>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80, but startup showcases MarTech is the focus. And this is all about the emerging cloud scale customer experience. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting, fast growing startups from the cloud AWS ecosystem to talk about the future and what's available now, where are the actions? I'm your host John fur. Today. We joined by Cub alumni, Jerry Chen partner at Greylock ventures. Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on, >>John. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate you welcome there for season two. Uh, as a, as a guest star, >><laugh>, you know, Hey, you know, season two, it's not a one and done it's continued coverage. We, we got the episodic, uh, cube flicks model going >>Here. Well, you know, congratulations, the, the coverage on this ecosystem around AWS has been impressive, right? I think you and I have talked a long time about AWS and the ecosystem building. It just continues to grow. And so the coverage you did last season, all the events of this season is, is pretty amazing from the data security to now marketing. So it's, it's great to >>Watch. And 12 years now, the cube been running. I remember 2013, when we first met you in the cube, we just left VMware just getting into the venture business. And we were just riffing the next 80. No one really kind of knew how big it would be. Um, but we were kinda riffing on. We kind of had a sense now it's happening. So now you start to see every vertical kind of explode with the right digital transformation and disruption where you see new incumbents. I mean, new Newton brands get replaced the incumbent old guard. And now in MarTech, it's ripe for, for disruption because web two has gone on to web 2.5, 3, 4, 5, um, cookies are going away. You've got more governance and privacy challenges. There's a slew of kind of ad tech baggage, but yet lots of new data opportunities. Jerry, this is a huge, uh, thing. What's your take on this whole MarTech cloud scale, uh, >>Market? I, I think, I think to your point, John, that first the trends are correct and the bad and the good or good old days, the battle days MarTech is really about your webpage. And then email right there. There's, there's the emails, the only channel and the webpage was only real estate and technology to care about fast forward, you know, 10 years you have webpages, mobile apps, VR experiences, car experiences, your, your, your Alexa home experiences. Let's not even get to web three web 18, whatever it is. Plus you got text messages, WhatsApp, messenger, email, still great, et cetera. So I think what we've seen is both, um, explosion and data, uh, explosion of channel. So sources of data have increases and the fruits of the data where you can reach your customers from text, email, phone calls, etcetera have exploded too. So the previous generation created big company responses, Equa, you know, that exact target that got acquired by Oracle or, or, um, Salesforce, and then companies like, um, you know, MailChimp that got acquired as well, but into it, you're seeing a new generation companies for this new stack. So I, I think it's exciting. >>Yeah. And you mentioned all those things about the different channels and stuff, but the key point is now the generation shifts going on, not just technical generation, uh, and platform and tools, it's the people they're younger. They don't do email. They have, you know, proton mail accounts, zillion Gmail accounts, just to get the freebie. Um, they're like, they're, they'll do subscriptions, but not a lot. So the generational piece on the human side is huge. Okay. And then you got the standards, bodies thrown away, things like cookies. Sure. So all this is makes it for a complicated, messy situation. Um, so out of this has to come a billion dollar startup in my mind, >>I, I think multiple billion dollars, but I think you're right in the sense that how we want engage with the company branch, either consumer brands or business brands, no one wants to pick a phone anymore. Right? Everybody wants to either chat or DM people on Twitter. So number one, the, the way we engage is different, both, um, where both, how like chat or phone, but where like mobile device, but also when it's the moment when we need to talk to a company or brand be it at the store, um, when I'm shopping in real life or in my car or at the airport, like we want to reach the brands, the brands wanna reach us at the point of decision, the point of support, the point of contact. And then you, you layer upon that the, the playing field, John of privacy security, right? All these data silos in the cloud, the, the, the, the game has changed and become even more complicated with the startup. So the startups are gonna win. Will do, you know, the collect, all the data, make us secure in private, but then reach your customers when and where they want and how they want it. >>So I gotta ask you, because you had a great podcast just this week, published and snowflake had their event going on the data cloud, there's a new kind of SAS platform vibe going on. You're starting to see it play out. Uh, and one of the things I, I noticed on your podcast with the president of Hashi Corp, who was on people should listen to that podcast. It's on gray matter, which is the Greylocks podcast, uh, plug for you guys. He mentioned he mentions the open source dynamic, right? Sure. And, and I like what he, things, he said, he said, software business has changed forever. It's my words. Now he said infrastructure, but I'm saying software in general, more broader infrastructure and software as a category is all open source. One game over no debate. Right. You agree? >>I, I think you said infrastructure specifically starts at open source, but I would say all open source is one more or less because open source is in every bit of software. Right? And so from your operating system to your car, to your mobile phone, open source, not necessarily as a business model or, or, or whatever, we can talk about that. But open source as a way to build software distribute, software consume software has one, right? It is everywhere. So regardless how you make money on it, how you build software, an open source community ha has >>One. Okay. So let's just agree. That's cool. I agree with that. Let's take it to the next level. I'm a company starting a company to sell to big companies who pay. I gotta have a proprietary advantage. There's gotta be a way. And there is, I know you've talked about it, but I have my opinion. There is needs to be a way to be proprietary in a way that allows for that growth, whether it's integration, it's not gonna be on software license or maybe support or new open source model. But how does startups in the MarTech this area in general, when they disrupt or change the category, they gotta get value creation going. What's your take on, on building. >>You can still build proprietary software on top of open source, right? So there's many companies out there, um, you know, in a company called rock set, they've heavily open source technology like Rock's DB under the hood, but they're running a cloud database. That's proprietary snowflake. You talk about them today. You know, it's not open source technology company, but they use open source software. I'm sure in the hoods, but then there's open source companies, data break. So let's not confus the two, you can still build proprietary software. There's just components of open source, wherever we go. So number one is you can still build proprietary IP. Number two, you can get proprietary data sources, right? So I think increasingly you're seeing companies fight. I call this systems intelligence, right, by getting proprietary data, to train your algorithms, to train your recommendations, to train your applications, you can still collect data, um, that other competitors don't have. >>And then it can use the data differently, right? The system of intelligence. And then when you apply the system intelligence to the end user, you can create value, right? And ultimately, especially marketing tech, the highest level, what we call the system of engagement, right? If, if the chat bot the mobile UI, the phone, the voice app, etcetera, if you own the system of engagement, be a slack, or be it, the operating system for a phone, you can also win. So still multiple levels to play John in multiple ways to build proprietary advantage. Um, just gotta own system record. Yeah. System intelligence, system engagement. Easy, right? Yeah. >>Oh, so easy. Well, the good news is the cloud scale and the CapEx funded there. I mean, look at Amazon, they've got a ton of open storage. You mentioned snowflake, but they're getting a proprietary value. P so I need to ask you MarTech in particular, that means it's a data business, which you, you pointed out and we agree. MarTech will be about the data of the workflows. How do you get those workflows what's changing and how these companies are gonna be building? What's your take on it? Because it's gonna be one of those things where it might be the innovation on a source of data, or how you handle two parties, ex handling encrypted data sets. I don't know. Maybe it's a special encryption tool, so we don't know what it is. What's your what's, what's your outlook on this area? >>I, I, I think that last point just said is super interesting, super genius. It's integration or multiple data sources. So I think either one, if it's a data business, do you have proprietary data? Um, one number two with the data you do have proprietary, not how do you enrich the data and do you enrich the data with, uh, a public data set or a party data set? So this could be cookies. It could be done in Brad street or zoom info information. How do you enrich the data? Number three, do you have machine learning models or some other IP that once you collected the data, enriched the data, you know, what do you do with the data? And then number four is once you have, um, you know, that model of the data, the customer or the business, what do you deal with it? Do you email, do you do a tax? >>Do you do a campaign? Do you upsell? Do you change the price dynamically in our customers? Do you serve a new content on your website? So I think that workflow to your point is you can start from the same place, what to do with the data in between and all the, on the out the side of this, this pipeline is where a MarTech company can have then. So like I said before, it was a website to an email go to website. You know, we have a cookie fill out a form. Yeah. I send you an email later. I think now you, you can't just do a website to email, it's a website plus mobile apps, plus, you know, in real world interaction to text message, chat, phone, call Twitter, a whatever, you know, it's >>Like, it's like, they're playing checkers in web two and you're talking 3d chess. <laugh>, I mean, there's a level, there's a huge gap between what's coming. And this is kind of interesting because now you mentioned, you know, uh, machine learning and data, and AI is gonna factor into all this. You mentioned, uh, you know, rock set. One of your portfolios has under the hood, you know, open source and then use proprietary data and cloud. Okay. That's a configuration, that's an architecture, right? So architecture will be important in terms of how companies posture in this market, cuz MarTech is ripe for innovation because it's based on these old technologies, but there's tons of workflows, but you gotta have the data. Right. And so if I have the best journey map from a client that goes to a website, but then they go and they do something in the organic or somewhere else. If I don't have that, what good is it? It's like a blind spot. >>Correct. So I think you're seeing folks with the data BS, snowflake or data bricks, or an Amazon that S three say, Hey, come to my data cloud. Right. Which, you know, Snowflake's advertising, Amazon will say the data cloud is S3 because all your data exists there anyway. So you just, you know, live on S3 data. Bricks will say, S3 is great, but only use Amazon tools use data bricks. Right. And then, but on top of that, but then you had our SaaS companies like Oracle, Salesforce, whoever, and say, you know, use our qua Marketo, exact target, you know, application as a system record. And so I think you're gonna have a battle between, do I just work my data in S3 or where my data exists or gonna work my data, some other application, like a Marketo Ella cloud Z target, um, or, you know, it could be a Twilio segment, right. Was combination. So you'll have this battle between these, these, these giants in the cloud, easy, the castles, right. Versus, uh, the, the, the, the contenders or the, or the challengers as we call >>'em. Well, great. Always chat with the other. We always talk about castles in the cloud, which is your work that you guys put out, just an update on. So check out greylock.com. They have castles on the cloud, which is a great thesis on and a map by the way ecosystem. So you guys do a really good job props to Jerry and the team over at Greylock. Um, okay. Now I gotta ask kind of like the VC private equity sure. Market question, you know, evaluations. Uh, first of all, I think it's a great time to do a startup. So it's a good time to be in the VC business. I think the next two years, you're gonna find some nice gems, but also you gotta have that cleansing period. You got a lot of overvaluation. So what happened with the markets? So there's gonna be a lot of M and a. So the question is what are some of the things that you see as challenges for product teams in particular that might have that killer answer in MarTech, or might not have the runway if there's no cash, um, how do people partner in this modern era, cuz scale's a big deal, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> you can measure everything. So you get the combination of a, a new kind of M and a market coming, a potential growth market for the right solution. Again, value's gotta be be there. What's your take on this market? >>I, I, I think you're right. Either you need runway, so cash to make it through, through this next, you know, two, three years, whatever you think the market Turmo is or two, you need scale, right? So if you're at a company of scale and you have enough data, you can probably succeed on your own. If not, if you're kind of in between or early to your point, either one focus, a narrower wedge, John, just like we say, just reduce the surface area. And next two years focus on solving one problem. Very, very well, or number two in this MarTech space, especially there's a lot of partnership and integration opportunities to create a complete solution together, to compete against kind of the incumbents. Right? So I think they're folks with the data, they're folks doing data, privacy, security, they're post focusing their workflow or marketing workflows. You're gonna see either one, um, some M and a, but I definitely can see a lot of Coopers in partnership. And so in the past, maybe you would say, I'm just raise another a hundred million dollars and do what you're doing today. You might say, look, instead of raising more money let's partner together or, or merge or find a solution. So I think people are gonna get creative. Yeah. Like said scarcity often is good. Yeah. I think forces a lot more focus and a lot more creativity. >>Yeah. That's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up up. Cause I didn't think you were gonna go there. I was gonna ask that biz dev activity is going to be really fundamental because runway combined with the fact that, Hey, you know, if you know, get real or you're gonna go under is a real issue. So now people become friends. They're like, okay, if we partner, um, it's clearly a good way to go if you can get there. So what advice would you give companies? Um, even most experienced, uh, founders and operators. This is a different market, right? It's a different kind of velocity, obviously architectural data. You mentioned some of those key things. What's the posture to partner. What's your advice? What's the combat man manual to kind of compete in this new biz dev world where some it's a make or break time, either get the funding, get the customers, which is how you get funding or you get a biz dev deal where you combine forces, uh, go to market together or not. What's your advice? >>I, I think that the combat manual is either you're partnering for one or two things, either one technology or two customers or sometimes both. So it would say which partnerships, youre doing for technology EG solution completers. Like you have, you know, this puzzle piece, I have this puzzle piece data and data privacy and let's work together. Um, or number two is like, who can help you with customers? And that's either a, I, they can be channel for you or, or vice versa or can share customers and you can actually go to market together and find customers jointly. So ideally you're partner for one, if not the other, sometimes both. And just figure out where in your life cycle do you need? Um, friends. >>Yeah. Great. My final question, Jerry, first of all, thanks for coming on and sharing your in insight as usual. Always. Awesome final question for the folks watching that are gonna be partnering and buying product and services from these startups. Um, there's a select few great ones here and obviously every other episode as well, and you've got a bunch you're investing in this, it's actually a good market for the ones that are lean companies that are lean and mean have value. And the cloud scale does provide that. So a lot of companies are getting it right, they're gonna break through. So they're clearly gonna be getting customers the buyer side, how should they be looking through the lens right now and looking at companies, what should they look for? Um, and they like to take chances with seeing that. So it's not so much, they gotta be vetted, but you know, how do they know the winners from the pretenders? >>You know, I, I think the customers are always smart. I think in the, in the, in the past in market market tech, especially they often had a budget to experiment with. I think you're looking now the customers, the buyer technologies are looking for a hard ROI, like a return on investment. And before think they might experiment more, but now they're saying, Hey, are you gonna help me save money or increase revenue or some hardcore metric that they care about? So I think, um, the startups that actually have a strong ROI, like save money or increased revenue and can like point empirically how they do that will, will, you know, rise to the top of, of the MarTech landscape. And customers will see that they're they're, the customers are smart, right? They're savvy buyers. They, they, they, they, they can smell good from bad and they're gonna see the strong >>ROI. Yeah. And the other thing too, I like to point out, I'd love to get your reaction real quick is a lot of the companies have DNA, any open source or they have some community track record where communities now, part of the vetting. I mean, are they real good people? >>Yeah. I, I think open stores, like you said, in the community in general, like especially all these communities that move on slack or discord or something else. Right. I think for sure, just going through all those forums, slack communities or discord communities, you can see what's a good product versus next versus bad. Don't go to like the other sites. These communities would tell you who's working. >>Well, we got a discord channel on the cube now had 14,000 members. Now it's down to six, losing people left and right. We need a moderator, um, to get on. If you know anyone on discord, anyone watching wants to volunteer to be the cube discord, moderator. Uh, we could use some help there. Love discord. Uh, Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. What's new at Greylock. What's some of the things happening. Give a quick plug for the firm. When you guys working on, I know there's been some cool things happening, new investments, people moving. >>Yeah. Look we're we're Greylock partners, seed series a firm. I focus at enterprise software. I have a team with me that also does consumer investing as well as crypto investing like all firms. So, but we're we're seed series a occasionally later stage growth. So if you're interested, uh, FA me@jkontwitterorjgreylock.com. Thank you, John. >>Great stuff, Jerry. Thanks for coming on. This is the Cube's presentation of the, a startup showcase. MarTech is the series this time, emerging cloud scale customer experience where the integration and the data matters. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the hottest cloud startups from the ADWS ecosystem. Um, John farrier, thanks for watching.

