>>Oracle continues to enhance my sequel Heatwave at a very rapid pace. The company is now in its fourth major release since the original announcement in December 2020. 1 of the main criticisms of my sequel, Heatwave, is that it only runs on O. C I. Oracle Cloud Infrastructure and as a lock in to Oracle's Cloud. Oracle recently announced that heat wave is now going to be available in AWS Cloud and it announced its intent to bring my sequel Heatwave to Azure. So my secret heatwave on AWS is a significant TAM expansion move for Oracle because of the momentum AWS Cloud continues to show. And evidently the Heatwave Engineering team has taken the development effort from O. C I. And is bringing that to A W S with a number of enhancements that we're gonna dig into today is senior vice president. My sequel Heatwave at Oracle is back with me on a cube conversation to discuss the latest heatwave news, and we're eager to hear any benchmarks relative to a W S or any others. Nippon has been leading the Heatwave engineering team for over 10 years and there's over 100 and 85 patents and database technology. Welcome back to the show and good to see you. >>Thank you. Very happy to be back. >>Now for those who might not have kept up with the news, uh, to kick things off, give us an overview of my sequel, Heatwave and its evolution. So far, >>so my sequel, Heat Wave, is a fully managed my secret database service offering from Oracle. Traditionally, my secret has been designed and optimised for transaction processing. So customers of my sequel then they had to run analytics or when they had to run machine learning, they would extract the data out of my sequel into some other database for doing. Unlike processing or machine learning processing my sequel, Heat provides all these capabilities built in to a single database service, which is my sequel. He'd fake So customers of my sequel don't need to move the data out with the same database. They can run transaction processing and predicts mixed workloads, machine learning, all with a very, very good performance in very good price performance. Furthermore, one of the design points of heat wave is is a scale out architecture, so the system continues to scale and performed very well, even when customers have very large late assignments. >>So we've seen some interesting moves by Oracle lately. The collaboration with Azure we've we've covered that pretty extensively. What was the impetus here for bringing my sequel Heatwave onto the AWS cloud? What were the drivers that you considered? >>So one of the observations is that a very large percentage of users of my sequel Heatwave, our AWS users who are migrating of Aurora or so already we see that a good percentage of my secret history of customers are migrating from GWS. However, there are some AWS customers who are still not able to migrate the O. C. I to my secret heat wave. And the reason is because of, um, exorbitant cost, which was charges. So in order to migrate the workload from AWS to go see, I digress. Charges are very high fees which becomes prohibitive for the customer or the second example we have seen is that the latency of practising a database which is outside of AWS is very high. So there's a class of customers who would like to get the benefits of my secret heatwave but were unable to do so and with this support of my secret trip inside of AWS, these customers can now get all the grease of the benefits of my secret he trip without having to pay the high fees or without having to suffer with the poorly agency, which is because of the ws architecture. >>Okay, so you're basically meeting the customer's where they are. So was this a straightforward lifted shift from from Oracle Cloud Infrastructure to AWS? >>No, it is not because one of the design girls we have with my sequel, Heatwave is that we want to provide our customers with the best price performance regardless of the cloud. So when we decided to offer my sequel, he headed west. Um, we have optimised my sequel Heatwave on it as well. So one of the things to point out is that this is a service with the data plane control plane and the console are natively running on AWS. And the benefits of doing so is that now we can optimise my sequel Heatwave for the E. W s architecture. In addition to that, we have also announced a bunch of new capabilities as a part of the service which will also be available to the my secret history of customers and our CI, But we just announced them and we're offering them as a part of my secret history of offering on AWS. >>So I just want to make sure I understand that it's not like you just wrapped your stack in a container and stuck it into a W s to be hosted. You're saying you're actually taking advantage of the capabilities of the AWS cloud natively? And I think you've made some other enhancements as well that you're alluding to. Can you maybe, uh, elucidate on those? Sure. >>So for status, um, we have taken the mind sequel Heatwave code and we have optimised for the It was infrastructure with its computer network. And as a result, customers get very good performance and price performance. Uh, with my secret he trade in AWS. That's one performance. Second thing is, we have designed new interactive counsel for the service, which means that customers can now provision there instances with the council. But in addition, they can also manage their schemas. They can. Then court is directly from the council. Autopilot is integrated. The council we have introduced performance monitoring, so a lot of capabilities which we have introduced as a part of the new counsel. The third thing is that we have added a bunch of new security features, uh, expose some of the security features which were part of the My Secret Enterprise edition as a part of the service, which gives customers now a choice of using these features to build more secure applications. And finally, we have extended my secret autopilot for a number of old gpus cases. In the past, my secret autopilot had a lot of capabilities for Benedict, and now we have augmented my secret autopilot to offer capabilities for elderly people. Includes as well. >>But there was something in your press release called Auto thread. Pooling says it provides higher and sustained throughput. High concerns concerns concurrency by determining Apple number of transactions, which should be executed. Uh, what is that all about? The auto thread pool? It seems pretty interesting. How does it affect performance? Can you help us understand that? >>Yes, and this is one of the capabilities of alluding to which we have added in my secret autopilot for transaction processing. So here is the basic idea. If you have a system where there's a large number of old EP transactions coming into it at a high degrees of concurrency in many of the existing systems of my sequel based systems, it can lead to a state where there are few transactions executing, but a bunch of them can get blocked with or a pilot tried pulling. What we basically do is we do workload aware admission control and what this does is it figures out, what's the right scheduling or all of these algorithms, so that either the transactions are executing or as soon as something frees up, they can start executing, so there's no transaction which is blocked. The advantage to the customer of this capability is twofold. A get significantly better throughput compared to service like Aurora at high levels of concurrency. So at high concurrency, for instance, uh, my secret because of this capability Uh oh, thread pulling offers up to 10 times higher compared to Aurora, that's one first benefit better throughput. The second advantage is that the true part of the system never drops, even at high levels of concurrency, whereas in the case of Aurora, the trooper goes up, but then, at high concurrency is, let's say, starting, uh, level of 500 or something. It depends upon the underlying shit they're using the troopers just dropping where it's with my secret heatwave. The truth will never drops. Now, the ramification for the customer is that if the truth is not gonna drop, the user can start off with a small shape, get the performance and be a show that even the workload increases. They will never get a performance, which is worse than what they're getting with lower levels of concurrency. So this let's leads to customers provisioning a shape which is just right for them. And if they need, they can, uh, go with the largest shape. But they don't like, you know, over pay. So those are the two benefits. Better performance and sustain, uh, regardless of the level of concurrency. >>So how do we quantify that? I know you've got some benchmarks. How can you share comparisons with other cloud databases especially interested in in Amazon's own databases are obviously very popular, and and are you publishing those again and get hub, as you have done in the past? Take us through the benchmarks. >>Sure, So benchmarks are important because that gives customers a sense of what performance to expect and what price performance to expect. So we have run a number of benchmarks. And yes, all these benchmarks are available on guitar for customers to take a look at. So we have performance results on all the three castle workloads, ol DB Analytics and Machine Learning. So let's start with the Rdp for Rdp and primarily because of the auto thread pulling feature. We show that for the IPCC for attended dataset at high levels of concurrency, heatwave offers up to 10 times better throughput and this performance is sustained, whereas in the case of Aurora, the performance really drops. So that's the first thing that, uh, tend to alibi. Sorry, 10 gigabytes. B B C c. I can come and see the performance are the throughput is 10 times better than Aurora for analytics. We have done a comparison of my secret heatwave in AWS and compared with Red Ship Snowflake Googled inquiry, we find that the price performance of my secret heatwave compared to read ship is seven times better. So my sequel, Heat Wave in AWS, provides seven times better price performance than red ship. That's a very, uh, interesting results to us. Which means that customers of Red Shift are really going to take the service seriously because they're gonna get seven times better price performance. And this is all running in a W s so compared. >>Okay, carry on. >>And then I was gonna say, compared to like, Snowflake, uh, in AWS offers 10 times better price performance. And compared to Google, ubiquity offers 12 times better price performance. And this is based on a four terabyte p PCH workload. Results are available on guitar, and then the third category is machine learning and for machine learning, uh, for training, the performance of my secret heatwave is 25 times faster compared to that shit. So all the three workloads we have benchmark's results, and all of these scripts are available on YouTube. >>Okay, so you're comparing, uh, my sequel Heatwave on AWS to Red Shift and snowflake on AWS. And you're comparing my sequel Heatwave on a W s too big query. Obviously running on on Google. Um, you know, one of the things Oracle is done in the past when you get the price performance and I've always tried to call fouls you're, like, double your price for running the oracle database. Uh, not Heatwave, but Oracle Database on a W s. And then you'll show how it's it's so much cheaper on on Oracle will be like Okay, come on. But they're not doing that here. You're basically taking my sequel Heatwave on a W s. I presume you're using the same pricing for whatever you see to whatever else you're using. Storage, um, reserved instances. That's apples to apples on A W s. And you have to obviously do some kind of mapping for for Google, for big query. Can you just verify that for me, >>we are being more than fair on two dimensions. The first thing is, when I'm talking about the price performance for analytics, right for, uh, with my secret heat rape, the cost I'm talking about from my secret heat rape is the cost of running transaction processing, analytics and machine learning. So it's a fully loaded cost for the case of my secret heatwave. There has been I'm talking about red ship when I'm talking about Snowflake. I'm just talking about the cost of these databases for running, and it's only it's not, including the source database, which may be more or some other database, right? So that's the first aspect that far, uh, trip. It's the cost for running all three kinds of workloads, whereas for the competition, it's only for running analytics. The second thing is that for these are those services whether it's like shit or snowflakes, That's right. We're talking about one year, fully paid up front cost, right? So that's what most of the customers would pay for. Many of the customers would pay that they will sign a one year contract and pay all the costs ahead of time because they get a discount. So we're using that price and the case of Snowflake. The costs were using is their standard edition of price, not the Enterprise edition price. So yes, uh, more than in this competitive. >>Yeah, I think that's an important point. I saw an analysis by Marx Tamer on Wiki Bond, where he was doing the TCO comparisons. And I mean, if you have to use two separate databases in two separate licences and you have to do et yelling and all the labour associated with that, that that's that's a big deal and you're not even including that aspect in in your comparison. So that's pretty impressive. To what do you attribute that? You know, given that unlike, oh, ci within the AWS cloud, you don't have as much control over the underlying hardware. >>So look hard, but is one aspect. Okay, so there are three things which give us this advantage. The first thing is, uh, we have designed hateful foreign scale out architecture. So we came up with new algorithms we have come up with, like, uh, one of the design points for heat wave is a massively partitioned architecture, which leads to a very high degree of parallelism. So that's a lot of hype. Each were built, So that's the first part. The second thing is that although we don't have control over the hardware, but the second design point for heat wave is that it is optimised for commodity cloud and the commodity infrastructure so we can have another guys, what to say? The computer we get, how much network bandwidth do we get? How much of, like objects to a brand that we get in here? W s. And we have tuned heat for that. That's the second point And the third thing is my secret autopilot, which provides machine learning based automation. So what it does is that has the users workload is running. It learns from it, it improves, uh, various premieres in the system. So the system keeps getting better as you learn more and more questions. And this is the third thing, uh, as a result of which we get a significant edge over the competition. >>Interesting. I mean, look, any I SV can go on any cloud and take advantage of it. And that's, uh I love it. We live in a new world. How about machine learning workloads? What? What did you see there in terms of performance and benchmarks? >>Right. So machine learning. We offer three capabilities training, which is fully automated, running in France and explanations. So one of the things which many of our customers told us coming from the enterprise is that explanations are very important to them because, uh, customers want to know that. Why did the the system, uh, choose a certain prediction? So we offer explanations for all models which have been derailed by. That's the first thing. Now, one of the interesting things about training is that training is usually the most expensive phase of machine learning. So we have spent a lot of time improving the performance of training. So we have a bunch of techniques which we have developed inside of Oracle to improve the training process. For instance, we have, uh, metal and proxy models, which really give us an advantage. We use adaptive sampling. We have, uh, invented in techniques for paralysing the hyper parameter search. So as a result of a lot of this work, our training is about 25 times faster than that ship them health and all the data is, uh, inside the database. All this processing is being done inside the database, so it's much faster. It is inside the database. And I want to point out that there is no additional charge for the history of customers because we're using the same cluster. You're not working in your service. So all of these machine learning capabilities are being offered at no additional charge inside the database and as a performance, which is significantly faster than that, >>are you taking advantage of or is there any, uh, need not need, but any advantage that you can get if two by exploiting things like gravity. John, we've talked about that a little bit in the past. Or trainee. Um, you just mentioned training so custom silicon that AWS is doing, you're taking advantage of that. Do you need to? Can you give us some insight >>there? So there are two things, right? We're always evaluating What are the choices we have from hybrid perspective? Obviously, for us to leverage is right and like all the things you mention about like we have considered them. But there are two things to consider. One is he is a memory system. So he favours a big is the dominant cost. The processor is a person of the cost, but memory is the dominant cost. So what we have evaluated and found is that the current shape which we are using is going to provide our customers with the best price performance. That's the first thing. The second thing is that there are opportunities at times when we can use a specialised processor for vaccinating the world for a bit. But then it becomes a matter of the cost of the customer. Advantage of our current architecture is on the same hardware. Customers are getting very good performance. Very good, energetic performance in a very good machine learning performance. If you will go with the specialised processor, it may. Actually, it's a machine learning, but then it's an additional cost with the customers we need to pay. So we are very sensitive to the customer's request, which is usually to provide very good performance at a very low cost. And we feel is that the current design we have as providing customers very good performance and very good price performance. >>So part of that is architectural. The memory intensive nature of of heat wave. The other is A W s pricing. If AWS pricing were to flip, it might make more sense for you to take advantage of something like like cranium. Okay, great. Thank you. And welcome back to the benchmarks benchmarks. Sometimes they're artificial right there. A car can go from 0 to 60 in two seconds. But I might not be able to experience that level of performance. Do you? Do you have any real world numbers from customers that have used my sequel Heatwave on A W s. And how they look at performance? >>Yes, absolutely so the my Secret service on the AWS. This has been in Vera for, like, since November, right? So we have a lot of customers who have tried the service. And what actually we have found is that many of these customers, um, planning to migrate from Aurora to my secret heat rape. And what they find is that the performance difference is actually much more pronounced than what I was talking about. Because with Aurora, the performance is actually much poorer compared to uh, like what I've talked about. So in some of these cases, the customers found improvement from 60 times, 240 times, right? So he travels 100 for 240 times faster. It was much less expensive. And the third thing, which is you know, a noteworthy is that customers don't need to change their applications. So if you ask the top three reasons why customers are migrating, it's because of this. No change to the application much faster, and it is cheaper. So in some cases, like Johnny Bites, what they found is that the performance of their applications for the complex storeys was about 60 to 90 times faster. Then we had 60 technologies. What they found is that the performance of heat we have compared to Aurora was 100 and 39 times faster. So, yes, we do have many such examples from real workloads from customers who have tried it. And all across what we find is if it offers better performance, lower cost and a single database such that it is compatible with all existing by sequel based applications and workloads. >>Really impressive. The analysts I talked to, they're all gaga over heatwave, and I can see why. Okay, last question. Maybe maybe two and one. Uh, what's next? In terms of new capabilities that customers are going to be able to leverage and any other clouds that you're thinking about? We talked about that upfront, but >>so in terms of the capabilities you have seen, like they have been, you know, non stop attending to the feedback from the customers in reacting to it. And also, we have been in a wedding like organically. So that's something which is gonna continue. So, yes, you can fully expect that people not dressed and continue to in a way and with respect to the other clouds. Yes, we are planning to support my sequel. He tripped on a show, and this is something that will be announced in the near future. Great. >>All right, Thank you. Really appreciate the the overview. Congratulations on the work. Really exciting news that you're moving my sequel Heatwave into other clouds. It's something that we've been expecting for some time. So it's great to see you guys, uh, making that move, and as always, great to have you on the Cube. >>Thank you for the opportunity. >>All right. And thank you for watching this special cube conversation. I'm Dave Volonte, and we'll see you next time.

>>Hey, everyone, welcome to the Cubes Coverage of the International Women's Showcase for 2022. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Pleased to be here with an agreement ahead of small medium business SMB for Asia Pacific and Japan at Amazon Web services. Anna. It's great to have you on the programme, >>Lisa. I am delighted to be here and really excited to be talking about what we're gonna be talking about today, which is diversity and women in technology. >>One of the great things about International Women's Day Tuesday, March 8th, is there's always a campaign of theme. This year's theme is breaking the bias. What does that mean to you? And are we on our way to actually accomplish that? >>Look, Breaking the bias really is about all of us being more self aware in our workplaces. Really. What it means to me is understanding that the communities and the employment, the employee population, that all of us working is diverse. Um, and this is a great example of that, right? We are a global organisation and our employees come from across the world. I am representing people from across Asia Pacific and Japan. They look, feel and think differently to people in other parts of the world. So, really, what breaking the biases about is understanding our unconscious biases and thinking differently about how we approach conversations in the workplace to make sure that we're including everyone in the conversation. And honestly, Lisa, when you do that, you get much better. Business outcomes. I've seen that for sure. >>Definitely. There's some stats we can talk about later that I think really articulate that point incredibly well. But I want to talk about your background. You pivoted many times from lawyer to the CEO of ANZ Bank in the Philippines to now a leader at Amazon Web services. Talk to you about your career path with all those different pivots. How did you get to where you are tonight? >>Yeah, I mean, honestly, I recognise that I don't have a traditional Orthodox career plan, but that's my intention. I'm somebody who has always been really interested in the world around me, and I would say that my biggest driver is learning and being curious, which, as you know, is an Amazon leadership principles. So it's probably not a surprise that I ended up here at Ws, but really for me when I thought about my career and I have thought about it intentionally. I've been willing to put my hand up and take risks where I think probably others around me were not feeling as safe, and that's that's a function of who I am. But it's also a function of what I see women wanting to and needing to do more in order to bring their career forward. So as you say, I started my I had a pure technical lens when I started my career, which was being a lawyer, and there's been a lot of time just learning that and holding that skill set, I knew Lisa even then that that was not what I wanted to do forever. I wanted to do more than simply sit in an office and negotiate documents. Um, even though that was an exciting career, there was more that I wanted to do. So off the back of that, I moved into banking and was able to to learn and build some really important skill sets in terms of thinking about being a leader. And those skill sets include things like running a balance sheet, managing people thinking differently about risking compliance, which then allowed me to guess, run a bank and run the business. And then finally, how did I then pivot into technology? Well, it was a long conversation. If I'm honest with you, you know, there were there were conversations back and forth and I thought to myself and doing the right thing here. But what I could see for sure was that the world was moving to a technological context and for me not to take an opportunity to do it. A job like running a technology business across Asia, particularly Japan, just It just wasn't a possibility for me. I had to take the opportunity. So here I am, >>And that's one of the most exciting things I think is that these days every company has to be a tech company. Every company has to be a data company, a digital company with one of the lessons we've learned in the last couple of years. But another thing that we've learned is you mentioned skill sets. But it isn't just about those hard skill sets. What are some of those key soft skill sets that you think are really outstanding and really help to break down the bias. >>Yeah, again, Really interesting. So as I'm talking to women, when they hear about my career journey, a lot of them are surprised. How could you move into technology? And I think the challenge is that a lot of women view technology simply as a coding context. They view it as something that only someone with technical skills can do, and that is simply not the case. So if you look at a recent study by Deloitte Access Economics in Australia, for instance, the soft, skill intensive occupations are going to account for two thirds of all jobs by 2030. So if you think about that having a pure technical skill set, so certainly if you're going to do something like be a solutions architect or be a coda, it's really important that you must have those skills. But technology businesses are building and growing like no other, so we need all of those soft skills, like project management like P and L. Accountability and responsibility, like learning how to manage teams. These are caused fuels that have nothing to do with kind of fundamental technology, understanding that business contacts is important, but there are a lot of women out there who could be working in technology now but are a little bit scared to do so because they're thinking maybe they don't have the skills and I would encourage them to think differently. >>I think your your background with your pivots is a great articulation of you can take so many different backgrounds law banking into tech There's probably a fair amount of overlap there, but you also have you have in and of yourself thought diversity because of your background. I think that's another important thing for women to learn how important that thought diversity can be in any sort of job that they do, whether they are in a technical field. Or maybe they're in finance or operations or sales for a technology company. You guys talk about builders at A. W S. Talk to me about what a builder is, what's that definition and one of some of those key skill sets hard and soft that those builders exemplify. >>Yeah, so we are very build focused at AWS because we're building on behalf of our customers. But what that means is that the trays that make you a builder are exemplified by our leadership principles. So things like being curious. As you just pointed out, Lisa, these are the tenants of being a good builder, um, pursuing continuous learning. So whilst you you may know that you're good at something, you're not scared of trying something else. You're not scared of training and learning about something else. Being able to look around corners, um, and take calculated risks. I mean, whilst it may sound like my career journey has been pivot, pivot, pivot. Actually, if we're honest that these have been very intentional moves that I've made with my career to try to learn, as I said, to try to grow, um, and I've been fortunate and have been intentional also about building that leadership profile, But that's because I'm really fundamentally interested in how business and how people are connecting across the world. And as I said to you in a building context, really, that's about learning about how to build and run digital businesses. And at the end of the day is I guess the key message that I would send to everyone out there getting involved in a career in technology is not a bad move. >>No, it's definitely not a bad movie. I love the curiosity angle. That's one of those things that I'd love to hear. How do you encourage that? One of the biggest challenges. If we look at the stats of girls in stem programmes, from primary school to high school to university, as we see the numbers going down, we see them going up in university. And then, of course, when we're in, we're looking at the raw tech numbers. The number of women in technical positions is quite low to your point. There's many other opportunities besides technical positions. How do you encourage women to not be afraid to raise their hand and ask a question, even if they think maybe this is a dumb question? >>Uh, it's such a I think, you know, honestly, we need to see more women in leadership roles. Um, and, uh, and I think it's incumbent upon the organisations that are are running our businesses, that they make this a priority because you can't see I'm sorry. You can't be what you can't see Lisa, Um, and so it's great for us to talk about it. But once we start seeing women having active business, led conversations. That's where we're really going to see the dial shift. I have a 13 year old daughter, Um, and she's deeply interested in everything on her computer. Um, and what I try to do is encourage her to think differently about the type of roles that she could have if she was interested in, say, for instance, graphic design. She loves drawing, Um, singing. There are so many ways you can do all those YouTube videos. Maybe not, but you know, ways in which you can engage with technology to pursue a career that's interesting to you, regardless of your gender. So maybe the first part is making sure that we are talking about female leaders and what they're doing. I think also what we can do is start building programmes where we're involving women in building skills and certification skills. So here we've got this amazing event which we've built called She builds and I'm an active mentor for that. And what that's all about is kind of connecting women in the tech community and those who are interested with programmes that really speak to the way that women are thinking about their roles. So we have like minded peers. We have senior leaders, We have certification skills, programmes, always part of that, and we also have male allies. It's really important to include our male allies in that conversation, and you will have heard about things like male champions of change. These are very important conversations because again, what we know from statistics is that women are not as likely to build networks and sponsors as men are. And that's not statement of Miss Mala intense. What it means is that they just learn differently and think differently as they're building their careers. So if we're starting to get a man involved in the conversation in a more meaningful way, it's a conversation that's inclusive, and that's really what I want to drive. So I'm not sure I answered your question, but I certainly got to a couple of points that I was interested in highlighting, which is it's a conversation that has to happen at a grassroots level at a leadership level and across the organisation in terms of metrics, data understanding where women are and how to build and grow them >>right. But one of the things that you said that I was about to say was, We can't be what we can't see. We need to be able to elevate those female leaders like yourself so that more younger women and even women who maybe have been in the field for a while, can see the opportunities, the leadership. But you also brought up another great point. And that is, and something I was going to ask you about who are who are some of your mentors. And I imagine it's not just all females. It's got to be men as well. As you point out, it's incredibly important to have the men as allies. >>Yeah, absolutely. And certainly I wouldn't even be having this conversation with you now if I didn't have some amazing allies, both men and women, by my side as I've tracked this leadership journey. Certainly, um, Phil Davis, who is the head of our commercial organisation, Greg Pearson. These are people who have taken time out of their careers to talk with me about how we can help to build and grow women leaders, and to me, that's impactful. And I feel that that's an authentic engagement because there is a recognition in technology that we need to do more around this issue, and I see senior leaders like Matt Garman leading into the conversation. So for me, that's that's very inspiring. But I can't I couldn't have answered that question without telling you that the people who probably inspired me most in the organisation and within my network are those young women out there who are female founders. Now you know, I'm going to have to say a couple of names because I get the opportunity. Lisa, I've got a part of the networking, a women's networking, um, and mentoring organisation. And we have women here in Singapore like Ping Ping Han, who is building out an environmental education and sustainability digital business. We've got Francesco Cuccia, who is building Go get. She's already built it, which is an on demand workforce platform, which has over 250,000 people online that are helping people in Malaysia to work and has helped immensely during Covid. So what we're seeing with these young women is that they're actually building the digital businesses of the future, and it's not about, I mean, what I'm seeing them do is invest their time and energy in building. As I said, kind of programmes and models that are sustainable. So they're building businesses not just for the bottom line, but also to help the communities in which we operate, which to me is deeply inspirational. >>Absolutely. And the female founders need much more visibility than they're getting and obviously much more funding. One last point that I want to bring up because this is really important is that there is some data that I know that you have about performance company performance. When there are females at the helm, talk to me a little bit about that, and how can we help get that word out there more? Some more organisations understand the potential they have when they got that thought. Diversity. >>Yeah, it's such a wonderful point, and it's so well made now across the across media. But I feel like we need to double down on it because this is not a piecemeal conversation about doing the right thing. Um, sometimes we view it that way, and of course it is the right thing to have equity and diversity in our workplace. But in fact, there's so much data around how a diverse workforce creates better outcomes for business So in 2020 we had a McKenzie survey that found that companies with more than 30% of women executives were more likely to outperform companies with this percentage. So there is now a huge amount of data that's starting to show us what a diverse. And this is not just about gender. This is also about diversity across various lenses culture, ethnicity, minority groups, etcetera. So and for me, Lisa, it's just common sense. So if you're building a business that is trying to reach the most number of customers, it really is intuitive that you need to have all of those customers represented around the table. If you only have a single point of view, you're not going to represent all of those customers out there. And increasingly, those customers are expecting to be represented as part of your conversation in your business. So it totally makes sense from a business lens to build and recruit a diverse workforce. >>I couldn't agree more. One. I like to have one more question. Talk to me really quickly, briefly about how how are you building your teams to promote effectiveness through that diversity that, as you just described, can be so leading edge. >>Yeah, So what I'm doing is being intentional in my hiring practises. So this is something that all leaders can do. >>And that is really >>carefully about filling the roles in my organisation, where I'm given a role to fulfil, making sure that I'm looking at that diverse candidates, not just the same candidates who might have applied before. And that means sometimes throwing the net a bit wider than what you might usually have and thinking differently about the candidates that are applying. So, for instance, in my team, we have 50 50 men and women. Um, and we all come from very diverse backgrounds. We've got Indian, we've got Singaporean, we've got Australian talent, which means we've got a gender and cultural mix, which is actually, as I said, bringing a very different lens to the conversation when we're trying to solve customer problems. And what I would say is collaboration and respect is the cornerstone of the way that we should be. Building teams and diverse perspectives mean that our teams and the outcomes that we build are going to reflect the complexity of both the cross cultural and the divers, gender lens within which all of our customers are doing business today. >>Anna, thank you so much for joining me today, talking about the intentional pivots that you've made in your career, how inspiring those are two others and also how we're making progress on breaking the bias. My pleasure. >>Lisa. It's wonderful to join you. And thank you always think you for bringing us so much interesting data >>for Anna Greene. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cubes. Coverage of International Women's Showcase 2022.

