(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Hallowell to California, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi and welcome to theCUBE. I'm your host Sonia Tagare and we're here at the Palo Alto Cube studios for an amazing conversation about women in tech and bringing men to the conversation. With us today is our guest, Eva Helen, who is the CEO and founder of EQ Inspiration and the Board Director of PrinterLogic. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> So let's get started, so give us a brief overview of your background. >> So, I was actually in tech for close to two decades. I came from Sweden in the mid-90's and joined a hardware company here in Silicon Valley and started selling hardware. One thing led to the next and then I was part of starting two software companies, both with good exits. The last one we exited in 2015 when it was acquired by Citrix. And the name of that company was Sanbolic. So I was deep in the trenches of tech for many, many years. >> That's very inspiring. And from tech, you went to being an advocate for women in tech, so tell us a little about that. >> Well, it was interesting, I mean, I was a woman the whole time myself but I didn't take the time to reflect over a lot of what the other women were experiencing. When you run a business, your head is down and you work really, really hard all the time so, I didn't come up for air very often. But as we had been transitioned, we were on the East Coast and we were transitioned back to Silicon Valley, I started to really network as much as I could and met a lot of women, enjoyed a lot of organizations and went to tons of events. And I thought they were fantastic, and it was great energy and women sharing things and stories with each other and supporting each other, but I couldn't figure out where the guys were. And I'd been working in this industry for so long, I knew that all the decisions were made by men and I didn't understand why they weren't part of the discussion. So I went to a couple of guys and I said, well, if I start something called Women in Tech events for guys, will you come? And they're like, absolutely, we would love that. So, said and done, a couple of years ago, I did my first EQ Inspiration. Which is an event where 50% of the audience is men, 50% are women and in a typical format, I will have experts, or in the beginning, I wasn't en expert myself at all. So I would have experts come in and speak and then eventually I could take over some of those pieces, talking about equality, good things to do for women and so on. And then, I would always have a panel of men that I would ask, what are you actively and actually doing for women in the workplace? Your peers or your colleagues, your staff, how are you helping them? And all these amazing stories were coming out. So I thought how can I get more of those stories and make them available to a broader audience? So that's kind of where I was in the beginning of last winter. >> And what spurred you to become a part of this movement? Was it an experience you had in your workplace or just something you saw in the larger women in tech community? >> Well, I think I'd had my own experiences, obviously, since I'd been in the industry for so long. And every woman has a way to tackle being the only women in the room, the only one in the meeting, the only one at dinner and so on. We all have ways to tackle and deal with that but, like I said, I hadn't really reflected much over what other women were experiencing. So, just by hearing what all these other women were dealing with, I thought I kind of need to help here. Because, I'm not saying that my ways of dealing with it were the best or the way that I would recommend for others to be. I can be super pushy, very assertive and a lot of women are not like that. So, my model didn't necessarily work for them. So I had to try to figure out how can I actually help them. And because there are so many ways that women are supporting each other already, that are functioning really, really well, forums for talking about delicate things and, you know, more open things, I wanted to bring the men into the conversation because they're ultimately 50% of the population and a lot more than that in the workplace. So I just we needed to engage them to make them feel more safe in how they are supporting us. >> And do you find that the men who do come to these events, are they more at the leadership level or are they varied? Who generally shows up? >> So it varies a lot but if I could take a step back just to what I did when I said, okay let me find out more of these stories. Because that will answer your question. I did 60-hour long interviews with men in tech. At all levels of the organization. From CEO to individual contributors. And then I took all of that scripted material and I broke these people down into seven characters of men. And I say generously because we, as women, have been categorized into two categories by most men, for thousands of years. Seven characters, with different names. And at the top of what I call my matrix, we have Mark, James, Sameer, that are advocates for women. Then we have Memo, Al and Chris, that are allies of women. And at the bottom of the matrix, we have Richard, who is opposed to change and concerned that women will take over men's positions in the workplace. But by doing that categorization, I can see that it doesn't matter if it's a leader or if it's an individual contributor, it's a range of men that come to my events but typically, they're sitting at the higher end of the matrix. Not the lower part. Because they're still a little hesitant to thinking, well, what can I do? How can I help? >> Right, so it doesn't matter exactly what their exact position is, but how far up the matrix they are or how far low the matrix they are. >> Yes, exactly. Exactly. >> So can you tell us a little bit more about the different categories in the matrix and why you found those seven categories? >> Yeah sure. So, if we start from the top, the top character is called Mark and Mark is, he's really an expert. He has been working in HR or he's a diversity consultant or he can be a man who has lots of friends and he's very comfortable speaking up on behalf of women in front of these men. But he doesn't just address women or mixed groups, he actually talks directly to groups of men. The next category is James. James is a change agent. He's a leader. He has a very visible presence in the organization and he will take on things like culture change. If he notices in his organization that the culture is not exactly what it should be to promote equality, he will actually get to the bottom of it and dig deep to figure things out and solve them. Maybe by hiring an external consultant like a Mark. The next level is Sameer, he's the sponsor. And there are lots of women out there that have had great sponsors and often at the EQ Inspiration event, I'll bring up a women who talks about a sponsorship story. The sponsors make women visible and they also put their own name on the line. They're very comfortable promoting women. And often, they have experienced being an outsider themselves at some point, so they're very empathetic. The next level, now we get into the allies, and the allies are Memo, Al and Chris. Memo is the mentor. Mentorship is a very interesting thing because it's a big step up from the level below. It really is not necessarily promoting, but really asking a woman what can I do to help? How can I help you? And there's a lot of informal mentorships that are going on and there are lots of formal mentorship programs out there. It's really important to formalize mentorship programs in organizations where there's a greater fear among men to do something that's not right. And I think that a lot of the informal mentorships are suffering because of the Me Too movement and all the negative press that we have out there. The next to allies are Al and Chris. And these two categories have the greatest potential to actually grow into something bigger, because the objective, of course, is to climb from one step to the next on the matrix. And Al is a happy-go-lucky guy. He says I love working with women, I think it's fantastic, just tell me what to do, I would love to help. But he's not necessarily sure what to do. And Chris, the guy below him, he gets uncomfortable more easily. So, if a situation gets a little sticky in the office, when they start talking about equality or something like that, he might actually withdraw and close his door and say, no I don't want to be part of this discussion. But if you talk to Chris, he's already helping somebody who's close to him. Maybe his sister, maybe his partner, his wife or his daughter. And it's really interesting when you get to the point where they understand and they realize, they go oh, I am actually doing something. Maybe it's not helping somebody in the workplace but maybe it's somebody who's close to me. And then Richard at the bottom of the matrix, he's the chauvinist and he's there and there's lots of them and they're opposed to the change. And in the beginning, I was thinking maybe I just leave him out of the discussion. But he's a really important reference point for the rest of the characters. >> And so, as I liked that how you said that we want to have men go up the levels, to essentially become a Mark or James or Sameer, but suppose you have a Richard in your workplace, is there any hope for him ever becoming a Mark or is it even likely? >> Well, so the important thing is here, you know, I'm not a big fan of the kinds of workshops where you throw all men into the same room and you give them the same message. Because you'll lose 70% of the audience right away. So the key thing here is to make them understand that you can climb one step on the ladder and that may be enough. And if you choose to stay where you are, but as long as you're getting a little bit more awareness of what you're doing, that's okay too. But we're not trying to get Al or Chris, the people who are towards the bottom, to become Marks. We just want them to climb one step. And Richard, he's absolutely not a hopeless case. The thing with him is you can't tell him what to do, but you need to find his motivator. What is it that motivates him to start thinking outside of the little comfort zone that he is in right now? And so, maybe that motivator is maybe he does have a sister who's experienced a difficult situation. And so, how does that relate to what's going on? Maybe his team is not coming up with any new ideas. So having the discussion of diversifying the team, he might be ready for that one. But just finding his motivator is how we get him to, at least, get up to the level of Chris. >> And you mentioned that by the year 2030, you want 50-50 gender equality. Now, for people who are at leadership positions, who are Richards, who maybe do have some hope that they might change into even a Chris, but they still aren't on board with 50-50 gender equality, what do you say to those men and how can women deal with those men in their workplace? >> Well, it's that, you know, is the pie this big or is there two pies or is the pie growing? 50-50 is sort of something that a lot of people that ae working towards equality are saying. Now, I'm really trying to support women in the workplace to get to higher levels. And we are, more than 50%, at the very bottom level of most industries and most working positions. And we know that, I think it's 53% of all graduates today are women. So, it's not so much a we need to be 50-50, it's just that we need to change the parameters a little bit and change the format and change the expectations of how we lead our organizations so that it's not always done in a man's way. But rather, something that's more accepting towards not just women, but all minorities that haven't had a place there before. And would you say to somebody who's a Richard? Well if he's open to having the discussion and conversation, try to meet him where he is and say, we're not taking your job away from you, but we will give a woman the opportunity to apply for the job at the next level, alongside with you. And it's the most qualified that will win. But the way that the criteria are set right now and the qualifications and expectations are set right now, are really created very much so for men. So they end up winning that battle every single time. And Chris can't or Richard can't change that. That needs to be changed from a higher level. >> And also, alongside with them worrying that we're going to take their jobs, also because of the Me Too movement, they might be worried, oh I don't even want to work with women because I'm worried they're going to say I harass them or do something to them so I'd rather just not even bother with it. So with those kind of people, how would you try to convince them that they're safe with women or that that it's okay for them to be a part of this discussion? >> So, Chris, who is just above Richard on the matrix, he supports women who are very close to him. So, like I said, family members or maybe it's somebody, a woman on his team, that he's worked with for a long time. And by making him aware that he's already supporting people that are very close to him and he's super comfortable in those relationships and that kind of support that he's providing, I'm saying, what if you were to take that support to somebody you don't know as well? Maybe there's a woman in the extended team or next to you and you say to her, what can I do to help you? Is there anything I can do to help? And then treat that relationship the same way that you're treating the relationship that you have with that family member or whatnot. You know, make sure that it's completely transparent. Let the door be open. Make sure that you're inviting other people to the meetings. Sit in an open area. Do things that are completely transparent. That way nobody will ever question what your motives are, why you're doing this or if you're suggesting or saying something that's inappropriate. >> Right, right. And do you feel that more men are coming to these events or do you think that there's still a lot of progress to be made? >> So, when I started this a couple years ago, I said, okay, within a year, most of the women's organizations here in the Bay Area will have a track for men. And it's starting to happen so I'm so excited about that. I'm really, really happy that EQ Inspiration is not the only place to go, but that there's other organizations that are doing the same thing. And I will continue to, beyond the EQ Inspiration format, my objective is to go and speak at as many tech events as possible. Where I know that the majority of the audience will continue to be mostly men, for, at least, the near future. Hopefully that will change quickly. But now that I have material and I have a method and I know that there is a way to move men and make them individual contributors and make them excited about this. I want to bring that message directly to the core audience while all of the women's organizations that are sitting here in Silicon Valley will continue to build their tracks for men. >> That's amazing and you also mentioned that your material's coming out in Spring, so what's next for you? >> Well, I mean, so writing a book is a difficult thing and for all the men who are listening to this, it will be a very accessible, easy book. Not a lot of words, some pictures, images. Hopefully it's going to be, you know, a nice feel to it so people will be happy to have it lying around. And, really, for me, it's trying to create a language that both men and women are comfortable with. Having names on these characters. Jokingly being able to talk about it. De-dramatizing the whole conversation around this. There is a big seriousness to it, don't get me wrong. But for what I'm trying to do, I really want to lighten it up a little bit and make sure that people don't feel intimidated, threatened, judged or anything like that by it. And so, once the book becomes available in the Spring, I'm hoping that tech organizations will pick it up and use it as conversational material. Both for women's work groups, for mixed groups. One woman called me and said, I found a great use case. She specializes in going into organizations that already have programs and processes set up to move the needle, but not enough is happening. And then she can use this material to actually plug in and engage the men more deeply. So, I think, the book will have its life and with the book, I will make sure that it gets in front of as many people in tech as possible, both men and women. And then I'm hoping to be able to speak about it in as many difficult places as possible, because that's how I grow. >> Well, that's very heroic. It's such a great support for the women in tech community to have someone who's willing to kind of go out of their comfort zone and talk to men about women in tech issues and that's really not happening. So, we really appreciate all the work you're doing and thank you so much for coming in today. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> She's Eva, I'm Sonia, thanks so much for watching theCUBE, til next time. (upbeat music)

>>Hey, everyone, welcome back to the programme. Lisa Martin here. I've got two guests joining me. Please welcome back to the Q. Paula Hanson, the chief Revenue officer and president at all tricks. And Jackie Vanderlei Grayling joins us as well. The global head of tax technology at eBay. They're gonna share with you how an all tricks is helping eBay innovate with analytics. Ladies, welcome. It's great to have you both on the programme. >>Thank you, Lisa. Not great to be >>here. >>Yeah, Paula, we're gonna start with you in this programme. We've heard from Jason Klein. We've heard from Allan Jacobsen. They talked about the need to democratise analytics across any organisation to really drive innovation with analytics as they talked about at the forefront of software investments. House all tricks, helping its customers to develop roadmaps for success with analytics. >>Well, thank you, Lisa. Absolutely is about our customers success. And we partner really closely with our customers to develop a holistic approach to their analytics success. And it starts, of course, with our innovative technology and platform. But ultimately we help our customers to create a culture of data literacy and analytics from the top of the organisation starting with the C suite and we partner with our customers to build their road maps for scaling that culture of analytics through things like enablement programmes, skills assessments, hackathons, uh, setting up centres of excellence to help their organisation scale and drive governance of this, uh, analytics capability across the Enterprise. So at the end of the day, it's really about helping our customers to move up their analytics maturity curve with proven technologies and best practises so they can make better business decisions and compete in their respective industries. >>Excellent. Sounds like a very strategic programme. We're gonna unpack that, Jackie, let's bring you into the conversation. Speaking of analytics maturity, one of the things that we talked about in this event is the I. D. C report that showed that 93% of organisations are not utilising the analytic skills of their employees. But then there's eBay. How Jackie did eBay become one of the 7% of organisations who's really maturing and how are you using analytics across the organisation at bay? >>So I think the main thing for us is when we started out was is that you know our especially in finance. They became spreadsheet professionals instead of the things that we really want our influence to add value to. And we realised we have to address that. And we also knew we couldn't wait for all our data to be centralised until we actually start using the data or start automating and be more effective. Um, so ultimately, we really started very, very actively embedding analytics in our people and our data and our processes. >>Starting with people is really critical jacket continuing with you. What was in the roadblocks to analytics adoption that you faced and how did you overcome them? >>So I think you know, Eva is a very data driven company. We have a lot of data. I think we are 27 years around this year. So we have the data, but it is everywhere. And how do you use that data? How do you use it efficiently? How do you get to the data? And I believe that that is definitely one of our biggest roadblocks when we started out and just finding those data sources and finding ways to connect to them, um, to move forward. The other thing is that you know, people were experiencing a lot of frustration. I mentioned before about the spreadsheet professionals, right? And there was no we're not independent. You couldn't move forward. You're dependent on somebody else's roadmap to get to data to get the information you want it. So really finding something that everybody could access analytics or access data. And finally we have to realise, is that this is uncharted territory. This is not exactly something that everybody is used to working with every day. So how do you find something that is easy and that is not so daunting on somebody who's brand new to the field? And I would I would call those out as your as your major roadblocks, because you always have always. But most of the times you have support from the top. In our case we have. But in the end of the day, it's it's our people that need to actually really embrace it and making that accessible for them. I would say it's not to say a road block a block you want to be able to do. >>It's really all about putting people first question for both of you and Paula will start with you and then Jackie will go to you. I think the message in this programme that the audience is watching with us is very clear. Analytics is for everyone should be for everyone. Let's talk now about how both of your organisations are empowering people, those in the organisation that may not have technical expertise to be able to leverage data so that they can actually be data driven colour. >>Yes, well, we leverage our platform across all of our business functions here at all tricks. And just like Jackie explained that eBay finance is probably one of the best examples of how we leverage our own platform to improve our business performance. So just like Jackie mentioned, we have this huge amount of data, uh, flowing through our enterprise, and the opportunity to leverage that into insights and analytics is really endless. So our CFO, Kevin Ruben has been a key sponsor for using our own technology. We use all tricks for forecasting all of our key performance metrics for business planning across our audit function, uh, to help with compliance and regulatory requirements, tax and even to close our books at the end of each quarter. So it's really remain across our business. And at the end of the day, it comes to How do you train users? How do you engage users to lean into this analytic opportunity to discover use cases? And so one of the other things that we've seen many companies do is to gamify that process, to build a game that brings users into the experience for training and to work with each other to problem solve and, along the way, maybe earn badges, depending on the capabilities and trainings that they take and just have a little healthy competition, Uh, as an employee based around who can become more sophisticated in their analytic capability. So I think there's a lot of different ways to do it. And as Jackie mentioned, it's really about ensuring that people feel comfortable that they feel supportive, that they have access to the training that they need, and ultimately that they are given both the skills and the confidence to be able to be a part of this great opportunity of analytics. >>That confidence is key. Jackie talk about some of the ways that you're empowering folks without that technical expertise to really be data driven. >>I think it means to what Paula has said in terms of, you know, getting people excited about it. But it's also understanding that this is a journey and everybody is the different place in their journey. You have folks that's already really advanced. Who's done this every day. And then you have really some folks that this is brand new and, um, or maybe somewhere in between. And it's about how you could get everybody in their different phases to get to the the initial destination. And I say initial because I believe the journey is never really complete. Um, what we have done is that we decided to invest in a group of concept when we got our CFO to sponsor a hackathon. Um, we open it up to everybody in finance, um, in the middle of the pandemic. So everybody was on Zoom, um, and we had and we told people, Listen, we're gonna teach you this tool. It's super easy, and let's just see what you can do. We ended up having 70 injuries. We had only three weeks. So these are people that that do not have a background. They are not engineers and not data scientists and we ended up with 25,000 our savings at the end of the hackathon. Um, from the 70 countries with people that I've never, ever done anything like this before. And there you have the results. And they just went from there because people had a proof of concept. They knew that it worked and they overcame the initial barrier of change. Um, and that's what we are seeing things really, really picking up now >>that's fantastic. And the business outcome that you mentioned that the business impact is massive, helping folks get that confidence to be able to overcome. Sometimes the cultural barriers is key there. I think another thing that this programme has really highlighted is there is a clear demand for data literacy in the job market, regardless of organisation. Can each of you share more about how your empowering the next generation of data workers Paula will start with you? >>Absolutely. And Jackie says it so well, which is that it really is a journey that organisations are on and we, as people in society, are on in terms of up skilling our capabilities. Uh, so one of the things that we're doing here at all tricks to help address the skill set gap on a global level is through a programme that we call Sparked, which is essentially a no cost analyst education programme that we take to universities and colleges globally to help build the next generation of data workers. When we talk to our customers like eBay and many others, they say that it's difficult to find the skills that they want when they're hiring people into the job market. And so this programme is really developed just to do just that, to close that gap and to work hand in hand with students and educators to improve data literacy for the next generation. So we're just getting started with sparked we started last May, but we currently have over 850 educational institutions globally engaged across 47 countries, and we're going to continue to invest here because there's so much opportunity for people, for society and for enterprises when we close gap and empower more people with the necessary analytic skills to solve all the problems that data can help solve. >>So >>I just made a really big impact in such a short time period is gonna be fun to watch the progress of that. Jackie, let's go over to you now Talk about some of the things that eBay is doing to empower the next generation of data workers. >>So we definitely wanted to make sure that we kept implemented from the hackathon that we don't lose that excitement life. So we just launched a programme for evil masterminds and what it basically is. It's an inclusive innovation initiative where we firmly believe that innovation is all upscaling for all analytics role. So it doesn't matter. Your background doesn't matter which function you are in. Come and participate in this where we really focus on innovation, introducing these technologies and upscaling of people. Um, we are apart from that. We also said, Well, we should just keep it to inside the way we have to share this innovation with the community. So we are actually working on developing an analytics high school programme which we hope to pilot by the end of this year. We will actually have high schoolers come in and teach them data essentials, the soft skills around analytics, But also, um, how to use all tricks and we're working with Actually, we're working with spark and they're helping us develop that programme. And we really hope that it is said by the end of the year, have a pilot and