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by UI path. >>Welcome back to the Bellagio and Las Vegas. The cube is live. I love saying I'm going to say again and again, the cube is live. We are a UI path forward for, at an in-person conference. Lisa Martin, with Dave Volante. We're going to be talking about the vision of the UI path platform. We're very excited to welcome to the program. Ted kart, the executive vice president of products and engineering at UI path, Ted, welcome to the program. >>Thank you. It's great to be here with you and it's, it is great to be live. It's been so fun over the last couple of days to spend time with our customers. Uh, it's just been so great for the team and everyone, >>I can imagine what it was like for you yesterday on main stage, looking out to a standing room, only crowd for the first time in probably 20 months. >>Yeah. And that was, that was actually quite fun. As, you know, speaking to a camera, you just don't get the same energy. You got to muster all of the energy yourself. And so it was so great just to be back in front of, uh, uh, live people again, humans. >>Exactly. Well, from a customer perspective, I know that the number is now over 9,000, you guys have an incredibly high retention rate. We're talking 96 plus percent. A significant portion of revenue comes from those existing customers. We talked to a whole bunch of em yesterday. We've got more of them on today. We're hearing that validation from the voice of the customer on what UI path has been doing. Talk to us about the vision that you unveiled yesterday, strategically, what some of the feedback has been from some of those folks that are here in person. >>Great. Well, so let's start the story by looking back first and talking about the phases of the market. Uh, because I really see us entering phase three of the automation market. Uh, phase one I describe is the core RPA platform. Uh, and that was, you know, the elements of that are the runtime, the robot, the thing that knows how to execute these workflows, it knows how to do UI automation. It knows how to do API integration. It knows how to do long running workflows and interact with humans, developer experiences, low code visual developer experiences. Plus the orchestration then that that gives the enterprises, the manageability and the governance. I'd say that was phase one. Okay. Daniel and the team. Then at forward three, the last this community got together right here, the Bellagio I at the end of 2019 rolled out an expanded vision, which we talk about as the platform for the full automation life cycle and that Ella added elements of let's let's help end users engage more easily with their automations. >>They engage with them on their desktop. So they need to think of it like a start menu, like experience with the UI path assistant, they need rich user interfaces. So we introduced a low code application platform, UI path apps. They want to interact with natural language. So we integrate with chat bots. And then we find a lot of customers. When we initially start their journey, they have a lot of knowledge right away of opportunities. They see things in the call center, front office, back office, finance department, they see things to do, but then they say help us find more opportunities to automate. So we have this old discovery area to help them find more opportunities to automate. So this vision of this end to end life cycle, that that covers the core platform plus engagement in discovery. That's the journey we've been on over the last two years. >>And I think, you know, part of what we talked about yesterday was just how we're continuing to fulfill that vision. And then that set the stage for us to talk about a few innovation themes. As we look forward to two phase three, that I would emphasize, we still, we're still building out this end to end automation platform covering the full life cycle, but we do see some pretty important themes going forward. Well, we'll start with four, um, kind of four key themes. Um, one is enterprise grade platform. Uh, the second is, uh, platform expansion, you know, healthy platforms grow and expand what you're able to do with them. What developers are able to build for the notion that discovery becomes more continuous. I liken it to a nervous system for the processes and the work of the enterprise. It's always there watching, helping you find opportunities. Um, and then we talked about this last concept, which is semantic automation, which is the, I'd say the real big idea in the forward-looking vision. >>I wonder if we could, um, and your keynote yesterday, you talked about the fragmentation of the enterprise software business and of course perpetuate advice, the SAS easy button. Great. I got all these different SAS products and you're sort of creating a layer across them. Sort of a couple of questions there. Maybe you could just sort of describe that dynamic and how you guys think about it. And then I got to follow up. >>Yeah. I think if you're a historian, you look back and say in the past a lot of business process centered around the deployment of a few monolithic applications, your ERP, your CRM system. And then if somebody in another department wanted something different, another part of the process you might customize or deploy an ad-on. Now what's great about the SAS era is we have a lot more solutions that are now purpose-built toward a lot more functions. A lot more processes are being automated and that's fantastic, but what's that done is it's expanded the landscape of applications now than enterprises hold typically. And that's where you get to the issue of fragmentation. And the reality is, is the real work in the enterprise. The real work people do every day and the process, it, it spans all of that stuff. And I think as an end user, you can, you resonate with this because you will work with desktop apps. >>You will work with these SAS apps. You'll work with these line of business apps. You'll, you'll have to navigate to this one, cut some data, you know, copy it, paste it over here, you'll work in Excel. You'll send an email and you know, that type of work, nobody really wants to do that. And especially if it's something you have to do all the time. So automation, we are, in fact, not the first platform to walk in the enterprises door and say, Hey, we can help you integrate your systems. We can help you automate business process. This is, is, uh, you know, this goes back to the early two thousands and the arrival of, you know, the, the first-generation integration prod products. So what's so different about RPA and these automation platforms and our automation platform. The difference is really being centered on UI automation, because it's got three key attributes that I think are super important to understanding why this is such a different phenomenon. >>The first is because it, it automates via the UI. It can capture the actual work people are doing so we can emulate the actual work people are doing that's number one and that's critically important. Uh, the second thing is it can reach anything your way. If you've got an integration problem, you don't want connectivity to 82% of your systems. You actually want to cover everything you need to, you need to cover. And UI automation can reach anything that has a user interface. Uh, and then the third thing is because it it's emulating the work people do. It's very intuitive to develop for and as such. The developer experience is a very easy to use. Uh, don't require traditional coding skills. Customers tell us that unleashes more capacity and they get really fast time to value and that's kind of a win-win win. And the interesting thing then is if you think about it, the business wants to move forward at a certain rate, but that applications estate is only going to move forward. It's going to move forward kind of at its own pace as well. And this automation layer can really deal with the sheer between that. It can help you move forward quickly up here while you're waiting for, you know, at this layer to evolve as well. Uh, >>I wonder if you've mentioned, you know, kind of history, if you look back and, and, and, and you're somebody who spent two decades plus, you know, one of the great software companies, if you think about the great software companies, Microsoft, we know how they got there with the PC ascendancy and then took it to new levels. Oracle SAP, Salesforce is vying to become a next great software company. Go. McDermott wants to take service now in that realm. And I have a sense that with your vision of a fully automated enterprise, you guys could aspire to be a next great software company. I think, you know, you're, you're, you're humble, but you're bold. So when somebody who has a historical perspective on great software companies, what do you, what does it take architecturally specifically to be that next great software company? >>Well, it's a great question. Uh, you know, I, I said yesterday to the audience that, you know, the reason I came to UI path is because I do believe this is one of the most significant platforms of this time. And I do believe as we just talked about it's UI automation is the central element. That's really making it different. Now, all these other technologies and capabilities are super important. Uh, we announced yesterday a new service in our platform called the UI path integration service. Uh, we acquired a company named cloud elements six months ago, uh, an API integration company. And that is now landing in the UI path integration service. Uh, we have always had API integration as a part of our platform, but now we've got this richer catalog, we've got new services for developers, and that only expands what they're able to do. >>Um, and, and as we talked about the themes, the future themes of innovation, we talked about this platform expansion, and I served as this historian, you know, healthy, vital platforms grow, and they grow on their own just naturally because there's always some adjacency where if I bring that in, I can enable my community to do something different. They can build something different. And so that was why, for instance, let's embrace more API integration surface area. Why did we enter low code application space? It it's because we thought there was a lot of power for our community to now be able to re build rich user experiences. Um, why did we bring AI and ML in as a first-class citizen with an ML ops platform? We're not trying to be a general hosting of bottles, but we want to make it easy for those skills to be used. >>So there is a thing just about just continuing to expand what you're able to do, but there's an important thing you gotta do as well is you got to stay true to your personas and your user community. So anytime we do this, we think, yes, we're bringing in API integration, but we're not trying to be an I-PASS. We're trying to serve our RPA developer community. And we have to be true to that developer experience and the thing that's made us special. So we really focus on landing it in an integrated way, really helps our community. Do, do you know, more and more with the platform >>You're seeding a new breed of developer, or maybe your ascendancy is coinciding with a new breed of developer. >>Let's say there's a general trend. And we, we labeled the general trend. Now, low code, no code, which I frankly think is this historian is, is just a new way. We're talking about the idea that we, you want to continue to simplify developer experiences. And if you do that, everybody likes it. And it does. It enable you to grow the pool of developers that you have. And in our case, there is a new, you know, this is, this is a large and growing discipline. If you looked on LinkedIn community of RPA developers, there are new personas, new jobs being built around this platform. Today, we have, we're blessed with a very, very large community of developers. This is a new piece of, yeah, I think those are the, those are the range we're talking about. Yes. Um, and it's amazing asset for us as well as we do new things. Uh, we've got community ways they can engage with community builds previews. It gives us a lot of expertise to tap, tap into is we're deciding to do new things, >>Ask how influential that large community is and the product direction roadmap, the vision execution, how influential is that >>They're immensely influential. And that, that goes from when we're early on and we're ideating, and we're talking to our customer advisory boards or customers one-to-one, or as features are starting to come out in community previews. Uh, customers are an instrumental part of that journey. I think that's, this is one of the things. If you spend any time with Daniel at all, uh, you'll understand how important customer centricity and true customer centricity is to him. Um, and I think that's, uh, I only joined the company 18 months ago, but I, I walked into a company that I really understood knew what that meant. The words are easy to say, but really being that and having customers shape who you became, I think that's something that the company has done actually quite well. >>The crowds CrowdStrike announcement was notable. Um, I'm interested in how you're integrating that. I know, you know, that's endpoint security. I know you've done a lot of work historically in identity access with zero and doing some deep integration there, or how should we be thinking about the CrowdStrike gets it's more than just a press release. It's it's, it's there's engineering going on there. What can you tell us? >>Yeah. Yeah. That's a very important thing for us. We, I talked about another one of the key innovation themes is enterprise grade platform. And that one might seem like, well, of course, he's going to say that, but we do want our customers to understand, we know this is a mission critical platform, and you know, now it's now integral to the work people do. It's integral to the process. If it ever fails them, that's a mission critical failure. Yeah. And so we were making deep investments like this. Um, this partnership had CrowdStrike is about delivering a solution that an endpoint protection solution that understands robots and they are not unique in that. Unfortunately, they are subject to a lot of the same forms of attacks that humans can be subject to. Um, and, but they're also unique and then need unique protection. And so, as we came together with CrowdStrike, one of the important elements for us was let's enable their, in this case, Falcon platform to understand robots and let's do it as a seamless part of that experience. >>And so there's a few elements we deliver together. They, they have a lightweight agent that gets deployed with a robot. Um, and then most importantly, we provide metadata. We provide data back to log information, back to CrowdStrike. So now a security analysts sitting in the Falcon console knows when there's an activity that's related to a robot versus related to a human. And then there's also specific mitigation actions that are relative to a robot. You may want to just block that instance of that automation from running again, or you might want to block all instances from running again. And so there's specific mitigation there specific, um, visibility we're providing to the security analyst, but then it's all done in a seamless way. The customer, when they have 2110, they have the latest Falcon release. There's no extra licensing. They just have those two products and it just works. >>How much was that accelerated the last year, 18 months we've seen the tremendous change in the security landscape. Um, ransomware has become a household word. Everybody knows about colonial pipeline. We're seeing so much activity there. It's a matter of when customers get hit, not if how much of the events of the last year have accelerated that partnership with CrowdStrike and how you're enabling RPA to be that protected asset that the organization needs to ensure >>It's protected. It'd be fantastic. If we ever got to a point where we felt like, you know, security was a solved problem and it won't ever be. Um, and, uh, you know, and this is why we felt like we needed a world-class, uh, company to partner with who's an expert in this landscape and they do their part. And we do our part. Um, that was why we took this approach because we know we're not going to build, we're not going to have and build that expertise. We know about robots. We know what we know about that side of thing. They understand security. And by working together, we can connect the dots and we can hear everything. They understand that we're never able to replicate. How unique is that, that, that sort of robot >>Optimized, you know, sort of security, >>Uh it's as far as I know, it's the industry's first solution. It's important to know that endpoint protection does provide protection for robots today. Sure. And all of them do, but it doesn't know about them. It can't tell the security analysts that was an action. A robot took versus a human. Um, and it doesn't know how to take specific mitigation steps. And that's the exciting thing to we've done here. So it's, to my knowledge, that's the first point security offering built for, as we say, the robot workforce. >>And so you bring engineering resources to, to create that value and, and, and collaborate with CrowdStrike. Yeah. >>Yeah. We, we both did work on both sides. It's, it's been a really fantastic partnership and it was great. We had a video from their chief product officer as a part of our discussion yesterday. It's been fantastic relationship and partners. >>So it's one of those tricky thing. I mean, that's IP that you're developing with cross at the same time, you know, you've nailed it, right. It's never going to be solved, but, but one of the ways in which we can counteract the adversaries who are extremely capable is sharing. So it was that IP that gets shared or is that IP that you keep for yourself? >>We're both doing what we do, their IPS, their IPR IPS, our IP. And so it's all, it's all good there. >>Focusing on your core competencies. Well, Ted, thank you for joining Dave and me today, talking about the vision where things are going, the excitement, the partnership expansion, a lot of that activity since the IPO, we appreciate your time today. >>Very exciting times. And then as I said at the open it's, it's great to be here with you. Great to be live. >>Great to be alive. Really is for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. We're live in Las Vegas with UI path forward for, at the Bellagio, Dave and I will be right back with our next guest.

>> Hi, and welcome to Data Cloud Catalyst, Women in Tech Round Table Panel Discussion. I am so excited to have three fantastic female executives with me today who have been driving transformation through data throughout their entire career. With me today is Lisa Davis, SVP and CIO of Blue Shield of California. We also have Nishita Henry, who is the Chief Innovation Officer at Deloitte and Theresa Briggs, who is on a variety of board of directors, including our own very own Snowflake. Welcome, ladies. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So I'm just going to dive right in. You all have really amazing careers and resumes behind you. I'm really curious, throughout your career, how have you seen the use of data evolve throughout your career? And, Lisa, I'm going to start with you. >> Thank you. Having been in technology my entire career, technology and data has really evolved from being the province of a few in an organization to frankly being critical to everyone's business outcomes. Now every business leader really needs to embrace data analytics and technology. We've been talking about digital transformation probably the last five, seven years, we've all talked about disrupt or be disrupted. At the core of that digital transformation is the use of data. Data and analytics that we derive insights from and actually improve our decision making by driving a differentiated experience and capability into market. So data has involved as being, I would say, almost tactical in some sense over my technology career, to really being a strategic asset of what we leverage personally in our own careers, but also what we must leverage as companies to drive a differentiated capability to experience and remain relative in the market today. >> Nishita, curious your take on how you've seen data evolve? >> Yeah, I agree with Lisa. It has definitely become the lifeblood of every business, right? It used to be that there were a few companies in the business of technology, every business is now a technology business. Every business is a data business. It is the way that they go to market, shape the market and serve their clients. Whether you're in construction, whether you're in retail, whether you're in healthcare it doesn't matter, right? Data is necessary for every business to survive and thrive. And I remember at the beginning of my career, data was always important but it was about storing data. It was about giving people individual reports, it was about supplying that data to one person or one business unit in silos. And it then evolved right over the course of time into integrating data and to saying, all right, how does one piece of data correlate to the other and how can I get insights out of that data? Now, let's go on to the point of how do I use that data to predict the future? How do I use that data to automate the future? How do I use that data not just for humans to make decisions, but for other machines to make decisions, right? Which is a big leap. And a big change in how we use data, how we analyze data and how we use it for insights in evolving our businesses. >> Yeah, it's really changed so tremendously just in the past five years. It's amazing. So Teresa, we've talked a lot about the Data Cloud, where do you think we're heading with that? And also, how can future leaders really guide their careers in data, especially in those jobs where we don't traditionally think of them in the data science space? Curious your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, well, since I'm on the Snowflake board, I'll talk a little bit about the Snowflake Data Cloud. Now we're getting your company's data out of the silos that exists all over your organization, we're bringing third party data in to combine with your own data, and we're wrapping a governance structure around it and feeding it out to your employees so that they can get their jobs done. And is as simple as that. I think we've all seen the pandemic accelerate the digitization of our work. And if you ever doubted the future of work is here, it is here. And companies are scrambling to catch up by providing the right amount of data, collaboration tools, workflow tools for their workers to get their jobs done. Now, it used to be as prior people have mentioned that in order to work with data you had to be a data scientist. But I was an auditor back in the day and we used to work on 16 columns spreadsheet. And now if you're an accounting major coming out of college joining an auditing firm, you have to be tech and data savvy because you're going to be extracting, manipulating, analyzing and auditing data, that massive amounts of data that sit in your client's IT systems. I'm on the board of Warby Parker, and you might think that their most valuable asset is their amazing frame collection, but it's actually their data, their 360 degree view of the customer. And so if you're a merchant or you're in strategy, or marketing or talent or the co-CEO, you're using data every day in your work. And so I think it's going to become a ubiquitous skill that anyone who's a knowledge worker has to be able to work with data. >> Yeah, I think it's just going to be organic to every role going forward in the industry. So Lisa, curious about your thoughts about Data Cloud, the future of it, and how people can really leverage it in their jobs from future leaders? >> Yeah, absolutely. Most enterprises today are, I would say, hybrid multi cloud enterprises. What does that mean? That means that we have data sitting on prem, we have data sitting in public clouds through software as a service applications, we have a data everywhere, most enterprises have data everywhere. Certainly those that have owned infrastructure or weren't born on the web. One of the areas that I love that Data Cloud is addressing is the area around data portability and mobility. Because I have data sitting in various locations through my enterprise, how do I aggregate that data to really drive meaningful insights out of that data to drive better business outcomes? And at Blue Shield of California, one of our key initiatives is what we call an experienced cube. What does that mean? It means how do I drive transparency of data between providers, members and payers? So that not only do I reduce overhead on providers and provide them a better experience, or hospital systems or doctors, but ultimately, how do we have the member have it their power of their fingertips the value of their data holistically, so that we're making better decisions about their health care? One of the things Teresa was talking about was the use of this data, and I would drive to data democratization. We got to put the power of data into the hands of everyone, not just data scientists. Yes, we need those data scientists to help us build AI models to really drive and tackle these tougher challenges and business problems that we may have in our environments. But everybody in the company, both on the IT side, both on the business side, really need to understand of how do we become a data insights driven enterprise. Put the power of the data into everyone's hands so that we can accelerate capabilities, right? And leverage that data to ultimately drive better business results. So as a leader, as a technology leader, part of our responsibility, our leadership is to help our companies do that. And that's really one of the exciting things that I'm doing in my role now at Blue Shield of California. >> Yeah, it's really, really exciting time. I want to shift gears a little bit and focus on women in tech. So I think in the past five to 10 years, there has been a lot of headway in this space. But the truth is women are still underrepresented in the tech space. So what can we do to attract more women into technology quite honestly. So Nishita, curious, what your thoughts are on that? >> Great question. And I am so passionate about this for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is I have two daughters of my own. And I know how important it is for women and young girls to actually start early in their love for technology, and data and all things digital, right? So I think it's one very important to start early, start an early education, building confidence of young girls that they can do this, showing them role models. We at Deloitte just partnered with Ella the Engineer to actually make comic books centered around young girls and boys in the early elementary age to talk about how heroes and tech solve everyday problems. And so really helping to get people's minds around tech is not just in the back office coding on a computer, tech is about solving problems together that help us as citizens, as customers, right? And as humanity. So I think that's important. I also think we have to expand that definition of tech, as we just said. It's not just about, right? Database design. It's not just about Java and Python coding, it's about design. It's about the human machine interfaces. It's about how do you use it to solve real problems and getting people to think in that kind of mindset makes it more attractive and exciting. And lastly, I'd say look, we have absolute imperative to get a diverse population of people, not just women, but minorities, those with other types of backgrounds, disabilities, etc involved. Because this data is being used to drive decision making, and if we are not all involved, right? In how that data makes decisions, it can lead to unnatural biases that no one intended but can happen just 'cause we haven't involved a diverse enough group of people around it. >> Absolutely. Lisa, curious about your thoughts on this. >> I agree with everything Nishita said. I've been passionate about this area, I think it starts with first we need more role models. We need more role models as women in these leadership roles throughout various sectors. And it really is it starts with us and helping to pull other women forward. So I think certainly, it's part of my responsibility, I think all of us as female executives that if you have a seat at the table to leverage that seat at the table to drive change, to bring more women forward, more diversity forward into the boardroom and into our executive suites. I also want to touch on a point Nishita made about women, we're the largest consumer group in the company yet we're consumers, but we're not builders. This is why it's so important that we start changing that perception of what tech is. And I agree that it starts with our young girls. We know the data shows that we lose our young girls by middle school. Very heavy peer pressure, it's not so cool to be smart, or do robotics, or be good at math and science. We start losing our girls in middle school. So they're not prepared when they go to high school and they're not taking those classes in order to major in the STEM fields in college. So we have to start the pipeline early with our girls. And then I also think it's a measure of what your boards are doing. What is the executive leadership and your goals around diversity and inclusion? How do we invite more diverse population to the decision making table? So it's really a combination of efforts. One of the things that certainly is concerning to me is during this pandemic, I think we're losing one in four women in the workforce now, because of all the demands that our families are having to navigate through this pandemic. The last statistic I saw in the last four months is we've lost 850,000 women in the workforce. This pipeline is critical to making that change in these leadership positions. >> Yeah, it's really a critical time. And now we're coming to the end of this conversation, I want to ask you Teresa, what would be a call to action to everyone listening, both men and women since its needs to be solved by everyone, to address the gender gap in the industry? >> I'd encourage each of you to become an active sponsor. Research shows that women and minorities are less likely to be sponsored than white men. Sponsorship is a much more active form than mentorship. Sponsorship involves helping someone identify career opportunities and actively advocating for them in those roles, opening your network, giving very candid feedback. And we need men to participate too. There are not enough women in tech to pull forward and sponsor the high potential women that are in our pipelines. And so we need you to be part of the solution. >> Nishita real quickly, what would be your call to action to everyone? >> I'd say look around your teams, see who's on them and make deliberate decisions about diversifying those teams. As positions open up, make sure that you have a diverse set of candidates, and make sure that there are women that are part of that team. And make sure that you are actually hiring and putting people into positions based on potential not just experience. >> And real quickly Lisa, will close it out with you, what would your call to action be? >> Well, it's hard to... What Nishita and what Teresa shared I think were very powerful actions. I think it starts with us. Taking action at our own table, making sure you're driving diverse panels and hiring, setting goals for the company. Having your board engaged and holding us accountable and driving to those goals, will help us all see a better outcome but with more women at the executive table and diverse populations. >> Great advice and great action for all of us to take. Thank you all so much for spending time with me today and talking about this really important issue. I really appreciate it. Stay with us.

>>Live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud, Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem March. >>Welcome back to the Cube here at Q. Khan Club native Khan, 2019 in San Diego, California Instrumental in my co host is Jon Cryer and first of all, happy to welcome back to the program. Diane Mueller, who is the technical of the tech lead of cloud native technology. I'm sorry. I'm getting the wrong That's director of community development Red Hat, because renew. Goodbye is the technical lead of cognitive technologies at in video game to the end of day one. I've got three days. I gotta make sure >>you get a little more Red Bull in the conversation. >>All right, well, there's definitely a lot of energy. Most people we don't even need Red Bull here because we're a day one. But Diane, we're going to start a day zero. So, you know, you know, you've got a good group of community of geeks when they're like Oh, yeah, let me fly in a day early and do like 1/2 day or full day of deep dives. There So the Red Hat team decided to bring everybody on a boat, I guess. >>Yeah. So, um, open ships Commons gathering for this coup con we hosted at on the inspiration Hornblower. We had about 560 people on a boat. I promised them that it wouldn't leave the dock, but we deal still have a little bit of that weight going on every time one of the big military boats came by. And so people were like a little, you know, by the end of the day, but from 8 a.m. in the morning till 8 p.m. In the evening, we just gathered had some amazing deep dives. There was unbelievable conversations onstage offstage on we had, ah, wonderful conversation with some of the new Dev ops folks that have just come on board. That's a metaphor for navigation and Coop gone. And and for events, you know, Andrew Cliche for John Willis, the inevitable Crispin Ella, who runs Open Innovation Labs, and J Bloom have all just formed the global Transformation Office. I love that title on dhe. They're gonna be helping Thio preach the gospel of Cultural Dev ops and agile transformation from a red hat office From now going on, there was a wonderful conversation. I felt privileged to actually get to moderate it and then just amazing people coming forward and sharing their stories. It was a great session. Steve Dake, who's with IBM doing all the SDO stuff? Did you know I've never seen SDO done so well, Deployment explains so well and all of the contents gonna be recorded and up on Aaron. We streamed it live on Facebook. But I'm still, like reeling from the amount of information overload. And I think that's the nice thing about doing a day zero event is that it's a smaller group of people. So we had 600 people register, but I think was 560 something. People show up and we got that facial recognition so that now when they're traveling through the hallways here with 12,000 other people, that go Oh, you were in the room. I met you there. And that's really the whole purpose for comments. Events? >>Yeah, I tell you, this is definitely one of those shows that it doesn't take long where I say, Hey, my brain is full. Can I go home. Now. You know I love your first impressions of Q Khan. Did you get to go to the day zero event And, uh, what sort of things have you been seeing? So >>I've been mostly I went to the lightning talks, which were amazing. Anything? Definitely. There. A number of shout outs to the GPU one, of course. Uh, friend in video. But I definitely enjoyed, for example, of the amazing D. M s one, the one about operators. And generally all of them were very high quality. >>Is this your first Q? Khan, >>I've been there. I've been a year. This is my third con. I've been accused in Europe in the past. Send you an >>old hat old hand at this. Well, before we get into the operator framework and I wanna love to dig into this, I just wanted to ask one more thought. Thought about open shift, Commons, The Commons in general, the relationship between open shift, the the offering. And then Okay, the comments and okay, D and then maybe the announcement about about Okay. Dee da da i o >>s. Oh, a couple of things happened yesterday. Yesterday we dropped. Okay, D for the Alfa release. So anyone who wants to test that out and try it out it's an all operators based a deployment of open shift, which is what open ship for is. It's all a slightly new architectural deployment methodology based on the operator framework, and we've been working very diligently. Thio populate operator hub dot io, which is where all of the upstream projects that have operators like the one that Reynolds has created for in the videos GP use are being hosted so that anyone could deploy them, whether on open shift or any kubernetes so that that dropped. And yesterday we dropped um, and announced Open Sourcing Quay as project quay dot io. So there's a lot of Io is going on here, but project dia dot io is, um, it's a fulfillment, really, of a commitment by Red Hat that whenever we do an acquisition and the poor folks have been their acquired by Cora West's and Cora Weston acquired by Red Hat in an IBM there. And so in the interim, they've been diligently working away to make the code available as open source. And that hit last week and, um, to some really interesting and users that are coming up and now looking forward to having them to contribute to that project as well. But I think the operator framework really has been a big thing that we've been really hearing, getting a lot of uptake on. It's been the new pattern for deploying applications or service is on getting things beyond just a basic install of a service on open shift or any kubernetes. And that's really where one of the exciting things yesterday on we were talking, you know, and I were talking about this earlier was that Exxon Mobil sent a data scientist to the open ship Commons, Audrey Resnick, who gave this amazing presentation about Jupiter Hub, deeper notebooks, deploying them and how like open shift and the advent of operators for things like GP use is really helping them enable data scientists to do their work. Because a lot of the stuff that data signs it's do is almost disposable. They'll run an experiment. Maybe they don't get the result they want, and then it just goes away, which is perfect for a kubernetes workload. But there are other things you need, like a Jeep use and work that video has been doing to enable that on open shift has been just really very helpful. And it was It was a great talk, but we were talking about it from the first day. Signs don't want to know anything about what's under the hood. They just want to run their experiments. So, >>you know, let's like to understand how you got involved in the creation of the operator. >>So generally, if we take a step back and look a bit at what we're trying to do is with a I am l and generally like EJ infrastructure and five G. We're seeing a lot of people. They're trying to build and run applications. Whether it's in data Center at the and we're trying to do here with this operator is to bring GPS to enterprise communities. And this is what we're working with. Red Hat. And this is where, for example, things like the op Agrestic A helps us a lot. So what we've built is this video Gee, few operator that space on the upper air sdk where it wants us to multiple phases to in the first space, for example, install all the components that a data scientist were generally a GPU cluster of might want to need. Whether it's the NVIDIA driver, the container runtime, the community's device again feast do is as you go on and build an infrastructure. You want to be able to have the automation that is here and, more importantly, the update part. So being able to update your different components, face three is generally being able to have a life cycle. So as you manage multiple machines, these are going to get into different states. Some of them are gonna fail, being able to get from these bad states to good states. How do you recover from them? It's super helpful. And then last one is monitoring, which is being able to actually given sites dr users. So the upper here is decay has helped us a lot here, just laying out these different state slips. And in a way, it's done the same thing as what we're trying to do for our customers. The different data scientists, which is basically get out of our way and allow us to focus on core business value. So the operator, who basically takes care of things that are pretty cool as an engineer I lost due to your election. But it doesn't really help me to focus on like my core business value. How do I do with the updates, >>you know? Can I step back one second, maybe go up a level? The problem here is that each physical machine has only ah limited number of NVIDIA. GPU is there and you've got a bunch of containers that maybe spawning on different machines. And so they have to figure out, Do I have a GPU? Can I grab one? And if I'm using it, I assume I have to reserve it and other people can't use and then I have to give it up. Is that is that the problem we're solving here? So this is >>a problem that we've worked with communities community so that like the whole resource management, it's something that is integrated almost first class, citizen in communities, being able to advertise the number of deep, use their your cluster and used and then being able to actually run or schedule these containers. The interesting components that were also recently added are, for example, the monitoring being able to see that a specific Jupiter notebook is using this much of GP utilization. So these air supercool like features that have been coming in the past two years in communities and which red hat has been super helpful, at least in these discussions pushing these different features forward so that we see better enterprise support. Yeah, >>I think the thing with with operators and the operator lifecycle management part of it is really trying to get to Day two. So lots of different methodologies, whether it's danceable or python or job or or UH, that's helm or anything else that can get you an insult of a service or an application or something. And in Stan, she ate it. But and the operator and we support all of that with SD case to help people. But what we're trying to do is bridge the to this day to stuff So Thea, you know, to get people to auto pilot, you know, and there's a whole capacity maturity model that if you go to operator hab dot io, you can see different operators are a different stages of the game. So it's been it's been interesting to work with people to see Theo ah ha moment when they realize Oh, I could do this and then I can walk away. And then if that pod that cluster dies, it'll just you know, I love the word automatically, but they, you know, it's really the goal is to help alleviate the hands on part of Day two and get more automation into the service's and applications we deploy >>right and when they when they this is created. Of course it works well with open shift, but it also works for any kubernetes >>correct operator. HAB Daddio. Everything in there runs on any kubernetes, and that's really the goal is to be ableto take stuff in a hybrid cloud model. You want to be able to run it anywhere you want, so we want people to be unable to do it anywhere. >>So if this really should be an enabler for everything that it's Vinny has been doing to be fully cloud native, Yes, >>I think completely arable here is this is a new attack. Of course, this is a bit there's a lot of complexity, and this is where we're working towards is reducing the complexity and making true that people there. Dan did that a scientist air machine learning engineers are able to focus on their core business. >>You watch all of the different service is in the different things that the data scientists are using. They don't I really want to know what's under under the hood. They would like to just open up a Jupiter Hub notebook, have everything there. They need, train their models, have them run. And then after they're done, they're done and it goes away. And hopefully they remember to turn off the Jeep, use in the woods or wherever it is, and they don't keep getting billed for it. But that's the real beauty of it is that they don't have to worry so much anymore about that. And we've got a whole nice life cycle with source to image or us to I. And they could just quickly build on deploy its been, you know, it's near and dear to my heart, the machine learning the eyesight of stuff. It is one of the more interesting, you know, it's the catchy thing, but the work was, but people are really doing it today, and it's been we had 23 weeks ago in San Francisco, we had a whole open ship comments gathering just on a I and ML and you know, it was amazing to hear. I think that's the most redeeming thing or most rewarding thing rather for people who are working on Kubernetes is to have the folks who are doing workloads come and say, Wow, you know, this is what we're doing because we don't get to see that all the time. And it was pretty amazing. And it's been, you know, makes it all worthwhile. So >>Diane Renaud, thank you so much for the update. Congratulations on the launch of the operators and look forward to hearing more in the future. >>All right >>to >>be here >>for John Troy runs to minimum. More coverage here from Q. Khan Club native Khan, 2019. Thanks for watching. Thank you.

