations usually have their own security and regulation functions looking very hard at these things. So that looking less to the platform to provide those than their own people. >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think the midsize organizations don't have as many people running around taking care of security and it's harder for them to keep up with the edicts of the organization. So they want to stay more current. Don, I wonder if you can add anything to this data from an innovation standpoint. >> Yeah, well, and from a product management standpoint, and what we see here is when you look at just going from fortune 500 to global 2000, you see things that are important to one or less so than the other. You can extrapolate that all the way down to a small company or a startup. And that's why providing the most flexibility in terms of an offering to allow people to decide what, when, where, and how they would be going to upgrade their software so they can do it when they want, and on their own terms. You can see that that becomes really important. And also making sure that we're providing innovation in a broad way so that it'll appeal both to the enterprise and again extrapolating that forward down to even very small startups. >> You know, David, the other thing that struck me in the data, if we bring up that other piece is the upgrade strategy, and there was a stark difference between large enterprises and midsize organizations. Talk to this data, if you would. >> Yes, this is again, a pretty stark difference between them. When you're looking at large enterprises, they really wants stability and they don't want to upgrade so often. Whereas mid-size enterprises, are much more willing to both upgrade on a regular cadence and really have a much more up-to-date, or have always have the latest software. They're driving smaller applications, but they're much more agile about their approach to it. Again, emphasizing what Don was saying about the smaller enterprises wanting a different strategy and a different way of doing things than large enterprises. >> So Manish this says to me that you got it right from a strategy standpoint. I mean, any color you can add here. >> Yeah, it's very intuitive that whether you're a large organization, a mid-sized enterprise or a small business, right? You face competitive pressures, your dynamics are unique. What you're able to do with the resources, what you desire to do at the pace that is appropriate for your environment, are really unique to you, and to try to force one model across any one size or across any set of dynamics is just not appropriate. So we've always felt that giving the enterprises and the organization, the ability to move at the pace of their business is the right approach. And so when we designed the Oracle Java SE subscription, we truly have that front and center in our thought process. And that structure seems to be working well. >> David, what I like about the way you do research is you actually build an economic model. A lot of these business value projects. I know this well, having been in the business a long time, they'll go out to ask the customer what they got, and then the customer said, "Well, I got a 111% ROI, and boom, that's what it is. You actually construct an economic model, you bring in rules of thumb, it allows you to do what ifs you can test that model and calibrate it against the real world. So I commend you on that. You've done a lot of hard work there, but bottom line at forests, I mean, let's bring up the economics. I mean, that's what people ultimately want to know. Does this save me money? What's the bottom line here? >> Yeah. Yes, that's a very important question. And the way we go about it is to ask the questions so that we can extract from those questions, how much effort it took, for example, to upgrade things, how much effort it took for important applications and not so important applications. So we have a very detailed model driven by the survey itself and in the back of the research, I'm a great believer that you should be able to follow exactly what the research said, what the survey said and how it was applied to the model. So, and what were you focused on was, what was the return of using the Java subscription service or taking an upgrade every six months? Those were the two ways that we looked at it. And for large enterprises, the four-year costs for the enterprise was $11 million, but for taking the additional subscription service, and this was well well covered, the payback is within a year, well covered by the lower costs of managing in a lot of systems and environment. And we found a very similar result on those midsize services. There, it was 3 million, and again, they got that back the year in terms of payback. So, but that's one alternative. There is another alternative that may be worthwhile the extra money if you really want to be up-to-date and or if you want to drive a much more aggressive strategy for your organization. >> So these are huge numbers. I mean, he's talking about 30% savings on average for large and mid-sized enterprises in the percentage terms, but the absolute dollars are actually enormous. So, you know, large companies here, we're talking about $20 billion enterprises with 500 or more Java applications. And mid-size is, you're talking about a couple, two, $3 billion companies. Manish, what are you saying in the customer base in terms of the economics? >> Yeah, you know anytime an organization is looking at an offering and a solution, they want to make sure just giving them the value. And we all know that the priorities of businesses have, they want to focus on that. Managing the Java estate is important, but is it the thing where they want to invest the dollars? And if they are investing the dollars, are they getting the return? We find that if you can give the enterprises an ability where they can see the return, the cost is right for them. And if you can mirror that and you can map it also with reduce risk, then you put the right formula. And with the subscription, they're able to not only see the cost savings that the model indicates clearly, but they're also able to reduce the risk in terms of security protection and other things. So it's a really, really good combination for the enterprises. >> Well, thank you, I wonder Manish, if you could bring us home here and just kind of summarize from your thoughts, everything you've heard today, what are the key takeaways? >> You know Java has been around for 25 years, and we certainly believe it's really positioned well for what's required today. And perhaps more importantly, what is needed for the next decade and for the next 25 years. Having now served thousands of customers with the Java subscription, it's clear that it is meeting the needs of fortune 10 organizations all the way down to a 5% development house, for example. What we're hearing from across the board is really Java has been the go to platform and it continues to be the go to platform for mission critical development and deployment. However, the complexity as the Java estate becomes large when you've got tens to hundreds, in some cases over a thousand applications running across the enterprise, that complexity can be daunting. And the Java subscription is really serving the needs in three ways. One, it's getting them the best of class support from Oracle, which is a steward of Java, the company that is generating over 80% of innovation with every single release. The second thing they're getting the business flexibility. So they can move at the pace that works for them. And therapies is as a business model as indicated that they're getting it at a lower cost while having your list. So the combination of these things is the reason why we're seeing very high renewal rates, why we're seeing thousands of organization take it over. And I want to wrap it up by saying one final thing, that you can count on Oracle to be the transparent, to be the right steward or both technology innovation, as well as to ensuring the support for the vast ecosystem whether it's libraries, frameworks, user groups, educational services and so on. So Java is here, has been here for the enterprise, large and small, and it's ready for the next generation as well. >> Great, thank you for that. Well, one more question. What's the call to action? If I'm a mid-sized company or a large company, I've made investments in Java, what, what should I do next? >> I would say, take a look at the Oracle subscription. It will reduce your rates. It'll save you a cost and it'll give you a lower risk parameter for your organization. >> Great, nice and crisp, I like it. If you like, if you guys don't object, I'm going to give you my summary. I've been taking notes this whole time and so, we've explored two options. Customers can do it yourself or go with the subscription on a regular cadence. It's very clear to me that that Java remains relevant as we set up top. It's the world's most popular programming language we know about all that. The ecosystem is really moving fast. Of course, with the stewardship of Oracle cloud microservices, the development of, of modern applications. I think that the directional changes that Manish you guys and, and Don and Oracle have made were really the right call. The research that David you did, shows that it's serving customers better. It lowers costs, it's cutting down risk particularly for the mid-sized companies that maybe are, or don't have the security infrastructure and the talent to go chase those problems. And I love the roadmap piece. The more transparent roadmap really is going to give the industry and the community much more confidence to invest and move forward. So guys, thanks very much for coming on this CUBE Java power panel. It was great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, I thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante, for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! Covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. Hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello everyone. Welcome to the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, put on by Cal Poly and hosted with SiliconANGLE theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California for a virtual conference. Couldn't happen in person this year, I'm John Furrier, your host. The intersection of space and cybersecurity, obviously critical topics, great conversations. We've got a great guest here to talk about the addressing the cybersecurity workforce gap. And we have a great guest, and a feature speaker, Stewart Knox, the undersecretary with California's Labor and Workforce Development Office. Stewart, thanks for joining us today. >> Thank you so much, John. I appreciate your time today and listening to a little bit of our quandaries with making sure that we have the security that's necessary for the state of California and making sure that we have the workforce that is necessary for cybersecurity in space. >> Great. I'd love to get started. I've got a couple of questions for you, but first take a few minutes for an opening statement to set the stage. >> Sure, realizing that in California, we lead the nation in much of cybersecurity based on Department of Defense contractors within the state of California, leading the nation with over 160 billion dollars within the industry just here in California alone and having over 800,000 plus workers full time employment in the state of California is paramount for us to make sure that we face defense manufacturers, approximately 700,000 jobs that are necessary to be filled. There's over 37,000 vacancies that we know of in California, just alone in cybersecurity. And so we look forward to making sure that California Workforce Development Agency is leading the charge to make sure that we have equity in those jobs and that we are also leading in a way that brings good jobs to California and to the people of California, a good education system that is developed in a way that those skills are necessarily met for the employers here in California, and the nation. >> One of the exciting things about California is obviously look at Silicon Valley, Hewlett Packard and the garage story, history, space, it's been a space state, many people recognize California. You mentioned defense contractors. It's well rooted with history, just breakthroughs, bases, technology companies in California. And now you've got technology. This is the cybersecurity angle. Take a minute to give some more commentary to that because that's really notable, and as the workforce changes, these two worlds are coming together and sometimes they're in the same place, sometimes they're not. This is super exciting and a new dynamic that's driving opportunities. Could you share some color commentary on that dynamic? >> Absolutely. And you're so correct. I think in California, we lead the nation in the way that we develop programs, that our companies lead in the nation in so many ways around cyberspace, cybersecurity in so many different areas, for which in the Silicon Valley is just such a leader and those companies are good, qualified companies to do so. Obviously one of the places we play a role is to make sure that those companies have a skilled workforce. And also that the security of those systems are in place for our defense contractors and for the feeder companies, those outlying entities that are providing such key resources to those companies are also leading on a cutting edge for the future. Also again, realizing that we need to expand our training and skills to make sure that those California companies continue to lead, is just such a great initiative. And I think through apprenticeship training programs, and looking at our community college systems, I think that we will continue to lead the nation as we move forward. >> You know, we've had many conversations here in this symposium virtually, certainly around the everyday life of a consumer is impacted by space. You know, we get our car service, Uber, Lyft, we have maps, we have all this technology that was born out of defense contracts and R and D that really changed generations and created a lot of great societal value. Okay, now with space kind of going to the next generation, it's easier to get stuff into space. The security of the systems is now going to be not only paramount for quality of life, but defending that, and the skills are needed in cybersecurity to defend that. And the gap is there. What can we do to highlight the opportunities for career paths? It used to be the day where you get a mechanical engineering degree or aerospace and you graduate and you go get a job, not anymore. There's a variety of paths, career-wise. What can we do to highlight this career path? >> Absolutely correct. And I think it starts, you know, K through 12 system. And I know a lot of the work that (indistinct) and other entities are doing currently. This is where we need to bring our youth into an age where they're teaching us, right, as we become older, on the uses of technology, but it's also teaching where the levels of those education can take them, K through 12, but it's also looking at how the community college system links to that. And then the university system links above and beyond, but it's also engaging our employers. You know, one of the key components, obviously as the employers play a role, for which we can start to develop strategies that best meet their needs quickly. I think that's one of the comments we hear the most, at Labor Agency is how we don't provide a change as fast as we should, especially in technology. You know, we buy computers today and they're outdated tomorrow. It's the same with the technology that's in those computers is that those students are going to be the leaders within that to really develop how those structures are in place. So K through 12 is probably our primary place to start, but also continuing that past the K-12 system. And I bring up the employers and I bring them up in a way, because many times when we've had conversations with employers around what their skills needs were and how do we develop those better? One of the pieces of that, that I think really should be recognized, many times they recognize that they wanted a four year degree, potentially, or a five year or six year degree. But then when we really looked at the skillsets, someone coming out of the community college system could meet those skillsets. And I think we need to have those conversations to make sure, not that they shouldn't be continuing their education. They absolutely should. But how do we get those skillsets built into this into a K-12 plus the two year plus the four year person? >> Yeah, I love the democratization of these new skills, because again, there's no pattern matching 'cause they weren't around before, right? So you got to look at the exposure, to your point, K through 12 exposure, but then there's an exploration piece of it, whether it's community college or whatever progression, and sometimes it's nonlinear, right? I mean, people are learning different ways, combining the exposure and the exploration. That's a big topic. Can you share your view on this? Because this now opens up more doors for people, choice, you got new avenues, you got online, I can get a cloud computing degree now from Amazon and walk in and help. I can be, you know, security clearance possibly in college. So, you know, you get exposure. Is there certain things you see, is it early on? Middle school? And then obviously the exploration, those are two important concepts. Can you unpack that a little bit, exposure and exploration of skills? >> Absolutely, and I think this takes place not only in the K-12 system, but it takes place in our community colleges and our four year universities is that, that connection with those employers is such a key component, that if there's a way we could build in internships, work experiences, what we call on the job training programs, apprenticeship training, pre-apprenticeship training programs, into a design where those students at all levels are getting an exposure to the opportunities within the space and cybersecurity avenue. I think that right there alone will start to solve a problem of having 37 plus thousand openings at any one time in California. Also, I get that there's a burden on employers to do that. And I think that's a piece that we have to acknowledge, and I think that's where education can play a larger role. That's a place we at Labor Workforce Development Agency play a role with our apprenticeship training programs, our pre-apprenticeship training programs. I could go on all day of all of our training programs that we have within the state of California. Many of the list of your partners on this endeavor are partners with Employment Training Panel, which I used to be the director of the Brown administration of. That program alone does incumbent worker training. And so that also is an exposure place where a worker may be, you know, I use the old adage of sweeping the floors one day and potentially writing a large portion of the business, within years. But it's that exposure that that employee gets through training programs, and acknowledging those skill sets and where their opportunities are, is what's valid and important. I think that's where our students, we need to play a larger role than the K-12 system, really, to get that pushed out there. >> It's funny, here in California, you were the robotics clubs in high school are like a varsity sport, you're seeing kids exposed early on with programming, but it's, you know, this whole topic of cybersecurity and space intersection around workforce, and the gaps in the skills, it's not just for the young, certainly the young generation's got to be exposed to what the careers could be and what the possible jobs and societal impact and contributions, what they could be, but also it's people who are already out there. You know, you have retraining, re-skilling, this plays an important role. I know you guys do a lot of thinking on this as the undersecretary, you have to look at this because you know, you don't want to have a label "old and antiquated" systems. And a lot of them are, and they're evolving and they're being modernized by digital transformation. So what does the role of retraining and skill development for these programs play? Can you share what you guys are working on and your vision for that? >> Absolutely. That's a great question. 