then also makes you must have been rolled out in multiple locations in multiple countries and really, really, uh, focused on that whole concept of analytic school >>analytics. Girl sounds like ultra and everybody have a great synergistic relationship there that is jointly aimed at especially kind of going down the stock and getting people when they're younger, interested and understanding how they can be empowered with data across any industry. Paula, let's go back to you. You were recently on the cubes Super Cloud event just a couple of weeks ago and you talked about the challenges the companies are facing as they are navigating what is by default, a multi cloud world. How does the all tricks analytics cloud platform enable CEO s to democratise analytics across their organisation? >>Yes, business leaders and CEO s across all industries are realising that there just aren't enough data scientists in the world to be able to make sense of the massive amounts of data that are flowing through organisations. Last I checked, there was two million data scientists in the world. So that's, uh, woefully underrepresented in terms of the opportunity for people to be a part of the analytics solution. So what we're seeing now with CEO s with business leaders is that they are integrating data analysis and the skill set of data analysis into virtually every job function. Uh, and that is what we think of when we think of analytics for all. And so our mission with all tricks analytics cloud is to empower all of those people in every job function, regardless of their skill set, as Jackie pointed out, from people that would are just getting started all the way to the most sophisticated of technical users. Um, every worker across that spectrum can have a meaningful role in the opportunity to unlock the potential of the data for their company and their organisations. So that's our goal with all tricks, analytics cloud and it operates in a multi cloud world and really helps across all sizes of data sets to blend, cleanse, shape, analyse and report out so that we can break down data silos across the Enterprise and Dr Real Business Outcomes. As a result, of unlocking the potential of data >>as well as really listening that skills gap. As you were saying, There's only two million data scientists. You don't need to be a data scientist. That's the beauty of what all tricks is enabling. And eBay is a great example of that. Jackie, let's go ahead and wrap things with you. You talked a great deal about the analytics maturity that you have fostered at eBay. It obviously has the right culture to adapt to that. Can you talk a little bit and take us out here in terms of where all tricks fits in as that analytics maturity journey continues. And what are some of the things that you're most excited about as analytics truly gets democratised across eBay >>when we start about getting excited about things when it comes to analytics, I can go on all day, but I'll keep it short and sweet for you. Um, I do think we're on the topic full of data scientists, and I really feel that that is your next step for us, anyway. Is that how do we get folks to not see data scientist as this big thing like a rocket scientist it's something completely different and it's something that is in everybody in a certain extent. So, um, game partnering with all tricks to just release uh, ai ml um, solution allowing. You know, folks do not have a data scientist programme but actually build models and be able to solve problems that way. So we have engaged with all turrets and we purchase the licence is quite a few. And right now, through our masterminds programme, we're actually running a four months programme. Um, for all skill levels, um, teaching them ai ml and machine learning and how they can build their own models. Um, we are really excited about that. We have over 50 participants without the background from all over the organisation. We have members from our customer services. We have even some of our engineers are actually participating in the programme will just kick it off. And I really believe that that is our next step. Um, I want to give you a quick example of the beauty of this is where we actually, um, just allow people to go out and think about ideas and come up with things and one of the people in our team who doesn't have a data scientist background at all, was able to develop a solution. Where, um, you know there is a checkout feedback checkout functionality on the eBay side, There's sellers or buyers can pervade them at information. And she built a model to be able to determine what relates to tax specific what is the type of problem and even predict how that problem can be solved before we as human, even stepped in. And now, instead of us or somebody going to debate and try to figure out what's going on there, we can focus on fixing their versus, um, actually just reading through things and not adding any value and its a beautiful tool. And I'm very impressed when we saw the demo and they've been developing that further. >>That sounds fantastic. And I think just the one word that keeps coming to mind. And we've said this a number of times in the programme. Today's empowerment, what you're actually really doing to truly empower people across the organisation with with varying degrees of skill level, going down to the high school level really exciting. We'll have so stay tuned to see what some of the great things are that come from this continued partnership? Ladies, I wanna thank you so much for joining me on the programme today and talking about how all tricks and eBay are really partnering together to democratise analytics and to facilitate its maturity. It's been great talking to you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you so much.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE coverage of women in tech. International Women's Day 2022. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Karla Wong joins me next. Country Sales Leader for the Commercial Sector in Peru at AWS. Karla, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much Lisa and thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you today. >> I'm looking forward to chatting with you. You've been in the tech industry for more than 20 years, you've been a leader in tech and sales and customer service, partners, organizations. Talk to me a little bit about your background. >> I am a system engineer. I have some studies from enterprise direction with a university in Savannah, Columbia and I have a digital transformation certified with MIT in Boston. >> Fantastic, were you always interested in technology or STEM or was it something that you pivoted into somewhere during your career? >> Yes, you know what? Since I was little, I was just fascinated with the technology and all the time I was just trying to figure out how to do things and how to build that things and I remember once I was just, of course many time long ago, I was with this BHS, right? An equipment and I tried to do and tried to understand how this works and just figure out I was with many parts of that equipment and then I didn't realize how to join that parts but it was really funny because all the time I was trying to understand what is behind that kind of equipment, how this works and all the time I was asking and my dad said, I was just feeling so curiosity about that and asking many questions and I have uncles that they are engineers. So I was just all the time asking about that and they said, you know what? You are good in math, maybe you can just decide for an engineering career. They were encouraged me for doing that. So I guess that was my first clue that I'm interested in technology. >> Well, you sounds like you have a natural curiosity that you had great role models in your parents and probably others along your educational route and your career route that kind of encouraged that curiosity and being curious is one of the things that's important to being at AWS. Am I right? >> Yes, it's really important because we promote, you know, our, one of the main leadership principles that you read is learn to be curious and they promote that one, right? They're encouraging you to innovate, to learn more, to try to understand more about our solutions, our customers, how to make the things better and you have the space to propose new things, to do the things better. So they encourage you and they empower you to do that and you feel like your curiosity that you have very natural here's improved and they just promote that you continue to do that. >> That curiosity is so important. I mean, when we think about women in technology and we think about bringing in more thought diversity and DEI, it's important to be curious, to be able to bring different thoughts in so that the organization can be more well rounded, it can learn, you also not only do you lead the sales organization, but you are someone that's very active in volunteering. Tell me a little bit about that and how do you balance leading a sales organization and volunteering at the same time? >> You know, when you talk about this is more like work life balance, right? And when we talk about that you can feel like you need it, right? You need to work on that. It's more like an attitude of it's extremely important to think about mental health for everyone because that of course have impact in your physical health and when you talk about this, it not only matters in terms of attitude, it's action and disciplines as well and you have to keep in mind that. The first thing I believe and all the time I do it give the right value for this balance because it's something that a lot of people want more than anything and I have more than some professional decision thinking about this precisely and I have to thinking of me as a person, my family, how to help the community and you cannot imagine the impact when you decide to go for a volunteering activities how can benefit you and not in only the personal way, in your professional way. Even though you didn't start a volunteering, trying to figure out how this help you in your professional life, you receive a lot of benefits from the volunteering activities and it's amazing how that one's impacting your professional life also. When you are a volunteer, you'll receive new and meaningful experiences. Volunteering can be an excellent getaway to find unique and valuable experiences that you are very difficult to find in a day to day basis, right? And you develop your real life skills, openness to criticism, responsibility, humility, commitment, service, attitude, many things that you can proactively include in your job with your team and you can join with them in teamwork and try to figure out how to engage with them in your activities. This is another way to motivate your team, to build your team, right? Talking with this very valuable experiences and also I find out that that improves your health and mood. >> Sounds very-- >> We talk having-- >> Sorry. >> I'm sorry, no don't worry. >> That's very complimentary, that the volunteer work with leading the sales organization that there's so much value that you're bringing into your sales leadership role from the volunteering that you do. I'm just curious, can you describe some of the volunteer organizations that you work with? I think it's pretty impressive. >> Yes, I started my volunteering 14 years ago I guess but I was in the volunteering activities from the school and my dad was a really strong influence for that because I joined, I remember joining with him and go to do some volunteering activities that he led and I start 14 years I went with Operation and Smile group and then in the last two or three years I start with Project of Love. We are focused on kids with cancer and try to help them to build the last wishes they have because they pass away and at the end of this, this two years ago, I start with local activity that we do for patients with rare diseases and we just try to join two great passion that I have. One is the dance that we have here. The name of our national dance is Marinera Norteña and we are just doing this with a group that they are passion at the same time with this volunteering activities and the dance and we just trying to be the ambassador for and the voice for these patients, try to share with the community, the hard health journey that they have trying to obtain a fair treatment, a fair diagnostic, because they are rare disease and here is very difficult that they investigate about that. So that's why we are just doing this using dance as a way to broadcast our voice and just share happiness and hope and health. >> Happiness and hope. Those are two great things. So as the female leader in the tech industry, what are some of the main challenges that you have found regarding cultural aspects, regarding geographical aspects and LATAM? Talk to me about some of those challenges. >> Let me share with you my personal journey. My challenges started with the moment I decided to start engineering. A career that is traditional considered for men only, although this changes over the time, you will realize that the stereotype remains in many people minds right? It happens not only in Peru I can see it in Latin America. Someone once asked me if I wouldn't like to study something easier for a woman, right? And I just, when I received that question, that helping me to reaffirm that it was taking the right decision and I have the fortune to work with companies that believe in female leadership and the importance of our contribution and empower me to do things differently. Although I must confess that this was not always like this. I experienced the situation when I have to show that I'm so much and more capable and prepared than a man to take a major challenge. So despite the fact in the recent years you have had the great advances in integration of women in the field of science and technology, the gap in equality in equality in this sector still continues and many times the attitude towards women is discriminatory considering that we don't have enough knowledge and we don't have enough strength to overcome challenge without the ability to give the extra mile that is often required, or simply because of a gender issue. And generally speaking, opportunities that they're not equal. Neither in salaries. Several studies have revealed that in the same position since at position level within company, men's salary or benefits are higher than the woman. In addition, sometimes the position for a woman is not necessarily for merit it's just to feel fulfill a gender quota and when it's fulfilled, there's no more opportunities. So it's still a long way to go. We are working in that, we are trying to inspire more women to be part of this world. This is an amazing world and this world needs our leadership, judgment, ambition, as a woman. So that's why we try to inspire and try to be a role model for some young ladies that they are thinking about this career in technology. >> Right, you bring up a great point though about one of the things in terms of hiring for quotas. And as we think about this International Women's Day, this year's theme is Breaking the Bias. Where do you think we are with that? >> I think we have a lot long, long way to go to. Today we don't see that we have more women in some leadership roles in technology. We see more young ladies studying engineering but you know what, when you talk about stereotypes we need to understand, or the bias, the bias is not only what the society it's giving you, it's also your own bias because we need to understand that technology careers is not only for men it's also for a woman. And we need to understand and change the perspective that we see the challenges that we have in our life because sometimes that could be a really stopper in your professional life. And for me, we don't, we really need to understand that it's important. We cannot stop believing in ourself and we can achieve whatever we want. So we never stop pursuing our goals and achieve what you really need to achieve and as I said all the time, get inspired by women with great achievements who have changed this world technology. We have many examples of that for many years. We have Eva Maria Kiesler, the core inventor of Wi-Fi, Radia Joy Perlman, known as the the mother of the internet and Ada Lovelace who became the first female computer programmer. So we have many examples in this story to understand that the limit is on you. So the bias we need to break the first one is the bias that you have of yourself. >> That's a good point. That's a really good point there. I'm curious, what would your recommendation be? You obviously had, you had that natural curiosity that we talked about. You also seems like you had great parents who were very encouraging of all of the different things that you were interested in. What do you recommend for women maybe starting out in the STEM area or in tech in particular? How do they get that courage to just try? >> You know what, the main thing I guess as I mentioned before, is to put aside the stereotypes, right? And get out of your head, the standing out career like science, technology and engineering is only for a man. All the time I have this list for me, that is lesson learned. And my lesson learned is please don't think that you cannot do it. Try it. If you go and the things do not work well, try it again and try it again. So don't feel stopped because you face your first challenge and the challenge it's very difficult, because we have the courage to do that and you know what? It is very and interesting to understand that women has resilience, we have the courage to do anything, we are multi tasking all the time they say women can do many things at the same time and we have this particular way to communicate. We are very inclusive. We make empathy. We're just leading with a cohesion concept of a team. So we need to explore more about our strengths and try to encourage from them. And one of the main things for me is don't feel afraid and transform, you know, when you feel like that, transfer that as your power, you're encouraged to continue. So we need to transform our fears in our, I always said our gasoline to continue and then your motive to be successful. So transform your fears. >> I love that. >> That's my main focus. >> Transform your fear. That's great advice there is. And I will say no, don't be afraid to raise your hand and ask a question 'cause I guarantee you, many people in the room whether it's a physical room these days or it's a virtual video conferencing room, probably have the same question. Be the one to raise your hand and ask. But I love how you're saying transform that fear 'cause it's there. Don't be afraid to fail but also we need to have those female role models, mentors and sponsors that we can see that can have help us kind of in that transformation process, that mentorship is really critical to help guide that along. >> Yes, yes, yes, that's correct and I will, I am, I was really fortunate because I have real role models in my life not only, as I mentioned my dad and also one of the things that I recognize in this company that I work for that empower leadership from women and I identify some role models I want to follow and I ask her in each particular company to be my coach and to be my mentor, because of course you are starting in the technology side and you need more from others that they can share with you her wisdom, right? And try to give you advice, how to work on that. And I always said, and I will always repeat because I sometimes I have the opportunity to mentor young ladies that they are very curious about the technology side and I share with them my experience, my lesson learned so they can build their own story to do this and I share all the time don't compete in a male environment in a gray suit. You have your own personality, you have your own strengths, you're a woman and you have your strength as a woman. Show that, be, you know, the black point in the middle of the white environment because you're different, your leadership is different. You have to understand that, value that and explore more about that so you can inspire others and you can inspire yourself and it's fair to say, please identify your achievements and value them because you deserve that, you fight for them and you have to be celebrate for that. >> Right. >> So that's the main, you know, the main idea when I share with these ladies but it's right, it's fair to be recognized for that. It's your effort, it's your way to do the things differently and it's very appreciated. >> Very appreciated and very inspiring. Thank you so much Karla for sharing your story, how you are balancing work life volunteerism, how it's complimentary. I found this conversation very inspiring so thank you so much for joining me today. >> Thank you. No, thank you so much Lisa. It was really a pleasure for me to be with you today. >> Excellent, likewise. For Karla Wong, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of women in tech, International Women's Day 2022. 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>>Welcoming into the cubes presentation of AWS startup showcase open cloud innovations. This is season two episode one of the ongoing series covering exciting hot startups from the AWS ecosystem. Today's episode. One of season two theme is open source community and the open cloud innovations. I'm your host, John farrier of the cube. And today we're excited to be joined by Loris Dajani who is the C T O chief technology officer and founder of cystic found that in his backyard with some wine and beer. Great to see you. We're here to talk about Falco finding cloud threats in real time. Thank you for joining us, Laura. Thanks. Good to see you >>Love that your company was founded in your backyard. Classic startup story. You have been growing very, very fast. And the key point of the showcase is to talk about the startups that are making a difference and, and that are winning and doing well. You guys have done extremely well with your business. Congratulations, but thank you. The big theme is security and as organizations have moved their business critical applications to the cloud, the attackers have followed. This is Billy important in the industry. You guys are in the middle of this. What's your view on this? What's your take? What's your reaction? >>Yeah. As we, as a end ecosystem are moving to the cloud as more and more, we are developing cloud native applications. We relying on CACD. We are relying on orchestrations in containers. Security is becoming more and more important. And I would say more and more complex. I mean, we're reading every day in the news about attacks about data leaks and so on. There's rarely a day when there's nothing major happening and that we can see the press from this point of view. And definitely things are evolving. Things are changing in the cloud. In for example, Cisco just released a cloud native security and usage report a few days ago. And the mundane things that we found among our user base, for example, 60, 66% of containers are running as rude. So still many organizations adopting a relatively relaxed way to deploy their applications. Not because they like doing it, but because it tends to be, you know, easier and a little bit with a little bit less ration. >>We also found that that 27% of users unnecessary route access in the 73% of the cloud accounts, public has three buckets. This is all stuff that is all good, but can generate consequences when you make a mistake, like typically, you know, your data leaks, no, because of super sophisticated attacks, but because somebody in your organization forgets maybe some data on it on a public history bucket, or because some credentials that are not restrictive enough, maybe are leaked to another team member or, or, or a Gita, you know, repository or something like that. So is infrastructures and the software becomes a let's a more sophisticated and more automated. There's also at the same time, more risks and opportunities for misconfigurations that then tend to be, you know, very often the sewers of, of issues in the cloud. >>Yeah, those self-inflicted wounds definitely come up. We've seen people leaving S3 buckets open, you know, it's user error, but, you know, w w those are small little things that get taken care of pretty quickly. That's just hygiene. It's just discipline. You know, most of the sophisticated enterprises are moving way past that, but now they're adopting more cloud native, right. And as they get into the critical apps, securing them has been challenging. We've talked to many CEOs and CSOs, and they say that to us. Yeah. It's very challenging, but we're on it. I have to ask you, what should people worry about when secure in the cloud, because they know is challenging, then they'll have the opportunity on the other side, what are they worried about? What do you see people scared of or addressing, or what should I be worried about when securing the cloud? >>Yeah, definitely. Sometimes when I'm talking about the security, I like to compare, you know, the old data center in that the old monolithic applications to a castle, you know, in middle aged castle. So what, what did you do to protect your castle? You used to build very thick walls around it, and then a small entrance and be very careful about the entrance, you know, protect the entrance very well. So what we used to doing that, that data center was protect everything, you know, the, the whole perimeter in a very aggressive way with firewalls and making sure that there was only a very narrow entrance to our data center. And, you know, as much as possible, like active security there, like firewalls or this kind of stuff. Now we're in the cloud. Now, it's everything. Everything is much more diffused, right? Our users, our customers are coming from all over the planet, every country, every geography, every time, but also our internal team is coming from everywhere because they're all accessing a cloud environment. >>You know, they often from home for different offices, again, from every different geography, every different country. So in this configuration, the metaphor data that they like to use is an amusement park, right? You have a big area with many important things inside in the users and operators that are coming from different dangerous is that you cannot really block, you know, you need to let everything come in and in operate together in these kinds of environment, the traditional protection is not really effective. It's overwhelming. And it doesn't really serve the purpose that we need. We cannot build a giant water under our amusement park. We need people to come in. So what we're finding is that understanding, getting visibility and doing, if you Rheodyne is much more important. So it's more like we need to replace the big walls with a granular network of security cameras that allow us to see what's happening in the, in the different areas of our amusement park. And we need to be able to do that in a way that is real time and allows us to react in a smart way as things happen because in the modern world of cloud five minutes of delay in understanding that something is wrong, mean that you're ready being, you know, attacked and your data's already being >>Well. I also love the analogy of the amusement park. And of course, certain rides, you need to be a certain height to ride the rollercoaster that I guess, that's it credentials or security credentials, as we say, but in all seriousness, the perimeter is dead. We all know that also moats were relied upon as well in the old days, you know, you secure the firewall, nothing comes in, goes out, and then once you're in, you don't know what's going on. Now that's flipped. There's no walls, there's no moats everyone's in. And so you're saying this kind of security camera kind of model is key. So again, this topic here is securing real time. Yeah. How do you do that? Because it's happening so fast. It's moving. There's a lot of movement. It's not at rest there's data moving around fast. What's the secret sauce to making real identifying real-time threats in an enterprise. >>Yeah. And in, in our opinion, there are some key ingredients. One is a granularity, right? You cannot really understand the threats in your amusement park. If you're just watching these from, from a satellite picture. So you need to be there. You need to be granular. You need to be located in the, in the areas where stuff happens. This means, for example, in, in security