>> from Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's three Cube covering M I T. Chief data officer and information quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Hi already. We're back in Cambridge, Massachusetts at the M I t. Chief data officer Information quality event. Hashtag m i t cdo i Q. And I'm David Dante. He's Paul Gillen. Day one of our two day coverage of this event. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Joe Caserta is here is the president of Caserta and Doug Laney, who is principal data strategist at Caserta, both Cube alarm guys. Great to see you again, Joe. What? Did you pick up this guy? How did that all came on here a couple of years ago? We had a great conversation. I read the book, Loved it. So congratulations. A nice pickup. >> We're very fortunate to have. >> Thanks. So I'm fortunate to be here, >> so Okay, well, what attracted you to Cassard? Oh, >> it's Joe's got a tremendous reputation. His his team of consultants has a great reputation. We both felt there was an opportunity to build some data strategy competency on top of that and leverage some of those in Phanom. Its ideas that I've been working on over the years. >> Great. Well, congratulations. And so, Joe, you and I have talked many times. And the reason I like talking because you know what's going on in the market place? You could you could siphon. What's riel? What's hype? So what do you see? It is the big trends in this data space, and then we'll get into it. Yeah, sure. Um, trends >> are chief data officer has been evolving over the last couple of years. You know, when we started doing this several years ago, there was just a handful of people, maybe 30 40 people. Now, there's 450 people here today, and it's been evolving. People are still trying to find their feet. Exactly what the chief date officers should be doing where they are in the hierarchy. Should they report to the c e o the C I O u the other CDO, which is a digital officer. So I think you know, hierarchically. That's still figuring it out politically. They're figuring it out, but technically also, they're still trying to figure it out. You know what's been happening over the past three years is the evolution of data going from traditional data warehousing and business intelligence. To get inside out of data just isn't working anymore. Eso evolving that moving it forward to more modern data engineering we've been doing for the past couple of years with quote unquote big data on That's not working anymore either, right? Because it's been evolving so fast. So now we're on, like, maybe Data three dato. And now we're talking about just pure automate everything. We have to automate everything. And we have to change your mindset from from having output of a data solution to an outcome to date a solution. And that's why I hired Doug, because way have to figure out not only had to get this data and look at it and analyze really had to monetize it, right? It's becoming a revenue stream for your business if you're doing it right and Doug is the leader in the industry, how to figure that >> you keep keep premise of your book was you gotta start valuing data and its fundamental you put forth a number of approaches and techniques and examples of companies doing that. Since you've published in phenomena Microsoft Apple, Amazon, Google and Facebook. Of the top five market value cos they've surpassed all the financial service is guys all ExxonMobil's and any manufacturer? Automobile makers? And what of a data companies, right? Absolutely. But intrinsically we know there's value their way any closer to the prescription that you put forth. >> Yeah, it's really no surprise and extra. We found that data companies have, ah, market to book value. That's nearly 33 times the market average, so Apple and others are much higher than that. But on average, if you look at the data product companies, they're valued much higher than other companies, probably because data can be reused in multiple ways. That's one of the core tenets of intra nomics is that Data's is non depleted ble regenerative, reusable asset and that companies that get that an architect of businesses based on those economics of information, um, can really perform well and not just data companies, but >> any company. That was a key takeaway of the book. The data doesn't conform to the laws of scarcity. Every says data is the new oil. It's like, No, it's not more valuable. So what are some examples in writing your book and customers that you work with. Where do you see Cos outside of these big data driven firms, breaking new ground and uses of data? I >> think the biggest opportunity is really not with the big giant Cos it's really with. Most of our most valuable clients are small companies with large volumes of data. You know if and the reason why they can remain small companies with large volumes of data is the thing that holds back the big giant enterprises is they have so much technical. Dad, it's very hard. They're like trying to, you know, raise the Titanic, right? You can't really. It's not agile enough. You need something that small and agile in order to pivot because it is changing so fast every time there's a solution created, it's obsolete. We have to greet the new solution on dhe when you have a big old processes. Big old technologies, big old mind sets on big old cultures. It's very hard to be agile. >> So is there no hope? I mean, the reason I ask the question was, What hope can you give some of these smokestack companies that they can become data centric? Yeah, What you >> see is that there was a There was a move to build big, monolithic data warehouses years ago and even Data Lakes. And what we find is that through the wealth of examples of companies that have benefited in significant ways from data and analytics, most of those solutions are very vocational. They're very functionally specific. They're not enterprise class, yada, yada, kind of kind of projects. They're focused on a particular business problem or monetizing or leveraging data in a very specific way, and they're generating millions of dollars of value. But again they tend to be very, very functionally specific. >> The other trend that we're seeing is also that the technology and the and the end result of what you're doing with your data is one thing. But really, in order to make that shift, if your big enterprises culture to really change all of the people within the organization to migrate from being a conventional wisdom run company to be a data really analytics driven company, and that takes a lot of change management, a lot of what we call data therapy way actually launched a new practice within the organization that Doug is actually and I are collaborating on to really mature because that is the next wave is really we figured out the data part. We figured out the technology part, but now it's the people part people. Part is really why we're not way ahead of where we even though we're way ahead of where we were a couple of years ago, we should be even further. Culturally, it's very, very challenging, and we need to address that head on. >> And that zeta skills issue that they're sort of locked into their existing skill sets and processes. Or is it? It's fear of the unknown what we're doing, you know? What about foam? Oh, yeah, Well, I mean, there are people >> jumping into bed to do this, right? So there is that part in an exciting part of it. But there's also just fear, you know, and fear of the unknown and, you know, part of what we're trying to do. And why were you trying Thio push Doug's book not for sales, but really just to share the knowledge and remove the mystery and let people see what they can actually do with this data? >> Yeah, it's more >> than just date illiteracy. So there's a lot of talk of the industry about data literacy programs and educating business people on the data and educating data people on the business. And that's obviously important. But what Joe is talking about is something bigger than that. It's really cultural, and it's something that is changed to the company's DNA. >> So where do you attack that problem? It doesn't have to go from the top down. You go into the middle. It has to >> be from the top down. It has to be. It has to be because my boss said to do it all right. >> Well, otherwise they well, they might do it. But the organization's because if you do, it >> is a grassroots movement on Lee. The folks who are excited, right? The foam of people, right? They're the ones who are gonna be excited. But they're going to evolve in adopt anyway, right? But it's the rest of the organization, and that needs to be a top down, Um, approach. >> It was interesting hearing this morning keynote speakers. You scored a throw on top down under the bus, but I had the same reaction is you can't do it without that executive buying. And of course, we defined, I guess in the session what that was. Amazon has an interesting concept for for any initiative, like every initiative that's funded has to have what they call a threaded leader. Another was some kind of And if they don't, if they don't have a threat of leader, there's like an incentive system tau dime on initiative. Kill it. It kind of forces top down. Yeah, you know, So >> when we interview our clients, we have a litmus test and the limits. It's kind of a ready in this test. Do you have the executive leadership to actually make this project successful? And in a lot of cases, they don't And you know, we'll have to say will call us when you're ready, you know, or because one of the challenges another part of the litmus test is this IittIe driven. If it's I t driven is gonna be very tough to get embraced by the rest of the business. So way need to really be able to have that executive leadership from the business to say this is something that we need >> to do to survive. Yeah, and, you know, with without the top down support. You could play small ball. But if you're playing the Yankees, you're gonna win one >> of the reasons why when it's I t driven, it's very challenging is because the people part right is a different budget from the i T budget. And when we start talking about data therapy, right and human resource is and training and education of just culture and data literacy, which is not necessary technical, that that becomes a challenge internally figuring out, like how to pay for Andi how to get it done with a corporate politics. >> So So the CDO crowd definitely parts of your book that they should be adopting because to me, there their main job is okay. How does data support the monetization of my organization? Raising revenue, cutting costs, improving productivity, saving lives. You call it value. And so that seems to be the starting point. At the same time. In this conference, you grew out of the ashes of back room information quality of the big data height, but exploded and have kind of gone full circle. So But I wonder, I mean, is the CDO crowd still focused on that monetization? Certainly I think we all agree they should be, but they're getting sucked back into a governance role. Can they do both, I guess, is >> my question. Well, governance has been, has been a big issue the past few years with all of the new compliance regulation and focus on on on ensuring compliance with them. But there's often a just a pendulum swing back, and I think there's a swing back to adding business value. And so we're seeing a lot of opportunities to help companies monetize their data broadly in a variety of ways. A CZ you mentioned not just in one way and, um, again those you need to be driven from the top. We have a process that we go through to generate ideas, and that's wonderful. Generating ideas. No is fairly straightforward enough. But then running them through kind of a feasibility government, starting with you have the executive support for that is a technology technologically feasible, managerially feasible, ethically feasible and so forth. So we kind of run them through that gauntlet next. >> One of my concerns is that chief data officer, the level of involvement that year he has in these digital initiatives again is digital initiative of Field of Dreams. Maybe it is. But everywhere you go the CEO is trying to get digital right, and it seems like the chief data officer is not necessarily front and center in those. Certainly a I projects, which are skunk works. But it's the chief digital officer that's driving it. So how how do you see in those roles playoff >> In the less panel that I've just spoken, very similar question was asked. And again, we're trying to figure out the hierarchy of where the CDO should live in an organization. Um, I find that the biggest place it fails typically is if it rolls up to a C I. O. Right. If you think the data is a technical issue, you're wrong, Right? Data is a business issue, Andi. I also think for any company to survive today, they have to have a digital presence. And so digital presence is so tightly coupled to data that I find the best success is when the chief date officer reports directly to the chief digital officer. Chief Digital officer has a vision for the user experience for the customer customers Ella to figure out. How do we get that customer engaged and that directly is dependent on insight. Right on analytics. You know, if the four of us were to open up, any application on our phone, even for the same product, would have four different experiences based on who we are, who are peers are what we bought in the past, that's all based on analytics. So the business application of the digital presence is tightly couple tow Analytics, which is driven by the chief state officer. >> That's the first time I've heard that. I think that's the right organizational structure. Did see did. JJ is going to be sort of the driver, right? The strategy. That's where the budget's gonna go and the chief date office is gonna have that supporting role that's vital. The enabler. Yeah, I think the chief data officer is a long term play. Well, we have a lot of cheap date officers. Still, 10 years from now, I think that >> data is not a fad. I think Data's just become more and more important. And will they ultimately leapfrog the chief digital officer and report to the CEO? Maybe someday, but for now, I think that's where they belong. >> You know what's company started managing their labor and workforce is as an actual asset, even though it's not a balance sheet. Asked for obvious reasons in the 19 sixties that gave rise to the chief human resource officer, which we still see today and his company start to recognize information as an asset, you need an executive leader to oversee and be responsible for that asset. >> Conceptually, it's always been data is an asset and a liability. And, you know, we've always thought about balancing terms. Your book sort of put forth a formula for actually formalizing. That's right. Do you think it's gonna happen our lifetime? What exactly clear on it, what you put forth in your book in terms of organizations actually valuing data specifically on the balance sheet. So that's >> an accounting question and one that you know that you leave to the accounting professionals. But there have been discussion papers published by the accounting standards bodies to discuss that issue. We're probably at least 10 years away, but I think respective weather data is that about what she'd asked or not. It's an imperative organizations to behave as if it is one >> that was your point it's probably not gonna happen, but you got a finger in terms that you can understand the value because it comes >> back to you can't manage what you don't measure and measuring the value of potential value or quality of your information. Or what day do you have your in a poor position to manage it like one. And if you're not manage like an asset, then you're really not probably able to leverage it like one. >> Give us a little commercial for I do want to say that I do >> think in our lifetime we will see it become an asset. There are lots of intangible assets that are on the books, intellectual property contracts. I think data that supports both of those things are equally is important. And they will they will see the light. >> Why are those five companies huge market cap winners, where they've surpassed all the evaluation >> of a business that the data that they have is considered right? So it should be part of >> the assets in the books. All right, we gotta wraps, But give us Give us the The Caserta Commercial. Well, concert is >> a consultancy that does essentially three things. We do data advisory work, which, which Doug is heading up. We do data architecture and strategy, and we also do just implementation of solutions. Everything from data engineering gate architecture and data science. >> Well, you made a good bet on data. Thanks for coming on, you guys. Great to see you again. Thank you. That's a wrap on day one, Paul. And I'll be back tomorrow for day two with the M I t cdo m I t cdo like you. Thanks for watching. We'll see them all.