'Cause I think that is where we play a large role, obviously in California and with COVID-19 is we are faced with today that we've never seen before. At least in my 27 years of running programs, similar to all workforce and economic development, we are having such a large number of people displaced currently that it's unprecedented, we've got employment rates to where we are. We're really looking at how do we take, and we're also going to see industries not return to the level for which they stood at one point in time, you know, entertainment industries, restaurants, all of the alike, really looking at how do we move people from those jobs that were middle skill jobs to upper skill jobs, but the pay points maybe weren't great, potentially. And there's an opportunity for us to skill people into jobs that are there today. It may take training, obviously, but we have dollars to do that, generally, especially within our K-12 and our K-14 systems and our universities. But we really want to look at where those skillsets are at, currently. And we want to take people from that point in time where they sit today, and try to give them that exposure to your point earlier question is how do we get them exposed to a system for which there are job with means that pay well, with benefit packages, with companies that care about their employees. 'Cause that's what our goal is. >> You know, I don't know if you have some visibility on this or an opinion, but one of the observations that I've had and talk to whether it's a commercial or public sector, is that with COVID, there's been a lot of awareness of the situation. We're adequately prepared. There's some readiness, but as everyone kind of deals with it, they're also starting to think about what to do post-COVID as we come out of it, a growth strategy for a company or someone's career. People are starting to have that on the top of their minds. So I have to ask you, is there anything that you see that they say, "Okay, certain areas, maybe not doubling down on other areas, we're going to double down on because we've seen some best practices on a trajectory of value for coming out of COVID with, you know, well-armed skills or certain things." 'Cause that's what a lot of people are thinking right now. And certainly cyber is, I mean, how many jobs are open? So you got "Well that that's kind of maybe not something to double down on, here are areas we see that are working." Can you share your current visibility into that dynamic? >> Absolutely. Another great question. One of the key components that we look at at Labor Workforce Development Agency is to look at the industries in growth modes and ones that are in decline modes. Now COVID has changed that greatly. We were in a growth mode for the last seven, eight years. We saw almost every industry, minus a few, that were all in growth in one way or another, but obviously that has changed. Our landscape is completely different than we saw six, seven months ago. So today we're looking at cybersecurity, obviously with 30 plus thousand job openings, we are looking at Defense Department contractors, obviously, with federal government contracts. We are looking at the supply chains within those. We are looking at healthcare, which has always been one of obviously our large, one of our large entities that has grown over the years. But it's also changed with COVID-19. We're looking at the way protective equipment is manufactured and the way that that will continue to grow over time, we're looking at the service industry. I mean, it will come back, but it won't come back the way we've seen it probably in the past, but where are the opportunities that we develop programs that we are making sure that the skill sets of those folks are transferable to other industries. We have one of the issues that we face constantly in Labor and Workforce Development programs is understanding that over the period of time, especially in today's world, again, with technology, that people's skillsets, we don't see as in my parents' day that you worked at a job for 45 years and you retired at one job potentially. That's been gone for 25 years, but now at the pace for which we are seeing systems change, this is going to continue to amp up, and I will say, youth of today, my 12 year old nephew is in the room next door to me, in a classroom right now online. And so, you know, it's a totally different atmosphere and he's enjoying actually being at home and learning from an all online system. I would not have been able to learn that way, but I think we do see through the K through 12 system, the way we're moving, people's interests will change. And I think that they will start to see things in a different way than we have in the past. They were forced systems. We are an old system, been around since the 30s. Some even we'll say prior to the 30s, came out of the Great Depression in some ways. And that system, we have to change the way we develop our programs. It should not be constant and it should be an evolving system. >> It's interesting. A lot of the conversations between the private and public partnerships and industry, you're seeing an agile mindset where it's a growth mindset, it's also a reality-based mindset and certainly space kind of forces this conversation with cybersecurity of being faster, faster, more relevant, more modern. And you mentioned some of those points, and with COVID impact, the workforce development is certainly going to put a lot of pressure on faster learning. And then you mentioned online learning. This has become a big thing. It's not just putting education online per se. There's new touchpoints. You know, you've got apps, you've got digital. This digital transformation is also accelerating. How do you guys view the workforce development? Because it's going to be open. It's going to be evolving. There's new data coming in and maybe kids don't want to stare at a video conference. Is there some game aspect to it? Is there, how do you integrate these new things that are coming really fast, and it's happening kind of in real time in front of our eyes. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you guys see that because it'll certainly impact their ability to compete for jobs and/or to self-learn. >> Well, I think one of the key components of California is our innovation, right? And so I think one of the things that we pride ourselves in California is around that. That said, that is the piece that I think the Silicon Valley, and then there's many areas in California that have done the same, or tried to do the same, at least in their economy is to build in innovation. And I think that's part of the K through 12 system, with our state universities and our UCs is to be able to bridge that. I think that you, we see that within universities that really instill an innovative approach to teaching, but also instill innovation within their students. I'm not sure we're there yet fully, with our K-12 system, and I think that's a place that either our community colleges could be a bridge to as well. So that's one component of workforce development I think that we look at as being a key piece. You brought up something that's really interesting to me is when you talk about agile, and one of the things that even in state government, this is going to be shocking to you, but we have not been an agile system as well. I think one of the things that the Newsom administration, Governor Newsom's administration has brought is, and when I talk about agile systems, I actually mean agile systems. We've gone from COBOL systems, which are old and clunky, still operating, but at the same time, we're looking at upgrading all of our systems in a way that even in our technology, in the state of California should be matching, the technology that our great state has within our state. So therein lies, it's also challenges of finding the qualified staff that we need in the state of California for all of our systems and servers and everything that we have currently. So, you know, not only are we looking at external users of labor workforce development, but we're looking at internal users, that the way we redevelop our systems so that we are more agile in two different ways. >> You just got me triggered with COBOL. I programmed in the 80s with COBOL, only one credit lab in college. Never touched it again, thank God. But this is the benefit of cloud computing. I think this is at the heart and this is the undertone of the conference and symposium is cloud computing, you can actually leverage existing resources, whether they're legacy systems, because they are running, they're doing a great job and they do a certain workload extremely well. Doesn't make sense to replace if it does a job. You can integrate it and that's what cloud does. This is opening up more and more capabilities and workloads. This is kind of what the space industry is pointing to when they say "We need people that can code and that can solve data problems," not just the computer scientists, but a large range of people, creative, data, science, everything. How does California's workforce solve the needs of America's space industry? This is because it's a space state. How do you see the labor workforce meeting those needs? >> Yeah, I think it's an investment. Obviously it's an investment on our part. It's an investment with our college partners. It's an investment from our K-12 system to make sure that we are allocating dollars in a way through meeting the demand of industry. And we do look at industry-specific around their needs, obviously this is a large one. We want to be very receptive, and work with our employers and our employee groups to make sure that we meet that demand. I think it's putting our money where our mouth is and designing and working with employer groups to make sure that the training meets their needs. It's also working with our employer groups to make sure that the employees are taken care of and that equity is built within the systems, that we keep people employed in California, and they're able to afford a home and they're able to afford a life here in California, but it's also again and I brought up the innovation component. I think it's building an innovation within systems for which they are employers, but are also our incoming employees and our incumbent workers. And you brought those up earlier, people that are already employed and people that are unemployed currently with a skill set that might match up is how do we bridge those folks into employment that they maybe have not thought about? We have a whole career network of systems out throughout The City of California with the America's Job Centers of California, and they will be working, and they already are working with a lot of dislocated workers. And one of the key components of that is to really look at how do we take what their current skillset might be, and then expose them to a system for which we have 37 plus thousand job openings, too, and how do we actually get those folks employed? It's paid for potentially through that local Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act funding through our America's Job Centers, to pay for some on the job training. It's to be able to pay for work experiences, it's to be able to pay for internships for students to get that opportunity with our employers and also partnering with our employers that they're paying, obviously a percentage of that too. >> You know, one of the things I've observed over my career, 54 times around the sun is, you know, in the old days, when I was in college and school, you had career, people had the longer jobs, as you mentioned it's not like that anymore. But also I knew someone I'm going to to be in line to get that job, maybe nepotism or things of that nature. Now the jobs have no historical thing or someone worked longer in a job and has more seniority. A lot of these jobs, Stewart, don't have requirements, like no one's done them before. So the ability for someone who is jumping in, either from any college, there's no real, it's all level set, it's a complete upside down script here. It's not like, "Oh, I went to school, therefore I get the job." It can be, anyone can walk into these careers because the jobs are so new. So it's not where you came from or what school you went to or your nationality or gender. The jobs have been democratized. They're not discriminating against people with skills. This opens up more. How do you see that? Because this really is an opportunity for this next generation to be more diverse and to be more contributive because diversity brings expertise and different perspectives. Your thoughts on that. >> Absolutely, and that was one of the things we welcome, obviously. We want to make sure that that everybody is treated equally and that the employers view everyone as an employer of choice, but an employee of choice as well. We've also been looking at, as I mentioned before on the COVID situation, looking at ways that folks that are maybe stuck in jobs that don't have a huge career pathway, or they don't have a pathway out of poverty. I mean, we have a lot of working poor people in the state of California that may now due to COVID lost their employment. This, you know, let's turn back to the old adage, let's turn lemons into lemonade. How do we take those folks and get them employed into jobs that do have a good career pathway? And it's not about just who you knew, or who you might have an in with to get that job. It is based on skills. I think though, that said, we need to have a better way to actually match those jobs up with those employers. And I think those are the ongoing conversations with those employer groups to make sure that, one, that they see those skill sets as valid and important. They're helping design those career sets with us so that they do match up and that we're quickly matching up those close skillsets so that we're not training people for yesterday's skills. >> I think the employer angle's super important, but also the educators as well. One of the things that was asked in another question by the guest, they said, she said, the real question to ask is, how early do you start exposing the next generation? You mentioned K through 12, do you have any data or insight into or intuition or best practice of where that insertion point is, that exposure point? Is it middle school? Is it elementary, honestly, high school, once you're in high school, you got your training wheels are off, you're off to the races, but is there a best practice? What's your thoughts, Stewart, on exposure level to these kinds of new cyber and technical careers? >> Sure, absolutely. I would say kindergarten. We, San Bernardino has a program that they've been running for a little bit of time, and they're exposing students K through 12, but really starting in kindergarten. One is the exposure to what a job looks like. And then actually I've gone down to that local area and I've had the opportunity to see, you know, second graders in a healthcare facility, basically, that they have on campus built-in. And they're going from one workstation as a second grader, looking at what those skills would be and what that job would entail from a nurse to a doctor, to a physician's assistant, and really looking at what that is. You know, obviously they're not getting the training that a doctor gets, but they are getting the exposure of what that would be. And I think that is amazing. And I think it's the right place to start. It was really interesting 'cause as I left, this was pre-COVID, but as I jumped on the plane to come back up north, I was thinking to myself, "How do we get this to all school districts in California where we see that opportunity to expose jobs and skill sets to kids throughout the system and develop those skill sets so that they do understand that they have an opportunity?" >> We are here at Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. We have educators, we have students, we have industry and employers and government together. What's your advice to them all watching and listening about the future of work, this workforce, what can people do? What do you think you're enabling? What can maybe the private sector help with and what are you trying to do? Can you share your thoughts on that? Because we have a range from the dorm room to the boardroom here at this event. I'd love to get your thoughts on the workforce development view of this. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the mix. I mean, I think it's going to take industry to lead, in a lot of ways in terms of understanding what their needs are and what their needs are today and what they will be tomorrow. I think it takes education to listen, and to understand, and labor and workforce development to also listen and understand what those needs will look like. And then how do we move systems? How do we move systems quickly? How do we move systems in a way that meets those needs? How do we put money into systems where the most need is, but also looking at trends? What is that trend going to look like in two years? What is that trend going to look like in five years, (indistinct), again, listening to those employers, it's also listening to the community-based organizations. I think obviously some of our best students are also linked to CBOs in one way or another. It may be for services, it may be for faith-based, it may be anything, but I think we also need to bring in the CBOs as well. A lot of outreach goes through those systems in conjunction with, but I think that's the key component is to make sure that our employers are heard and that they sit at the table, like you said, to the boardroom of understanding, and I think bringing students into that so that they get a true understanding of what that looks like as well, is a key piece of this. >> Stu, one of the things I want to bring up with you is maybe a little bit more about the research side of it, but John Markoff, who was a former New York times reporter, but author of the book, "What the Dormouse Said," it was a book about the counterculture of the 60s and the computer revolution. And really it was about how government defense spending drove the computer revolution that we now saw with Apple and PC. And then the rest is history in California, has really participated, Stanford, the Berkeley, and the University of California school system, and all the education community colleges around it. That moment, the enablement, and now you're seeing space kind of bringing that, a lot of research coming in, need a lot of billionaires putting money in, you've got employers playing a role. You have this new focus, space systems, cybersecurity defending and making it open and, not congested and peaceful, is going to enable quickly, new inflection points for opportunities. I want to get your thoughts on that because California's participated and drove those revolutions, that's created massive value. This next wave seems to be coming upon us. >> Yeah, absolutely. And again, not to use COVID again as too much of a starting point to this, but I think that is also an opportunity to actually, 'cause I think one of the things that we were seeing seven months ago was a skill shortage, and we still see the skill shortage, obviously. But I think a key piece to that is we saw a people shortage. Not only was it skill shortage, but we didn't have enough people really to fill positions in addition, too, and I think that people also felt they were already paying the bills and they were making ends meet and they didn't have the opportunities to get additional skills. This again is where we're looking at, you know, our world has changed. It changed in the 60s based on what you're just expressing in terms of California leading the way. Let's let California lead the way again in developing a system for which labor workforce development with our universities, our amazing universities and community college system structure, of how do we get students back into school? You know, a lot of graduates may already have a degree, but how do they now take a skill set that they already have and develop that further with the idea that those jobs have changed? We also have a lot of folks that don't have a degree, and that's okay, but how do we make that connection to a system that may have failed a lot of our people over the years, and our students who didn't make it through the school system, how do we develop an adult training school? How do we develop contract education through our community college system with our employer sets, that we develop cohorts within the systems of workers that have amazing talents and abilities to start to fill these needs. And I think that's the key components that here at Labor Workforce Development Agency, we work with our community colleges, our UCs and our state universities to develop and figure that piece out. And I think it is our opportunity for the future. >> That's such a great point. I want to call that out, this whole opportunity to retrain people that are out there because these are new jobs. I think that's a huge opportunity and, I hope you keep building and investing in those programs. That's really worth calling out. Thank you for doing that. And yeah, it's a great opportunity to gain these jobs. They pay well, too, cybersecurity's a good job and you don't really need to have that classical degree. You can learn pretty quickly if you're smart. So again, great call out there. A question for you on geography. You mentioned COVID, we're talking about COVID, virtualization, we're virtual with this conference. We couldn't be in person. People are learning virtually, but people are starting to relocate virtually. And so one observation that I have is the space state that California is, there's space clusters of areas where space people hang out, or space spaces and whatnot. Then you got like the tech community, the cybersecurity market, you know, Silicon Valley, you know, the talent is in these hubs. And sometimes cyber's not always in the same hubs as space. Maybe Silicon Valley has some space here, and some cyber, but that's not generally the case. This is an opportunity potentially to intersect. What's your thoughts on this? Because this is something that we're seeing, where space has historical, you know, geographies. Now with borderless communication, the work mode is not so much "You have to move to this space area." You know what I'm saying? So what's your thoughts on this? How do you guys look at, this is on your radar, and how you're viewing this dynamic. >> It's absolutely on our radar. Like you said, you know, here we are, talking virtually, and you know, 75% of all of our staff currently, in some of our departments, it's 80% of our staff, are now virtual. Seven months ago, we were not. Government, again, being slow move, we quickly transitioned, obviously, to being able to have a telework capacity. We know employers moved probably even more quickly than we did, but we see that as an opportunity for our rural areas, our Central Valley, our Northstate, Inland Empire. That you're absolutely correct. I mean, if you didn't move to a city or to a location for which these jobs were really housed, you didn't have an opportunity like you do today. I think that's a piece that we really need to work with our education partners on, to be able to see how much this has changed. Labor Agency absolutely recognizes this. We are investing funding in the Central Valley. We're investing funding in the Northstate and Inland Empire to really look at youth populations, of how the new capacity that we have today is going to be utilized for the future for employers. But we also have to engage our universities around this as well, but mostly our employers. I know that they're already very well aware. I know that a lot of our large employers within Silicon Valley have already done it. They're doing almost 100% telework policies, but the affordability to live in rural areas in California, also enables us to have a way to make products more affordable as well, potentially in the future. But we want to keep California businesses healthy and whole in California, of course. And that's another way we can expand and keep California home to our 40 plus million people. >> Well Stewart, great work and congratulations for doing such a great job. Keep it up. I got to ask you about the governor. I've been following his career since he's been in office as a political figure. He's progressive, he's cutting edge. He likes to rock the boat a little bit here and there, but he's also pragmatic. You're starting to see government workers starting to get more of a tech vibe. Just curious from your perspective, how does the governor look at, I mean, the old, I won't say "old guard," but like, you know, it used to be, you become a lawyer, you become a lawmaker. Now a tech savvy lawmaker is a premium candidate, is a premium person in government. Knowing what COBOL is, is a start. I mean, these are the things that as we transform and evolve our society, we need thinkers who can figure out which side of the streets self driving cars go on. I mean, who does that? It's a whole nother generation of thinking. How does the governor, how do you see this developing? Because this is the challenge for society. How does California lead? How do you guys talk about the leadership vision of why California and how will you lead the future? >> Absolutely. No governor that I'm aware of, and I've been around for 26, 27 years of workforce development, has led with an innovation background as this governor has, especially around technology and the use of technology. You know, he's wrote a book about the use of technology when he was lieutenant governor. And I think it's really important for him that we, as his staff are also on the leading edge of technology. I brought up agile systems earlier. When I was under the Brown administration, we had moved to where I was at the time, Employment Training Panel, we moved to an agile system and deployed that. One of the first within the state to do that and coming off of an old legacy system that was an antique. I will say it is challenging. It's challenging on a lot of levels. Mostly the skill sets that our folks have, sometimes are not open to a new agile system, to an open source system is also an issue in government. But this governor absolutely, I mean, he has established the Office of Digital Innovation, which is part of California Department of Technology, in partnership with, and that just shows how much he wants to push our limits to make sure that we are meeting the needs of Californians. But it's also looking at, you know, Silicon Valley being at the heart of our state, how do we best utilize systems that are already there? How do we better utilize the talent from those folks as well? We don't always pay as well as they do in the state, but we do have great benefit packages, everybody knows. So if anybody's looking for a job, we're always looking for technology folks as well. And so I would say that this governor absolutely leads in terms of making sure that we will be on cutting edge technology for the nation. >> And, you know, talk about pay, I mean, I know it's expensive to live in some parts of California, but there's a huge young population that wants a mission-driven job, and serving the government for the government, it's awesome. A final parting question for you, Stewart, is as you look at the workforce, a lot of people are passionate about this and it's, you know, you can't go anywhere without people saying, you know, "We've got to do education this way, and that way," there's an opinion everywhere you go. Cybersecurity, obviously a little bit peaked and focused, but there are people who are paying attention to education. So I have to ask you what creative ways can people get involved and contribute to workforce development, whether it's STEM, underrepresented minorities, people are looking for new, innovative ways to contribute. What advice would you give these people who have the passion to contribute to the next cyber workforce? >> Yeah, I appreciate that question because I think it's one of the key components that my secretary, Julie Su, secretary of Labor and Workforce Development Agency, talks about often. And a couple of us always have these conversations around one is getting people with that passion to work in government, one, or, and I brought it up community-based organizations. I think so many times that we didn't work with our CBOs to the level that in government, we should, this administration is very big on working with CBOs and philanthropy groups to make sure that the engagement of those entities are at the highest level. So I would say, students have opportunities to also engage with local CBOs and be that mission, what their values really drives them towards. And that gives them a couple of things to do, right? One is to look at ways that we're helping society in one way or another through those organizations, but it also links them to their own mission and how they can develop those skills around that. But I think the other piece to that is in a lot of these companies that you are working with and that we work with, have their own foundations. So those foundations are amazing. We work with them now, especially in the Newsom administration, more than we ever have. These foundations are really starting to help develop our strategies. My secretary works with a large number of foundations already, and we do as well in terms of strategy, really looking at how do we develop young people's attitudes towards the future, but also skills towards the future? >> Well, you got a pressure cooker of a job. I know how hard it is. I know you're working hard and appreciate what you do. And, and we wish you the best of luck, thank you for sharing this great insight on workforce development. And you guys are working hard. Thank you for what you do. Appreciate it. >> Great. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. >> This is theCUBE coverage and co-production of the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 with Cal Poly. I'm John Furrier with siliconangle.com and theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (calm music)

>>from Santa Clara, California. In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Next panel is the aviatrix certified engineers, also known as Aces. This is the folks that are certified their engineering. They're building these new solutions. Please welcome Toby Foster Informatica Stacy Linear from terror data. And Jennifer read with Victor Davis to the stage. >>So we're gonna show you a jacket. Yeah, I get it. >>I was just gonna I was just gonna really rib you guys. See? Where's your jackets? And Jen's got the jacket on. Okay. >>Good. Love. The aviators. Aces, Pilot gear. They're above the clouds. Storage to new heights. So guys, aviatrix pace is love the name. I think it's great. Certified. This is all about getting things engineered. So that level of certification I want to get into that. But first take us through the day in the life on a SAS. And just to point out, Stacy's a squad leader. So he's He's like Squadron leader, quadrant leader, quadrant leader. So it's got a bunch of pieces underneath him, but share your perspective day in the life. We'll start with you. >>Sure, So I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America, both in the U. S. And in Mexico. And so I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well, so I can become a squad leader myself. But it's important because one of the critical gaps that we found is people having the networking background. Because there you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background. You can program. We've got python, but now working and packets they just don't get. And so just taking them through all of the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical. And, um, because you're going to get an issue where you need to figure out where, exactly is that happening on the network, you know, is by my issue just in a vpc is on the instant side is a security group or is it going on prim? And is this something actually embedded within Amazon itself? I mean, I trouble shot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon, and it was the VW VPN because they were auto scaling on two sides, and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say OK, it's fixed and actually actually help the application teams get to that and get it solved. But I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network The way I see the network, I mean, look, I've been doing this for 25 years, but I got out when I went in the Marine Corps. That's what I did and coming out The network is still the network, but people don't get the same training they get. They got >>just so he just write some software that takes care of itself, but we'll come back to that. I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon, but I think the only thing I have to >>add to that is that it's always the network as long as I've been in. Networking has always been the network's fault. If you're in the I'm even to this day, you know, still, networks fault, and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when It's not your fault. And that means you need to know a little bit about 100 different things. Make that >>And now you got a full stack. Dev Ops, you know, a lot more time. Another 100 times are changing your squadron leader. I get that right. What is? What is the squadron leader