>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from The Cube and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Despite it's faster growth and infrastructure as a service, relative to AWS and Azure, Google Cloud platform remains a third wheel in the race for cloud dominance. Google begins its Cloud Next online event starting July fourteenth in a series of nine rolling sessions that go through early September. Ahead of that, we want to update you on our most current data on Google's cloud business. Hello everyone, this is Dave Vellante, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube insights, powered by ETR. In this session, we'll review the current state of cloud, and Google's position in the market. We'll drill into the ETR data and share fresh insights from our partner and the Cube community. So let's get right into it. You know, Google, if you think about it, was actually very early into the cloud game. Google's 2004 IPO was a milestone event for the tech industry, and in you know many ways, it really marked the end of the post-dotcom malaise. It signaled the beginning of a new era of innovation. During this time, Google was busy building out its massive, global cloud infrastructure, probably the largest in the world, with undersea cables, global data centers, and tools like the Google file system, and of course Bigtable. But it took many years for Google to pull its head out of its ad serving butt and realize the opportunity to sell its cloud services to global enterprises. Bigtable, Google's no-sequel database, for example, was released in 2005, but it wasn't until 2015 that Google made this service available to its customers. That was the same year Google brought in VMware founder, Diane Greene to begin its enterprise journey in earnest. Now Google, they have a dizzying array of services in compute, storage, database, networking, IT ops, dev tools, machine learning, AI, analytics, big data, security, on and on and on. Name a category and it's likely that Google has something in it as a cloud service. But Google, to this day, still hasn't figured out how to sell to the enterprise. It really struggles to find the right formula. So, as you know, Google brought in Thomas Kurian from Oracle, to figure this out. Of course Kurian is, he's going to go with Google's strengths like analytics and database, but it has to have differentiation, so it comes up with unique pricing models like sustained discounts, which automatically apply discount for heavy usage, as opposed to forcing users to buy reserved instances such as what AWS does. You know Google is more aggressive partnering around multi-cloud, for instance, with Anthos, and it's smartly open-sourced Kubernetes really to minimize the importance of, physically, where workloads run. The bottom-line, however, is that these moves are necessary for Google to compete because it lags behind the leaders. And it has a long way to go before it's going to be satisfied with its cloud business. Let's look at the IaaS market in context. Now, I don't want to say it's all gloom and doom for Google. Far from it. Earnings for Q2, they're going to start rolling out later this month, but this chart shows our latest estimates of IaaS and PaaS for the big three cloud players. Now, I got to caution you, as I did before, other than AWS, which reports very clean numbers each quarter on IaaS and PaaS, we have to estimate Azure and GCP revenue because they bundle in other things. I'll give an example. Google reports its overall cloud numbers which include G Suite. Microsoft reports a category they call intelligent cloud. Now that includes public, private clouds, hybrid, sequel server, Windows server, system center, GitHub, enterprise support and consulting services. And Azure, the IaaS and PaaS numbers are also in there too. So what we have to do is to squint through the earnings reports and the 10 Ks and try to get a clean IaaS and PaaS figure for these players, and that's what we show here. Now there's really two points that we want to stress with this data. First, on a trailing 12 month basis, the big three cloud players now account for nearly 60 billion dollars in IaaS and PaaS revenue. And this 60 billion dollars, on a weighted average basis, is growing in the mid 40% range. So well on its way to being a 100 billion dollar business. Just for these three firms. And as we've reported, that's eating directly into the on-premises infrastructure install base, which is a flat to declining market. And that trend is going to play out in a big way this decade. We've predicted that public cloud is going to out pace on-prem infrastructure by more that 1800 basis points over the next 10 years, from a spending standpoint. Now the second point that I want to make relates to Google IaaS and PaaS growth. We peg it at greater than 70%, based on public statements, reading the 10 Ks and ETR data, which we'll discuss in a moment. So, very healthy growth, but from a much smaller install base than, or base than AWS and Azure. But in our view it's not enough, because AWS and Azure are so large and strong still, growth wise, that we feel Google is going to remain a distant third, really indefinitely. Nonetheless, a lot of companies would be thrilled to have a four billion dollar cloud business and there's certainly good news in the data for Google. So let's look at some of that survey data. Now, as we've reported in the past, Google pushes G Suite very hard, as part of its cloud story, and it leads often times with G Suite in its messaging. You know, but to us that's never really been that compelling. So let me start with some anecdotal data from ETR. ETR runs a regular program, they call it VENN, and in the VENN they invite clients into a private session to listen to named CIOs talk about their experience with vendors and overall spending intentions. It's a facilitated session. And we've had ETR's Eric Bradley on as a guest who directs the VENN program, and does much of the facilitation, and here's a statement from a recent VENN session quoting a CIO at a midsize Telco, that I think sums it up nicely. He says Google's G Suite is fine and dandy, but I don't see that truly as an enterprise solution. And frankly, it's still not of the quality of an Office application, talking about Microsoft. All in all I really like the infrastructure-as-a-service and the platform-as-a-service components that GCP had. And I thought they were coming along very very well in that space. Now, the reason that I share this is because the IT buyers that we speak with, you know they're very serious about exploring Google. They want options other than Azure and AWS and they see Google as having great tech and as a viable alternative. So let's talk about GCP and the enterprise. We looking, when we look into the ETR data for the most recent survey, which ran in June and early July, GCP is showing strength in one really important bellwether category, the giant public and private companies. These are the largest firms in the ETR dataset and often point to secular trends. Now, before we get into that, let's look at the picture for GCP using ETR's net score up methodology. This is fundamental to the ETR approach, and remember, each quarter ETR goes out and asks its respondents, are you planning to spend more or less? In its July survey, ETR focuses on second half spending. The next chart captures results across Google's entire portfolio. So here's the breakdown for, for Google across all sectors. 14% of the respondents are adopting new, that's the lime green. 39% plan to increase spending in the second half versus the first half, that's the forest green. Then there's a big fat middle, that's flat, and you see that in the gray area. And the 7% are spending less, with 2% replacing, that's the pinkish and dark red, respectively. So, I would say this result is mixed, in my opinion. Yeah, it's not bad, don't get me wrong, and we've, we'll see once ETR comes out of its quite period, how this compares to Azure and AWR, so remember, I can only share limited data until ETR clients get the data and have time to act on it. But this calculates out to a net score of 44%, which is respectable, but frankly not overly inspiring. So let's look across the GCP portfolio using the ETR taxonomy and see what it looks like. This chart shows the net score comparisons across three different surveys, October 19, April 20, and July 20. So reading the bars left to right, you can see Google's strong suit really is machine learning and AI. Container platforms are also very strong, as are functions, or server-less, and databases, very solid, we'll talk more about that in a minute. You know, video conferencing was just added by ETR and sure it pops up with the work from home. Cloud is actually holding firm when compared to October of last year. But surprisingly, analytics is looking a bit softer. And ETR for the first time added G Suite with, it shows a 26% net score, first time out, which is pretty tepid. I mean not very impressive at all. But overall, the picture looks pretty good for Google. So let's dig further into the giant public and private sector, that bellwether I talked about. And let's peal the onion a bit and look closer at the results from the largest companies in the dataset. So this chart shows the giant public, plus private organizations. So it would include like monster public companies but also large companies like a Cargill or a Coke Industries, if in fact they responded in this survey. And you can see, in that all important sector, it's a story of a lot of green with hardly any red, so quite a positive sign for Google within those bellwethers. Here's what I think is happening here. Is these large, and often far flung organizations, have realized that they have multiple cloud vendors, and they're asking their senior IT leadership to bring some consistency and sanity to their cloud strategies. So they look at the big three and say, okay, what's the best strategic fit for each workload? So they might say for instance let's use AWS for core IaaS, let's use Azure for productivity workloads, and we'll sprinkle some Google in for machine learning and related projects. So we do see some real strength in some of the larger strongholds for Google, although interestingly ETR sort of tells me that there's softness in the midsize and smaller companies that have powered AWS for so many years. And of course this, with Google's base, but compare that to AWS and AWS is much stronger in those smaller companies, start-ups and the like, and of course COVID's the wild car in all this. You know, we have to take that into account, and we will with Sagar Kadakia, who's ETR's director of research in the coming weeks. But I want to look at Google in the all important database category. So before we wrap, let's look at database. You remember, Google's playing catch up in the cloud and its marketing takes a more open posture around partners and things like multi-cloud and you know you can contrast that with AWS for example, but look, make no mistake, Google wants you data in their cloud, and that's why database is so strategic and so important. Look, it's the mother of all lock specs. All you got to do is look at Oracle and their success. Now, as we've reported many times, there's a new workload emerging in the cloud around this idea of the modern data warehouse. I mean I don't even like that term anymore, data warehouse, because it sounds just so static. But anyway, any rate, I'm talking about workloads that bring database, machine learning, AI, data science, compute and storage along with visualization tools to deliver real-time insights and operational analytics. Database is at the heart of everything here. Win the database and everything else falls into place. Now, Google has six or seven database products and one of the most impressive, in my opinion, is BigQuery. I mean, for those who have followed me over the years you know I love the technology behind Google's banner, but BigQuery is where much of the action is around this new workload that I'm talking about. So, let's look at, deeper at Google's position in database. This chart shows one of my favorite views. On the Y axis is the net score, or spending momentum, and on the X axis is market share or pervasiveness in the ETR dataset. The chart plots various database companies and their position within the all important giant public plus private sector. So these are the companies in the ETR survey that are the largest, and oftentimes, again, are a bellwether. And you can see Microsoft and Oracle and AWS have very strong presence on the horizontal axis. Mongo, MongoDB looms large, MemSQL, they just raised 50 million dollars this past May, MariaDB just raised another 25 million this month. You can see Couchbase and Redis, they show up, and they're on my radar. I'm learning more about those companies. Folks, database is hot. VC's are pouring money in and it's something that's very important to the Cube community to look at. And of course you see Google in the chart, with a strong net score, you know, but not the type of market presence that you see from the other big cloud players. In fact, they've pulled back a little somewhat in this last ETR survey. So despite some bright spots in the enterprise in terms of spending momentum, just not quite enough presence yet. Oh, by the way, look who's right there with Google. I know I sound like a broken record, but Snowflake is everywhere. You'll find them in AWS, you'll find them in Azure and on GCP. Now remember, Snowflake is only about one tenth the size of Google's IaaS and PaaS business. But it has stronger spending momentum than all the big guys, and it continues to creep its way to the right in terms of market share or presence. You know, but Google has great database tech and BigQuery is at the heart of its strategy to support analytics at scale, and automate the data pipeline. BigQuery's very well designed, it started as a cloud native database, it's based on server-less, it's highly scalable, and it's very cost-effective. In fact, ESG, enterprise strategy group, wrote a report comparing the TCO of the cloud databases. Let me pull that up and show you. Now the report was commissioned by Google, so I got to caution you there. But it was very well done in my opinion by a guy named Aviv Kaufmann, and you can see here it compares BigQuery with the other cloud databases, and of course, you know, BigQuery wins, got the lowest TCO, but again I thought the report was really detailed and well researched. I have no doubt that Snowflake has an answer for the big brown bar, which is on-demand cloud cost. I think ESG was making certain assumptions, maybe worst case assumptions, about the need to over-provision resources for Snowflake, which I'm sure ESG can defend, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that Snowflake, you know, has an answer to that or a comeback. I'm going to ask them. But the point I want to make here is that BigQuery was designed from day one, again, as a cloud-native database. We've been talking about that a lot. It's very efficient and is going to be competitive. So you can see, there are some bright spots in the enterprise, for Google. Okay, let's wrap up. Now, having called out some of the positives, and there are many, Google is still not getting it done in the enterprise, in my opinion. I certainly would not say too little too late, but I would say they spotted the competition a huge lead, and the only reason is Google just didn't act on the opportunity staring them in the face, within the enterprise, fast enough, and they finally woke up. But enterprise sales are, they're really hard. Thomas Kurian, for all his experience, is coming from way, way behind with regard to the enterprise go to market, systems and processes, pricing, partnerships, special deals for the enterprise. Google's still learning how to sell the business outcomes and is relying far too much on its technology chops, which, while impressive, are not going to win the day without better enterprise sales, marketing, and ecosystem integration. Now I feel like for years, Google has said to the enterprise market, give me heat and I'll add the wood. Meaning we have the best tech, go ahead and use it. That strategy just doesn't work in the enterprise. Kurian knows it and I suspect that's why Google's showing some strength within these large, giant public and private companies. They're probably applying focused sales resources to nail customer success with some of its top accounts where they have a presence, and then once they nail that they'll broaden to the market. But they got to move fast. We'll learn more about Google's intentions and its progress over the next few, next few months as they try their online event experiment, and of course we'll be there providing our wall to wall coverage. Remember, these Breaking Analysis episodes, they're all available as podcasts. ETR is shortly exiting its quiet period, this week, and will be rolling out the data, so check out etr.plus. I publish weekly on wikibon.com and siloconeangle.com and as always please comment on my LinkedIn posts, I really appreciate the feedback. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everyone. We'll see you next time.

>> From the CUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the Cube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> A better than expected earnings report in late August got people excited about Snowflake again, but the negative sentiment in the market is weighed heavily on virtually all growth tech stocks and Snowflake is no exception. As we've stressed many times the company's management is on a long term mission to dramatically simplify the way organizations use data. Snowflake is tapping into a multi hundred billion dollar total available market and continues to grow at a rapid pace. In our view, Snowflake is embarking on its third major wave of innovation data apps, while its first and second waves are still bearing significant fruit. Now for short term traders focused on the next 90 or 180 days, that probably doesn't matter. But those taking a longer view are asking, "Should we still be optimistic about the future of this high flyer or is it just another over hyped tech play?" Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. Snowflake's Quarter just ended. And in this breaking analysis we take a look at the most recent survey data from ETR to see what clues and nuggets we can extract to predict the near term future in the long term outlook for Snowflake which is going to announce its earnings at the end of this month. Okay, so you know the story. If you've been investor in Snowflake this year, it's been painful. We said at IPO, "If you really want to own this stock on day one, just hold your nose and buy it." But like most IPOs we said there will be likely a better entry point in the future, and not surprisingly that's been the case. Snowflake IPOed a price of 120, which you couldn't touch on day one unless you got into a friends and family Delio. And if you did, you're still up 5% or so. So congratulations. But at one point last year you were up well over 200%. That's been the nature of this volatile stock, and I certainly can't help you with the timing of the market. But longer term Snowflake is targeting 10 billion in revenue for fiscal year 2028. A big number. Is it achievable? Is it big enough? Tell you what, let's come back to that. Now shorter term, our expert trader and breaking analysis contributor Chip Simonton said he got out of the stock a while ago after having taken a shot at what turned out to be a bear market rally. He pointed out that the stock had been bouncing around the 150 level for the last few months and broke that to the downside last Friday. So he'd expect 150 is where the stock is going to find resistance on the way back up, but there's no sign of support right now. He said maybe at 120, which was the July low and of course the IPO price that we just talked about. Now, perhaps earnings will be a catalyst, when Snowflake announces on November 30th, but until the mentality toward growth tech changes, nothing's likely to change dramatically according to Simonton. So now that we have that out of the way, let's take a look at the spending data for Snowflake in the ETR survey. Here's a chart that shows the time series breakdown of snowflake's net score going back to the October, 2021 survey. Now at that time, Snowflake's net score stood at a robust 77%. And remember, net score is a measure of spending velocity. It's a proprietary network, and ETR derives it from a quarterly survey of IT buyers and asks the respondents, "Are you adopting the platform new? Are you spending 6% or more? Is you're spending flat? Is you're spending down 6% or worse? Or are you leaving the platform decommissioning?" You subtract the percent of customers that are spending less or churning from those that are spending more and adopting or adopting and you get a net score. And that's expressed as a percentage of customers responding. In this chart we show Snowflake's in out of the total survey which ranges... The total survey ranges between 1,200 and 1,400 each quarter. And the very last column... Oh sorry, very last row, we show the number of Snowflake respondents that are coming in the survey from the Fortune 500 and the Global 2000. Those are two very important Snowflake constituencies. Now what this data tells us is that Snowflake exited 2021 with very strong momentum in a net score of 82%, which is off the charts and it was actually accelerating from the previous survey. Now by April that sentiment had flipped and Snowflake came down to earth with a 68% net score. Still highly elevated relative to its peers, but meaningfully down. Why was that? Because we saw a drop in new ads and an increase in flat spend. Then into the July and most recent October surveys, you saw a significant drop in the percentage of customers that were spending more. Now, notably, the percentage of customers who are contemplating adding the platform is actually staying pretty strong, but it is off a bit this past survey. And combined with a slight uptick in planned churn, net score is now down to 60%. That uptick from 0% and 1% and then 3%, it's still small, but that net score at 60% is still 20 percentage points higher than our highly elevated benchmark of 40% as you recall from listening to earlier breaking analysis. That 40% range is we consider a milestone. Anything above that is actually quite strong. But again, Snowflake is down and coming back to churn, while 3% churn is very low, in previous quarters we've seen Snowflake 0% or 1% decommissions. Now the last thing to note in this chart is the meaningful uptick in survey respondents that are citing, they're using the Snowflake platform. That's up to 212 in the survey. So look, it's hard to imagine that Snowflake doesn't feel the softening in the market like everyone else. Snowflake is guiding for around 60% growth in product revenue against the tough compare from a year ago with a 2% operating margin. So like every company, the reaction of the street is going to come down to how accurate or conservative the guide is from their CFO. Now, earlier this year, Snowflake acquired a company called Streamlit for around $800 million. Streamlit is an open source Python library and it makes it easier to build data apps with machine learning, obviously a huge trend. And like Snowflake, generally its focus is on simplifying the complex, in this case making data science easier to integrate into data apps that business people can use. So we were excited this summer in the July ETR survey to see that they added some nice data and pick on Streamlit, which we're showing here in comparison to Snowflake's core business on the left hand side. That's the data warehousing, the Streamlit pieces on the right hand side. And we show again net score over time from the previous survey for Snowflake's core database and data warehouse offering again on the left as compared to a Streamlit on the right. Snowflake's core product had 194 responses in the October, 22 survey, Streamlit had an end of 73, which is up from 52 in the July survey. So significant uptick of people responding that they're doing business in adopting Streamlit. That was pretty impressive to us. And it's hard to see, but the net scores stayed pretty constant for Streamlit at 51%. It was 52% I think in the previous quarter, well over that magic 40% mark. But when you blend it with Snowflake, it does sort of bring things down a little bit. Now there are two key points here. One is that the acquisition seems to have gained exposure right out of the gate as evidenced by the large number of responses. And two, the spending momentum. Again while it's lower than Snowflake overall, and when you blend it with Snowflake it does pull it down, it's very healthy and steady. Now let's do a little pure comparison with some of our favorite names in this space. This chart shows net score or spending velocity in the Y-axis, an overlap or presence, pervasiveness if you will, in the data set on the X-axis. That red dotted line again is that 40% highly elevated net score that we like to talk about. And that table inserted informs us as to how the companies are plotted, where the dots set up, the net score, the ins. And we're comparing a number of database players, although just a caution, Oracle includes all of Oracle including its apps. But we just put it in there for reference because it is the leader in database. Right off the bat, Snowflake jumps out with a net score of 64%. The 60% from the earlier chart, again included Streamlit. So you can see its core database, data warehouse business actually is higher than the total company average that we showed you before 'cause the Streamlit is blended in. So when you separate it out, Streamlit is right on top of data bricks. Isn't that ironic? Only Snowflake and Databricks in this selection of names are above the 40% level. You see Mongo and Couchbase, they know they're solid and Teradata cloud actually showing pretty well compared to some of the earlier survey results. Now let's isolate on the database data platform sector and see how that shapes up. And for this analysis, same XY dimensions, we've added the big giants, AWS and Microsoft and Google. And notice that those three plus Snowflake are just at or above the 40% line. Snowflake continues to lead by a significant margin in spending momentum and it keeps creeping to the right. That's that end that we talked about earlier. Now here's an interesting tidbit. Snowflake is often asked, and I've asked them myself many times, "How are you faring relative to AWS, Microsoft and Google, these big whales with Redshift and Synapse and Big Query?" And Snowflake has been telling folks that 80% of its business comes from AWS. And when Microsoft heard that, they said, "Whoa, wait a minute, Snowflake, let's partner up." 'Cause Microsoft is smart, and they understand that the market is enormous. And if they could do better with Snowflake, one, they may steal some business from AWS. And two, even if Snowflake is winning against some of the Microsoft database products, if it wins on Azure, Microsoft is going to sell more compute and more storage, more AI tools, more other stuff to these customers. Now AWS is really aggressive from a partnering standpoint with Snowflake. They're openly negotiating, not openly, but they're negotiating better prices. They're realizing that when it comes to data, the cheaper that you make the offering, the more people are going to consume. At scale economies and operating leverage are really powerful things at volume that kick in. Now Microsoft, they're coming along, they obviously get it, but Google is seemingly resistant to that type of go to market partnership. Rather than lean into Snowflake as a great partner Google's field force is kind of fighting fashion. Google itself at Cloud next heavily messaged what they call the open data cloud, which is a direct rip off of Snowflake. So what can we say about Google? They continue to be kind of behind the curve when it comes to go to market. Now just a brief aside on the competitive posture. I've seen Slootman, Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake in action with his prior companies and how he depositioned the competition. At Data Domain, he eviscerated a company called Avamar with their, what he called their expensive and slow post process architecture. I think he actually called it garbage, if I recall at one conference I heard him speak at. And that sort of destroyed BMC when he was at ServiceNow, kind of positioning them as the equivalent of the department of motor vehicles. And so it's interesting to hear how Snowflake openly talks about the data platforms of AWS, Microsoft, Google, and data bricks. I'll give you this sort of short bumper sticker. Redshift is just an on-prem database that AWS morphed to the cloud, which by the way is kind of true. They actually did a brilliant job of it, but it's basically a fact. Microsoft Excel, a collection of legacy databases, which also kind of morphed to run in the cloud. And even Big Query, which is considered cloud native by many if not most, is being positioned by Snowflake as originally an on-prem database to support Google's ad business, maybe. And data bricks is for those people smart enough to get it to Berkeley that love complexity. And now Snowflake doesn't, they don't mention Berkeley as far as I know. That's my addition. But you get the point. And the interesting thing about Databricks and Snowflake is a while ago in the cube I said that there was a new workload type emerging around data where you have AWS cloud, Snowflake obviously for the cloud database and Databricks data for the data science and EML, you bring those things together and there's this new workload emerging that's going to be very powerful in the future. And it's interesting to see now the aspirations of all three of these platforms are colliding. That's quite a dynamic, especially when you see both Snowflake and Databricks putting venture money and getting their hooks into the loyalties of the same companies like DBT labs and Calibra. Anyway, Snowflake's posture is that we are the pioneer in cloud native data warehouse, data sharing and now data apps. And our platform is designed for business people that want simplicity. The other guys, yes, they're formidable, but we Snowflake have an architectural lead and of course we run in multiple clouds. So it's pretty strong positioning or depositioning, you have to admit. Now I'm not sure I agree with the big query knockoffs completely. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but snowflake, as we see in the ETR survey data is winning. So in thinking about the longer term future, let's talk about what's different with Snowflake, where it's headed and what the opportunities are for the company. Snowflake put itself on the map by focusing on simplifying data analytics. What's interesting about that is the company's founders are as you probably know from Oracle. And rather than focusing on transactional data, which is Oracle's sweet spot, the stuff they worked on when they were at Oracle, the founder said, "We're going to go somewhere else. We're going to attack the data warehousing problem and the data analytics problem." And they completely re-imagined the database and how it could be applied to solve those challenges and reimagine what was possible if you had virtually unlimited compute and storage capacity. And of course Snowflake became famous for separating the compute from storage and being able to completely shut down compute so you didn't have to pay for it when you're not using it. And the ability to have multiple clusters hit the same data without making endless copies and a consumption/cloud pricing model. And then of course everyone on the planet realized, "Wow, that's a pretty good idea." Every venture capitalist in Silicon Valley has been funding companies to copy that move. And that today has pretty much become mainstream in table stakes. But I would argue that Snowflake not only had the lead, but when you look at how others are approaching this problem, it's not necessarily as clean and as elegant. Some of the startups, the early startups I think get it and maybe had an advantage of starting later, which can be a disadvantage too. But AWS is a good example of what I'm saying here. Is its version of separating compute from storage was an afterthought and it's good, it's... Given what they had it was actually quite clever and customers like it, but it's more of a, "Okay, we're going to tier to storage to lower cost, we're going to sort of dial down the compute not completely, we're not going to shut it off, we're going to minimize the compute required." It's really not true as separation is like for instance Snowflake has. But having said that, we're talking about competitors with lots of resources and cohort offerings. And so I don't want to make this necessarily all about the product, but all things being equal architecture matters, okay? So that's the cloud S-curve, the first one we're showing. Snowflake's still on that S-curve, and in and of itself it's got legs, but it's not what's going to power the company to 10 billion. The next S-curve we denote is the multi-cloud in the middle. And now while 80% of Snowflake's revenue is AWS, Microsoft is ramping up and Google, well, we'll see. But the interesting part of that curve is data sharing, and this idea of data clean rooms. I mean it really should be called the data sharing curve, but I have my reasons for calling it multi-cloud. And this is all about network effects and data gravity, and you're seeing this play out today, especially in industries like financial services and healthcare and government that are highly regulated verticals where folks are super paranoid about compliance. There not going to share data if they're going to get sued for it, if they're going to be in the front page of the Wall Street Journal for some kind of privacy breach. And what Snowflake has done is said, "Put all the data in our cloud." Now, of course now that triggers a lot of people because it's a walled garden, okay? It is. That's the trade off. It's not the Wild West, it's not Windows, it's Mac, it's more controlled. But the idea is that as different parts of the organization or even partners begin to share data that they need, it's got to be governed, it's got to be secure, it's got to be compliant, it's got to be trusted. So Snowflake introduced the idea of, they call these things stable edges. I think that's the term that they use. And they track a metric around stable edges. And so a stable edge, or think of it as a persistent edge is an ongoing relationship between two parties that last for some period of time, more than a month. It's not just a one shot deal, one a done type of, "Oh guys shared it for a day, done." It sent you an FTP, it's done. No, it's got to have trajectory over time. Four weeks or six weeks or some period of time that's meaningful. And that metric is growing. Now I think sort of a different metric that they track. I think around 20% of Snowflake customers are actively sharing data today and then they track the number of those edge relationships that exist. So that's something that's unique. Because again, most data sharing is all about making copies of data. That's great for storage companies, it's bad for auditors, and it's bad for compliance officers. And that trend is just starting out, that middle S-curve, it's going to kind of hit the base of that steep part of the S-curve and it's going to have legs through this decade we think. And then finally the third wave that we show here is what we call super cloud. That's why I called it multi-cloud before, so it could invoke super cloud. The idea that you've built a PAS layer that is purpose built for a specific objective, and in this case it's building data apps that are cloud native, shareable and governed. And is a long-term trend that's going to take some time to develop. I mean, application development platforms can take five to 10 years to mature and gain significant adoption, but this one's unique. This is a critical play for Snowflake. If it's going to compete with the big cloud players, it has to have an app development framework like Snowpark. It has to accommodate new data types like transactional data. That's why it announced this thing called UniStore last June, Snowflake a summit. And the pattern that's forming here is Snowflake is building layer upon layer with its architecture at the core. It's not currently anyway, it's not going out and saying, "All right, we're going to buy a company that's got to another billion dollars in revenue and that's how we're going to get to 10 billion." So it's not buying its way into new markets through revenue. It's actually buying smaller companies that can complement Snowflake and that it can turn into revenue for growth that fit in to the data cloud. Now as to the 10 billion by fiscal year 28, is that achievable? That's the question. Yeah, I think so. Would the momentum resources go to market product and management prowess that Snowflake has? Yes, it's definitely achievable. And one could argue to $10 billion is too conservative. Indeed, Snowflake CFO, Mike Scarpelli will fully admit his forecaster built on existing offerings. He's not including revenue as I understand it from all the new stuff that's in the pipeline because he doesn't know what it's going to look like. He doesn't know what the adoption is going to look like. He doesn't have data on that adoption, not just yet anyway. And now of course things can change quite dramatically. It's possible that is forecast for existing businesses don't materialize or competition picks them off or a company like Databricks actually is able in the longer term replicate the functionality of Snowflake with open source technologies, which would be a very competitive source of innovation. But in our view, there's plenty of room for growth, the market is enormous and the real key is, can and will Snowflake deliver on the promises of simplifying data? Of course we've heard this before from data warehouse, the data mars and data legs and master data management and ETLs and data movers and data copiers and Hadoop and a raft of technologies that have not lived up to expectations. And we've also, by the way, seen some tremendous successes in the software business with the likes of ServiceNow and Salesforce. So will Snowflake be the next great software name and hit that 10 billion magic mark? I think so. Let's reconnect in 2028 and see. Okay, we'll leave it there today. I want to thank Chip Simonton for his input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our Editor in Chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Check it out for all the news. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch David.vallante@siliconangle.com. DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. And please do check out etr.ai, they've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey guys and girls. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Coupa Inspire 2022, from the Cosmopolitan, in bustling Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here, and as I mentioned, day two of our coverage and fresh from the main stage, Raja Hammoud joins me, the Executive Vice President of products at Coupa. Raja, welcome back to theCUBE and happy 10th anniversary at Coupa. >> Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, and welcome back to Inspire. >> Thank you. It's so great- >> We're so happy you're here. >> It's great to be here. So you're just about coming up on your 10 anniversary with Coupa. You showed some great photos of your time there but you've seen, you've lived the evolution that is this rocket ship that's Coupa. >> Raja: It's been incredible journey. I really couldn't believe at first it's been 10. This is the longest I've ever been anywhere. And I honestly feel more refreshed and excited than even when I joined back in the day 10 years ago. And so much has changed, but also so much has not. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> The size of course. We were like 60 people when I joined, the product development team was one person in, in a product, roughly 12 engineers, and fast forward to the scale that's today, it's phenomenal difference. But what has not changed is the, the core values, how, the hustle, how people love working with each other, how we support customers, how we keep stepping up our game how we believe none of us is as smart as all of us, and the community keeps getting stronger and stronger. It's been, it's been really exciting journey. >> The theme of none of us is as smarter as all of us, I'm not sure if I got that right, but the idea is you feel that when you're talking to Coupa partners, I've had the opportunity to talk with Coupa partners and customers and Coupa folks that, that is not just a value statement, people are living that. >> Raja: Yeah. It's, it's everywhere. In the, in the company walls, outside the company walls, you often see product people in different organizations where, they start living in an ivory tower, they think they know everything, I mean, back to what we were discussing earlier about Barbara, when she talked about, get out of your doors, right? A lot of people can tend to do that. We always, from the beginning, believed in the best ideas are out there and you collaborate with each other. And I truly, truly believe that the success that we have achieved today to our community is in a large, large part, because we believed in that. So like on Monday, we hosted, I can't keep track of the number now, so, so many in-parallel Community Advisory Board meetings, and just talking to the products managers and everybody is buzzing with new ideas. And when we go back, there's so much new innovation that has just been co-created here in this conference, and this keeps going on and on and on. >> Lisa: Yeah. I like how you call it, the Community Advisory Board. I'm still used to hearing CAB as Customer Advisory Board, but what Coupa has built, especially with the launch of the Moonshot, the, the community AI, is, is just that. >> Yes. >> It's a very collaborative community. One of the things that's around here, hashtags everywhere, but #United by the Power of Spend. >> Yes. >> What does that mean to you as the EVP of products, and what do you think that means to the community? >> When I think... What we are doing, we're building this platform that is powering all these businesses out there. And the reality of it is you can only, only do so much when you try to do things alone. When we are doing things together, we are way more successful, we are more profitable, we are more sustainable, we are more efficient. And community.ai from a technology standpoint, is making that happen, because what we are doing is taking AI, applying it to all this 3.3 trillion in data, and then bringing back prescriptions that we give back to each and every customer so that everybody can see where they are, how they up their games, and we connect them with other people like them. Now, people love coming to conferences like this, but even in conferences like this, if you think about it, the people you're going to meet, it's, some people are going to do matchmaking but you are also losing an opportunities of meeting the maximum number of people who've done exactly the thing that you did. But when you have the ability to look at all of that data and you can match make people. So we did that already with, for sourcing professionals. So if you are somebody who source a certain category, we can tell somebody else has done something like this in this geography and we offer you to connect to each other. >> Lisa: Wow. >> So this is incredibly powerful way where we are really uniting the whole community by spend, making everybody truly stronger together. >> Lisa: Matchmaker in, in a sense. >> It is matchmaking. >> But it's, but it's- >> It's Spend matchmaking. >> Spend matchmaking, but it's also the opportunity to unite professionals across sourcing, procurement- >> Raja: Yes. >> ... finance, treasury. >> Raja: Yes. >> To your point, and, and Rob said this in his keynote, and he said it here on theCUBE, you know, we've got to break down these silos. >> Raja: Yes. >> People and companies functioning in silos are not going to be successful. >> Raja: Yes. This has been one of the, probably one of the things that we were talking earlier, what has changed, what hasn't. This is one of the fundamental things that has never changed since I've joined. The vision has been very clear. The execution on it, of how we drive successful business spend management program is by breaking down the silos and this idea of sweet synergy, where in product, you start building these capabilities that helps these professionals in the different organizations to actually connect on the touch points, where, where things really matter. >> Lisa: Sweet synergy, was that thing from a concept perspective, did that come from the community, in terms of Coupa going, this is actually what's happening, this synergy across the BSM suite? >> Yes. So in the very beginning, it was early idea. I would say in the first two Inspires that we did, we hadn't given it actually the name itself, and we used to call it unified capabilities, and it started with the first silos we broke down. The first silos we broke down were procurement and AP. And they didn't even used to talk in the same room or even want to care about each other. So we started building so many capabilities that brought these teams together and little by little the community started to feel that and see the value of that. And then the community started to ask us to go break down more silos. So in the beginning, I would say the, the vision before I even joined, the company was on that trajectory. And the early customers saw that and they championed it and then they drove us to do more. So they came to us and said could you please do what you did here in contract? Could you please do what you did here in sourcing? And I was in a meeting last week, a leadership meeting, and one question was asked to leaders in the services team about what are they hearing about, from the customers, about a particular area. And it was music to our ears when we heard the customers are asking for more synergy, right? So, they even have the name for it and they're asking for more and more, and we have built hundreds of these already, but the reality is there is so much opportunity. >> Lisa: Right. >> The world is siloed, no technology has attempted to do that. And I think that's what's a exciting is to go and forge new grounds and do something very special to unite everyone together. >> You guys talked about the waves. Rob talked about the waves yesterday. You talked about it again this morning. And when I think of Inspired community, as that third wave, I see it on both sides. I see the Inspired community that is the Coupa community, but also what you just talked about, that flywheel of that sort of symbiotic relationship that you guys have with your customers as Coupa in and of itself being in a community inspired by the community that it has built. >> Raja: Yes, it's, it's very, very, it's a circular effect. Like it, we inspire one another, and we strengthen one another, and it's, it's just a beautiful, beautiful thing. One of the special things that we are starting to do is we want to take the whole product experience itself, to be a complete community experience. So anywhere you are going to Coupa, when it makes sense, of course, you are not only looking at your data, you are getting connected with people for that particular thing. So we've done that already for 15 different product areas and we're constantly doing more and more and more and more. You can imagine one day we can, where we can start within the product pages themselves, where we host community experts to talk via video and connect with others. So you bring that whole community experience alive in a product in enterprise software, which has not been done. >> Kind of like creating your own influencer network. >> Yes, yes, yes. And give people their voice and, and, and it becomes exciting. It is very different when you're just working on your own and driving goals, and you have no idea how good that can pass on the world. And then when right then and there, you get to learn that some people have hit that, some people have achieved these goals, you just get excited, "I want to hit that goal too. Who are these people? Connect me with these leaders. Let's have a conversation. How did they do it?" And they start creating best practices together. We even have started places where they collaborate on actual documents and templates, and they put them in the community exchange as a way for people to share with others, even taking templates from the product putting them back into a community exchange. So it is sharing, being enabled on the platform, platform itself. >> Lisa: How did you guys function during the pandemic, the last two years when we couldn't get together? >> Raja: Yeah. >> I know that your customers are really the lifeblood of Coupa and vice versa. >> Raja: Yes. >> But talk to me about some of the things that Coupa did with its customers, you know, by video conferencing, for example, that really helped the evolution and some of the innovations that you announced this morning. >> When we first... when the pandemic first hit I think like we all didn't believe what, what is going on. And there was this, I would call it a beautiful period in a way, despite how horrific that was, and that period was where everyone rose to the occasion, everybody wanted to help one another. Across Coupa everywhere, we started having documents of how can step up and help our customers, help our communities. We started to look at how we get PPE, and get it in the hands of our customers. We have access to suppliers. We started looking at helping suppliers with digital payments to speed things up. So, so many things we started doing as a community to just help each other. And then as we got to the next level, then we started, of course, starting to do things over, over zoom. And the big surprise, was we were incredibly productive. If anything, we were worried about people feeling burnt out. >> Yeah. >> Because they were just in it, completely in it. And it created a lot of new avenues for us because often you go and do these meetings in person. Now you could have a user experience session with a customer very easily, they're available more often than they used to. >> Lisa: Right. >> So we did not miss a beat with the community. We moved into virtual caps. We had the advantage of having them recorded as well, where we could have the global development teams learn and see exactly what the, what the customers are are co-creating together. And our goal lives accelerated, because a lot of these implementations, they used to happen in person, so schedules, they actually got accelerated- >> Lisa: Right. >> ...through that. Now of course, there is nothing that matches to this. You can do it, you can do a lot, but a ton of the collaboration comes from real life dialogue and kind of conversation. So it's that balance between the two that I think will be great. >> Lisa: What are some of the things that you've heard the last few days? You mentioned the Partners Summit and, and the Community Advisory Boards on Monday, yesterday, everything kicked off today. What are some of the things that you've heard in your meetings that really inspire you on say the next 10 years at Coupa? >> Raja: By far, by far, by far, it's a validation of, that what we are doing is, we're absolutely on target with it, and that, we just can do so much more. The silos are massive and there are so so many opportunities that you hear in every different areas that we could be doing this, we could be doing this together. So we can break down more and more silos. And using community.ai is just the tip of the iceberg of what we are, what we are doing. Yes, we created tens and tens of capabilities, helping, helping the community with all of that, but data drives everything. And when you look at that, every single process in every single silo can be informed by the power of data within your own company, and then even better, data across. And, and to the point where we're talking about concepts that customers are really excited about, even thinking about this community, they're customers of each other. And when you are a customer of each other what are the different ways as a community, you can help one another more. So we're talking about community netting as new types of concepts. >> Lisa: Talk to me a little about that. You mentioned the community netting this morning but I didn't quite... Help me understand. >> Raja: It is very simple terms is if, if we are buying from each other and we have to do money movements every time I have to pay you, I have to incur fees and likewise, but since we are part of this community we can manage that relationship. So we just pay the Delta, we net it out. So it, it saves reconciliation times it saves money movement. And these are tip of the icebergs of these very cool things that we're doing together. >> Wow. That's fantastic. Last question for you, as you talk with prospects who are in the early stages, or, or still determining, do we go through like a supply chain digital transformation? I mean, I think of companies that probably haven't now or need to get on the bandwagon. >> Raja: Yeah. >> What are some of the things that you advise to those customers to be able to do what Mick Ebeling talked about this morning and that is, commit and then figure it out? >> Raja: Yes. The number one thing is just make sure you don't do the analysis paralysis. There are just so many opportunities so many opportunities start with a project, get going, and it creates incredible momentum, and then you can move on from one to another, to another, to another, instead of trying to just go for a year or two, trying to look at how the world has changed in that process. And so often you could see that projects pay for themselves within the first month of go life. You do that, you'll create another one. And it's not like you are coming in to do something so new nobody has done. Hundreds and hundreds and thousands as a matter of fact, of other community members have done that. It is proven. So get started with those and then continue. Other things I will be talking to them about is to make sure that they understand the way we work is all about partnerships spread. Often people who haven't worked with us in the enterprise software, they're used to working with vendors. We are not that. We never were that. Like the number one, if we're not going to be real partners, honest, transparent and work with each other, we don't waste each other's time. >> Lisa: Well, Raja, it's been great having you on the program. I've really enjoyed your keynote this morning. Congratulations on your 10 years at Coupa. >> Raja: Thank you. >> I'm excited to see what the next 10 years brings for you. We appreciate your insites and everything that Coupa is doing in partnership with its customers is very evident in an event like this. >> Raja: Thank you. And thank you for coming and covering us as well. We really appreciate it. >> Lisa: It's our pleasure to be here. >> Thank you. >> For Raja Hammoud, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage, day two of Coupa Inspire 2022, from Las Vegas. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back everybody to AWS reinvent. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage. My name is Dave Volante with my co-host David Nicholson. We're here all week. We got two sets, 20 plus thousand people here live at AWS reinvent. 21 of course last year was virtual. We got a hybrid event running. We had two studios running before the show running. A lot of pre-records really excited to have ninja Bardelli Walla, who is the chief product officer at data robot. Really interesting AI company. We're going to talk about insights with machine intelligence and then shout. It's great to see you again. It's been awhile. >>Great to see you as well. And I'm so happy to be on the cube. I think eight years since I first came on. >>When you launched the company that you founded back then Peck Sada on the cube, that was part >>Of the inner robot >>Family part of data, robot family. And of course, friend of the cube. Chris Lynch is the executive chairman of data robot. So a lot of connections, I always joke a hundred people in our industry, 99 seats, but tell us about data robot. What's the, what's the scoop these days. >>Thanks. Thanks very much for the opportunity to speak with both of you. Uh, I think we're seeing some very interesting trends. Uh, we've all been in the industry long enough to recognize, uh, that hype cycles they're cycles. They go in waves and, uh, the level of interest in AI has never been higher. Uh, every company in the world is looking for the opportunity to take advantage of AI, to improve their business processes, whether it's to improve their revenue it's to lower their cost profile or it's to lower their risk. What we're seeing that's most interesting is that, uh, we spend a lot of time working with companies on what we consider applied AI. That is how do we solve real business problems, uh, with the technology and not just run a bunch of experiments. You know, it's very tempting for a lot of us, Dave and David, uh, to, to do, uh, you know, spin up a spark cluster with 10,000 nodes and slosh a bunch of data through it. >>But the question we always ask at data robot is what is the business value of doing this? Why are we using these AI techniques and in order to solve what problem? So the biggest trend we see a data robot and one that we feel we're very well positioned to solve is that companies are coming out of that experimental phase. There's still a lot of experimentation going on and they're saying, okay, we, we stood up a cluster. Uh, we got a bunch of Python notebooks running around here, but we haven't really seen a return on our investment yet data robot, can you help us actually make AI real and concrete in terms of achieving a specific business outcome for us? >>Well, and I want to test something on your niche. That's something we've talked about a lot on the cube is a change in the way in which companies are architecting their data. When we first, it was like, okay, create a Hadoop cluster. And that spark came along to make that easier, but it was still this highly technical, highly centralized, hyper specialized roles where the business, people who have a really good understanding of the outcome had to kind of beg to get what they wanted because it was so technical and the success was defined as, Hey, it worked or we ran the experiment and it looks like it has promise. So now it seems like with companies like data robot, you're democratizing AI, allowing organizations to inject AI into their business processes, their applications. And it seems to be more business led. One of you could comment on that. >>I think that is a various dude observation. Uh, we launched this concept a little bit earlier this year of AI cloud. And the idea behind AI cloud is if you want to democratize AI, which is in fact has been DataRobot's vision since 2012, we were the first company on the cloud. The first AI cloud that ever existed was data robots in 2014. And the entire idea was that we knew that data scientists would always play a very important role in an organization, but yet the demand for AI would vastly outstrip the supply. And so in order to solve that challenge, we built AI cloud. We've actually spent over a million engineering hours in building this technology over the, over the last decade and put this together in a way where all of the different personas and the organizations, you have people who create AI applications. >>Those are the folks we usually think about, but those are the data scientists. Those are the analysts, those are the data engineers, but then you actually have to put it into production. You've got to run the system. So you also have to democratize this capability for the folks who are going to operate the system for the folks in risk and compliance. We're actually going to, uh, ensure that the system is operating in accordance with your policies and compliance regimes. And then the third wave of democratization, which we've just embarked on is then how do you bring AI into the hands of the actual business people? How do you put on a mobile device or a web browser, or in context, in an application with the decision, the ability for AI to drive a decision in your organization, which leads to an action, which helps drive you towards the outcome you're trying to optimize for. >>So AI cloud is about this pervasive tapestry, bringing together the creators, the consumers, the individuals who operate these systems into a single system that can lower the barrier to entry for people who don't have the skills, but allow you to plug in and go deep underneath the covers and modify whatever you need to, if you have that level of technical skill and that ability for us to kind of slide, slide the slider in one direction or the other, I could slide it to the right and say, I want all automation, something data robot has pioneered and is absolutely the leader in, but we can also, especially in these last couple of years, say, I want to be able to use as much code as I want to bring in. And the beauty of the model is that customers can choose how much they want to let the machine drive or how much they want to let the human being drive. David. I love that, >>That idea of a slider, because now you're talking about generalists getting access to really powerful tools. >>Yeah, no, exactly. And I, I'm curious, what's your view on where we are culturally with AI at this point? And what I mean by culturally is the idea that, okay, that's great. You put powerful tools in the hands of business users. Um, do most of us still need to have a lot of visibility under the covers to understand the inner workings so that we trust what we're being told? You know, I'm fine pulling a lever and having a little biscuit come out of SWOT as long as I've gotten a tour of the kitchen at some point in time. Yes. I mean, where are we with that? Where where's the level of >>Absolutely fantastic question and it's one that's, it's actually pervasive to the way data robot operates. So trust gets, uh, engendered by multiple different capabilities that you build throughout the platform. The first one is around, uh, explainability. So when you get a prediction from a system, just like you mentioned, you know, if, if the stakes are not very high, you know, you, uh, we're here in Las Vegas, of course I'm thinking of slot machines. If you get a biscuit at the end of it and it tastes pretty good. Hey, great. Right? When you're making a mission critical business decision, you don't want to be in the position where you don't understand why the system is making the decision. It does. So we have historically invested an enormous amount of effort in explainability tools, having the system actually at a prediction level, explain to you, why is it making the recommendation it's making? >>For example, the system says this customer has a high likelihood of churn. Why? Because their account balance has been declining over the last five months. Uh, number two, because their credit score has been going down. And what gives you the trust is actually the machine and the human able to communicate in the same language and same vernacular about the business value. So that's one part of it. The second part is about transparency, right? So one of the things that the automated machine learning movement, that data robot pioneered, uh, has been, I'd say rightfully criticized for frankly, is that it's too much of a black box. It's too much magic. I load my dataset. I press the start button and data robot does everything else for me. Well, that's not very satisfying when you have a 10 or a hundred million dollar decision coming on the other side, even if the technology is actually doing the job correctly, which data robot usually does. >>So where we've morphed and evolved our position in the market and where I have driven our technology portfolio at data robot is to say, you know what? There is a very important aspect of trust that needs to be brought to bear here, which is that if somebody wants to see code, let them see code. And in fact, the beauty of AI cloud is that on the same platform, the people who don't like code, but are, are very good at understanding the business domain con uh, the business domain knowledge and the context. They now have the ability to do that. But when they're at the stage before they're going to deploy anything to production. Now you can raise your hand at data robot and actually use our workflow and say, I need a coder to review this. I want the professional data scientist who has all this knowledge who understands and has read up on the latest advances in hyper parameter tuning to look at the model and tell me that this is going to be okay. And so we allow both the less technical folks and the very deep technical data scientists, the ability to collaborate on the same environment, which allows you to build trust in terms of the human side of, Hey, I don't want to just let anybody throw a model into production. I like, >>I mean, I see those, the transparency and the explainability is almost two sides of the same coin, right? Because you know, if you're gonna be accused of gender bias, you can say, no, here's how the system may, it's not like, you know, you think about the internet. It tells you it's a cat, but you don't really know how the machine determined that you're breaking apart, blowing away that black box. And the other thing I like what you said was you have data producers and data consumers, and you also talked about context because a lot of times the data producers, they don't necessarily care about the context or the PI data pipeline. People necessarily care about the context. So, okay. So now we're at the point where you're democratizing data, you're doing some great work. What are some of the blockers that you see today that you're obliterating with data robot? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Sure. >>So, so I think, uh, you know, one very important concept is that, uh, in a democracy, we talked about democratization. You still have rules, you still have governance. It's not a free for all the free for all version of that is called NRG. That's not what any company wants, right? So we have to blend the freedom and flexibility that we want businesses to have with the compliance and regulatory observability that we need in order to be successful. So what we're seeing in, in our, in our customer base and what companies are coming to data robot to discuss is, okay, we've tried these experiments. Now we want to actually get to real business value. And one of the things that's really unique about data robot is that we have put, uh, we have, we've worked in our system on over 1 million projects, training models, inside data robot. >>We have seen every type of use case across different industries, whether it's healthcare or manufacturing, uh, or, or retail, uh, we have the ability to understand those different data sets and actually to come up with models. So we have that breadth of information there if you aggregate that over time, right? So again, we did not come to AI. This is not a fad for us. We didn't start as one kind of company than slap the AI label on and say, Hey, we're an AI company now, right? We have been AI native since day one. And in that process, what we have found is working on these, this million plus projects on these data sets across these industries, we have a very good sense of which projects will actually deliver value and which don't. And that gets to a previous point that you were making, which is that you have to know and partner with an organization who it's not just about the technology. So we have fantastic people who we call our customer facing data scientists who will tell the customer, look, I know you think this is a really high value use case, but we've tried it at other customers. And unfortunately it didn't work very well. Let's steer you, cause you need with a, with a technology that is largely at the early stage and the maturity that organizations have with it, you need to help them in order to deliver success. And no vendor has delivered more successful production deployment of AI than data road. >>No, don't go down that path. It's a dead end as a cul-de-sac. So just avoid it. So we talked about transparency, explainability governance. Can you get that to the point where it's self-serve as you, as you put data in the hands of business, people where the context lives, the domain experts, can you get to self-serve and federate that governance? Yes. >>So you can, uh, that's one of the key principles of what we, what we do at data robot. And it comes back to a concept that I learned, uh, you, you both will remember. We were in the Sarbanes-Oxley crazy world of, I dunno, was that 15 years of saved data warehousing. >>Everybody wanted to talk about socks. You know, my wife would hear me on the phone. She'd be like, what is your sudden obsession with socks? I'm like, no, no, it's not what you fit. And so, um, but what came from Sarbanes Oxley are, are these, uh, longstanding principles around the segregation of duties and segregation of responsibilities. You can have democracy democratization with governance, if you have the right segregation of duties. So for example, I have somebody who can generate lots of different models, right? But I don't allow them to, to, uh, in a self-service way, just deploy into production. I actually have a workflow system which will go through multiple rigorous approvals and say, these three people have signed off, they've done an audit, uh, an, an audit assessment of this model. It's good to go, let's go and drop it into production. So the way that you get to self-service with governance is to have the right controls and policies and frameworks that surround the self-service model with the right checks and balances that implement the segregation of duties I'm talking >>And you get that right. And then you can automate it and then you can really scale, right? You gotta have your back because it's such a great topic. We, we barely scratched the surface. It was great to see you again, congratulations on all the success. And, uh, as I say any time, let's do this again. Fantastic. Thank >>You so much. All right, you're welcome. And thank you for watching you watching the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2021, Dave Volante for David Nicholson. Keep it right there. You're watching the cube, the leader in high-tech coverage.

