(mellow music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Startup Showcase. This is the closing panel session on AI machine learning, the top startups generating generative AI on AWS. It's a great panel. This is going to be the experts talking about riding the wave in generative AI. We got Ankur Mehrotra, who's the director and general manager of AI and machine learning at AWS, and Clem Delangue, co-founder and CEO of Hugging Face, and Ori Goshen, who's the co-founder and CEO of AI21 Labs. Ori from Tel Aviv dialing in, and rest coming in here on theCUBE. Appreciate you coming on for this closing session for the Startup Showcase. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> I'm super excited to have you all on. Hugging Face was recently in the news with the AWS relationship, so congratulations. Open source, open science, really driving the machine learning. And we got the AI21 Labs access to the LLMs, generating huge scale live applications, commercial applications, coming to the market, all powered by AWS. So everyone, congratulations on all your success, and thank you for headlining this panel. Let's get right into it. AWS is powering this wave here. We're seeing a lot of push here from applications. Ankur, set the table for us on the AI machine learning. It's not new, it's been goin' on for a while. Past three years have been significant advancements, but there's been a lot of work done in AI machine learning. Now it's released to the public. Everybody's super excited and now says, "Oh, the future's here!" It's kind of been going on for a while and baking. Now it's kind of coming out. What's your view here? Let's get it started. >> Yes, thank you. So, yeah, as you may be aware, Amazon has been in investing in machine learning research and development since quite some time now. And we've used machine learning to innovate and improve user experiences across different Amazon products, whether it's Alexa or Amazon.com. But we've also brought in our expertise to extend what we are doing in the space and add more generative AI technology to our AWS products and services, starting with CodeWhisperer, which is an AWS service that we announced a few months ago, which is, you can think of it as a coding companion as a service, which uses generative AI models underneath. And so this is a service that customers who have no machine learning expertise can just use. And we also are talking to customers, and we see a lot of excitement about generative AI, and customers who want to build these models themselves, who have the talent and the expertise and resources. For them, AWS has a number of different options and capabilities they can leverage, such as our custom silicon, such as Trainium and Inferentia, as well as distributed machine learning capabilities that we offer as part of SageMaker, which is an end-to-end machine learning development service. At the same time, many of our customers tell us that they're interested in not training and building these generative AI models from scratch, given they can be expensive and can require specialized talent and skills to build. And so for those customers, we are also making it super easy to bring in existing generative AI models into their machine learning development environment within SageMaker for them to use. So we recently announced our partnership with Hugging Face, where we are making it super easy for customers to bring in those models into their SageMaker development environment for fine tuning and deployment. And then we are also partnering with other proprietary model providers such as AI21 and others, where we making these generative AI models available within SageMaker for our customers to use. So our approach here is to really provide customers options and choices and help them accelerate their generative AI journey. >> Ankur, thank you for setting the table there. Clem and Ori, I want to get your take, because the riding the waves, the theme of this session, and to me being in California, I imagine the big surf, the big waves, the big talent out there. This is like alpha geeks, alpha coders, developers are really leaning into this. You're seeing massive uptake from the smartest people. Whether they're young or around, they're coming in with their kind of surfboards, (chuckles) if you will. These early adopters, they've been on this for a while; Now the waves are hitting. This is a big wave, everyone sees it. What are some of those early adopter devs doing? What are some of the use cases you're seeing right out of the gate? And what does this mean for the folks that are going to come in and get on this wave? Can you guys share your perspective on this? Because you're seeing the best talent now leaning into this. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from Hugging Face vantage points, it's not even a a wave, it's a tidal wave, or maybe even the tide itself. Because actually what we are seeing is that AI and machine learning is not something that you add to your products. It's very much a new paradigm to do all technology. It's this idea that we had in the past 15, 20 years, one way to build software and to build technology, which was writing a million lines of code, very rule-based, and then you get your product. Now what we are seeing is that every single product, every single feature, every single company is starting to adopt AI to build the next generation of technology. And that works both to make the existing use cases better, if you think of search, if you think of social network, if you think of SaaS, but also it's creating completely new capabilities that weren't possible with the previous paradigm. Now AI can generate text, it can generate image, it can describe your image, it can do so many new things that weren't possible before. >> It's going to really make the developers really productive, right? I mean, you're seeing the developer uptake strong, right? >> Yes, we have over 15,000 companies using Hugging Face now, and it keeps accelerating. I really think that maybe in like three, five years, there's not going to be any company not using AI. It's going to be really kind of the default to build all technology. >> Ori, weigh in on this. APIs, the cloud. Now I'm a developer, I want to have live applications, I want the commercial applications on this. What's your take? Weigh in here. >> Yeah, first, I absolutely agree. I mean, we're in the midst of a technology shift here. I think not a lot of people realize how big this is going to be. Just the number of possibilities is endless, and I think hard to imagine. And I don't think it's just the use cases. I think we can think of it as two separate categories. We'll see companies and products enhancing their offerings with these new AI capabilities, but we'll also see new companies that are AI first, that kind of reimagine certain experiences. They build something that wasn't possible before. And that's why I think it's actually extremely exciting times. And maybe more philosophically, I think now these large language models and large transformer based models are helping us people to express our thoughts and kind of making the bridge from our thinking to a creative digital asset in a speed we've never imagined before. I can write something down and get a piece of text, or an image, or a code. So I'll start by saying it's hard to imagine all the possibilities right now, but it's certainly big. And if I had to bet, I would say it's probably at least as big as the mobile revolution we've seen in the last 20 years. >> Yeah, this is the biggest. I mean, it's been compared to the Enlightenment Age. I saw the Wall Street Journal had a recent story on this. We've been saying that this is probably going to be bigger than all inflection points combined in the tech industry, given what transformation is coming. I guess I want to ask you guys, on the early adopters, we've been hearing on these interviews and throughout the industry that there's already a set of big companies, a set of companies out there that have a lot of data and they're already there, they're kind of tinkering. Kind of reminds me of the old hyper scaler days where they were building their own scale, and they're eatin' glass, spittin' nails out, you know, they're hardcore. Then you got everybody else kind of saying board level, "Hey team, how do I leverage this?" How do you see those two things coming together? You got the fast followers coming in behind the early adopters. What's it like for the second wave coming in? What are those conversations for those developers like? >> I mean, I think for me, the important switch for companies is to change their mindset from being kind of like a traditional software company to being an AI or machine learning company. And that means investing, hiring machine learning engineers, machine learning scientists, infrastructure in members who are working on how to put these models in production, team members who are able to optimize models, specialized models, customized models for the company's specific use cases. So it's really changing this mindset of how you build technology and optimize your company building around that. Things are moving so fast that I think now it's kind of like too late for low hanging fruits or small, small adjustments. I think it's important to realize that if you want to be good at that, and if you really want to surf this wave, you need massive investments. If there are like some surfers listening with this analogy of the wave, right, when there are waves, it's not enough just to stand and make a little bit of adjustments. You need to position yourself aggressively, paddle like crazy, and that's how you get into the waves. So that's what companies, in my opinion, need to do right now. >> Ori, what's your take on the generative models out there? We hear a lot about foundation models. What's your experience running end-to-end applications for large foundation models? Any insights you can share with the app developers out there who are looking to get in? >> Yeah, I think first of all, it's start create an economy, where it probably doesn't make sense for every company to create their own foundation models. You can basically start by using an existing foundation model, either open source or a proprietary one, and start deploying it for your needs. And then comes the second round when you are starting the optimization process. You bootstrap, whether it's a demo, or a small feature, or introducing new capability within your product, and then start collecting data. That data, and particularly the human feedback data, helps you to constantly improve the model, so you create this data flywheel. And I think we're now entering an era where customers have a lot of different choice of how they want to start their generative AI endeavor. And it's a good thing that there's a variety of choices. And the really amazing thing here is that every industry, any company you speak with, it could be something very traditional like industrial or financial, medical, really any company. I think peoples now start to imagine what are the possibilities, and seriously think what's their strategy for adopting this generative AI technology. And I think in that sense, the foundation model actually enabled this to become scalable. So the barrier to entry became lower; Now the adoption could actually accelerate. >> There's a lot of integration aspects here in this new wave that's a little bit different. Before it was like very monolithic, hardcore, very brittle. A lot more integration, you see a lot more data coming together. I have to ask you guys, as developers come in and grow, I mean, when I went to college and you were a software engineer, I mean, I got a degree in computer science, and software engineering, that's all you did was code, (chuckles) you coded. Now, isn't it like everyone's a machine learning engineer at this point? Because that will be ultimately the science. So, (chuckles) you got open source, you got open software, you got the communities. Swami called you guys the GitHub of machine learning, Hugging Face is the GitHub of machine learning, mainly because that's where people are going to code. So this is essentially, machine learning is computer science. What's your reaction to that? >> Yes, my co-founder Julien at Hugging Face have been having this thing for quite a while now, for over three years, which was saying that actually software engineering as we know it today is a subset of machine learning, instead of the other way around. People would call us crazy a few years ago when we're seeing that. But now we are realizing that you can actually code with machine learning. So machine learning is generating code. And we are starting to see that every software engineer can leverage machine learning through open models, through APIs, through different technology stack. So yeah, it's not crazy anymore to think that maybe in a few years, there's going to be more people doing AI and machine learning. However you call it, right? Maybe you'll still call them software engineers, maybe you'll call them machine learning engineers. But there might be more of these people in a couple of years than there is software engineers today. >> I bring this up as more tongue in cheek as well, because Ankur, infrastructure's co is what made Cloud great, right? That's kind of the DevOps movement. But here the shift is so massive, there will be a game-changing philosophy around coding. Machine learning as code, you're starting to see CodeWhisperer, you guys have had coding companions for a while on AWS. So this is a paradigm shift. How is the cloud playing into this for you guys? Because to me, I've been riffing on some interviews where it's like, okay, you got the cloud going next level. This is an example of that, where there is a DevOps-like moment happening with machine learning, whether you call it coding or whatever. It's writing code on its own. Can you guys comment on what this means on top of the cloud? What comes out of the scale? What comes out of the benefit here? >> Absolutely, so- >> Well first- >> Oh, go ahead. >> Yeah, so I think as far as scale is concerned, I think customers are really relying on cloud to make sure that the applications that they build can scale along with the needs of their business. But there's another aspect to it, which is that until a few years ago, John, what we saw was that machine learning was a data scientist heavy activity. They were data scientists who were taking the data and training models. And then as machine learning found its way more and more into production and actual usage, we saw the MLOps become a thing, and MLOps engineers become more involved into the process. And then we now are seeing, as machine learning is being used to solve more business critical problems, we're seeing even legal and compliance teams get involved. We are seeing business stakeholders more engaged. So, more and more machine learning is becoming an activity that's not just performed by data scientists, but is performed by a team and a group of people with different skills. And for them, we as AWS are focused on providing the best tools and services for these different personas to be able to do their job and really complete that end-to-end machine learning story. So that's where, whether it's tools related to MLOps or even for folks who cannot code or don't know any machine learning. For example, we launched SageMaker Canvas as a tool last year, which is a UI-based tool which data analysts and business analysts can use to build machine learning models. So overall, the spectrum in terms of persona and who can get involved in the machine learning process is expanding, and the cloud is playing a big role in that process. >> Ori, Clem, can you guys weigh in too? 'Cause this is just another abstraction layer of scale. What's it mean for you guys as you look forward to your customers and the use cases that you're enabling? >> Yes, I think what's important is that the AI companies and providers and the cloud kind of work together. That's how you make a seamless experience and you actually reduce the barrier to entry for this technology. So that's what we've been super happy to do with AWS for the past few years. We actually announced not too long ago that we are doubling down on our partnership with AWS. We're excited to have many, many customers on our shared product, the Hugging Face deep learning container on SageMaker. And we are working really closely with the Inferentia team and the Trainium team to release some more exciting stuff in the coming weeks and coming months. So I think when you have an ecosystem and a system where the AWS and the AI providers, AI startups can work hand in hand, it's to the benefit of the customers and the companies, because it makes it orders of magnitude easier for them to adopt this new paradigm to build technology AI. >> Ori, this is a scale on reasoning too. The data's out there and making sense out of it, making it reason, getting comprehension, having it make decisions is next, isn't it? And you need scale for that. >> Yes. Just a comment about the infrastructure side. So I think really the purpose is to streamline and make these technologies much more accessible. And I think we'll see, I predict that we'll see in the next few years more and more tooling that make this technology much more simple to consume. And I think it plays a very important role. There's so many aspects, like the monitoring the models and their kind of outputs they produce, and kind of containing and running them in a production environment. There's so much there to build on, the infrastructure side will play a very significant role. >> All right, that's awesome stuff. I'd love to change gears a little bit and get a little philosophy here around AI and how it's going to transform, if you guys don't mind. There's been a lot of conversations around, on theCUBE here as well as in some industry areas, where it's like, okay, all the heavy lifting is automated away with machine learning and AI, the complexity, there's some efficiencies, it's horizontal and scalable across all industries. Ankur, good point there. Everyone's going to use it for something. And a lot of stuff gets brought to the table with large language models and other things. But the key ingredient will be proprietary data or human input, or some sort of AI whisperer kind of role, or prompt engineering, people are saying. So with that being said, some are saying it's automating intelligence. And that creativity will be unleashed from this. If the heavy lifting goes away and AI can fill the void, that shifts the value to the intellect or the input. And so that means data's got to come together, interact, fuse, and understand each other. This is kind of new. I mean, old school AI was, okay, got a big model, I provisioned it long time, very expensive. Now it's all free flowing. Can you guys comment on where you see this going with this freeform, data flowing everywhere, heavy lifting, and then specialization? >> Yeah, I think- >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, I think, so what we are seeing with these large language models or generative models is that they're really good at creating stuff. But I think it's also important to recognize their limitations. They're not as good at reasoning and logic. And I think now we're seeing great enthusiasm, I think, which is justified. And the next phase would be how to make these systems more reliable. How to inject more reasoning capabilities into these models, or augment with other mechanisms that actually perform more reasoning so we can achieve more reliable results. And we can count on these models to perform for critical tasks, whether it's medical tasks, legal tasks. We really want to kind of offload a lot of the intelligence to these systems. And then we'll have to get back, we'll have to make sure these are reliable, we'll have to make sure we get some sort of explainability that we can understand the process behind the generated results that we received. So I think this is kind of the next phase of systems that are based on these generated models. >> Clem, what's your view on this? Obviously you're at open community, open source has been around, it's been a great track record, proven model. I'm assuming creativity's going to come out of the woodwork, and if we can automate open source contribution, and relationships, and onboarding more developers, there's going to be unleashing of creativity. >> Yes, it's been so exciting on the open source front. We all know Bert, Bloom, GPT-J, T5, Stable Diffusion, that work up. The previous or the current generation of open source models that are on Hugging Face. It has been accelerating in the past few months. So I'm super excited about ControlNet right now that is really having a lot of impact, which is kind of like a way to control the generation of images. Super excited about Flan UL2, which is like a new model that has been recently released and is open source. So yeah, it's really fun to see the ecosystem coming together. Open source has been the basis for traditional software, with like open source programming languages, of course, but also all the great open source that we've gotten over the years. So we're happy to see that the same thing is happening for machine learning and AI, and hopefully can help a lot of companies reduce a little bit the barrier to entry. So yeah, it's going to be exciting to see how it evolves in the next few years in that respect. >> I think the developer productivity angle that's been talked about a lot in the industry will be accelerated significantly. I think security will be enhanced by this. I think in general, applications are going to transform at a radical rate, accelerated, incredible rate. So I think it's not a big wave, it's the water, right? I mean, (chuckles) it's the new thing. My final question for you guys, if you don't mind, I'd love to get each of you to answer the question I'm going to ask you, which is, a lot of conversations around data. Data infrastructure's obviously involved in this. And the common thread that I'm hearing is that every company that looks at this is asking themselves, if we don't rebuild our company, start thinking about rebuilding our business model around AI, we might be dinosaurs, we might be extinct. And it reminds me that scene in Moneyball when, at the end, it's like, if we're not building the model around your model, every company will be out of business. What's your advice to companies out there that are having those kind of moments where it's like, okay, this is real, this is next gen, this is happening. I better start thinking and putting into motion plans to refactor my business, 'cause it's happening, business transformation is happening on the cloud. This kind of puts an exclamation point on, with the AI, as a next step function. Big increase in value. So it's an opportunity for leaders. Ankur, we'll start with you. What's your advice for folks out there thinking about this? Do they put their toe in the water? Do they jump right into the deep end? What's your advice? >> Yeah, John, so we talk to a lot of customers, and customers are excited about what's happening in the space, but they often ask us like, "Hey, where do we start?" So we always advise our customers to do a lot of proof of concepts, understand where they can drive the biggest ROI. And then also leverage existing tools and services to move fast and scale, and try and not reinvent the wheel where it doesn't need to be. That's basically our advice to customers. >> Get it. Ori, what's your advice to folks who are scratching their head going, "I better jump in here. "How do I get started?" What's your advice? >> So I actually think that need to think about it really economically. Both on the opportunity side and the challenges. So there's a lot of opportunities for many companies to actually gain revenue upside by building these new generative features and capabilities. On the other hand, of course, this would probably affect the cogs, and incorporating these capabilities could probably affect the cogs. So I think we really need to think carefully about both of these sides, and also understand clearly if this is a project or an F word towards cost reduction, then the ROI is pretty clear, or revenue amplifier, where there's, again, a lot of different opportunities. So I think once you think about this in a structured way, I think, and map the different initiatives, then it's probably a good way to start and a good way to start thinking about these endeavors. >> Awesome. Clem, what's your take on this? What's your advice, folks out there? >> Yes, all of these are very good advice already. Something that you said before, John, that I disagreed a little bit, a lot of people are talking about the data mode and proprietary data. Actually, when you look at some of the organizations that have been building the best models, they don't have specialized or unique access to data. So I'm not sure that's so important today. I think what's important for companies, and it's been the same for the previous generation of technology, is their ability to build better technology faster than others. And in this new paradigm, that means being able to build machine learning faster than others, and better. So that's how, in my opinion, you should approach this. And kind of like how can you evolve your company, your teams, your products, so that you are able in the long run to build machine learning better and faster than your competitors. And if you manage to put yourself in that situation, then that's when you'll be able to differentiate yourself to really kind of be impactful and get results. That's really hard to do. It's something really different, because machine learning and AI is a different paradigm than traditional software. So this is going to be challenging, but I think if you manage to nail that, then the future is going to be very interesting for your company. >> That's a great point. Thanks for calling that out. I think this all reminds me of the cloud days early on. If you went to the cloud early, you took advantage of it when the pandemic hit. If you weren't native in the cloud, you got hamstrung by that, you were flatfooted. So just get in there. (laughs) Get in the cloud, get into AI, you're going to be good. Thanks for for calling that. Final parting comments, what's your most exciting thing going on right now for you guys? Ori, Clem, what's the most exciting thing on your plate right now that you'd like to share with folks? >> I mean, for me it's just the diversity of use cases and really creative ways of companies leveraging this technology. Every day I speak with about two, three customers, and I'm continuously being surprised by the creative ideas. And the future is really exciting of what can be achieved here. And also I'm amazed by the pace that things move in this industry. It's just, there's not at dull moment. So, definitely exciting times. >> Clem, what are you most excited about right now? >> For me, it's all the new open source models that have been released in the past few weeks, and that they'll keep being released in the next few weeks. I'm also super excited about more and more companies getting into this capability of chaining different models and different APIs. I think that's a very, very interesting development, because it creates new capabilities, new possibilities, new functionalities that weren't possible before. You can plug an API with an open source embedding model, with like a no-geo transcription model. So that's also very exciting. This capability of having more interoperable machine learning will also, I think, open a lot of interesting things in the future. >> Clem, congratulations on your success at Hugging Face. Please pass that on to your team. Ori, congratulations on your success, and continue to, just day one. I mean, it's just the beginning. It's not even scratching the service. Ankur, I'll give you the last word. What are you excited for at AWS? More cloud goodness coming here with AI. Give you the final word. >> Yeah, so as both Clem and Ori said, I think the research in the space is moving really, really fast, so we are excited about that. But we are also excited to see the speed at which enterprises and other AWS customers are applying machine learning to solve real business problems, and the kind of results they're seeing. So when they come back to us and tell us the kind of improvement in their business metrics and overall customer experience that they're driving and they're seeing real business results, that's what keeps us going and inspires us to continue inventing on their behalf. >> Gentlemen, thank you so much for this awesome high impact panel. Ankur, Clem, Ori, congratulations on all your success. We'll see you around. Thanks for coming on. Generative AI, riding the wave, it's a tidal wave, it's the water, it's all happening. All great stuff. This is season three, episode one of AWS Startup Showcase closing panel. This is the AI ML episode, the top startups building generative AI on AWS. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (mellow music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase AI Machine Learning Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS. This is season 3, episode 1 of the ongoing series covering the exciting startup from the AWS ecosystem to talk about AI and machine learning. I'm your host, John Furrier. I'm joined by two great guests here, Adam Wenchel, who's the CEO of Arthur, and Chief Scientist of Arthur, John Dickerson. Talk about how they help people build better LLM AI systems to get them into the market faster. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us, John. >> Well, I got to say I got to temper my enthusiasm because the last few months explosion of interest in LLMs with ChatGPT, has opened the eyes to everybody around the reality of that this is going next gen, this is it, this is the moment, this is the the point we're going to look back and say, this is the time where AI really hit the scene for real applications. So, a lot of Large Language Models, also known as LLMs, foundational models, and generative AI is all booming. This is where all the alpha developers are going. This is where everyone's focusing their business model transformations on. This is where developers are seeing action. So it's all happening, the wave is here. So I got to ask you guys, what are you guys seeing right now? You're in the middle of it, it's hitting you guys right on. You're in the front end of this massive wave. >> Yeah, John, I don't think you have to temper your enthusiasm at all. I mean, what we're seeing every single day is, everything from existing enterprise customers coming in with new ways that they're rethinking, like business things that they've been doing for many years that they can now do an entirely different way, as well as all manner of new companies popping up, applying LLMs to everything from generating code and SQL statements to generating health transcripts and just legal briefs. Everything you can imagine. And when you actually sit down and look at these systems and the demos we get of them, the hype is definitely justified. It's pretty amazing what they're going to do. And even just internally, we built, about a month ago in January, we built an Arthur chatbot so customers could ask questions, technical questions from our, rather than read our product documentation, they could just ask this LLM a particular question and get an answer. And at the time it was like state of the art, but then just last week we decided to rebuild it because the tooling has changed so much that we, last week, we've completely rebuilt it. It's now way better, built on an entirely different stack. And the tooling has undergone a full generation worth of change in six weeks, which is crazy. So it just tells you how much energy is going into this and how fast it's evolving right now. >> John, weigh in as a chief scientist. I mean, you must be blown away. Talk about kid in the candy store. I mean, you must be looking like this saying, I mean, she must be super busy to begin with, but the change, the acceleration, can you scope the kind of change you're seeing and be specific around the areas you're seeing movement and highly accelerated change? >> Yeah, definitely. And it is very, very exciting actually, thinking back to when ChatGPT was announced, that was a night our company was throwing an event at NeurIPS, which is maybe the biggest machine learning conference out there. And the hype when that happened was palatable and it was just shocking to see how well that performed. And then obviously over the last few months since then, as LLMs have continued to enter the market, we've seen use cases for them, like Adam mentioned all over the place. And so, some things I'm excited about in this space are the use of LLMs and more generally, foundation models to redesign traditional operations, research style problems, logistics problems, like auctions, decisioning problems. So moving beyond the already amazing news cases, like creating marketing content into more core integration and a lot of the bread and butter companies and tasks that drive the American ecosystem. And I think we're just starting to see some of that. And in the next 12 months, I think we're going to see a lot more. If I had to make other predictions, I think we're going to continue seeing a lot of work being done on managing like inference time costs via shrinking models or distillation. And I don't know how to make this prediction, but at some point we're going to be seeing lots of these very large scale models operating on the edge as well. So the time scales are extremely compressed, like Adam mentioned, 12 months from now, hard to say. >> We were talking on theCUBE prior to this session here. We had theCUBE conversation here and then the Wall Street Journal just picked up on the same theme, which is the printing press moment created the enlightenment stage of the history. Here we're in the whole nother automating intellect efficiency, doing heavy lifting, the creative class coming back, a whole nother level of reality around the corner that's being hyped up. The question is, is this justified? Is there really a breakthrough here or is this just another result of continued progress with AI? Can you guys weigh in, because there's two schools of thought. There's the, "Oh my God, we're entering a new enlightenment tech phase, of the equivalent of the printing press in all areas. Then there's, Ah, it's just AI (indistinct) inch by inch. What's your guys' opinion? >> Yeah, I think on the one hand when you're down in the weeds of building AI systems all day, every day, like we are, it's easy to look at this as an incremental progress. Like we have customers who've been building on foundation models since we started the company four years ago, particular in computer vision for classification tasks, starting with pre-trained models, things like that. So that part of it doesn't feel real new, but what does feel new is just when you apply these things to language with all the breakthroughs and computational efficiency, algorithmic improvements, things like that, when you actually sit down and interact with ChatGPT or one of the other systems that's out there that's building on top of LLMs, it really is breathtaking, like, the level of understanding that they have and how quickly you can accelerate your development efforts and get an actual working system in place that solves a really important real world problem and makes people way faster, way more efficient. So I do think there's definitely something there. It's more than just incremental improvement. This feels like a real trajectory inflection point for the adoption of AI. >> John, what's your take on this? As people come into the field, I'm seeing a lot of people move from, hey, I've been coding in Python, I've been doing some development, I've been a software engineer, I'm a computer science student. I'm coding in C++ old school, OG systems person. Where do they come in? Where's the focus, where's the action? Where are the breakthroughs? Where are people jumping in and rolling up their sleeves and getting dirty with this stuff? >> Yeah, all over the place. And it's funny you mentioned students in a different life. I wore a university professor hat and so I'm very, very familiar with the teaching aspects of this. And I will say toward Adam's point, this really is a leap forward in that techniques like in a co-pilot for example, everybody's using them right now and they really do accelerate the way that we develop. When I think about the areas where people are really, really focusing right now, tooling is certainly one of them. Like you and I were chatting about LangChain right before this interview started, two or three people can sit down and create an amazing set of pipes that connect different aspects of the LLM ecosystem. Two, I would say is in engineering. So like distributed training might be one, or just understanding better ways to even be able to train large models, understanding better ways to then distill them or run them. So like this heavy interaction now between engineering and what I might call traditional machine learning from 10 years ago where you had to know a lot of math, you had to know calculus very well, things like that. Now you also need to be, again, a very strong engineer, which is exciting. >> I interviewed Swami when he talked about the news. He's ahead of Amazon's machine learning and AI when they announced Hugging Face announcement. And I reminded him how Amazon was easy to get into if you were developing a startup back in 2007,8, and that the language models had that similar problem. It's step up a lot of content and a lot of expense to get provisioned up, now it's easy. So this is the next wave of innovation. So how do you guys see that from where we are right now? Are we at that point where it's that moment where it's that cloud-like experience for LLMs and large language models? >> Yeah, go ahead John. >> I think the answer is yes. We see a number of large companies that are training these and serving these, some of which are being co-interviewed in this episode. I think we're at that. Like, you can hit one of these with a simple, single line of Python, hitting an API, you can boot this up in seconds if you want. It's easy. >> Got it. >> So I (audio cuts out). >> Well let's take a step back and talk about the company. You guys being featured here on the Showcase. Arthur, what drove you to start the company? How'd this all come together? What's the origination story? Obviously you got a big customers, how'd get started? What are you guys doing? How do you make money? Give a quick overview. >> Yeah, I think John and I come at it from slightly different angles, but for myself, I have been a part of a number of technology companies. I joined Capital One, they acquired my last company and shortly after I joined, they asked me to start their AI team. And so even though I've been doing AI for a long time, I started my career back in DARPA. It was the first time I was really working at scale in AI at an organization where there were hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue at stake with the operation of these models and that they were impacting millions of people's financial livelihoods. And so it just got me hyper-focused on these issues around making sure that your AI worked well and it worked well for your company and it worked well for the people who were being affected by it. At the time when I was doing this 2016, 2017, 2018, there just wasn't any tooling out there to support this production management model monitoring life phase of the life cycle. And so we basically left to start the company that I wanted. And John has a his own story. I'll let let you share that one, John. >> Go ahead John, you're up. >> Yeah, so I'm coming at this from a different world. So I'm on leave now from a tenured role in academia where I was leading a large lab focusing on the intersection of machine learning and economics. And so questions like fairness or the response to the dynamism on the underlying environment have been around for quite a long time in that space. And so I've been thinking very deeply about some of those more like R and D style questions as well as having deployed some automation code across a couple of different industries, some in online advertising, some in the healthcare space and so on, where concerns of, again, fairness come to bear. And so Adam and I connected to understand the space of what that might look like in the 2018 20 19 realm from a quantitative and from a human-centered point of view. And so booted things up from there. >> Yeah, bring that applied engineering R and D into the Capital One, DNA that he had at scale. I could see that fit. I got to ask you now, next step, as you guys move out and think about LLMs and the recent AI news around the generative models and the foundational models like ChatGPT, how should we be looking at that news and everyone watching might be thinking the same thing. I know at the board level companies like, we should refactor our business, this is the future. It's that kind of moment, and the tech team's like, okay, boss, how do we do this again? Or are they prepared? How should we be thinking? How should people watching be thinking about LLMs? >> Yeah, I think they really are transformative. And so, I mean, we're seeing companies all over the place. Everything from large tech companies to a lot of our large enterprise customers are launching significant projects at core parts of their business. And so, yeah, I would be surprised, if you're serious about becoming an AI native company, which most leading companies are, then this is a trend that you need to be taking seriously. And we're seeing the adoption rate. It's funny, I would say the AI adoption in the broader business world really started, let's call it four or five years ago, and it was a relatively slow adoption rate, but I think all that kind of investment in and scaling the maturity curve has paid off because the rate at which people are adopting and deploying systems based on this is tremendous. I mean, this has all just happened in the few months and we're already seeing people get systems into production. So, now there's a lot of things you have to guarantee in order to put these in production in a way that basically is added into your business and doesn't cause more headaches than it solves. And so that's where we help customers is where how do you put these out there in a way that they're going to represent your company well, they're going to perform well, they're going to do their job and do it properly. >> So in the use case, as a customer, as I think about this, there's workflows. They might have had an ML AI ops team that's around IT. Their inference engines are out there. They probably don't have a visibility on say how much it costs, they're kicking the tires. When you look at the deployment, there's a cost piece, there's a workflow piece, there's fairness you mentioned John, what should be, I should be thinking about if I'm going to be deploying stuff into production, I got to think about those things. What's your opinion? >> Yeah, I'm happy to dive in on that one. So monitoring in general is extremely important once you have one of these LLMs in production, and there have been some changes versus traditional monitoring that we can dive deeper into that LLMs are really accelerated. But a lot of that bread and butter style of things you should be looking out for remain just as important as they are for what you might call traditional machine learning models. So the underlying environment of data streams, the way users interact with these models, these are all changing over time. And so any performance metrics that you care about, traditional ones like an accuracy, if you can define that for an LLM, ones around, for example, fairness or bias. If that is a concern for your particular use case and so on. Those need to be tracked. Now there are some interesting changes that LLMs are bringing along as well. So most ML models in production that we see are relatively static in the sense that they're not getting flipped in more than maybe once a day or once a week or they're just set once and then not changed ever again. With LLMs, there's this ongoing value alignment or collection of preferences from users that is often constantly updating the model. And so that opens up all sorts of vectors for, I won't say attack, but for problems to arise in production. Like users might learn to use your system in a different way and thus change the way those preferences are getting collected and thus change your system in ways that you never intended. So maybe that went through governance already internally at the company and now it's totally, totally changed and it's through no fault of your own, but you need to be watching over that for sure. >> Talk about the reinforced learnings from human feedback. How's that factoring in to the LLMs? Is that part of it? Should people be thinking about that? Is that a component that's important? >> It certainly is, yeah. So this is one of the big tweaks that happened with InstructGPT, which is the basis model behind ChatGPT and has since gone on to be used all over the place. So value alignment I think is through RLHF like you mentioned is a very interesting space to get into and it's one that you need to watch over. Like, you're asking humans for feedback over outputs from a model and then you're updating the model with respect to that human feedback. And now you've thrown humans into the loop here in a way that is just going to complicate things. And it certainly helps in many ways. You can ask humans to, let's say that you're deploying an internal chat bot at an enterprise, you could ask humans to align that LLM behind the chatbot to, say company values. And so you're listening feedback about these company values and that's going to scoot that chatbot that you're running internally more toward the kind of language that you'd like to use internally on like a Slack channel or something like that. Watching over that model I think in that specific case, that's a compliance and HR issue as well. So while it is part of the greater LLM stack, you can also view that as an independent bit to watch over. >> Got it, and these are important factors. When people see the Bing news, they freak out how it's doing great. Then it goes off the rails, it goes big, fails big. (laughing) So these models people see that, is that human interaction or is that feedback, is that not accepting