first? Could you describe what it is? I think probably just leading off with network components of it. But they from my perspective when you think about what you asked them was it's about no issues and the escalations off my days like that. That's a good outcome. That's a good day. Is a good day's a good day for you. Mention the Amazon. This brings up a good point when you have these new waves come in. You have a lot of new things. New use cases, a lot of the finger point against that guy's problem that girls problems. So what? How do you solve that? And how do you get the young guns up to speed? Is there training is that this with a certification comes in, >>whatever the certification is really going to come in I know when we, uh, we got together at reinvent one of the questions that that we had with with Steven the team was What? What should our certification look like? You know, she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear. But what should that be like? And I think Toby and I was like, No, no, no, no, that's going a little too high. We need to get really low because the better someone can get actually understanding what's actually happening in the network and where to actually troubleshoot the problem, how to step back each of those processes. Because without that, it's just a big black box and they don't know, you know, because everything is abstracted in Amazon and a Net and Azure and Google, it's abstracted in there. These virtual gateways they have VPN is that you just don't have the logs on is you just don't know. And so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are full logs? Well, as long as they turned on the flow logs when I built it, you know, and there's like each one of those little things that well, if they had decided to do that when they built it, it's there. But if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through the teaching them how to read act. Even >>so, we were talking before we came on up on stage about your career. You've been networking all your time, and then, you know, you're no mentoring a lot of younger people. How is that going? Because the people who come in fresh, they don't have all the old war stories they don't talk about, You know, it's never fall. I walk in bare feet in the snow when I was your age, so easy now, right? They say, What's your take on how you train the young piece? >>So I've noticed two things. One is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking. They can tell you what network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that until midway through my career, and they're learning it faster, but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here, you know, everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a submit, and they don't understand why you can break it down. Smaller. What? It's really necessary. So the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in, but they don't understand why. And they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from. And why is it important? And that's old guys. That's where we thrive. >>Jennifer, you mentioned you got in from the Marines helps. But when you got into networking, how what was it like that? And compare it now? Almost like we heard earlier. Static versus Dynamic. Don't be static. And then you just set the network. You got a perimeter? >>Yeah. No, there was no such thing. Yeah, no. So, back in the day, I mean, yeah, I mean, we had banyan vines for email, you know, we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work. Because how many of things were actually sharing it, But then actually, just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over, you know, shelters to plug them in, and Oh, crap. They swung it too hard and shattered. And I got a great polish this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works. I mean, that was the network crypt. Five cat, five cables to run an Ethernet, you know? And then from that to set network switches. Dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then, actually configuring routers and, you know, logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that. And it was funny because I had gone all the way up. It was a software product manager for a while, So I've gone all the way up the stack. And then, ah, two and 1/2 3 years ago, I came across, too, to work with NTT Group that became Victor Davis. But we went to help one of our customers, Avis, and it was like, Okay, so we need to fix the network. Okay, I haven't done this in 20 years, but all right, let's get to it, you know, because it really fundamentally does not change. It's still the network. I mean, I've had people tell me Well, you know, when we go to containers, we will not have to worry about the network. And I'm like, Yeah, you don't I >>dio. And then with this with program ability is really interesting. So I think this brings up the certification. What are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix? A certification? What are some of the highlights? Can you guys share some of the highlights around certifications? >>I think some of the importance is that its it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge. And instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something, we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solve it in a general. That's true in Multi Cloud as well. You can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS and Measure and GC P r. All slightly the same, but slightly different and some things work and some things don't. I think that's probably the number one take. >>I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global outside of the business issues. What does it mean to do? That code is that networking is the configurations that aviatrix what is the state matrix is a certification, but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor? But the >>easy answer is yes, >>yes, it's >>all got to be a general. Let's get your hands and you have to be >>right. And it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification. Um, whether that stops and, um, advanced networking and events, security or whatever it might be. Yeah, they can take the test, but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system in the same thing with any certification. But it's really getting your hands in there. And actually having to troubleshoot the problems, you know, actually work the problem, you know, and calm down. It's going to be OK because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on. It's like, Okay, so everyone calm down. Let's figure out what's happening. It's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again. It's not going to solve that problem, right, But at the same time, remaining calm. But knowing that it really is, I'm getting a packet from here to go over here. It's not working. So what could be the problem, you know, and actually stepping them through those scenarios. But that's like, you only get that by having to do it, you know, and and seeing it and going through it. And >>I have a question. So, you know, I just see it. We started this program maybe six months ago. We're seeing a huge amount of interest. I mean, where oversubscribed on all the training sessions, we've got people flying from around the country, even with Corona virus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were over >>subscribed. Good is that originally they would put their Yeah. Is >>that something that you see in your organizations? Are you recommending that two people do you see? I mean, I'm just I guess I'm surprised. I'm not surprised, but I'm really surprised by the demand, if you would of this multi cloud network certification. Is there really isn't anything like that? Is that something you guys could comment on? That do you see the same things in your organization I see from >>my side Because we operate in a multi cloud environments that really helps. It's beneficial. Yeah, >>I think I would add that, um, networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know. It's not good enough to say. Yeah, I know. I p addresses are I know how the network works and a couple little check marks. Our little letters by your helps give you validity. So even in our team, we can say, Hey, you know, we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary, >>right? So I guess my final question for you guys is why and a certification is relevant. And then second part is share with Livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be aviator certified engineers. Why is it important? So why is it relevant? And why should someone want to be a certified engineer? >>I think my V is a little different. I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get. I mean, they're backwards. So when you've got the training and the understanding in the you use that to prove and you can, like, grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of >>that. So that who is the right person that look at this and saying I'm qualified is a network engineer. Is that a Dev ops person? What your view? Is it a certain >>you know, I think Cloud is really the answer. It's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded. So is the network definition getting eroded? We're getting more and more of some network. Some develop some security lots and lots of security. Because network is so involved in so many of them, that's just the next progression. >>You want to add something there, I would say expand that to more automation engineers because we have those now, so I'm probably extended >>Well, I think the training classes themselves are helpful, especially the entry level ones for people who maybe quote unquote cloud architects. But I've never done anything in networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work, Whether or not they go through it. Eventually get a certification is something different. But I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work. It makes them a better architect. Make some better application developer, but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud. Really getting an understanding even from our people have tradition down on Prem networking. They can understand how that's gonna work in the cloud. >>I know we've got just under 30 seconds left. I want to get one more question than just one more for the folks watching that are maybe younger than I don't have. The networking training from your experience is, each of you can answer. Why should they know about networking? What's the benefit? What's in it for them? Motivate them, share some insights and why they should go with the deeper and networking space we'll start with. You know, I would say it's probably fundamental right after delivery solutions networking. Use the very top. I >>would say. If you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine, how those machines talk together, um, is a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up. >>Well, I think it's a challenge because you've come from top down. Now you're going to start looking from bottom up, and you want those different systems to cross, communicate and say you built something and your overlapping eyepiece space. Not that that doesn't happen. But how can I actually make that still operate without having to re? I re platform? It's like those challenges, like those younger developers or Cisco engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their careers. >>And, you know, the pipes are working plumbing. >>That's right. >>And they know how it works. How to code it. >>That's right. >>Awesome. Thank you, guys for great insights. Ace certified engineers, also known as aces, give a round of applause. >>Yeah, Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Okay, alright, that >>concludes my portion. Thank you, Steve. Thanks for having >>on. Thank you very much. That was fantastic. Everybody >>running with John Furrier. Yeah. So Great event. Great event. I'm >>not gonna take along with that. We got lunch outside for the people here. Just a couple of things. I just called action, right? So we saw the aces. You know, for those of you out of the stream here, become a certified. It's great for your career. Is great for not knowledge is is fantastic. It's not just an aviatrix thing. It's going to teach you about cloud networking, multi cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix, exactly what the Cisco CC IE program was for I p Network. That type of the thing that's number one second thing is, is is learn, right? So there's a There's a link up there for the for to join the community, get like I started this. This is a community. This is the kickoff to this community, and it's a movement. So go to what may be community dot IBM dot com. Starting a community of multi cloud. So you get trained learn. I'd say the next thing is we're doing over 100 seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe. Soon we will come out and we'll actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things. For those of you on the you know, on the live stream in here as well. You know, we're coming to a city near you. Go to one of those events. It's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well is to start to learn and get on that multi cloud journey. And then I'd say the last thing is, you know, we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here, and that's intentional. We want you, you know, leaving with wanting to gnome or and schedule get with us and schedule a multi our architecture workshop sessions. So we we sit down with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and, more importantly, where they're going and define that end state architecture from networking, compute storage, everything and everything you've heard. Today. Every panel kept talking about architecture, talking about operations. Those are the types of things that we saw. We help. You could define that canonical architecture that system architecture, that's yours. So for so many of our customers, they have three by five plotted lucid charts, architecture, drawings, and it's the customer name slash aviatrix our network architecture, and they put it on the whiteboard that's what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us. So this becomes there 20 year network architecture, drawing that. They don't do anything without talking us. And look at that architecture. That's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers. And that's super super powerful. So if you're interested, definitely call us. And let's schedule that with our team. So anyway, I just want to thank everybody on the livestream. Thank everybody here. Hopefully it was It was very useful. I think it waas and join the movement. And for those of you here, join us for lunch and thank you very much. >>Yeah, >>yeah, yeah.

ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 all right so we've got a fantastic event today really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event it's not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a take-off of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any powerpoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got Simone Rashard Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the u.s. it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Frank kibrit you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission critical they care about visibility they care about control they care about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers do they see the same thing we're gonna validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is is architecture again with the IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're gonna talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day 2 operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life that's who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do I operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix as leaders knew we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CC IES where Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of Tube John Fourier okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix where we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel two customer panels before that Gartner is going to come on talk about the industry we have a global system integrators we talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask someone rashard to come on stage from Gartner we'll check it all up [Applause] [Music] okay so kicking things off certain started gartner the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer in the 90 to a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering at the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really I was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow whitey or application people or some kind of DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right with a different account and they create mesh to manage them and their direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like Enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides the data that are sent removing that to that cloud and I ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the adduct way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the two they don't think about operations they have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift wake they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these ways are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct then that's I would I call the up optimal phase but even that they they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS has accounts there's subscription and in adarand GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate used the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that I still wanna manage the cloud from an API to interview I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they really building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway I'm