>>Mm. >>Okay. Hello, and welcome to the Cubes Coverage of the International Women in Tech Showcase featuring National Women's Day. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We have a great guest here of any theory a PJ head of aerospace and satellite for A W S A P J s Asia Pacific in Japan. Great to have you on many thanks for joining us. Talk about Space and International Women's Day. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks, John. It's such a pleasure to be here with you. >>So obviously, aerospace space satellite is an area that's growing. It's changing. AWS has made a lot of strides closure, and I had a conversation last year about this. Remember when Andy Jassy told me about this initiative to 2.5 years or so ago? It was like, Wow, that makes a lot of sense Ground station, etcetera. So it just makes a lot of sense, a lot of heavy lifting, as they say in the satellite aerospace business. So you're leading the charge over there in a p J. And you're leading women in space and beyond. Tell us what's the Storey? How did you get there? What's going on. >>Thanks, John. Uh, yes. So I need the Asia Pacific business for Clint, um, as part of Amazon Web services, you know, that we have in industry business vertical that's dedicated to looking after our space and space customers. Uh, my journey began really? Three or four years ago when I started with a W s. I was based out of Australia. Uh, and Australia had a space agency that was being literally being born. Um, and I had the great privilege of meeting the country's chief scientist. At that point. That was Dr Alan Finkel. Uh, and we're having a conversation. It was really actually an education conference. And it was focused on youth and inspiring the next generation of students. Uh, and we hit upon space. Um, and we had this conversation, and at that stage, we didn't have a dedicated industry business vertical at A W s well supported space customers as much as we did many other customers in the sector, innovative customers. And after the conversation with Dr Finkel, um, he offered to introduce me, uh, to Megan Clark, who was back back then the first CEO of the Australian Space Agency. So that's literally how my journey into space started. We had a conversation. We worked out how we could possibly support the Australian Space Agency's remit and roadmap as they started growing the industry. Uh, and then a whole industry whole vertical was set up, clinic came on board. I have now a global team of experts around me. Um, you know, they've pretty much got experience from everything creating building a satellite, launching a satellite, working out how to down link process all those amazing imagery that we see because, you know, um, contrary to what a lot of people think, Uh, space is not just technology for a galaxy far, far away. It is very much tackling complex issues on earth. Um, and transforming lives with information. Um, you know, arranges for everything from wildfire detection to saving lives. Um, smart, smart agriculture for for farmers. So the time of different things that we're doing, Um, and as part of the Asia Pacific sector, uh, my task here is really just to grow the ecosystem. Women are an important part of that. We've got some stellar women out here in region, both within the AWS team, but also in our customer and partner sectors. So it's a really interesting space to be. There's a lot of challenges. There's a lot of opportunities and there's an incredible amount of growth so specific, exciting space to be >>Well, I gotta say I'm super inspired by that. One of the things that we've been talking about the Cuban I was talking to my co host for many, many years has been the democratisation of digital transformation. Cloud computing and cloud scale has democratised and change and level the playing field for many. And now space, which was it's a very complex area is being I want kind of democratised. It's easier to get access. You can launch a satellite for very low cost compared to what it was before getting access to some of the technology and with open source and with software, you now have more space computing things going on that's not out of reach. So for the people watching, share your thoughts on on that dynamic and also how people can get involved because there are real world problems to solve that can be solved now. That might have been out of reach, but now it's cloud. Can you share your thoughts. >>That's right. So you're right, John. Satellites orbiting There's more and more satellites being launched every day. The sensors are becoming more sophisticated. So we're collecting huge amounts of data. Um, one of our customers to cut lab tell us that we're collecting today three million square kilometres a day. That's gonna increase to about three billion over the next five years. So we're already reaching a point where it's impossible to store, analyse and make sense of such massive amounts of data without cloud computing. So we have services which play a very critical role. You know, technologies like artificial intelligence machine learning. Help us help these customers build up products and solutions, which then allows us to generate intelligence that's serving a lot of other sectors. So it could be agriculture. It could be disaster response and recovery. Um, it could be military intelligence. I'll give you an example of something that's very relevant, and that's happening in the last couple of weeks. So we have some amazing customers. We have Max our technologies. They use a W S to store their 100 petabytes imagery library, and they have daily collection, so they're using our ground station to gather insight about a lot of changing conditions on Earth. Usually Earth observation. That's, you know, tracking water pollution, water levels of air pollution. But they're also just tracking, um, intelligence of things like military build up in certain areas. Capella space is another one of our customers who do that. So over the last couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months, uh, we've been watching, uh, images that have been collected by these commercial satellites, and they've been chronicling the build up, for instance, of Russian forces on Ukraine's borders and the ongoing invasion. They're providing intelligence that was previously only available from government sources. So when you talk about the democratisation of space, high resolution satellite images are becoming more and more ridiculous. Um, I saw the other day there was, uh, Anderson Cooper, CNN and then behind him, a screenshot from Capella, which is satellite imagery, which is very visible, high resolution transparency, which gives, um, respected journalists and media organisations regular contact with intelligence, direct intelligence which can help support media storytelling and help with the general public understanding of the crisis like what's happening in Ukraine. And >>I think on that point is, people can relate to it. And if you think about other things with computer vision, technology is getting so much stronger. Also, there's also metadata involved. So one of the things that's coming out of this Ukraine situation not only is tracking movements with the satellites in real time, but also misinformation and disinformation. Um, that's another big area because you can, uh, it's not just the pictures, it's what they mean. So it's well beyond just satellite >>well, beyond just satellite. Yeah, and you know, not to focus on just a crisis that's happening at the moment. There's 100 other use cases which were helping with customers around the globe. I want to give you a couple of other examples because I really want people to be inspired by what we're doing with space technology. So right here in Singapore, I have a company called Hero Factory. Um, now they use AI based on Earth observation. They have an analytics platform that basically help authorities around the region make key decisions to drive sustainable practises. So change detection for shipping Singapore is, you know, it's lots of traffic. And so if there's oil spills, that can be detected and remedy from space. Um, crop productivity, fruit picking, um, even just crop cover around urban areas. You know, climate change is an increasing and another increasing, uh, challenges global challenge that we need to tackle and space space technology actually makes it possible 15 50% of what they call e CVS. Essential climate variables can only be measured from space. So we have companies like satellite through, uh, one of our UK customers who are measuring, um, uh, carbon emissions. And so the you know, the range of opportunities that are out there, like you said previously untouched. We've just opened up doors for all sorts of innovations to become possible. >>It totally is intoxicating. Some of the fun things you can discuss with not only the future but solving today's problems. So it's definitely next level kind of things happening with space and space talent. So this is where you start to get into the conversation like I know some people in these major technical instance here in the US as sophomore second year is getting job offers. So there's a There's a there's a space race for talent if you will, um and women talent in particular is there on the table to So how How can you share that discussion? Because inspiration is one thing. But then people want to know what to do to get in. So how do you, um how do you handle the recruiting and motivating and or working with organisations to just pipeline interest? Because space is one of the things you get addicted to. >>Yeah. So I'm a huge advocate for science, technology, engineering, math. We you know, we highlights them as a pathway into space into technology. And I truly believe the next generation of talent will contribute to the grand challenges of our time. Whether that climate change or sustainability, Um, it's gonna come from them. I think I think that now we at Amazon Web services. We have several programmes that we're working on to engage kids and especially girls to be equipped with the latest cloud skills. So one of the programmes that we're delivering this year across Singapore Australia uh, we're partnering with an organisation called the Institute for Space Science, Exploration and Technology and we're launching a programme called Mission Discovery. It's basically students get together with an astronaut, NASA researcher, technology experts and they get an opportunity to work with these amazing characters, too. Create and design their own project and then the winning project will be launched will be taken up to the International space station. So it's a combination of technology skills, problem solving, confidence building. It's a it's a whole range and that's you know, we that's for kids from 14 to about 18. But actually it, in fact, because the pipeline build is so important not just for Amazon Web services but for industry sector for the growth of the overall industry sector. Uh, there's several programmes that were involved in and they range from sophomore is like you said all the way to to high school college a number of different programmes. So in Singapore, specifically, we have something called cloud Ready with Amazon Web services. It's a very holistic clouds killing programme that's curated for students from primary school, high school fresh graduates and then even earlier careers. So we're really determined to work together closely and it the lines really well with the Singapore government's economic national agenda, um so that that's one way and and then we have a tonne of other programmes specifically designed for women. So last year we launched a programme called She Does It's a Free online training learning programme, and the idea is really to inspire professional women to consider a career in the technology industry and show them pathways, support them through that learning process, bring them on board, help drive a community spirit. And, you know, we have a lot of affinity groups within Amazon, whether that's women in tech or a lot of affinity groups catering for a very specific niches. And all of those we find, uh, really working well to encourage that pipeline development that you talk about and bring me people that I can work with to develop and build these amazing solutions. >>Well, you've got so much passion. And by the way, if you have, if you're interested in a track on women in space, would be happy to to support that on our site, send us storeys, we'll we'll get We'll get them documented so super important to get the voices out there. Um and we really believe in it. So we love that. I have to ask you as the head of a PJ for a W S uh aerospace and satellite. You've you've seen You've been on a bunch of missions in the space programmes of the technologies. Are you seeing how that's trajectory coming to today and now you mentioned new generation. What problems do you see that need to be solved for this next generation? What opportunities are out there that are new? Because you've got the lens of the past? You're managing a big part of this new growing emerging business for us. But you clearly see the future. And you know, the younger generation is going to solve these problems and take the opportunities. What? What are they? >>Yes, Sometimes I think we're leaving a lot, uh, to solve. And then other times, I think, Well, we started some of those conversations. We started those discussions and it's a combination of policy technology. We do a lot of business coaching, so it's not just it's not just about the technology. We do think about the broader picture. Um, technology is transferring. We know that technology is transforming economies. We know that the future is digital and that diverse backgrounds, perspective, skills and experiences, particularly those of women minority, the youth must be part of the design creation and the management of the future roadmaps. Um, in terms of how do I see this going? Well, it's been sort of we've had under representation of women and perhaps youth. We we just haven't taken that into consideration for for a long time now. Now that gap is slowly becoming. It's getting closer and closer to being closed. Overall, we're still underrepresented. But I take heart from the fact that if we look at an agency like the US Mohammed bin Rashid Space Centre, that's a relatively young space agency in your A. I think they've got about three or 400 people working for them at this point in time, and the average age of that cohort John, is 28. Some 40% of its engineers and scientists are women. Um, this year, NASA is looking to recruit more female astronauts. Um, they're looking to recruit more people with disabilities. So in terms of changing in terms of solving those problems, whatever those problems are, we started the I guess we started the right representation mix, so it doesn't matter. Bring it on, you know, whether it is climate change or this ongoing crisis, productive. Um, global crisis around the world is going to require a lot more than just a single shot answer. And I think having diversity and having that representation, we know that it makes a difference to innovation outputs. We know that it makes a difference to productivity, growth, profit. But it's also just the right thing to do for so long. We haven't got it right, and I think if we can get this right, we will be able to solve the majority of some of the biggest things that we're looking at today. >>And the diversity of problems in the diversity of talent are two different things. But they come together because you're right. It's not about technology. It's about all fields of study sociology. It could be political science. Obviously you mentioned from the situation we have now. It could be cybersecurity. Space is highly contested. We dated long chat about that on the Last Cube interview with AWS. There's all these new new problems and so problem solving skills. You don't need to have a pedigree from Ivy League school to get into space. This is a great opportunity for anyone who can solve problems because their new No one's seen them before. >>That's exactly right. And you know, every time we go out, we have sessions with students or we're at universities. We tell them, Raise your voices. Don't be afraid to use your voice. It doesn't matter what you're studying. If you think you have something of value to say, say it. You know, by pushing your own limits, you push other people's limits, and you may just introduce something that simply hasn't been part of before. So your voice is important, and we do a lot of lot of coaching encouraging, getting people just to >>talk. >>And that in itself is a great start. I think >>you're in a very complex sector, your senior leader at AWS Amazon Web services in a really fun, exciting area, aerospace and satellite. And for the young people watching out there or who may see this video, what advice would you have for the young people who are trying to navigate through the complexities of now? Third year covid. You know, seeing all the global changes, um, seeing that massive technology acceleration with digital transformation, digitisation it's here, digital world we're in. >>It could >>be confusing. It could be weird. And so how would you talk to that person and say, Hey, it's gonna be okay? And what advice would you give? >>It is absolutely going to be okay. Look, from what I know, the next general are far more fluent in digital than I am. I mean, they speak nerd. They were born speaking nerd, so I don't have any. I can't possibly tell them what to do as far as technology is concerned because they're so gung ho about it. But I would advise them to spend time with people, explore new perspectives, understand what the other is trying to do or achieve, and investing times in a time in new relationships, people with different backgrounds and experience, they almost always have something to teach you. I mean, I am constantly learning Space tech is, um it's so complicated. Um, I can't possibly learn everything I have to buy myself just by researching and studying. I am totally reliant on my community of experts to help me learn. So my advice to the next generation kids is always always in this time in relationships. And the second thing is, don't be disheartened, You know, Um this has happened for millennia. Yes, we go up, then we come down. But there's always hope. You know, there there is always that we shape the future that we want. So there's no failure. We just have to learn to be resilient. Um, yeah, it's all a learning experience. So stay positive and chin up, because we can. We can do it. >>That's awesome. You know, when you mentioned the Ukraine in the Russian situation, you know, one of the things they did they cut the Internet off and all telecommunications and Elon Musk launched a star linked and gives them access, sending them terminals again. Just another illustration. That space can help. Um, and these in any situation, whether it's conflict or peace and so Well, I have you here, I have to ask you, what is the most important? Uh uh, storeys that are being talked about or not being talked about are both that people should pay attention to. And they look at the future of what aerospace satellite these emerging technologies can do for the world. What's your How would you kind of what are the most important things to pay attention to that either known or maybe not being talked about. >>They have been talked about John, but I'd love to see more prominent. I'd love to see more conversations about stirring the amazing work that's being done in our research communities. The research communities, you know, they work in a vast area of areas and using satellite imagery, for instance, to look at climate change across the world is efforts that are going into understanding how we tackle such a global issue. But the commercialisation that comes from the research community that's pretty slow. And and the reason it's loads because one is academics, academics churning out research papers. The linkage back into industry and industry is very, um, I guess we're always looking for how fast can it be done? And what sort of marginal profit am I gonna make for it? So there's not a lot of patients there for research that has to mature, generate outputs that you get that have a meaningful value for both sides. So, um, supporting our research communities to output some of these essential pieces of research that can Dr Impact for society as a whole, Um, maybe for industry to partner even more, I mean, and we and we do that all the time. But even more focus even more. Focus on. And I'll give you a small example last last year and it culminated this earlier this month, we signed an agreement with the ministry of With the Space Office in Singapore. Uh, so it's an MOU between AWS and the Singapore government, and we are determined to help them aligned to their national agenda around space around building an ecosystem. How do we support their space builders? What can we do to create more training pathways? What credits can we give? How do we use open datasets to support Singaporeans issues? And that could be claimed? That could be kind of change. It could be, um, productivity. Farming could be a whole range of things, but there's a lot that's happening that is not highlighted because it's not sexy specific, right? It's not the Mars mission, and it's not the next lunar mission, But these things are just as important. They're just focused more on earth rather than out there. >>Yeah, and I just said everyone speaking nerd these days are born with it, the next generations here, A lot of use cases. A lot of exciting areas. You get the big headlines, you know, the space launches, but also a lot of great research. As you mentioned, that's, uh, that people are doing amazing work, and it's now available open source. Cloud computing. All this is bringing to bear great conversation. Great inspiration. Great chatting with you. Love your enthusiasm for for the opportunity. And thanks for sharing your storey. Appreciate it. >>It's a pleasure to be with you, John. Thank you for the opportunity. Okay. >>Thanks, Manny. The women in tech showcase here, the Cube is presenting International Women's Day celebration. I'm John Ferrier, host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mm mm.

>>Yeah, yeah. Okay. Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Coverage of reinvent 20 twenty-one Jon, your host of the Cube. We're here. Live in person for a real event. It's a hybrid event is a live stream of action to cube sets here, wall to wall coverage dot com. And, of course, you don't need to check the coverage out. And Amazon has got their own live event site. Go check out all the action. Stewart, See two of Micro Focus, the company That was part of the big announcement involving the mainframe modernization that Adam announced on stage and his first keynote CEO. And under the covers Micro Focus powering a lot of that functionality. Stuart, thanks for coming on. The break it down with >>Thanks. >>So what does the announcement? I mean that that Adam gave the i b. M. I mean the mainframe announcement that I've known for the main frame, but he had the mainframe modernization program. What's that all about? >>I think I'd like to think of this is the next evolution of the main frame for those customers that have been running on the main thing for 40 years. They had their business on it. Where do they go next? What does the future? What does the future hold? And this is all part of the announcement yesterday is this is the journey that many, many customers are going to decide to go on. >>So it's all about the relationship between A. W S and micro Focus. Obviously, Um, yeah. I was talking about migration for the Oracle, and a lot of our customers have these main friends that are in the classic data centers. And he told me personally when I interviewed him that the main part of that data center mindset that people are chipping away at now they want to move them out and keep some functionality, but for the most part, migrated out eventually. Yeah, This is where you guys are involved. Take us through why that's important. >>I think it's the next level of agility that it is actually delivered for many customers. They need to move a hell of a lot faster than they currently are. Let's face it, the world is changing at pace. The applications support these customers need to also a change of pace. What a W s does give this market and momentum which is, Where do we go next? Where do we take customers where workloads have been running the business? Where? How are they going to run the business in five years time? How they're gonna run their business in 10. >>Well, congratulations on microphone. Big part of the announcement. Specifically explained to me, Micro focuses role in the announcement with a W S. What's the relationship? >>I think they're too old to call it out. Actually, we've been working with A W S for many, many years. This isn't something that radically new. We've been engaging with them for literally 10 years, at least. But the key elements Microphone provides technology That's an enabler to facilitate delivering the service as well as the competency partner to help customers actually accelerate their journey to take advantage of it. >>So we're bundling micro focus into that capability. Is it software that you guys have? What's going on the covers? >>I think it's software. It's capability. It's expertise. It's everything that a customer might need to help and be successful. Our job is to a W S H A W s job to make sure the customer is absolutely satisfied. >>Give me an example of a customer mainframe. I'm a bank. I've been using the main frame and just squeaked Time to get my back up before I turned the light in the morning. It's just working. It's coming. It's pumping it all cylinders, my cobalt program or just quit. What do I do? How do you help me? >>Well, I think there are two reasons why you can give us a call Is number one? Yeah, You need to move your business of pace. So what's going to run your business going forward? So you need to understand your applications. Number two, the cost profile of your existing infrastructure is going to be incredibly expensive. So what you wanna do is essentially make the change accelerate the change delivered at a much lower cost. >>So it looks like the application. So the software Okay, what's the app? And then create a replica of digital twin? I'm just trying to visualized. Now I see what you mean. What happens because, I mean, you know what? That is A big deal with that animal for a long time. What happens next is a container eyes. That application, >>the customer determines how far they want to go if they would like the application to run in the cloud exactly as is so it supports their customers exactly as they expect today. We can do that. On the other hand, if they need to enhance the experience for their customers if they need to take it into a completely different environment. If they do want to contain, arise if they want to take it into new levels of service. If they do want to leverage artificial intelligence and machine learning, then again they can determine the journey. Micro focus is that essentially support them. Do that first step, which is get the applications ready to be delivered into cloud as fast as possible. >>Congratulations. Relationship. I guess I've got to ask you a question. Which on my mind is that Okay? It's the death of the mainframe. Long live the mainframe. You know the expression, uh, mainframe dying. I'm gonna hang around for a while. The dinosaurs are out there. >>I think it is. We like to position there is an evolution. We don't think the main friends gonna die. There will be customers who want to stay there, and we respect their choices. But on the other hand, this is a way to truly accelerate the future of mainstream applications. >>You know, student, I talked to a lot of success and C E O. S. And they tell me the same thing when they moved into the cloud. White hardcore is pretty much the main or critical laps to get the edges first moved into the cloud. And then they come and they start chipping away at the main, the main core and then slowly move it out because they don't want to get in there and disrupt so disruptions. A huge concerns. How does this new, um, modernization Tranz, uh, migration program for the mainframe ensure that disruption doesn't happen? What? I'm sure that's on their mind >>as well. I think what you're describing is what's the cut over when you're running on the main street today? You wanna run on the main from tomorrow, You know, if that's the case, or do you want to run the main from today and you want to run the cloud tomorrow? Essentially, the cut over is the same. The process is fairly separate from the mainframe itself. You obviously bringing applications off. We're getting them ready to go tested, you know, regulated. So it's been approved securities all in place, and then essentially, it's literally a switch cut. We literally have customers that turn off the main frame and, you know, they're already running in the cloud, and then we don't even have some that photographs of them shipping mainframe out the door. >>So I've got to ask, Is there a party at that point? You know, some people do >>that. It's certainly true. Remember that people are also going along for this journey, and they're not, You know, it's a big moment for them. >>You know, I hate the sound of today's my birthday. So I have to say this, Um, I remember when I was breaking into the business in my twenties. I never I never program punch cards, But remember pointing at the mainstream guys are seeing those old relics. I guess that's what I would be today. But the young guns coming into the industry, they want containers. They want micro services. They want cloud and see what's going on here. I mean, some really cool stuff happening. >>Uh, they want to take advantage of all the stuff that is there and every single announcement has been made today and yesterday on the days ahead. All of those great capabilities if you can get them into the core of your business. And so the key is to actually take us running your business today, enhance it and improve it and take it forward. I >>think I think the key points great insight on your part about this cut over because people know what that means. It's a project plan. Cut it over, get set up. And I think that's the hard part. How hard is that? On the cloud side, In terms of staging, can you share some timetables with me? Just kind of Give me a feel for order of magnitude Mainframe. Assuming, pumping it snap I'm using. I really can't shut it down, but I want to put it on. How much time to prepare to get into the cloud? Um, roughly just order of magnitude. Most >>customers, they tend to face these things they're not trying to. If you're a really big bank, you are not gonna do that overnight. That isn't gonna come as a surprise. But what we're gonna do is we're gonna take it in chunks and typically 12 to 15 months, which is the biggest step of the journey, which is going from mainframe to cloud. The next generation is going to be modernizing those applications, and it's going to be much short timeframes. Then you're getting into months, weeks, days >>after that. Is there any category that you see that are more susceptible to migration? You mentioned banks. I know some banks that they will never going to touch the mainstream because it's just so critical that the migration longer is there. Other areas of your insurance is a big market mainframe. Is the verticals that kind of like a more converting than others? >>Well, yes. But actually, I take it back. One of the reasons are these applications absolutely critical to these businesses. If they are, that's the reason why they're still running where they are, because they're really truly valuable. They are the business, so you're you're taking the business into new framework. So in that context actually tends to be financial services insurance, as you say, but also government, For example, the federal government, state and local as well as you move into retail. And it's surprising how often as you go into some of the other verticals where some of these mainframe applications are still existing. >>I hate to ask a question, because I don't know. So I want to ask, Um, and you can see it's a dumb question. If you think it is. Just tell me, Are there still cobalt programmers out there? >>There are to be clear. Actually, it's not a problem. You can train a new guy and literally weeks. If the issue is, yeah, actually use the mainstream itself, the mainstream experience about how it works as getting rarer. And so the key element is, how can how can you take the new young guns, give them, give them the application and see what they can do? This is a mechanism to do that. >>Great, Great announcement. Congratulations. I was really impressed at the moment. I'm actually surprised to see Adam kind of focus on that. But again, in the spirit of the traditional, uh, reinvent jazzy before Adam and he did the same thing with Oracle and all the other kind of big the legacy old guard they call them Technologies maintains one. You guys are part of that. So congratulations. Final word. Your take on the event so far. What's been the feedback on the announcement? Share some color commentary on what the feedback for you guys >>were. Actually, since the announcement, we've had some great customer conversations. I mean, there are a lot of businesses that really do want to make this change. We're kind of there to help them. And that's really the next step, which is what needs to happen to make that a reality. >>Amazon may not like me saying it, but I think there's some cases where you keep them in there and you don't touch. It works there. You keep it unless you wanna move. But if you want to move it, people, sometimes we want to move faster. And just there >>even a W s respects customer choice. The purpose is to meet the demand for the customer. And if the customer to sounds great, if they want to move off, we're there to help >>with the mainframe. Long live the main friends. The Cube coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John. I love the mainframe Thirty-seven terminal. When I worked at the back in the eighties getting myself, um, thanks for coming in. And I appreciate it. Okay. Coverage here in Las Vegas. The Cube. You're watching the leader in global tech event coverage? I'm your host. Thanks for watching. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, mhm, yeah.

