(bright upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm your host, John Furrier here in Palo Alto, California Studio and remoting is a great guest CUBE alumni, co-founder, technical co-founder and she's also the VP of Product at Platform9 Systems. It's a company pioneering Kubernetes infrastructure, been doing it for a long, long time. Madhura Maskasky, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. Always exciting. >> So I always... I love interviewing you for many reasons. One, you're super smart, but also you're a co-founder, a technical co-founder, so entrepreneur, VP of product. It's hard to do startups. (John laughs) Okay, so everyone who started a company knows how hard it is. It really is and the rewarding too when you're successful. So I want to get your thoughts on what's it like being an entrepreneur, women in tech, some things you've done along the way. Let's get started. How did you get into your career in tech and what made you want to start a company? >> Yeah, so , you know, I got into tech long, long before I decided to start a company. And back when I got in tech it was very clear to me as a direction for my career that I'm never going to start a business. I was very explicit about that because my father was an entrepreneur and I'd seen how rough the journey can be. And then my brother was also and is an entrepreneur. And I think with both of them I'd seen the ups and downs and I had decided to myself and shared with my family that I really want a very well-structured sort of job at a large company type of path for my career. I think the tech path, tech was interesting to me, not because I was interested in programming, et cetera at that time, to be honest. When I picked computer science as a major for myself, it was because most of what you would consider, I guess most of the cool students were picking that as a major, let's just say that. And it sounded very interesting and cool. A lot of people were doing it and that was sort of the top, top choice for people and I decided to follow along. But I did discover after I picked computer science as my major, I remember when I started learning C++ the first time when I got exposure to it, it was just like a light bulb clicking in my head. I just absolutely loved the language, the lower level nature, the power of it, and what you can do with it, the algorithms. So I think it ended up being a really good fit for me. >> Yeah, so it clicked for you. You tried it, it was all the cool kids were doing it. I mean, I can relate, I did the same thing. Next big thing is computer science, you got to be in there, got to be smart. And then you get hooked on it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What was the next level? Did you find any blockers in your way? Obviously male dominated, it must have been a lot of... How many females were in your class? What was the ratio at that time? >> Yeah, so the ratio was was pretty, pretty, I would say bleak when it comes to women to men. I think computer science at that time was still probably better compared to some of the other majors like mechanical engineering where I remember I had one friend, she was the single girl in an entire class of about at least 120, 130 students or so. So ratio was better for us. I think there were maybe 20, 25 girls in our class. It was a large class and maybe the number of men were maybe three X or four X number of women. So relatively better. Yeah. >> How about the job when you got into the structured big company? How did that go? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think that was a pretty smooth path I would say after, you know, you graduated from undergrad to grad school and then when I got into Oracle first and VMware, I think both companies had the ratios were still, you know, pretty off. And I think they still are to a very large extent in this industry, but I think this industry in my experience does a fantastic job of, you know, bringing everybody and kind of embracing them and treating them at the same level. That was definitely my experience. And so that makes it very easy for self-confidence, for setting up a path for yourself to thrive. So that was it. >> Okay, so you got an undergraduate degree, okay, in computer science and a master's from Stanford in databases and distributed systems. >> That's right. >> So two degrees. Was that part of your pathway or you just decided, "I want to go right into school?" Did it go right after each other? How did that work out? >> Yeah, so when I went into school, undergrad there was no special major and I didn't quite know if I liked a particular subject or set of subjects or not. Even through grad school, first year it wasn't clear to me, but I think in second year I did start realizing that in general I was a fan of backend systems. I was never a front-end person. The backend distributed systems really were of interest to me because there's a lot of complex problems to solve, and especially databases and large scale distributed systems design in the context of database systems, you know, really started becoming a topic of interest for me. And I think luckily enough at Stanford there were just fantastic professors like Mendel Rosenblum who offered operating system class there, then started VMware and later on I was able to join the company and I took his class while at school and it was one of the most fantastic classes I've ever taken. So they really had and probably I think still do a fantastic curriculum when it comes to distributor systems. And I think that probably helped stoke that interest. >> How do you talk to the younger girls out there in elementary school and through? What's the advice as they start to get into computer science, which is changing and still evolving? There's backend, there's front-end, there's AI, there's data science, there's no code, low code, there's cloud. What's your advice when they say what's the playbook? >> Yeah, so I think two things I always say, and I share this with anybody who's looking to get into computer science or engineering for that matter, right? I think one is that it's, you know, it's important to not worry about what that end specialization's going to be, whether it's AI or databases or backend or front-end. It does naturally evolve and you lend yourself to a path where you will understand, you know, which systems, which aspect you like better. But it's very critical to start with getting the fundamentals well, right? Meaning all of the key coursework around algorithm, systems design, architecture, networking, operating system. I think it is just so crucial to understand those well, even though at times you make question is this ever going to be relevant and useful to me later on in my career? It really does end up helping in ways beyond, you know, you can describe. It makes you a much better engineer. So I think that is the most important aspect of, you know, I would think any engineering stream, but definitely true for computer science. Because there's also been a trend more recently, I think, which I'm not a big fan of, of sort of limited scoped learning, which is you decide early on that you're going to be, let's say a front-end engineer, which is fine, you know. Understanding that is great, but if you... I don't think is ideal to let that limit the scope of your learning when you are an undergrad phrase or grad school. Because later on it comes back to sort of bite you in terms of you not being able to completely understand how the systems work. >> It's a systems kind of thinking. You got to have that mindset of, especially now with cloud, you got distributed systems paradigm going to the edge. You got 5G, Mobile World Congress recently happened, you got now all kinds of IOT devices out there, IP of devices at the edge. Distributed computing is only getting more distributed. >> That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. But the other thing is also happens... That happens in computer science is that the abstraction layers keep raising things up and up and up. Where even if you're operating at a language like Java, which you know, during some of my times of programming there was a period when it was popular, it already abstracts you so far away from the underlying system. So it can become very easier if you're doing, you know, Java script or UI programming that you really have no understanding of what's happening behind the scenes. And I think that can be pretty difficult. >> Yeah. It's easy to lean in and rely too heavily on the abstractions. I want to get your thoughts on blockers. In your career, have you had situations where it's like, "Oh, you're a woman, okay seat at the table, sit on the side." Or maybe people misunderstood your role. How did you deal with that? Did you have any of that? >> Yeah. So, you know, I think... So there's something really kind of personal to me, which I like to share a few times, which I think I believe in pretty strongly. And which is for me, sort of my personal growth began at a very early phase because my dad and he passed away in 2012, but throughout the time when I was growing up, I was his special little girl. And every little thing that I did could be a simple test. You know, not very meaningful but the genuine pride and pleasure that he felt out of me getting great scores in those tests sort of et cetera, and that I could see that in him, and then I wanted to please him. And through him, I think I build that confidence in myself that I am good at things and I can do good. And I think that just set the building blocks for me for the rest of my life, right? So, I believe very strongly that, you know, yes, there are occasions of unfair treatment and et cetera, but for the most part, it comes from within. And if you are able to be a confident person who is kind of leveled and understands and believes in your capabilities, then for the most part, the right things happen around you. So, I believe very strongly in that kind of grounding and in finding a source to get that for yourself. And I think that many women suffer from the biggest challenge, which is not having enough self-confidence. And I've even, you know, with everything that I said, I've myself felt that, experienced that a few times. And then there's a methodical way to get around it. There's processes to, you know, explain to yourself that that's actually not true. That's a fake feeling. So, you know, I think that is the most important aspect for women. >> I love that. Get the confidence. Find the source for the confidence. We've also been hearing about curiosity and building, you mentioned engineering earlier, love that term. Engineering something, like building something. Curiosity, engineering, confidence. This brings me to my next question for you. What do you think the key skills and qualities are needed to succeed in a technical role? And how do you develop to maintain those skills over time? >> Yeah, so I think that it is so critical that you love that technology that you are part of. It is just so important. I mean, I remember as an example, at one point with one of my buddies before we started Platform9, one of my buddies, he's also a fantastic computer scientists from VMware and he loves video games. And so he said, "Hey, why don't we try to, you know, hack up a video game and see if we can take it somewhere?" And so, it sounded cool to me. And then so we started doing things, but you know, something I realized very quickly is that I as a person, I absolutely hate video games. I've never liked them. I don't think that's ever going to change. And so I was miserable. You know, I was trying to understand what's going on, how to build these systems, but I was not enjoying it. So, I'm glad that I decided to not pursue that. So it is just so important that you enjoy whatever aspect of technology that you decide to associate yourself with. I think that takes away 80, 90% of the work. And then I think it's important to inculcate a level of discipline that you are not going to get sort of... You're not going to get jaded or, you know, continue with happy path when doing the same things over and over again, but you're not necessarily challenging yourself, or pushing yourself, or putting yourself in uncomfortable situation. I think a combination of those typically I think works pretty well in any technical career. >> That's a great advice there. I think trying things when you're younger, or even just for play to understand whether you abandon that path is just as important as finding a good path because at least you know that skews the value in favor of the choices. Kind of like math probability. So, great call out there. So I have to ask you the next question, which is, how do you keep up to date given all the changes? You're in the middle of a world where you've seen personal change in the past 10 years from OpenStack to now. Remember those days when I first interviewed you at OpenStack, I think it was 2012 or something like that. Maybe 10 years ago. So much changed. How do you keep up with technologies in your field and resources that you rely on for personal development? >> Yeah, so I think when it comes to, you know, the field and what we are doing for example, I think one of the most important aspect and you know I am product manager and this is something I insist that all the other product managers in our team also do, is that you have to spend 50% of your time talking to prospects, customers, leads, and through those conversations they do a huge favor to you in that they make you aware of the other things that they're keeping an eye on as long as you're doing the right job of asking the right questions and not just, you know, listening in. So I think that to me ends up being one of the biggest sources where you get tidbits of information, new things, et cetera, and then you pursue. To me, that has worked to be a very effective source. And then the second is, you know, reading and keeping up with all of the publications. You guys, you know, create a lot of great material, you interview a lot of people, making sure you are watching those for us you know, and see there's a ton of activities, new projects keeps coming along every few months. So keeping up with that, listening to podcasts around those topics, all of that helps. But I think the first one I think goes in a big way in terms of being aware of what matters to your customers. >> Awesome. Let me ask you a question. What's the most rewarding aspect of your job right now? >> So, I think there are many. So I think I love... I've come to realize that I love, you know, the high that you get out of being an entrepreneur independent of, you know, there's... In terms of success and failure, there's always ups and downs as an entrepreneur, right? But there is this... There's something really alluring about being able to, you know, define, you know, path of your products and in a way that can potentially impact, you know, a number of companies that'll consume your products, employees that work with you. So that is, I think to me, always been the most satisfying path, is what kept me going. I think that is probably first and foremost. And then the projects. You know, there's always new exciting things that we are working on. Even just today, there are certain projects we are working on that I'm super excited about. So I think it's those two things. >> So now we didn't get into how you started. You said you didn't want to do a startup and you got the big company. Your dad, your brother were entrepreneurs. How did you get into it? >> Yeah, so, you know, it was kind of surprising to me as well, but I think I reached a point of VMware after spending about eight years or so where I definitely packed hold and I could have pushed myself by switching to a completely different company or a different organization within VMware. And I was trying all of those paths, interviewed at different companies, et cetera, but nothing felt different enough. And then I think I was very, very fortunate in that my co-founders, Sirish Raghuram, Roopak Parikh, you know, Bich, you've met them, they were kind of all at the same journey in their careers independently at the same time. And so we would all eat lunch together at VMware 'cause we were on the same team and then we just started brainstorming on different ideas during lunchtime. And that's kind of how... And we did that almost for a year. So by the time that the year long period went by, at the end it felt like the most logical, natural next step to leave our job and to, you know, to start off something together. But I think I wouldn't have done that had it not been for my co-founders. >> So you had comfort with the team as you knew each other at VMware, but you were kind of a little early, (laughing) you had a vision. It's kind of playing out now. How do you feel right now as the wave is hitting? Distributed computing, microservices, Kubernetes, I mean, stuff you guys did and were doing. I mean, it didn't play out exactly, but directionally you were right on the line there. How do you feel? >> Yeah. You know, I think that's kind of the challenge and the fun part with the startup journey, right? Which is you can never predict how things are going to go. When we kicked off we thought that OpenStack is going to really take over infrastructure management space and things kind of went differently, but things are going that way now with Kubernetes and distributed infrastructure. And so I think it's been interesting and in every path that you take that does end up not being successful teaches you so much more, right? So I think it's been a very interesting journey. >> Yeah, and I think the cloud, certainly AWS hit that growth right at 2013 through '17, kind of sucked all the oxygen out. But now as it reverts back to this abstraction layer essentially makes things look like private clouds, but they're just essentially DevOps. It's cloud operations, kind of the same thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. And then with the edge things are becoming way more distributed where having a single large cloud provider is becoming even less relevant in that space and having kind of the central SaaS based management model, which is what we pioneered, like you said, we were ahead of the game at that time, is becoming sort of the most obvious choice now. >> Now you look back at your role at Stanford, distributed systems, again, they have world class program there, neural networks, you name it. It's really, really awesome. As well as Cal Berkeley, there was in debates with each other, who's better? But that's a separate interview. Now you got the edge, what are some of the distributed computing challenges right now with now the distributed edge coming online, industrial 5G, data? What do you see as some of the key areas to solve from a problem statement standpoint with edge and as cloud goes on-premises to essentially data center at the edge, apps coming over the top AI enabled. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, so I think... And there's different flavors of edge and the one that we focus on is, you know, what we call thick edge, which is you have this problem of managing thousands of as we call it micro data centers, rather than managing maybe few tens or hundreds of large data centers where the problem just completely shifts on its head, right? And I think it is still an unsolved problem today where whether you are a retailer or a telecommunications vendor, et cetera, managing your footprints of tens of thousands of stores as a retailer is solved in a very archaic way today because the tool set, the traditional management tooling that's designed to manage, let's say your data centers is not quite, you know, it gets retrofitted to manage these environments and it's kind of (indistinct), you know, round hole kind of situation. So I think the top most challenges are being able to manage this large footprint of micro data centers in the most effective way, right? Where you have latency solved, you have the issue of a small footprint of resources at thousands of locations, and how do you fit in your containerized or virtualized or other workloads in the most effective way? To have that solved, you know, you need to have the security aspects around these environments. So there's a number of challenges that kind of go hand-in-hand, like what is the most effective storage which, you know, can still be deployed in that compact environment? And then cost becomes a related point. >> Costs are huge 'cause if you move data, you're going to have cost. If you move compute, it's not as much. If you have an operating system concept, is the data and state or stateless? These are huge problems. This is an operating system, don't you think? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a distributed operating system where it's multiple layers, you know, of ways of solving that problem just in the context of data like you said having an intermediate caching layer so that you know, you still do just in time processing at those edge locations and then send some data back and that's where you can incorporate some AI or other technologies, et cetera. So, you know, just data itself is a multi-layer problem there. >> Well, it's great to have you on this program. Advice final question for you, for the folks watching technical degrees, most people are finding out in elementary school, in middle school, a lot more robotics programs, a lot more tech exposure, you know, not just in Silicon Valley, but all around, you're starting to see that. What's your advice for young girls and people who are getting either coming into the workforce re-skilled as they get enter, it's easy to enter now as they stay in and how do they stay in? What's your advice? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think it's the same goal. I have two little daughters and it's the same principle I try to follow with them, which is I want to give them as much exposure as possible without me having any predefined ideas about what you know, they should pursue. But it's I think that exposure that you need to find for yourself one way or the other, because you really never know. Like, you know, my husband landed into computer science through a very, very meandering path, and then he discovered later in his career that it's the absolute calling for him. It's something he's very good at, right? But so... You know, it's... You know, the reason why he thinks he didn't pick that path early is because he didn't quite have that exposure. So it's that exposure to various things, even things you think that you may not be interested in is the most important aspect. And then things just naturally lend themselves. >> Find your calling, superpower, strengths. Know what you don't want to do. (John chuckles) >> Yeah, exactly. >> Great advice. Thank you so much for coming on and contributing to our program for International Women's Day. Great to see you in this context. We'll see you on theCUBE. We'll talk more about Platform9 when we go KubeCon or some other time. But thank you for sharing your personal perspective and experiences for our audience. Thank you. >> Fantastic. Thanks for having me, John. Always great. >> This is theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day, I'm John Furrier. We're talking to the leaders in the industry, from developers to the boardroom and everything in between and getting the stories out there making an impact. Thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of Women in Tech, Global Event, celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. We got two great guests. Cindy Polin, head of Solution Architects for Public Sector in Mexico for AWS. And Fernanda Spinardi, who's also the head of Solution Architects for Public Sector in Brazil, both with AWS. Thanks for coming, appreciate your time. >> Thanks for the invitation. >> Thank you, John. >> So we're celebrating International Women's Day this week, and this month, and pretty much every day, I think we're going to be doing a lot of good stuff. But today's a special day. And talking about people's careers, their roles, the gender gap, is a big theme this year. These are all the topics that are going on and being discussed. So, it's a been a lot of fun when learning a lot, I have to ask you guys with AWS, Cindy we'll start with you. How is AWS addressing the gender gap in its technical teams? Because solution architects, they're technical. And we need more women in there. How is AWS addressing the gender gap with its technical teams? >> Yes, for sure, thank you very much. Let me start with a quick note about what is the situation in Mexico. Let me go first into a report published by IMCO, and this is talking about this gender gaps in a STEM career. So let me tell you that three out of 10 professionals who choose careers related with the STEM, with the science technology, engineering and mathematics, are women. So, can you imagine this difference, It's really critical because for sure, we have few women. And in the moment that you try to reach people, to be part of the company, it's difficult. So it's important for AWS to be very very supportive in this initiative and also to be supporting diverse teams. So, that's why we are very supportive in bringing diverse talent in the company. >> There's a lot of focus on getting people early into the pipe lining. Is that some another big area? Did the study show anything there? >> Well, basically it's that we are studying to push harder, to bring more information to the ladies, to the women in general. And also to start developing the technical skills. Because it's really difficult and in the moment that you try to do this, it start like seeing these behaviors or stigmas about this is only for men, it's not for women. So we are trying to start breaking this point in general. >> Fernanda, we had a great chat about Latin America reinvent on theCUBE with your leader over there and, we were talking about the broader community and how you guys are partnering with external organizations and customers. How is Amazon Web Services, AWS, aiming to foster better balance and gender balance and technology partnerships in Latin America? >> Sure, so while the situation in Brazil is not different from the situation that Cindy was mentioning in Mexico right? Our research shows that women only represent around 37% of the workforce where in the country we have over 51-52% of women as part of our population. While we can take this from a gap perspective, also, we can take it from an opportunity perspective. There is such a huge unexplored workforce that we can bring to be part of AWS in the technology world, right? So for us on AWS and Amazon, it's part part of our day one culture. So we are still learning, right? And we are still trying, experimenting to see how we can bring more women to the tech world. One of the things that we are investing in Brazil and in Latin America, are the early in career talent programs. This is something that we have the opportunity to work with the students. And in LATAM, it's a little bit different from the US. We have the opportunity to work with them for one year sometimes for two years in a role while they work they are still in the university and we prepare that talent really early in their career and bring them to be part of Amazon. So yeah, I'm super excited with those programs, I can, talk more about it, but this is one of the initiatives that we are betting that will maybe be a game changer for us in the technology. >> Yeah, those are very interesting stats, 37% of the workers in country where women represent over half of the population. So definitely a lot of work to be done. I got to ask both of you. Amazon has a leadership principle that says that they want to strive to be the world's, or earth's best employer earth being, Earth Day and all that sustainability as well. Diversity, inclusion and equity is a big part of that mission more. And also Amazon's also known for high performing work environment. So, so having the best diversity and inclusion you know, is a, is a, as some say and many are saying is a force multiplier in performance. How is that going in your areas? Can you talk about how the culture that you're in, the countries that you're in and the Amazonian leadership principles tie together? Can you share your thoughts and experiences? >> Sure. I can, I can get started maybe with that one. So, although we have a new leadership principle from my perspective, we have we have always had leadership principles that foster diversity and, and inclusion, right. Pick up, earn trust as an example like it says, listen carefully, right. And speak candidly, this is for me it's the baseline for any, any inclusion conversation. Right. And also you have things like have backbone, disagree and commit. Like you are empowering people to actually have an opinion and bring back that opinion and be heard. Right. So it was already there. I think the thing now is that we have a very specific leadership principle so that there is no, no room for interpretation. Right. It's right there saying that there is a mission a mission to, to be the best employer. Right. And, and I'm, I'm very excited about it. >> John: Cindy, share your thoughts too. I like that comment because you know, Amazon culture's known for, you know, debate then align. Okay. And now you got that cultural factor. Now it's in the leadership principle. What's your reaction? >> Yes. And, and let me add a comment on that about Fernanda's point is that this LP is giving us like the empower to give this environment to prepare, to to give this space to the team and also to be more creative. And also to be more diverse is really important for us to have this space with a lot of empathy, with the in the space to have a lot of fun. And it's important to keep all the time in mind that are we doing the right thing for our employees? Are we are empowering them to be the best of, of the world? So, that is something that is critical for us and, and well that is something that we are right now working on it. >> Okay. So first of all I'm very impressed by both of you. You're inspiring. And I can also tell you that being a solution architect is not an easy job. But it's also in high demand. A lot of people want to, they need solution architects. It's one of the most coveted positions in the industry right now. So how do we get more women in that role? What ideas do you guys have besides being great role models, yourselves? How do we get more solution architects? Because it's super valuable and everyone wants to hire them. >> Fernanda, did you want to start? >> It's you guys. >> You touched a very important point, John. It's about having, having good examples. Like, I mean, it's about you seeing yourself in the role right? You, you believing that it's, it's possible. It's for everyone. If you have a spirit where you, you want to build things if you have this spirit of exploring new possibilities if you like to experiment, well, then you have all that we need in a solution architect, right? It's just then a matter of, you know, know learning technical, learning technology, technical stuff. But this is, this is about having fun on your journey as as a solution architect as well. >> And, and let me tell you something that we are also investing in trainings. Training is online for the for the women that they are, that has this interest that they want to learn more about the technology. They want to have a deeper knowledge about the technical stuff. So we are supporting these initiatives and that is something that they can do background and in their own pace. >> And this is an important role because they need the leadership as head of solution architects. It's a good thing. Is, is there any ways that you found that's a best practice for identifying or advice for people to know if they have what it takes or they have an affinity towards technology? Sometimes it's math. Because cloud is great levels it out. I mean, cloud is new, is more jobs open now that didn't exist years ago, couple years ago. So anyone can rise to the top. >> Yeah. I think that's the beauty of the cloud. There is so much space when we say technology I think this is such a, a broad word, right? It means so much, right. It can be someone that likes to develop code. It can be someone that likes to work with infrastructure. It can be someone that likes machine learning or databases or someone that is inspired about applications for the education world or to research genomes or cure cancer. So, yeah, I don't think that there is like any more like a specific profile. I think it's very open for everyone to explore what they love doing. And even from a technology perspective AWS is working to simplify access to the technology. If we take our services on machine learning. For instance, they are for people, for business people