(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's Coverage of Data Citizens 2022 Collibra's Customer event. My name is Dave Vellante. With us is Kirk Hasselbeck, who's the Vice President of Data Quality of Collibra. Kirk, good to see you. Welcome. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. Excited to be here. >> You bet. Okay, we're going to discuss data quality, observability. It's a hot trend right now. You founded a data quality company, OwlDQ and it was acquired by Collibra last year. Congratulations! And now you lead data quality at Collibra. So we're hearing a lot about data quality right now. Why is it such a priority? Take us through your thoughts on that. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely exciting times for data quality which you're right, has been around for a long time. So why now, and why is it so much more exciting than it used to be? I think it's a bit stale, but we all know that companies use more data than ever before and the variety has changed and the volume has grown. And while I think that remains true, there are a couple other hidden factors at play that everyone's so interested in as to why this is becoming so important now. And I guess you could kind of break this down simply and think about if Dave, you and I were going to build, you know a new healthcare application and monitor the heartbeat of individuals, imagine if we get that wrong, what the ramifications could be? What those incidents would look like? Or maybe better yet, we try to build a new trading algorithm with a crossover strategy where the 50 day crosses the 10 day average. And imagine if the data underlying the inputs to that is incorrect. We'll probably have major financial ramifications in that sense. So, it kind of starts there where everybody's realizing that we're all data companies and if we are using bad data, we're likely making incorrect business decisions. But I think there's kind of two other things at play. I bought a car not too long ago and my dad called and said, "How many cylinders does it have?" And I realized in that moment, I might have failed him because 'cause I didn't know. And I used to ask those types of questions about any lock brakes and cylinders and if it's manual or automatic and I realized I now just buy a car that I hope works. And it's so complicated with all the computer chips. I really don't know that much about it. And that's what's happening with data. We're just loading so much of it. And it's so complex that the way companies consume them in the IT function is that they bring in a lot of data and then they syndicate it out to the business. And it turns out that the individuals loading and consuming all of this data for the company actually may not know that much about the data itself and that's not even their job anymore. So, we'll talk more about that in a minute but that's really what's setting the foreground for this observability play and why everybody's so interested, it's because we're becoming less close to the intricacies of the data and we just expect it to always be there and be correct. >> You know, the other thing too about data quality and for years we did the MIT CDOIQ event we didn't do it last year at COVID, messed everything up. But the observation I would make there love thoughts is it data quality used to be information quality used to be this back office function, and then it became sort of front office with financial services and government and healthcare, these highly regulated industries. And then the whole chief data officer thing happened and people were realizing, well, they sort of flipped the bit from sort of a data as a a risk to data as an asset. And now, as we say, we're going to talk about observability. And so it's really become front and center, just the whole quality issue because data's fundamental, hasn't it? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let's imagine we pull up our phones right now and I go to my favorite stock ticker app and I check out the NASDAQ market cap. I really have no idea if that's the correct number. I know it's a number, it looks large, it's in a numeric field. And that's kind of what's going on. There's so many numbers and they're coming from all of these different sources and data providers and they're getting consumed and passed along. But there isn't really a way to tactically put controls on every number and metric across every field we plan to monitor. But with the scale that we've achieved in early days, even before Collibra. And what's been so exciting is we have these types of observation techniques, these data monitors that can actually track past performance of every field at scale. And why that's so interesting and why I think the CDO is listening right intently nowadays to this topic is so maybe we could surface all of these problems with the right solution of data observability and with the right scale and then just be alerted on breaking trends. So we're sort of shifting away from this world of must write a condition and then when that condition breaks, that was always known as a break record. But what about breaking trends and root cause analysis? And is it possible to do that, with less human intervention? And so I think most people are seeing now that it's going to have to be a software tool and a computer system. It's not ever going to be based on one or two domain experts anymore. >> So, how does data observability relate to data quality? Are they sort of two sides of the same coin? Are they cousins? What's your perspective on that? >> Yeah, it's super interesting. It's an emerging market. So the language is changing a lot of the topic and areas changing the way that I like to say it or break it down because the lingo is constantly moving as a target on this space is really breaking records versus breaking trends. And I could write a condition when this thing happens it's wrong and when it doesn't, it's correct. Or I could look for a trend and I'll give you a good example. Everybody's talking about fresh data and stale data and why would that matter? Well, if your data never arrived or only part of it arrived or didn't arrive on time, it's likely stale and there will not be a condition that you could write that would show you all the good and the bads. That was kind of your traditional approach of data quality break records. But your modern day approach is you lost a significant portion of your data, or it did not arrive on time to make that decision accurately on time. And that's a hidden concern. Some people call this freshness, we call it stale data but it all points to the same idea of the thing that you're observing may not be a data quality condition anymore. It may be a breakdown in the data pipeline. And with thousands of data pipelines in play for every company out there there, there's more than a couple of these happening every day. >> So what's the Collibra angle on all this stuff made the acquisition you got data quality observability coming together, you guys have a lot of expertise in this area but you hear providence of data you just talked about stale data, the whole trend toward real time. How is Collibra approaching the problem and what's unique about your approach? >> Well, I think where we're fortunate is with our background, myself and team we sort of lived this problem for a long time in the Wall Street days about a decade ago. And we saw it from many different angles. And what we came up with before it was called data observability or reliability was basically the underpinnings of that. So we're a little bit ahead of the curve there when most people evaluate our solution. It's more advanced than some of the observation techniques that currently exist. But we've also always covered data quality and we believe that people want to know more, they need more insights and they want to see break records and breaking trends together so they can correlate the root cause. And we hear that all the time. I have so many things going wrong just show me the big picture. Help me find the thing that if I were to fix it today would make the most impact. So we're really focused on root cause analysis, business impact connecting it with lineage and catalog, metadata. And as that grows, you can actually achieve total data governance. At this point, with the acquisition of what was a lineage company years ago and then my company OwlDQ, now Collibra Data Quality, Collibra may be the best positioned for total data governance and intelligence in the space. >> Well, you mentioned financial services a couple of times and some examples, remember the flash crash in 2010. Nobody had any idea what that was, they just said, "Oh, it's a glitch." So they didn't understand the root cause of it. So this is a really interesting topic to me. So we know at Data Citizens '22 that you're announcing you got to announce new products, right? Your yearly event, what's new? Give us a sense as to what products are coming out but specifically around data quality and observability. >> Absolutely. There's always a next thing on the forefront. And the one right now is these hyperscalers in the cloud. So you have databases like Snowflake and Big Query and Data Bricks, Delta Lake and SQL Pushdown. And ultimately what that means is a lot of people are storing in loading data even faster in a salike model. And we've started to hook in to these databases. And while we've always worked with the same databases in the past they're supported today we're doing something called Native Database pushdown, where the entire compute and data activity happens in the database. And why that is so interesting and powerful now is everyone's concerned with something called Egress. Did my data that I've spent all this time and money with my security team securing ever leave my hands? Did it ever leave my secure VPC as they call it? And with these native integrations that we're building and about to unveil here as kind of a sneak peek for next week at Data Citizens, we're now doing all compute and data operations in databases like Snowflake. And what that means is with no install and no configuration you could log into the Collibra Data Quality app and have all of your data quality running inside the database that you've probably already picked as your your go forward team selection secured database of choice. So we're really excited about that. And I think if you look at the whole landscape of network cost, egress cost, data storage and compute, what people are realizing is it's extremely efficient to do it in the way that we're about to release here next week. >> So this is interesting because what you just described you mentioned Snowflake, you mentioned Google, oh actually you mentioned yeah, the Data Bricks. Snowflake has the data cloud. If you put everything in the data cloud, okay, you're cool but then Google's got the open data cloud. If you heard Google Nest and now Data Bricks doesn't call it the data cloud but they have like the open source data cloud. So you have all these different approaches and there's really no way up until now I'm hearing to really understand the relationships between all those and have confidence across, it's like (indistinct) you should just be a note on the mesh. And I don't care if it's a data warehouse or a data lake or where it comes from, but it's a point on that mesh and I need tooling to be able to have confidence that my data is governed and has the proper lineage, providence. And that's what you're bringing to the table. Is that right? Did I get that right? >> Yeah, that's right. And for us, it's not that we haven't been working with those great cloud databases, but it's the fact that we can send them the instructions now we can send them the operating ability to crunch all of the calculations, the governance, the quality and get the answers. And what that's doing, it's basically zero network cost, zero egress cost, zero latency of time. And so when you were to log into Big BigQuery tomorrow using our tool or let or say Snowflake, for example, you have instant data quality metrics, instant profiling, instant lineage and access privacy controls things of that nature that just become less onerous. What we're seeing is there's so much technology out there just like all of the major brands that you mentioned but how do we make it easier? The future is about less clicks, faster time to value faster scale, and eventually lower cost. And we think that this positions us to be the leader there. >> I love this example because every talks about wow the cloud guys are going to own the world and of course now we're seeing that the ecosystem is finding so much white space to add value, connect across cloud. Sometimes we call it super cloud and so, or inter clouding. Alright, Kirk, give us your final thoughts and on the trends that we've talked about and Data Citizens '22. >> Absolutely. Well I think, one big trend is discovery and classification. Seeing that across the board people used to know it was a zip code and nowadays with the amount of data that's out there, they want to know where everything is where their sensitive data is. If it's redundant, tell me everything inside of three to five seconds. And with that comes, they want to know in all of these hyperscale databases, how fast they can get controls and insights out of their tools. So I think we're going to see more one click solutions, more SAS-based solutions and solutions that hopefully prove faster time to value on all of these modern cloud platforms. >> Excellent, all right. Kurt Hasselbeck, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and previewing Data Citizens '22. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. >> You're welcome. All right, and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more coverage from theCUBE.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios today for theCUBE conversation. We're talking about data. We're always talking about data and it's really interesting. You know we like to go out and get you the first person insight from the people that start the companies, run the companies, the practitioners and, and, and get the insight directly from them. We also like to go out and get original research and hear from original research. And this is a great opportunity to hear from both. So we're excited to have, and welcome back into the studio. He's Aaron Kalb. He's the co founder of Alation, many time CUBE alumni. Aaron. Great to see you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to be here. >> Yeah, it's very cool. But today it's a special, a special thing. We've never done this before with you. You guys are releasing a brand new report called, the Alation State of Data Culture Report. So really interesting report. A lot of great information that we're going to dig in here for the next few minutes. But before we do, tell us kind of the history of this report. This is a, the kind of the inaugural release. What was kind of behind it, why did you guys do this? And give us a little background before we get into the details. >> Absolutely. So, yes, that's exactly right. It's debuting today that we plan to kind of update this research quarterly we going to see the trends over time. And this emerged because, you know, I, part of my job, I talk to chief data officers and chief analytics officers across our customer base and prospects. And I keep hearing anecdotally over and over that establishing a data culture, is often the number one priority for these data leaders and for these organizations. And so we wanted to really say, can we quantify that? Can we agree upon a definition of data culture? And can we create sort of a simple yardstick to more objectively measure where organizations are on this sort of data maturity curve to get it into culture. >> Right. I love it. So you created this data, data index right? The data culture index. And, and I think it's important to look at methodology. I think people, a lot of times go right to the results on reports before talking about the methodologies. And let's talk about the methodologies cause we're supposed to be talking about data, right? So you talked to 300, some odd executives, correct. And I think it's really interesting and you broke it down into three kind of buckets of data literacy, if you will. Data search and discovery, number one, data, two kind of literacy in terms of their ability to work with the data. And then the third bucket is really data governance. And then in, in the form ABCD, you gave him a four point score and basically, are they doing it well? Are they doing it in the majority of the time? Are they doing it about half, they got one or they got a zero and you get this four point scale and you end up with a 12 point scale which we're all familiar with from, from school, from an A to an, A minus and B, et cetera. Just dig it a little bit on those three categories and how you chose those. So the first one again is kind of the data search and discovery, you know can they find it and then their competency, if you will and then a governance and compliance. Kind of dig into each of those three buckets a little bit. >> For sure. So, so the, the end goal in data culture, is to have an organization in which data is valued and decisions are made based on data and evidence, right? Versus a culture in which we go with the highest paid person's opinion or what we did last quarter or any of these other ways things get done. And so the idea is to make that possible, as you said you've to be able to find the data when you need it. That's the data search and discovery. You've to be able to interpret that data correctly and draw valid conclusions from it. And that's a data literacy, excuse me. And both of those are contingent upon having data governance in place. So that data is well-defined and has high data quality, as well as other aspects, so that it is possible to find it and understand it properly. >> Right. And what are the things too that I think is really important that we call that, and again, we're going to dive into the details, is your perceived execution versus the reported execution by the people that are actually providing data. And I think you've found and you've highlighted on specific slides that you know, there's not necessarily a match there. And sometimes that you know, what you perceive is happening, isn't necessarily what's happening when you go down and query the people in the field. So really important to come up with a number. And I think a, I think you said this is going to be an ongoing thing over a period of time. So you kind of start to see longitudinal changes in these organizations. >> Absolutely. And we're very excited to see those, those trends over time. But even at the outset is this you know, very striking effect emerges which is, as you said, if we ask one of these you know, 300 data leaders, you know, all around the world actually, you know, if we ask, how is the data culture at your company overall, and this is very broad general top down way and have them graded on the sort of SaaS scale. You know, we get results where there's a large gap between kind of that level of maturity and what emerges in a bottom up methodology excuse me, in which you ask about, you know governance and literacy and, and such kind of by department and in a more bottom up way. And so we do see that that, you know, it can be helpful, even for data people to have a, a more granular metric and framework for quantifying their progress. >> Right? Let's jump into some of the results. It's, it's a fascinating, they're kind of all over the map, but there's some definite trends. One of the trends you talked about is that there's a lot of questions on the quality of the data. But that's a real inhibitor to people. Whether that suspicion is because it's not good data. And I don't know, this question for you, is, is, do they think it's not relevant to the decision that's being made? Is it an incomplete data set or the wrong data set? It seems to be that keeps coming up over and over about, decision-makers not necessarily having confidence in the data. What, can you share a little bit more color around that? >> Yeah, it's quite interesting actually. So what we find is that 90%. So 90 people, 10 executives (indistinct) to question the data sometimes often or always. But the part that's maybe disappointing or concerning is the two thirds of executives are believed to ignore the data and make a decision kind of pushing the data aside which is really quite striking when you think about it, why have all this data, if more often than not you're sort of disregarding it to make your final answer. And so you're absolutely correct when we dug into why, what are the reasons behind pushing it aside. Data quality was number one. And I think it is a question of, Oh, is the data inaccurate? Is it out of date, these sort of concerns sort of we, we hear from customers and prospects. But as we dig in deeper in the survey results, excuse me, we, we see some other reasons behind that. One is a lack of collaboration between the data analytics folks and the business folks. And so there's a question of, I don't know exactly where this data came from or to your point kind of how it was produced. What was the methodology? How was it sourced? And maybe because of that disconnect is a lack of trust. So trust really is the ultimate I think, failure to having data culture really take root. >> Right? And it's trust in this trust, as you said, not only in the data per se, the source of the data, the quality of the data, the relevance of the data but also the people who are providing you with the data. And obviously you get, you get some data sets. Sometimes you didn't get other data sets. So, that's really I'm a little bit disconcerting. The other thing I thought was kind of interesting is, it seems to be consistent that the, the primary reason that people are using big data projects is around operations and operations efficiency, a little bit about compliance, but, you know, it's interesting we had you on at the MIT CDOIQ, Chief Data Information Officer quality symposium, and you talked about the goodness of people moving from kind of a defensive posture to an offensive posture, you know using data in terms of product development and innovation. And, and what comes across in this survey is that's kind of down the list behind you know, kind of operational efficiency. We're seeing a little bit of governance and regulation but the, the quest for data as a tool for innovation, didn't really shine through in this report. >> Well, you know, it's very interesting. It depends whether you look at the aggregate level or you break things down a little bit more. So one thing we did after we got that zero to 12 scale on the data culture index or DCI, is it actually, we were able to break it down into thirds. And among the sort of bottom third, it has the least well-established data culture by this yardstick. We've found that governance and regulatory compliance, was the number one application of data. But among the top third of respondents, we actually found the opposite where things like providing a great customer experience, doing product innovation, those sort of things actually came to the fore and governance fell behind. So I think there is this curve where, It's table stakes to get the sort of defense side of data figured out. And then you can move on to offense in using data to make your organization meet its meet its other goals. >> Right. Right. And then I wanted to get your take on kind of the democratization of data, right? This is a, this is a trend that's been going on, and really, I think you said before you know, your guys' whole mission is to empower curious and rational world to give people the ability to ask the right questions have the right data and get the right answer. So, you know, we've seen democratization in terms of the access to the data, the access to the tools, the ability to do something with the data and the tool, and then the actual authority to execute business decision based on that. The results on that seem a little bit split here because a lot of the problems seem to be focused on leadership, not necessarily taking a data based decision move, but on the good hand a lot of people trying to break down data silos and make data more accessible for a larger group of people. So that more people in the organization are making data based decisions. This seems kind of like this little bit of a bifurcation between the C suite and everybody else trying to get their job done. >> Absolutely. There's always this question of you know, sort of the, that organizational wide initiative and then what's happening on the ground. One thing we saw that was very heartening and aligns with our customers index success, is a real emphasis being placed on having data governance and data context and data literacy factors sort of be embedded at the point of use. To not expecting people, to just like take a course and look things up and kind of end up with their workflow to be able to use data quickly and accurately and, and interpret it in varied ways. So that was really exciting to see as, as, as a initiative. It sort of bridges that gap along with initiatives to have more collaboration and integration between the data people and the business people. because really you know, they exist to serve one another. But in terms of the disconnect between the C suite and other parts of the org, there was a really interesting inverse correlation. Well, or maybe it's not interesting how you look at it, but basically, you know, when we talk to C level executives and ask, you know, does the C suite ignore data? Do they question data et cetera, those numbers came in lower than when we talked to, you know, senior director about the C suite right? It's sort of the farther you get, and there's a difference there, you know, from my perspective, I almost wonder whether that distance is actually is more objective viewpoint. And when you're in that role, it's hard to even see your cognitive biases and your tendency to ignore a data when it doesn't suit you. >> Right. Right. So there's, there's some other interesting things here. So one of them is, you know, kind of predictors, right? One of the whole reasons to do studies and collect data so that we can have some predictive ability. And, and it comes out here that the reporting structure is a strong predictor of a company's data tier structure. So, you know, there's the whole rise of the chief data officers and the chief analytics officer and the chief data and analytics officer and lots of conversations about those roles and what exactly are those roles and who do they report to. Your study finds a pretty compelling leading indicator that if that role is reporting to either the CEO or the executive board, which is often a one in the same person, that that's actually a terrific indicator of success in moving to a more data centric culture. >> That's absolutely correct. So we found that that top third of organizations on the data culture index were much more likely to have a chief data executive, a CDO, CAO or CDAO. In fact, they're more likely to have folks with the analytics in their title because in some organizations, data is thought to mean sort of raw data, infrastructural defense and analytics is sort of where it gets you know, infused into business processes and value. But certainly that top third is much more likely to have the chief data executive reporting into the executive board or CEO when the highest ranking data executive is under the CIO or some other part of the organization, those orgs tend to score a far lower on the DCI. >> Right. Right. So it's interesting, you know you're a really interesting guy even doing this for a while. You were at Siri before you were at Alation. So you have a really good feel for kind of what data can do and can't do and natural human or natural language processing and, and, and human voice interaction with these devices, a really interesting case study, and they can do a really good job within a small defined data set and instruction set, but they don't do necessarily so well once you kind of get outside how, how they're trained. And you've talked a lot about how metaphor shaped the way that we think and I know you and Dave talked about data oil and data lakes I don't want to necessarily go down that whole path but I do think it's important. And what came out of the study and the way people think about data. You know, there's a lot of conversation. How do you value data? Is data, you know it used to just be an expense that we had to buy servers to store the stuff we weren't sure what we ever did with it. So I wonder if there's any, you know, kind of top level metaphors level, kind of a thought or process or framing in the companies that you study that came out. maybe not necessarily in the top line data, but maybe in some of the notes that help define why some people, you know are being successful at making this transition and putting, you know kind of data out front of their decision processing versus data, either behind as a supporting thing or maybe data, I just don't have time with it or I don't trust it, or God knows where you got that, and this is not the data that I wanted. You know, was there any, you know, kind of tangental or anecdotal stuff that came out of this study that's more reflective of, of the softer parts of a data culture versus the harder parts in terms of titles and roles and, and, and job responsibilities. >> Yeah. It's a really interesting place to explore. I do think there's a, I don't want to make this overly simplistic group binary, but at the end of the day you know, like anything else within an organization, you can view data as a liability to say, okay, we have for example, you know, customer's names and phone numbers and passwords, and we just need to prevent an adverse event in which there's a leak or some sort of InfoSec problem that could cause, you know, bad press and fines and other negative consequences. And I think the issue there is if data's a liability, the most you know, the best case is that it's worth zero as opposed to some huge negative on your company's balance sheet. And, and I think, you know, intuitively, if you really want to prevent data misuse and data problems, one fail safe, but I think ultimately in its own way risky way to do that was just not collect any data, right. And not store it. So I think that the transition is to say, look data must be protected and taken care of that's step zero. But you know, it's really just the beginning and data is this asset that can be used to inform the huge company level strategic decisions that are made in annual planning at the board level, down to the millions of little decisions every day in the work of people in customer support and in sales and in product management and in, you know, various roles that just across industries. And I think once you have that, that shift, you know the upside is potentially, you know, unbounded. >> Right. And, and it just changes the way, the way you think. And suddenly instead of saying, Oh, data needs to be kind of hidden away, it's more like, Oh, people need to be trained on data use and empowered with data. And it's all about not if it's used or if it's misused but really how it's used and why it's used, what it's being used for to make a real impact. >> Right. Right. And it's funny when I just remember it being back in business school one of the great things that help teach is to think in terms of data, right. And you always have the infamous center consulting interview question, How many manhole covers are in Manhattan. Right. So, you know, to, to, to start to think about that problem from a data centric, point of view really gives you a leg up and, and even, you know where to start and how to attack those types of problems. And I thought it was interesting you know, talking about challenges for people to have a more data centric, point of view. It's interesting. The reports says, basically everybody said there's all kinds of challenges around data quality and compliance, and they had democratization. But the bottom companies, the bottom companies said that the biggest challenge was lack of buy in from company leadership. So I guess the good news bad news is that there's a real opportunity to make a significant change and get your company from the bottom third to a middle third or a top third, simply by taking a change in attitude about putting data in a much more central role in your decision making process. 