>> (Announcer) Live from San Jose, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE covering DataWorks Summit 2017, brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Hi everybody, this is George Gilbert, Big Data and Analytics Analyst with Wikibon. We are wrapping up our show on theCUBE today at DataWorks 2017 in San Jose. It has been a very interesting day, and we have a special guest to help us do a survey of the wrap-up, George Chow from Simba. We used to call him Chief Technology Officer, now he's Technology Fellow, but when we was explaining the different in titles to me, I thought he said Technology Felon. (George Chow laughs) But he's since corrected me. >> Yes, very much so >> So George and I have been, we've been looking at both Spark Summit last week and DataWorks this week. What are some of the big advances that really caught your attention? >> What's caught my attention actually is how much manufacturing has really, I think, caught into the streaming data. I think last week was very notable that both Volkswagon and Audi actually had case studies for how they're using streaming data. And I think just before the break now, there was also a similar session from Ford, showcasing what they are doing around streaming data. >> And are they using the streaming analytics capabilities for autonomous driving, or is it other telemetry that they're analyzing? >> The, what is it, I think the Volkswagon study was production, because I still have to review the notes, but the one for Audi was actually quite interesting because it was for managing paint defect. >> (George Gilbert) For paint-- >> Paint defect. >> (George Gilbert) Oh. >> So what they were doing, they were essentially recording the environmental condition that they were painting the cars in, basically the entire pipeline-- >> To predict when there would be imperfections. >> (George Chow) Yes. >> Because paint is an extremely high-value sort of step in the assembly process. >> Yes, what they are trying to do is to essentially make a connection between downstream defect, like future defect, and somewhat trying to pinpoint the causes upstream. So the idea is that if they record all the environmental conditions early on, they could turn around and hopefully figure it out later on. >> Okay, this sounds really, really concrete. So what are some of the surprising environmental variables that they're tracking, and then what's the technology that they're using to build model and then anticipate if there's a problem? >> I think the surprising finding they said were actually, I think it was a humidity or fan speed, if I recall, at the time when the paint was being applied, because essentially, paint has to be... Paint is very sensitive to the condition that is being applied to the body. So my recollection is that one of the finding was that it was a narrow window during which the paint were, like, ideal, in terms of having the least amount of defect. >> So, had they built a digital twin style model, where it's like a digital replica of some aspects of the car, or was it more of a predictive model that had telemetry coming at it, and when it's an outside a certain bounds they know they're going to have defects downstream? >> I think they're still working on the predictive model, or actually the model is still being built, because they are essentially trying to build that model to figure out how they should be tuning the production pipeline. >> Got it, so this is sort of still in the development phase? >> (George Chow) Yeah, yeah >> And can you tell us, did they talk about the technologies that they're using? >> I remember the... It's a little hazy now because after a couple weeks of conference, so I don't remember the specifics because I was counting on the recordings to come out in a couples weeks' time. So I'll definitely share that. It's a case study to keep an eye on. >> So tell us, were there other ones where this use of real-time or near real-time data had some applications that we couldn't do before because we now can do things with very low latency? >> I think that's the one that I was looking forward to with Ford. That was the session just earlier, I think about an hour ago. The session actually consisted of a demo that was being done live, you know. It was being streamed to us where they were showcasing the data that was coming off a car that's been rigged up. >> So what data were they tracking and what were they trying to anticipate here? >> They didn't give enough detail, but it was basically data coming off of the CAN bus of the car, so if anybody is familiar with the-- >> Oh that's right, you're a car guru, and you and I compare, well our latest favorite is the Porche Macan >> Yes, yes. >> SUV, okay. >> But yeah, they were looking at streaming the performance data of the car as well as the location data. >> Okay, and... Oh, this sounds more like a test case, like can we get telemetry data that might be good for insurance or for... >> Well they've built out the system enough using the Lambda Architecture with Kafka, so they were actually consuming the data in real-time, and the demo was actually exactly seeing the data being ingested and being acted on. So in the case they were doing a simplistic visualization of just placing the car on the Google Map so you can basically follow the car around. >> Okay so, what was the technical components in the car, and then, how much data were they sending to some, or where was the data being sent to, or how much of the data? >> The data was actually sent, streamed, all the way into Ford's own data centers. So they were using NiFi with all the right proxy-- >> (George Gilbert) NiFi being from Hortonworks there. >> Yeah, yeah >> The Hortonworks data flow, okay >> Yeah, with all the appropriate proxys and firewall to bring it all the way into a secure environment. >> Wow >> So it was quite impressive from the point of view of, it was life data coming off of the 4G modem, well actually being uploaded through the 4G modem in the car. >> Wow, okay, did they say how much compute and storage they needed in the device, in this case the car? >> I think they were using a very lightweight platform. They were streaming apparently from the Raspberry Pi. >> (George Gilbert) Oh, interesting. >> But they were very guarded about what was inside the data center because, you know, for competitive reasons, they couldn't share much about how big or how large a scale they could operate at. >> Okay, so Simba has been doing ODBC and JDBC drivers to standard APIs, to databases for a long time. That was all about, that was an era where either it was interactive or batch. So, how is streaming, sort of big picture, going to change the way applications are built? >> Well, one way to think about streaming is that if you look at many of these APIs, into these systems, like Spark is a good example, where they're trying to harmonize streaming and batch, or rather, to take away the need to deal with it as a streaming system as opposed to a batch system, because it's obviously much easier to think about and reason about your system when it is traditional, like in the traditional batch model. So, the way that I see it also happening is that streaming systems will, you could say will adapt, will actually become easier to build, and everyone is trying to make it easier to build, so that you don't have to think about and reason about it as a streaming system. >> Okay, so this is really important. But they