just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi cloud a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in deserve one app in individuals one get happened Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never going to happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the workload in the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking team be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while I run Network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple I agree IPSec VP and I reckon Express that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which we cloud provider right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean this is the day-to-day operations after it you know the natural let's add an app let's add a server let's troubleshoot a problem so what so your life something changes how would he do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's been a hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi-cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official garner definition but I can create one on another spot it's do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't even understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose api's where is that optimization where's the focus well I take what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of the cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of you right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plane out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that plane out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and ship or they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco monks bring you star in the cloud recall that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and contrail is in the cloud so they just want to bring the management plain in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not truly cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive clown that close one letter yeah so that was a big con surgeon i reinvent take the tea out of cloud native its cloud naive i went super viral you guys got t-shirts now i know you love it but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of a double-edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling out but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really ACI in the cloud you call you you really like configure api so the cloud and nsx is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools it's difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know and network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like Al Kyra for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they want to create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week oh the only b2 networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like AV X and others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in AWS you can user it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck Nets a cops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you see this program their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get it via line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this VP see but this VP see automatically being your associate to your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VP C so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI mace which for us old folks know that means but you guys know this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objectives oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well I as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to that cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's where the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead the 20% extra functionality that of course every enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that can be an explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always gonna be that extra functionality the in in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visibility and control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggards who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some the signals that are going on in their environment what are some of the threshold or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well well once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robber will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's okay it's 80s it's easy user transit gateway put a few V pcs and you're done and use create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple is the operations that's when they'll realize okay now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not button tell me that I need to understand the basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi cloud because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi-vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client-server and internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this market because honestly public check hybrid cloud they're working on that that gets on-premise is done now multi-class right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what their cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start to it especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say on and I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against f5 I'm going to bring my five in the cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand ease ease and auto-scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that net I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start thinking okay what about visibility control about the tree cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming someone in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing thank you appreciate it [Applause] informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in a business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of them data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement with aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew it GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake assure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected two advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at three o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build are done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me consistency aviatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments and David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer panelist is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop we got the gardener giving us the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with the live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and it's soon gonna be a lot more coming so I want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is a is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets in different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting what's what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation 'el opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on pram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep yeah we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources to measure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google at Google Analytics our journey has evolved into mortal multi-cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi-cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you you know had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise that I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a particular perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect and we'll call it networking security net sec yep adverse adjusters network and that fourth generation or architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix a matrix doing the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity okay I need for multi-cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we're now having issues with having to to automate that component and making it consistent with our on-premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD when brought to the to the wine side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was some of the there was a path that's probably the biggest list and there is when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's a I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those there we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gate without a transit Gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and in evolve later and maybe optimize or change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model so that's the David yeah talking as earlier about day two operations so how do I design how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending eighty percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity of operations is key alright so the holistic view of day to operation you mentioned let's can jump in day one is your your your getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kinda what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stair out post multi-cloud world what are some of the things that you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router CLI and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards the DevOps model is anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of day 2 operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day 2 operations for a little while where you get well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to realize it's it's such a such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven or operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something there's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detect is important yeah I think garden was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's gonna be a serious thing I want to get you guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies how the networks laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have an intern crypt and they they ever get the question should I encryption and I'll encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely experiencing some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leaving the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you've got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for yours environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance of things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's ok we want to hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like and things like so yeah encrypting tunnels and encrypting the paths and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those backends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like aviatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I see AV traces here they're they're a supplier to the sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff people are not gonna buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's the what's it like where API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like um it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at that the API structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first in mind and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking become more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what it what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're gonna sit with you for your day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important Bobby how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore what's the Volvic bake-off last year first you win so but that's different now because now when you you get the product you can install the product in AWS energy or have it up and running a matter of minutes and so the key is is they can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks but but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you won't be put into a box with the other customers we have needs that surpass their cut their needs yeah I almost see the challenge that you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value to make an roll-up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's a there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this I like like Simone said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so you've got a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly IDEs area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms up organization think pause you're kind of like off a little bit it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know and as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers one of the blockers what are the enabler I think the reality is is that you may not think you're multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements in a secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to allow these clouds and used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the moment from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business team and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or sure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know makes you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will it make sense tgw is a game-changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool give you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw with a gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go Mull one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint do you agree with that premise and then wit is multi clouds did you mall together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that add value but the the network problem is still the same doesn't go away yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the network infrastructure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end of the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now how cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John fritz T Blaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Cooper welcome to stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you oK you've got all the cliff notes from the last session welcome rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move a pack from A to B and you get workloads exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds I mean that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your take yeah I mean it's it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to ET rate and make improvements over the time we got to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question adjusting they both have to answer okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gardner people come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from Mars like - we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing errands we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tour and the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are of and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really that's the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with Amit what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it's matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are going to run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it's the big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make them a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple it's latency and bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea now our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think you guys think infrastructure as code which I love that I think it's that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I just start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network as code because storage and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes on ServiceMaster and network is code reality is it there is it still got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same way we get to do it yeah and even security groups and then on top and aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah about this everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us it was similar on premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made because it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now i want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here i'm now pushing what i do in the cloud back into on Prem and wait and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from zero to a hundred of actually in the journey to cloud do you 50% there are you 10% yes I mean are you evacuating data centers next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together right in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extend out to the app tier that's going to be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of you know lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay go by it's a very different story it started from a garage and one hundred percent on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software-as-a-service one hundred percent on the cloud it was like ten years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask you Sora you guys mentioned DevOps I mean obviously we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this is about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this layer this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interestingly we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we owned that would be data center connectivity we now I work for soar as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times are between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workloads I mean s LA's will be all over the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and whatever ability is our is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's so you