>>Hello and welcome today's cube presentation of eight of us startup showcase. I'm john for your host highlighting the hottest companies and devops data analytics and cloud management lisa martin and David want are here to kick it off. We've got a great program for you again. This is our, our new community event model where we're doing every quarter, we have every new episode, this is quarter three this year or episode three, season one of the hottest cloud startups and we're gonna be featured. Then we're gonna do a keynote package and then 15 countries will present their story, Go check them out and then have a closing keynote with a practitioner and we've got some great lineups, lisa Dave, great to see you. Thanks for joining me. >>Hey guys, >>great to be here. So David got to ask you, you know, back in events last night we're at the 14 it's event where they had the golf PGA championship with the cube Now we got the hybrid model, This is the new normal. We're in, we got these great companies were showcasing them. What's your take? >>Well, you're right. I mean, I think there's a combination of things. We're seeing some live shows. We saw what we did with at mobile world Congress. We did the show with AWS storage day where it was, we were at the spheres, there was no, there was a live audience, but they weren't there physically. It was just virtual and yeah, so, and I just got pained about reinvent. Hey Dave, you gotta make your flights. So I'm making my flights >>were gonna be at the amazon web services, public sector summit next week. At least a lot, a lot of cloud convergence going on here. We got many companies being featured here that we spoke with the Ceo and their top people cloud management, devops data, nelson security. Really cutting edge companies, >>yes, cutting edge companies who are all focused on acceleration. We've talked about the acceleration of digital transformation the last 18 months and we've seen a tremendous amount of acceleration in innovation with what these startups are doing. We've talked to like you said, there's, there's C suite, we've also talked to their customers about how they are innovating so quickly with this hybrid environment, this remote work and we've talked a lot about security in the last week or so. You mentioned that we were at Fortinet cybersecurity skills gap. What some of these companies are doing with automation for example, to help shorten that gap, which is a big opportunity >>for the job market. Great stuff. Dave so the format of this event, you're going to have a fireside chat with the practitioner, we'd like to end these programs with a great experienced practitioner cutting edge in data february. The beginning lisa are gonna be kicking off with of course Jeff bar to give us the update on what's going on AWS and then a special presentation from Emily Freeman who is the author of devops for dummies, she's introducing new content. The revolution in devops devops two point oh and of course jerry Chen from Greylock cube alumni is going to come on and talk about his new thesis castles in the cloud creating moats at cloud scale. We've got a great lineup of people and so the front ends can be great. Dave give us a little preview of what people can expect at the end of the fireside chat. >>Well at the highest level john I've always said we're entering that sort of third great wave of cloud. First wave was experimentation. The second big wave was migration. The third wave of integration, Deep business integration and what you're >>going to hear from >>Hello Fresh today is how they like many companies that started early last decade. They started with an on prem Hadoop system and then of course we all know what happened is S three essentially took the knees out from, from the on prem Hadoop market lowered costs, brought things into the cloud and what Hello Fresh is doing is they're transforming from that legacy Hadoop system into its running on AWS but into a data mess, you know, it's a passionate topic of mine. Hello Fresh was scaling they realized that they couldn't keep up so they had to rethink their entire data architecture and they built it around data mesh Clements key and christoph Soewandi gonna explain how they actually did that are on a journey or decentralized data >>measure it and your posts have been awesome on data measure. We get a lot of traction. Certainly you're breaking analysis for the folks watching check out David Landes, Breaking analysis every week, highlighting the cutting edge trends in tech Dave. We're gonna see you later, lisa and I are gonna be here in the morning talking about with Emily. We got Jeff Barr teed up. Dave. Thanks for coming on. Looking forward to fireside chat lisa. We'll see you when Emily comes back on. But we're gonna go to Jeff bar right now for Dave and I are gonna interview Jeff. Mm >>Hey Jeff, >>here he is. Hey, how are you? How's it going really well. So I gotta ask you, the reinvent is on, everyone wants to know that's happening right. We're good with Reinvent. >>Reinvent is happening. I've got my hotel and actually listening today, if I just remembered, I still need to actually book my flights. I've got my to do list on my desk and I do need to get my >>flights. Uh, >>really looking forward >>to it. I can't wait to see the all the announcements and blog posts. We're gonna, we're gonna hear from jerry Chen later. I love the after on our next event. Get your reaction to this castle and castles in the cloud where competitive advantages can be built in the cloud. We're seeing examples of that. But first I gotta ask you give us an update of what's going on. The ap and ecosystem has been an incredible uh, celebration these past couple weeks, >>so, so a lot of different things happening and the interesting thing to me is that as part of my job, I often think that I'm effectively living in the future because I get to see all this really cool stuff that we're building just a little bit before our customers get to, and so I'm always thinking okay, here I am now, and what's the world going to be like in a couple of weeks to a month or two when these launches? I'm working on actually get out the door and that, that's always really, really fun, just kind of getting that, that little edge into where we're going, but this year was a little interesting because we had to really significant birthdays, we had the 15 year anniversary of both EC two and S three and we're so focused on innovating and moving forward, that it's actually pretty rare for us at Aws to look back and say, wow, we've actually done all these amazing things in in the last 15 years, >>you know, it's kind of cool Jeff, if I may is is, you know, of course in the early days everybody said, well, a place for startup is a W. S and now the great thing about the startup showcases, we're seeing the startups that >>are >>very near, or some of them have even reached escape velocity, so they're not, they're not tiny little companies anymore, they're in their transforming their respective industries, >>they really are and I think that as they start ups grow, they really start to lean into the power of the cloud. They as they start to think, okay, we've we've got our basic infrastructure in place, we've got, we were serving data, we're serving up a few customers, everything is actually working pretty well for us. We've got our fundamental model proven out now, we can invest in publicity and marketing and scaling and but they don't have to think about what's happening behind the scenes. They just if they've got their auto scaling or if they're survivalists, the infrastructure simply grows to meet their demand and it's it's just a lot less things that they have to worry about. They can focus on the fun part of their business which is actually listening to customers and building up an awesome business >>Jeff as you guys are putting together all the big pre reinvented, knows a lot of stuff that goes on prior as well and they say all the big good stuff to reinvent. But you start to see some themes emerged this year. One of them is modernization of applications, the speed of application development in the cloud with the cloud scale devops personas, whatever persona you want to talk about but basically speed the speed of of the app developers where other departments have been slowing things down, I won't say name names, but security group and I t I mean I shouldn't have said that but only kidding but no but seriously people want in minutes and seconds now not days or weeks. You know whether it's policy. What are some of the trends that you're seeing around this this year as we get into some of the new stuff coming out >>So Dave customers really do want speed and for we've actually encapsulate this for a long time in amazon in what we call the bias for action leadership principle >>where >>we just need to jump in and move forward and and make things happen. A lot of customers look at that and they say yes this is great. We need to have the same bias fraction. Some do. Some are still trying to figure out exactly how to put it into play. And they absolutely for sure need to pay attention to security. They need to respect the past and make sure that whatever they're doing is in line with I. T. But they do want to move forward. And the interesting thing that I see time and time again is it's not simply about let's adopt a new technology. It's how do we >>how do we keep our workforce >>engaged? How do we make sure that they've got the right training? How do we bring our our I. T. Team along for this. Hopefully new and fun and exciting journey where they get to learn some interesting new technologies they've got all this very much accumulated business knowledge they still want to put to use, maybe they're a little bit apprehensive about something brand new and they hear about the cloud, but there by and large, they really want to move forward. They just need a little bit of >>help to make it happen >>real good guys. One of the things you're gonna hear today, we're talking about speed traditionally going fast. Oftentimes you meant you have to sacrifice some things on quality and what you're going to hear from some of the startups today is how they're addressing that to automation and modern devoPS technologies and sort of rethinking that whole application development approach. That's something I'm really excited to see organization is beginning to adopt so they don't have to make that tradeoff anymore. >>Yeah, I would >>never want to see someone >>sacrifice quality, >>but I do think that iterating very quickly and using the best of devoPS principles to be able to iterate incredibly quickly and get that first launch out there and then listen with both ears just >>as much >>as you can, Everything. You hear iterate really quickly to meet those needs in, in hours and days, not months, quarters or years. >>Great stuff. Chef and a lot of the companies were featuring here in the startup showcase represent that new kind of thinking, um, systems thinking as well as you know, the cloud scale and again and it's finally here, the revolution of deVOps is going to the next generation and uh, we're excited to have Emily Freeman who's going to come on and give a little preview for her new talk on this revolution. So Jeff, thank you for coming on, appreciate you sharing the update here on the cube. Happy >>to be. I'm actually really looking forward to hearing from Emily. >>Yeah, it's great. Great. Looking forward to the talk. Brand new Premier, Okay, uh, lisa martin, Emily Freeman is here. She's ready to come in and we're going to preview her lightning talk Emily. Um, thanks for coming on, we really appreciate you coming on really, this is about to talk around deVOPS next gen and I think lisa this is one of those things we've been, we've been discussing with all the companies. It's a new kind of thinking it's a revolution, it's a systems mindset, you're starting to see the connections there she is. Emily, Thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Thank you for having me. So your teaser video >>was amazing. Um, you know, that little secret radical idea, something completely different. Um, you gotta talk coming up, what's the premise behind this revolution, you know, these tying together architecture, development, automation deployment, operating altogether. >>Yes, well, we have traditionally always used the sclc, which is the software delivery life cycle. Um, and it is a straight linear process that has actually been around since the sixties, which is wild to me um, and really originated in manufacturing. Um, and as much as I love the Toyota production system and how much it has shown up in devops as a sort of inspiration on how to run things better. We are not making cars, we are making software and I think we have to use different approaches and create a sort of model that better reflects our modern software development process. >>It's a bold idea and looking forward to the talk and as motivation. I went into my basement and dusted off all my books from college in the 80s and the sea estimates it was waterfall. It was software development life cycle. They trained us to think this way and it came from the mainframe people. It was like, it's old school, like really, really old and it really hasn't been updated. Where's the motivation? I actually cloud is kind of converging everything together. We see that, but you kind of hit on this persona thing. Where did that come from this persona? Because you know, people want to put people in buckets release engineer. I mean, where's that motivation coming from? >>Yes, you're absolutely right that it came from the mainframes. I think, you know, waterfall is necessary when you're using a punch card or mag tape to load things onto a mainframe, but we don't exist in that world anymore. Thank goodness. And um, yes, so we, we use personas all the time in tech, you know, even to register, well not actually to register for this event, but a lot events. A lot of events, you have to click that drop down. Right. Are you a developer? Are you a manager, whatever? And the thing is personas are immutable in my opinion. I was a developer. I will always identify as a developer despite playing a lot of different roles and doing a lot of different jobs. Uh, and this can vary throughout the day. Right. You might have someone who has a title of software architect who ends up helping someone pair program or develop or test or deploy. Um, and so we wear a lot of hats day to day and I think our discussions around roles would be a better, um, certainly a better approach than personas >>lease. And I've been discussing with many of these companies around the roles and we're hearing from them directly and they're finding out that people have, they're mixing and matching on teams. So you're, you're an S R E on one team and you're doing something on another team where the workflows and the workloads defined the team formation. So this is a cultural discussion. >>It absolutely is. Yes. I think it is a cultural discussion and it really comes to the heart of devops, right? It's people process. And then tools deVOps has always been about culture and making sure that developers have all the tools they need to be productive and honestly happy. What good is all of this? If developing software isn't a joyful experience. Well, >>I got to ask you, I got you here obviously with server list and functions just starting to see this kind of this next gen. And we're gonna hear from jerry Chen, who's a Greylock VC who's going to talk about castles in the clouds, where he's discussing the moats that could be created with a competitive advantage in cloud scale. And I think he points to the snowflakes of the world. You're starting to see this new thing happening. This is devops 2.0, this is the revolution. Is this kind of where you see the same vision of your talk? >>Yes, so DeVOps created 2000 and 8, 2000 and nine, totally different ecosystem in the world we were living in, you know, we didn't have things like surveillance and containers, we didn't have this sort of default distributed nature, certainly not the cloud. Uh and so I'm very excited for jerry's talk. I'm curious to hear more about these moz. I think it's fascinating. Um but yeah, you're seeing different companies use different tools and processes to accelerate their delivery and that is the competitive advantage. How can we figure out how to utilize these tools in the most efficient way possible. >>Thank you for coming and giving us a preview. Let's now go to your lightning keynote talk. Fresh content. Premier of this revolution in Devops and the Freemans Talk, we'll go there now. >>Hi, I'm Emily Freeman, I'm the author of devops for dummies and the curator of 97 things every cloud engineer should know. I am thrilled to be here with you all today. I am really excited to share with you a kind of a wild idea, a complete re imagining of the S DLC and I want to be clear, I need your feedback. I want to know what you think of this. You can always find me on twitter at editing. Emily, most of my work centers around deVOps and I really can't overstate what an impact the concept of deVOPS has had on this industry in many ways it built on the foundation of Agile to become a default a standard we all reach for in our everyday work. When devops surfaced as an idea in 2008, the tech industry was in a vastly different space. AWS was an infancy offering only a handful of services. Azure and G C P didn't exist yet. The majority's majority of companies maintained their own infrastructure. Developers wrote code and relied on sys admins to deploy new code at scheduled intervals. Sometimes months apart, container technology hadn't been invented applications adhered to a monolithic architecture, databases were almost exclusively relational and serverless wasn't even a concept. Everything from the application to the engineers was centralized. Our current ecosystem couldn't be more different. Software is still hard, don't get me wrong, but we continue to find novel solutions to consistently difficult, persistent problems. Now, some of these end up being a sort of rebranding of old ideas, but others are a unique and clever take to abstracting complexity or automating toil or perhaps most important, rethinking challenging the very premises we have accepted as Cannon for years, if not decades. In the years since deVOps attempted to answer the critical conflict between developers and operations, engineers, deVOps has become a catch all term and there have been a number of derivative works. Devops has come to mean 5000 different things to 5000 different people. For some, it can be distilled to continuous integration and continuous delivery or C I C D. For others, it's simply deploying code more frequently, perhaps adding a smattering of tests for others. Still, its organizational, they've added a platform team, perhaps even a questionably named DEVOPS team or have created an engineering structure that focuses on a separation of concerns. Leaving feature teams to manage the development, deployment, security and maintenance of their siloed services, say, whatever the interpretation, what's important is that there isn't a universally accepted standard. Well, what deVOPS is or what it looks like an execution, it's a philosophy more than anything else. A framework people can utilize to configure and customize their specific circumstances to modern development practices. The characteristic of deVOPS that I think we can all agree on though, is that an attempted to capture the challenges of the entire software development process. It's that broad umbrella, that holistic view that I think we need to breathe life into again, The challenge we face is that DeVOps isn't increasingly outmoded solution to a previous problem developers now face. Cultural and technical challenge is far greater than how to more quickly deploy a monolithic application. Cloud native is the future the next collection of default development decisions and one the deVOPS story can't absorb in its current form. I believe the era of deVOPS is waning and in this moment as the sun sets on deVOPS, we have a unique opportunity to rethink rebuild free platform. Even now, I don't have a crystal ball. That would be very handy. I'm not completely certain with the next decade of tech looks like and I can't write this story alone. I need you but I have some ideas that can get the conversation started, I believe to build on what was we have to throw away assumptions that we've taken for granted all this time in order to move forward. We must first step back. Mhm. The software or systems development life cycle, what we call the S. D. L. C. has been in use since the 1960s and it's remained more or less the same since before color television and the touch tone phone. Over the last 60 or so odd years we've made tweaks, slight adjustments, massaged it. The stages or steps are always a little different with agile and deVOps we sort of looped it into a circle and then an infinity loop we've added pretty colors. But the sclc is more or less the same and it has become an assumption. We don't even think about it anymore, universally adopted constructs like the sclc have an unspoken permanence. They feel as if they have always been and always will be. I think the impact of that is even more potent. If you were born after a construct was popularized. Nearly everything around us is a construct, a model, an artifact of a human idea. The chair you're sitting in the desk, you work at the mug from which you drink coffee or sometimes wine, buildings, toilets, plumbing, roads, cars, art, computers, everything. The sclc is a remnant an artifact of a previous era and I think we should throw it away or perhaps more accurately replace it, replace it with something that better reflects the actual nature of our work. A linear, single threaded model designed for the manufacturer of material goods cannot possibly capture the distributed complexity of modern socio technical systems. It just can't. Mhm. And these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive that the sclc was industry changing, valuable and extraordinarily impactful and that it's time for something new. I believe we are strong enough to hold these two ideas at the same time, showing respect for the past while envisioning the future. Now, I don't know about you, I've never had a software project goes smoothly in one go. No matter how small. Even if I'm the only person working on it and committing directly to master software development is chaos. It's a study and entropy and it is not getting any more simple. The model with which we think and talk about software development must capture the multithreaded, non sequential nature of our work. It should embody the roles engineers take on and the considerations they make along the way. It should build on the foundations of agile and devops and represent the iterative nature of continuous innovation. Now, when I was thinking about this, I was inspired by ideas like extreme programming and the spiral model. I I wanted something that would have layers, threads, even a way of visually representing multiple processes happening in parallel. And what I settled on is the revolution model. I believe the visualization of revolution is capable of capturing the pivotal moments of any software scenario. And I'm going to dive into all the discrete elements. But I want to give you a moment to have a first impression, to absorb my idea. I call it revolution because well for one it revolves, it's circular shape reflects the continuous and iterative nature of our work, but also because it is revolutionary. I am challenging a 60 year old model that is embedded into our daily language. I don't expect Gartner to build a magic quadrant around this tomorrow, but that would be super cool. And you should call me my mission with. This is to challenge the status quo to create a model that I think more accurately reflects the complexity of modern cloud native software development. The revolution model is constructed of five concentric circles describing the critical roles of software development architect. Ng development, automating, deploying and operating intersecting each loop are six spokes that describe the production considerations every engineer has to consider throughout any engineering work and that's test, ability, secure ability, reliability, observe ability, flexibility and scalability. The considerations listed are not all encompassing. There are of course things not explicitly included. I figured if I put 20 spokes, some of us, including myself, might feel a little overwhelmed. So let's dive into each element in this model. We have long used personas as the default way to do divide audiences and tailor messages to group people. Every company in the world right now is repeating the mantra of developers, developers, developers but personas have always bugged me a bit because this approach typically either oversimplifies someone's career are needlessly complicated. Few people fit cleanly and completely into persona based buckets like developers and operations anymore. The lines have gotten fuzzy on the other hand, I don't think we need to specifically tailor messages as to call out the difference between a devops engineer and a release engineer or a security administrator versus a security engineer but perhaps most critically, I believe personas are immutable. A persona is wholly dependent on how someone identifies themselves. It's intrinsic not extrinsic. Their titles may change their jobs may differ, but they're probably still selecting the same persona on that ubiquitous drop down. We all have to choose from when registering for an event. Probably this one too. I I was a developer and I will always identify as a developer despite doing a ton of work in areas like devops and Ai Ops and Deverell in my heart. I'm a developer I think about problems from that perspective. First it influences my thinking and my approach roles are very different. Roles are temporary, inconsistent, constantly fluctuating. If I were an actress, the parts I would play would be lengthy and varied, but the persona I would identify as would remain an actress and artist lesbian. Your work isn't confined to a single set of skills. It may have been a decade ago, but it is not today in any given week or sprint, you may play the role of an architect. Thinking about how to design a feature or service, developer building out code or fixing a bug and on automation engineer, looking at how to improve manual processes. We often refer to as soil release engineer, deploying code to different environments or releasing it to customers or in operations. Engineer ensuring an application functions inconsistent expected ways and no matter what role we play. We have to consider a number of issues. The first is test ability. All software systems require testing to assure architects that designs work developers, the code works operators, that infrastructure is running as expected and engineers of all disciplines that code changes won't bring down the whole system testing in its many forms is what enables systems to be durable and have longevity. It's what reassures engineers that changes won't impact current functionality. A system without tests is a disaster waiting to happen, which is why test ability is first among equals at this particular roundtable. Security is everyone's responsibility. But if you understand how to design and execute secure systems, I struggle with this security incidents for the most part are high impact, low probability events. The really big disasters, the one that the ones that end up on the news and get us all free credit reporting for a year. They don't happen super frequently and then goodness because you know that there are endless small vulnerabilities lurking in our systems. Security is something we all know we should dedicate time to but often don't make time for. And let's be honest, it's hard and complicated and a little scary def sec apps. The first derivative of deVOPS asked engineers to move security left this approach. Mint security was a consideration early in the process, not something that would block release at the last moment. This is also the consideration under which I'm putting compliance and governance well not perfectly aligned. I figure all the things you have to call lawyers for should just live together. I'm kidding. But in all seriousness, these three concepts are really about risk management, identity, data, authorization. It doesn't really matter what specific issue you're speaking about, the question is who has access to what win and how and that is everyone's responsibility at every stage site reliability engineering or sorry, is a discipline job and approach for good reason. It is absolutely critical that applications and services work as expected. Most of the time. That said, availability is often mistakenly treated as a synonym for reliability. Instead, it's a single aspect of the concept if a system is available but customer data is inaccurate or out of sync. The system is not reliable, reliability has five key components, availability, latency, throughput. Fidelity and durability, reliability is the end result. But resiliency for me is the journey the action engineers can take to improve reliability, observe ability is the ability to have insight into an application or system. It's the combination of telemetry and monitoring and alerting available to engineers and leadership. There's an aspect of observe ability that overlaps with reliability, but the purpose of observe ability isn't just to maintain a reliable system though, that is of course important. It is the capacity for engineers working on a system to have visibility into the inner workings of that system. The concept of observe ability actually originates and linear dynamic systems. It's defined as how well internal states of a system can be understood based on information about its external outputs. If it is critical when companies move systems to the cloud or utilize managed services that they don't lose visibility and confidence in their systems. The shared responsibility model of cloud storage compute and managed services require that engineering teams be able to quickly be alerted to identify and remediate issues as they arise. Flexible systems are capable of adapting to meet the ever changing needs of the customer and the market segment, flexible code bases absorb new code smoothly. Embody a clean separation of concerns. Are partitioned into small components or classes and architected to enable the now as well as the next inflexible systems. Change dependencies are reduced or eliminated. Database schemas accommodate change well components, communicate via a standardized and well documented A. P. I. The only thing constant in our industry is change and every role we play, creating flexibility and solutions that can be flexible that will grow as the applications grow is absolutely critical. Finally, scalability scalability refers to more than a system's ability to scale for additional load. It implies growth scalability and the revolution model carries the continuous innovation of a team and the byproducts of that growth within a system. For me, scalability is the most human of the considerations. It requires each of us in our various roles to consider everyone around us, our customers who use the system or rely on its services, our colleagues current and future with whom we collaborate and even our future selves. Mhm. Software development isn't a straight line, nor is it a perfect loop. It is an ever changing complex dance. There are twirls and pivots and difficult spins forward and backward. Engineers move in parallel, creating truly magnificent pieces of art. We need a modern model for this modern era and I believe this is just the revolution to get us started. Thank you so much for having me. >>Hey, we're back here. Live in the keynote studio. I'm john for your host here with lisa martin. David lot is getting ready for the fireside chat ending keynote with the practitioner. Hello! Fresh without data mesh lisa Emily is amazing. The funky artwork there. She's amazing with the talk. I was mesmerized. It was impressive. >>The revolution of devops and the creative element was a really nice surprise there. But I love what she's doing. She's challenging the status quo. If we've learned nothing in the last year and a half, We need to challenge the status quo. A model from the 1960s that is no longer linear. What she's doing is revolutionary. >>And we hear this all the time. All the cube interviews we do is that you're seeing the leaders, the SVP's of engineering or these departments where there's new new people coming in that are engineering or developers, they're playing multiple roles. It's almost a multidisciplinary aspect where you know, it's like going into in and out burger in the fryer later and then you're doing the grill, you're doing the cashier, people are changing roles or an architect, their test release all in one no longer departmental, slow siloed groups. >>She brought up a great point about persona is that we no longer fit into these buckets. That the changing roles. It's really the driver of how we should be looking at this. >>I think I'm really impressed, really bold idea, no brainer as far as I'm concerned, I think one of the things and then the comments were off the charts in a lot of young people come from discord servers. We had a good traction over there but they're all like learning. Then you have the experience, people saying this is definitely has happened and happening. The dominoes are falling and they're falling in the direction of modernization. That's the key trend speed. >>Absolutely with speed. But the way that Emily is presenting it is not in a brash bold, but it's in a way that makes great sense. The way that she creatively visually lined out what she was talking about Is amenable to the folks that have been doing this for since the 60s and the new folks now to really look at this from a different >>lens and I think she's a great setup on that lightning top of the 15 companies we got because you think about sis dig harness. I white sourced flamingo hacker one send out, I oh, okay. Thought spot rock set Sarah Ops ramp and Ops Monte cloud apps, sani all are doing modern stuff and we talked to them and they're all on this new wave, this monster wave coming. What's your observation when you talk to these companies? >>They are, it was great. I got to talk with eight of the 15 and the amount of acceleration of innovation that they've done in the last 18 months is phenomenal obviously with the power and the fuel and the brand reputation of aws but really what they're all facilitating cultural shift when we think of devoPS and the security folks. Um, there's a lot of work going on with ai to an automation to really kind of enabled to develop the develops folks to be in control of the process and not have to be security experts but ensuring that the security is baked in shifting >>left. We saw that the chat room was really active on the security side and one of the things I noticed was not just shift left but the other groups, the security groups and the theme of cultural, I won't say war but collision cultural shift that's happening between the groups is interesting because you have this new devops persona has been around Emily put it out for a while. But now it's going to the next level. There's new revolutions about a mindset, a systems mindset. It's a thinking and you start to see the new young companies coming out being funded by the gray locks of the world who are now like not going to be given the we lost the top three clouds one, everything. there's new business models and new technical architecture in the cloud and that's gonna be jerry Chen talk coming up next is going to be castles in the clouds because jerry chant always talked about moats, competitive advantage and how moats are key to success to guard the castle. And then we always joke, there's no more moz because the cloud has killed all the boats. But now the motor in the cloud, the castles are in the cloud, not on the ground. So very interesting thought provoking. But he's got data and if you look at the successful companies like the snowflakes of the world, you're starting to see these new formations of this new layer of innovation where companies are growing rapidly, 98 unicorns now in the cloud. Unbelievable, >>wow, that's a lot. One of the things you mentioned, there's competitive advantage and these startups are all fueled by that they know that there are other companies in the rear view mirror right behind them. If they're not able to work as quickly and as flexibly as a competitor, they have to have that speed that time to market that time to value. It was absolutely critical. And that's one of the things I think thematically that I saw along the eighth sort of that I talked to is that time to value is absolutely table stakes. >>Well, I'm looking forward to talking to jerry chan because we've talked on the queue before about this whole idea of What happens when winner takes most would mean the top 3, 4 cloud players. What happens? And we were talking about that and saying, if you have a model where an ecosystem can develop, what does that look like and back in 2013, 2014, 2015, no one really had an answer. Jerry was the only BC. He really nailed it with this castles in the cloud. He nailed the idea that this is going to happen. And so I think, you know, we'll look back at the tape or the videos from the cube, we'll find those cuts. But we were talking about this then we were pontificating and riffing on the fact that there's going to be new winners and they're gonna look different as Andy Jassy always says in the cube you have to be misunderstood if you're really going to make something happen. Most of the most successful companies are misunderstood. Not anymore. The cloud scales there. And that's what's exciting about all this. >>It is exciting that the scale is there, the appetite is there the appetite to challenge the status quo, which is right now in this economic and dynamic market that we're living in is there's nothing better. >>One of the things that's come up and and that's just real quick before we bring jerry in is automation has been insecurity, absolutely security's been in every conversation, but automation is now so hot in the sense of it's real and it's becoming part of all the design decisions. How can we automate can we automate faster where the keys to automation? Is that having the right data, What data is available? So I think the idea of automation and Ai are driving all the change and that's to me is what these new companies represent this modern error where AI is built into the outcome and the apps and all that infrastructure. So it's super exciting. Um, let's check in, we got jerry Chen line at least a great. We're gonna come back after jerry and then kick off the day. Let's bring in jerry Chen from Greylock is he here? Let's bring him in there. He is. >>Hey john good to see you. >>Hey, congratulations on an amazing talk and thesis on the castles on the cloud. Thanks for coming on. >>All right, Well thanks for reading it. Um, always were being put a piece of workout out either. Not sure what the responses, but it seemed to resonate with a bunch of developers, founders, investors and folks like yourself. So smart people seem to gravitate to us. So thank you very much. >>Well, one of the benefits of doing the Cube for 11 years, Jerry's we have videotape of many, many people talking about what the future will hold. You kind of are on this early, it wasn't called castles in the cloud, but you were all I was, we had many conversations were kind of connecting the dots in real time. But you've been on this for a while. It's great to see the work. I really think you nailed this. I think you're absolutely on point here. So let's get into it. What is castles in the cloud? New research to come out from Greylock that you spearheaded? It's collaborative effort, but you've got data behind it. Give a quick overview of what is castle the cloud, the new modes of competitive advantage for companies. >>Yeah, it's as a group project that our team put together but basically john the question is, how do you win in the cloud? Remember the conversation we had eight years ago when amazon re event was holy cow, Like can you compete with them? Like is it a winner? Take all? Winner take most And if it is winner take most, where are the white spaces for Some starts to to emerge and clearly the past eight years in the cloud this journey, we've seen big companies, data breaks, snowflakes, elastic Mongo data robot. And so um they spotted the question is, you know, why are the castles in the cloud? The big three cloud providers, Amazon google and Azure winning. You know, what advantage do they have? And then given their modes of scale network effects, how can you as a startup win? And so look, there are 500 plus services between all three cloud vendors, but there are like 500 plus um startups competing gets a cloud vendors and there's like almost 100 unicorn of private companies competing successfully against the cloud vendors, including public companies. So like Alaska, Mongo Snowflake. No data breaks. Not public yet. Hashtag or not public yet. These are some examples of the names that I think are winning and watch this space because you see more of these guys storm the castle if you will. >>Yeah. And you know one of the things that's a funny metaphor because it has many different implications. One, as we talk about security, the perimeter of the gates, the moats being on land. But now you're in the cloud, you have also different security paradigm. You have a different um, new kinds of services that are coming on board faster than ever before. Not just from the cloud players but From companies contributing into the ecosystem. So the combination of the big three making the market the main markets you, I think you call 31 markets that we know of that probably maybe more. And then you have this notion of a sub market, which means that there's like we used to call it white space back in the day, remember how many whites? Where's the white space? I mean if you're in the cloud, there's like a zillion white spaces. So talk about this sub market dynamic between markets and that are being enabled by the cloud players and how these sub markets play into it. >>Sure. So first, the first problem was what we did. We downloaded all the services for the big three clowns. Right? And you know what as recalls a database or database service like a document DB and amazon is like Cosmo dB and Azure. So first thing first is we had to like look at all three cloud providers and you? Re categorize all the services almost 500 Apples, Apples, Apples # one number two is you look at all these markets or sub markets and said, okay, how can we cluster these services into things that you know you and I can rock right. That's what amazon Azure and google think about. It is very different and the beauty of the cloud is this kind of fat long tail of services for developers. So instead of like oracle is a single database for all your needs. They're like 20 or 30 different databases from time series um analytics, databases. We're talking rocks at later today. Right. Um uh, document databases like Mongo search database like elastic. And so what happens is there's not one giant market like databases, there's a database market And 30, 40 sub markets that serve the needs developers. So the Great News is cloud has reduced the cost and create something that new for developers. Um also the good news is for a start up you can find plenty of white speeds solving a pain point, very specific to a different type of problem >>and you can sequence up to power law to this. I love the power of a metaphor, you know, used to be a very thin neck note no torso and then a long tail. But now as you're pointing out this expansion of the fat tail of services, but also there's big tam's and markets available at the top of the power law where you see coming like snowflake essentially take on the data warehousing market by basically sitting on amazon re factoring with new services and then getting a flywheel completely changing the economic unit economics completely changing the consumption model completely changing the value proposition >>literally you >>get Snowflake has created like a storm, create a hole, that mode or that castle wall against red shift. Then companies like rock set do your real time analytics is Russian right behind snowflakes saying, hey snowflake is great for data warehouse but it's not fast enough for real time analytics. Let me give you something new to your, to your parallel argument. Even the big optic snowflake have created kind of a wake behind them that created even more white space for Gaza rock set. So that's exciting for guys like me and >>you. And then also as we were talking about our last episode two or quarter two of our showcase. Um, from a VC came on, it's like the old shelf where you didn't know if a company's successful until they had to return the inventory now with cloud you if you're not successful, you know it right away. It's like there's no debate. Like, I mean you're either winning or not. This is like that's so instrumented so a company can have a good better mousetrap and win and fill the white space and then move up. >>It goes both ways. The cloud vendor, the big three amazon google and Azure for sure. They instrument their own class. They know john which ecosystem partners doing well in which ecosystems doing poorly and they hear from the customers exactly what they want. So it goes both ways they can weaponize that. And just as well as you started to weaponize that info >>and that's the big argument of do that snowflake still pays the amazon bills. They're still there. So again, repatriation comes back, That's a big conversation that's come up. What's your quick take on that? Because if you're gonna have a castle in the cloud, then you're gonna bring it back to land. I mean, what's that dynamic? Where do you see that compete? Because on one hand is innovation. The other ones maybe cost efficiency. Is that a growth indicator slow down? What's your view on the movement from and to the cloud? >>I think there's probably three forces you're finding here. One is the cost advantage in the scale advantage of cloud so that I think has been going for the past eight years, there's a repatriation movement for a certain subset of customers, I think for cost purposes makes sense. I think that's a tiny handful that believe they can actually run things better than a cloud. The third thing we're seeing around repatriation is not necessary against cloud, but you're gonna see more decentralized clouds and things pushed to the edge. Right? So you look at companies like Cloudflare Fastly or a company that we're investing in Cato networks. All ideas focus on secure access at the edge. And so I think that's not the repatriation of my own data center, which is kind of a disaggregated of cloud from one giant monolithic cloud, like AWS east or like a google region in europe to multiple smaller clouds for governance purposes, security purposes or legacy purposes. >>So I'm looking at my notes here, looking down on the screen here for this to read this because it's uh to cut and paste from your thesis on the cloud. The excellent cloud. The of the $38 billion invested this quarter. Um Ai and ml number one, um analytics. Number two, security number three. Actually, security number one. But you can see the bubbles here. So all those are data problems I need to ask you. I see data is hot data as intellectual property. How do you look at that? Because we've been reporting on this and we just started the cube conversation around workflows as intellectual property. If you have scale and your motives in the cloud. You could argue that data and the workflows around those data streams is intellectual property. It's a protocol >>I believe both are. And they just kind of go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly. Right? So data for sure. I. P. So if you know people talk about days in the oil, the new resource. That's largely true because of powers a bunch. But the workflow to your point john is sticky because every company is a unique snowflake right? Like the process used to run the cube and your business different how we run our business. So if you can build a workflow that leverages the data, that's super sticky. So in terms of switching costs, if my work is very bespoke to your business, then I think that's competitive advantage. >>Well certainly your workflow is a lot different than the cube. You guys just a lot of billions of dollars in capital. We're talking to all the people out here jerry. Great to have you on final thought on your thesis. Where does it go from here? What's been the reaction? Uh No, you put it out there. Great love the restart. Think you're on point on this one. Where did we go from here? >>We have to follow pieces um in the near term one around, you know, deep diver on open source. So look out for that pretty soon and how that's been a powerful strategy a second. Is this kind of just aggregation of the cloud be a Blockchain and you know, decentralized apps, be edge applications. So that's in the near term two more pieces of, of deep dive we're doing. And then the goal here is to update this on a quarterly and annual basis. So we're getting submissions from founders that wanted to say, hey, you missed us or he screwed up here. We got the big cloud vendors saying, Hey jerry, we just lost his new things. So our goal here is to update this every single year and then probably do look back saying, okay, uh, where were we wrong? We're right. And then let's say the castle clouds 2022. We'll see the difference were the more unicorns were there more services were the IPO's happening. So look for some short term work from us on analytics, like around open source and clouds. And then next year we hope that all of this forward saying, Hey, you have two year, what's happening? What's changing? >>Great stuff and, and congratulations on the southern news. You guys put another half a billion dollars into early, early stage, which is your roots. Are you still doing a lot of great investments in a lot of unicorns. Congratulations that. Great luck on the team. Thanks for coming on and congratulations you nailed this one. I think I'm gonna look back and say that this is a pretty seminal piece of work here. Thanks for sharing. >>Thanks john thanks for having us. >>Okay. Okay. This is the cube here and 81 startup showcase. We're about to get going in on all the hot companies closing out the kino lisa uh, see jerry Chen cube alumni. He was right from day one. We've been riffing on this, but he nails it here. I think Greylock is lucky to have him as a general partner. He's done great deals, but I think he's hitting the next wave big. This is, this is huge. >>I was listening to you guys talking thinking if if you had a crystal ball back in 2013, some of the things Jerry saying now his narrative now, what did he have a crystal >>ball? He did. I mean he could be a cuBA host and I could be a venture capital. We were both right. I think so. We could have been, you know, doing that together now and all serious now. He was right. I mean, we talked off camera about who's the next amazon who's going to challenge amazon and Andy Jassy was quoted many times in the queue by saying, you know, he was surprised that it took so long for people to figure out what they were doing. Okay, jerry was that VM where he had visibility into the cloud. He saw amazon right away like we did like this is a winning formula and so he was really out front on this one. >>Well in the investments that they're making in these unicorns is exciting. They have this, this lens that they're able to see the opportunities there almost before anybody else can. And finding more white space where we didn't even know there was any. >>Yeah. And what's interesting about the report I'm gonna dig into and I want to get to him while he's on camera because it's a great report, but He says it's like 500 services I think Amazon has 5000. So how you define services as an interesting thing and a lot of amazon services that they have as your doesn't have and vice versa, they do call that out. So I find the report interesting. It's gonna be a feature game in the future between clouds the big three. They're gonna say we do this, you're starting to see the formation, Google's much more developer oriented. Amazon is much more stronger in the governance area with data obviously as he pointed out, they have such experience Microsoft, not so much their developer cloud and more office, not so much on the government's side. So that that's an indicator of my, my opinion of kind of where they rank. So including the number one is still amazon web services as your long second place, way behind google, right behind Azure. So we'll see how the horses come in, >>right. And it's also kind of speaks to the hybrid world in which we're living the hybrid multi cloud world in which many companies are living as companies to not just survive in the last year and a half, but to thrive and really have to become data companies and leverage that data as a competitive advantage to be able to unlock the value of it. And a lot of these startups that we talked to in the showcase are talking about how they're helping organizations unlock that data value. As jerry said, it is the new oil, it's the new gold. Not unless you can unlock that value faster than your competition. >>Yeah, well, I'm just super excited. We got a great day ahead of us with with all the cots startups. And then at the end day, Volonte is gonna interview, hello, fresh practitioners, We're gonna close it out every episode now, we're going to do with the closing practitioner. We try to get jpmorgan chase data measures. The hottest area right now in the enterprise data is new competitive advantage. We know that data workflows are now intellectual property. You're starting to see data really factoring into these applications now as a key aspect of the competitive advantage and the value creation. So companies that are smart are investing heavily in that and the ones that are kind of slow on the uptake are lagging the market and just trying to figure it out. So you start to see that transition and you're starting to see people fall away now from the fact that they're not gonna make it right, You're starting to, you know, you can look at look at any happens saying how much ai is really in there. Real ai what's their data strategy and you almost squint through that and go, okay, that's gonna be losing application. >>Well the winners are making it a board level conversation >>And security isn't built in. Great to have you on this morning kicking it off. Thanks John Okay, we're going to go into the next set of the program at 10:00 we're going to move into the breakouts. Check out the companies is three tracks in there. We have an awesome track on devops pure devops. We've got the data and analytics and we got the cloud management and just to run down real quick check out the sis dig harness. Io system is doing great, securing devops harness. IO modern software delivery platform, White Source. They're preventing and remediating the rest of the internet for them for the company's that's a really interesting and lumbago, effortless acres land and monitoring functions, server list super hot. And of course hacker one is always great doing a lot of great missions and and bounties you see those success continue to send i O there in Palo alto changing the game on data engineering and data pipe lining. Okay. Data driven another new platform, horizontally scalable and of course thought spot ai driven kind of a search paradigm and of course rock set jerry Chen's companies here and press are all doing great in the analytics and then the cloud management cost side 80 operations day to operate. Ops ramps and ops multi cloud are all there and sunny, all all going to present. So check them out. This is the Cubes Adria's startup showcase episode three.

