>>Good morning. It's the cube live from Las Vegas. This is day four of our coverage at AWS reinvent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. We have had since Monday two live sets two remote studios over 100 guests on the program. This is a 10th annual reinvent. We're talking about the next decade of cloud innovation and we're pleased to welcome Ashley Kramer, the chief product officer and chief marketing officer of Sisense to the program. Welcome Ashley, thanks for having me today. So you own marketing and product. Tell me a little bit about your role. Obviously that's done. >>It's a big role. It has a big role, but I think as the analytics ecosystem has evolved, it makes sense to bring the product you're building the platform you're building and the messaging that you're taking to market together in one. And so I've been in size since almost two years, and I am responsible for both the messaging and the building of the product. >>Awesome. Talk to me a little bit about the next generation of business intelligence. Define Gen-Z one, two and where we are with three. >>Yeah. So when we think about the generations of analytics and we think about how the world is evolved, we're here clearly at a cloud conference, data apps, and the way people work has evolved over time. And I think analytics hasn't quite kept up and I'll explain what I mean about that. The first generation of analytics was really about, you know, that we're talking by the way, late nineties, early two thousands, big on-premise servers of data, things that would make people here sort of cringe, right? And the way to extract value was to put an analytics server right next to it, go wait in line, ask her it, Hey, I need a report. And then wait a few weeks. That report gets delivered. It's the wrong data. It's now stale. You've got to go get back in line, enter gen two, which by the way, I was a part of in my career at Tableau. >>And what we said was let's put data at everybody's fingertips. Let's allow people via desktop tool to drag and drop and build the perfect, beautiful dashboard. And then we can deploy it to everybody and we will break down that barrier to it. And that was successful. But the one thing that we didn't understand was not, everybody's an analyst, not everybody's data literate and dashboards could be very, very intimidating to the everyday worker. And so now we're on the cusp of what we call gen three and sysynced is well-positioned to really nail this market, which is make data invisible, make analytics invisible, and bring it to where people are. And that's what we consider gen three. And I of course can talk about that for hours. So I'd love to talk more about it. >>So are the lines blurred between what people think of as artificial intelligence and BI, because you're talking about, um, you know, making this invisible or transparent, you know, frictionless access, um, are you talking recommendations or just a presentation of raw information? How are those two topics, interleaved >>Talking both. And so what's, what's really beautiful about this is the dashboard doesn't have to go away, but you have to break it apart and you have to make it less intimidating, more approachable, more understandable, which is where AI comes in natural language generation, natural language querying maybe for some people, maybe for a doctor, they want to see the data presented in plain text, plain English. Great. Let them do that. And so AI is a big, big piece of this gen three. When we think about where BI and analytics is evolving to. So >>Like it, from a customization perspective, you're going to be able to allow people in healthcare, finance, marketing, sales, operations products, be able to have data at their fingertips when they need it. Because one of the things that we learned in the pandemic is that access to real-time data is no longer a nice to have it's required. But to your point, if it's intimidating or if it's inaccessible, or if it's too complicated, it's not useful. >>That's right. And what we also learned during the pandemic is people are busy and they don't have time to change what they're doing. They don't have time to leave their everyday workflow and process to go look for something. They don't have time to look for an unnatural experience and try to interpret what it says. So customization is a huge piece of this, make it look and feel the way that a healthcare worker needs it to look and feel, make it look and feel the way that, you know, a construction worker makes it as part of their everyday job. And that's a core piece of gen three as well. >>What are some of the things that you guys are doing with AWS? Obviously, AWS, very, very customer focused. They always talk about working backwards from the customer, really this customer obsession. What are some of the things that you guys are working on together that your joint customers will benefit from? >>Fun fact, I was Amazonian as part of my career. So I grew up with Amazon in the early days of AWS. And we are very close partners with them from two really big perspectives. The first is the data's moving there, all of the data, particularly things like red shift. And that is a perfect place for size sense to sit right on top of that data, query it live, bring that and extract it to people in the way that they need it to consume. It really make data-driven decisions. The second piece is, um, and we saw a great keynote yesterday by Swami, which is the AI piece of the story, the comprehend, the Lexio, you know, really bringing to people, the data and the information and the way they need, and that all plugs into the size sense experience. And we can be that visual front end layer on top of all of those services. >>So where you sit because of your purview, looking at product marketing, and then let's, let's make, let's make the third point in the triangle, the customer always what, from your perspective, because you're thinking in terms of product customer requirements, and then you're thinking about how do you get the message across to make sure people understand what you're doing? What does a delighted customer sound like to you? What makes you smile? When someone says, Hey, Ashley, we have this customer who absolutely loves us. And these are the things they love about us. What does, what does that sound like? >>Really a very, very simple thing to answer because through my career too often, and I've read products at all of the companies I've worked for, you sell these big deals and you help them be successful with one use case. And you come back a year later in three people in the organization are actually using that solution to make data-driven decisions. So my perfect customer is, you know, we take them by the hand, we help them deploy that we come back a year later and the entire organization, all of their customers are using the solution because we've made it more approachable, more personalized and less intimidating. >>So what's the opposite of shelf ware. That's what you just described >>The opposite of shelfware and that breaks down every stat you see out there, there's a really widely known one that, um, less than 30% of organizations are actually successful with their analytics solutions. And my theory, my thesis and the research that we've done is that's exactly why it's too intimidating. It's too clunky and it's too disjointed. >>So talk to me, I, one of the things I think is the best validation of brand can get is the voice of the customer. I agree with you that it's, it's exciting when you, cause there's, there's so many, there's so many tools and you just mentioned the stat, um, in terms of adoption, but share with us a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what you're talking about. That gen three BI customizable, personable, what customer comes to mind are customers. You have. >>So one of my favorites is a company called outreach and what outreach outreach caters to is sales. It's, you know, early sales, sales enablement, helping people understand which customers should I go target. And should I go sell to, these are not analysts using the platform. And when outreach came to us, they said, we want data and analytics to drive our experience for all of our customers. But these are young salespeople. They can't just be looking at dashboards. And so what we've done with them is we were actually the AI engine that drives the experience. And as that BDR, ADR SDR gets in there, they're actually using analytics to figure out who to call what account is hot, what to do next, and right. They're actioning right in the experience. And they have no clue that they're will using data. And that's okay. And they're optimized. They're more efficient at their job because science is powering that experience. >>So they could be in Salesforce and accessing this, like under the covers, not even knowing it, they have no idea >>Exactly >>What they're empowered with BI AI to be able to make decisions. >>And they're becoming better at their jobs because they're using data and they're not learning a new skill set because they don't have time. There's no time. >>That's a great point. One of the other points that we've heard a lot, the last three days is every company has to become a data company. One thing to say it whole other can of worms, right? To actually enable it. Because to your point earlier, you have access to data it's confusing or it's stale. There's a competitor right here. Ready to take over. Talk to me about how your customer conversations have changed, especially in the last 22 months about how do we become data really? Data-driven, >>That's, that's interesting because if you would've asked me two, three years ago, I would have given you this big pitch on, well, we need to go in and help them build this culture of data and analytics, right? We're going to go in and help them. That has changed. What we need to do now is accept that building. That whole culture is too hard to do. It requires people to go beyond their job and really learn a new skill set. So what we do is we make every company, a data company by not necessarily making them really realize that they're using analytics and data. We're making it personalized. We're removing the nuances that come with building the state of literacy culture. So yes, you still need to build the culture around it and have the support, but you need it to be less intimidating and you need it to just be part of the everyday workflow, the everyday process, the everyday experience, regardless of job title. There's another interesting stat that there's over 1 billion knowledge workers out there that are underserved. That's the barrier we need to break down. Next analysts are happy. Data scientists are happy. They have what they need. How do we get what they're doing to those 1 billion plus underserved knowledge workers. >>So when you're in customer conversations and they're like, Ashley, help us figure this out. >>You say, we go in and we show, you know, we, we figure out what their business case is. And they very often say, okay, let's start with a big, huge dashboard. Step them back and say, what are you really trying to solve? Okay. You want that doctor to be more efficient? You want to triage more properly, maybe right there within your system, within your medical system. We're just going to pop, you know, we're going to pull data out of red shift and we're just going to pop some insights there. Some recommendations, as you mentioned earlier, some plain text, we'll give you a search experience so you can search, you know, what beds are open and it will bring it back to you the way that you understand how to work, you don't have to change. >>And that's critical because one of the things that we talk about all the time is change management, cultural change. It's really hard to do, especially given the dynamics of the environment that we're in. People are still scattered, working from anywhere. That's going to persist for a while. We need to meet them where they are >>Absolutely a hundred percent nailed it. And I'm going to steal that in my marketing material. Thank you. I'm a marketer trademarks. Um, but absolutely meet them where they are. And you know, everybody wants to evolve. Everybody wants to upscale and you can help them, but don't expect it to happen overnight. And don't expect they're going to take it on as a second job because their core job function is the most critical. >>It's interesting from a marketer's perspective. Um, it's always great to have people running around wearing size sense, hoodies on the customer site what's even better is having them using the product. And maybe they don't even know as long as key stakeholders in the organization knows so that you can drive, you know, drive into the market. But is there anything disheartening about sort of being toiling in obscurity at times? >>It is the hardest part of the CMO hat that I wear is you both are very likely using size sense in something that you're doing and you have no idea. And that is a brand's nightmare. So yes, checking my pockets. In fact, we are giving away Fanny packs. And as soon as I'm done, I will be over here with two Fanny packs for you. Apparently that's the new thing. That's what the kids are doing. Um, but it is very hard. It's um, we have to do more because lots of people are using size sense and actually lots of people at this conference right now, a lot of these vendors have size sense embedded, and they don't necessarily know they're using it. It's a double-edged sword though, >>Because you're saying, you know, the whole point is making analytics invisible. So, but it is, but I'll take the Fanny pack. >>I'll be out. Don't worry about that. Don't you worry? >>So here we are wrapping up 10th annual at reinvent. You were an Amazonian. So you've been to many of these, obviously the first one in two years, there's nothing like the conversations that are going on behind it. There's nothing like an in-person interview to have a really a conversation about the technology. What are some of the things that have you heard at the conference that excite you going into 2022? >>My excitement going in is the focus that everybody's putting just beyond what's next beyond data like the AI, right? The AI perspective of everything, the way that AWS is evolving their data story, lots of serverless spoken by Adam in the first day. And I think there's really, really big things coming. You see the three big clouds competing and making each other better and better. You see vendors like size sense working cross-cloud because everybody has something best in class. And so I am one very excited to be in person and to be shaking hands and hugging friends that I have not seen except over zoom in two years. But I'm really excited for the direction. Particularly AWS is taking the data ecosystem inside sense plans to be a core part of that. >>Awesome. It's exciting. The amount of innovation that has gone on is we think, you know, the next 10 years is we're going to see far more in the next, probably five than we did in the previous 10. Actually. Thank you so much for joining us, talking to us about science. We'll have to, we'll have to think about that. Well, when we get our Fanny pack, so we can talk about science, how we're using it, but awesome. To be able to bring analytics to everyone so that it is invisible, usable, and we can actually extract value from data in real time. Thank you for >>Having me today. Our >>Pleasure for Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube, the global leader in live tech coverage.

>> from New York City. It's the cue covering automation anywhere. Imagine, brought to you by automation anywhere you >> were in midtown Manhattan, at the automation anywhere. Imagine Crawford's twenty nineteen really psyched to be here. Fifteen hundred people talking about our P A. But really, the Rp story is much more than just robotic process. Automation is really a new way to work, which we hear about all over the place and really reimagining what this technology can do. We're excited to have our next guest. She's Shelly Kramer, an analyst and partner for feature research. Shelley, great to see you. >> Great to see you, too. And you got it. >> I got a right. >> You got it. >> Well, you're a very busy lady. Got all kinds of stuff going on, which is what we like. So first off, just kind of Have you been here before? General impressions of the show. >> This is my first, Uh, this is my first, uh, automation anywhere event. And so it's exciting. I write a lot about our PPA and about the future of work and work force transformation. So it's great to be >> here. Yeah. And you just wrote not a super uplifting article linked in about, you know, employee dissatisfaction and some of the issues with employee retention. We talked before. We turn the cameras on about things like calling him human resource is, you know, and human capital there, they're people. And I thought my here really touched on it. Well, in the keynote today that this is not a rip and replace technology for people. This is a tool to help us do our jobs better, just like our laptops and our mobile phones and our application. So are you excited about the opportunity? See, it is this transformative. >> I do see this transformative. And I think that before you talk about what we talked about, the technology that we have to talk about people and Simpson and I'm pulling this out of my memory banks. So on average, about eighty two percent of employees within any organization are disengaged. OK, eighty two percent. >> So the ping pong tables and the tables are not doing it. >> And so when you think about it and engaged workforce are people who wake up in the morning or whatever it is, they go to work and who are excited about what they're doing excited about their company. They're working for love, the culture that they're working within. I love all those things that they're doing. And so when you realize that eighty two percent of people are disengaged, that's problematic. Right then, you're talking about the toughest talent acquisition markets that we've had in a really long time. So we're all fighting for top talent, not just top tech talent but any kind of talent. And so focusing on how we can make the workforce better and create better cultures and put systems and processes in place that can make people do their jobs more efficiently, more productively and actually like them. That's to me. That's the beginning of where we get to this technology piece and what our P a Khun Dio How? Aye aye plays a role in there and how you can. How employees can partner you think of technology as a partner, as opposed to worrying about technology replacing them. So I think it's an exciting time in the workforce, and when you think about it that way, it makes a lot of sense. >> Do you think the difference in kind of the expectations that people have when they Goto work to be engaged as a function of the millennials who are looking for something that's more mission lead. Is it a function of just the competition? It's so robust that before people could get away with having, you know, maybe a less compelling work experience. What do you think is driving? The changer hasn't changed, and maybe now we're just paying more attention to it. >> You know, I think it's changed in a little bit. I think that you and I are old enough that when we were coming of age and we were working our way up the corporate ladder, you know, you kind of sold a little bit of your soul to the company store. No matter. I mean, I gripped in advertising, right, and, you know, I work crazy hours, and I loved it. But I never questioned that there were dues that I had to pay, and that's what you think. And I think that people don't necessarily expect the world on a platter. But I think especially the more skilled you are, whether it's a knowledge of tack or whatever it is in today's market, I think that ueno and again it could be someone my age. It could be someone that's twenty five. It could be someone that's forty. I can find something else. So minute, this isn't doing it for me, right? I can go find something else right now. That said, there are also people who are punching a clock. You know what I'm saying? And I don't mean ship workers. Necessarily. As much as I need to pay the mortgage, I need to get my kid's bed. You know, I don't love this job. Maybe it's a path to something. One of my daughters works for an insurance company. She has a very non glamorous job. She doesn't love it, but she knows she has to do it for X amount of time before she can be considered for this different promotion. And she is watching the clock on literally. I'm getting to that milestone and asking for her promotion. And if that doesn't happen, she'LL leave. So so I think that when you can, people don't feel like they need to be stuck, right? So I think that way. As a CZ leaders and his executives in the workforce, I think you always have to be mindful about what the work environment that you're creating is and focus on. How do we keep how do we get people? And how do we build the value props that we used when we entice them to say yes to our offer? How do we get them to stay? >> S o many things there, But But, you know, what things you just mentioned is is I don't think they accept it like we did. Maybe when we're coming up, which is, you know, you hire somebody and you hire them for the act tributes that they're bringing in the organization than it used to be. Then you give him the employee rulebook and you basically squash, you know, kind of all the individual creativity and ingenuity and enthusiasm, which is why you hired him in the first place. And we don't see that as much anymore. But at the same token, you know, not everyone's worried about robots taken their job at the same time. There's so many unfulfilled Rex out there. And as you said, it's the most competitive labor market out there. How our employers supposed to kind of square that circle because they need to bring the automation they want to keep the people happy. It's a hyper competitive market, and they need mission. But, you know, we gotta pay the bills and get the products out. >> I think that So I think that we can never forget that people that work for our companies need to pay the bills too. Right? So when you can give them something that they could be excited about, Tio dio that helps. Right? But it just kind of like I'm thinking back Teo, uh, presentation and I can't remember his name. But the V p of product did a presentation about today on a loan mortgage loan application. Okay, that has to be like one of the most boring things, right? If you're in that mortgage loan processing, do this. Do this. Do this villain this spreadsheet love about, By the way, I hate creating spreadsheets. I just want to look at a finished one. But anyway, it was so cool to just look at this, and I shot a video of it, shared it on Twitter. If you want to see what I'm talking about, but which is so cool that you can do this and do this and do this and you know you create this process. And in no time the technology has done all the work and all the calculations, and you've got a recommendation approved, not approved. And so if you're in the mortgage loan business, way to think about that leased, the way that I think to think about it is, doesn't mean that your job is going to go away. It's just like my daughter doing that not very exciting job that she's doing. If automation could fuel some of the mundane, repeatable, banal tasks so that she could focus on the other part of the equation where it's more interesting and more exciting, I think then that's really the value equation there. But I think as I think, what businesses have todo is be transparent and very honest with their employees and tell them, you know, this is our This is why we're doing this. This is what our means, and this is how it's going to add value. It we're not doing this to necessarily replace humans. This is so that we can make this work better, efficient more, you know. And I think that you know, I'll step back and say for a personal example. We went through a process last year where we evaluated all of our business processes, and we looked at how much time our employees were spending sweet track time doing certain tasks. And then we were realizing, you know, the value there. We were actually paying too much in terms of the time, investment or tasks that didn't make sense to. Then we set out integrating automation into our processes, and it was it was a big project, right? And people were kind of worried, you know, and they were kind of worried about it. But one of the things that way told them early on with, like, This is not so that we don't have work for you. This is so that we can make what it is you're doing more efficient and you could do things you like better, >> right? Right. >> And so and that has happened and way didn't lose any of our team. And a lot of those task that they were doing are now automated. They're doing stuff that they like more. So I think that I think that's really the challenge for businesses. Two is the messaging right and then involving your teams in the process, appointment of any kind of >> technology. I think it's just the soul crushing. You know, expression is so it's so valid for for these types of activities. And I think again may hear had a great stat. Four percent of US jobs required a medium level of creativity, which you know people want to get out from under that. But if we can define it as a tool and is a thinking like personal digital assistants, my body will. That used to be just my palm three was my p d. A. Right wow how no. One No one was threatened by the Palm taking the job away. So I think you know, you're right. If we can put it in the context of it's just another tool that's just gonna help you get your job done. That's a very different way to frame the problem versus kind of just ripping replace narrative, which we hear kind of over and over again. >> Well, and I think it also goes beyond Jeff. It's goes beyond, and I think that employees at every level have to understand this. It goes beyond just helping you get your job done. It really is about, you know, cos that survived today and tomorrow are the companies who transformed. And, you know, we talk a lot about digital transformation. And you know, I'm out there on the front lines all day, every day, and I can promise you there are many, many companies who are far from really understanding and embracing this and understanding what it takes from a technology standpoint and the value, that data ad and how to use that data and and the impact that that has on customer experience and all that sort of thing. So So I think it's really is about much more than this will make your jobs suck less >> right, right, Right. >> I think it's about this is how our company stay successful. This is how you helped make your job in the role you play within our organization, what you want it to be, right? And I think that you could probably telling, you know, I've been marketing because I'm always thinking about you know how I know how you spend something and I don't mean in a spin like a PR way, but I think we all have to step back and think about it in terms of the whole equation. And there are a whole lot of companies that don't exist anymore, right? You know whether you're talking about the financial services sector and you know and every business everywhere is being disrupted. I told this story. I was I was talking with me here earlier this morning and I was telling him a story about how my husband, I just bought a new car and we expected to get a loan for that car from our community. It's not a community from our our local bank local. Our local bank has been recently purchased by a bigger bank in the last couple of years, but we run all of our corporate money. I mean, everything that we've ever done is here in this way. You know your spell. ITA loan application. No problem. Give us an interest rate. No problem. But they made every part. My husband I vote travel a lot for business, and they're every part of the process required us to be somewhere together to have an official closing. To do this, to do that and it was just like way could never purchased this car because they were making it so difficult for us. So we enter death talking with the car dealer who said I'm not God. We can fix you up, financed it through their banking partner, which is a huge national bank approved in five minutes. Loan documents in five minutes. Hey, come on out. You sign this tomorrow? He consigned this when he gets, you know. And when I talked to my bank after the transaction, they said, Here's the deal. I wanted to do business with you. But when you make it difficult for a customer to give you their money, they're not gonna hesitate to give somebody else there money, Right? So So I think the banking industry is one example of the these processes that air so cumbersome that in some ways can be automated, but it just it doesn't make sense. And customers today you and I are impatient people as our people younger than we are way. No, there has to be a better way. An analogy could give us a better >> win it right, And, you know, they could use different data sets. And I mean, I've bought himself recently, and you just push the button on the phone and it takes a minute. The wheel spins and then your approved right and you're done if you're done, and it's it's a completely different experience. But the part about the digital transformation I want to follow because it came up today where a lot of times people are the integration point between these systems very similar to the example you just used and you can't digitally transform. If all these automated systems ultimately have the bottleneck through some person to take this piece Veda and stick it over there, right? So it's it's absolutely critical to get those people out of the way, right? So as you look forward twenty nineteen, what are some of the big trends beyond our P A and kind of personal digital assistants not called palm, uh, that you're seeing and that you're excited about? >> Well, I think that, you know, it's hard not to be excited about our p A. Just simply because of, you know, it's predicted to be a one point nine billion this year and to almost double by twenty twenty one. I mean, it makes sense that companies like automation anywhere doubling down on that right. It also makes sense that gigantic companies like IBM and Jo Lloyd and you know why. I mean, you >> know, hearing for >> all here, right? There's a reason for that, right? Because IBM customers want this and Microsoft's customers want this. So So I think that in general I think that technology is fueling our world. Our personal lives are business world, and I think that probably one of the biggest things that I pay attention to to that we pay attention to is that technology alone isn't the answer. It's the partnership of human beings and their skill sets and capabilities and data and automation and artificial intelligence and all those things. So I think that I think that it's an incredibly exciting time. It's kind of like, you know, you you go back to the video that we saw this morning in the bit about the Internet, and I don't know if you remember this. I don't know, probably. I don't know how much older I am than you, but, you know, I remember that Internet machine and wow, this is like I could send an email, you know? And then when you think about right how and those comments, You know that Matt Lauer and Katie Couric we're making it like that weren't down comments we didn't didn't know, right? Know the impact Internet could have would have, you know. And so I think the same is true of this kind of technology today. This this next generation of technology. So there's not just one thing I'm interested. I'm interested in Element. >> Gotta keep learning right because way have a hard time with were very linear and everything is growing exponentially. So you got a got to be willing. Teo learned the next thing because it's right around the corner, >> and I think that's so key. That's that's a great rap. I think that people who are happiest today are people who actually love change and who love learning. And I would say I would posit that most that those air not inherently things that people trades that people possess. I'm lucky because I do. You see what I'm saying? I think it's >> an interesting question, whether that's inherent. If there's just people that liked the learning, our curious all the time, and that and then they got to stick in the muds and Candice stick in the muds, change your attitude and become learners again. >> Maybe they won't. I mean, you know, I think that they're I do think that there are are people who are wired to like change and two are curious and who loved learning. And I think there are a whole bunch of people who are not. And I would I truly believe that for success in today's world and moving forward for young people and not so young people, you better get there if that's not your deal, because I don't think that I did it. And I have stumbled across conversations of people having like, you know, that's not gonna happen, you know? So I don't have to worry about it because I'm gonna be outta here by then. Or and you know what? There are a whole bunch of people that have that mindset, and that's a okay, but especially for young people making their way, >> they okay mindset. But it's not the fact that that's the problem. It's it's happening now. I mean, the future is here, and it's happening at a faster pace. Well, Shelley, we could go on and on and on, but we're going to leave it there. And I appreciate you taking a few minutes out of your day. >> Absolutely. My pleasure. >> All right. She Shelly, I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. Where? Automation anywhere. Imagine in Midtown Manhattan. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of PegaWorld iNspire, brought to you by Pegasystems. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of PegaWorld iNspire 2020. And now that the dust has settled on the event, we wanted to have a little postmortem power panel, and I'm really excited to have three great guests here today. Adrian Swinscoe is a customer service and experience advisor and the best-selling author of a couple of books: "How to Wow" and "Punk CX." Adrian great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Hey Dave. >> And Shelly Kramer's a principal, analyst, and a founding partner at Futurum Research, CUBE alum. Shelly, good to see you. >> Hi, great to see you too. >> And finally, Don Schuerman who is the CTO of Pegasystems and one of the people that was really highlighting the keynotes. Don, thanks for your time, appreciate you coming on. >> Great to be here. >> Guys, let's start with some of the takeaways from the event, and if you don't mind I'm going to set it up. I had some, I had many many notes. But I'll take a cue from Alan's keynote, where he talked about three things: rethinking the customer engagement, that whole experience, that as a service, I'm going to say that certainly the second part of last decade came to the front and center and we think is going to continue in spades. And then new tech, we heard about that. Don we're going to ask you to chime in on that. Modern software, microservices, we've got machine intelligence now. And then I thought there were some really good customer examples. We heard from Siemens, we heard from the CIO and head of digital at Aflac, the Bank of Australia. So, some really good customer examples. But Shelly, let me start with you. What were your big takeaways of PegaWorld iNspire 2020, the virtual edition? >> You know, what I love is a focus, and we have talked a lot about that here at Futurum Research, but what I love is the thinking that what really is important now is to think about rethinking and kind of tearing things apart. Especially when we're in a time, we're in difficult economic times, and so instead of focusing on rebuilding and relaunching as quickly as possible, I think that now's the time to really focus on reexamining what is it that our customers want? How is it that we can best serve them? And really sort of start from ground zero and examine our thinking. And I think that's really at the heart of digital transformation, and I think that both in this virtual event and in some interviews I was lucky enough to do in advance with some of the Pega senior team, that was really a key focus, is really thinking about how we can re-architect things, how we can do things in ways that are more efficient, that impact people more effectively, that impact the bottom line more effectively. And to me that's really exciting. >> So Adrian, CX is obviously your wheelhouse. A lot of the conversation at PegaWorld iNspire was of course about customer experience, customer service. How do you think the content went? What were some of the highlights for you? And maybe, what would you have liked to hear more of? >> Well I think, thanks Dave, I actually really enjoyed it. I actually kind of thought was, first of all I should say that I've been to a bunch of virtual summits and I thought this was one of the best ones I've done in terms of its pace and its interactivity. I love the fact that Don was bouncing around the screen, kind of showing us around the menu and things. I thought that was great. But the things that I thought really stood out for me was this idea of the context around accelerating digital transformation. And that's very contextual, it's almost being forced upon us. But then this idea of also the center-out thinking and the Process Fabric. Because it really reminded me of, and Don you can maybe correct me if I'm wrong here, is taking a systems-thinking approach to delivering the right outcomes for customers. Because it's always struck me that there's a contradiction at the heart of the rhetoric around customer-centricity where people say they want to do the right things by customers but then they force them down this channel-centric or process-centric way of thinking. And so actually I thought it was really refreshing to hear about this center-out and Process Fabric platform that Pega's building. And I thought it's really exciting because it felt like actually we're going to start to take a more systemic look and take to delivering great service and great experience. So I thought that was really great. Those were my big headlines out of the summit. >> So Don, one of the-- >> Adrian I think-- >> Go ahead, please. >> Yeah, I think the whole idea, you know, and Alan referred to center-out as a business architecture, and I think that's really an important concept because this is really about the intersection of that business goal. How do I truly become customer-centric? And then how do I actually make my technology do it? And it's really important for that to work where you put your business logic in the technology. If you continue to do it in the sort of channel-centric way or really data-centric, system-centric way that historically has been the approach, I don't think you can build a sustainable platform for great customer engagement. So I think that idea of a business architecture that you clued in on a little bit is really central to how we've been thinking about this. >> Let's stay on that for a second. But first of all, I just want to mention, you guys did a good job of not just trying to take a physical event and plug in into virtual. So congratulations on that. The virtual clicker toss, and you know, you were having some fun eating your eggs. I mean that was, that's great. And the Dropkick Murphys couldn't be live, but you guys still leveraged that, so well done. One of the better ones that I've seen. But I want to stay on your point there. Alan talked about some of the mistakes that are made, and one of the questions I have for you guys is, what is the state of customer experience today, and why the divergence between great, and good, and pretty crappy? And Alan talked about, well, people try to impose business process top-down, or they try to infuse logic in the database bottom-up. You really got to do that middle-out. So, Don I want to come back to you. Let's explore that a little bit. What do you really mean by middle-out? Where am I putting the actual business logic? >> Yeah, I think this is important, right. And I think that a lot of time we have experiences as customers. And I had one of these recently with a cable provider, where I spent a bunch of time on their website chatting with a chatbot of some kind, that then flipped me over to a human. When the chatbot flipped me to the human, the human didn't know what I was doing with the chatbot. And that human eventually told me I had to call somebody. So I picked up the phone, I made the phone call. And that person didn't know what I was doing on chat with the human or with the chatbot. So every time there's a customer, I'm restarting. I'm reexplaining where I am. And that to me is a direct result of that kind of channel-centric thinking, where all of my business logic ends up embedded in, "Well hey, we're going to build a cool chatbot. "And now we're going to build a cool chat system. "And by the way, "we're going to keep our contact centers running." But I'm not thinking holistically about the customer experience. And that's why we think this center-out approach is so important, because I want to go below the channel. And I want to think about that customer journey. What's the outcome I'm trying to get to? In the case of my interaction, I was just trying to increase my bandwidth so that I could do events like this, right? What's that outcome that I'm trying to get to and how do I get the customer to that outcome in a way that's as efficient for the business and as easy for the customer as possible regardless of what channel they're on. And I think that's a little bit of a new way of thinking. And again, it means thinking not just about the customer goal, but having an opinion, whether you are a business leader or an IT person, about where that logic belongs in your architecture. >> So, Adrian. Don just described the sort of bot and human experience, which mimics a lot of the human experience that we've all touched in the past. So, but the customer journey that Don talked about isn't necessarily one journey. There's multiple journeys. So what's your take on how organizations can do better with that kind of service. >> Well I think you're absolutely right, Dave. I mean, actually during the summer I was talking, I was listening to Paul Greenberg talk about the future of customer service. And Paul said something that I think was really straightforward but really insightful. He said, "Look, organizations think about customer journeys "but customers don't think about journeys "in the way that organizations do. "They think discontinuously." So it's like, "I'm going to go to channel one, "and then channel three, and then channel four, "and then channel five, and then back to channel two. "And then back to channel five again." And they expect those conversations to be picked up across those different channels. And so I think what we've got to do is develop, as Don said, build an architecture that is, that works around trying to support the different journeys but allows that flexibility and that adaptability for customers to jump around and to have one of those continuous but disconnected conversations. But it's up to us to try and connect them all, to deliver the service and experience that the customers actually want. >> Now Shelly, a lot of the customer experience actually starts with the employees, and employees don't like when the customer is yelling at them saying, "I just answered all those questions. "Why do I have to answer them again?" So you've, at your firm, you guys have written a lot about this, you've thought a lot about it, you have some data I know you shared on theCUBE one time that 80% of employees are disengaged. And so, that affects the customer experience, doesn't it? >> Yeah it does, you know. And I think that when I'm listening to Don's explanation about his cable company, I'm having flashbacks to what feels like hundreds of my own experiences. And you're just thinking, "This does not have to be this complicated!" You know, ten years ago that same thing that Don just described happened with phone calls. You know, you called one person and they passed you off to somebody else, and they passed you off to somebody else, and you were equally as frustrated as a customer. Now what's happening a lot of times is that we're plugging technology in, like a chat bot, that's supposed to make things better but we're not developing a system and processes throughout our organization, and also change management, what do I want to say, programs within the organization and so we're kind of forgetting all of those things. So what's happening is that we're still having customers having those same experiences that are a decade old, and technology is part of the mix. And it really shouldn't be that way. And so, one thing that I really enjoyed, speaking about employees, was listening to Rich Gilbert from Aflac. And he was talking about when you're moving from legacy processes to new ones, you have to plan for and invest in change management. And we talk about this all the time here at Futurum, you know technology alone is never the answer. It's technology plus people. And so you have to invest in people, you have to invest in their training in order to be able to support and manage change and to drive change. And I think one really important part of that equation is also listening to your employees and getting their feedback, and making them part of the process. Because when they are truly on your front lines, dealing with customers, many times dealing with stressed, upset, frustrated customers, you know, they have a lot of insights. And sometimes we don't bring them into those conversations, certainly early enough in the process to help, to let them help guide us in terms of the solutions and the processes that we put in place. I think that's really important. >> Yeah, a lot of-- >> Shelly, I think-- >> If I may, a lot of the frustration with some employees sometimes is those processes change, and they're unknown going into it. We saw that with COVID, Don. And so, your thoughts on this? >> Yeah, I mean, I think the environment employees are working in is changing rapidly. We've got a customer, a large telecommunications company in the UK where their customer service requests are now being handled by about 4,000 employees pulled from their marketing department working distributed because that's the world that we're in. And the thing I was going to say in response to Shelly is, Alan mentioned in his keynote this idea of design thinking. And one of the reasons why I think that's so important is that it's actually about giving the people on the front lines a voice. It's a format for engaging the employees who actually know the day-to-day experiences of the customers, the day-to-day experiences of a customer service agent, and pulling them into the solution. How do we develop the systems, how do we rethink our processing, how does that need to plug into the various channels that we have? And that's why a lot of our focus is not just on the customer service technology, but the underlying low code platform that allows us to build those processes and those chunks of the customer journey. We often refer to them as "microjourneys" that lead to a specific outcome. And if you're using a low code based platform, something that allows anybody to come in and define that process, you can actually pull employees from the front lines and put them directly on your project teams. And all of a sudden you get better engagement but you also get this incredible insight flowing into what you're doing because you're talking to the people who live this day in and day out. >> Well and when you have-- >> So let's stay on this for a second, if we can. Shelly, go ahead please. >> Sure. When you have a chance to talk with those people, to talk with those front line employees who are having an opportunity to work with low code, no code, they get so excited about it and their jobs are completely, the way they think about their jobs and their contribution to the company, and their contribution to the customer, and the customer experience, is just so wonderful to see. And it's such an easy thing to do, so I think that that's really a critical part of the equation as it relates to success with these programs. >> Yeah, staying close to the customer-- >> Can I jump in? >> Yeah, please Adrian. >> Can I jump in on that a little, a second. I think Shelly, you're absolutely right. I think that it's a really simple thing. You talk about engagement. And one of the key parts of engagement, it seems to me, is that, is giving people a voice and making them feel important and feel heard. And so to go and ask for their opinion and to help them get involved and make a difference to the work that they do, the outcomes that their customers receive, and the overall productivity and efficiency, can only have a positive impact. And it's almost like, it feels self-evident that you'd do that but unfortunately it's not very common. >> Right. It does feel self-evident. But we miss on that front a lot. >> So I want to ask, I'm going to come back to, we talked about people process, we'll come back to that. But I want to talk about the tech. You guys announced, the big announcement was the Pega Process Fabric. You talked about that, Don, as a platform for digital platforms. You've got all these cool microservices and dynamic APIs and being able to compose on the fly, so some pretty cool stuff there. I wonder, with the virtual event, you know, with the physical event you've got the hallway traffic, you talk to people and you get face-to-face reactions. Were you able to get your kind of real-time reactions to the announcement? What was that like? Share with us please. >> Yeah, so, we got well over 1,000 questions in during the event and a lot of them were either about Process Fabric or comments about it. So I think people are definitely excited about this. And when you strip away all of the buzzwords around microservices and cloud, et cetera, I think what we're really getting at here is that work is going to be increasingly more distributed. We are living proof of that right now, the four of us all coming here from different studios. But work is going to be distributed for a bunch of reasons. Because people are more distributed, because organizations increasingly are building customer journeys that aren't just inside their walls, but are connected to the partners and their ecosystem. I'm a bank but I may, as part of my mortgage process, connect somebody up to a home insurer. And all of a sudden the home buying process goes beyond my four walls. And then finally, as you get all of these employees engaged with building their low code apps and being citizen developers, you want to let the 1,000 flowers to bloom but you also need a way to connect that all back together. And Process Fabric is about putting the technology in place to allow us to take these distributed bits of work that we need to do and weave them together into experiences that are coherent for a customer and easy for an employee to navigate. Because I think it's going to be really really important that we do that. And even as we take our systems and break them up into microservices, well customers don't interact with microservices. Customers interact with journeys, with experiences, with the processes you lay out, and making sure we can connect that up together into something that feels easy for the customer and the employee, and gets them to that result they want quickly, that's what the vision of Process Fabric is all about. >> You know, it strikes me, I'm checking my notes here. You guys talked about a couple of examples. One was, I think you talked about the car as sort of a mobility experience, maybe, you know, it makes me wonder with all this AI and autonomous vehicle stuff going on, at what point is owning and driving your own vehicle really going to be not the norm anymore? But you talked about this totally transformed, sorry to use that word, but experience around autos. And certainly financial services is maybe a little bit more near-term. But I wonder Shelly, Futurum, you know, you guys look ahead, how far can we actually go with AI in this realm? >> Well, I think we can go pretty far and I think it'll happen pretty fast. And I think that we're seeing that already in terms of what happened when we had the Coronavirus COVID-19, and of course we're still navigating through that, is that all of a sudden things that we talked about doing, or thought about doing, or planned doing, you know later on in this year or 2021, we had to do all of those things immediately. And so again, it is kind of like ripping the Bandaid off. And we're finding that AI plays a tremendously important role in relieving the workload on the frontline workers, and being able to integrate empathy into decision making. And you know, I go back to, I remember when you all first rolled out the empathy part of your platform, Don, and just watching a demo on that of how you can slide this empathy meter to be warmer, and see in true dollars and cents over time the impact of treating your customers with more empathy, what that delivers to a company. And I think that AI that continues to build and learn and again, what we're having right now, is we're having this gigantic volume of needs, of conversation, of all these transactions that need to happen at once, and great volumes make for better outcomes as it relates to artificial intelligence and how learning can happen more quickly over time. So I think that it's, we're definitely going to see more use of AI more rapidly than we might've seen it before, and I don't think that's going to slow down, at all. Certainly, I mean there's no reason for it to slow down. The benefits are tremendous. The benefits are tremendous, and let me step back and say, following a conversation with Rob Walker on responsible AI, that's a whole different ball of wax. And I think that's something that Pega has really embraced and planted a flag in. So I think that we'll see great things ahead with AI, and I think that we'll see the Pega team really leading as it relates to ethical AI. And I think that's tremendously important as well. >> Well that's the other side of the coin, you know. I asked how far can we go and I guess you're alluding to how far should we go. But Adrian, we also heard about agility and empathy. I mean, I want an empathic service provider. Are agility and empathy related to customer service, and how so? >> Well, David, I think that's a great question. I think that, you talk about agility and talk about empathy, and I think the thing is, what we probably know from our own experience is that being empathetic is sometimes going to be really hard. And it takes time, and it takes practice to actually get better at it. It's almost like a new habit. Some people are naturally better at it than others. But you know, organizationally, I talk about that we need to almost build, almost like an empathetic musculature at an organizational level if we're going to achieve this. And it can be aided by technology, but we, when we develop new muscles it takes time. And sometimes you go through a bit of pain in doing that. So I think that's where the agility comes in, is that we have to test and learn and try new things, be willing to get things wrong and then correct, and then kind of move on. And then learn from these kind of things. And so I think the agility and empathy, it does go hand in hand and it's something that will drive growth and increasing empathetic interactions as we go forward. But I think it's also, just to build on Shelly's point, I think you're absolutely right that Pega has been leading the way in this sort of dimension, in terms of its T-switch and its empathetic advisor. But now the ethical AI testing or the ethical bias testing adds a dimension to that to make sure it's not just about all horsepower, but being able to make sure that you can steer your car. To use your analogy. >> So AI's coming whether we like it or not. Right, Shelly? Go ahead. >> It is. One real quick real world example here is, you know, okay so we have this time when a lot of consumers are furloughed. Out of work. Stressed about finances. And we have a lot of Pega's customers are in the financial services space. Some of the systems that they've established, they've developed over time, the processes they've developed over time is, "Oh, I'm talking with Shelly Kramer and she has a "blah-blah-blah account here. "And this would be a great time to sell her on "this additional service," or whatever. And when you can, so that was our process yesterday. But when you're working with an empathic mindset and you are also needing to be incredibly agile because of current circumstances and situations, your technology, the platform that you're using, can allow you to go, "Okay I'm dealing "with a really stressed customer. "This is not the best time "to offer any additional services." Instead what we need to ask is this series of questions: "How can we help?" Or, "Here are some options." Or whatever. And I think that it's little tweaks like that that can help you in the customer service realm be more agile, be more empathetic, and really deliver an amazing customer experience as a result. And that's the technology. >> If I could just add to that. Alan mentioned in his keynote a specific example, which is Commonwealth Bank of Australia. And they were able, multiple times this year, once during the Australian wildfires and then again in response to the COVID crisis, to completely shift and turn on a dime how they interacted with their customer, and to move from a prioritization of maybe selling things to a prioritization of responding to a customer need. And maybe offering payment deferrals or assistance to a customer. But back to what we were talking about earlier, that agility only happened because they didn't have the logic for that embedded in all their channels. They had it centralized. They had it in a common brain that allowed them to make that change in one place and instantly propagate it to all of the 18 different channels in which they touch their customer. And so, being able to have agility and that empathy, to my mind, is explicitly tied to that concept of a center-out business architecture that Alan was talking about. >> Oh, absolutely. >> And, you know, this leads to discussion about automation, and again, how far can we go, how far should we go? Don, you've been interviewed many many times, like any tech executive, about the impact of AI on jobs. And, you know, the typical response of course is, "No, we want augmentation." But the reality is, machines have always replaced humans it's just, now it's the first time in terms of cognitive function. So it's a little different for us this time around. But it's clear, as I said, AI is coming whether we like it or not. Automation is very clearly on the top of people's minds. So how do you guys see the evolution of automation, the injection of automation into applications, the ubiquity of automations coming in this next decade? Shelly, let's start with you. >> You know, I was thinking you were going to ask Don that question so I'm just listening and listening. (laughing) >> Okay, well we can go with Don, that's-- >> No I'm happy to answer it. It's fine, it just wasn't what I expected. You know, we are really immersed in the automation space. So I very much see the concerns that people on the front line have, that automation is going to replace them. And the reality of it is, if a job that someone does can be automated, it will be automated. It makes sense. It makes good business sense to do that. And I think that what we are looking at from a business agility standpoint, from a business resilience standpoint, from a business survival standpoint, is really how can we deliver most effectively to serve the needs of our customers. Period. And how we can do that quickly and efficiently and without frustration and in a way that is cost effective. All of those things play into what makes a successful business today, as well as what keeps employees, I'm sorry, as well as what keeps customers served, loyal, staying around. I think that we live in a time where customer loyalty is fleeting. And so I think that smart businesses have to look at how do we deepen the relationships that we have with customers? How can we use automation to do that? And the thing about it, you know, I'll go back to the example that Don gave about his cable company that all of us have lived through. It's just like, "Oh my gosh. "There's got to be a better way." So compare that to, and I'm sure all of us can think of an experience where you had to deal with a customer service situation in some way or another, and it was the most awesome thing ever. And you walked away from it and you just went, "Oh my gosh. I know I was talking to a bot here or there." Or, "I know I was doing this, but that solved my problem. "I can't believe it was so easy! "I can't believe it was so easy! "I can't wait to buy something from this company again!" You know what I'm saying? And that's really, I think, the role that automation can play. Is that it can really help deepen existing relationships with our customers, and help us serve them better. And it can also help our employees do things that are more interesting and that are more relevant to the business. And I think that that's important too. So, yes, jobs will go. Yes, automation will slide into places where we've done things manually and repetitive processes before, but I think that's a good thing. >> So, we've got to end it shortly here but I'll give you guys each a last opportunity to chime in. And Adrian, I want to start with you. I invoked the T-word before, transformation, a kind of tongue-in-cheek joking because I know it's not your favorite word. But it is the industry's favorite word. Thinking ahead for the future, we've talked about AI, we've talked about automation, people, process and tech. What do you see as the future state of customer experience, this mix of human and machine? What do we have to look forward to? >> So I think that, first of all, let me tackle the transformation thing. I mean, I remember talking about this with Duncan Macdonald who is the CIO across at UPC, which is one of Pega's customers, on my podcast there the other week. And he talked about, he's the cosponsor of a three year digital transformation program. But then he appended the description of that by saying it's a transformation program that will never end. That's the thing that I think about, because actually, if you think about what we're talking about here, we're not transforming to anything in particular, you know. It's not like going from here to there. And actually, the thing that I think we need to start thinking about is, rather than transformation we actually need to think about an evolution. And adopting an evolutionary state. And we talked about being responsive. We talked about being adaptable. We talked about being agile. We talk about testing and learning and all these different sort of things, that's evolutionary, right? It's not transformational, it's evolutionary. If you think about Charles Darwin and the theory of the species, that's an evolutionary process. And there's a quote, as you've mentioned I authored this book called "Punk CX," there's a quote that I use in the book which is taken from a Bad Religion song called "No Control" and it's called, "There is no vestige of a beginning, "and no prospect of an end." And that quote comes from a 1788 book by James Hutton, which was one of the first treaties on geology, and what he found through all these studies was actually, the formation of the earth and its continuous formation, there is no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end. It's a continuous process. And I think that's what we've got to embrace is that actually change is constant. And as Alan says, you have to build for change and be ready for change. And have the right sort of culture, the right sort of business architecture, the right sort of technology to enable that. Because the world is getting faster and it is getting more competitive. This is probably not the last crisis that we will face. And so, like in most evolutionary things, it wasn't the fittest and the strongest that survived, it was the ones that were most adaptable that survived. And I think that's the kind of thing I want to land on, is actually how, it's the ones that kind of grasp that, grasp that whole concept are the ones that are going to succeed out of this. And, what they will do will be... We can't even imagine what they're going to do right now. >> And, thank you. And Shelly, it's not only responding to, as Adrian was saying, to crisis, but it's also being in a position to very rapidly take advantage of opportunities and that capability is going to be important. You guys are futurists, it's in the name. Your thoughts? >> Well I think that, you know, Adrian's comments were incredibly salient, as always. And I think that-- >> Thank you. >> The thing that this particular crisis that we are navigating through today has in many ways been bad, but in other ways, I think it's been incredibly good. Because it has forced us, in a way that we really haven't had to deal with before, to act quickly, to think quickly, to rethink and to embrace change. Oh, we've got to work from home! Oh, we've got 20 people that need to work from home, we have 20,000 people that need to work from home. What technology do we need? How do we take care of our customers? All of these things we've had to figure out in overdrive. And humans, generally speaking, aren't great at change. But what we are forced to do as a result of this pandemic is change. And rethink everything. And I think that, you know, the point about transformation not being a beginning and an end, we are never, ever, ever done. It is evolutionary and I think that as we look to the future and to one of your comments, we are going faster with more exciting technology solutions out there, with people who are incredibly smart, and so I think that it's exciting and I think that all we are going to see is more and more and more change, and I think it will be a time of great resilience, and we'll see some businesses survive and thrive, and we'll see other businesses not survive. But that's been our norm as well, so I think it's really, I think we have some things to thank this pandemic for. Which is kind of weird, but I also try to be fairly optimistic. But I do, I think we've learned a lot and I think we've seen some really amazing exciting things from businesses who have done this. >> Well thanks for sharing that silver lining, Shelly. And then, Don, I'm going to ask you to bring us to the finish line. And I'm going to close my final question to you, or pose it. You guys had the wrecking ball, and I've certainly observed, when it comes to things like digital transformations, or whatever you want to call it, that there was real complacency, and you showed that cartoon with the wrecking ball saying, "Ehh not in my life, not on my watch. "We're doing fine." Well, this pandemic has clearly changed people's thinking, automation is really top of mind now at executive. So you guys are in a good spot from that standpoint. But your final thoughts, please? >> Yeah, I mean, I want to concur with what Adrian and Shelly said and if I can drop another rock quote in there. This one is from Bob Dylan. And Dylan famously said, "The times they are a changing." But the quote that I keep on my wall is one that he tossed off during an interview where he said, "I accept chaos. "I'm not sure if it accepts me." But I think digital transformation looks a lot less like that butterfly emerging from a cocoon to go off happy to smell the flowers, and looks much more like accepting that we are in a world of constant and unpredictable change. And I think one of the things that the COVID crisis has done is sort of snapped us awake to that world. I was talking to the CIO of a large media company who is one of our customers, and he brought up the fact, you know, like Croom said, "We're all agile now. "I've been talking about five years, "trying to get this company to operate in an agile way, "and all of a sudden we had to do it. "We had no choice, we had to respond, "we had to try new things, we had to fail fast." And my hope is, as we think about what customer engagement and automation and business efficiency looks like in the future, we keep that mindset of trying new things and continuously adapting. Evolving. At the end of the day, our company's brand promise is, "Build for change." And we chose that because we think that that's what organizations, the one thing they can design for. They can design for a future that will continue to change. And if you put the right architecture in place, if you take that center-out mindset, you can support those immediate needs, but set yourself up for a future of continuous change and continuous evolution and adaptation. >> Well guys, I'll quote somebody less famous. Jeff Frick, who said, "The answer to every question "lives somewhere in a CUBE interview." and you guys have given us a lot of answers. I really appreciate your time. I hope that next year at PegaWorld iNspire we can see each other face-to-face and do some live interviews. But really appreciate the insights and all your good work. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Absolutely. >> And thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante and our coverage of PegaWorld iNspire 2020. Be right back, right after this short break. (lighthearted music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course, this year's event happening digitally, we're talking to Red Hat executives, partners, customers, where they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this digital event. And really important topic, of course, has been Automation for a long time, I think back to my career automation is something we've been talking about for decades, but even more important in today's age. Happy to welcome back to the program, Tim Kramer with Red Hat, Vice President of Engineering is that I don't have listed view here. But since we last talked to him at Ansible Fest, has been a little expansion in the scope of what you're working on. First of all, welcome back, and tell us what's new in your world? >> All right, thanks a lot. Yeah, there's been rather substantial change in roles. I'm now in charge actually, of all of the engineering within Red Hat. All the development engineering site includes: the middleware teams, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, of course management and automation, the new team that we just brought over from IBM doing Advanced Container Management. I'm basically running the whole thing and OpenShift of course. >> Excellent. Just a few things to keep you busy. Congratulations on that and love your support in the the Boston "Hello World" rella eight shirt that of course we saw last year at summit. I know one of the things being digital is people do miss some of the t-shirts. I know my family was quite fond of the "May The Fourth Be With You" shirts, that Red Hat did one year at summit. Of course, celebrating Star Wars Day, highly celebrated in in the Miniman household. But Tim, let's talk about Ansible. This brings our audience up to speed, what's happening that some of the latest pieces, and of course, it's been one of the great success stories. Ansible was a lot of adoption before the acquisition, but really accelerated over the last few years? >> At Ansible Fest, we talked a lot about technology to come and showed a few demos of the possibilities. What we have done since then is actually bring all of that technology to life and to expand it. One thing that Red Hat has really done is continue to invest heavily in Ansible, to make sure that we can bring new capabilities and new value to the subscription for everyone. Some of the things that have been happening since summit, which of course we are in, and since Ansible Fest, since we last talked was it, the community continues to scale at a really rapid rate. It's almost hard to keep up. And the number of modules that we have had is grown just tremendously. We have well over 3000 modules now that are available, and as customers and partners and also just casual users are looking through that, it's difficult to figure out: what's really supported? What's really rock solid? What can I count on? And what is, maybe sort of that Wild West community, I'm just trying out some stuff with Ansible and see how it goes. We've been focusing on a lot, is a place that you can come to the Ansible automation platform and the hub where you can now get this content and you can rely on the fact that it's going to be certified by partners, tested by partners, they're always keeping up with the latest updates. A great example of this is, let's just take NetApp or F5, or Cisco as good examples, across the various spaces, we absolutely in the Ansible engineering team are not experts on all of the latest changes, the new hardware coming out, the new software upgrades that they're making. And our ability to keep up with that is pretty difficult. We just can't do it, but they sure can. And their customers, and our customers are both demanding that we give them more content, better content, and we need to be able to do it at the rate that our partners want to be able to provide that kind. As an example, normally we were kind of slowing Ansible down and trying to do one release every six months. But if a new piece of software, a new switch or a new disk array or anything comes out in the meantime, all of our customers had to wait for that next six months release, that was not very convenient. And having an expectation that our partners are going to line up on our schedule is, well, That didn't work out so well for them. We've created the certified content. And we now have the goals to have 50 certified partners. Back at first, I think we had three or four. We're now up to 30, our goal is to hit 50. We had about 100 modules that we showed at fest that were certified, we now have over 1200 modules that are certified content. And these are our partners, creating this content and making it stable and secure for everyone to use. >>So that, I think, by far   >> That was the coolest thing that we've done. >> Yeah, it's great to see that progress. Congratulations on the momentum since Ansible Fest. One of the other things talked about that back at that show, we talked about how analytics and automation, how those are going together, how's adoption been? Is this impossibly met? >> Adoption on the analytic side has been... It's been taking off. It was pretty nascent. I can tell you that, that we've grown by about five X there, but we started a little bit small. We had a few customers that signed up early on to do it. I think probably the more impressive thing is that, we have a couple of customers in markets that you would traditionally think, we're not going to get their data, they're more concerned about what we're sharing, but we have a major bank, we have a major manufacturer that have well over 10,000 systems providing data back into Red Hat that allows us then to analyze and provide a bunch of analytics back on their running estate. And I think that's amazing, seeing the big customers that are coming in from Marcus that you might think, we're probably not going to get a lot of uptake has been really exciting to me. >> All right, you talked a bit about how Ansible fits into the ecosystem, of course being at summit, want to understand a bit more how Ansible the latest of how it's fitting into the rest of the Red Hat portfolio. I've got interviews with Stephanie Shiraz, talking about you, Raul and Joe Fitzgerald, talking about ACM, your group I know is heavily involved working on a lot of those pieces. Help us understand how this is kind of a seamless portfolio. >> I think that's one of the most important things that we do within Red Hat team, is that we have to share the sufficiency across all the product groups and make them better and provide an additional enhanced value there. We've done a lot on the RHEL side, probably one of the maybe lesser known thing is that, we've been working really closely on OpenShift. And actually, we have a lot of customers now that really want the Ansible automation hub available on OpenShift as a first-class application. We're doing things, we're writing operators for those so that we can automate the updates and upgrades and back up and all of that important functionality, so