it or how do people understand how to take that input in and how to build the right apps around LLMs? This is a tough question. >> Yeah, for sure. So some of the examples that you'll see online where these chatbots go off the rails are obviously humans trying to break the system, but some of them clearly aren't. And that's because these are large statistical models and we don't know what's going to pop out of them all the time. And even if you're doing as much in-house testing at the big companies like the Go-HERE's and the OpenAI's of the world, to try to prevent things like toxicity or racism or other sorts of bad content that might lead to bad pr, you're never going to catch all of these possible holes in the model itself. And so, again, it's very, very important to keep watching over that while it's in production. >> On the business model side, how are you guys doing? What's the approach? How do you guys engage with customers? Take a minute to explain the customer engagement. What do they need? What do you need? How's that work? >> Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So it's really easy to get started. It's literally a matter of like just handing out an API key and people can get started. And so we also offer alternative, we also offer versions that can be installed on-prem for models that, we find a lot of our customers have models that deal with very sensitive data. So you can run it in your cloud account or use our cloud version. And so yeah, it's pretty easy to get started with this stuff. We find people start using it a lot of times during the validation phase 'cause that way they can start baselining performance models, they can do champion challenger, they can really kind of baseline the performance of, maybe they're considering different foundation models. And so it's a really helpful tool for understanding differences in the way these models perform. And then from there they can just flow that into their production inferencing, so that as these systems are out there, you have really kind of real time monitoring for anomalies and for all sorts of weird behaviors as well as that continuous feedback loop that helps you make make your product get better and observability and you can run all sorts of aggregated reports to really understand what's going on with these models when they're out there deciding. I should also add that we just today have another way to adopt Arthur and that is we are in the AWS marketplace, and so we are available there just to make it that much easier to use your cloud credits, skip the procurement process, and get up and running really quickly. >> And that's great 'cause Amazon's got SageMaker, which handles a lot of privacy stuff, all kinds of cool things, or you can get down and dirty. So I got to ask on the next one, production is a big deal, getting stuff into production. What have you guys learned that you could share to folks watching? Is there a cost issue? I got to monitor, obviously you brought that up, we talked about the even reinforcement issues, all these things are happening. What is the big learnings that you could share for people that are going to put these into production to watch out for, to plan for, or be prepared for, hope for the best plan for the worst? What's your advice? >> I can give a couple opinions there and I'm sure Adam has. Well, yeah, the big one from my side is, again, I had mentioned this earlier, it's just the input data streams because humans are also exploring how they can use these systems to begin with. It's really, really hard to predict the type of inputs you're going to be seeing in production. Especially, we always talk about chatbots, but then any generative text tasks like this, let's say you're taking in news articles and summarizing them or something like that, it's very hard to get a good sampling even of the set of news articles in such a way that you can really predict what's going to pop out of that model. So to me, it's, adversarial maybe isn't the word that I would use, but it's an unnatural shifting input distribution of like prompts that you might see for these models. That's certainly one. And then the second one that I would talk about is, it can be hard to understand the costs, the inference time costs behind these LLMs. So the pricing on these is always changing as the models change size, it might go up, it might go down based on model size, based on energy cost and so on, but your pricing per token or per a thousand tokens and that I think can be difficult for some clients to wrap their head around. Again, you don't know how these systems are going to be used after all so it can be tough. And so again that's another metric that really should be tracked. >> Yeah, and there's a lot of trade off choices in there with like, how many tokens do you want at each step and in the sequence and based on, you have (indistinct) and you reject these tokens and so based on how your system's operating, that can make the cost highly variable. And that's if you're using like an API version that you're paying per token. A lot of people also choose to run these internally and as John mentioned, the inference time on these is significantly higher than a traditional classifi, even NLP classification model or tabular data model, like orders of magnitude higher. And so you really need to understand how that, as you're constantly iterating on these models and putting out new versions and new features in these models, how that's affecting the overall scale of that inference cost because you can use a lot of computing power very quickly with these profits. >> Yeah, scale, performance, price all come together. I got to ask while we're here on the secret sauce of the company, if you had to describe to people out there watching, what's the secret sauce of the company? What's the key to your success? >> Yeah, so John leads our research team and they've had a number of really cool, I think AI as much as it's been hyped for a while, it's still commercial AI at least is really in its infancy. And so the way we're able to pioneer new ways to think about performance for computer vision NLP LLMs is probably the thing that I'm proudest about. John and his team publish papers all the time at Navs and other places. But I think it's really being able to define what performance means for basically any kind of model type and give people really powerful tools to understand that on an ongoing basis. >> John, secret sauce, how would you describe it? You got all the action happening all around you. >> Yeah, well I going to appreciate Adam talking me up like that. No, I. (all laughing) >> Furrier: Robs to you. >> I would also say a couple of other things here. So we have a very strong engineering team and so I think some early hires there really set the standard at a very high bar that we've maintained as we've grown. And I think that's really paid dividends as scalabilities become even more of a challenge in these spaces, right? And so that's not just scalability when it comes to LLMs, that's scalability when it comes to millions of inferences per day, that kind of thing as well in traditional ML models. And I think that's compared to potential competitors, that's really... Well, it's made us able to just operate more efficiently and pass that along to the client. >> Yeah, and I think the infancy comment is really important because it's the beginning. You really is a long journey ahead. A lot of change coming, like I said, it's a huge wave. So I'm sure you guys got a lot of plannings at the foundation even for your own company, so I appreciate the candid response there. Final question for you guys is, what should the top things be for a company in 2023? If I'm going to set the agenda and I'm a customer moving forward, putting the pedal to the metal, so to speak, what are the top things I should be prioritizing or I need to do to be successful with AI in 2023? >> Yeah, I think, so number one, as we talked about, we've been talking about this entire episode, the things are changing so quickly and the opportunities for business transformation and really disrupting different applications, different use cases, is almost, I don't think we've even fully comprehended how big it is. And so really digging in to your business and understanding where I can apply these new sets of foundation models is, that's a top priority. The interesting thing is I think there's another force at play, which is the macroeconomic conditions and a lot of places are, they're having to work harder to justify budgets. So in the past, couple years ago maybe, they had a blank check to spend on AI and AI development at a lot of large enterprises that was limited primarily by the amount of talent they could scoop up. Nowadays these expenditures are getting scrutinized more. And so one of the things that we really help our customers with is like really calculating the ROI on these things. And so if you have models out there performing and you have a new version that you can put out that lifts the performance by 3%, how many tens of millions of dollars does that mean in business benefit? Or if I want to go to get approval from the CFO to spend a few million dollars on this new project, how can I bake in from the beginning the tools to really show the ROI along the way? Because I think in these systems when done well for a software project, the ROI can be like pretty spectacular. Like we see over a hundred percent ROI in the first year on some of these projects. And so, I think in 2023, you just need to be able to show what you're getting for that spend. >> It's a needle moving moment. You see it all the time with some of these aha moments or like, whoa, blown away. John, I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that comes up a lot for companies that I talked to, that are on my second wave, I would say coming in, maybe not, maybe the front wave of adopters is talent and team building. You mentioned some of the hires you got were game changing for you guys and set the bar high. As you move the needle, new developers going to need to come in. What's your advice given that you've been a professor, you've seen students, I know a lot of computer science people want to shift, they might not be yet skilled in AI, but they're proficient in programming, is that's going to be another opportunity with open source when things are happening. How do you talk to that next level of talent that wants to come in to this market to supplement teams and be on teams, lead teams? Any advice you have for people who want to build their teams and people who are out there and want to be a coder in AI? >> Yeah, I've advice, and this actually works for what it would take to be a successful AI company in 2023 as well, which is, just don't be afraid to iterate really quickly with these tools. The space is still being explored on what they can be used for. A lot of the tasks that they're used for now right? like creating marketing content using a machine learning is not a new thing to do. It just works really well now. And so I'm excited to see what the next year brings in terms of folks from outside of core computer science who are, other engineers or physicists or chemists or whatever who are learning how to use these increasingly easy to use tools to leverage LLMs for tasks that I think none of us have really thought about before. So that's really, really exciting. And so toward that I would say iterate quickly. Build things on your own, build demos, show them the friends, host them online and you'll learn along the way and you'll have somebody to show for it. And also you'll help us explore that space. >> Guys, congratulations with Arthur. Great company, great picks and shovels opportunities out there for everybody. Iterate fast, get in quickly and don't be afraid to iterate. Great advice and thank you for coming on and being part of the AWS showcase, thanks. >> Yeah, thanks for having us on John. Always a pleasure. >> Yeah, great stuff. Adam Wenchel, John Dickerson with Arthur. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Generative AI and AWS. Keep it right there for more action with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase AI/ML Top Startups Building Foundation Model Infrastructure. This is season three, episode one of our ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem to talk about data and analytics. I'm your host, Lisa Martin and today we're excited to be joined by two guests from Astronomer. Steven Hillion joins us, it's Chief Data Officer and Jeff Fletcher, it's director of ML. They're here to talk about machine learning and data orchestration. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today. >> Thank you. >> It's great to be here. >> Before we get into machine learning let's give the audience an overview of Astronomer. Talk about what that is, Steven. Talk about what you mean by data orchestration. >> Yeah, let's start with Astronomer. We're the Airflow company basically. The commercial developer behind the open-source project, Apache Airflow. I don't know if you've heard of Airflow. It's sort of de-facto standard these days for orchestrating data pipelines, data engineering pipelines, and as we'll talk about later, machine learning pipelines. It's really is the de-facto standard. I think we're up to about 12 million downloads a month. That's actually as a open-source project. I think at this point it's more popular by some measures than Slack. Airflow was created by Airbnb some years ago to manage all of their data pipelines and manage all of their workflows and now it powers the data ecosystem for organizations as diverse as Electronic Arts, Conde Nast is one of our big customers, a big user of Airflow. And also not to mention the biggest banks on Wall Street use Airflow and Astronomer to power the flow of data throughout their organizations. >> Talk about that a little bit more, Steven, in terms of the business impact. You mentioned some great customer names there. What is the business impact or outcomes that a data orchestration strategy enables businesses to achieve? >> Yeah, I mean, at the heart of it is quite simply, scheduling and managing data pipelines. And so if you have some enormous retailer who's managing the flow of information throughout their organization they may literally have thousands or even tens of thousands of data pipelines that need to execute every day to do things as simple as delivering metrics for the executives to consume at the end of the day, to producing on a weekly basis new machine learning models that can be used to drive product recommendations. One of our customers, for example, is a British food delivery service. And you get those recommendations in your application that says, "Well, maybe you want to have samosas with your curry." That sort of thing is powered by machine learning models that they train on a regular basis to reflect changing conditions in the market. And those are produced through Airflow and through the Astronomer platform, which is essentially a managed platform for running airflow. So at its simplest it really is just scheduling and managing those workflows. But that's easier said than done of course. I mean if you have 10 thousands of those things then you need to make sure that they all run that they all have sufficient compute resources. If things fail, how do you track those down across those 10,000 workflows? How easy is it for an average data scientist or data engineer to contribute their code, their Python notebooks or their SQL code into a production environment? And then you've got reproducibility, governance, auditing, like managing data flows across an organization which we think of as orchestrating them is much more than just scheduling. It becomes really complicated pretty quickly. >> I imagine there's a fair amount of complexity there. Jeff, let's bring you into the conversation. Talk a little bit about Astronomer through your lens, data orchestration and how it applies to MLOps. >> So I come from a machine learning background and for me the interesting part is that machine learning requires the expansion into orchestration. A lot of the same things that you're using to go and develop and build pipelines in a standard data orchestration space applies equally well in a machine learning orchestration space. What you're doing is you're moving data between different locations, between different tools, and then tasking different types of tools to act on that data. So extending it made logical sense from a implementation perspective. And a lot of my focus at Astronomer is really to explain how Airflow can be used well in a machine learning context. It is being used well, it is being used a lot by the customers that we have and also by users of the open source version. But it's really being able to explain to people why it's a natural extension for it and how well it fits into that. And a lot of it is also extending some of the infrastructure capabilities that Astronomer provides to those customers for them to be able to run some of the more platform specific requirements that come with doing machine learning pipelines. >> Let's get into some of the things that make Astronomer unique. Jeff, sticking with you, when you're in customer conversations, what are some of the key differentiators that you articulate to customers? >> So a lot of it is that we are not specific to one cloud provider. So we have the ability to operate across all of the big cloud providers. I know, I'm certain we have the best developers that understand how best practices implementations for data orchestration works. So we spend a lot of time talking to not just the business outcomes and the business users of the product, but also also for the technical people, how to help them better implement things that they may have come across on a Stack Overflow article or not necessarily just grown with how the product has migrated. So it's the ability to run it wherever you need to run it and also our ability to help you, the customer, better implement and understand those workflows that I think are two of the primary differentiators that we have. >> Lisa: Got it. >> I'll add another one if you don't mind. >> You can go ahead, Steven. >> Is lineage and dependencies between workflows. One thing we've done is to augment core Airflow with Lineage services. So using the Open Lineage framework, another open source framework for tracking datasets as they move from one workflow to another one, team to another, one data source to another is a really key component of what we do and we bundle that within the service so that as a developer or as a production engineer, you really don't have to worry about lineage, it just happens. Jeff, may show us some of this later that you can actually see as data flows from source through to a data warehouse out through a Python notebook to produce a predictive model or a dashboard. Can you see how those data products relate to each other? And when something goes wrong, figure out what upstream maybe caused the problem, or if you're about to change something, figure out what the impact is going to be on the rest of the organization. So Lineage is a big deal for us. >> Got it. >> And just to add on to that, the other thing to think about is that traditional Airflow is actually a complicated implementation. It required quite a lot of time spent understanding or was almost a bespoke language that you needed to be able to develop in two write these DAGs, which is like fundamental pipelines. So part of what we are focusing on is tooling that makes it more accessible to say a data analyst or a data scientist who doesn't have or really needs to gain the necessary background in how the semantics of Airflow DAGs works to still be able to get the benefit of what Airflow can do. So there is new features and capabilities built into the astronomer cloud platform that effectively obfuscates and removes the need to understand some of the deep work that goes on. But you can still do it, you still have that capability, but we are expanding it to be able to have orchestrated and repeatable processes accessible to more teams within the business. >> In terms of accessibility to more teams in the business. You talked about data scientists, data analysts, developers. Steven, I want to talk to you, as the chief data officer, are you having more and more conversations with that role and how is it emerging and evolving within your customer base? >> Hmm. That's a good question, and it is evolving because I think if you look historically at the way that Airflow has been used it's often from the ground up. You have individual data engineers or maybe single data engineering teams who adopt Airflow 'cause it's very popular. Lots of people know how to use it and they bring it into an organization and say, "Hey, let's use this to run our data pipelines." But then increasingly as you turn from pure workflow management and job scheduling to the larger topic of orchestration you realize it gets pretty complicated, you want to have coordination across teams, and you want to have standardization for the way that you manage your data pipelines. And so having a managed service for Airflow that exists in the cloud is easy to spin up as you expand usage across the organization. And thinking long term about that in the context of orchestration that's where I think the chief data officer or the head of analytics tends to get involved because they really want to think of this as a strategic investment that they're making. Not just per team individual Airflow deployments, but a network of data orchestrators. >> That network is key. Every company these days has to be a data company. We talk about companies being data driven. It's a common word, but it's true. It's whether it is a grocer or a bank or a hospital, they've got to be data companies. So talk to me a little bit about Astronomer's business model. How is this available? How do customers get their hands on it? >> Jeff, go ahead. >> Yeah, yeah. So we have a managed cloud service and we have two modes of operation. One, you can bring your own cloud infrastructure. So you can say here is an account in say, AWS or Azure and we can go and deploy the necessary infrastructure into that, or alternatively we can host everything for you. So it becomes a full SaaS offering. But we then provide a platform that connects at the backend to your internal IDP process. So however you are authenticating users to make sure that the correct people are accessing the services that they need with role-based access control. From there we are deploying through Kubernetes, the different services and capabilities into either your cloud account or into an account that we host. And from there Airflow does what Airflow does, which is its ability to then reach to different data systems and data platforms and to then run the orchestration. We make sure we do it securely, we have all the necessary compliance certifications required for GDPR in Europe and HIPAA based out of the US, and a whole bunch host of others. So it is a secure platform that can run in a place that you need it to run, but it is a managed Airflow that includes a lot of the extra capabilities like the cloud developer environment and the open lineage services to enhance the overall airflow experience. >> Enhance the overall experience. So Steven, going back to you, if I'm a Conde Nast or another organization, what are some of the key business outcomes that I can expect? As one of the things I think we've learned during the pandemic is access to realtime data is no longer a nice to have for organizations. It's really an imperative. It's that demanding consumer that wants to have that personalized, customized, instant access to a product or a service. So if I'm a Conde Nast or I'm one of your customers, what can I expect my business to be able to achieve as a result of data orchestration? >> Yeah, I think in a nutshell it's about providing a reliable, scalable, and easy to use service for developing and running data workflows. And talking of demanding customers, I mean, I'm actually a customer myself, as you mentioned, I'm the head of data for Astronomer. You won't be surprised to hear that we actually use Astronomer and Airflow to run all of our data pipelines. And so I can actually talk about my experience. When I started I was of course familiar with Airflow, but it always seemed a little bit unapproachable to me if I was introducing that to a new team of data scientists. They don't necessarily want to have to think about learning something new. But I think because of the layers that Astronomer has provided with our Astro service around Airflow it was pretty easy for me to get up and running. Of course I've got an incentive for doing that. I work for the Airflow company, but we went from about, at the beginning of last year, about 500 data tasks that we were running on a daily basis to about 15,000 every day. We run something like a million data operations every month within my team. And so as one outcome, just the ability to spin up new production workflows essentially in a single day you go from an idea in the morning to a new dashboard or a new model in the afternoon, that's really the business outcome is just removing that friction to operationalizing your machine learning and data workflows. >> And I imagine too, oh, go ahead, Jeff. >> Yeah, I think to add to that, one of the things that becomes part of the business cycle is a repeatable capabilities for things like reporting, for things like new machine learning models. And the impediment that has existed is that it's difficult to take that from a team that's an analyst team who then provide that or a data science team that then provide that to the data engineering team who have to work the workflow all the way through. What we're trying to unlock is the ability for those teams to directly get access to scheduling and orchestrating capabilities so that a business analyst can have a new report for C-suite execs that needs to be done once a week, but the time to repeatability for that report is much shorter. So it is then immediately in the hands of the person that needs to see it. It doesn't have to go into a long list of to-dos for a data engineering team that's already overworked that they eventually get it to it in a month's time. So that is also a part of it is that the realizing, orchestration I think is fairly well and a lot of people get the benefit of being able to orchestrate things within a business, but it's having more people be able to do it and shorten the time that that repeatability is there is one of the main benefits from good managed orchestration. >> So a lot of workforce productivity improvements in what you're doing to simplify things, giving more people access to data to be able to make those faster decisions, which ultimately helps the end user on the other end to get that product or the service that they're expecting like that. Jeff, I understand you have a demo that you can share so we can kind of dig into this. >> Yeah, let me take you through a quick look of how the whole thing works. So our starting point is our cloud infrastructure. This is the login. You go to the portal. You can see there's a a bunch of workspaces that are available. Workspaces are like individual places for people to operate in. I'm not going to delve into all the deep technical details here, but starting point for a lot of our data science customers is we have what we call our Cloud IDE, which is a web-based development environment for writing and building out DAGs without actually having to know how the underpinnings of Airflow work. This is an internal one, something that we use. You have a notebook-like interface that lets you write python code and SQL code and a bunch of specific bespoke type of blocks if you want. They all get pulled together and create a workflow. So this is a workflow, which gets compiled to something that looks like a complicated set of Python code, which is the DAG. I then have a CICD process pipeline where I commit this through to my GitHub repo. So this comes to a repo here, which is where these DAGs that I created in the previous step exist. I can then go and say, all right, I want to see how those particular DAGs have been running. We then get to the actual Airflow part. So this is the managed Airflow component. So we add the ability for teams to fairly easily bring up an Airflow instance and write code inside our notebook-like environment to get it into that instance. So you can see it's been running. That same process that we built here that graph ends up here inside this, but you don't need to know how the fundamentals of Airflow work in order to get this going. Then we can run one of these, it runs in the background and we can manage how it goes. And from there, every time this runs, it's emitting to a process underneath, which is the open lineage service, which is the lineage integration that allows me to come in here and have a look and see this was that actual, that same graph that we built, but now it's the historic version. So I know where things started, where things are going, and how it ran. And then I can also do a comparison. So if I want to see how this particular run worked compared to one historically, I can grab one from a previous date and it will show me the comparison between the two. So that combination of managed Airflow, getting Airflow up and running very quickly, but the Cloud IDE that lets you write code and know how to get something into a repeatable format get that into Airflow and have that attached to the lineage process adds what is a complete end-to-end orchestration process for any business looking to get the benefit from orchestration. >> Outstanding. Thank you so much Jeff for digging into that. So one of my last questions, Steven is for you. This is exciting. There's a lot that you guys are enabling organizations to achieve here to really become data-driven companies. So where can folks go to get their hands on this? >> Yeah, just go to astronomer.io and we have plenty of resources. If you're new to Airflow, you can read our documentation, our guides to getting started. We have a CLI that you can download that is really I think the easiest way to get started with Airflow. But you can actually sign up for a trial. You can sign up for a guided trial where our teams, we have a team of experts, really the world experts on getting Airflow up and running. And they'll take you through that trial and allow you to actually kick the tires and see how this works with your data. And I think you'll see pretty quickly that it's very easy to get started with Airflow, whether you're doing that from the command line or doing that in our cloud service. And all of that is available on our website >> astronomer.io. Jeff, last question for you. What are you excited about? There's so much going on here. What are some of the things, maybe you can give us a sneak peek coming down the road here that prospects and existing customers should be excited about? >> I think a lot of the development around the data awareness components, so one of the things that's traditionally been complicated with orchestration is you leave your data in the place that you're operating on and we're starting to have more data processing capability being built into Airflow. And from a Astronomer perspective, we are adding more capabilities around working with larger datasets, doing bigger data manipulation with inside the Airflow process itself. And that lends itself to better machine learning implementation. So as we start to grow and as we start to get better in the machine learning context, well, in the data awareness context, it unlocks a lot more capability to do and implement proper machine learning pipelines. >> Awesome guys. Exciting stuff. Thank you so much for talking to me about Astronomer, machine learning, data orchestration, and really the value in it for your customers. Steve and Jeff, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> My pleasure, thanks. >> And we thank you for watching. This is season three, episode one of our ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> OpenAI The company, and ChatGPT have taken the world by storm. Microsoft reportedly is investing an additional 10 billion dollars into the company. But in our view, while the hype around ChatGPT is justified, we don't believe OpenAI will lock up the market with its first mover advantage. Rather, we believe that success in this market will be directly proportional to the quality and quantity of data that a technology company has at its disposal, and the compute power that it could deploy to run its system. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the excitement around ChatGPT, and debate the premise that the company's early entry into the space may not confer winner take all advantage to OpenAI. And to do so, we welcome CUBE collaborator, alum, Sarbjeet Johal, (chuckles) and John Furrier, co-host of the Cube. Great to see you Sarbjeet, John. Really appreciate you guys coming to the program. >> Great to be on. >> Okay, so what is ChatGPT? Well, actually we asked ChatGPT, what is ChatGPT? So here's what it said. ChatGPT is a state-of-the-art language model developed by OpenAI that can generate human-like text. It could be fine tuned for a variety of language tasks, such as conversation, summarization, and language translation. So I asked it, give it to me in 50 words or less. How did it do? Anything to add? >> Yeah, think it did good. It's large language model, like previous models, but it started applying the transformers sort of mechanism to focus on what prompt you have given it to itself. And then also the what answer it gave you in the first, sort of, one sentence or two sentences, and then introspect on itself, like what I have already said to you. And so just work on that. So it it's self sort of focus if you will. It does, the transformers help the large language models to do that. >> So to your point, it's a large language model, and GPT stands for generative pre-trained transformer. >> And if you put the definition back up there again, if you put it back up on the screen, let's see it back up. Okay, it actually missed the large, word large. So one of the problems with ChatGPT, it's not always accurate. It's actually a large language model, and it says state of the art language model. And if you look at Google, Google has dominated AI for many times and they're well known as being the best at this. And apparently Google has their own large language model, LLM, in play and have been holding it back to release because of backlash on the accuracy. Like just in that example you showed is a great point. They got almost right, but they missed the key word. >> You know what's funny about that John, is I had previously asked it in my prompt to give me it in less than a hundred words, and it was too long, I said I was too long for Breaking Analysis, and there it went into the fact that it's a large language model. So it largely, it gave me a really different answer the, for both times. So, but it's still pretty amazing for those of you who haven't played with it yet. And one of the best examples that I saw was Ben Charrington from This Week In ML AI podcast. And I stumbled on this thanks to Brian Gracely, who was listening to one of his Cloudcasts. Basically what Ben did is he took, he prompted ChatGPT to interview ChatGPT, and he simply gave the system the prompts, and then he ran the questions and answers into this avatar builder and sped it up 2X so it didn't sound like a machine. And voila, it was amazing. So John is ChatGPT going to take over as a cube host? >> Well, I was thinking, we get the questions in advance sometimes from PR people. We should actually just plug it in ChatGPT, add it to our notes, and saying, "Is this good enough for you? Let's ask the real question." So I think, you know, I think there's a lot of heavy lifting that gets done. I think the ChatGPT is a phenomenal revolution. I think it highlights the use case. Like that example we showed earlier. It gets most of it right. So it's directionally correct and it feels like it's an answer, but it's not a hundred percent accurate. And I think that's where people are seeing value in it. Writing marketing, copy, brainstorming, guest list, gift list for somebody. Write me some lyrics to a song. Give me a thesis about healthcare policy in the United States. It'll do a bang up job, and then you got to go in and you can massage it. So we're going to do three quarters of the work. That's why plagiarism and schools are kind of freaking out. And that's why Microsoft put 10 billion in, because why wouldn't this be a feature of Word, or the OS to help it do stuff on behalf of the user. So linguistically it's a beautiful thing. You can input a string and get a good answer. It's not a search result. >> And we're going to get your take on on Microsoft and, but it kind of levels the playing- but ChatGPT writes better than I do, Sarbjeet, and I know you have some good examples too. You mentioned the Reed Hastings example. >> Yeah, I was listening to Reed Hastings fireside chat with ChatGPT, and the answers were coming as sort of voice, in the voice format. And it was amazing what, he was having very sort of philosophy kind of talk with the ChatGPT, the longer sentences, like he was going on, like, just like we are talking, he was talking for like almost two minutes and then ChatGPT was answering. It was not one sentence question, and then a lot of answers from ChatGPT and yeah, you're right. I, this is our ability. I've been thinking deep about this since yesterday, we talked about, like, we want to do this segment. The data is fed into the data model. It can be the current data as well, but I think that, like, models like ChatGPT, other companies will have those too. They can, they're democratizing the intelligence, but they're not creating intelligence yet, definitely yet I can say that. They will give you all the finite answers. Like, okay, how do you do this for loop in Java, versus, you know, C sharp, and as a programmer you can do that, in, but they can't tell you that, how to write a new algorithm or write a new search algorithm for you. They cannot create a secretive code for you to- >> Not yet. >> Have competitive advantage. >> Not yet, not yet. >> but you- >> Can Google do that today? >> No one really can. The reasoning side of the data is, we talked about at our Supercloud event, with Zhamak Dehghani who's was CEO of, now of Nextdata. This next wave of data intelligence is going to come from entrepreneurs that are probably cross discipline, computer science and some other discipline. But they're going to be new things, for example, data, metadata, and data. It's hard to do reasoning like a human being, so that needs more data to train itself. So I think the first gen of this training module for the large language model they have is a corpus of text. Lot of that's why blog posts are, but the facts are wrong and sometimes out of context, because that contextual reasoning takes time, it takes intelligence. So machines need to become intelligent, and so therefore they need to be trained. So you're going to start to see, I think, a lot of acceleration on training the data sets. And again, it's only as good as the data you can get. And again, proprietary data sets will be a huge winner. Anyone who's got a large corpus of content, proprietary content like theCUBE or SiliconANGLE as a publisher will benefit from this. Large FinTech companies, anyone with large proprietary data will probably be a big winner on this generative AI wave, because it just, it will eat that up, and turn that back into something better. So I think there's going to be a lot of interesting things to look at here. And certainly productivity's going to be off the charts for vanilla and the internet is going to get swarmed with vanilla content. So if you're in the content business, and you're an original content producer of any kind, you're going to be not vanilla, so you're going to be better. So I think there's so much at play Dave (indistinct). >> I think the playing field has been risen, so we- >> Risen and leveled? >> Yeah, and leveled to certain extent. So it's now like that few people as consumers, as consumers of AI, we will have a advantage and others cannot have that advantage. So it will be democratized. That's, I'm sure about that. But if you take the example of calculator, when the calculator came in, and a lot of people are, "Oh, people can't do math anymore because calculator is there." right? So it's a similar sort of moment, just like a calculator for the next level. But, again- >> I see it more like open source, Sarbjeet, because like if you think about what ChatGPT's doing, you do a query and it comes from somewhere the value of a post from ChatGPT is just a reuse of AI. The original content accent will be come from a human. So if I lay out a paragraph from ChatGPT, did some heavy lifting on some facts, I check the facts, save me about maybe- >> Yeah, it's productive. >> An hour writing, and then I write a killer two, three sentences of, like, sharp original thinking or critical analysis. I then took that body of work, open source content, and then laid something on top of it. >> And Sarbjeet's example is a good one, because like if the calculator kids don't do math as well anymore, the slide rule, remember we had slide rules as kids, remember we first started using Waze, you know, we were this minority and you had an advantage over other drivers. Now Waze is like, you know, social traffic, you know, navigation, everybody had, you know- >> All the back roads are crowded. >> They're car crowded. (group laughs) Exactly. All right, let's, let's move on. What about this notion that futurist Ray Amara put forth and really Amara's Law that we're showing here, it's, the law is we, you know, "We tend to overestimate the effect of technology in the short run and underestimate it in the long run." Is that the case, do you think, with ChatGPT? What do you think Sarbjeet? >> I think that's true actually. There's a lot of, >> We don't debate this. >> There's a lot of awe, like when people see the results from ChatGPT, they say what, what the heck? Like, it can do this? But then if you use it more and more and more, and I ask the set of similar question, not the same question, and it gives you like same answer. It's like reading from the same bucket of text in, the interior read (indistinct) where the ChatGPT, you will see that in some couple of segments. It's very, it sounds so boring that the ChatGPT is coming out the same two sentences every time. So it is kind of good, but it's not as good as people think it is right now. But we will have, go through this, you know, hype sort of cycle and get realistic with it. And then in the long term, I think it's a great thing in the short term, it's not something which will (indistinct) >> What's your counter point? You're saying it's not. >> I, no I think the question was, it's hyped up in the short term and not it's underestimated long term. That's what I think what he said, quote. >> Yes, yeah. That's what he said. >> Okay, I think that's wrong with this, because this is a unique, ChatGPT is a unique kind of impact and it's very generational. People have been comparing it, I have been comparing to the internet, like the web, web browser Mosaic and Netscape, right, Navigator. I mean, I clearly still remember the days seeing Navigator for the first time, wow. And there weren't not many sites you could go to, everyone typed in, you know, cars.com, you know. >> That (indistinct) wasn't that overestimated, the overhyped at the beginning and underestimated. >> No, it was, it was underestimated long run, people thought. >> But that Amara's law. >> That's what is. >> No, they said overestimated? >> Overestimated near term underestimated- overhyped near term, underestimated long term. I got, right I mean? >> Well, I, yeah okay, so I would then agree, okay then- >> We were off the charts about the internet in the early days, and it actually exceeded our expectations. >> Well there were people who were, like, poo-pooing it early on. So when the browser came out, people were like, "Oh, the web's a toy for kids." I mean, in 1995 the web was a joke, right? So '96, you had online populations growing, so you had structural changes going on around the browser, internet population. And then that replaced other things, direct mail, other business activities that were once analog then went to the web, kind of read only as you, as we always talk about. So I think that's a moment where the hype long term, the smart money, and the smart industry experts all get the long term. And in this case, there's more poo-pooing in the short term. "Ah, it's not a big deal, it's just AI." I've heard many people poo-pooing ChatGPT, and a lot of smart people saying, "No this is next gen, this is different and it's only going to get better." So I think people are estimating a big long game on this one. >> So you're saying it's bifurcated. There's those who say- >> Yes. >> Okay, all right, let's get to the heart of the premise, and possibly the debate for today's episode. Will OpenAI's early entry into the market confer sustainable competitive advantage for the company. And if you look at the history of tech, the technology industry, it's kind of littered with first mover failures. Altair, IBM, Tandy, Commodore, they and Apple even, they were really early in the PC game. They took a backseat to Dell who came in the scene years later with a better business model. Netscape, you were just talking about, was all the rage in Silicon Valley, with the first browser, drove up all the housing prices out here. AltaVista was the first search engine to really, you know, index full text. >> Owned by Dell, I mean DEC. >> Owned by Digital. >> Yeah, Digital Equipment >> Compaq bought it. And of course as an aside, Digital, they wanted to showcase their hardware, right? Their super computer stuff. And then so Friendster and MySpace, they came before Facebook. The iPhone certainly wasn't the first mobile device. So lots of failed examples, but there are some recent successes like AWS and cloud. >> You could say smartphone. So I mean. >> Well I know, and you can, we can parse this so we'll debate it. Now Twitter, you could argue, had first mover advantage. You kind of gave me that one John. Bitcoin and crypto clearly had first mover advantage, and sustaining that. Guys, will OpenAI make it to the list on the right with ChatGPT, what do you think? >> I think categorically as a company, it probably won't, but as a category, I think what