have to make a trade-off if they do it that way. So there's the desire for leveraging skill sets, which were all batch-oriented, and then, presumably SQL, which is a data manipulation everyone's comfortable with, but then, if you're doing it batch-oriented, you have a portion of time where you're not sure you have the final answer. And I assume if you were in a streaming-first solution, you would explicitly know whether you have all the data or don't, as opposed to late arriving stuff, that might come later. >> Yes, but what I'm referring to is actually the programming model. All I'm saying is that more and more people will want streaming applications, but more and more people need to develop it quickly, without having to build it in a very specialized fashion. So when you look at, let's say the example of Spark, when they focus on structured streaming, the whole idea is to make it possible for you to develop the app without having to write it from scratch. And the comment about SQL is actually exactly on point, because the idea is that you want to work with the data, you can say, not mindful, not with a lot of work to account for the fact that it is actually streaming data that could arrive out of order even, so the whole idea is that if you can build applications in a more consistent way, irrespective whether it's batch or streaming, you're better off. >> So, last week even though we didn't have a major release of Spark, we had like a point release, or a discussion about the 2.2 release, and that's of course very relevant for our big data ecosystem since Spark has become the compute engine for it. Explain the significance where the reaction time, the latency for Spark, went down from several hundred milliseconds to one millisecond or below. What are the implications for the programming model and for the applications you can build with it. >> Actually, hitting that new threshold, the millisecond, is actually a very important milestone because when you look at a typical scenario, let's say with AdTech where you're serving ads, you really only have, maybe, on the order about 100 or maybe 200 millisecond max to actually turn around. >> And that max includes a bunch of things, not just the calculation. >> Yeah, and that, let's say 100 milliseconds, includes transfer time, which means that in your real budget, you only have allowances for maybe, under 10 to 20 milliseconds to compute and do any work. So being able to actually have a system that delivers millisecond-level performance actually gives you ability to use Spark right now in that scenario. >> Okay, so in other words, now they can claim, even if it's not per event processing, they can claim that they can react so fast that it's as good as per event processing, is that fair to say? >> Yes, yes that's very fair. >> Okay, that's significant. So, what type... How would you see applications changing? We've only got another minute or two, but how do you see applications changing now that, Spark has been designed for people that have traditional, batch-oriented skills, but who can now learn how to do streaming, real-time applications without learning anything really new. How will that change what we see next year? >> Well I think we should be careful to not pigeonhole Spark as something built for batch, because I think the idea is that, you could say, the originators, of Spark know that it's all about the ease of development, and it's the ease of reasoning about your system. It's not the fact that the technology is built for batch, so the fact that you could use your knowledge and experience and an API that actually is familiar, should leverage it for something that you can build for streaming. That's the power, you could say. That's the strength of what the Spark project has taken on. >> Okay, we're going to have to end it on that note. There's so much more to go through. George, you will be back as a favorite guest on the show. There will be many more interviews to come. >> Thank you. >> With that, this is George Gilbert. We are DataWorks 2017 in San Jose. We had a great day today. We learned a lot from Rob Bearden and Rob Thomas up front about the IBM deal. We had Scott Gnau, CTO of Hortonworks on several times, and we've come away with an appreciation for a partnership now between IBM and Hortonworks that can take the two of them into a set of use cases that neither one on its own could really handle before. So today was a significant day. Tune in tomorrow, we have another great set of guests. Keynotes start at nine, and our guests will be on starting at 11. So with that, this is George Gilbert, signing out. Have a good night. (energetic, echoing chord and drum beat)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to two cubes. Live coverage in San Francisco, California for VM World 2019. I'm John Ferrier, Postal Cuba David Lattin, My Coast, Dave. 10 years covering the BM World Paul Maritz laid out the stack early on. We saw that and watch it go through Its motions now >> remain from the marketing people got a hold of >> that mainframe turned into cloud Now hybrid cloud seven years after we first started about 2012 has been great Our next guest, Paul Falsone, S V. P and general manager of the Cloud Native APS. This is a business unit within VM where that is going to the next level. This is the Act three is Jerry Chen said any of you I talked earlier for VM wears a company. I won't say moving up the staff because there is no stack. It's cloud, right? So its applications on top of operating infrastructure Dev ops going enterprise scale is about developers building APS operating them in scale. This is a big focus of what you're doing. >> It is a dead end of the day. One of my close friend of mine, who's in front of customers all the time, reminds our team constantly that our customers applications matter of the most cause. That's what they used to get in front of their customers with the Dillman teams and the tools they're building the user. Japs come second cause that's what supports the abs. And then the infrastructure comes third zone away. There is that stacks it, but never forget you were at the bottom of the pecking order, if you will, when it comes to ultimately bringing full customer value to our company, our customers, businesses. >> And it's one of the things we've been looking back at our 10 years covering VM where I think you're 13 15 of'em world is that the virtual ization of all very quickly around really optimizing server virtualization really kind of change. The game of one kind of knows that our knows the history there, but it did it without any code changes, too, APs and I think that was a very innovative thing. Now we looking containers and what Kubernetes is bringing to the table. You're starting to get some clear visibility into what's happening and what's possible. Could >> you >> share your vision on what that visibility is that you guys are eyeing for the marketplace in four of'em, where, >> sure, the APP development methodologies are changing, changing more today than they have in the last 20 years. We're seeing ah lot of new concepts and approaches that right now really only accessible to a small percentage of application developers worldwide. We want to try to bring those application development methodologies, practices tools to the mainstream so we can. We can touch the 13 or $14 million.1,000,000 enterprise developers around the world and help the CEOs in their line of business counterparts