'Cause all the other stuff's kind of operational, execution challenges that we all have, not enough people, blah, blah, blah. But in terms of attitude of leadership and prioritization, that's something that's very easy to change if you so choose. And really seems to be the key to unlock this real journey as opposed to the minutiae of a lot of the little details that that are a challenge for everybody. >> Absolutely. In your changing attitudes might be the easiest thing or the hardest thing depending on (indistinct). But I think you're absolutely right. The first step, which, which which could, maybe it should be easy, is admitting that you have a problem or maybe to put it more positively, realizing you have an opportunity. >> I love that. And then just again, looking at the top tier companies, the other thing that I thought was pretty interesting in this study is, I'm looking at it here, is getting champions in each of the operational segments. So rather than, I mean, a chief data officer is important and you know, somebody kind of at the high level to shepherd it in the executive suite, as we just discussed, but within each of the individual tasks and functions and roles, whether that's operations or customer service or product development or operational efficiency, you need some type of champion, some type of person, you know, banging the gavel, collecting the data, smoothing out the complexities, helping people get their thing together. And again, another way to really elevate your position on the score. >> Absolutely. And I think this idea of again, bridging between, you know, if data is centralized you have a chance to try to really get excellent practices within the data org. But even it becomes even more essential to have those ambassadors, people who are in the business and understand all the business context who can sort of make the data relevant, identify the key areas where data can really help, maybe demystify data and pick the right metaphors and the right examples to make it real for the people in their function. >> Right. Right. So Aaron has a lot of great stuff. People can go to the website at alation.com. I'm sure you'll have a link to this, a very prominently displayed, but, and they should and they should check it out and really think about it and think about how it applies to their own situation, their own department, company et cetera. I just wanted to give you the last word before we before we sign off, you know, kind of what was the most you know, kind of positive affirmation or not the most but one or two of the most outcome affirming outcomes of this exercise. And what were one or two of the things that were a little concerning or, you know, kind of surprises on the downside that, that came out of this research? >> Yeah. So I think one thing that was maybe surprising or concerning the biggest one is sort of where we started with that disconnect between, you know, what people would, say as an off the cuff overall assessment and the disconnect between that and what emerges when we go department by department and (indistinct) to be pillars of data culture from such a discovery to data literacy, to data governance. I think that disconnect, you know, should give one pause. I think certainly it should make one think, Hmm. Maybe I shouldn't look from 10,000 feet, but actually be a little more systematic. And considering the framework I use to assess data culture that is the most important thing to my organization. I think though, there's this quote that you move what you measure, just having this hopefully simple but not simplistic yardstick to measure data culture and the data culture index should help people be a little bit more realistic in their quantification and they track their progress, you know, quarter over quarter. So I think that's very promising. I think another thing is that, you know sometimes we ask, how long have you had this initiative? How much progress have you made? And it can sometimes seem like pushing a boulder uphill. Obviously the COVID pandemic and the economic impacts of that has been really tragic and really hard. You know, a tiny silver lining in that is the survey results showed that organizations have really observed a shift in how much they're using data because sometimes things are changing but it's like a frog in boiling water. You don't realize it. And so you just assume that the future is going to look like the recent past and you don't look at the data or you ignore the data or you miss parts of the data. And a lot of organizations said, you know COVID was this really troubling wake up call, but they could even after this crisis is over, producing enduring change which people were consulting data more and making decisions in a more data driven way. >> Yeah, certainly an accelerant that, that is for sure whether you wanted it, didn't want it, thought you had it at the time, didn't have time. You know COVID is definitely digital transformation accelerant and data is certainly the thing that powers that. Well again, it's the Alation State of Data Culture Report available, go check it at alation.com. Aaron always great to catch up and again, thank you for, for doing the work and supporting this research. And I think it's really important stuff. And it's going to be interesting to see how it changes over time. 'Cause that's really when these types of reports really start to add value. >> Thanks for having me, Jeff and I really look forward to discussing some of those trends as the research is completed. >> All right. Thanks a lot, Aaron, take care. Alright. He's Aaron and I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE, Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios today for theCUBE conversation. We're talking about data. We're always talking about data and it's really interesting. You know we like to go out and get you the first person insight from the people that start the companies, run the companies, the practitioners and, and, and get the insight directly from them. We also like to go out and get original research and hear from original research. And this is a great opportunity to hear from both. So we're excited to have, and welcome back into the studio. He's Aaron Kalb. He's the co founder of Alation, many time CUBE alumni. Aaron. Great to see you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to be here. >> Yeah, it's very cool. But today it's a special, a special thing. We've never done this before with you. You guys are releasing a brand new report called, the Alation State of Data Culture Report. So really interesting report. A lot of great information that we're going to dig in here for the next few minutes. But before we do, tell us kind of the history of this report. This is a, the kind of the inaugural release. What was kind of behind it, why did you guys do this? And give us a little background before we get into the details. >> Absolutely. So, yes, that's exactly right. It's debuting today that we plan to kind of update this research quarterly we going to see the trends over time. And this emerged because, you know, I, part of my job, I talk to chief data officers and chief analytics officers across our customer base and prospects. And I keep hearing anecdotally over and over that establishing a data culture, is often the number one priority for these data leaders and for these organizations. And so we wanted to really say, can we quantify that? Can we agree upon a definition of data culture? And can we create sort of a simple yardstick to more objectively measure where organizations are on this sort of data maturity curve to get it into culture. >> Right. I love it. So you created this data, data index right? The data culture index. And, and I think it's important to look at methodology. I think people, a lot of times go right to the results on reports before talking about the methodologies. And let's talk about the methodologies cause we're supposed to be talking about data, right? So you talked to 300, some odd executives, correct. And I think it's really interesting and you broke it down into three kind of buckets of data literacy, if you will. Data search and discovery, number one, data, two kind of literacy in terms of their ability to work with the data. And then the third bucket is really data governance. And then in, in the form ABCD, you gave him a four point score and basically, are they doing it well? Are they doing it in the majority of the time? Are they doing it about half, they got one or they got a zero and you get this four point scale and you end up with a 12 point scale which we're all familiar with from, from school, from an A to an, A minus and B, et cetera. Just dig it a little bit on those three categories and how you chose those. So the first one again is kind of the data search and discovery, you know can they find it and then their competency, if you will and then a governance and compliance. Kind of dig into each of those three buckets a little bit. >> For sure. So, so the, the end goal in data culture, is to have an organization in which data is valued and decisions are made based on data and evidence, right? Versus a culture in which we go with the highest paid person's opinion or what we did last quarter or any of these other ways things get done. And so the idea is to make that possible, as you said you've to be able to find the data when you need it. That's the data search and discovery. You've to be able to interpret that data correctly and draw valid conclusions from it. And that's a data literacy, excuse me. And both of those are contingent upon having data governance in place. So that data is well-defined and has high data quality, as well as other aspects, so that it is possible to find it and understand it properly. >> Right. And what are the things too that I think is really important that we call that, and again, we're going to dive into the details, is your perceived execution versus the reported execution by the people that are actually providing data. And I think you've found and you've highlighted on specific slides that you know, there's not necessarily a match there. And sometimes that you know, what you perceive is happening, isn't necessarily what's happening when you go down and query the people in the field. So really important to come up with a number. And I think a, I think you said this is going to be an ongoing thing over a period of time. So you kind of start to see longitudinal changes in these organizations. >> Absolutely. And we're very excited to see those, those trends over time. But even at the outset is this you know, very striking effect emerges which is, as you said, if we ask one of these you know, 300 data leaders, you know, all around the world actually, you know, if we ask, how is the data culture at your company overall, and this is very broad general top down way and have them graded on the sort of SaaS scale. You know, we get results where there's a large gap between kind of that level of maturity and what emerges in a bottom up methodology excuse me, in which you ask about, you know governance and literacy and, and such kind of by department and in a more bottom up way. And so we do see that that, you know, it can be helpful, even for data people to have a, a more granular metric and framework for quantifying their progress. >> Right? Let's jump into some of the results. It's, it's a fascinating, they're kind of all over the map, but there's some definite trends. One of the trends you talked about is that there's a lot of questions on the quality of the data. But that's a real inhibitor to people. Whether that suspicion is because it's not good data. And I don't know, this question for you, is, is, do they think it's not relevant to the decision that's being made? Is it an incomplete data set or the wrong data set? It seems to be that keeps coming up over and over about, decision-makers not necessarily having confidence in the data. What, can you share a little bit more color around that? >> Yeah, it's quite interesting actually. So what we find is that 90%. So 90 people, 10 executives (indistinct) to question the data sometimes often or always. But the part that's maybe disappointing or concerning is the two thirds of executives are believed to ignore the data and make a decision kind of pushing the data aside which is really quite striking when you think about it, why have all this data, if more often than not you're sort of disregarding it to make your final answer. And so you're absolutely correct when we dug into why, what are the reasons behind pushing it aside. Data quality was number one. And I think it is a question of, Oh, is the data inaccurate? Is it out of date, these sort of concerns sort of we, we hear from customers and prospects. But as we dig in deeper in the survey results, excuse me, we, we see some other reasons behind that. One is a lack of collaboration between the data analytics folks and the business folks. And so there's a question of, I don't know exactly where this data came from or to your point kind of how it was produced. What was the methodology? How was it sourced? And maybe because of that disconnect is a lack of trust. So trust really is the ultimate I think, failure to having data culture really take root. >> Right? And it's trust in this trust, as you said, not only in the data per se, the source of the data, the quality of the data, the relevance of the data but also the people who are providing you with the data. And obviously you get, you get some data sets. Sometimes you didn't get other data sets. So, that's really I'm a little bit disconcerting. The other thing I thought was kind of interesting is, it seems to be consistent that the, the primary reason that people are using big data projects is around operations and operations efficiency, a little bit about compliance, but, you know, it's interesting we had you on at the MIT CDOIQ, Chief Data Information Officer quality symposium, and you talked about the goodness of people moving from kind of a defensive posture to an offensive posture, you know using data in terms of product development and innovation. And, and what comes across in this survey is that's kind of down the list behind you know, kind of operational efficiency. We're seeing a little bit of governance and regulation but the, the quest for data as a tool for innovation, didn't really shine through in this report. >> Well, you know, it's very interesting. It depends whether you look at the aggregate level or you break things down a little bit more. So one thing we did after we got that zero to 12 scale on the data culture index or DCI, is it actually, we were able to break it down into thirds. And among the sort of bottom third, it has the least well-established data culture by this yardstick. We've found that governance and regulatory compliance, was the number one application of data. But among the top third of respondents, we actually found the opposite where things like providing a great customer experience, doing product innovation, those sort of things actually came to the fore and governance fell behind. So I think there is this curve where, It's table stakes to get the sort of defense side of data figured out. And then you can move on to offense in using data to make your organization meet its meet its other goals. >> Right. Right. And then I wanted to get your take on kind of the democratization of data, right? This is a, this is a trend that's been going on, and really, I think you said before you know, your guys' whole mission is to empower curious and rational world to give people the ability to ask the right questions have the right data and get the right answer. So, you know, we've seen democratization in terms of the access to the data, the access to the tools, the ability to do something with the data and the tool, and then the actual authority to execute business decision based on that. The results on that seem a little bit split here because a lot of the problems seem to be focused on leadership, not necessarily taking a data based decision move, but on the good hand a lot of people trying to break down data silos and make data more accessible for a larger group of people. So that more people in the organization are making data based decisions. This seems kind of like this little bit of a bifurcation between the C suite and everybody else trying to get their job done. >> Absolutely. There's always this question of you know, sort of the, that organizational wide initiative and then what's happening on the ground. One thing we saw that was very heartening and aligns with our customers index success, is a real emphasis being placed on having data governance and data context and data literacy factors sort of be embedded at the point of use. To not expecting people, to just like take a course and look things up and kind of end up with their workflow to be able to use data quickly and accurately and, and interpret it in varied ways. So that was really exciting to see as, as, as a initiative. It sort of bridges that gap along with initiatives to have more collaboration and integration between the data people and the business people. because really you know, they exist to serve one another. But in terms of the disconnect between the C suite and other parts of the org, there was a really interesting inverse correlation. Well, or maybe it's not interesting how you look at it, but basically, you know, when we talk to C level executives and ask, you know, does the C suite ignore data? Do they question data et cetera, those numbers came in lower than when we talked to, you know, senior director about the C suite right? It's sort of the farther you get, and there's a difference there, you know, from my perspective, I almost wonder whether that distance is actually is more objective viewpoint. And when you're in that role, it's hard to even see your cognitive biases and your tendency to ignore a data when it doesn't suit you. >> Right. Right. So there's, there's some other interesting things here. So one of them is, you know, kind of predictors, right? One of the whole reasons to do studies and collect data so that we can have some predictive ability. And, and it comes out here that the reporting structure is a strong predictor of a company's data tier structure. So, you know, there's the whole rise of the chief data officers and the chief analytics officer and the chief data and analytics officer and lots of conversations about those roles and what exactly are those roles and who do they report to. Your study finds a pretty compelling leading indicator that if that role is reporting to either the CEO or the executive board, which is often a one in the same person, that that's actually a terrific indicator of success in moving to a more data centric culture. >> That's absolutely correct. So we found that that top third of organizations on the data culture index were much more likely to have a chief data executive, a CDO, CAO or CDAO. In fact, they're more likely to have folks with the analytics in their title because in some organizations, data is thought to mean sort of raw data, infrastructural defense and analytics is sort of where it gets you know, infused into business processes and value. But certainly that top third is much more likely to have the chief data executive reporting into the executive board or CEO when the highest ranking data executive is under the CIO or some other part of the organization, those orgs tend to score a far lower on the DCI. >> Right. Right. So it's interesting, you know you're a really interesting guy even doing this for a while. You were at Siri before you were at Alation. So you have a really good feel for kind of what data can do and can't do and natural human or natural language processing and, and, and human voice interaction with these devices, a really interesting case study, and they can do a really good job within a small defined data set and instruction set, but they don't do necessarily so well once you kind of get outside how, how they're trained. And you've talked a lot about how metaphor shaped the way that we think and I know you and Dave talked about data oil and data lakes I don't want to necessarily go down that whole path but I do think it's important. And what came out of the study and the way people think about data. You know, there's a lot of conversation. How do you value data? Is data, you know it used to just be an expense that we had to buy servers to store the stuff we weren't sure what we ever did with it. So I wonder if there's any, you know, kind of top level metaphors level, kind of a thought or process or framing in the companies that you study that came out. maybe not necessarily in the top line data, but maybe in some of the notes that help define why some people, you know are being successful at making this transition and putting, you know kind of data out front of their decision processing versus data, either behind as a supporting thing or maybe data, I just don't have time with it or I don't trust it, or God knows where you got that, and this is not the data that I wanted. You know, was there any, you know, kind of tangental or anecdotal stuff that came out of this study that's more reflective of, of the softer parts of a data culture versus the harder parts in terms of titles and roles and, and, and job responsibilities. >> Yeah. It's a really interesting place to explore. I do think there's a, I don't want to make this overly simplistic group binary, but at the end of the day you know, like anything else within an organization, you can view data as a liability to say, okay, we have for example, you know, customer's names and phone numbers and passwords, and we just need to prevent an adverse event in which there's a leak or some sort of InfoSec problem that could cause, you know, bad press and fines and other negative consequences. And I think the issue there is if data's a liability, the most you know, the best case is that it's worth zero as opposed to some huge negative on your company's balance sheet. And, and I think, you know, intuitively, if you really want to prevent data misuse and data problems, one fail safe, but I think ultimately in its own way risky way to do that was just not collect any data, right. And not store it. So I think that the transition is to say, look data must be protected and taken care of that's step zero. But you know, it's really just the beginning and data is this asset that can be used to inform the huge company level strategic decisions that are made in annual planning at the board level, down to the millions of little decisions every day in the work of people in customer support and in sales and in product management and in, you know, various roles that just across industries. And I think once you have that, that shift, you know the upside is potentially, you know, unbounded. >> Right. And, and it just changes the way, the way you think. And suddenly instead of saying, Oh, data needs to be kind of hidden away, it's more like, Oh, people need to be trained on data use and empowered with data. And it's all about not if it's used or if it's misused but really how it's used and why it's used, what it's being used for to make a real impact. >> Right. Right. And it's funny when I just remember it being back in business school one of the great things that help teach is to think in terms of data, right. And you always have the infamous center consulting interview question, How many manhole covers are in Manhattan. Right. So, you know, to, to, to start to think about that problem from a data centric, point of view really gives you a leg up and, and even, you know where to start and how to attack those types of problems. And I thought it was interesting you know, talking about challenges for people to have a more data centric, point of view. It's interesting. The reports says, basically everybody said there's all kinds of challenges around data quality and compliance, and they had democratization. But the bottom companies, the bottom companies said that the biggest challenge was lack of buy in from company leadership. So I guess the good news bad news is that there's a real opportunity to make a significant change and get your company from the bottom third to a middle third or a top third, simply by taking a change in attitude about putting data in a much more central role in your decision making process. 'Cause all the other stuff's kind of operational, execution challenges that we all have, not enough people, blah, blah, blah. But in terms of attitude of leadership and prioritization, that's something that's very easy to change if you so choose. And really seems to be the key to unlock this real journey as opposed to the minutiae of a lot of the little details that that are a challenge for everybody. >> Absolutely. In your changing attitudes might be the easiest thing or the hardest thing depending on (indistinct). But I think you're absolutely right. The first step, which, which which could, maybe it should be easy, is admitting that you have a problem or maybe to put it more positively, realizing you have an opportunity. >> I love that. And then just again, looking at the top tier companies, the other thing that I thought was pretty interesting in this study is, I'm looking at it here, is getting champions in each of the operational segments. So rather than, I mean, a chief data officer is important and you know, somebody kind of at the high level to shepherd it in the executive suite, as we just discussed, but within each of the individual tasks and functions and roles, whether that's operations or customer service or product development or operational efficiency, you need some type of champion, some type of person, you know, banging the gavel, collecting the data, smoothing out the complexities, helping people get their thing together. And again, another way to really elevate your position on the score. >> Absolutely. And I think this idea of again, bridging between, you know, if data is centralized you have a chance to try to really get excellent practices within the data org. But even it becomes even more essential to have those ambassadors, people who are in the business and understand all the business context who can sort of make the data relevant, identify the key areas where data can really help, maybe demystify data and pick the right metaphors and the right examples to make it real for the people in their function. >> Right. Right. So Aaron has a lot of great stuff. People can go to the website at alation.com. I'm sure you'll have a link to this, a very prominently displayed, but, and they should and they should check it out and really think about it and think about how it applies to their own situation, their own department, company et cetera. I just wanted to give you the last word before we before we sign off, you know, kind of what was the most you know, kind of positive affirmation or not the most but one or two of the most outcome affirming outcomes of this exercise. And what were one or two of the things that were a little concerning or, you know, kind of surprises on the downside that, that came out of this research? >> Yeah. So I think one thing that was maybe surprising or concerning the biggest one is sort of where we started with that disconnect between, you know, what people would, say as an off the cuff overall assessment and the disconnect between that and what emerges when we go department by department and (indistinct) to be pillars of data culture from such a discovery to data literacy, to data governance. I think that disconnect, you know, should give one pause. I think certainly it should make one think, Hmm. Maybe I shouldn't look from 10,000 feet, but actually be a little more systematic. And considering the framework I use to assess data culture that is the most important thing to my organization. I think though, there's this quote that you move what you measure, just having this hopefully simple but not simplistic yardstick to measure data culture and the data culture index should help people be a little bit more realistic in their quantification and they track their progress, you know, quarter over quarter. So I think that's very promising. I think another thing is that, you know sometimes we ask, how long have you had this initiative? How much progress have you made? And it can sometimes seem like pushing a boulder uphill. Obviously the COVID pandemic and the economic impacts of that has been really tragic and really hard. You know, a tiny silver lining in that is the survey results showed that organizations have really observed a shift in how much they're using data because sometimes things are changing but it's like a frog in boiling water. You don't realize it. And so you just assume that the future is going to look like the recent past and you don't look at the data or you ignore the data or you miss parts of the data. And a lot of organizations said, you know COVID was this really troubling wake up call, but they could even after this crisis is over, producing enduring change which people were consulting data more and making decisions in a more data driven way. >> Yeah, certainly an accelerant that, that is for sure whether you wanted it, didn't want it, thought you had it at the time, didn't have time. You know COVID is definitely digital transformation accelerant and data is certainly the thing that powers that. Well again, it's the Alation State of Data Culture Report available, go check it at alation.com. Aaron always great to catch up and again, thank you for, for doing the work and supporting this research. And I think it's really important stuff. And it's going to be interesting to see how it changes over time. 