(upbeat instrumental music) >> Welcome to the special CUBE Conversation here, in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. I'm here with David Richards the CEO of WANdisco, CUBE alumni, been on many times. WANdisco continues to make the right bets. The bet they recently made has been on cloud many years. We've covered it certainly on theCUBE. But live data is the new hot thing. Multiple clouds is turning out to be the trend. That's your friend. David, good to see you. >> Great to be back. >> Thanks for coming on. So we talk all the time about how you guys have always evolved the business and continued to stay out front in all the major waves. Now again, another good call. You've certainly bet on Cloud. We've talked about that, Open Source, Big Data, Cloud, you saw that coming, positioned for that. But now you got some great momentum and resonance with customers around live data, which is not a stretch, given what you guys have done with replication, things in the past, the core intellectual property. Give us the update. You guys have been in the news lately. >> So, thanks and I think you enumerated the past history over the past two or three years, which we like to say that we're living in dog years. Everything's happening seven times faster than it would do normally. So of course, we started out life by making a prediction that storage arrays would change. People are beginning to store, companies beginning to store structured and unstructured data, mammoth sizes that we've never seen previously. We're going to have to resort to Open Source software, running a commoditized hardware that we'd already seen the social media companies move to. Then we've seen, we began to see a problem emerge, even in that marketplace, where spike computes all the applications which were going to be heavily compute, would need to run in Cloud and Cloud environments where you have complete elastic compute at remarkably low cost. And that leads to a problem. So this iceberg kind of that we like to talk about underneath the oceans, so moving data for static archival data really simple problem. And that's not live data, that's archival data. You just FTP it from point A to point B. But if we're talking about transactional systems where 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 percent of the data set changes all of the time, that creates a humongous problem in moving data from one premises to cloud, either for hybrid cloud or between clouds for multi-cloud. And that's the precise problem that WANdisco solves. And we've seen customer attraction, recently we've just announced the deal, jointly with Microsoft Azure. Where a big healthcare company, who 12 months ago were not talking about cloud suddenly they got over that hump where security keys could be managed by themselves within the cloud, were able to move petabytes-scale data from their on-premise systems into the cloud, without any interruption to service, without any blocking. That's a trend that we're seeing our pipelines now full of companies, all trying to do that. >> It's like you hit the oil gusher with data, because the data tsunami has been there, and we've documented certainly on theCUBE, and our Research team at Wikibon, have been talking about it for years, and now you're starting to see it, and you guys are getting the benefits of it, is that people figured out that it's moving data around is expensive. And it's hard to do so you push compute to the edge, but you still got to move the data around because the key part of the latency piece of the cloud. So how do you do that at scale? So this is the thing that you guys have, and I want you to explain what it is. You guys have live data from multi-cloud. What does that mean? What is all the hubbub about? What's the buzz? Why is this such a hot topic, live data from multi-cloud. >> Okay so let's just take a step back and talk about what multi-cloud actually is in today's definition, which is the vendor's definition, which is very convenient. So what they mean is, moving, putting applications into a container, Kubernetes or whatever, picking it up and shifting it somewhere else. And hey presto, I've got applications running, the same applications running in two different clouds. That is not multi-cloud because you're forgetting about the data, and the iceberg underneath the ocean of this colossal amount of data. If I've got petabyte-scale, multi-terabyte-scale data sets, and I need to run the same applications, or different applications but against the same data set, I need guaranteed consistent data, and that is, by definition, a data consistency problem. It is not a data replication problem. So all of the stuff that we used to use in the past for gigabyte-scale data, for traditional, relational database problems, none of that stuff works in a live data world. And by live data, we're talking about multi-terabyte, petabyte-scale data. Data sets that are so large that we've never seen them before running in end cloud locations. It's different or same applications, but guaranteed consistent data in every location. >> So you guys have had this core composite around integrity around the data, whether it's in replication. Sounds like the same thing's true around moving data. >> Yep. >> You guys are managing the life cycle of end-to-end of data movement. >> Yep. >> Point A to point B. >> Yep. >> The other approach is to move compute to the data. >> Yep. >> We're just seeing Amazon do a deal with VMware on-premise. So there's two schools of thought. When should customers think about each approach? Can you just kind of debunk or just clarify those two positions? >> So it's not really a chicken and egg because we know which comes first. It's definitely the chicken. It's definitely the data. So if I'm going to rebuild my application infrastructure, in the cloud, I'm going to do it piece-by-piece. I can't do lift-and-shift for a thousand applications that are running against this data set and just hope that the data that block for six months because I've got petabyte-scale data, and wait for it to all arrive in the cloud, or put it to the back of you know, use a snowmobile or some physical device to move the data. I need to do this, I need to kind of build the aircraft while it's taking off and flying and that's probably a good analogy. So what we see, is companies the first step is to get consistent data on-premise to cloud, or between different clouds. Then what that enables me to do of course, is to piece-by-piece then rebuild my application infrastructure at the pace that I want to. I mean there's a great add that I keep on seeing on t.v. Where it's migration day. As though I can press a button and then suddenly you know, in this Alice in Wonderland magical world, everything just appears. Realistically, and I saw the CEO of VMware a couple of years ago talk about being in a hybrid cloud scenario for 20 years. I think that's probably accurate. We've got billions of applications. A mix of homegrown stuff, a mix of, you know, actuarial applications in the insurance industry that are impossible to build overnight. This is going to take an elongated period of time. >> I was talking on Twitter with a bunch of thought leaders. We were talking about hybrid cloud and multi-cloud, and the kindergarten class is hybrid, right? >> Yeah. >> So you got some public cloud, then you got some on-premise data center. So getting that operational thing nailed down is great. But as you get old, you know, you progress in the grades, and get smarter, as you increase your I.T. I.Q., you're dealing with multiple, potentially multiple data centers or bigger on site, or an IOT edge, and multiple clouds. >> Yep. >> So that sounds easy on paper, but when you have to move data around the different work loads, that's the core problem that people are talking about today. How do you guys address this problem? Because I buy multi-cloud, I can see that certain tools and certain clouds the right work load and the right cloud, I get that. >> Yeah. It makes a lot of sense to me. The data is the problem. >> Yep. >> So how do you guys address that? This is the number one concern. >> So the closest, people ask me all the time about competition. The closest is Google. Google have got a product called Google Spanner. And Google Spanner is a time-sensitive, active-active WAN-scope data replication solution. That looks on paper very close to what WANdisco does. It enables them to keep active data in all of their different geolocations that they've built for their add services years and years and years ago. The trouble with that is, it only works on their own proprietary network, against their own proprietary applications because they launched a satellite and stuck it in the sky, they put dark fiber under the ocean, and they put GPS atomic clocks on every single one of their servers because it uses time and time accuracy in order to synchronize all of their data. We can do all of that over the public internet. So we're not a hardware solution. This is a pure software solution that can work over the public internet. So we can do that for any cloud vendor, and any provider of applications. And that's what we do. We're licensing our I.P. all over the place at the moment. >> So which clouds are, I imagine there's a great uptake for the clouds. Which one are you working with now? Can you talk about the deals you've done? >> We're very close. We announced the Azure partnership with Microsoft, and their Azure product, and we've been very impressed with the traction that we're seeing with them, particularly an enterprise cloud. I mean the early stage of cloud obviously was dominated by Amazon, Amazon Web Services. And they did a fantastic job of really bringing cloud to the market by accident kind of inventing cloud and then bringing it to market very very quickly. The fastest ever company to, if it's and independent company to 15 billion dollars, but most of those applications and projects and companies were born in the cloud. I mean a lot of the modern companies today were actually of course, you have Airbnb et cetera, were born in the cloud. So that, the second inning of cloud is certainly enterprise. We've also been impressed with the traction that we've seen from Google GCP as being extremely impressive. And of course Amazon continued to thrive. In cloud we also have an OEM deal with Ali, with Alibaba with their cloud as well. So they're really the only full. >> If Google has Spanner, how do you differentiate between Google Spanner? >> So Google Spanner only works on their proprietary network. Which is great for Google and between their data centers, but what about 99.9 percent of the rest of the problem, which is the rest of us right, who operate on the public internet. So we can do what Google Spanner does active-active, geo, one scope replication of data but over the public internet. >> So you guys have been talking active-active for many times. We've had many conversations here on theCUBE. So I get that. How has your business changed with cloud? You had mentioned prior to coming on camera. You made a bet on cloud. It's paying off obviously. People who have made the right bets on cloud at the right time, it's certainly paying off. You're one of them. How does the live data in the multi-cloud change your business? Does it increase your trajectory? Is there a pivot? I mean what does it mean for WANdisco? >> So the very, so my thesis or the company's thesis, I won't take the credit for it, but the company's thesis was really simplistic, which is our bet was in the small data world of gigabyte-scale data, in order to do data replication, small data equals small outage. When you get data sets that are growing exponentially, and you get, you know, data sets through a thousand or a million times greater than what we've seen previously, what was a small outage or small blocking of client applications will become an elongated blocking of client applications that we're talking about, you know, six months to move 20 petabytes of data. You can't block applications, business critical applications for six months. That was the bet that we made. We expected initially to see that happen on-premise in the data like world, in the Hadoop world if you will. That didn't quite happen, or has not happen to date. We don't think that's probably going to happen. We're certainly seeing a huge desire of companies moving those data lakes into cloud, and we've actually innovated, we've got some new inventions coming out that enable you to move in a single pass, massive quantity of data that will be exponentially faster than anything else, and just doing a unidirectional data move into clouds. That was our bet that we said "Okay, companies in order to achieve the kind of scale "that they need to achieve, "they're going to have to do this in cloud." "In order to get to cloud, "they're going to have to move that data there, "and they're not going to be able to block even for a day "in order to move that data to cloud." And that was the bet we made, and it was the right bet. >> Talk about where you guys go from here. Give a company update. What's the status of the company? Get some new personnel? Any changes, notable updates? >> So we, really interestingly, my Co-Founder and Chief Scientist is a genius, Dr. Yeturu Aahlad, Ph.D. from UT, and undergrad from IIT, a new VP of Engineering Sakthi, IIT, Ph.D. at U.T. under Draxler. This fantastic Ph.D. program they did there. My new Head of Research came from, was Chairman of Computer Science at the University of Denver. He's was an IIT undergrad, Ph.D with Aahlad at UT. And I said jokingly to Aahlad: "There must be a fourth guy "that we can bring on board here "that went through the same program." He said, "We can but we can't hire him, "because he's the CTO of Microsoft, so." That was, he was the forth guy. Joel, who I know, is going to be coming on theCUBE shortly. He also has joined us from IBM to run Marketing for us. So we've made some fantastic new hires. The company's doing really well. You know cloud certainly has played a big part in the second half of last year. I think it's going to play a big part. It's definitely going to play a big part in 2019. We've seen a pivot in pipeline, that's moved away from possibly even disaster recovery, data lake in the first half of last year. We pivoted to more of a reliable subscription revenue in the second half of the year. We announced some pretty big deals, big healthcare companies. We've got really good public reference with AMD. We announced a motor vehicle company one of the new used cases there is four petabytes of data per day they're generating. That all has to be moved from on-premise to cloud. So we've got some ginormous deals in pipeline. We'll see how they play out in the coming weeks and months. >> It's great to see the change, and certainly on theCUBE. We've been talking, I think we've known each other for almost, this is our tenth year. >> Yeah. Ever since we first met. It's fun to see how you guys entered the market at Hadoop, staying on the data wave and thinking enterprise, integrity of the data, active-active, the key I.P. And how cloud is just assumed data, and it's not just data, it's large scale. So if you look at the new people you hired, you've got jobs in large scale systems. >> Yep. >> We're talking about a large systems, now data is just given. So you're really nailing the large scale, moving from an enterprise nice feature, certainly table stakes for fault tolerance, and active-active. Just add recovery to mission critical >> Yep. >> Ingredient in large scale cloud. >> Well it's ironic isn't it because our value actually increases with the volume of data. So we're an unusual company in that context where the larger the data site, the greater the problem, and the greater the problem that we solve. See we made a pretty good bet, the active-active replication, that live data would be a critical component of both hybrid cloud and multi-cloud. And that's playing out I think really well for us. >> And certainly a lot more changes to come. Great to have you on. >> Yeah. >> Cloud and multi-cloud. Certainly cloud has proven the economics proven large scale value of moving at cloud speed but now you have multiple clouds. That's going to change the game on applications, work loads. It's not going to change the data equation. There's still more tsunami of data that's not stopping. >> Exactly. >> I think you've got a good wave you're riding. >> Yeah. >> Data cloud wave. David Richards, CEO of WANdisco here in CUBE Conversations here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat instrumental music)

Live from New York, it's theCUBE. Covering theCUBE, New York City 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE live in New York City for our CUBE NYC event, #cubenyc. This is our ninth year covering the big data ecosystem going back to the original Hadoop world, now it's evolved to essentially all things AI, future of AI. Peter Burris is my cohost. He gave a talk two nights ago on the future of AI presented in his research. So it's all about data, it's all about the cloud, it's all about live action here in theCUBE. Our next guest is David Richards, who's been in the industry for a long time, seen the evolution of Hadoop, been involved in it, has been a key enabler of the technology, certainly enabling cloud recovery replication for cloud, welcome back to theCUBE. It's good to see you. >> It's really good to be here. >> I got to say, you've been on theCUBE pretty much every year, I think every year, we've done nine years now. You made some predictions and calls that actually happened. Like five years ago you said the cloud's going to kill Hadoop. Yeah, I think you didn't say that off camera, but it might (laughing) maybe you said it on camera. >> I probably did, yeah. >> [John] But we were kind of pontificating but also speculating, okay, where does this go? You've been right on a lot of calls. You also were involved in the Hadoop distribution business >>back in the day. Oh god. >> You got out of that quickly. (laughing) You saw that early, good call. But you guys have essentially a core enabler that's been just consistently performing well in the market both on the Hadoop side, cloud, and as data becomes the conversation, which has always been your perspective, you guys have had a key in part of the infrastructure for a long time. What's going on? Is it still doing deals, what's? >> Yes, I mean, the history of WANdisco's play and big data in Hadoop has been, as you know because you've been with us for a long time, kind of an interesting one. So we back in sort of 2013, 2014, 2015 we built a Hadoop-specific product called Non-Stop NameNode and we had a Hadoop distribution. But we could see this transition, this change in the market happening. And the change wasn't driven necessarily by the advent of new technology. It was driven by overcomplexity associated with deploying, managing Hadoop clusters at scale because lots of people, and we were talking about this off-camera before, can deploy Hadoop in a fairly small way, but not many companies are equipped or built to deploy massive scale Hadoop distributions. >> Sustain it. >> They can't sustain it, and so the call that I made you know, actions speak louder than words. The company rebuilt the product, built a general purpose data replication platform called WANdisco Fusion that, yes, supported Hadoop but also supported object store and cloud technologies. And we're now seeing use cases in cloud certainly begin to overtake Hadoop for us for the first time. >> And you guys have a patent that's pretty critical in all this, right? >> Yeah. So there's some real IP. >> Yes, so people often make the mistake of calling us a data replication business, which we are, but data replication happens post-consensus or post-agreement, so the very heart of WANdisco of 35 patents are all based around a Paxos-based consensus algorithm, which wasn't a very cool thing to talk about now with the advent of blockchain and decentralized computing, consensus is at the core of pretty much that movement, so what WANdisco does is a consensus algorithm that enables things like hybrid cloud, multi cloud, poly cloud as Microsoft call it, as well as disaster recovery for Hadoop and other things. >> Yeah, as you have more disparate parts working together, say multi cloud, I mean, you're really perfectly positioned for multi cloud. I mean, hybrid cloud is hybrid cloud, but also multi cloud, they're two different things. Peter has been on the record describing the difference between hybrid cloud and multi cloud, but multi cloud is essentially connecting clouds. >> We're on a mission at the moment to define what those things actually are because I can tell you what it isn't. A multi cloud strategy doesn't mean you have disparate data and processes running in two different clouds that just means that you've got two different clouds. That's not a multi cloud strategy. >> [Peter] Two cloud silos. >> Yeah, correct. That's kind of creating problems that are really going to be bad further down the road. And hybrid cloud doesn't mean that you run some operations and processes and data on premise and a different siloed approach to cloud. What this means is that you have a data layer that's clustered and stretched, the same data that's stretched across different clouds, different on-premise systems, whether it's Hadoop on-premise and maybe I want to build a huge data lake in cloud and start running complex AI and analytics processes over there because I'm, less face it, banks et cetera ain't going to be able to manage and run AI themselves. It's already being done by Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and others in the cloud. So the ability to run this simultaneously in different locations is really important. That's what we do. >> [John] All right, let me just ask this directly since we're filming and we'll get a clip out of this. What is the definition of hybrid cloud? And what is the definition of multi cloud? Take, explain both of those. >> The ability to manage and run the same data set against different applications simultaneously. And achieve exactly the same result. >> [John] That's hybrid cloud or multi cloud? >> Both. >> So they're the same. >> The same. >> You consider hybrid cloud multi cloud the same? >> For us it's just a different end point. It's hybrid kind of mean that you're running something implies on-premise. A multi cloud or poly cloud implies that you're running between different cloud venues. >> So hybrid is location, multi is source. >> Correct. >> So but let's-- >> [David] That's a good definition. >> Yes, but let's unpack this a little bit because at the end of the day, what a business is going to want to do is they're going to want to be able to run apply their data to the best service. >> [David] Correct. >> And increasingly that's what we're advising our clients to think about. >> [David] Yeah. >> Don't think about being an AWS customer, per se, think about being a customer of AWS services that serve your business. Or IBM services that serve your business. But you want to ensure that your dependency on that service is not absolute, and that's why you want to be able to at least have the option of being able to run your data in all of these different places. >> And I think the market now realizes that there is not going to be a single, dominant vendor for cloud infrastructure. That's not going to happen. Yes, it happened, Oracle dominated in relational data. SAP dominated for ERP systems. For cloud, it's democratized. That's not going to happen. So everybody knows that Amazon probably have the best serverless compute lambda functions available. They've got millions of those things already written or in the process of being written. Everybody knows that Microsoft are going to extend the wonderful technology that they have on desktop and move that into cloud for analytics-based technologies and so on. The Google have been working on artificial intelligence for an elongated period of time, so vendors are going to arbitrage between different cloud vendors. They're going to choose the best of brood approach. >> [John] They're going to go to Google for AI and scale, they're going to go to Amazon for robustness of services, and they're going to go to Microsoft for the Suite. >> [Peter] They're going to go for the services. They're looking at the services, that's what they need to do. >> And the thing that we'll forget, that we don't at WANdisco, is that that requires guaranteed consistent data sets underneath the whole thing. >> So where does Fusion fit in here? How is that getting traction? Give us some update. Are you working with Microsoft? I know we've been talking about Amazon, what about Microsoft? >> So we've been working with Microsoft, we announced a strategic partnership with them in March where we became a tier zero vendor, which basically means that we're partnered with them in lockstep in the field. We executed extremely well since that point and we've done a number of fairly large, high-profile deals. A retailer, for example, that was based in Amazon didn't really like being based in Amazon so had to build a poly cloud implementation to move had to buy scale data from AWS into Azure, that went seamlessly. It was an overnight success. >> [John] And they're using your technology? >> They're using our technology. There's no other way to do that. I think the world has now, what Microsoft and others have realized, CDC technology changed data capture. Doesn't work at this kind of scale where you batch up a bunch of changes and then you ship them, block shipping or whatever, every 15 minutes or so. We're talking about petabyte scale ingest processes. We're talking about huge data lakes, that that technology simply doesn't work at this kind of scale. >> [John] We've got a couple minutes left, I want to just make sure we get your views on blockchain, you mentioned consensus, I want to get your thoughts on that because we're seeing blockchain is certainly experimental, it's got, it's certainly powering money, Bitcoin and the international markets, it's certainly becoming a money backbone for countries to move billions of dollars out. It's certainly in the tank right now about 600 million below its mark in January, but blockchain is fundamentally supply chain, you're seeing consensus, you're seeing some of these things that are in your realm, what's your view? >> So first of all, at WANdisco, we separate the notion of cryptocurrency and blockchain. We see blockchain as something that's been around for a long time. It's basically the world is moving to decentralization. We're seeing this with airlines, with supermarkets, and so on. People actually want to decentralize rather that centralize now. And the same thing is going to happen in the financial industry where we don't actually need a central transaction coordinator anymore, we don't need a clearinghouse, in other words. Now, how do you do that? At the very heart of blockchain is an incorrect assumption. So must people think that Satoshi's invention, whoever that may be, was based around the blockchain itself. Blockchain is pieced together technologies that doesn't actually scale, right? So it takes game-theoretic approach to consensus. And I won't get, we don't have enough time for me to delve into exactly what that means, but our consensus algorithm has already proven to scale, right? So what does that mean? Well, it means that if you want to go and buy a cup of coffee at the Starbucks next door, and you want to use a Bitcoin, you're going to be waiting maybe half an hour for that transaction to settle, right? Because the-- >> [John] The buyer's got to create a block, you know, all that step's in one. >> The game-theoretic approach basically-- >> Bitcoin's running 500,000 transactions a day. >> Yeah. That's eight. >> There's two transactions per second, right? Between two and eight transactions per second. We've already proven that we can achieve hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of agreements per second. Now the argument against using Paxos, which is what our technology's based on, is it's too complicated. Well, no shit, of course it's too complicated. We've solved that problem. That's what WANdisco does. So we've filed a patent >> So you've abstracted the complexity, that's your job. >> We've extracted the complexity. >> So you solve the complexity problem by being a complex solution, but you're making and abstracting it even easier. >> We have an algorithmic not a game-theoretic approach. >> Solving the scale problem Correct. >> Using Paxos in a way that allows real developers to be able to build consensus algorithm-based applications. >> Yes, and 90% of blockchain is consensus. We've solved the consensus problem. We'll be launching a product based around Hyperledger very soon, we're already in tests and we're already showing tens of thousands of transactions per second. Not two, not 2,000, two transactions. >> [Peter] The game theory side of it is still going to be important because when we start talking about machines and humans working together, programs don't require incentives. Human beings do, and so there will be very, very important applications for this stuff. But you're right, from the standpoint of the machine-to-machine when there is no need for incentive, you just want consensus, you want scale. >> Yeah and there are two approaches to this world of blockchains. There's public, which is where the Bitcoin guys are and the anarchists who firmly believe that there should be no oversight or control, then there's the real world which is permission blockchains, and permission blockchains is where the banks, where the regulators, where NASDAQ will be when we're trading shares in the future. That will be a permission blockchain that will be overseen by a regulator like the SEC, NASDAQ, or London Stock Exchange, et cetera. >> David, always great to chat with you. Thanks for coming on, again, always on the cutting edge, always having a great vision while knocking down some good technology and moving your IP on the right waves every time, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Always on the next wave, David Richards here inside theCUBE. Every year, doesn't disappoint, theCUBE bringing you all the action here. Cube NYC, we'll be back with more coverage. Stay with us; a lot more action for the rest of the day. We'll be right back; stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(techy music) >> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's theCUBE covering Blockchain Futurist Conference 2018, brought to you by theCUBE. (techy music) >> Hello, everyone, and welcome back. This is the live CUBE coverage here in Toronto, Ontario here in Canada for the Untraceable Blockchain Futurist Conference. This is day two of wall-to-wall CUBE coverage. We've got great presentations going on, live content here on theCUBE as well as in the sessions, great networking, but more important all the thought leaders in the industry around the world are coming together to try to set the standards and set up a great future for cryptocurrency and blockchain in general. Our next two guests are very special guests for theCUBE and we're excited to have them on, the Honorable Wayne Caines, Minister of National Security for the government of Bermuda, and Kevin Richards, concierge on the Fintech business development manager, part of the Bermuda Business Development Agency. Thank you guys for coming on, really appreciate the time. >> Thanks very much. >> Thank you for having us. >> Why this is so important is that we heard your presentation onstage, for the folks, they can catch it online when they film it and record it, but the Bermuda opportunity has really emerged as a shining light around the world, specifically in the United States. In California, where I live, Silicon Valley, you guys are now having great progress in hosting companies and being crypto-friendly. Take a minute to explain what's happening, what's the current situation, why Bermuda, why now, what's developing? >> This has all happened over the last eight months. We were looking in November of 2017 to go in the space. In January we went to the World Economic Forum in Davos in Switzerland. When we went to Davos in Switzerland something very interesting happened. People kept coming up to us, I was like the Hound of the Baskerville, or the Pied Piper if you please, and so, so many people were coming up to us finding out more information about Bermuda. We realized that our plan that we thought we could phase in over 18 months, that it had to be accelerated. So, whilst we were at the World Economic Forum in Davos we said to people, "Listen, if you want to change the world, "if you want to help Bermuda to grow, if you're serious," this is a Thursday, "Meet us in Bermuda on the Monday morning." On the Monday morning there are 14 different people in the room. We sat in the room, we talked about what we wanted the world to be, how could Bermuda be in place, what are the needs in this industry, and by the Wednesday we had a complete and total framework, and so we split up into industries. Number one was ICOs, we wanted to look at how to regulate the ICO market. Number two, we wanted to look at digital asset exchanges or cryptocurrencies or how do we regulate security tokens and utility tokens and what do exchanges look like, how do we do exchanges in Bermuda, and then we wanted to talk about education and setting up incubators. And so, come fast forward to July, August, we have an ICO bill in place that allows us to look at setting up ICOs in Bermuda. We wanted to focus on the legal and the regulatory framework, so this is a nascent space. A number of people are concerned about the dark actors, and so we wanted to set up a jurisdiction that traded on our international reputation. Now, remember for the last 60 years reinsurance, finance, captives, hedge funds, people in the financial services market have been coming to Bermuda because that's what we do well. We were trading on the reputation of our country, and so we couldn't do anything to jeopardize that. And so, when we put in place the ICO legislation we had consultants from all over the world, people that were bastions and beasts in industry, in the ICO industry and in the crypto world came to Bermuda and helped us to develop the legislation around setting up an ICO. So, we