that it's really easy, than to manage your Ansible automation hub, running on OpenShift, that's one big thing. And then we're going to integrate that really well into the advanced container management, that the team from IBM that came over is working towards. I have a really close partnership with ACM team to make sure that we can start to not only gather lists of affected systems, but then take that list and do a bunch of automations against it. >> That's one. On the RHEL side, we've done a lot. We introduced at last summit rally, and we talked about having insights as part of that. Since then, we've been adding more and more capabilities into insights, and to enhance that value of the subscription route. We looked at adding in, well, advisor is now what we used to call insights. It's just something that advises you about problems or issues that may be occurring in your URL instances that are running on prem. We've also added in a drift service, so you can tell if your configurations are sort of drifting apart. We've added in a compliance checker, so you can define some kind of a policy or compliance that you want to enforce on all of your running instances, and we make sure that you're still compliant. We also have a vulnerability detector, which you'd kind of expect, so any nasty security issues that come along, we can pop those up and show you right away. And probably some of the... One of the newer things is, we allow you to do patching. And you can do that patching, right from cloud@redhat.com. We also have another new very exciting feature, which is Subscription Watch, also on cloud@redhat.com. And what this allows you to do is to see and manage all of your subscriptions across your entire hybrid estate. From what you're running on prem, to what you're running in any of the public clouds, we can actually track that for you. You can see what kind of usage you have. And then, make better economic decisions for yourself, and then be able to easily expand that usage if you want to, it used to be a little bit more difficult to do that. We're trying to make subscriptions just like as much in the background as possible to make it easier for our customers. >> Tim, one of one of the big changes customers have to go through is moving from, their environment in their data centers, to the leverage of SaaS and managing things that are outside of their control and the public cloud. You've got an engineering development team, and you've got software that went from, mostly going in customers data centers too, you've got SaaS offerings, you're living in the public cloud. Want to understand, what's changing in your world? What advice would you give to other people as to kind of the learnings that Red Hat has had going through those pieces? >> It's actually a kind of a neat story, because after we change to start making a lot of our services that we had just only shipping products on prem into cloud based services, we had to develop this platform to be able to host all of these services. We started with the insights platform, because we already had that running out in the public cloud. So that was the obvious first thing to base everything on. But we had to build out that platform so that it could support all these services, the ones I just talked about, that are with REL are really good examples. Between a policy, compliance drift, all of these different kinds of services that we're offering, we had to build out that set of capabilities and services in what we're calling sort of the cloud@redhat.com platform. What I'm seeing is that a lot of customers are going through some of these same kinds of thoughts. Like they have a myriad, let's say of applications that are running that they're trying to provide back into their their own company. Different divisions of a company, they have things that are running in the cloud, some things that are running on prem, and they want to start to be able to offer a more cohesive set of services, consolidate some of these, share some of the engineering effort that they have across their various teams. This is exactly the journey that we went through to get to cloud@redhat.com. Finding a surprising number of customers that are actually really interested just in that story, about how we did that. One of the things that we've found is, we've been working with the folks at the open innovation labs within Red Hat. And this is one of the transformation stories that they see constantly as well. We've worked with them and shared this, they're a great resource to help customers kind of think through that problem and get them into a new kind of a platform. But it's quite a journey. We've been really focused on the infrastructure and on prem. Moving to the cloud was a big. But I'll tell you it engineering can move so much faster in a SaaS service than it can with on prem software delivery. It's been remarkable how quickly we could get there. >> Tim, one other thing, if I look at Red Hat, you're a global company, most development organizations are highly distributed to begin with. So many companies today are now having to rapidly figure out how do I manage people that are working from home? How do I live in these environments? From an automation tooling, we'd love to hear any advice you have there, as well as just anything else from your engineering experience in your teams that other people might be able to learn from, as they're dealing with today's landscape. >> To be honest, this is a... We have never seen anything like this in our history, with this kind of pandemic that's happening worldwide. It's shifting everything about business. And it has been challenging just within Red Hat engineering for how we can manage the engineers and their expectations and how difficult it can be to work from home. I have amazing stories from my own engineers. I had an engineer who's in Spain and his wife is a nurse. She's on like 18-hour shifts, the hospital comes back, they have to separate, he's got the kids. And because they don't want them to get infected, it's a really, really difficult working situation for a lot of families out there to try to make it through this. One of the things at Red Hat is, we just have to recognize that it's okay to slow things down a little bit. Let our engineers not feel the pressure that they have to do both childcare and school-at-home and caring for sick relatives or sick family, as well as meet all of your deadlines, it's kind of too much. We've been really... We're trying to be very compassionate with our folks letting them know that we have their back, and it's going to be okay as we try to get ourselves through this ridiculously different time that we've never seen anything like this, like I said. From an engineering perspective, I think work-from-home has been, it's okay for some people. If you have a larger home, I think it's a little easier maybe to find a room that you can go into and do your work. For some, no, if they're in an apartment, or you're sharing with a bunch of friends, it's not your workplace. And it can be really challenging to figure out how to work for eight hours a day with sort of a lot of distractions or just feeling confined and it's just been really difficult for anybody that wants to try to get out, you go a little stir-crazy. The good thing I guess is that engineering is naturally lends itself to being able to be remote and work from home. We have an advantage that way, than other industries, which is great. But it's definitely been really challenging for our teams to be able to cope with this and all we can do is just be really understanding. >> Tim, we appreciate the stories, they're definitely everyone's working through some challenging times. Want to give you the final word as to really takeaways as to what should people be watching? What things should people be going back and looking at from an automation standpoint as they leave Red Hat Summit 2020? >> We're just going to continue to work with the community, work with our partners, get more certified content and continue to scale, the best way that we can for all of our users and our customers. That is the key focus. We want to continue automating and providing all of that flexibility. If you want all 4000 modules and a big download, we certainly are... We're going to continue to give you that option. But if you want to be able to start customizing what you download, maybe only relying on certified content, instead of community content, we're going to give you that option now as well, so that you know what you're running. And with the analytics, we're just scratching the surface here. We're getting some great data. It's helping us to develop new ways of insights into how your systems are running. And that'll get very exciting as we go forward. I know that we've seen like a Forex increase already in the amount of insights attached to REL, which is really great, and for now, at least in the hundreds of customers that are using the AI, I think as we show more value there, you'll get a lot more customers to provide some of their data which will allow us then collectively to come up with some really great analytics to help people become more efficient with your automation. >> Well, Tim Kramer, thank you so much for the updates. And thank you to everything your team's doing. And just a reminder to the audience, of course, these communities not only are important technical resources, but many of them you've made friends with over the years. If you need help, reach out to the community. There are so many good stories that can be found amongst these communities helping each other through these challenging times. Much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you as always for watching theCube. (gentle upbeat music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course, this year's event happening digitally, we're talking to Red Hat executives, partners, customers, where they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this digital event. And really important topic, of course, has been Automation for a long time, I think back to my career automation is something we've been talking about for decades, but even more important in today's age. Happy to welcome back to the program, Tim Kramer with Red Hat, Vice President of Engineering is that I don't have listed view here. But since we last talked to him at Ansible Fest, has been a little expansion in the scope of what you're working on. First of all, welcome back, and tell us what's new in your world? >> All right, thanks a lot. Yeah, there's been rather substantial change in roles. I'm now in charge actually, of all of the engineering within Red Hat. All the development engineering site includes: the middleware teams, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, of course management and automation, the new team that we just brought over from IBM doing Advanced Container Management. I'm basically running the whole thing and openShift of course. >> Excellent. Just a few things to keep you busy. Congratulations on that and love your support in the the Boston "Hello World" rella eight shirt that of course we saw last year at summit. I know one of the things being digital is people do miss some of the t-shirts. I know my family was quite fond of the "May The Fourth Be With You" shirts, that Red Hat did one year at summit. Of course, celebrating Star Wars Day, highly celebrated in in the Middleman household. But Tim, let's talk about Ansible. This brings our audience up to speed, what's happening that some of the latest pieces, and of course, it's been one of the great success stories. Ansible was a lot of adoption before the acquisition, but really accelerated over the last few years? >> I think it's been very exciting. We talked a lot about some of the cool things that we're going to be working on it Ansible Fest, and we showed a lot of demos. We're actually now bringing a lot of those technologies to light. And the main thing that we've been focused on really, is let's make sure that we're continuing to add really great value to the Ansible subscription. And especially for our customers, and any users actually, we want to make sure that we can continue to scale with the community and partners that are part of Ansible. And we are also um, (mumbles) Freezing. We just start that question again, fix that one in post? Sorry. >> Just stay in. It's okay, we'll pick it up there. They can do a trend, though. Tim, I'll start the question again? >> Okay. >> We'll start this. I'll reframe the question again. Then I'll cut your screen and you'll go, and... Tim, let's focus specifically on the updates on what's happening in Ansible. >> At Ansible Fest, we talked a lot about technology to come and showed a few demos of the possibilities. What we have done since then is actually bring all of that technology to life and to expand it. One thing that Red Hat has really done is continue to invest heavily in Ansible, to make sure that we can bring new capabilities and new value to the subscription for everyone. Some of the things that have been happening since summit, which of course we are in, and since Ansible Fest, since we last talked was it, the community continues to scale at a really rapid rate. It's almost hard to keep up. And the number of modules that we have had is grown just tremendously. We have well over 3000 modules now that are available, and as customers and partners and also just casual users are looking through that, it's difficult to figure out: what's really supported? What's really rock solid? What can I count on? And what is, maybe sort of that Wild West community, I'm just trying out some stuff with Ansible and see how it goes. We've been focusing on a lot, is a place that you can come to the Ansible automation platform and the hub where you can now get this content and you can rely on the fact that it's going to be certified by partners, tested by partners, they're always keeping up with the latest updates. A great example of this is, let's just take NetApp or F5, or Cisco as good examples, across the various spaces, we absolutely in the Ansible engineering team are not experts on all of the latest changes, the new hardware coming out, the new software upgrades that they're making. And our ability to keep up with that is pretty difficult. We just can't do it, but they sure can. And their customers, and our customers are both demanding that we give them more content, better content, and we need to be able to do it at the rate that our partners want to be able to provide that kind. As an example, normally we were kind of slowing Ansible down and trying to do one release every six months. But if a new piece of software, a new switch or a new disk array or anything comes out in the meantime, all of our customers had to wait for that next six months release, that was not very convenient. And having an expectation that our partners are going to line up on our schedule is, oh! That didn't work out so well for them. We've created the certified content. And we now have the goals to have 50 certified partners. Back at first, I think we had three or four. We're now up to 30, our goal is to hit 50. We had about 100 modules that we showed at fest that were certified, we now have over 1200 modules that are certified content. And these are our partners, creating this content and making it stable and secure for everyone to use. So that, I think, far >> (mumbles) >> That was the coolest thing that we've done. >> Yeah, it's great to see that progress. Congratulations on the momentum since Ansible Fest. One of the other things talked about that back at that show, we talked about how analytics and automation, how those are going together, how's adoption been? Is this impossibly met? >> Adoption on the analytic side has been... It's been taking off. It was pretty nascent. I can tell you that, that we've grown by about five X there, but we started a little bit small. We had a few customers that signed up early on to do it. I think probably the more impressive thing is that, we have a couple of customers in markets that you would traditionally think, we're not going to get their data, they're more concerned about what we're sharing, but we have a major bank, we have a major manufacturer that have well over 10,000 systems providing data back into Red Hat that allows us then to analyze and provide a bunch of analytics back on their running estate. And I think that's amazing, seeing the big customers that are coming in from Marcus that you might think, we're probably not going to get a lot of uptake has been really exciting to me. >> All right, you talked a bit about how Ansible fits into the ecosystem, of course being at summit, want to understand a bit more how Ansible the latest of how it's fitting into the rest of the Red Hat portfolio. I've got interviews with Stephanie Shiraz, talking about you, Raul and Joe Fitzgerald, talking about ACM, your group I know is heavily involved working on a lot of those pieces. Help us understand how this is kind of a seamless portfolio. >> I think that's one of the most important things that we do within Red Hat team, is that we have to share the sufficiency across all the product groups and make them better and provide an additional enhanced value there. We've done a lot on the rail side, probably one of the maybe lesser known thing is that, we've been working really closely on openShift. And actually, we have a lot of customers now that really want the Ansible automation hub available on openShift as a first-class application. We're doing things, we're writing operators for those so that we can automate the updates and upgrades and back up and all of that important functionality, so that it's really easy, than to manage your Ansible automation hub, running on openShift, that's one big thing. And then we're going to integrate that really well into the advanced container management, that the team from IBM that came over is working towards. I have a really close partnership with ACM team to make sure that we can start to not only gather lists of affected systems, but then take that list and do a bunch of automations against it. >> (mumbles) >> That's one. On the real side, we've done a lot. We introduced at last summit rally, and we talked about having insights as part of that. Since then, we've been adding more and more capabilities into insights, and to enhance that value of the subscription route. We looked at adding in, well, advisor is now what we used to call insights. It's just something that advises you about problems or issues that may be occurring in your URL instances that are running on prem. We've also added in a drift service, so you can tell if your configurations are sort of drifting apart. We've added in a compliance checker, so you can define some kind of a policy or compliance that you want to enforce on all of your running instances, and we make sure that you're still compliant. We also have a vulnerability detector, which you'd kind of expect, so any nasty security issues that come along, we can pop those up and show you right away. And probably some of the... One of the newer things is, we allow you to do patching. And you can do that patching, right from cloud@redhat.com. We also have another new very exciting feature, which is Subscription Watch, also on cloud@redhat.com. And what this allows you to do is to see and manage all of your subscriptions across your entire hybrid estate. From what you're running on prem, to what you're running in any of the public clouds, we can actually track that for you. You can see what kind of usage you have. And then, make better economic decisions for yourself, and then be able to easily expand that usage if you want to, it used to be a little bit more difficult to do that. We're trying to make subscriptions just like as much in the background as possible to make it easier for our customers. >> Tim, one of one of the big changes customers have to go through is moving from, their environment in their data centers, to the leverage of SaaS and managing things that are outside of their control and the public cloud. You've got an engineering development team, and you've got software that went from, mostly going in customers data centers too, you've got SaaS offerings, you're living in the public cloud. Want to understand, what's changing in your world? What advice would you give to other people as to kind of the learnings that Red Hat has had going through those pieces? >> It's actually a kind of a neat story, because after we change to start making a lot of our services that we had just only shipping products on prem into cloud based services, we had to develop this platform to be able to host all of these services. We started with the insights platform, because we already had that running out in the public cloud. So that was the obvious first thing to base everything on. But we had to build out that platform so that it could support all these services, the ones I just talked about, that are with REL are really good examples. Between a policy, compliance drift, all of these different kinds of services that we're offering, we had to build out that set of capabilities and services in what we're calling sort of the cloud@redhat.com platform. What I'm seeing is that a lot of customers are going through some of these same kinds of thoughts. Like they have a myriad, let's say of applications that are running that they're trying to provide back into their their own company. Different divisions of a company, they have things that are running in the cloud, some things that are running on prem, and they want to start to be able to offer a more cohesive set of services, consolidate some of these, share some of the engineering effort that they have across their various teams. This is exactly the journey that we went through to get to cloud@redhat.com. Finding a surprising number of customers that are actually really interested just in that story, about how we did that. One of the things that we've found is, we've been working with the folks at the open innovation labs within Red Hat. And this is one of the transformation stories that they see constantly as well. We've worked with them and shared this, they're a great resource to help customers kind of think through that problem and get them into a new kind of a platform. But it's quite a journey. We've been really focused on the infrastructure and on prem. Moving to the cloud was a big. But I'll tell you it engineering can move so much faster in a SaaS service than it can with on prem software delivery. It's been remarkable how quickly we could get there. >> Tim, one other thing, if I look at Red Hat, you're a global company, most development organizations are highly distributed to begin with. So many companies today are now having to rapidly figure out how do I manage people that are working from home? How do I live in these environments? From an automation tooling, we'd love to hear any advice you have there, as well as just anything else from your engineering experience in your teams that other people might be able to learn from, as they're dealing with today's landscape. >> To be honest, this is a... We have never seen anything like this in our history, with this kind of pandemic that's happening worldwide. It's shifting everything about business. And it has been challenging just within Red Hat engineering for how we can manage the engineers and their expectations and how difficult it can be to work from home. I have amazing stories from my own engineers. I had an engineer who's in Spain and his wife is a nurse. She's on like 18-hour shifts, the hospital comes back, they have to separate, he's got the kids. And because they don't want them to get infected, it's a really, really difficult working situation for a lot of families out there to try to make it through this. One of the things at Red Hat is, we just have to recognize that it's okay to slow things down a little bit. Let our engineers not feel the pressure that they have to do both childcare and school-at-home and caring for sick relatives or sick family, as well as meet all of your deadlines, it's kind of too much. We've been really... We're trying to be very compassionate with our folks letting them know that we have their back, and it's going to be okay as we try to get ourselves through this ridiculously different time that we've never seen anything like this, like I said. From an engineering perspective, I think work-from-home has been, it's okay for some people. If you have a larger home, I think it's a little easier maybe to find a room that you can go into and do your work. For some, no, if they're in an apartment, or you're sharing with a bunch of friends, it's not your workplace. And it can be really challenging to figure out how to work for eight hours a day with sort of a lot of distractions or just feeling confined and it's just been really difficult for anybody that wants to try to get out, you go a little stir-crazy. The good thing I guess is that engineering is naturally lends itself to being able to be remote and work from home. We have an advantage that way, than other industries, which is great. But it's definitely been really challenging for our teams to be able to cope with this and all we can do is just be really understanding. >> Tim, we appreciate the stories, they're definitely everyone's working through some challenging times. Want to give you the final word as to really takeaways as to what should people be watching? What things should people be going back and looking at from an automation standpoint as they leave Red Hat Summit 2020? >> We're just going to continue to work with the community, work with our partners, get more certified content and continue to scale, the best way that we can for all of our users and our customers. That is the key focus. We want to continue automating and providing all of that flexibility. If you want all 4000 modules and a big download, we certainly are... We're going to continue to give you that option. But if you want to be able to start customizing what you download, maybe only relying on certified content, instead of community content, we're going to give you that option now as well, so that you know what you're running. And with the analytics, we're just scratching the surface here. We're getting some great data. It's helping us to develop new ways of insights into how your systems are running. And that'll get very exciting as we go forward. I know that we've seen like a Forex increase already in the amount of insights attached to REL, which is really great, and for now, at least in the hundreds of customers that are using the AI, I think as we show more value there, you'll get a lot more customers to provide some of their data which will allow us then collectively to come up with some really great analytics to help people become more efficient with your automation. >> Well, Tim Kramer, thank you so much for the updates. And thank you to everything your team's doing. And just a reminder to the audience, of course, these communities not only are important technical resources, but many of them you've made friends with over the years. If you need help, reach out to the community. There are so many good stories that can be found amongst these communities helping each other through these challenging times. Much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you as always for watching theCube. 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>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everybody, welcome to this special CUBE conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. We're here with Sanjay Poonen who's the COO of VMware and a good friend of theCUBE. Sanjay great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Dave it's a pleasure. In these new circumstances, shelter at home and remote working. I hope you and your family are doing well. >> Yeah, and back at you Sanjay. Of course I saw you on Kramer Mad Money the other night. I was jealous. I said, "I need Sanjay on to get an optimism injection." You're a great leader And I think, a role model for all of us. And of course the "Go Niners" in the background really incented me to get-- I got my Red Sox cap and we have a lack of sports, but, and we miss it, But hey, we're making the best. >> Okay Red Sox is better than the Patriots. Although I love the Patriots. If i was in the east coast, especially now that Brady's gone. I guess you guys are probably ruing a little bit that Jimmy G came to us. >> I am a huge Tampa Bay fan all of a sudden. I be honest with you. Tom Brady can become a Yankee and I would root for them. I tell you that's how much I love the guy. But anyway, I'm really excited to have you on. It's obviously as you mentioned, these times are tough, but we're making the best do and it's great to see you. You are a huge optimist, but I want to ask you, I want to start with Narendra Modi just announced, basically a lockdown for 21 days. 1.3 billion people in your native country. I wonder if you could give us some, some thoughts on that. >> I'm, my parents live half their time in Bangalore and half here. They happen to be right now in the US, and they're doing well. My dad's 80 and my mom's 77. I go to India a lot. I spent about 18 years of my life there, and the last 32 odd years here and I still go there a lot. Have a lots friends and my family there. And , it's I'm glad that the situation is kind of , as best as they can serve it. It's weird, I was watching some of the social media photos of Bangalore. I tweeted this out last night. The roads look so clean and beautiful. I mean, it looks like 40 years ago when I was growing up. When I would take a bicycle to school. I mean Bangalore's one of the most beautiful cities in India, very green and you can kind of see it all again. And I think, as I've been watching some of the satellite photos of the various big cities to just watch sort of Mother Nature. Obviously, we're in a tough time and, I open my empathy and thoughts and prayers go to every family that's affected by this. And certainly ones who have lost loved ones, but it's sort of, I think it's neat, that we're starting to see some of the beautiful aspects of nature. Even as we deal with the tough aspects of sheltered home. And the incredible tough impacts of this pandemic across the world. >> Yeah, I think you're right. There is a silver lining as much as, our hearts go out to those that are that are suffering. You're seeing the canals in Venice run clear. As you mentioned, the nitrous oxide levels over China. what's going on in Bangalore. So, there is a little bit of light in the end of the tunnel for the environment, I hope. and at least there's an indication that we maybe, need to be more sensitized to this. Okay, let's get into it. I want to ask you, so last week in our breaking analysis. We worked with a data company called ETR down in New York City. They do constant surveys of CIO's. I want to read you something that they came out with just on Monday and get your reaction. Basically, their annual growth and IT spend they're saying, is showing a slight decline for 2020. As a significant number of organizations plan to cut and/or delay IT expenditures due to the coronavirus. Though the current climate may suggest worse many organizations are accelerating spending for 2020 as they ramp up their work-from-home infrastructure. These organizations are offsetting what would otherwise be a notable decline in global IT spend versus last year. Now we've gone from the 4% consensus at the beginning of the year. ETR brought it down to zero percent and then just on Monday, they went to slight negative. But, what's not been reported widely is the somewhat offsetting factor of work-from-home infrastructure. VMware obviously plays there. So I wonder if you could comment on what you're seeing. >> Yeah, Dave, I think , we'll have to see . I'm not an economic pundit. So we're going to have to see what the, IT landscape looks like in the overall sense and we'll probably play off GDP. Certain industries: travel, hospitality, I mean, it's brutal for them. I mean, and I hope that, what I really hope, that's going to happen to that industry, especially there's an infusion through recovery type of bill. Is that no real big company goes under, and goes bankrupt. I mean kind of the situation in 2008. I mean, people wondering what will happen to the Airlines. Boeing, hospital-- these are ic-- some of them like Boeing are iconic brands of the United States and of the world. There's only two real companies that make planes. So we've got to make sure that those industries stay afloat and stay good for the health of the world. Health of the US economy, jobs, and so on. That's always one end. Listen, health and safety of our employees always comes first. Before we even think about that. I always tell people the profits of VMware will wait if you are not well, if your loved ones not well, if your going to take care of people, take care of that first. We will be fine. This too shall pass. But if you're healthy, let's turn our attention because we're not going to just sit at home and play games. We're going to serve our customers. How do we do that? A lot of our customers are adjusting to this new normal. As a result, they have to either order devices with a laptop, screens, things of those kinds, to allow a work-from-home environment to be as close to productive as they work environment. So I expect that there will be a surge in the, sort of, end points that people need. I will have to see how Dell and HP and Lenovo, but I expect that they will probably see some surge in their laptops. As people, kind of, want those in the home and hopefully their supply chains are able to respond. But then with every one of those endpoints and screens that we need now for these types of organizations. You need to manage them, end point management. Often, you need virtual desktops on them. You need to end point security and then in some cases you will probably need, if it's a remote office, branch office, and into the home office, network security and app acceleration. So those Solutions, end point management, Workspace ONE, inclusive of a full-fledged virtual desktop capability That's our product Workspace ONE. Endpoint Securities, Carbon Black and the Network Platform NSX being software-defined was relegated for things like, load balancers and SDWAN capabilities and it's kind of almost feels like good, that we got those solutions, the last three, four years through acquisitions, in many cases. I mean, of course, Airwatch and Nicira were six, seven, eight years ago. But even SD-WAN, we acquired Velocloud three and a half years ago, Carbon Black just four months ago, and Avi in the last year. Those are all parts of that kind of portfolio now, and I feel we were able to, as customers come to us we're not going in ambulance-chasing. But as customers come to us and say, "What do you have as a work-at-home "for business continuity?" We're able to offer them a solution. So we did a webcast earlier this week. Where we talked about, we're calling it work in home with business continuity. It's led with our EUC offerings Workspace ONE. Accompanied by Carbon Black to secure that, and then underneath it, will obviously be the cloud foundation and our Network capabilities of NSX. >> Yeah, so I want to double down on that because it was not, the survey results, showed it was not just collaboration tools. Like Zoom and WebEx and gotomeeting Etc. It was, as you're pointing out, it was other infrastructure that was of VPN's. It was Network bandwidth. It was virtualization, security because they need to secure that work-from-home infrastructure. So a lot of sort of, ancillary activity. It was surprising to me, when I saw the data, that 21% of the CIO's that we surveyed, said that they actually plan on spending more in 2020 because of these factors. And so now we're tracking that daily. And the sentiment changes daily. I showed some other data that showed the CIO sentiment through March. Every day of the survey it dropped. Okay, so it's prudent to be cautious. But nonetheless, people to your point aren't just sitting on their hands. They're not standing still. They're moving to support this new work-from-home normal. >> Yeah, I mean listen, I forgot to say that, Yeah, we are using the video collaboration tools. Zoom a lot. We use Slack. We'll use Teams. So we are, those are accompanied. We were actually one of the first customers to use Zoom. I'm a big fan of my friend Eric Yuan and what they're doing there in modernizing, making it available on a mobile device. Just really fast. They've been very responsive and they reciprocated by using Workspace ONE there. We've been doing ads joined to VMware and zoom in the market for the last several years. So we're a big fan of their technology. So far be it from me to proclaim that the only thing you need here's VMware. There's a lot of other things on the stack. I think the best way, Dave, for us that we've sought to do this is again, I'm very sensitive to not ambulance-chase, which is, kind of go after this. To do it authentically, and the way that authentically is to be, I think Satya Nadella put this pretty well in an interview he did yesterday. Be a first responder to the first responder. A digital first responder, if I could. So when the, our biggest customers are hospital and school and universities and retailers and pharmacies. These are some of our biggest customers. They are looking, in some cases, actually hire more people to serve their communities and customers. And every one of them, as they , hire new people and so and so on, will I just naturally coming to us and when they come to us, serve them. And it's been really gratifying Dave. If I could read you the emails I've been getting the last few days. I got one from a very prominent City, the United States, the mayor's office, the CTO, just thanking us and our people. For being available who are being careful not to, we're being very sensitive to the pricing. To making sure customers don't feel like, in any way, that we're looking at the economics of it will always come just serve your customer. I got an email yesterday from a very large pharmacy. Routinely we were talking to folks in the, in the healthcare industry. University, a president of a school. In fact, Southern New Hampshire University, who I mentioned Jim Cramer. Sent me a note saying, "hey, we're really grateful you