>> John: Hello and welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We got a great conversation on making machine learning easier and more affordable in an era where everybody wants more machine learning and AI. We're featuring Neural Magic with the CEO is also Cube alumni, Brian Steve. CEO, Great to see you Brian. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation. Talk about machine learning. >> Brian: Hey John, happy to be here again. >> John: What a buzz that's going on right now? Machine learning, one of the hottest topics, AI front and center, kind of going mainstream. We're seeing the success of the, of the kind of NextGen capabilities in the enterprise and in apps. It's a really exciting time. So perfect timing. Great, great to have this conversation. Let's start with taking a minute to explain what you guys are doing over there at Neural Magic. I know there's some history there, neural networks, MIT. But the, the convergence of what's going on, this big wave hitting, it's an exciting time for you guys. Take a minute to explain the company and your mission. >> Brian: Sure, sure, sure. So, as you said, the company's Neural Magic and spun out at MIT four plus years ago, along with some people and, and some intellectual property. And you summarize it better than I can cause you said, we're just trying to make, you know, AI that much easier. And so, but like another level of specificity around it is. You know, in the world you have a lot of like data scientists really focusing on making AI work for whatever their use case is. And then the next phase of that, then they're looking at optimizing the models that they built. And then it's not good enough just to work on models. You got to put 'em into production. So, what we do is we make it easier to optimize the models that have been developed and trained and then trying to make it super simple when it comes time to deploying those in production and managing them. >> Brian: You know, we've seen this movie before with the cloud. You start to see abstractions come out. Data science we saw like was like the, the secret art of being like a data scientist now democratization of data. You're kind of seeing a similar wave with machine learning models, foundational models, some call it developers are getting involved. Model complexity's still there, but, but it's getting easier. There's almost like the democratization happening. You got complexity, you got deployment, it's challenges, cost, you got developers involved. So it's like how do you grow it? How do you get more horsepower? And then how do you make developers productive, right? So like, this seems to be the thread. So, so where, where do you see this going? Because there's going to be a massive demand for, I want to do more with my machine learning. But what's the data source? What's the formatting? This kind of a stack develop, what, what are you guys doing to address this? Can you take us through and demystify this, this wave that's hitting, that everyone's seeing? >> Brian: Yeah. Now like you said, like, you know, the democratization of all of it. And that brings me all the way back to like the roots of open source, right? When you think about like, like back in the day you had to build your own tech stack yourself. A lot of people probably probably don't remember that. And then you went, you're building, you're always starting on a body of code or a module that was out there with open source. And I think that's what I equate to where AI has gotten to with what you were talking about the foundational models that didn't really exist years ago. So you really were like putting the layers of your models together in the formulas and it was a lot of heavy lifting. And so there was so much time spent on development. With far too few success cases, you know, to get into production to solve like a business stereo technical need. But as these, what's happening is as these models are becoming foundational. It's meaning people don't have to start from scratch. They're actually able to, you know, the avant-garde now is start with existing model that almost does what you want, but then applying your data set to it. So it's, you know, it's really the industry moving forward. And then we, you know, and, and the best thing about it is open source plays a new dimension, but this time, you know, in the, in the realm of AI. And so to us though, like, you know, I've been like, I spent a career focusing on, I think on like the, not just the technical side, but the consumption of the technology and how it's still way too hard for somebody to actually like, operationalize technology that all those vendors throw at them. So I've always been like empathetic the user around like, you know what their job is once you give them great technology. And so it's still too difficult even with the foundational models because what happens is there's really this impedance mismatch between the development of the model and then where, where the model has to live and run and be deployed and the life cycle of the model, if you will. And so what we've done in our research is we've developed techniques to introduce what's known as sparsity into a machine learning model. It's already been developed and trained. And what that sparsity does is that unlocks by making that model so much smaller. So in many cases we can make a model 90 to 95% smaller, even smaller than that in research. So, and, and so by doing that, we do that in a way that preserves all the accuracy out of the foundational model as you talked about. So now all of a sudden you get this much smaller model just as accurate. And then the even more exciting part about it is we developed a software-based engine called Deep Source. And what that, what the Inference Runtime does is takes that now sparsified model and it runs it, but because you sparsified it, it only needs a fraction of the compute that it, that it would've needed otherwise. So what we've done is make these models much faster, much smaller, and then by pairing that with an inference runtime, you now can actually deploy that model anywhere you want on commodity hardware, right? So X 86 in the cloud, X 86 in the data center arm at the edge, it's like this massive unlock that happens because you get the, the state-of-the-art models, but you get 'em, you know, on the IT assets and the commodity infrastructure. That is where all the applications are running today. >> John: I want to get into the inference piece and the deep sparse you mentioned, but I first have to ask, you mentioned open source, Dave and I with some fellow cube alumnis. We're having a chat about, you know, the iPhone and Android moment where you got proprietary versus open source. You got a similar thing happening with some of these machine learning modules where there's a lot of proprietary things happening and there's open source movement is growing. So is there a balance there? Are they all trying to do the same thing? Is it more like a chip, you know, silicons involved, all kinds of things going on that are really fascinating from a science. What's your, what's your reaction to that? >> Brian: I think it's like anything that, you know, the way we talk about AI you think had been around for decades, but the reality is it's been some of the deep learning models. When we first, when we first started taking models that the brain team was working on at Google and billing APIs around them on Google Cloud where the first cloud to even have AI services was 2015, 2016. So when you think about it, it's really been what, 6 years since like this thing is even getting lift off. So I think with that, everybody's throwing everything at it. You know, there's tons of funded hardware thrown at specialty for training or inference new companies. There's legacy companies that are getting into like AI now and whether it's a, you know, a CPU company that's now building specialized ASEX for training. There's new tech stacks proprietary software and there's a ton of asset service. So it really is, you know, what's gone from nascent 8 years ago is the wild, wild west out there. So there's a, there's a little bit of everything right now and I think that makes sense because at the early part of any industry it really becomes really specialized. And that's the, you know, showing my age of like, you know, the early pilot of the two thousands, you know, red Hat people weren't running X 86 in enterprise back then and they thought it was a toy and they certainly weren't running open source, but you really, and it made sense that they weren't because it didn't deliver what they needed to at that time. So they needed specialty stacks, they needed expensive, they needed expensive hardware that did what an Oracle database needed to do. They needed proprietary software. But what happens is that commoditizes through both hardware and through open source and the same thing's really just starting with with AI. >> John: Yeah. And I think that's a great point before we to call that out because in any industry timing's everything, right? I mean I remember back in the 80s, late 80s and 90s, AI, you know, stuff was going on and it just wasn't, there wasn't enough horsepower, there wasn't enough tech. >> Brian: Yep. >> John: You mentioned some of the processing. So AI is this industry that has all these experts who have been itch scratching that itch for decades. And now with cloud and custom silicon. The tech fundamental at the lower end of the stack, if you will, on the performance side is significantly more performant. It's there you got more capabilities. >> Brian: Yeah. >> John: Now you're kicking into more software, faster software. So it just seems like we're at a tipping point where finally it's here, like that AI moment or machine learning and now data is, is involved. So this is where organizations I see really jumping in with the CEO mandate. Hey team, make ML work for us. Go figure it out. It's got to be an advantage for us. >> Brian: Yeah. >> John: So now they go, okay boss, we will. So what, what do they do? What's the steps does an enterprise take to get machine learning into their organizations? Cause you know, it's coming down from the boards, you know, how does this work for rob? >> Brian: Yeah. Like the, you know, the, what we're seeing is it's like anything, like it's, whether that was source adoption or whether that was cloud adoption, it always starts usually with one person. And increasingly it is the CEO, which realizes they're getting further behind the competition because they're not leaning in, you know, faster. But typically it really comes down to like a really strong practitioner that's inside the organization, right? And, that realizes that the number one goal isn't doing more and just training more models and and necessarily being proprietary about it. It's really around understanding the art of the possible. Something that's grounded in the art of the possible, what, what deep learning can do today and what business outcomes you can deliver, you know, if you can employ. And then there's well proven paths through that. It's just that because of where it's been, it's not that industrialized today. It's very much, you know, you see ML project by ML project is very snowflakey, right? And that was kind of the early days of open source as well. And so, we're just starting to get to the point where it's getting easier, it's getting more industrialized, there's less steps, there's less burdensome on developers, there's less burdensome on, on the deployment side. And we're trying to bring that, that whole last mile by saying, you know what? Deploying deep learning and AI models should be as easy as the as to deploy your application, right? You shouldn't have to take an extra step to deploy an AI model. It shouldn't have to require a new hardware, it shouldn't require a new process, a new DevOps model. It should be as simple as what you're already doing. >> John: What is the best practice for companies to effectively bring an acceptable level of machine learning and performance into their organizations? >> Brian: Yeah, I think like the, the number one start is like what you hinted at before is they, they have to know the use case. They have to, in most cases, you're going to find across every industry you know, that that problem's been tackled by some company, right? And then you have to have the best practice around fine-tuning the models already exist. So fine tuning that existing model. That foundational model on your unique dataset. You, you know, if you are in medical instruments, it's not good enough to identify that it's a medical instrument in the picture. You got to know what type of medical instrument. So there's always a fine tuning step. And so we've created open source tools that make it easy for you to do two things at once. You can fine tune that existing foundational model, whether that's in the language space or whether that's in the vision space. You can fine tune that on your dataset. And at the same time you get an optimized model that comes out the other end. So you get kind of both things. So you, you no longer have to worry about you're, we're freeing you from worrying about the complexity of that transfer learning, if you will. And we're freeing you from worrying about, well where am I going to deploy the model? Where does it need to be? Does it need to be on a device, an edge, a data center, a cloud edge? What kind of hardware is it? Is there enough hardware there? We're liberating you from all of that. Because what you want, what you can count on is there'll always be commodity capability, commodity CPUs where you want to deploy in abundance cause that's where your application is. And so all of a sudden we're just freeing you of that, of that whole step. >> John: Okay. Let's get into deep sparse because you mentioned that earlier. What inspired the creation of deep sparse and how does it differ from any other solutions in the market that are out there? >> Brian: Sure. So, so where unique is it? It starts by, by two things. One is what the industry's pretty good at from the optimization side is they're good at like this thing called quantization, which turns like, you know, big numbers into small numbers, lower precision. So a 32 bit representation of a, of AI weight into a bit. And they're good at like cutting out layers, which also takes away accuracy. What we've figured out is to take those, the industry techniques for those that are best practice, but we combined it with unstructured varsity. So by reducing that model by 90 to 95% in size, that's great because it's made it smaller. But we've taken that when it's the deep sparse engine, when you deploy it that looks at that model and says, because it's so much smaller, I no longer have to run the part of the model that's been essentially sparsified. So what that's done is, it's meant that you no longer need a supercomputer to run models because there's not nearly as much math and processing as there was before the model was optimized. So now what happens is, every CPU platform out there has, has an enormous amount of compute because we've sparsified the rest of it away. So you can pick a, you can pick your, your laptop and you have enough compute to run state-of-the-art models. The second thing that, and you need a software engine to do that cause it ignores the parts of the models. It doesn't need to run, which is what like specialized hardware can't do. The second part is it's then turned into a memory efficiency problem. So it's really around just getting memory, getting the models loaded into the cash of the computer and keeping it there. Never having to go back out to memory. So, so our techniques are both, we reduce the model size and then we only run the part of the model that matters and then we keep it all in cash. And so what that does is it gets us to like these, these low, low latency faster and we're able to increase, you know, the CPU processing by an order magnitude. >> John: Yeah. That low latency is key. And you got developers, you know, co coding super fast. We'll get to the developer angle in a second. I want to just follow up on this, this motivation behind the, the deep sparse because you know, as we were talking earlier before we came on camera about the old days, I mean, not too long ago, virtualization and VMware abstracted away the os from, from the hardware rights and the server virtualization changed the game. >> Brian: Yeah. >> John: And that basically invented cloud computing as we know it today. So, so we see that abstraction. >> Brian: Yeah. >> John: There seems to be a motivation behind abstracting the way the machine learning models away from the hardware. And that seems to be bringing advantages to the AI growth. Can you elaborate on, is that true? And it's, what's your comment? >> Brian: It's true. I think it's true for us. I don't think the industry's there yet, honestly. Cause I think the industry still is of that mindset that if I took, if it took these expensive GPUs to train my model, then I want to run my model on those same expensive GPUs. Because there's often like not a separation between the people that are developing AI and the people that have to manage and deploy at where you need it. So the reality is, is that that's everything that we're after. Like, do we decrease the cost? Yes. Do we make the models smaller? Yes. Do we make them faster? A yes. But I think the most amazing power is that we've turned AI into a docker based microservice. And so like who in the industry wants to deploy their apps the old way on a os without virtualization, without docker, without Kubernetes, without microservices, without service mesh without serverless. You want all those tools for your apps by converting AI models. So they can be run inside a docker container with no apologies around latency and performance cause it's faster. You get the best of that whole world that you just talked about, which is, you know, what we're calling, you know, software delivered AI. So now the AI lives in the same world. Organizations that have gone through that digital cloud transformation with their app infrastructure. AI fits into that world. >> John: And this is where the abstraction concepts matter. When you have these inflection points, the convergence of compute data, machine learning that powers AI, it really becomes a developer opportunity. Because now applications and businesses, when they actually go through the digital transformation, their businesses are completely transformed. There is no IT. Developers are the application. They are the company, right? So AI will be part of whatever business or app will be out there. So there is a application developer angle here. Brian, can you explain >> Brian: Oh completely. >> John: how they're going to use this? Because you mentioned docker container microservice, I mean this really is an insane flipping of the script for developers. >> Brian: Yeah. >> John: So what's that look like? >> Brian: Well speak, it's because like AI's kind of, I mean, again, like it's come so fast. So you figure there's my app team and here's my AI team, right? And they're in different places and the AI team is dragging in specialized infrastructure in support of that as well. And that's not how app developers think. Like they've ran on fungible infrastructure that subtracted and virtualized forever, right? And so what we've done is we've, in addition to fitting into that world that they, that they like, we've also made it simple for them for they don't have to be a machine learning engineer to be able to experiment with these foundational models and transfer learning 'em. We've done that. So they can do that in a couple of commands and it has a simple API that they can either link to their application directly as a library to make difference calls or they can stand it up as a standalone, you know, scale up, scale out inference server. They get two choices. But it really fits into that, you know, you know that world that the modern developer, whether they're just using Python or C or otherwise, we made it just simple. So as opposed to like Go learn something else, they kind of don't have to. So in a way though, it's made it. It's almost made it hard because people expect when we talk to 'em for the first time to be the old way. Like, how do you look like a piece of hardware? Are you compatible with my existing hardware that runs ML? Like, no, we're, we're not. Because you don't need that stack anymore. All you need is a library called to make your prediction and that's it. That's it. >> John: Well, I mean, we were joking on Twitter the other day with someone saying, is AI a pet or a cattle? Right? Because they love their, their AI bots right now. So, so I'd say pet there. But you look at a lot of, there's going to be a lot of AI. So on a more serious note, you mentioned in microservices, will deep sparse have an API for developers? And how does that look like? What do I do? >> Brian: Yeah. >> John: tell me what my, as a developer, what's the roadmap look like? What's the >> Brian: Yeah, it, it really looks, it really can go in both modes. It can go in a standalone server mode where it handles, you know, rest API and it can scale out with ES as the workload comes up and scale back and like try to make hardware do that. Hardware may scale back, but it's just sitting there dormant, you know, so with this, it scales the same way your application needs to. And then for a developer, they basically just, they just, the PIP install de sparse, you know, has one commanded to do an install, and then they do two calls, really. The first call is a library call that the app makes to create the model. And models really already trained, but they, it's called a model create call. And the second command they do is they make a call to do a prediction. And it's as simple as that. So it's, it's AI's as simple as using any other library that the developers are already using, which I, which sounds hard to fathom because it is just so simplified. >> John: Software delivered AI. Okay, that's a cool thing. I believe in it personally. I think that's the way to go. I think there's going to be plenty of hardware options if you look at the advances of cloud players that got more silicon coming out. Yeah. More GPU. I mean, there's more instance, I mean, everything's out there right now. So the question is how does that evolve in your mind? Because that's seems to be key. You have open source projects emerging. What, what path does this take? Is there a parallel mental model that you see, Brian, that is similar? You mentioned open source earlier. Is it more like a VMware virtualization thing or is it more of a cloud thing? Is there Yeah. Is it going to evolve in a, in a trajectory that looks similar to what we might've seen in the past? >> Brian: Yeah, we're, you know, when I, when when I got involved with the company, what I, when I thought about it and I was reasoning about it, like, do you, you know, you want to, like, we all do when you want to join something full-time. I thought about it and said, where will the industry eventually get to? Right? To fully realize the value of, of deep learning and what's plausible as it evolves. And to me, like I, I know it's the old adage of, you know, you know, software, its hardware, cloudy software. But it truly was like, you know, we can solve these problems in software. Like there's nothing special that's happening at the hardware layer and the processing AI. The reality is that it's just early in the industry. So the view that that we had was like, this is eventually the best place where the industry will be, is the liberation of being able to run AI anywhere. Like you're really not democratizing, you democratize the model. But if you can't run the model anywhere you want because these models are getting bigger and bigger with these large language models, then you're kind of not democratizing. And if you got to go and like by a cluster to run this thing on. So the democratization comes by if all of a sudden that model can be consumed anywhere on demand without planning, without provisioning, wherever infrastructure is. And so I think that's with or without Neural Magic, that's where the industry will go and will get to. I think we're the leaders, leaders in getting it there. It's right because we're more advanced on these techniques. >> John: Yeah. And your background too. You've seen OpenStack, pre-cloud, you saw open source grow and still exponentially growing. And so you have the same similar dynamic with machine learning models growing. And they're also segmenting into almost a, an ML stack or foundational model as we talk about. So you're starting to see the formation of tooling inference. So a lot of components coming. It's almost a stack, it's almost a, it literally is like an operating system problem space, you know? How do you run things, how do you link things? How do you bring things together? Is that what's going on here? Is this like a data modeling operating environment kind of red hat type thing going on? Like. >> Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Like I think there is, you know, I thought about that too. And I think there is the role of like distribution, because the industrialization not happening fast enough of this. Like, can I go back to like every customers, every, every user does it in their own kind of way. Like it's not, everyone's a little bit of a snowflake. And I think that's okay. There's definitely plenty of companies that want to come in and say, well, this is the way it's going to be and we industrialize it as long as you do it our way. The reality is technology doesn't get industrialized by one company just saying, do it our way. And so that's why like we've taken the approach through open source by saying like, Hey, you haven't really industrialized it if you said. We made it simple, but you always got to run AI here. Yeah, right. You only like really industrialize it if you break it down into components that are simple to use and they work integrated in the stack the way you want them to. And so to me, that first principles was getting thing into microservices and dockers that could be run on VMware, OpenShare on the cloud in the edge. And so that's the, that's the real part that we're happening with. The other part, like I do agree, like I think it's going to quickly move into less about the model. Less about the training of the model and the transfer learning, you know, the data set of the model. We're taking away the complexity of optimization. Giving liberating deployment to be anywhere. And I think the last mile, John is going to be around the ML ops around that. Because it's easy to think of like soft now that it's just a software problem, we've turned it into a software problem. So it's easy to think of software as like kind of a point release, but that's not the reality, right? It's a life cycle. And it's, and so I think ML very much brings in the what is the lifecycle of that deployment? And, you know, you get into more interesting conversations, to be honest than like, once you've deployed in a docking container is around like model drift and accuracy and the dataset changes and the user changes is how do you become from an ML perspective of where of that sending signal back retraining. And, and that's where I think a lot of the, in more of the innovation's going to start to move there. >> John: Yeah. And software also, the software problem, the software opportunity as well is developer focused. And if you look at the cloud native landscape now, similar stacks developing a lot of components. A lot of things to, to stitch together a lot of things that are automating under the hood. A lot of developer productivity conversations. I think this is going to go down that same road. I want to get your thoughts because developers will set the pace. And this is something that's clear in this next wave developer productivity. They're the defacto standards bodies. They will decide what microservices check, API check. Now, skill gap is going to be a problem because it's relatively new. So model sprawl, model sizes, proprietary versus open. There has to be a way to kind of crunch that down into a, like a DevOps, like just make it, get the developer out of the, the muck. So what's your view? Are we early days like that? Or what's the young kid in college studying CS or whatever degree who comes into this with, with both feet? What are they doing? >> Brian: I'll probably say like the, the non-popular answer to that. A little bit is it's happening so fast that it's going to get kind of boring fast. Meaning like, yeah, you could go to school and go to MIT, right? Sorry. Like, and you could get a hold through end like becoming a model architect, like inventing the next model, right? And the layers and combining 'em and et cetera, et cetera. And then what operators and, and building a model that's bigger than the last one and trains faster, right? And there will be those people, right? That actually, like they're building the engines the same way. You know, I grew up as an infrastructure software developer. There's not a lot of companies that hire those anymore because they're all sitting inside of three big clouds. Yeah. Right? So you better be a good app developer, but I think what you're going to see is before you had to be everything, you had to be the, if you were going to use infrastructure, you had to know how to build infrastructure. And I think the same thing's true around is quickly exiting ML is to be able to use ML in your company, you better be like, great at every aspect of ML, including every intricacy inside of the model and every operation's doing, that's quickly changing. Like, you're going to start with a starting point. You know, in the future you're not going to be like cracking open these GPT models, you're going to just be pulling them off the shelf, fine tuning 'em and go. You don't have to invent it. You don't have to understand it. And I think that's going to be a pivot point, you know, in the industry between, you know, what's the future? What's, what's the future of a, a data scientist? ML engineer researcher look like? >> John: I think that's, the outcome's going to be determined. I mean, you mentioned, you know, doing it yourself what an SRE is for a Google with the servers scale's huge. So yeah, it might have to, at the beginning get boring, you get obsolete quickly, but that means it's progressing. So, The scale becomes huge. And that's where I think it's going to be interesting when we see that scale. >> Brian: Yep. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. And we always, and, and what I've always said, and much the, again, the distribute into my ML team is that I want every developer to be as adept at being able take advantage of ML as non ML engineer, right? It's got to be that simple. And I think, I think it's getting there. I really do. >> John: Well, Brian, great, great to have you on theCUBE here on this cube conversation. As part of the startup showcase that's coming up. You're going to be featured. Or your company would featured on the upcoming ABRA startup showcase on making machine learning easier and more affordable as more machine learning models come in. You guys got deep sparse and some great technology. We're going to dig into that next time. I'll give you the final word right now. What do you see for the company? What are you guys looking for? Give a plug for the company right now. >> Brian: Oh, give a plug that I haven't already doubled in as the plug. >> John: You're hiring engineers, I assume from MIT and other places. >> Brian: Yep. I think like the, the biggest thing is like, like we're on the developer side. We're here to make this easy. The majority of inference today is, is on CPUs already, believe it or not, as much as kind of, we like to talk about hardware and specialized hardware. The majority is already on CPUs. We're basically bringing 95% cost savings to CPUs through this acceleration. So, but we're trying to do it in a way that makes it community first. So I think the, the shout out would be come find the Neural Magic community and engage with us and you'll find, you know, a thousand other like-minded people in Slack that are willing to help you as well as our engineers. And, and let's, let's go take on some successful AI deployments. >> John: Exciting times. This is, I think one of the pivotal moments, NextGen data, machine learning, and now starting to see AI not be that chat bot, just, you know, customer support or some basic natural language processing thing. You're starting to see real innovation. Brian Stevens, CEO of Neural Magic, bringing the magic here. Thanks for the time. Great conversation. >> Brian: Thanks John. >> John: Thanks for joining me. >> Brian: Cheers. Thank you. >> John: Okay. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California for this cube conversation with Brian Stevens. Thanks for watching.

(bright intro music) >> Full stack observability is all the rage today. As businesses lean in to digital, customer experience becomes ever more important, why? Well, it's obvious. Fickle consumers can switch brands in the blink of an eye or the click of a mouse. Technology companies have sprung into action, and the observability space is getting pretty crowded in an effort to simplify the process of figuring out the root cause of application performance problems without an army of PhDs and lab coats, also known as endlessly digging through logs, for example. We see decades-old software companies that have traditionally done monitoring or log analytics and/or application performance management stepping up their game. These established players, you know, they typically have deep feature sets and sometimes purpose built tools that attack one particular segment of the marketplace, and now, they're pivoting through M&A and some organic development trying to fill gaps in their portfolio, and then you got all these new entrants coming to the market claiming end to end visibility across the so-called modern cloud and now edge-native stacks. Meanwhile, cloud players are gaining traction and participating through a combination of native tooling combined with strong ecosystems to address this problem, but, you know, recent survey research from ETR confirms our thesis that no one company has at all. Here's the thing. Customers just want to figure out the root cause as quickly and efficiently as possible. It's one thing to observe the stack end to end, but the question is who is automating the observers? And that's why we're here today. Hello, my name is Dave Vellante, and welcome to this special "CUBE" presentation where we dig into root cause analysis and, specifically, how one company, Zebrium, is using unsupervised machine learning to detect anomalies and pinpoint root causes and delivering it as an automated service. In this session, we have two deep dives. First, we're going to dig into this exciting new field of RCA, root cause as a service, with two of the founders and technical experts behind Zebrium, and then we bring in two technical experts from Cisco, an early Zebrium customer who ran a POC with Zebrium's service, automating and identifying root cause problems within four very well established and well-known Cisco product lines including Webex client and UCS. I was pretty amazed at the results, and I think you'll be impressed as well. So thanks for being here. Let's get started with me right now is Larry Lancaster who's a founder and CTO of Zebrium, and he's joined by Rod Bagg who's a founder and Vice-President of Engineering at the company. Gents, welcome, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks. >> (indistinct). >> To be here. >> Great to be here. >> All right, Rod, talk to me. Talk to me about software downtime, what root cause means, all the buzzwords in your domain, MTTR and SLO, what do we need to know? >> Yeah, I mean, it's like you said. I mean, it's extremely important to our customers and to most businesses out there to drive up time and avoid as much downtime as possible. So, you know, when you think about it, all of these businesses, most companies nowadays, either their product is software and it's running, you know, running on the web, and that that's how you get a point click or their business depends on it and, you know, internal systems to drive their business and to run it. Now, when that is down, that is hugely impacting to them. So if you take a look, you know, way back, you know, 20, 30 years ago, software was simple. You know, there wasn't much to it. It was pretty monolithic, and maybe it took a couple of people to maintain it and keep it running. It wasn't really anything complicated about it. It was a single tenant piece of software. Today's software is so complicated, often running, you know, maybe hundreds of services to keep that or to actually implement what that software is doing. So as you point out, you know, enter the sort of observability space and the tools that are now in use to help monitor that software and make sure when something goes wrong, they know about it, but there's kind of an interesting stat around the observability space. So when you look at observability in the context or through the lens of the cost of downtime, it's really interesting. So observability tools are about a $20 billion market, okay? But the cost of downtime, even with that in place, is still hundreds of billions of dollars. So you're not taking much of a bite out of what the real problem is. You have to solve root cause and get to that fast. So it's all great to know that something went wrong, but you got to know why, and it it's our contention here that, you know, really, when you take a look at the observability space, you have metrics. That's a great tool. I mean, there's lots of great tools out there, you know, around metrics monitoring that's going to tell you when something went wrong. It's very rarely it's going to tell you why. Similarly for tracing, it's going to point you to where the issue is. It's going to take you through that stack and probably pinpoint where you're being, you know, where it's happening or where something is running slow potentially. So that's great, but again, the root cause of why it's happening is going to be buried in log files, and I can expand on that a little bit more, but, you know, when you're a software developer, and you're writing your software, those log files are a wealth of information. It's just a set of breadcrumbs that are littered with facts about how the software is behaving and why it's doing what it's doing or why it went wrong, and it's that that really gets you to the root cause very fast, and that's, our contention is that these software systems are so complex nowadays, and that the root cause is lying in those logs. So how do you get there fast? You know, we would contend that you better automate that or you're just doomed for failure, and that's where we come in. >> Great. >> Getting to that request. >> Thank you, Rod. You know, it's interesting. You talk about the $20 billion market. There's an analogy with security, right? We spend 80, $100 billion a year on securing our infrastructure, and yet we lose, probably, closer to a trillion dollars a year in breaches, and there's a similar analogy here. 20 billion could be 5x in downtime impacts or more. Okay, let's go to Larry. Tell us a little bit more about Zebrium. I'm interested always to ask a founder why you started the company. Rod touched on that a little bit. You guys have invented this concept of RCAs. What does it mean? What problems does it solve? And how does it solve the problem? Let's get into it. >> Yeah, hey, thanks, Dave. So I think when you said, you know, who's automating the observer? That's a great way to think about it because what observability really means is it's a property of a system that means you can see into it. You can observe the internal state, and that makes it easier to troubleshoot, right? But the problem is if it's too complicated, you just push the bottleneck up to your eyeball. There's only so much a person can filter through manually, right? And I love the way you put that. So that's a great way to think about it is automating the observer. Now, of course, it means that, you know, you reduce your MTTR, you meet your service level objectives, all that stuff, you improve customer experience, that's all true, but it's important to step back and realize like we have cracked a real nut here. People have been trying to figure out how to automate this part of sort of the troubleshooting experience, this human part of finding the root cause indicators for a long time, and until Zebrium came along, I would argue no one's really done it right. So, you know, I think it's also important, you know, as we step back, we can probably look forward five to 10 years and say, "Everyone's going to look back and say, 'How did we do all this manually?'" You're going to see this sort of last mile of observability and troubleshooting is going to be automated everywhere because otherwise, you know, people are just, they're not going to be able to scale their business. So, you know, I think one more thing that's important to point out is, you know, I think Zebrium, you know, it's one thing to have the technology, but we've learned we need to deliver it right where people are today. You can't just expect people to dive into a new tool. So, you know, we're looking at, you know, if you look at Zebrium, you'll put us on your dashboard, and we don't care what kind of a dashboard it is. It could be, you know, Datadog, New Relic, Elastic, Dynatrace, Grafana, AppDynamics, ScienceLogic, we don't care. You know, they're all our friends. So we're more interested in getting to that root cause than trying to fight, you know, these incumbents and all that stuff, yeah. >> Yeah, so interesting. Again, another analogy I think about, you know, you talked about automation, where to look back, and say, "This is what- We're never going to do this again." It's like provisioning LANs. Nobody provisioned LANs anymore. It's all automated. >> That's correct. >> So, Larry, stay with you. The skeptic in me says, "This sounds amazing," but if, you know, it probably too good to be true. Tell us how it works. >> Yeah, so that's interesting. So Cisco came along and they were equally skeptical. So what they did was they took a couple of months, and they did a very detailed study, and they got together 192 incidents across four product lines where they knew that the root cause was in the logs, and they knew what that root cause was because they'd had their best engineers, you know, work on those cases and take detailed notes of the incidents that had taken place, and so they ran that data through the Zebrium software, and what they found was that in more than 95% of those incidents, Zebrium reflected the correct root cause indicators at the correct time. Like that blew us away. When we saw that kind of evidence, Dave, I have to tell you, everyone was just jumping up and down. It was like, you know, it was like the Apollo Command Center, you know, when they finally, (Dave laughs) you know, touchdown on the moon kind of thing. So, you know, it's really exciting at a point in time to be at the company, like just seeing everything finally being proven out according to this vision. I'm going to tell you one more story, which is actually one of my favorites, because we got a chance to work with Seagate Lyve Cloud. So they're, you know, a hyper modern, you know, SaaS business. They're an S3 competitor. Zoom has their files stored on Lyve Cloud to give, you know, to let you know who they are. So, essentially, what happened was they were in alpha, in their early access, and they had an outage, and it was pretty bad. I mean, it went on for longer than a day, actually, before they were completely restored, and it was, you know, fortunately, for them, it was early access. So no one was expecting, you know, uptime, you know, service level objectives and so on, but they were scared because they realized if something like this happens in production, you know, they're screwed. So what they did was they saw Zebrium, they did some research, they saw Zebrium. They went in a staging environment, recreated the exact (indistinct) that they'd had, and what they saw was, immediately, Zebrium pops up a root cause report that tells them exactly the root cause that they took over a day to find. These are the kind of stories that let us know we're onto something transformational. >> Yeah, that's great. I mean, you guys are jumping up and down. I'm sure, we're going to hear from Cisco later. I bet you, they were jumping up and down, too, 'cause they didn't have to do all that heavy lifting anymore. So Rod, Larry's just sort of implying that or, actually, you guys both talked about that your tool's agnostic. So how does one actually use the service? How do I deploy it? >> Yeah, so let me step back. So when we talk about logs, right? Like, you know, all these red crumbs being in logs and everything else. So, you know, they are a great wealth of, you know, information, but people hate dealing with them. I mean, they hate having to go in and figure out what log to look at. In fact, you know, we had one of our, or we've heard from several of our customers now prior to using Zebrium, but when they're, you know, have some issue, and they know there's something wrong, something on their dashboard has told them that something's wrong, maybe a metrics is, you know, taken a blip or something's happened that they know there's a problem, we've heard from them that it can take like a number of hours just to get to the right set of logs, like figuring out over these hundreds of services where the logs are to get to them, maybe searching in a log manager, just to get into the right context even can take hours. So, you know, that's obviously the problem we solve, but, you know, we don't want them just looking at logs. I mean, you know, we don't want to put 'em back in the thing they don't like doing 'cause people don't do what they don't like doing. So we put it up on the dashboard. So if something is going wrong with your metrics, and that's the indicator or maybe it's something with tracing that you're sort of digging through now that you know something's wrong, we will be right on that same dashboard. So we're deployed as a SaaS service. You send us your logs. You click on one of our integrations, and we integrate with all these tools that Larry's talked about, and when we detect anything that is a root cause report, it will show up on your dashboard in the same timeline as those blips in your metrics. So when you see something going wrong, and you know there's an issue, take a look at the portion of your dashboard that is us, and we're going to tell you why. We're going to get you to the why that went wrong. Not no other work could be- You can, you know, also click down and click through to us so that you land up in our portal if you want to do some more digging around if you need to or whatever, maybe to get some context, what have you, but it's fair that you ever need to do that. The answer should be right there on your dashboard, and that's how we expect people to use it. We don't want them digging in logs and going through things. We want it to be right in their workflow. >> Great, thank you, Larry. So Rod, we talked about Cisco. We're going to hear more from them in a moment and Seagate. I would think this is like a perfect solution for a SaaS provider, anybody doing AIOps, do you have some examples of those types of firms leaning into this? >> Yeah, a couple of great, well, I mean, we got many of them, but couple that I'll touch on. We have an actual AIOps company that was looking for, you know, sort of some complimentary technology and so on, and so they decided to just put us through our paces by having one of their own SREs sign up for our service in our SaaS environment and send the logs from their system to us, you know, and just see how we did. So it turned out we ended up talking back to this SRE like a week after he had installed the product, you know, signed up, and then, you know, started sending us logs, and, you know, he was hemming and hawing saying that he was busy like, you know, like every SRE is, and that he didn't have a chance to really do much with us yet, and, you know, we just, you know, having this conversation on the phone, and he comes to tell us that, "Yeah, I've been busy because we had this, you know, terrible outage like, you know, five days ago," and we said like, "Okay, did you actually look on the Zebrium dashboard?" (laughs) And he goes, "You know what? I didn't even think to do it yet. I mean, I'd just been so busy and frazzled." So we have an integration with that company. He hadn't put that integration in so it wasn't in his dashboard yet, but it was certainly on ours. So he went there and he looks on the day like, you know, on the time range of when he had this incident, and right at the very top of the page on our portal was the incident with the root cause, and he was flabbergasted. It literally would've saved him hours and hours and hours. They had this issue going on for over 24 hours, and we had the answer right there in five minutes, and it was crazy, and we get that kind of story. It's just like the Seagate one. If you use us and you have a problem, we're going to detect it, and you're going to hear from Cisco how successful we are at detecting things. I mean, it'll be there when you have a problem. In SaaS companies, you know, one of our customers is Archera. They do cost optimizations for cloud properties, you know, for AWS optimization, Google cloud, and so on, but they use our software, and they have a lot of interaction, obviously, with these cloud vendors and the APIs of those cloud vendors. So, you know, in order to figure out you're costing at AWS, they're using all those APIs. So it turned out, you know, they had some issue where their services were breaking and we had that root cause report right on the screen, again, within five minutes that was pointing to an API problem with Google, and they had changed one of their APIs, and Archera was not aware of it. So their stuff was breaking because of a change downstream that we had caught, and I'll just tell you one last one because it's somewhat related to one of these cloud vendors of, you know, big cloud vendor who had an outage couple of months ago, and it's interesting because, you know, lot of our customers will set up shared Slack channels with us where we're monitoring or seeing their incidents as well as they are. So we get a little Slack representation of the incident that we detected for them or the root cause that we've detected for them, and that's in a shared community channel. So we could see this happening when that AWS outage happened. We could see our customers getting impacted by that AWS outage and the root cause of what was going on there in AWS that was impacting our customers, that was showing up in our incidents. Now, we didn't obviously, you know, have the very root cause of what was going on in AWS per se, but we were getting to the root cause of why our customer's applications were failing, and that was because of issues going on at AWS. >> Very interesting. I mean, I think one of your biggest challenge is going to be getting people's attention because these SREs is so busy, their hair's on fire. (all laughs) You know, he's like, "Hey, chap, I'm going to show you, look at this." >> I tell you. You get their attention, they love it. I mean, this AIOps company, I didn't even tell you the punchline there, but, you know, they had this incident that occurred that we found and, quite literally, the next week, they ended up signing up as a paid customer, so. >> That's great, and Larry, give you the last word. I mean, you know, Rod was talking about, you know, changes in APIs, and, you know, there's still a lot of scripts out there. You guys, if I understand it correctly, run both as a service in the cloud and you can run on-prem, which is important because there's a lot of sensitive information in logs and people don't want to leave. >> That's right, absolutely. >> But, yeah, close it out here. >> Yeah, I mean, you can, that's right, you can run it on-prem, just like we run it in our cloud. You can run it in your cloud or on your own infrastructure. Now, that's all true. You know, I think the one hurdle now that we have left as a company is getting the word out and getting people to believe that this is actually possible and try it for themselves. You don't believe it? Do a POC, try it yourself. And, you know, people have become so jaded by the lack of, you know, real sort of innovation in the software industry for the last 10 years that it's hard to get people to... But guys, you got to give it a shot. I'm telling you. I'm telling you right now, it works, and you'll hear more about that from one of our customers in a minute. >> Alright guys, thanks so much. Great story, really appreciate you sharing. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, thanks, Dave. Appreciate the time. >> Okay, in a moment, we're going to hear from Cisco who is the customer in this case example, and a company that is... Look, they have quite an impressive suite of observability tooling, and they've done a pretty compelling proof of concept with Zebrium using real data on some Cisco products that you've heard of like Webex. So stay tuned and learn about how you can really take advantage of this new technology called root cause as a service. You're watching "theCUBE", the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (bright outro music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. This is Data as Code, The Future of Enterprise Data and Analytics. This is also season two, episode two of our ongoing series with exciting partners from the AWS ecosystem who are here to talk with us about data and analytics. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Two guests join me, one, a cube alumni. Venkat Venkataramani is here CEO & Co-Founder of Rockset. Good to see you again. And Doug Moore, VP of cloud platforms at Command Alkon. You're here to talk to me about how Command Alkon implemented real time analytics in just days with Rockset. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, great to be here. >> Doug, give us a little bit of a overview of Command Alkon, what type of business you are? what your mission is? That good stuff. >> Yeah, great. I'll pref it by saying I've been in this industry for only three years. The 30 years prior I was in financial services. So this was really exciting and eye opening. It actually plays into the story of how we met Rockset. So that's why I wanted to preface that. But Command Alkon is in the business, is in the what's called The Heavy Building Materials Industry. And I had never heard of it until I got here. But if you think about large projects like building buildings, cities, roads anything that requires concrete asphalt or just really big trucks, full of bulky materials that's the heavy building materials industry. So for over 40 years Command Alkon has been the north American leader in providing software to quarries and production facilities to help mine and load these materials and to produce them and then get them to the job site. So that's what our supply chain is, is from the quarry through the development of these materials, then out to the to a heavy building material job site. >> Got it, and now how historically in the past has the movement of construction materials been coordinated? What was that like before you guys came on the scene? >> You'll love this answer. So 'cause, again, it's like a step back in time. When I got here the people told me that we're trying to come up with the platform that there are 27 industries studied globally. And our industry is second to last in terms of automation which meant that literally everything is still being done with paper and a lot of paper. So when one of those, let's say material is developed, concrete asphalt is produced and then needs to get to the job site. They start by creating a five part printed ticket or delivery description that then goes to multiple parties. It ends up getting touched physically over 50 times for every delivery. And to give you some idea what kind of scale it is there are over 330 million of these type deliveries in north America every year. So it's really a lot of favor and a lot of manual work. So that was the state of really where we were. And obviously there are compelling reasons certainly today but even 3, 4, 5 years ago to automate that and digitize it. >> Wow, tremendous potential to go nowhere but up with the amount of paper, the lack of, of automation. So, you guys Command Alkon built a platform, a cloud software construction software platform. Talk to me of about that. Why you built it, what was the compelling event? I mean, I think you've kind of already explained the compelling event of all the paper but give us a little bit more context. >> Yeah. That was the original. And then we'll get into what happened two years ago which has made it even more compelling but essentially with everything on premises there's really in a huge amount of inefficiency. So, people have heard the enormous numbers that it takes to build up a highway or a really large construction project. And a lot of that is tied up in these inefficiencies. So we felt like with our significant presence in this market, that if we could figure out how to automate getting this data into the cloud so that at least the partners in the supply chain could begin sharing information. That's not on paper a little bit closer to real time that we could make has an impact on everything from the timing it takes to do a project to even the amount of carbon dioxide that's admitted, for example from trucks running around and being delayed and not being coordinated well. >> So you built the connect platform you started on Amazon DynamoDB and ran into some performance challenges. Talk to us about the, some of those performance bottlenecks and how you found Venkat and Rockset. >> So from the beginning, we were fortunate, if you start building a cloud three years ago you're you have a lot of opportunity to use some of the what we call more fully managed or serverless offerings from Amazon and all the cloud vendors have them but Amazon is the one we're most familiar with throughout the past 10 years. So we went head first into saying, we're going to do everything we can to not manage infrastructure ourselves. So we can really focus on solving this problem efficiently. And it paid off great. And so we chose dynamo as our primary database and it still was a great decision. We have obviously hundreds of millions of billions of these data points in dynamo. And it's great from a transactional perspective, but at some point you need to get the data back out. And what plays into the story of the beginning when I came here with no background basically in this industry, is that, and as did most of the other people on my team, we weren't really sure what questions were going to be asked of the data. And that's super, super important with a NoSQL database like dynamo. You sort of have to know in advance what those usage patterns are going to be and what people are going to want to get back out of it. And that's what really began to strain us on both performance and just availability of information. >> Got it. Venkat, let's bring you into the conversation. Talk to me about some of the challenges that Doug articulated the, is industry with such little automation so much paper. Are you finding that still out there for in quite a few industries that really have nowhere to go but up? >> I think that's a very good point. We talk about digital transformation 2.0 as like this abstract thing. And then you meet like disruptors and innovators like Doug, and you realize how much impact, it has on the real world. But now it's not just about disrupting, and digitizing all of these records but doing it at a faster pace than ever before, right. I think this is really what digital transformation in the cloud really enable tools you do that, a small team in a, with a very very big mission and responsibility like what Doug team have been, shepherding here. They're able to move very, very, very fast, to be able to kind of accelerate this. And, they're not only on the forefront of digitizing and transforming a very big, paper-heavy kind of process, but real-time analytics and real time reporting is a requirement, right? Nobody's wondering where is my supply chain three days ago? Are my, one of the most important thing in heavy construction is to keep running on a schedule. If you fall behind, there's no way to catch up because there's so many things that falls apart. Now, how do you make sure you don't fall behind, realtime analytics and realtime reporting on how many trucks are supposed to be delivered today? Halfway through the day, are they on track? Are they getting behind? And all of those things is not just able to manage the data but also be able to get reporting and analytics on that is a extremely important aspect of this. So this is like a combination of digital transformation happening in the cloud in realtime and realtime analytics being in the forefront of it. And so we are very, very happy to partner with digital disruptors like Doug and his team to be part of this movement. >> Doug, as Venkat mentioned, access to real time data is a requirement that is just simple truth these days. I'm just curious, compelling event wise was COVID and accelerator? 'Cause we all know of the supply chain challenges that we're all facing in one way or the other, was that part of the compelling event that had you guys go and say, we want to do DynamoDB plus Rockset? >> Yeah, that is a fantastic question. In fact, more so than you can imagine. So anytime you come into an industry and you're going to try to completely change or revolutionize the way it operates it takes a long time to get the message out. Sometimes years, I remember in insurance it took almost 10 years really to get that message out and get great adoption and then COVID came along. And when COVID came along, we all of a sudden had a situation where drivers and the foreman on the job site didn't want to exchange the paperwork. I heard one story of a driver taping the ticket for signature to the foreman on a broomstick and putting it out his windows so that he didn't get too close. It really was that dramatic. And again, this is the early days and no one really has any idea what's happening and we're all working from home. So we launched, we saw that as an opportunity to really help people solve that problem and understand more what this transformation would mean in the long term. So we launched internally what we called Project Lemonade obviously from, make lemonade out of lemons, that's the situation that we were in and we immediately made some enhancements to a mobile app and then launched that to the field. So that basically there's now a digital acceptance capability where the driver can just stay in the vehicle and the foreman can be anywhere, look at the material say it's acceptable for delivery and go from there. So yeah, it made a, it actually immediately caused many of our customers hundreds to begin, to want to push their data to the cloud for that reason just to take advantage of that one capability >> Project lemonade, sounds like it's made a lot of lemonade out of a lot of lemons. Can you comment Doug on kind of the larger trend of real time analytics and logistics? >> Yeah, obviously, and this is something I didn't think about much either not knowing anything about concrete other than it was in my driveway before I got here. And that it's a perishable product and you've got that basically no more than about an hour and a half from the time you mix it, put it in the drum and get it to the job site and pour it. And then the next one has to come behind it. And I remember I, the trend is that we can't really do that on paper anymore and stay on top of what has to be done we'll get into the field. So a foreman, I recall saying that when you're in the field waiting on delivery, that you have people standing around and preparing the site ready to make a pour that two minutes is an eternity. And so, working a real time is all always a controversial word because it means something different to anyone, but that gave it real, a real clarity to mean, what it really meant to have real time analytics and how we are doing and where are my vehicles and how is this job performing today? And I think that a lot of people are still trying to figure out how to do that. And fortunately, we found a great tool set that's allowing us to do that at scale. Thankfully, for Rockset primarily. >> Venkat talk about it from your perspective the larger trend of real time analytics not just in logistics, but in other key industries. >> Yeah. I think we're seeing this across the board. I think, whether, even we see a huge trend even within an enterprise different teams from the marketing team to the support teams to more and more business operations team to the security team, really moving more and more of their use cases from real time. So we see this, the industries that are the innovators and the pioneers here are the ones for whom real times that requirement like Doug and his team here or where, if it is all news, it's no news, it's useless, right? But I think even within, across all industries, whether it is, gaming whether it is, FinTech, Bino related companies, e-learning platforms, so across, ed tech and so many different platforms, there is always this need for business operations. Some, certain aspects certain teams within large organizations to, have to tell me how to win the game and not like, play Monday morning quarterback after the game is over. >> Right, Doug, let's go back at you, I'm curious with connects, have you been able to scale the platform since you integrated with Rockset? Talk to us about some of the outcomes that you've achieved so far? >> Yeah, we have, and of course we knew and we made our database selection with dynamo that it really doesn't have a top end in terms of how much information that we can throw at it. But that's very, very challenging when it comes to using that information from reporting. But we've found the same thing as we've scaled the analytics side with Rockset indexing and searching of that database. So the scale in terms of the number of customers and the amount of data we've been able to take on has been, not been a problem. And honestly, for the first time in my career, I can say that we've always had to add people every time we add a certain number of customers. And that has absolutely not been the case with this platform. >> Well, and I imagine the team that you do have is far more, sorry Venkat, far more strategic and able to focus on bigger projects. >> It, is, and, you've amazed at, I mean Venkat hit on a couple of points that it's in terms of the adoption of analytics. What we found is that we are as big a customer of this analytic engine as our customers are because our marketing team and our sales team are always coming to us. Well how many customers are doing this? How many partners are connected in this way? Which feature flags are turned on the platform? And the way this works is all data that we push into the platform is automatically just indexed and ready for reporting analytics. So we really it's no additional ad of work, to answer these questions, which is really been phenomenal. >> I think the thing I want to add here is the speed at which they were able to build a scalable solution and also how little, operational and administrative overhead that it has cost of their teams, right. I think, this is again, realtime analytics. If you go and ask hundred people, do you want fast analytics on realtime data or slow analytics on scale data, people, no one would say give me slow and scale. So, I think it goes back to again our fundamental pieces that you have to remove all the cost and complexity barriers for realtime analytics to be the new default, right? Today companies try to get away with batch and the pioneers and the innovators are forced to solve, I know, kind of like address some of these realtime analytics challenges. I think with the platforms like the realtime analytics platform, like Rockset, we want to completely flip it on its head. You can do everything in real time. And there may be some extreme situations where you're dealing with like, hundreds of petabytes of data and you just need an analyst to generate like, quarterly reports out of that, go ahead and use some really, really good batch base system but you should be able to get anything, and everything you want without additional cost or complexity, in real time. That is really the vision. That is what we are really enabling here. >> Venkat, I want to also get your perspective and Doug I'd like your perspective on this as well but that is the role of cloud native and serverless technologies in digital disruption. And what do you see there? >> Yeah, I think it's huge. I think, again and again, every customer, and we meet, Command Alkon and Doug and his team is a great example of this where they really want to spend as much time and energies and calories that they have to, help their business, right? Like what, are we accomplishing trying to accomplish as a business? How do we enable, how do we build better products? How do we grow revenue? How do we eliminate risk that is inherent in the business? And that is really where they want to spend all of their energy not trying to like, install some backend software, administer build IDL pipelines and so on and so forth. And so, doing serverless on the compute side of that things like AWS lambda does and what have you. And, it's a very important innovation but that isn't, complete the story or your data stack also have to become serverless. And, that is really the vision with Rockset that your entire realtime analytics stack can be operating and managing. It could be as simple as managing a serverless stack for your compute environments like your APS servers and what have you. And so I think that is going to be a that is for here to stay. This is a path towards simplicity and simplicity scales really, really well, right? Complexity will always be the killer that'll limit, how far you can use this solution and how many problems can you solve with that solution? So, simplicity is a very, very important aspect here. And serverless helps you, deliver that. >> And Doug your thoughts on cloud native and serverless in terms of digital disruption >> Great point, and there are two parts to the scalability part. The second one is the one that's more subtle unless you're in charge of the budget. And that is, with enough effort and enough money that you can make almost any technology scale whether it's multiple copies of it, it may take a long time to get there but you can get there with most technologies but what is least scalable, at least that I as I see that this industry is the people, everybody knows we have a talent shortage and these other ways of getting the real time analytics and scaling infrastructure for compute and database storage, it really takes a highly skilled set of resources. And the more your company grows, the more of those you need. And that is what we really can't find. And that's actually what drove our team in our last industry to even go this way we reached a point where our growth was limited by the people we could find. And so we really wanted to break out of that. So now we had the best of both scalable people because we don't have to scale them and scalable technology. >> Excellent. The best of both worlds. Isn't it great when those two things come together? Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me on "theCUBE" today. Talking about what Rockset and Command Alkon are doing together better together what you're enabling from a supply chain digitization perspective. We appreciate your insights. >> Great. Thank you. >> Thanks, Lisa. Thanks for having us. >> My pleasure. For Doug Moore and Venkat Venkatramani, I'm Lisa Martin. Keep it right here for more coverage of "theCUBE", your leader in high tech event coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Let's kick things off. We're here at Mike Capuano the CMO of Pluribus Networks, and Ami Badani VP of Networking, Marketing, and Developer of Ecosystem at NVIDIA. Great to have you welcome folks. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> So let's get into the the problem situation with cloud unified networking. What problems are out there? What challenges do cloud operators have Mike? Let's get into it. >> The challenges that we're looking at are for non hyperscalers that's enterprises, governments Tier 2 service providers, cloud service providers. And the first mandate for them is to become as agile as a hyperscaler. So they need to be able to deploy services and security policies in seconds. They need to be able to abstract the complexity of the network and define things in software while it's accelerated in hardware. Really ultimately they need a single operating model everywhere. And then the second thing is they need to distribute networking and security services out to the edge of the host. We're seeing a growth cyber attacks. It's not slowing down. It's only getting worse and solving for this security problem across clouds is absolutely critical. And the way to do it is to move security out to the host. >> With that goal in mind, what's the Pluribus vision how does this tie together? >> So basically what we see is that this demands a new architecture and that new architecture has four tenets. The first tenet is unified and simplified cloud networks. If you look at cloud networks today, there's sort of like discreet bespoke cloud networks per hypervisor, per private cloud, edge cloud, public cloud. Each of the public clouds have different networks, that needs to be unified. If we want these folks to be able to be agile they need to be able to issue a single command or instantiate a security policy across all of those locations with one command and not have to go to each one. The second is, like I mentioned distributed security. Distributed security without compromise, extended out to the host is absolutely critical. So micro segmentation and distributed firewalls. But it doesn't stop there. They also need pervasive visibility. It's sort of like with security you really can't see you can't protect you can't see. So you need visibility everywhere. The problem is visibility to date has been very expensive. Folks have had to basically build a separate overlay network of taps, packet brokers, tap aggregation infrastructure, that really needs to be built in to this unified network I'm talking about. And the last thing is automation. All of this needs to be SDN enabled. So this is related to my comment about abstraction. Abstract the complexity of all these discreet networks whatever's down there in the physical layer. I don't want to see it. I want to abstract it. I want to define things in software but I do want to leverage the power of hardware to accelerate that. So that's the fourth tenet is SDN automation. >> Mike, we've been talking on theCUBE a lot about this architectural shift and customers are looking at this. This is a big part of everyone who's looking at cloud operations, NextGen. How do we get there? How do customer customers get this vision realized? >> That's a great question. And I appreciate the tee up. We're here today for that reason. We're introducing two things today. The first is a unified cloud networking vision. And that is a vision of where Pluribus is headed with our partners like NVIDIA long term. And that is about deploying a common operating model SDN enabled, SDN automated, hardware accelerated across all clouds. And whether that's underlay and overlay switch or server, any hypervisor infrastructure containers, any workload doesn't matter. So that's ultimately where we want to get. And that's what we talked about earlier. The first step in that vision is what we call the unified cloud fabric. And this is the next generation of our adaptive cloud fabric. And what's nice about this is we're not starting from scratch. We have an award-winning adaptive cloud fabric product that is deployed globally. And in particular, we're very proud of the fact that it's deployed in over 100 Tier 1 mobile operators as the network fabric for their 4G and 5G virtualized cores. We know how to build carrier grade networking infrastructure. What we're doing now to realize this next generation unified cloud fabric is we're extending from the switch to this NVIDIA BlueField-2 DPU. We know there's. >> Hold that up real quick. That's a good prop. That's the BlueField NVIDIA card. >> It's the NVIDIA BlueField-2 DPU, data processing unit. What we're doing fundamentally is extending our SDN automated fabric, the unified cloud fabric, out to the host. But it does take processing power. So we knew that we didn't want to do we didn't want to implement that running on the CPUs which is what some other companies do. Because it consumes revenue generating CPUs from the application. So a DPU is a perfect way to implement this. And we knew that NVIDIA was the leader with this BlueField-2. And so that is the first, that's the first step into getting, into realizing this vision. >> NVIDIA has always been powering some great workloads of GPUs, now you got DPUs. Networking and NVIDIA as here. What is the relationship with Pluribus? How did that come together? Tell us the story. >> We've been working with Pluribus for quite some time. I think the last several months was really when it came to fruition. And what Pluribus is trying to build and what NVIDIA has. So we have, this concept of a blue field data processing unit, which, if you think about it, conceptually does really three things, offload, accelerate, and isolate. So offload your workloads from your CPU to your data processing unit, infrastructure workloads that is. Accelerate, so there's a bunch of acceleration engines. You can run infrastructure workloads much faster than you would otherwise. And then isolation, So you have this nice security isolation between the data processing unit and your other CPU environment. And so you can run completely isolated workloads directly on the data processing unit. So we introduced this, a couple years ago. And with Pluribus we've been talking to the Pluribus team for quite some months now. And I think really the combination of what Pluribus is trying to build, and what they've developed around this unified cloud fabric fits really nicely with the DPU and running that on the DPU and extending it really from your physical switch all the way to your host environment, specifically on the data processing unit. So if you think about what's happening as you add data processing units to your environment. So every server we believe over time is going to have data processing units. So now you'll have to manage that complexity from the physical network layer to the host layer. And so what Pluribus is really trying to do is extending the network fabric from the host from the switch to the host and really have that single pane of glass for network operators to be able to configure, provision, manage all of the complexity of the network environment. So that's really how the partnership truly started. And so it started really with extending the network fabric and now we're also working with them on security. If you sort of take that concept of isolation and security isolation, what Pluribus has within their fabric is the concept of micro segmentation. And so now you can take that extend it to the data processing unit and really have isolated micro segmentation workloads whether it's bare metal, cloud native environments, whether it's virtualized environments, whether it's public cloud, private cloud, hybrid cloud. So it really is a magical partnership between the two companies with their unified cloud fabric running on the DPU. >> You know what I love about this conversation is it reminds me of when you have these changing markets. The product gets pulled out of the market and you guys step up and create these new solutions. And I think this is a great example. So I have to ask you how do you guys differentiate what sets this apart for customers? What's in it for the customer? >> So I mentioned three things in terms of the value of what the BlueField brings. There's offloading, accelerating and isolating. And that's sort of the key core tenets of BlueField. So that, if you sort of think about what BlueField what we've done, in terms of the differentiation. We're really a robust platform for innovation. So we introduced BlueField-2 last year. We're introducing BlueField-3 which is our next generation of blue field. It'll have 5X the ARM compute capacity. It will have 400 gig line rate acceleration, 4X better crypto acceleration. So it will be remarkably better than the previous generation. And we'll continue to innovate and add, chips to our portfolio every 18 months to two years. So that's sort of one of the key areas of differentiation. The other is that if you look at NVIDIA, what we're sort of known for is really known for our AI, our artificial intelligence and our artificial intelligence software, as well as our GPU. So you look at artificial intelligence and the combination of artificial intelligence plus data processing. This really creates faster, more efficient secure AI systems from, the core of your data center, all the way out to the edge. And so with NVIDIA we really have these converged accelerators where we've combined the GPU, which does all your AI processing with your data processing with the DPU. So we have this convergence really nice convergence of that area. And I would say the third area is really around our developer environment. One of the key, one of our key motivations at NVIDIA is really to have our partner ecosystem embrace our technology and build solutions around our technology. So if you look at what we've done with the DPU we've created an SDK, which is an open SDK called DOCA. And it's an open SDK for our partners to really build and develop solutions using BlueField and using all these accelerated libraries that we expose through DOCA. And so part of our differentiation is really building this open ecosystem for our partners to take advantage and build solutions around our technology. >> What's exciting is when I hear you talk it's like you realize that there's no one general purpose network anymore. Everyone has their own super environment, super cloud or these new capabilities. They can really craft their own I'd say custom environment at scale with easy tools. And it's all kind of that again this is the new architecture Mike, you were talking about. How does customers run this effectively, cost effectively? And how do people migrate? >> I think that is the key question. So we've got this beautiful architecture. Amazon Nitro is a good example of a SmartNIC architecture that has been successfully deployed but, enterprises and Tier 2 service providers and Tier 1 service providers and governments are not Amazon. So they need to migrate there and they need this architecture to be cost of effective. And that's super key. I mean, the reality is DPU are moving fast but they're not going to be deployed everywhere on day one. Some servers will have have DPUs right away. Some servers will have DPUs in a year or two. And then there are devices that may never have DPUs. IOT gateways, or legacy servers, even mainframes. So that's the beauty of a solution that creates a fabric across both the switch and the DPU. And by leveraging the NVIDIA BlueField DPU what we really like about it is, it's open and that drives cost efficiencies. And then, with this our architectural approach effectively you get a unified solution across switch and DPU, workload independent. It doesn't matter what hypervisor it is. Integrated visibility, integrated security and that can create tremendous cost efficiencies and really extract a lot of the expense from a capital perspective out of the network as well as from an operational perspective because now I have an SDN automated solution where I'm literally issuing a command to deploy a network service, or to deploy a security policy and is deployed everywhere automatically saving the network operations team and the security operations team time. >> So let me rewind that 'cause that's super important. Got the unified cloud architecture. I'm the customer, it's implemented. What's the value again, take me through the value to me. I have a unified environment. What's the value? >> I mean the value is effectively, there's a few pieces of value. The first piece of value is I'm creating this clean demark. I'm taking networking to the host. And like I mentioned, we're not running it on the CPU. So in implementations that run networking on the CPU there's some conflict between the DevOps team who own the server, and the NetOps team who own the network because they're installing software on the CPU stealing cycles from what should be revenue generating CPUs. So now by terminating the networking on the DPU we create this real clean demark. So the DevOps folks are happy because they don't necessarily have the skills to manage network and they don't necessarily want to spend the time managing networking. They've got their network counterparts who are also happy the NetOps team because they want to control the networking. And now we've got this clean demark where the DevOps folks get the services they need and the NetOps folks get the control and agility they need. So that's a huge value. The next piece of value is distributed security. This is essential I mentioned it earlier, pushing out micro segmentation and distributed firewall basically at the application level, where I create these small segments on an application by application basis. So if a bad actor does penetrate the perimeter firewall they're contained once they get inside. 'Cause the worst thing is a bad actor penetrates perimeter firewall and can go wherever they want in wreak havoc. And so that's why this is so essential. And the next benefit obviously is this unified networking operating model. Having an operating model across switch and server, underlay and overlay, workload agnostic, making the life of the NetOps teams much easier so they can focus their time on really strategy instead of spending an afternoon deploying a single VLAN for example. >> Awesome, and I think also for my stand point I mean perimeter security is pretty much, that out there, I guess the firewall still out there exists but pretty much they're being breached all the time the perimeter. You have to have this new security model. And I think the other thing that you mentioned the separation between DevOps is cool because the infrastructure is code is about making the developers be agile and build security in from day one. So this policy aspect is huge new control plan. I think you guys have a new architecture that enables the security to be handled more flexible. That seems to be the killer feature here. >> If you look at the data processing unit, I think one of the great things about sort of this new architecture it's really the foundation for zero trust. So like you talked about the perimeter is getting breached. And so now each and every compute node has to be protected. And I think that's sort of what you see with the partnership between Pluribus and NVIDIA is the DPU is really the foundation of zero trust and Pluribus is really building on that vision with allowing sort of micro-segmentation and being able to protect each and every compute node as well as the underlying network. >> This is super exciting. This is illustration of how the market's evolving architectures are being reshaped and refactored for cloud scale and all this new goodness with data. So I got to ask how you guys go into market together. Michael, start with you. What's the relationship look like in the go to market with NVIDIA? >> We're super excited about the partnership. Obviously we're here together. We think we've got a really good solution for the market so we're jointly marketing it. Obviously we appreciate that NVIDIA's open that's sort of in our DNA, we're about a open networking. They've got other ISVs who are going to run on BlueField-2. We're probably going to run on other DPUs in the future. But right now we feel like we're partnered with the number one provider of DPUs in the world and super excited about making a splash with it. >> Oh man NVIDIA got the hot product. >> So BlueField-2 as I mentioned was GA last year, we're introducing, well we now also have the converged accelerator. So I talked about artificial intelligence our artificial intelligence software with the BlueField DPU, all of that put together on a converged accelerator. The nice thing there is you can either run those workloads, so if you have an artificial intelligence workload and an infrastructure workload, you can work on them separately on the same platform or you can actually use you can actually run artificial intelligence applications on the BlueField itself. So that's what the converged accelerator really brings to the table. So that's available now. Then we have BlueField-3 which will be available late this year. And I talked about sort of, how much better that next generation of BlueField is in comparison to BlueField-2. So we'll see BlueField-3 shipping later on this year. And then our software stack which I talked about, which is called DOCA. We're on our second version, our DOCA 1.2 we're releasing DOCA 1.3 in about two months from now. And so that's really our open ecosystem framework. So allow you to program the BlueField. So we have all of our acceleration libraries, security libraries, that's all packed into this SDK called DOCA. And it really gives that simplicity to our partners to be able to develop on top of BlueField. So as we add new generations of BlueField, next year we'll have another version and so on and so forth. DOCA is really that unified layer that allows BlueField to be both forwards compatible and backwards compatible. So partners only really have to think about writing to that SDK once. And then it automatically works with future generations of BlueField. So that's sort of the nice thing around DOCA. And then in terms of our go to market model we're working with every major OEM. Later on this year you'll see, major server manufacturers releasing BlueField enabled servers, so more to come. >> Awesome, save money, make it easier, more capabilities, more workload power. This is the future of cloud operations. >> And one thing I'll add is we are, we have a number of customers as you'll hear in the next segment that are already signed up and will be working with us for our early field trial starting late April early May. We are accepting registrations. You can go to www.pluribusnetworks.com/eft. If you're interested in signing up for being part of our field trial and providing feedback on the product >> Awesome innovation and networking. Thanks so much for sharing the news. Really appreciate, thanks so much. In a moment we'll be back to look deeper in the product the integration, security, zero trust use cases. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Everyone wants a cloud operating model. Since the introduction of the modern cloud. Last decade, the entire technology landscape has changed. We've learned a lot from the hyperscalers, especially from AWS. Now, one thing is certain in the technology business. It's so competitive. Then if a faster, better, cheaper idea comes along, the industry will move quickly to adopt it. They'll add their unique value and then they'll bring solutions to the market. And that's precisely what's happening throughout the technology industry because of cloud. And one of the best examples is Amazon's nitro. That's AWS has custom built hypervisor that delivers on the promise of more efficiently using resources and expanding things like processor, optionality for customers. It's a secret weapon for Amazon. As, as we, as we wrote last year, every infrastructure company needs something like nitro to compete. Why do we say this? Well, Wiki Bon our research arm estimates that nearly 30% of CPU cores in the data center are wasted. >>They're doing work that they weren't designed to do well, specifically offloading networking, storage, and security tasks. So if you can eliminate that waste, you can recapture dollars that drop right to the bottom line. That's why every company needs a nitro like solution. As a result of these developments, customers are rethinking networks and how they utilize precious compute resources. They can't, or won't put everything into the public cloud for many reasons. That's one of the tailwinds for tier two cloud service providers and why they're growing so fast. They give options to customers that don't want to keep investing in building out their own data centers, and they don't want to migrate all their workloads to the public cloud. So these providers and on-prem customers, they want to be more like hyperscalers, right? They want to be more agile and they do that. They're distributing, networking and security functions and pushing them closer to the applications. >>Now, at the same time, they're unifying their view of the network. So it can be less fragmented, manage more efficiently with more automation and better visibility. How are they doing this? Well, that's what we're going to talk about today. Welcome to changing the game for cloud networking made possible by pluribus networks. My name is Dave Vellante and today on this special cube presentation, John furrier, and I are going to explore these issues in detail. We'll dig into new solutions being created by pluribus and Nvidia to specifically address offloading, wasted resources, accelerating performance, isolating data, and making networks more secure all while unifying the network experience. We're going to start on the west coast and our Palo Alto studios, where John will talk to Mike of pluribus and AMI, but Donnie of Nvidia, then we'll bring on Alessandra Bobby airy of pluribus and Pete Lummus from Nvidia to take a deeper dive into the technology. And then we're gonna bring it back here to our east coast studio and get the independent analyst perspective from Bob Liberte of the enterprise strategy group. We hope you enjoy the program. Okay, let's do this over to John >>Okay. Let's kick things off. We're here at my cafe. One of the TMO and pluribus networks and NAMI by Dani VP of networking, marketing, and developer ecosystem at Nvidia. Great to have you welcome folks. >>Thank you. Thanks. >>So let's get into the, the problem situation with cloud unified network. What problems are out there? What challenges do cloud operators have Mike let's get into it. >>Yeah, it really, you know, the challenges we're looking at are for non hyperscalers that's enterprises, governments, um, tier two service providers, cloud service providers, and the first mandate for them is to become as agile as a hyperscaler. So they need to be able to deploy services and security policies. And second, they need to be able to abstract the complexity of the network and define things in software while it's accelerated in hardware. Um, really ultimately they need a single operating model everywhere. And then the second thing is they need to distribute networking and security services out to the edge of the host. Um, we're seeing a growth in cyber attacks. Um, it's, it's not slowing down. It's only getting worse and, you know, solving for this security problem across clouds is absolutely critical. And the way to do it is to move security out to the host. >>Okay. With that goal in mind, what's the pluribus vision. How does this tie together? >>Yeah. So, um, basically what we see is, uh, that this demands a new architecture and that new architecture has four tenants. The first tenant is unified and simplified cloud networks. If you look at cloud networks today, there's, there's sort of like discreet bespoke cloud networks, you know, per hypervisor, per private cloud edge cloud public cloud. Each of the public clouds have different networks that needs to be unified. You know, if we want these folks to be able to be agile, they need to be able to issue a single command or instantiate a security policy across all those locations with one command and not have to go to each one. The second is like I mentioned, distributed security, um, distributed security without compromise, extended out to the host is absolutely critical. So micro-segmentation and distributed firewalls, but it doesn't stop there. They also need pervasive visibility. >>You know, it's, it's, it's sort of like with security, you really can't see you can't protect what you can't see. So you need visibility everywhere. The problem is visibility to date has been very expensive. Folks have had to basically build a separate overlay network of taps, packet brokers, tap aggregation infrastructure that really needs to be built into this unified network I'm talking about. And the last thing is automation. All of this needs to be SDN enabled. So this is related to my comment about abstraction abstract, the complexity of all of these discreet networks, physic whatever's down there in the physical layer. Yeah. I don't want to see it. I want to abstract it. I wanted to find things in software, but I do want to leverage the power of hardware to accelerate that. So that's the fourth tenant is SDN automation. >>Mike, we've been talking on the cube a lot about this architectural shift and customers are looking at this. This is a big part of everyone who's looking at cloud operations next gen, how do we get there? How do customers get this vision realized? >>That's a great question. And I appreciate the tee up. I mean, we're, we're here today for that reason. We're introducing two things today. Um, the first is a unified cloud networking vision, and that is a vision of where pluribus is headed with our partners like Nvidia longterm. Um, and that is about, uh, deploying a common operating model, SDN enabled SDN, automated hardware, accelerated across all clouds. Um, and whether that's underlying overlay switch or server, um, hype, any hypervisor infrastructure containers, any workload doesn't matter. So that's ultimately where we want to get. And that's what we talked about earlier. Um, the first step in that vision is what we call the unified cloud fabric. And this is the next generation of our adaptive cloud fabric. Um, and what's nice about this is we're not starting from scratch. We have a, a, an award-winning adaptive cloud fabric product that is deployed globally. Um, and in particular, uh, we're very proud of the fact that it's deployed in over a hundred tier one mobile operators as the network fabric for their 4g and 5g virtualized cores. We know how to build carrier grade, uh, networking infrastructure, what we're doing now, um, to