>>Hello and welcome today's cube presentation of eight of us startup showcase. I'm john for your host highlighting the hottest companies and devops data analytics and cloud management lisa martin and David want are here to kick it off. We've got a great program for you again. This is our, our new community event model where we're doing every quarter, we have every new episode, this is quarter three this year or episode three, season one of the hottest cloud startups and we're gonna be featured. Then we're gonna do a keynote package and then 15 countries will present their story, Go check them out and then have a closing keynote with a practitioner and we've got some great lineups, lisa Dave, great to see you. Thanks for joining me. Hey >>guys, great to be here. >>So David got to ask you, you know, back in events last night we're at the 14 it's event where they had the golf PGA championship with the cube Now we got the hybrid model, This is the new normal. We're in, we got these great companies were showcasing them. What's your take? >>Well, you're right. I mean, I think there's a combination of things. We're seeing some live shows. We saw what we did with at mobile world Congress. We did the show with AWS storage day where it was, we were at the spheres, there was no, there was a live audience, but they weren't there physically. It was just virtual and yeah, so, and I just got pained about reinvent. Hey Dave, you gotta make your flights. So I'm making my flights >>were gonna be at the amazon web services, public sector summit next week. At least a lot, a lot of cloud convergence going on here. We got many companies being featured here that we spoke with the Ceo and their top people cloud management, devops data, nelson security. Really cutting edge companies, >>yes, cutting edge companies who are all focused on acceleration. We've talked about the acceleration of digital transformation the last 18 months and we've seen a tremendous amount of acceleration in innovation with what these startups are doing. We've talked to like you said, there's, there's C suite, we've also talked to their customers about how they are innovating so quickly with this hybrid environment, this remote work and we've talked a lot about security in the last week or so. You mentioned that we were at Fortinet cybersecurity skills gap. What some of these companies are doing with automation for example, to help shorten that gap, which is a big opportunity for the >>job market. Great stuff. Dave so the format of this event, you're going to have a fireside chat with the practitioner, we'd like to end these programs with a great experienced practitioner cutting edge in data february. The beginning lisa are gonna be kicking off with of course Jeff bar to give us the update on what's going on AWS and then a special presentation from Emily Freeman who is the author of devops for dummies, she's introducing new content. The revolution in devops devops two point oh and of course jerry Chen from Greylock cube alumni is going to come on and talk about his new thesis castles in the cloud creating moats at cloud scale. We've got a great lineup of people and so the front ends can be great. Dave give us a little preview of what people can expect at the end of the fireside chat. >>Well at the highest level john I've always said we're entering that sort of third great wave of cloud. First wave was experimentation. The second big wave was migration. The third wave of integration, Deep business integration and what you're going to hear from Hello Fresh today is how they like many companies that started early last decade. They started with an on prem Hadoop system and then of course we all know what happened is S three essentially took the knees out from, from the on prem Hadoop market lowered costs, brought things into the cloud and what Hello Fresh is doing is they're transforming from that legacy Hadoop system into its running on AWS but into a data mess, you know, it's a passionate topic of mine. Hello Fresh was scaling they realized that they couldn't keep up so they had to rethink their entire data architecture and they built it around data mesh Clements key and christoph Soewandi gonna explain how they actually did that are on a journey or decentralized data measure >>it and your posts have been awesome on data measure. We get a lot of traction. Certainly you're breaking analysis for the folks watching check out David Landes, Breaking analysis every week, highlighting the cutting edge trends in tech Dave. We're gonna see you later, lisa and I are gonna be here in the morning talking about with Emily. We got Jeff Barr teed up. Dave. Thanks for coming on. Looking forward to fireside chat lisa. We'll see you when Emily comes back on. But we're gonna go to Jeff bar right now for Dave and I are gonna interview Jeff. Mm >>Hey Jeff, >>here he is. Hey, how are you? How's it >>going really well. >>So I gotta ask you, the reinvent is on, everyone wants to know that's happening right. We're good with Reinvent. >>Reinvent is happening. I've got my hotel and actually listening today, if I just remembered, I still need to actually book my flights. I've got my to do list on my desk and I do need to get my flights. Uh, really looking forward to it. >>I can't wait to see the all the announcements and blog posts. We're gonna, we're gonna hear from jerry Chen later. I love the after on our next event. Get your reaction to this castle and castles in the cloud where competitive advantages can be built in the cloud. We're seeing examples of that. But first I gotta ask you give us an update of what's going on. The ap and ecosystem has been an incredible uh, celebration these past couple weeks, >>so, so a lot of different things happening and the interesting thing to me is that as part of my job, I often think that I'm effectively living in the future because I get to see all this really cool stuff that we're building just a little bit before our customers get to, and so I'm always thinking okay, here I am now, and what's the world going to be like in a couple of weeks to a month or two when these launches? I'm working on actually get out the door and that, that's always really, really fun, just kind of getting that, that little edge into where we're going, but this year was a little interesting because we had to really significant birthdays, we had the 15 year anniversary of both EC two and S three and we're so focused on innovating and moving forward, that it's actually pretty rare for us at Aws to look back and say, wow, we've actually done all these amazing things in in the last 15 years, >>you know, it's kind of cool Jeff, if I may is is, you know, of course in the early days everybody said, well, a place for startup is a W. S and now the great thing about the startup showcases, we're seeing the startups that are very near, or some of them have even reached escape velocity, so they're not, they're not tiny little companies anymore, they're in their transforming their respective industries, >>they really are and I think that as they start ups grow, they really start to lean into the power of the cloud. They as they start to think, okay, we've we've got our basic infrastructure in place, we've got, we were serving data, we're serving up a few customers, everything is actually working pretty well for us. We've got our fundamental model proven out now, we can invest in publicity and marketing and scaling and but they don't have to think about what's happening behind the scenes. They just if they've got their auto scaling or if they're survivalists, the infrastructure simply grows to meet their demand and it's it's just a lot less things that they have to worry about. They can focus on the fun part of their business which is actually listening to customers and building up an awesome business >>Jeff as you guys are putting together all the big pre reinvented, knows a lot of stuff that goes on prior as well and they say all the big good stuff to reinvent. But you start to see some themes emerged this year. One of them is modernization of applications, the speed of application development in the cloud with the cloud scale devops personas, whatever persona you want to talk about but basically speed the speed of of the app developers where other departments have been slowing things down, I won't say name names, but security group and I t I mean I shouldn't have said that but only kidding but no but seriously people want in minutes and seconds now not days or weeks. You know whether it's policy. What are some of the trends that you're seeing around this this year as we get into some of the new stuff coming out >>So Dave customers really do want speed and for we've actually encapsulate this for a long time in amazon in what we call the bias for action leadership principle where we just need to jump in and move forward and and make things happen. A lot of customers look at that and they say yes this is great. We need to have the same bias fraction. Some do. Some are still trying to figure out exactly how to put it into play. And they absolutely for sure need to pay attention to security. They need to respect the past and make sure that whatever they're doing is in line with I. T. But they do want to move forward. And the interesting thing that I see time and time again is it's not simply about let's adopt a new technology. It's how do we how do we keep our workforce engaged? How do we make sure that they've got the right training? How do we bring our our I. T. Team along for this. Hopefully new and fun and exciting journey where they get to learn some interesting new technologies they've got all this very much accumulated business knowledge they still want to put to use, maybe they're a little bit apprehensive about something brand new and they hear about the cloud, but there by and large, they really want to move forward. They just need a little bit of help to make it happen real >>good guys. One of the things you're gonna hear today, we're talking about speed traditionally going fast. Oftentimes you meant you have to sacrifice some things on quality and what you're going to hear from some of the startups today is how they're addressing that to automation and modern devoPS technologies and sort of rethinking that whole application development approach. That's something I'm really excited to see organization is beginning to adopt so they don't have to make that tradeoff anymore. >>Yeah, I would never want to see someone sacrifice quality, but I do think that iterating very quickly and using the best of devoPS principles to be able to iterate incredibly quickly and get that first launch out there and then listen with both ears just as much as you can, Everything. You hear iterate really quickly to meet those needs in, in hours and days, not months, quarters or years. >>Great stuff. Chef and a lot of the companies were featuring here in the startup showcase represent that new kind of thinking, um, systems thinking as well as you know, the cloud scale and again and it's finally here, the revolution of deVOps is going to the next generation and uh, we're excited to have Emily Freeman who's going to come on and give a little preview for her new talk on this revolution. So Jeff, thank you for coming on, appreciate you sharing the update here on the cube. Happy >>to be. I'm actually really looking forward to hearing from Emily. >>Yeah, it's great. Great. Looking forward to the talk.

>>Welcome back to Vienna on 2021 you're watching the Cube and my name is Dave Volonte. You know, the last 10 years of cloud, they were largely about spinning up virtualized compute infrastructure and accessing cheap and simple object storage and some other things like networking. The cloud was largely though a set of remote resources that simplify deployment and supported the whole spate of native applications that have emerged to power the activity of individuals and businesses the next decade, however, promises to build on the troves of data that live in the cloud, make connections to on premises applications and support new application innovations that are agile, iterative, portable and span resources in all in all the clouds, public clouds, private clouds, cross cloud connections all the way out to the near and far edge. In a linchpin of this new application development model is container platforms and container orchestration, which brings immense scale and capability to technology driven organizations, especially as they have evolved from supporting stateless applications to underpinning mission critical workloads as such containers bring complexities and risks that need to be addressed, not the least of which is protecting the massive amounts of data that are flowing through these systems. And with me to discuss these exciting and challenging trends or Danny Allen, who's the ceo of in and Niraj Tolia, the president at Kasten Bivins gentlemen welcome to the cube. >>Thank you delighted to be here with you Dave. >>Likewise, very excited to be a Dave. >>Okay, so Danny big M and a move. Great little acquisition. You're now seeing others try to make similar moves. Why what did you see in cast in? What was the fit? Why'd you make that move? >>Well, I think you nailed it. Dave's. We've seen an evolution in the infrastructure that's being used over the last two decades. So if you go back 20 years, there was a massive digital transformation to enable users to be self service with digital applications. About 2000 or so, 2010, everything started being virtualized. I know virtualization came along before that but virtualization really started to take off because it gave return on investment and gave flexibility all kinds of benefits. But now we're in a third wave which is built on containers. And the amazing thing about containers is that as you said, it allows you to connect multi cloud, hybrid cloud the edge to the core. And they're designed for the consumption world. If you think about the cloud, you can provision things deep provisions things. That's the way that containers are designed the applications and so because they're designed for a consumption based world because they are designed for portability across all of these different infrastructures, it only made sense for us to invest in the industry's leading provider of data protection for kubernetes. And that of course is costume, >>there's some garage, I mean take us back. I mean, you know, container has been around forever. But then, you know, they started to, you know, hit go mainstream and and and and at first, you know, they were obviously ephemeral, stateless apps, kind of lightweight stuff. But but you at the time you and the team said, okay, these are gonna become more complex microservices. Maybe so micro, but you had to have the vision and you made a bet uh maybe take us back to sort of how you saw that and where where's containers have have come from? >>Sure. So let's rewind the clock right. As you said, containers, old technology in the same way virtualization started with IBM mainframes, right, containers in different forms have been around for a while. But I think when the light bulb went off for me was very early days in 2015 when my engineering team, a previous company started complaining. And the reason they were complaining about different other engineering groups and the reason they were complaining was because the right things, things were coming together sooner. We're identifying things sooner. And that's when I said, this is going to be the next wave of infrastructure. The same way watch a light virtualization revolutionized how people built deployed apps. We saw that with containers and in particular in those days we made that bet on commodities. Right? So we said from first Principles and that's where you know, you had other things like Docker, swarm esos, etcetera and we said community, that's going to be the way to go because it is just so powerful and it is, you know, at the end of the day, what we all do is infrastructure. But what we saw was that containers optimizing for the developer, they were optimizing for the people that really build applications, deliver value to all of their and customers. And that is what made us see that even though the initially we only saw stateless applications state will was going to happen because there's just so much momentum behind it And the writing for us at least was on the wall. And that's how we started off on this journey in 2017. >>What are the unique nuances and differences really in terms of protecting containers from a, from a technical standpoint, what what's different? >>So there are a couple of subtle things. Right again, the jokers, you know, I say, is that I'm a recovering infrastructure person have always worked in infrastructure systems in the past and recovering them. But in this case we really had to flip things around right. I've come at it from the cloud disks volumes. VMS perspective, in this case to do the right thing by the customer needed a clean slate approach of coming out from the application down. So what we look at is what does the application look like? And that means protecting, not just the stuff that sits on disk, what your secrets in networking information, all those hundreds of pieces that make up a cloud native application and that involves scale challenges, work, visualisation challenges for admins, KPI So all of that shifts in a very dramatic way. >>So Danny, I mean typically VM you guys haven't done a ton of acquisitions, uh, you've grown organically. So now you, you, you poppin cast in, what does that mean for you from a platform perspective? You know, IBM has this term blue washing when they buy a company did you green wash cast and how did that all work? And again, what does what does it mean from the, from the platform perspective? >>Well, so our platform is designed for this type of integration and the first type of integration we do with any of our technologies because we do have native technologies, if you think about what we do being back up for AWS for Azure, for G C p, we have backup for Acropolis Hyper Visor. These are all native purpose built solutions for those environments and we integrate with what we call being platform services. And one of the first steps that we do of course is we take the data from those native solutions and send it into the repository and the benefit that you get from that is that you have this portable, self describing format that you can move around the vein platform. And so the platform was already designed for this Now. We already showed this at demon. You saw this on the main stage where we have this integration at a data level but it goes beyond that beam platform services allows us to do not just day one operations, but day two operations. Think about um updating the components of those infrastructures or those software components that also allows reporting. So for example you can report on what is protected, what's not protected. So the platform was already designed for this integration model. But the one thing I want to stress is we will always have that stand alone product for kubernetes for uh you know, for the container world. And the reason for that is the administrator for Kubernetes wants their own purpose build solution. They want it running on kubernetes. They want to protect the uniqueness of their infrastructure. If you think about a lot of the container based systems there, They're using structured data. Non structured data. Sure. But they're also using object based storage. They're using message queues. And so they have their nuances. And we want to maintain that in a stand alone product but integrated back into the Corvin platform. >>So we do these we have a data partner called GTR Enterprise Technology Research. They do these quarterly surveys and and they have this metric called net score is a measure of spending momentum and for the last, I don't know, 8, 10, 12 quarters the big four have been robotic process automation. That's hot space. Cloud obviously is hot and then A I of course. And but containers and container orchestration right up there. Those are the Big four that outshine everything else, even things like security and other infrastructure etcetera. So that's good. I mean you guys skating to the puck back in 2015 rush, you've made some announcements and I'm and I'm wondering sort of how they fit into the trends in the industry. Uh, what what's, what's significant about those announcements and you know, what's new that we need to know about. >>Sure. So let me take that one day. So we've made a couple of big interesting announcement. The most recent one of those was four dot release after casting by women platform, right? We call it kitten and right. We've known rate since a couple of weeks colonial pipeline ransom. Where has been in the news in the US gas prices are being driven up because of that. And that's really what we're seeing from customers where we are >>seeing this >>increase in communities adoption today. We have customers from the world's largest banks all the way to weakly connected cruise ships that one could burn. It is on them. People's data is precious. People are running a large fleet of notes for communities, large number of clusters. So what we said is how do you protect against these malicious attacks that want to lock people out? How do you bring in mutability so that even someone with keys to the kingdom can't go compromise your backups and restores, right? So this echoes a lot of what we hear from customers and what we hear about in the news so well protected that. But we still help through to some of the original vision behind cast. And that is, it's not just saying, hey, I give you ransomware protection. We'll do it in such an easy way. The admin barely notices. This new feature has been turned on if they wanted Do it in a way that gives them choice right. If you're running in a public cloud, if you're running at the edge you have choice of infrastructure available to you and do it in a way that you have 100% automation when you have 100 clusters when you deploy on ships, right, you're not going to be able to have we spoke things. So how do you hook into CHED pipelines and make the job of the admin easier? Is what we focused on in that last >>night. And and that's because you're basically doing this at the point of writing code and it's essentially infrastructure as code. We always talk about, you know, you want to you don't want to bolt on data protection as an afterthought, but that's what we've done forever. Uh This you can't >>so in fact I would say step before that day, right are the most leading customers we work with. Right to light up one of the U. S. Government's largest contractors. Um Hey do this before the first line of code is written right there on the scalp cloud as an example. But with the whole shift left that we all hear the cube talks a lot about. We see at this point where as you bring up infrastructure, you bring up a complete development environment, a complete test environment. And within that you want to deploy security, you want to deploy backup your to deploy protection at day zero before the developer in so it's the first line of cordon. So you protected every step of the journey while trying to bolt it on the sound. Seemingly yes, I stitched together a few pieces of technology but it fundamentally impacts how we're going to build the next generation of secure applications >>Danny, I think I heard you say or announced that this is going to be integrated into Wien backup and replication. Um can you explain what that took? Why? That's important. >>Yeah. So the the timeline on this and when we do integrations from these native solutions into the core platform, typically it begins with the data integration, in other words, the data being collected by the backup tool is sent to a repository and that gives us all the benefits of course of things like instant recovery and leveraging, de doop storage appliances and all of that step to typically is around day to operations, things like pushing out updates to that native solutions. So if you look at what we're doing with the backup for AWS and Azure, we can deploy the components, we can deploy the data proxies and data movers. And then lastly there's also a reporting aspect to this because we want to centralize the visibility for the organization across everywhere. So if your policy says hey I need two weeks of backups and after two weeks and I need weekly backups for X amount of time. This gives you the ability to see and manage across the organization. So what we've demonstrated already is this data level integration between the two platforms and we expect this to continue to go deeper and deeper as we move forward. The interesting thing right now is that the containers team often is different than the standard data center I. T. Team but we are quickly seeing the merge and I think the speed of that merging will also impact how quickly we integrate them within our platform. >>Well I mean obviously you see this for cloud developers and now you're bringing this to any developers and you know, if I'm a developer and I'm living in an insurance company, I've been, you know, writing COBOL code for a while, I want to be signed me up. I want to get trained on this, right? Because it's gonna I'm gonna become more valuable. So this is this is where the industry is headed. You guys talk about modern data protection. I wondered if you could you could paint a picture for us of sort of what what this new world of application development and deployment and and data protection looks like and how it's different from the old world. >>Mhm. So I think that if you mentioned the most important word, which is developer, they come first, they are the decision makers in this environment, the other people that have the most bull and rightly so. Oh, so I think that's the biggest thing at the cultural level that is, developers are saying this is what we want and this is what we need to get the job done, we want to move quickly. So some of the things are let's not slow them down. Let's enable them, let's give them any P I to work with. Right? No. Where in bulk of production, use will be api based versus EY base. Let's transparently integrate into the environment. So therefore protection for security, they need zero lines have changed code. Mm So those are some of the ways we approach things. Now when you go look at the requirements of the developers, they said I have a Ci cd pipeline to integrate into that. I have a development pipeline to integrate into that. I deploy across multiple clouds sometimes. Can you integrate into that and work seamlessly across all those environments? And we see those category of us coming up over and over again from people. >>So the developer rights once and it doesn't have to worry about where it's running. Uh it's got the right security, there are a protection and those policies go with it, so that's that's definitely a different world. Um Okay, last question. Uh maybe you guys could each give your opinion on sort of where we're headed, uh what we can expect from the the acquisition, the the integration, what should we look forward to and what should we pay attention to? >>Well, the one obvious thing that you're going to see is tremendous growth on the company's side and that's because Kubernetes is taking off cloud is taking off um SaAS is taking off and so there's obvious growth there. And one of the things that were clearly doing is um we're leveraging the power of of, you know, a few 1000 sales people to bring this out to market. Um, and so there is emerging of of sales and marketing activities and leveraging that scale. But what you shouldn't expect to see anything different on is this obsessive focus on the product, on quality, on making sure that we're highly differentiated that we have a product that the company that our customers and companies actually need no garage. >>Yeah. So I'll agree with everything down, he said. But a couple of things. Excite me a lot. Dave we've been roughly eight months or so since acquisition and I particularly love how last what in this quarter have gone in terms of how we focuses on solving customer problems. All right. So we'll always have that independent support for a cloud date of customers, but I'm excited about not just working with the broadest side of customers and as we scale the team that's going to happen, but providing a bridge to all the folks that grew up in the virtualization world, right? Grew up in the physical wall of physical service, etcetera and saying, how do we make it easy for you to come over to this new container Ization world? What is the on ramps bridging that gap serving as the on ramp? And we're doing a lot of work there from the product integration and independent product features that just make it easy. Right? And we're already seeing feel very good feedback for that from the field right now. >>I really like your position. I just dropped my quarterly cloud update. I focused, I look at the Big Four, the Big Four last year, spent $100 billion on Capex. And I always say that is a gift to companies like yours because you can be that connection point between the virtualization crowd, the on prem cloud, any cloud. Eventually we'll be, we'll be more than just talking about the Edge will actually be out there, you know, doing real work. Uh, and I just see great times ahead for you guys. So thanks so much for coming on the cube explaining this really exciting new area. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you so much. >>Thank you everybody for watching this day. Volonte for the Cube and our continuous coverage of the mon 2021, the virtual edition. Keep it right there. >>Mm mm mm

(upbeat music) >> 2020 was the most unpredictable year of our lives, a forced shutdown of global economies left everyone have the conclusion that the tech industry spending would decline and of course it did, but you'd hardly know it if you watch the stock market and the momentum of several well-positioned companies. Those firms that had products and services that catered to the pivot to work from home, SAS based solutions were focused on business resiliency and cloud saw huge growth. The forced match to digital turned a buzzword into reality overnight, where if you weren't a digital business, you were out of business. And one of the companies participating in that growth trend was Veeam. Veeam virtual is scheduled to take place on May 25th and 26th. And it's one of our favorite physical events and the Cube will be there again as a virtual participant. One of our traditions prior to VeeamON has always been to bring in an executive into the Cube and talk not only about what to expect at the show, but what's happening in the market. And with me is many times Cube alum Danny Allan is the chief technology officer at Veeam. Danny welcome is always great to see you. >> I am delighted to be here again. Disappointed it's virtual, but excited to talk with you. >> Yeah, me too. You know, it's coming. It's getting jabbed but you know, you look at the surprises here. I mean, look at the chip shortage, you know everybody thought, Oh, well stop ordering chips. I mean furniture, et cetera, cars. And it's just kind of crazy. What was your expectation going into the pandemic and what did you actually see looking back? >> Well, it's funny, you never know what's going to happen. And for the first few weeks I would say there's a lot of disruption because all of a sudden you have people who've been going into an office for a long time, working from home and you know, from an R&D perspective at Veeam those people weren't used to working from home. So there's a lot of uncertainty I'll say for the first three or four weeks but what very quickly picked up was the opportunity. I'll say to focus more specifically on delivering things for our customers. And one of the things obviously that just exploded was use of digital technologies like Slack and Microsoft teams. And as you say, Veeam was well positioned to help customers as they move towards this new normal, as they say. >> So what were some of the growth vectors that you guys saw specifically that were helping your customers going to get get through this time? >> Yeah well, people always associate Veeam with knowing data protection for the virtual environment but two things really stood out last year as our emerging markets. One was Office365, and I think that's due to the uptake of Microsoft teams. I mean, if you look at the Microsoft results, you can see that people are doing SaaS. And we were very well positioned to take advantage of that. Help customers move towards collaborating online. So that was a huge growth vector for us. And the second one was cloud. We had more data moving to cloud than ever before in Veeam history. And that continues on into 2021. >> You guys, well, yeah, let's talk more about that set SAS piece of your business. You were very early on in terms of SAS data protection. You kind of had to educate the market. People are like, well, why do I need to back up my SAS doesn't the cloud provider do that? And then you sort of you had to educate, so it was you were early and but it's really paid off. Maybe talk about how that trend has benefited some of your customers. >> Yeah. So if you go back four years, we didn't even have data protection for Office365. And over the last four years, we've emerged into the market leader the largest in protection for Office365. And as you say, it was about education. Early on people knew that they needed to protect exchange when they ran it on premises. And when they first went to the cloud there was this expectation of, Hey Microsoft or my provider will do that for me. And very quickly they realized that's not the case and there's still the same threats. It might not be hardware failure, but certainly misconfiguration or deleted items or ransomware in 2021, sorry, 2020 was massive. And so we do data protection for Exchange, for SharePoint online, for one drive, and most recently for Microsoft teams. And so that data protection obviously helps organizations as they adopt Office365 and SaaS technologies. >> I sent him my last breaking analysis. When you look at the ETR data, Veeam has been really steady. You know, some competitors spike up and come down, others, you know, maybe aren't doing so well or the larger established players don't have as much momentum. It just seems like Veeam even though you cross the billion dollar revenue mark, you've been able to keep that spending momentum up. And I think it's, I would observe it's a function of your ability to identify that the waves and ride those waves and anticipate them. We just talked about SAS, talked about virtualization. You were there cloud, we'll talk about that more as well, plus your execution. It seems like since the acquisition by insight you guys have continued to execute. I wonder if you could help the audience understand how do you think about the phases that Veeam has gone through in its ascendancy and where you're headed? >> Yeah. And so I look at it as three things, it's having the right product, but it's not just enough to have the right product, the right product it's the right timing and it's the right execution. So if you think about where Veeam started, it was all in data protection for vSphere, for the hypervisor. And that was right at the time when VMware was taking off and the modernized data center was being virtualized. And so that helped us grow, I'll say into a $600 million company, but then about four years ago, we see the ascendancy of SaaS and specifically Office365. And so, you know, we weren't first to market but I would argue the timing with the best product, with the right execution has turned that into a massive a very significant contribution to our bottom line. And then actually the third wave through 2020 is the adoption of cloud. We moved last year, 242 petabytes into cloud storage and already in the first quarter of 2021, we've moved to 100 petabytes. So there's this massive adoption or migration of data into the cloud. And Veeam has been positioned with the right product, at the right time, with the right execution, to take advantage of that. >> So I wonder if you could help us quantify that IDC data you know, the IDC did a good job quantifying the market. Maybe you could share with us sort of your position there, maybe some of the growth that we're seeing. Can you add some color to that? >> Yeah. We have some very exciting results from the recent IDC report. So in the second half of 2020, we saw 17.9% year over year growth in our revenue. That was actually triple the closest competitor. And our sequential growth was over 21%. So massive growth and all of that is in the second half of the year, 563 million in revenue. So over a billion dollar company. So these aren't just, you know, 20% growth on small numbers. This is on a very significant number. And we see that continuing forward, we'll be announcing some things I'm sure at VMR coming up in a few weeks here, but that trend continues. And again, it's the right product, right time, with the right execution. >> Cloud continues to roll on. You're seeing, you know, solid weather. If you add them all up the big four 30 plus percent growth you're seeing Azure, even higher growth. You know, AWS is huge, Google growing, Google cloud, probably in the 60 to 70% range. So cloud still hot, it's kind of gone mainstream but there's still feels like there's a long way to go there. What's happening in cloud? You guys, again, leaning in, riding that wave. What can you tell us? >> We are leaning in, you're going to see some things coming up at Veeam related to that. But two things I would say, one is we're in the marketplace of all three of the major hyperscalers. So there's a Veeam backup for AWS, Veeam backup for Azure, and a Veeam backup for GCP. And not only is there products that are purpose-built for those clouds in the marketplace, all three of them have integrations to the core Veeam platform. And so this isn't just standalone products while it is in the marketplace, it's integrated into the full strategy around modern data protection for the organizations. And so I am thrilled about some of the things that we're going to be showing in there but we're leaning in very closely with those. We think we're in early days, like I say maybe first, second year, and it will be the next decade as they truly emerge into their dominant position. But even more than cloud if you asked me what I get excited about looking forward certainly cloud adoption is massive, but Kubernetes, that's what's enabling some of the models of both on-prem and cloud hosted. And we're clearly doing some things there as well. >> So I'm glad you brought that up because I think the first time I ever sort of stumbled into a company that was actually doing data protection for containers was out of a VeeamON event. It was one of your exhibitors. And I was like, Hmm, that's an interesting name. And yeah, of course he ended up buying the company. But so, you know, it's funny, right? Because containers have been around forever. And then when you started to see Kubernetes come to for, containers are really ephemeral they really didn't, you know, they weren't persistent but they didn't have state, but that's changing. I wonder if you could give us your perspective as to how you're thinking about that whole space. >> I truly believe that the third big wave of technology transformation, the first was around physical systems and mainframes and things. And then we went into the virtualized era. I think that the third world is not the cloud. I actually think it is containers. Now why containers? Because as you mentioned, Dave, they're a femoral, they're designed for the world of consumption. Everything else is designed for you, install it. And then you build to the high watermark. The whole thing about containers is that they're a femoral and they're built for the consumption model. The other thing about containers is that they're highly portable. So you can run it on premises with OpenShift but then you can move it to GKE or HKS or EKS or any of the big cloud platforms. So it definitely aligns with organization's desire to modernize and to choose the infrastructure of best choice. Now, at the same time, the reason why they haven't taken off I would argue as quickly as they could have is because they've been really complex, in early days the complexity of containers was very difficult, but the model, the platform or ecosystem is evolving, they are becoming more simple. And what is happening is IT operations teams are now considering the developer, their customer and they're building self-service models for the developers to be more productive. So I think of this as platform apps and certainly backup and security is a part of this but it is moving and we're seeing traction actually faster than it would have predicted in early 2020. >> Yeah. We've been putting forth this vision of a layer that abstracts the complexity of the underlying clouds whether it's on prem, across clouds, eventually the edge and containers are linchpin to enabling that. Let's talk about VeeamON 2021. Show us a little leg, give us a preview. >> So we always come with the excitement and we always come with showing a sneak peek of what's to come. So certainly we're going to celebrate some of the big successes. We brought version 11 to market earlier this year that had security capabilities around ransomware type, continuous data protection it at a whole lot of things. So we're going to celebrate some of the products have already recently launched but we're also going to give a sneak peek of what's coming over 2021. Now, if you ask me what that is, we talk an awful lot about cloud. So you should expect to see things around Veeam backup for AWS and Azure and GCP. You should expect to see things around our Kubernetes data protection with our casting Cape 10 product, you should expect to see evolution of capabilities with our SaaS data protection with Office365. So we're going to give a sneak peek of lots of things to come. And as always, we bring lots of innovation to the market. It's not just another checkbox theme has always said, how can we do it differently? How can we do a better? And then we're going to show that to our customers at VeeamON. >> Well, we're always super excited to participate in the Veeam community. We've always had a lot of fun. They're great events. Yes, it's virtual, but you guys always have an interesting spin on things and make it fun. It's May 25th and 26th. It starts at 9:00 AM Eastern time. You go to Veeam V-E-E-A-M.com and sign up, make sure you do that and check out all the content. The Cube of course will be there. I will be interviewing executives, customers, partners. There's tons of content for practitioners. And, you know, as always you guys got the great demos and always a few surprises. So Danny, really looking forward to that and really appreciate your time and the Cube today. >> Thank you, Dave. >> All right. And thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube. Again, May 25th and 26th 9:00 AM. Eastern time, go to veeam.com and sign up. We'll see you there. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Application performance management AKA APM, you know it's been around since the days of the mainframe. Now, as systems' architectures became more complex, the technology evolved to accommodate client-server, web-tier architectures, mobile and now of course, cloud-based systems. A spate of vendors have emerged to solve the sticky problems associated with ensuring consistent and predictable user experiences. The market has grown, I mean it's decent size, it's about $5 billion globally. It's growing at a consistent 10% CAGR. It's got a variety of established companies and new entrants that are attacking this space. Hi everyone, welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. My name is Dave Vellante and today, we welcome back ETR's Erik Bradley, who was the chief engagement strategist at Aptiviti which is the holding company of our data partner, ETR. Erik, my friend, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on and spending some time with us. >> Oh, always enjoy it Dave. Great to see you too and I'm just glad I got some fresh material for ya. >> As always, you have fresh data. Now, Erik just recently hosted an ETR VENN session and on this particular topic, APM. Now VENNs are an open round table, they're exclusively available to ETR's clients and what we do is we sometimes come in theCUBE and we summarize those sessions in our Breaking Analysis. Now Erik, yo let's start with a summary slide here, guys, if you could bring that up, we just want to make a couple of points and... So as I said Erik, I mean this started back, you know in the System/390 days. Now, distributed systems and cloud of course create a lot more complexity, you got data that's really fragmented. You got user data, you got application data, you have infrastructure data and it gets complicated and you've got guys in lab coats having to come in and diagnose these stuff, lot of tribal knowledge. What are you seeing in the space? >> Well yeah, you know to start back, you know it's funny when the panel I hosted, one of the guys even brought up Tivoli, how long ago that was right? Then of course you get, you know you have the solar winds and you had people like that trying to just kind of monitor your network. You know what we've heard a lot about now is infrastructure has really become code-based. So when that happens, you really start wondering to yourself the lines are blurring between infrastructure and application because at the end of the day, what you're really monitoring is code. So it has gotten incredibly complex, you have OnPrem, you have hybrid, you have multi-cloud approach so it has gotten extremely complex and there's also now a third wave of next-gen vendors getting involved in the mix as well. As you're aware, New Relic and Datadog, obviously, Splunk has been in logging and monitoring for a long time. You also had some of the traditional players throw their hat in the ring through acquisition, that you know AppDynamics gobbled up by Cisco and obviously Splunk trying to continue to reinvent themselves a little bit by SignalFx. So it is a very crowded, complex space, it is a complicated problem but it's also a problem that needs to be solved. You know, we were looking at, you said in your intro about, it's only about a $5 billion market right now but there's been a lot of data out there from industry analysts saying that that's going to grow quite handsomely over the next five years and it could get up to 13, 14, 15 billion. And when I asked my panel about that, I had one gentleman say without a doubt, they see the next 10 years that spending in this space will continue. And when you pry and ask why, they simply state that digital transformation is not going to stop, it's marching forward, whether anyone likes it or not and as it does, monitoring is going to be critical, it's only going to increase and increase and increase. So right now, to your point, it's a small market but it's a growing market and there's a lot of entrance in there and their whole goal is to reduce this complexity that you're talking about. >> Now, one of the things we heard from the panel, guys if you bring up that same slide again, you know the third point on that slide was what's closely tied to digital transformation. You heard a number of individuals say, "Look, your digital business is critical, it's all about monitoring your applications and your data and your infrastructure. And we heard a lot that they wanted a, a single pane of glass and you made a number of points about the market. What are your thoughts on both the digital transformation, maybe the COVID acceleration of that mandate and that notion of a single pane of glass, is that aspirational or is it, in your view, something that is actually technically feasible? >> Not only is it technically feasible, it has to happen. It's going to be demanded by the large enterprise, they can't continue to monitor hundreds and hundreds of applications. They need something that not only can give them observability through their entire stack, but they need to be able to view it in one way, there's enough fatigue in monitoring and logging. And actually it goes even further than one pane of glass, they're demanding that these systems can now actually employ machine learning algorithms to be proactive. It's not enough to just say, "Okay, I observed this," you have to let me know that this may happen in the future and what to do about it. So not only is it feasible, it's something that is being demanded by the end-user market and the players that survive are the ones that already have that in their roadmap. >> Now, as we always like to do in these sessions, we're going to bring up some ETR data and we like to position the companies. So what we do is, we're going to bring up some of the pure players, pure-play companies and you can see them on this slide. But Erik, and when we talk about companies in this space, they are well over a dozen. It's just again for reference, you know it's Cisco with AppD, you mentioned that before Dynatrace is one of the leaders, New Relic has been around for awhile and is doing well, Splunk, Datadog. Now of course, and we're not showing them here, AWS, Microsoft and Google cause they just sort of, they pollute the chart. But so I want to start with the guys that are on this view and maybe talk about a few. Elastic came up a lot, certainly AppD came up a little, Dynatrace was obviously mentioned, especially in large organizations. Lot of conversations about New Relic. So let's go through them. Where do you want to start here? >> Yeah there's a lot to go through and we did spend the majority of the panel talking about the individual players, the differences between them and also what we thought their longer term prospects were but yeah, we'll go through each one. I think maybe to start with, let's go back in time a little bit, right? Cisco is a wonderful acquirer, they do a great job at M&A. A lot of companies will acquire something and let it die on the vine. Cisco has proven recently that they are reinventing themselves as a full platform play, whether that be through, you know, kind of, their networking reach or whether it be through the security. And AppDynamics is one of those that actually kind of gives you a little bit of both with being able to monitor. It is a great play for people that are already involved with Cisco. Now, I don't think you're going to see too many people that are non-Cisco customers run out and buy it. There you're going to see some of them, maybe the pure plays or one of my guests called the third wave of vendors. And that third wave is really about a Datadog and a New Relic. Let's talk about Datadog first. >> Yeah let's bring that back up guys, if you would. Now let me just, sorry to interrupt you Erik (indistinct) The vertical axis here is net score, that's the ETR's primary metric, and that's an indication of spending velocity, the higher, the better. And on the horizontal axis is market share. Now we're showing the July data, the October data is in the field, you know once ETR releases that to its clients, then we'll share that with you. But the first thing that jumps out at me is other than Elastic Erik, I mean, I'm not blown away by the spending momentum in this space but let's talk about that and then some of your thoughts on the specific vendors. >> Yeah, you know I'll go back because you asked a little bit about the digital transformation, I don't think I answered it fully. So to your comment about maybe not being impressed with the spend, I think this is one where the spend is going to come, kind of as a laggard because you're not going to rush out and go buy the software to monitor until you've built out the, what needs to be monitored. So as we're seeing this increase in the digital transformation, and I think you and I had a conversation in the past, but when COVID first hit and I did a series of panels, we had one person say that this virus is going to increase digital transformation by five to 10 years. Now that was an amazing statement. Basically, if you were on the fence, if you didn't, if you weren't already heading down to digital transformation, you needed to play catch up quickly. So now that you are doing that right, now that you're moving from OnPrem to a multicloud or a hybrid cloud environment, you have to get observability, you have to get monitoring into it. So now these players start to play catch up and this is where you're going to see the proof of concepts and you're going to see people trying to decide which direction they're going to take their company. Now back to the actual vendors. I believe that there is some differentiation, right? So we'll just take, for instance, Splunk. Splunk is obviously probably the biggest boy on the block when it comes to just straight up logging and monitoring. They've leveraged that big boy position to really, you know, add some costs, kind of intimidate their customers they've been compared in the past of the type of things that Oracle used to do from their cost perspective. And that's opened up some new competition, Datadog is one of those. According to my panel, Datadog is viewed more for logging and monitoring than it is truly full end-to-end observability throughout your entire network and application system. So that is one of the areas that's there. Now, to stay on those two names for a quick second, Splunk obviously has some holes in what they're trying to offer, they went out and tried to buy SignalFx to fill one of those holes. Now according to my panel again, did a great job filling that hole, problem is if you have a boat with three holes, you can't put your fingers everywhere. So they think, hey listen, Splunk scrape, they're going to keep the company they have and I know that we can talk a little bit more about valuations and the equity side later, but I think it's very clear that their sales and revenue are trending flat to down, whereas some of these other names still have great acceleration in their sales. So Splunk and Datadog both are really facing pressure from Elastic or generally just open-source. >> I was struck by the panel and how much emphasis they, how much complaining they did about Splunk pricing. Generally, I feel like hey, if your price is too high is the biggest objection, that's actually not a bad thing for a company but the way they kept hitting on it and said, "Hey, we're actively looking for alternatives" and Datadog was one of those and given the momentum that Datadog has, I don't think that that's necessarily a positive. But you know Splunk has a lot of loyal customers but you know to your point if you go back to the slide, Elastic came up very, very strong and they are head and shoulders from a spending momentum above the rest of the crowd here. >> Right. And you know, so you're right. If the only problem with a vendor or a technology is cost, usually you live with it because that means it's giving you what you need. So okay, it's expensive but it's also the best in breed and that's where Splunk has been for a very long time. And I think they're resting on their laurels knowing that. Enter Elastic and you say to these guys, the panel, I asked them, well okay, you can make Elastic work but is it truly a viable alternative from a technology standpoint? And the answer to that was not only is it viable, it's half the price. So if you can bring something in that can do the job the same and it's half the cost, it's really difficult not to at least try. And I had one of the other gentlemen who was a Datadog customer said, "Listen, we love Datadog, we were a huge customer and then I started getting enormous bills and I just switched over to open-source, I switched to Elastic, I switched to Kibana, I switched to Kafka and I can do this search myself. Now the difference is not every enterprise has the human skillset to do so and I'm not saying Splunk's going to turn around to disappear tomorrow, not even close. Because there is a difference in spending that money with the vendor or spending that money developing the human skillset to use open-source. But the bigger backdrop here is there are more alternatives than there used to be, there's more competition and the space is getting very crowded. >> Yeah, comment on open-source. I mean open-source is free like a puppy. But the thing about that, and we had one of the panelists was a very senior consultant, exclusively work with very large companies, he told a story about one of the companies years ago, he came in to solve a problem. The problem was they had 70% availability and then they had no visibility on their infrastructure and there's really no great, no good monitor, they get them up to whatever, five nines or two, three nines or wherever they got them to, but dramatic improvement. And so, but he said, "Look it, I work with companies with billions of dollars, $3 billion IT budgets so they don't rely on open-source for this stuff, they're happy to spend." But there's a huge market, particularly in the mid size where we heard that New Relic plays in a big way, it might be more receptive to open-source. >> Couple of great points there Dave, honestly. I'm going to jump over to the use case that was given by that person who was in a healthcare role. And essentially the part I didn't write into my summary was that his CEO was two days away from shutting down the entire business because he was so frustrated that he had no observability and Dynatrace was the one that was able to step in and fix that. And this gentleman did say that the majority of the companies that he does work with which are all in the Fortune 100, Dynatrace has a stranglehold in that spot. So that's really interesting to note. Now on the flip side, when pushed a little bit more later in the panel, he said, "Dynatrace is sort of resting on its laurels from a product roadmap standpoint and that's going to open up the possibility of a New Relic getting in," a transition to New Relic as you mentioned on their small to medium sized business. They recently launched a new pricing strategy which is basically a free version to get you involved to kind of get their hooks into you and see if you can work it out. And basically what they're trying to do there I think is, you know, make up for their lack of marketing. As you saw the panel that we spoke about said, "New Relic's technology is fantastic." They have the ability to provide a single pane of glass which is the Holy Grail in this space and they have the ability to provide machine learning and proactive type of ability which again are the two things that all of the end-users are asking for. The problem is that most people might not be aware of it because New Relic doesn't have as flashy a marketing department, they don't have the dollars as much as the others to go out there and compete with the Splunk and Dynatrace and Cisco. But from a roadmap perspective, it was almost unanimous that our panel agreed, New Relic is by far, one of the leaders from a functionality standpoint. >> Yeah, if you guys bring that slide up one more time, the X Y. I mean, I look at where New Relic is and I'm like wow, I'm surprised. I mean this company, I mean they were the hot company for awhile and I think still have the capability. You're talking about the technology. NRDB, New Relic database is like, it kicks ass. In fact, you know Erik, somebody brought up in the panel that they thought that snowflake could compete in this market because essentially Snowflake's positioning is this data cloud. But you know, here's New Relic, they have a purpose-built database specifically for monitoring an APM so you would think that with that technology, they could really make some moves. And then I just want to bring in two other companies to the mix here. Honeycomb who I think even their founder and former CEO now CTO, she coined the term I believe, observability. And there's another company that is run by Jeremy Burton, company's called Observe, okay (indistinct) and it's funded by the Silicon Valley Mafia. So that's going to be an interesting one to watch, they're coming out, well they're out of stealth but they're doing a launch on October 7th. So I think those are two companies that could disrupt this space and I would expect to see, as you said, it's a latent momentum in net score from a dataset standpoint because people are trying to plug the holes cause of COVID, you know security, work from home, that pivot and now it's really on to digital transformation and that's where APM really comes in. >> It really does and again, it comes back to that comment someone made a long time ago that everything's becoming code as software eats the world and everything becomes code, you need the ability to kind of monitor that code, enter Honeycomb. And as you know, we have two different studies at ETR, one of them is for emerging technology. Honeycomb is in our emerging technology study that's more of a private series B to series E round stage whereas our main study is for companies that are pre IPO or already public. But Honeycomb is a little bit different in my opinion, that they're focused very much so on the developers or the software engineers. They're a very microservices oriented type of product whereas some of the other ones may have started as an infrastructure monitoring and then kind of work their way backward into application. But Honeycomb certainly needs to be observed and it's funny when you talk about that, the one thing I think is, "Oh great, more players." The crowded space gets even more crowded. And I think well you know, kind of foreshadowing something you and I will be speaking about in a little bit but there's a lot of players in this space and there's a lot of other possible interest in there. You mentioned Snowflake. It actually wasn't brought up from our panelists, it was a question that came from one of my clients that said, "Hey, I'm curious, can snowflake play in this space?" And the panel thought about it for a second and said, "There's absolutely no reason why they can't, they most certainly can." And we all know the cash they have so I mean the easiest way to play in that would maybe be to buy some of the technology, integrate it in and yeah, they have that portability. And if I can real quickly, they've just, one of the things that came out that was so important about this, we haven't spoken about the vendors is, is the public cloud. The public cloud offers this. They offer monitoring, they'll give it to you for free. If I'm going to run Kubernetes at Google, I'm going to get the monitoring for free which is super nice, right? But if I have an enterprise that has multicloud or hybrid cloud, and I'm working outside of that public cloud silo, it doesn't work. This is the exact conversation you and I had about Snowflake. AWS Redshift's fantastic but it doesn't work outside of AWS. So if every one of our enterprises continues on the digital transformation, they need portability. They have to be able to go across any architecture structure and that's why these independent providers are really starting to gain steam when you would think they could never compete with the public cloud. >> Yeah man, that's a great point. And we've talked about this in the context of Snowflake that who are you going to trust with your multi-cloud strategy? Are you going to trust AWS? Are you going to trust Google? Yeah, okay, they got Anthos but we kind of know why they're taking that posture. Microsoft, look, I'm probably going to partner with somebody who can, who's maybe I have a relationship with them with my OnPrem and that is really sort of agnostic to the various clouds so I'm glad you brought that up. And you know the point you're making about Honeycomb is a good one and I'll add that, again, it gets more complex with microservices and containers, that's spinning them up, spinning them down. Sometimes these, first of all, these microservices, sometimes aren't that micro and second of all, you're sometimes talking about hundreds of thousands of containers so it's a really increasingly complex environment. All right. What I want to do is-- >> You didn't even touch on serverless, we'll do that some other day. >> Oh, yeah, I mean absolutely. A hundred percent, right. So, now let's take a look at some of the valuations, guys if you bring that up for me. So I put this little chart together and it's always instructive. Now I like to, simple guy Erik so I like to... So you see, the company, I take a trailing 12-month revenue and then the market cap as of 9/25. And then just a simple revenue multiple, just to get a sense, it's not a hardcore valuation model but it's interesting and there usually is a correlation to the growth rate, I just pulled that off the latest quarterly growth rate. I mean, look at Datadog. I mean that's like Snowflake pre IPO valuations. I mean you're really, right around there with smaller revenue, smaller growth rate, Snowflakes up in the whatever 120% range but well eye-popping. You know the same valuation as Splunk, I mean that's just amazing. What do you make of this data? >> Well, you know I was an equity analyst for almost 15 years on the Wall Street side. So the, my first caveat is a trailing revenue to the multiple is not always the same because people are looking at what the forward expected revenue will be but I actually do see the correlation here. And when you brought this up, my eyes popped open. I do not understand why Datadog has a 27 billion market cap on a trailing 350 million in revenue. I just don't know if their forward looking growth really warrants that and at the same time, then you look at a Splunk, right? I mean they have two and a half billion in revenue but their growth rate's down and truthfully, when I see a -5% growth rate, I don't know why you weren't at 12% sales either. I would argue that there's quite a few names on here that could be in for a reckoning, ETR actually as far back as a year ago caught this in our data and said, "Hey, there's some inflection points here and I think investors need to pay attention to them." And since we came out with the July report, a lot of these names we're talking about, despite insane valuations in the equity markets are flat to down. And, you know I do think that, hey if they stay stagnant and their technology is right but it's a crowded space, I think we're really leading to the point where as one of my panelists said, this industry is ripe for consolidation. These players are not all going to be here in 12 months, it's that simple. >> Yeah and by the way, thank you for mentioning that as a former equity analyst, you were right (indistinct) 12 months, it's kind of the rear-view mirror. But I'll tell you, two reasons why I do that. One is, I put the growth rate in there so you can pick your own growth rate and your own forward revenue. The other is it's really easy for me to get TTM off a Yahoo as opposed to >> Right exactly. >> And so truth be told. But, guys bring that back up one more time cause I want to make a point about New Relic. I mean I think they are potentially right for an M&A because they got great technology. Now remember Elliot Management is in there and when Elliot's is in there, stuff's going to happen. They're going to start cleaning house, they're going to really create changes, they don't just get in in a big way and sit back and watch, they are extremely active. And the New Relic, leader in this space, great technology, great heritage. So either they got to clean up and get that valuation back up maybe as you pointed out, little bit better marketing posture, et cetera or they get taken out. >> Yeah and let's think about the two things that coincide, right? You have one of the world's best activist funds get involved in Elliot Management. And as you said, they don't get involved to just sort of watch or observe as we're talking about here today, they are very active in trying to get some sort of a, you know, corporate action done. And at the same time, all of a sudden New Relic comes out with a new pricing model. They're trying to create a moat around the small to medium business, right? They're trying to grow their footprint. Now the great thing about getting involved in small to medium businesses, it starts off for free but you grow with them. So I don't think those two are a coincidence, let me just put it that way. I think that they're coming in, they're trying to entrench themselves in a new market and set themselves up for future growth and I truly believe that based on the product roadmap and the feedback we were getting from the end-users in my panel, New Relic has the ability to look across all architecture, it has the ability to provide a single pane of glass and it has the ability to incorporate machine learning for proactive response. Their roadmap is fantastic, they have an active manager inside as an investor, I don't think they're going to be around for much, much longer. And obviously that you look around and you wonder who the acquirers will be and it might be one of the major cloud players. >> Yeah that would be interesting. I mean it gives them a play in a multicloud world and either they're going to just use that for their own advantage or they will actually see that as an opportunity, we'll be itching to watch. Alright, anything we didn't cover that you want to touch on or give us your final thoughts, please Erik. >> You know I would also just sort of mention a little bit about Splunk. This is a company that has a tremendous amount of revenue, a tremendous installed customer base but many, many times we've seen it before and Oracle is the greatest example. They kind of forget about their customers and they don't treat them properly. And I can't tell you how many people I have mentioned to me said, "Hey when this all went down in the viral pandemic and I went to Splunk and I asked for a little bit of pricing flexibility, I asked for this, I asked for that and they just wouldn't give it to me." And I wrote an article once called (indistinct) never forget similar to an elephant. And when they come out the other side, they're going to find a way to replace them. And today I also wrote an article that it was our 200th interview and I entitled it, The Splunk Funk. And basically it's about all the alternatives that are now out there, not just open source, but other vendors, even the vulnerability management players like a Rapid7, like a Tenable are getting into this space now. Fortinet, which one guy called "Fortaeverything" is a company that's really expanding. So I would just really kind of caution some of those vendors out there that don't rest on your laurels, don't take your customers for granted because sooner or later, they're going to be in a position to bite the back. >> Well I'll say this about Splunk, I've been following the company since the early part of last decade and I've done a lot of Cube interviews at their shows. They do have a passionate, passionate customer base, they got the experts that run around with that crazy hat and I've seen Splunk killers emerge for the last decade and so... But I think your point is right. I mean they've, the SignalFx acquisition was something that, it was a hole to fill and it gets them into a subscription-based model, they're going through that transition now. But I think they have some real gravity with their customer base. So, all right, let me summarize. For years, the application monitoring and management, it's really relied on alerts, logs, traces and even what I call tribal knowledge. In that world of pre-distributed systems, that was fine, like I said a trace can tell you what was going on. But things have begotten much more complicated architecturally with cloud and mobile and they're really changing fast now. Erik mentioned serverless, we talked about containers. So, today it's much harder to understand the customer experience because it's difficult to get a full picture of the data. And what I mean by that is that the user data, the application data, the infrastructure data, they're all fragmented and the Holy Grail solution really takes all this disparate data, it ingests it, it transforms it. Connects the dots if you will, across clouds, Onprem and then it shapes it, brings in machine intelligence, really creating an organic systems view that can proactively tell you that there's a problem coming. And finally, nearly absolute Nirvana is doing this in a way that non-technical people are going to be able to understand the true user experience. You know in theory, this is going to allow organizations to remediate in 110th the time with much, much lower costs and that's going to be critical in this world of digital transformation. So thank you Erik, really appreciate you coming on today. >> Always enjoy it Dave, it's always great talking to you and hopefully we'll do it again soon. >> All right, I can't wait. And thank you everybody for watching this episode of theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Remember these episodes, they're all available on podcasts. We publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com so you got to check that out. And don't forget, go to etr.plus for all the survey action. Would appreciate if you kindly comment on my LinkedIn post or tweet me @dvellante or email at david.vellante@siliconangle.com This is Dave Vellante. Thanks so much to Erik Bradley, be well and we'll see you next time. (bouncy music)