even mentioned our name." and I'm not doing this because, Southern New Hampshire University is doing an incredible job of moving a lot of their platform to online to help tens of thousands. And they were one of the early customers to adopt virtual desktops, and the cloud desktops, and the services. So, as we call. So in any of these use cases, I just tell our employees, "Be authentic. "First off take care of your families. "It's really important to take care of your own health and safety. But once you've done that, be authentic in serving our customers." That's what VR has always done. From the days of dying green, to bombers, to Pat, and all of us here now. Take care of our customers and we'll be fine. >> Yeah, and I perfectly understand your sensitivity to that notion of ambulance-chasing and I'm by no means trying to bait you into doing that. But I would stress, the industry needs you and the tech it-- many in the tech industry, like VMware, have very strong balance sheets. They're extremely viable companies and we as a community, as an industry, need companies like VMware to step up, be flexible on pricing, and terms, and payment, and things like that nature. Which it sounds like you're doing. Because the heroes that are on the front lines, they're fighting a battle every day, every hour, every minute and they need infrastructure to be able to work remotely with the stay-at-home mandates. >> I think that's right. And listen, let me talk a little bit of one of the things you talked about. Which is financing and we moved a lot of our business to increasingly, to the cloud. And SaaS and subscription services are a lot more radical than offer license and maintenance. We make that choice available to customers, in many cases we lead with cloud-first solutions. And then we also have financing services from our partners like Dell financial services that really allow a more gradual, radibal payment. Do people want financing? And , I think if there are other scenarios. Jim asked me on his show, "What will you do if one of your companies go bankrupt?" I don't know, that's an unprecedented, we didn't have, we had obviously, the financial crisis. I wasn't here at VMware during the dot-com blow up where companies just went bankrupt in 2000. I was at Informatica at the time. So, I'm sure we will see some unprecedented-- but I will tell you, we have a very fortunate to be profitable, have a good balance sheet. Whatever scenario, if we take care of our customers, I mean, we have been very fortunate to be one of the highest NPS, Net promoter scorer, companies in the industry. And , I've been reaching out to many of our top customers. Just a courtesy, without any agenda other than, we're just checking in. A friend in need is a friend indeed. It's a line that I remembered. And just reach out your customers. Hey listen. Checking in. No, other than can we help you, if there's anything and thank you, especially for ones who are retailers, pharmacies, hospitals, first responders. Thank them for what they're doing to serve many of their people. Especially people in retail. Think about the people who have to go into warehouses to service us, to deliver the stuff that comes to our home. I mean, these people are potentially at risk, but they do it. Put on masks. Braving health situations. That often need the paycheck. We're very grateful for that, and our hope is that this world situation, listen, I mentioned it on on TV as a kind of a little bit of a traffic jam. I love to ski and when I go off and to Tahoe, I tell my family, "I don't know how long it's going to take." with check up on Waze or Google Maps and usually takes four hours, no traffic. Every now and then it'll take five, six, seven. Worst case eight. I had some situation, never happen to me but some of my friends would just got stuck there and had to sleep in their car. But it's pretty much the case, you will eventually get there. I was talking to my dad, who is 80, and he's doing well. And he said, this feels a little bit like World War Two because you're kind of, in many places there. They had a bunker, shelter. Not just shelter in place, but bunker shelter in that time. But that lasted, whatever five, six years. I don't think this is going to last five, six years. It may be five, six months. It might be a whole year. I don't know. I can guarantee it's not going to be six years. So it won't be as bad as World War two. It certainly won't be as bad as the Spanish Flu. Which took 39 people and two percent of the world. Including five percent of my country, India in the 1918 to 1920 period, a hundred years ago. So we will get through this. I like, we shall overcome. I'm not going to sing it for you. It's one of my favorite Louis Armstrong songs, but find ways by which you encourage, uplift people. Making sure, it is tough, it is very tough times and we have to make sure that we get through this. That jobs are preserved as best as we can because that's the part I'm really, really concerned about. The loss of jobs and how we're going to recover as US economy, but we will make it through this. >> Yeah, and I want to sort of second what you're saying. That look, I know there are a lot of people at home that going a little bit stir crazy and this, the maybe a little bit of depression setting in. But to your point, we have to be empathic for those that are suffering. The elderly, who are in intensive care and also those frontline workers. And then I love your optimism. We will get through this. This is not the Spanish Flu. We have, it's a different world, a different technology world. Our focus, like many other small businesses is, we obviously want to survive. We want to maintain our full employment. We want to serve our customers and we, as you, believe that that is the recipe for getting through this. And so, I love the optimism. >> And listen, and we can help be a part of my the moment you texted me and said, "Hey, can I be in your show?" If it helps you drive, whatever you need, sponsorship revenue, advertising. I'm here and the same thing for all of our friends who have to adjust the way in which the wo-- we want to be there to help them. And I've chosen as best as I can, in terms of how I can support my family, the sort of five, five of us at home now. All fighting over bandwidth, the three kids, and my wife, and I. To be positive with them, to be in my social media presence, as best as possible. Every day to be positive in what I tweet out to the world And point people to a hope of what's going to come. I don't know how long this is going to last. But I can tell you. I mean, just the fact that you and I are talking over video interview. High fidelity, reasonably high fidelity, high bandwidth. The ability to connect. I mean it is a whole lot better than a lot of what happened in World War 2 or the Spanish flu. And I hope at the end of it, some of us, some of this will forever change our life. I hope for for example in a lot of our profession. We have to travel to visit customers. And now that I'm building some of these relationships virtually. I hope that maybe my travel percentage will drop. It's actually good for the environment, good for my family life. But if we can lower that percentage, still get things done through Zoom calls, and Workspace ONE, and things of those kinds, that would be awesome. So that's how I think about the way in which I'm adapting my life. And then I set certain personal goals. This year, for example, we're expanding a lot of our focus in security. We have a billion dollar security business and we're looking to grow that NSX, Common Black, Workspace ONE, and accompanying tools and I made it a goal to try and meet at all my sales teams. A thousand C-ISOs. I mean off I know a lot of CIO's in the 25 years, I've had, maybe five, six thousand of them in the world. And blessed to build that relationship over the years of my SAP and VMware experience, but I don't know. I mean, I knew probably 50 or 100. Maybe a few hundred CISO's. And now that we have a portfolio it's relevant to grant them and I think very compelling across network security and End Point security. We own the companies with such a strong portfolio in both those areas. I'm reaching out to them and I'm happy to tell you, I connected, I've got the names of 1,000 of the top CISO's in the Fortune 1000, Global 2000, and connecting with many of them through LinkedIn and other mixers. I hope I talked to many of them through the course of the year. And many of them will be virtual conversations. Again, just to talk to them about being a trusted advisor to us. Seeing if we can help them. And then of course, there will be a product pitch for NSX and Carbon Black and how we're different from whoever it is, Palo Alto and F5 and Netscaler and the SD line players or semantic McAfee Crowdstrike. We're differentiated so I want to certainly earn some of the business. But these are ways in which you adjust to a virtual kind of economy. Where I'm not having to physically go and meet them. >> Yeah, and we share your optimism and those CISO's are, they're heroes, superheroes on the front line. I'll tell ya a quick aside. So John Furrier and I, we're in Barcelona. When really, the coronavirus came to our heightened awareness and John looked at me and said, "Dave we've been doing digital for 10 years. "We have to take all of the software that we've developed, "all these assets and help our customers pivot." So we share that optimism and we're actually lucky to be able to have the studios and be able to have these conversations with you guys. So again, we share that, that optimism. I want to ask you, just on guidance. A lot of companies have come out and said we're not giving guidance anymore. I didn't see anything relative to VMware. Have you guys announced anything on guidance in terms of how you're going to communicate? Where are you at with that? >> No, I think we're just, I mean listen, we take this very carefully because of reg FD and the regulations of public company. So we just allow the normal quarterly ins. And of outside of that, if our CFO decides they may. But right now we're just continuing business as usual. We're in the middle of our, kind of, whatever, middle of our quarter. Quarter ends April. So work hard do the best we can in all the regions, be available for all of our teams. Pat, myself, and others we're, to the extent that we're healthy and we're doing well, but thank God, is reach out to CISO's and CIO's and CTO's and CEOs and help them. And I believe people will spend money. The questions we have to go over. And I think the stronger will survive. The companies with better balance sheet and unfortunately, some of the weaker companies won't. And I think quite frankly, if you do your job well. I don't mean this in any negative sense. The stronger companies will take share in these environments. I was watching a segment for John Chambers. He has been through a number of different, when I know him, so an I have, I've talked to him about some of the stuff. He will tell you that he, advises is a lot of his companies now. From the experiences he saw in 2008, 2001, in many of the crisis and supply chain issues. This is a time where leadership counts. The strong get stronger. Never waste a good crisis, as Winston Churchill said. And as you do that, the strong will come strong because you figure out ways by which, if you're going to make changes that were planned for one or two years from now. Maybe a good time to make them is now. And as you do that you communicate a vision for where you're going. Very clearly to your employees. Again incessantly over and over again. They, hopefully, are able to repeat it in their own words in a simple fashion, and then you get all of your employees in our case 30,000 plus employees of VMware lined up. So one of the things that we've been doing a lot of these days is communicate, communicate, communicate, internally. I've talked a lot about our communication with customer. But inside, our employees, we do calls with our top leaders over Zoom. Calls, intimate calls, and many, often we're adjusting to where I'll say a few words. I have a mandatory every two week goal with all of my senior most leaders. I'll speak for about five minutes and then for the next 25 minutes, the top 12, 15 of them I listen. To things, I want all of them to speak up. There's nobody who should stay silent, because I want to hear what's going on in that corner of the world. >> But fantastic Sanjay. Well, I mean, Boeing, I heard this morning's going to get some support from the government. And strategically that's very important for our country. Congress finally passed, looks like they're passing that bill, and support which is awesome. It's been, especially for all these small businesses that are struggling and want to maintain full employment. I heard Steve Mnuchin the other day saying, "Look, we're talking about two months of payroll "for people if they agree to keep people employed. "or hire them back." I mean the Fed. people say, oh the FED is out of arrows. The Feds, not out of arrows. I mean, I'm not an economist either. But the Fed. has a lot of bullets in their gun, as they say. So Sanjay, thanks so much. You're an awesome leader and really an inspirational executive and a good friend so thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Dave, always a pleasure. Please say hi to all of my friends, your co-anchors, and the staff at CUBE. Thank them for all their hard work. It's a pleasure to talk to you this morning. I wish you, your family, and your friends and all of our community, stay safe and be well. >> Thank you Sanjay and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for the cube and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>>long from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering a ws re invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and in along with its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back here to AWS reinvent 2019. Great show going on here in Las Vegas, where the Sands were live here on the Cube. Once again, covering it from wall to wall will be here until late tomorrow afternoon. David John Walls were doing by Joined by David. She coaches who is the vice president of product management for hybrid idea Century Lake. Good to see you, You guys and Brandon sweetie, who's the SPP of worldwide cloud sales at Veum With you be with you. This is gonna be a New England sports segment actually surrounded by ruin. Celtics, >>ESPN in Vegas, >>I remind you, the Washington Nationals are the reigning world. Serious shit. Wait a moment. Wait. Shark forever. A moment in time I got stuff. Let's talk about your relationship between via wearing set free like And what brings you here? A WSB offering. You're putting you guys that run on AWS. >>Maybe Maggie jumping and jumping. So look VM wear a long time player in the infrastructure space. Obviously incredible relationship with AWS. Customers want to transform their operations. They want to move to the cloud way have Vienna, where Claude, on a video B s. We continue to take tremendous ground helping customers build and build more agile infrastructure. Make that happen, Van. Where was built on our partners. Right centrally great partner MSP. And we think about helping customers achieve their business outcomes. Key partners like centrally make it happen. You've been a long term partner and done a lot of great things with us. >>Yeah, and really what? What Central Lincoln VM Where have done? I mean, really, we sort of created the manage private cloud market in the early days of managing the Empire solutions for customers, but really were and where we differentiate in other working with GM wear on AWS is really with elements of our network or the ability to take those kinds of solutions and make sure that they're connected to the right networks and that they're tied in and integrated with the customer's existing enterprise and where they want to go as they start to distribute the workload more widely. Because we run that network, we see a lot of the Internet traffic. We see a lot of threat patterns. We see a lot of things emerged with our cyber security capabilities and manage service is. So we add value there. And because of that history with BM wear and in sort of creating that hosted private cloud environment, there's There's a lot of complexity, friendliness inside of our service offer, where we can manage the inn where we can manage it in a traditional model that is cloud verified. And then you could manage it as it starts to move on to the AWS platform. Because, as we all know, and as even you know, Andy has referenced in different points, there's a just about every kind of workload can go to eight of us. But there are still certain things that can't quite go there. And building a hybrid solution basically puts customers in a position to innovate is what a hybrid solution is all about. >>That kind of moves the needle on some of those harder to move working in the M, where is such an obvious place to start? So you try to preserve that existing customer of'em, where customer experience but at the same time you want to bring the cloud experience. So how How is that evolving? >>Yes, it's a couple things, right? So l Tingley customers, they all want to move to the cloud for all the reasons we want security, agility, governance, et cetera. Right, but fundamentally need help. And so partners, like essentially help figure out which workloads are cloud ready, right? And figure that out and then to you, get to know the customer. Really well, begin the relationships that you have, right, and you can help them figure out which workloads am I gonna move right? And then that leads into more relationships on How do I set up d r. Right? How do I offer other service is through eight of us against those work clothes. >>There's a lot of things where being a manage service's provider for a V M were based platform or being. Amanda's service is provided for an AWS platform. There's a lot of things that you have in common, right? First and foremost is that ability toe run your operations securely. You've got to be secure. You know, you need to be able to maintain that bond of trust you need to be auditable. Your your your operations model needs to be something that transparent to the customer. You need to not just be about migrating workloads to the new and exciting environment, but also helping to transform it and take advantage of whether it's a V M where feature tool or next generation eight of us feature it's will. It's not just my great lift and shift, but then helped to transform what that that downstream, long term platform could do. You certainly want Teoh be in a posture where you're building a sense of intimacy with the customer. You're learning their acronyms. You're learning their business processes. You're building up that bond of trust where you can really be flexible with that customer. That's where the MSP community can also come in, because there's a lot of creative things we can do commercially. Contracting wise binding service's together into broader solutions and service level agreements that can go and give the customer something that they could just get by going teach individual technology platform under themselves >>and their ways >>where the service provider community really chips in. >>I think you're right and we think about helping Dr customers success manage service providers because of those engine relationship with customers. We've had tremendous success of moving those workloads, driving consumption of the service and really driving better business outcomes based on those relationships you have. >>So let's talk about workloads, guys. Course. Remember Paul Maritz when he was running the M word? He said Eddie Eddie Workload. Any application called it a device. He called it a software mainframe and Christian marketing people struck that from the parlance. But that's essentially what's happened pretty much run anything on somewhere. I heard Andy Jassy Kino talking about people helping people get off on mainframes. And so I feel like he's building the cloud mainframe. Any work less? But what kind of workloads are moving today? It's not. Obviously, he acknowledged, some of the hard core stuff's not gonna move. He didn't specify, but it's a lot of that hard core database ol TV transit transaction, high risk stuff. But what is moving today? Where do you see that going? >>Don't talk about some customers. >>Yeah, >>so a lot of joint customers we have that. I think you fall into that category. In fact, tomorrow on Thursday, we're actually leading a panel discussion that really dives into some customers. Success on the AWS platform that Central Lincoln are managed service is practice has been able to help them achieve what's interesting about that We have. We have an example from the public sector. We have an example from manufacturing and from from food and beverage example from the transportation industry and airlines. What's really interesting is that in all those use cases that will be diagramming out tomorrow, where VM Where's part of all of them, right? And sometimes it's because I am. Where is a critical part of their existing infrastructure? And so we're trying to be able to do is design, you know, sort of systems of innovation, systems of engagement that they were running inside of an AWS or broadly distributed AWS architecture. But it still needs network integration, security and activity back to the crown jewels and what's kept in a lot of those workloads that already running on the BM where platform So that's a lot of ways. See that a good deal with regards to your moving your sort of innovative workloads, your engagement workload, some of your digital experience, platforms you were working with an airline that wants to start building up a series of initiatives where they want to be able to sell vacation packages and and be very creative in how they market deliver those pulling through airline sails along the way. They're gonna be designing those digital initiatives in AWS, but they need access to flight flight information, schedule information, logistics information that they keep inside of there there. Bm where environment in the centralized data center. And so they're starting to look at workloads like that. We started to look at the N word cloud on eight of us being whereas it a zit in and of itself as a workload moving up to eight of us. There's a range of these solutions that we're starting to see, but a lot of it is still there, and he had the graphic up. There were still, in the very early days of clouded option. I still see a lot of work loads that are moving AWS theater in that system of engagement. How can I digitally engaged with my customers better? That's where a lot of the innovation is going on, and that's what a lot of the workload that are running in launching our >>I mean, we're seeing tremendous momentum and ultimately take any workload, wailed, moving to the cloud right and do it in an efficient and speedy path. And we've got custom moving thousands of workloads, right? They may decide over time to re factor them, but first and foremost, they could move them. They relocate them to the cloud. They can save a lot of costs. Out of that, they can use the exact same interface or pane of glass in terms. How they manage those work clothes, whether they're on Kramer, off Prem. It gives them tremendous agility. And if they decide over time, they have to re factor some workloads, which can be quite costly. They have that option, but there's no reason they shouldn't move. Every single worker today >>is their eyes, their disadvantage at all. If if you're left with ex workloads that have to stay behind, as opposed to someone who's coming up and getting up and running totally on the cloud and they're enjoying all those efficiencies and capabilities, are you a little bit of a disadvantage because you have to keep some legacy things lingering behind, or how do you eventually close that gap to enjoy the benefits of new technologies. Yeah, >>there's a sort of an old saying that, you know, if you're if you're if you're an enterprise, you know, that means you've had to make a lot of decisions along the way, right? And so presumably those decisions added value. It's your enterprise, or else she wouldn't be in enterprise. So it really comes out, too. Yeah, to those systems of records of those legacy systems way talk about legacy systems >>on Lian I t. Is the word legacy. I know it's a positive. United is the word legacy. A majority of >>your legacy is what the value you built up a lot of that, whether it's airline flight data or scheduling, best practices are critical. Crown jewels kind of data systems are really important. It really comes down to it. You're on enterprise and you're competing against somebody that is born in the cloud. How well integrated is everything. And are you able to take advantage of and pace layer your innovation strategy so that you can work on the cloud where it makes sense. You can still take advantage of all the data and intelligence you build up about your customers >>so talking earlier, You guys, it seems like you guys do you see that? That cloud is ultimately the destination of all these workloads. But, you know, Pac thinking about PacBell Singer, he talked about the laws of physics, the laws of economics and the laws of the land so that he makes the case for the hybrid >>Murphy's Law. >>Yeah, so that makes the case for the hybrid world. And it seems like Amazon. To a certain extent, it's capitulating on that, and it seems like we got a long way to go. So it's almost like the cloud model will go to your data wherever it iss. You guys, I think, helped facilitate that. How do you look at that? >>Yes. I mean, part of that answer is how much data centers are becoming sort of an antiquated model right there. There there is a need for computing and storage in a variety of different locations. Right, And there's that we've been sort of going through these cycles back and forth of you use the term software mainframe and the on the Palmer. It's kind, a model of the original mainframe decentralizing out the client server now centralizing again to the cloud as we see it starting to swing back on the other direction for towards devices that are a lot smarter. Processors that are, you know, finally tuned for whatever Internet of things use case that they're being designed for being able to put business logic a whole lot closer to those devices. The data. So I think that is what one of things that I think that said that one of the BM wears. A couple of years ago, data centers were becoming centers of data. And how are you able to go and work with those centers of data? First off, link them all together, networking lies, secure them all together and then manage them consistently. I think that's one of the things I am has been really great about that sort of control playing data plane separation inside your product design that makes that a whole lot more feet. >>I mean, it is a multi cloud, and it's a hybrid cloud world, and we want to give customers of flexibility and choice to move their workloads wherever they need, right based on different decisions, geographic implications, et cetera, security regimens and mean fundamentally. That's where we give customers a tremendous, tremendous amount of flexibility. >>And bringing the edge complicates >>edge, data center or cloud. >>It's so maybe it's not a swing back, you know, because it really has been a pendulum swing, mainframe, decentralized swing back to the cloud. It feels like it's now this ubiquitous push everywhere. >>Pendulum stops. >>Yeah, >>because there's an equal gravitational pull between the power of both locals >>and compute explodes everywhere. You have storage everywhere. So bring me my question of governance, governance, security in the edicts of the organization. You touched on that. So that becomes another challenge. How do you see that playing out what kind of roles you play solving that problem >>on the idea of data governance? Governance? Yeah. I mean the best way to think about our. In our opinion, the best way to think about data governance is that is really with abstraction. Layers and being ableto have a model driven approach to what you're deploying out into the cloud, and you can go all in with the data model that exists in the attraction layers in the date and the model driven architecture that you can build inside things like AWS cloud formations or inside things like answerable and chef and been puppet, their model, different ways of understanding what your application known state should be on. That's the foundational principle of understanding what your workloads are and how you can actually deliver governance over them. Once you've modelled it on and you then know how to deploy it against a variety different platforms, then you're just a matter of keeping track of what you've modelled, where you've deployed it and inventorying those number of instances and how they scale and how healthy there that certainly, from a workload standpoint, I think governance discipline that you need in terms of the actual data itself. Data governance on where data is getting stored There's a lot of innovation here at the show floor. In terms of software to find storage and storage abstractions, the embers got a great software to find storage capability called the San. We're working with a number of different partners within the core of our network, starting to treat storage as sort of a new kind of virtualized network function, using things like sifts and NFS and I scuzzy as V n F that you can run inside the network we want. We have had an announcement here earlier in the week about our central bank's network storage offer. We're actually starting to make storage and the data policy that allows you to control words replicated and where it's stored. Just part of the network service that you can add is a value add >>or even the metadata get the fastest path to get to it if I need to. If I prefer not to move it, you're starting to see you're talking about multiplied this multi cloud world. It seems like the connections between those clouds are gonna be dictated by that metadata and the intelligence tow. You know what the right path is, >>And I think we want to provide the flexibility to figure out where that data needs to reside. Cross cloud on, Prem off from, and you can just hear from the conversation, David, level of intimacy some of our partners have with customers to work through those decisions. Right, if you're gonna move those workloads effectively and efficiently, is where we get a lot of value for our joint customers. >>I mean, she's pretty fundamental to this notion of digital transformation that's ultimately what we've been talking about. Digital transformation is all about data putting data at the core, being able to access that, get insights from it and monetize, not directly, but understand how data affects the monetization of your business. That's what your customers >>and I think we >>wantto. Besides, I think we want to simplify how you want to spend more time looking up. Your applications are looking down your infrastructure, right? Based on all the jury, are drivers across the different business needs. And again, if we can figure out how to simplify that infrastructure, then people could spend more time on the applications because that's how they drive differentiation in the market, right? And so let's simplify infrastructure, put it where it needs to be. But we're going to give you time back to drive innovation and focus on differentiating yourself. >>You know, it's interesting on the topic of digital transformation reindeer. So right, sort of an interesting little pattern that plays out for those of us that have been in the service of writer community for a little while that a lot of the digital transformation success stories that you see that really get a lot of attention around the public cloud like eight of us. The big major moves into going all in on the public cloud tend to come from companies that went all in on the service provider model 10 years ago, the ones that adopted the idea. I'm just gonna have somebody do this non differentiating thing for me so that I can focus on innovation, are then in a better position to go start moving to the cloud as opposed to companies that have been downward focused on their infrastructure. Building up skill sets, building up knowledge base, building up career, path of people that, actually we're thinking about the technology itself as part of their job description have had a hard time letting go. It sort of the first step of trusting the service provider to do it for you lead you to that second step of being able to just leverage and go all in on the public lab. >>And customers need that help, right? And that's where if we can help activate moving those workloads more quickly, we provide that ability, put more focus on innovation to Dr Outcomes. >>I know you're talking about legacy a little bit ago and that the negative connotation, I think. Tom Brady, Don't you think I wanna run number seven? I haven't had a home smiling Would always do it back with more. We continue our coverage here. Live with the cube, where a w s rivet 2019.

>> Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Red Hat President Products and Technologies. Paul Cormier. Boring. >> Welcome back to Boston. Welcome back. And welcome back after a great night last night of our opening with with Jim and talking to certainly saw ten Jenny and and especially our customers. It was so great last night to hear our customers in how they set their their goals and how they met their goals. All possible because certainly with a little help from red hat, but all possible because of because of open source. And, you know, sometimes we have to all due that has set goals. And I'm going to talk this morning about what we as a company and with community, have set for our goals along the way. And sometimes you have to do that. You know, audacious goals. It can really change the perception of what's even possible. And, you know, if I look back, I can't think of anything, at least in my lifetime, that's more important. Or such a big golden John F. Kennedy setting the gold to the American people to go to the moon. I believe it or not, I was really, really only three years old when he said that, honestly. But as I grew up, I remember the passion around the whole country and the energy to make that goal a reality. So let's sort of talk about in compare and contrast, a little bit of where we are technically at that time, you know, tto win and to beat and winning the space race and even get into the space race. There was some really big technical challenges along the way. I mean, believe it or not. Not that long ago. But even But back then, math Malik mathematical calculations were being shifted from from brilliant people who we trusted, and you could look in the eye to A to a computer that was programmed with the results that were mostly printed out. This this is a time where the potential of computers was just really coming on the scene and, at the time, the space race at the time of space race it. It revolved around an IBM seventy ninety, which was one of the first transistor based computers. It could perform mathematical calculations faster than even the most brilliant mathematicians. But just like today, this also came with many, many challenges And while we had the goal of in the beginning of the technique and the technology to accomplish it, we needed people so dedicated to that goal that they would risk everything. And while it may seem commonplace to us today to trust, put our trust in machines, that wasn't the case. Back in nineteen sixty nine, the seven individuals that made up the Mercury Space crew were putting their their lives in the hands of those first computers. But on Sunday, July twentieth, nineteen sixty nine, these things all came together. The goal, the technology in the team and a human being walked on the moon. You know, if this was possible fifty years ago, just think about what Khun B. Accomplished today, where technology is part of our everyday lives. And with technology advances at an ever increasing rate, it's hard to comprehend the potential that sitting right at our fingertips every single day, everything you know about computing is continuing to change. Today, let's look a bit it back. A computing In nineteen sixty nine, the IBM seventy ninety could process one hundred thousand floating point operations per second, today's Xbox one that sitting in most of your living rooms probably can process six trillion flops. That's sixty million times more powerful than the original seventy ninety that helped put a human being on the moon. And at the same time that computing was, that was drastically changed. That this computing has drastically changed. So have the boundaries of where that computing sits and where it's been where it lives. At the time of the Apollo launch, the computing power was often a single machine. Then it moved to a single data center, and over time that grew to multiple data centers. Then with cloud, it extended all the way out to data centers that you didn't even own or have control of. But but computing now reaches far beyond any data center. This is also referred to as the edge. You hear a lot about that. The Apollo's, the Apollo's version of the Edge was the guidance system, a two megahertz computer that weighed seventy pounds embedded in the capsule. Today, today the edge is right here on my wrist. This apple watch weighs just a couple of ounces, and it's ten ten thousand times more powerful than that seventy ninety back in nineteen sixty nine But even more impactful than computing advances, combined with the pervasive availability of it, are the changes and who in what controls those that similar to social changes that have happened along the way. Shifting from mathematicians to computers, we're now facing the same type of changes with regards to operational control of our computing power. In its first forms. Operational control was your team, your team within your control? In some cases, a single person managed everything. But as complexity grows, our team's expanded, just like in the just like in the computing boundaries, system integrators and public cloud providers have become an extension of our team. But at the end of the day, it's still people that are still making all the decisions going forward with the progress of things like a I and software defined everything. It's quite likely that machines will be managing machines, and in many cases that's already happening today. But while the technology at our finger tips today is so impressive, the pace of changing complexity of the problems we aspire to solve our equally hard to comprehend and they are all intertwined with one another learning from each other, growing together faster and faster. We are tackling problems today on a global scale with unsinkable complexity beyond anyone beyond what any one single company or even one single country Khun solve alone. This is why open source is so important. This is why open source is so needed today in software. This is why open sources so needed today, even in the world, to solve other types of complex problems. And this is why open source has become the dominant development model which is driving the technology direction. Today is to bring two brother to bring together the best innovation from every corner of the planet. Toe fundamentally change how we solve problems. This approach and access the innovation is what has enabled open source To tackle The challenge is big challenges, like creating the hybrid cloud like building a truly open hybrid cloud. But even today it's really difficult to bridge the gap of the innovation. It's available in all in all of our fingertips by open source development, while providing the production level capabilities that are needed to really dip, ploy this in the enterprise and solve RIA world business problems. Red Hat has been committed to open source from the very, very beginning and bringing it to solve enterprise class problems for the last seventeen plus years. But when we built that model to bring open source to the enterprise, we absolutely knew we couldn't do it halfway tow harness the innovation. We had to fully embrace the model. We made a decision very early on. Give everything back and we live by that every single day. We didn't do crazy crazy things like you hear so many do out there. All this is open corps or everything below. The line is open and everything above the line is closed. We didn't do that, and we gave everything back Everything we learned in the process of becoming an enterprise class technology company. We gave it all of that back to the community to make better and better software. This is how it works. And we've seen the results of that. We've all seen the results of that and it could only have been possible within open source development model we've been building on the foundation of open source is most successful Project Lennox in the architecture of the future hybrid and bringing them to the Enterprise. This is what made Red Hat, the company that we are today and red hats journey. But we also had the set goals, and and many of them seemed insert insurmountable at the time, the first of which was making Lennox the Enterprise standard. And while this is so accepted today, let's take a look at what it took to get there. Our first launch into the Enterprise was rail two dot one. Yes, I know we two dot one, but we knew we couldn't release a one dato product. We knew that and and we didn't. But >> we didn't want to >> allow any reason why anyone of any customer anyone shouldn't should look past rail to solve their problems as an option. Back then, we had to fight every single flavor of Unix in every single account. But we were lucky to have a few initial partners and Big Eyes v partners that supported Rehl out of the gate. But while we had the determination, we knew we also had gaps in order to deliver on our on our priorities. In the early days of rail, I remember going to ask one of our engineers for a past rehl build because we were having a customer issue on it on an older release. And then I watched in horror as he rifled through his desk through a mess of CDs and magically came up and said, I found it here It is told me not to worry that the build this was he thinks this was the bill. This was the right one, and at that point I knew that despite the promise of Lennox, we had a lot of work ahead of us. The not only convinced the world that Lennox was secure, stable, an enterprise ready, but also to make that a reality. But we did. And today this is our reality. It's all of our reality. From the Enterprise Data Center standard to the fastest computers on the planet, Red Hat Enterprise, Lennox has continually risen to the challenge and has become the core foundation that many mission critical customers run and bet their business on. And an even bigger today Lennox is the foundation of which practically every single technology initiative is built upon. Lennox is not only standard toe build on today, it's the standard for innovation that builds around it. That's the innovation that's driving the future as well. We started our story with rail two dot one, and here we are today, seventeen years later, announcing rally as we did as we did last night. It's specifically designed for applications to run across the open hybrid. Clyde Cloud. Railed has become the best operating simp system for on premise all the way out to the cloud, providing that common operating model and workload foundation on which to build hybrid applications. Let's take it. Let's take a look at how far we've come and see this in action. >> Please welcome Red Hat Global director of developer experience, burst Sutter with Josh Boyer, Timothy Kramer, Lars Carl, it's Key and Brent Midwood. All right, we have some amazing things to show you. In just a few short moments, we actually have a lot of things to show you. And actually, Tim and Brandt will be with us momentarily. They're working out a few things in the back because we have a lot of this is gonna be a live demonstration, some incredible capabilities. Now you're going to see clear innovation inside the operating system where we worked incredibly hard to make it vast cities. You're free to manage many, many machines. I want you thinking about that as we go to this process. Now, also, keep in mind that this is the basis our core platform for everything we do here. Red hat. So it is an honor for me to be able to show it to you live on stage today. And so I recognize the many of you in the audience right now. Her hand's on systems administrators, systems, architect, citizens, engineers. And we know that you're under ever growing pressure to deliver needed infrastructure. Resource is ever faster, and that is a key element to what you're thinking about every day. Well, this has been a core theme, and our design decisions find red Odd Enterprise Lennox eight and intelligent operating system, which is making it fundamentally easier for you manage machines that scale. So hold what you're about to see next. Feels like a new superpower and and that redhead azure force multiplier. So first, let me introduce you to a large. He's totally my limits guru. >> I wouldn't call myself a girl, but I I guess you could say that I want to bring Lennox and light meant to more people. >> Okay, Well, let's let's dive in. And we're not about the clinic's eight. >> Sure. Let me go. And Morgan, >> wait a >> second. There's windows. >> Yeah, way Build the weft Consul into Really? That means that for the first time, you can log in from any device including your phone or this standard windows laptop. So you just go ahead and and to my Saturday lance credentials here. >> Okay, so now >> you're putting >> your limits password and over the web. >> Yeah, that might sound a bit scary at first, but of course, we're using the latest security tech by T. L s on dh csp on. Because that's the standard Lennox off site. You can use everything that you used to like a stage keys, OTP, tokens and stuff like this. >> Okay, so now I see the council right here. I love the dashboard overview of the system, but what else can you tell us about this council? >> Right? Like right here. You see the load of the system, some some of its properties. But you can also dive into logs everything that you're used to from the command line, right? Or lookit, services. This's all the services I've running, can start and stuff them and enable >> OK, I love that feature right there. So what about if I have to add a whole new application to this environment? >> Good that you're bringing that up. We build a new future into hell called application streams. Which the way for you to install different versions of your half stack that are supported I'LL show you with Youngmin a command line. But since Windows doesn't have a proper terminal, I'll just do it in the terminal that we built into the Web console Since the browser, I can even make this a bit bigger. Go to, for example, to see the application streams that we have for Poskus. Ijust do module list and I see you know we have ten and nine dot six Both supported tennis a default on defy enable ninety six Now the next time that I installed prescribes it will pull all their lady towards from them at six. >> Ok, so this is very cool. I see two verses of post Chris right here What tennis to default. That is fantastic and the application streams making that happen. But I'm really kind of curious, right? I loved using know js and Java. So what about multiple versions of those? >> Yeah, that's exactly the idea way. Want to keep up with the fast moving ecosystems off programming language? Isn't it a business? >> Okay, now, But I have another key question. I know some people were thinking it right now. What about Python? >> Yeah. In fact, in a minimum and still like this, python gives you command. Not fact. Just have to type it correctly. You can't just install which everyone you want two or three or whichever your application needs. >> Okay, Well, that is I've been burned on that one before. Okay, so no actual. Have a confession for all you guys. Right here. You guys keep this amongst yourselves. Don't let Paul No, I'm actually not a linnet systems administrator. I'm an application developer, an application architect, And I recently had to go figure out how to extend the file system. This is for real. And I'm going to the rat knowledge base and looking up things like, you know, PV create VD, extend resized to f s. And I have to admit, that's hard, >> right? I've opened the storage space for you right here, where you see an overview of your storage. And the council has made for people like you as well not only for people that I knew that when you two lunatics, right? It's if you're running, you're running some of the commands only, you know, some of the time you don't remember them. So, for example, I haven't felt twosome here. That's a little bit too small. Let me just throw it. It's like, you know, dragging this lighter. It calls all the command in the background for you. >> Oh, that is incredible. Is that simple? Just drag and drop. That is fantastic. Well, so I actually, you know, we'll have another question for you. It looks like now this linen systems administration is no longer a dark heart involving arcane commands typed into a black terminal. Like using when those funky ergonomic keyboards you know I'm talking about right? Do >> you know a lot of people, including me and people in the audience like that dark out right? And this is not taking any of that away. It's on additional tool to bring limits to more people. >> Okay, well, that is absolute fantastic. Thank you so much for that Large. And I really love him installing everything is so much easier, including a post gra seeker and, of course, the python that we saw right there. So now I want to change gears for a second because I actually have another situation that I'm always dealing with. And that is every time I want to build a new Lenox system, not only I don't want to have to install those commands again and again, it feels like I'm doing it over and over. So, Josh, how would I create a golden image? One VM image that can use and we have everything pre baked in? >> Yeah, absolutely. But >> we get that question all the time. So really includes image builder technology. Image builder technology is actually all of our hybrid cloud operating system image tools that we use to build our own images and rolled up in a nice, easy to integrate new system. So if I come here in the web console and I go to our image builder tab, it brings us to blueprints, right? Blueprints or what we used to actually control it goes into our golden image. Uh, and I heard you and Lars talking about post present python. So I went and started typing here. So it brings us to this page, but you could go to the selected components, and you can see here I've created a blueprint that has all the python and post press packages in it. Ah, and the interesting thing about this is it build on our existing kickstart technology. But you can use it to deploy that whatever cloud you want. And it's saved so that you don't actually have to know all the various incantations from Amazon toe azure to Google, whatever it's all baked in on. When you do this, you can actually see the dependencies that get brought in as well. Okay. Should we create one life? Yes, please. All right, cool. So if we go back to the blueprints page and we click create blueprint Let's, uh let's make a developer brute blueprint here. So we click great, and you can see here on the left hand side. I've got all of my content served up by Red Hat satellite. We have a lot of great stuff, and really, But we can go ahead and search. So we'LL look for post grows and you know, it's a developer image at the client for some local testing. Um, well, come in here and at the python bits. Probably the development package. We need a compiler if we're going to actually build anything. So look for GCC here and hey, what's your favorite editor? >> A Max, Of course, >> Max. All right. Hey, Lars, about you. I'm more of a person. You Maxim v I All right, Well, if you want to prevent a holy war in your system, you can actually use satellite to filter that out. But we're going to go ahead and Adam Ball, sweetie, I'm a fight on stage. So wait, just point and click. Let the graphical one. And then when we're all done, we just commit our changes, and our image is ready to build. >> Okay, So this VM image we just created right now from that blueprint this is now I can actually go out there and easily deploys of deploy this across multiple cloud providers. And as well as this on stage are where we have right now. >> Yeah, absolutely. We can to play on Amazon as your google any any infrastructure you're looking for so you can really hit your Clyburn hybrid cloud operating system images. >> Okay. All right, listen, we >> just go on, click, create image. Uh, we can select our different types here. I'm gonna go ahead and create a local VM because it's available image, and maybe they want to pass it around or whatever, and I just need a few moments for it to build. >> Okay? So while that's taking a few moments, I know there's another key question in the minds of the audience right now, and you're probably thinking I love what I see. What Right eye right hand Priceline say. But >> what does it >> take to upgrade from seven to eight? So large can you show us and walk us through an upgrade? >> Sure, this's my little Thomas Block that I set up. It's powered by what Chris and secrets over, but it's still running on seven six. So let's upgrade that jump over to my house fee on satellite on. You see all my relate machines here, including the one I showed you what Consul on before. And there is that one with my sun block and there's a couple others. Let me select those as well. This one on that one. Just go up here. Schedule remote job. And she was really great. And hit Submit. I made it so that it makes the booms national before. So if anything was wrong Kans throwback! >> Okay, okay, so now it's progressing. Here, >> it's progressing. Looks like it's running. Doing >> live upgrade on stage. Uh, >> seems like one is failing. What's going on here? Okay, we checked the tree of great Chuck. Oh, yeah, that's the one I was playing around with Butter fest backstage. What? Detective that and you know, it doesn't run the Afghan cause we don't support operating that. >> Okay, so what I'm hearing now? So the good news is, we were protected from possible failed upgrade there, So it sounds like these upgrades are perfectly safe. Aiken, basically, you know, schedule this during a maintenance window and still get some sleep. >> Totally. That's the idea. >> Okay, fantastic. All right. So it looks like upgrades are easy and perfectly safe. And I really love what you showed us there. It's good point. Click operation right from satellite. Ok, so Well, you know, we were checking out upgrades. I want to know Josh. How those v ems coming along. >> They went really well. So you were away for so long. I got a little bored and I took some liberties. >> What do you mean? >> Well, the image Bill And, you know, I decided I'm going to go ahead and deploy here to this Intel machine on stage Esso. I have that up and running in the web. Counsel. I built another one on the arm box, which is actually pretty fast, and that's up and running on this. Our machine on that went so well that I decided to spend up some an Amazon. So I've got a few instances here running an Amazon with the web console accessible there as well. On even more of our pre bill image is up and running an azure with the web console there. So the really cool thing about this bird is that all of these images were built with image builder in a single location, controlling all the content that you want in your golden images deployed across the hybrid cloud. >> Wow, that is fantastic. And you might think that so we actually have more to show you. So thank you so much for that large. And Josh, that is fantastic. Looks like provisioning bread. Enterprise Clinic Systems ate a redhead. Enterprise Enterprise. Rhetta Enterprise Lennox. Eight Systems is Asian ever before, but >> we have >> more to talk to you about. And there's one thing that many of the operations professionals in this room right now no, that provisioning of'em is easy, but it's really day two day three, it's down the road that those viens required day to day maintenance. As a matter of fact, several you folks right now in this audience to have to manage hundreds, if not thousands, of virtual machines I recently spoke to. Gentleman has to manage thirteen hundred servers. So how do you manage those machines? A great scale. So great that they have now joined us is that it looks like they worked things out. So now I'm curious, Tim. How will we manage hundreds, if not thousands, of computers? >> Welbourne, one human managing hundreds or even thousands of'em says, No problem, because we have Ansel automation. And by leveraging Ansel's integration into satellite, not only can we spin up those V em's really quickly, like Josh was just doing, but we can also make ongoing maintenance of them really simple. Come on up here. I'm going to show you here a satellite inventory and his red hat is publishing patches. Weaken with that danceable integration easily apply those patches across our entire fleet of machines. Okay, >> that is fantastic. So he's all the machines can get updated in one fell swoop. >> He sure can. And there's one thing that I want to bring your attention to today because it's brand new. And that's cloud that red hat dot com And here, a cloud that redhead dot com You can view and manage your entire inventory no matter where it sits. Of Redhead Enterprise Lennox like on Prem on stage. Private Cloud or Public Cloud. It's true Hybrid cloud management. >> OK, but one thing. One thing. I know that in the minds of the audience right now. And if you have to manage a large number servers this it comes up again and again. What happens when you have those critical vulnerabilities that next zero day CV could be tomorrow? >> Exactly. I've actually been waiting for a while patiently for you >> to get to the really good stuff. So >> there's one more thing that I wanted to let folks know about. Red Hat Enterprise. The >> next eight and some features that we have there. Oh, >> yeah? What is that? >> So, actually, one of the key design principles of relate is working with our customers over the last twenty years to integrate all the knowledge that we've gained and turn that into insights that we can use to keep our red hat Enterprise Lennox servers running securely, inefficiently. And so what we actually have here is a few things that we could take a look at show folks what that is. >> OK, so we basically have this new feature. We're going to show people right now. And so one thing I want to make sure it's absolutely included within the redhead enterprise in that state. >> Yes. Oh, that's Ah, that's an announcement that we're making this week is that this is a brand new feature that's integrated with Red Hat Enterprise clinics, and it's available to everybody that has a red hat enterprise like subscription. So >> I believe everyone in this room right now has a rail subscriptions, so it's available to all of them. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So let's take a quick look and try this out. So we actually have. Here is a list of about six hundred rules. They're configuration security and performance rules. And this is this list is growing every single day, so customers can actually opt in to the rules that are most that are most applicable to their enterprises. So what we're actually doing here is combining the experience and knowledge that we have with the data that our customers opt into sending us. So customers have opted in and are sending us more data every single night. Then they actually have in total over the last twenty years via any other mechanism. >> Now there's I see now there's some critical findings. That's what I was talking about. But it comes to CVS and things that nature. >> Yeah, I'm betting that those air probably some of the rail seven boxes that we haven't actually upgraded quite yet. So we get back to that. What? I'd really like to show everybody here because everybody has access to this is how easy it is to opt in and enable this feature for real. Okay, let's do that real quick, so I gotta hop back over to satellite here. This is the satellite that we saw before, and I'll grab one of the hosts and we can use the new Web console feature that's part of Railly, and via single sign on I could jump right from satellite over to the Web console. So it's really, really easy. And I'LL grab a terminal here and registering with insights is really, really easy. Is one command troops, and what's happening right now is the box is going to gather some data. It's going to send it up to the cloud, and within just a minute or two, we're gonna have some results that we can look at back on the Web interface. >> I love it so it's just a single command and you're ready to register this box right now. That is super easy. Well, that's fantastic, >> Brent. We started this whole series of demonstrations by telling the audience that Red Hat Enterprise Lennox eight was the easiest, most economical and smartest operating system on the planet, period. And well, I think it's cute how you can go ahead and captain on a single machine. I'm going to show you one more thing. This is Answerable Tower. You can use as a bell tower to managing govern your answerable playbook, usage across your entire organization and with this. What I could do is on every single VM that was spun up here today. Opt in and register insights with a single click of a button. >> Okay, I want to see that right now. I know everyone's waiting for it as well, But hey, you're VM is ready. Josh. Lars? >> Yeah. My clock is running a little late now. Yeah, insights is a really cool feature >> of rail. And I've got it in all my images already. All >> right, I'm doing it all right. And so as this playbook runs across the inventory, I can see the machines registering on cloud that redhead dot com ready to be managed. >> OK, so all those onstage PM's as well as the hybrid cloud VM should be popping in IRC Post Chris equals Well, fantastic. >> That's awesome. Thanks to him. Nothing better than a Red Hat Summit speaker in the first live demo going off script deal. Uh, let's go back and take a look at some of those critical issues affecting a few of our systems here. So you can see this is a particular deanna's mask issue. It's going to affect a couple of machines. We saw that in the overview, and I can actually go and get some more details about what this particular issue is. So if you take a look at the right side of the screen there, there's actually a critical likelihood an impact that's associated with this particular issue. And what that really translates to is that there's a high level of risk to our organization from this particular issue. But also there's a low risk of change. And so what that means is that it's really, really safe for us to go ahead and use answerable to mediate this so I can grab the machines will select those two and we're mediate with answerable. I can create a new playbook. It's our maintenance window, but we'LL do something along the lines of like stuff Tim broke and that'LL be our cause. We name it whatever we want. So we'Ll create that playbook and take a look at it, and it's actually going to give us some details about the machines. You know what, what type of reboots Efendi you're going to be needed and what we need here. So we'LL go ahead and execute the playbook and what you're going to see is the outputs goingto happen in real time. So this is happening from the cloud were affecting machines. No matter where they are, they could be on Prem. They could be in a hybrid cloud, a public cloud or in a private cloud. And these things are gonna be remediated very, very easily with answerable. So it's really, really awesome. Everybody here with a red hat. Enterprise licks Lennox subscription has access to this now, so I >> kind of want >> everybody to go try this like, we really need to get this thing going and try it out right now. But >> don't know, sent about the room just yet. You get stay here >> for okay, Mr. Excitability, I think after this keynote, come back to the red hat booth and there's an optimization section. You can come talk to our insights engineers. And even though it's really easy to get going on your own, they can help you out. Answer any questions you might have. So >> this is really the start of a new era with an intelligent operating system and beauty with intelligence you just saw right now what insights that troubles you. Fantastic. So we're enabling systems administrators to manage more red in private clinics, a greater scale than ever before. I know there's a lot more we could show you, but we're totally out of time at this point, and we kind of, you know, when a little bit sideways here moments. But we need to get off the stage. But there's one thing I want you guys to think about it. All right? Do come check out the in the booth. Like Tim just said also in our debs, Get hands on red and a prize winning state as well. But really, I want you to think about this one human and a multitude of servers. And if you remember that one thing asked you upfront. Do you feel like you get a new superpower and redhead? Is your force multiplier? All right, well, thank you so much. Josh and Lars, Tim and Brent. Thank you. And let's get Paul back on stage. >> I went brilliant. No, it's just as always, >> amazing. I mean, as you can tell from last night were really, really proud of relate in that coming out here at the summit. And what a great way to showcase it. Thanks so much to you. Birth. Thanks, Brent. Tim, Lars and Josh. Just thanks again. So you've just seen this team demonstrate how impactful rail Khun b on your data center. So hopefully hopefully many of you. If not all of you have experienced that as well. But it was super computers. We hear about that all the time, as I just told you a few minutes ago, Lennox isn't just the foundation for enterprise and cloud computing. It's also the foundation for the fastest super computers in the world. In our next guest is here to tell us a lot more about that. >> Please welcome Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. HPC solution Architect Robin Goldstone. >> Thank you so much, Robin. >> So welcome. Welcome to the summit. Welcome to Boston. And thank thank you so much for coming for joining us. Can you tell us a bit about the goals of Lawrence Livermore National Lab and how high high performance computing really works at this level? >> Sure. So Lawrence Livermore National >> Lab was established during the Cold War to address urgent national security needs by advancing the state of nuclear weapons, science and technology and high performance computing has always been one of our core capabilities. In fact, our very first supercomputer, ah Univac one was ordered by Edward Teller before our lab even opened back in nineteen fifty two. Our mission has evolved since then to cover a broad range of national security challenges. But first and foremost, our job is to ensure the safety, security and reliability of the nation's nuclear weapons stockpile. Oh, since the US no longer performs underground nuclear testing, our ability to certify the stockpile depends heavily on science based science space methods. We rely on H P C to simulate the behavior of complex weapons systems to ensure that they can function as expected, well beyond their intended life spans. That's actually great. >> So are you really are still running on that on that Univac? >> No, Actually, we we've moved on since then. So Sierra is Lawrence Livermore. Its latest and greatest supercomputer is currently the Seconds spastic supercomputer in the world and for the geeks in the audience, I think there's a few of them out there. We put up some of the specs of Syrah on the screen behind me, a couple of things worth highlighting our Sierra's peak performance and its power utilisation. So one hundred twenty five Pata flops of performance is equivalent to about twenty thousand of those Xbox one excess that you mentioned earlier and eleven point six megawatts of power required Operate Sierra is enough to power around eleven thousand homes. Syria is a very large and complex system, but underneath it all, it starts out as a collection of servers running Lin IX and more specifically, rail. >> So did Lawrence. Did Lawrence Livermore National Lab National Lab used Yisrael before >> Sierra? Oh, yeah, most definitely. So we've been running rail for a very long time on what I'll call our mid range HPC systems. So these clusters, built from commodity components, are sort of the bread and butter of our computer center. And running rail on these systems provides us with a continuity of operations and a common user environment across multiple generations of hardware. Also between Lawrence Livermore in our sister labs, Los Alamos and Sandia. Alongside these commodity clusters, though, we've always had one sort of world class supercomputer like Sierra. Historically, these systems have been built for a sort of exotic proprietary hardware running entirely closed source operating systems. Anytime something broke, which was often the Vander would be on the hook to fix it. And you know, >> that sounds >> like a good model, except that what we found overtime is most the issues that we have on these systems were either due to the extreme scale or the complexity of our workloads. Vendors seldom had a system anywhere near the size of ours, and we couldn't give them our classified codes. So their ability to reproduce our problem was was pretty limited. In some cases, they've even sent an engineer on site to try to reproduce our problems. But even then, sometimes we wouldn't get a fix for months or else they would just tell us they weren't going to fix the problem because we were the only ones having it. >> So for many of us, for many of us, the challenges is one of driving reasons for open source, you know, for even open source existing. How has how did Sierra change? Things are on open source for >> you. Sure. So when we developed our technical requirements for Sierra, we had an explicit requirement that we want to run an open source operating system and a strong preference for rail. At the time, IBM was working with red hat toe add support Terrell for their new little Indian power architecture. So it was really just natural for them to bid a red. A rail bay system for Sierra running Raylan Cyril allows us to leverage the model that's worked so well for us for all this time on our commodity clusters any packages that we build for X eighty six, we can now build those packages for power as well as our market texture using our internal build infrastructure. And while we have a formal support relationship with IBM, we can also tap our in house colonel developers to help debug complex problems are sys. Admin is Khun now work on any of our systems, including Sierra, without having toe pull out their cheat sheet of obscure proprietary commands. Our users get a consistent software environment across all our systems. And if the security vulnerability comes out, we don't have to chase around getting fixes from Multan slo es fenders. >> You know, you've been able, you've been able to extend your foundation from all the way from X eighty six all all the way to the extract excess Excuse scale supercomputing. We talk about giving customers all we talked about it all the time. A standard operational foundation to build upon. This isn't This isn't exactly what we've envisioned. So So what's next for you >> guys? Right. So what's next? So Sierra's just now going into production. But even so, we're already working on the contract for our next supercomputer called El Capitan. That's scheduled to be delivered the Lawrence Livermore in the twenty twenty two twenty timeframe. El Capitan is expected to be about ten times the performance of Sierra. I can't share any more details about that system right now, but we are hoping that we're going to be able to continue to build on a solid foundation. That relish provided us for well over a decade. >> Well, thank you so much for your support of realm over the years, Robin. And And thank you so much for coming and tell us about it today. And we can't wait to hear more about El Capitan. Thank you. Thank you very much. So now you know why we're so proud of realm. And while you saw confetti cannons and T shirt cannons last night, um, so you know, as as burned the team talked about the demo rail is the force multiplier for servers. We've made Lennox one of the most powerful platforms in the history of platforms. But just as Lennox has become a viable platform with access for everyone, and rail has become viable, more viable every day in the enterprise open source projects began to flourish around the operating system. And we needed to bring those projects to our enterprise customers in the form of products with the same trust models as we did with Ralph seeing the incredible progress of software development occurring around Lennox. Let's let's lead us to the next goal that we said tow, tow ourselves. That goal was to make hybrid cloud the default enterprise for the architecture. How many? How many of you out here in the audience or are Cesar are? HC sees how many out there a lot. A lot. You are the people that our building the next generation of computing the hybrid cloud, you know, again with like just like our goals around Lennox. This goals might seem a little daunting in the beginning, but as a community we've proved it time and time again. We are unstoppable. Let's talk a bit about what got us to the point we're at right right now and in the work that, as always, we still have in front of us. We've been on a decade long mission on this. Believe it or not, this mission was to build the capabilities needed around the Lenox operating system to really build and make the hybrid cloud. When we saw well, first taking hold in the enterprise, we knew that was just taking the first step. Because for a platform to really succeed, you need applications running on it. And to get those applications on your platform, you have to enable developers with the tools and run times for them to build, to build upon. Over the years, we've closed a few, if not a lot of those gaps, starting with the acquisition of J. Boss many years ago, all the way to the new Cuban Eddie's native code ready workspaces we launched just a few months back. We realized very early on that building a developer friendly platform was critical to the success of Lennox and open source in the enterprise. Shortly after this, the public cloud stormed onto the scene while our first focus as a company was done on premise in customer data centers, the public cloud was really beginning to take hold. Rehl very quickly became the standard across public clouds, just as it was in the enterprise, giving customers that common operating platform to build their applications upon ensuring that those applications could move between locations without ever having to change their code or operating model. With this new model of the data center spread across so many multiple environments, management had to be completely re sought and re architected. And given the fact that environments spanned multiple locations, management, real solid management became even more important. Customers deploying in hybrid architectures had to understand where their applications were running in how they were running, regardless of which infrastructure provider they they were running on. We invested over the years with management right alongside the platform, from satellite in the early days to cloud forms to cloud forms, insights and now answerable. We focused on having management to support the platform wherever it lives. Next came data, which is very tightly linked toe applications. Enterprise class applications tend to create tons of data and to have a common operating platform foyer applications. You need a storage solutions. That's Justus, flexible as that platform able to run on premise. Just a CZ. Well, as in the cloud, even across multiple clouds. This let us tow acquisitions like bluster, SEF perma bitch in Nubia, complimenting our Pratt platform with red hat storage for us, even though this sounds very condensed, this was a decade's worth of investment, all in preparation for building the hybrid cloud. Expanding the portfolio to cover the areas that a customer would depend on to