like you don't have to know much about algorithms, right. To use some of the AWS services. So I think we're experiencing the democratization of the technology, and with that more opportunity for people to join us. >> A lot of people are changing careers into cloud. So Cindy, I want to ask you guys also if you can share how the mentoring process works there. Is there mentoring? How does that work? Do you match people? Have you found a nice formula for providing some mentoring and some pathways as people come in? >> Yes, we have many ways but one is very important, is that we have user groups. That is a way that we have like a community with internal and external people, and we share advices, guidance, best practices for the people that is interested in this matter. So for one side as I already mentioned, we have training online that you can reach. We have a lot of free courses. Maybe you can start jumping into artificial intelligence. IUT whatever you want to, to, to want that given them. But in the other hand, we have this option to have this kind of support. We have AWS Girl Chile user groups. We have AWS women, Colombian user groups girls in Argentina, we have many of them. We have four hundreds of user communities. So, that is the way that we can keep in touch. >> Any other programs? I mean, Amazon Web Service and Amazon has very strong representation of women. There's a lot of pockets of women groups in all over the world. How does it come together? Because you also have customers in the user groups. You have partners in the partner network. You have technologists learning. So you have this ecosystem of people. It's not just AWS. How are you guys extending that gap into those areas? >> Exactly. And those conversations are getting more and more constant with our customers, right? So we used to talk about technology, we used to talk about business problems, now we talk about diversity. We talk about improving representation and improving the sentiment of inclusion within our customers as well. And one of the things that I can bring, we have been working with a number of our customers in Brazil just to mention New Bank, one of our customers there in building programs. between AWS and the customer, where we train people, and we expose that people to the market, even if it's inside AWS, inside New Bank or any other partner in that ecosystem. So we are building talent not only for us, but for for the entire ecosystem to benefit from. >> Okay, so I have to ask you guys How did you guys get into the tech, Cindy? What was your way? Did it just jump at you? Did it grab you? Did you kind of discover it early? When did you kind of get into the tech? >> That's a good question. I was remembering this moment that when I was seven years old I just started like working with cars and also with that kind of companies, literally companies. And in that moment say, "I want to be part of this technology work." And after that in high school, I have the opportunity to touch a computer. In that moment I said, "This is the thing that I want to do in the rest of my life." >> Yeah. that's it right there. You got the diction, you taste it. Fernanda, what about you? What's your story? How did you get into it? What was the moment? Was there an exact moment or did it just surround you? >> Yeah, I think I was always curious about how things work. I was not thinking about a career in tech honestly. I was thinking about becoming a lawyer, but at some point in time just clicked, right? And I had actually to fight my way into the technical world literally because, I had this very important university close to my house, like maybe 15 minutes from my house. But at that point in time in Brazil, that particular institution was not accepting women. And believe me, it was not like a hundred years ago. Like it was.... (laughing) >> Yeah, you're young, it's just recently. >> Yeah, so I had to move out out of my hometown, back to the city, to Sao Paulo, which is our biggest city in Brazil to find a place for me on an university that would take women. So yeah, I had to fight my way into technology, but I am very proud of that I was able to. >> Yeah, you know what's great now is you have YouTube, you have all these resources, these videos are going to be going everywhere. We're going to put this out there. There's communities where people can learn and see people like themselves out in positions of leadership and technology. So more and more contents being out there. And I think hopefully no one will have to fight to get into tech. If they like it, they're in it. One of the leaders at AWS she said, "We're in a nerd native environment now, the young generation is natively technical." And, I believe that, I see that. I think that's going to be a really exciting trend and seeing leaders like yourselves out there is really wonderful, so thank you for spending the time with us here on theCUBE. Final question I'll ask you, what's next for you Cindy and Fernanda? What's next in your journey? >> Okay, I think the next for me is to keep pushing the women in Mexico to keep installing and also to start thinking into what is the next step in my career? Where should I go? So I think that is the point that I want to do. >> Cindy, what's next for you? >> I feel I'm just starting. (laughing) So much to do, so much to do. I mean, there is a big business for us to make happen in Brazil right now, and we are looking for talent. So, if the video's going to go on YouTube, I would like everybody there to know that yeah, we are looking for talents in Brazil with opportunities all over the world actually. And yeah, that's building, building and building. >> And there's some rig twitch channels by the way too on some developer programmings, tons of programming, it's all out there. Congratulations, and we're looking forward to following up with you both in the future to get an update and thank you for spending the time and sharing your your stories here on theCUBE I really appreciate, thank you. >> Thank you too. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay, theCUBE presentation of Women in Tech, Global Events celebrating International Women's Day. This is the beginning of more programming. We're going to see more episodes from theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal Poly. >> Everyone, welcome to this special presentation with Cal Poly hosting the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE here in our Palo Alto studios with our remote guests. We couldn't be there in person, but we're going to be here remote. We got a great session and a panel for one hour, topic preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow. Got a great lineup. Bill Britton, Lieutenant Colonel from the US Air Force, retired vice president for information technology and CIO and the director of the California Cybersecurity Institute for Cal Poly. Bill, thanks for joining us. Dr. Amy Fleischer, who's the dean of the College of Engineering at Cal Poly, and Trung Pham, professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. Folks, thanks for joining me today. >> Our pleasure. >> Got a great- >> Great to be here. >> Great panel. This is one of my favorite topics. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Preparing students for the next generation, the jobs for today and tomorrow. We got an hour. I'd love you guys to start with an opening statement to kick things off. Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm really pleased to be, to start on this as the director for the Cybersecurity Institute and the CIO at Cal Poly, it's really a fun, exciting job, because as a polytechnic, technology has such a forefront in what we're doing, and we've had a wonderful opportunity being 40 miles from Vandenberg Air Force Base to really look at the nexus of space and cybersecurity. And if you add into that both commercial, government, and civil space and cybersecurity, this is an expanding wide open time for cyber and space. In that role that we have with the Cybersecurity Institute, we partner with elements of the state and the university, and we try to really add value above our academic level, which is some of the highest in the nation, and to really merge down and go a little lower and start younger. So we actually are running the week prior to this showing a cybersecurity competition for high schools and middle schools in the state of California. That competition this year is based on a scenario around hacking of a commercial satellite and the forensics of the payload that was hacked and the networks associated with it. This is going to be done using products like Wireshark, Autopsy, and other tools that will give those high school students what we hope is a huge desire to follow up and go into cyber and cyberspace and space and follow that career path and either come to Cal Poly or some other institution that's going to let them really expand their horizons in cybersecurity and space for the future of our nation. >> Bill, thanks for that intro. By the way, I just want to give you props for an amazing team and job you guys are doing at Cal Poly, the DxHub and the efforts you guys are having with your challenge. Congratulations on that great work. >> Thank you. It's a rock star team. It's absolutely amazing to find that much talent at one location. And I think Amy's going to tell you, she's got the same amount of talent in her staff, so it's a great place to be. >> Dr. Amy Fleischer. You guys have a great organization down there, amazing curriculum, amazing people, great community. Your opening statement. >> Hello everybody. It's really great to be a part of this panel on behalf of the Cal Poly College of Engineering. Here at Cal Poly, we really take preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow completely seriously, and we can claim that our students really graduate so they're ready day one for their first real job. But that means that in getting them to that point, we have to help them get valuable and meaningful job experience before they graduate, both through our curriculum and through multiple internship or summer research opportunities. So we focus our curriculum on what we call a learn by doing philosophy. And this means that we have a combination of practical experience and learn by doing both in and out of the classroom. And we find that to be really critical for preparing students for the workforce. Here at Cal Poly, we have more than 6,000 engineering students. We're one of the largest undergraduate engineering schools in the country. And US News ranks us the eighth best undergraduate engineering program in the country and the top ranked state school. We're really, really proud that we offer this impactful hands-on engineering education that really exceeds that of virtually all private universities while reaching a wider audience of students. We offer 14 degree programs, and really, we're talking today about cyber and space, and I think most of those degree programs can really make an impact in the space and cybersecurity economy. And this includes not only things like aero and cyber directly, but also electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, computer engineering, materials engineering, even manufacturing, civil, and biomedical engineering, as there's a lot of infrastructure needs that go into supporting launch capabilities. Our aerospace program graduates hundreds of aerospace engineers and most of them are working right here in California with many of our corporate partners, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, SpaceX, Virgin Galactic, JPL, and so many other places where we have Cal Poly engineers impacting the space economy. Our cybersecurity focus is found mainly in our computer science and software engineering programs, and it's really a rapidly growing interest among our students. Computer science is our most popular major, and industry interests and partnerships are integrated into our cyber curriculum, and we do that oftentimes through support from industry. So we have partnerships with Northrop Grumman for professorship in a cyber lab and from PG&E for critical infrastructure cybersecurity lab and professorship. And we think that industry partnerships like these are really critical to preparing students for the future as the field is evolving so quickly and making sure we adapt our facilities and our curriculum to stay in line with what we're seeing in industry is incredibly important. In our aerospace program, we have an educational partnership with the Air Force Research Labs that's allowing us to install new high-performance computing capabilities and a space environments lab that's going to enhance our satellite design capabilities. And if we talk about satellite design, Cal Poly is the founding home of the CubeSat program, which pioneered small satellite capabilities, And we remain the worldwide leader in maintaining the CubeSat standard, and our student program has launched more CubeSats than any other program. So here again we have this learn by doing experience every year for dozens of aerospace, electrical, computer science, mechanical engineering students, and other student activities that we think are just as important include ethical hacking through our white hat club, Cal Poly Space Systems, which does really, really big rocket launches, and our support program for women in both of these fields, like WISH, which is Women In Software and Hardware. Now, you know, really trying to bring in a wide variety of people into these fields is incredibly important, and outreach and support to those demographics traditionally underrepresented in these fields is going to be really critical to future success. So by drawing on the lived experiences by people with different types of backgrounds will we develop the type of culture and environment where all of us can get to the best solution. So in terms of bringing people into the field, we see that research shows we need to reach kids when they're in late elementary and middle schools to really overcome that cultural bias that works against diversity in our fields. And you heard Bill talking about the California Cybersecurity Institute's yearly cyber challenge, and there's a lot of other people who are working to bring in a wider variety of people into the field, like Girl Scouts, which has introduced dozens of new badges over the past few years, including a whole cybersecurity series of badges in concert with Palo Alto Networks. So we have our work cut out for us, but we know what we need to do, and if we're really committed to properly preparing the workforce for today and tomorrow, I think our future is going to be bright. I'm looking forward to our discussion today. >> Thank you, Dr. Fleischer, for a great comment, opening statement, and congratulations. You got the right formula down there, the right mindset, and you got a lot of talent, and community, as well. Thank you for that opening statement. Next up, from Colorado Springs, Trung Pham, who's a professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. He's doing a lot of research around the areas that are most important for the intersection of space and technology. Trung. >> Good afternoon. First I'd like to thank Cal Poly for the opportunity. And today I want to go briefly about cybersecurity in space application. Whenever we talk about cybersecurity, the impression is that it's a new field that is really highly complex involving a lot of technical area. But in reality, in my personal opinion, it is indeed a complex field because it involves many disciplines. The first thing we think about is computer engineering and computer networking, but it's also involving communication, sociology, law practice. And this practice of cybersecurity doesn't only involve computer expert, but it's also involve everybody else who has a computing device that is connected to the internet, and this participation is obviously everybody in today's environment. When we think about the internet, we know that it's a good source of information but come with the convenience of information that we can access, we are constantly facing danger from the internet. Some of them we might be aware of. Some of them we might not be aware of. For example, when we search on the internet, a lot of time our browser will be saying that this site is not trusted, so we will be more careful. But what about the sites that we trusted? We know that those are legitimate sites, but they're not 100% bulletproof. What happen if those site are attacked by a hacker and then they will be a silent source of danger that we might not be aware of. So in the reality, we need to be more practicing the cybersecurity from our civil point of view and not from a technical point of view. When we talk about space application, we should know that all the hardware are computer-based or controlled by by computer system, and therefore the hardware and the software must go through some certification process so that they can be rated as airworthy or flightworthy. When we know that in the certification process is focusing on the functionality of the hardware and software, but one aspect that is explicitly and implicitly required is the security of those components. And we know that those components have to be connected with the ground control station, and the communication is through the air, through the radio signal, so anybody who has access to those communication radio signal will be able to control the space system that we put up there. And we certainly do not want our system to be hijacked by a third party. Another aspect of cybersecurity is that we try to design the space system in a very strong manner so it's almost impossible to hack in. But what about some other weak system that might be connected to the strong system? For example, the space system will be connected to the ground control station, and on the ground control station, we have the human controller, and those people have cell phone. They are allowed to use cell phone for communication. But at the same time, they are connected to the internet through the cell phone, and their cell phone might be connected to the computer that control the flight software and hardware. So what I want to say is we try to build strong system and we've protected them, but there will be some weaker system that we could not intended but exists to be connected to our strong system, and those are the points the hacker will be trying to attack. If we know how to control the access to those weak points, we will be having a much better system for the space system. And when we see the cybersecurity that is requiring the participation everywhere it's important to notice that there is a source of opportunity for students who enter the workforce to consider. Obviously students in engineering can focus their knowledge and expertise to provide technological solution to protect the system that we view. But we also have students in business who can focus their expertise to write business plan so that they can provide a pathway for the engineering advances to reach the market. We also have student in law who can focus their expertise in policy governing the internet, governing the cybersecurity practice. And we also have student in education who can focus their expertise to design how to teach cybersecurity practice, and student in every other discipline can focus their effort to implement security measure to protect the system that they are using in their field. So it's obvious that cybersecurity is everywhere and it implies job opportunity everywhere for everybody in every discipline of study. Thank you. >> Thank you, Trung, for those great comments. Great technology opportunities. But interesting, as well, is the theme that we're seeing across the entire symposium and in the virtual hallways that we're hearing conversations, and you pointed out some of them. Dr. Fleischer did, as well. And Bill, you mentioned it. It's not one thing. It's not just technology. It's different skills. And Amy, you mentioned that computer science is the hottest degree, but you have the hottest aerospace program in the world. I mean, so all this is kind of balancing. It's interdisciplinary. It's a structural change. Before we get into some of the, how they prepare the students, can you guys talk about some of the structural changes that are modern now in preparing in these opportunities, because societal impact is a, law potentially impact, it's how we educate. There's now cross-discipline skill sets. It's not just get the degree, see you out in the field. Bill, you want to start? >> Well, what's really fun about this job is that in the Air Force, I worked in the space and missile business, and what we saw was a heavy reliance on checklist format, security procedures, analog systems, and what we're seeing now in our world, both in the government and the commercial side, is a move to a digital environment, and the digital environment is a very quick and adaptive environment, and it's going to require a digital understanding. Matter of fact, the undersecretary of Air Force for acquisition recently referenced the need to understand the digital environment and how that's affecting acquisition. So as both Amy and Trung said, even business students are now in the cybersecurity business. And so again, what we're seeing is the change. Now, another phenomenon that we're seeing in the space world is there's just so much data. One of the ways that we addressed that in the past was to look at high-performance computing. There was a lot stricter control over how that worked. But now what we're seeing is adaptation of cloud, cloud technologies in space support, space data, command and control. And so what we see is a modern space engineer who has to understand digital, has to understand cloud, and has to understand the context of all those with a cyber environment. That's really changing the forefront of what is a space engineer, what is a digital engineer, and what is a future engineer, both commercial or government. So I think the opportunity for all of these things is really good, particularly for a polytechnic, Air Force Academy, and others that are focusing on a more widened experiential level of cloud and engineering and other capabilities. And I'll tell you the part that as the CIO I have to remind everybody, all this stuff works with the IT stuff. So you've got to understand how your IT infrastructures are tied and working together. As we noted earlier, one of the things is that these are all relays from point to point, and that architecture is part of your cybersecurity architecture. So again, every component has now become a cyber aware, cyber knowledgeable, and what we like to call as a cyber cognizant citizen where they have to understand the context. (speaking on mute) >> (indistinct) software Dr. Fleischer, talk about your perspective, 'cause you mentioned some of the things about computer science. I remember in the '80s when I got my computer science degree, they called us software engineers and then you became software developers. And then, so again, engineering is the theme. If you're engineering a system, there's now software involved, and there's also business engineering, business models. So talk about some of your comments, 'cause you mentioned computer science is hot. You got the aerospace. You got these multi-disciplines. You got definitely diversity, as well, brings more perspectives in, as well. Your thoughts on these structural interdisciplinary things? >> I think this is really key to making sure that students are prepared to work in the workforce is looking at the blurring between fields. No longer are you just a computer scientist. No longer are you just an aerospace engineer. You really have to have an expertise where you can work with people across disciplines. All of these fields are just working with each other in ways we haven't seen before. And Bill brought up data. You know, data science is something that's cross-cutting across all of our fields. So we want engineers that have the disciplinary expertise that they can go deep into these fields, but we want them to be able to communicate with each other and to be able to communicate across disciplines and to be able to work in teams that are across disciplines. You can no longer just work with other computer scientists or just work with other aerospace engineers. There's no part of engineering that is siloed anymore. So that's how we're changing. You have to be able to work across those disciplines. And as you, as Trung pointed out, ethics has to come into this. So you can no longer try to fully separate what we would traditionally have called the liberal arts and say, well, that's over there in general education. No, ethics is an important part of what we're doing and how we integrate that into our curriculum. So is communication. So is working on public policy and seeing where all these different aspects tie together to make the impact that we want to have in the world. So you no longer can work solo in these fields. >> That's great point. And Bill also mentioned the cloud. One thing about the cloud that's showed us is horizontal scalability has created a lot of value, and certainly data is now horizontal. Trung, you mentioned some of the things about cryptography for the kids out there, I mean, you can look at the pathway for career. You can do a lot of tech, but you don't have to go deep sometimes. You can as deep as you want, but there's so much more there. What technology do you see that's going to help students, in your opinion? >> Well, I'm a professor in computer science, so I like to talk a little bit about computer programming. Now we are working in complex projects. So most of the time we don't design a system from scratch. We build it from different components, and the components that we have, either we get it from vendors or sometimes we get it from the internet in the open source environment. It's fun to get the source code and then make it work to our own application. So now when we are looking at cryptology, when we talk about encryption, for example, we can easily get the source code from the internet. And the question, is it safe to use those source code? And my question is maybe not. So I always encourage my students to learn how to write source code the traditional way that I learned a long time ago before I allow them to use the open source environment. And one of the things that they have to be careful especially with encryption is the code that might be hidden in the source that they downloaded. Some of the source might be harmful. It might open up back gate for a hacker to get in later. We've heard about these back gates back then when Microsoft designed the operating system with the protection of encryption, and it is true that is existing. So while open source code is a wonderful place to develop complex system, but it's also a dangerous place that we have to be aware of. >> Great point. Before we get into the comments, one quick thing for each of you I'd like to get your comments on. There's been a big movement on growth mindset, which has been a great big believer in having a growth mindset and learning and all that good stuff. But now when you talk about some of these things we're mentioning about systems, there's a new trend around a systems mindset, because if everything's now a system, distributed systems now you have space and cybersecurity, you have to understand the consequences of changes. And you mention some of that, Trung, in changes in the source code. Could you guys share your quick opinions on the of systems thinking? Is that a mindset that people should be looking at? Because it used to be just one thing. Oh, you're a systems guy or gal. There you go. You're done. Now it seems to be in social media and data, everything seems to be systems. What's your take? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you. >> I'd say it's another way of looking at not being just so deep in your discipline. You have to understand what the impact of the decisions that you're making have on a much broader system. And so I think it's important for all of our students to get some exposure to that systems level thinking and looking at the greater impact of the decision that they're making. Now, the issue is where do you set the systems boundary, right? And you can set the systems boundary very close in and concentrate on an aspect of a design, or you can continually move that system boundary out and see where do you hit the intersections of engineering and science along with ethics and public policy and the greater society. And I think that's where some of the interesting work is going to be. And I think at least exposing students and letting them know that they're going to have to make some of these considerations as they move throughout their career is going to be vital as we move into the future. >> Bill, what's your thoughts? >> I absolutely agree with Amy. And I think there's a context here that reverse engineering and forensics analysis and forensics engineering are becoming more critical than ever. The ability to look at what you have designed in a system and then tear it apart and look at it for gaps and holes and problem sets. Or when you're given some software that's already been pre-developed, checking it to make sure it is really going to do what it says it's going to do. That forensics ability becomes more and more a skillset that also you need the verbal skills to explain what it is you're doing and what you found. So the communication side, the systems analysis side, the forensics analysis side, these are all things that are part of system approach that I think you could spend hours on and we still haven't really done a great job on it. So it's one of my fortes is really the whole analysis side of forensics and reverse engineering. >> Trung, real quick, systems thinking, your thoughts. >> Well, I'd like to share with you my experience when I worked in the space station program at NASA. We had two different approaches. One is a compound approach where we design it from the system general point of view where we put components together to be a complex system. But at the same time, we have the (indistinct) approach where we have an engineer who spent time and effort building individual component and they have to be expert in those tiny component that general component they deliver. And in the space station program, we bring together the (indistinct) engineer who designed everything in detail and the system manager who managed the system design from the top down, and we meet in the middle, and together we compromised a lot of differences and we delivered the space station that we are operating today. >> Great insight. And that's the whole teamwork collaboration that Dr. Fleischer was mentioning. Thanks so much for that insight. I wanted to get that out there because I know myself as a parent, I'm always trying to think about what's best for my kids and their friends as they grow up into the workforce. I know educators and leaders in industry would love to know some of the best practices around some of the structural changes. So thanks for that insight. But this topic's about students and helping them prepare. So we heard be multiple discipline, broaden your horizons, think like systems, top down, bottom up, work together as a team, and follow the data. So I got to ask you guys, there's a huge amount of job openings in cybersecurity. It's well-documented. And certainly with the intersection of space and cyber, it's only going to get bigger, right? You're going to see more and more demand for new types of jobs. How do we get high school and college students interested in security as a career? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you on this one. I would say really one of the best ways to get students interested in a career is to show them the impact that it's going to have. There's definitely always going to be students who are going to want to do the technology for the technology's sake, but that will limit you to a narrow set of students, and by showing the greater impact that these types of careers are going to have on the types of problems that you're going to be able to solve and the impact you're going to be able to have on the world around you, that's the word that we really need to get out. And a wide variety of students really respond to these messages. So I think it's really kind of reaching out at the elementary, the middle school level, and really kind of getting this idea that you can make a big difference, a big positive difference in the field with some of these careers, is going to be really critical. >> Real question to follow up. What do you think is the best entry point? You mentioned middle. I didn't hear elementary school. There's a lot of discussions around pipelining, and we're going to get into women in tech and underrepresented minorities later. But is it too early, or what's your feeling on this? >> My feeling is the earlier we can normalize it, the better. If you can normalize an interest in computers and technology and building in elementary school, that's absolutely critical. But the drop-off point that we're seeing is between what I would call late elementary and early middle school. And just kind of as an anecdote, I for years ran an outreach program for Girl Scouts in grades four and five and grade six, seven, and eight. And we had 100 slots in each program. And every year the program would sell out for girls in grades four and five, and every year we'd have spots remaining in grades six, seven, and eight. And that's literally where the drop-off is occurring between that late elementary and that middle school range. So that's the area that we need to target to make sure we keep those young women involved and interested as we move forward. >> Bill, how are we going to get these kids interested in security? You mentioned a few programs you got. >> Yeah. >> I mean, who wouldn't want to be a white hat hacker? I mean, that sounds exciting. >> So yeah, great questions. Let's start with some basic principles, though, is let me ask you a question, John. Name for me one white hat, good person hacker, the name, who works in the space industry and is an exemplar for students to look up to. >> You? >> Oh man, I'm feeling really... >> I'm only, I can't imagine a figure- >> (indistinct) the answer because the answer we normally get is the cricket sound. So we don't have individuals we've identified in those areas for them to look up to. >> I was going to be snarky and say most white hackers won't even use their real name, but... >> Right, so there's an aura around their anonymity here. So again, the real question is how do we get them engaged and keep them engaged? And that's what Amy was pointing out to exactly, the engagement and sticking with it. So one of the things that we're trying to do through our competition on the state level and other elements is providing connections. We call them ambassadors. These are people in the business who can contact the students that are in the game or in that challenge environment and let 'em interact and let 'em talk about what they do and what they're doing in life. But give them a challenging game format. A lot of computer-based training, capture the flag stuff is great, but if you can make it hands-on, if you can make it a learn by doing experiment, if you can make it personally involved and see the benefit as a result of doing that challenge and then talk to the people who do that on a daily basis, that's how you get them involved. The second part is part of what we're doing is we're involving partnership companies in the development of the teams. So this year's competition that we're running has 82 teams from across the state of California. Of those 82 teams at six students a team, middle school, high school, and many of those have company partners, and these are practitioners in cybersecurity who are working with those students to participate. It's that adult connectivity. It's that visualization. So at the competition this year, we have the founder of Defcon Red Flag is a participant to talk to the students. We have Vint Cerf, who is, of course, very well-known for something called the internet, to participate. It's really getting the students to understand who's in this, who can I look up to, and how do I stay engaged with them? >> There's definitely a celebrity aspect of it, I will agree. I mean, the influencer aspect here with knowledge is key. Can you talk about these ambassadors, and how far along are you on that program? First of all, the challenge stuff is, anything gamification-wise, we've seen that with hackathons, it just really works well. Creates bonding. People who create together can get sticky and get very high community aspect to it. Talk about this ambassador thing. What is that, industry, is that academic? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> What is this ambassador thing? >> Industry partners that we've identified, some of which, and I won't hit all of 'em, so I'm sure I'll short change this, but Palo Alto, Cisco, Splunk, many of the companies in California, and what we've done is identified schools to participate in the challenge that may not have a strong STEM program or have any cyber program. And the idea of the company is they look for their employees who are in those school districts to partner with the schools to help provide outreach. It could be as simple as a couple hours a week, or it's a team support captain or it's providing computers and other devices to use. And so again, it's really about a constant connectivity and trying to help where some schools may not have the staff or support units in an area to really provide them what they need for connectivity. What that does is it gives us an opportunity to not just focus on it once a year, but throughout the year. So for the competition, all the teams that are participating have been receiving training and educational opportunities in the gamification side since they signed up to participate. So there's a website, there's learning materials, there's materials provided by certain vendor companies like Wireshark and others. So it's a continuum of opportunity for the students. >> You know, I've seen, just randomly, just got a random thought. Robotics clubs are moving then closer into that middle school area, Dr. Fleischer, and in certainly in high schools, it's almost like a varsity sport. E-sports is another one. My son just called me. "I made the JV at the college team." It's big and serious, right? And it's fun. This is the aspect of fun. It's hands-on. This is part of the culture down there. Learn by doing. Is there, like, a group? Is it, like, a club? I mean, how do you guys organize these bottoms-up organically interest topics? >> So here in the college of engineering, when we talk about learn by doing, we have learned by doing both in the classroom and out of the classroom. And if we look at these types of out of the classroom activities, we have over 80 clubs working on all different aspects, and many of these are bottom-up. The students have decided what they want to work on and have organized themselves around that. And then they get the leadership opportunities. The more experienced students train the less experienced students. And it continues to build from year after year after year with them even doing aspects of strategic planning from year to year for some of these competitions. Yeah, it's an absolutely great experience. And we don't define for them how their learn by doing experiences should be. We want them to define it. And I think the really cool thing about that is they have the ownership and they have the interest and they can come up with new clubs year after year to see which direction they want to take it, and we will help support those clubs as old clubs fade out and new clubs come in. >> Trung, real quick, before we go on the next talk track, what do you recommend for middle school, high school, or even elementary? A little bit of coding, Minecraft? I mean, how do you get 'em hooked on the fun and the dopamine of technology and cybersecurity? What's your take on that? >> On this aspect, I'd like to share with you my experience as a junior high and high school student in Texas. The university of Texas in Austin organized a competition for every high school in Texas in every field from poetry to mathematics to science, computer engineering. But it's not about the University of Texas. The University of Texas is only serving as a center for the final competition. They divide the competition to district and then regional and then state. At each level, we have local university and colleges volunteering to host the competition and make it fun for the student to participate. And also they connected the students with private enterprises to raise fund for scholarship. So student who see the competition is a fun event for them, they get exposed to different university hosting the event so that they can see different option for them to consider college. They also get a promise that if they participate, they will be considered for scholarship when they attend university and college. So I think the combination of fun and competition and the scholarship aspect will be a good thing to entice the student to commit to the area of cybersecurity. >> Got the engagement, the aspiration, scholarship, and you mentioned a volunteer. I think one of the things I'll observe is you guys are kind of hitting this as community. I mean, the story of Steve Jobs and Woz building the Mac, they called Bill Hewlett up in Palo Alto. He was in the phone book. And they scoured some parts from him. That's community. This is kind of what you're getting at. So this is kind of the formula we're seeing. So the next question I really want to get into is the women in technology, STEM, underrepresented minorities, how do we get them on cybersecurity career path? Is there a best practices there? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I think it's really interesting. First thing I want to add is, if I could, just a clarification. What's really cool, the competition that we have and we're running, it's run by students from Cal Poly. So Amy referenced the clubs and other activities. So many of the organizers and developers of the competition that we're running are the students, but not just from engineering. So we actually have theater and liberal arts majors and technology for liberal arts majors who are part of the competition, and we use their areas of expertise, set design and other things, visualization, virtualization. Those are all part of how we then teach and educate cyber in our gamification and other areas. So they're all involved and they're learning, as well. So we have our students teaching other students. So we're really excited about that. And I think that's part of what leads to a mentoring aspect of what we're providing where our students are mentoring the other students. And I think it's also something that's really important in the game. The first year we held the game, we had several all-girl teams, and it was really interesting because A, they didn't really know if they could compete. I mean, this is their reference point. We don't know if. They did better than anybody. I mean, they just, they knocked the ball out of the park. The second part, then, is building that confidence level that can, going back and telling their cohorts that, hey, it's not this obtuse thing you can't do. It's something real that you can compete and win. And so again, it's building that camaraderie, that spirit, that knowledge that they can succeed. And I think that goes a long way. And Amy's programs and the reach out and the reach out that Cal Poly does to schools to develop, I think that's what it really is going to take. It is going to take that village approach to really increase diversity and inclusivity for the community. >> Dr. Fleischer, I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned your outreach program and the drop-off, some of those data. You're deeply involved in this. You're passionate about it. What's your thoughts on this career path opportunity for STEM? >> Yeah, I think STEM is an incredible career path opportunity for so many people. There's so many interesting problems that we can solve, particularly in cyber and in space systems. And I think we have to meet the kids where they are and kind of show them what the exciting part is about it, right? But Bill was alluding to this when he was talking about trying to name somebody that you can point to. And I think having those visible people where you can see yourself in that is absolutely critical, and those mentors and that mentorship program. So we use a lot of our students going out into California middle schools and elementary schools. And you want to see somebody that's like you, somebody that came from your background and was able to do this. So a lot of times we have students from our National Society of Black Engineers or our Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers or our Society of Women Engineers, which we have over 1,000 members, 1,000 student members in our Society of Women Engineers who are doing these outreach programs. But like I also said, it's hitting them at the lower levels, too, and Girl Scouts is actually distinguishing themselves as one of the leading STEM advocates in the country. And like I said, they developed all these cybersecurity badges starting in kindergarten. There's a cybersecurity badge for kindergartener and first graders. And it goes all the way up through late high school. The same thing with space systems. And they did the space systems in partnership with NASA. They did the cybersecurity in partnership with Palo Alto Networks. And what you do is you want to build these skills that the girls are developing, and like Bill said, work in girl-led teams where they can do it, and if they're doing it from kindergarten on, it just becomes normal, and they never think, well, this is not for me. And they see the older girls who are doing it and they see a very clear path leading them into these careers. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you used the word normalization earlier. That's exactly what it is. It's life, you get life skills and a new kind of badge. Why wouldn't you learn how to be a white hat hacker or have some fun or learn some skills? >> Amy: Absolutely. >> Just in the grind of your fun day. Super exciting. Okay, Trung, your thoughts on this. I mean, you have a diverse, diversity brings perspective to the table in cybersecurity because you have to think like the other guy, the adversary. You got to be the white hat. You can't be a white hat unless you know how black hat thinks. So there's a lot of needs here for more points of view. How are we going to get people trained on this from underrepresented minorities and women? What's your thoughts? >> Well, as a member of the IEEE Professional Society of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, every year we participate in the engineering week. We deploy our members to local junior high school and high school to talk about our project to promote the study of engineering. But at the same time, we also participate in the science fair that the state of Texas is organizing. Our engineer will be mentoring students, number one, to help them with the project, but number two, to help us identify talent so that we can recruit them further into the field of STEM. One of the participation that we did was the competition of the, what they call Future City, where students will be building a city on a computer simulation. And in recent year, we promote the theme of smart city where city will be connected the individual houses and together into the internet. And we want to bring awareness of cybersecurity into that competition. So we deploy engineer to supervise the people, the students who participate in the competition. We bring awareness not in the technical detail level, but in what we've call the compound level so student will be able to know what required to provide cybersecurity for the smart city that they are building. And at the same time, we were able to identify talent, especially talent in the minority and in the woman, so that we can recruit them more actively. And we also raise money for scholarship. We believe that scholarship is the best way to entice student to continue education at the college level. So with scholarship, it's very easy to recruit them to the field and then push them to go further into the cybersecurity area. >> Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of the parents like, oh, my kid's going to go join the soccer team, we get private lessons, and maybe they'll get a scholarship someday. Well, they only do half scholarships. Anyway. I mean, if they spent that time doing these other things, it's just, again, this is a new life skill, like the Girl Scouts. And this is where I want to get into this whole silo breaking down, because Amy, you brought this up, and Bill, you were talking about it, as well. You got multiple stakeholders here with this event. You've got public, you've got private, and you've got educators. It's the intersection of all of them. It's, again, if those silos break down, the confluence of those three stakeholders have to work together. So let's talk about that. Educators. You guys are educating young minds. You're interfacing with private institutions and now the public. What about educators? What can they do to make cyber better? 'Cause there's no real manual. I mean, it's not like this court is a body of work of how to educate cybersecurity. Maybe it's more recent. There's cutting edge best practices. But still, it's an evolving playbook. What's your thoughts for educators? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm going to turn to Amy and let her go first. >> Let you go. >> That's fine. >> I would say as educators, it's really important for us to stay on top of how the field is evolving, right? So what we want to do is we want to promote these tight connections between educators and our faculty and applied research in industry and with industry partnerships. And I think that's how we're going to make sure that we're educating students in the best way. And you're talking about that inner, that confluence of the three different areas. And I think you have to keep those communication lines open to make sure that the information on where the field is going and what we need to concentrate on is flowing down into our educational process. And that works in both ways, that we can talk as educators and we can be telling industry what we're working on and what types of skills our students have and working with them to get the opportunities for our students to work in industry and develop those skills along the way, as well. And I think it's just all part of this really looking at what's going to be happening and how do we get people talking to each other? And the same thing with looking at public policy and bringing that into our education and into these real hands-on experiences. And that's how you really cement this type of knowledge with students, not by talking to them and not by showing them, but letting them do it. It's this learn by doing and building the resiliency that it takes when you learn by doing. And sometimes you learn by failing, but you just pick up and you keep going. And these are important skills that you develop along the way. >> You mentioned sharing, too. That's the key. Collaborating and sharing knowledge. It's an open world and everyone's collaborating. Bill, private-public partnerships. I mean, there's a real, private companies, you mentioned Palo Alto Networks and others. There's a real intersection there. They're motivated. They could, there's scholarship opportunities. Trung points to that. What is the public-private educator view there? How do companies get involved and what's the benefit for them? >> Well, that's what a lot of the universities are doing is to bring in as part of either their cyber centers or institutes people who are really focused on developing and furthering those public-private partnerships. That's really what my role is in all these things is to take us to a different level in those areas, not to take away from the academic side, but to add additional opportunities for both sides. Remember, in a public-private partnership, all entities have to have some gain in the process. Now, what I think is really interesting is the timing on particularly this subject, space and cybersecurity. This has been an absolute banner year for space. The standup of Space Force, the launch of commercial partnership, you know, commercial platforms delivering astronauts to the space station, recovering them, and bringing them back. The ability of a commercial satellite platform to be launched. Commercial platforms that not only launch but return back to where they're launched from. These are things that are stirring the hearts of the American citizens, the kids, again, they're getting interested. They're seeing this and getting enthused. So we have to seize upon that and we have to find a way to connect that. Public-private partnerships is the answer for that. It's not one segment that can handle it all. It's all of them combined together. If you look at space, space is going to be about commercial. It's going to be about civil. Moving from one side of the Earth to the other via space. And it's about government. And what's really cool for us, all those things are in our backyard. That's where that public-private comes together. The government's involved. The private sector's involved. The educators are involved. And we're all looking at the same things and trying to figure out, like this forum, what works best to go to the future. >> You know, if people are bored and they want to look for an exciting challenge, you couldn't have laid it out any clearer. It's the most exciting discipline. It's everything. I mean, we just talk about space. GPS is, everything we do is involved, has to do with satellites. (laughs) >> I have to tell you a story on that right? We have a very unique GPS story right in our backyard. So our sheriff is the son of the father of GPS for the Air Force. So you can't get better than that when it comes to being connected to all those platforms. So we really want to say, you know, this is so exciting for all of us because it gives everybody a job for a long time. >> You know, the kids that think TikTok's exciting, wait till they see what's going on here with you guys, this program. Trung, final word on this from the public side. You're at the Air Force. You're doing research. Are you guys opening it up? Are you integrating into the private and educational sectors? How do you see that formula playing out? And what's the best practice for students and preparing them? >> I think it's the same in every university in the engineering program will require our students to do the final project before graduation. And in this kind of project, we send them out to work in the private industry, the private company that sponsor them. They get the benefit of having an intern working for them and they get the benefit of reviewing the students as the prospective employee in the future. So it's good for the student to gain practical experience working in this program. Sometimes we call that a co-op program. Sometimes we call that a capstone program. And the company will accept the student on a trial basis, giving them some assignment and then pay them a little bit of money. So it's good for the student to earn some extra money, to have some experience that they can put on their resume when they apply for the final, for the job. So the collaboration between university and private sector is really important. When I join a faculty normally there already exist that connection. It came from normally, again, from the dean of engineering, who would wine and dine with companies, build up relationship, and sign up agreement. But it's us professor who have to do the (indistinct) approach to do a good performance so that we can build up credibility to continue the relationship with those company and the student that we selected to send to those company. We have to make sure that they will represent the university well, they will do a good job, and they will make a good impression. >> Thank you very much for a great insight, Trung, Bill, Amy. Amazing topic. I'd like to end this session with each of you to make a statement on the importance of cybersecurity to space. We'll go Trung, Bill, and Amy. Trung, the importance of cybersecurity to space, brief statement. >> The importance of cybersecurity, we know that it's affecting every component that we are using and we are connecting to, and those component, normally we use them for personal purpose, but when we enter the workforce, sometimes we connect them to the important system that the government or the company are investing to be put into space. So it's really important to practice cybersecurity, and a lot of time, it's very easy to know the concept. We have to be careful. But in reality, we tend to forget to to practice it the way we forget how to drive a car safely. And with driving a car, we have a program called defensive driving that requires us to go through training every two or three years so that we can get discount. Every organization we are providing the annual cybersecurity practice not to tell people about the technology, but to remind them about the danger of not practicing cybersecurity and it's a requirement for every one of us. >> Bill, the importance of cybersecurity to space. >> It's not just about young people. It's about all of us. As we grow and we change, as I referenced it, we're changing from an analog world to a digital world. Those of us who have been in the business and have hair that looks like mine, we need to be just as cognizant about cybersecurity practice as the young people. We need to understand how it affects our lives, and particularly in space, because we're going to be talking about people, moving people to space, moving payloads, data transfer, all of those things. And so there's a whole workforce that needs to be retrained or upskilled in cyber that's out there. So the opportunity is ever expansive for all of us. >> Amy, the importance of cybersecurity in space. >> I mean the emphasis of cybersecurity is space just simply can't be over emphasized. There are so many aspects that are going to have to be considered as systems get ever more complex. And as we pointed out, we're putting people's lives at stake here. This is incredibly, incredibly complicated and incredibly impactful, and actually really exciting, the opportunities that are here for students and the workforce of the future to really make an enormous impact on the world around us. And I hope we're able to get that message out to students and to children today, that these are really interesting fields that you need to consider. >> Thank you very much. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, and the importance of cybersecurity and space is the future of the world's all going to happen in and around space with technology, people, and society. Thank you to Cal Poly, and thank you for watching the Cybersecurity and Space Symposium 2020. (bright music)

>> Presenter: From around the globe, it's the cube, with digital coverage of pager duty summit 2020. Brought to you by pager duty. >> Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin, today talking with Tammy Bryant is a cube alumna, the principal Site reliability engineer at Gremlin and the co-founder and CTO of the Girl Geek Academy. Tammy, it's great to have you on the program again. >> Hi Lisa, thanks so much for having me again. It's great to be here. >> So one of the things I saw in your background 10 plus years of technical expertise, and SRE, and chaos engineering, and I thought chaos engineering, I feel like I'm living in chaos right now. What is chaos engineering and why do you break things on purpose? >> Yep. So the idea of chaos engineering is that we're, breaking systems but in a thoughtful controlled way, to identify weaknesses in systems. So that's really what it's all about. The idea there is, you know, When you're doing really complicated work with technical systems, so like, for example, distributed systems and say, for example, you're working at a bank, it's tough to be able to pinpoint the exact failure mode that could cause a really large outage for your customers. And that's what chaos engineering is all about. you inject the failure proactively, to identify the issues and then you fix them before they actually cause really big problems for customers and you do it during the middle of the day, you know, when you're feeling great, instead of being paged in the middle of the night for an incident, that's actually like causing your customers pain, and making you lose a lot of money. So that's what chaos engineering really is. >> Are you seeing in the last six months since the world is so different, are you seeing an increase in customers? Now with, the for example, Brick and Mortars shut down and everything having to convert to digital if it wasn't already? Is there an increase in demand for chaos engineering services? >> Yeah, definitely. So a lot of people are asking what is chaos engineering, how can I use ,it will it help me reduce my incidents? and definitely because there are a lot of new services that have been rolled out recently, say, for example, curbside pickup. That's a whole new thing that had to be created really recently to be able to handle a large amount of load. And you know, people show up, they want to get their product really fast, 'cause they want to be able to just get back home quickly. And that's something that we've been working on with our customers is to make sure that curbside pickup experience is really great. The other interesting thing that we've been working on because of the pandemic is making sure that banks are really reliable, and that customers are able to get access to their money when they need it. And able to see that information too. And you can imagine that not as when you're in lockdown, and you only can leave your house for maybe an hour a day, you need to be able to quickly get access to your money to buy food, and we've seen some big incidents recently, where that hasn't been the case. Yeah. >> And I can imagine I mean, just thinking of what happened with, everything six months ago and how people were, we are just, demanding, right, consumers were demanding, we expect to get whatever we want, whether it's something we buy on Amazon, something that we stream on Netflix, or whatnot, we have this expectation that we can almost get it in real time. But there was a there was, you know what, there was a delay a few months ago, and there still is to some degree. But companies like Amazon and Netflix, I can imagine, really must have a big focus on chaos engineering, to test these things regularly. And now have proved, I would imagine to some degree that with chaos engineering that they have built, they're built to withstand that. >> Yes, exactly. So our founders at Gremlin came from Netflix and Amazon, our CEO had worked at both where he done chaos engineering, and that's actually why he decided to create Gremlin. It's the first company in the world to offer chaos engineering as a service. And you know, obviously, when you're working somewhere like Netflix, you know the whole product, you have to be able to get access to that movie, that TV show, right in that moment, and also customers expect to be able to see that on for example. There PlayStation in their living room and it should work and there paying for a subscription, So, to be able to keep them on that subscription, you need to offer a great service. Same thing with Amazon, you know, Amazon.com, they've done a lot of chaos engineering work over many years now to be able to make sure that everything is available. And it's not just that, the entire amazon.com is up and running. It's also for example, that when you go and look at a page that the recommendation service works toO and they're able to show you, hey, here's some other things that you might like to get to buy at this time. And I like as as a consumer, I love that 'cause it helps me save time and effort and even money as well 'cause it's giving you some good advice. So that's the type of statement we do. >> Exactly, So. when you're working with customers, I'd love to understand just a little bit from the, like the conversational standpoint is this now, is chaos engineering now, at kind of the sea level or is it still sort of in within the engineering folks 'cause looking at this as a make or break, knowing that for example, Netflix, there's Hulu, there's Disney Plus, there's Apple TV. Plus, if we don't get something that we're looking for right away, there's prime, we're going to go to another streaming service. So are you starting to see like an increase in demand from companies that no, we have competition right behind us, we've got to be able to set up the infrastructure and ensure that it is reliable. Now more than ever. >> Yeah, exactly. That's really, really important. I'm seeing a lot of executives. I mean, I've seen that since the beginning, really, since I first started working at Gremlin. I would often be invited by executives to come and give talks actually, within their company, to help the teams learn about chaos engineering, and I love doing that, It's really great. So I'd be invited by C levels, or VPs, from different departments. And I often get people adding me on