realize this next generation unified cloud fabric is we're extending from the switch to this Nvidia Bluefield to DPU. We know there's a, >>Hold that up real quick. That's a good, that's a good prop. That's the blue field and video. >>It's the Nvidia Bluefield two DPU data processing unit. And, um, uh, you know, what we're doing, uh, fundamentally is extending our SDN automated fabric, the unified cloud fabric out to the host, but it does take processing power. So we knew that we didn't want to do, we didn't want to implement that running on the CPU, which is what some other companies do because it consumes revenue generating CPU's from the application. So a DPU is a perfect way to implement this. And we knew that Nvidia was the leader with this blue field too. And so that is the first that's, that's the first step in the getting into realizing this vision. >>I mean, Nvidia has always been powering some great workloads of GPU. Now you've got DPU networking and then video is here. What is the relationship with clothes? How did that come together? Tell us the story. >>Yeah. So, you know, we've been working with pluribus for quite some time. I think the last several months was really when it came to fruition and, uh, what pluribus is trying to build and what Nvidia has. So we have, you know, this concept of a Bluefield data processing unit, which if you think about it, conceptually does really three things, offload, accelerate an isolate. So offload your workloads from your CPU to your data processing unit infrastructure workloads that is, uh, accelerate. So there's a bunch of acceleration engines. So you can run infrastructure workloads much faster than you would otherwise, and then isolation. So you have this nice security isolation between the data processing unit and your other CPU environment. And so you can run completely isolated workloads directly on the data processing unit. So we introduced this, you know, a couple of years ago, and with pluribus, you know, we've been talking to the pluribus team for quite some months now. >>And I think really the combination of what pluribus is trying to build and what they've developed around this unified cloud fabric, uh, is fits really nicely with the DPU and running that on the DPU and extending it really from your physical switch, all the way to your host environment, specifically on the data processing unit. So if you think about what's happening as you add data processing units to your environment. So every server we believe over time is going to have data processing units. So now you'll have to manage that complexity from the physical network layer to the host layer. And so what pluribus is really trying to do is extending the network fabric from the host, from the switch to the host, and really have that single pane of glass for network operators to be able to configure provision, manage all of the complexity of the network environment. >>So that's really how the partnership truly started. And so it started really with extending the network fabric, and now we're also working with them on security. So, you know, if you sort of take that concept of isolation and security isolation, what pluribus has within their fabric is the concept of micro-segmentation. And so now you can take that extended to the data processing unit and really have, um, isolated micro-segmentation workloads, whether it's bare metal cloud native environments, whether it's virtualized environments, whether it's public cloud, private cloud hybrid cloud. So it really is a magical partnership between the two companies with their unified cloud fabric running on, on the DPU. >>You know, what I love about this conversation is it reminds me of when you have these changing markets, the product gets pulled out of the market and, and you guys step up and create these new solutions. And I think this is a great example. So I have to ask you, how do you guys differentiate what sets this apart for customers with what's in it for the customer? >>Yeah. So I mentioned, you know, three things in terms of the value of what the Bluefield brings, right? There's offloading, accelerating, isolating, that's sort of the key core tenants of Bluefield. Um, so that, you know, if you sort of think about what, um, what Bluefields, what we've done, you know, in terms of the differentiation, we're really a robust platform for innovation. So we introduced Bluefield to, uh, last year, we're introducing Bluefield three, which is our next generation of Bluefields, you know, we'll have five X, the arm compute capacity. It will have 400 gig line rate acceleration, four X better crypto acceleration. So it will be remarkably better than the previous generation. And we'll continue to innovate and add, uh, chips to our portfolio every, every 18 months to two years. Um, so that's sort of one of the key areas of differentiation. The other is the, if you look at Nvidia and, and you know, what we're sort of known for is really known for our AI artificial intelligence and our artificial intelligence software, as well as our GPU. >>So you look at artificial intelligence and the combination of artificial intelligence plus data processing. This really creates the, you know, faster, more efficient, secure AI systems from the core of your data center, all the way out to the edge. And so with Nvidia, we really have these converged accelerators where we've combined the GPU, which does all your AI processing with your data processing with the DPU. So we have this convergence really nice convergence of that area. And I would say the third area is really around our developer environment. So, you know, one of the key, one of our key motivations at Nvidia is really to have our partner ecosystem, embrace our technology and build solutions around our technology. So if you look at what we've done with the DPU, with credit and an SDK, which is an open SDK called Doka, and it's an open SDK for our partners to really build and develop solutions using Bluefield and using all these accelerated libraries that we expose through Doka. And so part of our differentiation is really building this open ecosystem for our partners to take advantage and build solutions around our technology. >>You know, what's exciting is when I hear you talk, it's like you realize that there's no one general purpose network anymore. Everyone has their own super environment Supercloud or these new capabilities. They can really craft their own, I'd say, custom environment at scale with easy tools. Right. And it's all kind of, again, this is the new architecture Mike, you were talking about, how does customers run this effectively? Cost-effectively and how do people migrate? >>Yeah, I, I think that is the key question, right? So we've got this beautiful architecture. You, you know, Amazon nitro is a, is a good example of, of a smart NIC architecture that has been successfully deployed, but enterprises and serve tier two service providers and tier one service providers and governments are not Amazon, right? So they need to migrate there and they need this architecture to be cost-effective. And, and that's, that's super key. I mean, the reality is deep user moving fast, but they're not going to be, um, deployed everywhere on day one. Some servers will have DPS right away, some servers will have use and a year or two. And then there are devices that may never have DPS, right. IOT gateways, or legacy servers, even mainframes. Um, so that's the beauty of a solution that creates a fabric across both the switch and the DPU, right. >>Um, and by leveraging the Nvidia Bluefield DPU, what we really like about it is it's open. Um, and that drives, uh, cost efficiencies. And then, um, uh, you know, with this, with this, our architectural approach effectively, you get a unified solution across switch and DPU workload independent doesn't matter what hypervisor it is, integrated visibility, integrated security, and that can, uh, create tremendous cost efficiencies and, and really extract a lot of the expense from, from a capital perspective out of the network, as well as from an operational perspective, because now I have an SDN automated solution where I'm literally issuing a command to deploy a network service or to create or deploy our security policy and is deployed everywhere, automatically saving the oppor, the network operations team and the security operations team time. >>All right. So let me rewind that because that's super important. Get the unified cloud architecture, I'm the customer guy, but it's implemented, what's the value again, take, take me through the value to me. I have a unified environment. What's the value. >>Yeah. So I mean, the value is effectively, um, that, so there's a few pieces of value. The first piece of value is, um, I'm creating this clean D mark. I'm taking networking to the host. And like I mentioned, we're not running it on the CPU. So in implementations that run networking on the CPU, there's some conflict between the dev ops team who owned the server and the NetApps team who own the network because they're installing software on the, on the CPU stealing cycles from what should be revenue generating. Uh CPU's. So now by, by terminating the networking on the DPU, we click create this real clean DMARC. So the dev ops folks are happy because they don't necessarily have the skills to manage network and they don't necessarily want to spend the time managing networking. They've got their network counterparts who are also happy the NetApps team, because they want to control the networking. >>And now we've got this clean DMARC where the DevOps folks get the services they need and the NetApp folks get the control and agility they need. So that's a huge value. Um, the next piece of value is distributed security. This is essential. I mentioned earlier, you know, put pushing out micro-segmentation and distributed firewall, basically at the application level, right, where I create these small, small segments on an by application basis. So if a bad actor does penetrate the perimeter firewall, they're contained once they get inside. Cause the worst thing is a bad actor, penetrates a perimeter firewall and can go wherever they want and wreak havoc. Right? And so that's why this, this is so essential. Um, and the next benefit obviously is this unified networking operating model, right? Having, uh, uh, uh, an operating model across switch and server underlay and overlay, workload agnostic, making the life of the NetApps teams much easier so they can focus their time on really strategy instead of spending an afternoon, deploying a single villain, for example. >>Awesome. And I think also from my standpoint, I mean, perimeter security is pretty much, I mean, they're out there, it gets the firewall still out there exists, but pretty much they're being breached all the time, the perimeter. So you have to have this new security model. And I think the other thing that you mentioned, the separation between dev ops is cool because the infrastructure is code is about making the developers be agile and build security in from day one. So this policy aspect is, is huge. Um, new control points. I think you guys have a new architecture that enables the security to be handled more flexible. >>Right. >>That seems to be the killer feature here, >>Right? Yeah. If you look at the data processing unit, I think one of the great things about sort of this new architecture, it's really the foundation for zero trust it's. So like you talked about the perimeter is getting breached. And so now each and every compute node has to be protected. And I think that's sort of what you see with the partnership between pluribus and Nvidia is the DPU is really the foundation of zero trust. And pluribus is really building on that vision with, uh, allowing sort of micro-segmentation and being able to protect each and every compute node as well as the underlying network. >>This is super exciting. This is an illustration of how the market's evolving architectures are being reshaped and refactored for cloud scale and all this new goodness with data. So I gotta ask how you guys go into market together. Michael, start with you. What's the relationship look like in the go to market with an Nvidia? >>Sure. Um, I mean, we're, you know, we're super excited about the partnership, obviously we're here together. Um, we think we've got a really good solution for the market, so we're jointly marketing it. Um, uh, you know, obviously we appreciate that Nvidia is open. Um, that's, that's sort of in our DNA, we're about open networking. They've got other ISV who are gonna run on Bluefield too. We're probably going to run on other DPS in the, in the future, but right now, um, we're, we feel like we're partnered with the number one, uh, provider of DPS in the world and, uh, super excited about, uh, making a splash with it. >>I'm in get the hot product. >>Yeah. So Bluefield too, as I mentioned was GA last year, we're introducing, uh, well, we now also have the converged accelerator. So I talked about artificial intelligence or artificial intelligence with the Bluefield DPU, all of that put together on a converged accelerator. The nice thing there is you can either run those workloads. So if you have an artificial intelligence workload and an infrastructure workload, you can warn them separately on the same platform or you can actually use, uh, you can actually run artificial intelligence applications on the Bluefield itself. So that's what the converged accelerator really brings to the table. Uh, so that's available now. Then we have Bluefield three, which will be available late this year. And I talked about sort of, you know, uh, how much better that next generation of Bluefield is in comparison to Bluefield two. So we will see Bluefield three shipping later on this year, and then our software stack, which I talked about, which is called Doka we're on our second version are Doka one dot two. >>We're releasing Doka one dot three, uh, in about two months from now. And so that's really our open ecosystem framework. So allow you to program the Bluefields. So we have all of our acceleration libraries, um, security libraries, that's all packed into this STK called Doka. And it really gives that simplicity to our partners to be able to develop on top of Bluefield. So as we add new generations of Bluefield, you know, next, next year, we'll have, you know, another version and so on and so forth Doka is really that unified unified layer that allows, um, Bluefield to be both forwards compatible and backwards compatible. So partners only really have to think about writing to that SDK once, and then it automatically works with future generations of Bluefields. So that's sort of the nice thing around, um, around Doka. And then in terms of our go to market model, we're working with every, every major OEM. So, uh, later on this year, you'll see, you know, major server manufacturers, uh, releasing Bluefield enabled servers. So, um, more to come >>Awesome, save money, make it easier, more capabilities, more workload power. This is the future of, of cloud operations. >>Yeah. And, and, and, uh, one thing I'll add is, um, we are, um, we have a number of customers as you'll hear in the next segment, um, that are already signed up and we'll be working with us for our, uh, early field trial starting late April early may. Um, we are accepting registrations. You can go to www.pluribusnetworks.com/e F T a. If you're interested in signing up for, um, uh, being part of our field trial and providing feedback on the product, >>Awesome innovation and network. Thanks so much for sharing the news. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much. Okay. In a moment, we'll be back to look deeper in the product, the integration security zero trust use cases. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage, >>Cloud networking is complex and fragmented slowing down your business. How can you simplify and unify your cloud networks to increase agility and business velocity? >>Pluribus unified cloud networking provides a unified simplify and agile network fabric across all clouds. It brings the simplicity of a public cloud operation model to private clouds, dramatically reducing complexity and improving agility, availability, and security. Now enterprises and service providers can increase their business philosophy and delight customers in the distributed multi-cloud era. We achieve this with a new approach to cloud networking, pluribus unified cloud fabric. This open vendor, independent network fabric, unifies, networking, and security across distributed clouds. The first step is extending the fabric to servers equipped with data processing units, unifying the fabric across switches and servers, and it doesn't stop there. The fabric is unified across underlay and overlay networks and across all workloads and virtualization environments. The unified cloud fabric is optimized for seamless migration to this new distributed architecture, leveraging the power of the DPU for application level micro-segmentation distributed fireball and encryption while still supporting those servers and devices that are not equipped with a DPU. Ultimately the unified cloud fabric extends seamlessly across distributed clouds, including central regional at edge private clouds and public clouds. The unified cloud fabric is a comprehensive network solution. That includes everything you need for clouds, networking built in SDN automation, distributed security without compromises, pervasive wire speed, visibility and application insight available on your choice of open networking switches and DP use all at the lowest total cost of ownership. The end result is a dramatically simplified unified cloud networking architecture that unifies your distributed clouds and frees your business to move at cloud speed, >>To learn more, visit www.pluribusnetworks.com. >>Okay. We're back I'm John ferry with the cube, and we're going to go deeper into a deep dive into unified cloud networking solution from Clovis and Nvidia. And we'll examine some of the use cases with Alessandra Burberry, VP of product management and pullovers networks and Pete Bloomberg who's director of technical marketing and video remotely guys. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Yeah. >>So deep dive, let's get into the what and how Alexandra we heard earlier about the pluribus Nvidia partnership and the solution you're working together on what is it? >>Yeah. First let's talk about the water. What are we really integrating with the Nvidia Bluefield, the DPO technology, uh, plugable says, um, uh, there's been shipping, uh, in, uh, in volume, uh, in multiple mission critical networks. So this advisor one network operating systems, it runs today on a merchant silicone switches and effectively it's a standard open network operating system for data center. Um, and the novelty about this system that integrates a distributed control plane for, at water made effective in SDN overlay. This automation is a completely open and interoperable and extensible to other type of clouds is not enclosed them. And this is actually what we're now porting to the Nvidia DPO. >>Awesome. So how does it integrate into Nvidia hardware and specifically how has pluribus integrating its software with the Nvidia hardware? >>Yeah, I think, uh, we leverage some of the interesting properties of the Bluefield, the DPO hardware, which allows actually to integrate, uh, um, uh, our software, our network operating system in a manner which is completely isolated and independent from the guest operating system. So the first byproduct of this approach is that whatever we do at the network level on the DPU card that is completely agnostic to the hypervisor layer or OSTP layer running on, uh, on the host even more, um, uh, we can also independently manage this network, know that the switch on a Neek effectively, um, uh, managed completely independently from the host. You don't have to go through the network operating system, running on x86 to control this network node. So you throw yet the experience effectively of a top of rack for virtual machine or a top of rack for, uh, Kubernetes bots, where instead of, uh, um, if you allow me with the analogy instead of connecting a server knee directly to a switchboard, now you're connecting a VM virtual interface to a virtual interface on the switch on an ache. >>And, uh, also as part of this integration, we, uh, put a lot of effort, a lot of emphasis in, uh, accelerating the entire, uh, data plane for networking and security. So we are taking advantage of the DACA, uh, Nvidia DACA API to program the accelerators. And these accomplished two things with that. Number one, uh, you, uh, have much greater performance, much better performance. They're running the same network services on an x86 CPU. And second, this gives you the ability to free up, I would say around 20, 25% of the server capacity to be devoted either to, uh, additional workloads to run your cloud applications, or perhaps you can actually shrink the power footprint and compute footprint of your data center by 20%, if you want to run the same number of compute workloads. So great efficiencies in the overall approach, >>And this is completely independent of the server CPU, right? >>Absolutely. There is zero code from running on the x86, and this is what we think this enables a very clean demarcation between computer and network. >>So Pete, I gotta get, I gotta get you in here. We heard that, uh, the DPU is enabled cleaner separation of dev ops and net ops. Can you explain why that's important because everyone's talking DevSecOps right now, you've got net ops, net, net sec ops, this separation. Why is this clean separation important? >>Yeah, I think it's a, you know, it's a pragmatic solution in my opinion. Um, you know, we wish the world was all kind of rainbows and unicorns, but it's a little, a little messier than that. And I think a lot of the dev ops stuff and that, uh, mentality and philosophy, there's a natural fit there. Right? You have applications running on servers. So you're talking about developers with those applications integrating with the operators of those servers. Well, the network has always been this other thing and the network operators have always had a very different approach to things than compute operators. And, you know, I think that we, we in the networking industry have gotten closer together, but there's still a gap there's still some distance. And I think in that distance, isn't going to be closed. And so, you know, again, it comes down to pragmatism and I think, you know, one of my favorite phrases is look good fences, make good neighbors. And that's what this is. >>Yeah. That's a great point because dev ops has become kind of the calling card for cloud, right. But dev ops is as simply infrastructure as code and infrastructure is networking, right? So if infrastructure is code, you know, you're talking about, you know, that part of the stack under the covers under the hood, if you will, this is super important distinction. And this is where the innovation is. Can you elaborate on how you see that? Because this is really where the action is right now. >>Yeah, exactly. And I think that's where, um, one from, from the policy, the security that the zero trust aspect of this, right? If you get it wrong on that network side, all of a sudden you, you can totally open up that those capabilities. And so security is part of that. But the other part is thinking about this at scale, right? So we're taking one top of rack switch and adding, you know, up to 48 servers per rack. And so that ability to automate, orchestrate and manage at scale becomes absolutely critical. >>I'll Sandra, this is really the why we're talking about here, and this is scale. And again, getting it right. If you don't get it right, you're going to be really kind of up, you know what you know, so this is a huge deal. Networking matters, security matters, automation matters, dev ops, net ops, all coming together, clean separation, um, help us understand how this joint solution with Nvidia fits into the pluribus unified cloud networking vision, because this is what people are talking about and working on right now. >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think here with this solution, we're attacking two major problems in cloud networking. One is, uh, operation of, uh, cloud networking. And the second is a distributing security services in the cloud infrastructure. First, let me talk about the first water. We really unifying. If we're unifying something, something must be at least fragmented or this jointed and the, what is this joint that is actually the network in the cloud. If you look holistically, how networking is deployed in the cloud, you have your physical fabric infrastructure, right? Your switches and routers, you'll build your IP clause fabric leaf in spine typologies. This is actually a well understood the problem. I, I would say, um, there are multiple vendors, uh, uh, with, uh, um, uh, let's say similar technologies, um, very well standardized, whether you will understood, um, and almost a commodity, I would say building an IP fabric these days, but this is not the place where you deploy most of your services in the cloud, particularly from a security standpoint, two services are actually now moved into the compute layer where you actually were called builders, have to instrument the, a separate, uh, network virtualization layer, where they deploy segmentation and security closer to the workloads. >>And this is where the complication arise. These high value part of the cloud network is where you have a plethora of options that they don't talk to each other. And they are very dependent on the kind of hypervisor or compute solution you choose. Um, for example, the networking API to be between an GSXI environment or an hyper V or a Zen are completely disjointed. You have multiple orchestration layers. And when, and then when you throw in also Kubernetes in this, in this, in this type of architecture, uh, you're introducing yet another level of networking. And when Kubernetes runs on top of VMs, which is a prevalent approach, you actually just stacking up multiple networks on the compute layer that they eventually run on the physical fabric infrastructure. Those are all ships in the nights effectively, right? They operate as completely disjointed. And we're trying to attack this problem first with the notion of a unified fabric, which is independent from any workloads, whether it's this fabric spans on a switch, which can be con connected to a bare metal workload, or can span all the way inside the DPU, uh, where, um, you have, uh, your multi hypervisor compute environment. >>It's one API, one common network control plane, and one common set of segmentation services for the network. That's probably the number one, >>You know, it's interesting you, man, I hear you talking, I hear one network month, different operating models reminds me of the old serverless days. You know, there's still servers, but they call it serverless. Is there going to be a term network list? Because at the end of the day, it should be one network, not multiple operating models. This, this is a problem that you guys are working on. Is that right? I mean, I'm not, I'm just joking server listen network list, but the idea is it should be one thing. >>Yeah, it's effectively. What we're trying to do is we are trying to recompose this fragmentation in terms of network operation, across physical networking and server networking server networking is where the majority of the problems are because of the, uh, as much as you have standardized the ways of building, uh, physical networks and cloud fabrics with IP protocols and internet, you don't have that kind of, uh, uh, sort of, uh, um, um, uh, operational efficiency, uh, at the server layer. And, uh, this is what we're trying to attack first. The, with this technology, the second aspect we're trying to attack is are we distribute the security services throughout the infrastructure, more efficiently, whether it's micro-segmentation is a stateful firewall services, or even encryption. Those are all capabilities enabled by the blue field, uh, uh, the Butte technology and, uh, uh, we can actually integrate those capabilities directly into the nettle Fabrica, uh, limiting dramatically, at least for east-west traffic, the sprawl of, uh, security appliances, whether virtual or physical, that is typically the way the people today, uh, segment and secure the traffic in the cloud. >>Awesome. Pete, all kidding aside about network lists and serverless kind of fun, fun play on words there, the network is one thing it's basically distributed computing, right? So I love to get your thoughts about this distributed security with zero trust as the driver for this architecture you guys are doing. Can you share in more detail the depth of why DPU based approach is better than alternatives? >>Yeah, I think what's, what's beautiful and kind of what the DPU brings. That's new to this model is a completely isolated compute environment inside. So, you know, it's the, uh, yo dog, I heard you like a server, so I put a server inside your server. Uh, and so we provide, uh, you know, armed CPU's memory and network accelerators inside, and that is completely isolated from the host. So the server, the, the actual x86 host just thinks it has a regular Nick in there, but you actually have this full control plane thing. It's just like taking your top of rack switch and shoving it inside of your compute node. And so you have not only the separation, um, within the data plane, but you have this complete control plane separation. So you have this element that the network team can now control and manage, but we're taking all of the functions we used to do at the top of rack switch, and we're just shooting them now. >>And, you know, as time has gone on we've, we've struggled to put more and more and more into that network edge. And the reality is the network edge is the compute layer, not the top of rack switch layer. And so that provides this phenomenal enforcement point for security and policy. And I think outside of today's solutions around virtual firewalls, um, the other option is centralized appliances. And even if you can get one that can scale large enough, the question is, can you afford it? And so what we end up doing is we kind of hope that of aliens good enough, or we hope that if the excellent tunnel is good enough and we can actually apply more advanced techniques there because we can't physically, you know, financially afford that appliance to see all of the traffic. And now that we have a distributed model with this accelerator, we could do it. >>So what's the what's in it for the customer. I real quick, cause I think this is interesting point. You mentioned policy, everyone in networking knows policy is just a great thing and it adds, you hear it being talked about up the stack as well. When you start getting to orchestrating microservices and whatnot, all that good stuff going on there, containers and whatnot and modern applications. What's the benefit to the customers with this approach? Because what I heard was more scale, more edge deployment, flexibility, relative to security policies and application enablement. I mean, is that what what's the customer get out of this architecture? What's the enablement. >>It comes down to, uh, taking again the capabilities that were in that top of rack switch and asserting them down. So that makes simplicity smaller blast radiuses for failure, smaller failure domains, maintenance on the networks, and the systems become easier. Your ability to integrate across workloads becomes infinitely easier. Um, and again, you know, we always want to kind of separate each one of those layers. So just as in say, a VX land network, my leaf and spine don't have to be tightly coupled together. I can now do this at a different layer. And so you can run a DPU with any networking in the core there. And so you get this extreme flexibility. You can start small, you can scale large. Um, you know, to me, the, the possibilities are endless. Yes, >>It's a great security control plan. Really flexibility is key. And, and also being situationally aware of any kind of threats or new vectors or whatever's happening in the network. Alessandra, this is huge upside, right? You've already identified some successes with some customers on your early field trials. What are they doing and why are they attracted to the solution? >>Yeah, I think the response from customers has been, uh, the most, uh, encouraging and, uh, exciting, uh, for, uh, for us to, uh, to sort of continue and work and develop this product. And we have actually learned a lot in the process. Um, we talked to tier two tier three cloud providers. Uh, we talked to, uh, SP um, software Tyco type of networks, uh, as well as a large enterprise customers, um, in, uh, one particular case. Um, uh, one, uh, I think, um, let me, let me call out a couple of examples here, just to give you a flavor. Uh, there is a service provider, a cloud provider, uh, in Asia who is actually managing a cloud, uh, where they are offering services based on multiple hypervisors. They are native services based on Zen, but they also are on ramp into the cloud, uh, workloads based on, uh, ESI and, uh, uh, and KVM, depending on what the customer picks from the piece on the menu. >>And they have the problem of now orchestrating through their orchestrate or integrating with the Zen center with vSphere, uh, with, uh, open stack to coordinate these multiple environments and in the process to provide security, they actually deploy virtual appliances everywhere, which has a lot of costs, complication, and eats up into the server CPU. The problem is that they saw in this technology, they call it actually game changing is actually to remove all this complexity of in a single network and distribute the micro-segmentation service directly into the fabric. And overall, they're hoping to get out of it, uh, uh, tremendous, uh, um, opics, uh, benefit and overall, um, uh, operational simplification for the cloud infrastructure. That's one potent a use case. Uh, another, uh, large enterprise customer global enterprise customer, uh, is running, uh, both ESI and hyper V in that environment. And they don't have a solution to do micro-segmentation consistently across hypervisors. >>So again, micro-segmentation is a huge driver security looks like it's a recurring theme, uh, talking to most of these customers and in the Tyco space, um, uh, we're working with a few types of customers on the CFT program, uh, where the main goal is actually to our Monet's network operation. They typically handle all the VNF search with their own homegrown DPDK stack. This is overly complex. It is frankly also as low and inefficient, and then they have a physical network to manage the, the idea of having again, one network, uh, to coordinate the provision in our cloud services between the, the take of VNF, uh, and, uh, the rest of the infrastructure, uh, is extremely powerful on top of the offloading capability of the, by the bluefin DPOs. Those are just some examples. >>That was a great use case, a lot more potential. I see that with the unified cloud networking, great stuff, feed, shout out to you guys at Nvidia had been following your success for a long time and continuing to innovate as cloud scales and pluribus here with the unified networking, kind of bring it to the next level. Great stuff. Great to have you guys on. And again, software keeps driving the innovation again, networking is just a part of it, and it's the key solution. So I got to ask both of you to wrap this up. How can cloud operators who are interested in, in this, uh, new architecture and solution, uh, learn more because this is an architectural shift. People are working on this problem. They're trying to think about multiple clouds of trying to think about unification around the network and giving more security, more flexibility, uh, to their teams. How can people learn more? >>Yeah, so, uh, all Sandra and I have a talk at the upcoming Nvidia GTC conference. Um, so that's the week of March 21st through 24th. Um, you can go and register for free and video.com/at GTC. Um, you can also watch recorded sessions if you ended up watching us on YouTube a little bit after the fact. Um, and we're going to dive a little bit more into the specifics and the details and what we're providing in the solution. >>Alexandra, how can people learn more? >>Yeah, absolutely. People can go to the pluribus, a website, www boost networks.com/eft, and they can fill up the form and, uh, they will contact durables to either know more or to know more and actually to sign up for the actual early field trial program, which starts at the end of April. >>Okay. Well, we'll leave it there. Thanks. You both for joining. Appreciate it up next. You're going to hear an independent analyst perspective and review some of the research from the enterprise strategy group ESG. I'm John ferry with the >>Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Okay. We've heard from the folks at networks and Nvidia about their effort to transform cloud networking and unify bespoke infrastructure. Now let's get the perspective from an independent analyst and to do so. We welcome in ESG, senior analysts, Bob LA Liberte, Bob. Good to see you. Thanks for coming into our east coast studios. >>Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be >>Here. Yeah. So this, this idea of unified cloud networking approach, how serious is it? What's what's driving it. >>Yeah, there's certainly a lot of drivers behind it, but probably the first and foremost is the fact that application environments are becoming a lot more distributed, right? So the, it pendulum tends to swing back and forth. And we're definitely on one that's swinging from consolidated to distributed. And so applications are being deployed in multiple private data centers, multiple public cloud locations, edge locations. And as a result of that, what you're seeing is a lot of complexity. So organizations are having to deal with this highly disparate environment. They have to secure it. They have to ensure connectivity to it and all that's driving up complexity. In fact, when we asked in one of our last surveys and last year about network complexity, more than half 54% came out and said, Hey, our network environment is now either more or significantly more complex than it used to be. >>And as a result of that, what you're seeing is it's really impacting agility. So everyone's moving to these modern application environments, distributing them across areas so they can improve agility yet it's creating more complexity. So a little bit counter to the fact and, you know, really counter to their overarching digital transformation initiatives. From what we've seen, you know, nine out of 10 organizations today are either beginning in process or have a mature digital transformation process or initiative, but their top goals, when you look at them, it probably shouldn't be a surprise. The number one goal is driving operational efficiency. So it makes sense. I've distributed my environment to create agility, but I've created a lot of complexity. So now I need these tools that are going to help me drive operational efficiency, drive better experience. >>I mean, I love how you bring in the data yesterday. Does a great job with that. Uh, questions is, is it about just unifying existing networks or is there sort of a need to rethink kind of a do-over network, how networks are built? >>Yeah, that's a, that's a really good point because certainly unifying networks helps right. Driving any kind of operational efficiency helps. But in this particular case, because we've made the transition to new application architectures and the impact that's having as well, it's really about changing and bringing in new frameworks and new network architectures to accommodate those new application architectures. And by that, what I'm talking about is the fact that these new modern application architectures, microservices, containers are driving a lot more east west traffic. So in the old days, it used to be easier in north south coming out of the server, one application per server, things like that. Right now you've got hundreds, if not thousands of microservices communicating with each other users communicating to them. So there's a lot more traffic and a lot of it's taking place within the servers themselves. The other issue that you starting to see as well from that security perspective, when we were all consolidated, we had those perimeter based legacy, you know, castle and moat security architectures, but that doesn't work anymore when the applications aren't in the castle, right. >>When everything's spread out that that no longer happens. So we're absolutely seeing, um, organizations trying to, trying to make a shift. And, and I think much, like if you think about the shift that we're seeing with all the remote workers and the sassy framework to enable a secure framework there, this it's almost the same thing. We're seeing this distributed services framework come up to support the applications better within the data centers, within the cloud data centers, so that you can drive that security closer to those applications and make sure they're, they're fully protected. Uh, and that's really driving a lot of the, you know, the zero trust stuff you hear, right? So never trust, always verify, making sure that everything is, is, is really secure micro-segmentation is another big area. So ensuring that these applications, when they're connected to each other, they're, they're fully segmented out. And that's again, because if someone does get a breach, if they are in your data center, you want to limit the blast radius, you want to limit the amount of damage that's done. So that by doing that, it really makes it a lot harder for them to see everything that's in there. >>You know, you mentioned zero trust. It used to be a buzzword, and now it's like become a mandate. And I love the mode analogy. You know, you build a moat to protect the queen and the castle, the Queens left the castles, it's just distributed. So how should we think about this, this pluribus and Nvidia solution. There's a spectrum, help us understand that you've got appliances, you've got pure software solutions. You've got what pluribus is doing with Nvidia, help us understand that. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think as organizations recognize the need to distribute their services to closer to the applications, they're trying different models. So from a legacy approach, you know, from a security perspective, they've got these centralized firewalls that they're deploying within their data centers. The hard part for that is if you want all this traffic to be secured, you're actually sending it out of the server up through the rack, usually to in different location in the data center and back. So with the need for agility, with the need for performance, right, that adds a lot of latency. Plus when you start needing to scale, that means adding more and more network connections, more and more appliances. So it can get very costly as well as impacting the performance. The other way that organizations are seeking to solve this problem is by taking the software itself and deploying it on the servers. Okay. So that's a, it's a great approach, right? It brings it really close to the applications, but the things you start running into there, there's a couple of things. One is that you start seeing that the DevOps team start taking on that networking and security responsibility, which they >>Don't want to >>Do, they don't want to do right. And the operations teams loses a little bit of visibility into that. Um, plus when you load the software onto the server, you're taking up precious CPU cycles. So if you're really wanting your applications to perform at an optimized state, having additional software on there, isn't going to, isn't going to do it. So, you know, when we think about all those types of things, right, and certainly the other side effects of that is the impact of the performance, but there's also a cost. So if you have to buy more servers because your CPU's are being utilized, right, and you have hundreds or thousands of servers, right, those costs are going to add up. So what, what Nvidia and pluribus have done by working together is to be able to take some of those services and be able to deploy them onto a smart Nick, right? >>To be able to deploy the DPU based smart SMARTNICK into the servers themselves. And then pluribus has come in and said, we're going to unify create that unified fabric across the networking space, into those networking services all the way down to the server. So the benefits of having that are pretty clear in that you're offloading that capability from the server. So your CPU's are optimized. You're saving a lot of money. You're not having to go outside of the server and go to a different rack somewhere else in the data center. So your performance is going to be optimized as well. You're not going to incur any latency hit for every trip round trip to the, to the firewall and back. So I think all those things are really important. Plus the fact that you're going to see from a, an organizational aspect, we talked about the dev ops and net ops teams. The network operations teams now can work with the security teams to establish the security policies and the networking policies. So that they've dev ops teams. Don't have to worry about that. So essentially they just create the guardrails and let the dev op team run. Cause that's what they want. They want that agility and speed. >>Yeah. Your point about CPU cycles is key. I mean, it's estimated that 25 to 30% of CPU cycles in the data center are wasted. The cores are wasted doing storage offload or, or networking or security offload. And, you know, I've said many times everybody needs a nitro like Amazon nugget, but you can't go, you can only buy Amazon nitro if you go into AWS. Right. Everybody needs a nitro. So is that how we should think about this? >>Yeah. That's a great analogy to think about this. Um, and I think I would take it a step further because it's, it's almost the opposite end of the spectrum because pluribus and video are doing this in a very open way. And so pluribus has always been a proponent of open networking. And so what they're trying to do is extend that now to these distributed services. So leverage working with Nvidia, who's also open as well, being able to bring that to bear so that organizations can not only take advantage of these distributed services, but also that unified networking fabric, that unified cloud fabric across that environment from the server across the switches, the other key piece of what pluribus is doing, because they've been doing this for a while now, and they've been doing it with the older application environments and the older server environments, they're able to provide that unified networking experience across a host of different types of servers and platforms. So you can have not only the modern application supported, but also the legacy environments, um, you know, bare metal. You could go any type of virtualization, you can run containers, et cetera. So a wide gambit of different technologies hosting those applications supported by a unified cloud fabric from pluribus. >>So what does that mean for the customer? I don't have to rip and replace my whole infrastructure, right? >>Yeah. Well, think what it does for, again, from that operational efficiency, when you're going from a legacy environment to that modern environment, it helps with the migration helps you accelerate that migration because you're not switching different management systems to accomplish that. You've got the same unified networking fabric that you've been working with to enable you to run your legacy as well as transfer over to those modern applications. Okay. >>So your people are comfortable with the skillsets, et cetera. All right. I'll give you the last word. Give us the bottom line here. >>So yeah, I think obviously with all the modern applications that are coming out, the distributed application environments, it's really posing a lot of risk on these organizations to be able to get not only security, but also visibility into those environments. And so organizations have to find solutions. As I said, at the beginning, they're looking to drive operational efficiency. So getting operational efficiency from a unified cloud networking solution, that it goes from the server across the servers to multiple different environments, right in different cloud environments is certainly going to help organizations drive that operational efficiency. It's going to help them save money for visibility, for security and even open networking. So a great opportunity for organizations, especially large enterprises, cloud providers who are trying to build that hyperscaler like environment. You mentioned the nitro card, right? This is a great way to do it with an open solution. >>Bob, thanks so much for, for coming in and sharing your insights. Appreciate it. >>You're welcome. Thanks. >>Thanks for watching the program today. Remember all these videos are available on demand@thekey.net. You can check out all the news from today@siliconangle.com and of course, pluribus networks.com many thanks diplomas for making this program possible and sponsoring the cube. This is Dave Volante. Thanks for watching. Be well, we'll see you next time.