live from Las Vegas it's the queue covering del technology's world 2019 on to you by del technologies and its ecosystem partners welcome back everyone to day two of the cubes live coverage of del technologies world here in Las Vegas at the sands Expo I'm your host Rebecca night along with my co-host stu minimun we have two guests for this segment we have Kunal Rove Allah he is the SVP software engineering Dell EMC and yet edie your your Dominion SVP product development Dell EMC thank you both so much for coming on the queue thank you thank you thank you so as we know customers are dealing with a tsunami of and apps this is what from Michael Dell from his words it is it is it is exceedingly complex there is so much to manage can you just lay the foundation and just tell our viewers what you're hearing from customers and the specific challenges they're facing I think customers have been pretty specific with us and they've been very consistent about it their business is being disrupted by digital transformation data is exploding and it's hard to manage and then on top of it they're they're working as hard as they can to cope with that growth best they can but that's often causing them unintended consequences in making things either less efficient or harder to manage in their data centers and in their operation so our job is and that and that those factors are making it difficult for them to realize that your benefit of all the data that they have so our job is to help them unlock all of that potential that's sort in their data alright so Kunal data protection got some good call outs in the keynote new brandings power protect can you walk us through you know what's new what to rebrand and you know what we should be taking away absolutely still so it's been an exciting morning already as you heard we've announced Dell EMC pulpit that software and Dell UMC power protect X 400 it is our new next-generation data management software platform and the new next-generation multi-dimensional data management appliance and with power protect we believe that it will help midsize and large enterprise organizations transform from what is traditionally been a traditional form of data protection - more of a data management space and their management solutions so that's what happens with power protect protect comes as you have heard in different form factors you can deploy it as a software or it can come as an appliance but it gives you the ability to set up policies and manage the data where you can create the backups you can create the restores and restore the data that you need at the same time have other use cases to help with data management problems that customers are running into today so as we know that the landscape is really changing there are new threats there are new requirements that companies need to abide by what are the sort of can you walk us through some of the specs of this and exactly what it does yeah absolutely so it is it is a based on a modern architecture it is software-defined and we see that a lot of the transformation that we're seeing in the industry is driving towards software-defined we do see that there is a need for data protection to reside closest to where the data is or where the application owners are so if you think of customers that have thought about data protection in the past is sometimes as an afterthought they've run into challenges when they've had incidents or they've lost data if you think about how do you best protect some of this data if you give the powers to the customers that are closest to the data or the data owners there's a good chance of success with data protection strategies so having self service driven architectures as well as capabilities to help with centralized IT management are key parts of what we do with power protect and then if you think about just the explosion of data that we've seen and the usage and the widespread usage of cloud it is cloud enabled multiple ways of using power protect in the cloud storing to the cloud clout hearing to the cloud so there are a lot of things that we can do with multi cloud environments that customers have as well as having simplicity of management so these are some of the key pillars that come together as you think about power protect software as well as the appliances yeah so I'm wondering if you can just bring us in a little bit cuz I look at the challenges out there we know one of the one of the biggest things in IT is nothing ever dies you know I've got old environments out there that I need to be able to manage that data protection layer is something that it you know it can sometimes be you have to be able to do it over time because it needs to work with so many different environment so I've got everything from you know boy my mainframe and you know my make legacy applications to the latest cloud native wonderful multi cloud things like you know we saw Microsoft up on stage talking about can you give us you know what you're hearing from customers what are they finally you know moving forward and how do you manage that breadth of you know data that you need to be able to deal with the diversity both of their workloads that are being protected in the environments and the distributed data centers that they have in the operational towns they have is tremendous that's why we have a portfolio products so we have a portfolio both in the software side as well as the appliance side that deal with the different challenges that they have whether it's on the edge with our virtual edition in in larger data centers with things like data domain and some of our data suite product a to protection suite products as well as in this modern data protection space and the new products that we're introducing today so we need they customers need diversity and how we protect their data and then they need different options for for how and where that they they do that anything specifically you know that you know is different now than it would have been five years ago when it talked about diversity of environments or media that they're working on we talked about tape earlier and one of the challenging things is we keep you know building new products that don't have some of these features because we think that's not where the markets going but even on our entry data domain appliance we just added tape capability to it because that's what customers feedback is they said even in the smallest case we still have a need for that in our in our environment all right so so 2019 is not the year that tape finally dies obviously there's not new tape probably being deployed but customers still have tape in their environment and they need a way to protect but also be able to access and leverage the data that's in their tapes we had a customer we're talking about big data and then they said you know the biggest data is on our tapes but it's locked up so we need a way to have accessibility for that data and bring it into our business and our transformation unlocking the data no matter where it resides whether it's on the tape whether it's on disk whether it's in the cloud no matter how far it is from where the applications are and being able to provide a solution that helps unlock the data bring it to where it is required and be but to use it again is acting a key part of what we're trying to solve I know that so many people are eager to memorialize tape but I what I'm trying to what I'm trying to think about is how are you talking with customers about these these things because there are there is sort of an unease with we've had data over here and we're not ready to migrate it over it this way and how are you sort of holding your customers hand and when walking them through these decisions I mean it's there's no cookie cutter answer because it is different for every organization so how do you help a customer think through these very big challenges I think one of the key parts of this is having conversations with the customers to think about what their objectives are what their standard objectives are for their environments now in certain cases we've seen customers that have governance or compliance requirements because of the industries that they play in one customer for example is talking about backups being required for 50 years so there are customers that have long term retention needs or situations where they want to have backups or data stored for different purposes as you think about what these s loz are and as you talk about the top two customers about what problems they want to solve defining what the solution is and how that solution helps them meet their SLA or meet their business objectives is a good way that customers understand what we can present and how we can help them and I think one thing I'd add is we can also approach it from a portfolio perspective so when we talk about solving their problems we don't need to talk about it just as data protection but as a portfolio so we can bring in VX rail discussion and power edge and different storage options and we can build them a solution that is encompassing all the different things that will really solve their problem yeah let's get underneath the covers here for a second you brought up some of the platform pieces what's the update on the appliance piece you know as that fits into the power project family yeah so we have an appliance instantiation that both is a hybrid so a combination of spending media and flash as well as in all flash appliance we needed and that was kind of one key tenant as having the performance options available at different cost points another option another requirement was scale out so we needed we have customers that need starting at a half to buy it or even a petabyte but we also have customers that want to start 6,400 TBS and and that's what our appliances allows not only to scale in place so they can buy one and then they can grow it in place or they can actually add nodes and scale out as another way to deal with the data the data explosion so I think the appliance is offering both this penomet and earlier software to find it is scale out and it has cloud you know coverage in that it's object aware it's loud aware and I think with the software platform that we build that integrates seamlessly with the appliance we have the ability to drive automation that helps with customers deployments as the environments continue to change one thing that's consistent with every customer that we speak to is that environments aren't stagnant they keep evolving they keep changing and it's not just an expansion of the environments but there are different types of workloads that come in there are different types of deployment models that they have and with the automation that we built-in it's easy for customers to use the automated policies to help with the data protection that we provide so let's talk about the data for a second you know one of the objectives I love you talking about how much data they have on tape they want to unlock that how much are you having conversation with the customer about the value of data and how important that is to their business and where you know your solution set really helps to be able to business unlock that value sure so I think it is very clear to us in all of our conversations that I think data is becoming the new currency I think data is the center of all of the decisions that are getting made within organizations identifying what the critical data is what the critical applications are where the data is important for continuous operations of a business in a lot of cases data is continuously required for all businesses now but what are some of the data what is some of the data that helps with the decision making that is required for businesses succeed is important so once there has been an identification of what this data is what the classification is for the data having different strategies to protect that data to help restore from that data backups is a critical part of what we have worked with customers yes not all data is created equal and then different different workloads DIF data needs a different strategy to make sure that it's weather well-protected it's resilient and accessible anything in the modern work workloads that are impacting you think kind of the a IML you know IOT type environment where there's a lot of data and when you talk about not data it's a very created equal it's like okay sometimes there's a lot of data but you know I don't necessarily want to spend as much on some of these classes data I want to be able to use them how does that fit into the discussion so as we think about how we built the architecture we build an architecture where there are services that help with collecting more data and more information that can help with decision making within the product if you think about different forms of modern data that is available whether it be containers whether it be applications that are residing on Prem more seamlessly transition to the cloud bringing the right amount of data back having analysis on that data and have been protected is critical so I think those are key key components of how we solve the data protection problem yeah that that and having patented industry-leading efficiency and data reduction technology - it's gonna cost money wherever you save the data but if we can optimize and reduce that provide a great total cost of ownership that's that's key for these customers is because a lot of a lot of it seems easy upfront but then long term those costs can escalate whether it's on Prem or in cloud and we have to make sure that they they maintain a good TCO and I think to add to that also the application owners understand their data better than anyone else does giving the power to the application owners on when they need to protect the data what they need to do with the data when they need to restore from that data is a critical part of driving success for the customers while we do that it is important that the central IT teams are able to enforce the compliance and governance across the entire environment as well whether it be existing workloads new workloads new applications but we want to provide the central IT team the ability to have that SLO driven compliance framework and that's what the platform presents as well I want to ask you to sort of look into the future a little bit and we're talking a lot about as you said there are companies organizations their data needs are not stagnant they are always changing that is really the one true constant of this technological world that we live in what do you think we're going to be talking about in 2020 and 20 20 25 when we heard from the keynote there's going to be enough data to fill the Empire State Building 13 times our change is just staggering in and of itself I mean what are some of the the things that organizations need to be thinking about to make sure that they are preparing for the future I think we talked a little bit about AI in ml I think integrating more and more of those technologies into the product so that they're they're making decisions and they're being smart without the user intervention and they're even understand the quality of service quality of data and making those decisions we integrated ml into the new appliance product to help one of the biggest challenges our customers face is managing the capacity and maintaining good d-do performance and we integrated ml in order to decide where to put that data both for capacity and performance I think we're gonna further see the integration of that technology on our end as well as the customers end all right so bring us on home power protected new branding new products I hear the power name I'm sure Jeff Clark's happy when we talk about you know getting alignment across the portfolio I've talked a lot of the other power groups this week you know what's your customers you know take away as to why this is different yet you know the comfort of the history and experience that EMC and Ella brought in this space for many years so it for all of us it's a very exciting announcement it is our new modern data management platform that we've launched with power protect you get the ease of the simplicity of deployment you get the full integrated start if you have the appliance deployment form factor if you have the flexibility with the software deployment that you need you have the ability to protect and do all of your data management use cases or drive the deer management use cases for critical workloads and I think that's the that's the key problem the customers are trying to solve it's also the platform that's built with our trusted architectures and it's built on on what we've we've done very well with the trusted architectures we built so I think with that power protect gives you from that customers will be able to use and will be able to expand the businesses in the future as well I think well said I think we saw in the demos today of the many of the storage products and data protection products you see a very consistent UX across those products and we want we want as can all was saying bringing the trusted technologies that we've had but bring them in a modern usable way and if you know a little bit about using a power edge or VX rail or an e CS product as soon as you get this new power protect product actually we've been bringing that technology to some of our other products it'll feel familiar and it'll be easy to use so that's a great note to end on Edie canal thank you so much for coming on with you thank you thank you we will have so much more coming up on day two of the cubes live coverage of Dell technologies world in just a little bit I'm Rebecca Knight force to minimun

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone live coverage here in San Francisco for the Cube, Google Cloud next twenty nineteen to show around Cloud, Google Cloud, I'm John Forest Do Minimum and Dave along. We've been here all week, three days of wall to wall coverage here on the floor with all the exhibitors. Write the mean all the action we've talked to all the thought leaders, Google executives, entrepreneurs, experts are in the cloud and around the ecosystem. Dave's stew wrapping up the wrap up segment. Kind of can I put the show to rest and look to next year and possibly Google summits. There's one in New York and some other shows we're looking to also cover. But if you look encapsulate the show, I want to get your guys reaction, too. What the main themes have been, we're seeing obviously anthems was the big news. That's the big deal. That's their platform. They want to bring all the connective tissue around data security and really on prim hybrid cloud multi cloud application modernization. Clearly, during my open source and enterprise developers, plus the ability to hybrid and multi cloud stew. Your thoughts on the show. >> Yeah. So, John, you know, when I first saw Antos, I was like, Well, this is CSP that they announced last year We were excited about that talk about things like Azure Stack and eight of us Outpost. But the more I learn about it, the more I understand it. It's more than just kind of g k e and a little bit of packaging here, Eric for David. I just interviewed a Google fellow and, you know, you expect the the Google Fellow to really be able to articulate, You know, the history of Google and the distributor architect doing is like we're going to enable cloud native. Of course, we always had that in the Google Cloud, but now we're going to make that easier for you to do that in your own environment. So when you're thinking about modernizing your applications, you know, I was a little bit tough on Google when I said, Oh, I hear a lot about lift and shift. Well, most customers can't lifted, shifted, not change, because then I'LL pull it back. It's too expensive, but if I could modernize wherever it makes the most sense. I talked to some customers here that said, Look, I need to kick the team and get it into the cloud And then I could modernize and start falling apart. But for someone customers, I can't move that. And they need to modernize it here and that Antos is the key enabler and therefore it's a good message, its extension of what they done with Cuba. Netease. That's a lot of other pieces here. But you know, I'm pretty impressed. >> They want to get your thoughts is one of things I'm seeing and, you know, in sports they wanna team, plays a game and wins. They call it a statement game. I think Google Cloud next twenty nineteen is a statement by Google saying, We're into the enterprise. We're not goingto waiver. We got hired Thomas Curry and mid savory. They're going to keep all the great talent. No one's believing. It's not like a new regime. Change came in. They're pivoting. They knows there's no pivot here. They put a stake in the ground saying we are going to invest in the clouds soon. DARPA Kai, the CEO of Google said that on stage of day one, they're clearly putting all the window dressing around enterprise with all the great phrases that we love. Digital transformation, data centric architecture, multi cloud hybrid monitors that applications They're invested, Dave. They are in it to play. They recognize that they're not gonna win right away because it's a long game. So Google clearly is playing the cards properly. They're saying, Look, if we're going to bring a lot of the table and this long time table, but we're in it to play and we're going to play well when invest. >> Yeah, I think it took a while for me to get there Stew, too. He is. I heard a lot about what Right we do get a global distributed infrastructure or we're doing the applications for digital transformation. We got industry specific solutions. Is what way d'Oh. Okay. Great. And I heard a lot of you know differentiators are unique value proposition. So, for civil, what I would have liked to hear it right up front was okay. We know that eighty percent of your workloads are on Prem. Well, guess what, and we're investing in scale and all that stuff, but We're the best at cloud native and and we're going to take and we have the tools and expertise. We're gonna bring those to you on your premises and show you how to get there. And then when you're ready, come to the cloud. If you're never ready, that's fine. But we're going to earn the right for your future business. Hey said that Stead that >> right way, the things we're wondering your business. But I don't think they can yet say were the best that cloud native and that I think that's that's still good self awareness studio for Google. >> I think they could say it now. Maybe it's debatable. >> I would debate that I do not think that Google is the best cloud native cloud at this point. I don't think they have the breath and depth Amazon has, but I don't think that that's the hard core stick in the ground. Because Cloud native is early cnc F, they're investing heavily in open source is a big bet that they're talking about. They got a lot more work to do but cloud needed. Still, it's still early because you said the workloads is still on premise for most of the enterprises, so we got plenty of time. The point is, if they had overplayed that card, I would have been more cautious. >> Well, I mean, Okay, fine, huh? Let's talk talk about that a little bit because it's new. It's Would you? Would you disagree that internally, Google's got the most sophisticated, the best cloud in the world internally, globally for Google. And they make that comment when they make that claim, right? That start there, we get the best cloud in the world. Yeah, >> well, I think it's got a great cloud, >> too. Okay, so there's stuff on there. I mean, they've got least got some credibility there, so I would have come from that position straight now. The other criticism I heard was where the numbers. Now, that doesn't bother me so much. How long did it take Amazon to show us the numbers? Nine years? I think so. Good. We'LL get there, it's clear it's growing. You look around here. There's what thirty thirty five thousand people don't know what was there last year. Twenty. Twenty five thousand. It's growing, it's growing nicely and the quality of the people is good. >> Here's what I'd say about Google Cloud Steward? Let's get your reaction. Sudhir has Bay said this. He's the director product. Mentioning about cloud fusion, he said This from a customer quote. Google's cloud is like an awesome highway, but I can't get my car on the road. So that's the on ramp. >> I can't get by giving car. Okay, so so this note about you Look at the >> technology from Spanner Cooper duties, which was founded inside Google. And they did that right. Big queries. Amazing. They have freaking amazing tech because they had to do it for Google. So I think that is a key strategy. And I, like other clouds that have come in and then died away, didn't have a lot of tech chops. So Cultural Shift is one of the big teams, but on ramping, getting people on board and the bed another source. I think there's a gestation period that's gives Google some time. I don't think they gotta have it overnight there some table stakes, but they're there checking the boxes just kind of grind it out. >> I mean, look, the critique has been for years is you know, Google's too smart for all of us. you know, way have love reading the papers and were really impressed with the technology. But the term you heard over and over again this week, we're going to meet customers where they are. And I I almost failed. They dialled it down a little too much here because I didn't have anything that I'm like. Wow, blown away. Like, you know, they had er's up on stage and it's like I'm used to seeing him flying out of a plane with a Google glass on his head. >> I was started by the way that was Google. I o like, you're >> gay. But, you know, you know, one of that's what you expect from a googol is you know, some of those pieces and there wasn't a G wow amazing moment for me, but the messaging solid, they absolutely you know, understanding or solving some real customer problems today and, you know, solid >> well and one hundred percent of the cloud providers now have a coherent and explainable hybrid on Prem strategy. You know, frankly, it's about time. I mean, they were denying that for a long time, and I think it's clear that's where the business is >> well to me. The big criteria on the cloud game is Do they have the global footprint? They do. Do they have the software at scale Check? Do they have the connective tissue to bring these disparity opportunity data services together Check working on it, continue to improve. And are they on the philosophy side of things? Meaning one of things that I am made Amazon really great. Wass they from day one. We're a P I center who will always has been part of web services. So they have that DNA. I think apogee is going to be the secret little dark horse. And all this is going to tell Signe because as a p, I become programmable. You saw Sisko of'em wear on stage. Can they build on ecosystem? Can they work with multiple vendors? Because the fact is, from our data and we've been reporting on this on silicon angle and Wiki bomb is that big enterprises and governments, whether it's a d, o. D. Or a big bank, are gonna have hundreds of cloud projects, hundreds of workloads that's going to require unique clouds selection criteria because you cannot separate real time data from software, and that's just the facts of the databases are moving all over the place. If I gotta work Lodi, any data? I gotta be agile with the data, but I then need a data plane to connect across other workload. So workload conversation, I don't think was front and center enough where workloads are for the key criteria. >> And still some of the message on where Google fits in that hybrid and multi cloud world is a little bit muddy to me. So how did they get, you know, on those in your data center? Well, it's a deep partnership with V m where, uh, you know, I heard some people here. It's like, Oh, well, the current Amazon VM wear deal, you know, is like up for renewal soon. It's like I don't see Veum Where an Amazon separating that Latino way. People engineering partnerships. We've heard directly from Andy Jazz sees talked about on the Cube how important that relationship is. S O Veum was going to play across all the cloud environment. But you know, where does Google, you know, really make their money? They're going to partner with all the open source companies. And you know, you're going to own your data. We're going to make sure the prophecies there. So is Dave Said the numbers and the business of how Google Khun start slow scaling and really growing the enterprise business beyond, you know, G sweets now, part of it. And we saw some of the android for enterprise, and they have lots of pieces, but the cloud revenue gets a little bit muddy like a Microsoft. So, you know, from the cloud piece itself, I'm not sure where you know they start gaining on a Microsoft or an Amazon today. >> Well, I think that they could gain ground, take territories. That said on on Day one, Jennifer Linds, demo of no code modification, migration of workloads. If that actually happens, that's going to be a critical piece of the pie that's going to move. Move the needle very quickly for at Google. But I >> want to get you >> guys take on surprises. What surprised you here at the show? What was something that you didn't expect happen? That was a surprise on a good way. To me, the big surprise is that the word customer was used a lot more here than ever before. Customer is the key to success in the enterprise, listening to customer and customer choice. That's the playbook from Amazon. You don't hear Andy Jassy or any other executive Amazon go three words without saying the word customer. If you had a tag cloud and be like customers, the biggest font here we've heard customer choice. That's been a big one for me. >> Surprises. I was going to say when you were asking that question to get to me. It was customer related as well. You know clearly when you in Amazon show it's just customer. Just get inundated with a cool injection of customers. It's very impressive, but you don't have that scale here. However, What did see is a lot of Fortune. One thousand company's senior people were here. Yeah, still kicking the tires but learning. And I think that usually leads to something. So I think Google's developing a lot of pipeline at this show that I think next year is going to translate. We had conversations John with companies that we can't mention on air, but they are seriously substantively looking at moving workloads into Google's Cloud Number one. Number two is if you look around here, Deloitte, Accenture at toes. You know, some of the biggest. I'd like to see more of those global s eyes, and I think you will. And that's where you're going to really start to see customers. >> Dave took the customer. I'll say partner. So we said in one of our analysis segments, that logo slides Good. But, you know, compare itto Microsoft or Amazon. It needs to quadruple where it is today. But in the conversations that I had from startups through some of those big logo's on here, partnering with Google is good for them and they're excited by it. And that's not necessarily the clay case for every one of the big cloud providers out there. >> All right, so a lot of multi cloud talk. I've said multi clouds all the rage, but it's really more a symptom of sort of multi vendor people going best of breed with different departments. Big news last night on Jet I John, I want to get your take. Google really wasn't I don't think ever in the running, but certainly, you know Amazon was the lead Oracle, IBM, Microsoft share the news in your analysis of that news. >> Well, yesterday there was news that the Department of Defense, this Jet I contract joint defense initiative that's going on joining the Price Defense Initiative system. The military cloud ten billion dollar contract was under a lot of It's the biggest story in Tech and DC in generations. It's the confluence of procurement being outdated. Clouds selection, one soul cloud for that workload, multi cloud across in the department and a lot of lost business, potentially for Oracle in IBM. So Amazon, Microsoft, Amazon, Webster's, Microsoft, Oracle and IBM. We're all fighting for this business. The incumbents IBM and Oracle. We're potentially at risk billions of dollars. So it's been a lot of dirty pool, so to speak, a lot of dirty politics, a lot of dirty smear campaigns going on, from Oracle to to Amazon to try to discredit them. So the D. O d. Oracle soothe d o d. Saying is unfair process conflict of interest? The D. O. D made a final selection. Amazon Web services and Microsoft are the final selections and basically kicking out Oracle and IBM at the process. So Oracle, IBM are out. Oracle's lawsuit's still pending that'LL probably be dismissed because Oracle tried three different times to claim conflict of interest. They tried to claim conflict of interest in. And where has three in my notes here July twenty eighteen, November twenty eighteen and April twenty nineteen. All three times competition has been not proven, and Oracle and IBM or out. The analysis here is, is that this proves what we've been saying on the Q and that is, is that you can have one cloud soul cloud for a workload. So the Department of Defense has hundreds of projects. But for the military project that ten billion dollar one Amazon or Microsoft, probably the Amazon to the front runner can serve that cloud. And that's the best architecture. That means that Microsoft will probably win the eight billion dollar contract of the D. O. E s contract for collaboration again. Soul Cloud Soul workload. This is the trendy. My analysis is that Oracle on IBM, mainly Oracle, knew that they were going to lose. They tried to do whatever it takes to kill the deal. And now the D. O. D. Has brought forward and their modernizing the application and all these lawsuits about procurement rules from nineteen eighty five all this trip wires, all these little nuances. This is a great win for the Department of Defense, and I think it is a tell sign for large enterprises because you could be multiple. You'd have multiple clouds, but you can have one cloud work on one workload. It could be a big monster workload like a ten billion dollar >> workload. >> There could be a small work. >> All the tech vendors want to eat it. The government trough, We know that. And so the why is this relevant? It's relevant to me because you're you're absolutely right for a particular set of workloads. Mission critical workloads, especially a single cloud, is going to be more cost effective, more secure, uh, higher availability, less complex. And that's really what the debate is here now is multi cloud gonna happen? Of course, for different workloads is going to be horses for courses. So multi cloud is a huge opportunity. Everybody's going after it stew uh, Google through its hat in the ring in a big way. We seem to have a couple of camps lining up and read. Had interesting, interesting leads in both camps. Kind of got the IBM redhead camp and of'em wear with now with Google Really interesting sort of chessboard matches going on? >> Yeah, absolutely. Every customer we talked to hear. There's no like, Oh, you know, I might be moving most of my stuff or even all of my stuff to the public cloud, but it is workload dependent, and that's how I'm choosing it. Google has some key strength. I took a little while to get the data and I and ML pieces that we know Google has some strength here. One of the questions I had coming into it Can they reclaim kind of that thought leadership space. I'd love to hear whether you guys think I think that was the case, but, you know, messaging point on good speed. You know T K has them talking to the Enterprise in a way that won't scare them away as to oh, geez, I'm not smart enough to work with Google so >> well, I think I think Google has to get enterprise compatible and they've been working really hard to do that, and they got it. Just grind it out. I said this on Tuesday. It's a grinding out game. They've got a got a fight to the trenches. We've got to get the check boxes, and this is what Amazon did that early on and helped them a lot. Google has been working hard, I think, their security angle with the from a device. I phoned the Android phone and onboard security at the edge is huge. I think data and Big Query and those kinds of on boarding tools is going to be a great accelerant. I think cloud code cloud Run Cloud build is a phenomenal construct. I think that's absolutely delivered Ella for friendly. If they can continue to serve the developer for the enterprise and make it easy to build and stand up applications that hit that sweet spot of the trend, which is the modernization of enterprise APS not develop, perhaps not like a startup started sort. Different styles are cloud born in the cloud enterprise that's gonna deal with legacy and all these compliance and all this risk. They could make that easy and make it Dev ops like That's a great check boxes. >> Just a quick note on that, because there was a lot of enterprise talk there. There's a nice group inside a Google, working with a lot of the startups, got to talk to a couple of the start up there, and Google's definitely company there looking to partner with. All >> right, guys, let's wrap this up. Google really leaning into the enterprise heavily. Obviously, they're not. They're not blinking. They're going to continue power forward thinking. I like the mojo they have here. They got a new CEO. We interviewed George Curry, and Thomas's brother Thomas couldn't make it on the Cube. He's super busy talking to customers were gonna get him on the cue soon, but you got a culture here. Google and the culture is innovation, and the cultures Dev ops. The culture's developed for the country's AP eyes D. That puts him in a good position, >> their thoughts. I mean, I've been saying for a decade I feel like a broken record. I said it so much. I stopped saying it that the marginal economics of the Cloud service providers who have scale are driving towards zero. In other words, the more volume they do, they're there. The cost of adding an extra customer goes down to zero, just like software. There's three companies in United States who have that scale Google, Amazon and Microsoft. Obviously some guys outside the U. S. And you look at the cap Ex numbers forty seven billion over the last three years by Google. Thirteen and a half billion year to date US data centers alone. It would take IBM three and a half years to spend that much on Affects Who take Oracle six years. Okay, they just do not have the marginal economics to compete. They'LL compete in other ways, but though these three are in it to win it this big market, they're trillion dollar market. There's enough room for each to carve out an opportunity and continue to grow for quite some time. Do >> and Google lining up their ecosystem of partners to help them get deep into the enterprise. Absolutely, There's good opportunity for Google to do a number of acquisitions. They have, you know, a big bank spend a lot of money not just on infrastructure, but all the partner engagements and definitely some acquisition to help them get there. Wouldn't be surprised if they, you know, made some nice acquisition to help them grow that enterprise. I am in a modern way way now that was mentioned to it was carrying twins could be back together, but sure, >> awesome stuff. Guys, I think my my final take is I've always said Google's the Dark Horse and the Cloud game. They don't have a lot of baggage like a lot of work to do, and they're they're working hard and they really bring in tech to the table that bringing that culture of innovation, they're there behind this. Opportunities for them to move the ball down the field in a big way. I think they can take territory and gain share quickly if global things follow the place. If those bets come home, this dark horse will be right up on number two really quickly. So great job. Wanna thank Google, Google's team Cool calms Team, Google's CMO and executive Thomas carrying for letting us come to the Cube. Bring the Cube here. Google's very co creation oriented. We appreciate the location. I want to thank Google one. Thanks to our sponsors about our sponsors, we wouldn't be here, so he city signal FX. We got net app. We got Saada. We got some great clients here supporting us. You, Fio. Thanks to our sponsors, they signal to the community they care and they support our programs. Our tenth year of Cube coverage at events one. Thank everyone for watching, listening, sharing hit us up on Twitter at Cube and also silken angle dot com. We now are adding on a new feature to our Cube, which is on silicon angle dot com special reports where we flow as many stories as it takes to get the truth out there. Get the story's right, of course. Used the cube and stream the data with you here on the Cube. We're here. Google Next in San Francisco. I'm John Faria student Min David Long. Thanks for watching.