at our customers get a CZ much productivity out of their development teams as possible. At the end of the day, those APS we're gonna power the next decade of those organizations success or failures with their customers, and so that's becoming a real competitive asset. I've had a number of customer discussions here this week where the primary theme is how me help my developers move faster at enterprise scale, but in a regulated environment in an environment where compliance is is front center >> to big things going on in your world that we covered extensively, honestly, pretty impactful to the Vienna, where portfolio one as open source and hefty oh, acquisition half a billion dollars almost a year ago, about a year left in less than a year, probably was that we close in December last year. So yes, ovary. Just recently we know those guys all people. I mean, I've been covering that for a while, and then I'll see the pivotal acquisition. Just announced a drink from the fire hose. There be doing tons of press briefings, those to impact points, kind of leaving a mark. >> So we've been we've been building up to this. I joined AA Drink them were in 2012 through the Sierra acquisition, but I moved into this role about just about three years ago, and one of the things that we identified early on was, ah, close partnership with Pivotal was going to be essential inside of the Del Technologies umbrella for us to exist in thrive together. And so that's where the idea for P Cass was born. So the combination of V. M. R. R and D with pivotal RND focused on delivering our first community service to our enterprise. Customers we brought helped you in last year. Once they saw what we were doing and thought about the possibility of what would happen if we actually took some of the concepts of communities and p ks and embed them into V sphere, That was, I think, the real ah ha moment for for us and the happier team coming together in the power of what that could enable. But all along the way, we always believed that that was just covering the infrastructure side of the equation. You still needed to get through the making the APP developers productive and efficient in this new infrastructure world and so on to be able to do so on any cloud. And that's where the pivotal piece finally came together last just last month. July Pivotal put out a lot of information in the market around how they're evolving their portfolio to be very cool, bernetti centric, moving forward. And that was a big part about getting all the pieces lined up so that the M word could deliver what we announced this week. The in the town's a portfolio with the component tree for building running in managing modern applications on any club, >> we've kind of come full circle here, predates, and I Sarah, But you guys talking about the stack? Yeah. Paul Moretz. I used to have the whole stack. Ed actually applications up here with Simba. Spring sources around. Exactly. And then you had these when I used to call the misfit toys. Have you had some assets in the M. C as coming in Vienna, where Paul Maritz, Joe Tucci decided, create pivotal as the The platform developed next generation applications. Now it's all come full circle there. So my question is related to that stack and particularly the death part of that stack. This audience is not Deb's not, but increasingly, you've gotta attract that audience. So what's what's your thoughts there? And so >> I think pivotals done a very nice job over the years through the Con Foundry Foundation. The work they've done there through the spring community Spring is at this stage is is arguably the most popular modern Java development environment on the planet. So, you know, we're seeing a tremendous amount of leverage of that of that framework and so between the events of pimples is actively involved in Leeds and their ability to help customers, um teach their enterprise developers how to get the most out of this modern tool kit. We think that there is some wonderful ingredients to a recipe to really scale this thing up in a big way. We way. I also believe that Veum we're still has a lot to learn about what it means to best support enterprise developers and their organizations. And so we are quite a bit in learning mode right now. We're gonna take a lot of lessons from the pivotal team as we as we move forward towards the close and learn a lot more about the team in the culture and their customer engagements. But one of the things I think is is front and center to what pivotal has for customers today is their transformation Service's customers. You've got different groups inside a customer summer looking to build the newest applications. Some of them are just trying to get more operational efficiency out of what they have today. Some of these customers have 12,000 applications in their environments. Um, pivotal has ah set of service is that come in and they help them take their existing monolithic applications and just modernize key components of them so they can operate them more efficiently and reclaim a lot of resources to go do other things. That, I think is probably the lowest hanging fruit for enterprise organizations today. And I'm very, very excited about the service is that pimple has to make available the customers on that front. >> Assad and Jerry Chen, earlier than the other set I was mentioning earlier is a VC now, Greylock, big time to your one. We see former VM Where, uh, guy from 22,003. He also worked on cloud foundries in sight. We ask about the white spaces where starts to thrive in one of the transit is kind of pointing to was have some cummings going public. Some are being bought at sizable numbers, but we rift on. The idea of monitoring was a boring category right now. Observe ability, which is just be monitoring 2.0, you got I pose. You got acquisitions. I mean, major action happening in this observe ability space. I bring this up because that's an area you think, Oh, it's a white space Data opportunities for companies to build service is really points to this cloud. 2.0 application Renaissance And I want to get your thoughts on that environment. What needs to be in place to make that happen? Honestly, pivotals keep for you guys. I get that on Vienna. Where side, but for the ecosystem and for the marketplace, people trying to make careers and or do things What is that cloud 2.0, complexity that need to be abstracted away or >> so The Pepto team had a great Craig and Joe had this great, uh, one liner on kubernetes is all about where the people structure meets the infrastructure. When you think about that, our enterprise organizations have thousands if not tens of thousands of developers all trying to do similar. But a lot of cases different things at the same time, across lots of different cloud infrastructures. On the infrastructure team side, you've got private cloud, you've got hybrid cloud. You've got public cloud environments that you have to get your arms around, monitor, manage, secure and get visibility into. We believe that Carini sits at that perfect layer between the two domains on. This is a big part of why we developed Tom's a mission control. It's just that that perfect layer between the two domains, too, access the company's later and give you full visibility into what all of your developers were doing on every piece of your infrastructure. And we also think that's gonna be a very interesting place for third parties to plug into to gain access to all of