for the clowning in runtime, security is important to whoever your sensors that are distributed, that are able to observe every single end point. Not only that, but you also need to look at the infrastructure, right? From this point of view, cloud providers like Amazon, for example, offer nice facilities. Like for example, there's CloudTrail in AWS that collects in a nice opinionated consistent way, the data that is coming from multiple cloud services. So it's important from one point of view, to go deep into, into the endpoint, into the processes, into what's executing, but also collect his information like the cultural information and being able to correlate it to there's no full security without covering all of the basics. >>So a security is a matter of both granularity and being able to go deep and understanding what every single item does, but also being able to go abroad and collect the right data, the right data sources and correlated. And then the real time is really critical. So decisions need to be taken as the data comes in. So the streaming nature of security engines is becoming more and more important. So the step one of course, security, especially cost security, posture management was very much let's ball. Once in a while, let's, let's involve the API and see what's happening. This is still important. Of course, you know, you need to have the basics covered, but more and more, the paradigm needs to change to, okay, the data is coming in second by second, instead of asking for the data manually, once in a while, second by second, there's the moment it arrives. You need to be able to detect, correlate, take decisions. And so, you know, machine learning is very important. Automation is very important. The rules that are coming from the community on a daily basis are, are very important. >>Let me ask you a question, cause I love this topic because it's a data problem at the same time. There's some network action going on. I love this idea of no perimeter. You're going to be monitoring anything, but there's been trade offs in the past, overhead involved, whether you're monitoring or putting probes in the network or the different, there's all kinds of different approaches. How does the new technology with cloud and machine learning change the dynamics of the kinds of approaches? Because it's kind of not old tech, but you the same similar concepts to network management, other things, what what's going on now that's different and what makes this possible today? >>Yeah, I think from the friction point of view, which is one very important topic here. So this needs to be deployed efficiently and easily in this transparency, transparent as possible, everywhere, everywhere to avoid blind spots and making sure that everything is scheduled in front. His point of view, it's very important to integrate with the orchestration is very important to make use of all of the facilities that Amazon provides in the it's very important to have a system that is deployed automatically and not manually. That is in particular, the only to avoid blind spots because it's manual deployment is employed. Somebody would forget, you know, to deploy where somewhere where it's important. And then from the performance point of view, very much, for example, with Falco, you know, our open source front-end security engine, we really took key design decisions at the beginning to make sure that the engine would be able to support in Paris, millions of events per second, with minimal overhead. >>You know, they're barely measure measurable overhead. When you want to design something like that, you know, that you need to accept some kind of trade-offs. You need to know that you need to maybe limit a little bit this expressiveness, you know, or what can be done, but ease of deployment and performance were more important goals here. And you know, it's not uncommon for us is Dave to have users of Farco or commercial customers that they have tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of machines. You know, I said two machines and sometimes millions of containers. And in these environments, lightweight is key. You want death, but you want overhead to be really meaningful and >>Okay, so a amusement park, a lot of diverse applications. So integration, I get that orchestration brings back the Kubernetes angle a little bit and Falco and per overhead and performance cloud scale. So all these things are working in favor. If I get that right, is that, am I getting that right? You get the cloud scale, you get the integration and open. >>Yeah, exactly. Any like ingredients over SEP, you know, and that, and with these ingredients, it's possible to bake a, a recipe to, to have a plate better, can be more usable, more effective and more efficient. That may be the place that we're doing in the previous direction. >>Oh, so I've got to ask you about Falco because it's come up a lot. We talked about it on our cube conversations already on the internet. Check that out. And a great conversation there. You guys have close to 40 million plus million downloads of, of this. You have also 80 was far gate integration, so six, some significant traction. What does this mean? I mean, what is it telling us? Why is this successful? What are people doing with Falco? I see this as a leading indicator, and I know you guys were sponsoring the project, so congratulations and propelled your business, but there's something going on here. What does this as a leading indicator of? >>Yeah. And for, for the audience, Falco is the runtime security tool of the cloud native generation such. And so when we, the Falco, we were inspired by previous generation, for example, network intrusion detection, system tools, and a post protection tools and so on. But we created essentially a unique tool that would really be designed for the modern paradigm of containers, cloud CIC, and salt and Falco essentially is able to collect a bunch of brainer information from your applications that are running in the cloud and is a religion that is based on policies that are driven by the community, essentially that allow you to detect misconfigurations attacks and normals conditions in your cloud, in your cloud applications. Recently, we announced that the extension of Falco to support a cloud infrastructure and time security by parsing cloud logs, like cloud trail and so on. So now Falba can be used at the same time to protect the workloads that are running in virtual machines or containers. >>And also the cloud infrastructure to give the audience a couple of examples, focused, able to detect if somebody is running a shelf in a radius container, or if somebody is downloading a sensitive by, from an S3 bucket, all of these in real time with Falco, we decided to go really with CR study. This is Degas was one of the team members that started it, but we decided to go to the community right away, because this is one other ingredient. We are talking about the ingredients before, and there's not a successful modern security tool without being able to leverage the community and empower the community to contribute to it, to use it, to validate and so on. And that's also why we contributed Falco to the cloud native computing foundation. So that Falco is a CNCF tool and is blessed by many organizations. We are also partnering with many companies, including Amazon. Last year, we released that far gate support for Falco. And that was done is a project that was done in cooperation with Amazon, so that we could have strong runtime security for the containers that are running in. >>Well, I've got to say, first of all, congratulations. And I think that's a bold move to donate or not donate contribute to the open source community because you're enabling a lot of people to do great things. And some people might be scared. They think they might be foreclosing and beneficial in the future, but in the reality, that is the new business model open source. So I think that's worth calling out and congratulations. This is the new commercial open source paradigm. And it kind of leads into my last question, which is why is security well-positioned to benefit from open source besides the fact that the new model of getting people enabled and getting scale and getting standards like you're doing, makes everybody win. And again, that's a community model. That's not a proprietary approach. So again, source again, big part of this. Why was security benefit from opensource? >>I am a strong believer. I mean, we are in a better, we could say we are in a war, right? The good guys versus the bad guys. The internet is full of bad guys. And these bad guys are coordinated, are motivated, are sometimes we'll find it. And we'll equip. We win only if we fight this war as a community. So the old paradigm of vendors building their own Eva towers, you know, their own self-contained ecosystems and that the us as users as, as, as customers, every many different, you know, environments that don't communicate with each other, just doesn't take advantage of our capabilities. Our strength is as a community. So we are much stronger against the big guys and we have a much better chance doing when this war, if we adopt a paradigm that allows us to work together. Think only about for example, I don't know, companies any to train, you know, the workforce on the security best practices on the security tools. >>It's much better to standardize on something, build the stack that is accepted by everybody and tell it can focus on learning the stack and becoming a master of the steak rounded rather than every single organization naming the different tool. And, and then B it's very hard to attract talent and to have the right, you know, people that can help you with, with your issues in, in, in, in, in, with your goals. So the future of security is going to be open source. I'm a strong believer in that, and we'll see more and more examples like Falco of initiatives that really start with, with the community and for the community. >>Like we always say an open, open winds, always turn the lights on, put the code out there. And I think, I think the community model is winning. Congratulations, Loris Dajani CTO and founder of SIS dig congratulatory success. And thank you for coming on the cube for the ADB startup showcase open cloud innovations. Thanks for coming on. Okay. Is the cube stay with us all day long every day with the cube, check us out the cube.net. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting enterprise. Digital resilience on hybrid and multi cloud Brought to You by Iota Ho. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our continuing Siri's covering data automation brought to you by Io Tahoe. Today we're gonna look at how to ensure enterprise resilience for hybrid and multi cloud. Let's welcome in age. Eva Hora, who is the CEO of Iota A J. Always good to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >>Great to be back. David Pleasure. >>And he's joined by Fozzy Coons, who is a global principal architect for financial services. The vertical of financial services. That red hat. He's got deep experiences in that sector. Welcome, Fozzie. Good to see you. >>Thank you very much. Happy to be here. >>Fancy. Let's start with you. Look, there are a lot of views on cloud and what it is. I wonder if you could explain to us how you think about what is a hybrid cloud and and how it works. >>Sure, yes. So the hybrid cloud is a 90 architecture that incorporates some degree off workload, possibility, orchestration and management across multiple clouds. Those clouds could be private cloud or public cloud or even your own data centers. And how does it all work? It's all about secure interconnectivity and on demand. Allocation of resources across clouds and separate clouds can become hydrate when they're similarly >>interconnected. And >>it is that interconnectivity that allows the workloads workers to be moved and how management can be unified in off the street. You can work and how well you have. These interconnections has a direct impact on how well your hybrid cloud will work. >>Okay, so we'll fancy staying with you for a minute. So in the early days of Cloud that turned private Cloud was thrown a lot around a lot, but often just meant virtualization of an on PREM system and a network connection to the public cloud. Let's bring it forward. What, in your view, does a modern hybrid cloud architecture look like? >>Sure. So for modern public clouds, we see that, um, teams organizations need to focus on the portability off applications across clouds. That's very important, right? And when organizations build applications, they need to build and deploy these applications as small collections off independently, loosely coupled services, and then have those things run on the same operating system which means, in other words, running it on Lenox everywhere and building cloud native applications and being able to manage and orchestrate thes applications with platforms like KUBERNETES or read it open shit, for example. >>Okay, so that Z, that's definitely different from building a monolithic application that's fossilized and and doesn't move. So what are the challenges for customers, you know, to get to that modern cloud? Aziz, you've just described it. Is it skill sets? Is that the ability to leverage things like containers? What's your view there? >>So, I mean, from what we've seen around around the industry, especially around financial services, where I spent most of my time, we see that the first thing that we see is management right now because you have all these clouds and all these applications, you have a massive array off connections off interconnections. You also have massive array off integrations, possibility and resource allocations as well, and then orchestrating all those different moving pieces. Things like storage networks and things like those are really difficult to manage, right? That's one. What s O Management is the first challenge. The second one is workload, placement, placement. Where do you place this? How do you place this cloud? Native applications. Do you or do you keep on site on Prem? And what do you put in the cloud? That is the the the other challenge. The major one. The third one is security. Security now becomes the key challenge and concern for most customers. And we could talk about how hundreds? Yeah, >>we're definitely gonna dig into that. Let's bring a J into the conversation. A J. You know, you and I have talked about this in the past. One of the big problems that virtually every companies face is data fragmentation. Um, talk a little bit about how I owe Tahoe unifies data across both traditional systems legacy systems. And it connects to these modern I t environments. >>Yeah, sure, Dave. I mean, fancy just nailed it. There used to be about data of the volume of data on the different types of data. But as applications become or connected and interconnected at the location of that data really matters how we serve that data up to those those app. So working with red hat in our partnership with Red Hat being able Thio, inject our data Discovery machine learning into these multiple different locations. Would it be in AWS on IBM Cloud or A D. C p R. On Prem being able thio Automate that discovery? I'm pulling that. That single view of where is all my data then allows the CEO to manage cast that can do things like one. I keep the data where it is on premise or in my Oracle Cloud or in my IBM cloud on Connect. The application that needs to feed off that data on the way in which you do that is machine learning. That learns over time is it recognizes different types of data, applies policies to declassify that data. Andi and brings it all together with automation. >>Right? And that's one of the big themes and we've talked about this on earlier episodes. Is really simplification really abstracting a lot of that heavy lifting away so we can focus on things A. J A. Z. You just mentioned e nifaz e. One of the big challenges that, of course, we all talk about his governance across thes disparity data sets. I'm curious as your thoughts. How does Red Hat really think about helping customers adhere to corporate edicts and compliance regulations, which, of course, are are particularly acute within financial services. >>Oh, yeah, Yes. So for banks and the payment providers, like you've just mentioned their insurers and many other financial services firms, Um, you know, they have to adhere Thio standards such as a PC. I. D. S s in Europe. You've got the G g d p g d p r, which requires strange and tracking, reporting documentation. And you know, for them to to remain in compliance and the way we recommend our customers to address these challenges is by having an automation strategy. Right. And that type of strategy can help you to improve the security on compliance off the organization and reduce the risk after the business. Right. And we help organizations build security and compliance from the start without consulting services residencies. We also offer courses that help customers to understand how to address some of these challenges. And that's also we help organizations build security into their applications without open sources. Mueller, where, um, middle offerings and even using a platform like open shift because it allows you to run legacy applications and also continue rights applications in a unified platform right And also that provides you with, you know, with the automation and the truly that you need to continuously monitor, manage and automate the systems for security and compliance >>purposes. Hey, >>Jay, anything. Any color you could add to this conversation? >>Yeah, I'm pleased. Badly brought up Open shift. I mean, we're using open shift to be able. Thio, take that security application of controls to to the data level. It's all about context. So, understanding what data is there being able to assess it to say who should have access to it. Which application permission should be applied to it. Um, that za great combination of Red Hat tonight. Tahoe. >>But what about multi Cloud? Doesn't that complicate the situation even even further? Maybe you could talk about some of the best practices to apply automation across not only hybrid cloud, but multi >>cloud a swell. Yeah, sure. >>Yeah. So the right automation solution, you know, can be the difference between, you know, cultivating an automated enterprise or automation caress. And some of the recommendations we give our clients is to look for an automation platform that can offer the first thing is complete support. So that means have an automation solution that provides that provides, um, you know, promotes I t availability and reliability with your platform so that you can provide, you know, enterprise great support, including security and testing, integration and clear roadmaps. The second thing is vendor interoperability interoperability in that you are going to be integrating multiple clouds. So you're going to need a solution that can connect to multiple clouds. Simples lee, right? And with that comes the challenge off maintain ability. So you you you're going to need to look into a automation Ah, solution that that is easy to learn or has an easy learning curve. And then the fourth idea that we tell our customers is scalability in the in the hybrid cloud space scale is >>is >>a big, big deal here, and you need a to deploy an automation solution that can span across the whole enterprise in a constituent, consistent manner, right? And then also, that allows you finally to, uh, integrate the multiple data centers that you have, >>So A J I mean, this is a complicated situation, for if a customer has toe, make sure things work on AWS or azure or Google. Uh, they're gonna spend all their time doing that, huh? What can you add really? To simplify that that multi cloud and hybrid cloud equation? >>Yeah. I could give a few customer examples here Warming a manufacturer that we've worked with to drive that simplification Onda riel bonuses for them is has been a reduction cost. We worked with them late last year to bring the cost bend down by $10 million in 2021 so they could hit that reduced budget. Andre, What we brought to that was the ability thio deploy using open shift templates into their different environments. Where there is on premise on bond or in as you mentioned, a W s. They had G cps well, for their marketing team on a cross, those different platforms being out Thio use a template, use pre built scripts to get up and running in catalog and discover that data within minutes. It takes away the legacy of having teams of people having Thio to jump on workshop cause and I know we're all on a lot of teens. The zoom cause, um, in these current times, they just sent me is in in of hours in the day Thio manually perform all of this. So yeah, working with red hat applying machine learning into those templates those little recipes that we can put that automation toe work, regardless of which location the data is in allows us thio pull that unified view together. Right? >>Thank you, Fozzie. I wanna come back to you. So the early days of cloud, you're in the big apple, you know, financial services. Really well. Cloud was like an evil word within financial services, and obviously that's changed. It's evolved. We talked about the pandemic, has even accelerated that, Um And when you really, you know, dug into it when you talk to customers about their experiences with security in the cloud it was it was not that it wasn't good. It was great, whatever. But it was different. And there's always this issue of skill, lack of skills and multiple tools suck up teams, they're really overburdened. But in the cloud requires new thinking. You've got the shared responsibility model you've got obviously have specific corporate requirements and compliance. So this is even more complicated when you introduce multiple clouds. So what are the differences that you can share from your experience is running on a sort of either on Prem or on a mono cloud, um, or, you know, and versus across clouds. What? What? What do you suggest there? >>Yeah, you know, because of these complexities that you have explained here, Miss Configurations and the inadequate change control the top security threats. So human error is what we want to avoid because is, you know, as your clouds grow with complexity and you put humans in the mix, then the rate off eras is going to increase, and that is going to exposure to security threat. So this is where automation comes in because automation will streamline and increase the consistency off your infrastructure management. Also application development and even security operations to improve in your protection, compliance and change control. So you want to consistently configure resources according to a pre approved um, you know, pre approved policies and you want to proactively maintain a to them in a repeatable fashion over the whole life cycle. And then you also want to rapid the identified system that require patches and and reconfiguration and automate that process off patching and reconfiguring so that you don't have humans doing this type of thing, right? And you want to be able to easily apply patches and change assistant settings. According Thio, Pre defined, based on like explained before, you know, with the pre approved policies and also you want is off auditing and troubleshooting, right? And from a rate of perspective, we provide tools that enable you to do this. We have, for example, a tool called danceable that enables you to automate data center operations and security and also deployment of applications and also obvious shit yourself, you know, automates most of these things and obstruct the human beings from putting their fingers on, causing, uh, potentially introducing errors right now in looking into the new world off multiple clouds and so forth. The difference is that we're seeing here between running a single cloud or on prem is three main areas which is control security and compliance. Right control here it means if your on premise or you have one cloud, um, you know, in most cases you have control over your data and your applications, especially if you're on Prem. However, if you're in the public cloud, there is a difference there. The ownership, it is still yours. But your resources are running on somebody else's or the public clouds. You know, e w s and so forth infrastructure. So people that are going to do this need to really especially banks and governments need to be aware off the regulatory constraints off running, uh, those applications in the public cloud. And we also help customers regionalize some of these choices and also on security. You will see that if you're running on premises or in a single cloud, you have more control, especially if you're on Prem. You can control this sensitive information that you have, however, in the cloud. That's a different situation, especially from personal information of employees and things like that. You need to be really careful off that. And also again, we help you rationalize some of those choices. And then the last one is compliant. Aziz. Well, you see that if you're running on Prem or a single cloud, um, regulations come into play again, right? And if you're running a problem, you have control over that. You can document everything you have access to everything that you need. But if you're gonna go to the public cloud again, you need to think about that. We have automation, and we have standards that can help you, uh, you know, address some of these challenges for security and compliance. >>So that's really strong insights, Potsie. I mean, first of all, answerable has a lot of market momentum. Red hats in a really good job with that acquisition, your point about repeatability is critical because you can't scale otherwise. And then that idea you're you're putting forth about control, security compliance It's so true is I called it the shared responsibility model. And there was a lot of misunderstanding in the early days of cloud. I mean, yeah, maybe a W s is gonna physically secure the, you know, s three, but in the bucket. But we saw so many Miss configurations early on. And so it's key to have partners that really understand this stuff and can share the experiences of other clients. So this all sounds great. A j. You're sharp, you know, financial background. What about the economics? >>You >>know, our survey data shows that security it's at the top of the spending priority list, but budgets are stretched thin. E especially when you think about the work from home pivot and and all the areas that they had toe the holes that they had to fill their, whether it was laptops, you know, new security models, etcetera. So how do organizations pay for this? What's the business case look like in terms of maybe reducing infrastructure costs so I could, you know, pay it forward or there's a There's a risk reduction angle. What can you share >>their? Yeah. I mean, the perspective I'd like to give here is, um, not being multi cloud is multi copies of an application or data. When I think about 20 years, a lot of the work in financial services I was looking at with managing copies of data that we're feeding different pipelines, different applications. Now what we're saying I talk a lot of the work that we're doing is reducing the number of copies of that data so that if I've got a product lifecycle management set of data, if I'm a manufacturer, I'm just gonna keep that in one location. But across my different clouds, I'm gonna have best of breed applications developed in house third parties in collaboration with my supply chain connecting securely to that. That single version of the truth. What I'm not going to do is to copy that data. So ah, lot of what we're seeing now is that interconnectivity using applications built on kubernetes. Um, that decoupled from the data source that allows us to reduce those copies of data within that you're gaining from the security capability and resilience because you're not leaving yourself open to those multiple copies of data on with that. Couldn't come. Cost, cost of storage on duh cost of compute. So what we're seeing is using multi cloud to leverage the best of what each cloud platform has to offer That goes all the way to Snowflake and Hiroko on Cloud manage databases, too. >>Well, and the people cost to a swell when you think about yes, the copy creep. But then you know when something goes wrong, a human has to come in and figured out um, you brought up snowflake, get this vision of the data cloud, which