>>Okay, let's kick things off. We're here at my capital. One of the CMO of pluribus networks and AMI by Dani VP of networking, marketing developer ecosystem at Nvidia. Great to have you welcome folks. Thank you. Thanks. So let's get into the, the problem situation with cloud unified network. What problems are out there? What challenges do cloud operators have Mike let's get into? >>Yeah, really, you know, the challenges we're looking at are for non hyperscalers that's enterprises, governments, tier two service providers, cloud service providers, and the first mandate for them is to become as agile as a hyperscaler. So they need to be able to deploy services and security policies in seconds. They need to be able to abstract the complexity of the network and define things in software while it's accelerated in hardware. Really ultimately they need a single operating model everywhere. And then the second thing is they need to distribute networking and security services out to the edge of the host. We're seeing a growth in cyber attacks. It's it's not slowing down. It's only getting worse and, you know, solving for this security problem across clouds is absolutely critical. And the way to do it is to move security out to the host. >>Okay. With that goal in mind, what's the pluribus vision. How does this tie together? >>Yeah, so basically what we see is that this demands a new architecture and that new architecture has four tenants. The first tenant is unified and simplified cloud networks. If you look at cloud networks today, there's, there's sort of like discrete bespoke cloud networks, you know, per hypervisor, per private cloud edge cloud public cloud. Each of the public clouds have different networks that needs to be unified. You know, if we want these folks to be able to be agile, they need to be able to issue a single command or instantiate a security policy across all of those locations with one command and not have to go to each one. The second is like I mentioned, distributed security, distributed security without compromise, extended out to the host is absolutely critical. So micro-segmentation and distributed firewalls, but it doesn't stop there. They also need pervasive visibility. You know, it's, it's, it's sort of like with security, you really can't see you can't protect what you can't see. >>So you need visibility everywhere. The problem is visibility to date has been very expensive. Folks have had to basically build a separate overlay network of taps, packet brokers, tap aggregation infrastructure that really needs to be built into this unified network I'm talking about. And the last thing is automation. All of this needs to be SDN enabled. So this is related to my comment about abstraction abstract, the complexity of all these discreet networks, physic whatever's down there in the physical layer. Yeah. I don't want to see it. I want abstract it. I wanted to find things in software, but I do want to leverage the power of hardware to accelerate that. So that's the fourth tenant is SDN automation. >>Mike, we've been talking on the cable a lot about this architectural shift and customers are looking at this. This is a big part of everyone who's looking at cloud operations next gen, how do we get there? How do customers get this vision realized? >>That's a great question. And I appreciate the tee up. I mean, we're, we're here today for that reason. We're introducing two things today. The first is a unified cloud networking vision. And that is a vision of where pluribus is headed with our partners like Nvidia longterm. And that is about deploying a common operating model, SDN enabled SDN, automated hardware, accelerated across all clouds and whether that's underlying overlay switch or server hype, any hypervisor infrastructure containers, any workload doesn't matter. So that's ultimately where we want to get. And that's what we talked about earlier. The first step in that vision is what we call the unified cloud fabric. And this is the next generation of our adaptive cloud fabric. And what's nice about this is we're not starting from scratch. We have an award-winning adaptive cloud fabric product that is deployed globally. And in particular we're very proud of the fact that it's deployed in over a hundred tier one mobile operators as the network fabric for their 4g and 5g virtualized cores. We know how to build carrier grade networking infrastructure. What we're doing now to realize this next generation unified cloud fabric is we're extending from the switch to this Nvidia Bluefield to DPU. We, >>No, there's all that up real quick. That's a good, that's a good prop. That's the blue field and video. >>It's the Nvidia Bluefield two DPU data processing unit. And you know, what we're doing fundamentally is extending our SDN automated fabric, the unified cloud fabric out to the host, but it does take processing power. So we knew that we didn't want to do, we didn't want to implement that running on the CPU, which is what some other companies do because it consumes revenue generating CPU's from the application. So a DPU is a perfect way to implement this. And we knew that Nvidia was the leader with this blue field too. And so that is the first that's, that's the first step in the getting into realizing this vision >>And video has always been powering some great workloads of GPU. Now you've got DP networking, and then video is here. What is the relationship with clothes? How did that come together? Tell us the story. >>Yeah. So, you know, we've been working with pluribus for quite some time. I think the last several months was really when it came to fruition and what pluribus is trying build and what Nvidia has. So we have, you know, this concept of a Bluefield data processing unit, which if you think about it, conceptually does really three things, offload, accelerate an isolate. So offload your workloads from your CPU to your data processing unit infrastructure workloads, that is a accelerate. So there's a bunch of acceleration engine. So you can run infrastructure workloads much faster than you would otherwise, and then isolation. So you have this nice security isolation between the data processing unit and your other CPU environment. And so you can run completely isolated workloads directly on the data processing unit. So we introduced this, you know, a couple of years ago, and with pluribus, you know, we've been talking to the pluribus team for quite some months now. >>And I think really the combination of what pluribus is trying to build and what they've developed around this unified cloud fabric is fits really nicely with the DPU and running that on the DPU and extending it really from your physical switch, all the way to your host environment, specifically on the data processing unit. So if you think about what's happening as you add data processing units to your environment. So every server we believe over time is going to have data processing units. So now you'll have to manage that complexity from the physical network layer to the host layer. And so what pluribus is really trying to do is extending the network fabric from the host, from the switch to the host, and really have that single pane of glass for network operators to be able to configure provision, manage all of the complexity of the network environment. >>So that's really how the partnership truly started. And so it started really with extending the network fabric, and now we're also working with them on security. So, you know, if you sort of take that concept of isolation and security isolation, what pluribus has within their fabric is the concept of micro-segmentation. And so now you can take that extended to the data processing unit and really have isolated micro-segmentation workloads, whether it's bare metal cloud native environments, whether it's virtualized environments, whether it's public cloud, private cloud hybrid cloud. So it really is a magical partnership between the two companies with their unified cloud fabric running on, on the DPU. >>I love about this conversation is it reminds me of when you have these changing markets, the product gets pulled out of the market and, and you guys step up and create these new solutions. And I think this is a great example. So I have to ask you, how do you guys differentiate what sets this apart for customers with what's in it for the, >>Yeah. So I mentioned, you know, three things in terms of the value of what the Bluefield brings, right? There's offloading, accelerating, isolating, that's sort of the key core tenants of Bluefield, so that, you know, if you sort of think about what, what Bluefield, what we've done, you know, in terms of the differentiation, we're really a robust platform for innovation. So we introduced Bluefield to last year, we're introducing Bluefield three, which is our next generation of Bluefields, you know, we'll have five X, the arm compute capacity. It will have 400 gig line rate acceleration for X better crypto acceleration. So it will be remarkably better than the previous generation. And we'll continue to innovate and add, you know, chips to our portfolio every, every 18 months to two years. So that's sort of one of the key areas of differentiation. The other is the, if you look at Nvidia and, and you know, what we're sort of known for is really known for our AI artificial intelligence and our artificial intelligence software, as well as our GPU. >>So you look at artificial intelligence and the combination of artificial intelligence plus data processing. This really creates the faster, more efficient, secure AI systems from, you know, the core of your data center all the way out to the edge. And so with Nvidia, we really have these converged accelerators where we've combined the GPU, which does all your AI processing with your data processing with the DPU. So we have this convergence really nice convergence of, of that area. And I would say the third area is really around our developer environment. So, you know, one of the key, one of our key motivations at Nvidia is really to have our partner ecosystem, embrace our technology and build solutions around our technology. So if you look at what we've done with the DPU, with credit and an SDK, which is an open SDK called Doka, and it's an open SDK for our partners to really build and develop solutions using Bluefield and using all these accelerated libraries that we expose through Doka. And so part of our differentiation is really building this open ecosystem for our partners to take advantage and build solutions around our technology. >>You know, it's exciting is when I hear you talk, it's like you realize that there's no one general purpose network anymore. Everyone has their own super environment Supercloud or these new capabilities. They can really craft their own, I'd say custom environment at scale with easy tools. Right. And it's all kind of, again, this is the new architecture Mike, you were talking about, how does customers run this effectively? Cost-effectively and how do people migrate? >>Yeah, I think that is the key question, right? So we've got this beautiful architecture. You, you know, Amazon nitro is a, is a good example of, of a smart NIC architecture that has been successfully deployed, but enterprises and serve tier two service providers and tier one service providers and governments are not Amazon, right? So they need to migrate there and they need this architecture to be cost-effective. And, and that's, that's super key. I mean, the reality is deep user moving fast, but they're not going to be deployed everywhere on day one. Some servers will ha have DPS right away. Some servers will have deep use in a year or two. And then there are devices that may never have DPS, right? IOT gateways, or legacy servers, even mainframes. So that's the beauty of a solution that creates a fabric across both the switch and the DPU, right? >>And by leveraging the Nvidia Bluefield DPU, what we really like about it is it's open and that drives cost efficiencies. And then, you know, with this, with this, our architectural approach effectively, you get a unified solution across switch and DPU workload independent doesn't matter what hypervisor it is, integrated visibility, integrated security, and that can create tremendous cost efficiencies and really extract a lot of the expense from, from a capital perspective out of the network, as well as from an operational perspective, because now I have an SDN automated solution where I'm literally issuing a command to deploy a network service or to create or deploy our security policy and is deployed everywhere, automatically saving the oper, the network operations team and the security operations team time. >>All right. So let me rewind that because that's super important. Get the unified cloud architecture, I'm the customer, but it's implemented, what's the value again, take, take me through the value to me. I have a unified environment. What's the value. >>Yeah. So I mean, the value is effectively. So there's a few pieces of value. The first piece of value is I'm creating this clean D mark. I'm taking networking to the host. And like I mentioned, we're not running it on the CPU. So in implementations that run networking on the CPU, there's some conflict between the dev ops team who owned the server and the NetApps team who own the network because they're installing software on the, on the CPU stealing cycles from what should be revenue generating CPU's. So now by, by terminating the networking on the DPU, we click create this real clean DMARC. So the dev ops folks are happy because they don't necessarily have the skills to manage network and they don't necessarily want to spend the time managing networking. They've got their network counterparts who are also happy the NetApps team, because they want to control the networking. >>And now we've got this clean DMARC where the dev ops folks get the services they need and the NetApp folks get the control and agility they need. So that's a huge value. The next piece of value is distributed security. This is essential. I mentioned earlier, you know, put pushing out micro-segmentation and distributed firewall, basically at the application level, right, where I create these small, small segments on an application by application basis. So if a bad actor does penetrate the perimeter firewall, they're contained once they get inside. Cause the worst thing is a bad actor penetrates at perimeter firewall, and it can go wherever they want and wreak havoc, right? And so that's why this, this is so essential. And the next benefit obviously is this unified networking operating model, right? Having an operating model, switch and server underlay and overlay, workload agnostic, making the life of the NetApps teams much easier so they can focus their time on really strategy instead of spending an afternoon, deploying a single V LAN for example. >>Awesome. And I think also from my standpoint, I mean, perimeter security is pretty much, I mean, they're out there, it gets the firewall still out there exists, but pretty much they're being breached all the time, the perimeter. So you have to have this new security model. And I think the other thing that you mentioned, the separation between dev ops is cool because the infrastructure is code is about making the developers be agile and build security in from day one. So this policy aspect is, is huge new control points. I think you guys have a new architecture that enables the security to be handled more flexible. Right. That seems to be the killer feature, >>Right? Yeah. If you look at the data processing unit, I think one of the great things about sort of this new architecture, it's really the foundation for zero trust it's. So like you talked about the perimeter is getting breached. And so now each and every compute node has to be protected. And I think that's sort of what you see with the partnership between pluribus and Nvidia is the DPU is really the foundation of zero trust. And pluribus is really building on that vision with allowing sort of micro-segmentation and being able to protect each and every compute node as well as the underlying network. >>And this is an illustration of how the market's evolving architectures are being reshaped and refactored for cloud scale and all this new goodness with data. So I got to ask how you guys go into market together. Michael, start with you. What's the relationship look like in the go to market with an Nvidia? >>Sure. I mean, we're, you know, we're super excited about the partnership. Obviously we're here together. We think we've got a really good solution for the market, so we're jointly marketing it. You know, obviously we appreciate that Nvidia is open that's, that's sort of in our DNA, we're about open networking. They've got other ISV who are gonna run on Bluefield too. We're probably going to run on other DPS in the future, but right now we're we feel like we're partnered with the number one provider of DPS in the world and super excited about making a splash with it >>In video, get the hot product. >>Yeah. So Bluefield too, as I mentioned was GA last year, we're introducing well, we now also have the converged accelerator. So I talked about artificial intelligence or artificial intelligence software with the Bluefield DPU, all of that put together on a converged accelerator. The nice thing there is you can either run those workloads. So if you have an artificial intelligence workload and an infrastructure workload, you can warn them separately on the same platform or you can actually use, you can actually run artificial intelligence applications on the Bluefield itself. So that's what the converged accelerator really brings the table. So that's available now. Then we have Bluefield three, which will be available late this year. And I talked about sort of, you know, how much better that next generation of Bluefield is in comparison to Bluefield two. So we will see Bluefield three shipping later on this year, and then our software stack, which I talked about, which is called Doka we're on our second version are DACA one dot two. >>We're releasing Doka one dot three in about two months from now. And so that's really our open ecosystem framework. So allow you to program the Bluefields. So we have all of our acceleration libraries, security libraries, that's all packed into this SDK called Doka. And it really gives that simplicity to our partners to be able to develop on top of Bluefield. So as we add new generations of Bluefield, you know, next, next year, we'll have, you know, another version and so on and so forth. Doka is really that unified unified layer that allows Bluefield to be both forwards compatible and backwards compatible. So partners only really have to think about writing to that SDK once and then it automatically works with future generations of Bluefields. So that's sort of the nice thing around, around Doka. And then in terms of our go to market model, we're working with every, every major OEM. So later on this year, you'll see, you know, major server manufacturers releasing Bluefield enabled servers, so more to come >>Save money, make it easier, more capabilities, more workload power. This is the future of, of cloud operations. Yeah. >>And one thing I'll add is we are, we have a number of customers as you'll hear in the next segment that are already signed up and we'll be working with us for our early field trial starting late April early may. We are accepting registrations. You can go to www.pluribusnetworks.com/e F T if you're interested in signing up for being part of our field trial and, and providing feedback on the product, >>Awesome innovation and network. Thanks so much for sharing the news. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much. Okay. In a moment, we'll be back to the deeper in the product, the integration security zero trust use cases. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage.

(bright music) >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to the CUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase around open cloud innovations. It's the season two episode one of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem and talking about open source and innovation. I'm John Furrier, your host. Today, we're joined by two great guests. Dan Garfield, chief open source officer and co-founder of Codefresh IO, and Raziel Tabib, CEO and co-founder. Two co-founders in the middle of all the innovation. Gentlemen thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So you guys have a great platform and as cloud native goes mainstream in the enterprise and for developers, the big topic is unification, end-to-end, horizontally scalable, leveraging data. All these things around agile that I call agile cloud next level. This is kind of what we're seeing. The CNCF is growing. You've seen KubeCon every year is more about these kinds of things. Words like orchestration, Kubernetes, container, security. All of those complexities are now at the center of making things easier for developers. This is a key value proposition and you guys at Codefresh are offering really the first enterprise delivery solution powered by Argo, which is an open source project. Again, open source driving really big changes. So let's get into it. And first of all, congratulations, and thanks for working on this project. What's so special about- >> Thank you for that. >> Argo the project, and why have you guys decided to build a platform on it, and where is this coming together? Take us through why this is so important. >> I think Argo has been a very fast growing open source project for multiple reasons. A, it has been built for the new way of building and deploying an application. It's cloud native. You mentioned Kubernetes becoming kind of the de facto way of running application. It's the de facto way to run automation and pipeline. But also Argo has been built from the ground up to the latest practices of how we deploy software. We deploy software now differently. We deploy it using a GitOps practice. We're deploying it using canary blue-green progressive deployment. And Argo has been built around these practices, around these technologies, and has been very much widely adopted by the community. In the past, the KubeCon you've mentioned, Argo was all over the place. And we were very glad to be working with the community to talk about what the next steps with Argo. >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I would like to just follow up on that because you see this being talked about. It always comes up, where is open source really outside of a pure contributors matter? And when you have corporations contributing, you seeing this has been the trend. You saw it with Lyft, with Envoy, companies doing more and more open source. This is part of a big collaboration. And again, this comes back down to this whole why it's relevant and why it's so special with Argo. Continue to talk about relationship because it's not just you guys, it's now community. >> Yeah, I can speak to that. The Argo project is something that we maintain in partnership with several other companies and really our relationship with it is that this is something that we're actively contributing to. This is something that we're helping build the roadmap on and planning the events around and all those kinds of things. And we're doing that because we really believe in this technology and we've built our platform on it. So when you deploy Codefresh, you're deploying technology that's built directly on Argo and is designed specifically to solve that problem that you spoke to at the top of the hour. We all want to deliver software faster. We all want to have fewer regressions. We want to have fewer breaking changes. We want software to be super reliable. We want to be comfortable with what we're doing. That's really why we picked Argo because that technology that we have it is to Raziel's point delivered in this new way. It's delivered using GitOps. And that's a whole revolution and change in the way that people build and deploy software. And bringing cohesion into that experience is so critical to building the confidence that lets you actually deploy often and frequently and more. >> Dan, if you don't mind just expanding on that one point about the problem you solve, because to me, this has been kind of that evolution. It's almost like, yeah, there's been problems, plural, and opportunities that you saw with those in growing markets like this with DevOps and DevSecOps and now cloud native. What is the catalyst behind all of this? What was the epiphany behind it? How did it get so much momentum? What was it really doing under the covers? >> Well, it's a very simple and easy to use set of tools. And that's one of the big things is that if you look at the ideas of GitOps and there's actually a foundation around this that were part of called open GitOps to GitOps working group under the CNCF. And those principles of, I want to, yes, do my software defined as code. I want to do my infrastructure defined as code and I need something monitoring by production run times and making sure that the declared desired state is always matching the actual state. Those principles have actually been around for a number of years. And with Kubernetes, we really unlocked an API that allowed us to start doing GitOps and this is why we bring in Argo and you see the rise of Argo CD and other workflows and what we've been doing is really because that technology has been unlocked now. So the ability to define how your software is supposed to run and now your entire software delivery stack should run, all defined and then monitored and then kept in check using the GitOps operator. That critical unlock is what's really driving the massive adoption. And like Raziel said, Argo is the fastest growing and most popular open source project for delivering software. And it's not even close. >> Yeah, this is really great point. And I want to get into that 'cause I want to know why, what you guys do on your platform versus the open source and get that relationship settled? Before we get there, though, I want to get your reaction to some of the commentary in the industry 'cause GitOps trend has been exploding into new directions. I mean, it used to be a term about 10 years ago called big data. And at the beginning where data was all big data. Now it was DevOps revolution around data as well. But now you're hearing people talk about big code. Like, I mean, the code bases are becoming so huge. So as a developer, you're leveraging large open source code. This idea of the software delivery with existing code and new code just adds to more code. There's more code being developed every day. >> There is more code delivered every day. And I think that organization realize today, almost in every industry that they have to pace up how fast and how frequent they update their software delivery. We're living in a world in which every aspect of our life has been disrupted by software and organization realize that they have to keep up and figure out how to deploy software more frequent and more lively. And I think, you mentioned that really Kubernetes, the cloud native became the de facto way of running application. I think most of organization has made that decision to move into cloud native. The second question is after, is okay, now we have all applications running, how fast and how more frequent we can deploy applications to the cloud native? And that's the stage in which we're super excited about Argo and our up platform because that's basically streamline the building application for these cloud native, deploying applications for the cloud native, and so on. >> Yeah, and I think that highlights the business value. You getting a lot of the conversations with businesses that say they want the modern application on the cloud scale. And at the end of the day, it comes down to speed and security. So how fast can I get the app out? How well does it work? Does it run performance? And does it have security? And I don't want a slow. >> Exactly. Exactly. It kind of oversimplifies it, but that's kind of the net net. So when you look at Argo open source, what's that's done and kind of where you guys are taking it. Can you talk about the differences between your enterprise version and the open source version and the interplay there, the relationship, the business model health customers can play on both sides or understand the difference? >> Sure. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead, Raziel. Okay, so I think Argo, as you mentioned, is probably the most advanced technology today to both run pipelines. They're like events to trigger pipelines and Argo work for the one that pipelines, the Argo CD for GitOps and Rollout, for Canary blue-green strategies. And the adoption is really exploding. Just as an Advocate that we had in December, we have worked with the community and organized ArgoCon events in which we had initially kind of thought about 500 attendees. And so we have more than 4,000 registrants and majority of them are coming from enterprise. Now as we have talked to the community during this conference and figure out, okay, so what are the things that you're still missing? And that will help you take the benefit that you get from Argo to the next level. The few things that came up. One is Argo is a great technology. However, Argo now is fragmented into four projects. There is an advance. There is workflow. There is Argo CD. And there is Argo Rollout. And there is a need to bring them all together into a solid platform, solid one run time that can be easily installed, monitor all of these in a single UI, in a single control plane. That's one aspect. The second is the scalability. Really being able to manage it centrally across multiple clusters, not in one cluster. And what we bring in with the new one, we're so excited about this platform, is we're bringing that big. The first to get all of these four projects in one runtime, and one control plane, but also allow the community to run it across multiple cluster from one place getting into the solution, not just as a technology. >> If I may add to that, the value of bringing these projects together, it provides so many insights. So when you're trying to figure out, there's some breaking change that has been made, but you don't necessarily know where it is because you have a lot of microservices that are out there. You have a lot of teams working on it. By bringing all of these things together, we're able to look at all of the commits, all of the deployments, all of the Jira issues. All of these components combined together, so you really get a single view where you can see everything that's going on. And this is another element where when you're trying to deploy software at scale, you're trying to deliver it faster. People are getting a little bit overwhelmed because there are so many updates and so many different services and so many teams working that they're starting to miss that visibility. So this is what we want to bring into the ecosystem is we really want them that visibility to be super clear. And by bringing all of the Argo components, the Argo tools together, we're able to do that in a single dashboard. >> Yeah, so if I get this right, let me just double click on that because it sounds like, yeah, Argo's great. It's been organically growing, a lot of different components to it, but when you start getting into pushing code in an organization, you have, I call the old-school version control kind of vibe going on where it's like you don't know what's out there and how that affects the system as it's a distributed system, which cloud is. There are consequences when stuff breaks. So we all know that. Is that kind of where you guys are getting at? The challenge is actually the opportunity at the same time where it's all goodness, but then when you start looking at scale and the system impact, is that kind of where the open source and you guys pick up, is that right? >> This is one aspect. I think the second one is that again, when you look at each individual component of Argo, each provide a lot of value by itself. But when you sum it, the value of the sum is greater than the value of the individual. So when you're taking, really the events and workflow, Argo CD and Argo Rollout, and you bring them all together into single runtime. The value of its time is really automation all the way from code to cloud. It's not breaking into, there is like an automation for CI, there's an automation for CD, there's information for progressive delivery. It's actually automated all the way from the Git commit through the GitOps through the deployment strategy, and so on. And being able to monitor it and scale it in the enterprise scale. So, of course, it's helping enterprise and make Argo to some level more crucial for enterprise, if I may say, but second is really bringing all of these components together and get the outcome be greater than the individual parts. >> Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, make it make a commercial grade, if you will, for enterprise who wants to have support and consistency and whatnot. What other problems are you solving? Dan, can you chime in on the whole, how you guys resolve some of these challenges for the enterprise? Because, again, some stability is key as well, but also the business benefit has got to be there for the development teams. >> Yeah. So there's several. One aspect is that the way that most people operate today is they essentially do a bunch of commands and engage with systems. And then hopefully at the end, they write those things to Git. And this is a little bit backwards if you think about it because there's a situation where you can end up with things in production that were never checked in, or maybe somebody is operating and they're making a change. If we look at most of the downtime that's occurred over the last two years, it's because people have flubbed a key when they were typing in a command or something like that. The way that this system works is that we provide an interface, both the CLI and the GUI, where those operations interactions actually end with a Git commit. So rather than doing an operation and then hopefully committing to Git, most of the operations are actually done first in Git, or if there is something that can't be done first in Git, it's maybe bootstrapped and then committed to Git as part of a single command. So this means you have end-to-end traceability. It also means your auditability is way better. And then the second, the other component that we're adding is that security and scale layer. So we are securing these things, we're building in single sign-on, and all those robust security things you would expect to have across all these instances. So many organizations, when they're building their software delivery tools, they have to deploy instances in many locations. And so this is how you end up with companies that have 5,000 instances that are all out of date and insecure. Well with Codefresh, if you need to deploy a component onto this end cluster or something like that, you may have thousands of them. All of those are monitored and taken care of in a centralized way, so I can do all of my updates at once. I can make sure they're all up to date. I'm not running with a bunch of known CVEs or something like that and it's clear. The components are also designed in an architectural way. So that only the information that is needed is ever passed out. So I can have a cluster that is remotely managed, that checks out code, that the control plane never has access to. So this hybrid model has been really popular with our customers. We have customers in healthcare, we have customers in defense and in financial services, all these regulated industries. The flow of information is really critical. So this hybrid model allows you to deploy something that has the ease of a SaaS solution, but has the security of an on-prem solution while being centrally managed and easy to take care of. >> Yeah, it's a platform. It's what it is. It's not a tool. It's not a tool anymore. It's a platform. >> Exactly. >> I think the foundational aspect of this is critical. And you mentioned automation before. If you're going to go end-to-end automation, you have some stuff in the system that whether it hasn't been checked in yet. I mean, we know what this leads to. Disaster or a lot of troubleshooting and disruption. That's what it seems to solve. Am I getting that right? Is that right? >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, it helps automate the whole process. But as you say, it's really like identify what needs not to be going all the way to production and really kind of avoid vulnerabilities or any flaws in the software. So it automates everything, but in a way that the automation can identify issues and avoid them from coming into the production. >> Well, great stuff here. I've got to ask you guys now that you've got that settled. It's really, I see the value there, how you guys are letting it grow organically and with Argo and then building that platform for businesses and developers. It's really cool. And I see the foundational value there. It just only gets better. How you guys contributing back to open source and helping the wider GitOps and Argo communities? Because this is, again, the rising tide that's bringing all the boats into the harbor, so to speak. So this is a good trend and people will acknowledge that. So how's this going to work as you guys work back into the open source community? >> So we work closely with both myself and the other maintainers worked closely with the community on the roadmap and making sure that we're addressing issues. I think if you look in the last quarter, we probably have upwards of 40 or 50 different issues that we've solved in terms of fixing a bug or adding features or things like that. So making sure that these tools, which are really the undergirding components of our platform, they have to be really robust. They have to be really strong. And so we're contributing those things back. And then when it comes to the scalability side, these are things that we can build into the platform. So the value should be really clear. I can deploy this, I can manage it myself, I can build tools on top of it. And if I want to start doing it at scale, maybe I want support. That's when I really am going to go to Codefresh and start saying, let's get the enterprise little platform. >> Awesome. GitOps, a lot of people like some naysayers may say, Hey, it's the latest fad. Is it here to stay? We were talking about big code earlier. GitOps, obviously seeing open source. Just every year, just get better and better and growth. I mean, I remember when I was breaking into the business, you have to sell under the table. Now it's all free and open and getting better every year. Just the growth of code. Is GitOps a fad? How do you talk to people who say that? I mean, besides slapping around saying wake up. I mean, how do you guys address that when people say it's just the latest fad? >> So if I may comment here and Dan feel free to chime in, I think that the GitOps is a continuation of a trend that everything is a source code. As a developer, many years ago myself and still writing code, always both code and code was the source of tool that's where we write the code. But now code actually is also describing how our application is running in production. And we've already seen kind of where it's get next. We also hear about infrastructure as a code. So now actually we storing the code the way the infrastructure should be. And I think that the benefit of storing all this configuration in a source code, which has been built to track changes, to be enabled to roll back, that is just going to be here to stay. And I think that's the new way of doing things. >> All right, gentlemen, great. Closing statements. Please share an update on the company. What it's all about? What event you got coming? I know you got a big launch. Can you take us through? Take us home. >> Join on February 1st, we're going to be launching the Codefresh software delivery platform. Raziel and I will be hosting the event. We've got a number of customers, a number of members of the community who are going to be joining us to show off that platform. So you're going to be able to see it in action, see how the features work, and understand the value of it. And you'll see how it works with GitOps. You'll see how it helps you deliver software at scale. That's February 1st. You can get information at codefresh.io. >> Raziel, Dan, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Pretty good showcase. Thanks for sharing. Congratulations. Great venture. Loved the approach. Love the growth in cloud native and you guys sure on the cutting edge. Fresh code, people love fresh code, codefresh.io. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay, this is the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. Cloud scale, software, data. That's the future of modern applications being developed, changing the game to the next level. This is the CUBE's coverage season two episode one of the ongoing AWS Startup series here in theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon and welcome back to Las Vegas. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of AWS 2021. My name is Dave Vellante. theCUBE goes out to the events. We extract the signal from the noise. Very few physical events this year doing a lot of hybrid stuff. It's great to be back in hybrid event... Physical event land, 25,000 people here. Probably a little few more registered than that. And then on the periphery, got to be another at least 10,000 people that came in, flew in and out, see what's happening. A bunch of VCs, checking things out, a few parties last night and so forth. A lot of action here. It's like re:Invent is back. Matt Coulter is here. He's a technical architect at Liberty Mutual. Matt, thanks for flying in from Belfast. Good to see ya. >> Dave, and thanks for having me today. >> Pleasure. So what's your role as a technical architect? Maybe describe that, we'll get into a little bit. >> Yeah so I am here to empower and enable our developers across the globe to rapidly deliver business value and solve problems for our customers in a well-architected way that doesn't introduce problems or risks, you know, later down the line. So instead of thinking of me as someone who directly every day, build software, I try to create the environment where other people can rapidly build software. >> That's, you know, it's interesting. because you're a developer, right? You can use like, "Hey I code." That's what normally you would say but you're actually creating frameworks and business model so that others can learn, teach them how to fish, so we speak. >> Yeah because I can only scale, there's a certain amount. Whereas if I can teach, there's 5,000 people in Liberty Mutual's tech organization. So if I can teach the 5,000 to be 5% better, it's way more than me even if I 10Xed >> When did you first touch the Cloud? >> Personally, it would have been four/five years ago. That's when I started in the Cloud. >> What was that experience like for you? >> Oh, it was hard. It was very different to anything that we'd done in the past. So it's because you... Traditionally, you would have just written your small piece of code. You would have had a big application that was out there, it had been out there maybe 20 years, it was deployed, and you were just adding a couple of lines. Whereas when you start putting stuff into the Cloud, it's out there. It's on the internet for anyone there to try and hack or try to get into. It was a bit overwhelming the amount that you needed to learn. So it was- >> Was it worth it? >> Oh yeah. Completely. (laughing) So that's the thing, that I would never go back to the way we did things before. And that's why I'm so passionate, enthusiastic about the stuff I've been doing. Because to me, the amount of benefits you can get, like now we can deliver thing. We have teams going out there and doing discovery and framing with the business. And they're pushing well-architected products three days later into production. That was unheard of before, you know, this year. >> Yeah. So you were part of Werner's keynote this morning. Of course that's always one of the keynotes that's most anticipated at re:Invent. It's on the sort of last day. He's awesome. This is you know, 10th year of re:Invent. He sort of did a look back. He started out (chuckles) he's just a cool guy and very passionate. But talk about what your role was in the keynote. >> Yeah so I had a section towards the end of the keynote, and I was to talk about Liberty Mutual's serverless first journey. I actually went through from 2014 through to the current day of all the major Cloud milestones that we've hit. And I talked through some of the impact it's had on our business and the impact it's had on our developers. And yeah it's just been this incredible journey where as I said, it was hard at the start. So we had to spark this culture within our company that we were going to empower and enable our developers and we were going to get them excited about doing this. And that's why we needed to make it safe. So there was a lot of work went down at the start to make the Cloud safe for our developers to experiment. And then the past two years have been known that it's safe, okay? Let's see what it can do. Let's go. >> Yeah so Liberty Mutual has been around many many years, Boston-based, you know, East Coast-based, my home city. I don't live in Boston but I consider it my city. And so talk about your business a little bit because you're an established company. I don't know, probably a hundred years old, right? Any all other newbies nipping at your business, right? Coming in with low-cost products. Maybe not bringing as much protection as you dig into it. But regardless, you've got to compete with them technically. So what are some of the drivers in your business and how are you using the Cloud to sort of defend your turf and grow? >> Yeah so first of all, we're 109 years old. (laughing) Yeah. So absolutely, there's an entire insurtech market of people here gunning for the big Liberty Mutual because we've been here for so long. And our whole thing is we're focused on our customers. So we want to be there for people in their time of need. Because at a point in time whenever you need insurance, typically something is going wrong. And that's why we're building innovative solutions like a serverless call center we built, that after natural disaster, it can automatically process claims in less than four minutes. So instead of having to wait on hold for maybe an hour, you can just text or pick up the phone, and four minutes later your claims are through. And that's we're using technology always focused on the customer. >> That's unbelievable. Think about that experience, to me. I mean I've filed claims before and it's, it's kind of time consuming. And you're saying you've compressed that to minutes? Days, weeks, you know, and now you've compressed that to minutes? >> Yeah. >> Tell us more about how you did that. >> And that's because it's a fully serverless solution that was built. So it doesn't require like people to scale. It can scale to whatever number of our customers need to make a claim at that point because that would typically be the bottleneck if there's some kind of natural disaster. So that means that if something happens we can just switch it on. And customers can choose not to use it. You can always choose to say I want to speak to a person. But now with this technology, we can just make it easy and just go. Everything, all the information we know in the back end, we just use it and actually make things better for you. >> You're talking about the impact that it had on your business and developers. So how do you quantify that? Maybe start with the business. Maybe share some ways in which you look at that measure. >> Yeah, so I mean, in terms of how we measure the impact of the Cloud on our business, we're always looking at our profitability and we're always looking, as I say, at our customers. And ideally, I want our Cloud bill to go down as our number of customers goes up because that's why we're using the serverless fast mindset, we call it. We don't want to build anything we don't have to build. We want to take the best that's out there and just piece it together and produce these products for our customers. So yeah, that's having an impact on our business because now developers aren't spending weeks, months, years doing all this configuration. And they can actually sit down with the business and understand how we write insurance. So now we can start being innovative with our products and talking about the real business instead of everything else. >> When you say you want your Cloud bill to go down, you know, it reminds me like in the old days of IT budgeting, right? It was always slash, do more with less cut, cut, cut, right? And it was kind of going in cycles. But with the Cloud a lot of customers that I talk to, they were like, might be going down as a percentage of revenues but actually it might be going up as you launch more projects because they're driving revenue. There's a tighter tie between revenue and Cloud bill. How do you look at that? >> Yeah. So I mean, with every project, you have to look at the worth-based development often and whether or not it's going to hold this away in the market. And the key thing is with the serverless products that are being released now, they cost pennies if they're low scale. So you can actually launch a new product into the market and it maybe only cost you $20 to see if that thing would fit in the market. So by the time you're getting into the big bills you know whether or not you've got a market fit and you can decide whether you want to pivot. >> Oh wow. So you you've compressed, that's another business metric. You've compressed the time to get certainty around product market fit, right? Which is huge because you really can't go to market until you have product market fit (laughing) >> Exactly. You have to be. Thoroughly understand if it's going to work. >> Right because if you go to the market and you've got 50% churn. (laughing) Well, you don't want to be worried about the go-to market. You got to get back to the product so you can test that and you can generate. >> So that's why, yeah, As I said, we have developers who can go out and do discovery and framing on a potential product and deliver it three days later which (chuckles) >> How has the Cloud effected developer satisfaction or passion? I guess it's... I mean we're in AWS Cloud. Our developers, we tell them "Okay, you got to go back on-prem." They would say, "I quit." (laughing) How has it affected their lives? >> Yeah it's completely there for them, it's way better. So now we have way more ownership over any, you know, of everything we ever did. So it feels like you're truly a part of Liberty Mutual and you're solving Liberty's problems now. Because it's not a case of like, "Okay, let's put in a request to stand up a server, it's going to take six months. And then let's do some big long acquisition." It's a case of like, "Let's actually get done into the nitty gritty of what we going to build." And that's- >> How do you use the Cloud developer kit? Maybe you could talk about that. I mean, explain what it is. It's a framework. But explain from your perspective. >> Yeah so the Cloud typically, it started off, and lot of it was done by Cloud infrastructure engineers who created these big YAML files. That's how they defined all the stuff that's going to be deployed. But that's not typically the development language that most developers use. The CDK is in like Java, TypeScript, .NET, Python. The language is developers ready known love. And it means that they can use everything they already know from all of their previous development experience and bring it to the Cloud. And you see some benefits like, you get, I talked about this morning, a 1500 line YAML file was reduced to 14 lines of TypeScript. And that's what we're talking about with the cognitive difference for a developer using CDK versus anything else. >> Cognitive abstraction, >> Right? >> Yeah. And so it just simplifies your living and you spend more time doing cool stuff. >> Yeah we can write an abstraction for our specific needs once. And then everybody can use that abstraction. And if we want to make a change and make it better, everyone benefits instead of everybody doing the same thing all the time. >> So for people who are unfamiliar, what do you need? You need an AWS account, obviously. You got to get a command-line interface, I would imagine. maybe some Node.js often running, or is it- >> Yeah. So that's it. You need an AWS account, and then you need to install CDK, which is from Node Package Manager. And then from there, it depends on which way you want to start. You could use my project CDK patterns, has a whole ray of working patterns that you can clone among commands. You just have to type, like one command you've got a pattern, and then CDK deploy. And you'll have something working. >> Okay so what do you do day-to-day? You sort of, you evangelize folks to come in and get trained? Is there just like a backlog of people that want your time? How do you manage that? >> So I try to be the place that I'm needed the most based on impact of the business. And that's why I try to go in. Liberty split up into different areas and I try to go into those areas, understand where they are versus where they need to be. And then if I can do that across everywhere, you can see the common thesis. And then I can see where I can have the most impact across the board instead of focusing on one micro place. So there's a variety of tools and techniques that I would do, you know, to go through that but that's the crux of it. >> So you look at your business across the portfolio, so you have portfolio view. And then you do a gap analysis essentially, say "Okay, where can I approach this framework and technology from a developer standpoint, add value? >> Yeah like I could go into every single team with every single project, draw it all out and like, what we call Wardley map, and then you can draw a line and then say "Everything blue in this line is undifferentiated, heavy-lifted. I want you to migrate that. And here's how you're going to do it I've already built the tools for that." And that's how we can drive those conversations. >> So, you know, it's funny, I spent a lot of time in the insurance business not in the business but consulting with heads of application development and looking at portfolios. And you know, they did their thing. But you know, a lot of people sort of question, "Can developers in an insurance company actually become cool Cloud native developers?" You're doing it, right? So that's going to be an amazing transformation for your colleagues and your industry. And it's happening as we look around here (indistinct) >> And that's the thing, in Liberty I'm not the only one. So there's Tommy Gloklin, he's an AWS hero, and there's Diali Mikan, who's an AWS hero. And Diali is in Workgrid but we're still all the same family. >> So what does it mean to be an AWS hero? >> Yeah so this is something that AWS has to offer you to join. So basically, it's about impacting the community. It's not... There's not like a checklist of items you can go through and you're hero. It's you have to be nominated internally through AWS, and then you have to have the right intentions. And yeah, just follow through. >> Dave: That's awesome. Yeah so our producer, Lynette, is looking for an Irish limerick. You know, every, say I'm half Irish is through my marriage. Dad, you didn't know that, did you? And every year we have a St Patrick's Day party and my daughter comes up with limericks. So I don't know, if you have one that you want to share. If you don't, that's fine. >> I have no limericks for now. I'm so sorry. (laughing) >> There once was a producer from, where are you from? (laughing) So where do you want to take this, Matt? What's your future look like with this program? >> So right now, today, I actually launched a book called the CDK book. >> Dave: Really? Awesome. >> Yeah So me and three other heroes got together and put everything we know about CDK and distilled it into one book. But the... I mean there's two sides, there's inside Liberty. The goal as I've mentioned is to get our developers to the point that they're talking about real insurance problems rather than tech. And then outside Liberty in the community the goal is things like CDK Day, which is a global conference that I created and run. And I want to just grow those farther and farther throughout the world so that eventually we can start learning you know, cross business, cross market, cross the main instead of just internally one company. >> It's impressive how tuned in you are to the business. Do you feel like the Cloud almost forces that alignment? >> It does. It definitely does. Because when you move quickly, you need to understand what you're doing. You can't bluff almost, you know. Like everything you're building you're demonstrating that every two weeks or faster. So you need to know the business to do it. >> Well, Matt, congratulations on all the great work that you've done and the keynote this morning. You know, true tech hero. We really appreciate your time coming in theCUBE. >> Thank you, Dave, for having me. >> Our pleasure. And thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE at AWS re:Invent. We are the leader global tech coverage. We'll be right back. (light upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCube's continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm Dave Nicholson, and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events this year with AWS and its partners with two live sets on the scene. In addition to two remote studios. And we'll have somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred guests on the program this year at re:Invent. I'm extremely delighted to welcome a very, very special guest. Right now. He served as the director of the NSA under two presidents, and was the first commander of the U.S Cyber Command. He's a Cube alumni, he's founder and co-CEO of IronNet Cybersecurity. General Keith Alexander. Thanks for joining us today General. >> Thanks, David. It's an honor to be here at re:Invent, you know, with AWS. All that they're doing and all they're making possible for us to defend sector states, companies and nations in cyber. So an honor to be here. >> Well, welcome back to theCube. Let's dive right in. I'd like to know how you would describe the current cyber threat landscape that we face. >> Well, I think it's growing. Well, let's start right out. You know, the good news or the bad news, the bad news is getting worse. We're seeing that. If you think about SolarWinds, you think about the Hafnium attacks on Microsoft. You think about this rapid growth in ransomware. We're seeing criminals and nation states engaging in ways that we've never seen in the past. It's more blatant. They're going after more quickly, they're using cyber as an element of national power. Let's break that down just a little bit. Do you go back to two, July. Xi Jinping, talked about breaking heads in bloodshed when he was referring to the United States and Taiwan. And this has gone hot and cold, that's a red line for him. They will do anything to keep Taiwan from breaking away. And this is a huge existential threat to us into the region. And when this comes up, they're going to use cyber to go after it. Perhaps even more important and closer right now is what's going on with Russia in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine. We saw this in 2014, when Russia took over the Crimea. The way they did it, staging troops. They did that in 2008 against Georgia. And now there are, by some reports over a hundred thousand troops on the border of Eastern Ukraine. Some call it an exercise, but that's exactly what they did in Georgia. That's what they did in the Crimea. And in both those cases, they preceded those attacks, those physical attacks with cyber attacks. If you go to 2017, when Russia hit the Ukrainian government with the NotPetya attack that had global repercussions. Russia was responsible for SolarWinds, they have attacked our infrastructure to find out what our government is doing and they continue going. This is getting worse. You know, it's interesting when you think about, so what do you do about something like that? How do we stop that? And the answer is we've got to work together. You know, Its slam commissioner addressed it. The meeting with the president on August 25th. This is a great statement by the CEO and chairman of Southern Company, Tom Fanning. He said this, "the war is being waged on our nation's critical infrastructure in particular, our energy sector, our telecommunications sector and financial sector." The private sector owns and operates 87% of the critical infrastructure in the United States, making collaboration between industry and the federal government imperative too, for these attacks. SO >> General, I want to dig just a little bit on that point that you make for generations, people have understood that the term is 'kinetic war', right? Not everyone has heard that phrase, but for generations we've understood the concept of someone dropping a bomb on a building as being an attack. You've just mentioned that, that a lot of these attacks are directed towards the private sector. The private sector doesn't have an army to respond to those attacks. Number one, that's our government's responsibility. So the question I have is, how seriously are people taking these kinds of threats when compared to the threat of kinetic war? Because my gosh, you can take down the entire electrical grid now. That's not something you can do with a single bomb. What are your, what are your thoughts on that? >> So you're hitting on a key point, a theoretical and an operational point. If you look back, what's the intent of warfare? It's to get the mass of people to give up. The army protects the mass of people in that fight. In cyber, there's no protection. Our critical infrastructure is exposed to our adversaries. That's the problem that we face. And because it's exposed, we have a tremendous vulnerability. So those who wish us harm, imagine the Colonial Pipeline attack an order of magnitude or two orders of magnitude bigger. The impact on our country would paralyze much of what we do today. We are not ready for that. That's the issue that Tom Fanning and others have brought up. We don't practice between the public sector and the private sector working together to defend this country. We need to do that. That's the issue that we have to really get our hands around. And when we talk about practice, what do we mean? It means we have to let that federal government, the ones that are going to protect us, see what's going on. There is no radar picture. Now, since we're at re:Invent, the cloud, where AWS and others have done, is create an infrastructure that allows us to build that bridge between the public and private sector and scale it. It's amazing what we can now do. We couldn't do that when I was running Cyber Command. And running Cyber Command, we couldn't see threats on the government. And we couldn't see threats on critical infrastructure. We couldn't see threats on the private sector. And so it all went and all the government did was say, after the fact you've been attacked. That's not helpful. >> So >> It's like they dropped a bomb. We didn't know. >> Yeah, so what does IronNet doing to kind of create this radar capability? >> So, well, thanks. That's a great question because there's four things that you really got to do. First. You've got to be able to detect the SolarWinds type attacks, which we did. You've got to have a hunt platform that can see what it is. You've got to be able to use machine learning and AI to really cut down the number of events. And the most important you need to be able to anonymize and share that into the cloud and see where those attacks are going to create that radar picture. So behavioral analytics, then you use signature based as well, but you need those sets of analytics to really see what's going on. Machine learning, AI, a hunt platform, and cloud. And then analytics in the cloud to see what's going on, creates that air traffic control, picture radar, picture for cyber. That's what we're doing. You see, I think that's the important part. And that's why we really value the partnership with AWS. They've been a partner with us for six years, helping us build through that. You can see what we can do in the cloud. We could never do in hardware alone. Just imagine trying to push out equipment and then do that for hundreds of companies. It's not viable. So SaaS, what we are as a SaaS company, you can now do that at scale, and you can push this out and we can create, we can defend this nation in cyber if we work together. And that's the thing, you know, I really, had a great time in the military. One of the things I learned in the military, you need to train how you're going to fight. They're really good at that. We did that in the eighties, and you can see what happened in 1990 in the Gulf war. We need to now do that between the public and private sector. We have to have those training. We need to continuously uplift our capabilities. And that's where the cloud and all these other things make that possible. That's the future of cybersecurity. You know, it's interesting David, our country developed the internet. We're the ones that pioneered that. We ought to be the first to secure. >> Seems to make sense. And when you talk about collective defense in this private public partnership, that needs to happen, you get examples of some folks in private industry and what they're doing, but, but talk a little bit more about, maybe what isn't happening yet. What do we need to do? I don't want you to necessarily get political and start making budgetary suggestions, but unless you want to, but what, but where do you see, where do we really need to push forward from a public perspective in order to make these connections? And then how is that connection actually happen? This isn't someone from the IronNet security service desk, getting on a red phone and calling the White House, how are the actual connections made? >> So it has to be, the connections have to be just like we do radar. You know, when you think about radars across our nation or radar operator doesn't call up one of the towers and say, you've got an aircraft coming at you at such and such a speed. I hope you can distinguish between those two aircraft and make sure they don't bump into each other. They get a picture and they get a way of tracking it. And multiple people can see that radar picture at a speed. And that's how we do air traffic control safety. We need the same thing in cyber, where the government has a picture. The private sector has a picture and they can see what's going on. The private sector's role is I'm going to do everything I can, you know, and this is where the energy sector, I use that quote from Tom Fanning, because what they're saying is, "it's our job to keep the grid up." And they're putting the resources to do it. So they're actually jumping on that in a great way. And what they're saying is "we'll share that with the government", both the DHS and DOD. Now we have to have that same picture created for DHS and DOD. I think one of the things that we're doing is we're pioneering the building of that picture. So that's what we do. We build the picture to bring people together. So think of that is that's the capability. Everybody's going to own a piece of that, and everybody's going to be operating in it. But if you can share that picture, what you can begin to do is say, I've got an attack coming against company A. Company A now sees what it has to do. It can get fellow companies to help them defend, collective defense, knowledge sharing, crowdsourcing. At the same time, the government can see that attack going on and say, "my job is to stop that." If it's DHS, I could see what I have to do. Within the country, DOD can say, "my job is to shoot the archers." How do we go do what we're authorized to do under rules of engagement? So now you have a way of the government and the private sector working together to create that picture. Then we train them and we train them. We should never have had an event like SolarWinds happen in the future. We got to get out in front. And if we do that, think of the downstream consequences, not only can we detect who's doing it, we can hold them accountable and make them pay a price. Right now. It's pretty free. They get in, pap, that didn't work. They get away free. That didn't work, we get away free. Or we broke in, we got, what? 18,000 companies in 30,000 companies. No consequences. In the future there should be consequences. >> And in addition to the idea of consequences, you know, in the tech sector, we have this concept of a co-op petition, where we're often cooperating and competing. The adversaries from, U.S perspective are also great partners, trading partners. So in a sense, it sounds like what you're doing is also kind of adhering to the old adage that, that good fences make for great neighbors. If we all know that our respective infrastructures are secure, we can sort of get on with the honest business of being partners, because you want to make the cost of cyber war too expensive. Is that, is that a fair statement? >> Yes. And I would take that analogy and bend it slightly to the following. Today every company defends itself. So you take 90 companies with 10 people, each doing everything they can to defend themselves. Imagine in the world we trying to build, those 90 companies work together. You have now 900 people working together for the collective defense. If you're in the C-suite or the board of those companies, which would rather have? 900 help new security or 10? This isn't hard. And so what we say is, yes. That neighborhood watch program for cyber has tremendous value. And beyond neighborhood watch, I can also share collaboration because, I might not have the best people in every area of cyber, but in those 900, there will be, and we can share knowledge crowdsource. So it's actually let's work together. I would call it Americans working together to defend America. That's what we need to do. And the states we going to have a similar thing what they're doing, and that's how we'll work this together. >> Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. General Alexander it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming on to theCube as part of our 2021 AWS re:Invent coverage. Are you going to get a chance to spend time during the conference in Las Vegas? So you just flying in, flying out. Any chance? >> Actually yeah. >> It's there, we're still negotiating working that. I've registered, but I just don't know I'm in New York city for two meetings and seeing if I can get to Las Vegas. A lot of friends, you know, Adam Solski >> Yes >> and the entire AWS team. They're amazing. And we really liked this partnership. I'd love to see you there. You're going to be there, David? Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And I look forward to that, so I hope hopefully we get that chance again. Thank you so much, General Alexander, and also thank you to our title sponsor AMD for sponsoring this year's re:Invent. Keep it right here for more action on theCube, you're leader in hybrid tech event coverage, I'm Dave Nicholson for the Cube. Thanks. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, and welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. We're here in person at a real event. I'm John farrier host of the cube, but Dave Nicholson, Michael has got great guests here. Two founders of brand new startup, one week old cable on ASCII and Dave Lawrence, uh, with chain guard, former Google employees, open source community members decided to start a company with five other people on total five total. Congratulations. Welcome to the cube. >>Thank you. Thank you for >>Having us. So tell us like a product, you know, we know you don't have a price. So take us through the story because this is one of those rare moments. We got great chance to chat with you guys just a week into the new forms company and the team. What's the focus, what's the vision. >>How far back do you want to go with this story >>And why you left Google? So, you know, we're a gin and tonics. We get a couple of beers I can do that. We can do that. Let's just take over the world. >>Yeah. So we both been at Google, uh, for awhile. Um, the last couple of years we've been really worried about and focused on open-source security risk and supply chain security in general and software. Um, it's been a really interesting time as you probably noticed, uh, to be in that space, but it wasn't that interesting two years ago or even a year and a half ago. Um, so we were doing a bunch of this work at Google and the open source. Nobody really understood it. People kind of looked at us funny at talks and conferences. Um, and then beginning of this year, a bunch of attacks started happening, uh, things in the headlines like solar winds, solar winds attack, like you say, it attack all these different ransomware things happening. Uh, companies and governments are getting hit with supply chain attacks. So overnight people kind of started caring and being really worried about the stuff that we've been doing for a while. So it was a pretty cool thing to be a part of. And it seemed like a good time to start a company and keep your >>Reaction to this startup. How do you honestly feel, I suppose, feeling super excited. Yeah. >>I am really excited. I was in stars before Google. So then I went to Google where there for seven, I guess, Dan, a little bit longer, but I was there for seven years on the product side. And then yeah, we, we, the open source stuff, we were really there for protecting Google and we both came from cloud before that working on enterprise product. So then sorta just saw the opportunity, you know, while these companies trying to scramble and then sort of figure out how to better secure themselves. So it seemed like a perfect, >>The start-up bug and you back in the start up, but it's the timing's perfect. I got to say, this is a big conversation supply chain from whether it's components and software now, huge attack vector, people are taking advantage of it super important. So I'm really glad you're doing it. But first explain to the folks watching what is supply chain software? What's the challenge? What is the, what is the supply chain security challenge or problem? >>Sure. Yeah, it's the metaphor of software supply chain. It's just like physical supply chain. That's where the name came from. And it, it really comes down to how the code gets from your team's keyboard, your team's fingers on those keyboards into your production environment. Um, and that's just the first level of it. Uh, cause nobody writes all of the code. They use themselves. We're here at cloud native con it's hundreds of open source vendors, hundreds of open libraries that people are reusing. So your, your trust, uh, radius and your attack radius extends to not just your own companies, your own developers, but to everyone at this conference. And then everyone that they rely on all the way out. Uh, it's quite terrifying. It's a surface, the surface area explode pretty quickly >>And people are going and the, and the targeting to, because everyone's touching the code, it's open. It's a lot of action going on. How do you solve the problem? What is the approach? What's the mindset? What's the vision on the problems solving solutions? >>Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think like you said, the first step is awareness. Like Dan's been laughing, he's been, he felt like a crazy guy in the corner saying, you know, stop building software underneath your desk and you know, getting companies, >>Hey, we didn't do, why don't you tell them? I was telling him for five years. >>Yeah. But, but I think one of his go-to lines was like, would you pick up a thumb drive off the side of the street and plug it into your computer? Probably not. But when you download, you know, an open source package or something, that's actually can give you more privileges and production environments and it's so it's pretty scary. Um, so I think, you know, for the last few years we've been working on a number of open source projects in this space. And so I think that's where we're going to start is we're going to look at those and then try to grow out the community. And we're, we're watching companies, even like solar winds, trying to piece these parts together, um, and really come up with a better solution for themselves. >>Are there existing community initiatives or open source efforts that are underway that you plan to participate in or you chart? Are you thinking of charting a new >>Path? >>Oh, it's that looks like, uh, Thomas. Yeah, the, the SIG store project we kicked off back in March, if you've covered that or familiar with that at all. But we kicked that off back in March of 2021 kind of officially we'd look at code for awhile before then the idea there was to kind of do what let's encrypted, uh, for browsers and Webster, um, security, but for code signing and open source security. So we've always been able to get code signing certificates, but nobody's really using them because they're expensive. They're complicated, just like less encrypted for CAS. They made a free one that was automated and easy to use for developers. And now people do without thinking about it in six stores, we tried to do the same thing for open source and just because of the headlines that were happening and all of the attacks, the momentum has just been incredible. >>Is it a problem that people just have to just get on board with a certain platform or tool or people have too many tools, they abandoned them there, their focus shifts is there. Why what's the, what's the main problem right now? >>Well, I think, you know, part of the problem is just having the tools easy enough for developers are going to want to use them and it's not going to get in our way. I think that's going to be a core piece of our company is really nailing down the developer experience and these toolings and like the co-sign part of SIG store that he was explaining, like it's literally one command line to sign, um, a package, assign a container and then one line to verify on the other side. And then these organizations can put together sort of policies around who they trust and their system like today it's completely black box. They have no idea what they're running and takes a re >>You have to vape to rethink and redo everything pretty much if they want to do it right. If they just kind of fixing the old Europe's sold next solar with basically. >>Yeah. And that's why we're here at cloud native con when people are, you know, the timing is perfect because people are already rethinking how their software gets built as they move it into containers and as they move it into Kubernetes. So it's a perfect opportunity to not just shift to Kubernetes, but to fix the way you build software from this, >>What'd you say is the most prevalent change mindset change of developers. Now, if you had to kind of, kind of look at it and say, okay, current state-of-the-art mindset of a developer versus say a few years ago, is it just that they're doing things modularly with more people? Or is it more new approaches? Is there a, is there a, >>I think it's just paying attention to your building release process and taking it seriously. This has been a theme for, since I've been in software, but you have these very fancy production data centers with physical security and all these levels of, uh, Preston prevention and making sure you can't get in there, but then you've got a Jenkins machine that's three years old under somebody's desk building the code that goes into there. >>It gets socially engineered. It gets at exactly. >>Yeah. It's like the, it's like the movies where they, uh, instead of breaking into jail, they hide in the food delivery truck. And it's, it's that, that's the metaphor that I like perfectly. The fence doesn't work. If your truck, if you open the door once a week, it doesn't matter how big defenses. Yeah. So that's >>Good Dallas funny. >>And I, I think too, like when I used to be an engineer before I joined Google, just like how easy it is to bring in a third party package or something, you know, you need like an image editing software, like just go find one off the internet. And I think, you know, developers are slowly doing a mind shift. They're like, Hey, if I introduce a new dependency, you know, there's going to be, I'm going to have to maintain this thing and understand >>It's a little bit of a decentralized view too. Also, you got a little bit of that. Hey, if you sign it, you own it. If it tracks back to you, okay, you are, your fingerprints are, if you will, or on that chain of >>Custody and custody. >>Exactly. I was going to say, when I saw chain guard at first of course, I thought that my pant leg riding a bike, but then of course the supply chain things coming in, like on a conveyor belt, conveyor, conveyor belt. But that, that whole question of chain of custody, it isn't, it isn't as simple as a process where someone grabs some code, embeds it in, what's going on, pushes it out somewhere else. That's not the final step typically. Yeah. >>So somebody else grabs that one. And does it again, 35 more times, >>The one, how do you verify that? That's yeah, it seems like an obvious issue that needs to be addressed. And yet, apparently from what you're telling us for quite a while, people thought you were a little bit in that, >>And it's not just me. I mean, not so Ken Thompson of bell labs and he wrote the book >>He wrote, yeah, it was a seatbelt that I grew >>Up on in the eighties. He gave a famous lecture called uh, reflections on trusting trust, where he pranked all of his colleagues at bell labs by putting a back door in a compiler. And that put back doors into every program that compiled. And he was so clever. He even put it in, he made that compiler put a backdoor into the disassembler to hide the back door. So he spent weeks and, you know, people just kind of gave up. And I think at that point they were just like, oh, we can't trust any software ever. And just forgot about it and kept going on and living their lives. So this is a 40 year old problem. We only care about it now. >>It's totally true. A lot of these old sacred cows. So I would have done life cycles, not really that relevant anymore because the workflows are changing. These new Bev changes. It's complete dev ops is taken over. Let's just admit it. Right. So if we have ops is taken over now, cloud native apps are hitting the scene. This is where I think there's a structural industry change, not just the community. So with that in mind, how do you guys vector into that in terms of a market entry? What's just thinking around product. Obviously you got a higher, did you guys raise some capital in process? A little bit of a capital raise five, no problem. Todd market, but product wise, you've got to come in, get the beachhead. >>I mean, we're, we're, we're casting a wide net right now and talking to as many customers like we've met a lot of these, these customer potential customers through the communities, you know, that we've been building and we did a supply chain security con helped with that event, this, this Monday to negative one event and solar winds and Citibank were there and talking about their solutions. Um, and so I think, you know, and then we'll narrow it down to like people that would make good partners to work with and figure out how they think they're solving the problem today. And really >>How do you guys feel good? You feel good? Well, we got Jerry Chen coming off from gray lock next round. He would get a term sheet, Jerry, this guy's got some action on it in >>There. Probably didn't reply to him on LinkedIn. >>He's coming out with Kronos for him. He just invested 200 million at CrossFit. So you guys should have a great time. Congratulations on the leap. I know it's comfortable to beat Google, a lot of things to work on. Um, and student startups are super fun too, but not easy. None of the female or, you know, he has done it before, so. Right. Cool. What do you think about today? Did the event here a little bit smaller, more VIP event? What's your takeaway on this? >>It's good to be back in person. Obviously we're meeting, we've been associating with folks over zoom and Google meets for a while now and meeting them in person as I go, Hey, no hard to recognize behind the mask, but yeah, we're just glad to sort of be back out in a little bit of normalization. >>Yeah. How's everything in Austin, everyone everyone's safe and good over there. >>Yeah. It's been a long, long pandemic. Lots of ups and downs, but yeah. >>Got to get the music scene back. Most of these are comes back in the house. Everything's all back to normal. >>Yeah. My hair doesn't normally look like this. I just haven't gotten a haircut since this also >>You're going to do well in this market. You got a term sheet like that. Keep the hair, just to get the money. I think I saw your LinkedIn profile and I was wondering it's like, which version are we going to get? Well, super relevant. Super great topic. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. Sharing the story. You're in the queue. Great jumper. Dave Nicholson here on the cube date, one of three days we're back in person of course, hybrid event. Cause the cube.net for all more footage and highlights and remote interviews. So stay tuned more coverage after this short break.