'Cause that's really when these types of reports really start to add value. >> Thanks for having me, Jeff and I really look forward to discussing some of those trends as the research is completed. >> All right. Thanks a lot, Aaron, take care. Alright. He's Aaron and I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE, Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCube with digital coverage of MIT, Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is the seventh year of theCubes coverage of the MIT, Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium. We love getting to talk to these chief data officers and the people in this ecosystem, the importance of data, driving data-driven cultures, and really happy to welcome to the program, first time guests Eileen Vitrine, Eileen is the Chief Data Officer for the United States Air Force, Eileen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you Stu really excited about being here today. >> All right, so the United States Air Force, I believe had it first CDO office in 2017, you were put in the CDO role in June of 2018. If you could, bring us back, give us how that was formed inside the Air force and how you came to be in that role. >> Well, Stu I like to say that we are a startup organization and a really mature organization, so it's really about culture change and it began by bringing a group of amazing citizen airman reservists back to the Air Force to bring their skills from industry and bring them into the Air Force. So, I like to say that we're a total force because we have active and reservists working with civilians on a daily basis and one of the first things we did in June was we stood up a data lab, that's based in the Jones building on Andrews Air Force Base. And there, we actually take small use cases that have enterprise focus, and we really try to dig deep to try to drive data insights, to inform senior leaders across the department on really important, what I would call enterprise focused challenges, it's pretty exciting. >> Yeah, it's been fascinating when we've dug into this ecosystem, of course while the data itself is very sensitive and I'm sure for the Air Force, there are some very highest level of security, the practices that are done as to how to leverage data, the line between public and private blurs, because you have people that have come from industry that go into government and people that are from government that have leveraged their experiences there. So, if you could give us a little bit of your background and what it is that your charter has been and what you're looking to build out, as you mentioned that culture of change. >> Well, I like to say I began my data leadership journey as an active duty soldier in the army, and I was originally a transportation officer, today we would use the title condition based maintenance, but back then, it was really about running the numbers so that I could optimize my truck fleet on the road each and every day, so that my soldiers were driving safely. Data has always been part of my leadership journey and so I like to say that one of our challenges is really to make sure that data is part of every airmans core DNA, so that they're using the right data at the right level to drive insights, whether it's tactical, operational or strategic. And so it's really about empowering each and every airman, which I think is pretty exciting. >> There's so many pieces of that data, you talk about data quality, there's obviously the data life cycle. I know your presentation that you're given here at the CDO, IQ talks about the data platform that your team has built, could you explain that? What are the key tenants and what maybe differentiates it from what other organizations might have done? >> So, when we first took the challenge to build our data lab, we really wanted to really come up. Our goal was to have a cross domain solution where we could solve data problems at the appropriate classification level. And so we built the VAULT data platform, VAULT stands for visible, accessible, understandable, linked, and trustworthy. And if you look at the DOD data strategy, they will also add the tenants of interoperability and secure. So, the first steps that we have really focused on is making data visible and accessible to airmen, to empower them, to drive insights from available data to solve their problems. So, it's really about that data empowerment, we like to use the hashtag built by airmen because it's really about each and every airman being part of the solution. And I think it's really an exciting time to be in the Air Force because any airman can solve a really hard challenge and it can very quickly wrap it up rapidly, escalate up with great velocity to senior leadership, to be an enterprise solution. >> Is there some basic training that goes on from a data standpoint? For any of those that have lived in data, oftentimes you can get lost in numbers, you have to have context, you need to understand how do I separate good from bad data, or when is data still valid? So, how does someone in the Air Force get some of that beta data competency? >> Well, we have taken a multitenant approach because each and every airman has different needs. So, we have quite a few pathfinders across the Air Force today, to help what I call, upscale our total force. And so I developed a partnership with the Air Force Institute of Technology and they now have a online graduate level data science certificate program. So, individuals studying at AFIT or remotely have the opportunity to really focus on building up their data touchpoints. Just recently, we have been working on a pathfinder to allow our data officers to get their ICCP Federal Data Sector Governance Certificate Program. So, we've been running what I would call short boot camps to prep data officers to be ready for that. And I think the one that I'm most excited about is that this year, this fall, new cadets at the U.S Air Force Academy will be able to have an undergraduate degree in data science and so it's not about a one prong approach, it's about having short courses as well as academe solutions to up skill our total force moving forward. >> Well, information absolutely is such an important differentiator(laughs) in general business and absolutely the military aspects are there. You mentioned the DOD talks about interoperability in their platform, can you speak a little bit to how you make sure that data is secure? Yet, I'm sure there's opportunities for other organizations, for there to be collaboration between them. >> Well, I like to say, that we don't fight alone. So, I work on a daily basis with my peers, Tom Cecila at the Department of Navy and Greg Garcia at the Department of Army, as well as Mr. David Berg in the DOD level. It's really important that we have an integrated approach moving forward and in the DOD we partner with our security experts, so it's not about us doing security individually, it's really about, in the Air Force we use a term called digital air force, and it's about optimizing and building a trusted partnership with our CIO colleagues, as well as our chief management colleagues because it's really about that trusted partnership to make sure that we're working collaboratively across the enterprise and whatever we do in the department, we also have to reach across our services so that we're all working together. >> Eileen, I'm curious if there's been much impact from the global pandemic. When I talk to enterprise companies, that they had to rapidly make sure that while they needed to protect data, when it was in their four walls and maybe for VPN, now everyone is accessing data, much more work from home and the like. I have to imagine some of those security measures you've already taken, but have there anything along those lines or anything else that this shift in where people are, and a little bit more dispersed has impacted your work? >> Well, the story that I like to say is, that this has given us velocity. So, prior to COVID, we built our VAULT data platform as a multitenancy platform that is also cross-domain solution, so it allows people to develop and do their problem solving in an appropriate classification level. And it allows us to connect or pushup if we need to into higher classification levels. The other thing that it has helped us really work smart because we do as much as we can in that unclassified environment and then using our cloud based solution in our gateways, it allows us to bring people in at a very scheduled component so that we maximize, or we optimize their time on site. And so I really think that it's really given us great velocity because it has really allowed people to work on the right problem set, on the right class of patient level at a specific time. And plus the other pieces, we look at what we're doing is that the problem set that we've had has really allowed people to become more data focused. I think that it's personal for folks moving forward, so it has increased understanding in terms of the need for data insights, as we move forward to drive decision making. It's not that data makes the decision, but it's using the insight to make the decision. >> And one of the interesting conversations we've been having about how to get to those data insights is the use of things like machine learning, artificial intelligence, anything you can share about, how you're looking at that journey, where you are along that discovery. >> Well, I love to say that in order to do AI and machine learning, you have to have great volumes of high quality data. And so really step one was visible, accessible data, but we in the Department of the Air Force stood up an accelerator at MIT. And so we have a group of amazing airmen that are actually working with MIT on a daily basis to solve some of those, what I would call opportunities for us to move forward. My office collaborates with them on a consistent basis, because they're doing additional use cases in that academic environment, which I'm pretty excited about because I think it gives us access to some of the smartest minds. >> All right, Eileen also I understand it's your first year doing the event. Unfortunately, we don't get, all come together in Cambridge, walking those hallways and being able to listen to some of those conversations and follow up is something we've very much enjoyed over the years. What excites you about being interact with your peers and participating in the event this year? >> Well, I really think it's about helping each other leverage the amazing lessons learned. I think that if we look collaboratively, both across industry and in the federal sector, there have been amazing lessons learned and it gives us a great forum for us to really share and leverage those lessons learned as we move forward so that we're not hitting the reboot button, but we actually are starting faster. So, it comes back to the velocity component, it all helps us go faster and at a higher quality level and I think that's really exciting. >> So, final question I have for you, we've talked for years about digital transformation, we've really said that having that data strategy and that culture of leveraging data is one of the most critical pieces of having gone through that transformation. For people that are maybe early on their journey, any advice that you'd give them, having worked through a couple of years of this and the experience you've had with your peers. >> I think that the first thing is that you have to really start with a blank slate and really look at the art of the possible. Don't think about what you've always done, think about where you want to go because there are many different paths to get there. And if you look at what the target goal is, it's really about making sure that you do that backward tracking to get to that goal. And the other piece that I tell my colleagues is celebrate the wins. My team of airmen, they are amazing, it's an honor to serve them and the reality is that they are doing great things and sometimes you want more. And it's really important to celebrate the victories because it's a very long journey and we keep moving the goalposts because we're always striving for excellence. >> Absolutely, it is always a journey that we're on, it's not about the destination. Eileen, thank you so much for sharing all that you've learned and glad you could participate. >> Thank you, STU, I appreciate being included today. Have a great day. >> Thanks and thank you for watching theCube. I'm Stu Miniman stay tuned for more from the MIT, CDO IQ event. (lively upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality symposium brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi everybody. This is Dave Vellante and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the MIT CDOIQ 2020 event. Of course, it's gone virtual. We wish we were all together in Cambridge. They were going to move into a new building this year for years they've done this event at the Tang Center, moving into a new facility, but unfortunately going to have to wait at least a year, we'll see, But we've got a great guest. Nonetheless, Doug Laney is here. He's a Business Value Strategist, the bestselling author, an analyst, consultant then a long time CUBE friend. Doug, great to see you again. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Dave, great to be with you again as well. So can I ask you? You have been an advocate for obviously measuring the value of data, the CDO role. I don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like the last 150 days have done more to accelerate people's attention on the importance of data and the value of data than all the great work that you've done. What do you think? (laughing) >> It's always great when organizations, actually take advantage of some of these concepts of data value. You may be speaking specifically about the situation with United Airlines and American Airlines, where they have basically collateralized their customer loyalty data, their customer loyalty programs to the tunes of several billion dollars each. And one of the things that's very interesting about that is that the third party valuations of their customer loyalty data, resulted in numbers that were larger than the companies themselves. So basically the value of their data, which is as we've discussed previously off balance sheet is more valuable than the market cap of those companies themselves, which is just incredibly fascinating. >> Well, and of course, all you have to do is look to the Trillionaire's Club. And now of course, Apple pushing two trillion to really see the value that the market places on data. But the other thing is of course, COVID, everybody talks about the COVID acceleration. How have you seen it impact the awareness of the importance of data, whether it applies to business resiliency or even new monetization models? If you're not digital, you can't do business. And digital is all about data. >> I think the major challenge that most organizations are seeing from a data and analytics perspective due to COVID is that their traditional trend based forecast models are broken. If you're a company that's only forecasting based on your own historical data and not taking into consideration, or even identifying what are the leading indicators of your business, then COVID and the economic shutdown have entirely broken those models. So it's raised the awareness of companies to say, "Hey, how can we predict our business now? We can't do it based on our own historical data. We need to look externally at what are those external, maybe global indicators or other kinds of markets that proceed our own forecasts or our own activity." And so the conversion from trend based forecast models to what we call driver based forecast models, isn't easy for a lot of organizations to do. And one of the more difficult parts is identifying what are those external data factors from suppliers, from customers, from partners, from competitors, from complimentary products and services that are leading indicators of your business. And then recasting those models and executing on them. >> And that's a great point. If you think about COVID and how it's changed things, everything's changed, right? The ideal customer profile has changed, your value proposition to those customers has completely changed. You got to rethink that. And of course, it's very hard to predict even when this thing eventually comes back, some kind of hybrid mode, you used to be selling to people in an office environment. That's obviously changed. There's a lot that's permanent there. And data is potentially at least the forward indicator, the canary in the coal mine. >> Right. It also is the product and service. So not only can it help you and improve your forecasting models, but it can become a product or service that you're offering. Look at us right now, we would generally be face to face and person to person, but we're using video technology to transfer this content. And then one of the things that I... It took me awhile to realize, but a couple of months after the COVID shutdown, it occurred to me that even as a consulting organization, Caserta focuses on North America. But the reality is that every consultancy is now a global consultancy because we're all doing business remotely. There are no particular or real strong localization issues for doing consulting today. >> So we talked a lot over the years about the role of the CDO, how it's evolved, how it's changed the course of the early... The pre-title days it was coming out of a data quality world. And it's still vital. Of course, as we heard today from the Keynote, it's much more public, much more exposed, different public data sources, but the role has certainly evolved initially into regulated industries like financial, healthcare and government, but now, many, many more organizations have a CDO. My understanding is that you're giving a talk in the business case for the CDO. Help us understand that. >> Yeah. So one of the things that we've been doing here for the last couple of years is a running an ongoing study of how organizations are impacted by the role of the CDO. And really it's more of a correlation and looking at what are some of the qualities of organizations that have a CDO or don't have a CDO. So some of the things we found is that organizations with a CDO nearly twice as often, mention the importance of data and analytics in their annual report organizations with a C level CDO, meaning a true executive are four times more often likely to be using data, to transform the business. And when we're talking about using data and advanced analytics, we found that organizations with a CIO, not a CDO responsible for their data assets are only half as likely to be doing advanced analytics in any way. So there are a number of interesting things that we found about companies that have a CDO and how they operate a bit differently. >> I want to ask you about that. You mentioned the CIO and we're increasingly seeing lines of reporting and peer reporting alter shift. The sands are shifting a little bit. In the early days the CDO and still predominantly I think is an independent organization. We've seen a few cases and increasingly number where they're reporting into the CIO, we've seen the same thing by the way with the chief Information Security Officer, which used to be considered the fox watching the hen house. So we're seeing those shifts. We've also seen the CDO become more aligned with a technical role and sometimes even emerging out of that technical role. >> Yeah. I think the... I don't know, what I've seen more is that the CDOs are emerging from the business, companies are realizing that data is a business asset. It's not an IT asset. There was a time when data was tightly coupled with applications of technologies, but today data is very easily decoupled from those applications and usable in a wider variety of contexts. And for that reason, as data gets recognized as a business, not an IT asset, you want somebody from the business responsible for overseeing that asset. Yes, a lot of CDOs still report to the CIO, but increasingly more CDOs you're seeing and I think you'll see some other surveys from other organizations this week where the CDOs are more frequently reporting up to the CEO level, meaning they're true executives. Along I advocated for the bifurcation of the IT organization into separate I and T organizations. Again, there's no reason other than for historical purposes to keep the data and technology sides of the organizations so intertwined. >> Well, it makes sense that the Chief Data Officer would have an affinity with the lines of business. And you're seeing a lot of organizations, really trying to streamline their data pipeline, their data life cycles, bringing that together, infuse intelligence into that, but also take a systems view and really have the business be intimately involved, if not even owned into the data. You see a lot of emphasis on self-serve, what are you seeing in terms of that data pipeline or the data life cycle, if you will, that used to be wonky, hard core techies, but now it really involving a lot more constituent. >> Yeah. Well, the data life cycle used to be somewhat short. The data life cycles, they're longer and they're more a data networks than a life cycle and or a supply chain. And the reason is that companies are finding alternative uses for their data, not just using it for a single operational purpose or perhaps reporting purpose, but finding that there are new value streams that can be generated from data. There are value streams that can be generated internally. There are a variety of value streams that can be generated externally. So we work with companies to identify what are those variety of value streams? And then test their feasibility, are they ethically feasible? Are they legally feasible? Are they economically feasible? Can they scale? Do you have the technology capabilities? And so we'll run through a process of assessing the ideas that are generated. But the bottom line is that companies are realizing that data is an asset. It needs to be not just measured as one and managed as one, but also monetized as an asset. And as we've talked about previously, data has these unique qualities that it can be used over and over again, and it generate more data when you use it. And it can be used simultaneously for multiple purposes. So companies like, you mentioned, Apple and others have built business models, based on these unique qualities of data. But I think it's really incumbent upon any organization today to do so as well. >> But when you observed those companies that we talk about all the time, data is at the center of their organization. They maybe put people around that data. That's got to be one of the challenge for many of the incumbents is if we talked about the data silos, the different standards, different data quality, that's got to be fairly major blocker for people becoming a "Data-driven organization." >> It is because some organizations were developed as people driven product, driven brand driven, or other things to try to convert. To becoming data-driven, takes a high degree of data literacy or fluency. And I think there'll be a lot of talk about that this week. I'll certainly mention it as well. And so getting the organization to become data fluent and appreciate data as an asset and understand its possibilities and the art of the possible with data, it's a long road. So the culture change that goes along with it is really difficult. And so we're working with 150 year old consumer brand right now that wants to become more data-driven and they're very product driven. And we hear the CIO say, "We want people to understand that we're a data company that just happens to produce this product. We're not a product company that generates data." And once we realized that and started behaving in that fashion, then we'll be able to really win and thrive in our marketplace. >> So one of the key roles of a Chief Data Officers to understand how data affects the monetization of an organization. Obviously there are four profit companies of your healthcare organization saving lives, obviously being profitable as well, or at least staying within the budget, depending upon the structure of the organization. But a lot of people I think oftentimes misunderstand that it's like, "Okay, do I have to become a data broker? Am I selling data directly?" But I think, you pointed out many times and you just did that unlike oil, that's why we don't like that data as a new oil analogy, because it's so much more valuable and can be use, it doesn't fall because of its scarcity. But what are you finding just in terms of people's application of that notion of monetization? Cutting costs, increasing revenue, what are you seeing in the field? What's that spectrum look like? >> So one of the things I've done over the years is compile a library of hundreds and hundreds of examples of how organizations are using data and analytics in innovative ways. And I have a book in process that hopefully will be out this fall. I'm sharing a number of those inspirational examples. So that's the thing that organizations need to understand is that there are a variety of great examples out there, and they shouldn't just necessarily look to their own industry. There are inspirational examples from other industries as well, many clients come to me and they ask, "What are others in my industry doing?" And my flippant response to that is, "Why do you want to be in second place or third place? Why not take an idea from another industry, perhaps a digital product company and apply that to your own business." But like you mentioned, there are a variety of ways to monetize data. It doesn't involve necessarily selling it. You can deliver analytics, you can report on it, you can use it internally to generate improved business process performance. And as long as you're measuring how data's being applied and what its impact is, then you're in a position to claim that you're monetizing it. But if you're not measuring the impact of data on business processes or on customer relationships or partner supplier relationships or anything else, then it's difficult to claim that you're monetizing it. But one of the more interesting ways that we've been working with organizations to monetize their data, certainly in light of GDPR and the California consumer privacy act where I can't sell you my data anymore, but we've identified ways to monetize your customer data in a couple of ways. One is to synthesize the data, create synthetic data sets that retain the original statistical anomalies in the data or features of the data, but don't share actually any PII. But another interesting way that we've been working with organizations to monetize their data is what I call, Inverted data monetization, where again, I can't share my customer data with you, but I can share information about your products and services with my customers. And take a referral fee or a commission, based on that. So let's say I'm a hospital and I can't sell you my patient data, of course, due to variety of regulations, but I know who my diabetes patients are, and I can introduce them to your healthy meal plans, to your gym memberships, to your at home glucose monitoring kits. And again, take a referral fee or a cut of that action. So we're working with customers and the financial services firm industry and in the healthcare industry on just those kinds of examples. So we've identified hundreds of millions of dollars of incremental value for organizations that from their data that we're just sitting on. >> Interesting. Doug because you're a business value strategist at the top, where in the S curve do you see you're able to have the biggest impact. I doubt that you enter organizations where you say, "Oh, they've got it all figured out. They can't use my advice." But as well, sometimes in the early stages, you may not be able to have as big of an impact because there's not top down support or whatever, there's too much technical data, et cetera, where are you finding you can have the biggest impact, Doug? >> Generally we don't come in and run those kinds of data monetization or information innovation exercises, unless there's some degree of executive support. I've never done that at a lower level, but certainly there are lower level more immediate and vocational opportunities for data to deliver value through, to simply analytics. One of the simple examples I give is, I sold a home recently and when you put your house on the market, everybody comes out of the woodwork, the fly by night, mortgage companies, the moving companies, the box companies, the painters, the landscapers, all know you're moving because your data is in the U.S. and the MLS directory. And it was interesting. The only company that didn't reach out to me was my own bank, and so they lost the opportunity to introduce me to a Mortgage they'd retain me as a client, introduce me to my new branch, print me new checks, move the stuff in my safe deposit box, all of that. They missed a simple opportunity. And I'm thinking, this doesn't require rocket science to figure out which of your customers are moving, the MLS database or you can harvest it from Zillow or other sites is basically public domain data. And I was just thinking, how stupid simple would it have been for them to hire a high school programmer, give him a can of red bull and say, "Listen match our customer database to the MLS database to let us know who's moving on a daily or weekly basis." Some of these solutions are pretty simple. >> So is that part of what you do, come in with just hardcore tactical ideas like that? Are you also doing strategy? Tell me more about how you're spending your time. >> I trying to think more of a broader approach where we look at the data itself and again, people have said, "If you tortured enough, what would you tell us? We're just take that angle." We look at examples of how other organizations have monetized data and think about how to apply those and adapt those ideas to the company's own business. We look at key business drivers, internally and externally. We look at edge cases for their customers' businesses. We run through hypothesis generating activities. There are a variety of different kinds of activities that we do to generate ideas. And most of the time when we run these workshops, which last a week or two, we'll end up generating anywhere from 35 to 50 pretty solid ideas for generating new value streams from data. So when we talk about monetizing data, that's what we mean, generating new value streams. But like I said, then the next step is to go through that feasibility assessment and determining which of these ideas you actually want to pursue. >> So you're of course the longtime industry watcher as well, as a former Gartner Analyst, you have to be. My question is, if I think back... I've been around a while. If I think back at the peak of Microsoft's prominence in the PC era, it was like windows 95 and you felt like, "Wow, Microsoft is just so strong." And then of course the Linux comes along and a lot of open source changes and low and behold, a whole new set of leaders emerges. And you see the same thing today with the Trillionaire's Club and you feel like, "Wow, even COVID has been a tailwind for them." But you think about, "Okay, where could the disruption come to these large players that own huge clouds, they have all the data." Is data potentially a disruptor for what appear to be insurmountable odds against the newbies" >> There's always people coming up with new ways to leverage data or new sources of data to capture. So yeah, there's certainly not going to be around for forever, but it's been really fascinating to see the transformation of some companies I think nobody really exemplifies it more than IBM where they emerged from originally selling meat slicers. The Dayton Meat Slicer was their original product. And then they evolved into Manual Business Machines and then Electronic Business Machines. And then they dominated that. Then they dominated the mainframe software industry. Then they dominated the PC industry. Then they dominated the services industry to some degree. And so they're starting to get into data. And I think following that trajectory is something that really any organization should be looking at. When do you actually become a data company? Not just a product company or a service company or top. >> We have Inderpal Bhandari is one of our huge guests here. He's a Chief-- >> Sure. >> Data Officer of IBM, you know him well. And he talks about the journey that he's undertaken to transform the company into a data company. I think a lot of people don't really realize what's actually going on behind the scenes, whether it's financially oriented or revenue opportunities. But one of the things he stressed to me in our interview was that they're on average, they're reducing the end to end cycle time from raw data to insights by 70%, that's on average. And that's just an enormous, for a company that size, it's just enormous cost savings or revenue generating opportunity. >> There's no doubt that the technology behind data pipelines is improving and the process from moving data from those pipelines directly into predictive or diagnostic or prescriptive output is a lot more accelerated than the early days of data warehousing. >> Is the skills barrier is acute? It seems like it's lessened somewhat, the early Hadoop days you needed... Even data scientist... Is it still just a massive skill shortage, or we're starting to attack that. >> Well, I think companies are figuring out a way around the skill shortage by doing things like self service analytics and focusing on more easy to use mainstream type AI or advanced analytics technologies. But there's still very much a need for data scientists and organizations and the difficulty in finding people that are true data scientists. There's no real certification. And so really anybody can call themselves a data scientist but I think companies are getting good at interviewing and determining whether somebody's got the goods or not. But there are other types of skills that we don't really focus on, like the data engineering skills, there's still a huge need for data engineering. Data doesn't self-organize. There are some augmented analytics technologies that will automatically generate analytic output, but there really aren't technologies that automatically self-organize data. And so there's a huge need for data engineers. And then as we talked about, there's a large interest in external data and harvesting that and then ingesting it and even identifying what external data is out there. So one of the emerging roles that we're seeing, if not the sexiest role of the 21st century is the role of the Data Curator, somebody who acts as a librarian, identifying external data assets that are potentially valuable, testing them, evaluating them, negotiating and then figuring out how to ingest that data. So I think that's a really important role for an organization to have. Most companies have an entire department that procures office supplies, but they don't have anybody who's procuring data supplies. And when you think about which is more valuable to an organization? How do you not have somebody who's dedicated to identifying the world of external data assets that are out there? There are 10 million data sets published by government, organizations and NGOs. There are thousands and thousands of data brokers aggregating and sharing data. There's a web content that can be harvested, there's data from your partners and suppliers, there's data from social media. So to not have somebody who's on top of all that it demonstrates gross negligence by the organization. >> That is such an enlightening point, Doug. My last question is, I wonder how... If you can share with us how the pandemic has effected your business personally. As a consultant, you're on the road a lot, obviously not on the road so much, you're doing a lot of chalk talks, et cetera. How have you managed through this and how have you been able to maintain your efficacy with your clients? >> Most of our clients, given that they're in the digital world a bit already, made the switch pretty quick. Some of them took a month or two, some things went on hold but we're still seeing the same level of enthusiasm for data and doing things with data. In fact some companies have taken our (mumbles) that data to be their best defense in a crisis like this. It's affected our business and it's enabled us to do much more international work more easily than we used to. And I probably spend a lot less time on planes. So it gives me more time for writing and speaking and actually doing consulting. So that's been nice as well. >> Yeah, there's that bonus. Obviously theCUBE yes, we're not doing physical events anymore, but hey, we've got two studios operating. And Doug Laney, really appreciate you coming on. (Dough mumbles) Always a great guest and sharing your insights and have a great MIT CDOIQ. >> Thanks, you too, Dave, take care. (mumbles) >> Thanks Doug. All right. And thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, our continuous coverage of the MIT Chief Data Officer conference, MIT CDOIQ, will be right back, right after this short break. (bright music)

>> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hi everyone, this is Dave Vellante and welcome back to the Cube's coverage of the MIT CDOIQ. God, we've been covering this show since probably 2013, really trying to understand the intersection of data and organizations and data quality and how that's evolved over time. And with me to discuss these issues is Krishna Cheriath, who's the Vice President and Chief Data Officer, Bristol-Myers Squibb. Krishna, great to see you, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you so much Dave for the invite, I'm looking forward to it. >> Yeah first of all, how are things in your part of the world? You're in New Jersey, I'm also on the East coast, how you guys making out? >> Yeah, I think these are unprecedented times all around the globe and whether it is from a company perspective or a personal standpoint, it is how do you manage your life, how do you manage your work in these unprecedented COVID-19 times has been a very interesting challenge. And to me, what is most amazing has been, I've seen humanity rise up and so to our company has sort of snap to be able to manage our work so that the important medicines that have to be delivered to our patients are delivered on time. So really proud about how we have done as a company and of course, personally, it has been an interesting journey with my kids from college, remote learning, wife working from home. So I'm very lucky and blessed to be safe and healthy at this time. So hopefully the people listening to this conversation are finding that they are able to manage through their lives as well. >> Obviously Bristol-Myers Squibb, very, very strong business. You guys just recently announced your quarter. There's a biologics facility near me in Devon's, Massachusetts, I drive by it all the time, it's a beautiful facility actually. But extremely broad portfolio, obviously some COVID impact, but you're managing through that very, very well, if I understand it correctly, you're taking a collaborative approach to a COVID vaccine, you're now bringing people physically back to work, you've been very planful about that. My question is from your standpoint, what role did you play in that whole COVID response and what role did data play? >> Yeah, I think it's a two part as you rightly pointed out, the Bristol-Myers Squibb, we have been an active partner on the the overall scientific ecosystem supporting many different targets that is, from many different companies I think. Across biopharmaceuticals, there's been a healthy convergence of scientific innovation to see how can we solve this together. And Bristol-Myers Squibb have been an active participant as our CEO, as well as our Chief Medical Officer and Head of Research have articulated publicly. Within the company itself, from a data and technology standpoint, data and digital is core to the response from a company standpoint to the COVID-19, how do we ensure that our work continues when the entire global workforce pivots to a kind of a remote setting. So that really calls on the digital infrastructure to rise to the challenge, to enable a complete global workforce. And I mean workforce, it is not just employees of the company but the all of the third-party partners and others that we work with, the whole ecosystem needs to work. And I think our digital infrastructure has proven to be extremely resilient than that. From a data perspective, I think it is twofold. One is how does the core book of business of data continue to drive forward to make sure that our companies key priorities are being advanced. Secondarily, we've been partnering with a research and development organization as well as medical organization to look at what kind of real world data insights can really help in answering the many questions around COVID-19. So I think it is twofold. Main summary; one is, how do we ensure that the data and digital infrastructure of the company continues to operate in a way that allows us to progress the company's mission even during a time when globally, we have been switched to a remote working force, except for some essential staff from lab and manufacturing standpoint. And secondarily is how do we look at the real-world evidence as well as the scientific data to be a good partner with other companies to look at progressing the societal innovations needed for this. >> I think it's a really prudent approach because let's face it, sometimes one shot all vaccine can be like playing roulette. So you guys are both managing your risk and just as I say, financially, a very, very successful company in a sound approach. I want to ask you about your organization. We've interviewed many, many Chief Data Officers over the years, and there seems to be some fuzziness as to the organizational structure. It's very clear with you, you report in to the CIO, you came out of a technical bag, you have a technical degree but you also of course have a business degree. So you're dangerous from that standpoint. You got both sides which is critical, I would think in your role, but let's start with the organizational reporting structure. How did that come about and what are the benefits of reporting into the CIO? >> I think the Genesis for that as Bristol-Myers Squibb and when I say Bristol-Myers Squibb, the new Bristol-Myers Squibb is a combination of Heritage Bristol-Myers Squibb and Heritage Celgene after the Celgene acquisition last November. So in the Heritage Bristol-Myers Squibb acquisition, we came to a conclusion that in order for BMS to be able to fully capitalize on our scientific innovation potential as well as to drive data-driven decisions across the company, having a robust data agenda is key. Now the question is, how do you progress that? Historically, we had approached a very decentralized mechanism that made a different data constituencies. We didn't have a formal role of a Chief Data Officer up until 2018 or so. So coming from that realization that we need to have an effective data agenda to drive forward the necessary data-driven innovations from an analytic standpoint. And equally importantly, from optimizing our execution, we came to conclusion that we need an enterprise-level data organization, we need to have a first among equals if you will, to be mandated by the CEO, his leadership team, to be the kind of an orchestrator of a data agenda for the company, because data agenda cannot be done individually by a singular CDO. It has to be done in partnership with many stakeholders, business, technology, analytics, et cetera. So from that came this notion that we need an enterprise-wide data organization. So we started there. So for awhile, I would joke around that I had all of the accountabilities of the CDO without the lofty title. So this journey started around 2016, where we create an enterprise-wide data organization. And we made a very conscious choice of separating the data organization from analytics. And the reason we did that is when we look at the bowl of Bristol-Myers Squibb, analytics for example, is core and part of our scientific discovery process, research, our clinical development, all of them have deep data science and analytic embedded in it. But we also have other analytics whether it is part of our sales and marketing, whether it is part of our finance and our enabling functions they catch all across global procurement et cetera. So the world of analytics is very broad. BMS did a separation between the world of analytics and from the world of data. Analytics at BMS is in two modes. There is a central analytics organization called Business Insights and Analytics that drive most of the enterprise-level analytics. But then we have embedded analytics in our business areas, which is research and development, manufacturing and supply chain, et cetera, to drive what needs to be closer to the business idea. And the reason for separating that out and having a separate data organization is that none of these analytic aspirations or the business aspirations from data will be met if the world of data is, you don't have the right level of data available, the velocity of data is not appropriate for the use cases, the quality of data is not great or the control of the data. So that we are using the data for the right intent, meeting the compliance and regulatory expectations around the data is met. So that's why we separated out that data world from the analytics world, which is a little bit of a unique construct for us compared to what we see generally in the world of CDOs. And from that standpoint, then the decision was taken to make that report for global CIO. At Bristol-Myers Squibb, they have a very strong CIO organization and IT organization. When I say strong, it is from this lens standpoint. A, it is centralized, we have centralized the budget as well as we have centralized the execution across the enterprise. And the CDO reporting to the CIO with that data-specific agenda, has a lot of value in being able to connect the world of data with the world of technology. So at BMS, their Chief Data Officer organization is a combination of traditional CDO-type accountabilities like data risk management, data governance, data stewardship, but also all of the related technologies around master data management, data lake, data and analytic engineering and a nascent AI data and technology lab. So that construct allows us to be a true enterprise horizontal, supporting analytics, whether it is done in a central analytics organization or embedded analytics teams in the business area, but also equally importantly, focus on the world of data from operational execution standpoint, how do we optimize data to drive operational effectiveness? So that's the construct that we have where CDO reports to the CIO, data organization separated from analytics to really focus around the availability but also the quality and control of data. And the last nuance that is that at BMS, the Chief Data Officer organization is also accountable to be the Data Protection Office. So we orchestrate and facilitate all privacy-related actions across because that allows us to make sure that all personal data that is collected, managed and consumed, meets all of the various privacy standards across the world, as well as our own commitments as a company from across from compliance principles standpoint. >> So that makes a lot of sense to me and thank you for that description. You're not getting in the way of R&D and the scientists, they know data science, they don't need really your help. I mean, they need to innovate at their own pace, but the balance of the business really does need your innovation, and that's really where it seems like you're focused. You mentioned master data management, data lakes, data engineering, et cetera. So your responsibility is for that enterprise data lifecycle to support the business side of things, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that and how that's evolved. I mean a lot has changed from the old days of data warehouse and cumbersome ETL and you mentioned, as you say data lakes, many of those have been challenging, expensive, slow, but now we're entering this era of cloud, real-time, a lot of machine intelligence, and I wonder if you could talk about the changes there and how you're looking at and thinking about the data lifecycle and accelerating the time to insights. >> Yeah, I think the way we think about it, we as an organization in our strategy and tactics, think of this as a data supply chain. The supply chain of data to drive business value whether it is through insights and analytics or through operation execution. When you think about it from that standpoint, then we need to get many elements of that into an effective stage. This could be the technologies that is part of that data supply chain, you reference some of them, the master data management platforms, data lake platforms, the analytics and reporting capabilities and business intelligence capabilities that plug into a data backbone, which is that I would say the technology, swim lane that needs to get right. Along with that, what we also need to get right for that effective data supply chain is that data layer. That is, how do you make sure that there is the right data navigation capability, probably you make sure that we have the right ontology mapping and the understanding around the data. How do we have data navigation? It is something that we have invested very heavily in. So imagine a new employee joining BMS, any organization our size has a pretty wide technology ecosystem and data ecosystem. How do you navigate that, how do we find the data? Data discovery has been a key focus for us. So for an effective data supply chain, then we knew that and we have instituted our roadmap to make sure that we have a robust technology orchestration of it, but equally important is an effective data operations orchestration. Both needs to go hand in hand for us to be able to make sure that that supply chain is effective from a business use case and analytic use standpoint. So that has led us on a journey from a cloud perspective, since you refer that in your question, is we have invested very heavily to move from very disparate set of data ecosystems to a more converse cloud-based data backbone. That has been a big focus at the BMS since 2016, whether it is from a research and development standpoint or from commercialization, it is our word for the sales and marketing or manufacturing and supply chain and HR, et cetera. How do we create a converged data backbone that allows us to use that data as a resource to drive many different consumption patterns? Because when you imagine an enterprise of our size, we have many different consumers of the data. So those consumers have different consumption needs. You have deep data science population who just needs access to the data and they have data science platforms but they are at once programmers as well, to the other end of the spectrum where executives need pre-packaged KPIs. So the effective orchestration of the data ecosystem at BMS through a data supply chain and the data backbone, there's a couple of things for us. One, it drives productivity of our data consumers, the scientific researchers, analytic community or other operational staff. And second, in a world where we need to make sure that the data consumption appalls ethical standards as well as privacy and other regulatory expectations, we are able to build it into our system and process the necessary controls to make sure that the consumption and the use of data meets our highest trust advancements standards. >> That makes a lot of sense. I mean, converging your data like that, people always talk about stove pipes. I know it's kind of a bromide but it's true, and allows you to sort of inject consistent policies. What about automation? How has that affected your data pipeline recently and on your journey with things like data classification and the like? >> I think in pursuing a broad data automation journey, one of the things that we did was to operate at two different speed points. In a historically, the data organizations have been bundled with long-running data infrastructure programs. By the time you complete them, their business context have moved on and the organization leaders are also exhausted from having to wait from these massive programs to reach its full potential. So what we did very intentionally from our data automation journey is to organize ourselves in two speed dimensions. First, a concept called Rapid Data Lab. The idea is that recognizing the reality that the data is not well automated and orchestrated today, we need a SWAT team of data engineers, data SMEs to partner with consumers of data to make sure that we can make effective data supply chain decisions here and now, and enable the business to answer questions of today. Simultaneously in a longer time horizon, we need to do the necessary work of moving the data automation to a better footprint. So enterprise data lake investments, where we built services based on, we had chosen AWS as the cloud backbone for data. So how do we use the AWS services? How do we wrap around it with the necessary capabilities so that we have a consistent reference and technical architecture to drive the many different function journeys? So we organized ourselves into speed dimensions; the Rapid Data Lab teams focus around partnering with the consumers of data to help them with data automation needs here and now, and then a secondary team focused around the convergence of data into a better cloud-based data backbone. So that allowed us to one, make an impact here and now and deliver value from data to the dismiss here and now. Secondly, we also learned a lot from actually partnering with consumers of data on what needs to get adjusted over a period of time in our automation journey. >> It makes sense, I mean again, that whole notion of converged data, putting data at the core of your business, you brought up AWS, I wonder if I could ask you a question. You don't have to comment on specific vendors, but there's a conversation we have in our community. You have AWS huge platform, tons of partners, a lot of innovation going on and you see innovation in areas like the cloud data warehouse or data science tooling, et cetera, all components of that data pipeline. As well, you have AWS with its own tooling around there. So a question we often have in the community is will technologists and technology buyers go for kind of best of breed and cobble together different services or would they prefer to have sort of the convenience of a bundled service from an AWS or a Microsoft or Google, or maybe they even go best of breeds for all cloud. Can you comment on that, what's your thinking? >> I think, especially for organizations, our size and breadth, having a converged to convenient, all of the above from a single provider does not seem practical and feasible, because a couple of reasons. One, the heterogeneity of the data, the heterogeneity of consumption of the data and we are yet to find a single stack provider who can meet all of the different needs. So I am more in the best of breed camp with a few caveats, a hybrid best of breed, if you will. It is important to have a converged the data backbone for the enterprise. And so whether you invest in a singular cloud or private cloud or a combination, you need to have a clear intention strategy around where are you going to host the data and how is the data is going to be organized. But you could have a lot more flexibility in the consumption of data. So once you have the data converged into, in our case, we converged on AWS-based backbone. We allow many different consumptions of the data, because I think the analytic and insights layer, data science community within R&D is different from a data science community in the supply chain context, we have business intelligence needs, we have a catered needs and then there are other data needs that needs to be funneled into software as service platforms like the sales forces of the world, to be able to drive operational execution as well. So when you look at it from that context, having a hybrid model of best of breed, whether you have a lot more convergence from a data backbone standpoint, but then allow for best of breed from an analytic and consumption of data is more where my heart and my brain is. >> I know a lot of companies would be excited to hear that answer, but I love it because it fosters competition and innovation. I wish I could talk for you forever, but you made me think of another question which is around self-serve. On your journey, are you at the point where you can deliver self-serve to the lines of business? Is that something that you're trying to get to? >> Yeah, I think it does. The self-serve is an absolutely important point because I think the traditional boundaries of what you consider the classical IT versus a classical business is great. I think there is an important gray area in the middle where you have a deep citizen data scientist in the business community who really needs to be able to have access to the data and I have advanced data science and programming skills. So self-serve is important but in that, companies need to be very intentional and very conscious of making sure that you're allowing that self-serve in a safe containment sock. Because at the end of the day, whether it is a cyber risk or data risk or technology risk, it's all real. So we need to have a balanced approach between promoting whether you call it data democratization or whether you call it self-serve, but you need to balance that with making sure that you're meeting the right risk mitigation strategy standpoint. So that's how then our focus is to say, how do we promote self-serve for the communities that they need self-serve, where they have deeper levels of access? How do we set up the right safe zones for those which may be the appropriate mitigation from a cyber risk or data risk or technology risk. >> Security pieces, again, you keep bringing up topics that I could talk to you forever on, but I heard on TV the other night, I heard somebody talking about how COVID has affected, because of remote access, affected security. And it's like hey, give everybody access. That was sort of the initial knee-jerk response, but the example they gave as well, if your parents go out of town and the kid has a party, you may have some people show up that you don't want to show up. And so, same issue with remote working, work from home. Clearly you guys have had to pivot to support that, but where does the security organization fit? Does that report separate alongside the CIO? Does it report into the CIO? Are they sort of peers of yours, how does that all work? >> Yeah, I think at Bristol-Myers Squibb, we have a Chief Information Security Officer who is a peer of mine, who also reports to the global CIO. The CDO and the CSO are effective partners and are two sides of the coin and trying to advance a total risk mitigation strategy, whether it is from a cyber risk standpoint, which is the focus of the Chief Information Security Officer and whether it is the general data consumption risk. And that is the focus from a Chief Data Officer in the capacities that I have. And together, those are two sides of a coin that the CIO needs to be accountable for. So I think that's how we have orchestrated it, because I think it is important in these worlds where you want to be able to drive data-driven innovation but you want to be able to do that in a way that doesn't open the company to unwanted risk exposures as well. And that is always a delicate balancing act, because if you index too much on risk and then high levels of security and control, then you could lose productivity. But if you index too much on productivity, collaboration and open access and data, it opens up the company for risks. So it is a delicate balance within the two. >> Increasingly, we're seeing that reporting structure evolve and coalesce, I think it makes a lot of sense. I felt like at some point you had too many seats at the executive leadership table, too many kind of competing agendas. And now your structure, the CIO is obviously a very important position. I'm sure has a seat at the leadership table, but also has the responsibility for managing that sort of data as an asset versus a liability which my view, has always been sort of the role of the Head of Information. I want to ask you, I want to hit the Escape key a little bit and ask you about data as a resource. You hear a lot of people talk about data is the new oil. We often say data is more valuable than oil because you can use it, it doesn't follow the laws of scarcity. You could use data in infinite number of places. You can only put oil in your car or your house. How do you think about data as a resource today and going forward? >> Yeah, I think the data as the new oil paradigm in my opinion, was an unhealthy, and it prompts different types of conversations around that. I think for certain companies, data is indeed an asset. If you're a company that is focused on information products and data products and that is core of your business, then of course there's monetization of data and then data as an asset, just like any other assets on the company's balance sheet. But for many enterprises to further their mission, I think considering data as a resource, I think is a better focus. So as a vital resource for the company, you need to make sure that there is an appropriate caring and feeding for it, there is an appropriate management of the resource and an appropriate evolution of the resource. So that's how I would like to consider it, it is a personal end of one perspective, that data as a resource that can power the mission of the company, the new products and services, I think that's a good, healthy way to look at it. At the center of it though, a lot of strategies, whether people talk about a digital strategy, whether the people talk about data strategy, what is important is a company to have a pool north star around what is the core mission of the company and what is the core strategy of the company. For Bristol-Myers Squibb, we are about transforming patients' lives through science. And we think about digital and data as key value levers and drivers of that strategy. So digital for the sake of digital or data strategy for the sake of data strategy is meaningless in my opinion. We are focused on making sure that how do we make sure that data and digital is an accelerant and has a value lever for the company's mission and company strategy. So that's why thinking about data as a resource, as a key resource for our scientific researchers or a key resource for our manufacturing team or a key resource for our sales and marketing, allows us to think about the actions and the strategies and tactics we need to deploy to make that effective. >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, you're constantly using that North star as your guideline and how data contributes to that mission. Krishna Cheriath, thanks so much for coming on the Cube and supporting the MIT Chief Data Officer community, it was a really pleasure having you. >> Thank you so much for Dave, hopefully you and the audience is safe and healthy during these times. >> Thank you for that and thank you for watching everybody. This is Vellante for the Cube's coverage of the MIT CDOIQ Conference 2020 gone virtual. Keep it right there, we'll right back right after this short break. (lively upbeat music)

(techno music) >> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody, we're here with theCUBE at the MIT Chief Data Officer Information Quality Conference. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Paul Gillin. Susan Wilson is here, she's the vice president of data governance and she's the leader at Informatica. Blake Anders is the corporate vice president of data governance at New York Life. Folks, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, Susan, interesting title; VP, data governance leader, Informatica. So, what are you leading at Informatica? >> We're helping our customers realize their business outcomes and objectives. Prior to joining Informatica about 7 years ago, I was actually a customer myself, and so often times I'm working with our customers to understand where they are, where they going, and how to best help them; because we recognize data governance is more than just a tool, it's a capability that represents people, the processes, the culture, as well as the technology. >> Yeah so you've walked the walk, and you can empathize with what your customers are going through. And Blake, your role, as the corporate VP, but more specifically the data governance lead. >> Right, so I lead the data governance capabilities and execution group at New York Life. We're focused on providing skills and tools that enable government's activities across the enterprise at the company. >> How long has that function been in place? >> We've been in place for about two and half years now. >> So, I don't know if you guys heard Mark Ramsey this morning, the key-note, but basically he said, okay, we started with enterprise data warehouse, we went to master data management, then we kind of did this top-down enterprise data model; that all failed. So we said, all right, let's pump the governance. Here you go guys, you fix our corporate data problem. Now, right tool for the right job but, and so, we were sort of joking, did data governance fail? No, you always have to have data governance. It's like brushing your teeth. But so, like I said, I don't know if you heard that, but what are your thoughts on that sort of evolution that he described? As sort of, failures of things like EDW to live up to expectations and then, okay guys over to you. Is that a common theme? >> It is a common theme, and what we're finding with many of our customers is that they had tried many of the, if you will, the methodologies around data governance, right? Around policies and structures. And we describe this as the Data 1.0 journey, which was more application-centric reporting to Data 2.0 to data warehousing. And a lot of the failed attempts, if you will, at centralizing, if you will, all of your data, to now Data 3.0, where we look at the explosion of data, the volumes of data, the number of data consumers, the expectations of the chief data officer to solve business outcomes; crushing under the scale of, I can't fit all of this into a centralized data at repository, I need something that will help me scale and to become more agile. And so, that message does resonate with us, but we're not saying data warehouses don't exist. They absolutely do for trusted data sources, but the ability to be agile and to address many of your organizations needs and to be able to service multiple consumers is top-of-mind for many of our customers. >> And the mind set from 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0 has changed. From, you know, data as a liability, to now data as this massive asset. It's sort of-- >> Value, yeah. >> Yeah, and the pendulum is swung. It's almost like a see-saw. Where, and I'm not sure it's ever going to flip back, but it is to a certain extent; people are starting to realize, wow, we have to be careful about what we do with our data. But still, it's go, go, go. But, what's the experience at New York Life? I mean, you know. A company that's been around for a long time, conservative, wants to make sure risk averse, obviously. >> Right. >> But at the same time, you want to keep moving as the market moves. >> Right, and we look at data governance as really an enabler and a value-add activity. We're not a governance practice for the sake of governance. We're not there to create a lot of policies and restrictions. We're there to add value and to enable innovation in our business and really drive that execution, that efficiency. >> So how do you do that? Square that circle for me, because a lot of people think, when people think security and governance and compliance they think, oh, that stifles innovation. How do you make governance an engine of innovation? >> You provide transparency around your data. So, it's transparency around, what does the data mean? What data assets do we have? Where can I find that? Where are my most trusted sources of data? What does the quality of that data look like? So all those things together really enable your data consumers to take that information and create new value for the company. So it's really about enabling your value creators throughout the organization. >> So data is an ingredient. I can tell you where it is, I can give you some kind of rating as to the quality of that data and it's usefulness. And then you can take it and do what you need to do with it in your specific line of business. >> That's right. >> Now you said you've been at this two and half years, so what stages have you gone through since you first began the data governance initiative. >> Sure, so our first year, year and half was really focused on building the foundations, establishing the playbook for data governance and building our processes and understanding how data governance needed to be implemented to fit New York Life in the culture of the company. The last twelve months or so has really been focused on operationalizing governance. So we've got the foundations in place, now it's about implementing tools to further augment those capabilities and help assist our data stewards and give them a better skill set and a better tool set to do their jobs. >> Are you, sort of, crowdsourcing the process? I mean, you have a defined set of people who are responsible for governance, or is everyone taking a role? >> So, it is a two-pronged approach, we do have dedicated data stewards. There's approximately 15 across various lines of business throughout the company. But, we are building towards a data democratization aspect. So, we want people to be self-sufficient in finding the data