they're doing will, so OpenAI as a company, they get funding, there's power dynamics involved. Microsoft put a billion dollars in early on, then they just pony it up. Now they're reporting 10 billion more. So, like, if the browsers, Microsoft had competitive advantage over Netscape, and used monopoly power, and convicted by the Department of Justice for killing Netscape with their monopoly, Netscape should have had won that battle, but Microsoft killed it. In this case, Microsoft's not killing it, they're buying into it. So I think the embrace extend Microsoft power here makes OpenAI vulnerable for that one vendor solution. So the AI as a company might not make the list, but the category of what this is, large language model AI, is probably will be on the right hand side. >> Okay, we're going to come back to the government intervention and maybe do some comparisons, but what are your thoughts on this premise here? That, it will basically set- put forth the premise that it, that ChatGPT, its early entry into the market will not confer competitive advantage to >> For OpenAI. >> To Open- Yeah, do you agree with that? >> I agree with that actually. It, because Google has been at it, and they have been holding back, as John said because of the scrutiny from the Fed, right, so- >> And privacy too. >> And the privacy and the accuracy as well. But I think Sam Altman and the company on those guys, right? They have put this in a hasty way out there, you know, because it makes mistakes, and there are a lot of questions around the, sort of, where the content is coming from. You saw that as your example, it just stole the content, and without your permission, you know? >> Yeah. So as quick this aside- >> And it codes on people's behalf and the, those codes are wrong. So there's a lot of, sort of, false information it's putting out there. So it's a very vulnerable thing to do what Sam Altman- >> So even though it'll get better, others will compete. >> So look, just side note, a term which Reid Hoffman used a little bit. Like he said, it's experimental launch, like, you know, it's- >> It's pretty damn good. >> It is clever because according to Sam- >> It's more than clever. It's good. >> It's awesome, if you haven't used it. I mean you write- you read what it writes and you go, "This thing writes so well, it writes so much better than you." >> The human emotion drives that too. I think that's a big thing. But- >> I Want to add one more- >> Make your last point. >> Last one. Okay. So, but he's still holding back. He's conducting quite a few interviews. If you want to get the gist of it, there's an interview with StrictlyVC interview from yesterday with Sam Altman. Listen to that one it's an eye opening what they want- where they want to take it. But my last one I want to make it on this point is that Satya Nadella yesterday did an interview with Wall Street Journal. I think he was doing- >> You were not impressed. >> I was not impressed because he was pushing it too much. So Sam Altman's holding back so there's less backlash. >> Got 10 billion reasons to push. >> I think he's almost- >> Microsoft just laid off 10000 people. Hey ChatGPT, find me a job. You know like. (group laughs) >> He's overselling it to an extent that I think it will backfire on Microsoft. And he's over promising a lot of stuff right now, I think. I don't know why he's very jittery about all these things. And he did the same thing during Ignite as well. So he said, "Oh, this AI will write code for you and this and that." Like you called him out- >> The hyperbole- >> During your- >> from Satya Nadella, he's got a lot of hyperbole. (group talks over each other) >> All right, Let's, go ahead. >> Well, can I weigh in on the whole- >> Yeah, sure. >> Microsoft thing on whether OpenAI, here's the take on this. I think it's more like the browser moment to me, because I could relate to that experience with ChatG, personally, emotionally, when I saw that, and I remember vividly- >> You mean that aha moment (indistinct). >> Like this is obviously the future. Anything else in the old world is dead, website's going to be everywhere. It was just instant dot connection for me. And a lot of other smart people who saw this. Lot of people by the way, didn't see it. Someone said the web's a toy. At the company I was worked for at the time, Hewlett Packard, they like, they could have been in, they had invented HTML, and so like all this stuff was, like, they just passed, the web was just being passed over. But at that time, the browser got better, more websites came on board. So the structural advantage there was online web usage was growing, online user population. So that was growing exponentially with the rise of the Netscape browser. So OpenAI could stay on the right side of your list as durable, if they leverage the category that they're creating, can get the scale. And if they can get the scale, just like Twitter, that failed so many times that they still hung around. So it was a product that was always successful, right? So I mean, it should have- >> You're right, it was terrible, we kept coming back. >> The fail whale, but it still grew. So OpenAI has that moment. They could do it if Microsoft doesn't meddle too much with too much power as a vendor. They could be the Netscape Navigator, without the anti-competitive behavior of somebody else. So to me, they have the pole position. So they have an opportunity. So if not, if they don't execute, then there's opportunity. There's not a lot of barriers to entry, vis-a-vis say the CapEx of say a cloud company like AWS. You can't replicate that, Many have tried, but I think you can replicate OpenAI. >> And we're going to talk about that. Okay, so real quick, I want to bring in some ETR data. This isn't an ETR heavy segment, only because this so new, you know, they haven't coverage yet, but they do cover AI. So basically what we're seeing here is a slide on the vertical axis's net score, which is a measure of spending momentum, and in the horizontal axis's is presence in the dataset. Think of it as, like, market presence. And in the insert right there, you can see how the dots are plotted, the two columns. And so, but the key point here that we want to make, there's a bunch of companies on the left, is he like, you know, DataRobot and C3 AI and some others, but the big whales, Google, AWS, Microsoft, are really dominant in this market. So that's really the key takeaway that, can we- >> I notice IBM is way low. >> Yeah, IBM's low, and actually bring that back up and you, but then you see Oracle who actually is injecting. So I guess that's the other point is, you're not necessarily going to go buy AI, and you know, build your own AI, you're going to, it's going to be there and, it, Salesforce is going to embed it into its platform, the SaaS companies, and you're going to purchase AI. You're not necessarily going to build it. But some companies obviously are. >> I mean to quote IBM's general manager Rob Thomas, "You can't have AI with IA." information architecture and David Flynn- >> You can't Have AI without IA >> without, you can't have AI without IA. You can't have, if you have an Information Architecture, you then can power AI. Yesterday David Flynn, with Hammersmith, was on our Supercloud. He was pointing out that the relationship of storage, where you store things, also impacts the data and stressablity, and Zhamak from Nextdata, she was pointing out that same thing. So the data problem factors into all this too, Dave. >> So you got the big cloud and internet giants, they're all poised to go after this opportunity. Microsoft is investing up to 10 billion. Google's code red, which was, you know, the headline in the New York Times. Of course Apple is there and several alternatives in the market today. Guys like Chinchilla, Bloom, and there's a company Jasper and several others, and then Lena Khan looms large and the government's around the world, EU, US, China, all taking notice before the market really is coalesced around a single player. You know, John, you mentioned Netscape, they kind of really, the US government was way late to that game. It was kind of game over. And Netscape, I remember Barksdale was like, "Eh, we're going to be selling software in the enterprise anyway." and then, pshew, the company just dissipated. So, but it looks like the US government, especially with Lena Khan, they're changing the definition of antitrust and what the cause is to go after people, and they're really much more aggressive. It's only what, two years ago that (indistinct). >> Yeah, the problem I have with the federal oversight is this, they're always like late to the game, and they're slow to catch up. So in other words, they're working on stuff that should have been solved a year and a half, two years ago around some of the social networks hiding behind some of the rules around open web back in the days, and I think- >> But they're like 15 years late to that. >> Yeah, and now they got this new thing on top of it. So like, I just worry about them getting their fingers. >> But there's only two years, you know, OpenAI. >> No, but the thing (indistinct). >> No, they're still fighting other battles. But the problem with government is that they're going to label Big Tech as like a evil thing like Pharma, it's like smoke- >> You know Lena Khan wants to kill Big Tech, there's no question. >> So I think Big Tech is getting a very seriously bad rap. And I think anything that the government does that shades darkness on tech, is politically motivated in most cases. You can almost look at everything, and my 80 20 rule is in play here. 80% of the government activity around tech is bullshit, it's politically motivated, and the 20% is probably relevant, but off the mark and not organized. >> Well market forces have always been the determining factor of success. The governments, you know, have been pretty much failed. I mean you look at IBM's antitrust, that, what did that do? The market ultimately beat them. You look at Microsoft back in the day, right? Windows 95 was peaking, the government came in. But you know, like you said, they missed the web, right, and >> so they were hanging on- >> There's nobody in government >> to Windows. >> that actually knows- >> And so, you, I think you're right. It's market forces that are going to determine this. But Sarbjeet, what do you make of Microsoft's big bet here, you weren't impressed with with Nadella. How do you think, where are they going to apply it? Is this going to be a Hail Mary for Bing, or is it going to be applied elsewhere? What do you think. >> They are saying that they will, sort of, weave this into their products, office products, productivity and also to write code as well, developer productivity as well. That's a big play for them. But coming back to your antitrust sort of comments, right? I believe the, your comment was like, oh, fed was late 10 years or 15 years earlier, but now they're two years. But things are moving very fast now as compared to they used to move. >> So two years is like 10 Years. >> Yeah, two years is like 10 years. Just want to make that point. (Dave laughs) This thing is going like wildfire. Any new tech which comes in that I think they're going against distribution channels. Lina Khan has commented time and again that the marketplace model is that she wants to have some grip on. Cloud marketplaces are a kind of monopolistic kind of way. >> I don't, I don't see this, I don't see a Chat AI. >> You told me it's not Bing, you had an interesting comment. >> No, no. First of all, this is great from Microsoft. If you're Microsoft- >> Why? >> Because Microsoft doesn't have the AI chops that Google has, right? Google is got so much core competency on how they run their search, how they run their backends, their cloud, even though they don't get a lot of cloud market share in the enterprise, they got a kick ass cloud cause they needed one. >> Totally. >> They've invented SRE. I mean Google's development and engineering chops are off the scales, right? Amazon's got some good chops, but Google's got like 10 times more chops than AWS in my opinion. Cloud's a whole different story. Microsoft gets AI, they get a playbook, they get a product they can render into, the not only Bing, productivity software, helping people write papers, PowerPoint, also don't forget the cloud AI can super help. We had this conversation on our Supercloud event, where AI's going to do a lot of the heavy lifting around understanding observability and managing service meshes, to managing microservices, to turning on and off applications, and or maybe writing code in real time. So there's a plethora of use cases for Microsoft to deploy this. combined with their R and D budgets, they can then turbocharge more research, build on it. So I think this gives them a car in the game, Google may have pole position with AI, but this puts Microsoft right in the game, and they already have a lot of stuff going on. But this just, I mean everything gets lifted up. Security, cloud, productivity suite, everything. >> What's under the hood at Google, and why aren't they talking about it? I mean they got to be freaked out about this. No? Or do they have kind of a magic bullet? >> I think they have the, they have the chops definitely. Magic bullet, I don't know where they are, as compared to the ChatGPT 3 or 4 models. Like they, but if you look at the online sort of activity and the videos put out there from Google folks, Google technology folks, that's account you should look at if you are looking there, they have put all these distinctions what ChatGPT 3 has used, they have been talking about for a while as well. So it's not like it's a secret thing that you cannot replicate. As you said earlier, like in the beginning of this segment, that anybody who has more data and the capacity to process that data, which Google has both, I think they will win this. >> Obviously living in Palo Alto where the Google founders are, and Google's headquarters next town over we have- >> We're so close to them. We have inside information on some of the thinking and that hasn't been reported by any outlet yet. And that is, is that, from what I'm hearing from my sources, is Google has it, they don't want to release it for many reasons. One is it might screw up their search monopoly, one, two, they're worried about the accuracy, 'cause Google will get sued. 'Cause a lot of people are jamming on this ChatGPT as, "Oh it does everything for me." when it's clearly not a hundred percent accurate all the time. >> So Lina Kahn is looming, and so Google's like be careful. >> Yeah so Google's just like, this is the third, could be a third rail. >> But the first thing you said is a concern. >> Well no. >> The disruptive (indistinct) >> What they will do is do a Waymo kind of thing, where they spin out a separate company. >> They're doing that. >> The discussions happening, they're going to spin out the separate company and put it over there, and saying, "This is AI, got search over there, don't touch that search, 'cause that's where all the revenue is." (chuckles) >> So, okay, so that's how they deal with the Clay Christensen dilemma. What's the business model here? I mean it's not advertising, right? Is it to charge you for a query? What, how do you make money at this? >> It's a good question, I mean my thinking is, first of all, it's cool to type stuff in and see a paper get written, or write a blog post, or gimme a marketing slogan for this or that or write some code. I think the API side of the business will be critical. And I think Howie Xu, I know you're going to reference some of his comments yesterday on Supercloud, I think this brings a whole 'nother user interface into technology consumption. I think the business model, not yet clear, but it will probably be some sort of either API and developer environment or just a straight up free consumer product, with some sort of freemium backend thing for business. >> And he was saying too, it's natural language is the way in which you're going to interact with these systems. >> I think it's APIs, it's APIs, APIs, APIs, because these people who are cooking up these models, and it takes a lot of compute power to train these and to, for inference as well. Somebody did the analysis on the how many cents a Google search costs to Google, and how many cents the ChatGPT query costs. It's, you know, 100x or something on that. You can take a look at that. >> A 100x on which side? >> You're saying two orders of magnitude more expensive for ChatGPT >> Much more, yeah. >> Than for Google. >> It's very expensive. >> So Google's got the data, they got the infrastructure and they got, you're saying they got the cost (indistinct) >> No actually it's a simple query as well, but they are trying to put together the answers, and they're going through a lot more data versus index data already, you know. >> Let me clarify, you're saying that Google's version of ChatGPT is more efficient? >> No, I'm, I'm saying Google search results. >> Ah, search results. >> What are used to today, but cheaper. >> But that, does that, is that going to confer advantage to Google's large language (indistinct)? >> It will, because there were deep science (indistinct). >> Google, I don't think Google search is doing a large language model on their search, it's keyword search. You know, what's the weather in Santa Cruz? Or how, what's the weather going to be? Or you know, how do I find this? Now they have done a smart job of doing some things with those queries, auto complete, re direct navigation. But it's, it's not entity. It's not like, "Hey, what's Dave Vellante thinking this week in Breaking Analysis?" ChatGPT might get that, because it'll get your Breaking Analysis, it'll synthesize it. There'll be some, maybe some clips. It'll be like, you know, I mean. >> Well I got to tell you, I asked ChatGPT to, like, I said, I'm going to enter a transcript of a discussion I had with Nir Zuk, the CTO of Palo Alto Networks, And I want you to write a 750 word blog. I never input the transcript. It wrote a 750 word blog. It attributed quotes to him, and it just pulled a bunch of stuff that, and said, okay, here it is. It talked about Supercloud, it defined Supercloud. >> It's made, it makes you- >> Wow, But it was a big lie. It was fraudulent, but still, blew me away. >> Again, vanilla content and non accurate content. So we are going to see a surge of misinformation on steroids, but I call it the vanilla content. Wow, that's just so boring, (indistinct). >> There's so many dangers. >> Make your point, cause we got to, almost out of time. >> Okay, so the consumption, like how do you consume this thing. As humans, we are consuming it and we are, like, getting a nicely, like, surprisingly shocked, you know, wow, that's cool. It's going to increase productivity and all that stuff, right? And on the danger side as well, the bad actors can take hold of it and create fake content and we have the fake sort of intelligence, if you go out there. So that's one thing. The second thing is, we are as humans are consuming this as language. Like we read that, we listen to it, whatever format we consume that is, but the ultimate usage of that will be when the machines can take that output from likes of ChatGPT, and do actions based on that. The robots can work, the robot can paint your house, we were talking about, right? Right now we can't do that. >> Data apps. >> So the data has to be ingested by the machines. It has to be digestible by the machines. And the machines cannot digest unorganized data right now, we will get better on the ingestion side as well. So we are getting better. >> Data, reasoning, insights, and action. >> I like that mall, paint my house. >> So, okay- >> By the way, that means drones that'll come in. Spray painting your house. >> Hey, it wasn't too long ago that robots couldn't climb stairs, as I like to point out. Okay, and of course it's no surprise the venture capitalists are lining up to eat at the trough, as I'd like to say. Let's hear, you'd referenced this earlier, John, let's hear what AI expert Howie Xu said at the Supercloud event, about what it takes to clone ChatGPT. Please, play the clip. >> So one of the VCs actually asked me the other day, right? "Hey, how much money do I need to spend, invest to get a, you know, another shot to the openAI sort of the level." You know, I did a (indistinct) >> Line up. >> A hundred million dollar is the order of magnitude that I came up with, right? You know, not a billion, not 10 million, right? So a hundred- >> Guys a hundred million dollars, that's an astoundingly low figure. What do you make of it? >> I was in an interview with, I was interviewing, I think he said hundred million or so, but in the hundreds of millions, not a billion right? >> You were trying to get him up, you were like "Hundreds of millions." >> Well I think, I- >> He's like, eh, not 10, not a billion. >> Well first of all, Howie Xu's an expert machine learning. He's at Zscaler, he's a machine learning AI guy. But he comes from VMware, he's got his technology pedigrees really off the chart. Great friend of theCUBE and kind of like a CUBE analyst for us. And he's smart. He's right. I think the barriers to entry from a dollar standpoint are lower than say the CapEx required to compete with AWS. Clearly, the CapEx spending to build all the tech for the run a cloud. >> And you don't need a huge sales force. >> And in some case apps too, it's the same thing. But I think it's not that hard. >> But am I right about that? You don't need a huge sales force either. It's, what, you know >> If the product's good, it will sell, this is a new era. The better mouse trap will win. This is the new economics in software, right? So- >> Because you look at the amount of money Lacework, and Snyk, Snowflake, Databrooks. Look at the amount of money they've raised. I mean it's like a billion dollars before they get to IPO or more. 'Cause they need promotion, they need go to market. You don't need (indistinct) >> OpenAI's been working on this for multiple five years plus it's, hasn't, wasn't born yesterday. Took a lot of years to get going. And Sam is depositioning all the success, because he's trying to manage expectations, To your point Sarbjeet, earlier. It's like, yeah, he's trying to "Whoa, whoa, settle down everybody, (Dave laughs) it's not that great." because he doesn't want to fall into that, you know, hero and then get taken down, so. >> It may take a 100 million or 150 or 200 million to train the model. But to, for the inference to, yeah to for the inference machine, It will take a lot more, I believe. >> Give it, so imagine, >> Because- >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Go ahead. But because it consumes a lot more compute cycles and it's certain level of storage and everything, right, which they already have. So I think to compute is different. To frame the model is a different cost. But to run the business is different, because I think 100 million can go into just fighting the Fed. >> Well there's a flywheel too. >> Oh that's (indistinct) >> (indistinct) >> We are running the business, right? >> It's an interesting number, but it's also kind of, like, context to it. So here, a hundred million spend it, you get there, but you got to factor in the fact that the ways companies win these days is critical mass scale, hitting a flywheel. If they can keep that flywheel of the value that they got going on and get better, you can almost imagine a marketplace where, hey, we have proprietary data, we're SiliconANGLE in theCUBE. We have proprietary content, CUBE videos, transcripts. Well wouldn't it be great if someone in a marketplace could sell a module for us, right? We buy that, Amazon's thing and things like that. So if they can get a marketplace going where you can apply to data sets that may be proprietary, you can start to see this become bigger. And so I think the key barriers to entry is going to be success. I'll give you an example, Reddit. Reddit is successful and it's hard to copy, not because of the software. >> They built the moat. >> Because you can, buy Reddit open source software and try To compete. >> They built the moat with their community. >> Their community, their scale, their user expectation. Twitter, we referenced earlier, that thing should have gone under the first two years, but there was such a great emotional product. People would tolerate the fail whale. And then, you know, well that was a whole 'nother thing. >> Then a plane landed in (John laughs) the Hudson and it was over. >> I think verticals, a lot of verticals will build applications using these models like for lawyers, for doctors, for scientists, for content creators, for- >> So you'll have many hundreds of millions of dollars investments that are going to be seeping out. If, all right, we got to wrap, if you had to put odds on it that that OpenAI is going to be the leader, maybe not a winner take all leader, but like you look at like Amazon and cloud, they're not winner take all, these aren't necessarily winner take all markets. It's not necessarily a zero sum game, but let's call it winner take most. What odds would you give that open AI 10 years from now will be in that position. >> If I'm 0 to 10 kind of thing? >> Yeah, it's like horse race, 3 to 1, 2 to 1, even money, 10 to 1, 50 to 1. >> Maybe 2 to 1, >> 2 to 1, that's pretty low odds. That's basically saying they're the favorite, they're the front runner. Would you agree with that? >> I'd say 4 to 1. >> Yeah, I was going to say I'm like a 5 to 1, 7 to 1 type of person, 'cause I'm a skeptic with, you know, there's so much competition, but- >> I think they're definitely the leader. I mean you got to say, I mean. >> Oh there's no question. There's no question about it. >> The question is can they execute? >> They're not Friendster, is what you're saying. >> They're not Friendster and they're more like Twitter and Reddit where they have momentum. If they can execute on the product side, and if they don't stumble on that, they will continue to have the lead. >> If they say stay neutral, as Sam is, has been saying, that, hey, Microsoft is one of our partners, if you look at their company model, how they have structured the company, then they're going to pay back to the investors, like Microsoft is the biggest one, up to certain, like by certain number of years, they're going to pay back from all the money they make, and after that, they're going to give the money back to the public, to the, I don't know who they give it to, like non-profit or something. (indistinct) >> Okay, the odds are dropping. (group talks over each other) That's a good point though >> Actually they might have done that to fend off the criticism of this. But it's really interesting to see the model they have adopted. >> The wildcard in all this, My last word on this is that, if there's a developer shift in how developers and data can come together again, we have conferences around the future of data, Supercloud and meshs versus, you know, how the data world, coding with data, how that evolves will also dictate, 'cause a wild card could be a shift in the landscape around how developers are using either machine learning or AI like techniques to code into their apps, so. >> That's fantastic insight. I can't thank you enough for your time, on the heels of Supercloud 2, really appreciate it. All right, thanks to John and Sarbjeet for the outstanding conversation today. Special thanks to the Palo Alto studio team. My goodness, Anderson, this great backdrop. You guys got it all out here, I'm jealous. And Noah, really appreciate it, Chuck, Andrew Frick and Cameron, Andrew Frick switching, Cameron on the video lake, great job. And Alex Myerson, he's on production, manages the podcast for us, Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and our newsletters. Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE, does some great editing, thanks to all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast, wherever you listen. Publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Want to get in touch, email me directly, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post. And by all means, check out etr.ai. They got really great survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, We'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (electronic music)

>>Oh, welcome back to the Cube here at aws Reinvent 22. As we continue our coverage here, the AWS Global Showcase, the Startup Showcase, John Wall is here hosting for the Cube as we've been here all week. Hope you're enjoying our coverage here. This is day three, by the way. We're wrapping it up shortly with us to talk about what's going on in the, kind of the hotel world in it and what's going on in the cloud, especially at I hg is Eric Norman, head of infrastructure, architecture, and innovation at I H G Hotels and Resorts. Eric, good to see you, >>Sir. Oh, thank you. And thank you for inviting me. Yeah, >>You bet. Glad to have you board here on the queue. First time, I think too, by the way, right? >>It is. And can I just tell you who IHG is >>Real quick? Yeah, wait a second. First I want another rest. I got Introduc to Rod Stuller, who is the Vice president and of Solutions marketing at Aviatrix and Rod. Good to see you, sir. Thanks a lot. Now let's talk about I ih. >>Great. Well, IHGs a a hospitality company, it's been around for 200 years, that has 17 brands globally in over a hundred countries. We sleek, you know, up could up to 888,000 people a night. So it's a pretty large company that we compete with, you know, all the hotel companies globally. >>So let's talk about your, your footprint right now in, in terms of what your needs are, because you've mentioned obviously a lot of, you have a lot of customers needs, you have a lot of internal stakeholder needs. Yeah. So just from that perspective, how are you balancing out, you know, the products you wanna launch as opposed to the, on the development side and the maintenance side? >>Yeah, I mean we, we have focused our, our attention to our, our guests and our hotels globally and, and taking technology and from a foundation, getting it at, at the edge so that way the consumer and the hotel owner can deliver a quality product to a guest experience. You know, we've have moved larger, a large deployment of our mission critical applications over the last five years really, of moving into more SaaS and infrastructure like AWS and GCP and, and leveraging their global scale to be able to deliver at the edge or get closer to the edge. And so we've, you know, I'm pretty sure you've seen, you know, kind of people building, you know, mission critical apps. You know, probably in the last three years it's probably escalating and more of like a hockey stick of moving stuff. I'd love to hear what AVIA is seeing. Oh >>Yeah. Now we're, we're seeing that quite a bit, right? As people move into the cloud, it's now business critical applications that are going there. So good enough isn't good enough anymore, right? It has to be, you know, a powerful capability that's business critical, can support that, give people the ability to troubleshoot it when something goes wrong. And then multi-cloud, you mentioned a couple different cloud companies, a lot of enterprises are moving to multiple clouds and you don't want to have to do it differently in every cloud. You want a infrastructure management layer that allows you to do that across >>Clouds. So how do you go about that, you know, deciding what goes where. I mean, it sounds like a simple question, but, but if you are dealing in a lot of different kinds of environments, different needs and different requirements, whatever, you know, how are you sorting out, delegating, you know, you know, you're, you're you're gonna be working here, you're gonna be >>Working there. Yeah. So we built some standards base that says, you know, certain types of apps, you know, transactional base, you know, go to this cloud provider and data analytics that's gonna go to another, another cloud provider based on our decision of key capability, native capability, and, and also coverage. You know, cuz we are in China, right? You know, you know, I, I've gotta be able to get into China and, and build not only a network that can support that, but also business apps locally to meet, compete with compliance, regulatory type activities. I mean, even in, in the US market, I got, you know, California privacy laws, you know, you have globally, you've gotta deal with getting data applications into compliance for those globally, right? >>Yeah. So, so you got that compliance slash governance Yeah. Issue. Huge issue. Yeah. I would think for you, you gotta decide who's gonna get to what when, and also we have to meet certain regulatory standards as you pointed out. And not just there, but you got European footprint, right? I mean, you're global. Yeah. So, so you know, handling that kind of scope or scale, what kind of nightmares or challenges does that provide you and how's Aviatrix helping you solve >>That? Yeah, in the early days, you know, we were using cloud native, you know, constructs for networking and a little bit of a security type angle to it. What we found was, you know, you can't get the automation you need. You can't get the, the scalability, you know, cuz we're, we're trying to shift left our, you know, our DevOps and our ability to deploy infrastructure. Aviatrix had come in and, and provided a, a solution that gets us there quicker than anybody else. It's allow us to, you know, build a mesh network across all our regions globally. I'm able to deploy, you know, new landing zones or, you know, public cloud fairly quickly with my, you know, networking construct. We also, we found that because we are a multi hybrid cloud, we, we introduced on the edge a a new network. We had to introduce a performance hub architecture that's using Equinix that sits in every region in every public cloud and partner. Cuz all our partners, you know, we, we've moved a lot of stuff to sas. You know, Amadeus is our centralized reservation system. That's our key, you know? Sure. You know, reservation tool, it's so sourced out. I need to bring them in and I need to get data that's closer to where, in a region to where it needs the land so I can process it. Right. >>And it's a big world out there too. I mean, you're, you're not in your head Rod. So talk about if you would share some of the, the aviatrix experience in that regard. When you have a client like this that has these, you know, multinational locations and, and yet you're looking for some consistency and some uniformity. You don't, you know, you can't be reinventing the wheel every time something pops up, right? >>Right. No. And then, and it's about agility and speed and, you know, being able to do it with less people than you used to have to do things, right? You, you want to be able to give the developers what they need when they need it. There was a time when people were going around it, swiping their credit card and, and saying, it doesn't give me what I need. And so cloud is supposed to change that. So we're trying to deliver the ability to do that for the developers a lot faster than had been done in the past. But at the same time, giving the enterprise the controls, the security, the compliance that they need. And sometimes those things got in the way, but now we're building systems that allow that to happen at, at the piece that developers needed to happen. >>But what Rod said about, you know, one of the big things you sparked my thinking is it also, you know, building a overlay of the cloud native construct allows for visibility that, you know, you didn't have, you know, from a developer or even a operations day two operations, now you get that visibility into the network space and controls and management of that space a lot easier now, you know? >>Yeah. I mean, business critical applications, right? People, the people, the business does not care about networking, right? They see it as electricity and if it's down somebody else's problem to fix it. But the people who do need to keep it up, they need the telemetry. They need the ability to understand, are we trending in the wrong direction? Should we be doing something so that we don't get to the point where it goes down? And that's the kind of information that we're providing in this multi-cloud environment. You mentioned Equinix, we, we just have a partnership with Equinix where we're extending the cloud operational model that Aviatrix delivers all the way out to Equinix and that global fabric that you're talking about. So this is allowing the, the comp companies to have that visibility, that operational ability all the way globally. >>Yeah. Because you know, when you start building all these clouds now and multi regions, multiple AZs or different cloud providers or SaaS providers, you're moving data all over the place. And if you, if you don't have a single pane of glass to see that entire network and be able to route stuff accordingly, it's gonna be a zoo. It's not gonna >>Work. We were, I was talking earlier with, with another guest and we were just talking about companies in your case, I, I IHG kind of knowing what you have and it's not like such a basic thing he said, but yeah, you'd be surprised how many people don't know what they have. Oh, yeah. And so they're trying to provide that visibility and, and, and awareness. So, so I'm kind of curious because you were just the next interview up, so sorry Ken, but, but do you know what you have, I mean, are you learning what you have or is how do you identify, prioritize? How valuable is this asset as opposed to this can wait? I mean, is that still an ongoing process for >>You? It, it's definitely an ongoing process. I mean, we've done over the last three years of constantly assessing all our inventory of what we have, making sure we have the right mo roadmaps for each of the apps and products that we have. Cause we've turned to more of a product driven organization and a DevOps and we're, we're moving more and more product teams onto that DevOps process. Yep. So we can shift left a lot of the activities that developer in the past had to go over a fence to ask for help and, and, you know, kind of the automation of the network and the security built in allows us to be able to shift that left. >>Did that, I, you were saying too three years, right? You've been on, on this path Yep. Going back then to 2019 right. Pandemic hits, right. The world changes. How has that affected this three year period for you? And where are you in terms of where you expected to be and, and Yep. And then what's your, what are your headlights seeing down the road as to what your, your eventual journey, how you want that to end? >>I probably, the biggest story that we have a success story is when the pandemic did happen, you know, all our call centers, all agents had to go home. We were able within 30 days be able to bring up remote desktops, you know, workspaces an a uws and give access to globally in China and in Singapore and in the Americas. There's >>No small task there, >>That's for sure. So we built a desktop, certified it, and, and agents were able to answer calls for guests, you know, you know, so it was a huge success to us. Sure. It did slow down. I mean, during the pandemic it did slow us down from what gets migrated. You know, our focus is, you know, again, back to what I was saying earlier is around our guests and our loyalty and, you know, how do we give value back to our hotel owners and our guests? >>And how do you measure that? I mean, how do you know that what you're doing is working with, with that key audience? >>We'd measured by, you know, one occupa >>There so many, how many people do we have in the rooms? Right? But in terms of the interface, in terms of the effectiveness, the applications, in terms of what you're offering. Yeah. >>It gets back to uptime of our systems and you know, being able to deploy an application in multiple regions elevates the availability of the product to our guest. You know, the longer I'm up, the more revenue I can produce. Right. So, you know, so we, we try to, you know, we measure also guest satisfaction at the properties, you know, them using our tech and that kind of stuff to >>Be so you surveying just to find out what, how they feel about, so some, >>Cause we have a lot of tech inside of our hotels that allow for, we have ISG connect, which allows for people to go from one hotel another and not ask for passwords and, you know, that kind of stuff. >>That would not be made by the way. I'd be begging for help. Let's talk about skills, because I hear that a lot. Talk a lot about that this week. Hearing that, that, you know, the advancement of knowledge is obviously a very powerful thing, but it's also a bit of a shortcoming right now in terms of, of having a need for skills and not having that kind of firepower horsepower on your bench. What, what do you see in that regard? And, and first off, what did you see about it? And then I'll follow >>Up with Yeah, I mean, over our journey, it started off where you didn't have the skills, you know, you didn't have the skill from an operations engineering architecture. So we went on a, you know, you know, how do we build training programs? How do we get, you know, tools to, to either virtual training, bringing teachers, we built, you know, daily, our weekly calls where we bring our experts from our vendors in there to be able to ask questions to help engineering people or architecture people or operations to ask questions and get answers. You know, we, we've been on a role of, you know, upscaling over the last three years and we continue to drive that, you know, we have lunch and learns that we bring people to. Yep. You know, and, and we, and we, we ta tailor the, the content for that training based on what we are consuming and what we're using as opposed to just a, you know, a broad stroke of, of public cloud or, it's >>Almost like you don't have to be holistic about it. You just need to, what do you need to know to >>Make >>Them successful, to be better at what you're doing here? Right. Sure. >>And that's been huge. And, >>And yeah, we, and we have a program called ace, which is AVIATRIX certified engineer. And there's a bunch of different types of classes. So if you're a networking person in the past it's like A C C I E, but we have about 18,000 people over the last three years who have gone through that training. One of them. One of them, right? Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and this is not necessarily about aviatrix. What we're doing is trying to give multi-cloud, you know, networking expertise because a lot of the people that we're talking about are coming from the data center world. And networking is so different in the cloud. We're helping them understand it's not as scary as they might think. Right. If your whole career has been networking in the data center and all of a sudden there's this cloud thing that you don't really understand, you need somebody to help you sort of get there. And we're doing that in a multi-cloud way. And we have all kinds of different levels to teach people how to do, do infrastructure as code. That's another thing, you know, data center guys, they never did infrastructure as code. It was, you had to bolt it in and plug stuff in. Right. But now things are being done much faster with infrastructure as code. And we're teaching people how >>To do that. Yeah. I mean, yesterday, one of the keynotes is about the partner in the, the marketplace. And they use the image imagery of, of marathon runner, you know, a marathon runner. Yeah. You could do a marathon by yourself, but if you want to improve and become a, a great marathon runner, you need a coach, you need nutritionist, you need people running with you to, to make that engine go faster a little bit. Yeah, exactly. And you know, having a partner like Aviatrix helps you know the team to be successful. >>Well, it is, it is a marathon, not a sprint. That's for sure. And you've been on this kind of three year jog. You might feel like you've been running a marathon a little bit, but it sounds like you're really off to a great start and, and have a pretty good partnership here. So thank you. Congratulations on that, Eric. Thank you for being with us. And Rod, same to you. Thank you. Appreciate the time here on the AWS Global Showcase. I'm John Wal, you're watching The Cube. We're out in Las Vegas and of course the cube, as you well know, is the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to Las Vegas. The Cube is here, live at the Venetian Expo Center for AWS Reinvent 2022. Amazing attendance. This is day one of our coverage. Lisa Martin here with Day Ante. David is great to see so many people back. We're gonna be talk, we've been having great conversations already. We have a wall to wall coverage for the next three and a half days. When we talk to companies, customers, every company has to be a data company. And one of the things I think we learned in the pandemic is that access to real time data and real time analytics, no longer a nice to have that is a differentiator and a competitive all >>About data. I mean, you know, I love the topic and it's, it's got so many dimensions and such texture, can't get enough of data. >>I know we have a great guest joining us. One of our alumni is back, Evan Kaplan, the CEO of Influx Data. Evan, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome back to the Cube. >>Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. So here >>We are, day one. I was telling you before we went live, we're nice and fresh hosts. Talk to us about what's new at Influxed since the last time we saw you at Reinvent. >>That's great. So first of all, we should acknowledge what's going on here. This is pretty exciting. Yeah, that does really feel like, I know there was a show last year, but this feels like the first post Covid shows a lot of energy, a lot of attention despite a difficult economy. In terms of, you know, you guys were commenting in the lead into Big data. I think, you know, if we were to talk about Big Data five, six years ago, what would we be talking about? We'd been talking about Hadoop, we were talking about Cloudera, we were talking about Hortonworks, we were talking about Big Data Lakes, data stores. I think what's happened is, is this this interesting dynamic of, let's call it if you will, the, the secularization of data in which it breaks into different fields, different, almost a taxonomy. You've got this set of search data, you've got this observability data, you've got graph data, you've got document data and what you're seeing in the market and now you have time series data. >>And what you're seeing in the market is this incredible capability by developers as well and mostly open source dynamic driving this, this incredible capability of developers to assemble data platforms that aren't unicellular, that aren't just built on Hado or Oracle or Postgres or MySQL, but in fact represent different data types. So for us, what we care about his time series, we care about anything that happens in time, where time can be the primary measurement, which if you think about it, is a huge proportion of real data. Cuz when you think about what drives ai, you think about what happened, what happened, what happened, what happened, what's going to happen. That's the functional thing. But what happened is always defined by a period, a measurement, a time. And so what's new for us is we've developed this new open source engine called IOx. And so it's basically a refresh of the whole database, a kilo database that uses Apache Arrow, par K and data fusion and turns it into a super powerful real time analytics platform. It was already pretty real time before, but it's increasingly now and it adds SQL capability and infinite cardinality. And so it handles bigger data sets, but importantly, not just bigger but faster, faster data. So that's primarily what we're talking about to show. >>So how does that affect where you can play in the marketplace? Is it, I mean, how does it affect your total available market? Your great question. Your, your customer opportunities. >>I think it's, it's really an interesting market in that you've got all of these different approaches to database. Whether you take data warehouses from Snowflake or, or arguably data bricks also. And you take these individual database companies like Mongo Influx, Neo Forge, elastic, and people like that. I think the commonality you see across the volume is, is many of 'em, if not all of them, are based on some sort of open source dynamic. So I think that is an in an untractable trend that will continue for on. But in terms of the broader, the broader database market, our total expand, total available tam, lots of these things are coming together in interesting ways. And so the, the, the wave that will ride that we wanna ride, because it's all big data and it's all increasingly fast data and it's all machine learning and AI is really around that measurement issue. That instrumentation the idea that if you're gonna build any sophisticated system, it starts with instrumentation and the journey is defined by instrumentation. So we view ourselves as that instrumentation tooling for understanding complex systems. And how, >>I have to follow quick follow up. Why did you say arguably data bricks? I mean open source ethos? >>Well, I was saying arguably data bricks cuz Spark, I mean it's a great company and it's based on Spark, but there's quite a gap between Spark and what Data Bricks is today. And in some ways data bricks from the outside looking in looks a lot like Snowflake to me looks a lot like a really sophisticated data warehouse with a lot of post-processing capabilities >>And, and with an open source less >>Than a >>Core database. Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah, I totally agree. Okay, thank you for that >>Part that that was not arguably like they're, they're not a good company or >>No, no. They got great momentum and I'm just curious. Absolutely. You know, so, >>So talk a little bit about IOx and, and what it is enabling you guys to achieve from a competitive advantage perspective. The key differentiators give us that scoop. >>So if you think about, so our old storage engine was called tsm, also open sourced, right? And IOx is open sourced and the old storage engine was really built around this time series measurements, particularly metrics, lots of metrics and handling those at scale and making it super easy for developers to use. But, but our old data engine only supported either a custom graphical UI that you'd build yourself on top of it or a dashboarding tool like Grafana or Chronograph or things like that. With IOCs. Two or three interventions were important. One is we now support, we'll support things like Tableau, Microsoft, bi, and so you're taking that same data that was available for instrumentation and now you're using it for business intelligence also. So that became super important and it kind of answers your question about the expanded market expands the market. The second thing is, when you're dealing with time series data, you're dealing with this concept of cardinality, which is, and I don't know if you're familiar with it, but the idea that that it's a multiplication of measurements in a table. And so the more measurements you want over the more series you have, you have this really expanding exponential set that can choke a database off. And the way we've designed IIS to handle what we call infinite cardinality, where you don't even have to think about that design point of view. And then lastly, it's just query performance is dramatically better. And so it's pretty exciting. >>So the unlimited cardinality, basically you could identify relationships between data and different databases. Is that right? Between >>The same database but different measurements, different tables, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. So you can handle, so you could say, I wanna look at the way, the way the noise levels are performed in this room according to 400 different locations on 25 different days, over seven months of the year. And that each one is a measurement. Each one adds to cardinality. And you can say, I wanna search on Tuesdays in December, what the noise level is at 2:21 PM and you get a very quick response. That kind of instrumentation is critical to smarter systems. How are >>You able to process that data at at, in a performance level that doesn't bring the database to its knees? What's the secret sauce behind that? >>It's AUM database. It's built on Parque and Apache Arrow. But it's, but to say it's nice to say without a much longer conversation, it's an architecture that's really built for pulling that kind of data. If you know the data is time series and you're looking for a time measurement, you already have the ability to optimize pretty dramatically. >>So it's, it's that purpose built aspect of it. It's the >>Purpose built aspect. You couldn't take Postgres and do the same >>Thing. Right? Because a lot of vendors say, oh yeah, we have time series now. Yeah. Right. So yeah. Yeah. Right. >>And they >>Do. Yeah. But >>It's not, it's not, the founding of the company came because Paul Dicks was working on Wall Street building time series databases on H base, on MyQ, on other platforms and realize every time we do it, we have to rewrite the code. We build a bunch of application logic to handle all these. We're talking about, we have customers that are adding hundreds of millions to billions of points a second. So you're talking about an ingest level. You know, you think about all those data points, you're talking about ingest level that just doesn't, you know, it just databases aren't designed for that. Right? And so it's not just us, our competitors also build good time series databases. And so the category is really emergent. Yeah, >>Sure. Talk about a favorite customer story they think really articulates the value of what Influx is doing, especially with IOx. >>Yeah, sure. And I love this, I love this story because you know, Tesla may not be in favor because of the latest Elon Musker aids, but, but, but so we've had about a four year relationship with Tesla where they built their power wall technology around recording that, seeing your device, seeing the stuff, seeing the charging on your car. It's all captured in influx databases that are reporting from power walls and mega power packs all over the world. And they report to a central place at, at, at Tesla's headquarters and it reports out to your phone and so you can see it. And what's really cool about this to me is I've got two Tesla cars and I've got a Tesla solar roof tiles. So I watch this date all the time. So it's a great customer story. And actually if you go on our website, you can see I did an hour interview with the engineer that designed the system cuz the system is super impressive and I just think it's really cool. Plus it's, you know, it's all the good green stuff that we really appreciate supporting sustainability, right? Yeah. >>Right, right. Talk about from a, what's in it for me as a customer, what you guys have done, the change to IOCs, what, what are some of the key features of it and the key values in it for customers like Tesla, like other industry customers as well? >>Well, so it's relatively new. It just arrived in our cloud product. So Tesla's not using it today. We have a first set of customers starting to use it. We, the, it's in open source. So it's a very popular project in the open source world. But the key issues are, are really the stuff that we've kind of covered here, which is that a broad SQL environment. So accessing all those SQL developers, the same people who code against Snowflake's data warehouse or data bricks or Postgres, can now can code that data against influx, open up the BI market. It's the cardinality, it's the performance. It's really an architecture. It's the next gen. We've been doing this for six years, it's the next generation of everything. We've seen how you make time series be super performing. And that's only relevant because more and more things are becoming real time as we develop smarter and smarter systems. The journey is pretty clear. You instrument the system, you, you let it run, you watch for anomalies, you correct those anomalies, you re instrument the system. You do that 4 billion times, you have a self-driving car, you do that 55 times, you have a better podcast that is, that is handling its audio better, right? So everything is on that journey of getting smarter and smarter. So >>You guys, you guys the big committers to IOCs, right? Yes. And how, talk about how you support the, develop the surrounding developer community, how you get that flywheel effect going >>First. I mean it's actually actually a really kind of, let's call it, it's more art than science. Yeah. First of all, you you, you come up with an architecture that really resonates for developers. And Paul Ds our founder, really is a developer's developer. And so he started talking about this in the community about an architecture that uses Apache Arrow Parque, which is, you know, the standard now becoming for file formats that uses Apache Arrow for directing queries and things like that and uses data fusion and said what this thing needs is a Columbia database that sits behind all of this stuff and integrates it. And he started talking about it two years ago and then he started publishing in IOCs that commits in the, in GitHub commits. And slowly, but over time in Hacker News and other, and other people go, oh yeah, this is fundamentally right. >>It addresses the problems that people have with things like click cows or plain databases or Coast and they go, okay, this is the right architecture at the right time. Not different than original influx, not different than what Elastic hit on, not different than what Confluent with Kafka hit on and their time is you build an audience of people who are committed to understanding this kind of stuff and they become committers and they become the core. Yeah. And you build out from it. And so super. And so we chose to have an MIT open source license. Yeah. It's not some secondary license competitors can use it and, and competitors can use it against us. Yeah. >>One of the things I know that Influx data talks about is the time to awesome, which I love that, but what does that mean? What is the time to Awesome. Yeah. For developer, >>It comes from that original story where, where Paul would have to write six months of application logic and stuff to build a time series based applications. And so Paul's notion was, and this was based on the original Mongo, which was very successful because it was very easy to use relative to most databases. So Paul developed this commitment, this idea that I quickly joined on, which was, hey, it should be relatively quickly for a developer to build something of import to solve a problem, it should be able to happen very quickly. So it's got a schemaless background so you don't have to know the schema beforehand. It does some things that make it really easy to feel powerful as a developer quickly. And if you think about that journey, if you feel powerful with a tool quickly, then you'll go deeper and deeper and deeper and pretty soon you're taking that tool with you wherever you go, it becomes the tool of choice as you go to that next job or you go to that next application. And so that's a fundamental way we think about it. To be honest with you, we haven't always delivered perfectly on that. It's generally in our dna. So we do pretty well, but I always feel like we can do better. >>So if you were to put a bumper sticker on one of your Teslas about influx data, what would it >>Say? By the way, I'm not rich. It just happened to be that we have two Teslas and we have for a while, we just committed to that. The, the, so ask the question again. Sorry. >>Bumper sticker on influx data. What would it say? How, how would I >>Understand it be time to Awesome. It would be that that phrase his time to Awesome. Right. >>Love that. >>Yeah, I'd love it. >>Excellent time to. Awesome. Evan, thank you so much for joining David, the >>Program. It's really fun. Great thing >>On Evan. Great to, you're on. Haven't Well, great to have you back talking about what you guys are doing and helping organizations like Tesla and others really transform their businesses, which is all about business transformation these days. We appreciate your insights. >>That's great. Thank >>You for our guest and Dave Ante. I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube, the leader in emerging and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back with our next guest.

>> From the CUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the Cube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> A better than expected earnings report in late August got people excited about Snowflake again, but the negative sentiment in the market is weighed heavily on virtually all growth tech stocks and Snowflake is no exception. As we've stressed many times the company's management is on a long term mission to dramatically simplify the way organizations use data. Snowflake is tapping into a multi hundred billion dollar total available market and continues to grow at a rapid pace. In our view, Snowflake is embarking on its third major wave of innovation data apps, while its first and second waves are still bearing significant fruit. Now for short term traders focused on the next 90 or 180 days, that probably doesn't matter. But those taking a longer view are asking, "Should we still be optimistic about the future of this high flyer or is it just another over hyped tech play?" Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. Snowflake's Quarter just ended. And in this breaking analysis we take a look at the most recent survey data from ETR to see what clues and nuggets we can extract to predict the near term future in the long term outlook for Snowflake which is going to announce its earnings at the end of this month. Okay, so you know the story. If you've been investor in Snowflake this year, it's been painful. We said at IPO, "If you really want to own this stock on day one, just hold your nose and buy it." But like most IPOs we said there will be likely a better entry point in the future, and not surprisingly that's been the case. Snowflake IPOed a price of 120, which you couldn't touch on day one unless you got into a friends and family Delio. And if you did, you're still up 5% or so. So congratulations. But at one point last year you were up well over 200%. That's been the nature of this volatile stock, and I certainly can't help you with the timing of the market. But longer term Snowflake is targeting 10 billion in revenue for fiscal year 2028. A big number. Is it achievable? Is it big enough? Tell you what, let's come back to that. Now shorter term, our expert trader and breaking analysis contributor Chip Simonton said he got out of the stock a while ago after having taken a shot at what turned out to be a bear market rally. He pointed out that the stock had been bouncing around the 150 level for the last few months and broke that to the downside last Friday. So he'd expect 150 is where the stock is going to find resistance on the way back up, but there's no sign of support right now. He said maybe at 120, which was the July low and of course the IPO price that we just talked about. Now, perhaps earnings will be a catalyst, when Snowflake announces on November 30th, but until the mentality toward growth tech changes, nothing's likely to change dramatically according to Simonton. So now that we have that out of the way, let's take a look at the spending data for Snowflake in the ETR survey. Here's a chart that shows the time series breakdown of snowflake's net score going back to the October, 2021 survey. Now at that time, Snowflake's net score stood at a robust 77%. And remember, net score is a measure of spending velocity. It's a proprietary network, and ETR derives it from a quarterly survey of IT buyers and asks the respondents, "Are you adopting the platform new? Are you spending 6% or more? Is you're spending flat? Is you're spending down 6% or worse? Or are you leaving the platform decommissioning?" You subtract the percent of customers that are spending less or churning from those that are spending more and adopting or adopting and you get a net score. And that's expressed as a percentage of customers responding. In this chart we show Snowflake's in out of the total survey which ranges... The total survey ranges between 1,200 and 1,400 each quarter. And the very last column... Oh sorry, very last row, we show the number of Snowflake respondents that are coming in the survey from the Fortune 500 and the Global 2000. Those are two very important Snowflake constituencies. Now what this data tells us is that Snowflake exited 2021 with very strong momentum in a net score of 82%, which is off the charts and it was actually accelerating from the previous survey. Now by April that sentiment had flipped and Snowflake came down to earth with a 68% net score. Still highly elevated relative to its peers, but meaningfully down. Why was that? Because we saw a drop in new ads and an increase in flat spend. Then into the July and most recent October surveys, you saw a significant drop in the percentage of customers that were spending more. Now, notably, the percentage of customers who are contemplating adding the platform is actually staying pretty strong, but it is off a bit this past survey. And combined with a slight uptick in planned churn, net score is now down to 60%. That uptick from 0% and 1% and then 3%, it's still small, but that net score at 60% is still 20 percentage points higher than our highly elevated benchmark of 40% as you recall from listening to earlier breaking analysis. That 40% range is we consider a milestone. Anything above that is actually quite strong. But again, Snowflake is down and coming back to churn, while 3% churn is very low, in previous quarters we've seen Snowflake 0% or 1% decommissions. Now the last thing to note in this chart is the meaningful uptick in survey respondents that are citing, they're using the Snowflake platform. That's up to 212 in the survey. So look, it's hard to imagine that Snowflake doesn't feel the softening in the market like everyone else. Snowflake is guiding for around 60% growth in product revenue against the tough compare from a year ago with a 2% operating margin. So like every company, the reaction of the street is going to come down to how accurate or conservative the guide is from their CFO. Now, earlier this year, Snowflake acquired a company called Streamlit for around $800 million. Streamlit is an open source Python library and it makes it easier to build data apps with machine learning, obviously a huge trend. And like Snowflake, generally its focus is on simplifying the complex, in this case making data science easier to integrate into data apps that business people can use. So we were excited this summer in the July ETR survey to see that they added some nice data and pick on Streamlit, which we're showing here in comparison to Snowflake's core business on the left hand side. That's the data warehousing, the Streamlit pieces on the right hand side. And we show again net score over time from the previous survey for Snowflake's core database and data warehouse offering again on the left as compared to a Streamlit on the right. Snowflake's core product had 194 responses in the October, 22 survey, Streamlit had an end of 73, which is up from 52 in the July survey. So significant uptick of people responding that they're doing business in adopting Streamlit. That was pretty impressive to us. And it's hard to see, but the net scores stayed pretty constant for Streamlit at 51%. It was 52% I think in the previous quarter, well over that magic 40% mark. But when you blend it with Snowflake, it does sort of bring things down a little bit. Now there are two key points here. One is that the acquisition seems to have gained exposure right out of the gate as evidenced by the large number of responses. And two, the spending momentum. Again while it's lower than Snowflake overall, and when you blend it with Snowflake it does pull it down, it's very healthy and steady. Now let's do a little pure comparison with some of our favorite names in this space. This chart shows net score or spending velocity in the Y-axis, an overlap or presence, pervasiveness if you will, in the data set on the X-axis. That red dotted line again is that 40% highly elevated net score that we like to talk about. And that table inserted informs us as to how the companies are plotted, where the dots set up, the net score, the ins. And we're comparing a number of database players, although just a caution, Oracle includes all of Oracle including its apps. But we just put it in there for reference because it is the leader in database. Right off the bat, Snowflake jumps out with a net score of 64%. The 60% from the earlier chart, again included Streamlit. So you can see its core database, data warehouse business actually is higher than the total company average that we showed you before 'cause the Streamlit is blended in. So when you separate it out, Streamlit is right on top of data bricks. Isn't that ironic? Only Snowflake and Databricks in this selection of names are above the 40% level. You see Mongo and Couchbase, they know they're solid and Teradata cloud actually showing pretty well compared to some of the earlier survey results. Now let's isolate on the database data platform sector and see how that shapes up. And for this analysis, same XY dimensions, we've added the big giants, AWS and Microsoft and Google. And notice that those three plus Snowflake are just at or above the 40% line. Snowflake continues to lead by a significant margin in spending momentum and it keeps creeping to the right. That's that end that we talked about earlier. Now here's an interesting tidbit. Snowflake is often asked, and I've asked them myself many times, "How are you faring relative to AWS, Microsoft and Google, these big whales with Redshift and Synapse and Big Query?" And Snowflake has been telling folks that 80% of its business comes from AWS. And when Microsoft heard that, they said, "Whoa, wait a minute, Snowflake, let's partner up." 'Cause Microsoft is smart, and they understand that the market is enormous. And if they could do better with Snowflake, one, they may steal some business from AWS. And two, even if Snowflake is winning against some of the Microsoft database products, if it wins on Azure, Microsoft is going to sell more compute and more storage, more AI tools, more other stuff to these customers. Now AWS is really aggressive from a partnering standpoint with Snowflake. They're openly negotiating, not openly, but they're negotiating better prices. They're realizing that when it comes to data, the cheaper that you make the offering, the more people are going to consume. At scale economies and operating leverage are really powerful things at volume that kick in. Now Microsoft, they're coming along, they obviously get it, but Google is seemingly resistant to that type of go to market partnership. Rather than lean into Snowflake as a great partner Google's field force is kind of fighting fashion. Google itself at Cloud next heavily messaged what they call the open data cloud, which is a direct rip off of Snowflake. So what can we say about Google? They continue to be kind of behind the curve when it comes to go to market. Now just a brief aside on the competitive posture. I've seen Slootman, Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake in action with his prior companies and how he depositioned the competition. At Data Domain, he eviscerated a company called Avamar with their, what he called their expensive and slow post process architecture. I think he actually called it garbage, if I recall at one conference I heard him speak at. And that sort of destroyed BMC when he was at ServiceNow, kind of positioning them as the equivalent of the department of motor vehicles. And so it's interesting to hear how Snowflake openly talks about the data platforms of AWS, Microsoft, Google, and data bricks. I'll give you this sort of short bumper sticker. Redshift is just an on-prem database that AWS morphed to the cloud, which by the way is kind of true. They actually did a brilliant job of it, but it's basically a fact. Microsoft Excel, a collection of legacy databases, which also kind of morphed to run in the cloud. And even Big Query, which is considered cloud native by many if not most, is being positioned by Snowflake as originally an on-prem database to support Google's ad business, maybe. And data bricks is for those people smart enough to get it to Berkeley that love complexity. And now Snowflake doesn't, they don't mention Berkeley as far as I know. That's my addition. But you get the point. And the interesting thing about Databricks and Snowflake is a while ago in the cube I said that there was a new workload type emerging around data where you have AWS cloud, Snowflake obviously for the cloud database and Databricks data for the data science and EML, you bring those things together and there's this new workload emerging that's going to be very powerful in the future. And it's interesting to see now the aspirations of all three of these platforms are colliding. That's quite a dynamic, especially when you see both Snowflake and Databricks putting venture money and getting their hooks into the loyalties of the same companies like DBT labs and Calibra. Anyway, Snowflake's posture is that we are the pioneer in cloud native data warehouse, data sharing and now data apps. And our platform is designed for business people that want simplicity. The other guys, yes, they're formidable, but we Snowflake have an architectural lead and of course we run in multiple clouds. So it's pretty strong positioning or depositioning, you have to admit. Now I'm not sure I agree with the big query knockoffs completely. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but snowflake, as we see in the ETR survey data is winning. So in thinking about the longer term future, let's talk about what's different with Snowflake, where it's headed and what the opportunities are for the company. Snowflake put itself on the map by focusing on simplifying data analytics. What's interesting about that is the company's founders are as you probably know from Oracle. And rather than focusing on transactional data, which is Oracle's sweet spot, the stuff they worked on when they were at Oracle, the founder said, "We're going to go somewhere else. We're going to attack the data warehousing problem and the data analytics problem." And they completely re-imagined the database and how it could be applied to solve those challenges and reimagine what was possible if you had virtually unlimited compute and storage capacity. And of course Snowflake became famous for separating the compute from storage and being able to completely shut down compute so you didn't have to pay for it when you're not using it. And the ability to have multiple clusters hit the same data without making endless copies and a consumption/cloud pricing model. And then of course everyone on the planet realized, "Wow, that's a pretty good idea." Every venture capitalist in Silicon Valley has been funding companies to copy that move. And that today has pretty much become mainstream in table stakes. But I would argue that Snowflake not only had the lead, but when you look at how others are approaching this problem, it's not necessarily as clean and as elegant. Some of the startups, the early startups I think get it and maybe had an advantage of starting later, which can be a disadvantage too. But AWS is a good example of what I'm saying here. Is its version of separating compute from storage was an afterthought and it's good, it's... Given what they had it was actually quite clever and customers like it, but it's more of a, "Okay, we're going to tier to storage to lower cost, we're going to sort of dial down the compute not completely, we're not going to shut it off, we're going to minimize the compute required." It's really not true as separation is like for instance Snowflake has. But having said that, we're talking about competitors with lots of resources and cohort offerings. And so I don't want to make this necessarily all about the product, but all things being equal architecture matters, okay? So that's the cloud S-curve, the first one we're showing. Snowflake's still on that S-curve, and in and of itself it's got legs, but it's not what's going to power the company to 10 billion. The next S-curve we denote is the multi-cloud in the middle. And now while 80% of Snowflake's revenue is AWS, Microsoft is ramping up and Google, well, we'll see. But the interesting part of that curve is data sharing, and this idea of data clean rooms. I mean it really should be called the data sharing curve, but I have my reasons for calling it multi-cloud. And this is all about network effects and data gravity, and you're seeing this play out today, especially in industries like financial services and healthcare and government that are highly regulated verticals where folks are super paranoid about compliance. There not going to share data if they're going to get sued for it, if they're going to be in the front page of the Wall Street Journal for some kind of privacy breach. And what Snowflake has done is said, "Put all the data in our cloud." Now, of course now that triggers a lot of people because it's a walled garden, okay? It is. That's the trade off. It's not the Wild West, it's not Windows, it's Mac, it's more controlled. But the idea is that as different parts of the organization or even partners begin to share data that they need, it's got to be governed, it's got to be secure, it's got to be compliant, it's got to be trusted. So Snowflake introduced the idea of, they call these things stable edges. I think that's the term that they use. And they track a metric around stable edges. And so a stable edge, or think of it as a persistent edge is an ongoing relationship between two parties that last for some period of time, more than a month. It's not just a one shot deal, one a done type of, "Oh guys shared it for a day, done." It sent you an FTP, it's done. No, it's got to have trajectory over time. Four weeks or six weeks or some period of time that's meaningful. And that metric is growing. Now I think sort of a different metric that they track. I think around 20% of Snowflake customers are actively sharing data today and then they track the number of those edge relationships that exist. So that's something that's unique. Because again, most data sharing is all about making copies of data. That's great for storage companies, it's bad for auditors, and it's bad for compliance officers. And that trend is just starting out, that middle S-curve, it's going to kind of hit the base of that steep part of the S-curve and it's going to have legs through this decade we think. And then finally the third wave that we show here is what we call super cloud. That's why I called it multi-cloud before, so it could invoke super cloud. The idea that you've built a PAS layer that is purpose built for a specific objective, and in this case it's building data apps that are cloud native, shareable and governed. And is a long-term trend that's going to take some time to develop. I mean, application development platforms can take five to 10 years to mature and gain significant adoption, but this one's unique. This is a critical play for Snowflake. If it's going to compete with the big cloud players, it has to have an app development framework like Snowpark. It has to accommodate new data types like transactional data. That's why it announced this thing called UniStore last June, Snowflake a summit. And the pattern that's forming here is Snowflake is building layer upon layer with its architecture at the core. It's not currently anyway, it's not going out and saying, "All right, we're going to buy a company that's got to another billion dollars in revenue and that's how we're going to get to 10 billion." So it's not buying its way into new markets through revenue. It's actually buying smaller companies that can complement Snowflake and that it can turn into revenue for growth that fit in to the data cloud. Now as to the 10 billion by fiscal year 28, is that achievable? That's the question. Yeah, I think so. Would the momentum resources go to market product and management prowess that Snowflake has? Yes, it's definitely achievable. And one could argue to $10 billion is too conservative. Indeed, Snowflake CFO, Mike Scarpelli will fully admit his forecaster built on existing offerings. He's not including revenue as I understand it from all the new stuff that's in the pipeline because he doesn't know what it's going to look like. He doesn't know what the adoption is going to look like. He doesn't have data on that adoption, not just yet anyway. And now of course things can change quite dramatically. It's possible that is forecast for existing businesses don't materialize or competition picks them off or a company like Databricks actually is able in the longer term replicate the functionality of Snowflake with open source technologies, which would be a very competitive source of innovation. But in our view, there's plenty of room for growth, the market is enormous and the real key is, can and will Snowflake deliver on the promises of simplifying data? Of course we've heard this before from data warehouse, the data mars and data legs and master data management and ETLs and data movers and data copiers and Hadoop and a raft of technologies that have not lived up to expectations. And we've also, by the way, seen some tremendous successes in the software business with the likes of ServiceNow and Salesforce. So will Snowflake be the next great software name and hit that 10 billion magic mark? I think so. Let's reconnect in 2028 and see. Okay, we'll leave it there today. I want to thank Chip Simonton for his input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our Editor in Chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Check it out for all the news. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch David.vallante@siliconangle.com. DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. And please do check out etr.ai, they've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis. (upbeat music)

(atmospheric music) >> Welcome to theCUBE Coverage of Data Citizens 2022 Collibra's Customer event. My name is Dave Vellante. With us is Kirk Haslbeck, who's the Vice President of Data Quality of Collibra. Kirk, good to see you, welcome. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. Excited to be here. >> You bet. Okay, we're going to discuss data quality, observability. It's a hot trend right now. You founded a data quality company, OwlDQ, and it was acquired by Collibra last year. Congratulations. And now you lead data quality at Collibra. So we're hearing a lot about data quality right now. Why is it such a priority? Take us through your thoughts on that. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely exciting times for data quality which you're right, has been around for a long time. So why now? And why is it so much more exciting than it used to be? I think it's a bit stale, but we all know that companies use more data than ever before, and the variety has changed and the volume has grown. And while I think that remains true there are a couple other hidden factors at play that everyone's so interested in as to why this is becoming so important now. And I guess you could kind of break this down simply and think about if Dave you and I were going to build a new healthcare application and monitor the heartbeat of individuals, imagine if we get that wrong, what the ramifications could be, what those incidents would look like. Or maybe better yet, we try to build a new trading algorithm with a crossover strategy where the 50 day crosses the 10 day average. And imagine if the data underlying the inputs to that is incorrect. We will probably have major financial ramifications in that sense. So, kind of starts there, where everybody's realizing that we're all data companies, and if we are using bad data we're likely making incorrect business decisions. But I think there's kind of two other things at play. I bought a car not too long ago and my dad called and said, "How many cylinders does it have?" And I realized in that moment, I might have failed him cause I didn't know. And I used to ask those types of questions about any lock breaks and cylinders, and if it's manual or automatic. And I realized, I now just buy a car that I hope works. And it's so complicated with all the computer chips. I really don't know that much about it. And that's what's happening with data. We're just loading so much of it. And it's so complex that the way companies consume them in the IT function is that they bring in a lot of data and then they syndicate it out to the business. And it turns out that the individuals loading and consuming all of this data for the company actually may not know that much about the data itself and that's not even their job anymore. So, we'll talk more about that in a minute, but that's really what's setting the foreground for this observability play and why everybody's so interested. It's because we're becoming less close to the intricacies of the data and we just expect it to always be there and be correct. >> You know, the other thing too about data quality, and for years we did the MIT, CDO, IQ event. We didn't do it last year at COVID, messed everything up. But the observation I would make there, your thoughts is, data quality used to be information quality, used to be this back office function, and then it became sort of front office with financial services, and government and healthcare, these highly regulated industries. And then the whole chief data officer thing happened and people were realizing, well they sort of flipped the bit from sort of a data as a risk to data as an asset. And now as we say, we're going to talk about observability. And so it's really become front and center, just the whole quality issue because data's so fundamental, hasn't it? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let's imagine we pull up our phones right now and I go to my favorite stock ticker app, and I check out the Nasdaq market cap. I really have no idea if that's the correct number. I know it's a number, it looks large, it's in a numeric field. And that's kind of what's going on. There's so many numbers and they're coming from all of these different sources, and data providers, and they're getting consumed and passed along. But there isn't really a way to tactically put controls on every number and metric across every field we plan to monitor, but with the scale that we've achieved in early days, even before Collibra. And what's been so exciting is, we have these types of observation techniques, these data monitors that can actually track past performance of every field at scale. And why that's so interesting, and why I think the CDO is listening right intently nowadays to this topic is, so maybe we could surface all of these problems with the right solution of data observability and with the right scale, and then just be alerted on breaking trends. So we're sort of shifting away from this world of must write a condition and then when that condition breaks that was always known as a break record. But what about breaking trends and root cause analysis? And is it possible to do that with less human intervention? And so I think most people are seeing now that it's going to have to be a software tool and a computer system. It's not ever going to be based on one or two domain experts anymore. >> So how does data observability relate to data quality? Are they sort of two sides of the same coin? Are they cousins? What's your perspective on that? >> Yeah, it's super interesting. It's an emerging market. So the language is changing, a lot of the topic and areas changing. The way that I like to say it or break it down because the lingo is constantly moving, as a target on the space is really breaking records versus breaking trends. And I could write a condition when this thing happens it's wrong, and when it doesn't it's correct. Or I could look for a trend and I'll give you a good example. Everybody's talking about fresh data and stale data, and why would that matter? Well, if your data never arrived, or only part of it arrived, or didn't arrive on time, it's likely stale, and there will not be a condition that you could write that would show you all the good and the bads. That was kind of your traditional approach of data quality break records. But your modern day approach is you lost a significant portion of your data, or it did not arrive on time to make that decision accurately on time. And that's a hidden concern. Some people call this freshness, we call it stale data. But it all points to the same idea of the thing that you're observing may not be a data quality condition anymore. It may be a breakdown in the data pipeline. And with thousands of data pipelines in play for every company out there, there's more than a couple of these happening every day. >> So what's the Collibra angle on all this stuff? Made the acquisition, you got data quality, observability coming together. You guys have a lot of expertise in this area, but you hear providence of data. You just talked about stale data, the whole trend toward realtime. How is Collibra approaching the problem and what's unique about your approach? >> Well I think where we're fortunate is with our background. Myself and team, we sort of lived this problem for a long time in the Wall Street days about a decade ago. And we saw it from many different angles. And what we came up with, before it was called data observability or reliability, was basically the underpinnings of that. So we're a little bit ahead of the curve there when most people evaluate our solution. It's more advanced than some of the observation techniques that currently exist. But we've also always covered data quality and we believe that people want to know more, they need more insights. And they want to see break records and breaking trends together, so they can correlate the root cause. And we hear that all the time. "I have so many things going wrong just show me the big picture. Help me find the thing that if I were to fix it today would make the most impact." So we're really focused on root cause analysis, business impact, connecting it with lineage and catalog metadata. And as that grows you can actually achieve total data governance. At this point with the acquisition of what was a Lineage company years ago, and then my company OwlDQ, now Collibra Data Quality. Collibra may be the best positioned for total data governance and intelligence in the space. >> Well, you mentioned financial services a couple of times and some examples, remember the flash crash in 2010. Nobody had any idea what that was. They would just say, "Oh, it's a glitch." So they didn't understand the root cause of it. So this is a really interesting topic to me. So we know at Data Citizens 22 that you're announcing, you got to announce new products, right? It is your yearly event. What's new? Give us a sense as to what products are coming out but specifically around data quality and observability. >> Absolutely. There's this, there's always a next thing on the forefront. And the one right now is these hyperscalers in the cloud. So you have databases like Snowflake and BigQuery, and Databricks, Delta Lake and SQL Pushdown. And ultimately what that means is a lot of people are storing in loading data even faster in a SaaS like model. And we've started to hook into these databases, and while we've always worked with the same databases in the past they're supported today. We're doing something called Native Database pushdown, where the entire compute and data activity happens in the database. And why that is so interesting and powerful now? Is everyone's concerned with something called Egress. Did my data that I've spent all this time and money with my security team securing ever leave my hands, did it ever leave my secure VPC as they call it? And with these native integrations that we're building and about to unveil here as kind of a sneak peak for next week at Data Citizens, we're now doing all compute and data operations in databases like Snowflake. And what that means is with no install and no configuration you could log into the Collibra data quality app and have all of your data quality running inside the database that you've probably already picked as your go forward team selection secured database of choice. So we're really excited about that. And I think if you look at the whole landscape of network cost, egress cost, data storage and compute, what people are realizing is it's extremely efficient to do it in the way that we're about to release here next week. >> So this is interesting because what you just described, you mentioned Snowflake, you mentioned Google, oh actually you mentioned yeah, Databricks. You know, Snowflake has the data cloud. If you put everything in the data cloud, okay, you're cool. But then Google's got the open data cloud. If you heard, Google next. And now Databricks doesn't call it the data cloud, but they have like the open source data cloud. So you have all these different approaches and there's really no way, up until now I'm hearing, to really understand the relationships between all those and have confidence across, it's like yamarket AMI, you should just be a note on the mesh. I don't care if it's a data warehouse or a data lake, or where it comes from, but it's a point on that mesh and I need tooling to be able to have confidence that my data is governed and has the proper lineage, providence. And that's what you're bringing to the table. Is that right? Did I get that right? >> Yeah, that's right. And it's, for us, it's not that we haven't been working with those great cloud databases, but it's the fact that we can send them the instructions now we can send them the operating ability to crunch all of the calculations, the governance, the quality, and get the answers. And what that's doing, it's basically zero network cost, zero egress cost, zero latency of time. And so when you were to log into BigQuery tomorrow using our tool, or say Snowflake for example, you have instant data quality metrics, instant profiling, instant lineage in access, privacy controls, things of that nature that just become less onerous. What we're seeing is there's so much technology out there just like all of the major brands that you mentioned but how do we make it easier? The future is about less clicks, faster time to value, faster scale, and eventually lower cost. And we think that this positions us to be the leader there. >> I love this example because, we've got talks about well the cloud guys you're going to own the world. And of course now we're seeing that the ecosystem is finding so much white space to add value connect across cloud. Sometimes we call it super cloud and so, or inter clouding. Alright, Kirk, give us your final thoughts on the trends that we've talked about and data Citizens 22. >> Absolutely. Well I think, one big trend is discovery and classification. Seeing that across the board, people used to know it was a zip code and nowadays with the amount of data that's out there they want to know where everything is, where their sensitive data is, if it's redundant, tell me everything inside of three to five seconds. And with that comes, they want to know in all of these hyperscale databases how fast they can get controls and insights out of their tools. So I think we're going to see more one click solutions, more SaaS based solutions, and solutions that hopefully prove faster time to value on all of these modern cloud platforms. >> Excellent. All right, Kirk Haslbeck, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and previewing Data Citizens 22. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. >> You're welcome. All right. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more coverage from theCUBE. (atmospheric music)