the community's clusters that we're helping. Our customers managed across their app landscape to do very interesting things. And so we're really excited about the ecosystem that that project will open up. >> You think this opportunity to start ups in there? >> I do. I do. I think there's a ton of other I mean, think about it just really basic math. Ah, VM based application. When it gets containerized, it has just on the compute side alone. Never mind the networking in the storage site. There are 10 times as many moving parts. A typical containerized EPA's 10 times as many moving parts as avian bay Step. If you think about that applied to the networking layer, you think about that applied to the storage layer, the security layer. You've got 10 times as many points to secure. Now, how do you get your head around that level of complexity As a an operations person, you can't do it. Humans can't do it anywhere. You can't write down your actions. Control this on a pad of paper and know what's what's accessing what anymore, >> Dave. One more question, if I may, on the on the VM container thing, there's a debate or are architectural kind of conversation, and customers are having around when to do containers in three days on bare metal or with V EMS. How do you guys talk to that house? The >> steam going because that was my question. So there was a snarky tweets yesterday. I want to get your reaction to it. And the tweet was during yesterday's keynote. I thought we we launched pivotal so that we didn't have to run containers on V EMS. Now the reality to your point is that people are running containers on bare metal. They're running him on vehement the EMS. I don't have any data, but I wonder if you could comment on that >> so way Probably have a couple of snarky comments of our own on this three share one of the things that put up on stage. Yes, I'll start at the kind of a little little. And I worked my way up at the base layer. The testing we're doing with Project Pacific, which is something we announced this week, which is effectively bringing kubernetes into the heart of the sphere. We're actually using combinations to make the sphere better. We're also going to expose communities to our customers through V sphere, just like we exposed the EMS today. This is a pretty exciting project for the for the company in our early testing of this project, based on the advanced scheduling capabilities of the SX hyper visor take advantage of modern hardware. We're seeing an 8% better performance in a certain test sweet versus what you'd see on bare metal so are ready at the early stages. We're seeing some benefits now take that a step further. The big public college for writers out there if you look at service is like G K on Google. If you look at a ks, uh, recast on Amazon, a cast on his door, every single one of their community service is is run against a virtualized environment, not on a bare metal environment. Why is that? Well, because their customers are using containers in VM, side by side, the flexibility you get out of that virtualization layer. Whether you're a big public cloud provider or your ah smaller enterprise shop running your own data centers, the benefits are proportionate, rather equal on dso >> the narratives off a little bit. What you're saying. What I hear you saying is people use virtualization for a lot of efficiency and scale reasons that's independent of what happens with bearnaise decisions. So if you decide you want to run Cubans on bare metal, go >> to go to town. We think >> if you want to do that, >> you want to do that. But we don't. We actually see a lot of customers who have started down that path. When they go to get to that operational stage, they're realizing they're now dealing with firm where again, they're dealing with Nick drivers again. They're dealing with stuff, and they can easily take that and turn it over to their ops team that's already managing a huge virtualized state and operated with the same tool. >> That's a really a layer thing around round scale. You do the virtual ization for Ryan reasons, and then cos sits on top of it for a whole another reason. >> And the I'd say its operations scale these operations teams need to, you know, just look at the number of announcements we made this week. For an ops team to get their head around all of these new technologies simultaneously is impossible to bring them in one new capability of time into the thing that they're already operating for. That organization is very >> positive. If I understood yesterday, you're claiming better before 8% better performance relative to bare metal. I know that's apples to apples. Or what kind of juicing you're doing on the benchmark >> sex schedule that it chooses it right there. >> I want to ask you about integration and look at it as a quasi. His story of the the industry. You go back to see A with all the acquisitions, right? Historical force it with fusion. Different layer of the stack. I know. Certainly Del did a lot of acquisitions. Some of them work. Some of them didn t m c. Same thing pretty successful. Actually. VM were great engineering. Um, very strong. Go to market on really good acquisitions. My question is on integration with the nice Sarah background, I wonder. I mean, nice. Sarah seems to be very well integrated into the VM. Where platform How is integration The state of integration today within V. M. Where is it a lot easier today because we're living in this AP I economy. What about VM? Wears sort of integration ethos. One of the challenges. I wonder if you could comment and that long. So >> I've been through, uh, to significant integrations of'em where the 1st 1 was with this nice era on. I was on the I was on the incoming side, not the receiving side. The next was with hep Theo. I was on the receiving side, not the incoming side. And so, as coming into this year, back in 2012 Pat was extremely supportive and asked his entire team to be very supportive of getting us integrated quickly and productive. A CZ fastest possible. We were on campus on the via more campus from the next era office within days of the deal closing. That's how efficient Veum work. That's like that's the mindset hammerhead coming into. We were in a building. We were co located with the other networking engineers and product managers. Within the first week on, we were off to the races. That was about 100 20 person company. Hep Ko is about 100% company, Um, about the same efficiency we were consolidating. Offices were bringing them over again, mostly distributed team, but they had a center of gravity. In Seattle. We had a center of gravity in Bellevue. We brought the team's over within within a couple of months in about three months. In three and 1/2 months in, we had the team fully integrated. The organizational design done all the tools in a greater we're all in the same systems. So what happens very quickly now, an organization that's much bigger like like pivotal 3000 employees. Public company takes a little bit longer to get from Deal announced the deal close because it's too public entities. It'll take a little bit longer to do all the integration, but we're already thinking thinking about we know them so well and they know us so well. We already know where the potential landmines are, where the potential rough spots are. Pat prides himself and, uh, this pushes down into the rest of them were on well, welcoming new team members in new groups into the company. And so we try