(bright intro music) >> Welcome to this "Cube Conversation". I'm your host, Lisa Martin. This is part of our third AWS Start-up Showcase. And I'm pleased to welcome two gentlemen from Rockset, Venkat Venkataramani is here, the CEO and co-founder and Dhruba Borthakur, CTO and co-founder. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Excited to learn more about Rockset, Venkat, talk to me about Rockset and how it's putting real-time analytics within the reach of every company. >> If you see the confluent IPO, if you see where the world is going in terms of analytics, I know, we look at this, real-time analytics is like the lost frontier. Everybody wants fast queries on fresh data. Nobody wants to say, "I don't need that. You know, give me slow queries on stale data," right? I think if you see what data warehouses and data lakes have done, especially in the cloud, they've really, really made batch analytics extremely accessible, but real-time analytics still seems too clumsy, too complex, and too expensive for most people. And we are on a mission to make, you know, real-time analytics, make it very, very easy and affordable for everybody to be able to take advantage of that. So that's our, that's what we do. >> But you're right, nobody wants a stale data or slower queries. And it seems like one of the things that we learned, Venkat, sticking with you in the last 18 months of a very strange world that we're living in, is that real-time is no longer a nice to have. It's really a differentiator and table stakes for businesses in every industry. How do you make it more affordable and accessible to businesses in so many different industries? >> I think that's a great question. I think there are, at a very high level, there are two categories of use cases we see. I think there is one full category of use cases where business teams and business units are demanding almost like business observability. You know, if you think about one domain that actually understood real-time and made everything work in real-time is the DevOps world, you know, metrics and monitoring coming out of like, you know, all these machines and because they really want to know as soon as something goes wrong, immediately, I want to, you know, be able to dive in and click and see what happens. But now businesses are demanding the same thing, right? Like a CEO wants to know, "Are we on track to hit our quarterly estimates or not? And tell me now what's happening," because you know, the larger the company, the more complex that have any operations dashboards are. And, you know, if you don't give them real-time visibility, the window of opportunity to do something about it disappears. And so they are really, businesses is really demanding that. And so that is one big use case we have. And the other strange thing we're also seeing is that customers are demanding real-time even from the products they are using. So you could be using a SaaS product for sales automation, support automation, marketing automation. Now I don't want to use a product if it doesn't have real-time analytics baked into the product itself. And so all these software companies, you know, providing a SaaS service to their cloud customers and clients, they are also looking to actually, you know, their proof of value really comes from the analytics that they can show within the product. And if that is not interactive and real-time, then they are also going to be left behind. So it's really a huge differentiator whether you're building a software product or your running a business, the real-time observability gives you a window of opportunity to actually do something about, you know, when something goes wrong, you can actually act on it very, very quickly. >> Right, which is absolutely critical. Dhruba, I want to get your take on this. As the CTO and co-founder as I introduced you, what were some of the gaps in the market back in 2016 that you saw that really necessitated the development of this technology? >> Yeah, for real-time analytics, the difference compared to what it was earlier is that all your things used to be a lot of batch processes. Again, the reason being because there was something called MapReduce, and that was a scanning system that was kind of a invention from Google, which talked about processing big data sets. And it was about scanning, scanning large data sets to give answers. Whereas for real-time analytics, the new trend is that how can you index these big datasets so that you can answer queries really fast? So this is what Rockset does as well, is that we have capabilities to index humongous amounts of data cheaply, efficiently, and economically feasible for our customers. And that's why query is the leverage the index to give fast (indistinct). This is one of the big changes. The other change obviously is that it has moved to the cloud, right? A lot of analytics have moved to the cloud. So Rockset is built natively for the cloud, which is why we can scale up, scale down resources when queries come and we can provide a great (indistinct) for people as data latency, and as far as query latencies comes on, both of these things. So these two trends, I think, are kind of the power behind moving, making people use more real-time analytics. >> Right, and as Venkat was talking about how it's an absolute differentiator for businesses, you know, last year we saw this really, this quick, all these quick pivots to survive and ultimately thrive. And we're seeing the businesses now coming out of this, that we're able to do that, and we're able to pivot to digital, to be successful and to out-compete those who maybe were not as fast. I saw that recently, Venkat, you guys had a new product release a few weeks ago, major product release, that is making real-time analytics on streaming data sources like Apache Kafka, Amazon Kinesis, Amazon DynamoDB, and data lakes a lot more accessible and affordable. Breakdown that launch for me, and how is it doing the accessibility and affordability that you talked about before? >> Extremely good question. So we're really excited about what we call SQL-based roll-ups, is what we call that release. So what does that do? So if you think about real-time analytics and even teeing off the previous question you asked on what is the gap in the market? The gap in the market is really, all that houses and lakes are built for batch. You know, they're really good at letting people accumulate huge volumes of data, and once a week, analyst asking a question, generating a report, and everybody's looking at it. And with real-time, the data never stops coming. The queries never stop coming. So how do you, if I want real-time metrics on all this huge volumes of data coming in, now if I drain it into a huge data lake and then I'm doing analytics on that, it gets very expensive and very complex very quickly. And so the new release that we had is called SQL-based roll-ups, where simply using SQL, you can define any real-time metric that you want to track across any dimensions you care about. It could be geo demographic and other dimensions you care about that and Rockset will automatically maintain all those real-time metrics for you in real-time in a highly accurate fashion. So you never have to doubt whether the metrics are valid and it will be accurate up to the second. And the best part is you don't have to learn a new language. You can actually use SQL to define those metrics and Rockset will automatically maintain that and scale that for you in the cloud. And that, I think, reduces the barrier. So like if somebody wants to build a real-time, you know, track something for their business in real-time, you know, you have to duct tape together multiple, disparate components and systems that were never meant to work with each other. Now you have a real-time database built for the cloud that is fully, you know, supports full feature SQL. So you can do this in a matter of minutes, which would probably take you days or weeks with alternate technologies. >> That's a dramatic X reduction in time there. I want to mention the Snowflake IPO since you guys mentioned the Confluent IPO. You say that Rockset does for real-time, what Snowflake did for batch. Dhruba, I want to get your perspective on that. Tell me about that. What do you mean by that? >> Yeah, so like we see this trend in the market where lot of analytics, which are very batch, they get a lot of value if they've moved more real-time, right? Like Venkat mentioned, when analytics powers, actual products, which need to use analytics into their, to make the product better. So Rockset very much plays in this area. So Rockset is the only solution. I shouldn't say solution. It's a database, it's a real-time database, which powers these kind of analytic systems. If you don't use Rockset, then you might be using maybe a warehouse or something, but you cannot get real-time because there is always a latency of putting data into the warehouse. It could be minutes, it could be hours. And then also you don't get too many people making concurrent queries on the warehouse. So this is another difference for real-time analytics because it powers applications, the query volume could be large. So that's why you need a real-time database and not a real-time warehouse or any other technologies for this. And this trend has really caught up because most people have either, are pretty much into this journey. You asked me this previous question about what has changed since 2016 as well. And this is a journey that most enterprises we see are already embarking upon. >> One thing too, that we're seeing is that more and more applications are becoming data intensive applications, right? We think of whether it's Instagram or DoorDash or whatnot, or even our banking app, we expect to have the information updated immediately. How do you help, Dhruba, sticking with you, how do you help businesses build and power those data intensive applications that the consumers are demanding? >> That's a great question. And we have booked, me and Venkat, we have seen these data applications at large scale when we were at Facebook earlier. We were both parts of the Facebook team. So we saw how real-time was really important for building that kind of a business, that was social media. But now we are taking the same kind of back ends, which can scale to like huge volumes of data to the enterprises as well. Venkat, do you have anything to add? >> Yeah, I think when you're trying to go from batch to real-time, you're 100% spot on that, a static report, a static dashboard actually becomes an application, becomes a data application, and it has to be interactive. So you're not just showing a newspaper where you just get to read. You want to click and deep dive, do slice and dice the data to not only understand what happened, but why it happened and come up with hypotheses to figure out what I want to do with it. So the interactivity is important and the real-timeliness now it becomes important. So the way we think about it is like, once you go into real-time analytics, you know, the data never stops coming. That's obvious. Data freshness is important. But the queries never stop coming also because one, when your dashboards and metrics are getting up to date real-time, you really want alerts and anomaly detection to be automatically built in. And so you don't even have to look at the graphs once a week. When something is off, the system will come and tap on your shoulder and say, "Hey, something is going on." And so that really is a real-time application at that point, because it's constantly looking at the data and querying on your behalf and only alerting you when something, actually, is interesting happening that you might need to look at. So yeah, the whole movement towards data applications and data intensive apps is a huge use case for us. I think most of our customers, I would say, are building a data application in one shape or form or another. >> And if I think of use cases like cutthroat customer 360, you know, as customers and consumers of whatever product or solution we're talking about, we expect that these brands know who we are, know what we've done with them, what we've bought, what to show me next is what I expect whether again, it's my bank or it's Instagram or something else. So that personalization approach is absolutely critical, and I imagine another big game changer, differentiator for the customers that use Rockset. What do you guys think about that? >> Absolutely, personalized recommendation is a huge use case. We see this all where we have, you know, Ritual is one of the customers. We have a case study on that, I think. They want to personalize. They generate offline recommendations for anything that the user is buying, but they want to use behavioral data from the product to personalize that experience and combine the two before they serve anything on the checkout lane, right? We also see in B2B companies, real-time analytics and data applications becoming a very important thing. And we have another customer, Command Alkon, who, you know, they have a supply chain platform for heavy construction and 80% of concrete in North America flows through their platform, for example. And what they want to know in real-time is reporting on how many concrete trucks are arriving at a big construction site, which ones are late and whatnot. And the real-time, you know, analytics needs to be accurate and needs to be, you know, up to the second, you know, don't tell me what trucks were, you know, coming like an hour ago. No, I need this right now. And so even in a B2B platform, we see that very similar trend trend where real-time reporting, real-time search, real-time indexing is actually a very, very important piece to the puzzle. And not just for B to C examples that you said, and the Instagram comment is also very appropriate because a hedge fund customer came to us and said, "I have kind of a dashboards built on top of like Snowflake. They're taking two to five seconds and I have certain parts of my dashboards, but I am actually having 50/60 visualizations. You do the math, it takes many minutes to load. And so they said, "Hey, you have some indexing deck. Can you make this faster?" Three weeks later, the queries that would take two to five seconds on a traditional warehouse or a cloud data warehouse came back in 18 milliseconds with Rockset. And so it is so fast that they said, you know, "If my internal dashboards are not as fast as Instagram, no one in my company uses it." These are their words. And so they are really, you know, the speed is really, really important. The scale is really, really important. Data freshness is important. If you combine all of these things and also make it simple for people to access with SQL-based, that's really the real unique value prop that we have a Rockset, which is what our customers love. >> You brought up something interesting, Venkat, that kind of made me think of the employee experience. You know, we always think of the customer 360. The customer experience with the employee experience, in my opinion, is inextricably linked. The employees have to have access to what they need to deliver and help these great customer relationships. And as you were saying, you know, the employees are expecting databases to be as fast as they see on Instagram, when they're, you know, surfing on their free time. Then adoption, I imagine, gets better, obviously, than the benefit from the end user and customers' perspective is that speed. Talk to me a little bit about how Rockset, and I would like to get both of your opinions here, is a facilitator of that employee productivity for your customers. >> This is a great question. In fact, the same hedge fund, you know, customer, I pushed them to go and measure how many times do people even look at all the data that you produce? (laughs) How many analysts and investors actually use your dashboards and ask them to go investigate at that. And one of the things that they eventually showed me was there was a huge uptake and their dashboards went from two to three second kind of like, you know, lags to 18 milliseconds. They almost got the daily active user for their own internal dashboards to be almost going from five people to the entire company, you know, so I think you're absolutely spot on. So it really goes back to, you know, really leveraging the data and actually doing something about it. Like, you know, if I ask a question and it's going to, you know, system is going to take 20 minutes to answer that, you know, I will probably not ask as many questions as I want to. When it becomes interactive and very, very fast, and all of a sudden, I not only start with a question and, you know, I can ask a follow-up question and then another follow-up question and make it really drive that to, you know, a conclusion and I can actually act upon it. And this really accelerates. So even if you kind of like, look at the macro, you hear these phrases, the world is going from batch to real-time, and in my opinion, when I look at this, people want to, you know, accelerate their growth. People want to make faster decisions. People want to get to, what can I do about this and get actionable insights. And that is not really going to come from systems that take 20 minutes to give a response. It's going to really come from systems that are interactive and real-time, and that's really the need for acceleration is what's really driving this movement from batch to real-time. And we're very happy to facilitate that and accelerate that moment. >> And it really drives the opportunity for your customers to monetize more and more data so that they can actually act on it, as you said, in real-time and do something about it, whether it's a positive experience or it is, you know, remediating a challenge. Last question guys, since we're almost out of time here, but I want to understand, talk to me about the Rockset-AWS partnership and what the value is for your customers. >> Okay, yeah. I'll get to that in a second, but I wanted to add something to your previous question. I think my opinion for all the customers that we see is that real-time analytics is addictive. Once they get used to it, they can go back to the old stuff. So this is what we have found with all our customers. So, yeah, for the AWS question, I think maybe Venkat can answer that better than me. >> Yeah, I mean, we love partnering with AWS. I think, they are the world's leader when it comes to public clouds. We have a lot of joint happy customers that are all AWS customers. Rockset is entirely built on top of AWS, and we love that. And there is a lot of integrations that Rockset natively comes with. So if you're already managing your data in AWS, you know, there are no data transfer costs or anything like that involved for you to also, you know, index that data in Rockset and actually build real-time applications and stream the data to Rockset. So I think the partnership goes in very, very deep in terms of like, we are an AWS customer, we are a partner and we, you know, our go-to market teams work with them. And so, yeah, we're very, very happy, you know, like, AWS fanboys here, yeah. >> Excellent, it sounds like a very great synergistic collaborative relationship, and I love, Dhruba, what you said. This is like, this is a great quote. "Real-time analytics is addictive." That sounds to me like a good addiction (all subtly laugh) for businesses and every industry to take out. Guys, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for joining me, talking to the audience about Rockset, what differentiates you, and how you're helping customers really improve their customer productivity, their employee productivity, and beyond. We appreciate your time. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Thank you, thanks a lot. >> For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this "Cube Conversation". (bright ending music)

>>Welcome to the cubes coverage of Dell technologies, world 2020. The digital experience. I am Lisa Martin and I got two returning guests from Dell technologies during any back on the cube today, we've got Doug Schmidt, president of Dell technology services. Doug, welcome back to the virtual cube. >>Well, thank you. Thank you for having, uh, Alex and I back again, >>And Alex is here, Alex. Beretto SPP at the planning and technology for Dell technologies. Alex, welcome, >>Happy to be here. >>So there's a lot has happened since we last got to sit together about 18 months ago and Dell technologies world 2019, I think back right, the big bag, um, pre pandemic, but we could actually be not socially sense. Talk to us, talk about what's going on with Dell technology services. You gave us a great update then what's going on now and now you guys have 60,000 services and it folks you're working delivering services in 170 countries. Give us an update. >>Well, yeah, so look, it's really about, uh, Dell technology services, enabling our customers to effectively adopt and leverage and sustain their it investment bottom line, helping our customers get the most out of what they're looking for out of their it solutions and making sure we deliver that for them. And as you stated, the size of the organization, I had the privilege of leading that team of 60,000 direct and partners in 170 countries. We provide that service and over 55 languages and really we cover services from the edge to the core. So everything in between, and it's an end to end service, meaning we can help with consulting a deployment managed services, education services, right down to the support side of it. And that really gives us a lot of flexibility to help our customers deliver what they need. And it's really about helping them navigate the digital journey, right? Uh, it really is helping them pivot to the new business model we're seeing out there. Uh, especially today, considering as we said, last time we were sitting down together. Now we're doing this virtually, everyone's going through this transformation in addition to moving more to the edge and hybrid cloud. So it's, it's a, it's as important as ever for services to be there for our customers. That's what we're doing every single day. >>And we'll unpack a bit more. Some of the things that you've been doing since 2020 has started and made all these changes, but Alex, let's go to you for a little bit services, strategy services, technology what's going on there >>Really do you think about our physical footprint, quite a few countries as you pointed out. And if you look, we have everything from consumer all the way to the large enterprise. So we're fully perspective. And then if you look from our digital beach, we have massive digital reach, which is really quite unmatched. And actually that's where the technology piece really comes to shine. You think about it. We have 200 million assets in the field today. Those assets are generating 22 terabytes of data per day. That's a massive set of AI engines to generate customer insight. Last year alone, we were able to predict 3.7 million issues before they occurred and then take proactive action on those issues. And that's just one example, but we're really messy in our software engineering capabilities. Building tools enable our customers to drive their own actual digital transformation to do we do this across the entire services life cycle. So everything from consulting to deployment to support, to manage services. >>Excellent. Thanks for that, Alex. So Doug now let's kind of dig into, what's been going on in the year of 2020, the year of what's next lot of changes and big challenges for customers in every industry, you know, seven months ago, trying to figure out how do we survive in this mode, the massive shift to work from home to remote devices everywhere. Talk to us about how Dell technologies has responded and helped your customers to survive and get to that thrive state in this crazy time. >>Yeah, well, no, you're right. And it was a, it was something that happened very, very quickly obviously to all of us globally. Um, and these events in 2020, it really brought us even closer to our customers. We've always listened very closely, made sure we were in tune with that. Uh, obviously when all of this shit, uh, we were there for them, um, and we had to rapidly challenge and change, uh, how we delivered our service in this dynamic environment. We were able to do that. We have an incredible team that obviously went to imagine that with 60,000 folks, uh, changing our service offerings, so where we may have gone, uh, on site or customer, we then set up a Depot, uh, so that we were able to do that safely. We were able to get our PPE equipment out to the field service agents that needed to be in a data center and make sure we were following all the protocols. >>Uh, we leverage our five integrated global command centers. These are strategic hubs. We have around the world to really monitor and help, uh, and track all of this. So we were able to do that. That was, that had been digitized years before. So we were able to, to do all that safely, uh, really this was about going in then and helping our customers mitigate the impacts that they may have had helped them through that, whether it was through deployments, being virtual, getting them the systems that they needed and just helping them through their critical, uh, environment and changes. >>What are some of the things that you're hearing from customers? Because, you know, we talked about this massive pivot for everyone and the breadth of services that you cover from consulting to managed services to education. What were some of the things that were really, um, the highest need that you saw from customers, especially when this first happened? >>Well, when it first happened, it was clearly the working remote, right. And helping everybody do that and doing it virtually making sure that, uh, like I talked about, uh, making sure they have the systems, making sure connections for okay. If the centers were able to handle all of that and doing all that in a fashion, in a safe way for our team members and our customers team members that was first and foremost priority was the safety of everyone. Uh, once we had gotten through that, I'm going to say, you know, look no gauge exact. Uh, but I would say starting beginning of summer, you know, maybe may what we started seeing then is the people really actually pivoting even more into their transformation. So they weren't doing their digital transformations. Our customers were, and they were really looking for strategic guidance and on their planning. >>And so we set up where our consultants were delivering a half day accelerator workshops virtually to help them solve their it challenges that they may have had. We also, uh, help them understand what we add in, in the space of unified workspace as a complete solution that helps them deploy, support, manage all of their end user devices so that they can achieve full productivity in this new environment. And they were asking for it to be simple, how do we simplify a lot of this and how do they simplify that via our managed services capabilities? And so we were working through that again, setting up these virtual workshops and having them understand what those capabilities were and how we could help them through that. And then look, they were also as, you know, um, financing, financing options. How can we do this as a service, all these different methods that we were helping with as well. It was, it was really a great, uh, in the sense of us stepping up to help our customers. And we were there for him. >>And we talked about the digital transformation guys last year at Dell technologies world, that Dell technologies was undergoing. Let's talk to us about what is going on with that digital transformation that Dell has undergone and how technology services or other services technology is helping to play a role in that, especially in the last six, seven months. >>Yeah, it's amazing. We actually do this every day for our customers, but as you pointed out, we're actually undergoing fast with everything that's happening with our customers. Some of the insights that we learn in house, if you look at services, we invested quite heavily on software engineering, the number of software engineers that we have now with inside the services, visit units at an all time high. If you look at the number of data, scientists and PhDs that we have brought in, again, all time high, it really focused on developing our AI engines that we use both internally and externally driving digital transformation. A couple of examples of that. If you look at something called PCI, which is an proactive, uh, the proactive case intelligence, it actually looks at, uh, the entire services journey that our customer has. And we're able to detect and put information in front of agents at the right time, the right information then actually enables them to deliver a better customer experience. >>We've actually seen through the implementation of PCI, a 10% reduction to the time that we spent engaging with customers in at the same time and improvement in seaside, the tune of approximately 130 basis points. So we're on a productivity improvement, which helps us internally as well as obviously benefit for the customers. Another thing we're doing is actually digitizing our entire services processes. That means everything from consulting to the point of support. So we have a digital variant of what processes should look like. And then real time we're able to actually measure our active processes versus what they should be. And when we detect anomalies, we're able to correct those real time. That again gives us efficiencies internally, but more importantly enables us to deliver a better customer experience. >>And that customer experience is critical, not just for Dell technologies to deliver to its customers, but for your customers to deliver to their customers. You talked about improving the customer experience and some of the impact there, Alex, you think about in the last, in the year of 2020, how we suddenly went from this expectation that we can order anything on Amazon. And it shows up tomorrow to having things be delayed, that we were not anticipating. Talk to me about the transformation you guys are on. We, and we've heard a lot of, um, Dell folks talk about the acceleration in the digital transformation that your customers are undergoing. But if you, if you could walk us through from a strategic vision perspective, you've got the digitization going of the services. We know that a good amount of remote workforce will stay that way for quite some time, but give us a vision into the year 2021. >>Yeah, let's, let's talk about the future because T to your point, look, we have AI today and we plan to continue log any besting AI. We're going to continue to develop new software applications that have our customers to drive that transformation. But if you look forward to exciting areas, so let me, let me name three specifically. There are very interesting. The first is as a service, we actually taken our complete services portfolio and positioning all of it to be available as a service. That's what customers are looking for a very simple way to consume by in consumer service services. And we're doing that transformation and taking everything in transitioning to be available as a service second five G we're fully embracing that so that we can have and deliver cloud services, our solutions in a very simple and easy way and gets denied. >>And Doug wrap us up here with the vision overall from Dell technology services, the demand coming in from customers globally, all of the changing demands and this uncertainty in which we're living in, what does the future of the next year or so look like from Dell technologies services level? >>Well, yeah, as you, as we've talked about like the demand for exceptional customer and employee experiences through all of this is really driving these business model disruptions across the board. And look, we understand customers, uh, need to thrive during all this, and it's rapidly evolving and changing. So we're building our portfolio, uh, quickly to stay ahead of that. Uh, you know, being able to listen to customers and build those services out. So we're doing that as we mentioned earlier, uh, both Alex and I we've talked about the disruption. We're seeing with five G the edge cloud as a service, and this is driving a massive change in the industry, right? And therefore you have, uh, having all the services to help our customers manage through that. And it's really about this convergence, we're seeing capabilities that we provide the lines between, like I call these traditional silos inside support, uh, consulting, managed services, all of that, to being blurred, our customers are really looking for an outcome. >>They're looking for flexibility and some things to be simple. We're helping them achieve that. And like I talked about earlier, our customers want outcomes and they really want to select Dell, uh, for the comprehensive portfolio that we have. That could be everything from PC as a service storage, as a service right into hybrid cloud. So, you know, moving forward, uh, we work very closely, obviously integrated with our product teams, uh, hand in hand. We see that blurring as well. The product is a service. The service is a product. We think Dell technologies is in the ideal position to pull all this together. And we have a clear vision with a world class team are really to help our customers through their transformation, deliver the outcomes. >>Doug, Alex, thank you so much. It's nice to see you again, albeit virtually maybe someday soon, we'll get to be sitting down on a cube desk together again. I hope look forward to it. Thank you. Thank you for and Alex burrito. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of Dell technologies world. The virtual edition. Thanks for watching.