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. Thank you for being on two. Very, >> very excited about what we have going on for those of you not familiar with that Ella Keira, and I'm going to say his name incorrectly. Look here. Is that correct? Had >> the care is right. Very good. Yes. Also, >> I've practiced that about nineteen times. Oh, the other night, and I can't feel like I get it wrong and is one of the more well rounded individuals I've come across. His work is awesome. Initially learned quite a bit about him from Chase Phelps, who we had on earlier, and that came through Moore from blood flow restriction training. I've had the pleasure of reading up on quite a bit, and his background is more than unique. Well, around his understatement and really excited have on, I call him one of the most unique individuals people need to know about, especially in the sports science sylph sports science world. He really encompasses quite a bit of just about every domain you could think about. So add Thank you for being on here if you don't mind giving a little bit of background and a bio about yourself. >> Thanks so much. You know, not to. Not to warn anybody, really. But it kind of started as a front line medic in the Army. Really? You know, the emphasis back then was a get people back toe action as soon as possible. So that was my mindset. I spent about eight years in an emergency department learning and training through them. I undergo interviews and exercise physiology from University of California. Davis. I love exercise science. I love exercise physiology. Yeah, started doing athletic training because my junior year in college, I was a Division one wrestler. Tor my a c l p c l N L C E o my strength coach, chiropractor, athletic trainer all the above. Help me get back rustling within four months with a brace at a pretty high level of visual. On level on guy was like, Well, I don't want to go to med school, but what I want to do is help other people recover from injury and get back to the activities that they love. And so I was kind of investigating. Try to figure out what I wanted to do, Really want to be an athletic trainer? We didn't realize how much or how little money they make, um And so I was kind of investigating some other things. Checked out physical therapy, dentistry. But I really wanted to be in the locker room. I wanted to have my own practice. I wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do and not sit on protocols and things like that because I don't think that exists. And so I chose chiropractic school. I went to chiropractic school, learned my manual therapy, my manual techniques, diagnosis, loved it, was able to get patients off the street, didn't have tto live and die by insurance and referrals, was able only to open my own clinic. And and about four years in I realized that I didn't really know very much. I knew howto adjust people, and you had to do a little bit soft tissue. But not really. We weren't taught that I felt like my exercise background and really dropped off because I wasn't doing a lot of strength conditioning anymore. And so I went back and got a phD in sports medicine and athletic training. I had a really big goal of publishing and trying to contribute to the literature, but also understanding the literature and how it applies to the clinical science and clinical practice and try to bridge the gap really, between science and in the clinic and love treating patients. I do it every single day. A lot of people think I don't cause I write so much education, but, like I'm still in my clinic right now, twelve hours a day in the last three days, because it's what I love to dio on DH. Then just for kicks and giggles, I went out and got an MBA, too, so I worked in a lot of different environments. Va Medical System, twenty four hour Fitness Corporate I've consulted for a lot of companies like rock tape. It was their medical director. Fisma no trigger point performance. Have done some research for Sarah Gun kind of been able to do a lot with the phD, which I love, but really, my home base is in the clinic in the trenches, helping people get better. In fact, >> activity. That's awesome. Yeah, Tio coming from athletic training back on athlete. So I myself play I. Smit played small Division three basketball, and I'm a certified athletic trainer as well, and it's the initial love you kind of fall into being in that realm, and that's who you typically work with and then realizing that maybe the hours and the practice that they do isn't fit for you and finding ways you can really get a little more hands on work. I took the sports scientists route. It sounds like you're out has been just about everything and all the above. So it's great to hear that because having that well rounded profile, we weren't athlete. Now you've been in the medical side of the street condition inside even the business development side. You really see all domains from different angles. Now I know you are the educational director for smart tools with their blood flow restriction training chase. How younger? Very highly, uh, about your protocols. I've listened to some of them. If you don't mind diving into a little bit, what exactly is blood flow restriction training and what are the potential benefits of it? >> Yeah, you know it is about two thousand fourteen. I got approached by smart tools. They had developed the only FDA listed or at that point of FDA approved instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization tools other people like to call it, you know, basically grass in or whatever. Andi was really intrigued with what their philosophy wass, which was Hey, we want to make things in the US We want to create jobs in the U. S. And and we want to create the highest quality product that also is affordable for the small clinic. Whereas before the options Ray, you know, three thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars here on DH. So I wrote education for smart tools because of that, and because I just blot. I just believed so much in keeping things here in the U. S. And providing jobs and things locally. Um, so that's really where this all started. And in about two thousand fifteen, my buddy Skylar Richards up FC Dallas he has of the MLS. Yes, the the the lowest lost game days in the MLS. And yeah, I mean, when you think about that and how hard that is such a long season, it's such a grind is the longest season in professional sports. You think? Well, what is he doing there? I mean, I really respect his work up there. And so, like, you know, we were working on a project together and how I was fortunate enough to meet him. And I just really got to pick his brand on a lot of stuff and things I was doing in the clinic. And what could I do? Be doing better. And then one day it just goes, you know, have you seen this be afar stuff? And I'm like, No, I have no idea. It's your idea about it. And so, as usual at the science geek that I am, I went and I went to med sports discus. And I was like, Holy crap, man, I can't even I can't even understand how many articles are out there regarding this already. And this is back to you in two thousand fifteen, two thousand sixteen. I was so used to, you know, going and looking up kinesiology, tape research and being really bad. And you gotta kind of apply. You gotta apply a lot of these products to research. That's really not that strong. This was not the case. And so I brought it to neck the CEO of startles. And like, Dude, we've really got a look at this because really, there's only one option, and I saw the parallels between what was happening with Instrument assisted where there wasn't very many options, but they were very, very expensive and what we could do now with another thing that I thought was amazing. And it wasn't a passive modality because I was super excited about because, you know, I had to become a corrective exercise specialist because I knew I didn't have enough time with people to cause to strengthen hypertrophy. But be afar allows me to do that. And so that's really where I kind of switched. My mind went well, I really need to start investigating this and so to answer your question. VFR is the brief and in tremendous occlusion of arterial and venous blood flow, using a tourniquet while exercising at low intensities or even at rest. And so what that means is we basically use it a medical grade tourniquet and restrict the amount of oxygen or blood flow into a limb while it's exercising and totally including Venus, return back to the heart. And what this does is the way that explains my patients. Is it essentially tricks your brain into thinking you're doing high intensity exercise. But you're not and you're protecting tissue and you don't cause any muscle damage that you normally would with high intensity exercise or even low intensity exercise the failure. And so it works perfectly for those people that we can't compromise tissue like for me in a rehab center. >> Gotcha. Yeah, no, it's It's a super interesting area, and it's something that I have dove into not nearly as much as you have. But you can see the benefits really steaming back from its origins right when it was Katsu train in Japan, made for older adults who couldn't really exercise that needed a fine way to induce hypertrophy now being used to help expedite the healing process being used in season after ah, difficult gamed and prove healing, or whether it's not for whether or not it's used to actually substitute a workout. When travel becomes too demanding, toe actually load the system now with B f ar, Are you getting in regards to hypertrophy similar adaptations? Hypertrophy wise. If you were to do be a far with a low low, say, twenty percent of your one right max, compared to something moderately heavier, >> yeah, or exceeds in the time frame. You know, true hypertrophy takes according to the literature, depending on what reference you're looking at at the minimum, twelve weeks, but more likely sixteen weeks. And you've got to train at least sixty five percent. Or you've got to take low intensity loads to find his twenty to thirty five percent of one read max all the way to failure, which we know causes damage to the tissue be a farce. Starts to show hypertrophy changes that we two. So you know, my my best. My so I this It's kind of embarrassing, but it is what it is. But like, you know, I started learning mother our stuff. I'm a earlier Dr. Right? So I go right away and I go by the first product, I can. I have zero idea what I'm doing there. Zero like and a former Mr America and Mr Olympia Former Mr America champion and the one of the youngest Mr Olympia Tze Hor Olympia Mr Olympia ever compete. He competed and hey didn't stand But anyway so high level bodybuilder Okay, whatever you us. But he was definitely Mr America. He comes into my clinic when I was in Denver, It was probably a neighbour of you at the time, and he and he's like, Okay, I got this pain in my in my tryst up. It's been there for six months. I haven't been able to lift this heavy. My my arm isn't his biggest driving me crazy, right? The bodybuilder, of course, is driving him crazy, so I measure it. He's a half inch difference on his involves side versus on uninvolved side. I diagnosed him with Try some tendinitis at zero idea what I'm doing and be a far. But I said, Listen, I want you to use these cuffs. I got to go to Europe. I gotta go lecture in Europe for a couple weeks and I want you two, three times a week. I want you to do three exercise. I like to use the TRX suspension trainer. I've done a lot of work with them, and I really respect their product and I love it for re up. So I said, Listen, I want you three exercises on the suspension trainer I want to do is try to do a bicep. I want to do some, you know, compound exercise, and in that case I gave, Melo wrote, Come back in two weeks. He comes back in the clinic. I remember her is involved. Side was a quarter of an inch larger than his uninvolved type, and he's like, Do, That's two weeks. I'm like, Dude, that's two weeks And he's like, This is crazy and I go, Yeah, I agree. And since then, I've been, like, bought it like it's for hypertrophy. It is unbelievable. You get people that come in and I've had, you know, like after my injury in college rustling I my a c l I've torn it three times. Now, you know, my quad atrophy was bad. My calf was not the same size, literally. Symmetry occurs so quickly. When you start applying these principles, um, it just blows me away. >> So when you're using it, are using it more and isolated manner or are doing more compound exercises. For example, if you're doing a C l artifically assuming they're back too full function ish, Are you doing bodyweight squads or that starting off with the extensions? How do you kind of progress that up program? >> Yeah, it really just depends on where they're at. Like, you know, day with a C l's. You can pretty much start if there's no contraindications, you convey. Stay docks. Start day one. I'm right after surgery to try to prevent as much of that quad wasting that we get from re perfusion, injury and reactive oxygen species. All the other things that occur to literally day one. You can start and you'LL start isolated. You might start with an isometric. I really do like to do isometrics early on in my in my rehab. Um, and you can use the cops and you can You can fatigue out all the motor units if they're not quite air yet. Like, let's say, pre surgically, where they can't use the lamb, they're in a they're either bedridden or they're in a brace or they're a cast. You can use it with electric stim and or a Russian stem. And with that contraction, not only did you drive growth hormone, but you can also prevent atrophy by up to ninety, ninety five percent so you can start early early on, and I like to call it like phases of injury, right? Like pre surgical or pre injury, right at injury, you kind of get into the sub acute phase of inflammation. You kind of progressed isolated exercises and he goingto isolated in compound and you going to compound in any kind of move through the gamut. What's so cool about the afar is you're not having to reinvent the wheel like you use the same protocols, even use. I mean, really. I mean, if you're using lightweight with sarabande or resistance to being which I do every day, I'd be a far on it. Now, instead of your brain thinking you're not doing anything, your brain's like whoa, high intensity exercise. Let's let's help this tissue recovered because it's got to get injured. So we're gonna grow. >> That's yeah, that's pretty amazing. I've used it myself. I do have my smart tools. I'm biased. I like what you're doing. I really like the fact that there's no cords. It's quite mobile, allows us to do sled pushes, resisted marches, whole wide span and movements on DH before we're kind of hopped on air here. You're talking about some of the nutritional interventions you add to that, whether it be vitamin C college in glucose to mean. What specifically are you putting together on DH? Why're you doing that? Is that for tissue healing? >> Yeah, that's right. It's way. Have ah, in my clinic were Multidisciplinary Clinic in Dallas, Texas, and called the Body Lounge is a shameless plug, but way really believe that healing has to start from the inside, that it has to start with the micro nutrients and then the macro nutrients. And then pretty much everything can be prevented and healed with nutrition and exercise. That's what we truly believe, and that's what we try to help people with. The only thing that I use manual therapy for and I do a lot of needling and all these other things is to help people get it down there. Pain down enough so that they can do more movement. And so, from a micro nutrient standpoint, we've gotta hit the things that are going to help with college and synthesis and protein sentences, So that would be protein supplementation that would be vitamin C. We do lots of hydration because most of us were walking around dehydrated. If you look at some of the studies looking at, you know, even with a normal diet, magnesium is deficient. Vitamin C is deficient during the winter all of us are vitamin D deficient Bluetooth. I own production starts, you know, basically go to kneel. So all those things we we will supplement either through I am injection intramuscular injection or through ivy >> and you guys take coral. Someone's on that, too for some of the good Earth ion for the violent de aspects are taking precursors in a c. Are you guys taking glue to file? >> We inject glorify on either in your inner, either in your i V or in in the I am. You know, with the literature supporting that you only absorb about five to ten percent of whatever aural supplementation you take. We try to we try to push it. I am arrive. And then in between sessions, yes, they would take Coral to try to maintain their levels. We do pre, you know, lab testing, prior lab testing after to make sure we're getting the absorption rate. But a lot of our people we already know they don't absorb B twelve vitamin, and so we've got to do it. Injectable. >> Yeah, Chef makes sense with the B f r itself. And when I get a couple of questions knocked out for I go too far off topic. I'm curious about some of these cellars swelling protocols and what that specifically is what's happening physiologically and how you implement that. >> Yeah, so South Swell Protocol, where we like to call a five by five protocol way. Use the tourniquet. It's in the upper extremity at fifty percent limb occlusion pressure at eighty percent limb occlusion pressure in the lower extremity. You keep him on for five minutes, and then you rest for three minutes, meaning I deflate the cuffs. But don't take them off, and then I re inflate it same pressure for five minutes and then deflate for three minutes. You're five on three off for five rounds, justified by five protocol. What's happening is that you're basically you're creating this swelling effect because, remember, there's no Venus return, so nothing is. But you're getting a small trickle in of fluid or blood into that limb. And so what happens is the extra Seiler's extra Styler swelling occurs. Our body is just dying for Homo stasis. The pressures increase, and there's also an osmotic uh, change, and the fluid gets pushed extra. Sara Lee into the muscle cell body starts to think that you're going to break those muscle cells. I think of it as like a gay. A za water balloon is a great analogy that I've heard. So the water balloon is starting to swell that muscle cell starts to swell. Your body thinks your brain thinks that those cells need to protect themselves or otherwise. They're going to break and cause a popped oh sis or die. And so the response is this whole cascade of the Mt. Horsey one, which is basically a pathway for protein synthesis. And that's why they think that you can maintain muscle size in in inactive muscle through the South Swell Protocol and then when we do this, also protocol. I also like to add either isometrics if I can or if they're in a cast at electric stim. I like to use the power dot that's my favorite or a Russian stim unit, and then you consent. Make the setting so that you're getting muscular. Contraction with that appears to drive growth forma, and it drives it about one and a half times high intensity exercise and up to three times more so than baseline. When we have a growth hormone spurt like that and we have enough vitamin C. It allows for college and synthesis. I like to call that a pool of healing. So whether you can or cannot exercise that limb that's injured if I can create that pool of healing systemically now I've got an environment that can heal. So I have zero excuse as a provider not to get people doing something to become, you know, healing faster, basically. And are you >> typically putting that at the end? If they were training? Or is that typically beginning? We're in this session I put in assuming that that is done in conjunction with other movements. Exercises? >> Yeah, so, like, let's say I have a cast on your right leg. You've got a fracture. I failed to mention also that it appears that the Afar also helps with bone healing. There's been a couple studies, Um, so if we could get this increased bone healing and I can't use that limb that I'm going to use the other lambs and I'm going to use your cardiovascular function, um, I'm going to use you know, you Let's say with that leg, I'LL do upper body or a commoner with cuffs on in order to train their cardiovascular systems that way. Maintain aerobic capacity while they're feeling for that leg, I will do crossover exercises, so I'll hit that opposite leg because something happens when I use the cuffs on my left leg. I get a neurological response on my right leg, and I and I maintain strength and I reduced the amount of atrophy that occurs. And it's, you know, it's all in neurological. So if I had an hour with somebody and I was trying to do the cell school protocol, I would probably do it first to make sure because it's a forty minute protocol. It is a long protocol. If you add up five, five minutes on three minutes off now, during the three minutes off, I could be soft tissue work. I can do other things toe help that person. Or I could just have an athletic tournament training room on a table, and they can learn to inflate and deflate on their own. It doesn't like it's not has to be supervised the whole time, and that's usually what they do in my office is I'LL put him in the I V Lounge and i'Ll just teach them how to inflate deflate and they just keep time. Uh and there, go ahead. I mean, interrupt my bowl. No, no, no, it's okay. And then I just hit other areas. So if I do have extra time, then I might Do you know another body pushing upper body pole? I might do, you know, whatever I can with whatever time I have. If you don't have that much time, then you do the best you can with the cells for protocol. And who study just came out that if you only do two rounds of that, you don't get the protein synthesis measured through M. Dorsey long. So a lot of times, people ask me what can I just do this twice and according to the literature looks like No, it's like you have to take it two five because you've got to get enough swelling to make it to make the brain think that you're gonna explode >> those muscle cells. >> Well, let me take a step back and trap process majority of that. So essentially, what you do with the seller swelling protocol is that you initiate initiating protein synthesis by basically tripping the body that those cells themselves are going to break down. And then when you add the message of the electrical muscular stimulation, you're getting the growth hormone response, the otherwise wouldn't. Is >> that correct? That's correct. So and go ahead. So imagine after a game, I just you know, I'm Skyler Richards. I just got done with my team. Were on the bus or on the airport, our airplane. My guys have just finished a match. You know, you're Fords have run seven miles at high intensity sprint. You think we have any muscle breakdown? Probably have a little bit of damage. They gotta play again in a few days, and I want to do things to help the recovery. Now I put them on with East M. They're not doing any exercise. There's just chilling there, just hanging out. But we're getting protein synthesis. We're getting growth hormone production. I give him some vitamin C supplementation. I give him some protein supplementation, and now not only do we have protein census, but we also have growth hormone in college, in formation in the presence of vitamin C. So that's where we kind of get into the recovery, which chase is doing a >> lot of work with and how much vitamin C are supplemented with, >> you know, really depends. I try to stick to ride around in a new patient. I won't go start off three thousand and I'LL go to five thousand milligrams. It will cause a little dirty pants if I can quote some of my mentors so I try to start them light and I'll move them up I'LL go with eyes ten thousand if I need it but typically stay in the three to five thousand range >> And are you having collagen with that as well? >> I personally don't but I think it would be a good idea if he did >> with some of that. I guess I really like the idea of using the B f R a zit on the opposite lake that's injured to increase cortical drive. So we're listeners who aren't familiar when you're training one limb yet a neurological phenomenon that occurs to increase performance in the other limb. And so what ends referred to if you had one lamb that was immobilizing couldn't function. If you use BF are on the other limb, you're able to stimulate, so it's higher type to voter units able have a cortical drive that near maximal intent, which is going to help, then increase the performance of the other leg that you also say that is promoting this positive adaptation environment is kind of hormonal. Malu I per se How long does that last for the presence of growth hormone? >> It looks like that the stimulation last somewhere between forty eight and seventy two hours. And so I think that that's why when they've done studies looking at doing the afar for strength of hypertrophy, you know, five days a week, compared to two to three days a week for two to three days a week, or just essentially equal to the five days a week. So I think it is long enough that if you do it like twice a week that you're going to get enough cross over >> cash it and you're using it two for the anthologies of effect. So what do you using Be fr yu have that temporary time period of time window where a need that might be bothering your doesn't irritate as much. And are you using that window than to train other exercise and movements while they have, ah, pain for emotion. >> Yeah, absolutely. So it's and I really can't explain it. It's, um we know from the science that it doesn't matter what type of exercise that we do. There is an animal Jesus effect. And that's why I emphasized so much with provider, especially manual therapists attend to think, Hey, you know, my my hands or my needles or my laser or my ultrasound or East them or whatever it is, is the healing driver. It's not the healing driver exercises a healing driver, and I know that's my opinion and people argue with me. But it's true. My hands are not nearly as important as getting people moving because of the energies that perfect and just overall health effects. With that said, the Afar has some sort of Anil Jesus effect that I can't explain now. Of course, we all know it's in the brain. There's something that goes on where you're able to reduce the pain level for up to forty five minutes and then I can train in that window. There is an overall ability to improve people's movement even longer than that, to what I find is that once I get people moving their tenancy just like inertia. Once you get to move in, it keeps moving. Same thing with people that I work with. They tend to get moving more in my clinic. They get confidence, then they end up moving more and more and more. And they get away from, um, being >> scared. Yeah, I know that. That's a great way to put it, because you do have that hesitation to move. And when you providing a stimulus that might ease some of the pain momentarily. I know there is some research out there. Look at Tanaka Thie, the ten apathy being like knee pain, essentially the layman's term kind way to put it. And they're doing it with, like the Metrodome in the background going Ping Ping ping. They're having that external stimulus that they focus on to help disassociate the brain and the knee and the pain. And this is something I can't top what chase and how he says. Yeah, we've been using, like you alluded to Thebe fr, too. Remove the presence of pain so they can do something. These exercises that they typically associate with pain in a pain for your way. >> Yeah, And then now that they're exercising now you get the additional Anil Jesus effect of the exercise itself. Says I'm like a double like a double lang >> Gotcha. Yeah, with blood flow restriction train because it does promote such an environment that really has an intense Jane court stimulus to the body where you get this type to five or stimulated high levels of lactate high levels of metabolite accumulation. I said she had paper about the possible use of bloodflow restriction trading cognitive performance has curious if you had a chance account dive into some of that. I love to hear some of your thoughts being that you have such asshole listed view of everything. >> Yeah, definitely. I think I didn't get a chance to look at it. I appreciate you sending that to me because I have to lecture and may on reaction times, and I was trying to figure out how I'm gonna like include the afar in this lecture at some point, not be totally, you know, inauthentic. But now I can. So I totally appreciate it. I know that there is, and I know that there's an additional benefit. I've seen it. I've worked with stroke patients, other types of people that I have auto, immune, disease, different types of conditions where I've used the Afar and their functional capacity improves over what their physical capacity is doing on. And so I am not surprised at what I'm seeing with that. And I've got to learn more about what other people are thinking. It was interesting what you sent me regarding the insulin growth factor one. We know that that's driven up much higher with the Afar compared to low intensity exercise and the relationship between that and cognitive function. So I've gotta dive deeper into it. I'm not definitely not a neuroscientists, You know, I'm like a pretty much floor if I p e teacher and, you know, just trying to get people moving. And I've gotta understand them more because there is a large association between that exercise component and future >> health, not just of muscles but also a brain. Yeah, >> one of things that I do work with a neurosurgeon and he's awesome. Dr. Chat Press Mac is extremely intelligent, and he saw the blood flow restriction trade as one those means to improve cognitive performance, and I didn't find the paper after he had talked about it. Well, the things that interested me was the fact that is this huge dresser, especially in a very controlled where typically, if you're going to get that level of demand on the body, you knew something very intense. So do something that is almost no stress, Feli controlled and then allowing yourself to maybe do some sort of dual processing tasks with its reaction time and reading for use in a diner vision board. Whether if you have a laser on your head, you have to walk in a straight line