>> As to the adoption challenges, I wasn't clear on where that should go. I mean, I'm happy to just throw it out there. >> You'll again punch it back to me, right? >> Okay. >> Question comes to me and I'm going to pass the ball to Greg to connect the thread on one backbone is needed. Emphasizing Cat 9K that we just talked about. >> And same thing for the last question. The routes to market? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Great. So we'll use that program for everything. Perfect. >> Masum, could you... Yeah, right there. So mark your place and try not to move that seat. That's it. Now, come forward just a tad, just a tad. There we go. Yeah. Okay, that's fine. Okay Alex, we're good. >> Okay. So Leonard don't leave after this 'Cause I'm going to do my outro. I'm going to do that as a separate asset, okay? >> You bet. >> Okay, great. So guys just it'll be five, four, three, silent, two, one. And then just follow my lead, okay? All right, Alex, you're ready? Masum and Greg, you're ready? >> Ready. >> Ready. >> Okay, here we go on me. On Dave in five, four, three, (beep). Okay, we're back. Digging into the infrastructure to make hybrid work possible. High performance, cost effective, scalable, and secure. That's what it's all about. And so far, we've covered the rapid migration to Wi-Fi 6E technology, and the role that switching is going to play. And now we're going to get into Private 5G and to do that, let's welcome Masum Mir, who is Vice President, and General Manager of Mobile, Cable and IoT business at Cisco. And Greg Dorai who is the Vice President of Product Management for the networking experiences group at Cisco. He's responsible for Catalyst access, that whole portfolio, Enterprise 5G, Cisco DNA Spaces, Cisco ISE, a lot of stuff there Greg. And gentlemen, welcome. >> Dave thank you for having us. >> Yeah, our pleasure. Masum let's start with you on the topic of Private 5G. What do we need to know about that? And more specifically, what's unique about Cisco's Private 5G? >> So most importantly, delivering Private 5G in enterprise terms, that's super important to look at 5G. Many of our peer groups might have got it wrong. We're looking at Private 5G with the lens of enterprise, what enterprise really needs. Is 5G going to come and displace a lot of existing technology, or is it going to help augment the technology that enterprise. It has an excellent the digitization journey. I wanted to start Dave with the basic premise of hybrid work. And what hybrid work really means. Is it only for knowledge worker, or is it for all workers? So we strongly believe hybrid work needs to empower all workers. It's not only connecting remote workers but also bringing people, things and space together. And we strongly believe the combination of Wi-Fi 6 and 5G for private network is going to accelerate that journey bringing people, things and space together in a very, very cohesive way. Why our offer is so unique? We are going to create a continuum. Enterprises don't have to make a hard choice. They will be using Wi-Fi technology and 5G technology hand in hand without creating a disruption on their policy and identity systems. They don't have to rethink, "Do I have to go and build a new backbone?" Is a common backbone that will support both Wi-Fi as well as 5G. Most importantly, delivering this entire offer as a service with the ease of consumption, ease of operation, and a trusted environment that they can put their mission critical workload on. >> Now, I like it. So a couple takeaways there. I mean, it's inclusive of all workers not just knowledge workers, non disruptive, everybody loves to hear that. And of course, it has service model as key Masum, let me stay with you. I mean, we can't wait for 5G, right? It's lightning fast, it got super low latency, very high bandwidth. So that's what everybody's excited about. The question though is, 5G gets introduced, yeah it's going to power things like IoT networks. Is that going to replace Wi-Fi and legacy wired broadband? >> Absolutely not. So we see Private 5G as an augmentation to the enterprise on top of Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi as you heard in the previous conversation, Wi-Fi is bringing more capability with Wi-Fi 6 and Wi-Fi 6E. And 5G is going to be yet another augmentation. Wi-Fi and 5G will coexist within enterprise for many years to come. I would like my friend, Greg to talk a little bit about this continuum. Greg? >> Yeah, I think it's sort of like, I like to say it's an and not an or. Because there's enough use cases out there which require spectrum. And you know, spectrum is a constraint. So you have Private 5G, your Wi-Fi 6, and both offer opportunities. So for example, in an indoor carpeted setting where you're basically connecting your phone for basic browsing, or connecting your laptop, Wi-Fi is sufficient. But if it's a process automation factory where you need seven nines of reliability, Private 5G is the better technology. Similarly outdoor, large areas, it's probably Private 5G, right? 'Cause you can have easy handoff between public and private. So it's use case driven. And once it's use case driven, it's going to be an or because there's so many next-gen use cases. Whether it's AR VR, drones, you know, self-driving cars you name it, right? And so I think these two technologies, 5G and Wi-Fi 6E is going to work hand in hand to deliver awesome outcomes for our customers. >> Yeah. And just the data volumes are going to be incredible. We always talk about the data volumes. You ain't seen nothing yet is what I always say. But the thing is every new tech that's introduced into the enterprise, you can almost be certain that it's going to bring adoption challenges. And not only that, it also is going to bring changes in the way you do things. And that brings new complexities from an operational standpoint. So my question is, how are you addressing this with the introduction of 5G? >> Dave, this is a fantastic question. And this is why we have spent, me and Greg have spent tremendous amount of time to create continuum. I'll start with the foundation first, backbone. So we have been building this enterprise backbone supported with wired connection as well as Wi-Fi connection. We wanted to make sure that as Private 5G comes within enterprise, you don't have to rethink and reimagine your backbone. It's the common backbone that will support what Wi-Fi, Wi-Fi 6, Wi-Fi 6E, as well as Private 5G. You're rest assured that it is the same backbone that we have heard in the previous section on the Cat 9K that will also support a Private 5G access. The second aspect of Private 5G is as you build any new technology into enterprise often time we get into this trap. To get to an outcome, we move fast and we create a silo. And then that silo operation creates barriers to mainstream it. So upfront, we have to think about not creating another silo. And how we are doing it. Number one, is a device that can connect into Wi-Fi network or a Private 5G network. You don't have to reimagine or rethink how I'm going to manage the identity. We'll create continuum with a common identity across the Wi-Fi access or 5G access in the same environment. The second aspect of that is how are we going to retain all our staff? Our enterprise staff is well trained with Wi-Fi technology and wired technology. Now 5G comes with tremendous amount of value and benefit. But it also comes with inherent technology complexity, learning curve problem. This is where our simple to consume, simple to operate model of SaaS comes to play. That we're going to take all those complexity away. It is a cloud delivered service. So enterprise don't have to go through this massive learning curve adopting this technology. Last but not least, on how we are going to manage your capital. Any new technology and enterprise often time, you need huge amount of upfront investment to adopt the technology to get to the other side of getting the outcome. So again, our business model of SaaS will allow enterprise to adopt this new technology and pay as your grow model to meet with enterprise needs. Finally, I also wanted to pass to Greg to touch a little bit more on how we are thinking about this common identity across any access in the enterprise. Greg, to you. >> So we thought about it in two different ways. One is, a lot of enterprises today use our identity and secure management platform. We call it ISE, Cisco ISE platform. And so, years and years of policy and identities, and which access servers, radio servers they use et cetera, are plugged in already into our ISE, right? So, if you can share that with this Private 5G as a service infrastructure that Masum's been building, we think we'll be able to create that bridge. Because we are not forcing enterprises to create new identities or new policies. So that's sort of step one to make it easier. We also thought through so something where in the case of a public 5G network, for example. It's very convenient because you take your phone out of your pocket and it's connected to the network, right? Versus for wifi, you have to log into an SSID in your hotel, or in your home, and in home, it's automatic. But that's that login process that creates friction. And that's a problem because then you can't be seamless. So we initiated what we call as open roaming, right? Like that's a identity federation that we first created between identity owners. Could be carriers, could be anything, right? Anyone who owns an identity. And they will share with venues. And so if the sharing happens, then that onboarding can be automatic. And once onboarding is automatic, then it's easy to pass off between Wi-Fi and 5G. And so that's again, another way in which you can lower the adoption barriers 'cause you share across public Private 5G and Wi-Fi networks. So these are two concrete examples of how we thought about lowering the barriers of adoption as we enter into this heterogeneous world. >> Nice, I can't wait. Let's talk about how this thing, scales in the go to market. What are the most likely, or maybe preferred, or obvious routes to market for Private 5G from Cisco? >> So Dave stay tuned right when they announce more about it. But I can also assure you that access to this spectrum is a challenge for many enterprises when it comes to cellular technology. In some countries there are more spectrum accessible by enterprise. In many countries, that's not the case. So we have thought through very carefully that how do we bring this offer to the market partnering with many service providers and mobile operators. Where in countries where you don't have direct access to the spectrum, our partnership with mobile operators, that you will hear more about as we come to Mobile World Congress, is going to allow our enterprise to consume this technology. even if they don't have the spectrum. In the places where the enterprise might have spectrum access, we'll also in our manage service providers to hide the complexity of the new technology on top of our SaaS services, or cloud delivered services. This is the augmentation with the partnership with manage service providers and mobile operators that will ease this journey for enterprises. Our most important primitive in this journey is to keep it simple for enterprise, make it intuitive, and trust it from day one. >> Outstanding. Okay, Masum, Greg, thanks so much. It was great to have you guys on. I really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> In a moment, I'll be back with some closing thoughts and an opportunity for you to actually see this technology in action and talk to the experts directly. Keep it right there.

perfect all right we're good uh muhammad you ready yeah i have a watery eyes always so i always tell my interviewers or the producers that sometimes it shouldn't there shouldn't be a problem in the 10-minute window but well yeah so do that while i'm talking you'll see it on the return feed it's a little delayed but and most people have tears when they see dave vellante yeah i i have that effect on people thanks for that okay we all said we good leonard why don't you go alex bye-bye yeah alex got the i just got the thumbs up we're good okay muhammad here we go on dave in five four three we continue now with the network powering hybrid work now we just heard from lawrence wang on the rapid move to wi-fi 6e which is going to increase wi-fi efficiency enable routers and devices to more efficiently use bandwidth and that additional spectrum that lawrence talked about that means more wi-fi channels which is really going to help reduce overlap between networks and make a noticeable difference especially in crowded places we're here now with muhammad imam who's senior director of product management for catalyst switching this is a multi-billion dollar business for cisco if you ever listen to cisco's earnings calls you'll hear the cfo scott heron he'll talk about the catalyst 9000 and double-digit growth and switching this is the fastest ramping product in cisco's history so muhammad that's got to make you feel pretty good yes indeed thank you david and thank you for having me here yeah great to have you so uh look catalyst 9000 it's been really successful what does the 9000x bring to the table for your customers yeah absolutely and um indeed the catalyst 9000 family of switches have been extremely popular with our customers as you said fastest ramping product in cisco's history and the last four or five years we have really evolved the catalyst 9000 family of switches to a very comprehensive product portfolio um addressing the various enterprise use cases that that we that we address but now we see increase in demand on the networks and that really stems from some of the most recent trends that we are seeing right part of it is hybrid workspaces is going to be a video dominant hybrid workspace right a lot of cases is going to be high definition 4k 8k videos we are seeing cloud-based applications everywhere right my spreadsheet is used to be on excel sheet now it's either an office 365 or smartsheets my files used to be on my computer now it's on in the dropbox right so these are trends that are really uh putting pressure on our networks we are also seeing trends where vr headsets are becoming common they are being used for trainings and education use cases webex hologram in certain industries we are seeing robotics are becoming more and more popular and they come with a lot of um applications that are very latency sensitive and as lawrence mentioned earlier wi-fi 6e is really making over the year multi gigabit wi-fi possible right and for all of these different trends and the recent technologies that that are evolving we really need the network that can really address and deliver for these applications and that's where we are bringing the catalyst 9000 x that addresses the increase in network demand we are expanding the catalyst 9000 family with top-of-line premium introductions in the access layer of the switches of the network as well as in the aggregation and core layers so we are bringing 400 gig high-speed core and enterprise core and edge layers of the network we are bringing point-to-point ip ipsec security which will give you 100 gig of ipsec encryption um high density of multi-gigabit which is becoming very common as we evolve our wi-fi networks because we don't want our wired infrastructure to be the bottleneck when the wireless infrastructure is capable of going more than a gig high density of 90 watt powering the smart buildings use cases right right um these are all different use cases that are being enabled by the catalyst 9000 and the new getless 9000x family is really addressing some of these new trends and applications well it's good because the metaverse is coming too and we're going to need some help with that right who knows how much bandwidth will need for metabolism absolutely yeah guarantee will be a lot more but so i want to i want to hear more about the the new products that you've just launched and maybe how these offerings are going to help with this new hybrid work model that we've just been discussing absolutely so let me start with the catalyst 9300 we are introducing the catalyst 9300x which is the highest density full multi-gigabit platform with 100 gig uplinks and 90 watt of power on every port available right that's an industry first that we are bringing on the catalyst 9300 family it is also capable of one terabit per second of a stacking which is also unheard of in the industry this will serve our customers with all the new trends that we talked about including the hybrid world um and some of the new trends that are going to come in the next decade but 9300x is not just a high-end campus switch it can also be a lean branch and a box solution where you don't really need an sd van but you do need an encryption point to point from the catalyst 93 from your front branch with the catalyst 9300x to the data center or to the cloud so for the first time we are introducing the ipsec based encryption natively in the hardware and that means no compromise on performance and you can get up to 100 gig of encrypted traffic with the catalyst 9300x second is the catalyst 9400 we are introducing soup 2 and soup 2 xl with 100 gig uplinks enhancing and the the scale and performance giving our customers options for fully loaded line rate multi give it board on a 10 slot chassis right it will give you two to three times bandwidth boost to your existing line cards since it completely removes the over subscriptions and you know the soup 2 on the catalyst 9400 is coming up with the version of the asic that we used in the past on the catalyst 9600 that means it's also bringing the core capabilities that we used that we today have on 9600 on the catalyst 9400 and that brings high density 10 gig um ports on the catalyst 9400 without over subscription right with the core capabilities then we have the catalyst 9600 where we are introducing is supervisor 2 which really triples the bandwidth per slot on the catalyst 98600 it introduces 400 gig uplink and truly drives the transition to 200 gig in the core get 6k customers uh with excel scale requirements now they can transition to the cat 9k with soup 2. and by the way we are also introducing a combo line card on the catalyst 9600 which means now you don't have to burn a whole slot for your uplink pores in fact you can get up to 400 gig of uplink with this new line card um so that's that's a bunch of things that we are bringing on the catalyst 9600 in line with catalyst 9600 we are also introducing catalyst 9500x 100 gig box with 400 gig uplinks in a fixed form factor and all the benefits that i just talked about on the on the supervisor 2 and 9600 it's also available in a fixed form factor on catalyst 9500x got it so that's in summary kind of the multiple uh product lines that we are introducing yeah it's a lot to unpack there i mean your the big theme there of course is optionality you got a lot of choices for customers i love the encrypt everything without a trade-off you know no performance impact and anytime you can reduce my oversubscription it's going to make me happy you know muhammad we've reported in our breaking analysis segments the importance of custom silicon and not every company has the resources or the expertise to develop their own silicon cisco of course does catalyst 9k is bringing silicon 1 based products with this launch tell us more about that why is this important yeah that's really exciting development that we have on the cad 9k family because you know the silicon one is a powerful asic that enables high performance and high scale with modern silicon architecture bringing the architect a converged architecture for switching as well as routing cad 9k as we know has been running on a uadp asic which has been a programmable asic it has served us really well so far on the cat9k family but with the silicon one we are taking it to another level silicon one brings the capabilities of uadp asic and unlocks the excel scale and high performance in the enterprise switches this is a critical and foundational element to meet the core requirement for the next ticket silicon one is a 12.8 terabits per second chip supports up to 10 million routes supports much deeper buffers brings multi-slice voq architectures with this new architecture silicon 1a6 has paved the way to transition the cad 6k xl deployments to cat 9k right so that's kind of the the um the silicon one uh importance in the ket99k family that we are bringing now yeah and it brings differentiation a lot of people kind of sometimes don't appreciate that but but when you have the control like that you can do things that you might not be able to do with off-the-shelf silicon but so but i i want to ask you what about customers that previously purchased from you as you evolve the portfolio to 9k x how do you protect their investment yeah thank you for asking that question because when we started building the cad 9k we always thought about investment protection for our customers so if you buy today how you will have a very long life for that for that product and you will be able to unlock new powers on that platform that you have purchased maybe five years back right that's exactly what we are doing with the catalyst 199000x talking about modular right on the modular side the supervisors that that that we are introducing now are backward compatible with the line cars that you already have in some cases the lime card throughput is doubling and tripling because now you have a new machine that is going to power these line cards right so you don't have to change your line card you just change your supervisor and you have much higher performance and scale with this new supervisor similarly on the stackables you can stack with the existing catalyst 9300s for example and you will be able to you don't have to rip and replace everything it's not a forklift upgrade for our customers you can continue benefiting from your existing catalyst 9000 deployments and add to the power with the catalyst 9000x components as well as new platforms that we are introducing nice that's key this just speaks to the software content that you guys i know you have a lot of software engineers running around and this is welcome to the 2020s folks new world you know i i muhammad zero trust was kind of a buzzword before the pandemic but it's really become a mainstream topic today we talked about the infrastructure we know security has to be built in from the start it can't be bolted on and zero trust is really top of mind for customers how are their security requirements changing as a result of hybrid work and and how do you make sure that as we shift to hybrid that these new security requirements are addressed what are you doing there absolutely and we know as you said security is top of mind for our customers in fact security has been highlighted as the number one reason why a lot of customers pick cisco and cat9k we have a comprehensive zero truss architecture with software defined access where we started with segmentation and expanded into endpoint classification and visibility now we are taking that to the next level and we are introducing talus powered truss assessment for unmanaged endpoints to further make the the workplace is stronger with zero trust and software defined access truss analytics it detects traffic from end points that are exhibiting unusual um behavior by pretending to be um using a mag spoofing or probe is spoofing or man the metal techniques when truss analytics detects such anomalies it signals endpoint analytics to lower the trusted score so we have a trusted score system when when the trusted score goes down it shows up on the dashboard and the network admin can completely deny or limit the access to the network from these endpoints from other security aspect that we are introducing and i touched on that briefly earlier is um for non-sdvan internet only branches where we are where where services security services might be in the cloud right that's a trend that we are seeing to secure that connectivity from a lean branch to the cloud we are introducing the ipsec capability with the catalyst 9300x and that's built in as as we just talked about and as far as the automation is concerned for these use cases they are we are bringing those automation with our command center the cisco dna center and we are bringing the full life cycle of automation as well as assurance for the secure connectivity that is being provided with the with the cisco dna center well a couple takeaways there for me i mean endpoint security has really become much more important up for obvious reasons when you have remote workers the built-in ipsec just that really emphasizes that you got to have it you know built in from the ground up you can't just bolt it on and the automation is key the number one problem that csos face is you know lack of talent so automation you know definitely helps helps with that so okay muhammad thank you so much really appreciate you coming on in a moment we'll look at private 5g and what's been happening at mobile world congress you're watching cube's coverage of the network powering hybrid work made possible by cisco

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. To the cubes coverage of ADB has re-invent 2021. I'm John fare with Dave Nicholson. My cohost we're here exploring all the future innovations. We've got a great guest we'll lead negam who's the EVP executive vice president chief research innovation officer cap, Gemini engineering will lead. Thanks for coming on the cube. Thank you. So I love the title, chief research, innovation engineering officer. >>I didn't make it up. They did. >>You got to love the cloud evolution right now because just more and more infrastructure as codes happening. You got this whole data abstraction layer developing where people are starting to see. Okay. I can have horizontally scalable governed data in a data lake. That's smart, someone intelligent and use machine learning. It seems to be the big trend here from AWS. More serverless, more goodness. So engineering kind of on the front lines here kind of making it happen. >>Yeah. So, uh, the question that our clients are asking us is how do these data center technologies moving over into cars, planes, trains, construction, equipment, industrial, right? And you know, maybe two decades ago it was called IOT. Uh, but we're not talking about just sensors, vertical lift aircraft, uh, software-defined cars, um, manufacturing facilities as a whole, you know, how are these data center technologies going to impact these companies? And it's not a architectural shift for say the Evie, the electric vehicle, many OEM, it's a financial transformation, right? Because if they can make their vehicle containerized, uh, if they can monitor the cars, behaviors, they can offer new types of experiences for their clients. So the questions we were asking ourselves is how do you get the cloud into the car? >>Yeah. And software driving, all that. So you've got software defined everything. Now you've got data-driven pun intended with the cars cloud everywhere. How does that look? What are the concerns, obviously, latency moving data around. They got outposts. Am I moving the cloud to the edge? How are you guys thinking? How are customers thinking through the architectural, I guess foundational playbook? Is there one? Yeah. >>I, you know, coming into this, I did ask my, my son, the question is hardware or software more important. And then he, you know, he's not, and he said, you know, we're coding our way out of hardware. It was very interesting insight software rules. That that is for sure. But when we're talking about physical products and these talking about trillions of dollars of investments going into green energy, uh, into autonomous driving into green aviation. So we're not, it's not just the matter of verse here. We're dealing real physical products. I think though the point for us as engineers or as an engineering businesses, how do you co-design hardware and software together? What are the questions you to ask about that machine learning model being moved over from AWS? For example, into the car, is the Silicon going to be able to support the inferencing rates that are required right. In real time and whatnot. So some of the things like that, >>Well, that's been a, it's been an age old battle between the idea that, uh, the flour that's nurtured in a walled garden is always going to be more beautiful than the one that grows out in the meadow. In other words, announcement, uh, at, in Adam's keynote, talking about advances in AWS Silicon. So what's your view on how important that is? You just sort of alluded to it as being important, the co-development of hardware and software together. >>Yeah. We're seeing product makers again, think, you know, anybody from a life sciences company building a digital therapeutics product, maybe a blood glucose monitor or, um, an automotive or even an aerospace, uh, going direct to Silicon asking questions around the performance of the Silicon and designing their experience around that. Right. So, uh, if they need a low latency, low power efficiency, green networks, they're taking those questions in-house or asking those questions in house. So, you know, AWS having a, sort of a portfolio of custom or bespoke Silicon now as part of the architectural discussion. Right? And so I look around here, I see a lot of developers who are going to have to get a little bit more versed in some of these questions around, you know, should I use an arm based chip? You know, do I use this Silicon partner? You know, what happens when I move it into the vehicle? And then I have over the air updates, how do I protect that code in an enclave in the car just to continue to use the so there's are a lot of architectural questions that I don't think software engineers typically ask when they're just dealing in the cloud. Uh, although at the end of the day over time, a lot of these will be abstracted from the developer to some degree, you know, that is just the nature of the game. >>It reminds me of the operating system theory of system software meeting hardware. And because you have software developers just want to code now, you're saying, well, now I'm responsible hardware. Well, not if it's programmer, was there a hard top two it's over, these are big questions and important ones I think is we're in a major inflection point, but it comes back down to, you mentioned aerospace space is the same problem. You can't send that break, fix engineer in space. Right. You've got software now. So you've got trust that security supply chain who's right. And who's doing the hardware now you've got the software supply chain. So a lot of interesting kind of, yeah. >>So you, you, you know, you check them off, back in into it, the supply chain problems with Silicon, and there are now alternatives to try and get around the bottlenecks using high-performance computers versus hundreds of ECS and a vehicle allows you kind of get away from the supply chain shortage. Uh there's you know, folks moving from one architecture to another, to avoid kind of getting locked in and then of course creating your own Silicon, or at least having more ownership over the Silicon. I think suffer defined systems, uh, are the way to go regardless of the industry. Uh, so you're going to make some decisions on performance, characteristics of the hardware, but ultimately you want a software defined system, so you can update it regularly. >>I was talking with doc some of the top hair executives. I talked to, um, the marketplace guys here, Deepak, uh, over at the, here at Amazon and containers comes up. You start to see a trend in containers where you see certified containers because containers are everywhere. You can put malware and containers. So, you know, think about like just hacking software. It's a surface area now. So you bring the software security model in there. So to see this kind of like certified containers, I can imagine certified infrastructure now because I mean, what's a processor, it's just a hardened top to a PC. Now you've got the cloud. If I have hardware, how do I know it's workable? How do I trust it? You know, how could it not be hacked? I don't want my car to be hacked and driven off the road. >>So, so, um, when you're dealing with a payment system or you're dealing with tick-tock different than when you're dealing with a car with life consequences. So we are very active in the software defined transformation of automotive. And it's easy to say, I'm just going to load it up with all this data center technology, but there's safety criticality issues that you have to take into considerations, but containers are well suited for that. Just requires some thought. I mean, my excitement, enthusiasm about this product engineering is if you just take any of these products and, and apply them into a product engineering context, there's so much invention and creativity can happen. Uh, but on the safety side, we're working through security enclaves using containers and hardware based roots of trust. So there's ways around, you know, malware and bad actors at the edge. Um, >>What's your, what's your take on explainable AI? Why got you might as well ask because this comes up a lot, explainable AI is hot in college right now, AI, that can be explained. It's kind of got some policy, uh, to it. What's your thoughts on this AI trend? Cause obviously it's everywhere. Um, I mean, what is explainable AI? Is that even real or how do you explain AI? Is that democratized? >>Yeah. Computer vision is a great example. I think to bring it to life I'm all of the audience probably knows this, but you could, you know, you can tell your kid that this is a cat once and they'll know every single cat out there is a cat, but if you, you, you need a thousands of images, uh, for a computer vision model to learn that this is a cat. And even, you know, you can probably give it an example, um, out of say a remote region of the world and it going to get confused. So to me, explainability is about adding some sort of certainty to the decision-making process. Um, and when there's a, some confusion, be able to understand why that happened. I think in, in automotive or any, even in quality assurance, being able to know that this product was definitively defective or this pedestrian definitively did cross the crosswalk or not. You know, it's very important because it could, you know, there are, there are consequences. So just being able to understand why the algorithm or the model said what it said, why did it make that judgment is super important, super important. >>So I've got to ask you now that we're here, re-invent from your engineering perspectives, you look at the landscape of AWS, the announcements. What, what, how do you think about it to other engineers out there trying to, uh, grok all the technology who really want to put innovation in place, whether it's creating new markets, new categories or innovating their existing business, how do you grab the class out and make it work for you? I mean, from an engineering standpoint, how do you look at AWS and say, how do I make this work better for me? >>Uh, so I mean, over the years, I, um, I think it's true. AWS has started to really look like a utility, you know, the days where it was called utility as a service. And, um, you know, I, I, I did attend a workshop on, I think it was called LightSail or something like that, but they are simplifying the way that you can consume this infrastructure to a degree that is somewhat phenomenal. Uh, and they're building any, yeah, they continue to expand the ecosystem. Um, so I mean, for me, it's, it's a utility. Uh, it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's consumable. Uh, if you got an idea pick and roll your own. >>Okay. So back back to the, uh, the concept of AI and explainability, uh, one of my cars won't allow me to unlock certain functions because of the way that I drive. No one needs to explain to me why, because I know what I'm doing wrong, but I'm still frustrated by it. So that that's sort of leads to kind of the larger philosophical question to you about what you're seeing, where are we in this kind of leapfrog, constant pace of the technology exists, but people aren't culturally ready to accept it because it feels like right now to me that there isn't anything we can't do with cloud technology from a technical perspective, it can all be done. Swami's keynote today, talking about integrating all sorts of sources of data and actually leveraging them in the cloud. Um, technically possible yet 85% of it spend is still on prem. So, so what's your thought there? What are the, what are the inhibitors, what are the real inhibitors from a technology perspective versus the cultural ones? Uh, setting aside my lack of, uh, adherence to, uh, to driving lawful >>I industry by industry. I think in, um, you know, if you're trying to do a diagnostic on an MRI in an automated way, and there's going to be false positives, false negatives, and yes, we know that yeah, we know that there's going to be a physician participating in the final judgment call. Um, I think just getting a really good comfort level on the trustworthiness of these decision points, um, is really important. And so I don't blame folks for being reticent about, you know, trusting or, or asking some questions about, does this really work and are these autonomous systems as they become more and more precise, are they doing the right thing? Uh, I think there's research that has to be done on agency. You know, am I in patrol? What happened? Did I lose control? I think there's questions around handoffs, you know, and participation in decision-making. So I think just overall, just the broad area of trust and, uh, the relationship between the participants, the humans and the machines still. I think there's some work to do, to be honest with you. I think there's some work to do maybe in a manufacturing facility where everything's automated, you know, maybe it's a solved problem, but in an open road, when the vehicles driving, you know, in the middle afternoon, you know, you probably should ask some more questions. >>Well, I want to ask you what we got a couple of minutes left, real time data near real time, real time, always a big, hot topic. Seeing one more databases out there in the keynote today from Swami real-time are we there yet? How are we dealing with real-time data, software consuming the data? It comes to cars and things that are moving real time versus near real time. It could be life or death. I mean, this is big time. Where are we? >>So, um, I was trying to conduct a web conference. I won't tell the vendor because it has nothing to do with the vendor. Um, and I couldn't get a connection. I couldn't get a connection at reinvent. I just couldn't get it. I'm sorry guys. I can't get it. So I, you know, so we talk about real time talking about real-time operating systems and real time data collection at the edge. Yeah. We're there, we can collect the data and we can deploy a model in, you know, in the aircraft on the train to do predictive analytics. If we got to stream that data back home to the cloud, you know, we better figure out how to make sure we have a reliable and stable connection. 