LinkedIn from all over the world who are in leadership roles, because really, like, you know, they're responsible for making sure that their companies can hit those critical metrics and make sure that they're able to achieve their really, you know, demanding business goals, and then they're trying to help their teams be able to achieve that, too. So I've actually been so pleased to see that as well. Like it is really cool to have an executive reach out and say, hey, I'm thinking of helping my team, I'd like to get them introduced to you can you come and just teach them about this topic? And I love being able to do that it's really positive. And it's the right way to improve. >> It is, and I think nowadays, with reliability being more important than ever, you know, we talked to leaders from industry, from every industry. And there are certain things right now that are going to be shaping the winners and the losers of tomorrow. And it sounds to me like chaos engineering is one of those things that's going to be fundamental to any type of business to not just survive these times, but to thrive going forward. >> Yes, I definitely think so. I mean, obviously, people can easily just go to a different URL and try and use a different service. And you know, we're seeing now failure across so many different industries. We didn't see that before. But for example, you know, I'm sure you've seen in the news or heard from friends and family about schools, now being completely online. And then kids can't actually access, their calls their resources, what they need to learn every day. So that really just shows you how much it's impacting us as a society, we really know that the internet is critical. It's amazing that we have the internet, like how lucky we are to have this, but it needs to work for us to actually be able to get value out of it. And that's what chaos engineering is all about. You know, were able to make sure that everything is reliable, so it's up and running. And we do that by looking at things like redundancy. So we'll do failover work where we completely shut down an application or service and make sure it gracefully fails over. We also do a lot of dependency failure work, where you're actually looking to say, this is the critical path of this service. And a lot of people don't think about this, but the critical path really starts at sign in. So you need to make sure that login and sign in works really well. It's not just about like the experience once you've signed in, that has to work well all the way through. So actually if you have a good understanding of user experience, it helps you create a much better pathway and understand those critical pieces that the customer needs to be able to do to have a great experience. And I care a lot about that. Like whenever I go and work somewhere, I always read customer tickets, I always try and understand what are the customer pain points. And I love listening to customers and then just solving their problems. The last thing I want them to do is, you know, be complaining or be really annoyed on Twitter because something just isn't working when they need it to be working. And it is really critical these days. It's a the internet is a really serious part of our day to day life. >> Oh, it's a lifeline. I mean, that's, some folks. It's the only way that they're connecting with the outside world, is through the internet. So when things aren't, I had a friend whose son first day of college couple weeks ago, freshman year, first class couldn't get into zoom. And that's a stressful situation. But I imagine too, though, that and I know you're going to be speaking at the pager duty summit that more folks need to understand what this is. And I can tell the you have a real authentic passion for it. Talk to us about what you're going to be talking about at the pager duty summit. >> Sure thing, I'm really excited to be speaking at Pager Duty Summit very soon. My talk is called building, and scaling SRE teams, so site reliability engineering teams. And this is something that I've done previously. I've built out the SRE teams at Dropbox for both databases as well as storage. So block storage, and then I also lead the code workflows team. And that's for, you know, over 500 million users, people accessing the critical data that they store on Dropbox all the time. You know the way that folks use Dropbox is in so many different ways. Maybe it's like really famous music musicians who are trying to create an amazing new album that happens or maybe it's a lawyer preparing for a court case, and they need to be able to access their documents. So those are a lot of customer stories that would come up over time. And prior to that, I worked at the National Australia Bank as well leading teams too and obviously like people care about their money if they can't access their money. If there incorrect transactions, if there are missing transactions, you know, duplicate transactions, maybe people don't mind so much about it you get like a double deposit, but it's still not good from the bank's perspective. So there's all types of different chaos that can happen. And I found it to be really interesting to be able to dive into that and make sure that you can make improvements. And I love that it makes customers happier. And also, it helps you improve your company as a whole. So it's a really good thing to be able to do, And with my talk, I'm going to talk to folks about, you know, not only why it's important to build out a reliability practice at your organization, you know, back in the day, people used to go, why would you need a security team? You know, why would we need that? now everybody has a security team, everyone has a chief security officer as well. But why don't we focus on reliability, like we know that we see incidents out in the news all the time, but for some reason, we don't have the chief reliability officer. I think that's definitely going to be something that will appear in the future just like the chief security officer roll up. But that's what I'm going to talk about there. How you can find site reliability engineers, I'll share a few of my secrets. I won't give any spoilers out. But there's actually quite a few places that you can find amazing people. There's even a school that you can hire them from, which I've done in the past. And then I'll talk to you about how you can interview them to make sure that you get the best people on your team. There are a number of things that I think are very important to interview for. And then once you've got those folks on your team, I'll talk to you about how you can make sure that they're successful. How to set them up for success and make sure that they're aligned to not only your business goals, but also your core values as a company, which is really important too. >> Yeah, that's fantastic. It's very well rounded, I'm curious, what are some of the the characteristics that you think are really critical for someone to become a successful SRE? >> Yeah, so there's a few key things that I look for. One thing is that, somebody who is really good at troubleshooting, so they need to be able to be comfortable with complexity, ambiguity and open ended challenges and problems and also thrive in those types of environments. Because often you're seeing something that you've never seen happen before. And also you're working with really complicated systems. So you just need to be able to feel good in that moment. And you can test for that during an interview question on troubleshooting and debugging. So that's something that I'll go into in more detail. But that's definitely the first characteristic. The other thing, of course, is you want to have someone who is good at being able to build solutions. So they can code, they understand automation, they can figure out how can I take this pain point, this problem? And how can I automate it and then scale this out and make it available for everyone across my organization? So someone who has that mindset of building tools for others, and often they are internal tools, because maybe you're building a tool that helps everybody know, who's on call every single critical service at the company and also non critical service and they can identify that in a minute or less like maybe even just in a few seconds, and then they can quickly get that person involved, if anything need to escalate to them. Via for example, a tool like pager duty, that's really what you want. You want them to be able to think, how can I just make this efficient? How can I make sure that we can get really great results? And yeah, I think they also just need to be really personable too and work well in a really complicated organizational structure. Because usually they have to work with the engineering team, the finance team to understand the revenue impact. They need to be able to work with the PR team and the social media team, if they're incidents, and then they need to provide information about when this incident is going to be resolved, and how they can update VIP customers. They need to talk to the sales team, because what happens if you're giving a demonstration, and then somehow there's an issue, or failure that happens, an incident and then in the middle of your very important sales demo, you're not able to actually deliver it that can happen a lot too. So there are a lot of very important key skills. >> Sounds like it's a really cross functional role, pivotal to an organization, that needs to understand how these different functions not only operate, but also operate together, is that somebody that you think has certain types of previous work experience? Is this something that you talked to the Girl Geek Academy girls about? How did they get into? I'm curious, like what the career path is? >> Yeah, it's interesting, like I find a lot of SRE's often come from either a few different backgrounds. One is they came through the world of Linux and understanding systems, and just being really interested in that. Like deep diving into the kernel, understanding how to improve performance of systems. The other side is maybe they came from coding background where they were actually building applications and features. I started off actually on that side, but I also had a passion for Linux. And then I sort of spread over into the other side and was able to learn both. And then often you know, someone who's comfortable with being on call and handling incidents, but it is a lot of skills, like that's actually something that I often talk to folks about, and they asked me how can I become a great SRE? There's so many things I need to learn. And I just say, you know, take it slow, try and gradually increase your number of skills. People often say that there is like there's some curve for SRE's, where you have the operations side, on one side, and then the coding side on the other. And often like the best person sits right in the middle where they have both ops and engineering skills. But it's really hard to find those people. It's okay if you have someone that's like, really deep, has amazing knowledge of Linux and scaling systems and internet management, and then you can pair them up with a really amazing programmer who's great at software engineering and software architecture, that's okay, too. >> We've been hearing for a long time about this sort of negative unemployment with respect to cyber security professionals. Is that, are you guys falling into that same category as well with SRE? Or is it somehow different or you just know this is exactly what we're looking for? We want to go out there, and even in the Girl, Greek Academy, maybe help girls learn how to be able to find what I imagine are a lot of opportunities. >> Yeah, there are so many opportunities for this. So it's definitely an opportunity because what I see is there's not enough SRE's. So tons of companies all over the world will actually ping me and say, hey, Tommy, how do I hire SRE's, that's why I decided to give this talk because I wanted to package that up and just share that information as to how you can do it. And also, maybe you can't find the SRE's because they don't exist. But you can help retrain your team. So you can have an engineer learn the skills that are required to be an SRE, that's totally possible too, maybe move them over to become an SRE. With girl geek Academy, one of the things that I've done is run hackathons and workshops and just online training sessions to help girls learn these new skills. So that's exactly what our mission is, is to teach 1 million girls technical skills by 2025. And I love to do mentoring at scale, which is why it's been really cool to be able to do it online and through these like workshops and remote hackathons. And I definitely love to do something where else work with some of our customers actually, and run an event. I did one a while back, it was really cool, we were able to have all of the girls come in and be at the customer's office and actually learn skills with the customer, which was really fun. And it helps them actually think, hey, I could work one day that would be really amazing. And I'm going to do that again in November. And it's kind of fun too. We can do things like have like, you know, dad and mom and then daughter day, where you actually bring your daughter to work and help her learn technical skills. That's really fun because they get to see what you do and they understand it more and see how cool chaos engineering really is. Then they think oh, wow, you're so awesome, this is great. >> I love it, that's fantastic. Well it sounds like, like I said before your passion for it is really there. What, I think is really interesting is how you're talking about chaos engineering and just the word in and of itself chaos. But you painted in such a positive lights critical business critical, but also the all the opportunities there that businesses have to learn and fine tune so such an interesting conversation. Yeah, Tammy. We have you back on the program. But I thank you so much for joining me today. And for those folks that lucky enough that are attending the pager duty summit, they're going to get to learn a lot from you. Thank you. >> Thanks so much for having me, Lisa. >> For Tammy Bryant, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida it's theCUBE! Covering Microsoft Ignite, brought to you by Cohesity. >> Hello, and happy taco Tuesday CUBE viewers! You are watching theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft's Ignite here in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with Stu Miniman. We're joined by Scott Hanselman, he is the partner program manager at Microsoft. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE! >> Absolutely, my pleasure! >> Rebecca: And happy taco Tuesday to you! Will code for tacos. >> Will code for tacos. >> I'm digging it, I'm digging it >> I'm a very inexpensive coder. >> So you are the partner program manager, but you're really the people's programmer at Microsoft. Satya Nadella up on the main stage yesterday, talking about programming for everyone, empowering ordinary citizen developers, and you yourself were on the main stage this morning, "App Development for All", why is this such a priority for Microsoft at this point in time? >> Well there's the priority for Microsoft, and then I'll also speak selfishly as a priority for me, because when we talk about inclusion, what does that really mean? Well it is the opposite of exclusion. So when we mean inclusion, we need to mean everyone, we need to include everyone. So what can we do to make technology, to make programming possible, to make everyone enabled, whether that be something like drag and drop, and PowerApps, and the Power platform, all the way down to doing things like we did in the keynote this morning with C# on a tiny micro-controller, and the entire spectrum in between, whether it be citizen programmers in Excel using Power BI to go and do machine learning, or the silly things that we did in the keynote with rock, paper scissors that we might be able to talk about. All of that means including everyone and if the site isn't accessible, if Visual Studio as a tool isn't accessible, if you're training your AI in a non-ethical way, you are consciously excluding people. So back to what Satya thinks is why can't everyone do this? SatyaSacha thinks is why can't everyone do this? Why are we as programmers having any gate keeping, or you know, "You can't do that you're not a programmer, "you know, I'm a programmer, you can't have that." >> So what does the future look like, >> Rebecca: So what does the future look like, if everyone knows how to do it? I mean, do some imagining, visioning right now about if everyone does know how to do this, or at least can learn the building blocks for it, what does technology look like? >> Well hopefully it will be ethical, and it'll be democratized so that everyone can do it. I think that the things that are interesting, or innovative today will become commoditized tomorrow, like, something as simple as a webcam detecting your face, and putting a square around it and then you move around, and the square, we were like, "Oh my God, that was amazing!" And now it's just a library that you can download. What is amazing and interesting today, like AR and VR, where it's like, "Oh wow, I've never seen augmented reality work like that!" My eight-year-old will be able to do it in five years, and they'll be older than eight. >> So Scott, one of the big takeaways I had from the app dev keynote that you did this morning was in the past it was trying to get everybody on the same page, let's move them to our stack, let's move them to our cloud, let's move them on this programming language, and you really talked about how the example of Chipotle is different parts of the organization will write in a different language, and there needs to be, it's almost, you know, that service bus that you have between all of these environments, because we've spent, a lot of us, I know in my career I've spent decades trying to help break down those silos, and get everybody to work together, but we're never going to have everybody doing the same jobs, so we need to meet them where they are, they need to allow them to use the tools, the languages, the platforms that they want, but they need to all be able to work together, and this is not the Microsoft that I grew up with that is now an enabler of that environment. The word we keep coming back to is trust at the keynote. I know there's some awesome, cool new stuff about .net which is a piece of it, but it's all of the things together. >> Right, you know I was teaching a class at Mesa Community College down in San Diego a couple of days ago and they were trying, they were all people who wanted jobs, just community college people, I went to community college and it's like, I just want to know how to get a job, what is the thing that I can do? What language should I learn? And that's a tough question. They wonder, do I learn Java, do I learn C#? And someone had a really funny analogy, and I'll share it with you. They said, well you know English is the language, right? Why don't the other languages just give up? They said, you know, Finland, they're not going to win, right? Their language didn't win, so they should just give up, and they should all speak English, and I said, What an awful thing! They like their language! I'm not going to go to people who do Haskell, or Rust, or Scala, or F#, and say, you should give up! You're not going to win because C won, or Java won, or C# won. So instead, why don't we focus on standards where we can inter-operate, where we can accept that the reality is a hybrid cloud things like Azure Arc that allows us to connect multiple clouds, multi-vendor clouds together. That is all encompassing the concept of inclusion, including everyone means including every language, and as many standards as you can. So it might sound a little bit like a Tower of Babel, but we do have standards and the standards are HTTP, REST, JSON, JavaScript. It may not be the web we deserve, but it's the web that we have, so we'll use those building block technologies, and then let people do their own thing. >> So speaking of the keynote this morning, one of the cool things you were doing was talking about the rock, paper, scissors game, and how it's expanding. Tell our viewers a little bit more about the new elements to rock, paper, scissors. >> So folks named Sam Kass, a gentleman named Sam Kass many, many years ago on the internet, when the internet was much simpler web pages, created a game called Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock, and a lot of people will know that from a popular TV show on CBS, and they'll give credit to that show, in fact it was Sam Kass and Karen Bryla who created that, and we sent them a note and said, "Hey can I write a game about this?" And we basically built a Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock game in the cloud containerized at scale with multiple languages, and then we also put it on a tiny device, and what's fun about the game from a complexity perspective is that rock, paper, scissors is easy. There's only three rules, right? Paper covers rock, which makes no sense, but when you have five, it's hard! Spock shoots the Rock with his phaser, and then the lizard poisons Spock, and the paper disproves, and it gets really hard and complicated, but it's also super fun and nerdy. So we went and created a containerized app where we had all different bots, we had node, Python, Java, C#, and PHP, and then you can say, I'm going to pick Spock and .net, or node and paper, and have them fight, and then we added in some AI, and some machine learning, and some custom vision such that if you sign in with Twitter in this game, it will learn your patterns, and try to defeat you using your patterns and then, clicking on your choices and fun, snd then, clicking on your choices and fun, because we all want to go, "Rock, Paper, Scissors shoot!" So we made a custom vision model that would go, and detect your hand or whatever that is saying, this is Spock and then it would select it and play the game. So it was just great fun, and it was a lot more fun than a lot of the corporate demos that you see these days. >> All right Scott, you're doing a lot of different things at the show here. We said there's just a barrage of different announcements that were made. Love if you could share some of the things that might have flown under the radar. You know, Arc, everyone's talking about, but some cool things or things that you're geeking out on that you'd want to share with others? >> Two of the things that I'm most excited, one is an announcement that's specific to Ignite, and one's a community thing, the announcement is that .net Core 3.1 is coming. .net Core 3 has been a long time coming as we have began to mature, and create a cross platform open source .net runtime, but .net Core 3.1 LTS Long Term Support means that that's a version of .net core that you can put on a system for three years and be supported. Because a lot of people are saying, "All this open source is moving so fast! "I just upgraded to this, "and I don't want to upgrade to that". LTS releases are going to happen every November in the odd numbered years. So that means 2019, 2021, 2023, there's going to be a version of .net you can count on for three years, and then if you want to follow that train, the safe train, you can do that. In the even numbered years we're going to come out with a version of .net that will push the envelope, maybe introduce a new version of C#, it'll do something interesting and new, then we tighten the screws and then the following year that becomes a long term support version of .net. >> A question for you on that. One of the challenges I hear from customers is, when you talk about hybrid cloud, they're starting to get pulled apart a little bit, because in the public cloud, if I'm running Azure, I'm always on the latest version, but in my data center, often as you said, I want longer term support, I'm not ready to be able to take that CICD push all of the time, so it feels like I live, maybe call it bimodal if you want, but I'm being pulled with the am I always on the latest, getting the latest security, and it's all tested by them? Or am I on my own there? How do you help customers with that, when Microsoft's developing things, how do you live in both of those worlds or pull them together? >> Well, we're really just working on this idea of side-by-side, whether it be different versions of Visual Studio that are side-by-side, the stable one that your company is paying for, and then the preview version that you can go have side-by-side, or whether you could have .net Core 3, 3.1, or the next version, a preview version, and a safe version side-by-side. We want to enable people to experiment without fear of us messing up their machine, which is really, really important. >> One of the other things you were talking about is a cool community announcement. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? >> So this is a really cool product from a very, very small company out of Oregon, from a company called Wilderness Labs, and Wilderness Labs makes a micro-controller, not a micro-processor, not a raspberry pie, it doesn't run Linux, what it runs is .net, so we're actually playing Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock on this device. We've wired it all up, this is a screen from our friends at Adafruit, and I can write .net, so somehow if someone is working at, I don't know, the IT department at Little Debbie Snack Cakes, and they're making WinForms applications, they're suddenly now an IOT developer, 'cause they can go and write C# code, and control a device like this. And when you have a micro-controller, this will run for weeks on a battery, not hours. You go and 3D print a case, make this really tiny, it could become a sensor, it could become an IOT device, or one of thousands of devices that could check crops, check humidity, moisture wetness, whatever you want, and we're going to enable all kinds of things. This is just a commodity device here, this screen, it's not special. The actual device, this is the development version, size of my finger, it could be even smaller if we wanted to make it that way, and these are our friends at Wilderness Labs. and they had a successful Kickstarter, and I just wanted to give them a shout out, and I just wanted to give them a shoutout, I don't have any relationship with them, I just think they're great. >> Very cool, very cool. So you are a busy guy, and as Stu said, you're in a lot of different things within Microsoft, and yet you still have time to teach at community college. I'm interested in your perspective of why you do that? Why do you think it's so important to democratize learning about how to do this stuff? >> I am very fortunate and I think that we people, who have achieved some amount of success in our space, need to recognize that luck played a factor in that. That privilege played a factor in that. But, why can't we be the luck for somebody else, the luck can be as simple as a warm introduction. I believe very strongly in what I call the transitive value of friendship, so if we're friends, and you're friends, then the hypotenuse can be friends as well. A warm intro, a LinkedIn, a note that like, "Hey, I met this person, you should talk to them!" Non-transactional networking is really important. So I can go to a community college, and talk to a person that maybe wanted to quit, and give a speech and give them, I don't know, a week, three months, six months, more whatever, chutzpah, moxie, something that will keep them to finish their degree and then succeed, then I'm going to put good karma out into the world. >> Paying it forward. >> Exactly. >> So Scott, you mentioned that when people ask for advice, it's not about what language they do, is to, you know, is to,q you know, we talk in general about intellectual curiosity of course is good, being part of a community is a great way to participate, and Microsoft has a phenomenal one, any other tips you'd give for our listeners out there today? >> The fundamentals will never go out of style, and rather than thinking about learning how to code, why not think about learning how to think, and learning about systems thinking. One of my friends, Kishau Rogers, talked about systems thinking, I've hade her on my podcast a number of times, and we were giving a presentation at Black Girls Code, and I was talking to a fifteen-year-old young woman, and we were giving a presentation. It was clear that her mom wanted her to be there, and she's like, "Why are we here?" And I said, "All right, let's talk about programming "everybody, we're talking about programming. "My toaster is broken and the toast is not working. "What do you think is wrong?" Big, long, awkward pause and someone says, "Well is the power on?" I was like, "Well, I plugged a light in, "and nothing came on" and they were like, "Well is the fuse blown?" and then one little girl said "Well did the neighbors have power?", And I said, "You're debugging, we are debugging right?" This is the thing, you're a systems thinker, I don't know what's going on with the computer when my dad calls, I'm just figuring it out like, "Oh, I'm so happy, you work for Microsoft, "you're able to figure it out." >> Rebecca: He has his own IT guy now in you! >> Yeah, I don't know, I unplug the router, right? But that ability to think about things in the context of a larger system. I want toast, power is out in the neighborhood, drawing that line, that makes you a programmer, the language is secondary. >> Finally, the YouTube videos. Tell our viewers a little bit about those. you can go to D-O-T.net, so dot.net, the word dot, you can go to d-o-t.net, so dot.net, the word dot, slash videos and we went, and we made a 100 YouTube videos on everything from C# 101, .net, all the way up to database access, and putting things in the cloud. A very gentle, "Mr. Rodgers' Neighborhood" on-ramp. A lot of things, if you've ever seen that cartoon that says, "Want to draw an owl? "Well draw two circles, "and then draw the rest of the fricking owl." A lot of tutorials feel like that, and we don't want to do that, you know. We've got to have an on-ramp before we get on the freeway. So we've made those at dot.net/videos. >> Excellent, well that's a great plug! Thank you so much for coming on the show, Scott. >> Absolutely my pleasure! >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Stu Miniman., stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. (upbeat music)