passed the ICO legislation. The next phase was regulating cryptocurrencies, regulating digital assets, and we set up a piece of legislation called the Digital Asset Business Act, and that just regulates the digital asset space exchanges, and the last piece we wanted to do was a banking piece, and this is the last and we believe the most significant piece. We were talking to people and they were not able to open up bank accounts and they were not able to do, so we said, "Listen, "the Bermuda banking environment is very strong." Our banking partners were like, "Listen, "we love what you guys are doing, "but based on our corresponding banking relationships "we don't want to do anything to jeopardize that space," but how could we tell people to come to Bermuda, set up your company, and they can't open bank accounts? And so, we looked at, we just recently passed creating a new banking license that allows people to set up their business in Bermuda and set up banking relationships and set up bank accounts. That simply has to receive the governor's Royal Assent. As you know, Bermuda's still a British pan-territory, and financial matters have to get the okay of the Queen, and so that is in the final stages, but we're excited, we're seeing an influx, excuse me, a deluge of people coming to Bermuda to set up their companies in Bermuda. >> So, the first two pieces are in place, you have the legislation... >> Mm-hm. >> Mm-hm. >> You have the crypto piece, and now the banking's not yet, almost approved, right? >> It's there, it simply has to get the final sign-off, and we believe that it should take place within the next two weeks. So, by the time this goes to air and people see it we believe that piece will be in place. >> So, this is great news, so the historical perspective is you guys had a good reputation, you have things going on, now you added on a new piece not to compromise your existing relationships and build it on. What have you guys learned in the process, what did you discover, was it easy, was it hard, what are some of the learnings? >> What we've learnt is that KYC, know your customers, and the AML, anti-money laundering, and terrorist financing pieces, those are the critical pieces. People are looking in this space now for regulatory certainty, so when you're talking about people that are in the space that are doing ICOs of $500 million or exchanges that are becoming unicorns, a billion dollar entity in three months, they want a jurisdiction that has regulatory certainty. Not only do they want a jurisdiction with regulatory certainty, they want to open up the kimono. What has this country done in the past, what do they have to trade on? We're saying you can go to a number of countries in the world, but look at our reputation, what we're trading on, and so we wanted to create a space with regulatory certainty, and so we have a regulatory body in Bermuda called the Bermuda Monetary Authority, and they are an independent regulator that they penned the Digital Asset Business Act, and so the opportunity simply for people around the world saying, "Listen, we want to do an ICO, "we want to set up an exchange. "Where's a country that we can go to that has a solid reputation? Hold on, how many countries have law surrounding"-- >> Yeah. >> "The Digital Asset Business Act, how many ICO countries have laws. Guess what, Bermuda becomes a standout jurisdiction in that regard. >> Having a regulation signaling is really important, stability or comfort is one, but the one concern that we hear from entrepreneurs, including, you know, ourselves when we look at the market is service providers. You want to have enough service providers around the table so when I come in and domicile, say, in Bermuda you want to have the banking relationships, you want to have the fiduciary-- >> Yes. >> You want to have service providers, law firms and other people. >> Yes. >> How are you guys talking about that, is that already in place? How does that fit into the overall roadmap for your vision? >> I don't want to beat a horse (laughs) or beat a drum too much, that is what we do as a country. So, we have set up, whether it's a group of law firms and the Bermuda, excuse me, the Bermuda Monetary Authority, the Bermuda that's the register of companies that sets up the companies. We have Kevin, and Kevin will tell you about it, he leads our concierge team. So, it's one throat to choke, one person that needs, so when you come to really understand that the ease of business, a county that's business-friendly with a small country and with a small government it's about ease of reference. Kevin, tell us a little about the concierge team. >> It's like the Delaware of the glove, right? >> Absolutely. >> Come in, domicile, go and tell us how it works. >> I'll give you a little bit of background on what we do on the concierge side. So, one thing that we identified is that we want to make sure that we've got a structure and a very clearly defined roadmap for companies to follow so that process from when they first connect with the BDA in Bermuda to when they're incorporated and set up and moved to Bermuda to start running their business is a seamless process that has very clearly identifiable road marks of different criteria to get through. So, what I do as a concierge manager is I will identify who that company needs to connect with when they're on the ground in Bermuda, get those meetings set up for when they come down so that they have a very clearly mapped out day for their trip to Bermuda. So, they meet with the regulator, they meet with the government leaders, they meet with the folks who've put together legislation that, obviously you mentioned the service providers, so identifying who's the right law firm, corporate service provider, advisory firm on the ground in Bermuda, compliance company, and then making sure that depending on what that company wants to achieve out of their operation in Bermuda they've got an opportunity to connect with those partners on their first trip so that they can put that road map together for-- >> So, making it easy... >> Making it very easy to set up in Bermuda. >> So, walk me through, I want to come down, I want to do business-- >> Yeah. >> Like what I hear, what do I do? >> So, you send me an email and you say, "Listen, Wayne, we're looking at "doing an ICO launch in Bermuda. "I would like to meet with the regulator. "Can you put a couple law firms in place," in an email. I zip that over to Kevin or you go on our Fintech.bm website-- >> Yeah, I was going to say... >> Fintech.bm website, and Kevin literally organizes a meeting. So, when you come to Bermuda for your meeting you have a boardroom and all the key players will be in the boardroom. >> Got it. >> If you need somebody to pick you up at the airport, if you need a hotel, whatever you need from soup to nuts our team actually makes that available to you, so you're not running around trying to find different people to meet, everyone's there in the room. >> And the beauty of Bermuda is that, you know, the city of Hamilton's two square kilometers, so your ability to get a lot done in one day is, I think, second to nowhere else on the planet, and working with the BDA concierge team you're, you know, we connect with the client before they come down and make sure we identify what their needs are. >> The number one question I have to ask, and this is probably the most important for everyone, is do they have to wear Bermuda shorts? (laughs) >> When you come you tell us your size, you tell us what size and what color you want and we'll make sure, so the... I tell this story about the Bermuda shorts. The Bermuda shorts, Bermuda's always had to adapt and overcome. Bermuda, we have something called the Bermuda sloop and it's a sailing rig, and so we... The closest port to Bermuda is Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and we wanted to cut down the time of their voyage, so we created a sailing rig called the Bermuda rig or the Bermuda sloop. Over the years that has become the number one adopted rig on sailing boats. We've always had to adapt and become innovative. The Bermuda shorts were a way to adapt and to get through our very hot climate, and so if you look at just keep that in mind, the innovation of the Bermuda sloop and the Bermuda shorts. Now, this Fintech evolution is another step in that innovation and a way that we take what's going on in the world and adapt it to make it palatable for everyone. >> What's the brand promise for you guys when you look at when entrepreneurs out there and other major institutions, especially in the United States, again, Silicon Valley's one of the hottest issues around-- >> Yes. >> Startups for expansion, right now people are stalled, they don't know what to do, they hear Malta, they hear other things going on. What's the promise that you guys are making to the law firms and the people, entrepreneurs out there trying to establish and grow? >> The business proposition is this, you want a jurisdiction that is trading on years of solid regulation, a country and a government that understands business, how to be efficacious in business. When you come to Bermuda you are trading on a country that this is what we've done for a living. So, you don't have to worry about ethical government, is your money going to be safe. We have strong banking relationships, strong law firms, top tier law firms in Bermuda, but more importantly, we have legislation that is in place that allow you to have a secure environment with a clear regulatory framework. >> What should people look for as potentially might be gimmicks for other countries to promote that, you know, being the Delaware for the globe and domiciling, and what are some of the requirements? I mean, some have you've got to live there, you know, what are some of the things that are false promises that you hear from other potential areas that you guys see and don't have to require and put the pressure on someone? >> When you hear the people say, "We can turn your company around in the next day." That we don't require significant KYC and AML. Red flags immediately go up with the global regulatory bodies. We want when a person comes to Bermuda to know that we have set what we believe is called the Bermuda Standard. When you come to Bermuda you're going to have to jump through some legal and regulatory hoops. You can see regulation, the ICO regulation and the Digital Asset Business Act on BermudaLaws.bm. BermudaLaws.bm, and you can go through the legislation clause by clause to see if this meets your needs, how it will affect your business. It sets up clearly what the requirements are to be in Bermuda. >> What's the feedback from business, because you know, when you hear about certain things, that's why Delaware's so easy, easy to set up, source price all know how to do in a corporation, let's say in the United States-- >> We don't have the SEC handicaps that they have in America, going from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. You're dealing with a colony that allows you to be in a domicile that all of the key players finances... We have a number of the key elements that are Bermuda. We're creating a biosphere that allows a person to be in a key space, and this is, you have first move as advantage in Bermuda. We have a number of things that we're working on, like the Estonia model of e-residency, which we will call EID, that creates a space that you are in Bermuda in a space that is, it's protected, it's governed. We believe that when companies set up in Bermuda they are getting the most secure, the strongest business reputation that a country could have. >> The other thing I would add, I'll just say, you know, quality, certainty, and community is what that brand represents. So, you know, you've got that historical quality of what Bermuda brings as a business jurisdiction, you have the certainty of the regulation and that pathway to setting your company up and incorporating in Bermuda, and then the community piece is something that we've been working on to make sure that any of the players that are coming to Bermuda and connecting with Bermuda and setting up there, they feel like they're really integrated into that whole community in Bermuda, whether it be from the government side, the private sector side. You can see it with the companies that have set up that are here today, you know, they really have embraced that Bermuda culture, the Bermuda shorts, and what we're really trying to do as a jurisdiction in the tech space. >> What can I expect if I domicile in Bermuda from a company perspective, what do I have to forecast? What's the budget, what do I got to do, what's my expectation? Allocate resources, what's going to be reporting, can you just give us some color commentary? >> So, with reference, it depends what you're trying to do, and so there will be different requirements for the ICO legislation. For the ICO legislation a key piece of the document actually is the whitepaper. Within the whitepaper you will settle what your scope of business is, what do you want to do, what you know, everything, everything that you require will be settled in your whitepaper. After the whitepaper is approved and if it is indeed successful, you go to the Bermuda Monetary Authority and they will outline what they require of you, and very shortly thereafter you will able to set up and do business in Bermuda. With reference to the digital asset exchanges, the Digital Asset Business Act, such a clear guideline, so you're going to need to have a key man in Bermuda, a key woman in Bermuda. >> Yeah. >> You're going to need to have a place of presence in Bermuda, so there are normal requirements-- >> There's levels of requirements based upon the scope. >> Absolutely. >> So, if you run an exchange it has to be like ghosting there. >> Yeah, yeah, you need boots on the ground. >> And that's why the AML and the KYC piece is so important. >> Yeah. Well, I'm super excited, I think this is a great progress and this has been a big uncertainty, you know, what does this signal. People have, you know, cognitive dissonance around some-- >> Yes. >> Of the decisions they're making, and I've seen entrepreneurs flip flop between Liechtenstein, Malta, Caymans. >> Right. >> You know, so this is a real concern and you guys want to be that place. >> Not only, we will say this, Bermuda is open for business, but remember, when you see the requirements that we have some companies won't meet the standard. We're not going to alter the standard to accommodate a business that might not be what we believe is best for Bermuda, and we believe that once people see the standard, the Bermuda Standard, it'll cascade down and we believe that high tides raises all boats. >> Yeah. >> We have a global standard, and if a company meets it we will be happy for them to set up and do business in Bermuda. >> Well, I got to say, it's looking certainly that leaders like Grant Fondo in Silicon Valley and others have heard good things. >> Yeah. >> How's been the reaction for some of the folks on the East Coast, in New York and around the United States and around the world? What has been some of the commentary, what's been the anecdotal feedback that you've heard? >> We're meeting three and four companies every day of the week. Our runway is full of Fintech companies coming to Bermuda, from... We have insurtech companies that are coming in Bermuda, people are coming to Bermuda for think tanks, to set up incubators and to do exploratory meetings, and so we're seeing a huge interest in Bermuda the likes have not been seen in the last 20 years in Bermuda. >> Well, it's been a pleasure chatting with you and thanks for sharing the update and congratulations. We'll keep in touch, we're following your progress from California, we'll follow up again. The Honorable Wayne Caines, the Minister of National Security of the government of Bermuda, and Kevin Richards, concierge taking care of business, making it easy for people. >> Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. >> We'll see, I'm going to come down, give me the demo. >> We're open for business and we're looking forward to seeing everybody. (laughs) >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Major developments happening in the blockchain, crypto space. We're starting to see formation clarity around, standards around traditional structures but not so traditional. It's not your grandfather's traditional model. This is what's great about blockchain and crypto. CUBE coverage here, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching, stay with us. More day two coverage after this short break. (techy music)

>> Narrator: Live from Manhattan, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit New York City 2017, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> And welcome back to New York, here. AWS Summit, theCUBE continue our coverage of what's happening here in the Big Apple. I'm John Walls along with Stu Miniman, and what this is is maybe not the most prolific CUBE guest of all time, but he's in the hall of fame. He really is a CUBE MVP for sure. It's good to have David Richards with us, the president, chairman, CEO of WANdisco. Good to see you, sir. >> It's a pleasure to be back again. It feels like home. >> It is like home. We need to get you your own microphone, I think, you know? >> David: I know it. I need my name on the back of the seat or something. >> This isn't quite a home game for you. All right, so you've got an office in Sheffield, England. >> David: Yeah. >> You've got an office out in the valley, Silicon Valley. We got ya right in the middle, I think. >> David: Yeah. >> Almost, don't we? So-- >> Exactly. >> We kind of split the difference for you this one. >> I always tell people I'm recolonizing the United States. I've been here for about 20 years. I can change the accent. >> Right. >> I'll get you all, eventually. >> All right, well, another year or two, we'll see how that works for ya. Big, big, I guess six, seven months for you, right? As far as some acquisitions you've done, some vice partnerships and arrangements you've done. >> Yes, as a business, we've really progressed well in the first half of the year. I've got to be a little bit careful. We've got results coming out September the sixth in London, but we did do a pre-announcement of a business update. We signed a record big data cloud contract with a very large bank for over four million dollars. That was our largest ever contract win. We signed a major retailer who we can't name, obviously, which is another sort of cloud ObjectStore on premises. A big data win, and interestingly, we stopped burning cash and investors really like this kind of perfect storm of, 175%, 173% growth in our cloud big data revenue, booking, sorry, combined with a flat cost-base, which meant, first half of last year, burning five point four million dollars down to virtually zero, just $600,000 in the first half. So, investors really like that. We really like that, and it demonstrates that perfect storm of flat cost-base and growing sales. >> David, I'm curious, does working with Amazon, and your customers being on Amazon, does the speed and agility and everything like that contribute to that profitability? >> Well, Amazon kind of changes the game for all vendors, right? Because nobody, it used to be this sort of big four, five, six, whatever it is these days, consulting companies that had to implement ERP systems and all those complex applications. I don't necessarily think they're the people, they're not the go-to people anymore for cloud. So, it's down to uniqueness of technology. Amazon have got such a wide array, we were talking earlier about some of their announcements out today as they continue to go up the stack with applications and so on. So, it does lend itself very well to small vendors with sticky, unique intellectual property and unique products and services that are going to really thrive in this kind of cloud environment. So, we've really enjoyed working with Amazon, but we're also working with the other cloud vendors, as well, and I have to say, when we first saw the Snowmobile and the Snowball, well, actually, the Snowmobile, drive out on stage in New York, was it 12, 18 months ago? It's dog years, so everything goes seven times faster. >> John: Right, right, right. >> I was laughing. I was like, "How on Earth can you possibly use a truck to move data?" But a customer came to us, a prospect came to us the other day, he wanted to move a hundred petabytes of data. Now, if you're going to use the public internet to do that, that's going to take a hell of a long time. So, this idea of a mix between physical and digital data movement I think is, when moving to cloud, is actually fascinating. I think it's a really fascinating subject area. One that customers are definitely going to use. >> Yeah, you've got a great vantage point looking at customers' migrations. >> David: Yeah. >> It was actually something big in the keynote talking about, there are so many migrations out there that Amazon released an AWS Migration Hubs. So, obviously, physics is always a challenge, my legacy mindset. Customers, we heard a customer up onstage and it's usually not lift and shift maybe for the private cloud, but for public cloud, I usually, I need to rewrite, I need to do micro-services. What is the friction for customers, and how are you and Amazon and the other clouds helping customers work through those challenges? >> OK, so, just to take a step back and think about the problems that happen at hyper-scale data movement. So, small-scale data, gigabyte-scale data, the stuff that you typically see in a relational database, they're not particularly big problems. It's kind of minimal outage, press pause, move data, make it consistent, and you're done. You can have a sort of, a small outage, maybe 15 minutes or even a day to move data, but when it gets to hyper-scale, when it gets to petabyte-scale, multi-terabyte-scale data moves, that's when you have a problem, and that's really the problem that we solve. So, the idea that you can move data that's moving and changing without an interruption to service from on-premise to cloud and support a hybrid cloud topology for an elongated period of time is fascinating. I was listening at an investor conference to the CEO of VMware who was talking about, we're going to be in a situation of hybrid cloud for the next 20, 25 years because, overnight, not everybody can just repurpose every single application that they're running on-premise, whether it's in the main frame application, or a relational data application, or wherever it is in the OP application, and repurpose that in cloud overnight. So, we're going to have to gradually move and migrate those applications over. So, it's highly likely we're going to be in a hybrid cloud environment for the foreseeable future, and that's actually fantastic news for us. We're moving, as I said, at scale companies into cloud with transactional data, and nobody else can touch us in terms of the uniqueness of the IP, which is fantastic news for us. >> In terms of just big data in general, Stu has one use for it, I have a different use for it. It's going to live in a lot of different places. How are you responding to different needs within your clients and trying to make them more effective, make them more efficient? And yet, when you're dealing with more and more data, that's a big storm to handle. >> That's a great question. I went to speak a couple of months ago to a new customer of ours who is a major healthcare provider on the east coast, and I kind of said to him, "OK, you've had this deep cluster for the past three years. Why are you calling us? Why now?" Which is the question that I always ask our customers. Why? What changed? Why are you doing this right now?" And maybe for the past three years they've been putting legal data into the system. That's data, but who cares if you can't get access to it? We can move to telephone. We can move to e-mails. We can go into an archive, into a paper archive even, to find it, but the why now is that they're now putting patient record data, patient information with regulated SLA's into this system, and that really is our sweet spot. As you get to, remember that investment thesis, small-scale gigabyte outage is small outage, when you get into petabyte, exabyte-scale, when you've got data sets that are a thousand, a million times greater, it's linear to the quantum of data. That outage becomes a thousand or a million times greater. So, that's kind of intolerable. So, we love it when strategic applications, regardless of what the use case is, we could all have different, it might be patient data, it might be retail information, it might be banking data, it might be customer retention information, when those strategic applications move onto this hyper-scale infrastructure, you have to support RTO and RTP, and that's what we do. >> And is a byte a byte a byte? You have these thousands of needles in haystacks, right? How do you assign value to one as opposed to another? >> So, this is another great question and one that investors kind of ask me a lot. So, we used to model our business from kind of the ground up. So, we take the classic enterprise sales team, you have a sales and marketing organization that's quite large, you would multiply that by their quota and then multiply it by 66% because that's how many of them are going to be successful in selling product. Well, we completely threw that away when we launched WANdisco Fusion, our new technology, early 2016. Then, we moved to a channel-based approach. So, we have IBM, we have an OAM, 5,000 quarter-carrying enterprise sales guys at IBM selling our products. That was a fantastic deal for us. We signed it in April 2016, and they've done the first half of this year, and made at least six million dollars in sales that we have also announced, and then, we've got strategic partnerships with Amazon, with Microsoft, with Google, and we model our business by those channels. So, we're not looking for needles in haystacks. We don't, we could never hire another, I mean, if we had to come into the market and say, "We need to go and hire 5,000 enterprise sales guys," we'd have to be raising, doing fund-raisers like Uber or something. We'd just be untenable. We couldn't do it. So, we have a product that lends itself very well to a channel-based approach, and that's working very nicely for us. So, we're not looking for, we're just looking for haystacks. Somebody else can go and find the needles. >> John: Find me and you, right? >> Right. >> David, how are your customers managing the pace of change these days? We've said Amazon is an example. It's like everyday there's three new services coming out. Are they excited? Are they completely overwhelmed? What do you see these days? >> So, I think it's classic sort of products and option lifecycle stuff. The sort of technical enthusiasts, they love all this change. The early-stage companies that are implementing this new cloud-based technology, ObjectStore technology and so on, they're managing very well. It's the later-stage companies you might go to and say, "ObjectStore," and they'll go, "What's ObjectStore? We're just getting our head around Hadoop, and Hive, and Pig, and all this other stuff that you were talking about three years ago," and sales guys go in there now and say, "Oh, no, no, no, don't worry about Hadoop. Nobody's going to run Hadoop in the cloud." It's like, "Well, that's what you told me three years ago." So, I think the market's certainly divided. I think you're going to see, as we move up products and option lifecycle, you're going to see lots and lots and lots of interesting moves happen. The companies that seem to be owning cloud, I think Alibaba is coming up really fast. We're seeing them doing some interesting things. Obviously, they've got dominoes in the Chinese market. Amazon First-Mover, Microsoft's futures dependent on cloud. So, they all have their different spin and different take on applications that they're going to run in cloud. I think there is, I think it's a bit like the cellphone industry. There's lot and lots of different plans, lots and lots of different confusing nomenclature, but that's going to settle out in the next couple of years, but there's unquestionably, if you look at the audience here today, unquestionably large-scale movement of applications and data to cloud. >> Well, we appreciate the time, as always. Great to see you. Another notch in your CUBE belt. (laughing) So, congratulations for that, and maybe you can settle in to New York for a day or two. You said your travels have had you flip-floppin' back and forth between England and here. So, maybe you can settle in for a day or two. >> Yeah, I need to replicate myself. I need to put myself in at least two different places at the same time. >> Live data replication right here. (laughing) All right, David, thanks for bein' with us. David Richards. >> Thank you. Thanks guys. >> Back with more here on theCUBE, we continue our coverage of AWS Summit from New York City right after this break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the CUBE, covering AWS re:Invent 2016. Brought to you by AWS and its ecosystem partners. (light techno music) Now, here's your host. >> And we're back, happy to welcome back to the program, regular guest on our program, David Richards, who is the founder and CEO of WANdisco. David, anything interesting happen since last time, you know, we've talked to you? >> David: Well I kind of got, you guys are a bad omen for me. Kind of left the CUBE in New York, got off a plane, got fired, and then four days later got reinstated. Apart from that, virtually nothing's happened actually. >> Hey, you know it's good coverage in The Financial Times, and then lots of press and everything, so lots more people know about WANdisco now, right? >> David: That's right, and I don't have Tourette's, I promise. (laughs) >> Alright, David, AWS re:Invent, I mean, pretty impressive show, you know we see you in a lot of shows, many of them interesting, lots of smart people but I mean, wow this is pretty impressive. They got up on stage lots of things that I'm sure interest you, give us your take of the show so far. >> It's fascinating, I mean, this sort of must have been, I wasn't there when, you know, Steve Jobs was launching the first Mac and so on, but this kind of feels, more than just a small movement. This is a large shift in enterprise, moving from On-premises to Cloud, I think it's unquestionable that's happening. I mean, I'm sure you've covered it this week on The Cube. I've not seen it, but 32,000 people are here. Virtually every single vendor that you could ever think of is exhibiting in this exhibit hall. You can barely move about the people. Our booth traffic has just been phenomenal this week, and it really feels like this is a seismic shift in the marketplace. I know we've been saying that for a while, but it really does feel that way. >> Why do you think now, is it just, we just got here, and it's the overnight success that's been ten years in the making, or was there an event or something that really, kind of, tipped it over to where we are, because clearly, it's very different than last year. >> It, sort of, Cloud V1, and you guys have been covering this for a long time, was really companies that were born in the Cloud, it was the Airbnbs, it was the Tinders, it was the Facebooks and so on. Those companies were actually made, born in the Cloud. What's now happening, clearly, is enterprise is moving to the Cloud, and Cloud 2.0 really is about a different set of requirements, a different set of customers. There are customers with massive petabyte-scale data sets that they really can't take advantage of, they can't really scale out, it's too complex for them to build many of the applications they need to build, they now have to move to Cloud, and, you know, 32,000 people are not here just for the sake of it, they're here because they have to be here, because they're moving, obviously, to Cloud, and AWS have such a massive lead, I think, in the Cloud at the moment and Enterprise Cloud, and that's probably why so many people are here. >> David, one of the interesting things to look at at this show is, Amazon has some opinions about where data lives, how it moves, where you process it, you know, all of those kind of things. You guys are kind of opinionated on those kind of things too so, you know, give us your view on those kind of, those guys. I mean, I made a comment on Twitter, it was like, "Hey, what do we call a data lake when it's in the Cloud now?" >> Jeff: Well look, that's what happens to Clouds, they-- >> One of the big reveals in Andy Jassy's talk this morning was a truck coming across the front of the stage, and I've had so many emails saying, is this real, is this a joke, are we now really moving data in a semi from On-premises into the Cloud? And, it's kind of interesting, I think it's a little bit of a gimmick to be honest with you, I think Amazon do lots of great things, there were lots of wonderful announcements today, like opening up Alexa and allowing, you know, and some of the things they're doing with serverless computers, just phenomenal, but I think a truck to move data from On-premises to Cloud, kind of feels like we're back in the 1970s to me, whereas I was talking to a, the CIO of an automotive company a couple of weeks ago. They have a problem where, you know, to move data causes an outage in their organization today of about 30 hours. Their data growth is going to be so vast, the velocity is going to be so great in the next 12 months, that if they use the existing technology today, that they have today, would take them in the region of a month to move that data. So, trucks are great for cold, archival data, well they might be great for cold, archival data, I'm sure you could figure out a better way, like the internet to move it, but for our active transactional data, data that changes and moves, that's critical to the organization, you simply can't put it on the back of a truck and basically mail it to Amazon with a Snowball, that really doesn't work, and I think the market really needs to be educated a little bit about what's possible. >> Well, and I don't know that Amazon would necessarily disagree with you. I mean, if you look at the Snowball family, they had the Snowball Edge out there, which was