5g is a, you know, is, is, will be deployed, right? And it has ultra low latency, uh, and can achieve those types of, uh, requirements. But, uh, you know, it has to be in the right setting, right? That's to be the right setting and a facility, uh, very well controlled where you understand the density of the cell sites, small cells sound cells, and you really can deploy a, uh, a mobile robot, uh, wirelessly. Yes know, we can do that, but you know, kind of in, in, in other scenarios, we have a lot of ask that question about >>With the connections and making that false, huh? Well, he, thanks for coming on. Great insight, great conversation. Very deep, awesome work. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights from cap Gemini. We're here in the cube, the worldwide leader in tech coverage live on the floor here at re-invent I'm John fare with Dave Nicholson. We write back.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Cisco is a company at the crossroads. It's transitioning from a high margin hardware business to a software subscription-based model, which also should be high margin through both organic moves and targeted acquisitions. It's doing so in the context of massive macro shifts to digital in the cloud. We believe Cisco's dominant position in networking combined with a large market opportunity and a strong track record of earning customer trust, put the company in a good position to capitalize on cloud momentum. However, there are clear challenges ahead for Cisco, not the least of which is the growing complexity of its portfolio, a large legacy business, and the mandate to maintain its higher profitability profile as it transitions into a new business model. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we welcome in Zeus Kerravala, who's the founder and principal analyst at ZK Research, long time Cisco watcher who together with me crafted the premise of today's session. Zeus, great to see you welcome to the program. >> Thanks Dave. It's always a pleasure to be with you guys. >> Okay, here's what we're going to talk about today, set the agenda. The catalyst for this session, Zeus and I attended Cisco's financial analyst day. We received a day and a half of firehose presentations, drill downs, interactions, Q and A with Cisco execs and one key customer. So we're going to share our takeaways from these sessions and add our additional thoughts. Now, in particular, we're going to talk about Cisco's TAM, its transformation to a subscription-based model, and how we see that evolving. As always, we're going to bring in some ETR spending data for context and get Zeus' take on what that tells us. And we'll end with a summary of Cisco's cloud strategy and outlook for how it could win in the cloud. So let's talk about Cisco's sort of structure and TAM opportunities. First, Zeus, Cisco has four main lines of business where it's organized it's executives around sort of four product areas. And it's got a large service component as well. Network equipment, SP routing, data center, collaboration that security, and as I say services, that's not necessarily how it's going to market, but that's kind of the way it organizes its ELT, its executive leadership team. >> Yeah, the in fact, the ELT has been organized around those products, as you said. It used to report to the street three product segments, infrastructure platforms, which was by far the biggest, it was all their networking equipment, then applications, and then security. Now it's moved to five new segments, secure agile networks, hybrid work, end to end security, internet for the future and optimized app experiences. And I think what Cisco's trying to do is align their, the way they report along the lines of the way customers buy. 'Cause I think before, you know, they had a very simplistic model before. It was just infrastructure, apps, and security. The ELT is organized around product roadmap and the product innovation, but that's not necessarily the way customers purchase things and so, purchase things so I think they've tried to change things a little bit there. When you look at those segments though, you know, by, it's interesting. They're all big, right? So, by far the biggest distilled networking, which is almost a hundred billion dollar TAM as they reported and they have it growing a about a 9% CAGR as reported by other analyst firms. And when you think about how mature networking is Dave, the fact that that's still growing at high single digit CAGR is still pretty remarkable. So I think that's one of those things that, you know, watchers of Cisco historically have been calling for the network to be commoditized for decades. For as long as I've been watching Cisco, we've been, people have been waiting for the network to be commoditized. My thesis has always been, if you can drive enough innovation into things, you can stave off commoditization and that's what they've done. But that's really the anchor for them to sell all their other products, some of which are higher margin, some which are a little bit sore, but they're all good high margin businesses to your point. >> Awesome. We're going to dig into that. So, so they flattened the organization when Geckler left. You've got Todd Nightingale, Jonathan Davidson, Liz Centoni, and Jeetu Patel who we heard from and we'll make some comments on what we heard from them. One of the big takeaways at the financial analysts meeting was on the TAM, as you just mentioned. Liz Centoni who also is heavily involved in strategy and the CFO Scott Herren, showed this slide, which speaks to the company's TAM and the organizational structure that you were just talking about. So the big message was that Cisco has got a large and growing market, you know, no shortage of available market. Somewhere between eight and 900 billion, depending on which of the slides you pull out of the deck. And ironically Zeus, when you look at the current markets number here on the right hand side of this slide, 260 billion, it just about matches the company's market cap. Maybe an interesting coincidence, but at any rate, what was your takeaway from this data? >> Well, I think, you know, the big takeaway from the data is there's still a lot of room ahead for Cisco to grow, right? Again, this is a, it's a company that I think most people would put in the camp of legacy IT vendor, just because of how long they've been around. But they have done a very good job of staving off innovation. And part of that is just these markets that they play in continue to grow and they continue to have challenges that they can solve. I think one of the things Cisco has done though, since the arrival of Chuck Robbins, is they don't fight these trends anymore, Dave. I know prior to Chuck's arrival, they really fought the tide of software defined networking and you know, trends like that, and even cloud to some extent. And I remember one of the first meetings I had with Chuck, I asked him about that and he said that Cisco will never do that again. That under his watch, if customers are going through a market transition, Cisco wants to lead them through it, not try and hold them back. And I think for that reason, they're able to look at, all of those trends and try and take a leadership position in them, even though you might look at some of those and feel that some of them might be detrimental to Cisco's business in the short term. So something like software defined WANs, which you would throw into secure agile networks, certainly doesn't, may not carry the same kind of RPOs and margins with it that their traditional routers did, but ultimately customers are going to buy it and Cisco would like to be the ones to sell it to them. >> You know, you bring up a great point. This industry is littered, there's a graveyard of executives who fought the trend. Many people, some people remember Ken Olson of Digital Equipment Corporation. "Unix is snake oil," is what he said. IBM mainframe guys said, "PCs are a toy." And of course the history, they were the wrong side of history. The other big takeaway was the shift to software in subscription. They really made a big point of this. Here's a chart Cisco showed a couple of times to make the point that it's one of the largest software companies in the world. You know, in the top 10. They also made the point that Chuck Robbins, when he joined in 2015, and since that time, it's nearly 4x'ed it's subscription software revenue, and roughly doubled its software sales. And it now has an RPO, remaining performance obligations, that exceeds 30 billion. And it's committing to grow its subscription business in the forward-looking statements by 15 to 17% CAGR through 25, which would imply about a doubling of these, the blue lines. Zeus, it's unclear if that forward-looking forecast is just software. I presume it includes some services, but as Herren pointed out, over time, these services will be bundled into the product revenue, same way SAS companies do it. But the point is Cisco is committed, like many of their peers, to moving to an ARR model. But please, share your thoughts on Cisco's move to software subscriptions and how you see the future of consumption-based pricing. >> Yeah, this has been a big shift for Cisco, obviously. It's one that's highly disruptive. It's one that I know gave their partners a lot of angst for a long time because when you sell things upfront, you get a big check for selling that, right? And when you sell things in a subscription model, you get a much smaller check for a number of months over the period of the contract. It also changes the way you deal with the customer. When you sell a one-time product, you basically wipe your hands. You come back in three or four years and say, "it's time to upgrade." When you sell a subscription, now, the one thing that I've tried to talk to Cisco and its partners about is customers don't renew things they don't use. And so it becomes incumbent on the partner, it becomes incumbent upon Cisco to make sure that things that the customer is subscribing to, that they do use. And so Cisco's had to create a customer success organization. They've had to help their partners create those customer success organizations. So it's really changed the model. And Cisco not only made the shift, they've done it faster than they actually had originally forecast. So during the financial analyst day, they actually touted their execution on software, noting that it hit it's 30% revenue as percent of total target well before it was supposed to, it's actually exceeded its targets. And now it's looking to increase that to, it actually raised its guidance in this area a little bit by a few percentage points, looking out over the next few years. And so it's moved to the subscription model, Dave, the thing that you brought up, which I do see as somewhat of a challenge is the shift to consumption-based pricing. So subscription is one thing in that I write you a check every month for the same amount. When I go to the consumption-based pricing, that's easy to do for cloud services, things like WebEx or Duo or, you know, CloudLock, some of the security products. That that shift should be relatively simple. If customers want to buy it that way. It's unclear as to how you do that when you're selling on-prem equipment with the software add-on to it because in that case, you have to put metering technology in to understand how much they're using. You have to have a minimum baseline to start with. They've done it in some respects. The old HCS product that they sold, the Telcos, actually was sold with a minimum commit and then they tacked on a utilization on top of that. So maybe they move into that kind of model. But I know it's something that they've, they get asked about a lot. I know they're still thinking about it, but it's something that I believe is coming and it's going to come pretty fast. >> I want to pick up on that because I think, you know, they made the point that we're one of the top 10 software companies in the world. It's very difficult for hardware companies to make the transition to software. You know, HP couldn't do it. >> Well, no one's done it. >> Well, IBM has kind of done it, but they really struggle. It's kind of this mishmash of tooling and software products that aren't really well-integrated. But, I would say this, everybody now, Cisco, Dell, HPE with GreenLake, Lenovo, pretty much all the traditional hardware players are trying to move to an as a service model or at least for a portion of their business. HPE's all in, Dell transitioning. And for the most part, I would make the following observation. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this. They're pretty much following a SAS like model, which in my view is outdated and kind of flawed from a customer standpoint. All these guys say, "Hey, we're doing this because "this is what the customers want." I think the cloud is really a true consumption based model. And if you look at modern SAS companies, a lot of the startups, they're moving to a consumption based model. You see that with Snowflake, you see that with Stripe. Now they will offer incentives. But most of the traditional enterprise players, they're saying, "Okay, pay us upfront, "commit to some base level. "If you go over it, you know, "we'll charge you for it. "If you go under it, you're still going to pay "for that base level." So it's not true consumption base. It's not really necessarily the customer's best interest. So that's, I think there's some learnings there that are going to have to play out. >> Yeah, the reason customers are shying away from that SAS type model, I think during the pandemic, the one thing we learned, Dave, is that the business will ebb and flow greatly from month to month sometimes. And I was talking with somebody that worked for one of the big hotel chains, and she was telling me that what their CRM providers, she wouldn't tell me who it was, except said it rhymed with Shmalesforce, that their utilization of it went from, you know, from a nice steady level to spiking really high when customers started calling in to cancel hotel rooms. And then it dropped down to almost nothing as we went through that period of stay at home. And now it's risen back up. And so for her, she wanted to move to a consumption-based model because what happens otherwise is you wind up buying for peak utilization, your software subscriptions go largely underutilized the majority of the year, and you wind up paying, you know, a lot more than you need to. If you go to more of a true consumption model, it's harder to model out from a financial perspective 'cause there's a lot of ebbs and flows in the business, but over a longer period of time, it's more cost-effective, right? And so the, again, what the pandemic taught us was we don't really know what we're going to need from a consumption standpoint, you know, nevermind a year from now, maybe even six months from now. And consumption just creates a lot more flexibility and agility. You can scale up, you can scale down. You can bring in users, you can take out users, you can add consultants, things like that. And it just, it's much more aligned with the way businesses are run today. >> Yeah, churn is a silent killer of a software company. And so there's retention is the key here. So again, I think there's lots of learning. Let's put Cisco into context with some of its peers. So this chart we developed compares five companies to Cisco. Core Dell, meaning Dell, without VMware. VMware, HPE, IBM, we've put an AWS, and then Cisco as, IBM, AWS and Cisco is the integrated plays. So the chart shows the latest quarterly revenue multiplied by four to get a run rate, a three-year growth outlook, gross margin percentage, market cap, and revenue multiple. And the key points here are that one, Cisco has got a pretty awesome business model. It's got 60% gross margin, strong operating margins, not shown here, but in the mid twenties, 25%. It's got a higher growth rate than most of its peers. And as such, a much better, multiple than say, for instance, Core Dell gets 33 cents on the revenue dollar. HPE is double that. IBM's below two X. Cisco's revenue multiple rivals VMware, which is a pure software company. Now in a large part that's because VMware stock took a hit recently, but still the point is obvious. Cisco's got a great business. Now for context, we've added AWS, which blows away any company on this chart. We've inferred a market cap of nearly 600 billion, which frankly is conservative at a 10 X revenue multiple given it's inferred margins and growth rate. Now Zeus, if AWS were a separate company, it could have a market cap that approached 800 billion in my view. But what does this data tell you? >> Well, it just tells me that Cisco continues to be a very well-run company that has staved off commoditization, despite the calling for it for years. And I think the big lesson, and I've talked to financial analysts about this over the years, is that if, I don't really believe anything in this world is a commodity, Dave. I think even when Cisco went to the server market, if you remember back then, they created a new way of handling memory management. They were getting well above average margins for service, albeit less than Cisco's network margins, but still above average for server margins. And so I think if you can continue to innovate, you will see the margin stay where they are. You will see customers continue to buy and refresh. And I think one of the challenges Cisco's had in the past, and this is where the subscription business will help, is getting customers to stay with the latest and greatest. Prior to this refresh of network equipment, some of the stuff that I've seen in the fields, 10, 15 years old, once you move to that sell me a box and then tack on the subscription revenue that you pay month by month, you do drive more consistent refresh. Think about the way you just handle your own mobile phone. If you had to go pay, you know, a thousand dollars every three years, you might not do it at that three-year cycle. If you pay 40 bucks a month, every time there's a new phone, you're going to take it, right? So I think Cisco is able to drive greater, better refresh, keep their customers current, keep the features in there. And we've seen that with a lot of the new products. The new Cat 9,000, some of the new service provider products, the new wifi products, they've all done very well. In fact, they've all outpaced their previous generation products as far as growth rate goes. And so I think that is a testament to the way they've run the business. But I do think when people bucket Cisco in with HP and Dell, and I understand why they do, their businesses were similar at one time, it's really not a true comparison anymore. I think Cisco has completely changed their business and they're not trying to commoditize markets, they're trying to drive innovation and keep the margins up, where I think HP and Dell tend to really compete on price versus innovation. >> Well, and we are going to get to this point about the tailwinds and headwinds and cloud, and how Cisco to do it. But, to your point about, you know, the cell phone analogy. To the extent that Cisco can make that seamless for customers could hide that underlying complexity, that's going to be critical for the cloud. Now, but before we get there, I want to talk about one of the reasons why Cisco such a high multiple, and has been able to preserve its margins, to your point, not being commoditized. And it's been able to grow both organically, but also has a strong history of M and A. It's this chart shows a dominant position in core networking. So this shows, so ETR data within the Fortune 500. It plots companies in the ETR taxonomy in two dimensions, net score on the vertical axis, which is a measure of spending velocity, and market share on the horizontal axis, which is a measure of presence in the survey. It's not like IDC market share, it's mentioned market share if you will. The point is Cisco is far and away the most pervasive player in the market, it's generally held its dominant position. Although, it's been under pressure in the last few years in core networking, but it retains or maintains a very respectable net score and consistently performs well for such a large company. Zeus, anything you'd add with respect to Cisco's core networking business? >> Yeah, it's maintained a dominant network position historically. I think part of because it drives good products, but also because the competitive landscape, historically has been pretty weak, right? We saw companies like 3Com and Nortel who aren't around anymore. It'll be interesting to see moving forward now that companies like VMware are involved in networking. AWS is interested in networking. Arista is a much stronger company. You know, Juniper bought Mist and is in better position. Even Extreme Networks who most people thought was dead a few years ago has made a number of acquisitions and is now a billion dollar company. So while Cisco has done a great job of execution, they've done a great job on the innovation side, their competitive landscape, looking out over the next five years, I think is going to be more difficult than it has been over the previous five years. And largely, Dave, I think that's good for Cisco. I think whenever Cisco's pressed a little bit from competition, they tend to step on the innovation gas a little bit more. And I look back and even just the transition when VMware bought Nicira, that got Cisco's SDN business into gear, like nothing else could have, right? So competition for that company, they always seem to respond well to it. >> So, let's break down Cisco's net score a little bit. Explain why the company has been able to hold its spending momentum despite its large size. This will give you a little insight to the survey. So this chart shows the granular components of net score. The lime green is new adoptions to Cisco. The forest green is spending more than 6%. The gray is flat plus or minus 5%. The pink is spending drops by more than 5%. And the red is we're chucking the platform, we're getting off. And Cisco's overall net score here is 25%, which for a company of its size speaks to the relationships that it has with customers. It's of course got a fat middle in the gray area, like all sort of large established companies. But very low defections as well, it's got low new adoptions. But very respectable. So that is background, Zeus. Let's look at spending momentum over time across Cisco's portfolio. So this chart shows Cisco's net score by that methodology within the ETR taxonomy for Cisco over three survey periods. And what jumps out is Meraki on the left, very strong. Virtualization business, its core networking, analytics and security, all showing upward momentum. AppD is a little bit concerning, but that could be related to Cisco's sort of pivot to full stack observability. So maybe AppD is being bundled there. Although some practitioners have cited to us some concerns in that space. And then WebEx at the end of the chart, it's showing some relative strength, but not that high. Zeus, maybe you could comment on Meraki and any other takeaways across the portfolio. >> Yeah, Meraki has proven to be an excellent acquisition for Cisco. In fact, you might, I think it's arguable to say it's its best acquisition in history going all the way back to camp Kalpana and Grand Junction, the ones that brought up catalyst switches. So, in fact, I think Meraki's revenue might be larger than security now. So, that shows you the momentum it has. I think one of the lessons it brought to Cisco was that simpler is better, sometimes. I think when they first bought Meraki, the way Meraki's deployed, it's very easy to set up. There's a lot of engineering work though that goes into making a product simple to use. And I think a lot of Cisco engineers historically looked at Meraki as, that's a little bit of a toy. It's meant for small businesses, things like that, but it's not for enterprise. But, Rocky's done a nice job of expanding the portfolio, of leveraging the cloud for analytics and showing you a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily get from traditional networking equipment. And one of the things that I was really delighted to see was when they put Todd Nightingale in charge of all the networking business, because that showed to me that Chuck Robbins understood that the things Meraki were doing were right and they infuse a little bit of Meraki into the rest of the company. You know, that's certainly a good thing. The other areas that you showed on the chart, not really a surprise, Dave. When you think of the shift hybrid work and you think of the, some of the other transitions going on, I think you would expect to see the server business in decline, the storage business, you know, maybe in a little bit of decline, just because people aren't building out data centers. Where the other ones are related more to hybrid working, hybrid cloud, things like that. So it is what you would expect. The WebEx one was interesting too, because it did show somewhat of a dip and then a rise. And I think that's indicative of what we've seen in the collaboration space since the pandemic came about. Companies like Zoom and RingCentral really got a lot of the headlines. Again, when you, the comment I made on competition, Cisco got caught a little bit flat-footed, they've caught up in features and now they really stepped on the gas there. Chuck joked that he gave the WebEx team a bit of a blank check to go do what it had to do. And I don't think that was a joke. I think he actually did that because they've added more features into WebEx in the last year then I think they did the previous five years before that. >> Well, let's just drill into video conferencing real quick here, if we could. Here's that two dimensional view, again, showing net score against market share or pervasiveness of mentions, and you can see Microsoft Teams in the upper right. I mean, it's off the chart, literally. Zoom's well ahead of Cisco in terms of, you know, mentions presence. And that could be a spate of freemium, you know, but it's basically a three horse race in this game. And Cisco, I don't think is trying to take Zoom head on, rather it seems to be making WebEx a core part of its broader collaboration agenda. But Zeus, maybe you could comment. >> Well, it's all coming together, right? So, it's hard to decouple calling from video from meetings. All of the vendors, including Teams, are going after the hybrid work experience. And if you believe the future is hybrid and not just work from home, then Cisco does have a pretty interesting advantage because it's the only one that makes its own end points, where Teams and Zoom doesn't. And so that end to end experience it can deliver. The Microsoft Teams one's interesting because that product, frankly, when you talk to users, it doesn't have a great user score, like as far as user satisfaction goes, but the one thing Microsoft has done a very good job of is bundling it in to the Office365 licenses, making it very easy for IT to deploy. Zoom is a little bit in the middle where they've appealed to the users. They've done a better job of appealing to IT, but there is a, there is a battleground now going on where video's not just video. It includes calling, includes meetings, includes room systems now, and I think this hybrid work friend is going to change the way we think about these meeting tools. >> Now we'd be remiss if we didn't spend a moment talking about security as a key part of Cisco's business. And we have a graphic on this same kind of X, Y. And it's been, we've seen several quarters of growth. Although, the last quarter security growth was in the low single digits, but Cisco is a major player in security. And this X, Y graph shows, they've got both a large presence and a solid spending momentum. Not nearly as much momentum as Okta or Zscaler or a CrowdStrike and some of the smaller companies, but they're, these guys are on a rocket ship, but others that we featured in these episodes, but much more than respectable for Cisco. And security is critical to the strategy. It's a big part of the subscriber base. And the last thing, Zeus, I'll say about Cisco made the point in analyst day, that this market is crowded. You can see that in this chart. And their goal is to simplify this picture and make it easier for customers to secure their data and apps. But that's not easy, Zeus. What are your thoughts on Cisco's security opportunities? >> Yeah, I've been waiting for Cisco go to break up in security a little more than it has. I do think, I was talking with a CSO the other day, Dave, that said to me he's starting to understand that you don't have to have best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, there's a lot of buyers now will tell you that if you try and have best of breed everywhere, it actually creates a negative when it comes to threat protection because keeping all the policies and things up to date is very, very difficult. And so the industry is moving more to a platform model, right? Now, the challenge for Cisco is how do you get that, the customer to think of the network as part of the platform? Because while the platform model, I think, is starting to gain traction, FloridaNet, Palo Alto, even McAfee, companies like that also have their own version of a security platform. And if you look at the financial performance of companies like FloridaNet and Palo Alto over the past, you know, over the past couple of years, they've been through the roof, right? And so I think an interesting and unique challenge for Cisco is can they convince the security buyer that the network is as important a part of that platform as any other component? If they can do that, I think they can break away from the pack. If not, then they'll stay mixed in with those, you know, Palo, FloridaNet, Checkpoint, and, you know, and Cisco, in that mix. But I do think that may present their single biggest needle moving opportunity just because of how big the security TAM is, and the fact that there is no de facto leader in security today. If they could gain the same kind of position in security as they have a networking, who, I mean, that would move the needle like no other market would. >> Yeah, it's really interesting that they're coming at security, obviously from a position of networking strength. You've got, to your point, you've got best of breed, Okta in identity, you got CrowdStrike in endpoint, Zscaler in cloud security. They're all growing like crazy. And you got Cisco and you know, Palo Alto, CSOs tell us they want to work with Palo Alto because they're the thought leader and they're obviously a major player here. You mentioned FloridaNet, there's a zillion others. We could talk all day about security. But let's bring it back to cloud. We've talked about a number of the piece in Cisco's portfolio, and we haven't really spent any time on full stack observability, which is a big push for Cisco with AppD, Intersight and the ThousandEyes acquisition. And that plays into this equation. But my take, Zeus, is Cisco has a number of cloud knobs that it can turn, it sells core networking equipment to hyperscalers. It can be the abstraction layer to connect on-prem to the cloud and hybrid and across clouds. And it's in a good position with Telcos too, to go after the 5G. But let's use this chart to talk about Cisco's cloud prospects. It's an ETR cut of the cloud customer spending. So we cut it by cloud customers. And they're are, I don't know, 800 or so in the survey. And then looking at various companies performance within that cut. So these are companies that compete, or in the case of HashiCorp, partner with Cisco at some level. Let me just set this up and get your take. So the insert on the chart by the way shows the raw data that positions each dot, the net score and the shared n, i.e. the number of accounts in the survey that responded. The key points, first of all, Azure and AWS, dominant players in cloud. GCP is a distant third. We've reported on that a lot. Not only are these two companies big, they have spending momentum on their platforms. They're growing, they are on that flywheel. Second point, VMware and Cisco are very prominent. They have huge customer bases. And while they're often on a collision course, there's lots of room in cloud for multiple players. When we plotted some other Cisco properties like AppD and Meraki, which as we said, is strong. And then for context, we've placed Dell, HPE, Aruba, IBM and Oracle. And also VMware cloud and AWS, which is notable on its elevation. And as I say, we've added HashiCorp because they're critical partner of Cisco and it's a multi-cloud play. Okay, Zeus, there's the setup. What does Cisco have to do to make the cloud a tailwind? Let's talk about strategy, tailwinds, headwinds, competition, and bottom line it for us. >> Yeah, well, I do think, well, I talked about security being the biggest needle mover for Cisco, I think its biggest challenge is convincing Wall Street in particular, that the cloud is a tailwind. I think if you look at the companies with the really high multiples to their stock, Dave, they're all ones where they're viewed as, they go along with the cloud ride, Right? So the, if you can associate yourself with the cloud and then people believe that the cloud is going to, more cloud equals more business, that obviously creates a better multiple because the cloud has almost infinite potential ahead of it. Now with respect to Cisco, I do think cloud has presented somewhat of a double-edged sword for Cisco. I don't believe the current consumption model for cloud is really a tailwind for Cisco, not really a headwind, but it doesn't really change Cisco's business. But I do think the very definition of cloud is changing before our eyes, Dave. And it's shifting away from centralized clouds. If you think of the way customers bought cloud before, it might have used AWS, it might've used Azure, but it really, that's not really multi-cloud, it's just multiple clouds in which I put things in these centralized resources. It's shifting more to this concept of distributed cloud in which a single application can be built using resources from your private cloud, for AWS, from Azure, from Edge locations, all the cloud providers have built their portfolios to support this concept of distributed cloud and what becomes important there, is a highly agile dynamic network. And in that case with distributed cloud, that is a tailwind for Cisco because now the network is that resource that ties all those distributed cloud components together. Now the network itself has to change. It needs to become a lot more agile and microservices and container friendly itself so I can spin up resources and, you know, in an Edge location, as fast as I can on-prem and things like that. But I do think it creates another wave of innovation and networking, and in that case, I think it does act as a tailwind for Cisco, aside from just the work it's done with the web scalers, you know, those types of companies. So, but I do think that Cisco needs to rethink its delivery model on network services somewhat to take advantage of that. >> At the analyst meeting, Cisco made the point that it does sell to the hyperscalers. It talked about the top six hyperscalers. You know, you had mentioned to me, maybe IBM and Oracle were in there. I always talk about four hyperscalers and only four, but that's fine. Here's my question. Practitioners have told me, buyers have told me, the more money and more workloads I put in the cloud, the less I spend with Cisco. Now, even though that might be Cisco gear powering those clouds, do you see that as a potential threat in that they don't own that relationship anymore and value will confer to the cloud players? >> Yeah, that's, I've heard that too. And I don't, I believe that's true when it comes to general purpose compute. You're probably not buying as many UCS servers and things like that because you are putting them in the cloud. But I do think you do need a refresh the network. I think the network becomes a very important role, plays a very important role there. The variant, the really interesting trend will be, what is your WAM look like? Do you have thousands of workers scattered all over the place, or do you just have a few centralized locations? So I think also, you know, Cisco will wind up providing connectivity within the cloud. If you think of the transition we've seen in other industries, Dave, as far as cloud goes, you think of, you know, F5, a company like that. People thought that AWS would commoditize F5's business because AWS provides their own load balancers, right? But what AWS provides is a very basic, very basic functionality and then use F5's virtual edition or a cloud edition for a lot of the advanced capabilities. And I think you'll see the same thing with the cloud that customers will start buying versions of Cisco that go in the cloud to drive a lot of those advanced capabilities that only Cisco delivers. And so I think you wind up buying more Cisco over time, although the per unit price of what you buy might be a little bit lower. If that makes sense here. >> It does, I think it makes a lot of sense and that fits into the cloud model. You know, you bring up a good point, the conversation with the customer was Rakuten. And that individual was essentially sharing with us, somebody was asking, one of the analysts was asking, "Well, what about the cloud guys? "Aren't they going to really threaten the whole Telco "industry and disrupt it?" And his point was, "Look at, this stuff is not trivial." So to your point, you know, maybe they'll provide some basic functionality. Kind of like they do in a lot of different areas. Data protection is another good example. Security is another good example. Where there's plenty of room for partners, competitors, of on-prem players to add value. And I've always said, "Look, the opportunity "is the cloud players spend 100 billion dollars a year "on CapEx." It's a gift to companies like Cisco who can build an abstraction layer that connects on-prem, cloud for hybrid, across clouds, out to the edge, and really be that layer that is that layer that takes advantage of cloud native, but also delivers that experience, I don't want to use the word seamlessly, but that experience across those clouds as the cloud expands. And that's fundamentally Cisco's cloud strategy, isn't it? >> Oh yeah. And I think people have underestimated over the years, how hard it is to build good networking products. Anybody can go get some silicon and build a product to connect two things together. The question is, can you do it at scale? Can you do it securely? And lots of companies have tried to commoditize networking, you know, White Boxes was looked at as the existential threat to Cisco. Huawei was looked at as the big threat to Cisco. And all of those have kind of come and gone because building high quality network equipment that scales is tough. And it's tougher than most people realize. And your other point on the cloud providers as well, they will provide a basic level of functionality. You know, AWS network equipment doesn't work in Azure. And Azure stuff doesn't work in Google, and Google doesn't work in AWS. And so you do need a third party to come in and act as almost the cloud middleware that can connect all those things together with a consistent set of policies. And that's what Cisco does really well. They did that, you know back when they were founded with routing protocols and you can think this is just an extension of what they're doing just up at the cloud layer. >> Excellent. Okay, Zeus, we're going to leave it there. Thanks to my guest today, Zeus Kerravala. Great analysis as always. Would love to have you back. Check out ZKresearch.com to reach him. Thank you again. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Now, remember I publish each week on Wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Braking Analysis" podcast, and you can connect on Twitter at DVallante or email me David.Vallante@siliconangle.com. Thanks for the comments on LinkedIn. Check out etr.plus for all the survey action. This is Dave Vallante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Be well and we'll see you next time. (light music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I am Lisa Martin. Jim Richberg joins me next, public sector CISO at Fortinet. Welcome to the program. Great to see you. >> Okay, good to be with you, Lisa. >> Lots of stuff has happened in the last year. I mean that's an epic understatement, right? But one of the things that... We saw this massive shift to work from home, and now we're... I hope I can say coming out of the pandemic, and we're starting to see this hybrid model of kind of work from anywhere. We also saw the massive spike in ransomware last year. Ransomware now being suddenly a household term. There's so much money in it. From a hybrid approach, what are some of the things that you're seeing? >> So, when we talk about hybrid, what we go back to is not going to be the office that we left. Some of us aren't going back at all. Some of us are going back in. We're not going to have assigned desks. Some of the offices are going to be in different places, and the nature of the work that we've been doing has changed. So it definitely means the new normal isn't going to look like the old normal did before March of 2021. So I tell organizations that they really need to think about what that means in terms of how they structure work, how they structured their networks. Because as you said, Lisa, it's going to be work from anywhere. Some of us are going to go back out on the road. We'll be the road warriors again. So you're not going back to a classic network, in an office with CAT5 Cat 5 cables, connecting everybody's desktop. And some of us are even going to get hired who never ever go to the office. So this is a situation where we really have to think through what this means in terms of how we work, the culture we have as a workplace, and unfortunately, it's not just the enterprise and the workforce that have been innovating. The threat actors have gone hybrid. There was a little pause while they started working from home, figuring out what to do, but the reality is they took us to lunch when they figured out exactly what these vulnerabilities in the small office, home office environment were, and how to exploit them. Lisa, you talked about ransomware rising 700% in the latter half of last year. And this is actually indicative of what I think is the biggest problem we have in cyber security. It's not technology. If you're willing to do a rip and replace and put in state of the art technology, there's some really good solutions. Some of that technology, when it starts incorporating artificial intelligence and automation, actually goes a long way to compensate for the workforce and skills gap we all hear about, 3 million people short. That's a true number. But Lisa, the biggest problem in cyber security from my perspective, and I've been doing this for 35 years, is metrics. We can't measure what's going on and say, "If I do this, this is how it affects the network security and this is how it affects the adversary's behavior." And that's exactly what we saw in this pivot to remote telework. It took networking and security working hand in hand to make that pivot. Because I've seen those two as the centerpiece of their organization. In March of last year, when we all went into lockdown, we would've gone and do shutdown if we haven't had the ability to forward deploy that IT to the home environment. And we can measure our success on the IT side. Did we have enough bandwidth? Did we give them the right platforms? Did the latency mean things froze up or not? We couldn't measure cybersecurity as well. We said, "Okay, due diligence says we'll give you a two-factor authentication, and we're going to do a secure connection back to the office. But then they said we were basically treating it as if you were logged on from your cube or your office, and the reality is you weren't. You were logged in from an environment that your organization had very little, if any, visibility or control into what was going on there, and that's how we got exploited. And because we couldn't measure that, it was only in hindsight that we could see exactly how insecure that was for many organizations. We cut corners. We had to do this to get up and running. That's not a good jumping off point for your status quo going into this hybrid environment in the future. >> So it sounds like you said the ransomware... When I spoke with with Derek Manky, I think about last month or so, ransomware were up 700%. I can only imagine what's happening this year, but one of the things I want to get your perspective on, Jim, is, what's top of mind for both public sector and private sector folks? As you're saying from a measurement perspective, There's a challenge there. There's this hybrid model that's amorphous we'll say. What are some of the things that are top of mind for them, and then how are you helping advise them? Because, as you say, the threat actors got to work pretty quick, so there's a race here. >> Well, top of mind for both of course is ransomware. And the ironic thing is ransomware is not a new phenomenon. It's been with us for a long time. It used to affect retail, one computer at a time, and it was 50 or 100 bucks to decrypt your personal computer. What has changed is the rise of cryptocurrency. It's so easy to monetize the ability to cash out with the victim now. There was a time five to 10 years ago where there were basically three places that were essentially the clearinghouses for this kind of stuff. So government could target those through law enforcement, and that meant that you really had the equivalent of the pawnbroker you needed to watch out for who was the fence that people were going to. Now, come on, cryptocurrency is essentially a fiat currency in some countries. So it's going everywhere. The fact that we have commoditized the ability to do it, you're familiar with ransomware as a service. You don't have to be a coder now. You rent the stuff. Sometimes you pay as much as 80% of the profit to the person you're renting it from. You're basically the mule doing the grunt work, but we've made it so that you don't need to know anything about computer science to carry this kind of crime off. And frankly, we've got some safe haven, some geopolitical safe heavens. It's much like spam was 10 years ago where there were a few countries where probably more traffic coming out as email was spammed in legitimate traffic. And we've got some big nation stages that are basically complicit in allowing this to occur, so safe haven. So this is why ransomware has become such a problem for everybody, and then of course you've got supply chain. You look at solar winds, you look at Microsoft Exchange, Office 365 vulnerability. This again is a problem that's been with us for a long time. It's one that tends to be focused primarily on government customers, because this is something where, yeah, you can do it as a criminal activity, but this really tends to be a game that nation states play against nation state terms. But something like SolarWinds was such an epiphany, was so serious that a lot of organizations said, "Oh my goodness, this attacked the root of trust. This fundamentally got into the system from the inside out." It scared people. And the reality is something like that infected far more people than were actively exploited. I've talked to some people in both the public sector at the state level, and in private sector who say, "Yes, my organization was compromised by this, but we weren't affected." So from my perspective, we were collateral damage. We were caught in the crossfire of a war between nation states. Do we want to spend our scarce cyber security resources trying to mitigate that kind of sophisticated threat? No, not when we know we've got ransomware, when we've got these vulnerabilities in the work from anywhere environment. That's where I want to put my next dollars. So it's been a health conversation with some of them as to what's most concerning to them and what they want to prioritize in mitigation. >> So if we look at some of the executive orders, Jim, that have come down, ransomware I said became a household word. I'm pretty sure my mom even knows the term ransomware, the Colonial Pipeline, the meat packing, where we're starting to see, wow, this is not just, as you said earlier in the beginning, isolated incidents or attacks. This is now affecting infrastructure, potentially public health and safety. Talk to me about some of the executive orders. What do you think they're going to do and where should agencies start? This race is going on. Like you said, they've got to be able to prioritize how they defend themselves. >> So two things to keep in mind when you look at an executive order. An executive order is the chief executive telling the executive branch what to do. If you look at the last executive order that President Biden signed on the 12th of May, people became seized with the fact that, "Oh my goodness, it tells the private sector it has to give threat information, it has to give breach information to the federal government, it has to change what it does in supply chain." You go no. It says when the federal government is your customer, when you're selling them a service, you have to do this. But otherwise, you don't do, by an executive order, something... It doesn't have the force of law. It just is the way you tell the executive branch to behave. So use that executive order as a case on point. Very large, very complex executive order that touched a lot of these things, ransomware, supply chain issues. The problem is you put a whole lot of good ideas in one executive order. You put a whole lot of aggressive time frame. Some things had to be done in 30, 45 days, 60 days, which is two weeks from now. It's crazy because one thing an executive order doesn't do is give you more money. The only way a government agency can spend money on this is if it aligned with the program it already had, or it has contingency funds, reserved funds to do it. So the problem is you take an executive order, you cram it full of good ideas, and you have too many good ideas. So the reality is this executive order tells the government to do a lot of things at once, and it has to by law, well, by the president's direction, focus on all this at once. But if I could pick and choose these, I would say start with the section that said focus on modernizing the cybersecurity of the federal government. There's goodness to come out of that. It has zero trust architecture. Federal government did a great idea of articulating what that was, even years before we called it zero trust. Federal government was segmenting its networks. It had need-to-know access. It was doing things. I come from the national security community. That was just the way we worked. We didn't call it anything fancy like zero trust. We didn't trust anybody. That's the way it worked in the spy business. But zero trust architecture, accelerating migration to the cloud, putting in multi-factor authentication and encryption of data at rest and in transit, deploying endpoint detection and response. Those are things in the executive order that if agencies could focus on those and make progress on implementing those, thumbs up, you have appreciably increased security without even touching the harder things that unfortunately are going to distract people like supply chain, and definitions of what critical software is and the cyber safety board. All good things, but the problem is if you try to do everything at once, the reality is you end up making progress on, appreciable progress on nothing. >> Right, which obviously we don't have the time for that. I'm curious getting your point, because one of the challenges with respect, well, threat vectors with respect to cybersecurity is people. With this shift to home, we had people using corporate devices on home networks and random devices, and now we've got this, as we talked about earlier, this hybrid approach coming back. But how much can zero trust help agencies really educate or really help defend form the human error that is often the cause of getting ransomware through email or an attachment. >> So, Lisa, that is exactly... We're handicapped by the name because zero trust sounds like I don't trust you, you're not trustworthy, rather than trust should be based on the transaction. Like if you need to read data to a file, why am I giving the ability to write to the file or, even worse, delete the file? Just give you what you need to get the job done. And this is tech that is your safety net. It's not Big Brother. When you do real-time monitoring as part of dynamic zero trust, it looks at it and says, "Well, Lisa is doing something she doesn't normally do with this application. Did she make a mistake? Did she say reply all on this, which was sending inside data to outside people on the email list? Do I at least want to ask her? Hey, Lisa, did you mean to do that?" So if you can educate people to say this is the organization looking out for you, it's looking over your shoulder as a friend. It's not here to be checking up on you. Language matters, and it's like we call things insider threat, recognizing that far more damage in an organization happens from people making mistakes. It's insider risk that we need to manage. An organization of any appreciable size has bad apples. That's just a law of nature. But when we call it.... I'm dealing with the insider threat. I've been in government. I've been shot at in some of my dicey situations. I want to avoid being attacked. I want to avoid threats. If I'm an organization, I don't want to avoid my insiders. That's my workforce. That's my biggest asset. They bring risk by their behavior. I need to manage that, but that's constructive. Don't make an adversarial by typecasting them all as threats. They're humans. They make mistakes. You can help them avoid some of those mistakes through technology, and zero trust gets into that. >> Got it. And then last question for you. Here we are, July 1st, crazy. Half a year has gone already. What are some of the things that you're expecting that are going to happen the rest of the year? What can organizations... You talked about some of the things they can implement now. Some of the things seems to be sort of like back to basics. But anything that you see on the horizon in the next six to nine months that organizations really need to be focused on? >> So as they put together their posture for operating in the new normal, I said security and IT were successful in getting us where we got in the pivot to remote telework because they worked hand in hand. So find things like that that you can use to demonstrate to your organization that you really are in the middle of the mix. So as we make this pivot to software defined networking. Because again, if we're going back to offices that are different, places with different kinds of infrastructure, we don't want to pull cable. We don't want to do that. Software-defined networking is a good way to do it, and there are different ways to do software-defined networking, some of which are inherently secure. So pick that one. In software-defined networking, the users love the fact that it gives them better latency, better performance on the apps they care about. The front office likes the fact that they get flexibility for continuity of operations, and they save money. This is the example of something that you can pick that allows you to say, "I'm giving you great performance and great security." Cloud is the same way. People understand I think at this point how to operate in a cloud, the challenge comes in saying, "I'm operating in multiple clouds." I need to say I don't really care. I don't really care where the data go or the compute resource is. I just need to connect the user, the device, data, and resources, regardless of location. And that's where this big approach to say, you know, it's about convergence. It's about convergence of IT and security, and really it's about convergence of computing to say, "I don't care if it's edge computing, or cloud computing, or work from home." It's all just computing, and we've got to connect, and we've got to enable that to be secure. That's the priority that if you take that mindset, thinking about the problem going forward, I think will allow CIOs and CISOs to say, "Look, we're making a difference for the organization, performance, cost, and security." >> Performance, cost, and security. It also sounds like a bit of a cultural change there, which is always challenging, but certainly that convergence as you mentioned, we've seen it be successful, and it's something that sounds now more important than ever. Jim, thank you so much for joining me on the program today, sharing all of your insights, some of the things that you're seeing in what organizations can do to protect themselves from this big threat of ransomware that probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon. >> I wouldn't expect it to, but it's been a pleasure talking to you, Lisa, and we'll have to look back and see how accurate we were with this crystal ball. >> Good, yeah. Jim, great to have you on the program. For Jim Richberg, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this Cube Conversation. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio, and we always love when we get to talk to practitioners, and not just any practitioner. CIOs, obviously under huge pressures in general, but in today's day and age, lots of pressures on the CIO. So, I'm happy to welcome to the program Rich Gagnon. He is the CIO from the city of Amarillo in Texas. Rich, thank you so much for joining us. >> Glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. >> All right, so, you know, CIO in a city in Texas, why don't you give us a little bit of what your role entails, a little bit of your background, and looking forward to the conversation. >> So, my background is actually more from the private sector side of the house. Previous to coming to the city of Amarillo, I was the Vice President of Systems Engineering for Palo Alto Networks, for the Americas. Before that, the Global Vice President of Systems Engineering for F5 Networks, and before that, the Director of Global Infrastructure for GameStop. So I stepped into government with a very private-sector, profit-centered mindset, if you will, coming from very high-growth companies. My role with the city is really to be an enabler for local government, to drive not only IT direction, but as a smaller community, I also have to wear the CSO hat, and the Data Privacy Officer hat. Pretty much anything when it comes to leadership of IT and technology, as an enabler to the government, that role falls on me. >> Wow, so a pretty broad mandate that you have there. Rich, give us a little bit, how does that span? How many constituents do you have in your infrastructure, your IT? Maybe you can sketch that out a little bit for us, too. >> Sure, so, I've had peers from the private sector ask me, "What's it like to actually lead in local government?" And the best comparison I can come up with is someone like GE. I have 49 different subsidiaries, different departments that operate as individual business units, only I don't have GE's money or their staff. We have 200,000 people and the departments we support span everything, from the obvious, like public safety, police, fire. We have an airport, a public clinic, water treatment plants, public health. There are streets, all the infrastructure departments. It's very diverse. >> Wow. And with all of those constituents that you have, why don't you give us the pre-COVID-19 discussion first, which is, what are some of those pressures there, from a budgeting standpoint? Are there specific initiatives you've been driving? And how are you responding to all those variables? >> Sure. Well, coming in, it was a little jarring. City leadership was very transparent that the city had sort of stood still for about a decade. I come from a high-growth environment where money was not the precious resource, really. It was always time. It was about speed to market. How do we get competitive advantage and move fast enough to maintain it? That was not the case here. I stepped into an environment where the limitations were Cat 3 cable and switches that still ran CatOS. The year before I came in, the big IT accomplishment was finally completing the migration to Windows 7 and Office 2007. That's where we started. So, for the past three years, I guess I'm starting my fourth year, we have undergone massive transformation. I think my staff thinks I'm a bit of a maniac, because we've run like we were being chased by a rabid dog. We have updated, obviously, the Layer 1 infrastructure, replaced the entire network. We've rolled out a new data center that's all hyper-converged. That enabled us to move our security model from the traditional Layer 3 firewall at the edge to a contextually-based data center with regulation on east-west traffic and segregation. We have rolled out VDI and Office 2016 and Windows 10. It's been a lot. >> Yeah, it really sounds like you went through multiple generations of change there. It's almost like going a decade forward, not just one step forward. Bring us through a little bit, that transformation. Obviously, there should be some clear efficiencies you had, but give us kind of the before and after as you started to deploy some of these technologies. Was there some reskilling? Did you hire some new people? How did that all go? >> Very much so. And like everything, it starts with financials, right? All of the resources at the city within IT were focused on operations, so there was literally no capital budget. As where typically you would update as you go, and update infrastructure, what happened was, as the infrastructure aged, the approach was to hire more staff to try to keep aging infrastructure up and running. That's a failing strategy. So, by moving to HCI, we've actually recovered about 26% of our operating budget, which allowed us to move that money into innovation and infrastructure updating. It took a tremendous amount of reskilling. Fortunately, the one thing that's been, I think, most surprising to me coming to local government, is the creativity of the staff. They were hungry for change. They were excited by the opportunity to move things forward. So, we spent an entire year doing nothing but training. We had a massive amount of budget poured into, "Let's bring the staff up to speed. "Let's get as many vendors in front of them as possible. "Let's get them educated on where the trends are going. "What is hyper-converged architecture "and why does it matter? "What is DevOps and why is the industry heading that way?" So as I said, we started, really, Layer 2-3, established that, built out the new data center, and now our focus is now, we built that platform, and our focus is starting to shift onto business relationship management. We've met with all 49 departments. We do that every six months. We're building 49 different roadmaps for every department, on "What applications are you using? "How do we help you modernize? "How do we help you serve the citizens better?" Because that's how IT serves the community. We serve the community by serving the departments that serve them directly, and being an innovation engine, if you will, for local government, to drive through new applications and ways to serve. So the transition has really started to happen is we've gotten that base platform out of the way and the things that were blocking us from saying, "Yes, and we can do more." >> Wow, so Rich, it's been an interesting discussion as the global pandemic has hit, so many people have talked about, "Boy, when I think about working from home "or managing in this environment, if I was using "10- or 15-year-old technology, "I don't know how, "or if I'd be able to do any of what I had." So, I know Dell brought you over, you're talking HCIs, so I believe you're talking about VxRail as your HCI platform. Talk to us about what HCI enabled as you needed to shift to remote workforce and support, that overall urgent need. >> It's been massive. And it's been interesting to see the IT team absorb it. As we matured, I think they embraced the ability to be innovative and to work with our departments, but this instance really justified why I was driving progress so fervently, why it was so urgent to me. Three years ago, the answer would have been no. We wouldn't have been in a place where we could adapt. With VxRail in place, in a week, we spun up hundreds of instant clones. We spun up a 75-person call center in a day and a half for our public health. We rolled out multiple applications for public health so they could do remote clinics. It's given us the flexibility to be able to roll out new solutions very quickly and be very adaptive. And it's not only been apparent to my team, but it's really made an impact on the business, and now what I'm seeing is those of my customers that were a little lagging or a little conservative are understanding the impact of modernizing the way they do business because it makes them adaptable as well. >> All right, so, Rich, you talked a bunch about the efficiencies that HCI put in place. How about that overall management? You talked about how fast you spun up these new VDI instances. You need to be able to do things much simpler. How does the overall lifecycle management fit into this discussion? >> It makes it so much easier. In the old environment, one, it took a lot of man hours to make change. It was very disruptive when we did make change. It overburdened, I guess that's the word I'm looking for. It really overburdened our staff to cause disruption to business. It wasn't cost-efficient. And then, simple things, like, I've worked for multi-billion dollar companies where we had massive QA environments that replicated production. You simply can't afford that at local government. Having this sort of environment lets me do a scaled-down QA environment, and still get the benefit of rolling out non-disruptive change. As I said earlier, it's allowed us to take all of those cycles that we were spending on lifecycle management, because it's greatly simplified, and move those resources and reskill them in other areas where we can actually have more impact on the business. It's hard to be innovative when 100% of your cycles are just keeping the ship afloat. >> Well, it's definitely a great proof point. So often, you deploy a solution, and when push comes to shove, will it deliver on that value that we're hoping for? HCI has been around for quite a while, but a crisis like this, how can you move past, how can your team respond? Congratulations to your team on that. The Dell team has recently done a number of updates on the VxRail platform. I'm curious, as someone who's been using the platform, what particularly is interesting to you, and what pieces of that have the most relevance to your organization? >> There are a few. So we're starting to look at our SCADA environments, industrial controls. And we're looking at some processing at the edge in those environments. So the new organized D series are interesting. There's some plant environments where that might really make sense to us. We've also partnered with our local counties and we have a DR site where being able to extend the network out to that DR site is going to be very powerful for us. And then there's just some improvements in vSphere that will allow us to do a little QA-ing, if you will, on new code before we roll it out, that I think will have a pretty huge impact for us as well. >> Excellent. So, Rich, when you think about the services that you need to deliver to all of your constituencies, walk us through how the pandemic has affected the team, how you're making sure that your employees are taken care of, but that you can still deliver all of those services. >> So from an internal perspective, not running a legacy architecture has made that a whole lot easier. We've remoted most of the IT team. Our entire development team is at home. Most of our support team is at home. Most of the city is still at home. So being able to do that, one, just having the capability has been huge for us. But also, from a business perspective, it's allowed most of our city functions just to keep running. So, modified services, for sure, but we're still functioning, and I just don't think that would have been capable, we wouldn't have been capable of supporting that, even two and a half years ago. >> So, Rich, we've talked a bit about your infrastructure. I'm curious, is the city, are you leveraging any public cloud environments, or any specific SaaS solutions that are enabling some of what you're doing today also? >> Yes, and we could probably have a 30-minute discussion on what is hybrid cloud and what is multicloud. In our instance, we are leveraging quite a bit of SaaS. We've migrated a lot of our services to SaaS offerings. We have spun up several applications in the cloud. I wouldn't call them truly hybrid. In my mind, hybrid is, I am able to take the workload and very seamlessly move it between my private infrastructure and one or more clouds. This is more, workloads specifically assigned to a public cloud. But yes, we've leveraged that. Simple things like Office365 and Outlook, but just as powerful for us has been VDI and being able to offer Horizon to our employees at home. And, with my other hat on, still maintain the contextual-based security, right? So I didn't have to open up the kingdom. I can still maintain the control that I need to to be able to sleep at night. >> Yeah, it's interesting. One of the questions I love to ask someone in your position is the role of data, how you think of security, how you think of the technology and put those together. Does it help that you wear both the CSO hat and the CIO hat? How do you think about leveraging data? Is there anything that you're sharing with other municipalities, without giving up, of course, personal information? >> Sure. It causes a lot of internal arguments, right? Because there's the two halves of my brain: the CIO half that wants to roll out as much service as I can and be innovative, and the CSO half of my brain that thinks about the exposure of the service that I'm about to roll out. That's part of where we're migrating now as we start to look into our whole approach to data. We've got the platform in place. We're now really migrating our thinking into revamping the way we look at data. I have seven sources for the same data. How do I consolidate and have one source of truth, and where does that reside? My development team is really starting to migrate out of classic development and more into the automation side of the house. How are we interfacing with all of our vendors? That's in review now. And how are we tying to third-party apps? Yeah, that's really the point we're at in our maturity that, now that the infrastructure is in place, we're now migrating to, "what is our data plan?" >> Excellent. Final question I have for you, Rich. I'd love your thoughts on the changing role of CIO. I loved the discussion you had at the beginning going from, really, the private sector to the public sector. Obviously, unique pressures on all businesses right now dealing with the global pandemic, but how do you see the role of the CIO today and how has it been changing? >> I think there's an expectation that you bring value to the business, whether that's local government, or retail, or banking. I think the expectation is that you're not just managing an infrastructure or managing a team, and providing service, but how do you bring actual value to the organization that you serve? And that means that you have to understand the business and all aspects of the business. I think you have to, at least I do as a CIO, I have to spend a tremendous amount of time understanding my internal customer and what are they trying to accomplish, and often, to show them a new way that they just may not be aware of. So I think there's a little more expectation as a CIO that you're going to drive value to whatever business that you're serving. >> Well, Rich, thank you so much. Really enjoyed the conversation. Congratulations on being able to react fast. So glad that you were able to get the transformation project done ahead of this hitting, because otherwise, it would have been a very different conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, I'm Stu Miniman. Stay safe and thank you for watching theCUBE.