>>From Miami beach, Florida. It's the queue covering a Chronis global cyber summit 2019. Brought to you by Acronis. >>Okay. Welcome back. Everyone's cubes coverage here and the Kronos is global cyber summit 2019 and Sarah inaugural event around cyber protection. I'm John Forrey hosted the cube. We're talking to all the thought leaders, experts talking about the platforms. We've got a great guest here, security analyst, author and Ted speaker. Karen Ellis, Zari who runs the besides Tel Aviv. Um, she gave a keynote here. Welcome to the queue. Thanks for coming on. >>Oh, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. >>Love to have you on. Security obviously is hot. You've been on that wave. Even talking a lot about it. You had talked here and opposed the conference. But for us, before we get into that, I want to get in and explore what you've been doing that besides Tel Aviv, this is the global community that would be runs a cyber week. He wrote a big thing there. >>So that's something that's really important to me. So 10 years ago, hackers and security researchers thing start that somebody called security besides which was an alternative community event for hackers that couldn't find their voice in their space. In the more mainstream events like RSA conference or black hat for example. That's when security besides was born 10 years ago. Now it's a global movement and there's been more than a hundred besides events. Just this year alone, just in 2019 anywhere from Sao Paolo to Cairo, Mexico city, Athens, Colorado, Zurich, London, and in my hometown of Tel Aviv. I was very proud to bring the besides idea and the concept to Tel Aviv five years ago. This year, 2020 will be our fifth year and we'll be, I hope our biggest year yet last summer we had more than 1200 participants. We take place during something called Telaviv cyber week, which if you've never visited Tel Aviv, that's your opportunity next year of Bellevue cyber Wade brings 9,000 people to Israel. >>It's hosted by Tel Aviv university where I'm also a researcher and all of these events are free. They're in English, they are welcoming to people from all sorts of places in all walks of life. We bring people from more than 70 countries and I think it's great that we can have that platform in Israel, in Tel Aviv to share not just our knowledge but also our points of view, our different opinions about the future of cyber security. Tel Aviv university. Yeah. So Tel Aviv university hosts me cyber week and they're also the gracious hosts for the sites televi which runs as a nonprofit separate from the university. >>You know, I love these movements where you have organic, just organic growth. And then we saw that with the unconference wave couple years ago where you know, the fancy conferences got too stuffy to sponsor oriented, right? That's >>right. Yeah. Up there too. They want to have more face to face, more community oriented conversations, more or, yeah. So besides actually the first one was absolutely an unconference and to this day we maintain some of that vibe, that important community aspect of providing a stage for people that really may not have the opportunity to speak at Blackhat or here or there. They may not feel comfortable on a huge with all those lights on them. So we really need to have that community aspect of them and believe it or not. And unconference is how I got on the Ted stage because a producer from Ted actually came all the way to Israel to an unconference in the Northern city of Nazareth in Israel, and she was sitting in the room while I was giving a talk to 15 people in the lobby of a hotel. And it wasn't that, it wasn't, you know, I didn't have a big projector. >>It wasn't a fancy production on any scale, but that's where that took for loser found me and my perspective and decided that this was this sort of point of view deserves to have a bigger stage. Now with digital technologies, the lobby conference, we call it the lobby copy, cons, actions in the hallway, just always kind of cause do you have a programs? It's not about learning anymore at these events because if all you can learn online, it's a face to face communal activity. I think it's a difference between people talking at you. Two people talking with you and that's why I'm very happy to give talks and I'm here focused on sharing my point of view. But I also want to focus on having conversations with people and that's what I've been doing this morning, sharing my points of view, teaching people about how I think the security worlds could look like, learning from them, listening to them. >>And it's really about creating that sort of an atmosphere and there's a lot of tension right now in the security space. I want to get your thoughts on this because you know, I have my personal passion is I really believe that communities is where the action is in a lot of problems can be solved if tapped properly, if they want, if they're not used or if they're, if the collective intelligence of a community can be harnessed. Yes, absolutely. Purity community right now has a imperative mandate, which is there's a lot of to do better. I think good that could be happening. The adversaries are at scale. You seeing, um, you know, zero day out there yet digital warfare going on, you got all kinds of things on a national global scale happening and people are worried. Absolutely. So there's directions, there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of panic going on these days. >>If you're an average individual, you hear about cybersecurity, you're of all hackers, you're thinking, Oh my God, they should turn all of my devices off, go live in the woods with some sheep and that's going to be my future. Otherwise I'm a twist and I agree with you. It's the responsibility, all the security industry and the security community to come together and also harness the power and the potential of the many friendly hackers out there. Friendly hackers such as myself, security researchers and not all security researchers are working in a lab at the university or in the big company and they might want to, you know, be wherever they are in the world, but still contributing. This is why I talk about the hackers immune system, how hackers can actually contribute to an immune system helping us identify vulnerabilities and fix them. And in many cases I found that it's not just a friendly hackers, even the unfriendly ones, even the criminals have a lot to teach us and we can actually not afford not to pay attention, not to be really more immersed, more closely connected with what is happening in the hacker's world, whether it's criminal hackers underground or the friendly hackers who get together at community events, who share their work, who participate on bug bounty platforms, which is a big part of my personal work and my passion bug bounty programs for the viewers who are not familiar with it are frameworks that will help companies that you might rely on like Google or Facebook, United airlines or Starbucks or any company that you can imagine. >>So many big companies now have bug bounty programs in place, allowing them to actively reward individual hackers that are identifying vulnerabilities. Yeah. And they pay him a lot of money to up to millions of dollars. Yes, they do, but it's not just about the money, you know, don't, it's not just amount of money. There's all kinds of other rewards that place as well. Whether it's a fancy, you know, a tee shirt or a sticker, or in the case of Tesla for example, they give out challenge coins, the challenge coins that only go out to the top hackers. I've worked with them now you can't find anything with these challenge coins. You keep the tray, you can trade them in in the store for money. But what you can do is that you get a lot of reputational and you know, unmonitored value out of that as well. Additionally, you know another organization that's called them, the Pentagon has a similar program, so depending on his giving out, not just monetary rewards but challenge coins for hackers that are working with them. >>This reputation kind of system is really cutting edge and I think that's a great point. I personally believe that that will be a big movement in all community behavior because when you start getting into having people arbitrator who's reputable, that's an incentive beyond money. Well, what I've found great I guess, but like reputation also is important. I can tell you this because I've, I've this, I've really dissected and researched this in my academic work and the look at the data from several bug bounty programs and the data that was available. There's all kinds of value on the table. Some of the value is money and you get paid. And you know, last month I heard about the first bug bounty millionaire and he's a guy from Argentina. But the value is not just in the money, it's also reputational value. It's also work value. So some hackers, some security researchers just want to build up their resume and then they get job offers and they start working for companies that may have never looked at them before because they're not graduates of this and that school didn't have this or that upbringing. >>We have to remember that from, from the global perspective, not everybody has access to, you know, the American school system or the Israeli school system. They can't just sign up for a college degree in cybersecurity or engineering if they live in parts of the world where that's not accessible to them. But through being a researcher on the bug bounty platform, they gain up their experience, they gain up their knowhow, and then companies want to work with them and want to hire them. So that's contributing to the, you've seen this really? Yeah. We've seen this and the reports are showing this. The data is showing this, all of the bug bounty programs that ha have reports that come out that show this information as well. Do you see that the hackers on bug bounty pack platforms that usually under 30 a lot of them are. They're 30 they're young people. >>They're making their way into this industry. Now, let me tell you something. When I was growing up in Israel, that was a young hacker. I didn't know any bug bounty programs. None of that stuff was around. Granted, we also didn't have a cyber crime law, so anything I did wasn't officially illegal because we didn't have, yeah, it wouldn't necessarily. Fermentation is good. It certainly was and I was very driven by curiosity, but the point I'm trying to make is that I didn't actually have a legal, legitimate alternative to, you know, the type of hacking that I was doing. There wasn't any other option for me until it was time for me to serve in the Israeli military, which is where I really got my chops. But for people living in parts of the world where they don't have any legitimate legal way to work in cybersecurity, previously, they would have turned to criminal activities to using their knowhow to make money as a cybercriminal. >>Now that alternative of being part of a global immune system is available to them on a legitimate legal pathway, and that's really important for our workforce as well. A lot of people will tell you that cybersecurity workforce needs all the help it can get. There's a shortage of talent gap. A lot of people talk about the talent gap. I believe a big part of the solution is going to come from all of these hackers all over the world that are now accessing the legitimate legal world of cybersecurity or something. I want to amplify that. Certainly after this interview, I'd love to follow up with you. Really, we will come to Tel Aviv. It's on our list for the cube stuff. We'll be there. We'd love to launch loving mutation. What you're talking about is an unforeseen democratization, the positive impact of the world. I want you to just take a minute to explain how this all came together for this. >>With your view on this reputational thing. I talk about the impact. Where does it go beyond just reputational for jobs? What? How does a community flex and organically grow from this and so one thing that I'm very happy to see, I think in the past couple of years, the reputations generally of hackers have become important and that the concept of a hacker is not what we used to think about in the past where we would automatically go to somebody who was a criminal or a bad guy. Did you know that the girl Scouts organization, the U S girl Scouts are now teaching girls Scouts to be hackers. They're teaching them cybersecurity skills. Arguably, I would claim this is a more important skill than making cookies or you know, selling cookies. Certainly a more money to survive in the wilderness. Why not in the digital wilderness? Yes, in a fire counter than that. >>More than that, it's about service. So the girl Scouts organization's always been very dedicated to values of service. Imagine these girls, they're now becoming very knowledgeable about cybersecurity. They can teach their peers, their families, so they can actually help spread. The more you build a more secure world, certainly they could probably start the fire or track a rapid in the forest or whatever it is that girl Scouts used to do that digitally too. That's called tracing. Really motivating that person. I think that's aspiring to many young women. That's very kind of, you actually have to have more voices out there. What can we do differently? What help? What can I do as a guy, as in the industry, I have two daughters. Everyone has, as I get older, I have daughters because they care now, but most men want to help. What can we do as a group? >>So I think you're absolutely right that diversity and inclusivity within the technology workforce is not a problem there. Just the underrepresented groups need to solve by. It's actually an issue for the entire group to solve. It's men or women or any underrepresented minority and overrepresented groups as well because diversity of the workforce will actually help build a more resilient, sustainable workforce and will help with that talent gap, that shortage of people of skilled employees that we mentioned. Others, a few things that you can do. I personally decided to do what I can, so I contributed to a book called women in tech at practical guide and in that book there's also a chapter for allies. So if you're a person that wants to help a woman or women in tech in your community, you are very welcome to check out the book. It's on Amazon, women in tech, a practical guide. >>I'm a contributor to that and myself. I also started a group called leading cyber ladies, which is a global meetup for women in cyber security and we have chapters on events in Israel, in New York city, in Canada, and soon I believe in United Kingdom and Silicon Valley and perhaps in your company or in your community, you could help start a similar group or maybe encourage some of the ladies that you know to start a group, help them by finding a space, creating a safe environment for them to create meetups like that by providing resources, by sponsoring events, by mentoring does a few, a lot of things. Yeah, there's a lot of things that you can do and it's certainly most important to consider that diversity in the workforce is everybody's issue with Cod. Something just one gender or one group needs to figure out how to be a big bang theory. >>You can share with three people, two people, absolutely organic growth or conditional. Yes, certainly. And as men, if you don't want to, you know, start them an event for women because that may seem disingenuous, but you can do certainly encourage the women that you find around you. In your workforce to see if they want to maybe have a meetup and if they do, what kind of help you can offer? Can you run the AB for them? Can you as sponsored lacrosse songs, whatever kind of help that you can offer to create that sort of a space. The reason we we started cyber ladies is because I didn't see enough women speaking at security events, so I wanted to fray the meet up where the women in cybersecurity could share their work network with one another and really build up also their speaking port portfolio, their speaking powers so that they can really feel more comfortable speaking and sharing their work on other events as well. >>Camaraderie there too. Yes, it very important. Thank you so much to you now, what is your, your professional and personal interests these days? What's getting you excited? So there's some of the cool things. That's a fantastic question. So one thing I'm super excited about is that I'm actually collaborating with my sister. So my sister, believe it or not is a lawyer and she's a lawyer who specializing in cyber line, intellectual property privacy, security policy work, and I'm collaborating with her to create a new book which would be a guide to the future of cybersecurity from the hacker's perspective and the lawyers perspective because we are seeing a lot of regulators, a lot of companies that are now really having to follow laws and guidelines and regulations around cybersecurity and we really want to bring these two points of view together. We've already collaborated in the past and in fact my sister has worked on the legal terms of many of the bug bounty programs that I mentioned earlier, including the Tesla program. >>So it's very exciting. I'm very proud to be able to work with my younger sister who followed me into the cyber world. I'm the hacker, she's the lawyer and we are creating something together. Dynamic duo that's going to be, I'm excited to interview her. Yeah, so in my family we call her the tour Vogue version. Can you imagine that together? It's really unstoppable. We didn't have a chance to speak together at the RSA conference earlier this year and that was really unique. Am I going to fall off on that with the book? Well, our platform is your platform. Anything we can do to help you get the word out, super exciting work that you're doing. We think cyber community will be one of the big answers to some of the challenges out there. And we need more education. Law makers and global politicians have to get more tech savvy. Yes, this is a big, everybody, it's everybody's issue. Like I said in this morning speech, everybody's on the front lines. It's not the cyber generals or you know, the hackers in the basements that are fighting. We are on that digital Battlefront and we all have to be safer together. Karen, thanks for your great insights here in energy. Bug bounties are hot. The community is growing. This is the cyber conference here that, uh, Acronis global cyber summit 2019. I'm John Barry here to be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> from the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the cue now Here's your host Day Volonte. >> Hello, everyone, this is David lot. They fresh fresh off the red eye from VM World 2019. And what I wanted to do was share with you some analysis that I've done with our friends at E. T. R. Enterprise Technology Research. We've begun introducing you to some of their data. They have this awesome database 4500 panel, a panel of 4500 end users end customers, and they periodically go out and do spending surveys. They've given me access to that spending data and what I wanted to do because because you had a number of companies announced this this quarter, I wanted to do a storage drill down so pure. Announced in late July, Del just announced yesterday late August. Netapp was mid August. HP was last week again late August, and IBM was mid July. So you have all these companies, some of which are pure plays like pure netapp. Others of you know, big systems companies on DSO. But nonetheless, I wanted to squint through the data and share with you the storage spending snapshot for the second half of 2019. So let's start with the macro. >> What you heard on the conference calls was some concern about the economy. There's no question that the tariffs are on people's minds, particularly those with large exposure exposure in China. I mean, Del obviously sells a lot of PCs in China, so they're very much concerned about that. IBM does a lot of business there, pure, really. 70% appears business roughly is North America, so they're not as exposed so But the macro is probably looks like about 2% GDP growth for the quarter i. D. C. Has the overall tech market growing at two ex GDP. Interestingly, a Gartner analyst told me in May on the Cube that there is no correlation between GDP and I t spend, which surprised me. Some people disagree with that, but But that surprised me. But nonetheless, we we still look at GDP and look at that ratio. Sometimes the other macro is component costs for years. For the storage business the last several years, NAND pricing has been a headwind. Supply has been down, it's kept prices up. It has kept all flash arrays more expensive relative to some of the spinning disc spread the brethren something that we thought would attenuate sooner. It finally has. Nan pricing is now a tailwind, so prices air coming down. What that does is it opens up new workloads that we're really kind of the domain of spinning disk before big data kind of workloads is an example. Not exclusively big data, but it just opens up more workloads for storage companies, particularly Flash Cos The other big macro we're seeing is people shifting to subscription models. They want to bring that cloud like model to the data wherever two lives on Prem in ah, hybrid environment in a public cloud and company storage companies trying to be that that data management plane across clouds, whether on prime it. And that's a That's a big deal for a lot of these companies. I'll talk a little bit more about that, so you're seeing this vision of a massively parallel, scalable distributed system play out >> where >> data stays where it lives. Edge on Prem Public Cloud and storage is really a key part of that. Obviously, that's where the data lives, but you're not seeing data move across clouds so much. What you are seeing is metadata, move and compute. Move to the data so that type of architecture is being set up. It's supported by architecture's, not the least of which are all flash, and so I want to get into it. >> Now I want to share with you some data on this slide. If you wouldn't mind bringing it up. Alex on spending momentum. So the title size spending moment of pure leads, the storage packs and what this shows is the vendor on the left hand side. And it essentially looks at the breakdown of the spending survey where e t r ask the buyers of the different companies products. What percent of the spending is going to go toward replacing? They're gonna replace the vendor. Are they gonna decrease? Spend. That's the bright red is replace. The sort of pinkish is decreased, the spending. The gray is flat. The sort of evergreen forest green is increase in the lime. Green is ad, so if you take the lime green in the forest, green ad and the grow on you subtract the rest. You get the net score, so the higher the net score, the better. you can see here that pure storage has the highest net score by far 48%. I'll show you some data later. That correlates to that when we pull out some of the data from the income statements. >> So this is Ah, the >> July 2019 spending intention surveys specifically asking relative to the second half what the spending intentions are. So this looks good for pure on again. I'll show you Cem, Cem Cem Income State income statement data that really affirms this Hewlett Packard Enterprise actually was pretty strong in the spending survey. Particularly nimble is growing HP Overall, the storage business was was down a little bit, I think, three points, but nimble was up 28%. So you're seeing some spending activity there. Netapp did not have a great quarter. They were down substantially. I'll show you that in a minute. On dhe, it looks like they've got some work to do. Deli M. C. I had a flat quarter. Dell has a such a huge install base. They're everywhere on DSO. Everybody wants a piece of their pie. Del. After the merger of the acquisition of the emcee, their storage share declined. They then bounce back. They had a much, much stronger year last year, and now it's sort of a dogfight with the rest. IBM IBM is in a major cycle shift. IBM storage businesses is heavily tied to its mainframe businesses. Mainframe business was way, way down, its overall systems. Business was down, even though power was up a little bit. But the mainframe is what drives the systems business, and it drags along a lot of storage. IBM has got a new mainframe announcement that it's got to get out. It's got a new high end storage announcement that it's got to get out, and it's really relying on that. So you can see here from the E T. R data, you know, pure way out ahead of the pack continues to gain share about over 1000 respondents to this. So a lot of shared accounts by shared accounts mean the number of accounts that that actually have some combination of multiple storage vendors. And so they were able to answer this 1068 respondents pure the clear winner here. Now let's put this into context. So the next slide I want to show you some of the key performance indicators from the June quarter off the income statements. >> So again you see, I get the vendor. The revenue for the quarter of the year to year growth for that quarter relative to last year. The gross margin in the free cash flow, just some of the key performance indicators that I'd like to look at. So look at pure Let's go, Let's go to the third column Look at growth pure 28% growth. Del flat 0% for this is just for storage. There's a storage growth. NETAPP down 16% end up in a bad quarter, HP down 3%. IBM down 21% Do due to the cycle that I discussed, You see the revenue, um, pure, growing very, very fast. But you know, from a small base or at 396 million versus compared that to Dell's 4.2 billion net APs 1,000,000,000 plus H p e. Almost a billion in IBM not nearly as large. And then look at the gross margin line. Pure is the industry's leading gross margin. It's just slightly above 69%. Dell is a blended that Asterix is a blended gross margin, so it includes PCs, servers, service's of V M wear, everything and, of course, storage. So now, when dehl was a public company before it went private, it's gross. Margins were in the high teens. So Del is in gross margin heaven with with both E, M C and V M wear now as part of its portfolio NetApp high gross margins of 67%. But that gross margin is largely driven by its gross margins from software and maintenance. And so that's a screen considerable contributor. Their product gross margins air in the mid fifties, kind of where I think E. M. C. Probably is these days. And when the emcee was a public company, it's gross. Margins were in the mid sixties, but then, as it was before, went private. I think it was dipping into the high fifties as I recall you CHP again, that's a blended gross margin, just roughly around 34%. I don't have as much visibility on their their storage gross margins. I would I would say they are below, in my view, what DMC and net out well below what Netapp would be on then IBM. That's again blended gross margin includes hardware. Software service is 47.4% probably half or more of IBM businesses. Professional service is on. IBM has, of course, a large software business as well. So and then the free cash flow you can see pure crushing it from the standpoint of of gaining share, I mean way, way ahead of the other market players, but only 14 million in free cash flow. So coming from a much, much smaller base, however pure, is purely focused on storage. So there are Andy. All their R and D is going into that storage space. DEL. Free cash flow very large. 3.4 billion that again is across the entire company. Net App. You can see 278 million h p e 648 million great quarter for HP from a free cash flow standpoint, I think year to date they're probably 838 140 million. So big Big quarter. For them. An IBM A 2.4 billion again. Dell, HP, IBM. That's across the company, as is the gross margin. So the the spending data from E. T. R. Really shows us that pure, strong Aziz showed you that very high net score and the intentions look strong, so I would suspect pure is going to continue to lead in the market share game. I don't see that changing. Certainly there's no evidence in the data. I think I think everybody else is in a sort of a dogfight del holding firm, you know, 0%. You'd like to see a little bit of growth out of that, but I think Del is actually, you know, Dell's key metric is, Are we growing faster than the market? That's that's they're sort of a primary criterion in metric for Dell is to grow faster than the overall market because that means you're growing some share. I think Del is comfortable with that. Della's gross margins actually were helped this this quarter by the fact that Dell server business was down 12%. There was a higher storage mix, so it propped up the margin a little bit. But again, generally speaking, it looks like pure is the market share winner here, but much, much smaller than the other guys. HB limbo very strong, and it shows up in the survey data from E T. R. And an IBM just needs to get a new product cycle out. So we'll come back. >> We'll take a look at this in in in in January and see how you know what it looked like and will continue to fall. Obviously, the income statement and the public reporting pure accelerate is coming up next month. Justin in mid September. I have no doubt, you know, pure has been first in a lot of different areas, right? They were first really all flash Ray. The only all flash. You're a company that ever reached escape velocity. They were they in Nutanix for the first kind of new $1,000,000,000 companies that people said would never have a billion dollar company. Pure is a pure play storage company, you know? Well, over a billion. Now, you know, they were first with that evergreen model. They made a lot of play there. You know, the first with envy, Emmy and first with the Nvidia relationships with Superior likes to be first. I have no doubt and accelerate next month down in Austin, curious that they picked Austin in Dell's backyard. I have no doubt that they're gonna have some other firsts at that show. Cuba be there watching just off of the emerald, the other big player here. Of course, that I'm not showing his v. San visa is very, very strong. You know, the D. E. T. Our data shows that, and certainly the data from the income statement shows of'em were NSX, the networking products, their cell phone to find network in their self defined storage of the the the V San. Very, very strong Pat Girl singer on the Cube. We asked him last week, Thio, take us through. So if someone has big memories and one of them was sort of East san, Excuse me. One of them was V San, and the board meeting at with Joe Tucci was on the Vienna where board really put a lot of pressure on Pat's and you can't do this to me. It's funny. Emcee had the shackles on the M, where for a number of years, but the shackles are off and visa is very, very strong. So these are some of the things we're keeping an eye on. Thanks for watching everybody busy day Volante, Cuban sites. We'll see you next time