>>Collibra is a company that was founded in 2008 right before the so-called modern big data era kicked into high gear. The company was one of the first to focus its business on data governance. Now, historically, data governance and data quality initiatives, they were back office functions and they were largely confined to regulatory regulated industries that had to comply with public policy mandates. But as the cloud went mainstream, the tech giants showed us how valuable data could become and the value proposition for data quality and trust. It evolved from primarily a compliance driven issue to becoming a lynchpin of competitive advantage. But data in the decade of the 2010s was largely about getting the technology to work. You had these highly centralized technical teams that were formed and they had hyper specialized skills to develop data architectures and processes to serve the myriad data needs of organizations. >>And it resulted in a lot of frustration with data initiatives for most organizations that didn't have the resources of the cloud guys and the social media giants to really attack their data problems and turn data into gold. This is why today for example, this quite a bit of momentum to rethinking monolithic data architectures. You see, you hear about initiatives like data mesh and the idea of data as a product. They're gaining traction as a way to better serve the the data needs of decentralized business Uni users, you hear a lot about data democratization. So these decentralization efforts around data, they're great, but they create a new set of problems. Specifically, how do you deliver like a self-service infrastructure to business users and domain experts? Now the cloud is definitely helping with that, but also how do you automate governance? This becomes especially tricky as protecting data privacy has become more and more important. >>In other words, while it's enticing to experiment and run fast and loose with data initiatives kinda like the Wild West, to find new veins of gold, it has to be done responsibly. As such, the idea of data governance has had to evolve to become more automated. And intelligence governance and data lineage is still fundamental to ensuring trust as data. It moves like water through an organization. No one is gonna use data that isn't trusted. Metadata has become increasingly important for data discovery and data classification. As data flows through an organization, the continuously ability to check for data flaws and automating that data quality, they become a functional requirement of any modern data management platform. And finally, data privacy has become a critical adjacency to cyber security. So you can see how data governance has evolved into a much richer set of capabilities than it was 10 or 15 years ago. >>Hello and welcome to the Cube's coverage of Data Citizens made possible by Calibra, a leader in so-called Data intelligence and the host of Data Citizens 2022, which is taking place in San Diego. My name is Dave Ante and I'm one of the hosts of our program, which is running in parallel to data citizens. Now at the Cube we like to say we extract the signal from the noise, and over the, the next couple of days, we're gonna feature some of the themes from the keynote speakers at Data Citizens and we'll hear from several of the executives. Felix Von Dala, who is the co-founder and CEO of Collibra, will join us along with one of the other founders of Collibra, Stan Christians, who's gonna join my colleague Lisa Martin. I'm gonna also sit down with Laura Sellers, she's the Chief Product Officer at Collibra. We'll talk about some of the, the announcements and innovations they're making at the event, and then we'll dig in further to data quality with Kirk Hasselbeck. >>He's the vice president of Data quality at Collibra. He's an amazingly smart dude who founded Owl dq, a company that he sold to Col to Collibra last year. Now many companies, they didn't make it through the Hado era, you know, they missed the industry waves and they became Driftwood. Collibra, on the other hand, has evolved its business. They've leveraged the cloud, expanded its product portfolio, and leaned in heavily to some major partnerships with cloud providers, as well as receiving a strategic investment from Snowflake earlier this year. So it's a really interesting story that we're thrilled to be sharing with you. Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoy the program. >>Last year, the Cube Covered Data Citizens Collibra's customer event. And the premise that we put forth prior to that event was that despite all the innovation that's gone on over the last decade or more with data, you know, starting with the Hado movement, we had data lakes, we'd spark the ascendancy of programming languages like Python, the introduction of frameworks like TensorFlow, the rise of ai, low code, no code, et cetera. Businesses still find it's too difficult to get more value from their data initiatives. And we said at the time, you know, maybe it's time to rethink data innovation. While a lot of the effort has been focused on, you know, more efficiently storing and processing data, perhaps more energy needs to go into thinking about the people and the process side of the equation, meaning making it easier for domain experts to both gain insights for data, trust the data, and begin to use that data in new ways, fueling data, products, monetization and insights data citizens 2022 is back and we're pleased to have Felix Van Dema, who is the founder and CEO of Collibra. He's on the cube or excited to have you, Felix. Good to see you again. >>Likewise Dave. Thanks for having me again. >>You bet. All right, we're gonna get the update from Felix on the current data landscape, how he sees it, why data intelligence is more important now than ever and get current on what Collibra has been up to over the past year and what's changed since Data Citizens 2021. And we may even touch on some of the product news. So Felix, we're living in a very different world today with businesses and consumers. They're struggling with things like supply chains, uncertain economic trends, and we're not just snapping back to the 2010s. That's clear, and that's really true as well in the world of data. So what's different in your mind, in the data landscape of the 2020s from the previous decade, and what challenges does that bring for your customers? >>Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think you said it well, Dave, and and the intro that that rising complexity and fragmentation in the broader data landscape, that hasn't gotten any better over the last couple of years. When when we talk to our customers, that level of fragmentation, the complexity, how do we find data that we can trust, that we know we can use has only gotten kinda more, more difficult. So that trend that's continuing, I think what is changing is that trend has become much more acute. Well, the other thing we've seen over the last couple of years is that the level of scrutiny that organizations are under respect to data, as data becomes more mission critical, as data becomes more impactful than important, the level of scrutiny with respect to privacy, security, regulatory compliance, as only increasing as well, which again, is really difficult in this environment of continuous innovation, continuous change, continuous growing complexity and fragmentation. >>So it's become much more acute. And, and to your earlier point, we do live in a different world and and the the past couple of years we could probably just kind of brute for it, right? We could focus on, on the top line. There was enough kind of investments to be, to be had. I think nowadays organizations are focused or are, are, are, are, are, are in a very different environment where there's much more focus on cost control, productivity, efficiency, How do we truly get value from that data? So again, I think it just another incentive for organization to now truly look at data and to scale it data, not just from a a technology and infrastructure perspective, but how do you actually scale data from an organizational perspective, right? You said at the the people and process, how do we do that at scale? And that's only, only only becoming much more important. And we do believe that the, the economic environment that we find ourselves in today is gonna be catalyst for organizations to really dig out more seriously if, if, if, if you will, than they maybe have in the have in the best. >>You know, I don't know when you guys founded Collibra, if, if you had a sense as to how complicated it was gonna get, but you've been on a mission to really address these problems from the beginning. How would you describe your, your, your mission and what are you doing to address these challenges? >>Yeah, absolutely. We, we started Colli in 2008. So in some sense and the, the last kind of financial crisis, and that was really the, the start of Colli where we found product market fit, working with large finance institutions to help them cope with the increasing compliance requirements that they were faced with because of the, of the financial crisis and kind of here we are again in a very different environment, of course 15 years, almost 15 years later. But data only becoming more important. But our mission to deliver trusted data for every user, every use case and across every source, frankly, has only become more important. So what has been an incredible journey over the last 14, 15 years, I think we're still relatively early in our mission to again, be able to provide everyone, and that's why we call it data citizens. We truly believe that everyone in the organization should be able to use trusted data in an easy, easy matter. That mission is is only becoming more important, more relevant. We definitely have a lot more work ahead of us because we are still relatively early in that, in that journey. >>Well, that's interesting because, you know, in my observation it takes seven to 10 years to actually build a company and then the fact that you're still in the early days is kind of interesting. I mean, you, Collibra's had a good 12 months or so since we last spoke at Data Citizens. Give us the latest update on your business. What do people need to know about your, your current momentum? >>Yeah, absolutely. Again, there's, there's a lot of tail organizations that are only maturing the data practices and we've seen it kind of transform or, or, or influence a lot of our business growth that we've seen, broader adoption of the platform. We work at some of the largest organizations in the world where it's Adobe, Heineken, Bank of America, and many more. We have now over 600 enterprise customers, all industry leaders and every single vertical. So it's, it's really exciting to see that and continue to partner with those organizations. On the partnership side, again, a lot of momentum in the org in, in the, in the markets with some of the cloud partners like Google, Amazon, Snowflake, data bricks and, and others, right? As those kind of new modern data infrastructures, modern data architectures that are definitely all moving to the cloud, a great opportunity for us, our partners and of course our customers to help them kind of transition to the cloud even faster. >>And so we see a lot of excitement and momentum there within an acquisition about 18 months ago around data quality, data observability, which we believe is an enormous opportunity. Of course, data quality isn't new, but I think there's a lot of reasons why we're so excited about quality and observability now. One is around leveraging ai, machine learning, again to drive more automation. And the second is that those data pipelines that are now being created in the cloud, in these modern data architecture arch architectures, they've become mission critical. They've become real time. And so monitoring, observing those data pipelines continuously has become absolutely critical so that they're really excited about about that as well. And on the organizational side, I'm sure you've heard a term around kind of data mesh, something that's gaining a lot of momentum, rightfully so. It's really the type of governance that we always believe. Then federated focused on domains, giving a lot of ownership to different teams. I think that's the way to scale data organizations. And so that aligns really well with our vision and, and from a product perspective, we've seen a lot of momentum with our customers there as well. >>Yeah, you know, a couple things there. I mean, the acquisition of i l dq, you know, Kirk Hasselbeck and, and their team, it's interesting, you know, the whole data quality used to be this back office function and, and really confined to highly regulated industries. It's come to the front office, it's top of mind for chief data officers, data mesh. You mentioned you guys are a connective tissue for all these different nodes on the data mesh. That's key. And of course we see you at all the shows. You're, you're a critical part of many ecosystems and you're developing your own ecosystem. So let's chat a little bit about the, the products. We're gonna go deeper in into products later on at, at Data Citizens 22, but we know you're debuting some, some new innovations, you know, whether it's, you know, the, the the under the covers in security, sort of making data more accessible for people just dealing with workflows and processes as you talked about earlier. Tell us a little bit about what you're introducing. >>Yeah, absolutely. We're super excited, a ton of innovation. And if we think about the big theme and like, like I said, we're still relatively early in this, in this journey towards kind of that mission of data intelligence that really bolts and compelling mission, either customers are still start, are just starting on that, on that journey. We wanna make it as easy as possible for the, for our organization to actually get started because we know that's important that they do. And for our organization and customers that have been with us for some time, there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity to kind of expand the platform further. And again, to make it easier for really to, to accomplish that mission and vision around that data citizen that everyone has access to trustworthy data in a very easy, easy way. So that's really the theme of a lot of the innovation that we're driving. >>A lot of kind of ease of adoption, ease of use, but also then how do we make sure that lio becomes this kind of mission critical enterprise platform from a security performance architecture scale supportability that we're truly able to deliver that kind of an enterprise mission critical platform. And so that's the big theme from an innovation perspective, From a product perspective, a lot of new innovation that we're really excited about. A couple of highlights. One is around data marketplace. Again, a lot of our customers have plans in that direction, how to make it easy. How do we make, how do we make available to true kind of shopping experience that anybody in your organization can, in a very easy search first way, find the right data product, find the right dataset, that data can then consume usage analytics. How do you, how do we help organizations drive adoption, tell them where they're working really well and where they have opportunities homepages again to, to make things easy for, for people, for anyone in your organization to kind of get started with ppia, you mentioned workflow designer, again, we have a very powerful enterprise platform. >>One of our key differentiators is the ability to really drive a lot of automation through workflows. And now we provided a new low code, no code kind of workflow designer experience. So, so really customers can take it to the next level. There's a lot more new product around K Bear Protect, which in partnership with Snowflake, which has been a strategic investor in kib, focused on how do we make access governance easier? How do we, how do we, how are we able to make sure that as you move to the cloud, things like access management, masking around sensitive data, PII data is managed as much more effective, effective rate, really excited about that product. There's more around data quality. Again, how do we, how do we get that deployed as easily and quickly and widely as we can? Moving that to the cloud has been a big part of our strategy. >>So we launch more data quality cloud product as well as making use of those, those native compute capabilities in platforms like Snowflake, Data, Bricks, Google, Amazon, and others. And so we are bettering a capability, a capability that we call push down. So actually pushing down the computer and data quality, the monitoring into the underlying platform, which again, from a scale performance and ease of use perspective is gonna make a massive difference. And then more broadly, we, we talked a little bit about the ecosystem. Again, integrations, we talk about being able to connect to every source. Integrations are absolutely critical and we're really excited to deliver new integrations with Snowflake, Azure and Google Cloud storage as well. So there's a lot coming out. The, the team has been work at work really hard and we are really, really excited about what we are coming, what we're bringing to markets. >>Yeah, a lot going on there. I wonder if you could give us your, your closing thoughts. I mean, you, you talked about, you know, the marketplace, you know, you think about data mesh, you think of data as product, one of the key principles you think about monetization. This is really different than what we've been used to in data, which is just getting the technology to work has been been so hard. So how do you see sort of the future and, you know, give us the, your closing thoughts please? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think we we're really at this pivotal moment, and I think you said it well. We, we all know the constraint and the challenges with data, how to actually do data at scale. And while we've seen a ton of innovation on the infrastructure side, we fundamentally believe that just getting a faster database is important, but it's not gonna fully solve the challenges and truly kind of deliver on the opportunity. And that's why now is really the time to deliver this data intelligence vision, this data intelligence platform. We are still early, making it as easy as we can. It's kind of, of our, it's our mission. And so I'm really, really excited to see what we, what we are gonna, how the marks gonna evolve over the next, next few quarters and years. I think the trend is clearly there when we talk about data mesh, this kind of federated approach folks on data products is just another signal that we believe that a lot of our organization are now at the time. >>The understanding need to go beyond just the technology. I really, really think about how do we actually scale data as a business function, just like we've done with it, with, with hr, with, with sales and marketing, with finance. That's how we need to think about data. I think now is the time given the economic environment that we are in much more focus on control, much more focused on productivity efficiency and now's the time. We need to look beyond just the technology and infrastructure to think of how to scale data, how to manage data at scale. >>Yeah, it's a new era. The next 10 years of data won't be like the last, as I always say. Felix, thanks so much and good luck in, in San Diego. I know you're gonna crush it out there. >>Thank you Dave. >>Yeah, it's a great spot for an in-person event and, and of course the content post event is gonna be available@collibra.com and you can of course catch the cube coverage@thecube.net and all the news@siliconangle.com. This is Dave Valante for the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>Hi, I'm Jay from Collibra's Data Office. Today I want to talk to you about Collibra's data intelligence cloud. We often say Collibra is a single system of engagement for all of your data. Now, when I say data, I mean data in the broadest sense of the word, including reference and metadata. Think of metrics, reports, APIs, systems, policies, and even business processes that produce or consume data. Now, the beauty of this platform is that it ensures all of your users have an easy way to find, understand, trust, and access data. But how do you get started? Well, here are seven steps to help you get going. One, start with the data. What's data intelligence? Without data leverage the Collibra data catalog to automatically profile and classify your enterprise data wherever that data lives, databases, data lakes or data warehouses, whether on the cloud or on premise. >>Two, you'll then wanna organize the data and you'll do that with data communities. This can be by department, find a business or functional team, however your organization organizes work and accountability. And for that you'll establish community owners, communities, make it easy for people to navigate through the platform, find the data and will help create a sense of belonging for users. An important and related side note here, we find it's typical in many organizations that data is thought of is just an asset and IT and data offices are viewed as the owners of it and who are really the central teams performing analytics as a service provider to the enterprise. We believe data is more than an asset, it's a true product that can be converted to value. And that also means establishing business ownership of data where that strategy and ROI come together with subject matter expertise. >>Okay, three. Next, back to those communities there, the data owners should explain and define their data, not just the tables and columns, but also the related business terms, metrics and KPIs. These objects we call these assets are typically organized into business glossaries and data dictionaries. I definitely recommend starting with the topics that are most important to the business. Four, those steps that enable you and your users to have some fun with it. Linking everything together builds your knowledge graph and also known as a metadata graph by linking or relating these assets together. For example, a data set to a KPI to a report now enables your users to see what we call the lineage diagram that visualizes where the data in your dashboards actually came from and what the data means and who's responsible for it. Speaking of which, here's five. Leverage the calibra trusted business reporting solution on the marketplace, which comes with workflows for those owners to certify their reports, KPIs, and data sets. >>This helps them force their trust in their data. Six, easy to navigate dashboards or landing pages right in your platform for your company's business processes are the most effective way for everyone to better understand and take action on data. Here's a pro tip, use the dashboard design kit on the marketplace to help you build compelling dashboards. Finally, seven, promote the value of this to your users and be sure to schedule enablement office hours and new employee onboarding sessions to get folks excited about what you've built and implemented. Better yet, invite all of those community and data owners to these sessions so that they can show off the value that they've created. Those are my seven tips to get going with Collibra. I hope these have been useful. For more information, be sure to visit collibra.com. >>Welcome to the Cube's coverage of Data Citizens 2022 Collibra's customer event. My name is Dave Valante. With us is Kirk Hasselbeck, who's the vice president of Data Quality of Collibra Kirk, good to see you. Welcome. >>Thanks for having me, Dave. Excited to be here. >>You bet. Okay, we're gonna discuss data quality observability. It's a hot trend right now. You founded a data quality company, OWL dq, and it was acquired by Collibra last year. Congratulations. And now you lead data quality at Collibra. So we're hearing a lot about data quality right now. Why is it such a priority? Take us through your thoughts on that. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's definitely exciting times for data quality, which you're right, has been around for a long time. So why now and why is it so much more exciting than it used to be? I think it's a bit stale, but we all know that companies use more data than ever before and the variety has changed and the volume has grown. And, and while I think that remains true, there are a couple other hidden factors at play that everyone's so interested in as, as to why this is becoming so important now. And, and I guess you could kind of break this down simply and think about if Dave, you and I were gonna build, you know, a new healthcare application and monitor the heartbeat of individuals, imagine if we get that wrong, you know, what the ramifications could be, what, what those incidents would look like, or maybe better yet, we try to build a, a new trading algorithm with a crossover strategy where the 50 day crosses the, the 10 day average. >>And imagine if the data underlying the inputs to that is incorrect. We will probably have major financial ramifications in that sense. So, you know, it kind of starts there where everybody's realizing that we're all data companies and if we are using bad data, we're likely making incorrect business decisions. But I think there's kind of two other things at play. You know, I, I bought a car not too long ago and my dad called and said, How many cylinders does it have? And I realized in that moment, you know, I might have failed him because, cause I didn't know. And, and I used to ask those types of questions about any lock brakes and cylinders and, and you know, if it's manual or, or automatic and, and I realized I now just buy a car that I hope works. And it's so complicated with all the computer chips, I, I really don't know that much about it. >>And, and that's what's happening with data. We're just loading so much of it. And it's so complex that the way companies consume them in the IT function is that they bring in a lot of data and then they syndicate it out to the business. And it turns out that the, the individuals loading and consuming all of this data for the company actually may not know that much about the data itself, and that's not even their job anymore. So we'll talk more about that in a minute, but that's really what's setting the foreground for this observability play and why everybody's so interested. It, it's because we're becoming less close to the intricacies of the data and we just expect it to always be there and be correct. >>You know, the other thing too about data quality, and for years we did the MIT CDO IQ event, we didn't do it last year, Covid messed everything up. But the observation I would make there thoughts is, is it data quality? Used to be information quality used to be this back office function, and then it became sort of front office with financial services and government and healthcare, these highly regulated industries. And then the whole chief data officer thing happened and people were realizing, well, they sort of flipped the bit from sort of a data as a, a risk to data as a, as an asset. And now as we say, we're gonna talk about observability. And so it's really become front and center just the whole quality issue because data's so fundamental, hasn't it? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let's imagine we pull up our phones right now and I go to my, my favorite stock ticker app and I check out the NASDAQ market cap. I really have no idea if that's the correct number. I know it's a number, it looks large, it's in a numeric field. And, and that's kind of what's going on. There's, there's so many numbers and they're coming from all of these different sources and data providers and they're getting consumed and passed along. But there isn't really a way to tactically put controls on every number and metric across every field we plan to monitor, but with the scale that we've achieved in early days, even before calibra. And what's been so exciting is we have these types of observation techniques, these data monitors that can actually track past performance of every field at scale. And why that's so interesting and why I think the CDO is, is listening right intently nowadays to this topic is, so maybe we could surface all of these problems with the right solution of data observability and with the right scale and then just be alerted on breaking trends. So we're sort of shifting away from this world of must write a condition and then when that condition breaks, that was always known as a break record. But what about breaking trends and root cause analysis? And is it possible to do that, you know, with less human intervention? And so I think most people are seeing now that it's going to have to be a software tool and a computer system. It's, it's not ever going to be based on one or two domain experts anymore. >>So, So how does data observability relate to data quality? Are they sort of two sides of the same coin? Are they, are they cousins? What's your perspective on that? >>Yeah, it's, it's super interesting. It's an emerging market. So the language is changing a lot of the topic and areas changing the way that I like to say it or break it down because the, the lingo is constantly moving is, you know, as a target on this space is really breaking records versus breaking trends. And I could write a condition when this thing happens, it's wrong and when it doesn't it's correct. Or I could look for a trend and I'll give you a good example. You know, everybody's talking about fresh data and stale data and, and why would that matter? Well, if your data never arrived or only part of it arrived or didn't arrive on time, it's likely stale and there will not be a condition that you could write that would show you all the good in the bads. That was kind of your, your traditional approach of data quality break records. But your modern day approach is you lost a significant portion of your data, or it did not arrive on time to make that decision accurately on time. And that's a hidden concern. Some people call this freshness, we call it stale data, but it all points to the same idea of the thing that you're observing may not be a data quality condition anymore. It may be a breakdown in the data pipeline. And with thousands of data pipelines in play for every company out there there, there's more than a couple of these happening every day. >>So what's the Collibra angle on all this stuff made the acquisition, you got data quality observability coming together, you guys have a lot of expertise in, in this area, but you hear providence of data, you just talked about, you know, stale data, you know, the, the whole trend toward real time. How is Calibra approaching the problem and what's unique about your approach? >>Well, I think where we're fortunate is with our background, myself and team, we sort of lived this problem for a long time, you know, in, in the Wall Street days about a decade ago. And we saw it from many different angles. And what we came up with before it was called data observability or reliability was basically the, the underpinnings of that. So we're a little bit ahead of the curve there when most people evaluate our solution, it's more advanced than some of the observation techniques that that currently exist. But we've also always covered data quality and we believe that people want to know more, they need more insights, and they want to see break records and breaking trends together so they can correlate the root cause. And we hear that all the time. I have so many things going wrong, just show me the big picture, help me find the thing that if I were to fix it today would make the most impact. So we're really focused on root cause analysis, business impact, connecting it with lineage and catalog metadata. And as that grows, you can actually achieve total data governance at this point with the acquisition of what was a Lineage company years ago, and then my company Ldq now Collibra, Data quality Collibra may be the best positioned for total data governance and intelligence in the space. >>Well, you mentioned financial services a couple of times and some examples, remember the flash crash in 2010. Nobody had any idea what that was, you know, they just said, Oh, it's a glitch, you know, so they didn't understand the root cause of it. So this is a really interesting topic to me. So we know at Data Citizens 22 that you're announcing, you gotta announce new products, right? You're yearly event what's, what's new. Give us a sense as to what products are coming out, but specifically around data quality and observability. >>Absolutely. There's this, you know, there's always a next thing on the forefront. And the one right now is these hyperscalers in the cloud. So you have databases like Snowflake and Big Query and Data Bricks is Delta Lake and SQL Pushdown. And ultimately what that means is a lot of people are storing in loading data even faster in a SaaS like model. And we've started to hook in to these databases. And while we've always worked with the the same databases in the past, they're supported today we're doing something called Native Database pushdown, where the entire compute and data activity happens in the database. And why that is so interesting and powerful now is everyone's concerned with something called Egress. Did your, my data that I've spent all this time and money with my security team securing ever leave my hands, did it ever leave my secure VPC as they call it? >>And with these native integrations that we're building and about to unveil, here's kind of a sneak peek for, for next week at Data Citizens. We're now doing all compute and data operations in databases like Snowflake. And what that means is with no install and no configuration, you could log into the Collibra data quality app and have all of your data quality running inside the database that you've probably already picked as your your go forward team selection secured database of choice. So we're really excited about that. And I think if you look at the whole landscape of network cost, egress, cost, data storage and compute, what people are realizing is it's extremely efficient to do it in the way that we're about to release here next week. >>So this is interesting because what you just described, you know, you mentioned Snowflake, you mentioned Google, Oh actually you mentioned yeah, data bricks. You know, Snowflake has the data cloud. If you put everything in the data cloud, okay, you're cool, but then Google's got the open data cloud. If you heard, you know, Google next and now data bricks doesn't call it the data cloud, but they have like the open source data cloud. So you have all these different approaches and there's really no way up until now I'm, I'm hearing to, to really understand the relationships between all those and have confidence across, you know, it's like Jak Dani, you should just be a note on the mesh. And I don't care if it's a data warehouse or a data lake or where it comes from, but it's a point on that mesh and I need tooling to be able to have confidence that my data is governed and has the proper lineage, providence. And, and, and that's what you're bringing to the table, Is that right? Did I get that right? >>Yeah, that's right. And it's, for us, it's, it's not that we haven't been working with those great cloud databases, but it's the fact that we can send them the instructions now, we can send them the, the operating ability to crunch all of the calculations, the governance, the quality, and get the answers. And what that's doing, it's basically zero network costs, zero egress cost, zero latency of time. And so when you were to log into Big Query tomorrow using our tool or like, or say Snowflake for example, you have instant data quality metrics, instant profiling, instant lineage and access privacy controls, things of that nature that just become less onerous. What we're seeing is there's so much technology out there, just like all of the major brands that you mentioned, but how do we make it easier? The future is about less clicks, faster time to value, faster scale, and eventually lower cost. And, and we think that this positions us to be the leader there. >>I love this example because, you know, Barry talks about, wow, the cloud guys are gonna own the world and, and of course now we're seeing that the ecosystem is finding so much white space to add value, connect across cloud. Sometimes we call it super cloud and so, or inter clouding. All right, Kirk, give us your, your final thoughts and on on the trends that we've talked about and Data Citizens 22. >>Absolutely. Well, I think, you know, one big trend is discovery and classification. Seeing that across the board, people used to know it was a zip code and nowadays with the amount of data that's out there, they wanna know where everything is, where their sensitive data is. If it's redundant, tell me everything inside of three to five seconds. And with that comes, they want to know in all of these hyperscale databases how fast they can get controls and insights out of their tools. So I think we're gonna see more one click solutions, more SAS based solutions and solutions that hopefully prove faster time to value on, on all of these modern cloud platforms. >>Excellent. All right, Kurt Hasselbeck, thanks so much for coming on the Cube and previewing Data Citizens 22. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me, Dave. >>You're welcome. Right, and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more coverage from the Cube. Welcome to the Cube's virtual Coverage of Data Citizens 2022. My name is Dave Valante and I'm here with Laura Sellers, who's the Chief Product Officer at Collibra, the host of Data Citizens. Laura, welcome. Good to see you. >>Thank you. Nice to be here. >>Yeah, your keynote at Data Citizens this year focused on, you know, your mission to drive ease of use and scale. Now when I think about historically fast access to the right data at the right time in a form that's really easily consumable, it's been kind of challenging, especially for business users. Can can you explain to our audience why this matters so much and what's actually different today in the data ecosystem to make this a reality? >>Yeah, definitely. So I think what we really need and what I hear from customers every single day is that we need a new approach to data management and our product teams. What inspired me to come to Calibra a little bit a over a year ago was really the fact that they're very focused on bringing trusted data to more users across more sources for more use cases. And so as we look at what we're announcing with these innovations of ease of use and scale, it's really about making teams more productive in getting started with and the ability to manage data across the entire organization. So we've been very focused on richer experiences, a broader ecosystem of partners, as well as a platform that delivers performance, scale and security that our users and teams need and demand. So as we look at, Oh, go ahead. >>I was gonna say, you know, when I look back at like the last 10 years, it was all about getting the technology to work and it was just so complicated. But, but please carry on. I'd love to hear more about this. >>Yeah, I, I really, you know, Collibra is a system of engagement for data and we really are working on bringing that entire system of engagement to life for everyone to leverage here and now. So what we're announcing from our ease of use side of the world is first our data marketplace. This is the ability for all users to discover and access data quickly and easily shop for it, if you will. The next thing that we're also introducing is the new homepage. It's really about the ability to drive adoption and have users find data more quickly. And then the two more areas of the ease of use side of the world is our world of usage analytics. And one of the big pushes and passions we have at Collibra is to help with this data driven culture that all companies are trying to create. And also helping with data literacy, with something like usage analytics, it's really about driving adoption of the CLE platform, understanding what's working, who's accessing it, what's not. And then finally we're also introducing what's called workflow designer. And we love our workflows at Libra, it's a big differentiator to be able to automate business processes. The designer is really about a way for more people to be able to create those workflows, collaborate on those workflow flows, as well as people to be able to easily interact with them. So a lot of exciting things when it comes to ease of use to make it easier for all users to find data. >>Y yes, there's definitely a lot to unpack there. I I, you know, you mentioned this idea of, of of, of shopping for the data. That's interesting to me. Why this analogy, metaphor or analogy, I always get those confused. I let's go with analogy. Why is it so important to data consumers? >>I think when you look at the world of data, and I talked about this system of engagement, it's really about making it more accessible to the masses. And what users are used to is a shopping experience like your Amazon, if you will. And so having a consumer grade experience where users can quickly go in and find the data, trust that data, understand where the data's coming from, and then be able to quickly access it, is the idea of being able to shop for it, just making it as simple as possible and really speeding the time to value for any of the business analysts, data analysts out there. >>Yeah, I think when you, you, you see a lot of discussion about rethinking data architectures, putting data in the hands of the users and business people, decentralized data and of course that's awesome. I love that. But of course then you have to have self-service infrastructure and you have to have governance. And those are really challenging. And I think so many organizations, they're facing adoption challenges, you know, when it comes to enabling teams generally, especially domain experts to adopt new data technologies, you know, like the, the tech comes fast and furious. You got all these open source projects and get really confusing. Of course it risks security, governance and all that good stuff. You got all this jargon. So where do you see, you know, the friction in adopting new data technologies? What's your point of view and how can organizations overcome these challenges? >>You're, you're dead on. There's so much technology and there's so much to stay on top of, which is part of the friction, right? It's just being able to stay ahead of, of and understand all the technologies that are coming. You also look at as there's so many more sources of data and people are migrating data to the cloud and they're migrating to new sources. Where the friction comes is really that ability to understand where the data came from, where it's moving to, and then also to be able to put the access controls on top of it. So people are only getting access to the data that they should be getting access to. So one of the other things we're announcing with, with all of the innovations that are coming is what we're doing around performance and scale. So with all of the data movement, with all of the data that's out there, the first thing we're launching in the world of performance and scale is our world of data quality. >>It's something that Collibra has been working on for the past year and a half, but we're launching the ability to have data quality in the cloud. So it's currently an on-premise offering, but we'll now be able to carry that over into the cloud for us to manage that way. We're also introducing the ability to push down data quality into Snowflake. So this is, again, one of those challenges is making sure that that data that you have is d is is high quality as you move forward. And so really another, we're just reducing friction. You already have Snowflake stood up. It's not another machine for you to manage, it's just push down capabilities into Snowflake to be able to track that quality. Another thing that we're launching with that is what we call Collibra Protect. And this is that ability for users to be able to ingest metadata, understand where the PII data is, and then set policies up on top of it. So very quickly be able to set policies and have them enforced at the data level. So anybody in the organization is only getting access to the data they should have access to. >>Here's Topica data quality is interesting. It's something that I've followed for a number of years. It used to be a back office function, you know, and really confined only to highly regulated industries like financial services and healthcare and government. You know, you look back over a decade ago, you didn't have this worry about personal information, g gdpr, and, you know, California Consumer Privacy Act all becomes, becomes so much important. The cloud is really changed things in terms of performance and scale and of course partnering for, for, with Snowflake it's all about sharing data and monetization, anything but a back office function. So it was kind of smart that you guys were early on and of course attracting them and as a, as an investor as well was very strong validation. What can you tell us about the nature of the relationship with Snowflake and specifically inter interested in sort of joint engineering or, and product innovation efforts, you know, beyond the standard go to market stuff? >>Definitely. So you mentioned there were a strategic investor in Calibra about a year ago. A little less than that I guess. We've been working with them though for over a year really tightly with their product and engineering teams to make sure that Collibra is adding real value. Our unified platform is touching pieces of our unified platform or touching all pieces of Snowflake. And when I say that, what I mean is we're first, you know, able to ingest data with Snowflake, which, which has always existed. We're able to profile and classify that data we're announcing with Calibra Protect this week that you're now able to create those policies on top of Snowflake and have them enforce. So again, people can get more value out of their snowflake more quickly as far as time to value with, with our policies for all business users to be able to create. >>We're also announcing Snowflake Lineage 2.0. So this is the ability to take stored procedures in Snowflake and understand the lineage of where did the data come from, how was it transformed with within Snowflake as well as the data quality. Pushdown, as I mentioned, data quality, you brought it up. It is a new, it is a, a big industry push and you know, one of the things I think Gartner mentioned is people are losing up to $15 million without having great data quality. So this push down capability for Snowflake really is again, a big ease of use push for us at Collibra of that ability to, to push it into snowflake, take advantage of the data, the data source, and the engine that already lives there and get the right and make sure you have the right quality. >>I mean, the nice thing about Snowflake, if you play in the Snowflake sandbox, you, you, you, you can get sort of a, you know, high degree of confidence that the data sharing can be done in a safe way. Bringing, you know, Collibra into the, into the story allows me to have that data quality and, and that governance that I, that I need. You know, we've said many times on the cube that one of the notable differences in cloud this decade versus last decade, I mean ob there are obvious differences just in terms of scale and scope, but it's shaping up to be about the strength of the ecosystems. That's really a hallmark of these big cloud players. I mean they're, it's a key factor for innovating, accelerating product delivery, filling gaps in, in the hyperscale offerings cuz you got more stack, you know, mature stack capabilities and you know, it creates this flywheel momentum as we often say. But, so my question is, how do you work with the hyperscalers? Like whether it's AWS or Google, whomever, and what do you see as your role and what's the Collibra sweet spot? >>Yeah, definitely. So, you know, one of the things I mentioned early on is the broader ecosystem of partners is what it's all about. And so we have that strong partnership with Snowflake. We also are doing more with Google around, you know, GCP and kbra protect there, but also tighter data plex integration. So similar to what you've seen with our strategic moves around Snowflake and, and really covering the broad ecosystem of what Collibra can do on top of that data source. We're extending that to the world of Google as well and the world of data plex. We also have great partners in SI's Infosys is somebody we spoke with at the conference who's done a lot of great work with Levi's as they're really important to help people with their whole data strategy and driving that data driven culture and, and Collibra being the core of it. >>Hi Laura, we're gonna, we're gonna end it there, but I wonder if you could kind of put a bow on, you know, this year, the event your, your perspectives. So just give us your closing thoughts. >>Yeah, definitely. So I, I wanna say this is one of the biggest releases Collibra's ever had. Definitely the biggest one since I've been with the company a little over a year. We have all these great new product innovations coming to really drive the ease of use to make data more valuable for users everywhere and, and companies everywhere. And so it's all about everybody being able to easily find, understand, and trust and get access to that data going forward. >>Well congratulations on all the pro progress. It was great to have you on the cube first time I believe, and really appreciate you, you taking the time with us. >>Yes, thank you for your time. >>You're very welcome. Okay, you're watching the coverage of Data Citizens 2022 on the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>So data modernization oftentimes means moving some of your storage and computer to the cloud where you get the benefit of scale and security and so on. But ultimately it doesn't take away the silos that you have. We have more locations, more tools and more processes with which we try to get value from this data. To do that at scale in an organization, people involved in this process, they have to understand each other. So you need to unite those people across those tools, processes, and systems with a shared language. When I say customer, do you understand the same thing as you hearing customer? Are we counting them in the same way so that shared language unites us and that gives the opportunity for the organization as a whole to get the maximum value out of their data assets and then they can democratize data so everyone can properly use that shared language to find, understand, and trust the data asset that's available. >>And that's where Collibra comes in. We provide a centralized system of engagement that works across all of those locations and combines all of those different user types across the whole business. At Collibra, we say United by data and that also means that we're united by data with our customers. So here is some data about some of our customers. There was the case of an online do it yourself platform who grew their revenue almost three times from a marketing campaign that provided the right product in the right hands of the right people. In other case that comes to mind is from a financial services organization who saved over 800 K every year because they were able to reuse the same data in different kinds of reports and before there was spread out over different tools and processes and silos, and now the platform brought them together so they realized, oh, we're actually using the same data, let's find a way to make this more efficient. And the last example that comes to mind is that of a large home loan, home mortgage, mortgage loan provider where they have a very complex landscape, a very complex architecture legacy in the cloud, et cetera. And they're using our software, they're using our platform to unite all the people and those processes and tools to get a common view of data to manage their compliance at scale. >>Hey everyone, I'm Lisa Martin covering Data Citizens 22, brought to you by Collibra. This next conversation is gonna focus on the importance of data culture. One of our Cube alumni is back, Stan Christians is Collibra's co-founder and it's Chief Data citizens. Stan, it's great to have you back on the cube. >>Hey Lisa, nice to be. >>So we're gonna be talking about the importance of data culture, data intelligence, maturity, all those great things. When we think about the data revolution that every business is going through, you know, it's so much more than technology innovation. It also really re requires cultural transformation, community transformation. Those are challenging for customers to undertake. Talk to us about what you mean by data citizenship and the role that creating a data culture plays in that journey. >>Right. So as you know, our event is called Data Citizens because we believe that in the end, a data citizen is anyone who uses data to do their job. And we believe that today's organizations, you have a lot of people, most of the employees in an organization are somehow gonna to be a data citizen, right? So you need to make sure that these people are aware of it. You need that. People have skills and competencies to do with data what necessary and that's on, all right? So what does it mean to have a good data culture? It means that if you're building a beautiful dashboard to try and convince your boss, we need to make this decision that your boss is also open to and able to interpret, you know, the data presented in dashboard to actually make that decision and take that action. Right? >>And once you have that why to the organization, that's when you have a good data culture. Now that's continuous effort for most organizations because they're always moving, somehow they're hiring new people and it has to be continuous effort because we've seen that on the hand. Organizations continue challenged their data sources and where all the data is flowing, right? Which in itself creates a lot of risk. But also on the other set hand of the equation, you have the benefit. You know, you might look at regulatory drivers like, we have to do this, right? But it's, it's much better right now to consider the competitive drivers, for example, and we did an IDC study earlier this year, quite interesting. I can recommend anyone to it. And one of the conclusions they found as they surveyed over a thousand people across organizations worldwide is that the ones who are higher in maturity. >>So the, the organizations that really look at data as an asset, look at data as a product and actively try to be better at it, don't have three times as good a business outcome as the ones who are lower on the maturity scale, right? So you can say, ok, I'm doing this, you know, data culture for everyone, awakening them up as data citizens. I'm doing this for competitive reasons, I'm doing this re reasons you're trying to bring both of those together and the ones that get data intelligence right, are successful and competitive. That's, and that's what we're seeing out there in the market. >>Absolutely. We know that just generally stand right, the organizations that are, are really creating a, a data culture and enabling everybody within the organization to become data citizens are, We know that in theory they're more competitive, they're more successful. But the IDC study that you just mentioned demonstrates they're three times more successful and competitive than their peers. Talk about how Collibra advises customers to create that community, that culture of data when it might be challenging for an organization to adapt culturally. >>Of course, of course it's difficult for an organization to adapt but it's also necessary, as you just said, imagine that, you know, you're a modern day organization, laptops, what have you, you're not using those, right? Or you know, you're delivering them throughout organization, but not enabling your colleagues to actually do something with that asset. Same thing as through with data today, right? If you're not properly using the data asset and competitors are, they're gonna to get more advantage. So as to how you get this done, establish this. There's angles to look at, Lisa. So one angle is obviously the leadership whereby whoever is the boss of data in the organization, you typically have multiple bosses there, like achieve data officers. Sometimes there's, there's multiple, but they may have a different title, right? So I'm just gonna summarize it as a data leader for a second. >>So whoever that is, they need to make sure that there's a clear vision, a clear strategy for data. And that strategy needs to include the monetization aspect. How are you going to get value from data? Yes. Now that's one part because then you can leadership in the organization and also the business value. And that's important. Cause those people, their job in essence really is to make everyone in the organization think about data as an asset. And I think that's the second part of the equation of getting that right, is it's not enough to just have that leadership out there, but you also have to get the hearts and minds of the data champions across the organization. You, I really have to win them over. And if you have those two combined and obviously a good technology to, you know, connect those people and have them execute on their responsibilities such as a data intelligence platform like s then the in place to really start upgrading that culture inch by inch if you'll, >>Yes, I like that. The recipe for success. So you are the co-founder of Collibra. You've worn many different hats along this journey. Now you're building Collibra's own data office. I like how before we went live, we were talking about Calibra is drinking its own champagne. I always loved to hear stories about that. You're speaking at Data Citizens 2022. Talk to us about how you are building a data culture within Collibra and what maybe some of the specific projects are that Collibra's data office is working on. >>Yes, and it is indeed data citizens. There are a ton of speaks here, are very excited. You know, we have Barb from m MIT speaking about data monetization. We have Dilla at the last minute. So really exciting agen agenda. Can't wait to get back out there essentially. So over the years at, we've doing this since two and eight, so a good years and I think we have another decade of work ahead in the market, just to be very clear. Data is here to stick around as are we. And myself, you know, when you start a company, we were for people in a, if you, so everybody's wearing all sorts of hat at time. But over the years I've run, you know, presales that sales partnerships, product cetera. And as our company got a little bit biggish, we're now thousand two. Something like people in the company. >>I believe systems and processes become a lot important. So we said you CBRA isn't the size our customers we're getting there in of organization structure, process systems, et cetera. So we said it's really time for us to put our money where is and to our own data office, which is what we were seeing customers', organizations worldwide. And they organizations have HR units, they have a finance unit and over time they'll all have a department if you'll, that is responsible somehow for the data. So we said, ok, let's try to set an examples that other people can take away with it, right? Can take away from it. So we set up a data strategy, we started building data products, took care of the data infrastructure. That's sort of good stuff. And in doing all of that, ISA exactly as you said, we said, okay, we need to also use our product and our own practices and from that use, learn how we can make the product better, learn how we make, can make the practice better and share that learning with all the, and on, on the Monday mornings, we sometimes refer to eating our dog foods on Friday evenings. >>We referred to that drinking our own champagne. I like it. So we, we had a, we had the driver to do this. You know, there's a clear business reason. So we involved, we included that in the data strategy and that's a little bit of our origin. Now how, how do we organize this? We have three pillars, and by no means is this a template that everyone should, this is just the organization that works at our company, but it can serve as an inspiration. So we have a pillar, which is data science. The data product builders, if you'll or the people who help the business build data products. We have the data engineers who help keep the lights on for that data platform to make sure that the products, the data products can run, the data can flow and you know, the quality can be checked. >>And then we have a data intelligence or data governance builders where we have those data governance, data intelligence stakeholders who help the business as a sort of data partner to the business stakeholders. So that's how we've organized it. And then we started following the CBRA approach, which is, well, what are the challenges that our business stakeholders have in hr, finance, sales, marketing all over? And how can data help overcome those challenges? And from those use cases, we then just started to build a map and started execution use of the use case. And a important ones are very simple. We them with our, our customers as well, people talking about the cata, right? The catalog for the data scientists to know what's in their data lake, for example, and for the people in and privacy. So they have their process registry and they can see how the data flows. >>So that's a starting place and that turns into a marketplace so that if new analysts and data citizens join kbra, they immediately have a place to go to, to look at, see, ok, what data is out there for me as an analyst or a data scientist or whatever to do my job, right? So they can immediately get access data. And another one that we is around trusted business. We're seeing that since, you know, self-service BI allowed everyone to make beautiful dashboards, you know, pie, pie charts. I always, my pet pee is the pie chart because I love buy and you shouldn't always be using pie charts. But essentially there's become proliferation of those reports. And now executives don't really know, okay, should I trust this report or that report the reporting on the same thing. But the numbers seem different, right? So that's why we have trusted this reporting. So we know if a, the dashboard, a data product essentially is built, we not that all the right steps are being followed and that whoever is consuming that can be quite confident in the result either, Right. And that silver browser, right? Absolutely >>Decay. >>Exactly. Yes, >>Absolutely. Talk a little bit about some of the, the key performance indicators that you're using to measure the success of the data office. What are some of those KPIs? >>KPIs and measuring is a big topic in the, in the data chief data officer profession, I would say, and again, it always varies with to your organization, but there's a few that we use that might be of interest. Use those pillars, right? And we have metrics across those pillars. So for example, a pillar on the data engineering side is gonna be more related to that uptime, right? Are the, is the data platform up and running? Are the data products up and running? Is the quality in them good enough? Is it going up? Is it going down? What's the usage? But also, and especially if you're in the cloud and if consumption's a big thing, you have metrics around cost, for example, right? So that's one set of examples. Another one is around the data sciences and products. Are people using them? Are they getting value from it? >>Can we calculate that value in ay perspective, right? Yeah. So that we can to the rest of the business continue to say we're tracking all those numbers and those numbers indicate that value is generated and how much value estimated in that region. And then you have some data intelligence, data governance metrics, which is, for example, you have a number of domains in a data mesh. People talk about being the owner of a data domain, for example, like product or, or customer. So how many of those domains do you have covered? How many of them are already part of the program? How many of them have owners assigned? How well are these owners organized, executing on their responsibilities? How many tickets are open closed? How many data products are built according to process? And so and so forth. So these are an set of examples of, of KPIs. There's a, there's a lot more, but hopefully those can already inspire the audience. >>Absolutely. So we've, we've talked about the rise cheap data offices, it's only accelerating. You mentioned this is like a 10 year journey. So if you were to look into a crystal ball, what do you see in terms of the maturation of data offices over the next decade? >>So we, we've seen indeed the, the role sort of grow up, I think in, in thousand 10 there may have been like 10 achieve data officers or something. Gartner has exact numbers on them, but then they grew, you know, industries and the number is estimated to be about 20,000 right now. Wow. And they evolved in a sort of stack of competencies, defensive data strategy, because the first chief data officers were more regulatory driven, offensive data strategy support for the digital program. And now all about data products, right? So as a data leader, you now need all of those competences and need to include them in, in your strategy. >>How is that going to evolve for the next couple of years? I wish I had one of those balls, right? But essentially I think for the next couple of years there's gonna be a lot of people, you know, still moving along with those four levels of the stack. A lot of people I see are still in version one and version two of the chief data. So you'll see over the years that's gonna evolve more digital and more data products. So for next years, my, my prediction is it's all products because it's an immediate link between data and, and the essentially, right? Right. So that's gonna be important and quite likely a new, some new things will be added on, which nobody can predict yet. But we'll see those pop up in a few years. I think there's gonna be a continued challenge for the chief officer role to become a real executive role as opposed to, you know, somebody who claims that they're executive, but then they're not, right? >>So the real reporting level into the board, into the CEO for example, will continue to be a challenging point. But the ones who do get that done will be the ones that are successful and the ones who get that will the ones that do it on the basis of data monetization, right? Connecting value to the data and making that value clear to all the data citizens in the organization, right? And in that sense, they'll need to have both, you know, technical audiences and non-technical audiences aligned of course. And they'll need to focus on adoption. Again, it's not enough to just have your data office be involved in this. It's really important that you're waking up data citizens across the organization and you make everyone in the organization think about data as an asset. >>Absolutely. Because there's so much value that can be extracted. Organizations really strategically build that data office and democratize access across all those data citizens. Stan, this is an exciting arena. We're definitely gonna keep our eyes on this. Sounds like a lot of evolution and maturation coming from the data office perspective. From the data citizen perspective. And as the data show that you mentioned in that IDC study, you mentioned Gartner as well, organizations have so much more likelihood of being successful and being competitive. So we're gonna watch this space. Stan, thank you so much for joining me on the cube at Data Citizens 22. We appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me over >>From Data Citizens 22, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. >>Okay, this concludes our coverage of Data Citizens 2022, brought to you by Collibra. Remember, all these videos are available on demand@thecube.net. And don't forget to check out silicon angle.com for all the news and wiki bod.com for our weekly breaking analysis series where we cover many data topics and share survey research from our partner ETR Enterprise Technology Research. If you want more information on the products announced at Data Citizens, go to collibra.com. There are tons of resources there. You'll find analyst reports, product demos. It's really worthwhile to check those out. Thanks for watching our program and digging into Data Citizens 2022 on the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. We'll see you soon.

>>Hello and welcome back to the live coverage of the Cube here. Live in Detroit, Michigan for Cub Con, our seventh year covering all seven years. The cube has been here. M John Fur, host of the Cube, co-founder of the Cube. I'm here with Lisa Mart, my co-host, and our new host, Savannah Peterson. Great to see you guys. We're wrapping up day one of three days of coverage, and our guest analyst is Sario Wall, who's the cube analyst who's gonna give us his report. He's been out all day, ear to the ground in the sessions, peeking in, sneaking in, crashing him, getting all the data. Great to see you, Sarvi. Lisa Savannah, let's wrap this puppy up. >>I am so excited to be here. My first coupon with the cube and being here with you and Lisa has just been a treat. I can't wait to hear what you have to say in on the report side. And I mean, I have just been reflecting, it was last year's coupon that brought me to you, so I feel so lucky. So much can change in a year, folks. You never know where you're be. Wherever you're sitting today, you could be living your dreams in just a few >>Months. Lisa, so much has changed. I mean, just look at the past this year. Events we're back in person. Yeah. Yep. This is a big team here. They're still wearing masks, although we can take 'em off with a cube. But mask requirement. Tech has changed. Conversations are upleveling, skill gaps still there. So much has changed. >>So much has changed. There's so much evolution and so much innovation that we've also seen. You know, we started out the keynote this morning, standing room. Only thousands of people are here. Even though there's a mass requirement, the community that is CNCF Co Con is stronger than I, stronger than I saw it last year. This is only my second co con. But the collaboration, what they've done, their devotion to the maintainers, their devotion to really finding mentors for mentees was really a strong message this morning. And we heard a >>Lot of that today. And it's going beyond Kubernetes, even though it's called co con. I also call it cloud native con, which I think we'll probably end up being the name because at the end of day, the cloud native scaling, you're starting to see the pressure points. You're start to see where things are breaking, where automation's coming in, breaking in a good way. And we're gonna break it all down Again. So much going on again, I've overs gonna be in charge. Digital is transformation. If you take it to its conclusion, then you will see that the developers are running the business. It isn't a department, it's not serving the business, it is the business. If that's the case, everything has to change. And we're, we're happy to have Sarib here with us Cube analysts on the badge. I saw that with the press pass. Well, >>Thank you. Thanks for getting me that badge. So I'm here with you guys and >>Well, you got a rapport. Let's get into it. You, I >>Know. Let's hear what you gotta say. I'm excited. >>Yeah. Went around, actually attend some sessions and, and with the analysts were sitting in, in the media slash press, and I spoke to some people at their booth and the, there are a few, few patterns, you know, which are, some are the exaggeration of existing patterns or some are kind of new patterns emerging. So things are getting complex in open source. The lawn more projects, right. They have, the CNCF has graduated some projects even after graduation, they're, they're exploring, right? Kubernetes is one of those projects which has graduated. And on that front, just a side note, the new projects where, which are entering the cncf, they're the, we, we gotta see that process and the three stages and all that stuff. I tweeted all day long, if you wanna know what it is, you can look at my tweets. But when I will look, actually write right on that actually after, after the show ends, what, what I saw there, these new projects need to be curated properly. >>I think they need to be weed. There's a lot of noise in these projects. There's a lot of overlap. So the, the work is cut out for CNCF folks, by the way. They're sort of managerial committee or whatever you call that. The, the people who are leading it, they're try, I think they're doing their best and they're doing a good job of that. And another thing actually, I really liked in the morning's keynote was that lot of women on the stage and minorities represented. I loved it, to be honest with you. So believe me, I'm a minority even though I'm Indian, but from India, I'm a minority. So people who have Punjab either know that I'm a minority, so I, I understand their pain and how hard it is to, to break through the ceiling and all that. So I love that part as well. Yeah, the >>Activity is clear. Yeah. From day one. It's in the, it's in the dna. I mean, they'll reject anything that the opposite >>Representation too. I mean, it's not just that everyone's invited, it's they're celebrated and that's a very big difference. Yeah. It's, you see conferences offer discounts for women for tickets or minorities, but you don't necessarily see them put them running where their mouth is actually recruit the right women to be on stage. Right. Something you know a little bit about John >>Diversity brings better outcomes, better product perspectives. The product is better with all the perspectives involved. Percent, it might go a little slower, maybe a little debates, but it's all good. I mean, it's, to me, the better product comes when everyone's in. >>I hope you didn't just imply that women would make society. So >>I think John men, like slower means a slower, >>More diversity, more debate, >>The worst. Bringing the diversity into picture >>Wine. That's, that's how good groups, which is, which is >>Great. I mean, yeah, yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. I, I take that mulligan back and say, hey, you knows >>That's >>Just, it's gonna go so much faster and better and cheaper, but that not diversity. Absolutely. >>Yes. Well, you make better products faster because you have a variety >>Of perspectives. The bigger the group, there's more debate. More debate is key. But the key to success is aligning and committing. Absolutely. Once you have that, and that's what open sources has been about for. Oh God, yeah. Generations >>Has been a huge theme in the >>Show generations. All right, so, so, >>So you have to add another, like another important, so observation if you will, is that the security is, is paramount right. Requirement, especially for open source. There was a stat which was presented in the morning that 60% of the projects in under CNCF have more vulnerabilities today than they had last year. So that was, That's shocking actually. It's a big jump. It's a big jump. Like big jump means jump, jump means like it can be from from 40 to 60 or or 50 or 60. But still that percentage is high. What, what that means is that lot more people are contributing. It's very sort of di carmic or ironic that we say like, Oh this project has 10,000 contributors. Is that a good thing? Right. We do. Do we know the quality of that, where they're coming from? Are there any back doors being, you know, open there? How stringent is the process of rolling those things, which are being checked in, into production? You know, who is doing that? I've >>Wondered about that. Yeah. The quantity, quality, efficacy game. Yes. And what a balance that must be for someone like CNCF putting in the structure to try and >>That's >>Hard. Curate and regulate and, and you know, provide some bumpers on the bowling lane, so to speak, of, of all of these projects. Yeah. >>Yeah. We thought if anybody thought that the innovation coming from, or the number of services coming from AWS or Google Cloud or likes of them is overwhelming, look at open source, it's even more >>Overwhelming. What's your take on the supply chain discussion? More code more happening. What are you hearing there? >>The supply chain from the software? Yeah. >>Supply chain software, supply chain security pays. Are people talking about that? What are you >>Seeing? Yeah, actually people are talking about that. The creation, the curation, not creation. Curation of suppliers of software I think is best done in the cloud. Marketplaces Ive call biased or what, you know, but curation of open source is hard. It's hard to know which project to pick. It's hard to know which project will pan out. Many of the good projects don't see the day light of the day, but some decent ones like it becomes >>A marketing problem. Exactly. The more you have out there. Exactly. The more you gotta get above the noise. Exactly. And the noise echo that. And you got, you got GitHub stars, you got contributors, you have vanity metrics now coming in to this that are influencing what's real. But sometimes the best project could have smaller groups. >>Yeah, exactly. And another controversial thing a little bit I will say that is that there's a economics of the practitioner, right? I usually talk about that and economics of the, the enterprise, right? So practitioners in our world, in software world especially right in systems world, practitioners are changing jobs every two to three years. And number of developers doubles every three years. That's the stat I've seen from Uncle Bob. He's authority on that software side of things. Wow. So that means there's a lot more new entrance that means a lot of churn. So who is watching out for the enterprise enterprises economics, You know, like are we creating stable enterprises? How stable are our operations? On a side note to that, most of us see the software as like one band, which is not true. When we talk about all these roles and personas, somebody's writing software for, for core layer, which is the infrastructure part. Somebody's writing business applications, somebody's writing, you know, systems of bracket, some somebody's writing systems of differentiation. We talk about those things. We need to distinguish between those and have principle based technology consumption, which I usually write about in our Oh, >>So bottom line in Europe about it, in your opinion. Yeah. What's the top story here at coupon? >>Top story is >>Headline. Yeah, >>The, the headline. Okay. The open source cannot be ignored. That's a headline. >>And what should people be paying attention to if there's a trend coming out? See any kind of trends coming out or any kind of signal, What, what do you see that people should pay attention to here? The put top >>Two, three things. The signal is that, that if you are a big shop, like you'd need to assess your like capacity to absorb open source. You need to be certain size to absorb the open source. If you are below that threshold, I mean we can talk about that at some other time. Like what is that threshold? I will suggest you to go with the managed services from somebody, whoever is providing those managed services around open source. So manage es, right? So from, take it from aws, Google Cloud or Azure or IBM or anybody, right? So use open source as managed offering rather than doing it yourself. Because doing it yourself is a lot more heavy lifting. >>I I, >>There's so many thoughts coming, right? >>Mind it's, >>So I gotta ask you, what's your rapport? You have some swag, What's the swag look >>Like to you? I do. Just as serious of a report as you do on the to floor, but I do, so you know, I come from a marketing background and as I, I know that Lisa does as well. And one of the things that I think about that we touched on in this is, is you know, canceling the noise or standing out from the noise and, and on a show floor, that's actually a huge challenge for these startups, especially when you're up against a rancher or companies or a Cisco with a very large budget. And let's say you've only got a couple grand for an activation here. Like most of my clients, that's how I ended up in the CU County ecosystem, was here with the A client before. So there actually was a booth over there and I, they didn't quite catch me enough, but they had noise canceling headphones. >>So if you just wanted to take a minute on the show floor and just not hear anything, which I thought was a little bit clever, but gonna take you through some of my favorite swag from today and to all the vendors, you know, this is why you should really put some thought into your swag. You never know when you're gonna end up on the cube. So since most swag is injection molded plastic that's gonna end up in the landfill, I really appreciate that garden has given all of us a potable plant. And even the packaging is plantable, which is very exciting. So most sustainable swag goes to garden. Well done >>Rep replicated, I believe is their name. They do a really good job every year. They had some very funny pins that say a word that, I'm not gonna say live on television, but they have created, they brought two things for us, yet it's replicated little etch sketch for your inner child, which is very nice. And given that we are in Detroit, we are in Motor City, we are in the home of Ford. We had Ford on the show. I love that they have done the custom K eight s key chains in the blue oval logo. Like >>Fords right behind us by the way, and are on you >>Interviewed, we had 'em on earlier GitLab taking it one level more personal and actually giving out digital portraits today. Nice. Cool. Which is quite fun. Get lap house multiple booths here. They actually IPOed while they were on the show floor at CubeCon 2021, which is fun to see that whole gang again. And then last but not least, really embracing the ship wheel logo of a Kubernetes is the robusta accrue that is giving out bucket hats. And if you check out my Twitter at sabba Savvy, you can see me holding the ship wheel that they're letting everyone pose with. So we are all in on Kubernetes. That cove gone 2022, that's for sure. Yeah. >>And this is something, day one guys, we've got three. >>I wanna get one of those >>Hats. We we need to, we need a group photo >>By the end of Friday we will have a beverage and hats on to sign off. That's, that's my word. If I can convince John, >>Don, what's your takeaway? You guys did a great kind of kickoff about last week or so about what you were excited about, what your thoughts were going to be. We're only on day one, There's been thousands of people here, we've had great conversations with contributors, the community. What's your take on day one? What's your, what's your tagline? >>Well, Savannah and I had at we up, we, we were talking about what we might see and I think we, we were right. I think we had it right. There's gonna be a lot more people than there were last year. Okay, check. That's definitely true. We're in >>Person, which >>Is refreshing. I was very surprised about the mask mandate that kind of caught me up guard. I was major. Yeah. Cause I've been comfortable without the mask. I'm not a mask person, but I had to wear it and I was like, ah, mask. But I understand I support that. But whatever. It's >>Corporate travel policy. So you know, that's what it is. >>And then, you know, they, I thought that they did an okay job with the gates, but they wasn't slow like last time. But on the content side, definitely Kubernetes security, top line headline, Kubernetes at scale security, that's, that's to me the bumper sticker top things to pay attention to the supply chain and the role of docker and the web assembly was a surprise. You're starting to see containers ecosystem coming back to, I won't say tension growth in the functionality of containers cuz they have to solve the security problem in the container images. Okay, you got scanning technology so it's a little bit in the weeds, but there's a huge movement going on to fix that problem to scale it so it's not a problem area contain. And then Dr sent a great job with productivity interviews. Scott Johnston over a hundred million in revenue so far. That's my number. They have not publicly said that. That's what I'm reporting from sources extremely well financially. And they, and they love their business model. They make productivity for developers. That's a scoop. That's new >>Information. That's a nice scoop we just dropped there on the co casually. >>You're watching that. Pay attention to that. But that, that's proof. But guess what, Red Hat's got developers too. Yes. Other people have to, So developers gonna go where it's the best. Yeah. Developers are voting with their code, they're voting with their feet. You will see the winners with the developers and that's what we've talked about. >>Well and the companies are catering to the developers. Savannah and I had a great conversation with Ford. Yeah. You saw, you showed their fantastic swag was an E for Ev right behind us. They were talking about the, all the cultural changes that they've really focused on to cater towards the developers. The developers becoming the influencers as you say. But to see a company that is as, as historied as Ford Motor Company and what they're doing to attract and retain developer talent was impressive. And honestly that surprised me. Yeah. >>And their head of deb relations has been working for, for, for 29 years. Which I mean first of all, most companies on the show floor haven't been around for 29 years. Right. But what I love is when you put community first, you get employees to stick around. And I think community is one of the biggest themes here at Cuco. >>Great. My, my favorite story that surprised me and was cool was the Red Hat Lockheed Martin interview where they had edge deployments with micro edge, >>Micro shift, >>Micro >>Shift, new projects under, there's, there are three new projects under, >>Under that was so, so cool because it was an edge story in deployment for the military where lives are on the line, they actually had it working. That is a real world example of Kubernetes and tech orchestrating to deploy the industrial edge. And I think that's proof in my mind that Kubernetes and this ecosystem is gonna move faster through this next wave of growth. Because once things start clicking, you get hybrid on premise to super cloud and edge. That was, that was my favorite cause it was real. That was real >>Story that it can make is literally life and death on the battlefield. Yeah, that was amazing. With what they're doing and what >>They're talking check out the Lockheed Martin Red Hat edge story on Silicon Angle and then a press release all pillar. >>Yeah. Another actually it's impressive, which we knew this which is happening, but I didn't know that it was happening at this scale is the finops. The finops is, I saw your is a discipline which most companies are adopting bigger companies, which are spending like hundreds of millions dollars in cloud average. Si a team size of finops for finops is seven people. And average number of tools is I think 3.5 or around 3.7 or something like that. Average number of tools they use to control the cost. So finops is a very generic term for years. It's not financial operations, it's the financial operations for the cloud cost, you know, containing the cloud costs. So that's a finops that is a very emerging sort of discipline >>To keep an eye on. And well, not only is that important, I talked to, well one of the principles over there, it's growing and they have real big players in that foundation. Their, their events are highly attended. It's super important. It's just, it's the cost side of cloud. And, and of course, you know, everyone wants to know what's going on. No one wants to leave there. Their Amazon on Yeah, you wanna leave the lights on the cloud, as we always say, you never know what the bill's gonna look like. >>The cloud is gonna reach $3 billion in next few years. So we might as well control the cost there. Yeah, >>It was, it was funny to get the reaction I found, I don't know if I was, how I react, I dunno how I felt. But we, we did introduce Super Cloud to a couple of guests and a, there were a couple reactions, a couple drawn. There was a couple, right. There was a couple, couple reactions. And what I love about the super cloud is that some people are like, oh, cringing. And some people are like, yeah, go. So it's a, it's a solid debate. It is solid. I saw more in the segments that I did with you together. People leaning in. Yeah. Super fun. We had a couple sum up, we had a couple, we had a couple cringes, I'll say their names, but I'll go back and make sure I, >>I think people >>Get 'em later. I think people, >>I think people cringe on the, on the term not on the idea. Yeah. You know, so the whole idea is that we are building top of the cloud >>And then so I mean you're gonna like this, I did successfully introduce here on the cube, a new term called architectural list. He did? That's right. Okay. And I wanna thank Charles Fitzgerald for that cuz he called super cloud architectural list. And that's exactly the point of super cloud. If you have a great coding environment, you shouldn't have to do an architecture to do. You should code and let the architecture of the Super cloud make it happen. And of course Brian Gracely, who will be on tomorrow at his cloud cast said Super Cloud enables super services. Super Cloud enables what Super services, super service. The microservices underneath the covers have to be different. High performing, automated. So again, the debate and Susan, the goal is to keep it open. And that's our, that's our goal. But we had a lot of fun with that. It was fun to poke the bear a little bit. So >>What is interesting to see just how people respond to it too, with you throwing it out there so consistently, >>You wanna poke the bear, get a conversation going, you know, let let it go. We'll see, it's been positive so far. >>There, there I had a discussion outside somebody who is from Ford but not attending this conference and they have been there for a while. I, I just some moment hit like me, like I said, people, okay, technologists are horizontal, the codes are horizontal. They will go from four to GM to Chrysler to Bank of America to, you know, GE whatever, you know, like cross vertical within vertical different vendors. So, but the culture of a company is local, right? Right. Ford has been building cars for forever. They sort of democratize it. They commercialize it, right? But they have some intense culture. It's hard to change those cultures. And how do we bring in the new thinking? What is, what approach that should be? Is it a sandbox approach for like putting new sensors on the car? They have to compete with te likes our Tesla, right? Yeah. But they cannot, if they are afraid of deluding their existing market or they're afraid of failure there, right? So it's very >>Tricky. Great stuff. Sorry. Great to have you on as our cube analyst breaking down the stories. We'll document that, that we'll roll out a post on it. Lisa Savannah, let's wrap up the show for day one. We got day two and three. We'll start with you. What's your summary? Quick bumper sticker. What's today's show all about? >>I'm a community first gal and this entire experience is about community and it's really nice to see the community come together, celebrate that, share ideas, and to have our community together on stage. >>Yeah. To me, to me it was all real. It's happening. Kubernetes cloud native at scale, it's happening, it's real. And we see proof points and we're gonna have faster time to value. It's gonna accelerate faster from here. >>The proof points, the impact is real. And we saw that in some amazing stories. And this is just a one of the cubes >>Coverage. Ib final word on this segment was well >>Said Lisa. Yeah, I, I think I, I would repeat what I said. I got eight, nine years back at a rack space conference. Open source is amazing for one biggest reason. It gives the ability to the developing nations to be at somewhat at par where the dev develop nations and, and those people to lift up their masses through the automation. Cuz when automation happens, the corruption goes down and the economy blossoms. And I think it's great and, and we need to do more in it, but we have to be careful about the supply chains around the software so that, so our systems are secure and they are robust. Yeah, >>That's it. Okay. To me for SAR B and my two great co-host, Lisa Martin, Savannah Peterson. I'm John Furry. You're watching the Cube Day one in, in the Books. We'll see you tomorrow, day two Cuban Cloud Native live in Detroit. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hey guys, welcome back to the show floor of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22 North America from Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is day one, John at theCUBE's coverage. >> CUBE's coverage. >> theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon. Try saying that five times fast. Day one, we have three wall-to-wall days. We've been talking about Kubernetes, containers, adoption, cloud adoption, app modernization all morning. We can't talk about those things without addressing security. >> Yeah, this segment we're going to hear container and Kubernetes security for modern application 'cause the enterprise are moving there. And this segment with Red Hat's going to be important because they are the leader in the enterprise when it comes to open source in Linux. So this is going to be a very fun segment. >> Very fun segment. Two guests from Red Hat join us. Please welcome Doron Caspin, Senior Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. Michael Foster joins us as well, Principal Product Marketing Manager and StackRox Community Lead at Red Hat. Guys, great to have you on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> It's awesome. So Michael StackRox acquisition's been about a year. You got some news? >> Yeah, 18 months. >> Unpack that for us. >> It's been 18 months, yeah. So StackRox in 2017, originally we shifted to be the Kubernetes-native security platform. That was our goal, that was our vision. Red Hat obviously saw a lot of powerful, let's say, mission statement in that, and they bought us in 2021. Pre-acquisition we were looking to create a cloud service. Originally we ran on Kubernetes platforms, we had an operator and things like that. Now we are looking to basically bring customers in into our service preview for ACS as a cloud service. That's very exciting. Security conversation is top notch right now. It's an all time high. You can't go with anywhere without talking about security. And specifically in the code, we were talking before we came on camera, the software supply chain is real. It's not just about verification. Where do you guys see the challenges right now? Containers having, even scanning them is not good enough. First of all, you got to scan them and that may not be good enough. Where's the security challenges and where's the opportunity? >> I think a little bit of it is a new way of thinking. The speed of security is actually does make you secure. We want to keep our images up and fresh and updated and we also want to make sure that we're keeping the open source and the different images that we're bringing in secure. Doron, I know you have some things to say about that too. He's been working tirelessly on the cloud service. >> Yeah, I think that one thing, you need to trust your sources. Even if in the open source world, you don't want to copy paste libraries from the web. And most of our customers using third party vendors and getting images from different location, we need to trust our sources and we have a really good, even if you have really good scanning solution, you not always can trust it. You need to have a good solution for that. >> And you guys are having news, you're announcing the Red Hat Advanced Cluster Security Cloud Service. >> Yes. >> What is that? >> So we took StackRox and we took the opportunity to make it as a cloud services so customer can consume the product as a cloud services as a start offering and customer can buy it through for Amazon Marketplace and in the future Azure Marketplace. So customer can use it for the AKS and EKS and AKS and also of course OpenShift. So we are not specifically for OpenShift. We're not just OpenShift. We also provide support for EKS and AKS. So we provided the capability to secure the whole cloud posture. We know customer are not only OpenShift or not only EKS. We have both. We have free cloud or full cloud. So we have open. >> So it's not just OpenShift, it's Kubernetes, environments, all together. >> Doron: All together, yeah. >> Lisa: Meeting customers where they are. >> Yeah, exactly. And we focus on, we are not trying to boil the ocean or solve the whole cloud security posture. We try to solve the Kubernetes security cluster. It's very unique and very need unique solution for that. It's not just added value in our cloud security solution. We think it's something special for Kubernetes and this is what Red that is aiming to. To solve this issue. >> And the ACS platform really doesn't change at all. It's just how they're consuming it. It's a lot quicker in the cloud. Time to value is right there. As soon as you start up a Kubernetes cluster, you can get started with ACS cloud service and get going really quickly. >> I'm going to ask you guys a very simple question, but I heard it in the bar in the lobby last night. Practitioners talking and they were excited about the Red Hat opportunity. They actually asked a question, where do I go and get some free Red Hat to test some Kubernetes out and run helm or whatever. They want to play around. And do you guys have a program for someone to get start for free? >> Yeah, so the cloud service specifically, we're going to service preview. So if people sign up, they'll be able to test it out and give us feedback. That's what we're looking for. >> John: Is that a Sandbox or is that going to be in the cloud? >> They can run it in their own environment. So they can sign up. >> John: Free. >> Doron: Yeah, free. >> For the service preview. All we're asking for is for customer feedback. And I know it's actually getting busy there. It's starting December. So the quicker people are, the better. >> So my friend at the lobby I was talking to, I told you it was free. I gave you the sandbox, but check out your cloud too. >> And we also have the open source version so you can download it and use it. >> Yeah, people want to know how to get involved. I'm getting a lot more folks coming to Red Hat from the open source side that want to get their feet wet. That's been a lot of people rarely interested. That's a real testament to the product leadership. Congratulations. >> Yeah, thank you. >> So what are the key challenges that you have on your roadmap right now? You got the products out there, what's the current stake? Can you scope the adoption? Can you share where we're at? What people are doing specifically and the real challenges? >> I think one of the biggest challenges is talking with customers with a slightly, I don't want to say outdated, but an older approach to security. You hear things like malware pop up and it's like, well, really what we should be doing is keeping things into low and medium vulnerabilities, looking at the configuration, managing risk accordingly. Having disparate security tools or different teams doing various things, it's really hard to get a security picture of what's going on in the cluster. That's some of the biggest challenges that we talk with customers about. >> And in terms of resolving those challenges, you mentioned malware, we talk about ransomware. It's a household word these days. It's no longer, are we going to get hit? It's when? It's what's the severity? It's how often? How are you guys helping customers to dial down some of the risk that's inherent and only growing these days? >> Yeah, risk, it's a tough word to generalize, but our whole goal is to give you as much security information in a way that's consumable so that you can evaluate your risk, set policies, and then enforce them early on in the cluster or early on in the development pipeline so that your developers get the security information they need, hopefully asynchronously. That's the best way to do it. It's nice and quick, but yeah. I don't know if Doron you want to add to that? >> Yeah, so I think, yeah, we know that ransomware, again, it's a big world for everyone and we understand the area of the boundaries where we want to, what we want to protect. And we think it's about policies and where we enforce it. So, and if you can enforce it on, we know that as we discussed before that you can scan the image, but we never know what is in it until you really run it. So one of the thing that we we provide is runtime scanning. So you can scan and you can have policy in runtime. So enforce things in runtime. But even if one image got in a way and get to your cluster and run on somewhere, we can stop it in runtime. >> Yeah. And even with the runtime enforcement, the biggest thing we have to educate customers on is that's the last-ditch effort. We want to get these security controls as early as possible. That's where the value's going to be. So we don't want to be blocking things from getting to staging six weeks after developers have been working on a project. >> I want to get you guys thoughts on developer productivity. Had Docker CEO on earlier and since then I had a couple people messaging me. Love the vision of Docker, but Docker Hub has some legacy and it might not, has does something kind of adoption that some people think it does. Are people moving 'cause there times they want to have these their own places? No one place or maybe there is, or how do you guys see the movement of say Docker Hub to just using containers? I don't need to be Docker Hub. What's the vis-a-vis competition? >> I mean working with open source with Red Hat, you have to meet the developers where they are. If your tool isn't cutting it for developers, they're going to find a new tool and really they're the engine, the growth engine of a lot of these technologies. So again, if Docker, I don't want to speak about Docker or what they're doing specifically, but I know that they pretty much kicked off the container revolution and got this whole thing started. >> A lot of people are using your environment too. We're hearing a lot of uptake on the Red Hat side too. So, this is open source help, it all sorts stuff out in the end, like you said, but you guys are getting a lot of traction there. Can you share what's happening there? >> I think one of the biggest things from a developer experience that I've seen is the universal base image that people are using. I can speak from a security standpoint, it's awesome that you have a base image where you can make one change or one issue and it can impact a lot of different applications. That's one of the big benefits that I see in adoption. >> What are some of the business, I'm curious what some of the business outcomes are. You talked about faster time to value obviously being able to get security shifted left and from a control perspective. but what are some of the, if I'm a business, if I'm a telco or a healthcare organization or a financial organization, what are some of the top line benefits that this can bubble up to impact? >> I mean for me, with those two providers, compliance is a massive one. And just having an overall look at what's going on in your clusters, in your environments so that when audit time comes, you're prepared. You can get through that extremely quickly. And then as well, when something inevitably does happen, you can get a good image of all of like, let's say a Log4Shell happens, you know exactly what clusters are affected. The triage time is a lot quicker. Developers can get back to developing and then yeah, you can get through it. >> One thing that we see that customers compliance is huge. >> Yes. And we don't want to, the old way was that, okay, I will provision a cluster and I will do scans and find things, but I need to do for PCI DSS for example. Today the customer want to provision in advance a PCI DSS cluster. So you need to do the compliance before you provision the cluster and make all the configuration already baked for PCI DSS or HIPAA compliance or FedRAMP. And this is where we try to use our compliance, we have tools for compliance today on OpenShift and other clusters and other distribution, but you can do this in advance before you even provision the cluster. And we also have tools to enforce it after that, after your provision, but you have to do it again before and after to make it more feasible. >> Advanced cluster management and the compliance operator really help with that. That's why OpenShift Platform Plus as a bundle is so popular. Just being able to know that when a cluster gets provision, it's going to be in compliance with whatever the healthcare provider is using. And then you can automatically have ACS as well pop up so you know exactly what applications are running, you know it's in compliance. I mean that's the speed. >> You mentioned the word operator, I get triggering word now for me because operator role is changing significantly on this next wave coming because of the automation. They're operating, but they're also devs too. They're developing and composing. It's almost like a dashboard, Lego blocks. The operator's not just manually racking and stacking like the old days, I'm oversimplifying it, but the new operators running stuff, they got observability, they got coding, their servicing policy. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of knobs. Is it going to get simpler? How do you guys see the org structures changing to fill the gap on what should be a very simple, turn some knobs, operate at scale? >> Well, when StackRox originally got acquired, one of the first things we did was put ACS into an operator and it actually made the application life cycle so much easier. It was very easy in the console to go and say, Hey yeah, I want ACS my cluster, click it. It would get provisioned. New clusters would get provisioned automatically. So underneath it might get more complicated. But in terms of the application lifecycle, operators make things so much easier. >> And of course I saw, I was lucky enough with Lisa to see Project Wisdom in AnsibleFest. You going to say, Hey, Red Hat, spin up the clusters and just magically will be voice activated. Starting to see AI come in. So again, operations operator is got to dev vibe and an SRE vibe, but it's not that direct. Something's happening there. We're trying to put our finger on. What do you guys think is happening? What's the real? What's the action? What's transforming? >> That's a good question. I think in general, things just move to the developers all the time. I mean, we talk about shift left security, everything's always going that way. Developers how they're handing everything. I'm not sure exactly. Doron, do you have any thoughts on that. >> Doron, what's your reaction? You can just, it's okay, say what you want. >> So I spoke with one of our customers yesterday and they say that in the last years, we developed tons of code just to operate their infrastructure. That if developers, so five or six years ago when a developer wanted VM, it will take him a week to get a VM because they need all their approval and someone need to actually provision this VM on VMware. And today they automate all the way end-to-end and it take two minutes to get a VM for developer. So operators are becoming developers as you said, and they develop code and they make the infrastructure as code and infrastructure as operator to make it more easy for the business to run. >> And then also if you add in DataOps, AIOps, DataOps, Security Ops, that's the new IT. It seems to be the new IT is the stuff that's scaling, a lot of data's coming in, you got security. So all that's got to be brought in. How do you guys view that into the equation? >> Oh, I mean you become big generalists. I think there's a reason why those cloud security or cloud professional certificates are becoming so popular. You have to know a lot about all the different applications, be able to code it, automate it, like you said, hopefully everything as code. And then it also makes it easy for security tools to come in and look and examine where the vulnerabilities are when those things are as code. So because you're going and developing all this automation, you do become, let's say a generalist. >> We've been hearing on theCUBE here and we've been hearing the industry, burnout, associated with security professionals and some DataOps because the tsunami of data, tsunami of breaches, a lot of engineers getting called in the middle of the night. So that's not automated. So this got to get solved quickly, scaled up quickly. >> Yes. There's two part question there. I think in terms of the burnout aspect, you better send some love to your security team because they only get called when things get broken and when they're doing a great job you never hear about them. So I think that's one of the things, it's a thankless profession. From the second part, if you have the right tools in place so that when something does hit the fan and does break, then you can make an automated or a specific decision upstream to change that, then things become easy. It's when the tools aren't in place and you have desperate environments so that when a Log4Shell or something like that comes in, you're scrambling trying to figure out what clusters are where and where you're impacted. >> Point of attack, remediate fast. That seems to be the new move. >> Yeah. And you do need to know exactly what's going on in your clusters and how to remediate it quickly, how to get the most impact with one change. >> And that makes sense. The service area is expanding. More things are being pushed. So things will, whether it's a zero day vulnerability or just attack. >> Just mix, yeah. Customer automate their all of things, but it's good and bad. Some customer told us they, I think Spotify lost the whole a full zone because of one mistake of a customer because they automate everything and you make one mistake. >> It scale the failure really. >> Exactly. Scaled the failure really fast. >> That was actually few contact I think four years ago. They talked about it. It was a great learning experience. >> It worked double edge sword there. >> Yeah. So definitely we need to, again, scale automation, test automation way too, you need to hold the drills around data. >> Yeah, you have to know the impact. There's a lot of talk in the security space about what you can and can't automate. And by default when you install ACS, everything is non-enforced. You have to have an admission control. >> How are you guys seeing your customers? Obviously Red Hat's got a great customer base. How are they adopting to the managed service wave that's coming? People are liking the managed services now because they maybe have skills gap issues. So managed service is becoming a big part of the portfolio. What's your guys' take on the managed services piece? >> It's just time to value. You're developing a new application, you need to get it out there quick. If somebody, your competitor gets out there a month before you do, that's a huge market advantage. >> So you care how you got there. >> Exactly. And so we've had so much Kubernetes expertise over the last 10 or so, 10 plus year or well, Kubernetes for seven plus years at Red Hat, that why wouldn't you leverage that knowledge internally so you can get your application. >> Why change your toolchain and your workflows go faster and take advantage of the managed service because it's just about getting from point A to point B. >> Exactly. >> Well, in time to value is, you mentioned that it's not a trivial term, it's not a marketing term. There's a lot of impact that can be made. Organizations that can move faster, that can iterate faster, develop what their customers are looking for so that they have that competitive advantage. It's definitely not something that's trivial. >> Yeah. And working in marketing, whenever you get that new feature out and I can go and chat about it online, it's always awesome. You always get customers interests. >> Pushing new code, being secure. What's next for you guys? What's on the agenda? What's around the corner? We'll see a lot of Red Hat at re:Invent. Obviously your relationship with AWS as strong as a company. Multi-cloud is here. Supercloud as we've been saying. Supercloud is a thing. What's next for you guys? >> So we launch the cloud services and the idea that we will get feedback from customers. We are not going GA. We're not going to sell it for now. We want to get customers, we want to get feedback to make the product as best what we can sell and best we can give for our customers and get feedback. And when we go GA and we start selling this product, we will get the best product in the market. So this is our goal. We want to get the customer in the loop and get as much as feedback as we can. And also we working very closely with our customers, our existing customers to announce the product to add more and more features what the customer needs. It's all about supply chain. I don't like it, but we have to say, it's all about making things more automated and make things more easy for our customer to use to have security in the Kubernetes environment. >> So where can your customers go? Clearly, you've made a big impact on our viewers with your conversation today. Where are they going to be able to go to get their hands on the release? >> So you can find it on online. We have a website to sign up for this program. It's on my blog. We have a blog out there for ACS cloud services. You can just go there, sign up, and we will contact the customer. >> Yeah. And there's another way, if you ever want to get your hands on it and you can do it for free, Open Source StackRox. The product is open source completely. And I would love feedback in Slack channel. It's one of the, we also get a ton of feedback from people who aren't actually paying customers and they contribute upstream. So that's an awesome way to get started. But like you said, you go to, if you search ACS cloud service and service preview. Don't have to be a Red Hat customer. Just if you're running a CNCF compliant Kubernetes version. we'd love to hear from you. >> All open source, all out in the open. >> Yep. >> Getting it available to the customers, the non-customers, they hopefully pending customers. Guys, thank you so much for joining John and me talking about the new release, the evolution of StackRox in the last season of 18 months. Lot of good stuff here. I think you've done a great job of getting the audience excited about what you're releasing. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> For our guest and for John Furrier, Lisa Martin here in Detroit, KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America. Coming to you live, we'll be back with our next guest in just a minute. (gentle music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's Coverage of Data Citizens 2022 Collibra's Customer event. My name is Dave Vellante. With us is Kirk Hasselbeck, who's the Vice President of Data Quality of Collibra. Kirk, good to see you. Welcome. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. Excited to be here. >> You bet. Okay, we're going to discuss data quality, observability. It's a hot trend right now. You founded a data quality company, OwlDQ and it was acquired by Collibra last year. Congratulations! And now you lead data quality at Collibra. So we're hearing a lot about data quality right now. Why is it such a priority? Take us through your thoughts on that. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely exciting times for data quality which you're right, has been around for a long time. So why now, and why is it so much more exciting than it used to be? I think it's a bit stale, but we all know that companies use more data than ever before and the variety has changed and the volume has grown. And while I think that remains true, there are a couple other hidden factors at play that everyone's so interested in as to why this is becoming so important now. And I guess you could kind of break this down simply and think about if Dave, you and I were going to build, you know a new healthcare application and monitor the heartbeat of individuals, imagine if we get that wrong, what the ramifications could be? What those incidents would look like? Or maybe better yet, we try to build a new trading algorithm with a crossover strategy where the 50 day crosses the 10 day average. And imagine if the data underlying the inputs to that is incorrect. We'll probably have major financial ramifications in that sense. So, it kind of starts there where everybody's realizing that we're all data companies and if we are using bad data, we're likely making incorrect business decisions. But I think there's kind of two other things at play. I bought a car not too long ago and my dad called and said, "How many cylinders does it have?" And I realized in that moment, I might have failed him because 'cause I didn't know. And I used to ask those types of questions about any lock brakes and cylinders and if it's manual or automatic and I realized I now just buy a car that I hope works. And it's so complicated with all the computer chips. I really don't know that much about it. And that's what's happening with data. We're just loading so much of it. And it's so complex that the way companies consume them in the IT function is that they bring in a lot of data and then they syndicate it out to the business. And it turns out that the individuals loading and consuming all of this data for the company actually may not know that much about the data itself and that's not even their job anymore. So, we'll talk more about that in a minute but that's really what's setting the foreground for this observability play and why everybody's so interested, it's because we're becoming less close to the intricacies of the data and we just expect it to always be there and be correct. >> You know, the other thing too about data quality and for years we did the MIT CDOIQ event we didn't do it last year at COVID, messed everything up. But the observation I would make there love thoughts is it data quality used to be information quality used to be this back office function, and then it became sort of front office with financial services and government and healthcare, these highly regulated industries. And then the whole chief data officer thing happened and people were realizing, well, they sort of flipped the bit from sort of a data as a a risk to data as an asset. And now, as we say, we're going to talk about observability. And so it's really become front and center, just the whole quality issue because data's fundamental, hasn't it? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let's imagine we pull up our phones right now and I go to my favorite stock ticker app and I check out the NASDAQ market cap. I really have no idea if that's the correct number. I know it's a number, it looks large, it's in a numeric field. And that's kind of what's going on. There's so many numbers and they're coming from all of these different sources and data providers and they're getting consumed and passed along. But there isn't really a way to tactically put controls on every number and metric across every field we plan to monitor. But with the scale that we've achieved in early days, even before Collibra. And what's been so exciting is we have these types of observation techniques, these data monitors that can actually track past performance of every field at scale. And why that's so interesting and why I think the CDO is listening right intently nowadays to this topic is so maybe we could surface all of these problems with the right solution of data observability and with the right scale and then just be alerted on breaking trends. So we're sort of shifting away from this world of must write a condition and then when that condition breaks, that was always known as a break record. But what about breaking trends and root cause analysis? And is it possible to do that, with less human intervention? And so I think most people are seeing now that it's going to have to be a software tool and a computer system. It's not ever going to be based on one or two domain experts anymore. >> So, how does data observability relate to data quality? Are they sort of two sides of the same coin? Are they cousins? What's your perspective on that? >> Yeah, it's super interesting. It's an emerging market. So the language is changing a lot of the topic and areas changing the way that I like to say it or break it down because the lingo is constantly moving as a target on this space is really breaking records versus breaking trends. And I could write a condition when this thing happens it's wrong and when it doesn't, it's correct. Or I could look for a trend and I'll give you a good example. Everybody's talking about fresh data and stale data and why would that matter? Well, if your data never arrived or only part of it arrived or didn't arrive on time, it's likely stale and there will not be a condition that you could write that would show you all the good and the bads. That was kind of your traditional approach of data quality break records. But your modern day approach is you lost a significant portion of your data, or it did not arrive on time to make that decision accurately on time. And that's a hidden concern. Some people call this freshness, we call it stale data but it all points to the same idea of the thing that you're observing may not be a data quality condition anymore. It may be a breakdown in the data pipeline. And with thousands of data pipelines in play for every company out there there, there's more than a couple of these happening every day. >> So what's the Collibra angle on all this stuff made the acquisition you got data quality observability coming together, you guys have a lot of expertise in this area but you hear providence of data you just talked about stale data, the whole trend toward real time. How is Collibra approaching the problem and what's unique about your approach? >> Well, I think where we're fortunate is with our background, myself and team we sort of lived this problem for a long time in the Wall Street days about a decade ago. And we saw it from many different angles. And what we came up with before it was called data observability or reliability was basically the underpinnings of that. So we're a little bit ahead of the curve there when most people evaluate our solution. It's more advanced than some of the observation techniques that currently exist. But we've also always covered data quality and we believe that people want to know more, they need more insights and they want to see break records and breaking trends together so they can correlate the root cause. And we hear that all the time. I have so many things going wrong just show me the big picture. Help me find the thing that if I were to fix it today would make the most impact. So we're really focused on root cause analysis, business impact connecting it with lineage and catalog, metadata. And as that grows, you can actually achieve total data governance. At this point, with the acquisition of what was a lineage company years ago and then my company OwlDQ, now Collibra Data Quality, Collibra may be the best positioned for total data governance and intelligence in the space. >> Well, you mentioned financial services a couple of times and some examples, remember the flash crash in 2010. Nobody had any idea what that was, they just said, "Oh, it's a glitch." So they didn't understand the root cause of it. So this is a really interesting topic to me. So we know at Data Citizens '22 that you're announcing you got to announce new products, right? Your yearly event, what's new? Give us a sense as to what products are coming out but specifically around data quality and observability. >> Absolutely. There's always a next thing on the forefront. And the one right now is these hyperscalers in the cloud. So you have databases like Snowflake and Big Query and Data Bricks, Delta Lake and SQL Pushdown. And ultimately what that means is a lot of people are storing in loading data even faster in a salike model. And we've started to hook in to these databases. And while we've always worked with the same databases in the past they're supported today we're doing something called Native Database pushdown, where the entire compute and data activity happens in the database. And why that is so interesting and powerful now is everyone's concerned with something called Egress. Did my data that I've spent all this time and money with my security team securing ever leave my hands? Did it ever leave my secure VPC as they call it? And with these native integrations that we're building and about to unveil here as kind of a sneak peek for next week at Data Citizens, we're now doing all compute and data operations in databases like Snowflake. And what that means is with no install and no configuration you could log into the Collibra Data Quality app and have all of your data quality running inside the database that you've probably already picked as your your go forward team selection secured database of choice. So we're really excited about that. And I think if you look at the whole landscape of network cost, egress cost, data storage and compute, what people are realizing is it's extremely efficient to do it in the way that we're about to release here next week. >> So this is interesting because what you just described you mentioned Snowflake, you mentioned Google, oh actually you mentioned yeah, the Data Bricks. Snowflake has the data cloud. If you put everything in the data cloud, okay, you're cool but then Google's got the open data cloud. If you heard Google Nest and now Data Bricks doesn't call it the data cloud but they have like the open source data cloud. So you have all these different approaches and there's really no way up until now I'm hearing to really understand the relationships between all those and have confidence across, it's like (indistinct) you should just be a note on the mesh. And I don't care if it's a data warehouse or a data lake or where it comes from, but it's a point on that mesh and I need tooling to be able to have confidence that my data is governed and has the proper lineage, providence. And that's what you're bringing to the table. Is that right? Did I get that right? >> Yeah, that's right. And for us, it's not that we haven't been working with those great cloud databases, but it's the fact that we can send them the instructions now we can send them the operating ability to crunch all of the calculations, the governance, the quality and get the answers. And what that's doing, it's basically zero network cost, zero egress cost, zero latency of time. And so when you were to log into Big BigQuery tomorrow using our tool or let or say Snowflake, for example, you have instant data quality metrics, instant profiling, instant lineage and access privacy controls things of that nature that just become less onerous. What we're seeing is there's so much technology out there just like all of the major brands that you mentioned but how do we make it easier? The future is about less clicks, faster time to value faster scale, and eventually lower cost. And we think that this positions us to be the leader there. >> I love this example because every talks about wow the cloud guys are going to own the world and of course now we're seeing that the ecosystem is finding so much white space to add value, connect across cloud. Sometimes we call it super cloud and so, or inter clouding. Alright, Kirk, give us your final thoughts and on the trends that we've talked about and Data Citizens '22. >> Absolutely. Well I think, one big trend is discovery and classification. Seeing that across the board people used to know it was a zip code and nowadays with the amount of data that's out there, they want to know where everything is where their sensitive data is. If it's redundant, tell me everything inside of three to five seconds. And with that comes, they want to know in all of these hyperscale databases, how fast they can get controls and insights out of their tools. So I think we're going to see more one click solutions, more SAS-based solutions and solutions that hopefully prove faster time to value on all of these modern cloud platforms. >> Excellent, all right. Kurt Hasselbeck, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and previewing Data Citizens '22. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. >> You're welcome. All right, and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more coverage from theCUBE.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Ansible Fest 2022. We are live in Chicago. This is day two of Waldo Wall coverage on the cube. John Fhrer here with me. Lisa Martin. John, today's a big news day. Yeah, >>Big time. I mean, we got the chief architect on this segments to be great. We have the lead product management. All the new stuff coming out really is a game changer. It's very cool and relevant. Very key to be relevant. And then, and being a part of the future. This is a changeover you see in the NextGen Cloud developer environment. Open source all coming together. So Ansible we've been covering for many, many years. We've always said they're in the middle of all the action and you're starting to see the picture. Yes. For me. So we're looking forward to a great segment. >>Yes. We've got two alumni back with us to unpack the news and all the great stuff that's going on here. Richard Hensel joins us Senior manager, Ansible Product Management, and Matthew Jones here, fresh from the keynote stage, Chief architect of Ansible Automation. Guys, great to have you on the program. Thanks >>For having us. Good to be here. >>So this morning was all about event driven Ansible. Unpack that. Talk about the impact that this is gonna have, The excitement, the buzz that you've heard on the show floor today. >>Yeah. You know, it's, it's exciting. We've been working on this for a while. We've been really excited to show this off because it's something that feels like the natural evolution of the platform and where it's going. Really being able to connect the automation with the sources of data and the actions that we know people want to use. We, we came into this knowing everybody here at this conference, this is something that everybody will be able to use. >>Talk about the innovations strategy. Cause we've always had these great conversations with Ansible. Oh yeah. The, the practitioners, they're, they're building the product with you. You guys are very hardcore on that. No secret. This is different. This is like a whole nother level of opportunity that's gonna take the, the community to new heights in terms of what they do in their job and free them up to do more creative development. >>Yeah, you're exactly right. You know, we, we know that people need to bring that sort of reactive and active automation to it. We've, we've done a lot of work to bring automation to everybody, to the masses. Now we need to meet them at the place where they are, where the, the where, where they have to do the most work and, and act in the most strategic and specific ways. >>All right. So now before we get into some of the deep dive, cause a ton of questions. This is really exciting product. Take a minute to explain what was the key announcement? Why, what specifically does this mean for the audience, watching customers and future customers? What's the big deal? To take a minute to explain what was announced. >>So this is about the, the evolution and the maturity of the automation that our users are doing. So, you know, you think about provisioning servers, you know, configuring networks, all that sort of, the stuff that we've established and everybody's been doing for a number of years. And then you go, Well, I've invested in that. I've done the heavy lifting, I've done the things that cost me agility. I think that cost me time. Well now I need to go further. So what can I go further into? And you move further at the stacks. You move away from the infrastructure, please. You move away from infrastructure as code. You move towards through configures code, up to officer's code. And you start to get into, well, I've got, I've got road tasks, I've got repetitive actions that I'm doing. I've got investigations, I've got remediations, I've got responses. >>Well, there's work that I do on a daily basis that is toil. Right. It's not efficient work. Right. Actually, we doing valuable work in the operation space as much as you were doing in, in the build space. And how do we move them up into that space? And it's, this is all based off observation. You can do this today, but how do we make it easier? We've gonna make it easier for them to do that and get, it's all about success. It's about the outcomes we're gonna drive users towards. They need to be successful as quickly as possible. How do we make that >>Happen? And Matt, I remember we talked in 2019 with Ansible, the word platform where we say, Hey, you know, platforms are super important. It's not a tool, tools and platforms as distinctions. You mentioned platform. This is now platform. A lot of people put a lot of work in into this Yeah. Claim what went on behind the scenes. So >>You're exactly right. And we've spent the last couple of years really taking that disparate set of tools that, that we've invested a lot of time in building that platform. It's been exciting to see it come together. We always knew that we wanted to capture more of, more of where people find automation and find they need automation, not just out on the edge, on the end of the, of the, of the actions and tasks that they need to do. They've got a lot of things coming in, a lot of things that they need to take care of. And the community is really what drives this for us. People who have been doing this for years and they've been asking us, Meet me halfway. Give me something. Give me a part of this platform and a capability that enables me to do this. So I I feel like we've done that and you did >>It. Yeah, exactly. For step one. >>And that must feel pretty good too, to be able to deliver what, you know, the masses are looking for and why they're looking >>For it. Yeah. This was, there was no question that we knew this was gonna deliver the kind of real value that people were looking for. >>Take us through the building blocks real quick. I know on stage you went through it in detail. What should people know about the core building blocks of, of this particular event driven >>Piece? Yeah. You know, I think the most important thing to understand at the, at the outset is the sources of data and events that come in. It's really easy to get lost in the details. Like, what do you mean a source? But, you know, we've shown examples using Kafka, but it's not just Kafka, right? It's, it's, it's web hooks, it's CI systems, it's any, any place that you can imagine an evict coming from your monitoring platforms. You can bring those together under the same umbrella. We're not requiring you to pick one or choose or what's your favorite one. You can bring, you can use them all and and condense them down into the, into the same place. >>There's a lot of data events everywhere now. There's more events. Yeah. Is there a standard interface? Is what's the, is there any kind of hook in there? Is what's, what's gonna limit? Or is there any limits? >>I I don't think there is a limit. I, you know, it's, and we can't even imagine where events and data are gonna come from, but we know we need to get them into the system in a way that makes the most sense for the, the customers. And then that, that drives through into the rule books. Like, okay, we have the data now, but what do we do with that data? How do we translate that into, into the action? What are the rules that need to follow? It's giving the, the, the person who is