while keeping that laser dot on a specific screen. I'm excited to see how be afar material or just something other domains. Whether it is, you know, motor learning or reeducation ofthe movement or vestibular therapy. I think this has a very unique place to really stress the body physiologically without meeting to do something that requires lots of equipment for having someone run up and down with a heavy sled. I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts. I know you haven't had a huge opportunity dive into, but if I had a hand, you the the key to say Hey What do you see in the future for be fr in regards to not just the cognitive standpoint but ways you can use B a far outside of a physical training area. What kinds? Specific domains. You see it being utilised in >> we'LL definitely recovery. I love the fact of, you know, driving growth hormone and supplement incorrectly and letting people heal faster naturally. Ah, I think the ischemic preconditioning protocol is very underutilized and very not known very well, and he's skimming. Preconditioning is when we use one hundred percent occlusion either of the upper extremity or the lower extremity. We keep it on for five minutes and we do two rounds with a three minute rest in between. And I have used this to decrease pain and an athlete prior to going out and playing like a like a high level sport or doing plyometrics. We're doing other things where they're going to get muscle damage to that eye intensity exercise so you get the Anil Jesus effect around an injured tissue. But they really unique thing about the ischemic preconditioning is that it has been shown to reduce the amount of muscle damage that occurs due to the exercise. That's why they call it Preconditioning so we can utilize a prior to a game. We can use a prior to a plyometrics session. We can use it prior to a high intensity lifting session and reduce the amount of damage that occurs to the tissue. So we don't have such a long recovery time when we could continue to train at high levels. I think that that is probably the most exciting thing that I've seen. Absent of cognitive possibilities, I think it wise it on is I'd like to use with the lights. What do some lights? Teo, do some reaction time and do some, you know, memory training and things. And I love to torture my people and get them nice and tired. I think what's going to come around is all these mechanisms. They are what they are. But the true mechanism that I'm seeing is that fatigue is the primary factor. If I can fatigue you centrally and Aiken fatigue, you peripherally and the muscle that's for the adaptation occurs So although right now you know we always are on these. We have to use the specific sets and rats and weights and all these other things so true for the research, because we need to make it is homogenous as we can, but in clinic, if you're a patient, comes to me with a rotator cuff tear. I don't know what you're on, right, Max is for your external rotation. I've gotta guess. And so if I don't do exactly the right amount of weight, doesn't mean I'm not getting the benefit. Well, I'm telling you, anecdotally, that's not true. I just know that I have to take you to fatigue. And so if I'm off by a couple of wraps a big deal, I'm just not going to take you to failure. So I don't get the injury to the tissue that you normally would occur with lightweight to failure. I'm gonna get that fatigue factor. I'm going to get you to adapt, and I'm gonna get you bigger and stronger today than you were yesterday. That's the >> goal. Yeah, that's ah, that's a great way to put it because you're looking at again, you know, mechanisms in why things are occurring versus, you know, being stuck to literature. I have to use twenty percent. How do we find a way to fatigue this system and be fr being a component of that now, outside of blood flow research in train with your practice, it sounds It is quite holistic. Are there any specific areas that you see the other? That was other therapists other, You know, holistic environments could learn from outside of blood flow restriction training. What areas could they really? You know what advice such a safer that I would you give someone who's tried together holistic program to dive into outside of Sebi Afar? Is there any specific devices specific modalities supposed to specific means for a nutrition for that? >> I mean, if I was to try to put us you know what we're trying to dio. I would say that it's all about capacity versus demand. I want to try to maximize the capacity of the individual or the organism to exceed the demands that you're trying to apply to it. If we can do that, will keep you injury free will keep forming. If I allow those demands to exceed your capacity, you're going to get injured. So what can I do to maximize your capacity through nutrition, through exercise, through rest, through meditation, through prayer, through whatever that is through sleep? I think that that's really looking at the person as a whole. And if I can keep thinking about what are the demands that I'm applying? Teo, whatever tissue that is, and I can keep those demands just slightly below and try to increase the capacity, I'm going to get people better. And really, that's all I think about. Can that disk take how much pressure cannot take and what direction can I take it? Well, I'm gonna work at that direction and so we can do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and I try to really make it simple for myself versus Reliant on a modality or anything else in that matter. Really, it's It's really just thinking about how much How much can they How much can they tolerate? And I'm goingto put restrictions on you so that you don't exceed that capacities That way that tissue can heal. And if it can't and you know, maybe that's referral to you know, some of the surgeons are non surgical positions that I work with is they may be fail my treatment. Most people can improve their capacity. We've seen eighty five year olds, Not just me, I'm saying in the literature. Improve their strength through resistance training. Eighty five. The body will always adapt. Ware not weak beings were not fragile, Weaken De stressed and we need to be stressed and we need to be stressed until the day that you put me in the grave. Otherwise we will get Sir Compagnia and we will degrade and our brain will become mush. And I just want to go that way. And I want help as many people that have the same philosophy, whether I'm doing it, one on one with somebody from teaching others. I want them now The same philosophy, Tio >> well, that makes total sense. I love the idea of we need to continually stress ourselves because do you feel like as we age, we have a Smith or belief that we can't do more, but we can't do more because we stopped doing more? Not because we can't. I work with an individual who are hey, hip replacement. Ninety six years old. He came back and four months later was working out again. And that alone was enough evidence for me to realize that it's not necessarily about, Oh, as I get older, I have to be this and we kind of have that thought process. As we age, we do less so we start to do left but find ways to stress the system in a way that can handle it right to the idea. What is the capacity, like you said? And what is their ability to adapt? Are there any specific ways that you assess an individual's capacity to handle load? Is that a lot of subject of understanding who they are? Further any other metrics you using whether we sleep tracking H R V for anything in that domain? >> I have not really done a lot of a lot of that. It's more about, you know what they tell me they want to do. You know you want to come in and you want a lift. Your grandkid. Well, that's That's our That's our marker. You want to come in and you want to do the cross that open. Okay, well, that's your marker. You want to come in, you want to run a marathon. That's your marker. You know, we could always find markers either of activities of daily living or they could be something out there. That's that's that. That's a goal. You know, Never don't half marathon, and I want to do that. So those were really the markers that I use haven't gotten into a lot of the other things. My environment, you >> know? I mean, I would love to have ah, >> whole performance center and a research lab and all that stuff and then, you know, maybe someday that with what I have and what I work with, it's it's more about just what the person wants to do and what is something fun for them to do to keep them active and healthy and from, and that really becomes the marker. And if it's not enough, you know, somebody had a e r physician committee as well. You know, I walk, you know, twenty or thirty minutes and then I walked, you know, at work all day. And I'm like Did It's not enough. And I sent him some articles that looking at physiological adaptation to walking and he's like, Yeah, you're right, it's not enough that I'm like, you know, we're a minimalist. Were like Okay, well, this is the vitamin C you need in order to be healthy, not the recommendations are so you don't get scurvy. A lot is a big difference between, you know, fending off disease versus optimal health. I'm out for optimal health, So let's stress the system to the point where we're not injuring ourselves. But we are pushing ourselves because I think there's such a huge physiological and but also psychological benefit to that. >> Yeah, this that's a great way to put it riff. Ending off disease, right? We're not. Our health care system is not very proactive. You have to have something go wrong for your insurance to take care of it. It's very backwards. That's unfortunate. Then we would like to be like. It's a place where let's not look at micro nutrients and you what were putting in her body as a means to what he says you avoided and scurry. Well, let's look at it from way to actually function and function relative to our own capacity in our own goals. Um, with that, are you doing blood work? I'm assuming of some sort. Maybe. >> Yeah, we do. Labs. Teo, look, att. A variety of different things. We don't currently do Hormonal therapy. We've got some partners in town that do that. We decided we wanted to stay in our lane and, you know, really kind of stick to what we do. And so we refer out any hormonal deficiencies. Whether you need some testosterone growth hormone is from other things. Estrogen, progesterone, whatever s. So we're not doing that currently, and we don't see ourselves doing that because we have some great partners that you a much better job than we would ever do. So I'm also a big believer in stay in your lane, refer out, make friends do whatever is best for the patient of the client. Um, because there's that pays way more dividends them than trying to dio everything you know all announce. Unless you have it already in the house that has a specialty. Yeah. No, that >> makes sense to find a way to facilitate and where you can excel. Um >> and I >> know you got a lot of the time crunch here. We have the wrap it up here for people listening. Where can we find more out about yourself? Where can we listen to you? What social media's are you on and one of those handles >> So instagram I'm under just my name Ed. Look, terra e d l e c a r a Facebook. Same thing. Just Ed. Look era Twitter and la Cara. Everything's just under Everclear. Really? Every Tuesday I do would be a far I call it BF our Tuesday I do kind of a lunch and learn fifteen twenty minutes on either a research article or protocol. If I got a question that was asked of me, I'll answer it on DH. That's an ongoing webinar. Every Tuesday I teach live be If our course is pretty much all over the world, you can go to my website at like keira dot com or d m e on any of the social media handles, and I'LL be happy to respond. Or you could just call my client body Launch Park City's dot com and give me a call >> and you're doing educational stuff that's on the B Afar Tuesday and your webinars well are those sign up websites for those, And if so, is it under your website and look era dot com? >> Uh, that's a great point. I really should have it home there. It's if you go on my social media you you'LL see it was all announced that I'm doing No, you know, whatever topic is I try to be on organized on it. I will put a link on my website. My website's getting redone right now, and so I put a link on there for be If our Tuesday under I have >> a whole >> be fr. It's called B F, our master class. It's my online BF our course on underneath there I'LL put a link. Tio might be a far Tuesdays >> gadget. Is there anything you wanna selfishly promote? Cause guys, that is an amazing resource. Everything he's talking about it it's pretty much goal anyway, You can hear more about where you work out any projects, anything that you'd be wanting others to get into or listen to that you're working on that you see, working on the future or anything you just want to share. >> I'm always looking at, you know, teaching you no more courses like love teaching. I love, you know, doing live courses. Esso I currently teach to be if our course I teach the instrument assist. Of course. Programming. I teach a, uh, a cupping movement assessment and Fossen course. So any of those things you can see on my website where I'm gonna be next? We're doing some cool research on recovery with a pretty well known pretty, well known uh, brand which I hope we'll be able to announce at some point. It looks like the afar Mike increased oxygenation in muscle tissue even with the cuffs on. So it looks like it looks like from preliminary studies that the body adapts to the hypoxic environment and my increased oxygenation while the cuffs are on. I'll know more about that soon, but that's pretty exciting. I'Ll release that when I when I can you know? Other than that if I can help anybody else or help a friend that's in Dallas that wants to see me while I'm here. I practiced from seven. AM almost till seven. P. M. Every night on. I'm also happy to consult either Via Skype. Er, >> um, by phone. >> Gosh. And you smart tools use a dotcom. Correct for the CFR cuffs. >> Yeah, you can either. Go toe. Yeah, you can go to my side of you connect with me. If you want to get it, I can get you. Uh, we could probably do a promotional discount. And if you want to get some cups but smart tools plus dot com is is the mother ship where we're at a Cleveland our We're promoting both our live courses and are and our material in our cups. >> I can vouch them firsthand. They're awesome. You guys do Amazing work and information you guys put out is really killer. I mean, the amount of stuff I've been able to learn from you guys and what you've been doing has helped me a ton. It's really, really awesome to see you guys promoting the education that way. And thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. It was a blast talking Teo again. Guys, go follow him on Instagram. He's got some amazing stuff anyway. You can read about him, learn about him and what he's doing. Please do so and thank you. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it a lot of spreading the word and talking to like minded individuals and making friends. You know that I have kind of this ongoing theme of, you know, it's all about, You know, there's two things that we can control in our life. It's really what we put in our mouths and how much we move and people like you that air getting the word out. This information is really important that we've got to take control of our health. We're the only ones responsible. So let's do it. And then if there's other people that can help you reach out to them and and get the help you need. >> Well, that's great. All right, guys. Thank you for listening. Really Appreciate it. And thank you once again

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida. It's TheCUBE covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Ventara. >> Welcome back to TheCUBE's live coverage of PentahoWorld brought to you by Hitachi Ventara, we are wrapping up day one. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohosts today James Kobielus and Dave Vellante. Guys, day one is done what have we learned? What's been the most exciting thing that you've seen at this conference? >> The most exciting thing is that clearly Hitachi Ventara which of course, Pentaho is a centerpiece is very much building on their strong background and legacy and open analytics, and pushing towards open analytics in the Internet of things, their portfolio, the whole edge to outcome theme, with Brian Householder doing a sensational Keynote this morning, laying out their strategic directions now Dave had a great conversation with him on TheCUBE earlier but I was very impressed with the fact that they've got a dynamic leader and a dynamic strategy, and just as important Hitachi, the parent company, has clearly put together three product units that make sense. You got strong data integration, you got a strong industrial IOT focus, and you got a really strong predictive and machine learning capability with Pentaho for the driving the entire pipeline towards the edge. Now that to me shows that they've got all the basic strategic components necessary to seize the future, further possibilities. Now, they brought a lot of really good customers on, including our latest one from IMS, Hillove, to discuss exactly what they're doing in that area. So I was impressed with the amount of solid substance of them seizing the opportunity. >> Well so I go back two years, when TheCUBE first did PentagoWorld 2015, and the story then was pretty strong. You had a company in big data, they seemingly were successful, they had a lot of good customer references, they achieved escape velocity, and had a nice exit under Quentin Galavine, who was the CEO at the time and the team. And they had a really really good story, I thought. But I was like okay, now what? We heard about conceptually we're going to bring the industrial internet and analytics together, and then it kind of got quiet for two years. And now, you're starting to see the strategy take shape in typical Hitachi form. They tend not to just rush in to big changes and transformations like this, they've been around for a long time, a very thoughtful company. I kind of look at Hitachi limited in a way, as an IBM like company of Japan, even though they do industrial equipment, and IBM's obviously in a somewhat different business, but they're very thoughtful. And so I like the story the problem I see is not enough people know about the story. Brian was very transparent this morning, how many people do business with Hitachi? Very few. And so I want to see the ecosystem grow. The ecosystem here is Hitachi, a couple of big data players, I don't see any reason why they can't explode this event and the ecosystem around Hitachi Ventara, to fulfill it's vision. I think that that's a key aspect of what they have to do. >> I want to see-- >> What will be the tipping point? Just to get as you said, I mean it's the brand awareness, and every customer we had on the show really said, when he when he said that my eyes lit up and I thought oh wow, we could actually be doing more stuff with Hitachi, there's more here. >> I want to see a strong developer focus, >> Yeah. >> Going forward, that focuses on AI and deep learning at the at the edge. I'm not hearing a lot of that here at PentahoWorld, of that rate now. So that to me is a strategic gap right now and what they're offering. When everybody across the IT and data and so forth is going real deep on things like frameworks like TensorFlow and so forth, for building evermore sophisticated, data driven algorithms with the full training pipeline and deployment and all that, I'm not hearing a lot of that from the Pentaho product group or from the Hitachi Ventara group here at this event. So next year at this event I would like to hear more of what they're doing in that area. For them to really succeed, they're going to have to have a solid strategy to migrate up there, openstack to include like I said, a bit of TensorFlow, MXNet, or some of the other deep learning tool kits that are becoming essentially defacto standards with developers. >> Yeah, so I mean I think the vision's right. Many of the pieces are in place, and the pieces that aren't there, I'm actually not that worried about, because Hitachi has the resources to go get them, either build them organically, which has proven it can do overtime, or bring in acquisition. Hitachi is a decent acquire of companies. Its content platform came in on an acquisition, I've seen them do some hardware acquisitions, some have worked, some haven't. But there's a lot of interesting software players out there and I think there's some values, frankly. The big data, tons of money poured in to this open source world, hard to make money in opensource, which means I think companies like Hitachi could pick off to do some M and A and find some value. Personally, I think if the numbers right at a half a billion dollars, I personally think that that was pretty good value for Hitachi. You see in all these multi billion dollar acquisitions going left and right. And so the other thing is the fact that Hitachi under the leadership under Brian Householder and others, was able to shift its model from 80% hardware, now it's 50/50 software and services I'd like to dig into that a little bit. They're a public company but you can't really peel the onion on the Hitachi Ventara side, so it kind of is what they say it is, I would imagine that's a lot of infrastructure software, kind of like EMC's a software company. >> James: Right. >> But nonetheless, they're moving towards a subscription model, they're committed to that, and I think that the other thing is that a lot of costumers. We come to a lot of shows and they struggle to get costumers on with substantive stories, so we heard virtually every costumer we talked to today is like Here's how I'm using Pentaho, here's how it's affecting. Not like super sexy stories yet, I mean that's what the IOT and the edge piece come in, but fundamental plumbing around big data, Pentaho seems like a pretty important piece of it. >> Their fundamental-- >> Their fundamental plumbing that's really saving them a lot of money too, and having a big ROI. >> They're fairly blue-chip as a solution provider of a full core data of a portfolio of Pentaho. I think of them in many ways as sort of like SAP, not a flashy vendor, but a very much a solid blue-chip in their core markets >> Right. >> I'm just naming another vendor that I don't see with a strong AI focus yet. >> Yeah. >> Pentaho, nothing to sneeze at when you have one customer after another like we've had here, rolling out some significant work they've been doing with Pantaho for quite a while, not to sneeze at their delivering value but they have to rise to the next level of value before long, to avoid be left in the dust. >> You got this data obviously they're going to be capturing more more data with the devices. >> James: Yeah. >> And The relationship with Hitachi proper, the elevator makers is still a little fuzzy to me, I'm trying to understand how that all shakes up, but my question for you Jim is: okay so let's assume for second they're going to have this infrastructure in place because they are industrial internet, and they got the analytics platform, maybe there's some holes that they can fill in, one being AI and some of the deep learning stuff, can't they get that somewhere? I mean there's so much action going on-- >> Yes. >> In the AI world, can't they bring that in and learn how to apply it overtime? >> Of course they can. First of all they can acquire and tap their own internal expertise. They've got like Mark Hall for example on the panel, they've obviously got a deep bench of data scientist like him who can take it to that next level, that's important. I think another thing that Hitachi Ventara needs to do to take it to the next level is they need a strong robotics portfolio. It's really talking about industrial internet of things, it's robotics with AI inside. I think they're definitely a company that could go there fairly quickly, a wide range of partners they can bring in or acquire to get fairly significant in terms of not just robotics in general, but robotics for a broad range of use cases where the AI is not so much the supervise learning and stuff that involves training, but things like reinforcement learning, and there's a fair amount of smarts and academe on Reinforcement learning for in body cognition, for robots, that's out there in terms of that's like the untapped space other than the broad AI portfolio, reinforcement learning. If somebody's going to innovate and differentiate themselves in terms of the enterprise, in terms of leveraging robotics in a variety of applications, it's going to to be somebody with a really strong grounding and reinforcement learning and productizing that and baking that in to an actual solution portfolio, I don't see yet the Google's and the IBM's and the Microsofts going there, and so if these guys want to stand out, that's one area they might explore. >> Yeah, and I think to pick up on that, I think this notion of robotics process automation, that market's going to explode. We were at a conference this week in Boston, the data rowdy of Boston, the chief data officer conference at the Park Plaza, 20 to 25% of the audiences, the CDO's in the audience had some kind of RPA, robotic process automation, initiative going on which I thought was astoundingly high. And so it would seem to me that Hitachi's going to be in a good position to capture all that data. The other thing that Brian stressed, which a lot of companies without a cloud will stress, is that it's your data, you own the data, we're not trying to resell that data, monetize that data, repackage that data. I pushed him a little bit on well what about that data training models, and where do those models go? And he says Look we are not in the business of taking models and you know as a big consultancy, and bringing it over to other competitors. Now Hitachi does have consultancy, but it's sort of in a focus, but as Brian said in his keynote, you have to listen to what people say and then watch them to see how they act. >> Rebecca: Do they walk the walk? >> How they respond. >> Right. >> And so that's you have to make your decision, but I do think that's going to be a very interesting field to watch because Hitachi's going to have so much data in their devices. Of course they're going to mine that data for things like predictive analytics, those devices are going to be in factories, they're going to be in ecosystems, and there's going to be a battle for who owns the data, and it's going to be really interesting to see how that shakes out. >> So I want to ask you both, as you've both have said, we've had a lot of great customer stories here on TheCUBE today. We had a woman who does autonomous vehicles, we had a gamer from Finland, we had a benefit scientist out of Massachusetts, Who were your favorite customer stories and what excited you most about their stories? >> James: Hmmm. >> Well I know you like the car woman. >> Well, yeah the car woman, >> The car woman. >> Ella Hillel. >> Ella Hillel, Yes. >> The PHD. That was really what I found many things fascinating, I was on a panel with Ella as well as she was on TheCUBE, what I found interesting I was expecting her to go to town on all things autonomous driving, self driving vehicles, and so forth, was she actually talked about the augmentation of the driver, passenger experience through analytics, dashboards in the sense that dashboards that help not only drivers but insurance companies and fleet managers, to do behavioral modification to help them modify the behavior, to get the most out of their vehicular experience, like reducing wear and tear on tires, and by taking better roads, or revising I thought that's kind of interesting; build more of the recommendation engine capability into the overall driving experience. That depends on an infrastructure of predictive analytics and big data, but also metered data coming from the vehicle and so forth. I found that really interesting because they're doing work clearly in that area, that's an area that you don't need levels one through five of self driving vehicles to get that. You can get that at any level of that whole model, just by bringing those analytics somehow into an organic way hopefully safely, into your current driving experience, maybe through a heads-up display that's integrated through your GPS or whatever might be, I found that interesting because that's something you could roll out universally, and it can actually make a huge difference in A: safety, B: people's sort of pleasure with the driving experience, Fahrvergnugen that's a Volkswagon, and then also see how people make the best use of their own vehicular assets in an era where people still mostly own their own car. >> Well for me if there's gambling involved-- >> Rebecca: You're there. >> It was the gaming, now not only because of the gambling, and we didn't find out how to beat the house Leonard, maybe next time, but it was confirmation of the three-tier data model from from edge-- >> James: Yes. >> To gateway to cloud, and that the cloud is two vectors; the on-premise and the off-premise cloud, and the fact that as a gaming company who designs their own slot machines it's an edge device, and they're basically instrumenting that edge device for real-time interactions. He said that most of the data will go back, I'm not sure. Maybe in that situation it might, maybe all the data will go back like weather data, it all comes back, But generally speaking I think there's going to be a lot of analog data at the edge that's going to be digitize that maybe you don't have to save and persist. But anyway, confirmation of that three-tiered data model I think is important because I think that is how Brian talked about it, we all know the pendulum is swinging, swung away from mainframe to decentralize back to the centralized data center and now it's swinging again to a much more distributed sort of data architecture. So it was good to hear confirmation of that, and I think it's again, it's really early innings in terms of how that all shakes out. >> Great, and we'll know more tomorrow at Pentaho day two, and I look forward to to being up here again with both of you tomorrow. >> Likewise. >> Great, this has been TheCUBE's live coverage of PentahoWorld brought to you by Hitachi Ventara, I'm Rebecca Knight for Jim Kobielus and Dave Vellante, we'll see you back here tomorrow.