>>from Santa Clara, California. In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Next panel is the aviatrix certified engineers, also known as Aces. This is the folks that are certified their engineering. They're building these new solutions. Please welcome Toby Foster Informatica Stacy Linear from terror data. And Jennifer read with Victor Davis to the stage. >>So we're gonna show you a jacket. Yeah, I get it. >>I was just gonna I was just gonna really rib you guys. See? Where's your jackets? And Jen's got the jacket on. Okay. >>Good. Love. The aviators. Aces, Pilot gear. They're above the clouds. Storage to new heights. So guys, aviatrix pace is love the name. I think it's great. Certified. This is all about getting things engineered. So that level of certification I want to get into that. But first take us through the day in the life on a SAS. And just to point out, Stacy's a squad leader. So he's He's like Squadron leader, quadrant leader, quadrant leader. So it's got a bunch of pieces underneath him, but share your perspective day in the life. We'll start with you. >>Sure, So I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America, both in the U. S. And in Mexico. And so I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well, so I can become a squad leader myself. But it's important because one of the critical gaps that we found is people having the networking background. Because there you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background. You can program. We've got python, but now working and packets they just don't get. And so just taking them through all of the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical. And, um, because you're going to get an issue where you need to figure out where, exactly is that happening on the network, you know, is by my issue just in a vpc is on the instant side is a security group or is it going on prim? And is this something actually embedded within Amazon itself? I mean, I trouble shot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon, and it was the VW VPN because they were auto scaling on two sides, and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say OK, it's fixed and actually actually help the application teams get to that and get it solved. But I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network The way I see the network, I mean, look, I've been doing this for 25 years, but I got out when I went in the Marine Corps. That's what I did and coming out The network is still the network, but people don't get the same training they get. They got >>just so he just write some software that takes care of itself, but we'll come back to that. I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon, but I think the only thing I have to >>add to that is that it's always the network as long as I've been in. Networking has always been the network's fault. If you're in the I'm even to this day, you know, still, networks fault, and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when It's not your fault. And that means you need to know a little bit about 100 different things. Make that >>And now you got a full stack. Dev Ops, you know, a lot more time. Another 100 times are changing your squadron leader. I get that right. What is? What is the squadron leader first? Could you describe what it is? I think probably just leading off with network components of it. But they from my perspective when you think about what you asked them was it's about no issues and the escalations off my days like that. That's a good outcome. That's a good day. Is a good day's a good day for you. Mention the Amazon. This brings up a good point when you have these new waves come in. You have a lot of new things. New use cases, a lot of the finger point against that guy's problem that girls problems. So what? How do you solve that? And how do you get the young guns up to speed? Is there training is that this with a certification comes in, >>whatever the certification is really going to come in I know when we, uh, we got together at reinvent one of the questions that that we had with with Steven the team was What? What should our certification look like? You know, she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear. But what should that be like? And I think Toby and I was like, No, no, no, no, that's going a little too high. We need to get really low because the better someone can get actually understanding what's actually happening in the network and where to actually troubleshoot the problem, how to step back each of those processes. Because without that, it's just a big black box and they don't know, you know, because everything is abstracted in Amazon and a Net and Azure and Google, it's abstracted in there. These virtual gateways they have VPN is that you just don't have the logs on is you just don't know. And so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are full logs? Well, as long as they turned on the flow logs when I built it, you know, and there's like each one of those little things that well, if they had decided to do that when they built it, it's there. But if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through the teaching them how to read act. Even >>so, we were talking before we came on up on stage about your career. You've been networking all your time, and then, you know, you're no mentoring a lot of younger people. How is that going? Because the people who come in fresh, they don't have all the old war stories they don't talk about, You know, it's never fall. I walk in bare feet in the snow when I was your age, so easy now, right? They say, What's your take on how you train the young piece? >>So I've noticed two things. One is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking. They can tell you what network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that until midway through my career, and they're learning it faster, but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here, you know, everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a submit, and they don't understand why you can break it down. Smaller. What? It's really necessary. So the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in, but they don't understand why. And they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from. And why is it important? And that's old guys. That's where we thrive. >>Jennifer, you mentioned you got in from the Marines helps. But when you got into networking, how what was it like that? And compare it now? Almost like we heard earlier. Static versus Dynamic. Don't be static. And then you just set the network. You got a perimeter? >>Yeah. No, there was no such thing. Yeah, no. So, back in the day, I mean, yeah, I mean, we had banyan vines for email, you know, we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work. Because how many of things were actually sharing it, But then actually, just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over, you know, shelters to plug them in, and Oh, crap. They swung it too hard and shattered. And I got a great polish this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works. I mean, that was the network crypt. Five cat, five cables to run an Ethernet, you know? And then from that to set network switches. Dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then, actually configuring routers and, you know, logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that. And it was funny because I had gone all the way up. It was a software product manager for a while, So I've gone all the way up the stack. And then, ah, two and 1/2 3 years ago, I came across, too, to work with NTT Group that became Victor Davis. But we went to help one of our customers, Avis, and it was like, Okay, so we need to fix the network. Okay, I haven't done this in 20 years, but all right, let's get to it, you know, because it really fundamentally does not change. It's still the network. I mean, I've had people tell me Well, you know, when we go to containers, we will not have to worry about the network. And I'm like, Yeah, you don't I >>dio. And then with this with program ability is really interesting. So I think this brings up the certification. What are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix? A certification? What are some of the highlights? Can you guys share some of the highlights around certifications? >>I think some of the importance is that its it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge. And instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something, we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solve it in a general. That's true in Multi Cloud as well. You can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS and Measure and GC P r. All slightly the same, but slightly different and some things work and some things don't. I think that's probably the number one take. >>I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global outside of the business issues. What does it mean to do? That code is that networking is the configurations that aviatrix what is the state matrix is a certification, but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor? But the >>easy answer is yes, >>yes, it's >>all got to be a general. Let's get your hands and you have to be >>right. And it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification. Um, whether that stops and, um, advanced networking and events, security or whatever it might be. Yeah, they can take the test, but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system in the same thing with any certification. But it's really getting your hands in there. And actually having to troubleshoot the problems, you know, actually work the problem, you know, and calm down. It's going to be OK because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on. It's like, Okay, so everyone calm down. Let's figure out what's happening. It's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again. It's not going to solve that problem, right, But at the same time, remaining calm. But knowing that it really is, I'm getting a packet from here to go over here. It's not working. So what could be the problem, you know, and actually stepping them through those scenarios. But that's like, you only get that by having to do it, you know, and and seeing it and going through it. And >>I have a question. So, you know, I just see it. We started this program maybe six months ago. We're seeing a huge amount of interest. I mean, where oversubscribed on all the training sessions, we've got people flying from around the country, even with Corona virus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were over >>subscribed. Good is that originally they would put their Yeah. Is >>that something that you see in your organizations? Are you recommending that two people do you see? I mean, I'm just I guess I'm surprised. I'm not surprised, but I'm really surprised by the demand, if you would of this multi cloud network certification. Is there really isn't anything like that? Is that something you guys could comment on? That do you see the same things in your organization I see from >>my side Because we operate in a multi cloud environments that really helps. It's beneficial. Yeah, >>I think I would add that, um, networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know. It's not good enough to say. Yeah, I know. I p addresses are I know how the network works and a couple little check marks. Our little letters by your helps give you validity. So even in our team, we can say, Hey, you know, we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary, >>right? So I guess my final question for you guys is why and a certification is relevant. And then second part is share with Livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be aviator certified engineers. Why is it important? So why is it relevant? And why should someone want to be a certified engineer? >>I think my V is a little different. I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get. I mean, they're backwards. So when you've got the training and the understanding in the you use that to prove and you can, like, grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of >>that. So that who is the right person that look at this and saying I'm qualified is a network engineer. Is that a Dev ops person? What your view? Is it a certain >>you know, I think Cloud is really the answer. It's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded. So is the network definition getting eroded? We're getting more and more of some network. Some develop some security lots and lots of security. Because network is so involved in so many of them, that's just the next progression. >>You want to add something there, I would say expand that to more automation engineers because we have those now, so I'm probably extended >>Well, I think the training classes themselves are helpful, especially the entry level ones for people who maybe quote unquote cloud architects. But I've never done anything in networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work, Whether or not they go through it. Eventually get a certification is something different. But I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work. It makes them a better architect. Make some better application developer, but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud. Really getting an understanding even from our people have tradition down on Prem networking. They can understand how that's gonna work in the cloud. >>I know we've got just under 30 seconds left. I want to get one more question than just one more for the folks watching that are maybe younger than I don't have. The networking training from your experience is, each of you can answer. Why should they know about networking? What's the benefit? What's in it for them? Motivate them, share some insights and why they should go with the deeper and networking space we'll start with. You know, I would say it's probably fundamental right after delivery solutions networking. Use the very top. I >>would say. If you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine, how those machines talk together, um, is a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up. >>Well, I think it's a challenge because you've come from top down. Now you're going to start looking from bottom up, and you want those different systems to cross, communicate and say you built something and your overlapping eyepiece space. Not that that doesn't happen. But how can I actually make that still operate without having to re? I re platform? It's like those challenges, like those younger developers or Cisco engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their careers. >>And, you know, the pipes are working plumbing. >>That's right. >>And they know how it works. How to code it. >>That's right. >>Awesome. Thank you, guys for great insights. Ace certified engineers, also known as aces, give a round of applause. >>Yeah, Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Okay, alright, that >>concludes my portion. Thank you, Steve. Thanks for having >>on. Thank you very much. That was fantastic. Everybody >>running with John Furrier. Yeah. So Great event. Great event. I'm >>not gonna take along with that. We got lunch outside for the people here. Just a couple of things. I just called action, right? So we saw the aces. You know, for those of you out of the stream here, become a certified. It's great for your career. Is great for not knowledge is is fantastic. It's not just an aviatrix thing. It's going to teach you about cloud networking, multi cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix, exactly what the Cisco CC IE program was for I p Network. That type of the thing that's number one second thing is, is is learn, right? So there's a There's a link up there for the for to join the community, get like I started this. This is a community. This is the kickoff to this community, and it's a movement. So go to what may be community dot IBM dot com. Starting a community of multi cloud. So you get trained learn. I'd say the next thing is we're doing over 100 seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe. Soon we will come out and we'll actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things. For those of you on the you know, on the live stream in here as well. You know, we're coming to a city near you. Go to one of those events. It's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well is to start to learn and get on that multi cloud journey. And then I'd say the last thing is, you know, we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here, and that's intentional. We want you, you know, leaving with wanting to gnome or and schedule get with us and schedule a multi our architecture workshop sessions. So we we sit down with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and, more importantly, where they're going and define that end state architecture from networking, compute storage, everything and everything you've heard. Today. Every panel kept talking about architecture, talking about operations. Those are the types of things that we saw. We help. You could define that canonical architecture that system architecture, that's yours. So for so many of our customers, they have three by five plotted lucid charts, architecture, drawings, and it's the customer name slash aviatrix our network architecture, and they put it on the whiteboard that's what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us. So this becomes there 20 year network architecture, drawing that. They don't do anything without talking us. And look at that architecture. That's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers. And that's super super powerful. So if you're interested, definitely call us. And let's schedule that with our team. So anyway, I just want to thank everybody on the livestream. Thank everybody here. Hopefully it was It was very useful. I think it waas and join the movement. And for those of you here, join us for lunch and thank you very much. >>Yeah, >>yeah, yeah.

ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 all right so we've got a fantastic event today really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event it's not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a take-off of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any powerpoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got Simone Rashard Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the u.s. it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Frank kibrit you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission critical they care about visibility they care about control they care about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers do they see the same thing we're gonna validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is is architecture again with the IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're gonna talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day 2 operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life that's who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do I operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix as leaders knew we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CC IES where Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of Tube John Fourier okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix where we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel two customer panels before that Gartner is going to come on talk about the industry we have a global system integrators we talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask someone rashard to come on stage from Gartner we'll check it all up [Applause] [Music] okay so kicking things off certain started gartner the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer in the 90 to a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering at the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really I was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow whitey or application people or some kind of DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right with a different account and they create mesh to manage them and their direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like Enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides the data that are sent removing that to that cloud and I ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the adduct way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the two they don't think about operations they have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift wake they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these ways are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct then that's I would I call the up optimal phase but even that they they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS has accounts there's subscription and in adarand GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate used the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that I still wanna manage the cloud from an API to interview I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they really building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway I'm just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi cloud a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in deserve one app in individuals one get happened Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never going to happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the workload in the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking team be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while I run Network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple I agree IPSec VP and I reckon Express that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which we cloud provider right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean this is the day-to-day operations after it you know the natural let's add an app let's add a server let's troubleshoot a problem so what so your life something changes how would he do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's been a hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi-cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official garner definition but I can create one on another spot it's do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't even understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose api's where is that optimization where's the focus well I take what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of the cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of you right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plane out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that plane out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and ship or they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco monks bring you star in the cloud recall that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and contrail is in the cloud so they just want to bring the management plain in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not truly cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive clown that close one letter yeah so that was a big con surgeon i reinvent take the tea out of cloud native its cloud naive i went super viral you guys got t-shirts now i know you love it but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of a double-edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling out but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really ACI in the cloud you call you you really like configure api so the cloud and nsx is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools it's difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know and network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like Al Kyra for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they want to create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week oh the only b2 networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like AV X and others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in AWS you can user it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck Nets a cops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you see this program their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get it via line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this VP see but this VP see automatically being your associate to your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VP C so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI mace which for us old folks know that means but you guys know this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objectives oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well I as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to that cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's where the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead the 20% extra functionality that of course every enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that can be an explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always gonna be that extra functionality the in in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visibility and control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggards who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some the signals that are going on in their environment what are some of the threshold or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well well once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robber will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's okay it's 80s it's easy user transit gateway put a few V pcs and you're done and use create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple is the operations that's when they'll realize okay now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not button tell me that I need to understand the basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi cloud because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi-vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client-server and internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this market because honestly public check hybrid cloud they're working on that that gets on-premise is done now multi-class right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what their cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start to it especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say on and I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against f5 I'm going to bring my five in the cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand ease ease and auto-scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that net I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start thinking okay what about visibility control about the tree cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming someone in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing thank you appreciate it [Applause] informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in a business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of them data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement with aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew it GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake assure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected two advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at three o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build are done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me consistency aviatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments and David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer panelist is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop we got the gardener giving us the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with the live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and it's soon gonna be a lot more coming so I want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is a is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets in different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting what's what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation 'el opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on pram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep yeah we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources to measure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google at Google Analytics our journey has evolved into mortal multi-cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi-cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you you know had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise that I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a particular perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect and we'll call it networking security net sec yep adverse adjusters network and that fourth generation or architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix a matrix doing the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity okay I need for multi-cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we're now having issues with having to to automate that component and making it consistent with our on-premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD when brought to the to the wine side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was some of the there was a path that's probably the biggest list and there is when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's a I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those there we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gate without a transit Gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and in evolve later and maybe optimize or change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model so that's the David yeah talking as earlier about day two operations so how do I design how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending eighty percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity of operations is key alright so the holistic view of day to operation you mentioned let's can jump in day one is your your your getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kinda what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stair out post multi-cloud world what are some of the things that you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router CLI and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards the DevOps model is anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of day 2 operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day 2 operations for a little while where you get well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to realize it's it's such a such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven or operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something there's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detect is important yeah I think garden was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's gonna be a serious thing I want to get you guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies how the networks laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have an intern crypt and they they ever get the question should I encryption and I'll encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely experiencing some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leaving the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you've got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for yours environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance of things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's ok we want to hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like and things like so yeah encrypting tunnels and encrypting the paths and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those backends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like aviatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I see AV traces here they're they're a supplier to the sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff people are not gonna buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's the what's it like where API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like um it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at that the API structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first in mind and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking become more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what it what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're gonna sit with you for your day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important Bobby how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore what's the Volvic bake-off last year first you win so but that's different now because now when you you get the product you can install the product in AWS energy or have it up and running a matter of minutes and so the key is is they can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks but but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you won't be put into a box with the other customers we have needs that surpass their cut their needs yeah I almost see the challenge that you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value to make an roll-up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's a there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this I like like Simone said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so you've got a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly IDEs area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms up organization think pause you're kind of like off a little bit it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know and as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers one of the blockers what are the enabler I think the reality is is that you may not think you're multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements in a secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to allow these clouds and used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the moment from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business team and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or sure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know makes you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will it make sense tgw is a game-changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool give you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw with a gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go Mull one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint do you agree with that premise and then wit is multi clouds did you mall together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that add value but the the network problem is still the same doesn't go away yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the network infrastructure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end of the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now how cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John fritz T Blaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Cooper welcome to stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you oK you've got all the cliff notes from the last session welcome rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move a pack from A to B and you get workloads exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds I mean that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your take yeah I mean it's it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to ET rate and make improvements over the time we got to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question adjusting they both have to answer okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gardner people come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from Mars like - we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing errands we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tour and the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are of and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really that's the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with Amit what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it's matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are going to run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it's the big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make them a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple it's latency and bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea now our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think you guys think infrastructure as code which I love that I think it's that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I just start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network as code because storage and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes on ServiceMaster and network is code reality is it there is it still got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same way we get to do it yeah and even security groups and then on top and aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah about this everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us it was similar on premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made because it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now i want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here i'm now pushing what i do in the cloud back into on Prem and wait and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from zero to a hundred of actually in the journey to cloud do you 50% there are you 10% yes I mean are you evacuating data centers next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together right in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extend out to the app tier that's going to be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of you know lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay go by it's a very different story it started from a garage and one hundred percent on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software-as-a-service one hundred percent on the cloud it was like ten years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask you Sora you guys mentioned DevOps I mean obviously we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this is about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this layer this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interestingly we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we owned that would be data center connectivity we now I work for soar as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times are between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workloads I mean s LA's will be all over the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and whatever ability is our is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's so you use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old days strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your days you have to figure out just what she reinsert that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency in our applications that start thinking start tracking in your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment was it was it from day one no there were two reasons one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot Network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that reference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting is how do I solve or guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just in your thoughts on anything any common uh so actually a multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as our acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are how could people using them but Google's got a great network Google's networks pretty damn good and then you got a sure what's the difference between the clouds who with they've evolved something whether they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes as you're better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is approaches different in many places Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workload like the your network and spend regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember 10 years back Amazon's Network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 so the VP sees concept came out multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the yeah I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architectural solution for example amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has advantages its third to market and so has seen what Asia did wrong it seemed with AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer 2 broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional Network facilities to us just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive questions so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like Wayne is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a datacenter when is the new link you could talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st way is kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high-speed but now when you take the win and make it essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah I think it's a it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you are a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the latencies and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there Lanois same concept is that BS I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native and we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way and than it was in a land that's where is what you're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yes so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that bet define those two land versus win but the other thing that's comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver vr af-s or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning this architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have apt to have security built in have TLS have encryption on the data I transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principles day Security's day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design build into our architecture into our applications it's encrypt everything it's TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff is interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us it's main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive and think that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we had we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's are you being closed-minded native being open minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total BS but what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's getting a bang and then and then Martin Mull and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speech would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and any time I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need to benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you and not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's good all right guys thanks for the great insight great time how about a round of applause DX easy solutions integrating company than we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba corkle will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs critical when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products have incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the Lyons cloud connectivity is a new line of networking services so we're getting into as our clients moving the hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services and aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a VA Church were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed to work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole and their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basically providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT maybe Atrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John Ford with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native network and we just heard from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come in to the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk Jerry to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are exactly you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we're having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the and then we evolved into the next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statement customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of Julie all that stuff but what specifically they digging into yeah so complexity I think when you look at a multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we tis anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard part's now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Terrance's the easy parts done now so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the - so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it not okay in our internal environment as you know we're a huge company or as customers so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I have another question oh but I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway DX c + w WT massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that world by technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking let's simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I would I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works is Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better right visibility's a huge thing jump in security alone network everything's around visibility what automation do you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's a low-hanging fruit what are people working on now what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud and automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were gonna integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of a VHS let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference textures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi-cloud in terms of you know customers want choice they didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and be risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud application as a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an interoperability approach is how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture it says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it in visibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lacking across the industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic okay in terms of aviatrix as you guys see them coming in they're one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging but multi-cloud you still got the old guard incumbents with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component and dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question while we were defining day two operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does day to Operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know day to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve the the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how the fast is expanding the number of features is astonish trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is that what's what happens do they call you up and say hey I need some multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's looks like typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we've got a factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what is VP she's sharing you know what is a private Lincoln or how does that impact your business we have customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts Georgia yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah and when I then is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to beep their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar right final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know the name customers didn't forget in reveal kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in that as you build that network foundation that architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off from and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed how do you success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen what what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good point guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators Hey [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm chef for with the cube Steve Eleni CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineers also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foster min from Attica Stacy linear from Teradata and Jennifer Reid with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys see where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear they're above the clouds towards a new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like a Squadron Leader Roger and leader yeah Squadron Leader so he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jennifer will start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but now working in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hmm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the VP C's and on the instance side is a security group or is it going on print and this is something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and I actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software they work takes care of itself yes he'll be we'll come back to that I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in network have always been the network's fault sure and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you've got a full stack DevOps you got to know a lot more times another hundred and these times are changing they see your squadron leader I get that right what is what is a squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think it probably just leading all the network components of it but are they from my perspective when to think about what you asked them was it's about no issues and no escalation soft my day is like that's a good outcome that's a good day it's a good day Jennifer you mentioned the Amazon thing this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things newly use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guys problem that girls problem so what is how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in those where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Stephen the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear but what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are full logs well as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they'd had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before he came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now mentoring a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about you know that's dimmer fault I walk in Mayr feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young P so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way or you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and that's old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compare it now most like we've heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static cuz back then you just said the network you got a perimeter yeah no there was no such thing ya know so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it now I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network current five cat 5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Avis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this within the program abilities it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS integer and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global si you help the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is it configuration is that aviatrix what is the amine oxy aviatrix is a certification but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor and easy answer is yes so you got to be a general let's go to your hands and all you have to be it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that's hops and [Music] advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not going to solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe six months ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed a good is that watching leader would put there yeah something that you see in your organizations are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I would guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi-cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I say from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps an official for us I think I would add that networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters buying helps give you validity so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so okay I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share what the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why shouldn't someone want to be an ace-certified I'm used to right engineer I think my views a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get no I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training and the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding it okay so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network definition getting eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that's just the next progression I don't say I expend that to more automation engineers because we have those nails probably well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but I've never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes some better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who've tradition down on prime networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud too well I know we got just under 30 seconds left but I want to get one more question than just one more for the folks watching that are you may be younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacey we'll start with you we'll go down let's say it's probably fundamental right if you want to deliver solutions no we're going use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you've come from top-down now you're gonna start looking from bottom up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you've built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the how the pipes are working you guys know what's going some plumbing that's right and they gotta know how it works I had a code it it's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certain ABS your certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John for you yeah so great event great event I'm not gonna take long we got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for not knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the Cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community aviatrix comm starting a community a multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as to start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more importantly where they're going and define that end state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we solve we help you define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their twenty-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music] you

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you you you you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] ladies and gentlemen please take your seats good morning ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 alright so we've got a fantastic event today I'm really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event it's not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a takeoff of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any PowerPoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got some owners chart of Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the US it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every Enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Franco Bree you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission-critical they care about visibility they care about control that about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers did they see the same thing we're going to validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is is architecture again with the IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're going to talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day two operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do i operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix we as leaders ooh we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CCI es what Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when to try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of joob John Ferrier [Applause] okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix where we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel to customer panels before that Gartner is going to come out and talk about the industry we have a global system integrators they talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask some own rashard to come on stage from Gartner we'll kick it all up [Applause] [Music] okay so kicking things off certain started gardener the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer the ninety-two a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering in the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow IT or application people are sometime a DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right as with different account and they create mesh to manage them and they have direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like Enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides that the atoms that are sent removing that to that cloud they ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the ad hoc way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the - they don't think about operations we have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift week they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these words are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct and that's what I call the optimal phase but even that they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS as accounts there's subscription and in as ER and GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate used the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that still wanna manage the cloud from an epi xx view I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they read they building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third-party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway up just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi cloud like a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in Azure one app in individuals one get app in Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never gonna happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the work load and the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking King be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while I run network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple you know I agree IPSec VPN and I reckon Express route that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which we cloud providers right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean it's just the day-to-day operations after you know the natural let's add an app that's not a server let's troubleshoot a problem so what ending so your life if something changes now what do you do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's the hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official gardener definition but I can create one on another spot is do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose API guys where is that optimization where's the focus well I think what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of that cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of view right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plan out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that playing out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and chip are they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco wants bring you star in the cloud they call that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and Khan trailers in a cloud so they just want to bring the management plain in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not really cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive well not so close one letter yeah so that was a big culture to reinvent take the tea out of cloud native it's cloud naive that went super viral you guys got t-shirts now I know you love yeah but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of a double-edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling up but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in Cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really scr in the cloud you can't you you really like configure API so the cloud and NSX is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools is difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know a network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like Al Kyra for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they want to create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week I was only be two networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like aviation others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in a table us you can use it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck net sec Ops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you see this ability their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get it V line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this V PC but this V PC automatically being your associate your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VPC so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI days which for us old folks know what that means but you guys know this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objections oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to the cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's what the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead to 20% extra functionality that of course every Enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that can be an explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always going to be that extra functionality that in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visible in control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggers who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some of the signals that are going on their environment what are some of the thresholds or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well one once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robbery will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's okay it's a TBS it's easy use a transit gateway put a few V PCs and you're done and you create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple as the operations that's when they'll realize okay now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not but I'm telling you that I need to understand a basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi cloud because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client-server an internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know you not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this because honestly public cloud check hybrid cloud they're working on that that kids on premise is done now multi class right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what there's cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start with especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against f5 I'm going to bring my five in a cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand is ease and auto scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that met I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start taking okay what about visibility control about the three cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming summit in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing thank you appreciate it thanks [Applause] informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in a business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of that data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement myth aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for her aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew what GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake measure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected two advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at three o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build or done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me consistency aviatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Applause] [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer pal this is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop against a gardener given this the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with a live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and the soon gonna be a lot more coming so I want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting what's what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation --all opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on bram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we're we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep yeah we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources to measure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google at Google Analytics our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a particular perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect and we'll call it networking security net sec yep versus Justice Network and that fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix I have a trick to in the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity ok the need for a multi cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we're now having issues with having the to automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that sty and brought to the do the web side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was the middle it was a path that's probably the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective we like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's a I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those now we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway about a trans a gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and it evolved later and maybe optimized for change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can't I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model so that's David yeah talking as we prepare about a day to operations so how do I design how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending eighty percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice to the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity of operations is key right all right so the holistic view of j2 operation you mentioned let's could jump in day one is you're you're you're getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kind of what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 miles their outpost multi-cloud world what are some of the things then you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router seoi and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards a DevOps model there's anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of date to operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day - operations for a little while where you get well well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to to realize it's it's such as such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something that it's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detection is important yeah I think Gardner was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's gonna be a serious thing I want to get you guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies how the network's laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have an equipment to encrypt and they they never get the question should i encryption and I'll encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely experiencing some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leaving the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for your environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance or things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting you got a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's ok wanna hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like encryption and things like so yeah encrypting tunnels and encrypting the paths and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those backends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like aviatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I'll see aviatrix is here they're their supplier to the sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff these people are not gonna here to buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's the what's it like we're API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at the PAP i structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first of mine and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking and more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what do what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on-site and they're gonna sit with you for a day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important probably how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore what's involving take off last year first you win so but that's different now because now you and you when you get the product you can install the product in AWS energy or have it up and running a matter of minutes and so key is is that it can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks right but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you want to be put into a box with the other customers we have needs that surpassed or cut their needs yeah I almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value depending on roll-up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's it there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this I like like Seamon said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so you've spent a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly IDEs area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah you know part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms up organization take pause you're kind of like off it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know in as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers what are the blockers what are the enablers I think the reality is is that you may not think your multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements Inc and then secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to lot of these clouds and they used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the problem from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business need and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that then your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or Azure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or are they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more than cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will they make sense tgw is a game changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool gives you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw or the Gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go mole to one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint you agree with that premise and then witness multi-cloud stitch them all together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction to add value but the the network problem is still the same go away yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round Hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the then they're working for structure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate Thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John for its Dee Mulaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Koopa Pokemon stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you oK you've got all the cliff notes from the last session welcome rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move attack from A to B and you get work gloves exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds I mean that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your taking yeah I mean it it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to iterate and make improvements over the time we got to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question adjusting they both have to answer but okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gardner people come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from Mars like to we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing Atkins we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tour and the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are available and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really got the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with a mint what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it's matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are going to run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it means the big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple it's a latency and bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think I do you guys think infrastructure has code which I love that I think that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I just start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network is code because stores and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes and service master and network is code reality is that there is got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same way three guys do it yeah and even security groups and then on top an aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah think about this everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us was similar on premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made cuz it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now i want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here i'm now pushing what i do in the cloud back into on-prem and what and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from 0 to 100 of actually in the journey to cloud do you 50% there are you 10% are you vacuum datacenters next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extend out to the app tier that's gonna be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay cool bye it's a very different story it started from a garage and 100% on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software as a service 100% on the cloud it was like 10 years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask you is or you guys mentioned DevOps I mean honestly we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this is about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interesting we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we owned that would be data center connectivity we now I work for as or as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth I think availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workloads SLA is will be all of the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and what our ability is hour is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's solely use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old day is strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your day is you have to figure out just what's your answer to that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency in our applications that's starting start tracking your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment over that was it from day one now there are two divisions one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that reference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting how do I solve our guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public Internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just on your thoughts on that I think any comment on that so actually multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as our acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are hiking people using them but Google's got a great network he googles networks pretty damn good and then you got Asher what's the difference between the clouds who where they evolve something where they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes as you're better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is the approach is different in many places Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workload like the your network can span regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember 10 years back Amazon's Network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 so so the VP sees concept came out multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the I mean I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architect your own solution for example Amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has a banjo it's third to market and so it has seen what a sure did wrong it's seen what AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer two broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional network facilities to us just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive questions so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like Wayne is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a datacenter when is the new link you get talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st winds kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high speed but now when you take a win and make the essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah i think it's a it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you're a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the latencies and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there land when same concept as that BS I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native and we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way and than it was in a land that's what you're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yeah so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that that define those two land versus when but the other thing that comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver VRS or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning that's architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have app to app security built-in have TLS have encryption on the data a transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principals day security is day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design we want our architecture into our applications its encrypt everything its TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff was interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us it's main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive insane that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we had we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's not me being closed-minded native being open minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total B yes but what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's giving you all these and then and then Martin Mull and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speech would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and any time I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need a benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you and not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's good all right guys thanks for the great insight great pen how about a round of applause DX easy solutions integrating company that we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba porco will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs its critical when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products that incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the lance cloud connectivity there's a new line of networking services that we're getting into as our clients moving the hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services an aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a v8 church we were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed for work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole in their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basically providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT infrastructure baby Atrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John fray with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native network and we start from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come into the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk Jerry to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yep yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we were having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying we're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the apps and then we evolved into that next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statements customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of Julie all that stuff but what specifically they did digging into yeah some complexity I think when you look at a multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard parts now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Tara says the easy parts done that so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises that are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the >> so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean - does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it okay in our internal environment as you know we're a huge company or as customers are in 30 so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I I have another question oh but I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway DX c @ w WT massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that world by technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking but simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the at the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I what I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works is Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better Bank visibily is a huge thing jump in security alone network everything's around visibility what automation you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's the low-hanging fruit what are people working on now and what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud an automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were going to integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of athe let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference architectures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi cloud in terms of you know customers want choice didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and D risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud application as a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an Billee approach is how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it invisibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lack in cross industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic okay in terms of aviatrix as you guys see them coming in there one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multi cloud you still got the old guard incumbent with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component and dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question what we were defining day to operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does day to Operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know day to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve that the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how the fast is expanding the number of features is astonishing trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is the what's what happens there they call you up and say hey I need multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we've got to factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what does VPC sharing you know what is a private link and asher how does that impact your business you know customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts Georgia yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah and when I've been is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar right final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know the name customers didn't again reveal kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in is you build that network foundation at architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi-cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off Prem and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed how do you success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen with what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm chef for with the q Steve Valenti CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineer is also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foss from informatica Stacy linear from Teradata and Jennifer Reed with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys see where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear they're above the clouds story to new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like it Squadron Leader Roger and leader yeah Squadron Leader he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jennifer we'll start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm really working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but networking in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the V PC is and on the instant side is a security group or is it going on print and is this something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software they work takes care of itself yes he'll be will good I'll come back to that I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in never I've always been the network's fault and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you've got a full stack DevOps you got to know a lot more times another 100 and these times are changing yeah they say you're Squadron Leader I get that right what is what is the squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think probably just leading all the network components of it but not they from my perspective when to think about what you ask them was it's about no issues and the escalation soft my day is a good outcome that's a good day it's a good day again every mission the Amazon this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things new we use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guys problem that girls problem so what how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in was where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Steve and the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear like what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are four logs well as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they'd had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before he came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now mentoring a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about yeah that's never fault I walk in Mayr feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young piece so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compare it now most like we've heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static because back then you just said the network you got a perimeter yeah I know there was no such thing yeah no so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it and how I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network current five cat 5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Avis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this with and programmability is it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS integer and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global s eyes cover the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is the configuration is that aviatrix what is the I mean obviate races the ACE certifications but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor easy answer is yes so you got to be a general let's go to your hands and all you have to be it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that is ops and [Music] advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not gonna solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe six ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed good is that watching leader would put there yeah is that something that you see in your organization's are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi-cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I see from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps and it's beneficial for us yeah I think I would add that uh networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know right it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters by your name helps give you validity um so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share with the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why should someone want to be an ace-certified I'm used to write engineer I think my view is a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get know I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training in the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of ok so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network initially eating eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that it's just the next progression I would say I expand that to more automation engineers because we have those nails probably extended as well well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but have never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes some better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who have tradition down on Prem networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud - well I know we've got just under 30 seconds left but I want to get one more question and just one more for the folks watching that are you maybe younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacy we'll start with you we'll go down let's say it's probably fundamental right if you want to deliver solutions networking use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you you've come from top-down now you're gonna start looking from bottom-up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the pilot pipes are working and some plumbing that's right works at how to code it that's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certain babies you're certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John for you yeah so great event great event I'm not going to take long we've got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the Aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for not knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community a bh6 comm was starting a community at multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more important where they're going and to find that end state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we saw we help you cook define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their 20-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] you

>>long from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering a ws re invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and in along with its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the Cube. Here live in Las Vegas for aws reinvent I'm John for a devil on the ads, always extracting the signal from the noise. We're here for 1/7 reinvent of the eight years that they've had at what a wave. One of the biggest waves is the modernization of procurement, the modernization of business, commercial business and the rapid acceleration of public sector. We're here with the chief of public sector for AWS. Teresa Carlson, vice president publics that globally great to have you >>so great to have the Q begin this year. We appreciate you being here, >>so we're just seeing so much acceleration of modernization. Even in the commercial side, 80 talks about transformation. It's just a hard core on the public sector side. You have so many different areas transforming faster because they haven't transformed before. That's correct. This is a lot of change. What's changed the most for you in your business? >>Well, again, I'll be here 10 years this mad that A B s and my eighth reinvent, and what really changed, which was very exciting this year, is on Monday. We had 550 international government executives here from 40 countries who were talking about their modernization efforts at every level. Now again, think about that. 40 different governments, 550 executives. We had a fantastic day for them planned. It was really phenomenal because the way that these international governments or think about their budget, how much are they going to use that for maintaining? And they want to get that lesson last. Beckett for Modernization The Thin John It's a Beckett for innovation so that they continue not only modernized, but they're really looking at innovation cycles. So that's a big one. And then you heard from somewhere customers at the breakfast this morning morning from from a T. F. As part of the Department of Justice. What they're doing out. I'll call to back on firearms. They completely made you the cloud. They got rid of 20 years of technical debt thio the Veterans Administration on what they're digging for V A benefits to educational institutions like our mighty >>nose, and he had on stages Kino, Cerner, which the health care companies and what struck me about that? I think it relates to your because I want to get your reaction is that the health care is such an acute example that everyone can relate to rising costs. So cloud helping reduce costs increase the efficiencies and patient care is a triple win. The same thing happens in public sector. There's no place to hide anymore. You have a bona fide efficiencies that could come right out of the gate with cloud plus innovation. And it's happening in all the sectors within the public sector. >>So true. Well, Cerner is a great example because they won the award at V a Veteran's administration to do the whole entire medical records modernization. So you have a company on stage that's commercial as I met, commercial as they are public sector that are going into these large modernization efforts. And as you sit on these air, not easy. This takes focus and leadership and a real culture change to make these things happen. >>You know, the international expansion is impressive. We saw each other in London. We did the health care drill down at your office is, of course, a national health. And then you guys were in Bahrain, and what I deserve is it's not like these organizations. They're way behind. I mean, especially the ones that it moved to. The clouds are moving really fast. So well, >>they don't have as much technical debt internationally. It's what we see here in the U. S. So, like I was just in Africa and you know what we talked about digitizing paper. Well, there's no technology on that >>end >>there. It's kind of exciting because they can literally start from square one and get going. And there's a really hunger and the need to make that happen. So it's different for every country in terms of where they are in their cloud journey. >>So I want to ask you about some of the big deals. I'll see Jet eyes in the news, and you can't talk about it because it's in protest and little legal issues. But you have a lot of big deals that you've done. You share some color commentary on from the big deals and what it really means. >>Yeah, well, first of all, let me just say with Department of Defense, Jet are no jet. I We have a very significant business, you know, doing work at every part of different defense. Army, Navy, Air Force in the intelligence community who has a mission for d o d terminus a t o N g eight in a row on And we are not slowing down in D. O d. We had, like, 250 people at a breakfast. Are Lantian yesterday giving ideas on what they're doing and sharing best practices around the fence. So we're not slowing down in D. O d. We're really excited. We have amazing partners. They're doing mission work with us. But in terms of some really kind of fend, things have happened. We did a press announcement today with Finn Rat, the financial regulatory authority here in the U. S. That regulates markets at this is the largest financial transactions you'll ever see being processed and run on the cloud. And the program is called Cat Consolidated Audit Trail. And if you remember the flash crash and the markets kind of going crazy from 2000 day in 2008 when it started, Finneran's started on a journey to try to understand why these market events were happening, and now they have once have been called CAT, which will do more than 100 billion market points a day that will be processed on the cloud. And this is what we know of right now, and they'll be looking for indicators of nefarious behavior within the markets. And we'll look for indicators on a continuous basis. Now what? We've talked about it. We don't even know what we don't know yet because we're getting so much data, we're going to start processing and crunching coming out of all kinds of groups that they're working with, that this is an important point even for Finn rep. They're gonna be retiring technical debt that they have. So they roll out Cat. They'll be retiring other systems, like oats and other programs that they >>just say so that flash crash is really important. Consolidated, honest, because the flash crash, we'll chalk it up to a glitch in the system. Translation. We don't really know what happened. Soto have a consolidated auto trail and having the data and the capabilities, I understand it is really, really important for transparency and confidence in the >>huge and by the way, thinner has been working with us since 2014. They're one of our best partners and are prolific users of the cloud. And I will tell you it's important that we have industries like thin red regulatory authorities, that air going in and saying, Look, we couldn't possibly do what we're doing without cloud computing. >>Tell me about the technical debt because I like this conversation is that we talk about in the commercial side and developer kind of thinking. Most businesses start ups, Whatever. What is technical debt meet in public sector? Can you be specific? >>Well, it's years and years of legacy applications that never had any modernization associated with them in public sector. You know now, because you've talked about these procurement, your very best of your very savvy now public sector >>like 1995 >>not for the faint of heart, for sure that when you do procurement over the years when they would do something they wouldn't build in at new innovations or modernizations. So if you think about if you build a data center today a traditional data center, it's outdated. Tomorrow, the same thing with the procurement. By the time that they delivered on those requirements. They were outdated. So technical debt then has been built up years of on years of not modernizing, just kind of maintaining a status quo with no new insides or analytics. You couldn't add any new tooling. So that is where you see agencies like a T F. That has said, Wow, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna have a modern agency that tracks things like forensics understands the machine learning of what's happening in justice and public safety, I need to have the most modern tools. And I can't do that on an outdated system. So that's what we kind of call technical death that just maintains that system without having anything new that you're adding to >>their capabilities lag. Everything's products bad. Okay, great. Thanks for definite. I gotta ask you about something that's near and dear to our heart collaboration. If you look at the big successes in the world and within Amazon Quantum Caltex partnering on the quantum side, you've done a lot of collaboration with Cal Cal Poly for ground station Amazon Educate. You've been very collaborative in your business, and that's a continuing to be a best practice you have now new things like the cloud innovation centers. Talk about that dynamic and how collaboration has become an important part of your business model. >>What we use their own principles from Amazon. We got building things in our plan. Innovation centers. We start out piloting those two to see, Could they work? And it's really a public private partnership between eight MPs and universities, but its universities that really want to do something. And Cal Poly's a great example. Arizona State University A great example. The number one most innovative university in the US for like, four years in a row. And what we do is we go in and we do these public sector challenges. So the collaboration happens. John, between the public sector Entity, university with students and us, and what we bring to the table is technical talent, air technology and our mechanisms and processes, like they're working backwards processes, and they were like, We want you to bring your best and brightest students. Let's bring public sector in the bowl. They bring challenges there, riel that we can take on, and then they can go back and absorb, and they're pretty exciting. I today I talked about we have over 44 today that we've documented were working at Cal Poly. The one in Arizona State University is about smart cities. And then you heard We're announcing new ones. We've got two in France, one in Germany now, one that we're doing on cybersecurity with our mighty in Australia to be sitting bata rain. So you're going to see us Add a lot more of these and we're getting the results out of them. So you know we won't do if we don't like him. But right now we really like these partnerships. >>Results are looking good. What's going on with >>you? All right. And I'll tell you why. That why they're different, where we are taking on riel public sector issues and challenges that are happening, they're not kind of pie in the sky. We might get there because those are good things to do. But what we want to do is let's tackle things that are really homelessness, opioid crisis, human sex trafficking, that we're seeing things that are really in these communities and those air kind of grand. But then we're taking on areas like farming where we talked about Can we get strawberries rotting on the vine out of the field into the market before you lose billions of dollars in California. So it's things like that that were so its challenges that are quick and riel. And the thing about Cloud is you can create an application and solution and test it out very rapidly without high cost of doing that. No technical Dan, >>you mentioned Smart Cities. I just attended a session. Marty Walsh, the mayor of Boston's, got this 50 50 years smart city plan, and it's pretty impressive, but it's a heavy lift. So what do you see going on in smart cities? And you really can't do it without the cloud, which was kind of my big input cloud. Where's the data? What do you say, >>cloud? I O. T is a big part at these. All the centers that Andy talked about yesterday in his keynote and why the five G partnerships are so important. These centers, they're gonna be everywhere, and you don't even know they really exist because they could be everywhere. And if you have the five G capabilities to move those communications really fast and crypt them so you have all the security you need. This is game changing, but I'll give you an example. I'll go back to the kids for a minute at at Arizona State University, they put Io TI centers everywhere. They no traffic patterns. Have any parking slots? Airfield What Utilities of water, if they're trash bins are being filled at number of seats that are being taken up in stadiums. So it's things like that that they're really working to understand. What are the dynamics of their city and traffic flow around that smart city? And then they're adding things on for the students like Alexis skills. Where's all the activity? So you're adding all things like Alexa Abs, which go into a smart city kind of dynamic. We're not shop. Where's the best activities for about books, for about clothes? What's the pizza on sale tonight? So on and then two things like you saw today on Singapore, where they're taking data from all different elements of agencies and presenting that bad to citizen from their child as example Day one of a birth even before, where's all the service is what I do? How do I track these things? How do I navigate my city? to get all those service is the same. One can find this guy things they're not. They're really and they're actually happening. >>Seems like they're instrumented a lot of the components of the city learning from that and then deciding. Okay, where do we double down on where do we place? >>You're making it Every resilient government, a resilient town. I mean, these were the things that citizens can really help take intro Web and have a voice in doing >>threes. I want to say congratulations to your success. I know it's not for the faint of heart in the public sector of these days, a lot of blockers, a lot of politics, a lot of government lockers and the old procurement system technical debt. I mean, Windows 95 is probably still in a bunch of PCs and 50 45 fighters. 15 fighters. Oh, you've got a great job. You've been doing a great job and riding that wave. So congratulations. >>Well, I'll just say it's worth it. It is worth it. We are committed to public sector, and we really want to see everyone from our war fighters. Are citizens have the capabilities they need. So >>you know, you know that we're very passionate this year about going in the 2020 for the Cube and our audience to do a lot more tech for good programming. This'll is something that's near and dear to your heart as well. You have a chance to shape technology. >>Yes, well, today you saw we had a really amazing not for profit on stage with It's called Game Changer. And what we found with not for profits is that technology can be a game changer if they use it because it makes their mission dollars damage further. And they're an amazing father. And send a team that started game changer at. Taylor was in the hospital five years with terminal cancer, and he and his father, through these five years, kind of looked around. Look at all these Children what they need and they started. He is actually still here with us today, and now he's a young adult taking care of other young Children with cancer, using gaming technologies with their partner, twitch and eight MPs and helping analyze and understand what these young affected Children with cancer need, both that personally and academically and the tools he has He's helping really permit office and get back and it's really hard, Warren says. I was happy. My partner, Mike Level, who is my Gran's commercial sales in business, and I ran public Sector Day. We're honored to give them at a small token of our gift from A to B s to help support their efforts. >>Congratulates, We appreciate you coming on the Cube sharing the update on good luck into 2020. Great to see you 10 years at AWS day one. Still, >>it's day one. I feel like I started >>it like still, like 10 o'clock in the morning or like still a day it wasn't like >>I still wake up every day with the jump in my staff and excited about what I'm gonna do. And so I am. You know, I am really excited that we're doing and like Andy and I say we're just scratching the surface. >>You're a fighter. You are charging We love you, Great executive. You're the chief of public. Get a great job. Great, too. Follow you and ride the wave with Amazon and cover. You guys were documenting history. >>Yeah, exactly. We're in happy holidays to you all and help seeing our seventh and 20 >>so much. Okay, Cube coverage here live in Las Vegas. This is the cube coverage. Extracting the signals. Wanna shout out to eight of us? An intel for putting on the two sets without sponsorship, we wouldn't be able to support the mission of the Cube. I want to thank them. And thank you for watching with more after this short break.