that they need and understanding the data. And then, when they have questions, relying on our stewards as a network of subject matter experts who also have some authorizations to make changes and adapt the data as needed. >> Susan, one of the challenges that we see is that the chief data officers often times are not involved in some of these skunkworks AI projects. They're sort of either hidden, maybe not even hidden, but they're in the line of business, they're moving. You know, there's a mentality of move fast and break things. The challenge with AI is, if you start operationalizing AI and you're breaking things without data quality, without data governance, you can really affect lives. We've seen it. In one of these unintended consequences. I mean, Facebook is the obvious example and there are many, many others. But, are you seeing that? How are you seeing organizations dealing with that problem? >> As Blake was mentioning often times what it is about, you've got to start with transparency, and you got to start with collaborating across your lines of businesses, including the data scientists, and including in terms of what they are doing. And actually provide that level of transparency, provide a level of collaboration. And a lot of that is through the use of our technology enablers to basically go out and find where the data is and what people are using and to be able to provide a mechanism for them to collaborate in terms of, hey, how do I get access to that? I didn't realize you were the SME for that particular component. And then also, did you realize that there is a policy associated to the data that you're managing and it can't be shared externally or with certain consumer data sets. So, the objective really is around how to create a platform to ensure that any one in your organization, whether I'm in the line of business, that I don't have a technical background, or someone who does have a technical background, they can come and access and understand that information and connect with their peers. >> So you're helping them to discover the data. What do you do at that stage? >> What we do at that stage is, creating insights for anyone in the organization to understand it from an impact analysis perspective. So, for example, if I'm going to make changes, to as well as discovery. Where exactly is my information? And so we have-- >> Right. How do you help your customers discover that data? >> Through machine learning and artificial intelligence capabilities of our, specifically, our data catalog, that allows us to do that. So we use such things like similarity based matching which help us to identify. It doesn't have to be named, in miscellaneous text one, it could be named in that particular column name. But, in our ability to scan and discover we can identify in that column what is potentially social security number. It might have resided over years of having this data, but you may not realize that it's still stored there. Our ability to identify that and report that out to the data stewards as well as the data analysts, as well as to the privacy individuals is critical. So, with that being said, then they can actually identify the appropriate policies that need to be adhered to, alongside with it in terms of quality, in terms of, is there something that we need to archive. So that's where we're helping our customers in that aspect. >> So you can infer from the data, the meta data, and then, with a fair degree of accuracy, categorize it and automate that. >> Exactly. We've got a customer that actually ran this and they said that, you know, we took three people, three months to actually physically tag where all this information existed across something like 7,000 critical data elements. And, basically, after the set up and the scanning procedures, within seconds we were able to get within 90% precision. Because, again, we've dealt a lot with meta data. It's core to our artificial intelligence and machine learning. And it's core to how we built out our platforms to share that meta data, to do something with that meta data. It's not just about sharing the glossary and the definition information. We also want to automate and reduce the manual burden. Because we recognize with that scale, manual documentation, manual cataloging and tagging just, >> It doesn't work. >> It doesn't work. It doesn't scale. >> Humans are bad at it. >> They're horrible at it. >> So I presume you have a chief data officer at New York Life, is that correct? >> We have a chief data and analytics officer, yes. >> Okay, and you work within that group? >> Yes, that is correct. >> Do you report it to that? >> Yes, so-- >> And that individual, yeah, describe the organization. >> So that sits in our lines of business. Originally, our data governance office sat in technology. And then, our early 2018 we actually re-orged into the business under the chief data and analytics officer when that role was formed. So we sit under that group along with a data solutions and governance team that includes several of our data stewards and also some others, some data engineer-type roles. And then, our center for data science and analytics as well that contains a lot of our data science teams in that type of work. >> So in thinking about some of these, I was describing to Susan, as these skunkworks projects, is the data team, the chief data officer's team involved in those projects or is it sort of a, go run water through the pipes, get an MVP and then you guys come in. How does that all work? >> We're working to try to centralize that function as much as we can, because we do believe there's value in the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing in those types of things. So we're trying to build those communications channels and build that network of data consumers across the organization. >> It's hard right? >> It is. >> Because the line of business wants to move fast, and you're saying, hey, we can help. And they think you're going to slow them down, but in fact, you got to make the case and show the success because you're actually not going to slow them down to terms of the ultimate outcome. I think that's the case that you're trying to make, right? >> And that's one of the things that we try to really focus on and I think that's one of the advantages to us being embedded in the business under the CDAO role, is that we can then say our objectives are your objectives. We are here to add value and to align with what you're working on. We're not trying to slow you down or hinder you, we're really trying to bring more to the table and augment what you're already trying to achieve. >> Sometimes getting that organization right means everything, as we've seen. >> Absolutely. >> That's right. >> How are you applying governance discipline to unstructured data? >> That's actually something that's a little bit further down our road map, but one of the things that we have started doing is looking at our taxonomy's for structured data and aligning those with the taxonomy's that we're using to classify unstructured data. So, that's something we're in the early stages with, so that when we get to that process of looking at more of our unstructured content, we can, we already have a good feel for there's alignment between the way that we think about and organize those concepts. >> Have you identified automation tools that can help to bring structure to that unstructured data? >> Yes, we have. And there are several tools out there that we're continuing to investigate and look at. But, that's one of the key things that we're trying to achieve through this process is bringing structure to unstructured content. >> So, the conference. First year at the conference. >> Yes. >> Kind of key take aways, things that interesting to you, learnings? >> Oh, yes, well the number of CDO's that are here and what's top of mind for them. I mean, it ranges from, how do I stand up my operating model? We just had a session just about 30 minutes ago. A lot of questions around, how do I set up my organization structure? How do I stand up my operating model so that I could be flexible? To, right, the data scientists, to the folks that are more traditional in structured and trusted data. So, still these things are top-of-mind and because they're recognizing the market is also changing too. And the growing amount of expectations, not only solving business outcomes, but also regulatory compliance, privacy is also top-of-mind for a lot of customers. In terms of, how would I get started? And what's the appropriate structure and mechanism for doing so? So we're getting a lot of those types of questions as well. So, the good thing is many of us have had years of experience in this phase and the convergence of us being able to support our customers, not only in our principles around how we implement the framework, but also the technology is really coming together very nicely. >> Anything you'd add, Blake? >> I think it's really impressive to see the level of engagement with thought leaders and decision makers in the data space. You know, as Susan mentioned, we just got out of our session and really, by the end of it, it turned into more of an open discussion. There was just this kind of back and forth between the participants. And so it's really engaging to see that level of passion from such a distinguished group of individuals who are all kind of here to share thoughts and ideas. >> Well anytime you come to a conference, it's sort of any open forum like this, you learn a lot. When you're at MIT, it's like super-charged. With the big brains. >> Exactly, you feel it when you come on the campus. >> You feel smarter when you walk out of here. >> Exactly, I know. >> Well, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. >> Thank you for having us. We appreciate it, thank you. >> You're welcome. All right, keep it right there everybody. Paul and I will be back with our next guest. You're watching theCUBE from MIT in Cambridge. We'll be right back. (techno music)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. (futuristic music) >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events and we extract the signal from the noise. This is day two, we're sort of wrapping up the Chief Data Officer event. It's MIT CDOIQ, it started as an information quality event and with the ascendancy of big data the CDO emerged and really took center stage here. And it's interesting to know that it's kind of come full circle back to information quality. People are realizing all this data we have, you know the old saying, garbage in, garbage out. So the information quality worlds and this chief data officer world have really come colliding together. Robert Abate is here, he's the Vice President and CDO of Global IDS and also the co-chair of next year's, the 14th annual MIT CDOIQ. Robert, thanks for coming on. >> Oh, well thank you. >> Now you're a CDO by background, give us a little history of your career. >> Sure, sure. Well I started out with an Electrical Engineering degree and went into applications development. By 2000, I was leading the Ralph Lauren's IT, and I realized when Ralph Lauren hired me, he was getting ready to go public. And his problem was he had hired eight different accounting firms to do eight different divisions. And each of those eight divisions were reporting a number, but the big number didn't add up, so he couldn't go public. So he searched the industry to find somebody who could figure out the problem. Now I was, at the time, working in applications and had built this system called Service Oriented Architectures, a way of integrating applications. And I said, "Well I don't know if I could solve the problem, "but I'll give it a shot." And what I did was, just by taking each silo as it's own problem, which was what EID Accounting Firm had done, I was able to figure out that one of Ralph Lauren's policies was if you buy a garment, you can return it anytime, anywhere, forever, however long you own it. And he didn't think about that, but what that meant is somebody could go to a Bloomingdale's, buy a garment and then go to his outlet store and return it. Well, the cross channels were different systems. So the outlet stores were his own business, retail was a different business, there was a completely different, each one had their own AS/400, their own data. So what I quickly learned was, the problem wasn't the systems, the problem was the data. And it took me about two months to figure it out and he offered me a job, he said well, I was a consultant at the time, he says, "I'm offering you a job, you're going to run my IT." >> Great user experience but hard to count. >> (laughs) Hard to count. So that's when I, probably 1999 was when that happened. I went into data and started researching-- >> Sorry, so how long did it take you to figure that out? You said a couple of months? >> A couple of months, I think it was about two months. >> 'Cause jeez, it took Oracle what, 10 years to build Fusion with SOA? That's pretty good. (laughs) >> This was a little bit of luck. When we started integrating the applications we learned that the messages that we were sending back and forth didn't match, and we said, "Well that's impossible, it can't not match." But what didn't match was it was coming from one channel and being returned in another channel, and the returns showed here didn't balance with the returns on this side. So it was a data problem. >> So a forensics showdown. So what did you do after? >> After that I went into ICICI Bank which was a large bank in India who was trying to integrate their systems, and again, this was a data problem. But they heard me giving a talk at a conference on how SOA had solved the data challenge, and they said, "We're a bank with a wholesale, a retail, "and other divisions, "and we can't integrate the systems, can you?" I said, "Well yeah, I'd build a website "and make them web services and now what'll happen is "each of those'll kind of communicate." And I was at ICICI Bank for about six months in Mumbai, and finished that which was a success, came back and started consulting because now a lot of companies were really interested in this concept of Service Oriented Architectures. Back then when we first published on it, myself, Peter Aiken, and a gentleman named Joseph Burke published on it in 1996. The publisher didn't accept the book, it was a really interesting thing. We wrote the book called, "Services Based Architectures: A Way to Integrate Systems." And the way Wiley & Sons, or most publishers work is, they'll have three industry experts read your book and if they don't think what you're saying has any value, they, forget about it. So one guy said this is brilliant, one guy says, "These guys don't know what they're talking about," and the third guy says, "I don't even think what they're talking about is feasible." So they decided not to publish. Four years later it came back and said, "We want to publish the book," and Peter said, "You know what, they lost their chance." We were ahead of them by four years, they didn't understand the technology. So that was kind of cool. So from there I went into consulting, eventually took a position as the Head of Enterprise and Director of Enterprise Information Architecture with Walmart. And Walmart, as you know, is a huge entity, almost the size of the federal government. So to build an architecture that integrates Walmart would've been a challenge, a behemoth challenge, and I took it on with a phenomenal team. >> And when was this, like what timeframe? >> This was 2010, and by the end of 2010 we had presented an architecture to the CIO and the rest of the organization, and they came back to me about a week later and said, "Look, everybody agrees what you did was brilliant, "but nobody knows how to implement it. "So we're taking you away, "you're no longer Director of Information Architecture, "you're now Director of Enterprise Information Management. "Build it. "Prove that what you say you could do, you could do." So we built something called the Data CAFE, and CAFE was an acronym, it stood for: Collaborative Analytics Facility for the Enterprise. What we did was we took data from one of the divisions, because you didn't want to take on the whole beast, boil the ocean. We picked Sam's Club and we worked with their CFO, and because we had information about customers we were able to build a room with seven 80 inch monitors that surrounded anyone in the room. And in the center was the Cisco telecommunications so you could be a part of a meeting. >> The TelePresence. >> TelePresence. And we built one room in one facility, and one room in another facility, and we labeled the monitors, one red, one blue, one green, and we said, "There's got to be a way where we can build "data science so it's interactive, so somebody, "an executive could walk into the room, "touch the screen, and drill into features. "And in another room "the features would be changing simultaneously." And that's what we built. The room was brought up on Black Friday of 2013, and we were able to see the trends of sales on the East Coast that we quickly, the executives in the room, and these are the CEO of Walmart and the heads of Sam's Club and the like, they were able to change the distribution in the Mountain Time Zone and west time zones because of the sales on the East Coast gave them the idea, well these things are going to sell, and these things aren't. And they saw a tremendous increase in productivity. We received the 2014, my team received the 2014 Walmart Innovation Project of the Year. >> And that's no slouch. Walmart has always been heavily data-oriented. I don't know if it's urban legend or not, but the famous story in the '80s of the beer and the diapers, right? Walmart would position beer next to diapers, why would they do that? Well the father goes in to buy the diapers for the baby, picks up a six pack while he's on the way, so they just move those proximate to each other. (laughs) >> In terms of data, Walmart really learned that there's an advantage to understanding how to place items in places that, a path that you might take in a store, and knowing that path, they actually have a term for it, I believe it's called, I'm sorry, I forgot the name but it's-- >> Selling more stuff. (laughs) >> Yeah, it's selling more stuff. It's the way you position items on a shelf. And Walmart had the brilliance, or at least I thought it was brilliant, that they would make their vendors the data champion. So the vendor, let's say Procter & Gamble's a vendor, and they sell this one product the most. They would then be the champion for that aisle. Oh, it's called planogramming. So the planogramming, the way the shelves were organized, would be set up by Procter & Gamble for that entire area, working with all their other vendors. And so Walmart would give the data to them and say, "You do it." And what I was purporting was, well, we shouldn't just be giving the data away, we should be using that data. And that was the advent of that. From there I moved to Kimberly-Clark, I became Global Director of Enterprise Data Management and Analytics. Their challenge was they had different teams, there were four different instances of SAP around the globe. One for Latin America, one for North America called the Enterprise Edition, one for EMEA, Europe, Middle East, and Africa, and one for Asia-Pacific. Well when you have four different instances of SAP, that means your master data doesn't exist because the same thing that happens in this facility is different here. And every company faces this challenge. If they implement more than one of a system the specialty fields get used by different companies in different ways. >> The gold standard, the gold version. >> The golden version. So I built a team by bringing together all the different international teams, and created one team that was able to integrate best practices and standards around data governance, data quality. Built BI teams for each of the regions, and then a data science and advanced analytics team. >> Wow, so okay, so that makes you uniquely qualified to coach here at the conference. >> Oh, I don't know about that. (laughs) There are some real, there are some geniuses here. >> No but, I say that because these are your peeps. >> Yes, they are, they are. >> And so, you're a practitioner, this conference is all about practitioners talking to practitioners, it's content-heavy, There's not a lot of fluff. Lunches aren't sponsored, there's no lanyard sponsor and it's not like, you know, there's very subtle sponsor desks, you have to have sponsors 'cause otherwise the conference's not enabled, and you've got costs associated with it. But it's a very intimate event and I think you guys want to keep it that way. >> And I really believe you're dead-on. When you go to most industry conferences, the industry conferences, the sponsors, you know, change the format or are heavily into the format. Here you have industry thought leaders from all over the globe. CDOs of major Fortune 500 companies who are working with their peers and exchanging ideas. I've had conversations with a number of CDOs and the thought leadership at this conference, I've never seen this type of thought leadership in any conference. >> Yeah, I mean the percentage of presentations by practitioners, even when there's a vendor name, they have a practitioner, you know, internal practitioner presenting so it's 99.9% which is why people attend. We're moving venues next year, I understand. Just did a little tour of the new venue, so, going to be able to accommodate more attendees, so that's great. >> Yeah it is. >> So what are your objectives in thinking ahead a year from now? >> Well, you know, I'm taking over from my current peer, Dr. Arka Mukherjee, who just did a phenomenal job of finding speakers. People who are in the industry, who are presenting challenges, and allowing others to interact. So I hope could do a similar thing which is, find with my peers people who have real world challenges, bring them to the forum so they can be debated. On top of that, there are some amazing, you know, technology change is just so fast. One of the areas like big data I remember only five years ago the chart of big data vendors maybe had 50 people on it, now you would need the table to put all the vendors. >> Who's not a data vendor, you know? >> Who's not a data vendor? (laughs) So I would think the best thing we could do is, is find, just get all the CDOs and CDO-types into a room, and let us debate and talk about these points and issues. I've seen just some tremendous interactions, great questions, people giving advice to others. I've learned a lot here. >> And how about long term, where do you see this going? How many CDOs are there in the world, do you know? Is that a number that's known? >> That's a really interesting point because, you know, only five years ago there weren't that many CDOs to be called. And then Gartner four years ago or so put out an article saying, "Every company really should have a CDO." Not just for the purpose of advancing your data, and to Doug Laney's point that data is being monetized, there's a need to have someone responsible for information 'cause we're in the Information Age. And a CIO really is focused on infrastructure, making sure I've got my PCs, making sure I've got a LAN, I've got websites. The focus on data has really, because of the Information Age, has turned data into an asset. So organizations realize, if you utilize that asset, let me reverse this, if you don't use data as an asset, you will be out of business. I heard a quote, I don't know if it's true, "Only 10 years ago, 250 of the Fortune 10 no longer exists." >> Yeah, something like that, the turnover's amazing. >> Many of those companies were companies that decided not to make the change to be data-enabled, to make data decision processing. Companies still use data warehouses, they're always going to use them, and a warehouse is a rear-view mirror, it tells you what happened last week, last month, last year. But today's businesses work forward-looking. And just like driving a car, it'd be really hard to drive your car through a rear-view mirror. So what companies are doing today are saying, "Okay, let's start looking at this as forward-looking, "a prescriptive and predictive analytics, "rather than just what happened in the past." I'll give you an example. In a major company that is a supplier of consumer products, they were leading in the industry and their sales started to drop, and they didn't know why. Well, with a data science team, we were able to determine by pulling in data from the CDC, now these are sources that only 20 years ago nobody ever used to bring in data in the enterprise, now 60% of your data is external. So we brought in data from the CDC, we brought in data on maternal births from the national government, we brought in data from the Census Bureau, we brought in data from sources of advertising and targeted marketing towards mothers. Pulled all that data together and said, "Why are diaper sales down?" Well they were targeting the large regions of the country and putting ads in TV stations in New York and California, big population centers. Birth rates in population centers have declined. Birth rates in certain other regions, like the south, and the Bible Belt, if I can call it that, have increased. So by changing the marketing, their product sales went up. >> Advertising to Texas. >> Well, you know, and that brings to one of the points, I heard a lecture today about ethics. We made it a point at Walmart that if you ran a query that reduced a result to less than five people, we wouldn't allow you to see the result. Because, think about it, I could say, "What is my neighbor buying? "What are you buying?" So there's an ethical component to this as well. But that, you know, data is not political. Data is not chauvinistic. It doesn't discriminate, it just gives you facts. It's the interpretation of that that is hard CDOs, because we have to say to someone, "Look, this is the fact, and your 25 years "of experience in the business, "granted, is tremendous and it's needed, "but the facts are saying this, "and that would mean that the business "would have to change its direction." And it's hard for people to do, so it requires that. >> So whether it's called the chief data officer, whatever the data czar rubric is, the head of analytics, there's obviously the data quality component there whatever that is, this is the conference for, as I called them, your peeps, for that role in the organization. People often ask, "Will that role be around?" I think it's clear, it's solidifying. Yes, you see the chief digital officer emerging and there's a lot of tailwinds there, but the information quality component, the data architecture component, it's here to stay. And this is the premiere conference, the premiere event, that I know of anyway. There are a couple of others, perhaps, but it's great to see all the success. When I first came here in 2013 there were probably about 130 folks here. Today, I think there were 500 people registered almost. Next year, I think 600 is kind of the target, and I think it's very reasonable with the new space. So congratulations on all the success, and thank you for stepping up to the co-chair role, I really appreciate it. >> Well, let me tell you I thank you guys. You provide a voice at these IT conferences that we really need, and that is the ability to get the message out. That people do think and care, the industry is not thoughtless and heartless. With all the data breaches and everything going on there's a lot of fear, fear, loathing, and anticipation. But having your voice, kind of like ESPN and a sports show, gives the technology community, which is getting larger and larger by the day, a voice and we need that so, thank you. >> Well thank you, Robert. We appreciate that, it was great to have you on. Appreciate the time. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll be right back with out next guest as we wrap up day two of MIT CDOIQ. You're watching theCUBE. (futuristic music)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. (dramatic music) >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts, everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, and we extract the signal from then noise. And, we're here at the MIT CDOIQ, the Chief Data Officer conference. I'm Dave Vellante with my cohost Paul Gillin. Day two of our wall to wall coverage. Aaron Kalb is here. He's the cofounder and chief data officer of Alation. Aaron, thanks for making the time to come on. >> Thanks so much Dave and Paul for having me. >> You're welcome. So, words matter, you know, and we've been talking about data, and big data, and the three Vs, and data is the new oil, and all this stuff. You gave a talk this week about, you know, "We're maybe not talking the right language "when it comes to data." What did you mean by all that? >> Absolutely, so I get a little bit frustrated by some of these cliques we hear at conference after conference, and the one I, sort of, took aim at in this talk is, data is the new oil. I think what people want to invoke with that is to say, in the same way that oil powered the industrial age, data's powering the information age. Just saying, data's really cool and trendy and important. That's true, but there are a lot of other associations and contexts that people have with data, and some of them don't really apply as, I'm sorry, with oil. And, some of them apply, as well, to data. >> So, is data more valuable than oil? >> Well, I think they're each valuable in different ways, but I think there's a couple issues with the metaphor. One is that data is scarce and dwindling, and part of value comes from the fact that it's so rare. Whereas, the experience with data is that it's so plentiful and abundant, we're almost drowning in it. And so, what I contend is, instead of talking about data as compared to oil, we should talk about data compared to water. And, the idea is, you know, water is very plentiful on the planet, but sometimes, you know, if you have saltwater or contaminated water, you can't drink it. Water is good for different purposes, depending on its form, and so it's all about getting the right data for the right purpose, like water. >> Well, we've certainly, at least in my opinion, fought wars, Paul, over oil. >> And, over water. >> And, certainly, conflicts over water. Do you think we'll be fighting wars over data? Or, are we already? >> No, we might be. One of my favorite talks from the sessions here was a keynote by the CDO for the Department of Defense, who was talking about, you know, the civic duty about transparency but was observing that, actually, more IP addresses from China and Russia are looking at our public datasets than from within the country. So, you know, it's definitely a resource that can be very powerful. >> So, what was the reaction to your premise from the audience. What kind of questions did you get? >> You know, people actually responded very favorably, including some folks from the oil and gas industry, which I was pleased to find. We have a lot of customers in energy, so that was cool. But, what it was nice being here at MIT and just really geeking out about language and linguistics and data with a bunch of CDOs and other people who are, kind of, data intellectuals. >> Right, so if data is not the new oil. >> And, water isn't really a good analogy either, because the supply of water is finite. >> That's true. >> So, what is data? >> Yeah. >> Space? >> Yeah, it's a good point. >> Matter? >> Maybe it is like the universe in that it's always expanding, right, somehow. Right, because any thing, any physic which is on the planet probably won't be growing at that exponential speed. >> So, give us the punchline. >> Well, so I contend that water, while imperfect, is, actually, a really good metaphor that helps for a lot of things. It has properties like the fact that if it's a data quality issue, it flows downstream like pollution in a river. It's the fact that it can come in different forms, useful for different purposes. You might have gray water, right, which is good enough for, you know, irrigation or industrial purposes, but not safe to drink. And so, you rely on metadata to get the data that's in the right form. And, you know, the talk is more fun because you've a lot of visual examples that make this clear. >> Yeah, of course, yeah. >> I actually had one person in the audience say that he used a similar analogy in his own company, so it's fun to trade notes. >> So, chief data officer is a relatively new title for you, is it not? In terms of your role at Alation. >> Yeah, that's right, and the most fun thing about my job is being able to interact with all of the other CDOs and CDAOs at a conference like this. And, it was cool to see. I believe this conference doubled since the last year. Is that right? >> No. >> No, it's up about a hundred, though. >> Right. >> Well. >> And, it's about double from three years ago. >> And, when we first started, in 2013, yeah. >> 130 people, yeah. >> Yeah, it was a very small and intimate