use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old days strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your days you have to figure out just what she reinsert that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency in our applications that start thinking start tracking in your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment was it was it from day one no there were two reasons one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot Network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that reference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting is how do I solve or guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just in your thoughts on anything any common uh so actually a multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as our acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are how could people using them but Google's got a great network Google's networks pretty damn good and then you got a sure what's the difference between the clouds who with they've evolved something whether they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes as you're better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is approaches different in many places Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workload like the your network and spend regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember 10 years back Amazon's Network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 so the VP sees concept came out multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the yeah I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architectural solution for example amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has advantages its third to market and so has seen what Asia did wrong it seemed with AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer 2 broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional Network facilities to us just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive questions so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like Wayne is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a datacenter when is the new link you could talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st way is kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high-speed but now when you take the win and make it essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah I think it's a it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you are a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the latencies and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there Lanois same concept is that BS I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native and we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way and than it was in a land that's where is what you're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yes so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that bet define those two land versus win but the other thing that's comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver vr af-s or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning this architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have apt to have security built in have TLS have encryption on the data I transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principles day Security's day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design build into our architecture into our applications it's encrypt everything it's TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff is interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us it's main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive and think that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we had we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's are you being closed-minded native being open minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total BS but what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's getting a bang and then and then Martin Mull and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speech would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and any time I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need to benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you and not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's good all right guys thanks for the great insight great time how about a round of applause DX easy solutions integrating company than we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba corkle will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs critical when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products have incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the Lyons cloud connectivity is a new line of networking services so we're getting into as our clients moving the hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services and aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a VA Church were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed to work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole and their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basically providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT maybe Atrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John Ford with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native network and we just heard from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come in to the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk Jerry to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are exactly you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we're having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the and then we evolved into the next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statement customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of Julie all that stuff but what specifically they digging into yeah so complexity I think when you look at a multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we tis anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard part's now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Terrance's the easy parts done now so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the - so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it not okay in our internal environment as you know we're a huge company or as customers so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I have another question oh but I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway DX c + w WT massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that world by technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking let's simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I would I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works is Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better right visibility's a huge thing jump in security alone network everything's around visibility what automation do you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's a low-hanging fruit what are people working on now what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud and automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were gonna integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of a VHS let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference textures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi-cloud in terms of you know customers want choice they didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and be risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud application as a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an interoperability approach is how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture it says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it in visibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lacking across the industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic okay in terms of aviatrix as you guys see them coming in they're one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging but multi-cloud you still got the old guard incumbents with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component and dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question while we were defining day two operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does day to Operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know day to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve the the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how the fast is expanding the number of features is astonish trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is that what's what happens do they call you up and say hey I need some multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's looks like typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we've got a factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what is VP she's sharing you know what is a private Lincoln or how does that impact your business we have customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts Georgia yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah and when I then is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to beep their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar right final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know the name customers didn't forget in reveal kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in that as you build that network foundation that architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off from and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed how do you success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen what what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good point guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators Hey [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm chef for with the cube Steve Eleni CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineers also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foster min from Attica Stacy linear from Teradata and Jennifer Reid with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys see where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear they're above the clouds towards a new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like a Squadron Leader Roger and leader yeah Squadron Leader so he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jennifer will start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but now working in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hmm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the VP C's and on the instance side is a security group or is it going on print and this is something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and I actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software they work takes care of itself yes he'll be we'll come back to that I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in network have always been the network's fault sure and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you've got a full stack DevOps you got to know a lot more times another hundred and these times are changing they see your squadron leader I get that right what is what is a squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think it probably just leading all the network components of it but are they from my perspective when to think about what you asked them was it's about no issues and no escalation soft my day is like that's a good outcome that's a good day it's a good day Jennifer you mentioned the Amazon thing this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things newly use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guys problem that girls problem so what is how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in those where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Stephen the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear but what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are full logs well as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they'd had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before he came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now mentoring a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about you know that's dimmer fault I walk in Mayr feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young P so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way or you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and that's old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compare it now most like we've heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static cuz back then you just said the network you got a perimeter yeah no there was no such thing ya know so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it now I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network current five cat 5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Avis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this within the program abilities it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS integer and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global si you help the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is it configuration is that aviatrix what is the amine oxy aviatrix is a certification but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor and easy answer is yes so you got to be a general let's go to your hands and all you have to be it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that's hops and [Music] advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not going to solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe six months ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed a good is that watching leader would put there yeah something that you see in your organizations are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I would guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi-cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I say from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps an official for us I think I would add that networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters buying helps give you validity so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so okay I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share what the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why shouldn't someone want to be an ace-certified I'm used to right engineer I think my views a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get no I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training and the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding it okay so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network definition getting eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that's just the next progression I don't say I expend that to more automation engineers because we have those nails probably well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but I've never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes some better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who've tradition down on prime networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud too well I know we got just under 30 seconds left but I want to get one more question than just one more for the folks watching that are you may be younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacey we'll start with you we'll go down let's say it's probably fundamental right if you want to deliver solutions no we're going use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you've come from top-down now you're gonna start looking from bottom up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you've built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the how the pipes are working you guys know what's going some plumbing that's right and they gotta know how it works I had a code it it's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certain ABS your certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John for you yeah so great event great event I'm not gonna take long we got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for not knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the Cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community aviatrix comm starting a community a multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as to start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more importantly where they're going and define that end state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we solve we help you define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their twenty-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music] you