is, you know, data data. I think this we're gonna be rethinking a j, uh, data architectures in the coming decade where data stays where it belongs. It's distributed, and you're providing access. Like you said, you're separating the data from the applications applications as we talked about with Fozzie. Much more portable. So it Z really the last 10 years will be different than the next 10 years. A. >>J Definitely. I think the people cast election is used. Gone are the days where you needed thio have a dozen people governing managing black policies to data. Ah, lot of that repetitive work. Those tests can be in power automated. We've seen examples in insurance were reduced teams of 15 people working in the the back office China apply security controls compliance down to just a couple of people who are looking at the exceptions that don't fit. And that's really important because maybe two years ago the emphasis was on regulatory compliance of data with policies such as GDP are in CCP a last year, very much the economic effect of reduce headcounts on on enterprises of running lean looking to reduce that cost. This year, we can see that already some of the more proactive cos they're looking at initiatives such as net zero emissions how they use data toe under understand how cape how they can become more have a better social impact. Um, and using data to drive that, and that's across all of their operations and supply chain. So those regulatory compliance issues that may have been external we see similar patterns emerging for internal initiatives that benefiting the environment, social impact and and, of course, course, >>great perspectives. Yeah, Jeff Hammer, Bucker once famously said, The best minds of my generation are trying to get people to click on ads and a J. Those examples that you just gave of, you know, social good and moving. Uh, things forward are really critical. And I think that's where Data is gonna have the biggest societal impact. Okay, guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Really appreciate your time. Keep it right there from, or insight and conversation around, creating a resilient digital business model. You're watching the >>Cube digital resilience, automated compliance, privacy and security for your multi cloud. Congratulations. You're on the journey. You have successfully transformed your organization by moving to a cloud based platform to ensure business continuity in these challenging times. But as you scale your digital activities, there is an inevitable influx of users that outpaces traditional methods of cybersecurity, exposing your data toe underlying threats on making your company susceptible toe ever greater risk to become digitally resilient. Have you applied controls your data continuously throughout the data Lifecycle? What are you doing to keep your customer on supply data private and secure? I owe Tahoe's automated, sensitive data. Discovery is pre programmed with over 300 existing policies that meet government mandated risk and compliance standards. Thes automate the process of applying policies and controls to your data. Our algorithm driven recommendation engine alerts you to risk exposure at the data level and suggests the appropriate next steps to remain compliant on ensure sensitive data is secure. Unsure about where your organization stands In terms of digital resilience, Sign up for a minimal cost commitment. Free data Health check. Let us run our sensitive data discovery on key unmapped data silos and sources to give you a clear understanding of what's in your environment. Book time within Iot. Tahoe Engineer Now >>Okay, let's now get into the next segment where we'll explore data automation. But from the angle of digital resilience within and as a service consumption model, we're now joined by Yusuf Khan, who heads data services for Iot, Tahoe and Shirish County up in. Who's the vice president and head of U. S. Sales at happiest Minds? Gents, welcome to the program. Great to have you in the Cube. >>Thank you, David. >>Trust you guys talk about happiest minds. This notion of born digital, foreign agile. I like that. But talk about your mission at the company. >>Sure. >>A former in 2011 Happiest Mind is a born digital born a child company. The reason is that we are focused on customers. Our customer centric approach on delivering digitals and seamless solutions have helped us be in the race. Along with the Tier one providers, Our mission, happiest people, happiest customers is focused to enable customer happiness through people happiness. We have Bean ranked among the top 25 i t services company in the great places to work serving hour glass to ratings off 41 against the rating off. Five is among the job in the Indian nineties services company that >>shows the >>mission on the culture. What we have built on the values right sharing, mindful, integrity, learning and social on social responsibilities are the core values off our company on. That's where the entire culture of the company has been built. >>That's great. That sounds like a happy place to be. Now you said you had up data services for Iot Tahoe. We've talked in the past. Of course you're out of London. What >>do you what? Your >>day to day focus with customers and partners. What you focused >>on? Well, David, my team work daily with customers and partners to help them better understand their data, improve their data quality, their data governance on help them make that data more accessible in a self service kind of way. To the stakeholders within those businesses on dis is all a key part of digital resilience that will will come on to talk about but later. You're >>right, e mean, that self service theme is something that we're gonna we're gonna really accelerate this decade, Yussef and so. But I wonder before we get into that, maybe you could talk about the nature of the partnership with happiest minds, you know? Why do you guys choose toe work closely together? >>Very good question. Um, we see Hyo Tahoe on happiest minds as a great mutual fit. A Suresh has said, uh, happiest minds are very agile organization um, I think that's one of the key things that attracts their customers on Io. Tahoe is all about automation. Uh, we're using machine learning algorithms to make data discovery data cataloging, understanding, data done. See, uh, much easier on. We're enabling customers and partners to do it much more quickly. So when you combine our emphasis on automation with the emphasis on agility that happiest minds have that that's a really nice combination work works very well together, very powerful. I think the other things that a key are both businesses, a serious have said, are really innovative digital native type type companies. Um, very focused on newer technologies, the cloud etcetera on. Then finally, I think they're both Challenger brands on happiest minds have a really positive, fresh ethical approach to people and customers that really resonates with us at Ideo Tahoe to >>great thank you for that. So Russia, let's get into the whole notion of digital resilience. I wanna I wanna sort of set it up with what I see, and maybe you can comment be prior to the pandemic. A lot of customers that kind of equated disaster recovery with their business continuance or business resilient strategy, and that's changed almost overnight. How have you seen your clients respond to that? What? I sometimes called the forced march to become a digital business. And maybe you could talk about some of the challenges that they faced along the way. >>Absolutely. So, uh, especially during this pandemic, times when you say Dave, customers have been having tough times managing their business. So happiest minds. Being a digital Brazilian company, we were able to react much faster in the industry, apart from the other services company. So one of the key things is the organisation's trying to adopt onto the digital technologies. Right there has bean lot off data which has been to manage by these customers on There have been lot off threats and risk, which has been to manage by the CEO Seo's so happiest minds digital resilient technology, right where we bring in the data. Complaints as a service were ableto manage the resilience much ahead off other competitors in the market. We were ableto bring in our business continuity processes from day one, where we were ableto deliver our services without any interruption to the services. What we were delivered to our customers So that is where the digital resilience with business community process enabled was very helpful for us. Toe enable our customers continue their business without any interruptions during pandemics. >>So I mean, some of the challenges that customers tell me they obviously they had to figure out how to get laptops to remote workers and that that whole remote work from home pivot figure out how to secure the end points. And, you know, those were kind of looking back there kind of table stakes, But it sounds like you've got a digital business. Means a data business putting data at the core, I like to say, but so I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about maybe the philosophy you have toward digital resilience in the specific approach you take with clients? >>Absolutely. They seen any organization data becomes. The key on that, for the first step is to identify the critical data. Right. So we this is a six step process. What we following happiest minds. First of all, we take stock off the current state, though the customers think that they have a clear visibility off their data. How are we do more often assessment from an external point off view on see how critical their data is, then we help the customers to strategies that right. The most important thing is to identify the most important critical herself. Data being the most critical assert for any organization. Identification off the data's key for the customers. Then we help in building a viable operating model to ensure these identified critical assets are secure on monitor dearly so that they are consumed well as well as protected from external threats. Then, as 1/4 step, we try to bring in awareness, toe the people we train them >>at >>all levels in the organization. That is a P for people to understand the importance off the digital ourselves and then as 1/5 step, we work as a back up plan in terms of bringing in a very comprehensive and a holistic testing approach on people process as well as in technology. We'll see how the organization can withstand during a crisis time, and finally we do a continuous governance off this data, which is a key right. It is not just a one step process. We set up the environment, we do the initial analysis and set up the strategy on continuously govern this data to ensure that they are not only know managed will secure as well as they also have to meet the compliance requirements off the organization's right. That is where we help organizations toe secure on Meet the regulations off the organizations. As for the privacy laws, so this is a constant process. It's not on one time effort. We do a constant process because every organization goes towards their digital journey on. They have to face all these as part off the evolving environment on digital journey. And that's where they should be kept ready in terms off. No recovering, rebounding on moving forward if things goes wrong. >>So let's stick on that for a minute, and then I wanna bring yourself into the conversation. So you mentioned compliance and governance when when your digital business, you're, as you say, you're a data business, so that brings up issues. Data sovereignty. Uh, there's governance, this compliance. There's things like right to be forgotten. There's data privacy, so many things. These were often kind of afterthoughts for businesses that bolted on, if you will. I know a lot of executives are very much concerned that these air built in on, and it's not a one shot deal. So do you have solutions around compliance and governance? Can you deliver that as a service? Maybe you could talk about some of the specifics there, >>so some of way have offered multiple services. Tow our customers on digital against. On one of the key service is the data complaints. As a service here we help organizations toe map the key data against the data compliance requirements. Some of the features includes in terms off the continuous discovery off data right, because organizations keep adding on data when they move more digital on helping the helping and understanding the actual data in terms off the residents of data, it could be a heterogeneous data soldiers. It could be on data basis, or it could be even on the data legs. Or it could be a no even on compromise all the cloud environment. So identifying the data across the various no heterogeneous environment is very key. Feature off our solution. Once we identify classify this sensitive data, the data privacy regulations on the traveling laws have to be map based on the business rules So we define those rules on help map those data so that organizations know how critical their digital assets are. Then we work on a continuous marching off data for anomalies because that's one of the key teachers off the solution, which needs to be implemented on the day to day operational basis. So we're helping monitoring those anomalies off data for data quality management on an ongoing basis. On finally, we also bringing the automated data governance where we can manage the sensory data policies on their later relationships in terms off mapping on manage their business roots on we drive reputations toe Also suggest appropriate actions to the customers. Take on those specific data sets. >>Great. Thank you, Yousef. Thanks for being patient. I want to bring in Iota ho thio discussion and understand where your customers and happiest minds can leverage your data automation capability that you and I have talked about in the past. I'm gonna be great if you had an example is well, but maybe you could pick it up from there, >>John. I mean, at a high level, assertions are clearly articulated. Really? Um, Hyoty, who delivers business agility. So that's by, um accelerating the time to operationalize data, automating, putting in place controls and actually putting helping put in place digital resilience. I mean way if we step back a little bit in time, um, traditional resilience in relation to data often met manually, making multiple copies of the same data. So you have a d b A. They would copy the data to various different places, and then business users would access it in those functional style owes. And of course, what happened was you ended up with lots of different copies off the same data around the enterprise. Very inefficient. ONDA course ultimately, uh, increases your risk profile. Your risk of a data breach. Um, it's very hard to know where everything is. And I realized that expression. They used David the idea of the forced march to digital. So with enterprises that are going on this forced march, what they're finding is they don't have a single version of the truth, and almost nobody has an accurate view of where their critical data is. Then you have containers bond with containers that enables a big leap forward so you could break applications down into micro services. Updates are available via a p I s on. So you don't have the same need thio to build and to manage multiple copies of the data. So you have an opportunity to just have a single version of the truth. Then your challenge is, how do you deal with these large legacy data states that the service has been referring Thio, where you you have toe consolidate and that's really where I attack comes in. Um, we massively accelerate that process of putting in a single version of the truth into place. So by automatically discovering the data, discovering what's dubica? What's redundant? Uh, that means you can consolidate it down to a single trusted version much more quickly. We've seen many customers have tried to do this manually, and it's literally taken years using manual methods to cover even a small percentage of their I T estates. With our tire, you could do it really very quickly on you can have tangible results within weeks and months on Ben, you can apply controls to the data based on context. So who's the user? What's the content? What's the use case? Things like data quality validations or access permissions on. Then, once you've done there. Your applications and your enterprise are much more secure, much more resilient. As a result, you've got to do these things whilst retaining agility, though. So coming full circle. This is where the partnership with happiest minds really comes in as well. You've got to be agile. You've gotta have controls. Um, on you've got a drug toward the business outcomes. Uh, and it's doing those three things together that really deliver for the customer. >>Thank you. Use f. I mean you and I. In previous episodes, we've looked in detail at the business case. You were just talking about the manual labor involved. We know that you can't scale, but also there's that compression of time. Thio get to the next step in terms of ultimately getting to the outcome. And we talked to a number of customers in the Cube, and the conclusion is, it's really consistent that if you could accelerate the time to value, that's the key driver reducing complexity, automating and getting to insights faster. That's where you see telephone numbers in terms of business impact. So my question is, where should customers start? I mean, how can they take advantage of some of these opportunities that we've discussed today. >>Well, we've tried to make that easy for customers. So with our Tahoe and happiest minds, you can very quickly do what we call a data health check. Um, this is a is a 2 to 3 week process, uh, to really quickly start to understand on deliver value from your data. Um, so, iota, who deploys into the customer environment? Data doesn't go anywhere. Um, we would look at a few data sources on a sample of data. Onda. We can very rapidly demonstrate how they discovery those catalog e on understanding Jupiter data and redundant data can be done. Um, using machine learning, um, on how those problems can be solved. Um, And so what we tend to find is that we can very quickly, as I say in the matter of a few weeks, show a customer how they could get toe, um, or Brazilian outcome on then how they can scale that up, take it into production on, then really understand their data state? Better on build. Um, Brasiliense into the enterprise. >>Excellent. There you have it. We'll leave it right there. Guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Best of luck to you and the partnership Be well, >>Thank you, David Suresh. Thank you. Thank >>you for watching everybody, This is Dave Volonte for the Cuban are ongoing Siris on data automation without >>Tahoe, digital resilience, automated compliance, privacy and security for your multi cloud. Congratulations. You're on the journey. You have successfully transformed your organization by moving to a cloud based platform to ensure business continuity in these challenging times. But as you scale your digital activities, there is an inevitable influx of users that outpaces traditional methods of cybersecurity, exposing your data toe underlying threats on making your company susceptible toe ever greater risk to become digitally resilient. Have you applied controls your data continuously throughout the data lifecycle? What are you doing to keep your customer on supply data private and secure? I owe Tahoe's automated sensitive data. Discovery is pre programmed with over 300 existing policies that meet government mandated risk and compliance standards. Thes automate the process of applying policies and controls to your data. Our algorithm driven recommendation engine alerts you to risk exposure at the data level and suggests the appropriate next steps to remain compliant on ensure sensitive data is secure. Unsure about where your organization stands in terms of digital resilience. Sign up for our minimal cost commitment. Free data health check. Let us run our sensitive data discovery on key unmapped data silos and sources to give you a clear understanding of what's in your environment. Book time within Iot. Tahoe Engineer. Now. >>Okay, now we're >>gonna go into the demo. We want to get a better understanding of how you can leverage open shift. And I owe Tahoe to facilitate faster application deployment. Let me pass the mic to Sabetta. Take it away. >>Uh, thanks, Dave. Happy to be here again, Guys, uh, they've mentioned names to be the Davis. I'm the enterprise account executive here. Toyota ho eso Today we just wanted to give you guys a general overview of how we're using open shift. Yeah. Hey, I'm Noah Iota host data operations engineer, working with open ship. And I've been learning the Internets of open shift for, like, the past few months, and I'm here to share. What a plan. Okay, so So before we begin, I'm sure everybody wants to know. Noel, what are the benefits of using open shift. Well, there's five that I can think of a faster time, the operation simplicity, automation control and digital resilience. Okay, so that that's really interesting, because there's an exact same benefits that we had a Tahoe delivered to our customers. But let's start with faster time the operation by running iota. Who on open shift? Is it faster than, let's say, using kubernetes and other platforms >>are >>objective iota. Who is to be accessible across multiple cloud platforms, right? And so by hosting our application and containers were able to achieve this. So to answer your question, it's faster to create and use your application images using container tools like kubernetes with open shift as compared to, like kubernetes with docker cry over container D. Okay, so we got a bit technical there. Can you explain that in a bit more detail? Yeah, there's a bit of vocabulary involved, uh, so basically, containers are used in developing things like databases, Web servers or applications such as I have top. What's great about containers is that they split the workload so developers can select the libraries without breaking anything. And since Hammond's can update the host without interrupting the programmers. Uh, now, open shift works hand in hand with kubernetes to provide a way to build those containers for applications. Okay, got It s basically containers make life easier for developers and system happens. How does open shift differ from other platforms? Well, this kind of leads into the second benefit I want to talk about, which is simplicity. Basically, there's a lot of steps involved with when using kubernetes with docker. But open shift simplifies this with their source to image process that takes the source code and turns it into a container image. But that's not all. Open shift has a lot of automation and features that simplify working with containers, an important one being its Web console. Here. I've set up a light version of open ship called Code Ready Containers, and I was able to set up her application right from the Web console. And I was able to set up this entire thing in Windows, Mac and Lennox. So its environment agnostic in that sense. Okay, so I think I've seen the top left that this is a developers view. What would a systems admin view look like? It's a good question. So here's the administrator view and this kind of ties into the benefit of control. Um, this view gives insights into each one of the applications and containers that are running, and you could make changes without affecting deployment. Andi can also, within this view, set up each layer of security, and there's multiple that you can prop up. But I haven't fully messed around with it because with my luck, I'd probably locked myself out. So that seems pretty secure. Is there a single point security such as you use a log in? Or are there multiple layers of security? Yeah, there are multiple layers of security. There's your user login security groups and general role based access controls. Um, but there's also a ton of layers of security surrounding like the containers themselves. But for the sake of time, I won't get too far into it. Okay, eso you mentioned simplicity In time. The operation is being two of the benefits. You also briefly mention automation. And as you know, automation is the backbone of our platform here, Toyota Ho. So that's certainly grabbed my attention. Can you go a bit more in depth in terms of automation? Open shift provides extensive automation that speeds up that time the operation. Right. So the latest versions of open should come with a built in cryo container engine, which basically means that you get to skip that container engine insulation step and you don't have to, like, log into each individual container host and configure networking, configure registry servers, storage, etcetera. So I'd say, uh, it automates the more boring kind of tedious process is Okay, so I see the iota ho template there. What does it allow me to do? Um, in terms of automation in application development. So we've created an open shift template which contains our application. This allows developers thio instantly, like set up our product within that template. So, Noah Last question. Speaking of vocabulary, you mentioned earlier digital resilience of the term we're hearing, especially in the banking and finance world. Um, it seems from what you described, industries like banking and finance would be more resilient using open shift, Correct. Yeah, In terms of digital resilience, open shift will give you better control over the consumption of resource is each container is using. In addition, the benefit of containers is that, like I mentioned earlier since Hammond's can troubleshoot servers about bringing down the application and if the application does go down is easy to bring it back up using templates and, like the other automation features that open ship provides. Okay, so thanks so much. Know us? So any final thoughts you want to share? Yeah. I just want to give a quick recap with, like, the five benefits that you gained by using open shift. Uh, the five are timeto operation automation, control, security and simplicity. You could deploy applications faster. You could simplify the workload you could automate. A lot of the otherwise tedious processes can maintain full control over your workflow. And you could assert digital resilience within your environment. Guys, >>Thanks for that. Appreciate the demo. Um, I wonder you guys have been talking about the combination of a Iot Tahoe and red hat. Can you tie that in subito Digital resilience >>Specifically? Yeah, sure, Dave eso when we speak to the benefits of security controls in terms of digital resilience at Io Tahoe, we automated detection and apply controls at the data level, so this would provide for more enhanced security. >>Okay, But so if you were trying to do all these things manually. I mean, what what does that do? How much time can I compress? What's the time to value? >>So with our latest versions, Biota we're taking advantage of faster deployment time associated with container ization and kubernetes. So this kind of speeds up the time it takes for customers. Start using our software as they be ableto quickly spin up io towel on their own on premise environment are otherwise in their own cloud environment, like including aws. Assure or call GP on IBM Cloud a quick start templates allow flexibility deploy into multi cloud environments all just using, like, a few clicks. Okay, so so now just quickly add So what we've done iota, Who here is We've really moved our customers away from the whole idea of needing a team of engineers to apply controls to data as compared to other manually driven work flows. Eso with templates, automation, previous policies and data controls. One person can be fully operational within a few hours and achieve results straight out of the box on any cloud. >>Yeah, we've been talking about this theme of abstracting the complexity. That's really what we're seeing is a major trend in in this coming decade. Okay, great. Thanks, Sabina. Noah, How could people get more information or if they have any follow up questions? Where should they go? >>Yeah, sure. They've. I mean, if you guys are interested in learning more, you know, reach out to us at info at iata ho dot com to speak with one of our sales engineers. I mean, we love to hear from you, so book a meeting as soon as you can. All >>right. Thanks, guys. Keep it right there from or cube content with.