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's The Cube. Covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by, Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to Orlando, everybody. This is PentahoWorld, #pworld17 and this is The Cube, The leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm here with my co-host, Jim Kobielus Donna Prlich is here, she's the Chief Product Officer of Pentaho and a many-time Cube guest. Great to see you again. >> Thanks for coming on. >> No problem, happy to be here. >> So, I'm thrilled that you guys decided to re-initiate this event. You took a year off, but we were here in 2015 and learned a lot about Pentaho and especially about your customers and how they're applying this, sort of, end-to-end data pipeline platform that you guys have developed over a decade plus, but it was right after the acquisition by Hitachi. Let's start there, how has that gone? So they brought you in, kind of left you alone for awhile, but what's going on, bring us up to date. >> Yeah, so it's funny because it was 2015, it was PentahoWorld, second one, and we were like, wow, we're part of this new company, which is great, so for the first year we were really just driving against our core. Big-Data Integration, analytics business, and capturing a lot of that early big-data market. Then, probably in the last six months, with the initiation of Hitachi Ventara which really is less about Pentaho being merged into a company, and I think Brian covered it in a keynote, we're going to become a brand new entity, which Hitachi Vantara is now a new company, focused around software. So, obviously, they acquired us for all that big-data orchestration and analytics capability and so now, as part of that bigger organization, we're really at the center of that in terms of moving from edge to outcome, as Brian talked about, and how we focus on data, digital transformation and then achieving the outcome. So that's where we're at right now, which is exciting. So now we're part of this bigger portfolio of products that we have access to in some ways. >> Jim: And I should point out that Dave called you The CPO of Pentaho, but in fact you're the CPO of Hitachi Vantara, is that correct? >> No, so I am not. I am the CPO for the Pentaho product line, so it's a good point, though, because Pentaho brand, the product brand, stays the same. Because obviously we have 1,800 customers and a whole bunch of them are all around here. So I cover that product line for Hitachi Vantara. >> David: And there's a diverse set of products in the portfolios >> Yes. >> So I'm actually not sure if it makes sense to have a Chief Products officer for Hitachi Vantara, right? Maybe for different divisions it makes sense, right? But I've got to ask you, before the acquisition, how much were you guys thinking about IOT and Industrial IOT? It must have been on your mind, at about 2015 it certainly was a discussion point and GE was pushing all this stuff out there with the ads and things like that, but, how much was Pentaho thinking about it and how has that accelerated since the acquisition? >> At that time in my role, I had product marketing I think I had just taken Product Management and what we were seeing was all of these customers that were starting to leverage machine-generated data and were were thinking, well, this is IOT. And I remember going to a couple of our friendly analyst folks and they were like, yeah, that's IOT, so it was interesting, it was right before we were acquired. So, we'd always focus on these blueprints of we've got to find the repeatable patterns, whether it's Customer 360 in big data and we said, well they're is some kind of emerging pattern here of people leveraging sensor data to get a 360 of something. Whether it's a customer or a ship at sea. So, we started looking at that and going, we should start going after this opportunity and, in fact, some of the customers we've had for a long time, like IMS, who spoke today all around the connected cars. They were one of the early ones and then in the last year we've probably seen more than 100% growth in customers, purely from a Pentaho perspective, leveraging Machine-generated data with some other type of data for context to see the outcome. So, we were seeing it then, and then when we were acquired it was kind of like, oh this is cool now we're part of this bigger company that's going after IOT. So, absolutely, we were looking at it and starting to see those early use cases. >> Jim: A decade or more ago, Pentaho, at that time, became very much a pioneer in open-source analytics, you incorporated WECA, the open-source code base for machine-learning, data mining of sorts. Into the core of you're platform, today, here, at the conference you've announced Pentaho 8.0, which from what I can see is an interesting release because it brings stronger integration with the way the open-source analytic stack has evolved, there's some Spark Streaming integration, there's some Kafaka, some Hadoop and so forth. Can you give us a sense of what are the main points of 8.0, the differentiators for that release, and how it relates to where Pentaho has been and where you're going as a product group within Hiatachi Vantara. >> So, starting with where we've been and where we're going, as you said, Anthony DeShazor, Head of Customer Success, said today, 13 years, on Friday, that Pentaho started with a bunch of guys who were like, hey, we can figure out this BI thing and solve all the data problems and deliver the analytics in an open-source environment. So that's absolutely where we came form. Obviously over the years with big data emerging, we focused heavily on the big data integration and delivering the analytics. So, with 8.0, it's a perfect spot for us to be in because we look at IOT and the amount of data that's being generated and then need to address streaming data, data that's moving faster. This is a great way for us to pull in a lot of the capabilities needed to go after those types of opportunities and solve those types of challenges. The first one is really all about how can we connect better to streaming data. And as you mentioned, it's Spark Streaming, it's connecting to Kafka streams, it's connecting to the Knox gateway, all things that are about streaming data and then in the scale-up, scale-out kind of, how do we better maximize the processing resources, we announced in 7.1, I think we talked to you guys about it, the Adaptive Execution Layers, the idea that you could choose execution engine you want based on the processing you need. So you can choose the PDI engine, you can choose Spark. Hopefully over time we're going to see other engines emerge. So we made that easier, we added Horton Work Support to that and then this concept of, so that's to scale up, but then when you think about the scale-out, sometimes you want to be able to distribute the processing across your nodes and maybe you run out of capacity in a Pentaho server, you can add nodes now and then you can kind-of get rid of that capacity. So this concept of worker-nodes, and to your point earlier about the Hitachi Portfolio, we use some of the services in the foundry layer that Hitachi's been building as a platform. >> David: As a low balancer, right? >> As part of that, yes. So we could leverage what they had done which if you think about Hitachi, they're really good at storage, and a lot of things Pentaho doesn't have experience in, and infrastructure. So we said, well why are we trying to do this, why don't we see what these guys are doing and we leverage that as part of the Pentaho platform. So that's the first time we brought some of their technology into the mix with the Pentaho platform and I think we're going to see more of that and then, lastly, around the visual data prep, so how can we keep building on that experience to make data prep faster and easier. >> So can I ask you a really Columbo question on that sort-of load-balancing capabilities that you just described. >> That's a nice looking trench coat you're wearing. >> (laughter) gimme a little cigar. So, is that the equivalent of a resource negotiator? Do I think of that as sort of your own yarn? >> Donna: I knew you were going to ask me about that (laughter) >> Is that unfair to position it that way? >> It's a little bit different, conceptually, right, it's going to help you to better manage resources, but, if you think about Mesos and some of the capabilities that are out there that folks are using to do that, that's what we're leveraging, so it's really more about sometimes I just need more capacity for the Pentaho server, but I don't need it all the time. Not every customer is going to get to the scale that they need that so it's a really easy way to just keep bringing in as much capacity as you need and have it available. >> David: I see, so really efficient, sort of low-level kind of stuff. >> Yes. >> So, when you talk about distributed load execution, you're pushing more and more of the processing to the edge and, of course, Brian gave a great talk about edge to outcome. You and I were on a panel with Mark Hall and Ella Hilal about the, so called, "power of three" and you did a really good blog post on that the power of the IOT, and big data, and the third is either predictive analytics or machine learning, can you give us a quick sense for our viewers about what you mean by the power of three and how it relates to pushing more workloads to the edge and where Hitachi Vantara is going in terms of your roadmap in that direction for customers. >> Well, its interesting because one of the things we, maybe we have a recording of it, but kind of shrink down that conversation because it was a great conversation but we covered a lot of ground. Essentially that power of three is. We started with big data, so as we could capture more data we could store it, that gave us the ability to train and tune models much easier than we could before because it was always a challenge of, how do I have that much data to get my model more accurate. Then, over time everybody's become a data scientist with the emergence of R and it's kind of becoming a little bit easier for people to take advantage of those kinds of tools, so we saw more of that, and then you think about IOT, IOT is now generating even more data, so, as you said, you're not going to be able to process all of that, bring all that in and store it, it's not really efficient. So that's kind of creating this, we might need the machine learning there, at the edge. We definitely need it in that data store to keep it training and tuning those models, and so what it does is, though, is if you think about IMS, is they've captured all that data, they can use the predictive algorithms to do some of the associations between customer information and the censor data about driving habits, bring that together and so it's sort of this perfect storm of the amount of data that's coming in from IOT, the availability of the machine learning, and the data is really what's driving all of that, and I think that Mark Hall, on our panel, who's a really well-known data-mining expert was like, yeah, it all started because we had enough data to be able to do it. >> So I want to ask you, again, a product and maybe philosophy question. We've talked on the Cube a lot about the cornucopia of tooling that's out there and people who try to roll their own and. The big internet companies and the big banks, they get the resources to do it but they need companies like you. When we talk to your customers, they love the fact that there's an integrated data pipeline and you've made their lives simple. I think in 8.0 I saw spark, you're probably replacing MapReduce and making life simpler so you've curated a lot of these tools, but at the same time, you don't own you're own cloud, you're own database, et cetera. So, what's the philosophy of how you future-proof your platform when you know that there are new projects in Apache and new tooling coming out there. What's the secret sauce behind that? >> Well the first one is the open-source core because that just gave us the ability to have APIs, to extend, to build plugins, all of that in a community that does quite a bit of that, in fact, Kafka started with a customer that built a step, initially, we've now brought that into a product and created it as part of the platform but those are the things that in early market, a customer can do at first. We can see what emerges around that and then go. We will offer it to our customers as a step but we can also say, okay, now we're ready to productize this. So that's the first thing, and then I think the second one is really around when you see something like Spark emerge and we were all so focused on MapReduce and how are we going to make it easier and let's create tools to do that and we did that but then it was like MapReduce is going to go away, well there's still a lot of MapReduce out there, we know that. So we can see then, that MapReduce is going to be here and, I think the numbers are around 50/50, you probably know better than I do where Spark is versus MapReduce. I might be off but. >> Jim: If we had George Gilbert, he'd know. >> (laughs) Maybe ask George, yeah it's about 50/50. So you can't just abandon that, 'cause there's MapReduce out there, so it was, what are we going to do? Well, what we did in the Hadoop Distro days is we created a adaptive, big data layer that said, let's abstract a layer so that when we have to support a new distribution of Hadoop, we don't have to go back to the drawing board. So, it was the same thing with the execution engines. Okay, let's build this adaptive execution layer so that we're prepared to deal with other types of engines. I can build the transformation once, execute it anywhere, so that kind of philosophy of stepping back if you have that open platform, you can do those kinds of things, You can create those layers to remove all of that complexity because if you try to one-off and take on each one of those technologies, whether it's Spark or Flink or whatever's coming, as a product, and a product management organization, and a company, that's really difficult. So the community helps a ton on that, too. >> Donna, when you talk to customers about. You gave a great talk on the roadmap today to give a glimpse of where you guys are headed, your basic philosophy, your architecture, what are they pushing you for? Where are they trying to take you or where are you trying to take them? (laughs) >> (laughs) Hopefully, a little bit of both, right? I think it's being able to take advantage of the kinds of technologies, like you mentioned, that are emerging when they need them, but they also want us to make sure that all of that is really enterprise-ready, you're making it solid. Because we know from history and big data, a lot of those technologies are early, somebody has to get their knees skinned and all that with the first one. So they're really counting on us to really make it solid and quality and take care of all of those intricacies of delivering it in a non-open-source way where you're making it a real commercial product, so I think that's one thing. Then the second piece that we're seeing a lot more of as part of Hitachi we've moved up into the enterprise we also need to think a lot more about monitoring, administration, security, all of the things that go at the base of a pipeline. So, that scenario where they want us to focus. The great thing is, as part of Hitachi Vantara now, those aren't areas that we always had a lot of expertise in but Hitachi does 'cause those are kind of infrastructure-type technologies, so I think the push to do that is really strong and now we'll actually be able to do more of it because we've got that access to the portfolio. >> I don't know if this is a fair question for you, but I'm going to ask it anyway, because you just talked about some of the things Hitachi brings and that you can leverage and it's obvious that a lot of the things that Pentaho brings to Hitachi, the family but one of the things that's not talked about a lot is go-to-market, Hitachi data systems, traditionally don't have a lot of expertise at going to market with developers as the first step, where in your world you start. Has Pentaho been able to bring that cultural aspect to the new entity. >> For us, even though we have the open-source world, that's less of the developer and more of an architect or a CIO or somebody who's looking at that. >> David: Early adopter or. >> More and more it's the Chief Data Officer and that type of a persona. I think that, now that we are a entity, a brand new entity, that's a software-oriented company, we're absolutely going to play a way bigger role in that, because we brought software to market for 13 years. I think we've had early wins, we've had places where we're able to help. In an account, for instance, if you're in the data center, if that's where Hitachi is, if you start to get that partnership and we can start to draw the lines from, okay, who are the people that are now looking at, what's the big data strategy, what's the IOT strategy, where's the CDO. That's where we've had a much better opportunity to get to bigger sales in the enterprise in those global accounts, so I think we'll see more of that. Also there's the whole transformation of Hitachi as well, so I think there'll be a need to have much more of that software experience and also, Hitachi's hired two new executives, one on the sales side from SAP, and one who's now my boss, Brad Surak from GE Digital, so I think there's a lot of good, strong leadership around the software side and, obviously, all of the expertise that the folks at Pentaho have. >> That's interesting, that Chief Data Officer role is emerging as a target for you, we were at an event on Tuesday in Boston, there were about 200 Chief Data Officers there and I think about 25% had a Robotic Process Automation Initiative going on, they didn't ask about IOT just this little piece of IOT and then, Jim, Data Scientists and that whole world is now your world, okay great. Donna Prlich, thanks very much for coming to the Cube. Always a pleasure to see you. >> Donna: Yeah, thank you. >> Okay, Dave Velonte for Jim Kobielus. Keep it right there everybody, this is the Cube. We're live from PentahoWorld 2017 hashtag P-World 17. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara, we'll be right back. (upbeat techno)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's the Cube. Covering Pentaho World 2017 brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage of Pentaho World brought to you of course by Hitachi Vantara. I am your host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host, Dave Vellante. We're joined by Anthony Deshazor. He is the Chief Solution's Architect and SVP of Customer Success at Pentaho. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. >> Thank you for having me. Wonderful to be here. >> So before the cameras were rolling, we were talking a little bit about your career. You've been at this company for 12 years. >> Anthony: 12 years. >> And in different iterations of the company. >> Anthony: Right. >> Tell our viewers a little bit about how the company has evolved and also your role has evolved. >> One of the things that I really have watched Pentaho go through is the evolution to be more customer-centric. We began as a technology company. A bunch of geeks getting together. Had some neat tech, we could write some code and it was fun. We enjoyed it, but now as we start getting more customers we realized the technology had to serve the customer versus the customer serving the technology. That's wonderful transformation to go through to figure out how do you take that technology, bend it to the will of the customer and have that customer at the center of all your conversations. That was something that took us about six years to go through. Where we had all the geeks, kind of out of the room and put them in the back. I was one of the geeks so I got excused for some of those strategy conversations. But we got some good sales guys involved, some good marketing people who really brought that customer focus. Along the way we built better solutions 'cause we were listening more to our customers. It's interesting when you hear what people want to do you have a better chance of actually achieving it versus, let me build it and they will come. Other way, what do they need now let me build that. >> And really you said you were a geek, but you also really straddled the non-geek side too-- >> Anthony: Right. >> Because you can speak the other side. How do you do that, what is sort of the secret sauce to? >> I actually attribute that to some of my non-Pentaho, non-technical training. I'm actually a pastor of a church in Orlando, Florida. So I've done a lot of theological studies, a lot of homiletics that teach you how to stand on a stage and how to relate to people, even at a distance. And that actually comes through when you talk one on one with people. They feel like you're actually listening to them. And I actually attribute that all to that training. >> But the underline architecture still has to be malleable in order to accommodate-- >> Absolutely. >> That vision that you just put forth. It's kind of like that platforms versus products. >> Anthony: Yes. >> You built a platform not a product. And if you don't start with a vision of a platform you get a bunch of products. It don't necessarily tie together. Take us back to the early days. Was that part of the design thinking? >> Actually it was. Our five founders at Pentaho had that in their DNA. We had done three startups. I've been luckily enough or maybe stupid enough to do three of their startups. They had done three, I have done all three. But at the very core it was we needed to build something that was embeddable. That can work in process. Something that can be molded to the client's problem. We understood that whatever we built will never be enough. It would never be able to solve all of the problems. So if we put gates around it, it would reduce what we can do. So we wanted to build something that was extendable. Something that was a platform that if we didn't have the functionality you could easily build it. That's one of the reasons why went open source originally. Where all the code was open source. Anyone could extend it, anyone could bend it. Just because we understood there's no way for us, sitting in an ivory tower, to really figure out what's needed. >> And these decisions were made in the early to mid 2000's. >> Anthony: Yes. >> So they way predated Hadoop. >> Anthony: Yes. >> Then you had Hadoop saying okay, we're just going to bring compute to the data. And totally different data paradigm and platform approach. >> Anthony: Yes, yes. >> Was it that sort of philosophy that allowed you to adapt or did you have to do a heavy lift to adapt? >> Actually it wasn't a heavy lift. The legend has it, I wasn't in the conversation but our founding CEO had a conversation with one of our architects. I think they were having drinks or something at one of the local bars or pubs around Orlando, around the Orlando office. They begin to talk about Hadoop, pulled out a white napkin and just drew some things on the back of the napkin. A week later we had our first integration with Haddook. That's built upon that extendable, pluggable architecture that was there at the core. So that's really allowed up to adapt to new technologies to really catch the waves early and maybe sometimes anticipate the waves. >> So in this latest iteration of the company, Hitachi Vantara what can customers expect? >> The one way I can describe it is that it's maturity. You get the size of Hitachi Vantara behind you, you can do things that you could not do with a small company. As great as Pentaho was as a standalone company I believe we'll be that much bigger when you have the whole weight of Hitachi Anatara standing behind you. We had our strategic advisory board yesterday and one of the things I shared with those customers is that now you will see us attack things that we could not even fathom before. We have more developers so we can move features further, faster. We have more people in different regions so now we can do more services, help customers better in far regions like an Apac region for example. Where we struggled in the past as a standalone company. When you have a support center. A whole geography dedicated to Hitachi Vantara already there, it's now how do we instead of build the infrastructure just add that analytic DNA to the infrastructure that already exists. So that's what I think customers will experience very quickly. We can do more faster. We can do more in different locations. And we can even do more at a higher level of efficiency and quality if you would, because we have that backing of Hitachi Vantara. >> You were sharing this off camera. You do a lot of traveling, you talk to a lot of customers. >> Yes. >> You spend a lot of time in the aluminum tube. When you talk to customers and you compare it to now versus in the early days. The technology when you guys started was sort of mysterious and today the technology, there's plenty of it, it's abundant and it's pretty well understood. Sometimes it's hard to make work. But when you guys talk about digital transformation. >> Anthony: Sure. >> And disruption, be the disruptor, not the disruptee. A big thing that's changing is the processes within organizations. Those are largely unknown. It used to be very well known processes. Accounting or HR or whatever it was. Now the processes they're changing everyday. >> Yes. >> Do you have those conversations with customers and how are you as a company adapting and supporting that premise. >> One of the things I've noticed is that we have new roles introduced everyday. (laughter) All of a sudden, we had a data engineer. They used to be called DBA's, now they're data engineers. Now we have data scientists. Some companies I know they have data janitors and we have data prep. All these people now new roles in the organization all related to data. What we've been looking at is how do we make sure that every person, no matter their role understands how to use the data. My interest