(radio calls) >> Announcer: From around the globe, its theCUBE covering Space & Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal poly. Hello, welcome back to theCUBE virtual coverage with Cal Poly for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium, a day four and the wrap up session, keynote session with the Lieutenant Governor of California, Eleni Kounalakis. She's here to deliver her keynote speech on the topic of California's role in supporting America's Cybersecurity future. Eleni, take it away. >> Thank you, John, for the introduction. I am Lieutenant Governor Eleni Kounalakis. It is an honor to be part of Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. As I speak kind of Pierre with the governor's office of business and economic development is available on the chat, too ready to answer any questions you might have. California and indeed the world are facing significant challenges right now. Every day we are faced with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and the economic downturn that is ensued. We have flattened the curve in California and are moving in the right direction but it is clear that we're not out of the woods yet. It is also impossible right now to escape the reality of climate change from the fire sparked by exceptionally rare, dry lightening events to extreme heat waves threatening public health and putting a strain on our electricity grid. We see that climate change is here now. And of course we've been recently confronted with a series of brutal examples of institutionalized racism that have created an awakening among people of all walks of life and compelled us into the streets to march and protest. In the context of all this, we cannot forget that we continue to be faced with other less visible but still very serious challenges. Cybersecurity threats are one of these. We have seen cities, companies and individuals paralyzed by attacks costing time and money and creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and insecurity. Our state agencies, local governments, police departments, utilities, news outlets and private companies from all industries are target. The threats around cybersecurity are serious but not unlike all the challenges we face in California. We have the tools and fortitude to address them. That is why this symposium is so important. Thank you, Cal Poly and all the participants for being here and for the important contributions you bring to this conference. I'd like to also say a few words about California's role in America's future in space. California has been at the forefront of the aerospace industry for more than a century through all the major innovations in aerospace from wooden aircraft, to World War II Bombers, to rockets and Mars rovers. California has played a pivotal role. Today, California is the number one state in total defense spending, defense contract spending and total number of personnel. It is estimated the Aerospace and Defense Industry, provides $168 billion in economic impact to our state. And America's best trained and most experienced aerospace and technology workforce lives here in California. The fact that the aerospace and defense sector, has had a strong history in California is no accident. California has always had strong innovation ecosystem and robust infrastructure that puts many sectors in a position to thrive. Of course, a big part of that infrastructure is a skilled workforce. And at the foundation of a skilled workforce is education. California has the strongest system of public higher education in the world. We're home to 10 university of California campuses, 23 California State university campuses and 116 California Community Colleges. All told nearly 3 million students are enrolled in public higher education. We also have world renowned private universities including the California Institute of Technology and Stanford University numbers one and three in the country for aerospace engineering. California also has four national laboratories and several NASA facilities. California possesses a strong spirit of innovation, risk taking and entrepreneurship. Half of all venture capital funding in the United States, goes to companies here in California. Lastly, but certainly no less critical to our success, California is a diverse state. 27% of all Californians are foreign born, 27% more than one in four of our population of 40 million people are immigrants from another country, Europe central and South America, India, Asia, everywhere. Our rich cultural diversity is our strength and helps drive our economy. As I look to the future of industries like cybersecurity and the growing commercial space industry, I know our state will need to work with those industries to make sure we continue to train our workforce for the demands of an evolving industry. The office of the lieutenant governor has a unique perspective on higher education and workforce development. I'm on the UC Board of Regents, the CSU Board of Trustees. And as of about two weeks ago, the Community Colleges Board of Governors. The office of the lieutenant governor is now the only office that is a member of every governing board, overseeing our public higher education system. Earlier in the symposium, we heard a rich discussion with Undersecretary Stewart Knox from the California Labor and Workforce Development Agency about what the state is doing to meet the needs of space and cybersecurity industries. As he mentioned, there are over 37,000 job vacancies in cybersecurity in our state. We need to address that gap. To do so, I see an important role for public private partnerships. We need input from industry and curriculum development. Some companies like Lockheed Martin, have very productive partnerships with universities and community colleges that train students with skills they need to enter aerospace and cyber industries. That type of collaboration will be key. We also need help from the industry to make sure students know that fields like cybersecurity even exist. People's early career interests are so often shaped by the jobs that members of their family have or what they see in popular culture. With such a young and evolving field like cybersecurity, many students are unaware of the job opportunities. I know for my visits to university campuses that students are hungry for STEM career paths where they see opportunities for good paying jobs. When I spoke with students at UC Merced, many of them were first generation college students who went through community college system before enrolling in a UC and they gravitated to STEM majors. With so many job opportunities available to STEM students, cybersecurity ought to be one that they are aware of and consider. Since this symposium is being hosted by Cal Poly, I wanted to highlight the tremendous work they're doing as leaders in the space and cybersecurity industry. Cal Poly California Cybersecurity Institute, does incredible work bringing together academia, industry and government training the next generation of cyber experts and researching emerging cybersecurity issues. As we heard from the President of Cal Poly, Jeff Armstrong the university is in the perfect location to contribute to a thriving space industry. It's close to Vandenberg Air Force Base and UC Santa Barbara and could be home to the future permanent headquarters of US Space Command. The state is also committed to supporting this space industry in the Central Coast. In July, the State of California, Cal poly US-based force and the others signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a commercial space port at Vandenberg Air Force Base and to develop a master plan to grow the commercial space industry in the region. Governor Newsom has made a commitment to lift up all regions of the state. And this strategy will position the Central Coast to be a global leader in the future of the space industry. I'd like to leave you with a few final thoughts, with everything we're facing. Fires, climate change, pandemic. It is easy to feel overwhelmed but I remain optimistic because I know that the people of the State of California are resilient, persistent, and determined to address our challenges and show a path toward a better future for ourselves and our families. The growth of the space industry and the economic development potential of projects like the Spaceport at Vandenberg Air Force Base, our great example of what we can look forward to. The potential for the commercial space industry to become a $3 trillion industry by mid century, as many experts predict is another. There are so many opportunities, new companies are going to emerge doing things we never could have dreamed of today. As Lieutenant General John Thompson said in the first session, the next few years of space and cyber innovation are not going to be a pony ride at the state fair, they're going to be a rodeo. We should all saddle up. Thank you. >> Okay, thank you very much, Eleni. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your participation and all your support to you and your staff. You guys doing a lot of work, a lot going on in California but cybersecurity and space as it comes together, California's playing a pivotal role in leading the world and the community. Thank you very much for your time. >> Okay, this session is going to continue with Bill Britton. Who's the vice president of technology and CIO at Cal Poly but more importantly, he's the director of the cyber institute located at Cal Poly. It's a global organization looking at the intersection of space and cybersecurity. Bill, let's wrap this up. Eleni had a great talk, talking about the future of cybersecurity in America and its future. The role California is playing, Cal Poly is right in the Central Coast. You're in the epicenter of it. We've had a great lineup here. Thanks for coming on. Let's put a capstone on this event. >> Thank you, John. But most importantly, thanks for being a great partner helping us get this to move forward and really changing the dynamic of this conversation. What an amazing time we're at, we had quite an unusual group but it's really kind of the focus and we've moved a lot of space around ourselves. And we've gone from Lieutenant General Thompson and the discussion of the opposition and space force and what things are going on in the future, the importance of cyber in space. And then we went on and moved on to the operations. And we had a private company who builds, we had the DOD, Department Of Defense and their context and NASA and theirs. And then we talked about public private partnerships from President Armstrong, Mr. Bhangu Mahad from the DOD and Mr. Steve Jacques from the National Security Space Association. It's been an amazing conference for one thing, I've heard repeatedly over and over and over, the reference to digital, the reference to cloud, the reference to the need for cybersecurity to be involved and really how important that is to start earlier than just at the employment level. To really go down into the system, the K through 12 and start there. And what an amazing time to be able to start there because we're returning to space in a larger capacity and it's now all around us. And the lieutenant governor really highlighted for us that California is intimately involved and we have to find a way to get our students involved at that same level. >> I want to ask you about this inflection point that was a big theme of this conference and symposium. It was throughout the interviews and throughout the conversations, both on the chat and also kind of on Twitter as well in the social web. Is that this new generation, it wasn't just space and government DOD, all the normal stuff you see, you saw JPL, the Hewlett Foundation, the Defense Innovation Unit, Amazon Web Services, NASA. Then you saw entrepreneurs come in, who were doing some stuff. And so you had this confluence of community. Of course, Cal Poly had participated in space. You guys does some great job, but it's not just the physical face-to-face show up, gets to hear some academic papers. This was a virtual event. We had over 300 organizations attend, different organizations around the world. Being a virtual event you had more range to get more people. This isn't digital. This symposium isn't about Central California anymore. It's global. >> No, it really has gone. >> What really happened to that? >> It's really kind of interesting because at first all of this was word of mouth for this symposium to take place. And it just started growing and growing and the more that we talk to organizations for support, the more we found how interconnected they were on an international scale. So much so that we've decided to take our cyber competition next year and take it globally as well. So if in fact as Major General Shaw said, this is about a multinational support force. Maybe it's time our students started interacting on that level to start with and not have to grow into it as they get older, but do it now and around space and around cybersecurity and around that digital environment and really kind of reduce the digital dividing space. >> Yeah, General Thompson mentioned this, 80 countries with programs. This is like the Olympics for space and we want to have these competitions. So I got great vision and I love that vision, but I know you have the number... Not number, the scores and from the competition this year that happened earlier in the week. Could you share the results of that challenge? >> Yeah, absolutely. We had 83 teams participate this year in the California Cyber Innovation Challenge. And again, it was based around a spacecraft scenario where a spacecraft, a commercial spacecraft was hacked and returned to earth. And the students had to do the forensics on the payload. And then they had to do downstream network analysis, using things like Wireshark and autopsy and other systems. It was a really tough competition. The students had to work hard and we had middle school and high school students participate. We had an intermediate league, new schools who had never done it before or even some who didn't even have STEM programs but were just signing up to really get involved in the experience. And we had our ultimate division which was those who had competed in several times before. And the winner of that competition was North Hollywood. They've been the winning team for four years in a row. Now it's a phenomenal program, they have their hats off to them for competing and winning again. Now what's really cool is not only did they have to show their technical prowess in the game but they also have to then brief and out-brief what they've learned to a panel of judges. And these are not pushovers. These are experts in the field of cybersecurity in space. We even had a couple of goons participating from DefCon and the teams present their findings. So not only are we talking technical, we're talking about presentation skills. The ability to speak and understand. And let me tell you, after reading all of their texts to each other over the weekend adds a whole new language they're using to interact with each other. It's amazing. And they are so more advanced and ready to understand space problems and virtual problems than we are. We have to challenge them even more. >> Well, it sounds like North Hollywood got the franchise. It's likethe Patriots, the Lakers, they've got a dynasty developing down there in North Hollywood. >> Well, what happens when there's a dynasty you have to look for other talent. So next year we're going global and we're going to have multiple states involved in the challenge and we're going to go international. So if North Hollywood pulls it off again next year, it's going to be because they've met the best in the world than defeated >> Okay, the gauntlet has been thrown down, got to take down North Hollywood from winning again next year. We'll be following that. Bill, great to get those results on the cyber challenge we'll keep track and we'll put a plug for it on our site. So we got to get some press on that. My question to you is now as we're going digital, other theme was that they want to hire digital natives into the space force. Okay, the DOD is looking at new skills. This was a big theme throughout the conference not just the commercial partnerships with government which I believe they had kind of put more research and personally, that's my personal opinion. They should be putting in way more research into academic and these environments to get more creative. But the skill sets was a big theme. What's your thoughts on how you saw some of the highlight moments there around skill sets? >> John, it's really interesting 'cause what we've noticed is in the past, everybody thinks skill sets for the engineering students. And it's way beyond that. It's all the students, it's all of them understanding what we call cyber cognizance. Understanding how cybersecurity works whatever career field they choose to be in. Space, there is no facet of supporting space that doesn't need that cyber cognizance. If you're in the back room doing the operations, you're doing the billing, you're doing the contracting. Those are still avenues by which cybersecurity attacks can be successful and disrupt your space mission. The fact that it's international, the connectivities, all of those things means that everyone in that system digitally has to be aware of what's going on around them. That's a whole new thought process. It's a whole new way of addressing a problem and dealing with space. And again it's virtual to everyone. >> That's awesome. Bill, great to have you on. Thank you for including theCUBE virtual, our CUBE event software platform that we're rolling out. We've been using it for the event and thank you for your partnership in this co-creation opening up your community, your symposium to the world, and we're so glad to be part of it. I want to thank you and Dustin and the team and the President of Cal Poly for including us. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, John. It's been an amazing partnership. We look forward to it in the future. >> Okay, that's it. That concludes the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, your host with Cal Poly, who put on an amazing virtual presentation, brought all the guests together. And again, shout out to Bill Britton and Dustin DeBrum who did a great job as well as the President of Cal poly who endorsed and let them do it all. Great event. See you soon. (flash light sound)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Oven. Welcome back to the Space and Cyber Security Symposium. 2020 I'm John for your host with the Cuban silicon angle, along with Cal Poly, representing a great session here on industry success in developing space and cybersecurity. Resource is Got a great lineup. Brigadier General Steve Hotel, whose are also known as Bucky, is Call Sign director of Space Portfolio Defense Innovation Unit. Preston Miller, chief information security officer at JPL, NASA and Major General retired Clint Crozier, director of aerospace and satellite solutions at Amazon Web services, also known as a W s. Gentlemen, thank you for for joining me today. So the purpose of this session is to spend the next hour talking about the future of workforce talent. Um, skills needed and we're gonna dig into it. And Spaces is an exciting intersection of so many awesome disciplines. It's not just get a degree, go into a track ladder up and get promoted. Do those things. It's much different now. Love to get your perspectives, each of you will have an opening statement and we will start with the Brigadier General Steve Hotel. Right? >>Thank you very much. The Defense Innovation Unit was created in 2015 by then Secretary of Defense Ash Carter. To accomplish three things. One is to accelerate the adoption of commercial technology into the Department of Defense so that we can transform and keep our most relevant capabilities relevant. And also to build what we call now called the national Security Innovation Base, which is inclusive all the traditional defense companies, plus the commercial companies that may not necessarily work with focus exclusively on defense but could contribute to our national security and interesting ways. Um, this is such an exciting time Azul here from our other speakers about space on and I can't, uh I'm really excited to be here today to be able to share a little bit of our insight on the subject. >>Thank you very much. Precedent. Miller, Chief information security officer, Jet Propulsion Lab, NASA, Your opening statement. >>Hey, thank you for having me. I would like to start off by providing just a little bit of context of what brings us. Brings us together to talk about this exciting topic for space workforce. Had we've seen In recent years there's been there's been a trend towards expanding our space exploration and the space systems that offer the great things that we see in today's world like GPS. Um, but a lot of that has come with some Asian infrastructure and technology, and what we're seeing as we go towards our next generation expects of inspiration is that we now want to ensure that were secured on all levels. And there's an acknowledgement that our space systems are just a susceptible to cyber attacks as our terrestrial assistance. We've seen a recent space, uh, policy Directive five come out from our administration, that that details exactly how we should be looking at the cyber principle for our space systems, and we want to prevent. We want to prevent a few things as a result of that of these principles. Spoofing and jamming of our space systems are not authorized commands being sent to those space systems, lots of positive control of our space vehicles on lots of mission data. We also acknowledge that there's a couple of frameworks we wanna adopt across the board of our space systems levers and things like our nice miss cybersecurity frameworks. eso what has been a challenge in the past adopted somebody Cyber principles in space systems, where there simply has been a skill gap in a knowledge gap. We hire our space engineers to do a few things. Very well designed space systems, the ploy space systems and engineer space systems, often cybersecurity is seen as a after thought and certainly hasn't been a line item and in any budget for our spaces in racing. Uh, in the past in recent years, the dynamic started to change. We're now now integrating cyber principles at the onset of development of these life cycle of space. Systems were also taking a hard look of how we train the next generation of engineers to be both adequate. Space engineers, space system engineers and a cyber engineers, as a result to Mrs success on DWI, also are taking a hard look at What do we mean when we talk about holistic risk management for our space assistance, Traditionally risk management and missing insurance for space systems? I've really revolved around quality control, but now, in recent years we've started to adopt principles that takes cyber risk into account, So this is a really exciting topic for me. It's something that I'm fortunate to work with and live with every day. I'm really excited to get into this discussion with my other panel members. Thank you. >>You Preston. Great insight there. Looking forward. Thio chatting further. Um, Clint Closure with a W. S now heading up. A director of aerospace and satellite Solutions, formerly Major General, Your opening statement. >>Thanks, John. I really appreciate that introduction and really appreciate the opportunity to be here in the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. And thanks to Cal Poly for putting it together, you know, I can't help, but as I think to Cal Poly there on the central California coast, San Luis Obispo, California I can't help but to think back in this park quickly. I spent two years of my life as a launch squadron commander at Vandenberg Air Force Base, about an hour south of Cal Poly launching rockets, putting satellites in orbit for the national intelligence community and so some really fond memories of the Central California coast. I couldn't agree more with the theme of our symposium this week. The space and cyber security we've all come to know over the last decade. How critical spaces to the world, whether it's for national security intelligence, whether it's whether communications, maritime, agriculture, development or a whole host of other things, economic and financial transactions. But I would make the case that I think most of your listeners would agree we won't have space without cybersecurity. In other words, if we can't guaranteed cybersecurity, all those benefits that we get from space may not be there. Preston in a moment ago that all the threats that have come across in the terrestrial world, whether it be hacking or malware or ransomware or are simple network attacks, we're seeing all those migrate to space to. And so it's a really important issue that we have to pay attention to. I also want to applaud Cow Pauling. They've got some really important initiatives. The conference here, in our particular panel, is about developing the next generation of space and cyber workers, and and Cal Poly has two important programs. One is the digital transformation hub, and the other is space data solutions, both of which, I'm happy to say, are in partnership with a W. S. But these were important programs where Cal Poly looks to try to develop the next generation of space and cyber leaders. And I would encourage you if you're interested in that toe. Look up the program because that could be very valuable is well, I'm relatively new to the AWS team and I'm really happy Thio team, as John you said recently retired from the U. S. Air Force and standing up the U. S. Space force. But the reason that I mentioned that as the director of the aerospace and satellite team is again it's in perfect harmony with the theme today. You know, we've recognized that space is critically important and that cyber security is critically important and that's been a W s vision as well. In fact, a W s understands how important the space domain is and coupled with the fact that AWS is well known that at a W s security is job zero and stolen a couple of those to fax A. W. S was looking to put together a team the aerospace and satellite team that focus solely and exclusively every single day on technical innovation in space and more security for the space domain through the cloud and our offerings there. So we're really excited to reimagine agree, envision what space networks and architectures could look like when they're born on the cloud. So that's important. You know, talk about workforce here in just a moment, but but I'll give you just a quick sneak. We at AWS have also recognized the gap in the projected workforce, as Preston mentioned, Um, depending on the projection that you look at, you know, most projections tell us that the demand for highly trained cyber cyber security cloud practitioners in the future outweighs what we think is going to be the supply. And so a ws has leaned into that in a number of ways that we're gonna talk about the next segment. I know. But with our workforce transformation, where we've tried to train free of charge not just a W s workers but more importantly, our customers workers. It s a W s we obsessed over the customer. And so we've provided free training toe over 7000 people this year alone toe bring their cloud security and cyber security skills up to where they will be able to fully leverage into the new workforce. So we're really happy about that too? I'm glad Preston raised SPD five space policy Directive five. I think it's gonna have a fundamental impact on the space and cyber industry. Uh, now full disclosure with that said, You know, I'm kind of a big fan of space policy directives, ESPN, Or was the space policy directive that directed to stand up of the U. S. Space Force and I spent the last 18 months of my life as the lead planner and architect for standing up the U. S. Space force. But with that said, I think when we look back a decade from now, we're going to see that s p d five will have as much of an impact in a positive way as I think SPD for on the stand up of the space Force have already done so. So I'll leave it there, but really look forward to the dialogue and discussion. >>Thank you, gentlemen. Clint, I just wanna say thank you for all your hard work and the team and the people who were involved in standing up Space force. Um, it is totally new. It's a game changer. It's modern, is needed. And there's benefits on potential challenges and opportunities that are gonna be there, so thank you very much for doing that. I personally am excited. I know a lot of people are excited for what the space force is today and what it could become. Thank you very much. >>Yeah, Thanks. >>Okay, So >>with >>that, let me give just jump in because, you know, as you're talking about space force and cybersecurity and you spend your time at Vanderburgh launching stuff into space, that's very technical. Is operation okay? I mean, it's complex in and of itself, but if you think about like, what's going on beyond in space is a lot of commercial aspect. So I'm thinking, you know, launching stuff into space on one side of my brain and the other side of brain, I'm thinking like air travel. You know, all the logistics and the rules of the road and air traffic control and all the communications and all the technology and policy and, you >>know, landing. >>So, Major General Clint, what's your take on this? Because this is not easy. It's not just one thing that speaks to the diversity of workforce needs. What's your reaction to that? >>Yeah. I mean, your observation is right on. We're seeing a real boom in the space and aerospace industry. For all the good reasons we talked about, we're recognizing all the value space from again economic prosperity to exploration to being ableto, you know, improve agriculture and in weather and all those sorts of things that we understand from space. So what I'm really excited about is we're seeing this this blossom of space companies that we sort of referred to his new space. You know, it used to be that really only large governments like the United States and a handful of others could operate in the space domain today and largely infused because of the technological innovation that have come with Cyber and Cyrus Space and even the cloud we're seeing more and more companies, capabilities, countries, all that have the ability, you know. Even a well funded university today can put a cube sat in orbit, and Cal Poly is working on some of those too, by the way, and so it's really expanded the number of people that benefits the activity in space and again, that's why it's so critically important because we become more and more reliant and we will become more and more reliant on those capabilities that we have to protect him. It's fundamental that we do. So, >>Bucky, I want you to weigh in on this because actually, you you've flown. Uh, I got a call sign which I love interviewing people. Anyone who's a call sign is cool in my book. So, Bucky, I want you to react to that because that's outside of the technology, you know, flying in space. There's >>no >>rule. I mean, is there like a rules? I mean, what's the rules of the road? I mean, state of the right. I mean, what I mean, what what's going? What's gonna have toe happen? Okay, just logistically. >>Well, this is very important because, uh and I've I've had access thio information space derived information for most of my flying career. But the amount of information that we need operate effectively in the 21st century is much greater than Thanet has been in the past. Let me describe the environment s so you can appreciate a little bit more what our challenges are. Where, from a space perspective, we're going to see a new exponential increase in the number of systems that could be satellites. Uh, users and applications, right? And so eso we're going we're growing rapidly into an environment where it's no longer practical to just simply evolved or operate on a perimeter security model. We and with this and as I was brought up previously, we're gonna try to bring in MAWR commercial capabilities. There is a tremendous benefit with increasing the diversity of sources of information. We use it right now. The military relies very heavily on commercial SAT com. We have our military capabilities, but the commercial capabilities give us capacity that we need and we can. We can vary that over time. The same will be true for remote sensing for other broadband communications capabilities on doing other interesting effects. Also, in the modern era, we doom or operations with our friends and allies, our regional partners all around the world, in order to really improve our interoperability and have rapid exchange of information, commercial information, sources and capabilities provides the best means of doing that. So that so that the imperative is very important and what all this describes if you want to put one word on it. ISS, we're involving into ah hybrid space architectures where it's gonna be imperative that we protect the integrity of information and the cyber security of the network for the things most important to us from a national security standpoint. But we have to have the rules that that allows us to freely exchange information rapidly and in a way that that we can guarantee that the right users are getting the right information at the right. >>We're gonna come back to that on the skill set and opportunities for people driving. That's just looking. There's so much opportunity. Preston, I want you to react to this. I interviewed General Keith Alexander last year. He formerly ran Cyber Command. Um, now he's building Cyber Security Technologies, and his whole thesis is you have to share. So the question is, how do you share and lock stuff down at the same time when you have ah, multi sided marketplace in space? You know, suppliers, users, systems. This is a huge security challenge. What's your reaction to this? Because we're intersecting all these things space and cybersecurity. It's just not easy. What's your reaction? >>Absolutely, Absolutely. And what I would say in response to that first would be that security really needs to be baked into the onset of how we develop and implement and deploy our space systems. Um, there's there's always going to be the need to collect and share data across multiple entities, particularly when we're changing scientific data with our mission partners. Eso with that necessitates that we have a security view from the onset, right? We have a system spaces, and they're designed to share information across the world. How do we make sure that those, uh, those other those communication channels so secure, free from interception free from disruption? So they're really done? That necessitates of our space leaders in our cyber leaders to be joining the hip about how to secure our space systems, and the communications there in Clinton brought up a really good point of. And then I'm gonna elaborate on a little bit, just toe invite a little bit more context and talk about some the complexities and challenges we face with this advent of new space and and all of our great commercial partners coming into therefore way, that's going to present a very significant supply chain risk management problems that we have to get our hands around as well. But we have these manufacturers developing these highly specialized components for the space instruments, Um, that as it stands right now, it's very little oversight And how those things air produced, manufactured, put into the space systems communication channels that they use ports protocols that they use to communicate. And that's gonna be a significant challenge for us to get get our hands around. So again, cybersecurity being brought in. And the very onset of these development thes thes decisions in these life cycles was certainly put us in a best better position to secure that data in our in our space missions. >>Yeah, E just pick up on that. You don't mind? Preston made such a really good point there. But you have to bake security in up front, and you know there's a challenge and there's an opportunity, you know, with a lot of our systems today. It was built in a pre cyber security environment, especially our government systems that were built, you know, in many cases 10 years ago, 15 years ago are still on orbit today, and we're thankful that they are. But as we look at this new environment and we understand the threats, if we bake cybersecurity in upfront weaken balance that open application versus the risk a long as we do it up front. And you know, that's one of the reasons that our company developed what we call govcloud, which is a secure cloud, that we use thio to manage data that our customers who want to do work with the federal government or other governments or the national security apparatus. They can operate in that space with the built in and baked in cybersecurity protocols. We have a secret region that both can handle secret and top secret information for the same reasons. But when you bake security into the upfront applications, that really allows you to balance that risk between making it available and accessible in sort of an open architecture way. But being sure that it's protected through things like ITAR certifications and fed ramp, uh, another ice T certifications that we have in place. So that's just a really important point. >>Let's stay high level for a man. You mentioned a little bit of those those govcloud, which made me think about you know, the tactical edge in the military analogy, but also with space similar theater. It's just another theater and you want to stand stuff up. Whether it's communications and have facilities, you gotta do it rapidly, and you gotta do it in a very agile, secure, I high availability secure way. So it's not the old waterfall planning. You gotta be fast is different. Cloud does things different? How do you talk to the young people out there, whether it's apparent with with kids in elementary and middle school to high school, college grad level or someone in the workforce? Because there are no previous jobs, that kind of map to the needs out there because you're talking about new skills, you could be an archaeologist and be the best cyber security guru on the planet. You don't have to have that. There's no degree for what, what we're talking about here. This >>is >>the big confusion around education. I mean, you gotta you like math and you could code you can Anything who wants to comment on that? Because I think this >>is the core issue. I'll say there are more and more programs growing around that educational need, and I could talk about a few things we're doing to, but I just wanna make an observation about what you just said about the need. And how do you get kids involved and interested? Interestingly, I think it's already happening, right. The good news. We're already developing that affinity. My four year old granddaughter can walk over, pick up my iPad, turn it on. Somehow she knows my account information, gets into my account, pulls up in application, starts playing a game. All before I really even realized she had my iPad. I mean, when when kids grow up on the cloud and in technology, it creates that natural proficiency. I think what we have to do is take that natural interest and give them the skill set the tools and capabilities that go with it so that we're managing, you know, the the interest with the technical skills. >>And also, like a fast I mean, just the the hackers are getting educated. Justus fast. Steve. I mean e mean Bucky. What do you do here? You CIt's the classic. Just keep chasing skills. I mean, there are new skills. What are some of those skills? >>Why would I amplify eloquent? Just said, First of all, the, uh, you know, cyber is one of those technology areas where commercial side not not the government is really kind of leading away and does a significant amount of research and development. Ah, billions of dollars are spent every year Thio to evolve new capabilities. And a lot of those companies are, you know, operated and and in some cases, led by folks in their early twenties. So the S O. This is definitely an era and a generation that is really poised in position. Well, uh, Thio take on this challenge. There's some unique aspects to space. Once we deploy a system, uh, it will be able to give me hard to service it, and we're developing capabilities now so that we could go up and and do system upgrades. But that's not a normal thing in space that just because the the technical means isn't there yet. So having software to find capabilities, I's gonna be really paramount being able to dio unique things. The cloud is huge. The cloud is centric to this or architectural, and it's kind of funny because d o d we joke because we just discovered the cloud, you know, a couple years ago. But the club has been around for a while and, uh, and it's going to give us scalability on and the growth potential for doing amazing things with a big Data Analytics. But as Preston said, it's all for not if if we can't trust the data that we receive. And so one of the concepts for future architectures is to evolve into a zero trust model where we trust nothing. We verify and authenticate everyone. And, uh, and that's that's probably a good, uh, point of departure as we look forward into our cybersecurity for space systems into the future. >>Block everyone. Preston. Your reaction to all this gaps, skills, What's needed. I mean it Z everyone's trying to squint through this >>absolutely. And I wanna want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the space agencies and organizations that are responsible for deploying these spaces into submission. So what is gonna take in this new era on, and what do we need from the workforce to be responsive to the challenges that we're seeing? First thing that comes to mind is creating a culture of security throughout aerospace right and ensuring that Azzawi mentioned before security isn't an afterthought. It's sort of baked into our models that we deploy and our rhetoric as well, right? And because again we hire our spaces in years to do it very highly. Specialized thing for a highly specialized, uh, it's topic. Our effort, if we start to incorporate rhetorically the importance of cybersecurity two missing success and missing assurance that's going to lend itself toe having more, more prepared on more capable system engineers that will be able to respond to the threats accordingly. Traditionally, what we see in organizational models it's that there's a cyber security team that's responsible for the for the whole kit kaboodle across the entire infrastructure, from enterprise systems to specialize, specialize, space systems and then a small pocket of spaces, years that that that are really there to perform their tasks on space systems. We really need to bridge that gap. We need to think about cybersecurity holistically, the skills that are necessary for your enterprise. I t security teams need to be the same skills that we need to look for for our system engineers on the flight side. So organizationally we need we need to address that issue and approach it, um todo responsive to the challenges we see our our space systems, >>new space, new culture, new skills. One of the things I want to bring up is looking for success formulas. You know, one of the things we've been seeing in the past 10 years of doing the Cube, which is, you know, we've been called the ESPN of Tech is that there's been kind of like a game ification. I want to. I don't wanna say sports because sports is different, but you're seeing robotics clubs pop up in some schools. It's like a varsity sport you're seeing, you know, twitch and you've got gamers out there, so you're seeing fun built into it. I think Cal Poly's got some challenges going on there, and then scholarships air behind it. So it's almost as if, you know, rather than going to a private sports training to get that scholarship, that never happens. There's so many more scholarship opportunities for are not scholarship, but just job opportunities and even scholarships we've covered as part of this conference. Uh, it's a whole new world of culture. It's much different than when I grew up, which was you know, you got math, science and English. You did >>it >>and you went into your track. Anyone want to comment on this new culture? Because I do believe that there is some new patterns emerging and some best practices anyone share any? >>Yeah, I do, because as you talked about robotics clubs and that sort of things, but those were great and I'm glad those air happening. And that's generating the interest, right? The whole gaming culture generating interest Robotic generates a lot of interest. Space right has captured the American in the world attention as well, with some recent NASA activities and all for the right reasons. But it's again, it's about taking that interested in providing the right skills along the way. So I'll tell you a couple of things. We're doing it a w s that we found success with. The first one is a program called A W s Academy. And this is where we have developed a cloud, uh, program a cloud certification. This is ah, cloud curriculum, if you will, and it's free and it's ready to teach. Our experts have developed this and we're ready to report it to a two year and four year colleges that they can use is part of the curriculum free of charge. And so we're seeing some real value there. And in fact, the governor's in Utah and Arizona recently adopted this program for their two year schools statewide again, where it's already to teach curriculum built by some of the best experts in the industry s so that we can try to get that skills to the people that are interested. We have another program called A W s educate, and this is for students to. But the idea behind this is we have 12 cracks and you can get up to 50 hours of free training that lead to A W s certification, that sort of thing. And then what's really interesting about that is all of our partners around the world that have tied into this program we manage what we call it ws educate Job board. And so if you have completed this educate program now, you can go to that job board and be linked directly with companies that want people with those skills we just helped you get. And it's a perfect match in a perfect marriage there. That one other piece real quickly that we're proud of is the aws Uh restart program. And that's where people who are unemployed, underemployed or transitioning can can go online. Self paced. We have over 500 courses they can take to try to develop those initial skills and get into the industry. And that's been very popular, too, So that those air a couple of things we're really trying to lean into >>anyone else want to react. Thio that question patterns success, best practices, new culture. >>I'd like Thio. The the wonderful thing about what you just touched on is problem solving, right, And there's some very, very good methodologies that are being taught in the universities and through programs like Hacking for Defense, which is sponsored by the National Security Innovation Network, a component of the I you where I work but the But whether you're using a lien methodologies or design school principals or any other method, the thing that's wonderful right now and not just, uh, where I work at the U. The Space force is doing this is well, but we're putting the problem out there for innovators to tackle, And so, rather than be prescriptive of the solutions that we want to procure, we want we want the best minds at all levels to be able to work on the problem. Uh, look at how they can leverage other commercial solutions infrastructure partnerships, uh, Thio to come up with a solution that we can that we can rapidly employ and scale. And if it's a dual use solution or whether it's, uh, civil military or or commercial, uh, in any of the other government solutions. Uh, that's really the best win for for the nation, because that commercial capability again allows us to scale globally and share those best practices with all of our friends and allies. People who share our values >>win win to this commercial. There's a business model potential financial benefits as well. Societal impact Preston. I want to come to you, JPL, NASA. I mean, you work in one of the most awesome places and you know, to me, you know, if you said to me, Hey, John, come working JP like I'm not smart enough to go there like I mean, like, it's a pretty It's intimidating, it might seem >>share folks out there, >>they can get there. I mean, it's you can get there if you have the right skills. I mean I'm just making that up. But, I mean, it is known to be super smart And is it attainable? So share your thoughts on this new culture because you could get the skills to get there. What's your take on all this >>s a bucket. Just missing something that really resonated with me, right? It's do it your love office. So if you put on the front engineer, the first thing you're gonna try to do is pick it apart. Be innovative, be creative and ways to solve that issue. And it has been really encouraging to me to see the ground welcome support an engagement that we've seen across our system. Engineers in space. I love space partners. A tackling the problem of cyber. Now that they know the West at risk on some of these cyber security threats that that they're facing with our space systems, they definitely want to be involved. They want to take the lead. They want to figure things out. They wanna be innovative and creative in that problem solving eso jpl We're doing a few things. Thio Raise the awareness Onda create a culture of security. Andi also create cyber advocates, cybersecurity advocates across our space engineers. We host events like hacked the lad, for example, and forgive me. Take a pause to think about the worst case scenarios that could that could result from that. But it certainly invites a culture of creative problem solving. Um, this is something that that kids really enjoy that are system engineers really enjoyed being a part off. Um, it's something that's new refreshing to them. Eso we were doing things like hosting a monthly cybersecurity advocacy group. When we talk about some of the cyber landscape of our space systems and invite our engineers into the conversation, we do outweighs programs specifically designed to to capture, um, our young folks, uh, young engineers to deceive. They would be interested and show them what this type of security has to offer by ways of data Analytic, since the engineering and those have been really, really successful identifying and bringing in new talent to address the skill gaps. >>Steve, I want to ask you about the d. O. D. You mentioned some of the commercial things. How are you guys engaging the commercial to solve the space issue? Because, um, the normalization in the economy with GPS just seeing spaces impacts everybody's lives. We we know that, um, it's been talked about. And and there's many, many examples. How are you guys the D o. D. From a security standpoint and or just from an advancement innovation standpoint, engaging with commercials, commercial entities and commercial folks? >>Well, I'll throw. I'll throw a, uh, I'll throw ah, compliment to Clint because he did such an outstanding job. The space forces already oriented, uh, towards ah, commercial where it's appropriate and extending the arms. Leveraging the half works on the Space Enterprise Consortium and other tools that allow for the entrepreneurs in the space force Thio work with their counterparts in a commercial community. And you see this with the, uh, you know, leveraging space X away to, uh, small companies who are doing extraordinary things to help build space situational awareness and, uh, s So it's it's the people who make this all happen. And what we do at at the D. O. D level, uh, work at the Office of Secretary defense level is we wanna make sure that they have the right tools to be able to do that in a way that allows these commercial companies to work with in this case of a space force or with cyber command and ways that doesn't redefine that. The nature of the company we want we want We want commercial companies to have, ah, great experience working with d o d. And we want d o d toe have the similar experience working, working with a commercial community, and and we actually work interagency projects to So you're going to see, uh, General Raymond, uh, hey, just recently signed an agreement with the NASA Esa, you're gonna see interagency collaborations on space that will include commercial capabilities as well. So when we speak as one government were not. You know, we're one voice, and that's gonna be tremendous, because if you're a commercial company on you can you can develop a capability that solves problems across the entire space enterprise on the government side. How great is that, Right. That's a scaling. Your solution, gentlemen. Let >>me pick you back on that, if you don't mind. I'm really excited about that. I mentioned new space, and Bucky talked about that too. You know, I've been flying satellites for 30 years, and there was a time where you know the U. S. Government national security. We wouldn't let anybody else look at him. Touch him. Plug into, um, anything else, right. And that probably worked at the time. >>But >>the world has changed. And more >>importantly, >>um, there is commercial technology and capability available today, and there's no way the U. S government or national security that national Intel community can afford economically >>to >>fund all that investment solely anymore. We don't have the manpower to do it anymore. So we have this perfect marriage of a burgeoning industry that has capabilities and it has re sources. And it has trained manpower. And we are seeing whether it's US Space Force, whether it's the intelligence community, whether it's NASA, we're seeing that opened up to commercial providers more than I've ever seen in my career. And I can tell you the customers I work with every day in a W s. We're building an entire ecosystem now that they understand how they can plug in and participate in that, and we're just seeing growth. But more importantly, we're seeing advanced capability at cheaper cost because of that hybrid model. So that really is exciting. >>Preston. You know you mentioned earlier supply chain. I don't think I think you didn't use the word supply chain. Maybe you did. But you know about the components. Um, you start opening things up and and your what you said baking it in to the beginning, which is well known. Uh, premise. It's complicated. So take me through again, Like how this all gonna work securely because And what's needed for skill sets because, you know, you're gonna open. You got open source software, which again, that's open. We live in a free society in the United States of America, so we can't lock everything down. You got components that are gonna be built anywhere all around the world from vendors that aren't just a certified >>or maybe >>certified. Um, it's pretty crazy. So just weigh in on this key point because I think Clint has it right. And but that's gonna be solved. What's your view on this? >>Absolutely. And I think it really, really start a top, right? And if you look back, you know, across, um in this country, particularly, you take the financial industry, for example, when when that was a burgeoning industry, what had to happen to ensure that across the board. Um, you know, your your finances were protected these way. Implemented regulations from the top, right? Yeah. And same thing with our health care industry. We implemented regulations, and I believe that's the same approach we're gonna need to take with our space systems in our space >>industry >>without being too directive or prescriptive. Instance she ating a core set of principles across the board for our manufacturers of space instruments for deployment and development of space systems on for how space data and scientific data is passed back and forth. Eso really? We're gonna need to take this. Ah, holistic approach. Thio, how we address this issue with cyber security is not gonna be easy. It's gonna be very challenging, but we need to set the guard rails for exactly what goes into our space systems, how they operate and how they communicate. >>Alright, so let's tie this back to the theme, um, Steve and Clint, because this is all about workforce gaps, opportunities. Um, Steve, you mentioned software defined. You can't do break fix in space. You can't just send a technician up in the space to fix a component. You gotta be software defined. We're talking about holistic approach, about commercial talk about business model technology with software and policy. We need people to think through, like you know. What the hell are you gonna do here, right? Do you just noticed road at the side of the road to drive on? There's no rules of engagement. So what I'm seeing is certainly software Check. If you wanna have a job for the next millennial software policy who solves two problems, what does freedom looked like in space Congestion Contention and then, obviously, business model. Can you guys comment on these three areas? Do you agree? And what specific person might be studying in grad school or undergraduate or in high school saying, Hey, I'm not a techie, but they can contribute your thoughts. I'll >>start off with, uh, speak on on behalf of the government today. I would just say that as policy goes, we need to definitely make sure that we're looking towards the future. Ah, lot of our policy was established in the past under different conditions, and, uh, and if there's anything that you cannot say today is that space is the same as it was even 10 years ago. So the so It's really important that our policy evolves and recognizes that that technology is going to enable not just a new ways of doing things, but also force us to maybe change or or get rid of obsolete policies that will inhibit our ability to innovate and grow and maintain peace with with a rapid, evolving threat. The for the for the audience today, Uh, you know, you want some job assurance, cybersecurity and space it's gonna be It's gonna be an unbelievable, uh, next, uh, few decades and I couldn't think of a more exciting for people to get into because, you know, spaces Ah, harsh environment. We're gonna have a hard time just dud being able differentiate, you know, anomalies that occur just because of the environment versus something that's being hacked. And so JPL has been doing this for years on they have Cem Cem great approaches, but but this is this is gonna be important if you put humans on the moon and you're going to sustain them there. Those life support systems are gonna be using, you know, state of the art computer technology, and which means, is also vulnerable. And so eso the consequences of us not being prepared? Uh, not just from our national security standpoint, but from our space exploration and our commercial, uh, economic growth in space over the long term all gonna be hinged on this cyber security environment. >>Clint, your thoughts on this too ill to get. >>Yeah. So I certainly agree with Bucky. But you said something a moment ago that Bucky was talking about as well. But that's the idea that you know in space, you can't just reach out and touch the satellite and do maintenance on the satellite the way you can't a car or a tank or a plane or a ship or something like that. And that is true. However, right, comma, I want to point out. You know, the satellite servicing industry is starting to develop where they're looking at robotic techniques in Cape abilities to go up in services satellite on orbit. And that's very promising off course. You got to think through the security policy that goes with that, of course. But the other thing that's really exciting is with artificial intelligence and machine learning and edge computing and database analytics and all those things that right on the cloud. You may not even need to send a robotic vehicle to a satellite, right? If you can upload and download software defined, fill in the blank right, maybe even fundamentally changing the mission package or the persona, if you will, of the satellite or the spacecraft. And that's really exciting to, ah, lot >>of >>security policy that you've gotta work through. But again, the cloud just opens up so many opportunities to continue to push the boundaries. You know, on the AWS team, the aerospace and satellite team, which is, you know, the new team that I'm leading. Now our motto is to the stars through the cloud. And there are just so many exciting opportunities right for for all those capabilities that I just mentioned to the stars through the cloud >>President, your thoughts on this? >>Yes, eso won >>a >>little bit of time talking about some of the business model implications and some of the challenges that exists there. Um, in my experience, we're still working through a bit of a language barrier of how we define risk management for our space systems. Traditionally traditionally risk management models is it is very clear what poses a risk to a flight mission. Our space mission, our space system. Um, and we're still finding ways to communicate cyber risk in the same terms that are system engineers are space engineers have traditionally understood. Um, this is a bit of a qualitative versus quantitative, a language barrier. But however adopting a risk management model that includes cybersecurity, a za way to express wish risk to miss the success, I think I think it would be a very good thing is something that that we have been focused on the J. P o as we Aziz, we look at the 34 years beyond. How do >>we >>risk that gap and not only skills but communication of cyber risk and the way that our space engineers and our project engineers and a space system managers understand >>Clinton, like Thio talk about space Force because this is the most popular new thing. It's only a couple of nine months in roughly not even a year, uh, already changing involving based on some of the reporting we've done even here at this symposium and on the Internet. Um, you know, when I was growing up, you know, I wasn't there when JFK said, you know, we're gonna get to the moon. I was born in the sixties, so, you know, when I was graduating my degree, you know, Draper Labs, Lincoln Lab, JPL, their pipeline and people wasn't like a surge of job openings. Um, so this kind of this new space new space race, you know, Kennedy also said that Torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans. So in a way that's happening right now with space force. A new generation is here is a digital generation. It's multi disciplinary generation. Could you take a minute and share, uh, for for our audience? And here at this symposium, um, the mission of Space Force and where you see it going because this truly is different. And I think anyone who's young e I mean, you know, if this was happening when I was in college would be like dropping everything. I'm in there, I think, cause there's so many areas thio jump into, um, it's >>intellectually challenging. >>It's intoxicating in some level. So can you share your thoughts? >>Yeah. Happy to do that. Of course. I I need to remind everybody that as a week ago I'm formally retired. So I'm not an official spokesman for US forces. But with that, you know, it said I did spend the last 18 months planning for it, designing and standing it up. And I'll tell you what's really exciting is you know, the commander of, uh, US Base Force General J. Raymond, who's the right leader at the right time. No question in my >>mind. But >>he said, I want to stand up the Space Force as the first fully digital service in the United States. Right? So he is trying >>to bake >>cloud baked cybersecurity, baked digital transformational processes and everything we did. And that was a guidance he gave us every day, every day. When we rolled in. He said, Remember, guys, I don't wanna be the same. I don't wanna be stale. I want new thinking, new capabilities and I want it all to be digital on. That's one of the reasons When we brought the first wave of people into the space force, we brought in space operations, right. People like me that flew satellites and launch rockets, we brought in cyber space experts, and we brought in intelligence experts. Those were the first three waves of people because of that, you know, perfect synergy between space and cyber and intel all wrapped in >>it. >>And so that was really, really smart. The other thing I'll say just about, you know, Kennedy's work. We're going to get to the moon. So here we are. Now we're going back to the Moon Project Artemus that NASA is working next man first woman on the moon by 2024 is the plan and >>then >>with designs to put a permanent presence on the moon and then lean off to march. So there was a lot to get excited about. I will tell you, as we were taking applications and looking at rounding out filling out the village in the U. S. Space Force, we were overwhelmed with the number of people that wanted, and that was a really, really good things. So they're off to a good start, and they're just gonna accomplishment major things. I know for sure. >>Preston, your thoughts on this new generation people out there were like I could get into this. This is a path. What's your what's your opinion on this? And what's your >>E could, uh, you so bold as to say >>that >>I feel like I'm a part of that new generation eso I grew up very much into space. Uh, looking at, um, listen to my, uh, folks I looked up to like Carl Sagan. Like like Neil Tyson. DeGrasse on did really feeling affinity for what What this country has done is for is a space program are focused on space exploration on bond. Through that, I got into our security, as it means from the military. And I just because I feel so fortunate that I could merge both of those worlds because of because of the generational, um, tailoring that we do thio promote space exploration and also the advent of cybersecurity expertise that is needed in this country. I feel like that. We are We are seeing a conversions of this too. I see a lot of young people really getting into space exploration. I see a lot of young people as well. Um uh, gravitating toward cybersecurity as a as a course of study. And to see those two worlds colliding and converse is something that's very near and dear to me. And again, I I feel like I'm a byproduct of that conversion, which is which, Really, Bothwell for space security in the future, >>we'll your great leader and inspiration. Certainly. Senior person as well. Congratulations, Steve. You know, young people motivational. I mean, get going. Get off the sidelines. Jump in Water is fine, Right? Come on in. What's your view on motivating the young workforce out there and anyone thinking about applying their skills on bringing something to the table? >>Well, look at the options today. You have civil space President represents you have military space. Uh, you have commercial space on and even, you know, in academia, the research, the potential as a as an aspiring cyber professional. All of you should be thinking about when we when we When? When we first invented the orbit, which eventually became the Internet, Uh, on Lee, we were, uh if all we had the insight to think Well, geez, you know whether the security implications 2030 years from now of this thing scaling on growing and I think was really good about today's era. Especially as Clint said, because we were building this space infrastructure with a cyber professionals at ground zero on dso the So the opportunity there is to look out into the future and say we're not just trying to secure independent her systems today and assure the free for all of of information for commerce. You know, the GPS signal, Uh, is Justus much in need of protection as anything else tied to our economy, But the would have fantastic mission. And you could do that. Uh, here on the ground. You could do it, uh, at a great companies like Amazon Web services. But you can also one of these states. Perhaps we go and be part of that contingency that goes and does the, uh, the se's oh job that that president has on the moon or on Mars and, uh, space will space will get boring within a generation or two because they'll just be seen as one continuum of everything we have here on Earth. And, uh, and that would be after our time. But in the meantime, is a very exciting place to be. And I know if I was in in my twenties, I wanna be, uh, jumping in with both feet into it. >>Yeah, great stuff. I mean, I think space is gonna be around for a long long time. It's super exciting and cybersecurity making it secure. And there's so many areas defeating on. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your awesome insight. Great panel. Um, great inspiration. Every one of you guys. Thank you very much for for sharing for the space and cybersecurity symposium. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. >>Thanks, John. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, >>I'm >>John for your host for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. Thanks for watching.