>>Yeah, yeah, hello again and welcome to our last session of the day before we head to the meat. The experts roundtables how T Mobile is building a data driven organization with thought spot and whip prone. Today we'll hear how T Mobile is leaving Excel hell by enabling all employees with self service analytics so they can get instant answers on curated data. We're lucky to be closing off the day with these two speakers. Evo Benzema, manager of business intelligence services at T Mobile Netherlands, and Sanjeev Chowed Hurry, lead architect AT T Mobile, Netherlands, from Whip Chrome. Thank you both very much for being with us today, for today's session will cover how mobile telco markets have specific dynamics and what it waas that T Mobile was facing. We'll also go over the Fox spot and whip pro solution and how they address T mobile challenges. Lastly, but not least, of course, we'll cover Team Mobil's experience and learnings and takeaways that you can use in your business without further ado Evo, take us away. >>Thank you very much. Well, let's first talk a little bit about T Mobile, Netherlands. We are part off the larger deutsche Telekom Group that ISS operating in Europe and the US We are the second largest mobile phone company in the Netherlands, and we offer the full suite awful services that you expect mobile landline in A in an interactive TV. And of course, Broadbent. Um so this is what the Mobile is appreciation at at the moment, a little bit about myself. I'm already 11 years at T Mobile, which is we part being part of the furniture. In the meantime, I started out at the front line service desk employee, and that's essentially first time I came into a touch with data, and what I found is that I did not have any possibility of myself to track my performance. Eso I build something myself and here I saw that this need was there because really quickly, roughly 2020 off my employer colleagues were using us as well. This was a little bit where my efficient came from that people need to have access to data across the organization. Um, currently, after 11 years running the BR Services Department on, I'm driving this transformation now to create a data driven organization with a heavy customer focus. Our big goal. Our vision is that within two years, 8% of all our employees use data on a day to day basis to make their decisions and to improve their decision. So over, tuition Chief. Now, thank >>you. Uh, something about the proof. So we prize a global I T and business process consulting and delivery company. Uh, we have a comprehensive portfolio of services with presents, but in 61 countries and maybe 1000 plus customers. As we're speaking with Donald, keep customers Region Point of view. We primary look to help our customers in reinventing the business models with digital first approach. That's how we look at our our customers toe move to digitalization as much as possible as early as possible. Talking about myself. Oh, I have little over two decades of experience in the intelligence and tell cope landscape. Calico Industries. I have worked with most of the telcos totally of in us in India and in Europe is well now I have well known cream feed on brownfield implementation off their house on big it up platforms. At present, I'm actively working with seminal data transform initiative mentioned by evil, and we are actively participating in defining the logical and physical footprint for future architectures for criminal. I understand we are also, in addition, taking care off and two and ownership off off projects, deliveries on operations, back to you >>so a little bit over about the general telco market dynamics. It's very saturated market. Everybody has mobile phones already. It's the growth is mostly gone, and what you see is that we have a lot of trouble around customer brand loyalty. People switch around from provider to provider quite easily, and new customers are quite expensive. So our focus is always to make customer loyal and to keep them in the company. And this is where the opportunities are as well. If we increase the retention of customers or reduce what we say turned. This is where the big potential is for around to use of data, and we should not do this by only offering this to the C suite or the directors or the mark managers data. But this needs to be happening toe all employees so that they can use this to really help these customers and and services customers is situated. This that we can create his loyalty and then This is where data comes in as a big opportunity going forward. Yeah. So what are these challenges, though? What we're facing two uses the data. And this is, uh, these air massive over our big. At least let's put it like that is we have a lot of data. We create around four billion new record today in our current platforms. The problem is not everybody can use or access this data. You need quite some technical expertise to add it, or they are pre calculated into mawr aggregated dashboard. So if you have a specific question, uh, somebody on the it side on the buy side should have already prepared something so that you can get this answer. So we have a huge back lock off questions and data answers that currently we cannot answer on. People are limited because they need technical expertise to use this data. These are the challenges we're trying to solve going forward. >>Uh, so the challenge we see in the current landscape is T mobile as a civil mentioned number two telco in Europe and then actually in Netherlands. And then we have a lot of acquisitions coming in tow of the landscape. So overall complexity off technical stack increases year by year and acquisition by acquisition it put this way. So we at this time we're talking about Claudia Irureta in for Matic Uh, aws and many other a complex silo systems. We actually are integrated where we see multiple. In some cases, the data silos are also duplicated. So the challenge here is how do we look into this data? How do we present this data to business and still ensure that Ah, mhm Kelsey of the data is reliable. So in this project, what we looked at is we curated that around 10% off the data of us and made it ready for business to look at too hot spot. And this also basically help us not looking at the A larger part of the data all together in one shot. What's is going to step by step with manageable set of data, obviously manages the time also and get control on cost has. >>So what did we actually do and how we did? Did we do it? And what are we going to do going forward? Why did we chose to spot and what are we measuring to see if we're successful is is very simply, Some stuff I already alluded to is usual adoption. This needs to be a tool that is useable by everybody. Eso This is adoption. The user experience is a major key to to focus on at the beginning. Uh, but lastly, and this is just also cold hard. Fact is, it needs to save time. It needs to be faster. It needs to be smarter than the way we used to do it. So we focused first on setting up the environment with our most used and known data set within the company. The data set that is used already on the daily basis by a large group. We know what it's how it works. We know how it acts on this is what we decided to make available fire talksport this cut down the time around, uh, data modeling a lot because we had this already done so we could go right away into training users to start using this data, and this is already going on very successfully. We have now 40 heavily engaged users. We go went life less than a month ago, and we see very successful feedback on user experience. We had either yesterday, even a beautiful example off loading a new data set and and giving access to user that did not have a training for talk sport or did not know what thoughts, what Waas. And we didn't in our he was actively using this data set by building its own pin boards and asking questions already. And this shows a little bit the speed off delivery we can have with this without, um, much investments on data modeling, because that's part was already done. So our second stage is a little bit more ambitious, and this is making sure that all this information, all our information, is available for frontline uh, employees. So a customer service but also chills employees that they can have data specifically for them that make them their life easier. So this is performance KP ice. But it could also be the beautiful word that everybody always uses customer Terry, 60 fuse. But this is giving the power off, asking questions and getting answers quickly to everybody in the company. That's the big stage two after that, and this is going forward a little bit further in the future and we are not completely there yet, is we also want Thio. Really? After we set up the government's properly give the power to add your own data to our curated data sets that that's when you've talked about. And then with that, we really hope that Oh, our ambition and our plan is to bring this really to more than 800 users on a daily basis to for uses on a daily basis across our company. So this is not for only marketing or only technology or only one segment. This is really an application that we want to set in our into system that works for everybody. And this is our ambition that we will work through in these three, uh, steps. So what did we learn so far? And and Sanjeev, please out here as well, But one I already said, this is no which, which data set you start. This is something. Start with something. You know, start with something that has a wide appeal to more than one use case and make sure that you make this decision. Don't ask somebody else. You know what your company needs? The best you should be in the driver seat off this decision. And this is I would be saying really the big one because this will enable you to kickstart this really quickly going forward. Um, second, wellness and this is why we introduce are also here together is don't do this alone. Do this together with, uh I t do this together with security. Do this together with business to tackle all these little things that you don't think about yourself. Maybe security, governance, network connections and stuff like that. Make sure that you do this as a company and don't try to do this on your own, because there's also again it's removes. Is so much obstacles going forward? Um, lastly, I want to mention is make sure that you measure your success and this is people in the data domain sometimes forget to measure themselves. Way can make sure everybody else, but we forget ourselves. But really try to figure out what makes its successful for you. And we use adoption percentages, usual experience, surveys and and really calculations about time saved. We have some rough calculations that we can calculate changes thio monetary value, and this will save us millions in years. by just automating time that is now used on, uh, now to taken by people on manual work. So, do you have any to adhere? A swell You, Susan, You? >>Yeah. So I'll just pick on what you want to mention about. Partner goes live with I t and other functions. But that is a very keating, because from my point of view, you see if you can see that the data very nice and data quality is also very clear. If we have data preparing at the right level, ready to be consumed, and data quality is taken, care off this feel 30 less challenges. Uh, when the user comes and questioned the gator, those are the things which has traded Quiz it we should be sure about before we expose the data to the Children. When you're confident about your data, you are confident that the user will also get the right numbers they're looking for and the number they have. Their mind matches with what they see on the screen. And that's where you see there. >>Yeah, and that that that again helps that adoption, and that makes it so powerful. So I fully agree. >>Thank you. Eva and Sanjeev. This is the picture perfect example of how a thought spot can get up and running, even in a large, complex organization like T Mobile and Sanjay. Thank you for sharing your experience on how whip rose system integration expertise paved the way for Evo and team to realize value quickly. Alright, everyone's favorite part. Let's get to some questions. Evil will start with you. How have your skill? Data experts reacted to thought spot Is it Onley non technical people that seem to be using the tool or is it broader than that? You may be on. >>Yes, of course, that happens in the digital environment. Now this. This is an interesting question because I was a little bit afraid off the direction off our data experts and are technically skilled people that know how to work in our fight and sequel on all these things. But here I saw a lot of enthusiasm for the tool itself and and from two sides, either to use it themselves because they see it's a very easy way Thio get to data themselves, but also especially that they see this as a benefit, that it frees them up from? Well, let's say mundane questions they get every day. And and this is especially I got pleasantly surprised with their reaction on that. And I think maybe you can also say something. How? That on the i t site that was experienced. >>Well, uh, yeah, from park department of you, As you mentioned, it is changing the way business is looking at. The data, if you ask me, have taken out talkto data rather than looking at it. Uh, it is making the interactivity that that's a keyword. But I see that the gap between the technical and function folks is also diminishing, if I may say so over a period of time, because the technical folks now would be able to work with functional teams on the depth and coverage of the data, rather than making it available and looking at the technical side off it. So now they can have a a fair discussion with the functional teams on. Okay, these are refute. Other things you can look at because I know this data is available can make it usable for you, especially the time it takes for the I t. G. When graduate dashboard, Uh, that time can we utilize toe improve the quality and reliability of the data? That's yeah. See the value coming. So if you ask me to me, I see the technical people moving towards more of a technical functional role. Tools such as >>That's great. I love that saying now we can talk to data instead of just looking at it. Um Alright, Evo, I think that will finish up with one last question for you that I think you probably could speak. Thio. Given your experience, we've seen that some organizations worry about providing access to data for everyone. How do you make sure that everyone gets the same answer? >>Yes. The big data Girlfriends question thesis What I like so much about that the platform is completely online. Everything it happens online and everything is terrible. Which means, uh, in the good old days, people will do something on their laptop. Beirut at a logic to it, they were aggregated and then they put it in a power point and they will share it. But nobody knew how this happened because it all happened offline. With this approach, everything is transparent. I'm a big I love the word transparency in this. Everything is available for everybody. So you will not have a discussion anymore. About how did you get to this number or how did you get to this? So the question off getting two different answers to the same question is removed because everything happens. Transparency, online, transparent, online. And this is what I think, actually, make that question moot. Asl Long as you don't start exporting this to an offline environment to do your own thing, you are completely controlling, complete transparent. And this is why I love to share options, for example and on this is something I would really keep focusing on. Keep it online, keep it visible, keep it traceable. And there, actually, this problem then stops existing. >>Thank you, Evelyn. Cindy, That was awesome. And thank you to >>all of our presenters. I appreciate your time so much. I hope all of you at home enjoyed that as much as I did. I know a lot of you did. I was watching the chat. You know who you are. I don't think that I'm just a little bit in awe and completely inspired by where we are from a technological perspective, even outside of thoughts about it feels like we're finally at a time where we can capitalize on the promise that cloud and big data made to us so long ago. I loved getting to see Anna and James describe how you can maximize the investment both in time and money that you've already made by moving your data into a performance cloud data warehouse. It was cool to see that doubled down on with the session, with AWS seeing a direct query on Red Shift. And even with something that's has so much scale like TV shows and genres combining all of that being able to search right there Evo in Sanjiv Wow. I mean being able to combine all of those different analytics tools being able to free up these analysts who could do much more important and impactful work than just making dashboards and giving self service analytics to so many different employees. That's incredible. And then, of course, from our experts on the panel, I just think it's so fascinating to see how experts that came from industries like finance or consulting, where they saw the imperative that you needed to move to thes third party data sets enriching and organizations data. So thank you to everyone. It was fascinating. I appreciate everybody at home joining us to We're not quite done yet. Though. I'm happy to say that we after this have the product roadmap session and that we are also then going to move into hearing and being able to ask directly our speakers today and meet the expert session. So please join us for that. We'll see you there. Thank you so much again. It was really a pleasure having you.

from New York it's the cube covering escape 19 okay welcome back to the cube coverage New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference the first one ever in the industry is called escape 2019 we're in New York so escapee from New York City from cloud that's the conversation all the thought leaders are here and executives people thinking about the next generation architecture and top tracks are all here if it's Wednesday who's the chief information security officer for Flextronics flex let's thank you for coming on love to have see so some because security seems to be there always a top conversation you got a very busy job I do yes you heard a lot of pressure all the time it's fun it's so fun for me so yeah as a Caesar and it's always like security stop in mind right of everyone out these days yeah and it's very sir one of the most interesting job I think most of the interesting for my trophies I learned so much about our business and they have insight into so many things that's actually really great you know one of the things I was just talking about on the kind of cube conversation was you know how date is really important part of it and how data backup and recovery was built on old thinking around you know data centers failing floods hurricanes electricity gets outages but the biggest disruption in business today is security security threats and so that's the cyber security pressure it's causing CISOs to to be mindful of the best architecture the best platform do we have the right tools so I wanna get your thoughts how are you thinking about that as an organization because you are you building in-house developers are you how you how are you organizing how are you gearing up to fight the battles that need to be fought so I am and I'm with the company so if Lex is a big manufacturing company right 26 billion so we have a lot of p2p business not consumer business which is I believe a different perspective of security versus actually like a consumer company facing so and I'm if in a security team for 15 years so we put it up like security operations and the orders kind of things really right we're old school I am what school learnt everything in that right but you a lot of IOT I mean you just really achieve oh yeah Industrial tea it's one of the topic but coming back to you you're right data is actually the center in Flour business data is getting more center right you collect data from the machine you collect data actually for the business actually to make more decisions right and could be predictive maintenance could be inventory management there could be a lot of things right you have to think about it so and the funny thing is I'm real I'm the seasonal for five years 15 years with the security team 20 years with the company so I rebuilt the team always like every three four years you like it's a kind of rebirth of the team we renew we add new skills right and cloud is one of the things which I think it's a fundamental change and the change is actually with it's actually on the development side what it means with that it's a security team has to move to serve the developers and the problem if the wood school was always like it's after sort so why I secured to such an issue because we had to do patching after we found vulnerabilities right and then old network is unsecure you need to wrap something around that like we did firewall so it was always an after sort now with the cloud it's changing because you have a lot of different things to do but basically we need to enable developers to be very quick and deploy their software very quickly so you know it is a fundamental change in the way you have to think the particular yeah and then that brings up the good question love to ask you because given you guys again not a consumer like Capital One yeah they don't challenge they got they weren't hacked Amazon actually the firewall was misconfigured an s3 bucket but that's a consumer company you have data though you're an industrial company got a lot of industrial IOT ransomware folks are targeting data yes and everyone's a target it's your surface area is large but you probably lock that down in the past so how are you thinking about all this new stuff so yeah I mean IOT it's I mean I would tease the problem as you said Industrial right it's not solved yet completely right because they still have to rethink a lot of the vendors providing this machinery which you've purchased for 25-30 years right this Silla wood school right sometimes like the one witness you can't upgrade or whatever such basic things they'd be lacking actually in terms of security there still has to be a shift in this you know not just in the industry but in a general thinking how you do that yes I have a big environment so we locked it down we use a lot of innovative technologies actually preventive measurements was also detected measuring and you need to create kind of mightily a concept where you actually start okay what is if this figures how we test it okay this face do we have other measurements where we can try to prevent measure stop those kind of things right but Wrentham is a big one there's other things as you know like hacking I mean they're kept in I was healing probably the capital one was an interesting money my I believe in that for the cloud its configuration issues right which I think it comes with cloud security it's about policy and configuration management right how you manage that and how you think about it but it's not it was not a nation gonna solve that I mean that's a open s3 bucket that's trivial I wasn't a big yes and no you look if you look at that it was a little bit more in detail so it was actually the back firewall was misconfigured which is a mod security running on a fresh air but the Miss configuration was actually a SS as server surgery force request issue which means like you tricked this firewall in giving you information you shouldn't give you so it was a little bit more granular as people think it was right just as free pocket configuration so it was a little bit more greener but I think that's the word the difficult comes about it which every security it's a complex problem right it's the many things you have - configuration error it was a configuration dumb as an s3 bucket no it was not rounded more sophisticated but not that sophisticated was it yellow what the change I would not sophisticated but something it's not easy to solve so you have to think about it but you're right it's still something exploit from a corner case it's still something you could have I mean I I'm careful to say you could have avoided yes you could because that's for sure but I know it's a complex environment right I'm not a human as humans involved and I know I don't know that eaters exactly we only know that once it's published right so it's very hard to to charge well let's bring some cloud security so let me ask you on multi-cloud this is a multi cloud conference what's your definition of multi-cloud how do you look at the multiple clouds for me more debris cloud is actually doesn't matter we had the good keynote where I said it's a bunch of service right that's how I see my two cloud it's a bunch of service could be my data centers in the public cloud data centers with different vendors that's what a cow is where I move my services should be actually independent from the public hybrid on-premise whatever it is right that's basically how I see it so it doesn't matter it's infrastructure on demand leverage it leverage it it could be say hey today I spin off this test server but you know what today it seems to be a cheaper all running on the Eva Lovelace versus CPC let's do it here next day next week we might do it somewhere else whatever you trigger whatever what is your requirements so you'd only look at that resource that like that how do you think about the cloud security then because the configurations compliance how do you how do you stay on top of that so that's an interesting thing because we a big enterprise but we as you said know consumer business so our problem is to find the right skill set to attract the right people to our company to do that right because this is our we have some cloud but it's not yet there's a journey we are trying to do as most of the enterprise so we're looking into startups managed services we say okay where are the gaps where we have to really have to outsource some of the things and gaps where we need to get information what's your advice to other CISOs out there that are in the b2b space of none other deal to consumer but I have to get serious that is now becoming more industrialized on the IOT side because you guys have been you know been there done that you have a big footprint on the IOT because you're history but as people get more facilities and they have more virtual offices more people working the edge is extending what's your advice to those CEOs who have to deal with this industrial and IOT edge I think you have to visibility is the key ingredient is first right if you don't know what you have it's very hard to understand what's the risk portfolios right so you need to find the right to set and don't believe you know what they have it's fantastic what you see when you use the right tool what this is everything is connected I mean basically even like I found like this coffee market I connect the devices right it's like like everyone just don't understand like it's kind of light poles get both wake multi-threaded processor what is that doing so there's I mean but visibility is a key ingredient so you have to understand and then you have to look into how you might take a terrace what is your risk about it right I mean if the coffee mug goes down I don't really care but if my testicles sound and I shut down the production I really care about that so you need to understand that risk and say how can i mitigating risk so while I got you here what's your final question what's your message to suppliers out there that all want to sell you something they want to sell you another tool you know an another tool you know I got a platform I got a tool you mean this here 750 which is existing now like the cybersecurity if you go to I say conferences unbelievable right it's like I want to sell you something you're the top dog I use shrinking suppliers down are you looking at some sort of standard API way to deal with them because you know you're obviously probably thinking about platforming and data visibility is critical what's your philosophy on how to support medieval suppliers so usually honestly the most time I really go in so for innovative technology we built in our company our so-called strategic partnership program were being it for startups and most of the time we engage we start of services or through other channels right but you get introduced and you review with a proof of concept of value the technology and we try to keep it like as a minimum value product very short time and say okay let's show what you can where your gaps are and can we get with you guys and come and get you but don't send me an email don't call me because I usually not react I have a job to do so that's most of the time where the disease were what comes all of the guys that hey I found another scissors tell me there's great technology you should look into that and what shows do you go to what events do you hang out and what are good events for you in this in the space RSA Red Hat black depth on are there certain events that you go to that you think are valuable I mean it's easily I go to the to the RSA Conference ership because actually it's very close to me as well yeah and being part being out of Santa C I recommend the b-sides actually I like the peace sign that these guys are great the pieces are great I think they are real value and then I try to a smaller circus I'd be a fun person around papers there's b-sides for folks watching is an alternative group of community industry participants they have kind of a b-side of a side like an album but it's essentially community event they do hackathons and variety of other cool things where people get together very unstructured kind of cool conference addition to bigger conferences I can't recommend desk yeah bitch thanks for coming on and sharing your insights there's pleasure there's a cube coverage here in New York City we're not escaping from the University escape conference the first multi-cloud conference in the industry we'll see how it goes if they're successful they might be back next year if not they won't be but I think multi-class here today what do you think okay great thanks for coming on I'm John Fourier thanks for watching

>>Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's the Q covering Nutanix dot. Next 2019 brought to you by Nutanix. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of dot. Next here in Copenhagen. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We are joined by Sammy Zog LaMi. He is the SVP sales Europe, Nutanix and Sylvan CU. He is the senior director systems engineer for EMEA at Newtanics. Thank you so much for coming on the cube for you for returning. And this is your first time. >>First time. Absolutely. >>Well I want to, I want to start with you. You were on the main stage this morning and you were describing being one of the first few employees in France, working out of hotel lobbies, keeping all the promotional materials in your house and people not even knowing how to pronounce Nutanix. Now here you are for you six years later. Describe, describe a little bit what it, what, what this journey has been like for you. Being at Nutanix >>for this journey. Um, you know, is a, is a successful journey obviously, uh, where we started from scratch in Eva, uh, where we built a lot of relationship with the channel. We started to have our first stories with customers and, uh, you know, the only thing we could not, uh, you know, focus was the speed of growth. And I, if you told me six years ago that we would be four and a half thousand, you know, in this conference, I wouldn't have believed it. And I think the, you know, overall journey is a, you know, an accelerated journey of development and that we have, >>yeah, Sam, Sammy, prednisone side, a little bit about, uh, you know, we sometimes call it nation building, but, uh, you know, the channel of course, a very important, uh, you know, talked about some of the, kind of, the challenges in, uh, some of the successes as to what, what has made Nutanix so successful, uh, in, in your time. Yeah. I think, uh, >>you know, the technology is for sure a big element in this that is solving business problems. But when you think about it, there's many stories of great technologies that didn't make it or didn't make it big. So I think the openness of this company from day one, uh, to work with partners to work with an ecosystem of Alliance partners. Uh, we were also very open to share how the Nutanix technology is built and is working. So there's a lot of openness around your Hasise works. It's not a black box. Uh, and we integrate with the ecosystem. So for our positioning, which is mainly initially the data center, the large environments we have to integrate into customer environment, we have to integrate with existing technologies and uh, the fact that we are open from day one and we keep that line is helping a lot in the traction. >>I want to get into that strategy in a little bit, but I want to bring you into this conversation to Sylvan and, and just to have you talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the competitive landscaping, what, what are some of the things that Nutanix needs to focus on? Because the competitors are a really edging in. We are focused to deliver >>our vision and continue to build the pieces that are still under construction there right now. And to be back on the question about the partners, the adoption also come first from the partners before their customers. And really working with them on engaging with them was the result of the success was not just signing contract enabled them, but really engaging with them at customer sites. And as soon as they see the reaction of the customer, they can be believe in it. And we scaled very fast because of them. I'm wondering, get both of your comments. Talk about the, uh, the competition for talent. Also, when you talk about Nutanix over 5,000, the channel is very strong. It makes it a little bit tougher, uh, to kind of pull those pieces in. If you're Silicon Valley, Oh, there's this startup, I want to join, things like that, but have to imagine things are a little bit different. And I'm in Mia, >>I would say. Well, competition for talent is definitely here in Emir, especially on the topics that we are tackling in the cloud, the DevOps, big data, et cetera. Um, now, you know, we are not attractive brand, uh, you know, there's a demonstrated pass of development for our employees. So I think on top of being a successful company, we have a lot of proof points of building careers. So people want to join for the fun for the success. We are also to be able to fast career. That's helps now saying that it's still not an easy task. You know, there's a, especially the volume of recruitment we are doing, uh, so we have organized ourselves very well, uh, to onboard people, enable people and maybe be in a position to hire people that don't have all the skills but have the right DNA and then we can, you know, always teach the skills. That's the way we are. >>and on a technical side, uh, all the user's previous it vendor let's say, was looking for specialists of complexity. You know, what is the behind the scene and we are in different situation, meaning that we can start small first and we talk about the project of the customer. And until this project works, we cannot move forward. We cannot obsessive. So our situation is more consultative and being a trusted advisor of what they tried to achieve and not anymore on what we tried to build our own our side. >>That's a very important point. The mindset of successful employees are the ones that are focused on the outcomes. You know, they're not here to sell a product, they focus on project and the outcome of customers. >>So how do you find that person when you are, when you're interviewing your pool of applicants? I mean that, that is, that is such an important part of the culture here, this people first attitude and really being all hands on deck if a customer has an issue. So how do you, how do you know when you're interviewing someone that, that, that they have got their, the right DNA to be here? >>Well, first we knew before they, during the interview, because we are well connected on the market and we have sources of information about how they operate on day to day. Now, of course, of hiring so many people over the years helps. And there's a lot of small details that, you know, we can notice, uh, in, uh, in our recruitment process. I think we've gotten very professional in the way we recruit. We still have a lot of refills as well from employees, which helps in terms of, uh, you know, making sure we hiring the right DNA, but we want to diversify. We don't want people coming from the same background. We're doing a pretty good job on diversity, on every topic, you know, gender, ethnicity, background, uh, this is a, you know, pretty good success. Alright, so >>semi you, you've got a new role. So it gives us a little bit of insight as to your vision. What should we should expect to see as a strategy for Nutanix and EMEA? >>I would say first, uh, you know, three months on the job and I have no intent to break anything that works. Uh, I think there's a successful recipe in anemia, which is a legacy of Chris Keller Ross. Uh, lots of good methodologies, verse of good principles of working, no intention to change that and maybe the phase after that for MEA, but for the whole company is to focus on Australia. And we see that, you know, our technology is well suited for mission critical environment is well suited for strategic projects for customers. And maybe we should become the default, uh, you know, uh, vendor that you think about when you go for mission critical projects and you know, trust formation. Uh, I think today we do a very broad set of projects with customers. Um, tomorrow I would like customers to think first about Nutanix when they think about something that is critical to their business. >>And in the same way for partners, uh, if we can move from being a vendor with high grows, great margin to a vendor that is helping them transform, you know, their business model or the way they attack different segments, you know, then we will have achieved a good phase two. What do you see as the biggest challenges facing you right now? Well, the biggest challenge is inside clearly is growth. We see that in every area, every time we grow fast, then suddenly you need to change organization processes, your principle of working and you, you need to reassess yourself and your way of doing things. Even at pesonal level. Uh, that's the biggest challenge. I think we, if we are not constantly paranoid about re re assessing that uh, growth can break a lot of quality, uh, in the relationship we have with customers but also in our velocity. >>Oh, I wonder if you could bring us inside the customers a little bit. What are some of the key roles that you find in, you know, where does Nutanix has the best engagement with and you know, strategically where would Nutanix may be a change over time as to where they're, where they're engaging with a customer. >>So now there is no more question about the fact that part of the, it will be in the cloud part will be internally, some people will go more one side or the other side because Nutanix both technology >>on both sides, we can take care of old school application and be sure that can still run in the cloud. And on this society, if you develop an application totally distributed and so on, meaning a cloud native, we can run it on a Nutanix and all the platform looks like the pubic cloud for this application. So we are the unique situation where we can, we don't need to be in the cloud or outside of the cloud, meaning that we can give a strategy with the customers or what it can do. What is the good point, what is the most difficult to achieve on both sides. And also we provide a way to package application to deploy everywhere. We have all these governance tools on top of it because we know the new way of consuming the cloud is more open bar, which you need some way of controlling the situation and we are really trusted advisor on their strategy to define what will be their it in two, three or four years. >>Okay. So sounds like not just the infrastructure owner but talking to the application owner or some of the C suite that might make some of those broader strategic decisions. >>Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Uh, the platform works, meaning that there is no more cushion on that at scale. You get all the benefits that you can see on the, on the public cloud. Now it's more the way you consume it, you organize the consumption and also you've have those, the same of urine Mount whatever is the application, uh, to, to find the, to have the best place for this application. >>What would you say your, your, your here as you said, uh, at in Copenhagen, thousands of European customers all here under one roof. What are you getting out of this? What kind of conversations are you hearing? What's most surprising to you? Just to, I mean we're, I know we're only in the beginning of day one, but what, what do you, what are you hearing right now? >>Well, we talked to a few customers already and what's a very common pattern? Most of the customers I took so far, they really accelerating on becoming a service organization. So enterprise companies, they really want to organize themselves to be cloud ops. And even though we were talking about automation before, now they really are doing it and they are actually focusing on changing the skills of their teams, their organizations and of course the technology afterwards. >>Yeah. Uh, any, any particular is on automation. Cause I think back, we've been talking about automation my entire career. I agree with you today. It is a, you know, more substantial conversation on automation. Are there any particular as either in Newtanics portfolio where some of the kind of partner tooling out there that are kicking things along? >>So, uh, we talk about automation since a long time, but most of the time that was, you have an orchestrator, it's like a Swiss knife and you can orchestrate what you want, but at the end of the day, nothing was done. We believe that the platform must be automated by design, right? And everything need to be by design. So it's a, it's the difference between the, between the previous way of thinking, automation and now where the platform is totally it. >>I believe Leber GF said autonomous is what >>we were looking for. Yes. You got to the point. If it's not autonomous, why? Why bother? Yeah. Or we had examples of customers who launched private cloud projects and they had like 8,000 Mondays to build the orchestration of the private cloud. And honestly, if you don't have a a hundred thousand VMs to run, it makes no sense. So the fact that no, it's built in and it's not a project to have automation, you know, that makes sense economically as well. Great. Well semi and see you. Thank you so much for coming on the cube. It's a pleasure having you later, Rebecca. Thanks a lot. Thank you. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Mittleman. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of.next.