event. >> Yeah, here we're outgrowing this building, it seems. >> Yeah, they're kicking us out. >> I think what's interesting is, you know, if we do a little bit of analysis, this is a small data, within our own company, you know, our biggest and most visionary customers typically bought Alation. The buyer champion either was a CDO or they weren't a CDO when they bought the software and have since been promoted to be a CDO. And so, seeing this trend of more and more CDOs cropping up is really exciting for us. And also, just hearing all of the people at the conference saying, two trends we're hearing. A move from, sort of, infrastructure and technology to driving business value, and a move from defense and governance to, sort of, playing offense and doing revenue generation with data. Both of those trends are really exciting for us. >> So, don't hate me for asking this question, because what a lot of companies will do is, they'll give somebody a CDO title, and it's, kind of, a little bit of gimmick, right, to go to market. And, they'll drag you into sales, because I'm sure they do, as a cofounder. But, as well, I know CDOs at tech companies that are actually trying to apply new techniques, figure out how data contributes to their business, how they can cut costs, raise revenue. Do you have an internal role, as well? >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Explain that. >> So, Alation, you know, we're about 250 people, so we're not at the same scale as many of the attendees here. But, we want to learn, you know, from the best, and always apply everything that we learn internally as well. So, obviously, analytics, data science is a huge role in our internal operations. >> And so, what kinds of initiatives are you driving internally? Is it, sort of, cost initiatives, efficiency, innovation? >> Yeah, I think it's all of the above, right. Every single division and both in the, sort of, operational efficiency and cost cutting side as well as figuring out the next big bet to make, can be informed by data. And, our goal was to empower a curious and rational world, and our every decision be based not on the highest paid person's opinion, but on the best evidence possible. And so, you know, the goal of my function is largely to enable that both centrally and within each business unit. >> I want to talk to you about data catalogs a bit because it's a topic close to my heart. I've talked to a lot of data catalog companies over the last couple years, and it seems like, for one thing, the market's very crowded right now. It seems to me. Would you agree there are a lot of options out there? >> Yeah, you know, it's been interesting because when we started it, we were basically the first company to make this technology and to, kind of, use this term, data catalog, in this way. And, it's been validating to see, you know, a lot of big players and other startups even, kind of, coming to that terminology. But, yeah, it has gotten more crowded, and I think our customers who, or our prospects, used to ask us, you know, "What is it that you do? "Explain this catalog metaphor to me," are now saying, "Yeah, catalogs, heard about that." >> It doesn't need to be defined anymore. >> "Which one should I pick? "Why you?" Yeah. >> What distinguished one product from another, you know? What are the major differentiation points? >> Yeah, I think one thing that's interesting is, you know, my talk was about how the metaphors we use shape the way we think. And, I think there's a sense in which, kind of, the history of each company shapes their philosophy and their approach, so we've always been a data catalog company. That's our one product. Some of the other catalog vendors come from ETL background, so they're a lot more focused on technical metadata and infrastructure. Some of the catalog products grew out of governance, and so it's, sort of, governance first, no sorry, defense first and then offense secondary. So, I think that's one of the things, I think, we encourage our prospects to look at, is, kind of, the soul of the company and how that affects their decisions. The other thing is, of course, technology. And, what we at Alation are really excited about, and it's been validating to hear Gartner and others and a lot of the people here, like the GSK keynote speaker yesterday, talking about the importance of comprehensiveness and on taking a behavioral approach, right. We have our Behavioral IO technology that really says, "Let's not look at all the bits and the bytes, "but how are people using the data to drive results?" As our core differentiator. >> Do your customers generally standardize on one data catalog, or might they have multiple catalogs for multiple purposes? >> Yeah, you know, we heard a term more last season, of catalog of catalogs, you know. And, people here can get arbitrarily, you know, meta, meta, meta data, where we like to go there. I think the customers we see most successful tend to have one catalog that serves this function of the single source of reference. Many of our customers will say, you know, that their catalog serves as, sort of, their internal Google for data. Or, the one stop shop where you could find everything. Even though they may have many different sources, Typically you don't want to have siloed catalogs. It makes it harder to find what you're looking for. >> Let's play a little word association with some metaphors. Data lake. (laughter) >> Data lake's another one that I sort of hate. If you think about it, people had data warehouses and didn't love them, but at least, when you put something into a warehouse, you can get it out, right. If you throw something into a lake, you know, there's really no hope you're ever going to find it. It's probably not going to be in great shape, and we're not surprised to find that many folks who invested heavily in data lakes are now having to invest in a layer over it, to make it comprehensible and searchable. >> So, yeah, the lake is where we hide the stolen cars. Data swamp. >> Yeah, I mean, I think if your point is it's worse than lake, it works. But, I think we can do better a lake, right. >> How about data ocean? (laughter) >> You know, out of respect for John Furrier, I'll say it's fantastic. But, to us we think, you know, it isn't really about the size. The more data you have, people think the more data the better. It's actually the more data the worse unless you have a mechanism for finding the little bit of data that is relevant and useful for your task and put it to use. >> And to, want to set up, enter the catalog. So, technically, how does the catalog solve that problem? >> Totally, so if we think about, maybe let's go to the warehouse, for example. But, it works just as well on a data lake in practice. >> Yeah, cool. >> Through the catalog is. It starts with the inventory, you know, what's on every single shelf. But, if you think about what Amazon has done, they have the inventory warehouse in the back, but what you see as a consumer is a simple search interface, where you type in the word of the product you're looking for. And then, you see ranked suggestions for different items, you know, toasters, lamps, whatever, books I want to buy. Same thing for data. I can type in, you know, if I'm at the DOD, you know, information about aircraft, or information about, you know, drug discovery if I'm at GSK. And, I should be able to therefore see all of the different data sets that I have. And, that's true in almost any catalog, that you can do some search over the curated data sets there. With Alation in particular, what I can see is, who's using it, how are they using it, what are they joining it with, what results do they find in that process. And, that can really accelerate the pace of discovery. >> Go ahead. >> I'm sorry, Dave. To what degree can you automate some of that detail, like who's using it and what it's being used for. I mean, doesn't that rely on people curating the catalog? Or, to what degree can you automate that? >> Yeah, so it's a great question. I think, sometimes, there's a sense with AI or ML that it's like the computer is making the decisions or making things up. Which is, obviously, very scary. Usually, the training data comes from humans. So, our goal is to learn from humans in two ways. There's learning from humans where humans explicitly teach you. Somebody goes and says, "This is goal standard data versus this is, "you know, low quality data." And, they do that manually. But, there's also learning implicitly from people. So, in the same way on amazon.com, if I buy one item and then buy another, I'm doing that for my own purposes, but Amazon can do collaborative filtering over all of these trends and say, "You might want to buy this item." We can do a similar thing where we parse the query logs, parse the usage logs and be eye tools, and can basically watch what people are doing for their own purposes. Not to, you know, extra work on top of their job to help us. We can learn from that and make everybody more effective. >> Aaron, is data classification a part of all this? Again, when we started in the industry, data classification was a manual exercise. It's always been a challenge. Certainly, people have applied math to it. You've seen support vector machines and probabilistic latent cement tech indexing being used to classify data. Have we solved that problem, as an industry? Can you automate the classification of data on creation or use at this point in time? >> Well, one thing that came up in a few talks about AI and ML here is, regardless of the algorithm you're using, whether it's, you know, IFH or SVM, or something really modern and exciting that keeps learning. >> Stuff that's been around forever or, it's like you say, some new stuff, right. >> Yeah, you know, actually, I think it was said best by Michael Collins at the DOD, that data is more important than the algorithm because even the best algorithm is useless without really good training data. Plus, the algorithm's, kind of, everyone's got them. So, really often, training data is the limiting reactant in getting really good classification. One thing we try to do at Alation is create an upward spiral where maybe some data is curated manually, and then we can use that as a seed to make some suggestions about how to label other data. And then, it's easier to just do a confirm or deny of a guess than to actually manually label everything. So, then you get more training, get it faster, and it kind of accelerates that way instead of being a big burden. >> So, that's really the advancement in the last five to what, five, six years. Where you're able to use machine intelligence to, sort of, solve that problem as opposed to brute forcing it with some algorithm. Is that fair? >> Yeah, I think that's right, and I think what gets me very excited is when you can have these interactive loops where the human helps the computer, which helps the human. You get, again, this upward spiral. Instead of saying, "We have to have all of this, "you know, manual step done "before we even do the first step," or trying to have an algorithm brute force it without any human intervention. >> It's kind of like notes key mode on write, except it actually works. I'm just kidding to all my ADP friends. All right, Aaron, hey. Thanks very much for coming on theCUBE, but give your last word on the event. I think, is this your first one or no? >> This is our first time here. >> Yeah, okay. So, what are your thoughts? >> I think we'll be back. It's just so exciting to get people who are thinking really big about data but are also practitioners who are solving real business problems. And, just the exchange of ideas and best practices has been really inspiring for me. >> Yeah, that's great. >> Yeah. >> Well, thank you for the support of the event, and thanks for coming on theCUBE. It was great to see you again. >> Thanks Dave, thanks Paul. >> All right, you're welcome. >> Thank you, sir. >> All right, keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching theCUBE from MIT CDOIQ. Be right back. (upbeat music)

(techno music) >> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to MIT CDOIQ. The CDO Information Quality Conference. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. This is our day two of our two day coverage. Jean Ross is here. She's the principle research scientist at MIT CISR, Jean good to see you again. >> Nice to be here! >> Welcome back. Okay, what do all these acronyms stand for, I forget. MIT CISR. >> CISR which we pronounce scissor, is the Center for Information Systems Research. It's a research center that's been at MIT since 1974, studying how big companies use technology effectively. >> So and, what's your role as a research scientist? >> As a research scientist, I work with both researchers and with company leaders to understand what's going on out there, and try to present some simple succinct ideas about how companies can generate greater value from information technology. >> Well, I guess not much has changed in information technology since 1974. (laughing) So let's fast forward to the big, hot trend, digital transformation, digital business. What's the difference between a business and a digital business? >> Right now, you're hoping there's no difference for you and your business. >> (chuckling) Yeah, for sure. >> The main thing about a digital business is it's being inspired by technology. So in the past, we would establish a strategy, and then we would check out technology and say, okay, how can technology make us more effective with that strategy? Today, and this has been driven a lot by start-ups, we have to stop and say, well wait a minute, what is technology making possible? Because if we're not thinking about it, there sure are a lot of students at MIT who are, and we're going to miss the boat. We're going to get Ubered if you will, somebody's going to think of a value proposition that we should be offering and aren't, and we'll be left in the dust. So, our digital businesses are those that are recognizing the opportunities that digital technologies make possible. >> Now, and what about data? In terms of the role of digital business, it seems like that's an underpinning of a digital business. Is it not? >> Yeah, the single biggest capability that digital technologies provide, is ubiquitous data that's readily accessible anytime. So when we think about being inspired by technology, we could reframe that as inspired by the availability of ubiquitous data that's readily accessible. >> Your premise about the difference between digitization and digital business is interesting. It's more than just a sematic debate. Do companies now, when companies talk about digital transformation these days, in fact, are most of them of thinking of digitization rather than really transformative business change? >> Yeah, this is so interesting to me. In 2006, we wrote a book that said, you need to become more agile, and you need to rely on information technology to get you there. And these are basic things like SAP and salesforce.com and things like that. Just making sure that your core processes are disciplined and reliable and predictable. We said this in 2006. What we didn't know is that we were explaining digitization, which is very effective use of technology in your underlying process. Today, when somebody says to me, we're going digital, I'm thinking about the new value propositions, the implications of the data, right? And they're often actually saying they're finally doing what we thought they should do in 2006. The problem is, in 2006, we said get going on this, it's a long journey. This could take you six, 10 years to accomplish. And then we gave examples of companies that took six to 10 years. LEGO, and USAA and really great companies. And now, companies are going, "Ah, you know, we really ought to do that". They don't have six to 10 years. They get this done now, or they're in trouble, and it's still a really big deal. >> So how realistic is it? I mean, you've got big established companies that have got all these information silos, as we've been hearing for the last two days, just pulling their information together, knowing what they've got is a huge challenge for them. Meanwhile, you're competing with born on the web, digitally native start-ups that don't have any of that legacy, is it really feasible for these companies to reinvent themselves in the way you're talking about? Or should they just be buying the companies that have already done it? >> Well good luck with buying, because what happens is that when a company starts up, they can do anything, but they can't do it to scale. So most of these start-ups are going to have to sell themselves because they don't know anything about scale. And the problem is, the companies that want to buy them up know about the scale of big global companies but they don't know how to do this seamlessly because they didn't do the basic digitization. They relied on basically, a lot of heroes in their company to pull of the scale. So now they have to rely more on technology than they did in the past, but they still have a leg up if you will, on the start-up that doesn't want to worry about the discipline of scaling up a good idea. They'd rather just go off and have another good idea, right? They're perpetual entrepreneurs if you will. So if we look at the start-ups, they're not really your concern. Your concern is the very well run company, that's been around, knows how to be inspired by technology and now says, "Oh I see what you're capable of doing, "or should be capable of doing. "I think I'll move into your space". So this, the Amazon's, and the USAA's and the LEGO's who say "We're good at what we do, "and we could be doing more". We're watching Schneider Electric, Phillips's, Ferovial. These are big ole companies who get digital, and they are going to start moving into a lot of people's territory. >> So let's take the example of those incumbents that you've used as examples of companies that are leaning into digital, and presumably doing a good job of it, they've got a lot of legacy debt, as you know people call it technical debt. The question I have is how they're using machine intelligence. So if you think about Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, they own horizontal technologies around machine intelligence. The incumbents that you mentioned, do not. Now do they close the gap? They're not going to build their own A.I. They're going to buy it, and then apply it. It's how they apply it that's going to be the difference. So do you agree with that premise, and where are they getting it, do they have the skill sets to do it, how are they closing that gap? >> They're definitely partnering. When you say they're not going to build any of it, that's actually not quite true. They're going to build a lot around the edges. They'll rely on partners like Microsoft and Google to provide some of the core, >> Yes, right. >> But they are bringing in their own experts to take it to the, basically to the customer level. How do I take, let me just take Schneider Electric for an example. They have gone from being an electrical equipment manufacturer, to a purveyor of energy management solutions. It's quite a different value proposition. To do that, they need a lot of intelligence. Some of it is data analytics of old, and some of it is just better representation on dashboards and things like that. But there is a layer of intelligence that is new, and it is absolutely essential to them by relying on partners and their own expertise in what they do for customers, and then co-creating a fair amount with customers, they can do things that other companies cannot. >> And they're developing a software presumably, a SAS revenue stream as part of that, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> How about the innovators dilemma though, the problem that these companies often have grown up, they're very big, they're very profitable, they see disruption coming, but they are unable to make the change, their shareholders won't let them make the change, they know what they have to do, but they're simply not able to do it, and then they become paralyzed. Is there a -- I mean, looking at some of the companies you just mentioned, how did they get over that mindset? >> This is real leadership from CEO's, who basically explain to their boards and to their investors, this is our future, we are... we're either going this direction or we're going down. And they sell it. It's brilliant salesmanship, and it's why when we go out to study great companies, we don't have that many to choose from. I mean, they are hard to find, right? So you are at such a competitive advantage right now. If you understand, if your own internal processes are cleaned up and you know how to rely on the E.R.P's and the C.R.M's, to get that done, and on the other hand, you're using the intelligence to provide value propositions, that new technologies and data make possible, that is an incredibly powerful combination, but you have to invest. You have to convince your boards and your investors that it's a good idea, you have to change your talent internally, and the biggest surprise is, you have to convince your customers that they want something from you that they never wanted before. So you got a lot of work to do to pull this off. >> Right now, in today's economy, the economy is sort of lifting all boats. But as we saw when the .com implosion happened in 2001, often these breakdown gives birth to great, new companies. Do you see that the next recession, which is inevitably coming, will be sort of the turning point for some of these companies that can't change? >> It's a really good question. I do expect that there are going to be companies that don't make it. And I think that they will fail at different rates based on their, not just the economy, but their industry, and what competitors do, and things like that. But I do think we're going to see some companies fail. We're going to see many other companies understand that they are too complex. They are simply too complex. They cannot do things end to end and seamlessly and present a great customer experience, because they're doing everything. So we're going to see some pretty dramatic changes, we're going to see failure, it's a fair assumption that when we see the economy crash, it's also going to contribute, but that's, it's not the whole story. >> But when the .com blew up, you had the internet guys that actually had a business model to make money, and the guys that didn't, the guys that didn't went away, and then you also had the incumbents that embrace the internet, so when we came out of that .com downturn, you had the survivors, who was Google and eBay, and obviously Amazon, and then you had incumbent companies who had online retailing, and e-tailing and e-commerce etc, who thrived. I would suspect you're going to see something similar, but I wonder what you guys think. The street today is rewarding growth. And we got another near record high today after the rate cut yesterday. And so, but companies that aren't making money are getting rewarded, 'cause they're growing. Well when the recession comes, those guys are going to get crushed. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And you're going to have these other companies emerge, and you'll see the winners, are going to be those ones who have truly digitized, not just talking the talk, or transformed really, to use your definition. That's what I would expect. I don't know, what do you think about that? >> I totally agree. And, I mean, we look at industries like retail, and they have been fundamentally transformed. There's still lots of opportunities for innovation, and we're going to see some winners that have kind of struggled early but not given up, and they're kind of finding their footing. But we're losing some. We're losing a lot, right? I think the surprise is that we thought digital was going to replace what we did. We'd stop going to stores, we'd stop reading books, we wouldn't have newspapers anymore. And it hasn't done that. Its only added, it hasn't taken anything away. >> It could-- >> I don't think the newspaper industry has been unscathed by digital. >> No, nor has retail. >> Nor has retail, right. >> No, no no, not unscathed, but here's the big challenge. Is if I could substitute, If I could move from newspaper to online, I'm fine. You don't get to do that. You add online to what you've got, right? And I think this right now is the big challenge. Is that nothing's gone away, at least yet. So we have to sustain the business we are, so that it can feed the business we want to be. And we have to make that transition into new capabilities. I would argue that established companies need to become very binary, that there are people that do nothing but sustain and make better and better and better, who they are. While others, are creating the new reality. You see this in auto companies by the way. They're creating not just the autonomous automobiles, but the mobility services, the whole new value propositions, that will become a bigger and bigger part of their revenue stream, but right now are tiny. >> So, here's the scary thing to me. And again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. And I've been an outspoken critic of Liz Warren's attack on big tech. >> Absolutely. >> I just think if they're breaking the law, and they're really acting like monopolies, the D.O.J and F.T.C should do something, but to me, you don't just break up big tech because they're good capitalists. Having said that, one of the things that scares me is, when you see Apple getting into payment systems, Amazon getting into grocery and logistics. Digital allows you to do something that's never happened before which is, you can traverse industries. >> Yep. >> Yeah, absolutely >> You used to have this stack of industries, and if you were in that industry, you're stuck in healthcare, you're stuck in financial services or whatever it was. And today, digital allows you to traverse those. >> It absolutely does. And so in theory, Amazon and Apple and Facebook and Google, they can attack virtually any industry and they kind of are. >> Yeah they kind are. I would certainly not break up anything. I would really look hard though at acquisitions, because I think that's where some of this is coming from. They can stop the overwhelming growth, but I do think you're right. That you get these opportunities from digital that are just so much easier because they're basically sharing information and technology, not building buildings and equipment and all that kind of thing. But I think there all limits to all this. I do not fear these companies. I think there, we need some law, we need some regulations, they're fine. They are adding a lot of value and the great companies, I mean, you look at the Schneider's and the Phillips, yeah they fear what some of them can do, but they're looking forward to what they provide underneath. >> Doesn't Cloud change the equation here? I mean, when you think of something like Amazon getting into the payments business, or Google in the payments business, you know it used to be that the creating of global payments processing network, just going global was a huge barrier to entry. Now, you don't have nearly that same level of impediment right? I mean the cloud eliminates much of the traditional barrier. >> Yeah, but I'll tell you what limits it, is complexity. Every company we've studied gets a little over anxious and becomes too complex, and they cannot run themselves effectively anymore. It happens to everyone. I mean, remember when we were terrified about what Microsoft was going to become? But then it got competition because it's trying to do so many things, and somebody else is offering, Sales Force and others, something simpler. And this will happen to every company that gets overly ambitious. Something simpler will come along, and everybody will go "Oh thank goodness". Something simpler. >> Well with Microsoft, I would argue two things. One is the D.O.J put some handcuffs on them , and two, with Steve Ballmer, I wouldn't get his nose out of Windows, and then finally stuck on a (mumbles) (laughter) >> Well it's they had a platform shift. >> Well this is exactly it. They will make those kind of calls . >> Sure, and I think that talks to their legacy, that they won't end up like Digital Equipment Corp or Wang and D.G, who just ignored the future and held onto the past. But I think, a colleague of ours, David Moschella wrote a book, it's called "Seeing Digital". And his premise was we're moving from a world of remote cloud services, to one where you have to, to use your word, ubiquitous digital services that you can access upon which you can build your business and new business models. I mean, the simplest example is Waves, you mentioned Uber. They're using Cloud, they're using OAuth.in with Google, Facebook or LinkedIn and they've got a security layer, there's an A.I layer, there's all your BlockChain, mobile, cognitive, it's all these sets of services that are now ubiquitous on which you're building, so you're leveraging, he calls it the matrix, to the extent that these companies that you're studying, these incumbents can leverage that matrix, they should be fine. >> Yes. >> The part of the problem is, they say "No, we're going to invent everything ourselves, we're going to build it all ourselves". To use Andy Jassy's term, it's non-differentiated heavy lifting, slows them down, but there's no reason why they can't tap that matrix, >> Absolutely >> And take advantage of it. Where I do get scared is, the Facebooks, Apples, Googles, Amazons, they're matrix companies, their data is at their core, and they get this. It's not like they're putting data around the core, data is the core. So your thoughts on that? I mean, it looks like your slide about disruption, it's coming. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> No industry is safe. >> Yeah, well I'll go back to the complexity argument. We studied complexity at length, and complexity is a killer. And as we get too ambitious, and we're constantly looking for growth, we start doing things that create more and more tensions in our various lines of business, causes to create silos, that then we have to coordinate. I just think every single company that, no cloud is going to save us from this. It, complexity will kill us. And we have to keep reminding ourselves to limit that complexity, and we've just not seen the example of the company that got that right. Sooner or later, they just kind of chop them, you know, create problems for themselves. >> Well isn't that inherent though in growth? >> Absolutely! >> It's just like, big companies slow down. >> That's right. >> They can't make decisions as quickly. >> That's right. >> I haven't seen a big company yet that moves nimbly. >> Exactly, and that's the complexity thing-- >> Well wait a minute, what about AWS? They're a 40 billion dollar company. >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah >> They're like the agile gorilla. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I mean, I think they're breaking the rule, and my argument would be, because they have data at their core, and they've got that, its a bromide, but that common data model, that they can apply now to virtually any business. You know, we're been expecting, a lot of people have been expecting that growth to attenuate. I mean it hasn't yet, we'll see. But they're like a 40 billion dollar firm-- >> No that's a good example yeah. >> So we'll see. And Microsoft, is the other one. Microsoft is demonstrating double digit growth. For such a large company, it's astounding. I wonder, if the law of large numbers is being challenged, so. >> Yeah, well it's interesting. I do think that what now constitutes "so big" that you're really going to struggle with the complexity. I think that has definitely been elevated a lot. But I still think there will be a point at which human beings can't handle-- >> They're getting away. >> Whatever level of complexity we reach, yeah. >> Well sure, right because even though this great new, it's your point. Cloud technology, you know, there's going to be something better that comes along. Even, I think Jassy might have said, If we had to do it all over again, we would have built the whole thing on lambda functions >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Not on, you know so there you go. >> So maybe someone else does that-- >> Yeah, there you go. >> So now they've got their hybrid. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> You know maybe it'll take another ten years, but well Jean, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, >> it was great to have you. >> My pleasure! >> Appreciate you coming back. >> Really fun to talk. >> All right, keep right there everybody, Paul Gillin and Dave Villante, we'll be right back from MIT CDOIQ, you're watching theCUBE. (chuckles) (techno music)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019 brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. (upbeat techno music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. We go out to the events. We extract the signal from the noise, and we're here at the MIT CDOIQ Conference, Chief Data Officer Information Quality Conference. It is the 13th year here at the Tang building. We've outgrown this building and have to move next year. It's fire marshal full. Gokula Mishra is here. He is the Senior Director of Global Data and Analytics and Supply Chain-- >> Formerly. Former, former Senior Director. >> Former! I'm sorry. It's former Senior Director of Global Data Analytics and Supply Chain at McDonald's. Oh, I didn't know that. I apologize my friend. Well, welcome back to theCUBE. We met when you were at Oracle doing data. So you've left that, you're on to your next big thing. >> Yes, thinking through it. >> Fantastic, now let's start with your career. You've had, so you just recently left McDonald's. I met you when you were at Oracle, so you cut over to the dark side for a while, and then before that, I mean, you've been a practitioner all your life, so take us through sort of your background. >> Yeah, I mean my beginning was really with a company called Tata Burroughs. Those days we did not have a lot of work getting done in India. We used to send people to U.S. so I was one of the pioneers of the whole industry, coming here and working on very interesting projects. But I was lucky to be working on mostly data analytics related work, joined a great company called CS Associates. I did my Master's at Northwestern. In fact, my thesis was intelligent databases. So, building AI into the databases and from there on I have been with Booz Allen, Oracle, HP, TransUnion, I also run my own company, and Sierra Atlantic, which is part of Hitachi, and McDonald's. >> Awesome, so let's talk about use of data. It's evolved dramatically as we know. One of the themes in this conference over the years has been sort of, I said yesterday, the Chief Data Officer role emerged from the ashes of sort of governance, kind of back office information quality compliance, and then ascended with the tailwind of the Big Data meme, and it's kind of come full circle. People are realizing actually to get value out of data, you have to have information quality. So those two worlds have collided together, and you've also seen the ascendancy of the Chief Digital Officer who has really taken a front and center role in some of the more strategic and revenue generating initiatives, and in some ways the Chief Data Officer has been a supporting role to that, providing the quality, providing the compliance, the governance, and the data modeling and analytics, and a component of it. First of all, is that a fair assessment? How do you see the way in which the use of data has evolved over the last 10 years? >> So to me, primarily, the use of data was, in my mind, mostly around financial reporting. So, anything that companies needed to run their company, any metrics they needed, any data they needed. So, if you look at all the reporting that used to happen it's primarily around metrics that are financials, whether it's around finances around operations, finances around marketing effort, finances around reporting if it's a public company reporting to the market. That's where the focus was, and so therefore a lot of the data that was not needed for financial reporting was what we call nowadays dark data. This is data we collect but don't do anything with it. Then, as the capability of the computing, and the storage, and new technologies, and new techniques evolve, and are able to handle more variety and more volume of data, then people quickly realize how much potential they have in the other data outside of the financial reporting data that they can utilize too. So, some of the pioneers leverage that and actually improved a lot in their efficiency of operations, came out with innovation. You know, GE comes to mind as one of the companies that actually leverage data early on, and number of other companies. Obviously, you look at today data has been, it's defining some of the multi-billion dollar company and all they have is data. >> Well, Facebook, Google, Amazon, Microsoft. >> Exactly. >> Apple, I mean Apple obviously makes stuff, but those other companies, they're data companies. I mean largely, and those five companies have the highest market value on the U.S. stock exchange. They've surpassed all the other big leaders, even Berkshire Hathaway. >> So now, what is happening is because the market changes, the forces that are changing the behavior of our consumers and customers, which I talked about which is everyone now is digitally engaging with each other. What that does is all the experiences now are being captured digitally, all the services are being captured digitally, all the products are creating a lot of digital exhaust of data and so now companies have to pay attention to engage with their customers and partners digitally. Therefore, they have to make sure that they're leveraging data and analytics in doing so. The other thing that has changed is the time to decision to the time to act on the data inside that you get is shrinking, and shrinking, and shrinking, so a lot more decision-making is now going real time. Therefore, you have a situation now, you have the capability, you have the technology, you have the data now, you have to make sure that you convert that in what I call programmatic kind of data decision-making. Obviously, there are people involved in more strategic decision-making. So, that's more manual, but at the operational level, it's going more programmatic decision-making. >> Okay, I want to talk, By the way, I've seen a stat, I don't know if you can confirm this, that 80% of the data that's out there today is dark data or it's data that's behind a firewall or not searchable, not open to Google's crawlers. So, there's a lot of value there-- >> So, I would say that percent is declining over time as companies have realized the value of data. So, more and more companies are removing the silos, bringing those dark data out. I think the key to that is companies being able to value their data, and as soon as they are able to value their data, they are able to leverage a lot of the data. I still believe there's a large percent still not used or accessed in companies. >> Well, and of course you talked a lot about data monetization. Doug Laney, who's an expert in that topic, we had Doug on a couple years ago when he, just after, he wrote Infonomics. He was on yesterday. He's got a very detailed prescription as to, he makes strong cases as to why data should be valued like an asset. I don't think anybody really disagrees with that, but then he gave kind of a how-to-do-it, which will, somewhat, make your eyes bleed, but it was really well thought out, as you know. But you talked a lot about data monetization, you talked about a number of ways in which data can contribute to monetization. Revenue, cost reduction, efficiency, risk, and innovation. Revenue and cost is obvious. I mean, that's where the starting point is. Efficiency is interesting. I look at efficiency as kind of a doing more with less but it's sort of a cost reduction, but explain why it's not in the cost bucket, it's different. >> So, it is first starts with doing what we do today cheaper, better, faster, and doing more comes after that because if you don't understand, and data is the way to understand how your current processes work, you will not take the first step. So, to take the first step is to understand how can I do this process faster, and then you focus on cheaper, and then you focus on better. Of course, faster is because of some of the market forces and customer behavior that's driving you to do that process faster. >> Okay, and then the other one was risk reduction. I think that makes a lot of sense here. Actually, let me go back. So, one of the key pieces of it, of efficiency is time to value. So, if you can compress the time, or accelerate the time and you get the value that means more cash in house faster, whether it's cost reduction or-- >> And the other aspect you look at is, can you automate more of the processes, and in that way it can be faster. >> And that hits the income statement as well because you're reducing headcount cost of your, maybe not reducing headcount cost, but you're getting more out of different, out ahead you're reallocating them to more strategic initiatives. Everybody says that but the reality is you hire less people because you just automated. And then, risk reduction, so the degree to which you can lower your expected loss. That's just instead thinking in insurance terms, that's tangible value so certainly to large corporations, but even midsize and small corporations. Innovation, I thought was a good one, but maybe you could use an example of, give us an example of how in your career you've seen data contribute to innovation. >> So, I'll give an example of oil and gas industry. If you look at speed of innovation in the oil and gas industry, they were all paper-based. I don't know how much you know about drilling. A lot of the assets that goes into figuring out where to drill, how to drill, and actually drilling and then taking the oil or gas out, and of course selling it to make money. All of those processes were paper based. So, if you can imagine trying to optimize a paper-based innovation, it's very hard. Not only that, it's very, very by itself because it's on paper, it's in someone's drawer or file. So, it's siloed by design and so one thing that the industry has gone through, they recognize that they have to optimize the processes to be better, to innovate, to find, for example, shale gas was a result output of digitizing the processes because otherwise you can't drill faster, cheaper, better to leverage the shale gas drilling that they did. So, the industry went through actually digitizing a lot of the paper assets. So, they went from not having data to knowingly creating the data that they can use to optimize the process and then in the process they're innovating new ways to drill the oil well cheaper, better, faster. >> In the early days of oil exploration in the U.S. go back to the Osage Indian tribe in northern Oklahoma, and they brilliantly, when they got shuttled around, they pushed him out of Kansas and they negotiated with the U.S. government that they maintain the mineral rights and so they became very, very wealthy. In fact, at one point they were the wealthiest per capita individuals in the entire world, and they used to hold auctions for various drilling rights. So, it was all gut feel, all the oil barons would train in, and they would have an auction, and it was, again, it was gut feel as to which areas were the best, and then of course they evolved, you remember it used to be you drill a little hole, no oil, drill a hole, no oil, drill a hole. >> You know how much that cost? >> Yeah, the expense is enormous right? >> It can vary from 10 to 20 million dollars. >> Just a giant expense. So, now today fast-forward to this century, and you're seeing much more sophisticated-- >> Yeah, I can give you another example in pharmaceutical. They develop new drugs, it's a long process. So, one of the initial process is to figure out what molecules this would be exploring in the next step, and you could have thousand different combination of molecules that could treat a particular condition, and now they with digitization and data analytics, they're able to do this in a virtual world, kind of creating a virtual lab where they can test out thousands of molecules. And then, once they can bring it down to a fewer, then the physical aspect of that starts. Think about innovation really shrinking their processes. >> All right, well I want to say this about clouds. You made the statement in your keynote that how many people out there think cloud is cheaper, or maybe you even said cheap, but cheaper I inferred cheaper than an on-prem, and so it was a loaded question so nobody put their hand up they're afraid, but I put my hand up because we don't have any IT. We used to have IT. It was a nightmare. So, for us it's better but in your experience, I think I'm inferring correctly that you had meant cheaper than on-prem, and certainly we talked to many practitioners who have large systems that when they lift and shift to the cloud, they don't change their operating model, they don't really change anything, they get a bill at the end of the month, and they go "What did this really do for us?" And I think that's what you mean-- >> So what I mean, let me make it clear, is that there are certain use cases that cloud is and, as you saw, that people did raise their hand saying "Yeah, I have use cases where cloud is cheaper." I think you need to look at the whole thing. Cost is one aspect. The flexibility and agility of being able to do things is another aspect. For example, if you have a situation where your stakeholder want to do something for three weeks, and they need five times the computing power, and the data that they are buying from outside to do that experiment. Now, imagine doing that in a physical war. It's going to take a long time just to procure and get the physical boxes, and then you'll be able to do it. In cloud, you can enable that, you can get GPUs depending on what problem we are trying to solve. That's another benefit. You can get the fit for purpose computing environment to that and so there are a lot of flexibility, agility all of that. It's a new way of managing it so people need to pay attention to the cost because it will add to the cost. The other thing I will point out is that if you go to the public cloud, because they make it cheaper, because they have hundreds and thousands of this canned CPU. This much computing power, this much memory, this much disk, this much connectivity, and they build thousands of them, and that's why it's cheaper. Well, if your need is something that's very unique and they don't have it, that's when it becomes a problem. Either you need more of those and the cost will be higher. So, now we are getting to the IOT war. The volume of data is growing so much, and the type of processing that you need to do is becoming more real-time, and you can't just move all this bulk of data, and then bring it back, and move the data back and forth. You need a special type of computing, which is at the, what Amazon calls it, adds computing. And the industry is kind of trying to design it. So, that is an example of hybrid computing evolving out of a cloud or out of the necessity that you need special purpose computing environment to deal with new situations, and all of it can't be in the cloud. >> I mean, I would argue, well I guess Microsoft with Azure Stack was kind of the first, although not really. Now, they're there but I would say Oracle, your former company, was the first one to say "Okay, we're going to put the exact same infrastructure on prem as we have in the public cloud." Oracle, I would say, was the first to truly do that-- >> They were doing hybrid computing. >> You now see Amazon with outposts has done the same, Google kind of has similar approach as Azure, and so it's clear that hybrid is here to stay, at least for some period of time. I think the cloud guys probably believe that ultimately it's all going to go to the cloud. We'll see it's going to be a long, long time before that happens. Okay! I'll give you last thoughts on this conference. You've been here before? Or is this your first one? >> This is my first one. >> Okay, so your takeaways, your thoughts, things you might-- >> I am very impressed. I'm a practitioner and finding so many practitioners coming from so many different backgrounds and industries. It's very, very enlightening to listen to their journey, their story, their learnings in terms of what works and what doesn't work. It is really invaluable. >> Yeah, I tell you this, it's always a highlight of our season and Gokula, thank you very much for coming on theCUBE. It was great to see you. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. All right, keep it right there everybody. We'll be back with our next guest, Dave Vellante. Paul Gillin is in the house. You're watching theCUBE from MIT. Be right back! (upbeat techno music)

>> from Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's three Cube covering M I T. Chief data officer and information quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Hi already. We're back in Cambridge, Massachusetts at the M I t. Chief data officer Information quality event. Hashtag m i t cdo i Q. And I'm David Dante. He's Paul Gillen. Day one of our two day coverage of this event. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Joe Caserta is here is the president of Caserta and Doug Laney, who is principal data strategist at Caserta, both Cube alarm guys. Great to see you again, Joe. What? Did you pick up this guy? How did that all came on here a couple of years ago? We had a great conversation. I read the book, Loved it. So congratulations. A nice pickup. >> We're very fortunate to have. >> Thanks. So I'm fortunate to be here, >> so Okay, well, what attracted you to Cassard? Oh, >> it's Joe's got a tremendous reputation. His his team of consultants has a great reputation. We both felt there was an opportunity to build some data strategy competency on top of that and leverage some of those in Phanom. Its ideas that I've been working on over the years. >> Great. Well, congratulations. And so, Joe, you and I have talked many times. And the reason I like talking because you know what's going on in the market place? You could you could siphon. What's riel? What's hype? So what do you see? It is the big trends in this data space, and then we'll get into it. Yeah, sure. Um, trends >> are chief data officer has been evolving over the last couple of years. You know, when we started doing this several years ago, there was just a handful of people, maybe 30 40 people. Now, there's 450 people here today, and it's been evolving. People are still trying to find their feet. Exactly what the chief date officers should be doing where they are in the hierarchy. Should they report to the c e o the C I O u the other CDO, which is a digital officer. So I think you know, hierarchically. That's still figuring it out politically. They're figuring it out, but technically also, they're still trying to figure it out. You know what's been happening over the past three years is the evolution of data going from traditional data warehousing and business intelligence. To get inside out of data just isn't working anymore. Eso evolving that moving it forward to more modern data engineering we've been doing for the past couple of years with quote unquote big data on That's not working anymore either, right? Because it's been evolving so fast. So now we're on, like, maybe Data three dato. And now we're talking about just pure automate everything. We have to automate everything. And we have to change your mindset from from having output of a data solution to an outcome to date a solution. And that's why I hired Doug, because way have to figure out not only had to get this data and look at it and analyze really had to monetize it, right? It's becoming a revenue stream for your business if you're doing it right and Doug is the leader in the industry, how to figure that >> you keep keep premise of your book was you gotta start valuing data and its fundamental you put forth a number of approaches and techniques and examples of companies doing that. Since you've published in phenomena Microsoft Apple, Amazon, Google and Facebook. Of the top five market value cos they've surpassed all the financial service is guys all ExxonMobil's and any manufacturer? Automobile makers? And what of a data companies, right? Absolutely. But intrinsically we know there's value their way any closer to the prescription that you put forth. >> Yeah, it's really no surprise and extra. We found that data companies have, ah, market to book value. That's nearly 33 times the market average, so Apple and others are much higher than that. But on average, if you look at the data product companies, they're valued much higher than other companies, probably because data can be reused in multiple ways. That's one of the core tenets of intra nomics is that Data's is non depleted ble regenerative, reusable asset and that companies that get that an architect of businesses based on those economics of information, um, can really perform well and not just data companies, but >> any company. That was a key takeaway of the book. The data doesn't conform to the laws of scarcity. Every says data is the new oil. It's like, No, it's not more valuable. So what are some examples in writing your book and customers that you work with. Where do you see Cos outside of these big data driven firms, breaking new ground and uses of data? I >> think the biggest opportunity is really not with the big giant Cos it's really with. Most of our most valuable clients are small companies with large volumes of data. You know if and the reason why they can remain small companies with large volumes of data is the thing that holds back the big giant enterprises is they have so much technical. Dad, it's very hard. They're like trying to, you know, raise the Titanic, right? You can't really. It's not agile enough. You need something that small and agile in order to pivot because it is changing so fast every time there's a solution created, it's obsolete. We have to greet the new solution on dhe when you have a big old processes. Big old technologies, big old mind sets on big old cultures. It's very hard to be agile. >> So is there no hope? I mean, the reason I ask the question was, What hope can you give some of these smokestack companies that they can become data centric? Yeah, What you >> see is that there was a There was a move to build big, monolithic data warehouses years ago and even Data Lakes. And what we find is that through the wealth of examples of companies that have benefited in significant ways from data and analytics, most of those solutions are very vocational. They're very functionally specific. They're not enterprise class, yada, yada, kind of kind of projects. They're focused on a particular business problem or monetizing or leveraging data in a very specific way, and they're generating millions of dollars of value. But again they tend to be very, very functionally specific. >> The other trend that we're seeing is also that the technology and the and the end result of what you're doing with your data is one thing. But really, in order to make that shift, if your big enterprises culture to really change all of the people within the organization to migrate from being a conventional wisdom run company to be a data really analytics driven company, and that takes a lot of change management, a lot of what we call data therapy way actually launched a new practice within the organization that Doug is actually and I are collaborating on to really mature because that is the next wave is really we figured out the data part. We figured out the technology part, but now it's the people part people. Part is really why we're not way ahead of where we even though we're way ahead of where we were a couple of years ago, we should be even further. Culturally, it's very, very challenging, and we need to address that head on. >> And that zeta skills issue that they're sort of locked into their existing skill sets and processes. Or is it? It's fear of the unknown what we're doing, you know? What about foam? Oh, yeah, Well, I mean, there are people >> jumping into bed to do this, right? So there is that part in an exciting part of it. But there's also just fear, you know, and fear of the unknown and, you know, part of what we're trying to do. And why were you trying Thio push Doug's book not for sales, but really just to share the knowledge and remove the mystery and let people see what they can actually do with this data? >> Yeah, it's more >> than just date illiteracy. So there's a lot of talk of the industry about data literacy programs and educating business people on the data and educating data people on the business. And that's obviously important. But what Joe is talking about is something bigger than that. It's really cultural, and it's something that is changed to the company's DNA. >> So where do you attack that problem? It doesn't have to go from the top down. You go into the middle. It has to >> be from the top down. It has to be. It has to be because my boss said to do it all right. >> Well, otherwise they well, they might do it. But the organization's because if you do, it >> is a grassroots movement on Lee. The folks who are excited, right? The foam of people, right? They're the ones who are gonna be excited. But they're going to evolve in adopt anyway, right? But it's the rest of the organization, and that needs to be a top down, Um, approach. >> It was interesting hearing this morning keynote speakers. You scored a throw on top down under the bus, but I had the same reaction is you can't do it without that executive buying. And of course, we defined, I guess in the session what that was. Amazon has an interesting concept for for any initiative, like every initiative that's funded has to have what they call a threaded leader. Another was some kind of And if they don't, if they don't have a threat of leader, there's like an incentive system tau dime on initiative. Kill it. It kind of forces top down. Yeah, you know, So >> when we interview our clients, we have a litmus test and the limits. It's kind of a ready in this test. Do you have the executive leadership to actually make this project successful? And in a lot of cases, they don't And you know, we'll have to say will call us when you're ready, you know, or because one of the challenges another part of the litmus test is this IittIe driven. If it's I t driven is gonna be very tough to get embraced by the rest of the business. So way need to really be able to have that executive leadership from the business to say this is something that we need >> to do to survive. Yeah, and, you know, with without the top down support. You could play small ball. But if you're playing the Yankees, you're gonna win one >> of the reasons why when it's I t driven, it's very challenging is because the people part right is a different budget from the i T budget. And when we start talking about data therapy, right and human resource is and training and education of just culture and data literacy, which is not necessary technical, that that becomes a challenge internally figuring out, like how to pay for Andi how to get it done with a corporate politics. >> So So the CDO crowd definitely parts of your book that they should be adopting because to me, there their main job is okay. How does data support the monetization of my organization? Raising revenue, cutting costs, improving productivity, saving lives. You call it value. And so that seems to be the starting point. At the same time. In this conference, you grew out of the ashes of back room information quality of the big data height, but exploded and have kind of gone full circle. So But I wonder, I mean, is the CDO crowd still focused on that monetization? Certainly I think we all agree they should be, but they're getting sucked back into a governance role. Can they do both, I guess, is >> my question. Well, governance has been, has been a big issue the past few years with all of the new compliance regulation and focus on on on ensuring compliance with them. But there's often a just a pendulum swing back, and I think there's a swing back to adding business value. And so we're seeing a lot of opportunities to help companies monetize their data broadly in a variety of ways. A CZ you mentioned not just in one way and, um, again those you need to be driven from the top. We have a process that we go through to generate ideas, and that's wonderful. Generating ideas. No is fairly straightforward enough. But then running them through kind of a feasibility government, starting with you have the executive support for that is a technology technologically feasible, managerially feasible, ethically feasible and so forth. So we kind of run them through that gauntlet next. >> One of my concerns is that chief data officer, the level of involvement that year he has in these digital initiatives again is digital initiative of Field of Dreams. Maybe it is. But everywhere you go the CEO is trying to get digital right, and it seems like the chief data officer is not necessarily front and center in those. Certainly a I projects, which are skunk works. But it's the chief digital officer that's driving it. So how how do you see in those roles playoff >> In the less panel that I've just spoken, very similar question was asked. And again, we're trying to figure out the hierarchy of where the CDO should live in an organization. Um, I find that the biggest place it fails typically is if it rolls up to a C I. O. Right. If you think the data is a technical issue, you're wrong, Right? Data is a business issue, Andi. I also think for any company to survive today, they have to have a digital presence. And so digital presence is so tightly coupled to data that I find the best success is when the chief date officer reports directly to the chief digital officer. Chief Digital officer has a vision for the user experience for the customer customers Ella to figure out. How do we get that customer engaged and that directly is dependent on insight. Right on analytics. You know, if the four of us were to open up, any application on our phone, even for the same product, would have four different experiences based on who we are, who are peers are what we bought in the past, that's all based on analytics. So the business application of the digital presence is tightly couple tow Analytics, which is driven by the chief state officer. >> That's the first time I've heard that. I think that's the right organizational structure. Did see did. JJ is going to be sort of the driver, right? The strategy. That's where the budget's gonna go and the chief date office is gonna have that supporting role that's vital. The enabler. Yeah, I think the chief data officer is a long term play. Well, we have a lot of cheap date officers. Still, 10 years from now, I think that >> data is not a fad. I think Data's just become more and more important. And will they ultimately leapfrog the chief digital officer and report to the CEO? Maybe someday, but for now, I think that's where they belong. >> You know what's company started managing their labor and workforce is as an actual asset, even though it's not a balance sheet. Asked for obvious reasons in the 19 sixties that gave rise to the chief human resource officer, which we still see today and his company start to recognize information as an asset, you need an executive leader to oversee and be responsible for that asset. >> Conceptually, it's always been data is an asset and a liability. And, you know, we've always thought about balancing terms. Your book sort of put forth a formula for actually formalizing. That's right. Do you think it's gonna happen our lifetime? What exactly clear on it, what you put forth in your book in terms of organizations actually valuing data specifically on the balance sheet. So that's >> an accounting question and one that you know that you leave to the accounting professionals. But there have been discussion papers published by the accounting standards bodies to discuss that issue. We're probably at least 10 years away, but I think respective weather data is that about what she'd asked or not. It's an imperative organizations to behave as if it is one >> that was your point it's probably not gonna happen, but you got a finger in terms that you can understand the value because it comes >> back to you can't manage what you don't measure and measuring the value of potential value or quality of your information. Or what day do you have your in a poor position to manage it like one. And if you're not manage like an asset, then you're really not probably able to leverage it like one. >> Give us a little commercial for I do want to say that I do >> think in our lifetime we will see it become an asset. There are lots of intangible assets that are on the books, intellectual property contracts. I think data that supports both of those things are equally is important. And they will they will see the light. >> Why are those five companies huge market cap winners, where they've surpassed all the evaluation >> of a business that the data that they have is considered right? So it should be part of >> the assets in the books. All right, we gotta wraps, But give us Give us the The Caserta Commercial. Well, concert is >> a consultancy that does essentially three things. We do data advisory work, which, which Doug is heading up. We do data architecture and strategy, and we also do just implementation of solutions. Everything from data engineering gate architecture and data science. >> Well, you made a good bet on data. Thanks for coming on, you guys. Great to see you again. Thank you. That's a wrap on day one, Paul. And I'll be back tomorrow for day two with the M I t cdo m I t cdo like you. Thanks for watching. We'll see them all.