deploy riel hybrid cloud architectures, finding any finding an amplifying the right open source project and technologies, or filling the gaps with some of these acquisitions. When that necessarily wasn't available by twenty fourteen, our foundation had expanded, but one big challenge remained workload portability. Virtual machine formats were fragmented across the various deployments and higher level framework such as Java e still very much depended on a significant amount of operating system configuration and then containers happened containers, despite having a very long being in existence for a very long time. As a technology exploded on the scene in twenty fourteen, Cooper Netease followed shortly after in twenty fifteen, allowing containers to span multiple locations and in one fell swoop containers became the killer technology to really enable the hybrid cloud. And here we are. Hybrid is really the on ly practical reality in way for customers and a red hat. We've been investing in all aspects of this over the last eight plus years to make our customers and partners successful in this model. We've worked with you both our customers and our partners building critical realm in open shift deployments. We've been constantly learning about what has caused problems and what has worked well in many cases. And while we've and while we've amassed a pretty big amount of expertise to solve most any challenge in in any area that stack, it takes more than just our own learning's to build the next generation platform. Today we're also introducing open shit for which is the culmination of those learnings. This is the next generation of the application platform. This is truly a platform that has been built with our customers and not simply just with our customers in mind. This is something that could only be possible in an open source development model and just like relish the force multiplier for servers. Open shift is the force multiplier for data centers across the hybrid cloud, allowing customers to build thousands of containers and operate them its scale. And we've also announced open shift, and we've also announced azure open shift. Last night. Satya on this stage talked about that in depth. This is all about extending our goals of a common operating platform enabling applications across the hybrid cloud, regardless of whether you run it yourself or just consume it as a service. And with this flagship release, we are also introducing operators, which is the central, which is the central feature here. We talked about this work last year with the operator framework, and today we're not going to just show you today. We're not going to just show you open shift for we're going to show you operators running at scale operators that will do updates and patches for you, letting you focus more of your time and running your infrastructure and running running your business. We want to make all this easier and intuitive. So let's have a quick look at how we're doing. Just that >> painting. I know all of you have heard we're talking to pretend to new >> customers about the travel out. So new plan. Just open it up as a service been launched by this summer. Look, I know this is a big quest for not very big team. I'm open to any and all ideas. >> Please welcome back to the stage. Red Hat Global director of developer Experience burst Sutter with Jessica Forrester and Daniel McPherson. All right, we're ready to do some more now. Now. Earlier we showed you read Enterprise Clinic St running on lots of different hardware like this hardware you see right now And we're also running across multiple cloud providers. But now we're going to move to another world of Lennox Containers. This is where you see open shift four on how you can manage large clusters of applications from eggs limits containers across the hybrid cloud. We're going to see this is where suffer operators fundamentally empower human operators and especially make ups and Deb work efficiently, more efficiently and effectively there together than ever before. Rights. We have to focus on the stage right now. They're represent ops in death, and we're gonna go see how they reeled in application together. Okay, so let me introduce you to Dan. Dan is totally representing all our ops folks in the audience here today, and he's telling my ops, comfort person Let's go to call him Mr Ops. So Dan, >> thanks for with open before, we had a much easier time setting up in maintaining our clusters. In large part, that's because open shit for has extended management of the clusters down to the infrastructure, the diversity kinds of parent. When you take >> a look at the open ship console, >> you can now see the machines that make up the cluster where machine represents the infrastructure. Underneath that Cooper, Eddie's node open shit for now handles provisioning Andy provisioning of those machines. From there, you could dig into it open ship node and see how it's configured and monitor how it's behaving. So >> I'm curious, >> though it does this work on bare metal infrastructure as well as virtualized infrastructure. >> Yeah, that's right. Burn So Pa Journal nodes, no eternal machines and open shit for can now manage it all. Something else we found extremely useful about open ship for is that it now has the ability to update itself. We can see this cluster hasn't update available and at the press of a button. Upgrades are responsible for updating. The entire platform includes the nodes, the control plane and even the operating system and real core arrests. All of this is possible because the infrastructure components and their configuration is now controlled by technology called operators. Thes software operators are responsible for aligning the cluster to a desired state. And all of this makes operational management of unopened ship cluster much simpler than ever before. All right, I >> love the fact that all that's been on one console Now you can see the full stack right all way down to the bare metal right there in that one console. Fantastic. So I wanted to scare us for a moment, though. And now let's talk to Deva, right? So Jessica here represents our all our developers in the room as my facts. He manages a large team of developers here Red hat. But more importantly, she represents our vice president development and has a large team that she has to worry about on a regular basis of Jessica. What can you show us? We'LL burn My team has hundreds of developers and were constantly under pressure to deliver value to our business. And frankly, we can't really wait for Dan and his ops team to provisioned the infrastructure and the services that we need to do our job. So we've chosen open shift as our platform to run our applications on. But until recently, we really struggled to find a reliable source of Cooper Netease Technologies that have the operational characteristics that Dan's going to actually let us install through the cluster. But now, with operator, How bio, we're really seeing the V ecosystem be unlocked. And the technology's there. Things that my team needs, its databases and message cues tracing and monitoring. And these operators are actually responsible for complex applications like Prometheus here. Okay, they're written in a variety of languages, danceable, but that is awesome. So I do see a number of options there already, and preaches is a great example. But >> how do you >> know that one? These operators really is mature enough and robust enough for Dan and the outside of the house. Wilbert, Here we have the operator maturity model, and this is going to tell me and my team whether this particular operator is going to do a basic install if it's going to upgrade that application over time through different versions or all the way out to full auto pilot, where it's automatically scaling and tuning the application based on the current environment. And it's very cool. So coming over toothy open shift Consul, now we can actually see Dan has made the sequel server operator available to me and my team. That's the database that we're using. A sequel server. That's a great example. So cynics over running here in the cluster? But this is a great example for a developer. What if I want to create a new secret server instance? Sure, we're so it's as easy as provisioning any other service from the developer catalog. We come in and I can type for sequel server on what this is actually creating is, ah, native resource called Sequel Server, and you can think of that like a promise that a sequel server will get created. The operator is going to see that resource, install the application and then manage it over its life cycle, KAL, and from this install it operators view, I can see the operators running in my project and which resource is its managing Okay, but I'm >> kind of missing >> something here. I see this custom resource here, the sequel server. But where the community's resource is like pods. Yeah, I think it's cool that we get this native resource now called Sequel Server. But if I need to, I can still come in and see the native communities. Resource is like your staple set in service here. Okay, that is fantastic. Now, we did say earlier on, though, like many of our customers in the audience right now, you have a large team of engineers. Lost a large team of developers you gotta handle. You gotta have more than one secret server, right? We do one for every team as we're developing, and we use a lot of other technologies running on open shift as well, including Tomcat and our Jenkins pipelines and our dough js app that is gonna actually talk to that sequel server database. Okay, so this point we can kind of provisions, Some of these? Yes. Oh, since all of this is self service for me and my team's, I'm actually gonna go and create one of all of those things I just said on all of our projects, right Now, if you just give me a minute, Okay? Well, right. So basically, you're going to knock down No Jazz Jenkins sequel server. All right, now, that's like hundreds of bits of application level infrastructure right now. Live. So, Dan, are you not terrified? Well, I >> guess I should have done a little bit better >> job of managing guests this quota and historically just can. I might have had some conflict here because creating all these new applications would admit my team now had a massive back like tickets to work on. But now, because of software operators, my human operators were able to run our infrastructure at scale. So since I'm long into the cluster here as the cluster admin, I get this view of pods across all projects. And so I get an idea of what's happening across the entire cluster. And so I could see now we have four hundred ninety four pods already running, and there's a few more still starting up. And if I scroll to the list, we can see the different workloads Jessica just mentioned of Tomcats. And no Gs is And Jenkins is and and Siegel servers down here too, you know, I see continues >> creating and you have, like, close to five hundred pods running >> there. So, yeah, filters list down by secret server, so we could just see. Okay, But >> aren't you not >> running going around a cluster capacity at some point? >> Actually, yeah, we we definitely have a limited capacity in this cluster. And so, luckily, though, we already set up auto scale er's And so because the additional workload was launching, we see now those outer scholars have kicked in and some new machines are being created that don't yet have noticed. I'm because they're still starting up. And so there's another good view of this as well, so you can see machine sets. We have one machine set per availability zone, and you could see the each one is now scaling from ten to twelve machines. And the way they all those killers working is for each availability zone, they will. If capacities needed, they will add additional machines to that availability zone and then later effect fast. He's no longer needed. It will automatically take those machines away. >> That is incredible. So right now we're auto scaling across multiple available zones based on load. Okay, so looks like capacity planning and automation is fully, you know, handle this point. But I >> do have >> another question for year logged in. Is the cluster admin right now into the console? Can you show us your view of >> operator suffer operators? Actually, there's a couple of unique views here for operators, for Cluster admits. The first of those is operator Hub. This is where a cluster admin gets the ability to curate the experience of what operators are available to users of the cluster. And so obviously we already have the secret server operator installed, which which we've been using. The other unique view is operator management. This gives a cluster I've been the ability to maintain the operators they've already installed. And so if we dig in and see the secret server operator, well, see, we haven't set up for manual approval. And what that means is if a new update comes in for a single server, then a cluster and we would have the ability to approve or disapprove with that update before installs into the cluster, we'LL actually and there isn't upgrade that's available. Uh, I should probably wait to install this, though we're in the middle of scaling out this cluster. And I really don't want to disturb Jessica's application. Workflow. >> Yeah, so, actually, Dan, it's fine. My app is already up. It's running. Let me show it to you over here. So this is our products application that's talking to that sequel server instance. And for debugging purposes, we can see which version of sequel server we're currently talking to. Its two point two right now. And then which pod? Since this is a cluster, there's more than one secret server pod we could be connected to. Okay, I could see right there the bounder screeners they know to point to. That's the version we have right now. But, you know, >> this is kind of >> point of software operators at this point. So, you know, everyone in this room, you know, wants to see you hit that upgrade button. Let's do it. Live here on stage. Right, then. All >> right. All right. I could see where this is going. So whenever you updated operator, it's just like any other resource on communities. And so the first thing that happens is the operator pot itself gets updated so we actually see a new version of the operator is currently being created now, and what's that gets created, the overseer will be terminated. And that point, the new, softer operator will notice. It's now responsible for managing lots of existing Siegel servers already in the environment. And so it's then going Teo update each of those sickle servers to match to the new version of the single server operator and so we could see it's running. And so if we switch now to the all projects view and we filter that list down by sequel server, then we should be able to see us. So lots of these sickle servers are now being created and the old ones are being terminated. So is the rolling update across the cluster? Exactly a So the secret server operator Deploy single server and an H A configuration. And it's on ly updates a single instance of secret server at a time, which means single server always left in nature configuration, and Jessica doesn't really have to worry about downtime with their applications. >> Yeah, that's awesome dance. So glad the team doesn't have to worry about >> that anymore and just got I think enough of these might have run by Now, if you try your app again might be updated. >> Let's see Jessica's application up here. All right. On laptop three. >> Here we go. >> Fantastic. And yet look, we're We're into two before we're onto three. Now we're on to victory. Excellent on. >> You know, I actually works so well. I don't even see a reason for us to leave this on manual approval. So I'm going to switch this automatic approval. And then in the future, if a new single server comes in, then we don't have to do anything, and it'll be all automatically updated on the cluster. >> That is absolutely fantastic. And so I was glad you guys got a chance to see that rolling update across the cluster. That is so cool. The Secret Service database being automated and fully updated. That is fantastic. Alright, so I can see how a software operator doesn't able. You don't manage hundreds if not thousands of applications. I know a lot of folks or interest in the back in infrastructure. Could you give us an example of the infrastructure >> behind this console? Yeah, absolutely. So we all know that open shift is designed that run in lots of different environments. But our teams think that as your redhead over, Schiff provides one of the best experiences by deeply integrating the open chief Resource is into the azure console, and it's even integrated into the azure command line toll and the easy open ship man. And, as was announced yesterday, it's now available for everyone to try out. And there's actually one more thing we wanted to show Everyone related to open shit, for this is all so new with a penchant for which is we now have multi cluster management. This gives you the ability to keep track of all your open shift environments, regardless of where they're running as well as you can create new clusters from here. And I'll dig into the azure cluster that we were just taking a look at. >> Okay, but is this user and face something have to install them one of my existing clusters? >> No, actually, this is the host of service that's provided by Red hat is part of cloud that redhead that calm and so all you have to do is log in with your red hair credentials to get access. >> That is incredible. So one console, one user experience to see across the entire hybrid cloud we saw earlier with Red update. Right and red embers. Thank Satan. Now we see it for multi cluster management. But home shift so you can fundamentally see. Now the suffer operators do finally change the game when it comes to making human operators vastly more productive and, more importantly, making Devon ops work more efficiently together than ever before. So we saw the rich ice vehicle system of those software operators. We can manage them across the Khyber Cloud with any, um, shift instance. And more importantly, I want to say Dan and Jessica for helping us with this demonstration. Okay, fantastic stuff, guys. Thank you so much. Let's get Paul back out here >> once again. Thanks >> so much to burn his team. Jessica and Dan. So you've just seen how open shift operators can help you manage hundreds, even thousands of applications. Install, upgrade, remove nodes, control everything about your application environment, virtual physical, all the way out to the cloud making, making things happen when the business demands it even at scale, because that's where it's going to get. Our next guest has lots of experience with demand at scale. and they're using open source container management to do it. Their work, their their their work building a successful cloud, First platform and there, the twenty nineteen Innovation Award winner. >> Please welcome twenty nineteen Innovation Award winner. Cole's senior vice president of technology, Rich Hodak. >> How you doing? Thanks. >> Thanks so much for coming out. We really appreciate it. So I guess you guys set some big goals, too. So can you baby tell us about the bold goal? Helped you personally help set for Cole's. And what inspired you to take that on? Yes. So it was twenty seventeen and life was pretty good. I had no gray hair and our business was, well, our tech was working well, and but we knew we'd have to do better into the future if we wanted to compete. Retails being disrupted. Our customers are asking for new experiences, So we set out on a goal to become an open hybrid cloud platform, and we chose Red had to partner with us on a lot of that. We set off on a three year journey. We're currently in Year two, and so far all KP eyes are on track, so it's been a great journey thus far. That's awesome. That's awesome. So So you Obviously, Obviously you think open source is the way to do cloud computing. So way absolutely agree with you on that point. So So what? What is it that's convinced you even more along? Yeah, So I think first and foremost wait, do we have a lot of traditional IAS fees? But we found that the open source partners actually are outpacing them with innovation. So I think that's where it starts for us. Um, secondly, we think there's maybe some financial upside to going more open source. We think we can maybe take some cost out unwind from these big fellas were in and thirdly, a CZ. We go to universities. We started hearing. Is we interviewed? Hey, what is Cole's doing with open source and way? Wanted to use that as a lever to help recruit talent. So I'm kind of excited, you know, we partner with Red Hat on open shift in in Rail and Gloucester and active M Q and answerable and lots of things. But we've also now launched our first open source projects. So it's really great to see this journey. We've been on. That's awesome, Rich. So you're in. You're in a high touch beta with with open shift for So what? What features and components or capabilities are you most excited about and looking forward to what? The launch and you know, and what? You know what? What are the something maybe some new goals that you might be able to accomplish with with the new features. And yeah, So I will tell you we're off to a great start with open shift. We've been on the platform for over a year now. We want an innovation award. We have this great team of engineers out here that have done some outstanding work. But certainly there's room to continue to mature that platform. It calls, and we're excited about open shift, for I think there's probably three things that were really looking forward to. One is we're looking forward to, ah, better upgrade process. And I think we saw, you know, some of that in the last demo. So upgrades have been kind of painful up until now. So we think that that that will help us. Um, number two, A lot of our open shift workloads today or the workloads. We run an open shifts are the stateless apse. Right? And we're really looking forward to moving more of our state full lapse into the platform. And then thirdly, I think that we've done a great job of automating a lot of the day. One stuff, you know, the provisioning of, of things. There's great opportunity o out there to do mohr automation for day two things. So to integrate mohr with our messaging systems in our database systems and so forth. So we, uh we're excited. Teo, get on board with the version for wear too. So, you know, I hope you, Khun, we can help you get to the next goals and we're going to continue to do that. Thank you. Thank you so much rich, you know, all the way from from rail toe open shift. It's really exciting for us, frankly, to see our products helping you solve World War were problems. What's you know what? Which is. Really? Why way do this and and getting into both of our goals. So thank you. Thank you very much. And thanks for your support. We really appreciate it. Thanks. It has all been amazing so far and we're not done. A critical part of being successful in the hybrid cloud is being successful in your data center with your own infrastructure. We've been helping our customers do that in these environments. For almost twenty years now, we've been running the most complex work loads in the world. But you know, while the public cloud has opened up tremendous possibilities, it also brings in another type of another layer of infrastructure complexity. So what's our next goal? Extend your extend your data center all the way to the edge while being as effective as you have been over the last twenty twenty years, when it's all at your own fingertips. First from a practical sense, Enterprises air going to have to have their own data centers in their own environment for a very long time. But there are advantages of being able to manage your own infrastructure that expand even beyond the public cloud all the way out to the edge. In fact, we talked about that very early on how technology advances in computer networking is storage are changing the physical boundaries of the data center every single day. The need, the need to process data at the source is becoming more and more critical. New use cases Air coming up every day. Self driving cars need to make the decisions on the fly. In the car factory processes are using a I need to adapt in real time. The factory floor has become the new edge of the data center, working with things like video analysis of a of A car's paint job as it comes off the line, where a massive amount of data is on ly needed for seconds in order to make critical decisions in real time. If we had to wait for the video to go up to the cloud and back, it would be too late. The damage would have already been done. The enterprise is being stretched to be able to process on site, whether it's in a car, a factory, a store or in eight or nine PM, usually involving massive amounts of data that just can't easily be moved. Just like these use cases couldn't be solved in private cloud alone because of things like blatant see on data movement, toe address, real time and requirements. They also can't be solved in public cloud alone. This is why open hybrid is really the model that's needed in the only model forward. So how do you address this class of workload that requires all of the above running at the edge? With the latest technology all its scale, let me give you a bit of a preview of what we're working on. We are taking our open hybrid cloud technologies to the edge, Integrated with integrated with Aro AM Hardware Partners. This is a preview of a solution that will contain red had open shift self storage in K V M virtual ization with Red Hat Enterprise Lennox at the core, all running on pre configured hardware. The first hardware out of the out of the gate will be with our long time. Oh, am partner Del Technologies. So let's bring back burn the team to see what's right around the corner. >> Please welcome back to the stage. Red Hat. Global director of developer Experience burst Sutter with Kareema Sharma. Okay, We just how was your Foreign operators have redefined the capabilities and usability of the open hybrid cloud, and now we're going to show you a few more things. Okay, so just be ready for that. But I know many of our customers in this audience right now, as well as the customers who aren't even here today. You're running tens of thousands of applications on open chef clusters. We know that disappearing right now, but we also know that >> you're not >> actually in the business of running terminators clusters. You're in the business of oil and gas from the business retail. You're in a business transportation, you're in some other business and you don't really want to manage those things at all. We also know though you have lo latest requirements like Polish is talking about. And you also dated gravity concerns where you >> need to keep >> that on your premises. So what you're about to see right now in this demonstration is where we've taken open ship for and made a bare metal cluster right here on this stage. This is a fully automated platform. There is no underlying hyper visor below this platform. It's open ship running on bare metal. And this is your crew vanities. Native infrastructure, where we brought together via mes containers networking and storage with me right now is green mush arma. She's one of her engineering leaders responsible for infrastructure technologies. Please welcome to the stage, Karima. >> Thank you. My pleasure to be here, whether it had summit. So let's start a cloud. Rid her dot com and here we can see the classroom Dannon Jessica working on just a few moments ago From here we have a bird's eye view ofthe all of our open ship plasters across the hybrid cloud from multiple cloud providers to on premises and noticed the spare medal last year. Well, that's the one that my team built right here on this stage. So let's go ahead and open the admin console for that last year. Now, in this demo, we'LL take a look at three things. A multi plaster inventory for the open Harbor cloud at cloud redhead dot com. Second open shift container storage, providing convert storage for virtual machines and containers and the same functionality for cloud vert and bare metal. And third, everything we see here is scuba unit is native, so by plugging directly into communities, orchestration begin common storage. Let working on monitoring facilities now. Last year, we saw how continue native actualization and Q Bert allow you to run virtual machines on Cabinet is an open shift, allowing for a single converge platform to manage both containers and virtual machines. So here I have this dark net project now from last year behead of induced virtual machine running it S P darknet application, and we had started to modernize and continue. Arise it by moving. Parts of the application from the windows began to the next containers. So let's take a look at it here. I have it again. >> Oh, large shirt, you windows. Earlier on, I was playing this game back stage, so it's just playing a little solitaire. Sorry about that. >> So we don't really have time for that right now. Birds. But as I was saying, Over here, I have Visions Studio Now the window's virtual machine is just another container and open shift and the i d be service for the virtual machine. It's just another service in open shift open shifts. Running both containers and virtual machines together opens a whole new world of possibilities. But why stop there? So this here be broadened to come in. It is native infrastructure as our vision to redefine the operation's off on premises infrastructure, and this applies to all matters of workloads. Using open shift on metal running all the way from the data center to the edge. No by your desk, right to main benefits. Want to help reduce the operation casts And second, to help bring advance good when it is orchestration concept to your infrastructure. So next, let's take a look at storage. So open shift container storage is software defined storage, providing the same functionality for both the public and the private lads. By leveraging the operator framework, open shift container storage automatically detects the available hardware configuration to utilize the discs in the most optimal vein. So then adding my note, you don't have to think about how to balance the storage. Storage is just another service running an open shift. >> And I really love this dashboard quite honestly, because I love seeing all the storage right here. So I'm kind of curious, though. Karima. What kind of storage would you What, What kind of applications would you use with the storage? >> Yeah, so this is the persistent storage. To be used by a database is your files and any data from applications such as a Magic Africa. Now the A Patrick after operator uses school, been at this for scheduling and high availability, and it uses open shift containers. Shortest. Restore the messages now Here are on premises. System is running a caf co workload streaming sensor data on DH. We want toe sort it and act on it locally, right In a minute. A place where maybe we need low latency or maybe in a data lake like situation. So we don't want to send the starter to the cloud. Instead, we want to act on it locally, right? Let's look at the griffon a dashboard and see how our system is doing so with the incoming message rate of about four hundred messages for second, the system seems to be performing well, right? I want to emphasize this is a fully integrated system. We're doing the testing An optimization sze so that the system can Artoo tune itself based on the applications. >> Okay, I love the automated operations. Now I am a curious because I know other folks in the audience want to know this too. What? Can you tell us more about how there's truly integrated communities can give us an example of that? >> Yes. Again, You know, I want to emphasize everything here is managed poorly by communities on open shift. Right. So you can really use the latest coolest to manage them. All right. Next, let's take a look at how easy it is to use K native with azure functions to script alive Reaction to a live migration event. >> Okay, Native is a great example. If actually were part of my breakout session yesterday, you saw me demonstrate came native. And actually, if you want to get hands on with it tonight, you can come to our guru night at five PM and actually get hands on like a native. So I really have enjoyed using K. Dated myself as a software developer. And but I am curious about the azure functions component. >> Yeah, so as your functions is a function is a service engine developed by Microsoft fully open source, and it runs on top of communities. So it works really well with our on premises open shift here. Right now, I have a simple azure function that I already have here and this azure function, you know, Let's see if this will send out a tweet every time we live My greater Windows virtual machine. Right. So I have it integrated with open shift on DH. Let's move a note to maintenance to see what happens. So >> basically has that via moves. We're going to see the event triggered. They trigger the function. >> Yeah, important point I want to make again here. Windows virtue in machines are equal citizens inside of open shift. We're investing heavily in automation through the use of the operator framework and also providing integration with the hardware. Right, So next, Now let's move that note to maintain it. >> But let's be very clear here. I wanna make sure you understand one thing, and that is there is no underlying virtual ization software here. This is open ship running on bear. Meddle with these bare metal host. >> That is absolutely right. The system can automatically discover the bare metal hosts. All right, so here, let's move this note to maintenance. So I start them Internets now. But what will happen at this point is storage will heal itself, and communities will bring back the same level of service for the CAFTA application by launching a part on another note and the virtual machine belive my great right and this will create communities events. So we can see. You know, the events in the event stream changes have started to happen. And as a result of this migration, the key native function will send out a tweet to confirm that could win. It is native infrastructure has indeed done the migration for the live Ian. Right? >> See the events rolling through right there? >> Yeah. All right. And if we go to Twitter? >> All right, we got tweets. Fantastic. >> And here we can see the source Nord report. Migration has succeeded. It's a pretty cool stuff right here. No. So we want to bring you a cloud like experience, but this means is we're making operational ease a fuse as a top goal. We're investing heavily in encapsulating management knowledge and working to pre certify hardware configuration in working with their partners such as Dell, and they're dead already. Note program so that we can provide you guidance on specific benchmarks for specific work loads on our auto tuning system. >> All right, well, this is tow. I know right now, you're right thing, and I want to jump on the stage and check out the spare metal cluster. But you should not right. Wait After the keynote didn't. Come on, check it out. But also, I want you to go out there and think about visiting our partner Del and their booth where they have one. These clusters also. Okay, So this is where vmc networking and containers the storage all come together And a Kurban in his native infrastructure. You've seen right here on this stage, but an agreement. You have a bit more. >> Yes. So this is literally the cloud coming down from the heavens to us. >> Okay? Right here, Right now. >> Right here, right now. So, to close the loop, you can have your plaster connected to cloud redhead dot com for our insights inside reliability engineering services so that we can proactively provide you with the guidance through automated analyses of telemetry in logs and help flag a problem even before you notice you have it Beat software, hardware, performance, our security. And one more thing. I want to congratulate the engineers behind the school technology. >> Absolutely. There's a lot of engineers here that worked on this cluster and worked on the stack. Absolutely. Thank you. Really awesome stuff. And again do go check out our partner Dale. They're just out that door I can see them from here. They have one. These clusters get a chance to talk to them about how to run your open shift for on a bare metal cluster as well. Right, Kareema, Thank you so much. That was totally awesome. We're at a time, and we got to turn this back over to Paul. >> Thank you. Right. >> Okay. Okay. Thanks >> again. Burned, Kareema. Awesome. You know, So even with all the exciting capabilities that you're seeing, I want to take a moment to go back to the to the first platform tenant that we learned with rail, that the platform has to be developer friendly. Our next guest knows something about connecting a technology like open shift to their developers and part of their company. Wide transformation and their ability to shift the business that helped them helped them make take advantage of the innovation. Their Innovation award winner this year. Please, Let's welcome Ed to the stage. >> Please welcome. Twenty nineteen. Innovation Award winner. BP Vice President, Digital transformation. Ed Alford. >> Thanks, Ed. How your fake Good. So was full. Get right into it. What we go you guys trying to accomplish at BP and and How is the goal really important in mandatory within your organization? Support on everyone else were global energy >> business, with operations and over seventy countries. Andi. We've embraced what we call the jewel challenge, which is increasing the mind for energy that we have as individuals in the world. But we need to produce the energy with fuel emissions. It's part of that. One of our strategic priorities that we >> have is to modernize the whole group on. That means simplifying our processes and enhancing >> productivity through digital solutions. So we're using chlo based technologies >> on, more importantly, open source technologies to clear a community and say, the whole group that collaborates effectively and efficiently and uses our data and expertise to embrace the jewel challenge and actually try and help solve