>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering Cook Con Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm student of my co host is Corey Quinn and happy to welcome back to the program. Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native and happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright. So, Corey, I got really excited when he saw this Because server lists, uh, is something that, you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, Kay native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging the solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server. Listen, you know, we understand that world, they're spectrums, and there's overlap. So maybe is that is a set up. You know what is the service. Working groups, you know, Charter, Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use? It went out through it. Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen staff in general. What should they do? Do next and basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services, when it's appropriate >> stuff like that >> to what should wait. I'm sorry I'm getting somebody thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And, third, >> what should we >> do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability portability, stuff like that. And one of the low hang your food so they identified was, Well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we can do and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cloud events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said. Specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and run it. I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that point is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers things like event base, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a one of the key. Thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think Canada does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do If you want to think of it as a pass. Go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything else. >> So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says, No, you gotta know about networks, Congress on values, that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could. This stuff that you deploy on K native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is a first. It was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience, time or on Lee runs in certain run times, or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed, But again, it's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now. Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the service features it offers up, became these simplified incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you can deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seemed very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about sort of the merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said, when to use one versus the other. And I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going the future. I don't know the honest They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of is what already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick technology gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most part, I think it was really more about Kenya than anything else yesterday. >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to seriously with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also so the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The solution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your >> mind? Um, so this is hardly the answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is. I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It was good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around, they would say, You know when to use viens roses containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life would be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured >> thank you Usual response back. Teo >> I'LL give you the tough one. The critical guy had in Seattle when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws lambda, and number two is probably as your functions and as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated since then. I talked a little startup called I Believe his Trigger Mash that that has made some connections between Lambda on K Native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary. Tightly integrated and leveraging the carbonates features the way Kay native is doing, and I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it. I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there and his heart feel the choose and what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure like communities is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, obviously. >> Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff, obviously, through the eventing side of a native. We do. But from a serving perspective, I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have to be >> honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> about >> fifteen live from basically about a room that is a common club native con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The >> Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm stupid in my co host is Corey Quinn and having a welcome back to the program, Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native. And he happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright, So Corey got really excited when he saw this because server Lis is something that you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, k native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging a solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server lists. And, you know, we understand that world. They're spectrums and there's overlap. So maybe as that is a set up, you know, What is the surveillance working groups? You know, Charter. Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use that went out through it? Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen stuff in general. What do they do next? And basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services when it's appropriate stuff like that. Two. What should wait? I'm sorry I'm getting somebody Thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And third, what should we do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability, portability stuff like that and one of the low hang your food should be identified was, well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we could do, and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cod events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and running, I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that viewpoint is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers, things like event based, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a the monkey thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think he does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do. If you want to think of it as a pass, go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything >> else. So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says No, you gotta know about Network Sing Gris on values that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could stuff that you deploy on. K Native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is at first it was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience time or it only runs in certain run times. Or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air Corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial. I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed. But again, that's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now, Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the serval ISS features it offers up, became these simplified, incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you could deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seem very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about that sort of merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said when you use one verse of the other and I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going in the future. I don't know. Be honest. They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of years would already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick the technology. It gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most parts, I think it was really more about Kaneda than anything else. Yesterday, >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to Syria to see with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The absolution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your mind? >> Um, >> so this is hardly an answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It is good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around. They would say, You know when to use BMS vs Containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life will be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured with >> thank you. That's the usual response back. So don't >> go. I'Ll give you the tough one critical guy had in Seattle. Okay, when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws Lambda, and number two is probably as your functions. And as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated. Since then, I talk to a little startup called Believers Trigger Mash, that that has made some connections between Lambda Ah, and a native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary, tightly integrated and leveraging the community's features the way Kay Native is doing. And I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it? I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there, and it's hard for people to choose. And what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure? Like Who Burnett is is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, >> obviously. Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff. Obviously, through the eventing side of a native we do went from a serving perspective. I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have >> to be honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one. Really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the you covering your red hat. Some twenty nineteen >> rots. >> You buy bread >> hat, >> and we'LL go back here on the Cube as we continue our coverage here. Red Hat Summit day. One of three days of Walter Wall coverage coming to you exclusively here on the Q. I'm John Walls was too Millman. Thank you for joining us. And we're now joined by a couple of gentlemen. Guess the dynamic duo of the container World it at Red Hat. Scott McCarty is the principal product manager of Containers. That open shift and Forell. Scott. Good to see you, sir. >> You could see it >> and been. Bree are Who's the principal product? Manager of Containers and Koro s, Of course. Also it Red hat Been. Thank you for joining us. First off, just your thought about show. Obviously, there's a lot of educational programming going on up down, big crowds, a lot of buzz. Good activity day one, at least from our perspective. How are you guys seeing this so far? >> I love it. I mean, it's been great so far. We just had us. I just had a session, just got out of it. was completely full of people trying to get in that were lined up against a wall. So it's been very exciting so far. >> Yeah. Ben. So it's one of >> my favorite times of the year, right? It's so much energy. Everybody comes with the exchange of ideas, just feedback and everything is one of my favorites. >> Oh, good. Right now s o l e made available publicly today for the first time. We talked about that a lot so far on the program, I'd like to hear from >> your side of the fence. Then what does that mean to you in terms of the container world and the impact that you, you know, from here going forward, you've got a whole new world of concern, I would think Scott. >> Yeah. I mean, with the relic, it's it's >> exciting because we're releasing, uh, you know, a lot of new tools around containers, >> a ton of new operational, you know, management capabilities. I mean, it's just it's an exciting release, Ben. It's a It's a big step forward, right? Every single release is a big deal, and we look at the container space. It's evolved a lot in the past for five years right when we came out. Seven. So technology's matured, Really, it's Ah, it's a smooth, easy experience to get to the release. And if lots going into it a lot, >> Yeah, so, Scott, It's funny. I think back. Turn back. Five years ago, we had a lot of jokes about doctors. You mean the pants? Because container ization and, you know, limits, containers and everything. That was something most people hadn't heard about here. Twenty nineteen, You said, There's, you know, crowds trying to get in the door. And it's not what but there really digging in and understand the tools we give a little bit of. You know what? What's what's with the excitement these days? Where are the customers? And you know what? What do you digging into >> with them? Yeah, well ah, >> funny example. So I asked I asked this last session, You know, raise your hand if you've used containers. If you just even fired up a container before and everyone raise your hand. And now, five years ago, that was, like one person >> and then even last you worked for Google. Yeah. Even last >> year that it was still maybe forty percent of the people, and now it's one hundred percent when they come to a session. So I mean, it's it is it is definitely changed, a tremendous amount. And now it's about So I joked, You know, five years ago is about using a chef knife, you know, just like you cut everything with it, right? You cut it. Vegetables, meat, whatever. And there was like one thing, and you just figured out Doctor and Cooper names was even on the radar Yet now it's about refining all the tools and getting to a place where, like, it's really getting excited, cause now we have special paring knives and chef knife and, you know, hibachi, knife and all these different, more specialized >> tools. So it's getting saying >> You think it's easy to >> adopt now to write, because years ago everyone was hedging their bets on you know what orchestration am I going to use? What piece? Um, I'm gonna build my stack. We have >> now. It's much, much clear, well defined. You know, Cooper Netease is dominant factor, right? Mean, open shift is huge, huge growth for us in that space. So I mean, it's it's it's a lot easier for customers to get in that game now than it was, you know? Yeah, just a couple years ago. Yeah, just a couple years ago. All right, so let's let's sticking out security a little bit because that was one of the big question marks in the early days. And you know something? We talk about it all the shows. It's it's definitely a focus of the real late launch. So where were the container world today and anything new or nuance that the audience should understand? I think on the security side you've got I have three or four big points there. One is the container tools of worshipping. Today they basically inherit the full Lennox security model. Right? So no longer do you have ah, privilege socket. That is, I kind of that weak factor, if you will, that's gone on. Really? So that's a big That's a big win right there. Beyond that, we've got a new crystal policies. You can set a central policy for the O. S. And that works in the containers well, so of you and enforce a particular kind of floor, if you will, of crypto. You could do that with relate for the host way and images as well. That's a that's a big part of it. And then we also have new tools that you can build smaller containers because how did the security is what is in my container? So if you're putting less less packages and content in that image, that's a much smaller Becker as well. Soon. >> Yeah. So, um, from from a security perspective, too, you know, you know the fact that now we have, um, kind of we've got a set of tools now that we can do experiments with things like ruthless, for example. You know, we're tech preview release of ruthless contract, so historically have always ran them, you know, as route. That's just how it works. I mean, we kind of figured it out one way and did it, and it was cool. And then at a certain point, we went all right, we need these other use cases where want developers to build to do it. For example, I just talked to a customer that it has four two hundred. I'm sorry, developers that are all running instances on their laptops PM's with pod man and build a running and, you know, using these tools to actually build containers, and they want to do ruthless bad. They want to do it in all their essentially all their environment, so that people are really hungry for a lot of these security features that we're working on now and relate. And it's something that we're releasing even as a vato. >> How did the capabilities changed in terms of relate now and what you have to provide the support? So what's transformed? And then what will be the need in order to build on that toe work on that and to make it more secure stables on so >> far? Well, I think I think you kind of have to dig into, like, a selection of what tools we decided to go in. Relate you'LL see that it's pod man. Build a scope. Here are the three main lower level tools that we have, and those tools are built serving a Unix mindset where it's like you can pipe things together and do things and use them collaboratively together to go remotely inspect images, pull them, build them from scratch, you know, run them locally, not as roots run them as a non route, contains things like that way or not at, you know, we're not releasing doctrine. Relate. And so so the transition. There is probably the biggest transition for users. Kind of realizing. Okay, we're going kind of broken this apart into three little or tools that we can then use Todd Man being the main one you go to. And then and then it's got a command line that's very similar. And so it's very easy, tio kind of transition over. But then you start to again kind of my my chef knife reference. You realize once you transition from, say, Dr Pod man, you kind of that's your chef knife. You kind of know what? How to start doing things that way. But then you start to get more refined and start to dig deeper into, you know, like, you know, into building scope. You essentially teacher. Yeah. >> You're good there. Yeah. I don't know. All right. Whatever he says. Scott >> Universal base image. Something we've talked a little bit about to tell us how that this is going to impact, you know, talk about everybody building things on their laptop. Seems like that's an extension of where this fits. Help help us understand? >> Yeah, I can't hide my enthusiasm. One how excited I am by Eva, and I will admit Ivory had a couple people come to me and say, This is the most exciting thing for me at Summit period And I think that's interesting because it's not actually something new and that, you would say from a technology perspective, how exciting is that? I don't know, but like it allows a set of collaboration that we've never been able to like, really, really do with a well base image historically, and I think the real base image is the highest quality basement temperament out there. But the problem is, even if you had something really simple, like so you had one university and that created some kind of science experiment in a container, and then they want to push that out to a public registry, then pull it down a different university and share it. They couldn't do that under the terms of the rail base image. So that was that. Was that create a little bit of friction with the FBI? Now that's completely gone. You can now run it anywhere you want, distribute anywhere you want, just the distribution alone is exciting. It and the fact that when you >> run it on rail, you >> build on rail, run on relics completely supported Israel. But you can now push it out to a public registry and let it sit out there and other people can >> use it in an experiment. So is the, you know, coming together of container ization in that distribution is that would kind of is really new with this, as opposed to the ways that I used to be able to share lennox images in the past. >> Well, all I think I think the challenge was you'd have some people that would want to do something. They want to build a distributed anywhere they want have that freedom. But they still wanted the quality of the rail basement. Now that created friction, right? So then they'd have to make an unnatural choice between, like, a fedora or I use, you know, well, maybe how you sent to less and your lying and none of those have all the things that I want, right? It was like a card game trying to get all the components that you want. You want sport, ability of Raoul. You want the security of the performance center center. But you couldn't. You couldn't distribute anywhere, so that created friction where you make on natural choices on basement. Now you be. I just The name implies that universal use it for anything you want. >> Same for communities to write because they don't want to make one that could freely distribute and then another like supported variant. They have more to maintain its more cycles and everything so simple. Find that it is a big deal. Yeah, >> and migration between base images is a linen migration, so it's frustrating to do. You don't want to do it. You want to build on one thing. And then I thought I distribute that thing anywhere. Well, then it's >> interesting, you know, go back a few years. There was this big movement to do, like just enough OS. How do I slim down the core? Os was I don't need everything that you know Realm necessarily does. So have we gotten over that? And we now gotten with you know, the things like you be I down to like a nice unit that's easily terrible and distributed. It's a good question. It's a topic that we'LL never go away. I don't think we're still. It's just changing its form, right? It still exists on the host. It's still exists in images. It's still exist with unit colonels and everything. I >> think where we >> are today. That was a really good spot, right? We've got several footprints of FBI. If there's several footprints of Rehl, including well, Core OS, which is like bedded version of rail into open shift right for a small form factor container host. So where we are today is very strong, but it's going to continue to evolve and get better. So, yeah, >> and we I mean, we look at the future and we're we're looking at ways toe. Make it even smaller, you know, you're always looking at, but yeah, Ben, mention there's three footprints of you B i today. There's a minimal image. There's a standard image, and then there's even a little bit bigger images allows you run multiple services, but you know that's the selection today. But in the future, we're looking at making the minimal one more minimal. Were even looking at, you know, making the standard one more minimal. >> Yeah, we're not done. Yeah, we're not done. You're never done. I guess the last thing I have on this, you know, multi cloud is such you know where customers are today. You know, you're gonna have the CEO Microsoft up on stage today. Two years ago, when I was here, it was the partnership between Red had an eight of us was all the discussion. I spoke to the Red Hat team, the Cloud show recently. So how does the tooling that you have fit in tow all the clouds discussion that I have when I talked to users? You know, one of the biggest lock ins they have is the skill set and the understanding of different tools and knowledge. And so you know, where we standardize and where do we still have work to do in this space? That's a big question. So yeah, I guess way addressing a multiple levels right at the core. The center Israel. Right. So well ate right now today on all those cloud platforms that you just name, right. So same say maybe I level guarantee that ten years hard work everything. It's it's everywhere. It's pervasive today. Level up, right. You've got the container images and stuff same story. They're Goa level. You've got open shift that is pervasive everywhere. And now we're doing really cool things. And Cooper Net. He's like a machine, a p I and all these other things toe actually control those individual cloud infrastructures which abstracts all of the customers ations per for food for him, which is >> powerful. So I think, for me was the most exciting things is the open shift for paradigm shift that shift from managing individual nodes to ship to managing the cluster as a computer, which we've said for what, twenty years? The sun? I think you know the cluster is the computer, you know? But we're really there today. Like we have a single E p I. Ben mention the machine, the machine, a PR machine configure operator. There's there's essentially automation built into the chip platform now that allows you to appoint the same on any cloud. So eight of us azure, you know, open stack, even on VM, where even on, you know, even in liver gonna look a laptop. There's a way to deploy it in the identical, you know, in an identical configuration. To me, that's exciting, because now I have one set of things I could learn. And then again in the standard red hat way. If you feel locked in, you can go use a Okay, Daddy, you can use the upstream. So you're never locked into our product, Which that's something. Get a lot with Kat drives, right? Like if you're locked in there, you're you're locked in there. There's no there's no, you know, open source version of that to get out of that. >> So you've talked about growth opportunities? You said, No, we're not done yet. Making the joke about your own work. You've talked about a twenty year evolution, you know, Just refer to that. And if you could look, you know, whether it's three, four, five, whatever years down the road, where's the big leap? Where's that have to come? Where do you think it's going to come in terms of the capabilities that you want to work on and what you want to be able to deliver from where you are right? Now >> get my crystal ball. Yeah. >> Yeah, Well, I think you've got one. Yeah. Then I have a lot of confidence in you, but if you had to say okay, this is this is atleast where we're gonna be. We're gonna have to spend a lot of our time because this this is the area that we think I think needs most attention. A >> couple of things, right? People only scale so much. So automation is an area that's bulletproof going forward, and it's going to evolve and take many forms. Right now, our big push has been on the operator space and obviously technologies like answerable that's going to continue to evolve and make make people scale better. That's probably one of the biggest ones. And I >> think that's one of the biggest ones. I think I think for me, probably where my mind wanders, is around partners and building that ecosystem in the open ship space similar to what you see in the realm. Because system today I think three, four years from now you're going to see it really exploded at ABC that I already see it exploding. But by then you'LL see it maturing and you'LL really see. I think if you look at the operator paradigm, I'm very excited by that because it's kind of like the Emma science dollar that Microsoft invented. You know that kind of made that that ubiquitous that install experience. Except that operators make it you because they install and managed a too. So I think, like, kind of to his point of, like making that the install really simple and then the operation of it. Over time, I think you're going to see a lot of I think. I think you couldn't fill a room and ask him, Like what I in fact, I did. I asked what an operator was, you know, and they they weren't super aware of it yet. But I think in the next five years, that will become the big with this way of just installing software. >> All right, well, we're going to check back in five. We'LL see how it turns out and been by then. Bring that crystal ball back with wood. Ok, I'll do a good deal. Thanks, gentlemen. Thanks for the time you haven't put on the Cuba as we continue our coverage here. Red Hat Summit. We're in Boston back with more right after this