>>Yeah. Hey, everyone, Welcome to the cubes. Continuous coverage of AWS Re invent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier were running one of the industry's largest and most important hybrid tech events with AWS and massive ecosystem of partners. Right now there are two live cube sets to remote sets over 100 guests on the programme and we're pleased to welcome back one of our alum I to talk about the next generation and cloud innovation. Georgia Lisa is joins John to me, the director of product management for EC two edge at A. W S George. Welcome to the programme. >>Glad to be here in person. Thanks Great to be here in person. Awesome to be here in person. Finally, >>one of the things that is very clear is the US flywheel of innovation and there was no slowdown with what's happened in the last 22 months. Amazing announcements, new leadership. We talked a little bit about five g yesterday, but let's talk more about that. Everyone is excited about five g consumers businesses. What's going on? >>So, yeah, I wanted to talk to you today about the new service that we launched called AWS Private. Five g. Essentially, it's a service that allows any AWS customer to build their own private five g network and what we try to do with the services make it that simple and cost effective for anyone without any telco experience or expertise, really, to build their own private five g network. So you just have to go to your AWS console. Um, describe the parameters for network simple stuff like, Where do you want it to be located? The throughput, the number of devices and AWS will build a plan for your network and seep you everything that you need. Just plug it together. Uh, turn it on and the network automatically configures itself. All you got to do is popular sim cards that we send you into your mobile devices and you have a private five g network working in your your premise is >>one of the things that we know and love about AWS is its customer obsession. It's focused on the customer's that whole flywheel of all the innovation that comes out as Adam was saying yesterday to the customers, we deliver this, but but you wanted more. We said we deliver this, but you wanted more. Talk to me a little bit about some of the customer catalysts for private five G. >>Actually, one of the good examples is where we are right now. More and more AWS customers need to connect an increased number of devices, and these devices become more data hungry. You know they need to push data around. They also become more and more wireless, right? Uh, so when you are trying to connect devices in the manufacturing floor, bit sensors, you know, connect the tracks, forklifts or in a convention centre. You look at how many devices there are around us. When you're trying to connect these devices with a wired network, you quickly run into physical problems like it's. It's hard to lay cable anywhere, and customers try to use for many of these use cases. But as a number of devices grows into the thousands and you know you need to put more and more data around, you quickly reach the limitations of what the WiFi technology and also WiFi is not really great at covering really open, large space. So that's where these customers, you know, think of college campuses, convention centres, manufacturing floors, all of these customers. Really? What they need to be able to do is to level the power of the mobile networks. However, doing that by yourself is pretty hard. So that's what we aim to to enable here we are waiting to enable these customers to build very easily and cost effectively their own. Uh, >>Okay, George. So I have to ask. I'm truly curious. I love this announcement. Um, because it brings together kind of the edge story. But also, I'm a band with love. I love more broad. Give me more broadband. Faster, cheaper and more broadband. How does it work? So take me through the use case of what do I need to deploy? Do I need to have a back haul connection? What does that look like? Is there a certain band with requirements? How big is the footprint? What's the radius? Just walk me through. How do I roll this out? >>Yeah, sure. Some of that stuff actually depends on your requirements, right. How How big? How much of a space do you want to cover? Basically, what we see, if you were in preview right now, so we're sipping you. The simplest configuration, which is basically these things called small cells there, you know, radio units and antennas. And all you have to do is connect them to your local. The network has Internet access. These things connect and automatically had, you know, connect home to the cloud and basically integrate and build up your whole network. All all you need is that Internet connection, and I don't know what to do. Now, how big is the network? You can You can make it pretty big. You can cover hundreds of thousands of square feet with with cellular networks with mobile networks. Um, you know, the bigger you they especially want to cover the more of these radio units. We're gonna stop you, uh, >>classic wireless radios. >>Yes. You >>light up the area with five g connected to the network. That's your choke point. The big of the pipe >>took the bigger pipe. That toxic. I mean, well, there, there's two. There's two things to consider here. There is local connectivity. So devices talking to each other, and there was connectivity back to somewhere else, like the Internet or the cloud. There are use cases, for example. Let's say data video feeds that you want to push up to do some inference in the cloud. In these use cases, you're basically pushing all of the data up. There is no left. There's no East West connectivity locally, and that's where our simplest configuration works best. There are other, uh, use cases where there is a lot of connectivity and devices talk to each other locally, like in this place, for example, right in this. In these cases, we can sip you that second configuration where we actually see Pew, a managed hardware WS managed hardware on premises, and that runs the smart of the network and allows all of your data traffic to remain local. That's >>wavelength Outpost, or both. >>A different configuration of A. W s private five G. It's a managed service. We take. We take care of it. You basically it's very It has a pricing model, which is very customer friendly because you like multi W services. You can start with no upfront fees. You can scale and pay as you scale because >>it's designed to deploy easily. >>Yep, deploys the >>footprint. Just I'm just curious if the poll is it like, it's like an antenna. Is it like so and >>yeah, well, the antenna is, you know, the small cell. They call them small cells in, you know, in in cellular land there, this big. And you can you can hide this. There is actually a demo in the Venetian of the private service. So you can you can actually see it in action, but yeah, that thing can cover 10,000 square feet, just one of them. So you can >>go out and put a five g network downtown and be like the king. >>You could Yes. You could have your own private network. You can monetise that next >>on the Q. >>Great stuff. >>So in terms of industries adopting this, you gave us some examples. Obviously. Convention centres, campuses, universities. I'm just curious, given the amount of acceleration that we've seen in every industry the last 22 months where organisations must become digital. They depend on that for their livelihood. And we saw this all these pivots, right? 22 months ago. How do we survive this? How do we thrive? Are consumers now are whether it's an injury or consumer or enterprise. Have this expectation that we're gonna be able to communicate no matter where we are 24 by seven. Whether it's health care, financial services. I'm just curious if you're seeing any industries in particular that you think are really prime for this private five >>G. Yeah. So manufacturing is a is a really great example because you have to cover large spaces. You have thousands of devices, sensors, etcetera and using other solutions like WiFi does not provide you the depth of capabilities like, for example, you know, advanced security capabilities or even capabilities to prioritise traffic from some devices over others, which is what a five G network can do for you. But also, you know, it involves large spaces both indoors and outdoors. We, you know, actually, Amazon is a really great example of you know of using this. We're working with Amazon fulfilment centres. These are the warehouses that fulfil your orders when you order online. Um, and they are a mix of indoor space and outer space, and you can think of, you know, I don't know if you've seen pictures or videos. There's robots running around their sensors everywhere. There is packing lines, etcetera, all of these things in order to operate performantly, but also securely and safely for the people that are around. You need to be well connected at a very high reliability rate. Right? So, uh, Amazon for two networks is actually using private A W s private five G to connect all of these devices. The really key thing here is you don't have to go drop 1000 of these access points we're talking about you. Can you can. You can probably cover your space with 5 10 of these. So your operational expenses, your maintenance goes down and there is less interruption of your normal operations like you can't. You don't have to stop your manufacturing line for someone to come in and fix your WiFi access. >>It's great for campuses like college campuses, college >>campuses, a great one. We you know, we've worked with college campuses, including the CME University in the past two, you know, with some of our partners to, uh, to to deploy. So >>that's how close you have these distribution, gas systems, distribution, whatever they call it accelerate whatever amplifies into get extra coverage, this seems to be a good fit. Um, for that how you mentioned in the preview? How do people get involved? Is there like a criteria. How was it going to >>be available to get priority? Don't get you >>tell them ready to jump in. Take us through the programme. What's the plants? >>So currently we're you know, we're in that preview mode. So we're keeping you this small configuration, the simpler configuration. You can sign up on the AWS website and you know, we, as we scale our operations are supply chain. Because this involves also, you know, hardware, etcetera. We're gonna go to general availability g A over the next few months and we have both configurations open. So I I encourage everyone who is interested go to the W s website and sign up. We're asking to get that in customers' hands because we're getting overwhelmingly positive feedback on what we built. >>This is transformative. I mean, clearly what you're talking about here is going to transform industry and help organisations transform themselves and outpaced the competitors that are in the rear view mirror Aren't going to be able to take advantage of this were on the show floor. We've got lots of people here. Where can people actually go and see this preview tested up? >>There is an actual demo in the Venetian. I can't remember. Sorry, I can't remember the room. I think it's on the Yes, actually, it's on the floor on the third floor where the meeting rooms are on outside 35 or one. If anyone wants to go, we're >>going to start buying lunch time. >>Yes. Yeah, you can see it in action. And, you know, you could You could see a future where everything, You know, you look around. There's thousands of devices here. You could power all of these devices with a single cell and, you know, really scaled throughput >>in the five G. Just curious, um on the range is better than wifi >>ranges. Better outdoors, >>obviously, or factories. What's the throughput on the >>depending on the spectrum that you choose? And that's actually a really good save way. The device, the service that we built, its spectrum agnostic so it can be used on right now. We're using it on what we call C BRS spectrum, which is the free for all you can. You know, you can you can use it yourself. But also, customers can bring their own spectrum. And we're working with a batch of, uh, CSP operators to build advanced bundles where you can work this on licence spectrum. So if you're going up the spectrum in what they called millimetre wave >>spectrum owner to bring your own licence, >>you could So telco right? You could be a telco, bring your, you know, and work with us as a partner or some actually, actually, manufacturing customers have purchased rights to small spectrum bands so they can use those in combination with this service to deploy. So to your original question, as you're going back up the spectrum, you can drive more and more throughput. You it's not. It's not unheard of to drive one gig. You know what's so >>The low hanging fruit is the the use cases that have critical need for edge connectivity manufacturing? Um, certainly the retail or whatever that they help do the deployment >>we can. We can. We can see this being applicable because because you can start super small. You can see this being applicable even to branch offices, right? Like, uh, let's say I was talking to a customer yesterday. They were thinking or have all these branch offices. I don't even I don't even want to have I thought either he just wants something that's very quickly and easily. You know, I can manage centrally and it just connects. >>Can I should have fixed wireless shot to the wavelength order to have back all with wire >>too. Oh, they actually we are planning to. You know, I talked about where the smarts of the network live in the they can live in a region, they can live in the locals, and they can live in a wave election. So we're combining more and more of these products as well. And it's computing, obviously, is a is an obvious thing that, you know, we should be working on >>incredible work, George, that you and the team have done transforming industries. And I don't know if a feeling there might be a cube to Is it? Would it be too dot >>Oh, John, >>he's ready. Big George, Thank you so much for joining joining me today. It's great >>to be here. Thanks for having that >>for John Ferrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube, the global leader in live coverage. Mhm

>>Mhm. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage of AWS Re Invent 2021. Live from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin with John Ferrier We have to live sets to remote studios over 100 guests on the Cube at this year's show and we're really excited to get to the next decade in cloud innovation and welcome from the keynote stage. Mark Ruin the Chief Network Officer Andy VPs Dish Network Mark, Welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you. >>Enjoyed your keynote this morning. So big news coming from AWS and dish you guys announced in the spring telecom industry First dish in AWS have formed a strategic collaboration to reinvent, reinvent five G connectivity and innovation. Let's let's really kind of dig into the AWS dish partnership. >>Yeah, you know, we're putting our network in the cloud, which allows us to have a different speed of innovation and a much more corroborative way of bringing new technology. And then we have access to all the developer ecosystem of AWS. So that's but as you say, it's a world first to put the telco in the cloud. >>And so the first time the five g network is going to be in the cloud, and it was also announced I'm curious, uh, that Las Vegas is going to be the first city live here. We are sitting in Las Vegas. What's the any status you can give us on >>that? So we're building across the US and Las Vegas is a place that we've built and we better testing. So that's where we have all run and we're testing all sorts of traffic and capability with our people and partners live here at the same time that we have the reinvent and, uh, Bianco around. We're also starting to test new capabilities like orchestration, slicing things that we've never seen any industry. So that's pretty exciting, I >>have to ask you. In the telecom industry, there has been an inflexion point around cloud and cloud Impact Ran is opening up new opportunities. What is the telecom industry getting and missing at the same time? Because it seems to be two schools of thought cloud pro cloud ran and then hold onto the old way. >>I think everybody would like to go to Iran and the cloud, but it's not as easy if you have a big installed base. So for us. You know, we all knew it. It's easy so we can adopt the best technology and the newest. But of course, if you have a big instal base, there is going to be a transformation, if you wish. So you know, people are starting trying to set the expectation of how much time it will take. But for us, you know we are. We're moving ahead because we're building a completely new network. >>It's a lot easier than well, it's a relative term. It's >>really much more fun. And we can We don't have to make compromises, right? So but it's still a lot of work, you know, we're discovering we're learning a lot of things. We're partners. >>What if you have a clean sheet of paper or Greenfield? What's the playbook to roll this out across the campus for a large geographic area? >>Yeah, so pretty much You have the same capability in terms of coverage and capabilities than anybody else, but we can do it in an automated manner. We can do it with much thinner and efficient hardware, pretty much hardware with a few accelerators, so a bit of jargon. But, you know, we just have access to a larger ecosystem and much more silicon and all the good things that are coming with the cloud >>talk to us about some of the unique challenges of five G that make running it in the cloud so much more helpful. And then also, why did you decide to partner with AWS? Clearly you have choice, but I'd love to know the backstory on that. >>Yeah, I've been in the telco industry forever, and I've always seen that our speed of innovation was to slow. The telco is very good at reliability. You know, your phone always works. Um, it's very reliable. You can have massive traffic, but the speed of innovation is not fast enough. And the the applications that are coming on the clouds are much faster. So what we wanted to marry is the reliability of the telco and and all the knowledge that exists with the speed of the cloud. And that's what we're doing with bringing their ecosystem into our ecosystem to get the best of two worlds. >>Lots of transformation in the vertical industries. We heard from Adam today on stage vertical with ai machine learning. How does that apply in the telco world because it's an edge you got. See, sports stadiums, for instance. You're seeing all kinds of home impact. How is vertical specialisation? >>Yeah. So what is unique about the cloud is that you can observe a lot of things, you know, in the cloud you have access to data, so you see what's happening, and then you use a lot of algorithms. We call it Machine Learning Analytics to make decisions. Now, for us, it means if you're a stadium, you're going to have a much better visibility of what's happening. Where is the traffic? You know, people moving in and moving out? Are they going to buy some food awards? So you see the traffic and you can adapt the way you steal the traffic the way you distribute video, the way you distribute entertainment to how people are moving because you can observe what is happening in the network, which you can't do in a classic or legacy five g network. So once you observe, you can have plenty of ideas, right? And you can start innovation again, mix a lot of things and offer new services. >>In this last 22 months, when we saw this rapid pivot to work from home. And now it's work from anywhere, right? We talk about hybrid cloud hybrid events here, but this hybrid work environment talk to me about the impact that that decision A W s are going to have on all of those companies and people who are going to be remote and working from the edge for maybe permanently. >>Yes, you say, You know what is important is that people want to have access to the to the cloud to the services, the enterprise from wherever they are. So as a software architect, I need to make sure that we can follow them and offer that service from wherever they are in a similar manner today. If you're making a phone call, you don't have to think if you're connecting to the Web, you know, through WiFi through this and that, you have to think we want to make it as simple as making a phone call. In the past, where you always connected, you always secured. You always have access to your data. So that's really the ambition we have. And, of course, with the new remote abbots, the video conferencing that's the perfect time to come with a new offer. >>And the Strand also is moving towards policy based. You mentioned understanding video and patterns. Having that differentiated services capability in real time is a big deal. >>Yeah, that's a big deal. Actually, what enterprise want? They want to manage their policy, so they want to decide what traffic gets, a premium access and what traffic can be put in the background. You want to update your computers? Maybe that's not a premium price for that. You can do it at any time, but you want to have real time, customer service and support. You want premium? And who am I to decide for an enterprise? Enterprises want to decide. So what we offer them is the tools to create their policy, and their policy will be a competitive advantage for them when they can different change. >>And this brings up another point. I want to ask you. You brought this up earlier about this. The ideas, the creativity that enables with cloud you mentioned ideas will come out. These are this is where the developers now can really encode. This is the whole theme of this Pathfinders keynote. You were up on stage. This is a real opportunity to add value. Doing all the heavy lifting in the top of the stack and enabling new use cases, new applications, new expectations. >>You know what I tell to my engineers? My dream as an engineer is to be, uh, developer friendly. I want people to come to us because it's fun to work in our environment and try things. And a lot of the ideas that developers will have won't work. But if they can spin it off very fast, they will move to that killer application of killer service very fast. So my job is to bring that to them so that it's very easy to consume and and trying to live And, you know, just like bringing >>candy to a baby here. >>Yeah, cause right And have fun and, uh, and discover it for yourself and decide for yourself. >>I gotta ask your questions in the Telecom for a while. We've been seeing on the Cube earlier in our intro keynote analysis that we're now living in an era with SAS applications. No more shelf where now, with purpose built applications that you're seeing now and horizontally scalable, vertically integrated machine learning. You can't hide the ball anymore around what's working. You can't put a project out there and say no, you can't justify. You can't put you can put lipstick on that. You can't know you're seeing on >>that bad cake. Yeah, it's all the point of beta testing and market adoption. You try, you put it there. It works. You say the brake doesn't work. You try again, right? That's the way it works. And and in Telco, you're right. We were cooking for a year or two years, Three years and saying, Oh, you know what? That's what you need. It doesn't work like this faster now. Yeah, Yeah. And people want to be able to influence and they want to say, I like it. I don't like it. And the market is deciding. >>Speaking of influence, one of the things we know we talk a lot about with A W S and their guests is their customer. First customer obsession focused. You know, the whole reason we're here is that is to serve the customer, talk to me about how customers and joint customers are influencing some of the design choices that you guys are making as you're bringing five due to the cloud. >>So what is important for us? We have to dreams, right? The first one is for consumers. We want consumers to have access to the network so that they feel that they are VIP and often I know you and I, sometimes when we're connected to the network with tropical, we don't get the feeling where a V i p So that's something that's a journey for us to make people feel like they get the service and the network is following them and caring about them for the enterprises. You want to let them decide what they want. You were talking about policy building. They want to come with their own rating engine. They want to come with their own geographical maps. Like here. I have traffic here. I don't need coverage. So we want to open up so that the enterprise decide how they invest, how they spend the money on the network >>giving control back to the end user. Whether that's a consumer or enterprise, >>absolutely giving control to the end user and the enterprises. And we're there to support and accelerate the service for them. >>Mark, I want to ask you about leadership. You mentioned all these new things. Are there your dreams? And it's happening Giving engineers the canvas to paint their own future. It's gonna be fun is fun as you're affecting that change. What can people do as leaders to create that momentum to bring the whole organisation along is their tricks of the trade. Is their best practises >>Absolutely their best practises? Um, we were very much following develops where, you know, as a leader, you don't know, you're just learning and you're exposing and you're sharing. Uh, we're also creating an open world where we're asking all our partners to be open. Sometimes, you know, they feel like a bit challenge. Like, do I want to show what I'm doing? And I would say, Yeah, sure, because you're benefiting between each other. Um, And then you want to give tools to your engineers and your marketers to be fast speed, speed, speed, speed so that they can just play and learn. And at the end of the day, you said it. It's all about fun. You know, if it's fun, it's easy to do >>that. We're having fun here. >>That is true. We always have fun here. Last question for you is talk about some of the things that AWS announced this morning. Lots of stuff going on in Adam's keynote. What excites you about this continued partnership between AWS and Dish? >>Yeah, we were. We were surprised and so happy about AWS answer to when we came in with the first one to come big time in the telco and the Cloud was not ready. To be honest, it was Enterprise and Data Club and AWS. When is going all the way, we've asked to transform their cloud to make it a telco frantic, loud. So we have a lot of discussions about networking, routing, service level agreements and a lot of things that are very technical. And there are a true partner innovating with us. We have a road map with ideas and that's pretty unique. So, great partner, >>I was going to say it sounds like a really true >>trust and partnership. We're sharing ideas and challenging each other all the time, so that's really great. >>Awesome and users benefit consumers Benefit enterprises benefit Mark Thank you for joining Joining me on the programme today. Georgia Keynote enjoyed hearing more about dish and AWS. And what are you doing to power? The future. We appreciate your time. >>Thank you. Thank you >>for John Ferrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube? The global leader in tech coverage, So mhm. Yeah.

>>Yeah. Welcome back to a W s reinvent 20 twenty-one. This is the live. In addition, the last year, of course, it was virtual. This is probably the most important hybrid event of the year. Over 20,000 people. We have two sets here at the Cube. My name is David. I'm really excited to have Caroline see more on the vice president of product marketing at Serato, which is now an H p e company. And Daniel, who is the director of worldwide partner Essays at A W s. Folks, welcome to the good to see you. >>Yeah, great to be here. So, >>Caroline, you got some news. Why don't we start their hard news? We always like to start with that. >>First of all, I think I just like to talk a little bit about the acquisition because it has been acquired by H. P. And in September, we announced, um, disaster recovery as a service is part of the Green Lake platform. And so that's really exciting. Both from, uh, customers as well is also H B customers. But the innovation continues here at a W s reinvent, we are announcing a new solution 02 in cloud, which is a disaster recovery for Amazon. Easy to, um, and if I think about the value that it brings to the customers, it's delivering orchestrated disaster. Recovery is delivering that simplicity at scale and scale is very important aspect because it will deliver that from tends to thousands of work clothes and as well, it's helping organizations to drive more operational efficiencies around their processes. So that's sort of a nutshell of the news. The cloud for a W s >>great. Thank you for that. So I wanna ask you, obviously, in lock down, people look to the cloud. Uh, and you know, data protection used to be just back up, and then people realize that recovery is important, but it used to be a bolt on an afterthought. You sort of launch the application of the service. And so we got to protect this thing and whatever and throw it on there that that's unacceptable. Today, if you're not going to run your digital business with a bolt on, So what? Our customers telling you in terms of what they want to see from their data protection portfolios and how are you seeing the ecosystem and a W s helping them to integrate that >>absolutely well to your point, the pandemic has absolutely accelerated a lot of businesses movement into the cloud. So companies that hadn't formerly thought about using cloud technologies are now doing that. And for them, in order to have a very simple and easy and scalable data protection solution, is critical for them to feel comfortable into moving into a W s. And so that's what we're seeing from a lot of customers. Um, and of course, back to your point about recovery with the challenges around ransomware, Um, that is definitely an area where a lot of companies have just done their back up. But they're also testing it and making sure that it's something that they know that they can rely on, um, as they moved there, workloads into the club. >>And speaking of ransomware, I mean, it's just front and center. Anybody can be a ransomware. Today they go in the dark web by ransomware service. They put a stick into a server and then bad things happen. Hopefully that that individual ends up in handcuffs, but not always so when we've seen Ransom's getting paid $40 million ransom's multi-million dollar. And we all know about the fact that our front and center So what are you seeing in terms of the customer base? How How h b n z two helping and where does a W s fit? Maybe you could start off Caroline. >>Great question, because I think from the perspective, we look at it from the need for recovery. Uh, strategy as part of your overarching, um, security and prevention is is one aspect that you always need two prevention. But to us, it's a matter of not if you're going to be attacked. It's when and when that gets through your firewall. And so you need to be able to have a recovery strategy in place that allows you to recover in minutes to set to within seconds of when that when an attack actually happens. And, um, I can give a case in, for example, for there's a company 10 Carter Protective fabric, textiles manufacturing company, MULTI-MILLION business. And they suffered to to a tax crypto attack first time, and they were using more traditional, um, back up to take. And it took him two weeks to recover having been attacked, and they suffered significant data loss, and then they deployed photo photo. Um, unfortunately, a little while later, they were attacked a second time with more sophisticated case of So it continues. Um, but this time the recovery was very different. What happened was that they were able to recover within minutes and they had seconds of data loss. And that is because of r c d p technology C D. P. Being continuous data protection. And that is with our replication and a unique journaling capability that allows you to, uh, set up the different checkpoint. So you have thousands of recovery points and you can recover to a specific recovery point with within seconds of that attack. Very, very powerful. >>I wanna ask you a question and what Caroline was just talking about with the classic metrics in this business r P O R T r P o recovery point objective. Always say, how much data do you want to lose? And people say none. Okay, how much? What kind of budget do you have? So that's always been the trade-off, although, as you mentioned, it's getting a little bit more cost-effective and then recovery time objective. How long does it take you to get back up. Absolutely. So so. Those are some of the concepts that you were talking about. I wanna ask you, Daniel, it feels like an Caroline. You feel like data protection is now becoming. It's certainly a tight adjacent to overall security. It's not security per se sick of it, so but it's but it's becoming. The lines are blurring. How do you see that you have a shared responsibility model? Where does this whole topic fit in? >>Well, I think lots of companies are really finding a lot of value in their data, right. Whereas, you know, perhaps years ago it was less. It was easy to hang on to it, to actually make it valuable to do metrics and analytics on it to do machine learning, perhaps on it. And so, by having, um, products such as the product, you know, they're now able to hang on to that data and make sure that they have it in perpetuity so that they can do what they need to do on it. So, yes, we're seeing, you know, companies that were traditionally storage cos thinking about security, security cos thinking about data, so yes, all of those lines are being blurred for sure. And I think that, you know, as far as the short security model we think of the you know, we think of our partners and ourselves, obviously as extensions. And we're really looking to have the best customer experience that we can >>can I think every company security company, Obviously you impact enterprise care a lot about security A W s. I don't know any company because I don't really care about security. That's that's not my swim land out of business. If you If you had that attitude now. So from from your standpoint, where does it fit inside of you know, you're you're thinking, How are you guys thinking about security and data protection? Back up and recovery? Is it all just coming together or they still kind of separate entities? >>No, you're absolutely right. It is coming together, and what we're seeing is we're having a lot more conversations with ISO's, um so the more the security offices of organizations and I think what's happening is that's where the budget is to. And so you're saying they're sort of the working together on the I T and also the Office of Security to um so we're having more conversations there, and we see that, as I mentioned before, the recovery strategy is a key element of our focus. And what we can do is part of the overarching strategy of an organization. >>So what? How should we think about the cloud? Is it another layer of protection? Um, is it a replacement for tape? Maybe not, but we need as much protection as possible. So how should we think about the cloud in the context of data protection? >>Well, the cloud, Yeah, absolutely. Um can provide an alternative to tape or, um disc, for example, of this year. We also added support for a mutability preserved for A W S. With so we are ensuring in the fact that you know you can be changed so that that's absolutely critical. >>So that's a a right once read only technology. That's a service that you tap. So your integrating zero was integrating with that capability. So that's another layer of protection. That's another layer of protection. And then, of course, you know there's there's gaps, is another part of the strategy. So let's talk strategy for a minute. What's the I know it's not one size fits all, but what are you seeing as best practice strategies for customers to protect themselves against traditional just human error? Cyber attacks? What's the what's the sort of prevailing approach? How should we think about that? >>Well, I mean, you're absolutely right. Those the, you know, the filed elections, the database corruptions, and so our solutions, that is, our continuous data protection. It absolutely is, um, the ability to be able to get that granular level of recovery, which you can do with backups. I'm not saying that backup isn't part of your overall strategy, but if you're actually trying to recover quickly and within seconds to whether it's an attack to whether it's a file deleted, a database corruption, you need that continuous data protection. And that's something that you need to us that we've been delivering since the day that um was formed. So >>that's your secret sauce is it is a very granular ability to dial down based on your r p o. That's requirements based on the application requirements, uh, and then bring in the cloud for things like mutability. Maybe gapping. Maybe Last resort is still the last resort. I don't know. Maybe >>there. So, um, you know, a w s to be a target for disaster recovery. So all back up. >>You talk about that? >>Yeah. So, with what we have enabled is first of all, if you want to, um, my great, your work clothes to a W s. And we're seeing an awful lot of that. We provide that capability. So the mobility aspect, if you are looking at instead of an on premises disaster recovery site, you can use a W S D R site. Um, And if you want to back up to a W s and use, um, cost efficient storage, we support that with cloud tearing and mutability. And as I say today, we're announcing cloud for a W s, which is once you've got your work clothes in a W s. We can protect them now in, um, in a W s itself. So the full spectrum. And then earlier this year, we announced for communities for US work clothes, So we're really trying to ensure that we can protect any A W s workload wherever it is. >>So I look around here pretty impressive given that we're in the second year of a pandemic here, pretty packed floor. But the ecosystem is just exploding. That's gonna make you feel good. Cos like choosing to partner with a W s leaning in writing to your cloud-native fooling. Maybe give us the update on how you see this partnership. >>Well, I mean, just to Caroline's earlier point, you can see how Xero is continuing to innovate, right? And that's really key. So, um, having a cloud-native solution and then also having a solution that works for us. We're seeing a lot of companies thinking about containers thinking about server lists. And so, you know, the best partnerships that we have are the ones in which they're innovating with us continuously. And I've known about since I started in 2014. So they've been around for a long time, and they're continuing, um, to do that. And they are working closely with us to do P O. C. D. S. And and to help our customers really get what they need, um, in the data protection space and continuing to innovate, which is >>your customers, they want that they need that your your deep into data protection. Yes. You're scale of cloud But you're not going to have the the capabilities of Stack. So that one plus one hopefully is greater than to How do you where can we find out more information about you know, the new solutions? What's the what's the call to >>action culture as well? A couple of things. We've, uh we just We just launched deserted for a W s hands-on lab. And what that does is allow in your own time in your own environment to be able to try with a W S as a target and back up. Um, so we've just launched that and that enables you to see how it works with a W S. We also have for communities, um, lab as well, so you can see how it works with a K s. Uh, coming soon, we're going to have to in cloud lab that you can actually see how to protect your workload in the cloud in a W s. So those are the really the best ways to be able to Well, for a call to action is try. The lab really is >>awesome. Guys, thanks so much for coming to the Cube. Very important topic and keep up the good work. >>Thank you. Thank you. Very well. So >>we're seeing the evolution of data protection rethinking data protection in 2020. No longer is it a Bolton cloud modernization with deep stacks. Fine granularity for your r p o. But also quick recovery protection from Ransomware. It's a whole new world, and we're here to cover it. My name is David. You're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. We'll be right back. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Mm, yeah.