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody, you're watching The Cube, the leader in tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante here with my cohost Paul Gillin. This is day one of our two day coverage of the MIT CDOIQ conferences. CDO, Chief Data Officer, IQ, information quality. Colin Mahoney is here, he's a good friend and long time CUBE alum. I haven't seen you in awhile, >> I know >> But thank you so much for taking some time, you're like a special guest here >> Thank you, yeah it's great to be here, thank you. >> Yeah, so, this is not, you know, something that you would normally attend. I caught up with you, invited you in. This conference has started as, like back office governance, information quality, kind of wonky stuff, hidden. And then when the big data meme took off, kind of around the time we met. The Chief Data Officer role emerged, the whole Hadoop thing exploded, and then this conference kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger. Still intimate, but very high level, very senior. It's kind of come full circle as we've been saying, you know, information quality still matters. You have been in this data business forever, so I wanted to invite you in just to get your perspectives, we'll talk about what's new with what's going on in your company, but let's go back a little bit. When we first met and even before, you saw it coming, you kind of invested your whole career into data. So, take us back 10 years, I mean it was so different, remember it was Batch, it was Hadoop, but it was cool. There was a lot of cool >> It's still cool. (laughs) projects going on, and it's still cool. But, take a look back. >> Yeah, so it's changed a lot, look, I got into it a while ago, I've always loved data, I had no idea, the explosion and the three V's of data that we've seen over the last decade. But, data's really important, and it's just going to get more and more important. But as I look back I think what's really changed, and even if you just go back a decade I mean, there's an insatiable appetite for data. And that is not slowing down, it hasn't slowed down at all, and I think everybody wants that perfect solution that they can ask any question and get an immediate answers to. We went through the Hadoop boom, I'd argue that we're going through the Hadoop bust, but what people actually want is still the same. You know, they want real answers, accurate answers, they want them quickly, and they want it against all their information and all their data. And I think that Hadoop evolved a lot as well, you know, it started as one thing 10 years ago, with MapReduce and I think in the end what it's really been about is disrupting the storage market. But if you really look at what's disrupting storage right now, public clouds, S3, right? That's the new data league. So there's always a lot of hype cycles, everybody talks about you know, now it's Cloud, everything, for maybe the last 10 years it was a lot of Hadoop, but at the end of the day I think what people want to do with data is still very much the same. And a lot of companies are still struggling with it, hence the role for Chief Data Officers to really figure out how do I monetize data on the one hand and how to I protect that asset on the other hand. >> Well so, and the cool this is, so this conference is not a tech conference, really. And we love tech, we love talking about this, this is why I love having you on. We kind of have a little Vertica thread that I've created here, so Colin essentially, is the current CEO of Vertica, I know that's not your title, you're GM and Senior Vice President, but you're running Vertica. So, Michael Stonebreaker's coming on tomorrow, >> Yeah, excellent. >> Chris Lynch is coming on tomorrow, >> Oh, great, yeah. >> we've got Andy Palmer >> Awesome, yeah. >> coming up as well. >> Pretty cool. (laughs) >> So we have this connection, why is that important? It's because, you know, Vertica is a very cool company and is all about data, and it was all about disrupting, sort of the traditional relational database. It's kind of doing more with data, and if you go back to the roots of Vertica, it was like how do you do things faster? How do you really take advantage of data to really drive new business? And that's kind of what it's all about. And the tech behind it is really cool, we did your conference for many, many years. >> It's coming back by the way. >> Is it? >> Yeah, this March, so March 30th. >> Oh, wow, mark that down. >> At Boston, at the new Encore Hotel. >> Well we better have theCUBE there, bro. (laughs) >> Yeah, that's great. And yeah, you've done that conference >> Yep. >> haven't you before? So very cool customers, kind of leading edge, so I want to get to some of that, but let's talk the disruption for a minute. So you guys started with the whole architecture, MPP and so forth. And you talked about Cloud, Cloud really disrupted Hadoop. What are some of the other technology disruptions that you're seeing in the market space? >> I think, I mean, you know, it's hard not to talk about AI machine learning, and what one means versus the other, who knows right? But I think one thing that is definitely happening is people are leveraging the volumes of data and they're trying to use all the processing power and storage power that we have to do things that humans either are too expensive to do or simply can't do at the same speed and scale. And so, I think we're going through a renaissance where a lot more is being automated, certainly on the Vertica roadmap, and our path has always been initially to get the data in and then we want the platform to do a lot more for our customers, lots more analytics, lots more machine-learning in the platform. So that's definitely been a lot of the buzz around, but what's really funny is when you talk to a lot of customers they're still struggling with just some basic stuff. Forget about the predictive thing, first you've got to get to what happened in the past. Let's give accurate reporting on what's actually happening. The other big thing I think as a disruption is, I think IOT, for all the hype that it's getting it's very real. And every device is kicking off lots of information, the feedback loop of AB testing or quality testing for predictive maintenance, it's happening almost instantly. And so you're getting massive amounts of new data coming in, it's all this machine sensor type data, you got to figure out what it means really quick, and then you actually have to do something and act on it within seconds. And that's a whole new area for so many people. It's not their traditional enterprise data network warehouse and you know, back to you comment on Stonebreaker, he got a lot of this right from the beginning, you know, and I think he looked at the architectures, he took a lot of the best in class designs, we didn't necessarily invent everything, but we put a lot of that together. And then I think the other you've got to do is constantly re-invent your platform. We came out with our Eon Mode to run cloud native, we just got rated the best cloud data warehouse from a net promoter score rating perspective, so, but we got to keep going you know, we got to keep re-inventing ourselves, but leverage everything that we've done in the past as well. >> So one of the things that you said, which is kind of relevant for here, Paul, is you're still seeing a real data quality issue that customers are wrestling with, and that's a big theme here, isn't it? >> Absolutely, and the, what goes around comes around, as Dave said earlier, we're still talking about information quality 13 years after this conference began. Have the tools to improve quality improved all that much? >> I think the tools have improved, I think that's another area where machine learning, if you look at Tamr, and I know you're going to have Andy here tomorrow, they're leveraging a lot of the augmented things you can do with the processing to make it better. But I think one thing that makes the problem worse now, is it's gotten really easy to pour data in. It's gotten really easy to store data without having to have the right structure, the right quality, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, everything was perfect before it got into the platform. Right, everything was, there was quality, everything was there. What's been happening over the last decade is you're pumping data into these systems, nobody knows if it's redundant data, nobody knows if the quality's any good, and the amount of data is massive. >> And it's cheap to store >> Very cheap to store. >> So people keep pumping it in. >> But I think that creates a lot of issues when it comes to data quality. So, I do think the technology's gotten better, I think there's a lot of companies that are doing a great job with it, but I think the challenge has definitely upped. >> So, go ahead. >> I'm sorry. You mentioned earlier that we're seeing the death of Hadoop, but I'd like you to elaborate on that becuase (Dave laughs) Hadoop actually came up this morning in the keynote, it's part of what GlaxoSmithKline did. Came up in a conversation I had with the CEO of Experian last week, I mean, it's still out there, why do you think it's in decline? >> I think, I mean first of all if you look at the Hadoop vendors that are out there, they've all been struggling. I mean some of them are shutting down, two of them have merged and they've got killed lately. I think there are some very successful implementations of Hadoop. I think Hadoop as a storage environment is wonderful, I think you can process a lot of data on Hadoop, but the problem with Hadoop is it became the panacea that was going to solve all things data. It was going to be the database, it was going to be the data warehouse, it was going to do everything. >> That's usually the kiss of death, isn't it? >> It's the kiss of death. And it, you know, the killer app on Hadoop, ironically, became SQL. I mean, SQL's the killer app on Hadoop. If you want to SQL engine, you don't need Hadoop. But what we did was, in the beginning Mike sort of made fun of it, Stonebreaker, and joked a lot about he's heard of MapReduce, it's called Group By, (Dave laughs) and that created a lot of tension between the early Vertica and Hadoop. I think, in the end, we embraced it. We sit next to Hadoop, we sit on top of Hadoop, we sit behind it, we sit in front of it, it's there. But I think what the reality check of the industry has been, certainly by the business folks in these companies is it has not fulfilled all the promises, it has not fulfilled a fraction on the promises that they bet on, and so they need to figure those things out. So I don't think it's going to go away completely, but I think its best success has been disrupting the storage market, and I think there's some much larger disruptions of technologies that frankly are better than HTFS to do that. >> And the Cloud was a gamechanger >> And a lot of them are in the cloud. >> Which is ironic, 'cause you know, cloud era, (Colin laughs) they didn't really have a cloud strategy, neither did Hortonworks, neither did MapR and, it just so happened Amazon had one, Google had one, and Microsoft has one, so, it's just convenient to-- >> Well, how is that affecting your business? We've seen this massive migration to the cloud (mumbles) >> It's actually been great for us, so one of the things about Vertica is we run everywhere, and we made a decision a while ago, we had our own data warehouse as a service offering. It might have been ahead of its time, never really took off, what we did instead is we pivoted and we say "you know what? "We're going to invest in that experience "so it's a SaaS-like experience, "but we're going to let our customers "have full control over the cloud. "And if they want to go to Amazon they can, "if they want to go to Google they can, "if they want to go to Azure they can." And we really invested in that and that experience. We're up on the Amazon marketplace, we have lots of customers running up on Amazon Cloud as well as Google and Azure now, and then about two years ago we went down and did this endeavor to completely re-architect our product so that we could separate compute and storage so that our customers could actually take advantage of the cloud economics as well. That's been huge for us, >> So you scale independent-- >> Scale independently, cloud native, add compute, take away compute, and for our existing customers, they're loving the hybrid aspect, they love that they can still run on Premise, they love that they can run up on a public cloud, they love that they can run in both places. So we will continue to invest a lot in that. And it is really, really important, and frankly, I think cloud has helped Vertica a lot, because being able to provision hardware quickly, being able to tie in to these public clouds, into our customers' accounts, give them control, has been great and we're going to continue on that path. >> Because Vertica's an ISV, I mean you're a software company. >> We're a software company. >> I know you were a part of HP for a while, and HP wanted to mash that in and run it on it's hardware, but software runs great in the cloud. And then to you it's another hardware platform. >> It's another hardware platform, exactly. >> So give us the update on Micro Focus, Micro Focus acquired Vertica as part of the HPE software business, how many years ago now? Two years ago? >> Less than two years ago. >> Okay, so how's that going, >> It's going great. >> Give us the update there. >> Yeah, so first of all it is great, HPE and HP were wonderful to Vertica, but it's great being part of a software company. Micro Focus is a software company. And more than just a software company it's a company that has a lot of experience bridging the old and the new. Leveraging all of the investments that you've made but also thinking about cloud and all these other things that are coming down the pike. I think for Vertica it's been really great because, as you've seen Vertica has gotten its identity back again. And that's something that Micro Focus is very good at. You can look at what Micro Focus did with SUSE, the Linux company, which actually you know, now just recently spun out of Micro Focus but, letting organizations like Vertica that have this culture, have this product, have this passion, really focus on our market and our customers and doing the right thing by them has been just really great for us and operating as a software company. The other nice thing is that we do integrate with a lot of other products, some of which came from the HPE side, some of which came from Micro Focus, security products is an example. The other really nice thing is we've been doing this insource thing at Micro Focus where we open up our source code to some of the other teams in Micro Focus and they've been contributing now in amazing ways to the product. In ways that we would just never be able to scale, but with 4,000 engineers strong in Micro Focus, we've got a much larger development organization that can actually contribute to the things that Vertica needs to do. And as we go into the cloud and as we do a lot more operational aspects, the experience that these teams have has been incredible, and security's another great example there. So overall it's been great, we've had four different owners of Vertica, our job is to continue what we do on the innovation side in the culture, but so far Micro Focus has been terrific. >> Well, I'd like to say, you're kind of getting that mojo back, because you guys as an independent company were doing your own thing, and then you did for a while inside of HP, >> We did. >> And that obviously changed, 'cause they wanted more integration, but, and Micro Focus, they know what they're doing, they know how to do acquisitions, they've been very successful. >> It's a very well run company, operationally. >> The SUSE piece was really interesting, spinning that out, because now RHEL is part of IBM, so now you've got SUSE as the lone independent. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I want to ask you, go back to a technology question, is NoSQL the next Hadoop? Are these databases, it seems to be that the hot fad now is NoSQL, it can do anything. Is the promise overblown? >> I think, I mean NoSQL has been out almost as long as Hadoop, and I, we always say not only SQL, right? Mike's said this from day one, best tool for the job. Nothing is going to do every job well, so I think that there are, whether it's key value stores or other types of NoSQL engines, document DB's, now you have some of these DB's that are running on different chips, >> Graph, yeah. >> there's always, yeah, graph DBs, there's always going to be specialty things. I think one of the things about our analytic platform is we can do, time series is a great example. Vertica's a great time series database. We can compete with specialized time series databases. But we also offer a lot of, the other things that you can do with Vertica that you wouldn't be able to do on a database like that. So, I always think there's going to be specialty products, I also think some of these can do a lot more workloads than you might think, but I don't see as much around the NoSQL movement as say I did a few years ago. >> But so, and you mentioned the cloud before as kind of, your position on it I think is a tailwind, not to put words in your mouth, >> Yeah, yeah, it's a great tailwind. >> You're in the Amazon marketplace, I mean they have products that are competitive, right? >> They do, they do. >> But, so how are you differentiating there? >> I think the way we differentiate, whether it's Redshift from Amazon, or BigQuery from Google, or even what Azure DB does is, first of all, Vertica, I think from, feature functionality and performance standpoint is ahead. Number one, I think the second thing, and we hear this from a lot of customers, especially at the C-level is they don't want to be locked into these full stacks of the clouds. Having the ability to take a product and run it across multiple clouds is a big thing, because the stack lock-in now, the full stack lock-in of these clouds is scary. It's really easy to develop in their ecosystems but you get very locked into them, and I think a lot of people are concerned about that. So that works really well for Vertica, but I think at the end of the day it's just, it's the robustness of the product, we continue to innovate, when you look at separating compute and storage, believe it or not, a lot of these cloud-native databases don't do that. And so we can actually leverage a lot of the cloud hardware better than the native cloud databases do themselves. So, like I said, we have to keep going, those guys aren't going to stop, and we actually have great relationships with those companies, we work really well with the clouds, they seem to care just as much about their cloud ecosystem as their own database products, and so I think that's going to continue as well. >> Well, Colin, congratulations on all the success >> Yeah, thank you, yeah. >> It's awesome to see you again and really appreciate you coming to >> Oh thank you, it's great, I appreciate the invite, >> MIT. >> it's great to be here. >> All right, keep it right there everybody, Paul and I will be back with our next guest from MIT, you're watching theCUBE. (electronic jingle)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering MIT Chief data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to Cambridge, everybody. We're here at Tang building at MIT for the MIT CDOIQ Conference. This is the 13th annual MIT CDOIQ. It started as a information quality conference and grew through the big data era, the Chief Data Officer emerged and now it's sort of a combination of those roles. That governance role, the Chief Data Officer role. Critical for organizations for quality and data initiatives, leading digital transformations ans the like. I'm Dave Vallante with my cohost Paul Gillin, you're watching The Cube, the leader in tech coverage. Mark Chrisco is here, the deputy, sorry, Principle Deputy Director for Enterprise Information at the Department of Defense. Good to see you again, thanks for coming on. >> Oh, thank you for having me. >> So, Principle Deputy Director Enterprise Information, what do you do? >> I do data. I do acquisition data. I'm the person in charge of lining the acquisition data for the programs for the Under Secretary and the components so a strong partnership with the army, navy, and air force to enable the department and the services to execute their programs better, more efficiently, and be efficient in the data management. >> What is acquisition data? >> So acquisition data generally can be considered best in the shorthand of cost schedule performance data. When a program is born, you have to manage, you have to be sure it's resourced, you're reporting up to congress, you need to be sure you have insight into the programs. And finally, sometimes you have to make decisions on those programs. So, cost schedule performance is a good shorthand for it. >> So kind of the key metrics and performance metrics around those initiatives. And how much of that is how you present that data? The visualization of it. Is that part of your role or is that, sort of, another part of the organization you partner with, or? >> Well, if you think about it, the visualization can take many forms beyond that. So a good part of the role is finding the authoritative trusted source of that data, making sure it's accurate so we don't spend time disagreeing on different data sets on cost schedule performance. The major programs are tremendously complex and large and involve and awful lot of data in the a buildup to a point where you can look at that. It's just not about visualizing, it's about having governed authoritative data that is, frankly, trustworthy that you can can go operate in. >> What are some of the challenges of getting good quality data? >> Well, I think part of the challenge was having a common lexicon across the department and the services. And as I said, the partnership with the services had been key in helping define and creating a semantic data model for the department that we can use. So we can have agreement on what it would mean when we were using it and collecting it. The services have thrown all in and, in their perspective, have extended that data model down through their components to their programs so they can better manage the programs because the programs are executed at a service level, not at an OSD level. >> Can you make that real? I mean, is there an example you can give us of what you mean by a common semantic model? >> So for cost schedule, let's take a very simple one, program identification. Having a key number for that, having a long name, a short name, and having just the general description of that, were in various states amongst the systems. We've had decades where, however the system was configured, configured it the way they wanted to. It was largely not governed and then trying to bring those data sets together were just impossible to do. So even with just program identification. Since the majority of the programs and numbers are executed at a service level, we worked really hard to get the common words and meanings across all the programs. >> So it's a governance exercise the? >> Yeah. It is certainly a governance exercise. I think about it as not so much as, in the IT world or the data world will call it governance, it's leadership. Let's settle on some common semantics here that we can all live with and go forward and do that. Because clearly there's needs for other pieces of data that we may or may not have but establishing a core set of common meanings across the department has proven very valuable. >> What are some of the key data challenges that the DOD faces? And how is your role helping address them? >> Well in our case, and I'm certain there's a myriad of data choices across the department. In our place it was clarity in and the governance of this. Many of the pieces of data were required by statute, law, police, or regulation. We came out of eras where data was the piece of a report and not really considered data. And we had to lead our ways to beyond the report to saying, "No, we're really "talking about key data management." So we've been at this for a few years and working with the services, that has been a challenge. I think we're at the part where we've established the common semantics for the department to go forward with that. And one of the challenges that I think is the access and dissemination of knowing what you can share and when you can share it. Because Michael Candolim said earlier that the data in mosaic, sometimes you really need to worry about it from our perspective. Is too much publicly available or should we protect on behalf of the government? >> That's a challenge. Is the are challenge in terms of, I'm sure there is but I wonder if you can describe it or maybe talk about how you might have solved it, maybe it's not a big deal, but you got to serve the mission of the organization. >> Absolutely. >> That's, like, number one. But at the same time, you've got stakeholders and they're powerful politicians and they have needs and there's transparency requirements, there are laws. They're not always aligned, those two directives, are they? >> No, thank goodness I don't have to deal with misalignments of those. We try to speak in the truth of here's the data and the decisions across the organization of our reports still go to congress, they go to congress on an annual basis through the selected acquisition report. And, you know, we are better understanding what we need to protect and how to advice congress on what should be protected and why. I would not say that's an easy proposition. The demands for those data come from the GAO, come from congress, come from the Inspector General and having to navigate that requires good access and dissemination controls and knowing why. We've sponsored some research though the RAND organization to help us look and understand why you have got to protect it and what policies, rules, and regulations are. And all those reports have been public so we could be sure that people would understand what it is. We're coming out of an era where data was not considered as it is today where reports were easily stamped with a little rubber stamp but data now moves at the velocities of milliseconds not as the velocity of reports. So we really took a comprehensive look at that. How do you manage data in a world where it is data and it is on infrastructures like data models. >> So, the future of war. Everybody talks about cyber as the future of war. There's a lot of data associated with that. How does that change what you guys do? Or does it? >> Well, I think from an acquisition perspective, you would think, you know. In that discussion that you just presented us, we're micro in that. We're equipping and acquiring through acquisitions. What we've done is we make sure that our data is shareable, you know? Open I, API structures. Having our data models. Letting the war fighters have our data so they could better understand where information is here. Letting other communities to better help that. By us doing our jobs where we sit, we can contribute to their missions and we've aways been every sharing in that. >> Is technology evolving to the point where, let's assume you could dial back 10 or 15 years and you had the nirvana of data quality. We know how fast technology is changing but is it changing as an enabler to really leverage that quality of data in ways that you might not have even envision 10 or 15 years ago? >> I think technology is. I think a lot of this is not in tools, it's now in technique and management practices. I think many of us find ourselves rethinking of how to do this now that you have data, now that you have tools that you can get them. How can you adopt better and faster? That requires a cultural change to organization. In some cases it requires more advanced skills, in other cases it requires you to think differently about the problems. I always like to consider that we, at some point, thought about it as a process-driven organization. Step one to step two to step three. Now process is ubiquitous because data becomes ubiquitous and you could refactor your processes and decisions much more efficiently and effectively. >> What are some of the information quality problems you have to wrestle with? >> Well, in our case, by setting a definite semantic meaning, we kicked the quality problems to those who provide the authoritative data. And if they had a quality problem, we said, "Here's your data. "We're going to now use it." So it spurs, it changes the model of them ensuring the quality of those who own the data. And by working with the services, they've worked down through their data issues and have used us a bit as the foil for cleaning up their data errors that they have from different inputs. And I like to think about it as flipping the model of saying, "It's not my job to drive quality, "it's my job to drive clarity, "it's their job to drive the quality into the system." >> Let's talk about this event. So, you guys are long-time contributors to the event. Mark, have you been here since the beginning? Or close to it? >> Um... About halfway through I think. >> When the focus was primarily on information quality? >> Yes. >> Was it CDOIQ at the time or was it IQ? >> It was the very beginnings of CDOIQ. It was right before it became CDOIQ. >> Early part of this decade? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> It was Information Quality Symposium originally, is that was attracted you to it? >> Well, yes, I was interested in it because I think there were two things that drew my interest. One, a colleague had told me about it and we were just starting the data journey at that point. And it was talking about information quality and it was out of a business school in the MIT slenton side of the house. And coming from a business perspective, it was not just the providence of IT, I wanted to learn form others because I sit on the business side of the equation. Not a pure IT-ist or technology. And I came here to learn. I've never stopped learning through my entire journey here. >> What have you learned this week? >> Well, there's an awful lot I learned. I think it's been... This space is evolving so rapidly with the law, policy, and regulation. Establishing the CDOs, establishing the roles, getting hear from the CDOs, getting to hear from visions, hear from Michael Conlan and hear from others in the federal agencies. Having them up here and being able to collaborate and talk to them. Also hearing from the technology people, the people that're bringing solutions to the table. And then, I always say this is a bit like group therapy here because many of us have similar problems, we have different start and end points and learning from each other has proven to be very valuable. From the hallway conversations to hearing somebody and seeing how they thought about the products, seeing how commercial industry has implemented data management. And you have a lot of similarity of focus of people dealing with trying to bring data to bring value to the organizations and understanding their transformations, it's proven invaluable. >> Well, what did the appointment of the DOD's first CDO last year, what statement did that make to the organization? >> That data's important. Data are important. And having a CDO in that and, when Micheal came on board, we shared some lessons learned and we were thinking about how to do that, you know? As I said, I function in a, arguably a silo of the institution is the acquisition data. But we were copying CDO homework so it helped in my mind that we can go across to somebody else that would understand and could understand what we're trying to do and help us. And I think it becomes, the CDO community has always been very sharing and collaborative and I hold that true with Micheal today. >> It's kind of the ethos of this event. I mean, obviously you guys have been heavily involved. We've always been thrilled to cover this. I think we started in 2013 and we've seen it grow, it's kind of fire marshal full now. We got to get to a new facility, I understand. >> Fire marshal full. >> Next year. So that's congratulations to all the success. >> Yeah, I think it's important and we've now seen, you know, you hear it, you can read it in every newspaper, every channel out there, that data are important. And what's more important than the factor of governance and the factor of bringing safety and security to the nation? >> I do feel like a lot in, certainly in commercial world, I don't know if it applies in the government, but a lot of these AI projects are moving really fast. Especially in Silicon Valley, there's this move fast and break things mentality. And I think that's part of why you're seeing some of these big tech companies struggle right now because they're moving fast and they're breaking things without the governance injected and many CDOs are not heavily involved in some of these skunk works projects and it's almost like they're bolting on governance which has never been a great formula for success in areas like governance and compliance and security. You know, the philosophy of designing it in has tangible benefits. I wonder if you could comment on that? >> Yeah, I can talk about it as we think about it in our space and it may be limited. AI is a bit high on the hype curve as you might imagine right now, and the question would be is can it solve a problem that you have? Well, you just can't buy a piece of software or a methodology and have it solve a problem if you don't know what problem you're trying to solve and you wouldn't understand the answer when it gave it to you. And I think we have to raise our data intellectualism across the organization to better work with these products because they certainly represent utility but it's not like you give it with no fences on either side or you open up your aperture to find basic solution on this. How you move forward with it is your workforce has got to be in tune with that, you have to understand some of the data, at least the basics, and particularly with products when you get the machine learning AI deep learning, the models are going to be moving so fast that you have to intellectually understand them because you'll never be able to go all the way back and stubby pencil back to an answer. And if you don't have the skills and the math and the understanding of how these things are put together, it may not bring the value that they can bring to us. >> Mark, thanks very much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you very much. >> Great to see you again and appreciate all the work you guys both do for the community. All right. And thank you for watching. We'll be right back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching The Cube from MIT CDOIQ.