>>Hi, I'm Peter Burress. And welcome to another cute conversation. This one from BMC Helix is immersion days in Santa Clara Marriott in Santa Clara, California One of the biggest challenges that every IittIe organization faces. In fact, every business is how to start merging greater control through I t sm as well as greater change and evolve ability of systems through Dev ops. It's a big topic. A lot of folks looking at how best to do it. We've got a great person here to talk to us about it. Dick Stark is the president CEO of right star Dick. Welcome to the Cube. >>Well, thanks very much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity beyond the Cube here. >>Excellent. Well, why don't we start? Tell us a little about right start? >>Sure. Right. Stars in I t sm consultancy and we happen to be a dev Ops consulted to say at the same time, we're also a BMC solution provider and lasting solution provider. Now, we've been a BMC solution provider for for 16 years, so we've been in this space a long time and we've earned several accolades up along the way. We made it into the Forrester I t s m service provider. It's not called a Magic Quadrant because that's what God gardener uses. But instead it's a wave report. And so we made it sort of into the far right hand quadrant there. And if you added up all the points we ended up in North America being rated number five out of all the different idea Sam Consultancy. So it's very proud about that. And then last year with BMC, we were the North American Solution provider of the year in the D S. M space. >>Well is an export person, I can tell you Congratulations. Those waves very seriously. Let's jump into this question, though off what does I t. S m from a technology and people in process standpoint have to do to accommodate some of the changes that are being founded and defusing out of the Hole Dev Ops world, which is just having an enormous impact on our I t thinks and does >>it really has. And you know, we've been in the space a long time and I t s m Sometimes I tell the words are interchangeable and there are about if you can believe this about three million people That ended up getting an Idol certification of some short like an Idol Foundation certificate. And over time, that's been have been a really a big, big deal. However, Idol now is lost, its luster just a little bit. And it's allowed Dev ops to sort of sneak in or add dollar whatever you won't want to call it, and I'd listen. Standing still, though, they've bounced back and bounce back in a hard way. And they've they've come up with what's now called Idle for an Idol For was just released this this year, and it takes some of those Dev ops principles, and it has its own value stream as well and is a result Idle for or agile idol or whatever you wanna call it now is taking a little bit stronger position. And when I say Dev ops principles, it's things like Collaborate. It's things like promote, it's It's things like operate and automate. It's It's It's all about it again. It's all about collaboration in some of these other values that that you'll see in Dev ops. I guess what what happened is we spent a lot of time on the Idol side of things, and we did things for process sake and a good example would be changed management and spent a lot of time putting together is change management processes per this idol framework. Okay, And what what happened is that a lot of the users then rebelled a little bit because it might take longer to go through and fill out all the paperwork of It's not paperwork the online tool set then to do a change than to actually perform the change itself. So I don't got a little bit of a bad rap. And so that's where this whole Dev ops thing has come in. And the whole idea right now is to get Dev and Ops under the Shame umbrella, because that's not typically very used to do. But it's, but it's certainly happening. >>Well, let's talk about why that intersections happening, right? So I'm gonna I'm gonna show a little bit of history from my perspective as well, you know, I told began, First of all, it started in some government agencies many years ago, but it started as the basis of it was How do we take better care of the assets with an I T. Which at the time were mainly hardware. In many respects, what we've seen happen over the last 25 30 years that Idol has been an extent. Is that the nature of the assets that I t recognizes? His acknowledges delivering value for the business has changed. We've gone from hardware to infrastructure is code. That's where Dev Ops is so many respects. What you're saying is that Iittle is now trying to bring the best of what it means to do a good job of asset management with a new class of assets. Namely, software is code infrastructures code, and that's where we have to have that marriage. I got that right. >>That's that's correct. And you don't want to have silent silos. You want to be a silo buster if if anything else. And I just wanted to mention something else that I think is kind of fun along with this Idol. Four. We now do what's called the Mars Lander simulation traded it replaced. If you've heard of the Apollo 13 simulation, will Mars four, even though it's idle for specific, it's really all about Dev ops, and I took the Mars board just about a month or so ago, and it's a lot of fun. You sit down and the whole objective is to get get to Mars and you're a business. So and you're going to be selling the data that you're going to collect along along the way. And so the whole idea is to is to make a profit, and you have all these different roles that you play. When I went through it, I was the release manager then. But you might have a business analyst. You might have a service desk person. You have vendors and a it's it's really it's very realistic that and typically like a lot of large enterprises, you start playing the game and it's just chaos, and you have to go back and try this over and over again until essentially you get it right. And I was surprised how easy it is to get sucked in. If you're in a big enterprise, your silent, you have a specific role that you have to d'oh and you have instructions how you're supposed to do that and you want to stick to it. Whatever you know, whatever your assignment is, you have to do that. But that's not the right thing to Dio. Remember, it's about collaboration. It's about transparency. It's been it's about posting your goals, posting the results and moving forward from from there. And so I was surprised how I got sucked into it. And so I can understand why we need to make some progress in this space. And it's all about getting people to change their behavior a little bit in some of these new tool set certainly help >>well, as well. You're going back to what you said. He used to be the three R's of any regime or rolls responsibilities and relationships, and so the roles have are evolving. But often it's just in name only the responsibilities. You know today it's still code. It still has to run on hard, where it's not a bunch of hamsters, they're doing things. But as you said, it's really the relationships amongst the various actors as we introduce more business people. As technology gets put into position to generate more revenue or to do more with customer experience, the relationships are being pressured, are being really pushed to evolve. So how do you see in your practice in right stars practice. How do you see the relationships between Dev ops and I T s M and the business starting to evolve so that you can have amore coherent, comprehensive view of how you make sister? Well, >>I think in that particular case, it's gonna take some time. I mean, it's not gonna happen overnight. I mean, that's why you have agile coaches, or that's while you have the scales agile, or the safe framework is because people don't get it. And they need to understand how to work together better with others. And so it's not gonna happen by just implementing a new new tool set turning the key and then say, OK, everything's gonna be fine. It's good to get the integration between the different tool sets. And the technology is certainly there to do that. But without having some instruction to begin with and having the door in users cooperate. You're not going to see that kind of kind of performance improvement or cost statements or whatever it is that you're looking for. You're not going to see that >>they're one of the biggest challenges in any changes. Abandonment. The user's ultimately abandoned. So as you look a tte. The ideas M tool set that you're utilizing mainly from being right is it is that there's a degree of there's always a degree of pedagogic tool away, it says. Here's how you should do things. What you're discovering is that tool set is really catalyzing. Helping to catalyze positive changes in your mind within a lot of your customer base is, well, the >>thing about Helix, and I'm very excited about this because we're making a lot of good progress with. He likes our customer base that we have right now and give you a good example. George Washing University were based in a D C. Area day. If they are, too, they've been a long time remedy customer. We've moved them to Helix, and then, just recently, when I say recently started a year ago in August, they moved to the BMC Chap Cat box platform. Then, this past August, they totally went cold turkey with chatbots throughout the entire university. That makes a tremendous difference in the performance and not just performance, but also on the cost and the efficiency that the university, particularly from a service management perspective, is providing to its university employees and to its students, just like you mentioned today in the keynote session that it's all about mobility. And practically practically all the students there rely on their their cellphone day in and day out. And so when they have a question at G W. If it's how do I get a new account? How do I get a park parking permit? G on the wireless in my dorm room isn't working. You don't pick up the phone and call. Nobody does that you texted at. And this is a chap off its power by IBM Watson, and it works great. And there's lots of good things that are gonna come out of that. For example, students, I think they probably still have to turn paper sent. You know, maybe that's all Elektronik Lee delivered, but I think you might still have to print out a paper and turn it into your professor. You know, I'm not sure, but bluebirds Anyway, you're probably you're probably gonna do this late at night when the service desk is an open. So what do you do if you can't get the printer to work? Well, you pick up your cell phone, you text in that That the issue and bingo. You've got a response. So those are the sorts of things that are gonna make for a tremendous amount of impact, and it's gonna cause people to change their behavior in really a good way. Another good example. We have another longtime hospital customer. They have a 24 by seven service desk. They're huge, and they pay a lot of money to operate that 24 by seven. But they hardly get any call said at night. Right? Because not that many people work. So why don't they just turn that and you start using chatbots and think of that the r A. Y. It's just incredible. And I think you're going to see more. And that more situations like that as we move forward. >>Dick start President CEO of right Starr. Yep. Thanks very much for being too. >>Thanks very much. Appreciate it. Okay. >>And what's going on? Peter Burress. You've been watching other cube conversation from BMC Helix immersion days in Santa Clara. Thanks very much. Next time

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2019 Brought to you by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone to The Cube's live coverage here in San Francisco, California for VMworld 2019. We are here in the broadcast booth. We have two sets going on all day for three days. The last day of winding down VMworld of our coverage. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Stu Miniman is holding down on the other set. But here we are going to analyze what's happened at VMworld 2019. We've assembled the top industry analysts. My co-host Dave Vellante, Peter Burris and David Floyer with Wikibon who have been in the analyst sessions in the hallways, doing briefings, digging getting all the data. Let's analyze it. Guys welcome to theCUBE, welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thank you. >> All right so what's the analysis. VMworld 2019. >> What's the core of it? I believe that the core of it is that they're taking their centralized and data center platform and extending it. Extending it to the edge, extending it to every aspect. Extending it to multiple clouds not just AWS but a whole number of clouds. Extending it right the way down to the edge even with ARM processor capabilities, and extending the interoperability, the hybrid nature of those offerings. And trying to establish themselves as one of the core platforms for distributed hybrid processing. >> Peter what's your take? How should the business model with Pivotal, they got security in there. What's your analysis of VMworld 2019, what's happening? >> The analysis of the show is, it's, I'd say it's interesting. It's not as strong as it could've been. But let's start here, per what David said, look, these guys made a major bet three years ago that a lot of, it was like on a knife's edge, which way is going to go. And it went the right way. And we observed last year that it went the right way not just cause it was a good idea but because Gelsinger built the team that could execute. And what I would say out of David's stuff cause I think you're a little bit, you're getting ahead a little bit on some of the edge stuff and there's still a lot of work that's got to get done but I think what users should walk away from the show with is they made a bet, it turned out to be the right bet and this is a team that can execute. And the promises that they had been making they have been realizing. And that's where I say that it's kind of what's, it's almost a weird thing because in many respects VMware could be screaming from the rooftops at this point in time that they are Switzerland with teeth. They can work with everybody but do so in a way that actually does have manifest impacts on how digital businesses work. And so I think in almost a weird way VMworld 2019 was more subdued than it could have been. The industry is still looking for that thought leader that company that's going to provide that kind of central, that kind of center piece of what's going to happen. And a lot of folks don't want it to be AWS. And it's almost like VMware could have been a little bit more forceful, a little bit stronger in how they talked about the success that they're having. >> So you're saying they're a little bit humble. They could have been louder and prouder about their accomplishments. >> Or you know, sometimes I almost wondered do they really know the tiger that they're riding right now because they're a lot of enterprises out there that are truly starting to bank on these guys and their success is being increasingly tied to VMware's success. >> Peter brings up a great point, I want to get your thoughts on this because you've been digging into the numbers. I think they actually have a great team, they got all these business units they seem to be kind of getting them into formation. It's almost as if they don't want to brag too much because they got more work to do. As you mentioned the edge. >> Peter: Yes a lot of work to do. >> And I think you laid it out perfectly in terms of what they're trying to do. I think Peter you bring the reality to it but they've still got to beaver away on some things. They got work to do. What's your take on this? >> Well, so I want to pick up on something that Peter said, so Pat said the strengths lie in the differences not the similarities. There's a lot of differences between the bets the VMware is making and the bets that Amazon is making. Now, can they both payoff, yeah they probably can but we've noted the differences. Amazon doesn't talk about multicloud. Amazon says cloud security is great. Don't say it's broken, that's a bad narrative. Amazon says that they want to be or they are the platform for developers and the future of the best infrastructure in developers company. That's what VMware wants to be. So I see those two at odds. >> Well aren't they different animals though. Amazon's in the cloud business. >> They are different animals except when it comes to the large enterprises that this year have actually put stakes in the ground about how they're going to move forward with cloud. >> John: What are those stakes? >> Well, first off they're saying, where the data goes, that's where the service needs to go. They're starting to acknowledge that the relationship between data and IP is very real. They have fully acknowledged it's going to be hybrid cloud or it's going to be multicloud and that SAAS applications are going to be still, as bet with our analysis, is going to be the dominant feature of that. And I don't mean to cut you off Dave. >> Dave: No it's all right. >> But that's where the enterprise is going. The enterprise doesn't want to spend a lot of time talking about S3 and object stored. They want to talk about how the services are going to get to the data where they want the services to be. >> John: Good point. >> I think there's one other point that we should add to that what VM's capability is, is that you don't have to migrate the applications. VMware owns those applications and the cost of migration is huge. >> Peter: If the application's in VMware. >> If the applications in VMware. So they're offering ... >> John: Which many are. >> Peter: Many are. >> Many are yes. So they're offering a lower cost way of getting to the cloud if they can execute on the capabilities of putting containers into their platform and to make it a microservices platform. So if they deliver that and maintain that continuity with their existing base that is a powerful place to come from. >> Although David, I think you'd agree with this that even in the cloud today things like microservices are not really the as is position. It's definitely ahead and it's moving forward but so VMWare can show, we can get you to that cloud experience. We may lag a little bit when it comes to containers but it's going to be a few years before containers are the default way of doing things. >> Guys Pat Gelsinger, I want to get your reaction to this cause this is, you have to add some color to this because he left it just hanging out there. His last comment was, looking forward 10 years, and look back for 10 years of theCUBE coverage, he said networking, security and Kubernetes are the three waves that you need to be on. >> Networking, security, and Kubernetes. Not networking security. >> John: No, networking as a ... Networking needs to solved, security and Kubernetes. Three waves, you got to be on those waves. What does he mean by that? What do you think he means by that? Networking in terms of on premise networking. >> Well I think that, I'll start David. But I think the first thing to note is that, and Dave and I have talked about this a lot in some of the segments we've done. The cloud was miscast as a centralization trend. What the cloud really is, is a framework for how you think about distributing data, and distributing the work that's going performed against that data closer to where it's actually required and where it's actually created and consumed. And that's really how we should be thinking about the cloud, is it's a way of distributing work and distributing data to where it needs to be. That means networking is essential because, and we're starting to hear this from large users, in many respects they're wondering how their networking strategy and their cloud strategy are going to fold in and be the same strategy. On the security front, yeah you got to have end to end but how do you put a perimeter around a cloud. That's not clear. And we're thinking about going towards data security you know, data security and zero trust security but perimeter still, stuff is still very important. There's some very new technologies and interesting technologies that are trying to bring some of that perimeter stuff to that notion. Networking, security, and the last one was Kubernetes. The thing that's interesting and I could see why Pat would say that because it's very true for VMware. >> They're betting on Kubernetes. Is that another knife edge bet? >> Well no it really isn't. See, it is, maybe you could say it is but look, a virtual machine virtualizes hardware. A container platform virtualizes the operating system. And so is it possible the containers are going to end up virtualizing VMware and what does that mean for VMware? So VMware has to reach up and be a phenomenal place for containers, otherwise the value propositions going to move up and beyond them. >> And the Kubernetes has been picked because that is an open source. It means it has the potential of being a standard across multiple clouds, and offers that ability to automate and orchestrate across in a way that no other set of software can do. It's a long way to go. He's putting a bet on it and I think it's the correct bet to do there. But it's a long way to go before you will see if that's the right bet. >> What about networking and security honestly, IoT's in there. Peter mentions these use cases that requires data. The original Cloud 1.0 definition was, I'm building it out, I'm a startup. I'm going to just build my app in the cloud and I'm not delivering, the data's in the cloud. >> Peter: And all my users are going to connect to the cloud. >> Now Cloud 2.0 is really going down what you're saying so networking becomes fundamental. >> Networking becomes fundamental not just to move data around but to move code to data as well. >> Well to your point the cloud is this massively scalable distributed system. >> That's right. It is the massively distributed, scalable distributed system and the other thing that I'd say about Kubernetes, networking and security is Kubernetes is a cluster, a way of describing or thinking about application from a clustering standpoint which is inherently networking. And so Kubernetes in many respects is describing how application networking's going to look in a few years. But the other thing that's interesting about it, is because it's virtualizing that operating system, challenges associated with distribution of code, of versions, of all that other stuff about how you handle software life cycle, with Kubernetes, it's going to be that much more cloud like in the future. And I think as we go forward it would be interesting to imagine a security model that is built on top of Kubernetes that allows you to literally take elements of containers and vary those containers in just like every 36 hours so no part of your code base is older than 36 hours. Think about how much more secure that would be than what we have today. >> I'm a big fan of Kubernetes. I think it's a great bet. I don't think it's a knife edge. I think it's pretty obvious and it's either go one way or the other. The cloud guys are either going to fork it and slow it down >> They'll fork it and slow it down but it's still going to go. >> That's job number one. Job's not done so Kubernetes doesn't run. >> Let's put it this way, John, that in 10 years 80% of software is not going to be based in Kubernetes. >> John: Guys switch topics here. >> Dave: I think that's a safe bet. >> Yeah. >> Let's switch topics. I want to get analysis on VMware as a software company. Pat mentioned Nicira, which was SDN which became software-defined data center. Obviously big moves with 5G which I think is more of a telegraph of the future. Service provider narrative. Kind of sounds like going after Cisco to me. So Cisco's value proposition, again to your point about directionally correct, VMware makes these statements. Their most product direction with a demo, they show a little directions, some clarity and then they got to fill in the blanks. That's been their move. Cisco's up and running, they have a network of devices. They have UCS, ACI. Is there a collision course with VMware and Cisco? >> Pat said on theCUBE, we've got a multi billion dollar networking business. He said in the past that Cisco's a great hardware company. We want to do to networking and storage what we did to compute. I think it's no question. And then the data from ETR, the Enterprise Technology Research guys, the guys that do the panel, show that very clearly NSX is slowly negatively impacting Cisco hardware sales. So, yes, there's absolutely no question in my mind. Having said that, when you talk to customers, and I've talked to several this week and I've asked them that question. How is NSX affecting your Cisco spend. These are Cisco customers, and they say, oh we're sticking with Cisco. We're going with ACI. because that's the majority of Cisco customers to your point David, aren't going to just migrate off and throw away their Cisco gear. It's not going to happen. >> It's the same thing. They've invested a huge amount of money in doing that. It works and as long as Cisco ... >> Who's they, Cisco? >> No the customers have invested that huge amount of money in all of that infrastructure all of that way it works and they will, as long as Cisco continues to invest and continues to invest in software as well for that platform. >> If you're advising the CEO of Cisco what would your advice be to him? Get your thinking cap on, you're coming next. Hold on I want David to go. >> He's dying to jump in. >> The core that Cisco has to manage is finding solutions to multicloud and hybrid cloud issues. There has to be an end to end. They have to provide more of the data planes, more of the control planes, and more software to enable this connectivity across these different clouds. >> Can Cisco move up the stack as fast as VMware because one's a software company one is a hardware company but it's software now. >> That is the challenge that Cisco has is putting in place the people the resources and the techniques to actually drive that. >> Your thoughts, your advising the CEO. >> So before I advise the CEO I'm going to make one quick observation about the collision course. I was trying to think about this Dave. I can't think of, just off the top of my head, I can't think of a single hardware company that was driven out of business by VMware when they virtualized systems. Maybe there were some, maybe there were some that would say, oh I'm gone because of VMware. I think it made it more productive, it probably took some of the capacity out. But at the end of the day the stuff doesn't run on hamsters right. It's an interesting question. >> Sun? >> I don't think it was VMware. >> Not directly but it certainly gave a lot of tail wind to X86 [John] Linux and Intel killed Sun. >> Right, gave a big tail wind to X86. That was a different set of trends, right. It was related, your right. >> Dave: Definitely related. >> But the point it, I'm not sure that NSX is going to drive networking companies or network hardware companies out of business. >> No I didn't say they'd drive them out of business but would you not agree that VMware made the server business a lot less interesting? >> It changed the value, it changed the degree to which the hardware itself was regarded as the asset around which the IT Organization had to create it's value proposition, it's organization it's worth closing center. VMware became much more strategic than ... >> No question about it. >> Than HP, Lenovo. And Dell servers. >> We should talk about this more. >> Right now you're advising the CEO. >> So here's my advice to the CEO of Cisco. Your networking guys are killing innovation in your company. Right now the networking guys have an absolute stranglehold on how Cisco behaves, where Cisco does. We've all encountered these really great ideas bubbling up out of Cisco and they emerge and they're there for about six weeks or eight weeks or six months and then they suddenly disappear and you go and you do the forensics on the crime that was committed and it turns out that the networking hardware guys ended up rising up and affectively launching the antibodies on every new innovation virus. >> You mean internally in Cisco? >> Dave: That's a really interesting point. >> They have a Clayton Christensen innovators dilemma problem that they got to fix. >> And Chuck Robbins I think understands this and this is why he's putting so much emphasis on DevNet. Because he see's that the DevNet opportunity to create infrastructure that's programmable is a way potentially out of that innovation lock. >> If I was advising the CEO of Cisco I would kind of take the same cultural thing. I think you're right on the money on the culture. Gelsinger has a team, you point that out that's really good insight. My advice is simple. Double down on DevNet. Turn the networking guys, by the way, who have the keys to the kingdom in every single enterprise so they're running and operating enterprise networks and data centers. The network guys are the most powerful people in the companies in IT. Turn them into active coders. That's what DevNet is doing. That is totally the right move. Change the culture within your customer base, If that's not going to work internally then you know. >> But the whole of the cloud thing has brought together storage, networking and compute as a single object, a single distributed object. And one of the things that VMware has done with NSX is reflect what AWS and ITO were doing beforehand which is lowering the cost of storage very, very significantly, and putting the functionality into software as opposed to hardware. >> If I was Cisco, I would be looking hard at doing something big with Google. Because Amazon is VMware's preferred partner. I would figure out a way to get belly up to Google and figure out something bigger. It's not going to happen with Microsoft. They don't really need Cisco. Google needs someone like Cisco. >> I'm sorry from a customer engagement standpoint? >> From a customer engagement standpoint and to help Cisco's cloud relevance. Cause right now even in the multicloud world, no one even knows. What you just said David, that's exactly what Cisco's doing and nobody even knows about it. >> That's right. >> Well they could be the backbone of the Cloud 2.0. Go back in history, coaxial cables had many computers attached to them. Then you had Cat 5, Cat 3 wiring, you had hubs. Then you had subnetworks, you had internetworking. Campus building. That became the network. Cisco is the same kind of option for cloud to be the on ramp. That's what VMware wants to do. Dell wants to be the on ramp, VMware wants to be on ramp. Cisco's running the networks ... >> And another piece for Cisco, and you've said this before Peter, is security. You talk about VMware being the cloud security company, if I were Cisco those would be fighting words. Cisco is in a strong position from it networking base to be a leader in security. >> And I think you got a good point Dave. The thing I'd say John, and you guys have all heard me say this, but I'll say it again. What killed mini computers was not just the microprocessor. It was that DEC had DECnet and DG had digital whatever it was. And along came Ethernet and along came IP and along came Cisco and it flattened all those networks. Networks want to be flat. And AWS, if you start to talk about Kubernetes, all these little proprietary tweaks to Kubernetes which fundamentally is how you think about doing a programmable network, physics and everything else, technology is going to want to flatten that stuff as much as possible. And Cisco should be participating in that and they're not because their networking guys are saying, no, no, no, nobody gets into our sales organization except us networking hardware guys. And that's a problem. >> They got to go back. When VMware went back to their roots that made them stronger. Cisco's got to go back to their networks thinking it differently, I agree with you. They could be the backbone for multicloud. That's their opportunity. >> But it's got to be a flat network to do that. They've got this entrenched North, South mentality even though they see the trends. >> Okay, final summary guys, let's wrap this up. Let's go around the horn, start with Peter. Take-away's from 2019 VMworld, our 10th year theCUBE coverage. What's your thoughts? >> The machinations, two I'd say. The organizational machinations inside Dell Technologies have got a long ways to go. There's a lot more coming as Michael figures out he wants to institutionalize all this thing. But he's got two great executives. Pat Gelsinger has turned into a pretty darn good CEO. So I'd say that VMware is seeing the market good, they've got a great team, they're executing really well. They're at least putting bets where they need to but here's, I think the biggest weakness, and this came up in one of the session in the analyst thing, we all know how VMware expects things to come to VMware and how VMware is going to be effectively the manager of record, the cloud of record for all clouds. Okay good. But it's not going to be. The reality is VMware is going to emerge as an extremely important on premise and cloud technology if that's what you want to do, that allows companies to have those options about where they put stuff. But how is VMware going to express itself to other clouds? From a management standpoint, from a control plane standpoint, from a data standpoint. That's not clear, and big enterprises are going to start pushing them pretty soon to say, okay great, but we're not just going to do you. How are you going to be managed by the stuff that we want? How are you going to be a resource where we want our management points to be. >> John: Dictate terms. >> Right. >> The customers going to dictate terms. That's a great point. David Floyer you're up. >> All right, so the biggest challenge for VMware is that is making themselves successful in the public cloud. AWS owns that business. They are very, very cost effective. They are driving very, very hard, and the clash is going to be when AWS goes into the distributed side and comes into full contact with Dell and VMware in that space. So the race is on between the efficiency that they can create for this network and the efficiency that AWS can create by getting better and better at distributed computing. They will go into multicloud, they will go into. >> John: Dave your thoughts. >> I've talked a lot this week about multicloud and what I think is real and what's BS. I've talked about VMware's acquisitions. I want to change it up a little bit. When you come to these events, the big picture of how we're changing the world and we're changing society, tech for good, all that stuff, I just want to make a point for historical context. I think it's indisputable that the first 50 years of last century from the early 1900s to 1950s were far more remarkable than the last 50 years of IT. And I think sometimes we sit out here in Silicon Valley and smoke our own, you know, whatever, >> It's legal here actually. >> And how we're changing the world. And I'm not saying we're not changing the world but Pat Gelsinger said there's never been a more important time to be a technologist. Well he may be right, and I'm not saying this to disparage the statement but I'm just, again trying to provide some historical context. You're up against telephones, planes, automobiles, the electrical grid itself. So I leave you with this question, what's more impactful from a society standpoint, and from an economics standpoint, the move from automobiles to autonomous vehicles or the move from horses to cars? And I think that as an industry we have a long way to go in terms of being the most important time to be a technologist. >> I think I agree with Gelsinger. It's the most important time to be a technologist now cause more than change is required. I think if you look at the data, I think this shows all about Cloud 2.0. I think some of the things that Peter, Dave you pointed out points right to it. Customers are dictating terms and the infrastructure's evolving and the enablement of what that system looks like is going to spin in favor of the customer. And they're going to start making those changes because to change society, it's not going to come from the vendors. That's just philanthropy. It's going to come from people building applications. I think the Cloud 2.0 equation has to fill out. >> I think you're right. If in fact this is going to be the most important time for technologists, it absolutely has to come from the buyers of technology and the people applying technology not the vendor community. No doubt. >> It's a great question though Dave. Great question. >> We're going to take that question to our power panels in the studio, Palo Alto and Boston. Of course theCUBE studios. Check it out. We are here wrapping up VMworld 2019. Want to do a shout out to VMware for allowing us to be part of their ecosystem for 10 years. It's been a great run from 2010 when we had cameras that we turned and we thought they'd work, they did. The system got better every year and that's to the generous support of our ecosystem partners who sponsored theCUBE so we can create content editorially and co-create with the sponsors for the betterment of the audiences. And thanks to that we get better equipment every year. And shout out to the great team we have here. Amazing execution. Two full sets. And thanks to my co-hosts and the teams. Stu's not here, he's on the other set. Jeff Frick who's running it all. What a great team. I want to thank VMware and the entire community for 10 years. That's a sign off for theCUBE. 