>>Mm. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage of A W s reinvent 2021 were running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events of the year with A W S and its ecosystem partners. And, of course, special thanks to a M D for supporting this year's editorial coverage at the event we got to live sets we had to remote sets one in Boston, one in Palo Alto. We've got more than 100 guests coming on the programme and we're looking >>deep into >>the next decade of cloud innovation. We're super excited to be joined by Ali Zafar, who is the senior director of platform strategy and operations at Dropbox Ali. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Awesome. It's a pleasure to be here with you, Dave. >>So Hey, what's your day job like at Dropbox? What's your role? >>Got it? Yeah. So I actually oversee the global supply chain at Dropbox. Also all of the capacity planning which entails both our budget and also capacity requirements and Dropbox. And then I also focus on the platform product management side which is basically building our build vs buy and our overall roadmap for our platform in the long run. >>Great. Thank you. So I mean, everybody knows Dropbox, But maybe you can talk a little bit about your business, your mission and how that's evolved. Over the past several years. >>Dropbox is a global collaboration platform, and our mission at Dropbox is to help design a more enlightened way of working. Dropbox has over 700 million registered users and over 550 billion pieces of content. So taking a step back, they've dropbox health. Let's use all of your content. Think of this as videos as music. Even your tax returns allows you to organise all of this content. And then you can share this content with anybody at any time. You can also take Dropbox to work. And actually, it makes you even more productive in the workplace integrating all of your tools seamlessly, also allowing you to collaborate with all of your teams internally and also externally. >>Yeah, so thank you. Uh, when Dropbox was founded, I mean, the cloud was really nascent, right? So it was early days, and so a lot has changed since you know, the mid last decade. And of course, with remote work and hybrid work that had to be a real tailwind to your business. But maybe you could explain your cloud and your hybrid cloud strategy. >>You're spot on Dave. So Dropbox has always been hybrid since its inception in 2000 and seven. And when I say hybrid, I mean, we have our own on prime infrastructure, and then we also leverage Public Cloud. Now, Public cloud still to these days remains absolutely critical for Dropbox to serve all of its customer needs. And when we talk about the decision between public or private, we think about three or four key things. One is the total cost of ownership. Look at the market. We also look at our customer requirements and the latest technology that's available in the market and then any international data storage requirements to make the decision of going towards public or private for that specific use case. >>So what if we could follow up on that? Like maybe you can talk about the key business, these conditions as a as a SAS storage provider? What are the real drivers in in your business framework? >>Got it at the end of the day, what really matters for us. There is to actually think about our customers and delight them And what better than to focus on performance, reliability and also security. Right. So we want to make sure that the infrastructure that we have today allows Dropbox to actually solve for the specific use case for our customers. What do they care about while also doing this in a very efficient management Manage, uh, way So to summarise that looking at performance, looking at liability, looking at scalability, looking at efficiency and then also compliance >>So that leads me to My next question is about the EC two instances that you use. I know you. You make heavy use of AMG compute. How >>did you >>come to that decision? Was that these factors was all performance. How did you migrate to really enable that capability? How complex was that? >>MD has has been a key strategic partners the partnership as well over 4 to 5 years right now and we've been leveraging them on our on prem infrastructure for compute. So we've always had aimed in our infrastructure. And when the time came where aws was also leveraging some of the MD instances, we wanted to see how we can expand the partnership with AMG and A W S and also experiment with these instances. So we looked at some of the tooling updates that were required. We also looked at specific instances which are either compute optimised and memory optimised instances. And then we actually build our footprint on M D. And what we saw is that the overall performance improvements and also cost improvements that we got for specific workloads. It was actually extremely, uh, overall awesome results for Dropbox and our customers, and we have been using them ever since. >>What kind of business impact did that make that make a difference to your business? That was noticeable >>on the business side, I think primarily it was more on the TCO side, which is where we got most of the benefits on the cost side. Um, and then also for some of our internal work clothes, we also saw benefit, uh, to our internal developers that are using some of those work clothes. >>Well, so you guys have kind of become the poster child for hybrid. A lot has been talked about about you all, but I wonder if you could help us understand what part of your infrastructure is going to be better served by public cloud versus kind of doing your own. I t on Prem. What are some of the value drivers that are that are making, you know, push workloads into the public cloud? Help us understand that better and squint through that >>got ready. I get asked that question a lot. So public cloud in general allows for faster go to market, Think about this as, like product launches teacher launches also international expansion. It allows us to scale and then also leveraging some of the existing technologies out there in the market for some of the common workloads. So just, you know, taking a step back and thinking about Dropbox. We keep on evaluating also the criteria and then also specific workloads on what makes sense on private or public load. And a W s had some instances, like as three rds and EC to that when we started looking at, we knew that some of our key services, like data platform, some parts of our, um, Melania and even paper platform would make more sense for us to actually leverage. Uh, some of these in public cloud for that. >>So what are the sort of characteristics of the workload that are sort of better suited to be in AWS? You know, what's the ideal workload profile? You know, we talk about ideal customer profile. What's the ideal workload profile for the for the AWS Cloud. >>Got it. So the way we think about it, at least we call it the rule of three at Dropbox. Um, and that means we look at scale. First, we look at technology and innovation. Um, and what I mean by that is, is there faster innovation in the public cloud? And is the workload common enough that there's already a lot of work going on in public Cloud? Then there's no reason for us to actually innovate faster than that. We probably can't. And if the scale is not large enough, right? So when we talk about our storage side like magic pocket, the scale is large enough. We're innovating. There makes sense, and it's better for the end customer, so we will probably go towards private cloud there. But then, when we talk about like international expansion, when we talk about, like, faster go to market or some of the innovation in the space. It really makes sense to use public Cloud because of all of the advancements that we've seen there. >>Yeah, so let me circle back to the sort of business benefits and impact of the sort of a MD based compute specifically. But you talked about TCO before. So there's certain things you mentioned on Prem you sometimes use You mean right. If the thing is hardened, you don't want to necessarily rip and replace it. But if you can accelerate, go to market and you spin up things in the cloud that makes sense. You mentioned customer requirements. So that's just kind of depends. And then the international expansion and scale. So it kind of comes down to those whatever. Four or five factors, right? Tco those other factors that I mentioned kind of the high level benefits, if you could, wouldn't mind summarising for us. Ali. >>Yeah, I think you're spot on there. So it's looking at the overall Decio, right? The cost of serving the overall cloud looking at like go to market in general, like can we leverage public cloud and go to market faster? Obviously, meeting that end customer requirements. We also looked at like international expansion, like any of the customer's data that is stored outside of the US is all on public load for Dropbox. Uh, no plans in the short term to do something different there, Um and then also just looking at, like I mentioned anything in the technology space that is ongoing, that we can leverage features side or the product side for our customers, like at Yale or, uh, VRML. We are going to leverage Public cloud there. >>So of course you know we've we've followed the progression of semiconductor technology for decades. This industry has marched to the cadence of performance improvements. What are the one of the futures hold from a technology roadmap standpoint, particularly as it relates to leveraging AMG EC Two instances, Ali >>got it. So drop boxes in a very unique position where we actually leverage AMG both on Prem and for public le leveraging some of the AWS EC two instances like like you mentioned and epic processors from MDR what we're using today, both on the hybrid infrastructure site and the performance and also the d. C o benefits are real and something that we are observing on a day to day basis. So we are gonna be leveraging that technology even in the future. Um, and the partnership with the MD continues to be very, very strong for Dropbox. >>Well, I really, really appreciate you coming on the cube as part of our coverage is great to have You love to have you back sometime. >>Awesome. Thank you. And also just last thing we wanted to also call out that we are also going to be experimenting with probably Milan that is coming out. Uh, room is the current process is from a m D. That we have been leveraging. And as Milan comes available, we do wanna continue to evaluate it and see how we can fit it in our infrastructure. >>Okay, So their their generations are city based, the all Italian city based. They were going to run out of cities soon. >>God, uh, again, the partnership with both A W s and an M. D is something that I'm very proud of. Execution. Thank you, Dave. >>Great to have you, Ali. And really appreciate you watching. Keep it right there for more action on the cube. Your leader in hybrid tech event coverage. Mhm.

>>Welcome to the Cubes Coverage of Splunk.com 2021. My name is Dave Atlanta and the Cube has been covering.com events since 2012 and I've personally hosted many of them. And since that time we've seen the evolution of Splunk as a company and also the maturation in the way customers analyzed, protect and secure their organizations, data and applications. But the forced march to digital over the past 19 months has brought more rapid changes to sec UP teams than we've ever seen before. The adversary is capable. They're motivated and they're deploying very sophisticated techniques that have pressured security pros like never before. And with me to talk about these challenges and how Splunk is helping customers respond as jane wang is the vice president of security products that Splunk jane. Great to have you on the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Very nice to meet you. Thank you for having me. >>You're very welcome. So how d how can you think about or how do you think about the fact that the imperative to accelerate digital transformation has impacted security teams? How has it impacted sec ops teams in your view? >>Yeah. Well, just going back to our customers and what I've learned from all the customer conversations I have every every week many of our customers are under a massive digital transformation. They're moving to the cloud and the cloud opens up more attack surface, more attack work surface, there's more threats that come over cloud, new workspaces to attack services, new api is to manage secure and protect and our customers are really struggling to gain the visibility they need to really manage and secure across all that infrastructure. >>Yeah. And we've also seen the whole, obviously the work from home trend, the hybrid work movement, you know, people aren't set up for that. I mean, you remember people were ripping out literally ripping out desktops and bringing them home and you know, the home network had to be upgraded. So lots of changes there. And we've we've talked a lot in the cube jane about the fragmentation of tooling and the lack of qualified talent when we talked to see. So as you ask him, the number one problem, I can't get, I can't hire enough talent in the field of of cybersecurity. So I wonder if you can address how this has made it more difficult for security teams to maintain end to end visibility across their environments. What's the fundamental challenge there? >>Yeah, well you're really you're really nailing this. The fundamental challenges that many security products are not built to integrate seamlessly with one another. When I'm talking to customers, their frontline security operations teams often have 30 different consoles open on their monitor at one time and there really manual disjointed processes, the copying and pasting hash names and iP addresses from one consults the other. It slows them down. It really slows them down in protecting those threats. So because those products aren't assigned to integrate together and all that data from each of those security tools isn't brought into one place. It just exacerbates the challenge for security operations seems makes their job really, really hard to do. Which takes time. It takes time. It makes it harder to detect and respond to threats quickly and today more than ever we need to be able to detect and respond to threats quickly. >>Yeah, I do a weekly program called Breaking Analysis and once a quarter I look at the cyberspace and I use a chart to emphasize this complexity. It's it's a from a company called operative, I don't know if you've ever seen it but it's this eye chart, it's this taxonomy of the security landscape and it's mind blowing how much complexity there is. So how to Splunk help organization organizations address these challenges. >>Yeah, so I think bringing, we have one security operations platform cloud native cloud delivered. There are many parts of being able to streamline workflows for when you're first detect a threat or a potential threat right through to when teams close and immediate that threatened the changes in their environment to ensure they're protected. So the whole thing is helping security teams detects faster, investigate faster and respond faster to threat. There are four parts to that in our security operations, platform Splunk security cloud. The first one is advanced security analytics. So the nature of threats is evolving. They're becoming more sophisticated. We have very smart, well funded Attackers whose day job who spend all their time trying to break into organizations. So you need really advanced security analytics to detect those threats, then we need to automate security operations so that it's not so manual, so you don't have poor folks sitting in front of multiple consoles doing manual tasks to respond to those threats and make sure their organizations are protected. One key thing is that this year Splunk acquired true Star so that we can bring in d do rationalize multiple sources of threat intelligence and apply that threat intelligence both to our analytics and our operations so that you have broader insights from the security community outside Splunk and that intelligence can really help and speed both detection and response. And the last thing that's been true about Splunk since spunk became Splunk many many years ago is that we are committed to partners and we deeply integrate with many other security tools uh in a very seamless way. So whatever investments customers have made within their security operations center, we will integrate and bring together those tools in one workspace. So there's the big advantages I think you get when, when you run your security operations said transplant security cloud, >>that's a nice little description. And having followed Splint for so many years, it's sort of, it tracks the progression of your ascendancy. You know, you started you you we we used to have log analytics that were just impossible. You sort of made that much easier took that to advanced kind of use big data techniques even though Splunk really never used that term. But but you were like the leader and big data um in terms of being able to analyze um uh data to help remediate issues. The automation key is p pieces key the acquisitions. You've made a very interesting um you mentioned around de doop threat intelligence but also you've done some cool stuff in the cloud and we always used to say jane watch for the ecosystem. We early too early, you know, last decade we saw you as a really hot company. We said one of the keys to your growth is going to be the ecosystem. And you've you've clearly made some progress there. I wonder if you could tell us more About the announcements that you're making here at.com. >>Yeah. Well we're going back everything that we do on the security team, every line of code every engineer writes is all around helping detect, investigate and respond faster to really secure organizations. So if I look at those intern I start with faster time to detect what have we done. So bringing in the threat intelligence that I mentioned again, that's really gonna help to take new threats and to take them really, really quickly. You don't have to spend time going and looking manually at external sources of threat intelligence. It will be brought right in to enterprise security at your fingertips. So that that's pretty huge. We're bringing other more advanced content right into our stem enterprise security. So that will help detect threats that our research team sees as emerging again. This is going to just bring bring that intelligence right to customers where they work every day, um faster time to investigate. So this is this is really exciting uh back in november we reduced and we are really something called risk based alerting. That is an amazing new capability that we've iterated on ever since. And we have more iterations that we're announcing um tomorrow actually. And so risk based alerting pulls together what may have been single atomic alerts that can often be overwhelming to a sock brings those together into one overarching alert that helps you see the whole pattern of an attack, the whole series of things that happened over time. That might be an attack on your organization. One customer told us that that reduced the time it took for them to do an investigation from eight hours down to 10 minutes to really helping faster time to investigate. And then the next one is faster time to respond. So we have a new visual playbook editor for our sore security orchestration and response to which is in the cloud but also available on prayer. But that new visual playbook editor really reduces the need for custom code. Makes playbooks more modular, so it can help anyone in the security operations team respond to threats really, really quickly. So faster time to detect, investigate and respond those are, those are really cool for us. And then there's some exciting partnerships that I want to talk about just to really focus on reducing the burden of all those disparate tools on consoles and bringing them down and and integrating them together. So we'll have some announcements. There are new integrations that we're releasing with Mandiant Aziz scalar and detects. I'm personally very excited about a fireside chat that Kevin Mandia, the Ceo and president of Mandiant, we'll be having tomorrow with our Ceo Doug merit. So those are some of the things we're announcing. It's a big year for security. Very excited >>to tell you that's, that's key. I want to just kind of go through and follow up on some of the faster time to detect with the threat intelligence. That's so important because we read about how long it takes sometimes for for organizations to even find out that somebody has infiltrated their environment. This risk based learning, it sounds like and you're so right, it's like paper cuts having a bottoms up analysis. It's almost overwhelming. You don't have a sense as to really where the focus should be. So if you can have more of a top down, hey start here and sort of bucket ties things. It's gonna, it's gonna accelerate and then the faster response time. The thing that strikes me jane with your visual playbook editor is as you well know, the the way in which bad guys get in now they're very stealthy, you almost have to be stealthy in your response. So if you have to write custom code that's going to alert the bad guys that they're they're seeing now seeing code that they've never seen before, they must have detected us and then they escalate, you know, they get you in a harder, tighter headlock. Uh and I love the partnerships, you know, we, we followed the trend toward remote security. Cloud security, where's the scale is a big player, Amanda you mentioned. So that's that's great too. I mean it feels like the puzzle pieces are coming together. It's it's almost like a game of constant, you know, you're never there but you've got to stay vigilant. >>I really think so today. I mean it's been a great 12 months that's blank. We have done so much over the past year leading up to this.com. I'm very excited to talk to folks about it. I think one thing I didn't really mention that I kind of touched on earlier in the talk that we're having was around cloud security monitoring. So holistic cloud security monitoring. We've got some updates there as well with deeper integrations into G C P A W S Azure, one dr SharePoint box net G drive. Like customers are using many, many cloud services today and they don't have a holistic view across all those services I speak to see so every week that tell me they just really need one view. Not to go into each of those cloud service providers or cloud services, one at a time to look at the security posture, they need that all in a central location. So we normalize, we ingest and normalize data from each of those cloud services so you can see threats consistently across each of them. I think that's really, really something different that Splunk is doing um that other security offerings are not doing. >>I think that's a super important point and I do hear that a lot from CsoS where they say look we have so many different environments, so many different tools and they each have their own little framework so we have to go in and and investigate and then come back out and then our teams have to go into a new sort of view and come back out and and they just run out of time and they just don't again, lack of lack of skills to actually do this, can't hire half fast enough, can't train fast enough. So so that higher level view but still the ability to drill down and understand what those root causes. That's it's a it's a it's a top down bottoms up type of approach and and so as opposed to just throwing grains of sand at the second teams and then hoping, you know, they find the pearl, so jane, I'll give you the last word, Maybe some final thoughts. >>No, I just wanted to thank everyone for listening. I want to thank everyone for joining dot com 21. We're very excited to hear from you and speak with you. So thank you very much. >>Excellent. Great having you in the cube, keep it right there, everybody for more coverage of the cube. Splunk dot com 21. We'll be right back, >>Yeah.