to do that really were very culturally sensitive way optimized for the right tool kit s O that we take, we take some learning like cloud health. When they came in, they had a lot of expertise around. SAS drooling and support of customers were adopting all of that, right. Were jettisoned some of our older tools in favor of some of the things that >> we're gonna win the modernization. So I want to get your thoughts on the last question for the second congratulations, your your your area. We love what you're doing. We think it's super important. Would be covering it like a blanket this year and going forward. But Pakistan came on was wrapped. Talking about 10 years and doing the riffing on the Cube are 10 years covering it. We have some 10 years forward, which waves to be on. They highlighted on the past 10 years in this ear acquisition as a critical moment to bring VM. We're into the S T D C kind of concept started networking up, so we know the history they're sti n and then going forward, he says. If you're not a networking and security in the next wave and Kubernetes is Number one, you're really gonna be missing out. So we highlighted networking, security and kubernetes. But networking. It's nice here on both sides of that 10 year spectrum. You're part of that. >> Why is that? Why is that wise >> watching people know that networking is the most important piece of the wave here? What's the relevance of what he's saying? Share their thoughts on >> Think about the increasing complexity of what at modernization drives into the infrastructure. You're getting smaller and smaller moving parts that that need to operate together at scale in a comprehensive, logical way. But at any point in time, if you're if you're an enterprise organization, if you've got if you've got compliance requirements, audit ability, requirements. If you want to protect, you hear about the number of of small towns that get blackmailed on a daily basis because someone's secured an encrypted There, there, there count taxpayer data and they're there, their victims. All right, this is this >> is some say, cyber warfare. >> It is something. So if you think about in orderto help, our customers get the most out of their developers, these tools that open up I think the potential of a lot more avenues of attack get a lot more complex. And so we think that these two have to progress hand in hand. One. We do want to help developers go as fast as possible. We won't help enterprises get the most out of those developers. That's a big part of why we brought them were into into the damn warfare. We're bringing a pivotal into the VM. We're family, but at the same time, we recognize that the infrastructure has to progress. Every bit is fast, and the network is the thing that ties all these parts together. Whether it's a layer three year layer for networking today or level layer several networking layer seven AP I based networking in the future >> all. I mean, I'm not gonna bring up I ot or industrial i ot to takeovers of physical devices, whether it's a self driving bus off a cliff or taking over towns and cities warfare, I mean the service areas of enormous networks, Internet connectivity applications over the cloud native. Anyway, we know that, right? So a lot to talk about. Thanks for coming on. The Cube Sharing your insight. Senior Vice President, General manager, The Cloud Native APS Group. This is really the key instrument with envy em where to take kubernetes and the advancement of cloud to 0.0 to the next level. I'm John for a day. Volante, be back after this short break.

from the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas it's the queue recovering the Hojo Kahn 2018 to you by Osho hello everyone welcome back to the cubes exclusive coverage here live in Las Vegas for the first ever security conference around blockchains called Osho con it's put on by host show and industry participants small but intimate and the smartest people in in the industry kind of coming together trying to solve and understand the future for security as it relates to blockchain I'm John furrow your host of the cube next guys anneal keelson who's the CEO of encrypt formerly the NSA's variety experience with security across the board from early days many waves of technology innovation had a panel here talking about you know securing the blockchain and the nuclear codes some basically implying that do you know if you had to secure it the nuclear it's welcome to the cube well thanks thanks John it's great to talk to you um that's exactly it right so the blockchain is is meant to really provide high assurance for a lot of really big transactions right so the internet evolved over time to to hold information to to share information who has ever meant to conduct transactions now we do a lot of e-commerce commerce on it but it wasn't meant to be unchanging right but the blockchain is it said that so the idea is is if we lose control of that if we don't secure it in a way that we can protect our most important digital assets and it's not good enough for anything and so that's why I compared it to you know what would it take to secure something like the nuclear launch codes on it clearly we wouldn't you know there's no reason to but some mindset it's my shift shared focus on okay think that level of impact absolutely money right these people are putting you know it doesn't matter whether you're you're 16 and you're putting your only 500 dollars in crypto or whether you're an institutional investor with five hundred million dollars in it right that that's catastrophic if you lose it right and yet we don't always treat it that way we haven't made the systems easy enough to use for the general user right yeah so we talked about adoption right I mean let's let's talk so if you don't mind let's talk about adoption Yeah right that's why we're here is we're trying to figure out what's it gonna take to get to the next billion users and crypto well it has to be easy and we don't make it easy today in a secure enough way it has to be baked in from the beginning can't be like okay I built an app I built some architecture do some blockchain well by the way security is really hard because we have to make it so complex right for users because it's complex in general right if we build the app first and we get it deployed to say even 50,000 people and then we go back and say you know what we need to build this tree it's more expensive right it's harder to do it's a lays deployment and it confuses users because now they're changing the way that they're interactive let's talk about the adoption in context to architecture it's one of the things that we've been covering certainly the cube folks know in our audience cloud computing has changed the architecture of how people deploy IT and technologies get DevOps horizontally scalable you've had a lot experience over the years and generations of computing evolving through the trend lines here the architecture is interesting so if you think about the architecture of security and blotching in general the security paradigm has to be compatible with a new architecture so it's kind of a moving train at multiple levels so what is the preferred architecture what are some of the blockchain architects and or if you're gonna have token economics you have to have certain business model and our workflows that ties into the technology enablement how should people think about an architectural view to make the adoption or