10 at Vmworld 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from New York, it's theCube! Covering AWS Global Summit 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back, we're here at the Javits Center in New York City for AWS Summit, I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost is Corey Quinn and happy to welcome to the program Scott Mullins, who's the head of Worldwide Financial Services Business Development with Amazon Web Services based here in The Big Apple, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, Stu, thanks for having me, Corey. >> All right so we had obviously financial services big location here in New York City. We just had FINRA on our program, had a great conversation about how they're using AWS for their environments, but give us a thumbnail if you will about your business, your customers and what you're seeing there. >> Sure, we're working with financial institutions all the way from the newest FinTech startups, all the way to organizations like FINRA, the largest exchanges and brokers dealers like Nasdaq, as well as insurers and the largest banks. And I've been here for five years and in that time period I actually went from being a customer speaking at the AWS Summit here in the Javits Center on stage like Steve Randich was today to watching more and more financial institutions coming forward, talking about their use in the cloud. >> Yeah before we get into technology, one of the biggest trends of moving to cloud is I'm moving from CapEx more to OpEx and oh my gosh there's uncertainty because I'm not locking in some massive contract that I'm paying up front or depreciating over five years but I've got flexibility and things are going to change. I'm curious what you're seeing as the financial pieces of how people both acquire and keep on the books what they're doing. >> Yeah it can be a little bit different, right, then what most people are used to. They're used to kind of that muscle memory and that rhythm of how you procured technology in the past and there can be a stage of adjustment, but cost isn't really the thing that people I think look to the most when it comes to cloud today, it's all about agility and FINRA is a great example. Steve has talked about over and over again over the last several years how they were able to gain such business agility and actually to do more, the fact that they're now processing 155 billion market events every night and able to run all their surveillance routines. That's really indicative of the value that people are looking for. Being able to actually get products to market faster and reducing development cycles from 18 months to three months, like Allianz, one of our customers over in Europe has been able to do. Being able to go faster I think actually trumps cost from the standpoint of what that biggest value driver that we're seeing our customers going after in financial services. >> We're starting to see such a tremendous difference as far as the people speaking at these keynotes. Once upon a time you had Netflix and folks like that on stage telling a story about how they're using cloud to achieve all these amazing things, but when you take a step back and start blinking a little bit, they fundamentally stream movies and yes, produce some awesome original content. With banks and other financial institutions if the ATM starts spitting out the wrong number, that's a different point on the spectrum of are people going to riot in the street. I'm not saying it's further along, people really like their content but it's still a different use case with a different risk profile. Getting serious companies that have world shaking impact to trust public cloud took time and we're seeing it with places like FINRA, Capital One has been very active as far as evangelizing their use of cloud. It's just been transformative. What does that look like, from being a part of that? >> Well you know it's interesting, so you know you just said it, financial services is the business of risk management. And so to get more and when you see more and more of these financial institutions coming forward and talking about their use of cloud, what that really equates to is comfort, they've got that muscle memory now, they've probably been working with us in some way, shape or form for some great period of time and so if you look at last year, you had Dean Del Vecchio from Guardian Life Insurance come out on stage at Reinvent and say to the crowd "Hey we're a 158 year old insurance company but we've now closed our data center and we're fully on AWS and we've completed the transformation of our organization". The year before you saw Goldman Sachs walk out and say "Yeah we've been working with AWS for about four years now and we're actually using them for some very interesting use cases within Goldman Sachs". And so typically what you've seen is that over the course of about a two year to sometimes a four year time period, you've got institutions that are working deeply with us, but they're not talking about it. They're gaining that muscle memory, they're putting those first use cases to begin to scale that work up and then when they're ready man, they're ready to talk about it and they're excited to talk about it. What's interesting though is today we're having this same summit that we're having here in Cape Town in Africa and we had a customer, Old Mutual, who's one of the biggest insurers there, they just started working with us in earnest back in May and they were on stage today, so you're seeing that actually beginning to happen a lot quicker, where people are building that muscle memory faster and they're much more eager to talk about it. You're going to see that trend I think continue in financial services over the next few years so I'm very excited for future summits as well as Reinvent because the stories that we're going to see are going to come faster. You're going to see more use cases that go a lot deeper in the industry and you're going to see it covering a lot more of the industry. >> It's very much not, IT is no longer what people think of in terms of Tech companies in San Francisco building products. It's banks, it's health care and these companies are transitioning to become technology companies but when your entire, as you mentioned, the entire industry becomes about risk management, it's challenging sometimes to articulate things when you're not both on the same page. I was working with a financial partner years ago at a company I worked for and okay they're a financial institution, they're ready to sign off on this but before that they'd like to tour US East one first and validate that things are as we say they are. The answer is yeah me too, sadly, you folks have never bothered to invite me to tour an active AZ, maybe next year. It's challenging to I guess meet people where they are and speak the right language, the right peace for a long time. >> And that's why you see us have a financial services team in the first place, right? Because your financial services or health care or any of the other industries, they're very unique and they have a very specific language and so we've been very focused on making sure that we speak that language that we have an understanding of what that industry entails and what's important to that industry because as you know Amazon's a very customer obsessed organization and we want to work backwards from our customers and so it's been very important for us to actually speak that language and be able to translate that to our service teams to say hey this is important to financial services and this is why, here's the context for that. I think as we've continued to see more and more financial institutions take on that technology company mindset, I'm a technology company that happens to run a bank or happens to run an exchange company or happens to run an insurance business, it's actually been easier to talk to them about the services that we offer because now they have that mindset, they're moving more towards DevOps and moving more towards agile. And so it's been really easy to actually communicate hey, here are the appropriate changes you have to make, here's how you evolve governance, here's how you address security and compliance and the different levels of resiliency that actually improve from the standpoint of using these services. >> All right so Scott, back before I did this, I worked for some large technology suppliers and there were some groups on Wall Street that have huge IT budgets and IT staffs and actually were very cutting edge in what they were building, in what they were doing and very proud of their IT knowledge, and they were like, they have some of the smartest people in the industry and they spend a ton of money because they need an edge. Talking about transactions on stock markets, if I can translate milliseconds into millions of dollars if I can act faster. So you know, those companies, how are they moving along to do the I need to build it myself and differentiate myself because of my IT versus hey I can now have access to all the services out there because you're offering them with new ones every day, but geez how do I differentiate myself if everybody can use some of these same tools. >> So that's my background as well and so you go back that and milliseconds matter, milliseconds are money, right? When it comes to trading and actually building really bespoke applications on bespoke infrastructure. So I think what we're seeing from a transitional perspective is that you still have that mindset where hey we're really good at technology, we're really good at building applications. But now it's a new toolkit, you have access to a completely new toolkit. It's almost like The Matrix, you know that scene where Neo steps into that white room and hey says "I need this" and then the shelves just show up, that's kind how it is in the cloud, you actually have the ability to leverage the latest and greatest technologies at your fingertips when you want to build and I think that's something that's been a really compelling thing for financial institutions where you don't have to wait to get infrastructure provisioned for you. Before I worked for AWS, I worked for large financial institutions as well and when we had major projects that we had to do that sometimes had a regulatory implication, we were told by our infrastructure team hey that's going to be six months before we can actually get your dev environment built so you can actually begin to develop what you need. And actually we had to respond within about thirty days and so you had a mismatch there. With the cloud you can provision infrastructure easily and you have an access to an array of services that you can use to build immediately. And that means value, that means time to market, that means time to answering questions from customers, that means really a much faster time to answering questions from regulatory agencies and so we're seeing the adoption and the embrace of those services be very large and very significant. >> It's important to make sure that the guardrails are set appropriately, especially for a risk managed firm but once you get that in place correctly, it's an incredible boost of productivity and capability, as opposed to the old crappy way of doing governance of oh it used to take six weeks to get a server in so we're going to open a ticket now whenever you want to provision an instance and it only takes four, yay we're moving faster. It feels like there's very much a right way and a wrong way to start embracing cloud technology. >> Yeah and you know human nature is to take the run book you have today and try to apply it to tomorrow and that doesn't always work because you can use that run book and you'll get down to line four and suddenly line four doesn't exist anymore because of what's happened from a technological change perspective. Yeah I think that's why things like AWS control tower and security hub, which are those guardrails, those services that we announced recently that have gone GA. We announced them a couple of weeks ago at Reinforce in Boston. Those are really interesting to financial services customers because it really begins to help automate a lot of those compliance controls and provisioning those through control tower and then monitoring those through security hub and so you've seen us focus on how do we actually make that easier for customers to do. We know that risk management, we know that governance and controls is very important in financial services. We actually offer our customers a way to look from a country specific angle, add the different countries and the rule sets and the requirements that exist in those countries and how you map those to our controls and how you map those into your own controls and all the considerations that you have, we've got them on our public website. If you went to atlas.aws right now, that's our compliance center, you could actually pick the countries you're interested in and we'll have that mapping for you. So you'll see us continue to invest in things like that to make that much easier for customers to actually deploy quickly and to evolve those governance frameworks. >> And things like with Artifact, where it's just grab whatever compliance report you need, submit it and it's done without having to go through a laborious process. It's click button, receive compliance in some cases. >> If you're not familiar with it you can go into the AWS console and you've got Artifact right there and if you need a SOC report or you need some other type of artifact, you can just download it right there through the console, yeah it's very convenient. >> Yeah so Scott you know we talked about some of the GRC pieces in place, what are you seeing trends out there kind of globally, you know GDRP was something that was on everybody's mind over the last year or so. California has new regulations that are coming in place, so anything specific in your world or just the trends that you're seeing that might impact our environments-- >> I think that the biggest trends I would point to are data analytics, data analytics, data analytics, data analytics. And on top of that obviously machine learning. You know, data is the lifeblood of financial services, it's what makes everything go. And you can look at what's happening in this space where you've got companies like Bloomberg and Refinitiv who are making their data products available on AWS so you can get B-Pipe on AWS today, you can also get the elektron platform from Refintiv and then what people are trying to do in relation to hey I want to organize my data, I want to make it much easier to actually find value in data, both either from the standpoint of regulatory reporting, as you heard Steve talk about on stage today. FINRA is building a very large data repository that they have to from the standpoint of a regulatory perspective with CAT. Broker dealers have to actually feed the CAT and so they are also worried about here in the US, how do I actually organize my data, get all the elements I have to report to CAT together and actually do that in a very efficient way. So that's a big data analytic project. Things that are helping to make that much easier are leg formations, so we came up with leg formation last year and so you've got many financial institutions that are looking at how do you make building a data leg that much easier and then how do you layer analytics on top of that, whether it's using Amazon elastic map reduce or EMR to actually run regulatory reporting jobs or how do I begin to leverage machine learning to actually make my data analytics from a standpoint of trade surveillance or fraud detection that much more enriched and actually looking for those anomalies rather than just looking for a whole bunch of false positives. So data analytics I think is what I would point to as the biggest trend and how to actually make data more useful and how to get to data insights faster. >> On the one end it seems like there's absolutely a lot of potential in this, on the other it feels in many cases with large scale data analytics, it's we have all these tools for machine learning and the rest that we can wind up passing out to you but you need to figure out what to do with them, how to make it work and it's unclear outside of a few specific use cases and I think you've alluded to a couple of those how to take in a typical business that maybe doesn't have an enormous pile of data and start applying machine learning to it in a way that makes intelligent sense. That feels right now like a storytelling failure to some extent industry wide. We're starting to see some stories emerge but it still feels a little "Gold Rush"-y to some extent. >> Yeah I would say, and my advice would be don't try to boil the ocean or don't try to boil the data leg, meaning you want to do machine learning, you've got a great amount of earnestness about that but picture use case, really hone in on what you're trying to accomplish and work backwards from that. And we offer tooling that can be really helpful in that, you know with stage maker you can train your models and you can actually make data science available to a much broader array of people than just your data scientists. And so where we see people focusing first, is where it matters to their business. So if you've got a regulatory obligation to do surveillance or fraud detection, those are great use cases to start with. How do I enhance my existing surveillance or fraud detection, so that I'm not just wading again through a sea of false positives. How do I actually reduce that workload for a human analyst using machine learning. That's a one step up and then you can go from there, you can actually continue to work deeper into the use cases and say okay how do I treat those parameters, how do I actually look for different things that I'm used to with the rules based systems. You can also look at offering more value to customers so with next best offer with Amazon Personalize, we now have encapsulated the service that we use on the amazon.com retail site as a service that we offer to customers so you don't have to build all that tooling yourself, you can actually just consume Personalize as a service to help with those personalized recommendations for customers. >> Scott, really appreciate all the updates on your customers in the financial services industry, thanks so much for joining us. >> Happy to be here guys, thanks for having me. >> All right for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more here at AWS Summit in New York City 2019, thanks as always for watching theCube.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's the cube covering Cisco Live, U.S. 2019. Brought to you by Cisco and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to sunny San Diego. Lisa Martin with the Cube live at Cisco Live in the U.S. here. I'm here the next three days with Stu Miniman and Dave Volante. Gentlemen, great to see you. >> It is sunny. >> It is very sunny. >> Lisa, big 30th anniversary celebration here at Cisco live. Where were you in 1989, you don't have to answer that. >> But I thought about that this morning, I know exactly where I was. So the 30th year of them doing a customer partner event. Other 30 year anniversary notables this year, Tetris is 30, Seinfeld premiered 30 years ago. That's kind of scary when you remember exactly where you were. So we came from the keynote just a minute ago, not a lot of news here, but Stu, let's start with you. In terms of where Cisco is, you guys were in Cisco Live Barcelona just a few months ago, John and I covered Cisco DevNet about six weeks ago, lots of excitement around these waves of 5G, Wi-Fi 6, Compute architectures, your thoughts on Cisco where are they are today, where they are in their transition to becoming more software services? >> Yeah, so lately say a great place to start you. We've been watching the last two years that we've done theCube at their European and U.S. events, this transformation to become a software company. It's really interesting to see Chuck Robbins bring out this 30 year old box, and he's like, it's ribbon cables and multi-protocol routers and everything, and then most of the keynotes, most of the things that they're discussing, sure they had some boxes out there on display, I saw somebody on Twitter, they let all the cats out of the bag, 'cause they're all, Cat. 9000, Cat 6300, things like that, but it's software driven. The point they want to make is that cloud and software defined networking was going to destroy Cisco, well and here we are five or 10 years into some of these waves, and Cisco's still going strong. they have positioning in a lot of these environments. Cisco still does have a lot of hardware. When I look at how we track Cisco, it is more about the ports in the boxes than it is the software revenue, but they are climbing up the charts there, and they are being more software. They are showing up at all the cloud shows. When we were at Google Next, we talked to Cisco there. At AWS we talked to AppDynamics and many of the software pieces, and here in the DevNet zone, it's all about enabling developers which is at the core of so much of what's happening for that software transformation. So Cisco, making good measurable progress. Still a nice robust mix of hardware and software, and I personally, 30 years, I was actually at the 20 year reunion. I bumped into a friend of mine that we'd done a video with 10 years ago. We're comparing how we both have a little bit less hair than we did there, but amazing to think about the technologies we were looking at 10 years ago. Cloud was so early in some of these spaces, so a lot has changed in 10 years, and Cisco continually matriculating the ball down the field as they would say in the old analogy. >> And in terms of revenue, Dave, I was looking at their Q3 2019 report which was just a few weeks ago, sixth consecutive revenue growth quarter under Chuck Robbins, your thoughts on where they are from a revenue perspective? >> Well, Cisco's been doing very well. the Stock's been crushing it since 2011. After the downturn Cisco came out of the downturn as a stronger company. They're about almost 50 billion dollars in annual revenue. They've got a 250 billion dollar market cap, which as, Stu, you and I were talking about, it's almost a 5X revenue multiple, and that's software-like revenue multiples. Hardware companies don't typically get that. I mean unless you're like a pure storage, and your growing super fast. But so, this is a company with 60, almost 65% gross margins, it's got a 25% operating income. Again, that's like AWS. AWS is an incredibly profitable company. Just to put that into perspective, Oracle which is predominantly a software company even though it has some hardware, has operating margins in the low to mid 30s, and that's an extremely profitable company. Cisco's got a net of 10 billion dollars in cash on the balance sheet, actually more, but it's got some debts if you're talking about the net debt, and it's growing at 5 or 6% a year. For a 50 billion dollar company, that's quite impressive. So I think to answer your question Lisa, they're doin' quite well from a revenue standpoint. Chuck has done a great job with Wall Street. They obviously trust him. The stock's up. It's on a, I wouldn't say a rocket ship, but Cisco is a cashflow machine. Now where do they allocate that capital? Obviously they spend some on R and D and operations. they spent seven and a half billion dollars last year on stock buybacks, and dividends. So that's a big nut, and so Cisco's going to continue, in my opinion, to use it's funds to obviously fund R and D, but also do stock buybacks, dividends, prop up the stock. >> Stu: And acquisitions. >> And acquisitions. Is that a good move? Well, so balancing organic R and D with acquisitions is good. We talked about the Meraki acquisition earlier. Obviously Cisco's done a lot of growth through it's acquisition, but I would say this. Stock buybacks are a good idea when your stock is undervalued. Is Cisco undervalued, I don't know. Everything's up these days, hard to predict, but the concern that I have for companies like Cisco and Oracle, who do a lot of big buybacks is when the market sentiment flips, and shifts toward profit based companies like a Cisco or an Oracle, cashflow based companies, stocks tend to depress, and then the market sentiment shifts. So there might be some better buying opportunities ahead, but companies today who have a lot of cash, they have to do buybacks because they got to keep Wall Street happy. >> So as we look at these big waves of the explosion of 5G, 400 gigabit ethernet, GPUs, AI everywhere, one of the things that Chuck Robbins said this morning was that, and it made me think of the network as this common denominator in this changing architectural world we live in, hybrid multi-cloud. So going from their first show 30 years ago that was called Networker, what are your thoughts, Stu, we'll start with you, about where they're positioned with the network as really this common denominator in changing architectures, and the network that data that traverses it can be gleaned by organizations to extract insights, new value, new business models, where does Cisco sit in your opinion? >> Great question Lisa. So first of all we need to look at where does Cisco play, and where do they win? If you talk about the enterprise, switching and routing, they are dominant in that environment. We're going to be digging into some of the service providers. Service providers is not, Cisco is not nearly as dominant with service providers as they are in the enterprise. Then if you talk in the hyperscale players, they don't do as much gear, and that's where they're looking to have their software in there. Cisco wants to make sure that in this new hybrid multi-cloud world, wherever you live, there's going to be some piece of the stack that Cisco is part of. But there are opportunities for growth, but there are risks. Some of the traditional business, enterprises are not building as many data centers, and they're going to go to hosting providers, and therefore the network that most companies manage, most of what they're managing isn't under their purview. they don't touch it, they don't cable it, they don't put any of that together, and so Cisco needs to be extending who they work with, help with common interfaces across them. An area we spend a lot of time looking at is this multi-cloud management where Cisco is going up against some of their traditional partners. People like VMware and Microsoft used to just be the software pieces that ran on top of Cisco, now they're going for some of that same piece of the market because that is a control point, and Cisco needs to have leverage there, so can they be strong there? So it's interesting some of these waves that we have where Cisco plays, and where they will have a lot of competition. >> So guys, I think as Cisco moves from just a purely data center player to all these other opportunities, and they talk about the bridge to possible, I see it as Cisco's in a position to connect all the world's data sources. When you talk about multi-cloud, Cisco's got an opportunity and a challenge to convince the world that it's networks are higher performance, more cost effective, and more secure than everybody else, and you saw David Goeckeler today put up a slide, and he talked about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 things. He said, automated, secure, agile, cheaper, easier to manage, drives of business outcomes. Now easier to manage, cheaper, automated, those are all cost efficiency sort of plays. So Cisco is in a good position because it's such a huge piece of the market, you know two thirds of the market, and it's been able to maintain that. It doesn't have a monopoly quite, but it's been able to maintain that huge market share for a long time. >> And Dave, if I can, just a comment that number one is Cisco has not been known to have the simplest networks out there, nor in the past it was the best network I could do, I would buy Cisco only. Today, as you've