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are here in Bahrain for exclusive coverage for AWS Summit, part of Amazon's new region being launched here in the Middle East. I'm John Furrier, your host, we have two great guests from C5 Accelerator in Washington D.C., now kicking it out in Bahrain. Hadyah Fathalla, executive director C5 Accelerate and Eva Dimitriadis, good to see you again. >> Thank you. >> Chief operating officer. >> Great to be here. >> Guys, congratulations. Bahrain, D.C. >> The world. >> The world, it's global. >> Thank you, yeah. >> C5 Global. >> It's great to be here. >> It's an exciting time. I mean, I got to ask you Eva, because we had previously met, talked about interviews in D.C. Smart people that known Amazon, because Teresa and Andy Jassy and Jeff Bezos always say, "We're going to be misunderstood for a while." Come on, that's not true. (laughing) A region in this area is going to explode the entrepreneurial scene. What's your take? >> I think that's absolutely true. As we see today at the Summit, there's just such a growing number of entrepreneurs and people who are excited to embrace digital innovation. Three years ago I think the story would have been different but ever since we set up the accelerator here, which was the first once in Bahrain, we've just seen an explosion of interest and not just from Bahrain but from around the GCC. Even start ups from abroad coming and setting up here as their Middle East practice. >> Talk about C5 for a second. Let's take a minute, to explain what you guys do. I jumped ahead a little bit because I'm excited because I just love the entrepreneurial energy. This is a really important thing happening and you guys are playing a role. Talk about C5 Accelerate, what are you guys doin'? What's your business model? Just take a minute to explain as a set up. >> So I'll let Eva talk maybe more about our global operations but really C5 Accelerate a few years ago, branch the business which was largely an investment business, including innovation business and we built Bahrain's first and one the regions, in fact, first cloud enabled accelerators and Bahrain's very first technology accelerator and we did that in partnership with the Economic Development Board, the labor firm Tamkeen and obviously with AWS. Really we benefited from the first mover advantage and the thinking around that was that as Amazon grows it's geographic footprint there is great opportunity to build on the cloud in places like the Middle East where the ecosystem is nascent and there is an amazing first mover advantage. >> Yeah. >> So when we partnered with the government to build this, we realized as we do that, we also need to contribute to building a healthy ecosystem so we built this first accelerator and we have felt-- >> When was that, by the way? >> 2016. >> Great, thank you. >> Actually September marks our two year. We've since graduated five cohorts. We're gearing up for six and we have 34 start ups under our belt. Our first cohort was an all Bahraini cohort and today we're very proud to say that actually half of the start ups that have graduated from this program that is based out of Bahrain are international start ups. That's what we're doing locally. Maybe Eva can tell you a little bit more about what we're doing on a global scale. >> You know and that's important. I want to make sure you got that out about having a bunch of start ups under your belt because when I went to the start up Bahrain session yesterday I was really, really impressed by two things. One is, just the smart energy, the smart people who like understand entrepreneurship. Either went to school for it or have learned through the scar tissue of trial and tribulations like myself. And then the entrepreneurs were there themselves. >> Mm-hmm. >> And you know a healthy entrepreneurial community when they start bitchin' and moanin', they're all chirping away, they're hungry. There's a hungry appetite for entrepreneurship here and creating but it's not fake entrepreneurship. They're really hungry. They're, where's the cash? Where's the capital? So this is really a positive sign. >> It is and I want to add something really quick before Eva jumps in, I think in the past two years what's great about a small ecosystem and the ability to pivot and build fast is you actually see the impact that you can have as an individual and as a company and as a community really on the landscape. But also regionally we've had great collaborative efforts across the GCC and in the region with partners in Saudi and Kuwait and Egypt and in Jordan so I think there's a lot of momentum that we're riding on now, and I think it's a great time to be building in the tech space. >> Well Eva, before you get to your comments. I just want to follow up on the comment around Saudi and different regions because this is a trend that has been happening for a while in Silicon Valley, as you know. People have been leaving Silicon Valley, because it's cost to live there, but people have been putting engineering teams outside of Silicon Valley. I mean, 20 years ago, you only went outside of Silicon Valley or the US to outsource which is not really product development, it's just coding. Then the trend became real engineering and product development, real chops outside. We just had Abdul on from Saudi and he was talking about his shape of his team, the psychology, the make up of the people, it's just not in Saudi Arabia. It's in China, it's all over the world. As developers are working across the world, this is a really big deal. I mean this is the new dynamic. >> Yep. >> Diverse teams, geo located, no borders, this is going to change the political landscape. It's a cultural shift. >> Definitely, I mean I think it's a while before we have here the same secret sauce that exists in Silicon Valley or that has existed there for the past decade or so. But the emphasis on training and upscaling is huge and as we've heard a number of times today, there are so many incentives to do so for free so you can actually learn to code, you can become a certified AWS coder for free in Bahrain. Which is a phenomenal advantage and step up. I mean, no one would pay me to do that in the UK. I think that, along with a number of other initiatives are really going to leap frog the development here. And in terms of what you talk about, the sort of the landscape and geo location, it goes in so many different directions now. There's no single focus so we had a Swiss company last year come and incorporate in Bahrain, and hire developers here to grow their business. It can go in so many different directions. >> Yeah, the winner take all business model is an old business model and now it's everyone's winning so it's a little bit of flattening of the wealth and the opportunities but the pie is getting bigger. >> Yes. >> I think this is the dynamic that cloud and Amazon continues to demonstrate that the Oracles, for instance, of the world, we got to win it all, lock everyone in and we got to own it. That ethos is not, that dog's not hunting, as they say. This is changing the entrepreneurial landscape and the other thing I observe is the younger generation. Leveling up is very easy to them. It's like a video game, right? Leveling up is AI, blockchain, I think one of your companies I talked to, oh we're doing a blockchain implementation. They will eat up the cloud. >> Mm. >> I mean it's going to be like, pretty fast. >> You mentioned-- >> So I'm expecting some accelerated. >> Definitely. I mean you mentioned hungry but they're also fearless. The entrepreneurs that we work with have that perfect mix of a super smart idea and an understanding of a niche sector of the market but also this resilience and recklessness that you need to embrace the opportunity. And all the scary stuff that comes with it. >> And I think adding to that, I think what's great with Amazon coming to Bahrain, with us working across the globe, it's a cross pollination that happens because whether we like it or not, like Eva said, we are not Silicon Valley yet and maybe we don't aspire to be specifically Silicon Valley and we want to build our own unique ecosystem but the lessons learned from the likes of Silicon Valley and London and Singapore and China and everywhere else in the world. >> Yeah. >> Really helps build, not just the skills required but the grit that could otherwise be absent. >> The grit's key, yeah. >> And it can engender the kind of cultural shift that's necessary so you need, so you can develop these robust and resilient qualities that are necessary for a founder. >> Well, that's a really great point. I moved from the east coast in the US to California with my first start up because that's where the action was and I can tell ya, I've been there 20 years and I've been an entrepreneur doing things ever since. And there's a fallacy of trying to emulate Silicon Valley. Every i dotted, t crossed and trying to take the playbook. There's no direct match, however, there's some consistencies in there. That's grit, creativity, openness, capital markets and community and this is something that you guys kind of have in place. And then adapting that to your culture. Now I will say that my impression here is it feels a little bit Silicon Valley because it's a little bit more open and loose. People like to go fast. Fast and loose is the Silicon Valley way. Dubai's a little bit more like New York to me. So I can feel more, valley-like here. I'm not saying that Dubai's bad, I'm just saying it's different cultures. Bigger, its more ... >> There's definitely a lot of agility here. I think one of the other advantages which leads back into what C5 is as a whole, we're primarily an investment business. We have a venture capital fund based in the UK. What we're really looking for is investible, scalable business models where we're de risking the cost of capital with cloud computing because that is how ultimately these start ups scale. Another benefit that we really see in this market is value for money. If you're a start up in Silicon Valley and you get to the stage that some of our start ups get to when they finish their program, your valuation is pretty much always triple what we would see here, so valuation's a very sensitive subject. Our start ups hate talking about it. We structure our deals with them in a way that generally avoids having a valuation. >> It's very easy to do business here. You just keep on increasing the valuation, all the stars will come dropping to your doorstep. >> It's a nuanced area. >> Yeah. >> But that being said, you can get really good value for money businesses but more importantly you're investing in the teams and the entrepreneurs and there's no shortage of that here. >> Let's talk about the ecosystem here and then let's talk about the women in tech because one of the things that blew me away yesterday was Teresa Carlson held a women breakfast and for the first time I got kicked off a table because they wanted to make room for the workshop. >> Sorry about that. (laughing) >> I'm like, wait a minute. This is not an inclusive environment. Sorry, no, we need the table. Okay, I know, I was happy to tap out. But I wasn't expecting that and the energy and the, just really, again, this event, they had to lock the doors for the keynote so there's really a big interest across the board. Talk about the ecosystem and then the women in tech situation. >> So I think the ecosystem is an interesting question because, I mean, we work very collaboratively. Like I said, even though this initiative largely was kind of envisioned by the government and mainly by the Economic Development Board and I'm sure you got a chance to speak to Khalid Humaidan, he might have given you a bit of an idea of how this started off but really the EBD threw this idea of start up Bahrain to the community and said, "Look, you guys lead on it." And it took a little bit of time for the community to figure out what that really means and what it's going to look like but it really made the community and ourselves also think pragmatically about what we want this ecosystem to look like. So even though it's not as mature, like I said, as other ecosystems further away and especially in the west, it is coming together very nicely because it's coming together as a collaborative effort. You see a very good continuous consultative work between private sector, public sector, the start ups and then the other stakeholders, including ourselves, and academia. We still have a long way to go, I think specially in areas and this is something that I always emphasize, is to shift the culture you really need to start at a much younger age so at schools, at universities. We engage with them and are keen to do more on that front but I think we are laying the foundation for what I hope in the next five, 10 years will be a pretty competitive entrepreneurial and start up-- >> It might be sooner. >> Hopefully sooner. >> Yeah. >> I think we have the right recipe now to build a robust ecosystem. >> Yeah, I can say I can attest to that after what I saw yesterday. Your thoughts? >> Yeah I mean our team in Bahrain is 100% Bahraini. I'm based in London, but Hadyah here leads a phenomenal team who are all Bahraini citizens. Being the island that it is, we know everybody so Hadyah's done an excellent job of engaging with everyone from schools to universities to post grads to public sector, private sector. So really all the stakeholders in the ecosystem are engaged and everyone from the oil and gas industry to the finance sphere are thinking about how innovation can advance their businesses so that they don't get left behind at the train station. >> Yeah. >> It's really top of mind and top of agenda which is a very invigorating scenario. I think, going back to some of the initiatives, from bankruptcy laws to having a fintech bay with the Central Bank of Bahrain, there's just so much, like they're constantly pushing the envelope to make this a friendly environment for entrepreneurs to come and do business. >> And I want to add one thing. There's always this question of, does government have a role to drive innovation and create an ecosystem? >> They do. >> I think Bahrain is a good example for others in the region and even beyond to say actually government does have an important role. >> They do. >> If you look at Bahrain, it's government that has been very flexible and nimble in terms of moving to accommodate. Whether it's the new bankruptcy laws or allowing for the fintech sandbox and a cloud first policy and shaping the start up Bahrain. The government has taken the lead on a lot of these initiatives so it's a good example of how there can be a top down approach to building an entrepreneurial landscape but also where the bottom needs to come and meet the top so I think Bahrain a good example. >> Just to reiterate, my observation is that they know how to get things going and sponsor but they're also listening and self aware and even on theCUBE here, we heard comments like, we'll get out of the way. >> Mm-hmm. >> Now that's the difference between good judgment. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know? And, no, no I funded you, I own you, I mean I've seen that in the public sector or, we're going to fund you as an NGO and then I kind of own you so come to my receptions and be my show horse-- >> Mascot. >> Show all of my people how good I am, donating money. So there's a little bit of a balance between enabling. >> Yep. >> But at the end of the day, this is going to be a fast pace and that's where I think the speed, knowing when to get out of the way and letting the community go. I mean, people like speed here. Cars are driving fast, you got a Formula 1 race track up at 14 months. >> They like speed but sometimes things are surprisingly slow. >> Yes. >> So it's incredible that we are where we are. You asked about women in tech and I think there's something there that we're really proud of. C5 globally, 43% of the start up founders that we've supported through our accelerators are women. In terms of diversity, we're thrilled about that statistic. We'd like it be 50%. >> Yep. >> And I think that the Middle East, we're seeing so much hunger from women entrepreneurs and women who want to learn to code to be founders and we want to do everything in our power to enable that. >> Computer science degrees coming out of the university? >> Absolutely. Hadyah here had this fantastic idea a year ago to found what we call C5 Nebula. I'll let Hadyah talk about why we came up with that name and how it relates to our business but this is now a new stream of our business which really it's a membership platform where all women globally are invited to join and we provide education, upscaling, jogs, connectivity, mentorships and through this network we are allowing a complete globalization of the talent and skills that we have. >> Yeah. >> So you can be a student in D.C. wanting to come and volunteer to work for a company here and we will make that match happen. I think it's a very exciting phase for us and we've seen so much demand for this program. Maybe Hadyah can talk about why we came up with this name? >> Yeah, so like Eva said, we, I'm Bahraini, we've always had, we've been lucky to have been pioneering and have work very closely men and have had really equal opportunity but in industries like tech, globally, women's representation is lower than that of men and there are areas where there's still work to be done. >> A lot of work to be done, yeah. >> So last year, actually, with the first AWS Summit, when Teresa was out here, we figured we do a women in tech breakfast. When we were curating that guest list we couldn't find that many women and we didn't know if wasn't that we didn't know them or that they didn't exist and we realized really we need to put together something to bring all the women together and work more closely so we built Nebula, really to, like Eva said, do three things and a little more. One is the connectivity side of things and then the upscaling but also to raise awareness and appreciation. >> What is Nebula? >> What is? >> What is Nebula? >> So Nebula, scientifically it's an astrological, astronomical phenomenon-- >> But it's your network group, is that what it's called? >> It's a platform. >> Okay. >> So it's actually been officially launched three weeks ago, you can go online and visit it and it's a platform that allows you to become a member of Nebula and gives you access to mentorship, to opportunities to upscale and train but also to raise awareness and appreciation for the amazing opportunities for women in the tech space. >> Is there a URL? >> There is a URL, it's-- >> We've been debating what is is today. (laughing) >> It's www.c5nebula.com. >> Okay, I'll put it up, publish it with the video. >> And what it means, it's the Latin word for cloud and it's where stars are born. >> Yeah. It's also, what's important, is it's a compilation of a bunch of different clouds and electrons and it's a mess, it's a bit of a mess but it's a lot of forces working together and I guess the moral of the story is, we can create stars in the space but we all have to work together and it all has to come together to-- >> And it's powerful when you work together. >> Only 10% of VC funding worldwide goes to women founder companies and 1% of that goes to women of color so there's some staggering statistics there. Globally, this is not a Middle East problem, this is globally a real big area of disparity that we're trying to help address. >> Well you guys know our door's open in California and Boston, and certainly the women in tech, we got a big network, we can merge them into the Nebula connect our networks. >> We would love that. >> We would love that. >> We're open and anything you guys have to share with us we love co-creating with the communities, that's what we do at theCUBE. Thanks for coming on and sharing. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, John. It's been a pleasure. >> You got a great mission. Big supporter. C5 Accelerate, they're the ones on the ground, making things happen, gettin' those sparks of entrepreneurship and helping them capture them into one community, create some energy and some momentum and help people create value and also capture the value, that's what it's all about here. You got Amazon Web Services' region in the Middle East, CUBE coverage continues after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We're at Data Privacy Day 2018, I still can't believe it's 2018, in downtown San Francisco, at LinkedIn's headquarters, the new headquarters, it's a beautiful building just down the road from the sales force building, from the new Moscone that's being done, there's a lot of exciting things going on in San Francisco, but that's not what we're here to talk about. We're here to talk about data privacy, and we're excited to have a return visit from last year's Cube alumni, she's Eva Velasquez, president and CEO, Identity Theft Resource Center. Great to see you again. >> Thank you for having me back. >> Absolutely, so it's been a year, what's been going on in the last year in your world? >> Well, you know, identity theft hasn't gone away >> Shoot. >> And data-- >> I thought you told me it was last time. >> I know, I wish, and in fact, unfortunately we just released our data breach information, and there was a tremendous growth. It was a little over 1000, previous year, and over 1500 data breaches... in 2017. >> We're almost immune, they're like every day. And it used to be like big news. Now it's like, not only was Yahoo breached at some level, which we heard about a while ago, but then we hear they were actually breached like 100%. >> There is some fatigue, but I can tell you that it's not as pervasive as you might think. Our call center had such a tremendous spike in calls during the Equifax breach. It was the largest number of calls we'd had in a month, since we'd been measuring our call volume. So people were still very, very concerned. But a lot of us who are in this space are feeling, I think we may be feeling the fatigue more than your average consumer out there. Because for a lot of folks, this is really the first exposure to it. We're still having a lot of first exposures to a lot of these issues. >> So the Equifax one is interesting, because most people don't have a direct relationship with Equifax, I don't think. I'm not a direct paying customer, I did not choose to do business with them. But as one of the two or three main reporting agencies, right, they've got data on everybody for their customers who are the banks, financial institutions. So how does that relationship get managed? >> Oh my gosh, there's so much meat there. There's so much meat there. Okay, so, while it feels like you don't have a direct relationship with the credit reporting agencies, you actually do, you get a benefit from the services that they're providing to you. And every time you get a loan, I mean this is a great conversation for Data Privacy Day. Because when you get a loan, get a credit card, and you sign those terms and conditions, guess what? >> They're in there? >> You are giving that retailer, that lender, the authority to send that information over to the credit reporting agencies. And let's not forget that the intention of forming the credit reporting agencies was for better lending practices, so that your creditworthiness was not determined by things like your gender, your race, your religion, and those types of really, I won't say arbitrary, but just not pertinent factors. Now your creditworthiness is determined by your past history of, do you pay your bills? What is your income, do you have the ability to pay? So it started with a good, very good purpose in mind, and we definitely bought into that as a society. And I don't want to sound like I'm defending the credit reporting agencies and all of their behavior out there, because I do think there are some changes that need to be made, but we do get a benefit from the credit reporting agencies, like instant credit, much faster turnaround when we need those financial tools. I mean, that's just the reality of it. >> Right, right. So, who is the person that's then... been breached, I'm trying to think of the right word of the relationship between those who've had their data hacked from the person who was hacked. If it's this kind of indirect third party relationship through an authorization through the credit card company. >> No, the, Equifax is absolutely responsible. >> So who would be the litigant, just maybe that's the word that's coming to me in terms of feeling the pain, is it me as the holder of the Bank of America Mastercard? Is it Bank of America as the issuer of the Mastercard? Or is it Mastercard, in terms of retribution back to Equifax? >> Well you know, I can't really comment on who actually would have the strongest legal liability, but what I can say is, this is the same thing I say when I talk to banks about identity theft victims. There's some discussion about, well, no, it's the bank that's the victim in existing account identity theft, because they're the ones that are absorbing the financial losses. Not the person whose data it belongs to. Yet the person who owns that data, it's their identity credentials that have been compromised. They are dealing with issues as well, above and beyond just the financial compromise. They have to deal with cleaning up other messes and other records, and there's time spent on the phone, so it's not mutually exclusive. They're both victims of this situation. And with data breaches, often the breached entity, again, I hate to sound like an apologist, but I am keeping this real. A breached entity, when they're hacked, they are a victim, a hacker has committed that crime and gone into their systems. Yes, they have a responsibility to make those security systems as robust as possible, but the person whose identity credentials those are, they are the victim. Any entity or institution, if it's payment card data that's compromised, and a financial services institution has to replace that data, guess what, they're a victim too. That's what makes this issue and this crime so terrible, is that it has these tentacles that reach down and touch more than one person for each incident. >> Right. And then there's a whole 'nother level, which we talked about before we got started that we want to dig into, and that's children. Recently, a little roar was raised with these IOT connected toys. And just a big, giant privacy hole, into your kid's bedroom. With eyes and ears and everything else. So wonder if you've got some specific thoughts on how that landscape is evolving. >> Well, we have to think about the data that we're creating. That does comprise our identity. And when we start talking about these toys and other... internet connected, IOT devices that we're putting in our children's bedroom, it actually does make the advocacy part of me, it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Because the more data that we create, the more that it's vulnerable, the more that it's used to comprise our identity, and we have a big enough problem with child identity theft just now, right now as it stands, without adding the rest of these challenges. Child and synthetic identity theft are a huge problem, and that's where a specific Social Security number is submitted