>>Hi everyone. Welcome to the cubes coverage of eight of his public sector summit live in Washington D. C, where it's a face to face real event. I'm johN for a year host but virtual events. Hybrid events were hybrid event as well. We've got a great remote interview. Got a guest here in person, Jon Stankovic, president of cloud solutions. Smartronix and Britain was the VP of eight of his managed services, also known as A M. S with amazon web services, jOHN and jOHN and three johns here. Welcome to the cube remote >>in person. >>Hybrid. >>Thanks. Thank you. Great to be on the cube longtime viewer and I really appreciate what you >>do for fun to be here remotely but I feel like it right there. >>Yeah, I love the hybrid if it's only gonna get better next time will be in the metaverse soon. But uh, jOHn on the line there, I want to ask you with AWS managed services, take us through what you guys are doing with Smart Trust because this is an interesting service you guys are working together. How's that relates at the table for us. >>Yeah, well, you know, we're really excited about this announcement, We've been working with Smartronix since we launched A. M S 4.5 years ago. So we've been able to build up working with them, you know, a huge library of automation capabilities and this really just formalised as that in an offer for our joint customers where we can bring the expertise from AWS and Smartronix and offer a full solution that's highly integrated to help help our customers jointly accelerate their cloud adoption as well as their operating model transformation as they start to move to a more devops motion and they need help. We're there together to provide our expertise and make that simple for them. >>Well I appreciate the call. You john b john s over here. Js john Stankevich. Um tell me about Smart trust because you heard what's going on with devoPS to point a whole revolutions going on in devops, you're starting to see a highly accelerated modern application development environment which means that the software developers are setting the pace there, the pace car of the innovation, right? And so other teams like security or I. T. Become blockers. Blockers a drag and anchor. So the shift left on security for instance is causing a lot of problems on the security team. So all this is going on like right now so still the speed is the game. What's your take? >>Sure so absolutely. I think that's where this partnership really really excels. You know, we want customers to focus on their mission, you know, national security, health care outcomes. Um we want them to kind of take the rest off their plate. So when you say some of the quote unquote blockers around security uh Smartronix has invested heavily in a federally authorized platform that sits on top of what a WS has done from a Fed ramp and so right off the bat speed agility. We don't want our customers spending time replicating things that we've done at scale and leveraging what AWS has and so by kind of utilizing this, this joint offer all of a sudden a big part of that compliance is taken care of. Uh, and then things like devoPS, things like SRE models that you hear a lot about, we fold all that into this uh, combined service offering. >>I know a little about what you guys are doing. You mentioned SRE is very cool, but let's take a minute to explain what you guys are doing because you guys are on the cutting edge of solving a lot of problems from infrastructure fools around the deVOPS stack. What are you guys doing in the cloud services? >>Sure. So I think jOHN hit a little bit on it. But you know, we look at AMS as best in breed at scale managing core parts of the U. S. Infrastructure. What Smartronix does is many times customers have some unique requirements and we take that core kind of powered by aims and we try and fill in those kind of complementary skill sets and complementary requirements. And so something like the devops, which is basically making sure that those people developing that software, they have also the ability to manage it and on an ongoing basis. Kind of run it. We develop all the frameworks and that's part of this offering to enable that. >>What's the solution jOHN B because I think you guys don't, this is people have challenges. I want to understand those challenges. And then when they go to the external managed service, what's involved, you walk us through that? Because I think that's important. >>Yeah, sure. You know, it turns out jOHN nailed this one. That moving to the cloud can be, can be a big transformation for many, many enterprises and government teams. Right. They worked for many years and have an ecosystem in their traditional data center. But when they move to the cloud, there's a lot of moving pieces and so what we like to focus on is helping them with the undifferentiated aspects of safely and automating cloud operations. So working with, with Smartronix allows us to take what we're doing across the infrastructure services, around security, around automation, around patching instance management, container management, all of those uh, undifferentiated, heavy lifting passed by now with Smartronix and expertise across the application layer across customers, unique environments across federal and moderate the various government standards and compliance is, and we think we're able to get, take a customer um, from kind of really early stage cloud experience and rapidly deploy configure and get them into a very stable scalable posture operationally on the cloud so that they can start to invest in their people, their skills and their differentiated application on the cloud that really drive the differentiation in their business and not have to worry about best practice configurations and operational run books and, and and automation is and and and the latest dep sec ops capabilities that will pick up for them while they're training and getting, they're getting their emotions in place, >>jOHn is on the Smartronix side. Talk about the difference between scale okay. Which is a big issue with cloud these customers want to have with AMS but then you also have some scale, maybe some scale to but highly compliant environments, regulated industries, for instance, this is the hot areas because scale is unwieldy, but if you don't want get rain it in, it can be chaotic. Right? So also regulations and compliance is a huge issue. >>Yeah. What what we found is um, at times customers look at it and they just get frustrated because it can be kind of intimidating and we as a combined team really have spent a lot of time we have accelerators to walk customers through that process and a really flexible model. If they feel that they have a lot of domain expertise in it, then we'll just kind of be almost a supporter other customers look at it and say, you know, we'd like you to take the entire patch of that compliance and so highly regulated environments. Both commercial D. O. D. National Security, um federal civilian agencies, state and local, they're all looking to this and saying we really want someone that's been through things like the U. S. Audited managed service provider, things like they're managed security service provider, things like fed ramp or D. O. D. Ill four and five. And I think to be honest Smartronix has just invested heavily in that with the goal of reducing all that complexity and it's it's really been taken off and we really appreciate the partnership specifically with jOHn and uh the A. W. S. A. M. S. Team. >>All right so you guys were going together, what's the ultimate benefit to the customer? >>I can I'll give my thing right off the bat all this innovation coming out of A. W. S. Um It's fantastic but only if you have the ability to take advantage of it. And so thousands of new services being rolled out. We really want customers to be able to take advantage of that and let at times us do what we do best and let them focus on their mission. And I think that's what really AWS is all about and we just feel very fortunate to be an enabler of that >>john be talking about talking about the staffing issues too because one of the problems that we have been reporting and this has come up at every reinvest on the max. Peterson about this as well. He's promised last year was gonna train 29 million people. See how that comes out of reinvent when the report card comes back. I was kinda busting his chops a little bit there but he had a smile on his face I think is gonna hit the numbers a lot of times, Maybe people don't have an SRE they don't have a devout person or they have some staff that they're in transition or transforming this is a huge factor. What's your take on this, >>you know, that that is so important, you know, as john mentioned, it's all about helping the customers focused and and their their cloud talent is scarce and it's a scarce resource and you you want to make sure that your cloud talent is working on the cool stuff or they're going to leave and and as you train and skill, these folks, they want to focus on what really impacts the business, what's really differentiating doing, you know, doing the cloud and the necessities on operations and operational tasks and sec ops and things like that, sometimes, that's not the sexiest part of the work that the customer really wants to focus their team on. So again, I think together we're able to help drive high levels of automation and really do that day in and day out work that is not necessarily the differentiator of their business and that's going to attract and keep the best and brightest minds in these in these customers um which allows us to help them with the undifferentiated aspects of of the heavy lifting. >>Not only is availability of people, it's keeping the people, I love that great call out there, Okay, where does this go? Where's the relationship. So you guys are partnering, you have the M. S. Is going on? Strong managed services not gonna go away mormon people were using managed services. It's part of the ecosystem within the ecosystem. What's next in the relationship? >>Well, I think, you know, I'll speak first, john, I'm sure you've got some thoughts to, but you know, we've got so many things on our plate around predictive operations and the predictive capabilities that we're excited about tackling together. Obviously there's all sorts of unique applications that require even deeper capabilities and working with Smartronix to help us, you know, provide even greater insight into the application layer. So I kind of see us expanding um both horizontally as well as well as vertically and horizontally. We've got customers looking at the edge with the outpost solutions and we can snap into those capabilities as well. So there's a tremendous amount of kind of, I'd say vertical and horizontal opportunity that we can continue to expand it together, >>john your reaction, That's >>pretty right on Absolutely. I think john Berger really hit it and I think really machine learning, you know, that's a big area of focus, if you look at all this data is being collected, predictive modeling and so we have this kind of transition from a model where people were basically watching screens reacting and what the AWS MSP offer and what you know, AmS offers is really predicting, so you you're not doing that, you're not reacting, you're proactively ahead of things. And that's the honest truth is AWS is such a well run service. It just doesn't break, you know, it doesn't break like what you see in the traditional kind of legacy infrastructure. And so at times we're just continuing to climb that stack. As, as john mentioned, >>it's really interesting as you guys are, as you're talking, I'm thinking myself just go back a couple of years ago, eight years ago or so. DevoPS is a bad word. Dev's dominate up. So I was through them now, operational leverage is a huge part of this ai operations, um, the entire I. T service management being disrupted heavily by cloud operations that also facilitate rapid development models. Right? So, again, this is like under reported, but it's a really nuanced point hardened operations for security and not holding back the developers is the cloud scale. What's your guys reaction to that? >>Yeah, I completely agree. I think, you know, the automation piece of things and I think customers are still going through transitions. You know, traditionally managed services means a big staff and it's like I said, sitting there watching screens and you flip that model where you have developers actually deploying code and infrastructure to support it. It's, you know, it's very transitional and very transformative and I think that's where an offering, like what we've really partnered on really, really helps because at times it can be overwhelming for customers and we just want to simplify that. And as I've said, let them focus on their mission. >>Amen one last question before we break, because I was talking to another partner, a big part of AWS. Um, and we're talking about SAS versus solutions and sometimes if you're too Sassy, you're not really building a custom solution, but you can have the best of both worlds. A little professional services, maybe some headroom on the stack, if you will your building solutions. So the next question is, as you guys put this cutting edge innovative innovative solution together, how are your customers consuming it? Like what's the consumption? I'm assuming there must be happy because a lot of heavy lifting being taken away, they don't have to deal with house the contract process. >>Well, you know, I think, you know, we have the opportunity, we support customers and kind of all modes of their application stack. So, you know, a full stacks solution. You know, even a legacy architecture moving to the cloud requires a high degree of automation to support it. And then as those applications become modernized over time, they become much more cloud native at some point, they might even become a full stack Starzz offer. So many of our customers actually run their SAAS platform leveraging our capability as well. So, you know, I think it gives the customer a lot of optionality uh, and future kind of growth as they modernize their application stack. >>Yeah, john your reaction. Absolutely. >>I think one of the greatest benefits is it's freeing up funds to do mission work. And so instead of spending time procuring hardware and managing it and leasing data center space, they literally have more funding. And so we've seen customers literally transform their business because this piece of it's done more efficiently and they have really excess and really additional funding to do their mission. >>We love the business model innovation, faster um, higher quality, easy and inexpensive. That's the flywheel gentlemen, Thank you for coming on and get the three. John john thank you. Vice President Cloud Solutions. That Smartronix, thank you for coming on. John Barrington BP of amazon websites managed. There is a also known as AWS and A M. S. A W. S got upside down. W. M. Looks the same. Thank you guys for coming. I appreciate it. Thank you. We appreciate great great Cube covers here. eight of us summit we're live on the ground and were remote. It's a hybrid event. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm

>>Hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of A W. S. Public sector summit. I'm john Kerry hosting CUBA. We're live in Washington D. C. For two days, an actual event with an expo floor with real people face to face and of course we're streaming it digitally on the cube and cube channels. And so our next guest, Mark Francis chief digital health integration officer Electronic caregiver, Mark great to see you tech veteran and former intel back in the day. You've seen your ways of innovation. Welcome to the cube. >>Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here. >>So we were talking before we came on camera about all the innovation going back in the computer industry but now with health care and delivery of care telemedicine and how the structural systems are changing and how cloud is impacting that. You guys have an interesting solution on AWS that kind of, to me connect the dots for many tell us what you guys do and take us through the product. >>Sure. Happy to do so uh our company is electronic caregiver were actually founded back in 2009. We're based in Los cruces new Mexico so off the grid. Um but since that time we have been spending a lot of time and money doing foundational R and D pilots and product development work. Really say how do you bridge that chasm between the doctor's office and the patient home in a way that you can put a patient facing device and equipment in a patient's home that's going to drive high level of engagement, obtain actionable curated data that's presented out to caregivers and the caregivers can then act upon that to help direct and deliver high quality care. >>So basically is the future of medicine, >>the future of medicine. Right. Right. We look at medicine, we look at the future of medicine as being a hybrid model of in person care plus remote care. And we really see ourselves at the epicenter of providing a platform to help enable that. >>You know the big story here at the public sector. Some and we've been reporting on a digitally for the previous year is the impact the pandemic has had on the industry and and not just normal disruption, you know technology and start ups, disruption happens, structural changes being forced upon industries by the force majeure. That is the pandemic education, health care and so video and data and connected oriented systems are now the thing structurally that's changing it. That's causing all kinds of business model, innovations and challenges. Yeah. What's your take on that? Because this is real. >>Yeah. It is real. It it's funny that this is actually my third digital health company. Um First one was in in uh Silicon Valley early remote patient monitoring company. We end up selling it to bosh uh when I joined intel to be part of our digital health group, we did that for five years and ended a joint venture with G. E. So people have been playing around in remote patient monitoring telehealth for some time until the pandemic though there wasn't really a strong business model to justify scaling of these businesses. Um uh the pandemic change that it forced adoption and force the government to allow reimbursement coach as well. And as a result of that we've seen this pure if aeration of different product offering service offerings and then payment models around telehealth broadly speaking >>well since you started talking the music started cranking because this is the new music of the industry, we're here on the expo floor, we have face to face conversations going on and uh turn the music down. Hey thanks guys, this is a huge thing and I want to uh highlight even further what is the driver for this? Because is it, I mean actually clouds got some benefits but as you guys do the R. And D. What's going on with what's the key drivers for medicine? >>Yeah, I would take two things from a from a technology perspective, the infrastructure is finally in place to enable this type of charity distance before that it really wasn't there now that's there and the products that folks are used are much more affordable about the provider's side and the patient side. The main driver is um uh there's a lot of underlying trends that were happening that we're just being ignored Whether it was 50% non adherence to treatment plans, massive medication mismanagement um lack of professional and informal caregivers, all those things were kind of happening underneath the surface and then with Kobe, it all hit everybody in the phase. People started using telehealth and then realize, hey, we can deliver high quality care, we can deliver value based care mixed with a hybrid model of tele care plus patient care. And it turned out that, that, that works out well. So I think it's now a realization that tell care not only connects patients but solve some of these other issues around adherents, compliance, staffing and a number of other >>things and that this is a structural change we were talking about. Exactly. All right, So talk about amazon, what do you guys are doing on AWS? How's that all work? >>That's working out great. So as we, as we launch at a 2.0, we built it on 24 foundational aws and Amazon services. It's a serverless architecture, um, uh, which is delivered. What enables us to do is we have a whole bunch of different patients facing devices which we now integrate all into one back end through which we can run our data analytics are machine learning and then present curated actual data to the providers on top of that. We've also been developing a virtual caregiver that's really, really innovative. So we're using the unity engine to develop a very, very realistic virtual caregiver that is with the patient 24 hours a day in their home, they develop a relationship with that individual and then through that they can really drive greater you know more intimate care plan and a more intimate relationship with their human caregivers that's built using basic technology behind Alexa pauline lacks as well as IOT core and a lot of other ai ml services from from amazon as well. >>Not to get all nerdy and kind of seeking out here because under the hood it's all the goodness of amazon. We've got a server list, you got tennis is probably in there doing something who knows what's going on there, You've got polly let's do this and that but it also highlights the edge the ultimate network edges the human and if you've got to care for the patient at home or wherever on the run whatever. Yeah you got to get the access to the data so yeah I can imagine a lot of monitoring involved too. Yeah can you take us through how that works? >>Yeah and for us we like to talk about intelligence as opposed to data because data for data sakes isn't actionable. So really what can we do through machine learning and artificial intelligence to be able to make that data more actionable before the human caregiver because you're never going to take a human out of the equation. Uh But uh we had a lot of data inputs, they're both direct data inputs such as vital signs, we also get subtle data input. So with our with our uh with Addison or virtual caregiver uh the product actually come to the camera away from intel called the real sense cameras. And with that we get to see several signs of changes in terms of gate which might be in the indicative of falls risk of falls. We can see body temperature, pulse, heart rate, signs of stress, lack of sleep. Maybe that's a sign of uh adverse reaction to a new medication. There's a bunch of different direct and indirect inputs. We can take run some analysis against and then say hey there's something here you might want to look at because it might be indicating a change in health. >>So this is where the innovation around these bots and ai come in because you're essentially getting pattern matching on other signals you already know. So using the cameras and or sensors in to understand and get the patients some signaling where they can maybe take action call >>fun or Yeah, that's exactly. And the other thing we get, we get to integrate information related to what are called social determinants of health. So there's a whole body of research now showing that 65% of someone's health is actually driven by non clinical issues. So again issues of food security, transportation, access to care, mental health type issues in terms of stress and stuff like we can start gathering some of that information to based upon people's behaviors or for you to assessments which can also provide insights to help direct care. >>So maybe when I'm doing the Cuban reviews, you guys can go to work and look at me. I'm stressed out right now, having a great time here public sector, this is really cool. So take a minute to explain the vision. What does this go from here? I'll see low hanging fruit, telemedicine, check data, observe ability for patient for optimizing care, check what happens next industry disruption, what how these dominoes have been kind of fall? >>Yeah, for us uh we really are seeing more providers and more payers system. Integrators looking now to say how do I put together a comprehensive solution from the doctor's office to inpatient hospital to home that can remove it. A lot of barriers to care addi which is our platform is designed to be interoperable to plug into electronic health care systems, whether it's Cerner, Epic or Athenahealth, whatever it might be to be able to create that you pick us seamless platform for provider to use. We can push all of the data to their platform if they want to use that or they could use our platform and dashboard as well. We make it available to healthcare providers but also a lot of people are trying to age in place and they're getting treated by private duty providers, senior housing providers and other maybe less clinical caregivers. But if you're there every day with somebody you can pick up signs which might prevent a major health episode down the road. So we want to close that circle our our vision is how do we close the circle of care so that people get the right information at the right time to deliver the right >>care. So it's kind of a health care stack of a new kind of stack. So I have to ask you if there was an eye as pass and sass category um infrastructure as a service platform as a service. And then says it sounds like you guys are kind of combine the lower parts of the stack and enable your partners to develop on top of. Is that how it >>works? Yes it does. Yeah. Yeah. So with addie, the interesting thing that we've done it's designed to have open a P. I. For a lot of modules as well. So if we're working with the american Heart Association and we want to do a uh cardiac care module from using their I. P. We could do that if we want to integrate with Uber health or lift we could do that as well if we want to do something in the amazon and pill pack, it's a plug in that we could do that. So if I'm a patient or or a loved one at home instead of going to 10 different places or use our platform and then pull up four different apps. Everything can be right there at their fingertips. You can either do it by touch or you can use this voice because it's all a voice or a touch of interaction. >>So just because I'm curious and and and for clarification, the idea of going past versus SAS platform versus software as a service is why flexibility or customization? Why not go SAS and be a SAS application? >>Uh we've talked mostly about, we've we've gone back and forth platform as a service or infrastructure as a service. So that's more the debate that we've had. It's more about the scalability that we can offer. Um uh not just in the United States, but globally as well. Um and really that's really the thing that we've been looking at, especially because there's so many different sources of data, if you want to provide high quality care that needs to be integrated. We want to make sure that we created a platform, not just for what we provide but for what others in the environment can provide. >>So you really want to enable other people to create that very much layer on top of you guys, do you have out of the box SAS to get people going or is that just >>With the release of adding 2.0, now we do. So now folks go to our website and they contact our development those tools and and those libraries are available. >>Now, this is an awesome opportunity. So for people out there who are wanting to innovate on you, they can just say, okay, I'll leverage your the amazon web services of healthcare essentially. >>That's a nice bold ambitious statement. Yeah, but I mean kind of but if we if we can achieve that, then we'd be quite happy and we think the industry, you're gonna partner >>benefit of that. It's an ecosystem play. Exactly, yeah. It's kind of like. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And for us, what we do covert is a perfect example going back to that. So when Covid hit um were based in las cruces, new Mexico last winter lost crew system to el paso and overwhelmed. They're at capacity. Different health care systems came to us, they asked if we partner with them to deliver a basically a triage program for folks that were coming into the er with Covid. So we designed a Kobe at home programs. So you get diagnosed, get a kit, go home and using telehealth virtual visits, remote monitoring. Be able to stay healthy at home without doing community spread. And by making sure that you were being watched over by a care professionals 24 hours a day. We did that um worked with 300 people Malcolm would all of them said healthy. We were able to expand uh inpatient capacity by 77%. We saved the system over $6 million in in three months. We've now been asked and we're actually replicating that in Memphis now and then also we've been asked to do so down in Mississippi >>mark, great conversation. Uh real quick. I only I don't have much time left but I want to ask you, does this mean that we're gonna see a clip of proliferation of in home kind of devices to assist? >>Yeah, we will. Uh, what we've seen is a big pivot now towards hospital at home model of care. So you have providers saying, you know, I'll see you in my facility but also extend capabilities so I can see you and treat you at home as well. We've also seen a realization that telehealth is more than a than an occasional video visit because if all you're doing is replacing an occasional in person visit with an occasional video visit. You're not really changing things now. There's a whole different sensors ai other integrations that come together to be able to enable these different models >>for all the business school folks out there and people who understand what's going on with structural change. That's when innovation really changes. Yeah, this is structural change. >>Absolutely. >>Mark, thanks for coming on. Mark Francis chief Digital Health Integration Officer Electronic Caregiver here on the Q. Thanks. Coming >>on. Thank you. My pleasure. >>Okay, more coverage after this short break. I'm john Kerry, your host Aws public Sector summit, We'll be right back mm mm mm

>>Hello. And we're here at the cube startup showcase made possible by a Ws. Thanks so much for joining us today. You know when Jim McDaid Ghani was formulating her ideas around data mesh, She wasn't the only one thinking about decentralized data architecture. Hello, Fresh was going into hyper growth mode and realized that in order to support its scale, it needed to rethink how it thought about data. Like many companies that started in the early part of last decade, Hello Fresh relied on a monolithic data architecture and the internal team. It had concerns about its ability to support continued innovation at high velocity. The company's data team began to think about the future and work backwards from a target architecture which possessed many principles of so called data mesh even though they didn't use that term. Specifically, the company is a strong example of an early but practical pioneer of data mission. Now there are many practitioners and stakeholders involved in evolving the company's data architecture, many of whom are listed here on this on the slide to are highlighted in red are joining us today, we're really excited to welcome into the cube Clements cheese, the Global Senior Director for Data at Hello Fresh and christoph Nevada who's the Global Senior Director of data also, of course. Hello Fresh folks. Welcome. Thanks so much for making some time today and sharing your story. >>Thank you very much. Hey >>steve. All right, let's start with Hello Fresh. You guys are number one in the world in your field, you deliver hundreds of millions of meals each year to many, many millions of people around the globe. You're scaling christoph. Tell us a little bit more about your company and its vision. >>Yeah. Should I start or Clements maybe maybe take over the first piece because Clements has actually been a longer trajectory yet have a fresh. >>Yeah go ahead. Climate change. I mean yes about approximately six years ago I joined handle fresh and I didn't think about the startup I was joining would eventually I. P. O. And just two years later and the freshman public and approximately three years and 10 months after. Hello fresh was listed on the German stock exchange which was just last week. Hello Fresh was included in the Ducks Germany's leading stock market index and debt to mind a great great milestone and I'm really looking forward and I'm very excited for the future for the future for head of fashion. All our data. Um the vision that we have is to become the world's leading food solution group and there's a lot of attractive opportunities. So recently we did lounge and expand Norway. This was in july and earlier this year we launched the U. S. Brand green >>chef in the U. K. As >>well. We're committed to launch continuously different geographies in the next coming years and have a strong pipe ahead of us with the acquisition of ready to eat companies like factor in the U. S. And the planned acquisition of you foods in Australia. We're diversifying our offer now reaching even more and more untapped customer segments and increase our total addressable market. So by offering customers and growing range of different alternatives to shop food and consumer meals. We are charging towards this vision and the school to become the world's leading integrated food solutions group. >>Love it. You guys are on a rocket ship, you're really transforming the industry and as you expand your tam it brings us to sort of the data as a as a core part of that strategy. So maybe you guys could talk a little bit about your journey as a company specifically as it relates to your data journey. You began as a start up. You had a basic architecture like everyone. You made extensive use of spreadsheets. You built a Hadoop based system that started to grow and when the company I. P. O. You really started to explode. So maybe describe that journey from a data perspective. >>Yes they saw Hello fresh by 2015 approximately had evolved what amount of classical centralized management set up. So we grew very organically over the years and there were a lot of very smart people around the globe. Really building the company and building our infrastructure. Um This also means that there were a small number of internal and external sources. Data sources and a centralized the I team with a number of people producing different reports, different dashboards and products for our executives for example of our different operations teams, christian company's performance and knowledge was transferred um just via talking to each other face to face conversations and the people in the data where's team were considered as the data wizard or as the E. T. L. Wizard. Very classical challenges. And those et al. Reserves indicated the kind of like a silent knowledge of data management. Right? Um so a central data whereas team then was responsible for different type of verticals and different domains, different geographies and all this setup gave us to the beginning the flexibility to grow fast as a company in 2015 >>christoph anything that might add to that. >>Yes. Um Not expected to that one but as as clement says it right, this was kind of set up that actually work for us quite a while. And then in 2017 when L. A. Freshman public, the company also grew rapidly and just to give you an idea how that looked like. As was that the tech department self actually increased from about 40 people to almost 300 engineers And the same way as a business units as Clemens has described, also grew sustainable, sustainably. So we continue to launch hello fresh and new countries launching brands like every plate and also acquired other brands like much of a factor and with that grows also from a data perspective the number of data requests that centrally we're getting become more and more and more and also more and more complex. So that for the team meant that they had a fairly high mental load. So they had to achieve a very or basically get a very deep understanding about the business. And also suffered a lot from this context switching back and forth, essentially there to prioritize across our product request from our physical product, digital product from the physical from sorry, from the marketing perspective and also from the central reporting uh teams. And in a nutshell this was very hard for these people. And this that also to a situation that, let's say the solution that we have became not really optimal. So in a nutshell, the central function became a bottleneck and slowdown of all the innovation of the company. >>It's a classic case, isn't it? I mean Clements, you see you see the central team becomes a bottleneck and so the lines of business, the marketing team salesman's okay, we're going to take things into our own hands. And then of course I I. T. And the technical team is called in later to clean up the mess. Uh maybe, I mean was that maybe I'm overstating it, but that's a common situation, isn't it? >>Yeah. Uh This is what exactly happened. Right. So um we had a bottleneck, we have the central teams, there was always a little of tension um analytics teams then started in this business domains like marketing, trade chain, finance, HR and so on. Started really to build their own data solutions at some point you have to get the ball rolling right and then continue the trajectory um which means then that the data pipelines didn't meet the engineering standards. And um there was an increased need for maintenance and support from central teams. Hence over time the knowledge about those pipelines and how to maintain a particular uh infrastructure for example left the company such that most of those data assets and data sets are turned into a huge step with decreasing data quality um also decrease the lack of trust, decreasing transparency. And this was increasing challenge where majority of time was spent in meeting rooms to align on on data quality for example. >>Yeah. And and the point you were making christoph about context switching and this is this is a point that Jemaah makes quite often is we've we've we've contextualized are operational systems like our sales systems, our marketing system but not our our data system. So you're asking the data team, Okay. Be an expert in sales, be an expert in marketing, be an expert in logistics, be an expert in supply chain and it start stop, start, stop, it's a paper cut environment and it's just not as productive. But but on the flip side of that is when you think about a centralized organization you think, hey this is going to be a very efficient way, a cross functional team to support the organization but it's not necessarily the highest velocity, most effective organizational structure. >>Yeah, so so I agree with that. Is that up to a certain scale, a centralized function has a lot of advantages, right? That's clear for everyone which would go to some kind of expert team. However, if you see that you actually would like to accelerate that and specific and this hyper growth, right, you wanna actually have autonomy and certain teams and move the teams or let's say the data to the experts in these teams and this, as you have mentioned, right, that increases mental load and you can either internally start splitting your team into a different kind of sub teams focusing on different areas. However, that is then again, just adding another peace where actually collaboration needs to happen busy external sees, so why not bridging that gap immediately and actually move these teams and to end into into the function themselves. So maybe just to continue what, what was Clements was saying and this is actually where over. So Clements, my journey started to become one joint journey. So Clements was coming actually from one of these teams to build their own solutions. I was basically having the platform team called database housed in these days and in 2019 where basically the situation become more and more serious, I would say so more and more