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you you you you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] ladies and gentlemen please take your seats good morning ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 alright so we've got a fantastic event today I'm really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event it's not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a takeoff of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any PowerPoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got some owners chart of Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the US it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every Enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Franco Bree you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission-critical they care about visibility they care about control that about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers did they see the same thing we're going to validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is is architecture again with the IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're going to talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day two operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do i operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix we as leaders ooh we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CCI es what Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when to try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of joob John Ferrier [Applause] okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix where we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel to customer panels before that Gartner is going to come out and talk about the industry we have a global system integrators they talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask some own rashard to come on stage from Gartner we'll kick it all up [Applause] [Music] okay so kicking things off certain started gardener the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer the ninety-two a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering in the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow IT or application people are sometime a DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right as with different account and they create mesh to manage them and they have direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like Enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides that the atoms that are sent removing that to that cloud they ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the ad hoc way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the - they don't think about operations we have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift week they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these words are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct and that's what I call the optimal phase but even that they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS as accounts there's subscription and in as ER and GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate used the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that still wanna manage the cloud from an epi xx view I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they read they building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third-party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway up just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi cloud like a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in Azure one app in individuals one get app in Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never gonna happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the work load and the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking King be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while I run network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple you know I agree IPSec VPN and I reckon Express route that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which we cloud providers right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean it's just the day-to-day operations after you know the natural let's add an app that's not a server let's troubleshoot a problem so what ending so your life if something changes now what do you do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's the hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official gardener definition but I can create one on another spot is do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose API guys where is that optimization where's the focus well I think what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of that cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of view right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plan out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that playing out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and chip are they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco wants bring you star in the cloud they call that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and Khan trailers in a cloud so they just want to bring the management plain in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not really cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive well not so close one letter yeah so that was a big culture to reinvent take the tea out of cloud native it's cloud naive that went super viral you guys got t-shirts now I know you love yeah but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of a double-edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling up but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in Cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really scr in the cloud you can't you you really like configure API so the cloud and NSX is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools is difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know a network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like Al Kyra for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they want to create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week I was only be two networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like aviation others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in a table us you can use it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck net sec Ops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you see this ability their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get it V line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this V PC but this V PC automatically being your associate your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VPC so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI days which for us old folks know what that means but you guys know this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objections oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to the cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's what the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead to 20% extra functionality that of course every Enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that can be an explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always going to be that extra functionality that in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visible in control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggers who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some of the signals that are going on their environment what are some of the thresholds or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well one once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robbery will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's okay it's a TBS it's easy use a transit gateway put a few V PCs and you're done and you create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple as the operations that's when they'll realize okay now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not but I'm telling you that I need to understand a basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi cloud because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client-server an internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know you not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this because honestly public cloud check hybrid cloud they're working on that that kids on premise is done now multi class right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what there's cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start with especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against f5 I'm going to bring my five in a cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand is ease and auto scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that met I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start taking okay what about visibility control about the three cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming summit in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing thank you appreciate it thanks [Applause] informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in a business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of that data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement myth aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for her aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew what GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake measure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected two advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at three o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build or done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me consistency aviatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Applause] [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer pal this is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop against a gardener given this the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with a live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and the soon gonna be a lot more coming so I want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting what's what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation --all opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on bram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we're we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep yeah we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources to measure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google at Google Analytics our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a particular perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect and we'll call it networking security net sec yep versus Justice Network and that fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix I have a trick to in the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity ok the need for a multi cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we're now having issues with having the to automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that sty and brought to the do the web side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was the middle it was a path that's probably the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective we like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's a I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those now we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway about a trans a gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and it evolved later and maybe optimized for change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can't I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model so that's David yeah talking as we prepare about a day to operations so how do I design how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending eighty percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice to the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity of operations is key right all right so the holistic view of j2 operation you mentioned let's could jump in day one is you're you're you're getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kind of what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 miles their outpost multi-cloud world what are some of the things then you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router seoi and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards a DevOps model there's anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of date to operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day - operations for a little while where you get well well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to to realize it's it's such as such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something that it's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detection is important yeah I think Gardner was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's gonna be a serious thing I want to get you guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies how the network's laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have an equipment to encrypt and they they never get the question should i encryption and I'll encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely experiencing some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leaving the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for your environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance or things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting you got a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's ok wanna hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like encryption and things like so yeah encrypting tunnels and encrypting the paths and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those backends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like aviatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I'll see aviatrix is here they're their supplier to the sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff these people are not gonna here to buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's the what's it like we're API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at the PAP i structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first of mine and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking and more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what do what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on-site and they're gonna sit with you for a day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important probably how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore what's involving take off last year first you win so but that's different now because now you and you when you get the product you can install the product in AWS energy or have it up and running a matter of minutes and so key is is that it can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks right but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you want to be put into a box with the other customers we have needs that surpassed or cut their needs yeah I almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value depending on roll-up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's it there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this I like like Seamon said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so you've spent a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly IDEs area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah you know part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms up organization take pause you're kind of like off it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know in as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers what are the blockers what are the enablers I think the reality is is that you may not think your multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements Inc and then secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to lot of these clouds and they used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the problem from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business need and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that then your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or Azure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or are they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more than cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will they make sense tgw is a game changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool gives you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw or the Gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go mole to one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint you agree with that premise and then witness multi-cloud stitch them all together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction to add value but the the network problem is still the same go away yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round Hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the then they're working for structure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate Thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John for its Dee Mulaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Koopa Pokemon stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you oK you've got all the cliff notes from the last session welcome rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move attack from A to B and you get work gloves exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds I mean that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your taking yeah I mean it it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to iterate and make improvements over the time we got to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question adjusting they both have to answer but okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gardner people come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from Mars like to we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing Atkins we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tour and the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are available and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really got the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with a mint what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it's matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are going to run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it means the big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple it's a latency and bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think I do you guys think infrastructure has code which I love that I think that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I just start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network is code because stores and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes and service master and network is code reality is that there is got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same