realization, hey I might want compute, and even, we're going to give you that new green grass Lambda, serverless type stuff, so that you can do processing where there's no network, or I can't do anything, but, I guess, we know from a physics standpoint, I understand, you know, the internet is great, but, you know, if I want to move, you know, 100 petabytes or more of data, you know, even if I'm a Telco, that's a ton of data that I need to move. So, tell me where there's this connect. >> So, the way that WANdisco's technology works, is we continually replicate data, so where every other form of data replication is time based, it requires the concept of a clock, like, even Google, who've got Google Spanner, which is kind of active/active replication, but relies on a satellite in the sky, on atomic clocks, GPS clocks on every single server. We don't have any of that reliance, we're transactional data replication, which means if something changes, it gets replicated, and that process is continuous, which means that you can basically move data applications without any downtime or interruption to service. And that's absolutely critical for what I called earlier Cloud V2, which is the enterprises moving to Cloud, they have to be able to get there without any interruption to service. Small data, yeah, you can use that kind of technology, or non-strategic data, yeah, you can use this kind of technology. Strategic data and strategic applications, trading systems, you know, you can't be 99.99% correct if somebody's got cancer or not, right? If you're using the Cloud, or machine learning technology to figure that out, you can't be, you know, almost certain, you need to be completely certain, and that requires data to be where it's supposed to be. >> So, Amazon's a partner of yours. What's it like being a partner of Amazon's these days? Give us your point on that. >> Amazon are a phenomenal company. They have to be, right, they've just built, probably the world's most valuable enterprise technology business by a country mile in ten years. I mean, it's just, you know, zero to 10 billion in (snaps fingers) the blink of an eye is just incredible. And part of their secret is, they base everything on data, and I've learned a lot from dealing with Amazon actually, everything is data driven. You know, they have this Five Why's, I'm sure you've read about it in the media, where you have to prove, through facts and figures, not sentiment, that something is so, and that's pretty uncomfortable for a lot of people. For us, it's not, and it's, working with Amazon, their requirements, the bar is so high it's made our products much much much better. They have a well-architectured review that they go through with all their partners. They're actually great to partner with, if you're not a very good company, I would, daresay, don't bother because they'll find you out very quickly. But they're a great set of guys, very very good to partner with, it's very black and white, it's very quantitative, but, yeah, they've obviously got a huge market. >> Yeah. One of the things I love about this show is that the quality of people, you know, is phenomenal, and you get such a, I mean, a huge cross-section, not only location, size, industry, but one of the things I think that is across everybody that comes here, is they're trying new things, they're open to, you know, moving forward, iterating, learning, which has been one of the things that, you know, we kind of say what holds companies back is like, oh I'm doing it the old way. So, what's your experience been with the users? Any stories you can tell from that standpoint? >> So, right down to the bottom of the organization, they're prepared to take any idea. I mean, Amazon Web Services, for goodness' sake was basically a paper that was written and presented to Jeff Bezos, right, who said, yeah that's a good idea to Jassy and said yeah, let's go off and do it. But they, virtually every innovation in their organization is somebody coming up with an idea. They have the mechanics and machinery to listen to that idea. We do it ourselves, so, we're looking at serverless compute and using Lambda so we can have replication literally as a service that you can just call, you can call Paxos, which is our core IP, it's based on Paxos, it's called DConE, so you can call that algorithm and get a replication service. So these concepts, some of the concepts that Amazon are introducing, their ability to move so quickly to introduce new products is because they have this innovative approach where they allow people, right down to the very bottom of the organization, to come up with new ideas and approaches to doing things. And it's perfectly fine for somebody at the bottom of their organization to challenge somebody at the top of the organization. In fact, they expect it. And again, that's not comfortable for a lot of people, but I like the way that they go around their business. >> I'm looking forward to, Alexa, how's my replication doing? (laughs loudly) >> Wouldn't that be great? >> Well, it's interesting you say that, we had Malcolm Gladwell on a month or two ago, and he talked about, the most powerful organizations are the ones that let the fresh ideas bubble up from the bottom because it's the people that have not been tainted by being in part of the company, that had new and creative and innovative, and a different way of looking at it, and oftentimes they get squelched, so the fact that they let those ideas come up, and also driven by data, pretty powerful. >> It's interesting being at the show this week, and I have two types of meetings, I have meetings with companies at the forefront of this Cloud revolution, companies at the forefront of building new, innovative applications that were designed for the Cloud, and then I have other meetings with companies, vendors, who have been caught out by this. They didn't see this coming, they didn't expect, you know, this sea change to happen as quickly as it's happening and they really are fighting and scrambling to know what to do, and this is everything from, you know, the big services companies, the big traditional enterprise storage companies are really struggling to understand what they're going to do with the Cloud, and they don't have those processes and procedures inside their businesses like we do. Like, they can't change and be agile and nimble and take advantage of these new products and markets that are suddenly appearing overnight. >> Yeah, it's funny, the guy from (mumbles) was talking about, they don't want to be a system integrator anymore, right now it's services integration and really changing the way you think about putting this stuff together, it's very different. >> It is very different, and, it used to be the case that you'd get, and I know we've all lived through this, you get the enterprise sales guy that turns up in the $2,000 suit and the Porsche parked outside, and comes in and sells you, you know, a piece of software, and asks you how your wife and kids are doing and all the rest of it. Look at the audience here today. They're not going to put up with, you know, that style of enterprise sales moving forward. People are buying stuff from a marketplace. The expectation is you can choose, select, deploy, and build applications yourself, and that's how many of these companies are operating today. So it's not just the sea change in the technology, the technology's facilitating completely different and new markets. >> Jeff: Behaviors, yeah. >> David, want to give you the final word on, as you leave this show, you know, your takeaways, what you want people to know. >> Clearly we're in an era where, this is going to be an Enterprise Cloud. Cloud 2.0 is all about enterprises that are taking their data from On-premises into the Cloud. It's happening very quickly. 32,000 people are here this week, they're here for a reason, because they have to be. This is a sea change in the marketplace, and I hope, well I know WANdisco's the vanguard of moving many of those enterprises from On-premises into the Cloud very quickly. >> Alright, absolutely, definitely agree with the sea change there. David Richards, founder and still CEO of WANdisco, really appreciate you joining us again. We'll be back to wrap up our coverage of today at AWS re:Invent 2016. You're watching the CUBE. (light techno music)

(silence) (upbeat techno music) >> Narrator: Live from New York, it's theCUBE, covering Big Data NYC 2016, brought to you by headline sponsors: Cisco... IBM... Nvidia, and our ecosystem sponsors. Now, here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Peter Burris. >> Welcome back to New York City, everybody. This is theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. David Richards is here. He's the CEO of WANdisco, a long time CUBE alum. Great to see you again. >> Great to be back. >> It was good fun hanging out with last night and a good surprise at the IBM event. There was good action across the street. >> Yeah, you're both looking surprisingly well, actually. >> (Dave laughs) Yes. >> Well, we also heard about the WANdisco versus theCUBE golf tournament, that apparently theCUBE just did really, really well in it and WANdisco went running away with their tail between their legs. >> Well, I talked to Furrier last night. I said, "David Richards was telling me "that he kicked your butt on the golf course." He goes, "Yeah, that's true, actually." (laughter) >> I think I've got some video proof that he actually gave me $20 live on air because, of course, his wallet was empty. (laughter) He was blowing the dust off it, you know? >> Of course, yeah, the body swerve. >> Alligator arms. >> So David, it's, again, great to see you again. You guys have been in this business since day one, and things are evolving. How are things changing for WANdisco? >> So, when we first came into this market, back in the mid-2006, 2007, and then we obviously made a bunch of acquisitions around 2011 and 2012 that took us headlong into the big data marketplace. We pretty much had a completely different business model to our business model now. Then, we had a product called Non-Stop NameNode... My God, can you imagine that? (Dave laughs) That was very focused on the Hadoop marketplace because, at that time, we believed, like everybody else, that Hadoop was going to take over the world, people were going to move to commoditized servers, open-source software, and solve the huge storage problems that they were going to have from both a cost and efficiency perspective. What I think has happened, or is happening right now, is this evolution, and it really is more of a revolution than an evolution is taking place, where workloads, and we were discussing this last night, are moving at massive scale to cloud, and people are really skipping that step, where we thought they were going to have 5, 10,000 sort of clusters on-premise, but now they have some clusters on-prem, but the bulk of the workloads are actually moving into cloud. I was just discussing with George, off-camera a few minutes ago, why that is happening, and there's a lot of applications that are very efficient. The cloud packs are up there ready to use, off the shelf, and it becomes very simplistic, and to be quite frank, do we really care anymore about all these different open-source components? Is the CIO waking up in the middle of the night thinking, oh, my God, am I going to use Ignite, am I going to use Spark, am I going to use Pig, am I going to use Hive, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? Of course they're not. They really just want to-- Let's inverse the question to ourselves. If you were going to start a competitor to Uber tomorrow, would you go and build a data center (Dave laughs) or would you just throw up a thousand servers up in the cloud and have done with it, and use all the apps that are up there? Of course, the answer's simple, so that's really what's happening. >> Well, one of the things that I... I wrote a piece of research a million years ago in which I prognosticated, the Dictionary Word of the Day, that the value of middleware was inversely proportional to the degree to which anybody knew anything about it. (Dave laughs) CIOs are waking up and asking those questions today, which is an indication that they're creating a problem. >> Yep. >> Infrastructure has to do no harm in the organization. I had a CIO friend for years who still asks his chief CTO, "To what degree is infrastructure creating a problem "for me today?" >> Yeah. >> And if it's creating a problem, it's a problem. >> Mm-hmm. >> You don't want to have to know about this stuff, and so what degree are you helping companies mask some of those... that visibility, so that people can spend less time worrying about the infrastructure? >> So, what we're focused on is a business model that has gone from direct, where we were hiring out a very large direct sales force enterprise, the classic enterprise sales guys that would go knock on doors, knock deals down, go and sell to the Global 1000s, to an indirect model, and we announced that OAM, recently with IBM, IBM Big Replicate, that is under the covers, is WANdisco Fusion, which is a great deal for us. So, our focus very much is on data movement, and data movement between data centers, for companies that want to stay on-prem, and between data centers and in and out of cloud seamlessly, and the word there is seamlessly. So, we worked very hard for the past 18 months on our product such that anybody can go to, if you want to go to the AWS Marketplace, you can, in a few clicks, begin to replicate petabyte-scale in and out of cloud, and we think, and we were discussing this last night, that the hybrid-cloud model is really fascinating, so the ability to take data on-premise, query it in cloud, get complete consistency between on-prem and cloud, but also have all the efficiency in the cloud economics, the elasticity, all the applications that exist in cloud, and I think that model is really interesting, and what's interesting is, I'm not sure that the little guys can execute in that model other than, like we're doing, veer on OAM, an indirect model. So, I'm not sure whether or not, just to go back to the conversation, CIOs are as concerned as they used to be about which Hadoop distribution, for example, they're using. I never hear that question anymore. That question was a 2012, 2013 question. What the CIOs are now concerned about is the economics of cloud, and how do I get that less than $5 per terabyte of data economics that I get in a cloud environment. >> Well, but also increasingly, they're talking about the use cases. >> David: Yeah. >> They want to get their people... They don't want to replicate the Linux or Unix versus NT wars of the 1990s, which was made possible because they were focused on what accounting package am I going to run? Am I going to run it-- >> Yeah. >> on this or that? You know, it was known process, unknown technology. In today's universe, it's unknown process, and they don't want to know as much about the technology, so they're focused on how do I get my men and women focused on use cases that are delivering value for their business. >> Exactly, and the economics question is really simple. Am I going to build a massive, partially used, elastic infrastructure on-premise or am I just going to go and use the elastic infrastructure that already exists in the cloud? That's a no-brainer. That's already happening, and the good news for us, the good news for WANdisco, is it's precisely what we do. It's a data movement problem. Now, I'm bound to say that, but it is actually a data movement problem. In this idea that you have data that changes, active transactional data, as we call it, so the active transactional data movement is a really hard problem. You can't just take a snapshot, right? A file scan and then a snapshot and then move the data, and that's the problem that all the other data replication guys have got. That's what IBM, OAM, that's why we've got strategic partnerships with companies like Oracle, like Amazon, and why I'm sure we'll be announcing things in due course with the other cloud vendors, like Google, for example, and Microsoft with their Azure products. They all have that problem, so data movement, in and out of cloud, if it's batch, if it's static, if it's archival data, easy problem to solve. There's a million and one different replication products. >> Dave: Right. >> You can use rsync if you really wanted to do that, but active transactional data, data that changes, data that moves, you know, at petabyte scale, hard problem. That's the problem that we solve. >> Because you've got speed of light problems and you're exposing yourself to data loss-- >> Yep. >> if something goes wrong. >> Peter: Fidelity is a problem. >> An eventual consistency replication model-- >> Yeah, it... >> doesn't work. You can't... If I'm query... We've got a customer that's trying to look at cardiographs, right, in and out of cloud. I mean, would you really feel comfortable in your cardiograph eventually getting into the cloud and being analyzed? You know, would you? You've got to be absolutely crystal clear that the data is completely consistent from the stuff that I'm generating on-premise versus the models that I'm building in cloud. It's vitally important. >> Well, I would imagine there's regulations, in certain industries anyway, that-- >> Oh, yeah, absolutely. >> require that eventual consistency doesn't fit, right? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, at the moment, without us, that's all you got, I'm afraid... >> Okay. >> Well, so, I'm on a mission, let me and I want to get your take on it, that we always talk about elastic infrastructure, which is a given workload, being able to scale up and scale down. >> David: Yeah. >> I think it's time to start talking about plastic infrastructure-- >> David: Oh, yeah, I like it. >> where a given workload, but a reconfiguration of how that workload is applied because of the value of data, because of integration, because of the need to be able to move in response to business needs. So we talk about plastic infrastructure, where we are reconfiguring based on policy and rules and some other things. What do you think about that? >> I love it, and the reason I love it is because, just to take a step back, the definition of hybrid cloud is... You would imagine it would be relatively simple, but to me, a hybrid means that you have... You know, it's a bit like a hybrid golf club. It's neither a driver nor an iron. It's somewhere in between. So, you have the same workload that can exist both on-premise and in the cloud. I can use both the cloud and on-premise interchangeably. What hybrid cloud actually means, for all the vendors, and this is their dirty little secret, it means that you have some workloads running against some data in the cloud and others that will run against some data on-premise. Now, why do they do that? Because they have to. Because they can't guarantee complete consistency between on-premise and cloud. Our definition of hybrid cloud is exactly the same data, if you want, between on-premise and cloud, and I love this plastic phrase, the idea of repurposing all of those applications, and they can live anywhere. It doesn't matter 'cause it's the same data. >> Yeah, so we have two terms we have to copyright here, plastic infrastructure. >> Plastic... >> What was the other one we heard? >> Data portfolio. >> Data portfolio, yeah. We'll run the tape back >> Plastic infrastructure. (laughter) >> Plastic infrastructure. >> I'm going to steal it (laughs). >> Please do, you know? But the key thing is, as these technologies get more deeply embedded within business and how the business runs, it's incumbent upon the technology leadership to be able to rapidly be able to reconfigure the infrastructure in response to what the business needs. That's not elasticity. >> Yeah. >> That's plasticity. >> I love it, absolutely. (Peter laughs) And I think you're touching on something that's changing, and what we discussed earlier, which is that CIOs aren't waking up in the middle of the night thinking, am I going to use Pig or Hive or any of those other open source components. They're thinking about the applications that they're going to build. How am I actually going to start using this data? And I think the agenda's kind of moved on, and walking around the whole... There's still a little bit of confusion. You still have people talking about infrastructure like it really still matters. I'm not absolutely sure it does. >> Well, so let's talk about that. We got a few minutes or something like that. >> Dave: It matters when it breaks, you know? >> What's that? >> It matters when it breaks. >> It sure does matter when it breaks. >> You know, but otherwise, nobody wants to think about it. >> No, yeah, because like I said earlier, it's the degree to which-- >> We have time, but I want to explore the new distribution model as well. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Let me do that, get that out, tick that box, if I can. Help me understand, David, how it all works. So you, the partnership with IBM and others, you mentioned Amazon, how does it work? You are in the IBM cloud offering? IBM is actually selling that offering? Is it a branded IBM product? >> So, it's in the big data analytics and cloud offerings. So, at the moment, IBM are very focused, as you know, on owning the platform. IBM, as a company, have the own the platform. >> Dave: Yeah, absolutely. >> So, I'm delighted to say that we're embedded into their platform. Now, they had a big launch of some products last night. >> Yeah. >> I know that they were talking about IBM Big Replicate, which is 100% white label OAM of WANdisco Fusion to solve some very specific problems, primarily around data movement. So, at the hybrid cloud, how do I punch data out into clouds, run the analytics against it, and be sure that I'm going to get the right results? That's what Big Replicate solves, and also, they're moving into mixed environments, whether they're NetApp, just kind of Teradata environment, SAS-based environments, or whether a customer already has an existing distribution of, say, Cloudera or Hortonworks, so they can live alongside that, so we can replicate data between existing deployments, where they may have already made a strategic decision to go with one of those distributions, and also be able to migrate not just into IBM Big Insights, but also into their cloud offering, so that's a great deal for us. We're not... They're selling it themselves. I mean, obviously we've done a lot of field enablement, trained 5,000 or so IBM sales rep, and, you know, if a small company like WANdisco, or a small company like virtually any of the vendors in there that are not in the Global 1000 list, the go-to market has to be indirect. >> And so you're... Totally agree, and so you're basically, if I understand it correctly, you're moving what are conventional filers into the cloud. Customers are doing that. >> Oh. >> How fast is that happening and why are they doing that? >> My, God. I mean, we have not announced this product yet, but we're in the middle of launching it. It's, at scale, moving petabyte-scale data from, and this is transactional data, so it's a hard problem to solve, right, so it's an active data... It's an active transactional data replication problem. So, a lot of... The dirty little secret in the cloud is that a lot of those NFS filers have not moved yet-- >> Right. >> And why haven't they moved? 'Cause they can't. Because you can't just... You know, if you were to travel, one of the customaries of banks and travel companies is they can't press pause in their organization, do a file scan that's going to take six months, and then turn it back on again, and hey, presto, it's in the cloud. You can't do that. So, you kind of have to... At every single migration of those filers, of any sort of data, is a hybrid model, so you have to be able to run both on-prem and cloud while that migration is happening, and there, I can tell you, are a lot, a hell of a lot of NetApp filers that are going to move very soon here, in time. >> Dave: Oh, 'cause that's the problem that you solve. Otherwise, you'd have to freeze everything, which would kill your business, so you can't do it. >> Yeah, so when human beings imagine things, we're always imagining small use cases, small sets, like moving a few files into Dropbox or something, and that's okay that I can't edit those files for the few seconds it takes to move. I took a look at a deal the other day that was 3 billion files. (Dave laughs) Right, 3 billion. You can't even... My brain can't even calculate that, right? That's a three to six month data movement, and Amazon, for example, thought of this product called Snowball, which-- >> Yeah. >> You know, no techy ever believes this story, but, of course, they FedEx a box, a ruggedized hard drive to you essentially, a ruggedized server that you pour your data into it and then you mail it back to them and they can put it there. That doesn't work, of course, for transactional data, for data that changes all the time. >> These are hard problems to solve, and I go to market, getting back to your question, it is all about indirect, you know? So, AWS, a strategic partnership, that, Oracle, a strategic partnership, that, IBM... And as I said, I'm sure that we'll be doing things with Google and Microsoft soon, and they're the five partnerships that I really care about, to be quite frank with you. >> Mm-hmm. and this comes back to this notion of infrastructure, the value of infrastructure, and just to touch on it for a second, so many years ago, when we were doing client-server, >> David: Mm-hmm. >> We would test it on a local area network and deploy it on a WAN (David laughs) and wonder why it blew up. >> David: Yeah. >> The realities of the speed of light and the practical limitations have a real impact on design, and so where infrastructure still matters is we still have to worry about design, we still have to worry about legacy financial assets, how we're deploying those assets, and I want to come back to this because we were talking earlier about data as an asset, the value of data within the business, and you don't want to be limited by the legacy as you try to find new ways of generating value out of your data, and what you guys are trying to allow is that the data can be moved in response to the use case as opposed to the use case not being made possible because of the legacy decisions about where to put your data. >> David: That's precisely it, and I don't think that any CIO, in their right mind, wants to continue with the huge maintenance costs, maintenance payments they have to make to some of those vendors, some of those NFS-based vendors. They need to shut them down. They have to figure out a way to move them into cloud so you get cloud economics, and also be able to query the data in a massively efficient way. You simply cannot do that at the moment. They simply cannot do that at the moment, so, as I said, as we continue to launch these products in the marketplace, I'm sure you'll see, at scale, some pretty large companies surprising-- You know, the two that spring to my mind are that the regulators in the US and the UK, Fenero and the FCA, are both in the process of their moving all into cloud, 100% into cloud, and I would expect to see that trend continue. I mean, the re:Invent... I don't want to talk about another-- and we're here at Strata, but the AWS re:Invent, I would expect to see several major financial service companies announcing cloud strategy. >> Yeah, and Fenero's a big user of the AWS cloud. They talk about it pretty aggressively, and really interesting use case there. So, yeah, so we got to end. What's next for you guys? You've mentioned you're going to be at re:Invent, you're going to be at World of Watson (laughs)? Where are we going to find you next? >> Both of those. Obviously, the white label with IBM is a really interesting deal for us. I can't talk about deal flow yet 'cause it's our end of quarter at the moment, but I can tell you that they're doing a pretty damn good job of selling, so we're in execution mode at the moment, where we've already announced some key partnerships. There'll be more key partnerships to come, I'm sure. We're obviously chasing deals down with some of the other cloud vendors, and I'd expect to see us announcing some interesting new customer wins in the coming days and weeks. >> Dave: Great. Well, congratulations on the momentum and the renewed strategy. I love it, and I appreciate you coming to theCUBE. >> Always a pleasure. >> All right, keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE. We're live at Big Data NYC, Strata and Hadoop World. Be right back. (spacey electronica music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit 2016. (upbeat electronic music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE. Here, live in Silicon Valley, at Amazon Web Services, AWS Summit, in Silicon Valley. I'm John Furrier, this is theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm here with my co-host. Introducing Lisa Martin on theCUBE, new host. Lisa, you look great. Our first guest here is David Richards, CEO of WANdisco. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Good to see you, John, as always. >> So, I've promised a special CUBE presentation, $20 bill here that I owe David. We played golf on Friday, our first time out in the year. He sandbagged me, he's a golfer, he's a pro. I don't play very often. There's your winnings, there you go, $20, I paid. (smooching) (laughing) I did not well challenge your swing, so it's been paid. Great fun, good to see you. >> It was great fun and I'm sorry that I cheated a little bit, mirror in the bathroom still running through your ears. >> I love the English style. Like all the inner gain and playing music on the course, it was great a great time. When we went golfing last week, we were talking, just kind of had a social get-together but we were talking about some things on the industry mind right now. And you had some interesting color around your business. We talked about your strategy of OEMing your core technology to IBM and also you have other business deals. Can you share some light on your strategy at WANdisco with your core IP, and how that relates to what's going on in this phenom called Amazon Web Services? They've been running the table on the enterprise now and certainly public cloud for years. $10 billion, Wikibon called that years ago. We see that trajectory not stopping but clearly the enterprise cloud is what they want. Do you have a deal with Amazon? Are you talking to them and what is that impact your business? >> Well I mean the wonderful thing is if you go to AWS Marketplace, you go to that front page, we're one of the feature products on the front page of the AWS Marketplace, so I think that tells you that we're pretty strategic with Amazon. We're solving a big problem for them which is the movement of data in and out of public cloud. But you asked an interesting question about our business model. When we first came into the whole big date marketplace we went for the whole direct selling thing like everybody does, but that doesn't give you a lot of operational leverage. I mean we're in accounts with IBM right now, you mentioned earlier, MR technology. At a big automotive company they have 72 enterprise sales guys, 72. We could never get to that scale any time soon. >> And you have relationships too. So it's not like they like, you know, just knocking on doors selling used cars. They are strategic high-end enterprise sales. >> Exactly. That gives us a tremendous amount of operational leverage and AWS is one of the great stories, will be one of the great IT stories of the century. To go from zero to 15 billion. If AWS was an independent company, faster than any other enterprise software company in the history of mankind, is just incredible. >> Yeah, well, enterprise obviously, they care about hybrid cloud, which you know all about through your IBM relationship. Andy Jassy at Amazon, the CEO now of Amazon. Newly announced title, he's certainly SVP, basically he's been the CEO of Amazon. He's been on record, certainly on stage, and on theCUBE saying, why do even companies need data centers? That kind of puts you out of business. You have a data center product, or is the cloud just one big data center? Will there ultimately be no data center at all? What's your thoughts? >> That's a great question. We see the cloud as just one great big data center or actually many great big data centers. And how you actually integrate those together, how you move data between data centers, how you arbitrage been cloud vendors. Are you really going to put all your eggs into one basket? You're going to put everything into AWS. Everything into Azure. I don't think you will. I think you'll need to move data around between those different data centers and then how about high availability? How do you solve that problem? Well WANdisco solves that problem as well. >> So a couple of questions for you David. One of the things that Dr. Wood said in the keynote today was friends don't let friends build data centers. So I wanted to get your take on that as well as from an IBM perspective. We just talked about the OEM opportunity that you're working there to get to those large enterprises. Does that mean that you're shifting your focus for enterprise towards IBM? Where does that leave WANdisco and Amazon as we see Amazon making a big push to the enterprise? >> So I think that was some big news that came out last week that was missed largely by the industry, which was the FCA, the financial regulatory authority in the United Kingdom, came out and said, we see no reason why banks cannot move to cloud from a regulatory perspective. That was one of the big fears that we all had which is are banks actually going to be able to move core infrastructure into a public cloud environment? Well now it turns out they can. So we're all in on cloud. I mean, we can see, if you look at the partnerships that we're focused on, it's the sort of four/five cloud vendors. It's the IBM, the AWS, Azure, Oracle, when they finally built that cloud, and so on. They're the key partnerships that we see in the marketplace. That will be our go-to market strategy. That is our go-to market strategy. >> So one of the things that's clear is the data value