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum, World 2019 brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We're here! Mosconi North for VM World 2019 10th Year of the Cube covering VM World. I'm stupid and my co host is John Troyer. And welcome to the program to guest from Del Technologies. Sitting to my right is Tender, my Mondal, who's the director of storage solutions and sitting to his right is David when the senior director of server, product planning and management also with Dell. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. All right, so we've got server and storage and talk about something that we've been talking about for a while on the server side been delivered for a bit and on the storage side is now rolling out. So everybody's favorite topic. Nonviolent till memory express or envy me as it rolls off the tongue storage class memory, or SCM and lots of other things, you know, down there, really helping a big, transformational wave that, you know, we really changes how our applications interact with the infrastructure channel, you know, bring us up to date on the latest. >> Sure on, let's start where you ended. We're seeing explosion off applications, right? And in fact, in mornings, keynote. Bad girl singer had a stocky speaks. There are 352 million enterprise applications today. On it will be 792 million in three years. Now, as the applications are growing exponentially, we cannot keep growing the infrastructure at that rate, So N v m e is the way we can consolidate it. Ah, lot off the infrastructure. If we can think about in tow and envy, Emmy starting from the server in fear me off our fabric through the stories area down, toe the back end with envy Emmy necessities. This actually can put together a great platform where you can consulate it. Ah, lot off the applications and delivering the high performance low latency that will need while meeting video surfaced level objectives so we can go over a little bit off the details, but I think it all starts from envy me over fabric coming from the server to the story, Ari. So probably like that's the fourth step we need to consider >> David. Do You know, I love this discussion when we get to talk at the application later because, you know, Flash changed the market a lot. You know, it's like, you know, much better energy, and it's much faster, Anything. But you know, this inflection point that we're talking about for application modernization, you know, envy me is one of those enablers there and something they know your team's been working on >> for a while. Yeah, actually, on the power each side we've been, You know, we've been embracing the benefits of enemy for quite some so many years now, right? We start out by introducing enemy in our 12 generations servers, you know, frontloaded hot, serviceable drives. And then, of course, we branch out from there on in today, you know, Ah, a lot of the servers from a Polish family all support enemy devices. So the benefit there is really giving customer choices in terms of what kind of storage kind of cheering they wanted, you know, for the applications needs. Right now, one of things that's great about, you know, enemy over fabric is it's more than just a flash storage itself. It's about enabling the standards, you know, across the host across the data fire Break down to the storage really to deliver on the overall performance that you know the applications of needs and buy, you know, improving I ops and lower late, Easy overall, from a server perspective, this just means that we're releasing more CPU cycles back into the application so that they can run different types of workloads. And for us, this is this is a great story from power. Just was from Power Macs and coming together to enable this Emmy, Emmy or fabric. >> You know, I'm I'm I'm kind of slow about some of these things, but if you kind of squint at the history and, you know, we went from the PC revolution and then we had, you know, we had Sands and raise right and we had we had centralized toward shared storage last couple of years, a lot of interest and stale right hyper converged. And you had a You had a lot of pizza boxes with the storage right there. It's I mean, I now think right and I'm following the threat, I think which is now that where we now can have ah, Iraq with again a fabric and and again, now we can We can focus on our envy me storage over our envy me over fabric driven, solid state storage somewhere below my servers that are that are doing handling compute somewhere else. Is that that the future we're headed towards now >> Yes. I mean, everything has its place. But to give you the perspective, right? It's not just, I mean coming down to the storage area, but how This is enough bling, the future storage as well. And the storage class memory is the perfect example. And as Defeat said, let's take power, Max, as an example, right. Eso in power Max, you can It is like entrant, envy me ready like you get envy emi over Fabrica de front end But then we have n v m E s s trees in the back end. The thing is now it is also the N v m e is enabling technologies like stories class memory which is bringing in very high performance, very less latency Latency is going down in the order off like tents off microseconds. Now this is as close as you can get. Tow the like Dedham with persistent story. However, you need a balance. This is like order of magnitude are costlier. Now you got bar Max. What we're doing in terms of first, it's envy me. Done right? What do you mean by that? You have, like, Marty controller architectures that can actually do this level of parallel processing and our concurrency. And then we have bought, like, ECM for storage, class, memory and envy, Emmy essences. And we're doing intelligent tearing best on the built in mission learning engine that we have. And it is looking at 40 million data sets. Really time to decide. Like which sort of walk lords should go on this same drives which should go on and the M. E s estates. And on top of it, you add quality of service. So this platform gives you are service level objectives. You can choose from diamond, platinum, gold, silver or bronze, and you can consulate it. Ah, lot off those 352 million different types of applications on this area guaranteeing you are going to meet all off your SL s, no matter what type of applications they were consolidated into. >> Okay, I'm wonder if you could boast. You know bring us into what this means for VM wear customers and break it into two pieces. One is kind of a traditional virtualized shop. And secondly, you know, spend a lot of time in the keynote this morning talking about the cloud native containerized, you know, type of environment. Will there be any difference from from both of your world? >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, from from our perspective, right, what we've seen with the enablement of enemy platforms. You know, John, you brought up a very interesting point, right? It seems like you know, past couple years, we went from moving storage onto the host and now would envy me with fabric. We're actually taking the storage away from the host again. Right? And that's exactly true, because, you know, the first, the first statement you brought up stew. It's about how flash enabled different applications to run better on the host. What? We see that still right? And so what enemy? You know, we see the lower response time enabling our customers Thio run more jobs and more v ems per server. That's one aspect of it. You know, we've seen his benefit a lot of our platform today or using various different applications and solutions, and you talk about the ex rail that's a visa and story for Del. You Talk about Visa and ready notes for customers who want to build it themselves. Right platforms enabled would envy me back playing enemies. Storage allows them to use enemy or SAS sata whatever they want. But the point is, here is that when they're using every me flash, for instance, and I'll talk a little bit about the power climaxed with this all flash, uh, me back plane in a case in the study that we did with V San application running, oh ltp type of workload, we saw the response time with every me over traditional SAS, you know, from our competitors improved by 56% right, which means that from that same particular solution build out, we were able to add 44% more of'em on the platform. Now, at the same time, we increase the overall orders per minute by roughly over 600,000. Oh, pm's for that type of, uh, benchmark over our nearest competitors so that right there is the benefit that we see from my virtual eyes from, Ah, being where perspective >> on. I'll add from the storage perspective in two ways. In fact, in last vehement in a MIA, we demonstrated in tow and envy, EMI over five break up with special build off this fear supporting Envy me over fabric and stories. Class memory with envy Me drives what it gives you a regular like this fear best environment is that you have the ability to move your PM's around like the applications where the highest performance and Latin's is critical. It will be on those special service levels and special like de testers. In fact, that demonstration was like ECM did a store, and in P m E Sense media does so in the same fabric with in Bar Mexican moved things around, whether it's like regular Fibre Channel or CNN and then the other part. I want to add in the morning like we saw the announcement that now communities is built in or will be built in with the years Excite platform, right and you're sexy is bread and butter off all the storage customers that we have now with like when you consider those, uh, those things built in under this fear black from Think about, like how many applications? How many actualized workloads you can run, where that it's on premise or humor. Cloud on AWS. All of those consolidation, as well as like the performance needs while reducing your footprint does the benefit of the V M R R shops. But the PM admits are going to see from the storage site >> again. I'm not following the parts, but what kind of we're not talking about a couple of megabytes here anymore, Right? What size of parts are shipping these days? So >> So, from our perspective, up to 77 gigabyte actually start. Seven terabytes drives are available on the markets today for Envy Me Now, whether customer by those drives, you know, it depends on economic factor. But yeah, it's something that's in this available from Dell >> so on. I'll act to what David said so far in CM drives 750 gig to 1.5. Articulate a C M drives on Dwell ported often drives that will be available in the power Max Acela's 15 terabyte envy EMI assistants. So this is the capacity we're talking about. And again the Latin's is at the application level, like from the storage like you're going to see, like, less than 300 microsecond. That's the power we are bringing in with this technology to the market. >> Give >> us a >> little look forward we talked about, you know, envy me has been shipping for a bit on the servers now, really rolling out on the storage side, I saw there's a lot of started from the space. You know, one recent acquisition got guts and people talking. What? What should we be looking for from both of you over kind of the next 6 to 12 months. >> So over next to a next 6 to 12 months, he will see a lot of innovation in this case from the storage site where wth e order of magnitude. I mean, the one single Ari, I mean, today it supports, say, like, 10 million I offs less than 500 microsecond latency. Ah, I cannot give you the exact details, but within like, a short time, these numbers are going to go up by more than, like, 50%. Latency is goingto get reduced. The troop would will be driving will actually like more than double s o. You see, like a lot of these innovations and kind of like evolution in terms off the drive capacities both from the CME, drives perspective. Envy me, assess these. Those will continue to expand, leading to foster performance. Better consolidation, Uh, for all the workloads. >> Yeah, from our perspective, I mean, you know, data growth is gonna continue. We all know that, And for us, it's like designing systems based on what the customers need, what the applications needs, right. And that's why we have different types of storage available today. So for us, you know, while we're doing a lot of things from a direct attached storage perspective, customers continue to have a need for share storage. EMI over fabric just provides a better know intense story for us, really from a Power edge and Power Macs perspective. But in the future, you asked what we're going to do. Well, we see the need to probably decouple stories, class memory from the host again. And really, what's preventing us from doing today? It's really having the right fabric in place to be able to deliver to that performance level that applications needs. MM evil fabrics, fibre Channel Ethernet ice, scuzzy or I'm sorry, Infinite Band, whatever. These are some of the things that you know we're looking forward to in the future to make that that lead. All >> right, well, it's really been great to see technology that I know the people that build your products have been excited about for many years. But rolling out into the real world deployment for customers that will transform what they're doing. So for John Troyer, I'm still Minuteman back with lots more coverage here from Be enrolled 2019. Thanks for watching the Cube.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live cube coverage here in Mosconi, north of the Emerald 2019. I'm Javert David launch their 10th year covering the emerald. We here with this team Cube alumni Von Stuart, vice president technology at pier Storage. Great to see you guys another year, another privilege to sit >> down and have a little chat. >> Another. Another year that Vienna where doesn't die of something storage doesn't go away every year. Containers is going to kill the end where this is revealing. The EM wears resiliency as virtualization platform is just second to none has been, well, document. We've been talking about it because the operational efficiencies of what they've done has been great. You guys air kicking butt in storage on again, a sector that doesn't go away. You gotta put the data somewhere. Eso stores continues toe do Well, Congratulations. What's the big What's the big secret? Thanks. >> Well, we just shared our cue to >> financial results last week. 28% year on your growth. We are the by far the fastest growing storage company, and I think there's a lot of disruption for the legacy vendors. Right now. They're getting hit on all angles. Next. Gen. If vendors like us followed by the cloud as well this platforms like H. C, I think it's been it's been a tough sledding for similar legacy vendors. >> Talk about your relationship with the end, where and why that's been so important for pure because again, again, resiliency operations. At the end of the day, that's what the rubber hits the road, making developers happy, but operating it's a key. Yeah, if you look at >> so that's a really good question. If you look at our business, Veum, where is the number one platform deployed on top of pure storage platforms? And that's probably the case for most of the storage vendors because of their dominant position in the infrastructure. That means, as VM were evolves their product platforms right. Well, that's the pivotal acquisition Veum or Claude Foundation via McLaren AWS. And as that'll expand, you have to as a partner continued to jointly innovate, sometimes hand in hand. Sometimes, you know, on parallel paths to drive value into that that market for those customers or you're not gonna make it. And our investments of engineering wise are significant. We've had a large number of new capability that we've ruled out through the years that are specific to VM, where that are either integrations or enhancements to our platform. You know, we believe through external data points, we are the number one V balls vendor, which is, you know, which was something that being were launched about 78 years back. That kind of dip, but has risen back up. Um, and >> we were key, >> I think, um, design partner right now with the cloud platforms, the Via MacLeod Foundation as well as, ah, humor coordinative us. >> So, as you know, this is our 10th year VM world. You go back to 2010. There was what I used to call the storage cartel. And you weren't part of it, right? Had early access to the AP eyes you had. So obviously e m c was in there. Um, you were really the on lee sort of newbie to reach escape velocity. Your storage. Now there's basically two independent storage companies over a billion dollars. You guys a net up. Um, so >> when I was at both, >> you saw you saw >> the opportunity and okay, leaned in hard. Yeah, there >> was a time when he's >> paid off. But so why do you think, um, you were able to be one of the rare ones to achieve escape velocity when many people said that will never happen. You'll never see another $1,000,000,000 storage company. And then I'm interested in how you're achieving number one in Viv balls. In a world where it seems like, you know, the ecosystem is getting a little tighter between Dow Wand VM where? But how do you guys thrive in that dynamic? >> I think there's a challenge for all vendors in terms of market and try to get your message through right. If you if you one better does something well, the rest of the market tries too obvious. Get that. We've been fortunate enough that through our channel ecosystem, our system's integrator partners right to actually be able to demonstrate the technology that gain there enthusiasm to drive it into the market and then actually demonstrated to the customers. And so how does that show up? Uh, I think it's fair to say our platforms are more intelligent, they're more automated and they they operated a greater scale. Then then the competitors and you can look at this through one lens and say, Well, it's Veum or a P I says in that Make all the storage the same And it's like it does from a via more operational standpoint, but it doesn't mean how you deliver on that value Prop or what us. A platform deliver above and beyond is at parody, and that's really where we demonstrate a significant difference. Let me give you one example. We have a lot of customers. Ah, a lot customer growth in the last 12 months around Custer's who are deploying eight c i, along with all flash raise. Right? And David Floyd had reached out recently and said, Well, wouldn't one, you know, compete with the other? It's like, Yes, there's overlap. But what we're finding from customers is they're looking to say if my applications need to be more cost effective, easy to manage its scale, we actually want to put it on all flash rain, You say, How could that be? I'll give you one simply example. Do you know what it takes anywhere from 10 x 200 x, less time to upgrade your V and where infrastructure on a shared array. Then if it's on on hyper converged because you don't have to go through the evacuation and rehydration of all your data twice right? And so things like that, they're just really simple that you wouldn't pick up in like a marketing scheme. If you are a customer at scale, you go well. I can't afford 100 man hours. I can afford woman. And so it's It's simple things like that. It's rapid provisioning. It's not having Silas that are optimized for performance or availability or cost. It's about saying, you know your time to implement is one time life cycle on hardware. But it's probably something happens every quarter for the next three years, right? >> So this is your point about >> innovation in the innovative vendors. Your the modernization of storage is planning for these use cases where the old way didn't work. >> Yeah, yeah, you mentioned that you were 10 years now, and one of things that I've said over the last six or seven years being up yours, one of things I think is really interesting about pure is that our founder, John Call Grove, came out of the volume manager and file system space at Veritas, right? He was the founder for those products. He understood the intersection between managing a storage array and your application, and that goes through our ethos of our products, where I think a lot of storage platforms, a start up platforms come from George guys who worked on the Harbour side. And so they take a faster, you know, Piper faster from the media, and they make another box that behaves like the other box from an operational perspective. >> So he said, a C I a compliment or competitors. I'm still not sure which. Maybe it's both and then say, Same question for V. San. Yeah, how do you So, >> um, on air that we've put a lot of investment in and started one with via more around the middle of last year was putting V sand with pure storage flash race together, and what you see that materialized now is when you look at via MacLeod Foundation or via MacLeod in eight of us. The management domains must be visa, and that's so that you can have an instant out of the box controlled, um, management plane that Veum where you know, executes on and then you have workload domains and those could be on ah, hyper converge platform. Or they could be on third party storage. And when you put those on pure, then you again, all the advantages that we bring to bear as an infrastructure with all the same simplicity scale in lifecycle management that you get from from just, you know, the VM where std see manager. And so it works very well together. Now, look, I'm sure what I share with you here. They'll be some folks who are on the V sand team that they themselves are to be like, you know, B s. But that's the nature of our business. One >> of these I want to get your thoughts on this side. Vons. You've always >> been kind of on the cutting edge on all the conversations we've had. I gotta ask you about the container revolution, which not new doctor came out many many years ago. Jerry Chen when he funded those guys and we covered that extensively upset there was a small changed kubernetes is all the rage orchestrating the containers is a pivotal role in all the action happening here. It's big part of how things were with the app side. So the question is, how does continues impact the storage world? How do you see that being integrated in? There's talk of putting Cooper names on bare metal, so you start to see HC. I come back. Devices are important, she started. See hardware become important again with that? >> Well, I love you. Drop of pivotal there, right? First off, kudos to Vienna, where for the acquisition pill, little guys are exceptional. What they don't have is a lot of customers, but the customers they do have our large customers, right? So we've got a fair amount of pivotal on pure customers, and they are all at scale. So I think it's a great acquisition for VM, where by by far the most enterprise class form of containers today, >> and they've always kind of been the fold. Now they're officially in the fold. Yes, formalize it. >> And so now that the road map that was shared in terms of what via Moore looks to do to integrate containers into the Essex I platform itself right, it's managing V, EMS and containers next year. That's perfect in terms of not having customers have to pick or choose between which platform and where you're going to play something, allow them to say you can deploy on whichever format you want. It runs in the same ecosystem and management, and then that trickles down to the gun in your storage layer. So we do a lot of object storage within the container ecosystems. Today, a lot of high performance objects because you know the file sizes of instances or applications is much larger than you know, a document filed that you or I might create online. So there's a big need around performance in that space, along with again management at scale. It's >> interesting we sent about about Pivotal and I, By the way, I like the acquisition, too, because I think it was cheap. Any time you can pick up $4 billion asset for 800 million in cash, you know gets my attention. But Pivotal was struggling in the marketplace. The stock price never even came close to its I po. You know, it's spending patterns were down. Do you feel as though the integration will VM Where will supercharge Pivotal? >> I absolutely agree that I've had this view that the container ecosystem was really, um uh, segmented you had comes that built their products off a container. So save your twitter or your Facebook, right? The platform that your customers and interact interact with is all ran by containers. Then you have an enterprise. You have containers, which was more kind of classic applications. Right? And that would take time for the applications to be deployed. And so what did you see now for Mike stuff, right? See if you can run as a container. Right? Run is a container. As the enterprise app start to roll over, the enterprise will start to evolve from virtual machines, two containers. And so I think it's the timing's right. That's not to dismiss any of where people I think is built the brand right now, which is helping companies build next gen platforms. You know, after big sure that I don't name drop customers references to pull back there. Yeah, I think the time is right. >> I'm interested in how you guys can further capitalized on containers. And we've been playing around with this notion of of data assurance containers, Fring complexity. And so, you know, complexities oftentimes your friend, because you're all about simplifying complexity. But so how do you capitalize on this container trend in the next 3 to 5 years? So you've got storage >> needs for containers that either tend to be ephemeral or persistent. And I think when containers were virtually created, it was always this notion that would be ephemeral. And it's like, Yeah, but where's the data reside? Ultimately, there's been significant growth around data persistence, and we've driven that in terms of leveraging the flecks of all drivers that have been put into the community, driving that into our pure service orchestrator RPS O'Toole, which supports pivotal in kubernetes derivatives. Today again, we've got proven large scale installs on this. So it's it's, um, it's providing the same class of storage. Service is simplicity and elegance in your integrations that we have for Vienna, where we've been doing that across pivotal already. Pivotals. Interesting, right? They don't validate hardware, the only validate software. So they validate our P S O and having that same value prop for that that infrastructure, because they are scale, you never find a small scale containers ecosystem, and I keep referencing that point when you get to scale considerations around. What does it take to allow that environment to to remain online and holly performance are significant considerations and weak cell >> There. We'll talk about your event coming up. You guys have pierced accelerate September 17th and 18th Coming up Osti the VM where ecosystem that you're part of here. Big part of that. You guys have a lot of customers. I know you can reveal any news, but what's expected at this show? What can people who are interested in either attending or my peach in some of the notable things that might be happening >> lot orange? We know that >> one. Number two I know the cubes gonna be there >> for two days will be there for two days. >> So hopefully you guys will get a load of conversations with both our our team, product management, engineering, maybe some of leadership, but also customers. I think customers are always the best statement you can make about how your how you're doing and market. I think you will see from us a number of announcements that I am prohibited to share today, but some really big things that we're gonna introduce the market. So it should be excited for that. And some just a great showing of our partner. Our alliance ecosystem will be there. Obviously, VM will be there in force as well as red hat with the open >> again, there's gonna be a cloudy >> future for you. It's girls would be very analytical. It's going to be there elastics going to be there. So, you know, >> you guys like to do first of these shows. I mean, kind of I don't view it first with an all flesh array, but probably one of the first if not first the evergreen thing ticked off a lot of people like, Why didn't we think of that? You were first with sort of bundling envy. Any in the whole thing. The announcement you guys made with video. That was before anybody else. You know, your whole cloud play you like, you like to be first, So we expect another first next month. Hopefully we >> will deliver, and, uh, you're not gonna get me to leak anything. >> Thanks for the insight, Vice President. Reality Lions, that pier storage. David, let me stay with us for more coverage. Robin Madlock. CMO is coming on and, of course, tomorrow. Michael Dell, Pat Girl singer and more and more great guest senior vice presidents from VM wear from all different groups. We'll be asking the tough questions here in the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering Dell Technologies. World twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> The one Welcome to the Special Cube Live coverage here in Las Vegas with Dell Technologies World 2019. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante breaking down day one of three days of wall the wall Coverage - 2 Cube sets. Uh, big news today and dropping here. Dell Technology World's series of announcements Cloud ability, unified work spaces and then multi cloud with, uh, watershed announced with Microsoft support for VMware with Azure are guests here theCUBE alumni that Seo, senior leader of'Em Where Sanjay *** and such a great to see you, >> John and Dave always a pleasure to be on your show. >> So before we get into the hard core news around Microsoft because you and Satya have a relationship, you also know Andy Jassy very well. You've been following the Clouds game in a big way, but also as a senior leader in the industry and leading BM where, um, the evolution of the end user computing kind of genre,  that whole area is just completely transformed with mobility and cloud kind of coming together with data and all this new kinds of applications. The modern applications are different. It's changing the game on how end users, employees, normal people use computing because some announcement here on their What's your take on the ever changing role of cloud and user software? >> Yeah, John, I think that our vision , as  you know, it was the first job I came to do at VMware almost six years ago, to run and use a computing. And the vision we had at that time was that you should be able to work at the speed of life, right? You and I happen to be on a plane at the same time  yesterday coming here, we should be able to pick our amps up on our devices. You often have Internet now even up at thirty thousand feet. In the consumer world, you don't lug around your CDs, your music, your movies come to you. So the vision of any app on any device was what we articulated with the digital workspace We. had Apple and Google very well figured out. IOS later on Mac,  Android,  later on chrome . The Microsoft relationship in end use the computing was contentious because we overlapped. They had a product, PMS and in tune. But we always dreamed of a day. I tweeted out this morning that for five and a half years I competed with these guys. It was always my dream to partner with the With Microsoft. Um, you know, a wonderful person, whom I respect there, Brad Anderson. He's a friend, but we were like LeBron and Steph Curry. We were competing against each other. Today everything changed. We are now partners. Uh, Brad and I we're friends, we'll still be friends were actually partners  now why? Because we want to bring the best of the digital workspace solution VMware brings workspace one to the best of what Microsoft brings in Microsoft 365 , active directory, E3 capabilities around E. M. S and into it and combined those together to help customers get the best for any device. Apple, Google and Microsoft that's a game changer. >> Tell about the impact of the real issue of Microsoft on this one point, because is there overlap is their gaps, as Joe Tucci used to say, You can't have any. There's no there's no overlap if you have overlapped. That's not a >> better to have overlapped and seems right. A gaps. >> So where's the gaps? Where this words the overlapping cloud. Next, in the end user world, >> there is a little bit of overlap. But the much bigger picture is the complementarity. We are, for example, not trying to be a directory in the Cloud That's azure active directory, which is the sequel to Active Directory. So if we have an identity access solution that connect to active directory, we're gonna compliment that we've done that already. With Octo. Why not do that? Also inactive Directory Boom that's clear. Ignored. You overlap. Look at the much bigger picture. There's a little bit of overlap between in tune and air Watch capabilities, but that's not the big picture. The big picture is combining workspace one with E. M s. to allow Office 365 customers to get conditional access. That's a game, so I think in any partnership you have to look past, I call it sort of these Berlin Wall moments. If the U. S and Soviet Union will fighting over like East Germany, vs West Germany, you wouldn't have had that Berlin wall moment. You have to look past the overlaps. Look at the much bigger picture and I find the way by which the customer wins. When the customer wins, both sides are happy. >> Tearing down the access wall, letting you get seamless. Access the data. All right, Cloud computing housely Multi cloud announcement was azure something to tell on stage, which was a surprise no one knew was coming. No one was briefed on this. It was kind of the hush hush, the big news Michael Delll, Pat Girl singer and it's nothing to tell up there. Um, Safia did a great job and really shows the commitment of Microsoft with the M wear and Dell Technologies. What is this announcement? First, give us your take an analysis of what they announced. And what does it mean? Impact the customers? >> Yeah, listen, you know, for us, it's a further That's what, like the chess pieces lining up of'Em wars vision that we laid up many years for a hybrid cloud world where it's not all public cloud, it isn't all on premise. It's a mixture. We coined that Tom hybrid loud, and we're beginning to see that realize So we had four thousand cloud providers starting to build a stack on VM, where we announced IBM Cloud and eight of us. And they're very special relationships. But customers, some customers of azure, some of the retailers, for example, like Wal Mart was quoted in the press, released Kroger's and some others so they would ask us, Listen, we're gonna have a way by which we can host BMO Workloads in there. So, through a partnership now with Virtue Stream that's owned by Dell on DH er, we will be able to allow we, um, where were close to run in Virtue Stream. Microsoft will sell that solution as what's called Azure V M, where solutions and customers now get the benefit of GMO workloads being able to migrate there if they want to. Or my great back on the on premise. We want to be the best cloud infrastructure for that multi cloud world. >> So you've got IBM eight of us Google last month, you know, knock down now Azure Ali Baba and trying you. Last November, you announced Ali Baba, but not a solution. Right >> now, it's a very similar solutions of easy solution. There's similar what's announced with IBM and Nash >> So is it like your kids where you loved them all equally or what? You just mentioned it that Microsoft will sell the VM wear on Azure. You actually sell the eight of us, >> so there is a distinction. So let me make that clear because everything on the surface might look similar. We have built a solution that is first and preferred for us. Called were MacLeod on a W s. It's a V m er manage solution where the Cloud Foundation stack compute storage networking runs on a ws bare metal, and V. Ember manages that our reps sell that often lead with that. And that's a solution that's, you know, we announced you were three years ago. It's a very special relationship. We have now customer attraction. We announce some big deals in queue, for that's going great, and we want it even grow faster and listen. Eight of us is number one in the market, but there are the customers who have azure and for customers, one azure very similar. You should think of this A similar to the IBM ah cloud relationship where the V C P. V Partners host VM where, and they sell a solution and we get a subscription revenue result out of that, that's exactly what Microsoft is doing. Our reps will get compensated when they sell at a particular customer, but