user interface or user experience or where the expectation is kind of new has it all come together so I'm challenging people to think about it differently right so so the blockchain in itself is really pretty secure right it creates an immutable ledger a mutable record where we're going to get in trouble and where we do get in trouble is when you start to transact with it right where you start to actually use a device right whether it's your own phone or it's a computer right you're transacting with it and people don't have the security mechanisms built in there you know and it goes back to what we've talked about for the last 20 years whether it was with the trust computing group the global platform right they've designed the standards so you've got probably in this PC you've got the waltz I guess it's a MacBook Cermak yes yes and your phone right in most computers you've got the security primitives that you need to use hardware to secure those transactions but we're not using them yeah we've been waiting for that kind of killer app to use hardware to secure transactions and blockchain might just be that it's talked about the hard work is doesn't that conversation of kids coming up a lot here in the hallways I was the custodial services today these are two kind of the the business conversation that converts them to technology which is okay hardware is actually a good time to actually implement this Google's doing a lot of stuff with their two-factor authentication with a hardware component you hear Stephan spray get rivets talking about a solution he has it is it the time it's like the perfect storm for just a simple hardware solution I think it is and it and you're right it has to be simple right hardware solutions can get complex we can make them too difficult to use but they don't have to be we like I said we have the firm that was built into most these devices I mean in the billions of devices yeah if you thought to Steven you've heard him talking about the number of devices that are there carrying the primitives he needs needs to use for his his hardware um but if we don't make it simple enough then users won't adopt if they won't use it you know have you used a hardware wallet I'm sure you probably have it yet right it's it's not a simple process today because it requires external pieces external components it's it's it's not a workflow that we understand it's not something we can train to and grown up with it's interesting when I was also talking to Steve off-camera because he had the interviews over but we're talking about the supply chain compromise honestly Bloomberg kind of had the story they had the facts wrong but we kind of understand that that's this hack has been out there for a while around modifying and or a rootkit on the boards you have an brach cat Adam demo live demo on stage and 2015 where they actually showed malware that could not be removed from from memory so I mean it's not this is not new right so but the supply chain has always been and you've been the government you got to know where all the components are right so the old days oh hey outsourced manufacture in China build it the cheapest way possible commodity and D Ram was went down this rip path years and years ago and Japan dominated that and it was low commodity low margin or high Kimani low margin and then Pentium comes out so you're starting to see that hardware supply chain changing what's different now what do people got to do to make sure that the hardware is better what's your opinion on that I don't know if it needs to be better but wouldn't what we need to know is is where the hard work came from we need to know that the hardware is what we expected it to be right that's a really unique question you know we all buy Hardware all the time and you just expect it if it came from vendor that it's what you expected and and and let's talk about something even simpler it's not talking about maliciousness most computers you buy are built to order today right you order you order all the different components yet when you get that at home you don't check to make sure you got the actual RAM that you asked for you have no idea none of us do that right and and likely the vendor doesn't really have a great record to know that absolutely they put in there what you specifically wanted now they intend to write but there's no there's a lot of room in that for changes to be made that aren't expected I guess that for good or bad from malicious or non malicious intent so what that means is that we really need to get used to saying you know what I got this new piece of hardware I got to conduct transactions with that are really critical to my financial survival my my personal privacy and we can't trust them until we know we should be able to trust them so that's where hard work comes into play what sort of trans you're seeing in the hallway conversations you had here and your talk I see people grab you after and talk to you two hallways what are some of the hallway conversations that you've been having here at Osho con I you know the most common question has been how do you convince people that security is important I mean that which is a really really basic way and you know right now life just point them to to news after news article you know to say you know you've got the hardware were reported tax yeah you've got the privacy attacks with with a lot of social media and and and internet companies um if summary this today doesn't believe that security is important I don't know you'll have to convince them so then it becomes a question of how do you get them to adopt it and you know getting getting your your family members to adopt two-factor authentication when it's not as as easy as not adopting it yeah it's sometimes a hard place yeah one things I worry about just kind of just because I'm paranoid sometimes is that yeah what is going on in my with my kids I got four kids 16 to 23 you know I got a Wi-Fi in my house they've got a password on it I'm sure it's been hacked but they're downloading music what the movies I don't know what they're doing at gaming mean there's a service area in my house is pretty much who knows what's going on right I don't even know what's going on in my network this is kind of this in my mind will paranoid but that's what average people think about these days it's like okay I got my own home network at these things going on I'm out in the wild is it a device centric security model that we're moving to do you see it where you know hey my phone you know I don't I know when I leave my phone at home and it takes me three seconds to realize I got to turn the car right so yeah and I leave my wallet at the restaurant when I'm done my meal so these are kind of device centric philosophy is that a better direction you think so I don't know that you can yes and no right for the personal devices but now you know if you go to most networks right with IOT you may have 40 or 50 devices on your network yeah things that don't move you know you may have a light bulb that's got a key to it right it's really about making sure that you own it and then you own the keys I mean that's what it okay that's what security all comes down to you right is key ownership so when you take a look at how you do that we need the systems in place that help us understand where those keys are what they're doing and how we how we cut them off if we need to that's awesome well I was I want to get into what your