(logo chiming) >> Presenter: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a cube conversation. >> Hi, welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. And I'm pleased to welcome back one of our cube alumni from Dell Technologies. Joining me right now is Jim Clancy, the SVP of Global Data Protection Solutions Dell. Jim, great to have you back on theCUBE. >> Hey, Lisa, thanks for having me. Looking forward to our conversation. >> Though we're nice. So we're very appropriately socially distance as you can tell California East Coast. So 2020 has been a quite a year, right? We're only about halfway through it, Jim. But some of the things that I noticed from Dell Technologies is these three big waves that Dell Technologies that we want to ride these in 2020. And those waves are Cloud, VMware, and Cyber Recovery. >> That's right. >> Talk to me about these three waves and what's happening with those currents in this pandemic time. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. So back in February we, we actually had Dave Volante had a video that we shared with our teams at FRS, which is the global sales organization meeting. And we were talking about some of the things that we're seeing from our customers and how they're picking up. And those are the key waves that our teams have been focused on. But most importantly, these are what our customers are asking us about. These are the things that are really important to them, that are allowing them to know modernize in, some of the challenges that that have really kind of taken off and gotten, quite frankly, worse in the current environment. So yeah, we, we kind of jumped on the wave that Dave kind of brought forward to us at FRS and now we've been riding those with our customers. And if you can imagine that they're pretty choppy with some of the change in the environment that we're in today, but they certainly allow someone like Dell DPS to be able to be really successful if you write them correctly. >> Alright, so let's break down those choppy waves right now from a cloud perspective. So many organizations in every industry globally, are living in a multicloud world, whether it's strategic, and some of it is or by acquisition. And they're running traditional workloads, they're running emerging workloads. How is cloud now even more important from a data protection perspective? And what is Dell Technologies doing to help them in this navigate this multicloud world? >> Yeah, well, I think a couple a couple of different things. First, is that before COVID, and before the pandemic, customers were obviously living in a multicloud world they were picking applications choosing. Is it easier, is it faster to deploy in the cloud. And now with with the situation that we're in, customers are accelerating their adoption. So if you look at some of the announcements that come out from like Microsoft. The Microsoft's cloud businesses is just exploding right now. And a lot of it has to do with our customers are not going back to the data center, they don't have access. And the world has changed that their focus so much on work from home, that the quickest way to get going is to adopt the cloud. And so we're seeing a massive uptick on that. It's good news for Dell Data Protection, because there's a couple of key things that happen. When customers take some of these applications and put them in the cloud. They certainly open themselves up for some challenges, or they certainly open up with a cost really takes off if they're not leveraging an efficient data protection solution. So the first, first and foremost customers are adopting and leveraging the cloud more and more. And then about I think the numbers around 70% of customers today are looking to optimize their cloud experience. So they want to use it more, but they definitely understand that they're spending a tremendous amount of dollars out there and they want to optimize it. So we've had an example with a customer that wanted to leverage the cloud more. But the challenge was the cost just wasn't working out for them. And 60% of that cost that they felt they needed to update was their backup and archive. And so we went in, worked with them talked about how we could optimize that environment, to the extent that we could cut their costs in half. So there's a there's definitely a need, customers are going to continue working and going to the cloud, but they need an optimized, efficient Data Protection Solution. And Dell is the only one that can deliver that. >> And speaking of cost for a second, let's pivot on that. Because these days, it seems like the financing for Data Protection Solutions is as important as protecting the data itself. So when your customers are coming to you guys say, hey help us out, we need to leverage out more but we need to do some cost effectively. What are some of the the flexible financing options or even incentives and offers that Dell Technologies is delivering to it's customers? >> Yes. So we've been offering a lot to our customers for years in terms of flexible financing, we have the best finance organization sales financing organization in the world which is our DFS group. And what we've been able to do is start to look at more about how can we offer a subscription pricing to our customers flex on demand. But then on top of that, is we announced another program, which allows customers to extend their payment terms, right? It allows them to, zero dollar finance. So as the customer are really kind of focused on preserving their cash. We are bringing to market solutions, not only with DFS, that makes it more flexible from a consumption standpoint. But we're also looking at how do we kind of bundle some of our solutions together. How do we become more aggressive and help our customers get through this because cash is king for a lot of our customers today. And if we can help them preserve that cash it gives them the flexibility, they're going to remember that. Right? They're going to, they're going to want to partner with us more, they're going to see that we're stepping up to help them get through this difficult time. So, flex on-demand subscription pricing, those are the big things that we're starting to see more and more from our customers and Dell is here to help them with stepping up and helping our customers when it comes to the financing. >> Then imagine that applies not just to the Cloud environment, but also the VMware environment. That's another wave. Talk to me a little bit more about that wave and how you're helping customers to be able to protect their VMware workloads across the entire VMware stack. >> Yeah, and just let me add one thing to, from a when I talk about the financing, it's, it's whether someone runs stuff on-prem or in the cloud. So I know you mentioned that it's it's flexible pricing options across on-prem or off-prem, it doesn't matter. For us, it's a multicloud world and wherever you want to run it, you want to have flexible consumption models. But the topic of VMware which is just an amazing opportunity that we're working together with VMware and the partnership could never be any stronger than it is today is that VMware is working and growing, in every one of our customer environments today. And as they grow, they really need a strong Data Protection Solution that's going to bring governance, that's going to have scale, that's going to have cyber, Cybersecurity on it, that's going to give them that flexibility to be able to protect these workloads. And VMware wants to continue to virtualize more and more workloads, databases. And to do that, you need to be able to say that you can protect them recover that data. So customers are really pressing VMware and VMware is coming to Dell Data Protection to say, look, we're becoming more and more critical, and they've always been critical in the data center. But we really need to partner with you to be able to deliver a full experience and offer that protection that is necessary for a customer's mission-critical environment. So VMware and Dell DPS, I mean, together, no one can compete with us. It's actually exciting where we are today. But most importantly, some of the things that we're doing moving forward. >> And one of the obvious advantages that Dell Technologies has with respect to VMware is joint VMware engineering and that deep integration. Tell me a little bit more about that, and how that is an advantage when you're talking and sell situations with your customers? >> Yeah, it's a. So I always say that probably about 18 months ago, we really started to put together this joint development start to get really tighter from a technology standpoint, because you can't just show up one day and say, Hey, I'm the best in this market, right? You really need to be building, something and get to a point and so about 18 months ago, I tell customers, that's when Dell and VMware really came together and started doing more in terms of strategic solutions. And it's paying off for us. So if you think about VMC, very critical, VMware Cloud, very very important for their future and their success. We were the first to market with that integration. If you think of Kubernetes, and the importance of Kubernetes. Moving forward, we were first integrated with that with VMware, so our engineering investments are paying off. And this is just the beginning of where that relationship is going to be. As we exit this year, our solutions together will be second to none in the market. And quite frankly, there'll be no one else left in the market that can compete with us from a technology and that's good, not just for our customers and our partners, and not just good for Dell DPS. But most importantly, that's really important to VMware right? They're scaling, they're growing tremendously. They're the leader in this market, and they want to continue to own more of a customer experience. And to do that they need a data protection partner that can help them and so we got a great relationship going right now and it's only getting better. >> That's good to hear. So in terms of data protection, let's let's dig into that third wave, which was Cyber Recovery because one of the things that we know is happening during the pandemic is that cybersecurity issues are on the rise. We know that as technology advances, and it's used for good applications. The bad actors also have access to it. I was reading from the FCC the other day that just since March, there are about 1000 new domain names registered every day with COVID-19. There's malware that's easily dropped on a suspecting persons a endpoint because maybe it has a really entirely enticing title from the World Health Organization. What are you seeing in your customer environments with respect to Cyber Recovery? And is it is security now even more of an important factor given that this work from home situation is probably going to continue for some businesses for quite some time? >> Yeah, I think, our customers have a lot of different challenges now with with COVID-19. And one of them was how do you get your workforce working remotely. And sometimes you have to cut corners to get that done. And what that does is open you up for more challenges, more security breaches. And on top of that, is we're seeing the I call them the bad guys, the bad guys are out there right now attacking our customers more than they ever had. So, before COVID-19 ransomware was a big problem. And now it's, it's even worse. And so I think the bad guys see that they have an opportunity to go out there and really hurt some of these companies hold them, hold them for ransom, get some money from them, which is very unfortunate, but at the same time, that's the reality that we're living in. So before COVID-19, we had a massive customer acceptance, so looking at what we delivered from a Cyber Recovery Solution. And now since COVID-19, is about a 4,000% increase in ransomware attacks, we're seeing every one of our customers really starting to adopt the Cyber Recovery Vault that we delivered to the market today. Now we it's this isn't something new, right? We we've been building on this since about 2016. And our solution has gotten better and better and better, to now where absolutely, we've always been the leader in this market. But now we have such an incredible lead with our customers in terms of how we can help them in the challenges that are exacerbating in their install base. We're really in the right place at the right time. It's unfortunate for our customers, but at the same time, they have to protect their assets. They always have to be able to recover their their their assets or the business won't continue. So it's an unfortunate thing for them, but Dell is here to help take care of one of these problems that they have which is protecting their mission-critical assets. >> Right. And this mission-critical assets are on devices. They're in Cloud applications like office 365, or Salesforce business-critical, revenue-critical data. They're in a data center, they're in VMs. How are you helping customers kind of evaluate if they're in a situation now where they realize maybe we haven't put the emphasis into data protection that we need to? How do you help a customer sort of stack rank and prioritize knowing that the threat vectors are fairly holistic and get a solution from Dell Technologies implemented, and securing them as fast as possible? >> Yeah, it's a good it's a good question. It's kind of a hard one to answer because our customers have data everywhere. So it's a hard one for our customers to kind of figure it out. But what we can do is we can start in different places for them so we can work with them on assets that things that absolutely for them to restart their business, we have a solution that allows them or a way that we say look for you to get your business back up and running there's a critical rebuild there's things that absolutely need to be able to lay down your foundation before you even consider dropping assets, or any applications back out there. So that's like a first step of hey, let's at least size out how you get your critical rebuild up and running. But then there's other companies like big banks that say, well, I need all my customer information no matter what, and I need to recover that. So it's it can get a little complicated. Sometimes we have customers, because they have to figure out what assets they want to put in the vault and how do they want to recover that data. And what's the RPO RTO time but for us, we can work with them and say here's the critical rebuild. Here's the first step of getting your information back from the bad guys or back from wherever you're storing it today. But then on top of that, we can start to expand with them. And they can start to protect more and more things and add to the ball more and more the critical applications that they have out there. And, no one understands this better than us. And so it's good because we can help our clients size where they are today, we can help take a snapshot of their environment today. And then we can recommend what we think is step one, and depending on their appetite, depending on their urgency, we could take them from step one to step done, right? We can, we can cover all their assets, so we can start with their mission-critical and move down to other applications. So the good news for our customers, we have the only secure vault in the market. And we also have the expertise and the people to be able to help them understand how they can get going. >> Last question, Jim, for you in terms of the choices of the technologies that Dell Technologies offers to your customers, Dell has been the leader in the purpose-built backup of plan market. Since IDC invented that category, but the market is bifurcating, and we're seeing Integrated Data Protection Appliances IDPA, even though it's a smaller term, that market is growing faster. Talk to me about the different choices of technologies that you deliver to your customers? >> Yeah, I guess there's a couple ways to look at there's a traditional way of a customer building out their solution and that would be the traditional purpose-built backup appliance Data Domain with our software. And so they would kind of build that build on their own, they put the software in the hardware together, and that would be their solution. What we are seeing more and more is that customers are looking for that integrated appliance. And I'm happy to say that, our IDPA solution, which was a little bit behind getting to the market is now right in the center of the market and picking share right? We are easily outgrowing the market. This is something that we're putting our shoulder behind. We're pushing really high with our customers. Our customers are extremely happy. So thank you to the engineering team, the services team, the product management team that, really helped us get from where we were, say three years ago to where we are now. Now our customers are really pushing for that integrated experience, because they're flying to quality. There's a flight to quality right now, someone that might have multiple backup applications might have multiple hardware solutions. They're trying to get to one vendor, they're trying to get to one partner, they are trying to make this a simpler experience. And so from Dell, because we cover all the use cases that our customers have out there, they're looking at us as that one provider, that one vendor that can deliver on the full experience across their whole environment, not just maybe the VMware solution, maybe not just a couple of databases, maybe not just their Cloud applications. They want a vendor that can provide solutions. Across all of their workloads across all of their use cases, and no matter where the data sits in a remote office, on-prem in a data center or in the cloud, and that's where IDPA comes in, we can deliver a solution that covers all customers use cases, with the same experience from Dell, which is second to none. So that's where IDPA is exciting. That's where IDPA is growing up place in the market. And that's where teams have to really spend time helping customers understand how they can consolidate down to one vendor, which is Dell, and be able to cover all of their requirements. So it's pretty exciting time on what we're delivering from an IDPA standpoint. And we are clearly taking share on that market right now. >> Well Jim, thank you for joining me on theCUBE today talking about those three waves, Cloud, VMware, Cyber Recovery and how Dell is really helping your customers rapidly pivot in these turbulent waters to capitalize on some of the new opportunities that are clearly there, we appreciate your time, Jim. >> Yeah, thanks for having me and we're going to continue to ride the waves and be really successful. >> All right, for Jim Clancy, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBES conversation with Dell Technologies. (soft music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stuart Miniman and welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm in our Boston area studio and one of the things we always love to do is talk to startups and really find out they're usually on the leading edge of helping customers, new technologies, conquering challenges. And to that point, we have the co-founder and CEO of env0, that is, Ohad Maislish and we brought along with him he's got two of his investors, one of his advisors. So sitting next to Maish, we have Ed Sim, who's the founder and managing partner of Boldstart Ventures and sitting next to him is Guy Podjarny, who is the founder of Snyk. So now, you know is the acronym for Snyk and if you didn't know that, I know I'd heard about the company a couple years before that and my understanding is, Guy your the ones that connected Ohad with Ed who was the first investor. So Guy let's talk to Ohad in a second, but how the conversation started? And what what piqued your interest about what is now env0? >> Yeah, I think it started with people. I mean, I think fundamentally when you think about technology and think about startups, it needs to be an interesting market, it needs to be a good idea, but it really, first and foremost is about the people. So I've I've known Ohad from actually some work that he's done at Snyk earlier on, and was really impressed with his sharpness, his technical chops, and a lot of times the bias for feedback. And then when he presented the idea to me around kind of making Infrastructure as Code easy, and I don't want to sort of steal his thunder, talking about it and about kind of engaging with developers for it, a thought that literally resonated with me, I think, we'll probably dig into it some more. But in we live in a world in which more and more activities, more and more decisions, and really more effort is rolled on to developers. So, there's a constant need for great solutions that make on one hand make it easy for developers to embrace these solutions, on the other hand, still kind of allow the right kind of governance and controls. And I felt like Infrastructure as Code was like a great space for that, where we asked developers to do more, there's a ton of value in developers doing more around controlling these Infrastructure decisions, but it's just too hard today. So, anyways, I kind of liked the skills, I liked the idea. And I pulled in Ed, who I felt was kind of natural to kind of help introduce these experiences with other startups that share a similar philosophy to kind of help make this happen. >> Awesome, thank you Guys. So Ohad, let's let's throw it to you. Give us a little bit about your background, your team, Infrastructure as Code is not a new term. So I guess would love you to kind of weave into it. You know why now? Is it becoming more real in why your solution is positioned to help the enterprise? >> Awesome, first of all, thank you for having me. It's really exciting and again thank you for the opportunity. Regarding your question, so my background is technical. I was maybe still am a geek started University at a young age at the age of 14 in Palo Alto High School. And started my career in non technical roles very early. I have now like 21 years of experience, this is my second startup and third company, as I mentioned, my previous company is services company, provided services for Snyk and we became friends and later on partners, investors, and so on. And, we we've seen huge shift, we call the Infrastructure as Code the third data center revolution. We look at the first one being virtualization about 20 years ago led by VMware and then ZenSourcer. The second obviously, is the public cloud when companies started clicking buttons in order to get those compute resources but now nobody is clicking those buttons anymore. And instead writing, maintaining and executing that code, that Infrastructure as Code and as the Guy mentioned, it made it much more relevant for developers to influence the Infrastructure decisions and not just the app decisions. With that many challenges and opportunities around Infrastructure as Code management and automation, and that's where we focus. >> All right, so Ed I'm sure like me, you've seen a number of companies, try to climb this mountain and fall down and crash so I feel like five years ago, I would talk to a company and they say, oh, we're going to help, really help the enterprise enable developers for networking for storage, for security or anything like that. And it was like, oh, okay, good luck with that. And they just kind of crashed and burned or got acquired or did something like that. So, I feel like from our viewpoint we've seen for a long time that growth of developers and how important that is, but that gap between the enterprise and the developers feels like we're getting there. So, it gets similar what I asked Ohad why now, why this group, why the investment from you? >> Yeah, so I'll echo Guy's comment about the people. So, first and foremost, I was fortunate enough to invest in Guy back in his prior company before he started Snyk and then invested in Snyk. And there are lots of elements of env0 that remind me of Snyk the idea, for example, that developers are doing more, and that security is no longer a separate piece of developing, it's now embedded kind of in what developers and teams are doing. And I felt like the opportunity was still there for Infrastructure as Code. How do you make developers more productive, but provide that control plan or governance that's centralized so that environments can easily be reproduced. And the thing that got me so excited, was the idea that Ohad was going to tie kind of cloud costs from a proactive basis versus a reactive basis. Meaning that once we know that your environments are up and running, you could actually automatically tag it and tie the environment to the actual application. And to me, tying the business piece to the development piece was a huge, huge opportunity that hasn't been tapped yet. And so there are lots of elements of both Snyk and env0 and we're super excited to be invested in both. >> Alright, so Ohad maybe just step back for a second, give us some of the speeds and feeds we read your blog post 3.3 million dollars of the early investment, how many people you have, what is the stage of the product customer acquisition and the like? >> Sure, so we just launched our public beta and announced the funding couple of months ago led by Boldstart and another VC in Israel named Grove, and then angel investors Guy is the greatest investor among those and so we have some others as well. And now we have like 10 employees nine in Israel, one in New York City, I'm relocating after this all pandemic thing will get better. I'm moving to the Bay Area as soon as possible. That's more or less the status. And as I've mentioned, we just launched our public beta. So we have our first few design partners and early like private beta customers now starting to grow more. >> Yeah, and how would you characterize, what is the relationship between what you're doing in the public clouds. We understand, in the early days, it was like, Oh, well, cloud is going to be easy, it's going to just be enable it, it has been a wonderful tool set for developers. But simple is definitely not, I think anyone would describe the current state of environments. So, help it help us give it a little bit of what you're seeing there. And how you deal with like some very large players in ecosystem. >> Our customers are the same as the cloud vendors customers. The cloud vendors provide great value with the technical aspect with Infrastructure. But once you want to manage your organization, you want to empower your developers, you want to shift left some decisions, APM, did shift left for a performance, Snyk is doing great shift left for security. I believe that we are doing similar things to the cost. And you in the cloud vendors are in charge of you being able to do some technical orchestration. But when do you need to tear down those resources? When do you understand that there is a problematic resource or environment and what exactly made it? What is the association, how you can prevent from (mumbles) deployments from even happening at first. So all of those management information and insight ties back to your business logic and processes that's where we fit. >> I think there's actually a lot of analogy if I can chime in, on maybe an ownership aspect that happens in cloud. So we talk about the cloud and oftentimes cloud is interpreted as the technical aspect of it. So the fact that it allows you to do a bunch of things in the clouds and sort of renting someone else's hardware, and then automating a lot of it. But what cloud also does and that definitely represents what we're doing security and I think applies here, is that it moves a lot of things that used to be IT responsibility being a part of the application. So a lot of decisions, including ones really security, and including ones related cost around anywhere from provisioning of servers to, network access, to when you burst out, and to the balancing of business value to the cost involved or the risk involved. Those are no longer done by a central IT organizations, but rather, they're being done by developers day in and day out. And so I think that's really where the analogy really works with cloud is, it's not so much, like clearly there's an aspect of that that is the the technical piece of tracking how much does it cost in the on demand surrounding of cloud, but there's a lot of the ownership change, or the fact that the decisions that impact that are done by developers, and they're not yet well equipped to have the insights, to have the tools, to make the right decisions with a press of button. >> Thank you Guy and absolutely, 'cause cloud is just one of the platforms you're living on, you know well from Snyk that integration between what's happening in the platform, where open source fits into it, the various parts of the organization that are there. So, you've got some good background, I'm sure, helps you're an advisor to Ohad there to helps pull through a little bit of some of those challenges. Yeah, I mean, Ed I'd love to hear just in general your viewpoint on how startups are doing at monetizing things in the era of... You've got the massive players like Amazon and Microsoft out there. >> Look, the enterprise pain is higher than ever right now, every fortune 500 is a tech company right now and they need engineers, and they're hiring engineers. In fact, many of the largest fortune 500 have more engineers than some of the tech companies. And developer productivity is number one, front and center. And if you talk to CIOs, we just hosted a panel with the CIO of Guardian Life and the CTO of Priceline. They're all looking at how do I kind of automate my tool chain? How do I get things done faster? How do I do things more scalable? And then how do I coordinate processes amongst teams. As Guy hit upon and Ohad as well, not just security, there's product design being embedded with developers as product management being embedded with developers. There's finance now, FinOps. If you're going to spend more and more in the cloud, how do you actually control that proactively before things happen versus after or months after that happens? So I think this is going to be a huge, huge opportunity on the FinOps side. And, the final thing I would say is that winning the hearts and minds of developers to win the enterprise is a tried and trued model, and I think it's going to be even more important as we move forward in the next few years, to be honest with you. >> All right, so Ohad you know I think Ed talked about those hearts and minds of developers absolutely critical. When you look at the tooling landscape out there, the challenge of course, is there's so many tools out there, that there's platform battles, there's developers that find certain things that they love, and then there's, oh, wait, can I have a general purpose solution that can help. You talk about this being the third wave, how does this kind of tie into or potentially replace some of the last generation of automation tools. How do you see yourself getting into the accounts and growing your developer base? >> I think, I have a very simple answer, because, now enterprises have two options. Either they go with productivity self-service, or they go with governance, but they cannot have both. So if it's the smaller or they have less risks, so they go with the productivity and they take those risks, take the extra costs, take that potential damage that can happen. But more we see the case of I cannot allow myself this mess, so I have to block this velocity. I have to block those developers, they cannot just orchestrate cloud resources as they wish they have to open tickets, they have to go through some manual process of approval or we see more and more developers that understand there is a challenge they built in-house env0 of self-service combined with governance solution, and they always struggle doing it well, because it's not their core business. So once you see the opportunity of a more and more customers doing a lot of investment in in-house solution that do the same thing, probably a good idea to do it, as a separate product. And also the fact that we have the visibility of different customers, we can be very early but for later on adds pattern recognition, and notice what makes sense, what is problematic and give those insights and more business logic back to the customers which is impossible for them to do if they're only isolated on their cases. So as providing the same great solution to different companies, allowing them self-service combined with governance, and then additionally, add those and Smart Insights later on. >> Yeah, I think what I love about what he said is that I don't think he even sort of said finance or cost at any time of those. So really, like you said, governance and I think you can swap governance or you can swap the kind of the entity that's doing the governance for security for all of those. And that sounds awfully familiar for Snyk, which really kind of begs the answer to be the same, it's the reason that env0 approach is promising and that it would win against competition is that it tends to be that the competition or the people that are around are focused on the governance piece, they're they're focused on just sort of the entity that is the controlling entity. I like to say that it's actually not about shift left, it's about if you want to choose a direction, it's going to be the sort of the top to bottom. So it's more about, like this governance entities, whether security or finance, they need to shift from a controlling mindset that is top down that is like this dictatorship of sort of telling you what you should and shouldn't do to more of a bottom up element and allowing the teams the people in the trenches people actually make decisions to make correct decisions, and in this case, correct decisions from a financial perspective. And then alongside that, the governing entity, they need to switch to being a supportive entity an enabling entity and I think that transition will happen across many aspects of sort of software development and definitely anything that requires that type of governance from from outside of the development process today that is to change. >> Yeah, to chime in and add to Guys point, development is so important, it touches every aspect of an organization. So I always think about it as almost a collaborative workflow layer versus being reliant on kind of one control entity. Great developers always want to move fast. But, how do you kind of build that collaborative workflow and I think that Ohad in env0 is providing that for the environment and finance. Guys doing it for security. And there's lots of other opportunities out there, like privacy as well. And I wouldn't be surprised if finance folks start getting embedded with development at some point just like security is, or design is, product management is as well, because that is probably one of the highest costs around right now for many companies, and they're all trying to figure out how to stop the bleeding much earlier. >> Yeah, it's been lots of discussion, of course, we kind of go beyond DevOps, I think FinOps is in there. Ohad you have a favorite term that you've had from your advisors yet, how you categorize what you're doing. Any final words on kind of that organizational dynamic which we know so often it's the technology can be the easy part, it's getting everybody in the org, pulling in the same direction. >> Yeah, I think I'm looking at maybe a physical metaphor, or just an example, if you just enter a developer's room, you might see a screen TV there with some APM Datadog, New Relic Metrics, developers care about performance. They know very early if they did something wrong. And now they see more and more in those dashboards, in the developers rooms, things like Snyk to make sure you're not putting any bad open source package, which has security or ability. What we believe is that now they don't have the right tools, the right product that they can be part of the responsibility, of course, and that's like somebody else's problem. In other rooms, you have those TVs, those screens that show what is the cost, and maybe only later on in the waterfall kind of way you try to isolate and root cause analysis on what went wrong, but there is no good reason why those graphs of the past should be in the same rooms next to the APM and the Snyks and to prevent those as early as possible, maybe to change the discussion and build more trust between the developers that now seem not to care about the cost because they used not to care like 10 years ago when we used to have is called Apex-Cloud. The VMware or even EC2 Instances with the predicted pricing, that's all school. Now you have auto scaling Kubernetes, you have Lambda those kind of things you pay per usage. So the possibility for engineers to know how much their code is about to cost to the organization is very challenging now. If we tie from the developer up to, the financial operations, we will provide better service, and just better business value for our customer. >> Awesome, so final question I have for you, and Ohad I'm going to have you go last on this one is you kind of painted the picture of where things are going to go. So give us what success look like, Ed, start with you, give us out 12 to 24 months as to env0 in this wave as what should we be looking for? >> Success to me would be that every large enterprise has this on their budget line item as a must have. And the market is still early and evolving right now, but I have no doubt in my mind, it's going to happen. And as you hear about many large enterprises saying that we were in the second inning of cloud migration now we're in the fourth. That is what success will be and I know it's going to happen faster than we all thought. >> I'll take the developer angle to it, I think success is really when developers are delighted, or sort of they feel they're building better software by using env0 and by factoring this aspect of quality into their daily activities. And I think a lot of that comes down to ease of use. Like, I kind of encourage folks to sort of try out the env0 and see the cost calculation, it's all about making it easy. So what excites me is really around that type of success where it's so easy that it's embedded into their sort of daily activities, and that they're happy it's not a forced thing. It's something they've accepted and like having as part of their software development process. >> I fully agree with both Ed in Guy, but I want to add on on a personal note, that one of the reasons we started env0 is because we saw developers quitting jobs at some places. And the reason for that was that they didn't give them self-service, they didn't empower those developers, they were blocked by DevOps, they needed to open tickets, to do trivial things. And this frustration is just a bigger motivation for us to solve. So we want to reduce this frustration. We want developers to be happy and productive, and do what they need to do, and not getting blocked by others. So that's, I think, another way to look at it, to make sure that those developers are really making good use out of their time and going back home at the end of the day, and feeling that they did what they were paid for, not for waiting for others to locate some cloud resources for them. >> All right, well, Ohad want to wish you the best, absolutely. Some of the early things that we've seen sometimes they're the tools that help, we've been talking gosh I remember 15, 20 years about breaking down the silos between various parts of the organization, some of the tools give you different viewpoints into what you're doing, help have some of the connection and hopefully some empathy as to what the various pieces are there. You really highlighted there's nothing worse than I'm not being appreciated for the work I'm doing, or they don't understand the challenges that I'm going through. So, congratulations on env0. We look forward to following going forward and definitely hope being part your customers in the future. Thanks so much. >> Thank you, thank you very much. >> All right, and Guy really appreciate your perspectives on this thank you for joining us. >> Thanks for having them. >> All right, be sure to check out theCUBE.net where you can find all of the events we're doing online these days, of course, where there's a huge back catalog of what we have in the thousands of interviews that we've done. I'm Stuart Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Male narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to the DockerCon Virtual Conference. DockerCon 20 being held digitally online is the CUBE's coverage. I'm John for your host of the CUBE. This is the CUBE virtual CUBE digital. We're getting all the remote interviews. We're here in our Palo Alto studio, quarantined crew, all getting the data for you. Got Peter Guangeti who's the Chief Marketing Officer Cockroach Labs, a company that we became familiar with last year. They had the first multicloud event in the history of the industry last year, notable milestone. Hey first, it's always good you're still around. So first you got the first position, Peter. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the CUBE for DockerCon 20. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> So it's kind of interesting, I mentioned that tidbit to give you a little bit of love on the fact that you guys ran or were a part of the first multicloud conference in the industry. Okay, now that's all everyone's talking about. You guys saw this early. Take a minute to explain Cockroach Labs. Why you saw this trend? Why you guys took the initiative and took the risk to have the first ever multicloud conference last year? >> So that's news to me that we were the first, actually. That's a bit of a surprise, cause for us we see multicloud and hybrid cloud as the obvious. I think the credit really for this belongs with folks like Gartner and others who took the time to listen to their customer, right? Took the time to understand what was the need in the market, which, you know, what I hear when I talk to CEOs is cloud is a capability, not a place, right? They're looking at us and saying, "yes, I have a go to cloud strategy, "but I also have made massive investments in my data center. "I believe I don't want to be locked in yet again "to another vendor with proprietary PIs, "proprietary systems, et cetera." So, what I hear when I talk to customers is, "I want to be multicloud show me how, "show me how to do that in a way "that isn't just buying from multiple vendors, right?" Where I've cost arbitrage, show me a way where I actually use the infrastructure in a creative way. And that really resonates with us. And it resonates with us for a few reasons. First is, we built a distributed SQL database for a reason, right? We believed that what you really need in the modern age for global applications is something that is truly diverse and distributed, right? You can have a database that behaves like a single database that lives in multiple locations around the world. But then you also have things like data locality. It's okay with German data stays in Germany because of German law. But when I write my application, I never write each of these things differently. Now, the other reason is, customers are coming to us and saying, "I want a single database that I can deploy "in any of the cloud providers." Azure SQL, and that is a phenomenal product. Google Spanner is a phenomenal product. But once I do that, I'm locked in. Then all I have is theirs. But if I'm a large global auto manufacturer, or if I'm a startup, that's trying to enter multiple markets at the same time. I don't want that. I want to be able to pick my infrastructure and deploy where I want, how I want. And increasingly, we talk to the large banks and they're saying, "I spent tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars "on data centers. "I don't want to throw them out. "I just want better utilization. "And the 15 to 20% that I get "from deploying software on bare metal, right? "I want to be able to containerize. "I want to be able to cloudify my data center "and then have ultimately what we see more and more "as what they call a tripod strategy "where your own data center and two cloud providers "behaving as a single unit "for your most important applications." >> That's awesome. I want to thank you for coming on to, for DockerCon 20, because this is an interesting time where developers are going to be called to the table in a very aggressive way because of COVID-19 crisis is going to accelerate until they pull the future forward ahead of most people thought. I mean, we, in the industry, we are inside the ropes, if you will. So we've been talking about stainless applications, stateful databases, and all the architectural things that's got that longer horizon. But this is an interesting time because now companies are realizing from whether it's the shelter in place at scale problems that emerge to the fact that I got to have high availability at a whole nother level. This kind of exposes a major challenge and a major opportunity. We're expecting projects to be funded, some not to be funded, things to move around. I think it's going to really change the conversation as developers get called in and saying, "I really got to look at my resources at scale. "The database is a critical one because you want data "to be part of that, this data plane, if you will, "across clouds." What's your reaction to this? Do you agree with that, the future has been pulled forward? And what's Cockroach doing to help developers do manage this? >> Yeah, John, I think you're exactly right. And I think that is a story that I'm glad that you're telling. Because, I think there's a lot of signal that's happening right now. But we're not really thinking about what the implications are. And we're seeing something that's I think quite remarkable. We're seeing within our existing customer base and the people we've been talking to, feast or famine. And in some cases, feast and famine in the same company. And what does that really mean? We've looked at these graphs for what's going to happen, for example, with online delivery services. And we've seen the growth rates and this is why they're all so valued. Why Uber invested so big in Uber eats and these other vendors. And we've seen these growth rates the same, and this is going to be amazing in the next 10 years, we're going to have this adoption. That five, 10 years happened overnight, right? We were so desperate to hold onto the things that are what mattered to us. And the things that make us happy on any given day. We're seeing that acceleration, like you said. It's all of that, the future got pulled forward, like you had said. >> Yeah. >> That's remarkable, but were you prepared for it? Many people were absolutely not prepared for it, right? They were on a steady state growth plan. And we have been very lucky because we built an architecture that is truly distributed and dynamic. So, scaling and adding more resilience to a database is something we all learned to do over the last 20 years, as data intensive applications matter. But with a distributed SQL and things like containerization on the stateless side, we know we can just truly elastically scale, right? You need more support for the application of something like Cockroach. You literally just add more nodes and we absorb it, right? Just like we did with containerization, where you need more concurrency, you just add more containers. And thank goodness, right, because I think those who were prepared for those things need to be worked with one of the large delivery services. Overnight, they saw a jump to what was their peak day at any point in time now happening every single day. And they were prepared for that because they already made these architectural decisions. >> Yeah. >> But if you weren't in that position, if you were still on legacy infrastructure, you were still trying to do this stuff manually, or you're manually sharding databases and having to increase the compute on your model, you are in trouble and you're feeling it. >> That's interesting Peter to bring that up and reminds me of the time, if you go back in history a little bit, just not too far back, I mean, I'm old enough to go back to the 80s, I remember all the different inflection points. And they all had their key characteristics as a computer revolution, TCP IP, and you pick your spots, there's always been that demarcation point or lions in where things change. But let's go back to around 2004 and then 2008. During that time, those legacy players out there kind of was sitting around, sleeping at the switch and incomes, open-source, incomes, Facebook, incomes, roll your own. Hey, I'm going to just run. I'm going to run open-source. I'm going to build my own database. And that was because there was nothing in the market. And most companies were buying from general purpose vendors because they didn't have to do all the due diligence. But the tech-savvy folks could build their own and scale. And that changed the game that became the hyperscale and the rest is history. Fast forward to today, because what you're getting at is, this new inflection point. There's going to be another tipping point of trajectory of knowledge, skill that's completely different than what we saw just a year ago. What's your reaction to that? >> I think you're exactly right. We saw and I've been lucky enough, same like you, I've been involved in the web since the very early days. I started my career at the beginning. And what we saw with web 1.0 and the shift to web 2.0, web 2.0 would not have happened without source. And I don't think we give them enough credit if it wasn't for the lamp stack, if it wasn't for Linux, if it wasn't for this wave of innovation and it wasn't even necessarily about rolling around. Yeah, the physics of the world to go hire their own engineers, to go and improve my SQL to make it scale. That was of course a possibility. But the democratization of that software is where all of the success really came from. And I lived on both sides of it in my career, as both an app developer and then as a software executive. In that window and got to see it from both sides and see the benefit. I think what we're entering now is yet another inflection point, like you said. We were already working at it. I think, the move from traditional applications with simple logic and simple rules to now highly data intensive applications, where data is driving the experience, models are driving the experience. I think we were already at a point where ML and AI and data intensive decision-making was going to make us rewrite every application we had and not needed a new infrastructure. But I think this is going to really force the issue. And it's going to force the issue at two levels. First is the people who are already innovating in each of these industries and categories, were already doing this. They were already cloud native. They were already built on top of very modern third generation databases, third generation programming languages, doing really interesting things with machine learning. So they were already out innovating, but now they have a bigger audience, right? And if you're a traditional and all of a sudden your business is under duress because substantial changes in what is happening in the market. Retailers still had strength with footprint as of last year, right? We don't be thinking about e-commerce versus traditional retail. Yeah, it was on a slow decline. There were lots of problems, but there was still a strength there, that happened changed overnight. Right now, that new sources have dried up, so what are you going to do? And how are you going to act? If you've built your entire business, for example, on legacy databases from folks like Oracle and old monolithic ways of building out patients, you're simply not adaptable enough to move with changing times. You're going to have to start, we used to talk about every company needed to become a software company. That mostly happened, but they weren't all very good software companies. I would argue that the next generation used to to be a great software company and great data scientists. We'll look at the software companies that have risen to prominence in the last five to 10 years. Folks like Facebook, folks like Google, folks like Uber, folks like Netflix, they use data better than anyone else in their category. So they have this amazing app experience and leverage data and innovate in such a way that allow them to just dominate their category. And I think that is going to be the change we see over the next 10 years. And we'll see who exits what is obviously going to be a jail term. We'll see who exits on top. >> Well, it's interesting to have you on. I love the perspective and the insights. I think that's great for the folks out there who haven't seen those ways before. Again, this wave is coming. Let's go back to the top when we were talking about what's in it for the developer. Because I believe there's going to be not a renaissance, cause it's always been great, but the developers even more are going to be called to the front lines for solutions. I mean, these are first-generation skill problems that are going to be in this whole next generation, modern era. That's upon us. What are some of the things that's going to be that lamp stack, like experience? What are some of the things that you see cause you guys are kind of at a tail sign, in my opinion, Cockroach, because you're thinking about things in a different construct. You're thinking about multicloud. You're thinking about state, which is a database challenge. Stateless has kind of been around restful API, stateless data service measures. Kubernetes is also showing a cloud native and the microservices or service orientation is the future. There's no debate on that. I think that's done. Okay, so now I'm a developer. What the hell am I going to be dealing with for the next five years? What's your thoughts? >> Well, I think the developer knows what they're already facing from an app perspective. I think you see the rapid evolution in languages, and then, in deployment and all of those things are super obvious. You need just need to go and say I'm sure that all the DockerCon sessions to see what the change to deployment looks like. I think there are a few other key trends that developers should start paying attention to, they are really critical. The first one, and only loosely related to us, is ML apps, right? I think just like we saw with dev and ops, suddenly come together so we can actually develop and deploy in a super fast iterative manner. The same things now are going to start happening with data and all of the work that we do around deploying models. And I think that that's going to be a pretty massive change. You think about the rise of tools like TensorFlow, some of the developments that have happened inside of the cloud providers. I think you're seeing a lot there as a developer, you have to start thinking as much like a data scientist and a data engineer as simply somebody writing front end code, right? And I think that's a critical skill that the best developers already building will continue. I think then the data layer has become as important or more important than any other layer in the stack because of this. And you think about once again, how the leaders are using data and the interesting things that they're doing, the tools you use matter, right? If you are spending a lot of your time trying to figure out how to shard something how to make it scale, how to make it durable when instead you should be focused on just the pure capability, that's a ridiculous use of your time, right? That is not a good use of your time. We're still using 20 to 25 year old open-source databases for many of these applications when they gave up their value probably 10 years ago. Honestly, you know, we keep all paper over it, but it's not a great solution. And unfortunately, no SQL will fix some of the issues with scaling elasticity, it's like you and I starting a business and saying, "okay, everyone speaks English, "but because we're global, "everyone's going to learn Esperanto, right?" That doesn't work, right? So works for a developer. But if you're trying to do something where everyone can interact, this is why this entire new third generation of new SQL databases have risen. We took the distributed architecture SQL. >> Hold up for a second. Can you explain what that means? Cause I think a key topic. I want to just call that out. What is this third generation database mean? Sorry, I speak about it. Like everyone sees it. >> I think it's super important. It's just a highlight. Just take a minute to explain it and we can get into it. There is an entire new wave of database infrastructure that has risen in the last five years. And it started actually with Google. So it started with Google Spanner. So Google was the first to face most of these problems, right? They were the first to face web scale. At least at the scale, we now know it. They were the first to really understand the complexity of working with data. They have their own no SQL. They have their own way of doing things internally and they realized it wasn't working. And what they really needed was a relational database that spoke traditional ANSI SQL, but scaled, like there are no SQL counterparts. And there was a white paper that was released. That was the birth of Spanner. Spanner was an internal product for many, many years. They released the thinking into the wild and then they just started this way with innovation. That's where our company came from. And there were others like us who said, "you're right. "Let's go build something that behaves," like we expect a database to behave with structure and this relational model and like anyone can write simple to use it. It's the simplest API for most people with data, but it behaves like all the best distributed software that we've been using. And so that's how we were born. Our company was founded by ex Googlers who had lived in this space and decided to go and scratch the itch, right? And instead of doing a product that would be locked into a single cloud provider, a database that could be open-source, it could be deployed anywhere. It could cross actual power providers without hiccups and that's been the movement. And it's not just us, there were other vendors in this space and we're all focused on really trying to take the best of the both worlds that came before us. The traditional relational structure, the consistency and asset compliance that we all loved from tools like Oracle, right? And Microsoft who we really enjoyed. But then the developer friendly nature and the simple elastic scalability of distributed software and, that's what we're all seeing. Our company, for example, has only been selling a product for the last two years. We found it five years ago, it took us three years just to rank in the software that we would be happy selling to a customer. We're on what we believe is probably a 10 to 15 year product journey to really go and replace things like Oracle. But we started selling the product two years ago and there is 300% growth year over year. We're probably one of the fastest growing software companies in America, right? And it's all because of the latent demand for this kind of a tool. >> Yeah, that's a great point. I'm a big fan of this third wave. Can I see it? If you look at just the macro tailwinds in the industry, billions of edged devices, immersion of all kinds of software. So that means you can't have one database. I always said to someone, in (mumbles) and others. You can't have one database. It's physically impossible. You need data and whatever database fits the scene, wherever you want to have data being stored, but you got to have it real time. You got to have actionable, you have to have software intelligence into how to manage the data. So I think the data control plane or that layer, I think it's the next interoperability wave. Because without data, nothing really works. Machine learning doesn't really work well. You want the most data. I think cybersecurity is a great early use case because they have to leverage data fast. And so you start to see some interesting financial services, cyber, what's your thoughts on this? Can you share from the Cockroach Labs perspective, from your database, you've got a cloud. What are some of the adoption use cases? Who are those leaders? You can name names if you have them, if not, name the use case. What's the Cockroach approach? Who's winning with it? What's it look like? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And you nailed it, right? The data volumes are so large and they're so globally distributed. And then when you start layering again, the data streaming in from devices that then have to be weighed against all of these things. You want a single database. But you need one that will behave in a way that's going to support all of that and actually is going to live at the edge like you're saying. And that's where we have been shining. And so our use cases are, and unfortunate, I can't name any names, but, for example, in retail. We're seeing retailers who have that elasticity and that skill challenge with commerce. And what they're using us for is then, we're in all of the locations where they do business, right? And so we're able to have data locality associated with the businesses and the purchases in those countries. And however, only have single apps that actually bridge across all of those environments. And with the distributed nature, we were able to scale up and scale down truly elastically, right? Because we spread out the data across the nodes automatically. And, what we see there is, you know, retailers do you have up and down moments? Can you talk about people who can leverage the financial structure of the cloud in a really thoughtful way? Retail is a shining example of that. I remember having customers that had 64 times the amount of traffic on cyber Monday that they had on the average day. In the old data center world, that's what you bought for. That was horrendous. In a cloud environment, still horrendous, even public cloud providers. If you're having to go and change your app to ramp every time, that's a problem with something like a distributed database. and with containerization, you could scale much more quickly and scale down much more. That's a big one for streaming media, is another one. Same thing with data locality in each of these countries, you think about it, somebody like Netflix or Hulu, right? They have shows that are unique to specific countries, right? They haven't have that user behavior, all that user data. You know data sovereignty, you know, what you watch on Netflix, there's some very rich personal data. And we all know how that metadata has been used against people. Or so it's no surprise that you now have countries that I know there's going to be regulation around where that data can live and how it can. And so once again, something like Cockroach where you can have that global distribution, but take a locality, or we can lock data to certain nodes in certain locations. That's a big one. >> There's no doubt in my mind. I think there's such a big topic. We probably do more interviews just on the COVID-19 data problem that they have. The impact of getting this right, is a nerd problem today. But it is a technology solution for society globally in the future. Zero doubt in my mind on that. So, Peter, I want you to get the last word and to give a plugin to the developers that are watching out there about Cockroach. Why should they engage with you guys? What can you offer? Is there anything new you want to share about the company to the audience here at DockerCon 2020? Take us home in the next segment. >> Thank you, John. I'll keep the sales pitch to a minimum. I'm a former developer myself. I don't like being sold, so I appreciate it. But we believe we're building, what is the right database for the coming wave of cognitive applications. And specifically we've built what we believe is the ideal database for distributed applications and for containerized applications. So I would strongly encourage you to try it. It is open-source. It is truly cloud native. We have free education, so you can try it yourself. And once you get into it, it is traditional SQL that behaves like Postgres and other tools that you've already known of. And so it should be very familiar, you know, if you've come up through any of these other spaces will be very natural. Postgres compatible integrates with a number of ORM. So as a developer, just plugged right into the tools you use and we're on a rapid journey. We believe we can replace that first generation of technology built by the Oracles of the world. And we're committed to doing it. We're committed to spending the next five to 10 years in hard engineering to build that most powerful database to solve this problem. >> Well, thanks for coming on, sharing your awesome insight and historical perspective. get it out of experience. We believe and we want to share the audience in this time of crisis, more than ever to focus on critical nature of operations, because coming out of this, it is going to be a whole new reality. And I think the best tech will win the day and people will be building new things to grow, whether it's for profit or for societal benefit. The impact of what we do in the next year or two will determine a big trajectory and new technology, new approaches that are dealing with the realities of infrastructure, scale, working at home , sheltering in place to coming back to the hybrid world. We're coming virtualized, Peter. We've been virtualized, the media, the lifestyle, not just virtualization in the networking sense, but, fun times it was going to be challenging. So thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much, John. >> Okay, we're here for DockerCon 20 virtual conferences, the CUBE Virtual Segment. I want to thank you for watching. Stay with me. We've got stream all day today and check out the sessions. Jump in, it's going to be on demand. There's a lot of videos it's going to live on and thanks for watching and stay with us for more coverage and analysis. Here at DockerCon 20, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching >> Narrator: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is the CUBE conversation.

>>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >>Welcome to this Special Cube conversation. We're gonna unpack and have a casual conversation around the big news that VM Ware just announced the sphere 7.7 point. Oh, or V. Sphere seven. Chris Prasad, senior vice president, General manager of the Sphere Cloud Platform Business unit. Paul Turner, VP of product. Guys, we just chatted about the big news. Congratulations. Um, the bottom line, if I'm a customer, I'm moving into the cloud. I see this as really an either an enabler or blocker. You guys actually think it's an enabler? Um, I'm not saying it's a blocker, but as a customer, I just need to know, Is it going to help me go faster? I'm going cloud, Which means I've been told I got to get on the cloud you got Amazon might have azure or multiple clouds with workloads sitting around. I gotta pull them all together and make them work. But right now, I just got to get my operations cloud native necessarily kind of pressure point. >>Oh, for sure. One of the biggest drivers that you see happen in the industry right now is kubernetes. Why? Why is kubernetes taking off communities taking off because it gives you cloud independence. It gives you the ability to run with same operating model, whether it's in Google Cloud, Amazon's Cloud, Microsoft Cloud or any other cloud service. What we're doing with version seven instruction bring that same kubernetes cloud independent operating model directly in divisor. So now all of your infrastructure platforms that are out there, 90% of I T environments are all kubernetes ready platforms on. That's really powerful. So what we've done is just taken a totally different kind of, um ah, scope on how cloud should be Cloud should be any cloud. It should be independent of one particular flavor of it and on developers should be able to work then in a much more agile way. >>You just see, I've been following VM where you know my career since it was founded. And, you know, with the Cube coverage over the years is they see the innovation. You guys do a lot of great stuff. Of course, we keep on our teams to minimum. And David Lantz he made some good calls with these v san. We saw the early stuff with V Cloud Air Kind of saw that kind of going in this direction, But it's been really innovation going on around you guys. I'll see with NSX has exploded and V Sphere has been the core thing. As you guys look at the cloud model, you guys made some good moves with Amazon. I've always felt that you guys could be that Switzerland that that layer of connection points between as enterprise really moved from old way of provisioning, too much more seamless operating model where they have a deal with cyber security. They gotta deal with all the stuff that's going to come from APS that's going to come from the APP store. When you bought Hep D Oh, I was like, That's actually really smart move. You started bringing that cloud native vibe into V sphere, and that's what's essentially happening here. Isn't it? >>Exactly. This is like the the coming out party for that, like it's V Sphere having all the hefty oh goodness embedded in it. And what they would see is that because we have such a huge presence in the on Prem space, this provides the fastest bad for customers to get to the cloud. So today I mean this? I don't want this point to be lost on the today. You know, we are running the same VM Ware Cloud Foundation, our on Prem on Amazon in Google and many of the same code base. Same code base, right? It's the exact same thing. So now what does that give you as a customer? It gives you the same operational model across all these clouds. Because customers today, we thought that they're setting up set of processes and tools or Amazon. Then you go to Azure. You're doing a different set than their training people to do that. And, you know, you could get into compliance and other issues where things fall through the cracks. Right? When you do that here, the same platform you said your policies wants it applies to all the clouds. You can move your workloads between clouds, right? That's a V motion. Essentially, we don't know the >>last kept on that one, but that's ideal would be crippled >>today. It is happening today and we have thousands of other partners which are the tier two service providers who are all also offering that. So we have a huge grab off these providers are in which we live in the same platform. >>Yeah, I want to add something else, actually, to that as well. Which is? This is an open platform, which is really powerful, right? This is based on kubernetes for developers, which means you can run on the V sphere platform, and that is a hybrid infrastructure that is the most ubiquitous infrastructure out there. But if you actually want to take your application actually deployed onto a native application Native Cloud, you can do that as well. Um, and so it's very important for us to keep the platform open while making broadest available on >>Dev ops. I mean, first, I totally agree. I think open wins, But the end of the day, I think this operating consistency is a big story because it's kind of like nuance. But it is really the most important customers care about, because if you're operating successfully seamlessly across cloud, it's better. So the question I have on the Dev Op side because the dream has always been infrastructure as code. So are you guys there with this? Do you consider this V Sphere seven kind of infrastructures code from a developer? Is it all being taken care of. How close are we in your mind's eye to infrastructure as code. >>Now it's 100% there. I mean, we made the announcement around Hangzhou, which is a set off other products and capabilities that we add to what the sphere has and that whole stack. And the solution is for this targeted at the modern developer. So we have all the capabilities that the developers need to do infrastructure as scored, to deploy their applications and deployed across all these clouds. >>And I want I want to add to that the infrastructure as code really has two parts to it. We look at how do I provide the developers infrastructure's code, which is what we're doing with kubernetes enablement and we have our V San product is available. In fact, all storage services from V sphere available through that andare NSX services are available through kubernetes. So you've got full infrastructures code for developers. But infrastructures code also means how do you deploy large scale infrastructures and manage them as code? How do people actually manage the operations and the deployment of services? And so you're right in your admin team actually have a full layer of enhanced lifecycle management provisioning off configurations and settings across infrastructure. All of that is now managed, as >>that's almost under the hood kind of stuff. But that's important because networking is going to play a big role in all of this from a security standpoint and also compute storage. Pretty much looking, looking good, but networking becomes a huge part of what's under the hood. >>Yeah, I mean, look at networking is what enables us to connect all these clouds together, right? And NSX being the underlying platform for us enables us to have one single layer across all these clouds with the same operating model. So NSX is very critical. >>I want to get your guys thoughts on some little history lesson here or scar tissue, as we say in the industry. You know, I remember back during the Hadoop days, 2010 the big data movement hit, and it was just going to save us all. It's gonna be great, but what ended up happening was this very hard to stand up these clusters and what happened was the commitment the vision was there, but it was just really hard to manage and stand up clusters and hire people to do this. So it has some use cases, but it just really kind of fell down. We saw Open Stack have a similar trajectory where good on paper, things had used cases. But it's just so hard to manage the trends. We're moving very, very fast. Cloud was here. Cloud Computing kind of took everyone by storm and just got rid of all those things. And so they kind of dying. >>No. But if you think about why open Stack didn't go anywhere in the end, it's because of the operational complexity right? It took a lot to set it up, and he had essentially invest a lot more than keeping it running right. And then what we're doing is saying you don't have to worry about that aspect because it's built into the platform that you already know, right? So we have taken that complexity out completely, and so you just have this fear. The administrators know how to set up and run and do life cycle, and this year, and you get kubernetes, go >>back to my original question. If that's the case, which, by the way, I think that's the way to think about it. Then I found the customer acceleration. I can draft up with the movement of cloud as fast as I can Go is having any kind of blockers. >>Fastest lamb like cloud >>ran to the cloud >>and fastest fastest ramp to a cloud operating model, which means that all of your developers can now actually run as quickly as they can, building their applications independent of I t. In a much more dynamic way. So you want to move to that cloud operating model. That's why Kubernetes is so important on the infrastructure side. We've actually, of course, made it a much easier platform to manage. But but it's the agility that matters. >>You guys have done some great innovation. I think you've got a good ear to the market, made some good moves. Looking good. This is a great vision. I got to get your guys take on the edge. Big discussion. Five g. Certain years love that kind of vision. But the end of the day and edge. Now, if you talk about cloud operations, everything's an edge, right? So what does edge mean for V sphere? How do you guys look at the edge of the network. And as these applications with the sensors or whatever happening at the edges, How does this V Sphere look at that? How do you guys look? >>So, uh, for let me just I would say that, you know, we we have, ah, data center edge, right? We just think of it as, um, retail stores, Starbucks, right. They have a kind of a mini data center application running there. That's one kind of edge that people talk about. Then you have the kind of the telco edge, but a lot of the crossing of the five year data is happening, right? Where the cell tower, Selden. We're done. And then you have the devices. You just the cars, the You know what you have at home and we're not right. And then and we can play across all of these because we have the platform. I don't know if you know, but ah, v sphere, as the platform is, is embedded in many devices today. It's in the army. It's embarking leaders it. So it has a form factor that can live in all these devices. We certainly play in the data center, so we're well suited to play the >>piece for anywhere. >>Yeah, that is exactly right. >>I think we're already We're already at the data center edge, as we've talked about that is, it's a very common deployment use case for earlier versions of the sphere, and it will continue to be the value that you guys it's not not new at all. I think the telco edge is actually a very interesting one, particularly the five G switch over. So you know what's happening. There is. There's a whole radio access networks and you're looking at the V Ron as a big initiative there. Which is how do we bring virtualization as a service they're into into those networks? Container deployments becomes very important as well. So we actually have a platform with version seven that actually can give the telco edge and five G network deployments a much more secure, predictable runtime environment. So that's really powerful as well. And it's containers and VMS because many of those applications that are deployed a telco edge our container based applications. >>It's interesting, you know, we talk about stacks in our last segment and you guys talking about the news and now having all these stacks later on. But think about the evolution of the industry with cloud. A whole new sets of services are emerging mentioned Telco Edge. So it just looks different. What's the same kind of open model that open systems brought us, but just a little bit different? It's a distributed cloud security computer, same concepts, new new capabilities. >>Not just to add to that, I mean the biggest innovation John is happening in the hardware layer by the computer, sort of getting disaggregated. There is a lot of acceleration that is going on that are specialized chips, a six effigies that are being built into the servers and and memory's getting pulled outside because the interconnect is getting fast enough for those things to happen. And so a lot of the innovation that we do as a platform that we didn't talk about much today is really a data layer, because we had to virtual eyes all of that and provide it to the level. Of course, >>yeah, it's great. It's a great architecture. I think I just add more complexity that's coming and you guys can help. Abstract away is you just look at cybersecurity and the role of data. You got to get in front of all these these trends to get that automation dev ops going because without any automation and software is just people can't handle the inbounds. It's a big problem. >>Yeah, you really need, um, your platforms to provide intrinsic security. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be an option. It shouldn't be something the developers need to worry about. It should be something that's just part of the platform. And that's one of the things that we see is critical and actually built into Visa or seven. And you've seen that we've made a number of acquisitions recently. Actually, in the security piece, it's it's so that we can purposely build into your runtime environment, which is your VM environment container environment that we're running. We actually build in intrinsic security would build in a dynamic checking off the scope of an application in real time. Um, while those applications running, which is very key. >>Paul, >>Thanks for sharing all that great stuff. I want to get one final thought for both of you before we wrap up is we've been seeing and we've been reporting kind of the three ways of the cloud wave one was public. We all kind of know how that turned out. Awesome Cloud Native Born in the Cloud Wave two is well right now with a lot of intensity hybrid that's got a range of definitions. And then the third wave that's coming fast is multi cloud. So I want to get your thoughts on hybrid. A lot of energy, a lot of spend a lot of dollars investment in hard causing people in hybrid. I know we have different definitions. Is also different versions of hybrid. How do you define hybrid? And how does that become a path to the next wave? Or is it a path of next wave? What's your take? >>So it's absolutely the bad the next, I would say the hybrid, in our view, is the same platform running on which cloud do you want to use in our platform, as we talked about spans all the major clouds today giving the same operating model, and that's what we view as the hybrid cloud story. But the next one is the ability to mix native cloud workloads and services with that, and we already have a set of products and services that target that it's the times. A portfolio that I talked about is all focused on the multi cloud journey. So we kind of support both, and we're looking forward and aggressively going after the multi cloud. >>I think it's important to think of them as is completely complimentary of each other, right? A hybrid infrastructure platforms. So you know, a single I T organization can actually have one operating experience for their entire infrastructure, independent of Cloud Private Cloud Public Cloud Services. But Multi Cloud is about developers. It's about developers able to deploy their applications on any cloud environment that they need to, and they don't need to worry about infrastructure. So hybrid cloud is really about, ah, hybrid infrastructure that we can deploy everywhere, multi cloud and the services that we're providing to developers is all about how you could be independent of any cloud deployment that you want. It could be a hybrid infrastructure you deploy on. It could be on a standard public cloud service, >>and what's interesting is not. Not not all clouds are created equal. I mean, Amazon has much more capability in Azure and Google, but they're finding their swim lanes. But again it's all about the workload. The workload decides which cloud to work on. And that's right. You guys just agnostic? Yes, For the operator. Well, well, Thanks for the insight, guys. Appreciate you did a little post wrap of the news. Thanks for hiring. Thank you. Big news. These fear seven Q breakdown here. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching, >>right? Yeah.