automating, who understands the data that's coming in and understands the task that they need to take. The, the rules are where they map those into it. And then the last part, of course is the playbook, the automation itself, which they already know. They're already experts in the system. So we've, we've, we've built this like eight lane highway. They get some right end of those actions. >>Let's talk about Richard, let's unpack those actions and the really kind of double click on the business outcomes that this is actually gonna enable organizations and any industry to achieve. >>Yeah, so >>I mean, it's, it, like Matt said, it's really hard to encapsulate everything that we see as possible. But if you just think about what happens when a system goes down, right? At that point in time, I'm potentially not making money, right? I'd say it's costing me time, it's costing me, that's a business impact. If I can speed up how quick I can resolve that problem, if I can reduce time in there, that's customer improvement, that's custom satisfaction. That's bottom line money for businesses, right? But it's also, it's also satisfaction for the users. You know, they're not involved in having the stressful get online, get quickly, activate whatever accounts you need to do, go and start doing discovery. You can detect a lot of that information for the discovery use case that we see, respond to an event, scan the system for that same logic that you would normally do as a user, as a human. >>And that's why the rules are important to add into ed. It's like, how do I take that human, that brain part that I would say, well, if I see this bit, oh, I'll go and have a look in this other log file. If I see this piece, I'll go and do something different. How do we translate that into Ansible so that you've got that conditional logic just to be able to say, if this do that, or if I see these three things, it means a certain outcome has happened. And then again, that defined, that's what's gonna help people like choose where it becomes useful. And that's how we, that's how we take that process >>Forward. I'm sure people are gonna get excited by this. I'm not sure the community already knows that, but as it's gonna attract more potential customers, what's different about it? Can you share the differentiation? Like wait minute, I already have that already. Do they have it already? What's different? What makes this different? What's, what's in it for them? >>Yeah. When we step up into a customer situation, an enterprise, an organization, what's really important becomes the, the ability to control where you do some of that work. So the control and the trust, You know, would you trust an automatic system to go and start making changes to hundreds of thousands of devices? And the answer is often not, not straight away. So how do we put this sort of sep the same separation of duties we have between dev and ops and all the nice structures we've done over the last number of years, and actually apply that to that programmatic access of automation that other systems do. So let's say a AIML systems that are detecting what's going on, observability platforms are, are much more intru or intrusive is the wrong word. They're much more observable of what's going on in the systems, right? But at the same time you go, I wanna make sure that I know that any point in time I can decide what, what is there and what can be run and who can run it and when they can run it. And that becomes an important dimension. >>The versatility seems like a big deal too. They can, Yeah. Any team could get >>Involved. And, and that's the, the same flexibility and the same extensibility of Ansible exists in this use case, right? The, the, the ability to take any of those tasks you wanna do in action, string them together, but what the way that it works for you, not the way that it works that we see, but the way that you see and you convert your operational DNA into how you do that automation and how that gets triggered as you see fit. >>Talk about this both of you. I'd like to get your perspectives on event driven Ansible as part of the automation journey that businesses are on. Obviously you can look at different industries and different businesses are, are at different places along that journey, but where does this fit in and kind of plugin to accelerating that journey? That's, >>That's a good question. You know, sometimes this ends up being like that last mile of we've adopted this automation, we've learned how to write automation. We even understand the things that we would need to automate, but how do we carry it over that last topic and connect it to our, our knowledge systems, our data stores, our data lakes, and how do we combine the expertise of the systems that we're managing with this automation that we've learned? Like you, you mentioned the, the, the community and the, the coalescing of data and information, the, the definition of the event rules and, and the event driven architecture. It lives alongside the automation that you've developed in the exact same place where you can feel that trust and ubiquity that we keep talking about. Right? It's there, it's certified. And we've talked a lot about secure supply chain recently. This gives you the ability to sign and certify that the rules and actions that we're taking and the sources that we're communicating with works exactly the same way. Yeah. And >>There's something we didn't, we didn't correlate this when we first started doing the work. We were, we were, we observe teams doing self-healing and you know, extending Ansible. And then over the last 18 months, what we've also seen is this movement, this platform engineering movement, the SRE teams becoming much more prominent. And this just nicely sits in as a type of use case for that type of transformation. You know, we've gotta remember that Ansible at is heart is also a transformative tool. Is like, how do you teach this behavior to a bunch of people? How do you upscale a larger base of engineers with what you want to be able to do? And I think this is such an important part that we, we just one say we stumbled into it, but it was a very, very nice, >>It was a natural progression. >>Exactly. >>Yeah. Yeah. Tom, Tom, when we were talking about Tom yesterday, Tom Anderson and he said, You guys bring up the SRE to you guys when you come on the cube. This is exactly a culture shift that we're talking about. I mean, SRE is really his legacy with Google. We all know that. Everyone kind of knows that, but it's become like a job title. Well they kind of, what does that even mean now if you're not Google, it means you're running stuff. DevOps has become a title. Yeah. So what that means is that's a cultural shift, not so much semantics Yeah. On title. This is kind of what you guys are targeting here, enabling people to run platforms, engineer them. Yeah. Like an architect and enable more co composability coding. >>And, and it's, so that's, that distinction is so important because one of the, you know, we see many customers come from different places. Many users from, you know, all the legacy or heritage of tools that have existed. And so often those processes are defined by the way that tool worked. Right? You had no other way that, that, and the, and it's, it happened 10 years ago, somebody implemented it, that's how it now works. And then they come and try and take something new and you go, well, you can't let the tool define your process. Now your culture and your objective has to define the process. So this is really, you know, how do we make sure we match that ability by giving them a flexible tool that let's say, Well what are you trying to achieve? I wanna achieve this outcome. That's the way you can do it. I >>Mean, that's how we match basically means my mind to get your reaction. It means I'm running stuff at scale. Yep. Engineer, I'm engineering and infrastructure at scale to enable, >>I'm responsible for it. And it's, it's my, it's my baby. It's my responsibility to do that. And how do we, how do we allow people to do that better? And you know, it, it's about, it's about freeing people up to focus on things that are really important and transformative. We can be transformative. And we do that by taking away the complexity and making things work fast. >>And that's what people want. People in their daily jobs want to be able to deliver value to the organization. You wanna feel that. But something Richard that you were talking about that struck me a couple minutes ago is, was a venture of an Ansible. There's employee benefits, there's customer benefits, Those two are ex inextricably linked. But I liked how you were talking about what it facilitates for both Yes. And all the way to the customer satisfaction, brand reputation. That's an important Yeah. Element for any brand to >>Consider. And that, I mean, you know, think about what digital transformation was all about. I mean, as we evolve past all these initial terms that come about, you know, we actually start getting to the meat of what these things are. And that is it connecting what you do with actually what is the purpose of what your business is trying to achieve. And you can't, you can't almost put money on that. That's, that's the, that's the holy grail of what you're trying to get to. So how, you know, and again, it just comes back to how do we facilitate, how do we make it easy? If we don't make it easier, we're not doing it right. We've gotta make it easier. >>Right. Well, exciting news. I want to get your guys' reaction and if you don't mind sharing your opinion or your commentary on what's different now with Ansible this year than just a few years ago in terms of the scope of what's out there, what's been built, what you guys are doing for the, for the customer base and the community. What's changed? Obviously the people's roles looked that they're gonna expand and have more, I say more power, you know, more keys to the kingdom, however you wanna look at it. But things have changed. What's changed now from a few years >>Ago. It's, you know, it, it's funny because we've spent a lot of time over the last couple years setting up the capabilities that you're seeing us deliver right now. Right. We, we look back two or three years ago and we knew where we wanted to be. We wanted to build things like eda. We wanted to invest in systems like Project Wisdom and the, the types of content, the cloud journey that, that now we're on and we're enabling for folks. But we had to make some really big changes. And those changes take time and, and take investment. The move into last year, John, we talked about execution environments. Yeah. And separating the control plane from the execution plane. All of that work that we did and the investment into the platform and stability of the platform leads us now into what >>Cap. And that's architectural decision. That's the long game in mind. Exactly. Making things more cohesive, but decoupled, that's an operating system kind of thinking. >>It, it totally is. It's a systems engineering and system architecture thinking. And now we can start building on top of these things like what comes after ed, what does ED allow us to do within the platform? All of the dev tools that we focused on that we haven't spent a lot of time talking about that from the product side. But being, coming in with prescriptive and opinionated dev tools, now we can show you how to build it. We can show you how to use it and connect it to your systems. Where can we go next? I'm really excited. >>Yeah. Your customer base two has also been part of from the beginning and they solve their own problems and they rolled it up, grow with it, and now it's a full on platform. The question I then ask is, okay, you believe it's a platform, which it is, it's enabling. What do you guys see as that possible dots that could connect that might come on top of this from a creativity standpoint, from an ecosystem standpoint, from an Ansible standpoint, from maybe Red Hat. I mean, wisdom shows that you can go into the treasure trove of IBM's research, pull out some AI and some machine learning. Both that in or shim layered in whatever you do. >>I mean, what I'm starting to see much more, especially as I, the nice thing about being here is actually getting face to face with customers again and you know, actually hearing what they're talking about. But you know, we've moved away from a Ansible specific story where I'm talking about how I, I was always, I was looking to automate, I was looking to go to Ansible. Well now I've got the automation capability. Now we've enhanced the automation. Capabil wisdom enhances the automation capability further. What about all those, those broader set of management solutions that I've got that I would like to start connecting to each other. So we're starting to take the same like, you know, you mentioned as then software architecture, software design principles. We'll apply those same application design principles, apply them to your IT management because we've got data center with the pressures on there. We've got the expansion into cloud, we've got the expansion to the edge, right? Each adding a new layer of complexity and a new layer of, you know, more that you have to then look after. But there's still the same >>Number of people. So a thousand flower blooms kind of situation. >>Exactly. And so how do I, how do I constrain, how do I tame it, right? How do I sit there and go, I, I can control that now I can look after that. I contain that. I can, I can deal with what I wanna do. So I'm focusing on what's important and we are getting stuff done. >>We, we've been quoting Andy Grove on the cube lately. Let chaos, rain and then rain in the chaos. Yes. Right? I mean that's kind of every inflection point has complexity before it gets simpler. >>Yeah, that's right. >>Yeah. You can't, there's answer that one. That's >>Perfectly. >>Yeah. Yeah. What do you expect to see chief ar you gotta have the vision. What's gonna pop out? What's that low, low hanging fruit? What's gonna bloom first? What do you think's gonna come? >>I, you know, my overarching vision is that I just want to be able to automate more. Where, where can we bring back, So edge cloud, right? That's obvious, but what things run in the cloud and and on the edge, right? Devices, you heard Chad in the keynote this morning talk about programmable logic controllers, sensors, fans, motors, things like that. This is the, the sort of, this is the next frontier of automation is that connecting your data centers and your systems, your applications and needs all the way out to where your customers are. Gas stations, point of sale systems. >>It's instant. It's instant. It is what it is. It's like just add, Just >>Add faster and bigger. Yeah. >>But what happens if, I'll give you a tease. What I think is, is what happens if this happens? So I've got much more rich feature, rich diverse set of tools looking after my systems, observing what's going on. And they go through a whole filtering process and they say such and such has happened, right? Wisdom picks that up and decides from that natural language statement that comes outta the back of that system. That's the task I think is now appropriate to run. Where do you run that? You need a secure execution capability. Pass that to an support, that single task. And now we run inside the automation platform at any of those locations that you just mentioned, right? Stitching those things together and having that sequence of events all the way through where you, you predefine what's possible. You know, you start to bias the system towards what is your accepted standard and then let those clever systems do what you are investing in them for, which is to run your IT and make it >>Easier. Rich here was on earlier, I said, hey, about voice activated it. Provision the cluster. Yeah. >>Last question guys, before we run out of time for this. For customers who take advantage of this new frontier, how can they get started with the bench of an what's? >>That's a good question. You know, we, we've engaged our community because they trust us and we trust them to build really good products. ansible.com/events. Oh man, >>I did have the, I >>Had the cup, the landing page. >>Find somebody find that. >>Well it's on GitHub, right? GitHub It is. >>Yeah it >>Is. Absolutely ansible.com. It's probably a link somewhere if I on the front page. Exactly. On GitHub. The good code too. >>Right? Exactly. And so look at there, you can see where we're going on our roadmap, what we're capable of today. Examples, we're gonna be doing labs and blogs and demonstrations of it over the next day, week, month. Right. You'll be able to see this evolve. You get to be the, the sort of vanguard of support and actions on this and >>Cause we really want, we really want users to play with it, right? Of course. We've been doing this for a while. We've seen what we think is right. We want users to play with it. Tell us whether the syntax works, whether it makes sense, how does it run, how does it work? That's the exciting part. But at the same time, we want the partners, you know, we, we don't know all the technologies, right? We want the partners that we have that work with us already in the community to go and sort of, you know, do those integrations, do those triggers to their systems, define rules for their stuff cuz they'll talk to their customers about it as >>Well. Right? Right. It'll be exciting to see what unfolds over the next six to nine months or so with the partners getting involved, the community getting involved. Guys, congratulations on the big announcements. Sounds like a lot of work. I can tell. We can tell. Your excitement level is huge and job well done. Thank you so much for joining us on the Cube. Thank you very much. Thank you. Our pleasure. Just All right, for our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live from Chicago, Ansible Fest 22. John and I will be right back with our next guest of Stay tuned.

>>The transformation of Dell into Dell emc. And now Dell Technologies has been one of the most remarkable stories in the history of the enterprise technology industry. The company has gone from a Wall Street darling rocket ship PC company to a Midling enterprise player, forced to go private to a debt laden powerhouse that controlled one of the most valuable assets in enterprise tech i e VMware, and now is a hundred billion dollar giant with a low margin business. A strong balance sheet in the broadest hardware portfolio in the industry and financial magic that Dell went through would make anyone's head spin. The last lever of Dell EMC of the Dell EMC deal was detailed in Michael Dell's book Play Nice But Win in a captivating chapter called Harry You and the Bolt from the Blue Michael Dell described how he and his colleagues came up with the final straw of how to finance the deal. >>If you haven't read it, you should. And of course, after years of successfully integrating EMC and becoming VMware's number one distribution channel, all of this culminated in the spin out of VMware from Dell and a massive wealth creation milestone pending, of course the Broadcom acquisition of VMware. So where's that leave Dell and what does the future look like for this technology powerhouse? Hello and welcome to the Cube's exclusive coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. My name is Dave Ante and I'll be hosting the program. Now today in conjunction with the Dell Tech Summit, we're gonna hear from four of Dell's senior executives, Tom Sweet, who's the CFO of Dell Technologies. He's gonna share his views on the company's position and opportunities going forward. He's gonna answer the question, why is Dell a good long-term investment? Then we'll hear from Jeff Boudreau, who's the president of Dell's ISG business. >>That unit is the largest profit driver of Dell. He's gonna talk about the product angle and specifically how Dell is thinking about solving the multi-cloud challenge. And then Sam Groot, who is the senior vice president of marketing, will come on the program and give us the update on Apex, which is Dell's as a service offering, and then the new Edge platform called Project Frontier. Now it's also cyber security Awareness month that we're gonna see if Sam has, you know, anything to say about that. Then finally, for a company that's nearly 40 years old, Dell actually has some pretty forward thinking philosophies when it comes to its culture and workforce. And we're gonna speak with Jen Vera, who's Dell's chief Human Resource Resource Officer about hybrid work and how Dell is thinking about the future of work. However, before we get into all this, I wanna share our independent perspectives on the company and some research that we'll introduce to frame the program. >>Now, as you know, we love data here at the cube and one of our partners, ETR has what we believe is the best spending intentions data for enterprise tech. So here's a graphic that shows ET R'S proprietary net score methodology in the vertical access. That's a measure of spending velocity. And on the X axis, his overlap of pervasiveness in the data sample, this is a cut for just the server, the storage, and the client sectors within the ETR taxonomy. So you can see Dell CSG products, laptops in particular are dominant on both the X and the Y dimensions. CSG is the client solutions group and accounts for nearly 60% of Dell's revenue and about half of its operating income. And then the arrow signifies that dot, that represents Dell's ISG business that we're gonna talk to Jeff Boudro about. That's the infrastructure solutions group. Now, ISG accounts for the bulk of of the remainder of Dell's business, and it is, it's, as I said, it's most profitable from a margin standpoint. >>It comprises the EMC storage business as well as the Dell server business and Dell's networking portfolio. And as a note, we didn't include networking in that cut had we done. So Cisco would've dominated the graphic. And frankly, Dell's networking business isn't industry leading in the same way that PCs, servers and storage are. And as you can see, the data confirms the leadership position Dell has in its client side, its server and its storage sectors. But the nuance is look at that red dotted line at 40% on the vertical axis that represents a highly elevated net score, and every company in the sector is below that line. Now we should mention that we also filtered the data for those companies with more than a hundred mentions in the survey, but the point remains the same. This is a mature business that generally is lower margin storage is the exception, but cloud has put pressure on margins even in that business in addition to the server space. >>The last point on this graphic is we put a box around VMware and it's prominently present on both the X and Y dimensions. VMware participates with purely software defined high margin offerings in this, in these spaces, and it gives you a sense of what might have been had Dell chosen to hold onto that asset or spin it into the company. But let's face it, the alternatives from Michael Dell were just too attractive and it's unlikely that a spin in would've unlocked the value in the way a spinout did, at least not in the near future. So let's take a look at the snapshot of Dell's financials. To give you a sense of where the company stands today, Dell is a company with over a hundred billion in revenue. Last quarter, it did more than 26 billion in revenue and grew at a quite amazing 9% rate for a company that size. >>But because it's a hardware company, primarily its margins are low with operating income, 10% of revenue, and at 21% gross margin with VMware on Dell's income statement before the spin, its gross margins. Were in the low thirties. Now, Dell only spends about 2% of revenue on r and d because because it's so big, it's still a lot of money. And you can see it is cash flow positive. Dell's free cash flow over the trailing 12 month period is 3.7 billion, but that's only 3.5% of trailing 12 month revenue. Dell's Apex, and of course it's hardware maintenance business is recurring revenue and that is only about 5 billion in revenue and it's growing at 8% annually. Now having said that, it's the equivalent of service now's total revenue. Of course, service now is 23% operating margin and 16% free cash flow margin and more than 5 billion in cash on the balance sheet and an 85 billion market cap. >>That's what software will do for you. Now Dell, like most companies, is staring at a challenging macro environment with FX headwinds, inflation, et cetera. You've heard the story and hence it's conservative and contracting revenue guidance. But the balance sheet transformation has been quite amazing. Thanks to VMware's cash flow, Michael Dell and his partners from Silver Lake at all, they put up around $4 billion of their own cash to buy EMC for 67 billion, and of course got VMware in the process. Most of that financing was debt that Dell put on its balance sheet to do the transaction to the tune of 46 billion. It added to the, to the balance sheet debt. Now Dell's debt, the core debt net of its financing operation is now down to 16 billion and it has 7 billion in cash in the balance sheet. So dramatic delta from just a few years ago. So pretty good picture. >>But Dell a hundred billion company is still only valued at 28 billion or around 26 cents on the revenue dollar H HP's revenue multiple is around 60 cents on the revenue dollar. HP Inc. Dell's, you know, laptop and PC competitor is around 45 cents. IBM's revenue multiple is almost two times. By the way, IBM has more than 50 billion in debt thanks to the Red Hat acquisition. And Cisco has a revenue multiple, it's over three x, about 3.3 x currently. So is Dell undervalued? Well, based on these comparisons with its peers, I'd say yes and no. Dell's performance relative to its peers in the market is very strong. It's winning and has an extremely adept go to market machine, but it's lack of software content and it's margin profile leads. One to believe that if it can continue to pull some valuation levers while entering new markets, it can get its valuation well above where it is today. >>So what are some of those levers and what might that look like going forward? Despite the fact that Dell doesn't have a huge software revenue component since spinning out VMware and it doesn't own a cloud, it plays in virtually every part of the hardware market and it can provide infrastructure for pr pretty much any application in any use case and pretty much any industry and pretty much any geography in the world and it can serve those customers. So its size is an advantage. However, the history for hardware heavy companies that try to get bigger has some notable failures, namely hp, which had to split into two businesses, HP Inc. And hp E and ibm, which has had in abysmal decade from a performance standpoint and has had to shrink to grow again and obviously do a massive 34 billion acquisition of Red Hat. So why will Dell do any better than these two? >>Well, it has a fantastic supply chain. It's a founder led company, which makes a cultural difference in our view, and it's actually comfortable with a low margin software, light business model. Most certainly, IBM wasn't comfortable with that and didn't have these characteristics, and HP was kind of just incomprehensible at the end. So Dell in my opinion, is a much better chance of doing well at a hundred billion or over, but we'll see how it navigates through the current headwinds as it's guiding down. Apex is essentially Dell's version of the cloud. Now remember, Dell got started late. HPE is further along from a model standpoint with GreenLake, but Dell has a larger portfolio, so they're gonna try to play on that advantage. But at the end of the day, these as a service offerings are simply ways to bring a utility model to existing customers and generate recurring revenue. >>And that's a good thing because customers will be loyal to an incumbent if it can deliver as a service and reduce risk for for customers. But the real opportunity lies ahead, specifically Dell is embracing the cloud model. It took a while, but they're on board as Matt Baker Dell's senior vice president of corporate strategy likes to say it's not a zero sum game. What it means by that is just because Dell doesn't own its own cloud, it doesn't mean Dell can't build value on top of hyperscale clouds, what we call super cloud. And that's Dell's strategy to take advantage of public cloud CapEx and connect on-prem to the cloud, create a unified experience across clouds and out to the edge that's ambitious and technically it's non-trivial. But listen to Dell's vice chairman and Coco, Jeff Clark, explain this vision, please play the clip. >>You said also technology and business models are tied together and enabler. That's if, if you believe that, then you have to believe that it's a business operating system that they want, They want to leverage whatever they can, and at the end of the day there's, they have to differentiate what they do. Well that, that's >>Exactly right. If I take that and what, what Dave was saying and and I, and I summarize it the following way, if we can take these cloud assets and capabilities, combine them in an orchestrated way to delivery a distributed platform, game over, >>Eh, pretty interesting, right? John Freer called it a business operating system. Essentially, I think of it sometimes as a cloud operating system or cloud operating environment to drive new business value on top of the hyperscale CapEx. Now, is it really game over? As Jeff Clark said, if Dell can do that, I'd say if it had that today, it might be game over for the competition, but this vision will take years to play out. And of course it's gotta be funded and now it's gonna take time. And in this industry it tends to move. Companies tend to move in lockstep. So as often as the case, it's gonna come down to execution and Dell's ability to enter new markets that are ideally, at least from my perspective, higher margin data management, extending data protection into cyber security as an adjacency and of course edge at telco slash 5G opportunities. >>All there for the taking. I mean, look, even if Dell doesn't go after more higher margin software content, it can thrive with a lower margin model just by penetrating new markets and throwing off cash from those markets. But by keeping close to customers and maybe through Tuck in acquisitions, it might be able to find the next nugget beyond today's cloud and on-prem models. And the last thing I'll call out is ecosystem. I say here ecosystem, ecosystem, ecosystem. Because a defining characteristic of a cloud player is ecosystem, and if Apex is Dell's cloud, it has the opportunity to expand that ecosystem dramatically. This is one of the company's biggest opportunities and challenges. At the same time, in my view, it's just scratching the surface on its partner ecosystem. And it's ecosystem today is is both reseller heavy and tech partner heavy. And that's not a bad thing, but in a, but it's starting to evolve more rapidly. >>The snowflake deal is an example of up to stack evolution, but I'd like to see much more out of that snowflake relationship and more relationships like that. Specifically I'd like to see more momentum with data and database. And if we live at a data heavy world, which we do, where the data and the database and data management offerings, you know, coexist and are super important to customers, like to see that inside of Apex, like to see that data play beyond storage, which is really where it is today and it's early days. The point is with Dell's go to market advantage, which which company wouldn't treat Dell like the on-prem hybrid edge super cloud player that I wanna partner with to drive more business. You'd be crazy not to, but Dell has a lot on its plate and we'd like to see some serious acceleration on the ecosystem front. In other words, Dell as both a selling partner and a business enabler with its platform, its programmable infrastructure as a service. And that is a moving target that will rapidly involve. And of course we'll be here watching and reporting. So thanks for watching this preview of Dell Technology Summit 2022. I'm Dave Vte. We hope you enjoy the rest of the program.

(upbeat music) >> The transformation of Dell into Dell EMC, and now Dell Technologies, has been one of the most remarkable stories in the history of the enterprise technology industry. The company has gone from a Wall Street darling rocketship PC company, to a middling enterprise player, forced to go private, to a debt-laden powerhouse that controlled one of the most valuable assets in enterprise tech, i.e., VMware. And now is a $100 billion dollar giant with a low-margin business, a strong balance sheet, and the broadest hardware portfolio in the industry. The financial magic that Dell went through would make anyone's head spin. The last lever of the Dell EMC deal was detailed in Michael Dell's book "Play Nice But Win," in a captivating chapter called "Harry You and the Bolt from the Blue." Michael Dell described how he and his colleagues came up with the final straw of how to finance the deal. If you haven't read it, you should. And of course, after years of successfully integrating EMC and becoming VMware's number-one distribution channel, all of this culminated in the spin-out of VMware from Dell, and a massive wealth-creation milestone, pending, of course, the Broadcom acquisition of VMware. So where's that leave Dell, and what does the future look like for this technology powerhouse? Hello, and welcome to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Dell Technologies Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'll be hosting the program. Now, today in conjunction with the Dell Tech Summit, we're going to hear from four of Dell's senior executives. Tom Sweet, who's the CFO of Dell Technologies. He's going to share his views on the company's position and opportunities going forward. He's going to answer the question, why is Dell a good long-term investment? Then we'll hear from Jeff Boudreau, who's the President of Dell's ISG business. That unit is the largest profit driver of Dell. He's going to talk about the product angle, and specifically, how Dell is thinking about solving the multi-cloud challenge. And then Sam Grocott, who's the Senior Vice President of Marketing, will come on the program and give us the update on APEX, which is Dell's as-a-Service offering, and then the new edge platform called Project Frontier. Now, it's also Cybersecurity Awareness Month, that we're going to see if Sam has, you know, anything to say about that. Then finally, for a company that's nearly 40 years old, Dell actually has some pretty forward-thinking philosophies when it comes to its culture and workforce. And we're going to speak with Jenn Saavedra, who's Dell's Chief Human Resource Officer, about hybrid work, and how Dell is thinking about the future of work. However, before we get into all this, I want to share our independent perspectives on the company, and some research that we'll introduce to frame the program. Now, as you know, we love data here at theCUBE, and one of our partners, ETR, has what we believe is the best spending intentions data for enterprise tech. So here's a graphic that shows ETR's proprietary Net Score methodology on the vertical axis, that's a measure of spending velocity, and on the x-axis is overlap or pervasiveness in the data sample. This is a cut for just the server, the storage, and the client sectors within the ETR taxonomy. So you can see Dell's CSG products, laptops in particular, are dominant on both the x and the y dimensions. CSG is the Client Solutions Group, and accounts for nearly 60% of Dell's revenue, and about half of its operating income. And then the arrow signifies that dot that represents Dell's ISG business, that we're going to talk to Jeff Boudreau about. That's the Infrastructure Solutions Group. Now, ISG accounts for the bulk of the remainder of Dell's business, and it is its, as I said, its most profitable from a margin standpoint. It comprises the EMC storage business, as well as the Dell server business, and Dell's networking portfolio. And as a note, we didn't include networking in that cut. Had we done so, Cisco would've dominated the graphic. And frankly, Dell's networking business isn't industry leading in the same way that PCs, servers, and storage are. And as you can see, the data confirms the leadership position Dell has in its client side, its server, and its storage sectors. But the nuance is, look at that red dotted line at 40% on the vertical axis. That represents a highly elevated Net Score, and every company in the sector is below that line. Now, we should mention that we also filtered the data for those companies with more than a hundred mentions in the survey, but the point remains the same. This is a mature business that generally is lower margin. Storage is the exception, but cloud has put pressure on margins even in that business, in addition to the server space. The last point on this graphic is, we put a box around VMware, and it's prominently present on both the x and y dimensions. VMware participates with purely software-defined high-margin offerings in these spaces, and it gives you a sense of what might have been, had Dell chosen to hold onto that asset or spin it into the company. But let's face it, the alternatives for Michael Dell were just too attractive, and it's unlikely that a spin-in would've unlocked the value in the way a spin-out did, at least not in the near future. So let's take a look at the snapshot of Dell's financials, to give you a sense of where the company stands today. Dell is a company with over $100 billion dollars in revenue. Last quarter, it did more than 26 billion in revenue, and grew at a quite amazing 9% rate, for a company that size. But because it's a hardware company, primarily, its margins are low, with operating income 10% of revenue, and at 21% gross margin. With VMware on Dell's income statement before the spin, its gross margins were in the low 30s. Now, Dell only spends about 2% of revenue on R&D, but because it's so big, it's still a lot of money. And you can see it is cash-flow positive. Dell's free cash flow over the trailing 12-month period is 3.7 billion, but that's only 3.5% of trailing 12-month revenue. Dell's APEX, and of course its hardware maintenance business, is recurring revenue, and that is only about 5 billion in revenue, and it's growing at 8% annually. Now, having said that, it's the equivalent of ServiceNow's total revenue. Of course, ServiceNow has 23% operating margin and 16% free cash-flow margin, and more than $5 billion in cash on the balance sheet, and an $85 billion market cap. That's what software will do for you. Now Dell, like most companies, is staring at a challenging macro environment, with FX headwinds, inflation, et cetera. You've heard the story. And hence it's conservative, and contracting revenue guidance. But the balance sheet transformation has been quite amazing, thanks to VMware's cash flow. Michael Dell and his partners from Silver Lake et al., they put up around $4 billion of their own cash to buy EMC for 67 billion, and of course got VMware in the process. Most of that financing was debt that Dell put on its balance sheet to do the transaction, to the tune of $46 billion it added to the balance sheet debt. Now, Dell's debt, the core debt, net of its financing operation, is now down to 16 billion, and it has $7 billion in cash on the balance sheet. So a dramatic delta from just a few years ago. So, pretty good picture. But Dell, a $100 billion company, is still only valued at 28 billion, or around 26 cents on the revenue dollar. HPE's revenue multiple is around 60 cents on the revenue dollar. HP Inc., Dell's laptop and PC competitor, is around 45 cents. IBM's revenue multiple is almost two times. By the way, IBM has more than $50 billion in debt thanks to the Red Hat acquisition. And Cisco has a revenue multiple that's over 3x, about 3.3x currently. So is Dell undervalued? Well, based on these comparisons with its peers, I'd say yes, and no. Dell's performance, relative to its peers in the market, is very strong. It's winning, and has an extremely adept go-to-market machine, but its lack of software content and its margin profile leads one to believe that if it can continue to pull some valuation levers while entering new markets, it can get its valuation well above where it is today. So what are some of those levers, and what might that look like, going forward? Despite the fact that Dell doesn't have a huge software revenue component since spinning out VMware, and it doesn't own a cloud, it plays in virtually every part of the hardware market. And it can provide infrastructure for pretty much any application in any use case, in pretty much any industry, in pretty much any geography in the world. And it can serve those customers. So its size is an advantage. However, the history for hardware-heavy companies that try to get bigger has some notable failures, namely HP, which had to split into two businesses, HP Inc. and HPE, and IBM, which has had an abysmal decade from a performance standpoint, and has had to shrink to grow again, and obviously do a massive $34 billion acquisition of Red Hat. So why will Dell do any better than these two? Well, it has a fantastic supply chain. It's a founder-led company, which makes a cultural difference, in our view. And it's actually comfortable with a low-margin software-light business model. Most certainly, IBM wasn't comfortable with that, and didn't have these characteristics, and HP was kind of just incomprehensible at the end. So Dell in my opinion, has a much better chance of doing well at 100 billion or over, but we'll see how it navigates through the current headwinds as it's guiding down. APEX is essentially Dell's version of the cloud. Now, remember, Dell got started late. HPE is further along from a model standpoint with GreenLake, but Dell has a larger portfolio, so they're going to try to play on that advantage. But at the end of the day, these as-a-Service offerings are simply ways to bring a utility model to existing customers, and generate recurring revenue. And that's a good thing, because customers will be loyal to an incumbent if it can deliver as-a-Service and reduce risk for customers. But the real opportunity lies ahead. Specifically, Dell is embracing the cloud model. It took a while, but they're on board. As Matt Baker, Dell's Senior Vice President of Corporate Strategy, likes to say, it's not a zero-sum game. What he means by that is, just because Dell doesn't own its own cloud, it doesn't mean Dell can't build value on top of hyperscale clouds. What we call supercloud. And that's Dell's strategy, to take advantage of public cloud capex, and connect on-prem to the cloud, create a unified experience across clouds, and out to the edge. That's ambitious, and technically it's nontrivial. But listen to Dell's Vice Chairman and Co-COO, Jeff Clarke, explain this vision. Please play the clip. >> You said also, technology and business models are tied together, and an enabler. >> That's right. >> If you believe that, then you have to believe that it's a business operating system that they want. They want to leverage whatever they can, and at the end of the day, they have to differentiate what they do. >> Well, that's exactly right. If I take that and what Dave was saying, and I summarize it the following way: if we can take these cloud assets and capabilities, combine them in an orchestrated way to deliver a distributed platform, game over. >> Eh, pretty interesting, right? John Furrier called it a "business operating system." Essentially, I think of it sometimes as a cloud operating system, or cloud operating environment, to drive new business value on top of the hyperscale capex. Now, is it really game over, as Jeff Clarke said, if Dell can do that? Uh, (sucks in breath) I'd say if it had that today, it might be game over for the competition, but this vision will take years to play out. And of course, it's got to be funded. And that's going to take time, and in this industry, it tends to move, companies tend to move in lockstep. So, as often is the case, it's going to come down to execution and Dell's ability to enter new markets that are ideally, at least from my perspective, higher margin. Data management, extending data protection into cybersecurity as an adjacency, and of course, edge and telco/5G opportunities. All there for the taking. I mean, look, even if Dell doesn't go after more higher-margin software content, it can thrive with a lower-margin model just by penetrating new markets and throwing off cash from those markets. But by keeping close to customers, and maybe through tuck-in acquisitions, it might be able to find the next nugget beyond today's cloud and on-prem models. And the last thing I'll call out is ecosystem. I say here, "Ecosystem, ecosystem, ecosystem," because a defining characteristic of a cloud player is ecosystem, and if APEX is Dell's cloud, it has the opportunity to expand that ecosystem dramatically. This is one of the company's biggest opportunities and challenges at the same time, in my view. It's just scratching the surface on its partner ecosystem. And its ecosystem today is both reseller heavy and tech partner heavy. And that's not a bad thing, but it's starting to evolve more rapidly. The Snowflake deal is an example of up-the-stack evolution, but I'd like to see much more out of that Snowflake relationship, and more relationships like that. Specifically, I'd like to see more momentum with data and database. And if we live in a data-heavy world, which we do, where the data and the database and data management offerings, you know, coexist and are super important to customers, I'd like to see that inside of APEX. I'd like to see that data play beyond storage, which is really where it is today, in its early days. The point is, with Dell's go-to-market advantage, which company wouldn't treat Dell like the on-prem, hybrid, edge, supercloud player that I want to partner with to drive more business? You'd be crazy not to. But Dell has a lot on its plate, and we'd like to see some serious acceleration on the ecosystem front. In other words, Dell as both a selling partner and a business enabler with its platform, its programmable Infrastructure-as-a-Service. And that is a moving target that will rapidly evolve. And of course, we'll be here watching and reporting. So thanks for watching this preview of Dell Technologies Summit 2022. I'm Dave Vellante, we hope you enjoy the rest of the program. (upbeat music)