and you do a lot of replications. So one of the things that, I forget which CUBE segment we've done over the years, that's Hurricane Sandy I think it was, in New York City. You guys were instrumental in keeping the up-time and availability. >> Lisa mentioned, Amazon vis-a-vis IBM, obviously two different strategies, kind of converging in on the same customer. Amazon's had problems with availability zones and they're rushing and running like the wind to put up new data centers. They just announced a new data center in India just recently. Andy Jassy and team were out there kicking that off. So they're rushing to put points of presence, if you will, for lack of a better word, around the world. Does that fit into your availability concept and how do customers engage with you guys with specifically that kind of architecture developing very fast? >> I think that's a really great question. There are problems, there have been historic problems with general availability in cloud. There are lots of 15-minute outages and so on that cost billions and billions of dollars. We're working very closely and I can't say too much about it with the teams that are focused on enabling availability. Clearly the IBM OEM is very focused on the movement of data from the hybrid cloud, I'm from a data availability perspective. But there's a great deal of value in data that sits in cloud and I think you'll see us do more and more deals around general cloud availability moving forward. >> Is there a specific on that front project that you can share with us where you've really helped a customer gain significant advantage by working with AWS and facilitating those availability objectives, security compliance? >> So, one of the big use cases that we see, and it's kind of all happening at once really, is I built an on-premise infrastructure to store lots and lots of data, now I need to run compute and analytics against that data and I'm not going to build a massive redundant infrastructure on-premise in order to do that, so I need to figure out a way to move that data in and out of cloud without interruption to service. And when we are talking about large volumes of data, you simply can't move transactional data in and out of cloud using existing technology. AWS offers something called Snowball where you put it into a rugged ICE drive and then you ship it to them, but that's not really streaming analytics is it? Most of our use cases today are either involved in either the migration of data from on-premise into cloud infrastructure, or the movement of data for an atemporal basis so I can run compute against that data and taking advantage of the elastic compute available in cloud. They are really the two major use cases that web, and we're working with a lot of customers right now that have those exact problems. >> So majority of your customers are more using hybrid cloud versus all in the public cloud? >> Hybrid falls into two categories. I'm going to use hybrid in order to migrate data because I need to keep on using it while it's moving. And secondly I need to use hybrid because I need to build a compute infrastructure that I simply can't build behind firewall. I need to build it in cloud. >> So the new normal is the cloud. There was a tweet here that says, database migration, now we can have an Oracle Exadata data dispute that we're ready to throw into the river. (David laughs) Database migration is a big thing and you mentioned it on the first question that moving in and out of the cloud is a top concern for enterprises. This is one of those things, it's the elephant in the room, so to speak. No pun intended AKA Hadoop. Moving the data around is a big deal and you don't want to get a roach motel situation where you can check in and can't check out. That is the lock-in that enterprise customers are afraid of with Amazon. You're thoughts there, and what do you guys offer your customers. And if you can give some color on this whole database migration issue, real, not real? >> The big problem that the Hadoop market has had from a growth perspective is applications. And why they had a problem, well it's the concept of data gravity. The way that the AWS execs will look at their business the way that the Azure execs will look at their business at Microsoft. They will look at how much data they actually have. Data gravity. The implication being if I have data then the applications follow. The whole point of cloud is that I can build my applications on that ubiquitous infrastructure. We want to be the kings of moving data around right? Wherever the data lands is where the applications follow. If the applications follow, you have a business. If the applications don't follow, then it's probably a roach motel situation, as you so quaintly put it. But basically the data is temporal. It will move back to where the applications are going to be. So where the applications are, and it's who is going to be the king of applications, will actually win this race. >> So, question, in terms of migration, we're hearing a lot about mass migration. Amazon's even doing partner competency programs for migration. Not to trivialize it, talk to us about some of the challenges that you are helping customers overcome when they sort of don't know where to start when it comes to that data problem? >> If it's batch data, if it's stuff that I'm only going to touch if it's an archive, that I only going to touch once in a blue moon, then I can put it into Snowball and I can ship my Snowball device. I can sort of press the pause button akin to when I'm copying files into a network drive where you can't edit them, and then wait for two months, three months. Wait for them to turn up in AWS and that's fine. If it's transactional data where maybe 80% of my data set changes on a daily basis and I've got petabyte scale data to move, that's a hard problem. That requires active transactional data migration. That's a big mouthful, but that's really important for run-time transactional data. That's the problem that we solve. We enable customers, without interruption to service to move a massive scale active transactional data into cloud without any interruption of service. So I can still use it while it's moving. >> One of the things we were talking about before you came on was the whole global economy situation. I think a year and a half ago, or two years ago, you predicted the housing bubble bursting in London. You're in the London Exchange, you're a public company. Brexit, EU. These are huge issues that are going to impact, certainly North America looking healthy right now but some are saying that there's a big challenge and certainly the uncertainty of the U.S. presidency candidates that are lack of thereof. The general sentiment in the U.S. We're in a world of turmoil. So specifically the Brexit situation. You guys are in London. What does this impact your business and is that going to happen? Or give us some color and insight into what the countrymen are thinking over there. >> Okay, so, I get asked by, I live here of course, and I've lived here for 19 years. It feels like I'm recolonizing sometimes, I have to say. No, I'm joking. I get asked by a lot of Americans what the situation is with Brexit and why it happened. And for that you have to look at economics. If you sort of take a step back, in Northern Europe nine of the 10 poorest parts of Northern Europe are in the U.K. And one, only one of the top 10 richest parts is in the U.K. and that's London. So basically outside of London the U.K. has a really big problem. Those people are dissatisfied. When people are dissatisfied, if they're not benefiting from an economic upturn, if governments make it, like the conservative government for the past four years made huge cuts, those people don't benefit, and they really feel pissed off and they will vote against the government. >> John: So protest vote pretty much? >> Brexit was really, I think, a protest vote. It's people dissatisfied. It's people voting basically anti-immigration which is, being in the U.S., is a really foreign thing to us. >> But there are some implications to business. I mean obviously there's filings, there's legal issues, obviously currency. Have you been impacted positively, negatively and what is the outlook on WANdisco's business going forward with the Brexit uncertainty and/or impact? >> We're in great shape because we buy pounds. We buy labor that's now discounted by 20% in the U.K. I just got back from the U.K. If you want to go on vacation, Americans, anywhere, go to London this summer and go shopping because everything is humongously discounted for us American's right now. It's a great time to be there. So from a WANdisco perspective-- >> John: How does that affect the housing bubble too? >> I said to you about a year ago that the London housing market was akin to the jewelry shops that existed in Hong Kong a few years ago, where the Chinese used to come over and basically launder money by buying huge diamonds and bars of gold and things. If you look at the London housing market it is primarily fueled by the Saudis and by the Russians who have been buying Hyde Park Corner 100 million pounds, $160 million, well $140 million now, apartments and so on in London. Now seven, and I repeat seven housing funds in the U.K. last week canceled redemptions. Which means that they can foresee liquidity problems coming in those funds. I think you're about to see a housing crash in London, the like of which we've never seen before, and I think it would be very sad and I think that will make people really question the Brexit decision. >> John: So sell London property now people? >> Yes. >> Before the crash. >> And go shopping, I heard the go shopping. So following along that, you talked about the significant differential between London and the rest of the U.K. You're from Sheffield, you're very proud of that. You've also been proud of your business really helping to fuel that economy. How do you think Brexit is going to affect WANdisco in your home area of Sheffield. >> I don't think it really will. I think our employees there, relative terms, very well paid. They're working on interesting things. They're working very closely with the AWS team, for example, the S3 team, the MR team. And building our technology, we're liaising very closely with them. They're doing lots of interesting things. I suspect their vacations into Europe and their vacations to the United States have just gone up by about 20% which will reduce the amount of beer that they can drink. It's a big beer drinking part of the world in Sheffield. Sheffield is, in terms of cost of living, is relatively low compared to the rest of the U.K. and I think those people will be pretty happy. >> David, I appreciate you coming on theCUBE. I want to give you the final word here on the segment because you're a chief executive officer of a public company. You've been in the industry for awhile. You've seen the trials and tribulations of the Hadoop ecosystem. Now basically branded as the data ecosystem. As Hortonworks has recently announced, Hadoop Summit is now being called Data Works Summit. They're moving from the word Hadoop to Data. Clearly that's impacting all the trends. Cloud data, mobile is really the key. I want you, and I'm sure you get this question a lot, I would like you to take a minute and explain to the audience that's watching, what's this phenom of Amazon Web Services really all about? What's all the hub-bub about? Why is everyone fawning over Amazon now? When you go back five years ago, or 10 years ago when it started, they were ridiculed. I remember when this started I loved it, but they were looked at as just a kind of a tinkering environment. Now they're the behemoth and just on an unstoppable run and certainly the expansion has been fantastic under Andy Jassy's leadership. How do you explain it to normal people what's going on at Amazon? Take a minute please. >> So Amazon is, and that's a brilliant question, by the way. Amazon is the best investor-relation story ever, and I mean ever. What Bezos did is never talked about the potential size of the market. Never talked about this thing was going to generate lots of cash. He just said, you know what, we're building this little internet thing. It might, it might not work. It's not going to make any money. And then in the blink of an eye, it's a $15 billion revenue business growing faster than any other part of his business and throwing off cash like there's no tomorrow. It is just the most non-obvious story in technology, in business, of any public company ever. I mean AWS, arguably, as a stand alone entity, is almost worth as much as Oracle. An unbelievable, an unbelievable story and to do that with all the complexity. I mean mean running a public company with shareholder expectations, with investor relations where you have to constantly be positive about what's going on. For him to do that and never talk about making a profit, never talk about this becoming a multi-billion dollar segment of their business, is the most incredible thing. >> So they've been living the agile. Certainly that's the business story, but they've been living the agile story relative to announcing the slew of new products. Basic building blocks S3, EC2 to start with, as the story goes from Andy Jassy himself, and then a slew of new services. It's a tsunami of every event of new services. What is the disruptive enabler? What's the disruption under the hood for Amazon? How do you explain that? >> Well, I mean what they did is they took a really simple concept. They said, okay, storage, how do we make storage completely elastic, completely public, in a way that we can use the public internet to get data in and out of it. Right? That sounds simple. What they actually built underneath the covers was an extremely complex thing called object store. Everybody else in the industry completely missed this. Oracle missed it, Microsoft missed it, everybody missed it. Now we're all playing catch-up trying to develop this thing called object store. It's going to take over, I mean, somebody said to me, what's the relevance of Hadoop in cloud? And you have to ask that question. It's a relevant question. Do you really need it when you've got object store? Show me side-by-side, object store versus every, you know, Net Apple, Teradata, or any of those guys. Show me side-by-side the difference between the two things. There ain't a lot. >> Amazon Web Service is a company that can put incumbents out of business. David, thanks so much. As we always say, what inning are we in? It's really a double-header. Game one swept by Amazon Web Services. Game two is the enterprise and that's really the story here at Amazon Web Services Summit in Silicon Valley. Can Amazon capture the enterprise? Their focus is clear. We're theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with Lisa Martin. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: From San Jose, California, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Hadoop Summit 2016. Brought to you by Hortonworks. Here's your host, John Furrier. >> Welcome back everyone. We are here live in Silicon Valley at Hadoop Summit 2016, actually San Jose. This is theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal to the noise. Our next guest, David Richards, CEO of WANdisco. And Joel Horowitz, strategy and business development, IBM analyst. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you guys. >> Thank you for having us. >> It's great to be here, John. >> Give us the update on WANdisco. What's the relationship with IBM and WANdisco? 'Cause, you know. I can just almost see it, but I'm not going to predict. Just tell us. >> Okay, so, I think the last time we were on theCUBE, I was sitting with Re-ti-co who works very closely with Joe. And we began to talk about how our partnership was evolving. And of course, we were negotiating an OEM deal back then, so we really couldn't talk about it very much. But this week, I'm delighted to say that we announced, I think it's called IBM Big Replicate? >> Joel: Big Replicate, yeah. We have a big everything and Replicate's the latest edition. >> So it's going really well. It's OEM'd into IBM's analytics, big data products, and cloud products. >> Yeah, I'm smiling and smirking because we've had so many conversations, David, on theCUBE with you on and following your business through the bumpy road or the wild seas of big data. And it's been a really interesting tossing and turning of the industry. I mean, Joel, we've talked about it too. The innovation around Hadoop and then the massive slowdown and realization that cloud is now on top of it. The consumerization of the enterprise created a little shift in the value proposition, and then a massive rush to build enterprise grade, right? And you guys had that enterprise grade piece of it. IBM, certainly you're enterprise grade. You have enterprise everywhere. But the ecosystem had to evolve really fast. What happened? Share with the audience this shift. >> So, it's classic product adoption lifecycle and the buying audience has changed over that time continuum. In the very early days when we first started talking more at these events, when we were talking about Hadoop, we all really cared about whether it was Pig and Hive. >> You once had a distribution. That's a throwback. Today's Thursday, we'll do that tomorrow. >> And the buying audience has changed, and consequently, the companies involved in the ecosystem have changed. So where we once used to really care about all of those different components, we don't really care about the machinations below the application layer anymore. Some people do, yes, but by and large, we don't. And that's why cloud for example is so successful because you press a button, and it's there. And that, I think, is where the market is going to very, very quickly. So, it makes perfect sense for a company like WANdisco who've got 20, 30, 40, 50 sales people to move to a company like IBM that have 4 or 5,000 people selling our analytics products. >> Yeah, and so this is an OEM deal. Let's just get that news on the table. So, you're an OEM. IBM's going to OEM their product and brand it IBM, Big Replication? >> Yeah, it's part of our Big Insights Portfolio. We've done a great job at growing this product line over the last few years, with last year talking about how we decoupled all the value-as from the core distribution. So I'm happy to say that we're both part of the ODPI. It's an ODPI-certified distribution. That is Hadoop that we offer today for free. But then we've been adding not just in terms of the data management capabilities, but the partnership here that we're announcing with WANdisco and how we branded it as Big Replicate is squarely aimed at the data management market today. But where we're headed, as David points out, is really much bigger, right? We're talking about support for not only distributed storage and data, but we're also talking about a hybrid offering that will get you to the cloud faster. So not only does Big Replicate work with HDFS, it also works with the Swift objects store, which as you know, kind of the underlying storage for our cloud offering. So what we're hoping to see from this great partnership is as you see around you, Hadoop is a great market. But there's a lot more here when you talk about managing data that you need to consider. And I think hybrid is becoming a lot larger of a story than simply distributing your processing and your storage. It's becoming a lot more about okay, how do you offset different regions? How do you think through that there are multiple, I think there's this idea that there's one Hadoop cluster in an enterprise. I think that's factually wrong. I think what we're observing is that there's actually people who are spinning up, you know, multiple Hadoop distributions at the line of business for maybe a campaign or for maybe doing fraud detection, or maybe doing log file, whatever. And managing all those clusters, and they'll have Cloud Arrow. They'll have Hortonworks. They'll have IBM. They'll have all of these different distributions that they're having to deal with. And what we're offering is sanity. It's like give me sanity for how I can actually replicate that data. >> I love the name Big Replicate, fantastic. Big Insights, Big Replicate. And so go to market, you guys are going to have bigger sales force. It's a nice pop for you guys. I mean, it's good deal. >> We were just talking before we came on air about sort of a deal flow coming through. It's coming through, this potential deal flow coming through, which has been off the charts. I mean, obviously when you turn on the tap, and then suddenly you enable thousands and thousands of sales people to start selling your products. I mean, IBM, are doing a great job. And I think IBM are in a unique position where they own both cloud and on-prem. There are very few companies that own both the on-prem-- >> They're going to need to have that connection for the companies that are going hybrid. So hybrid cloud becomes interesting right now. >> Well, actually, it's, there's a theory that says okay, so, and we were just discussing this, the value of data lies in analytics, not in the data itself. It lies in you've been able to pull out information from that data. Most CIOs-- >> If you can get the data. >> If you can get the data. Let's assume that you've got the data. So then it becomes a question of, >> That's a big assumption. Yes, it is. (laughs) I just had Nancy Handling on about metadata. No, that's an issue. People have data they store they can't do anything with it. >> Exactly. And that's part of the problem because what you actually have to have is CPU slash processing power for an unknown amount of data any one moment in time. Now, that sounds like an elastic use case, and you can't do elastic on-prem. You can only do elastic in cloud. That means that virtually every distribution will have to be a hybrid distribution. IBM realized this years ago and began to build this hybrid infrastructure. We're going to help them to move data, completely consistent data, between on-prem and cloud, so when you query things in the cloud, it's exactly the same results and the correct results you get. >> And also the stability too on that. There's so many potential, as we've discussed in the past, that sounds simple and logical. To do an enterprise grade is pretty complex. And so it just gives a nice, stable enterprise grade component. >> I mean, the volumes of data that we're talking about here are just off the charts. >> Give me a use case of a customer that you guys are working with, or has there been any go-to-market activity or an ideal scenario that you guys see as a use case for this partnership? >> We're already seeing a whole bunch of things come through. >> What's the number one pattern that bubbles up to the top? Use case-wise. >> As Joel pointed out, that he doesn't believe that any one company just has one version of Hadoop behind their firewall. They have multiple vendors. >> 100% agree with that. >> So how do you create one, single cluster from all of those? >> John: That's one problem you solved. >> That's of course a very large problem. Second problem that we're seeing in spades is I have to move data to cloud to run analytics applications against it. That's huge. That required completely guaranteed consistent data between on-prem and cloud. And I think those two use cases alone account for pretty much every single company. >> I think there's even a third here. I think the third is actually, I think frankly there's a lot of inefficiencies in managing just HDFS and how many times you have to actually copy data. If I looked across, I think the standard right now is having like three copies. And actually, working with Big Replicate and WANdisco, you can actually have more assurances and actually have to make less copies across the cluster and actually across multiple clusters. If you think about that, you have three copies of the data sitting in this cluster. Likely, an analysts have a dragged a bunch of the same data in other clusters, so that's another multiple of three. So there's amount of waste in terms of the same data living across your enterprise. That I think there's a huge cost-savings component to this as well. >> Does this involve anything with Project Atlas at all? You guys are working with, >> Not yet, no. >> That project? It's interesting. We're seeing a lot of opening up the data, but all they're doing is creating versions of it. And so then it becomes version control of the data. You see a master or a centralization of data? Actually, not centralize, pull all the data in one spot, but why replicate it? Do you see that going on? I guess I'm not following the trend here. I can't see the mega trend going on. >> It's cloud. >> What's the big trend? >> The big trend is I need an elastic infrastructure. I can't build an elastic infrastructure on-premise. It doesn't make economic sense to build massive redundancy maybe three or four times the infrastructure I need on premise when I'm only going to use it maybe 10, 20% of the time. So the mega trend is cloud provides me with a completely economic, elastic infrastructure. In order to take advantage of that, I have to be able to move data, transactional data, data that changes all the time, into that cloud infrastructure and query it. That's the mega trend. It's as simple as that. >> So moving data around at the right time? >> And that's transaction. Anybody can say okay, press pause. Move the data, press play. >> So if I understand this correctly, and just, sorry, I'm a little slow. End of the day today. So instead of staging the data, you're moving data via the analytics engines. Is that what you're getting at? >> You use data that's being transformed. >> I think you're accessing data differently. I think today with Hadoop, you're accessing it maybe through like Flume or through Oozy, where you're building all these data pipelines that you have to manage. And I think that's obnoxious. I think really what you want is to use something like Apache Spark. Obviously, we've made a large investment in that earlier, actually, last year. To me, what I think I'm seeing is people who have very specific use cases. So, they want to do analysis for a particular campaign, and so they may just pull a bunch of data into memory from across their data environment. And that may be on the cloud. It may be from a third-party. It may be from a transactional system. It may be from anywhere. And that may be done in Hadoop. It may not, frankly. >> Yeah, this is the great point, and again, one of the themes on the show is, this is a question that's kind of been talked about in the hallways. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Is there are some people saying that there's really no traction for Hadoop in the cloud. And that customers are saying, you know, it's not about just Hadoop in the cloud. I'm going to put in S3 or object store. >> You're right. I think-- >> Yeah, I'm right as in what? >> Every single-- >> There's no traction for Hadoop in the cloud? >> I'll tell you what customers tell us. Customers look at what they actually need from storage, and they compare whatever it is, Hadoop or any on-premise proprietor storage array and then look at what S3 and Swift and so on offer to them. And if you do a side-by-side comparison, there isn't really a difference between those two things. So I would argue that it's a fact that functionally, storage in cloud gives you all the functionality that any customer would need. And therefore, the relevance of Hadoop in cloud probably isn't there. >> I would add to that. So it really depends on how you define Hadoop. If you define Hadoop by the storage layer, then I would say for sure. Like HDFS versus an objects store, that's going to be a difficult one to find some sort of benefit there. But if you look at Hadoop, like I was talking to my friend Blake from Netflix, and I was asking him so I hear you guys are kind of like replatforming on Spark now. And he was basically telling me, well, sort of. I mean, they've invested a lot in Pig and Hive. So if you think it now about Hadoop as this broader ecosystem which you brought up Atlas, we talk about Ranger and Knox and all the stuff that keeps coming out, there's a lot of people who are still invested in the peripheral ecosystem around Hadoop as that central point. My argument would be that I think there's still going to be a place for distributed computing kind of projects. And now whether those will continue to interface through Yarn via and then down to HDFS, or whether that'll be Yarn on say an objects store or something and those projects will persist on their own. To me that's kind of more of how I think about the larger discussion around Hadoop. I think people have made a lot of investments in terms of that ecosystem around Hadoop, and that's something that they're going to have to think through. >> Yeah. And Hadoop wasn't really designed for cloud. It was designed for commodity servers, deployment with ease and at low cost. It wasn't designed for cloud-based applications. Storage in cloud was designed for storage in cloud. Right, that's with S3. That's what Swift and so on were designed specifically to do, and they fulfill most of those functions. But Joel's right, there will be companies that continue to use-- >> What's my whole argument? My whole argument is that why would you want to use Hadoop in the cloud when you can just do that? >> Correct. >> There's object store out. There's plenty of great storage opportunities in the cloud. They're mostly shoe-horning Hadoop, and I think that's, anyway. >> There are two classes of customers. There were customers that were born in the cloud, and they're not going to suddenly say, oh you know what, we need to build our own server infrastructure behind our own firewall 'cause they were born in the cloud. >> I'm going to ask you guys this question. You can choose to answer or not. Joel may not want to answer it 'cause he's from IBM and gets his wrist slapped. This is a question I got on DM. Hadoop ecosystem consolidation question. People are mailing in the questions. Now, keep sending me your questions if you don't want your name on it. Hold on, Hadoop system ecosystem. When will this start to happen? What is holding back the M and A? >> So, that's a great question. First of all, consolidation happens when you sort of reach that tipping point or leveling off, that inflection point where the market levels off, and we've reached market saturation. So there's no more market to go after. And the big guys like IBM and so on come in-- >> Or there was never a market to begin with. (laughs) >> I don't think that's the case, but yes, I see the point. Now, what's stopping that from happening today, and you're a naughty boy by the way for asking this question, is a lot of these companies are still very well funded. So while they still have cash on the balance sheet, of course, it's very, very hard for that to take place. >> You picked up my next question. But that's a good point. The VCs held back in 2009 after the crash of 2008. Sequoia's memo, you know, the good times role, or RIP good times. They stopped funding companies. Companies are getting funded, continually getting funding. Joel. >> So I don't think you can look at this market as like an isolated market like there's the Hadoop market and then there's a Spark market. And then even there's like an AI or cognitive market. I actually think this is all the same market. Machine learning would not be possible if you didn't have Hadoop, right? I wouldn't say it. It wouldn't have a resurgence that it has had. Mahout was one of the first machine learning languages that caught fire from Ted Dunning and others. And that kind of brought it back to life. And then Spark, I mean if you talk to-- >> John: I wouldn't say it creates it. Incubated. >> Incubated, right. >> And created that Renaissance-like experience. >> Yeah, deep learning, Some of those machine learning algorithms require you to have a distributed kind of framework to work in. And so I would argue that it's less of a consolidation, but it's more of an evolution of people going okay, there's distributed computing. Do I need to do that on-premise in this Hadoop ecosystem, or can I do that in the cloud, or in a growing Spark ecosystem? But I would argue there's other things happening. >> I would agree with you. I love both areas. My snarky comment there was never a market to begin with, what I'm saying there is that the monetization of commanding the hill that everyone's fighting for was just one of many hills in a bigger field of hills. And so, you could be in a cul-de-sac of being your own champion of no paying customers. >> What you have-- >> John: Or a free open-source product. >> Unlike the dotcom era where most of those companies were in the public markets, and you could actually see proper valuations, most of the companies, the unicorns now, most are not public. So the valuations are really difficult to, and the valuation metrics are hard to come by. There are only few of those companies that are in the public market. >> The cash story's right on. I think to Joel' point, it's easy to pivot in a market that's big and growing. Just 'cause you're in the wrong corner of the market pivoting or vectoring into the value is easier now than it was 10 years ago. Because, one, if you have a unicorn situation, you have cash on the bank. So they have a good flush cash. Your runway's so far out, you can still do your thing. If you're a startup, you can get time to value pretty quickly with the cloud. So again, I still think it's very healthy. In my opinion, I kind of think you guys have good analysis on that point. >> I think we're going to see some really cool stuff happen working together, and especially from what I'm seeing from IBM, in the fact that in the IT crowd, there is a behavioral change that's happening that Hadoop opened the door to. That we're starting to see more and more It professionals walk through. In the sense that, Hadoop has opened the door to not thinking of data as a liability, but actually thinking about data differently as an asset. And I think this is where this market does have an opportunity to continue to grow as long as we don't get carried away with trying to solve all of the old problems that we solved for on-premise data management. Like if we do that, then we're just, then there will be a consolidation. >> Metadata is a huge issue. I think that's going to be a big deal. And on the M and A, my feeling on the M and A is that, you got to buy something of value, so you either have revenue, which means customers, and or initial property. So, in a market of open source, it comes back down to the valuation question. If you're IBM or Oracle or HP, they can pivot too. And they can be agile. Now slower agile, but you know, they can literally throw some engineers at it. So if there's no customers in I and P, they can replicate, >> Exactly. >> That product. >> And we're seeing IBM do that. >> They don't know what they're buying. My whole point is if there's nothing to buy. >> I think it depends on, ultimately it depends on where we see people deriving value, and clearly in WANdisco, there's a huge amount of value that we're seeing our customers derive. So I think it comes down to that, and there is a lot of IP there, and there's a lot of IP in a lot of these companies. I think it's just a matter of widening their view, and I think WANdisco is probably the earliest to do this frankly. Was to recognize that for them to succeed, it couldn't just be about Hadoop. It actually had to expand to talk about cloud and talk about other data environments, right? >> Well, congratulations on the OEM deal. IBM, great name, Big Replicate. Love it, fantastic name. >> We're excited. >> It's a great product, and we've been following you guys for a long time, David. Great product, great energy. So I'm sure there's going to be a lot more deals coming on your. Good strategy is OEM strategy thing, huh? >> Oh yeah. >> It reduces sales cost. >> Gives us tremendous operational leverage. Getting 4,000, 5,000-- >> You get a great partner in IBM. They know the enterprise, great stuff. This is theCUBE bringing all the action here at Hadoop. IBM OEM deal with WANdisco all happening right here on theCUBE. Be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Narrator: From San Jose, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's The Cube, covering Big Data SV 2016. Now your hosts, John Furrier and Peter Burris. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Silicon Valley for Big Data Week, Big Data SV Strata Hadoop. This is The Cube, SiliconANGLE's flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signals from the noise. I'm John Furrier, my co-host is Peter Burris. Our next guest is Ritika Gunnar, VP of Data and Analytics at IBM and David Richards is the CEO of WANdisco. Welcome to The Cube, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> So, okay, IBM and WANdisco, why are you guys here? What are you guys talking about? Obviously, partnership. What's the story? >> So, you know what WANdisco does, right? Data replication, active-active replication of data. For the past twelve months, we've been realigning our products to a market that we could see rapidly evolving. So if you had asked me twelve months ago what we did, we were talking about replicating just Hadoop, but we think the market is going to be a lot more than that. I think Mike Olson famously said that this Hadoop was going to disappear and he was kind of right because the ecosystem is evolving to be a much greater stack that involves applications, cloud, completely heterogeneous storage environment, and as that happens the partnerships that we would need have to move on from just being, you know, the sort of Hadoop-specific distribution vendors to actually something that can deliver a complete solution to the marketplace. And very clearly, IBM has a massive advantage in the number of people, the services, ecosystem, infrastructure, in order to deliver a complete solution to customers, so that's really why we're here. >> If you could talk about the stack comment, because this is something that we're seeing. Mike Olson's kind of being political when he says make it invisible, but the reality is there is more to big data than Hadoop. There's a lot of other stuff going on. Call it stack, call it ecosystem. A lot of great things are growing, we just had Gaurav on from SnapLogic said, "everyone's winning." I mean, I just love that's totally true, but it's not just Hadoop. >> It's about Alldata and it's about all insight on that data. So when you think about Alldata, Alldata is a very powerful thing. If you look at what clients have been trying to do thus far, they've actually been confined to the data that may be in their operational systems. With the advent of Hadoop, they're starting to bring in some structured and unstructured data, but with the advent of IOT systems, systems of engagement, systems of records and trying to make sense of all of that, Alldata is a pretty powerful thing. When I think of Alldata, I think of three things. I think of data that is not only on premises, which is where a lot of data resides today, but data that's in the cloud, where data is being generated today and where a majority of the growth is. When I think of Alldata, I think of structured data, that is in your traditional operational systems, unstructured and semi-structured data from IOT systems et cetera, and when I think of Alldata, I think of not just data that's on premises for a lot of our clients, but actually external data. Data where we can correlate data with, for example, an acquisition that we just did within IBM with The Weather Company or augmenting with partnerships like Twitter, et cetera, to be able to extract insight from not just the data that resides within the walls of your organization, but external data as well. >> The old expression is if you want to go fast, do it alone, if you want to go deeper and broader and more comprehensive, do it as a team. >> That's right. >> That expression can be applied to data. And you look at The Weather data, you think, hmmm, that's an outlier type acquisition, but when you think about the diversity of data, that becomes a really big deal. And the question I want to ask you guys is, and Ritika, we'll start with you, there's always a few pressure points we've seen in big data. When that pressure is relieved, you've seen growth, and one was big data analytics kind of stalled a little bit, the winds kind of shifted, eye of the storm, whatever you want to call it, then cloud comes in. Cloud is kind of enabling that to go faster. Now, a new pressure point that we're seeing is go faster with digital transformation. So Alldata kind of brings us to all digital. And I know IBM is all about digitizing everything and that's kind of the vision. So you now have the pressure of I want all digital, I need data driven at the center of it, and I've got the cloud resource, so kind of the perfect storm. What's your thoughts on that? Do you see that similar picture? And then does that put the pressure on, say, WANdisco, say hey, I need replication, so now you're under the hood? Is that kind of where this is coming together? >> Absolutely. When I think about it, it's about giving trusted data and insights to everyone within the organization, at the speed in which they need it. So when you think about that last comment of, "At the speed in which they need it," that is the pressure point of what it means to have a digitally transformed business. That means being able to make insights and decisions immediately and when we look at what our objective is from an IBM perspective, it's to be able to enable our clients to be able to generate those immediate insights, to be able to transform their business models and to be able to provide the tooling and the skills necessary, whether we have it organically, inorganically, or through partnerships, like with WANdisco to be able to do that. And so with WANdisco, we believe we really wanted to be able to activate where that data resides. When I talk about Alldata and activation of that data, WANdisco provided to us complementary capabilities to be able to activate that data where it resides with a lot of the capabilities that they're providing through their fusion. So, being able to have and enable our end-users to have that digitally infused set of reactive type of applications is absolutely something... >> It's like David, we talk about, and maybe I'm oversimplifying your value proposition, but I always look at WANdisco as kind of the five nines of data, right? You guys make stuff work, and that's the theme here this year, people just want it to work, right? They don't want to have it down, right? >> Yeah, we're seeing, certainly, an uptick in understanding about what high availability, what continuous availability means in the context of Hadoop, and I'm sure we'll be announcing some pretty big deals moving forward. But we've only just got going with IBM. I would, the market should expect a number of announcements moving forward as we get going with this, but here's the very interesting question associated with cloud. And just to give you a couple of quick examples, we are seeing an increasing number of Global 1,000 companies, Fortune 100 companies move to cloud. And that's really important. If you would have asked me 12 months ago, how is the market going to shape up, I'd have said, well, most CIO's want to move to cloud. It's already happening. So, FINRA, the major financial regulator in the United States is moving to cloud, publicly announced it. The FCA in the UK publicly announced they are moving 100% to cloud. So this creates kind of a microcosm of a problem that we solve, which is how do you move transactional data from on-premise to cloud and create a sort of hybrid environment. Because with the migration, you have to build a hybrid cloud in order to do that anyway. So, if it's just archive systems, you can package it on a disk drive and post it, right? If we're talking about transactional data, i.e, stuff that you want to use, so for example, a big travel company can't stop booking flights while they move their data into the cloud, right? They would take six months to move petabyte scale data into cloud. We solve that problem. We enable companies to move transactional data from on-premise into cloud, without any interruption to services. >> So not six months? >> No, not six months. >> Six hours? >> And you can keep on using the data while it is in transit. So we've been looking for a really simplistic problem, right, to explain this really complex algorithm that we've got that you know does this active-active replication stuff. That's it, right? It's so simple, and nobody else can do it. >> So no downtime, no disruption to their business? >> No, and you can use the cloud or you can use the on-prem applications while the data is in transit. >> So when you say all cloud, now we're on a theme, Alldata, all digital, all cloud, there's a nuance there because most, and we had Gaurav from SnapLogic talk about it, there's always going to be an on-prem component. I mean, probably not going to see 100% everyone move to the cloud, public cloud, but cloud, you mean hybrid cloud essentially, with some on-prem component. I'm sure you guys see that with Bluemix as well, that you've got some dabbling in the public cloud, but ultimately, it's one resource pool. That's essentially what you're saying. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And I think it's really important. One of the things that's very attractive e about the WANdisco solution is that it does provide that hybridness from the on-premises to cloud and that being able to activate that data where it resides, but being able to do that in a heterogeneous fashion. Architectures are very different in the cloud than they are on premises. When you look at it, your data like may be as simple as Swift object store or as S3, and you may be using elements of Hadoop in there, but the architectures are changing. So the notion of being able to handle hybrid solutions both on-premises and cloud with the heterogeneous capability in a non-invasive way that provides continuous data is something that is not easily achieved, but it's something that every enterprise needs to take into account. >> So Ritika, talk about the why the WANdisco partnership, and specifically, what are some of the conversations you have with customers? Because, obviously there's, it sounds like, the need to go faster and have some of this replication active-active and kind of, five nines if you will, of making stuff not go down or non-disruptive operations or whatever the buzzword is, but you know, what's the motivation from your standpoint? Because IBM is very customer-centric. What are some of the conversations and then how does WANdisco fit into those conversations? >> So when you look at the top three use cases that most clients use for even Hadoop environments or just what's going on in the market today, the top three use cases are you know, can I build a logical data warehouse? Can I build areas for discovery or analytical discovery? Can I build areas to be able to have data archiving? And those top three solutions in a hybrid heterogeneous environment, you need to be able to have active-active access to the data where that data resides. And therefore, we believe, from an IBM perspective, that we want to be able to provide the best of breed regardless of where that resides. And so we believe from a WANdisco perspective, that WANdisco has those capabilities that are very complementary to what we need for that broader skills and tooling ecosystem and hence why we have formed this partnership. >> Unbelievably, in the market, we're also seeing and it feels like the Hadoop market's just got going, but we're seeing migrations from distributions like Cloudera into cloud. So you know, those sort of lab environments, the small clusters that were being set up. I know this is slightly controversial, and I'll probably get darts thrown at me by Mike Olson, but we are seeing pretty large-scale migration from those sort of labs that were set up initially. And as they progress, and as it becomes mission-critical, they're going to go to companies like IBM, really, aren't they, in order to scale up their infrastructure? They're going to move the data into cloud to get hyperscale. For some of these cases that Ritika was just talking about so we are seeing a lot of those migrations. >> So basically, Hadoop, there's some silo deployments of POC's that need to be integrated in. Is that what you're referring to? I mean, why would someone do that? They would say okay, probably integration costs, probably other solutions, data. >> If you do a roll-your-own approach, where you go and get some open-source software, you've got to go and buy servers, you've got to go and train staff. We've just seen one of our customers, a big bank, two years later get servers. Two years to get servers, to get server infrastructure. That's a pretty big barrier, a practical barrier to entry. Versus, you know, I can throw something up in Bluemix in 30 minutes. >> David, you bring up a good point, and I want to just expand on that because you have a unique history. We know each other, we go way back. You were on The Cube when, I think we first started seven years ago at Hadoop World. You've seen the evolution and heck, you had your own distribution at one point. So you know, you've successfully navigated the waters of this ecosystem and you had gray IP and then you kind of found your swim lanes and you guys are doing great, but I want to get your perspective on this because you mentioned Cloudera. You've seen how it's evolving as it goes mainstream, as you know, Peter says, "The big guys are coming in and with power." I mean, IBM's got a huge spark investment and it's not just you know, lip service, they're actually donating a ton of code and actually building stuff so, you've got an evolutionary change happening within the industry. What's your take on the upstarts like Cloudera and Hortonworks and the Dishrow game? Because that now becomes an interesting dynamic because it has to integrate well. >> I think there will always be a market for the distribution of opensource software. As that sort of, that layer in the stack, you know, certainly Cloudera, Hortonworks, et cetera, are doing a pretty decent job of providing a distribution. The Hadoop marketplace, and Ritika laid this on pretty thick as well, is not Hadoop. Hadoop is a component of it, but in cloud we talk about object store technology, we talk about Swift, we talk about S3. We talk about Spark, which can be run stand-alone, you don't necessarily need Hadoop underneath it. So the marketplace is being stretched to such a point that if you were to look at the percentage of the revenue that's generated from Hadoop, it's probably less than one percent. I talked 12 months ago with you about the whale season, the whales are coming. >> Yeah, they're here. >> And they're here right now, I mean... >> (laughs) They're mating out in the water, deals are getting done. >> I'm not going to deal with that visual right now, but you're quite right. And I love the Peter Drucker quote which is, "Strategy is a commodity, execution is an art." We're now moving into the execution phase. You need a big company in order to do that. You can't be a five hundred or a thousand person... >> Is Cloudera holding onto dogma with Hadoop or do they realize that the ecosystem is building around them? >> I think they do because they're focused on the application layer, but there's a lot of competition in the application layer. There's a little company called IBM, there's a little company called Microsoft and the little company called Amazon that are kind of focused on that as well, so that's a pretty competitive environment and your ability to execute is really determined by the size of the organization to be quite frank. >> Awesome, well, so we have Hadoop Summit coming up in Dublin. We're going to be in Ireland next month for Hadoop Summit with more and more coverage there. Guys, thanks for the insight. Congratulations on the relationship and again, WANdisco, we know you guys and know what you guys have done. This seems like a prime time for you right now. And IBM, we just covered you guys at InterConnect. Great event. Love The Weather Company data, as a weather geek, but also the Apple announcement was really significant. Having Apple up on stage with IBM, I think that is really, really compelling. And that was just not a Barney deal, that was real. And the fact that Apple was on stage was a real testament to the direction you guys are going, so congratulations. This is The Cube, bringing you all the action, here live in Silicon Valley here for Big Data Week, BigData SV, and Strata Hadoop. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Hallowell to California, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi and welcome to theCUBE. I'm your host Sonia Tagare and we're here at the Palo Alto Cube studios for an amazing conversation about women in tech and bringing men to the conversation. With us today is our guest, Eva Helen, who is the CEO and founder of EQ Inspiration and the Board Director of PrinterLogic. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> So let's get started, so give us a brief overview of your background. >> So, I was actually in tech for close to two decades. I came from Sweden in the mid-90's and joined a hardware company here in Silicon Valley and started selling hardware. One thing led to the next and then I was part of starting two software companies, both with good exits. The last one we exited in 2015 when it was acquired by Citrix. And the name of that company was Sanbolic. So I was deep in the trenches of tech for many, many years. >> That's very inspiring. And from tech, you went to being an advocate for women in tech, so tell us a little about that. >> Well, it was interesting, I mean, I was a woman the whole time myself but I didn't take the time to reflect over a lot of what the other women were experiencing. When you run a business, your head is down and you work really, really hard all the time so, I didn't come up for air very often. But as we had been transitioned, we were on the East Coast and we were transitioned back to Silicon Valley, I started to really network as much as I could and met a lot of women, enjoyed a lot of organizations and went to tons of events. And I thought they were fantastic, and it was great energy and women sharing things and stories with each other and supporting each other, but I couldn't figure out where the guys were. And I'd been working in this industry for so long, I knew that all the decisions were made by men and I didn't understand why they weren't part of the discussion. So I went to a couple of guys and I said, well, if I start something called Women in Tech events for guys, will you come? And they're like, absolutely, we would love that. So, said and done, a couple of years ago, I did my first EQ Inspiration. Which is an event where 50% of the audience is men, 50% are women and in a typical format, I will have experts, or in the beginning, I wasn't en expert myself at all. So I would have experts come in and speak and then eventually I could take over some of those pieces, talking about equality, good things to do for women and so on. And then, I would always have a panel of men that I would ask, what are you actively and actually doing for women in the workplace? Your peers or your colleagues, your staff, how are you helping them? And all these amazing stories were coming out. So I thought how can I get more of those stories and make them available to a broader audience? So that's kind of where I was in the beginning of last winter. >> And what spurred you to become a part of this movement? Was it an experience you had in your workplace or just something you saw in the larger women in tech community? >> Well, I think I'd had my own experiences, obviously, since I'd been in the industry for so long. And every woman has a way to tackle being the only women in the room, the only one in the meeting, the only one at dinner and so on. We all have ways to tackle and deal with that but, like I said, I hadn't really reflected much over what other women were experiencing. So, just by hearing what all these other women were dealing with, I thought I kind of need to help here. Because, I'm not saying that my ways of dealing with it were the best or the way that I would recommend for others to be. I can be super pushy, very assertive and a lot of women are not like that. So, my model didn't necessarily work for them. So I had to try to figure out how can I actually help them. And because there are so many ways that women are supporting each other already, that are functioning really, really well, forums for talking about delicate things and, you know, more open things, I wanted to bring the men into the conversation because they're ultimately 50% of the population and a lot more than that in the workplace. So I just we needed to engage them to make them feel more safe in how they are supporting us. >> And do you find that the men who do come to these events, are they more at the leadership level or are they varied? Who generally shows up? >> So it varies a lot but if I could take a step back just to what I did when I said, okay let me find out more of these stories. Because that will answer your question. I did 60-hour long interviews with men in tech. At all levels of the organization. From CEO to individual contributors. And then I took all of that scripted material and I broke these people down into seven characters of men. And I say generously because we, as women, have been categorized into two categories by most men, for thousands of years. Seven characters, with different names. And at the top of what I call my matrix, we have Mark, James, Sameer, that are advocates for women. Then we have Memo, Al and Chris, that are allies of women. And at the bottom of the matrix, we have Richard, who is opposed to change and concerned that women will take over men's positions in the workplace. But by doing that categorization, I can see that it doesn't matter if it's a leader or if it's an individual contributor, it's a range of men that come to my events but typically, they're sitting at the higher end of the matrix. Not the lower part. Because they're still a little hesitant to thinking, well, what can I do? How can I help? >> Right, so it doesn't matter exactly what their exact position is, but how far up the matrix they are or how far low the matrix they are. >> Yes, exactly. Exactly. >> So can you tell us a little bit more about the different categories in the matrix and why you found those seven categories? >> Yeah sure. So, if we start from the top, the top character is called Mark and Mark is, he's really an expert. He has been working in HR or he's a diversity consultant or he can be a man who has lots of friends and he's very comfortable speaking up on behalf of women in front of these men. But he doesn't just address women or mixed groups, he actually talks directly to groups of men. The next category is James. James is a change agent. He's a leader. He has a very visible presence in the organization and he will take on things like culture change. If he notices in his organization that the culture is not exactly what it should be to promote equality, he will actually get to the bottom of it and dig deep to figure things out and solve them. Maybe by hiring an external consultant like a Mark. The next level is Sameer, he's the sponsor. And there are lots of women out there that have had great sponsors and often at the EQ Inspiration event, I'll bring up a women who talks about a sponsorship story. The sponsors make women visible and they also put their own name on the line. They're very comfortable promoting women. And often, they have experienced being an outsider themselves at some point, so they're very empathetic. The next level, now we get into the allies, and the allies are Memo, Al and Chris. Memo is the mentor. Mentorship is a very interesting thing because it's a big step up from the level below. It really is not necessarily promoting, but really asking a woman what can I do to help? How can I help you? And there's a lot of informal mentorships that are going on and there are lots of formal mentorship programs out there. It's really important to formalize mentorship programs in organizations where there's a greater fear among men to do something that's not right. And I think that a lot of the informal mentorships are suffering because of the Me Too movement and all the negative press that we have out there. The next to allies are Al and Chris. And these two categories have the greatest potential to actually grow into something bigger, because the objective, of course, is to climb from one step to the next on the matrix. And Al is a happy-go-lucky guy. He says I love working with women, I think it's fantastic, just tell me what to do, I would love to help. But he's not necessarily sure what to do. And Chris, the guy below him, he gets uncomfortable more easily. So, if a situation gets a little sticky in the office, when they start talking about equality or something like that, he might actually withdraw and close his door and say, no I don't want to be part of this discussion. But if you talk to Chris, he's already helping somebody who's close to him. Maybe his sister, maybe his partner, his wife or his daughter. And it's really interesting when you get to the point where they understand and they realize, they go oh, I am actually doing something. Maybe it's not helping somebody in the workplace but maybe it's somebody who's close to me. And then Richard at the bottom of the matrix, he's the chauvinist and he's there and there's lots of them and they're opposed to the change. And in the beginning, I was thinking maybe I just leave him out of the discussion. But he's a really important reference point for the rest of the characters. >> And so, as I liked that how you said that we want to have men go up the levels, to essentially become a Mark or James or Sameer, but suppose you have a Richard in your workplace, is there any hope for him ever becoming a Mark or is it even likely? >> Well, so the important thing is here, you know, I'm not a big fan of the kinds of workshops where you throw all men into the same room and you give them the same message. Because you'll lose 70% of the audience right away. So the key thing here is to make them understand that you can climb one step on the ladder and that may be enough. And if you choose to stay where you are, but as long as you're getting a little bit more awareness of what you're doing, that's okay too. But we're not trying to get Al or Chris, the people who are towards the bottom, to become Marks. We just want them to climb one step. And Richard, he's absolutely not a hopeless case. The thing with him is you can't tell him what to do, but you need to find his motivator. What is it that motivates him to start thinking outside of the little comfort zone that he is in right now? And so, maybe that motivator is maybe he does have a sister who's experienced a difficult situation. And so, how does that relate to what's going on? Maybe his team is not coming up with any new ideas. So having the discussion of diversifying the team, he might be ready for that one. But just finding his motivator is how we get him to, at least, get up to the level of Chris. >> And you mentioned that by the year 2030, you want 50-50 gender equality. Now, for people who are at leadership positions, who are Richards, who maybe do have some hope that they might change into even a Chris, but they still aren't on board with 50-50 gender equality, what do you say to those men and how can women deal with those men in their workplace? >> Well, it's that, you know, is the pie this big or is there two pies or is the pie growing? 50-50 is sort of something that a lot of people that ae working towards equality are saying. Now, I'm really trying to support women in the workplace to get to higher levels. And we are, more than 50%, at the very bottom level of most industries and most working positions. And we know that, I think it's 53% of all graduates today are women. So, it's not so much a we need to be 50-50, it's just that we need to change the parameters a little bit and change the format and change the expectations of how we lead our organizations so that it's not always done in a man's way. But rather, something that's more accepting towards not just women, but all minorities that haven't had a place there before. And would you say to somebody who's a Richard? Well if he's open to having the discussion and conversation, try to meet him where he is and say, we're not taking your job away from you, but we will give a woman the opportunity to apply for the job at the next level, alongside with you. And it's the most qualified that will win. But the way that the criteria are set right now and the qualifications and expectations are set right now, are really created very much so for men. So they end up winning that battle every single time. And Chris can't or Richard can't change that. That needs to be changed from a higher level. >> And also, alongside with them worrying that we're going to take their jobs, also because of the Me Too movement, they might be worried, oh I don't even want to work with women because I'm worried they're going to say I harass them or do something to them so I'd rather just not even bother with it. So with those kind of people, how would you try to convince them that they're safe with women or that that it's okay for them to be a part of this discussion? >> So, Chris, who is just above Richard on the matrix, he supports women who are very close to him. So, like I said, family members or maybe it's somebody, a woman on his team, that he's worked with for a long time. And by making him aware that he's already supporting people that are very close to him and he's super comfortable in those relationships and that kind of support that he's providing, I'm saying, what if you were to take that support to somebody you don't know as well? Maybe there's a woman in the extended team or next to you and you say to her, what can I do to help you? Is there anything I can do to help? And then treat that relationship the same way that you're treating the relationship that you have with that family member or whatnot. You know, make sure that it's completely transparent. Let the door be open. Make sure that you're inviting other people to the meetings. Sit in an open area. Do things that are completely transparent. That way nobody will ever question what your motives are, why you're doing this or if you're suggesting or saying something that's inappropriate. >> Right, right. And do you feel that more men are coming to these events or do you think that there's still a lot of progress to be made? >> So, when I started this a couple years ago, I said, okay, within a year, most of the women's organizations here in the Bay Area will have a track for men. And it's starting to happen so I'm so excited about that. I'm really, really happy that EQ Inspiration is not the only place to go, but that there's other organizations that are doing the same thing. And I will continue to, beyond the EQ Inspiration format, my objective is to go and speak at as many tech events as possible. Where I know that the majority of the audience will continue to be mostly men, for, at least, the near future. Hopefully that will change quickly. But now that I have material and I have a method and I know that there is a way to move men and make them individual contributors and make them excited about this. I want to bring that message directly to the core audience while all of the women's organizations that are sitting here in Silicon Valley will continue to build their tracks for men. >> That's amazing and you also mentioned that your material's coming out in Spring, so what's next for you? >> Well, I mean, so writing a book is a difficult thing and for all the men who are listening to this, it will be a very accessible, easy book. Not a lot of words, some pictures, images. Hopefully it's going to be, you know, a nice feel to it so people will be happy to have it lying around. And, really, for me, it's trying to create a language that both men and women are comfortable with. Having names on these characters. Jokingly being able to talk about it. De-dramatizing the whole conversation around this. There is a big seriousness to it, don't get me wrong. But for what I'm trying to do, I really want to lighten it up a little bit and make sure that people don't feel intimidated, threatened, judged or anything like that by it. And so, once the book becomes available in the Spring, I'm hoping that tech organizations will pick it up and use it as conversational material. Both for women's work groups, for mixed groups. One woman called me and said, I found a great use case. She specializes in going into organizations that already have programs and processes set up to move the needle, but not enough is happening. And then she can use this material to actually plug in and engage the men more deeply. So, I think, the book will have its life and with the book, I will make sure that it gets in front of as many people in tech as possible, both men and women. And then I'm hoping to be able to speak about it in as many difficult places as possible, because that's how I grow. >> Well, that's very heroic. It's such a great support for the women in tech community to have someone who's willing to kind of go out of their comfort zone and talk to men about women in tech issues and that's really not happening. So, we really appreciate all the work you're doing and thank you so much for coming in today. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> She's Eva, I'm Sonia, thanks so much for watching theCUBE, til next time. (upbeat music)