people have recognized that this model doesn't really scale In 2019, basically the leadership of the company came together and I identified data as a key strategic asset and what we mean by that, that if we leverage data in a proper way, it gives us a unique competitive advantage which could help us to, to support and actually fully automated our decision making process across the entire value chain. So what we're, what we're trying to do now or what we should be aiming for is that Hello, Fresh is able to build data products that have a purpose. We're moving away from the idea. Data is just a by problem products, we have a purpose why we would like to collect this data. There's a clear business need behind that. And because it's so important to for the company as a business, we also want to provide them as a trust versi asset to the rest of the organization. We say there's the best customer experience, but at least in a way that users can easily discover, understand and security access high quality data. >>Yeah, so and and and Clements, when you c J Maxx writing, you see, you know, she has the four pillars and and the principles as practitioners you look at that say, okay, hey, that's pretty good thinking and then now we have to apply it and that's and that's where the devil meets the details. So it's the four, you know, the decentralized data ownership data as a product, which we'll talk about a little bit self serve, which you guys have spent a lot of time on inclement your wheelhouse which is which is governance and a Federated governance model. And it's almost like if you if you achieve the first two then you have to solve for the second to it almost creates a new challenges but maybe you could talk about that a little bit as to how it relates to Hello fresh. >>Yes. So christophe mentioned that we identified economic challenge beforehand and for how can we actually decentralized and actually empower the different colleagues of ours. This was more a we realized that it was more an organizational or a cultural change and this is something that somebody also mentioned I think thought words mentioned one of the white papers, it's more of a organizational or cultural impact and we kicked off a um faced reorganization or different phases we're currently and um in the middle of still but we kicked off different phases of organizational reconstruct oring reorganization, try unlock this data at scale. And the idea was really moving away from um ever growing complex matrix organizations or matrix setups and split between two different things. One is the value creation. So basically when people ask the question, what can we actually do, what shall we do? This is value creation and how, which is capability building and both are equal in authority. This actually then creates a high urge and collaboration and this collaboration breaks up the different silos that were built and of course this also includes different needs of stuffing forward teams stuffing with more, let's say data scientists or data engineers, data professionals into those business domains and hence also more capability building. Um Okay, >>go ahead. Sorry. >>So back to Tzemach did johnny. So we the idea also Then crossed over when she published her papers in May 2019 and we thought well The four colors that she described um we're around decentralized data ownership, product data as a product mindset, we have a self service infrastructure and as you mentioned, Federated confidential governance. And this suited very much with our thinking at that point of time to reorganize the different teams and this then leads to a not only organisational restructure but also in completely new approach of how we need to manage data, show data. >>Got it. Okay, so your business is is exploding. Your data team will have to become domain experts in too many areas, constantly contact switching as we said, people started to take things into their own hands. So again we said classic story but but you didn't let it get out of control and that's important. So we actually have a picture of kind of where you're going today and it's evolved into this Pat, if you could bring up the picture with the the elephant here we go. So I would talk a little bit about the architecture, doesn't show it here, the spreadsheet era but christoph maybe you can talk about that. It does show the Hadoop monolith which exists today. I think that's in a managed managed hosting service, but but you you preserve that piece of it, but if I understand it correctly, everything is evolving to the cloud, I think you're running a lot of this or all of it in A W. S. Uh you've got everybody's got their own data sources, uh you've got a data hub which I think is enabled by a master catalog for discovery and all this underlying technical infrastructure. That is really not the focus of this conversation today. But the key here, if I understand it correctly is these domains are autonomous and not only that this required technical thinking, but really supportive organizational mindset, which we're gonna talk about today. But christoph maybe you could address, you know, at a high level some of the architectural evolution that you guys went through. >>Yeah, sure. Yeah, maybe it's also a good summary about the entire history. So as you have mentioned, right, we started in the very beginning with the model is on the operation of playing right? Actually, it wasn't just one model is both to one for the back end and one for the for the front and and or analytical plane was essentially a couple of spreadsheets and I think there's nothing wrong with spreadsheets, right, allows you to store information, it allows you to transform data allows you to share this information. It allows you to visualize this data, but all the kind of that's not actually separating concern right? Everything in one tool. And this means that obviously not scalable, right? You reach the point where this kind of management set up in or data management of isn't one tool reached elements. So what we have started is we've created our data lake as we have seen here on Youtube. And this at the very beginning actually reflected very much our operational populace on top of that. We used impala is a data warehouse, but there was not really a distinction between borders, our data warehouse and borders our data like the impala was used as a kind of those as the kind of engine to create a warehouse and data like construct itself and this organic growth actually led to a situation as I think it's it's clear now that we had to centralized model is for all the domains that will really lose kimball modeling standards. There was no uniformity used actually build in house uh ways of building materialized use abuse that we have used for the presentation layer, there was a lot of duplication of effort and in the end essentially they were missing feedbacks, food, which helped us to to improve of what we are filled. So in the end, in the natural, as we have said, the lack of trust and that's basically what the starting point for us to understand. Okay, how can we move away and there are a lot of different things that you can discuss of apart from this organizational structure that we have said, okay, we have these three or four pillars from from Denmark. However, there's also the next extra question around how do we implement our talking about actual right, what are the implications on that level? And I think that is there's something that we are that we are currently still in progress. >>Got it. Okay, so I wonder if we could talk about switch gears a little bit and talk about the organizational and cultural challenges that you faced. What were those conversations like? Uh let's dig into that a little bit. I want to get into governance as well. >>The conversations on the cultural change. I mean yes, we went through a hyper growth for the last year since obviously there were a lot of new joiners, a lot of different, very, very smart people joining the company which then results that collaboration uh >>got a bit more difficult. Of course >>there are times and changes, you have different different artifacts that you were created um and documentation that were flying around. Um so we were we had to build the company from scratch right? Um Of course this then resulted always this tension which I described before, but the most important part here is that data has always been a very important factor at l a fresh and we collected >>more of this >>data and continued to improve use data to improve the different key areas of our business. >>Um even >>when organizational struggles, the central organizational struggles data somehow always helped us to go through this this kind of change. Right? Um in the end those decentralized teams in our local geography ease started with solutions that serve the business which was very very important otherwise wouldn't be at the place where we are today but they did by all late best practices and standards and I always used sport analogy Dave So like any sport, there are different rules and regulations that need to be followed. These rules are defined by calling the sports association and this is what you can think about data governance and compliance team. Now we add the players to it who need to follow those rules and bite by them. This is what we then called data management. Now we have the different players and professionals, they need to be trained and understand the strategy and it rules before they can play. And this is what I then called data literacy. So we realized that we need to focus on helping our teams to develop those capabilities and teach the standards for how work is being done to truly drive functional excellence in a different domains. And one of our mission of our data literacy program for example is to really empower >>every employee at hello >>fresh everyone to make the right data informs decisions by providing data education that scaled by royal Entry team. Then this can be different things, different things like including data capabilities, um, with the learning paths for example. Right? So help them to create and deploy data products connecting data producers and data consumers and create a common sense and more understanding of each other's dependencies, which is important, for example, S. S. L. O. State of contracts and etcetera. Um, people getting more of a sense of ownership and responsibility. Of course, we have to define what it means, what does ownership means? But the responsibility means. But we're teaching this to our colleagues via individual learning patterns and help them up skill to use. Also, there's shared infrastructure and those self self service applications and overall to summarize, we're still in this progress of of, of learning, we are still learning as well. So learning never stops the tele fish, but we are really trying this um, to make it as much fun as possible. And in the end we all know user behavior has changed through positive experience. Uh, so instead of having massive training programs over endless courses of workshops, um, leaving our new journalists and colleagues confused and overwhelmed. >>We're applying um, >>game ification, right? So split different levels of certification where our colleagues can access, have had access points, they can earn badges along the way, which then simplifies the process of learning and engagement of the users and this is what we see in surveys, for example, where our employees that your justification approach a lot and are even competing to collect Those learning path batteries to become the # one on the leader board. >>I love the game ification, we've seen it work so well and so many different industries, not the least of which is crypto so you've identified some of the process gaps uh that you, you saw it is gloss over them. Sometimes I say paved the cow path. You didn't try to force, in other words, a new architecture into the legacy processes. You really have to rethink your approach to data management. So what what did that entail? >>Um, to rethink the way of data management. 100%. So if I take the example of Revolution, Industrial Revolution or classical supply chain revolution, but just imagine that you have been riding a horse, for example, your whole life and suddenly you can operate a car or you suddenly receive just a complete new way of transporting assets from A to B. Um, so we needed to establish a new set of cross functional business processes to run faster, dry faster, um, more robustly and deliver data products which can be trusted and used by downstream processes and systems. Hence we had a subset of new standards and new procedures that would fall into the internal data governance and compliance sector with internal, I'm always referring to the data operations around new things like data catalog, how to identify >>ownership, >>how to change ownership, how to certify data assets, everything around classical software development, which we know apply to data. This this is similar to a new thinking, right? Um deployment, versioning, QA all the different things, ingestion policies, policing procedures, all the things that suffer. Development has been doing. We do it now with data as well. And in simple terms, it's a whole redesign of the supply chain of our data with new procedures and new processes and as a creation as management and as a consumption. >>So data has become kind of the new development kit. If you will um I want to shift gears and talk about the notion of data product and, and we have a slide uh that we pulled from your deck and I'd like to unpack it a little bit. Uh I'll just, if you can bring that up, I'll read it. A data product is a product whose primary objective is to leverage on data to solve customer problems where customers, both internal and external. So pretty straightforward. I know you've gone much deeper and you're thinking and into your organization, but how do you think about that And how do you determine for instance who owns what? How did you get everybody to agree? >>I can take that one. Um, maybe let me start with the data product. So I think um that's an ongoing debate. Right? And I think the debate itself is an important piece here, right? That visit the debate, you clarify what we actually mean by that product and what is actually the mindset. So I think just from a definition perspective, right? I think we find the common denominator that we say okay that our product is something which is important for the company has come to its value what you mean by that. Okay, it's it's a solution to a customer problem that delivers ideally maximum value to the business. And yes, it leverages the power of data and we have a couple of examples but it had a fresh year, the historical and classical ones around dashboards for example, to monitor or error rates but also more sophisticated ways for example to incorporate machine learning algorithms in our recipe recommendations. However, I think the important aspects of the data product is a there is an owner, right? There's someone accountable for making sure that the product that we are providing is actually served and is maintained and there are, there is someone who is making sure that this actually keeps the value of that problem thing combined with the idea of the proper documentation, like a product description, right that people understand how to use their bodies is about and related to that peace is the idea of it is a purpose. Right? You need to understand or ask ourselves, Okay, why does this thing exist does it provide the value that you think it does. That leads into a good understanding about the life cycle of the data product and life cycle what we mean? Okay from the beginning from the creation you need to have a good understanding, we need to collect feedback, we need to learn about that. We need to rework and actually finally also to think about okay benefits time to decommission piece. So overall, I think the core of the data product is product thinking 11 right that we start the point is the starting point needs to be the problem and not the solution and this is essentially what we have seen what was missing but brought us to this kind of data spaghetti that we have built there in in Russia, essentially we built at certain data assets, develop in isolation and continuously patch the solution just to fulfill these articles that we got and actually these aren't really understanding of the stakeholder needs and the interesting piece as a result in duplication of work and this is not just frustrating and probably not the most efficient way how the company should work. But also if I build the same that assets but slightly different assumption across the company and multiple teams that leads to data inconsistency and imagine the following too narrow you as a management for management perspective, you're asking basically a specific question and you get essentially from a couple of different teams, different kind of grass, different kind of data and numbers and in the end you do not know which ones to trust. So there's actually much more ambiguity and you do not know actually is a noise for times of observing or is it just actually is there actually a signal that I'm looking for? And the same is if I'm running in a B test right, I have a new future, I would like to understand what has it been the business impact of this feature. I run that specific source in an unfortunate scenario. Your production system is actually running on a different source. You see different numbers. What you've seen in a B test is actually not what you see then in production typical thing then is you're asking some analytics tend to actually do a deep dive to understand where the discrepancies are coming from. The worst case scenario. Again, there's a different kind of source. So in the end it's a pretty frustrating scenario and that's actually based of time of people that have to identify the root cause of this divergence. So in a nutshell, the highest degree of consistency is actually achieved that people are just reusing Dallas assets and also in the media talk that we have given right, we we start trying to establish this approach for a B testing. So we have a team but just providing or is kind of owning their target metric associated business teams and they're providing that as a product also to other services including the A B testing team, they'll be testing team can use this information defines an interface is okay I'm joining this information that the metadata of an experiment and in the end after the assignment after this data collection face, they can easily add a graph to the dashboard. Just group by the >>Beatles Hungarian. >>And we have seen that also in other companies. So it's not just a nice dream that we have right. I have actually worked in other companies where we worked on search and we established a complete KPI pipeline that was computing all this information. And this information was hosted by the team and it was used for everything A B test and deep dives and and regular reporting. So uh just one of the second the important piece now, why I'm coming back to that is that requires that we are treating this data as a product right? If you want to have multiple people using the things that I am owning and building, we have to provide this as a trust mercy asset and in a way that it's easy for people to discover and actually work with. >>Yeah. And coming back to that. So this is to me this is why I get so excited about data mesh because I really do think it's the right direction for organizations. When people hear data product they say well, what does that mean? Uh but then when you start to sort of define it as you did, it's it's using data to add value, that could be cutting costs, that could be generating revenue, it could be actually directly you're creating a product that you monetize, So it's sort of in the eyes of the beholder. But I think the other point that we've made is you made it earlier on to and again, context. So when you have a centralized data team and you have all these P NL managers a lot of times they'll question the data because they don't own it. They're like wait a minute. If they don't, if it doesn't agree with their agenda, they'll attack the data. But if they own the data then they're responsible for defending that and that is a mindset change, that's really important. Um And I'm curious uh is how you got to, you know, that ownership? Was it a was it a top down with somebody providing leadership? Was it more organic bottom up? Was it a sort of a combination? How do you decide who owned what in other words, you know, did you get, how did you get the business to take ownership of the data and what is owning? You know, the data actually mean? >>That's a very good question. Dave I think this is one of the pieces where I think we have a lot of learnings and basically if you ask me how we could start the feeling. I think that would be the first piece. Maybe we need to start to really think about how that should be approached if it stopped his ownership. Right? It means somehow that the team has a responsibility to host and self the data efforts to minimum acceptable standards. This minimum dependencies up and down string. The interesting piece has been looking backwards. What what's happening is that under that definition has actually process that we have to go through is not actually transferring ownership from the central team to the distributor teams. But actually most cases to establish ownership, I make this difference because saying we have to transfer ownership actually would erroneously suggests that the data set was owned before. But this platform team, yes, they had the capability to make the changes on data pipelines, but actually the analytics team, they're always the ones who had the business understands, you use cases and but no one actually, but it's actually expensive expected. So we had to go through this very lengthy process and establishing ownership. We have done that, as in the beginning, very naively. They have started, here's a document here, all the data assets, what is probably the nearest neighbor who can actually take care of that and then we we moved it over. But the problem here is that all these things is kind of technical debt, right? It's not really properly documented, pretty unstable. It was built in a very inconsistent over years and these people who have built this thing have already left the company. So there's actually not a nice thing that is that you want to see and people build up a certain resistance, e even if they have actually bought into this idea of domain ownership. So if you ask me these learnings, but what needs to happen as first, the company needs to really understand what our core business concept that they have, they need to have this mapping from. These are the core business concept that we have. These are the domain teams who are owning this concept and then actually link that to the to the assets and integrated better with both understanding how we can evolve actually, the data assets and new data build things new in the in this piece in the domain. But also how can we address reduction of technical death and stabilizing what we have already. >>Thank you for that christoph. So I want to turn a direction here and talk about governance and I know that's an area that's passionate, you're passionate about. Uh I pulled this slide from your deck, which I kind of messed up a little bit sorry for that, but but by the way, we're going to publish a link to the full video that you guys did. So we'll share that with folks. But it's one of the most challenging aspects of data mesh, if you're going to decentralize you, you quickly realize this could be the Wild West as we talked about all over again. So how are you approaching governance? There's a lot of items on this slide that are, you know, underscore the complexity, whether it's privacy, compliance etcetera. So, so how did you approach this? >>It's yeah, it's about connecting those dots. Right. So the aim of the data governance program is about the autonomy of every team was still ensuring that everybody has the right interoperability. So when we want to move from the Wild West riding horses to a civilised way of transport, um you can take the example of modern street traffic, like when all participants can manoeuvre independently and as long as they follow the same rules and standards, everybody can remain compatible with each other and understand and learn from each other so we can avoid car crashes. So when I go from country to country, I do understand what the street infrastructure means. How do I drive my car? I can also read the traffic lights in the different signals. Um, so likewise as a business and Hello Fresh, we do operate autonomously and consequently need to follow those external and internal rules and standards to set forth by the redistribution in which we operate so in order to prevent a car crash, we need to at least ensure compliance with regulations to account for society's and our customers increasing concern with data protection and privacy. So teaching and advocating this advantage, realizing this to everyone in the company um was a key community communication strategy and of course, I mean I mentioned data privacy external factors, the same goes for internal regulations and processes to help our colleagues to adapt to this very new environment. So when I mentioned before the new way of thinking the new way of um dealing and managing data, this of course implies that we need new processes and regulations for our colleagues as well. Um in a nutshell then this means the data governance provides a framework for managing our people the processes and technology and culture around our data traffic. And those components must come together in order to have this effective program providing at least a common denominator, especially critical for shared dataset, which we have across our different geographies managed and shared applications on shared infrastructure and applications and is then consumed by centralized processes um for example, master data, everything and all the metrics and KPI s which are also used for a central steering. Um it's a big change day. Right. And our ultimate goal is to have this noninvasive, Federated um ultimatum and computational governance and for that we can't just talk about it. We actually have to go deep and use case by use case and Qc buy PVC and generate learnings and learnings with the different teams. And this would be a classical approach of identifying the target structure, the target status, match it with the current status by identifying together with the business teams with the different domains have a risk assessment for example, to increase transparency because a lot of teams, they might not even know what kind of situation they might be. And this is where this training and this piece of illiteracy comes into place where we go in and trade based on the findings based on the most valuable use case um and based on that help our teams to do this change to increase um their capability just a little bit more and once they hand holding. But a lot of guidance >>can I kind of kind of trying to quickly David will allow me I mean there's there's a lot of governance piece but I think um that is important. And if you're talking about documentation for example, yes, we can go from team to team and tell these people how you have to document your data and data catalog or you have to establish data contracts and so on the force. But if you would like to build data products at scale following actual governance, we need to think about automation right. We need to think about a lot of things that we can learn from engineering before. And that starts with simple things like if we would like to build up trust in our data products, right, and actually want to apply the same rigor and the best practices that we know from engineering. There are things that we can do and we should probably think about what we can copy and one example might be. So the level of service level agreements, service level objectives. So that level indicators right, that represent on on an engineering level, right? If we're providing services there representing the promises we made to our customers or consumers, these are the internal objectives that help us to keep those promises. And actually these are the way of how we are tracking ourselves, how we are doing. And this is just one example of that thing. The Federated Governor governance comes into play right. In an ideal world, we should not just talk about data as a product but also data product. That's code that we say, okay, as most as much as possible. Right? Give the engineers the tool that they are familiar basis and actually not ask the product managers for example to document their data assets in the data catalog but make it part of the configuration. Have this as a, as a C D C I, a continuous delivery pipeline as we typically see another engineering task through and services we say, okay, there is configuration, we can think about pr I can think about data quality monitoring, we can think about um the ingestion data catalog and so on and forest, I think ideally in the data product will become of a certain templates that can be deployed and are actually rejected or verified at build time before we actually make them deploy them to production. >>Yeah, So it's like devoPS for data product um so I'm envisioning almost a three phase approach to governance and you kind of, it sounds like you're in early phases called phase zero where there's there's learning, there's literacy, there's training, education, there's kind of self governance and then there's some kind of oversight, some a lot of manual stuff going on and then you you're trying to process builders at this phase and then you codify it and then you can automate it. Is that fair? >>Yeah, I would rather think think about automation as early as possible in the way and yes, there needs to be certain rules but then actually start actually use case by use case. Is there anything that small piece that we can already automate? It's as possible. Roll that out and then actually extended step by step, >>is there a role though that adjudicates that? Is there a central Chief state officer who is responsible for making sure people are complying or is it how do you handle that? >>I mean from a from a from a platform perspective, yes, we have a centralized team to uh implement certain pieces they'll be saying are important and actually would like to implement. However, that is actually working very closely with the governance department. So it's Clements piece to understand and defy the policies that needs to be implemented. >>So Clements essentially it's it's your responsibility to make sure that the policy is being followed. And then as you were saying, christoph trying to compress the time to automation as fast as possible percent. >>So >>it's really it's uh >>what needs to be really clear that it's always a split effort, Right? So you can't just do one thing or the other thing, but everything really goes hand in hand because for the right automation for the right engineering tooling, we need to have the transparency first. Uh I mean code needs to be coded so we kind of need to operate on the same level with the right understanding. So there's actually two things that are important which is one its policies and guidelines, but not only that because more importantly or even well equally important to align with the end user and tech teams and engineering and really bridge between business value business teams and the engineering teams. >>Got it. So just a couple more questions because we gotta wrap I want to talk a little bit about the business outcome. I know it's hard to quantify and I'll talk about that in a moment but but major learnings, we've got some of the challenges that you cited. I'll just put them up here. We don't have to go detailed into this, but I just wanted to share with some folks. But my question, I mean this is the advice for your peers question if you had to do it differently if you had a do over or a Mulligan as we like to say for you golfers, what would you do differently? Yeah, >>I mean can we start with from a from the transformational challenge that understanding that it's also high load of cultural change. I think this is this is important that a particular communication strategy needs to be put into place and people really need to be um supported. Right? So it's not that we go in and say well we have to change towards data mesh but naturally it's in human nature, you know, we're kind of resistance to to change right? Her speech uncomfortable. So we need to take that away by training and by communicating um chris we're gonna add something to that >>and definitely I think the point that I have also made before right we need to acknowledge that data mesh is an architecture of scale, right? You're looking for something which is necessary by huge companies who are vulnerable, data productive scale. I mean Dave you mentioned it right, there are a lot of advantages to have a centralized team but at some point it may make sense to actually decentralized here and at this point right? If you think about data Mash, you have to recognize that you're not building something on a green field. And I think there's a big learning which is also reflected here on the slide is don't underestimate your baggage. It's typically you come to a point where the old model doesn't doesn't broke anymore and has had a fresh right? We lost our trust in our data and actually we have seen certain risks that we're slowing down our innovation so we triggered that this was triggering the need to actually change something. So this transition implies that you typically have a lot of technical debt accumulated over years and I think what we have learned is that potentially we have decentralized some assets to earlier, this is not actually taking into account the maturity of the team where we are actually distributed to and now we actually in the face of correcting pieces of that one. Right? But I think if you if you if you start from scratch you have to understand, okay, is are my team is actually ready for taking on this new uh, this news capabilities and you have to make sure that business decentralization, you build up these >>capabilities and the >>teams and as Clements has mentioned, right, make sure that you take the people on your journey. I think these are the pieces that also here, it comes with this knowledge gap, right? That we need to think about hiring and literacy the technical depth I just talked about and I think the last piece that I would add now which is not here on the flight deck is also from our perspective, we started on the analytical layer because that's kind of where things are exploding, right, this is the thing that people feel the pain but I think a lot of the efforts that we have started to actually modernize the current state uh, towards data product towards data Mash. We've understood that it always comes down basically to a proper shape of our operational plane and I think what needs to happen is is I think we got through a lot of pains but the learning here is this need to really be a commitment from the company that needs to happen and to act. >>I think that point that last point you made it so critical because I I hear a lot from the vendor community about how they're gonna make analytics better and that's that's not unimportant, but but through data product thinking and decentralized data organizations really have to operationalize in order to scale. So these decisions around data architecture an organization, their fundamental and lasting, it's not necessarily about an individual project are why they're gonna be project sub projects within this architecture. But the architectural decision itself is an organizational, its cultural and what's the best approach to support your business at scale. It really speaks to to to what you are, who you are as a company, how you operate and getting that right, as we've seen in the success of data driven driven companies is yields tremendous results. So I'll ask each of you to give give us your final thoughts and then we'll wrap maybe >>maybe it quickly, please. Yeah, maybe just just jumping on this piece that you have mentioned, right, the target architecture. If we talk about these pieces right, people often have this picture of mind like OK, there are different kind of stages, we have sources, we have actually ingestion layer, we have historical transformation presentation layer and then we're basically putting a lot of technology on top of that kind of our target architecture. However, I think what we really need to make sure is that we have these different kind of viewers, right? We need to understand what are actually the capabilities that we need in our new goals. How does it look and feel from the different kind of personas and experience view? And then finally, that should actually go to the to the target architecture from a technical perspective um maybe just to give an outlook but what we're what we're planning to do, how we want to move that forward. We have actually based on our strategy in the in the sense of we would like to increase that to maturity as a whole across the entire company and this is kind of a framework around the business strategy and it's breaking down into four pillars as well. People meaning the data, cultural, data literacy, data organizational structure and so on that. We're talking about governance as Clements has actually mentioned that, right, compliance, governance, data management and so on. You talk about technology and I think we could talk for hours for that one. It's around data platform, better science platform and then finally also about enablement through data, meaning we need to understand that a quality data accessibility and the science and data monetization. >>Great, thank you christophe clement. Once you bring us home give us your final thoughts. >>Can't can just agree with christoph that uh important is to understand what kind of maturity people have to understand what the maturity level, where the company where where people organization is and really understand what does kind of some kind of a change replies to that those four pillars for example, um what needs to be taken first and this is not very clear from the very first beginning of course them it's kind of like Greenfield you come up with must wins to come up with things that we really want to do out of theory and out of different white papers. Um only if you really start conducting the first initiatives you do understand. Okay, where we have to put the starts together and where do I missed out on one of those four different pillars? People, process technology and governance. Right? And then that kind of an integration. Doing step by step, small steps by small steps not boiling the ocean where you're capable ready to identify the gaps and see where either you can fill um the gaps are where you have to increase maturity first and train people or increase your text text, >>you know Hello Fresh is an excellent example of a company that is innovating. It was not born in Silicon Valley which I love. It's a global company. Uh and I gotta ask you guys, it seems like this is an amazing place to work you guys hiring? >>Yes, >>definitely. We do >>uh as many rights as was one of these aspects distributing. And actually we are hiring as an entire company specifically for data. I think there are a lot of open roles serious. Please visit or our page from better engineering, data, product management and Clemens has a lot of rules that you can speak about. But yes >>guys, thanks so much for sharing with the cube audience, your, your pioneers and we look forward to collaborations in the future to track progress and really want to thank you for your time. >>Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Dave >>thank you for watching the cubes startup showcase made possible by A W. S. This is Dave Volonte. We'll see you next time. >>Yeah.