and has a credit profile built around it, when it can either be completely made up, or it belongs to a child. And so you have a four year old whose Social Security number is now having a credit profile built around it. Obviously they're not, so the thieves are not submitting this belongs to a four year old, it would not be issued credit. So they're saying it's a, you know, 23 year old-- >> But they're grabbing the number. >> They're grabbing the number, they're using the name, they build this credit profile, and the biggest problem is we really haven't modernized how we're authenticating this information and this data. I think it's interesting and fitting that we're talking about this on Data Privacy Day, because the solution here is actually to share data. It's to share it more. And that's an important part of this whole conversation. We need to be smart about how we share our data. So yes, please, have a thoughtful conversation with yourself and with your family about what are the types of data that you want to share and keep, and what do you want to keep private, but then culturally we need to look at smart ways to open up some data sharing, particularly for these legitimate uses, for fraud detection and prevention. >> Okay, so you said way too much there, 'cause there's like 87 followup questions in my head. (Eva laughs) So we'll step back a couple, so is that synthetic identity, then? Is that what you meant when you said a synthetic identity problem, where it's the Social Security number of a four year old that's then used to construct this, I mean, it's the four year old's Social Security number, but a person that doesn't really exist? >> Yes, all child identity theft is synthetic identity theft, but not all synthetic identity theft is child identity theft. Sometimes it can just be that the number's been made up. It doesn't actually belong to anyone. Now, eventually maybe it will. We are hearing from more and more parents, I'm not going to say this is happening all the time, but I'm starting to hear it a little bit more often, where the Social Security number is being issued to their child, they go to file their taxes, so this child is less than a year old, and they are finding out that that number has a credit history associated with it. That was associated years ago. >> So somebody just generated the number. >> Just made it up. >> So are we ready to be done with Social Security numbers? I mean, for God's sake, I've read numerous things, like the nine-digit number that's printed on a little piece of paper is not protectable, period. And I've even had a case where they say, bring your little paper card that they gave you at the hospital, and I won't tell you what year that was, a long time ago. I'm like, I mean come on, it's 2018. Should that still be the anchor-- >> You super read my mind. >> Data point that it is? >> It was like I was putting that question in your head. >> Oh, it just kills me. >> I've actually been talking quite a bit about that, and it's not that we need to get, quote unquote, get rid of Social Security numbers. Okay, Social Security numbers were developed as an identifier, because we have, you can have John Smith with the same date of birth, and how do we know which one of those 50,000 John Smiths is the one we're looking for? So that unique identifier, it has value. And we should keep that. It's not a good authenticator, it is not a secret. It's not something that I should pretend only I know-- >> Right, I write it on my check when I send my tax return in. Write your number on the check! Oh, that's brilliant. >> Right, right. So it's not, we shouldn't pretend that this is, I'm going to, you, business that doesn't know me, and wants to make sure I am me, in this first initial relationship or interaction that we're having, that's not a good authenticator. That's where we need to come up with a better system. And it probably has to do with layers, and more layers, and it means that it won't be as frictionless for consumers, but I'm really challenging, this is one of our big challenges for 2018, we want to flip that security versus convenience conundrum on its ear and say, no, I really want to challenge consumers to say... I'm happier that I had to jump through those hoops. I feel safer, I think you're respecting my data and my privacy, and my identity more because you made it a little bit harder. And right now it's, no, I don't want to do that because it's a little too, nine seconds! I can't believe it took me nine seconds to get that done. >> Well, yeah, and we have all this technology, we've got fingerprint readers that we're carrying around in our pocket, I mean there's, we've got geolocation, you know, is this person in the place that they generally, and having 'em, there's so many things-- >> It's even more granular >> Beyond a printed piece of >> Than that-- >> paper, right? >> It's the angle at which you look at your phone when you look at it. It's the tension with which you enter your passcode, not just the passcode itself. There are all kinds of very non-invasive biometrics, for lack of a better word. We tend to think of them as just, like our face and our fingerprint, but there are a lot of other biometrics that are non-invasive and not personal. They're not private, they don't feel secret, but we can use them to authenticate ourselves. And that's the big discussion we need to be having. If I want to be smart about my privacy. >> Right. And it's interesting, on the sharing, 'cause we hear that a lot at security conferences, where one of the best defenses is that teams at competing companies, security teams, share data on breach attempts, right? Because probably the same person who tried it against you is trying it against that person, is trying it against that person. And really an effort to try to open up the dialogue at that level, as more of just an us against them versus we're competing against each other in the marketplace 'cause we both sell widgets. So are you seeing that? Is that something that people buy into, where there's a mutual benefit of sharing information to a certain level, so that we can be more armed? >> Oh, for sure, especially when you talk to the folks in the risk and fraud and identity theft mitigation and remediation space. They definitely want more data sharing. And... I'm simply saying that that's an absolutely legitimate use for sharing data. We also need to have conversations with the people who own that data, and who it belongs to, but I think you can make that argument, people get it when I say, do you really feel like the angle at which you hold your phone, is that personal? Couldn't that be helpful, that combined with 10 other data points about you, to help authenticate you? Do you feel like your personal business and life is being invaded by that piece of information? Or compare that to things like your health records. And medical conditions-- >> Mom's maiden name. >> That you're being treated for, well, wow, for sure that feels super, super personal, and I think we need to do that nuance. We need to talk about what data falls into which of these buckets, and on the bucket that isn't super personal, and feeling invasive and that I feel like I need to protect, how can I leverage that to make myself safer? >> Great. Lots of opportunity. >> I think it's there. >> Alright. Eva, thanks for taking a few minutes to stop by. It's such a multi-layered and kind of complex problem that we still feel pretty much early days at trying to solve. >> It's complicated, but we'll get there. More of this kind of dialogue gets us just that much closer. >> Alright, well thanks for taking a few minutes of your day, great to see you again. >> Thanks. >> Alright, she's Eva, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube from Data Privacy Days, San Francisco. (techno music)

>> Welcome to the latest edition of the MIT Sloan Expert Series. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Our topic today is racial bias in the sharing economy, how Uber and Lyft are failing black passengers, and what to do about it. Here to talk about that is Chris Knittel. He is a professor of Applied Economics here at MIT Sloan, and he's also the co-author of a study that shows how Uber and Lyft drivers discriminate based on a passenger's skin color. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh, it's great to be here. >> Before we begin, I want to remind our viewers that we will be taking your questions live on social media. Please use the hashtag MITSloanExpert to pose your questions on Twitter. Chris, let's get started. >> Chris: Sure. So there is a lot of research that shows how difficult it is to hail a cab, particularly for black people. Uber and Lyft were supposed to represent a more egalitarian travel option, but you didn't find that. >> That's right, so what we found in two experiments that we ran, and one in Seattle, and one in Boston, is that Uber and Lyft drivers were discriminating based on race. >> Rebecca: We've already seen, actually some evidence of racial discrimination in the sharing economy, not just with ride sharing apps. >> Sure, so there's evidence for Airbnb. And what's interesting about Airbnb actually, is that discrimination is two-sided. So not only do white renters of properties not want to rent to black rentees, but white renters do not stay at a home of a black home owner. >> Did your findings and the findings of that other research you just talked about, does it make you discouraged? >> Partly, I was an optimist. We went into this, at least I went into this hoping that we wouldn't find discrimination, but one thing that has helped, or at least shined a more positive light, is that there are ways that we can do better in this sector. >> You've talked about this study, which you undertook with colleagues from the University of Washington and Stanford, shows the power of the experiment. Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by that? >> Sure, what we did was actually run two randomized control trials. Just like you would test whether a blood pressure medication works, so you would have a control group that wouldn't get the medication, and a treatment group that would. We did the same thing where we sent out in Seattle both black and white RAs that hailed Uber and Lyft rides, and we randomized whether or not it was a black RA calling the ride or a white RA that particular time, and they all drove the same exact route at the same exact times of the day. >> So what did you find? Let's talk about first, what you found in Seattle. >> Sure, so in Seattle, we measured how long it took for a ride to be accepted, and also, how long it took, once it was accepted, for the driver to show up and pick up the passenger. And what we found is, if you're a black research assistant, that in hailing an Uber ride, it took 30 percent longer for a ride to be accepted, and also 30 percent longer for the driver to show up and pick you up. >> 30 percent seems substantial. >> Well, for the time it takes to accept the ride, we're talking seconds, but for the time it takes for a passenger to actually be picked up, it's over a minute longer. And I'll mention also for Lyft, we found a 30 percent increase in the amount of time it took to be accepted, but there was no statistically significant impact on how long it took for the driver to actually show up. >> So, the thing about the minute difference, that can be material, particularly if you're trying to catch a cab, an Uber or a Lyft for a job interview or to get to the airport. >> Yeah, this is introspection, but I always seem to be late, so even a minute can be very costly. >> I hear you, I hear you. So why do you think there was the difference between Lyft and Uber? >> What's interesting, and we learned this while we were doing the experiment, a Lyft driver sees the name of the passenger before they accept the ride, whereas an Uber driver only sees the name after they've accepted. So in order for an Uber driver to discriminate, they have to first accept the ride, and then see the name and then cancel, whereas a Lyft driver can just pass it up right away. So it turns out because of that, the Lyft platform is more easily capable of handling discrimination because it pushed it to another driver faster than the Uber platform. >> I want to come back to that, but I want to say also, that difference caused you to change the way you did the experiment in Boston. >> In Boston, a couple differences. One is that we sent out RAs with two cell phones actually. So each RA had an Uber and Lyft account under a stereotypically white sounding name, and then also an Uber and Lyft account under a stereotypically black sounding name. That was one difference, and then also, what we measured in Boston that we didn't measure in Seattle, is cancellations. So an Uber driver accepts the ride, and then cancels on the RA. >> Let's go back to the stereotypically black sounding name verses white sounding name. You're an economist, how did you determine what those names are? >> We relied on another published paper that actually looked at birth records from the 1970s in Boston, and the birth records tell you not only the name, but also the race of the baby. So they found names that actually 100 percent of the time were African American or 100 percent of the time were not African American. So we relied on those names. >> And the names were... >> So you could imagine Jamal for example, compared to Jerry. >> Alright, Ayisha and Alison. >> Chris: Sure. >> So what was your headline finding in Boston? >> In Boston, what we found is, if you were a black male calling an Uber ride, that you were canceled upon more than twice as often as if you were a white male. >> And what about Lyft? >> For Lyft, there is no cancellation effect, and that's not because there's no discrimination, it's just that they don't have to accept and then cancel the ride, they can just pass up the ride completely. It's actually a nice little experiment within the experiment, we shouldn't find an effect of names on cancellations for Lyft and in fact, we don't. >> And also, the driver network is much thicker in Boston than in Seattle. >> So in Boston, although we found this cancellation effect, we didn't find that it has a measurable impact on how long you wait. And this is somewhat speculation, but we speculate that that's because the driver network is so much more dense in Boston that, although you were canceled upon, there's so many only drivers nearby, that it doesn't lead to a longer wait time. >> How do you think what you found compares to hailing traditional cabs? We started our conversation talking about the vast body of research that shows how difficult it is for black people to hail cabs. >> Yeah, we are quick to point out that we are not at all saying that Uber and Lyft are worse than traditional, status quo system, and we want to definitely make that clear. In fact, in Seattle, we had our same research assistants stand at the busiest corners and hail cabs. What we found there is, if you were a black research assistant, the first cab passed you 80 percent of the time. But if you were a white research assistant, it only passed you 20 percent of the time. So just like the previous literature has found, we found discrimination with the status quo system as well. >> You've talked to the companies about you findings, what has the response been? >> That's been actually heartening. Both companies reached out to us very quickly, and we've had continued conversations with them, and we're actually trying to design followup studies to minimize the amount of discrimination that's occurring for both Uber and Lyft. >> But those are off the record and... >> Right, we're not talking specifics, but what I can say is that the companies understand this research and they definitely want to do better. >> In fact, the companies both have issued statements about this, the first one is from Lyft, "we are extremely proud of the positive impact..." Uber has also responded. So let's talk about solutions to this. What do you and your colleagues who undertook this research suggest? >> We've been brainstorming, we don't know for sure if we have the silver bullet, but a few things could change, for example, you could imagine Uber and Lyft getting rid of names completely. We realize that has a trade off in the sense that it's nice to know the name of the driver... >> Rebecca: Sure, you can strike up a conversation... >> It makes it more social, it makes it more personal, more peer to peer if you will. But it would eliminate the type of discrimination that we uncovered. Another potential change is to delay when you give the name to the driver, so that the driver has to commit more to the ride than he or she previously had to. And that may increase the costs of discrimination. >> So that would be changing the software? >> Right, so you could imagine now, like I said, with Lyft that you see the name right away. Maybe you wait until they're 30 seconds away from the passenger before you give them the name. >> What about the dawn of the age of autonomous vehicles? Might that have an impact? We already know that Uber is experimenting with driverless cars in Pittsburgh and Arizona. >> That would obviously solve it, so that would take the human element out of things, and it's important to point out that these are the drivers that are deciding to discriminate. So provided you didn't write the autonomous vehicle software to discriminate, you would know for sure that that car is not going to discriminate. >> What about a driver education campaign? Do you think that would make a difference? I'm reminded of an essay written by Doug Glanville, who is an ESPN commentator and former pro ball player. He writes, on talking about his experience being denied service by an Uber driver, "the driver had concluded I was a threat, "either because I was dangerous myself, "or because I would direct him to a bad neighborhood, "or give him a lower tip, either way, "given the circumstances, it was hard "to attribute his refusal to anything other than my race. "Shortly after we walked away, I saw the driver assisting "another passenger who was white." >> We all hope that information helps, and eliminates discrimination. It's certainly possible that Uber and Lyft could have a full information campaign, where they show the tip rates for different ethnicities, they show the bad ride probabilities for different ethnicities, and my hope is that once the drivers learn that there aren't differences across ethnicities, that the drivers would internalize that, and stop discriminating. >> Policy, Senator Al Franken has weighed in on this, urging Uber and Lyft to address your research. Do you think that there could be policies too? Does government have a role to play? >> Potentially, but what I'll say again is, that Uber and Lyft, I think have all the incentive in the world to fix this, and that they seem to be taking active steps to fixing this. So what could policy makers do? They can, obviously it's already outlawed. They could come down and potentially fine the companies if there's more evidence of discrimination. But I would at least allow the companies some time to internalize this research, and respond to it, and see how effective they can be. >> Many, many think tanks and government advocacy groups have weighed in too. The MIT Sloan Expert Series recently sat down with Eva Millona of the Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Coalition. She will talk about this research in the context of immigration, let's roll that clip. >> We're an advocacy organization, and we represent the interest of foreign born, and our mission is to promote and enhance immigrant and refugee integration. Anecdotally, yes, I would say that the research, and given the impressive sample of the research really leads to a sad belief that discrimination is still out there, and there is a lot that needs to be done across sectors to really address these issues. We are really privileged to live in such a fantastic commonwealth with the right leadership and all sectors together, really making our commonwealth a welcoming place. And I do want to highlight the fantastic role of our Attorney General for standing up for our values, but Massachusetts is one state, and it could be an example, but the concern is nation wide. Given a very divisive campaign, and also not just a campaign, but also, what is currently happening at the national level that the current administration is really rejecting this welcoming effort, and the values of our country as a country, who welcomes immigrants. All sectors need to be involved in an effort to really make our society a better one for everyone. And it's going to take political leadership to really set the right tone, send the right message, and really look into the integration, and the welcoming of the newcomers as an investment in our future of our nation. Uber and Lyft have an opportunity here to provide leadership and come up with promotion of policies that integrate the newcomers, or that are welcoming to the newcomers, provide education and training, and train their people. And as troubling as the result of this research are, we like to believe that this is the attitude of the drivers, but not really what the corporate represents, so we see an opportunity for the corporate to really step in and work and promote policies of integration, policies of improvement and betterment for the whole of society and provide an example. Let me say thank you to Professor Knittle for his leadership and MIT for always being a leader, and looking into these issues. But if we can go deeper into A, the size, B, the geography, but also looking into a wider range of all communities that are represented. Looking into the Latino community, looking into the Arab communities in other parts of the nation in a more rigorous, more deep and larger size of research will be very helpful in terms of promoting better policies and integration for everybody who chooses America to be their home. >> That was Eva Millona of the Massechusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition. Chris, are you confident this problem can in fact be remedied? >> I think we can do better, for sure. And I would say we need more studies like what we just preformed to see how widespread it is. We only studied two cities, we also haven't looked at all at how the driver's race impacts the discrimination. >> Now we're going to turn to you, questions from our viewers. Questions have already been coming in this morning and overnight, lots of great ones. Please use the hashtag MITSloanExpert to pose your question. The first one comes from Justin Wang, who is an MIT Sloan MBA student. He asks, "what policies can sharing economy startups "implement to reduce racial bias?" >> Well, I would say the first thing is to be aware of this. I think Uber and Lyft and Airbnb potentially were caught off guard with the amount of discrimination that was taking place. So the research that we preformed, and the research on Airbnb gives new startups a head start on designing their platforms. >> Just knowing that this is an issue. >> Knowing it's an issue, and potentially designing their platforms to think of ways to limit the amount of discrimination. >> Another question, did you look at gender bias? Do you have any indication that drivers discriminate based on gender? >> We did look at gender bias. The experiments weren't set up to necessarily nail that, but one thing that we found, for example in Boston, is that there is some evidence that women drivers were taken on longer trips. Again, both the male and the female RAs are going from the same point A to the same point B. >> Rebecca: That was a controlled part of the setting. >> That was the controlled part of the experiment. And we found evidence that women passengers were taken on longer trips and in fact, one of our RAs commented that she remembers going through the same intersection three times before she finally said something to the driver. >> And you think... So you didn't necessarily study this as part of it, but do you have any speculation, conjecture about why this was happening? >> Well, there's two potential motives. One is a financial motive that, by taking the passenger on a longer drive. They potentially get a higher fare. But I've heard anecdotal evidence that a more social motive might also be at play. For example, I have a colleague here at Sloan, who's told me that she's been asked out on dates three times while taking Uber and Lyft rides. >> So drivers taking the opportunity to flirt a little bit. >> Chris: Sure. >> Another question, can you comment on the hashtag DeleteUber campaign? This of course, is about the backlash against Uber responding that it was intending to profit from President Trump's executive order, the banning immigrants and refugees from certain countries from entering the United States. Uber maintains that its intentions were misunderstood, but it didn't stop the hashtag DeleteUber campaign. >> Yeah, I haven't followed that super closely, but to me it seems like Uber's getting a bit of a bad rap. One potential reason why they allowed Uber drivers to continue working is that, maybe they wanted to bring protesters to the airports to protest. So from that perspective, actually having Uber and Lyft still in business would be beneficial. >> Another question, did your study take into account the race of the drivers themselves? >> We actually we not allowed to. So any time you do a randomized control trial in the field like this, you have to go through a campus committee that approves or disapproves the research, and they were worried that if we collected information on the driver, that potentially, Uber and Lyft could go back into their records and find the drivers that discriminate, and then have penalties assigned to those drivers. >> So it just wouldn't be allowed to... >> At least in this first phase, yeah. They didn't want us to collect those data. >> Last question, we have time for one more. Why aren't there more experiments in the field of applies economics like this one? That's a good question. >> That's a great question, and in fact, I think many of us are trying to push experiments as much as possible. My other line of research is actually in energy and climate change research, and we've been- >> Rebecca: You like the hot topic. (lauhging) >> We've been designing a bunch of experiments to look at how information impacts consumers' choices in terms of what cars to buy, how it impacts their use of electricity at home. And experiments, randomized control trials actually started in developmental economics, where MIT has actually pioneered their use. And again, it's the best way to actually test, the most rigorous way to test whether intervention actually has an effect because you have both the controlled group and the treatment group. >> So why aren't they done more often? >> Well, it's tough, often you need to find a third party, for example, we didn't need a third party in the sense that we could just send RAs out with Uber and Lyft. But if we wanted to do anything with the drivers, for example, an information campaign, or if we wanted to change the platform at all, we would've needed Uber and Lyft to partner with us, and that can sometimes be difficult to do. And also experiments, let's be honest, are pretty expensive. >> Expensive because, you obviously weren't partnered with Uber and Lyft for this one, but... >> Right, but we had research assistants take 1500 Uber and Lyft rides, so we had to pay for each of those rides, and we also had to give them an hourly rate for their time. >> Well, Chris Knittle, thank you so much. This has been great talking to you, and you've given us a lot to think about. >> It's been fun, thanks for having me. >> And thank you for joining us on this edition of the MIT Sloan Expert Series. We hope to see you again soon.