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. Thank you for being on two. Very, >> very excited about what we have going on for those of you not familiar with that Ella Keira, and I'm going to say his name incorrectly. Look here. Is that correct? Had >> the care is right. Very good. Yes. Also, >> I've practiced that about nineteen times. Oh, the other night, and I can't feel like I get it wrong and is one of the more well rounded individuals I've come across. His work is awesome. Initially learned quite a bit about him from Chase Phelps, who we had on earlier, and that came through Moore from blood flow restriction training. I've had the pleasure of reading up on quite a bit, and his background is more than unique. Well, around his understatement and really excited have on, I call him one of the most unique individuals people need to know about, especially in the sports science sylph sports science world. He really encompasses quite a bit of just about every domain you could think about. So add Thank you for being on here if you don't mind giving a little bit of background and a bio about yourself. >> Thanks so much. You know, not to. Not to warn anybody, really. But it kind of started as a front line medic in the Army. Really? You know, the emphasis back then was a get people back toe action as soon as possible. So that was my mindset. I spent about eight years in an emergency department learning and training through them. I undergo interviews and exercise physiology from University of California. Davis. I love exercise science. I love exercise physiology. Yeah, started doing athletic training because my junior year in college, I was a Division one wrestler. Tor my a c l p c l N L C E o my strength coach, chiropractor, athletic trainer all the above. Help me get back rustling within four months with a brace at a pretty high level of visual. On level on guy was like, Well, I don't want to go to med school, but what I want to do is help other people recover from injury and get back to the activities that they love. And so I was kind of investigating. Try to figure out what I wanted to do, Really want to be an athletic trainer? We didn't realize how much or how little money they make, um And so I was kind of investigating some other things. Checked out physical therapy, dentistry. But I really wanted to be in the locker room. I wanted to have my own practice. I wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do and not sit on protocols and things like that because I don't think that exists. And so I chose chiropractic school. I went to chiropractic school, learned my manual therapy, my manual techniques, diagnosis, loved it, was able to get patients off the street, didn't have tto live and die by insurance and referrals, was able only to open my own clinic. And and about four years in I realized that I didn't really know very much. I knew howto adjust people, and you had to do a little bit soft tissue. But not really. We weren't taught that I felt like my exercise background and really dropped off because I wasn't doing a lot of strength conditioning anymore. And so I went back and got a phD in sports medicine and athletic training. I had a really big goal of publishing and trying to contribute to the literature, but also understanding the literature and how it applies to the clinical science and clinical practice and try to bridge the gap really, between science and in the clinic and love treating patients. I do it every single day. A lot of people think I don't cause I write so much education, but, like I'm still in my clinic right now, twelve hours a day in the last three days, because it's what I love to dio on DH. Then just for kicks and giggles, I went out and got an MBA, too, so I worked in a lot of different environments. Va Medical System, twenty four hour Fitness Corporate I've consulted for a lot of companies like rock tape. It was their medical director. Fisma no trigger point performance. Have done some research for Sarah Gun kind of been able to do a lot with the phD, which I love, but really, my home base is in the clinic in the trenches, helping people get better. In fact, >> activity. That's awesome. Yeah, Tio coming from athletic training back on athlete. So I myself play I. Smit played small Division three basketball, and I'm a certified athletic trainer as well, and it's the initial love you kind of fall into being in that realm, and that's who you typically work with and then realizing that maybe the hours and the practice that they do isn't fit for you and finding ways you can really get a little more hands on work. I took the sports scientists route. It sounds like you're out has been just about everything and all the above. So it's great to hear that because having that well rounded profile, we weren't athlete. Now you've been in the medical side of the street condition inside even the business development side. You really see all domains from different angles. Now I know you are the educational director for smart tools with their blood flow restriction training chase. How younger? Very highly, uh, about your protocols. I've listened to some of them. If you don't mind diving into a little bit, what exactly is blood flow restriction training and what are the potential benefits of it? >> Yeah, you know it is about two thousand fourteen. I got approached by smart tools. They had developed the only FDA listed or at that point of FDA approved instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization tools other people like to call it, you know, basically grass in or whatever. Andi was really intrigued with what their philosophy wass, which was Hey, we want to make things in the US We want to create jobs in the U. S. And and we want to create the highest quality product that also is affordable for the small clinic. Whereas before the options Ray, you know, three thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars here on DH. So I wrote education for smart tools because of that, and because I just blot. I just believed so much in keeping things here in the U. S. And providing jobs and things locally. Um, so that's really where this all started. And in about two thousand fifteen, my buddy Skylar Richards up FC Dallas he has of the MLS. Yes, the the the lowest lost game days in the MLS. And yeah, I mean, when you think about that and how hard that is such a long season, it's such a grind is the longest season in professional sports. You think? Well, what is he doing there? I mean, I really respect his work up there. And so, like, you know, we were working on a project together and how I was fortunate enough to meet him. And I just really got to pick his brand on a lot of stuff and things I was doing in the clinic. And what could I do? Be doing better. And then one day it just goes, you know, have you seen this be afar stuff? And I'm like, No, I have no idea. It's your idea about it. And so, as usual at the science geek that I am, I went and I went to med sports discus. And I was like, Holy crap, man, I can't even I can't even understand how many articles are out there regarding this already. And this is back to you in two thousand fifteen, two thousand sixteen. I was so used to, you know, going and looking up kinesiology, tape research and being really bad. And you gotta kind of apply. You gotta apply a lot of these products to research. That's really not that strong. This was not the case. And so I brought it to neck the CEO of startles. And like, Dude, we've really got a look at this because really, there's only one option, and I saw the parallels between what was happening with Instrument assisted where there wasn't very many options, but they were very, very expensive and what we could do now with another thing that I thought was amazing. And it wasn't a passive modality because I was super excited about because, you know, I had to become a corrective exercise specialist because I knew I didn't have enough time with people to cause to strengthen hypertrophy. But be afar allows me to do that. And so that's really where I kind of switched. My mind went well, I really need to start investigating this and so to answer your question. VFR is the brief and in tremendous occlusion of arterial and venous blood flow, using a tourniquet while exercising at low intensities or even at rest. And so what that means is we basically use it a medical grade tourniquet and restrict the amount of oxygen or blood flow into a limb while it's exercising and totally including Venus, return back to the heart. And what this does is the way that explains my patients. Is it essentially tricks your brain into thinking you're doing high intensity exercise. But you're not and you're protecting tissue and you don't cause any muscle damage that you normally would with high intensity exercise or even low intensity exercise the failure. And so it works perfectly for those people that we can't compromise tissue like for me in a rehab center. >> Gotcha. Yeah, no, it's It's a super interesting area, and it's something that I have dove into not nearly as much as you have. But you can see the benefits really steaming back from its origins right when it was Katsu train in Japan, made for older adults who couldn't really exercise that needed a fine way to induce hypertrophy now being used to help expedite the healing process being used in season after ah, difficult gamed and prove healing, or whether it's not for whether or not it's used to actually substitute a workout. When travel becomes too demanding, toe actually load the system now with B f ar, Are you getting in regards to hypertrophy similar adaptations? Hypertrophy wise. If you were to do be a far with a low low, say, twenty percent of your one right max, compared to something moderately heavier, >> yeah, or exceeds in the time frame. You know, true hypertrophy takes according to the literature, depending on what reference you're looking at at the minimum, twelve weeks, but more likely sixteen weeks. And you've got to train at least sixty five percent. Or you've got to take low intensity loads to find his twenty to thirty five percent of one read max all the way to failure, which we know causes damage to the tissue be a farce. Starts to show hypertrophy changes that we two. So you know, my my best. My so I this It's kind of embarrassing, but it is what it is. But like, you know, I started learning mother our stuff. I'm a earlier Dr. Right? So I go right away and I go by the first product, I can. I have zero idea what I'm doing there. Zero like and a former Mr America and Mr Olympia Former Mr America champion and the one of the youngest Mr Olympia Tze Hor Olympia Mr Olympia ever compete. He competed and hey didn't stand But anyway so high level bodybuilder Okay, whatever you us. But he was definitely Mr America. He comes into my clinic when I was in Denver, It was probably a neighbour of you at the time, and he and he's like, Okay, I got this pain in my in my tryst up. It's been there for six months. I haven't been able to lift this heavy. My my arm isn't his biggest driving me crazy, right? The bodybuilder, of course, is driving him crazy, so I measure it. He's a half inch difference on his involves side versus on uninvolved side. I diagnosed him with Try some tendinitis at zero idea what I'm doing and be a far. But I said, Listen, I want you to use these cuffs. I got to go to Europe. I gotta go lecture in Europe for a couple weeks and I want you two, three times a week. I want you to do three exercise. I like to use the TRX suspension trainer. I've done a lot of work with them, and I really respect their product and I love it for re up. So I said, Listen, I want you three exercises on the suspension trainer I want to do is try to do a bicep. I want to do some, you know, compound exercise, and in that case I gave, Melo wrote, Come back in two weeks. He comes back in the clinic. I remember her is involved. Side was a quarter of an inch larger than his uninvolved type, and he's like, Do, That's two weeks. I'm like, Dude, that's two weeks And he's like, This is crazy and I go, Yeah, I agree. And since then, I've been, like, bought it like it's for hypertrophy. It is unbelievable. You get people that come in and I've had, you know, like after my injury in college rustling I my a c l I've torn it three times. Now, you know, my quad atrophy was bad. My calf was not the same size, literally. Symmetry occurs so quickly. When you start applying these principles, um, it just blows me away. >> So when you're using it, are using it more and isolated manner or are doing more compound exercises. For example, if you're doing a C l artifically assuming they're back too full function ish, Are you doing bodyweight squads or that starting off with the extensions? How do you kind of progress that up program? >> Yeah, it really just depends on where they're at. Like, you know, day with a C l's. You can pretty much start if there's no contraindications, you convey. Stay docks. Start day one. I'm right after surgery to try to prevent as much of that quad wasting that we get from re perfusion, injury and reactive oxygen species. All the other things that occur to literally day one. You can start and you'LL start isolated. You might start with an isometric. I really do like to do isometrics early on in my in my rehab. Um, and you can use the cops and you can You can fatigue out all the motor units if they're not quite air yet. Like, let's say, pre surgically, where they can't use the lamb, they're in a they're either bedridden or they're in a brace or they're a cast. You can use it with electric stim and or a Russian stem. And with that contraction, not only did you drive growth hormone, but you can also prevent atrophy by up to ninety, ninety five percent so you can start early early on, and I like to call it like phases of injury, right? Like pre surgical or pre injury, right at injury, you kind of get into the sub acute phase of inflammation. You kind of progressed isolated exercises and he goingto isolated in compound and you going to compound in any kind of move through the gamut. What's so cool about the afar is you're not having to reinvent the wheel like you use the same protocols, even use. I mean, really. I mean, if you're using lightweight with sarabande or resistance to being which I do every day, I'd be a far on it. Now, instead of your brain thinking you're not doing anything, your brain's like whoa, high intensity exercise. Let's let's help this tissue recovered because it's got to get injured. So we're gonna grow. >> That's yeah, that's pretty amazing. I've used it myself. I do have my smart tools. I'm biased. I like what you're doing. I really like the fact that there's no cords. It's quite mobile, allows us to do sled pushes, resisted marches, whole wide span and movements on DH before we're kind of hopped on air here. You're talking about some of the nutritional interventions you add to that, whether it be vitamin C college in glucose to mean. What specifically are you putting together on DH? Why're you doing that? Is that for tissue healing? >> Yeah, that's right. It's way. Have ah, in my clinic were Multidisciplinary Clinic in Dallas, Texas, and called the Body Lounge is a shameless plug, but way really believe that healing has to start from the inside, that it has to start with the micro nutrients and then the macro nutrients. And then pretty much everything can be prevented and healed with nutrition and exercise. That's what we truly believe, and that's what we try to help people with. The only thing that I use manual therapy for and I do a lot of needling and all these other things is to help people get it down there. Pain down enough so that they can do more movement. And so, from a micro nutrient standpoint, we've gotta hit the things that are going to help with college and synthesis and protein sentences, So that would be protein supplementation that would be vitamin C. We do lots of hydration because most of us were walking around dehydrated. If you look at some of the studies looking at, you know, even with a normal diet, magnesium is deficient. Vitamin C is deficient during the winter all of us are vitamin D deficient Bluetooth. I own production starts, you know, basically go to kneel. So all those things we we will supplement either through I am injection intramuscular injection or through ivy >> and you guys take coral. Someone's on that, too for some of the good Earth ion for the violent de aspects are taking precursors in a c. Are you guys taking glue to file? >> We inject glorify on either in your inner, either in your i V or in in the I am. You know, with the literature supporting that you only absorb about five to ten percent of whatever aural supplementation you take. We try to we try to push it. I am arrive. And then in between sessions, yes, they would take Coral to try to maintain their levels. We do pre, you know, lab testing, prior lab testing after to make sure we're getting the absorption rate. But a lot of our people we already know they don't absorb B twelve vitamin, and so we've got to do it. Injectable. >> Yeah, Chef makes sense with the B f r itself. And when I get a couple of questions knocked out for I go too far off topic. I'm curious about some of these cellars swelling protocols and what that specifically is what's happening physiologically and how you implement that. >> Yeah, so South Swell Protocol, where we like to call a five by five protocol way. Use the tourniquet. It's in the upper extremity at fifty percent limb occlusion pressure at eighty percent limb occlusion pressure in the lower extremity. You keep him on for five minutes, and then you rest for three minutes, meaning I deflate the cuffs. But don't take them off, and then I re inflate it same pressure for five minutes and then deflate for three minutes. You're five on three off for five rounds, justified by five protocol. What's happening is that you're basically you're creating this swelling effect because, remember, there's no Venus return, so nothing is. But you're getting a small trickle in of fluid or blood into that limb. And so what happens is the extra Seiler's extra Styler swelling occurs. Our body is just dying for Homo stasis. The pressures increase, and there's also an osmotic uh, change, and the fluid gets pushed extra. Sara Lee into the muscle cell body starts to think that you're going to break those muscle cells. I think of it as like a gay. A za water balloon is a great analogy that I've heard. So the water balloon is starting to swell that muscle cell starts to swell. Your body thinks your brain thinks that those cells need to protect themselves or otherwise. They're going to break and cause a popped oh sis or die. And so the response is this whole cascade of the Mt. Horsey one, which is basically a pathway for protein synthesis. And that's why they think that you can maintain muscle size in in inactive muscle through the South Swell Protocol and then when we do this, also protocol. I also like to add either isometrics if I can or if they're in a cast at electric stim. I like to use the power dot that's my favorite or a Russian stim unit, and then you consent. Make the setting so that you're getting muscular. Contraction with that appears to drive growth forma, and it drives it about one and a half times high intensity exercise and up to three times more so than baseline. When we have a growth hormone spurt like that and we have enough vitamin C. It allows for college and synthesis. I like to call that a pool of healing. So whether you can or cannot exercise that limb that's injured if I can create that pool of healing systemically now I've got an environment that can heal. So I have zero excuse as a provider not to get people doing something to become, you know, healing faster, basically. And are you >> typically putting that at the end? If they were training? Or is that typically beginning? We're in this session I put in assuming that that is done in conjunction with other movements. Exercises? >> Yeah, so, like, let's say I have a cast on your right leg. You've got a fracture. I failed to mention also that it appears that the Afar also helps with bone healing. There's been a couple studies, Um, so if we could get this increased bone healing and I can't use that limb that I'm going to use the other lambs and I'm going to use your cardiovascular function, um, I'm going to use you know, you Let's say with that leg, I'LL do upper body or a commoner with cuffs on in order to train their cardiovascular systems that way. Maintain aerobic capacity while they're feeling for that leg, I will do crossover exercises, so I'll hit that opposite leg because something happens when I use the cuffs on my left leg. I get a neurological response on my right leg, and I and I maintain strength and I reduced the amount of atrophy that occurs. And it's, you know, it's all in neurological. So if I had an hour with somebody and I was trying to do the cell school protocol, I would probably do it first to make sure because it's a forty minute protocol. It is a long protocol. If you add up five, five minutes on three minutes off now, during the three minutes off, I could be soft tissue work. I can do other things toe help that person. Or I could just have an athletic tournament training room on a table, and they can learn to inflate and deflate on their own. It doesn't like it's not has to be supervised the whole time, and that's usually what they do in my office is I'LL put him in the I V Lounge and i'Ll just teach them how to inflate deflate and they just keep time. Uh and there, go ahead. I mean, interrupt my bowl. No, no, no, it's okay. And then I just hit other areas. So if I do have extra time, then I might Do you know another body pushing upper body pole? I might do, you know, whatever I can with whatever time I have. If you don't have that much time, then you do the best you can with the cells for protocol. And who study just came out that if you only do two rounds of that, you don't get the protein synthesis measured through M. Dorsey long. So a lot of times, people ask me what can I just do this twice and according to the literature looks like No, it's like you have to take it two five because you've got to get enough swelling to make it to make the brain think that you're gonna explode >> those muscle cells. >> Well, let me take a step back and trap process majority of that. So essentially, what you do with the seller swelling protocol is that you initiate initiating protein synthesis by basically tripping the body that those cells themselves are going to break down. And then when you add the message of the electrical muscular stimulation, you're getting the growth hormone response, the otherwise wouldn't. Is >> that correct? That's correct. So and go ahead. So imagine after a game, I just you know, I'm Skyler Richards. I just got done with my team. Were on the bus or on the airport, our airplane. My guys have just finished a match. You know, you're Fords have run seven miles at high intensity sprint. You think we have any muscle breakdown? Probably have a little bit of damage. They gotta play again in a few days, and I want to do things to help the recovery. Now I put them on with East M. They're not doing any exercise. There's just chilling there, just hanging out. But we're getting protein synthesis. We're getting growth hormone production. I give him some vitamin C supplementation. I give him some protein supplementation, and now not only do we have protein census, but we also have growth hormone in college, in formation in the presence of vitamin C. So that's where we kind of get into the recovery, which chase is doing a >> lot of work with and how much vitamin C are supplemented with, >> you know, really depends. I try to stick to ride around in a new patient. I won't go start off three thousand and I'LL go to five thousand milligrams. It will cause a little dirty pants if I can quote some of my mentors so I try to start them light and I'll move them up I'LL go with eyes ten thousand if I need it but typically stay in the three to five thousand range >> And are you having collagen with that as well? >> I personally don't but I think it would be a good idea if he did >> with some of that. I guess I really like the idea of using the B f R a zit on the opposite lake that's injured to increase cortical drive. So we're listeners who aren't familiar when you're training one limb yet a neurological phenomenon that occurs to increase performance in the other limb. And so what ends referred to if you had one lamb that was immobilizing couldn't function. If you use BF are on the other limb, you're able to stimulate, so it's higher type to voter units able have a cortical drive that near maximal intent, which is going to help, then increase the performance of the other leg that you also say that is promoting this positive adaptation environment is kind of hormonal. Malu I per se How long does that last for the presence of growth hormone? >> It looks like that the stimulation last somewhere between forty eight and seventy two hours. And so I think that that's why when they've done studies looking at doing the afar for strength of hypertrophy, you know, five days a week, compared to two to three days a week for two to three days a week, or just essentially equal to the five days a week. So I think it is long enough that if you do it like twice a week that you're going to get enough cross over >> cash it and you're using it two for the anthologies of effect. So what do you using Be fr yu have that temporary time period of time window where a need that might be bothering your doesn't irritate as much. And are you using that window than to train other exercise and movements while they have, ah, pain for emotion. >> Yeah, absolutely. So it's and I really can't explain it. It's, um we know from the science that it doesn't matter what type of exercise that we do. There is an animal Jesus effect. And that's why I emphasized so much with provider, especially manual therapists attend to think, Hey, you know, my my hands or my needles or my laser or my ultrasound or East them or whatever it is, is the healing driver. It's not the healing driver exercises a healing driver, and I know that's my opinion and people argue with me. But it's true. My hands are not nearly as important as getting people moving because of the energies that perfect and just overall health effects. With that said, the Afar has some sort of Anil Jesus effect that I can't explain now. Of course, we all know it's in the brain. There's something that goes on where you're able to reduce the pain level for up to forty five minutes and then I can train in that window. There is an overall ability to improve people's movement even longer than that, to what I find is that once I get people moving their tenancy just like inertia. Once you get to move in, it keeps moving. Same thing with people that I work with. They tend to get moving more in my clinic. They get confidence, then they end up moving more and more and more. And they get away from, um, being >> scared. Yeah, I know that. That's a great way to put it, because you do have that hesitation to move. And when you providing a stimulus that might ease some of the pain momentarily. I know there is some research out there. Look at Tanaka Thie, the ten apathy being like knee pain, essentially the layman's term kind way to put it. And they're doing it with, like the Metrodome in the background going Ping Ping ping. They're having that external stimulus that they focus on to help disassociate the brain and the knee and the pain. And this is something I can't top what chase and how he says. Yeah, we've been using, like you alluded to Thebe fr, too. Remove the presence of pain so they can do something. These exercises that they typically associate with pain in a pain for your way. >> Yeah, And then now that they're exercising now you get the additional Anil Jesus effect of the exercise itself. Says I'm like a double like a double lang >> Gotcha. Yeah, with blood flow restriction train because it does promote such an environment that really has an intense Jane court stimulus to the body where you get this type to five or stimulated high levels of lactate high levels of metabolite accumulation. I said she had paper about the possible use of bloodflow restriction trading cognitive performance has curious if you had a chance account dive into some of that. I love to hear some of your thoughts being that you have such asshole listed view of everything. >> Yeah, definitely. I think I didn't get a chance to look at it. I appreciate you sending that to me because I have to lecture and may on reaction times, and I was trying to figure out how I'm gonna like include the afar in this lecture at some point, not be totally, you know, inauthentic. But now I can. So I totally appreciate it. I know that there is, and I know that there's an additional benefit. I've seen it. I've worked with stroke patients, other types of people that I have auto, immune, disease, different types of conditions where I've used the Afar and their functional capacity improves over what their physical capacity is doing on. And so I am not surprised at what I'm seeing with that. And I've got to learn more about what other people are thinking. It was interesting what you sent me regarding the insulin growth factor one. We know that that's driven up much higher with the Afar compared to low intensity exercise and the relationship between that and cognitive function. So I've gotta dive deeper into it. I'm not definitely not a neuroscientists, You know, I'm like a pretty much floor if I p e teacher and, you know, just trying to get people moving. And I've gotta understand them more because there is a large association between that exercise component and future >> health, not just of muscles but also a brain. Yeah, >> one of things that I do work with a neurosurgeon and he's awesome. Dr. Chat Press Mac is extremely intelligent, and he saw the blood flow restriction trade as one those means to improve cognitive performance, and I didn't find the paper after he had talked about it. Well, the things that interested me was the fact that is this huge dresser, especially in a very controlled where typically, if you're going to get that level of demand on the body, you knew something very intense. So do something that is almost no stress, Feli controlled and then allowing yourself to maybe do some sort of dual processing tasks with its reaction time and reading for use in a diner vision board. Whether if you have a laser on your head, you have to walk in a straight line while keeping that laser dot on a specific screen. I'm excited to see how be afar material or just something other domains. Whether it is, you know, motor learning or reeducation ofthe movement or vestibular therapy. I think this has a very unique place to really stress the body physiologically without meeting to do something that requires lots of equipment for having someone run up and down with a heavy sled. I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts. I know you haven't had a huge opportunity dive into, but if I had a hand, you the the key to say Hey What do you see in the future for be fr in regards to not just the cognitive standpoint but ways you can use B a far outside of a physical training area. What kinds? Specific domains. You see it being utilised in >> we'LL definitely recovery. I love the fact of, you know, driving growth hormone and supplement incorrectly and letting people heal faster naturally. Ah, I think the ischemic preconditioning protocol is very underutilized and very not known very well, and he's skimming. Preconditioning is when we use one hundred percent occlusion either of the upper extremity or the lower extremity. We keep it on for five minutes and we do two rounds with a three minute rest in between. And I have used this to decrease pain and an athlete prior to going out and playing like a like a high level sport or doing plyometrics. We're doing other things where they're going to get muscle damage to that eye intensity exercise so you get the Anil Jesus effect around an injured tissue. But they really unique thing about the ischemic preconditioning is that it has been shown to reduce the amount of muscle damage that occurs due to the exercise. That's why they call it Preconditioning so we can utilize a prior to a game. We can use a prior to a plyometrics session. We can use it prior to a high intensity lifting session and reduce the amount of damage that occurs to the tissue. So we don't have such a long recovery time when we could continue to train at high levels. I think that that is probably the most exciting thing that I've seen. Absent of cognitive possibilities, I think it wise it on is I'd like to use with the lights. What do some lights? Teo, do some reaction time and do some, you know, memory training and things. And I love to torture my people and get them nice and tired. I think what's going to come around is all these mechanisms. They are what they are. But the true mechanism that I'm seeing is that fatigue is the