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello and welcome to thecube's coverage we're here hosting with cal poly an amazing event space in the intersection of cyber security this session is defending satellite and space infrastructure from cyber threats got two great guests we've got major general john shaw combined four space component commander u.s space command and vandenberg air force base in california and roland cuello who's the ceo of maverick space systems gentlemen thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the cal poly space and cyber security symposium appreciate it absolutely um guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain obviously it's a war warfighting domain it's also the future of the world and this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical everyone knows how their phones work and gps just small examples of all the impacts i'd like to discuss with this hour this topic with you guys so if we can have you guys do an opening statement general if you can start with your opening statement we'll take it from there thanks john and greetings from vandenberg air force base we are just down the road from cal poly here on the central coast of california and uh very proud to be part of this uh effort and part of the partnership that we have with with cal poly on a number of fronts um i should uh so in in my job here i actually uh have two hats that i wear and it's i think worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion you know we had two major organizational events within our department of defense with regard to space last year in 2019 and probably the one that made the most headlines was the stand-up of the united states space force that happened uh december 20th last year and again momentous the first new branch in our military since 1947 uh and uh it is a it's just over nine months old now as we're making this recording uh and already we're seeing a lot of change uh with regard to how we're approaching uh organizing training and equipping on a service side or space capabilities and so i uh in that with regard to the space force the hat i wear there is commander of space operations command that was what was once 14th air force when we were still part of the air force here at vandenberg and in that role i'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective didn't make quite as many headlines but another major change that happened last year was the uh the reincarnation i guess i would say of united states space command and that is a combatant command it's how our department of defense organizes to actually conduct warfighting operations um most people are more familiar perhaps with uh central command centcom or northern command northcom or even strategic command stratcom well now we have a space com we actually had one from 1985 until 2002 and then stood it down in the wake of the 9 11 attacks and a reorganization of homeland security but we've now stood up a separate command again operationally to conduct joint space operations and in that organization i wear a hat as a component commander and that's the combined force-based component command uh working with other all the additional capabilities that other services bring as well as our allies that combined in that title means that uh i under certain circumstances i would lead an allied effort uh in space operations and so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of california uh both working the uh how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the space force side and then how we actually operate those capabilities it's a point of joint in support of joint warfighters around the world um and and national security interests so that's the context now what el i i also should mention you kind of alluded to john you're beginning that we're kind of in a change situation than we were a number of years ago and that space we now see space as a warfighting domain for most of my career going back a little ways most of my my focus in my jobs was making sure i could bring space capabilities to those that needed them bringing gps to that special operations uh soldier on the ground somewhere in the world bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control bringing those capabilities for other uses but i didn't have to worry in most of my career about actually defending those space capabilities themselves well now we do we've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space we now are treating it more like any other domain normalizing in that regard as a warfighting domain and so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space to to design our capabilities to be defended and perhaps most of all to train our people for this new mission set so it's a very exciting time and i know we'll get into it but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe without talking about cyber because they fit together very closely so anyway thanks for the chance to be here today and i look forward to the discussion general thank you so much for that opening statement and i would just say that not only is it historic with the space force it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities for to do more and to do things differently so i appreciate that statement roland your opening statement your your job is to put stuff in space faster cheaper smaller better your opening statement please um yes um thank you john um and yes you know to um general shaw's point you know with with the space domain and the need to protect it now um is incredibly important and i hope that we are more of a help um than a thorn in your side um in terms of you know building satellites smaller faster cheaper um you know and um definitely looking forward to this discussion and you know figuring out ways where um the entire space domain can work together you know from industry to to us government even to the academic environment as well so first would like to say and preface this by saying i am not a cyber security expert um we you know we build satellites um and uh we launch them into orbit um but we are by no means you know cyber security experts and that's why um you know we like to partner with organizations like the california cyber security institute because they help us you know navigate these requirements um so um so i'm the ceo of um of maverick space systems we are a small aerospace business in san luis obispo california and we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers all the way from the academic environment to the us government and everything in between we support customers through an entire you know program life cycle from mission architecture and formulation all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit and so what we try to do is um provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate so whether it be reducing mass or volume um creating greater launch opportunities or providing um the infrastructure and the technology um to help those innovations you know mature in orbit you know that's you know that's what we do our team has experienced over the last 20 years working with small satellites and definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the cubesat standard by cal poly and stanford uh back in 2000 and so you know we are in you know vandenberg's backyard um we came from cal poly san luis obispo um and you know our um our hearts are fond you know of this area and working with the local community um a lot of that success um that we have had is directly attributable um to the experiences that we learned as students um working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors um you know that's you know all you know thanks to cal poly so just wanted to tell a quick story so you know back in 2000 just imagine a small group of undergraduate students you know myself included with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a russian launch vehicle um you know many of us were only 18 or 19 not even at the legal age to drink yet um but as you know essentially teenagers we're managing million dollar budgets um and we're coordinating groups um from around the world um and we knew that we knew what we needed to accomplish um yet we didn't really know um what we were doing when we first started um the university was extremely supportive um and you know that's the cal poly learn by doing philosophy um i remember you know the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel and we were discussing the need to to register with the state department for itar nobody really knew what itar was back then um and you know discussing this with the chief legal counsel um you know she was asking what is itar um and we essentially had to explain you know this is um launching satellites as part of the um the u.s munitions list and essentially we have a similar situation you know exporting munitions um you know we are in similar categories um you know as you know as weapons um and so you know after that initial shock um everybody jumped in you know both feet forward um the university um you know our head legal counsel professors mentors and the students um you know knew we needed to tackle this problem um because you know the the need was there um to launch these small satellites and um you know the the reason you know this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community um is that the technology and the you know innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels you know so we have academia commercial national governments we even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and you know building satellite hardware um and the thing is you know the the importance of cyber security is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches you know people um at a very young age um and so you know we hope to have a conversation today um to figure out you know how do we um create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive but we also you know protect and you know keep their data safe as well thank you very much roland appreciate that uh story too as well thanks for your opening statement gentlemen i mean i love this topic because defending the assets in space is is as obvious um you look at it but there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now and generally you kind of pointed out the historic nature of space force and how it's changing already operationally training skills tools all that stuff is revolving you know in the tech world that i live in you know change the world is a topic they use that's thrown around a lot you can change the world a lot of young people we have just other panels on this where we're talking about how to motivate young people changing the world is what it's all about with technology for the better evolution is just an extension of another domain in this case space is just an extension of other domains similar things are happening but it's different there's a huge opportunity to change the world so it's faster there's an expanded commercial landscape out there certainly government space systems are moving and changing how do we address the importance of cyber security in space general we'll start with you because this is real it's exciting if you're a young person there's touch points of things to jump into tech building hardware to changing laws and and everything in between is an opportunity and it's exciting and it's truly a chance to change the world how does the commercial government space systems teams address the importance of cyber security so john i think it starts with with the realization that as i like to say that cyber and space are bffs uh there's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavy reliant heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber and frankly there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application and when you realize that you see how how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at at speed it becomes fundamental to to the to answering your question let me give a couple examples we one of the biggest challenges i have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain those on the on the on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans across large land masses and i talk about the tyranny of volume and you know right now we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere there's activity that's extending out to the out there we expect nasa to be conducting uh perhaps uh human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years so it extends out that far when you do the math that's a huge volume how do you do that how do you understand what's happening in real time in within that volume it is a big data problem by the very definition of that that kind of effort to that kind of challenge and to do it successfully in the years ahead it's going to require many many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena and that's just if people are not up to mischief once you have threats introduced into that environment it is even more challenging so i'd say it's a big data problem that we'll be enjoying uh tackling in the years ahead a second example is you know we if i if i had to if we had to take a vote of what were the most uh amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans i think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list whether it's the nasa spacecraft that explore other planets or the ones that we or gps satellites that that amazingly uh provide a wonderful service to the entire globe uh and beyond they are amazing technological machines that's not going to stop i mean all the work that roland talked about at the at the even even that we're doing it at the kind of the microsoft level is is putting cutting-edge technology into smaller packages you can to get some sort of capability out of that as we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes or for exploration or commercial or civil the the cutting edge technologies of uh artificial intelligence uh and machine to machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward um and then there's the threat piece as we try to as we operate these these capabilities how these constellations grow that's going to be done via networks and as i've already pointed out space is a warfighting domain that means those networks will come under attack we expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict it may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time everywhere in many sectors of of activity and so by painting that picture you kind of get you we start to see how it's intertwined at the very very base most basic level the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space with that then comes the need to any cutting edge cyber security capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities and we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning we haven't done that in the past as well as we should but moving forward from this point on it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our new capability roland we're talking about now critical infrastructure we're talking about new capabilities being addressed really fast so it's kind of chaotic now there's threats so it's not as easy as just having capabilities because you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out but now you've got critical infrastructure which then will enable other things down down the line how do you protect it how do we address this how do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint because you know malware these techniques can be mapped in as extended into into space and takeovers wartime peacetime these things are all going to be under threat that's pretty well understood i think people kind of get that how do we address it what's your what's your take yeah you know absolutely and you know i couldn't agree more with general shaw you know with cyber security and space being so intertwined um and you know i think with fast and rapid innovation um comes you know the opportunity for threats especially um if you have bad actors um that you know want to cause harm and so you know as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds um you kind of have a common goal of um you know doing the best you can um and you know pushing the technology balance making it smaller faster cheaper um but a lot of times what entrepreneurs and you know small businesses and supply chains um are doing and don't realize it is a lot of these components are dual use right i mean you could have a very benign commercial application but then a small you know modification to it and turn it into a military application and if you do have these bad actors they can exploit that and so you know i think the the big thing is um creating a organization that is you know non-biased that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cyber security in space i think you know one group that would be perfect for that you know is um cci um you know they understand both the cybersecurity side of things and they also have you know at cal poly um you know the the small satellite group um and you know just having kind of a a clearinghouse or um an agency where um can provide information that is free um you know you don't need a membership for and to be able to kind of collect that but also you know reach out to the entire value chain you know for a mission and um making them aware um of you know what potential capabilities are and then how it might um be you know potentially used as a weapon um and you know keeping them informed because i think you know the the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing and so how do we get that information free flowing to you know to the us government so that they can take that information create assessments and be able to not necessarily um stop threats from occurring presently but identify them long before that they would ever even happen um yeah that's you know general i want to i want to follow up on that real quick before we go to the next talk track critical infrastructure um you mentioned you know across the oceans long distance volume you know when you look at the physical world you know you had you know power grids here united states you had geography you had perimeters uh the notion of a perimeter and the moat this is and then you had digital comes in then you have we saw software open up and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter and from a defense standpoint and that everything changed and we had to fortify those critical assets uh in the u.s space increases the same problem statement significantly because it's you can't just have a perimeter you can't have a moat it's open it's everywhere like what digital's done and that's why we've seen a slurge of cyber in the past two decades attacks with software so this isn't going to go away you need the critical infrastructure you're putting it up there you're formulating it and you've got to protect it how do you view that because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement what's the current thinking yeah i i think my sense is a mindset that you can build a a firewall or a defense or some other uh system that isn't dynamic in his own right is probably not heading in the right direction i think cyber security in the future whether it's for our space systems or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine um a speed and dynamic um i don't think it's too far off where we will have uh machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them and by the way the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing and so i i guess i would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough it's probably going to be a constantly evolving capability constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats that's the kind of use case just to kind of you know as you were kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors i mean i tell my young kids and everyone man it's more exciting now i wish i was 18 again it's so so exciting with ai bro i want to get your thoughts we were joking on another panel with the dod around space and the importance of it obviously and we're going to have that here and then we had a joke it's like oh software's defined everything it says software's everything ai and and i said well here in the united states companies had data centers and they went to the cloud and they said you can't do break fix it's hard to do break fix in space you can't just send a tech up i get that today but soon maybe robotics the general mentions robotics technologies and referencing some of the accomplishments fixing things is almost impossible in space but maybe form factors might get better certainly software will play a role what's your thoughts on that that landscape yeah absolutely you know for for software in orbit um you know there's there's a push for you know software-defined radios um to basically go from hardware to software um and you know that's that that's a critical link um if you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board you could you know take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc and so you know creating standards and you know that kind of um initial threshold of security um you know for let's say you know these radios you know communications and making that um available um to the entire supply chain to the satellite builders um and operators you know is incredibly key and you know that's again one of the initiatives that um that cci is um is tackling right now as well general i want to get your thoughts on best practices around cyber security um state of the art today uh and then some guiding principles and kind of how the if you shoot the trajectory forward what what might happen uh around um supply chain there's been many stories where oh we outsourced the chips and there's a little chip sitting in a thing and it's built by someone else in china and the software is written from someone in europe and the united states assembles it it gets shipped and it's it's corrupt and it has some cyber crime making i'm oversimplifying the the statement but this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property uh from multiple partners whether it's from software to creation and then deployment you get supply chain tiers what are some of the best practices that you see involving that don't stunt the innovation but continues to innovate but people can operate safely what's your thoughts yeah so on supply chain i think i think the symposium here is going to get to hear from lieutenant general jt thompson uh from space missile system center down in los angeles and and uh he's a he's just down the road from us there uh on the coast um and his team is is the one that we look to really focus on as he acquires and develop again bake in cyber security from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from and and properly assessing those as you as you put together your space systems is a key uh piece of what his team is focused on so i expect we'll hear him talk about that when it talks to i think she asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward well another way that we don't do it right is if we take a long time to build something and then you know general general jt thompson's folks take a while to build something and then they hand it over to to to me and my team to operate and then they go hands-free and and then and then that's you know that's what i have for for years to operate until the next thing comes along that's a little old school what we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go we actually have partnership between general thompson's team and mine here at vandenberg on our ops floor or our combined space operations center that are actually working in real time together better tools that we can use to understand what's going on the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications to space domain awareness sensors and such and so and we're developing those capabilities in real time it's a dev and and with the security pieces so devsecops is we're practicing that in in real time i think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve but it has to be done again in close partnership all the time it's not a sequential industrial age process while i'm on the subject of partnerships so general thompson's and team and mine have good partnerships it's part partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful and that uh it means with with academia in some of the relationships that we have here with cal poly it's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before the old style business was to work with just a few large um companies that had a lot of space experience well we need we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities and i expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of and and organizations being part of that partnership that will work going forward i mentioned at the beginning that um uh allies are important to us so everything that uh that role and i've been talking about i think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships right it doesn't help me uh as a combined force component commander which is again one of my jobs it doesn't help me if the united states capabilities are cyber secure but i'm trying to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cyber secure so that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together so again close partnering continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors with as many um different sectors of our economy uh as possible are the ingredients to success general i'd love to just follow up real quick i was having just a quick reminder for a conversation i had with last year with general keith alexander who was does a lot of cyber security work and he was talking about the need to share faster and the new school is you got to share faster and to get the data you mentioned observability earlier you need to see what everything's out there he's a real passionate person around getting the data getting it fast and having trusted partners so that's not it's kind of evolving as i mean sharing is a well-known practice but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially so there's a trust relationship there's now a new ecosystem that's new for uh government how do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber so it's i don't know if it's necessarily new but it's at a scale that we've never seen before and by the way it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective classification of data and information at various levels and then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors whether it's commercial academic or allies so it gets very very uh a complex web very quickly um so that's part of the challenge we're working through how can we how can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion it is certainly not optimal today it's it's very difficult even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that i could see a solution in the future where our cyber security is good enough that maybe i only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment um to uh to make that all happen as quickly as possible so you've actually uh john you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have is um is evolving our networks to properly share with the right people at the right uh clearance levels as at speed of war which is what we're going to need yeah and i wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity again this discussion here at cal poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems and um it's again it's super exciting if you you know you're geeking out on this it's if you have a tech degree or you're interested in changing the world there's so many new things that could be applied right now roland will get your thoughts on this because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing this is a massive shift all the theaters of the tech industry are are changing rapidly at the same time okay and it affects policy law but also deep tech the startup communities are super important in all this too we can't forget them obviously the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives but your story about being in the dorm room now you got the boardroom and now you got everything in between you have startups out there that want to and can contribute and you know what's an itar i mean i got all these acronym certifications is there a community motion to bring startups in in a safe way but also give them a ability to contribute because you look at open source that proved everyone wrong on software that's happening now with this now open network concept the general is kind of alluding to which is it's a changing landscape your thoughts i know you're passionate about this yeah absolutely you know and i think um you know as general shaw mentioned you know we need to get information out there faster more timely and to the right people um and involving not only just stakeholders in the us but um internationally as well you know and as entrepreneurs um you know we have this very lofty vision or goal uh to change the world and um oftentimes um you know entrepreneurs including myself you know we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can and we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching um you know other folks and in terms of a community i don't know of any formal community out there it's mostly ad hoc and you know these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say have you know was was a student working on a satellite um you know in college and they love that entrepreneurial spirit and so they said well i'm gonna start my own company and so you know a lot of the these ad hoc networks are just from relationships um that are that have been built over the last two decades um you know from from colleagues that you know at the university um i do think formalizing this and creating um kind of a you know clearinghouse to to handle all of this is incredibly important yeah um yeah there's gonna be a lot of entrepreneurial activity no doubt i mean just i mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time so i mean this brings up the question though while we're on this topic um you got the remote work with covid everyone's working remotely we're doing this remote um interview rather than being on stage works changing how people work and engage certainly physical will come back but if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent you know they're all clustered around the bases and there's always been these areas where you're you're a space person you're kind of working there and there's jobs there and if you were cyber you were 10 in other areas over the past decade there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location as you see the intersection of space general start with you you know first of all central coast is a great place to live i know that's where you guys live but you can start to bring together these two cultures sometimes they're you know not the same maybe they're getting better we know they're being integrated so general can you just share your thoughts because this is uh one of those topics that everyone's talking about but no one's actually kind of addressed directly um yeah john i i think so i think i want to answer this by talking about where i think the space force is going because i think if there was ever an opportunity or inflection point in our department of defense to sort of change culture and and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and and really kind of change uh maybe uh some of the ways that the department of defense has does things that are probably archaic space force is an inflection point for that uh general raymond our our chief of space operations has said publicly for a while now he wants the us space force to be the first truly digital service and uh you know what we what we mean by that is you know we want the folks that are in the space force to be the ones that are the first adopters or the early adopters of of technology um to be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge technological developments on space and cyber and and other um other sectors of the of of the of the economy that are technologically focused uh and i think there's some can that can generate some excitement i think and it means that we probably end up recruiting people into the space force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the department of defense looks to and i think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation um into the service that i think is frankly is is really exciting so if you put together everything i mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever and i think there's always been an excitement in them you know from the very beginning in the american psyche about space you start to put all these ingredients together and i think you see where i'm going with this that really changed that cultural uh mindset that you were describing it's an exciting time for sure and again changing the world and this is what you're seeing today people do want to change world they want a modern world that's changing roy look at your thoughts on this i was having an interview a few years back with a tech entrepreneur um techie and we were joking we were just kind of riffing and we and i said everything that's on star trek will be invented and we're almost there actually if you think about it except for the transporter room you got video you got communicators so you know not to bring in the star trek reference with space force this is digital and you start thinking about some of the important trends it's going to be up and down the stack from hardware to software to user experience everything your thoughts and reaction yeah abs absolutely and so you know what we're seeing is um timeline timelines shrinking dramatically um because of the barrier to entry for you know um new entrants and you know even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low right so if you take um previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit it would take years because you would test it on the ground you would verify that it can operate in space in a space environment and then you would go ahead and launch it and you know we're talking tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that now um we've cut that down from years to months when you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time because you're getting valuable data back and so you know we're seeing technology being developed you know for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months um and the whole kind of process um you know that that we're doing as a small business is you know trying to enable that and so allowing these entrepreneurs and small small companies to to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than you know testing on the ground you know this is a great point i think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier the economics and the business model of space is doable i mean you do a mission study you get paid for that you have technology you can get stuff up up quickly and there's a cost structure there and again the alternative was waterfall planning years and millions now the form factors are different now again there may be different payloads involved but you can standardize payloads you got robotic arms all this is all available this brings up the congestion problem this is going to be on the top of mind the generals of course but you got the proliferation okay of these constellation systems you have more and more tech vectors i mean essentially that's malware i mean that's a probe you throw something up in space that could cause some interference maybe a takeover general this is the this is the real elephant in the room the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations so general how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix so i i think the uh you know i guess i'm gonna i'm gonna be a little more optimistic john than i think you pitched that i'm actually excited about these uh new mega constellations in leo um i'm excited about the the growing number of actors that are that are going into space for various reasons and why is that it's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine uh for the nation and for human society so the question is so so i think we want that to happen right when uh um when uh we could go to almost any any other domain in history and and and you know there when when air traffic air air travel started to become much much more commonplace with many kinds of uh actors from from private pilots flying their small planes all the way up to large airliners uh you know there there was a problem with congestion there was a problem about um challenges about uh behavior and are we gonna be able to manage this and yes we did and it was for the great benefit of society i could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things and so this is actually exciting about space we are just going to have to find the ways as a society and it's not just the department of defense it's going to be civil it's going to be international find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain i do think the space force uh will play a role in in providing security in the space environment as we venture further out as as economic opportunities emerge uh wherever they are um in the in the lunar earth lunar system or even within the solar system space force is going to play a role in that but i'm actually really excited about the those possibilities hey by the way i got to say you made me think of this when you talked about star trek and and and space force and our technologies i remember when i was younger watching the the next generation series i thought one of the coolest things because being a musician in my in my spare time i thought one of the coolest things was when um commander riker would walk into his quarters and and say computer play soft jazz and there would just be the computer would just play music you know and this was an age when you know we had we had hard uh um uh media right like how will that that is awesome man i can't wait for the 23rd century when i can do that and where we are today is is so incredible on those lines the things that i can ask alexa or siri to play um well that's the thing everything that's on star trek think about it almost invented i mean you got the computers you got the only thing really is the holograms are starting to come in you got now the transporter room now that's physics we'll work on that right right so there's a there is this uh a balance between physics and imagination but uh we have not exhausted either well um personally everyone that knows me knows i'm a huge star trek fan all the series of course i'm an original purist but at that level but this is about economic incentive as well roland i want to get your thoughts because you know the gloom and doom you got to think about the the bad stuff to make it good if i if i put my glass half full on the table there's economic incentives just like the example of the plane and the air traffic there's there's actors that are more actors that are incented to have a secure system what's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed absolutely so and you know one of the things that we've seen over the years um as you know we build these small satellites is a lot of the technology you know that the general is talking about um you know voice recognition miniaturized chips and sensors um started on the ground and i mean you know you have you know your iphone um that about 15 years ago before the first iphone came out um you know we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors um that we were putting in our satellites back then we didn't know if they were going to work and then um a few years later as these students graduate they go off and they go out to under you know other industries and so um some of the technology that was first kind of put in these cubesats in the early 2000s you know kind of ended up in the first generation iphone smartphones um and so being able to take that technology rapidly you know incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage because um not only are your costs going down um because you know you're mass producing you know these types of terrestrial technologies um but then you can also um you know increase you know revenue and profit um you know by by having you know smaller and cheaper systems general let's talk about that for real quickly it's a good point i want to just shift it into the playbook i mean everyone talks about playbooks for management for tech for startups for success i mean one of the playbooks that's clear from in history is investment in r d around military and or innovation that has a long view spurs innovation commercially i mean just there's a huge many decades of history that shows that hey we got to start thinking about these these challenges and you know next you know it's in an iphone this is history this is not like a one-off and now with space force you get you're driving you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital you know we we riff about star trek which is fun but the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new cool mind-blowing things could you share your thoughts on how you sell that people who write the checks or recruit more talent well so i first i totally agree with your thesis that the that you know national security well could probably go back an awful long way hundreds to thousands of years that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity because um you know i think the the probably the two things that drive drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money uh but only by beating that out are trying to stay alive um and uh and so i don't think that's going to go away and i do think that space force can play a role um as it pursues uh security uh structures you know within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes are going to be at the cutting edge this isn't the first time um i think we can point back to the origins of the internet really started in the department of defense and with a partnership i should add with academia that's how the internet got started that was the creativity in order to to meet some needs there cryptography has its roots in security but we use it uh in in national security but now we use it in for economic reasons and meant and a host of other kinds of reasons and then space itself right i mean we still look back to uh apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to to either begin careers in in technical areas or in space and and so on so i think i think in that same spirit you're absolutely right i guess i'm totally agreeing with your thesis the space force uh will be and a uh will have a positive inspirational influence in that way and we need to to realize that so when we are asking for when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs we need to spread that net very far look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that that can that can work on those when you're on the new frontier you've got to have a team sport it's a team effort you mentioned the internet just anecdotally i'm old enough to remember this because i remember the days that was going on and said the government if the policy decisions that the u.s made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand they didn't try to commercialize it too fast and but there was some policy work that was done that had a direct effect to the innovation versus take it over and next you know it's out of control so i think you know i think this this just a cross-disciplinary skill set becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved and that's one of the big themes of this symposium so it's a great point thank you for sharing that roland your thoughts on this because you know you got policy decisions we all want to run faster we want to be more innovative but you got to have some ops view now mostly ops people want things very tight very buttoned up secure the innovators want to go faster it's the yin and yang that's that's the world we live in how's it all balanced in your mind yeah um you know one of the things um that may not be apparently obvious is that you know the us government and department of um of defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector um you know they're not the traditional venture capitalists but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding um you know and when companies see that the us governments is interested in something businesses will will re-vector um you know to provide that capability and in the i would say the more recent years we've had a huge influx of private equity venture capital um coming into the markets to kind of help augment um you know the government investment and i think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity venture capitalists and the us government is incredibly important because the two sides you know can can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal but then also too on um you know the other side is you know there's that human element um and as general shaw was saying it's like not you know not only do companies you know obviously want to thrive and do really well some companies just want to stay alive um to see their technology kind of you know grow into what they've always dreamed of and you know oftentimes entrepreneurs um are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll they have to you know keep the lights on and so sometimes they'll take investment um from places where they may normally would not have you know from potentially foreign investment that could potentially you know cause issues with you know the you know the us supply chain well my final question is the best i wanted to say for last because i love the idea of human space flight i'd love to be on mars i'm not sure i'll be able to make it someday but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cyber security on expanding human space flight operations i mean general this is your wheelhouse this is urine command putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go because they're not human but humans in space i mean you're starting to see the momentum the discussion uh people are are scratching that itch what's your take on that how do we see making this more possible well i i think we will see we will see uh commercial space tourism uh in the future i'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become but we'll we will see that and um part of uh i think the mission of the space force is going to be probably to again do what we're doing today is have really good awareness of what's going on the domain to uh to to to ensure that that is done safely and i think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety uh in in that uh arena um and uh um it is only a matter of time uh before we see um humans going even beyond the you know nasa has their plan the the artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a a space station there and that's going to be an exploration initiative but it is only a matter of time before we have um private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism but for economic activity and so it'll be really exciting to watch it would be really exciting and space force will be a part of it general roland i want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium i really appreciate it final uh comment i'd love to you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cyber security to space and we'll close it out we'll start with you roland yeah so i think that the biggest thing um i would like to try to get out of this you know from my own personal perspective is um creating that environment that allows um you know the the aerospace supply chain small businesses you know like ourselves be able to meet all the requirements um to protect um and safeguard our data but also um create a way that you know we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation um you know i'm looking forward um to comments and questions um you know from the audience um to really kind of help um you know you know basically drive to that next step general final thoughts the importance of cyber security to space i'll just i'll go back to how i started i think john and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined they're bffs and whoever has my job 50 years from now or 100 years from now i predict they're going to be saying the exact same thing cyber and space are are intertwined for good we will always need the cutting edge cyber security capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a as a society to protect our space capabilities and our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well general john shaw thank you very much roland cleo thank you very much for your great insight thank you to cal poly for putting this together i want to shout out to the team over there we couldn't be in person but we're doing a virtual remote event i'm john furrier with thecube and siliconangle here in silicon valley thanks for watching