it's not a solution that's managed by BM. Where >> am I correct? You've announced that I think a twenty million dollars deal last quarter via MacLeod and A W. And that's that's an entire deal. Or is that the video >> was Oh, that was an entirely with a customer who was making a big shift to the cloud. When I talked to that customer about the types of workloads, they said that they're going to move hundreds off their APs okay on premise onto via MacLeod. And it appears, so that's, you know, that's the type of cloud transformation were doing. And now with this announcement, there will be other customers. We gave an example of few that Well, then you're seeing certain verticals that are picking as yours. We want those two also be happy. Our goal is to be the undisputed cloud infrastructure for any cloud, any cloud, any AP any device. >> I want to get your thoughts. I was just in the analysts presentation with Dell technology CFO and looking at the numbers, the performance numbers on the revenue side Don Gabin gap our earnings as well as market share. Dell. That scales because Michael Delll, when we interviewed many years ago when it was all going down, hinted that look at this benefits that scale and not everyone's seeing the obvious that we now know what the Amazon scale winds so scale is a huge advantage. Um, bm Where has scale Amazon's got scale as your Microsoft have scales scales Now the new table stakes just as an industry executive and leader as you look at the mark landscape, it's a having have not world you'd have scale. You don't If you don't have scale, you're either ecosystem partner. You're in a white space. How do companies compete in this market? Sanjay, what's your thoughts on I thinkit's >> Jonah's? You said there is a benefit to scale Dell, now at about ninety billion in revenue, has gone public on their stock prices. Done where Dellvin, since the ideal thing, the leader >> and sir, is that point >> leader in storage leader inclined computing peces with Vienna and many other assets like pivotal leaders and others. So that scale VM, Where about a ten billion dollar company, fifth largest software company doing verywell leader in the softer to find infrastructure leader, then use a computing leader and softer, defined networking. I think you need the combination of scale and speed, uh, just scale on its own. You could become a dinosaur, right? And what's the fear that every big company should have that you become ossified? And I think what we've been able to show the world is that V M wear and L can move with scale and speed. It's like having the combination of an elephant and a cheetah and won and that to me special. And for companies like us that do have scaled, we've to constantly ask ourselves, How do we disrupt ourselves? How do we move faster? How do we partner together? How do we look past these blind spots? How do we pardon with big companies, small companies and the winner is the customer. That's the way we think. And we could keep doing that, you'll say so. For example, five, six years ago, nobody thought of VMware--this is going before Dell or EMC--in the world of networking, quietly with ten thousand customers, a two million dollar run rate, NSX has become the undisputed leader and software-defined networking. So now we've got a combination of server, storage and a networking story and Dell VMware, where that's very strong And that's because we moved with speed and with scale. >> So of course, that came to an acquisition with Nice Sarah. Give us updates on the recent acquisitions. Hep C e o of Vela Cloud. What's happening there? >> Yeah, we've done three. That, I think very exciting to kind of walk through them in chronological order about eighteen months ago was Velo Cloud. We're really excited about that. It's sort of like the name, velocity and cloud fast. Simple Cloud based. It is the best solution. Ston. How do we come to deciding that we went to talk to our partners like t other service providers? They were telling us this is the best solution in town. It connects to the data center story to the cloud story and allows our virtual cloud network to be the best softer. To find out what you can, you have your existing Mpls you might have your land infrastructure but there's nobody who does softer to find when, like Philip, they're excited about that cloud health. We're very excited about that because that brings a multi cloud management like, sort of think of it like an e r P system on top of a w eso azure to allow you to manage your costs and resource What ASAP do it allows you to manage? Resource is for materials world manufacturing world. In this world, you've got resources that are sitting on a ws or azure. Uh, cloud held does it better than anybody else. Hefty. Oh, now takes a Cuban eighty story that we'd already begun with pivotal and with Google is you remember at at PM world two years ago. And that's that because the founders of Cuban eighties left Google and started FTO. So we're bringing that DNA we've become now one of the top two three contributors to communities, and we want to continue to become the de facto platform for containers. If you go to some of the airports in San Francisco, New York, I think Keilani and Heathrow to you'LL see these ads that are called container where okay, where do you think the Ware comes from Vienna, where, OK, and our goal is to make containers as container where you know, come to you from the company that made vmc possible of'Em where So if we popularized PM's, why not also popularised the best enterprise contain a platform? That's what helped you will help us do >> talk about Coburn at ease for a minute because you have an interesting bridge between end user computing and their cloud. The service is micro. Services that are coming on are going to be powering all these APS with either data and or these dynamic services. Cooper, Nettie sees me the heart of that. We've been covering it like a blanket. Um, I'm gonna get your take on how important that is. Because back Nelson, you're setting the keynote at the Emerald last year. Who burn it eases the dial tone. Is Cooper Netease at odds with having a virtual machine or they complimentary? How does that evolving? Is it a hedge? What's the thoughts there? >> Yeah, First off, Listen, I think the world has begun to realize it is a world of containers and V ems. If you looked at the company that's done the most with containers. Google. They run their containers in V EMS in their cloud platform, so it's not one or the other. It's vote. There may be a world where some parts of containers run a bare metal, but the bulk of containers today run and Beyonce And then I would say, Secondly, you know, five. Six years ago, people all thought that Doctor was going to obliterate VM where, But what happened was doctors become a very good container format, but the orchestration layer from that has not become daugher. In fact, Cuban Eddie's is kind of taking a little of the head and steam off Dr Swarm and Dr Enterprise, and it is Cooper Navy took the steam completely away. So Senses Way waited for the right time to embrace containers because the obvious choice initially would have been some part of the doctor stack. We waited as Borg became communities. You know, the story of how that came on Google. We've embraced that big time, and we've stated a very important ball hefty on All these moves are all part of our goal to become the undisputed enterprise container platform, and we think in a multi cloud world that's ours to lose. Who else can do multi cloud better than VM? Where may be the only company that could have done that was Red Hat. Not so much now, inside IBM, I think we have the best chance of doing that relative. Anybody else >> Sanjay was talking about on our intro this morning? Keynote analysis. Talking about the stock price of Dell Technologies, comparing the stock price of'Em where clearly the analysis shows that the end was a big part of the Dell technologies value. How would you summarize what v m where is today? Because on the Kino there was a Bank of America customers. She said she was the CTO ran, she says, Never mind. How we got here is how we go floors the end wars in a similar situation where you've got so much success, you always fighting for that edge. But as you go forward as a company, there's all these new opportunities you outlined some of them. What should people know about the VM? We're going forward. What is the vision in your words? What if what is VM where >> I think packed myself and all of the key people among the twenty five thousand employees of'Em are trying to create the best infrastructure company of all time for twenty one years. Young. OK, and I think we have an opportunity to create an incredible brand. We just have to his use point on the begins show create platforms. The V's fear was a platform. Innocent is a platform workspace. One is a platform V san, and the hyper convert stack of weeks right becomes a platform that we keep doing. That Carbonetti stuff will become a platform. Then you get platforms upon platforms. One platforms you create that foundation. Stone now is released. ADelle. I think it's a better together message. You take VX rail. We should be together. The best option relative to smaller companies like Nutanix If you take, you know Veum Where together with workspace one and laptops now put Microsoft in the next. There's nobody else. They're small companies like Citrix Mobile. I'm trying to do it. We should be better than them in a multi cloud world. They maybe got the companies like Red Hat. We should have bet on them. That said, the end. Where needs toe also have a focus when customers don't have Dale infrastructure. Some people may have HP servers and emcee storage or Dell Silvers and netapp storage or neither. Dellery emcee in that case, usually via where, And that's the way we roll. We want to be relevant to a multi cloud, multi server, multi storage, any hardware, any cloud. Any AP any device >> I got. I gotta go back to the red hat. Calm in a couple of go. I could see you like this side of IBM, right? So So it looks like a two horse race here. I mean, you guys going hard after multi cloud coming at it from infrastructure, IBM coming at it with red hat from a pass layer. I mean, if I were IBM, I had learned from VM where leave it alone, Let it blossom. I mean, we have >> a very good partisan baby. Let me first say that IBM Global Services GTS is one about top sai partners. We do a ton of really good work with them. Uh, I'm software re partner number different areas. Yeah, we do compete with red hat with the part of their portfolios. Relate to contain us. Not with Lennox. Eighty percent plus of their businesses. Lennox, They've got parts of J Boss and Open Stack that I kind of, you know, not doing so well. But we do compete with open ship. That's okay, but we don't know when we can walk and chew gum so we can compete with Red Hat. And yet partner with IBM. That's okay. Way just need to be the best at doing containing platform is better than open shifter. Anybody, anything that red hat has were still partner with IBM. We have to be able to look at a world that's not black and white. And this partnership with Microsoft is a good example. >> It's not a zero sum game, and it's a huge market in its early days. Talk >> about what's up for you now. What's next? What's your main focus? What's your priorities? >> Listen, we're getting ready for VM World now. You know in August we want to continue to build momentum on make many of these solutions platforms. So I tell our sales reps, take the number of customers you have and add a zero behind that. OK, so if you've got ten thousand customers of NSX, how do we get one hundred thousand customers of insects. You have nineteen thousand customers of Visa, which, by the way, significantly head of Nutanix. How do we have make one hundred ninety thousand customers? And we have that base? Because we have V sphere and we have the Delll base. We have other partners. We have, I think, eighty thousand customers off and use of computing tens of millions of devices. How do we make sure that we are workspace? One is on billion. Device is very much possible. That's the vision. >> I think that I think what's resonating for me when I hear you guys, when you hear you talk when we have conversations also in Pat on stage talks about it, the simplification message is a good one and the consistency of operating across multiple environments because it sounds great that if you can achieve that, that's a good thing. How you guys get into how you making it simple to run I T. And consistent operating environment. It's all about keeping the customer in the middle of this. And when we listen to customs, all of these announcements the partnership's when there was eight of us, Microsoft, anything that we've done, it's about keeping the customer first, and the customer is basically guiding up out there. And often when I sit down with customers, I had the privilege of talking hundreds of thousands of them. Many of these CEOs the S and P five hundred I've known for years from S athe of'Em were they'LL Call me or text me. They want us to be a trusted advisor to help them understand where and how they should move in their digital transformation and compared their journey to somebody else's. So when we can bring the best off, for example, of developer and operations infrastructure together, what's called DEV Ops customers are wrestling threw that in there cloud journey when we can bring a multi device world with additional workspace. Customers are wrestling that without journey there, trying to figure out how much they keep on premise how much they move in the cloud. They're thinking about vertical specific applications. All of these places where if there's one lesson I've learned in my last ten twenty years of it has become a trusted advisor to your customers. Lean on them and they will lean on you on when you do that. I mean the beautiful world of technology is there's always stuff to innovate. >> Well, they have to lean on you because they can't mess around with all this infrastructure. They'LL never get their digital transformation game and act together, right? Actually, >>= it's great to see you. We'Ll see you at PM, >> Rollo. Well, well, come on, we gotta talk hoops. All right, All right, All right, big. You're a big warriors fan, right? We're Celtics fan. Would be our dream, for both of you are also Manny's themselves have a privileged to go up against the great Warriors. But what's your prediction this year? I mean, I don't know, and I >> really listen. I love the warriors. It's ah, so in some senses, a little bit of a tougher one. Now the DeMarcus cousins is out for, I don't know, maybe all the playoffs, but I love stuff. I love Katie. I love Clay, you know, and many of those guys is gonna be a couple of guys going free agents, so I want to do >> it again. Joy. Well, last because I don't see anybody stopping a Celtics may be a good final. That would be fun if they don't make it through the rafters, though. That's right. Well, I Leonard, it's tough to make it all right. That sounds great. >> Come on. Sanjay Putin, CEO of BM Wear Inside the Cube, Breaking down his commentary of you on the landscape of the industry and the big news with Microsoft there. Other partner's bringing you all the action here Day one of three days of coverage here in the Cubicle two sets a canon of cube coverage out there. We're back with more after this short break.

>> live from Orlando, Florida It's the que covering accelerate nineteen. Brought to you by important >> Hey, welcome back to the Cube. We are live at forty nine. Accelerate nineteen in Orlando, Florida I am Lisa Martin with Peter Births, and Peter and I are pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program during Mickey, the chief of security insights for forty nine. Derek. It's great to have you back on the program, >> so it's always a pleasure to be here. It's tze always good conversations. I really look forward to it and it's It's never a boring day in my office, so we're than happy to talk about this. >> Fantastic. Excellent. Well, we've been here for a few hours, talking with a lot of your leaders. Partners as well. The keynote this morning was energetic. Talked a lot about the evocation, talked a lot about the evolution of not just security and threat, but obviously of infrastructure, multi cloud hybrid environment in which we live. You have been with forty girl lives for a long time. Talk to us about the evolution that you've seen of the threat landscape and where we are today. >> Sure, Yeah, so you know? Yeah, I've been fifteen years now, forty guards. So I flashed back. Even a two thousand, for it was a vastly different landscape back there and Internet and even in terms of our security technology in terms of what the attack surface was like back then, you know, Ken Kennedy was talking about EJ computing, right? Because that's what you know. Seventy percent of data is not going to be making it to the cloud in the future. A lot of processing is happening on the edge on DH. Threats are migrating that way as well, right? But there's always this mirror image that we see with the threat landscape again. Threat landscape. Back in nineteen eighty nine, we started with the Morris Worm is very simple instructions. It took down about eighty percent of the Internet at the time, but he was It is very simple. It wasn't to quote unquote intelligence, right? Of course, if we look through the two thousands, we had a lot of these big worms that hit the scene like Conficker. I love you, Anna Kournikova. Blaster slammer. All these famous rooms I started Teo become peer to peer, right? So they were able to actually spread from network to network throughout organizations take down critical services and so forth. That was a big evolutionary piece at the time. Of course, we saw fake anti virus ransomware. Come on stage last. Whereas I called it, which was destructive Mauer That was a big shift that we saw, right? So actually physically wiping out data on systems these air typically in like star but warfare based attacks. And that takes us up to today, right? And what we're seeing today, of course, we're still seeing a lot of ransom attacks, but we're starting to see a big shift in technology because of this edge computing used case. So we're seeing now things like Swarm networks have talked about before us. So these are not only like we saw in the two thousand's threats that could shift very quickly from network to network talk to each other, right? In terms of worms and so forth. We're also seeing now in intelligence baked in. And that's a key difference in technology because these threats are actually able, just like machine to machine. Communication happens through a pea eye's protocols and so forth threats are able to do this a swell. So they ableto understand their own local environment and how to adapt to that local environment and capitalized on that effort on DH. That's a very, very big shift in terms of technology that we're seeing now the threat landscape. >> So a lot of those old threats were depending upon the action of a human being, right? So in many respects, the creativity was a combination of Can you spook somebody make it interesting so that they'll do something that was always creativity in the actual threat itself. What you're describing today is a world where it's almost like automated risk. We're just as we're trying to do automation to dramatically increase the speed of things, reduce the amount of manual intervention. The bad guy's doing the same thing with the swarms there, introducing technology that is almost an automated attack and reconfigures itself based on whatever environment, conditions of encounters. >> Yeah, and the interesting thing is, what's happening here is we're seeing a reduction in what I call a t t be a time to breach. So if you look at the attack lifecycle, everything does doesn't happen in the blink of an instant it's moving towards that right? But if you look at the good, this's what's to come. I mean, we're seeing a lot of indications of this already. So we work very closely with Miter, the minor attack framework. It describes different steps for the attack life cycle, right? You start with reconnaissance weaponization and how do you penetrator system moving the system? Collect data monetize out as a cyber criminal. So even things like reconnaissance and weaponization. So if you look at fishing campaigns, right, people trying to fish people using social engineering, understanding data points about them that's becoming automated, that you sought to be a human tryingto understand their target, try toe fish them so they could get access to their network. There's tool kits now that will actually do that on their own by learning about data points. So it's scary, yes, but we are seeing indications of that. And and look, the endgame to this is that the attacks were happening much, much quicker. So you've got to be on your game. You have to be that much quicker from the defensive point of view, of course, because otherwise, if successful breach happens, you know we're talking about some of these attacks. They could. They could be successful in matter of seconds or or minutes instead of days or hours like before. You know, we're talking about potentially millions dollars of revenue loss, you know, services. They're being taken out flying intellectual properties being reached. So far, >> though. And this is, you know, I think of health care alone and literally life and death situations. Absolutely. How is Fortinet, with your ecosystem of partners poised to help customers mitigate some of these impending risk changing risk >> coverage? Strengthen numbers. Right. So we have, ah, strong ecosystem, of course, through our public ready program. So that's a technology piece, right? And to end security, how we can integrate how we can use automation to, you know, push security policies instead of having an administrator having to do that. Humans are slow a lot of the time, so you need machine to machine speed. It's our fabric ready program. You know, we have over fifty seven partners there. It's very strong ecosystem. From my side of the House on Threat Intelligence. I had up our global threat alliances, right? So we are working with other security experts around the World Cyberthreat Alliance is a good example. We've created intelligence sharing platforms so that we can share what we call indicators of compromise. So basically, blueprints are fingerprints. You can call them of attacks as they're happening in real time. We can share that world wide on a platform so that we can actually get a heads up from other security vendors of something that we might not see on. We can integrate that into our security fabric in terms of adding new, new, you know, intelligence definitions, security packages and so forth. And that's a very powerful thing. Beyond that, I've also created other alliances with law enforcement. So we're working with Interpol that's attribution Base work right that's going after the source of the problem. Our end game is to make it more expensive for cyber criminals to operate. And so we're doing that through working with Interpol on law enforcement. As an example, we're also working with national computer emergency response, so ripping malicious infrastructure off line, that's all about partnership, right? So that's what I mean strengthen numbers collaboration. It's It's a very powerful thing, something close to my heart that I've been building up over over ten years. And, you know, we're seeing a lot of success and impact from it, I think. >> But some of the, uh if you go back and look at some of the old threats that were very invasive, very problematic moved relatively fast, but they were still somewhat slow. Now we're talking about a new class of threat that happens like that. It suggests that the arrangement of assets but a company like Ford and that requires to respond and provide valued customers has to change. Yes, talk a little about how not just the investment product, but also the investment in four guard labs is evolving. You talked about partnerships, for example, to ensure that you have the right set of resources able to be engaged in the right time and applied to the right place with the right automation. Talk about about that. >> Sure, sure. So because of the criticality of this nature way have to be on point every day. As you said, you mentioned health care. Operational technology is a big thing as well. You know, Phyllis talking about sci fi, a swell right. The cyber physical convergence so way have to be on our game and on point and how do we do that? A couple of things. One we need. People still way. Can't you know Ken was talking about his his speech in Davos at the World Economic Forum with three to four million people shortage in cyber security of professionals There's never going to be enough people. So what we've done strategically is actually repositioned our experts of forty guard labs. We have over two hundred thirty five people in forty guard lab. So as a network security vendor, it's the largest security operation center in the world. But two hundred thirty five people alone are going to be able to battle one hundred billion threat events that we process today. Forty guard lab. So so what we've done, of course, is take up over the last five years. Machine learning, artificial intelligence. We have real practical applications of a I and machine learning. We use a supervised learning set so we actually have our machines learning about threats, and we have our human experts. Instead of tackling the threat's one on one themselves on the front lines, they let them in. The machine learning models do that and their training the machine. Just it's It's like a parent and child relationship. It takes time to learn a CZ machines learn. Over time they started to become more and more accurate. The only way they become more accurate is by our human experts literally being embedded with these machines and training them >> apart for suspended training. But also, there's assortment ation side, right? Yeah, we're increasing. The machines are providing are recognizing something and then providing a range of options. Thie security, professional in particular, doesn't have to go through the process of discovery and forensics to figure out everything. Absolution is presenting that, but also presenting potential remedial remediation options. Are you starting to see that become a regular feature? Absolutely, and especially in concert with your two hundred thirty five experts? >> Yeah, absolutely. And that's that's a necessity. So in my world, that's what I refer to is actionable intelligence, right? There's a lot of data out there. There's a lot of intelligence that the world's becoming data centric right now, but sometimes we don't have too much data. Askew Mons, a CZ analysts administrators so absolutely remediation suggestions and actually enforcement of that is the next step is well, we've already out of some features in in forty six two in our fabric to be able to deal with this. So where I think we're innovating and pioneering in the space, sir, it's it's ah, matter of trust. If you have the machines O R. You know, security technology that's making decisions on its own. You really have to trust that trust doesn't happen overnight. That's why for us, we have been investing in this for over six years now for our machine learning models that we can very accurate. It's been a good success story for us. I think. The other thing going back to your original question. How do we stack up against this? Of course, that whole edge computing use case, right? So we're starting to take that machine learning from the cloud environment also into local environments, right? Because a lot of that data is unique, its local environments and stays there. It stays there, and it has to be processed that such too. So that's another shift in technology as we move towards edge computing machine learning an artificial intelligence is absolutely part of that story, too. >> You mentioned strengthen numbers and we were talking about. You know, the opportunity for Fortinet to help customers really beat successful here. I wanted to go back to forty guard labs for a second because it's a very large numbers. One hundred billion security events. Forty Guard labs ingests and analyzes daily. Really? Yes, that is a differentiator. >> Okay, that that's a huge huge differentiator. So, again, if I look back to when I started in two thousand four, that number would have been about five hundred thousand events today, compared to one hundred billion today. In fact, even just a year ago, we were sitting about seventy five to eighty billion, so that numbers increased twenty billion and say twenty percent right in in just a year. So that's that's going to continue to happen. But it's that absolutely huge number, and it's a huge number because we have very big visibility, right. We have our four hundred thousand customers worldwide. We have built a core intelligence network for almost twenty years now, since for Deena was founded, you know, we we worked together with with customers. So if customers wish to share data about attacks that are happening because attackers are always coming knocking on doors. Uh, we can digest that. We can learn about the attacks. We know you know what weapons that these cybercriminals they're trying to use where the cybercriminals are. We learned more about the cyber criminals, so we're doing a lot of big data processing. I have a date, a science team that's doing this, in fact, and what we do is processes data. We understand the threat, and then we take a multi pronged approach. So we're consuming that data from automation were pushing that out first and foremost to our customers. So that's that automated use case of pushing protection from new threats that we're learning about were contextualizing the threat. So we're creating playbooks, so that playbook is much like football, right? You have to know your your your offense, right? And you have to know how to best understand their tactics. And so we're doing that right. We're mapping these playbooks understanding, tactics, understanding where these guys are, how they operate. We take that to law enforcement. As I was saying earlier as an example, we take that to the Cyber Threat Alliance to tow our other partners. And the more that we learn about this attack surface, the more that we can do in terms of protection as well. But it's it's a huge number. We've had a scale and our data center massively to be able to support this over the years. But we are poised for scale, ability for the future to be able to consume this on our anti. So it's it's, um it's what I said You know the start. It's never a boring day in my office. >> How can it be? But it sounds like, you know, really the potential there to enable customers. Any industry too convert Transport sees for transform Since we talked about digital transformation transformed from being reactive, to being proactive, to eventually predictive and >> cost effective to write, this's another thing without cybersecurity skills gap. You know this. The solution shouldn't be for any given customer to try. Toe have two hundred and thirty people in their security center, right? This is our working relationship where we can do a lot of that proactive automation for them, you know, by the fabric by the all this stuff that we're doing through our investment in efforts on the back end. I think it's really important to and yeah, at the end of the day, the other thing that we're doing with that data is generating human readable reports. So we're actually helping our customers at a high level understand the threat, right? So that they can actually create policies on their end to be able to respond to this right hard in their own security. I deal with things like inside of threats for their, you know, networks. These air all suggestions that we give them based off of our experience. You know, we issue our quarterly threat landscape report as an example, >> come into cubes. Some of your people come in the Cuban >> talk about absolutely so That's one product of that hundred billion events that were processing every day. But like I said, it's a multi pronged approach. We're doing a lot with that data, which, which is a great story. I think >> it is. I wish we had more time. Derek, Thank you so much for coming by. And never a dull moment. Never a dull interview when you're here. We appreciate your time. I can't wait to see what that one hundred billion number is. Next year. A forty nine twenty twenty. >> It will be more. I can get you. >> I sound like a well, Derek. Thank you so much. We appreciate it for Peter Burress. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube?