>>and hello, we're back. I've got my panel and we are doing things real time here. So sorry for the delay a few minutes late. So the way let's talk about things, the reason we're here and we're going around the room and introduce everybody. Got three special guests here. I got my evil or my john and the normal And we're going to talk about get ops I called it future office just because I want to think about what's the next thing for that at the end, we're gonna talk about what our ideas for what's next for getups, right? Um, because we're all starting to just get into get ups now. But of course a lot of us are always thinking about what's next? What's better? How can we make this thing better? So we're going to take your questions. That's the reason we're here, is to take your questions and answer them. Or at least the best we can for the next hour. And all right, so let's go around the room and introduce yourself. My name is Brett. I am streaming from Brett from that. From Brett. From Virginia Beach in Virginia beach, Virginia, United States. Um, and I talk about things on the internet, I sell courses on you, to me that talk about Docker and kubernetes Ive or introduce yourself. >>How's it going? Everyone, I'm a software engineer at axel Springer, currently based in Berlin and I happen to be Brett Brett's teaching assistant. >>All right, that's right. We're in, we're in our courses together almost every day. Mm john >>hey everyone, my name is john Harris, I used to work at Dhaka um, I now work at VM ware is a star field engineer. Um, so yeah, >>and normal >>awesome by the way, you are streaming from Brett Brett, >>I answered from breath to breath. >>Um I'm normal method. I'm a distinguished engineer with booz allen and I'm also a doctor captain and it's good to see either in person and it's good to see you again john it's been a little while. >>It has the pre covid times, right? You're up here in Seattle. >>Yeah. It feels, it feels like an eternity ago. >>Yeah, john shirt looks red and reminds me of the Austin T shirt. So I was like, yeah, so we all, we all have like this old limited edition doctor on E. >>T. That's a, that's a classic. >>Yeah, I scored that one last year. Sometimes with these old conference church, you have to like go into people's closets. I'm not saying I did that. Um, but you know, you have to go steal stuff, you to find ways to get the swag >>post post covid. If you ever come to my place, I'm going to have to lock the closets. That >>that's right, That's right. >>So the second I think it was the second floor of the doctor HQ in SAn Francisco was where they kept all the T shirts, just boxes and boxes and boxes floor to ceiling. So every time I went to HQ you just you just as many as you can fit in your luggage. I think I have about 10 of these. You >>bring an extra piece of luggage just for your your shirt shirt grab. Um All right, so I'm going to start scanning questions uh so that you don't have to you can you help you all are welcome to do that. And I'm going to start us off with the topic. Um So let's just define the parameters. Like we can talk about anything devops and here we can go down and plenty of rabbit holes. But the kind of, the goal here is to talk about get ups and get ups if you haven't heard about it is essentially uh using versioning systems like get like we've all been getting used to as developers to track your infrastructure changes, not just your code changes and then automate that with a bunch of tooling so that the robots take over. And essentially you have get as a central source of truth and then get log as a central source of history and then there's a bunch of magic little bits in the middle and then supposedly everything is wonderful. It's all automatic. The reality is is what it's often quite messy, quite tricky to get everything working. And uh the edges of this are not perfect. Um so it is a relatively new thing. It's probably three, maybe four years old as an official thing from. We've uh so we're gonna get into it and I'll let's go around the room and the same word we did before and um not to push on that, put you on the spot or anything. But what is, what is one of the things you either like or either hate about getups um that you've enjoyed either using it or you know, whatever for me. I really, I really love that I can point people to a repo that basically is hopefully if they look at the log a tracking, simplistic tracking of what might have changed in that part of the world or the environment. I remember many years past where, you know, I've had executive or some mid level manager wants to see what the changes were or someone outside my team went to see what we just changed. It was okay, they need access to this system into that dashboard and that spreadsheet and then this thing and it was always so complicated and now in a world where if we're using get up orbit bucket or whatever where you can just say, hey go look at that repo if there was three commits today, probably three changes happened. That's I love that particular part about it. Of course it's always more complicated than that. But um Ive or I know you've been getting into this stuff recently. So um any thoughts? Yeah, I think >>my favorite part about get ops is >>reproducibility. Um >>you know the ability to just test something and get it up and running >>and then just tear it down. >>Uh not >>being worried that how did I configure it the first time? I think that's my favorite part about >>it. I'm changing your background as we do this. >>I was going to say, did you just do it get ups pushed to like change his >>background, just a dialogue that different for that green screen equals false? Uh Change the background. Yeah, I mean, um and I mean I think last year was really my first year of actually using it on anything significant, like a real project. Um so I'm still, I still feel like I'm very new to john you anything. >>Yeah, it's weird getups is that thing which kind of crystallizes maybe better than anything else, the grizzled veteran life cycle of emotions with the technology because I think it's easy to get super excited about something new. And when I first looked into get up, so I think this is even before it was probably called getups, we were looking at like how to use guest source of truth, like everything sounds great, right? You're like, wait, get everyone knows, get gets the source of truth, There's a load of robust tooling. This just makes a sense. If everything dies, we can just apply the get again, that would be great. Um and then you go through like the trough of despair, right? We're like, oh no, none of this works. The application is super stateless if this doesn't work and what do we do with secrets and how do we do this? Like how do we get people access in the right place and then you realize everything is terrible again and then everything it equalizes and you're kind of, I think, you know, it sounds great on paper and they were absolutely fantastic things about it, but I think just having that measured approach to it, like it's, you know, I think when you put it best in the beginning where you do a and then there's a magic and then you get C. Right, like it's the magic, which is >>the magic is the mystery, >>right? >>Magic can be good and bad and in text so >>very much so yeah, so um concurrence with with john and ever uh in terms of what I like about it is the potential to apply it to moving security to left and getting closer to a more stable infrastructures code with respect to the whole entire environment. Um And uh and that reconciliation loop, it reminds me of what, what is old is new again? Right? Well, quote unquote old um in terms of like chef and puppet and that the reconciliation loop applied in a in a more uh in a cleaner interface and and into the infrastructure that we're kind of used to already, once you start really digging into kubernetes what I don't like and just this is in concurrence with the other Panelist is it's relatively new. It has um, so it has a learning curve and it's still being, you know, it's a very active um environment and community and that means that things are changing and constantly and there's like new ways and new patterns as people are exploring how to use it. And I think that trough of despair is typically figuring out incrementally what it actually is doing for you and what it's not going to solve for you, right, john, so like that's that trough of despair for a bit and then you realize, okay, this is where it fits potentially in my architecture and like anything, you have to make that trade off and you have to make that decision and accept the trade offs for that. But I think it has a lot of promise for, for compliance and security and all that good stuff. >>Yeah. It's like it's like the potentials, there's still a lot more potential than there is uh reality right now. I think it's like I feel like we're very early days and the idea of especially when you start getting into tooling that doesn't appreciate getups like you're using to get up to and use something else and that tool has no awareness of the concept so it doesn't flow well with all of the things you're trying to do and get um uh things that aren't state based and all that. So this is going to lead me to our first question from Camden asking dumb questions by the way. No dumb questions here. Um How is get apps? Not just another name for C. D. Anybody want to take that as an answer as a question. How is get up is not just another name for C. D. I have things but we can talk about it. I >>feel like we need victor foster kids. Yeah, sure you would have opinions. Yeah, >>I think it's a very yeah. One person replied said it's a very specific it's an opinionated version of cd. That's a great that's a great answer like that. Yeah. >>It's like an implement. Its it's an implementation of deployment if you want it if you want to use it for that. All right. I realize now it's kind of hard in terms of a physical panel and a virtual panel to figure out who on the panel is gonna, you know, ready to jump in to answer a question. But I'll take it. So um I'll um I'll do my best inner victor and say, you know, it's it's an implementation of C. D. And it's it's a choice right? It's one can just still do docker build and darker pushes and doctor pulls and that's fine. Or use other technologies to deploy containers and pods and change your, your kubernetes infrastructure. But get apps is a different implementation, a different method of doing that same thing at the end of the day. Yeah, >>I like it. I like >>it and I think that goes back to your point about, you know, it's kind of early days still, I think to me what I like about getups in that respect is it's nice to see kubernetes become a platform where people are experimenting with different ways of doing things, right? And so I think that encourages like lots of different patterns and overall that's going to be a good thing for the community because then more, you know, and not everything needs to settle in terms of only one way of doing things, but a lot of different ways of doing things helps people fit, you know, the tooling to their needs, or helps fit kubernetes to their needs, etcetera. Yeah, >>um I agree with that, the, so I'm gonna, since we're getting a load of good questions, so um one of the, one of the, one of the, I want to add to that real quick that one of the uh from the, we've people themselves, because I've had some on the show and one of things that I look at it is distinguishing is with continuous deployment tools, I sort of think that it's almost like previous generation and uh continuous deployment tools can be anything like we would consider Jenkins cd, right, if you if you had an association to a server and do a doctor pull and you know, dr up or dr composed up rather, or if it did a cube control apply uh from you know inside an ssh tunnel or something like that was considered considered C. D. Well get ops is much more rigid I think in terms of um you you need to apply, you have a specific repo that's all about your deployments and because of what tool you're using and that one your commit to a specific repo or in a specific branch that repo depends on how you're setting it up. That is what kicks off a workflow. And then secondly there's an understanding of state. So a lot of these tools now I have uh reconciliation where they they look at the cluster and if things are changing they will actually go back and to get and the robots will take over and will commit that. Hey this thing has changed um and you maybe you human didn't change it, something else might have changed it. So I think that's where getups is approaching it, is that ah we we need to we need to consider more than just a couple of commands that be runnin in a script. Like there needs to be more than that for a getups repo to happen anyway, that's just kind of the the take back to take away I took from a previous conversation with some people um >>we've I don't think that lost, its the last piece is really important, right? I think like for me, C d like Ci cd, they're more philosophical ideas, write a set of principles, right? Like getting an idea or a code change to environments promoting it. It's very kind of pipeline driven um and it's very imperative driven, right? Like our existing CD tools are a lot of the ways that people think about Cd, it would be triggered by an event, maybe a code push and then these other things are happening in sequence until they either fail or pass, right? And then we're done. Getups is very much sitting on the, you know, the reconciliation side, it's changing to a pull based model of reconciliation, right? Like it's very declarative, it's just looking at the state and it's automatically pulling changes when they happen, rather than this imperative trigger driven model. That's not to say that there aren't city tools which we're doing pull based or you can do pull based or get ups is doing anything creatively revolutionary here, but I think that's one of the main things that the ideas that are being introduced into those, like existing C kind of tools and pipelines, um certainly the pull based model and the reconciliation model, which, you know, has a lot in common with kubernetes and how those kind of controllers work, but I think that's the key idea. Yeah. >>Um This is a pretty specific one Tory asks, does anyone have opinions about get ops in a mono repo this is like this is getting into religion a little bit. How many repos are too many repose? How um any thoughts on that? Anyone before I rant, >>go >>for it, go for it? >>Yeah. How I'm using it right now in a monitor repo uh So I'm using GIT hub. Right, so you have what? The workflow and then inside a workflow? Yeah, mo file, I'll >>track the >>actual changes to the workflow itself, as well as a folder, which is basically some sort of service in Amman Arepa, so if any of those things changes, it'll trigger the actual pipeline to run. So that's like the simplest thing that I could figure out how to, you know, get it set up using um get hubs, uh workflow path future. Yeah. And it's worked for me for writing, you know? That's Yeah. >>Yeah, the a lot of these things too, like the mono repo discussion will, it's very tool specific. Each tool has various levels of support for branch branching and different repos and subdirectories are are looking at the defense and to see if there's changes in that specific directory. Yeah. Sorry, um john you're going to say something, >>I was just going to say, I've never really done it, but I imagine the same kind of downsides of mono repo to multiple report would exist there. I mean, you've got the blast radius issues, you've got, you know, how big is the mono repo? Do we have to pull does the tool have to pull that or cashier every time it needs to determine def so what is the support for being able to just look at directories versus you know, I think we can get way down into a deeper conversation. Maybe we'll save it for later on in the conversation about what we're doing. Get up, how do we structure our get reposed? We have super granular repo per environment, Perper out reaper, per cluster repo per whatever or do we have directories per environment or branches per environment? How how is everything organized? I think it's you know, it's going to be one of those, there's never one size fits all. I'll give the class of consultant like it depends answer. Right? >>Yeah, for sure. It's very similar to the code struggle because it depends. >>Right? >>Uh Yeah, it's similar to the to the code problem of teams trying to figure out how many repose for their code. Should they micro service, should they? Semi micro service, macro service. Like I mean, you know because too many repose means you're doing a bunch of repo management, a bunch of changes on your local system, you're constantly get pulling all these different things and uh but if you have one big repo then it's it's a it's a huge monolithic thing that you usually have to deal with. Path based issues of tools that only need to look at a specific directory and um yeah, it's a it's a culture, I feel like yeah, like I keep going back to this, it's a culture thing. Does your what is your team prefer? What do you like? What um what's painful for everyone and who's what's the loudest pain that you need to deal with? Is it is it repo management? That's the pain um or is it uh you know, is that that everyone's in one place and it's really hard to keep too many cooks out of the kitchen, which is a mono repo problem, you know? Um How do we handle security? So this is a great one from Tory again. Another great question back to back. And that's the first time we've done that um security as it pertains to get up to anyone who can commit can change the infrastructure. Yes. >>Yes. So the tooling that you have for your GIT repo and the authentication, authorization and permissions that you apply to the GIT repo using a get server like GIT hub or get lab or whatever your flavor of the day is is going to be how security is handled with respect to changes in your get ups configuration repository. So um that is completely specific to your implementation of that or ones implementation of of how they're handling that. Get repositories that the get ups tooling is looking at. To reconcile changes with respect to the permissions of the for lack of better term robot itself. Right? They get up tooling like flux or Argosy. D Um one kid would would create a user or a service account or uh other kind of authentication measures to limit the permissions for that service account that the Gaddafi's tooling needs to be able to read the repose and and send commits etcetera. So that is well within the realm of what you have already for your for your get your get um repo. Yeah. >>Yeah. A related question is from a g what they like about get apps if done nicely for a newbie it's you can get stuff done easily if you what they dislike about it is when you have too many get repose it becomes just too complicated and I agree. Um was making a joke with a team the other week that you know the developer used to just make one commit and they would pass pass it on to a QA team that would then eventually emerging in the master. But they made the commits to these feature branches or whatever. But now they make a commit, they make a pR there for their code then they go make a PR in the helm chart to update the thing to do that and then they go make a PR in the get ups repeal for Argo. And so we talked about that they're probably like four or five P. R. Is just to get their code in the production. But we were talking about the negative of that but the reality was It's just five or 4 or five prs like it wasn't five different systems that had five different methodologies and tooling and that. So I looked at it I was like well yeah that's kind of a pain in the get sense but you're also dealing with one type. It's a repetitive action but it's it's the one thing I don't have to go to five different systems with five different ways of doing it. And once in the web and one's on the client wants a command line that I don't remember. Um Yeah so it's got pros and cons I think when you >>I think when you get to the scale where those kind of issues are a problem then you're probably at the scale where you can afford to invest some time into automation into that. Right? Like what I've when I've seen this in larger customers or larger organizations if there ever at that stage where okay apps are coming up all the time. You know, there's a 10 X 100 X developer to operations folks who may be creating get repose setting up permissions then that stuff gets automated, right? Like, you know, maybe ticket based systems or whatever. Developers say I need a new app. It templates things or more often using the same model, right of reconciliation and operators and the horrific abuse of cogs that we're seeing in the communities community right now. Um You know, developers can create a crd which just says, hey, I'm creating a new app is called app A and then a controller will pick up that app a definition. It will go create a get a repo Programmatically it will add the right definitely will look up and held up the developers and the permissions that need to be able to get to that repo it will create and template automatically some name space and the clusters that it needs in the environments that it needs, depending on, you know, some metadata it might read. So I think, you know, those are definite problems and they're definitely like a teething, growing pain thing. But once you get to that scale, you kind of need to step back and say, well look, we just need to invest in time into the operational aspect of this and automating this pain away, I think. Yeah, >>yeah. And that ultimately ends in Yeah. Custom tooling, which it's hard to avoid it at scale. I mean, there's there's two, there's almost two conversations here, right. There is what I call the Solo admin Solo devops, I bought that domain Solo devops dot com because, you know, whenever I'm talking to dr khan in the real world, it's like I asked people to raise hands, I don't know how we can raise hands here, but I would ask people to raise hands and see how many of you here are. The sole person responsible for deploying the app that your team makes and like a quarter of the room would raise their hand. So I call that solo devops like those, that person can't make all the custom tooling in the world. So they really need dr like solutions where it's opinionated, the workflow is sort of built in and they don't have to wrangle things together with a bunch of glue, you know, in other words bash. Um and so this kind of comes to a conversation uh starting this question from lee he's asking how do you combine get ops with ci cd, especially the continuous bit. How do you avoid having a human uh sort of the complaint the team I was working with has, how do you avoid a human editing and get committing for every single deploy? They've settled on customized templates and a script for routine updates. So as a seed for this conference, this question I'm gonna ask you all uh instead of that specific question cause it's a little open ended. Um Tell me whether you agree with this. I I kind of look at the image, the image artifact because the doctor image or container image in general is an artifact that I I view it that way and that thing going into the registry with the right label or right part of the label. Um That tag rather not the label but the tag that to me is like one of the great demarche points of, we're kind of done with Ci and we're now into the deployment phase and it doesn't necessarily mean the tooling is a clear cut there, but that artifact being shipped in a specific way or promoted as we sometimes say. Um what do you think? Does anyone have opinions on that? I don't even know if that's the right opinion to have so mhm. >>So um I think what you're, what you're getting at is that get ups, models can trigger off of different events um to trigger the reconciliation loop. And one way to do that is if the image, if it notices a image change in the registry, the other is if there's a commit event on a specific rebo and branch and it's up to, you are up to the person that's implementing their get ups model, what event to trigger there, that reconciliation loop off of, You can do both, you can do one or the other. It also depends on the Templeton engine that you're using on top of um on top of kubernetes, such as helm or um you know, the other ones that are out there or if you're not even doing that, then, you know straight. Yeah, mo um so it kind of just depends, but those are the typically the two options one has and a combination of of those to trigger that event. You can also just trigger it manually, right? You can go into the command line and force a a, you know, a really like a scan or a new reconciliation loop to occur. So it kind of just, I don't want to say this, but it depends on what you're trying to do and what makes sense in your pipeline. Right? So if you're if you're set up where you are tag, if you're doing it based off of image tags, then you probably want to use get ups in a way that you're using the image tags. Right. And the pattern that you've established there, if you're not really doing that and you're more around, like, different branches are mapped to different environments, then triggered off of the correct branch. And that's where the permissions also come into play. Where if you don't want someone to touch production and you've got your getups for your production cluster based off of like uh you know, a main branch, then whoever can push a change to that main branch has the authority to push that change to production. Right? So that's your authentication and permissions um system same for the registry itself. Right. So >>Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, anyone else have any thoughts on that? I was about to go to the next topic, >>I was going to say. I think certain tools dictate the approach, like, if you're using Argosy d it's I think I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only way to use it right now is just through image modification. Like, the manifest changes, it looks at a specific directory and anything changes then it will do its thing. And uh Synchronize the cost there with whatever's and get >>Yeah, flux has both. Yeah, and flux has both. So it it kind of depends. I think you can make our go do that too, but uh this is back to what we were saying in the beginning, uh you know, these things are changing, right? So that might be what it is right now in terms of triggering the reconciliation loops and get ups, tooling, but there might be other events in the future that might trigger it, and it's not completely stand alone because you still need you're tooling to do any kind of testing or whatever you have in terms of like the specific pipeline. So oftentimes you're bolting in getups into some other part of broader Cfd solution. That makes sense. Yeah, >>we've got a lot of questions about secrets or people that are asking about secrets. >>So my my tongue and cheek answered the secrets question was, what's the best practices for kubernetes? Secrets? That's the same thing for secrets with good apps? Uh getups is not last time I checked and last time I was running this stuff get ups is not has nothing to do with secrets in that sense. It's just there to get your stuff running on communities. So, um there's probably a really good session on secrets at dr concept. I >>would agree with you, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, get off stools, I mean every every project of mine handles secrets differently. Uh huh. And I think I'm not sure if it was even when I was talking to but talking to someone recently that I'm very bullish on get up actions, I love get up actions, it's not great for deployments yet, but we do have this new thing and get hub environments, I think it's called. So it allows me at least the store secrets per environment, which it didn't have the concept of that before, which you know, if you if any of you running kubernetes out there, you typically end up when you start running kubernetes, you end up with more than one kubernetes, like you're going to end up with a lot of clusters at some point, at least many multiple, more than two. Um and so if you're trying to store secret somewhere, you do have and there's a discussion happening in chat right now where people are talking about um sealed secrets which if you haven't heard of that, go look that up and just be versed on what sealed secrets is because it's a it's a fantastic concept for how to store secrets in the public. Um I love it because I'm a big P. K. I nerd but um it's not the only way and it doesn't fit all models. So I have clients that use A W. S. Secrets because they're in A W. S. And then they just have to use the kubernetes external secret. But again like like like normal sand, you know, it's that doesn't really affect get ops, get ops is just applying whatever helm charts or jahmal or images that you're, you're you're deploying, get off. It was more about the approach of when the changes happen and whether it's a push or pull model like we're talking about and you know, >>I would say there's a bunch of prerequisites to get ups secrets being one of them because the risk of you putting a secret into your git repo if you haven't figured out your community secrets architecture and start diving into getups is high and removing secrets from get repose is you know, could be its own industry, right. It's >>a thing, >>how do >>I hide this? How do I obscure this commit that's already now on a dozen machines. >>So there are some prerequisites in terms of when you're ready to adopt get up. So I think is the right way of saying the answer to that secrets being one of them. >>I think the secrets was the thing that made me, you know, like two or three years ago made me kind of see the ah ha moment when it came to get ups which, which was that the premier thing that everyone used to say about get up about why it was great. Was its the single source of truth. There's no state anywhere else. You just need to look at git. Um and then secrets may be realized along with a bunch of other things down the line that is not true and will never be true. So as soon as you can lose the dogmatism about everything is going to be and get it's fantastic. As long as you've understood everything is not going to get. There are things which will absolutely never be and get some tools just don't deal with that. They need to earn their own state, especially in communities, some controls on their own state. You know, cuz sealed secrets and and other projects like SOps and I think there are two or three others. That's a great way of dealing with secrets if you want to keep them in get. But you know, projects like vault more kind of like what I would say, production grade secret strategies. Right? And if you're in AWS or a cloud, you're more likely to be using their secrets. Your secret policy is maybe not dictated by you in large organizations might be dictated by CSO or security or Great. Like I think once if you, if you're trying to adopt getups or you're thinking about it, get the dogmatism of get as a single point of truth out of your mind and think about getups more as a philosophy and a set of best practice principles, then you will be in much better stead, >>right? Yeah. >>People are asking more questions in chat like infrastructure as code plus C d essentially get ups or C I rather, um, these are all great questions and a part of the debate, I'm actually just going to throw up on screen. I'm gonna put this in chat, but this is, this is to me the source, Right? So we worked with when they coined the term. We, a lot of us have been trying to get, if we talk about the history for a minute and then tell me if I'm getting this right. Um, a lot of us were trying to automate all these different parts of the puzzle, but a lot of them, they, some things might have been infrastructure as code. Some things weren't, some things were sort of like settings is coded, like you're going to Jenkins and type in secrets and settings or type in a certain thing in the settings of Jenkins and then that it wasn't really in get and so what we was trying to go for was a way to have almost like eventually a two way state understanding where get might change your infrastructure but then your infrastructure might also change and needs to be reflected in the get if the get is trying to be the single source of truth. Um and like you're saying the reality is that you're never gonna have one repo that has all of your infrastructure in it, like you would have to have, you have to have all your terra form, anything else you're spinning up. Right. Um but anyway, I'm gonna put this link in chat. So this guide actually, uh one of things they talk about is what it's not, so it's, it's kind of great to read through the different requirements and like what I was saying well ago um mhm. Having having ci having infrastructure as code and then trying a little bit of continuous deployment out, it's probably a prerequisite. Forget ops so it's hard to just jump into that when you don't already have infrastructure as code because a machine doing stuff on your behalf, it means that you have to have things documented and somewhere and get repo but let me put this in the in the >>chitty chat, I would like to know if the other panelists agree, but I think get apps is a okay. I would say it's a moderate level, it's not a beginner level communities thing, it's like a moderate level advanced, a little bit more advanced level. Um One can start off using it but you definitely have to have some pre recs in place or some understanding of like a pattern in place. Um So what do the other folks think about that opinion? >>I think if you're if you're trying to use get out before, you know what problem you have, you're probably gonna be in trouble. Right. It's like having a solution to it probably don't have yet. Mhm. Right. I mean if if you're just evil or and you're just typing, keep control apply, you're one person right, Get off. It doesn't seem like a big a big jump, like, I mean it doesn't like why would I do that? I'm just, I'm just gonna inside, it's the type of get commit right, I'm typing Q control apply. But I think one of the rules from we've is none of your developers and none of your admins can have cute control access to the cluster because if you can't, if you do have access and you can just apply something, then that's just infrastructure as code. That's just continuous deployment, that's, that's not really get ops um, getups implies that the only way things get into the cluster is through the get up, get automation that you're using with, you know, flux Argo, we haven't talked about, what's the other one that Victor Farsi talks about, by the way people are asking about victor, because victor would love to talk about this stuff, but he's in my next life, so come back in an hour and a half or whatever and victor is going to be talking about sys, admin list with me. Um >>you gotta ask him nothing but get up questions in the next, >>confuse them, confuse them. But anyway, that, that, that's um, it's hard, it's hard to understand and without having tried it, I think conceptually it's a little challenging >>one thing with getups, especially based off the we've works blog post that you just put up on there. It's an opinionated way of doing something. Uh you know, it's an opinionated way of of delivering changes to an environment to your kubernetes environment. So it's opinionated were often not used to seeing things that are very opinionated in this sense, in the in the ecosystem, but get apps is a opinionated thing. It's it's one way of doing it. Um there are ways to change it and like there are options um like what we