that problem. That's great. So So how did these heart of these new ways of working benefit your team and really the entire organ, maybe even the company as a whole? So we've been given the Innovation Award for Digital conveyor both in the way it was created and also in water is delivering a couple of guys in the audience poll costal and brewskies as he they they're in the team. Their teams developed that convey here, using our jail and Dev ops and some things. We talk about this stuff a lot, but actually the they did it in a truly our jail and develops we, um that enabled them to experiment and walking with different ways. And highlight in the skill set is that we, as a group required in order to transform using these approaches, we can no move things from ideation to scale and weeks and days sometimes rather than months. Andi, I think that if we can take what they've done on DH, use more open source technology, we contain that technology and apply across the whole group to tackle this Jill challenge. And I think that we use technologists and it's really cool. I think that we can no use technology and open source technology to solve some of these big challenges that we have and actually just preserve the planet in a better way. So So what's the next step for you guys at BP? So moving forward, we we are embracing ourselves, bracing a clothed, forced organization. We need to continue to live to deliver on our strategy, build >> over the technology across the entire group to address the jewel >> challenge and continue to make some of these bold changes and actually get into and really use. Our technology is, I said, too addresses you'LL challenge and make the future of our planet a better place for ourselves and our children and our children's children. That's that's a big goal. But thank you so much, Ed. Thanks for your support. And thanks for coming today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now comes the part that, frankly, I think his best part of the best part of this presentation We're going to meet the type of person that makes all of these things a reality. This tip this type of person typically works for one of our customers or with one of with one of our customers as a partner to help them make the kinds of bold goals like you've heard about today and the ones you'll hear about Maura the way more in the >> week. I think the thing I like most about it is you feel that reward Just helping people I mean and helping people with stuff you enjoy right with computers. My dad was the math and science teacher at the local high school. And so in the early eighties, that kind of met here, the default person. So he's always bringing in a computer stuff, and I started a pretty young age. What Jason's been able to do here is Mohr evangelize a lot of the technologies between different teams. I think a lot of it comes from the training and his certifications that he's got. He's always concerned about their experience, how easy it is for them to get applications written, how easy it is for them to get them up and running at the end of the day. We're a loan company, you know. That's way we lean on accounting like red. That's where we get our support front. That's why we decided to go with a product like open shift. I really, really like to product. So I went down. The certification are out in the training ground to learn more about open shit itself. So my daughter's teacher, they were doing a day of coding, and so they asked me if I wanted to come and talk about what I do and then spend the day helping the kids do their coding class. The people that we have on our teams, like Jason, are what make us better than our competitors, right? Anybody could buy something off the shelf. It's people like him. They're able to take that and mold it into something that then it is a great offering for our partners and for >> customers. Please welcome Red Hat Certified Professional of the Year Jason Hyatt. >> Jason, Congratulations. Congratulations. What a what a big day, huh? What a really big day. You know, it's great. It's great to see such work, You know that you've done here. But you know what's really great and shows out in your video It's really especially rewarding. Tow us. And I'm sure to you as well to see how skills can open doors for for one for young women, like your daughters who already loves technology. So I'd liketo I'd like to present this to you right now. Take congratulations. Congratulations. Good. And we I know you're going to bring this passion. I know you bring this in, everything you do. So >> it's this Congratulations again. Thanks, Paul. It's been really exciting, and I was really excited to bring my family here to show the experience. It's it's >> really great. It's really great to see him all here as well going. Maybe we could you could You guys could stand up. So before we leave before we leave the stage, you know, I just wanted to ask, What's the most important skill that you'LL pass on from all your training to the future generations? >> So I think the most important thing is you have to be a continuous learner you can't really settle for. Ah, you can't be comfortable on learning, which I already know. You have to really drive a continuous Lerner. And of course, you got to use the I ninety. Maxwell. Quite. >> I don't even have to ask you the question. Of course. Right. Of course. That's awesome. That's awesome. And thank you. Thank you for everything, for everything that you're doing. So thanks again. Thank you. You know what makes open source work is passion and people that apply those considerable talents that passion like Jason here to making it worked and to contribute their idea there. There's back. And believe me, it's really an impressive group of people. You know you're family and especially Berkeley in the video. I hope you know that the redhead, the certified of the year is the best of the best. The cream of the crop and your dad is the best of the best of that. So you should be very, very happy for that. I also and I also can't wait. Teo, I also can't wait to come back here on this stage ten years from now and present that same award to you. Berkeley. So great. You should be proud. You know, everything you've heard about today is just a small representation of what's ahead of us. We've had us. We've had a set of goals and realize some bold goals over the last number of years that have gotten us to where we are today. Just to recap those bold goals First bait build a company based solely on open source software. It seems so logical now, but it had never been done before. Next building the operating system of the future that's going to run in power. The enterprise making the standard base platform in the op in the Enterprise Olympics based operating system. And after that making hybrid cloud the architecture of the future make hybrid the new data center, all leading to the largest software acquisition in history. Think about it around us around a company with one hundred percent open source DNA without. Throughout. Despite all the fun we encountered over those last seventeen years, I have to ask, Is there really any question that open source has won? Realizing our bold goals and changing the way software is developed in the commercial world was what we set out to do from the first day in the Red Hat was born. But we only got to that goal because of you. Many of you contributors, many of you knew toe open source software and willing to take the risk along side of us and many of partners on that journey, both inside and outside of Red Hat. Going forward with the reach of IBM, Red hat will accelerate. Even Mohr. This will bring open source general innovation to the next generation hybrid data center, continuing on our original mission and goal to bring open source technology toe every corner of the planet. What I what I just went through in the last hour Soul, while mind boggling to many of us in the room who have had a front row seat to this overto last seventeen plus years has only been red hats. First step. Think about it. We have brought open source development from a niche player to the dominant development model in software and beyond. Open Source is now the cornerstone of the multi billion dollar enterprise software world and even the next generation hybrid act. Architecture would not even be possible without Lennox at the core in the open innovation that it feeds to build around it. This is not just a step forward for software. It's a huge leap in the technology world beyond even what the original pioneers of open source ever could have imagined. We have. We have witnessed open source accomplished in the last seventeen years more than what most people will see in their career. Or maybe even a lifetime open source has forever changed the boundaries of what will be possible in technology in the future. And in the one last thing to say, it's everybody in this room and beyond. Everyone outside continue the mission. Thanks have a great sum. It's great to see it

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Run. Welcome back to the Cubes live coverage here in San Francisco. Mosconi North while you're here as part of our exclusive covers. The Cube for IBM think twenty nineteen, their annual conference of customers and employees coming together to set the agenda for the next year. For IBM and its ecosystem. I'm John for a student. Um, in day. Volonte and Lisa Martin co hosting all week This week. Four days of wall to wall coverage. Day two of our kind Really Day one of the show Kickoff. We're here ending out that day and just had the CEO's keynote, and we're going to a review and analysis. David's do. We had a lot of interviews. Coming up to this theme is pretty clear. It's a I cloud and everything else going underneath that classic development application. Developers, developers in general, making applications That's classic, but eyes the big story. And, like like Always Cloud and the promise of Where That's Going, which is hybrid and multi cloud Dave, You set on the keynote. Any surprises from Ginny Rometty? >> I wouldn't say there were any surprises. First of all, I like Jenny. I think she she's a great presenter. I'd like to hang out with their like we were kids. That was what I wanted to hang out with us. He's a time person. I think I would feel comfortable talking to, you know, sports or business. She looked good. She had a really nice, sharp white suit on. She's self deprecating. She was drinking Starbucks. You know, they're obviously a client of IBM. I got the best moment was when Jim White hearse came on stage. He said, It's great to be here So he was like, Yeah, given thirty four billion reasons why it's great to be here kind of thing, So that was pretty funny. And she had. She made the comment. We've been dating Red Hat for twenty years before we decided to get married. She was trying to make a case You normally in Jenny's presentation, she she makes a really solid, puts forth the solid premise and then sort of backs it up with her guests. Today, I thought her premise, which was we're entering Chapter two. It's all about scaling and embedding a I everywhere. It's about hybrid. It's about bringing mission critical APS, you know, move those forward. And she had a number of other lessons learned. I thought she laid it out, but I think it sort of missed the back end. I don't think they punctuated the tail end of Jenny's talk. The guests were great and they had guys on from Kaiser Permanente E. T. And they were very solid. Well, think they made the case as strong as the premises that she put forward. And you know, we could talk more about that. >> And Stewart see red hat on stage. We've been commenting. We've been analyzing the acquisition of Red Hat, big number, thirty four billion dollars critical point you guys talk about in your opening on day one, the leverage they need to get out of that. This is the Alamo for them with the cloud. In my opinion, IBM is a lot to bring to the bear in the cloud. They I anywhere telegraphs that they wanna have their stuff with containers and multiple clouds. They want to be positioned as a multi cloud company but still have their cloud, providing the power for the workload. That makes sense, right? Bm. This is their last stand. This is like, you know, the Alamo for them. They They need to make cloud work right now. Watson, move from a product or brand ballistically open step. Is it tied together? Stew your thoughts on open stack and how this fits into their narrative. >> So I think you mean open shift, right, John s o from red hat standpoint. Absolutely what they're doing. They are involved in open stack, but open stack. You got a small, >> but they're one of the few that are sanguine on Open, Zachary read. >> I mean, read had open shift. My bad >> way it absolutely. And it is complicated in the multi cloud world and lots of different pieces. We've had a number of conversations with the IBM people that have worked with side by side, red hat in the open source communities, IBM, no stranger to open source and a CZ we talked about in our open on yesterday. It's the developers is really what where IBM needs to go and where Red Hat has a bevy of them on DH John. What you said about Multi Cloud? Absolutely. It's if IBM thinks that buying Red hat will make them the Goebel Global player in Cloud. I think that's wrong, and I don't think that's what they're doing. When I wrote a block post when it came, and I said, Is this move going to radically change the cloud landscape? No. Can this acquisition radically change IBM and change the trajectory of where they fit into Multi cloud? Absolutely. So there's cultural differences. We had Ah, Stephanie sheriffs on who's a longtime IBM er who now runs the biggest business inside of Red Hat. And she talked about the passion of open source. This is not lip service. I've many friends that have worked for it. Had I've, you know, worked with them, partner with them and cover them for most of those twenty years on DH? Absolutely. You've got over ten thousand people that are passionate involved in communities on DH. When you talk about the developer world, you talk about the cloud native world. This is what you know. Really. Red Hat moment has been waiting. >> It was interesting. John and I would like one if you could comment on this is you hearing IBM? Jenny talked about Chapter two. She took a digital reinvention. Here's yet another company using the reinvent terminology. I think that's what sort of pointed she talked. About forty percent of the world is going to be private. Sixty percent is going to be public Cloud. The sort of that's the first time I've heard those that she said It's flipped if you're ah, regulated industry. But what do your thoughts on people essentially using and Amazons narrative on reinvention? >> Everyone's using Amazons narrative. Here's the bottom line. Amazon is winning impact large margins. I think the numbers airway skewed in the favor of the people trying to catch up. I think that's more of a game. If vacation by the analyst firms, Amazon is absolutely blowing away the competition when it comes to public loud. The only game at the table right now for the Oracle's, IBM, Sze and Microsoft and Google is the slow down the adoption of Amazon. And you see the cloud adoption of Amazon, whether it's in the government sector, which I think is more acute. And Mohr illustrative, the Jet I contract a ten billion dollar contract. That is a quote sole source deal. But it was bid as a multi source deal means anyone could bid on it. Well, guess what? That is a going to be an award and probably to Amazon as the sole winner because IBM doesn't have the certification. Nor does Microsoft notice Oracle. Nobody's got Amazons winning that, and that begs the argument. Can you use one cloud? And the answer is Yes, you can. If the APP worked, Load works best for it, and procurement does not decide output for the cloud. For example, if it's a Jet I contract, it's a military application. So, like a video game, would you want to play a video game and be lagging? Would you want our military to be lagging? Certainly, the D O d. Says no. So one cloud makes sense. If you're running office three sixty five, you want to use azure. So Microsoft has taken that, and their earnings have been phenomenal by specialising around their workloads. That makes sense for Azure, and they're catching up. IBM has an opportunity to do the same for their workload. The business workload. So aye, aye, anywhere is interesting to me. So I think this is a good bet. If they can pull it off, that's the strategy, and the world will go multi cloud, where certain clouds will be sold for the apple sole source for the workloads. That makes sense for those workload. So this is where the market's going, right? So this whole notion of there won't be multi class. It's going to be multi cloud and it's gonna winner, winner take most. And the game right now is to stop ama's. That is clearly the case, and you're seeing it in the bids you see in the customer base. And IBM is catching Oppa's fast as they can. They got the people and the technology. The question is, how much do they catch up and level up? Tamas on? >> Well, stew despite Jenny, you know, invoking the reinvent terminology, they're her. Kino was starkly different than what you would expect from an Amazon Kino. They may. She mentioned a couple of the announcements, Watson anywhere, which, by the way, is about time. It's about time that Watson ran on other people's clouds of it, which should have been a while ago and in hyper protect is the world's most secure cloud. But we don't have any really details on that. And then I'd be in business automation with Watson, and that was really it. I think it was by design not to give a big product pitch, you know, very non Steve jobs. Like very done, Andy Jazzy like which is all product product product. I mean, kind of surprising in a big show with all these customers. You think they'd be pitching, but I think their intent was to really be more content. Orient >> Well, So Dave, you know, goes back at the core. What is IBM's biggest business? IBM biggest businesses. So services. So I've done a number of interviews this week already talking about how IBM is helping with digital transformation, how they're helping people move to more agile and development for environments. You know, the multi cloud world. How do they know IBM has a long history with C. S, P s and M s peace? So they have large constituencies And sure, they have products. You know, great stuff talking about, You know, how do they have the best infrastructure to run your workloads and the strength that they haven't supercomputing in HPC. And how they can leverage that? Because IBM knows a thing or two about scale. But, you know, Dave, one of the questions I have for you is we've seen the big services organizations go through radical downsizing. You know, HP spun off their business. Del got rid of the Perot business. You know, IBM still is, you know, services. At its core, it is IBM built for the multi cloud cloud native. You know, Ai ai world, Or do they still need to go through some massive changes? >> Well, multi Cloud is complicated and complex. IBM does complicated services, you know, deal with complexity, but I still can't help but feel like, >> Well, I well, I thought, wouldn't comment on them. I think the services. If the Manual Services Professional Services dropped down, IBM has a great opportunity to move them to cloud based services, meaning I can write software. And this is where I think they have an advantage. They could really nail the business applications, which will become services, whether its domain expertise in a vertical. And I think this is their cloud opportunity. IBM could capture that they could take entirely new category of applications. Business applications and services, automate them with machine learning, automate them with cloud scale their cloud scale while making them portable on multiple clouds. So the notion of services will be the professional services classic your grandfather's services, too. Cloud based services at scale. >> Yeah, well, I think you're right. Look, that's one. IBM is biggest strengths, and Jenny did that acquisition. By the way. The PwC acquisition is one hundred thousand. People instantly brought IBM into that deep vertical industry expertise, and they're not going to give that up any time soon. And this so many opportunities to code. If I those services or that song you know, through software and make them repeatable services, I mean, they're at as a service. Business is one of the fastest growing parts of IBM, you know, revenue stream. So I don't see that going. Wait. All I do think there was a missed opportunity and maybe they can't talk about it for was some regulatory reason. They're just paranoid. But you had white hearse up on the stage. You just spent thirty four billion dollars. I would have liked to hurt Mohr about the rationale, even though we've heard it before. They did. You know, Jim and Jeannie did a tour there on all the big TV shows You're on Kramer. But I would have liked to heard sort of six months on what that rationale is and how they're going to help transform with this in this new chapter and what that role that red hat was going play, I thought it was a missed opportunity. >> Well, speculate on that. I think of things. Probably. They probably don't have their answer yet. IBM is very good on messaging. You know, they're pretty tight, but I think Arvin Krishna talked to assert this morning. On our first interview. He brought up the container ization and Coburn Eddie's trend. I think that's where red hat fits and melons and give them cloud Native developers in Enterprise Fortune one thousand. They also got the cloud native ecosystem behind that the C in C F etcetera. But Containers does for Legacy Container ization, and Cooper daddies really preserves legacy. It allows developers to essentially keep the old while bringing in the new and managing the life cycle of those applications, not a ribbon replace. This is an opportunity for IBM, and if I think the messaging folks and the product dies or probably figure out okay, how do we take the red hat and open shift and be cloud native and take all the goodness that comes in with cloud Native the new developers, the Devil Infrastructures code, make under the covers infrastructure programmable and is Rob Thomas pointed out, having horizontal data layer that enables new kinds of business services. So to me, container ization, it's kind of nerdy Cooper netease. But this is really a new linchpin to what could be a sea change for IBM in terms of revenue. Keeping the Legacy customs happy because then the pressure to move to Amazon goes away because I can say, Whoa, wait. If the question is, why adopt if customs have an answer for that that gives IBM time, This is what they want otherwise, cloud native worlds could move very, very fast. We've seen the velocity of the momentum, and I think that's a key move. >> I think your point about slowing down the Amazon momentum is a good one, and I want to talk about five things that Ginny said that lessons learned, she said. One. You can approach the world from outside in and focus on customer experience. Or you could do inside out, identify new ways to work and new work flows, you know, kind of driving change. The third lesson learned was You need a business platform fueled by data with invented A I. The fourth is you need an ai ai platform. And in the fifth is Rob Thomas is you can't have a eye without a word that you needed information, architecture, which, by the way, I believe it to be true. So those are business oriented discussions. It's not something that you necessarily here from Amazon there kind of chewy. There's the services component to all that. The big question I have is Well, Watson, be that ai ai platform. >> Yeah, I mean something, You know, I look at is why Doe I choose a platform and a partner. So we understand Amazon, you know, they want to be the leader and everything. They have a lot more services in anyone. But, you know, if I want data services, first cloud that comes to mind to me is Google. You know, Google has a real strength there, You know. Where does IBM have a leadership compared to Google business productivity? IBM has a lot of strength there, but Microsoft also has a place so you know, customers. If they're going to live, Multi cloud, they're going Teo in many ways go backto best of breed on DH. Therefore, where will IBM differentiate themselves from some of those? >> We have visibility down. It's clear now that the industry the fog is lifting, starting to see Cem clear lines of sight and a few major trends. And it's pretty clear on where the industry's going for the next ten years. Application developers at the top of the stack gonna build APS The infrastructures cloud cloud something multi cloud cloud, native infrastructures, code and data. And a I see that Amazon reinvent sage maker. You're seeing all the major innovations happening around APS using data power advice, cloud scale, that's it. Everything else to me is glue or some sort of fabric component. Or a piece of that distributed architecture and its cloud. Aye, aye, and an apple. >> A CZ. Dave is often said, it's the innovation sandwich of today. >> Yeah, well, so I guess the things I want to mention it because of me. There's been some high profile failed failures with Watson, But watching was trying to do some things that were not, you know, voice response to Alexa, you know, solve cancer, you know, world problems and so I think IBM is actually earned the right to be in the discussion, and the Red had acquisition gives IBM instant credibility in this game, especially in this a multi cloud game. >> Well, they got me. They have the right to be the zillions of customers. They have a lot of a lot of business model innovations with that that their customers are innovating on. And if they keep the cloud innovate, they gotta match the specs. Specs of the cloud. They gotta be there with Cloud. If they don't make the cloud work, they're going to be subservient to the other clouds. They have to make it in the top three. This is clear. Hey, I think I think we're working a lot of experience and data. I think Watson kind of finding his home is a brand's natural fit. Got a portfolio of data? I think IBM will do very well in the data front. It's the cloud game that they got a really sure up. They got to make sure that IBM cloud conserved. They're custom, >> but the good news is there is there. In the game we saw HPD tried to get into HPD, tried to get the cloud it failed. Cisco, for a while, was trying to get with Sawyer. AMC make of numerous attempts. VM were made, made numerous attempts. IBM spent two billion dollars in software. They they they've got a cloud. You know, they've transformed what was essentially a bare metal hosting platform, you know, into a cloud. They've jammed all there as a service products in there. They're SAS portfolio. So there, at least in the game and, you know, again, I've said often, I think they're very Oracle like it's not the biggest cloud. It's not going to scale to the Amazon levels, but they've got a cloud, and it's a key part of the strategy. >> Innovation Sandwich applications Cloud What data? In the middle of a I. That's the formula, David said on the Q beer. All right day to coverage for the Cuba. Four days were here in the lobby of Mosconi North, part of the new refurbished Mosconi Center in San Francisco. Howard Street's closed. It feels like Salesforce. Dreamforce event. Big event in San Francisco. I'm John First Amendment Dave along. They were here for four days Day, two of four days of coverage for IBM think back tomorrow. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) [Announcer] Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Re:Invent, 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hello, welcome back here to Las Vegas. We're at the Sands Expo in Hall D, perhaps a friend in the area, come on by, say hi to Justin Warren and John Walls here, on the set of theCUBE, joined here by David Cramer, who is the President of Digital Services Operations for BMC software. David, good to see you. >> Good to see you. Thanks for having me. >> All the way from Austin, Texas, deep in the Lone Star state. >> Yes sir. >> All right, so everyone's going to the cloud, right? That's obviously, why, you know, why so many people are here. What do you see it in terms of how they get in there, what are they doing there, and who hasn't made that move yet, and why not? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So a lot of people are in different spots in this journey. Some people are just starting out with the journey to cloud, which is surprising, but as popular as cloud is there are still some companies out there who just haven't made the move. Sometimes for regulatory reasons, sometimes for cost reasons, or sometimes they just don't have the business need, or they just don't see the opportunity. Then the majority of the customers I talk to are somewhere on that path. They've either begun to move applications or they're actually moving applications and building new applications to take advantage of the cloud. And so for us as a company, we see a tremendous opportunity to help our customers figure out the right way to move to cloud. Because it wasn't that long ago, just a few years back, when you heard people talking about cloud first, lift and shift, I'm moving everything to the cloud. I think people have stepped back from that and said, well, wait a minute, let's think about what cloud infrastructure, cloud services can provide us, and then let's optimize what we put in the cloud because certainly you can spend a lot of money using cloud services if you're not too careful. >> Yeah, you hit a big word there. Optimize. Right, it's about, it's kind of fun to just start throwing, I wouldn't say, mud on the wall, but just making the big move and also you realize you're into it for a little more money than maybe you thought you should have been. >> Absolutely, and there's a cultural phenomenon that's driving this, and that is DevOps and the desire to release more software to get new products, new features, innovation into the market means that you have to let your teams be autonomous. You can't have a command and control structure where every decision comes from the top. But that autonomy creates an opportunity for waste, creates an opportunity for mistakes, misconfigurations, security issues. So one of the reasons that I mention the everybody moves everything there and then says, wait a minute. Maybe that wasn't the right move, maybe we should be cloud smart instead of cloud first. >> Yeah. I do speak a lot with developers and companies in that ecosystem and there's a lot of talk about replatforming, taking applications that we had on our existing on-side infrastructure and then replatforming that to cloud because cloud requires doing things in a completely new way. Whereas, if you just take the old thing that you had, and just lift and shift and move it to cloud it tends not to work out quite so well. We're noticing a trend and we've heard that a lot today here at this show that people aren't moving everything to cloud and we now have a change in Amazon's view of the world, that actually, cloud is not the one true way, you are actually allowed to have some stuff on-site now. Some things can stay there and that's okay. So what is BMC doing with customers to help them decide which things should be moved and which things should stay where they are. >> It's a great point you brought up, because there were a lot of people who were saying let's rearchitect for the cloud and the applications that they were looking at weren't going to benefit from the elasticity or the things that cloud environment provides. And I've talked to lots of CIOs who will tell you I can deliver a virtual machine for a lot less money than the virtual machines the cloud vendors deliver. >> Yeah. >> So to answer the question, BMC has a rich history in the data center. So one of the first things we learn is that our performance data, our capacity data, and the information we have about the application architectures and the way they live in the data center, whether that be physical infrastructure, virtual infrastructure, containers, we can help a lot to identify what are the high value assets where you can save a lot of money by migrating them to a cloud. What are the assets that aren't going to save you a lot of money and you're just going to lift and shift and not get those benefits. So I say that from a performance and capacity optimization standpoint, that's one of the starting places. A second is application discovery and dependency mapping. One of the challenges in IT has long been is what do I have and how is it configured. If I'm going to move something to the cloud, I sure need to know what it looks like in my data center and we provide a lot of help there with our world class discovery technologies. >> Right. Another thing about moving to the cloud that we've heard with a bunch of previous guests here on theCUBE today, is security. >> Yes. >> Security is a fundamental thing that we have to get right, particularly when we move to cloud. So what are some of the things of BMC, what's your security story, Dave? >> Yeah, it's a very important part of the strategy and one that we developed because we began this journey ourselves about five years ago, as we looked at our customers and the way they wanted to consume services. We said, well, shoot, we should be building new apps in Amazon environments and we actually have services that leverage Amazon Lambda. So, we then said great, now we have to learn about running cloud-hosted applications or cloud-native applications and how to secure them. So a lot of our solutions came from our own learnings. Specifically our focus areas are around optimizing the security and configuration of the cloud infrastructure layer and the platform layer. A lot of customers don't realize the shared responsibility model that Amazon. They've done a great job of telling people about this model. But a lot of customers, like the ostrich in the sand, they're just not thinking, or they're not looking at it, and so they expect Amazon or someone else to take care of all these problems. And when you set up a service and Amazon, certainly, they're taking care of a lot of security but they're not securing the things that you put in that environment, your software, the middleware, the different services you connect together. So we're helping customers secure the configuration of those services, but we're also helping customers with spend, because one of the challenges we just talked about around DevOps and autonomy is if you give a developer access to Amazon and the suite of services they offer, it's like a kid in the candy store. And of course, they want gold-plated everything. I want the best environment with the best database, the most advanced services, and all that ends up costing a whole lot of money. >> Yeah, you got to put me in the candy store. That's exactly where I'm going. >> Right. >> Right. >> All right, so we've also been talking about volume, data volume, and how it kind of boggles the human mind now, right? >> Oh, yeah. >> And why automation is essential. You have to keep up. >> Huge part. >> Is it beyond our ability now to keep up with it as humans. >> I think, most people who we talk would agree that we're past human scale. You know, when you begin to look at the number of containers that services like Google Maps. If you do some research, they're spending up millions of containers every day and then spending them back down in some cases. So, you can't take old methods and old approaches to an environment like that where you're at hyper-scale some of the time, and you're not at hyper-scale other times. And so we've seen a huge shift in mindset. We used to talk about push button automation. 