company's doing but I also wanna I talked about trip I had Middle East general Keith Alexander was with us on at with Amazon almost new region I know you worked with him at the NSA and you know one of the things he's doing at his new startup is a crowdsourcing we're hearing some of that in here as well where people are using crowdsourcing as a way of the security mechanism is that something that you think is viable do you think that this crowd sourcing idea is gonna be helpful or it's just a small piece of the puzzle I think it's I think it's a small piece of the puzzle I think it's the opposite end of the spectrum then a device centric hardware component I think it takes both pieces right it's a matter of making sure you you you know what you have and they use only what you trust and that you're able to connect to the network in a way that you're comfortable and then that crowdsource piece comes in to make sure that you're monitoring kind of all those transactions so so you're a big believer I'm assuming based on the conversation that hardware and software combination is gonna be the preferred user interface I think work it has to be I think we've proven that over the last 20 years I mean cell phones are a good example of that yeah right although we do get some spoofing today and that's been a big talker this cost it's not as prevalent as it was in 1994 yeah yeah I mean I like the idea too of we mean hey if we have we want to know what's in my computer I'd love to go look at a blockchain ledger and say here's what's in my Mac right now wouldn't you that's a good use case of blockchain but but what if you didn't even have to go look at it right what if every time you booted it up it checked it against a a record that was on the blockchain that said you know this is what your Mac should look like and it said you know what you can go ahead and connect to the internet go ahead and conduct that transaction that's the great Act go ahead and that's a great use case all right so what encrypt your company what do you guys doing what's the main focus of your opportunity that you're pursuing so we formed it in May of this year to focus on blockchain security when I left the agency I realized there was this really big gap in the conversation people are having around it I think it's a transformational technology as a skills gap technology gap all the above what are you saying it's both right you've got computer science graduates that come out without a good understanding of hardware security you know it's not being taught in most curriculums it's a it's a it's a general understanding of how to apply the hardware against it it's a general under Sun derp standing of what you can trust right yeah we've got generate a generation now that have grown up with with iPhones in their hands they just assume it's it's okay to use it's just thing you mentioned the computer science programs but I would agree interview started in the 80s so we had to learn computer architectures EE class actually right and you know as gates and all that you know the hard core component stuff as well as coding systems a systems kind of programming model now it's a little bit different more diverse it'll ease a lot of you know new opportunities within computer science so it's broad and certainly in a skill gap that's what comes up a lot we hear obviously more cyber security jobs are open and ever before automation is a term that's been coming known in the cloud business where you starting to see that now a security host shows got this automation component that they're adding in for tooling is the tooling and for developers who actually building stuff out there's it early innings how would you put the progress of some of the tooling that that's reliable I mean this is you know you still got people trying to build products and companies I need help what's the status in your mind the ecosystem around platforms and tooling and open source so over the last ten years there's been a great push to to create better tools I'm a lot of it was done in the open source a lot of those done around Linux because it work Windows honestly Microsoft has done a great job in getting secure boot implemented on every on every PC they supply you know Apple does a great job with their boot security but it they're not making available and mobile is probably the worst example right that the TE the trusted execution environment which is the secure space in a mobile phone isn't open for most developers to access right so you know that hardware component isn't there it's not available so yeah I know I always get this updates when I go to China Hey Apple has an update for you it's like the download mmm is this really Apple right I mean no turn off my iPhone right I mean but this is kind of the the interception of you know the the the fraudulent some of the some of malicious things are going on and that that still is concern but I think generally speaking you got entrepreneurs here not noticed at this conference and some of the earlier investor conferences we've been to there's a ton of alpha entrepreneur activity real smart people trying to build durable technology and solutions this is the main focus so it's kind of like and the capital Mars as we know is pretty much in the toilet right now but you know it's still growth and so we're trying to unpack that what's your opinion on entrepreneurship because it every trough is always an OP tick and we'll probably see some growth and those company that survive and thrive will probably be the leaders right what are you seeing what's your opinion of the landscape event ventures out there so so the crypto markets been really interesting it's all been focused on consumer and crypto there's there and even on the floor today there's a big push into the enterprise market for blockchain and deployments you know Simba is a company that's got a great toolset here today you had to help see how big enterprises understand how to deploy smart contracts into a blockchain in the enterprise you know to me the exciting part is the use case is outside of cryptocurrency and tokens the blockchain brings two to the marketplace I think that's where we'll see the next wave entrepreneurship I'm coming to fundraise that on stage at a comments like hey you know when one of the Q&A sessions substance you think your best proposal and substitute database with blockchain if it means the same is probably not Neri absolutely I'm teasing out essentially that the you know the old guard being replaced with the new guard same same models two new faces you know taking over the industries that not only mean changing them so to speak and security kind of hence to the same way where if you're going to have a distributed and decentralized architecture with IOT with all these things connected with digital assets and digital devices this crews gonna be thought differently what's what's your current take on how to tackle that that world I mean is there a certain approach you found so so so there's I'm not sure going to answer your actual question but but there's there's this really interesting debate like you said aundrea said you know if you can replace database with with blockchain is probably not the right fit and a lot of early crypto adopters have made that argument jimmy song says that publicly all the time right there's no place for blockchain in the enterprise essentially right and and you know you can you can swing both ways but the blockchain