said it many times Dave. Today's multi-cloud is the old multi-vendor. Cisco, sure they would do interops, and they would make sure to test it out, and they follow all the standards, and they drive all of the standards, but in today's world, if Cisco is not the dominant player in the market, will they win in those environments, and you look at something like 5G. Cisco's not the leader in 4G and LTE roll outs. they're working with the telecom providers, but they have a strong position with Meraki on the WiFi, so something like WiFi 6 and their strong connection between the WiFi 6 and the 5G to be able to make sure my indoor and outdoor can now work seamlessly, but there's areas where Cisco's trying to go into that have not necessarily been their stronghold in the past, and at the end of the day, it's frictionless and simplicity is what's driving a lot of these cloudways, and that's not Cisco traditionally. >> Well to that point, you know complexity means cash historically in this business, and so 25% of Cisco's revenue comes from professional services, and 60% from infrastructure, and then the balance is for other stuff. What's the point? The point is that Cisco is transitioning it's business to more of a subscription model. Now they talk about that they had huge growth in the subscriptions business, but they don't really tell you how much of their business is software. It's sort of opaque. You got to kind of dig through that, but it's clearly on a big upswing. So Cisco's got to transition it's business from, you know back in 1989 it was a lot of break/fix right, then it's become a lot more sort of consulting and other professional services. Now it's going more toward an as a service model, and maybe still some of the professional services to, how do I secure my network, how do I architect that, what about cloud, what about multi-cloud, a lot of opportunities there for services value add, but it has to transition. >> Speaking of security, wanted to kind of touch on that for a second, Dave. They just announced the intent to acquire Sentryo SAS, which is a cybersecurity company out of France for industrial control. Their cybersecurity's one of their fastest growing businesses. Is that an opportunity for Cisco to differentiate itself with respect to network security? >> Well, it's imperative. I mean their security business grew 21% last quarter which is what, triple, more than triple the overall company. What they set at around that acquisition, it made total sense to me, is that it used to be you would just invest in protecting the perimeter. That's where all the money went. Now with things like the Edge, and that's part of this acquisition, you've got to really secure the devices, and the applications that are out there, but also I think increasingly the big opportunity is how do we respond? So things like Stealthwatch, and other machine machine intelligence and analytics help organizations that are ultimately, we know they're going to get breached, but the question is how do they respond? >> Yep, excellent. Well guys, I'm looking forward to three days of wall to wall coverage with you, talking with Cisco folks, DevNet folks, customers, partners. It's going to be bright. I think we can guarantee that, but it's going to be good. >> Yeah, we should say that we're here in the DevNet zone, right? So stop by and see us. A lot of action here. there'll be a lot of takeovers, and we'll be coverin' it. >> Yes, the Sails Pavilion which feels just like that. All right guys, going to be a great week. I'm Lisa Martin for Stu Miniman and Dave Volante, you're watching the Cube Live from Cisco Live in sunny San Diego. Stick around, our guests lineup begins in just a minute. (upbeat music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE covering Dell Technologies World 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman. You're watching theCUBE live from day one of our coverage of Dell Technologies World 2019. There's about 15,000 people here, about 4,000 of Dell Technologies' partners, lots of folks. We're pleased to welcome to theCUBE, a couple of guests. We've got Melanie De Vigan, VP of Digital Workplace Portfolio from Atos. Melanie, it's great to have you on theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> And we have Justin Grimsley, Product Marketing from VMware. Justin, thank you for joining Stu and me as well. >> Yep, good to be here. >> So, workplace. One of the big themes from this morning's keynote, one of the themes that we've actually heard all day is, we talk about digital transformation, we talk about it at every event. It's essential. But, people are essential for digital transformation. And we have this workforce that has changed so much in the last few years. Some of the stats that were shown this morning, I think I remember seeing 81% of people now work outside of a traditional office. And about half the people, and I'm one of them, and I know Stu is too, work in at least three different places in a single week. So, in order to enable digital transformation to be real, it's got to start with the people. So Melanie, talk to us about transformation of the modern workplace, and what Atos is doing to facilitate that. >> Yeah, I think we've seen a big change in the market lately, where in the past successful organization would be focusing on employee productivity, but lately all of them realize the importance of employee engagement and employee experience. This morning, Pat mentioned the fact that ideally, engaged employees were going to drive success of the company. What is very striking is that if you compare that to the fact Gallup released a study last year saying that 87 percent of employees are not engaged. So you can see the huge gap, and how by focusing on this employee engagement, by transforming the employee experience, you are actually going to contribute to the business. And I think, really, when we talk about employee experience, we need to look at it from a wholistic point of view. So at Atos, we used to talk about "people, places, and platforms." "People" is all about the company culture, how people are engaged, what type of leadership in the company. It is about digital inclusion and accessibility. "Places," of course, is about from where you work. You mentioned the stat about mobility and from where people work. It's also about the building itself, and how the building is going to foster collaboration. And of course the "platform," it is about the IT, the technology that is going to enable all of that. What are the tools that you give to the end user, to the employee to be able to perform his jobs, so it starts with a device, it is about the collaboration solutions that are going to foster and help changing the mindset, changing the way people work. >> Alright. So, Justin, how does VMware tie into the picture that Melanie was painting there? >> Absolutely, I think this is why Atos, VMware, and Dell are such good partners, right? Our visions are so well-aligned to that employee experience that you guys were talking about. For us, the three major trends that we see are that users are no longer tied to the company network. They're not tethered to their cubicle with that Cat 5 cable. They're working shoulder-to-shoulder with their customers, or in the coffee shop, or at home. They're accessing all sorts of different types of applications now. It's not just legacy Windows apps, it's SaaS applications, it's virtual apps. And then the third trend is, they're using all sorts of different devices. And so, as companies are really looking to attract and retain talent, they want to enable employees to use the devices that they love, to be productive how they want to be productive. And so, many employees that we see now use two or three different devices. They might use their Dell laptop to be really productive and crank out work. They might use their iPhone or their Android device as well, and the applications that are available to them there. And so, we really see these three trends comin' together as a way for organizations to change how their employees work. And Atos and VMware and Dell are coming together to help enable that for our customers. >> So Justin, I don't know if it struck others, but for me, seeing Pat Gelsinger and Satya Nadella up on stage together was impressive, because Dell and Microsoft have a long, long relationship. VMware and Microsoft, it's an interesting relationship there, you know. End-user is something that we actually have seen Sanjay and his team with end-user computing growing out. But, can you comment on the news of the week, as well as the importance of bringing Microsoft into this discussion? >> Absolutely, you know, I think with everything that you said, the one thing I would say is that I think VMware compliments Microsoft very well. So, when we look at the end-user computing space, for years now, we've looked at how can we-- as Microsoft introduced Windows 10-- how can we bring that into the fold and extend a great experience on Windows 10. When you look at Office 365, I just did a session earlier and the number of hands that went up that are deploying Office 365, VMware has a great story around conditional access for those applications and providing a great experience. And so I think what we see now is this: customers are making different investments. Some customers are making investments in Microsoft 365, and others are making them in Workspace ONE, and so now, we can maximize those investments so they can get the most out of their end-point, and their end-user computing strategy. It's really a "one plus one equals three" scenario. And then we have services from companies like Atos, and Dell, and others that are coming around to help drive transformation across any of the devices that employees are using. Whether it is a Windows 10 PC, or whether it is a mobile device and accessing Office and other applications on it. So it was really powerful to see, I think, Satya, Pat, and Michael onstage this morning, coming together. >> Indeed, it was really, really impressive. I think just the fact that they were onstage were the most powerful message, for end-user computing at least. >> So Melanie, we look at this importance of employee engagement-- you mentioned, Justin, talent attraction and retention. What is Atos doing to actually-- there's got to be another-- maybe it's employee transform-- well, it's workplace transformation, really, right? But how are you kind of leading in that, to really drive business outcomes, like a business being able to generate more revenue, because "hey, we're enabling our workforce "and the way that they want to work." And as Justin said, with all the devices that they say, "let me use what I'm familiar with." >> Yeah, so one thing for us which is really key, is that, I mean, all this employee experience, it's a really nice story, but if we just talk about it, it remains a story, and we can't really do anything about it. I heard many people say this morning, "it's about the data." And this is what we're doing. What we're really looking at now is how do we make this employee experience tangible? So, it's all about moving toward a data-driven approach. So we are going to collect all the data. So again, we have this "people, places, and platforms," so we're going to collect the data from the devices. At Atos, we manage 4.5 million devices, so this is that much data matrix that we can collect to understand what's happening and what's going. It is the same with the feedback of the End-user, understanding how they work, like on a collaboration solution, understanding how people are working with each other, how they can change, so that at the end, we are going to be able to give some insight. We're going to be able to give some insight to the employee, so that again, he can understand what he can do differently. We're also going to give insight to the organization. It can be the IT department, it can be the HR department, it can be the facilities. It's all about bringing all of that together, so we give this wholistic vision and be able to drive the change, this is what we're targeting. >> Yeah, I love that. If you look at digital transformation, one of the most important things is, I need to have my business being driven by data, I have to have those feedback loops. What I'm curious is, what are some of those key measurements, how are you looking at these environments today when I have all this data, versus maybe how I would have done things in the past? >> Yeah, so, indeed, and this is where today, we are working away from this service-level agreement, the way we used to measure the IT services. People talk a lot about this watermelon effect, where it's all green outside, but red inside. So, all the KPI are green, meaning the server and infrastructure is working, but at the end, the end-user is not happy. So today, we are talking about experience-level agreements, so it's about defining metrics, which are really going to show how does the service perform, and what makes sense for the employee at the end. So more or less, we're moving away from the infrastructure, and we're getting closer to the business, taking measures that are really going to show what is going to impact the business. >> Just to build on that, I think what's one of the interesting things that we see now is that IT teams aren't just measured on cost. They're being measured more and more on employee experience. We're seeing companies do employee net promoter scores now. How can we elevate the employee experience from the day they start at the company, to the day they retire, right? And so, I think that's what Atos and others are really bringing together for their customers, and for our joint customers. >> And that's cultural impact at a business. Whether it's a business that's been around 35 years, as long as Dell has, or one that's maybe younger. That cultural change is hard. We talk about that at every event, with every company, because, especially for veteran employees, or more seasoned, who are used to certain ways of doing business, that company has to transform culturally as well, for their digital transformation to enable them to become the leaders that they want. So I'm hearing that one of the things that Atos is enabling is that cultural transformation. It's not just about having new KPIs and changing SLAs, it's driving change for entire business units to impact that whole company. >> Yeah, and to be able to do that-- So we still want to be data-driven, so we're going to get this KPI, but with KPIs, there is no "one size fits all." There is not one KPI that we're going to apply to all our customers. It is a war that we're doing with the customer to understand what is key for them. An example, which is a bit... I don't know if it's funny or interesting, is we have this customer for whom we have these tech bars, you know, the walk-in bar where an end-user can go and get coaching, support, help from a technician. And so, we had this customer where the tech bars were very successful, so there were more and more people going there. And because there were more and more people, they started queuing, and we said, "Okay, there's an issue. "we don't want people to be queuing." So we went into a discussion with the customer. At the beginning, everybody's idea was, "Okay, let's put more people behind the desk, "so they can help." And when we had this discussion with the customer, it turned out it was not a good solution, because it was a company with a very strong family culture, very centered about the relationship and the network, and these tech bars, they were meant to be a place where people can go and chat with each other, and share about what's going on. So, instead of putting more people behind the desk, we talked about adding coffee and cookies at the desk so people are willing to go. I mean, this is just an example, but it's just to say, it's not about measuring how long someone is going to wait at the desk, it's about understanding what is important for this customer, and then we can define with them the key matrix that we need to follow. >> That's excellent. And a tech bar, that's a bar I can get behind. (laughing) Melanie, Justin, thank you so much for joining Stu and me on theCUBE this afternoon, we appreciate your time and it's always exciting to hear how the employee experience is so pivotal and critical to digital transformation. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you very much. >> Oh, our pleasure. We're Stu Miniman, I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching us live in Las Vegas. Day one of theCUBE's coverage of Dell Technology World's 2019. Thanks for watching. (electronic techno music)

(funky music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Peter Burress, and welcome to another CUBE conversation from our beautiful studios in wonderful Palo Alto, California. Enterprises have always struggled with how they're going to add more end points into their networks. More users, more devices, more machines, they need better speeds, lower latencies, greater security. How are they going to do it? Well, we've got a new set of standards coming along within the wifi world as well within the cellular world, to provide those greater densities, lower latencies, higher performance. Wifi Six is what we talk about within kind of the extension of the 802.11 family of protocols, but Wifi Six, like every other significant transformation has required that enterprises think differently about certain attributes of networking. So to have that conversation, we got Sachin Gupta who's a senior vice president of Cisco here, Sachin, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks Peter, very excited to be here. >> Alright, look, so I'm a CIO, and I am working with my team to incorporate these new technologies that are going to improve the quality of my endpoint services, and I'm looking at Wifi Six. What am I mainly worried about as I think about adopting these new technologies? >> So just before we just get into adopting of the new technologies, why are you going after Wi-Fi 6, like what's the reason for the CIO? And quite simply it's, all of the new use cases that are coming on, like everything, all the IoT endpoints have to connect securely, all the bandwidth hungry end users, and the immersive experiences I'm looking to enable, it could be augmented reality, it could be virtual reality, all those are driving a need for me to rethink access, and rethink the network overall. And Wi-fi 6 is one critical component of that. Wi-fi 6 promises four times the capacity, lower latency, a greater range, so the things you talked about in your set-up. So it's a wonderful technology to start addressing some of those problems, but in of it's own it's not sufficient. You got to go well beyond the standard in order to address the CIO problem. >> Okay, so specifically, so think about some of the adoption problems. I got the use cases nailed down, how am I thinking about where things are going to go? Am I going to have to lay out the network differently? What kinds of practical things do I have to start thinking about? >> Well first of all, you have to think about why are you moving, where are you moving with Wi-fi 6. So again, capacity, lower latency, better battery life, the new use cases it enables. After that you need to make sure that whatever you're going to connect, will interoperate. Right? So look, sometimes a standard comes out and it can take a few years before the endpoints and the infrastructure actually get the maximum capability from the new standard. And so we worked proactively with the likes of Samsung, with the likes of Intel, to make sure those endpoints, which any of the new Samsung Galaxy S10, already supports Wi-fi 6. Interaccess points work together to give you the best experience possible. So that's sort of step one. But there's many other things we need to think through. We're also thinking about the problem of just onboarding onto Wi-fi. You know the experience to onboard onto cellular, right? >> Oh, sure. >> You get off airplane mode >> And it works. >> It just works, you're on. What's the experience like on Wifi? >> Well it's certainly not just getting a message from my local carrier that I'm now roaming. You got to get on, yeah it's a lot more involved, you got to authenticate, exactly. >> Give me your phone number, give me your room number, I'll text you something, get on to the It's cumbersome, okay? And we want to make Wifi onboarding to something we call open roaming. Open roaming is a Cisco project, it's a consortium we've set up. That takes all the venue providers and the identity providers, brings them together. So that when you go round, and you roam with Wifi, you onboard the network just like you onboard with cellular. >> So get essentially the same experience you get in the cellular world. >> Same experience. It makes it easy for you to get connected. So those are some of the basic things, but you got to go beyond that then. Now you have to worry about, okay, what do those endpoints require, alright? Well, first of all you need to recognize what the endpoint is. Is this a light bulb, or is it a heart-rate monitor, is it a tablet of some sort, what is actually connecting? So for device recognition, and to understand the experience you're getting, I need virtual analytics. And that's something the infrastructure now needs to provide. So we for the first time now, we've embedded our own ACIG, our own silicon inside the access point. So that we can get visibility from layer one to seven. And now we can pinpoint, what is the device, is it behaving in a compliant way, and how do I deliver the right experience for it. So these are some of things to think about as you move, it's a yes I want Wi-fi 6, but again tying in back to the problem you're looking to solve, how does the entire solution address your problem. >> Alright so we've identified some of the issues that have to be addressed here, and Wifi Six is here. You said the Galaxy S10 already supports it. >> Our access points are shipping, yes. >> So talk to me about the role out of some of these new technologies, these new devices from Cisco, and how customers are going to have to think a little bit differently as they start to plan out their new network structure. >> That's a great question. So I think it's not about hey, I'm just going to roll out new AP's. You should really rethink networking. What am I trying to provide here? And that's why we came out with an architectural approach across the board which is intent based networking. And what we're really talking about there is how do you automate all of the things that IT needs to do, to deliver the security and experience for all of those users and things. How do you get the data, the power of data, the analytics out? And how do you deliver security and policy. >> But it's in the context of the application and the work that's being performed. >> Yes, it's the users and devices and the applications and data. What are you trying to achieve? That's what intent based networking is all about. And so, I love how your asking the question because if you think about the wireless AP's, we only talk about the top already with the endpoint, right? But then I think about the switching architecture, are you segmenting all of that traffic? Is it fully automated? Do you have an identity and policy engine? Can I take the location data that's coming out? Cause remember these APs now are multilingual. They speak BLE, they speak Zigbee and Thread, they're also Wi-fi 6. So how do I take the location data and deliver new business outcomes? How can I tell you that the wheelchair has left the premises? How can I tell you how many people walked in your store, verus walked outside it? How do I get you better asset utilization? Those outcomes are provided at the software step at the top. So you should really be thinking about what am I trying to do for my business, and what architectural approach allows me to deliver those outcomes that I'm looking for. And yes, Wi-fi 6 APs are one critical component there, but you should think about the entire solution though. >> So we got new access points that are Wifi Six enabled ready to go, how far back does this change go into the network? >> So the Wi-fi 6 APs, the beauty of these Wi-fi standards is they're backward compatible. So you can take all kinds of older endpoints, multiple generations, and get them to work in a Wi-fi 6 new environment. So that's nice because it's not a rip and replace of all your clients, when you put the new APs in, they're backward compatible, that's always the case. And a lot of the new software stack and the technology that I talked about with intent based networking, works with at least the two previous generations as well. So if you want some of that telemetry and analytics and security, you can start getting that with some of the APs you may already have, and then when you bring in Wi-fi 6, it's sort of purpose built for that architecture. >> Alright, so we've talked a lot about the use cases of the business side, let's spend a little bit of time describing the fact that you've got the sidecar co processor for analytics inside the APs. How is that going to change the work of IT, the work of network management and administration and security? >> That's a great one So, I'll give you one example of what that does. Today, if you want to go troubleshoot a wireless issue, you're literally walking around with a sensor acting like a client to go figure out what the behavior is, what's going on, how do I figure out what the interference is, why is the experience bad, right? Can take you hours, weeks, days, it's very costly. These new APs, and with our solution with W-fi 6, first of all, I get data with my relationship with Apple from the endpoint. So I get the view from a real client. Then on the access point itself, with that co processor, I can get layer one to seven data and packet captures to see did you fail during authentication, was there some sort of RF issue that's happening, what exactly is happening that's interfering with what's going on? Or, maybe the problem is not even there, it's somewhere else in the network. And the beauty of our Cisco DNA Center solution, which is our controller in intent based networking, is we see end to end. We see the entire network and we can help you pinpoint where that issue is and save a whole bunch of money you'd spend troubleshooting, to deliver the right experience. >> But it sounds as though some of the, historically, some of the analytics associated with network administration was very focused on the device. Intent based network is intended to focus on the application and service that's being provided, but the analytics didn't follow. So know what you're saying is we're going to follow the analytics so that the applications, the services become primary citizens within the network. >> That's exactly right So you have to be able to look at the client holistic view, the application performance holistic view, and the performance of each network element, and that's what the co processor that we talked about helps. Now another thing we did is, that portfolio now, on the enterprise side, we now run the same operating system that also helps simplify for IT. The entire access network with the Catalyst 9000 series, the new access points are called the Catalyst 9100, and we're making it part of one brand and one family, because it's one OS, one programmable architecture, one operational environment if you will, that simplifies the job of IT significantly as well, and then we're also introducing obviously with Wifi Six, our cloud managed Meraki access points to support those deployments as well. >> Alright so one more question on this and then I want to talk about something else in a second. But the beauty, or the essential feature of networking has to be a degree of openness. So new access points can talk to each other, new devices can talk to each other, et cetera. These are new technologies as you said they're going to roll out and diffuse, hopefully very very rapidly, but there will be both enterprise, but also some other network supplier issues. How is Cisco ensuring that your leadership and your thought leadership but also your engineering leadership gets into those other organizations at an appropriate rate so this entire industry can adopt and change and introduce these new kinds of capabilities. >> So I talked about that new family of the Catalyst 9000 series. Let me start there. So all the protocols we support are open interoperable so you can have my switch somebody else's AP, somebody else's AP my switch, all those combinations work. It supports net config open API's programmable models. We expose those through a Cisco dev net. So we have the largest developer community on top of sort of a networking infrastructure where you can write applications that can automate or can get data >> Or services? >> Or deploy services in a very open way. And then we do the same thing at our controller layer. On Cisco DNA Center, fully open so you can have partners ecosystem delivering services and applications on top of the network, on top of that controller. So we think about openness from every angle, and that's how you have to be in a networking world, right? I mean you need to be able to connect to anything. >> Right. Every significant change in networking, someone always presumed it was going to lead to various behavior by the leader to try to somehow close it down. You're saying that's not what's happening here. We're trying to dramatically extend the benefits and capabilities of networking because those enterprises need new use cases. >> But we are saying though, that if you buy that campus architecture, access architecture through Cisco, you're going to get a degree of consistency and automation and analytics and security that's unmatched. So you might as well go, but if you want to compose that with different components, that's absolutely doable. >> Alright, so one last question. The historical norm has been I get a cell service and I get Wifi. Cell had certain positive benefits, and Wifi had other positive benefits. We're talking about Wifi Six, but also we got to talk about 5G. How are the two of them going to work together in your estimation? >> Look, from a wireless standpoint, the problems that you're trying to solve are the same, right? I need more capacity, I need lower latency, more deterministic, better battery life, they're the same. So you need to solve those when you're in an SP outdoor ubiquitous environment, or whether your sort of indoor, where you have predominantly Wifi and that's where most of your traffic flows. So Wifi Six and 5G, it's a beautiful thing that they're both trying to allow you to be in this wireless first, cloud driven world, where most of your apps and data sit in the cloud, and where your experience is really optimized by the data and telemetry that's coming out of the infrastructure. So for me, it's not an or question, it's Wifi Six and 5G that allow you to start solving that problem. >> So everything just as we have today just more, better, faster, lower power. >> Yes, can I add one more thing? >> Of course! >> I just kind of need to do this, okay? So look, when you think about the wireless infrastructure and chaining that out, I talked about how it effects the rest of the network, right? So you do need to think about upgrading your switching infrastructure, we call it being wired for wireless, okay? So with that, we also introduced a new product called the Catalyst 9600. That's a modular core switch, so you're like why are you bringing this up Sasha? >> No, I know why you're bringing it up. >> After 20 years, we are providing the next generation of the Cat 6k, Cat 6k is iconic, it's the foundation of tens of thousands of mission critical networks in the world. This is next-gen, it's more than 10x the capacity, if you have all these endpoints and access points that have more capacity, you need to think about a switch that's bigger factor. >> Scales! >> But fits into intent based networking fully programmable the same way. Just want to do a shout-out for, look we've talked about every aspect of this. APs, switches, identity, everything. >> We're offering, Cisco is offering and the enterprises are going to adopt new classes of network technology at the endpoints, faster, better, but that's going to lead to new use cases, new services, and it's just going to drive that much more complexity and routing and switching and patching thorough the network, you got to be able to scale. >> Right, you have to think about all the components. >> Absolutely. Sachin Gupta is the senior vice president of Cisco, we've been talking about how to think through Wifi Six upgrades. Thank you very much for being on the CUBE. >> Thank you, Peter. >> And once again I'm Peter Burress, and this has been a CUBE conversation. Until next time. (funky music)