and my focus here at Pentaho is not just around architecture but also customer success. And we learned very quickly in the last two years as we've been on this customer success journey, you can install the best technology. It can be absolutely pristine from an architectural standpoint. You can get awards on architecture. But if you can't get the people to adapt, to adopt and use the software, use the solution you've basically just wasted your time. So what we've been focused on, how do we identify those new roles? How do we identify what skills do they need? How do we do training on the solution that was built so that no matter what their role is they understand how the solution can add value. How does the solution improve your job? Improve your life experience, maybe get things done faster. Maybe do more than you used to be able to do. But we've gotten out of the old tradition that there's a training department, accounting department. There used to be a time, I'm old enough to say this, where there was business analytics team but now every team has business analytics in it. It's part of someone's job to analyze the data. Even if that's not their primary function. So it's that, how do you make sure that no matter the role they have the skills and they access the data. >> How are you fostering collaboration between those roles? You always hear the stories of data scientists spend 80% of their trying to-- >> Anthony: Clean your data. >> Mess with the data, right. But you're right you've got the data engineer, the quality engineer, the application developer now-- >> Anthony: Yes. >> Data's now the new development kit. >> Anthony: It is. >> So how are you approaching the collaboration across those roles? >> So one of the things we've challenged our customers with is do you have a center of excellence? Doesn't have to be a dedicated center of excellence. It can be a concept or virtual team. But do you have a forum where people can collaborate? If you're doing analytics in a silo, if you're doing data integration in a silo and people are not talking to each other you're missing opportunities for efficiency, for innovation, even for understanding, wait if I do this that allows you to do this better. So how do you create that center of excellence? We have services now, professional services team are working with our customers to start that concept. Let's train one or two people. Make them the go to people for everyone else. >> Rebecca: Evangelists. >> Exactly, they become the evangelist. That helps us in two ways. One it helps us when it comes to getting people to use the technology in the right way. When you have a platform that means people have to use it correctly. You can build some amazing things with Pentaho, but you can also build some pretty, let's just say non-efficient things with the same platform. And then of course, me being the customer guy, they're going to blame the technology and I have to have that very delicate conversation, like not real good technology. It's the builder, it's what you built that's the problem. So we have some experts there that we can train and have them be the guardians, if you would. The custodians of the quality of the solutions. To make sure there's consistency and best practices. But the other side, we're also a renewable based company where we want to get the subscriptions, we want to get the renewals. So if I have evangelist there that can help the company use the solutions, adopt the solutions, that makes the renewal conversations that much easier. >> So I want to talk to you about measuring success. >> Anthony: Sure. >> Because one of the things that came out in the keynote today was Pentaho's underlying principles of social innovation and not just saving companies money or making them more money but also doing good in the world and bettering society. So how do you pitch that to customers? How do customers respond? How do you approach that idea? >> It's a hard one at times, because most companies are focused, I need to solve my problem. I don't care what we're doing about the rest of the world. I have this major pain point. This is what I need you to focus on. >> And fair enough. >> Absolutely, that's what they're paying the money for. That's where we start. We start there, can we get into start solving some problems together. And as the partnership develops, now what else can we do? So it's not just let me go sell this one solution. Let's partner for your good but for the good of the whole society. Are there things we can do that actually make not only your job easier, bring you money, but actually make things better. So some of the customers I love you heard IMS, you heard Dr. Alaina there Ella, excuse me today. I met with some of the other ones that are working with IMS, Dr. Ben. That story's actually close to my heart, 'cause who doesn't want to save money on their insurance but who also doesn't want better and safer cars? That's a social innovation story. Absolutely we're driving down the costs, we're helping companies manage their risks, understand their risks around insurance. But then we're also helping them get feedback on what makes cars better. What makes them safer? How can we avoid accidents? That is social innovation, that's what we're looking for. That's what Brian talked about with that double bottom line. How can we help you achieve your business goals but go beyond that to better society. >> We've heard a lot about transformations. Hitachi's own transformation, Pentaho, pre Hadoop, the Hadoop big data mime. You guys caught that wave. Now you're sort of entering, I don't know if it's your third wave or not. (laughter) Could be your fifth, tenth, I don't know. But there's another big wave coming. >> Anthony: Absolutely. >> Which is industrial IOT, Brian talked about IT and OT coming together. >> Anthony: Coming together. >> And it's early days but what are you seeing in the customer base. It was interesting, Brian very transparent, said how many Hitachi customers are out there? A few hands went up. >> Great, great. >> But not a ton. So as I say it is early days, but on paper the potential is enormous. >> Anthony: Great. >> It's a trillion dollar market, makes a lot of since, you see a lot of big industrial giants going after this and you've got some real assets you can bring to bear. >> Anthony: Right. >> What are the conversations like with customers and where do you see that all going? >> The way we approached customers and what I hear from customers, they don't really mention the word IOT. >> Dave: Okay. >> Most of them don't understand that they have an IOT problem. All they know is, I have this problem. So we're using IOT is to say, you have that outcome. You desire that outcome and to get that outcome you need to get data from all your devices. We have an IOT platform that can help you do that. So where the word even IOT comes up for us, is only in the solution not in the problem. Where I think some companies are missing the mark 'cause they're selling the technology. We have an IOT platform, please come buy our platform. Well, we've been a platform play forever with Pentaho and we understand that if you go there with a blank slate and say here, here's my platform come buy it, people don't understand it. They don't see the value. But if you can come and say, what's the problem you have? What's the outcome you're looking for? Let's focus on the outcome and back our way into the technology. And that's how we're approaching customers. That seems to be working so far. We have some IOT customers today that did not realize that they were doing IOT. >> The big product announcement today with Pentaho 8. What can we expect? >> Scale, that's the one word I would use for Pentaho 8. This is one of the best releases I think we've had. We have a new functionality called Work Nodes. We have customers who have been implementing something similar to this in the field for years. We've now productized it, it allows customers to scale out. We've heard from Brian and from others that to do this right you have to do it at scale. You have to provide this data, this analytics at scale. What our Worker Nodes allows customers to do is spin ups, spin down, distribute the workload on prim in the cloud. We don't really care, it's just we have a workload. You've given us a set of nodes we can work on we're just distribute the workload throughout that and when we're done we can spin them down. That elasticity, that flexibility as absolutely needed for today's data solutions. >> Great, Anthony thank you, you were a great guest. Thanks for coming on the Cube. >> Thank you for having me, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante. We will have more from Pentaho World just after this. (upbeat music)

(electronic music) >> Host: Live from Midtown Manhattan it's The Cube! Covering Big Data New York City 2017, brought to you by Silicon Angle Media, and its Ecosystem sponsors. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live, The Cube in New York City for Big Data NYC, this is our fifth year, doing our own event, not with O'Reilly or Cloud Era at Strata Data, which as Hadoop World, Strata Conference, Strata Hadoop, now called Strata Data, probably called Strata AI next year, we're The Cube every year, bringing you all the great data, and what's going on. Entrepreneurs, VCs, thought leaders, we interview them and bring that to you. I'm John Furrier with our next guest, Greg Sands, who's the managing director and founder of Costa Nova ventures in Palo Alto, started out as an entrepreneur himself, then single shingle out there, now he's a big VC firm on a third fund. >> On the third fund. >> Third fund. How much in that fund? >> 175 million dollar fund. >> So now you're a big firm now, congratulations, and really great to see your success. >> Thanks very much. I mean, we're still very much an early stage boutique focused on companies that change the way the world does business, but it is the case that we have a bigger team and a bigger fund, to go do the same thing. >> Well you've been great to work with, I've been following you, we've known each other for a while, watched you left Sir Hill and start Costanova, but what's interesting is that, I can kind of joke and kid you, the VC inside joke about being a big firm, because I know you want to be small, and like to be small, help entrepreneurs, that's your thing. But it's really not a big firm, it's a few partners, but a lot of people helping companies, that's your ethos, that's what you're all about at your firm. Take a minute to just share with the folks the kinds of things you do and how you get involved in companies, you're hands on, you roll up your sleeves. You get out of the way at the right time, you help when you can, share your ethos. >> Yeah, absolutely so the way we think of it is, combining the craft of old school venture capital, with a modern operating team, and so since most founder these days are product-oriented, our job is to think like product people, not think like investors. So we think like product people, we do product level analysis, we do customer discovery, we do, we go ride along on sales calls when we're making investment decisions. And then we do the things that great venture capitalists have done for years, and so for example, at Alatian, who I know has been on the show today, we were able to incubate them in our office for a year, I had many conversations with Sathien after he'd sold the first two or three customers. Okay, who's the next person we hire? Who isn't a founder? Who's going to go out and sell? What does that person look like? Do you go straight to a VP? Or do you hire an individual contributor? Do you hire someone for domain, or do you hire someone for talent? And that's the thing that we love doing. Now we've actually built out an operating team so marketing partner, Martino Alcenco, and Jim Wilson as a sales partner, to really help turn that into a program, so that they can, we can take these founders who find product market fit, and say, how do we help you build the right sales process and marketing process, sales team and marketing team, for your company, your customer, your product? >> Well it's interesting since you mention old school venture capital, I'll get into some of the dynamics that are going on in Silicon valley, but it's important to bring that forward, because now with cloud you can get to critical mass on the fly wheel, on economics, you can see the visibility faster now. >> Greg: Absolutely. >> So the game of the old school venture capitalist is all the same, how do you get to cruising altitude, whatever metaphor you want to use, the key was getting there, and sometimes it took a couple of rounds, but now you can get these companies with five million, maybe $10 million funding, they can have unit economics visibility, scales insight, then the scale game comes in, so that seems to be the secret trick right now in venture is, don't overspend, keep the valuation in range and allows you to look for multiple exits potentially, or growth. Talk about that dynamic, because this is like, I call it the hour glass. You get through the hour glass, everyone's down here, but if you can sneak through and get the visibility on the economics, then you grow quickly. >> Absolutely. I mean, it's exactly right an I haven't heard the hour glass metaphor before but I like it. You want to basically get through the narrows of product market fit and the beginnings of scalable sales and marketing. You don't need to know all the answers, but you can do that in a capital-efficient way, building really solid foundations for future explosive growth, look, everybody loves fast growth and big markets, and being grown into. But the number of people who basically don't build those foundations and then say, go big or go home! And they take a ton of money, and they go spend all the money, doing things that just fundamentally don't work, and they blow themselves up. >> Well this is the hourglass problem. You have, once you get through that unique economics, then you have true scale, and value will increase. Everybody wins there so it's about getting through that, and you can get through it fast with good mentoring, but here's the challenge that entrepreneurs fall into the trap. I call it the, I think I made it trap. And what happens is they think they're on the other side of the hourglass, but they still haven't even gone through the straight and narrow yet, and they don't know it. And what they do is they over fund and implode. That seems to be a major trap I see a lot of entrepreneurs fall into, while I got a 50 million pre on my B round, or some monster valuation, and they get way too much cash, and they're behaving as if they're scaling, and they haven't even nailed it yet. >> Well, I think that's right. So there's certainly, there are stages of product market fit, and so I think people hit that first stage, and they say, oh I've got it. And they try to explode out of the gates. And we, in fact I know one good example of somebody saying, hey, by the way, we're doing great in field sales, and our investors want us to go really fast, so we are going to go inside and we, my job was to hire 50 inside people, without ever having tried it. And so we always preach crawl, walk, run, right? Hire a couple, see how it works. Right, in a new channel. Or a new category, or an adjacent space, and I think that it's helpful to have an investor who has seen the whole picture to say, yeah, I know it looks like light at the end of the tunnel, but see how it's a relatively small dot? You still got to go a little farther, and then the other thing I say is, look, don't build your company to feed your venture capitalist ego. Right? People do these big rounds of big valuations, and the big dog investors say, go, go, go! But, you're the CEO. Your job is analyze the data. >> John: You can find during the day (laughs). >> And say, you know, given what we know, how fast should we go? Which investments should we make? And you've got to own that. And I think sometimes our job is just to be the pulling guard and clear space for the CEO to make good decisions. >> So you know I'm a big fan, so my bias is pretty much out there, love what you guys are doing. Tim Carr is a Pivot North doing the same thing. Really adding value, getting down and dirty, but the question that entrepreneurs always ask me and talk privately, not about you, but in general, I don't want the VC to get in the way. I want them, I don't want them to preach to me, I don't want too many know-it-alls on my board, I want added value, but again, I don't want the preaching, I don't want them to get in the way, 'cause that's the fear. I'm not saying the same about VCs in general, but that's kind of the mentality of an entrepreneur. I want someone who's going to help me, be in the boat with me, but not be in my way. How do you address that concern to the founders who think, not think like that, but might have a fear. >> Well, by the way, I think it's a legitimate fear, and I think it actually is uncorrelated with added value, right? I think the idea that the board has certain responsibilities, and management has certain responsibilities, is incredibly important. And I think, I can speak for myself in saying, I'm quite conscious of not crossing that line, I think you talk. >> John: You got to build a return, that's the thing. >> But ultimately I would say to an entrepreneur, I'd just say, hey look, call references. And by the way, here are 30 names and phone numbers, and call any one of them, because I think that people who are, so a venture capital know-it-all, in the board room, telling CEOs what to do, destroys value. It's sand in the gears, and it's bad for the company. >> Absolutely, I agree 100% >> And some of my, when I talk about being a pulling guard for the CEO, that's what I'm talking about, which is blocking people who are destructive. >> And rolling the block for a touchdown, kind of use the metaphor. Adding value, that's the key, and that's why I wanted to get that out there because most guys don't get that nuance, and entrepreneurs, especially the younger ones. So it's good and important. Okay, let's talk about culture, obviously in Silicon Valley, I get, reading this morning in the Wymo guy, and they're writing it, that's the Silicon Valley, that's not crazy, there's a lot of great people in Silicon Valley, you're one of them. The culture's certainly an innovative culture, there's been some things in the press, inclusion and diversity, obviously is super important. This whole brogrammer thing that's been kind of kicked around. How are you dealing with all that? Because, you know, this is a cultural shift, but I think it's being made out more than it really is, but there's still our core issues, your thoughts on the whole inclusion and diversity, and this whole brogrammer blowback thing. >> Yeah, well so I think, so first of all, really important issues, glad we're talking about them, and we all need to get better. And to me the question for us has been, what role do we play? And because I would say it is a relatively small subset of the tech industry, and the venture capital industry. At the same time the behavior of that has become public is appalling. It's appalling and totally unacceptable, and so the question is, okay, how can we be a part of the stand-up part of the ecosystem, and some of which is calling things out when we see them. Though frankly we work with and hang out with people and we don't see them that often, and then part of which is, how do we find a couple of ways to contribute meaningfully? So for example this summer we ran what we called the Costanova Access Fellowship, intentionally, trying to provide first opportunity and venture capital for people who traditionally haven't had as much access. We created an event in the spring called, Seat at the Table, really, particularly around women in the tech industry, and it went so well that we're running it in New York on October 19th, so if you're a woman in tech in New York, we'd love to see you then. And we're just trying to figure-- >> You're doing it in an authentic way though, you're not really doing it from a promotional standpoint. It's legit. >> Yeah, we're just trying to do, you know, pick off a couple of things that we can do, so that we can be on the side of the good guys. >> So I guess what you're saying is just have high integrity, and be part of the solution not part of the problem. >> That's right, and by the way, both of these initiatives were ones that were kicked off in late 2016, so it's not a reaction to things like binary capital, and the problems at uper, both of which are appalling. >> Self-awareness is critical. Let's get back to the nuts and bolts of the real reason why I wanted you to come on, one was to find out how much money you have to spend for the entrepreneurs that are watching. Give us the update on the last fund, so you got a new fund that you just closed, the new fund, fund three. You have your other funds that are still out there, and some funds reserved, which, what's the number amount, how much are you writing checks for? Give the whole thesis. >> Absoluteley. So we're an early stage investor, so we lead series A and seed financing companies that change the way the world does business, so up and down the stack, a business-facing software, data-driven applications. Machine-learning and AI driven applications. >> John: But the filter is changing the way the world works? >> The way, yes, but in particularly the way the world does business. You can think of it as a business-facing software stack. We're not social media investors, it's not what we know, it's not what we're good at. And it includes security and management, and the data stack and-- >> Joe: Enterprise and emerging tech. >> That's right. And the-- >> And every crazy idea in between. >> That's right. (laughs) Absolutely, and so we're participate in or leave seed financings as most typically are half a million to maybe one and a quarter, and we'll lead series A financing, small ones might be two or two and a half million dollars at the outer edge is probably a six million dollar check. We were just opening up in the next couple of days, a thousand square feet of incubation space at world headquarters at Palo Alto. >> John: Nice. >> So Alation, Acme Ticketing and Zen IQ are companies that we invested in. >> Joe: What location is this going to be at? >> That's, near the Fills in downtown Palo Alto, 164 staff, and those three companies are ones where we effectively invested at formation and incubated it for a year, we love doing that. >> At the hangout at Philsmore and get the data. And so you got some funds, what else do you have going on? 175 million? >> So one was a $100 million fund, and then fund two was $135 million fund, and the last investment of fund two which we announced about three weeks ago was called Roadster, so it's ecommerce enablement for the modern dealerships. So Omnichannel and Mobile First infrastructure for auto-dealers. We have already closed, and had the first board meeting for the first new investment of fund three, which isn't yet announced, but in the land of computer vision and deep learning, so a couple of the subjects that we care deeply about, and spend a lot of time thinking about. >> And the average check size for the A round again, seed and A, what do you know about the? The lowest and highest? >> The average for the seed is half a million to one and a quarter, and probably average for a series A is four or five. >> And you'll lead As. >> And we will lead As. >> Okay great. What's the coolest thing you're working on right now that gets you excited? It doesn't have to be a portfolio company, but the research you're doing, thing, tires you're kicking, in subjects, or domains? >> You know, so honestly, one of the great benefits of the venture capital business is that I get up and my neurons are firing right away every day. And I do think that for example, one of the things that we love is is all of the adulant infrastructure and so we've got our friends at Victor Ops that are in the middle of that space, and the thinking about how the modern programmer works, how everybody-- >> Joe: Is security on your radar? >> Security is very much on our radar, in fact, someone who you should have on your show is Asheesh Guptar, and Casey Ella, so she's just joined Bug Crowd as the CEO and Casey moves over to CTO, and the word Bug Bounty was just entered into the Oxford Dictionary for the first time last week, so that to me is the ultimate in category creation. So security and dev ops tools are among the things that we really like. >> And bounties will become the norm as more and more decentralized apps hit the scene. Are you doing anything on decentralized applications? I'm not saying Blockchain in particular, but Blockchain like apps, distributing computing you're well versed on. >> That's right, well we-- >> Blockchain will have an impact in your area. >> Blockchain will have an impact, we just spent an hour talking about it in the context our off site in Decosona Lodge in Pascadero, it felt like it was important that we go there. And digging into it. I think actually the edge computing is actually more actionable for us right now, given the things that we're, given the things that we're interested in, and we're doing and they, it is just fascinating how compute centralizes and then decentralizes, centralizes and then decentralizes again, and I do think that there are a set of things that are fascinating about what your process at the edge, and what you send back to the core. >> As Pet Gelson here said in the QU, if you're not out in front of that next wave, you're driftwood, a lot of big waves coming in, you've seen a lot of waves, you were part of one that changed the world, Netscape browser, or the business plan for that first project manager, congratulations. Now you're at a whole nother generation. You ready? (laughs) >> Absolutely, I'm totally ready, I'm ready to go. >> Greg Sands here in The Cube in New York City, part of Big Data NYC, more live coverage with The Cube after this short break, thanks for watching. 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