offers something to to an enterprise that doesn't require the distribution it offers the ability to create immutability right now the inability to change that record which we don't have in most cases today yeah you know and it's fairly simple and easy to deploy and are not for smart contracts so if we go back to the the use case we talked about where every time a machine boots up and it creates a record of that machine and writes it we've never had that capability we've tried we you know when I was at the agency we built a system that sort of did that but it didn't have the same sort of underlying strength of mechanism yeah it would allow us to trust it forensic way almost you know I interviewed Jimmy song and to have consensus event and you know I don't necessarily agree with him on that point it's like I think there's use cases in the enterprise that actually make blockchain very viable and it's almost like the cloud world you have public and private hybrid coming I mean so that's kind of my take on it and because it's interesting me iBM has been advertising heavily and others are looking at supply chain is low-hanging fruit opportunities right let me talk about the computer and supply chain so supply chain is a chain it's with valued change right than value chains now are changing so you can track it in a way that's efficient that's why wouldn't that be a use case so that's kind of mind dude do you agree with that absolutely I mean I think the distributed nature for a crypto makes a lot of sense but the blockchain in a non distributed manner right in a permission to blockchain makes a lot of sense for a lot of different use cases in big organizations I I agree I've talked to different different people that have just tried to replace databases with blockchain because it sounded cool yeah raising money or want to get some attention get some momentum I want to ask you a question on your new venture and Cripps because you talk to a lot of folks out there you certainly you're historic and pedigree is amazing and security and you've seen a lot of things I'm sure what have you learn what's your observation what's the the learnings that you can take away and share from your conversations is there any patterns that you're seeing emerging that's that's that could help people either navigate understand orientate towards something that they might want to use with the what have you learned so I think the biggest thing I've learned is that this community is the most diverse community I've ever worked with in in technology right you've got people from all walks of life and it's absolutely amazing I mean just walking around the show here walking around consensus I mean it just drives diversity like you've never seen before in tech conferences and that diversity is his driven a thirst for knowledge so the people are completely open to to discussions about security that they've never had before in other realms right so when I talked to him about Harbor based security they get excited and want to learn more and and honestly in the PC community over the last 15 years I got a little pushback on that right there's a while we've heard about that we don't want to right it works the way it is people here realize they're building something brand-new yeah and it's time to build it right and that they really want this to succeed for their own reasons right whether it's a corporate enterprise or whether it's a almost a crypto anarchist right they've all got the same sorts of goals and it's and if there's a cultural thing to I think the Bitcoin money aspect of it pretty much anyone on the age of three that I kind of take a straw poll on it's like they all this is gonna change the world like rabbit knows but it's great right oh I actually heard that in the hallway earlier yes and then the phone just traveling somebody that never heard of Bitcoin how does get a revolution coming on I want to ask you a final question five years where are we in your mind shoot the arrow forward what's happening in five years how does this these dots connect in next couple years or so so I think that if we were able to lay in the groundwork today to make user accessibility to the blockchain easy enough and secure enough I think you'll see that it grows in ways that we that we really can't imagine right you know I can't predict the crypto markets but I think you'll see people starting to use tokens in different ways and I think there's some incredible use cases for tokenization for rewards programs things like that I think enterprises in the next five years are gonna start to figure out what use cases make sense I think they're gonna see great efficiency I think they'll see you know much greater scalability and ease of use the use cases really are gonna be driving all this absolutely well I want to final question since just popped in my head I want to get this out there one trend I'm hearing here at this conference and seeing it kind of boil in into this community is the conversation not just about cryptography and and security cyber security on a global scales now come in because of the hacks gives the nation-states because of the geopolitical landscape you know cyber security is a big conversation now but always probably in the wheelhouse a lot of these guys but a lot of these guys are also kind of adjacent involved with cybersecurity your view of the impact the cybersecurity pressure is gonna have on the industry this industry so I think that that you're hearing the conversation because suddenly security became really really important to people personally right in the past if if you lost money with your bank account it was refunded to you now if somebody steals your private key you're out whatever money was attached to that private key recourse right so it's very personal so people have started to think about all the different things that they need to do to really protect those keys I mean it's it's it's almost an organic conversation that we've been trying to drive for you know 40 years in the space yeah and one of things I worry about is the whole regulatory dry aspect is because it can be a driver or an enabler and a driver or it could be dampening innovation and that's always something to watch out for I think there's a Senate discussion today about it I think there's some great work going on in that space both its senior levels in the Congress as well as the regulatory commissions but it's going to take a lot of Education there's a lot of fear around this space well thanks for come on looking forward to having more conversation with you great to have you on the cube and sharing your insight give a quick plug for n Crypt what do you guys doing what's the update status of the company how do people get ahold of you why do they why should they call you what's what's the update well so like I said we formed in May we've we've grown faster than we would have expected to because there's a thirst for the sorts of things that we're doing them we're we're always happy to talk to talk to any enterprise or a consumer about the use cases around the products that they have how did it fit into the blockchain environment and how to do it securely properly so encrypt calm and kr ypt die here in Maryland we're in Maryland DC area so cool great absolutely basic appreciated live from Toshio con us two cubes coverage of the first security conference John for you watching the Q stay with us for more coverage after this short break