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hello everyone and welcome to this week's wiki bond cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we want to dig into the so called multi-cloud arena some of the questions we're getting from our community are what is a multi cloud did we really need it what problems does multi-cloud solve and importantly what problems does it create how is this thing called multi cloud likely to evolve and who are some of the key players to watch how do they stack up relative to each other you know recently I got a couple of interesting questions from a customer that says I have all this AI action going on and doing sophisticated modeling and this data lives and oh clouds all over the place how do I cross connect to the data and the workloads that are running on these clouds with the consistence this consistent experience of what our other customers doing another question came up in the community today is there a financial advantage to multi cloud or is it just about avoiding lock-in so I'm gonna take a stab at addressing these questions so first of all let's look at some of the noise that's going on in the marketplace and try to extract a little signal every vendor especially the ones who don't own a cloud are touting this thing called multi cloud and they tell us that customers want to avoid lock-in and organizations want seamless integration across clouds and they say we the vendor are uniquely qualified to deliver that capability although as you can see here in for a not everybody agrees because some feel that multi cloud is less secure more complicated in higher cost now the reality is that one two and three are true as is for a to a certain degree but generally I would say that multi cloud to date is more of a symptom of multi vendor then a clear strategy but that's beginning to change and there's a substantial opportunity out there for anyone to win so let's explore this a little bit and an exclusive sit-down with aunty Jessie prior to reinvent 2019 John Fourier got Jessie to talk about this trend here's what he said we have a large number of companies who have gone all-in on AWS and that's growing but there's gonna be other companies who decide that they're going to use multiple clouds for different reasons you wouldn't have to say that the vast majority of organizations pursuing cloud tend to pick a predominant provider that it's not a 50/50 scenario it's rather it's more like a 70/30 or 8020 or even a 90/10 faria went on to write somewhat paraphrasing I think Jesse in my view it's not hard to find the reasons for using multiple clouds right is M&A there's shadow IT there's developer preference but it's really not multi cloud by design it's just more of the same Enterprise IT mishmash that we've seen for decades so I generally have to say I agree with that but it is changing and I want to dig into that a bit so first let me recap the basic premise that we work off of first cloud is winning in the marketplace we know this building data centers is not the best use of capital unless you're a data center operator or a hyper scaler or you know maybe a SAS provider maybe so more and more work is going to continue to move to the cloud this was pretty much the first wave of cloud if you will a cloud of remote infrastructure services for very obvious workloads like web test dev analytics and certain SAS offerings the second wave of cloud which we've been talking about for 15 years was or should I say is a hybrid connecting remote cloud services to on-prem workloads and the third wave which is really hitting somewhat in parallel is this thing that we call multi cloud now it's not a perfect analogy but these multi generational waves remind us of the early days of networking now some of you may remember that years ago the industry was comprised of multiple dominant vendors that control their own proprietary network stacks for example IBM had SN a digital or deck had decnet all the many computer vendors had their own proprietary nets now in the early to mid-1980s the OSI model emerged with the objective of creating interoperability amongst all these different communication systems and the idea was we're going to standardize on protocols and the model had seven layers all the way from the physical layer through the application but really in reality was a pipe dream because we were way too complicated and and it sort of assumed that customers are gonna rip and replace their existing networks and then standardize on the OSI model now in reality that was never gonna happen however what it did is it open the door for new companies and you saw firms like Cisco and 3com emerged with tcp/ip and Ethernet becoming standardized and enabling connections between these systems and it totally changed the industry as we now know it so what does this have to do with multi-cloud well today you kind of have a similar situation with dominant public cloud leaders like AWS and azure and in this analogy they are the proprietary siloed networks of the past like IBM and digital they're more open obviously but still ultimately customers are going to put workloads on the right cloud for the right job and that includes putting work on Prem and connecting it to the public cloud with call it a substantially similar and ideally identical experience that's what we call hybrid now that's today's big wave and you're seeing it with Amazon's outposts and VMware and Amazon and Azure stack etc so while all this hybrid action is getting wired up customers are putting work into AWS and Azure and certainly Google and IBM cloud and the Oracle cloud and so forth now customers are wanting to connect across clouds with a substantially similar experience because that reduces cost and of course it speeds business outcomes that's what we call multi cloud now I'm not by any means suggesting that Amazon and Microsoft are gonna go the way of the mini computer vendors I don't believe that I think leaders today are much more savvy and tuned into how to surf the waves they're more paranoid and they're frankly just smarter than back in the 70s and 80s but it's not a rite of passage if they ignore the trends they will face challenges that could become driftwood so you're seeing the emergence of some of the moves from the vendor crowd the big whales connecting their infrastructure like AWS and VMware and Microsoft and Oracle quite interesting and IBM Red Hat with everybody cisco Dell HPE with everyone Google with anthos and a lot of other players all are trying to stake a claim in this hybrid and multi cloud world but you also have these emerging players that are innovators companies like CrowdStrike in security cumulant in the backup space and many dozens of well-funded players looking to grab a share of this multi cloud pie and it's worth pointing out that they're all kind of going gaga over kubernetes now of course this makes sense because kubernetes has emerged as a standard it's certainly very popular with developers why because it enables portability and allows them to package applications and of course all they're related to tendencies around those applications and then hand that app off for testing or deployment and it's gonna behave in the exact same way as when they ran it locally this we've seen and we know this but I want to share something I had a great conversation with Bernard golden yesterday and he made an excellent point about well you know kubernetes and containers he said this portability is a necessary but insufficient condition for multi cloud to succeed you still have to have an integrated management approach to security ID management monitoring performance reporting and end get into cross-training of people and skills etc ok I want to shift gears and as always I want to dig into these segments and bring in the et our perspective now pretty sure ETR is a lot of data on multi cloud from their ven meetings and other surveys but what I've done today is pulled some data that I'm using is indicators or proxies for multi cloud so I can't go out and buy me some multi cloud today it doesn't really exist in that form so what we have to do is highlight some of the trends in the data and draw some inferences from that so let's take a look at this chart what it shows is the relative position of a number of companies that my view are participating in the multi cloud arena the chart plots these companies showing net score or remember spending momentum on the y-axis and we've just opposed that to what's called market share on the x-axis market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set and what we've done is we've filtered on three sectors cloud container orchestration and container platforms using that as a proxy for multi cloud so these are buyers 791 of them as you can see by the end who are spenders in these three areas and we're isolating on select group of names and as a last filter we selected only companies with 50 or more results in the data set from this survey and we're using this as a multi cloud sector proxy so let me make a couple of comments here first I know kubernetes is not a company but ETR captures spending on kubernetes it's one of the hottest areas in the data set with a nearly 82% net score so we're capturing that as a reference point the next thing I want to say is you can see the big cloud players Azure and AWS and once again as in previous breaking analysis segments we see those two look they're leaders they're out the lead both companies showing very very strong momentum from a net score standpoint now AWS you might say why are you including a diversity if they don't explicitly have a multi cloud offering but in my view you cannot talk about multi cloud without including the leading cloud supplier you also see Google not so much in the market share of the big two but Google's showing strong net score we've talked about that before and they're very well positioned in multi cloud with anthos there behind their playing cloud agnostic to try to catch up again remember this is a proxy that we are running it's not necessarily a reflection of firms specific multi cloud offerings it's an indicator based on the filters that we've run now let's take a look at some of the others rubric the data protection specialists and CrowdStrike was a security darling they show some real strengths both have multi cloud offerings and they have strategies around their look at how she Corp they stand out as an important player in our view as they provide developer tooling to run secure and and deploy applications across clouds VMware cloud is I believe it's a vfc VMware cloud foundation and it's right there in the mix and you can also see fortunate in there as well executing from a security position I talked about them last week in my braking analysis they have a nice cloud portfolio and they're benefiting from execution strong execution let me call your attention to IBM in Red Hat Red Hat OpenShift look at their respective positions on this chart IBM spending velocity or net score is low but Red Hat has quite strong spending velocity and this is CEO Arvind Krishna's opportunity leverage IBM's large install based presence shown here as market share or pervasiveness and bring red hat to the right and leverage open shifts coolness to increase IBM's relevance and elevate it elevated spending velocity if arvind can make the kind of progress that i'm showing here in this picture he'll end up being CEO of the decade but that really is IBM's opportunity you can also see I put Oracle in the chart as well because of their multi cloud relationship with Microsoft which which I actually think has great potential for running mission-critical Oracle databases as I've noted many times I've you know IBM and Oracle both have clouds they're in the cloud game there are hyper scalar clouds but they have very large installed software franchises why is that important because it insulates them from the I ass ix knife fight and the pricing pressures that are putting forth by the hyper scalars the finally I have to mention Cisco I've said many times comes at multi cloud from a position of strength and networking and of course security they've got a huge market presence and not without challenges but they clearly are a player here ok now let's go on and look at some similar proxy data basically the same cut isolated on a few big players participating in multi cloud so again same cut as before but this is this shows a time series isolating on some of those Biggie's showing their net score or spending momentum in cloud and container related sectors that I talked about you got Azure leading GCP showing momentum IBM Red Hat with open shift and VMware all with solid net scores that are in the green cisco not as strong from a net score or spending velocity standpoint but it's shared in or presence in the data set is significant in this cut so two takeaways here really are one this is a wide-open race it's jump ball you really can't pick a winner yet and to each is gonna come at this from their own unique position of strength which brings me to how we see this space evolving this simple chart here really shows how we see the multi cloud infrastructure stack emerging starting at the bottom we show in the stack networking you gotta have networking to cross connect clouds and this is where cisco you has to win the day not optional for them some big players are going after the control plane including Microsoft arc Google with anthos VMware with tans ooh IBM Red Hat and we think eventually AWS is a possibility to enter that game on the data plane you got some big whales like Dell EMC you got NetApp you've got HPE at IBM the big storage players as well you have specialists like pure who's doing some interesting things in block in the cloud and cumulonimbus mention you have a bunch of companies like Veritas cohesive the rubric vMac TIFIA is gonna be in there CommVault I mentioned Klum EO before IBM is another one you got a whole bunch of folks in networking big portfolio plays from the likes of Cisco I said to network I met security from Cisco Palo Alto fortunate along with many of the security specialists we've highlighted in the past like CrowdStrike and there are many many others now on the leftmost side of this chart is really interesting we showed the full stack interconnects here we're referring to the direct cloud to cloud connections in functions up and down the entire stack examples here are AWS VMware yes that hybrid but also emerging at the edge and Microsoft and Oracle so the bottom line is we're seeing a battle brewing between the big companies with larger appetites gobbling up major portions of the market with integrated suites that are playing out within each layer of the stack competing with smaller and nimble players that are delivering best to breed function along those stack layers all right let me summarize so here are the questions that I said I would answer let's see how I did what the heck is multi cloud well let me first say it feels like everything in IT is additive what do I mean by that well we never get rid of stuff you keep things forever think about it the typical enterprise has multiple data centers they get many SAS providers more likely they have you know more than one Iast provider and they're starting to think about what should I do with the edge there is no standard for hybrid or multi cloud deployments you talk to 100 customers and you're gonna hear 120 or 150 or 300 different environments and several orders of magnitude of challenges that they face do we really need multi-cloud not an ideal world no we wouldn't need multi cloud but we talked about how we got here earlier how real is it how real is multi cloud now look companies use multiple clouds it's is it easy to do things across scope these clouds no so it's one of these problems that the industry is created that it can now make money fixing it's a vicious cycle I know but so goes the enterprise IT business what problems does it does multi-cloud solve and create look the goal of multi cloud should be that it creates more value than just the sum of the individual parts and that is clearly not happening yet in my opinion moving data around is a problem so ultimately the value comes from being able to bring cloud services to data that resides all over the place and as Bernard golden implied even with kubernetes the experience is far from seamless so we understand that technology created this problem and IT people processes and technology will be asked to clean up the crime scene as I often say it's a common story in enterprise tech we talked about how multi-cloud will evolve along a stack that it comprises specialists and big companies with very big appetites my opinion is that multi-cloud will evolve as a mishmash and vendor relationships the right tools for the right job the edge IT and OT tensions mergers and acquisitions these are gonna create even a bigger mess down the road we have well-funded companies that are exceedingly capable in this business and the leaders are gonna get their fair share cloud is a trillion-dollar market opportunity and there will not be in my opinion a winner-take-all and multi cloud so who wins like I've tried to lay out some of the leaders within different parts of the stack but there's way more to this story I do believe that the cloud players are well positioned why cuz they're they invented cloud EWS and others who followed right now Microsoft and Google are playing actively in that market but I definitely think AWS will I that space but I think VMware Red Hat IBM Cisco etc some of this from the respective positions of strength and I've sort of they have the added benefit of being cloud semi agnostic because generally they're not wed to a hyper scale cloud you know IBM as a cloud oracle as a cloud but it's on a hyper scale cloud and as always there's specialists that are gonna solve problems that are too small initially for the big whales to see so they get a leader lead bleed to market advantage but those opportunities can grow over time and allow these guys to reach escape velocity now so I'll say multi-cloud in and of itself is I believe an opportunity one that will be attacked from a position of strength within the stack and there are opportunities to be specialists up and down that stack the Akashi Corp alright this is Dave Volante for wiki bonds cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching this breaking analysis and remember these episodes are available as podcasts you can check it out as you're driving your car wherever you listen to two podcasts you can connect with me at David Villante at Silicon angle calm or at D Volante on Twitter or please comment on my LinkedIn posts thanks for watching everyone we'll see you next time [Music]

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the cubes coverage here at in San Francisco, the Moscone center for RSA conference 2020 I'm job for your host. We are the very special guests, the COO of VMware, Sanjay Poonen, cube alumni. When you talk about security, talk about the modern enterprise as it transforms new use cases, new problems emerge. New opportunities exist here to break it down. Sanjay, welcome back. Thank you John. Always a pleasure to be on your show and I think it's my first time at RSA. We've talked a number of times, but nice to see you here. Well, it's a security guard. Well, this is really why I wanted you to talk, talk to you because operations is become now the big conversation around security. So you know, security was once part of it. It comes out and part of the board conversation, but when you look at security, all the conversations that we're seeing that are the most important conversations are almost a business model conversation. >>Almost like if you're the CEO of the company, you've got HR people, HR, organizational behavior, collaboration, technology, stack compliance and risk management. So the threat of cyber has to cut across now multiple operational functions of the business. It's no longer one thing, it's everything. So this is really kind of makes it the pressure of the business owners to be mindful of a bigger picture. And the attack velocity is happening so much faster, more volume of attacks, milliseconds and nanosecond attacks. So this is a huge, huge problem. I need you to break it down for me. >> Good. But then wonderful intro. No, I would say you're absolutely right. First off, security is a boardroom topic. Uh, audit committees are asking, you know, the CIO so often, you know, reports a report directly, sometimes, often not even to the CIO, to the head of legal or finance and often to the audit. >>So it's a boardroom topic then. You're right, every department right now cares about security because they've got both threat and security of nation state, all malicious, organized crime trying to come at them. But they've also got physical security mind. I mean, listen, growing a virus is a serious threat to our physical security. And we're really concerned about employees and the idea of a cyber security and physical security. We've put at VMware, cybersecurity and, and um, um, physical security. One guy, the CIO. So he actually runs vote. So I think you're absolutely right and if you're a head of HR, you care about your employees. If you're care ahead of communications, you care about your reputation and marketing the same way. If you're a finance, you care about your accounting systems and having all of the it systems that are. So we certainly think that holistic approach does, deserves a different approach to security, which is it can't be silo, silo, silo. >>It has to be intrinsic. And I've talked on your show about why intrinsic and how differentiated that intrinsic security, what I talked about this morning in my keynote. >> Well, and then again, the connect the dots there. It's not just security, it's the applications that are being built on mobile. For instance, I've got a mobile app. I have milliseconds, serious bond to whether something's yes or no. That's the app on mobile. But still the security threat is still over here and I've got the app over here. This is now the reality. And again, AirWatch was a big acquisition that you did. I also had some security. Carbon black was a $2 billion acquisition that VMware made. That's a security practice. How's it all coming together? Can you think of any questions? Blame the VMware because it's not just security, it's what's around it. >> Yeah. I think we began to see over the course of the last several years that there were certain control points and security that could help, you know, bring order to this chaos of 5,000 security vendors. >>They're all legitimate. They're all here at the show. They're good vendors. But you cannot, if you are trying to say healthy, go to a doctor and expect the doctor to tell you, eat 5,000 tablets and sailed. He just is not sustainable. It has to be baked into your diet. You eat your proteins, your vegetables, your fruit, your drink, your water. The same way we believe security needs to become intrinsically deeper parts, the platform. So what were the key platforms and control points? We decided to focus on the network, the endpoint, and you could think of endpoint as to both client and workload identity, cloud analytics. You take a few of those and network. We've been laboring the last seven years to build a definitive networking company and now a networking security company where we can do everything from data center networking, Dell firewalls to load balancing to SDN in this NSX platform. >>You remember where you bought an nice syrup. The industry woke up like what's VM ever doing in networking? We've now built on that 13,000 customers really good growing revenue business in networking and and now doing that working security. That space is fragmented across Cisco, Palo Alto, FIU, NetScaler, checkpoint Riverbed, VMware cleans that up. You get to the end point side. We saw the same thing. You know you had an endpoint management now workspace one the sequel of what AirWatch was, but endpoint security again, fragmented. You had Symantec McAfee, now CrowdStrike, tenable Qualis, you know, I mean just so many fragmented IOM. We felt like we could come in now and clean that up too, so I have to worry about to do >> well basically explaining that, but I want to get now to the next conversation point that I'm interested in operational impact because when you have all these things to operationalize, you saw that with dev ops and cloud now hybrid, you got to operationalize this stuff. >>You guys have been in the operations side of the business for our VMware. That's what you're known for and the developers and now on the horizon I gotta operationalize all the security. What do I do? I'm the CSO. I think it's really important that in understanding operations of the infrastructure, we have that control point called vSphere and we're now going to take carbon black and make it agentless on the silverside workloads, which has never been done before. That's operationalizing it at the infrastructure level. At the end point we're going to unify carbon black and workspace one into a unified agent, never been done before. That's operationalizing it on the client side. And then on the container and the dev ops site, you're going to start bringing security into the container world. We actually happened in our grade point of view in containers. You've seen us do stuff with Tansu and Kubernetes and pivotal. >>Bringing that together and data security is a very logical thing that we will add there. So we have a very good view of where the infrastructure and operations parts that we know well, a vSphere, NSX workspace one containers with 10 Xu, we're going to bring security to all of them and then bake it more and more in so it's not feeling like it's a point tool. The same platform, carbon black will be able to handle the security of all of those use cases. One platform, several use cases. Are you happy with the carbon black acquisition? Listen, you know, you stay humble and hungry. Uh, John for a fundamental reason, I've been involved with number of acquisitions from my SAP VMware days, billion dollar plus. We've done talking to us. The Harvard business review had an article several years ago, which Carney called acquisitions and majority of them fail and they feel not because of process of product they feel because good people leave. >>One of the things that we have as a recipe does acquisition. We applied that to AirWatch, we apply the deny Sera. There is usually some brain trust. You remember in the days of nice area, it was my team Cosato and the case of AirWatch. It was John Marshall and that team. We want to preserve that team to help incubate this and then what breve EV brings a scale, so I'm delighted about Patrick earlier. I want to have him on your show next time because he's now the head of our security business unit. He's culturally a fit for the mr. humble, hungry. He wants to see just, we were billion dollar business now with security across networking endpoint and then he wants to take just he's piece of it, right? The common black piece of it, make it a billion dollar business while the overall security business goes from three to five. >>And I think we're going to count them for many years to come to really be a key part of VMware's fabric, a great leader. So we're successful. If he's successful, what's my job then? He reports to me is to get all the obstacles out of the way. Get every one of my core reps to sell carbon black. Every one of the partners like Dell to sell carbon black. So one of the deals we did within a month is Dell has now announced that their preferred solution on at Dell laptops, this carbon bike, they will work in the past with silence and crowd CrowdStrike. Now it's common black every day laptop now as a default option. That's called blank. So as we do these, John, the way we roll is one on here to basically come in and occupy that acquisition, get the obstacles out of the way, and that let Patrick scaled us the same way. >>Martine Casado or jumbo. So we have a playbook. We're gonna apply that playbook. Stay humble and hungry. And you ask me that question every year. How are we doing a carbon black? I will be saying, I love you putting a check on you. It will be checking in when we've done an AirWatch. What do you think? Pretty good. Very good. I think good. Stayed line to the radar. Kept growing. It's top right. Known every magic quadrant. That business is significant. Bigger than the 100 million while nice here. How do we do a nice hero? NSX? It's evolved quite a bit. It's evolved. So this is back to the point. VMware makes bets. So unlike other acquisitions where they're big numbers, still big numbers, billions or billions, but they're bets. AirWatch was a good bet. Turned out okay. That the betting, you're being conservative today anyway. That's it. You're making now. >>How would you classify those bets? What are the big bets that you're making right now? Listen, >> I think there's, um, a handful of them. I like to think of things as no more than three to five. We're making a big bet. A multi-cloud. Okay. The world is going to be private, public edge. You and us have talked a lot about VMware. AWS expanded now to Azure and others. We've a big future that private cloud, public cloud edge number two, we're making a big bet on AB motorization with the container level 10 zoos. I think number three, we're making a big bet in virtual cloud networking cause we think longterm there's going to be only two networking companies in matter, VMware and Cisco. Number four, we're making a big bet in the digital workspace and build on what we've done with AirWatch and other technologies. Number five, and make it a big bet security. >>So these five we think of what can take the company from 10 to 20 billion. So we, you know, uh, we, we've talked about the $10 billion Mark. Um, and the next big milestone for the company is a 20 billion ball Mark. And you have to ask yourself, can you see this company with these five bets going from where they are about a 10 billion revenue company to 20. Boom. We hope again, >> Dave, a lot that's doing a braking and now he might've already shipped the piece this morning on multi-cloud. Um, he and I were commenting that, well, I said it's the third wave of cloud computing, public cloud, hybrid multi-cloud and hybrids, the first step towards multi-cloud. Everyone kind of knows that. Um, but I want to ask you, because I told Dave and we kind of talked about this is a multi-decade growth opportunity, wealth creation, innovation, growth, new opportunity multicloud for the generation. >>Take the, this industry the next level. How do you see that multicloud wave? Do you agree on the multigenerational and if so, what specifically do you see that unfolding into this? And I'm deeply inspired by what Andy Jassy, Satya Nadella, you know, the past leading up to Thomas Korea and these folks are creating big cloud businesses. Amazon's the biggest, uh, in the iOS pass world. Azure is second, Google is third, and just market shares. These folks collectively are growing, growing really well. In some senses, VM-ware gets to feed off that ecosystem in the public cloud. So we are firm believers in what you're described. Hybrid cloud is the pot to the multicloud. We coined that term hybrid thought. In fact, the first incantation of eco there was called via cloud hybrid service. So we coined the term hybrid cloud, but the world is not multi-cloud. The the, the key though is that I don't think you're gonna walk away from those three clouds I mentioned have deep pockets. >>Then none of them are going away and they're going to compete hard with each other. The market shares may stay the same. Our odd goal is to be a Switzerland player that can help our customers take VM or workloads, optimize them in the private cloud first. Okay? When a bank of America says on their earnings caller, Brian Warren and said, I can run a private cloud better than a public cloud and I can save 2 billion doing that, okay? It turns off any of the banks are actually running on VMware. That's their goal. But there are other companies like Freddie Mac, we're going all in with Amazon. We want to ride the best of both worlds. If you're a private cloud, we're going to make you the most efficient private cloud, VMware software, well public cloud, and going to Amazon like a Freddie Mac will help you ride your apps into that through VMware. >>So sometimes history can be a predictor of future behavior. And just to kind of rewind the computer industry clock, if you looked at mainframe mini-computers, inter networking, internet proprietary network operating systems dominated it, but you saw the shift and it was driven by choice for customers, multiple vendors, interoperability. So to me, I think cloud multicloud is going to come down to the best choice for the workload and then the environment of the business. And that's going to be a spectrum. But the key in that is multi-vendor, multi, a friend choice, multi-vendor, interoperability. This is going to be the next equation in the modern error. It's not gonna look the same as mainframe mini's networking, but it'll create the next Cisco, the create the next new brand that may or may not be out there yet that might be competing with you or you might be that next brand. >>So interoperability, multi-vendor choice has been a theme in open systems for a long time. Your reactions, I think it's absolutely right, John, you're onto something there. Listen, the multicloud world is almost a replay of the multi hardware system world. 20 years ago, if you asked who was a multi hardware player before, it was Dell, HP at the time, IBM, now, Lenovo, EMC, NetApp, so and so forth and Silva storage, networking. The multicloud world today is Amazon, Azure, Google. If you go to China, Alibaba, so on and so forth. A Motiva somebody has to be a Switzerland player that can serve the old hardware economy and the new hardware economy, which is the, which is the cloud and then of course, don't forget the device economy of Apple, Google, Microsoft, there too. I think that if you have some fundamental first principles, you expressed one of them. >>Listen where open source exists, embrace it. That's why we're going big on Kubernetes. If there are multiple clouds, embrace it. Do what's right for the customer, abstract away. That's what virtualization is. Managed common infrastructure across Ahmed, which is what our management principles are, secure things. At the point of every device and every workload. So those are the principles. Now the engineering of it changes. The way in which we're doing virtualization today in 2020 is slightly different from when Diane started the company and around the year 2020 years ago. But the principals are saying, we're just not working just with the hardware vendors working toward the cloud vendors. So using choices where it's at, the choice is what they want. Absolutely, absolutely. And you're right. It's choice because it was the big workloads. We see, for example, Amazon having a headstart in the public cloud markets, but there's some use cases where Azure is applicable. >>Some use his word, Google's applicable, and to us, if the entire world was only one hardware player or only one cloud player, only one device player, you don't need VMware. We thrive in heterogeneity. It's awesome. I love that word. No heterogeneity provides not 3000 vendors. There's almost three, three of every kind, three silver vendors, three storage vendors, three networking vendors, three cloud vendors, three device vendors. We was the middle of all of it. And yeah, there may be other companies who tried to do that too. If they are, we should learn from them, do it better than them. And competition even to us is a good thing. All right. My final question for you is in the, yeah, the Dell technologies family of which VMware is a part of, although big part of it, the crown jewel as we've been calling them the cube, they announced RSA is being sold to a private equity company. >>What's the general reaction amongst VMware folks and the, and the Dell technology family? Good move, no impact. What we support Dell and you know, all the moves that they've made. Um, and from our perspective, you know, if we're not owning it, we're going to partner it. So I see no overlap with RSA. We partner with them. They've got three core pillars, secure ID, net witness and Archer. We partnered with them very well. We have no aspirations to get into those aspects of governance. Risk and compliance or security has been, so it's a partner. So whoever's running it, Rohit runs on very well. He also owns the events conference. We have a great relationship and then we'll keep doing that. Well, we are focused in the areas I described, network, endpoint security. And I think what Michael has done brilliantly through the course of the last few years is set up a hardware and systems company in Dell and allow the software company called Vima to continue to operate. >>And I think, you know, the movement of some of these assets between the companies like pivotal to us and so on and so forth, cleans it up so that now you've got both these companies doing well. Dell has gone public, we Hammer's gone public and he has said on the record, what's good for Dell is good, what's good for VMware and vice versa and good for the customer. And I think the key is there's no visibility on what cloud native looks like. Hybrid, public, multi, multi, not so much. But you get almost, it's an easy bridge to get across and get there. AI, cyber are all big clear trends. They're waves. Sasha. Great. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Um, your thoughts on the security show here. Uh, what's your, what's your take to, uh, definitive security shows? I hope it stays that way. Even with the change of where RSA is. >>Ownership goes is this conference in black hat and we play in both, uh, Amazon's conference. I was totally starting to, uh, reinforce, reinforce cloud security will show up there too. Uh, but we, we think, listen, there's what, 30,000 people here. So it's a force. It's a little bit like VMworld. We will play here. We'll play a big, we've got, you know, it just so happens because the acquisition happened before we told them, but we have two big presences here. We were at carbon black, um, and it's an important business for us. And I said, like I said, we have $1 billion business and security today by 30,000 customers using us in a security network, endpoints cloud. I want to take that to be a multi, multiple times that size. And I think there's a pot to do that because it's an adjacent us and security. So we have our own kind of selfish motives here in terms of getting more Mindshare and security. >>We did a keynote this morning, which was well received with Southwest airlines. She did a great job. Carrie Miller, she was a fantastic speaker and it was our way of showing in 20 minutes, not just to our point of view, because you don't want to be self serving a practitioner's point of view. And that's what's really important. Well finally on a personal note, um, you know, I always use the term tech athlete, which I think you are one, you really work hard and smart, but I got to get your thoughts. But then I saw you're not on Twitter. I'm on. When IBM announced a new CEO, Arvin, um, fishnet Indian American, another CEO, this is a pattern. We're starting to see Indian American CEOs running cup American companies because this is the leadership and it's really a great thing in my mind, I think is one of the most successful stories of meritocracy of all time. >>You're quick. I'm a big fan of oven, big fan of Shantanu, Sundar Pichai, something that Ellen, many of them are close friends of mine. Uh, many of them have grown up in Southern India. We're a different ages. Some of them are older than me and in many cases, you know, we were falling behind other great players like Vino Cosla who came even 10 to 15 years prior. And you know, it's hard for an immigrant in this country. You know, um, when I first got here and I came as an immigrant to Dartmouth college, there may have been five or 10 Brown skin people in the town of Hanover, New Hampshire. I don't know if you've been to New Hampshire. I've been there, there's not many at that time. And then the late 1980s, now of course, there's much more, uh, so, you know, uh, we stay humble and hungry. >>There's a part of our culture in India that's really valued education and hard work and people like Arvin and some of these other people are products. I look up to them, the things I learned from them. And um, you know, it's true of India. It's a really good thing to see these people be successful at name brand American companies, whether it's IBM or Microsoft or Google or Adobe or MasterCard. So we're, we're, I'm in that fan club and there's a lot I learned from that. I just love being around people who love entrepreneurship, love innovation, love technology, and work hard. So congratulations. Thank you so much for your success. Great to see you again soon as you put in the COO of VM-ware here on the ground floor here at RSA conference at Moscone, sharing his insight into the security practice that is now carbon black and VMware. All the good things that are going on there. Thanks for watching.