'Cause we've been selling automation in the data center, gosh, all the way back to the mainframe, BMC's been selling automation. But it was smart people figuring out what to automate and then hitting the button. What we're now seeing is trust, where they're allowing the automation routines to take over and actually run. Now in some cases that's driven by machine learning and really advanced algorithms. In other cases, it's very simple policy based. But we are seeing a big shift from I don't trust automation to gosh, I have to trust it. And I think some of that is based on Amazon themselves, with things like auto skill rules. >> It's still got to be hard to cede control like that when you're used to doing it yourself, and now to rely on another mechanism. That just runs against my nature. >> Yeah, and it runs against the DevOps cultural trend we talked about, where you're trying to let the teams be autonomous. Every CIO I've spoken to in the last five years cares about what they call guard rails or governance. They realize that it can't be top-down decision-making. They have to let the teams have some freedom, but they also realize that if they don't put up guard rails, and they don't restrict the choices, restrict the opportunity for mistakes, they're going to be in trouble from a cost or a security or even a performance perspective. >> Innovation is fabulous until you fall off a cliff and die. We do actually need to have a fence at the edge of that cliff. That would be a good plan. >> Well, yeah, if you talk to the DevOps teams themselves, one of the things I always like to ask is who are the ops guys in the room? And normally you have a bunch of developers, and you ask well, who cares about compliance. Nobody. They want to build cool new features. >> Right >> Who cares about code scanning and testing your software. Maybe one guy puts his hand up and says I'm the QA guy, or I'm the security guy. So there's also a cultural thing that we're seeing operations blend into these new models, and we're seeing operations teams who are classically central, IT-Ops teams, moving into the DevOps world, moving into the cloud-Ops world. >> We were just commenting before during the break about the nature of this show. And that IT pros, and your traditional infrastructure type people, they would be at different shows. They're all here now. >> They are. >> We are definitely seeing that real blend between what used to be purely developers, front-end software developers would be at this show. Now we have IT pros, we have all the infrastructure groups, we have all the companies. >> Security guys. >> Security guys. All of these people are now at this show, working together in that one team idea. >> Yeah, it's fascinating. We've talked a lot about ops everywhere. We've talked about development everywhere. Because if you go to any large enterprise, the new IT operators they're trying to hire, all have development skills. They all have programing backgrounds. And they're all coming to shows like this because they're being tasked with this concept that BMC calls run and reinvent. You've got to continue to run your existing business. Well who better than the IT operators to do that. They've been doing that for years. But you've also got to reinvent, and you've got to compete, and who better to do that than our innovators, our developers, the people out front trying to create that innovation that will transform or game-change an industry. So it's fascinating >> Reinvent. I mean, that'd be a great name for a trade show. >> And I didn't even do that on purpose. (laughing) >> David, thank you for sharing your time with us and good luck on down the road. >> Great. Thanks a lot. >> David Kramer, joining us from BMC software. We will be back from re:Invent in just a moment. We're live here in Las Vegas. You're watching theCUBE. (lively music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The CUBE, covering VMworld 2017, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we're live here in Las Vegas. Behind me is the VM Village, this is The CUBE on the ground live at VMworld, I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. Excited to have Sanjay Poonen, Cube VIP new badge that's going out. Five or more times you get a special badge on the website Chief Operating Officer, Chief Customer Operations as well at VMware, Sanjay. >> I think I won one of your hoop madness what do you call those Cube >> John: Yeah, that's right. You did get one of those. >> One of them, so add that to the smallest. >> Came in second to the bot, next year you won. We're going to have to check the algorithm on it that's before we had machine learning, so... Sanjay, great to see you. >> Always a pleasure, John and Dave, thank you for having me here. >> So, you know, in fairness to the VMware management team I got to say, great content program. Usually you can see, kind of, maybe some things that are kind of a little futuristic on the spot big time, on the content. True private cloud, data that Wikibon reported on, you guys are right in line with that. Hybrid-cloud is where its going from multi-cloud. You talk multi-cloud, the Kubernetes orchestration vision for Cloud Native, and even you were doing some interviewing on stage. >> Trying to be Anderson Cooper. >> So, tell us, what's your perspective because you got to balance here you got the reality of the Amazon relationship front and center, delivered big time there, shipping, western region, VMware on-prem, and on-cloud and this new cloud native vector of orchestration and simplicity. >> Yeah, I think, at least from our perspective as I describe in sort of that one chart where I try to put it in Sesame Street simple terms as I like to describe. VMware is one of the most fundamental companies that had a incredible impact in the data center, taking more costs and complexity. We are the defacto backbone of almost everybody's data center, but as the data center moves to the cloud you got to ask yourself, what's the relevance, and we've now shown, same way with the desktop going to mobile, and that's the end-user stuff that we've talked about the last few shows. But let's focus on that cloud part. We really felt as people extended to the public cloud we had to change our strategy to not seek to be a public cloud ourselves, and that's the reason we divested VCloud Air, and focused on significant things we could do with the leading public cloud vendors. As you know, Andy Jassy is a classmate of mine, Pat, Raghu, myself, began the discussions with Andy two years ago, and we announced the deal last year in October. This year having him on stage was, for me, personally a dream come true, and really nice to see that announcement, but we wanted to make sure we were also relevant to some of the other clouds. So earlier this year, in February, we announced Horizon Cloud, the VDI product manager. Today, we announced Kubernetes VMware, Pivotal and Google Form in Kubernetes, IBM Cloud. So all of the top four clouds, AWS, Azure, Google, and IBM have something going with VMware being with Pivotal. That's a big statement to our multi-cloud vision. >> And what a changeover from just two years ago when the ecosystem was, kind of, like a deer in the headlights, not knowing which way to zig or zag, do they cross the street. Where are we going with this? Now the clarity's very clear, cloud, and IoT, and edge with Amazon right there, a lot of the workloads there with multi-cloud. So the question I got to have you is that, as we just talked to the Google guys, is VMware turning into an arms dealer? Because that's a nice position to be at, because you're now driving VMware into multiple clouds. >> I think, you know, when I was on your show last time I described this continent called VMware, and then bridges into them. (John laughs) Let me try another and see if this works. That was good, but it had its 12-month shelf life. Think about the top four public clouds as sort of Mount Rushmore type figures. Each at different heights, AWS, Azure, Google, IBM Cloud, in market share they're the top four. If you want to build a house on top of Mount Rushmore, okay, it could work, but you're going to have to build it on top of one president's head. The moment you want to build it, you need some concrete infrastructure that fills in all the holes between them. That's VMware. It's the infrastructure platform that can sit on top of those varied disparate levels of Mount Rushmore, and make yourself relevant from on. So that's why we fell, whether you want to call that a quintessential platform, an arms provider, whatever it is, for the 4,400 cloud providers, plus the top four or five public cloud players today, VMware has to be relevant. We weren't two or three years ago. Now, for the top three, we're very relevant. >> I call it a binding agent. You're the binding agent across clouds, that's what you're really trying to become. But I wonder if, you know, you're talking about the clarity. I mean, VMware, things are good right now. Two years ago, was looking kind of hmmm, maybe not so good, with license growth down, and now it's up, stock prices double digits, >> Stock prices almost highest >> Okay, so I want to understand the factors behind that. You mentioned the clarity around vCloud Air and the AWS agreement, clearly. The second I want to attest is, the customer reality of cloud, that I can't just ship my business to the cloud, ship my data to the cloud. I got to bring the cloud model to the data. Did that in your conversation with customers, those two factors lead to customers being more comfortable, signing longer term agreements with you guys. Is that a bit part of the tailwind? I wonder if you could discuss that. >> Yeah, Dave I think that's absolutely right. One of the things I've learned in my 25 years of IT is, you want to keep being strategic to your customers. You never want to be in a place where you're in a cul-de-sac. And I started to sense, right, not definitively, but perhaps two years ago, there was a little it of that cul-de-sac perception as our license revenue was growing, particularly on this cloud strategy. Are you trying to be a public cloud, are you not, what's your stance versus AWS as one example, and with vCloud Air, there was a little bit of that hesitation. And if you asked our sales teams, the clarifying of our cloud strategy, which last year was okay but didn't have the substance or the punch. Now you've got an AWS coming on stage, and the other cloud providers where we have substance. I think that clarifying the cloud strategy game the ability for customers to say, even while they were waiting for AWS to be shipped, the last year, three or four quarters are spending of on-premise VMware stuff has gone up, 'cause they see us as strategic. The second aspect I think is our products are now a lot more mature than they were before outside of B sphere. VMware cloud foundation, which consists of storage, networking, VSAN, NSX, and you've talked to those people on your stage, workspace one, end user computing. These have really, really helped, and I think the third factor is, we've really focused on building a very strong team, from Pat, myself, to Raghu, Rajeev, Ray, Mauricio, Robin, I think it's a world-class infrastructure, so we just added Claire Dixon as our Chief Comms Officer on eBay. This is for us now, and everyone in the rest of the organization, we want to continue building a world-class sort of warrior-style strength in numbers. >> Quick follow-up if I may, just a little Jim Kramer moment. And the financial's looking good, you just raised four billion of cheap debt, right the operating cash flow, three billion dollars, and the nice thing about the clarity around vCloud Air is, the capital expenditure, it's just a very capital-efficient model that you guys have now, and I've been saying, you can't say it, but to me the stock's undervalued. When you do the ratios and the multiples on those factors, it looks like a cheap stock to me. >> John: I would love to see you buy it because we have to disclose it, the big position in VMware. >> No, no, no. >> We don't have any stock >> I wish we did. >> We just want to keep growing and the market will fairly value us over time. >> Yeah, it will. >> Well you guys had a good team at VMware, so let's just go back and unpack that. So there was a transformation. Peter Burrows was talking about IBM over the years, had a massive transformation, so really kind of a critical moment for VMware as you're pointing out. We had this great discipline, great technology, great community folks, still there now, as you mentioned, but that transition from saying, we got to post a position, are we in cloud or not, let's make a decision and move on, and as Dave said, it's good economics behind not having a cloud, but I saw a slide that said VMware Cloud, you can still have a cloud strategy using Amazon. Okay, I get that. So the question for you is this. This is the debate that we've been having. Just like in the cryptocurrency market, you're seeing native tokens in cryptography, and then secondary tokens, just one went crazy today. With cloud, we see native cloud, and then new clouds that are going to be specialty clouds. You're seeing a huge increase the long-tail power law of cloud providers that are sitting on other clouds. We think this is a trend. How does VMware help those potential ascensior clouds, the Deloitte clouds, the farming drone cloud that's going to have unique applications? So if applications become clouds, how does VMware help that? >> That's a really good question. So first off, we have 4,400 cloud providers that built their stacks on VMware. And it could be some of these sourced. Probably the best example are companies like Rackspace, OVH, T-Systems. And we're going to continue to empower them, and I think many of them that are in country-specific areas, France, Germany, China, Asia, have laws that require data to be there, and I think they quite frankly have a long existence, and some of them like Rackspace have adapted their model to be partnering with AWS, so we're going to continue to help them, and that's our VMware cloud provider program, that's going to be great. The other phenomenon we see happening is these mini data centers starting to form at what's called the edge. So edge computing is really almost like this mobile device becoming bigger and bigger, it becomes like a refrigerator, it becomes like a mini data center, and it's not sitting in the cloud, it's actually sitting in a branch someplace or somewhere external. VMware Stack could actually become the software that powers that whole thing. So if you believe that basically cloud providers are going to be three or four or five big public clouds, a bunch of cloud providers are country-specific, or vertical-specific, again in these edge computings, VMware becomes quintessentially important to all of those, and we become, whether you call it a platform, a glue, or whatever have you, and our goal is to make sure we're pervasive in all of those. I think it's going to, world is go, going to go from mobile cloud to cloud edge, I mean the whole word of cloud and edge computing is the future. >> So you believe that there potentially could be another second coming of more CSPs exploding big time. >> Especially with edge computing, and country-specific rules. There's some countries that just won't do business with a US public cloud because of whatever reason. >> Well, many of those 4,400 would say, hey, we have to have a niche so we can compete with AWS, so we don't get AWS-ized. So what's your message to those guys now that you're sort of partnered up with AWS? >> Listen, OVH is a good example. Virtuastream's another, I'll give you two good examples. OVH, we sold vCloud Air to them. We are helping those customers be successful. I go to some of those calls jointly with them, they are based in France expending some of their presence to the US, and have got some very specific IP that makes their data centers efficient. We want to help then be successful. Some of the technology that we've built in vCloud Air, we're now licensing to them so we can them be successful. Virtustream, you know Rodney Rogers being on your show. Mission-critical apps is tough for some of the public clouds to get right. They've perfected the art, and I've known them from my SAP days. So there's going to be some of these other clouds that are going to be enormously successful in their niche, and their niche are going to get bigger and bigger. We want to make sure every one of them are successful. And I think there's a big opportunity for multiple vendors to be successful. It won't be just the top three or four public clouds. There will be some boutique usage by country or some horizontal or vertical use case. >> Good for an arms dealer. Well this is my whole point, this is what we've been getting at. We're kind of riffing in real time, little competitive strategy, we got the Harvard MBA and I'm the Babson guy, we'll arm wrestle it out here, maybe do some car karaoke together. But this brings up the question, and I've been saying for a long time on The Cube, and Dave and I have been talking about, we see a long tail, torso neck expanding, where right now it's a knife-edge, long tail, top native clouds and then nobody else. So I think we're going to see this expand out where specialty clouds are going to come out for your reasons. So that is going to open up the door, and those guys they're not going to want their own cloud. >> Sanjay: I agree. >> And that's a channel, an app, who knows? >> You look at an example, one, two other examples of specialty clouds, these are SAS vendors. If you look at two vertical companies, Viva and Guidewire. These are SAS companies that are in the life sciences and insurance space. They've been enormously successful in a space that you're probably maybe a Zapier Salesforce would have done, but they have been focused in a vertical market, insurance and life sciences. And I think there's going to be many providers the same way at the IS level or the PAS level, to also be successful and we welcome, this is going to be a large multi-cloud world. >> Edge cloud. You guys talking about the edge before. Pat had the slide of the pendulum swinging. >> Sanjay: Exactly. >> What is that edge cloud do to the existing business? Is it disruptive or is it evolutionary in your opinion? >> It's disruptive in the sense that, if you've taken a hardware-centric view of that, I think you're going to be disrupted. You take things like software-defined WAN, software-defined networking. So I think the beauty of software is that we're not depending on the size of the hardware that sits underneath it, whether it's a big data center or small edge of the cloud. We're building this to be an all-form factors, and I agree with Marc Andreessen in the sense the software's eating up the world. So given the fact that VMware >> And the edge. >> Yeah, our premise is if there's more computing that's moving to the edge, more software define happening at the edge, we should benefit from that. The hardware vendors will have to adapt, and that's good. But software becomes quintessential. Now I think the edge is showing a little bit of, like, you know, Peter Levine had a story about how cloud computing might be extinct if edge computing takes off. Because what's happening is this machine starts to get bigger and bigger and sits in a branch or in some local place, and it's away from the cloud. So I think it actually is a beautiful world where if you're willing to adapt quickly, which software lets you do, adapt quickly, I think there's a bright future as world moves cloud, mobile, and edge. >> Great stuff, Sanjay, and I was referencing car karaoke, you have on your Twitter >> Oh the carpool karaoke. >> The carpool karaoke. >> It was a fun little thing. Maybe we could do it together, three of us some time. (John laughs) >> I don't do karaoke. Final... >> Just sing, man Just be out there doing your thing. >> I embarrass myself on The Cube enough, I don't need karaoke to help there. >> David: I'm in. (laughs) >> All right, I'll do it. All right, final question for you. >> That's a deal. Let's do it. >> Final question, Michael Dell and we're talking, the world's upside down right now, the computer industry has been thrown up in the air, it's going to be upside down, reconfiguration. You've been in the business for a long time, you've seen many waves. Actually the waves now are pretty clear. What's the fallout going to be from this for customers, for the vendors, for how people buy and build relationships in this new world? >> I think there's a couple of fundamental principles. I talked about one, software, let's not repeat that. I think ecosystems rule. It's really important that you don't look at yourself as having to own the full stack, you know VMware's chosen to be hardware-dependent. Yes, we're owned by Dell, but you've seen us announce a HP partnership here, right? You've seen us do deals with Fujitsu. We had AWS Cloud and Google Cloud. So when you view the world, I love this line by Isaac Newton, he said, "I see clearly because I stand on the shoulders of giants." And to me, that's a very informed strategy to actually guide our ecosystem strategy. Who are the giants in our space? It's the companies that are relevant, with the biggest market caps. Apple, Google, Microsoft, you know, AWS is part of Amazon, and then you know, HP, EMC, Dell, so and so, we list them, by my SAP. If we're relevant to all of them, I'd love to see the momentum of VMworld and the momentum to reinvent start coalescing. Collectively there's probably a hundred thousand people who come to all of our VMware vForums. Andy Jassy told me he expects 40,000 at re:Invent, and maybe across all of his AWS summits, he has a hundred thousand. I was sharing with him an idea. Why don't we have these two amoebas of growing conferences start to coalesce where we mingle, maybe 20% goes to both conferences, but we'll come to your show and be the best software vendor, that hijacks your show, so to speak, (John laughs) I didn't use that word. But we become the best vendor, and we'll roll out the red carpet to you. Now we've got a collection of 200,000, we couldn't have done that on our own. That's an example of AWS and VMware partnering. Now it doesn't have to be exclusively AWS, we could do it with another partner too. Microsoft doesn't show up at the AWS re:Invent conference, we do. Similarly we could maybe do something very specific with Azure and VDI at the Microsoft event, or Kubernetes and Google. So for VMware, our strategy needs to be highly relevant to the power players in the ecosystem, and the guiding our software-defined strategy to make that work, and I think if we do that, you know, you could see this be a 10 billion and bigger company. >> Well it says it's not a zero sum game, >> Sanjay: No, everybody wins. >> And if you can stay in the game, everybody wins, right. >> And I think in the software-defined infrastructure space, we like our odds. We feel we could be the leading player in that software-defined area. >> And it changes and reimagines that relationship between how people consume or procure technology, because the cloud's a mosaic, as Sam Ramji was telling me earlier. >> Oh you had Sam on your show? Wonderful. >> I had him on earlier, and he sees the cloud as a mosaic. >> He's a fantastic thought leader in open source, we were deeply grateful to have him at our event today. >> Andy Jassy, your classmate and friend, collaborator, he was onstage, great performance that he gave. Really talking to your crowd, saying, "We got your back," basically. Not a barney deals, not a optical deal, we are in on it, we're investing, and we got your back. That's interesting. >> We want to be with all of the key leaders that are driving significant parts of the ecosystem, we want to be friends, our tent is large. If everybody. Provided there's, like you said, not a barney announcement, so provided there's value to the customer. If there is, our tent is large, right? We will have point competitors, you know, here and there, and you know me, I'm very competitive. >> John: (laughs) No! >> I've not named competitors too much in this show. >> Really, really. >> But, if anything now, my mind's a lot more focused on the ecosystem, and I want to make this tent large for as many, many players to come here and have a big presence at VMworld. >> And the ecosystem is reforming around this new cloud reality, and the edge is going to change that shape even further. >> Competing on value, competing in a new ecosystem requires a new way to think about relationships. >> If I could give you one other example, then. In the world of mobile, who would have thought that the most important company to mobile security and enterprise to Apple is VMware now, thanks to AirWatch, or to Samsung, whatever it might be, right. This is the world we live in, and we have to constantly adapt ourselves. So maybe next year we'll be talking about IoT or something different, and their ecosystem. >> Sanjay Poonen, COO of VMware, good friend inside The Cube, always candid. Thanks for sharing your commentary and color on the industry, VMware and your personal perspective. I'm John Furrier, Cube coverage live in Las Vegas, here on the ground floor in the VM Village. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> live from the Congress Centre in London, England. It's the queue at M i t. And the digital economy The second machine age Brought to you by headlines sponsor M i t. >> I already We're back Dave along with Student of American Nelson and Macca Fear are back here after the day Each of them gave a detailed presentation today related to the book Gentlemen, welcome back to to see you >> Good to see you again I want to start with you >> on a question. That last question That and he got from a woman when you're >> starting with him on a question that was asked of him Yes. And you'LL see why when you find something you like. You dodged the question by the way. Fair for record Hanging out with you guys makes us smarter. Thank you. Hear it? So the question was >> around education She expressed real concern, particularly around education for younger people. I guess by the time they get to secondary education it's too late. You talked about in the book about the three r's we need to read. Obviously we need to write Teo be able to do arithmetic in our head. Sure. What's your take on that on that question. You >> know those basics, our table stakes. I mean, you have to be able to do that kind of stuff. But the real payoff comes from creativity doing something really new and original. The good news is that most people love being creative and original. You look at a kid playing, you know, whether it there two or three years old, that's all that you put some blocks in front of them. They start building, creating things, and our school system is, Andy was saying in his his talkers, questions was, is that many of the schools are almost explicitly designed to tamp that down to get people to conform, get them to all be consistent. Which is exactly what Henry Ford needed for his factories, you know, to work on the assembly line. But now that machines could do that repetitive, consistent kind of work, it's time to let creativity flourish again. And that's when you got to do on top of those basic skills. >> So I have one, and it's pretty clear that that that are Kramer education model. It's really hard for some kids to accept. They just want they want to run around. They want to go express themselves. They wantto poke a world. That's not what that grid full of desks is designed to do. >> We call that a d d. Now I follow. Yeah, I have one >> Montessori kid out of my foot. Really? He's by far the most creative most ano didactic. You're a Montessori Travel Marie, not the story. Have it right? Is that >> Look, I'm not educational research. I am Amon a story kid. I think she got it right. And she was able to demonstrate that she could take kids out of the slums of Bologna who were, at the time considered mentally defective. There's this notion that the reason the poor are poor because they were they were just mentally insufficient. And she could show their learning and their progress. So I completely agree with Eric. We need all of our students need to be able to Teo, accomplish the basics, to read, to write, to do basic math. What Montessori taught me is you can get there via this completely kind of hippie freeform route. And I'm really happy for that education talk. Talk about you and your students. >> Your brainstorm on things that people could do with computers. Can't. >> Yeah, a lot of money >> this and exercise that you do pretty regularly. What's that? How is >> that evolved? A little >> something. We do it more systematically, I almost always doing in at talking over where With Forum. It's a kind of dinner conversation out we can't get away from. So we're hearing a lot. And you know, there's a recurring patterns that emerged, and you heard some of them today around interpersonal skills around creativity. Still, coordination is still physical coordination. What some of these have in common is that their skills that we've evolved over literally, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions of years. And there are billions of neurons devoted to some of these skills. Coordination, vision, interpersonal skills and other skills like arithmetic is something that's really very recent, and we don't have a lot of neurons devoted to that. So it's not surprising the machines can pick up those more recent skills more than the Maurin eight ones. Now overtime, will machines be able to do more of those other skills? I suspect they probably will exactly how long it will take. That's the question for neuroscientists. The AI researchers >> made me make that country think about not just diagnosing a patient but getting them to comply with the treatment regimen. Take your medicine. Eat better. Stop smoking. We know the compliance rates for terrible for demonstrably good ideas. How do we improve them? Is in a technology solution a little bit. Is it an interpersonal solution? Absolutely. I think we need deeply empathetic, deeply capable people to help each other become healthier, become better people. Right Program might come from an algorithm, but that algorithm on the computer that spits it out is going to be lousy at getting most people to comply. Way need human beings for that. So when >> we talking technology space, we've been evangelizing that people need to get rid of what we call the undifferentiated having lifting. And I wonder if there's an opportunity in our personal life, you think about how much time we spend Well, you know, what are we doing for dinner when we're running the kids around? You know, how do I get dressed in the different things that have here their studies sometimes like waste so much brain power, trying to get rid of these things and there's opportunities. Welcome, Jetsons. Actually, no, they >> didn't have these problems that can help us with some of that. I think people should actually help us with over of it. You know, I actually I have a personal trainer and he's one of the last people that I would ever have exclude from my life because he's the guy who could actually help me lead a healthier life. And I play so much value on that. >> I like your metaphor of this is undifferentiated stuff, that really it's not the stuff that makes you great. It's just stuff you have to do. And I remember having a conversation with folks that s AP, and they said, you know, sure would like to brag about this, but we take away a lot of stuff that isn't what differentiates companies in the back office stuff. Getting your basic bookkeeping, accounting, supply chain stuff done and it's interesting. I think we could use the same thing for for personal lives. Let's get rid of that sort of underbrush of necessity stuff so we can focus on the things that are uniquely good at >> alright so way have to run out when I need garbage bags with toilet paper. Honestly, a drone should show up and drop that on my friends. >> So I wonder when I look at the self driving car that you've talked about, will we reach a point that not only do we trust computers in the car, it's cars to drive herself? But we've reached a point where we're just got nothing. Trust humans anymore because self driving cars there just so much safer and better than what we've got is that coming >> in the next twenty years? I personally think so, and the first time is deeply weird and unsettling. I think both of us were a little bit terrified the first time we drove in the Google Autonomous Car and the Google or driving it hit the button and took his hands off the controls. That was a weird moment. I liken it to when I was learning to scuba dive. Very first breath you take underwater is deeply unsettling because you're not supposed to be doing this. After a few breaths, it becomes background. >> But you know, I was I was driving to the airport to come here, and I look in the lanes left to me. There's a woman, you know, texting, and I'd be much you're terrifying if she wasn't driving. If the computer is doing because then we could be more, that's the right way to think about it. I think the time will come and it may not be that far away. We're the norm's shift exactly the other way around and be considered risky to have a human at the wheel and the safety. That thing that the insurance company will want is to have a machine there. You know, I think this is a temporary phase with Newt technology. We become frightened of them. When microwave ovens first came out, they were weird and wonderful. Not most of us think of them is really kind of boring and routine. Same thing is gonna happen with self driving to accidents. Well, that's the story is, that is, But none of them were. Of course, according to the story >> driving, what's clear is that they're safer than the human driver. As of today, they are only going to get safer. We're not evolving that quick, >> but you got the question. Is that self driving, car driven story? Dr. We laughed because we're live in Boston. But your answer was, Will drive started driving, driving, >> you know, eventually, you know, I think it's fair to say that there's a big difference. You know, the first nineteen, ninety five, ninety nine percent of driving is something that's a lot easier. That last one percent or one hundredth of one percent becomes much, much harder. And right now we've had There's a card just last week that drove across the United States, but there were half a dozen times when he had to have a human interviews and particularly unusual situations. And I think because of our norms and expectations, that won't be enough for a self driving car to be safer than humans will need it to be te next paper or something like maybe >> like the just example may be the ultimate combination is a combination of human and self driving car, >> Maybe situation after situation. I think that's going to be the case and I'LL go back to medical diagnosis. I would at least for the short to medium term, I would like to have a pair of human eyes over the treatment plan that the that being completely digital diagnostician spits out. Maybe over time it will be clear that there are no flaws in that. We could go totally digital, but we can combine the two. >> I think in most cases what anything is right, what you brought up. But you know the case of self driving cars in particular, and other situations where humans have to take over for a machine that's failing for someway like aircraft. When the autopilot is doing things right, it turns out that that transition could be very, very rocky and expecting a human to be on call to be able to quickly grasp what's going on in the middle of a crisis of a freak out that's not reasonable isn't necessarily the best time to be swishing over. So there's a there's a fuel. Human factors issued their of how you design it, not just to the human could take over, but you could make a kind of a seamless transition. And that's not easy. >> Okay, so maybe self driving cars, that doesn't happen. But back to the medical example. Maybe Watson will replace Dr Welby, but have not Dr Oz >> interaction or any nurse or somebody who actually gets me to comply again. But also, I do think that Dr Watson can and should take over for people in the developing world who only have access instead of First World medical care. They've got a smartphone. OK, we're going to be able to deliver absolute top shelf world class medical diagnostics to those people fairly quickly. Of course, we should >> do that and then combine it with a coach who gets people to take the prescription when they're supposed to do it, change their eating habits or communities or whatever else you hear your peers are all losing weight. >> Why aren't you? >> I wantto askyou something coming on. Time here has been gracious with your time and your talk. We're very out spoken about. A couple of things I would summarize. It is you lot must Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking. You're paranoid tens. There's no privacy in the Internet, so get over. >> I didn't say there's no privacy. I know working. I think it's important to be clear on this. I think privacy is really important. I do think it's right that we have, and we should have. What I don't want to do is have a bureaucrat defined my privacy rights for me and start telling >> companies what they can and can't do is a result. What >> I'd much prefer instead is to say, Look, if there are things that we know >> Cos we're doing that we do not approve >> of let's deal with that situation as opposed to trying to put the guard rails in place and fence off the different kinds of innovative, strict growth, right? >> I mean, there's two kinds of mistakes you could make. One is, you can let companies do things and you should have regulated them. The other is. You could regulate them preemptively when you really should have let them do things and both kinds of errors or possible. Our sense of looking at what's happening in Jinan is that we've thrived where we allow more permission, listen innovation. We allowed companies to do things and then go back and fix things rather than when we try and locked down the past in the existing processes, so are leaning. In most cases, not every case is to be a little more free, a little more open recognized that there will be mistakes. It's not gonna be that we're perfectly guaranteed is that there is a risk when you walk across the street but go back and fix things at that point rather than preemptively define exactly how things are gonna play. Let >> me give you an example. If Google were to say to me, Hey, Andy, unless you pay us x dollars per month, we're gonna show the world your last fifty Google searches. I would completely pay for that kind of blackmail, right? Certain your search history is incredibly personal reveals a lot about you. Google is not going to do that. It would just it would crater their own business. So trying to trying to fence that kind of stuff often advance makes a lot of sense to me. Then then then relying on this. This sounds a little bit weird, but a combination of for profit companies and people with three choice that that's a really good guarantor of our freedoms and our rights. So you >> guys have a pretty good thing going. It doesn't look like strangle each other anytime soon. But >> how do you How do you decide who >> does one treat by how you operate with reading the book? It's like, Okay, like I think that was Andy because he's talking about Erica. I think that was Erica's. He's talking, >> but I couldn't tell you. I think it's hard for you to reverse engineer because it gets so co mingled over time. And, you know, I gave the example the end of the talk about humans and machines working together synergistically. I think the same thing is true with Indian me out. You may disagree, but I find that we are smarter when we work together so much smarter. Then when we work individually, we go and bring some things on the blackboard. And I had these aha moments that I don't think I would've had just sitting by myself and do I should be that ah ha moment to Andy. To me, it's actually to this Borg of us working together >> and fundamentally, these air bumper sticker things to say. If after working with someone, you become convinced that they respect you and that you could trust them and like Erik says that you're better off together, that you would be individually, it's a complete no brainer to >> keep doing the work together. Well, we're really humbled to be here. You guys are great contact. Everything is free and available. We really believe in that sort of economics. And so thank you very much for having us here. >> Well, it's just a real pleasure. >> All right, Right there, buddy. We'LL be back to wrap up right after this is Q relied from London. My tea.