way three guys do it yeah and even security groups and then on top an aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah think about this everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us was similar on premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made cuz it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now i want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here i'm now pushing what i do in the cloud back into on-prem and what and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from 0 to 100 of actually in the journey to cloud do you 50% there are you 10% are you vacuum datacenters next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extend out to the app tier that's gonna be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay cool bye it's a very different story it started from a garage and 100% on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software as a service 100% on the cloud it was like 10 years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask you is or you guys mentioned DevOps I mean honestly we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this is about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interesting we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we owned that would be data center connectivity we now I work for as or as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth I think availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workloads SLA is will be all of the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and what our ability is hour is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's solely use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old day is strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your day is you have to figure out just what's your answer to that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency in our applications that's starting start tracking your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment over that was it from day one now there are two divisions one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that reference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting how do I solve our guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public Internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just on your thoughts on that I think any comment on that so actually multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as our acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are hiking people using them but Google's got a great network he googles networks pretty damn good and then you got Asher what's the difference between the clouds who where they evolve something where they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes as you're better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is the approach is different in many places Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workload like the your network can span regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember 10 years back Amazon's Network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 so so the VP sees concept came out multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the I mean I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architect your own solution for example Amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has a banjo it's third to market and so it has seen what a sure did wrong it's seen what AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer two broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional network facilities to us just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive questions so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like Wayne is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a datacenter when is the new link you get talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st winds kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high speed but now when you take a win and make the essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah i think it's a it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you're a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the latencies and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there land when same concept as that BS I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native and we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way and than it was in a land that's what you're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yeah so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that that define those two land versus when but the other thing that comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver VRS or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning that's architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have app to app security built-in have TLS have encryption on the data a transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principals day security is day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design we want our architecture into our applications its encrypt everything its TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff was interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us it's main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive insane that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we had we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's not me being closed-minded native being open minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total B yes but what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's giving you all these and then and then Martin Mull and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speech would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and any time I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need a benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you and not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's good all right guys thanks for the great insight great pen how about a round of applause DX easy solutions integrating company that we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba porco will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs its critical when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products that incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the lance cloud connectivity there's a new line of networking services that we're getting into as our clients moving the hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services an aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a v8 church we were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed for work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole in their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basically providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT infrastructure baby Atrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John fray with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native network and we start from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come into the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk Jerry to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yep yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we were having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying we're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the apps and then we evolved into that next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statements customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of Julie all that stuff but what specifically they did digging into yeah some complexity I think when you look at a multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard parts now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Tara says the easy parts done that so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises that are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the >> so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean - does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it okay in our internal environment as you know we're a huge company or as customers are in 30 so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I I have another question oh but I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway DX c @ w WT massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that world by technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking but simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the at the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I what I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works is Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better Bank visibily is a huge thing jump in security alone network everything's around visibility what automation you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's the low-hanging fruit what are people working on now and what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud an automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were going to integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of athe let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference architectures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi cloud in terms of you know customers want choice didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and D risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud application as a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an Billee approach is how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it invisibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lack in cross industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic okay in terms of aviatrix as you guys see them coming in there one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multi cloud you still got the old guard incumbent with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component and dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question what we were defining day to operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does day to Operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know day to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve that the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how the fast is expanding the number of features is astonishing trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is the what's what happens there they call you up and say hey I need multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we've got to factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what does VPC sharing you know what is a private link and asher how does that impact your business you know customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts Georgia yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah and when I've been is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar right final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know the name customers didn't again reveal kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in is you build that network foundation at architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi-cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off Prem and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed how do you success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen with what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm chef for with the q Steve Valenti CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineer is also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foss from informatica Stacy linear from Teradata and Jennifer Reed with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys see where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear they're above the clouds story to new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like it Squadron Leader Roger and leader yeah Squadron Leader he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jennifer we'll start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm really working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but networking in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the V PC is and on the instant side is a security group or is it going on print and is this something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software they work takes care of itself yes he'll be will good I'll come back to that I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in never I've always been the network's fault and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you've got a full stack DevOps you got to know a lot more times another 100 and these times are changing yeah they say you're Squadron Leader I get that right what is what is the squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think probably just leading all the network components of it but not they from my perspective when to think about what you ask them was it's about no issues and the escalation soft my day is a good outcome that's a good day it's a good day again every mission the Amazon this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things new we use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guys problem that girls problem so what how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in was where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Steve and the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear like what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are four logs well as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they'd had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before he came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now mentoring a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about yeah that's never fault I walk in Mayr feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young piece so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compare it now most like we've heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static because back then you just said the network you got a perimeter yeah I know there was no such thing yeah no so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it and how I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network current five cat 5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Avis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this with and programmability is it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS integer and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global s eyes cover the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is the configuration is that aviatrix what is the I mean obviate races the ACE certifications but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor easy answer is yes so you got to be a general let's go to your hands and all you have to be it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that is ops and [Music] advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not gonna solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe six ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed good is that watching leader would put there yeah is that something that you see in your organization's are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi-cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I see from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps and it's beneficial for us yeah I think I would add that uh networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know right it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters by your name helps give you validity um so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share with the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why should someone want to be an ace-certified I'm used to write engineer I think my view is a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get know I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training in the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of ok so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network initially eating eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that it's just the next progression I would say I expand that to more automation engineers because we have those nails probably extended as well well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but have never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes some better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who have tradition down on Prem networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud - well I know we've got just under 30 seconds left but I want to get one more question and just one more for the folks watching that are you maybe younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacy we'll start with you we'll go down let's say it's probably fundamental right if you want to deliver solutions networking use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you you've come from top-down now you're gonna start looking from bottom-up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the pilot pipes are working and some plumbing that's right works at how to code it that's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certain babies you're certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John for you yeah so great event great event I'm not going to take long we've got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the Aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for not knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community a bh6 comm was starting a community at multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more important where they're going and to find that end state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we saw we help you cook define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their 20-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] you