>> From Santa Clara, California, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Technovation's World Pitch 2018. Now, here's Sonia Tagare. >> Hi, welcome back, I'm Sonia Tagare here with theCUBE in Santa Clara, California, covering Technovation's World Pitch Summit 2018, a pitch competition for girls to develop apps in order to create a better, positive change in the world. This week, 12 finalist teams are competing for their chance to win the gold or silver scholarships. With us today, we have on Amy Kim, the Chief Operating Officer for Iridescent. Amy, congratulations, and welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Can you tell me more about Technovation? >> Technovation is a program for girls where girls identify a problem in their community and they build a mobile app and a business plan to help solve that problem. Our girls, this past year we had almost 20,000 girls participate from all around the world. We had about 115 different countries registered this year so we've had really big growth. We are in a ninth year of operation for this program, and Iridescent, who's our mother organization, we're about 13 years old. >> How did you get involved with all of this? >> I actually started off as a mentor and a volunteer here at Iridescent, so I used to volunteer for Technovation team when we used to do a small program in L.A. and San Francisco where girls used to physically come to the studio and do the Technovation program and also I used to be a mentor for our Curiosity Machine program, which is a hands-on engineering design challenge program and competition. I was a volunteer for about four years, and then I came on board as a staff member about four years ago. >> What have you noticed has been the change from when you came on to now? >> I think one thing we have done at Iridescent strategically is grow the program globally, and we did that by making our programs free and all of our curriculum accessible. What we've really relied on is training our volunteers. I think you've talked to some of the mentors, some of the regional ambassadors. The trainer model has really helped us grow, and then we're able to reach more girls at a lower cost. Most of the money that we are able to raise, we are able to serve more children and serve more kids. >> What method do you think that's really helping getting these girls noticing Technovation? Is it online, is it through mentorship? >> Actually a lot of it is word of mouth. We were featured in a documentary called Code Girl about two years ago, and that has helped us get a broader reach, too, but really it's one girl who participates or one volunteer who volunteered with us. And our RAs, our regional ambassadors, in each of their countries they really do a great job promoting on our behalf to get more girls an opportunity to be a part of this program. >> What are you most excited about for this year's competition? >> That's a little tricky, cause we always get a little attached to every team, and we really try hard not to pick a favorite, but I think one thing we've seen this year is we updated our curriculum last year and I think the curriculum has really shown to be really strong and then more and more countries can adapt it. I think just seeing what the girls can accomplish, if you guys, what you'll see is that the girls are tackling really hard problems and they bring their own unique perspectives. Just seeing how they approach a problem is, to me, very exciting. >> What are these girls judged on for their pitches? >> They're mostly judged on a few criteria. One is the actual technical ability of their apps and how well do they solve the problem that they are trying to solve. Also, what is their business plan, is this a doable thing, does this business already exist, what is unique. There will be a little bit of public speaking, also how they present themselves, and the actual technical ability of the apps as well. >> That's great. What do you hope Technovation will bring for the greater girls in tech community? >> I'm a chemist by training, and I was the only woman in my PhD program, and I think one thing that really comes up a lot is that women oftentimes don't have mentors, don't have a community, and I think for these girls, I hope that as they grow and as they go to college and they pursue their career that they have a community that they built from here that will carry on through their career. >> What success stories do you have from past Technovation winners? >> That's a tricky question cause we have so many. We have, sorry, I'm trying to remember her name. We have a student who participated about four years ago and she built an app to help Alzheimer's patients, and what she has done is she has actually created a start-up and has been featured in New York Times before. We have stories like that, but we also have stories like in the slums of India where girls don't have internet, they don't have power everyday, so what they will do is they will code on post-it notes. Then when the power will come on, they will turn on their internet and they will be able to code it on App Inventor altogether in that one hour. We have success that really varies and the way we count our success is really the fact that the girls had an opportunity that they may not have had otherwise. That's really how we count our success. Even if they don't become technology entrepreneurs, our goal really is that they try to tackle something hard, they learn through their failures, and they persisted is really our goal. >> That's wonderful, and we're so glad to be here at Technovation. Thank you for having us on. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks for being here. I'm Sonia Tagare, and this is Amy Kim, and we're at Technovation's World Pitch Summit 2018. Stay tuned for more. (electronic tones)

(electronic music) >> Hello and welcome to the Cube conversation. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto studios with two great guests, Tara Chklovski, who is the founder and CEO of Iridescent and Anar Simpson, global ambassador of Technovation. First, thanks for coming in today. I appreciate moving your schedules around to come in. Thanks for coming into our studio. >> You bet, yeah. >> So Sundar Pichai was at your event. That's the big story this past week has been the Google memo from a low level employee who wrote some things that got the whole world shaking around gender biases, role of women in tech, and as we do a lot of women in tech as you know at the Cube. Hundreds and hundreds of women in over the years, friends, and also smart people. This is a pretty big moment for you guys. You had an event at Google. Sundar canceled his all hands meeting to address this under fear of retaliation and safety but came to your event on the Google campus. Surprising to many, as written up on VCode and the Verge. Pretty notable. So tell us about what happened. >> So this was the 2017 Technovation world pitch competition and the award ceremony and Sundar came and he talked to a lot of the girls who were presenting their ideas to solve problems in their community and then he had a little bit of a one on one conversation to learn a little bit more about the kinds of problems, their interest in technology, entrepreneurship, and then he addressed the crowd of 900 plus supporters and really reemphasized that there's a place for women in technology, and more importantly, for him and Google, that there's a place for these girls at Google. >> Talk about your mission. >> Right, so Technovation's mission is to empower girls to become technology entrepreneurs and it's much more than just learning how to code. It's really about telling girls that if there's a problem in their community, technology can help them have a very powerful voice. We've been running for eight years and Anar is our global ambassador who has helped us grow to more than 100 countries, but Technovation's relationship with Google is eight years long. Google has supported Technovation, was the very first technology company to support Technovation way before any other company saw the potential and since then, since 2010, Google has provided funding, mentors, spaces, not just across the U.S. but globally. >> Is it beyond entrepreneurship and beyond coding? Talk about specifically what you guys are bringing to folks outside of Silicon Valley. >> Oh, sure, so my role as the global ambassador for Technovation is really getting to girls all over the world and saying to them, you need to be engaged in technology. And what we found, as Tara mentioned, we've been doing this now, I've been doing this now for five years, is that we're building a movement. We're bringing in girls, we're bringing in mentors, we're bringing in companies and governments together to make this a reality for girls in tech careers in their own countries. >> What's some examples during your life when you had those kind of change moments? >> I think Iridescent, we are now in our 12th year, and every couple of months, it's a change moment because it's a test of grit and just believing in yourself because I started it with just an idea and grew it to be an organization that's all over the world and it doesn't come with just full hearted focus and a lot of courage is what I've seen, I think. I've also seen that how much you are passionate about an idea really swings how the other person is thinking and so the idea only matters so much, I think, of course I mean the track record and everything has to be there, but I think a lot of it depends on your own passion for it and I think I've come to realize that passion is maybe proportional to the complexity and the impact of the problem you're trying to solve, so if you're only trying to solve a small problem, you lose interest in two years. And maybe that's why, I'm always curious, like why do so many start ups fail after two or three years? It's because maybe you came in not thinking that you're going to change the world, maybe you came in because you wanted to make quick money or exit or whatever and so I think for me, it's this is my life's work and we want to bring more underrepresented communities into innovation, and so it's not something that is going to be solved easily. >> Let's get back to the Sundar event that you guys were at because I think it's a good conversation to have because one of the things that came out of the brouhaha that became that memo really was a conversation publicly. Now, it's been polarized here. There's just kind of a hate kind of mindset with it most of the time, plenty of stuff on the internet to go read through but there was actually some good conversations in the industry. What was the conversation like during the event because this was in full conversation mode while you guys were having your 2017 world pitch competition, which he presided over and had a speech to the entrepreneurs. What was it like? What were some of the conversations that were taking place? >> I think the most powerful piece of the whole evening was really the girls walking in and seeing the incredible diversity that we have in this world, right? So we had girls from and mentors and supporters from over 30 countries and just them coming and waving the flags and different faces and different cultures all trying to make the world a better place, I mean it's rare that you see that using technology and I think it's very fitting that Silicon Valley is the center of this, but I think there was not one dry eye in the group because you realize, the conversation is so much bigger than one company, one country. It is something that affects us as all human beings and you're believing in human potential so I think seeing these young girls, some of them 10 years old, there was this, I think, maybe the crowd's favorite was these 10 year old girls from Cambodia who want to improve the lives of these people working in cottage industries, right, and they created an app like say Etsy or something, but focused on Cambodian products and the courage of these little girls, I think everybody walks away feeling, okay there's hope. Even in the midst of all of this discussion. >> Yeah it creates a lightning rod in some ways and hopefully it will move on to the substantive conversations. How do you guys feel about what happened and as you take this mission forward? You guys are doing some amazing work, we'll do a whole nother segment, I think, that's on that in a minute, but given the landscape now, how do you view this and how are you talking with friends and colleagues and family members around it because I've certainly had conversations with my friends, certainly on the east coast, like no, no, that's not the way Silicon Valley is. Google actually is a very cool company, it's not exactly like what you think it is. They're very open. They support a lot of great initiatives and they're candid. And then I go on and explain, it's like a university, serene little area, have this little ecosystem, that they've kind of built a university culture, if you will. But it is open and there's things that happen that get misrepresented and that was my take. That's for the folks that filmed at Silicon Valley. But what's your take? What do you think about what's happening? >> So this is really, really good that you brought up the university campus environment. So I have two girls. They're both millennials and they're both in the tech world and we have this discussion and here is the perfect answer, right. So one of my daughters, Kat, she said that when she read that, she thought it was basically a gathering of his thoughts and it was a gathering of his thoughts because he was probably asked to adhere to I&D staff that's going on in every company right now, right, and so it was a little bit of a, wait a second, you know. He wants to sort of respond to his being asked to go to I&D staff and then Katia said, but you know mom, it was just a gathering of his thoughts and this is an essay, and it was a poorly written one, and if I was grading it, I would give him a C minus. Then my older daughter said-- >> Host: I would have given him an F on that one. She's generous. >> Because he did, he tried to make it very professional and very academic and she said but it was a first draft, he has not, he didn't proceed to toughen it up, solidify it, find more evidence, have it critiqued. It was just a gathering of his thoughts and he hasn't gone through the presses and both these girls graduated from Berkeley and so I think they would know what a C paper looks like versus an A paper. And then my older daughter said, and the other thing is, you know, it's not like I&D efforts are actually bad but what we're trying to do is we're trying to condense the time in which we're trying to get women at equal pairing in the tech world. Now, you know women have never been at equal pairing in many professions. They were not enough doctors, lawyers, accountants, you name it, right? Main Street, Wall Street has never had equality. And now we're looking at technology and the reason everything just flairs up in technology is because we live in today's world where news and information is available all the time. So there's two things going on. Information is readily available. People can come into the conversation very quickly and whenever anything happens in Silicon Valley, the effect is massive because all eyes are on Silicon Valley all the time. So it's a bit of a distorted view but we have gone through this. It took a long time for women to become astronauts. It took a long time for women to become neurosurgeons. It took a long time for women to become lawyers and dentists. It will take a little bit of time for women to become top technologists, but we're hoping that it'll shorten and things happen quickly in the valley and we're trying to get that quicker and so we're seeing a little bit of friction. This is responses from millennials so for me, it was like, yes. >> Host: Interesting perspective. >> Yes, great perspective, and when Sundar said these things at the world pitch, I was sitting in the second row and every time he said something I would clap real loud and Todd said, why are you being so good and I said I need to hear that, I need to hear him say that because-- >> Host: What did he say that moved you? >> Oh he just said, you know you have a place in technology and I said yes, we needed to hear you say that right away, all the time and especially to these girls, these eight to 18 year old girls, and all of the ones that come from 100 countries that weren't at Google but were listening to the live pitch. >> We seem to be going back to a crowd that wants to see respect for the individual and citizenship. These were company values at Hewlett Packard, when I was there, that I always remembered was unique. They go hey, you can have differences, but if you have respect for the individual and you have a citizenship mindset. That seemed to have been lost in tech. With this whole movement you see and win at all costs, being an asshole is what you got to do to be a CEO or flip it fast or bros program, so it became a very selfish environment. It seems to be shifting now, with this conversation. Your thoughts? >> So I have to say, doing a start up is not easy. Getting successful in this world is not easy. Shaking the status quo is not easy, so I have to say that the same people, and we're not going to name names, but the same people who are very arrogant and have little respect for the laws and rules, they have given us products that are changing peoples' lives. There is no question about it. Without their bravado, without their I don't care, I'm just going to go over you if you don't comply with me, a lot of ride sharing wouldn't even have happened, and to me, when you provide employment, when you provide alternative services, when you provide something that takes away the way things were, I see that as a plus. I think what we're seeing is that's needed to a certain extent and then you realize, okay now we have to get back to growing it and working it and if you keep going in that mode, you probably won't succeed. >> So being tough and determined and having grit is what you need to break through those walls as a start up. You don't need to be necessarily a jerk, but your point is if you're creating value. >> If you're creating value, and that sometimes you actually have to be a jerk because there are very few brave, non-jerk people who have gone against a big unions and big monopolies. Right, you and I, I would not be able to go against the taxi commission. You need somebody who is a complete a-hole to do that. And he did that and it made a difference. He doesn't have to continue to do that and that's the point. >> There's a meme going around on the internet, if you want to make friends, sell ice cream. >> Exactly! >> So you cannot always win friends when you're pioneering things. >> And you know, there is a balance and maybe we've fostered the fact that you need to be that attitude for everything and that's not true so the pendulum shifted a bit too much but I think that we shouldn't scorn them because really they have made a difference, let's just let everybody get back to-- >> Its a tough world out there to survive and you have to have that kind of sharp elbows to make things happen and it's the value you're providing is how you do it. >> Exactly. >> Well it's no secret to the folks that know me and watch The Cube and know the Silicon Valley that I'm a huge proponent for computer science and, you know, as someone who kind of fell into that in the '80s, it's now become very interesting in that the surface area for computer science has increased a lot and its not just coding and heads down and squashing bugs and writing code. There's been a whole nother evolution of Soft Scales, Agile, Cloud, you've seen a full transformation with the potential unlimited compute available, with mobile now 10 years plus into the iPhone you see new infrastructure developing so it creates the notion that, okay, you can bring the science of computers to a whole nother level. That must be attractive as you guys have that capability to bring that to bear in the programs. Can you guys comment on how you guys see just the role of computer science playing out and this is not a gender thing, this is more of, as I have a young daughter I try to say, it's not just writing code, you could certainly whip out a mobile app, but it's really bringing design to it or bringing a personal passion that you might have, so what are some of the patterns you're seeing in the surface area of what's now known as computer science? >> I think it's super important because as technology has progressed, we've been able to provide this program. If we were still programming in front of screens and doing the what you see is what you get kind of thing without, we would not be there. I think the big thing that's happened in the last 10 years is the mobile phone. I mean, if you find a girl anywhere today in the world, chances are she'll have a mobile phone on her and she's going to be loathe for you to take that one thing from her. You could take other things from her, but try taking that phone away from her. She will not let you. And so the fact that she's so attached to that mobile phone means that you can then tell her, hey, you don't have to be just a consumer of that thing, you can be a producer of that thing. Anything that you see on there, you can actually design. This is power. This is your thing to good and great and better. And if we can shift that in their minds that this is their link to the world that's wide open, we're seeing that. >> Well the world is consumed by it. I mean, a lot of women in the world will be consumers of product, certainly with AI, the conversation over the weekend I was having with folks as the role of women is super important not just in AI, but as software becomes cognitive, you have to align with half the audience that's out there. Must be hard for a guy to program something that's going to be more oriented towards women, but it brings up the question of application and whether it's self driving cars or utility from work to play and everything in between, software and the role of software is going to be critical and that seems to be pretty clear. Question is how do you inspire young girls. That's the question that a lot of fellow males that I talk to who are fathers of daughters and who are promoting women in tech and see that vision. What are some of the inspiration areas? How do you really shake the interest and how do you have someone really kind of dig in and enjoy it and taste it and feel it? >> So there is some research to back what the formula is that works to drive change in behavior and so there is, one of the biggest names in cognitive psychology is Albert Bandura. He's a professor at Stanford. But basically it's the same principles that drive, say, the addiction from alcohol or weight loss or any kind of new behavior change. So the first is you need to have exposure to someone whom you respect showing that this is something of meaning, and so the key words are someone you respect, right? And so media can play a very big role here, for scale, right, otherwise it's only maybe a teacher or a parent and if they're not exposed to technology they can't really affect your... And so media can play a huge role there. Second is the experience itself, like how do you make it easy to get started. And then it's like learning from video games, so you make it very, very easy, like the first step is just come over here, it'll be fun, there's pizza, come, right, like your friends are coming, but then the feedback has to be very fast, so the first step, and that's where your good curriculum matters. So that's where also working on a mobile phone is very appealing even though maybe apps is not-- >> Host: It's relatable. >> It's relatable but the feedback is instantaneous and so the programming language that the girls use is block based so even though you don't have any prior programming background, you can still build a working app, so that's critical. Then human beings get tired very easily and so the feedback needs to keep changing. It has to be unpredictable. The third piece is that of expectations. Sou have to have very high expectations and so that's why this current discussion around cognitive differences in gender, I feel is missing the point, because it's not what you're born with, what are you capable of? And so if we looked at our genetics, we would never go to space, we would never go to the deepest parts of the ocean, because we're not meant for that. But we had really high visions and expectations and so human beings rose to that. And then the last piece is less relevant in developing countries but it's still important, so it's sort of the human energy. We're not a brain disassociated from the body, we're connected, right? And so if you're hungry and tired and sleepy, not the right time to sort of make a dramatic change in you interests, so this is relevant like for us, we tried to figure out which countries are we going to work in, so post-conflict, war-torn areas are not the best areas to start a new program in. You need the right-- >> So you're saying the biological argument of, of course they're different, men and women, but it's the capability, that's where people are missing the boat. >> And the support system. So have high expectations, provide them with the right support, but the most important thing is your own beliefs in that. >> Let's get your thoughts on that 'cause I think you guys have a great program with Technovation, you mentioned mentors. Key part of the formula most likely. What we here, in the conversation I've had with women here has been, there's a real call to arms at the executive level now, folks my age in the 50s who made it, who were there, succeeding, they really want to give back and they really have recognized the value of having that peer mentorship and then inspiring the young generation, whether it's part of the things that we cover like Grace Hopper or Technovations, things that you do, or even just mentoring in their own communities. What does that mentorship look like that you guys see that you'd like to see double down on or areas you'd like to see tweaked or perceptions that need to change? What's your thoughts on mentorship and the role of inspiring young girls? >> Mentorship from men? >> Host: Men and women, I mean... >> From both? >> Well I see the mentorship with women, as that's the first step. I have a whole nother conversation, in my opinion, about the men needing training, not just like go to class and learn how to talk but how to empathize. >> Well my big thing has been that when you wanted to encourage women up the ladder in your companies or you wanted to encourage women to actually get in to technical roles, that intent should not be placed in the CSR department of your organization 'cause that speaks volumes, right? To say oh, well that's in the social responsibility department or the HR, that just says, okay, so you're not really, you don't think we're capable of helping you with your product or service, we're sort of part of this, and it's like, no. So I think you want to mainstream it, which is what a lot of I&D things are trying to do now. >> Host: Inclusion and diversity. >> Inclusion and diversity. >> To make it part of the fabric, not a department checkbox. >> Exactly. >> That's what you're getting at. >> Exactly and the involvement of these departments, to include everybody and to make it more diverse is going to be not frictionless. It will be friction until a time where it won't even be necessary. I&D departments should have one goal which is to work themselves out of a job. If they can work themselves out of a job, then the company would have done what it needs to be done, but I think-- >> Meaning it's self sufficient, it's self governing, people are humans, it's respect for individuals. I mean this just basically comes down to, if you look at it as humans, it takes it, every conversation could be tabled, that's what? There's a person on the other side, it's a human being, not a woman or a white male or whatever. They're not there yet, but I mean certainly that would be the endgame, so in that scenario, that department's out of business, the I&R, the inclusion and diversity department, has done its job. >> Exactly, you don't need one because you know you're okay. And I think capabilities is really important in corporations and this isn't anybody's fault, this is just how it's been done. This has just been the culture of it. Who gets invited to which meetings. Who gets invited to which conferences. And so we heard the CEO of YouTube, Susan Wojcicki saying, you know, she had to sort of elbow a little bit to say hey, why am I not allowed at a certain conference and it's like, maybe just wake up to that and say why aren't you involving more people at conferences and think tanks because, you know, I come from an oil and gas background and people used to do a lot of deals on the golf course 'cause oil and gas people play golf a lot and a lot of deals used to happen, well in the Valley we don't play golf a lot but we do do other things, conferences or get togethers, and if you don't include the people in your team as groups or representationally, well they're not going to be there when you make these decisions so maybe just be a little bit-- >> Exclusionary is a problem and Kleiner Perkins was taken to task, they had ski trips apparently planned and they did all mostly guys and they didn't invite the women part, there was a big scandal. This is where they make that, it's a normative thing and they've got to change the norms. >> Change the norms and if you actually want your company which is made of all kinds of people to move really far ahead, don't be like that. Include everybody because the only goodness about that is you'll go forward. If you don't include somebody, well you're going to hurt them. >> I want to add to that. So there's quite a bit of data. So the patterns are not anything different from what the message girls get from school and parents. So if you look at the data there are 100 countries that legally discriminate against women and so what message industry is telling, is really, firstly it doesn't filter through to the larger population. Silicon Valley is a completely different problem, but overall, the messages girls are given is like, this is not for you, and so especially in some of the most populous, dense countries of the world. And so we have to fight a lot of these kinds of perceptions from the ground up and the number one gatekeeper is the father and so a key part of what we've now done to date is to provide education and training to the parents because there's a very moving story that we work in a remote town in south India and a mentor who's very dedicated has been trying to get these girls to participate in Technovation. He did that and then one girl was actually offered a job but the father kept saying no, not needed, no girl in my family ever needs to work, but he fought it and so the girl actually gets a job. And then a year later, the father calls the mentor and said, you know what, I'm so grateful that you did it because a day after she got the job, I got hit in an accident and I lost my job, but it's these kinds of perceptions that have to be changed one person at a time which is what makes this very hard, unless you actually are able to get the media to change the messaging and I think in the U.S., which is, there's some very interesting studies and a question, right, like if you were to think, would there be more women in STEM in poorer, developing countries versus richer, highly developed countries. Where would you see more women in STEM? The answer is actually the women in the poorer countries like Iran, Malaysia. The reason is because in an individualistic society like in the U.S., where there's a lot of emphasis on materialistic but it's also about are you happy. The conversation has changed from parents telling children and do what makes you happy and then you are very prone to advertising and advertising works when it's highly targeted and highly gendered. And so in the 60s, there was no such thing as pink and blue. Now there is pink and blue. And so now we just made our entire society entirely susceptible to advertising. And girls are passive and complaint and boys are aggressive and so then when you're looking at the board structures, it's very, very hard to fix the problem right there. You have to go down deeper because you don't get leaders who are complaint. Maybe secretaries are compliant. But you have to fix the message that teachers give girls, that parents give their baby girls when they are born, and so industry is just sort of in the spotlight right now but the issue is not that of industry, I think it's also that of society. >> Industry, if you look at what Sundar is supporting you guys it's interesting that this industry seems to chipping and certainly Silicon Valley is a little different as you said, but in general, it is a cultural parent thing. Any plans there with Technovations to have a parent track? >> Yes, totally. I mean, I think, right now, 10% of parents actually volunteer to be mentors, kind of like girl scout troop leaders, and so we are trying to figure out, okay, what is a way to involve parents and to make them part of the discussion? >> Tara, Anar, thanks so much. This is The Cube conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.