were talking about in terms of the events that trigger, but the way that it's structured is an opinion opinionated way both from like a tooling perspective, like using get etcetera, but also from a devops cultural perspective, right? Like you were talking about not having anyone access cube control and changing the cluster directly. That's a philosophical opinion that get ups forces you to adopt otherwise. It kind of breaks the model and um I just I want everyone to just understand that. That is very opinion, anything in that sense. Yeah, >>polygamy is another thing. Infrastructure as code. Um someone's mentioning plummy and chat, I just had actually my life show self plug bread that live go there. I'm on Youtube every week. I did the same thing. These these are my friends um and had palami on two weeks ago uh last week, remember uh and it was in the last couple of weeks and we talked about their infrastructure as code solution. Were actually writing code instead of um oh that's an interesting take on uh developer team sort of owning coding the infrastructure through code rather than Yamil as a data language. I don't really have an opinion on it yet because I haven't used it in production or anything in the real real world, but um, I'm not sure how much they are applying trying to go towards the get up stuff. I will do a plug for Solomon hikes. Who has a, the beginning of the day, it's already happened so you can go back and watch it. It's a, it's a, what's it called? Q. Rethinking application delivery with Q. And build kit. So go look this up. This is the found co founder of Dr and former CTO Solomon hikes at the beginning of the day. He has a tool called dagger. I'm not sure why the title of the talk is delivering with Q. And built it, but the tool is showing off in there for an hour is called dagger. And it's, it's an interesting idea on how to apply a lot of this opinionated automated stuff to uh, to deployment and it's get off space and you use Q language. It's a graph language. I watched most of it and it was a really interesting take. I'm excited to see if that takes off and if they try that because it's another way that you can get a little bit more advanced with your you're get deployments and without having to just stick everything in Yemen, which is kind of what we're in today with helm charts and what not. All right. More questions about secrets, I think. I think we're not going to have a whole lot of more, a lot more about secrets basically. Uh put secrets in your cluster to start with and kubernetes in encrypted, you know, thing. And then, you know, as it gets harder, then you have to find another solution when you have five clusters, you don't wanna have to do it five times. That's when you have to go for Walton A W. S secrets and all >>that. Right? I'm gonna post it note. Yeah. Crm into the cluster. Just kidding. >>Yes, there are recordings of this. Yes, they will be later. Uh, because we're that these are all gonna be on youtube later. Um, yeah, detects secrets cushion saying detect secrets or get Guardian are absolute requirements. I think it's in reference to your secrets comment earlier. Um, Camels asking about Cuban is dropping support for Docker that this is not the place to ask for that, but it, it is uh, basically it's a Nonevent Marantz has actually just created that same plug in available in a different repos. So if you want to keep using Docker and kubernetes, you know, you can do it like it's no big deal. Most of us aren't using doctor in our communities anyway, so we're using like container D or whatever is provided to us by our provider. Um yeah, thank you so much for all these comments. These are great people helping each other and chat. I feel like we're just here to make sure the chats available so people can help each other. >>I feel like I want to pick up on something when you mentioned pollux me, I think there's a um we're talking about getups but I think in the original like the origination of that I guess was deploying applications to clusters right, picking up deployment manifest. But I think with the gloomy and I obviously terra form and things have been around a long time, folks are starting to apply this I think I found one earlier which was like um kub stack the Terror Forms get ups framework. Um but also with the advent of things like cluster A. P. I. Um in the Cuban at the space where you can declare actively build the infrastructure for your clusters and build the cluster right? We're not just talking about deploying applications, the cluster A. P. I will talk to a W. S. Spin up, VPc spin up machines, you know, we'll do the same kind of things that terra form does and and those other tools do I think applying getups principles to the infrastructure spin up right, the proper infrastructure as code stuff, constantly applying Terror form um you know, plans and whatever, constantly applying cluster Api resources spinning up stuff in those clouds. That's a super interesting. Um you know, extension of this area, I'd be curious to see if what the folks think about that. >>Yeah, that's why I picked this topic is one of my three. Uh I got I got to pick the topics. I was like the three things that there like the most bleeding edge exciting. Most people haven't, we haven't basically we haven't figured all this out yet. We as an industry, so um it's I think we're gonna see more ideas on it. Um what's the one with the popsicle as the as the icon victor talks about all the time? It's not it's another getups like tool, but it's um it's getups for you use this kubernetes limit and then we have to look it up, >>You're talking about cross plane. >>So >>my >>wife is over here with the sound effects and the first sound effect of the day that she chooses to use is one. >>All right, can we pick it? Let's let's find another question bret >>I'm searching >>so many of them. All right, so uh I think one really quick one is getups only for kubernetes, I think the main to tooling to tools that we're talking about, our Argosy D and flux and they're mostly geared toward kubernetes deployments but there's a, it seems like they're organized in a way that there's a clean abstraction in with respect to the agent that's doing the deployment and the tooling that that can interact with. So I would imagine that in the future and this might be true already right now that get ups could be applied to other types of deployments at some point in the future. But right now it's mostly focused and treats kubernetes as a first class citizen or the tooling on top of kubernetes, let's say something like how as a first class citizen? Yeah, to Brett, >>to me the field, back to you bret the thing I was looking for is cross plane. So that's another tool. Um Victor has been uh sharing a lot about it in Youtube cross plane and that is basically runs inside a kubernetes, but it handles your other infrastructure besides your app. It allows you to like get ops, you're a W. S stuff by using the kubernetes state engine as a, as a way to manage that. And I have not used it yet, but he does some really great demos on Youtube. So people are liking this idea of get off, so they're trying to figure out how do we, how do we manage state? How do we uh because the probably terra form is that, well, there's many problems, but it's always a lot of problems, but in the get outs world it's not quite the right fit yet, It might be, but you still, it's still largely as expected for people to, you know, like type the command, um, and it keeps state locally the ss, clouds and all that. And but the other thing is I'm I'm now realizing that when I saw the demo from Solomon, I'm going back to the Solomon hikes thing. He was using the demo and he was showing it apply deploying something on S three buckets, employing internet wifi and deploying it on google other things beyond kubernetes and saying that it's all getups approach. So I think we're just at the very beginning of seeing because it all started with kubernetes and now there's a swarm one, you can look up swarm, get office and there's a swarm, I can't take the name of it. Swarm sink I think is what's called swarm sink on git hub, which allows you to do swarm based getups like things. And now we're seeing these other tools coming out. They're saying we're going to try to do the get ups concepts, but not for kubernetes specifically and that's I think, you know, infrastructure as code started with certain areas of the world and then now then now we all just assume that you're going to have an infrastructure as code way of doing whatever that is and I think get off is going to have that same approach where pretty soon, you know, we'll have get apps for all the clouds stuff and it won't just be flexor Argo. And then that's the weird thing is will flex and Argo support all those things or will it just be focused on kubernetes apps? You know, community stuff? >>There's also, I think this is what you're alluding to. There is a trend of using um kubernetes and see rDS to provision and control things that are outside of communities like the cloud service providers services as if they were first class entities within kubernetes so that you can use the kubernetes um focus tooling for things that are not communities through the kubernetes interface communities. Yeah, >>yeah, even criticism. >>Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to say that sounds like cross plane. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's that's uh there were, you know, for the last couple of years, it's been flux and are going back and forth. Um they're like frenemies, you know, and they've been going back and forth with iterating on these ideas of how do we manage this complicated thing? That is many kubernetes clusters? Um because like Argo, I don't know if the flux V two can do this, but Argo can manage multiple clusters now from one cluster, so your, you can manage other clusters, technically external things from a single entity. Um Originally flux couldn't do that, but I'm going to say that V two can, I don't actually >>know. Um I think all that is gonna, I think that's going to consolidate in the future. All right. In terms of like the common feature set, what Iver and john what do you think? >>I mean, I think it's already begun, right, I think haven't, didn't they collaborate on a common engine? I don't know whether it's finished yet, but I think they're working towards a common getups engine and then they're just going to layer on features on top. But I think, I mean, I think that's interesting, right, because where it runs and where it interacts with, if we're talking about a pull based model, it shouldn't, it's decentralized to a certain extent, right? We need get and we need the agent which is pulling if we're saying there's something else which is orchestrating something that we start to like fuzzy the model even right. Like is this state living somewhere else, then I think that's just interesting as well. I thought flux was completely decentralized, but I know you install our go somewhere like the cargo has a server as well, but it's been a while since I've looked in depth at them. But I think the, you know, does that muddy the agent only pull model? >>I'm reading a >>Yeah, I would say that there's like a process of natural selection going on as as the C. N. C. F. Landscape evolves and grows bigger and a lot of divide and conquer right now. But I think as certain things kind of get more prominent >>and popular, I think >>it starts to trend and it inspires other things and then it starts to aggregate and you know, kind of get back into like a unified kind of like core. Maybe like for instance, cross plane, I feel like it shouldn't even really exist. It should be, it like it's a communities add on, but it should be built in, it should be built into kubernetes, like why doesn't this exist already >>for like controlling a cloud? >>Yeah, like just, you know, having this interface with the cloud provider and be able to Yeah, >>exactly. Yeah, and it kinda, you're right. That kinda happens because you do, I mean when you start talking about storage providers and networking providers was very specific implementations of operators or just individual controllers that do operate and control other resources in the cloud, but certainly not universally right. Not every feature of AWS is available to kubernetes out of the box. Um and you know, it, one of the challenges across plane is you gotta have kubernetes before you can deploy kubernetes. Like there's a chicken and egg issue there where if you're going to use, if you're going to use our cross plane for your other infrastructure, but it's gotta, but it has to run on kubernetes who creates that first kubernetes in order for you to put that on there. And victor talks about one of his videos, the same problem with flux and Argo where like Argo, you can't deploy Argo itself with getups. There has to be that initial, I did a thing with, I'm a human and I typed in some commands on a server and things happened but they don't really have an easy deployment method for getting our go up and running using simply nothing but a get push to an existing system. There's something like that. So it's a it's an interesting problem of day one infrastructure which is again only day one, I think data is way more interesting and hard, but um how can we spend these things up if they're all depending on each other and who is the first one to get started? >>I mean it's true of everything though, I mean at the end of that you need some kind of big bang kind of function too, you know, I started running start everything I >>think without going over that, sorry, without going off on a tangent. I was, I was gonna say there's a, if folks have heard of kind which is kubernetes and Docker, which is a mini kubernetes cluster, you can run in a Docker container or each container will run as a as a node. Um you know, that's been a really good way to spin up things like clusters. KPI because they boot strap a local kind, install the manifests, it will go and spin up a fully sized cluster, it will transfer its resources over there and then it will die itself. Right? So that, that's kind of bootstrapping itself. And I think a couple of folks in the community, Jason to Tiberius, I think he works for Quinyx metal um has, has experimented with like an even more minimal just Api server, so we're really just leveraging the kubernetes ideas of like a reconciliation loop and a controller. We just need something to bootstrap with those C R D s and get something going and then go away again. So I think that's gonna be a pattern that comes up kind of more and more >>Yeah, for sure. Um, and uh, the next, next quick answer to the question, Angel asked what your thoughts on getups being a niche to get or versus others vcs tools? Well, if I knew anyone who is using anything other than get, I would say no, you know, get ops is a horrible name. It should just be CVS office, but that doesn't or vcs ops or whatever like that, but that doesn't roll off the tongue. So someone had to come up with the get ups phrase. Um but absolutely, it's all about version control solutions used for infrastructure, not code. Um might get doctor asks a great question, we're not gonna have time for it, but maybe people can reply and chat with what they think but about infrastructure and code, the lines being blurred and that do develop, how much of infrastructure does developer do developers need to know? Essentially, they're having to know all the things. Um so unfortunately we've had way more questions like every panel here today with all the great community, we've got way more questions we can handle in this time. So we're gonna have to wrap it up and say goodbye. Go to the next live panel. I believe the next one is um on developer, developer specific setups that's gonna be peter running that panel. Something about development in containers and I'm sure it's gonna be great. Just like this one. So let's go around the room where can people find you on the internet? I'm at Brett fisher on twitter. That's where you can usually find me most days you are? >>Yeah, I'm on twitter to um, I'll put it in the chat. It's kind of confusing because the TSR seven. >>Okay. Yeah, that's right. You can't just say it. You can also look at the blow of the video and like our faces are there and if you click on them, it tells you our twitter in Arlington and stuff, john >>John Harris 85, pretty much everywhere. Get hub Twitter slack, etc. >>Yeah >>and normal, normal faults or just, you know, living on Youtube live with Brett. >>Yeah, we're all on the twitter so go check us out there and thank you so much for joining. Uh thank you so much to you all for being here. I really appreciate you taking time in your busy schedule to join me for a little chit chat. Um Yes, all the, all the cheers, yes. >>And I think this kid apps loop has been declarative lee reconciled. >>Yeah, there we go. And with that ladies and gentlemen, uh bid you would do, we will see you in the next, next round coming up next with Peter >>bye.

>>Welcome to this cube conversation that is a part of the AWS startup showcase. I'm lisa martin I've got with me now the ceo of amazon john Vitaly john welcome to the cube >>lisa. It's a pleasure to be here. Nice to see you. >>Likewise give our audience in a real liaison and what it is that you guys do specifically in pharma and life sciences. >>Well, you can find that in our, the name of the company is on uh, we think of us as leading uh, customers to the horizon of AI and pharmaceutical, biological manufacturing. And uh, we're all about helping our customers take The step into Pharma 40 and really realized the value of leveraging, machine learning and artificial intelligence in the manufacturing process so they can get higher yields and predictability and ultimately better outcomes for their patients. >>Is your technology built on AWS? >>Absolutely. From the ground up. We leverage, yeah, we leveraged as much as we can from AWS innovation and, you know, a few years ago, when our founders envisioned the future of manufacturing in this industry and where it needs to go first thought was go with a leader to build the solutions and of course A W. S. Is by far the largest provider of this type of technology. And we're happy to say that we're helping and partnering with A W. S. Two to advance the science of artificial intelligence in life sciences. And uh it's just a natural fit for us to continue to leverage the platform on behalf of our customers. >>I like that. The Ai horizon. Excellent. So talk to me a little bit about, you know, the last year has been presented many challenges and also opportunities for people in every industry. I'm just wondering what are some of the changes that we've seen? Farm and life sciences companies have become household names for example, but talk to me about some of the the key initiatives in smart manufacturing and what pharma companies require. >>Well sure, you know farmer companies and biotech companies like look into the lessons from other industries where ai has been widely adopted. If you look at uh manufacturing and other industries has been widely adopted for a number of years. Tesla is a great example of how to use A. I. And robotics and and data science uh to advance uh the efficiency of manufacturing globally. Uh that's exactly what we're trying to achieve here in in life sciences. So um you know, a lot of the leading innovators in this space have been working in their labs with data science teams to you know find new ways to collect data uh to cleanse that data, make it data that's useful across the enterprise. Um but they haven't really tackled, you know, continuous processing in manufacturing yet. There are a number of leaders that are mapping out strategies and they've begun to go down this path. Um But most are really looking at how first to bring the data together in a way that it could be democratized and anonymous in some cases and used across the enterprise. Uh There's a model that we've adopted in terms of our product strategy and how we engage customers and that's the uh the the pharmaceutical maturity model which was developed by the bio forum. This maturity models is a great way for companies and vendors alike innovators to look at how to help Advance their capabilities from one level to the next. And so we help customers understand where they are in that journey and we look for the areas where they can get traction more quickly. They can see value sooner and therefore the adoption would would be accelerating across across their their sites. And in different ways of use. >>Is that maturity model? That farm of maturity model? Is it is it built on or based on digital transformation? >>Absolutely. It's all about digital transformation. And so the model really begins with pre digital and you'd be amazed to find I think the the amount of Excel spreadsheets that are still used in manufacturing today and that would be what we would consider to be pretty much pre digital because that data is not accessible. It's only used by the operator or the user. So it's really about getting from that level to uh breaking down data silos and bringing that data together and harmonizing the data and making it useful. The next level would be about the connected plant actually connecting machines and data lakes um to begin to get more value and find find more ways to improve the processes. And then you move up to using advanced analytics and AI and then ultimately have an enterprise wide adaptive manufacturing capabilities, which is really the ultimate vision, ultimate goal. Every manufacturer has. >>One of the things that we've been talking about for the last 14 plus months or so is really the acceleration in cloud adoption, digital transformation as really a survival mechanism that many industries undertook. And we saw all of us go remote or many of us and be dependent on cloud based collaboration tools. For example, I'm curious in the pharmaceutical industry again, as I said, you know, we we know that the big three and for household names that many of us have been following for the last 14 months or so. What have you seen in terms of acceleration? Informal companies going all right, we need to figure out where we are in this maturity model. We need to be able to accelerate, you know, drug discovery, be able to get access to data. Has that accelerated in the Covid era? >>Covid has been the great catalyst of all time for this industry. Ah and I think it was a wake up call for a lot of, a lot of people in the industry to recognize that uh, just because we have the highest quality standards and we have highest level of compliance requirements and um, we ultimately all think about efficacy and patient safety as our goal to achieve the highest levels of quality. Everyone agrees with that. What the realization was is that we do not have the capacity in any, any geography or with any company, um, to meet the demands that we're seeing today demands to get product to market the demand to get the supply chain right and make it work for manufacturing. The, uh, the uh, The opportunity to partner to get there was, you know, you can see that by the way companies came together to partner for COVID-19 vaccine manufacturing production. And so, um, it was a wake up call that it's time to get over the kind of cultural barriers, risk aversion and really come together to coalesce around a a smart manufacturing strategy that has to be combined with a G XP or good manufacturing compliance standards. And that has to be designed in to the technology and manufacturing processes Together. That's Pharma 4.0, >>got it. Thank you. Let's dig in more to that GSP compliance. And you guys, we talk about that in different industries. The X being, you know, X for X type of industry, talk to me about the compliance regulations and your G XP AI platform and how you guys built on top of amazon, help customers evolve their maturity and facilitate complaints. >>Absolutely. So as I alluded to earlier, one of the biggest challenges is just getting the data together in a place that you can actually manage it. And because there's so many legacy systems and on predominantly on prem technologies and use today, cloud is starting to gain a lot more traction, but it's been limited to uh kind of tier two and tier three data. Uh so now we're seeing uh you know, the recognition that uh just having a data link isn't enough. And so uh we have to overcome, you know, the biggest barrier is really a version to change and change management is really a huge part of any customer being successful. And I think with a W S and us, we were working together to help customers customers understand the type of change management that's required. It's not enough to say, well, we're going to apply the old techniques and processes and use new technology. It just doesn't work that way. If you're adding people uh, and scaling up people just to do validation, worked on a brand new platform, like AWS offers, like we offer on top of AWS, you just won't get three return on investment, you won't get the outcomes and results you're targeting. Uh you have to really have a full strategy in place. Um but you can, and start in small ways, you can start to get traction with use cases that might not have the a huge impact that you're looking for, but it's a way to get started. And uh, the AWS platform is, you know, a great way to look at um, a strategy to scale manufacturing not just in one site but across multiple sites because it's really a data management strategy uh for us using US components uh to build our data collection technology was the starting point. So how do you bring this day together and make it easy and with low overhead and begin to use Ai at the point of collection? So we built our technology with AWS components to do that it's called we call them be data feeders and those are agents that go out and collect that data and bring it together. We also because of the way at AWS innovated around data management we can use a multitude of components to continue to build capabilities on top of what we have today. So we're excited to partner to follow the AWS Roadmap but also continue to add value to what A. W. S. Does today for customers. >>Right? Seems very symbiotic but also your gives you the platform gives you the agility and flexibility that you need to turn things on a dime. I like how you said Covid was a catalyst. I've been saying that for a year now there are things that it has catalyzed for the good and one of those that we've seen repeatedly is that the need for real time data access in many industries like life sciences and pharma is no longer a nice to have but it's incredibly challenging to get real time access to high quality data. Be able to run analytics on that you know, identify where the supply chain in the manufacturing process. For example things can be optimized. Give me an example or some examples of some of the use cases that you guys are working with customers on. I imagine things like that to process optimization, anomaly detection. But what are some of those key use cases in which you really excel? >>Well, it all starts with with what we can do around predictions. There's a lot of data science work being done today, understand variability and how to reduce deviations and how to get more um of predictions to know what is expected to happen. Uh But a lot of that doesn't get applied to the processes. It's not applied as a change the process because that requires revalidation of that entire process. Our platform brings huge value to customers and partners because we do the qualification and validation on the platform in real time. And so that eliminates the needs to go back out and deploy people and uh track and re document uh and re validate what's going on in the process. So that that just takes a huge uh responsibility in some cases liabilities off off of the operators and uh the folks analyzing the data. So that's that's really to get to real time. You have to think carefully about how to apply apply ai because a I was developed in a scientific way but you also have to apply it in a scientific way to to these critical processes in manufacturing. And so that's that's only done uh on a platform, you can't do it on a kind of a stand alone basis. You have to leverage a platform because you're analysing changes to the data and to the code being used to collect and analyze the data that all has to be documented. And that's that's done by our capabilities are using to audit or create audit trails uh to any changes that are happening in the process. And so that's a critical critical process monitoring capability. That is almost impossible to do manually. Uh Some some would say it's impossible to do manually. Uh so uh the the ability to to qualify algorithms to validate in real time enables real time manufacturing and there's a F. D A. Uh I would I would say mandate but guidance called continuous process verification cPV that they will be coming out with additional guidance on that this year. That's really there to uh tell tell manufacturers that they should be getting to real time capabilities. They should be driving their investments and and types of deployments to get to real time manufacturing. That's the only way you can predict deviations and predict anomalies and deal with them in the process and track it. >>So give me give me a snapshot of a customer or two that you've worked with in the last year as they were rapidly evolving and adjusting to the changes going on. How did you help some of these customers extract more value from their pharma manufacturing processes, understand what it is that they need to do to embrace A. I. And get to that real time. >>Absolutely. So, you know, most of our customers are facing the challenge and dilemma that just adding more people and more resources and even upgrading existing technologies or adding more data scientist has a limit. They've reached the limit of improvement that they can make to these processes in the output in manufacturing. So the next natural step would be to say, okay, what science can I apply here and what technology is available To really get to that next one or two improvement in the processes. And it's really critical to look at um you know, not just one use case, but how can I address multiple problems using the same technology? So bringing multi variant uh multi variable excuse me. Um analysis capabilities um is is something that's done in every other industry um but it has not been applied here in terms of changing how manufacturing works today. We can do that, we can we can do multi variable analysis in real time, we can predict what will happen. We can actually alert the operator to make changes to the process based on uh a number of predictions of what will happen in a batch or series of matches in manufacturing. We also bring unstructured data into those calculations that wasn't possible before cloud technology came along and before a I was deployed. Um So now we can look at environmental inputs, we can look at um upstream data that can be used for improving um you know, the yield on batches. So the you know, the main um focus today is you know, how do I get, reduce my risk around asset management? How can I improve visibility into the supply chain? How can I reduce deviations in these processes? How can I get more yield? How can I optimize the yield uh in any given batch uh to improve uh you know, the entire process but also reduce costs in each step of the way. Uh So uh the good news is that when you apply our technology and our know how uh there's an immediate positive impact. There's a customer, we're working with very large customer where we walked in and they said we have this problem, we've reached a certain level of optimization and yield. We can't seem to get it to go any higher. and within six weeks we had a solution in place and we are saving them tens of millions of dollars in material loss just in that once one step in the process that's worth hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of finished product. Uh and if you apply that across multiple lines and across multiple manufacturing sites for that customer, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars of savings, um >>significant impact, significant business impact that your customers I saw on the website, you know, R. O. I. And was at six when I get this right. I had it here somewhere um quite quickly. But the key thing there is that these organizations actually are really moving their business forward. You just gave some great examples of how you can do that. And just kind of a phase one of the project. Let me ask you this in in a post Covid world, assuming we'll get there hopefully soon. Where is in your opinion? Um Ai and ml for pharma companies, is it going to be something that is is for those that adopt it and adopt all the change management needed to do that? Is it going to be kind of the factor in deciding the winners and the losers of tomorrow? Okay, >>well, I don't want to lay down predictions like that, but I would, what I would say is uh all of thought leaders out there have have openly shared and privately shared that this is exactly where the industry has to go to meet the demands. Not just of ramping up COVID-19 vaccine production on a global basis, which we have to do. It's also dealing with how do we how do we uh scale up for personalized medicine, which requires small, small batch manufacturing? How do we turn over lines of manufacturing more efficiently to get more drugs to market more different types of drugs to market, how to contract manufacturers deal with all these pressures, um, and still serve their customers and innovate. Uh, there's also the rise of generics there, you know, that's bringing on cost pressures for big pharma particularly. And so these are all moving the industry in the right direction to respond to these on an individual basis. Would would definitely require the use of Ai and Ml But when you bring it all together, there's a huge huge of push for finding and finding breakthroughs to increase capacity and quality at the same time. >>Yeah, tremendous opportunity. My last question for you, john is a bit more on the personal side. I know you're a serial entrepreneur. What drew you to a zon when you have the opportunity? I can only imagine based on some of the things that you've said. But what was it that you said? This is my next great >>opportunity. That's a great question because I asked myself that question, uh so having been in the industry for for a long time, having been with very innovative companies my whole career, uh I knew that uh manufacturing had fallen behind even further in terms of innovating using the latest cloud technologies and ai in particular, I knew that from running another company uh that focused on the use of predictive analytics. And so uh given all the vectors coming together, the market pressure that's happening on the technology, absolutely. Being a maturity level that we could we could make these things a reality for customers in the size of the challenge. And market opportunity was just overwhelming. It was it was enough to make me jump in with both feet. So I'm very happy uh to be leading such a great team and amazing, amazing talent at amazon and super excited about our partnership with a W. S and where that's going and solving very, very complex and very critical, uh, challenges that our customers are facing together as partners. >>Absolutely. Well, john, thank you for joining me today and talking to us about who is on is what you're doing, particularly in pharma and life sciences, smart manufacturing and what you're enabling in a covid catalysis sort of way. We appreciate you joining us here today. >>This has been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. >>Likewise for john Vitaly, I'm lisa martin, you're watching the cube.