primary factor. If I can fatigue you centrally and Aiken fatigue, you peripherally and the muscle that's for the adaptation occurs So although right now you know we always are on these. We have to use the specific sets and rats and weights and all these other things so true for the research, because we need to make it is homogenous as we can, but in clinic, if you're a patient, comes to me with a rotator cuff tear. I don't know what you're on, right, Max is for your external rotation. I've gotta guess. And so if I don't do exactly the right amount of weight, doesn't mean I'm not getting the benefit. Well, I'm telling you, anecdotally, that's not true. I just know that I have to take you to fatigue. And so if I'm off by a couple of wraps a big deal, I'm just not going to take you to failure. So I don't get the injury to the tissue that you normally would occur with lightweight to failure. I'm gonna get that fatigue factor. I'm going to get you to adapt, and I'm gonna get you bigger and stronger today than you were yesterday. That's the >> goal. Yeah, that's ah, that's a great way to put it because you're looking at again, you know, mechanisms in why things are occurring versus, you know, being stuck to literature. I have to use twenty percent. How do we find a way to fatigue this system and be fr being a component of that now, outside of blood flow research in train with your practice, it sounds It is quite holistic. Are there any specific areas that you see the other? That was other therapists other, You know, holistic environments could learn from outside of blood flow restriction training. What areas could they really? You know what advice such a safer that I would you give someone who's tried together holistic program to dive into outside of Sebi Afar? Is there any specific devices specific modalities supposed to specific means for a nutrition for that? >> I mean, if I was to try to put us you know what we're trying to dio. I would say that it's all about capacity versus demand. I want to try to maximize the capacity of the individual or the organism to exceed the demands that you're trying to apply to it. If we can do that, will keep you injury free will keep forming. If I allow those demands to exceed your capacity, you're going to get injured. So what can I do to maximize your capacity through nutrition, through exercise, through rest, through meditation, through prayer, through whatever that is through sleep? I think that that's really looking at the person as a whole. And if I can keep thinking about what are the demands that I'm applying? Teo, whatever tissue that is, and I can keep those demands just slightly below and try to increase the capacity, I'm going to get people better. And really, that's all I think about. Can that disk take how much pressure cannot take and what direction can I take it? Well, I'm gonna work at that direction and so we can do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and I try to really make it simple for myself versus Reliant on a modality or anything else in that matter. Really, it's It's really just thinking about how much How much can they How much can they tolerate? And I'm goingto put restrictions on you so that you don't exceed that capacities That way that tissue can heal. And if it can't and you know, maybe that's referral to you know, some of the surgeons are non surgical positions that I work with is they may be fail my treatment. Most people can improve their capacity. We've seen eighty five year olds, Not just me, I'm saying in the literature. Improve their strength through resistance training. Eighty five. The body will always adapt. Ware not weak beings were not fragile, Weaken De stressed and we need to be stressed and we need to be stressed until the day that you put me in the grave. Otherwise we will get Sir Compagnia and we will degrade and our brain will become mush. And I just want to go that way. And I want help as many people that have the same philosophy, whether I'm doing it, one on one with somebody from teaching others. I want them now The same philosophy, Tio >> well, that makes total sense. I love the idea of we need to continually stress ourselves because do you feel like as we age, we have a Smith or belief that we can't do more, but we can't do more because we stopped doing more? Not because we can't. I work with an individual who are hey, hip replacement. Ninety six years old. He came back and four months later was working out again. And that alone was enough evidence for me to realize that it's not necessarily about, Oh, as I get older, I have to be this and we kind of have that thought process. As we age, we do less so we start to do left but find ways to stress the system in a way that can handle it right to the idea. What is the capacity, like you said? And what is their ability to adapt? Are there any specific ways that you assess an individual's capacity to handle load? Is that a lot of subject of understanding who they are? Further any other metrics you using whether we sleep tracking H R V for anything in that domain? >> I have not really done a lot of a lot of that. It's more about, you know what they tell me they want to do. You know you want to come in and you want a lift. Your grandkid. Well, that's That's our That's our marker. You want to come in and you want to do the cross that open. Okay, well, that's your marker. You want to come in, you want to run a marathon. That's your marker. You know, we could always find markers either of activities of daily living or they could be something out there. That's that's that. That's a goal. You know, Never don't half marathon, and I want to do that. So those were really the markers that I use haven't gotten into a lot of the other things. My environment, you >> know? I mean, I would love to have ah, >> whole performance center and a research lab and all that stuff and then, you know, maybe someday that with what I have and what I work with, it's it's more about just what the person wants to do and what is something fun for them to do to keep them active and healthy and from, and that really becomes the marker. And if it's not enough, you know, somebody had a e r physician committee as well. You know, I walk, you know, twenty or thirty minutes and then I walked, you know, at work all day. And I'm like Did It's not enough. And I sent him some articles that looking at physiological adaptation to walking and he's like, Yeah, you're right, it's not enough that I'm like, you know, we're a minimalist. Were like Okay, well, this is the vitamin C you need in order to be healthy, not the recommendations are so you don't get scurvy. A lot is a big difference between, you know, fending off disease versus optimal health. I'm out for optimal health, So let's stress the system to the point where we're not injuring ourselves. But we are pushing ourselves because I think there's such a huge physiological and but also psychological benefit to that. >> Yeah, this that's a great way to put it riff. Ending off disease, right? We're not. Our health care system is not very proactive. You have to have something go wrong for your insurance to take care of it. It's very backwards. That's unfortunate. Then we would like to be like. It's a place where let's not look at micro nutrients and you what were putting in her body as a means to what he says you avoided and scurry. Well, let's look at it from way to actually function and function relative to our own capacity in our own goals. Um, with that, are you doing blood work? I'm assuming of some sort. Maybe. >> Yeah, we do. Labs. Teo, look, att. A variety of different things. We don't currently do Hormonal therapy. We've got some partners in town that do that. We decided we wanted to stay in our lane and, you know, really kind of stick to what we do. And so we refer out any hormonal deficiencies. Whether you need some testosterone growth hormone is from other things. Estrogen, progesterone, whatever s. So we're not doing that currently, and we don't see ourselves doing that because we have some great partners that you a much better job than we would ever do. So I'm also a big believer in stay in your lane, refer out, make friends do whatever is best for the patient of the client. Um, because there's that pays way more dividends them than trying to dio everything you know all announce. Unless you have it already in the house that has a specialty. Yeah. No, that >> makes sense to find a way to facilitate and where you can excel. Um >> and I >> know you got a lot of the time crunch here. We have the wrap it up here for people listening. Where can we find more out about yourself? Where can we listen to you? What social media's are you on and one of those handles >> So instagram I'm under just my name Ed. Look, terra e d l e c a r a Facebook. Same thing. Just Ed. Look era Twitter and la Cara. Everything's just under Everclear. Really? Every Tuesday I do would be a far I call it BF our Tuesday I do kind of a lunch and learn fifteen twenty minutes on either a research article or protocol. If I got a question that was asked of me, I'll answer it on DH. That's an ongoing webinar. Every Tuesday I teach live be If our course is pretty much all over the world, you can go to my website at like keira dot com or d m e on any of the social media handles, and I'LL be happy to respond. Or you could just call my client body Launch Park City's dot com and give me a call >> and you're doing educational stuff that's on the B Afar Tuesday and your webinars well are those sign up websites for those, And if so, is it under your website and look era dot com? >> Uh, that's a great point. I really should have it home there. It's if you go on my social media you you'LL see it was all announced that I'm doing No, you know, whatever topic is I try to be on organized on it. I will put a link on my website. My website's getting redone right now, and so I put a link on there for be If our Tuesday under I have >> a whole >> be fr. It's called B F, our master class. It's my online BF our course on underneath there I'LL put a link. Tio might be a far Tuesdays >> gadget. Is there anything you wanna selfishly promote? Cause guys, that is an amazing resource. Everything he's talking about it it's pretty much goal anyway, You can hear more about where you work out any projects, anything that you'd be wanting others to get into or listen to that you're working on that you see, working on the future or anything you just want to share. >> I'm always looking at, you know, teaching you no more courses like love teaching. I love, you know, doing live courses. Esso I currently teach to be if our course I teach the instrument assist. Of course. Programming. I teach a, uh, a cupping movement assessment and Fossen course. So any of those things you can see on my website where I'm gonna be next? We're doing some cool research on recovery with a pretty well known pretty, well known uh, brand which I hope we'll be able to announce at some point. It looks like the afar Mike increased oxygenation in muscle tissue even with the cuffs on. So it looks like it looks like from preliminary studies that the body adapts to the hypoxic environment and my increased oxygenation while the cuffs are on. I'll know more about that soon, but that's pretty exciting. I'Ll release that when I when I can you know? Other than that if I can help anybody else or help a friend that's in Dallas that wants to see me while I'm here. I practiced from seven. AM almost till seven. P. M. Every night on. I'm also happy to consult either Via Skype. Er, >> um, by phone. >> Gosh. And you smart tools use a dotcom. Correct for the CFR cuffs. >> Yeah, you can either. Go toe. Yeah, you can go to my side of you connect with me. If you want to get it, I can get you. Uh, we could probably do a promotional discount. And if you want to get some cups but smart tools plus dot com is is the mother ship where we're at a Cleveland our We're promoting both our live courses and are and our material in our cups. >> I can vouch them firsthand. They're awesome. You guys do Amazing work and information you guys put out is really killer. I mean, the amount of stuff I've been able to learn from you guys and what you've been doing has helped me a ton. It's really, really awesome to see you guys promoting the education that way. And thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. It was a blast talking Teo again. Guys, go follow him on Instagram. He's got some amazing stuff anyway. You can read about him, learn about him and what he's doing. Please do so and thank you. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it a lot of spreading the word and talking to like minded individuals and making friends. You know that I have kind of this ongoing theme of, you know, it's all about, You know, there's two things that we can control in our life. It's really what we put in our mouths and how much we move and people like you that air getting the word out. This information is really important that we've got to take control of our health. We're the only ones responsible. So let's do it. And then if there's other people that can help you reach out to them and and get the help you need. >> Well, that's great. All right, guys. Thank you for listening. Really Appreciate it. And thank you once again

(soaring orchestral music) >> Everyone, welcome to this CUBE Conversation here at Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We are here with Joel Horwitz, who's the CMO of WANdisco, Joel, great to see you, formerly of IBM, we've known you for many years, we've had great conversations when you were at IBM, rising star, now at WANdisco, congratulations. >> Thank you, yeah, it's really great to be at WANdisco, and great to be here with theCUBE. So we've had many conversations, again, goin' back, you were a rising star in data, you know the cloud real well, why WANdisco, why leave IBM for WANdisco, what attracted you to the opportunity? >> Yeah, really three things. First and foremost, the people. I've known the WANdisco team now for years. Back in my Hadoop days, when I was at Datamere, I used to, hang out with the WANdisco team at Data After Dark, in New York, which was great, and they had the best marketing there at the time. Two, the product, I mean I won't join a company unless the product is really legit, and they have an absolutely great technology, and they are applying it to some really tough problems. And third is just the potential, really, the potential of this company is not even close to being tapped. So there's a ton of runway there, and so, for me, I'm just totally grateful, and totally honored, to be a part of WANdisco. >> What's the tailwind for them, that wave that they're on, if you will, because you mentioned, there's a lot of runway or headroom, a lot of market growth. Certainly cloud, David Richards will talk about that. But what attracted you, 'cause you knew the cloud game too. >> Yeah, yeah. >> IBM made a big run at the cloud. >> Yeah well, I came in, at IBM, through the data door, so to speak, and then I walked through the cloud door, as well, while I was there. And the reality is that data continues to be the lifeblood of an enterprise, no matter what. And so, what I saw in WANdisco was that they had technology that allowed people to enlarge enterprise to, frankly replicate or manage their data across Hadoop clusters from cluster to cluster. And then we ended up, when I spoke with you last, with David here, we also recognize the opportunity that just how copying data, large-scale data from one Hadoop cluster to another, is challenging, copying data, it's really not that different of copying data from, say, HDFS to an object storage or S3, as pretty similar problem. And so that's why, just this past week, we announced live data for multicloud. >> Explain live data for multicloud, I've read it in the news, got some buzz, it's this great trend, live. We're doing you a lot of live videos on theCUBE, live implies real time. Data's data. Multicloud is clearly becoming one of those enterprise categories. >> Yeah. >> First it was public cloud, then hybrid cloud. >> Yeah. >> Now it's multicloud. How does live data fit into multicloud? >> Yeah, so multicloud, and live data, as I just mentioned, we have live data for Hadoop, so that's fairly obvious, so if you're going multi-cluster you can do that. As well as from, even on-prem, data center to data center, so, multi-site if you will. But multicloud is a really interesting phrase that's kind of cropped up this year. We're seeing it used quite a lot. The focus in multicloud has been mainly focus on applications. And so, talking about, how do you have a container strategy? Or a virtualization strategy, for your applications? And so, I think of it really as a multicloud strategy, as opposed to a multicloud architecture. So we're helping our enterprise clients think about their multicloud strategy. So they're not locked in to any one vendor, so they're able to take advantage of all the great innovations that are happening, if you ask me, on the cloud first, and then ultimately comes down to, at times, on-prem. >> What's the pitfalls between multicloud strategy and multicloud architecture, you just said, customers don't want to get locked in, obviously, no-one wants to get locked in, multi-vendor used to be a big buzzword, during that last wave of computer-to-client server. >> Yeah. >> Now multicloud seems like multi-vendor, what do you mean by architecture versus strategy, how do you parse that? Yeah, so like I said, in terms of your data, right, and it all comes back to your data. If you go all in on, say, one vendor, and you're architecting for that vendor only and you're choosing your migration, your data management tools, for a particular cloud vendor, and, said a different way, if you're only using the native tools from that vendor, then it's very difficult to ever move off of that cloud, or to take advantage of other clouds as they, for example, maybe have new IOT offerings, or have new blockchain offerings, or have new AI offerings, as many others come on the scene. And so, that's what I mean by strategy, is if you choose one vendor for, your certain toolset, then it's going to be very difficult to maintain arbitrage between the different vendors. >> Talk about how you guys are attacking the market, obviously, it's clear that data, has been a fundamental part of WANdisco's value proposition. Moving data around has been a top concern, even back in the Hadoop days, now it's in the cloud. >> Yeah. >> Moving data across the network, whether it's cloud to cloud, or cloud to data center, or to the edge of the network-- >> Yep. Yep. >> Is a challenge. >> You know at IBM, when I was there in 2016, and we're coming up with our strategy when I was in Corp Dev. We talked about four different areas of data, we talked about data gravity, so data has gravity. We talked about data movement, and we talked about data science. And we talked about data governance. And I still think those are still relatively the four major themes around this topic of data. And so, absolutely data has gravity, and not just in terms of the absolute size and weight, if you will. But it also has applications that depend on it, the business itself depends on it, and so, the types of strategies that we've seen to migrate data, say, to the cloud, or have a hybrid data management strategy, has been lift and shift, or to load it on to the back of, I always picture that image of the forklift lifting all those tape drives onto the airplane, you know, the IBM version of that. And that's like a century old at this point, so, we have a way to replicate data continuously, using our patented consensus technology, that's in the lifeblood of our company, which is distributed computing. And so having a way, to migrate data to the cloud, without disrupting your business, is not just marketing speak, but it's really what we are able to do for our clients. How do you guys go to market, how do you guys serve customers, what's the strategy? >> So, primarily we've formed a number of strategic partnerships, obviously one with IBM that I helped spearhead while I was there, we actually just recently announced that we now support Big SQL, so it's actually the first opportunity where, if you are using a database, provided by IBM, you can actually replicate across different databases and still query it with Big SQL. Which is a big deal, right, it means you can still have access to your data while it's in motion, right, that's pretty cool. And then so IBM is there, and then secondly, we've formed a number of other strategic partnerships with the other cloud vendors, of course, Alibaba we have an OEM, Microsoft, we have preferred selling motion with them, AWS, of course, we're in their marketplace. So primarily, we sell through a number of our key partnerships, because, we are, fairly integrated, like I said, into the architecture of these platforms, and, just to comment more deeply on that, when you look at, object storage, on each of these various public cloud vendors. They may look similar on the surface, maybe they all use the same APIs or have some level of, similar interaction, they look like they're the same, the pricing might be the same. We go like one level deeper, and they're all very different, they're all very different flavors of object storage. And so while it might seem like, "Oh, that's trivial to work with," it really isn't, it's extremely non-trivial, so, we help, not only our customers solve that, but we also help our partners significantly, help their clients move to the cloud, to their cloud, faster. >> So you basically work through people who sell your product, to the end user customer, or through their application or service. >> Yeah, that's our main route to market, I would say, the other, obviously, the main, we have a direct sales force, who's out there, working with the best clients in the world. AMD is a great customer of ours, who we recently helped migrate to Microsoft Azure. And we have a number of other large enterprise customers, in retail, and finance, and media. And so really, when it comes down to it, yeah it's those two majors motions, one through the cloud vendors themselves, 'cause frankly, in most cases, they don't have this technology to do it, you know, they're trying to basically take snapshots of data, and they're struggling to convince their customers to move to their cloud. >> It becomes a key feature in platforms. >> Yes it does. >> So that's obviously what attracts sellers, what other things would attract sellers or partners, for you, what motivates them, obviously the IP, clearly, is the number one, economics, what's the other value proposition? >> The end goal isn't to move data to the cloud, the end goal is to move business processes to the cloud, and then be able to take advantage of the other value adds that already exist in the cloud. And so if you're saying, what's the benefit there, well, once you do that move, then you can sell into, clients with all your additional value adds. So that's really powerful, if you are stuck with this stage of "Eh, how do we actually migrate data to the cloud?" >> So IBM Think is coming up, what's your view of what's happening there, what are you guys going to be doing there, as are you, on the IBM side-- >> Yeah. >> Now you're on the other side of the table. You've been on both sides of the table. >> Yeah. >> So what's goin' on at Think, and how does WANdisco, vector, and certainly CUBE will be there. >> Yeah, we'll be there, so WANdisco is a sponsor of IBM Think as well, clearly, as I mentioned, we'll be talking about Big Replicate, which is our Hadoop replication offering, that's sold with IBM. The other one, as I mentioned, is Big SQL, so that's a new offering that we just announced this past month. So we'll be talking about that, and showing a number of great examples of how that actually works, so if you're going to be at Think, come by our booth, and check that out. In addition to that, I mean, clearly, IBM is also talking about multicloud and hybrid cloud, so hybrid data management, hybrid cloud is a big topic. You can expect to see, at IBM Think, a lot of conversations on the application side. In terms of, obviously with their acquisition of Red Hat, you can well imagine they're going to be talking a lot about the software stack, there. But I would say that, we'll be talking, and spending most of our time talking about, how to manage your data across different environments. >> Where's the product roadmap heading, I know you guys don't like to go into specifics in public- >> Yeah. >> Sensitive information, but, generally speaking, where's the main trendlines that you guys are going to be building on, obviously, cloud data, they'll come in together, good core competency there for WANdisco, what's next, what's the next level for you guys? >> So what's really fascinating, and I actually didn't realize this when I joined WANdisco, just to be completely transparent. WANdisco has a core piece of technology called DConE, Distributed Coordination Engine. It essentially is a form of blockchain, really, it's a consensus technology, it's an algorithm. And that's been their secret sauce since the founding of the company. And so they originally applied that to code, through source code management, and then only in this last few years they've applied it to data. So you can guess, at other areas that we might apply it to, and already this past year, we actually filed two patents, in the area of blockchain, or really, distributed ledger technology, as we're starting to hear it called in the actual enterprise that's using it. But you can expand that to any other enterprise asset, really. That's big, right, that has value, and that you want to manage across different environments, so you can imagine, lots of other assets that we could apply this to, not only code, not only data, not only ledgers, but what are the other assets? And so that's essentially what we're working on. >> Is that protectable IP the patents, so those are filed on the blockchain? >> Yeah, yeah. >> For instance? >> So DConE is certainly patented, I'm sure Jagane'll talk more about this. >> Yeah, we'll get into it. >> There's probably a handful of people in the world, and they might all be working at WANdisco at this point. (chuckles) Who actually know how that works, and it's essentially Paxos, which is a really gnarly problem to solve, a really difficult math problem. And as David mentioned earlier, Google, the other smartest company in the world, published their paper on Spanner, and as you said, they used brute force, really, to solve the problem. Where we have a very elegant solution, using software, right? So it's a really great time to be at WANdisco, because I just see that there's so many applications of our technology, but, right now, we're mainly focused on what our customers are asking for. >> You've said a great quote, thanks Joe, final question for you, where do you see it going, WANdisco, what are your plans, do you have anything in mind, do you want to share anything notable, around what you're doing, and what you think WANdisco will be in a few years. >> We have an incredible team, as I mentioned, the people that are joining WANdisco, as David mentioned, I myself, not to say too much there, but, the new folks that have joined our Research and Development Team, but we've been making some great hires, to WANdisco. So I'm really excited about the team, I'm going, actually, to visit, we have a great team in Europe, in the UK, in the United Kingdom, so I'm going to go see them next week. But we have just the company culture is what drives me, I think that's just one of those hard things, really, to find. And so that's what I'm really excited about, so there's a lot of cool stuff happening there. You know, on that note, it's actually kind of funny, because on one of the articles that talked about live data for multicloud, asked the question, and her headline was "Are You Down to Boogie?" So, disco continues to be a great meme for us, with our name. (John chuckles) Unintentional, so, as a marketer, it's a pretty fun time to be at WANdisco. >> Seventies and eighties were great times, certainly I'm an eighties guy, Joel, thanks for comin' on, appreciate the update, Joel Horowitz, CMO, Chief Marketing Officer, WANdisco, really on a nice wave right now, cloud growth, data growth, all comin' together, real IP, lookin' forward to hearing more, what comes down the pipe for those guys, you'll see him at IBM Think. I'm John Furrier here, in the studios at Palo Alto, thanks for watching. (soaring orchestral music)

Live from New York It's theCUBE! Covering theCUBE New York City 2018 Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media and it's ecosystem partners >> Hey welcome back and we're live in theCUBE in New York city. It's our 2nd day of two days of coverage CUBE NYC. The hashtag CUBENYC Formerly Big data NYC renamed because it's about big data, it's about the server, it's about Cooper _________'s multi-cloud data. It's all about data, and that's the fundamental change in the industry. Our next guest is Yaron Haviv, who's the CTO of Iguazio, key alumni, always coming out with some good commentary smart analysis. Kind of a guest host as well as an industry participant supplier. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thank you John. >> Love having you on theCUBE because you always bring some good insight and we appreciate that. Thank you so much. First, before we get into some of the comments because I really want to delve into comments that David Richards said a few years ago, CEO of RenDisco. He said, "Cloud's going to kill Hadoop". And people were looking at him like, "Oh my God, who is this heretic? He's crazy. What is he talking about?" But you might not need Hadoop, if you can run server less Spark, Tensorflow.... You talk about this off camera. Is Hadoop going to be the open stack of the big data world? >> I don't think cloud necessary killed Hadoop, although it is working on that, you know because you go to Amazon and you know, you can consume a bunch of services and you don't really need to think about Hadoop. I think cloud native serve is starting to kill Hadoop, cause Hadoop is three layers, you know, it's a file system, it's DFS, and then you have server scheduling Yarn, then you have applications starting with map produce and then you evolve into things like Spark. Okay, so, file system I don't really need in the cloud. I use Asfree, I can use a database as a service, as you know, pretty efficient way of storing data. For scheduling, Kubernetes is a much more generic way of scheduling workloads and not confined to Spark and specific workloads. I can run with Dancerflow, I can run with data science tools, etc., just containerize. So essentially, why would I need Hadoop? If I can take the traditional tools people are now evolving in and using like Jupiter Notebooks, Spark, Dancerflow, you know, those packages with Kubernetes on top of a database as a service and some object store, I have a much easier stack to work with. And I could mobilize that whether it's in the cloud, you know on different vendors. >> Scale is important too. How do you scale it? >> Of course, you have independent scaling between data and computation, unlike Hadoop. So I can just go to Google, and use Vquery, or use, you know, DynamoDB on Amazon or Redchick, or whatever and automatically scale it down and then, you know >> That's a unique position, so essentially, Hadoop versus Kubernetes is a top-line story. And wouldn't that be ironic for Google, because Google essentially created Map Produce and Coudera ran with it and went public, but when we're talking about 2008 timeframe, 2009 timeframe, back when ventures with cloud were just emerging in the mainstream. So wouldn't it be ironic Kubernetes, which is being driven by Google, ends up taking over Hadoop? In terms of running things on Kubernetes and cloud eight on Visa Vis on premise with Hadoop. >> The poster is tend to give this comment about Google, but essentially Yahoo started Hadoop. Google started the technology  and couple of years after Hadoop started, with Google they essentially moved to a different architecture, with something called Percolator. So Google's not too associated with Hadoop. They're not really using this approach for a long time. >> Well they wrote the map-produced paper and the internal conversations we report on theCUBE about Google was, they just let that go. And Yahoo grabbed it. (cross-conversation) >> The companies that had the most experience were the first to leave. And I think it may respect what you're saying. As the marketplace realizes the outcomes of the dubious associate with, they will find other ways of achieving those outcomes. It might be more depth. >> There's also a fundamental shift in the consumption where Hadoop was about a ranking pages in a batch form. You know, just collecting logs and ranking pages, okay. The chances that people have today revolve around applying AI to business application. It needs to be a lot more concurring, transactional, real-time ish, you know? It's nothing to do with Hadoop, okay? So that's why you'll see more and more workers, mobilizing different black server functions, into service pre-canned services, etc. And Kubernetes playing a good role here is providing the trend. Transport for migrating workloads across cloud providers, because I can use GKE, the Google Kubenetes, or Amazon Kubernetes, or Azure Kubernetes, and I could write a similar application and deploy it on any cloud, or on Clam on my own private cluster. It makes the infrastructure agnostic really application focused. >> Question about Kubernetes we heard on theCUBE earlier, the VP of Project BlueData said that Kubernetes ecosystem and community needs to do a better job with Stapla, they nailed Stapflalis, Stafle application support is something that they need help on. Do you agree with that comment, and then if so, what alternatives do you have for customers who care about Stafe? >> They should use our product (laughing) >> (mumbling) Is Kubernetes struggling there? And if so, talk about your product >> So, I think that our challenge is rounded that there are many solutions in that. I think that they are attacking it from a different approach Many of them are essentially providing some block storage to different containers on really cloud 90. What you want to be able is to have multiple containers access the same data. That means either sharing through file systems, for objects or through databases because one container is generating, for example, ingestion or __________. Another container is manipulating that same data. A third container may look for something in the data, and generate a trigger or an action. So you need shared access to data from those containers. >> The rest of the data synchronizes all three of those things. >> Yes because the data is the form of state. The form of state cannot be associated with the same container, which is what most of where I am very active and sincere in those committees, and you have all the storage guys in the committees, and they think the block story just drag solution. Cause they still think like virtual machines, okay? But the general idea is that if you think about Kubernetes is like the new OS, where you have many processes, they're just scattered around. In OS, the way for us to share state between processes an OS, is whether through files, or through databases, in those form. And that's really what >> Threads and databases as a positive engagement. >> So essentially I gave maybe two years ago, a session at KubeCon in Europe about what we're doing on storing state. It's really high-performance access from those container processes to our database. Impersonate objects, files, streams or time series data, etc And then essentially, all those workloads just mount on top of and we can all share stape. We can even control the access for each >> Do you think you nailed the stape problem? >> Yes, by the way, we have a managed service. Anyone could go today to our cloud, to our website, that's in our cloud. It gets it's own Kubernetes cluster, a provision within less than 10 minutes, five to 10 minutes. With all of those services pre-integrated with Spark, Presto, ______________, real-time, these services functions. All that pre-configured on it's own time. I figured all of these- >> 100% compatible with Kubernetes, it's a good investment >> Well we're just expanding it to Kubernetes stripes, now it's working on them, Amazon Kubernetes, EKS I think, we're working on AKS and GK. We partner with Azure and Google. And we're also building an ad solution that is essentially exactly the same stock. Can run on an edge appliance in a factory. You can essentially mobilize data and functions back and forth. So you can go and develop your work loads, your application in the cloud, test it under simulation, push a single button and teleport the artifacts into the edge factory. >> So is it like a real-time Kubernetes? >> Yes, it's a real-time Kubernetes. >> If you _______like the things we're doing, it's all real-time. >> Talk about real-time in the database world because you mentioned time-series databases. You give objects store versus blog. Talk about time series. You're talking about data that is very relevant in the moment. And also understanding time series data. And then, it's important post-event, if you will, meaning How do you store it? Do you care? I mean, it's important to manage the time series. At the same time, it might not be as valuable as other data, or valuable at certain points and time, which changes it's relationship to how it's stored and how it's used. Talk about the dynamic of time series.. >> Figured it out in the last six or 12 months that since real-time is about time series. Everything you think about real-time censored data, even video is a time-series of frames, okay And what everyone wants to do is just huge amount of time series. They want to cross-correlate it, because for example, you think about stock tickers you know, the stock has an impact from news feeds or Twitter feeds, or of a company or a segment. So essentially, what they need to do is something called multi-volume analysis of multiple time series to be able to extract some meaning, and then decide if you want to sell or buy a stock, as in vacation example. And there is a huge gap in the solution in that market, because most of the time series databases were designed for operational databases, you know, things that monitor apps. Nothing that injects millions of data points per second, and cross-correlates and run real-time AI analytics. Ah, so we've essentially extended because we have a programmable database essentially under the hoop. We've extended it to support time series data with about 50 to 1 compression ratio, compared to some other solutions. You know we've break with the customer, we've done sizing, they told them us they need half a pitabyte. After a small sizing exercise, about 10 to 20 terabytes of storage for the same data they stored in Kassandra for 500 terabytes. No huge ingestion rates, and what's very important, we can do an in-flight with all those cross-correlations, so, that's something that's working very well for us. >> This could help on smart mobility. Kenex 5G comes on, certainly. Intelligent edge. >> So the customers we have, these cases that we applied right now is in financial services, two or three main applications. One is tick data and analytics, everyone wants to be smarter learning on how to buy and sell stocks or manage risk, the second one is infrastructure, monitoring, critical infrastructure, monitoring is SLA monitoring is be able to monitor network devices, latencies, applications, you now, transaction rate, or that, be able to predict potential failures or escalation We have similar applications; we have about three Telco customers using it for real-time time. Series analytics are metric data, cybersecurity attacks, congestion avoidance, SLA management, and also automotive. Fleet management, file linking, they are also essentially feeding huge data sets of time series analytics. They're running cross-correlation and AI logic, so now they can generate triggers. Now apply to Hadoop. What does Hadoop have anything to do with those kinds of applications? They cannot feed huge amounts of datasets, they cannot react in real-time, doesn't store time-series efficiently. >> Hapoop (laughing) >> You said that. >> Yeah. That's good. >> One, I know we don't have a lot of time left. We're running out of time, but I want to make sure we get this out here. How are you engaging with customers? You guys got great technical support. We can vouch for the tech chops that you guys have. We seen the solution. If it's compatible to Kubernetes, certainly this is an alternative to have really great analytical infrastructure. Cloud native, goodness of your building, You do PFC's, they go to your website, and how do you engage, how do you get deals? How do people work with you? >> So because now we have a cloud service, so also we engage through the cloud. Mainly, we're going after customers and leads, or from webinars and activities on the internet, and we sort of follow-up with those customers, we know >> Direct sales? >> Direct sales, but through lead generation mechanism. Marketplace activity, Amazon, Azure, >> Partnerships with Azure and Google now. And Azure joint selling activities. They can actually resale and get compensated. Our solution is an edge for Azure. Working on similar solution for Google. Very focused on retailers. That's the current market focus of since you think about stores that have a single supermarket will have more than a 1,000 cameras. Okay, just because they're monitoring shelves in real-time, think about Amazon go, kind of replication. Real-time inventory management. You cannot push a 1,000 camera feeds into the cloud. In order to analyze it then decide on inventory level. Proactive action, so, those are the kind of applications. >> So bigger deals, you've had some big deals. >> Yes, we're really not a raspberry pie-kind of solution. That's where the bigger customers >> Got it. Yaron, thank you so much. The CTO of Iguazio Check him out. It's actually been great commentary. The Hadoop versus Kubernetes narrative. Love to explore that further with you. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. We're live in day 2 of CUBE NYC. Par Strata, Hadoop Strata, Hadoop World. CUBE Hadoop World, whatever you want to call it. It's all because of the data. We'll bring it to ya. Stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Voiceover: Live from the Moscone Center, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit San Francisco 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of AWS Summit here in San Francisco. Happy to welcome back to the program Jagane Sundar, who is the CTO of WANdisco. Jagane, great to see you, how have you been? >> Well, been great Stu, thanks for having me. >> All right so, every show we go to now, data really is at the center of it, you know. I'm an infrastructure guy, you know, data is so much of the discussion here, here in the cloud in the keynotes, they were talking about it. IOT of course, data is so much involved in it. We've watched WANdisco from the days that we were talking about big data. Now it's you know, there's AI, there's ML. Data's involved, but tell us what is WANdisco's position in the marketplace today, and the updated role on data? >> So, we have this notion, this brand new industry segment called live data. Now this is more than just itty-bitty data or big data, in fact this is cloud-scale data located in multiple regions around the world and changing all the time. So you have East Coast data centers with data, West Coast data centers with data, European data centers with data, all of this is changing at the same time. Yet, your need for analytics and business intelligence based on that is across the board. You want your analytics to be consistent with the data from all these locations. That, in a sense, is the live data problem. >> Okay, I think I understand it but, you know, we're not talking about like, in the storage world there was like hot data, what's hot and cold data. And we talked about real-time data for streaming data and everything like that. But how do you compare and contrast, you know, you said global in scope, talked about multi-region, really talking distributed. From an architectural standpoint, what's enabling that to be kind of the discussion today? Is it the likes of Amazon and their global reach? And where does WANdisco fit into the picture? >> So Amazon's clearly a factor in this. The fact that you can start up a virtual machine in any part of the world in a matter of minutes and have data accessible to that VM in an instant changes the business of globally accessible data. You're not simply talking about a primary data center and a disaster recovery data center anymore. You have multiple data centers, the data's changing in all those places, and you want analytics on all of the data, not part of the data, not on the primary data center, how do you accomplish that, that's the challenge. >> Yeah, so drill into it a little bit for us. Is this a replication technology? Is this just a service that I can spin up? When you say live, can I turn it off? How do those kind of, when I think about all the cloud dynamics and levers? >> So it is indeed based on active-active replication, using a mathematically strong algorithm called Paxos. In a minute, I'll contrast that with other replication technologies, but the essence of this is that by using this replication technology as a service, so if you are going up to Amazon's web services and you're purchasing some analytics engine, be it Hive or Redshift or any analytics engine, and you want to have that be accessible from multiple data centers, be available in the face of data center or entire region failure, and the data should be accessible, then you go with our live data platform. >> Yeah so, we want you to compare and contrast. What I think about, you know, I hear active-active, speed of light's always a challenge. You know globally, you have inconsistency it's challenging, there's things like Google Spanner out there to look at those. You know, how does this fit compared to the way we've thought of things like replication and globally distributed systems in the past? >> Interesting question. So, ours great for analytics applications, but something like Google Spanner is more like a MySQL database replacement that runs into multiple data centers. We don't cater to that and database-transaction type of applications. We cater to analytics applications of batch, very fast streaming applications, enterprise data warehouse-type analytics applications, for all of those. Now if you take a look inside and see what kind of replication technology will be used, you'll find that we're better than the other two different types. There are two different types of existing replication technologies. One is log shipping. The traditional Oracle, GoldenGate-type, ship the log, once the change is made to the primary. The second is, take a snapshot and copy differences between snapshots. Both have their deficiencies. Snapshot of course is time-based, and it happens once in a while. You'll be lucky if you can get one day RTO with those sorts of things. Also, there's an interesting anecdote that comes to mind when I say that because the Hadoop folks in their HTFS, implemented a version of snapshot and snapdiff. The unfortunate truth is that it was engineered such that, if you have a lot of changes happening, the snapshot and snapdiff code might consume too much memory and bring down your NameNode. That's undesirable, now your backup facility just brought down your main data capability. So snapshot has its deficiencies. Log shipping is always active/passive. Contrast that with our technology of live data, whereat you can have multiple data centers filled with data. You can write your data to any of these data centers. It makes for a much more capable system. >> Okay, can you explain, how does this fit with AWS and can it live in multi-clouds, what about on-premises, the whole you know, multi and hybrid cloud discussion? >> Interesting, so the answer is yes. It can live in multiple regions within the same cloud, multiple reasons within different clouds. It'll also bridge data that exists on your on-prem, Hadoop or other big data systems, or object store systems within Cloud, S3 or Azure, or any of the BLOB stores available in the cloud. And when I say this, I mean in a live data fashion. That means you can write to your on-prem storage, you can also write to your cloud buckets at the same time. We'll keep it consistent and replicated. >> Yeah, what are you hearing from customers when it comes to where their data lives? I know last time I interviewed David Richards, your CEO, he said the data lakes really used to be on premises, now there's a massive shift moving to the public clouds. Is that continuing, what's kind of the breakdown, what are you hearing from customers? >> So I cannot name a single customer of ours who is not thinking about the cloud. Every one of them has a presence on premise. They're looking to grow in the cloud. On-prem does not appear to be on a growth path for them. They're looking at growing in the cloud, they're looking at bursting into the cloud, and they're almost all looking at multi-cloud as well. That's been our experience. >> At the beginning of the conversation we talked about data. How are customers doing you know, exploiting and leveraging or making sure that they aren't having data become a liability for them? >> So there are so many interesting use cases I'd love to talk about, but the one that jumps out at me is a major auto manufacturer. Telematics data coming in from a huge number, hundreds of thousands, of cars on the road. They chose to use our technology because they can feed their West Coast car telematics into their West Coast data center, while simultaneously writing East Coast car data into the East Coast data center. We do the replication, we build the live data platform for them, they run their standard analytics applications, be it Hadoop-sourced or some other analytics applications, they get consistent answers. Whether you run the analytics application on the East Coast or the West Coast, you will get the same exact answer. That is very valuable because if you are doing things like fault detection, you really don't want spurious detection because the data on the West Coast was not quite consistent and your analytics application was led astray. That's a great example. We also have another example with a top three bank that has a regulatory concern where they need to operate out of their backup data centers, so-called backup data center, once every three months or so. Now with live data, there is no notion of active data center and backup data center. All data centers are active, so this particular regulatory requirement is extremely simple for them to implement. They just run their queries on one of the other data centers and prove to the regulators that their data is indeed live. I could go on and on about a number of these. We also have a top two retailer who has got such a volume data that they cannot manage it in one Hadoop cluster. They use our technology to create the live data data link. >> One of the challenges always, customers love the idea of global but governance, compliance, things like GDPR pop up. Does that play into your world? Or is that a bit outside of what WANdisco sees? >> It actually turns out to be an important consideration for us because if you think about it, when we replicate the data flows through us. So we can be very careful about not replicating data that is not supposed to be replicated. We can also be very careful about making sure that the data is available in multiple regions within the same country if that is the requirement. So GDPR does play a big role in the reason why many of our customers, particularly in the financial industry, end up purchasing our software. >> Okay, so this new term live data, are there any other partners of yours that are involved in this? As always, you want like a bit of an ecosystem to help build out a wave. >> So our most important partners are the cloud vendors. And they're multi-region by nature. There is no idea of a single data center or a single region cloud, so Microsoft, Amazon with AWS, these are all important partners of ours, and they're promoting our live data platform as part of their strategy of building huge hybrid data lakes. >> All right, Jagane give us a little view looking forward. What should we expect to see with live data and WANdisco through the rest of 2018? >> Looking forward, we expect to see our footprint grow in terms with dealing with a variety of applications, all the way from batch, pig scripts that used to run once a day to hive that's maybe once every 15 minutes to data warehouses that are almost instant and queryable by human beings, to streaming data that pours things into Kafka. We see the whole footprint of analytics databases growing. We see cross-capability meaning perhaps an Amazon Redshift to an Azure or SQL EDW replication. Those things are very interesting to us, to our customers, because some of them have strengths in certain areas and other have strengths in other areas. Customers want to exploit both of those. So we see us as being the glue for all world-scale analytics applications. >> All right well, Jagane, I appreciate you sharing with us everything that's happening at WANdisco. This new idea of live data, we look forward to catching up with you and the team in the future and hearing more about the customers and everything on there. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from AWS Summit here in San Francisco. I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from New York, it's theCUBE covering BigData New York City 2016, brought to you by headline sponsors Cisco, IBM, Nvidia, and our ecosystem sponsors. Now here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Peter Burris. >> Welcome back to theCUBE everybody. This is BigData NYC and we are covering wall to wall, we've been here since Monday evening. We we're with Nvidia, Nvidia talking about deep learning, machine learning. Yesterday we had a full slate, we had eight data scientists up on stage yesterday and then we covered the IBM event last night, the rooftop party. Saw David Richards there, hanging out with him, and wall to wall today and tomorrow. Jagane Sundar is here, he is the CTO of WANdisco, great to see you again Jagane. >> Thanks for having me Dave. >> You're welcome. It's been a while since you and I sat down and I know you were on theCUBE recently at Oracle Headquarters, which I was happy to see you there and see the deals that are going on you've got good stuff going on with IBM, good stuff going on with Oracle, the Cloud is eating the world as we sort of predicted and knew but everybody wanted to put their head in the sand but you guys had to accommodate that didn't you. >> We did and if you remember us from a few years ago we were very very interested in the Hadoop space but along the journey we realized that our replication platform is actually much bigger than Hadoop. And the Cloud is just a manifestation of that vision. We had this ability to replicate data, strongly consistent, across wide area networks in different data centers and across storage systems so you can go from HDFS to a Cloud storage system like S3 or Azure Wasabi and we will do it with strong consistency. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than actually providing just replication for the Hadoop platform. So we expanded beyond our initial Hadoop Forex and now we're big in the Cloud. We replicate data to many Cloud providers and customers use us for many use cases like disaster recovery, migration, active/active, Cloud bursting, all of those interesting use cases. >> So any time I get you on theCUBE I like to refresh the 101 for me and for the audience that may not be familiar with it but you say strongly consistent, versus you hear the term eventual consistency, >> Jugane: Correct. >> What's the difference, why is the latter inadequate for the applications that you're serving. >> Right so when people say eventually consistent, what they don't remember is that eventually consistent systems often have different data in the different replicas and once in a while, once every five minutes or 15 minutes, they have to run an anti-entropy process to reconcile the differences and entropy is the total randomness right if you go back to your physics, high school physics. What you're really talking about is having random data and once every 10 minutes making it reconcile and the reconciliation process is very messy, it's like last right winds and the notion of time becomes important, how do you keep time accurate between those. Companies like Google have wonderful infrastructure where they have GPS and atomic clocks and they can do a better job but for the regular enterprise user that's a hard problem so often you get wrong data that's reconciled. So asking the same query you may get different answers and your different replicas. That's a bad sign, you want it consistent enough so you can guarantee results. >> Dave: And you've done this with math, right? >> Exactly, our basis is an algorithm called Paxos, which was invented by a gentleman called Leslie Lamport back in '89 but it took many decades for that algorithm to be widely understood. Our own chief scientists spent over a decade developing those, adding enhancements to make it run over the wide area network. The end result is a strongly consistent system, mathematically proven, that runs over the wide area network and it's completely resistant to failure of all sorts. >> That allows you to sort of create the same type of availability, data consistency as you mentioned Google with the atomic clocks, Spanner I presume, is this fascinating, I mean when the paper came out I was, my eyes were bleeding reading it and but that's the type of capability that you're able to bring to enterprises right? >> That's exactly right, we can bring similar capabilities across diverse networks. You can have regular networking gear, time synchronized by NTP, out in the Cloud, things are running in a virtual machine where time adrift most of the time, people don't realize that VMs are pretty bad at keeping time and all you get up in the Cloud is VMS. Across all those enviroments we can give you strongly consistent replication at the same quality that Google does with their hardware. So that's the value that we bring to the Fortune 500. >> So increasingly enterprises are recognizing that data has an, I don't want to say intrinsic value but data is a source of value in context all by itself. Independent of any hardware, independent of any software. That it's something that needs to be taken care of and you guys have an approach for ensuring that important aspects of it are better taken care of. Not the least of which, is that you can provide an option to a customer who may make a bad technology choice one day to make a better technology choice the next day and not be too worried about dead ending themselves. I'm reminded of the old days when somebody who was negotiating an IBM main frame deal would put an Amdahl coffee cup in front of IBM or put an Oracle coffee cup in front of SAP. Do you find customers metaphorically putting a WANdisco coffee cup in front of those different options and say these guys are ensuring that our data remains ours? >> Customers are a lot more sophisticated now, the scenarios that you pointed out are very very funny but what customers come to us for is the exact same thing, the way they ask it is, I want to move to Cloud X, but I want to make sure that I can also run on Cloud Y and I want to do it seamlessly without any downtime on my on-prem applications that are running. We can give them that. Not only are they building a disaster recovery environment, often they're experimenting with multiple Clouds at the same time and may the better Cloud win. That puts a lot of competition and pressure on the actual Cloud applications they're trying. That's a manifestation in modern Cloud terms of the coffee cup competitor in the face that you just pointed out. Very funny but this how customers are doing it these days. >> So are you using or are they starting to, obviously you are able to replicate with high fidelity with strong fidelity, strong consistency, large volumes of data. Are you starting to see customers, based on that capability actually starting to redesign how they set up their technology plant? >> Absolutely, when customers were talking about hybrid Cloud which was pretty well hyped a year or so ago, they basically had some data on-prem and some other data in the Cloud and they were doing stuff but what we brought to them was the ability to have the same data both on-prem and in the Cloud, maybe you had a weekly analytics job that took a lot of resources. You'd burst that out into the Cloud and run it up there, move the result of that analytics job back on-prem. You'd have it with strong consistency. The result is that true hybrid Cloud is enabled when only when you have the same exact data available in all of your Cloud locations. We're the only company that can provide that so we've got customers that are expanding their Cloud options because of the data consistency we offer. >> And those Cloud options are obviously are increasing >> Jugane: They are. >> But there's also a recognition that it's as we gain more experience with Cloud, that different workloads are better than others as we move up there. Now Oracle with some of their announcements last week may start to push the envelope on that a little bit but as you think about where the need for moving large volumes of data with high, with strong consistency what types of applications do you think people are focusing on? Is it mainly big data or are there other application styles or job types that you think are going to become increasingly important? >> So we've got much more than big data, one of the big sources of leads for us now is our capability to migrate netapp filers up into the Cloud and that has suddenly become very important because an example I'd like to give is a big financial firm that has all of its binaries and applications and user data and netapp filers, the actual data is in HDFS on-prem. They're moving their binaries from the netapp up into the Cloud in a specific Cloud windows equal into the filer and the big data part of it from HDFS up into Cloud object store, we are the only platform that can deal with both in the strong consistent manner that I've talked about and we're a single replication platform so that gives them the ability to make the sort of a migration with very low risk. One of the attributes of our migration is that we do it with no downtime. You don't have to take your online, your on-prem environment offline in order to do the migration so they are doing that so we see a lot of business from that sort of migration efforts where people have data in mass filers, people have data in other non-HDFS storage systems. We're happy to migrate all of those. Our replication platform approach, which we've taken in the last year and a half or so is really paying off in that respect. >> And you couldn't do that with conventional migration techniques because it would take too long, you'd have to freeze the applications? >> A couple of things, one you'd probably have to take the applications offline, second you'd be using tools of periodic synchronization variety such as RSYNC and anybody in the devops or operations whose ever used RSYNC across the wide area network will tell you how bad that experience is. It really is a very bad experience. We've got capability to migrate netapp filer data without imposing a load on the netapp's on-prem so we can do it without pounding the crap out of the netapp's server such that they can't offer service to their existing customers. Very low impact on the network configuration, application configuration. We can go in, start the migration without downtime, maybe it takes two, three days for the data to get up over there because of mavenlink. After that is done, you can start playing with it up in the Cloud. And you can cut over seamlessly so there's so real downtime, that's the capability we've seen. >> But you've also mentioned one data type, binaries, they can't withstand error propagation. >> Jugane: Absolutely. >> And so being able to go to a customer and say you're going to have to move these a couple times over the course of the next n-months or years, as a consequence of the new technology that's now available and we can do so without error propagation is going to have a big impact on how well their IT infrastructure, their IT asset base runs in five years. >> Indeed, indeed. That's very important. Having the ability to actually start the application, having the data in a consistent and true form so you can start, for example, the data base and have it mount the actual data so you can use it up in the Cloud, those are capabilities that are very important to customers. >> So there's another application. If you think about, you tend to be more bulk, the question I'm going to ask is and at what point in time is the low threshold in terms of specific types of data movement. Here's why I'm asking. IOT data is a data source or is a use-case that has often the most stringent physical constraints possible. Time, speed of light, has an implication but also very importantly, this notion of error propagation really matters. If you go from a sensor to a gateway to another gateway to another gateway you will lose bits along the way if you're not very careful. >> Correct. >> And in a nuclear power plant, that doesn't work that way. >> Jugane: Yeah. >> Now we don't have to just look at a nuclear power plant as an example but there's increasingly industrial IOTs starting to dramatically impact not just life and death circumstances but business success or failure. What types of smaller batch use-cases do you guys find yourselves operating in, in places like IOT where this notion of error or air control strong consistency is so critical? >> So one of the most popular applications that use our replication is Spark and Spark Streaming which as you can imagine is a big part of most IOT infrastructure, we can do replication such that you ingest into the closest data center, you go from your server or your car or whatever to the closest data center, you don't have to go multiple hops. We will take care consistency from there on. What that gives you is the ability to say I have 12 data centers with my IOT infrastructure running, one data center goes down, you don't have a downtime at all. It's only the data that was generated inside the data center that's lost. All client machines connecting to that data center will simply connect to another data center, strong replication continues, this gives you the ability to ingest at very large volumes while still maintaining the consistency and IOT is a big deal for us, yes. >> We're out of time but I got a couple of last minute questions if I may. So when you integrate with IBM, Oracle, what kind of technical issues do you encounter, what kind of integration do you have to do, is it lightweight, heavyweight, middleweight? >> It's middleweight I would say. IBM is a great example, they have a deep integration with our product and some of the authentication technology they use was more advanced than what was available in open source at that time. We did a little of work, and they did a little bit of work to make that work, but other than that, it's a pretty straight forward process. The end result is that they have a number of their applications where this is a critical part of their infrastructure. >> Right, and then road map. What can you tell us about, what should we look for in the future, what kind of problems are you going to be solving? >> So we look at our platform as the best replication engine in the world. We're building an SDK, we expect custom plugins for different other applications, we expect more high-speed streaming data such as IOT data, we want to be the choice for replication. As for the plugins themselves, they're getting easier and easier to build so you'll see wide coverage from us. >> Jugane, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, always a pleasure to have you. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're welcome. Alright keep it right there everybody, we'll be back to wrap. This is theCUBE, we're live from NYC. We'll be right back. (upbeat electronic music)